UC-NRLF B ^ 5*^2 ^2a LIVERPOOL EXHIBITION of Housing & Town Planning TRANSACTIONS OF CONFERENCE 1914 I^IVERPOOL TOWN PLANNING AND HOUSING EXHIBITION 1914 TRANSACTIONS CONFERENCE Held March 9 to 13, 1914 at Liberty Buildings Liverpool Edited by S. D. Adshead and Patrick Abercrombie The university PRESS of LIVERPOOL L5- /f Liverpool Town Planning AND Housing Exhibition March 1914 President : The Right Hon. The Earl of Derby. Vice-President : Sir William H. Lever, Bart. President of the Conference : The Right Hon. The Lord Mayor of Liverpool. Hon. Treasurer: F. C. Bowring. Hon. Secretaries : Professor S. D. Adshead and Patrick Abercrombie. 296548 GENERAL COMMITTEE: C. J. Allen, R.B.A., Member of the Society of Sculptors, Vice- Principal of the Liverpool Municipal School of Art. R. H. Armstrong, Vice-Chairman of Liverpool Garden Suburb Tenants. The Right Rev. the Lord Bishop of Liverpool. Professor R. C. Bosanqtjet, Professor of Classical Archaeology, the University of Liverpool. A. E. Brockbank, President of the Liverpool Academy. J. A. Brodie, M.Inst. C.E., City Engineer, Liverpool. C. H. Brttnner. Alderman T. V. Burrows, J. P., Mayor of Wallasey. A. D. Cameron, Assistant Director of Education, Liverpool. Dr. Caton, Ex-Lord Mayor of Liverpool. F. C. D'Aeth, Director of Reports to the Liverpool Council of Voluntary Aid. Sir Alfred Dale, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Liverpool. E. R. DiBDiN, Curator of the Walker Art Gallery. H. Chaloner Dowdall, Barrister, Chancellor of the Diocese of Liverpool and Ex-Lord Mayor. R. Gladstone, Jun., Member of the School of Local History, Liverpool. H. Grayson, F.R. LB. A., President of the Liverpool Architectural Association. Austin Harford, Vice-Chairman of the Housing Committee,Liverpool City Council. Dr. Hope, Medical Officer of Health, Liverpool. James Hutt, Librarian of the Lyceum Library, Liverpool. A. E. Jacob, Chairman of Executive of Liverpool City Guild. Alderman R. Kelley. Colonel Kyffin-Taylor, M.P., Chairman of the Housing Committee, Liverpool City Council. J. G. Legge, Director of Education, Liverpool. Bryce Leicester. Alderman F. J. Leslie. F. J. Marquis, Warden of the University Settlement. Alderman R. R. Meade-King. James Moon, Mayor of Birkenhead, Director of Liverpool Garden Suburb Tenants. Max Muspratt, City Councillor, Liverpool. Alderman Sir Charles Petrie, Ex-Lord Mayor of Liverpool. E. R. Pickmere, Town Clerk, Liverpool. Councillor John Rafter, L.R.C.P., Mayor of Bootle. Miss E. Florence Rathbone, City Councillor, Liverpool. Edmund Rathbone. A. Lyle Rathbone, Vice-Chairman of the Health Committee, Liverpool City Council. Professor C. H. Reilly, F.R. LB. A., Professor of Architecture, the University of Liverpool. Colonel J. P. Reynolds, City Councillor, Liverpool. G. T. Shaw, Chief Librarian, Liverpool. T. Shelmerdine, City Surveyor, Liverpool. Canon Gibson Smith. •' I ' /;;.;; ; The Ven. Archdeacon Spooner! * * *' * '. .' Sydney Style, ,ChurqV, p. , Ebor House, Edge Lane, Stretf ord. Marquis, W. J., University Settlement, Nile Street, Liverpool. Marsh, H. P., Chairman Town Planning Committee, Sheffield. Massie, F., Tetley House, Wakefield. Mawson, Thomas, High Street House, Lancaster. McBeath, R. J., Marlborough Road, Sale. McIntosh, D. G., 43, Oxford Drive, Waterloo, Liverpool. McMillan, J., 53, Rice Lane, Egremont, Liscard, Cheshire. Mead, A. J., B.A., " Priory Nook," St. George's Mount, New Brighton. Meade, T. de Courcey, M.Inst.C.E. City Surveyor, Town HaU, Manchester. Meade-King, Miss, West Derby, Liverpool. Meade-King, R. R., West Derby, Liverpool. Mell, N., Chairman Hoyland Nether U.D.C., 1, West Street, Hoyland, nr Barnsley. Mills, W., " Stonelegh," HamUton Street, Hoole. Mole, Keartland, Rothwood, WeU Lane, Higher Bebington. Moon, James, Mayor of Birkenhead, Westwood, Eleanor Road, Bidston. Morgan, E. J., Borough Engineer, Town Hall, Bolton. Morris, T., 35, Walnut Street, Southport. Muirhead, Alderman W., 4, Windermere Terrace, Liverpool. Muspratt, CounciUor Max, The Grange, Fulwood Park, Liverpool. Nash, T. 0. C, City Surveyor, Birmingham. Nelson, C. H., 3, Mayfield Road, Wallasey, Cheshire. Nesbitt, D. a. S., 3, Beech Bank Avenue, Manor Road, Liscard. Newbold, CounciUor T. C, Municipal Offices, Bebington Lane, Derby. Newton, J., Warrington. NowiLL, J. S., Deputy Chairman Town Planning Committee, Sheffield. NuTTALL, J. B., Borough Surveyor, Hejnvood. O'Brien, J. J., 8, Alexandra Mount, Litherland. Oldershaw, John, M.D., Victoria Road, New Brighton, Cheshire. Owens, CounciUor J., Town HaU, Chester. 10 LIST OF MEMBERS— Continued. Parkinson, R., Chairman of Poulton-le-Fylde U.D.C., Queen's Square, Poulton-le- Fylde, nr. Preston. Parkinson, E. G., Claremont Road, Wallasey. Pa TON, Mrs. F. E., 7, Derby Road, Grassendale. Peace, E., Penkett Road, Liscard, Cheshire. Pearson, C, 5, Ennerdale Road, New Brighton. Petrie, Sir Charles, Kt., J.P., Ivy Lodge, Aigburth, Liverpool. Pemberton, J., 7, Fairfield Road, Stockton Heath, Warrington. Pennington, R., 2(5, Panton Road, Hoole. Pickering, J. S., Borough Engineer, Municipal Offices, Cheltenham. Pickles, G. H., Borough Engineer, Burnley Town Council. Pickles, Councillor, Chairman of Waterloo- with-Seaforth U.D.C., Town Hall, Waterloo, Liverpool. Pickmere, E. R., Town Clerk, Liverpool. Pidgeon, F., Clerk to Hazel Grove and Bramhall U.D.C. Platt, F. W., Borough Engineer, Town Hall, Salfo.d. Platt, S. S. , Borough Surveyor, Rochdale. Plunkett, a. , Assistant Surveyor, Council Office s, Bredbury and Romiley. Pool, F., Surveyor, Sefton, nr. Liverpool. Powell, H., Flint. Price, A. J., Surveyor, Council Offices, Lytham. QuiGLEY, A.G., Sub Curator, Liverpool Walker Art Gallery, St. Eia, Little Sutton, nr. Chester. Rafter, J., L.R.C.P., Mayor of Bootle, 338, Stanley Road, Bootle. Rankin, J. S., St. Michaels Mount, Liverpool. Rathbone, Councillor H. R., Lord Mayor of Liverpool, 35, Ullett Road, Liverpool. Rathbone, a. L., 3, Lord Street, Liverpool. Rathbone, Miss E. Florence, Greenbank, Liverpool. Rathbone, Edmund, Abercromby Square, Liverpool. Raven, H., Council Offices, Horsforth. Reece, a. Y., 54, Hamilton Street, Birkenhead. Reilly, Professor C. H. , University of Liverpool. Reney, a. E., Chairman Connah's Quay U.D.C, Marsh Cottage, Connah's Quay. Reney, T. J., Chairman of the Health Committee, Connah's Quay U.D.C, The Cottage, Connah's Quay. Reynolds, Colonel, J.P., Dove Park, Woolton, Liverpool. Richardson, T. H., Surveyor, Hemsworth R.D.C, Hemsworth, nr. Wakefield. Richmond, J. W., 14, Derby Place, Hoole, nr. Chester. RiCKARD, J., Town Hall, Nelson. Rider, Councillor J., Audley Road, Hendon. Robinson, T., 134, Derbyshire Lane, Sheffield. Roden, a. a., 17, Kinglake Road, Egremont, Cheshire. Rosbotham, R., Moor Croft, Town End, Ormskirk. RowT-AND, J., Chairman Pubhc Works Committee, Burton-on-Trent. Rylands, J., 96, Bidston Road, Birkenhead. Rymer, C. F., 2, Ingleby Road, Poulton. RuNTON, P. T., Architect, Victoria Chambers, Bowlalley Lane, Hull. Russell, Coimcillor R. J., 19, Bells Road, Birkenhead. Salisbury, The Rt. Hon. The Marquis of, 20 Arlington Street. London, S.W. Scott, F. F., Warren Drive, New Brighton. Sefton, the Right Hon. the Earl of, Croxteth Hall, Liverpool. Shackleton, W., Borough Engineer, Town Hall, Nelson. Sharp, Councillor G., Guildhall, York. Shaw, G. T., Chief Librarian, Liverpool. Shaw, J., 14, Brighton Street, Seacombe, Cheshire. Shawcross, H., Chairman of National Housing and Town Planning Council, 41, Russell Square, London, W.C. Shawfield, a.. Surveyor to the Woolton U.D.C. Shelmerdine, T., City Surveyor, Liverpool. Shennan, W. W., Surveyor to Wirral R.D.C, Moreton, nr. Birkenhead. Shepheard, T. F., Architect, Royal Liver Building, Liverpool. 11 LIST OF MEMBERS— Continued. Sherlock, C. A., 52, Rossett Road, Blundellsands, Liverpool. Sing, Alex. M., 7, Gambler Terrace, Liverpool. Sinclair, J. S., Borough Surveyor, Town Hall, Widnes. Sleave, G., Chairman of Highways and Town Planning Committee, Town Hall, Westhoughton. Smith, Alderman Bremner, Bryn Estyn, Oswestry. Smith, Councillor, B., 15, High Street, Rishton, Blackburn. Smith, Rev. Canon H. Gibson, M.A., the Vicarage, Allerton. Smith, T. H., Exchange, Honley. Solly, Councillor G. A., 1, Grosvenor Place, Claughton, Birkenhead. Spooner, Ven. G. H., M.A., the Rectory, Walton-on-the-Hill, Liverpool. Spurb, Frank W., City Engineer, Guildhall, York. Stafford, J., Blackburn. Stephen, N. , Mollington, Cheshire. Stilgoe, H. E., City Engineer and Surveyor, Birmingham. Storey, P. , Atherton Street, New Brighton. Stubbs, W., Borough Engineer, Blackburn. Style, Sydney, Church of Humanity, 69, Hope Street, Liverpool SwANwiCK, B., 13, Clarendon Road, Seacombe, Cheshire. SwiNTON, John, Surveyor Runcorn R.D.C., 19, Bedford Street, Stockton Heath, Warrington. Taskbr, R. G., Sandy Lane, Skelmersdale. Taylor, H. W. , Cathedral Buildings, Dean Street, Newcastle-on-Tyne. Taylor, Lawson, Town Clerk, Wrexham. Thomas, H. Smith, Clerk, Exchange, Honley. Thomas, Peregrine, Town Clerk, Town Hall, Burnley. Thomson, J., City Engineer, Dundee. Thornely, a., Architect, Royal Liver Building, Liverpool. Thornley, Dr. , 291-293, HaUiwell Road, Bolton. Thornely, E., 14, Castle Street, Liverpool. Tickle, J. W., Council Offices, Bispham, Blackpool. Tinker, G. H., Wooldale, Thornsbridge, Huddersfield. Travers, W. H., Borough Engineer and Surveyor, 18, Falkland Road, Egremont. TxjRTON, F. T. , Deputy Surveyor, Liverpool. TuNNiCLiFF, P. J., 43, St. Paul's Road, Seacombe. TwEMLOW, J. A.. Secretary of the School of Local History, Liverpool. Tyrer, W. H., Town Clerk, Town Clerk's Office, Wigan. Tyson, Clerk to Dalton-in-Furness U.D.C., Town Hall, Dalton-in-Furness. Qttinn, Augustine, " The Beeches," Sea View Road, Liscard. Unsworth, W., " Newstead," 19, Moss Lane, Aintree, Liverpool. Unwin, Raymond, "Wyldes," North End, Hampstead, N.W. Urmson, James, 31, Kingsway, Wallasey. Vivian, Henry, 6, Bloomsbury Square, London. Wainwright, Alderman, Gore Lodge, Gorton, Manchester. Walker, T. C, 19, Inman Road, Litherland. Wall, Councillor A., Town Hall, Chester. Wallis, F. G., Architect, 85, Lord Street, Liverpool. Ward, J., Borough Surveyor, Municipal Offices, Bebington Lane, Derby. W^EEKES, W. Barnett, Municipal Offices, Liverpool. Welburn, W., Borough Surveyor, Town Hall, Middleton, Manchester. Welding, Councillor, Borough Surveyor, Town Hall, Widnes. Welsh, J., Councillor, Town Hall, Stockport. Western, T., Batley. Whalley, p.. Surveyor, Chorley R.D.C., 14, New Market Street, Chorley. Whitley, J. H., Halifax. Whittaker, W., Chairman Burnley Town Council. Whittle, J. Lyon, Town Clerk, Warrington. WiGHAM, S., National Buildings, St. Mary's Parsonage, Manchester. WiKE, C. F., Engineer and City Surveyor, Town Hall, Sheffield. Wild, G. H., Council Offices, Littleborough, nr. Manchester. 12 LIST OF MEMBERS— 6o«//«K^^. Wilding, J., Cartmell Road, St. Annes-on-Sea. Wilding, J., Surveyor and Water Engineer, Town Hall, Runcorn. Williams, Alderman C. E., Mayor of Oswestry, Bryntirion, Oswestry. Williams, F., Secretary Garden Suburb, Liverpool. Wilson, Alderman J. R., 5, Stanley Grove, Longsight, Manchester. Wilson, J. W., Surveyor, Bolton-upon-Dearne. Wise, G., 3, Swanston Avenue, Walton. Wolfenden, R. J., Borough Engineer, Bootle. Wood, H. C, Brorafield Terrace, Tadcaster. WooDROFFE, C. J., "Mere Bank," The Promenade, Liscard. Wright, J. A., Surveyor, Council Offices, Gt. Crosby, Liverpool. Wright, William, Chairman of Health Committee, 26, Regent Road, Morecambe. Wrigley, a., " Westbourne," Penkett Road, Liscard. Wynn, Dr. , Wigan. Yates, F. S., Surveyor to Waterloo-with-Seaforth U.D.C., Town Hall, Waterloo, Liverpool. Yewcombe, B. S., Bewsey Chambers, Warrington. 13 LIVERPOOL TOWN PLANNING AND HOUSING EXHIBITION AND CONFERENCE INTRODUCTION THE idea of holding an exhibition of Town Planning and Housing originated in a suggestion of Sir William Lever so long ago as the year 1911. In the preceding year the Royal Institute of British Architects had held their memorable exhibition and conference, and it was felt that it would be of great value to Liverpool if a similar exhibition was attempted and carried out in a really popular way. At a meeting at the Town Hall held in December, 1911, with Lord Derby in the chair, it was proposed to hold the exhibition in the Art Gallery, and a committee was formed to raise the necessary funds and make arrangements, but owing to the difficulty of working in with the regular picture exhibitions, and from other unforeseen causes, the Committee were forced to abandon their original intention of holding the exhibition here. How- ever, by the generous offer by the University of Liverpool of the loan of the large galleries at Liberty Buildings, an admirable setting for the exhibition was obtained in the home of the University School of Architecture and Department of Civic Design, and thus the exhibition and conference were held in March, 1914, with great success. The opening ceremony was performed by the Marquis of Salisbury on March 7th, and much of the subsequent success of the exhibition must be attributed to his kind action and to the inspiring address which he delivered on this occasion, in the course of which he emphasized the great need for friendly co- operation between landowners, ratepayers, and municipal officials. A vote of thanks was proposed by Mr. Henry Vivian, chairman of the Co-partnership Tenants, Limited. On the evening of the same day a public dinner was held at the Adelphi Hotel, at which some 80 people were present, and Mr. Thomas Adams, of the Local Government Board, was in the chair. Speeches were delivered by the Mayors of Birkenhead, Southport, and Bootle ; Mr. Jacob (Chairman of the City Guild), Mr. Stilgoe (City Engineer of Birmingham), and Mr. Hastwell Grayson (President of the Liverpool Architectural Society). The conference, of which Mr. Sydney Kelly, F.S.I. , was hon. secretary, was arranged to take place during the first week of 14 the exhibition, and the Lord Mayor of Liverpool, who gave a luncheon at the Town Hall and opened the conference proceed- ings, by this official recognition, lent additional weight to its deliberations. It was attended by 356 members, and, as will be seen from the programme, the 10 sessions were arranged to cover every aspect of the subject, with the exception of the purely monumental and architectural, which were not dealt with. No formal papers were read, but the Chairman intro- duced the subjects which had been set down for discussion under separate headings, and replied to the questions which were asked by members. The first three days were devoted to Town Planning, and the two last to Housing. On Tuesday afternoon, Mr. de Courcy Meade was unfortu- nately unable to be present, his place being taken by Mr. Davidge, kindly assisted by Mr. Wike, the city engineer of Sheffield. On the Friday, also, Mr. Austin Harford could not take the chair, but his place was filled up by Mr. Turton, deputy surveyor of Liverpool, the official responsible for the Liverpool housing schemes. The Committee are pleased to be able to report that the cost of the exhibition was covered by the money subscribed, and that it was not necessary to call upon the guarantors for their promised support. 15 THE EXHIBITION THE exhibition, which occupied the large ground-floor room and three upstairs galleries in Liberty Buildings, was divided into four principal sections. The central part of the large downstairs gallery was devoted to a survey of Liverpool, and here was got together perhaps the most interest- ing collection of historic plans of Liverpool that has yet been made, in addition to a valuable collection of old engravings, prints, and water colours by Herdman. Liverpool at the present day was illustrated by photographs and drawings of Queen's Drive, and the future was suggested by several schemes for the improving of the Pier Head, a quarter at the back of the Adelphi Hotel, and the area of land between St. George's Hall and Dale Street. The two ends of this room presented an instructive contrast, one being devoted purely to housing, and the other to the monumental aspects of Town Planning. Under the housing section was a very complete resume of the work of the Co-partnership Tenants, Ltd., hung and exhibited by themselves, a large model of Port Sunlight, which had been specially prepared for the exhibition, a model of part of Bourn- ville, and a large scale model of a block of the Liverpool Cor- poration tenements ; the Bevington Street area was also shown by a complete set of drawings. Urban housing was further illustrated by Professor Adshead's reconstructed areas at Kennington. In the monumental section at the other end were shown Mr. Thomson's scheme for the laying-out of reclaimed lands at Dundee, Mr. Mawson's designs for Vancouver, Sas- katchewan, and the complete drawings of his Bolton remodel- ling projects ; Mr. Bradshaw's successful designs for the first Roman scholarship in architecture, the subject of which was " Civic Centre in a Great City," and many others. The long gallery upstairs was devoted to a comparative and historical section. In the first a notable feature was a group of plans representing the very last tendencies of the movement in Germany, a complete historical survey of Paris, and a pictorial presentment of Brussels and Vienna. The historic section was fortunate in having lent to it the series of plans of ancient cities from Professor Haverfield's recent book, some magnificent restorations lent by the Liverpool School of Archaeology, a series of Italian towns illustrating the growth of fortifications, and an interesting group of old plans of Flemish cities, the latter kindly lent by Mr. Raymond Unwin. There was also an historical survey of London, showing its growth from the time of the great fire, a most striking map being one lent by Mr. Davidge, showing superimposed on the present plan, the London of 100 years ago. This exhibit, simple 16 though it sounds, was probably the most impressive advocate for Town Planning in the whole exhibition. In the next gallery, which was devoted to English Town Planning, official and unofficial, were shown Letch worth and the principal garden villages and suburbs both in plans and by means of large photographs. What undoubtedly to the borough engineer was the most valuable feature of the exhibi- tion was a complete set of maps of the East Birmingham and the Ruislip-Northwood Town Planning schemes. Other Town Planning schemes were also illustrated by single maps so that it was possible to study and compare different schemes under the Town Planning Act. The last gallery was devoted to Liverpool and district Town Planning schemes, and these to the local visitors to the exhibition formed a very impressive show, including as they did some 20,000 acres on the other side of the Mersey. From this description it may be gathered that the exhibition, though not very large in size, was wide in scope, particularly when it is stated that in the comparative section the following countries were represented : France, Germany, Austria, Bel- gium, Italy, Sweden, and the United States of America. The thanks of the Committee are due to the many people who helped both by the loan of exhibits and co-operation in arranging and hanging ; the Corporation of Liverpool, Mr. E. Pickmere (the Town Clerk of Liverpool), Mr. G. T. Shaw (the City Librarian), Mr. Robert Gladstone, Jun., Mr. Brodie (City Engineer, Liverpool), for the local exhibit ; and among many others Mr. Stilgoe (City Engineer of Birmingham), Mr. Abbott (Clerk to the Ruislip-Northwood U.D.C.), Mr. Culpin (of the Town Planning and Garden City Association), Mr. Litchfield (of the Co-partnership Tenants), and Mr. Thomas Adams (of the Local Government Board). To the Sandon Studios Society the thanks of the Committee are also due for their kindness in letting the long galleries in addition to those provided by the University of Liverpool. 17 Summary of Speech Delivered by the Right Hon. the Marquis of Salisbury At the Opening of the Exhibition on March 7th, 1914. Lord Salisbury, in declaring the exhibition open, expressed his sense of the greatness of the Town Planning and Housing movement, which he compared in importance and power to the Renaissance of the 15th and 16th centuries. He said the conscience of the nation had been awakened to the fact that the aggregation of population in the great industrial and com- mercial centres had led to moral and social evils which were deep-seated, and called for a remedy. Not only did philan- thropists desire some change, but experts in the public health said there must be a change, and now owing to the progress of engineering and the allied sciences the nation was able to make the change requisite. Some present who had interested themselves in Town Planning on a rural area knew that the evils of which he had just spoken could be corrected by means of the Garden City movement. The most difficult part of the problem was what to do with the congested parts of the typical old city, having acres and acres of slums. Fortu- nately they had awakened to the fact that the evils which followed upon the industrial rise of this country must be corrected at all costs. They had all felt was it necessary that the poor in our great cities should live under the conditions they saw around them — surroundings which militated against the moral and physical health of the children for the rest of their lives. If we were to maintain the vigour of the race, something must be done to our towns. The population in the towns did not increase, except from the inflow from the country. But for the increment from the country the town populace would die away. This was an unnatural state of affairs, what they wanted was better urban conditions, and they must have the strength of mind to produce them. Now the problem was faced they had a lot of leeway to make up. Some of them engaged in the planning of a new town knew what were con- 18 ditions which had created the evils of which he had spoken. Their remedy was the Garden City movement. That was a very important movement which depended essentially upon allowing sufficient speice round the dwellings so as to preserve to some extent the hygienic conditions and amenities of the country life. What made this possible was the improvement of means of communication. The most difficult part of the problem was what to do with the city itself. He was not speaking of the business parts, but of the acres of slums for which, he supposed, he and his ancestors must take a share of the responsibUity. He was not blaming anyone but the system under which the cities were erected, and in order to solve these problems they wanted aU the help they could get. They wanted to avoid friction as much as possible. They wanted the co-operation and assistance of everybody, and the first note to the solution of the Town Planning problem was co-operation. They must not allow private rights to stand in the way of public advantage. Wliere persons were so dunderheaded as to stand in the way on private rights, their views should be over-ridden. Nor was he urging them to omit State action altogether. Parliament itself could do a considerable amount directly. They in Liver- pool had done a great deal. Not only had they enormously improved their means of communication, but they had entered upon the difficult problem of erecting dwellings for the poor. In this work, private enterprise, together with public support and under public control, was the formula under which pro- gress was most likely to be made. Private enterprise acted with a rapidity which was not possible under pubUc enterprise. The action of a corporation, however weU disposed, must necessarily be slow, and must be a little affected by red tape, which prevented them doing work on the same scale and with the same efficiency as private enterprise. What they must look to was private enterprise and public support. AVhere there was a real effort being made by private enterprise to improve the community the public portion ought to help it as far as possible. Then there were bye-laws. There were good bye-laws, but there were also some bad bye-laws. The real thing was that the bye-laws should not be too wooden. They should never allow a mere bye-law to stand in the way of substantial progress. ^Vllat would be the result of close co-operation between private and public enterprise ? They had got there a progressive municipal authority anxious to do what it could to improve the city. In consequence people were rising to the invitation and coming forward to do what they could, and the more they encouraged them the more they would do. 19 What was true of Liverpool was true of the country as a whole. He was very much interested in housing in Liverpool, and also in the countryside. Some of his friends told him they could not build a cottage under £250 or £300. He had proved they could build a first-rate cottage for £200, a very nice cottage for £150, and he was now absolutely building a very adequate one for £130. It was because he had seen difficulties overcome that he was confident they could solve this problem of house planning. They wanted faith, which would remove mountains of ignorance and prejudice. They wanted hope, which looked forward to a successful future, and they wanted that large sympathy between public authori- ties and private owners and between municipal reformers and philanthropists, and above all sympathy between rich and poor with which anything was possible, which was, in fact, that great charity with which they might confidently rely upon success. 20 TRANSACTIONS OF CONFERENCE 21 Editorial Note THE Editors take this opportunity of thanking the Chairmen of the sessions of the conference for the time and trouble which they have taken in correcting the reports, not only of their opening remarks, but of the discussions which followed. Their thanks are also due to Mr. Sydney Kelly, secretary of the conference, who kindly undertook the correction of the third session owing to the absence of Mr. Davidge, in Australia. The Editors have attempted to reproduce the discussions in as nearly verbatim a form as possible, as they felt that the value of the conference consisted largely in the free expression of personal opinions which resulted from the absence of formal papers. The difficulties of such verbatim reporting are mani- fest, and as it is impossible to submit to every delegate a proof of his remarks, they hereby apologise for any inaccuracies which may be found. If, however, any delegate is reported as making a statement which is contrary to his actual opinion, the Editors will be obliged for a correction of such misstatement, and are ready to publish it in the next number of the " Town Planning Review." It will be noticed that several of the questions were put by delegates who did not give their names ; as in most cases these questions were a means of extracting some information from the chairmen, it was felt that the anonymity of the interrogator was not a serious drawback. The Editors regret that it has been impossible to reproduce all the maps and plans referred to during the discussions. 22 SUMMARY OF CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS OPENING CEREMONY, Monday, March 9th, at 3 p.in. Page Speech by the Lord Mayor of Liverpool (Coun- cillor Herbert Rathbone) . . . . . . . . 28 PART I.— TOWN PLANNING. FIRST SESSION, Monday, March 9th, at 3-30 p.m. Roads in Relation to Town Planning . . . . . 31 Chairman: J. A. Brodie, M.Inst.C.E,, City Engineer, Liverpool. Questions discussed. 1. The Modern Use of Main Traffic Routes. 2. The Importance of Ring Roads. 3. The Desirability of Providing Separate Routes for Trams and Rapid Motor Traffic. 4. The Extent to which Main Roads should be State Supported or Controlled. 5. The Dependence of Town Planning Schemes on Main Road Systems. 6. Difficulties of Constructing New Main Roads under Present Conditions of Ownership and Adminis- tration. 7. Reduced Construction, Grass Borders, and Tree Planting. SECOND SESSION, Monday, March 9th, at 7-30 p.m. Town Planning Schemes at Birmingham . . . . 46 Chairman : H. E. Stilgoe, M.Inst.C.E., City Engineer, Birmingham. Questions discussed. 1 . Main Traffic Routes in Relation to the Whole City. 2. Widths and Arrangements of Roads. 3. The Land Unit, an essential Principle in the Birmingham Scheme. 23 SUMMARY of CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS— Co«//««^i. Page 4. Powers Contained in Scheme for Controlling Development of Unit. 5. Allocation of Areas for Special Purposes. 6. Acquirement of Open Spaces by Purchase or Otherwise. 7. Practical Working of Schemes Since their Approval. 8. New Procedure Regulations : the Advantages of the Amendments contained therein. THIRD SESSION, Tuesday, March lOth, at 3 p.m. Town Planning Under the Act, 1909 62 Chairman: W. R. Davidge, F.S.I., A.R.I.B.A., Assoc. M. Inst. C.E., District Surveyor, Lewisham. Questions discussed. 1. General Application of Town Planning Act in Reference to Existing Bye-laws. 2. Effect of the Town Planning Act on Building Operations. 3. Effect of the Town Planning Act on the Price of Land. 4. Application of the Town Planning Act considered in conjunction with Tramway Extension. 5. Town Planning Act and City Extension. 6. Town Planning Act and Municipal Land Purchase. FOURTH SESSION.— Tuesday, March lOth, at 7-30 p.m. Legal Issues under the Town Planning Act . . . . 76 Chairman : H. Chaloner Dowdall, B.C.L., Barrister- at-Law. Questions discussed. 1. The Application of the Act to Dilapidated or Badly-developed Areas. 2. Public Control of Plans and Elevations. 3. The Practical Working of the Betterment Clauses. 24 SUMMARY of CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS— Co«//««^^. Page 4. To what extent, if any, might the Procedure Regu- lations with advantage be simpHfied ; with special reference to their legal competence. 5. The Need for some General Provisions. 6. A Comparison of Special Provisions of Schemes already approved. FIFTH SESSION, Wednesday, March Uth, at 3 p.m. Town Planning under the Act, 1909 84 Chairman : Raymond Unwin, F.R.I.B.A. Questions discussed. 1. Need for Further Legislation for dealing with Existing Towns, or amending the Town Planning Act. 2. The Town Planning Act and its Effect on Road Grading. 3. The Importance of Preserving Open Spaces. 4. Site Planning, and its Effect on Road Planning. 5. Practical Experience in New Methods at Letchworth. 6. Practical Experience in New Methods at Hampstead. SIXTH SESSION, Wednesday, March Uth, at 7-30 p.m. Town Planning Scheme at Ruislip-Northwood . . lOO Chairtnan : Edmund R. Abbott, Clerk to the Ruishp- Northwood U.D.C. Questions discussed. 1. The Cost of preparation of a Town Planning Scheme. 2. Effect of Scheme on the Attitude and Interests of Owners involved. 3. Second Stage of Procedure : Apparent Difficulties, and How to overcome them. 4. To what Extent should a Scheme be made Pubhc, and at what Stage ? 25 SUMMARY of CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS— Co«/;««^^. 5. Experiences in the Drafting of Special Provisions for Scheme. 6. The Best Method to Adopt with Regard to Limi- tation of Buildings. PART II.— HOUSING. SEVENTH SESSION, Thursday, March 12th, at 3 p.m. Urban Housing . . . . . . . . . . . . 116 Chairman : F. T. Turton, Deputy Surveyor, Liverpool. Questions discussed. 1. Impossibility of Removing Slum Dwellers into the Outskirts. 2. Necessity for every Corporation to Embark on Municipal Housing Schemes for the Poorer Working Classes. 3. The Necessity of Providing Housing Accommoda- tion in close proximity to a Factory or Dock Area. 4. The Permissible Density per Acre of Urban Housing. 5. Tenements a Necessity. 6. Possibility for Playground and Amenities in Urban Areas, EIGHTH SESSION, Thursday, March 12th, at 7-30 p.m. Suburban and Rural Housing.. .. .. ..130 Chairman : Percy T. Runton, A.R.I.B.A., Architect of Hull Garden Suburb. Questions discussed. 1. Relative Value of Bungalow, Group and Semi- detached. 2. Use of a Backyard and Garden. 3. To what Extent can Construction and Features be Standardised in Property ? 4. Economic Methods of Construction, and their Relation to Upkeep. 26 SUMMARY of CONFERENCE PROCEEDINGS— Co«//««^^. Page 5. The Need for the Front Parlour : the 3-Bedroom Minimum. 6. The Use of the Scullery. 7. Hot Water in the Cottage. 8. The Back Passage and Dust Removal. 9. The Effect if Rural Housing is done Officially. 10. The Use of Concrete Construction. NINTH SESSION, Friday, March 13th, at 3 p.m. The Garden Suburb 147 Chairman : Ewart G. Culpin, Secretary of the Garden Cities and Town Planning Association. Questions discussed. 1. Progress of the Garden Suburb Movement. 2. Garden Suburb, the Suburb of the Future. 3. Town Planning Schemes and their relation to the Garden Suburb Movement. 4. Garden Suburb Architect and the Speculative Builder. 5. The Value of Public-utihty Building Societies in Estate Development : their Influence in Germany. 6. Housing Problems in America. TENTH SESSION, Friday, March 13th, at 7-30 p.m. The Co-partnership System of Housing . . . . 157 Chairman : Henry Vivian, Chairman of Co-partnership Tenants, Ltd. Questions discussed. 1. The Experience of Co-partnership Methods. 2. The Interest of the Tenant-investor. 3. Financial Basis of a Co-partnership Scheme. 4. The Advantages of a Town Planning Scheme in the Development of a Co-partnership Estate. 5. Need for Greater Elasticity in the Building Bye-laws. 27 Speech Delivered by the Lord Mayor of Liverpool Councillor Herbert Rathbone At the Opening of the Conference on March 9th. Ladies and Gentlemen, — I am only going to occupy this position for a very short time to-day. My pleasing duty is to offer you a very hearty welcome and to express the hope that your deliberations will be useful and that they will be attended by some practical result. The necessity of what you are doing I think everyone has fully appreciated. I only regret one thing, and that is, that your conference instead of meeting to- day did not meet 50 years ago. If it had, and if a plan of Liverpool had been made 50 years ago, it is impossible to realise what an enormous improvement would have been brought about in this city. I was just now talking to Mr. Brodie and comparing our recollections of the district in which I live. I myself can very well remember Princes Road when there were only market gardens all down one side, and there were practi- cally speaking no houses until you came to the end of where the Greek church now stands, and I can remember perfectly well standing on Parliament Fields, a wide open space on the east side where an open-air circus with four-horse Roman chariot races found ample accommodation. Then in Smithdown Road there were no houses at all, either south of Lodge Lane or east of Tunnel Road, only beautiful green fields and trees, and the River Jordan ran through their midst. These are all covered now with small property equally dirty and unsightly, and that will give you some indication of the rapidity with which a city like Liverpool develops, because what has taken place here has taken place all round the city, and the development has not stopped — it is still going on rapidly. I should like to-day to make one plea, and it is that facilities should as far as possible be given for the addition of small gardens to each cottage. I have a great belief in small gardens. I have experienced their advantage myself. If it is only a smaU plot it attaches one to the house. As soon as you put a small amount of your personal effort into it you feel in an entirely different way to the house in which you live — ^you get pride in 28 your house and pride in the district in which you live. What happens in Liverpool is a man takes a small house, occupies it until it becomes dirty, and then instead of doing anything to improve it he moves on to another, and his place is taken by another tenant a little less desirable. He moves on and another man, still less desirable, comes in until, as I have said before, our great cities might be likened to one of those old trees which go on growing in girth and at the same time are becoming rotten in the centre. I do not think we will solve the problem by wide streets, and I should like to see besides wide streets, some streets that are comparatively speaking, narrow, but in which space is given for use as gardens by the tenants of the houses. I think in that way you may get a more satisfactory population, which is the main thing we have in view. My duty is now at an end, and I will make room for Mr. Brodie who is to take the chair at your first session. 29 \ - " ^^ ■ r-":^ N. •S l%l > • - t ....> V \ g-< 1 I'i f J O 1 g \A O t-s. to 7 ''i S a i 1 - Cf ' / yII ''^ »- "^t^o L ^ P o ir- 1 ^o < 5-. w ^ i 1 m \ 1 1 \ 'H" \ U ^ (O A M li «J < LLl z2 Q- >< "'- '^ m o 5 1 "in o< Q UJ ' i Oct •• «..^ - :r Hd 03 } ^ - H- >- ^^ / \ %% t S 1^^ o ^ \ ^ J iC o 5- 1 M 1 f -_«==• V ? w j- 1 V i ' y > r \ \ J § cS FIRST SESSION ROADS IN RELATION TO TOWN PLANNING Monday, March 9th Afternoon at 3-0 Chairman : J. A. BRODIE, M.I.C.E., City Engineer, Liverpool. Questions.— 1. The modern use of Main Traffic Routes. 2. The importance of Ring Roads. 3. The desirability of 'providing separate routes for Trams and Rapid Motor Traffic. 4. The extent to which Main Roads should he State supported or controlled. 5. The dependence of Town Planning schemes on Main Road systems. 6. Difficulties of constructing new Main Roads under present conditions of ownership and administration. 7. Reduced construction, grass borders and tree planting. Mr. Brodie. — Our programme for to-day's discussion is entitled " Roads in Relation to Town Planning," and the detailed headings in the syUabus give the points to which perhaps our principal attention should be directed. Most of these refer only to the main traffic routes, which, though few in number as compared with the smaller and narrower roads and streets, are generally considered as likely to require careful attention in planning, and also to be constructed in advance of the laying-out in detail of the various areas. If the main roads are properly designed and laid out it will be possible to give much greater freedom to the person responsible for the detail lay-out of the individual areas after- wards, and I think it will be found that in this country it will not be necessary to provide general plans showing the complete details of lay-out as has been customary in some of the plans on the Continent. Main traffic routes, at any rate locally, are of recent mtro- duction. It is recorded that at the commencement of the 18th century no road for wheeled vehicles into this town existed, though a pack-horse route came in through Prescot by way of our present London Road, and it may interest some of those present to hear that at the present time part of this old pack-horse route is being widened to 120 feet along Broad Green Road, just beyond the line of Queen's Drive. In 1768, however, fairly good approach roads or lanes are shown on the plans of this district, which practically represent the main approaches to the town at the present time. There is in existence an old plan which practically re- presents the original skeleton of the planning scheme of Liverpool at the present time. Old main roads have been 31 widened from time to time and areas developed. I mention this point because it agrees with my own particular view as to how town-planning areas should be dealt with. If the motor and heavy traffic continues to increase, the alternative of providing a limited number of new wide main roads leading down to the congested central area wiU have to be considered. The next point in our programme is the " Provision of Ring Roads or Routes Round the City," and the map of Liverpool to-day shows pretty clearly what the present idea of ring roads may be. Provision should be made to aUow all traffic not requiring to go through the central area to pass round clear of this congested centre, and the ring road or by-pass road should, where possible, be carried through unbuilt areas, as this will generally be found to best meet the require- ments. In Liverpool, Queen's Drive is a road of this type, and though not yet quite completed throughout, some portions of it are largely used, especially by motors and motor-wagons from Prescot Road — ^which is our main entrance from the manufacturing districts — through in the direction of the Northern Docks. It is hardly likely that ring roads will ever be equal in importance from the purely traffic point of view when compared with the chief radial roads, but on the other hand they are likely to be of greater value as open-air spaces and exercise grounds, and must, therefore, play an important part in Town Planning schemes. In this country the immense value and importance of very wide roads or wide portions of roads in the nature of elongated parks is not fully appreciated. Large parks and recreation grounds are also valuable, but it should not be forgotten that the younger children seldom reach parks and open spaces which are at a considerable distance from their homes. Most of you who have seen the wide roads of the Continental towns will know that they are much used by people as open spaces. The lady of the house brings down her children to a seat and works at sewing, &c., while the children play around, and after all we, as Town Planners, if we are to be really success- ful, must see that it is possible to rear healthy children within our large towns. Another subject for discussion is " The Desirability of providing Separate Routes for Trams and Rapid Motor Traffic." I suppose the word " routes " should really have been " tracks," because it is a question of separate tracks rather than of separate routes. It is a particularly interesting subject at the present time. We in Liverpool have now had considerable experience with the usual formation of streets in which the whole surface of the carriageway is used in common 32 by all classes of traffic, and up to the present time they may be said to have fairly met the requirements. Speed is, however, becoming gradually a matter of greater importance. Since the coming of the motor-car many attempts have been made to reduce speeds, but to-day it may be fairly said that motors and motor speeds have come to stay. The motor 'bus with its superior average speed will have the inevitable effect of speeding up the tramcar, and in my view the tramcar will respond with a specially fenced-off track in the roadway, along which it can travel at a speed in advance of anything likely to be legalised on a roadway used in common by general traffic. A length of such a roadway has recently been authorised and is being constructed in Liverpool, land having been acquired and fences set back to a total width of 120 feet. The present narrow carriageway will be retained. The tramways will be laid on sleepers in grass at a cost of £3,000 per mile instead of £6,000 per mile. A duplicate narrow carriageway will, when required by the development of the land alongside the road, be provided. The cost of the necessary land for widening to 120 feet — which does not exceed 5s. per yard on the average — and the total cost of construction will not be in excess of what would have been required to finish an 80-feet road with tramways completed in paving throughout. I will now show you a section of this wide road. I think many of you are surveyors to authorities and you will recognise that you can reduce cost of construction of tramways from £6,000 per mile to £3,000 per mile of single track if laid on grass ; and if you are fortunate enough to be able to induce the tramway authority to give you that £3,000 for the widening of the road you will see how it comes about that a road 1 20 feet wide can be made, as shown on the section exhibited. In that way a cheap and safe route could be constructed which is likely to meet all reasonable requirements in the future. I have already said something with regard to my view of wide roads. Some of you who were here on Saturday heard the statement made that too much attention is paid to wide roads. If you are to carry people quickly from the centre of the town to the areas which are to be Town Planned my view is that you must provide a much quicker method of communication — tram or motor 'bus — than you have at present. A motor-car owner can leave his house 4 miles away and be inside his office within 15 minutes. If he walks to the tramcar, comes in by tramcar, and walks to his office the minimum time required is about 40 minutes. I do not see why such a long time should continue to be taken. With narrow roads you cannot safely increase the speed much, and, therefore, my view is that you must have greater speed 33 in the future, and if you have speed you must have safety, which cannot, in my opinion, be given without width of road surface. Another question is the financial aspect of acquiring the land for wide roads. That is without doubt a difficulty. You cannot expect an owner of land who wishes to be left alone to receive you very cordially. But at the same time, as Lord Salisbury said the other day, something of the sort must be done, and taken on the whole if the work of pushing through main roads is kept to the districts where development is likely to take place, my experience is that owners will meet you in a pretty reasonable sort of way because they have their own point of view and interests to bear in mind also. It is interest- ing to me to mention that one owner with whom we had some difference of opinion on the subject of wide roads originally, is, after his experience in Liverpool, at the present time spending a very large amount in constructing roads on the other side of the water, even wider than anything Liverpool has yet proposed. I think that is very creditable, not only to him but also to the gentlemen advising him, and I am glad to see them present this afternoon. The great difficulty will probably be the formation of wide roads through the districts in the areas surrounding the large towns. The cost of construction and the cost of widening will be too heavy a charge on small local authorities. How it is to be met if the small authority is to remain separate is I think a serious difficulty. I am sorry to have kept you so long, but the subject is an interesting one, and I hope that some of the experienced gentlemen I see present will give us the benefit of their knowledge. Mr. H. E. Stilgoe (City Engineer, Birmingham). — We must all be interested in the foresight which Liverpool has shown in providing those facilities for transit which are so necessary. We look upon these things perhaps from different points of view, all converging to one common object. Mr. Brodie has mentioned the question of arterial roads and he has referred to the old pathway which like the ancient footpaths about our districts were generally absorbed by arterial roads because they formed the best line of route. Unfortunately those who have gone before have allowed building to be made right up to the sides of our roads and so restricted them, because the expense of widening them at the present time and removing costly buildings is almost beyond consideration, therefore if the price is too great to enable us to widen, we have to seek other ways. Now, I said a moment ago we look on things from different points of view when the subject is mentioned of the removal of people from congested areas ; people at once say you must not move people from their work, but that is not 34 T -«> 1 1 o fc-. . 1 1 i « tu u; «p , 5 ? o> 1 1 1 1 S2 (0 ---i- ' 1 4 ;: r i-t o « o 4 Q L _1 O o Q. QC LJ > 3$ the only way of looking at it, for example, if one looks at this from an economic point of view alone, we know that we can let these dwellings at 5s. or 6s. a week rent ; but is it not better to remove these buildings and occupy the space with warehouses or factories or whatever may be useful to the particular class of industry and by means of rapid transit take the people to healthy surroundings ? Look at the wretched conditions of these crowded urban areas ; you see women sitting on doorways or perhaps going for some solace elsewhere and the children brought up in wretchedness, miser- able creatures with no chance of fresh air. Sweep away that class of dwelling, use the space for industrial purposes, take your people out by cheap means of transit and house them where they can breathe fresh air and bring up children better. Now then the arterial road is going to help you to that better perhaps than anything else. As Mr. Brodie says, it is quite unnecessary to put down costly tramways in the centre of the street. You can lay it on your new arterial roads on margins provided at the side. You can run it much more quickly with much less noise and nuisance to people who live on the tramway routes. I am certain of this, we must put out of our minds all small matters and must be prepared to sacrifice at the moment money which appears somewhat large. If those who had gone before us had had more forethought we should have been reaping to-day the advantages which we hope to offer to those of the future. I won't detain you because I shall have something to say this evening, but I do wish this meeting to understand the great necessity of that work which Mr. Brodie is labouring for, the provision of quick means of transit on new arterial roads laid out so that the residents in the outer districts may enjoy better air and better general surroundings. Mr. A. E. Jacob (Liverpool). — I have some hesitation in speaking in the presence of so many experts, but this is largely a business question, the question of main roads. I notice the first heading is " The Importance of Main Traffic Routes.'