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 ON 
 
 THE BEST MEANS OF DEALING 
 
 WITH 
 
 EXCEPTIONAL DISTRESS 
 
 THE REPORT OF A SPECIAL COMMITTEE 
 
 OF THE 
 
 (15 BUCKINGHAM STREET, STKAND, LONDON, W.C.) 
 
 NOVEMBER 1886 
 
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 1886 
 
 ALL RIGHTS KFSERVED
 
 SPECIAL COMMITTEE 
 
 OF THE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 BEST MEANS OF DEALING WITH EXCEPTIONAL DISTRESS. 
 
 I.-THE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Mr. ALBERT PELL, CJiairman. 
 
 Rev. BROOKE LAMBERT. 
 Hon. and Rev. Canon LEGGE. 
 Mr. J. H. ALLEN. 
 Mr. J. R. HOLLOND. 
 Hon. C. W. FREMANTLE. 
 Mr. E. PETERS. 
 Mr. F. J. S. EDGCOMBE. 
 Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD. 
 
 Dr. G. B. LONGSTAFF. 
 
 Sir JOHN TILLEY, K.C.B. 
 
 Rev. DONALD FRASER, D.D. 
 
 Rev. M. S. A. WALROND. 
 
 Mr. A. G. CROWDER. 
 
 Hon. and Rev. A. C. STANLEY. 
 
 Mr. GEORGE SHIPTOX. 
 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 Mr. R. HEDLEY, in attendance on behalf of the Local Government Board. 
 
 II 
 
 -CONTENTS. 
 
 PAGE 
 
 THE REPORT 
 WITNESSES : 
 
 Mr. A. P. FLETCHER . 
 
 Mr. R. A. VALPY . 
 
 Mr. J. R. J. BRAMLY . 
 
 Mr. W. M. ACWORTH . 
 
 Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD . 
 
 Mr. W. VALLANCE 
 
 Mr. T. GAGE GARDINER 
 
 Mr. W. H. O. JACK 
 
 Hon. and Rev. Canon LEGGE 
 
 Mr. T. MACKAY . , 
 
 Mr. T. W. MARCHANT . . 
 
 Mr. W. HEALE . 
 
 Miss M. M. GEE . . . 
 
 Mrs. Avis 
 
 1 
 
 12 
 19 
 27 
 33 
 40 
 49 
 56 
 62 
 68 
 72 
 75 
 80 
 82 
 
 WITNESSES continued : 
 
 Mr. F. J. DOVE . 
 
 Mr. R. ROBERTS . 
 
 Miss F. R. WILKINSON . 
 
 Mr. G. COLLIE 
 
 Mr. G. T. WESTBEOOK . 
 
 Mr. G. DEW .... 
 
 Mr. M. STEPHANY . . 
 
 Mr. J. D. POWELL 
 
 Mr. A. S.'ANDREWS 
 
 Mr. N. Moss .... 
 INDEX. 
 FORMS : 
 
 APPLICATION FORM, A. 
 
 RELIEF IN KIND FORM, B. 
 
 INQUIRY OF^ EMPLOYERS FORM, 
 
 89 
 
 89 
 
 98 
 
 101 
 
 106 
 
 113 
 
 118 
 
 123 
 
 128 
 
 mi 
 
 C.
 
 EXCEPTIONAL DISTEESS. 
 
 REPORT. 
 
 THE reference to your Committee was ' to report upon the best means of The liofrrence. 
 dealing with exceptional distress, should it occur in a future year.' In the 
 past winter much new experience should have been gained on this subject, 
 and it was thought well to try and gather it together, to put it in a perma- 
 nent form, and to draw conclusions on many questions of principle and 
 detail, on which there had been differences of opinion and varieties in 
 practice. The Committee have had before them documents showing what 
 was done at other periods of exceptional distress ; they have received letters, 
 notes, and reports from many quarters ; and they have examined 22 wit- 
 nesses, whose evidence is appended to this Report. Information has been 
 collected from persons in all classes of society, and, it is believed, upon most 
 of the points of importance in regard to exceptional distress so far as it 
 concerns the metropolis. Some of the readers of this Heport, and students 
 of charitable and social questions, will, the Committee hope, refer to the 
 evidence itself, of which a careful index has been made. They will find that 
 the situation is extremely grave ; that there are permanent causes of distress 
 which it is impossible for philanthropy to cope with, or even in any 
 sufficient degree to palliate by schemes of direct relief ; and that those 
 causes suggest other remedies, beyond the scope of this Report, in regard to 
 which the public and individuals must make their decision, if much of 
 what is now termed ' exceptional distress ' is not to assume a chronic form. 
 
 By ' exceptional distress ' the Committee do not mean such distress as 
 was experienced at the time of the Cotton and Irish Famines, but such 
 as there was last winter in London, and e.g. in the years 1860-61 and 
 1878-79. 
 
 The Committee propose to consider 
 
 I. Exceptional Distress in 1860-61, and the difficulties then encountered. 
 
 II. Several points of general importance in connection with Distress in 
 the Metropolis, viz. : 
 
 (1) Charitable feeling and non-fulfilment of local responsibilities ; 
 
 (2) The necessity of training in the work of almsgiving ; 
 
 (3) The differences of different parts of London ; 
 
 (4) Arrangements for obtaining information as to the existence or 
 
 nature of distress ; 
 
 The ' chronic ' or ' permanent ' poor, and their participation in 
 public alms ; 
 
 The independent artisan and labourer ; the improvement in his 
 social position, contrasted with a reduction in the amount dis- 
 tributed in wages and a demand for cheaper goods : his safeguards 
 against distress, and the alternative courses which his position 
 suggests. 
 
 III. The Agencies for Relief. 
 
 (1) The Poor Law, and its function generally : (a) its provisions for 
 dealing with Exceptional Destitution ; (b) the Workhouse ; (c) the 
 Labour Yard. 
 
 ' Exceptional 
 Distress.' 
 
 Plan of the 
 Report. 
 
 2074185 
 
 A '1
 
 (2) Relief by Employment : (a) last winter's experiences at White- 
 
 chapel, at Wandsworth, and in connection with the Public Gardens 
 Association ; (b) suggestions as to rates of wages, &c. 
 
 (3) Charitable Relief : (a) existing agencies ; (6) a Central Committee 
 
 for dealing with Distress ; (c) [Appendix] Local Committees and 
 their rules. 
 
 I. EXCEPTIONAL DISTRESS IN 1860-61. 
 
 Evidence of In 1861 it was estimated that about 40,000 was raised to meet the 
 
 Mr.T. Paynter, unusua [ distress in London during the winter. 1 A very large part of this 
 was distributed at the Police Courts. Mr. T. Paynter, 2 at that time one 
 of the magistrates at the Westminster Police Court, thus described what 
 took place to a Select Committee of the House of Commons. 3 In 
 December, January, and February, 1860-61, they received at the Court in 
 charitable contributions and expended about 800. 'We had,' he said, 
 ' no knowledge ourselves whether [the applicants] were in distress or not. 
 If you will permit me, I will state in what way we distributed relief before 
 that time. When I came to the Court I found that a practice had ejrown 
 up of receiving, what were in fact, begging letters ; a very large number of 
 them came to the Court every day. I sometimes had upwards of 50 to 
 open, which is of itself rather a serious encroachment upon the business of 
 a police magistrate. A great number of these letters were written in the 
 same hand, and came from the same lodging-house. We understood (I 
 didn't know it of my own knowledge) that there were persons who made a 
 trade of writing these letters at a penny each, and then there was a penny 
 stamp, so that it cost the person twopence to make the application. We 
 understood that the application was very generally made at the instance of 
 the landlord of the house, and, in fact, was an application to get his rent paid, 
 and that in other cases it was made by certain persons who were interested 
 in the sum obtained by the poor man. I was very desirous of putting a 
 stop to that, but it had grown up and become so inveterate that it was not 
 easy to do so ; and as long as we had a surplus in our poor box, and had no 
 Distribution of other means of distributing it, I did not very well see what else to do ; but 
 'cards.' when the pressure came, the number of letters were so many that it was 
 
 absolutely necessary to take some other course. I then proposed that we 
 should issue cards, which should be placed in the hands of the clergy, of the 
 district visitors, of the Scripture readers, the City missionaries, the medical 
 men connected with dispensaries, and others, who from their habits of 
 life must almost necessarily be acquainted with the real condition of the 
 poor. One day, when I was absent from the Court, there was a very 
 extraordinary pressure ; a great crowd was about the doors of the Court, 
 and in order to satisfy them at all, without giving them money, a card was 
 given to each. Then, of course, they applied again for cards, but after two 
 or three days we found that it was impossible to go on distributing cards, 
 that it brought as great a number of persons as if we had given money, for 
 Belief I iy re- they seemed to think that the card was a voucher upon which they were to 
 commendation, obtain money ; therefore we refused to give any cards at the Court, and 
 sent them through the police to the clergy of all denominations, the 
 Scripture readers and others, who we thought would exercise some dis- 
 crimination, and only recommend persons who were really entitled to 
 relief. To a certain extent that lessened the pressure on the Court, and 
 
 1 Select Committee on Poor Belief (England). First Report (April 19, 
 1861) ; Mr. W. Gilbert Questions 4311 and 4415. 
 
 - Q. 2841, &c. 
 
 3 Mr. C. P. Villiers was Chairman of the Committee. Among the members 
 were Sir Gecrge Bowyer, Mr. Lowe, and Mr. Monckton Milnes. 
 
 P.tyvnent of 
 reat.
 
 Ill 
 
 also remedied the evil of indiscriminate distribution, but only partially. I 
 should be very glad to think that one half of the money which we dis- 
 tributed was really well and properly applied.' The card gave the name and 
 address of the poor person, the cause of his distress, the number of his family, 
 and the name of the person recommending him. There was a notice on the 
 card : ' No donation will be made to persons receiving parish relief, or of 
 intemperate habits. Assistance will be most readily granted in those cases 
 of temporary distress, where such assistance is likely to afford permanent 
 and effectual relief, and especially in cases arising out of, or connected with, 
 the business of the Court.' The clergyman or district visitor filled up the 
 card, and gave it to some person who, in his opinion, deserved relief. 
 'It was then brought to the magistrate, who, judging as far as he could 
 from the particulars on the card, wrote on the back the sum that should 
 be given to that applicant, and thereupon the officer of the Court charged 
 with distributing the fund gave that sum to the party presenting the 
 card' . . . 'but the person recommending was often just as much unknown 
 to us as the poor person himself, and therefore, unless we made inquiry 
 through the police, the reference _was useless.' . . . ' This sort of indis- 
 criminate relief was decidedly calculated ' ' to encourage imposture and 
 pauperism, and its tendency is, and its conclusion must be, to make a large 
 portion of the labouring classes of London a mob of mendicants/ . . . 
 ' There were occasional complaints ' [' against the relieving officer, alleging 
 that he would not give relief], ' but I do not imagine that the applications 
 at the workhouse became so very numerous, as would otherwise have been 
 the case, because the parties found it much easier to get the 7s. and 10s. 
 from us than to undergo the test which they must have undergone at the 
 workhouse, and also the more strict inquiry.' . . . ' I think that the 
 district visitors ought to know more of [the poor] than any others, where 
 they have some discretion and judgment, and know how to make the 
 inquiry [as to ' their real condition '] ; but you never can know the condition 
 of the poor generally in a London district unless you are able to unite a 
 body of inquirers who are administrators of the fund from a variety of 
 classes ; our sectarian habits prevent us from forming those agencies which 
 are so useful in France. You cannot get the Roman Catholics, and the 
 Protestants, the Episcopalians and others, to act together ; but the district 
 visitors certainly have a greater opportunity, and some of the medical men 
 who practise in these quarters.' 
 
 There are, in the Report from which this is quoted, descriptions of the 
 administration of relief, which differ in detail from that given by Mr. 
 Paynter, but show rather greater laxity. Mr. Bowring, the Clerk to the 
 City Guardians, said that [' the circumstance that two magistrates were 
 sitting, distributing relief indiscriminately to all who chose to apply to them '] 
 * was as if two additional relieving officers were put on, one at the Mansion 
 House and the other at Guildhall distributing money instead of provisions; 
 and instead of its coming out of the poor rates, it came from public subscrip- 
 tion. [' The Poor Law '] did not break down in the City of London ; it was 
 never tried.' 1 At the Thames Police Court, ' generally a number of persons, 
 sometimes to the amount of 2,000, collected about the Court . . . there 
 was a large amount of silver, and it was given to the applicants as they 
 passed along, as fast as possible.' 2 Mr. Yardley, one of the magistrates 
 who gave this evidence, was asked how it was that in 1854-55, when the 
 winter was as severe as in 1860-61, 900 was sufficient, whereas in the 
 latter year 4,000 had been distributed by the Court. He replied, 3 ' I 
 
 1 Select Committee on Poor Relief (England) : First Report (1861). Q. 97 
 and 99. 
 
 2 Id. Mr. Edward Yardley. Q. 2193. 
 
 3 Id. Q. 2271. 
 
 Card or 
 application 
 form, 1860. 
 
 Results. 
 
 Poor Law not 
 used. 
 
 Best means of 
 obtaining 
 information. 
 Body of 
 inquirers from 
 a variety of 
 
 Evidence of 
 Clerk to the 
 City 
 
 Guardians, 
 1860. 
 
 Evidence of 
 Mr. YardHy. 
 Distress in 
 1854-5 and 
 1860-61 
 compared.
 
 IV 
 
 Extni 
 pauperism 
 caused by 
 distress in 
 I860. 
 
 1860-61 and 
 1886 compared 
 
 Conclusions 
 
 Select 
 
 Committee. 
 
 work 
 
 Of 
 
 will not say [' that there was no necessity for more' in 1854]; that is 
 assuming that all the relief was given which might be given. I will say in 
 favour of this year that there was a marked contrast between the conduct 
 of the people in 1855 ; there was a great disposition in 1855 to riot and 
 disorder, whereas . . . the people in the district of the Thames Police 
 Court were this year remarkably well behaved.' Mr. H. B. Farnall, the 
 Poor Law Inspector for the Metropolitan District, gave evidence 1 that in the 
 five weeks of frost in 1860-61, the ' extra pauperism ' had ranged from 6,648 
 in the first week to 38,637 in the fourth week, and 28,664 in the fifth. 2 
 
 The bearing of this reference to the Report of the Select Committee of 
 1861 upon the question submitted to your Committee will be evident. 
 There was last winter, on various grounds, a .similar reluctance to resort to 
 or utilise the Poor Law. 3 There was a similar distribution of forms in 
 some instances, 4 and similar crowds at the offices ; and the question of 
 inquiry and the use of references and recommendations on an emergency is 
 opened out. 5 Relief by way of payment of rent, given to the tenant, 
 appears also to have been not infrequently relief to the landlord. On the 
 other hand, it will be evident that progress has been made in many ways. 
 
 The resolution of the Select Committee in 1861 was, it should be added, 
 as follows : 6 
 
 1 That, with respect to the extraordinary prevalence of distress in the 
 metropolis in the winter of 1860-61, to which the attention of your 
 Committee was particularly directed, they received strong evidence that such 
 distress could have been relieved by the Poor Law authorities, inasmuch as 
 the legal machinery of administration was sufficient, and the Guardians 
 possessed the requisite powers for raising the necessary funds for the 
 purpose ; but the legal charge would have pressed very heavily on some 
 parishes within the metropolis. 7 The regular action, however, of the Poor 
 Law was, to a considerable extent, rendered unnecessary by voluntary 
 contributions; and however desirable it is that in great emergencies 
 destitution should be relieved by spontaneous charity, your Committee 
 find that, on the occasion in question, evils resulted from the want of a 
 sufiicient organisation for the investigation of the cases of the persons 
 relieved.' 
 
 Other evidence respecting the years 1860-61 and 1878-79 the Com- 
 mittee have utilised in subsequent portions of this Report, but their 
 attention has been mainly directed to the experiences of last winter, and to 
 these they now pass. 
 
 II. (1) CHARITABLE FEELING AND NON-FULFILMENT OF LOCAL 
 RESPONSIBILITIES. 
 
 One most important factor in any scheme of relief is what one witness 
 termed ' the charitable world,' 8 the many thoughtless contributors to relief 
 
 1 Select Committee on Poor Relief (England) : First Report (1861). Mr. 
 Edward Yardley. Q. 3038. 
 
 2 Id. p. 123. With these figures may be compared the returns of pauperism 
 in the metropolis in February and March, 1880. The ' extra pauperism' (i.e., 
 the increase over the previous year, 1885) was in the first week of February 
 last, 2,738 ; in the third week, 6,130 ; in the third week of March, 8,848 the 
 highest figure. In making this comparison with 1861, the large increase in the 
 population of the metropolis should be borne in mind. 
 
 3 Cf. Evidence, Hayward, 648 ; Mackay, 1211 ; Roberts, 1620, &c. ; 
 Andrews, 2350, and others. 
 
 4 Acworth, 463 ; Rev. B. Lambert, 500, &c. 
 
 5 Bramly, 347, &c. ; Westbrook, 2015, and others. 
 
 6 Report (printed May 31, 1804), p. 10. 
 
 7 This was before the passing of the Act 34 & 35 Viet., c. 108, s. 8, by which 
 the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund was created. 
 
 8 Hayward, 062.
 
 funds, who have little or no personal knowledge of the work of relief or 
 the conditions under which it can be administered with good results. 
 4 We had rather a sentimental Committee, who were anxious to "grant as 
 much as possible,' says one working man. ' That was the great difficulty 
 to contend against. It was thought the public was clamouring for the 
 money to be promptly divided.' 1 Another witness tells how v men who 
 were able-bodied and would not work ' are able to live somehow on the 
 public ' ; 2 and ' some of the artisans and labourers preferred to go about 
 with a box, drum, and banner, and get 5s. a day by begging, instead of the 
 2s. 6d. a day which they might have earned.' 3 
 
 Besides this eager clamour for hasty almsgiving and the lack of know- Local responsi- 
 ledge combined with strong opinions, there is a manifest neglect of local bilities. 
 duties in many districts. One witness, speaking of a part of South 
 London, allows that 'practically, so far as' they have power to devote their 
 leisure and provide skilful charity, ' the rich and well-to-do who make their 
 money in the district do not make use of it.' 4 He says also, ' a great many 
 men are temporarily dismissed on account of slackness of work. I know 
 a man well who is now out of work, and who had for many years been 
 continuously employed. He had been employed at the docks on a superior 
 class of work. Together with a mate he was discharged in January, the 
 men being told that their services would not be wanted till July. 
 Immediately afterwards the employer subscribed fifty guineas to the fund 
 for the unemployed. ' r ' Another witness, an employer, referring to the 
 Guardians, says of another district : ' The Poor Law administration is too 
 much in the hands of the shopkeepers, and working men know very little 
 about it. I don't know whether the vestryman or the guardian is looked 
 upon with the greater contempt.' 6 
 
 (2) NEED OF TRAINING IN ALMSGIVING. 
 
 Side by side with this unfortunate and most injurious neglect of local 
 duty and want of confidence in local authorities must be placed the 
 fact that only so far as people are trained to meet ordinary distress, 
 and understand its causes, can they cope with an emergency. This is the 
 more apparent if it is allowed that the problem is to relieve without 
 lowering the status and moral condition of the recipient. The people 
 ' want energy and increase of self-respect,' and relief given upon decisions 
 arrived at ' very fast indeed ' ' rather decreased it,' says one witness. 7 
 Another allows that in a district adjacent to a wealthy suburb their jj ore an( j 
 members were not sufficient to make proper inquiries. They could, he better workers 
 thought, ' eliminate the cases' that were ' obviously drunken and dissipated,' wantcd - 
 but they could not get trained visitors, and could not therefore attempt ' to 
 work to a higher standard.' 8 The administration ' gradually improved,' 
 says another, ' till at last (the fund) was fairly well "administered, because 
 the Committee by that time had acquired some experience of that kind 
 of work.' 9 . . . ' A large number of persons entirely unaccustomed 
 to dealing with distress were called together, and forced to administer 
 a large sum of money on a large scheme. If the other plan had been 
 adopted of using existing associations you would have had people of 
 some experience.' 'Yes,' 10 says another, 'we were all educated by our 
 experience.' ' The work of relief that has to be undertaken on an 
 emergency should be committed as far as possible,' writes the Fulham Sub- 
 
 1 Andrews, Q. 2360. 
 Jack, Q. 1035. 
 
 3 Jack, 980, 985 ; Bramly, 391 ; Acworth, 473. 
 
 4 Gardiner, 923, 924. 
 
 5 Gardiner, 918 ; c/. Andrews, 2363, &c. '* 
 
 6 Roberts, 1696. 
 
 7 Gee, 1411. 
 
 8 Acworth, 484, 497, 498. 
 Gardiner, 824, 868. 
 
 10 Marchant, 1266.
 
 VI 
 
 View of 
 Fulham Sub- 
 Committee of 
 the Mansion 
 House Fund. 
 
 Differences in 
 population. 
 
 Differences in 
 resources. 
 
 Committee of the Mansion House Fund, ' to persons who have had 
 experience in dealing with the poor, and are known to have paid 
 attention to the difficult problems involved. The ordinary volunteer 
 who engages for the first time in work of this description is often 
 full of zeal and animated by the best intentions ; but he is as often 
 ignorant of the scope and purpose of the Poor Law, and therefore 
 blind to the importance of keeping its tasks and those of charity dis- 
 tinct. He thinks that if a man drinks, or squanders his earnings in some 
 form of folly or vice, there is at once a sufficient reason for assisting his 
 wife and children, never having grasped the truth that the Poor Law is 
 the only agency that can deal satisfactorily with such cases. His aim is to 
 give ; that is what he has come to do, and he Avill not stay to discriminate, 
 much less to deny.' 
 
 (3) DIFFERENT CONDITIONS OF DIFFERENT PARTS OF LONDON. 
 
 Another point, frequently overlooked, is the diversity of local conditions 
 in different parts of London. The character of the population differs ; the 
 resources of the districts are different ; and the administration of the Poor 
 Law is different. Any proposals for the relief of the poor must, therefore, 
 be adjusted to local requirements and must not enfeeble local efforts. 
 
 ' The population differs.' At St. George-in-the-East the applicants with 
 whom the almoners had to deal were ' a small number of the lower class of 
 artisans,' but chiefly ' the dock-labouring class, that is, men who have no con- 
 stant employment, but gain a precarious living in the neighbourhood of the 
 river. This consists of " broken " men, who, by their misfortunes or their 
 vices, have fallen out of regular work, but to a large extent of those who 
 have been born within the demoralising influence of the intermittent and 
 irregular employment given by the Dock Companies, and who have never 
 been able to rise above their circumstances.' 1 
 
 Contrast with this Battersea. That ' district is inhabited by a better 
 class. It has not the real ragged pauper. It has no slums whatever.' 2 
 And the contrast between Lewisham and Marylebone and St. Giles's is 
 equally great. 3 
 
 'The resources of the districts are different.' At Marylebone the Fund 
 was ' only another agency added to the numerous relief agencies in the 
 district'; ' there was nothing to justify such help being offered to Mary- 
 lebone.' 4 And at Lewisham there was no reason why all necessary relief 
 should not have been raised locally. 5 On the other hand, at Camberwell, 
 Mr. Acworth says, ' I dont know of any local charity, except the Charity 
 Organisation Society, that there would be any use going to.' ' If Cam- 
 berwell had raised money, it would not have raised 100. One side of 
 Denmark Hill is almost entirely poor, and the other almost entirely rich ; 
 and they do not recognise any responsibility. London took up a responsi- 
 bility which ought to have been discharged locally,' but 'it is fair to- 
 remember that the population of Camberwell don't work for the population 
 of Camberwell any more than they work for the population of Grosvenor 
 Square ; it is simply a sleeping-place for workers elsewhere.' 6 Here is a 
 recognition of the differences with a reason for combination within certain 
 limits. Yet it must be remembered that what is termed a ' sleeping-place ' 
 
 1 Report of the St. George-in-the-East and Wapping Committee of th& 
 Mansion House Fund, p. 7. 
 
 2 Heale, 1314, &c. 
 
 Cf. Fletcher, 69 ; Valpy, 206, 230 ; Bramly, 316. 
 
 4 Fletcher, 133, 199. 
 
 5 Bramly, 359, 360 ; Legge, 1160. 
 
 6 Acworth, 455, 477.
 
 Vll 
 
 is, after all, the home and the only home of that part of the population of 
 Camberwell to which reference is here made. 
 
 ' The administration of the Poor Law is different.' To take one point Diifermces in 
 of importance in connection with exceptional distress. Lewisham. and St. 1>001 ' Law - 
 Saviour's have a labour-yard ; Kensington and St. George-in- the- East have 
 none. 
 
 From these references it will be seen (1) that the success of any scheme General 
 must largely depend on the education of ' the charitable world ' in the dis- conclusions, 
 tribution of relief. There is evidence of an advance in public opinion, if 
 1885-86 be compared with 1860-61. It was (e.g.] anew thing last year, that 
 at a time of distress relief money should be used to pay up club arrears. (2) 
 The administration of relief will be more or less effectual, according as local 
 duties are honourably performed by those who have local responsibilities. 
 (3) Any scheme of relief should tend to keep alive and stimulate local 
 effort ; and it should admit of easy modification according to variations in 
 the administration of the Poor Law, and differences in the character of the 
 population. (4) On the number of persons who have previously acquired 
 knowledge and experience in almsgiving will depend the failure or success 
 of measures adopted on an emergency. (5) This will become more evident 
 as the desire to give relief is superseded by a desire to prevent chronic 
 distress and to raise the condition of the people. 
 
 (4) INFORMATION AS TO THE EXISTENCE OR NATURE OF DISTRESS. 
 
 A fourth preliminary question is that of obtaining accurate information 
 in regard to distress. In a population such as that in London, there is 
 always a tendency to cry ' Wolf, wolf.' ' The idle, disorderly, and hereditary 
 pauper class ' are only too ready to raise the cry. They 'join and make vise 
 of numbers of hard-working men for their own benefit, by raising a clamour 
 and exaggerating the distress, in order the more easily to impose on the 
 public, and obtain indiscriminate relief.' 1 The rich, who give without know- 
 ledge or on impulse, or because others do, and the almsgivers, to whom the 
 whole problem of charity reduces itself to ' Give, give,' are quick to increase 
 the alarm. 2 Those who trade on charity are always on the alert to 'raise 
 the wind ' for their own purposes, and even those interested in bond fide 
 societies are tempted to appeal for funds on the strength of the outcry. 
 
 The Committee have received much written and verbal evidence respect- 
 ing the best means of ascertaining the facts in regard to alleged destitu- 
 tion. The Poor Law returns are, it would seem, a surer test of wide- 
 spread distress than is usually allowed. 3 But it is likely that, as the 
 Poor Law is better administered, and as the people are better educated and 
 induced to become more thrifty, there will be a greater reluctance to apply 
 for Poor Law relief. More care has accordingly to be taken to ascertain 
 the actual facts. The inquiries should be made early in the winter, as 
 privately as possible, in order to prevent ungrounded apprehensions and 
 panic ; 4 and the tests should be the recognised duty of some public body. 
 The return entitled 'Pauperism and Distress' (March, 1886) shows that 
 the Local Government Board might, with very great advantage to the 
 community, undertake this office, and obtain information, at least, from 
 
 1 Letter of the Master of the Wolverhampton Workhouse. Thirteenth 
 Report of the Local Government Board, 1861, p. 39. 
 
 ' Those who spoke most strongly as to the unusual distress/ writes a cor- 
 respondent from a South London District, ' were those who had least experience 
 among the poor.' 
 
 3 Gardiner, 906. Cf. Local Government Board Report, 1860-61, p. 1-5 ; 
 and subsequently in the Cotton Famine. 
 
 4 Cf. Gardiner, 905, 915 ; Roberts, 1686 ; Dew, 2086 ; Mackay, 1194 ; 
 Heale, 1,366.
 
 Vlll 
 
 various official sources and Government Departments. Apart from this, 
 the Committee would suggest that the work should devolve on the Pro- 
 visional Committee, which should, in their opinion, be established. 
 
 (5) THE ' CHRONIC ' OR ' PERMANENT ' POOR. 
 
 The object of the administrators of relief on an emergency should be to 
 reach those who are in distress owing to exceptional causes, and to pass by 
 those who receive relief habitually and are no worse off than usual. This 
 is a chief difficulty. In spite of rules to the contrary, the latter generally 
 receive the lion's share. 
 
 ' There are two classes of workmen,' says Canon Legge, ' one regular and 
 thrifty, and the other irregular, which last falls back persistently on to 
 indiscriminate charity.' ' The bulk of the distress is chronic, always 
 coming after the summer and lasting for the winter, year after year.' 2 ' I 
 must admit,' says Mr. Fletcher, 3 speaking of Marylebone, ' that I violated 
 the rule that no part of the funds should be used for the relief of chronic 
 distress, otherwise I should not have got rid of much of the money. 
 Mr. M. Stephany, speaking of the work of the Jewish Board of Guardians, 
 says, ' Practically we exclude no class of case ; out-of-work cases come back 
 to us every three or four weeks. They recur every winter.' 4 ' All these 
 people,' Mr. Mackay says of St. George-in-the-East, 'are very poor 
 people. It is a puzzle how they live. I suppose they never earn more 
 than 10*. a week. You say they must of necessity be in distress, and 
 you give them something ; but they are not worse off than usual.' 5 ' My 
 experience was,' says Mr. Roberts, 6 ' that the tendency of the Fund was to 
 drift to the relief of the permanent poor. Do what we could to avoid it, 
 we could not help its drifting. And I think it was to some extent owing 
 to the fact that the Committee were composed to a large extent of clergymen 
 and district visitors ; and the charity went to their own particular set ; it 
 went to the same set as are relieved by churches and chapels. I believe that 
 many of the clergy honestly tried their best to prevent this, but, as the 
 matter was in their hands, these people came. As a rule the mechanic does 
 not go to church or chapel.' ' The better men ' ' would not go to a Society 
 which was managed by clergy.' 7 ' They would think themselves bound to 
 return the compliment by going to church or chapel.' 8 
 
 The chronic poor are ready to apply to anyone who will help them, 
 clergy and ministers, local charities, or, if they can obtain out-relief, to the 
 Poor Law. If they are out of work and do not. receive their usual relief 
 from these sources, they may, if befriended, be induced to look forward to 
 the future and make some provision for themselves. 9 But when a large dis- 
 tribution of relief is made, the personal care which might help them to do this 
 is not forthcoming. Large numbers have to be attended to. The relief 
 must be given by test or on some principle, and that quickly. And the 
 staff available for the purpose is, more or less, insufficient. If justice is to 
 be done to the better class for those for whom the funds are intended the 
 bulk of the ' ablebodied ' ' permanent ' poor must be excluded, and relief 
 should only be given to them by the Guardians in the labour-yard. It will 
 greatly depend on the administration whether they are still further 
 pauperised (already they are paupers in all but the name), or taught a 
 lesson in self-respect. Mere relief by itself cannot avail. Some chronic 
 distress is due to low Avages, but to supplement a low wage is to perpetuate 
 it. 
 
 1 See p. xviii. 6 1610. 
 
 8 Legge, 1145, 1134. 7 Dove, 1629. Moss, 2471. 
 
 3 Fletcher, 62, 63. 8 Roberts, 1630, 1681. 
 
 4 2219, 2221, &c. See case of a man living on 20s. a week : 
 
 5 Mackay, 1216. Gardiner, 888. Cf. Avis, 1551.
 
 IX 
 
 (6) THE INDEPENDENT ARTISAN AND LABOURER. 
 
 There is, of course, every grade of self-reliance and self-respect ; but the 
 position of the independent labourer is in the main a marked contrast to 
 that of the chronic poor, and it was generally acknowledged that the distress 
 last winter had, at least in some parts of London, reached the better class. 1 
 
 ' The difficulty in that matter,' says an employer of labour, ' is to 
 get one of what we call our good artisans to degrade himself to come and 
 receive charity. I really don't believe that up in our neighbourhood 
 (Islington), in the number that came for relief, there was one thoroughly 
 sterling, honest, straightforward man in the whole lot, judging from exami- 
 nation. Perhaps I am overstating the case ; but I could not put my finger 
 upon one.' 2 ' Very few ' of the independent artisans ' put themselves on ' the 
 Fund, says a working man. ' If I had not pressed them they would not 
 have gone on the Fund. I am afraid [a fund like this] would lower him. 
 That is what I feel myself. I suppose it is human nature.' 3 Another 
 witness says, ' The great bulk of the cases that came at first were parish 
 cases, while the artisans would not come near us. But as time went on, and 
 as the application of the rules became more rigorous and more careful, a 
 better class of men did come, until at last the good cases were, I should 
 say, in a decided majority over the Poor Law cases.' 4 
 
 To reach men of this stamp, and yet to do no injury, charity, it is 
 evident, must do its work most carefully. 
 
 The social status of these men has improved, with an improvement 
 which has reached also to those of a lower grade than themselves. 
 
 ' I don't know that [the men] are earning more wages,' says Mr. Vallance, 
 comparing Whitechapel in 1870 with what it is now ; ' but the conditions of 
 their life have improved during the last sixteen years.' ' The public-house 
 trade has gone down very much ; ' there is more sobriety and more thrift, and 
 ' workers among the poor say that rents are paid with great regularity.' 5 
 Mr. Dove says ' the artisan is now far more respectable. Every man in 
 our shop is rather a gentleman to what he was thirty years ago. It was the 
 rule to find these men keeping Saint Monday and Saint Tuesday too. 
 Such a thing never occurs now, and they go out with their black clothes. 
 They have given up their fustian and corduroy.' 6 
 
 On the other hand, there is evidence of a fall in the wages in some 
 trades, and of a diminution in the amount distributed in wages. 
 
 On the former point the evidence of Mr. Nathan Moss in regard to 
 cabinet-making is to the effect that men accustomed only to better-class 
 work are compelled to do inferior work, and thus earn less wages than men 
 engaged all their life on inferior goods, and therefore more skilful in 
 making them. ' People are going in for the cheapest thing they can get.' 
 ' If work different to the ordinary kind is given to nine-tenths of the men, 
 they can't or won't do it.' 7 
 
 On the latter point, Mr. Dove, speaking of his firm in the building trade, 
 says, ' About ten years ago we were paying .1,500 a week for wages : this 
 ]ast winter we only paid 300 ' ; and Mr. Roberts, ' The amount of our 
 wages was two-thirds less than three years ago.' 8 And, says the former, 
 arguing in favour of helping men by opening public works, ' we have 
 always found, as to the artisan, that, if he happens to be out of work for 
 
 1 Return, Pauperism and Distress (March 8, 1886): pp. 137, 140, 144. Cf. 
 also Dew, 2069, 2077 ; Powell, 2256, 2253 ; Westbrook, 1996, 2002 ; Collie, 
 1875. 
 
 2 Dove, 1646. Dove, 1671 ; Roberts, 1672, 1673. 
 
 3 Westbrook, 1961, 1962. 7 Moss, 2396, &c., 2464,2455. 
 
 4 Gardiner, 825 ; Valpy, 212. 8 Dove, 1585, 1590 ; cf. Bramly, 379. 
 
 5 690 and 726; Avis, 1532, 1533.
 
 three months, he is never the same man again. He becomes demoralised. 
 Even supposing we administered a fund like this [the Mansion House Fund] 
 as well as possible, the man would never be the man he was before,' 
 
 For these men, then, what courses are possible ? For their temporary 
 assistance, relief most carefully distributed or public works under many 
 safeguards; 1 and for their permanent aid, emigration or migration: a 
 revival of trade, or the adoption of some new handicraft. From emi- 
 gration or migration there is, from a working man's point of view, little 
 to be hoped at present. 2 Of a revival of trade there is a doubtful expecta- 
 tion. In the adoption of new handicrafts, and in such an education as 
 would equip men with a larger stock of faculties available for a time of 
 need, there is more hope. 3 And in those trades which are in their nature 
 periodical, or in which employment is irregular, the only remedy would seem 
 to be that the workman, should learn to adapt himself to the changes and 
 be able to turn his hand to more crafts than one. To promote this would 
 seem to be the first duty of charity, rightly understood. 
 
 But these are remedies which can only be slowly applied, and which act 
 gradually. In the main, from the point of view of relief, the best safe- 
 guard of these men is their thrift, and, apart from other help, the best aid 
 is to keep them in their clubs by paying up arrears or to help them to join 
 clubs. No effort should be spared to save them from falling into the 
 * chronic' class; and if the ordinary alms- seekei's and loafers are kept at 
 bay, it is quite possible to do this. In the North of England, in 1884-85, 
 many of the unemployed, who ' would otherwise have had to be relieved 
 by payments from the poor-rates, were supported by the various trade 
 societies.' 4 And the Secretary of the London Society of Compositors writes, 
 'that between 1876 and 1885 that Society distributed 41,556. 16,*. Id. 
 to the unemployed, and 1,748. 18s. for emigration. ... If every work- 
 man,' he says, 'in his own particular trade, whether skilled or unskilled, 
 belonged to his trade society,' . . '. 'he would be able " to tide over " periods 
 of slackness without extraneous assistance, though doubtless in many cases 
 sore pressed.' 5 It is in support of such a view as this that Mr. Powell,' 1 
 as a working man, urges the us3 of some kind of thrift test at a time of 
 exceptional distress. ' I should not,' he says, ' make any proposal to assist 
 a man unless he had tried to assist himse.f anything if he could only 
 show me an old bank-book. I should let those who had not made any 
 provision go to the Poor Law. It seems formed to meet their case. But I 
 would not do it if he had made the smallest provision for himself. A man 
 must expect to get old ; he must provide for that by the superannuation 
 fund. Every man can do something for himself.' 
 
 III. AGENCIES FOR RELIEF. 
 (1) THE POOR LAW; ITS FUNCTIONS GENERALLY. 
 
 As is the normal administration of charitable relief, so will its admi- 
 nistration be at a time of exceptional distress. And the same may be said 
 of the Poor Law. The function of Charity should b3 to prevent desti- 
 tution : that of the Poor Law to relieve it. Between the two there must 
 
 1 Sgo Y)GiO\V XIV 
 
 Powell, 2255, 2270, 2271 ; but c/. Dew, 2094 ; Westbrook, 2007, etc., 1940. 
 
 3 Powell, 2297, &c. ; Westbrook, 200 ( ,, &c. ; Dove, 1091 ; Legge, 1149- 
 1158 ; Roberts, 1GG2, 1090. 
 
 4 Fourteenth Annual Report of the Local Government Board, p. xxxvi ; 
 cf. Dew, 2077 ; Gardiner, 883-888. 
 
 5 Letter to the President of the Local Government Board, March 2, 188G, 
 p. 142 in Return : Pauperism and Distress. 
 
 * 2257, 2258, 2200, 2284.
 
 XI 
 
 be co-operation. This would imply that volunteers have informed them- 
 selves of the functions of the Poor Law, and that the Guardians have come 
 to some understanding with them as to the ways in which they, as 
 Guardians, can turn charitable devotion and liberality to the best account 
 for the poor. But at present the charitable, as a rule, are ignorant of the 
 principles and provisions of the Poor Law, and are inclined to ignore it as 
 hard, arbitrary, and official. The Guardians, in turn, have a not unnatural 
 distrust of the administrators of charitable funds, who seem to them 
 sentimental, wayward, and irresponsible. The consequence is that many 
 societies and individuals are habitually doing what the Poor Law should 
 do, and neglecting to do what the Poor Law cannot do. They distribute 
 a kind of outdoor relief without rule and without method, productive of 
 evils similar to those of outdoor relief under the old Poor Law a feeling 
 of dependence among the poor and a lively expectation of future largess. 1 
 On the other hand, the Poor Law Guardians do not feel the need of, nor, as 
 individuals, encourage, any combination of charitable workers with whom 
 they may co-operate to help those whom ' it is undesirable to treat as 
 subjects for pauper relief.' 
 
 So great (from the point of view of the Poor Law) are the evils of want Co-operation 
 of co-operation that the Clerk to the Manchester Board of Guardians writes PQ^LR 
 that ' where the distress is not very severe, or where there is no efficient Charity, 
 organisation in existence for the proper distribution of public charity, the 
 Guardians would do well to discourage the formation of a fund. But if a 
 fund is formed there should be interchange of information, and ' the Relief 
 Committee should be strongly urged not to give assistance to anyone in 
 receipt of relief from the Guardians, and the Guardians' allowance should 
 be at once withdrawn in every case in which this recommendation, is dis- 
 regarded.' 2 
 
 Mr. Yallance's evidence illustrates the plan of co-operation at work in 
 some Unions in London. The Committee draw particular attention to this, 
 as without some such system it is hopeless to expect that charitable funds 
 collected on an emergency will be well administered. 
 
 ' There is,' says Mr. Vallance, ' a perfect understanding between the 
 Guardians and the Charity Organisation Society in Whitechapel. The 
 Guardians have never adopted a "no outdoor relief" policy; but have 
 merely endeavoured to stem the tide of hereditary pauperism by guarding 
 against permanency in Poor Law relief. They have, however, not found it 
 necessary to provide for even the temporary necessities of deserving cases, 
 by reason of the representatives of the Charity Organisation Society on the 
 Board spontaneously undertaking to prevent the first step in pauperism.* 
 The poor understand a uniform administration and the application of 
 strict rules, especially when allied with efforts to lift them out of their 
 pauperism.' 4 ' The Poor Law Guardians would not have been able to carry 
 on their work successfully without the sympathy of those outside. When 
 
 1 See above, re Chronic poor. Gardiner. 890, &c. ; Vallance, 794 ; Jack, 
 101.2; Dew, 2057; Mr. W. H. Gurney Salter (Lambeth) writes to the Com- 
 mittee : ' If the distress is no greater next winter, I think such a distribution 
 of alms should not be repeated. Its effect in discouraging providence would 
 be greater the second winter, and after that the poor would be entitled to 
 expect it always in fact, a second Poor Law system would be established side 
 by side with the first.' The mischief done by want of co-operation between 
 Charity and the Poor Law at a time of distress is no new story. Cf. Report 
 by Mr. Andrew Doyle, p. 36 ; Xlllth Annual Report of the Local Government 
 Board. 
 
 2 ' Poor Relief during Depression of Trade in the Winter of 1878-9, by Mr. 
 Macdonald. Paper read at a Poor Law Conference at Southport, October. 1879. 
 
 3 683. 4 717.
 
 Xll 
 
 it was found that the ultimate object of the Guardians was to draw a dis- 
 tinction between pauper relief and charitable assistance, definiteness of aim 
 was given both to Poor Law administration and voluntary workers, whilst 
 co-operation between the two agencies was in no small measure promoted. 
 The diminution that has taken place in Whitechapel pauperism is largely 
 attributable to the earnest efforts of voluntary workers to redeem the poor 
 from pauperism and dependence.' 1 This system he thought applicable to 
 other districts, e.g., to one which is in many respects very different, 
 St. James's, Soho, 2 and he felt assured that in Whitechapel with this co-oper- 
 ation the distress of last winter could have been met by existing agencies. 3 
 
 Poor Law Regulations to meet a Tims, of Distress* 
 The Out-relief Regulation Order requires ' That every able-bodied male 
 person, if relieved out of the workhouse, shall be set to work by the Guardians, 
 and be kept employed under their direction and superintendence, so long as 
 he continues to receive relief.' It is further provided that ' one half of the 
 relief shall be given in articles of food or fuel, or in other articles of absolute 
 necessity.' The Guardians have authority to take special measures in ' cases 
 of a very exceptional character,' subject to report to the Local Government 
 Board. The Poor Law relief available for the able-bodied consists, ac- 
 cordingly, of relief in the workhouse, and relief by means of work, generally in 
 the labour- yard. 
 
 The Workhouse. 
 
 To avoid ' the rush ' made ' upon relieving officers ' ' by the improvident 
 poor ' ' when it becomes known that the workhouse is full,' Poor Law ad- 
 minstrators advocate a reserve of workhouse accommodation. 5 That may 
 be considered an official view of the question. With it may be compared 
 the opinions expressed by the witnesses. A Wandsworth Guardian 
 said, ' The very woi*st men, if able-bodied, won't apply to the work- 
 house.' 6 ' The [' rather undeserving people '] won't accept it,' said a paid 
 visitor of long experience. ' One man [last winter] said he would rather 
 starve ; and I said, ' Well, you will have to starve.' 
 
 ' Was that case relieved 1 ' is the next question to the witness ? ' No, 
 sir ; we would not relieve him.' ' And he did not lie down and starve ? ' 
 ' No, he is alive now.' ' When that sort of talk goes on, you are not so 
 frightened as with a quiet person V ' No : we know how to deal with them 
 better.' 7 This ' rather undeserving ' class, then, may, at a time of exceptional 
 distress, be safely left to the Poor Law. When, however, there is a wife 
 and family, it is often hard ' to break up the home.' ' It would be as well,' 
 one working man allows, ' that the drinking man should go to the work- 
 house ; but the difficulty is with his wife and children.' 8 To meet this 
 difficulty in ' no-work cases ' at Whitechapel, ' the Guardians do not require 
 the wife and family to enter the workhouse ; but, conditionally upon the 
 man doing so, voluntary charity undertakes to keep the home together. 9 
 To this proposal another working man said, ' I think that would have been 
 a fair test. I don't like the idea of breaking up the home.' 10 
 
 The conclusions which the Committee would draw from this evidence and 
 
 1 782. 2 792. 3 680. 
 
 4 Return : Pauperism and Distress (March, 1886). 
 
 5 Poor Relief during Depression of Trade,' (1878-9) p. 144 ; cf. p. 140, &c. 
 
 6 Heale, 1370, 1371 ; Bramly, 365. In the North in 1884-85, the work- 
 house test was usefully applied. Comparatively few accepted it : e.g., at 
 Sunderland, 39 out of 104. See Fourteenth Annual Report of the Local 
 Government Board. 
 
 7 Mrs. Avis, 1517, 1504, 1505. 
 
 8 Dew, 2068, 2078, 2079. 
 
 9 Vallance,683. 
 
 10 Andrews, 2357, 2358.
 
 Xlll 
 
 other opinions received by them is, that it is right that the ' house ' should be 
 offered in the case of the drunkard and the absolutely thriftless ; but that, 
 where there is a decent home, the plan adopted in Whitechapel should be 
 put in force. 
 
 The Labour-Yard. 
 
 The test of the labour-yard has ' a deterrent effect ' ' when properly 
 carried out.' But ' the more indolent of the men are content to bear ' with 
 it ' rather than exert themselves to obtain employment involving hard work 
 and longer hours.' The labour-yard ' after a time demoralises ' him. And 
 ' the only cure is the offer of an order for the workhouse, which, as expe- 
 rience shows, is rarely accepted. 1 
 
 This is the view of the Poor Law administrator. With it again the 
 evidence taken by the Committee may be compared. 
 
 ' Stone -breaking is a degrading thing,' says an employer of labour, 
 ' because it is a sort of thing you put the lowest of the low to do. It is 
 like picking oakum. It is in a degree useful ; but it is infinitesimal in its 
 use. I am not speaking about loafers. Do what you like with those. 
 Make it as abhorrent as possible to those. I am speaking of carpenters 
 and joiners.' 2 ' It would lower them,' says a working man. They would 
 feel it so.' 3 ' But,' he said afterwards, ' I am thinking myself with those 
 dock labourers, if we had had a labour test [in the labour-yard] with them, 
 many of them would have shirked it.' 
 
 For the good management, also, of any public works, a division between 
 men sent to the labour-yard and men employed on the works is equally 
 desirable, unless, as at Wandsworth last winter, the works are opened by 
 the Guardians. 4 
 
 The Committee conclude that if labour-yards are opened by the 
 Guardians the administrators of any fund should refer to them all able- 
 bodied applicants of the ordinary labouring class. 5 
 
 1 'Poor Relief during Depression of Trade,' 1878-9, p. 141. 
 
 2 Dove, 1659-61. 
 
 3 Westbrook, 1931, 2031, 2032 ; cf. Andrews, 2355 ; Heale, 1374 ; West- 
 brook, 1999, 2009 ; cf. Dove, 1634. 
 
 4 Collie, 1852, 1853, 1848 ; Wilkinson, 1734, 1738 ; Jack, 993, 984, 985. 
 
 5 The following may be quoted as a good scale of labour-yard relief. It is 
 that adopted by the Lewisham Board of Guardians : 
 
 ' LABOUR- YARD SCALE OF RELIEF. 
 
 ' The Guardians employ able-bodied and partially able-bodied males, during 
 the whole time they are upon relief, requiring a fixed task of work to be 
 performed by them, and when such task is duly performed, relief is granted 
 on the following scale, which is limited to five days only per week ; but it 
 will be discretionary with the Board to alter the character and quality of the 
 relief if, in their judgment, they consider it necessary or expedient to do so. 
 
 Total Value of a Week's p,..-,, 
 Relief (5 days) ^ lass< 
 
 *. rf. 
 
 4 4 A 5 pence, 21b. bread, ^lb. meat, 2d. grocery per diem 
 
 single man. 
 55 B 6 pence, 21b. bread, Jib. meat, 2d. grocery per diem 
 
 man and wife. 
 63 c 6 pence, 41b. bread, |lb. meat, 2d. grocery per diem 
 
 man, wife, and child. 
 71 08 pence, 41b. bread, lb. meat, 2d, grocery per diem 
 
 man, wife, and 2 children. 
 8 11J E 10 pence, 4lb. bread, |lb. meat, 3d. grocery per diem 
 
 man, wife, and 3 children. 
 
 10 5 F 10 pence, 6lb. bread, lib. meat, 3d. grocery per diem 
 
 man, wife, and 4 children. 
 
 11 8 G 13 pence, 61b. bread, lib. meat, 3d. grocery per diem 
 
 man, wife, and 5 children. 
 This scale applies to persons WHOLLY destitute.'
 
 XIV 
 
 Employment 
 provided at 
 YVhitechaptl. 
 
 Employment 
 provided at 
 Wandsworth. 
 
 Conclusions 
 
 regarding the 
 provision of 
 employment. 
 
 (2) RELIEF BY EMPLOYMENT. 
 
 Where there is no labour-yard, various expedients have to be adopted. 1 
 At Whitechapel, last winter, 2 street-sweeping wns provided for the ordinary 
 outdoor labourers, by arrangement with the District Board of Works. 
 ' This test was a sore trial' to many of the men ; ' the Fund,' they said, ' is 
 a charity, and we are entitled to it without working.' ' The majority did 
 not persist in their application.' 
 
 For the employment of a higher class of labourers and men in delicate 
 health, the Guardians gave a contract, which they had before given to a 
 West-End Association, for cleaning the windows of the infirmary, and 
 other work, such as whitewashing, &c., was provided by them. The men 
 so employed ' on the whole gave satisfaction.' 
 
 For others, again, e.g., tailors (19) and sempstresses (140), special work 
 was provided, with good results. 
 
 A word should be added regarding the plan adopted last winter by the 
 Wandsworth Guardians. They were at the time building their workhouse, 
 and determined ' to make the men dig out the sand and put in the founda- 
 tions, instead of opening a labour-yard.' 3 Under the instruction of the 
 gangers the skilled workmen, who were unused to spade work, soon 
 improved, and the weaker men, or those who had suffered from privation, 
 were put to light work for a week or so. The outlay was 1,402. 15s. 8rf. 
 the net loss about 29. The works were open for seven weeks. The 
 average number of men at work ranged from 234 in the first week to 89 
 in the last. The pay was 2s. Qd. a day for eight hours, slightly in excess 
 of what would have been earned by such a mixed body of men. The 
 several relieving officers took ' great pains in selecting deserving men for 
 the works.' The plan was altogether successful. 
 
 At Lewisham, Holloway, and in many suburban districts, road-making 
 could without difficulty be provided by the District Boards. 4 
 
 On various points of detail the conclusions of the Committee are as 
 follows : 
 
 1. The wage should not be a 'charity' wage. 'Men will only put the 
 amount of labour to it,' says one witness who had charge of some road- 
 making, 'you get for charity work' 'not worth 2d. an hour.' 5 The men 
 are inclined to ' loaf,' and the work costs four times as much as it would 
 if done on contract. 6 Last winter the Public Gardens Association paid 4d. 
 an hour for a day of five hours, with sometimes a dinner which cost 4cZ. in 
 addition ; but, in spite of the possible evils of attracting labourers from 
 other places, a larger payment per hour or a longer day's work would seem 
 to be better morally, and for the work's sake. 
 
 The best methods of payment appear to be either by contract or by 
 ' measured work,' or by scale. 
 
 If payment by contract is adopted, some special arrangement would 
 have to be made that the contractor should take unskilled men. 7 
 
 1 There are strong arguments against the establishment of labour- yards, 
 especially in very poor districts. Cf. Mackay, 1204 ; Gardiner, 854. 
 
 2 Report of the Whitechapel Union Committee of the Mansion House Fund. 
 Cf. Vallance, 683, 764, 722, 809 ; and Mackay, 1217. 
 
 3 Heale, 1303 ; and Report of Mr. Aldwinckle, the Architect to the Board, 
 June, 1886. 
 
 4 Jack, 945, &c. ; Dove, 1634 ; cf. Sir R. Rawlinson s Report in ' Distress 
 and Pauperism.' 
 
 5 Jack, 978, 979, &c. , 1022 ; Wilkinson, 1707, 1708, 1736. Cf. Collie, who 
 gives, on the whole, a good account of the men's work, 1778, 1779, 1819, 1852 ; 
 Powell, 2296. 
 
 Jack, 984 ; Wilkinson, 1736 ; Collie, 1820. 
 
 7 Jack, 1019; Eoterts, 1643 ; Dove, 1635 ; Acwortli, 437.
 
 XV 
 
 Of payment by 'measured work/ Sir R. Rawlinson wrote in 1866 : l 
 * While men were working as a labour test ' they had earned ' |ths of a 
 penny per day ; ' but within two days after the change was made from 
 4 test ' to ' measured work,' the same men earned wages exceeding 2s. a clay 
 the work being measured and priced on both occasions, at the same rate. 
 This plan is worthy of special consideration. 
 
 If payment be made by scale a minimum (say, kd. an hour for an 
 eight hours' day) would be settled, and, after proving the men, an addi- 
 tional Id. or \\d. or more would be given per hour, according to their 
 ability and industry. In 1864, at Stockport, ' unskilled men' earned 
 2s. 2d. a day ; at Wigan, ' factory operatives ' earned ' on an average 
 2s. 9d. a day, a few of the handiest men 3s. a day, and none less than 
 2s. Sd. a day for a full day's work.' 2 With regard to wages paid in the 
 winter of 1884-5 at the embankment works on the River Tees, the follow- 
 ing extracts of letters from the Clerks of the Middlesborough and Stockton 
 Guardians give particulars : 
 
 The former writes : ' The men employed by the contractor on the Embank- 
 ment works were paid in the first instance according to the work done, and 
 their earnings averaged from Gd. to 8d. per man per hour. The men worked in 
 companies of from 12 to 20, and the work of each company was measured every 
 evening roughly, and accurately at the end of each week, and the amount earned 
 divided equally. As the embankment got nearer the sea, and the work became 
 more difficult and uncertain, in consequence of the action of the water in rough 
 weather, the men grew dissatisfied, and ultimately the contractor agreed to pay 
 each man at the rate of sixpence per hour worked ; and this arrangement con- 
 tinued until the worked ceased. The men were nearly all ironworkers, and 
 totally unskilled in the sort of work they had to do, and, as an inducement to 
 the contractor to employ them, the Guardians of this Union provided the plant 
 they required.' 
 
 The Clerk to the Stockton Guardians writes : ' The men are employed at 
 the embankment works in digging mud and earth from the bed of the river at 
 low tide, and putting it into small trucks or " bogies," which they run along a 
 tramway to the embankment in course of formation at the mouth of the river. 
 The men are paid by the Contractor Gd. per cubic yard for the earth and mud 
 removed from the bed of the river and conveyed to the embankment, the 
 total weekly earnings of each man averaging from 12s. to 15s. The men are 
 sent to the works by the Relieving Officers, who select them from the applicants 
 for relief ; and when employe I at the Embankment works they are under the 
 entire control of the contractor.' 
 
 6d. an hour for a day of five hours was found satisfactory last year. 3 
 It is, however, doubtful whether there is any advantage in working the men 
 by shifts and for four or five hours only, in the hope of their using part of 
 the time to look for employment. It seems better that they should work 
 for the eight hours, and take 'a day off' to look for work. 4 
 
 2. To other than works done on contract, men should not be admitted Recommends 
 without sufficient inquiry, or a trustworthy recommendation. Unless this tions. 
 precaution is taken, it will be of little use to open such works. There 
 might as well be only a labour-yard. 5 
 
 1 Local Government Board Report, 18G4-65, p. 58 ; Jack, 1020. 
 
 3 flf. Collie, 1847-1849, 1821, 1822 ; Bramly, 310-312 ; Heale, 1303 ; 
 L.G.B. Report, 1864-G5, p. 45. The wage paid at Wandsworth is stated 
 above. At Lewisham 2s. Gd. was paid for a day of 7i hours at road-making. 
 At Chelsea, for wood-paving and the labour connected with it, men had 
 according to their ability, industry, and the kind of work to which they were 
 set, 4rf., 5d., and 9d. an hour. 
 
 3 Cf. Wilkinson, 1752 ; Collie, 1820-21. 
 
 4 Cf. Collie, 1818, and Mr. Aldwinckle's Report. Cf. Powell, 2296. 'This 
 winter we have got very much less work done than the winter before, when we 
 worked eight hours,' Wilkinson, 1711. 
 
 5 Cf. Dr Longstaff, 1754; Collie, 1839, 1768 ; Vallance, 683; Jack, 1027, 970. 
 
 B
 
 XVI 
 
 Supervision. 3. The supervision must be strict. J The employment may be an oppor- 
 
 tunity of improving the character and physique of the men, and even 
 teaching them a new trade. There should be a division and subdivision 
 of the works. The men should be employed in small gangs, and those 
 unaccustomed to rough labour mixed with the more skilled workmen. 2 
 And the manager must have the power of summary dismissal, and receive 
 the support of his Committee in a reasonable use of the power. 3 
 
 Wages in kind. 4. As a rule it is not well to give part of the wage in kind e.g., in a 
 meal. In this and other respects the position of employment by contract 
 should be assumed as far as possible. Many of those who want such help 
 will be labour-yard men. If it is required by others, it is better that it 
 should be given independently by a Relief Committee. 4 
 
 Kind of work. 5. Though it requires some time to habituate men to the use of the 
 
 spade and shovel, and the value of their work may be at first small, it is 
 clear that earth-work is suitable practically for all classes. If, e.g., road 
 making is provided, it will not be necessary to give any other kinds of 
 employment, except possibly in the case of weaker men, and of a few others 
 who belong to one or two trades for which such labour would iinfit them. 5 
 Suitable work may, by a little ingenuity, be found in all parts of London. 
 
 6. It is very important that works should not be opened unless there 
 is a clear necessity for them. They should not be allowed to become the 
 ordinary resource of the labouring poor. Many men will prefer to do 
 ' charity work,' especially if the supervision is not strict, ' at 4dL per 
 hour ' than ' contract work at Qd.' 6 It is nothing but harmful to supply 
 work for men who ' can hardly be got to work at all ;' who begin by 
 smoking, and will not come ' at 7 o'clock in the morning.' 7 
 
 (3) CHABITABLE RELIEF. 
 
 In regard to charitable relief, the Committee would draw attention to 
 one or two of the difficulties which a large fund tends to create. 
 
 There is likely to be an immediate rush of applicants to the Relief 
 Centres. 
 
 At St. Marylebone, at first, ' the scrimmage was so fearful sometimes 
 that I feared,' says one witness, ' that I should have to call in the police to 
 keep order.' 8 The news of it ' spread like wildfire,' says another. 9 ' The 
 applications came in by hundreds ' * We had such a crowd of applicants 
 that we were obliged to have, I think, four policemen to keep order.' 10 
 ' The Mansion House Fund might do a deal of good if properly managed, 
 but this one was a general scramble.' 11 
 
 Publicity and Advertisement stimulate applications. 
 
 ' If you go into the street with your pockets full of sovereigns,' says 
 Mr. Mackay, 'and have it advertised that you are going to give them away, 
 there is no end to the applications you will have to deal with. As an 
 
 1 Jack, 1019, 1031, 1014. 
 
 2 Local Government Board Report, 1864-65, p. 37 ; Collie, 1844. 
 
 3 Collie, 1777. 
 
 4 Cf. Local Government Board Report, 18G4-G5, p. 38 ; 1862-63, p. 40 ; 
 Wilkinson, 1729, 1730 ; Collie, 1813 ; Jack, 1024. 
 