* Mr. Brodie has alluded to the very great increase of motor traffic in the north, not only for passenger and pleasure pur- poses, but for goods, and I think that if Liverpool is to mamtain its position as a great port, and a cheap port, that attention to the main routes must be given because of the cost of railway transit ; owing to the very heavy railway charges, which are likely to go up rather than down, this means will be prohibitive in future compared with transit by motor. Already motors are commg in from cotton centres and bringing in finished products, not only to Manchester but to Liverpool, and I think it is necessary for the future and prosperity of the port to encourage this ; accordingly it is of essential importance to 36 have wide main roads and ring thoroughfares. I know how immensely advantageous it is instead of getting into the closer streets if you can circulate round to the very point you want to strike into in the centre of the town. I do not see why we should not have much better main roads to Manchester, Preston, Wigan, and towns around. I think as a business community it is absolutely essential to our business development. Think of all the charges saved in getting goods from steamer to mill and mill to steamer. It must be an enormous saving. The planting of these roads with trees will give shelter and shade to the children sitting out there. I had the privilege of a municipal tour in Germany with Mr. Brodie, and we were immensely struck at Frankfurt and Coin with the main arteries. Cologne, once a congested mediaeval town with winding streets, is now a city of splendid thoroughfares. Frankfurt has developed enormously. There was a law passed by one of the burgomasters of Frankfurt, which I think would be of great value to this country, known as Lex Adickes. Where they are developmg large property outside the town all proprietors are compelled to hand over their property temporarily to the municipality. The municipality then makes their road and hands back to the owners land in pro- portion to their original holding. This has been such an immense boon to the landowners that now, if there is any idea of this, I believe everyone is coming forward to be included in the scheme, because the laying down of these roads so enhances the value of the land that a smaller portion is more valuable than was formerly a large piece. Fortunately we have around Liverpool very good landowners like Lord Salis- bury who have done a great deal to facilitate the construction of our Queen's Drive. Though we must confess Liverpool owes a great debt of gratitude to Mr. Brodie for the large views taken of widening of roads. I hope he will get that support and encouragement to enable him to go forward. Liverpool has been largely regarded as a city of lost opportunities. Mr. S. Sydney Platt (Borough Surveyor, Rochdale). — Some remarks that have been made recall to me a like ex- perience we are having in regard to through traffic between different towns. Mr. Jacob also speaks about taking the goods from mills. We are having very unpleasant experience owing to the difficulties of railways to cope with the goods traffic on the south-eastern side of Lancashire. The result is that cotton goods are being carried by motor lurries right through Rochdale from Oldham and Ashton district to East Lancashire, and between West Lancashire and Yorkshire. As a consequence our roads are being rapidly destroyed ; in fact, it is impossible to keep macadam roads in a satisfactory 3G state. The only alternative is to substitute granite setts on a solid foundation for the macadam road, and more of this will have to be done. At the same time we have trouble with several roads which are inadequate as regards width, and it means a very expensive process of widening unless we take the opportunity before the development of land of getting owners to meet local authorities in a good spirit to effect improvement ; and that brings me to some remarks of Mr. Brodie's with which I agree. That is, in all Town Planning schemes the mam idea is to arrange wide main roads leaving all the details to follow in due course. Another point about radial roads — the traffic has a tendency to keep to the old routes, and the only remedy is by getting roads in between to relieve the existing roads through the central portion of the city or borough. I have always looked with very great admiration on the scheme Mr. Brodie is developing outside Liverpool. One point about tramways. If it is aimed at to get the ordinary person to business quicker and compete with motor- cars, you have got to speed up the tramway. This cannot be done under the present system of roads. It is quite usual abroad to put the tramway on the side and leave the rest of the road for the ordinary traffic. It shows what is possible if we can get rid of some of our old ideas. Mr. J. E. Jarratt (Town Clerk, Southport). — I did not intend to speak. As you have called upon me may I say how appropriate it seems to me that we should be presided over at the first meeting by Mr. Brodie and that this evening we are to have Mr. Stilgoe to preside. I think it seems most appropriate that two such practical exponents of Town Planning should enlighten our Conference. As you were speaking and referring to the map of Liverpool it struck me the cartoon represents on a large scale almost exactly the particular outline of the problem with which we are confronted in Southport. We have there a natural boundary formed by the sea corresponding with the boundary which you have formed by the river Mersey, and so far as we have been able to make up our minds as to the way to deal with the problem, we have upon paper put lines down in many respects ahnost entirely dealing with the problem m the same way as the cartoon behind you. We have attacked the questions of proper provision of radial roads from the central area and have marked upon our map also a circular boulevard which corresponds with Queen's Drive circular boulevard on your map. In some respects it seems to me that the problem of Liverpool is easier, while in other respects more difficult, than the one in Southport. The difficulty seems to be in Liverpool to get those radial roads into the centre on anything like an 37 adequate scale. Our access into the centre is at the moment within our own boundaries comparatively good. And the respect in which Liverpool seems to me to be able to deal with the problem under easier circumstances is that it is perhaps fortunate in having a very large purse from which it can put down money to carry out those large schemes of circular boulevards without having to wait, as other smaller towns may have to wait for somebody to find the money. It seems to me, if I may say so, that those towns and cities who have this problem before them will be justified if they have the courage to put down these sums — as in the case of Liverpool you justified that expenditure. I think you, sir, will probably agree, and your openmg remarks seem to indicate the fact, that the problems of Town Planning are not confined merely to the planning of towns, but in considering how such problems are to be dealt with, the Imes of communication from other towns must be brought into consideration. I notice behind you you have a plan which indicates the communication Liverpool has with sur- rounding towns. One, I notice, is with Southport, and the members of the audience who can see that blue Ime — I think it is just behind the coast line — will see how, just as an illus- tration of roads in this neighbourhood, it seems to be sadly wanting m the characteristic requirements for a route of modern road traffic. I think it is quite time that in Lancashire, and in this part of Lancashire particularly, there was some conference of authorities which would deal with the very important problems that are now arising and becoming more and more important in improving communication of towns in South Lancashire. I am sure the audience have listened not only with great interest but great profit to the remarks with which you introduced this discussion. Mr. E. R. PiCKMERE (Town Clerk, Liverpool). — What strikes me about this discussion is the great difficulty there is in carrying out what we desire to do. I think we ought to set our minds if we can to find out the best way of getting over the difficulties. Mr. Jarratt has rather hinted at that and I agree with him entirely on that subject. What we want is a little more decentralisation and more local effort. We want to get away as much as possible from the Government part of the work, though we should like assistance from the Govern- ment, and do as much as we can within our own boundaries. The experience we had in our last extension was that we were blocked at the end of a certain splendid wide road with a very narrow road on the area of an adjoining authority, and as Mr. Brodie knows we had to make that road outside the area of another authority because the other authority could 38 not find funds to widen that road ; we had, in fact, to make another road in our own territory. That shows the difficulty we have with other authorities when those authorities are in want of funds. If we can only get co-operation and a federation of these various authorities, we might make a federation of all the towns in Lancashire for certain purposes. If that could be done we should find matters of this kind would be very largely got rid of. Lodge Lane, for example, was constructed by authorities outside Liverpool, and is an ordinary narrow road with single lines. If that road had been made in the same way as Queen's Drive has been made we can all imagine what a splendid thing it would have been. Mr. J. A. Brodie. — Lodge Lane, as the Town Clerk says, is about 40 feet wide at the present time with very closely built houses and a congested population on each side of the road. Most of you know that about 1853 Mr. Newlands, the then Borough Engineer of Liverpool, brought forward a scheme in which he proposed to run a boulevard 100 yards wide along the present line of Ullet Road, Lodge Lane, Tunnel Road, and through behind Stanley Park to the neighbourhood of Walton Church. He had also a number of alternative lines for such roads including one not very far from the line of the present Queen's Drive. One point I want to impress upon you is that though the authorities were well advised at that time they did not follow the good advice given to them. I think that those of us who know the district must come to the conclusion that if that boulevard road had been constructed Liverpool would to-day probably have been leading Conti- nental towns and people would now be coming from the Continent to Liverpool to see Town Planning. Mr. E. J. Morgan (Borough Engineer, Bolton). — We have a good tramway system in Bolton, of a length of some 50 miles. The undertaking hands over a very large sum in profits. My opinion is this, seeing that the municipalities have half the road for tramway purposes these moneys might be applied to making new arterial roads. In Bolton we have 10 main roads, each 60 feet, not one connected by a radial road. I think the money which tramways make might be applied to a betterment fund, and I should like to impress upon this meeting the necessity of asking municipalities to devote the tramway profits for the betterment of roads and particularly to improving their radial roads. Mr. A. J. Price (Surveyor, Lytham). — Most of those who have spoken have come from large towns. I come from a small place and this question affects us in a different way. I have been rather interested in the proposal of Mr. Jacob and 39 Mr. Pickmere, saying a conference ought to be held amongst larger authorities to provide better and wider roads. In the urban district council to which I belong we have the pleasure of providing wide roads for those who don't pay for them. I practically come between Preston and Blackpool and at the present time we are spending £20,000 to make a road between Preston and Blackpool which does not touch either St. Annes or Lytham. We do not gain anything by it. We should like roads to come to our district to bring visitors there. There is another point — in the smaller districts. I am afraid we cannot get the councils educated up to the idea that we want wider roads. Just recently the land on either side of the main road from Preston into Lytham was about to be developed, I saw the landowner and I advised my council that we should have a 60 feet road there, and I saw the landowner and he practically agreed to allow the council to have 60 feet if they would make the extra width of road. My council would not agree to that — they thought 45 feet quite enough. But I am now pleased to say we have got another 5 feet. Another difficulty is our bye-laws insist on 36 feet road. When we wanted to reduce these roads to 30 feet we applied to the Local Government Board to see if they would sanction a reduction in certain cases. They said they were not prepared to do that unless bye-laws applied to the whole of the district. We want something like a local option in the matter, but un- fortunately we cannot get it. There are one or two points in your remarks about parks. I am not sure I agree with you there. Children on the roads — in view of the fact that our roads now, and highways, are becoming quite as important as railways — would be dangerous if mothers bring their children to play on narrow plots of grass. I am not sure I should like my children to go and play there. I feel it is better to provide a small park. Alderman Muirhead (Liverpool Health Committee). — I might say in commencing that I think we have heard of the Irishman who said " What should we do for antiquity." There is something in his point of view, somethmg to be said for our ancestors. We are rather inclined to blame them too much. Do you not think it is rather a matter of evolution from the existence of olden days that we are now tending towards wide roads ? In the old days they had pack horses, old cities, narrow streets. These narrow streets, as we all know, were made narrow for purposes in days of conflict when streets were rushed. Small towns were better defended by narrow streets. In the present enlightened days we do not want these narrow streets. We do not want any fights in our small streets. Then again when you come to think of it, first came the horse and cart, then you get to the four-wheeled lorry. People in those days never dreamt anything would come in the 40 o o CL cc LlJ > way of an engine. Streets were perfect — but now we have got the problem of engine driving. Personally I think there is going to be considerable extension of motor traffic which is now in its infancy. On account of railway charges, we will have to depend on road traffic, and in regard to road traffic it seems to me pretty hopeless as regards small urban district councils. The question is whether this land in these outer districts should be developed by towns and cities in the immediate neighbourhood or under State control. In regard to them being developed by all these small towns and urban districts, the matter is this — these small towns may say " What is the use of these roads to us." The gentleman from Lytham said, " Wliat is the use of this road to us ? " and naturally they will not contribute anything towards the widening of them or the maintenance of them, and no one will blame them. With regard to trams, I would make people walk further to get the tram cars. Make the stations further apart, make wide stations and let trams get a certain amount of rapidity between these stopping places. Now in regard to whether trams should run by the side of road or in the centre. In Princes Boulevard, Liverpool, it is intended to have two tracks put at the side of the promenade. What we want is to take the noise away from the side of the road and give facilities for more rapid transit. We want to keep better class people in the centre of cities so we must give them a way of getting out of the city rapidly. We want to develop our great cities on commercial lines and at the same time as regards the urban districts outside something must be done either by communities or large cities. For instance, at the present time Manchester is developing itself to a very big extent as a port. Well, now, Manchester naturally would not be very helpful to Liverpool which has got the majority of the dock traffic — not very helpful in making a road to bring goods from Liverpool to Manchester. We must get some plan of Government control of roads. I am afraid we have a very difficult task. Mr. J. S. Pickering (Borough Engineer, Cheltenham). — I represent a town which has always had the foresight to carry out its extensions mainly on Town Plannmg lines, and therefore I appreciate the advantages of all these matters. Referring to your remarks as to wide roads and the arterial thoroughfares, I observed on Saturday that exception was taken to the width, although no reasons were given for objec- tions. The main thing, I think, one has to guard against in constructing wide roads is advancing value of land to such extent that it is impossible to buUd. That, sir, I think you have avoided — although you have the wide roads, you have 41 constructed them at a reasonable cost. On the continent, in Germany particularly, as I think is generally known, there have been made very fine wide streets at the expense of the housing of the people. We want to avoid that in this country. You have also referred to what you very properly call elongated parks. In my mind that should be one of the main essentials in carrying out a Town Planning scheme. I think in Liverpool you would appreciate it if these green spaces and parks had been provided in central parts of your city. If you look at your map there you have a very large black patch without a spot of green, and in the midst of your city a very large number of people living under conditions not easy or almost impossible for them to get a breath of fresh air. These elongated parks you suggest would overcome that nicely. I think open spaces should be provided for people within easy distance of everyone. No one has touched upon item No. 7 on the programme with regard to reduced construction, grass borders, and tree planting. I think we all realise it is desirable where we can to reduce the cost of road construction to a minimum. Mr. Price has pointed out the difficulties of doing so, and the bye-laws on Saturday were referred to in very opprobious terms. What we have to guard against is the actual construction of roads being re- duced to such extent that there will be increased cost on rate- payers in future. We as public officials have to guard the public generally against that. Of course enthusiastic Town Planners think they can do economic construction. We, on the other hand, have got to come in between the two and be very careful we do not allow such construction as may be to the future loss of the authority. I think where light road con- struction is allowed in Town Planning schemes, it is very necessary that there should be some prohibition of heavy traffic along such thoroughfares. Roads in Town Planning schemes have been laid out as low as 18 feet for carriage way. But there is nothing so far as I know under the present law to prevent a traction engine to travel along and ruin it. With regard to grass borders we, in Cheltenham, have many of these, and also many miles of avenues of trees. There again one has to be careful in forming an estimate, but I take it if these are to be used they should be kept up by the authority and not by the householders, in fact it is impossible to keep them up otherwise. With regard to tree planning that is a science not of a high standard in this country. Although we have many ordinary and big streets tree planted, we get com- plaints from one or another of the number of trees in the town. This is brought about by the fact that the trees are not of the proper kind, and perhaps in the case of the houses not being set back a sufficient distance from the sides of the streets. 42 o o a. (T 111 > It is possible even in narrow streets to provide trees and yet not keep out light and air, and therefore in laying out these streets regard must be given to the type of tree which is planted. Mr, W. H. HiCKSON (Town Clerk, Rochdale). — I live in East Lancashire, not West Lancashire, and I look at roads such as Queen's Drive with a considerable amount of envy. We are situated in a hilly district with roads converging upon the centre of the town, and it is impossible to contemplate a ring road round Rochdale — almost impossible even to contemplate wide roads through the town. We are bounded by hills on all sides, and if there is anybody present who has experience of these conditions, I should like to hear how they have been dealt with. Mr. Piatt and I are trying to make some sort of town plans in part of our district. We have to do the best we can with limited resources, and we have come here to pick up hints. I once went with the National Housing Reform Council into South Germany, and I felt what they had done at Stuttgart was an example of what might have been done in Rochdale. They gave us the best example of the way to lay out a town in the hills that I have seen yet in any part of the Continent. The Chairman has mentioned the case of children playing on the road side. We have a common — covering a good many acres and stretching on to the hill side — ^within 5 minutes walk of some of the worst districts of our town, but you cannot get young children to go that far even to play on the common. Wlien people talk of providing open spaces for children to play on I often think they do not realise what they are talking about. Unless you can provide spaces almost attached to the house itself you will not get children to leave home to play on them. An exceedingly great diflEiculty which we have in Rochdale is the large number of landowners. For example, at the present time, in arranging for an open space of four acres in Rochdale we have five different landowners to deal with. I have listened very carefully to some of the suggestions as to dealing with motor traffic which, in Rochdale, is confined to one or two roads. The question with us is how to deal with tramways and motor traffic on roads which are very much less than 50 feet, and which are bounded by expensive property. How to pro- vide for this traffic under these conditions is beyond one's conception. Professor Adshead. — The time has almost come to a con- clusion, but for myself I should just like to propose a vote of thanks to our Chairman. I do not wish to introduce formalities, but I think this is rather a special occasion, being the first discussion, and having in our presence so eminent a chairman as Mr. Brodie who comes here at considerable inconvenience to help us. I do not wish to delay by ventilating my own views 43 on the subject. This is not my day — I am not an expert on this subject. One point I do feel has been gained this afternoon by the evidence of several eminent town clerks, Mr. Jarratt, Mr. Pickmere, and Mr. Hickson, that what is necessary throughout Lancashire is somethmg in the nature of a conference to con- sider the joining up of the interests of various authorities by main roads. This question, which is so important in London, is equally apparent in this neighbourhood. I am delegated to represent the Royal Institute of British Architects at one of the conferences which takes place in South-west London next week, and it will be a pleasure to say that that is one of the chief conclusions come to here. Added to this encouraging evidence I may say I was speaking to Lord Salisbury who was strongly of opinion that these main roads outside the municipality and municipal boroughs should be State roads, and I can see no solution of the problem unless we come to some such conclusion as that. I should just like to say what value I personally attach to Mr. Brodie and his main roads. One speaker said children do not play in avenues because they are too far away. But the nursemaids take the children for walks, and to have nice places for them is a matter of great importance. As to the question of grass borders, I wish someone had touched on this question of the construction of grass borders, but there are so many points to discuss. Mr. Sydney Kelly (Liverpool). — I have great pleasure in supporting this vote of thanks to Mr. Brodie. In doing so I should like to support Mr. Brodie particularly as regards his idea of the promenading value of wide tree-planted streets. Formerly the county road to Preston was so congested it was impossible to walk on the footpath owing to the number of people crowding out of trams and walking in both directions. When Queen's Drive opened many people who attended places of worship took to Queen's Drive with the result people were taking their pleasure m a more open space and were thus able to benefit themselves by exercise. Of course gradually Ave shaU see Queen's Drive more congested and then the time will come, no doubt, when Mr. Brodie or his successor will throw- out another boulevard scheme and make fresh lines for Liver- pool. Mr. Brodie's experience in these wide routes has led many people to think about them seriously. I could mention work which has taken place the other side of the water of which he is the godfather. His experience has proved what can be done in laying out these arterial roads. Mention has been made about the districts and how they have sprung up. We must all remember that we have gone from the agricultural day of England to the industrial day, and that our rates have pro- gressed in the same manner. 44 With regard to widening roads it seems to me that some of our forefathers had foresight to see that roads would require to be widened in future years, but unfortunately their ideas were not carried out. Many of the London streets have buildings with front gardens, but in many of the main roads encroachment was made on the gardens in front of the house which was meant to be left for the purpose of widening, and it is necessary that municipalities shall look into these matters. I think when we specify the width of roads it is quite as possible to specify the building line so in time to give provision for future widening. 45 SECOND SESSION. TOWN PLANNING SCHEMES AT BIRMINGHAM March 9th. Evening at 7.30 p.m. Chairman : H. E. STILGOE, M.Inst.C.E., City Engineer, Birmingham. Questions. — 1. Main Traffic Routes in relation to the whole city. 2. Widths and arrangements of roads. 3. The Land Unit, an essential principle in the Birmingham scheme. 4. Powers contained in scheme for controlling development of Unit. 5. Allocation of areas for special purposes. 6. Acquirement of open spaces by purchase or otherwise. 7. Practical ivorking of schemes since their approval. 8. New Procedure Regulations : the advantages of the amendments contained therein. Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — The meeting which I have been asked to preside over this evening has special reference to Town Planning schemes at Birmingham, and if agreeable to you I will briefly refer to one or two of the main points, and then if I can answer any questions and give you any information on particular points concerning those schemes, I shall be very happy to do so. I think perhaps that will be the most satis- factory way of conducting our business this evening. The first point we have to deal with is that of main traffic routes in relation to the whole city. When we commenced our first scheme in Birmingham, the Quinton and Harborne Town Planning scheme, covering about 2,320 acres, we found it was necessary not only to consider the main routes but the whole subject of arterial routes in the city and in those districts which had been added to the city in 1911. On your right there is a map marked " General Survey," drawn to a scale of 6 inches to a mile. Perhaps I might observe that the old city area before November, 1911, was 13,477 acres, and at the present time it is 43,537 acres. You will see we added con- siderably to the city and it was absolutely necessary to consider the arterial roads. The existing roads are coloured hght brown on the map and the proposed arterial roads pink. You will notice that the names of the main roads are printed on the margin of the map and you will see that the great roads into the city all run towards the centre like the fingers of one's hand and it means that the whole of the traffic where it is 46 i/ vV •^•^'v,^- ''^?^-. y'i y-ii^:,. '•^ SECOND SESSION. TOWN PLANNING SCHEMES AT BIRMINGHAM March 9th. Evening at 7.30 p.m. Chairman : H. E. STILGOE, M.Inst.C.E., City Engineer, Birmingham. Questions. — 1. Main Traffic Routes in relation to the whole city. 2. Widths and arrangements of roads. 3. The Land Unit, an essential principle in the Birmingham scheme. 4. Powers contained in scheme for controlling development of Unit. 5. Allocation of areas for special purposes. 6. Acquirement of open spaces by purchase or otherwise. 7. Practical ivorking of schemes since their approval. 8. New Procedure Regulations : the advantages of the amendments contained therein. Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — The meeting which I have been asked to preside over this evening has special reference to Town Planning schemes at Birmingham, and if agreeable to you I will briefly refer to one or two of the main points, and then if I can answer any questions and give you any information on particular points concerning those schemes, I shall be very happy to do so. I think perhaps that will be the most satis- factory way of conducting our business this evening. The first point we have to deal with is that of main traffic routes in relation to the whole city. When we commenced our first scheme in Birmingham, the Quinton and Harborne Town Planning scheme, covering about 2,320 acres, we found it was necessary not only to consider the main routes but the whole subject of arterial routes in the city and in those districts which had been added to the city in 1911. On your right there is a map marked " General Survey," drawn to a scale of 6 inches to a mile. Perhaps I might observe that the old city area before November, 1911, was 13,477 acres, and at the present time it is 43,537 acres. You will see we added con- siderably to the city and it was absolutely necessary to consider the arterial roads. The existing roads are coloured light brown on the map and the proposed arterial roads pink. You will notice that the names of the main roads are printed on the margin of the map and you will see that the great roads into the city all run towards the centre like the fingers of one's hand and it means that the whole of the traffic where it is 46 through traffic has to pass right through the heavily trafficked streets of the centre. The work we set ourselves to do was to lay out the lines of the proposed arterial roads. The great ring road which has been projected is 100 feet in width, and it will be at an average distance of 1 mile from the city boundar}'. Commencing on the west side of the city by a junction with the main road to Halesowen, it takes a course due south for a distance of about 4| miles, when it crosses the Bristol road ; from this point the course is eastward for about 6 miles, and in this length it crosses the following main roads radiating to the centre of the city — the Alvechurch road, Pershore road, Alcester road, and Stratford road. From its junction with the Stratford road its direction is northerly for about 7| miles, and the main roads crossed are the Warwick road, Coventry road, Nuneaton and Leicester road, Tamworth road, and the Lichfield and Burton- on-Trent road ; its direction is now westward for about 5 miles, and it crosses the Walsall road and joins the Holyhead road at the boundary of the city and West Bromwich. For about 13^ miles the ring road will consist of widenings of the existing roads, the remainder being entirely new. Then we are planning inner ring roads which will join up the radial roads at points nearer to the centre. I am sure I need not remind you of the fact that the building development in every town is in the immediate neighbourhood of the great arterial roads, and it is absolutely necessary to have roads to link these up and to develop the intermediate country. This map on the left shows what we are doing in the wsiy of Town Planning. It shows by different colours the Birmingham Town Planning schemes either prepared or in course of pre- paration. The first scheme, on the left of the map (Quinton and Harbome Scheme), has an area of 2,320 acres ; the next is the East Birmingham, coloured blue, 1,443 acres. Both of these are sanctioned. We are now working at the North Yardley scheme, 3,176 acres, coloured green and yellow. This is an interesting scheme because it includes a district outside the city (the portion coloured yellow, 1,111 acres). It is intended to make the council of that outside district the responsible authoritj^ that is to say, they will have to bear the burden of the portion of the scheme coloured yellow, and as soon as the scheme is passed they \vill have to work it. We are also at work upon the South Birmingham scheme, having an area of about 8,700 acres, and our intention is, in fact, to go all round the city. Widths and arrangement of roads is a very important subject. Upon this map here. No. 5, we have shown the principal roads. This road here extends into the North Yardley scheme. Here again we have an inner ring to link 47 up another main road whicli will also be shown in the North Yardley area. Our object in planning these arterial roads is to provide as far as we could conceive to be necessary for all the main road traffic, thus allomng the landowners to lay out their private streets on much cheaper lines. I should explain here that our city bye-laws provide that all streets shall be laid out to a width of 50 feet, but we have power in cases where an open space is left on one or both sides, to reduce the width ; and it has been our practice to allow streets to be laid out to a width of 42 feet, and even 36 feet under certain conditions. Our bye-laws, however, do not specify the dome of construction, nor do the}^ allocate the width of the carriage- way and footways ; we are consequently in a very strong position and we have recently issued a new specification and drawings of cross sections showing the manner in which streets of various widths may be constructed. We have recently introduced three street sections, Nos. 4, 5, and 6, on Town Planning lines, with a view of reducing the cost of construction. The carriageway is reduced to a width of 18 feet for service or estate roads. People have looked askance at the width proposed for some of the arterial roads, but the expense is not relatively great. It is somewhat greater, of course, but by reduced requirements for subsidiary streets we are able to save the landowners about £75 to £100 per acre in the cost of road- making, and thus bring the cost down to something like £270 per acre. We find that in the districts where land can be obtained for £120 an acre the landowner is quite well able to lay out his land and build 12 houses per acre as profitably under the new conditions as under the old bye-law conditions. I mention this because it may not be appreciated that although the number of houses per acre is reduced under a Town Planning scheme, the cost of roadmaking is also reduced. The next point we notice is the land unit. I do not know if you have seen our Birmingham schemes. They have been printed, but I might perhaps explain quite briefly what we mean by the land unit. The corporation has power to deter- mine what area the land unit shall include. When a person submits his plans for the erection of a building, he is required to state whether he owns any land in the area of the scheme other than that referred to in his plan. If he owns any other land in the area, he is required to furnish a plan of it, and the corporation then determine whether the area shall be divided into several units or not. The scheme specifies the number of houses to be erected per acre, and, in accordance with that specification, the corporation declare the number of houses which may be erected on the land unit. 48 up another main road which will also be shown in the North Yardley area. Our object in planning these arterial roads is to provide as far as we could conceive to be necessary for all the main road traffic, thus allomng the landowners to lay out their private streets on much cheaper lines. I should explain here that our city bye-laws provide that all streets shall be laid out to a mdth of 50 feet, but we have power in cases where an open space is left on one or both sides, to reduce the width ; and it has been our practice to allow streets to be laid out to a width of 42 feet, and even 36 feet under certain conditions. Our bye-laws, however, do not specify the dome of construction, nor do thej^ allocate the width of the carriage- way and footways ; we are consequently in a very strong position and we have recently issued a new specification and drawings of cross sections showing the manner in which streets of various widths may be constructed. We have recently introduced three street sections, Nos. 4, 5, and 6, on Town Planning lines, with a view of reducing the cost of construction. The carriageway is reduced to a width of 18 feet for service or estate roads. People have looked askance at the width proposed for some of the arterial roads, but the expense is not relatively great. It is somewhat greater, of course, but by reduced requirements for subsidiary streets we are able to save the landowners about £75 to £100 per acre in the cost of road- making, and thus bring the cost down to something like £270 per acre. We find that in the districts where land can be obtained for £120 an acre the landowner is quite well able to lay out his land and build 12 houses per acre as profitably under the new conditions as under the old bye-law conditions. I mention this because it may not be appreciated that although the number of houses per acre is reduced under a Town Planning scheme, the cost of roadmaking is also reduced. The next point we notice is the land unit. I do not know if you have seen our Birmingham schemes. They have been printed, but I might perhaps explain quite briefly what we mean by the land unit. The corporation has power to deter- mine what area the land unit shall include. When a person submits his plans for the erection of a building, he is required to state whether he owns any land in the area of the scheme other than that referred to in his plan. If he owns any other land in the area, he is required to furnish a plan of it, and the corporation then determine whether the area shall be divided into several units or not. The scheme specifies the number of houses to be erected per acre, and, in accordance with that specification, the corporation declare the number of houses which may be erected on the land unit. 48 1 5 i I ?i ^ r ^ I •l^lsir!»l|!|llN Sl>i^^?^ lirri In the East Birmingham scheme we have three different densities — the light grey 12 to the acre, medium grey 15, dark grey 18. The pink colour indicates factory areas. With regard to the allocation of areas for special purposes, I have already mentioned the building zones or areas of building density. We had great difficulty in determining what areas should be reserved for the building of factories. As far as possible we have allotted for factories the areas adjoining the railways and canals, so that advantage might be taken of the facilities for transit. The northern factory area adjoins the Midland Railway, there is another factory area adjoining the London and North-western Railwaj, and the southern factory area adjoins the Great Western Railway and a canal. With regard to the acquirement of open spaces by purchase or otherwise, in this particular scheme (East Birmingham) we have merelj' scheduled open spaces, and if we follow the same lines as in the Quinton scheme we shall purchase them if we can get the land at a reasonable price. As to dealing with building plans, we have no power to approve any plan between the date upon which application is made to the Local Government Board for leave to prepare a scheme, and the date when the scheme is made by the Board. During that period the land is " bound " and all building development is at a standstill. That unfortunately must be so. I am not sure that it is not a good thing (provided the period is not too great) because it gives time for owners of property and builders to see how they can best plan their land in accordance with the new conditions. The new Procedure Regulations will help us in that way. Those of us who have had to prepare schemes know what an immense amount of work there has been. In a paper I read before the Institute of INIunicipal and County Engineers at Yarmouth last summer I set out in a schedule the whole of the proceedings which had to be followed in accordance with each Article of the Town Planning Procedure Regulations. Since then, as j^ou are no doubt aware, the new Procedure Regulations have been issued by the Local Government Board and will be on sale very shortly. I had an advance copy sent to me a few daj's ago and I have prepared some notes showing how the procedure is modified. Map No. 1 is pretty much the same thing as it was before except that it may be used for Map No. 2 if it is marked accordingly. Map No. 2 under the old regulations entailed an immense amount of work because of the gas and water mains, the sewers, and other information required to be shown thereon. Under the new Regulations the new buildings and 49 new streets are to be shown, but not the mains and sewers. Map No. 2 has to be submitted with the apphcation to the Board for leave to prepare a scheme. At that time an estimate has to be submitted, and as the Regulations foreshadow the estimate can be of a somewhat sketchy nature, but I am sure it will not satisfy the engineer to make an estimate of that description, because if an estimate is worth anything at all it must be fairly correct, and it is necessary to spend a great deal of time and thought upon the works that have to be included. Map No. 3 becomes very much the same thing as Map No. 5 of the old Regulations, which has to have the various roads and so forth shown upon it, and that map must also be considered in regard to the estimate which the Board require. I think it would be a good thing if the Board could be persuaded to restrict the estimate to the cost of the land necessary for public open spaces, allotments, and for the land required for the streets. Article 8 of the new Regulations provides that when authority to prepare a scheme has been given b}^ the Board notice shall be given by advertisement in a local paper. This dispenses with the serving of individual notices required under the old Regulations. AVhere personal notices have to be served upon owners of land included in a scheme, the term " owner " has the same meaning as in the Lands Clauses Acts. The expression " prescribed persons " (upon whom notices have to be served) does not include occupiers — see Article XXVII. — as was required under the old Regulations. It is a great relief not to have to serve notice on occupiers. If Map No. 3 is not altered then it maj^ stand as Map No. 4 under the new Regulations. I would respectfully suggest that if Map No. 3 is only very slightly altered the Local Government Board should allow those alterations to be shown in some distinctive wa}^ and the map should then stand as No. 4 instead of requiring a new Map No. 4 to be made. I have referred to the principal points in the schemes, and the subject is now open for discussion, so if members of the Conference will kindly address the meeting or put questions to me I shall be happj^ to give such information as I may be able. Mr. F. W. Platt (Borough Engmeer, Salford). — I should like to ask whether you find it necessary to make any modifica- tions in regard to the allocation of areas for the purpose say of different numbers of houses to the acre or factory portions ? Whether you have had to grant any more factory portions ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — In reply to Mr. Platt we have not at present found it necessary to alter the zone map. We have had certain difficulties as we shall find in every scheme ; owners, either for the purpose of getting some compensation or for some 50 really justifiable purpose, will undoubtedly try to get alterations made. We shall not, I may say at once, alter the zone plan from the point of view of density, but we have this power under the scheme — if upon any area reserved for the building of dwelling-houses a person wishes to build a factory he must submit his plans — if that factory is of a nature that cannot be harmful, and if the Town Planning Committee is satisfied that it is a proper thing to allow it to be built, they will give per- mission, that permission has to be advertised in a local news- paper, and it is open to persons to object. If there are objec- tions they will be dealt with at a Local Government Board Inquiry, but the scheme is perfectly elastic in that way and we should try to avoid the infliction of hardship. Mr. W. W. HiCKSON (Town Clerk, Rochdale).— May I ask if any claims for compensation have been made and pursued afterwards ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — We have had one application for compensation, and it is now under consideration. Councillor G. Sharp (York). — In your opening para- graph you said " the responsible authority." We have great difficulty in getting outside authorities to come into line, and one thing they do avoid is any question of payment. We also find that their district council shelter themselves behind the county council. I should like you to give us a little further information as to how to bring them into line. Mr. J. A. Brodie (City Engineer, Liverpool). — I think the area you referred to coloured yellow is likely to be an exceed- ingly interesting one. I should like to ask how it is proposed to deal with the main roads through tliat district ? Whether in effect any main roads are provided, and if they are provided, who is to bear the cost of reconstruction ? I also want some information with regard to cost of constructing other streets. Mr. C. F. WiKE (City Engineer and Surveyor, Sheffield). — On two very large estates we have got the oAvners to give sufficient land, and they gave the land on condition that we reduced the cost of construction, and we have reduced it to so much that the cost of an 80 feet street comes to the same as an ordinary 40 feet would come to. Mr. A. J. Price (Surveyor, Lytham). — I should like to ask whether in getting wide arterial roads, and you make a reduc- tion of your widths from 50 feet or 42 feet for new streets, you are able to get the frontagers to contribute to the cost of the arterial roads ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — In reply to Councillor Sharp and Mr. Brodie, the area coloured 3'elloM' on the map is part of the parish of Castle Bromwich in the Meriden Rural District, and before 51 we commenced our North Yardley scheme in which that is included, we had a consultation with the Council of that outside district, and they were in agreement with us as to the boundary line of the portion of their district to be included. Further than that we asked them to send us a plan showing the positions and widths of the proposed arterial roads in their district so that as far as possible we might be in agreement. They have accepted the position that they will be the " responsible authority," so there is no trouble likely to arise in that respect. With regard to the County Council in whose district Meriden is situate, we have conferred with the county authorities and do not antici- pate any serious difficulty as our proposals are of a reasonable nature. With regard to the method of apportioning the cost of wide streets. In our first scheme, of course, we had to feel our way carefully, and I must say the landowners met us in an admirable spirit of co-operation. The proposal was to lay out an arterial road 100 feet in width right through the district from east to west. What we agreed was this. The cost of an ordinary 42 feet street is about £5 per yard run, the extra land required for making up to 100 feet would roughly be worth about the difference between the cost of making a 42 feet street and a 50 feet street (the maximum width demandable under our bye- laws), and we agreed with them that when we make the 100 feet street they shall pay us £2. 