 5 Vallance, 808 ; Heale, 1305, 1306, 1317 ; Jack, 1003 ; Dove, 1647, 1648 ; 
 Collie, 1790-1792. Cf. Powell, 2294. 
 
 6 Jack, 1002. 8 Brainly, 296. 
 
 7 Wilkinson, 1712, 1713. Mackay, 1184-1181. 
 
 8 Fletcher, 195. J1 Jack, 969
 
 XV11 
 
 instance in point, just round the corner, from our office in St. George's, 
 there is a little court, by no means the poorest in St. George's I believe 
 almost every single inhabitant applied. They are all very poor, but a great 
 many of them were no poorer than they always are. This shows how an 
 advertisement brought in applications.' 1 ' Large numbers of men were,' says 
 Mr. Vallance, ' making their way towards London in the hope of securing a 
 share of what was regarded as an inexhaustible fund.' In Hertfordshire 
 the master of a workhouse ' told me that he was overwhelmed with tramps 
 who were making their way to London.' ' Lodging-houses were over- 
 crowded ; whereas not long before some were scarcely paying at all, they 
 then got more applications for admission than they could accommodate.' 2 
 
 It is impossible to follow rules in such a tumult, however good the rules 
 may be. 
 
 ' No sufficient inquiry can be made,' says another witness. ' We had 
 to do it quickly, and we got the best information we could, and the only 
 ones we cut straight off were the drunkards.' 3 'I don't agree with a fund 
 administered as it was last time.' Says another : ' Pressure makes sufficient 
 inquiry impossible. The rush is too great. When you get 300 or 400 rush- 
 ing into a room every day, it is impossible. You could not do much in 
 two or three hours.' 4 Yet it is at such a time that inquiry is most necessary, 
 for there is every temptation to imposture.' ' I was so thoroughly deceived 
 by them,' says a working man, ' I could not believe them.' 5 ' There was 
 evidence of great imposture.' ' At the latter end, he was satisfied with the 
 administration of the Fund.' 
 
 Men are tempted away from honest labour. 
 
 ' The fund,' says Mr. Valpy, 'acted as a direct inducement to many 
 to remain idle.' 6 ' Expectations were raised that people would get as much 
 as 10 or 15 each.' 7 
 
 In their alarm people are inclined to give relief without any principle 
 or method. 
 
 1 All were in distress,' says Mr. Roberts, ' and that was considered 
 sufficient ground, whether they came within the Mansion House lines or 
 not.' If anyone made a remark, the answer was, ' The man was in 
 trouble.' 8 ' The Committee,' says another, 'would occasionally relieve the 
 family of a man who was a known drinker, and, when remonstrated with, 
 said they must think of the wife and family.' ' When some of these 
 gentlemen tackled an applicant, they did not know what questions to ask 
 
 1 Mackay, 1209 ; cf. Marchant, 1244, 1245. 
 
 2 Vallance, 671, 673. In any attempt to deal with distress in London, 
 this initial difficulty has to be considered. There has been a tendency in late 
 years to migrate into London, where the conditions of life are more cheer- 
 ful. There is a general impression that work is always to be found in the 
 metropolis. If we allow people to believe that, failing work, London is the 
 best place for the unemployed, because large funds are raised in any time of 
 exceptional distress, we shall increase this tendency to seek refuge in London 
 on the occasion of any trade dispute, or temporary pressure. It should be the 
 first endeavour of relief committees to induce applicants to return to the country. 
 Emigration, which is held out as a remedy, will, as a rule, only introduce the 
 successful applicant to a life of toil in country districts in the colonies, where 
 he will miss the companionship and the allurements which make London so 
 attractive. 
 
 s Bramly, 375. 6 Valpy, 206. 
 
 4 Heale, 1334, 1333, 1326. 7 Evidence 206, 263 ; cf. Dew, 2057, 2110, 
 
 6 Westbrook, 1955, 1892, 1958. 8 Roberts, 1620.
 
 XV111 
 
 General 
 conclusions as 
 to a Fund and 
 its desirability. 
 
 him. On the first day a man came in who was a thorough soaker, and had 
 sixteen shillings given him there and then. I protested. A member of Com- 
 mittee said, " Yes, no doubt he drank, but the weather was cold, and he 
 had a large family, and we must relieve the distress." '' 
 
 The conclusions that the Committee draw are : 
 
 1. That the creation of a Central Relief Fund should, if possible, 
 be avoided. 
 
 2. That whether there be such a fund or not, it is desirable that the 
 outlines of local and central administration, and all important details 
 should be pre-arranged. 
 
 3. That this work should be entrusted to some conjoint body, which 
 should be entitled to public confidence, and be held publicly responsible. 
 
 4. That this body should avoid all unnecessary publicity, both in 
 making its arrangements and in obtaining information. 
 
 5. That if the question of opening a fund arises, such a step should 
 not be taken without the fullest and most definite information as to the 
 existence and extent of the distress, nor without previous consultation 
 with the chief relief agencies in the Metropolis. 
 
 6. That if a fund be opened 
 
 (a) The money should be dispensed through local agencies only. 
 
 (b) No grants should be made to such agencies until the central 
 body is satisfied that their oi-ganisation is sufficiently complete, 
 and that money placed in their hands will be distributed 
 according to methods which it approves. 
 
 fc) That the rules adopted for the guidance of the local administra- 
 tors of the fund should be published in the general press, 
 advertised in the local papers, and made known to applicants 
 who come to the offices. 2 
 
 CHARITABLE AGENCIES NOW AVAILABLE. 
 
 It is the duty of your Committee to report ' on the best means of 
 dealing with exceptional distress.' They have therefore, in the above 
 conclusions, made special reference to the formation of a Central Relief 
 Fund which may, under conditions of comparatively rare occurrence, 
 become necessary. They feel, however, that no opinion can be formed on 
 such a question, except by those who have some knowledge of the very 
 large provision already made for the relief of the poor in London, and of 
 the existing agencies, which by combination and adjustment, and by 
 co-operation between class and class, might be expanded so as to withstand 
 the pressui-e even of times of unusual impoverishment. Tn 1885 the 
 relief dispensed to the poor in London by the Poor Law Authorities 
 amounted to 2,418,049. Of this 181,581 was given in out-door relief, 
 while the maintenance of indoor paupers, apart from the relief of pauper 
 children, the relief of the insane poor, and of vagrants, and apart from all 
 medical relief and all salaries and office expenses, was 235,450.' 
 
 The gifts of ' charity ' also are very large. How large, only those who 
 are in frequent contact with the poor are aware. There are pensioners of 
 local charities, and of charities administered by the City Companies ; there 
 are local philanthropise, and friendly aid societies ; there are the 
 parochial charities of the clergy, and the congregational gifts and 
 
 1 Gardiner, 858, 861 ; cf. as to good results of Fund, Acworth, 398, 413, 433. 
 
 2 Cf. the Report of the Mansion House Fund Committee for St. George 
 in-the-East. Mackay, 1208 ; Fletcher, 171 ; Avis, 1570 ; Marchant, 1244 ; 
 Heale, 1301.
 
 XIX 
 
 contributions of churches and chapels ; there are the collections made in 
 West-end churches for poor parishes in other parts of London, and the 
 sometimes considerable sums spent by individual donors in connection 
 with parishes in which they take an interest ; there is the help that artisans 
 give to artisans from the benevolent fund of the trade society or benefit 
 club, or by a ' friendly lead ' in the workshop ; there is also the casual relief, 
 which constantly passes from ' mate ' to ' mate,' and from one poor neighbour 
 to another ; for the charities of the poor might, in the spirit in which they 
 are bestowed, and in their relative value, often put to shame the charities of 
 the rich. 
 
 The following metropolitan societies (besides one or two others) are 
 general relief societies, and they and their members, assisted so far as 
 possible by additional helpers and colleagues, should, the Committee 
 consider, bear the brunt of any exceptional pressure. 
 
 The Metropolitan Visiting and Relief Association, 46 Pall Mall, S.W. 
 This makes grants to the clergy, who distribute the money mostly in small 
 sums, tickets, &c., on condition that the recipients are visited. These grants 
 amounted to 4,495 in 1884-5. 
 
 The Society for the Relief of Distress, 28 King Street, St. James's, had 
 an income of 2.547 in 1884-85. This is distributed in relief of all kinds 
 through upwards of a hundred almoners. The expenses of the Society are 
 met by a private guarantee fund. 
 
 The Jewish Board of Guardians, 13 Devonshire Square, E., is ready to 
 deal with all applications from Jews. Its income in 1885 was 15,491. 
 
 The Society of St. Vincent de Paul, 31 Queen Square, W.C., is a Roman 
 Catholic Society. Jt has 31 Conferences or Committees in London. Its 
 income in 1885 was 1,480. 
 
 The Charity Organisation Society 1 has 40 District Committees. Through 
 its agency 20,972 was raised and expended in relief in 1884-85. 2 
 
 The Public Gardens Association should also be mentioned. In the 
 department of supplying employment, it would naturally be the ally of any 
 societies that might join forces to deal with exceptional distress. 
 
 THE CENTKAL AGENCY AT A TIME OF EXCEPTIONAL DISTRESS. 
 
 The evidence before the Committee points to this alternative : either 
 to create a new Central Society, or to federate and develop existing 
 societies. 3 
 
 The Committee do not approve of the former course, for the following 
 reasons. Among the clergy of all denominations and their helpers, and in 
 connection with such charitable agencies as are mentioned above, are pro- 
 bably a very large proportion of those who have had experience in relief 
 work, or who would prove capable assistants on an emergency. A new 
 society, or permanent committee with paid officials, would in a measure 
 displace these, would probably have to look for its support from yet 
 another section of the public, and would entail increased expense. For 
 local work it would have to create new machinery, as was done last 
 winter, with every chance of failure. The local organisations of the various 
 societies could not abandon their own proper work to join the new Com- 
 mittees, the management of which would thus, in many instances, fall into 
 new and untried hands. 
 
 1 Of. Roberts, 1615, 1631, 1632 ; Dew, 2111 ; Powell, 2277. 
 
 2 This does not include 14,543, the expenditure on central and local 
 organisation and other branches of work. 
 
 3 Cf. Fletcher, 174 ; Valpy, 227, 229, 243 ; Stephany. 2200, and ethers.
 
 XX 
 
 RECOMMENDA- 
 TION*. 
 
 A Central 
 
 Provisional 
 
 Committee. 
 
 The Committee propose to proceed on the lines of developing existing 
 agencies. 
 
 They would propose the establishment of a Provisional Committee. 
 It should be convened, they think, at as early a date as possible, by Rev. 
 M. S. A. Walrond, one of the Hon. Secretaries of the recent Mansion House 
 Fund; by Mr. Albert Pell, the Chairman of the Council of the Charity 
 Organisation Society ; and, should he consent thereto, by Mr. Francis Peek, 
 who has proposed the formation of a Committee similar to that here sug- 
 gested, it should consist of representatives of the above societies, of the 
 Guardians, of the working classes, and of influential persons who are spe- 
 cially interested in the condition of the poor or have special experience in 
 the work of relief. It should be comparatively small, but thoroughly repre- 
 sentative. To this Committee would be entrusted the following duties : 
 
 I. To ascertain privately, from trustworthy sources, the actual state of 
 affairs in different parts of London, and, if there be unusual distress, the 
 classes and trades which it more particularly affects and the districts in 
 which it is prevalent. 
 
 II. To summon, if necessary, special and influential meetings (which 
 might be private), ami to submit to them the result of their inquiries. 
 
 III. To obtain funds, if they be required for the relief of distress, at 
 these meetings, privately and unostentatiously, but with due public safe- 
 guards. 
 
 IV. To forward to the press such statements of information as would 
 show that satisfactory steps were being taken by them to meet whatever 
 distress might arise, and to advise as to the necessity of making a public 
 appeal in the last resort. 
 
 V. It should further be the duty of the Committee to consider, in con- 
 junction with persons well acquainted with the locality, the best means of 
 extending local machinery to meet increased pressure. In all districts 
 there would have to be trustworthy local Committees. In some, new 
 Committees would have to be formed. In others, a local Society or Com- 
 mittee already in existence might be expanded and throw out Sub- 
 Committees. In others, again, other special combinations would have to be 
 made. In this way the existing machinery would be utilised and improved 
 instead of being set aside and injured. Some districts, well able to cope 
 with local distress, might not require grants from a central fund, but 
 would make, through their local organisations, whatever local appeals 
 might be necessary. 
 
 The importance of a careful selection of the members of local Com- 
 mittees cannot be too strongly insisted on. 
 
 Considering the very great importance of co-operation with the 
 Guardians, the districts of the local Committees should be co-terminous with 
 Poor Law Parishes or Unions or form sections of such Unions. 
 
 VI. Monies received by the Provisional Committee would be paid by 
 way of grants to the Local Committees or other agencies, only under such 
 conditions and such control or inspection as would ensure careful alms- 
 giving, so far as may be possible. 
 
 The Provisional Committee would publish a report of their methods of 
 administration, together with an account, approved and signed by a public 
 auditor, showing what money they had received, and where and how it was 
 spent. 
 
 VII. The Committee hope that the Provisional Committee would adopt, 
 and require the Local Committees to adopt (subject to necessary local modi- 
 fications) the suggestions for dealing with exceptional distress appended 
 to his Report.
 
 XXI 
 
 NOTE. This Section of the Report is printed as an Appendix, in order that it may 
 be reprinted by itself. It necessarily repeats some of the statements made in the 
 Report. 
 
 APPENDIX. LOCAL COMMITTEES AND 
 THEIR RULES. 
 
 SUGGESTIONS AND SUGGESTED RULES FOE DEALING 
 WITH EXCEPTIONAL DISTRESS BY LOCAL COMMITTEES. 
 
 I. GENERAL POLICY OP RELIEF. 
 
 It has now been repeatedly proved that the only way to meet wide- 
 spread and exceptional distress, without doing permanent injury to the 
 mass of the poor, is to adhere to certain general principles and fixed lines of 
 action which they will readily understand. Indecision and vacillation at 
 such a time produce grave mischief. 1 
 
 The creation of a large relief fund tends to occasion additional 
 difficulties and perplexities. Confusion and waste can only be avoided by 
 taking careful measures for the administration of relief beforehand, quietly 
 and without panic. 
 
 To deal with large numbers of people quickly and effectually 'tests' ' Tests' and 
 are necessary, no less than inquiry. inquiry. 
 
 Roughly speaking, applications come from three classes : Classes 
 
 (1) Thrifty and careful men ; requiring 
 
 (2) Men of different grades of respectability, with a decent home ; Ie ' 
 
 (3) The idle, loafing class, or those brought low by drink or vice. 
 
 To the first of these, relief should be given; but if public works are 
 opened they should be recommended to take such work, not as a test, 
 but as temporary employment. 
 
 To the second class (according to the character of the case) relief should 
 be offered (1) conditionally on employment in public or other works ; 
 or (2) the applicant should be referred to the Poor Law labour- yard; or 
 (3) admitted to the workhouse, while the wife and family are supported by 
 charitable relief outside. 
 
 The third class should be left to the Poor Law. Relief by way of alms 
 only maintains them in their evil habits, discourages the thrifty and 
 striving, and leads to still further neglect of wife and family. 
 
 Public works should not be undertaken unless there is clear evidence Public and 
 that the want of employment is so great that some such temporary measures charitable 
 are absolutely necessary to prevent better-class working men from living 
 in semi-starvation. Their tendency must be to keep labour in the same 
 grooves. If the distress is occasioned by some temporary and definite cause, 
 after a short period there will be an improvement in the labour market. If 
 the distress is occasioned by deeper and more permanent causes, public works 
 
 1 See ' Suggestions for Dealing with Exceptional Distress,' published by 
 the Charity Organisation Society, 1884 and 1885. 
 
 In a time of 'commercial embarrassment' 'an ill-regulated distribution 
 of charitable donations may not only fail to relieve the class for whose benefit 
 the funds were collected, but further diminish the resources they would other- 
 wise have obtained by their own exertions.' Dr. KAY, Third Annual Report 
 of the Poor Law Commissioners. 
 
 ' It is the stoutest, not the kindest, heart that is wanted ' ' in times of 
 scarcity or unusual stagnation ' ; and ' all we have to do is to weather the storm 
 as well as we are able, taking additional care to be vigilant and strict in keeping 
 all members of the community within the bounds of duty.' Quoted by Mr 
 Longley in his ' Report to the Local Government Board on Poor Law 
 tration in London,' 1874.
 
 XX11 
 
 Labour-yards. 
 
 The modified 
 workhouse test. 
 
 will act merely as a palliative which may divert attention from the source 
 of the evil and tend to become as chronic as the shortness of work. 
 If public or other works are opened 
 
 (1) Men should only be admitted to them after inquiry or on satis- 
 tory recommendation. 
 
 (2) The wages and the hours should be as nearly as possible according 
 to contract rates. 
 
 (3) Care should be taken to supply sufficient overlookers, and to group 
 the men according to character and ability. 
 
 (4) If a meal is wanted, or clothing, it is better that this should be 
 supplied separately from a relief fund. The employment should be given, 
 
 as far as possible, in accordance with ordinary business contracts, and not 
 as ' charity work,' which tends to be as ill-done as it is ill-paid, and to 
 degrade men instead of improving them. 
 
 (5) Public and other relief works should be of a local character, planned 
 according to estimates drawn by the local authorities, and conducted under 
 local superintendence. This will be some guarantee against waste and 
 irresponsibility. Such works only should be undertaken as are likely to 
 create the least disturbance in the labour market. 
 
 Poor Law Labour-yards are sometimes the only test available, but 
 they have a tendency to become permanent institutions for the supply of 
 cheaply-paid and practically useless labour to casual and idle labourers of 
 all kinds. 
 
 The plan of applying a modified form of the workhouse test in certain 
 cases, by which the man is maintained in the workhouse while the wife 
 and family are supported by voluntary charity, is suggested for the following 
 reasons : 
 
 (1) The assistance is adequate; no homes are broken up, and the 
 relief is so given as to meet the wants of the family the wife and children 
 as well as the husband. 
 
 (2) It will act as an education in provident habits. 
 
 (3) The burden of sacrifice will be thrown on the man ; whereas in all 
 other schemes for dealing with this class, it is liable to be thrown on the 
 woman. 
 
 II. THE LOCAL COMMITTEES. 
 
 r,.. n It is clear that none of the three classes mentioned above, except the 
 
 | H ' I . 1 1 1OII iii-i*' 
 
 with guardians nrst and part of the second, can be properly dealt with, unless there is 
 indispensable, co-operation between the administrators of charitable funds and the Poor 
 Law Guardians. This co-operation is indispensable. 
 
 That there may be agencies for this co-operation and for the direct 
 distribution of relief, local Relief Committees are necessary. These should 
 include representatives 1 
 
 (a) Of the Principal Land and House Owners, 
 
 (6) Of Employers of Labour, 
 
 (c) Of Working Men 2 including representatives of trade societies 
 and benefit clubs. 
 
 (d) Of Charitable Agencies, 
 
 (e) Of Poor Law Guardians and of the Vestry, 
 (/) Of School Teachers and Visitors, 
 
 (g) Of Clergy of all Denominations. 
 
 Committees should be comparatively small and composed of members 
 well acquainted with the district. 3 To such persons the street or neigh- 
 bourhood in which a man lives may be a rough test of some value. So 
 far as possible, people of judgment, who have had some experience, and 
 
 1 Gardiner, 849, 899, 900. 2 Powell, 2260, 2288, 2290 ; Andrews, 2367. 
 3 Gardiner, 892. 
 
 Of whom they 
 should consist.
 
 XX111 
 
 have already interested themselves in the work of charity, should be 
 chosen. Members, e.g., ought to know what questions to ask and how to 
 take down an application. 1 The Clergy should act as advisers to the 
 Committee, rather than as almoners or honorary officials. 2 Their knowledge 
 of the district, of the persons who apply, is often very valuable. 
 
 The area covered by the Committee should be comparatively small. 3 Committee 
 
 To avoid a rush of cases How to avd(1 
 
 (1) Unnecessary publicity should, in the earlier stages, be avoided. a rus i ai 
 
 (2) The rules which the Committee propose to follow should .sub- 
 sequently be advertised in local papers, and given to all applicants. These 
 rules should show in general terms, but clearly, whom the Committee wish 
 to relieve and whom they intend to leave to the Poor Law. (See below IV.) 
 
 (3) It should be clearly stated that relief will only be given after 
 inquiry, or with a labour test. 
 
 ^4) Trustworthy persons, who have been selected for the purpose by 
 the Committee, and who are well acquainted with the district, should refer 
 to the Committee cases which they believe they can thoroughly recom- 
 mend. A number of suitable cases may thus be brought to light, and 
 the multitude of personal applications in part avoided. 
 
 III. INQUIRY. 
 
 Applications should in all cases be made by the head of the family only. Application on 
 
 recommenda- 
 
 Application forms (see Form A), or forms of reference, should be given tions. 
 to members of Committee, selected employers and foremen, the officers 
 of trade and benefit societies, and to clergymen and district visitors of 
 experience. 4 
 
 These forms should be given by them to applicants whom they recom- 
 mend as suitable, according to the rules. (See above.) 
 
 The applicant should be required to attend at the office, and bring with 
 him the application or reference form, duly filled up and signed; and, 
 if the person who sends the case is not an employer or foreman, a 
 recommendation from the employer or foreman will be necessary. 
 
 In all these cases the home will be visited and the reference or 
 recommendation verified, if the pressure is too great to do more. If not, 
 other points in the case may be taken up with a view to a more 
 thorough treatment of it. 
 
 If there is no reference of the applicant to the Committee, he will Direct 
 attend at. the office, the application form will be filled up, and such app ica lon " 
 inquiries made as the time allows. 
 
 Two things should never be omitted : 
 
 (a) The home should be visited. 
 
 (b) An employer or local reference should be communicated with. 
 
 1 Cf. Gardiner, 868, 832, and others. 
 
 2 Bramly, 304, 339 ; Mackay, 1186. 
 
 3 Roberts, 1655 ; Powell, 2305-2308, and others. ' I venture to say,' writes 
 Mr. Salter, that, as an active member of the Kensington and Lambeth Charity 
 Organisation Committees for ten years or more, I was struck by the advantage 
 of the small Local Committees, and the system of assigning certain streets to 
 certain members of Committee. A small Local Committee is more likely to 
 secure the services of the clergy and others immediately concerned than a 
 Charity Organisation Committee which deals with a large district. The know- 
 ledge, the interest, and the responsibility of its members are greater.' 
 
 4 Valpy, 206 ; Bramly, 346, &c. Cf. Acworth, 426, &c. ; Westbrook, 2014, 
 2017. Cf. Powell, 2288. It is best not to use the application form as the 
 paper of reference. The details to be filled up in the application form can, 
 as a rule, be entered with less trouble and more accurately when the applicant 
 is seen at the office of the Committee.
 
 XXIV 
 
 Who should 
 make the 
 inquiry. 
 
 Enquiryof 
 Relieving 
 Officers. 
 
 Sifting of 
 
 cases. 
 
 Decisions. 
 
 Meetings. 
 
 The inquiry should be made by members of Committees and others who 
 have had some experience in relief work. They may in many instances 
 require the assistance of one or more paid officers. It was found last 
 year that much time was saved by the vise of a form (see Form B) for 
 corresponding with references or employers. 1 
 
 To ensure co-operation with the Guardians, 2 it will be well to ascertain 
 from them whether cases are known to them ; and the Guardians might 
 be asked to supply a list of the names of persons in receipt of parochial 
 assistance. Similarly lists of those relieved by the Committee should be 
 sent to the Guardians from time to time. 
 
 IY. DECISION: 
 
 To prevent delay and haphazard and unjust decisions, it will be found 
 convenient to come to an understanding with regard to groups of cases ; 
 with this object it is suggested that the following rules should be adopted 
 by the Committee, and only deviated from by vote on any special case. 
 
 1. That persons known to be drunkards, 'loafers,' or persons of bad 
 character, should not be assisted. 3 
 
 2. That no one in receipt of Poor Law relief should be assisted, except 
 by the payment of club arrears. 
 
 3. That no cases of chronic distress, in which the head of the family is 
 habitually out of work in the winter or never in regular work, be assisted. 
 
 4. That no cases of chronic distress occasioned by long-continued illness, 
 or by old age, be assisted. 4 
 
 5. That no persons living in common lodging-houses should he 
 assisted. 
 
 6. That relief should not be given to persons who have not resided in 
 the district of the Poor Law Union for less than six months, unless there 
 be special reason to the contrary. 
 
 7. That those who have made any provision for the future should be 
 assisted. 5 
 
 It should be remembered that for several of the above classes it will be 
 best to apply some form of labour test, e.g., the labour-yard, &c. ; they 
 would then obtain relief conditionally. But no applicants should be sent 
 to public works, or works set on foot by any relief association, except on 
 recommendation from some trustworthy source or after inquiry. 
 
 Decisions upon cases should be made by Committee, and not left to 
 individual almoners. 6 " 
 
 The Committee should meet daily, if possible. At least half the 
 meetings should be held in the evening, so that working men may be able 
 to attend. 
 
 1 Bramly, 376 ; Acworth, 405, 458 ; Westbrook, 1952, and others. Mr. 
 Edgcombe (Kensington) writes : ' Employers and references were almost 
 always communicated with, usually by letter ; it was observed that employers 
 replied with singular readiness.' 
 
 2 Of. Fletcher, 73 ; Bramly, 369 ; Acworth, 461 ; Westbrook, 1957 ; 
 Roberts, 1612. 
 
 3 Cf. Gardiner, 858. This rule should be adhered to even when there is a 
 wife and family. Otherwise the husband is encouraged to neglect them. Few 
 persons realise how strong a feeling self-reliant working men have as to the 
 waste and in justice of the relief, thoughtlessly given to this class. 
 
 4 These would naturally be dealt with by the more permanent relief 
 agencies. 
 
 5 Tests of this provision would be membership of a club or benefit society, 
 membership of a trade society, savings as shown by bank book, &c. Cf. Valpy, 
 211 ; Bramly, 354 ; Legge, 1137, &c., as to need of thrift ; as to possibility, cf. 
 Dew, 2077, 2114, &c. ; Moss, 2472 ; and Powell, 2255, 2256, 2266, 2284. 
 
 e Fletcher, 43 ; cf. Bramly, 370.
 
 XXV 
 
 Y. RELIEF. 
 
 Relief can be varied and adjusted to the actual wants of an applicant, 
 only if the inquiry is sufficient or the person who recommends the case 
 has a real knowledge of it. To minimise friction and delay and promote 
 effective relief, these two means of discrimination recommendation, and 
 inquiry should be worked together. 
 
 Relief sho^dd not be given at the office, but taken to the homes by members 
 of Committee, almoners, or others. Valuable information is frequently 
 obtained in this way, and crowding at the offices is still further prevented. 
 
 The visitor also may find that the relief ordered should be withheld for 
 further instructions. 
 
 A receipt should be required in all cases upon the Application Form 
 (see back of the Form}. 
 
 If, owing to the number of applications, it is not possible to adjust the 
 relief to the wants of each case, the following scale, the sufficiency of which 
 has been tested by experience, should be adopted as a minimum : 
 
 Weekly Scale for Food and Fuel exclusive of Rent. 
 An adult living alone, 3s. 6d. 
 Two or more adults living together, 2s. Qd. each. 
 Children under 4 years, 6d. each. 
 
 ,, from 4 to 12 years, Is. each. 
 
 ,, from 12 to 16 years, Is. 6d. each. 
 
 Not more than 10s. in one week should, as a rule, be given to any 
 family, as there are generally in large families earnings or income (other 
 than charity) available. 
 
 Relief in kind is not recommended. 1 It is no safeguard to give such 
 relief in doubtful cases, cases in which the head of the family is a drunkard, 
 or where the inquiry is defective. Knowledge of the case is the only real 
 safeguard. 
 
 If, however, relief is given in kind, it should be by orders on any 
 respectable tradesman in the neighbourhood. 2 (/See Form C.) An arbitrary 
 and injurious interference with the custom of the smaller and poorer 
 shopkeepers in the district will thus be avoided. 
 
 Soup-kitchens tend to bring masses of the poor together to be relieved 
 wholesale. The chronic poor may be accustomed to this method of relief. 
 Those of a better type, whom it is the problem of charity to relieve as 
 far as possible, privately and without lowering their self-respect, will shrink 
 from such distributions. 
 
 In special cases it may be found desirable to assist by providing meals. 
 Orders upon cook and coffee shops, or coffee taverns, should then be given. 
 It may be necessary to provide food for children in this way. 
 
 If clothing or boots are required, these too may be provided, after strict 
 inquiry, and when there is definite promise of work. 
 
 If boots are given for children, inquiry should always be made of the 
 schoolmaster or mistress in the first instance, and they should be informed 
 of the gift. 
 
 As a rule it is best to take a view of the whole case, and to estimate its 
 wants, with a view to its ultimate requirements ; and then to give to the 
 applicant in money what is necessary for his adequate assistance. If this 
 be a temporary allowance, it will be given weekly. 
 
 If money is given for any special purpose, the visitor or almoner who 
 has taken it should be required to report that it has been expended in the 
 manner agreed iipon with the applicant. He should see the receipts. 
 
 1 Fletcher, 186 ; Gardiner, 864, and others. 
 
 - Cf. Valpy, 262, 268 ; Westbrook, 1949, &c. Another form for orders on 
 coffee taverns for meals for a fixed period was drawn up by Mr. Valpy and 
 found useful in checking sale of tickets, &c. 
 
 Suilable relief 
 only possible it 
 there is suffi- 
 cient inquiry 
 v, T ith trust- 
 worthy recom- 
 mendation. 
 
 Relief not 
 ffiven at office. 
 
 Scale of relief. 
 
 .Relief in kind. 
 
 Eeport of 
 visitor as to 
 use of monev.
 
 XXVI 
 
 Payment of 
 rent. 
 
 Cases after 
 pressure is 
 
 It is not desirable to pay the applicant's rent, if it can be avoided. But 
 if, as is often the case, a portion of the relief will be used for the rent, it is 
 better to recognise the fact and pay a week's current rent. 
 
 Back rent 1 should under no circumstances be paid. 
 
 The following further forms of relief are suggested : 
 
 (1) Payment of club arrears, after consultation with workmen upon the 
 Committee, and reference to the Secretary of the Club, to whom the money 
 should be paid. 
 
 (2) Taking tools and necessaries out of pawn. The money should in 
 this case be paid to the pawnbroker direct. 
 
 (3) Medical relief. 
 
 (4) Migration. 
 
 (5) The emigration of carefully chosen emigrants to colonies in which 
 it has been ascertained that there is a definite opening for them. 
 
 It has been found that many of the most distressing cases occur after a 
 period of distress, and as the result of the privation and sickness which it 
 causes. However large the fund, therefore, there should be no over-haste 
 in distributing it. The money will be hardly less wanted some weeks after 
 than at the actual time of the greatest pressure of applications. And it 
 will be easier then to do justice to the work. 
 
 1 Fletcher, 156 ; Valpy, 206 ; Gardiner, 874. 
 ward, 654, &c. 
 
 Cf. Mackay, 1215 ; Hay- 
 
 EVIDENCE. 
 
 LIST OF WITNESSES. 
 
 FRIDAY, JUNE 4, 1886. 
 MR. A. P. FLETCHER. | MR. R. A. VALPY. 
 
 FRIDAY, JUNE 11, 1886. 
 MR. J. R. J. BRAMLY. | MR. W. M. ACWORTH. 
 
 FRIDAY, JUNE 18, 1886. 
 REV. W. CURTIS HAYWARD. | MR. W. VALLANCE. 
 
 FRIDAY, JUNE 25, 1886. 
 MR. T. GAGE GARDINER. | MR. W. H. O. JACK. 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 2, 1886. 
 HON. AND REV. CANON LEGGE. 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 9, 1886. 
 
 MR. T. MACKAY. 
 
 MR. T. W. MARCHANT. 
 
 MR. W. HE ALE, 
 Miss M. M. GEE. 
 
 MRS. AVIS. 
 
 MR. F. J. DOVE. 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 16, 1886. 
 
 MR. R. ROBERTS. 
 
 Miss F. R. WILKINSON, 
 FRIDAY, JULY 23, 1886. 
 
 MR. G. COLLIE. MR. G. T. WESTBROOK. 
 
 MR. G. DEW. 
 
 MR. M. STEPHANY. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 27, 1886. 
 
 MR. J. D. POWELL. 
 
 MR. A. S. ANDREWS. 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 30, 1886. 
 MR. N. MOSS.
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 ommiffcc 
 
 CHAEITY ORGANISATION SOCIETY, 
 
 To consider the best means of dealing with 
 
 EXCEPTIONAL DISTRESS. 
 
 FRIDAY, JUNE 4ra, 1886, 11.30 A.M. 
 
 Present MR. A. PELL, in the Chair. 
 
 Mr. J. H. ALLEN, Mr. F. J. S. EDGCOMBE, 
 
 Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD, Hon. and Rev. Canon LEGGE, 
 
 Mr. J. R. HOLLOND, Dr. G. B. LONGSTAFF. 
 
 Mr. R. HEDLEY, attending on behalf of the Local Government Board. 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 MR. A. P. FLETCHER, examined. Mr. A. P. 
 
 FLBTCHBH- 
 
 1. (Chairman) : Mr. Fletcher, would you kindly give me your address ?- 
 
 7 Abercorn Place, N.W. June 4,1880. 
 
 2. You have been good enough to come here as a witness. What do you 
 represent 1 I am one of the honorary secretaries of the St. Marylebone 
 Committee. 
 
 3. Of the Mansion House Fund ? Of the Charity Organisation Society. T 
 was for a time, as representing the real almoner for the Society for the Relief of 
 Distress for Marylebone, General Gardiner, acting as almoner of the Mansion 
 House'Fund, before the local Mansion House Committee was appointed. 
 
 4. Did you take any part in the distribution of the funds of the Mansion 
 House Committee 1 Yes ; for about three or four weeks. 
 
 5. Who appointed you ? I was appointed by Mr. Allen, as representing 
 the Metropolitan Visiting and Relief Association. 
 
 6. Who appointed Mr. Allen to appoint you ? The Committee of the 
 Mansion House Fund, I take it. 
 
 7. You considered you were entrusted with certain duties by the Mansion 
 House Committee ? By the Association, as acting for the Mansion House 
 Committee. 
 
 8. That is to say, the Mansion House Committee delegated their function 
 to another Association ? Yes. 
 
 9. What association ? The Metropolitan Visiting and Relief Association, 
 and the Society for the Relief of Distress. 
 
 10. The Mansion House Fund Committee delegated their functions to these 
 two Associations ? Yes. 
 
 11. One of these Associations invited you to act ? Yes ; perhaps it would 
 be more correct to say that the two Associations agreed to ask me, as one of the 
 almoners of the Society for the Relief of Distress, to act. They acted conjointly 
 in the matter.
 
 Mr. A. P. 12. Did they consult you at all, or merely ask you to distribute certain 
 
 FLETCHER. funds ? They asked me to distribute their funds. And they gave me im- 
 Jwie 4, 188G. mediately some directions as to the manner in which the funds were to be 
 distributed. 
 
 13. Were those directions given in writing ? In writing. I am sorry it did 
 not occur to me to bring them. 
 
 14. They gave you certain printed instructions ? At first they were 
 written. 
 
 15. Did you act upon these ? Yes. 
 
 16. What were the first steps you took in consequence of the instructions 
 you received ? Well, at first I took up a merely passive attitude. The appli- 
 cants came in such large numbers that it was not necessary to take any active 
 steps. 
 
 17. What do you mean by a passive attitude 1 There was neither the time, 
 nor did I see the necessity, to take active steps for the administration of the 
 fund, the applicants came in such large numbers. 
 
 18. How did they find you out ? The Mansion House Committee, I believe, 
 issued instructions right and left indicating where the different channels were 
 through which the fund would be distributed. I think I have evidence of that. 
 
 19 . You think that the Mansion House Committee issued instructions right 
 and left, denoting where the carcasses were where applicants might go for 
 relief? That is my impression. 
 
 (Dr. Longstaff) : They certainly advertised it in the papers. I have seen 
 circulars in which the names of the different offices were printed. 
 
 20. We have this stated by Mr. Fletcher. He says he believes that there 
 were notices issued telling these applicants where they could go to ask for the 
 money. That is how they came to him. We have not got a copy of one of 
 these notices that were put about ? 
 
 (Mr. Loch) : I have got some of those. 
 
 21. We want to trace how the people came to you ? Besides the issue of 
 these printed forms, the applicants went in great numbers to the Mansion 
 House, and were no doubt sent on to the different districts. 
 
 22. Well, then, have we got a copy of the paper that the Mansion House 
 Committee sent you ? That is a copy of the first communication I received 
 from the Metropolitan Visiting and Relief Association. The letter is as 
 follows : 
 
 METROPOLITAN VISITING AND BELIEF ASSOCIATION, 
 46A PALL MALL, S.W., Feb. llth, 1886. 
 
 DEAR SIR, You will have seen that the Lord Mayor is raising a Fund for the 
 Temporary Relief of the Unemployed in London. At a meeting held at the Mansion 
 House yesterday, four Sub-Committees were appointed to supervise the distribution of 
 this Fund, and our Committee takes charge of the north and west of London north of 
 the Thames. 
 
 We have the pleasure of enclosing you a cheque for t.he sum of , to be 
 distributed by you on the following conditions : 
 
 (1) That relief be given, as far as possible, in kind to deserving working-men thrown 
 
 out of employment through the present depression of trade, and not to the 
 ordinary chronic cases of sick and aged, or the class who never are in 
 work. 
 
 (2) That when relief is given, in order to prevent overlapping, communications be 
 
 interchanged with the Parish Authorities, the Almoner of the Society for the 
 Relief of Distress, and the Local Committee of the Charity Organisation 
 Society. 
 
 (3) That a return of all cases assisted from this Special Fund be forwarded to this 
 
 office as often as possible, and kept separate from the ordinary cases of 
 distress. 
 
 We are, Sir, 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 CHARLES ERTJCB. 
 
 HT. HAFiDCASTLE. 
 
 F. C. TREVOR 
 J. H. ALLEN.
 
 23. It is signed by Lord Charles Bruce, H. Hardcastle, General Trevor, and Mr. A. p. 
 yourself, Mr. Allen 1(Mr. Allen) : Yes. FLETCHER 
 
 24. Four members of the Committee ? (Mr. Allen) : The whole of the j une 4, isse 
 Committee. 
 
 25. Having received this it is dated the llth February. It is not from the 
 Mansion House ? (Mr. Allen) : No ; we were a Sub-Committee of the 
 Mansion House Committee for the north and north-west of London. 
 
 26. How much money was sent you ? 10 was the first sum I received. I 
 got it on the same day as the instructions. 
 
 27. What did you do with it 1 Did you bank it 1 Yes ; I passed it into my 
 own private account. I did not open a separate account, cr mix it with the 
 funds of the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 28. And then you remained passive ? What was it that interrupted you ? 
 The first thing I found it necessary to do, besides dealing with the cases as they 
 appeared, was to appoint sub-almoners throughout Marylebone. 
 
 29. What first disturbed you ? What stimulated you into activity ? The 
 press of the applicants. 
 
 30. Did they come in large numbers and knock at your door 1 Yes. 
 
 31. Were you surprised at that 1 I was at first. The people came knocking 
 at the door of the Charity Organisation Society Office. 
 
 32. I want to know whether the office at which the funds were distributed 
 was the office of the Charity Organisation Society 1 Yes. 
 
 33. When you found that the applicants came to the office, you appointed 
 other almoners 1 Yes ; by degrees. 
 
 34. You and a special Committee of the Charity Organisation Society, I 
 suppose ? Well, the Committee of the Charity Organisation Society took no 
 active part. They did not desire to be identified with the fund. They gave 
 the use of their offices, and allowed me to devote my time to it, and gave me 
 the use of the entire staff, and even employed additional agents for inquiries. 
 The whole strength of the Marylebone Charity Organisation Office was 
 turned on. 
 
 35. How many almoners did you appoint? By degrees nearly all the 
 clergy throughout Marylebone about twenty in number. 
 
 36. Every clergyman, and ministers of other denominations ? Yes ; Catholics 
 and Nonconformists as well. Three parishes I was not able to deal with up to 
 the time of the Committee being formed. One was Christ Church, of which 
 the Rev. Llewellyn Davies is Vicar. 
 
 37. Did he act with you ? No ; he resolutely declined to have anything to 
 do with it. I pressed him very much. I was very anxious that he should help 
 me ; but he would not. 
 
 38. He did not agree with the principle of the fund ? No ; he had the 
 courage of his convictions, and would not have any tiling to do with it. 
 
 39. Did you endeavour to find an almoner as a substitute for Mr. Davies ? 
 Yes ; one was eventually found a Mr. Physick, a sculptor, a Nonconformist, 
 connected with a Visiting and Relief Society in the parish. 
 
 40. Having taken all the gentlemen connected with spiritual matters in the 
 parish, did you get any other class as almoners ? The Committee in Pall Mall 
 appointed a Mr. Blennerhassett, a layman ; and besides Mr. Physick I appointed 
 a Mr. Fraser, who worked amongst the poor in St. Thomas's parish, and Mr. 
 A. K. Connell, who undertook the district of Portland Town. These were all 
 laymen. 
 
 41. Generally, as a rule, your almoners consisted of the clergy and Dissenting 
 ministers ? Chiefly the clergy. 
 
 42. These almoners being appointed, had they any voice in the settlement 
 of the principles upon which the fund was to be distributed ? Were they called 
 together at the offices of the Charity Organisation Society ? No ; they were 
 left to do as they liked in the places which got grants from the fund. 
 
 43. The Mansion House Fund was the heart, and you were the great vein, 
 and these were the subsidiary veins through which the money passed ? Not 
 strictly so ; nominally so. In reality, I always regarded the other almoners as 
 quite independent of me. My connection with their appointment was the 
 recommendation of their appointment to the Sub-Committee in Pall Mall. 
 
 44. The almoners having been appointed, the distribution of the grants they
 
 Mr. A. r. received was in their own judgment? Yes ; I had nothing further to do with 
 PLKTCHKU. fa When they were once appointed, they rendered their accounts direct to the 
 Committee in Pall Mall. 
 
 45. Did they receive money direct from Pall Mall ? Yes. 
 
 46. As soon as yon sent their names in ? Yes ; as quickly as the circum- 
 stances of the case would allow. It took time. 
 
 47. Did you receive more than 10 ? Yes ; 40 in all. 
 
 48. Could you say what the other almoners received ? Not without refer- 
 ence to my papers. Not a very large sum. 
 
 49. About 100 or 200 ? Up to the time of the appointment of the Com- 
 mittee, I should think something like 500. 
 
 50. Did the other almoners use the Charity Organisation Society Office ? 
 No ; scarcely at all. 
 
 51. Did you take any further part in the proceedings after the other almoners 
 were appointed ? None, except as regards the three parishes which I was not 
 able to get almoners for Christ Church, and two others. They were three of 
 the poorest parishes in Marylebone one sent hundreds of applicants. Up to 
 the appointment of the Committee, I was the almoner of these three parishes. 
 
 52. I thought this 10 was the first money that came into your district from 
 the Mansion House ? It was. 
 
 53. How could you have been an almoner before you got any money? It 
 was with my appointment I received this 10. 
 
 54. Do you mean that you distributed some of that before you appointed the 
 other almoners ? 
 
 (Dr. Longstaff) : Mr. Fletcher refers to the appointment of the Committee. 
 The almoners were appointed by the Committee. (Mr. Fletcher) : The Committee 
 retained the whole of the organisation I had made. They did not disturb the 
 organisation I had made. 
 
 55. You were invited by this Sub-Committee of the Mansion House Fund, 
 a Sub-Committee acting for your district, to accept the 10, which you were to 
 distribute upon certain conditions set forth in this letter. That was the com- 
 mencement of the whole thing. Upon the receipt of the 10 you, after 
 remaining passive for a little time, and finding tha applicants pressing at the 
 Charity Organisation Society Office, appointed more almoners ? You did not 
 give away any of the 10 yourself? Yes ; I gave it myself. It was naturally 
 spent very quickly. I never handed any part of my 10 to the other almoners ; 
 I administered what grants I received myself. 
 
 56. You got almoners appointed, and they received other money something 
 like 500 direct from the Mansion House Fund which they distributed in a 
 way about which you knew nothing ? In a way about which I had no official 
 knowledge. 
 
 57. Would you tell us what you did with the 10 ? I acted upon the methods 
 of the Charity Organisation Society : I did not give any money away without a 
 certain amount of inquiry. As we had the cases inquired into, I distributed 
 the money, and the 10 was quickly spent. 
 
 58. And thereupon you applied for a further grant that was at the same 
 time as you were making arrangements for subdividing the district ? 1 made 
 application for a further grant for myself as an almoner, and it was sent me. 
 The amount which came into my hands in all was 40. I distributed that 
 individually. 
 
 59. You tell us you received 40 ; would the distribution of that relieve 
 the funds of the Charity Organisation Society very much ? I am not sure that 
 I understand the question. 
 
 60. Did you take up cases that would otherwise have had to be dealt with by 
 Charity Organisation Society money ? I think that extremely little of the 
 money would have been granted by the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 61. Is that your judgment ? Do you think that if the Charity Organisation 
 Society had had the 40 in their hands, they would not have distributed the 
 money as you did ? Undoubtedly, as to a great part of it. I think the 
 majority of the cases were more or less chronic cases. We should have had 
 difficulty in finding anybody to participate if we had excluded chronic cases 
 altogether.
 
 The rules issued by the fund were produced. They were as follows : ^ v p 
 
 I'LKTOHKJ:. 
 MANSION HOUSE BELIEF FUND FOR THE UNEMPLOYED. Jun7Z7s.sc. 
 
 LOCAL COMMITTEES. 
 Constitution of Committees. 
 THE Committees should include representatives 
 
 (a) Of Clergy of all denominations, 
 (h) Of Charitable Agencies, 
 
 (c) Of Working Men, 
 
 (d) Of Poor Law Guardians. 
 
 (e) Of Employers of Labour. 
 
 The Central Council reserves the right of nominating Members on the Local 
 Committees. 
 
 The area of each Local Committee shall be, if possible, conterminous with th.it of 
 the Poor Law Union in which it is formed. Such Local Committees may be divided into 
 Divisional Committees, the boundaries of which should be clearly defined, and, further, 
 into Sectional Committees, if thought expedient. 
 
 The Sectional Committees (when such exist) shall report daily all cases relieved, and 
 the expenditure upon each case, to the Divisional Committee. 
 
 The Divisional Committees shnll report all cases in their divisions, and the expen- 
 diture on each case, to the Local Committees, who shall be responsible to the Central 
 Committee at the Mansion House, and send in returns of all cases relieved, and the 
 expenditure on each case, as often as may be required by the Central Committee. 
 
 Rules for Distribution of Relief. 
 
 1. That no part of the funds be used for the relief of cases of chronic distress. 
 
 2. That, as a general rule, no relief be given to able-bodied single men with no one 
 dependent upon them, except as a means of enabling them to obtain employment. 
 
 3. That no part of the funds be used for the payment of back rent. 
 
 4. That relief be not given to any persons who have come into their respective 
 parishes since January 1st, 1886, except after rigid inquiry. 
 
 (). That money may be paid to keep a man on his club, or to reinstate him when his 
 membership has recently run out. 
 
 6. That in respectable cases, after strict inquiry, necessary articles that have been 
 pawned may be redeemed. 
 
 7. That the relief given should never exceed 3s. to 4s. for an adult, and Is. for each 
 child ; nor more than 10s. weekly for the family. 
 
 8. That money grants should be made only in approved cases. 
 
 9. That no money should be given to those in receipt of out-door relief, except 
 where the applicants belong to clubs, iu which cases tluir club arrears may be paid up. 
 
 62. The first rule of the fund is, ' That no part of the funds be used for 
 ihe relief of cases of chronic distress.' You admit that you violated that rule ? 
 I am afraid I must. 
 
 63. I want to know whether, if you had not violated that rule, would you 
 have got rid of the money ? Not of much of it. 
 
 04. You were obliged to pursue what you think a bad and a mischievous 
 practice because you could not get rid of the money in any other way ? You 
 know, sir, that it is only by practical experience in the administration of 
 a fund of this kind that you can positively say whether you are relieving proper 
 cases and at the same time acting in accordance with the instructions of the 
 donors or not. I can only say that in nearly every case I was in doubt. 
 
 65. You violated the rule, or were in doubt about it. As a member of the 
 Charity Organisation Society, would you be opposed to the giving of money to 
 such cases as you relieved ? As regards a great number. Yes. 
 
 66. You would not relieve them ? Why ? Because it is a cardinal principle 
 of the Charity Organisation Society that they will not give relief which is 
 inadequate, or which will not permanently benefit the recipient. 
 
 67. In your own judgment would you have done it 1 If I had been free from 
 all the restraints cast upon me by acting with the Charity Organisation Society, 
 I think in many cases 1 should not. 
 
 68. (Dr.Loiigstaff) : What was your reason for giving to these cases ? Did 
 
 C
 
 iir. A. P. you feel a sort of pressure upon you from the number of the applicants, and, in 
 PuncHKB. consequence, did not like to refuse ? Did that lead you to break the rule ? 
 June 4, 188G. No ; if that was so if it was mere pressure I could have given the amount 
 100 times, and more. 
 
 69. (Mr. Edgcombe) : Were you influenced by the fact that in a long time of 
 frost the Charity Organisation Society would relax its practice ? No doubt that 
 had something to do with the consideration of the question in many cases, but, 
 generally speaking, I did not find that the cases that came before me were 
 different in any appreciable degree from the ordinary cases applying for relief. 
 I have no doubt that in the East End and other parts of London there were 
 cases of the kind contemplated by the fund, but in Marylebone the poor consist 
 very much of the classes that hang upon the rich. 
 
 70. (Chairman) : After all, is their condition now different from last year ? 
 I often put the question to them, and I am sorry to say it was rather in the 
 mature of a trap, because, generally, thinking to strengthen their claim, they 
 said ' No ; their condition was very much the same ' ; I then told them, that 
 being so, they were not intended to be recipients of the money received from 
 the Mansion House Committee. 
 
 71. Still you relieved them '? Not much. I only distributed 40 in all. 
 
 72. Now, Mr. Fletcher, the next instruction was that in order to prevent 
 overlapping you were to enter into communication with the parish authorities, 
 the almoner of the Society for the Relief of Distress, and the Local Committee 
 of the Charity Organisation Society. Who were the parish authorities ? The 
 relieving officers, I take it. I won't say we went to them in every case. 
 We were not able to make the usual Charity Organisation Society inquiries. 
 There was no time. We did make some inquiry, but had to limit it to verifying 
 the applicants' statements as to addresses, last employers, and so forth. 
 
 73. You did communicate with the relieving officers 1 I should not like to 
 pledge myself to that in every case. 
 
 74. Did you communicate with them at all ? I am not able to answer the 
 question. I hope we did in some cases. 
 
 75. You did not apply to the relieving officer for any lists of the cases on his 
 books ? No ; I think not. 
 
 76. Does not the relieving officer come to the Charity Organisation Society's 
 office to see ? No ; we only send round. We come into touch with the 
 relieving officer on certain individual cases. 
 
 77. What was the nature of your inquiry of the relieving officer ? I am 
 afraid the inquiry was not made as much as it was intended to have been. 
 
 78. In fact, very little was done with the relieving officer ? I think there 
 was. 
 
 79. Did he ever come to you saying you were doing harm ? No ; he would 
 not be likely to do that. He would be rather pleased, because cases would be 
 likely to be taken off his hands. 
 
 80. Did any guardian ever say a word to you on the subject with reference 
 to individual cases ? No ; I think not. 
 
 81. (Mr. Edgcombe) : Is the stoneyard open in Marylebone ? I do not 
 know. 
 
 82. (Chairman) : You were also to communicate with the Local Committee 
 of the Charity Organisation Society. That of course you did ? Yes ; I was 
 in constant communication with them. 
 
 83. Did you make any return of the cases assisted by you ? Yes ; I was 
 bound to do that. The rule was, when applying for a further grant, to send in 
 a statement of the cases relieved, merely giving the heads of the cases, the 
 names, and so forth. 
 
 84. What were the heads ? Did you set forth whether the relieved person 
 was a married man or a single man, a married woman or a single woman I Did 
 the particulars go in upon any form ? Yes ; they gave us a form. At first, a 
 simple form ; afterwards, a more elaborate one. 
 
 85. (Rev. W. C. Hayicard) : The first form was from the Society for the 
 Relief of Distress. 
 
 86. (Chairman) : That came to you shortly after you received the letter ? 
 At the same time, I think.
 
 87. This was the return you filled up afterwards there was a more elaborate Mr A. i. 
 return ? I have not got a copy. FLETCHHB. 
 
 88. This return set forth, in different columns, first the name, then the June 4, ISHO 
 address, then the occupation, then the weekly wages, then the number of the 
 
 family, ages of children, and circumstances of distress ; how long in London, 
 date, and amount of relief ? That is the more elaborate form. 
 
 89. No ; the first form ? (Mr. Allen) : The first form was exactly the same as 
 the Society for the Belief of Distress sent round. 
 
 90. The first form left out the circumstances of distress. Did it give how 
 long in London ? I think not. 
 
 91. Did it give the number of the family and age of the children ? (Rev. W. 
 . Hayward) : The circumstances under which relief was given is in the first 
 form. 
 
 92. How much money did you distribute with the first form before you, 
 and how much with the second? As far as I was individually concerned, I only 
 used the first form. I never used the more elaborate form. 
 
 93. You yourself only used the first form ? Yes. 
 
 94. How did you proceed when an applicant came before you ? Did you 
 have this sheet before you ? No ; 1 never used that until afterwards. I only 
 entered down the cases that were relieved. The applicants were admitted one 
 by one into one of the waiting-rooms of the Charity Organisation Society. 
 Their story was heard. If I thought it was a case which would be certain not 
 to be entertained, I dismissed it at once. I never took down any written par- 
 ticulars unless of a case which there was a chance of my relieving. 
 
 95. Did you have many cases that were manifestly improper cases ? A 
 very large number at least 50 per cent. 
 
 96. You rejected, without inquiry, about 50 per cent. ? Yes. 
 
 97. Fifty per cent, were beggars, in fact ? No ; but obviously cases not 
 intended to be relieved by the fund. 
 
 98. Not cases that could be dragged within the meaning of the fund 1 They 
 were destitute cases, were they not '? Probably many were pronounced chronic 
 cases, and not good cases of their class. 
 
 99. Did you exclude these cases where they were manifestly chronic 
 cases ? If they were manifestly chronic cases, I dismissed them. 
 
 100. Did many of this 50 per cent, come to you for payments of back rent ? 
 The majority of them were in that position. There must have been a stronger 
 reason for dismissing them than that. The plea was always out of work, of 
 course. I cannot say the number. I am sorry to say I did not keep a list. 
 
 101. (Mr. Holland) : Would you give us an instance of a case you would 
 reject after making the ordinary inquiry? Of course of these a great many 
 were known to the Charity Organisation Committee. They had already been 
 before us, and had been proved to be cases which were not of a remediable 
 character. A considerable number were of the class of servants. In Maryle- 
 bone there is a great number of domestic servants, especially of the male sex, 
 out of place. I rejected these applications. 
 
 102. (Chairman) : Do you think they came to you while they were in 
 service ? No ; when they were out of place. I did not consider that they came 
 within the rules. 
 
 103. You took down the names arid addresses of all cases when you went 
 further into them, asked the occupation, the weekly wage filled up this paper, 
 in fact 1 We filled up the Charity Organisation Society paper, and made inquiry 
 by one of the inquiry officers of the Society. 
 
 104. Ultimately, you recommended the man for relief 1 This paper had to 
 be filled up only if I had given relief. 
 
 105. In making the inquiry, at what point did the cases you thought might 
 possibly be fitting for relief at what point did they generally fail 1 Did they 
 give false addresses ? No. 
 
 106. False name ? No ; probably on the ground of character. 
 
 107. False statement as to wages, or as to number of family and age of 
 children ? We should not regard these statements so much. The poor often 
 misstate their circumstances. 
 
 108. (Mr. Holland) : There is no exclusion on account of character in the 
 
 c 2
 
 8 
 
 Mr. A. P. rules ; nothing to exclude a drunken man, for instance, from relief ?- -I never 
 PLETCHEK. g &V Q money to a man I knew to be a drunkard. I should regard him as 
 June 4, 1886. inadmissible. I did make character a condition. 
 
 109. There is nothing said about it in the rules 1 No. 
 
 110. (Chairman) : You had this money placed in your hands for the iclief of 
 destitution character is not mentioned at all in the rules ; it was for the relief 
 of unemployed persons ? You did take character into account ? Yes ; certainly. 
 
 111. (Mr. Allen) : My first letter from the Metropolitan Visiting and Relief 
 Association stated that it was for the relief of deserving working-men out of 
 employment. 
 
 112. (Chairman) : When you did relieve, you filled up this paper and sent 
 it in ? One point, I think, you are forgetting. It was not for the relief of the 
 poor, but for the class thrown out of employment by the present exceptional 
 state of trade. That was one of the directions we received from the Mansion 
 House Fund, and I kept it before me as a guiding principle. 
 
 113. May we take it, as a rule, that the persons with respect to whose cases 
 you filled up the form were really working people ? Yes. 
 
 114. Did you assist such people as clerks ? We had very few. I would 
 not have refused a clerk if I had ascertained that he was thrown out of 
 employment by the depression of trade, though I don't think the fund was 
 intended for him. 
 
 115. With respect to depression of trade, what evidence had you of the 
 depression of trade in your district ? Not much. 
 
 116. Was there any, apart from what usually accompanies winter, when 
 plasterers, of course, cannot plaster, harvest people cannot cut corn, gardeners 
 cannot plant out annuals, apart from the ordinary suspension of trade which 
 accompanies frost, and which everybody may calculate upon ? What can you 
 tell us of exceptional depression of trade ? The trade of the country being 
 depressed it may be admitted that there is some depression in trade of course 
 affects the richer classes, who are not so well able to spend money ; and the 
 working men of Marylebone depend very much upon the prosperity of the rich. 
 
 117. (Dr. Longstaff) : Did you get evidence with regard to trades influenced 
 by season ? Did you get evidence that it had been an unusually bad summer 
 the year before, and the people were not so well off? Yes ; they were further 
 behind ; their unemployed time had been longer. 
 
 118. They had not been able to lay by a reserve ? That is tha cause of all 
 the distress with these classes ; they spend the wages they earn while they are 
 in employment. 
 
 119. (Chairman} : Did they tell you that wages had come down ? take a 
 bricklayer, for instance. I am not able to say. 
 
 120. I know, and with respect to your district, too, that they have not come 
 down ; they never did come down 9d. per hour is the price that bricklayers 
 have been paid in your district the whole of last summer, and since about the 
 year 1870. 
 
 121. Can you tell us of any trade of any working man who satisfied you that 
 his rate of wages had been less in the summer of 1885 ? No; I have no recollec- 
 tion of that particular point being discussed. 
 
 It is a particular point in this inquiry. 
 
 122. Did you ask any of these people whether they had been out of work in 
 the summer ? Yes ; always. 
 
 123. And the length of time ?--Yes. 
 
 124. Did they tell you why they were out of work ? They would say it was 
 the state of trade, or the sta-te of the country. 
 
 125. Did you ask ' Who did you work for ?' Yes ; always. 
 
 126. Did you ask the rate of wages they received in the summer ? Did they 
 differ from the wages he usually received ? That 1 did not go into. 
 
 127. Did you ask him how long he had been out of work ? Yes ; always. 
 
 128. And the cause ? I never got anything but slackness. 
 
 129. You never in any one case tested that ? You were satisfied with the 
 general expression of slackness ? Yes. 
 
 130. Slackness might have been originated by a strike ? Yes ; possibly. 
 
 131. It might have originated from a man not doing the work in the way the
 
 9 
 
 contractors liked it do , and fresh men being introduced from the north to M( . A p 
 supersede and supplant men who did not fulfil what was required of them. You FLKTCI'IEB. 
 never entered into that part of the inquiry ? No. 
 
 132. (Mr. Holland) : As a matter of fact, you had to relieve with your fund 
 eases which would, under ordinary circumstances, be relieved by the ordinary 
 relief agencies ? Undoubtedly. 
 
 133. Your fund was only another added to the numerous relief agencies in 
 the district, clerical and otherwise ? Undoubtedly. 
 
 134. In point of fact, the only effect upon your district was that the appeal 
 for the fund simply made the number of applications to the other charitable 
 agencies smaller ! One effect, certainly. 
 
 135. Your general view would be that, so far as Marylebone was concerned, 
 the appeal of a special fund stimulated applications for relief ? Yes ; I am 
 strongly of that opinion. 
 
 13(3. Can you state your opinion as to the general policy of these special 
 appeals, whether such appeals should be made, or the money distributed through 
 the ordinary relief agencies? I have jotted down very briefly answers to the 
 questions on the agenda, but I don't know whether you care to read them. 
 My general views would perhaps be gathered from the notes I have made by 
 way of answers to these questions. I do not know whether it would be 
 possible for me to answer your question without making a very long statement. 
 
 137. I think you assented to this proposition, that, as far as Marylebone is 
 concerned, the appeal for the Mansion House Fund was not particularly wanted ; 
 that the relief that was required could have been got from the ordinary relief 
 agencies ; that, as a matter of fact, the class relieved was just the class that 
 would have been brought in due course before the ordinary relief agencies ? 
 Undoubtedly ; that is not only my own opinion, but also the opinion of 
 members of my Committee. So far as I have had an opportunity of ascertaining, 
 there was no doubt about it at the Charity Organisation Society Committee. 
 
 138. Do you mean the Charity Organisation Society Committee, or the 
 almoners ? I am speaking of the Charity Organisation Society Committee. 
 
 139. I gather that the almoners did not meet with you ? There were no 
 meetings of the almoners ? Not until after the appointment of the General 
 Committee, when my functions as almoner ceased. 
 
 140. Other almoners may have had a different experience to yourself You 
 have not exchanged experiences with them ? That is so. 
 
 141. (Hon. and Ilev. Canon Legge) : You said there were a large number of 
 servants out of place ? A considerable number yes. 
 
 142. Men-servants, coachmen, butlers, and the like. It has been stated 
 that the number of men-servants employed is much smaller than usual. Do 
 you suppose that is the case ? Yes ; probably. I fancy the rich are not quite 
 so well off, and are not employing so many men-servants. 
 
 143. An unusually large number are now out of employment ? Yes. 
 
 144. These would be rather a large class, would they not ? I am speaking 
 merely from the number of cases that came before me at the time of the distri- 
 bution of the Mansion House Fund. 
 
 145. It is the result of the experience you gained in administering the 
 relief. 
 
 14G. Did you go to registry offices, and so forth, to ascertain this ? No; it was 
 my impression. 
 
 147. (Chairman) : Did you ever write to a master to know whether the story 
 was true 1 No ; I don't know that I relieved any. 
 
 148. (Hon. and Rev. Canon Legge) : If they were out of employment in 
 consequence of the depression of trade, would not they be cases contemplated by 
 the fund ? "We did not think so. We regarded the fund as more especially for 
 artisans thrown out of employment by the state of trade. I think that was what 
 the Mansion House Fund was for, though in time it degenerated into 
 something very different. 
 
 149. You did not include coachmen and domestic servants under the head of 
 working men ? No. 
 
 150. (Chairman) : More the handicraft people ? Yes.
 
 10 
 
 Mr. A. P. 151. (Hon. and Rev. Canon Legge) : I think you said you had the parish of 
 
 FI.KTCHKU. Christ Church specially under your supervision ? Yes. 
 
 June 4 188C. 152. I suppose that the principles of the Charity Organisation Society are 
 
 adopted by Mr. Davies, the Vicar I Yes ; and he relieves all his own poor. 
 He uses our machinery of inquiry and for obtaining accommodation for con- 
 valescent cases, but he never asks us for funds for the assistance of his cases. 
 He does that all himself. 
 
 153. His action did not result in a smaller number of cases being received 
 from his parish than from others ? The temptation was too great ? Yes. 
 
 154. (Chairman) : If you relieved his cases, you defeated Mr. Davies ? 
 Possibly. 
 
 155. (Mr. Allen) : In the event of next winter being a severe winter, would 
 you recommend the establishment of another Mansion House Fund I No ; I 
 should not. 
 
 156. (Dr. Longstaff) : Did you have experience of the poor filling up forms I - 
 I had no occasion to supply forms. They found them themselves very easily. 
 A certain Mr. Kenny distributed little printed forms in every court in 
 Marylebone, and, I suppose, all over London. I received in one day a batch of 
 12 or 20 of these little forms all filled up in the same handwriting, which I 
 heard was the landlord's all Irish cases applying for back rent. 
 
 157. Do you think that there is any particular advantage attaching to the 
 forms being filled up by the people themselves ? It adds to the facility of 
 applying. 
 
 158. But, on the contrary, do you think it adds facility to your con- 
 sidering the cases ? Yes ; I think it does. 
 
 159. (Mr. Loch) : How does it add to the facility of checking cases ? If a 
 man sends in the form, we might probably be able to deal with the case without 
 troubling him to come to the office. It gives us notice of the name, and so on. 
 
 160. (Dr. Longstaff) : Did you have any cases in which the addresses on 
 the form were false ? If I had, they were rare instances. I always verified the 
 address, and saw the last employer. These were the two essential inquiries. 
 We ought always to have gone to the relieving officer, as we do in Charity 
 Organisation Society inquiries, but there was no time for thorough inquiry. 
 
 161. (Mr. Loch) : Does not the distribution of the form stimulate applica- 
 tions ? Yes ; it is probably a drawback for that reason. 
 
 162. (Mr. Hedley) : You first had to do with the fund through Mr. Allen's 
 letter? I received that letter because I was one of the almoners of the Society 
 for the Relief of Distress. In that capacity they wrote to me. I was acting 
 for General Gardiner. 
 
 163. You obtained the co-operation of the clergy of the parish in the dis- 
 tribution ? Yes. 
 
 164. Did you communicate to the clergy the conditions laid down in the 
 letter as to the persons to whom the Mansion House Fund was to be dis- 
 tributed II think I left that for the people in Pall Mall. 
 
 165. They did not know at all the conditions ? I did not supply them with 
 the forms and instructions. 
 
 166. Did the people in Pall Mall know ? (Mr. Allen) : We did. Whenever 
 we made a grant, we always sent out the rules at the same time to the almoner. 
 
 167. (Mr. Hedley) : Did you comply with the conditions laid down in the 
 letter ? I endeavoured to do so, but cannot say I strictly did it. I kept them 
 in view. 
 
 168. With regard to what has been said about men-servants in Marylebone, 
 is it within your knowledge that a large number of people in the parish of 
 Marylebone employ foreigners as servants instead of Englishmen? We had a 
 good many applications from foreigners ; I think it is not unlikely. I have no 
 particular knowledge upon the point. We have had at the Charity Organisation 
 Society Office several applications from domestic servants Germans, Swiss, and 
 others. I should not wonder if such was the case. 
 
 169. (Mr. Loch) : It seems to me from the evidence you have given that 
 there was a considerable want of clearness in the rules for the distribution of 
 the fund. Do you think that the policy of the fund should have been more 
 clearly stated ? Yes, certainly ; all the five points entered in the rough draft of
 
 11 
 
 agenda ought to be set forth in the policy of the administration of any future M r. A - p - 
 
 fund. FLHTTHKH. 
 
 170. That would have helped you considerably? Yes. June'i, i86. 
 
 171. (Chairman) : Have you got a copy of the rough draft agenda of the 
 Committee sitting here to-day 'I Mr. Loch is now referring to the live divisions 
 on the 4th sub-section on the bottom of the first page . 
 
 4. Should those who appeal state what will be their policy of administration ? 
 Thus : (1) The classes they wish to reach or exclude. 
 
 (2) The machinery they intend to use. 
 
 (3) Their policy as to the Poor Law. 
 
 (4) Their co-operation with charities. 
 
 (6) Their co-operation with working-class societies. 
 
 172. (Mr. Loch) : Would you say it would be necessary 1 I do say so, 
 emphatically. 
 
 173. Take these five heads. Would you add anything to them, or exclude 
 anything from them 1 The heads are so comprehensive that I don't think I 
 can suggest anything. 
 
 174. Take the question of machinery. If there is a special fund, would you 
 say you ought to have special machinery, or would you utilise the machinery as 
 it stood, much as you did in the first few weeks when the Society for the 
 Relief of Distress came to the front ? I think it is better to use the ordinary 
 machinery. 
 
 175. (Chairman) : A member of the Committee, who has been obliged to 
 leave, has left this question, whether cases were always considered on the 
 individual judgment of each almoner? I had no one to advise me, and was 
 obliged to act upon my own judgment in giving relief. 
 
 176. You gave without seeing the applicants 1 Oh ! never. 
 
 177. Did you consult the guardians as to the out-of-work cases ? I am 
 afraid not. 
 
 178. There is a point here upon the agenda point No. 7 upon the second 
 page did you keep yourself in touch upon the question of the amount of 
 distress by getting any reports from the other parts of London as to what the 
 Sub-Committees were doing there ? I did not. 
 
 179. Or by any inquiry as to what was going on in other parts of London ? 
 I made no such inquiry. 
 
 180. Are you quite satisfied, with the information on your paper, that the 
 cases relieved by you might not also have been relieved by another Sub-Com- 
 mittee ? The clergy limited themselves strictly to their own districts. The 
 clergy were the almoners, with one or two laymen. 
 
 181. Do you say that the clergy would have made inquiries whether a 
 person was getting relief from another part I How did you know I The clergy 
 would not relieve cases out of their own district. 
 
 182. But supposing a man worked in the City, and slept in Marylebone, 
 and went into the City, and said he had been at work on large works at the 
 Bank of England, which had been stopped, and he was thrown out of work ; 
 are you satisfied that the man would not have got relief upon the spot, and 
 afterwards from you ? I think it would have been very careless if it had 
 happened. 
 
 183. You did not interchange information with the Mansion House Com- 
 mittees 1 I think it might be safely assumed that a man would not be relieved 
 except in his own particular district the district in which he resided. 
 
 184. (Dr. Longstaff) : It was a general principle that the people should be 
 relieved in their own particular district ? Yes. 
 
 185. I take it that you did not hear of any cases where a'man was relieved 
 in two districts ? No. 
 
 186. (Chairman) : You were told that relief was to be chiefly in kind. Did 
 you relieve in kind ? Very little. I was advised by those who were experts in 
 the matter, and they told me that the poor could always make much more of 
 the money than of the ticket. In one or two cases, I made arrangements with 
 the different tradespeople, but I found it better to give the money. We tried to 
 limit the relief to people who could be trusted. The tickets could be sold, you 
 know.
 
 12 
 
 Mr. A. P. 187- (Mr. Allen) : You did not have anything to do with the money given 
 
 riKTciiKii. ^0 Lord Brabazon's Society* ? 150 was spent in Marylebone ? Yes ; I believe 
 June 4, 1886. there was. I had no official knowledge of it. 
 
 188. (Mr. Hedley) : Didn't you have the general feeling in distributing the 
 Mansion House Fund that the money was there, and you must get rid of it 
 somehow ? Well, I should not like to say that no good was done. 1 was very 
 glad when I had done with it. 
 
 189. You would not have liked to have sent back the money because there 
 was no one to receive it ? The unsatisfactory part of it was that one seldom 
 felt sure that one was right in giving. 
 
 190. (Chairman) : Did you ever find out what were the habits of life of the 
 recipients by observing afterwards the business of the public-houses I Was 
 there any depression in that particular industry ] Have you seen a publican 
 and asked him 1 No ; I have not. 
 
 191. Or a butcher ? No. 
 
 192. Or a baker ? No ; my evidence would be worthless upon this question. 
 
 193. Upon the point of food you cannot give evidence as to whether the 
 ' run of teeth ' was less ? No. 
 
 194. (Dr. Longstaff): Did you inquire of the pawnbrokers ? No ; I did not. 
 There was such a hurry-skurry. 
 
 195. The people came in such crowds that you were not able to do justice 
 to the work ? It was impossible. The scrimmage was so fearful sometimes, 
 that I feared that I should have to call in the police to keep order. 
 
 196. You had to make the best of a bad job ? Yes ; as somebody put it, 
 we tried to minimise the evils of the Mansion House Fund. 
 
 197. (Chairman) : You tried to do as little mischief as possible ? We were 
 the almoners of certain moneys, and we tried to administer them with the least 
 injury to the poor. I think I should decline it if I were asked next year, 
 unless with the same object. As the Committee knows, it is always a difficult 
 thing to benefit the poor without running the risk of injuring them. The 
 Mansion House Fund was only a little worse than many other relief agencies. 
 
 198. You don't think there was, in connection with the district, depression in 
 trade the term they made use of to justify the appeal from the Mansion 
 House ? No depression calling for exceptional measures. 
 
 199. Nothing to justify the municipal authority of the greatest city in the 
 world offering to help the people at Marylebone ? Most certainly not, as 
 regards Marylebone. 
 
 MR. R. A. VALPY, examined : 
 
 Mr. n. A. A ALPY. ]yj r Lwh produced a letter received by him in April last, as Secretary of the 
 Charity Organisation Society, from Mr. Valpy, giving a sketch of his proceed- 
 ings with regard to the administration of the Mansion House Fund. 
 
 200. (Chairman) : Mr. Valpy, you are a barrister ? We have your address 
 1 Hare Court, Temple ? You have been in the room the whole of the time 
 during which Mr. Fletcher has been examined ? (Mr. Valpy : Part of the 
 time.) Do you generally agree with the observations he has made as to the 
 usefulness, or the contrary, of the Mansion House Fund ? Generally, I agree 
 with what Mr. Fletcher has stated. 
 
 201. And as to the necessity of it? Speaking generally, I agree with what 
 he haa said. 
 
 202. Did you have some of the forms put in your hands that Mr. Fletcher 
 has referred to } We did. 
 
 203. Any others ? I have got most of the forms I had given me. 
 
 204. Mr. Valpy, are you a member of any Committee ? I am a member of 
 the St. Giles's Committee of the Charity Organisation Society, and have been 
 for many years past. 
 
 205. Were you a member of any of the Sub-Committees of the Mansion 
 House Relief Fund ? As almoner of the Society for the Relief of Distress, I 
 received a preliminary grant of 10. 
 
 206. You were not on the Committee of the Mansion House Fund ? No ; not 
 
 * The Metropolitan Public Gardens Association.
 
 13 
 
 on the Committee itself. 1 was appointed treasurer for the district of St. Mr. n. A. VALPY. 
 Giles's by the Committee in Pall Mall. That is a Sub-Committee of the June4 18gG 
 Mansion House Fund. 
 
 The Chairman here read the letter referred to by Mr. Loch, which was as 
 follows : 
 
 1 HARE COURT, TEMPLE : 
 
 April, 4 1886. 
 
 DEAR MR. LOCH, According to my promise, I send you a short account of the mode 
 of distribution of the Mansion House Grant in my district, that of St. Giles, St. George's 
 Blootnsbury, St. Clement Danes, and Clare Market. You are doubtless aware of the 
 peculiar natiire of the inhabitants, who consist largely of casual labourers about Covent 
 Garden Market, people employed in the various jam and pickle manufactories, seed 
 warehouses, and t.uch like, an employment necessarily precarious, and depending upon the 
 supplies sent to the market. There are also a large number of the lowest class of Irish, 
 builders' and paviours' labourers, painters, and others, who are never regularly employed 
 throughout the year, but who depend on what they make in the busy time for their 
 maintenance during the rest of the year. 
 
 My first intimation of a grant from the fund was, as almoner for the Society for the 
 Relief of Distress, when I received a preliminary grant, with little or no instruction as to 
 dealing with it. I at once communicated with the recipients of other grants in the 
 district, numbering in all seven, and established friendly co-operation with them, with 
 one exception, that of the Rector of St. Clement Danes. The others sent in from time to 
 time lists of cases relieved by them, and thus to a certain extent prevented overlapping. 
 Seeing the great danger of this which existed, I placed the matter before the Sub- 
 Committee at 46A Pall Mall, who asked if I would act as treasurer of the whole grant for 
 my district ; this post I accepted on the condition (which was adhered to) that no other 
 grant should be given to any person except myself, and that they would recognise the 
 Committee which I should form as the only one for the district. I proceeded to form a 
 Committee by simply expanding the Local Charity Organisation Society Committee, 
 adding to it such persons as were thought reliable. This Committee numbered 30, but 
 only 16 or 18 actually gave their services, and of these, 13 were members of the Charity 
 Organisation Society. There were representatives of the clergy of different denomina- 
 tions, of employers of labour, of the Metropolitan Association for Befriending Young 
 Servants, of the Local Sanitary Aid Committee. I failed to obtain the services of any 
 representative of the Board of Guardians, though I requested it, or of any working men. 
 Several district visitors, and visitors of the Strangers' Friendly Society, and others were 
 associated with the Committee as visitors, but it was thought undesirable to accept them 
 as members of the Committee. This was fortunate as it turned out, as I had strong reason 
 to believe that politics scmewhat influenced the anxiety to assist us shown by one or two. 
 The inquiry work undertaken by them proved, as a rule, of little value, and much had to 
 be done over again. I employed, in addition to our own, three extra inquiry agents at 
 salaries of from 25s. to 30s. a week. Two of them will, I think, be of use to the 
 Charity Organisation Society, should their services be required. A Sub-Committee was 
 formed at 28 Betterton Street, where rooms were kindly placed at our disposal by 
 Mr. E. C. Grey for the purpose of dealing with applicants residing south of Great Queen 
 Street, and east of Drury Lane. The Committee at 27 Duke Street dealt with all other 
 applications in the district, and the work thus appeared to be very equally divided. 
 
 In order to relieve the Committees as much as possible, I made an offer to each of the 
 ministers of religion that he should come to me from time to time with a list of cases 
 personally known to him, and vouched for by him as within the object of the fund ; that I 
 should go over such lists with him, and with him consider each case and decide on the 
 amount of relief to be given, and then give him a cheque for the amount required in 
 order that he might personally distribute it. Only four of the clergy availed themselves 
 of this offer, and I have every reason to believe that those so recommended by them were 
 good cases. No investigation by the Charity Organisation Society was made in these 
 cases. All other cases, with a few exceptions, dealt with by myself personally, were 
 disposed of by the ordinary machinery of the Charity Organisation Society, whose 
 principles for the purpose of administering this fund were somewhat relaxed. 
 
 Relief was given in money where thought desirable for weekly relief, adopting the 
 scale used in administrating the relief in East London in 1881 ; for redeeming tools, 
 clothes, &c. required for work ; for buying clothes required for service ; for stock ; 
 for advertising for situations. 
 
 It was as far as possible ascertained that the relief given for the last four purposes 
 was so applied, but in some cases the landlords or the publicans secured the grants. 
 
 In land 
 
 By orders for food on coffee-taverns and dinner kitchens ;
 
 14 
 
 ilr.R.A. VALPY. By orders for soup, bread, and coals ; 
 
 TTuoc ^ v penny dinners at the Coal Yard Board School ; and 
 
 By boots and shoes for children at school. 
 
 We had between 3,000 and 4,000 applications at the office in Duke Street. Many, 
 obviously ineligible, were dismissed at once ; others residing out of the district were 
 referred to the proper quarter. 
 
 About 850 cases were taken down and investigated ; of these, about half were refused, 
 and the rest relieved as above. 
 
 I shall have received altogether about 465 for the relief of them. Five of the 
 clergy received grants amounting to 130, so that probably 600 has been expended in 
 the district. 
 
 I am not able to state at present the number of cases relieved by the clergy, or the 
 mode in which they have distributed their grants ; but, so far as I have been able to 
 ascertain, most have simply given out doles of from 5s. to l each, without much regard 
 to the circumstances of each case. 
 
 It was the opinion of workers in the district that no exceptional distress prevailed till 
 after the first week in March, when, owing to the prolonged severity of the weather 
 retarding building operations and the arrival of flowers and A'egecables at the market, 
 great distress did undoubtedly occur. Some good has been done by enabling a certain 
 number of deserving people to tide over this bad time, by payment of club arrears, by pro- 
 viding the elder girls of families with clothes for, and procuring them, situations, and by 
 providing boots and dinners at school for the younger children ; but very few have been 
 helped in this way. Many families have been kept from semi-starvation by orders for food. 
 
 On the other hand, many evils were apparent. The fund acted as a direct inducement 
 to many .to remain idle. Expectations were raised in many instances of receiving grants 
 of 10 or 15 each, and the expectation of similar appeals to the public in the future 
 necessarily engenders unthrift. There were some cases of men in good employment 
 leaving their work for several hours in order to obtain relief (? by false pretences). One 
 of them is being prosecuted at Bow Street. Complaints were made by employers of 
 labour that men refused work in order to pose as unemployed. 
 
 It is needless to mention, besides, the large amount of imposture and fraud resorted 
 to. Great pressure was put on tenants by landlords for back rent. The plan of distri- 
 bution adopted has, I think, -worked well and easily, but one or two other Sub-Committees 
 would have lightened the work, which has practically been done by about ten or twelve 
 members, working often from 10 A.M. till 7 or 8 P.M. The greatest difficulty would have 
 been found in obtaining suitable offices, and, had it not been for Mr. Grey's kindness in 
 lending us two rooms at his Club, I do not know what we should have done. 
 
 It was remarkable how little the clergy or the relieving officers knew of the great 
 majority of the applicants. Much valuable information would appear to be derivable 
 from the masters and visitors of elementary schools. The cases sent by the Roman 
 Catholic clergy were mostly ineligible. There was a manifest want of co-operation be- 
 tween the local charities, which are numerous, and I fear do much to pauperise. 
 
 I am, however, hopeful of much good in the future by the friendly relations which 
 have been established between some of them and the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 I have somewhat hurriedly put these remarks together, but if suggestions as to the 
 future would be of service, I shall be glad to make them on another occasion. 
 
 Yours very truly, 
 
 E. A. VALPY. 
 
 207. (Mr. Hedley) : I have only one question. When dealing with a case 
 that came before you, did you make any particular length of residence in the 
 district a condition ? As a rule, we refused to relieve any unless they had 
 resided at least six or eight weeks in the district two months, as a rule. 
 
 208. A person living in a common lodging-house would have been treated 
 as eligible ? As a rule, no. A few cases of people living in common lodging- 
 houses we relieved under very exceptional circumstances. As a rule, we refused 
 to relieve any living in common lodging-houses. 
 
 209. (Dr. Longstaff) : Did you find cases vouched for by people, in whose 
 word ordinarily you would have perfect confidence, thoroughly deserving good 
 cases or not ? I cannot answer that question, as you put it, in the affirmative. 
 It depended very much upon who the people were. Some people, who could 
 most thoroughly be trusted ordinarily, are on these occasions most unreliable. 
 
 210. There was a statement in one of the letters to the Press at the time 
 that a Committee in some part of London did its work admirably, because no 
 case was relieved except upon the personal recommendation of a clergyman,
 
 15 
 
 district visitor, or city missionary. Would your experience lead you all other Mr. R. A. VALPY. 
 things put on one side to consider that the strong recommendation of the 
 
 , Ilr T j_ j. -i ' a* i , June 4, Inob. 
 
 clergyman, district visitor, or city missionary was sufficient ground to go upon ; 
 Certainly not. 
 
 211. Another point. Have you found that any considerable proportion of 
 the cases relieved were members of clubs I I have been endeavouring to get 
 statistics upon that point, but have not been able to do so yet. Very few of 
 them belonged to thoroughly good clubs very few, indeed. There was a 
 singular want of evidence of thrift in that way. A great number of them, 
 especially the Irish, belonged to burial clubs. 
 
 212. Had you any other distinct evidence that you came into contact with a 
 superior class of working-men, who were vouched for by superior members of 
 their own class 1 I cannot say I had. The only superior working-men I came 
 across I found out myself with very great difficulty ; also by going to the clergy, 
 and getting an account of what they needed, and going myself to see them. 
 They would not come forward on account of the crowd of ragamuffins assembled 
 round the office every day. 
 
 213. Did you relieve many people known to be, and to have been, for 
 a long time total abstainers I We relieved a certain number of these. Wo 
 always took that as evidence in their favour. 
 
 214. Did you accept the man's statement that he was a total abstainer 1 Not 
 necessarily. We came across a few. They generally brought their cards, or 
 some book ; or we found out from references, as a rule, whether they were 
 total abstainers. 
 
 215. Did you relieve much in kind 1 As far as my recollection serves me, 
 I spent about 110 or 120 in kind. I received myself 450, and expended 
 about one-third in. kind. 
 
 216. (Mr. Allen) : In your district the chief people, I think, are general 
 labourers and people employed in Covent Garden I Yes. 
 
 217. Not skilled labourers 1 No ; there are very few skilled labourers, 
 so far as I know. (The map was here referred to, to show the position and 
 extent of the district, and Mr. Valpy explained that last year the St. Giles's 
 Charity Organisation Committee took over, as part of their area, part of the 
 Strand Union, viz., the parish of St. Clement Danes and the district of Clare 
 Market.) Nonr we come right down to the river, I don't think we had any 
 cases south of the Strand. A large proportion of our cases came from Clare 
 Market. 
 
 218. These fellows were dependent upon work in Covent Garden '1 A large 
 number of the people in the district are dependent upon Covent Garden. 
 
 219. And are always out of work at that time of year 1 Not necessarily. 
 They hang about the market and pick up, perhaps, one or two shillings a day. 
 The supply of vegetables of course depends upon the weather. 
 
 220. Did you inquire from pawnbrokers as to the amount of distress 1 No ; 
 judging from the pawntickets, those individuals who applied to us had largely 
 pawned. 
 
 221. Do you know whether there was an exceptional amount of pawning II 
 don't know. 
 
 222. (Dr. Lonystaff) : Have you any general impression that the pawning 
 was recent -when the pinch came ? It appeared to me, from the tickets I saw, 
 that the pawning had been general all through the winter. There is a class of 
 people who are habitually pawning. 
 
 223. Did you verify the pawntickets 1 No ; we did not. 
 
 224. They might easily have been passed from one applicant to another ? 
 That is quite possible. We did not verify them, except in a few cases where we 
 thought it necessary to redeem tools and clothing from pawn. The agent went 
 to see that the things were in pawn, and the cases all proved right. 
 
 225. Were you in communication with the relieving officer ? Yes ; in daily 
 communication with the relieving officer. I was away in South Wales part of 
 the time, and whenever I came back to the office and found the agents were 
 not in communication with the relieving officer, I insisted upon it. 
 
 226. Would you recommend another Mansion House Fund being raised 
 another winter ? Not in the form it was put before the public this year.
 
 16 
 
 Mr.K.A.VALTY. 227. (Chairman) : In what form? I have an idea that a permanent relief 
 June 4 1886 committee might very well be. formed. The Mansion House would naturally 
 be selected, and the Lord Mayor, for the time being, might be the head of it. 
 
 228. (Mr. Allen) : Do you think a relief fund necessary ? It may or may not 
 be necessary. I should have a permanent committee, to be in touch with every- 
 body all over London. 1 should leave the appeal to be made on their re- 
 commendation only ; and not at the instance of the Lord Mayor himself. 
 
 229. (Hon. and JRev. Canon Legge) : Would you propose that the Committee 
 should employ its own organisation or existing organisations in the distribu- 
 tion ? I think it should very largely employ existing organisations. There is 
 no better organisation than the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 230. You said that most of the applicants were unknown to the clergy and 
 relieving officers. Did the cases come from the class not in the habit of seek- 
 ing relief, or not under regular visitation \ It is a peculiar district in this 
 way. There are a large number of places of entertainment, eating-houses, and 
 those sort of places, and these people exist very largely upon the broken victuals 
 from these places in times of distress. They rely upon this, and do not apply 
 to the guardians. They came to us in large numbers. 
 
 231. Do the St. Giles's Guardians issue lists of persons in receipt of relief ? 
 I don't know. The Rector of St. Clement Danes did not co-operate. 
 
 232. Did he give any reason ? No ; he received a grant, I think, of 50. 
 He gave out doles of 5s. to 10s. each to different people. We used to send 
 down to him begging for lists of the people he relieved, in order that we might 
 not relieve the same individuals ; but he never gave a list. 
 
 233. It was not the relief he objected to, but the organisation ? I don't know 
 what he objected to. He gave some relief. He had money for the purpose. 
 
 234. (Mr. Holland) : Did you take any steps to get working men upon the 
 Committee ? I tried to get working men on the Committee. One or two pro- 
 mised. There was a working man engaged at the British Museum an 
 excellent man, whom I knew a good deal about from Mrs. Poole but he could 
 not attend. 
 
 235. Did you try to get any members of friendly societies ? I am not aware 
 that any friendly society has its headquarters in our district. 
 
 236. But there are branches ? I went to so many people to get co-operation ; 
 I meant to have gone to them, but did not do so. 
 
 237. I rather gather from you that the machinery of the Charity Organisation 
 .Society, when strengthened as you strengthened it, is sufficient for the purpose 
 of investigating cases I In a district like ours, I think it is. It would have to 
 be very largely strengthened in a large district in a district like Clapham or 
 Wandsworth. 
 
 238. You had three more inquiry officers, who dealt with these 3,000 or 4,000 
 applications that you received 1 No ; 850 cases were taken down and investi- 
 gated, the rest were rejected. They were simply cases that were obviously 
 ineligible. A great number resided in other districts. A great number came 
 from St. Pancras. 
 
 239. Did you find the rules issued by the Mansion House Fund of any use 
 in the distribution ? I drew up a set of rules very similar myself. I did not 
 receive those rules until a week cr ten days after the distribution began. 
 
 240. Did they go pretty well on all fours with those rules ? I think they did. 
 
 241. I gather that you consider that the fund was of use in touching cases 
 that would not have been touched by the ordinary relief agencies ? 1 think 
 it was. I have found from experience that the ordinary relief agencies are not 
 available when there is a pressure of cases. 
 
 242. (Mr. Hedley) : You don't include the Poor Law ? No ; my opinion of 
 the Poor Law is, that it should deal with a different class of people people who 
 are already paupers. The ordinary charities ought to try to deal with a different 
 class of people, to prevent them becoming paupers. I remember, I think it 
 was two or three years ago, when the demolition of buildings first began for 
 the new street, Shaftesbury Avenue the part towards Endell Street is in my 
 district the demolitions for the purpose of making the Avenue caused very 
 great hardship to several of the small shopkeepers, who depended for their living 
 upon the people inhabiting the old slums, and a good many came for relief.
 
 17 
 
 Several of the cases were thought very desirable to be relieved out of the funds Mr. R. A. V.AXPY. 
 of the Society for the Relief of Distress. I applied for a further grant my j 4 188G 
 first grant being expended and they told me that they had no further funds 
 at their disposal. We met these cases through private friends of mine. 
 
 243. Might not these cases have been met by the various relief agencies, in a 
 time of pressure, issuing their own appeals to get their hands strengthened I Is 
 it necessary to have a central appeal bringing applications from all quarters ? 
 If you can secure the harmonious co-operation of all the different agencies, 
 which is impossible. They are generally antagonistic, and will not work to- 
 gether. Each wants to go its own way, and has its own faith, and from this 
 you have overlapping. 
 
 244. You are accepting the principle of a central appeal. Do you think 
 there should be a particular fund ? Don't you think it would be enough, if the 
 appeal came from the Mansion House, to strengthen the ordinary charities 1 
 I think one or two of the charities the Charity Organisation Society, the 
 Society for the Relief of Distress, and the Metropolitan Visiting and Relief 
 Association take these three, and strengthen their hands, and, I think, it would 
 be perfectly possible to deal with any ordinary exceptional distress, unless there 
 is any very great distress indeed something much greater than last year. 
 
 245. (Chairman) : Was inquiry made as to whether there was any need for 
 the fund on the score of exceptional distress ? Canon Nisbet called a meeting 
 of all those receiving grants from the fund and others at the vestry. I 
 explained to the meeting that I had been appointed treasurer and sole repre- 
 sentative of the fund in the district, and that no other grants would be made 
 there, except to me. At the close of the meeting, Canon Nisbet asked the 
 opinion of everybody round the room as to whether there was any exceptional 
 distress, and, I think, everyone said there was no exceptional distress. 
 
 246. Were the persons in the room employers of labour ? Did they refer to 
 their books and see what they were paying weekly as wages 1 Were the bulk 
 of them employers ? The bulk of them, I think, were clergymen and church- 
 wardens. There were two or three guardians. 
 
 247. Did you, or anybody on your behalf, go to the employers of labour in 
 your district, and ask them to give you this simple information How much 
 are you paying out a week now for wages ? No ; I did not do that. I went to 
 several employers of labour and asked their opinion. 
 
 248. You never put the question Would you look at your labour account 
 and tell me how much you paid away in labour last week, or this week, and 
 compare it with what you have paid at other times ? I did not. 
 
 249. Does not that appear to you obviously the best test ? -I think io 
 would be. 
 
 250. If you got hold of the large employers. 
 
 251. (Mr. Hedley) : You would not get hold of the small shopkeepers. 
 
 252. (Chairman) : We have got out in evidence that the fund was for handi- 
 craft people. 
 
 253. ( Witness) : That was only Mr. Fletcher's view. My view is different. 
 
 254. There was mention in your letter of a society that distributed some 
 money, the Strangers' Friend Society, and that you thought that their politics 
 entered into it ? My remark did not apply to them. There were various 
 people who came forward ; some were very keen, indeed, to help us ; they were 
 very anxious to suck me, and to get hold of money if they could. From con- 
 versations I had with some of the unemployed, I had strong reason to believe 
 that they wished to favour especially some of their own supporters. 1 made 
 inquiries afterwards, and found that these people were very active political 
 partisans in the district. 
 
 255. You said you did communicate with the relieving officers. Did you 
 with the vestry clerks, or the persons who distributed the City Parochial Charities 
 in the district ? I am not aware of any City Parochial Charities in the 
 district. 
 
 256. You are not a^rare that in St. Clement Danes there is a considerable 
 fund for the assistance of deserving servants out of employment ? No. 
 
 257. Did it never occur to you to see what public money there was in the
 
 18 
 
 Mr. R.A.VALPY. district? I have here a list of all the charities of the district, so far as I was 
 
 them. 
 
 June 4 1886. 
 
 258. You did communicate with the Poor Law people, but not with the 
 
 parochial charities ? Of course you would not be within the City there ? I 
 communicated with the local charities with those who had the distribution 
 of them. 
 
 259. You did communicate with them ? Yes, as far as possible. 
 
 260. Did you ever assist any cases that were being relieved by the Poor 
 Law ? Not that I am aware of. The cases being relieved by the Poor Law are 
 mostly cases of thoroughly chronic distress, which it would have been perfectly 
 useless to try to assist. The relieving officer sent up two or three cases, but we 
 refused to help them. 
 
 261. (Mr. Hedley) : Did you relieve chronic cases ? No ; we did not; we 
 referred them as much as possible to the clergy. No doubt, we did relieve a 
 few chronic cases, but not purposely. We discovered them afterwards. 
 
 262. (Chairman) : Did you take the word ' deserving' into account, or did 
 you think that the requirements of the case were satisfied if a man in distress 
 could prove that he was unemployed, though his character might be anything 
 but satisfactory ? Did you inquire into character ? A man of that kind I 
 should be inclined to help unless he was a notorious character a regular thief. 
 If I had reason to believe that he would apply the money to the support of his 
 family, I would relieve him, certainly. I would rather relieve him in kind. 
 
 263. Do you think that the establishment of the fund, and its continuance for 
 the length of time it was in existence, disturbed the labour market, and dis- 
 couraged people from seeking for work ? Did it interfere with the relations 
 between master and servant? I have no doubt about it. It acted as an 
 inducement to a large number of people to remain out of work. Expectations 
 were raised that the people would get as much as 10 or 15 each. 
 
 264. People purposely remained out of work ? More people would have been 
 at work if the fund had not been established 1 It withdrew people from the 
 labour market ? To a certain degree. I did hear that tradesmen were com- 
 plaining that people would not come and work. 
 
 265. You don't employ any hands yourself ? You didn't find it affect any 
 person you paid, so that they, or any of their relations, had to work for less 
 money 1 No ; I know nothing of that kind. 
 
 266. Did you have any statements from masters and employers that you were 
 interfering with the relations between labour and the employer ? I had no 
 communication with them myself on this point. Some members of the Com- 
 mittee did communicate with employers of labour, who stated that they had 
 great difficulty in getting hands. 
 
 267. Could you give us the name of any large employer of labour in the 
 district who would come and give evidence ? I will make inquiries. 
 
 268. (Mr. Loch) : I think you said you relieved by tickets in certain in- 
 stances ? They were given on the Windmill Street Soup Kitchen and Canon 
 Nisbet's Soup Kitchen in Endell Street. In cases of extreme poverty and 
 distress, I gave interim relief in the shape of dinner-tickets. To those cases 
 which it was undesirable to relieve in money, I gave these dinner-tickets and 
 soup-tickets. I found that the tickets were being sold in the public-houses. 
 Tickets worth 7d. apiece, providing sufficient food for two grown-up people, 
 were being sold at the rate of three for a shilling. A friend of mine saw in a 
 shop in the district, ' Mansion House Tickets Bought Here,' and inducements 
 were held out by small shopkeepers and the publicans to get the people to sell 
 these tickets. I adopted this card (produced and read by the Chairman). I 
 largely employed the Coffee-Tavern Company ; I was told that the tradesmen 
 were unreliable, and that they gave money to the people in exchange for the 
 tickets instead of food. We found that they could not sell the ticket I had 
 adopted. 
 
 269. (Chairman') : You found the little] shopkeepers combining with the 
 holder of the ticket to defraud ? I have no direct evidence of that. I think 
 I can bring evidence as to the sale of the tickets in the public-houses. 
 
 270. (Mr. Loch) : Did you say you referred chronic cases to the clergy ? Did 
 they deal with them out of the moneys they received as grants from the Mansion
 
 19 
 
 House Fund ? I found some of the clergy strongly inclined to do so, and I Mr. R. A. VALPY. 
 represented to them that it was not the object of the fund. T 7~7 S sr 
 
 271. While you were refusing to relieve them, you referred them to the clergy 
 who did it ? I cannot say that 1 found the clergy had been relieving numerous 
 chronic cases. I did leave some chronic cases to two or three of the clergy 
 with whom I was in friendly co-operation, and they said, ' We will not relieve 
 the cases out of the Mansion House Fund, but out of the parochial funds.' 
 
 272. (Mr. Hedley) : Did you give weekly allowances when you had decided 
 to grant money to an applicant ? Sometimes we gave a lump sum to buy stock, 
 and sometimes weekly allowances, as stated in my letter to Mr. Loch. 
 
 (The Committee then adjourned.) 
 
 FRIDAY, JUNE HTH, 1886. 
 
 Present MR. F. J. S. EDGCOMBE, and subsequently MR. ALBERT PELL, 
 
 in the Chair. 
 
 Sir JOHN TILLEY, Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD, 
 
 Dr. G. B. LONGSTAFF, Mr. J. H. ALLEN, 
 
 Mr. E. PETERS. 
 
 Mr. R. HEDLEY, attending on behalf of the Local Government Board. 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 MR. J. R. J. BRAMLY, examined. 
 
 273. (Chairman) : What district do you represent, Mr. Bramly ? Lewisham }ir. J. n. j. 
 civil parish. BRAMLY. 
 
 274. Is that the whole parish ? No ; the parish is a very large one ; it j nne n ISG. 
 extends up to the Crystal Palace. We go up to Catforcl. 
 
 275. About what population I I could ascertain and let you have that, 
 but I do not know. 
 
 276. You have some defined limit to your district? The parish is divided 
 into six distinct poor groups. 
 
 277. Your district is that of the Society for Relief of Distress, or the civil 
 parish? (The Secretary here referred witness to a map.) Witness (pointing- 
 to map) : Our district is practically from here to Catford. 
 
 278. (Cliairman) : When you talk of your district to-day, you speak as 
 representing the Mansion House Fund ? Yes. 
 
 279. Now, who set out that district ? We did, with the consent of the 
 Central Committee at Greenwich. 
 
 280. You were a sub-division of the Mansion House Fund 1 Yes ; we sent 
 to say that we could not cover the whole of it. 
 
 281. Had you any previous experience ? No special experience. I am 
 the Hon. Secretary to the Lewisham Charity Organisation Committee. 
 
 282. You are not a guardian of the poor I No. 
 
 283. What first moved you to act? Who first introduced you to the Mansion 
 House Fund ? We had summoned a special Committee of the Charity Organisa- 
 tion Society to consider what steps we should take to meet the distress. 
 
 284. Did you communicate with the Mansion House Fund first ? No ; the 
 Rev. Brooke Lambert came up from Greenwich and produced a telegram from 
 the Lord Mayor, asking him to form a Committee for the district, and he moved 
 that we should form ourselves into a Committee. The clergy refused to be 
 almoners. 
 
 285. What date ? February 13. 
 
 286. On February 1, or thereabouts, had any circumstances come under your 
 notice to lead you to believe that there was exceptional distress 1 No. 
 
 287. Between February 1 and February 13 ? I am not talking of rumours ; 
 but, from your own experience and observation in that part of London, 
 did you come to the opinion that there was an exceptional state of distress 1
 
 20 
 
 Mr J n j -^ ' there was more distress, but not so exceptional as the newspapers 
 BUAMLY. made out. 
 j - 288. More than usual in winter ? Yes. 
 
 289. But winter has, or ought to have, come to a conclusion ? Yes ; but it 
 has been a very long winter. 
 
 290. But you thought that during the winter there had been more distress 
 than usual ? Yes. 
 
 291. Do you think there was enough to justify an appeal to the public ? Not 
 in Lewisham. We summoned this Committee to see how it best could be met. 
 We thought that we ourselves, plus existing Church agencies, or the parochial 
 authorities, could meet it. 
 
 292. I will just go through this letter.* You had application forms printed, 
 which were issued to members of the Committee to distribute I We did not 
 print those forms. A Sub- Committee was formed by the Central Mansion 
 House Committee at Greenwich. 
 
 293. How were they issued ? They were sent in large bundles to the clergy. 
 
 294. But I think that you said that the clergy refused to be almoners '. 
 Yes ; but they issued the application forms through the district visitors. 
 
 295. Did you see anything of advertisements in the local papers did you see 
 any advertisements ? No. 
 
 296. Did you issue any advertisements ? No ; it spread like wildfire, before 
 the application forms went out. On the Saturday night, at the meeting of the 
 Charity Organisation Society, which subsequently became the Relief Com- 
 mittee, when the meeting had practically broken up, a member got up and 
 proposed that he should have 50 put at his command 1'50 or 25, I forget 
 which for immediate distribution. I opposed that as strongly as I could. 
 The irregular motion was however agreed to, with some dissentients, of whom 
 I was one. 
 
 297. That was 50 of the Mansion House money ? Yes ; part of that Avas 
 distributed unwisely. 
 
 298. Did he get the money? He spent it before he got it. 
 
 299. But it was refunded ? In all 25 was spent before the formation of the 
 
 * A. letter from Mr. Bratnly to the Secretary of the Charity Organisation Society, 
 which was submitted to the Committee, is referred to. It was as follows: 
 
 LKWISHAM COMMITTEE, 
 
 H'.GII STUEET, LEWISHAM, S.E. : 
 
 nth March, 1886. 
 
 DEAR MR. LOCH, As the Lewisham Branch of the Mansion House Fund closes its 
 doors on the 2-lth inst., after an existence of thirty-four days, and as no new experience 
 is likely to be gained during the next and last week, it may be well to send you a short 
 account of its work to date. 
 
 You are aware that the Rev. Brooke Lambert attended a spocial meeting of this 
 Committee on Saturday the 13th ult., with a request that a Committee should be formed 
 in Lewisham to deal with the Mansion House Fund. The persons present were there- 
 upon formed into such a Committee, with power to add to their number. Mr. Cleeve, a 
 Guardian, and myself were opposed to the proposal, as the need did not seem sufficiently 
 pressing our idea being that existing local agencies should receive from the Greenwich 
 Committee such sums as they might deem necessary to meet the distress, which, though 
 much exaggerated, is certainly greater than during several previous winters. 
 
 1. Composition of Committee : 
 
 (a) Ministers of all denominations, 
 
 (b) Leading persons interested in charitable works, 
 (e) Working men, 
 
 (d) Employers of labour, 
 
 (e) Two foremen of Messrs. Penn's, 
 One small coal dealer, 
 
 One working shoemaker, 
 and these attended very regularly. 
 
 In one part of the district a Working Men's Committee was formeJ under the Vicar, 
 Rev. W. A. Moberly. and every application from that district was submitted to it 
 previous to decision by Executive Committee. A Working Men's Committee was also 
 formed in one part of St. Mary's, but speedily dissolved. 
 
 The Hon. Sees, (two) are both Charity Organisation Society folk, and I have attended 
 the greater part of every day.
 
 21 
 
 Committee which commenced work on February 19 that is between February Mr. J. R. j. 
 13 and February 19 but this irregular expenditure was stopped after February 
 17 great dissatisfaction having arisen, as was foreseen, through relief being June 11, 1886. 
 given in one portion of the district, while none was obtainable in the other 
 portions. The homes of the clergy were besieged and much annoyance expe- 
 rienced by them. 
 
 300. As soon as these forms got out, the eagles began to flock to the carcass 1 
 Yes ; on the 19th was the first meeting the forms were sent out on the 17th. 
 There was a direction exhibited to put them into a large box at the gate of the 
 house. We did not want them to come trooping up to the Committee-room. 
 
 301. What was done with the forms? Did you ever appoint any staff of 
 almoners ? Yes. 
 
 302. Did you appoint them 1 Who undertook the office ? The names of a 
 few are given in the Mansion House Committee's Report. One was a head- 
 gardener. But we were very short of almoners. 
 
 303. (Rev, W. Curtis Hayward) : Did the clergy refuse to act ? Only as al- 
 moners. 
 
 304. (Chairman) : The clergy took no part in the distribution of the alms ? 
 No ; but they took a very leading part in the Committee meetings. We had 
 two Committee meetings a day, and it rarely happened that one or more of the 
 clergy did not attend. They would not become the channels for giving the 
 money, but they knew the people who were their parishioners, and we got a 
 great deal of valuable information from them. 
 
 305. These gentlemen you got to act as almoners were, as I gather from 
 what you have said, rather below the middle station in society ? Only two 
 of them. 
 
 308. What were the others manufacturers, builders, and so forth ? No ; 
 ladies and gentlemen. 
 
 307. Is it not more correct to say that they were ladies with only two ex- 
 ceptions ? No. The female almoners were ladies, without exception. 
 
 308. I "have only the names of two gentlemen Mr. Bates and Mr. 
 Ken ward? But there were several others. 
 
 309. Well, then, the labour test was first of all adopted. That broke down 
 because it barred the man getting relief who had gone into the workhouse. 
 
 The Executive meb twice a day, the first meeting, by order from Greenwich, being 
 held on the morning of February 1 9. 
 
 2. District : 
 
 Lewisham civil parish, less Sydenham and Forest Hill. A glance at the map 
 will show how much ground had to be covered in inquiry and relief -Catford, 
 Brockley, Loats Pits, Loampit Vale, Hither Green, and Lewisham proper. 
 
 3. Procedure : 
 
 Application forms (drafted at Greenwich lopy enclosed) were issued to the 
 various ministers, and were also to be had at the office, Court Hill Road. 
 Those from Loats Pits were sent to the Working Men's Committee ; the others 
 were taken by members of Committee, verified as far as possible, and brought 
 up for decision at the next meeting. Local references have been referred to, 
 and, in some cases, those at a distance. 
 
 The Rules were only received after some days, and we commenced to work on 
 those (copy included) a rough draft of which I showed you at the Mansion House, and 
 which were read to and tacitly approved of by the Central Committee, Greenwich, on 
 the 16th February. 
 
 The issue of the Mansion House Rules landed us in one difficulty i.e., that we had 
 made the labour-yard a test, offering to supplement wages according to family, Several 
 men on this had gone in, and the Rules cut them off from participation in the Fund. The 
 Committee felt the injustice of this, and finally decided to take deserving men out of the 
 yard and maintain them until work presented itself. On two occasions a considerable 
 crowd of men at work in labour-yard came to the office to complain of the injustice of 
 treating them worse than those who were standing about with their hands in their 
 pockets. A deputation of three were sent up to the Lord Mayor to plead their own 
 cause, and the result was, practically, a free hand to us to treat them as we liked. Our 
 decision was to take the best men out as detailed above. 
 
 By arrangement with the Lewisham Board of Works a labour test was started last 
 week. A selected list of men was sent to the Surveyor for work, which would be no 
 
 D
 
 22 
 
 Mr. J. E. J. Then there was another labour test seven hours' work for 2s. Gd. 1 Yes ; only 
 Bl!AM " ' about 75 was expended on it. It was useful to a certain extent, because some 
 June 11, issG. refused the 2s. Gd. 
 
 310. There were 144 offered this relief upon test, and only 50 accepted. Was 
 there room for more than 50 ? No ; but the 50 men were only reached when 
 we had offered it to 144. We had to offer it to 144 before we could get the 50. 
 Two-thirds refused it. We could not have taken more than 50, but there were 
 a good many more than 144 to be asked. 
 
 311. Is this the case, that the labour test proved that a great many persons 
 were applying for relief who really did not want it ? Did not want it so badly 
 as to be content to accept 2s. Gd. a day. 
 
 312. As to be content to accept it on the terms of 2s. Gd. a day ? When it 
 was offered to them, they went out grumbling ' Half-a-crown a day ! Washer- 
 women's pay ! ' 
 
 313. Do you think the Mansion House Fund got into these people's hands 
 in any other way ? Could they get at it except through you ? Quite impossible. 
 
 314. With the exception of the clergyman, whose case was referred to, you 
 say there was no other mode ? No. 
 
 315. The applicants, you say in your letter, consisted of bricklayers and 
 plasterers and gardeners what I call non-winter men. I suppose they were 
 not exclusively of those classes ? The report gave an analysis. 
 
 316. (After reading a clause in the report.) So that 50 per cent, were dis- 
 tinctly connected with the building trade.* Then 34 per cent, were labourers. 
 
 relief of the rates, to be paid at the rate of 2s. Gd. per day of seven hours. To date, 144 
 men have been offered this, and 50 have accepted. No more can be taken on. 
 
 The Committee, feeling that many of the applicants were not suited to such work, 
 passed a resolution to offer it to every man, but not to press the test home in cases of 
 skilled workmen who had not been in the labour-yard. 
 
 "!5 has been granted for Ihis work. The ahnoning has been done by Committee 
 and by volunteers the clergy have taken no part in it. 
 
 Intending emigrants have been maintained, as the Colonial agents refuse those 
 families any member of which have received parish relief. 
 
 Relief has been according to scale, and given for seven days. 
 
 ' Renewed application ' forms have been issued. 
 
 No fresh application has been received since March 6, inclusive. 
 
 I sent you in some weeks ago a sketch of distress in this neighbourhood, as far as 
 could hastily be obtained, and I do not think the results of the FUIH! have falsified it. 
 
 The applicants, as a rule, have been those who have generally little or no employment 
 during winter months bricklayers, plasterers, painters, jobbing gardeners ; but the 
 work that those connected with the building trade have had during last summer has at 
 the best been intermittent, and the pawnbrokers' testimony that the people have not been 
 able to take out the things they put in last winter, 1884-O, is confirmed by the evidence 
 of the application forms. "We find pawn-tickets to the value of several pounds in nearly 
 every case. 
 
 We deferred dealing with these until the applicants were in work, but our funds 
 will evidently not allow us to take out even a very small proportion of clothing and tools. 
 We have redeemed in a very few cases tools on written evidence of employment, and 
 in a very few others, difficult to help in other ways, clothing. 
 
 Arrears of clubs have been paid, and boots (over 200 pairs) have been given to 
 children whose parents are not in receipt of parish relief, on the recommendation of 
 teachers. On the whole the fund has been fairly administered, and few glaring cases been 
 relieved. Still some, no doubt, have received relief who were not entitled to it as far as 
 character is concerned. We have of course heard the usual tale of the wrong persons 
 getting it, and have tried to fix the informant, so as to verify the statement, but little 
 has come of it. We hear of much dissatisfaction ; but that is inevitable, and from 
 some quarters it implies compliment. Our Agent has devoted himself from early 
 morning to late at night to the work we have been admirably served by him and by 
 his brother. I am, yours truly. 
 
 J. R. J. BBAMLY. 
 
 * The analysis is as follows : Labourers, 93 ; carpenters, 30 ; painters, plumbers, 
 paper-hangers, &c., 62 ; gas-fitters, 4 ; gardeners, IS ; clerks, 6 ; plasterers, 19 ; brick- 
 layers and brickmakers, 36 ; carmen, 9 ; stonemasons, 3 ; sawyer. 1 ; drillers, 2 ; 
 stoker, 1 ; shoemakers, 3 ; engine-fitters, 6 ; other occupations net included in foregoing 
 trades, 9 8. Total 321. No. of applications, 474.
 
 28 
 
 May I not take it that half of these were dependent on the building trade ? Mr. .T. r,. jr. 
 Yes ; ground-men they call them. 
 
 317. Then, gardeners of course they were frozen out ? Have you yourself jime n, issc. 
 any knowledge of what is paid to the excavator ? A few years ago it was (Hd an 
 
 hour, but now a painter does not get much more than that. 
 
 318. This is a very curious thing ; these are all engaged in one trade where 
 men must fairly calculate on not being able to work in winter ; and, even 
 among the other classes, there are, for instance, stonemasons. Was the distress 
 greater amongst artisans than amongst gardeners, ground-men, etc., whose 
 usual pay would be less than 5s. a day I No. I think there was more distress 
 amongst the class earning 5s. a day than the others, though the analysis 
 scarcely shows this, I admit. You must consider that in our neighbourhood, 
 besides the silk mills and a cigar factory, there is practically nothing else but 
 building. 
 
 319. You refer in your letter to pawn-tickets 1 You had the sanction of the 
 Mansion House Fund for getting out of pawn some tools ? Do you take it as 
 one of the circumstances of life in your neighbourhood that the people should 
 be intimately acquainted with pawn-shops ? I think so in ours. 
 
 320. Do you think it natural for men, whose pay is 9d. an hour, or an 
 excavator, whose pay is (id. an hour, natural that they should have their tools 
 in pawn ? But they don't get those wages now. 
 
 321. Men are working for me at the West-end of London, and the builder, 
 under whom they work, and whom I employ, assures me that he has to pay 
 men Qd. an hour. If you can correct me, if you can tell me that that was not 
 the pay in 1885, I should be glad to put that down ? We have one very large 
 builder down there. 
 
 322. Have you heard, or did your Committee make any inquiries, among the 
 employers of labour as to the cases ? Did you ask them whether they had been 
 paying a less amount of money during the year, or less per hour ? Was any 
 inquiry of that sort made ? No, not directly. There was no time for all these 
 things. The public cried out for immediate distribution. 
 
 323. Don't you think, upon reflection, it would have been doing better 
 service to the public if you had resisted acceptance of this money from the 
 Mansion House Fund until you had satisfied yourselves that you could distribute 
 it without doing injury to society, as you find it around you ? Am I right in 
 considering that you distributed it without time for inquiry ? No, not exactly. 
 The meeting of the Charity Organisation Society was held for the purpose of 
 dealing with the extra, though not exceptional, distress, but we did not think 
 that the Mansion House Fund was the best way of dealing with it. We could 
 not help taking it, for it was forced upon us. 
 
 324. You thought you could make it as little mischievous as possible ? 
 Yes. 
 
 325. You have told us that, until the Mansion House Fund was discharged 
 upon you, you did not know of the exceptional distress ? Not to the extent 
 reported in the papers. 
 
 326. Do you think that the Mansion House Fund was the cause of tho 
 declaration of distress 1 Yes ; many who would not otherwise have applied for 
 relief came for it then. 
 
 327. Would you yourself expect that bricklayers and plasterers, and the men 
 dependent upon them, should be at work in the winter ? No ; unless the winter 
 was more or less open, as it is sometimes. 
 
 328. As a fact, frost coming would prevent building ? Yes. 
 
 329. It is not quite as certain that a plasterer should fail of work as that a 
 haymaker should fail of work ? I don't think it is so certain as regards 
 plasterers ; a certain amount of work has been carried on all this winter. 
 
 330. Did you make any inquiry at the savings banks as to the withdrawal 
 of funds 1 No ; but when I sent in a report before the Mansion House Fund, I 
 said I had seen the relieving officers and other people, from whom I learned 
 that there was nothing indicating exceptional distress. Provident societies and 
 savings banks were increasing their members ; and the same with building 
 societies. 
 
 331 . Did you go to the savings bank ? Excepting those managed by the 
 
 D 2
 
 24 
 
 Mr. J. B. J. clergy, we have no independent savings bank no savings bank beyond the 
 BRAMLY. 
 
 June 11, 1886. 332. Should you be in favour of any preparation against the recurrence of 
 
 distress 1 I have hoped that something would be done to meet it. The raga- 
 muffin section fully expect another Mansion House Fund next winter. For the 
 last few weeks of winter they paraded the streets with boxes, and levied black- 
 mail on the public. An attempt was made to stop the proceeding. The question 
 was asked in the House of Commons, but Government declined to interfere. 
 
 333. Were they threatening ? No ; but it was just after the smashing of 
 windows in London, and people gave their money to prevent that. 
 
 334. Would you tell the Committee what steps you would suggest should be 
 taken with reference to a distress that you might anticipate to appear again 
 whether real or feigned ? 
 
 335. (Mr. Hedley) : Beyond the existence of the Poor Law ? If the money- 
 giving public get it into their head that there is distress, they will not be satis- 
 tied with the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 336. That is putting it hypothetically. I want to know whether you have 
 any suggestion to make 'I Do you think you ought in October to endeavour 
 to make inquiries ? I think it would be a wise thing to do, but it is still more 
 important to know what we shall do when we know that there is distress. 
 
 337. (Rev. W. G. Hayward) : Have you any almoners of the Society for the 
 Relief of Distress ? No ; we have not. 
 
 338. (Chairman) : You have no definite scheme that you would like to submit 
 to the Committee ? No ; I came up for light more than anything else. 
 
 339. Do you feel that you can rely upon the Poor Law machinery as sufficient 
 to prevent anything serious anything that could be fairly entitled to be called 
 human suffering 1 No ; I think we shall very likely have more than the Poor 
 Law can deal with, and I don't know that extra funds entrusted to parochial 
 agency would be wise. I mean the distribution of charity through the clergy. 
 I don't know that it would be wise for the district visitors to have it. 
 
 340. Was any reference made in the pulpits to this terrible state of destitu- 
 tion ? No, nothing, as far as I am aware ; there were appeals for money, but 
 not for personal service, as far as I am aware. 
 
 341 . Do you know of any instance in the Lewisham district in which one or 
 more persons really themselves distributed, and went among their neighbours 
 to render assistance, apart from any society I In regard to exceptional help, no ; 
 our ground is not like London ; there is not a dense population. I do not 
 think it necessary. 
 
 342. Did you ever receive any letters from any parishioner saying, ' I hope 
 you will look up the case of So-and-So, in such a place, where I knaw there is 
 serious suffering existing, and who ought to be assisted, apart from the question 
 of character ? ' No ;. not as far as my memory serves me. 
 
 343. Then it was a general claim for help by the members of a special trade, 
 met by a portion of the Mansion House Fund ? 
 
 344. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : You said that these clergymen, as members of the 
 Mansion House Committee, were useful in giving information, stating that 
 So-and-So was in great distress. Did you find cases so authorised that proved 
 on inquiry not to be deserving 1 Yes ; one or two. An almoner was entrusted 
 to take some money where there was said to be urgent distress, and, when he 
 ,got there, the father and mother were both out. The father, who was in 
 employment, had not come home from his work, and the mother was out also. 
 But it turned out, on further inquiries, that it was a house of ill-fame. This 
 cae, however, was one to be relieved out of the 50 voted irregularly as I have 
 described. 
 
 345. (Chairman) : But that is a veiy valuable case that the clergyman really 
 recommended to you. I know a case in which a friend of mine was actually 
 subsidised for years to the extent of several hundred pounds for such a house 
 as that, which was kept by an old servant. 
 
 34G. (Mr. Allen) : On the whole, you found that the information was trust- 
 worthy ? Yes. 
 
 347. Did you find any instances of people sending in a list of persons they 
 Knew to be deserving people in great distress that any were not deserving or 
 in great distress ? Yes, several.
 
 25 
 
 348. I mean persons who had been recommended ? There were some, but ^r. J. E. J. 
 not a large proportion. BUAMLY. 
 
 349. In other words, you consider in any similar state of affairs in the future Jane 11, 1886, 
 that it would be desirable to confirm the recommendation of anybody, however 
 
 strong ? It would depend on whether I knew the recommender. 
 