10s. per yard run of frontage (£5 per yard forward). In the scheme, however, we took power to make their con- tribution up to £3. 10s. per yard of frontage so that in case there was any special work to be carried out which would not ordinarily occur, such as heavy culverting, &c., they would pay something extra ; so far, however, in the agreements com- pleted, we have charged only £2. 10s. per yard of frontage. Mr. Price, of Lytham, speaks of the reduced width of roads. We must not confound the two points — the one is that under a Town Planning scheme we reduce the width of service roads, and the other is we reduce the width of roads under our bye-laws. In Birmingham, our bye-laws as to new streets are such that we have power under certain conditions to lessen the bye-law width of 50 feet, and in some instances, in areas where we have no Town Planning schemes, I have agreed with owners that they shall give up land to enable the corporation to widen some of the narrow highways to 100 feet, and in return we will permit them to construct their estate streets at reduced cost. We are working very well and so far have been able to attain our object by co-operation. Mr. F. W. Spurr (City Engineer, York).— Will Mr. Stilgoe tell us how he has arrived at the number of houses per acre, 52 and also how the land for recreation purposes has been acquired ? Delegate (Manchester). — Mr. Stilgoe told us that a local authority has no power to approve plans between the date of application to the Local Government Board for leave to prepare a scheme and the date of approval of that scheme. Assuming the local authority has approved plans a little while previously to the application for leave to prepare a scheme, is there any- thing to prevent the builder from building in accordance with those plans ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — In reply to Mr. Spurr as to how we arrive at the number of houses per acre and how the land required for recreation purposes has been obtained. Dealing with each scheme we have done what we considered was reason- able, having regard to the existing building conditions. Take East Birmingham — the case before us. In the dark grey area, 18 houses to the acre, we find that builders who have recently been building in the various districts here were erecting houses at the rate of about 18 to the acre ; we therefore began by determining the area next to the built-up portions at 18, gradually reducing as we got further away — medium grey 15 — light grey 12. We find that the builder can reasonably erect 12 houses to the acre on land which can be obtained in that district, and I may tell you that the corporation itself pur- chased a large area of land in this neighbourhood for £137 per acre. With regard to the acquiring of open spaces, I think we want to bear this in mind : You say you " ear-mark " land for open spaces. When you schedule an open space you have got to keep it as an open space. It is put into the scheme, which is an Act of Parliament, and the land must be kept as an open space. I do not say you could not alter the shape somewhat and somewhat vary it, but if you put it in the scheme you can be forced to purchase the land. At the present moment a land- owner has asked us to purchase an area for recreation ground purposes, and we are agreeing the price with him, although probably it would have been convenient to have waited one or two years — however it makes very little difference at the price we are paying. You must bear in mind that you do a little more than " ear-mark " it ; the land becomes tlie subject of an Act of Parliament and you have to acquire it. Mr. J. A. Brodie (City Engineer, Liverpool). — As a matter of general information, will you kindly say what your minimum rental on these areas is ? That is a very important point, I think, especially where the number of houses has been reduced from 18 to 12. 53 Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — The houses that have been built re- cently have a rental of 6s. 9d. per week, the same rent prac- tically as that paid previously. In this immediate neighl our- hood houses let at 6s. 9d. per week cost about £165 to build, have on first floor three bedrooms, bath-room and w.c. in it ; on ground floor — front parlour, kitchen, scullery, w.c, and outhouses ; the frontage is 5 yards, and the depth of the building plot about 45 yards. Professor Adshead (Liverpool). — Is there any restriction to the amount of space occupied by a building ? Mr. J. Pemberton (Warrington). — Will Mr. Stilgoe kindly tell us how many houses to the acre there would be on the north-west side — where somewhat densely populated, I pre- sume ? Would you mind telhng me how many houses are there ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — About 25 to the acre. Mr. W. W. Shennan (Surveyor to Wirral R.D.C.). — Would Mr. Stilgoe kindly tell me if the owners of the land can compel Birmingham to construct those roads, and if so, how much notice have owners to give to the corporation for those roads to be constructed and vice versa ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — I omitted to answer Mr. Jackson's question. He asked about the power to approve plans between the date of application to prepare scheme and date of approval. We received several sets of plans during that time, and all we did was to inform the builder that they were in accordance with building bye-laws, but we had no power to approve, and there we left it. There were one or two houses built during the time, but as they did not prejudice the scheme we did not inter- fere with the builder proceeding. Of course it was open to any other person to object, but I doubt if they could have done anything effective unless the Local Government Board had considered the buildings to be obstructive. Delegate. — Assuming that you had approved the plans immediately before application was made for leave to prepare the scheme or portion of the scheme, and the building of them did infringe upon your scheme, what power have you to prevent the builder, assuming you previously approved his plans and he built ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — First of all I should say that a builder erecting the houses during transition period would do so at his own risk. In regard to Mr. Jackson's last question supposing the plans were approved a short time before application by the corporation for leave to prepare a scheme, this would not in the ordinary way prevent the builder from going on with the building, but if those buildings were placed in such a position 54 that they would interfere with tlie scheme the corporation could stop the work and demolish it, and they would have to pay compensation. The Act is quite definite on that point. Mr. Shennan, of Wirral, asks about date of construction of 100 feet roads. In the scheme it is provided that the corpora- tion shall make such roads as are included in Schedule A, and those roads are set forth. Schedule B refers to roads to be made by landowners themselves. If any person is aggrieved by the corporation not carrying out any work at a specific time the person can appeal to the Local Government Board ; but you can take it that if any person can show he is going to develop his land alongside the roads the corporation will make the roads in order to promote building development. Professor x4dshead asks a question as to whether there is any restriction on the area of the building. I do not know of anything to prevent building on a large area of the building plot provided that the building bye-laws are not infringed thereby. I do not think it is quite conceivable that a person would Avish to put up a house having such a large floor space that it would be in anyway prejudicial to the district. It would not be a commercial proposition. Under the scheme we can prevent the erection of any building that may interfere with air space ; if an attempt of that kind were made we should have full power to deal with it. Mr. W. W. Shennan. — Might I ask another question ? Assuming that your road passes from one highway to another, passes through land belonging to three persons, two of whom are agreeable and one objects, how would you make the middle person agree ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — The answer to that question is this — the scheme gives power to construct the road, and the owner therefore has to submit to the road being made. It may be useful to know that in some cases the laying out of these arterial roads isolates certain small portions of pro- perty, and the scheme gives power to adjust the boundaries. Mr. W. W. Shennan. — Do you provide the money out of your ordinary revenue for the construction of these roads ? Mr. J. A. Brodie. — In a case such as is mentioned, where you propose to proceed with the construction of a road, who pays, and when do you get your money returned in the orduiary course of events ? I would ask whether in some of your roads which you are constructing or taking power to construct 100 feet wide and to set back the houses an additional 30 feet, making a total of 160 feet between houses, what provision is made for the addition of that 60 feet to the road should such a course in the future become necessary or advisable ? Do you take any powers for 55 it noAv or do you propose to allow the value of that land to rise as possibly it might do under certain circumstances ? Mr. H. W. CoRRiE (Surveyor, Lower Bebington). — I should like to know whether there have been any examples of better- ment under the scheme ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — The period for borrowing money has not been determined. We have applied to the Local Govern- ment Board for a loan for laying out the first two lengths of the ring road, and we are at the present moment waiting their reply ; the Board, however, have intimated that the loan of the sewer portion wUl be granted under the Public Health Act ; therefore it would appear that the Local Government Board may be going to give us rather a longer period for the road construction than they ordmarily do. It may be we shall get a longer period ; if local authorities are to be encouraged in this work the Board will have to treat them more easily financially. ]Mr. Brodie asks who finds the money in the first case. The local authority must find the money — they will, as a rule, I suppose, apply for loans and the frontager, that is, the land- owner, Avill have to pay immediately the rating is changed from agricultural rating. As I say, we have agreed with the land- owners that in the first case they shall not compel us to complete the street, but to roughly lay it out and make it sufficiently to enable vehicles to use it. With regard to the 100 feet streets with a 30 feet buildmg line, we did not think it necessary in our schemes to take powers to acquire a strip of that 30 feet, for this reason, — ^we have power under a private Act of Parliament to prescribe frontage lines — whenever the Corporation considers a street is too narrow or the frontage line is inconvenient. A plan is prepared on which the frontage Une is marked, notice is then served on owners, and after the lapse of one month from date of service the plan is signed by the chairman of committee acting by the council, and the owner can then compel the local authority to purchase the strip of land. In a scheme prepared by local authorities not having those powers it would be a wise provision to include something of that kind. In reply to ]\Ii\ Corrie we have made no claims for better- ment. In reply to Mr. Price, of Lytham, we have had no land given up for the purpose of open spaces in respect of anything which we have done in respect of reducing cost of roads. Of course land has been given up for the purpose of widening streets. In the Quinton area we have a scheme covering 2,320 acres. There are four plots reserved for open spaces, a total of 31 acres. That at a glance does not look very much perhaps in proportion, 56 but it should be pointed out we have three very large parka adjoining the boundaries of the area and there are also several playing spaces within the district at the present time. We have no general scheme at present of how we are going to deal with those open spaces. We already have sufficient parks laid out for the purpose of the district. In East Birmingham you will notice we have a very large park and another space here, and having regard to the fact that we intend to lay out a very large track of land along the river we are of opinion sufficient provision is made. The East Birmingham scheme does not agree in exact terms with this strip of land marked on the map for the reason that we are going to deal with it under the North Yardley scheme, and to lay out the land alongside the river so as to form a continuous park. Mr. H. C. Burroughs (Liverpool). — In selecting the factory areas you mentioned that they were placed adjacent to the railways. Was any attention paid to the prevaihng winds or nature of land ? Was an}- provision made for the %\idening of railways at the time ? Mr. S. Kelly (Liverpool). — Taking land not to be built upon — say the area alongside the river — I take it that if at any time it was found necessary to make a railway there, would the very fact of the land being put down as land not to be built upon preclude it being used as railway ? Do I understand that you intend to take agricultural land out of the category of undeveloped land by making a street so that the rating by authorities changes from " agricultural " to " building" ? Does it become land rated at full rate ? In your streets you showed us plans of widths — I should like to know if they are graded with various specifications with regard to the traffic they have to carry ? Delegate. — In regard to the 100-feet roads which you are about to construct, is it your intention to make them the full width at once or are you widening them and making a narrow carriageway to carry present traffic or near future traffic ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — In reply to Mr. Burroughs, may I say it gives me very great pleasure to reply to a question from a student. I would like to see the students of the universities and our various technical schools take an interest in this kind of work and ask as many questions as they can. In reply to Mr. Burroughs' question as to factory areas, he is quite right ; the prevailing winds are of course towards the north-east, and here it is that we propose to place our factor}- area, and we have another factory area here and one at this point. It would appear that this is a southern area, but it is quite a small area in relation to the whole city. In dealing with the southern 57 and western areas of the city, we shall have to consider the factory question very closely, but in East Birmingham, I think, there can be no harm because these areas are already adjoining factories. There are no factory areas at all in the Quinton scheme. The question was asked as to whether the scheme permits of the widening of railways. There is nothing in the scheme, but I may say we are communicating with one of the railway companies and enquiring whether they wish us to reserve for them a portion of the land before we allocate it. As you are aware a railway company would in all probability have to go to Parliament, particularly in the case of a new railway, and they would seek powers to amend our scheme, and I presume if they made out a reasonable case and gave us other lands or made proper provision we should not oppose, because what would be good for the railway company would be good for the district. On the question of rating, I may say at once there is no intention of forcing the laying-out of a street just for the purpose of doing so and charging the owners with a higher rate. I think you may take it as a general rule Ave shall not proceed with the laying-out of the streets until there is reasonable prospect of a return in the shape of increased rateable value or because a street is necessary for traffic purposes. I ought to make it clear that in the laying-out of these wide streets, we shall probably not immediately construct the carriageway at its full width. I was asked the other day if we should in the first instance put kerbs in. I think not. We shall put the street gulleys in their ultimate position and cut grips in the verges to lead the water from the carriageway to the gulleys. Delegate. — In connection with children's playgrounds, it seems to me there should be instead of large playgrounds small ones close to the houses. I should like to know whether any provision in your scheme can easily be made for that, also whether any limitation is made for shopping purposes, and also taking that piece of ground at the top of scheme why that is left out ? Delegate. — First, I should like to know whether there is any provision in the schemes as to control of height of buildings. Secondly, whether any areas have been specified for sewage disposal, and cemeteries ; whether in connection with this it is intended to i^ay compensation to owners abutting on those areas ? Mr. J. A. Wright (Surveyor, Great Crosby). — With regard to the partial construction of roads, I should like to know if any demand is made on owners for that work or left over until final completion of the road. Mr. Bryce-Leicestee (Liverpool). — Saving in cost of road making. I should be glad if he can enlarge a little on these costs. Delegate (Birkenhead). — With regard to the cost of road making, might I ask what the minimum depth for sewers is, and also the average distance apart of gulleys ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — With reference to the cost of widening existing roads, it will be observed on reference to the map that this section of the 100-feet road consists of new road entirely, and down this line there is a widening. We have arranged that the contribution shall be the same, although as this narrow lane exists, it is very inconvenient. We do not specifically show in our schemes any playgrounds immediately adjoining dwellings, but we are encouraging owners of property, instead of having big gardens to curtail the length and to throw the ends of the gardens into one small common playing space or allotment ground ; then a man who does not care about a large garden can have a house with a small garden. It will be of interest to you to know, I am sure, that the Sutton Estate has purchased about 21 acres within the East Birmingham area, and they are going to lay that out as a garden city with 12 houses to the acre, and these spaces are amply provided for in the laying out. The reason for omitting that area — the excluded area in the East Birmingham scheme — we really left it out because it is practically built up. Personally, I think it is a great mistake to leave out any area ; for it often happens that in the fuller consideration of a scheme one may want to lay out a road through the particular area which has been excluded. It may also happen that someone will subsequently desire to pull down the houses in an excluded area and then build factories. It is a very great mistake to exclude areas. There is no necessity now, under the new Regulations, to omit them on the score of cost of referencing. As to the height of buildings, we have nothing specifically laid down ; but I think we should be able to deal with an obstructive building under Section 59 of the Act. I think you will find it is pretty clearly laid down as to what particular objects compensation shall apply (read Section 59). In our schemes we have taken a general power to preserve amenities. With regard to the average value of land before and after the making of a scheme, I am perfectly certain that what is agricultural land on the west side of the citj^ will come into building value many years earlier than it would otherwise have done, and although we reduce the number of houses per 59 acre, the number of acres brouglit into rating will be increased many times over. In reply to Mr. Wright, as to when payment is to be made to the Corporation for the cost of street making, payment to the Corporation is to be made by the owner of any land deriving benefit from a street as soon as any such land shall be brought into rating for other than agricultural purposes. This pro- vision refers to the streets which are to be made by the Cor- poration at the cost of the frontagers. Clause 5 of the Quinton and Harborne scheme reads : — " The said new street described in Clause 4 of this scheme and numbered 2 shall be completely constructed at once and the remainder of the said new streets described in such clause shall be commenced at the discretion of the corporation subject to the right of any person aggrieved by the delay of the corporation in commencing any of such remaining streets to appeal under Clause 32 hereof. Streets shall be deemed to have been commenced within the meaning of this clause as soon as they are cut or laid out to formation level and the bottom layer of the foundation has been laid thereon." Mr. Bryce-Leicester, of Liverpool, has asked for some further details as to the cost per acre of the laying-out of streets. I can say that in conjunction with one of our principal estate agents I ascertained the cost of laying out an estate in Birmingham ; we measured the area of the estate and found the cost of the streets and sewers to be about £350 per acre. Taking a general case and working on these lines, we came to the conclusion there would be a saving of at least £75 to £100 per acre by adopting the modified street cross-sections. Of course, it is impossible to make a hard and fast rule as the contour of the land, and facilities for drainage vsivy in different cases. As to the cost of road making, depth of sewers, position of gulleys, &c., it is quite impossible to lay down a general rule or to say what the actual cost will be. Delegate. — I quite understand ; but what is the minimum depth ? Mr. H. E. Stilgoe. — Minimum depth must depend on the fall of the land. Delegate. — Quite so ; but at the height of the street ? Mr. H. E, Stilgoe. — It entirely depends on whether the sewer is likeh' to be carried further forward. What we do is to arrange for the sewer to be laid at the back of the buildings. We have power under a private Act of Parliament by which we can approve of sewers being laid and considered to be " combined drains." Plans of these " combined drains " are submitted to the Council for approval, and " combined drainage " orders are made under the Act, In these cases sewers are probably 3 feet from the surface. The depth must all depend on local conditions. m As to the spacing of guUeys, there again it depends on local circumstances. The longitudinal fall of the street must be taken into consideration. Gulleys are generally placed 50 yards apart, and the longitudinal fall of the street channel should be 1 in 120 as a minimum where possible. Mr. J. A. Brodie. — We have now arrived at the end of the proceedings. Before we part I am sure you desire to thank Mr. Stilgoe for the information he has given us. I think he has been peppered pretty severely. I recognise several of my own staff here, and think many of them, by not asking questions, have lost a great opportunity of obtaining informa- tion of great interest to everyone interested in town plans. 61 THIRD SESSION TOWN PLANNING UNDER THE ACT Tuesday, March 10th. Afternoon at 3 p.m. Chairman : W. R. DAVIDGE, A.R.I.B.A., F.S.I., District Surveyor, Lewisham. Questions. — 1. General application of Toivn Planning Act in reference to existing Bye-laws. 2. Effect of the Town Planning Act on Building Operations. 3. Effect of the Town Planning Act on the Price of Land. 4. Application of the Toivn Planyiing Act considered in Conjunction ivith Tramway Extension. 5. Town Planning Act and City Extension. 6. Town Planning Act and Municipal Land Purchase. Mr. S. A. Kelly. — I must apologise for the delay in this afternoon's proceedings, but we have just received an intimation from Mr. de Courcy Meade that he is unavoidably detamed, and an Alderman of the Manchester Corporation has come down to apologise for his absence. Before Alderman Wilson delivers that apology I should like to say that we have with us to-day Mr. Davidge (of London). Alderman Marsh (of Sheffield), and Mr. Wike (City Engineer of Sheffield), and under these circumstances I think it will be well for us to proceed with the questions of Town Planning as set out on the programme, and endeavour to follow the order given on the paper. Alderman Wilson (Manchester). — I am a living example of a public apology. Mr. Meade fully intended to be present this afternoon even up to 10 or 11 o'clock. Unfortunately we have had an accident in Manchester. An old sewer has burst, and Mr. Meade has naturally been summoned to this accident, and has sent word it was not possible for him to come here. I asked if he had wired his apology, though I thought as I was coming I could make his apology for him. The accident is something very serious, but I do not myself know the nature or seriousness of it, but it is sufficient to keep him from coming here this afternoon. If Mr. Meade makes a promise or gives his name to read a paper, he is the last man to refuse, and no one is as sorry as he is that he could not be present this afternoon. I might say as chairman of the Town Planning Committee of Man- chester we are fully aware of the importance of Town Planning, and we have been working very hard for the last two years. We have Town Planning in North Manchester. We have made application to the Local Government Board, and we have had 62 the inspector down to take him over the district, and T think we liave convinced hiui that the scheme laid down by tlie city surveyor is a desirable one for North Manchester. We have not had a report from the Local Government Board or the authority to put it into force. We have scheduled another scheme in South ^lanchester of 5,000 acres, and that is also ready to be presented to the Local Government Board for its approval. I think we are near getting approval of both schemes in so much as we have had numerous interviews with representatives of landowners, and there is no friction whatever between ourselves in those conferences, so we may say in North Manchester and South Manchester we have practically got the owners with us. Mr. Meade prepared large cartoon plans which are hung up in one of the large committee rooms. These are on rollers and can easily be shown to anyone who desires to see them. Perhaps we have gone a little bit too far and put too much work by showing the main arterial roads and subsidiary roads. Mr. Adams, the Local Government Board Inspector, thought we would have done with less work. But remember we have left no stone unturned. You all require schemes of Town Planning, and if you are not sharp in Liverpool we shall steal a march over you. I must conclude by saying that I am as sorry as you are that our chairman is not with us this afternoon. Mr. S. Kelly. — I think the best way we can proceed with the discussion of this paper on Town Planning under the Act is to take the questions one by one, and I will ask Mr. Davidge if he will take the chair, and Mr. Wike if he will support him m giving us a little of his valued experience with reference to the various questions. Mr. W. R. Davidge (District Surveyor, Lewisham). — I should like to express the disappomtment of the audience not to have Mr. de Courcy Meade with us to-day, but his absence emphasizes a point which I do not see on the programme, that is, the very large place that engineering works such as large sewers and drainage must take in Town Planning. It does not come definitely under the Act, but emphasizes the point that sewerage works are a very important factor indeed in the comfort of the inhabitants. As I came along in the train, wherever I saw a stream it was overflooding the neighbourhood ; this emphasizes very strongly the point of providing for this from a Town Planning point of view. As to question No. 1 on the Programme : " General Application of Town Planning Act in reference to existing Bye-laws" — well the existing bye-laws of course come in for a very great deal of abuse, and speaking betAveen ourselves the authorities very often connive with the difficulty, as they both openly and otherwise either shut their eyes to a breach of bye-laws because they recognise their bye- 63 laws are out of date. No doubt here you get strict compliance with your bye-laws. The Town Planning Act gives the autho- rities opportunities to be honest with the bye-laws. It enables you practically to have the force of a local Act for any particular district. You can vary your bye-laws as to width of street and other method. I did not come up prepared to enter into a discussion. I came up to learn, so I will not take your time any further than to suggest one or two possibilities. In the neigh- bourhood of London there is a particular method of getting over existmg bye-laws which have existed for the last 7 or 8 years, with regard to the building of tenements where party walls of 4^ inches have been allowed, which in the case of an ordinary dwelling would have had to be at least 9 inches in thickness. It is at least an open question as to whether such a procedure is uniform with the bye-laws, but it has been done. Immedi- ately outside the County Council area the same point arose with regard to houses built by that authority. The local authority in which the houses were being built immediately raised the question that this was contrary to bye-laws, referred it to Local Government Board who said it was. We have thus the curious condition of affairs, one part of London evading bye-laws of another part outside of their area. There are a good many cases in which it is desirable to modify the bye-laws. Germany has a new law made which makes it possible to have one set of laws applying to high buildings, and another set applying to low buildings. Though we should all agree it is necessary to have a certain amount of elasticity in whatever we have in the way of laws there should he some method of appeal in case of any hardship felt. That is possible to provide under the provisions of the Town Planning Act. I do not think I need say any more with regard to question 1, Mr. Newton (Warrington). — There is one rather important point. I have a letter from the Local Government Board sug- gesting that the bye-laws not recently made are often entirely restricted, and might be more elastic. Mr. J. W. Wilson (Surveyor, Bolton-on-Dearne). — Is it our friend's contention that a bye-law can be over-ridden ? I specifically mention that because in the County Council housing schemes in London, which we went to see, the county council were building houses with a 9 inch party wall every third house. Everybody else had to put a 9 inch wall between each house. I want to know if it was the same bye-law they were working under, and if so, does it mean that council has option of framing special bye-laws to suit its own convenience ? Mr. W. R. Davidge. — I think I had better answer the question. They are built as you say — the contention is that 64 the wall is not a party wall. It is one house divided into two tenements, one tenement house. But others in other parts of London have not done so. One authority regards it as party wall, one does not. The county council people think it is entirely necessitous to allow such flats to be built. Mr. Stafford (Blackburn). — On this matter I think we ought to be careful. Do I understand our friend to advocate that we shall go back to the old rule of 4^ inch division wall between cottages ? In Lancashire we do not go in for the tenement system. We do not want to have 4 inch walls, thus going back 50 years. We all know that certain ratepayers have certain powers. They go amongst our council, and sometimes get elasticity that officials do not agree with. I do hope that the bye-laws will be worked up to — do not get lax in the old bye-laws. If they are too severe let the Local Government Board revise them. A Delegate — There is one question with regard to bye- laws. I should like to have an opinion as to the construction of wide roads. In many cases the land will be given, being agricul- tural land and only worth about 6d. a yard. The road, when constructed, will be charged on the rates, with the result that in a short time the rates will have been increased so much, that the rents of the cottages or buildings will be increased. Mr. S. A. Kelly. — In the north land is not so valuable as in London, and one has to allow for that in London practice. The landowner wiU say, "If you want land what concessions am I to have ? " I think we touched a little on that yesterday afternoon in one of the main questions with regard to lay out of land of the Town Planning scheme. Mr. Newton. — I have at the present moment a set of bye- laws half arranged by the Local Government Board — a set of new street bye-laws. I have got stuck with that set, because I cannot quite make out any special use for them. I can see it will be of great use to the district, but I must confess that what we had at the back of our heads in trying to get that concession we should be able to hold them out to landowners. It strikes me now if you get those bye-laws it is rather difficult to use them openly, and I should like to know if they can be used in any way, because it seems difficult in Town Planning to make any proper use of them. Mr. J. A. Wright (Surveyor, Great Crosby, Liverpool). — Would an urban authority be justified in making bye-laws in Town Planning schemes ? Mr. W. R. Davidge. — Yes ; it is contemplated in the Town Planning Act and the regulations. 65 Mr. Newton. — The question as to whether it is able to make them openly does not look another way of saying the local authority admits its present bye-laws as being ineffective. Mr. W. R. Davidge. — I quite agree that you must have definite guiding bye-laws. I have mentioned one or two things in the south of England. Once you get the Town Planning Act you can put in that scheme almost anything you like. It must not be understood that I was advocating special method of construction — I was just giving as an example what has been done. I do not advocate getting over bye-laws, but you find in every town people who are trying to get over the bye-laws, and therefore it is better to have behind you hard and fast regulations . Mr. J. Bowes (Newton Heath, Manchester). — On this question of the regulations of bye-laws it appears to me that the advantage of such a poAver of making concession to the landlord lies in this — first of all, for getting concession from the landlord and then it enables you to compensate him also for dimmution of number of houses per acre. You have to consider whether a cheaper constructed road will not entail future expense in maintenance, and this is where it is permissible to have cheaper road — when it is for a district that has been approved for construction of a Town Planning scheme. Mr. Jones (City Surveyor, Chester). — I think if the Town Planning Act is going to allow you to make certain reductions in the construction of your roads, it is the ratepayers generally who will pay in the finish. In Chester we have standard specifications for making roads under Street Acts for a number of years. We are considering Town Planning schemes and also housing schemes. My committee wish me to make cheaper roads than we have been in the habit of doing. I am personally against this, because it is the surveyor who is to be pulled over the coals if the roads do not stand the traffic. If surveyors give way to make cheaper constructed roads, the surveyors will be blamed in the end. I certainly think our roads should be kept up to the mark. It is a very difficult thing for any surveyor to say when he lays out a district whether this is going to become a quick traffic district or not in 20 years time, and I think surveyors should stick out for good solid roads, and let us pay for them and in the end the ratepayers will reap the benefit. Mr. J. W. Wilson (Bolton-upon-Dearne). — I entirely differ from our friend. I believe in making roads appropriate for the purpose they are to be used at the present time, and the next generation can do something towards its thoroughfares. Under the Act the general application for Town Planning purposes would give council power to control the width and construction 66 of roads. They would have the right under the Act to control traffic on that road, see you get control of your roads. We in Bolton-on-Dearne have made light roads, and have made foot- paths of grass. Delegate. — I do not quite agree with the last speaker. I do not think he has power to put in Town Planning schemes such roads to carry through traffic. Delegate. — In reply to the last speaker, if Town Planning had been in force 50 years ago, we should not have these con- ferences to-day. If you make cheaper roads you have cheaper houses. If you make cheaper roads the builder will give more land to the houses. I like to agree with everybody if I can. Perhaps I did not make myself quite clear before. The last speaker is speaking of main roads. When I advocated a cheaper class of road I had in my mind a road that cannot take through traffic because there is no road out. In dealing with Town Plannmg you have to bear m mind that planning means disposition of roads and disposition of property. Sup- posing you have a road across the end of that room — if the area be big enough you may have 30 houses in here, and you can never, so long as the disposition of property is arranged in that way, you can never have through traffic. Why should you wish to pay for a costly road in a locality like that ? It is intended only for residential purposes. Delegate (Blackburn). — I should like to say a few words on this matter. I quite agree with Mr. Jones that whatever roads are constructed must be thoroughl}' and satisfactorily made, and be able to stand either a traction engine or anything. To-day it may be a private road — to-morrow a road leading to very heavy works. \ATiatever Town Planning you have to- day, mills or works will have to be placed in those areas. A man who is going to his work at 6 in the morning, if he lives 4 or 5 miles away he must leave at 5. He cannot run to the expense of two shillings a week for tram fares. Think of the time when the cotton trade of Lancashire can be as healthy as in a garden. Electricity is coming into use for both spinning and weaving. Our arterial roads must be strongly constructed. When we come to private roads there is no reason why those should be more than macadam roads. If we go in for poorer roads it will come upon the surveyor. There will be increase of rates. Look at the present time what it has cost in districts round here to uphold the highways, on account of heavy traffic. Much traffic that used to come by rail now goes along the road and comes through the town. I think a lot of our country friends lose sight of that. I once took the traffic coming from Preston to Blackburn for a month, and I found 67 that 75 per cent, of the traffic coming from that main road was going through Blackburn. Whatever you do put plenty of foundation in your road. If you do not do so, you will regret it after. Mr. C. F. WiKE (City Engineer and Surveyor, Sheffield). — • I should like to explain what we are doing in Sheffield. We must have roads made of good solid construction. What we are aiming at is this — the main roads should be 80 feet wide, and while urging landowners to make them this width, the main concessions to them will be made in subsidiary streets. What we are discussing with landowners is the proportion of the cost they will bear for such streets. Mr. Wilson (Manchester). — I should like to say on behalf of Manchester that our building bye-law as regards streets is 14 yards wide, and if for main throughfares more than one- quarter of mile in length of which owner is compelled to make 50 feet wide in further widths we expect to pay for 40 feet and the owner the balance of the cost of such streets. It is a very expensive mode of completing the street. We have got in our new bye-laws these new widths of 42 feet and 50 feet for main roads. I quite agree that main arterial roads should be thoroughly well built and engineered and completed leading from one district to another, and are of such great importance that we should have these roads thoroughly well made to-day. Our people in Manchester think we are odd in making every owner pave his street and complete it with setts to a 14-yard width ; but we have all along in these conferences said to people who have attended that we must have streets paved to take heavy traffic in Manchester ; but they do put this question to you : " What is the landlord going to do towards the extra cost of such works ? If you have 80-feet streets, who will pay for the land ? " We have thrown out as a sop that it is the intention in our Town Planning scheme to have a scheme by which subsidiary roads might be both narrow and built Tip on light foundations, and I agree that these kinds of roads can never possibly be called roads that would be likely to have very heavy traffic on it. If we give the owners of land some assistance in selling land and getting it covered with buildings , we expect them to assist us. We have come to the decision that the maximum number of houses should be not more than 20, including street land. The bye-laws of a few years ago allowed us to put 39 to the acre. They now want to know how it will pay when they can only put 20 instead of 39. Mr. Oscar J. Kirby (Surveyor, Batley). — With regard to roads which you are not quite certain about as to whether they will be main roads in the future, of course it is difficult for any of us to know what to do. I would suggest this, that 68 the middle of the road be constructed with a good strong foundation and the sides with h'ghter. The traffic will keep in the middle of the road — that is, this would not go on the lighter construction, and so far you would have the road ready for another day provided you had to make it of greater width for heavy traffic. If you keep the traffic going in the middle all the time and enlarge the road width when convenient, put middle 18 inches deep, but keep haunches of light con- struction. Mr. F. W. Platt (Borough Engineer, Salford). — We are getting a little wide — it is the general application of the Town Planning Act. When you make a Town Planning scheme, prepare for three things — back streets, front streets, and buildings. Determine where the main streets are going, then determine the number of buildings to acre, afterwards fill in details. You may make special regulations for each particular area. Obviously a district with 10 houses to the acre would require a different set of regulations to the district with 20 to the acre. Certain regulations will apply. For instance, if you have a factory, you require certain strength of wall. Domestic buildings of certain height require certain thickness of wall. But the point is, if you are in trouble about your existing bye-laws and you have a Town Planning scheme, then make your bye-laws applicable to areas in your own scheme. Why trouble about making up roads in final form when first made ? You have your private street works. Why not omit anything but matters dealing with width of street and depth of street ? Now there is one point a speaker made — he said, if you have a crescent or any road made under Town Planning schemes, it is never likely to be a through road. When once a Town Planning scheme is made, you cannot change your road. Now as to the application of present bye-laws to areas about to be included in a Town Planning scheme. Take Salford. We adjoin Manchester, but I think we can claim to be better than Manchester in some respects. He has told us the main roads only need to be 50 feet wide ; Salford make them 54 feet wide — a very great advantage to any borough. Alderman Wilson has told us that the question of position is that of dividing between smaller streets and wider streets. Within the last two months I have had before me plans for the development of a comer site of land ; this was in the form of an equilateral triangle. The man who submitted these plans said: " I want to put 190 houses on this plot of land." The Committee told me to approach him. The Salford Council have dispensing power which is, we may reduce the width of these secondary streets from 54 feet to 42 feet or as the case may be to any width Council may deem necessary under 69 certain conditions. My Committee came to the conclusion that these three main roads being there we could do something to induce the builder to reduce the number of houses to the acre. We got the space we wanted. We showed the builder he could reduce his houses from 42 to 25 houses per acre, and save a considerable amount by reducing the street works. Mr. J. A. Wright (Great Crosby). — I am a surveyor — I should hate dispensing power. I like to know where I am and not be pulled about. Delegate. — I come from a milling district. Suppose you have two parallel main streets or main arteries which ought to be strongly constructed ; it very frequently happens that the connecting streets are at right angles, and you can never tell which will lead to a mill. It is not possible to lay a whole district out especially in mill district, and the difficulty is that although a mill may not exist now, in 10 years' you do not know where it may be. Unless we get power to prevent heavy motors from using these light roads, we are never going to be certain that heavy traffic will not go down, because it will alwaj^s take the nearest course. It seems very dangerous to lighten the construction of streets. Mr. C. F. WiKE. — I think there is one point Mr. Piatt has overlooked when he says it is not necessary to consider construction of roads until the roads are ready to be finished. I may say, in Sheffield, as Mr. Marsh has told you, we have a standard of 80 feet for main road. We make concessions, not as to the strength and construction of the road itself, but as to the width of roads and footpaths, and we have made concessions to landowners on this basis ; but in all these cases that has been the point to begin with, whether you will make us pay for the roads before giving you the roads. Delegate. — When the roads are finished is the time to discuss final points. Mr. W. W. Shennan (Surveyor to Wirral R.D.C.).