 350. But you would not accept it unreservedly ? No. 
 
 351. Would you consider that inquiry was necessary ? Not in every case, 
 but, as a rule, I should. 
 
 352. Among the people you found generally speaking to be deserving and 
 really in distress, did you find much evidence of thrift I I may say that we 
 paid arrears of clubs to the amount of some 32. 
 
 353. How many people '. Do you know ? -No ; I am not prepared with that 
 because I have come at short notice. 
 
 354. Was one man in ten in a club, do you think ? I should say nearer one 
 in five. 
 
 355. Then you think that there really were men, who had shown some know- 
 ledge of thrift, who were absolutely in distress '( Yes ; I went into several 
 cases of people I had never heard of before, but who, I feel certain, were 
 respectable people. 
 
 356. (Mr. Medley) : I understand that you would not wish to see a Mansion 
 House Fund raised again 1 No. 
 
 357. And you have no scheme to suggest to the Committee ? It is rather a 
 difficult question. 
 
 358. I think you should know. Has your Committee any scheme or plan ? 
 You did not go into the question ? My own private opinion is that if it is real, 
 or the public believe it to be real, then some central body would have to be 
 formed a Committee of leading people and guardians, and so on, but I don't 
 think that we, as a Committee of the Charity Organisation Society, would quite 
 have the public confidence. 
 
 359. (Chairman) : Would the primary object of this Central Committee be to 
 supplement the Mansion House Committee ? No ; to distribute a local fund, 
 I think. I don't see why it should not be raised locally. 
 
 360. (Chairman) : You think it ought to be raised locally ? Yes. 
 
 361. (Mr. E. Peters) : Were the persons to whom you say you think you did 
 good were they of a class above those who apply as a rule to the Poor Law I 
 Do you see any reason why they should not have applied to the Poor Law ? 
 Yes ; many of them. I remember a gardener who had been up from the 
 country only for a year or two ; he would not have liked to go before the Poor 
 Law Guardians. 
 
 362. Was that the only case you remember speaking generally ? You will 
 see by their trades that we did not go above the artisan. AVe dii not go to 
 poor gentlefolks. I certainly came across many respectable people. 
 
 363. (Rev. W. C. Hayioard) : Was the distress the means of breaking up many 
 homes - to go to the workhouse ? Or, rather, was the scale of relief sufficient to 
 make it probable that they would be enabled to keep out of the workhouse ? 
 Yes, undoubtedly. 
 
 364. (Chairman) : You think that these people would have really gone 
 through a great deal of suffering sooner than apply for relief I Rather than go 
 to the workhouse. 
 
 365. Do you think that these persons whom you had in your mind had feelings 
 that would have prevented their going to the parish 1 It would have hurt 
 them. 
 
 366. AVould you have been exceedingly surprised if they had ? I should not 
 have been surprised if they applied to the labour-yard at Lewisham. A large 
 proportion of the men there was from the artisan, as well as from the labouring, 
 class. The Lewisham Committee wished to supplement labour-yard pay, for 
 that reason. But to this Mr. Brooke Lambert did not agree. He was judging 
 from the Greenwich labour-yard, which, he said, was the annual resort of the 
 scum of the population there. AVe think that those who wiil work in the yard 
 are more entitled to relief than those who stand about with their hands in their 
 pockets. 
 
 367. (Sir John Tilley) : You are not sure that you did better than the
 
 2G 
 
 Mr. j. R..T. guardians could have done by a well-considered plan of outdoor relief ? The 
 BUAMLY. guardians already give so much outdoor relief. 
 
 June 11, 1886 368. (Mr. Hedley) : Did you give them lump sums, or money by the week ? 
 
 By the week. 
 
 369. (Chairman) : How did you satisfy yourselves that they were not 
 getting relief from the relieving officer ? We had the fortnightly out-relief lists 
 made up to the previous evening, and the list of men in the labour-yard cor- 
 rected to the previous day ; we kept a careful watch upon that. 
 
 370. (Mr. Peters) : Besides clergymen, had the almoners any discretion, or 
 were they limited by the orders of the Committee ? Strictly limited by orders. 
 They had so much money and vouchers, and brought back receipts for what 
 they had paid. 
 
 371. (Mr. Edgcombe) : You said that you could hardly call the distress ex- 
 ceptional, but that it was great ? Yes ; owing to the intermittent work in the 
 
 summer. 
 
 372. Is the distress more than you are in the habit of seeing more than 
 during the continuance of a long frost ? Yes ; than there has been since 1881. 
 
 373. You said a number of persons applied who never would have applied 
 if it had not been for the Mansion House Fund ? I think so. 
 
 374. May it not have been that there were many of them whom it was well 
 to relieve? A small portion of them ; but there were cadgers among them. 
 
 375. Did you make the ordinary inquiries the Charity Organisation Society 
 inquiries I We had to do it quickly, and we got the best information we could, 
 and the only ones we cut straight off were the drunkards. 
 
 376. Was the last employer communicated with ? There was no time for 
 that ; but local references were applied to. 
 
 377. You say that one-fifth of the applicants belonged to clubs ? Yes ; of 
 all sorts. 
 
 378. Good clubs and bad clubs ?- Yes. 
 
 379. (Chairman} : Now, Mr. Bramly, I ask you if you will do a thing for 
 the Committee. Would you ask the builder you have referred to, to have his 
 books out before you, and get on paper the sum of money he paid in 1885 for 
 labour, and the same in 1884 ? We will also take a bad year 1880 ; and if he 
 would give you the money he paid in 1879 and 1880, we will compare the 
 scale of payment in 1884 and 1885 with that in 1879 and 1880. It would not 
 be a true test, because our population is annually increasing. * 
 
 380. (Chairman) : We can check that with the census. If your population 
 is increasing, it is an evidence you are doing well ? They are building all over 
 the place. 
 
 381. (Mr. Hedley) : You are talking of the Lewisham parish ? Yes. 
 
 382. You have no such thing as a slum in Lewisham ? Not one like Mill 
 Lane, Deptford ; but then the population comes up to us. 
 
 * From evidence kindly furnished by Mr. J. K. S. Bramly, it appeared that, com- 
 paring 1880 with 1884 and 1885, there hud been no great decline in the amount of wages 
 distributed by large firms in the district. In thccasa of one firm of builders, indeed, the 
 amount expended in wages had increased from 18,832 in 1880 to 40,062 in 1884, and 
 35,972 in 1885. The rate of wages of some firms for average workmen in the building 
 trade was as follows : groundmen, 6^(1. the hour ; bricklayers, 9d. ; bricklayers' 
 labourers, 6^. ; carpenters and joiners, 8^. ; masons, 8 \d. ; plasterers, 9d. ; painters, l\d. 
 Three others gave $d. more to carpenters and masons. Two other firms and several 
 smaller builders gave <Z. and Id. less per hour in all branches. ' The wages were not 
 bad if a man had constant work, but there was so much time lost between finishing one 
 job and getting another.' Speculating builders frequently let the work out by the 
 piece, and some at a very grinding rate. Comparing 1880 and 1884 and 1885 in a 
 large nursery garden the total amount of money paid in wages was 2,620, 2,378, and 
 2.528. Men in each of those years earned 18s. to 30s., and boys 6s. to 10s. In another 
 garden the amount of wages for the above three years was 700, 600, and 600 ; and 
 the scale of wage -was, in 1880, 20s., 22s., 24s., up to 30s. ; in 1884, 20s., 22s., up to 27s. ; 
 and in 1885 the same. 'Wages the last two years had tended downwards,' said one 
 informant. Mr. Bramly sums up: ' My impression, therefore, that though the distress 
 last winter was greater, it was not as severe as stated, is, I think, fairly borne out. In 
 fact, many men had opportunities of bettering their position last summer which I was 
 not aware of. That they did not take advantage of them is their own fault.'
 
 27 
 
 383. (Chairman) : Have you no large gardeners in the district market gar- Mr. j. n. j. 
 deners 1 Several large nursery gardeners. 
 
 384. Do you think some of these gentlemen would give you the same June 11, tssu. 
 figures ? Oh, yes. 
 
 385. I have one other question just to ask you. I should like to know 
 whether you are more uncomfortable about the chance of a Mansion House 
 Fund next winter, or the chance of distress among the population which is the 
 more uncomfortable consideration ? I think that there will be more distress 
 probably than when the Mansion House Fund was raised more real distress 
 but I should certainly view with apprehension the establishment of another 
 Mansion House Fund. 
 
 386. You fear that more than the distress or rather, that it would be more 
 difficult to deal with a Mansion House Fund than with the distress 1 
 
 387. (Mr. Edgcombe) : You don't think the Mansion House Fund will help 
 you ? No ; these men that carried the boxes were great drunkards. One man 
 who carried a large box was so drunk that he could scarcely get down the hill. 
 
 388. (Dr. Longstaff) : Did you notice any unusual begging when the Man- 
 sion House Fund was going on? That is difficult to judge. The Deptford 
 and Greenwich beggars come up to Lewisham and Lee. 
 
 389. Were you troubled at your own house ? No ; they know I belong to 
 the Charity Organisation Society. There was more begging last winter. 
 
 390. Did you hear complaints of servant girls being frightened by beggars 
 coming to the doors ? No ; but I have heard of ladies being followed in the 
 streets and frightened. 
 
 391. My point is, whether among the multitude there has been increased 
 begging 1 They begged with more persistence, perhaps, and perhaps a little 
 threatening was done. They thought that the public hand was open. 
 
 392. (Chairman) : There is no depression in the public-house trade, I sup- 
 pose ? No ; I think not. Some of them, a few years ago, were shifting their 
 ground, I believe, because the trade was not so good. 
 
 MR. W. M. ACWORTH, examined. 
 
 393. (Chairman) : You, Mr. Acworth, represent the Camberwell district jj r . YT. AT. 
 of the Mansion House Fund? Well, I was honorary secretary for the whole ACWORTH. 
 district, but I had very little to do with the distribution. 
 
 394. Now, were you first brought into connection with the Mansion House 
 Fund about February 13 ? I cannot tell you the exact date. There was 
 a meeting at the Mansion House at which Committees for the South of London 
 were constituted. 
 
 395. Before then, had you had any scheme coming under your notice to 
 lead you to believe that there was exceptional distress ? We had inquiries sent 
 down to us from this office about the last week of January. We discussed it 
 at considerable length, and myself and another member of the Committee over- 
 ruled the secretary that there was not exceptional distress. 
 
 396. You live in that district ? Just out of it. 
 
 397. From what you know your own knowledge do you think there was 
 exceptional distress at the end of January ? Yes ; now I do ; but not until 
 the Mansion House Fund commenced. I am now convinced that there was. 
 
 398. What happened to convince you ? I thought there was not, because 
 the people who came to us were the ordinary people who came, who are a little 
 above the Poor Law ; but, as soon as the Mansion House Fund came on, I saw a 
 number of people who came to us, and said that they had never in all their 
 lives applied for charity before. I saw them personally ; and had their cases 
 inquired into. 
 
 399. Now, you say personally ; did you personally inquire into the cases 
 yourself ? No ; I caused inquiries to be made by the Charity Organisation 
 Society's agent. 
 
 400. Yes ; who is an expert. Now, in the case of those persons you had 
 never seen before, the Charity Organisation Society officer went and inquired ? 
 What was his report ? Did he say they were in want of food ? Oh, 1 think 
 there was no doubt of that.
 
 28 
 
 Mr. \v. M. 401. Do you remember the nature of the report? Were they in want of 
 
 Ac \VOUTH. food, clothing, or fuel ? You did not personally inquire, but saw that somo 
 June 11 1886. bdy else did ; and, I ask, what was the character of his report, what were the 
 classes ? Clerks, artisans, warehousemen in the city. 
 
 402. Taking warehousemen, can you call to mind any of tho ; e cases? I 
 could mention clerks. I remember a man who came to me, who was a clerk of 
 mine, almost the other day, and his wife told me she was absolutely starving. 
 The man was a most respectable man in every way. 
 
 403. Where had he been serving ? He came up from Brighton. His last 
 employer had in some way rendered himself liable to the criminal law, and so 
 he lost his place. We had a great many clerks. 
 
 404. And you are quite satisfied yourself about it that there were many 
 clerks ? Yes. 
 
 405. Now, in regard to these clerks who had lost their situations, was any 
 inquiry made of their employers as to how they lost them ? I don't think, 
 practically, any were made at the time ; but, subsequently, I picked out forty, and 
 sent letters to the employers. I think they were all cases that had been helped. 
 I believe I took fifty cases, and we got answers from forty, and thirty-eight of 
 them were entirely satisfactory. 
 
 406. That is to say, enough to justify the relief ? ' Good man.' ' Slackness 
 of trade ; leaving on that account.' ' Glad to employ him again.' That was 
 the kind of answer. They were not selected at all ; they may have been 
 labourers, or any class. 
 
 407. Until the Mansion House Fund was created, you had not an idea that 
 there was so much distress, but you satisfied yourself that there was exceptional 
 distress ? That I cannot say, because I do not know what it was in former years. 
 A great many of them were builders' people. 
 
 408. How did J T OU distribute the fund ? What almoners did you employ ? - 
 Well, we divided ourselves. We had Sub-Committees in different parts of the 
 parish, and each Sub-Committee distributed all its money professed always to 
 distribute it through its own members. One particular member visited the case, 
 and reported on it on the application form ; he brought the report up to the 
 Committee, and the Committee voted the money. 
 
 409. Was it given in money or in kind ? We made a rule that it should be 
 money only. It was transgressed in one or two cases. 
 
 410. You had printed forms of application 1 Yes ; very much like those of 
 the Mansion House Fund. 
 
 411. Did you adhere pretty strictly to the rules as to able-bodied men that 
 the Mansion House Committee referred to ? We considered ourselves at liberty 
 to help some in the stone-yard. 
 
 412. Was there any advertisement that appeared in the local papers ? One 
 of the Sub-Committees put up notices, 'Applications for the Mansion House 
 Fund may be made here at certain hours.' We had a discussion whether it should 
 be done in other places, and it was generally disapproved. 
 
 413. Do you believe that the Mansion Houso Fund did more good than 
 harm ? I cannot say what harm it did: Of physical good, I think it did a 
 great deal ; but as to the higher side, I don't know. 
 
 414. (Sir J. Tilleij) : You are a Poor Law Guardian ? Not in Camberwell. 
 
 415. Do you think the Poor Law might fairly have been left to deal with 
 these cases ? Well, I think to many it would be a terrible degradation. They 
 will not apply to the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 410. Was there any great difference in the money to be obtained from the 
 Mansion House Fund and that under the Poor Law ? 
 
 417. (Mr. Edc/combe, who had temporarily taken the place of the Chairman) : 
 You mean as to the feeling of the people / I believe a great many of them 
 would have suffered much greater straits than they did before going to the Poor 
 Law. 
 
 418. (Rev. W. C. Hayward) : They would rather have received help from the 
 Mansion House Fund ? Yes. 
 
 419. (Dr. Lon'jstaff) : Did you notice any evidence of the people in your 
 district considering that they had a right to this money from the Mansion 
 House ? Yes ; but very little. One man made a row, and said there was 
 i70,000, and he did not see why he should not have some of it.
 
 29 
 
 420. Was your method criticised? Were you threatened or bullied? I Mr. w. M. 
 think it gave every satisfaction. A< \VOUTH. 
 
 421. You say that the Committee voted upon cases, and intrusted a certain June 11,1886. 
 sum to the almoner ? Yes ; a member of the Committee. 
 
 422. Did any almoner return the money without giving it ? Oh, certainly. 
 
 423. Did that happen frequently ? -The money was given for four weeks ; 
 5 per cent, for the second and third weeks, and 10 per cent, for the fourth 
 week, dropped out, because, mostly, they had got work, and partly because we 
 found out their characters. 
 
 424. Did you find that the Committeemen had a fairly reasonable desire to 
 withhold the money from the people who were undeserving I Some took a 
 great deal of trouble, and some took none. 
 
 425. Money was sometimes refused which had been granted ? Yes. 
 
 42G. Then you made use of forms of application ? Now that the whole thing 
 is over, do you think that it was a wise thing to have them ? 1 don't think it 
 would have been possible to have worked the district in any other way. 
 
 427. In what did the advantage consist 1 What would have been the 
 alternative ? We must put the particulars in writing. 
 
 428. Did you put the particulars in writing yourselves, or did the appli- 
 cant ? We tried to get them taken down by members of the Committee as far 
 as possible. 
 
 429. From the applicants that came themselves ? Yes. If any members of 
 the Sub-Committees were there to do it, they took down applications. But if 
 the applicants got too numerous, they were given forms, and told to till them up. 
 
 430. Did you find that the facts filled up by the applicants themselves were 
 correct ? They erred rather by deficiency than error. Our relief was taken to 
 the man's house. 
 
 431. Do you think that the system of having papers enabled you to give 
 the bad cases a chance of getting at you ? No ; my opinion was that by the 
 use of these papers respectable people in real distress came to us. 
 
 432. Who distributed them I As a rule, School Board visitors and district 
 visitors, who went about among them. They sent us in many cases a list of 
 names of persons in distress, who were deserving of assistance, and we sent back 
 the list and asked them to put the particulars on a printed form, and add their 
 own name as reference. I think it reached everybody we wanted to reach. 
 
 433. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : Should you be in favour of another Mansion House 
 Fund being raised ? I should be in favour of nothing of the kind if, without 
 it, you could prevent other people raising funds, but I think the Mansion 
 House Fund was a great deal better than a great many things we had. The .Daily 
 News sent down a commissioner to inquire, and then rained down money that did 
 a great deal of harm. 
 
 434. Were your Committee in favour of any other scheme or plan ? Did 
 they talk over any alternative scheme ? We tried very hard to get somo work 
 set going. We urged the Metropolitan Board of Works to lay out Dulwich 
 Park. 
 
 435. You would prefer giving them work of a local character ? Yes ; we 
 quite made up our minds to that. 
 
 436. You have no alternative scheme ? I should say that it would be very 
 much better if distress occurs next winter for plans to be got out for some o*. 
 the squares to be turned into gardens. 
 
 437. (Chairman) : By special local funds for that purpose ? I should like 
 them done as a purely local and commercial transaction. Whether it is done by 
 the vestry or a charitable organisation, I don't think would matter. 
 
 438. (Mr. Allen) : You are in favour of giving work instead of money? 
 Yes. 
 
 439. (Bev. W. C. Hay ward) : That would not meet all the cases. You could 
 not employ a clerk about work of that kind ? No ; but you tend to ease the 
 market all round. 
 
 440. (Mr. Hedley) : Did the Committee deal with the whole parish of 
 Camberwell ? Yes. 
 
 441. The Camberwell population consists of 200,000 ? We spent 3,700. 
 
 442. On a population of 200,000 ? We spent a little over l a head of those 
 we helped. We had 4,000 cases, and we helped 3,000 of them.
 
 80 
 
 VIr -} v -.^- 443. Yours was the Mansion House Fund. That first week you had great 
 
 distress 1 Yes ; I said that from my experience of the Charity Organisation 
 Turn' 11. IHSC. Society I had not seen exceptional distress. Everybody had heard that there 
 was exceptional distress, but I thought it exaggerated. 
 
 444. Then it was in consequence of the applications that were made to you 
 that you became aware of the exceptional distress ? They were a different class 
 of people. It was that that drew my attention to it. One man who applied 
 told me distinctly that he had been 25 years in one house, and never had 
 applied for relief. 
 
 445. (Sir J. Tilley) : Were you well acquainted with the people by visiting 
 them 1 No. I cannot claim to have visited much. 
 
 446. A great deal of distress may surround you without your knowing it ? 
 Oh, certainly. 
 
 447. Is it not a very surprising thing that you did not know if there was 
 exceptional distress ? No ; I don't see that. 
 
 448. (Chairman, Mr. Pell): In Camberwell, does a man never know of distress 
 incidentally except through the Charity Organisation Society or the Mansion House 
 Fund } Have you never in your life heard of distress among people incident- 
 ally, as your neighbours, or being connected with you in some industry, or from 
 their working in your house I It seems so extraordinary that distress should 
 only be heard of through some official channel. You have not told us whether 
 you knew of distress of brothers or sisters of your servants, or connections of 
 workmen in your house ? I have heard of people being out of work. 
 
 449. Did you know more of that in January this year than in other years ? 
 Yes ; from talking to a workman, who told me. 
 
 450. Yes ; a man may come and say, ' I worked for you so and so, and I 
 am very badly off now.' Many things of that kind will crop up without 
 going to the clergyman. Did you have more of that connected with your 
 private life than what you knew from your connection with the Charity Organi- 
 sation Society or Mansion House Fund ? I only remember one case of a man 
 asking me for work ; but that was not in the parish of Camberwell. 
 
 451. Did you have more of that sort of call upon you this winter in your 
 life ? I will say, at once, that I did not. 
 
 452. (Rev. C. Hay ward) : Does that apply to London or the country, or 
 both ? (No answer.) 
 
 453. (Mr. Edgcombe) : I think you said that after the Mansion House Fund 
 was started you became aware of exceptional distress clerks, and so on, apply- 
 ing for relief, who would not apply otherwise 1 Yes. 
 
 454. If the Mansion House Fund had never existed, would it never have 
 come to your knowledge '] What would they have done ? Some would have 
 got through, and some would have gone to the workhouse. 
 
 455. Would they not rather have come to the Charity Organisation Society 
 than to the Poor Law or a local charity ? I don't know any local charity 
 except the Charity Organisation Society that there would be any use going to. 
 
 456. So that by the existence of this fund you had an opportunity of be- 
 coming aware of this distress. Was there much rent due ? Yes ; there were 
 a good many weeks in arrear. 
 
 457. What inquiries did you make into these applications ? Each case was 
 visited by a member of the Committee, and the report was put on the back of 
 the form ; there was a reference at the bottom of the form. If the scheme was 
 properly carried out the referee was visited, and asked what he had to say. 
 Then the case was visited once a week, when the money was taken to the house. 
 
 458. Was the employer communicated with I No ; it was not possible. 
 
 459. (Chairman) : Was the house agent, or rent-collector, asked whether 
 there was a large amount of unpaid rent on their books ? Was there a test 
 applied to ask rent-collectors or collectors of parish rates '. I could not give it 
 you at first hand, but I have heard it again and again. 
 
 460. That the agent had been asked >. I heard it from active members of 
 the Committee. 1 could not say that I had asked any individual rent or rate- 
 collector. 
 
 461. Were any of your Committee guardians ? A great many. The relief- 
 sheets were, as far as possible, submitted to the relieving officer of the district
 
 31 
 
 in which the applicants lived. Out of 2,000, they were able to tell us, in five Mr. w. M. 
 
 or six cases, that they were in receipt of outdoor relief. Ac WORTH. 
 
 462. (Mr. Loch, Secretary) : The Camberwell Mansion House Report, signed .Tmie~ii~~isso. 
 by yourself, says : ' The Committee desire to draw special attention to the 
 
 number of duplicate and triplicate applications, &c.' You would wish to 
 manage these details in a future year quite locally, not worked from a District 
 Committee 1 You would have the application form used solely by the Ward 
 Committee ] I think the Mansion House Fund ought not to do it, and I don't 
 see why the Local Committee should do it, except that no one really knows 
 what a ward is. Most people know whether they are in the parish of Camber- 
 well or not, but not the wards. Then 'I think that School Board officers 
 and rent-collectors in model buildings should have some. 
 
 463. (Beading) 'Hundreds of forms were received.' Do you think that 
 the eagerness was due to the fact that the question of relief was in the wind, 
 or that the distress was very pressing 1 Was it starvation that goaded them to 
 application, or that the Mansion House Fund was there with its hand open ? 
 Do you think there was actual starvation from your own inquiry ? No doubt ; 
 but personally I cannot say. 
 
 464. But cases were visited by members ? Yes. 
 
 465. Then if there was starvation, the members wotild have seen it ? I think 
 so. I wrote to you that the best person to give that information is the Chairman 
 of one of the Sub-Committees. 
 
 466. (Mr. Edgcombe) : The Central Committee did not get these details ? 
 They never got anything after the Sub-Committees were appointed. 
 
 467. Did you get any applications by way of letter? Very many. 
 
 468. How did people come to send them ? Was it simply the noise, so to 
 speak, that there was a Relief Committee ? They heard there was relief to be 
 had, and they wanted relief ; it was advertised that there was a place to apply at. 
 
 469. (Mr. Loch) : When they came in large numbers, did you find it help 
 you most to take the applications in the office ? Far better that they should 
 be taken in the office, because you got a good many more particulars. 
 
 470. Don't you think it was difficult to work the plan side by side with the 
 reference function ? It was. 
 
 471. Can you suggest any way in which that could be arranged with a 
 crowd ? I cannot, except by suggesting that we got far more people to do the 
 work than we had. 
 
 472. Could you suggest any means of reducing the number by saying what 
 people you could help, and what you could not 1 We helped three out of four 
 of those who applied, so that you could only get rid of about 25 per cent. 
 
 473. Suppose you had a labour-yard supported by charity, could you have 
 said, We will not take cases of able-bodied men unless e.g., they go to these 
 works 1 I don't think I can answer that. It seems to me it is a question of 
 what the public will stand. 
 
 474. A fund is established, a crowd is got together, you cannot work 
 properly without more helpers unless you can reduce your crowd ? How is it 
 to be done ? Would you establish a labour-yard ? I would not give relief to 
 anyone who would not go to the labour-yard. 
 
 475. (Mr. Hedley) : Would you not refuse relief to those who had not been 
 one year in residence ? I don't think it would be fair in a changing population, 
 as in London. 
 
 476. (Chairman) : Would not you gain something by taking one acknow- 
 ledged rule ? Mr. Hedley wants to know whether you can distribute public 
 funds without some such rule 1 
 
 477. (Mr. Hedley) : There is always the Poor Law behind you? This was 
 not a local charity. If Camberwell had raised money, it would not have raised 
 .t'100. One side of Denmark Hill is almost entirely poor, and the other is 
 almost entirely rich ; and they do not recognise any responsibility. 
 
 478. So that London took up a responsibility which ought to have been 
 locally discharged ? No doubt it is a fact. It is fair to remember that the 
 population of Camberwell don't work for the population of Camberwell any 
 more than they work for the population of Grosvenor Square ; it is simply a 
 sleeping place for workers elsewhere. 
 
 479. Do you look forward to getting larger personal help for the distribution
 
 32 
 
 ^ Ir '. w ,',? 1 ' of the fund ? We really did get a great deal ; not enough during the day in 
 
 L ' taking down cases, but enough to decide them. 
 
 June 11, 188C 480. Assuming that they had been taken down properly ? Yes. 
 
 481. (Mr Loch) : You could not go to employers 1 They lived in other parts. 
 of London, in most cases. It implies correspondence arrangements with people 
 in other parts of London. We should have had fifty people writing to Mowlem 
 and Burt. 
 
 482. The organisation for inquiry was wanting? Yes. 
 
 483. And then, as regards visiting, you depended upon the personal visit* 
 of members ? Yes. 
 
 484. And yet these members were not sufficiently numerous to do it 
 properly ? No. 
 
 485. How many cases was a person expected to visit in a day ? I don't think 
 I could tell you. 
 
 486. (Reading) ' The Committee regret that it was not found possible to 
 open public works, &c.' Is it proposed to start anything this year I Are th'j 
 local authorities doing anything ? I have heard of nothing. 
 
 487- Then, in that case, may I take it for granted that nothing is being 
 done ? I think you might. 
 
 488. Is it your impression that you will be in the same difficulty next year, 
 that the remedy is wanted and won't be applied ? I think so. 
 
 489. What would you propose to do then, as a member of our Society, or as 
 interested in Camberwell ? I don't see that a private individual can do anything. 
 
 490. Would you suggest any public action in Camberwell, for example ? I 
 think the Board of Guardians might be moved perhaps to set some form of works 
 on foot, or the vestry might lay out public places ; a large number might be 
 employed at Dulwich Park. 
 
 491. (Chairman) : Is not that communism? No, I think not. I don't think 
 it is a worse thing for the vestry to find work for people in the winter time, 
 than it is for you or me to find work for a carpenter. All I understand by 
 the proposal is that works to be done sooner or later should be done not in. 
 the busy time of year, but at the slack time. 
 
 492. (Chairman) : How would that suit me as a person building in another 
 part of London ? Should the builder come to me and propose deferring my 
 building until the winter, when work was slack ? I didn't say building, but 
 laying out a park. 
 
 493. (Mr. Edgcombe) : You said the guardians might undertake certain 
 works ? The Wandsworth Guardians did that. 
 
 494. (Dr. Longstaff) : That was anticipating building. I heard that the 
 contract was not concluded for the casual ward, and they thought they might 
 have the excavations done. 
 
 495. (Mr. Hedley) : Yes ; and they dug out a great deal of valuable sand ? 
 That was exactly the kind of thing that was in my mind. 
 
 490. The circumstance was entirely exceptional ? Yes. 
 
 497. (Mr. Loch) : Weekly visitation do you think you could count in 
 another year on getting such number of persons to visit weekly as would ensure 
 a proper sifting of cases, and better than you had this year / I think we are 
 capable of eliminating cases that are ineligible under our rules cases that are 
 obviously drunken and dissipated. 
 
 498. But suppose you tried to work to a higher standard, do you think you 
 could get sufficient visitors for the purpose 'I I don't think we should get 
 trained visitors. 
 
 499. (Mr. Edgcombe) : This visiting requires some practice ? And a consider- 
 able gift to start with. 
 
 500. (Mr. Loch) : Then, would you be able, for ir.stance, to get visitors to 
 ascertain the facts as to thrift, and to adopt a higher standard of relief work by 
 taking the amount of thrift as, in some degree, a test ? The question of thrift 
 would hardly be a question for a visitor at all. You would require the production 
 of a savings bank book ; and you would see the pawn-tickets. 
 
 501. (Mr. Peters) : You come to this, then, that if there is a thrift test, there 
 are so many means of testing it that you could do it without! ncreasing the 
 visitors ? Yes. 
 
 (The Committee then adjourned.)
 
 33 
 
 FRIDAY, 18iH JUNE, 1886. 
 Present Mr. ALBERT PELL, in the chair. 
 
 Hon. and Rev. Canon LEGGE, Hon. C. W. FREMANTLE, 
 
 Rev. BROOKE LAMBERT, Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD, 
 
 Dr. G. B. LONGSTAFF, Mr. J. H. ALLEX, 
 
 Mr. F. J. S. EDGCOMBE, Mr. E. PETERS. 
 
 REV. W. CURTIS HAYWARD, examined. 
 
 502. (Chairman) : Do you believe that there was much exceptional distress Rev. w. CL-RTIS 
 distress that you would not have had in other years ? I believe that there was. HAY\VAUD. 
 
 I speak chiefly of St. James's and Soho. Ju]ic ls 188G 
 
 503. Was that a general distress, or more remarkable in particular indus- 
 tries in some industries more than in others.' The population is chiefly composed 
 of poor : tailors, shoemakers, a certain number of people in the building trade, 
 decorators, and a good many silversmiths. 
 
 504. Among all those industries you found distress ? I did. 
 
 505. You have a great many foreigners in Soho ? Yes, a good number. 
 
 506. Did the distress affect them as well as the others? 1 think it did. 
 
 507. Did any of the French people come to you ? There were one or two 
 Italians. 
 
 508 . Had they been in the habit of coming for relief in other winters ? 
 Sometimes. 
 
 509. But you found more this last winter ? At least, they were in greater 
 distress last winter. They had been longer out of work. 
 
 510. Which came under your notice first, the exceptional distress or the 
 Mansion House Fund 1 The exceptional distress. 
 
 511. The date of the Fund was the llth February ; when did the exceptional 
 distress begin to strike you I I should say the whole winter. 
 
 512. No ; but when did it first strike you 1 Oh, all through the winter. 
 
 513. When do you take to be the commencement of the winter ? The be- 
 ginning of November. 
 
 514. Then in the beginning of November you were first struck with the 
 presence of unusual distress ? Yes, I think so. 
 
 515. And the causes of that distress must have been before November during 
 the summer probably ? Yes. 
 
 516. During the summer was there anything to lead you to believe that 
 distress might come upon you in the winter I No, I think not. I found that 
 they had less work than usual during the summer. 
 
 517. Then you think the people were not well employed in the summer ? 
 do. 
 
 518. What definite evidence was there of the existence of distress in Soho in 
 November 1 I am only connected with that district as almoner for the Society 
 for the Relief of Distress ; and I am a member of the Charity Organisation 
 Committee. I am not connected with Soho otherwise. The clergy brought 
 cases of distress before the Charity Organisation Committee. If they brought 
 the cases of people who were out of work to us we said we were not allowed 
 to help out-of-work people. 
 
 519. Then it was the clergy who first brought it before you ? Yes, and other 
 charitable persons. 
 
 520. Persons distributing bounty ? Tradespeople. 
 
 521. Can you tell us anybody else ? It was the general impression. 
 
 522. I want to get rid of general impression. I can show you how we ascer- 
 tained that the distress was real. When I say it struck me first in November, 
 I think it had been in existence a considerable time previously, and if I had 
 been the clergyman of the district it would have come more under my notice. 
 My daughter and I visit a good deal among the poor, and we are thoroughly con- 
 vinced that there was more distress than usual.
 
 34 
 
 Rev. w.Cuims 523. Then there was something more than the statements of the clergy. 
 AYWAIUJ. What was the circumstance that led you to believe that there was exceptional 
 June is, 1880. distress in Soho in November ? I don't say it commenced in November ; I 
 eay it had been gradually increasing. 
 
 524. But there had been something we won't be nice about it what was 
 there besides the statements of the clergy that led you to believe that ? Are 
 you a landowner or a householder in Soho ? Oh no ; and I do not live there. 
 
 525. What was there beside the statements of the clergy that led you to 
 believe there was distress in November ?- There were a number of people who 
 said, ' Would you look to such and such a case I ' and I said in reply that we 
 had no fund to do it with. 
 
 526. Who was it ? Some of the people we visited told us of the distress of 
 others. T don't say they came to me, but in visiting among them I got to know. 
 
 527. Did you go to look out for distress ? No, I never do that ; but when a 
 case is brought to me and I am asked whether I can go I do so, and I make a 
 point of visiting every one whom I relieve ; and I am convinced that there was 
 exceptional distress at that time among the class of tailors, shoemakers, and 
 other mechanics. 
 
 528. Well now, when this distress became apparent to you and statements 
 were made by tailors and shoemakers that they were in distress, what did they 
 say that the money was wanted for was it to pay rent, or were they in want of 
 food ? Yes. 
 
 529. Did you check those statements by inquiring of the persons for whom 
 they worked ? I did. 
 
 530. I will pass these questions by till we come to the Mansion House Fund. 
 Well now, what in your mind was the cause of this distress as you believed it 
 to exist want of employment ? Yes, I think it was chiefly owing to a want of 
 employment ; they had not had employment for a sufficient time to enable them 
 to prepare for the winter. 
 
 531. Do you think that that want of employment was caused by demanding 
 higher wages than the employers were prepared to give ? No, I think not. 
 
 532. You don't trace anything to the weather ? No. 
 
 533. Had there been in Soho any transfer of industries to other places ? No. 
 I should say they ought to be better off than formerly, because many of the 
 smaller houses had been pulled down. 
 
 534. I think the shoemakers in Soho work upon ladies' goods chiefly ? They 
 work chiefly for the shops. 
 
 535. Is not the trade of the shops and factories for which they work in ladies' 
 goods ? No ; I think they work for all the firms about there. 
 
 536. Has rent been raised in Soho ? I think not. 
 
 537. Are the necessaries of life dearer ? No. 
 
 538. Is education more costly for the poor ? No. 
 
 539. Has this distress at all subsided ? Oh, very much . 
 
 540. When did it begin to subside ? As soon as people began to leave off their 
 overcoats. 
 
 541. If this distress has been so long coming on, how could they so suddenly 
 find the means of escaping it at the end of a long and severe winter ? Did they 
 get credit ? Oh yes ; as soon as people began to leave off their overcoats, people 
 began to get their summer clothes. 
 
 542. Oh, they got work then ? Do you think the amount of work distributed 
 in Soho is larger than it was last year ? No. 
 
 543. Do you think the causes of distress are beginning for next winter ? 
 Yes. Well I think that depends on how soon work ceases ; they are pretty well 
 at work now ; people are getting their spring clothes. 
 
 544. But what is there in this year that would lead you to believe that there 
 will not be distress ? Oh, I very much fear there will. 
 
 545. Have you taken any energetic means to raise another fund ? I should 
 very much deprecate another Mansion House Fund. It did some good, but a 
 great deal of harm. 
 
 546. Now, with reference to the Mansion House Fund, were you the chairman 
 of a Relief Committee ? Yes. We commenced with the Mansion House money
 
 35 
 
 being sent to all the almoners for the Society for the Relief of Distress. Soho Rev. \\ r . CUKTL-- 
 happens to be pretty well covered by almoners. 
 
 547. But it first came to the Society for the Relief of Distress. Was a Com- 
 mittee formed then ? Yes. 
 
 548. And you were chairman ? I was. 
 
 549. (Mr. Hedley) : Was that about February 20 ? 
 
 550. (Chairman) : Why was the Committee formed ? Was not that Society 
 equal to the distribution of the money ? I think it was ; but an order came to 
 us to form a Committee and we formed one. 
 
 551. Of the old instruments really ? Had you an office ? Yes. 
 
 552. Have you published any reports since 1 No. 
 
 553. Did you take a room ? Yes. 
 
 554. Was there a placard outside ? We commenced by using the room of 
 the Charity Organisation Society, but this interfered with their work so much 
 that we took another. 
 
 555. Was there anything outside to indicate that you were sitting there 1- 
 The people knew it well enough. Several things were sent round, such as 
 these (producing two papers). 
 
 550. (Mr. Hedley) : The room was not taken, I think, till the Mansion 
 House Fund was nearly at an end ? About three weeks before. 
 
 557. Were these papers issued by delegates of the Mansion House Fund ? 
 These (indicating) were issued from the Mansion House Fund. These others 
 we issued. 
 
 558. (Chairman) : How were they issued ? Did people go about with 
 them 1 No ; there was a notice put at the door of the room of the Charity 
 Organisation Society that these forms could be had there. 
 
 559. I am very anxious to know how those papers were distributed. There 
 is a statement that money was to be got on application. How was it dis- 
 tributed ? 
 
 500. (Rev. B. Lambert) : People came to the Mansion House knowing that 
 relief was given there. That paper was sent to you by post from the Mansion 
 House. They were sent out in packets. I had hundreds sent to me as chair- 
 man of the Committee. 
 
 501. (Chairman) : What we have got is this that there was a sheet issued 
 by the Mansion House Central Relief Fund, containing upon the back of it 
 the addresses of the Sub-Committees in London, and on the other side an 
 application form ; that this application form was filled up by persons applying 
 at the Mansion House, and then were sent to the Committee acting in the dis- 
 trict to which the applicant said he belonged. Now, having got the room and 
 formed the Committee, what were your proceedings ? Who constituted the 
 Committee ? About eight, I should say. I was chairman, and there were five 
 other almoners Miss Tillard, Hon. Secretary Charity Organisation Society, 
 who was on the Committee, and two or three ladies. Mr. Watson, inspector of 
 nuisances, was put on by the Mansion House Committee. 
 
 502 . But he belonged to Soho ? I do not know . 
 
 503 . The Committee consisted of eight persons and one who was added by the 
 Mansion House Fund 1 Yes. 
 
 504. Then you met daily ? No, twice a week. 
 
 505. Did you see the applicants i Yes. 
 
 500. They came to the Committee-room ? No, they sent their papers. We 
 gave them papers ; the Secretary asked them questions and filled in their 
 answers. 
 
 507. Did you see the people ? I saw them at their homes. I did not relieve 
 a single case in which I did not go to the house, at all events the first time. 1 
 afterwards sometimes sent. 
 
 508. Was any almoner acting under you who helped you ? Yes, two ladies, 
 who were a great help. 
 
 509. Did the almoners verify the statements before any money was given ? 
 Almost in every case. I could not always go myself. For instance, here on an 
 application form is ' Where was your last employ 1 ' I either went or sent to the 
 employer to say, ' Is this true ? Do you think that there is any reason why he
 
 36 
 
 Rev. w. CTTUTTS should be in exceptional distress ? ' And in almost every case he said ' Yes.' I 
 HAYWAKD. might mention one case a cabinet-maker who had at one time received high 
 June 18, 1886. wages, a first-rate man, who worked for Shoolbred. Some years ago he had 50s. 
 a week, and he assured me when I was there that he had never for the last three 
 years received more than 25s. a week. A great part of that time he had been out 
 of work. That was a case I thought for relief, and I relieved it very sub- 
 stantially. I sent to Shoolbred's foreman. He said, ' He is a most respectable 
 man ; we have very little work, owing to want of trade, but I should be very 
 glad to employ him as soon as I have work to give him ; there is no doubt his 
 wages would not average more than 25s. a week.' 
 
 570. (Dr. Lvngstaff) : Did Shoolbreds get a good deal of work from the 
 country ? He said he got a good deal from Germany. 
 
 571. (Dr. Longstaff) : I happen to know one in the West of England who 
 makes for a great many London firms. 
 
 572. (Chairman) : Now for the Poor Law officers did you see a relieving 
 officer and ask him 1 ? I did not. There did not seem any necessity for it. 
 
 573. Did any Poor Law cases come to you, do you think ? Do you think that 
 these people who came to you had been in the habit of asking relief from the 
 Poor Law ? No; it is a different class of people, and they would scarcely in any 
 case have got out-door relief, because they would have been sold up. 
 
 574. We don't take the cabinet-maker as a type of the class. A man having 
 25s. a week you would not give relief to for the reason that he once had 50s. ? 
 No ; but he said he had not had a stroke of work since October, I think. 
 
 575. Did you make any inquiries of the pawnbrokers ? They said that the 
 distress was so great that they could not advance money upon tools. 
 
 576. Did you make any inquiries of the benefit or provident societies to know 
 whether the payments into these societies had abated at all ? No ; I inquired of 
 the applicants themselves whether they were in benefit societies. 
 
 577. You are a good deal among the poor of Soho ; did you see any indica- 
 tions of the trade of the publican abating? No. 
 
 578. Have any public-houses been shut up ? It is a question that just arises 
 from my own knowledge of these places of business it has been an unusually 
 good winter for them in the east of London 1 I feel pretty well convinced that 
 none, or a very small part, of the money I gave went to the public-houses. 
 
 579. You have a very large number of French people in Soho ? I did not 
 come across many. 
 
 580. Church Street is in the district, and Gerrard Street. Is not the popula- 
 tion almost all French at least one house in three ? I did come across one 
 French baker, but there are very few. 
 
 581. Did you find that these foreigners had met with exceptional distress ? 
 There are a good many that come to the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 582. (Chairman) : More applications from women than from men ? No. 
 
 583. Were the young as much affected as the old ? Did it strike you that 
 many middle-aged men and women came ? Oh, as a rule I did not relieve the 
 old if they were past work. 
 
 584. (The Rev. B. Lambert) : You went as in other years and you found 
 more distress. Was there a gradual increase after the Mansion House Fund 
 was raised, or was there a jump ? I cannot say that ; I was not enough amongst 
 them to notice that. In talking it over we have said it is very easy to say that 
 there is not exceptional distress. 
 
 585. I understood you to say that some houses had been pulled down and that 
 that distributed more trade amongst the people, but you said that there was no 
 increase of rent ? They do complain of rent being too high. 
 
 586. Do you know of foreign societies doing anything ? I don't know that 
 they did ; but they do help them. They do it upon a very fixed rule ; they 
 give 10s. More, generally, they won't give. 
 
 587. Do you find the distress among the class of small shopkeepers ? Yes ; as 
 a rule I could not help them very well, but I did find it. 
 
 588. Did you have any opportunity to inquire whether there had been any 
 exceptional demand for parish relief ? I did not inquire. 
 
 589. (Chairman) : With regard to the Westminster Union, this statement
 
 37. 
 
 was made to the Local Government Board by the Clerk to the Board of Rev. w. CURTIS 
 
 Guardians : ' I desire to state that there is no more than the normal amount of HAYWAUD. 
 
 distress existing in the discrict,'* &c. (reading). Then from the Vestry of the June is, 188 
 
 parish of St. James's, Westminster, there is a return made, signed by Mr. 
 
 Wilkins, the Vestry Clerk : ' In reply to your inquiries with reference to the 
 
 special distress which is alleged to exist at the present time in the metropolis, I 
 
 am to acquaint you that the Vestry have no reason to believe that, so far as this 
 
 parish is concerned, there is any distress of an exceptional character, or that 
 
 more persons are out of employment than is usually the case in the v/inter 
 
 months, 'f &c. (reading). That is February 24 1 My district was in St. 
 
 James's and Soho. There is an almoner for St. James's, who gave nothing, or 
 
 next to nothing, saying that he found no need for it. He distributed i'10, I 
 
 think, whereas I distributed 120. 
 
 590. (Mr. Peters): You spent the whole, then? No. 
 
 591. (Rev. B. Lambert): You found distress among the shopkeepers, but the 
 parish do not seem to have done so ; they have had no application for reduction 
 of rates. I have only one question more to ask, whether after the establishment 
 of the fund you found a very considerable increase of cases ? Well, the 
 applications did increase, and would again, I have no doubt, if a fund was 
 got up. 
 
 592. How many people were relieved ? I should say about 25 per cent, were 
 rejected, 75 per cent, were relieved. 
 
 593. You cannot tell how many applications altogether ? No. You mean 
 for the whole district 1 I relieved about 130 cases, and I should say I relieved 
 half of those relieved. 
 
 594. (Mr. Hedley) : Do you mean how many altogether in St. James's ? I 
 have got all the figures at the office. 
 
 595. (Rev. B. Lambert) : I want to know how many applications relieved. 
 There were, you say, 75 per cent, relieved and 25 per cent, rejected ; it would 
 make 100 cases altogether ? - Not for the whole of St. James's. 
 
 596. (Chairman) : Well, you have it there you relieved 130, which you say 
 was about half of the whole ; which would therefore be about 260. 
 
 597. (Rev. B. Lambert) : I want the number relieved by the Committee. 
 That would make it 300 ? I don't think there were any more than that. 
 
 598. (Chairman) : Have we got it that there were only about 300 cases in the 
 Soho district that is, applications for relief ? I don't know that. 
 
 599. (Rev. Canon Legge) : I think you attributed the distress to a want of 
 work in the previous summer ? Yes, for a considerable time. 
 
 600. Would it be on account of the rich classes spending less money last 
 summer ? Partly, but chiefly from general depression. I spent less. 
 
 601. You passed less money to the producers of goods 1 Yes. 
 
 602. But did you get a less quantity of goods 1 Yes ; where I had two hats 
 I got one. 
 
 603. (Canon Legge) : You don't know if there was a labour yard 1 No, there 
 was not. You could not have put these people into a labour yard. 
 
 604. (Mr. JEdgcombe) : Is this as it came before you (indicating the applica- 
 tion form) 1 It appears a great many were filled up already ? Yes. 
 
 605. But I observe two forms one is the Mansion House form, one not 
 Mansion House at all. How did this one get filled up ? If they could write 
 they had to fill it. 
 
 606. Some charitable persons called your attention by letter to certain cases, 
 I presume '( Sometimes. If they did, I sent them one of these. 
 
 607. Did you in every case communicate with the employer? Yes, as a 
 rule, though 1 cannot say in every case. I was so thoroughly convinced that 
 the men were right in saying that they did not get as much work as usual, that 
 I did not in all cases inquire. 
 
 608. You can hardly say as a rule you did inquire ? Yes, as a rule I did ; 
 it was the exception not to inquire. 
 
 * Return, Pauperism and Distress ; printed March 8, 1886, p. 18. 
 t Idem, p. 49.
 
 - 38 
 
 Rev. w. CUKTIS 609. Were these cases decided by the Committee ? No, by the almoner. 
 AV\\ABU. Q^Q y ou gav y ou ^ no j. g J. Q ^j ie re ij ev j n g omcer ; h a( j you any guardian 
 
 June 18, issG. sitting upon the Committee ? No. 
 
 611. Or relieving officer, or Poor Law officer 1 No. 
 
 612. (Mr. Hedley) : Then, Mr. Hayward, you do not favour the establish- 
 ment of a similar fund again ? No. 
 
 613. Have you any course you would suggest for the future in the event of 
 distress arising ? I should say in the first place that I think it is a mistake, 
 first, to say that there is no exceptional distress. You will not convince the 
 charitable world that there is not ; but I think that if the Society for the 
 Relief of Distress or others would make an appeal for extra funds, and distri- 
 bute them through their almoners, it would be done much more quietly. 
 
 614. You would strengthen the hands of the existing institutions 1 Yes. 
 
 615. Would you adopt any other course ? I think that that would be suffi- 
 cient ; but they must increase the number of their almoners, and, of course, 
 there would be the difficulty of getting efficient almoners. But I have been 
 for several years among the poor, working more or less among them, and I 
 know, I think, whether a man is trying to impose upon me or not. 
 
 616. (Mr. Peters) : Have you not many men in Soho hangers-on of theatres 
 and cabstands, and so on cadgers 'I You have a good many of that sort ? 
 Yes, we have a good many. 
 
 617. Were the persons relieved by you out of the Mansion House Fund of 
 a class you could not have expected to go for relief to the poorhouse 1 Were 
 they of a superior class? Yes. 
 
 618. What was the amount that passed through your hands ? About 400. 
 We returned about 60. 
 
 619. Then you relieved the whole of the distress with 340 ? Yes. I 
 should not have wished to have had more. 
 
 620. What form of relief did you give was it for food or what ? In very 
 few cases did I consider it was given for food ; but there were so many in 
 imminent danger of being turned out of their houses. 
 
 621. Then it was to a large extent given to pay arrears of rent ? I did not 
 infringe the rules, but sometimes I gave 1 for two weeks in advance, instead 
 of 10s. for one week, where rent was in arrear and there was danger of being 
 turned out. 
 
 622. (Dr. Longstaff) : Do you prefer individual judgment to a Committee's 
 decision on cases ? I do, as a whole. 
 
 623. Do you think, in panic cases of this kind, you can get a sufficient 
 number of proper persons to distribute 1 I fear there would be a difficulty in 
 that. 
 
 624. Failing a supply of such almoners, would you have recourse to a Com- 
 mittee ? Yes. 
 
 625. In case of a Committee meeting again, can you suggest any improve- 
 ment in the way of working ? No, I think not. We had a Committee after- 
 wards, but we did not bring every case before it. 
 
 626. You consider on the whole your inquiry was reasonably adequate 1 I 
 think so. 
 
 627. (Mr. Fremantle) : How did you deal with those who are out of work 
 just now referred to as cadgers ? I generally said, ' You don't come under our 
 rules ; you have just as much as usual.' I certainly did not say this to the 
 smaller shopkeepers. 
 
 628. And you found you had no difficulty in getting rid of the cases in that 
 way? There was some odium attached to it, but we did not relieve them. 
 
 629. (Mr. Loch): As an indication of distress you referred to the local Charity 
 Organisation Committee as having sent you cases to be relieved by you as 
 almoner. Their cases in 1884 and 1885 were not more numerous, 1 find on 
 reference. Was there any other indication ? Were the cases more numerous ? I 
 don't think they were. 
 
 630. Then there was some other indication of distress than the number of 
 cases? Yes ; it was not at all from the number of cases. In many cases when 
 I went there I heard of distress ; many said they never knew such distress in 
 their lives.
 
 39 
 
 G31. It was when yon visited a case that had come before the Charity Organi- Rev. w. CUUTIS 
 sation Society ? Yes, and the clergy. HAYU-ARD. 
 
 632. (Chairman) : They were more numerous ? j une is, tsscj. 
 
 033. (Mr. Loch) : Then why was it that we did not get more applications ? 
 Because there were many who object to go to the Poor Law and also to the Charity 
 Organisation Society. They think they are under a ban, if they do, in the 
 class of society in which they live. 
 
 634. Then what it comes to is this, that there is a Poor Law to which the 
 people did not go ; then there is a charitable administration set side by side with 
 the Poor Law, and they did not go there. Was it because they were not suit- 
 able applicants 1 I don't say they were not suitable, but they did not consider 
 themselves suitable. 
 
 635. Then we are driven to the establishment of a third body is that 
 inevitable ? No, I think not. 
 
 636. What would you suggest in a future year ? Would you put the two 
 societies, the Metropolitan Visiting and Relief Association, and the Society for 
 the Relief of Distress, on the spot to do the work ? Yes, and possibly the 
 Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 637. What I understand is this : the Charity Organisation Society could not 
 very well act, because by its method it would place applicants under a ban. 
 Would this be due in part at least to the investigation ? Yes. 
 
 638. Then as a safeguard would there not have to be some investigation ? 
 Yes. 
 
 639. What investigation would be sufficient, and yet come short of what we 
 do ? Investigation such as I have spoken to you of. If you ask people whether 
 you can go to the employers, they don't object. But if they go to the Charity 
 Organisation Society you ask, What relations have you that can help you, and 
 what employers, and so on, and it becomes rather onerous. 
 
 640. Suppose one of the people in St. James's had a relation who was a 
 shopkeeper there, a well-to-do man, that would not come out in your investi- 
 gation ? Well, but it would come out whether the person was in great distress 
 or no. 
 
 641 . Is it a cardinal point that relations should help 1 I should not make it 
 a point. 
 
 642. Would you think it at all an important point in a case, at another time 
 than a time of distress ? I think not. 
 
 643. Take other questions. For instance, with regard to wages ; I think 
 that was one point you mentioned that might be omitted. Do you think if a 
 man has been earning large wages that that ought to be considered ? Yes ; but 
 when he told me that he had been out of work, and other circumstances, I was 
 convinced that his was a proper case. He was a sober man. 
 
 644. (Chairman) : Was he a married man with a large family ? He had two 
 children dependent upon him, and his wife was dying. 
 
 645. (Mr. Loch) : Did he belong to a club ? I think he told me he was out 
 of it. The man was peculiarly circumstanced : the whole house belonged to 
 him, and he let it out to others, and the not being able to get his lodgers' rents 
 had involved him in great difficulties. He did not like to give up the house. 
 
 646. (Mr. Loch) : I was only using this as an instance to ascertain what 
 points were dealt with ; but the question of past wages is important ? Yes. 
 
 647. 1 understand that is a point you would leave out? No. 
 
 648. Would you say, ' This man has been earning large wages ; I cannot 
 assist him ' ? No ; it does not follow from that he is not in great distress, if 
 he is out of work. 
 
 649. In that case would you leave him to the Poor Law ? No. Then as a 
 matter of fact, other details apart, the Poor Law would not be used in out-of- 
 work cases in which the man has been earning large wages? That simply 
 means breaking up his home. 
 
 650. I only wanted an answer to the question. You would say, ' This man 
 has had large wages, and therefore I would not assist him, but I would not send 
 him to the Poor Law 1 ' I would not send a case to the Poor Law because he 
 had had large wages. 
 
 651. Then, you would modify not only your investigation, but also your
 
 40 
 
 BEV. W. CURTIS 
 HAT WARD. 
 
 June 18, 188C. 
 
 decision. Some differences you would introduce into the investigation by reducing 
 the amount of inquiry ; and you would also reduce the sharpness of your deci- 
 sions? You would apply no test? No. 
 
 C52. Suppose you are dealing with a high-class artisan, you would not apply 
 any sort of thrift test ? I did apply it. I went to the employer, and asked him 
 how many weeks he got high wages, and if he got high wages for sixteen weeks 
 out of the year I distributed that over the year. 
 
 653. You have had no instance of that? Oh yes, I did that sometimes. 
 
 654. Did you pay back rent? I never paid back rent. There was the case 
 of a tailor who had been in an hospital ; there was a family of nine children. I 
 was told of the case at the Charity Organisation Society. It was a case that had 
 not been filled up. The people were living in a Peabody Building, where they 
 don't allow tenants to be in arrear. On my calling, the woman went into 
 hysterics. She thought upon seeing me that I had come for the rent. When 
 she recovered she said she thought it was the broker ; she said, ' We owe a 
 fortnight's rent, and they say if it is not paid to-day we must go.' I gave her 
 10s., and while I was there she sent down 9.s. to pay for that week's rent. 
 
 655. (Chairman) : Where was the husband when the woman was m 
 hysterics ? He was there ; he told me this. 
 
 656. (Mr. Loch) : A pound then was used as a substitute for the charity of 
 landlords. Might not they have been charitable instead and let the tenants 
 off? They would not have done it. 
 
 657. They would not have done it, because the landlord would not have 
 been lenient ? No. 
 
 658. Then, in a house where there are a great many tenants, and the land- 
 lord acts on a strict rule, you would possibly have had to relieve a great many 
 applicants, and the landlords would have had a large bonus for rent ? 
 
 659. Then, as to this modified system of investigation, what staff would be 
 necessary to carry it out, volunteer or other staff ? Five people would not be 
 able to do it for this district. Some one must make this investigation ? Oh 
 yes. I never could undertake it myself again. 
 
 660. What is the population of that area ? I could not say. 
 
 661. (Chairman) : Ten thousand ? I should think so. 
 
 662. You made use of a term, ' the charitable world ;' what is the 
 meaning of that term ? Do you mean that there are a class of persons in 
 London who are members of the charitable world, but who would entirely 
 disregard distress among their relations and give their alms to strangers ? 
 
 663. (Mr. Edgcombe) : Am I to understand that you did consider thrift a 
 necessary condition of your giving relief ? Reasonable thrift. 
 
 664. (Mr. Freemantle) : Was there not another reason why the case should 
 not go before the Charity Organisation Society, that able-bodied men were not 
 eligible ? Yes. 
 
 Mr. W. 
 
 VAUJVNCE. 
 
 MR. W. VALLANCE, examined. 
 
 665. (Chairman) : Mr. Vallance, you are Clerk to the WhitecLapel Board 
 of Guardians ? Yes. 
 
 666. Is your evidence going to be more particularly with regard to the 
 administration of the Poor Law, or had you anything to do with the Mansion 
 House Fund ? No, I had not. 
 
 667. Were you invited to have anything to do with it ? I assisted a little 
 the first day in the way of organisation, that is all. 
 
 668. Well now, do you live in Whitechapel ? I do not. 
 
 669. But you are there daily ? Yes. 
 
 670. Was there anything in the general aspect of the population and shops 
 to lead you to believe, apart from your knowledge as an officer of the Poor 
 Law, that there was exceptional distress ? Nothing was within my knowledge 
 at all that indicated exceptional distress, but there was the usual winter 
 distress. 
 
 671. After the establishment of the Mansion House Fund was there more
 
 41 
 
 evidence then as far as the people's aspect was evidence was there more sir. w. 
 evidence of exceptional distress ? There was no evidence within the scope of VALLANOK. 
 the Poor Law, but outside of it it was within my knowledge that large numbers June 18 1S86 
 of men were making their way towards London in the hope of securing a share 
 of what was regarded as an inexhatistible fund. 
 
 672. About what time of year did you apprehend that people were coming 
 into London 1 Since the establishment of the fund became publicly known 
 February. 
 
 673. How did you know that? From communications with the relieving 
 officers, and on one occasion I was in the country, in Hertfordshire, and, inquiring 
 there of the master of the workhouse, he told me that he was overwhelmed with 
 tramps who were making their way to London. The evidence of the relieving 
 officers was that the lodging-houses were overcrowded, and that whereas, not 
 long before, some lodging-houses were scarcely paying at all, they then got more 
 applications for admission than they could accommodate. 
 
 674. Then your opinion is that poverty was attracted to London ? Yes, 
 certainly. 
 
 675. And that some were possibly cases invited into London by the hope 
 of relief to be got 1 Yes. 
 
 676. Well now, were there more applications ? Was there nil unusual 
 number of applications for relief at your Board ? Com pared with previous years, 
 the pauperism was less. We had less real pauperism relieved in the Lady Day 
 quarter than in any previous year. 
 
 677- That was paupers relieved 1 The applications were normal, if not 
 fewer. 
 
 678. You have given your opinion to the Local Government Board on 
 February 7. You were asked to state whether there had not been an increase, 
 a 'material increase, in the number of applications forrelitf* (reading). You 
 believe that the distress was chronic or intermittent \ I do think so. 
 
 679. Did you find any difficulty in dealing with them / None whatever. 
 There was nothing exceptional about them. 
 
 680. Are you still of opinion that there was any amount of distress at that 
 time ; that it was of such a character that it could not be met by the agencies 
 existing in the East of London ? I think that the distress could have been 
 amply met by existing agencies without the aid of the Mansion House Fund. 
 
 681. (Dr. Longstajf) : Are you speaking of Whitechapel only '/ Of White- 
 chapel only. 
 
 682. (Chairman) : I am a witness from the next parish. There is always 
 more want in the winter than in summer 1 Oh yes. 
 
 683. In the event of another such alarm could an arrangement be made for 
 the way in which the work should be carried on next winter] You suggested 
 to the Local Government Board a combination with the Charity Organisation 
 Society 1 There is a perfect understanding between the guardians and the 
 Charity Organisation Society in Whitechapel. The guardians have never 
 adopted a ' no out-door relief ' policy ; but have merely endeavoured to stem the 
 tide of hereditary pauperism by guarding against permanency in Poor Law relief. 
 The guardians, however, have riot found it necessary to provide for even the 
 temporary necessities of deserving cases, by reason of the representatives of the 
 Charity Organisation Society on the board spontaneously undertaking to prevent 
 the first step in pauperism. In ' no work ' cases the guardians do not require 
 the family to enter the workhouse, but, conditional upon the man doing so, 
 voluntary charity undertakes to keep the home together ; whilst, in the event 
 of great pressure and cases arising in which there might be evidence of thrift, 
 and in which it might not be desirable even to require the man to enter the 
 workhouse, it would, in my opinion, be possible to come to an understanding with 
 the District Board of Works for the application of a labour test in the form of 
 additional cleansing of the streets, and this in the night-time. 
 
 684. Do you notice any number of small shops shut up in Whitechapel where- 
 .goods are sold 1 No, I have not personally observed it, but I am satisfied that 
 
 * Return, Pauperism and Distress (printed March 8, 1886), p. It.
 
 42 
 Mr. w. the small shopkeepers have been among the chief sufferers during the past 
 
 V.UXAXCK. 
 
 June is, 1886. G85. Did they weather it through ? That I am unable to say whether the 
 
 Mansion House Fund did help them or not. 
 
 686. Did you have any instance in which, upon an application for relief 
 being refused, the applicant said, ' Oh, I can go to the Mansion House Com- 
 mittee ' ? No. 
 
 687. You know, I think, of the adjoining parish of St. George in the East. 
 We have it from St. George in the East that there has been increased applica- 
 tion for medical relief,* &c. (reading). You believe that to be a correct statement 
 of the district between you and the river ? Yes. 
 
 688. You don't wish, I think, to say much about the Mansion House 
 Fund ? No, I know nothing personally. 
 
 689. What is the present condition of the population there now ? Are they 
 fairly employed ? Yes, equally as well employed as they usually are at this time 
 of the year. 
 
 690. Is there evidence, generally speaking, of an improved condition among 
 the population, comparing the year 1865 with the year 1885. Should you say 
 that the comforts of the people have diminished in the East of London, or arc 
 their opportunities for getting what they want less than they were ? The con- 
 dition of the poor morally and the conditions under which they exist, as compared 
 with 1870, have materially improved. 
 
 691. Now, in what respect have they improved has rent been raised upon 
 them ? Yes. 
 
 692. Has better accommodation accompanied the rise of rent ? In some cases. 
 
 693. Are the sanitary conditions better I Yes, clearly. 
 
 694. There has been less recourse to the doctor ? Yes. 
 
 695. I need hardly put the question that bread is very much cheaper, and 
 food cheaper generally and clothing ? Yes ; bread is 30 per cent, cheaper than 
 three years ago. 
 
 696. Have wages been reduced ? No, except the occupations in which women 
 labour largely. 
 
 697. The sewers have done badly ? Yes. 
 
 698. These people have gone into other occupations, have they not ? I do 
 not know whether sack-making has increased. 
 
 699. What has become of the population of ' stitch, stitch, stitch,' people, 
 those miserable people who, as we know, were engaged in stitching before the 
 machine came in ? They have largely entered into other departments of labour, 
 where they are better paid. 
 
 700. Suppose a fund similar to the Mansion House Fund had been in exist- 
 ence, and that that had been distributed for temporary assistance of the sweaters, 
 would it not have been extremely mischievous to them as a class ? Undoubtedly. 
 
 701. And would it not be so in other cases 1 Yes. 
 
 702. And to have relieved that suffering by the direct application of money 
 would have done harm ? If an example is needed, it is to be found in the cir- 
 cumstances of Whitechapel Union. Compare 1870 with 1886. In 1870 we had 
 a stone yard, and outdoor relief, and so forth. The workhouse was only re- 
 sorted to in extreme cases of absolute destitution of a home, and we had (take 
 the sixth week of the Lady Day quarter the first and second weeks in February) 
 1,419 indoor paupers and 5,339 outdoor, being a total of 6,758. In 1886 the 
 numbers were reduced to 1,309 indoor paupers, notwithstanding that 126 of 
 these were imbeciles, who are not included in the original number, and the out- 
 door were reduced to 70, of which number 54 were boarded-out children. 
 
 703. So that that leaves only 16 ordinary outdoor paupers ? Comparing 
 these two conditions of things, we had at the relief office in 1870 a clamorous 
 mob of the least deserving. It was known that outdoor relief was given in 
 response to their parade of legal right, that the guardians were exercising a dis- 
 cretion, and it became a grievance if all did not receive it. The result was that 
 we had demands for relief made in the Board-room in terms which showed that 
 they regarded outdoor relief as their legal right, since it was not an uncommon 
 
 * Keturn, Pauperism and Distress (printed March 8, 1886), p. 2S.
 
 43 
 
 thing for them to threaten the guardians to go to their master (the magistrate) Mr. w. 
 and compel them to relieve. But what is the result now 1 A case came into VAU.AXCE. 
 the Board-room (for example) very recently : a very respectable widow with four June 18 1886 
 children came and applied for relief, but when she applied it was seen at once 
 that she was hopeful for the future, for she said : ' I thought if the gentlemen 
 would take Johnny and Jimmy into the school for about three months I could get 
 along.' But what are you going to do with the other two 1 was asked. 'Well,' 
 she said, ' my sister is going to take the one three years old, and the ladies have 
 been very good and have taken the other, and I can get along if you will help 
 me.' There was that poor woman, brave enough to enter into deliberation with 
 the guardians as to her circumstances, and with their help she was able to go to 
 service and earn 18 a year. There are other cases of a similar character. The 
 poor do not come in now. The question is, ' If yon do not come into the work- 
 house what can we do to help, as we don't want you to sink down into pauperism?' 
 and the demeanour of the poor is altogether different. 
 
 704. Now you have given us some tigures showing a very great reduction in 
 the amount of relief given by the Poor Law ; has that been a continuous abate- 
 ment ? Were 1882 and 1883 larger in numbers than 1883 -84 ? In 1882 the 
 indoor was, 1,478 and the outdoor 105. 
 
 705. Now then, 1883 '21,482 indoor, 91 outdoor. 
 700. Now then, 1884 1 1,418 indoor and 77 outdoor. 
 
 707. Then 1885 ? 1,370 indoor, 74 outdoor ; and in 1886, 1,309 indoor and 
 70 outdoor. 
 
 708. Then, as far as you can gauge the existence of distress from the Poor 
 Law Returns, there is less cause for apprehension now than there ever has 
 been ? Yes. 
 
 709. You heard the expression ' charitable world ' do the charitable world 
 find their homes in the East-end of London ? I don't quite understand the 
 question. 
 
 710. I suppose that it means the people who furnish the funds for charity. 
 
 711. (Rev. Curtis Hayward) : That was not my meaning at all ; I meant 
 those who went about visiting. 
 
 712. (Cliairman) : Then (to Witness) I will ask you another question. Are 
 there many people in the East of London with sufficient means to contribute 
 not only sufficient sums to contribute largely ? Not many. 
 
 713. The incomes at the West- end are larger than at the East-end ? Yes. 
 
 714. Do you consider that to be an advantage or a disadvantage to a 
 district ? I will put a direct question. Suppose you could transfer Portman 
 Square or Grosvenor Square to the middle of Whitechapel, would you rather be 
 with it, than without it ? Without it, if it implied merely additional alms- 
 giving ; but with it for example and personal service. 
 
 715. You think the poor help the poor 1 Oh yes. 
 
 716. And that they are able to help the poor I They do help each other, 
 and the demands upon relations are greater than they would be if there was a 
 general system of indiscriminate charity. 
 
 717- I think you said that the tone of the people had been altered by a 
 uniform administration ? Yes ; the poor do understand a uniform administra- 
 tion, and the application of strict rules, especially when allied with efforts to 
 lift them out of their pauperism. 
 
 718. You know a good deal about the administration of the Poor Law in 
 other parts of London ? Merely as to results. 
 
 719. Is it not true that the proportion of pauperism is less in the poor 
 districts of London than in the rich districts ? I believe it is. I tabulated the 
 figures, but I have not got them with me. 
 
 720. Then you do not think 'the charitable world ' would be an advantage 1 
 Not its money, but its service would. 
 
 721. You would hail with pleasure any person from the West-end coming to 
 purchase a property at the East-end ? Yes. 
 
 722. (Rev. B. Lambert) : With regard to what you said as to the additional 
 cleansing of the streets, can you carry on that in dry weather ? Oh yes ; there 
 is an amount of cleanliness far beyond what the District Board would think
 
 44 
 
 Mr. W. essentially necessary. A street may be cleansed twice a week, but if it were 
 YAU.ANCE. cleansed daily it would be a great advantage. 
 
 June 18, 1886. 723. You mean to say you could get such work as would not sometimes be 
 
 mere fancy work ? I think it would be a useful work, which would not inter- 
 fere with other people. 
 
 724. You think it really would be useful work ? Possibly it might be 
 thought that it was work created for the purpose of giving it. 
 
 725. (Dr. Lonystaff) : Are you speaking of that in Whitechapel or in London 
 generally 1 Even in a well-to-do district there is a certain amount of cleansing 
 that is done now ; but if cleansing is not a daily cleansing, the introduction of 
 daily cleansing would be a great advantage. 
 
 726. (Rev. B. Lambert) : I am really seriously asking, because I tried 
 to apply it in Greenwich in times of distress, and it was not possible in dry 
 weather. Well now, another question. When you say that the condition of 
 the working classes has improved, you mean as regards the Poor Law ; you 
 don't mean to say that the working classes generally at the East-end are im- 
 proved, do you ? 1 don't know that they are earning more wages, but the 
 conditions of their life have improved during the last sixteen years. There is the 
 fact that the public-house trade has gone down very much. The poor are more 
 sober than they were, and I think too that the poor are more thrifty than they 
 were. Workers among the poor also say that rents are paid with greater regu- 
 larity than formerly, and that they put by more in savings and penny banks. 
 
 727. (Chairman) : Has not the rent of public-houses gone down I Yes ; that 
 is necessarily an evidence of the trade having diminished. 
 
 728. (Rer. B. Lambert) : I think it was you who made the statement, ' Com- 
 paring the present time with 1861 ' (reading) ; you gave evidence that there were 
 more labourers competing in the labour market, with less work to be done 1 
 I don't think that was my evidence at all. 
 
 729. Do you think there was any truth in that statement that there are more 
 labourers in the East of London, and on the whole less labour distributed 
 among them ? I don't think there can be any question about that. 
 
 730. That is so ? Yes. 
 
 731. When I was in Whitechapel there was a fairly constant supply of dock 
 labour ; and that would be casual labour ? That would be so probably. 
 
 732. Then the improvement in the labourers' condition that you spoke of ; 
 it was the moral rather than the material condition ? Yes. 
 
 733. (Chairman) : There has been larger dock labour down the river ? Yes. 
 
 734. That has naturally reduced the number of vessels coming up to the 
 London Docks ? Yes. 
 
 735. Have you ever heard that a distinct warning was given to the London 
 dock labourers that they must expect the transfer of work, and they were 
 invited to go further down the river, and they refused ? I don't know that of 
 my own knowledge ; but there has been a good deal of reluctance to follow the 
 ships, because we ask the question, and it is shown that there is a reluctance to 
 leave the neighbourhood. 
 
 736. (Canon Legge) : Can you tell me what the area is of Whitechapel ? 410 
 acres. 
 
 737. Has the population increased or diminished since 1870 ? Slightly 
 diminished. 
 
 738. I suppose there used to be loafers and cadgers in Whitechapel 
 Union ? Yes ; they have diminished materially. 
 
 739. Is that entirely because they have been improved morally, or that there 
 is any truth in the suggestion that they have gone to other unions ? Some may 
 have left the Whitechapel Union, but I must state my conviction that very few 
 have gone by reason of the strict administration of relief, because very few 
 return to Whitechapel by orders of removal. 
 
 740. Then you heard in Herts that tramps were making their way up to 
 London, and told us that some lodging-houses were fuller 1 When speaking of 
 the lodging-houses I was speaking of Whitechapel lodging-houses. 
 
 741. Tliere was a temporary increase in Whitechapel, then ? Yes. 
 
 742. And you think small shopkeepers are suffering as much as other classes :
 
 45 
 
 is there any reason for that ? I referred to the moral condition rather than the 
 pecuniary condition. I think the people are more sober, that they spend very 
 much less in the public-houses, and consequently, what they do spend they j unc is, i8sc. 
 would ordinarily spend with the shopkeepers. , 
 
 743. That would tend to increase the trade of the small shopkeepers 1 
 Yes ; but during the winter, when the poor have not money, then of course the 
 shopkeepers suffer. 
 
 744. Are any co-operative stores started there ? No, I think not. 
 
 745. You mentioned that women's labour is less well remunerated than for- 
 merly ? Yes. 
 
 746. Is that in consequence of relief being given to widows generally ? It 
 is very difficult to attribute it to that. There is no doubt, speaking generally, 
 that the grant of outdoor relief to widows must necessarily affect the rate of 
 wages, because they are able to live for so much less. At the same time it is 
 difficult to assume that the policy of administration would transfer a certain 
 amount of labour from one class to another. 
 
 747. If the Whitechapel guardians gave freely to the widows it would lower 
 the rate of wages 1 Yes. 
 
 748. Have you any idea of the cost 1 In the sixth week of the Lady Day 
 quarter, 1870, the amount given in out-relief was 168. 17s. 4d. 
 
 749. I asked the question because you said that through the Charity 
 Organisation Society there is an administration of private charity. Has that 
 charity administered that amount of outdoor relief 1 No ; the Charity Organi- 
 sation Society does not undertake the general relief of destitution, but merely 
 to bring charitable help to bear upon the deserving poor whom it is desirable 
 to save from the Poor Law, or for whom there is hope of doing a permanent 
 good. 
 
 750. 168. 17s. 4fZ. was being distributed in relief by the guardians ; do 
 you suppose that at the present time nothing like that is being distributed 
 now? No, they are largely thrown upon their own resources and upon their 
 friends. 
 
 751. There is no labour yard 1 No. 
 
 752. Would a labour yard be a help '?- There may be circumstances under 
 which guardians would be justified in opening an outdoor labour yard, but I 
 think the circumstances are little likely to arise if the administration is uni- 
 form. I lay stress upon it because we attribute to that our success. We have 
 been uniform ; there has been no division of the Board. Guardians have de- 
 cided upon doing the right thing for the poor, and applying uniformly what 
 they regard as sound principles in Poor Law administration. 
 
 753. Was it not decided some years ago that in the Whitechapel Union 
 there should be no labour yard, but in Poplar there has been one almost exclu- 
 sively for that 1 The Poplar Union were some years ago authorised to make 
 contracts with other unions for their able-bodied paupers. 
 
 754. (Chairman') : Do you make use of the Poplar Union 1 No ; not 
 at all. 
 
 755. (Mr. Hedley) : The Poplar Guardians now require the Poplar Union 
 yard for themselves. 
 
 756. (Rev. B. Lambert} : Were there any more paupers in the quarter 
 immediately before I Did the Mansion House Fund relieve your applications at 
 all ? No, they are tolerably even. 
 
 757. (Chairman] : The figures you gave us were for the year, I think ? 
 That was for the week, sir the sixth week of the Lady Day quarter. 
 
 758. (Rev. W. Curtis Hayward) : I think you said you have a good many 
 dock labourers ; has there not been exceptional distress among them ? No, 
 not exceptional. There has been distress, the usual winter distress among those 
 calling themselves dock labourers. If you get an exceptional spell of severe 
 weather, there is more severe distress. 
 
 759. Has there been no depression in the shipping trade ? I thought that 
 here had been ? There has been depression in the shipping trade in some parts 
 
 of England, I believe, but I don't know that there has been on the Thames. 
 
 760. (Mr. Edgcom.be) : No exceptional distress in Whitechapel I No.
 
 46 
 
 Mr ' w. 761. If there should be, how would you deal with it I I think] the ordinary 
 
 VALIANCE. a g enc i es can deal with it. 
 
 June 18, 1886. 762. Going to another question : the administration of the Poor Law is 
 
 uniform ; I suppose there are no Belief Committees of the Board I We have 
 no Belief Committees. 
 
 763. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : You think that putting on men to sweep the streets 
 at night will meet the difficulty ? Yes. 
 
 764. Why at night ? To remove the more deserving from the public gaze, 
 and to leave them free to look out for themselves the following day. If they 
 work through the night the more deserving would accept that form of relief. 
 
 765. Would there not be a difficulty in superintending the labour at night ? 
 Yes, unless there is an understanding with the local authority. I don't 
 apprehend any difficulty of that kind. I have the figures as to the work offered 
 under the Mansion House Fund (reading extracts). 
 
 766. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : These people were put on by the Vestry ? No, the 
 Vestry provided the supervision. 
 
 767. Who paid ? The Mansion House Fund. The one condition was that 
 they should work and receive wages. 
 
 768. But in the event of the fund not being raised again, the Vestiy would 
 have to pay a man if they put him on at right .'No ; I should be sorry to see 
 the Vestry become a duplicate authority for the relief of distress. The excep- 
 tion of admitting the head of a family to the workhouse, and making the 
 admission of the head of the family a condition of charitable relief to the 
 family itself admitting that, and admitting that there were deserving cases 
 in which the head of the family should not be required to enter the workhouse, 
 the charity agency would say, ' We will give a recommendation to the District 
 Board,' and then under certain conditions he would receive his relief from the 
 charity agency. 
 
 769. (Mr. Hedley) : Is it not a fact that the dock labourers are never in 
 permanent employ 1 For the most part it is so. 
 
 770. ( Chairman) : You said those calling themselves dock labourers. I 
 know, there are a certain staff of men who are known to be handy men, and 
 there are a great number of men who apply from day to day 1 Men who call 
 themselves dock labourers, but who have belonged to every other trade. 
 
 771. (Chairman) : Up to a clergyman ? Possibly, sir. 
 
 772. (Mr. Hedley) : Might not these men always call themselves out-of- 
 work labourers ? Yes. 
 
 773. Are you aware that there is more work done in the docks in the winter 
 than in the summer, or in summer than in the winter ? I believe it is so to 
 some extent. 
 
 774. (Chairman) : It used to be affected by a wind ; a west wind would put 
 these men in great difficulties ; but now most ships are assisted up the river, 
 and I can say that the labour is more regular than it used to be. 
 
 775. (Mr. Hedley) : Are the number of ships very much less in the winter 
 than in the summer ? I think not ; but, of course, adverse winds and severe 
 weather have a marked effect. 
 
 776. (Chairman) : There is an immense amount of wool taken to the London 
 Docks. Do you not know that there has been a very, very large increase of 
 building round the London Docks for the reception of that, and it involves a 
 very large sum of money? I know the wool warehouses have increased. 
 
 777. You would take that as evidence of a larger amount of labour required 
 in the docks ? 
 
 778. (Rev. B. Lambert) : To a great extent labour is done by machinery. 
 The hand labour has decreased. 
 
 770. (Mr. Hedley) : "Was it the fact that the demand for labour in the docks 
 in March was less than it was in June ? We had no increase of applications 
 from this class during the former month. 
 
 780. (Mr. Peters) : Have you reason to believe that there has been increasing 
 distress among the class above that ? I have not formed the opinion that 
 there has been exceptional distress among any class of the poor. There are 
 classes of poor who do suffer, and suffer acutely ; but it cannot, I think, be 
 said that in any special section the distress has been exceptional.
 
 47 
 
 781. (Rev. W . Curtis Mayivard) : Is trade the same as it was ten years Mr. w. 
 a gO '?_No. VAU.AXCE. 
 
 782. (Mr. Fremantle) : Is there a similar moral improvement in the rate- June is, 1886. 
 p ayers 1 Is the improved system of Poor Law administration apparent in the 
 
 class above the pauper class? The Poor Law guardians would not have been 
 able to carry on their work successfully without the sympathy of those outside. 
 When it was found that the ultimate object of the guardians was to draw a 
 distinction between pauper relief and charitable assistance, definiteness of aim 
 was given to both Poor Law administrators and voluntary workers, whilst co- 
 operation between the two agencies was in no small measure promoted. The 
 diminution which has taken place in Whitechapel pauperism is largely attri- 
 butable to the earnest efforts of voluntary workers to redeem the poor from 
 pauperism and dependence. 
 
 783. This improved care for the 'poor, this greater sense of obligation to 
 care for the poor belonging to them, does that result from the action of people 
 in Whitechapel or people from outside? Much, I think, from the outside 
 ladies from the West-end of London. But there is some increase of sympathy 
 inside. 
 
 784. Do you think it is any way possible that the opening of the Mansion 
 House Fund could have diminished your applications at Whitechapel 1 As a 
 fact the applications did not increase. The applications by reason of the uni- 
 formity of administration were tolerably regular. 
 
 785. With respect to medical orders, you'told us the total number of people 
 in receipt of outdoor relief in 1870, does that include medical aid ? None of 
 those figures included medical relief only. 
 
 786. Then the practice of giving orders for meat and grocery is seldom 
 resorted to at Whitechapel ? Very seldom. 
 
 787. (Chairman) : Have you a number of medical cases in that report ? No ; 
 not cases of medical relief only. 
 
 788. (Mr. Fremantle) : Can you tell us the number of medical cases ? The 
 number of medical orders given in 1885 was 3,284 ; in the previous year 3,109. 
 
 789. Do you think on the whole that the sanitary surroundings of the popu- 
 lation have improved 1 Yes, undoubtedly. 
 
 790. Do you know whether friendly societies have spread in Whitechapel 
 or not ? I am afraid they are not spreading to any appreciable extent. Where 
 medical orders are granted the condition is usually attached that the man shall 
 make an effort to get into a sick club. 
 
 791. Have you ever recovered the money given for medical relief on loan ? 
 Not by legal proceedings. 
 
 792. (Mr. Loch) : You have heard what Mr. Curtis Hayward said of Soho, 
 and you have described the plan of co-operation with charity that you had 
 found to answer in Whitechapel ; was anything related about Soho that made 
 you think that your plan would not answer there 1 Not at all. 
 
 793. Have you found that the Charity Organisation Society were too 
 rigorous in their inquiry ? We have never had to complain of it . 
 
 794. Do you think that the charitable relief which was distributed last 
 winter among the poor would create that feeling of dependence and expectation 
 to receive relief which was formerly stimulated by ill-administered Poor Law 
 relief charitable societies would bring about the same evils as the ill- admini- 
 stered Poor Law 1 I do. 
 
 795. So that you think the tendency of these funds would be to repeat the 
 old evils in a new fashion ? I do. 
 
 796. Could we avoid a popular scare by having, so to speak, a weather 
 gauge 1 It might be possible. 
 
 797. You think the panic arises from an inexact knowledge of facts ? 
 Yes, in some measure, but with an exact knowledge of facts you cannot always 
 restrain impulsive benevolence. 
 
 798. Would you in a time of distress substitute for the labour yard the 
 parish charity labour which you spoke of ? Yes, I think that the function of 
 the Poor Law should be clearly denned that the Poor Law is designed to 
 relieve destitution, and that that relief is given in obedience to a claim which the
 
 48 
 
 Mr. w. poor are legally entitled to urge, and, that so, the question of the individual is 
 
 VALLAXCE. not primary in the matter at all ; but the question is what is good for the com- 
 
 Jtme IB 1886. munity. What do the interests of the community require in this case ? To 
 
 put bread into a man's mouth to-day, knowing that he will be hungry again 
 
 to-morrow ? What is done should be done in the interests of the community 
 
 and not the man. We should try to lift the poor out of their condition ; to 
 
 aid them permanently and effectually, and remove the cause of distress rather 
 
 than relieve the distress itself. 
 
 799. Do you think that there is any difficulty or very great difficulty in 
 bringing about the co-operation of the guardians and the District Board I The 
 suggestion was made in the case of the Mansion House Committee, and with 
 the exception of day instead of night work it was carried out. 
 
 800. (Chairman) : It gives trouble, does it not ? Oh yes. 
 
 801. (Mr. Loch) : As a matter of fact as to the relief of applicants for relief 
 do you think that the poor in Whitechapel are better relieved now then they 
 were ? I have no doubt of it ; the wants of the deserving poor are better met 
 now than formerly. 
 
 802. You would not approve of the relaxation of your principles ? I would 
 not. 
 
 803. (Chairman) : And you have never been called upon to relax them ? 
 No. 
 
 804. (Mr. Loch) : You think that the charitable aid that will come to the 
 relief of the guardians will meet the whole difference ? I do. 
 
 805. If charitable effort were brought in you would apply thrift tests, and 
 so on, and you don't think there is anything like that that might not be applied 
 to other districts ? I do not. 
 
 806. Take Mr. Curtis Hayward's evidence as to Soho, do you think that 
 system of applying the thrift test could be carried out more regularly than it 
 there was ? 
 
 807. (Mr. Hayward) : How would you put a tailor or a silversmith to sweep 
 the streets ? 
 
 808. (Mr. Loch) : In those cases of artizans could you apply the charity 
 labour to them I You could not apply the charity labour to every class, but to 
 the large bulk you could. Where a man's hand was delicate there is no reason 
 why an exceptional case should not be made of it ; but there is no hardship in 
 taking the broom. 
 
 809. Though you had workmen of a better class, there would be no 
 difficulty in giving them work that they could do ? In the case of the Mansion 
 House Fund there were exceptional cases, and we were asked to assist, and we 
 assisted to the extent of giving the Committee a contract for cleaning windows 
 which we had before given to a West- end association, and we paid the Com- 
 mittee for it. In other cases we set them to do work which would not ordi- 
 narily be done the cleaning-out and re-arranging certain stores, whitewashing, 
 and repairing, and so forth. 
 
 810. (Chairman) : Then you transferred the distress to the West-end by 
 employing them instead of the West-end Association. 
 
 8J 1. (Mr. Peters) : You think it is desirable to apply the labour test in the 
 case of non-provident men ? Yes, it is specially a workhouse test. 
 
 812. (Mr. Hedley) : Did you say you strove to make men join benefit 
 clubs 1 Did you recommend any as thoroughly sound ? No. 
 
 813. Are you aware of any clubs that are open for dock labourers to join 
 anywhere in the East-end, that you believe solvent and sound, other than the 
 Hearts of Oak and the large ones '? No, I am afraid I cannot. 
 
 814. (diairman) : Are there any purely medical clubs ? Yes, at the 
 dispensaries. 
 
 (The Committee then adjourned.)
 
 49 
 
 FRIDAY, 25TH JUNE, 1836 
 Present SIR J. TILLEY, in the Chair. 
 
 Mr. F. J. S. EDGCOMBE, Mr. A. G. CHOWDER, 
 
 Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD, Mr. E. PETERS, 
 
 Mr. J. H. ALLEN, Dr. G. B. LONGSTAFF, and 
 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 MR. T. GAGE GARDINER, examined. 
 
 815. (Chairman): What particular district do you represent? St. Mary's, 
 Newington. 
 
 816. Are there any particular points on which you wish to give evidence ? 
 No, I think not ; but, as to the working of the Mansion House Fund in 
 Newington, I have come to a general conclusion. 
 
 817. Were you one of the almoners of the Union ? Yes ; for the whole of that 
 part of the Union. 
 
 818. Did you know anything of any particular distress in that district last 
 winter ? I think from the work of the Charity Organisation Society that times 
 were a little harder than usual, but I was of opinion that it was undesirable to 
 create a fund, which I thought would do more harm than good. 
 
 819. You rather took it up in the hope of minimising the evil ? Exactly. 
 
 820. What amount of money was intrusted to you in the first instance I 
 The first cheque we had was 150 ; the entire sum was 2,100. 
 
 821. And, in distributing that, did you adhere to the Mansion House rules 
 that were laid down by the Committee, indicating the sort of persons who were 
 to be relieved, and the sort who were not ? Yes ; approximately. Before the 
 Mansion House Fund sent down rules we had formed our own. We relieved 
 a great many chronic cases, in spite of the rules ; and the Committee sys- 
 tematically supplemented parish relief, so far as regards the labour-yard. They 
 regarded it as a test of the man's willingness to work, and as to his respecta- 
 bility. 
 
 822. In other words, you relieved people who could have been relieved by 
 the Poor Law that were being relieved 'I Yes ; and we carried it to some 
 distance, because we wished to make it a test. After they had given relief 
 for three or four weeks, some of the members proposed to make it a test that a 
 man, before receiving more, must be able to show that he had done two days' 
 work in the labour-yard ; but that was overruled. 
 
 823. But I suppose you did not communicate much with the relieving 
 officers before you began to distribute the fund 1 The first two or three days we 
 found it practically impossible to do so, because Mr. Walrond came down and 
 insisted that, if we carried out our rules, there would be too great delay. Public 
 opinion would not stand so much care being taken, and therefore we deviated 
 to some extent from our scheme ; and we literally at first had not sufficient staff 
 to make up our lists and send them to the relieving officers, but after the first 
 three or four days we sent the list to them daily, and they marked it off. 
 
 824. Then, after a short time, the fund was better distributed? It gradually 
 improved, till at the last it was fairly well administered, because the Committee 
 by that time had acquired some experience of that kind of work. 
 
 825. Upon the whole, were there any cases that you relieved which could 
 have been equally well relieved by the Poor Law ? Yes ; one can commonly 
 tell by the applicant's appearance whether he is a parish case or not ; and the 
 great bulk of the cases that came at first were parish cases ; while the artisan 
 would not come near us. But as time went on, and as the application of the 
 rules became more rigorous and more careful, a better class of men did come, 
 until at last the good cases were, I should say, in a decided majority over the 
 Poor Law cases.
 
 50 
 
 Mr. T. G.w. 826. After you received the Mansion House rules you adhered to them 1 
 
 nuixKK. y eg . ^6 chairman insisted on rigorously holding us to those rules. 
 
 June 25, 18S6. 827. How did applications come before you ? Were they given by person or 
 
 by letter ? The Committee determined to set up a big board over the office, 
 which was in the main street of the neighbourhood, and that attracted people. 
 We insisted that the head of the family should come. 
 
 828. Had you only one office ? Yes. 
 
 829. What is the population ? 107,000. 
 
 830. How many applicants came ? 2,026, exclusive of some common lodging- 
 house cases, of which we took no heed whatever. 
 
 831. Each applicant was seen by some representative of the Committee, and 
 his application taken down ? At first we attempted an application form of the 
 Charity Organisation kind. 
 
 832. Did you succeed in getting the information by taking it down as the 
 Charity Organisation Society would take it down ? No ; because the members 
 of the Committee did not know how to do it, and this form we had to reject. 
 
 833. And suppose they had been willing, could they have taken all the 
 applications at one office ? No ; we should have had to take another office. I 
 was anxious to do it, but the Committee did not agree with me. 
 
 834. What amount of inquiry did you make on each occasion ? We had a 
 staff of eleven inquiry agents, five clerks, and five messengers. The inquiry 
 came to this : the house was visited, inquiry was made of the relieving officer, 
 and a reference was seen ; and upon that relief was given upon for one occasion. 
 
 835. Was the employer seen ? Generally not ; before relief was given again, 
 however, if we had any doubt about the person, we communicated with the 
 employer by letter. 
 
 83d. Were those letters responded to usually ? Yes ; but I should say that 
 the inquiry of the employer was not made so frequently as it ought to have been 
 made. 
 
 837. Before what tribunal did the cases go ? Before a Committee consisting 
 of two or three people. 
 
 838. And they decided to relieve and how much to relieve ? The General 
 Committee adopted a scale, which was roughly adhered to, and the scale was 
 taken from the exceptional distress paper published by the Council of the 
 Charity Organisation Society.* 
 
 839. The Committee had upon it Poor Law Guardians ? Yes ; one of the 
 Guardians was the most vigorous member Mr. Dover. 
 
 840. You were not able at first to communicate with the relieving officers ? 
 No ; but during the remainder of the five weeks after the first few days, I 
 think. There is a labour-yard open every winter, which is still open. The 
 Guardians have tried to close it, but they say they cannot. 
 
 841. Have you any suggestions to make as to what you would do 1 If I 
 could prevent the formation of a fund, I would do so. 
 
 842. How would you meet the distress what would -you do 1 In the main 
 I should rely upon the Poor Law. For the rest the hands of the charitable 
 agencies now at work in London would naturally be strengthened. 
 
 843. Suppose a great distress occurred like the Manchester distress ? I am 
 not prepared to answer that question. 
 
 844. Perhaps your answer would come to this ; that in case of exceptional 
 distress the provision should be different from that for ordinary severe dis- 
 tress ? For the last I would make no provision whatever. So far as I can see 
 at present, the case of flood and fire is the only case of exceptional distress 
 which would be considered by me. 
 
 845. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : Your Committee was not the Charity Organisation 
 Committee 1 No. 
 
 846. Who formed it ? It was formed by the guardians and all the clergy- 
 men holding benefices in the two parishes of St. Saviour's Union, with the 
 Nonconformist clergy in addition. 
 
 847. How were they appointed ? Did they appoint themselves ? In the 
 
 * ' Suggestions for dealing with Exceptional Distress.' December 184.
 
 51 
 
 first instance a meeting was called at the Mansion House on February 15. A Mr. T. (UGK 
 Committee was then appointed for the whole of St. Saviour's Union ; the St. G.VHDIXKR. 
 Saviour's Union Committee, of which I was one, subsequently held a meeting, Junc "5 1886 
 and resolved themselves into two Committees. We who 3imed the Committee 
 for St. Mary's, Newington, nominated a large number of persons whose names 
 occurred to us. 
 
 848. Did you think it a satisfactory way of distributing relief ? No, most 
 unsatisfactory. 
 
 849. You prefer it in fewer hands ? Very much. 
 
 850. Would it be possible to have a charity labour-test in your union ? On 
 this recent occasion I was most anxious to try something of the kind, but could 
 not obtain the means. There were very few spaces (if any) which could have 
 been cleared by Lord Brabazon's association. 
 
 851. Suppose the vestry had allowed you to sweep the streets at night, 
 would you have tried that 1 That, personally, I should have liked to try ; but 
 it was not suggested that it be done at night. 
 
 852. Would not that interfere with the contractor? Yes ; and I think there 
 woxild also be this other objection to doing it in the daytime your really respect- 
 able artisan would object to be seen by his friends sweeping the streets. 
 
 853. There is no possibility of getting a charity labour-test in your union 1 
 I was not able to get one. 
 
 854. Is the labour-yard open now, do you say 1 Yes ; the Guardians closed 
 it twice (I believe) and re-opened it. 
 
 855. (Mr. A. G. Crowder) : Is it your opinion, with regard to the labour- 
 yard, that the public would not be satisfied with the relief being administered 
 entirely in that way if the labour-yard were large enough 1 I am afraid it is 
 too reasonable, and not sufficiently sentimental. 
 
 856. Did any other form of test except a labour-test of destitution occur to 
 you ? No. 
 
 857. (Dr. Lonqstaff) : You think, Mr. Gardiner, the Committee went 
 against the rules of the Mansion House Fund in the way in which they made 
 use of the labour-yard, and the way in which they relieved chronic cases ? 
 Yes. 
 
 858. And were you in harmony with the Committee, or opposed to them 1 
 I was distinctly opposed to them in regard to the relief of chronic cases. The 
 number of applications made to us was 2,026. Of these they attempted to 
 relieve 1,574, but of that 1,574 to 295 they gave single sums of 2s. 6d. or 5s., 
 and gave them no more ; so that it would be fair to say that out of 2,026 they 
 relieved about half. That, to my mind, was too large a proportion, and included 
 a great many chronic cases. They would occasionally relieve the family of a man 
 who was a known drinker, and when remonstrated with, said they must think 
 of the wife and family. 
 
 859. Then I take it, Mr. Gage Gardiner, you were part of a minority on 
 your Committee, and that your influence with the Committee slowly increased ? 
 At first they looked upon my views as a hobby, or a fad. 
 
 860. And they gradually learned that there was something in your fads ? 
 Yes, 
 
 861. They found themselves deceived ? Yes ; when some of these gentle- 
 men tackled an applicant they did not know what questions to ask him. On 
 the first day a man came in who was a thorough soaker, and had sixteen shillings 
 given him there and then. I protested. A member of Committee said yes, no 
 doubt he drank, but the weather was cold, and he had a large family, and we 
 must relieve the distress. 
 
 862. That was given in money 1 Yes ; but afterwards the relief was often 
 given in kind. 
 
 863. Your principle was to give in money ? Partly in money and partly in 
 kind. 
 
 864. Do you think there was any advantage in giving in kind 1 I think the 
 advantage was very slight ; the tickets were sold. 
 
 865. You know that for drink ? I don't know that they were sold for 
 drink, but they were sold.
 
 52 
 
 Mr. T. GAOK 866. Have you any reason to believe that any portion of the sum went to 
 
 GABDIXKR. the benefit of the public-houses ? I cannot prove it ; but I have seen men come 
 June 25 1880. back to the office very much the worse for drink after having received it. 
 
 867. Is it your opinion that the existing agencies could have been expanded 
 for the occasion to meet the extra work, and could have done the work better 
 than these Committees did scratch Committees ? I certainly think so. 
 
 868. Could you have got assistance from the Newmgton Committee of 
 the Charity Organisation Society I I think their hands could have been 
 strengthened. The difference, to my mind, is this. Owing to the action of 
 the Mansion House Committee a large number of persons, entirely unaccustomed 
 to dealing with distress, were called together and forced to administer a 
 large sum of money on the large scheme. If the other plan had been adopted 
 to use existing associations you would have had people of some ex- 
 perience. 
 
 869. Of the rules that you adopted, are there any which experience has 
 taught you were of importance, and some which might have been omitted ? I 
 think it was of importance that the head of the family should be required to 
 attend at the office. I do not think that any of the rules that we made should 
 have been omitted. 
 
 870. You think it necessary to work upon principle in each case ? Yes ; and 
 that the Committee should bind themselves to stand by their principles. I had 
 great difficulty in getting the Committee to do that. They guarded themselves ; 
 that is, they refused to call their rules rules, but they called them general 
 principles of relief. 
 
 871. Have you any evidence yourself of there being dearth, of work in 
 Newington, now ? I cannot say that 1 know that the dearth of work is greater 
 this year than last year, but district visitors and clergymen are constantly telling 
 me that there are more people out of work than usual. 
 
 872. Your experience at the Charity Organisation Society does not give you 
 evidence one way or the other ? No ; because it is generally known that we 
 do not relieve people whose distress is caused by being out of work. 
 
 873. (Mr. Loch) : Do I understand that these are the rules adopted by the 
 Committee, and not the Mansion House rules ? No ; the principle is the same, 
 because the rules which we drew up came for the most part from the Council 
 of the Charity Organisation Society, and the rules of the Mansion House had 
 practically the same source. 
 
 874. Taking some of these heads, ' No question of payment of rent to be 
 entertained' can that be enforced? No; we subsequently, systematically, 
 would pay the current rent. For some time the Committee would not, but ifc 
 was found that a part of the relief almost always went in rent. They refused 
 to believe that that was the case, but I was often present when the applicant 
 came a second time, and I asked him how he had spent his money, and the 
 Committee found that some did go in rent, and the landlords therefore benefited. 
 
 875. (Dr. Longstaff) : Would you still maintain the rule against rent ? 
 I would pay current rent, but not back rent. 
 
 876. As a matter of fact, apart from the payment of current rent, when 
 you gave more than enough to meet current rent, did the balance go tu the 
 landlord ? Very seldom : I should say generally not. The landlord was satisfied 
 when he got the week's rent. 
 
 877. Taking the next ' That it is desirable to reinstate men fallen out of 
 clubs and benefit societies' I suppose the larger number were not benefit 
 society cases ? The majority were not benefit society cases. As a matter of 
 fact, out of 1,850 received we spent 140 on clubs. 
 
 878. At what period of time did that occur I That was in the last fortnight 
 or three weeks. 
 
 879. As the work got better done this form of relief was given ? Yes ; it 
 was partly for this reason. I was very much distressed to see the way in 
 which the money was being squandered, and I thought that what was put into 
 clubs was wisely used : at my instance a large number of men were placed in 
 clubs who had never been there before. We paid the entrance fee and first 
 quarter's subscription.
 
 53 
 
 880. (Mr. J. H. Allen): Could people keep up their subscriptions ? Not Mr. T. GAGE 
 
 GABDIXER. 
 
 always. But it was a safe place for the money. It could do no harm ; it 
 
 benefited the clubs, and, in that way, the working classes. .Tune 25, 1886. 
 
 881. Did you spend any money on emigration ? Only one small sum, though 
 I proposed it many times. But we spent money on migration. 
 
 882. (Chairman) : Have you any evidence that rents were raised in conse- 
 quence of the Mansion House Fund ? I have no evidence. 
 
 883. (Mr. Loch) : Do you think that the test of belonging to a club is of any 
 value in taking down the case ? Distinctly. 
 
 884. Judging from your experience, did you find that that could be utilised 
 as a first sifting of cases ? I was always in favour of giving a larger amount 
 of relief to a man who was in a club than to a man who was not, even if we 
 had not made any inquiries before. 
 
 885. If it became generally known in a time of pressure that men 
 belonging to clubs would have favourable consideration given to their cases, 
 would it be a good method of parting those who should be assisted from those 
 who should not ? Certainly : I went so far, towards the end of the fund, as to 
 propose to the Committee that we should not relieve anybody who had not 
 been within the last two years a member of a benefit society. The proposal 
 was rejected on the ground that it was too hard and fast a line. 
 
 886. (Mr. Peters) : Did not the Mansion House Fund deal with that ? 
 
 887. (Rev. Curtis Hayward) : Would you not in that way exclude some of 
 the most undoubted, if not the most deserving cases ? Would it not have been 
 found that they could not keep up the club? These are the people who most 
 want you I I do not think so. The limit was wide. Anyone who had belonged 
 to a club within two years was to be eligible. 
 
 888. Do you not think this distress was coining on for more than two years ? 
 I hardly like to express an opinion. But I think the decent, provident man 
 would not have fallen out of his club two years ago. 1 do know this. I know 
 a man who was placed in a club two years ago ; that man has a wife and 
 four young children, and though he is only having 1 a week, he has kept up 
 that club. It must be remembered that from the Benevolent Fund of the club 
 members' subscriptions are sometimes paid. 
 
 889. (Mr. Loch) : I understand that a very large number of people who 
 applied were those who ought to have been left to the Poor Law ? Yes. 
 
 890. Then, in the first place, there were a certain proportion of benefit 
 society's men. Between these and those that ought to have been left to the Poor 
 Law there was a section to which thrift-tests of various kinds might have been 
 applied e.g., as to having a large number of things in pawn, owing to the 
 pressure of distress 1 We always regarded that as evidence of respectability. 
 
 891. And you had not any difficulty in applying that test in the main the 
 difficulty in the way of investigation ? No ; properly asked, people had no 
 objection to such inquiry. 
 
 892. Is there any other way in which, speaking roughly, you could dis- 
 criminate between the suitable and unsuitable cases would the neighbour- 
 hood the class of cottage or house he occupied, be a test of value ? It is to people 
 thoroughly well acquainted with the district. What I found was that those who 
 worked the Mansion House Fund were unacquainted with the various streets 
 in their parish. One man would know one, and another another, and if the 
 whole Committee had been present every day they would have been of great 
 value ; but the number of gentlemen who fairly regularly attended was only four 
 or five out of forty-five members. 
 
 893. With regard to the test of the labour-yard, were the payments to the 
 workers and their families sufficient to meet any prejudice there might be in 
 the minds of the public as to the workers starving, even though they were 
 receiving relief ? Our guardians do not give money to those who are working 
 in the labour-yard. They relieve in kind. 
 
 894. Would there be a feeling of security that cases referred to the labour- 
 yard could be left to the Poor Law authorities, so that there would be a clear 
 division between charity and the Poor Law in that matter ? I don't think the 
 public would be content with that course. 
 
 P
 
 895. But even if the amount given, whether in money or kind, was a con- 
 siderable amount, amounting to 2s. 6d. or 2s. a day, which was what was paid 
 
 June 25, issfi. by the Wandsworth guardians in relief work ? I should say you would not get 
 the St. Saviour's Union guardians to give such relief. 
 
 896. So that the test of the Poor Law labour fails because of the amount 
 paid in relief ? Yes ; and because of popular prejudice. I don't know how far 
 it would go in times of pressure. 
 
 897. One experiment which was tried in the year 183G was that the people 
 who were in distress were invited to come to the workhouse and board there 
 for the day, receiving their meals and working there. This acted as a strong 
 deterrent, and not a single case of starvation occurred. Would such a thing be 
 practicable in a London union ? I am not prepared to answer the question. 
 
 898. If there was that amount of exceptional distress which would not justify 
 a large fund, but might create a real pressure upon Charities, would you 
 suggest that money should be collected in a private manner ? We do not want 
 to create applicants, but to relieve distress. It would be better if the money 
 could be collected privately than by advertisement. 
 
 899. How would you propose to extend the Charity Organisation Society 
 Committee, if you had had it in your own hands this year ? I should have tried 
 to get some of the old workers to return for the time ; and I should have 
 asked some of the more experienced district visitors in the various parishes for 
 their special help. 
 
 900. In that way you would have got together a band of ten or twenty 
 workers ? I should think I might have got together fifteen to twenty workers. 
 
 901. Working on that plan, you might have always kept before you some of 
 the final results, and relieved such as were provident, and barred the de- 
 faulters altogether, or would you have had to set that aside ? I think it would 
 have had to be set aside. I don't think the Charity Organisation Society 
 Committees would adhere to their principles if large sums were coming in again. 
 
 902. Really, then, it is a fact that a large sum of money is undesirable ? 
 Yes ; and the unreasoning kindness with which it is administered. 
 
 903. (Chairman) : In other words, the fund demoralises those who give, as 
 well as those who receive. 
 
 904. (Mr. Loch) : The fact is that statements are made in this or that paper, 
 and there is a sort of hot feeling in the public mind that something must be 
 done. Do you think it would be possible for a supply of information to be 
 obtained from employers and employes, too, which could be put before the 
 public systematically, so that we might have a weather gauge, as it were, 
 if there really was distress 1 I have considered that question, but cannot 
 answer it. 
 
 905. Would the employers in Newington have helped you if we had, earlier 
 in the winter, tried to obtain information ? I could have got information from, 
 I believe, some of the largest employers. 
 
 906. That would have been of real value as a test, would it not ? Yes, I 
 think it would. I cannot see why the pauperism returns are not a good indica- 
 tion. The guardians of St. Saviour's Union published a comparative return, up 
 to a certain date in February, for . four years. That return showed that the 
 number of paupers in 1886 was smaller than it had been in any of the three 
 years preceding ; and it appears to me that there you ought to find a good 
 test. It is commonly said, and is perfectly true, that the better class artisan 
 will suffer the direst possible poverty before applying to the guardians, but you 
 must remember that he deals with people in the social scale rather below him, 
 and they again deal similarly in their turn, so that if there is real distress among 
 the class of people to whom alone we think charitable contributions should go, 
 if to anybody, that must be shown by the Poor Law return. 
 
 907. If you were going to get information, would you go to a large employer 
 or a small employer II should go to both. 
 
 908. Do not the large men continue their business while the smaller men 
 stop ? Cubitt does not fail, but the small builders failed. Just so ; but Cubitt 
 diminishes the number of his hands. Hands whom he had employed for years 
 had been temporarily struck off this year for the first time, as I was told.
 
 55 
 
 909. (Rev. Curtis Hayward) : And yet you say there was not exceptional 
 distress '! It depends on what you call exceptional distress. 
 
 910. It was not the weather that threw them out, was it ? It was in the June 25, 1856. 
 time of cold weather that I came across two or three of these workpeople. 
 
 911. But there is a general depression in trade, is there not? Most 
 certainly. 
 
 912. (Mr. Loch) : Granting that the Poor Law returns might be taken as a 
 test of the amount of distress, was it not the case that in the past winter there 
 was a good deal of distress among better-class artisans, that upper end of the 
 scale ?' Yes ; but generally the better class of artisans was not reached by the 
 Mansion House Fund, as it was administered in St. Mary's, Newington. 
 
 913. I noted that. And, first of all, could we not have learned from the 
 friendly societies and building societies as to that upper class of distress 1 Yes ; 
 in fact an attempt was made with some of these societies. 
 
 914. Too late 1 Not in November or December ? No. 
 
 915. If we had gone to them we must have learned who was in distress, and 
 could we not have relieved them better ? I think their information would have 
 been a valuable indication as to the want among the better class of working 
 men. 
 
 910. Did you have any working men on your Committee, or in co-operation 
 with you ? We had one who never came to the Committee because before he 
 joined the Committee had resolved to do their work in the day-time, and not 
 at night. 
 
 917. (Dr. Longstaff) : Mr. Curtis Hayward has referred to depression in 
 trade, and you have also. Is it not possible that there might be considerable 
 depression of trade, and very few artisans be effected ? I think it possible, but 
 hardly likely. 
 
 918. Is it not a fact that large houses now are doing work at a very small 
 rate of profit ? I don't know whether employers or employed are suffering most. 
 I have no doubt that people are supplied, and profits are low, and that wages 
 have come down ; but also inferior hands have been discharged. I don't know 
 what it may be in the north, but I know this, that a great many men are 
 temporarily dismissed on account of slackness of work. I know a man well who 
 is now out of work, and who had for years been continuously employed. He 
 had been employed at the docks on a superior class of work. Together with 
 a mate he was discharged in January, the men being told that their services 
 would not be wanted again till July. Immediately afterwards the employer 
 subscribed fifty guineas to the fund for the unemployed. 
 
 919. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : Does not the pressure show the need of emigration 
 to assist the good class of men out of work ? That question I am not ready to 
 answer ; but it does show, I should say, the necessity of teaching the working 
 people some means of limiting the number of their families. 
 
 920. If you cannot do that, you must help them to emigrate ? At any rate, 
 the population question deserves as much attention as the emigration question. 
 
 921. (Rev. Curtis Hayward) : As to test of property, you say you looked to 
 the pawn tickets did you test it by the rate book at all, to see whether they 
 had paid rates when they were in work ? One instruction to the agent was to 
 make a report as to the date at which rent had ceased to be paid. 
 
 922. (Mr. Loch) : Your general conclusion is that in dealing with exceptional 
 distress you want well-directed charitable work ? Taking a district like your own, 
 Newington and St. Saviour's, do you find the people who are making money in 
 the district are residing in the district ? No ; generally not. In St. Mary's, 
 Newington, there are very few large employers. Mr. Tarn, of Lancaster Gate, 
 is the largest employer of labour in Newington. 
 
 923. Would it be possible to get that skilful charity on the spot if those who 
 employed the labour of the district were to care for the district themselves, 
 and put their leisure, so to speak, into it? That would make a very large 
 difference. 
 
 924. Practically, so far as that power is available, it is not exerted, by the 
 rich and well-to-do who make their money in the district ? No. 
 
 925. Therefore the people who are responsible are not fulfilling their 
 
 F2
 
 56 
 
 Mr. T. GAGE responsibility for the district ? If they are responsible, they are not f ul- 
 GAHDIXKH. ,2,,.^ ., J J J 
 filling it. 
 
 June 25 1886. 926. So far as the Mansion House Fund is concerned, it acts as a substitute 
 
 for the real actual responsibility of these people? 1 cannot say it acts as a 
 substitute. 
 
 927. But there is nothing else to take its place. And therefore I say that 
 until these people, and people generally, are disposed to give up a great deal 
 more of their time than at present, to helping in some form or other those whose 
 circumstances are less fortunate than their own, such a fund as this should not 
 be created. 
 
 928. Therefore the mismanagement of an exceptional distress fund would 
 point to a radical defect in Newington ? I should say it pointed to the want of 
 civilisation in London generally. 
 
 929. Did the Poor Law officers look through their books, or simply say, ' I 
 don't know such a case ' ? If the case was receiving relief, they made a note in 
 the list that was sent to them ; if not, they made no note, unless it was an 
 exceptionally bad case, and then they warned the Committee. 
 
 930. Then the reference did not answer all the purposes it might have done ? 
 At first relieving officers were most obliging in making suggestions as to the 
 cases, but on one occasion one of the relieving officers recommended a case which 
 was shown to be a bad case, and as a number of guardians were members of 
 the Committee, the relieving officer heard of it again ; and the other relieving 
 officers took warning by that, and afterwards confined themselves to definite 
 information. 
 
 931. Do you think it a good plan to distribute forms to be filled up by 
 applicant themselves ? Would you adopt that plan again ? To tell you the 
 truth, I never saw that the form was of any value whatever. 
 
 932. If you worked the fund as you think it desirable, would the staff have 
 to be increased ? I don't wish it to be understood that I favour having a fund 
 at all, except in cases of distress arising from what is sometimes called the act 
 of God that is to say, fire or flood. 
 
 933. But dealing with it, as you would deal with it, this year you would not 
 have to incur a very large extra expense of machinery ? Suppose it had been 
 in your hands, would you have had to employ a very expensive machinery 1 It 
 is very hard to say what number of applications would have been made if the 
 fund had not been largely advertised. 
 
 934. Two or three extra agents would carry it a good way, would they not ? - 
 Yes. 
 
 MR. W. H. O. JACK, examined. 
 
 Mr.w. H. o. 935. (Chairman): You are specially connected with the Charity Organisa- 
 
 tion Society ? I am agent for the Lewisham Committee. 
 
 936. Then in that capacity you have special knowledge of questions affecting 
 the Poor Law ? 1 have only been two years in that position, and I cannot say 
 that I have any special knowledge. 
 
 937. You only acted for the Charity Organisation Society. Did you help to 
 distribute the Mansion House Fund 1 At the time of the starting of the 
 Mansion House Fund, Mr. Bramly, the Hon. Sec., joined the Mansion House 
 Committee, and I was deputed by the Charity Organisation Committee to assist 
 the Mansion House Committee in inquiry and office work. 
 
 938. Did you find they were distributing the fund in a manner contrary to 
 the rules laid down by the Mansion House Committee in regard to chronic- 
 cases? No, I think not. 
 
 939. You have no knowledge ? I can say that they did not deal with chronic 
 cases. They were referred to the Poor Law. 
 
 940. So far as you helped, were you assisted by the relieving officers ? Yes, 
 when our inquiries required us to consult them ; but they were inclined to 
 be lenient to people always on the rates, and who, whether there was a 
 Mansion House Fund or not, would still be in want. 
 
 941. Did you find that the relief was being badly distributed ? At first it was
 
 57 
 
 badly distributed, because they commenced before the Committee was regularly Air. W. H. o. 
 
 formed ; but after the Committee had settled down in working order it was well 
 
 and carefully distributed. j une o 5) jgg^ 
 
 942. When it had got into this better state what kind of people did you 
 assist 1 The class of people which came to us were labourers, and artisans, and 
 mechanics a very large proportion of them were labourers. 
 
 943. Could not those labourers have been relieved by the Poor Law ? They 
 could have been, but it would, I think, have been better to arrange some relief 
 works. 
 
 944. You are specially in favour of relief works? I think it is a better 
 plan. By a labour test you can weed out the loafers. 
 
 945. In a place like Lewisham could you have relief works 1 Yes, road- 
 making. There are many in Lewisham that are not .yet made up. 
 
 946. Work which is now done by the vestries I Yes. 
 
 947. They would have been assisting the vestries ? Yes, and relieving the 
 rates by taking these people away who were otherwise receiving outdoor or in- 
 door relief, or in the labour yard. 
 
 948. I don't know how that would have relieved the rates. rThere is a largo 
 number of roads which are not made up. They must be made up at some date 
 or other, at the expense of the owners of the houses in those roads. That work 
 might be given to a large number of men out of employment during the winter 
 or a time of depression. 
 
 949. (Dr. Longstaff) : If the people living on either side of the road had 
 been compelled to contribute ? The owner of the property is responsible for the 
 cost of making up the roads. 
 
 950. But as a rule the making up a road is postponed till a certain propor- 
 tion of the inhabitants ask to have it made'up then the order of apportionment 
 is made. Is it not sometimes the case that a portion of the money is paid, yet 
 the vestry waits until all the owners have contributed / Suppose that '1,000 
 is necessary to make up of a road, and 800 paid, it would not be at all out of 
 the way for the Vestry to provide the 200. 
 
 951. What I understand is this : that you would be in favour of accel- 
 erating the process of making up the roads without relieving people living in 
 the roads from their liability, though the vestry would meanwhile supply the 
 deficiency for doing it I Yes, and (if legal) charge an interest on that defi- 
 ciency; and if the owner refuses to pay, collect the rent until it is paid. 
 
 952. Would yoii not have been benefiting speculative builders or pro- 
 prietors ? You would have improved the property 1 I am speaking of roads 
 already built upon. 
 
 953. (Chairman) : Upon the whole, so far as you are able to judge, was 
 good done by the Mansion House Fund in the neighbourhood of Lewisham I 
 1 think so, but a great deal of the money no doubt went to people who did not 
 deserve it, which, with necessary precautions, would not happen again. 
 
 954. Then you think that machinery might be established to prevent it ? I 
 think the existing machinery could be utilised and improved. 
 
 955. Does your Lewisham district correspond with that map ? The Mansion 
 House Fund dealt only with Lewisham civil parish. Eltham and Sydenham 
 had, I think, local Committees. 
 
 956. Do you know the population ? I can get it. * 
 
 957. I think you said you acted as inquiry officer ? I did. 
 
 958. Were you the only one ? No ; the Hon. Sec. of the Charity Organisa- 
 tion Committee and the two Hon. Sees, and some of the Committee of the 
 Mansion House Fund, assisted. 
 
 959. Do you know how many applications were made ? It is given in the 
 report of the Lewisham Committee 474. 
 
 960. Were those applications made personally? In the first place, the 
 Central Committee at Greenwich forwarded to the Lewisham Committee a 
 quantity of application forms, which were distributed to district visiiors, 
 
 * The Lewisham Union, including Eltham and Sydenham, had in 1881 a population 
 73,314.
 
 58 
 
 Mr. w. H. o. clergy, &c., and after they were filled up they were placed in a box at the 
 entrance. They were taken from the box three or four times a day, and sorted 
 June 25, 188C. and inquired into. 
 
 961. When you started to make these inquiries were these forms filled up 
 by the district visitors ? If they came filled up by a district visitor they were 
 returned, and had to be filled up by the applicants. 
 
 962. You are familiar with the practice of the Charity Organisation 
 Society ? Yes, for two years. 
 
 963. Were the inquiries you made for the Mansion House Committee similar 
 to ours ? The application forms were given to the inquiry agent to obtain any 
 information he could ; the Charity Organisation Society's books were looked 
 into to find anything concerning applicants. During the two years 1 have been 
 at Lewisham I have known a number of people as public-house loafers. Many 
 of these applied, and were at once written off. 
 
 964. If they were strangers, did you make the same inquiries as you would 
 have made for the Charity Organisation Society I There was not time, but their 
 case was carefully looked into . 
 
 965. Your report was expected to be ready in a few hours ? Yes ; probably 
 by six or seven in the evening. 
 
 966. You had no chance of inquiring of employers ? Did they give money 
 on account and pursue inquiries afterwards ? In some cases, I think, it was 
 done ; but, generally, when the case was pressing, it was placed in the inquiry 
 officer's hands, and was immediately seen to. 
 
 967. In many cases the inquiry officer resided far off I They resided in 
 Lewisham, Blackheath, or Lee. 
 
 968. Did a single member decide the cases, or a Committee 1 No, I never 
 saw less than four decide a case. 
 
 969. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : In the event of exceptional distress happening 
 next winter, should you recommend another Mansion House Fund or not ? 
 The Mansion House Fund might do a deal of good if properly managed, but 
 this one was a general scramble. The applicants seemed to think, the money 
 having been subscribed, it was to be given them whether deserving or not. 
 Some of the applicants who saw the Committee demanded they did not 
 ask. 
 