— My experience as surveyor to the Wirral Rural District Council with regard to the Town Planning Act in reference to existing bye-laws is that I have now the plans all ready to submit to Local Government Board and draft prepared. The only difference we have made with regard to alteration of bye-laws has been not the depth of roads and construction but the widths of various types of roads. As regards building bye-laws, we have not interfered only as regards that debatable question of " What is a sewer ? " As regards width of roads, we have made some difference. We purpose in one or two roads to lay them out 60 feet wide, and what has been suggested is that as our bye-laws only provide 70 for roads 36 feet wide, the owner pays for the construction of 30 feet road and sewering, and anything extra the local authority pays, but not at the time when the road is first laid out. Now the question comes whether it would not be advisable to utilise money on such road works in a rural district. Those are the difficulties that are up against small rateable districts. But, of course, in Liverpool, Birming- ham, &c., money is no object. Mr. Stilgoe was asked in his construction of roads in one district how he meant to get the mone}', but I notice he evaded a reply, and that is the question I have to consider. Wliere are we going to get the money from in the first case ? It is far better to get as wide a road as you possibly can and construct it for present traffic, and then when the time comes spend money on finally making it up. Mr. S. A. Kelly. — I think one point has been rather missed — that is the question of four houses to acre district, where the road works will be of the lightest description. I should say in Liverpool, speaking of large roads, the practice is that the Corporation purchases the land for these at a nominal sum, about one shilling a yard. When 84 feet of land is purchased the Corporation lay out the street works required for a 40 feet street, 24 feet carriage-way, and 8 feet paths; then le\y the cost of such works on owner and recover it as the building frontage is developed. I think that is a very safe plan, and it has led to the development of Queen's Drive throughout the city. Delegate. — In that money laid out b}- Liverpool Cor- poration, have the Corporation borrowing power or is it out of revenue ? Mr. S. A. Kelly. — Out of revenue. Mr. W. R. Davidge. — I think we will take two and three together. The Town Planning Act has not been long enough in operation for us to tell what its effect will be. My opinion with regard to this is that once the land owners are assured they can do certain things with their property, they will feel a little freer. I think building operations will go on more freely than they have done. As regards effect on question of price. We all know the effect on price in Germany where combination of circumstances have managed to run up the price of building land tre- mendously. But, of course, the difference of conditions between this country and Germany are very considerable. They are used to larger buildings, and we to our 2-storey buildings. So long as we keep to two storeys the price of land cannot go far. Germans, by fixing the price of land, have made houses four or five storeys high. A high price for land makes 71 high building. So far as we are concerned, I think that that is broadly speaking what has been the effect. Building opera- tions will be carried on more freely than in the past. Three. I take it that by limitation of houses per acre will lead first of all to extending the area of towns more rapidly than in the past. On the other hand, by limiting number of houses a man can put on his plot of land to that extent, you are probably lowering the price of land. Alderman Marsh (Chairman of Town Planning Committee, Sheffield). — It is very difficult to know whether it is the effect of the Town Planning Act on building operations or the recent legislation that building has practically decreased by 75 per cent, within our district. We have only built 550 houses within the last three years. I think it is partly due to the Town Planning Act that the builder has been stopped as, naturally, whereas he could build 40 houses to the acre noAv he can onlj" put 25 houses per acre, he cannot see any profit. Then, again, as to price of land, it appears to me that practically that also has got to be reduced. The builder looks upon it if he has to put only 20 houses per acre he naturally cannot afford to pay as much for his land as the frontage for each house will be more. If the owner wishes to bring land into the market, he must at the present time accept a reduced price. Mr. S. B. Edwards (Liverpool). — If certain land is scheduled as factories or docks, would price be increased, and in that case would betterment be claimed ? Mr. W. R. Davidge. — I should say extremely doubtful, but a case well worth considering. I should like legal opinion. Mr. S. A. Kelly. — I think with regard to the question " Effect of Town Planning Act on Price of Land," we all agree with Mr. Davidge that the Act has not been in operation long enough to know what the effect will be. I think as regards the effect of the Town Planning Act on the price of land it is certain, as he says, that by bringing more land into operation for build- ing purposes by reason of limitation of houses per acre, it will tend to decrease the price of land outside developed towns. Again, the traffic communication will be a great thing in the future developments, because if you can as readily take your people five miles by tram out of the centre of the city into a garden suburb, you will find that they will as soon go there as go by slow-traveUing steam railways. That will tend to bring outside land into operation, and that will give the builder an opportunity of giving plenty of land to his houses without upsetting his financial status. Mr. W. R. Davidge. — I think we will take questions 4 and 5 together. Every city wants to extend its boundaries, and every 72 county borough will do the same. I think we can learn a point here again with regard to German examples, and that is, that we always like to run our trams on heavy setts. Of course this is very necessary if you have other heavy traffic. In Germany they run their trams on grass. I find another point which the Germans adopted, which also has something worth thinking over. They have state tram-roads, which are tram lines which connect different towns. Immediately they get to the last house in the town these trams assume more speed — 30 or 40 miles per hour is allowed outside the town. The light railway and the trams run in conjunction. The light railway allows people to come straight into the town, and as soon as they come into the town they get into the ordmary railway. Two points — running on grass and light railway proposal. Delegate. — I should like to know what city has tramway tracks on grass ? Mr. W. R. Davidge. — We are misunderstanding each other. You are thinking of tramway track as we knoAv it in Manchester or Liverpool. But in other parts where something on the line of the German type exists, formed by a track on the side of road, if you have grass margin, electric tram traffic might make use of it. Mr. J. M. L. Bogle (Liverpool Corporation). — In Liverpool there is under construction now a length of road some two miles in length, 120 feet wide, where the method has been adopted of running the tramway on separate piece of road. One other point in connection with the Town Planning Act and city extension. That is, at a certain big enquiry this question of Town Planning and city extension came into question. I think it was brought out that it was better that a big authority should undertake Town Planning schemes, than that a series of small authorities around a town should undertake Town Planning schemes. Alderman Marsh. — I think there are several other places where there are such tramways. I take it these sleepers must have sound foundations. I do not think towns should make an excuse to extend their boundaries because of town plans. The previous speaker has just mentioned that larger authorities have bigger views than smaller authorities. I do not agree with him. Mr. W. R. Davidge. — I think if I might just add a word. I was at the Local Government Board yesterday, and Mr. Samuel made a most interesting statement which I think you will be interested to hear — that was as regards finance there was no need for local authorities to worry themselves because the Government intends to issue a measure in which the 73 Government will take a larger share of responsibility. Govern- ment intends to assume a much larger share of responsibility in respect to main roads. Mr. S. Kelly. — It would be much better throughout the county when Town Planning schemes were being considered by the various authorities for the whole of the interested councils to meet and to come to some working arrangement, so that they could get not only the road made to the extent of their boun- daries, but prolonged through urban and rural areas. I think there was a suggestion at Manchester to have a conference of this kind — I do not know if SaKord has fallen into line — but it seems to me very necessary when you have two or three large towns in close proximity to one another. Mr. Davidge. — We will take the last question now. As you know, the Local Government Board have not been so kind with regard to Town Planning as to some other subjects, and Birken- head have had a very nasty set-back recently. In London we strictly limit the powers of our local authorities. In Germany every town has a land fund of some sort, and the mayor buys land right and left till he has bought several thousands of acres. It is an interesting fact that nearly all German towns are acquiring land on a very rapid scale. They are contmuaUy not only buying, but selling, and selling at a profit. If they are going to make a tramway, the mayor buys land not only for the tramway, but for buildmg, for this will become valuable. However, much as we might like to do this, we cannot, as we have only the Town Planning Act. It may be possible to do something on these lines. It will be interesting to hear the views of the meeting. Delegate. — Could anyone tell us the extent of the Liver- pool Corporation estate ? Mr. S. A. Kelly. — I am sorry to say there is no representa- tive from the surveyor's department. The city engineer's department is well represented, but there is no representative from the surveyor's department. From my experience as ratepayer I say that the estate is a valuable asset to the city. The system of renewal of leases on the estate has been a matter of recent investigation, and I believe the city surveyor is about to publish his report. The Corporation have only power to grant 75 years' leases. The Corporation of Liverpool have invested their surplus funds in certain lands outlying the city, and in one parish alone they are the largest owners m that district (Fazakerley), where land was sold to them for about £250 an acre. Some land has been developed for hospitals, but other of the land at the present time is simply let for allotment gardens, &c., which may be made to 74 pay — £8 per acre being paid for them. As to what use they will be put to in the future I am unable to say. Delegate (Derby). — It might be of interest to know that the Corporation of Derby did try last year in a local Bill to get an Act of Parliament, allowing them to purchase land, but it was thrown out. 75 FOURTH SESSION LEGAL ISSUES UNDER THE TOWN PLANNING ACT March 10th. Evening at 7.30 p.m.. Chairman: H. CHALONER DOWDALL, B.C.L., Barrisier-at-Law. Questions. — 1. The application of the Act to dilapidated or hadly-developed areas. 2. Public control of plans and elevations. 3. The practical working of the Betterment Clauses. 4. To what extent, if any, might the procedure Regulations with advan- tage he simplified ; with special reference to their legal com- petence. 5. The need for some General Provision. 6. A com- parison of Special Provisions of Schemes already approved. Mr. Chaloner Dowdall. — I am not familiar with the procedure of these gatherings, because, I am sorry to say, I was not able to be here this afternoon or on Monday when there were similar gatherings. I think, however, that I shall be in order in making a few observations on a few of the sub- jects to be discussed to-night, and then if any one will make their observations or ask questions, I shall be glad to answer if I can do so, and if not perhaps you will answer one another. The first question relates to " The Application of the Act to Dilapidated or Badly-Developed areas." The provisions of the Act are that where it is made to appear to the Local Government Board (Section 54, Sub-section 3) that a piece of land already built upon, or a piece of land not hkely to be used for building purposes, is so situated that it ought to be included in any Town Planning scheme, the Board may authorise the preparation of a scheme including such piece of land and providing for the demolition or alteration of any building thereon so far as may be necessary. That, so far as I know, is the only clause of the Act under which one could proceed in relation to a dilapidated or badly-developed area. You will notice that if you take a piece of land A\hich is just badly developed or in a ruinous condition, you cannot make a Town Planning scheme with reference to that and that alone. If you want to do anything to land in those circumstances, you have got either to promote a housing scheme, if that is the requirement, or you would have to promote an Improvement Act. To deal with land already developed 76 under the Town Planning Act it must form an annex to unde- veloped land. When you have got undeveloped land, you may extend the line you have put round it so as to include developed land, but you cannot take land that is developed and make a line round that because that is not provided for by the Act. Many people think it would be good if you could do this, and though it cannot be done you can go very near it. I think the Twickenham scheme included very little undeveloped land. Of course, if buildings are pulled down, then that is land that is in course of being developed so far as it is going to be re- constructed. You have got a clear site. A question might -arise if land was in a very bad condition and some one said : ^' This neighbourhood is bound to come down, and because the houses are likely to be pulled down and it is likely, after that has happened, that the land will be developed, therefore the land is under process of development." That might be said, but I do not think it would hold water. Practically my own view is this, that where land is badly developed or houses in a dilapidated condition and there is land adjoining which is in process of development, then it would be competent to include that badly-developed land within the Town Planning scheme and use the machinery of the Town Planning Act in order to reconstruct ; but if the land is fully developed and does not adjoin land which is in process of development, then Ave must proceed either by a housing scheme, if that is what is wanted, or if not by private Act of Parliament — an improve- ment Act. If any of you gentlemen will make observations or ask questions, I shall be glad, if I am able, to answer them. Mr. T. 0. Nash (Birmingham). — I take it, sir, if you include a built-up area within your scheme, you can thin it out until you reduce it to 15 or 12 per acre. You can also reduce it by carving lumps out of it. Mr. Dow^DALL. — I do not know what has already been actually proposed, but the Act certainly includes power to demolish. ^Ir. Nash. — Without compensation ? Mr. DowDALL. — Oh, no ! You have got to pay compen- sation for demolition, and if you demolish under the Town Planning Act, none of the special provisions of the Housing Acts which diminish the amount of compensation for insanitary and overcrowded property would apply. At least, that is my impression, though as I have not looked up the point, I give my opinion with reserve. They say that the breath of an unfeed lawyer is worth nothing. Of course, when once the area is cleared the general pro- visions of the Act as to compensation for restricting the number of houses in the reconstruction scheme would apply. 77 Mr. Nash. — This point has been raised two or three times- in connection with building upon areas . Mr. DowDALL. — No scheme has come to compensation yet. Mr. Nash. — The point has been raised as a general point. Mr. Dowdall. — A specific point of that kind would have to be considered. My view is that so far as demolition goes you pay full compensation ; but when you have demolished the buildings, then it becomes a reconstruction scheme, and because a scheme imposes limitations as regards the number of buildings to the acre I should think that compensation would not be payable if the Local Government Board thmks the limitations reasonable. Have you heard any argument that it should ? Mr. Nash.— No. Mr. W. R. Davidge (District Surveyor, Lewisham). — Suppose the case of an existing road. The road is 40 feet wide. The land on each side is partly commenced with forecourt shops. The front gardens belonging to houses on this land are therefore likely to be used for building. Is it possible under the present Act to include those front gardens in a Town Planning scheme and so secure a road widening by that means ? Mr. DowDALL. — I think there are two arguments which might be urged for including front gardens in the scheme.. First, because the road must be widened, and secondly, because people are threatening to build upon the land. My opmion would be that either ground might be sufficient. Certainly anyone would advance both grounds because both are reason- able arguments. Mr. Shennan (Surveyor, Wirrall R.D.C.). — In reference ta that, Mr. Chairman, may I mention a case that occurred in the Wirral scheme where we included a churchyard. Our reason why we included the churchyard was that we wanted to take some land off to widen the road. Mr. DowDALL. — That is very much to the point, and, as I say, I think that the necessity for a road widening is a good reason for including developed land in a scheme, though the decision of the Local Government Board in, if I remember rightly, the Bournemouth application, shows that the Board will not allow a Town Planning scheme to be promoted merely for the purpose of reducing the cost of a street widening. A Town Planning scheme must be substantially a Town Planning scheme and not merely a street widening scheme ; but when once a Town Planning scheme is being properly promoted the fact that it is necessary to widen a street through developed land is, I think, a good reason for including such developed land in the scheme. 78 Mr. F. W. Platt (Borough Engineer, Salford). — Supposing there is an area already developed and which will develop more, the character of which is likely to change, and is so situated in relation to land not already buUt upon, is it essential that it should be actually contiguous to the land which has not been built upon ? Mr. DowDALL. — I think that you would have to make it contiguous. I imagine that you can jerry-mander. You re- member how the word " jerry-mander " arose, and it might be possible to jerry-mander in that sense a Town Planning scheme. Mr. P. W. Platt. — Here is an area with houses for £100 a year rental rapidly changing, and houses being buUt upon it at a rental of £35 a year. Is it essential that it should actually adjoin land which is not developed in order to form the basis of a Town Planning scheme ? Houses are coming down. Would it be feasible for the site to be included in a Town Planning scheme ? Mr. DowDALL. — I see no reason against it. The land is being developed and is none the less bemg built upon, because the site was previously occupied by buildings which have been demolished. Delegate (Stockport). — Suppose there are houses of large rental with big gardens in front say 30 feet in length, and a street widening would reduce the length of the gardens to something like 18 feet. I should like to know what the position would be in a case of that kind. Mr. DowDALL. — If the Local Government Board alloAv the scheme, the only question would be one of compensation. You are doubtless referrmg to the Stockport case which I well remember, as I appeared for some of the parties at the enquiry. In that case the whole district was unquestionably in course of development, and the question of widening roads here or there was most important. If the Local Government Board sanction a street widening, although the frontagers may not like it, they must put up with it, subject, of course, to their several oppor- tunities for objection and subject also to compensation. We wiU now go on to question 2 on the programme " Public Control of Plans and Elevations." (Read section 59.) The question is whether through a Town Planning scheme it would or would not be possible to control plans and elevations. I think it must be clear that every landowner supposes himself capable of developing his land to the best advantage, and might be inclined to say that if beauty and uniformity of elevation would pay him he would adopt it without compulsion, thereby laying the foundation of an argument in favour of compensation for any restrictions imposed upon him in the matter of plans and 79 elevations. It may be that the Local Government Board would be reluctant at the present time to interfere in the matter. The actual words of the Act however, seem to authorise the control of elevations, and cases may very easily arise where it is so obviously for the general benefit to obtain some fairly uniform or concerted scheme of elevation that the Local Government Board may be inclined, especially as opinion ripens in the matter, to exercise their powers under the Act. Mr. Parker (Liverpool Corporation). — Provisions such as you refer to have already been passed in a Town Planning scheme and worded somewhat as follows : "That any elevations facing a certain street are to be submitted to the City survej^or for approval." Mr. W. R. Davidge. — My recollection of that scheme was that it should be submitted to an architect. Mr. Parker. — I only quote it from memory. Mr. W. R. Davidge. — The Ruislip scheme, I think. Delegate. — The Ruislip scheme has not yet been published by the Local Government Board, but it is to be published in a fortnight. Mr. Dowdall. — There was not, so far as I remember, any such provision in the Ruislip scheme in the shape in which I have seen it, but I have not seen it in its present form. Mr. Thomas Mawson (Lancaster). — I think we are not likely to be troubled very much by that particular question in the future. Take the city or town — they have had their powers in their private acts to regulate height of buildings, but never put the powers into operation. There is so little regard paid to height of buildings. It is a question, of course, that is vital to France, Germany, America, and other countries where architecture is understood and practised. I do wish we could come to some point of agreement, because until we arrive at alignment of street w^e cannot do much. You will remember there was a very great attempt made to control the ahgnment of the Kingsway in London. But this was so much opposed that the London County Council had to drop their scheme. Mr. Dowdall. — Do you mean that the council applied for parliamentary power to control the elevations proposed by owners other than themselves ? Of course if you have got the site you can do what you like. You can sell the land subject to conditions controlling the elevations, but if you have not got the land two things are possible. You must either try to obtain special parliamentary powers or you must try to use the Town Planning Act. With Kingsway they were not apply- ing the Town Planning Act, so if they wanted to do this I 80 suppose they were trying to obtain parliamentary powers. Can you tell me what they did ? Mr. Thomas Mawson (Lancaster). — They had to abandon the idea. The point is this — that you cannot get six English- men to put up 6 buildings alike in one street. Mr. W. R. Davidge. — It is not the first attempt. The Act of 1668, after the Fire of London, prescribed all new buildings in London should be built with even roofs. Mr. J. W. Wilson (Bolton-upon-Dearne). — A man can build his house as he likes, but must not go beyond the building line. I think it is incongruous that each of 10 successive men in a street may build to the height he likes. A man comes and saj'^s, " I want mine that wa}^," and he does it. This should not be possible under the To%vn Planning Act. Delegate. — It is absolutely' impossible, with the English mind as it is, to get control of elevation in a scheme. It is a terrible thing to state, but I think those who are architects here will agree. Now if that is so, what can you expect from members of the council mIio have to be advised by one man ? In a great city it is possible to have a trained architect but how many small boroughs would care to place in the hands of their chief officials architectural designs. I am afraid there will have to be a great improvement in the knowledge of archi- tecture before we can get a set of regulations governing eleva- tions under the Town Planning scheme. Mr. Do WD ALL. — The English solution would be to build houses according to a concerted scheme, and to show that it pays to do so. Delegate. — I should like to say that I should imagine many boroughs have in their hands power to limit height. We have had bye-laws in force for a long time, but in recent years they have been altered for greater height. The height allowed by the Act is the width of the street. Mr. H. Grayson (Liverpool). — I think it is more detrimental to have one building lower than others than to have one build- ing higher than others. If there be regulation in height, have a minimum as well as a maximum. Mr. Dowdall. — Heading 3 in the programme — " Practical Workmg of Betterment Clauses." There has not been any practical workmg of the betterment clauses. I may say that I am not responsible for the di'afting out of the programme. No scheme has yet come to the compensation stage. If we are going to speculate as to how the betterment provisions will work there is really very little to guide us beyond the Act itself, for any decisions on the provisions of a different Act differently worded are not of much assistance. 81 On the whole matter of compensation under the Town Planning Act we are still in the dark, but the way the thing strikes me is this — You take a certain area and apply a Town Planning scheme to it, that ought not in itself to depreciate the value of the property as a whole. If a large estate is in private ownership the owner often subjects the estate to restrictive covenants, which are a kind of private Town Plan- ning scheme, and of course he does so in order to mcrease the value of the estate. But when a Town Planning scheme includes the land of several owners, the land of one may be increased in value and the land of another decreased, and it follows that the one ought to pay to some extent for the other, and each landowner seeking compensation or resisting better- ment will have to consider the difference between what would be the value of his piece of land if the use of the whole land included in the scheme were unrestricted thereby, and the value of the same piece of land having regard to the fact that the lay-out of his land and the adjoining land is controlled and restricted by the scheme. Mr. T. Mawson. — Last night we had shown on a plan for Birmingham to acquire land on both sides, but one knows in a case like that there must be considerable betterment. I remember trying to acquire a plot of land, and some builder got wind of it and bought the lot. I know of another case where the Corporation bought land, 125 acres at Is. 3d. a yard, and sold the lot at an average of 4s. 9d. per yard, owing to the fact that you had this 80 acres in the middle. Mr. H. O. Burroughs. — If land is required for hospital, sewerage works, or cemeteries, would any compensation be paid to adjoining landowners ? Mr. DowDALL. — I do not see why they should not be com- pensated if the scheme brings anything offensive into immediate proximity. With reference to the fourth heading — we all know the new regulations are now out, and I expect you have all read them, so that I think there is no great advantage m going into the matter. We probably all agree that the formal conferences of people interested have not been very successful and can well be done away with. For it generally happened either that the promoters were communicative on these occasions and regretted it, or they were not communicative and made everyone present angry by their reticence. Unless anyone has any modification to suggest for consideration we will pass on at once to heading No. 5 on the programme which relates to general provisions. General provisions are undoubtedly wanted, but the Local Government Board are, no doubt, wise in not issuing any until 82 experience has matured. A Town Planning scheme is in effect a private Act of Parliament, and I suppose that the general provisions will occupy in regard to a Town Planning scheme, the same position which the various Clauses Consolidation Acts occupy towards the different categories of private Acts of Parliament. If, however, anyone considers the great volume of experience which had, decade after decade, accumulated in the committee rooms of the Houses of Parliament before the Clauses Consolidation Acts were passed, they will realise that no general provisions can be drafted with anything like the same certainty until some time has elapsed and many concrete proposals considered. As it appears that no one has any question to ask or matter to raise under this head, it only remains for me to say that it is unnecessary to enter into detaUs of the schemes already ap- proved, because the Birmingham scheme has been already expounded with authority by Mr. Stilgoe, and to-morrow you will have the advantage of hearing what Mr. Abbott has to say on the Ruislip scheme in which he has borne so large a part. 83 FIFTH SESSION TOWN PLANNING UNDER THE ACT Wednesday Afternoon, March 11th, at 3 p.m. Chainmin : RAYMOND UNWIN, F.R.I.B.A. Questions. — 1. Need for further legislation for dealiiig with existing toivns, or amending the Town Planning Act. 2. The Town Planning Act and its effect on Road Grading. 3. The importance of jweserving Open Spaces. 4. Site planning, and its effect on Road planning. 5. Practical experience in new 'methods at Letchworth. 6. Practical experience in new methods at Hampstead. Mr. Raymond Unwin. — Your honoured secretary has suggested that I am going to read a paper. I do not think it will be a disappointment to you to see that I do not propose to do so. I think it will be more beneficial if I just say a few words on each of the headings, and then we will discuss them with short speeches or questions. Our first point for discussion is " The need for further legislation for dealing with existing towns, or amending the Town Planning Act." I would like to &s.y in justice to those who are responsible for the Town Planning Act that it does not by any means follow that because we begin to talk about amendment that we are dissatisfied with that Act, or criticising the form in which it was put. It is a fact, of course, that amendments maj^ be required for legislation for two reasons. First, because an Act may prove by experience to be defective on certain points ; but, secondly, because the ver}' fact of the success of the legislation enables you to go another stage further and take another step towards a more complete scheme than would have been possible at first. The Town Planning Act, I must say, I regard, in spite of criticism, as one of the most beneficial Acts that has been passed of recent j^ears and one of the most far-reaching. I believe it is destined to confer great distinction on the term of the Presidency of the Local Government Board that has just been terminated by Mr. John Burns, and I am sure if he has the opportunit}^ to do another piece of work as beneficial to the country in his new office he will indeed deserve well of the country. I would like to say with regard to suggested further legislation for dealing with existing towns, there the Act Avas wise in the first instance in centring our attention on land undeveloped and where expensive alterations were not in- volved. We are all beginners in this country and learners in the matter of Town Planning. If we had been at once set to working out schemes in the centre of towns, Me should have 84 been as it were putting our hands to the most difficult part of our work and where the shghtest mistake would have entailed the greatest expense. That has not been so ; we have been set to practice on undeveloped land lying aroimd the town where building is only beginning, and mistakes may be easily rectified. The experience we have gone through now makes us begin to talk of extending the benefits of the Act to the built-up towns. That does not mean we expect legislation to-morrow. Some considerable period will have to elapse before that time comes — it is certain some of our pioneer towns will be surrounded ere then with Town Planning schemes. Look at Birmingham. I think it is not too soon, then, for Town Planners to con- sider what is the best form for legislation to take to spread the benefits of ToAvn Planning over existing towns. I will only say with regard to this that there seem to me to be two main powers that we need. Fii'st of all, we want a means of laying down a plan which can be gradually worked up to, and which will have this authority, that nobody shall be permitted to erect any new buildmg on the planned area that would have to be pulled down to complete the plan or otherwise increase the cost of the plan by erecting new property. That is a good point for Parliamentary discussion. The second point is this — we seem to need some means of acquiring and dispensing with out-of-date property, something between the two extremes available now ; if property is very bad, you can consider the owner is not entitled to any consideration for the value of his buildings, you can condemn the buildings as unfit for habita- tion and pull down without compensation ; between that and the other extreme of buying them out, at a price really, if you come to think of it, based on the assumption that there is nothing wrong with these buildings. Between these two extremes there ought to be some middle way by which property that is below the good standard might, perhaps, be given a lease of life or be scheduled for purchase when necessary at a more moderate price, a price based on its condition and its relation on the one hand to good property, and on the other to property so bad that you consider it is not worthy of any compensation at all. If we could get some middle course in that way, it would be possible to deal with slum areas more effectively. We have further to consider the amending of the pre- sent Town Planning Act. Here I would say there are certain things we all feel in connection with that Act, that experience has shown might be facilitated in working. One is in connection with the adoption of owners' schemes. Under the Act itself there is no provision by which a scheme may be adopted by the Local Authority without the Authority taking 86 all the trouble, expense, and responsibility as if it had prepared a scheme of its own. That being so, it is not surprising that this part of the Act has been little used. I should like you to consider this afternoon whether any method can be suggested by which the more urgent and generally applicable points, perhaps the easier points, in Town Planning can be secured for wide areas with rather less pre- liminary notice and so forth. Nothmg of this sort can be done without an Amending Act. An Amending Act cannot be secured without considerable agitation. Therefore, I think we may take it that everyone in the country who is interested in land will have ample notice of any change made, and I think it would be quite safe, then, to have a sort of preliminary application of the Town Plannmg Act made general, sufficiently complete that building operations could go forward whilst the more difficult parts of the scheme were being built up. I cannot help feeling that there are certain things like stopping the congested development of dwelling areas, and the prevent- ing what is going on all over the country, the building up of existing highways, leaving such narrow roadways that everyone knows the buildings erected will have some day to be bought up to widen the road. If also some provision were made by which agreements could be entered into between Local Authorities and owners to allow development to go forward on lines satisfactory to the Local Authority, and that will be in accordance with the scheme when made ; if those agreements were sent up to the Local Government Board and approved merely for the purpose of avoiding possible abuse, and securing their supervision, I think that would greatly facilitate the early stages. Once we make the early stage more effective and allow for development taking place whilst later stages are being prepared, we need not have undue hurry in the later stages. Some of us have felt in the past that Town Planning schemes ought to be got through more quickly, but those who have had experience know that it is not easy to get negotiations with dozens of owners on matters involving difficult questions adjusted in a short time, or to study the probable facts of your area in such detail as to enable you to make a complete scheme. I think it would be well if the work could be done in stages, if we could begin with the construction of a skeleton Town Planning scheme, and then gradually the details could be filled in. There are matters it is very difficult to arrange a long way ahead of development, e.g., in some schemes shopping areas are fixed. It is quite possible when development takes place we may find we have been mistaken, and that they may have been placed where shopkeepers will decline to go. 86 I will now ask for short speeches on these points and on other points connected with to-day's subject. Mr. S. A. Kelly (Liverpool). — I should like to sa}' that I quite agree with your ideas that there should be some means of getting the Local Authority and the owner of the land to make an agreement prior to a scheme receiving sanction, so that by that means building should not be held up or land earmarked that cannot be used for the time being. It seems to me that where there is pressing need for houses in any neighbourhood it is very necessary that Local Authorities should be able to enter into an agreement pending adoption of a scheme. After that you have to deal with the allocation of your areas for dwelling-houses, &c., and you then have pretty well the required outline for your scheme ; it is very difficult to allocate shopping areas on a plan and say that shall be the shopping centre. We know that things of that sort are bound to go wrong, if done too soon ; we cannot anticipate the development that will take place. I support you that there should be some modification in the Act or amendment of the Act so that certain matters can be put in order at an early stage and so assist both the builder and Local Authorities to carry out their duties without waiting a con- siderable time for full sanction. A Delegate. — I think we all agree with the last speaker, and I think you have touched on some of the most vital points of the Act, but I take it the idea of this Conference is to get information as to whether anything can be done to overcome difficulties. I should like to know wiiether to stop this diffi- culty of holding up development anything can be done. I had in mind an o"\\Tier's estate, the owner submitting to the Local Authority a good scheme that would work in with the Local Authority's scheme. The Local Authority has applied to the Board for permission to prepare, but not received sanction yet. Under the owner's scheme the widths of roads are not in con- formity with bye-laws, but would well fit in. Application has been made to Local Government Board for relaxation of ex- isting bye-laws, and in certain cases permission has been given. But I like your idea of an agreement between owner and Local Authority for carrying out a scheme the owner may put forward. If there is no agreement and nothing to show that the owner's scheme has been adopted by Local Authorities, difficulties may arise with other owners as to interpretation of the existing bye-laws. I should be glad to know from you whether you can tell us if the Local Government Board in the first instance has agreed to relaxation of b^-e-laws, and if so, what is a mse course for the local authoritv to take. 87 Mr. Raymond Unwin. — The Local Government Board have in one or two cases expressed wiUingness for modified bye-laws to take effect in areas protected by Town Planning schemes, particularly in the matter of roads. I think you would have to reach the stage at which applica- tion for permission has been made, because that is the stage ordinarily fixed by the Local Government Board, after which anything that is done by an owner contrary to the scheme is done at his own risk : therefore the Local Authority has a control over the area which it had not before, they can e.g. practically limit the number of houses per acre to anything they like. That I think is the simplest method that is avail- able at the present moment. There is great advantage in that method. Informal and, strictly speaking, illegal agreements between the Local Authority and owner may be a bar to the financing of building operations : but if bj^e-laws are modified for the To\\Ti Planning area, then that difficulty is overcome, and I think the Local Government Board are more hkely to be favourable to that manner of dealing with the difficulty, particularly with regard to roads. Mr. Newton (Warrington). — I do not wish to say much. I have a new set of bye-laws which I have nearly got through with the Local Government Board, merely intending it for use in part of any district. They did suggest that they should cover several townships of my district, but not the whole of it. You seem to have been describing the ver}^ action we have taken. As far as we have gone we seem to have covered exactly the lines you have suggested. In a rural district surrounding a big town you have a great deal of shortly-to-be-developed land which has to be catered for. Boroughs that have not recently extended their bound- aries generally have plenty of money and nothing to do except what they would do under a private Act. A Rural Authority has a great deal of land which has to be catered for and no money to do it with. I think perhaps spending a Id. rate on a rural district may bring anything from £400, I think you could cover the whole of the ground as you suggest with Birmingham schemes. We consulted the Local Government Board, and came to the conclusion we would take a little bit off, but we still found we had immense areas we could not do wdthout. It seems a great duty for a rural council to undertake, which they ought to undertake, and therefore they can only cover that ground with a sort of pre- liminary scheme, which will be subject to manj^ alterations later on. You can fix the works areas and keep out offensive factories, arrange for open spaces and prevent congested 88 property commencing. That work can be done quickly. In our district we have had our first conference ; we have assured the persons interested at that conference that to prevent building being held up, we would commit ourselves at that point to not more than 20 houses per acre. I think a council can commit itself on its honour to certain things in the early stages ; and if builders have that assurance from a council it won't affect their building very much. A Delegate (Warrington). — In one case a certain estate was developed and they sent in their plans to the Council, and it was on Town Planning lines. The Corporation applied to the Local Government Board for a dispensation of bye-laws. The estate was developed on those lines, and since that time the Town Planning Act has come into force. I do not know whether that is at all to the subject at the moment, I think it may be of interest. In another area in the same district another individual wished to develop on Town Planning lines. At that time we approved the proposals, and the builder has already built over 40 houses on those particular lines, subject to the approval of the Council and the Town Planning scheme, although at the present time they have not got the sanction of the scheme. Mr. H. W. Taylor (Newcastle). — Would the last speaker kindly tell us the year when the first of the Town Planning schemes was sent to his Council ? Delegate (Warrington). — I should think three years ago. A Delegate (Birmingham). — It is very good news to hear rural people are moving in these matters and the outside parts of towns being dealt with, though I regret they are only Hmiting them to 20 to the acre. I quite agree with Mr. Unwin about the thing to be done at the moment. W^e have a Town Planning Act at the present moment dealing only with unbuilt-on land. In Birmingham, we have two schemes in operation, but we are not dealing with the intermediate area. We are leaving the intermediate areas for jerry-builders. Professor Adshead (Liverpool). — I should like to say that of the many points put forward for improving the Act, none is more important than that which is suggested for dealing with the preliminary stages. If we could only get a kind of preliminary stage, where large areas of land all round a town could be dealt with in regard to the main issues, it would prevent a great deal of unnecessary congestion and delays and so forth on OAvners. Mr. Stilgoe told us the other night that between the time of getting authoritj^ and approval, which I believe extended in Ruislip over four years, building operations are practically suspended. This is very serious. 89 A Delegate (Warrington). — I think that is the most important part of the present scheme. We have got an example of it. We have reached the advance stage in Warring- ton. Some time ago we consulted the landowners. They all consented that there should not be more than 20 houses to the acre, though some pointed out it would be to their loss. The Council passed the scheme afterwards ; but, un- fortunately, last night a special resolution was put down that the limitation was to be held in abeyance until we got the approval of the Local Government Board for our scheme, and this was carried. So now we are back in the position that they may build 45 houses to the acre. This shows how important your suggestion is that the Act ought to be altered so that we can definitely fix that. Mr. R. Unwin. — This action of your Council is not strictly legal. Delegate (Warrington). — Do you think if the Town Council has agreed to the erection of buildings the Local Government Board can really say to a builder, " You must pull this down ? " Mr. R. Unwin. — You are raising a very difficult position, in allowing within the area of the scheme so many houses to be built to the acre. Delegate (Warrington). — It only shows the necessity of this Act being amended in the way you suggest. Some argue that 45 to 20 is a big jump. We are in a very awkward position. Unless the Act is modified, I am afraid similar difficulties will arise in many places. Mr. Shawcross. — I should like to say a few words em- phasizing that point. You have both the good landowner and also the man out for his own gain only, and this will have to be most carefully watched if you are going to allow town councils to make agreements with landowners in this waj'. You will have people trying to get every advantage they can, and in return giving you a miserable five houses less to the acre. You have got to fight against that every way you can. I do think we have to be very careful on that point. Mr. R. Unwin. — I think Mr. Shawcross 's suggestion that there should be a minimum arranged with the Local Govern- ment Board is a very valuable suggestion. I am interested in the proceedings of the Rural District of Warrington, which seem to be rather peculiar. If I understand the circumstances correctly, they have applied for permission to make a Town Planning scheme. They have received permission, and there- fore anything that is done in that area in the shape of building is not subject to compensation if it contravenes the scheme. 