 970. Was there any labour test in your neighbourhood, and, if so, what ? 
 The Committee made an arrangement with Mr. Carline, the local surveyor, to 
 make and level a road. It was a road which would, perhaps, never have been 
 done otherwise. At first we referred applicants to the surveyor, telling them 
 that he would find them work ; this worked badly, as they did not apply, but 
 came back and said he had refused them. We adopted the practice of writing 
 to the applicants, and when they attended, offering them work. I wrote to forty 
 the first day ; out of that number we obtained eleven, and these eleven were 
 not of the right class. We finally wrote to 145 men and obtained 50. 
 
 971. What class of men ? They were labourers. 
 
 972. Not chronic cases I Yes, I think many were. 
 
 973. Men who were always out of work in the winter ? Yes, most of them. 
 
 974. Men who were employed in the gardens the market gardens ? Yes, 
 and other work i.e., labourers. 
 
 975. And the market gardeners are always out of work in severe weather ? 
 Quite so. 
 
 976. Are you in favour of the labour test ? I think it is the only means 
 of testing whether a man means to work if he can obtain it, or prefers to 
 accept charity. 
 
 977. Some kind of labour test you are convinced is necessary ? I am, if 
 the rate of wages was increased. 
 
 978. What did you give 1 Fourpence per hour for seven and a half hours. 
 
 979. Don't you think that sufficient ? No, sir. My experience is, it 
 stamps the work as being too much of charity, and the men will only put the 
 amount of labour to it you can get for charity work. I think if they were 
 paid 44d and the best od. per hour, you would have less grumbling and better 
 work.
 
 59 
 
 980. Fourpence per hour for seven and a half hours ? Yes ; that is 2s. 6d. Mr. \\". H. o. 
 per day of seven and a half hours. JACK. 
 
 981. You don't think that with the lower rate of pay you will ever get Juno o 3> 188fi- 
 real work ? I am convinced that you will not, unless you stand watching 
 
 them. 
 
 982. You think a halfpenny an hour will make the difference ? Yes, the 
 lower rate stamps it as charity work. It is surprising what a man will do for 
 the other $d. or ~Ld. per hour. 
 
 983. Then you actually did employ fifty men in this way ? Yes. 
 
 984. Did the majority of them skulk ] Yes, and also through lax super- 
 vision they got drunk on the work. 
 
 985. And they were men of the lower class, most of them ? They were of 
 the labouring class. Some of the artisans and labourers preferred to go about 
 with a box, drum, and banner, and get 5s. a day. These were that class of men 
 \vho talk politics in a public-house the best part of the day, and prefer anything 
 to work. 
 
 986. The artisans you came across were the dregs of the class ? I do not 
 think the Mansion House Fund generally reached the best of the artisans and 
 labourers. These are generally too independent to ask charity. 
 
 987. (Dr. Longstatf') : Do you think there was exceptional distress 
 among the exceptionally good artisans ? No ; not more than, from depression in 
 the building trade, there has been for some years. 
 
 988. (Mr. Peters) : If there had not been any Mansion House Fund, do you 
 consider that there would have been very great hardship ? No, I don't think 
 there would have been in Lewisham, because Lewisham has so many churches 
 and well-organised District Visiting Societies, who give relief outside. There 
 are also a great many charitable people, whom I have heard called ' free lances,' 
 who give relief on their own account. 
 
 989. Then practically you would say there was no occasion for the Mansion 
 House Fund in your district ? I think not. 
 
 990. How many applications had you ? You have it in the report. 
 (The Secretary read the figures from the report.)* 
 
 991. Do you consider, as a rule, that the cases which are here described as 
 deserving cases were deserving cases really ? I should not like to give an 
 opinion, unless a better or longer inquiry could have been made. 
 
 992. (Mr. Loch) : As a fact, it is quite clear that these men who were 
 set to work, under the arrangement made by you, were men of the chronic 
 class out of work every winter ? Yes, many of them ; others were of the 
 loafing class, a few respectable they were a mixed lot. 
 
 993. There would be no hardship whatever in many of these men receiving 
 their relief in the stoneyards ? In some cases not. 
 
 994. Therefore, so far, the charity labour would be simply substituted for 
 the stoneyard ; it might just as well have been the stoneyard under the 
 Poor Law authorities I Yes ; we endeavoured to obtain the best of them. 1 
 am not in favour in all cases of the stoneyard test ; it is too demoralising for a 
 respectable man. 
 
 995. Though you endeavoured to obtain the best men, they were of this 
 chronic class I Yes, with some exceptions. 
 
 99G. But who provided the money for this charity labour ? 50 was given 
 by the Lewisham Mansion House Committee. 
 
 997. Was that money given in connection with Lord Brabazon's Associa- 
 tion ? No. 
 
 S98. Had you any connection with that Association ? Yes. I have the 
 management of the work at St. Mary's churchyard. 400 has been given from 
 Lord Brabazon's Association to lay this out. 
 
 999. Are tbe same men working there ? A few. There is considerable 
 difficulty in getting labourers to work there. 
 
 * 'The number of applications received was 474. These were .all carefully investi- 
 gated by the voluntary almoners, assisted by the Committee's officers, who visited the 
 homes of the applicants, and 321 were reported as deserving of relief.'
 
 CO 
 
 Mr. w. H. o. 1000. Why ? Because the building trade is looking up. 
 
 1001. So that the charity work is being carried out in a competitive manner 
 June 25, 1886. with the building trade, which is getting into full swing ? Improving, but not 
 in full swing. ISot competitive ; we don't compel labourers to come there. 
 
 100:?. If he prefers the charity work, as he can have it to do, he is so far 
 prevented from working at contract prices under a builder's foreman ? No one 
 prevented him, he had his choice charity work and 4d. per hour, or contract 
 work at 6J. per hour. 
 
 1003. So that the Boulevard Association work is being done by this set of 
 men, more or less? Yes. A class of men, many of them, 1 would not give 2d. 
 per hour to, if I were a builder. 
 
 1004. And it is not meeting any particular demand weekly ? It has already 
 found work this week for 24 men. 
 
 1005. But that is not in response to a distinct demand ? No. Most of them 
 are men who would rub along somehow. 
 
 1006. Would those 24 men be good for emigration 1 I have pushed emigra- 
 tion very strongly. I have had many promises, but I find generally excuses 
 are made at the last moment that the wives will not emigrate. 
 
 1007. But these men who will not emigrate are out of work every winter 
 What wages do they get in the summer? If they get work, 5id. to (id. per 
 hour. 
 
 1008. Speaking roughly, for a week, would he be able to earn his 25s. a 
 week ? No, I don't think he would, because he would work a short day on 
 Saturday, and would stop for rain, loss of time, &c. 
 
 1009. And being unable to do that (and as a married man), is out of work 
 every winter ? Generally so. 
 
 1010. And yet he won't emigrate, though physically able to do it ? Xo, he 
 will rot. 
 
 1011. If he felt that this money was not forthcoming, do you think he would 
 be induced to emigrate ? Or else to shift from the neighbourhood. 
 
 101'2. (Dr. Longstaff) : Then you think they look out for this ? I have had 
 men who said, ' Mr. Jack, if there's another Mansion House Fund next 
 winter I hope you'll remember me.' 
 
 1013. (Mr. Loch) : But charity work is keeping on the spot men who would 
 make good emigrants and might be induced to emigrate I If he were driven to 
 extremities he might emigrate I Unless he could go to the labour-yard. 
 
 1014. Are they as happy in the labour-yard as in the charity work ? Yes, 
 I think so. However lazy a man may be, I think he would rather have strict 
 supervision. If not, he turns it up, and prefers to loaf about the streets. I 
 think they are more contented in the labour-yard, where they are strictly 
 supervised. 
 
 1015. The labour-yard, so far, would be equivalent to extreme pressure 1 I 
 think so. 
 
 1016. And if the labour-yard was not open ordinarily there would be an 
 inducement to them to move or emigrate ? Yes, the bad ones. I know many 
 a decent labourer who went in last winter who would not have done so unless 
 he had been driven to it. 
 
 1017. Supposing the labour-yard is shut and the charitable work only 
 available for such men as you have just mentioned, do you think that would 
 answer ? I think the charity work w ould answer if done by measurement. 
 
 1018. You want contract, do you ? No, sir. 
 
 1019. Treat them as if they were under a contractor ? Yes. Because it 
 may be charity or relief works is no reason a man should skulk. 
 
 10*20. Would you take more gangers ? No, one ganger would be quite 
 sufficient if he were up to the mark. 
 
 1021. How was he chosen 1 He was appointed by Mr. Carline, the district 
 surveyor. 
 
 1022. Lord Brabazon's work is 2s. Get. a day ? No, it is only five hours a 
 day Is. Sd. 
 
 1023. Did they give breakfasts ? That was done in some places ; we had no 
 conveniences for such an arrangement.
 
 61 
 
 1024. If the man has to be paid at all, do you think it Letter to pay him jj; r . \v. H. 0. 
 partly in breakfast and partly in money ? I think it better to pay him in JACK. 
 
 money. June ">s 1886 
 
 1025. (Chairman) : From one of Mr. Loch's questions it would lead you to 
 suppose that idle people would make good emigrants 1 Yes ; if they were taken 
 abroad, and left to shift for themselves, they might do it. 
 
 1026. With regard to a suburban district like yours, is there any suggestion 
 you have to make for exceptional distress ? Supposing another Mansion House 
 Fund were formed, the rirst thing to be given is a labour test. No money 
 should be given to able-bodied men unless it was earned. But the work should 
 be done by measurement, and so much should be expected from each man, 
 allowance being made for old men. 
 
 1027. (Mr. Allen) : You must have strict investigation of the cases ? Yes, 
 and while making strict inquiries applicants who were able to work should be 
 referred to the relief works. 
 
 1028. (Mr. Loch) : That would be with special reference to the wants of 
 your own district '? I think so. In Lewisham there is a very large propor- 
 tion of labourers. They were the largest proportion who applied to the Man- 
 sion House Committee for relief. 
 
 1029. Just now there is a demand for a certain number of labourers for 
 Queensland for service ; I think 20 is the money. After that they can earn 
 very much higher wages. Do you think you could get six or eight men who 
 would take that ? No, not one. I have taken great trouble about emigration, 
 and find they back out at the eleventh hour. 
 
 1030. That is to say, we are keeping on the spot a number of people who will 
 not work properly ? If the work was done by measurement it would be too 
 hard for them ; they would either migrate or emigrate. 
 
 1031. Therefore you would be very strict with them ? I would make no 
 exception with able-bodied men. 
 
 1032. But taking the character of the Lewisham public into question, 1 
 suppose they would highly disapprove of such a plan /Yes ; we offered 145 
 work, but only 50 accepted it. 
 
 1033. The rest got relief somewhere ? Yes, but not from the Mansion House 
 Fund. 
 
 1034. And they did not go to the Poor Law ? No. 
 
 1035. So that the whole difficulty is the feeling of the public as to their 
 responsibility. You cannot apply any system in the present circumstances to 
 meet the case. I think you would find that the public would hold your 
 hand ; they prefer to keep them. Those 90 who refused were able to live 
 somehow on the public, and that would be likely to occur in any future year I 
 Yes. At St. Mary's Church on the last Bank Holiday 1 resolved to work all 
 day, to know which of the men would come up. Three men did not come, but 
 were loafing outside of a public-house three parts drunk the whole of the day. 
 
 (The Committee then adjourned.)
 
 62 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 2ND, 1880. 
 Present MR. A. PELL, in the Chair. 
 
 Rev. W. C. HAYWAED, Mr. A. G. CBOWDER, 
 
 Mr. J. H. ALLEN, Rev. BROOKE LAMBERT, 
 
 Hon. and Rev. Canon LEGGE. Hon. and Rev. A. C STANLEY. 
 
 Mr. R. HEDLEY, attending on behalf of the Local Government Board. 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 THE HON. AND REV. CANON LEGGE, examined. 
 
 The Hon. and 1036. (Chairman) : You are Vicar of Lewisham ? Yes, for seven years. I 
 
 ^KG*"!" 1 have been resident in Lewisham for 19 years. 
 
 1037. In addition to that, you are Chairman of the Lewisham Board of 
 July 2, 1886. Guardians ? Yes. 
 
 1038. How long have you been guardian on that Board ? Sixteen years. 
 
 1039. And Chairman for how long ? This is the third year. 
 
 1040. Just incidentally, are your guardians appointed for a period of three 
 years? No, for one year. 
 
 1041. Have you acted in any way on behalf of the Mansion House Fund 1 
 Very little. I was a member of the Local Committee. 
 
 1042. At what date did you become a member ? Some time in February. 
 As soon as it was formed. 
 
 1043. Did you continue a member till a month ago ? Till it ceased to exist. 
 
 1044. Now are you pretty regular in your attendance at the Board ? Yes. 
 
 1045. How often do you meet 1 Once a fortnight, but committees in the 
 alternate weeks. 
 
 1046. You have Relief Committees, then ? Yes. 
 
 1047. Your relief is not administered by the Board, but is distributed 
 through the action of Committees. How many? Three Committees. 
 
 1048. And these Committees have a certain area, I suppose ? Yes, which 
 correspond with the areas of the Relieving Officers. 
 
 1049. Do you know at all what proportion of indoor to outdoor paupers you 
 have ? The outdoor paupers vary so very much. 
 
 1050. Take the first day of the year have you more outdoor paupers on 
 your list than you have in the house ? I am afraid I cannot tell you.* 
 
 * Canon 'Legge writes: The following statistics will furnish answers to some of the 
 questions asked in evidence ; and may form a convenient schedule to my evidence. 
 The Lewisham Union Workhouse is certified for 506 inmates all told. 
 The Able-bodied Men's Wards accommodate 120. 
 These wards were full from December 12, 1835, to March 6, 1886. 
 The Number of Persons in Receipt of Outdoor fieliefirere as follows: 
 
 1st July, 1885 1st Jan., 1886. 1st July, 1886. 
 
 In receipt of General Relief 929 ... 2,045 ... 1,094 
 
 Medical Relief only 67 ... 64 ... 21 
 
 Totals ... 996^ ... 2.090 ... 1.115 
 
 The number of men (separate cases, mostly heads of families) relieved in the Labour- 
 yard during the six months ending March 25, 1885, and 1886, respectively, were: 
 
 s. d. & x. </. 
 
 1584-85 ... 271 at a cost of 7lO 12 9| or 2 12 5^ per head. 
 1885-86 ... 416 1,460 15 6| ,, 3 10 7J 
 
 Increase 1885-86 ... 145 759 29 ,, 18
 
 63 
 
 1051. (Mr. Hedley) : Many more outdoor paupers than indoor. The ilou. ana 
 
 1052. (Chairman): Perhaps you would not mind taking the first of iicv. CAN-OX 
 January hunting it up. The numbers on the poor list and the number of 
 
 indoor, including the medical cases out of the house. The proportion would July 2, is?6. 
 
 vary very much in summer and winter. It may be an advantage to answer for 
 
 both. 
 
 1053. In winter you think it would be very much larger 1 Could you give 
 us the same figures for the first of July 1885 ? Yes. 
 
 1054. You are aware, I believe, that the Mansion House Fund came into 
 operation about the llth February 1 About that time. 
 
 1055. Now, had there been any increase of distress apparent to you as 
 Chairman of the Board, previous to February, beyond what you would have 
 expected to have been brought under your notice at that time of the year 1 
 Yes, there had. 
 
 1056. Very much more ? Very considerably more. 
 
 1057. Something like 20 per cent, more ? 1 should think so. I have got 
 here the actual number of cases relieved during six months ending March 1st, 
 1885, and during the six months ending March 1st, 1886. In the six months 
 ending March 1st, 1885, the number of cases relieved was 3,300 outdoor relief. 
 
 1058. That was in 1885? Yes. For the six months ending March 1st, 1886, 
 the number was 4,868. 
 
 1059. Now the indoor ? The indoor I cannot give you. Very slightly in- 
 creased, I think. 
 
 1060. The indoor was very slightly increased. Was the house crowded ? 
 Were you unable to receive more 'I We were, in many of the wards ; but 
 several wards are for special cases children and so forth. 
 
 1061. The ordinary wards were full ? Yes. 
 
 1062. Can you say that you had any more able-bodied adults in the work- 
 house at this time than usual ? Yes, we had. 
 
 1063. Did you make freer use of the workhouse test during the winter, or 
 act upon the same lines as usual ? We made a freer use of it. 
 
 1064. Did you use it more freely than at any other times 1 You had more 
 applications for relief occurred in 1886 than in previous years ? Yes. 
 
 1065. You had, according to your figures, had you not, 1,500 more cases ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1066. How was it that you admitted 1,500 more cases to the receipt of out- 
 door relief without any corresponding rise in the indoor ? 1,500 includes 
 every child. 
 
 1067. (Mr. Hedley) : They were not cases then they were individuals ? A 
 man and woman and seven children is one case. 
 
 1068. (Chairman) : Then, when in answer to previous questions you have 
 mentioned cases, you referred to individuals ? Yes. 
 
 1069. How was it you admitted 1,500 more people to outdoor relief without 
 
 The scale of remuneration was unchanged, and the increased cost per head is 
 accounted for by (a) The larger number on an average in the families. 
 
 (6) The provision of boots for the children in it large number of cases 
 during the later months of the long winter. 
 
 The number of families assisted to emigrate by the Guardians was during the same 
 six months : 
 
 *. d. 
 
 1884-85 4 families, at a cost of 8915 
 
 1885-86 7 142 
 
 The number of Casuals relieved during the same period was : 
 
 1884-85 ... 1,894 casuals, at a cost of 95 6 
 1885-86 ... 1,803 ,, 87 11 
 
 The expenditure on Outdoor Relief in the Union during the same six months wa3 
 920. its. 6d. more in 1885-86 than in 1884-85; of which, 759. 2s. Qd. was expended 
 on Labour-yard cases.
 
 64 
 
 u d an y corresponding indoor relief ? Because we could not have taken anything 
 LEGGE. like the proportion of increase into the house, from want of accommodation. 
 , 1070. Did you make offers of the house till the house was quite full? I 
 
 don't suppose we offered the house in every instance. I don't suppose a fort- 
 night elapsed without an offer of the house being made. 
 
 1071- But still again, I want this answer Did you make the offer of the 
 house till the house was so full that you could not use the workhouse test any 
 longer ? I should think we did, because we did fill the house as far as able- 
 bodied men were concerned. 
 
 1072. Had you beds made up in the Board room ? No. 
 
 1073. In 1881 ? In 1881 the house was only half the size. 
 
 1074. Would you, Canon Legge, be able to let us know whether the house was 
 at any time so full that you were prevented making use of the workhouse test ? 
 Yes, I will. 
 
 1075. Will you tell us whether it was full up to the certificate of the Local 
 GoA'ernment Board that you will let us know ? Yes. 
 
 1076. Did you put on any extra inquiry officers when you had this large 
 number of fresh applicants ? We had quite recently appointed three assistant- 
 relieving officers. 
 
 1077. Were the officers old hands ? Yes. 
 
 1078. Are you on one of the Relief Committees ? Yes. 
 
 1079. Now, we will take your own Relief Committee did you see all these 
 persons? Did they all that is, the parents or representatives come before 
 the Board ? So far as my Committee was concerned, they all did. The relief 
 was given for certain periods. 
 
 1080. For how long a period do you give it, not during sickness, do you ? 
 Do you mean sickness of the man. 
 
 1081. Do you ever grant relief for the term of sickness ? No. 
 
 1082. It was always for a specified time ? Yes. 
 
 1083. With regard to these exceptional cases, what period did you have ? 
 Six weeks. 
 
 1084. Was that your general order ? General in the first instance. 
 
 1085. You did not vary your rule in the winter of 188G ? No, but if at the 
 end of six weeks a man applied again, we considered whether we should allow 
 him to continue to work in the labour yard or tell him to come into the house. 
 We would often grant him permission to go again into the labour yard for a 
 short period. 
 
 1086. When you offered the house, was it accepted ? In very few cases in 
 some. 
 
 1087. Was not that rather a proof that they could have done without the 
 outdoor relief ? What relief did you give generally in these outdoor cases ? 
 In money and kind, according to our scale. 
 
 1088. You have the scale ? Yes. 
 
 1089. In any case did you give outdoor relief to able-bodied men ? Not, 
 except in the labour yard, in any case. 
 
 1090. At what time did he come ? At nine o'clock. 
 
 1091. And remained till ? Four in the afternoon. 
 
 3092. And that in fact was the test? Yes. 
 
 1093. Was the relief you then gave him supposed to be enough to 
 support those dependent on him ? It was supposed to be adequate for the 
 number in family to supply them with the necessaries of life, but not to pay rent. 
 
 1094. What was the character of the people ? What class did they belong to ? 
 The majority belonged to t the class employed in the building trade and the 
 brickfields. But there was a considerable percentage of persons of a somewhat- 
 better class the artisan class. 
 
 1095. Now, with regard to the building class, before you admitted them to 
 relief, were inquiries made as to what they had been doing in the previous two 
 years, and previous life ? Yes, in every case I think we had an investigation. 
 
 1096. Did they satisfy you that the trade had been so bad they could not 
 help their position ? Yes, there was no doubt I think about that, and the 
 larger portion of the distress we thought arose from the length of the winter.
 
 65 
 
 1097- But the long winter, as we will call it would you not agree with me, The Hon. an 
 did not begin until March, whereas relief began in February ? It was an open ^LEGOE?" 
 winter up to February 1 If I remember right we had a good deal of frost 
 earlier than that ; though it was not continuous, it was sufficient to interfere July 2, 1886. 
 very considerably with building. 
 
 1098. Ill put the question in another way, when did thesa people begin to 
 apply to you ? As early as November. 
 
 1099. That will do. Then the winter had nothing to do with it. They had 
 been doing badly in the summer ? Yes. 
 
 1100. Then all through the winter the cases I suppose rather increased than 
 not ? All through the winter. As the winter continued some applied who had 
 never been in that position before. 
 
 1101. Now just leave the Poor Law for a moment. Did you find that much 
 distress was brought under your notice as a clergyman over and above these 
 applications ? Not very much. 
 
 1102. Do you think that the exceptional distress was confined to the artisan 
 class of your district ? Yes, I think so. 
 
 1103. Did much money come from the Mansion House Fund ? Did you 
 knoAV much about the Mansion House Fund I Yes. 
 
 1104. Did that tend to reduce the pauper list, or did it reduce the pauper 
 class ? No, but I think it helped to prevent an increase. We were able to refer 
 some who applied for the first time to the Mansion House Helief Committee, 
 so as to prevent them from becoming paupers. 
 
 1105. Was there any correspondence kept up between the officers of the Poor 
 Law and the gentlemen who represented the Mansion House Fund ? Yes, in 
 Lewisharn we were in constant communication, and there were two or three 
 guardians who were members of the Mansion House Committee. 
 
 1106. Do you think on the whole that the Mansion House Relief Fund was a 
 benefit to the population in your district ? I don't think it was required. I 
 think it was on the whole wisely administered, because we had the advantage of 
 having the experience of the Charity Organisation Society's Committee. 
 
 1107. You don't think the Mansion House Fund was required, but you do 
 think it was rightly administered ? Yes. 
 
 1108. Would you do anything yourself to promote the establishment of 
 another 1 No, certainly not. 
 
 1109. Even though you are aware that though we have got free of mid- 
 summer day there is lack of work among your population 1 No, I should rely 
 upon the neighbourhood to help. 
 
 1110. And would you resent help coming from the outside ? Would you be 
 disinclined to have it ? Yes. 
 
 1111. And you think your parishioners would in that case be more prepared 
 to accept the duties that belong to neighbourhood ? I think they would. 
 
 1112. Do you think that where this principle is rightly observed, sensational 
 work like the Mansion House Fund would supersede it ? I think that is likely 
 to be the result. 
 
 1113. I suppose you have a good many rich people ? Yes, in the Union in 
 the neighbourhood. 
 
 1114. It is not a very poor district ? It is a poor district. In a very poor 
 district the principle might be maintained by affiliation to a wealthier district ; 
 a system already in operation in some cases. 
 
 1115. (Rev. B. Lambert) : I think we understood that your accommodation as 
 regards the Local Government Board certificate was not exceeded ; you kept up 
 to the certificate and no more ? Our certificate, I think, shows a considerable 
 amount of accommodation not used, but it is accommodation for special cases, 
 and not available for able-bodied men. 
 
 1116. You said that you had many bricklayers, was the outdoor applicant 
 generally of a superior class 1 No. 
 
 1117. But superior to what have come in other years ? Well, the number 
 was very large, and I should not think the majority were of a superior class ; 
 but many were. 
 
 1118. I ask, because some one looking at your labour-yard told me that the
 
 66 
 
 The Hon. and class Was very much superior. Now did the Mansion House Fund reduce your 
 ROT. Canon labour yard ? No, but I think it prevented it increasing. 
 
 1119. Now then, did you make any use of the Local Government Board 
 
 July 2, 18SG. suggestions of March 1886, allowing the guardians to supply labour in other 
 matters than the labour yard ? We kept ourselves in communication with the 
 District Board of Works, and the Board did employ a certain number from the 
 labour yard on works which would not have otherwise been undertaken. 
 
 1120. I must ask how far that letter is still in operation ? 
 
 1121. (Mr. Hedley) : It was only a letter of suggestions, but it would still 
 stand good in another winter. 
 
 1122. I understand that at Lewisham all you did was to lay out some new 
 roads. Do you think that in a future year the suggestions in the letter would 
 practically enable us to get rid of the labour-yard test ? I would not say that 
 it would enable us to get rid of it altogether. I would mention that the 
 Local Mansion House Relief Committee applied a certain portion of their funds 
 to the payment of labour. 
 
 1123. (Chairman) : A sort of encouragement ? Yes. 
 
 1124. (.Mr. B. Lambert) : Would you kindly tell me in what directions you 
 think you could place labour? Well, I heard Mr. Vallance's proposition in 
 regard to the streets. 
 
 1125. Do you think those could be done ? I think there are objections. 
 
 1126. Is there anything else you think of ? It must depend on the locality. 
 In our case you mention roads. There was some work done by the Board of 
 Works in making up roads, the cost of which must be repaid by the owners of 
 the houses. The grant from the Mansion House Fund was used for improving 
 a road by levelling a piece of rising ground in it a work that never would 
 have been done otherwise. That was paid for at a lower rate of Avages. ---"?; * 
 
 1127. And you think the work could be done in future ? I think so, in 
 our Union. 
 
 1128. And no other plan has suggested itself to you ? Since the Mansion 
 House Relief Fund has been closed, we have undertaken to lay out our 
 churchyard as a garden in connection with Lord Brabazon's Association. 
 
 1129. (Chairman) : Just to follow it up, was any of the work that was done 
 of an unremunerative nature ? Some was remunerative labour as in the case of 
 occupation roads. But was part spent on unremunerative work ? The whole 
 of the grant from the Mansion House Fund was spent on unremunerative work. 
 
 1130. (Mr. B. Lambert) : In regard to the other matter that you mentioned 
 you said that you thought the ordinary charity of the neighbourhood could 
 meet this time of distress ; now may I ask how you would suggest to meet the 
 case of a man out of work, whom you did not intend to take into the Union ? 
 What would you do with him? I don't know what cases there would be 
 like that. If a man was out of work, there is nothing for him but relief 
 from the parish. 
 
 1131. You do intend to make them appeal to the parish ? Yes. 
 
 1132. (Chairman) : That is if he has no relations who would help him to tide 
 over the difficulty ? Yes. 
 
 1133. (Chairman) : I have just one question before we leave this. Has the 
 amount of building in your neighbourhood sensibly decreased ? It has ; and 
 more especially in proportion to the population, and the explanation is this, 
 that of the small class of cottages which formerly employed local labour a great, 
 many of them are unlet ; and where larger works have been undertaken, the 
 contractor has brought his own men, thus increasing the population and not 
 giving employment to the builders in the locality. 
 
 1134. (Mr. Loch) : Is the bulk of this distress chronic, do you think ? By 
 chronic, you mean always coming after the summer ? 
 
 1135. Yes, and lasting for the winter year after year, for the last four years 
 say? I think the bulk of it is. 
 
 1136. Then practically if it is not to be relieved by our charitable relief funds 
 which I understand in regard to a large proportion of it would be your 
 opinion would those people apply naturally to the Poor Law ? A considerable 
 number would.
 
 67 
 
 1137. If they were left to themselves ? Yes. 
 
 1138. Are they left to themselves ? As a matter of fact is there not a lot of The Hon. and 
 small charitable relief from one source or another drifting their way'? A great u< ^' ( ^ anori 
 deal too much. 
 
 1139. And that prevents their coming to a decision as to moving or coming 
 to the Poor Law ? Yes. 
 
 1140. And therefore we are keeping an amount of chronic distress which we 
 are giving sops to occasionally ? Yes. 
 
 1141. And the Charity Relief Fund is accentuating the evil ? Yes. 
 
 1142. And it destroys thrift, does it not ? I think we are improving as 
 to thrift. We have a self-supporting dispensary, and the number of members 
 increases regularly. 
 
 1143. Did you find that the members of the dispensary were people who 
 applied for relief last winter ? I think not. 
 
 1144. Therefore, it follows that the chronic distress can only be relieved by 
 the thrift of these people ? Through the Poor Law, do you mean ? 
 
 1145. No, chronic distress could only be met by the thriftiness of these 
 people. Quite so. There are two classes of workmen, one regular and thrifty, 
 and the other irregular, which last class falls back persiste'ntly on indiscriminate 
 charity. 
 
 1146. Then if this charity were away, they would be tempted to be thrifty, 
 or move ; and the key to the difficulty lies there in their increased thrift or 
 getting regular work, and not on relief at all ? Yes, but a large amount of 
 work cannot be regular the jobbing gardeners' work and builders' work. 
 
 1147. (Chairman) : Are you acquainted with the wages in your neighbour- 
 hood '? Yes. 
 
 1148. And those people take exceptionally high wages becaiise their work is 
 so casual and irregular ? Four or five shillings a day, not more. 
 
 1149. (Mr. Loch) : In view of the necessary irregularity of certain work, 
 do you think that that could be met by these people having alternative trades 
 to work in the intervals 1 I never thought that out. 
 
 1150. But, practically, unless some solution of that sort is arrived at we 
 must be perpetually in this dilemma ? Yes. 
 
 1151. Have you, in connection with the schools of the district, any settled 
 plan of teaching another trade that men, such as gardeners, should be taught 
 wood carving and toy making ? No. 
 
 1152. Do you think, with a certain number of charitable people in your 
 neighbourhood, that their attention and energies could be given in this direction '( 
 The dilemma is just this. The state of trade brings intermittent labour and 
 consequent distress unless there is thrift to make up for it, and during the 
 slack period the workman must go to the poor-hoiise and charity. The only 
 thing then is to give them work which will supplement their regular work. 
 What I want to ask, is whether attention is being paid to any such solution of 
 this problem ? There are very few who have the leisure and the means to 
 promote a scheme of that kind. 
 
 1153. But there would be the ordinary schools to promote a movement of 
 that kind ? Yes, but the whole time is taken up preparing for examinations. 
 
 1154. But then there are night schools ? Yes. 
 
 1155. But they don't teach industrial work there ? No, not that I am 
 aware of. 
 
 1156. So that, if in foreign countries they do this, the best means of getting 
 industrial training are not made use of by us ? No. 
 
 1157. Did the local people subscribe to the Mansion House Fund ? I did 
 not advise them to. 
 
 1158. What I wanted to know 
 
 1159. (Chairman) : Canon Legge says that the Lewisham district was 
 obliged to have a Mansion House Fund of its own. 
 
 1160. (Mr. Loch) : But, as a matter of fact, do you suppose that the con- 
 dition of things is this : that a large number of people in London gave money 
 to the Mansion House Fund, the proceeds of which were distributed in districts 
 comparatively rich ? In Lewisham was the fund raised by the Mansion House
 
 68 
 
 The Hon. and utilised in comparatively rich districts in Lewisham? It was used in a district 
 E LE(Kj l F: 10n * n wn i c h there are a sufficient number of well-to-do people to provide against 
 
 any emergency. 
 July 2, 1886. 1161. And were those people subscribers to the Mansion House Fund ? 
 
 That I cannot say. 
 
 1162. But it is quite possible. I suppose that money collected from the rich 
 people of the metropolis was being used for a comparatively rich part of your 
 district ? Very little, I should say. 
 
 1163. That is, it so happened that one large donation covered the wants of 
 the district ? Our proportion of the fund was not a very large one we did 
 not have a third of the whole amount assigned to the Greenwich district of 
 which we formed a part. 
 
 1164. Then, practically, the wants of the district were relieved by a portion 
 of one large donation, and the call on the other people was not so great as it 
 might have been had the work been done locally ? Yes. 
 
 1165. And there was a frightful amount of begging going on at the same 
 time ? Yes. 
 
 1166. (CJiairman) : You have been asked about supplemental industry, 
 whether these casual people, jobbing gardeners, should not be trained to fill up 
 the intervals of time when they are not employed in the gardens. You said, I 
 think, that no attempt had been made ? We had an industrial exhibition which 
 was intended to promote that kind of employment. 
 
 1167. But why should a man take up a position of that kind 1 We gave no 
 outdoor relief to able-bodied men without work in the labour yard. We used 
 that freely. 
 
 1168. Is there a medical examination of the persons going to the labour 
 yard, if they say they are unable to do the work in the labour yard ? There is 
 a variety of work, including wood chopping, but if any men say they are unable 
 to do any work, they have to submit to a medical examination. 
 
 1169. Had you ever to take a man before the medical officer? When at 
 work ? I don't remember a case. 
 
 [The Committee then adjourned .] 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 9-ra, 1886. 
 Present Mr. F. J. S. EDGECOMBE, in the Chair. 
 
 Mr. J. H. ALLEN, Hon. and Rev. A. C. STANLEY, 
 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 Mr. T. MACK AY, examined. 
 
 Mr. T.MACKKY. 1170. (Chairman) : You were an Hon. Secretary of the Mansion House 
 Jnl * Fund Committee in St. George's-in-the-East ? Yes. 
 
 1171. How much money was placed at your disposal 1 About 300 person- 
 ally ; the whole Committee for St. George's Parish had about 2,000. 
 
 1172. All these figures are contained in the printed Report? Yes. 
 
 1173. What instructions did you receive from the Mansion House Com- 
 mittee ] None, till a fortnight after we had started, and by that time we 
 had drawn up rules of our own. 
 
 1174. Did you act upon the Mansion House rules ? We continued to act 
 on our own rules ; the Mansion House rules were rather wider than ours. I 
 may say there was one thing we did not do. The Mansion House Committee 
 told us not to pay back rent. We had commenced paying back rent, because 
 we found that the arrears of rent were the chief cause of the distress people 
 were in, and we continued to pay it. 
 
 1175. Your rules and the Mansion House rules were substantially the same 
 rules ? Yes ; not much difference.
 
 69 
 
 1176. You laid more weight upon some points than they did ? Yes; there llr. T. MACKAY. 
 was one point about the workhouse test we did not attempt it, although it j ] 9 igg 
 appears in our rules. 
 
 1177. You have no means of applying any Poor Law labour test except the 
 workhouse in your district ? No ; we had no labour yard. We had a small 
 sewing class towards the end. 
 
 1178. How far did you comply with the rules ? We did comply with them 
 as far as possible. 
 
 1179. Then there were little or no cases of chronic distress ? We were 
 supposed to have nothing to do with chronic distress ; it was out-of-work cases 
 we felt ourselves authorised to relieve only out-of-work cases. 
 
 1180. Were these cases of habitually out of work 1 In that neighbourhood, 
 if you asked a dock labourer whether he was out of .work, he would say ' yes ' 
 if he had not got work on that day. They have no regular employment ; they 
 may be at work three days in the week, and on the other three they would 
 say they are out of work. The dock companies do not know the number 
 required each day. 
 
 1181. How did you arrive at the applications ? Were they made by letter, 
 or were they made personally at one or more offices 1 The first day or two they 
 came by letter. They were forwarded from the Mansion House Committee. 
 Mr. Turner, the chairman, received them, and sent them to the almoners for the 
 various districts. After that we had a public office, and we had such a crowd 
 of applicants that we were obliged to have, I think, four policemen to keep 
 order. 
 
 1182. After the first days you received personal application 1 Did you con- 
 tinue that ? Yes ; but when we thought we were getting towards the end of 
 our money we shut up the office. 
 
 1183. Were a great many of the applications you received made personally 
 at your offices 1 Yes ; 80 per cent., I should say. 
 
 1184. Could you take down the particulars with the staff at your disposal ? 
 The applicants calling at the office, if they coull write, were given a paper to fill 
 up, stating name, number in family, cause of distress, &c. ; if they could not 
 write, a clerk took down the application. These papers were sent to me. At 
 first I tried to attend to them all myself. I got the Charity Organisation Society 
 to make some inquiry, but the applications were so numerous that we were 
 ' swamped.' After that, Mr. Turner, the rector, lent me a room, and helped me 
 to organise a Committee. This Committee consisted of one of his curates, the 
 nurse, a mission woman, one of the priests from the Roman Catholic Church, who 
 occasionally attended, two or three gentlemen connected with some of the 
 Nonconformists' churches in the neighbourhood, the City missionaries, the 
 relieving officers and the sanitary officer of the parish. The applications wero 
 read over to this Committee generally someone knew the various applicants ; 
 if not, a member of the Committee visited the home and reported. This was done 
 in the morning. I spent the afternoon or evening in going over these reports, and 
 the ultimate decision was left with me. It is practically impossible in this 
 neighbourhood to find out if a man is out of employment or not. We had to give 
 it up as a bad job. If a man had a decent home, and belonged to a club and 
 seemed a provident fellow, substantial assistance was willingly given. 
 
 1185. When you got the report, was the case left with you ? Yes. 
 
 1186. Such inquiries as you were able to make went mainly to a ques- 
 tion of general character ? Mainly, but I do not think they were worth much. 
 There was no employer to consult. The neighbours were most of them appli- 
 cants themselves. The parish clergyman, in his civil capacity, knows most about 
 the people. Everyone in his parish, whether of his congregation or not, goes 
 to the vestry for advice and assistance when in want. The Roman Catholics 
 and Nonconformists know their own congregations, but our applicants were not, 
 as a rule, of the church-going class, and, except as stated, nothing very 
 definite could be got from the clergy. The relieving officers and sanitary officers 
 naturally know the districts well, and assisted us a good deal. But, on the 
 whole, the investigation, I felt, was rather a farce. 
 
 1187. A considerable number of people, then, were relieved who ought not 
 
 G
 
 70 
 
 Mr. T. MACK AY. to have been relieved? I know one or two were. I saw one woman very 
 drunk the day after she got relief. We got hundreds of applications every day, 
 j o, 1886. an( j -j. wag very (jiffies We were told that we were to spend the money, and 
 were urged to hurry. 
 
 1188. Had you any communication with the Poor Law people ? The two 
 relieving officers used to look in at the meetings of the Committee I have 
 described. There is no outdoor relief given in St. George's, and, therefore, 
 no chance of overlapping with Poor Law relief. 
 
 1189. There are few large employers of labour in that part of the world ? 
 There are some, but, I think, none of their men applied. 
 
 1190. Were any of those serving on the Committee ? Yes. Mr. Sly, who 
 is a large sack manufacturer, and Mr. Petherbridge. Mr. Sly employs a number 
 of women, and at slack times they are not constantly employed, and some 
 of them would no doubt apply. 
 
 1191. (Mr. Allen) : Was there any great exceptional distress last winter ? 
 It is a difficult question. I was anxious to find out, and when they were 
 getting this thing up, I went myself to the pawnbrokers and asked them. They 
 said they did not think there was. They were not doing so much business. 
 One man took me round and showed me his books. There was a falling-off in 
 the business that he had done. Mr. Turner suggested that this was evidence 
 of exceptional distress, and that the people had pawned most of their things. 
 The pawnbroker said he thought not, that for some years trade had fallen off. 
 He thought the people were more thrifty. They kept a little money in hand, 
 and did not bank with their pawnbroker as they used to do. 
 
 1192. The pawnbrokers, perhaps, could not say whether that was so or not ? 
 The two pawnbrokers agreed that pledges were being redeemed quite up to 
 the average. I also asked one of the grocers. He was of opinion that there 
 was a good deal of distress. The question I generally asked applicants was : 
 ' Have you got anything in pledge ? ' and they told me. I said I supposed they 
 had to do that every winter. They said, 'Yes, they did ; but this winter more 
 than usual ' ; and I think that was the case. These dock labourers there are 
 very few artisans get fair wages in the summer, and buy furniture and Sunday 
 suits of clothes, and in the winter they put them into pawn, and get them out in 
 the spring. They do this every year. 
 
 1193. Do you think, from what you have heard and seen, that there is likely 
 to be an outcry again this winter ? There is no reason why there should not 
 be. I don't think that there is any exceptional depression in the shipping 
 trade (that trade has been bad for some years), but a good deal of the trade 
 is leaving St. George's and going lower down the river. It is not a rising 
 neighbourhood. 
 
 1194. You say that greater care should be taken to ascertain if exceptional 
 distress exists you would get information from the Poor Law authorities and 
 clergy. What greater care would you take than that ? There are various 
 charitable societies who know something. Inquiry should be made by districts. 
 As far as I know, no one in East London was consulted about this. 
 
 1195. And supposing that distress was proved to be prevalent, would you 
 advocate another Lord Mayor's Fund again ? 1 confess my own experience was 
 that it was not satisfactory. We may have managed it badly, but I don't 
 think we could have done it differently. 
 
 1196. Would you advocate a labour test in all cases before assistance was 
 given ? I would unless a man showed that he was a provident man and had 
 belonged to some friendly club. I don't see how else you can check it. If you 
 go out into the streets and say your pockets are full of sovereigns to be given 
 away, you will have to have four policemen at the door. 
 
 1197. Do you know what Mr. Yallance's plan was sweeping the streets at 
 n'ght ? Yes ; but there was the difficulty about that that they have a contract 
 in St. George's. It would have been putting money into the contractor's 
 pockets. 
 
 1198. He thought the streets might have been swept twice where they are 
 now swept once ? That is so. My opinion is not worth much on that. 
 
 1199. If you have not a labour yard, what form would your labour test
 
 71 
 
 take ? We should have to arrange it with the parish authorities. It would Mr. T. MAOK.W. 
 have to be done somehow. juiTiTissG 
 
 1200. Would you advocate a labour yard being opened by the guardians ? 
 You mean whether the expense should fall upon the rates or charity ? I don't 
 see why it should not be done together. 
 
 1201. (Chairman) : How would you propose the machinery ? That is a 
 matter for the guardians they work quite in harmony with the Charity 
 Organisation Society in St. George's. I see no insuperable difficulty in 
 arranging machinery. 
 
 1202. (Mr. Allen) : Would you advocate that, in times of exceptional dis- 
 tress, free dinners should be given to the children and no assistance to the 
 parents 1 It is just the same difficulty that arises as when you are dealing with 
 the adults. You cannot tell whether the child's parent is unemployed or nob. 
 
 1203. Do you know that scheme that was tried at Stoke-on-Trent ; it is a 
 long time ago ; I think in 1836 '] I have heard of it. They opened a labour 
 yard and gave relief in food. 
 
 1 204. No ; those who said they were destitute had their food in the house, 
 but had not to sleep there. I am not sure that that would not be better than 
 the labour test, which is an interference with the labour market, and you 
 cannot get the people away ; you can't get rid of them ; they won't draft off. 
 In St. George's, labour is so abominably paid that I believe that any labour 
 yard you would open would be more profitable to them than working at 
 ordinary pay. 
 
 1205. You could give it them for a certain time you may allow a man three 
 weeks, or three days a week ? If you got 100 men at first, and the number rose 
 to 200, the yard would have a tendency to become permanent ; but I admit I 
 have no experience of labour yards. 
 
 120G. (Mr. Allen) : In our labour yard in St. Pancras we have no difficulty 
 about it. 
 
 1207. (Mr. Loch) : I suppose you think that one object of good administra- 
 tion would be to prevent the crowding of cases at a given point such as the 
 office of a Central Committee. The fewer number might then be properly dealt 
 with ? Yes. 
 
 1208. With that object would you advocate a very clear public statement, 
 showing what persons would not be assisted ? Certainly ; but with illiterate 
 people I do not think you would find that it would have the slightest effect. We 
 had large notices stuck up. 
 
 1209. Then you would have to make your arrangements privately ? Yes ; 
 if you go out into the streets with your pockets full of sovereigns, and have it 
 advertised that you are going to give them away, there is no end to the appli- 
 cations you will have to deal with. As an instance in point, just round the 
 corner, from our office in St. George's, there is a little court, by no means the 
 poorest in St. George's I believe that almost every single inhabitant applied. 
 They are all very poor, but a great many of them were no poorer than they 
 -always are. This shows how an advertisement brought in applications. 
 
 1210. Then the rule of privacy in almsgiving which holds good in regard to 
 ordinary charity would apply to exceptional distress 1 Yes ; unless the excep- 
 tional distress became gigantic. 
 
 1211. But take last year as a test ? I think it was. I think the people 
 would have got through ; they would have pawned more things. I don't 
 believe that there was starvation going on. 
 
 1212. Having created a large number of applications, you could not apply a 
 workhouse test for very shame ? That is so. I do not think our instructions 
 would have warranted'it at all events, it was not done anywhere. 
 
 1213. You mean outside St. George's-in-the-East ? I don't think it was 
 done anywhere. 
 
 1214. It was not done, I suppose, because people had not thought about 
 it 1 Well, I don't know ; I thought about it, but considered it impracticable 
 from the reason you suggest. 
 
 1215. You say you gave a great deal of money in rent ; did not that go to the 
 landlords ? Well, no ; because most of the people we relieved were a sort of 
 
 G 2
 
 72 
 
 3ffr. T. MACKAT. 
 
 July 9, 1886. 
 
 sub-tenants. We generally in paying had a sub-landlord to deal with. The 
 landlord and the tenant often both applied. 
 
 1216. Was the relief given mostly in doles 1 I think not in every case : 
 wemight have given in an exceptional case a few pounds. All these people are 
 very poor people. It is a puzzle how they live. I suppose they never earned 
 more than 10s. a week. You say they must necessarily be in distress, and 
 you give them something ; but they are not worse off than usual. 
 
 1217. Was the sewing test given to women ? Well, they had to work 
 for their relief. 
 
 1218. Did you find that serve the purpose ? Yes ; 1 believe the ladies who 
 managed it were very well satisfied. It would be going on still, I believe. 
 
 1219. (Chairman): You said there would be a great difficulty in applying a 
 stone yard test on account of the low rate of pay ? On account of the inter- 
 mittent state of labour. What is to prevent a man doing three days' work in 
 the stone yard and three days' work at the docks ? 
 
 1220. You don't mean that work is harder and more poorly paid at the 
 docks ? Some of it is. Some make large sums, I believe ; but there are different 
 sorts of work. I think for ordinary men it is 3s. a day ; but it is a good hard 
 day's work, and it is not regular that is the point. 
 
 1221. (Mr. Allen) : 3s. 4c/. a day is the dock labourer's pay. 
 
 1222. (The Hon. and Rev. A. C. Stanley) : Did you give three or four pounds 
 to one person ? I did it, but not frequently. When I got what I considered a 
 good case, I considered it best to set the man right up again, taking his things 
 out of pawn. I was informed that some men so relieved spent the money in 
 drink ; I therefore stopped giving money entirely, and, unless I had good 
 reason for it, gave the relief afterwards in tickets only. 
 
 1223. What was the smallest amount you gave ? 1 don't think I gave less 
 than 5s. Generally what I gave was 15s. in three tickets that is, 5s. a week 
 for three weeks. 
 
 Mr. T. W. 
 
 }( AIICH A NT. 
 
 Mr. T. W. MARCHANT, examined. 
 
 1224. (Chairman) : You are the Chairman of the Charity Organisation Com- 
 mittee at Deptford, and you come here to represent the Mansion House Com- 
 mittee at Deptford ? Yes ; they were in communication with the Rev. Brooke 
 Lambert, and he was to form a Committee for Deptford, Greenwich, Lewisham r 
 and I think Lee. He convened a meeting from the surrounding districts, and 
 formed Sub-Committees. We met at Greenwich from time to time to discuss 
 questions of policy, but the distribution was left to ourselves. 
 
 1225. You are fully acquainted with what went on in Deptford ? Did you 
 receive instructions from the Mansion House Committee ? No ; from Mr. 
 Lambert. 
 
 1226. They were Mansion House instructions ? Yes ; there were rules 
 as to labour test 3s. as the amount for single men, and so on. 
 
 1227. How much money did you have in Deptford ? 1,250. 
 
 1228. And how much did you spend ? We spent the whole of it except 
 about 50 expenses, and a balance in hand of 10. We spent in round 
 numbers 1,200. 
 
 1229. How many applications ; can you give me that ? No ; I have not got 
 that. Our Secretary said that the returns had all been sent in to the Mansion 
 House Committee. I should say that the average of each individual relief was 
 5s. on each occasion. 
 
 1230. Have you any idea how many were relieved ? That would give it you 
 approximately. They had on an average weekly relief for 'about three weeks. It 
 would give about 1,600 cases relieved. 
 
 1231. In what way did you get so many applications ? In the first instance, 
 bills were issued stating that applications for relief might be made at certain 
 places ; the Lecture Hall, Deptford, was one of them. We gave notice that 
 we were not relieving chronic cases, but cases out of work. We met Mr. Lambert 
 at Greenwich on Wednesday, and held our first meeting at Deptford on the 
 Friday evening, at which I was not present. I was there morning and
 
 , 
 
 73 
 
 evening afterwards daily during the whole week, and we were fairly besieged. -^ r ' Tl 
 
 The people used to come in crowds, and we had police outside to keep some sort 
 
 of order, and the applicants were let in one by one. There were two or three Jul i" 9 > l 
 
 committees in different rooms, and they came in and told their tales. In the 
 
 main I think at tirst there was not much investigation. 
 
 1232. But upon that point at first the people were relieved on the spot ? 
 Yes, but not without some preliminary form being gone through. The 
 Mansion House Committee in London suggested a form of inquiry to be made 
 in each case. We had these printed in large numbers, and we had persons to 
 see the applicants, so that, in fact, the circumstances of each case were filled up 
 by a clerk. 
 
 1233. By the person himself or under his dictation 1 Under his dictation. 
 After the first day or day and a half if any relief was given at once it was of 
 a temporary character the case stood for inquiry, and each paper was re- 
 ferred to some visitor to get the information. 
 
 1234. When you had made the inquiry, did it embrace communication with 
 the employer 1 Yes, we asked for all that. The name of last employer, we 
 stipulated for that, but we did not actually refer or make inquiries of the 
 employer. 
 
 1235. Any previous address ? Yes, and the number in family ; how long 
 In residence ; what was their last employment and rate of wages ; what 
 amount of pawn tickets they had, and the last employer and some person who 
 tould recommend them. 
 
 123G. When this paper was entirely completed and inquiry made, what 
 would it have contained beyond the impression of the visitor at the visit, which 
 would be the knowledge of some person living in the district ? They were 
 referred as far as possible to persons living in the district. We had a large 
 committee composed of the clergymen, principal tradesmen, and so on ; and 
 eventually we settled into a tolerable system. We ceased after the first week 
 to see applicants personally. We had these forms filled in and brought in. and 
 after the merits of the case had been discussed this relief was given. 
 
 1237.- Then they were disposed of by the Committee, and not by the 
 almoner ? What was the composition of the Committee ? We had ministers of 
 religion ; we had district visitors and men of that class, and we were fortunate 
 in having one or two foremen at Braby's and Penn's works, and they were very 
 useful. We had to meet in the morning and take down the cases, and we met 
 in the evening to decide upon them. 
 
 1238. Where is the stone yard 1 It is in Greenwich. 
 
 1239. Were you able to satisfy yourself that the same men who worked 
 there were not relieved by you ? We had a list of the stone-yard cases 
 before us. 
 
 1240. Was it your opinion that there was much exceptional distress in 
 Deptford ? There is a good deal of distress now. The whole of the ship- 
 builders are out of work. The trade seems to have left. 
 
 1241. So that there was exceptional distress I Yes. Another cause of 
 distress was that Penn's closed their works and threw out of employment a very 
 deserving class of men. 
 
 1242. And did you find that this superior class of men were got in by your 
 inquiries 1 Yes ; we were able to pay up their clubs for them ; they did not 
 .apply in the first few days. 
 
 1243. Do you think that your money reached the proper quarter 1 I have 
 jno doubt that it went to relieve cases of distress. There may have been some 
 mistakes, of course a lot of dock labourers and people undeserving. 
 
 1244. If you had time to make your arrangements, should you make them as 
 before ? I should avoid the system on which we worked at first, of allowing 
 all these people to come to us. The idea had got about that there was this 
 large sum of money subscribed at the Mansion House ; and when people saw 
 ifchis distribution going on, if it had not been done publicly they would have 
 suspected some fraud was going on. However, we soon found out that the first 
 arrangement would not do. 
 
 1245. You heard the evidence of the last witness, in which he expressed an
 
 UA' T ' \NT opinion adverse to a public fund as compared with one administered by existing 
 ___" ' institutions or private individuals ? No doubt about that. Good is done by 
 July 9, 1880. stealth if the money had been collected privately, and distributed without 
 this notoriety, it would have done many times as much good. 
 
 1246. (Mr. Alleti) : Are Penn's works closed altogether ? No ; they are 
 keeping their plant in order, but they have no contracts on hand. 
 
 1247. And in the next winter, the working people of Deptford will pro- 
 bably be as badly off as ever? No ; the workmen will get work elsewhere ;. 
 and though Penn's have not the contracts, Maudeslay's have got contracts, and 
 the Arsenal at Woolwich 
 
 1248. In the event of exceptional distress next winter, are you in favour of 
 a labour test if it were possible ? If you could put men into work. If a man is 
 starving, you must give him something at once ; subject to that, the best thing 
 is to give him work. 
 
 1249. Mr. Vallance has mentioned a test to be applied to all these people 
 to make them sweep the streets. Mr. Lambert brought forward that plan 
 before the District Board of Works for Greenwich. They were asked to organise 
 it. I don't know if there was any disinclination on the part of officials, but it 
 never came to anything. In Lewisham, they cleared and embanked a part of 
 the Ravensbourne; and, in Lee, a hill was levelled ; and in the neighbourhood 
 of Deptford employment was given in making ornamental gardens. 
 
 1250. Was that in connection with Lord Brabazon's Society ? Yes. 
 
 1251. Deptford is not a suburban Union, and, therefore, you would not be 
 able to give the same amount of work as Greenwich ? We are part of the 
 Greenwich Union. 
 
 1252. Then employment might be found for people in the suburbs, like 
 levelling ground ? Yes. 
 
 1253. Did the guardians give outdoor relief in Greenwich ? Yes, they do. 
 
 1254. Do they do it freely? No. 
 
 1255. Judiciously 1 It is chiefly confined to old persons over GO. I don't 
 think they are extravagant in giving it. 
 
 125G. Did you find many persons come in from the country ? No ; we 
 relieved no one not resident. 
 
 1257. No, but who came to reside there on that account ? No, I did not 
 find that ; its operation was too short. 
 
 1258. You managed to keep the people for as long as three weeks 1 Some 
 had relief as many as five weeks the cold weather continued such a very long 
 time. It was the greatest cause of distress. A large number of people, unem- 
 ployed during the winter painters and such classes found they had to hold on 
 five or six weeks longer than usual. 
 
 1259. Did you find it possible to distinguish between chronic cases and real 
 cases? Yes ; ultimately I think we could have worked it pretty well. 
 
 1260. And the amount that you had was the amount sufficient, or was 
 it merely a drop ? We did not want any more. They offered us more and we 
 did not take it. 
 
 1261. (Mr. Loch) : You said superior men in the end came in on account 
 of one man telling of another ? Yes ; it was very much the case. 
 
 1262. Then gradually you got touch of that class through the foremen you 
 mentioned ? Yes ; and through the district visitors. Many of the people had 
 resided in their lodgings for many years, and the people in Penn's had been 
 reduced to overwhelming distress. 
 
 1263. But that you learned not from their own applications but from the 
 knowledge that people already had of the distress ? Yes ; that was so. 
 
 1264. And at any future time such a plan in the district might be trusted 
 to again ? Certainly. 
 
 1265. Then these inquiries you had made, was the inquiry made by a 
 volunteer ? Entirely. 
 
 1266. Did they get to know the facts of a case ? Yes ; we were all educated 
 by our experience. 
 
 1267. And did you find that you gave not merely an allowance, a sum 
 down, but relief adjudicated to the wants of a case I Yes ; in some cases we
 
 75 
 
 went beyond the Mansion House Fund. We gave some as much as Ws. a Mr - T - w - 
 week. We went further by paying the club, and took things out of pawn ; UAtUHANT " 
 when they showed that they were in work we helped them in taking their July ;>, 1886. 
 things out of pawn. 
 
 1268. If there were to be a recurrence of distress, could the public rely 
 upon somebody in Deptford being able to draw together certain leading men 
 who would have touch of the best artisan class ? Yes, to a certain extent 
 not perfectly but tolerably. 
 
 1269. Were the cases in Committee taken at a great rate 1 At first, but 
 afterwards with fair deliberation. 
 
 1270. You think it is better that you should not see the applicant per- 
 sonally ? In some cases we allowed them to come and see us, but the most 
 respectable class did not care to come. 
 
 1271. Is the work as well as the labourer in the neighbourhood 1 The 
 dock labourers live with us, but their work is the other side of the river. 
 
 1272. But still they would be the paupers under the Poor Law ? 
 Perfectly true. 
 
 1273. Are you not liable to this everywhere, more or less ? Very soon we 
 ceased relieving dock labourers. They had to shift for themselves every winter, 
 and were no worse off than usual. 
 
 1274. Do they apply to the Poor Law ? Some of them, but no one knows 
 how they live. In the summer these men can get 2. 2s. a week. 
 
 1275. (Mr. Allen) : It is those who carry the timber. Most of them live 
 on their wives and children, I think ? Possibly. When Mr. Fuller was on our 
 Committee, some attempt to organise some provident system among them was 
 made, but nothing substantial was effected. 
 
 1276. (Mr. Loch) : At any rate, this attempt had no permanent result ? 
 Quite so. 
 
 1277. Was there any attempt made to make the relief tend to providence 
 and thrift ? Only so far that we encouraged those who showed they were 
 thrifty ; those in clubs had favour shown to them. 
 
 1278. Did you pay rent 1 No ; none whatever. 
 
 1279. That is distinctly contrary to the previous witness ? Yes. 
 
 1280. Your reason I I suppose our connection with this Society. It was 
 due to that. 
 
 1281. Are there not a large number who sublet the houses in your neighbour- 
 hood ? There are a great many, but not in the poor class. 
 
 1282. Was the relief generally in kind I No ; about two-fifths in kind. 
 Where we found deserving people whom we could thoroughly trust, we gave 
 in money, because our impression was that it would go as far again. 
 
 1283. The more you could trust the people, the more you would give in 
 money? Yes. 
 
 1284. So that the relief in kind would be the test to show doubtful cases ? 
 That is it. 
 
 1285. Would you propose supposing another public fund anything like a 
 direct statement of the classes which you would approve of as classes for 
 relief, and classes that you would like to exclude ? Yes ; I think it is a desirable 
 thing very desirable. 
 
 Mr. W. HEALE, examined. 
 
 1286. (CJiairman) : What district ? Wandsworth and Clapham. Mr. W. HEALE. 
 
 1287. You were on the Mansion House Committee 1 Yes, and was Hon. 
 Secretary for the three Committees of Battersea. 
 
 1288. Did all the money that came pass through your hands 1 Yes, all 
 three divisions. 
 
 1289. How much money ? Well, I have not got if, but I think it was about 
 1,700 for Battersea. 
 
 1290. Was that under the supervision of one Committee ? No, three Com- 
 mittees. One had 700, another 600, and another had '400. 100 and odd 
 was returned.
 
 76 
 
 Mr. W. HEALE. 1291. Can you give me the number of persons that applied ? I think No. 1 
 
 July 9, 1886. Committee had about 700 ; No. 2 Committee had 1,300 ; and No. 3, 1/200. 
 
 1292. How many of those were relieved 1 About 75 per cent. 
 
 1293. Had you instructions from the Mansion House ? We started very 
 early. We drew up a code of rules which the Mansion House adopted. 
 
 1294. Those are the rules we are acquainted with ? We adhered to those 
 very closely. We had a rule that if a person had resided in the parish less 
 than three months no, six months they got no reliaf. We got them a'l to 
 come to the Committees. They had forms which they had to fill up, and the 
 
 inquiries were carried out in each case. The clergymen and others examined 
 each case in his own district. 
 