90 They apparently, as a preliminary measure, suggested that the builders might go on working at 20 houses to the acre ; now they have given permission to builders to go on with the building of an}' number of houses to the acre. I am not sure the builders will not have some moral claim against the Council for passing that resolution, if any houses have to come down. It is a new point and a difficult point. We will now pass on to point No. 2 — " The Town Planning Act and its effect on Road Grading." We have been touching on this a little, for it is not easy to keep the points quite distinct. I will mention but two points. First, that the limitation of the number of houses to the acre to anything like 12 to 20 does make the actual width . that is set aside as possible to be used for streets a matter of less importance to the owner than it is when he is permitted to build as many buildings as he can get on. When a man is trying to put on his land a maximum number of houses, he can put more with 40-foot roads than with 50-foot, and so on. WTien the number is limited to start with, it is only a question whether part of the open space is put into the width of land that may be used for roads, or put into gardens. It will be easy to get 3'Our owners to give up land for wider streets, provided concessions are given to them for street works, for it is street works that are of the most importance to them when the number of houses is limited. My experience is that it does not make a very great difference to the selling value of houses whether you have wide grass borders or a little more front garden, and therefore I think it will certainly be rendered more easily than it has been in the past to secure from owners the necessary land, when you are able to make concession on street works. The second point to remember is that the tenant has to pay in the price of his plot or his rates for all street costs, whether charged to land or rates. It is no advant- age to the community and is not economically sound to make him pay 2s. more in ground rent to save Is. on his rates. The actual comparison should always be made between the capital expenditure that is required by the owner and the saving to be effected by it in maintenance. If you make the owner pay £2,000 extra for works on his estate in order to save one breakage of sewers per year or some rare accident of that sort, j-ou will see that you are really making the tenants pay a very heavy charge in their rent to save a very slight one on their rates. This relation should always be borne in mind, and when regulations are made as to street works, &c., some regard should be had to the relation between the capital outlay required from the owner and the saving to the Local Authority and the rates which will result. Let us have everything done well, so that it will reduce repairs to a reasonable 91 amount, but stop at that. If you cased the whole of your sewers with a casing of concrete they probably would not break, but the expense would be out of all proportion to the saving,, for an accident is a rare occurrence. A Delegate from Warrington asked a question as to the Town Planning Act and its effect on new road gradients. Mr. R. Unw-Tn. — I am afraid I am taking it to mean grading of the widths of the roads. A Delegate. — Would it not be intended for quality of road as Avell ? Mr. J. Pemberton (Warrington). — We had a busy night at Warrington last night, and this question was also discussed. Many of us who have been at your conferences have appreciated your remarks on this question of road making. Our private streets, even when they are only short streets of 12 houses each side, are paved in the same way as the main streets. A short time ago the builders asked the Council to cheapen the cost of private streets. They make all streets in that way on the south side of Warrington. So you see in Warrington the property owners and builders do not get any concessions whatever. The builders have had to stop work in Warrington. The average number of houses built a few years ago was 150; last year it was 80 ; this year I expect 40. Mr. F. W. Platt (Borough Engineer, Salford). — Will you give us your remarks on Nos. 2, 3, 4 together ? Mr. R. Unwin. — 2 and 4 may be taken together. Mr. Platt (Salford). — I was thinking of open spaces, not as parks or building grounds, but spaces between buildings. Mr. R. Unwin. — I think we can take the discussion now on 2 and 4. Mr. Shawcross. — I think the questions of road grading and the limitation of houses to the acre are most important points in Town Planning. We should give nothing away in roads unless you get quid pro quo. I hope before long we shall be able to get a town plan made without really giving extra widths of roads on that plan. We are in danger, having seen the mistakes of the past, and having seen the narrow roads, of going to the other extreme and making roads too wide. I think on the outskirts of Liverpool you have an example of this. In most districts these wide roads will not be needed for generations. I think in Town Planning we ought to get some provision to make roads just suitable for the present use and made so that we can increase the width in the future. At the present day you have great expense in maintaining wide roads mstead of narrow ones. If in making a town plan 92 you could arrange to take the land on each side for extra widths later on, you would have an immensely simple town plan now. It will only be necessary to put the position you want for wide roads at some future time. Professor Adshead. — I should like to say that the Town Planning Act, if anything, is going to give elasticity. There are also cases where we must have roads wider. It is perfectly correct what Mr. Shawcross says — many of the wide roads which are being constructed around Liverpool are unnecessarily wide and not Hkely to be wanted for 50 years. Mr. Brodie says it is extremely difficult to widen them later. It is a point to be kept in view. It is very much easier to obtain the land at the time of making the road. My point in making arterial roads is their construction. I think Liverpool roads are made on too high a standard. If some of the money spent on curbs and channels were put to provide for gardens on the boundaries, the results might be better. I really thmk that the amount of money spent on Liverpool roads is a little excessive. This construction is unnecessary, and I prefer to take as an example of what wide roads should be some of those roads constructed in other places. Mr. S. A. Kelly. — As a representative of Liverpool, I should like to enter into the lists in defence of the wide roads in Liverpool. I do so on the same grounds as when I spoke on Monday last. Wide roads. Queen's Drive in particular in Liverpool, have been not only necessary for the traffic which now runs on them, but also necessary as open space whereby the people of the district could get out and have exercise without mterfering with their neighbours. Previous to that period the county road was simply crowded with people. Immediately Queen's Drive opened the people took to that as a promenade ground and stuck to it as a promenade ground. Therefore it is advisable to get width in your road. I do not think it is safe to allow roads to be narrow leaving the extra width in the gardens. TheEuston Road m London is an example — houses were supposed to be set back 50 feet and the owners have encroached on those building lines, so when the day came for widening there a great price had to be paid for the land. Complicated questions may arise as to whose the land is. There are boundary walls and fences to keep up. Are the Local Authorities or the owners of houses or the owners of the land to keep up these ? It is advisable to put in a roadway of modified construction if you wish as regards car- riage-way, but have the road wide enough to take the traffic that will come upon that road. You may be able in some cases to do away with curbs, but those matters require very careful thought indeed, and I think myself that taking a city like 93 Liverpool with theii" expenditure Queen's Drive is a very fair example of what can be done in the city. Mr. F. W. Platt (Salford). — In the admirable work you published, you clearly set out the importance of site planning. One difficulty occurred to me when I went to Letchworth : the owners of many houses with a considerable amount of land about them have at the back of their houses erected a number of unsightly erections ; now, if that takes place in Letchworth, where circumstances are favourable for successful cultivation of gardens, what about other places ? I should like to know, whether it is not more desirable whilst we keep to ample space that it should be the duty of some one to maintain in every acre or each area of not more than 5 to 10 acres, an open space for the use of that area, rather than to retain an open space of considerable extent to each house which will not be properly maintained by the owners. Mr. Shawcross. — In a small scheme recently put through we have made provision to prevent these back gardens being spoiled, because we do not allow any buildings there without the permission of the Local Authority. We can have gardens paved to our satisfaction in case they are not properly cultivated. Mr. F. W. Platt. — I am quite aware the present law pro- vides that, but it is difficult in practical administration. Dr. Thornley (Bolton). — I have been on this work now for many years in our town. I should like our friend who spoke last to come to Bolton and give us a lesson. After a fight I carried out that a road should be made only 42 feet wide. Compensation amounted to £16,000 for a road not a mile long. I quite agree with the gentleman who spoke and said streets ought to be made wide from the start, and then we shall not have to spend such tremendous sums of money to get them widened afterwards. We ought to have width over which the Local Authority shall have absolute control. I think public authorities require some such power as that. Our friend from Warrington suggests one way out of the difficulty is in making macadam roads, which are cheaper than setts. In a town where you have a lot of traffic macadam roads are no good. It is no economy unless you make a road that will stand the traffic of the present day. We recognise that owners of property on each side shall pay half the cost of road and that has added to the cost of houses. How are we to get over the difficulty if in 10 years we want the road double the width — who will pay for this ? The tenants on each side of the road are going to reap the benefit of the road. We have just widened one of our main streets. If we do not increase the value of the property on each side, where is the Local Authority going to 94 get this money ? I say the owners of the property on each side ought to pay for making the road because they get increased rent. Mr. Jones (City Surveyor, Chester). — As a surveyor I cannot agree withProfessorAdshead's idea of making roads. I think curb- ing and channelling are necessary. In Chester we have some roads not adopted but on private estates, not curbed or channelled. I think people who live in houses on roads like this are as much entitled to have a footway properly paved as those living in the centre of the town. If the work is being carried out under the Private Street Works Act the road is probably laid out for some time before it is made up. Owners and tenants know when they buy these houses that there are certain restrictions laid upon them by the council to pave these roads. T.C. road may last anything from 5 to 7 years according to the traffic. S.S. road should last 20 to 25 years. No cost comes upon the rate- payers. The ratepayers suffer if a cheap road is put down. Mr. Newton. — Several districts are putting down T.C. in private streets and domg very well indeed. T.A. does very well generally. At the same time if private estates are expected to put down something better, it is a pity they are expected to put down better than London County Council put down for main roads. A Delegate. — It is true that on some of the main roads the Council are satisfied with T.A. for the time being. The question is one of expense. The County Council have very little money to spend. If we had an unlimited amount of cash at our disposal we should wish to go in for more expensive roads, believmg they would be more economical in the long run. A Delegate. — I must say I disagree with our friend at Bolton. He says he thinks all streets should be paved with setts. The point is where you have main arterial streets it is most essential they should be constructed to stand the traffic of to-day and what you anticipate in the future. The most important point of the Town Planning Act is where you have to widen streets you give up a little for the secondary streets. In our own district we found that in the past it had been a custom to pave every street with either setts or what are known as tips. The effect of it is very noisy, a good deal of dust collects between the stones, and the people complain it is expensive. People complain of the noise of the traffic going over this kind of pave- ment. That is what we want to guard against in secondary streets. Then again our friend from Bolton mentioned the fact that when it was required to widen a street, that the tenants got all 95 the benefit. Well, they do not get the benefit. The people who use the roads get the benefit. Mr. Unwin. — We will now pass on to the other question No. 3, " The Importance of Preserving Open Spaces." I think that with this question of traffic our discussion has proved what a great deal of difference there is in the views of the different experts in different places. Whereas the people in some towns are wantmg to use tar macadam, other towns are found where the life of the surveyor is not worth living because he wants to use tar macadam, when they think gravel is enough. The question depends very much on the planning of roads, whether there is any danger of their becoming roads for heavy traffic. So long as people can lay out roads as they like you must consider that any road may be a main road. As soon as you get planning on a proper organic system, you may grade your roads both as to widths and character of make-up. In opening the discussion on open spaces I would like to say a word with regard to what Mr. Piatt mentioned just now as to the difiiculty arising in giving so much open space. I agree with those difficulties. I agree that we have not and shall not meet those difficulties entirely all at once. You may do something by regulations, but even a powerful company developing land is much limited by public opinion. Tenants would rather live in a slum than live in a garden city too much regulated. It is a difficulty about which our friend has not even put the most important point forward which will arise, namely, the additions which may be made to the buildings. You may limit the number of the houses to the acre, but if there should be a change in the character of the population, you will find cottages growing out more and more behmd, until the open space is seriously contracted. I certainly agree with him that there is a very great opening for the common play- ground in connection with all groups of houses. It is not free from difficulties, but in all our towns there is a thorough dearth of accommodation for games. We want something for little children. We also want a space near home for their games. Here in this country we come to a great difficulty in reserving open spaces, that is the cost, owing to the fact that near the towns we have to buy the land at building value. In this way we have to pay for something we do not get. That is a problem we have to find a way out of. As soon as ever you condemn any piece of land from being built on you take it out of the building market, and you put it back virtually to agricultural land ; j^ou add to the surrounding land the building value which you have thus taken away. In America they are dealing with this problem by special assessment. 96 In Kansas, by means of a special assessment on surrounding property, 82 per cent, of the cost of open spaces was provided, and the owners still gained in enhanced value in spite of that arrangement. No less buildings are wanted because you secure open spaces at intervals near your town. You simply transfer the building value to the next land. We shall have to get some system of dealing with this before we can secure open spaces on the scale we need them. Mr. F. W. Platt. — At the Landowners' Conference it was agreed to give one acre in every ten. Not necessarily an individual acre ; it may be three, or four, or five, but in that proportion. A Delegate (Warrington). — Who is going to pay for the upkeep of open spaces ? Mr. Unwin. — Open spaces as provided under Town Planning schemes are of two kinds — public open spaces main- tained generally by the local authority, and private open spaces, not always given up to the public, but dedicated to the purpose of open spaces for the use of the people living round them. In the last case the owner or tenants maintain them. I think there is a distinct opening for both these open spaces, for there are many things that are possible in open spaces confined to a limited number of people which are not possible if they are open to the general public. There is need for open spaces of all kinds. However, it is a good principle to try and secure one acre in ten — not all one wants, but a very good principle and not uncommon in a Town Planning scheme. Mr. J. W. Wilson (Surveyor, Bolton-on-Dearne). — You pointed out two forms of public spaces, one for private owners and one the Local Authorities. May I ask what would become of the man who has 10 acres and proposes to put 80 houses on it ? Could he give one acre to the pubhc and put his 80 houses on nine acres ? Mr. Unwin. — In many schemes he might. The general view is that where a Local Authority purchase a piece of land for an open space, that land cannot be counted in fixing the number of buildings. Where an owner gives land for private open space, it is often counted in in averaging the number of houses. Of course you cannot lay down a hard and fast rule. At this point we might take in and include the last two points. At Letch worth we have on the whole shown a general high average in gardening ; at Hampstead it is hard to find any single garden not adequately kept up ; there has been only one case in which a representation had to be made that 97 the garden was neglected, and that was not a workman's garden. At Letchworth it is coming to be ver}^ generally the case. No doubt Letchworth at the beginning suffered from inexperience, also suffered from cheap land. Many people took more than they could do with, but these are comparatively minor cases. My experience in Letchworth, which is not a selected population, as at Hampstead, and every house at Letchworth has about one-twelfth of an acre of land, is that the number of gardens that have not been put in order is very small ; where there has been difficulty has been A\ith new houses, where the owner left the garden unmade, one- twelfth of an acre of clay soil in some cases. It was fairly natural that weekly and monthlj^ tenants should not put in the amount of labour necessary to get such a garden in order. Once the gardens are done up, we do not find any difficulty with the tenants. The difficulty of extra cheap land has affected us in other ways. There is a tendenc}^ for factories to take up more lands than they want, and thus our factory area has been taken up more rapidly than was expected. It was very diffi- cult when laying-out Letchworth to get any guide as to how many workmen would be employed on an acre of ground. Some day that may right itself, because factories ma}' grow to cover their land. That is a point we have to bear in mind. When you lay out a factory area on inexpensive land you must expect the factories to take up a little more room than usual ; cheap low buildings will be erected instead of high ones. We have at Letchworth also proved that it is possible to provide for widening roads while yet leaving the land to the occupancy of tenants. We considered certain of the main roads through the town would want to be widened before very long, but we did not want to go to any expense about it. We laid down a line on the plan, leased only up to that line, and let the remainder on a tenancy which provided that that land could be taken back at any time on six months' notice without any compensation. That is being done now in con- nection with one of the roads where traffic has increased. It does not seem to me it would be beyond the powers of a lawyer to make a Town Planning scheme which would secure some- thing of the same kind. The other point I would like to mention as to our ex- perience at Hampstead. We are now having our parcels, pill boxes, and such like things, delivered by very large motor vans. We have found that one or two of our turning places have not been big enough. There is no difficulty about 13-foot carriage-ways, but we do find we have had to put footpaths to some of the longer drives because nurse-maids with children cannot share the carriage-way with these vehicles. Another 98 experience at Hampstead is that while we have an average limitation of eight houses to the acre — and 12 houses to the acre is the maximum — we have been able to let cottages at rents which compete with houses built in the more crowded part of the neighbourhood. Mr. Jones (Chester). — Deahng with the question of open spaces : when schools are built you do not get a very large playground as a rule. I do think if the Board of Education were approached they would insist on school areas being larger. I think school playgrounds should be kept open after school hours. In Chester you go down the side streets and see the children plaj'ing on the roadway. The caretaker of the school, if the children go there to play, orders them off. I think school authorities ought to be made to allow children to play there after school hours. Mr. Unwin. — This is an important point. We ought to provide for school sites in To\mi Planning. Mr, Abbott says in Middlesex, as a rule, they always take an acre and a half. 99 SIXTH SESSION TOWN PLANNING SCHEME AT RUISLIP-NORTHWOOD Wednesday, March llth. Evening at 7.30 p.m. Chairman : EDMUND R. ABBOTT, Clerk to the Ruislip- Northwood U.D.C. Questions. — 1. The cost of preparation of a Town Planning Scheme. 2. Effect of Scheme on the attitude and interests of owners involved. 3. Second stage of Procedu7-e : apparent difficulties, and how to overcome them. 4. To what extent should a scheme he made public, and at what stage. 5. Experiences in the drafting of Special Provisions for scheme. 6. The best method to adopt ivith regard to limitation of buildings. Mr. Edmund R. Abbott. — I can only say that I look upon it as a great honour to come to Liverpool to talk about Town Planning. In London we look upon Liverpool as a town of Town Planning. I look back with happy recollections to a meeting about three years ago in St, George's Hall, and when I think of my inexperience at the time I sometimes wonder at my audacity in getting up then to talk about Town Planning. You have on the paper a few notes of the questions to be considered this evening. The first one is " The cost of preparation of a Town Planning Scheme." That is a matter about which there has been a great deal of discussion, but I am in a position to give you almost within £10 the cost which it has been to our authority, which, as you will remember, is only a small one. Our rateable value is £60,000, and a Id. rate yields £230. None of you need be frightened on the ground of the cost of preparing a scheme. Up to the present time the figures are : — Maps and drawing material .. .. .. .. £115 Printing notices, including furst notice . , , . . . 30 Postages , , . , . . . , . . . , . . 61 Advertisements , , , , . . . , . . . . 11 Extras and numerating and referencing 6,000 acres . . 255 Printing scheme . . . . . , . . , . . , 45 Consulting Engineer . , . . , , , , . , . . 22 Local Government Board fees for holding inquiries . . 25 564 By sale of maps . . . . . . . . . . . . 52 Expenses incurred to date . . . . . . . , £512 100 So that our cost to date is £564 ; but against that we have a credit of £52 for sales of copies of schemes, leaving £512 as net cost, I reckon about another £150 will see us through the alterations and fresh plans, and I am satisfied that we shall get out for our four years' work at £650. Our Town Planning scheme will have cost us about Jd. rate for four years. So the cost need not deter any authority in taking the matter up. Some of our expense as pioneers would not have to be incurred by others. I am told that as a subject amongst others that of the limitation of houses to the acre is perhaps the most interesting. It is a new idea in this country, and I am going to show you, as far as I can, how it has been dealt with on these plans, which only show the main features of the scheme. To show the details we must refer to the larger scale. These maps are about a 6-inch scale. Map No. 1 being the first map, you show very httle. Map No. 2 goes to the Board with the application for authority to prepare a scheme. There is a little more shown in the way of roads, &c. Map No. 3 is a small map and has been abolished under the new regulations. Map No. 4 is the map to be presented with draft scheme. Looking at " B," showing the limitation of houses to the acre. Land coloured yellow has a limitation of 4 to the acre ; brown 6 to the acre ; green, 8 to the acre ; blue, 12 to the acre ; and the whole area is divided up into 5-acre squares by red lines. Map No. 5 is the map to be sealed when the scheme is made by the local authority. The three maps, A, B, and C, are taken from Map No. 5, of course, on a much reduced scale. A shows the roads which are to be made under the scheme, B shows the different areas set apart for limitation of the number of buildings to the acre. C is a reduced copy of the Map No. 5. The " Land L^nit " consists of all land which belonged to the same owner on the 16th January, 1911, and which is comprised within anj' one of the squares marked in red lines and in the same restricted area {i.e., those coloured yellow, green, &c., on the map). We are taking in the part coloured yellow — I daresay, nearly 1,000 acres at four to the acre. A man comes along and says : "I want to put up houses and cottages." He may have several large houses on four acres and put cottages on the fifth acre. In four to the acre, if a man has five acres he may put all the houses on one acre, but must leave the other four open. It really works in this wa}'. You may have half-a-dozen people who want l-acre building plots ; but you must also 101 make provision for smaller plots. In any case, however, no individual acre must have more than 20. In calculating the average number of buildings, we allow the whole of a road to be taken in if it is a road which is going to be constructed. We allow half a road which is already made and on which owners' land abuts to be taken in ; but when you come to 20 to the acre, you are not allowed to take in the site of roads. Only on the net acre is an owner allowed to put 20. That is the general principle, but you can understand it is difficult to work. You say, " What about the man who has 5| or six acres ? It is difficult to divide him into two units." The council keeps a map of units. If an owner applies, he can add his two acres to five and make a land unit of seven acres, but no unit can be larger than seven acres. We have a provision that if an OA^Tier has less than five acres in one unit, that piece of land is a unit in itself. That is the general principle we have adopted. It is entirely different to Birmingham. There they fix an average, and the Corporation makes the unit. We feel that is too much for us to undertake. Now, I daresay you will say, of course, the limitation for districts like there are in Lancashire is too low or too high as the case may be. You may say : 20 is too low, we want 30 ; or, 20 is too high, we want 15. I can only say that with all our numerous objections — and we have had a good many — we have only had one real objection to our limitation to the acre. So you see we seem to have made it about right. Only one owner, who wanted to build cottages, really pressed his objection. So our scheme has gone up for the approval of the Local Government Board, practically as an agreed scheme with all the landowners, so far as limitation to the acre is concerned. I do not know if you would hke to discuss or deal with other points — I am rather inclined to think we should discuss limitation at once, and then go to other points afterwards. It is an exceedingly complicated question. I can assure you when we drew out these clauses, we did them I do not know how many times. Delegate. — Have you anj^ limited inside area for single houses ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes, we have. That is a question that comes under space about buildings. We have provided that the land within the curtilage of the site of a shop, hospital, school, &c., not being a dwelling-house, shall not exceed one- half of the whole plot. If you build a shop you must have twice as much land as the shop occupies. With regard to dwelling-houses, where the house fronts on more than one street, a corner house, the portion of the site occupied by 102 building shall not exceed one-third, and where an ordinary dwelling-house fronts on one road it must not exceed one- fourth. I think you cannot say we shall not have sufficient space about buildings. Professor Adshead (Liverpool). — You said in the area where limitation was four to the acre for unit of five acres, that all the buildings may be placed on any one. Suppose it is in an area where 12 allowed to each acre, is 20 the limitation in that case ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes. Limitation does not apply to shopping centres. The curtilage clause of course goes in. It is verj' essential for shops to be close together, therefore we have excluded shopping centres. A Delegate. — You spoke of a man who had 5| acres, and then said his land could be made one unit. Is this done ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Supposing a man had 5| acres, it Avould be awkward to have five in one unit and half in another. We should make that 5| one unit. We can enlarge the unit for a particular man's land up to seven acres. Suppose that is a five-acre square. Suppose that bit adjoining it is an acre and a half. We should allow him to add the two pieces together. If it were two acres we should still allow him to add it, but if the second piece Mere three acres he could not add it. A Delegate. — In Birmingham the units are all matters of ownership. I understand in this scheme ruled off in five- acre squares any particular owner may have five acres in one square and five acres in another ; or, it seems to me, so many owners would have lots in many squares, odd corners. Is this so ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes. Land belonging to one owner may be in any of the squares. Delegate. — May I ask if it is the King's College Owner- ship ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No, not all of it. ^Ir. F. W. Platt (Borough Engineer, Salford). — Would you mind explaining what you mean by the building curtilage ? Mr. E. R. Abbott (reads clause). — " For the purpose of this clause one building shall be deemed to include, &c." That is to get over the flat trouble. Mr. H. W. Taylor (Newcastle-on-Tyne). — Suppose in a case where land belonging to two owners ran into four squares, but the ownerships together occupied less land than five acres. Would you regard them as a single owner ? 103 Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No. I think it would be extremely difficult to work in two owners. Mr. H. W. Taylor (Newcastle). — The landowners won't want to build upon the land until the road is made. Mr. E. R.. Abbott. — The council have power to make any of the roads shown on the map. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Two landowners wish to build ; the boundary is very irregular, and they find they can develop their piece of land generally because there are two owners instead of one. I should like to know whether your regulations will permit of this ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — The limitation would work all right because you have the square. Suppose one has three acres, and the other two, ^^i^ere it is permitted to build 12 to the acre — one might put 24 on his land, the other 36 on his. I am afraid I do not quite appreciate the difficulty. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — The difficulty in my mind is the irregular boundary. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — \Miat we should do is this. We can readjust the boundaries of the units, but no single man can have more than 7 acres. We have taken power to re-adjust the units in that way. Mr. F. W. Platt. — Let us go back again to 20 houses on one unit. Suppose A and B have units adjoinmg — both decide to have their 20 houses on adjoining acres. Do you allow them to do that ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — At one of the conferences in London last year a gentleman suggested that you might have 4 adjoinmg units and the 4 acres in the centre. Put 20 houses on each. Therefore you would get 80 houses on 4 acres. That is possible under this scheme, but the result would be that a large amount of surrounding land ^^•ould be left open. The only answer to this is that nobody would be so foolish as to do it — it would not pay him. It is possible this may be a weakness in the arrangement. Mr. F. W. Platt. — ^Do you consider it would be an objection if it were carried out ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I rather think it would be a pity, but from a health point of view it would not be objectionable. In London people are all living in more than 20 houses to the acre and all exist. Vvlien that was put to us we rather hoped we might have got that 20 down a little, but Avere told we could not get this. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — What is the limited number ? Twelve houses to the acre was the maximum, which does not include any portion of the road. 104 Mr. E. R. Abbott. — May I go over it again ? In reckoning the number of buildings whicli may be erected on a land unit area, all roads or parts of roads constructed, or to be con- structed on or across the unit, are to be included, and one half of any such existing road adjoining part of a land unit. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — That is to say it becomes a part of the total area included in 5 acre squares. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I have never found out what proportion a proposed 40 feet road is to an acre. The possibility is that if you have a 5 acre square with a road going across it would take up J acre of land, and you would be able to put your 60 houses on 4| acres. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Twelve houses per acre, which is the maximum number, is exclusive of road ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — WTien you come to 20 you cannot take road into consideration — up to 12 you can. Delegate. — How many owners have you got ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Two or three hundred. Professor Adshead. — Is it not important that we should remember that in the case of Ruislip-Northwood there is one predominant owner ? In most cases that will not be so, and that being so could you tell us whether this has had any reference to the dividing up of the area into 5 acre squares ? The important point is in the case of Ruislip you divided your area for the purpose of controlling the number of houses to be erected on the acre into 5 acre squares. In Birmingham they have adopted a unit which is based upon ownership and purpose of general utility. Assuming that you had innumer- able ownerships of more or less equal area, would you recom- mend 5 acre squares ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes, I think I should. We have care- fully considered the tA\o propositions, and we came to the con- clusion that to leave it to the council to make these units would not do for us. The question of the large ownerships never affected my mind personally about it. Of course, King's College own about a quarter of our area. In some places we have a very large number of owners. Our owners' map is very thick indeed. Mr. Shawtross. — Is there any provision by which an owner who wishes to have his area planned out, can have that passed as a scheme ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — What you call an internal plan ? Mr. Shawcross. — Yes ; he might say " If I had this land planned out and roads put I might have better chance of selling 105 it." Is there any way you can arrange that without a building plan being brought forward ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes ; we can have a site plan. We have provision about that and we have a provision that the sites of all roads have to be approved by council. But there is an appeal to the justices under that clause. Mr. F. W. Platt. — As to limitation of houses again. Does that limitation as to amount of land which may be covered apply to warehouses and other classes of buildings ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — We have excluded buildings of the warehouse class from limitation. That was put in afterwards. These are our factory areas — these pmk ones. Of course you must remember this, ours is never likely to be an industrial district. I am not coming here to say this scheme is applicable to all districts — it is not. Each scheme must to some extent be prepared Avith reference to the type of land, and type of work, to be carried on. We shall probably never have industries to any great extent. Mr. F. W. Platt. — Could you say why ? ?>Ir. E. R. Abbott. — This piece of land was made factory area because it was near the railway siding. We selected a piece of land which seemed the least likely to be built upon for residential propert3\ Here surrounded by railways — it seemed to be the area best fitted for factories. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Shown by railway here ; suppose that developed very largely for factory purposes, and the piece of land adjoining was also required for factory purposes — are you debarred ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes ; that would have to go for modification. That has been largely discussed, and I think we shall find that we can get over that difficulty. If it were merely a slight alteration the Local Government Board could do away with msury of the regulations. The people it would affect would be the surrounding landowners. ^Ir. H. W". Taylor. — Is the area shown upon that map coterminus with your urban district ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes ; except the portion in the Wat- ford rural district to the north of the area. Mr. F. W. Platt. — Is it possible to put anything in the nature of a domestic factory within your area ? Mr, E. R. Abbott. — I am not very well acquainted Avith this, Mr. F. W. Platt. — Is it possible to have a bakery ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I think a bakery would come under the definition of a shop. We have a case of what is known as a 106 cottage industry. Some man wants to carry on a small trade in his own place. Cottage handicrafts we have provided fDr, Some people were very keen to allow a little shop to be opened. 1 strongly objected to this. I know one particular town where there has been a new development, and in almost every corner of the estate there is one of these wretched little shops. The old- fashioned shop is all very well. Mr. H. C. Wood (Tedcaster). — I should like to know how to divide land up into squares — fields belonging to various owners have all sorts of boundaries. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — We started from the parish pump and then ruled off the map into 5 acre squares. Perhaps I may just repeat — that green piece, say, is 5 acres. Suppose a man knocked off that corner. We should add that and make that his unit of little bits, provided they did not exceed 7 acres, 2 acres altogether could be added. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I quite agree that the unit plan might be as our friend here says — squares may no longer exist. Professor Adshead. — If in this way bits are added and taken from these squares it seems to me they are all falling to pieces. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — They will fall to pieces as owners ask us to add. They won't fall to pieces till people begin to develop. Mr. S. H. Kelly. — Do you think there is any danger of land bemg sold in these 5 acre plots, and those being the basis of economic development ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No ; I do not think it will. Delegate. — In the Birmingham scheme, and I think it will be the case in yours, a man comes along and buys a piece of land, and you deal with him, you never get at the big landowner at all. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — In our area roads will have to be made. A man cannot do much in our area without roads. We have another clause which says the sites of all roads shall be approved by council subject to an appeal clause. Mr. F. W. Platt. — Going back to 20 houses, supposing, for example, A owns five acres. A has determined to take advantage of that proposal and puts 20 houses on one acre regardless of his neighbour. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — The land is bound. The owner, who is bound, is the man who was the owner on the 16th January, 1911, when we applied to the Local Government Board for authority to prepare a scheme. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Suppose an owner puts the maximum on one acre and sells the rest ? 107 Mr. E. R. Abbott. — If a man in four-to-acre area puts 20 houses on one acre, he must leave the other four not built upon. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — What is the approximate number of landowners you have to deal with under your scheme ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Two or three hundred. Mr. F. F. Gartside (Clerk and Surveyor to Crompton U.D.C.). — I should like to know as to whether or not you have taken any power to let heavy traffic go down light roads ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No. Once a road is a highway you cannot prevent traffic. Mr, H. W. Taylor. — It seems to me that question is met more obviously by the designer. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — There are one or two points on roads I should like to mention. In a district like ours the question of road-making is exceedingly important from the point of view of cost. First get a bye-law for 40-foot roads. These two roads are shown as 60-foot. We have agreed with landowners that they will give land without compensation, and we have agreed with them that we will bear any extra cost which may be incurred in the construction of those two roads beyond the cost of a 40-foot road with a 24-foot carriage-way. Anything we ask them to do, provided they give us the land, beyond the bye-law width we have got to pay for. I think that is fair and meets the point raised this afternoon. With regard to the point raised by Mr. Unwm," Is there any objection to putting in a Town Planning scheme a clause that the people shall give up the extra land beyond 40 feet and in the meantime use it as gardens ? " Mr. Unwin was saying that was done at Letchworth and Hampstead. But you must never forget that you cannot compare Letchworth and Hampstead with a Town Planning scheme under the Act. There you have one owner. Supposing you have an 80 feet road, and you say to the owners along the road, " Look here, in 10 years time we may want 10 feet off your gardens. Will you give that up ? " Out of 100 owners ninety-nine agree, but one says "No." Then comes in the question of compensation. \Vlien that man claims compensation the others will. So I do not see in a Town Planning scheme under the Act, how it is possible to do it. I do not think we must ask our landowners for too much. Some of our owners — one here objected to a 60 feet road, said it would damage his property — did not want to see motors going past his garden. We ultimately got him to say he would give land beyond 40 feet if we would compensate his tenants. Mr. Shawcross. — I would like to know whether under a scheme you could reserve the right to take over the land, 108 eventuall}'' making the road in the first instance bye-law width , and when you wanted in future to widen it you would be at all expense of widening road and would make fences to further width ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes, I see. I think it would be more difficult than getting them to give you the land at once. Mr. Shawcross. — The landowner would be better by doing this way. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I think it is a thing that may be done by agreement. It would be worth while if you were starting a Town Planning scheme to go that way and get it by agreement. Professor Adshead. — If a large owner has property abutting on a 40 feet road the area of which is not entirely covered by buildings, and he wishes to put up new buildings to the front- age line, the London County Council allow him to extend over the area not built on only on entering upon an agreement to pull down when called upon to do so at his own cost. It appears to me that some such agreement might be made in reference to boundary fencing. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — There seems to be no objection if you can get into agreement with your landowners. You can do it, but what I have been doing for two years is getting rid of claims for compensation. Mr. F. W. Platt. — One tenant upsets a scheme by not keeping his garden in order. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — ^^Ve have a clause dealing with that. While on clauses perhaps I might refer to one or two. We have taken power to adjust boundaries between landowners in case of dispute by arbitration. Where a man has a large piece of land we have taken power to adjust boundaries. We have taken power to allow narrow streets — streets less than bye-law width, going down to as narrow as 20 feet. Some people want more than that, but we have taken that as a minimum in streets not exceeding 350 feet in length. Of course this applies to a district like ours. I daresay it would not apply to many of the districts in the north. Delegate. — I am very much concerned about the control of traffic in lighter made roads, to restrict the use of certain roads to light traffic. May I say it has been done in the 1892 Act. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I think we are all agreed it would be desirable to have something of the sort, but we have discussed this question at great length with Mr. Unwin and several other people and came to the conclusion we could not do it. It is extremely awkward to try to limit it. What kind of traffic are 109 you to limit it to. I should not allow a 20 feet road if it were likely to be used for heavy traffic. Delegate. — Would you take over a 20 feet road ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes. There is one matter that is so very important I ought to mention it, namely, the question of getting through roads made. Suppose yellow belongs to Jones, light green to Smith, dark green to another man. You have got this through road. How is it going to be made ? Well, you must have someone who can exercise that power — ^there is only one person — Local Authority ; and therefore we have taken power in our scheme on giving six months' notice for the council to come in and make that road if they want, and charge owners of land abutting on it with the cost of road, but subject to the previous clause where they were not to demand payment for the cost of constructing more than a 40 feet road. The landowner comes along, says "I do not want to develop the land — do not want road." We have said, "A road is required in the interests of the community and we are going to make it, but undertake not to charge you any cost until the land is used for some purpose other than agriculture." Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Suppose you have a couple of miles of road through agricultural land around different new tho- roughfares. Those men who own the land do not wish to develop just now. I understand you get a line fixed and make the road, and secondly, do you charge the owners any interest or do the ratepayers pay ? Mr. E, R. Abbott. — We have undertaken not to charge any interest so long as the land is used for agriculture. Delegate. — ^The District railway lies under your road. Do they contribute anything to cost of road ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No ; we have had to exclude railway bridges. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — In the case that instead of the existing bridge you want to make one of 60 feet. Who bears cost of bridge ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — We should have to do it. The cost in London of widening railway bridges has been appalling. They have got statutory powers — I do not see how you can do anything. Delegate. — Would you tell me what form of road the roads under the scheme would be ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — We have not decided on any form. Delegate. — Can you form it as you like and charge owner ? no Mr. E. R. Abbott.— Yes. Mr. Shawcross. — Have you power to charge them with a certain sum per yard ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No. We have actually refused to be bound down to any amount. The road may not be made for 20 or 30 years, and then we may have to make them stronger than they are now. There are two points in connection with the clauses. We have provided that if a house is converted into two, an owner shall not be allowed to do it unless he provides separate sanitary accommodation for each part. Wliat has happened is houses have been divided into two without proper sanitary accommo- dation for both parts. We have provided for that. We have also provided that each part shall have a proper larder opening to the open air. Two small things we have never been able to get under the bye -laws. We have got a clause about elevations. ^Vhat is going to happen to that clause I cannot say. We submitted to the Local Govermnent Board that it should be left to an architect who would be called in by the council to advise them. In an extreme case somebody ought to have the power to prevent a cinema with an awful elevation being put up, say, in Princes Street, Edinburgh. I do not care who the tribunal is, but do let us have something to prevent monstrosities. Mr. Wilson. — Monstrosities of elevation. Mr. J. W. Taylor. — Wlien in the opinion of council eleva- tion shall be unsuitable. It is doubtful to my mind as to whether the unsightliness would come under the question of unsuitability. I do not know whether that is not a clause which will probably be contentious in future. May I, however, say this is certainly a move in the right direction, because in any of the bye-laws one has had to do with in the past there is only one town, and that is Newcastle-on-Tyne, where they could control elevations. They have some very fine stone streets, and they prevented brick abortions being put up. Nevertheless I thmk under the clauses you have here much can be done, and if it has the effect of preventing row after row of houses being put up it will not be in vam. Professor Adshead. — Speaking as an architect I do not think that clause would have reference to row after row — it has reference to monstrosities. I understand there is some limita- tion to the number of houses in a terrace apart from that clause. Mr. E. R, Abbott. — I regret we had to drop that. I am only speaking from memory — I think we dropped that at the suggestion of Mr. Unwin. I am in this position — this has been considered a great deal. If it were next week I might have 111 been able to tell you more than now, because I should have got my scheme back from the Local Government Board. There is a good deal of objection to a clause being inserted that there should not be more than 8 terrace houses. I think I have pretty well exhausted what I have to say on this scheme. There are one or two points we might deal with. To what extent should the scheme be made public, and at what stage ? We have entered mto 16 agreements with landowners under which we allowed them to go on — thought that the best thing to do. Of course I think you must not judge by us at all. We have been 4 years over our scheme — first 2| years nothing to go on — had to get up 106 clauses out of our heads. The negotiations with landowners took an enormous time. You have got to be careful about compensation. I do not thmk the time was wasted. I do not think we can blame an3'body for delay. Our scheme is more complex than the Birmmgham scheme. It is what you suffer from b}^ being first in the field. To what extent should the scheme be made public, and at what stage ? This is a difificult question. I thmk it is very desirable that other people should know what is going on — all councils and people interested — but I think it would be a thousand pities for our scheme to be j^ublished at present. I know many people have had copies of my council's scheme, and they have been most loyal and have not disclosed the actual contents. I do not want to mislead people. When it comes to publishing in black and white do not do that until your scheme is approved b}'^ the Board. You may mislead other people if you adopt a different course. Mr, Shawcross. — Would Mr. Abbott tell us what he has got in the way of concessions from scheme in way of open spaces ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — We have got over 100 acres given to us for open spaces. Mr. Shawcross. — Is there any obligation on you to spend money on these open spaces ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No obligation. If a man is willing to give up land for open spaces I think it will be a very poor council that will not maintain them. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — What were you going to say about land you purchased ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — A piece of land we bought for open spaces, cemetery and allotments, cost about £70 an acre. The Middlesex County Council subscribed one-fourth of the cost of the land for open spaces. Since 1898 over £500,000 has been spent on open spaces in Middlesex. 112 Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Is that piece of land ultimately to be a park ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Yes, part of it. Mr. H. W. Taylor.— A^Tiat is the total area ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — 59 acres. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — With regard to these 16 agreements you entered into with owners. What was the object of those agreements ? To enable them to go on with work in interim ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Most of them ; and also that there should be no compensation and no betterment. Pelegate. — Have you had much compensation to pay ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Not much yet. Mr. P. Abercrombie (Liverpool). — Have you any idea if the scheme has raised or depreciated the cost of land ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I cannot tell you. We cannot get away from the fact that durmg the past few years there has not been a rush to build, and I think it remains to be seen whether there has been a depreciation. All land round London has depreciated rather the last few years. Professor Adshead. — Development has been encouraged. Mr. Stilgoe told us the other day operations had been at a stand- still during procedure. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — A good deal of building has been going on on the Ruislip Manor Cottage Society's estate. They have built a good deal. I think they would not have built but for a Town Planning scheme. They have got certain concessions. Mr. Shawcross. — If you allowed them to go on with reduc- tion in width of roads and so on, had you to get dispensation ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — No ; we took the risk. Obviously we could not get powers to allow dispensation, and owners did not want to cause trouble, so we did not see that anything serious could happen. Delegate. — I rather expected under this item " When should scheme be made public," you would give us some hints as regards negotiations with owners raising unnecessary objec- tions, and so on. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — You have to deposit your draft scheme at an early stage when it is open to inspection by landowners. We deposited ours two years ago. As soon as you can get into communication with landowners the better. I think the land- owner does not want to be bothered until you can tell him what you want to do. At our first conference we got through all right. We had friends who got us through. The first con- ference is likely to cause some authorities some trouble. What 113 do you show ? That map with nothing on it but road lines. They say " What are you going to do ? How will that affect my land ? " I think the thing to do is to take the mitial step at the earli- est possible moment — when you have made up your mind to have a Town Planning scheme dispense with first conference. Directly after the first enquiry is held then set to work with your scheme and put it to landowners. Delegate. — ^As regards making main arterial roads through land, have you taken into account Section 58 as regards better- ment ? Mr, E. R. Abbott. — Yes. In most cases we have an agree- ment — no compensation and no betterment. Mr. Shawcross. — I should like to know whether these new regulations in your opinion simplify these Town Planning schemes ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Oh, yes ; to some extent. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Had you much trouble in gettmg the landowners to agree on the basis of — no betterment, no com- pensation ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Very little difficulty. Suggest to them that betterment will far outweigh the compensation. Impress upon them that they had better agree. Mr. J. W. Tickle (Blackpool). — With reference to map No. 2, I notice 3 main roads. I assume new roads. Is the council liable for the construction of these roads ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — ^No ; we are not bound to make any of these roads. If we make them we have to pay part of the cost. Mr. Shawcross. — WiU you tell me what advantage this system of 5 acre units has over the system of Birmingham units ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — We went into it very carefully, and we found large ownership would work awkwardly in case of sale. You must remember Birmingham took power to make the unit an ownership unit. Of course, then again when you come to these varied restrictions for 6, 8, and 12, and so on, we did not see how it would work. Directly you had got outside one of the restricted areas it would have broken down. I am hoping there will be other methods besides Birmingham and this. Professor Adshead. — It seems to me the 5 acre unit is not in every sense satisfactory. It might influence road-making development for the purpose of simplifying conditions of build- ing. It might influence rates unduly. It might influence sales, and it appears to me, especially in those small ownerships or in case of large ownerships the 5 acre unit would break down in 114 series of units, many of which would be 7 acres and many of which very much less. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — You cannot divide it up into more ownerships now. If 20 men buy a unit it won't become 20 units. Professor Adshead. — The unit will influence boundary line. Mr. E. R. Abbott. — Do you suggest we ought to have power to add in more than 2 acres ? Professor Adshead. — I would not suggest that. I would suggest boundary line based on natural features or main roads. As a matter of fact in your case there Avon't be one natural boundary synonymous with the outline of a unit. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — May I ask what other methods your council considered besides the 5 acre squares ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — The only one Ave considered was that each man's own land should be a unit. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — Why take 5 acres — why not 10 ? Mr. E. R. Abbott. — I think you will find it will work more easily. If you take 10, then it is much more difficult to control. On the average for 10 acres you get 120 buildings as against 60 in a 5 acre. If you work it out, the smaller the unit the easier to deal with. Mr. Shawcross. — If we are to go on developing as we have done in the past you cannot reasonably ask for plans. You cannot go further than ask the landowner for his land. You are bound to stop with a man who is coming along with his building plan for a small plot of land. Mr. S. Kelly. — Mr. Abbott asked for some other idea for setting out these acres. It occurred to me it would be possible, because I see a great danger in the unit system. I am afraid we are going to have a chessboard plan reproduced in Ruislip-Northwood. I do not see it is possible with present owner or present owners. They may go and others may succeed them, who will adopt an economical development aspect of a Town Planning scheme, with the result that builders would divide the land into 150 yard squares and that seems to be a danger where we adopted the fixed unit. The suggestion I would make is more with regard to the owners of land. The value of land as it develops will affect them. If land is laid out in zones you get this. The valuable land which is limited to so many houses per acre. If man goes behind to develop land cheaper, he gets concession there. He will go on to further zone or cheapest land. It seems to me from landowners' point of view another way of looking at development according to limitation of houses to the acre. 115 SEVENTH SESSION. URBAN HOUSING Thursday, March 12th, Afternoon at 3-0 p.m. Chairman : F. T. TURTON, Deputy Surveyor, Liverpool Corporation. Questions: — 1. Impossibility of Removing Slum Divellers into the Outskirts. 2. Necessity for every Corporation to Embark on Municipal Housing Schemes for the Poorer Working Classes. 3. The necessity of Providing Housing Accommodation in Close Proximity to a Factory or Dock Area. 4. The Permissible Density per acre of Urban Housing. 5. Tenements a Necessity. 6. Possibility for Playground and Amenities in Urban Areas. Mr. TuRTON, in apologising for the absence of Col. G. Kyflfin- Taylor, the Chairman of the Housmg Committee, and also Mr. Austin Harford, the Deputy-chairman (the latter having pro- mised to preside over the afternoon session), explained that he had had no time to prepare an address as he only knew about two hours before that he would have to preside, and proceeded as follows : — For the last three days this conference has discussed Town Planning. You have had the advantages of very able experts and have had the advantages of hearing Town Planning ex- pounded in all its various stages. To-day, both this afternoon and this evening, we are devoting ourselves to housing parti- cularly. I made a remark a little while ago that it appeared to me that when the Housing and Town Planning Act of 1909 was first conceived, Housing was the first subject that engaged the attention of the Local Government Board, and afterwards Town Planning. The first part of the Act of 1909 was devoted entirely to Housing, and the second part to Town Planning. Dealing with Housing in its urban aspect I would first say that the differ- ence betAveen urban and rural Housing is very great, and that it is only the urban Housing with which we are concerned this afternoon. The Housing I am going to explain to you to-day is the Housing of those who have been dwelling in slums, and are now inhabiting dwellings erected by the Corporation. In other words it is the housing of the poor, whom we are told are always with us. Liverpool may be taken as an exponent of urban Housing. The last 17 years of my business life has been spent in this work. I cannot do better than tell you what has taken place 116 in this city of ours. I notice one of the remarks made by a speaker here — he used the words in connection with another matter — " Wake up, Liverpool." I think as regards the Housing of the poor, Liverpool woke up on the 23rd June, 1864. Fifty years ago next June was the birth of the most important sanitary Act which came into operation in this or any other city — The Liverpool Sanitary Amendment Act of 1864. It is important to notice the words in the preamble of that Act. The preamble says, "Whereas there are in the borough a great number of houses situated in or abutting upon or contiguous to, or at the entrance of courts and alleys, which houses by reason of defects in the construction thereof or of the Avant of ventilation or of proper conveniences or from other causes, are unfit for human habitation, and fevers and other diseases are constantly generated there, causing death or loss of health, not only in the courts and alleys, but also in other parts of the borough ; and it is expedient that provision be made for the remedy thereof, and also that further provision be made for tlie regulation of future courts and alleys in the said borough, and of houses and buildings to be erected therein." In those few words, the preamble of the Act of 50 years ago, you have the reason for and the beginning of all Housing work done in Liverpool. In 1864 in this city there were 22,000 insanitary houses which were back to back, side to side, with conveniences perhaps for every 12 houses. One-fifth of the whole population of the borough was living in these houses ; the death-rate was about 60 per thousand in the districts in which the houses were situated. The problem was acute — Parliament felt it so, and Parliament gave Liverpool these wonderful powers. The present position of those 22,000 houses is that by the operations of the Corporation, and the operation of private mdividuals who have puUed down houses for their own benefit, the number of insanitary houses has been reduced to 2,771. Up to 1895 no building for the accommodation of the people so dis-housed was done, and it is more than a suspicion that the remedy was getting worse than the disease. The people displaced went into other houses — they went into single rooms in large houses which had occupied a good position in the city at one time, they went into cellars, and it is almost certain some went into the work- house. Excepting the latter minority, they came to be living under conditions almost as bad as before. This state of affairs became so acute that considerable agitation took place for its abohtion. It caused in the first place great displacement of the population, great interference with schools, churches, and places of worship, and also shopkeepers. The whole thing began to be regarded as something of a scandal. In 1895 the Corporation decided that as these people were being displaced, not altogether for their own benefit but for 117 the benefit of the community at large, it was right that the community should take some steps to house them. This led to some trouble, because the owners of slum property contended that the Corporation wanted to take the best tenants. I do not deny it. They felt that they were losing tenants. The ques- tion became very acute, and even the Housing Committee were divided into factions. At one time of its existence that com- mittee had seven chairmen in seven years. In 1897 a compro- mise was arrived at. There were two parties — one said " We will only house those we turn out." The other "If you will only house those you turn out we will withdraw from our position and shake hands with you." It was thus that the Liverpool policy of restricting their dwellings to the dispossessed was arrived at. First of aU in dealing with these people, the poorest of the poor — ^what the average wages were I do not know — 10 years ago they were much under £1 a week. But at any rate this work could not be done without considerable loss because the rents prescribed in all our dwellings approximate closely to those charged for previous insanitary houses, e.g. — 2-roomed tenement on ground floor is 3/6 1st „ 3/- 2nd „ 2/9 3rd „ 2/6 3-roomed tenement on ground floor is 4/6 1st „ 4/- 2nd „ 3/9 3rd „ 3/6 In both these cases a scullery and separate w.c. is provided to each house. These are rents from which it is impossible to show a return. Up to the end of last year and taking in all the demolition which was done since 1864, the total amount expended by the Corporation was £1,163,465. That debt has now been reduced to £743,000. The cost per annum for interest and sinking fund after deducting the net rents from the dwell- ings is £34,231, which is equal to a rate of about 2Jd. in the pound. As the sinkmg fund is paid for out of this money, those who come after us will come into a valuable estate which will probably yield something Hke £20,000 a year. I will tell you some of the effects. Improvement in the habits of the people has been most marked. There is a higher moral tone, a stronger regard for self-respect, and, above all, a greater love of home is evident in the people residing in the Corporation dwellings. In one area in 1894, before the area was pulled down, there were 202 cases of drunkenness, 118 assaults, and other offences, that is, offences that appear in the police court. In 1910 there were 34 cases, 1911 2 cases, 1912 4 cases. In another area there were something like 200 in 1901, before the houses were pulled down ; only 50 in 1912. Wlier- ever we go the Head Constable tells us his difficulties as regards crime are rapidly disappearing. The death rate has fallen ; though it is still no lower than 28 per 1,000, we must set off against it the remarkably high birth- rate of 51 per 1,000, to which a considerable infantile death-rate is incidental. Then about fevers. Two years ago there was not a single death from typhus fever in this city of Liverpool. Typhoid is rapidly decreasing. The deaths from phthisis is about 4 per 1,000 for the slum areas, whereas in the Corporation dwellings it is only 1*9 per 1,000. In conclusion, I can only say to you that if you appeal to me or ask me to appeal to you on financial effect, I should simply not discuss it — it is impossible. When you take yourseK away from the £. s. d. side, and consider what has been done for those who have benefited by it, the work will bear the most thorough examination. We have altogether 2,747 houses. Last year 576 tenants left — 236 doing a "midnight flit," and 154 leaving because they were unwilling or unable to pay their rent. Out of 2,747 houses there were only 18 who left from misconduct. No fewer than 157 of the old tenants who left for various reasons returned, and before they were admitted into the dwellings again had to pay all arrears. The gross rental of dwellings for last year was £27,435, of which £25,226 or 98- 3 per cent, was collected. Now with regard to the items this afternoon. First — " The Impossibihty of Removing Slum Dwellers into the Outskirts." I shall be glad to hear remarks, and give you any help I can on this and the other questions set down before us. This was one of the problems which we have always had before us in Liverpool, whether or not it would be for the benefit of those who lived in slums that they should be removed to more salubrious surroundings. If you wUl look at the map you will see that Liverpool is like a huge fan. It is impossible for Liverpool to extend on the western side. It is unlike Man- chester. Manchester has the advantage of being a city with immense surroundings. We can only go in three directions, north, east, and south. All the work that these people are engaged in in Liverpool is along the line of docks, and all the housing work of Liverpool has been done close to their work. We found that it was impossible — it was impracticable to take these people out into the suburbs because they must live near the place where they earn their livelihood. Labour is taken 119 on at different times of the day and makes this necessary. Even the mere cost of tram fares would render the thing impractical. Nearly all this crowding had been caused by the great influx from the country to the town. It appears to me Liverpool is only just opening out, owing to what Mr. Brodie, the City Engineer, has done. You will realise that we are trying to get better means of approach, but it is as yet impossible to do what we would all like to do, namely, take these people into the outskirts, because of this problem of labour and houses in close proximity thereto which has confined the area of our work. Dr. Wynn (Wigan). — I see at once there is a big difficulty m Liverpool, and of course you have carried out and practically completed your scheme in Liverpool. But in Liverpool it becomes largely a matter of finance, and it might be worth while for any authority interested to go into figures in order to see whether it could not save them directly by buying cheap land outside the congested area, and whether those savings might not compensate the authority for carrying the people to and from their work in their own trams. One would have to go into the cost to the corporation of running special cars and conveying their tenants free of charge — have to see on the other hand cost of purchase of cheap land and also allow for what I think would be of material benefit to the health of people housed by authority. I am merely throwing out a suggestion. Mr. Percy T. Runton (Hull). — I have not had much experience with regard to slum property, but in Hull we are similarly situated to you in Liverpool. For the plan you might lay a fan on to Hull. We are bounded by the Humber as you are bounded by the Mersey. We are surrounded by the same physical difficulties regarding slum dwellings arising in a port, we being a similar port to Liverpool. I was glad to have some information to-day regarding your Housing. I was always given to understand with regard to Liverpool Housing schemes that the people displaced were not re-housed, that the class of people displaced were put upon private property owners and that selected tenants only were taken by the corporation. I am glad to hear from Mr. Turton that they do re-house those dis- placed. With regard to taking people from slums to suburbs this has its difficulties. About 5 years ago a site was to be cleared in Hull for other purposes which at the time was covered with slum property. Instead of doing what you are doing in Liverpool the houses were demolished and the people went where they chose. Now amongst the people who dwelt in these houses there was a well-known slum family. That family got into a street of some two or three hundred houses about 1 J miles distant. What happened ? Within 2 years I am told, 120 there was not one of the original tenants of that street living there — it had become a regular rag shop. The result was the property owner in that case had to evict the people for both refusing to pay rent and damaging the property, and it cost between £4,000 and £5,000 to restore. This is one of the difficulties you have to face in taking the slum dwellers into suburbs en bloc. You alter the character of the district. If you keep them interspersed with good class people, there is no doubt the environment and different surroundings will improve them. I hold that so far as the housing of this class of people is concerned, it is our municipal duty to look after them, but under suitable supervision. There should be a law com- pelling a tenant to keep his home clean and in good condition, just as there is a law for the landlord to keep the building repaired and sanitary. It is only right that the municipality should replace every slum which is puUed down and re-house the people displaced, and if that were done there are plenty of areas in the cities in proximity to works and business premises quite suitable for housing this class of people. I must again express my pleasure at hearing that Liverpool does re-house those it does displace. A Delegate (Manchester). — I quite appreciate the difficulty that Mr. Turton pointed out in providing for this particular section of people who are compelled to live near their work, but I think we may emphasize too much the necessity for providing for the whole of them at any rate. Even if we could provide them with free travel, time has to be taken into consideration. Casual labourers have to put in work at different times of the day. At the same time there is a certain section who could live further afield, and whilst making the necessary provision for those who caiuiot I think every inducement should be offered to those who can go into suburbs. In Manchester, at an enquiry some years ago in Hulme — two-thirds of the people worked within half-a-mile radius from where they lived. On the other hand the section who could live further afield ought not to be called upon to live in tenements. Decentralisation seems to me to be the real thing in reform. I know you cannot transplant a slum population right away to the outskirts of the City, and at the same time it is necessary to make this provision in centre for certain section. The pressure is really greater on the out- skirts of our city. Whilst on the whole I agree with Mr. Turton, I think we can emphasize the need for that provision too much. There is just one point I should like Mr. Turton to answer. He told us they were losing £22,000 a year on the re-housing scheme as distinct from demolition. Does that include sinking fund ? (Yes.) I think he must be wrong in saying death from phthisis is 4 per 1,000. (Yes ; that is right, in the slum areas.) 121 Mr. F. T. TuRTON.— With regard to the Medical Officer of Health for Wigan speaking of taking people out to cheap land by tram cars, I would point out that we have to obtain this land first of all by reason of its being slum areas. As to working it out on the lines the Medical Officer suggests, I do not know what would happen. So far as the Liverpool problem is con- cerned we are convinced that it is only possible to house those somewhere near their work at the present time. And in answer to Mr. Runton I can say that there is never a house pulled down by the Corporation of Liverpool but what the tenant has had an opportunity of going into a new Corporation dwelling. It has been done, and is there to be seen to-day. With regard to what the Manchester delegate says I think I have pretty well answered him. I am willing for these people to go to the suburbs, when it becomes possible. I am hoping .a time will come when they will feel as we do. At the present time our work is with those who can do no better. Professor Adshead. — With regard to the necessity for every corporation to embark on a municipal housing scheme, I myself think it is absolutely necessary. The slum dweller is an individual who is not capable of looking after himself. But there is one point which seems to me to have been lost sight of with regard to that question of the removal of slum dwellers. There are two distinct questions under consideration. One is the practical difficulty of taking slum dwellers. I mean to say, convenience and traffic difficulty of removing them from slum area to the outskirts of towns. Another not quite so obvious but more real, that is the difficulty of suddenly expecting slum dwellers to accommodate themselves to new habits of suburban surroundings. They do not care about it, they cannot do it. It seems to me the need for Housing in slum areas is very necessary. Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — With regard to Professor Adshead's remarks, what I said was that every tenant dispossessed since 1897 had an opportunity of going into a corporation house. I did not say every tenant had gone into a corporation house. Out of 7 schemes which displaced 7,259 people, 72- 91 went into dwellings provided by the corporation. This is a very enor- mous percentage. The main reason why we have been so successful in reaching this high rate is that we have always been ahead of our work. We have always had houses ready for these people to go in — and that is why the proposition is one I am not sure all municipalities could carry out. The vastness of our work enabled us to do it. A Delegate. — Can the Chairman tell us the reason why those who did not go back did not want to do so ? Was it because the rents were too high ? Where did they go ? 122 DUCHY OF CORNWALL KENN/NGTON ESTATE BlOCK or TEN COTTACCS GROUND noOR. /°z^A nRST /-'LOCiR n.Af, Example of Four-room Cottages at Kenniiigton, London URBAN HOUSING Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — They did not know what was best for them. Their habits were such that they could not change them and never will change them. They have idle, indolent ways. I have no words too strong for them. We have done our best to get them. There are certain people whom no corporation ■or body of persons can help. All we can do is to hold out a hand of fellowship, and beyond that, leave them to their own devices. The future generation at any rate will never care to live under the conditions their fathers and mothers lived under. A Delegate. — In clearing out slum areas and improving width of roads, was the cost of this borne by Housing account or not ? Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — The cost of land is included in the Housing accounts, but not the cost of road-making. Mr. H. W. Taylor (Newcastle-on-Tyne). — Mr. Turton mentioned in some of these areas the corporation has dealt with that in one case as many as 99 per cent, of the residents went back to new dwellings, and in another only 11 per cent. ^Vhat is the cause of this great difference ? Mr. F. T. Turton. — In the case of the 99 per cent, they had some other dwellings very close by. In the other case ■one would have thought they would have been content to go some distance away, but they preferred to go to other slums rather than go that short distance. They have their own schools, their own churches, their own associations, which in a great many cases they are desirous of retaining. Now let us take the next item, No. 3, " The Necessity of Providing Housing Accommodation in Close Proximity to a Factory or Dock Area." I will say I agree with Professor Adshead. Mr. Harford said Nos. 1 and 3 ought to go together. I am not responsible for them. Whoever it is has given you the means of thrashing out these cj[uestions to every possible extent. I do not know whether we can say anything on No. 3. Perhaps those who ^re concerned with the factory question might speak. Mr. Percy T. Runton. — With regard to the housing of the people near their work, an3'body who has studied the habits of the people must have seen the necessity of housing them within a reasonable distance of their work. In the first place for economic reasons. A man may not have much breakfast — only fair he should have a hot dinner. If he lives ci long distance from his work this is impossible. It is also impossible to take it to him. Well, of course, some of the big works now provide cheap meals in beautiful rooms at a very trifling cost. Many people avail themselves of those opportunities. I even know of a certain firm who give the 123 whole of their clerks, &c., a free lunch — fish, meat, &c. I said, " How on earth do you do it ? " They said, " Workmen who supply fishing fleets are bound to live near the docks. All our staff have to live beyond that area. If they have to rush home and get a dinner and be in form to do work, their health won't be much in a few years. Now they have a decent meal. It pays us. They talk business." The working man of course is not a staff clerk. You cannot expect him to get a free meal and talk business, because there is not much business to talk about — moving bags. There is the necessity of placing houses near the works. Clear out the slum area and give them good houses. I can quite see all Mr. Turton's difficulties with work in slums — I know what slum work is. I came to Liverpool 20 years ago to see your Boys' Club. I came with the object of starting such a club in Hull. I am glad to find what splendid work these clubs are doing. The boys who belong to these clubs will not go back to the slum. A Delegate. — Personally I cannot agree with the former speaker in so far as he deals with the Housing question in close proximity to factory. The man who works in a factory is generally a good fellow. He does not wish to be a slum dweller. If they are slum dwellers at all it is because they" have not had the opportunities of going into another area. The cheap transit to-day gives the working man such oppor- tunities. I can assure the former speaker that the working man to-day will take those opportunities. In my own town in Yorkshire, and many towns in Yorkshire — there are plenty of large factories there — in days gone by people had to live near the factory. To-day they live outside, and when new houses are built a couple of miles away in better outskirts, if there is tram convenience the workman will take those houses, and after they have been erected a short time there will not be one empty dwelling amongst them. I think to perpetuate building houses in close proximity to factories where they" cannot have gardens, cannot bring up their children in the way we and they wish, is wrong. You will make a great mistake if you build houses close to factories, A Delegate (Rotherham). — The difficulty we in Rother- ham have is that a large number of our men will be working in ironworks and collieries outside the town but will persist in living in the town. We have tramway facilities in getting them backwards and forwards, but in one village there is a colliery 3| miles from the town. Not less than 3,000 men live right in the heart of Rotherham and go backwards and forwards,, using cheap workmen's tickets, I have asked them why they refuse to live in the colliery village. The only answer is,. 124 " I do not want to live in the country — I want to live in the town." This class of people will persist in living in towns for many reasons. This is the class we have to house. Better- class men are provided for by the private builder. The real object of corporations of this country is to house those who cannot house themselves. You can only house them in the suburb by driving them and then they will go back. Professor Adshead. — Many of the speakers are referring to different classes. Mr. Turton has spoken of the residue of the residuum. A different class to Mr. Runton's. That class has respectability in it — that class has to be dealt with differently from the lower class. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — I should like to confirm views ex- pressed as to the necessity of dwellings being near to works. I represent a town at Tyneside. You get a lot of men going on shift at 4 in the morning and every eight hours constantly moving about. If yon try to move this class of men from the colliery j'ou have workmen's trams running ever\' hour of day and night as well. The gentleman from Rotherham says man}' men prefer coming into the town. Because there is a picture palace. This is a thing we have to calculate upon because it is an attraction and it is a cheap entertainment. If you can provide something similar near to where they live, half of that difficulty would disappear. Mr. Pemberton (Warrington). — Factory toAvns are in quite a different position to Liverpool. You talk about casual labourers. In factory towns we have another class — there is the unskilled labourer who never earns more than £1 a week. He cannot go outside because the builder cannot provide houses. Slums are not caused by the houses but by the people who live in them. This is not sufficiently recognised by the authorities. The pressing question, however, is how to provide for a workman who does not earn £1 a week. As regards picture shows they build them on the outskirts so they do not need to go to the centre of the town. I think there is not enough attention paid to the fact that after all it is a Avages question. People do not live in slums for choice, they do not starve for choice, are not dirty for choice. When a man loses employment he may be respectable ; then he gets half-starved — wife gets disheartened. If you consider what poor working men have to go through do you wonder they become careless ? There is no margin for them to save. A man marries perhaps when he is 20 on 19s. a week It would be very interesting to know what percentage of people stop in your dwellings after two, three, or four years — they may not have sufficient wages to keep on paying. 125 Mr. H. W. Taylor. — I did not make my point clear. The- average miner gets £2 or £3 a week. If you want a man to be near work you must provide counter attraction to town. Mr. P. T. RuNTON. — We were discussing the labourer rather than the artisan. It is the labourer rather than the artisan who requires study and thought. We are going to- deal with the artisan to-night. Well, of course, we all know there is no covering the fact up that with a large number of these families drink is at the bottom of the difficulty of Housing You are doing work im Liverpool with a Boys' Club. In Hull our Boys' Club is not a Lads' Club — it is a Boys' Club, and we deal with the residue of the residuum — boys without a name and with unknown, parents, and to deal with those boys we have found it necessary to find out something about their homes. It is impossible to- visit their homes alone — we must always go in twos or threes. I will give you an example of the necessity of this, of a boy who had been before a magistrate for stealing an orange for his breakfast. When I got to my office that morning a detective came across and said, " There is a pal of yours in the dock." I went into the court and got the magistrate to stop the case. I saw him afterwards and said, " You must not con- vict this boy." He said " Why ? " I said, " If you do, you make a jail-bird of him for life. His father is at fault — drink." That boy was saved. I got him off on condition he should join the army. In the letter he told me he had reformed his mother, his father to a great extent, and was helping his brother. All this was owing to the influence of the Bo3's'" Club. I contend that if we studied the habits of these people and you had a supervisor with a kindly heart who would under- stand the people you would in time improve them. Do not bother about the parents but get hold o£ the children. Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — The man in a factory is in a better position to know what he can afford to pay for a house than the man employed in the docks. My own view of the matter is that the man employed in factories can afford to go further afield. That leads to another question, that is, limit of wages. Our friend was very wise when he said it is a wage question. But the wage question in this country is rapidl}^ adjusting itself. A speaker asked if the corporation have a limit put on wages of applicants for our houses. There is no wage limit.. The sole qualification is that they have been dispossessed from an insanitary house. With regard to public-houses, we have taken in a number of public-houses in our work. In one case the purchase of public-houses increased the price from 40s. to 60s. per square yard. The takings of three public-houses that we acquired in 126 one area were more than the total weekly rental of all the houses erected on that area, i.e., more than 450. But we are not here to discuss the public-house question,, although it is a question that entered very largely into our calculations. We have taken away some of the public- houses and reduced the possibilities for drink. Now we come to a question I do not know as much about as I should like, "The Permissible Density per Acre of Urban Housing " — a question never discussed before. We have heard a great deal about what the density per acre shall be in rural Housing, but when you come to density in cities, it is very difficult. A Delegate. — Can you tell us what the density is in districts j^ou have worked ? Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — We have got figures out, but it is diffi- cult to take any figure as a criterion. Take two areas which are verj^ good types, and in one case before the corporation operated the density was 74 per acre, and in another case 96-8 per acre. Dealing with them as 3-storey blocks, that is, a block of houses three storeys high, divided into three tenements, the present density in one block of new dwellings is 17"5, and 15- 6 in another. This is the only guide I can give you as to what has been done. Multiply these figures by three and you get the total number of separate tenements per acre, but so far as the bye-laws are concerned, three separate tenements maj' be counted as one house, which has the necessary air and yard space required by the bye-laws. On the question of self- contained houses we have in one case 51 in one area. This works out at about 31 to the acre. We do not always re-house upon the same area — that would be impossible. What I said was that in one case 99 per cent, of the people moved from one area to another one, on which new dwellings had already been completed and were ready for their reception. I should just like to say a few words on No. 5, " Tenements a Necessity." Correspondence is always taking place in the papers as to the desirability^ or otherwise of tenements. Con- ditions alter cases ; what is suitable for one community is not suitable for another, and we have found that the tenement system is both suitable, and in order to efficiently carry out our poficy of re-housing, even necessary. A Delegate. — If wages are not going to go up there is no other way about it. One of the wealthiest firms in England has 2,000 workmen working for 22s. a week. You cannot build houses to-day at present price of building for these people to pay an economic rent. Are men going to pay in rates something to subsidise these low wages ? If you have 127 to build in the cheapest way you must build tenements. Take any living thing you like, get above a certain number to the acre and you get sickness and death. I am against tene- ments — I do not think they are a good thing. I have built many houses, and I have voluntarily built 20 and 26 to the acre to my own loss. A Delegate (Manchester). — I think everybody is agreed upon the necessity for some provision in this central district. As to what the character of that provision is to be must be decided very largely upon the price of land. The only econo- mical method of housing poor people where land is dear seems to be tenements ; tenements are not ideal but are not neces- sarily unhealthy. They are much better than slum districts. I have in mind a certain block of tenements in Manchester, and we have evidence available that the death rate for that area for three years formerly was 57 per thousand. A few years afterwards average worked out on the same tenements only 27 per thousand. This shows that tenements are not necessarily unhealthy if properly built. Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — When I took up this work many years ago I came to the conclusion that, as the last speaker said, tenements were a necessity under the peculiar conditions we had to work under in Liverpool. We entered into it as a great health proposition. On the question of tenements, when I found tenements were a necessity and got some experience of the work, I tried as far as possible in building tenements to get away from the tenement look, and you can see in this room the latest model that is going to be followed in connection with the work. I felt very acutely the front door problem, also that " the Englishman's house is his castle." By the provision of a balcony on to which each front door opens I have tried to get as far away from the tenement appearance as possible. By that means I have got an amount of population on the ground which I could not otherwise have got. To cater for another class I have provided a number of houses of 2-storey flats in which I have brought the front door of each of those houses right away down to the street. My answer to this question is that under conditions such as have prevailed in Liverpool tenements have been a necessity. The last item is a very interesting one — " Possibility for Playgrounds and Amenities in Urban Areas." On the question of playgrounds, some 10 years ago, when this work had been progressing to a certain extent we felt that sufficient play- ground space was not given in the neighbourhood for children, and in the case of one block, instead of facing my houses directly on to the street I put them in what we called " places," 128 at right angles to and running between the main streets. The spaces between these blocks of dwellings was 36 feet wide and became available as a little playground in which children could play while their mothers knew they were out of danger from the streets. These were so successful that in another area I provided a playground of only about 1,400 yards, and that has been open now some 10 years. These are small instances, but they show the value of these things. There has only been one accident — on the swings — a little girl, not one of our tenants, but a child who had come 2 miles to play. You will realise what it is for little children to come 2 miles to play. You will see in this room a rough model of a playground the corporation have provided on the Bevington Street area. The cost of our work — this playground formation — is all included in the cost of 2|^d. I gave you before. We have spent £13,000 on the Bevington Street playground. This is a large sum, but worth every penny of it. That line I suggest to you to-da5^ The land cost 43s. a yard. It was expensive, but it is found crowded with boys and girls. That plaj^ground has led the Board of Education to relax their requirements in regard to playground accommodation in respect of a voluntary school in close proximitj^ A Delegate. — Would the chairman tell us if it is neccesary to keep attendants to supervise the playgrounds ? Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — It is necessary. We find it better to have an attendant because it keeps the children under better control. There is a bandstand also ; the attendant regulates attendance ; he also looks after the playground. A Delegate. — I feel in accord with the money spent on that. It seems to me necessar}'. I think those ought to be on rates. This is a question that affects every one of us in ever}^ town in the country. It is so essential in young life of every description that they should have places to play in. Mr. F. T. TuRTON. — I do lay stress on having play- grounds for children. We cannot always take our children to parks, but we can to some extent bring the parks to the children. 129 EIGHTH SESSION SUBURBAN AND RURAL HOUSING Thursday, March 12th. Evening at 7-30 p.m. Chairman : PERCY T. RUNTON, A.R.I.B.A., Architect of Hull Garden Suburb. Questions. — 1. Relative Value of Bungalow, Group and Semi- detached. 2. Use of a Backyard and Garden. 3. To what Extent can Construction and Features be Standardised in Property ? 4. Economic Methods of Construction, and their Relation to Upkeep. 5. The Need for the Front Parlour : the 3-Bedroom Minimum. 6. The Use of the Scullery. 7. Hot Water in the Cottage. 8. The Back Passage and Dust Removal. 9. The Effect if Rural Housing is done Officially. 