 1295. After they had made their inquiries, did they send in their reports ? 
 They came back to the Committee with the forms, and the Committee decided 
 upon them. After the first time the condition of relief was decided by the 
 visitor. 
 
 1296. In the first instance the visitor ? No ; in the first instance the Com- 
 mittee decided the case ; when the forms were brought back after inquiry, the 
 Committee decided how much he should have. Then relief was given week 
 after week, but that was decided by the visitor. 
 
 1297. What points were the inquiries directed to 1 Were you able to 
 communicate with the employer ? No ; in the district in which we lived many 
 belong to the building trade stonemasons, bricklayers, and so on. The men 
 work all over London ; we could not get at the employers at all. 
 
 1298. Was a reference seen in most cases 1 We had no references. We 
 had to take the visitors and clergymen, who reported after visiting in their own 
 districts. 
 
 1299. Your impression, so far as you can form an opinion, was that the 
 information you got was sufficient to enable you to come to a correct decision ? 
 No, I am afraid not, but in the short time it was the best that could be 
 done. 
 
 1300. Did it go to the right quarters, do you think] Some went where it 
 should not go, no doubt. 
 
 1301. You have heard the last two gentlemen give their evidence ; do you 
 agree with them that so much publicity is undesirable I Well, perhaps it was, 
 but we did the other way. We got overflooded with people, and it was quite a 
 week or ten days before we could attend to them. I am inclined to think that 
 publicity was the best thing for it. If it had been given in a private manner 
 we should not have found out t-o many deserving people these people who 
 have been relieved. The very first sum that was sent was sent to the clergy, 
 and that was administered worse than aftt-rwards. I don't think too much 
 publicity could be given in a matter of this kind. 
 
 1302 In fact, you take an opposite view to that taken by Ihese two gentle- 
 men? Yes, we found many cases that were deserving, and many that were not, 
 by inquiries in the neighbourhood. One would tell us, ' He ought not to have 
 it : I saw him in such-and-such a house ; he is a drunken man,' and so on. We 
 have streets of poor people, and the clergy know them well ; and we got all the 
 clergy and dissenting ministers, and they went about together, and each case 
 was visited. 
 
 1303. Is there a stone yard in your neighbourhood ? We knew that there 
 was a great deal of distress. We were building a workhouse, and we determined 
 to utilise the labour and not open a stone yard, but to make them dig sand, 
 which would be better than breaking stones dig out the sand and put in the 
 foundations and give them 2s. Gd. a day. The Mansion House Fund Com- 
 mittees sent up the people. The money was to be paid by the poor rates ; 
 and we gave the Mansion House Committees the means of testing their cases. 
 
 1304. Did the Committee avail themselves of the offer? We said the first 
 two days we could take on 200, and we got 300 ; then we got to 250, and after 
 six weeks we got back to 95. 
 
 1305. You consider that experiment a success 1 I am sure of that. I 
 saw the men at work and found many men there whose hands were bleeding 
 with the work men who had never handled a spade before.
 
 77 
 
 1306. Did you get good work out of them ? We did not. We did not expect Mr. w. HI: ALE. 
 it We thought it better to get sand which we could get rid of, and we thought, Julv 1M <.. 6 
 if we did lose a little, it would be better than stone breaking. There is a knack 
 
 in breaking stones. 
 
 1307. (Chairman) : Yes, I have tried it myself and don't like it. It requires 
 some geological knowledge to break a stone properly. We have spent some 
 1,200, and have only lost 30, so that the poor rates have not suffered. 
 
 1308. In your part of the world, as in other parts, is outdoor relief ? 
 
 We don't give outdoor relief, except to widows and children, and a few aged 
 people. We are a young parish ; we have no old people. We have a lot of young 
 men come down there, and they have perhaps died off and left their widows 
 and children, and these we take in hand. 
 
 1309. (Mr. Allen) : There was great distress, you think? I am sure of it. 
 
 1310. Do you think, as a guardian, you would have been able to cope with it ? 
 We were preparing for it. We saw a lot of it. I was living in the midst of 
 it myself. We got the relieving officers to report some weeks before whether 
 there was exceptional distress iu their district, and they reported that 
 there was. 
 
 1311. Most of the Unions reported that there was not? I am inclined to 
 think that the fault lay with the relieving officers. It is their habit to report 
 that there is not more than usual of distress, because they only go by the 
 applications on their books, and there are many people who never apply to the 
 relieving officer. 
 
 1312. If there was this exceptional distress, would they not apply to the 
 relieving officer ? Never. 
 
 1313. You think that was the only ground on which the relieving officer 
 made his report? We told them to go and make inquiries. If you take a 
 relieving officer's word, he will say, ' I have no more applications this week than 
 last.' There are hundreds of working men in our district who are above the 
 workhouse and would rather starve. 
 
 1314. Your district is inhabited by a better class ? We have not the real 
 ragged pauper. 
 
 1315. You have no slums? No, none whatever. 
 
 1310. They are all working men ? Yes ; men earning two or three guineas 
 a week. 
 
 1317. Were those men working at the sand ? Were they clerks ? Yes ; 
 clerks I think. There were some thirty or forty out of employment. We made 
 it a rule ; we put a ganger on, and told him that, if a man was not accustomed 
 to the work, to work him lightly. 
 
 1318. You advocate a labour test that you think is an absolute necessity ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1319. And would you advocate another Mansion House Fund being raised ? 
 Not administered in the same way. 
 
 1320. Would you advocate it ? Yes ; I don't think we could get money 
 otherwise. The administration was what was bad. 
 
 1321. And you think, with the experience you have had, you would be able 
 to administer it very much better ? I am afraid we should not administer it 
 much better, because we have not time to make proper inquiries. 
 
 1322. But suppose you had got your machinery in form a month before- 
 hand ? They are simple volunteers ; they have to take what people say. 
 
 1323. The men live down there, and they work in all parts of London ? 
 
 1324. (Chairman) : Did it ever occur to you that you might make the 
 inquiries by letter ? We had thought of that : we had two clerks at work. 
 
 1325. Would it not have been well to have more clerks ? I had to manage 
 an operation of the sort, and the employers answered wonderfully well. A 
 great deal more might have been done if we had time. 
 
 1326. (Mi: A lleii) : You don't think that, in the event of there being excep- 
 tional distress, there would not be proper time to make proper inquiries ? No ; 
 the rush is too great. When you get 300 or 400 rushing into a room every day, 
 it is impossible. You could not do much in two or three hours. 
 
 1327. You say you would object to money being raised privately ? I am 
 afraid the wrong people would get it just the same.
 
 78 
 
 >ir. w. HEALE. 1328. Would you suggest that a federation of charities such as the Charity 
 Organisation Society and the Mansion House Fund, to relieve distress, &c., 
 would work together ? Supposing they could get the funds. 
 
 1329. Supposing the Lord Mayor made the application to the people to pay 
 their money to them ? I think it would be much better. 
 
 1330. Under these circumstances it would be better than having a Mansion 
 House Fund ? 
 
 1331. (Mr. Loch) : You said that you relied upon publicity to check the 
 applications ? Not to check the applications, but to check the giving of relief. 
 
 1332. But if your inquiry had been what you would have wished, then the 
 need of publicity would be less ? Quite so. 
 
 1333. But under the circumstances you found there always will be great 
 pressure ? Yes. 
 
 1334. And that pressure makes sufficient inquiry impossible ? What I 
 consider sufficient inquiry. 
 
 1335. Then does that not point to the great undesirability of a fund I Oh, yes, 
 I don't agree with a fund administered as it was last time. 
 
 1336. And it is difficult to administer a large fund any other way 1 Quite 
 so. 
 
 1337. Then the question comes again, if we are to do justice to the applicants, 
 in the administration of such a fund we must deal with comparatively few ? 
 Quiteso. 
 
 1338. Woiild you state that such-and-such cases would not be assisted ? We 
 did in our district. 
 
 1339. Persons who had not resided three months, and who had been out of 
 work for six months, &c. ; and conversely also you said that those who had 
 made a good struggle for themselves would be assisted ? Yes. 
 
 1340. So far you are satisfied with the programme you have got ? We were 
 not very liberal. 
 
 1341. You say guardians are to deal with destitution ? Yes. 
 
 1342. Yet there was comparatively little pressure on the Poor Law ? Yes. 
 
 1343. Then the Poor Law did not perform its function ? Yes ; the Poor Law 
 could not deal with the poor except on application. 
 
 1344. Apart from application being made to the Poor Law, the destitution 
 would not be relieved by the Poor Law ? It never is. You mean to say that 
 a large amount of destitution was not dealt with by the guardians ? 
 
 1345. Yes ; and the reason for not dealing with the destitution through the 
 Poor Law Guardians was what ? Because the poor do not apply. 
 
 1346. Then there are two classes of persons who want work and will not 
 apply to the Poor Law what one may call the respectable and the idle. Did 
 you reject the latter ? Oh ! a large number. 
 
 1347. Referring them to the Poor Law ? Oh ! a large number of doubtful 
 cases which the Poor Law would not relieve, except by the workhouse, applied 
 to the Mansion House Fund and were sent to the labour-yard test. Some 
 would not accept it. 
 
 1348. How did these people live ? We see them standing at the street 
 corners all the year round. I think their wives must get their living at the 
 laundries about. 
 
 1349. Then, owing to the labour of the wives, the Poor Law is not wanted 
 for their destitution I We cannot alter the Poor Law. 
 
 1350. We will take the other class ; the Poor Law does not affect them, 
 because they will not apply. Is it to be taken for granted that, under these 
 circumstances, we are to have relief funds created by charity ? I think not. I 
 think poor people can always tide through the winter as a rule. 
 
 1351. You think it was an exceptional winter ? I am quite sure. 
 
 1352. And with an exceptional winter like this, we must be prepared to 
 have funds special funds 1 Well, I don't know if one could be prepared with 
 a fund waiting. But I think we shan't get such a winter again for some years. 
 
 1353. Is not trade very bad ? Yes, I think I mentioned that ; but I found 
 from some I applied to that they had a lot of things in pawn and are redeeming 
 them.
 
 79 
 
 1354. Does not that show that that will recur next winter ? You think that Mr. w. HEALE 
 there is enough flush of work to enable them to recover those? Yes. j u i a isse 
 
 1355. You say many builders out of work do you mean the whole of 
 them ? Yes, right through. 
 
 1356. Are there any who would emigrate ? Very few. Two applied in the 
 whole district one at Putney, and one at Clapham. 
 
 1357. And do you think the building operations are carried on with the 
 same vigour ? Yes ; large districts of small streets are being built now. 
 
 1358. And they can get local work and do not care to emigrate ? Just so. 
 
 1359. You had several working men in connection with the Mansion House 
 Fund Committee ? Yes, some 12 or 15. 
 
 1360. And you found that you heard from them of people in distress 1 No, 
 whether people were deserving. 
 
 1361. Did you find that they knew of people who would not apply publicly, 
 and who ought to be helped ? They did not mention it. 
 
 1362. Then what was said just now by Mr. Marchant would not be appli- 
 cable to Battersea ? Not to our district. 
 
 1363. Under circumstances like last winter complete information is desirable 
 in regard to the state of the labour market ? Yes. 
 
 1364. You made inquiry through the relieving officers 1 Yes. 
 
 1365. As to the amount of distress ? Yes. 
 
 1366. And you gave them instructions to go and find it out 1 Yes, that 
 was through my asking the relieving officer whether there was not more than 
 ordinary distress, when he said, ' Oh, no, no more than usual.' I then made 
 inquiries for some few weeks, in consequence of which I moved that we should 
 give the relieving officers instructions to go and inquire at the houses, and not 
 rest satisfied with the reply,' Oh, we have no more applications than usual.' The 
 result was that they found that the people would not apply ; but they said 
 there was a lot of distress after they had inquired in the neighbourhood. 
 
 1367. This is a most vital question. Would you send in future years, not 
 as a guardian, but as an individual ; would you write to employers, or in any 
 way, early in November, learn how the tide was going ? You might get where 
 trade was brisk ; but I think each district should be visited, and in each district 
 each street. It is quite easy to know. The neighbours can give you the name 
 of every one in the street who is out of employ. We should test the cases. 
 But when we made it known that the Mansion House Fund was coming, the 
 people were able to give me the names of cases all down the street. 
 
 1368. Would you be able to distinguish between winter chronic out-of-work 
 cases and exceptional cases ? There is nothing the poor detest more than these 
 chronic out-of-work cases. 
 
 1369. And you would suggest some such previous investigation as that ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1370. (Chairman) : One more question. You say that there was a great 
 deal of distress in your district, though the relieving officer's books showed no 
 increase of applications . It is true, I should imagine, taking the building trade 
 as a starting point, that the same circumstances would have applied to a 
 lower class? You cannot get even the labourer in the winter to apply to the 
 workhouse. They say, ' We break up the home, and we come out in the spring 
 worse off than when we went in.' 
 
 1371. There are a certain class who won't apply ; but is there not a class who 
 will apply a much lower grade ? By the circumstances that would bring the 
 higher class down, the lower class would also be pinched, and they would apply 
 to the workhouse ? But the very worst men, if able bodied, won't apply to the 
 workhouse. 
 
 1372. (Mr. Loch) : Would it be practicable to apply such a test as was applied 
 at Stoke-on-Trent, where the people came to the workhouse for their meals, 
 but did not sleep there ? At that time there was a very severe local crisis from 
 lack of work ; this test was applied, and it answered in a wonderful way ; the 
 applications dwindled down quickly, and there \vas no disturbance of the labour 
 market by the creation of unnecessary works. Did wives and children come in ? 
 
 1373. Yes ; wives and children all came in. We could not feed all the 
 wives and children of those that would apply.
 
 80 
 
 Mr. w. EEALE. 1374. The question is the validity of the test ? I think the stone-yard test 
 
 July 9, 1886. * s a Vei 7 hard one, because the man works for ninepence a day, and gets half of 
 that in kind. 
 
 1375. (Chairman) : The respectable artisan who never applies finds it very 
 hard to break stones, whereas to the loafer it is very easy. I don't like stone- 
 breaking. 
 
 1376. (Mr. Loch) : Would you not be prepared to fall back on cleaning the 
 roads? That is all done by contract. That would be putting money in the 
 pockets of the contractors. 
 
 1377. I am trying to find a way out of the difficulty you suggest. We find 
 we were under great difficulty in finding some employment for the unemployed, 
 and we could not do it because of the contracts. If the Clapham district had 
 been their own scavengers, we could have done it very well. 
 
 1378. Taking this view of the question, that it is desirable to give* other 
 labour than the stone yard, would you be prepared to carry out earthworks at 
 a comparatively low rate of wage or would you pay the contract price ? No, 
 not more than half contract prices ; the work is not worth half-a-crown. If 
 you have a ganger there, some people are worth 2s. Some people don't do. 
 You have to put up with half work, because, if a man has never wheeled a 
 barrow before, you could not expect him to do it. 
 
 1379. That was his incompetency, and not laziness 1 Just so. 
 
 Miss M. M. GEE, examined. 
 
 Miss M. M. GEE. 1380. (Chairman) : You have had some experience in Deptford ? Yes. 
 
 1381. What you are going to tell us now is not particularly about the 
 Mansion House Fund ? I had something to do in it, but I had to give it up. 
 
 1382. Were you a member of the Committee for Deptford ? Yes, 1 was 
 in the commencement, and acted in the work later on, and helped them with 
 the inquiries. 
 
 1383. You were present when it was mentioned what was done as to the 
 applications made_in the first two or three days ! I think they were improperly 
 dealt with. 
 
 1384. Could you have suggested an improved way 1 Did they come by 
 three or four hundred a day, being seen by sub-committees, and was relief given 
 on the few inquiries that could be made ? Were you present when that was 
 going on ? I was. 
 
 1385. Several improper persons must have been relieved ? Yes. 
 
 1386. When you got more into swing, were you still a member of the Com- 
 mittee? They were just getting into swing when I left them. 
 
 1387. They never saw the employer ? I investigated in a few cases 
 myself, according to the directions of the Committee, and found it most unsatis- 
 factory. 
 
 1388. How far did you push the inquiry ? I was first told to go to the 
 home and question with regard to the work. I was not obliged to go to the 
 employer. Later on there were relief works under the Kyrle Society. I 
 made inquiries. I asked for letters ; they were brought by the applicants ; but I 
 could test whether they were genuine. They had them principally from the 
 foreman of Penn's works. 
 
 1389. So far as your observation goes, did the relief that was administered 
 by the Committee reach the genuine cases r" I think it was a mere chance 
 whether it reached cases of genuine distress or whether they were chronic cases, 
 or cases where work was given up to get at the fund. 
 
 1390. Do you think there was distress which it failed to touch ? I am 
 sure of that. 
 
 1391. Some witnesses have expressed the opinion that the fund itself was 
 a failure. Can you suggest that, if benevolent persons had sent their money to 
 local societies instead of the Mansion House Fund, it would have been better ? 
 I should have thought that the branch of the Charity Organisation Society 
 would have done bttter.
 
 81 
 
 1392. You would suggest that a large subscription, to the Charity Organisa- 
 tion Society would have answered better ? Yes. 
 
 1393. Are you a member of the Society in that part of the world ? Yes. 
 
 1394. Had they anything to do with the administration of the fund ? The 
 Committee of the Charity Organisation Society helped with the Mansion House 
 Fund Committee, but not officially. 
 
 1395. Were their offices made use of ? Not at all. 
 
 1390. You have experience as a rent collector, I think ? Yes ; Miss Hill is 
 working down there, and I am under her. I only collect from six houses, but I 
 have to do with some of the other houses, and sometimes was asked to do what 
 was necessary in regard to sanitary operations. 
 
 1397. Did you practically find that your tenants were much more in arrcar 
 than usual ? Yes. 
 
 1398. Were you able to apply your severe rules to these persons? In some 
 cases. I think now only one of my own tenants, who form a very small part 
 of the whole, has increased her arrears. All the others stand as they did last 
 winter. 
 
 1399. You don't know if any were able to hold their own by assistance from 
 the Mansion House Fund ? The only one of my own that I got assistance for 
 disappeared in the middle of the night. 
 
 1400. Are you able to speak as to the general distress in the district as to 
 the distress being exceptionally great ? Only as far as the cases coming before 
 the Charity Organisation Society ; and also, I believe, there was an increase of 
 applications to the poor house. 
 
 1401. (Chairman) : I think the contrary is the case. 
 
 (Mr. Loch read an extract as to the fact of there being fewer applications.*) 
 
 1402. That was the reply sent by the Board in February tj the Local 
 Government Board ? I cannot speak with any confidence about it. We heard 
 that there had been an increase of applications. 
 
 1403. Was the Charity Organisation Committee of opinion that there was 
 exceptional distress among the class that applied to them '? -We thought there 
 was more distress, but we could not prove it by our own books. 
 
 1404. Was there more distress among your tenantry 1 Yes, in March and 
 April. 
 
 1405. (Mr. Allen) : Should you be in favour of a Mansion House Fund 
 being raised again in case of a severe winter ? Yes, if it were distributed by 
 the Charity Organisation Society. 
 
 1400. Would you call an Official Committee, composed of the Charity 
 Organisation Society and the Almoners of the Society for Relief of Distress, 
 and some of the clergy, a body of administrators you would approve ? Yes. 
 
 1407. Do you think the publicity of the Mansion House Fund a good or a 
 bad thing ? I think it did harm. 
 
 1408. You would be in favour of funds being raised privately instead of 
 publicly that the Lord Mayor were to ask the public to strengthen the bonds 
 of private societies 1 Would it be given over to a local Committee ? 
 
 1409. The question which I wanted to know from you was, whether you 
 would strengthen the hands of existing charitable institutions in Deptford 
 rather than appeal to the Lord Mayor ? Yes. 
 
 1410. (M v . Loch) : You attended the Committees at the Mansion House for 
 the first fortnight or three weeks ? 
 
 1411. Could you in any way describe the way in which, actually, decisions 
 were taken was it done very fast ? Done very fast indeed. First of all we 
 had two clerks writing, and forms were filled up, simply from the statements of 
 the applicants, and they were handed in and judged of by the Committee. There 
 was investigation as to second applications afterwards. 
 
 1412. Judging from special cases within your own knowledge, do you think 
 
 * The Clerk to the Guardians, Greenwich Union, 17th February, 1888: 'There has. 
 not been recently any unusual increase in the number of applications for out-relief, which 
 are now rather less than in the corresponding period last year .... No exceptional 
 arrangements appear to be necessary at the present time to meet the distress, with which 
 they have to deal.' Return, Pauperism and Distress, 8th March, 1886.
 
 82 
 
 Miss M. M. GKK. that harm was distinctly done that people were degraded by the relief ? I 
 July 9 1886 thinik. so. Those who deserved least were helped. 
 
 1413. The people that you went to were people who required to be raised up, 
 and some character to be put into them ? Yes, they wanted energy and increase 
 of self-respect, and this rather decreased it. 
 
 1414. Could we arrange to get such information in your district as to enable 
 us to judge of the amount of distress in your neighbourhood before coming to 
 such a pass ? I don't think we have any organisation for such a purpose at 
 present. 
 
 1415. As to the collection of information as to the amount of distress, could 
 they get better information than last year ? I don't think they have any means 
 of obtaining it. 
 
 1416. There is no single person in Deptford who could do it ? 
 
 1417. Did you inquire into these cases ? A few of them. 
 
 1418. Did you find it possible with other work on hand to do it at all 
 thoroughly ? 1 did at first. I; was asked afterwards to go to the homes and make 
 inquiries. In some places I found them very comfortable, and in one case I 
 found them sitting down to a meat dinner. I went sometimes in the daytime 
 and sometimes in the evening. 
 
 1419. And the greater distress was in March and April ? In my own ex- 
 perience. 
 
 1420. That is to say, the distress became felt the results of the pressure 
 showed themselves ? 1 think so. 
 
 1421. Did you find somewhat later that there was distress owing to the severity 
 of the winter and out of work ? In many cases the distress has continued to 
 the present time. It is almost as severe now as in the spring. 
 
 1422. What is being done now for the people ? Nothing on any definite 
 plan. 
 
 1423. So that practically we only dealt with a crisis, which we, so to speak, 
 created in our imaginations ? I think so. 
 
 1424. Is there anything that you would suggest that would touch the radical 
 evil that is going on now ? Are these people likely to find work ? I should 
 think emigration or supplemental labour. 
 
 1425. But practically there is a great deal of out-of-work which is not being 
 helped now ? Yes. 
 
 (27ie Committee then adjourned.) 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 16iH, 1886. 
 Present THE HON. AND REV. CANON LEGGE, in the Chair. 
 
 Rev. BROOKE LAMBERT, Hon. and Rev. A. C. STANLEY, 
 Mr. A. G. CROWDER, Dr. G. B. LONGSTAFF, 
 Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD, Mr. E. PETERS, 
 Mr. J. H. ALLEN, 
 
 Mr. R. HEDLEY, attending on behalf of the Local Government Board. 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 MRS. AVIS, examined. 
 
 Mrs. Avis. 1426. (Chairman) : You reside in Walworth, I believe, Mrs. Avis 1 Yes ; 
 
 at 5 Refferton Street, Weston Street, Old Kent Road. 
 
 July ic, I8?c. 1427. And are there any special points that you would wish to be examined 
 
 upon ? Not that I know of. I have known the district for the last twenty 
 years, and there is a great improvement in the people in St. Mary's, New- 
 ington. 
 
 1428. And you consider the condition of the people is improved '? Wonder- 
 fully, especially within the last few years.
 
 83 
 
 1429. You think there has been a tendency for the better-to-do people to Mrs. AVIS. 
 move further off 1 Yes. July ic, i.sse. 
 
 1430. And that the population is of a poorer class ? No ; I find the people 
 whom I have to work with move away as soon as they are better off. We have 
 new people continually coming in. 
 
 1431. And the process is a process of improvement while they are there 1 - 
 Yes. 
 
 1432. Were you connected with the Mansion House Fund when it was 
 going on 1 Yes. 
 
 1433. And in your experience was there more distress or less distress than 
 usual in the winter ? Something after the same not more than usual and 
 the general condition of the people was better than it had been. 
 
 1434. That is in consequence of their own improvement in the way of 
 thrift ? Yes ; I think there is a very great deal of improvement, and the tem- 
 perance movement has done a great deal of good. We have a working men's 
 club, and there are the different lodges of temperance. 
 
 1435. Do you think that there was any special occasion for the Mansion 
 House Fund? Yes ; I know many cases in which the homes would have been 
 broken up but for that. 
 
 1436. Were those cases which would not have occurred in previous years ? 
 No ; it was slackness of work. I know two cases where the homes would 
 have been broken up but for that fund. 
 
 1437. What are the details of those cases ? One was a case that came from 
 Newcastle, and one was a man who was out of employment for four months, 
 and his clothes got so shabby that Miss Grogan advanced him money to get 
 clothes, and then he got employment again. 
 
 1438. What was his employment previously ? A salesman. 
 
 1439. Is that a man who is employed by others 1 Yes ; the cause of sever- 
 ance was the failure of trade. They had to reduce their staff. 
 
 1440. What particular trade was he concerned with 1 The boot business. 
 
 1441. And you consider that there was more slackness last winter than in 
 previous winters 1 Yes. 
 
 1442. Was that before the winter came on 1 Yes ; and I am afraid of 
 another like it. 
 
 1443. Suppose we go back to the winter of 1884-85, would there have been 
 a special fund in that winter 1 No ; Mr. Praed was exceedingly kind that 
 winter. The distress has been gradually coming on for the last five years. 
 
 1444. And it reached the worst point last winter ? Yes. 
 
 1445. Under these circumstances, do you consider that there should be 
 another Mansion House Relief Fund? That is a question I could hardly 
 answer. 
 
 1446. Have you any idea in your own mind how to meet the cases of dis- 
 tress ? I have heard that there are a few pounds left from the Relief Fund, 
 and I think it ought to be reserved for the coming winter. 
 
 1447. What plan was adopted last winter in your district for the distribution 
 of the fund ? On No. 1 Board, I think there were eleven members appointed, 
 and out of the eleven there were two or three working men to investigate the 
 cases. 
 
 1448. A committee of eleven, two of whom were working men ? Yes. 
 
 1449. They all knew the people very well ? Yes. 
 
 1450. In what form was relief given for the most part? Money, and 
 tickets for grocery, meat, coals, &c. 
 
 1451. Were there a very large number of applications ? Very great ; we 
 did not relieve all. 
 
 1452. Could you give me the number ? I think, by what I could judge, 
 there were between three and four hundred. 
 
 1453. And how many did you relieve ? Mr. Golds relieved fifty, I think, 
 through my help. 
 
 1454. That was in that ward ? Yes ; No. 1 Ward. 
 
 1455. Now, in the case of those fifty who were relieved, you have told us 
 of one case ; would most of them be similar cases to that ? Yes. There was a
 
 Mrs. Avis. case of the name of Broad. They were very destitute, and were relieved to 
 juiy"i6~i8SG. *^ e amoun * f ^'3 or 4. And another case in Townsend Street, Kent Road 
 they were relieved to the amount of 3. 
 
 1456. If fifty were relieved out of three or four hundred, that would leave 
 many who were not relieved why were they refused ? I don't know that they 
 were refused. 
 
 1457. But I suppose there were undeserving cases in the ward ? Yes ; we 
 had to use our own judgment. 
 
 1458. Was careful investigation made ? Yes, we investigated all ; there 
 were Mr. Golds, Mr. Lafone, and others. 
 
 1459. Were there any guardians on your Committee ? Yes, several of them. 
 
 1460. Were you in communication with the Charity Organisation Society ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1461. Were any members of the local committee of the Charity Organi- 
 sation Society members of your Committee ? Mr. Gardiner used to attend 
 the local committee. 
 
 1462. Did you refer any cases to the Charity Organisation Society for inves- 
 tigation ? Yes ; .to Miss Grogan. 
 
 1463. Do you consider that next winter the distress is likely to be as great ? 
 Yes ; emigration is a most difficult question. They don't like to leave. 
 
 1464. And there has been no signs of revival of trade this summer ? Not 
 any. 
 
 1465. Supposing there were the same amount of distress next winter, you 
 said that there was a certain sum over which should be reserved to apply in 
 the way of relief ? Yes. 
 
 1466. Is that surplus sufficient to meet your wants ? No. 
 
 1467. Then you think it would be desirable to raise another fund to carry 
 people through the winter next year, or as long as the fund lasts ? And with 
 regard to the manner of administration, would you propose it should be adminis- 
 tered by Committees as last year ? Yes. There were some discontented people, 
 but, as a rule, we found them very satisfied. 
 
 1468. Which do you consider best, money or kind ? They all prefer money, 
 but it is not well to give money at all times. 
 
 3469. Under what circumstances would it not be well? Sometimes they 
 make a bad use of it. 
 
 1470. Did you inquire into the character ? Yes, and if the character was 
 good we would give them relief. 
 
 1471. You mean that in some cases of relief given the persons relieved were 
 not the very best characters ? No. But some don't lay out the money pro- 
 perly. If they have to get provisions, they don't make it go as far as it 
 might be made to go. 
 
 1472. Would it not be well that they should learn by experience how to spend 
 money ? Yes ; but it's a hard task. 
 
 1473. I suppose they think they would be able to do better for themselves ? 
 We can't make them understand that. 
 
 1474. You mean they do not make it go as far as possible ? Yes. 
 
 1475. With some of them you were acquainted before ? Yes ; I have lived 
 so long with them in amongst them all. 
 
 1476. Have you had applications from classes you would not have expected 
 them from 1 No ; very few indeed. 
 
 1477. This is a state of affairs thatyou think now is chronic in your district ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1478. Is there anything that you suggest that would relieve the distress, 
 apart from the Mansion House Fund to improve their position ? No. It is 
 a thing I have often thought of and studied, but I can't do it. You may lead 
 them sometimes by being kind. 
 
 1479. But by being kind you don't necessarily employ them ? No ; there is 
 no employment now starting. In a few weeks we shall lose many; they will 
 be going into the country harvesting and hop-picking. 
 
 1480. But they will come back, and be again on your hands ? Yes ; they 
 will come back, no doubt.
 
 85 
 
 1481. What is the trade in tlie district? Costermongers an:l labourers, and Mrs. AVIS. 
 trush drawers. 
 
 1482. And there is slackness in the trade? Yes, in the brush trade 
 especially. 
 
 1483. You mentioned bootmakers ? Yes, and they are slack also. 
 
 1484. Then I suppose the only thing would be to go elsewhere? Yes ; 
 they are paid so badly for their work. 
 
 1485. That is another reason for going elsewhere, to be bettor paid ? They 
 cannot find it ; that is the difficulty. 
 
 1486. (Rev. Brooke Lambert) : You spoke of the class of people having 
 improved you mean by reason of the generality of them belonging to clubs ? 
 No ; they are improved in themselves ; they are cleaner, much cleaner. 
 
 1487. They take better care of their money ? Yes, some of them. 
 
 1488. Do you like to get them to belong to clubs ? Yes ; we have an Invest- 
 ment Society in Green Walk ; we have 2,000 members in it. The money is 
 divided at Christmas, and it begins the first week in the new year, and they go 
 on for fifty .weeks, and that entitles them to 25s. I cannot get many to do it. 
 They let their children put their pennies and farthings into it,because they have 
 a share which provides them with boots for the winter. 
 
 1489. Or you give interest ? Yes, 1 f9r every share, with Is. Gd. added 
 and last year they shared 26s. Sd. each share. 
 
 1490. Do you ever find them going into the Post Office Savings Bank ? 
 Very few indeed. 
 
 1491. The people who keep 28s. Gd. in the whole year, they cannot be the 
 costermongers ? Oh ! they could do mere than that if they liked. 
 
 1492. Do not they take it out to pay their rent ? There's a good many of 
 them do that. 
 
 1493. You have mentioned those two special cases. Were those two special 
 cases of the class you ordinarily have to do with ? No ; of a better class. 
 
 1494. As regards your own people, did many of them come to the Mansion 
 House Fund ? No ; very few of them. 
 
 1495. How was it when the distress was so bad that the ordinary people 
 did not come ? No ; Mr. Praed was very kind, who gave me money to help the 
 people that I knew, and also Miss Praed. 
 
 1496. Then the Mansion House Fund was a supply outside the charitable 
 resources of the district ? Yes. 
 
 1497. Then you said that one of these cases had lately come from 
 Newcastle 1 Yes. 
 
 1498. Have you had many coming up to London ? No ; this man married one 
 of our girls in the district, and trade was so bad that he took her down to- 
 Newcastle, but there he found he did no better, and so he brought her back to 
 Iiondon. 
 
 1499. You have not heard people say they prefer London ? No, they prefer 
 the country if they can get work. 
 
 1500. Then the other case. You said this salesman had been out of employ- 
 ment for four months, and, in consequence of the badness of his clothes, he did 
 not get work. What was the ordinary work which he would have done ? He met 
 with an accident and had been helped before. We had to give him the amount 
 of 7s. a week. He hurt his knee-cap and was attended at the Surrey Dispensary 
 for months. He had to give up a good situation because he could not kneel to 
 fit on ladies' boots. He got this other situation, but, owing to the slackness of 
 trade, they had to discharge him. 
 
 1501. Is he a saving man ? Yes ; they are very careful people. 
 
 1502. You hoped the fund would be reserved to next year ; if people knew 
 that, would not people who would be trying to get away stay on that account ? 
 You must think, then, that they are impostors ? 
 
 1503. It takes a great deal to move people from their native place, and the 
 existence of a fund would perhaps tend to induce them no$ to make an effort 
 to go ? I think so. 
 
 1504. With regard to those people who you said were relieved with meat and 
 grocery and coal tickets because they could not be trusted with money, were 
 
 H
 
 86 
 
 they cases that would never be treated by the guardians ? They don't like the 
 July 16 1880. house, and they won't go in. They don't care for breaking up their home. 
 
 1505. They were able-bodied men ? Yes, there were just a few elderly men, 
 but they could work. 
 
 1506. You said something about your belief that tickets must be given. 
 Have you heard of cases where, when they had a ticket and took it to the shop, 
 they had the ticket taken off their bill instead of getting goods ? No. 
 
 1507. And you never met the statement that when no money was brought 
 to the shop they got the worst goods ? No, I know that Mr. Emery in the Old 
 Kent Road gave them of the best. 
 
 1508. Have you heard a complaint made that among the small shopkeepers, 
 those who brought relief cards were imposed upon I Yes, I have heard of one 
 case where, at a chandler's shop, they sold tenpenny butter for Is. 4d. a pound. 
 
 1509. Have you heard of tickets being sold ? No. 
 
 1510. (Mr. Crowder) : As regards inquiry into character, how do you do 
 that ? I am so well known in the district, I can go into almost any house ; but 
 you have to win their confidence, and then you can talk to them. 
 
 1511. We will take a special case not known to you. What course would 
 you pursue 1 You would judge from the house, and the cleanliness, and so 
 forth ? Yes. 
 
 1512. But, further than that, as to inquiry from the last employer, were you 
 able ? No, I never went to the employer ; I went about in the neighbour- 
 hood ; and I knew the caretakers in the buildings, and they could generally 
 give me information. 
 
 1513. Would it be possible, under your system, for a man to be relieved 
 while at the time he might be at work ? That would be possible, I suppose ? 
 Yes, and I have found it so in several cases. But still you have to work very 
 cautiously indeed to find that out. I have visited as late as 10 o'clock at night in 
 order to find it out. 
 
 1514. Well, then, in regard to the guardians ; this gentleman asked some 
 question with regard to guardians dealing with some of the cases in which you 
 were not quite satisfied, and the guardians only offered the workhouse ? Some 
 of them ; they said, 'You can come in.' 
 
 1515. But in St. Saviour's there is a labour yard? Yes, they have one 
 generally. 
 
 1516. That would be outdoor relief 1 Yes, and some of them won't do it. 
 We came across several men that grumbled at it. 
 
 1517. This gentleman appears to have made a remark worth considering. 
 He says, ' Why not let the guardians deal with these rather undeserving 
 people 1 If they are offered work in the labour yard, and receive relief on 
 account of that work, it will not break up their homes' I Yes, but they won't 
 accept it. One man said he would rather starve ; and I said, ' Well, you will 
 have to starve.' 
 
 1518. Was that case relieved ? No, sir ; we would not relieve him. 
 
 1519. And he did not lie down and starve ? No, he is alive now. 
 
 1520. When that sort of talk goes on, you are not quite so frightened as with 
 a quiet person ? No, we know how to deal with them better. 
 
 1521. Do you know what sum you received from the Mansion House ? No, 
 sir, I don't. It was through Mr. Lawrence. 
 
 1522. Do you think that a less sum than you received from the Mansion 
 House would have been sxifficient ? No, I don't think so. 
 
 1523. Have you any almoner for the relief of distress in your neighbour- 
 hood ? Miss Grogan acts for that now. I used to act for Mr. Praed and his 
 sister. Miss Grogan took it up, and I help her. 
 
 1524. Was the relief given through Miss Grogan ? Yes, for the St. Mary's 
 district. 
 
 1525. Not for you? No, not for No. 1 Ward. It was Miss Grogan that 
 helped this man with his clothing, and the man Short. 
 
 1526. (Mr. Hedley) : Who is Mr. Praed? The banker. 
 
 1527. Your Committee have not thought of any special way of dealing with 
 distress next winter ? I have not heard of anything. I could not answer that
 
 87 
 
 question. 1 know Mr. Garner was very good, and Mr. Lafone. He knew Mrs. AVIS. 
 the people, and he knew them so well. ... - 
 
 1528. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : Did you act on the Committee yourself ? No, I 
 used to visit, knowing the district. 
 
 1529. For how many weeks did you give them assistance three or four 
 weeks ? Oh, more than that ; I think some as long as six and seven weeks. 
 
 1530. And what sums were given them per week ? We used to give 7s. in 
 coal, and sometimes 4s. or 5s. in money. 
 
 1531. Did you ever pay back rent ? No ; but we paid up clubs to enable 
 them to get their out-of-work money. 
 
 1532. (Hon. & Rev. A . C. Stanley) : You spoke of the improvement of your 
 district, and I rather gathered from what you said that the improvement was a 
 moral one that they behaved themselves better ? So they do, sir. 
 
 1533. But at the same time that there was this improvement, work has been 
 getting worse ? Yes ; for the last six years. 
 
 1534. So that people are better off through better management ? Yes ; 
 better off in spite of want. I have known people who have not had a chair to 
 sit upon 
 
 1535. Do they drink less ? They are teetotallers ; that is the secret. 
 
 1536. Do you think that temperance has made considerable progress in 
 your district ? Yes. 
 
 1537. (Dr. Longstaff) : When you have been among them, have you heard 
 them give any reason for trade being bad ? No 
 
 1538. They say it is bad and cannot account for it. 
 
 1539. Do you know what sort of brushes the brush-drawers make ? All kinds. 
 
 1540. Do they make such things as blacking brushes and scrubbing 
 brushes 1 Yes ; there used to be a deal of contract work, but that is not so now. 
 
 1541. These men did not tell you why the contract work was bad ? No, I 
 have never asked. 
 
 1542. Have you heard of a large factory that has been started at Hackney, 
 where they make the brushes from beginning to end by the introduction of an 
 American patent ? I happen to know that they are doing a very good trade. No, 
 1 have not heard that. I know there are some places where the bristles are 
 punched in instead of being drawn through. 
 
 1543. I know that these people had orders six months ahead and could not 
 execute them. 
 
 1544 (Mr. Crowder) : I think what Mrs. Avis has said explains that. They 
 draw them with the wire, the common sorts, and the fancy hands have a small 
 wire to work with. You cannot talk to me about brush-making but what I can 
 answer. I worked for Miss Nash for 24 years. 
 
 1545. (Rev. A . C. Stanley) You have said that the Mansion House Fund did 
 good in many instances. Have you heard of cases in which it did harm ? 
 Yes ; people neglected their work to go to get it. There were only three 
 that I could mention. 
 
 1546. In the majority of cases it was good 1 I never heard of more than 
 those three cases, and I think they thought that they would get more. 
 
 1547. Did you in any case have money entrusted to you where you thought 
 it ought not to be given ? I never had money from anyone but Mr. Praed. 
 
 1548. And you always gave it ? Yes ; if we found they were genuine cases we 
 could give it. I have had as much as 30s. to give to people, and have not given 
 it because I knew it would be spent in the public-house. 
 
 1549. You say that people managed their money better than they used to do. 
 Did you find the worst management with people of the best class ? No, those 
 who were worst off. 
 
 1550. Such men as this salesman ? No ; they always had a very comfort- 
 able home. 
 
 1551. Generally speaking, in cases of distress, would you expect to hear that 
 the man earned 1 a week, or 30s. ? We found more with the 30s. than with 
 the 1. 
 
 1552. Many of these people go hop-picking ; I suppose they earn a good 
 deal of money while they are at the work ? 1 don't think they earn a great 
 deal. Some save it and some spend it. 
 
 H2
 
 Mrs. Avis. 1553. Do any of them have a jollification when they get home ? That is 
 
 July 16, 1&86. generally the case. Some save it and some spend it. It is no matter where 
 you go, you will always find that kind of people. 
 
 1554. (Mr. Peters) : There is one point upon which I wish to be quite clear. 
 Do you think that people had less money to spend last winter ? Yes. 
 
 1555. And that process has been going on for the last six years } Yes. 
 
 1 556 . And you think that a good remedy for that is to distribute money 
 amongst them ? Yes ; but you must use your own judgment in giving it. Tt 
 requires a great deal of forethought in giving. I have been deceived myself. 
 I thought I was as sharp as a good many of them, but I am free to confess I 
 have been deceived. 
 
 1557. (Mr. Loch) : Mr. Peters has just asked you about giving. It appears 
 that the real cause of the distress is lack of work, and that want of work is 
 due to the fact that other men are supplying the market with brushes ; and 
 therefore is it not true that we may keep a certain amount of distress away for 
 one winter, but we cannot go on doing that ? No. 
 
 1558. Do you think that any of these people would emigrate ? No, sir ; 
 they don't like to leave ; they would rather stop here and starve. 
 
 1559. So that it comes to this, that they are forcing the hands of the public, 
 and saying, ' You must relieve us here, because we won't go ; and we won't go 
 into the workhouse ' 1 No. 
 
 1560. And they put us into the difficulty owing to their lack of energy. 
 Could you make any suggestion, as they are in this difficulty, by which we could 
 make them understand their position and help them out of it ? No ; it has 
 been a very hard lesson to me. I cannot make them understand. 
 
 1561. There are only one or two trying to put it to them in this way 1 
 No, sir. 
 
 1562. You mentioned that Mr. Praed was giving you money. I think there 
 were other distributions of charity at the same time at the Priory. I think ? 
 Oh, yes ; Father Nugee's ; that would be in the New Kent Road. 
 
 1563. Were there other distributions going on like that ? Only that. Mr. 
 Olney used to give bread away twice a week, but that was principally to his 
 ' mothers ' who attended his mothers' meetings. 
 
 1564. There were other people who were giving in other directions? 
 Yes. 
 
 1565. Could you trust to the local people to give what help was required ? 
 I don't know anyone that came from without; we had no very bad cases of 
 starvation in our district ; they were all visited. 
 
 15G6. It almost seems that your evidence points to the fact that, if there 
 had been distress, there would have been enough money without the fund ? 
 No ; it was a great stress upon them as it was ; but through the people 
 interested 
 
 1567. A great number of the cases that you relieved were of a very excep- 
 tional kind ? Yes, there were exceptional cases. I know several that never 
 had relief before. 
 
 1568. In making these inquiries did the brunt of making the inquiry fall 
 upon yourself, and one or two others I No, there were several. Mr. Garner 
 was very energetic in visiting. 
 
 1569. And those were people who could be relied upon under any circum- 
 stances ? Yes ; they were gentlemen we knew, and who were connected with 
 the men out of employment. It was not like having a stranger coming into the 
 district to work. 
 
 1570. If a certain sum had been placed privately at the disposal of such 
 gentlemen as that, I suppose the distribution would have been worked better ? 
 I don't know that. It would have been worked more privately. It would 
 have prevented a great deal of trouble and some imposture ; but still you might 
 have overlooked some. It is a most difficult thing; unless you are living 
 amongst the people you are very apt to be deceived by them. 
 
 1571. Do you think that the mere publicity of the fund brought out 
 deserving cases that you could not have reached in any other way ? No, I don't 
 think so.
 
 89 
 
 1572. How was it ascertained that people were not in receipt of Poor Law JIrs - AVIS, 
 relief I We made inquiry of the relieving officer. He sat on the Committee for July 1G 1 " 886> 
 Newington and for Bermondsey. . 
 
 1573. So that you asked him in every case ? Yes ; the gentleman who sat 
 for Bermondsey was a very nice fellow. 
 
 1574. (Rev. A. C. Stanley) : I gather that Mrs. Avis had nothing person- 
 ally to do with the relieving officer, but that the inquiry was made by the 
 Committee I That was so ; and if they were not satisfied, I went to visit. 
 
 1575. (Chairman) : In what capacity are you working in that district ? I 
 have worked for Mr. Praed privately for seventeen years. 
 
 1570. He employs you as his visitor 1 I have got another district now 
 Red Cross Street, in the Borough. 
 
 1577. (Mr. Loch) : And you have a room ? Yes ; I have a class of girls 
 at my house twice a week. 
 
 1578. And do you do any parish work for Mr. for anyone down there ? 
 No, sir ; I work with the Rev. Mr. Snape. 
 
 1579. (Rev. B. Lambert) : Suppose this salesman had come in an ordinary 
 year what would you have done in an ordinary year ] Mr. Praed would have 
 helped him. 
 
 1580. (Mr. Loch) : That is the point. 
 
 MR. F. J. DOVE (of the Firm of DOVE BROTHERS) and MR. R. ROBERTS, 
 
 examined. 
 
 1581. (Chairman, Rev. Brooke, Lambert) : Where do you reside, Mr. Dove ? 3fr. P. J. DOVE 
 Halesworth Lodge, Hornsey Rise. ^oBEBra" 
 
 1582. And it is the building trade in which you are engaged ? My place of 
 business is in Theberton Street, Islington. 
 
 1583. I think you have been very largely employed in the building trade ? 
 Yes, we have. 
 
 1584. And you also, Mr. Roberts, 1 believe ? I am also a member of a 
 large building firm in Rheidol Terrace, Islington. 
 
 1585. The Committee are very anxious to find out a few things that would 
 help them about the exceptional distress. They want to know the extent to 
 which it prevailed last year, especially last winter, and if you could give them any 
 information with regard to the number of men that have been employed latterly, 
 and the rate of wages as compared with former years. Now, as regards the 
 first point the number of men employed have you been employing a very 
 much smaller number of men 1 (Mr. Dove) : As far as my own experience goes, 
 we are not employing a fifth part of the men we employed ten years ago. 1 
 think it is rather exceptional in our case, because a great deal of our work is of 
 an ecclesiastical kind, and that has been especially dull of late years. I may 
 tell you that we have built of ecclesiastical edifices about 400. 
 
 158G. In the course of how many years ? In the course of thirty years. 
 
 1587. Would your experience be the same, Mr. Roberts 1 (Mr. Roberts) : 
 Yes, it is diminished ; but I am a little doubtful whether, in our case, our trade 
 has diminished heavily, owing to the diminution in volume of general trade, 
 or because we are unable to do the work at the price at which it is being done. 
 We are being swept out by keener competition, although the volume of trade is 
 somewhat diminished as well. 
 
 1588. Is your trade in dwelling-houses ? Mansions and dwelling-houses 
 mostly. We have been in business forty years. 
 
 1589. And you are undoubtedly employing a very much smaller number of 
 men ? I am a little doubtful how far that is so. Some part is owing to less 
 volume of trade ; some, that we are unable to meet the competition. 
 
 1590. The answers have especial reference to the metropolitan area ? I 
 should say that the amount of our wages was two-thirds less than three years 
 ago. 
 
 1591. You are employing about one-third of the number of people ? Yes. 
 (Mr. Dove) : If you would allow me to make an observation, I concur in the
 
 90 
 
 ROBKRTiS. 
 
 July 10. 1886. 
 
 Mr ' F i M ^R vieW which he takes about the undue competition. That competition has been 
 brought about in a great measure by the creation of a great many more 
 masters than there were. 
 
 1592. So that the actual amount of building going on in the metropolitan 
 area is not very much less 1 (Mr. Dove) : Not a very great deal, but still it is 
 less. 
 
 1593. There are more who want work ? Yes, I suppose so. 
 
 1594. In your own case, when you have a contract, do you employ persons 
 living in the immediate neighbourhood, or do you import men from a distance ? 
 (Mr. Dove) : We have done a great deal all over England. When we go a 
 long way afield to Yorkshire or Lancashire we, as a rule, take down a great 
 many London workmen, and they lead the way for the other workmen ; and 
 if we pick up good hands there, we bring them to London. That is how the 
 best hands are found in London at the higher wage. I have been president of 
 our Central Association. I occupied the position for three years, and I can 
 therefore judge as to how the wages go. I object to lowering wages. 
 
 1595. I was coming to that point presently. I should like to ask you a 
 question. I gathered that there is a steady influx of the best workmen into 
 London. The good ones you take away would come back again. The inferior 
 ones would not get work because better workmen had been imported from the 
 country 1 (Mr. Dove) : The last three years are the only three years for the 
 space of fifteen years when the wages have been higher in London than the 
 provinces. 
 
 1596. (Dr. Longstaff) : I did not quite understand that. (Mr. Dove) : In 
 London the wages have been kept up, and in the country they were actually 
 paying 10 $d. an hour; they have now dropped down to 8d. and 7d., while 
 London is keeping up its wages. 
 
 1597. (Chairman) : So that there is the attraction of the higher wage to 
 London. 
 
 1598. (Dr. Loriystaff) : But previously it was not the case 1 Yes. 
 
 1599. (Chairman) : Sometimes a builder from a distance gets a contract ; 
 when he gets the contract, does he employ London men or import a large 
 number from his own district ? They often bring up a large number, because 
 they bring them at the lower wage many of the bricklayers, the masons, and 
 the carpenters that they have employed come up with them, and run the risk 
 of the trades unions interfering with them ; but after they have been here seven 
 or eight months they require the same wages as the others, because of the 
 trades unions. 
 
 1600. That is one reason why you are unable to compete with those at a 
 distance ? Yes, at first blush ; but generally the provincial masters have had 
 enough of it in a few years, and retire again. 
 
 1601. But this has the tendency to increase the number of hands, though 
 the work may be decreasing 1 I should think, according to my judgment, that 
 London has been particularly favoured in that way, more than other parts of 
 England. But there is less depression in London than in other parts. 
 
 1602. But it has been on the increase in proportion to the number of men 
 that come up. Is that your view, Mr. Roberts i (Mr. Roberts) : Yes ; and we 
 find the men follow a particular foreman. A man will get attached to a foreman, 
 and the men will follow that foreman from London to the country ; and the 
 men in the country who prove themselves capable, are anxious to come up, and 
 they will follow the foreman back again, and go to London. I should be sorry 
 to see a lowering of the wages in London. I believe it would enormously affect 
 builders such as Mr. Dove and ourselves ; it would throw the work into the 
 hands of reckless competitors. My feeling is that, the higher the rate of wages, 
 the better for the good firms ; that really the lowering of the wages would only 
 make the competition still keener. 
 
 1603. I think you said 9d. per hour, Mr. Dove? For about nine hours a day; 
 and extra working would be paid for at a higher rate. That depends upon the 
 character of the firm. It is 9d. an hour for nine hours or a little more, but if 
 they work on for three or four hours they expect more. 
 
 1604. We were comparing the number of men employed now with the
 
 91 
 
 number ten years ago. What was your rate of wages then ? 8$d. 1 am not Mr. F. .T. DOVK 
 quite sure whether it was 8$d. or 8d., but still it has crept up in the last thirty "EGBERTS!' 
 years. It has crept up from 6rf. per hour to Qd. in the thirty years, sometimes by . 
 a leap of a penny, and sometimes of a halfpenny. Jul - v 1G > l885 J 
 
 1605. (Mr. Peters) : Never going back '/ No, never going back. 
 
 1606. (Chairman) : And the rate of wages is lower in the country ? Yes. 
 If it would afford you information, I shall be pleased to send you a tabular 
 statement of the wages all over England. 
 
 1607. It would be very useful. Mr. Roberts's opinion and yours is that by 
 keeping up the rate of wages, you ensure a better class of work .' Yes ; the 
 London builders who want to be paramount for work. 
 
 1608. Do you consider that during the last winter there was a larger number of 
 men engaged in building out of employ than usual ? Yes ; that is my experience. 
 About ten years ago we were paying 1,500 a week for wages ; this last winter 
 we only paid 300. 
 
 1609. I think you were connected with the distribution of the Mansion 
 House Relief Fund? (Mr. Roberts) : Yes, in Islington. 
 
 1610. You got some experience of the labouring classes ? Yes, my ex- 
 perience was that the tendency of the fund was to drift to the relief of the 
 permanent poor. Do what we would to avoid it, we could not help it drifting. 
 And I think it was to some extent owing to the fact that the Committees were 
 composed to a large extent of clergymen and district visitors ; and the charity 
 went to their own particular set ; it went to the same set as are relieved by the 
 chapels and churches. I believe that many of the clergy honestly tried their 
 best to avoid that, but as the matter was in their hands these people came. As 
 a rule the mechanic does not go to church or chapel. 
 
 1611. Do you think it a good thing that the Mansion House Fund was pub- 
 licly known, or would it have been better to have had some private fund I I 
 think it was necessary to advertise it ; and my own view was that the organi- 
 sation should not have been allowed to drop : that in each district a small office 
 should be opened, controlled for the most part by laymen sitting every evening. 
 
 1612. Had you many guardians ? We had one or two guardians on the 
 Committee. The relieving officer refused to relieve some cases, and sent them 
 on to the Mansion House Fund, and in some cases they passed their old cases on. 
 
 1613. Did you co-operate with the Charity Organisation Society ? No. 
 
 1614. With the Society for the Relief of Distress 1 No. 
 
 1615. Were they represented on the Committee ? No ; I think Miss Sharpe 
 used to attend, but I think there was rather a feeling that the Charity Organi- 
 sation Society was not a very successful distributor of charity. We had a good 
 many enthusiastic charity givers on the Committee, and any cold water was 
 objected to. 
 
 1616. Had you a very large number of applicants ? Yes ; they increased 
 with the way the relief came to be known. The last applicants were very 
 much less worthy of support than the first. 
 
 1617. The more you advertised, the worse class you got ? Yes. 
 
 1618. Can you give me the total number of applicants ? No. 
 
 1619. Could you give me the proportion of those relieved to those who 
 applied ? Yes ; I think almost every one who applied was relieved. 
 
 1620 . Was any investigation made ? Yes, by means of the district visitors and 
 others. All were in distress, and that was considered sufficient ground, whether 
 they came within the Mansion House lines or not. If anyone made a remark, 
 the answer was, 'the man was in trouble.' 
 
 1621. Did you send any cases to the Poor Law? No; I believe at my 
 particular Committee we did not. 
 
 1622. But they sent cases to you ? Yes. 
 
 1623. (Rev. JB. Lambert) : You had the Greenwich Seamen's Hospital, did 
 you not, Mr. Dove ? Yes. 
 
 1624. Did you learn the state of trade down there ? No. 
 
 1625. There has been great complaint of want of trade down there. I sup- 
 pose I am right in saying that the building trade has been less affected by 
 machinery than other trades ? No ; I should say that the industries connected
 
 92 
 
 Jr. Y. J. DOVE 
 aud Mr. K. 
 BOBERTS. 
 
 jjuly 16, 1886. 
 
 with our trade are not greatly affected by machinery and by the importation of 
 doors, and so on. 
 
 1G2G. Is that the case with you, Mr. Roberts ? Yes ; but we do high-class- 
 work ; an architect's plan has to be followed. We cannot get a dozen doors 
 made to the same pattern. Even if trade is at all slack, each man expects to 
 work the full nine hours a day ; there could not be a distribution of labour. 
 
 (Mr. Dove) : With regard to the machinery that we use, we put that on 
 half-time ; all the machine hands and the engine drivers we put on half-time. 
 
 1627. Then in one branch of your trade you can distribute labour ? Yes ; 
 but that is infinitesimal. 
 
 1628. I wanted to ask one or two questions about the fund. There were 
 certain Mansion House Rules, but they did not even keep to those rules ? 
 
 (Mr. Roberts) : No. 
 
 (Mr. Doie) : In North London we were rather more separate, and there was 
 an enormous body of distressed people there. I was asked to go on the Com- 
 mittee, because I happened to be an employer of labour, and I thought it was 
 my duty to do so to prevent imposture. I was made chairman of it after a short 
 time, and we had a Sub-Committee, who investigated cases after the cases 
 had been already investigated by the separate members of the Committee. 
 Probably the people in Mr. Roberts's district did not do that. I or others 
 looked over every case after it had been dealt with by the clergy, district 
 visitors, and the members of the Committee referred to, and we rejected a great 
 many of them. But at the same time there were a great many persons there 
 painters particularly, vhose normal condition in the winter is always to get 
 relief. These for the great part were rejected, but a great many came with such 
 tales of woe and said that they were starving ; and finding that they had not 
 received outdoor relief, we assisted them. 
 
 1629. I understand you to say, and I pgree with you, that there is a general 
 distrust on the part of the better men they would not go to a Society that was 
 managed by the clergy ? 
 
 (Mr. Roberts) : I think it is so. I don't think it prevails now so largely as it 
 did a few years ago. If a working man goes to the clergyman, he thinks he is 
 bound to return the compliment by going to church or chapel, and he does not 
 do it. 
 
 1630. I think you found later that it is part of a very common animosity in 
 their class ? I think the old animosity against the clergy is gone. 
 
 1631. Is there, within your knowledge, the. same feeling of not going to the 
 Charity Organisation Society 'I I think the feeling against the Charity Organi- 
 sation Society is much stronger. 
 
 1632. Among the class ot men who respect themselves ? Yes ; because they 
 treat the working man very hardly. 
 
 1633. If we had a few more working-men committees of the Charity 
 Organisation Society, they would soon come round to us. 
 
 1634. (Mr. Croicder) : Mr. Dove, with regard to the number who fell out of 
 work last winter comparing last winter with winters of equal severity and' 
 duration should you say that there was such a lack of employment as to make 
 you feel that some special fund was necessary settit g aside the severity of the 
 weather ? That is a very difficult question to answer. For my own part, I 
 thought the relief fund was a great mistake, because I am very much inclined, 
 although I know it is contrary to political economy, to find work for the people. 
 I am sure it is better to do that. At Holloway we pointed out to the parish 
 authorities certain works that might be carried out read-making and such 
 things. It is better if that can be done, because we have always found, as to the 
 artisan, that if he happens to be out of work for three months, he is never 
 the same man again. He becomes demoralised. Even supposing we administered 
 a fund like this as well as possible, the man will never be the same man as he 
 was before. If you can find employment not degrading, but with wages 
 reasonable if he has had 6s. 9d. and it gave 4s. Qd. , it would do some good. 
 
 1635. In regard to these works undertaken by the vestries under the Metro- 
 politan Board of Works, was it done by contract in the usual way 1 Yes ; 
 road-making in the north part of London. There was a good deal of road-
 
 93 
 
 making to do, and there are rules as to the assessing the payment upon those Mr. F. J. DOVE 
 who have to bear the expense, and it is a rule to get two-thirds of the money "poBKrr?" 
 before commencing the work. The vestry passed that by and ran the risk of 
 getting the money after the roads were made. Jul 7 16 > 18(j6 - 
 
 1636. (Chairman} : The rate of wages paid by the District Board was the 
 same rate as usual I Yes. 
 
 1637. (Mr. Crowder) :' These works 'were tendered for? Yes. I must 
 observe that, after we had made these efforts to get this special employment, 
 many of the fellows exhibited themselves in their true colours, and threw it up. 
 
 1038. I think you said your experience was that a great many loafers 
 apply ? Oh, yes. 
 
 1639. In fact, the people who are accustomed to receive charity 1 Yes, and 
 the men who are continually relieved by clergymen. 
 
 1640. And your belief is that fair wages paid by a vestry or committee 
 Avould be a fair test that it would act as a test ? Yes, that is exactly my 
 feeling with regard to next winter. I look to it to be more severe. I think 
 in all probability the work will be in a less flourishing state in the coming year 
 than it is now. 
 