10. The Use of Concrete Construction. Mr. Percy T. Rtinton. — This afternoon we had a most interesting discussion on the housing of the poorer class and what was termed the residue of the residuum. To-night we are elevating ourselves to a much higher level — to that of the artisan and clerk, and I purpose treating the few remarks I have to say rather upon the line of giving the result of my experience of having built and completed, along with other work, two cottages a week for the last eight years. Of course, during that period I have had the chance of studying the habits of the people, and have had experience in trying to educate them to something better or different from what they have been used to. To-night we are rather leaving Town Planning and coming to the other section of the Act, and, of course, when this section of the Town Planning Act is thorough- ly understood it will take more the aspect of a code of bye- laws, which we shall get used to, and the points we shall have to deal with will be the Town Planning section. In all questions of Housing I always take the view of eliminating the non- essentials. It makes for comfort and simplicity, and the women folk can work a house easier if not burdened with non-essentials, and the result is greater happiness. We are dealing first of all with the " Relative Value of Bungalow, Group and Semi-detached." One cannot speak in reference to any one part of the country of value as to actual cost, because, as you are aware, prices vary in different parts of the country. We have the cost of material, transit, and other costs, and I should rather use the word " percentage " as a better guide ; you can then add your own local costs together and arrive at a value. 130 In detached and semi-detached types of houses one has external areas more to consider than in group building. The treatment adopted really depends upon ultimate success. In smaller houses I estimate that a detached house puts about 12 per cent, upon the cost of the houses in groups. This arises of course partly through the extra cost of outside walls, extra scaffolding, and labour. In semi-detached I find there is about 8 to 9 per cent, extra cost, so that in group buildings of four to six you have a more economic building in many ways. The drainage, for instance, is more direct. All this contributes to a large extent towards the financial success of a scheme and should be as carefully considered as elevations themselves. In group building you can get quite nice effects if 3'ou stick to broad principles and the main idea of grouping and good proportion, and not in features which are so often expensive and verj^ often to the detriment of the result. In small work I always make it a rule to entirel}^ depend upon proportion. Have any of j'ou ever noticed, when you studied any building that effect depended upon grouping and propor- tions rather than on the individual feature. In a lot of schemes of houses j^ou find them like crochets and quavers in music. For that reason I say with all sincerity study seriously simplicit}-. Now A\e come secondly to " The Use of a Backyard and Garden." I believe that every scheme, no matter how small, should embod}' gardens, but gardens of all sizes. You often have men who are on night shift. The}^ have to sleep most of the day and have no time to do gardening. One man may want a nice house in a good suburb and no garden. Another man may want a garden. Therefore have good gardens but of various sizes. With regard to gardens I should like to sa}^ that I am converted by experience to the need of good gardens and surroundings. To illustrate that point. Some time ago I knew a man who moved out of a house for which he paid 5s. a week. His employer said, " Why, there is one of my men there — what is his rent 1 " I said " 7s. 6d." He said to the man, " How can you afford to live in this sort of house ? " " Well, you see, sir," he said, " I pay 7s. 6d. a week and I save 6d." " How do you do that ? " " Well," he said, " I used to pay 5s. a week ; I spent 4s. in the public-house — 9s. Now I pay 7s. 6d. a week. Is. in public-house, and the rest of my time in the garden, and so I save 6d." That was ver}' illustrative to me of what a garden can do. Therefore I think everybody should have the opportunity^ of having a garden in these suburb schemes. Now to pass along to the question as "To what Extent can Construction and Features be Standardised in Property." 131 This is a matter that is quite possible without any detrimental effect upon a scheme. In a matter of 600 houses in one scheme with everything standardised do\vn to locks and fasteners the general success of the whole scheme depends upon grouping. But of course it requires exceedingly careful consideration when you standardise, and every detail should be studied and much time spent in deciding what you are going to do and use. So far as experimenting goes I have gone to great lengths and spent money with very good results. Some of the gentlemen here have visited the scheme I refer to and I think they will agree with me that unless you examined minutely the scheme of the houses you would not think it was a standardised type. The fact of your group of buildings being standardised does not depreciate it when laid out in separate form, and it is gradually enhanced by tree or shrub and monotony is avoided, and consequently you break the continuity of sight before you see the next group, and therefore what you do not see 3^ou do not think about and so cannot see the standardising. With regard to actual detail, just to mention odd points. Assuming that we have started a scheme with casement windows set off to the standardised form by taking windows of 1 foot 6 inches in width and 2 feet, 3 feet, or 6 feet high. Every house will have that sized window. You can standardise all fittings and a great saving is made when you standardise doors. With regard to doors I shall deal with them under " Economic Methods of Con- struction and Upkeep." In all these points you can only standardise when you have a scheme that is worth standardis- ing. In a district where you have firms that turn out good work they standardise for you. I have a very good firm such as I describe. One of the directors was interested in this particular scheme and said, " What do you suggest ? " I replied, " If j^ou make standardised doors, &c., and sell to any builder that comes along you give that job more stamp and character than it would ever get." For instance, a man comes along and says, " I want two buildings there." He goes to this firm and says " I want so many windows." This gives character to a place instead of having all types of windows of poor proportion and the result is satisfactory from an economic point of view. The same thing applies right through. Stoves : if you can get enough together for a contract, you can get a good contract from foundry people for the stoves you require. Also baths, and that naturally makes one think there is a good deal in co-operation, especially in this form of building. With regard to these points of " Economic Methods of Construction and their Relation to Upkeep," I think this is the most serious point that we, either as builders or architects. 132 have to deal with ; in my opinion it is the most important point in every scheme. It makes one shudder to think of the possible rag shops some so-called schemes may become. I do not agree with cheap buildings in any form, even for the working class. I do not believe in it not only from the point of view of the man who lives in it but from the economic point of view. You see the upkeep is a vital point in the future of every scheme. Think of the wooden gate posts which look pretty to-day and will be bowing together in a few years' time, roof tiles will be refusmg to cling together even for friendship's sake, and the gutters will make the house fronts look like the faces of chimney sweeps who have been weeping. Finally you come to the door and you go into some of these houses and find you have to hang curtains over the door to prevent the baby being blown up the chimney. Economise in details, but execute everything in good sound materials. You can all figure up what will be the difference in cost in upkeep between badly built property 15 or 20 years after it has been up compared with the cost in upkeep over houses in which the details were built on better lines. Supposing you want to get a wooden post. Supposing you designed a wooden post and you wanted 100, why not send to a foundry and have them made of cast iron ? That post will be there m 50 years' time, stands the life of five or six wooden posts, and saves you the upkeep. We have that question to face. I wanted about 2,400 gate posts for a job. I thought the thmg over and came to the conclusion that when I was an old man these posts, if made of wood, would all be gone ; they must be made in iron, and in iron they are. Another advantage is, you can cast on feet and fittings. The result is, no gate posts tumbling about — they are all straight as a die. Another point — many of these suburban cottages like to have a little trellis round their back door. Of course this is unnecessary, but these people use their back door more than the front door. They put up a trellis, and what happens to that trellis in a few years' time ? It collapses. For 2s. 6d. you can get a little cast-iron socket, put the trellis post into it, and it will be there in 20 years' time. It is a point that adds to cost, but it is economy when you consider what you have to pay in years to come. Another point is these cheap doors. I have seen lots of schemes that will be ruined to a great extent by doors. What is the difference in cost between a panel door and a batten door ? Possibly 2s. 6d. Supposing at the end of seven or eight years the door will not work. You send for a joiner to look at it. After the joiner has looked at it for 10 minutes you might as well have paid 2s. 6d. The same thing applies to fittings. Nothing annoys a man more than a door that won't work. You have 133 a cheap lock on it ; at the end of 50 years you have had three or four on. That lock has cost you considerably more than one at 5s. first cost. That is a detail, but it is a detail that will give pleasure because every time you use it you feel you have got hold of a good thing. These matters apply practically throughout. Therefore it is more economical to pay more in the first instance, and much can be obtained by adhering to that one thing — simplicity. Of course, quantity and standardisation have much to do with cheapness. It is cheaper to build a dozen than one. There is one other point with regard to extra cost. You can do with much less upkeep than you otherwise would. Now we are coming to a point in which most ladies will have something to say — the use of the front parlour. I ask the question. What does an artisan want with a front parlour ? What does it mean in expenditure of wifely labour and to what use is it put ? He cannot afford two fires. The room is often very cold, and if he only knew it he cannot afford to allow his wife to take up time in keeping that room clean. Yet they do it, and why ? Is it false pride, or for the eldest daughter and her sweetheart ? I do not think the artisan is happy about it himself. Most wives object to their husbands coming home at night and sitting in the parlour. Most workmen as a rule are working in a place covered with dirt. The average man comes home dirty and the wife would not let him sit in the parlour, and consequently it rarely gets used. It is colder — makes the house colder. It has to be dusted continually. When we started our scheme we had a meeting of about 200 of the workmen. We just called a public meeting and put a notice out for the workmen to come. We showed them a number of designs. They all stuck out at first for a parlour. We built about 100 with a parlour. I was dead against it, but they said they would have them. We got these houses well on the way and of course they were all taken. I said to the Board one day, " Well, I am convinced we are wrong. This class of man cannot afford a parlour ; he ought to have a better living room than at present, a better kitchen, and better scuUery." I persuaded them to let me try a few in this way, so we started about 50 or 60 with real good living rooms. At first I doubted if we had done the best thing from a commercial point of view. After a time people made application for the first half-dozen we had. They sold their parlour sticks to come and have these houses. Then we buUt 400 with the same accommodation. To-day we have over 600 applications from people waiting for these houses, which to my mind is proof that the working man, if he is shown that a parlour is of no real service to him and is an expense, he will go into a house with a good living room only, 134 and it naturally must make him happier because his wife will have more time to do things that oil the wheels of matri- mony. The next point is the " Three-bedroom Minimum." Well, my answer to this is that there is a necessity for the three-bedroom minimum. How anyone can expect the children of both sexes to be brought up in the environment of two bedrooms and possess that clean and healthy mind which children brought up on separate rooms have, I cannot conceive. Most people live up to environment, and especially the working class. I used to go round sometimes and just look in at the houses of appUcants and see how they were living. One day I called at the house of an applicant who was very keen on getting into this suburb and about whom I had my doubts. ^Vhen I called at his house and saw it I still had doubts as to whether he was a suitable tenant, and yet the man was a typical English artisan. I was rather sorry for him because of the wife. At the end of a month she met my manager in one of the roads. She said, " We have got in. I did not think it was going to be as grand as it is." About a week after I met her. She said, " We shall have to live up to it." I said, " That is all we want." The result is that within three months you would not know that woman or the house from any other in the street. It was clean and the children were clean. That was environment. You have got to deal with this three-bedroom minimum. I say if you have three bedrooms you must necessarily improve the morals of the people. A\Tien I say morals I mean every moral quality that the human frame possesses. You must also inspire respect for sex, which you cannot expect to be acquired where you have both sexes herded together in two bedrooms, and most of these people who come into these suburbs are coming out of two-bedroom houses. In the cities many cannot afford at the present time to live in a better type of house. In most cities two bedrooms is the usual accommodation, but since these garden suburbs were initiated builders are putting three-bedroom houses up at medium rental. This sex question is, of course, an exceedingly difficult thing to legislate for, both as to where people shall live and how to get them to go into places with three bedrooms. We ought to have legislation requiring a three-bedroom minimum for families. Even the very savages have a kind of separation. I met some years ago a gentleman from Natal and owing to being weather bound was locked up with him for three days in a moorside inn ; he was giving me his experiences when he was in Africa. He had a sheep ranch and one or two tribes to look after them — in those days there were very few Britishers in Natal. He said every year in the autumn when 135 everything was practically done the savages had a round up — all the tribes would collect on his estate. They used to come in and sit on a great big platform, the women on one side, the old chiefs in the centre, the younger men on the other side. Separation of sexes was enforced. As soon as a boy was 12 years old he came over from the women's side to the men's side. He had no more right to go into the women's quarters. They do that in a savage land whilst we allow whole families to be herded together in one room. It is the natural thing that there should be some separation, and we ought to make these houses convenient to the families that live in them. Now we come to " The Use of the Scullery." The scullery is used for a number of purposes. If every artisan house has a good living room all it requires for working accommodation is a good scullery. It ought to have a good sink, bath, place for mangle, cupboard for brushes, and then you have a good working scullery. If there is room for a gas cooker and the man can afford it, put one in ; if not, you can for 9d. bring gas to a ring. In rural houses where there is no gas you must have a small fireplace so that they can use it in the summer time, but make it as small as possible so that they won't live therein. In suburban houses if hot water is provided you need a fire, which in summer time of course they are bound to have going for part of the day for cooking purposes and in the evening. If ranges are provided both in the kitchen and scullery, perhaps the people will live in the scullery. Nothing could be worse for children than to be brought up in a scullery. Compare them with children brought up in a good living room. If a child is brought up amongst beautiful colours, it likes them ; if it is brought up in filth, it likes filth. Do not make the scuUeries so that the people can live in them. Of course it is very difficult to imagine any child that has been brought up in nice surroundings ever desiring to return to poor surroundings. If you do get really good environment there is no doubt you are educating the rising generation. We will now pass on to the question of "Hot Water in the Cottage." I regard hot water in the cottage as most essential. An artisan comes home and is dirty ; he wants a wash. The greatest inducement is hot water. How to give the man hot water ? Well, I was faced with that difficulty. I was most anxious to provide hot water for them. I experimented for 10 days to find out how we could get hot water in the cheapest possible way. I will give you some copies of the scheme we have adopted. You will see by this little drawing how simple an affair it is. At the back of the kitchen fire place is a long cast-iron boiler, which supplies water to the sink. You also get hot water to bath the children. 136 One advantage is that if the house is empty irresponsible people cannot empty the boiler. The open fire range and boiler up to last year cost us £6 19s. I consider that as cheap a hot-water system as you could have. We have an arrange- ment with different firms who make us different parts, and we assemble them ourselves, we now pay about 12^ per cent, more on account of advance in prices. If you get a sink with some depth it may be useful. I have even heard of mothers bathing the little children in the sink. -WW -WAJTrFT^SlFFF QEianZZSTESCL We now come to Item 8, " The Back Passage and Dust Removal." It has been considered practically essential for many years, and under the new Housing Act, we all know of a number of houses in a district where they have no back way where the local authorities are compelling the owners to ipake some access. It is most necessary for removal of dust, taking in coals, &c. This is much better done through back than taking through front door. Passing along now to question 9, " The Effect of Rural Housing if Done Officially,'* that is a very pretty subject for discussion. There are many points one has to consider in rural Housing — the question of wages, local living charges, cost of materials, &c. 137 We shall not be here to hear what the historian says, but whatever he does say I hope that we who are trying to do some- thing for the benefit of the country will not have it laid at our heels. What can we do to prevent disaster ? Those of you who have not read Professor Adshead's article on " Town Planning and the Rural Problem " in the Town Planning Review* let me advise to buy and read it, and probably after reading such an article as that some light might dawn upon some of you as to how the thing might be done. I take the view that unless the whole of this particular thing is thoroughly planned, the interminable row deleted from this scheme, and every assistance given by the Government, it might be such an account as I have thought the historian might read. But with properly planned areas there need not be ugliness, there need not be stupidity and squalor provided amenities and environment are properly studied. We spent £40,000 to £50,000 on a Rokeby Venus. I think before we spend £40,000 on a picture, would it not be better to spend that sum in order to give some colour and beauty to the people ? It would be a part of their very existence, and if you give them such amenities and such environment you are educating them to better things. Of course I do not depreciate your galleries, but if you cannot possess both, houses are the best. Now for the last point " The Use of Concrete Construction." This is a very debatable matter. This form of construction may be of great use and quite suitable for certain districts where you have got proximity to cement and skilled labour, but at the present time I do not think we shaU be able to use con- crete for cottage construction with success apart from the aesthetic view. The bye-law is a difficulty in many districts — this will be overcome, I daresay, in time. In giving evidence some 12 months ago before a commission on small holdings, (they were dealing a great deal on the question of concrete), I stated that concrete construction, owing to the fact that it was non-absorbent, has a tendency to sweat. About 12 months ago I built some very large schools with reinforced concrete floors, ceilings, and roofs. I was in that building a week ago last Wednesday, and in the hall I noticed beads of perspiration. I also noticed stains which showed previous sweatings. This shows it does let moisture stand upon it. Therefore I am not a believer in concrete at the present time for cottages. Concrete is all right if you get a good man at it. If you get a bad man you have failures, and failures result in accident. It has its advantages — it is vermin-proof. There ought to be some legis- lation that would place responsibility on the tenants. Landlords have enough responsibility. Wliy should a man not be re- sponsible to landlord to keep his house properly clean ? * Vol. IV., No. 4. January, 1914. 138 We all know what Mr. Eddison has proposed for his concrete houses. It may be all right — some people may like concrete cottages, but I do not think generally that they would be really suitable as cottages for the better-class artisan. We might use them for the people we were considering this afternoon — wherein to eke out their miserable existence — but to give artisans entirely concrete cottages I do not think would be pleasant. There are many things for and against concrete. I do not say concrete is not good, but I do not think that it is applicable to cottages at the present time. Many districts will never be able to do it, for it may mean taking away the char- acter of the district. Fancy putting concrete cottages on the Cotswold Hills. Now I have given you briefly the views that I have formed from 8 to 9 years' experience. I have not dealt much with actual details, because I think we should be able to discuss those after. I shall be very glad to give any of you any information I may possess on various points raised, and I thank you for the patient hearing you have given me. Now, gentlemen, No. 1 is " Relative Value of Bungalow, Group and Semi-attached." JMr. Grayson (Liverpool). — I think perhaps when Mr. Runton said building a house in rows of 6 saved 12 per cent., these are the sort of little facts that coming from a gentleman of his experience we may take as gospel. Of course they have found out in many garden cities that they cannot get satisfac- tory results unless they have these groups. No doubt for economy you must group. Again this is very largely a question of appearance, therefore I think you must be very careful indeed about frontage line in attempting this sort of work. Mr. Mell (Shipley). — Would the Chairman give us some idea of the size of frontage of those houses and structures ? j\Ii'. H. W. Taylor (Newcastle-on-Tyne). — I should like to know whether you let your work by contract, or whether you build yourself, and which you find not only more economical, but more satisfactory in the long run ? Mr. P. T. Runton. — Dealing with broad point-types of houses vary from 4s. lOd. per week. Size of good living room 14x126 ScuUery 10x8 The frontages of those houses vary from 15 feet to 17 feet. With regard to Mr. Taylor, we have up to the present time built everything ourselves, but it is not so economical as having it done by a builder, costs us 4 or 5 per cent. more. We have got sound workmanship and therefore an infinitely better job. For everything, as far as possible, we have been put on trade 139 terms by every manufacturer in the country. We have bought as cheaply as the ordinary builder and cheaper than many, because we have paid cash every month and bought in large quantities. With regard to buying timber well, we have the port of Hull for timber. A Delegate (Wolverhampton). — Have you built more than one type of house ? I find in several towns I have visited, especially Stafford, they have built two types of houses. Smaller houses, 2 rooms, 3s. 9d. a week, larger houses, 6s. 6d. per week. Unfortunately the man who pays 6s. 6d. has to contribute to the smaller house. I should like to know if HuU adopts that ? Whether they put a premium on the man who pays a better rent to help the other one ? Mr. P. T. RuNTON. — There are weak spots in our scheme. Our cheap houses are 4s. lOd. On these there is a worse return than on any house we have. We have built 60 or 70 as an experiment for working men earning under 25s. a week. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — K 4s. lOd. is the rent for the smallest house, how much is the rent for the largest house, and what is the number of rooms ? Mr. P. T. RuNTON. — The largest house is £35 and rates — 2 sitting rooms, kitchen and scullery. A Delegate (Wolverhampton). — I have listened to the discussion with great pleasure. I have come to get all the information I possibly can. I am a retired builder, also a representative of the Housing scheme for Wolverhampton Town CouncU. The question appears to me that we want to cater more for the working man. I do not believe in local authorities spending ratepayers' money for the artisan. I do not wish to speak about politics, but I think what public bodies should do first is to see that men have better wages. No work- ing man ought to earn less than 24s. a week. What I want to get at is, what is the smallest type of house we can possibly build for 4s. a week ? I do not believe that public bodies should be called upon to make up deficits from rates. All schemes should be seK-supporting. Mr. F. Litchfield (Co-Partnership Tenants, London). — I should like to ask you whether gardens are really appreciated in Hull apart from your own scheme ? I attended a conference here in 1906, and I remember one or two gentlemen, owners of property in Liverpool, strongly advocating that it was a waste of time, and waste of good land to give it to cottages as the people living in cottages did not appreciate it and would not cultivate them. Whether since 1906 cottages are being built in Liverpool with gardens, apart from certain districts, I do not know. Perhaps you will give us your experience in Hull. 140 With regard to standardising property, I thoroughly agree with you if it is a practical suggestion apart from schemes like your own. It is usual for builders to standardise their property — when you go down a street you must count the pipes or }-ou get into the wrong house. I do hope we shall be very careful about the recommendation of this. Have you any experience of concrete, instead of iron, and if so can you recommend this ? I have had considerable experience of building houses with front parlours and building without. In one case we built 40 without a parlour. We had 25 of them empty until we converted the one big room into two. Then we let them quickly. I believe a time is coming, especiallj^ in urban districts, when a large living room will be ajipreciated by people without children or with onh' one or two. But it is a different matter where there are three or four children. Children must have somewhere to play. Unfortunately men when they go home say they do not go home to play with the children. 1 believe that is a matter that is being done away with. Fathers ought to look after the children as well as the mothers, and tr}^ to let the mothers have a night out. I take it, you would recommend on an estate such as your own that it is quite necessary to build houses with more than two bedrooms for people with more than one or two children. Wliy should a young couple have to pay for three rooms, and have one empty or take a lodger ? On our estate we have cot- tages with two bedrooms, and when children come into the home, and they require more accommodation, then we arrange when next house becomes vacant for that family to pass on. If they won't they get notice to quit. As a rule they are glad to pass on. A Delegate. — Do you think there is any considerable difference from the health point of view in detached or semi- detached to groups of houses ? Mr. P. T. RuNTON. — In reply to Mr. Litchfield, in respect to allotments or gardens, on the particular estate he was referring to, we have a scheme of prizes, and the park superintendent, as a rule, usually looks at these gardens. He goes round in the spring, summer, and autumn, and advises. He told me in all his life he had never seen a better lot of grown flowers. With regard to the question of gardens I might say the Corporation of Hull have 4 or 5 large areas of allotments, and they realise £6 per acre. So I think, that in itself shows there is some interest in gardening in Hull. Even the tramway men yesterday had their annual exhibition of bulbs and hyacinths. We have flower shows in our own garden village. Even the speculative builder now is giving gardens. 141 With regard to standardising, your remark about having to look for the pipe on your way, all I have to say is it all depends who advises on the lay-out of the scheme. If you have square concrete posts you have them snipped ; concrete if round is quite good, but if it is not well painted in frosty weather it will crack, and for the first year or two when you paint it the paint won't hang on to it, and for good work it does not look as nice, but if working for cheapness I see no objection. With regard to the question of the hj^gienic relation of detached, semi-detached, or groups, if a man has a detached house he has more wind round it — he must get more air, and a cleaner and drier house, but provided you have got the requisite air space I see no objection to groups. Delegate (Bromborough). — May I ask what is the height of the rooms and cost of building ? Mr. P. T. RuNTON. — Nine feet height in ground floor, and in bedrooms 8 feet 6 inches, unless the bye-laws make you have more. Mr. Shawcross. — I should like to say a word or two on one of these points. First with regard to gardens. I think the question as to gardens was best put by Mr. Litchfield. He says at present 1 per cent, of the working class have got gardens, and 99 per cent, have not. Therefore if you start having gardens now you are not likely to find in those 99 per cent, some enthusiasts who will take some of your gardens. In some parts of the country these gardens are a distinct addition to people's income. If we try gardens in some parts of the country where the soil is very bad, people may be disheartened with them. I say make gardens until you find you have too many and not enough people for them, and then go to something different. I really cannot let this question of the parlour go down with- out a word, and a very strong word on the other side. I think, if the Chairman will excuse me, he has almost been ver}^ careful when he talks about the scullery. Why will they live in it ? Because they want the other room for a parlour. I will tell you another thing. We have had conferences in two of the worst paid districts in this country. The people at those con- ferences unanimously passed a resolution that no self-respecting labourer and his wife should be asked to go into a house without a parlour. A different aspect to Mr. Runton's ! This question of a parlour is too important a question of development — it is a question of raising up the standard of living just like the question of the bath-room. Fifty years ago we had no baths. Such a thing won't do to-day. What was the case then with the drawing room ? The drawing-room then was the parlour of to-day. People who had a drawing-room were a step up on the social scale. We to-day use our drawing-rooms every day, but 142 it wasn't done then, and the labourer was the same with his parlour. Give 3'our labourer a parlour and I think you will find you have done the right thing in trying to make him appreciate it, as 90 per cent, of them do. I could take Mr. Runtontomy own town where they are living in the scullery to have the other room for something better. In some garden suburbs they are having gas cookers put in the scullery, and are taking the ranges out of the parlours and having fire-places put in them. Mr. A. R. Aldridge (Secretary National Housing and Town Planning Council). — I have been urging Mr. Shawcross to speak on behalf of the parlour, and I think you will agree he has put it very forcibly indeed. May I say what a pleasure it has always been to me to go to Hull garden suburb, which I think is one of the best examples of garden suburb building in the kingdom. I remember going to Hull some years ago with a deputation, Mr. Runton told a very good story about his own suburb. He told us of a Yorkshire employer who said he went around that suburb to make enquiries, and I gather from what he said he happened to have that faculty' for asking personal questions in the nicest way without giving offence. This gentleman asked a lot of personal questions — how much rent they paid, and other things. He found this good lady was living in a house for which she paid 5s. 6d. a week about, found the husband was earningnot more than 24s. a week, and they had moved into the suburb and were paying about 7s. 6d. He pointed out it was a large rent to pay. She finally said — there is the company my husband does not keep. May I just say two or three words with regard to other points. First, with regard to the parlour. Let us first ask what the woman of the house wants. We are not building brick boxes or stables, places for eating and drinking only, we are building homes. I remember asking a Dutch housewife who had a beautifully-kept room not used at all, if it was not unnecessary. The lady was very angry indeed. Instinctively the woman of the household does desire a parlour. It is a real desire and there is something in it. Let us remember this. Many of us who have a parlour are bent on getting rid of it when we find it in the home of the working man. Let us look the Housing question straight in the face. It means we must raise the standard of Housing. We are talking a lot about cheap rents. The day of cheap houses has gone for ever. I believe the day is coming when the house the workman will live in will not cost less than 6s. or 7s. a week. I beheve in the wisdom of telling workmen they must try and raise the wage standard, and pay more for good houses. I would urge most strongly this point in regard to the home. Home matters so much in life. My last word would be in regard to the home — 143 let us driU into the minds of employers and workmen that after all it is the home that matters in family life. Mr. J. Pemberton (Warrington). — It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that the last three speakers have missed the point altogether. Of course I agree mth Mr. Aldridge, 1 am a builder — I never built a house without a parlour in my life. The point is, is it better to have three bedrooms, large living room, and scullery ? I provided parlour, kitchen, sculler}^, and only two bedrooms. I was very much interested indeed in the Chairman's remarks. He has provided for what is here. The last three speakers have provided for what they would hke to be here. Not only has the poor agricultural labourer 15s. or 16s. a week, he has other advantages the to^vn dwellers have not got. Take a large town — the wages do not exceed agricultural labourers'. You are going to put a premium on low wages. You will have to make an effort with the rich manufacturers to put the wages up. Professor Ad she ad. — I have in my hand a letter from a lady who is deeply interested in this problem, and she asks me to bring this before you ; it reads as follows : — " Wives and mothers of the working class, who spend their lives in the houses planned and built for them by men of a different class, suffer from certain mistakes almost universal which arise from ignorance of the needs of practical women, whose workshops these homes are. "It is better to have one large houseplace, and a small scullery, than for the space at disposal to be divided into three parts as common, viz., parlour, useless small kitchen, and scullery. The advantage of large houseplace being that children may play in one corner and be warmed by the same fire as cooking is done, and be under the eye of the mothers, and at night the additional size gained by abolition of parlour, can be enjoyed by the grown-ups. In this houseplace it is neces- sary to have a cupboard of fair size for the accommodation of crockery, groceries, &c., not food. " In the scullery there should be sink and convenient shelves (another cupboard if possible). A small larder with wire window is a necessity in every decent man's house — other- wise the food cannot be kept fresh and appetising. " Three bedrooms may be arranged over this, as number, if ventilated, rather than size, is desirable. In the bedrooms it is most necessary to provide a cupboard and a few hooks. How can people be tidy without these things ? The floor is the ultimate end of all things unless a higher place be provided. " For outside yard it is necessary to have coal and stick place. Washhouse if desired, otherwise an open shed to store things too large for house. No ashpit or rubbish hole should be provided, but bins with lids, to be emptied at least once a week 144 by an authorised ])crson. Tliis is most important as tho dis- jiosal of rubbish is a burning question and t lie working classes are not yet educated u|) to being res})onsiblc for their own rubbish, the neglect of which is harmful to themselves and others. The dustman, however, may teach them gently which items may be burned in their own kitchen fire with advantage. " A small piece of garden ground is better than a large piece. " A porch with entrance at right-angles to house door is good, enabling fresh air without draught." Mr. P. T. RuNTON. — With regard to the front parlour, this is a matter of experience. We have 600 people on our books waiting to come in. I say it is better to build a really good house. If they rise, let them rise, but let them rise through it. Some artisans would like to live in houses and have motors ; let them rise to it and let them earn it. Talking of parlours, we built a couple of dozen houses with parlours — I was in one of these houses tM o months ago — thej^ were all living in the scullery and have two parlours. With regard to your question with reference to three bed- rooms, cut your coat according to your cloth. I would rather have three bedrooms and let them take a lodger. With regard to bath — every corporation ought to do as we have done in Hull in order to encourage workmen to wash — charge no water rate for your bath. We have done this with the result we are now getting baths in every house that is built. This has been in vogue now some years. It is a benefit to the community to have water as free and cheap as possible. Mr. H. W. Taylor (Newcastle-on-Tyne). — Do you propose to take all points ? Mr. P. T. RuNTON. — I think all have been dealt with. Mr. H. W. Taylor. — I have refrained from dealing with a point as you said they would be taken in rotation. One point I wish to mention very particularly is in regard to baths. I am sorry to say in a great majority of cases these baths are used for storing coals, so much so that the Durham County Council do not press for baths. With regard to rural Housing I should like to refer to it very briefly. Mr. Runton has said that where it comes to the question of art galler}^ or Housing, Housing is preferable. In many cases in rural areas there is no water suppl}^ and people have to be content with the water they can find in a dirty ditch or pond and have to boil it. The worst is that when the rural district council attempts to provide a scheme to provide water they are met by the fact that the rateable value is so small they cannot afford it. In Essex, in one of the parishes, Id. rate produced lis. 8d., in another produced 15s. 6d. Believe me I am telling you the absolute truth. The 145 total amount which the rateable value those parishes produced was only £16. The rural Council were only too willing to have a water system, but it would burden the rates to something like 3s. 6d. in the £. With regard to concrete I quite agree it is not desirable for cottages for this reason. If you wish to use con- crete for walls, you either have to make them very thick, or if 3'ou make them thin the amount of steel you have to put in increases cost. If, on the other hand, you use concrete blocks, and there are makers ^^■ho advertise that the}' can make these blocks, my experience has been most unfortunate. Although they are hollow in the centre of the block, and they are not water tight, and the water will come through in an appalling manner, I thoroughly agree that concrete is not 3'et a suitable material for cottage construction. Mr. RuNTON. — There is one point with regard to baths in colliery districts. I had a consultation with one of the owners of collieries. I think the reason the baths are not being used is the water difficulty. With regard to those other districts where they have no water, I take it all rural councils that cannot afford water should be handed over to county councils. With regard to the likelihood of overcrowding I would say we had a census of our village some months ago, and found onlj" one case of overcrowding. 146 FOUR-ROOM COTTAGES £l-s 4£i^ s— I J4- sc:m ;7i tL ra3j FIVE-ROOM (PARLOUR) COTTAGES '1} Cottages designed for the Corporation of Chester By Messrs. T. Dod, E. J. Dod, and H. A. Dod. Map showing Location of Britisfi Garden City and Garden Suburb Scfiemes NINTH SESSION THE GARDEN SUBURB Friday, March 13th, Afternoon at 3.0 p.?/i. Chairnmn: EWART G. CULPIN, Secretary of the Garden Cities and Town Planning Association. Questions. — 1. Progress of the Garden Suburb Movement. 2. Garden Suburb, the Suburb of the Future. 3. Town Planning Schemes and their Relation to the Garden Suburb Movement. 4. Garden Suburb Architect and the Speculative Builder. 5. The Value of Public-utility Building Societies in Estate Development : their Influence in Germany. 6. Housing Problems in America. Mr. CuLPiN. — First of all we have to deal with the " Pro- gres.s of the Garden Suburb Movement." The word " Garden Suburb " has become so much a part of our common vocabulary that ^^'e hardly realise that it was only seven years ago that the first Garden Suburb was initiated. There was the Garden City four years earlier, but the Garden Suburb started in the 3^ear 1907, when, thanks to the endeavour of Mrs. Barnett, the piece of land now known as Hampstead Garden Suburb was purchased and the work of building thereof what has become the finest Garden Suburb m the world was commenced. Since then things have progressed wonderfully. In this country there are 77 schemes that come under the definition of Garden Suburb, and the movement has spread to other countries as well. In Germany alone there were 22 schemes well on the way and a score more in the process of inception. There is hardly a district in England where we do not find landowners busily engaged in laying out estates or where groups of indi- viduals are not combining on co-partnership lines to start Garden Suburb schemes. Last year 25 schemes were launched and on 20 of these building started. On those 25 no less than 1,500 acres were taken up, providing for an ultimate population of 90,000 people, who will be housed under what are thought to be the very best conditions. In none of these cases are the houses built at more than 12 to the acre, and some show less. This means that we have growing up in our midst a new force in town development. Not only with regard to moral and physical development, but with regard to social development, this movement is having effect. There is a great attempt made to organise the social life of the people. As this movement increases we hope these efforts being made to give social life to people will have a U7 more widely extended area of influence, I think there can be no doubt that the suburb of the future will not be what it has been in the past. We know what the past has made of our suburbs. We knoAV those long dreary lines of one-type house in a one-type street that are on every side as the result of the development of the last century. The suburb of the future will not be this. It will not be like that new-created death trap which was regarded 20 j^ears ago as a solution of the difficulty but which to-day has proved to be an increasmg difficulty. On the other hand it will not be that state of Arcadian bliss pictured by William Morris in " News from Nowhere." It will perhaps be more on the lines of the latter than of the former, but we are still awaiting the fulfilment of the dream of Isaiah of a new heaven and new earth. We realise it will only be by patient endeavour not only on the part of propagandist societies but also on the part of muni- cipalities and their officials, and such mstitutions as this, that out of the chaos of to-day will emerge the suburb that will be the expression of a different phrase of life because it will be not only houses but homes that we shall be creating, and because we shall be giving facilities for the development of new aspirations and a new life. There are years stUl of this educational work to be done. All exhibitions such as this deserve great encouragement. When we realise that the only real wealth a nation possesses is not its commerce, is not its fightmg power by land or sea, but the number of sound healthy men and women it possesses, if only to keep its fighting machme properly manned, we must, in order to keep our place in the race of nations, in order to keep that position which we boast of in the councils of the world, ensure that our population is housed not only in decent conditions, but that they have around their houses those conditions of life that are conducive to a higher plane of mental activity. We want a re-creation of beauty love amongst our population. I believe the dreariness of our suburbs of the last 75 years has gone far to crush out the love of the beautiful from the minds of those who have had to live there. And by love of the beautiful I mean not merely admiration for a picture or a sculpture, but love for that which is highest and that which is noblest in humanity. That is what we have got to get into the minds of the people if we wish to realise our ideals, and I believe that this movement is one of those movements which will help to bring it into bemg, because it is attempting to bring some beauty, some joy, some hope, into the things of every-day life. We must hope that the suburb of the future will fulfil in some measure those hopes and aspirations which I have ventured to predict. U8 The relation between the Garden Suburb movement and Town Planning is a close and intimate one. But now that the Garden City and Garden Suburb method of development has become an established success, it is necessary that we sliould have a clear-cut idea as to what is really meant when these things are spoken of. Not everything that is called a Garden City or a Garden Suburb has a claim to be so regarded, and particularly is this so in regard to some of the schemes which have been started in various parts of South Wales. In visiting some of the so-called Garden Cities which have been established in our mming centres, I am struck by the appalling fact that some of them are reproducmg the very evils of development which we have been striving to avoid. There is no proper lay-out plan ; there is no attempt at the orientation of the houses ; there is little artistic grouping ; and there is no conception of such a thing as a street picture. It is prac- tically the old thing re-hashed and decorated with, a title which it is not worthy to wear, and although some of the principles of co-partnership tenancy have been mtroduced, the title " Garden City " is an absolute misnomer. It is essential that a Garden City should be of considerable area, and its development should be in the hands of one controlling body, which should have for its ultimate object, not the making of huge profits, but the improvement of the conditions of life for all who live on the area. The estate should be somewhere from 6 to 10 square miles in area, and in order to give effect to the desire for the combination of town and country, about two-thii'ds should be reserved for the rural area. It combines the advantages of town and country, and prepares the way for a national movement, stemming the tide of the population now leaving the countryside and sweeping into our overcrowded cities. A Garden Suburb provides that the normal growth of existing cities shall be on healthy lines ; the co-operative holding of land is provided for, and the dividend to the promoters is strictly limited. But not aU developments will be upon these lines, and we welcome every effort of those far-seeing landowners who are developing their land upon our lines, although they might not take every leaf from our book. The private owner will not limit his return, but inasmuch as he is laying out his estate upon good Imes and is providing good houses, every one of these attempts must be welcomed. The Garden Suburb method must stand for something besides financial arrangements ; it must stand for the spirit which has animated the whole movement up to now and which is the secret of its success. " The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life," and however much certain financial adjustments may have been adopted by some of the South 149 Wales schemes, on the whole they are mimical to the Garden City movement and are proving a hindrance rather than a help. Where properly applied, there is no doubt that the method of development through a public-utility society may serve as an excellent way out for local authorities whose members are chary of undertaking municipal Housing. I am not pro- nouncing any opinion on the subject of municipal Housing, for or against, on that point, but merely mentioning a way in which houses may be provided without the necessity of semi- political agitation in the council house and at elections, for after all it is houses we want, and we must welcome every opportunity of securing them providing that they are going to be built properly. The example of Hereford is worth while studying in this respect, inasmuch as it provides an example whereby every community that wishes to do so may help the promotion of a public -utility society and get houses erected on decent lines without unduly risking one penny of the ratepayers' money. And one great advantage which schemes promoted by public- utility societies will always have over municipal schemes is, that as a consequence of the co-operation which is necessary between the tenants and between the various classes of share- holders, there grows up a communal spirit and a feeling of co- operative endeavour which is one of its most valuable features. Particularly does this apply to rural schemes. It is not enough to provide houses ; the people will want something besides the mere bricks and mortar, and the formation of societies on a co-operative basis will provide faciUties for bringing new advantages and new interests to the men, women, and children of the rural population, and will do a great deal to restore to the villages the " life " that has been so sadl}'- lacking in the past. Through its facilities for obtaining public money and the length of time for repayment of loans, it is a simple matter for the local authority to buy land, provide the necessary services — such as drainage, water, &c., and then lease it to approved societies and companies. This is what has been done at Hereford. In 1909, as the result of consistent effort on the part of several disinterested citizens, an agreement was entered into between the corporation and Hereford Co-operative Housing, Ltd., for the creation of a Garden Village on a block of 8 acres 30 poles, in the city of Hereford. The city secured the land and leased it for a period of 80 years to the Company. The maximum rent payable till 1932 is not to exceed £133, and after that date for the remainder of the term £62 per annum. The actual rent is taken at the cost per year to the city by way of principal, interest, and expenses in connection with 150 the loan raised for the purchase and laying out of the land. The terms are such as to ensure the corporation recovering the whole of the expenditure involved upon the municipality. The cost of the land is repayable in 80 years, but the cost of laying out has to be refunded in 22 years. An advantage to the company was that the corporation secured the money for the purchase of the land at the Government rate of interest. At the end of the term, when all repayments have been made, it is further provided that the corporation shall hand over the land, other than roads, &c., to the Company without further charge. Under the agreement the Company pays taxes, and had to provide not less than 30 nor more than 100 separate self- contained houses in two years from the date of signing, and this has been done. Safeguards are provided ensuring that none of the land shall, during the 80 years of lease, be used for advertisement hoardings, music-halls or theatres, noxious trades, or a public -house. The land cost £1,500. The rents of the houses range from 4s. 9d. to 7s. 9d. (including rates). The roads are laid out m picturesque curves, and there is a total width of 70 feet between the houses. The estate has now been completed and 86 houses have been erected. I believe in private Town Planning schemes something of this sort will very largely be carried out, and there is a desire in many cases for it to be done. I know from three distinct enquiries given to me this week that efforts are being made for other municipalities to act on these lines, which can ensure provision of open spaces and through various provisions see that there is a proper regard in the lay-out of the land and in the building of the houses. The question of the " Garden Suburb Architect and the Speculative BuUder " is a topic which is very interesting, but one which leads to nothing but hard words. Of course the speculative builder always comes m for a good drubbing at times like this, but we must not altogether forget that if it had not been for the speculative buUder there might have been worse accommodation in building than there is at the present time. The Garden Suburb has one point that should recom- mend it to the School of Civic Design. It has done more to provide work for the architects than any other movement that ever existed. Whether we will ever get it compulsory for a man when building a house to employ an architect, I do not know. We may hope that, with the growth of Town Planning schemes and the necessity there will be for something different from the rows of houses and cottages 20 in a block, the employment of architects will be the rule rather than the exception, as it is too often to-day. 151 The influence of public-utility societies in Germany on house building has not in the past been altogether to the good so far as the physical conditions are concerned. Co-partnership societies existed in Germany long before they did in this country. As a rule Housing has been done in block buildings, with an enormous number of people congested on an area. I believe Germany is finding out that that is not the best way to house her population, and despite the way they have built their towns they are coming to our country now to learn the application of Housing to Town Planning schemes. We have had visits from over 700 municipal German represen- tatives in the last four or five years in order that they may see the Garden Suburbs of this country. In consequence of the visit of one of those parties, in one city in Germany the corporation itself has started on the work of building cottages for no less than 32,000 people. They are being built upon the model of the English Garden Suburb. At the present time there are in Germany 22 public -utility societies who are housing people in Garden Suburb schemes. The societies suffer a great deal from the fetish of the wide street, which has been so popular among many German Town Planners. Despite the advance in thought in some quarters, the wide paved street is being insisted upon by many municipalities, and the cost of these is provmg to be prohibitive to the building of single-family cottages. In consequence, many schemes are being hung up. However, under the German Garden City Association there has been a lot of practical work done and legislation has been introduced in some places to enable these plans to go forward. We now come to the last subject, " Housing Problems in America." The problem of Housing in America is a totally different one from those we have to face in this country. It is a difference of climate, of people, of habit, of aspiration. There we are not dealing with a race of people with a national instinct, with a disciplined tradition of law-abiding obedience, but a virUe combination of many races which has not yet fully come into its own, and which perhaps only feebly comprehends itself, its powers, and its responsibilities, and which has not the tradition or the history behind it to assist in moulding its future. For instance, we lose all sense of proportion when we get to America and try to understand questions of wages, prices, and cost of building. Where a bricklayer will be earning 4s. an hour, and we find the prices of timber on the spot are often higher than we have to pay after it has been shipped into this country, we must expect a different problem altogether. Tlien again in America during the last few years the great struggle has been to get rich quickly and men have neglected most of the finer things of life. 152 A Letchworth Main Road An American Garden Suburb There has been a great triumph of endeavour and they have possibly been negligent of their communal responsibility. The towns are waking up. They are holding meetings and all sorts of organisations are starting to arouse civic consciousness. One striking organisation is the " Clean-her-up " campaigns which are being continually held. There is very little indeed of co-operative endeavour in America and nothing practical in the nature of co-partnership building in America. The suburbs of most of the cities are beautiful in the extreme. The absence of fences which is almost uniform in the better-class streets, generally planted with trees, makes a very charming effect as far as the landscape gardening is concerned, but there is a lack of regular features m the houses and a total absence of anything like a street picture owing to the monotonous gridiron way towns are laid out. At the last City Planning Conference in Chicago in May last year, steps were taken to form a co-partnership association, and endeavours are now being made to erect houses in this manner. Almost the only example of street architecture in America is the work of the Russell Sage Foundation, Forest Hills, New York . This cannot, however, compare in any way with Hampstead Garden Suburb, for example. A large sum of money was left for Housing purposes, but we find the lowest price at Long Island is about £1,700, which does not come into the category of Housing of the working classes. I am told the idea is to use this as an investment and the income is to be employed in solving the problem of Housing in other places. Now, ladies and gentlemen, we have gone through the subjects very casually and with some rapidity touched fringes of each of them. I have not attempted to set out in detail the Garden Suburb movement or show the difference between Garden City, Garden Suburb, and Garden Village. In conclusion, I would like to say what a pleasure it is to be speaking on this subject in Liverpool. Liverpool has had a very honourable connection with the Garden City movement. Port Sunlight has had its influence not only in this country, but throughout the world, and it has been an inspiration and a lesson to Housing reformers everywhere. And in the earliest days of the Garden City movement, when those connected with it were met with gibes and sneers and were thought to be mad, the greatest step forward was taken at a conference organised at Liverpool and Port Sunlight in 1902, as a result of which the forward movement began which resulted in the acquisition of the first Garden City estate, at Letchworth. A lengthy discussion ensued, dealing largely with the Hereford experiment, the basis of co-partnership, the number of houses to the acre, and the question of road-making con- struction under Town Planning schemes. 163 Mr. Taylor (of Newcastle) asked under what Act of Parliament the Hereford work had been done ; what guarantee the corporation required from the society ; and what happened to the property at the end of 80 years ? Mr. CuLPiN said : — (1) The land was acquired bj^ the corporation under Part III. of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, and was leased under the powers of Section 5 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1900. (2) The society enters into the ordinary covenants. (3) At the end of 80 years the land becomes the property of the society. In Germany the practice is that at the end of the time the land and houses become the property of the town. Mr, Taylor. — Have the corporation had any guarantees ? Mr. CuLPiN. — No guarantees ; but they have the land. Mr. Taylor. — The point I am trying to get at is this. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that the income from the estate during the first two or three j^ears did not amount to sufficient to pay the sinking fund to the corporation. AVhat happens then ? Does it fall on the rates ? Mr. CuLPiN. — No, sir ; the estate would have to find the money. Mr. Taylor. — The point I am asking is whether they give guarantees to find the money ? Mr. Culpin. — They are in the ordinary position of land- owner and tenant. Under section o of the Act of 1900 pro- vision is made for re-entry. Mr. Taylor asked if the consent of the Local Government Board was obtained in raising a loan for the work at Hereford. Mr. Culpin said the land could not be leased without the consent of the Local Government Board. In reply to further questions it was stated that the ordinary charges for road making were enforced and the roads would be maintained by the corporation. Mr. Taylor. — Are there any other instances where co- operation between town council and a syndicate as at Hereford has been carried into effect ? It seems to me this has a very far-reaching scope if it is feasible, and from ratepayers' point of view sound. It seems to me this is a solution we have been looking for for a long time. Mr. Culpin. — It has been done at Birmingham, where the Bordesley Green estate has been leased to the Ideal Benefit Society. 154 5- 5 -■I ^ < HI CO z < CO Mr. Alderman Bennett, of Warrington, raised the point of the number of houses to the acre. Warrington's maximum had been fixed at 20, but members of the Council thought the number was too little, it being impossible at that figure to make building pay. Mr. CuLPiN said the question of houses to the acre had already been dealt with in the Conference, but it would be useful to consult Mr. Unwin's pamphlet on the subject. As to the co-partnership schemes, they had no more than 12 houses to the acre. A number of them had during the past few days declared their 5 per cent, dividend and also bonuses to the tenants. Mr. Bennett asked what was the highest price paid in England for Garden Suburb Land. Mr. CuLPiN said about £400 an acre. The work was not easy when the figure got much above £400. Mr. Platt (of Rochdale) spoke on the question of roads under Town Planning schemes. The question was raised as to the increased cost of building. Mr. CuLPiN, in reply, said : The question has been men- tioned of the increasing cost of buildmg materials. I believe it is becommg rather a serious problem that will have to be considered in a more serious manner than it has been. It does seem to me we shall have to take into consideration whether special legislation will have to be passed to deal with what I suggest is the root cause of this increase m prices, and that is the existence of trade rmgs and trusts in the building trade. More than anything else these trusts have led to the increase in the cost of building materials and unless we can do something to stop it we shall not be able to reduce the cost of building or even to check the rapid increase. We could give mstances without end. To mention one item only — cement. I believe it is a fact that cement is now being pro- duced more cheaply than it was 10 years ago and yet the price is nearly threefold what it was. Whatever class of material we handle we find we have to pay more for it, and that not because of natural .shortage or because the cost of production is increased, but simply owing to the existence of these trusts which has squeezed oit all competition. I would seriously suggest that we have got to consider what legislation is neces- sary before we can resume economic building, and then press our opinions upon the House of Commons. Mr. Pemberton raised the pomt of why could not private property owners have the same facilities as a public-utility society. Finance was the greatest trouble to-day, and if builders could get financial assistance like a public-utility society more building and better building would be done. 155 Mr. CuLPiN said the reason the Commissioners were justified in allowmg public -utility societies the use of public money was because the societies were serving public functions. They limited their interest to 5 per cent. The builder could get an advance of 50 per cent, under the same Act. but if registered as a public -utility societ}^ they got two-thirds. On the question of concrete construction, Mr. Culpin referred to the Earswick cottages of £90, and to other examples of concrete building, and said from his point of view the chief objection was the terrible ugliness. Most people would be willing to pay a little more rather than have the countryside dotted with concrete cottages. ]Mr. Alderman Muirhead referred to the work of the Liver- pool Health Committee, Avho have charge of the roads there. He said they were very elastic in their judgment as to what pave- ments should be put down and judged as a rule by the necessities of the situation. They kept setts out wherever they could. In regard to Garden Suburbs, he was heartily in favour of them, but they should not be entitled to any concessions which could not be allowed to a private builder. Mr. Pemberton said if people required Garden Suburbs and showed a desire for them he was sure that the builder would follow the demand and would provide them. Mr. Culpin said, in referring to what Alderman Muirhead had remarked, that he would urge if an ordmary individual would in his development set aside 1 acre in every 10 for an open space, limit his number of houses to the maximum number of 12, limit his return to 5 per cent., then he ought to be allowed the same facilities. But at present there is a difference. You could not give the same facilities to people who were perpetuating the old bad system and were really acting against the public good by puttmg as many houses as possible on the acre as you would to those who are building only 10 and 12 houses to the acre. 156 LIVERPOOL GAR DIE. rt 5UBVRB TE/iAJ^T5: V"^: PRopo^ED DEVEiPPMEWT OF 1R4.R1 OF THE &STA.TE.: .i^ t: Jl r£S.-J^' fes K« aHJli tS'i ^rf Co-partnership Estate at Thingwall LIVERPOOL TENTH SESSION THE CO-PARTNERSHIP SYSTEM OF HOUSING Friday, March ISth. Afternoon at 7-30 p.m. Chairman: HENRY VIVIAN, Chairman of Co-partner shi]) Tenants, Ltd. Questions. — 1. The Experience of Co-partnership Methods. 2. The Interest of the Tenant-investor. 3. Financial Basis of a Co-partnership Scheme. 4. The Advantages of a Tcnvn Planning Scheme in the Develop^nent of a Co-partnership Estate. 5. Need for Greater Elasticity in the Building Bye-laws. Mr. Henry Vivian. — I am in the most fortunate position this evening of being my own chairman — no one to keep me in order — a great advantage in some ways. The manner of these gatherings is that the speaker who happens also to be the chairman should briefly deal with the headings set out and then leave it for the audience to put such questions as will bring out any other points. I have been asked to speak mainly on the Co-partnership System of Housing. First of all, may I describe the character of the Co-partnership system? In order to do so I must briefly compare it with the ordinary system of developing a residential estate. The usual system is for a private builder, perhaps, in conjunction with a landowner and those with capital, to take an area of land and erect houses, more or less substantial — according to the demand that comes along — and endeavour to sell those houses. Some of us feel that that system, although having advantages from some points of view, is not unaccompanied by disadvantages. To deal very briefly first of all with the community side of the question. Under such system we do not get a far-sighted conception of the way in which the residential estate should be laid out. Handling the thing piecemeal prevents those responsible from taking a wide view in planning their area, with the result that you get a piecemeal kind of estate, and communal needs tend to be neglected in many wa\s. Architecturally the estate is not thought of as a whole, and, as a rule, there is nothing in the shape of public buildings. The provision of such buildings, or the provision of spaces for them, is not considered as a rule to be quite a part of the 157 function of estate development ; and, as a rule, inadequate provision is made for open spaces. One reason for this, in addition to others, and that is that those who are developing residential estates do not consider that in years to come they will be responsible for them, their intention being to get out of possession and leave to others the responsibilit}^ of its administration. This is not so in the case of a great landowner. He would perhaps take a larger view of things. Just as an illustration, take for instance our great squares in London — Russell Square, Bedford Square ; they exist because that area was laid out generations ago under the direction of a great landowner who continued to own the land where that property was built. Generally, however, the intention of those owning residential areas is to get rid of their responsibilities, and naturally they are not concerned with the far-reaching needs of a community a generation or two hence. Houses are sold to individuals. Those who purchase them in the first case may be thrifty and intend well — taking care of the gardens, etc. — and you have one family to a house ; but after a time those houses gradually pass into the hands of those who are out for a bargain, and they make the most of the propert}^ they purchase from their own private and narrow point of view, which may mean that houses intended for one family are occupied by two or even three. I have seen during my own experience in London in 25 years whole areas built up and practically become slums as a result of this lack of control. A house here and there is sold, two families come in — different types of tenant altogether. The neighbours next door shrug their shoulders and so gradually you see the thing creep along until the Avhole character of the estate is changed because there is no power to arrest the decay m the beginning. These are some of the objections, from the point of view of the communit}^ to the ordinary methods of developing estates. Then from the individual point of view. It is not ah^ays wise for an individual with very little money — £25, £50, £100, £150, perhaps all he has in this world — to sink that all in a small house. First of all there are the risks of his own death or change of employment. Usually he pays down an instalment, borrows money through a law3'er, and pa^^s back the remainder of a capital sum in a period of years. He has little negotiable value until he has completed the repayments. If he has to move, he will have great difficulty in disposing of the house, unless there is a real boom on in the district, as there might be in an American town. It is more than an even chance that he will not realise what he invested in buying the house. On the other hand, if he lets it and leaves it to be handled by an estate agent, he will be extremely lucky if he gets tA\o-thirds of rent and one doubts if he will get half. I do not say 158 that under some circumstances there are not in the individual ownership system advantages in excess of the disadvantages, but some of us feel there is a possible alternative that is worth trying, and we call that " Co-partnership in Housing." We think it is possible by means of Co-partnership to lay out an estate so as to secure practically equivalent advantages for the tenant and to make reasonably adequate provision for the communal needs. Co-partnership carries with it this idea of lajang out and building an estate so that the needs of the whole community on that estate are thought of for practically all time and not merely temporarily ; and we believe that by combining a system of Co-partnership you can, on the whole, secure economic advantages to the individual resident that if not quite as great are almost as great as the economic advantages that would follow from ownership of a house. May I just briefly describe the growth of this Co-partnership movement, and then examine a little more closely what Co-partnership means. The movement as apphed to estate development originated at Ealing, in the west of London. There a few workers began to lay out a small estate we had secured. In 1903 the Ealing estate had about £10,000 of property. We found we had got hold of a financially sound idea, and we continued to extend our operations. That particular estate has now property to the value of about £250,000. As a result of this success, other Co- partnership estates were founded at Letch worth, Sevenoaks, Stoke-on-Trent, and Birmingham, and in 1907 they formed a business Federation known as Co-partnership Tenants, Ltd. Other societies were formed and estates were developed until, at the end of last year, they owned property to the total value of over £1,200,000. When all the estates are completed the cost value will be about £3,275,000. Other Co-partnership Housing societies have grown up that are not in close alliance with that Federation. They have benefited by our experience, but the central body has not taken financial responsibility for them. A corresponding movement has been started in Scot- land and in Wales, and you may be interested in knowing that a similar movement is taking place in Canada (in Toronto), and Mr. Armstrong reminds me that though they have not actually started estates yet, a movement is beginning in the United States. This gives \-ou an idea of the extent of the movement. With regard to its finance side and Co-partnership Tenants, Ltd., in particular : — The capital is raised in the usual ^^■ay from the public. Two kinds of capital as a rule are issued by all the Societies. Shares at 5 per cent, and preference stock or 159 " loan stock " at 4| per cent. Whatever profit is made no larger return will be paid to the capital owners. Each concern is managed in the usual way by a Committee or Board of Directors. As a rule tenants are expected to make investment when they become tenants of the society — £2, £5, or £20 — the amount sometimes varying according to the size of the house taken. The houses are let at a fair and usual rent, and after the interest I have referred to has been paid (4| or 5 per cent.) the balance of profit is allocated according to the Articles of Association or rules. Generally these are the provisions. (I am assuming all usual expenses are paid.) A certain amount is set aside for what I will call " property reserve fund," we being of the opinion that, apart from deca}' of structure, house property tends to decay in another way — tends to become less efficient as compared with newer property that may be built. A great deal of our empty property to-day is empty not because there is no demand for houses, but because those houses have not the conveniences and are not up to the standard of modern demands, and the owners of them, owing to there being no property reserve fund, have no capital to bring them up to date. One of the first charges on our revenue, therefore, should be the property reserve fund, so that we shall be able to bring our houses up to date. Another important point is that we say to investors — we are not guaranteeing you a big return upon your capital, but in the place of a big return, we are laying ourselves out to give you a good securit}'. One of the objects of this reserve fund is to insure investors against a decline in the productivity of the property, and in the long run the great mass of investors will prefer security to risk. Property reserve fund having been allowed for, 10 per cent, of the balance goes to a social and educational fund, 10 per cent, as a rule to the Board of Management, and 80 per cent, is allotted among tenant investors as a dividend on their rent. During the first four or five j'ears on an estate, the return to tenants may not be large, but you will see that this plan is an effective means by which what is called unearned increment is retained for residents on the estate. Investors get security, but resi- dents on estates get the benefit of improvements. That, I think you will see, rather supports my contention that on the whole economic advantages of a matter of this sort are practically as great as if an individual house had been purchased by an individual resident, and through these advantages j^ou will see that Co-partnership control over the whole thing ensures prevention of decay, and consequent heavy depreciation of the property. Whilst a tenant remains he has practically all the economic advantages of individual ownership in addition to 160 the attraction of a well-planned estate. On the other hand, if he moves he can go to Newcastle or New York, and if the estate has been well managed his £200 retains its value and he draws his 4| or 5 per cent, in any part of the world. In practice it is the custom to enable him to draw his investment out if he wishes, I do not suppose that I have really made that point — the point of co-partnership tenancy — fully plain to you, but I shall be happy for you to ask any questions that may occur to you. What I have said may suggest points to you. On the community side, I think you have only to look at our plans and you will see what I mean as to co-partnership estates being laid out to meet communal needs as regards taking full advantage of the natural beauties of the estate, the pro- vision of open spaces and so on ; the truth being that the co-partnership body that owns it will be owning it in 50, 100, or 1,000 years, and they therefore cannot afford to turn a quick penny of profit next year to do something that will cost them in 20 years many times that sum. The ordinary person wishing to sell his house at once is not concerned with what will happen in 20 years. One is compelled to take what I should call a long view, and the other by the nature of the case, takes a short view of profit. In this matter of Housing and Town Planning, the long view is of vital im- portance — it is the essence of the thing. It is because those who are responsible for the present houses have taken the long view that the co-partnership estates are permanently healthy areas. The co-partnership method also leads to a rather high standard of social organisa- tion on these estates. The mere fact that they have their loan stock or some other kind of stock in the concern causes the tenants to have an interest in the thing as a whole rather than as a part, and this draws out the social spirit. We also think that the development of an estate like this harmonises with the larger idea of the planning of a large town. Take our Liverpool experience. Our friends at the town hall will say they found it more possible to take up Town Planning in the area of Wavertree, where our Liverpool co-partnership estate is. The idea of planning an estate on public-spirited lines harmonises with the idea of planning towns on similar lines. If you do not have this kind of thing, your Town Planning will resolve itself into planning great main arteries. Whilst a local authority may be quite able to meet the mechanical requirements of towns, the finer touches that really beautify the town must spring from the civic spirit of a much wider circle than that of the town hall. The corporation can lay down rigid rules about roads, etc. ; they can sa}'- you 161 shall devote so many acres for open spaces, with the road here and the railway there. They can lay down broad mechanical lines for main arteries. But no corporation has been made j^et that can put the finishing touches onto^\Tls. If you expect it you will be disappointed. That can only come from a wider circle of minds. We do, wherever we can, work in harmony with the local authority. Take the case of Hamp- stead. We were five years before the adoption of the To^\ii Planning Act in that district. We approached the council with our plan on Town Planning lines. They added another 1,000 acres, and the whole area is now going through the Local Government Board as one large scheme, our scheme being the pioneer. The same applies here at Liverpool. Then just one other point with regard to working in har- mony with the local authority. We believe in give and take in matters of bye-laws. I want to repeat what I said last Saturday; you must have elasticity. Your public authorities are bound to be more or less rigid and wooden in these things. We want elasticity. I do not believe in giving power to the town hall to alter bye-laws just as they like. They would not in all cases be altered for the public good. Make sure that any such alteration is done in public spirit and not in private spirit. We in our schemes are able to make concessions to public authorities in return for well-conceived modification. I will give one or two illustrations. Li the old bj'e-laws some of them lay down 45 or 50-feet road as the minimum. Experts tell me that this was considered to be one waj^ of getting fresh air through a district. It never occurred to them to limit the number of houses to the acre, and, therefore, where builders were at liberty to put up 50 houses to the acre thej^ said we must have fresh air — we cannot have parks, so we insist on them having fresh air through 45-feet roads. This was one of the reasons for making these roads. If we, instead of putting 45 or even 50 houses to the acre, enter into a contract that we will only put 10, we will devote one in every 10 acres to open spaces, surely the object you have in view in making these 45-foot roads is obtained. In this give - and - take way, we can obtain con- cessions on the matter of roads because we are generous in the matter of land. Broadlj' speaking on the administration of bye-laws, I want to say, speaking from experience, that often it is not fair (I am not now making any reference to Liverpool). When we have sent in a plan and made all these efforts in the public interest and asked for concessions in return, also in the public interest, we have found that these points have to be adjudicated upon by a 162 Views in Co-partnersliip Estate at Tiling wall LIVERPOOL CO-PARTNERSHIP ESTATE. committee at the town hall that consisted, perhaps, t\N'o- thirds of it, of our competitors. Yon cannot get justice in this way. Justice is obtain- able only from people who have no interest one way or the other. I would not give power to a public authority be^'ond certain broad lines. We want power of appeal on the administration of bye-laws to an independent tribunal who have no interests in the district. Mr. H. Grayson (Liverpool). — How soon do you generally find 3'ou can start to pay interest on your borrowings ? Mr. Vivian. — I think that, with the exception of one of oiir estates, we have paid interest on capital from the beginning ; the demand for houses has been so good. Normally speaking the pressure of demand has been so good that our houses have been occupied within three or four months of their being started. A Delegate. — May I ask as to whether property reserve fund has been deducted before paying dividend to shareholders, and if so what proportion do you deduct ? Mr. Vivian. — I would not like to say in every case, but I think in practically every case we make it a charge before profits are reckoned. The amount varies a little, but is usually from 6s. 8d. to 10s. per cent. 6s. 8d. accumulated at 4 per cent, will give you your capital over again in 65^ j^ears, and 10s. per cent, at 3| in 60 1 years ; we think that adequate provision. Mr. Abercrombie (Liverpool). — What is the interest paid on your Manchester estate ? That is a complete estate. Mr. Vivian. — The Manchester estate is one that we helped to develop, but the responsibility for administration rests on local people. If my memory serves me aright, they are pay- ing interest on shares, and they have made a modest payment on rents — whether 6d. or Is. I do not remember. We have two societies complete at Hampstead. Our idea is that on a big estate like Hampstead you should complete your capital expenditure on a given area and then start a new society, so that the risks of the capital are clearly defined. The owners can then say, We have finished ; we know what we have got. This is our asset. A Delegate. — May I ask what is the ground rent to pay in Liverpool ? Mr. Vivian. — I do not think I should answer that in a public meeting. If you put a general question, if you say " What sort of prices do you pay for j'our land generally ? " I will answer it. 1G3 Broadly speaking, prices we pay for our land vary from £190 per acre up to £400 per acre. I think those are the minimum and maximum prices, speaking from memory. As to ground rents, I think our maximum on different estates would be £20 an acre. Mr. Bogle (Liverpool). — May I ask a question with regard to this matter of developing these societies as business pro- positions. That seems to me most important. I understand 10 houses to the acre is the minimum satisfactorj'. I should be glad to know if I am right ? Could you give us any idea of the average rents and costs of these houses, because we hear a good deal of such places as Port Sunlight, and Bournville started at financial loss, and it is interesting to hear this is a paying concern. In what way can you make it so ? Mr. VnaAN. — With regard to Port Sunlight and Bournville, Bournville I believe pays 4 per cent. Port Sunlight does not, I understand, pay directly, but the owner gets an advantage in the better health of his workmen. With regard to the others, it is done by securing land at a reasonable price and proceeding on fairly economical lines in other ways. It is not a case of buy and sell again. We get raw land and the houses are let direct to the tenants. Our legal expenses are wholesale, and so on. We pay cash. We have never failed to do this for the last 10 years. That means our credit stands high, A number of small margins enable 3'ou to turn the scale. The number of houses per acre varies a little. They average eight at Hampstead, 10 at Liverpool, and 12 at Ealing. With regard to the average value that would be extremely difficult to say. They vary so. At Hampstead the houses are from 6s. and 7s. a week up to £50 or £200 a year. There is no idea of limiting to an}^ particular rent. I think an estate is stronger the wider range 3"0U place on your community. A Delegate. — I should like a little more information about these 10 houses to the acre. It seems to me a very dangerous rule to lay down. Mr. ViVLf^N. — I am not suggesting they should be limited to 10 to the acre. I am only saying what we are doing. Mr. W1LLLA.MS. — May I ask — I am looking at the map — Is the Liverpool Garden Suburb inside or outside the Liverpool municipality ? Mr. Vivian. — I think it is inside. Mr. Williams. — It does not look to me from here to be inside. 164 XAL CYCUS GROUND FLOOR PLAN ^-^u (.tPKODM. FIRST FLOOR PLAN Plans of Typical Parlour Houses in Fieldway LIVERPOOL CO-PARTNERSHIP ESTATE. Mr. Vivian. — Tlierc were two areas, one inside, and one originally outside. Both are inside now. Mr. Williams. — What effect, if you begin your operations outside, would the bringing within the city and bringing within city rates have upon your revenue. I take it first when building j^ou were outside with Cs. rates, and when within at lis. rates. What effect would that have ? Another point I want to ask with reference to the statement you made when you said the society reserved a fund for the purpose of restoring or maintaining or keeping its property up to date. That is an especially wise thing to do. I have done it m^'self. But I would like to ask you, being a public body, are you allowed that sinking fund as a deduction from your income tax ? If you do so you escape this taxation, and you get an advantage that a private owner does not get. Mr. Vivian. — We have not yet built on the land on what was the outside area, so that your first point has not arisen. With, regard to your question about income tax, we are assessed the same as any other property owner is assessed, Mr. Eaton (Liverpool). — Is it your intention in time to build 15, 20, 25 houses to the acre ? I have a great admiration for open spaces. But to my mind the houses you are building in Liverpool are rather small. The height of the rooms is not over great. It seems to me the houses are very healthy and well built. Part of my duty is to supervise the erection of them. Would they not be healthier if the rooms were higher and some of the open space outside the house inside the house ? Ladies live in the house most of the time night and day. We have 12 houses to the acre where there used originally to be 40 or 50. Have you not swung the pendulum too much the other way so that your Garden Suburb scheme will not go as rapidly as you would wish ? You have gone from one extreme to the other. Mr. Vivian. — I thmk this point is perfectly arguable. With regard to the heights of rooms, that is always a debatable point. Frankly I think there is little or nothing in it. If your ventilation point is put in your highest point in your room you will get a healthier room than if you had a higher room with the ventilation point half-way down. The House of Commons is very un- healthy, yet they have rooms there very high and very unhealthy. The space above the ventilation point accumulates dust. There is never a complete " blow through " of fresh air. If you add to the height of your room unnecessarily, that is waste of money. With regard to the other point, i have this sort of feeling — I may be wrong — that gradually we shall get our working 165 people to move up Is. or 2s. with their rent for house and enable us to put up a bigger house. Wages are all tending to rise on the whole. I think they will rise more quickly during the next 20 years than in the past. If we can persuade our people to feel that the best investment they can make is with us and that say half of any increase in wages would be well used as rent, then, I tlimk, Mr. Eaton, we can mamtain our mmimum houses of 10 or 12 to the acre and get a bigger house for them. But apart from that, our tenants must decide for themselves whether they prefer the open space and contracted houses. In my opinion, contracted houses often give the best family conditions. Mr. Culpin wiU bear me out on that point. In order to give 10 houses to the acre we cannot be lavish in space inside. You want a race of people who can earn more. Everything that tends to increase his earning power — ^health, strength, imagination, and ideas — makes a man better able to get £3 a week instead of £2. Mr. Pemberton (Warrington). — AVliat you are up against now is not only increased wages ; the low-priced labourer cannot afford to pay economic rent. You cannot let a house at economic rent to a man who has 18s. a week. I thmk you mentioned something with regard to trusts this afternoon. Look at the cement trust and the brick trust. These are not going to be done away with unless by legislation. People are not recognising the danger of them. You are up agamst that — I do not see how you are gomg to reduce 3^our cost ; it is mcreased cost of material and labour that put the prices of houses up — not only the mcreased cost of land. Mr. Vivian. — These mterestmg questions are matters that one might spend not only one night over — ^you might have another Conference for another week. Mr. Pemberton says wages in the buildmg trade necessarily raise the cost of pro- duction. That is a debatable point. I do not think it is necessarily so true as our friend says. I have a belief that intelligence properly applied, that contmually increasmg wages Avithm reasonable limits is consistent with reduction in cost of production. All I can say, sir, is that the opmion I have expressed is not founded on mere theory but practical experience. I am not speaking as a student only. AVith regard to trusts, I quite agree. You have to face trusts. I do not know that there is any particular remedy. It is a difficulty I am afraid we have no simple solution of. Mr. E. G. Culpin (Garden Cities Association, London). — As to the question of wages, I know of an enterprise in whicli they paid labourers 7M. an hour. They went down and built the same class of material in the country and the cost 166 of lal)our was 3d. an hour los>. TIio first houses cost thorn only £50 apiece more. There is no necessary connection between actual amount paid in wages and the cost of the resulting commodity, I could give cases of men who are earning 7kl., and where the product is as cheap for lid. and llkl. as it is for 7d. Mr. H. W. Taylor (Newcastle-on-Tyne). — Sometimes you buy the land freehold and other times you take it on leasehold. What is the shortest possible period for leasehold property you have found practical. Mr. Vivian. — We have nothing less than 90, and we should not take land for less than 99 years. Mr. Pemberton (Warrington). — In the building bye-laws one of the most important pomts is that relating to the height of rooms. I would like to know if your societies have tried to get this modified in your districts. The district I built in was the rural district of Runcorn. I left four times the amount of cubic space allowed by the bye-laws, but they would not allow me to reduce my height of rooms. They said, " They are the bye-laws — we cannot alter them." Mr. Vivian. — I entirely agree with our friend. He asks if we have done anything in tliis matter. I have been engaged almost day and night for seven years on this. I have been at the Local Government Board and local authorities. I agree entirely that many bye-laws are perfectly nonsensical, A Delegate (Scotland). — In Scotland people have been almost always dwellers in tenements ; it is an established fact that the character of the Scotch people is suited to such a method. Mr. Vivian. — I should have my doubts about that. If you will examine the big cities of Scotland you will find they have lived as London has lived. If you had put a ring round any big city during the nineteenth century it would have gone back to its original condition, the wilderness. If it is not capable of reproducing life there is something evil. Edinburgh, like most big towns, has lived on new blood from the country. A Delegate (Scotland). — Will you allow me as a Scotch- man to answer the gentleman who has referred to my national characteristics as related to Housing ? If it were not for the invasion of country life, the people in these big cities would ultimately in four generations become extmct. You cannot house a country on a line that is against the natures of the people who live in it. I was brought up in a tenement house in the country. The environment was unusually favourable. 167 There was 60 feet of a street in front of me and a garden behind me, so my environment was good, but in Glasgow the tenement principle of construction is a preposterous system. A person has to go up six storeys high before he can get air. They are trying the same in Liverpool. Mr. E. G. CuLPiN. — I would emphasize the point that official statistics have been published. If my friend will read the statistics he will find the death rate in tenements is five times as large as in cottages. A Delegate. — Is each of your schemes self-supporting, or do they gain some support from the whole ? Mr. Vivian. — No, each is separate. They get the help of Co-partnership Tenants, Ltd., in buying, capital raising, &c., but no subsidy. 168 UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY BERKJXEY Return to desk from which borrowed. This book is DUE on the last date stamped below. REC'D U5 NOV 14 1957 290ct'58GM REC D L OCT 291958 LD 21-100m-ll,'49(B7146sl6)476 YD 34208 '^ riMdLi