 1641. I should like to ask Mr. Roberts what he considers with regard to the 
 distress, whether he thinks a public fund necessary, or whether he thinks these 
 cases might have been dealt with by existing societies ? 1 think they would have 
 been better dealt with by the existing societies. Perhaps I am looking back 
 to the Mansion House Fund, and thinking it did mischief. I agree somewhat 
 with regard to public works, and the demoralising effect of want of work upon 
 a man. A painter's is a season-trade they are out in winter and employed in 
 summer, when all men not shifty or not distrusted are in constant employment. 
 The number of painters out of work relieved in our district was very large, 
 and the excuse for coming was that the trade was so bad in the last summer 
 that they did not have so much work as usual. 
 
 1642. Some save in the shape of furniture ? Yes ; and some take other 
 work in winter. 
 
 1643. Has anything in the shape of a labour test connected with any work 
 that required doing suggested itself to you ? (Mr. Roberts) : The labour test is 
 the best test. If you put a labour test at a lower rate of wages, they won't 
 accept it, for fear of bringing down the rate of wages permanently. I think 
 that is their objection to taking it rather than that it is a small amount for 
 them at the time. I should say public works should not be less than at the 
 standard rate of wages. They should not take advantage of the distress. 
 (Mr. Dove) : I don't quite agree with that. After awhile, everything would 
 become public works, and you would get a certain amount of healthy enterprise 
 done away with that exists at the present time. There wou'd be 110 inducement 
 to seek a higher rate of wages. 
 
 1644. (Chairman) : Then the work was paid for in the usual way, only it 
 was not so much as they could earn in the building trade ? It was put into the 
 market at an earlier date than it would otherwise have been. 
 
 1645. (Mr. Crowder): Supposing that there should be exceptional distress next 
 winter, can you suggest any plan that would be better than the Mansion House 
 Fund I which, I think we all agree, was a failure ; that it did a great deal of 
 harm if it did some good. We cannot possibly expect that all those who have 
 this world's goods may withhold their hands. Can you suggest how it could 
 be better distributed ? (Mr. Dove) : The difficulty in that matter is to get 
 one of what we call our real good artisans to degrade himself to come and receive 
 charity. I really don't believe that up in our neighbourhood, in the number 
 that came for relief, there was one thoroughly sterling, honest, straightforward 
 man in the whole lot, judging from examination. Perhaps I am overstating the 
 case, but I could not put my finger upon one. 
 
 1646. Could you suggest anything that we could propose to the public less 
 objectionable than the Mansion House Fund ? We should have some people 
 coming forward and ready to give. Nothing occurs to my mind, excepting what 
 I have just stated, that something should be thought of in time, by which work- 
 men can go and find employment something that will add to the comfort, or
 
 94 
 
 Mr. F. J. DOVE happiness, or health of the people without its being remunerative a public 
 
 ^"OTEUT;?' improvement of some kind such, for instance, as a scheme for making new 
 
 roads through certain parts. In our own parts there is a scheme for carrying 
 
 July 16, 1886. a road from Hornsey Rise to Hornsey proper, which would be a boon to the 
 neighbourhood. There is an enormous traffic there ; and I think it behoves all 
 parishes, as far as they can, to be alive to these facts, and so that they can put 
 their hand to start something of the kind infirmaries, wards for epidemics, 
 &c. To a certain extent everybody can turn his hand to digging. I should not 
 mind it if I were in distress. 
 
 1647. Suppose you had to deal with tailors, shoemakers, silversmiths, and 
 people of that description? I should give them that kind of employment. 
 Those very men that you speak of the best of them look upon it as a treat to 
 do their allotment gardens, and why they could not employ themselves at a 
 little heavier strain I don't know ; and if you induced a dozen or two to take it, 
 others would follow. 
 
 1648. I doubt if you could get the Londoner to dig 1 Perhaps some could not 
 do it. 
 
 1649. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : I understand they are works to be paid for by 
 local funds. You wish each local district to take upon themselves the execution 
 of works to be paid for for a local purpose 1 Let every parish obtain a loan 
 for carrying it out ; they can get it from the Consolidated Fund. 
 
 1650. Do you think it right to raise a loan, chargeable for a long series of 
 years, to relieve immediate distress 1 Yes, I think so. That is taxing posterity 
 to some extent. 
 
 1651. (Mr. Hedley) : There must be a time when this road-making must 
 cease ? I don't know . The question of where the money is coming from is 
 another thing. I have felt in this matter that unless rich and poor pull 
 together, we shall get into an awful mess. I am sorry to say that the workmen 
 are men who won't go to the churches or chapels ; but they are better educated 
 than they were, and are better able to combine. 
 
 1652. (Mr. Crowder) : By education you mean reading and writing ? Yes. 
 
 1653. (Mr. Hedley) : Mr. Roberts, so you share Mr. Dove's opinion, that 
 more men are likely to be out of work next winter ? Yes, I think so . I think 
 from the recent elections there has been a great migration of workmen from 
 London ; having found trade so bad they have gone away, and I hope they 
 have left for good, many of them. I hope they have found trade where they 
 have gone to. My notion is, as to public works, I should rather have preferred 
 if offices for relief were opened in all the districts a multiplicity of them, and 
 two or three gentlemen, employers of labour, and one or two working men, and 
 that the representatives of churches and chapels should come once a month and 
 compare their cases, &c. 
 
 1654. (Mr. Hedley).: That is just what the Charity Organisation Society 
 are trying to do? You want them in much smaller districts. The organisation 
 is often at some distance from the working classes ; you want them in the 
 centre of poor neighbourhoods, and local people to serve on the Committee . 
 
 1655. When you found a case of distress, what would you do to relieve it in 
 the shape of work ? If possible in the shape of work, and I should prefer 
 money to giving in kind. I think the giving in kind is a very mischievous 
 system in itself, and frequently I have found that a system of terrorism was 
 exercised . 
 
 1656. Do they give a large quantity of outdoor relief in Islington ? Yes ; 
 I think rather more freely in Islington than in some places. I have not heard 
 any complaint. 
 
 1657. Is there a labour yard in Islington ? Yes, I think there is breaking 
 stones. 
 
 1658. Was it largely used last winter ? 
 (Mr. Dove) : That is a degrading thing. 
 
 1659. (Mr. J. H. Allen) : Why is stone-breaking degrading ? Because it 
 is a sort of thing you put the lowest of the low to do. It is like picking oakum. 
 It is in a degree useful, but it is infinitesimal in its use. 
 
 1660. What harm is there in it ? I am not speaking about the loafers.
 
 95 
 
 Do what you like with those. Make it as abhorrent as possible to those. I am Mr. F. J. DOVK 
 speaking of men like carpenters and joiners. a n(1 Mr.K. 
 
 1661. But then I am a guardian in St. Pancras, and we have none of that 
 
 class of men in the labour yard no carpenter. It is solely painters and July IG, 1836. 
 loafers. Just so ; a man worthy the name of a mechanic won't ask charity ; 
 he will rather die first. 
 
 (Mr. Roberts) : I think you ought to bear in mind with regard to these 
 matters I think that the good artisan is not in actual want. If a man is a 
 really good fellow he can make some scheme to get a living, and it is the loafer 
 and inferior workman who resorts to charity. If a man is a capable man he 
 looks about him. 
 
 1662. That is a very important point. You don't think that at the present 
 time there are any mechanics who want charity ? Not the best of mechanics. 
 Those in want are often mentally and physically incapable of being good 
 mechanics. 
 
 1663. The trades unions they would help a good mechanic 1 They have 
 not that system. The Amalgamated Society of Engineers have such a system, 
 provided they took care that the men are good workmen in the Society. If 
 the societies would weed out the bad workmen, the trades unions would be a 
 good thing to the trade, but I fancy some of them won't allow them to support 
 men out of employ. 
 
 1664. The Plasterers' Society does that, I think ? (Mr. Dove): The strongest 
 one of all is the Masons', which does not support anyone out of employ, 
 except on strike. 
 
 (Mr. Roberts) : The Society of Engineers does support men out of employ. 
 
 1665. (Dr. Longstqff) : You two gentlemen are more concerned in the better 
 class of building work. Though you both do the better sort of work, you must 
 have a good deal of knowledge of the inferior branches of the trade. Are the 
 inferior branches of the building trade as much depressed as your own branch, 
 or more, or less ? (Mr. Roberts) : I should say more so. You notice in the 
 suburbs those houses that are built by a sort who represent the great volume 
 of London trade speculative builders. That is a class of work in which there 
 is neither architect nor builder ; but, judging from the number of empty houses, 
 I should say that that trade has suffered more than ours. 
 
 1666. As you do high class work, I suppose the majority of the men 
 employed would be the best class of men. (Mr. Roberts) : Yes. (Mr. Dove) : 
 We don't take any except at the best wages. The speculative men may 
 get them from 6W. an hour, except they take task work and earn Wd. an 
 hour. If they take an undue amount of work for themselves, they will have to 
 suffer for it afterwards. 
 
 1667. These speculative builders employ a great many men as artisans who 
 are little better than labourers, who don't know their trade ? (Mr. Dove) : Yes, 
 that is especially the case with bricklayers. (Mr. Roberts) : I agree. 
 (Mr. Dove) : A carpenter, to a certain extent, must have a knowledge of his 
 trade. He has more tools to use. 
 
 1668. But still there are a great many men who are little better than improv- 
 ers ? (Mr. Roberts) : Yes ; a man and his family will take a job. There was a 
 case of painting the outside of a house ; we were asked to give a price for it. 
 A man took it perhaps at half our price. I saw the work going on. All three, 
 a father and two sons under fifteen, were painting this house. We cannot 
 compete against such men. That is done to a great extent by speculative 
 builders. A man begins building a little house, and he has his son and his 
 brother-in-law to help him, and they run it up together : they build simply 
 with a notion of making money. 
 
 1669. Yes, there is a system of small contracts, I believe. Is that system 
 getting more common 1 -Yes ; they let it for the lump sum, so much a house ; 
 and in fact I have heard of people building ' graves ' in walls, leaving hollow 
 spaces where there is no brick at all, so that there was a risk of its coming to 
 pieces. 
 
 1670. Mr. Dove stated what is more or less generally well known to nien in 
 the building trade, that their wages have increased 50 per cent, in thirty years.
 
 96 
 
 Mr. F. J. DOVE 
 ami .Mr. K. 
 BOBBRTS. 
 
 July 16, 1886. 
 
 Are these men steadier than they were, do you think ? Well, I must confess. 
 that as far as my judgment goes, the artisan is now far more respectable than 
 formerly. Every man in our shop is rather a gentleman to what he was thirty 
 years ago. It was the rule to find these men keeping Saint Monday, and Saint 
 Tuesday too. Such a thing never occurs now, and they go out with their black 
 clothes. They have given up their fustian and corduroy. The better class of 
 men never think of wearing fustian. 
 
 1671. Is that your experience, Mr. Roberts ? Yes ; I never hear a foreman 
 now swearing at and bullying the men. You can notice the improvement in their 
 dress too. There are no paper caps now. They are more courteous to their 
 employers, and the employers are on better terms with the men. We have men 
 who have been with us since before I was born. 
 
 1672. You both of you admit that your own business has shrunk considerably 
 of recent years. You would naturally reject the inferior men, and would so 
 have naturally a more select class and high wages. Do you think this general I 
 To a certain extent it is so. Those we weeded out were those we had least 
 respect for, but still there were many that we should have liked to retain ; but 
 even as to the character of the men, the trade itself has tended to elevate the 
 men. None of the carpenters have to work in the slavish sort of manner that 
 they used to do. All the planing and preparing the work for the bench witn 
 trying planes, and jack planes, and smoothing planes that is all done by 
 machinery. It is rather now a scientific adjustment of material. 
 
 1673. You have anticipated another question. Though machinery has not 
 affected the building trade as much as other trades, it must influence the number 
 of carpenters ; you would not now have to employ so many joiners '? The 
 introduction of machinery has rather alleviated the heavy work. After all, the 
 work is only prepared for them ; the men proceed witn their work in a more 
 leisurely manner, and consequently the saving by machinery is not much. 
 
 1674. And you think that is compensated for by the faster work of the 
 machine. You all make use of the sashes and doors coming from abroad ? No. 
 Speculators do. 
 
 1675. How long has that been the case ? (Mr. Roberts) : I should say not 
 more than ten years. (Mr. Dove) : I think it commenced about twenty years 
 ago, and has gone on increasing, biit the singular part of that is as to the 
 commonest doors : we get the doors over here nearly for the same money that 
 we can get the wood. They use inferior wood, and if we import the timber, 
 by the time it is sawed, it comes to as much as the door itself. 
 
 1676. Then if the door is bad, it is not really cheaper ? Yes ; they don't 
 put any glue in the joints. 
 
 1677. But although this has been done more or less for twenty years, it has 
 been done very much more recently ? Yes. 
 
 1678. That must have thrown a great many joiners out of employ in the 
 trade ? (Mr. Roberts) : Yes. 
 
 1679. Your committee, Mr. Roberts, seem to have been possessed with a 
 passion to give ? Well, perhaps it was, looking at it a little hardly. Ours is 
 not like the Dock and Stepney District, so that we have not such a very large 
 area to spend our money over ; and when the distress was here, the Mansion 
 House Fund lines were not much considered. 
 
 1680. Was the district visitor likely to be imposed upon, do you think ? 1 
 don't know that ; but the people who get at the district visitor are the per- 
 manent poor ; they cannot go out of the set. 
 
 (Mr. Dove) : 1 found that in my neighbourhood we have got a very excellent 
 Scripture reader there ; but I could see as clearly as possible that his sympathy 
 ran with the cases who came to him at the mission room on a Sunday to hear 
 him preach. He could not help it. 1 dare say I should have done the same. 
 
 1681. (Mr. Peters) : I think you said the chief cause of slackness was the 
 excessive competition, that would cause the work to shift from you to others,, 
 and not due to depression ? That is quite right. 
 
 1682. And do you think that those people who took the work would employ 
 the same class of workmen as you ? Yes ; but the work would suffer in the 
 nature of the material, not the labour. I don't think they have opportunity of
 
 97 
 
 reducing wages much. They take the work contrary to all the contracts it is Mr. F. j. DOVK 
 
 let to the lowest contractor and employ a lower class of men. ani1 Mr - & 
 
 1683. What is the cause of this increasing competition among those em- BOBEBTS. 
 ployers who compete with each other ? I have not given consideration to that. July 16, 1886, 
 These things grow upon us so gradually ; you hardly know of it till it is right 
 
 upon you. 
 
 1684. It has never occurred to you it is on account of the capital going on 
 accumulating in few hands beyond its necessary point ? It seems to me 
 that several of our men come to grief by being taken by the hand and set up on 
 their own account ; they go on for a certain time, and sometimes do not. 
 Many of our very best men are shocking bad financiers, and know nothing 
 about it. 
 
 (Mr. Roberts) : I can confirm that by a case in our own employ. A work- 
 man set up as a speculative builder. He got money advanced to him. He lives 
 well, keeps three or four servants, keeps a carriage, and in a few years he 
 makes an offer to his creditors : no difference in his expenditure. We have 
 men who worked along with him, and they compare their position with his, 
 while he is well dressed and living stylishly, and ask why they are still there, 
 having their two or three pounds a week. I think it is the abundance of 
 capital in the country which demoralises these men. There is a bitter feeling in 
 the minds of the men who have worked alongside them. They are not con- 
 nected with social influences, and if they have to compound, they go on again. 
 
 1685. (Mr. Loch) : I should just like to ask Mr. Roberts if we could have 
 any good system of obtaining information of the actual state of want of work 
 from employers and others who could know the actual facts at any precise 
 moment ? There maybe a sensation, and then there is a rush ; if we could know 
 beforehand and speak with certainty as to the actual facts, one might get the 
 thing done deliberately and well 1 The only way would be to send circulars to 
 employers. If circulars were sent through the Builders' Society and other 
 societies, they could give you facilities, and they would be able to tell you if 
 the trade was diminished. 
 
 1686. That might be undertaken, with a probability of meeting with 
 support ? It can hardly be done by a society like this. 
 
 1687. I was looking to the difficulty, if possible, of next winter. I suppose 
 you would say, with regard to the labour test you would put men to, you 
 would accept a division of classes, and you would not flinch from letting the 
 loafing class go to the labour yard, and the better class to the scheme you pro- 
 pose ? (Mr. Dove) : Some such scheme I should propose. 
 
 1688. I suppose you would say we have come to this plight, that competition 
 creates a special class of workmen, and those are the people who press upon the 
 charity funds. In distress we let charity go to people whom we ourselves 
 create 1 Yes. 
 
 1689. Then it is a question whether by any means we can make the quality 
 of these workmen better, and prevent them coming down to this class which 
 charity touches. Taking the fact, do you think they could be taught to do 
 other work than they do ? We find that in the entirety of men who take to 
 painting ; we find that omnibus drivers and conductors have been painters and 
 everything else. As to knowing what to put such men to, that is difficult. 
 There are very respectable men among painters and decorators, but four-fifths 
 of the people who call themselves painters are clerks and others who have been 
 turned out of offices. 
 
 1690. Speaking of the real artisan who is a painter, and who suffers from the 
 season, can you suggest any way out of the difficulty could you, from your 
 knowledge of trade, propose anything that he could turn his hand to ? Is 
 there any form of trade work or carpentering which is done abroad now to 
 which their hands could be turned } These are questions which cannot be 
 answered off-hand. If you would propose the question on a piece of paper and 
 send it to me I will be happy to consider it. 
 
 1691. I infer that it comes to this : that the success of the administration 
 of a local fund depends upon the time taken in preparation for it. In Islington, 
 could you get a muster of those who would know the people to deal with the
 
 98 
 
 Mr. F. J.DOVE 
 and Mr. R. 
 ROBERTS. 
 
 July 1C, 188C. 
 
 Miss P. R. 
 WILKINSON. 
 
 matter as you suggest, Mr. Roberts ? I think we could. There is a fear creep- 
 ing among the people that something will have to be done. 
 
 1692. Taking next winter, could you get a list of fifty or sixty people to 
 whom you could say, ' We will entrust you with this work on certain lines ?' 
 I think we might. We should have a considerable number of ladies. 
 
 1693. When you deal with the chronic class of poor 'the permanent 
 poor ' if you adopt in regard to them such a line as will exclude them, while 
 you also keep out the intruder and the lazy fellow, would you not be driven 
 into the same position as the Charity Organisation Society, and considered 
 somewhat harsh in dealing with this difficult class ? Yes ; but if we had large 
 bodies of local people, they would know the majority of the leading cases and be 
 able to justify their action. My own impression of the Charity Organisation 
 Society is that it is too much centralised. 
 
 1694. If we could arrange more sub-divisions, you would say it was the best 
 thing to do. Have you thought of the desirability of giving piece-work in 
 connection with the public works, which you suggested, so that the lazy man 
 may be spurred to do rather more than he otherwise would do ? (Mr. Dove) : 
 Are you referring to general work ? If they were works for purposes of im- 
 proving the neighbourhood, or railways, or sewage, I should say yes. 
 
 1C95. As regards the Poor Law, the guardians would do very little, you 
 think ? (Mr. Roberts) : Yes ; the Poor Law administration is too much in the 
 hands of the shopkeepers, and working men know very little about it. I don't 
 know whether the vestryman or the Guardian in Islington is looked upon 
 with the greater contempt. (Mr. Dove) : I think Guardians are rather too 
 much tied by the hands by the Local Government. It prevents a healthy 
 kind of emulation between the parishes. 
 
 Miss F. R. WILKINSON, examined. 
 
 1696. (Chairman) : You are landscape gardener to the Metropolitan Public 
 Gardens Association ? Yes. 
 
 1697. That Association has laid out a good many gardens last winter ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1698. You took up more work than usual because of the distress ? Yes ; 
 for the last two winters. 
 
 1699. It is difficult, I suppose, to say how many have been employed 
 this last winter ? I believe Captain Thompson has the numbers ; if you ask 
 him he will give them to you. 
 
 [The Secretary read an extract showing the extent of the work and the 
 rate of wages for the work, done by the Society.]* 
 
 1700. And then, supposing you were going to lay out a garden, what is 
 the mode of procedure ? Sometimes the local vestry sent the men. The 
 Self-Help Emigration Society sent some men. At Stepney Church, the Mile 
 End Mansion House Sub-Committee sent the men because they supplied part 
 of the funds; and others were sent by the local clergy. 
 
 1701. Does your society employ foremen? Yes, we have foremen, and 
 Dangers ^ there is a large number of men. 
 
 bv the ^ re *^ e f remen employed by the Society ? The foreman is engaged 
 Metropolitan Public Gardens Association, and the ganger is selected 
 om K he men. The foreman puts them all on to work, and sees how they do. 
 
 1'03. In regard to character, there is no investigation into the character of a 
 man 'We suppose it is done by the people who send the men. We don't do it. 
 1704. If they are found to be good workmen they are brought in I Yes. 
 
 * 'At the present time (March 6, 1886) the number of men employed daily in laying 
 out churchyards and other open spaces for the benefit of the public, and being paid for by 
 the Association, is about 440. . . . The men are engaged from the neighbourhoods in 
 which their work is found, and in some cases are paid at the rate of 4d. an hour for five 
 hours, two gangs being thus employed daily, and a fourpenny meal provided for each man 
 before he commences his labours ; while in other cases, when no meal is provided, the 
 men are employed at 4<Z. an hour for eight or nine hours daily.' From the Monthly 
 Statement of the Metropolitan Public Gardens Association. Charity Organisation 
 Rcviiw, March, 1886, p. 114.
 
 99 
 
 1705. And the rate of wages 4d. per hour, and 4rf. for dinner, for a day of Miss F. E. 
 five hours' work ? Yes, generally five hours. WIMINSOX. 
 
 1706. What is an ordinary rate for private work? I have had to give a July in, issc. 
 man 3s. Qd. or 4s. a day ; then they worked 10 hours. 
 
 1707. Supposing you are employing these men at 4d an hour, do you get 
 4d an hour work out of them 1 No, I don't. 
 
 1708. They are not first-rate workmen 1 No ; there were men of all trades. 
 
 1709. And when paid this lower rate of wages, they don't give much work for 
 the money? No; and those men to whom we have given Gd. a day more, we 
 have got better work out of them. 
 
 1710. So that in your opinion the higher rate of wages would really secure 
 more work in proportion ? This winter we have got very much less work done 
 than the winter before, when we worked eight hours. 
 
 1711. The less you pay per day the less work you get done in proportion '! 
 Yes ; in Stepney we had very great difficulty. We could hardly get the men to 
 work at all. They began by smoking, and down in Drury Lane we could not 
 get men early in the morning. They would not come to work early. 
 
 1712. And did some go off after half a day 1 Yes ; at Drury Lane we only 
 'wanted six men, and we could not get them at seven o'clock in the morning. 
 That was in April. 
 
 1713. You were carrying this on in the winter? Yes. 
 
 1714. While the Mansion House fund was going on ? Yes. 
 
 1715. Did that keep them away ? I cannot say from experience ; though 1 
 have heard it, 
 
 1716. Do you think that the fact of the Society employing a certain number 
 of men was a benefit to some of those men ? I have known one or two cases 
 where they have gone back to their own work in the spring, and are doing well. 
 A good deal of the money was Mansion House money. It all was paid through 
 the Society. 
 
 1717. It was work that would not have been done otherwise ? No, we made 
 a good deal of extra work. 
 
 1718. When you say extra work? More digging. It was all by way of 
 improvement. It was all work we should not have had done if we had not had 
 this money to spend in giving work to the unemployed. 
 
 1719. Did you know a man's former employment ? Yea, whenever I made 
 inquiries ; it appeared they came from all classes. 
 
 1720. Had you anything to do with the grounds laid out in Marylebone ? 
 No, I had not ; the Association paid for the labour there. All work is stopped 
 now. We shall not have any more gardening again till October. 
 
 1721. You had 1,500 of the Mansion House fund, and you will get about 
 1,500 more ? Yes, I suppose so. 
 
 1722. Do you think that is the best way of relieving distress in London ? - 
 I should not like to give an opinion. 
 
 1723. It is a good way you think ? I think it is a good way to give labour, 
 but very unsatisfactory as the work was done. . 
 
 1724. Why not make some inquiry ? How can I ? It is not part of my 
 work for the Association. The antecedents of the men are supposed to have 
 been inquired into. 
 
 1725. It is done to supply work to respectable working men? They are 
 supposed to have been inquired into. 
 
 1726. (Mr. Allen) : Can you tell me why the Association thought it necessary 
 to give a fourpenny meal in addition to the wages 1 They did not want to 
 interfere with the labour market, and decided to pay 5d. an hour five hours' 
 work, and to give a meal. 
 
 1727. Did it appear to the Society that there was any difference in giving 
 food ? I don't know the reason. 
 
 1728. Suppose you were asked your opinion, would you recommend the meal 
 and raise the rate of wages ? I think the meal is a very good thing in many 
 cases, because the men are often half-starved. 
 
 1729. Perhaps that was one of the reasons for giving the meal before they 
 started ? Yes. 
 
 1730. Supposing you were beginning again, what rate of pay would you
 
 100 
 
 Miss F. R. recommend ? Not less than d. per hour for eight hours, and I should like 
 
 sox. very much to have two classes of workmen. 
 July 16, 1886. 1731. So that you could promote a man into the better class ? Yes. 
 
 1732. (Mr. Loch) : With regard to the payment of wages, we have evidence 
 that there are two classes of workmen the loafing class, who will not work, 
 and the better class. 1 understand that in spite of the inquiry which takes 
 place a great many of the loafing class come in ? Yes. 
 
 1733. Do you think that by making a selection and grouping them according 
 to industrial power and energy you could set them to piece-work with good 
 results 1 I should think it might be done. 
 
 1734. There would be certain advantages, would there not ? I have had no 
 experience, but I should think it might be done. 
 
 1735. Taking the cosb and comparing it with the contract price for that 
 amount of labour applied to similar work, what would be the difference, do 
 you suppose 1 We spent four times the amount it could have been done for by 
 contract. 
 
 1736. (Chairman) : That was the result of employing cheap labour ? That 
 was not the object. The object of the Metropolitan Public Gardens Association 
 was to give work to the greatest number of men. 
 
 1737. (Mr. Loch) : But a great many might have been at the stone yard ? 
 Yes. 
 
 1738. And it would have been better for the others, as they make each other 
 idle? Yes. 
 
 1739. (Mr. Peters) : What effect upon loafers has it, do you think 1 I got 
 rid of some. With this large number I could not know all the men. 
 
 3740. May it not be possible to do harm by paying them a low rate of 
 wages ? I should think they might be 
 
 1741. (Mr. Loch) : You would not propose to go on in this chronic fashion, 
 supplementing lack of work by these means / Could these men be turned into 
 emigrants ? I believe a great many have emigrated. 
 
 1742. You don't know how many what proportions 1 Could these works 
 be so carefully managed, e.g., as to make the man who came in as an in- 
 different labourer a good ground worker ? I should think so. I know several 
 made capable under a good foreman. 
 
 1743. And if you were to clear out those who were labour-yard cases it 
 might be done so as to divide the classes, and take those who have good stuff 
 in them, and make them better ? Yes. 
 
 1744. I gather from your explanation that the men are sent to you from 
 various people, more or less selected. You have a pay-sheet filled up by the 
 foreman ? The foreman fills it up, and one of the men signs it, to show they 
 have received the amount. 
 
 1745. Did that work well ? Yes ; I have not heard any complaint. 
 
 1746. Were there a great number of dismissals ? I could not tell how many 
 were dismissed, and how many went away of their own accord. 
 
 1747. Do you know why they went away of their own accord ? Was it in 
 March or April 1 No. They could go away at an hour's notice ; they were 
 paid daily. 
 
 1748. So far as this was a permanent means of support during difficulties or 
 distress, it did not act in that way for a great number '} No. 
 
 1749. With regard to dismissals, do you suppose Mr. Collie would be able to 
 tell us ? Yes, he would be able to tell. 
 
 1750. Did you find at all that things of this sort were said : ' We have such 
 a great many to work, it does not matter whether they are bad or good. We 
 must keep them, and say nothing about it ' ? No, I did not hear that. 
 
 1751. The plan of employing two gangs of men was not very satisfactory ? 
 No ; the men only just got into the way of working when they had to go. 
 In a letter to Captain Thompson, Mr. Lovegrove, Surveyor to the Hackney 
 Board of Works, said he had found the plan of only working fhe men five hours 
 to have worked much better than he expected, and that he was continuing the 
 plan, only doing away with the meal and paying 5d. an hour for five hours' work. 
 
 1752. (Chairman) : One of the gentlemen who was here just now, largely 
 engaged in the building trade, said he found nothing so demoralising as for a good
 
 101 
 
 man to be out of work. Now your Association would, in the case of good men who WH^-INSON 
 
 are employed in such work, by employing them in such work as yours in J _1 
 
 the winter months, save them from this demoralising influence ? Yes. July is, 1886. 
 
 1753. The Association would prevent them from being idle ? We did begin 
 to employ painters this year very early. 
 
 (Dr. Longstaff ) : The gist of the thing lies in the Association making strict 
 inquiry into the cases before it gives the work. I cannot see why there should 
 not be strict inquiry made. 
 
 1754. (Mr. Peters) : As to taking on the painters very early ? Their busy 
 time does not come on till quite the end of April, but we began with them in. 
 March. 
 
 (The Committee then adjourned.) 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 23, 1886. 
 Present MR. PELL, in the Chair, 
 
 Mr. E. PETERS, Mr. A. G. CROWDER, 
 
 Rev. W. CURTIS HAYWARD, Mr. F. J. S. EDGCOMBE, 
 
 Dr. G. B. LONGSTAFF, Mr. J. H. ALLEN. 
 
 Mr. HEDLEY, attending on behalf of the Local Government Board. 
 
 MR. G. COLLIE, examined. 
 
 1755. (Chairman) : Mr. Collie, will you give us your address, and say what 
 business or occupation you pursue ? I live at 18 Fawcett Road, Rotherhithe, - 
 and am a gardener by occupation. 
 
 1756. What do you desire to tell us upon the subject you know we are 
 inquiring into the distress last winter, and the way in which it was met I 
 We should like to have your views generally. First of all, were you a recipient 
 or a distributor ? I was a foreman in the employ of the Metropolitan Public 
 Gardens Association, and superintended the men. 
 
 1757. Indirectly you were a recipient and paid to workmen ? The Asso- 
 ciation received money from the Mansion House Fund, and it came to me. 
 I had the paying of the men. 
 
 1758. Did that money go into hotch-potch with the money of the Associa- 
 tion ? That I do not know. It was only the unemployed that I had anything 
 to do with. 
 
 1759. You know you had some money to pay among the unemployed ; that 
 money you believe to have come from the Mansion House Fund through your 
 Association ? Yes. I believe so. 
 
 1760. How much did you pay away ? This last spring ? 
 
 1761. Of this Mansion House money? I cannot say exactly. I should 
 think between 400 and 500. 
 
 1762. Were you paying away other money the original funds of the Asso- 
 ciation for the same workmen ? That I cannot answer. 
 
 1763. Were you paying more than you usually would pay away ? Yes ; we 
 were paying twice as many men to do the work as could have done it. 
 
 1764. Before this money was sent to the Association what is the Associa- 
 tion called ? The Metropolitan Public Gardens Association. 
 
 1765. Before it was sent to the Association was there an unusual number of 
 applications for employment ? The unemployed were those we employed before 
 from our own fund. 
 
 1766. About when do you think this fund began to be increased by the con- 
 tribution from the Mansion House Fund ? About the middle of February. 
 
 1767. Did your Association put out any public intimation that more men 
 could be taken on owing to this money ? Yes ; the Association took men from 
 the vestries of the different localities where works were going on, as soon as 
 they knew they had the means of paying. 
 
 1768. Would you take any men except the men who came from the 
 vestries ? None.
 
 102 
 
 Mr. G. Cou.n:. 1769. What vestries were they that supplied you with men ? Bermondsey 
 
 se. vestry supplied me. 
 
 1770. Any other ? No, not me. 
 
 1771. Not your work that you were overlooking ? No. 
 
 1772. The selection did you feel yourself bound to take any of the men on 
 that your vestry sent you ? Were the inquiries made by you or by the vestry 1 
 By the vestry. 
 
 1773. You set them on ? That was all. 
 
 1774. Was the result of setting these men on satisfactory to you as an over- 
 looker of labour 1 Would you like the job again as a foreman of labour ? 1 
 would not object to the job again. 
 
 1775. You thought you got good men, who gave you no trouble 1 Some 
 were good, others middling, and others bad. 
 
 1776. Do you think business was conducted on satisfactory terms when the 
 master compels you to pay such a mixture, and leaves the foreman no power of 
 dismissal 1 Oh, but I had power. 
 
 1777. Did you dismiss any? Very few. The men as a whole appeared to 
 be a decent lot of men. I had about 125 of them. 
 
 1778. You mean, they were not disinclined to do their best ? There were 
 very few who were actually lazy, but they were not accustomed to the work, 
 and did not earn the money that was paid. 
 
 . 1779. Then as far as a useful application of the money you have not much 
 to say for it 1 I think it was of very much use to the men employed. 
 
 1780. If you had had the 500 to spend, you would have got more labour 
 if you had selected the men yourself ? Would you have got double the 
 labour 1 Yes, quite that. 
 
 1781. Had any of the work to be undone afterwards 1 No, sir. 
 
 1782. What was the sort of work they did 1 The work we did was the 
 graveyard round St. James's Church, Bermondsey. We removed nearly all 
 the tombstones in the ground to the sides, and then laid out the space as a 
 garden. 
 
 1783. You levelled it ? We made the ground into a park-like garden. 
 
 1784. How big a piece of ground ? Two acres. 
 
 1785. Have you seen the ground of St. George's-in-the-East ? No, I have 
 never been in that ground ; I expect it would be the same kind of work. 
 
 1786. You put the gravestones back ? Not to their places ; but put them 
 back to the wall, levelled the ground, and proceeded to turf it. It's a very 
 pretty garden now, sir. 
 
 1787. I have no doubt of that. Now, what condition were the men in when 
 they came to you 1 Were there outward evidences of want ? Yes ; a great 
 many of them were very poorly clothed. 
 
 1788. Did they look badly fed ? Well, there was no sign of starvation. 
 
 1789. And what classes of persons what was their employment, could you 
 tell ? A good many of them. A good many were waterside labourers river 
 men. A great many of them were casual labourers, ready to do anything they 
 could do. 
 
 1790. Any tailors, do you think ? Yes. I had two or three tailors, sawyers, 
 hatters, and so on. 
 
 1791. Had you any healthy men among them, who said that putting them 
 to this work would disable them for their particular industry the regular 
 employment they would pursue if they could get work in it ? No. I had no 
 such complaints. 
 
 1792. Yoii really were nothing but the overlooker of the work, and you 
 got the most you could out of them ? Yes, sir. 
 
 1793. And you saw that they did what the Association desired should be 
 done on the ground ? Yes, sir. 
 
 1794. What caused the work to be discontinued did they leave ? What 
 time did they go off? As soon as the work was nearly done. 
 
 1795. And you exhausted the money that had been subscribed ? I believe 
 we did, sir. 
 
 1796. Can you tell me what time of year was it April or May ? A great
 
 103 
 
 many of the men were paid off after four or five weeks ; then the rougher part Mr. &. COLLIE. 
 of the work was done : then I kept the more useful and handy men to finish up T , , ,_ 
 
 ,, , .., - 1 or July ^o, liioD. 
 
 the work with. 
 
 1797. Was it the intention of the Association to have executed this work 
 before the Mansion House fund was heard of 1 Yes ; I know they intended to 
 do it. 
 
 1798. How should you have proceeded to do the work if you had not had 
 the exceptional distress and the fund ? When the Association did work they 
 always employed the unemployed, and paid them at the rate of 4d. per hour. 
 
 1799. Did they select their men ? Well, when the men were taken on we 
 could not tell till they were tried whether they were useful ; and if they did 
 their best we tried to keep them on. 
 
 1800. Would you have completed this job without the extra help 1 Yes ; 
 but with it we did the work more quickly. 
 
 1801. Did you say that you had been in the habit of paying 4d. an hour ? 
 Always the same, 4d. an hour. 
 
 1802. Did you say 1 understood or inferred that you did not get so much 
 work done for 4d. by this body of men as out of the men you usually em- 
 ployed ? No ; because in time of distress there were actually more men 
 employed than could be looked after properly. 
 
 1803. Am I right in saying that you were actuated by other motives than 
 the completion of this garden namely, that of putting money into the hands of 
 men who were very much in want of it ? Yes. 
 
 1804. (Mr. Peters) : You gave them 4td. an hour ; how many hours ? When 
 we began this we gave them eight hours a day. The Association last year 
 employed them nine hours a day at 4d. Then, after we had been at work about 
 ten days at St. James's, it was arranged to take on the men in gangs, and to 
 work each gang five hours, so that they had only Is. 8d. a day each man. They 
 began work at half-past six in the morning ; they were allowed 4rf. to have 
 breakfast at nine, then they worked up to twelve o'clock. 
 
 1805. Was it not very dark at half-past six in the morning 1 No. In the 
 middle of February there is a- good deal of light at half -past six. Then the 
 next gang were taken on at twelve. They were allowed 4d. also ; they did not 
 get the money, but a meal, which they had at two o'clock. 
 
 1806. And you estimated that meal as worth ? Fourpence. 
 
 1807- (Rev. W. Curtis Hayward) : Then in fact they only got Is. 4d. and a 
 meal ? No ; Is. 8d. and a meal. 
 
 1808. (Chairman) : Oh, did they have a meal besides 1 Yes ; it was not 
 given as part of the money. It was not considered part of the wages, but a 
 gift by the Association. 
 
 1809. (Rev. W. C. Hayward) : I was not quite sure of one fact were you 
 employed by the Association as a foreman before the Mansion House Fund 1 
 Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 1810. In the early part of the winter 1 Since March, 1885. 
 
 1811. For how long were men content to work for you at that rate ? Did 
 you have the same men 1 I had no difficulty in keeping the men on as long 
 as I liked. 
 
 1812. Do you think the plan of giving a f ourpenny meal was a good plan ? 
 It would do very well for a single man who was in distress, but was not much 
 good to a married man. Nine hours would have been preferable for a married 
 man, even without the meal. 
 
 1813. Supposing the secretary of the Association in the beginning of the 
 next winter were to give them 2s. for the five hours' work, or Is. 8d. and a 
 meal, which would you recommend 1 Oh, the meal. 
 
 1814. Why 1 For the class of men employed. You would be certain of 
 their having one good meal. 
 
 1815. Do you mean they would drink the Is. 8d. instead of eating it ? 
 Some, no doubt, would prefer drinking it to eating it. 
 
 1816. (Dr. Longstaff) : Did any large proportion of the men throw up the 
 work of their own accord ? No ; I don't recollect one throwing up work 
 except he had got a better job. 
 
 i2
 
 104 
 
 >ir. G. COLLIE. 1817. (Mr. Growder) : What opportunity had they of looking for work in 
 
 the regular way ? Did you cease to employ them after 12 o'clock ? Yes ; they 
 
 Jniy 23, 1886. ^ad all the afternoon to look for work, but they said that then it was not much 
 use to look for it. We made shifts. One week one set of men were the 
 morning gang, the next week they formed the afternoon gang. 
 
 1818. Did any number of them get drunk in any part of the day ? That 
 scarcely ever occurred. Very little indeed ; wonderful little. 
 
 1819. (Mr. Edgcombe) : What is the market rate for such work as these men 
 were supposed to do the open market price ? Not less than 5 1. an hour. 
 
 1820. Would you be able to get men to work half a day at that rate ? A 
 good man might expect 5d. 
 
 1821. What was the work ? Spade work principally. 
 
 1822. They were sent by the vestry ? Yes. 
 
 1823. You don't know if there were any who would have liked the work 
 who did not get it ? Oh, hundreds came from different parts round. 1 always 
 sent them to the vestry-hall. 
 
 ] 824. Those who applied were bond fide men out of work ? Yes ; the 
 greater part of them were. A very few came merely to get the money, and 
 did not like the work. 
 
 1825. There was a certain percentage of men you got rid of because they 
 would not do the work ? Yes. 
 
 1826. (Mr. Allen): Where do you live in Bermondsey ? No, Rotherhithe. 
 
 1827. Do you think there was much more distress last winter than usual ? 
 I cannot say with any authority with any certainty. The men said there was. 
 
 1828. You could not say it of your own knowledge ? No. 
 
 1829. Were these men the class of men who are always out of work between 
 January and March 1 There is always a certain class of men out of employ- 
 ment in the winter. The great majority of them were, no doubt. 
 
 1830. Then supposing Lord Brabazon's Society did not exist, these men 
 would have had to come to the parish ? Just so. 
 
 1831. If they had, would it not have been a good plan if the guardians had 
 opened a labour yard 1 Yes. 
 
 1832. If they are always out of employment in the winter, these men r 
 instead of being paid out of charitable funds, would have been assisted by the 
 parish ? Is there a labour yard at Bermondsey ? I believe there is. 
 
 1833. Why did they not go to the labour yard, then 1 I believe there is 
 stone-breaking at Rotherhithe, and men were employed there. 
 
 1834. Why did not these men go there ? I was told that the money there 
 was only a shilling a day, and the labour was very hard to men not used to it. 
 
 1835. Then they preferred charity money? Yes. 
 
 1836. But there is no doubt about the fact that if there had been no 
 Lord Brabazon's Society they must have gone to the parish ? I don't know 
 what else they could have done. 
 
 1837. Then there would have been no help ? No. 
 
 1838. Did you make any inquiry about the class of men you took on 1 Were 
 any inquiries made as to character ? Well, the people at the Bermondsey 
 vestry knew most of the men that were taken on. 
 
 1839. Knew them to be men of good character? Men who were not 
 loafers. 
 
 1840. There is just one other question about the waterside labourers. Don't 
 they earn very large money in the summer ? When work is plentiful. 
 
 1841. They are men who carry timber, and they earn large sums of money, 
 and they drink the greater part of it ? I have no doubt a great many of them do. 
 
 1842. And, consequently, during the months of January, February, and 
 March hey are always out of work ? Yes, the greater part of them. 
 
 1843 ( Mr. Loch) : Did you make any special arrangements for looking 
 after the men while they were at work, so as to distribute the men the 
 industrious men with the idlers? When I had a lot of men like that, I had 
 always one or two picked out whom I knew before, who had been with the 
 Association before. They were given a little larger money to assist in 
 overlooking ; the men were therefore either under my own eye or under the
 
 105 
 
 eye of one of them. If the men were well conducted and appeared to be useful, Mr. G. COLLIB. 
 
 they were selected as men to be kept on when we were obliged to slacken 
 
 hands. July 23 ' 1886 ' 
 
 1844. Did you take care to sort the men so as to put the good with second 
 rate ? Oh, of course. If I had half a dozen good men with forty or fifty 
 indifferent ones, I set them on with the awkward ones. 
 
 1845. With regard to payment, did you try paying them on any other 
 system than 4d. an hour and a meal ? No. 
 
 1846. What do you think of a system of paying them by the piece ? I think 
 it would be difficult to arrange with work of this sort. For one thing, if you 
 set men on to work by the piece say, to trench a bit of ground a good many 
 of them would have no idea of what you mean by trenching, and I do not think 
 it would be any good to themselves. They could not do it. 
 
 1847. But, generally, the men get to be more handy 1 Yes, some of 
 them. 
 
 1848. It would be a better test if you could apply the piece system ? Yes ; 
 but I don't think it could be done. It would be a good plan to adopt a scale of 
 wages. 
 
 1849. That is what I am driving at. How would you arrange it ? Well, 
 some would be dear at Is. Sd. a day for any good they did. 
 
 1850. You might estimate the wage-worth of the men and pay by that 1 
 Yes ; but the incapable workmen could not live on that. 
 
 1851 . But might it not be better to let these men go to the labour yard ? 
 Yes, I should say they might. 
 
 1852. If there had been a distinction between labour-yard men and other 
 men, would not the garden-work have sped better ? Yes, very much. There 
 appeared a very strong feeling against going there. I don't know anything 
 about the labour yard by experience. 
 
 1853. (liev. W. C. Hayward) : If they got Is. a day only, how could they 
 live ? No ; how could they '? 
 
 1854. (Mr. Hedley) : Remember that in the labour yard they are paid 
 according to scale and according to family. 
 
 (Chairman to Witness} : You don't know much about the labour yard. The 
 Committee admit that in addition to the shilling a day which the men would 
 have by going to the labour yard, there would be something more given, on a 
 scale having reference to the number of the family that the shilling a day was 
 not all they would get. That is the Committee's opinion, not that of the 
 witness. 
 
 1855. (Mr. Loch) : At other times do you admit people to these works 
 without inquiry ? No. 
 
 1856. What sort of inquiry do you make ? Formerly the men had to go to 
 the Memorial Hall in Farringdon Street. 
 
 1857. What is meant by formerly ? 1885. 
 
 1858. You mean that the year before it had been the custom of the Associa- 
 tion to send them to the Memorial Hall for inquiry? Yes; and to Collier's 
 Rents, Borough. 
 
 1859. You left the inquiry afterwards with the vestry ? Did you find you 
 had a better set of men before 2 There was very little to choose between 
 them. 
 
 1860. (Chairman) : You have told us one thing, that it was reasonable that 
 men should have the morning to look for work would it have been a better 
 plan not to have commenced the work till nine or ten, and left the men to look 
 tor work ? Oh, yes. It was the intention to relieve as many men as possible, 
 and on that small piece of ground there could not be so many men employed in 
 one gang as could be in two, therefore we employed twice as many men as we 
 could otherwise have done on the ground. 
 
 1861. When did you close for the day ? Half-past five. 
 
 1862. Did you not tell us that the men of the neighbourhood earned very 
 large wages in the summer, with the certainty of being out of work in the 
 winter ? Yes, it is the case. But I believe this last summer, and also this 
 present summer, labour has been very short all through.
 
 10G 
 
 3lr. G. COLLIE. Ig63 Therefore you think that the origin of these men coming to your 
 
 July 23, 1880. society for assistance and work in the winter was due to their not having been 
 
 so well employed in the previous summer as previously 1 I believe the work 
 
 along the river-side has been very slack in the summer of 1885, in the winter, 
 
 and now. 
 
 1864. (Dr. Longstaff) : Have you any personal means of forming an opinion 
 as to whether there is likely to be great distress next winter, or otherwise ? 
 Yes, I hear people speak of it. It appears to be the opinion of the men them- 
 selves. 
 
 1865. I suppose you are still working as a gardener in some way ? The 
 Association not being prepared to go on with more new work at present, my 
 services, as foreman, of course are not required. 
 
 1866. Then you have not come in contact with men otherwise than in con- 
 nection with the Association ? No ; except what I have heard hearsay. 
 
 1867. (Chairman) : What particular class of workmen are you acquainted 
 with yourself with gardeners ? Yes, sir, with gardeners. 
 
 1868. Would you tell us whether they are receiving less wages now than 
 they were last year ? I don't know, sir. My work as a gardener was in private 
 situations, so that I do not know. 
 
 1869. You must have made an acquaintance with gardeners. Have no men 
 whom you know come and asked you, ' Can you put me on to work, for I'm 
 afraid we are going to have a bad time of it ? ' Oh, yes. Jobbing men I cannot 
 say about. 
 
 1870. You find more men out of place who have been in gentlemen's 
 service ? Oh, yes. Establishments reduced ; wages not so good. 
 
 1871. Are they making a fight to keep up wages ? Could they get work at 
 lower wages ? Is there a little struggle going on on that point, whether they 
 will take less wages or stick out and try to get the same as before ( Oh, I 
 think they would accept less wages, certainly. 
 
 1872. And still they cannot get employment ? Many cannot. 
 
 1873. (Dr. Longstaff) : Really good men, of good character ? Oh, yes ; 
 competent men ; excellent in every way. 
 
 1874. And you think such men would have got employment a few years ago ? 
 You don't think them incapacitated by age ? Oh, I know men in the prime of 
 life, men out for a long time, working in nurseries for very small wages, lower 
 than 4d. an hour ; men who have been getting over 100 a year. 
 
 1875. (Chairman) : That you know yourself ? Yes, that I know ; but that 
 is a different question altogether to London employment. 
 
 1876. But it shows the general depression. 
 
 MR. G. T. WESTBROOK, examined. 
 
 Mr. G. T. 1877. (Cliairman) : You are good enough to come to tell us something about 
 
 \VKSTBROOK. ^he distress last winter. Do you live in Limehouse ? Yes. 
 
 1878. How many years have you lived there 1 Thirty-nine. 
 
 1879. And what is your employment ? Shipwright. 
 
 1880. Working for whom ? For Lester & Perkins, Albert Dock, till to- 
 night. 
 
 1881. Had you anything to do with the distribution of charitable funds last 
 winter ? Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 1882. How were you engaged with Mansion House money 1 I saw Mr. 
 Maltby, the agent of the Charity Organisation Society Committee. 
 
 1883. About what time of year middle of February ? It was at the com- 
 mencement of the Mansion House Fund. Mr. Maltby gave me a letter of 
 introduction to Mr. Jackson. He is a member of Toynbee Hall. 
 
 1884. And what did you do with Mr. Jackson ? He took me on to see the 
 cases as they came in. 
 
 1885. And he engaged you to do what ? To do the general work of the 
 office. 
 
 1886. At Limehouse, for the Mansion House Fund ? Yes.
 
 107 
 
 1887. Was your work confined to indoor work ? Very nearly all the time. 
 
 1888. Perhaps you will tell us how you spent the day I I got there at nine 
 in the morning. I had a desk ; I entered the cases that had been done the 
 previous day. I entered them into a ledger, and then entered them into alpha- 
 betical books of reference. After I had done that I went out and visited some 
 of the cases. 
 
 1889. Some of the cases to which money had been awarded ? To which 
 nothing had been awarded. 
 
 1890. You went on a tour of inspection and inquiry as to some cases I Yes. 
 
 1891. And what revelations did you get upon the cases I Was there evidence 
 of great distress ? Yes ; and evidence of great imposture, too. 
 
 1892. And some evidence of idleness, I suppose ? Yes. 
 
 1893. Which was most abundant, imposture, idleness, or distress I There 
 is a difference between the classes of people that I visited. Some I visited were 
 hard working people brought down to distress ; others were chronic paupers. 
 
 1894. And some opened their mouths because they thought something 
 might be put into it 'I Yes. 
 
 1895. Then the people who were hard working honest distress what class 
 were those ? They were mechanics generally. 
 
 1896. About what would be the rent of the houses they were living in? 
 Unfortunately, the houses down there the houses are six to eight-roomed 
 houses, and they are let out in apartments. 
 
 1897. And these people you are speaking of were people renting a room or 
 two ? Yes. 
 
 1898. Did you find that they had pawned much of their goods ? Yes. 
 
 1899. Did you find them sitting without fires in their rooms? No; not 
 particularly without fires. 
 
 1900. And to what did they attribute their distress to work having stopped 
 on the river at the time, or to something having happened to the trade in the 
 summer '? It has been slack these last three or four years a general depression. 
 
 1901. Were they people who were likely to, have had money in the savings 
 bank 1 Yes, sir. 
 
 1902. Did they tell you that they had sold out ? I knew possibly that they 
 had drawn out. And people in building societies had been obliged to part with 
 their shares for common necessaries. 
 
 1903. How were these cases treated ? Leave the imposition out. How did 
 you deal with the honest cases ? You found a man poorly off, who had drawn 
 upon his capital ; you reported to the Committee, and what was done ] They 
 relieved him. 
 
 1904. With money ? No ; not with money. There were several cases, 
 first of all, we relieved with money. That was before we got fairly into 
 working order, but very little money went out. 
 
 1905. Do you approve of money ? No, 1 don't. 
 
 1906. What was the better system that you adopted when you had to do 
 so ? Tickets upon different tradesmen, not one particular man, but selected 
 tradesmen. 
 
 1907. People who would supply them with goods, and not swop them for 
 money ? Oh, yes. 
 
 1908. Upon the whole, do you think that the Mansion House fund was of 
 service ? It was of great service. 
 
 1909. What would have happened to these people but for the Mansion 
 House Fund 1 I believe they would have gone to the Poor Law guardians. 
 
 1910. After all, was there money enough placed at your disposal to prevent 
 any of those deserving people from going, or had they some still to get ? I 
 think it tided them over it very well for the time. 
 
 1911. Now, we have got to the end of July ; does the depression in business 
 still continue ? I can only answer for one the shipwright that is still con- 
 tinuing. The shipwrighting trade has gone from London. 
 
 1912. (Mr. Allen) : It has gone for the last ten years. 
 
 1913. (Chairman) : Are these men hanging on to a business that is 
 exhausted ! They cannot get anything else ; there is such depression. A great 
 many have gone to other trades.
 
 108 
 Mr. G. T. 1 914. But there are some who won't do that ? There are some who can't ; 
 
 WB8TBUOOK. it 'g not to be got 
 
 July 23, 1886. 1915. Not in Limehouse ? If I could get away from shipwrighting I would 
 
 to-morrow. The trade is done. There are so many of us that the trade is done. 
 
 1916. Then you think you may have the same sort of distress next winter 
 that occurred last winter ? I am afraid so in our trade ; I can't answer for 
 other trades. 
 
 1917. Well, now, don't you think it is possible that these men are hanging 
 on to a decayed industry because they think that during the winter they may 
 get some relief from bounty ? Oh, no, sir. 
 
 1918. I don't want to trap you in any way, but I want your opinion. Take 
 your own case, and those of men with whom you are acquainted. Suppose 
 that they knew absolutely that there would be no Mansion House Fund, do 
 you think they would remain at Limehouse, where they are, if they felt for a 
 certainty that they could not calculate upon some bounty in the cold weather I 
 Necessity would compel them to remain there. Not calculating upon any 
 relief, they would gladly go, if they could better themselves. 
 
 1919. Then may we not gather from that that men are being kept there 
 to their detriment by the hope of some bounty coming to them in the winter, 
 and that it would be better to make an effort now ? That is so, probably. 
 
 1920. (Chairman) : I asked him whether, if these men could feel certain 
 that there would not be bounty coming to them next winter to meet this 
 depression, would they or would they not stay there ? Is there still virtue 
 enough left in the trade to enable him to live through the winter, or does it 
 require some bounty like the Mansion House Fund to enable a man to go 
 through the twelve months '? That is the condition of our industry now. 
 
 1921. Would they stay? They would have to stay, simply for the reason 
 that there is nowhere else for them to go. 
 
 1922. That is your opinion, but there is a map of England. How are they 
 to go? 
 
 1923. (Mr. Allen) : The shipwrights, as a matter of fact, have not had 
 much work for the last ten years ? Yes. 
 
 1924. But a large number have moved off? We were 2,000, and now we 
 are about 1,3CO. There have been a number of apprentices coming into the 
 trade. 
 
 1925. The wages are the same as ten years ago ? Seven shillings a day. 
 
 1926. Is there a labour yard at Poplar ? I cannot answer. 
 
 1927. Are you not in Poplar Union ? No ; in Stepney Union. There is no 
 labour yard there. 
 
 1928. Supposing there had been a labour yard there, would they have gone 
 in ? Not if they could have struggled on without. 
 
 1929. I think you have said that they Mere almost reduced to starvation ? 
 Yes, several. I should have thought that they would have gone into the labour 
 yard. I could not say whether they would or not. 
 
 1930. Would it have been a hardship to them to go there ? Yes, sir. 
 
 1931. Why? Would it injure their respectability ? Yes; it would lower 
 them. They would feel it so. 
 
 1932. Do you remember, a number of years ago, when a great many went 
 to the Poplar workhouse ? Yes, a number went into the labour yard. 
 
 1933. That was about fifteen years ago, and the labour yard was quite full. 
 The shipwrights went in then ; then why should they not go in now ? Among 
 the men that you visited were they all connected with the shipping trade I 
 No. 
 
 1934. What trades were they connected with >. There were some brick- 
 layers, and some moulders and engineers. 
 
 1935. The engineers are allowed ten shillings a week by the Union. They 
 would not be in destitution ? No, sir ; but I don't see why that should debar 
 them from gel ting it. 
 
 1936. Still, they would not actually starve ? No. 
 
 1937. You know Lord Brabazon's Society ? I have heard of it. 
 
 1938. Do you know at Stepney a large number of people were offered
 
 109 
 
 employment and would not take the work ? I didn't know that they refused ^FS i T ' - 
 the work, but then the question is what did they offer them ? 
 
 1939. Only small wages, but ' a small loaf is better than no bread.' Would Ju] y 23 1886 - 
 they be suitable for emigration ? Yes. 
 
 1940. Do you know that they would be willing 1 I know several young 
 fellows in the Shipwrights' Society would like to go. 
 
 1941. Good men ? Yes, good men ; not loafers. 
 
 1942. Young men ? Yes. 
 
 1943. Single ? No, married men. 
 
 1944. (Mr. Edgcombe) : With reference to the distribution of the Mansion 
 House Fund, I understand the relief is only given to deserving persons ? Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 1945. It was only given in kind, I understand ? Not in money. 
 
 1946. Why was that ? In case it should have been made a bad use of. 
 We found that where they had had the money they had spent it in drink. 
 
 1947. Did not that show that the investigation was imperfect 1 Yes. 
 
 1948. If he was deserving why could he not be entrusted to spend his own 
 money ? You confined the relief to persons whose characters answered inquiry ! 
 Five shillings would have gone further than five shillings' worth of tickets ? 
 We gave the tickets ' on any grocer.' When the first order came we had to 
 name the tradesman, and we thought that by altering it to ' any grocer,' or 
 ' any baker,' the man could go to any shop general shop where they kept 
 butter and cheese as well as groceries, whereas if we named a grocer, he could 
 only get groceries. 
 
 1949. Supposing you are quite sure as to class and character, it is less 
 trouble to you and more agreeable to him to give him cash 1 Yes. 
 
 1950. It was only because you could not trust your own investigation that 
 you hedged yourselves in this manner ? We thought we would give it all in 
 kind. The Committee sent down that there was no rent to be paid, and we 
 thought if we gave cash it would go for rent. 
 
 1951. (Mr. Crou-der) : What was the nature of the investigation? I went 
 to the house. At first they came there before the Committee, who took the 
 case down. Afterwards we made the rule for them to leave the address and 
 then there was a visit. The number of children I saw, and whoever they 
 referred to the landlords of the hoiise I went to see if they were indebted 
 to them backward in their rent. We had no employers' reference ; we found 
 out we must insist on that before we could grant them relief. 
 
 1952. So that we have the visit to the home, reference to the landlord, 
 and then to the employer ? And then we wanted a reference to someone local 
 as to character. 
 
 1953. And when you said you distinguished the deserving from the idle 
 and the impostors, did you mean depending on your impression on the visit, 
 or on the whole investigation ? The whole investigation. I was so thoroughly 
 deceived by them I could not believe them. 
 
 1954. Well then, in Limehouse, what was your rule with reference to the 
 class who are never in regular work the casual labourer do you know 
 whether the Committee had any rule sent down to them with reference to that 
 particular class who were never in regular work ? We relieved them. 
 
 1955. Mr. Freemantle sent down a letter saying that that class was not to 
 be relieved, and I understood that that was carried out in Stepney ? We did 
 not relieve the casual labourers if they were not in regular work. One half of 
 the applicants in the Limehouse district were dock labourers. 
 
 1956. Was any inquiry made of the relieving officers with reference to these 
 people being in receipt of parish relief ? Oh, yes ; every case paper went to 
 Mr. Jones, the relieving officer. He knew one or two cases that I had reported 
 well of, and lie could tell me what had happened for some years. 
 
 1957. On the whole, considering that the number of applicants was large, 
 and the work hurried, and the staff small, were you satisfied with the method 
 you adopted, on the whole 1 Yes, at the latter end. 
 
 1958. And do you think upon the whole that it did more good than 
 harm ? Oh, yes ; it weeded a lot out who would have been relieved if there 
 had not been a strict inquiry.
 
 110 
 
 Mr. G. T. 1959. I meant did the fund do good ? Did the good outweigh the harm ? 
 
 \V KSTBKOOK. XT T J.T-- 1 
 
 Yes, I think so. 
 
 July 23, 1886. 1960. Now, take a shipwright, an artisan, a man whose wages are seven 
 shillings a day, a man who does not drink, a good mechanic, a man living 
 respectably in every way, what would be the effect upon the independent feeling 
 he would have, of having to lean upon a fund of this sort ? Very few put 
 themselves on. If I had not pressed them they would not have gone on to a 
 fund. One man whose case was brought before us, he begged that we would 
 not let them know that his name was before them. 
 
 1961. What was the effect of breaking down that fine spirit by the fund ? 
 I am speaking of the good man. Do you think a fund like this would lower 
 him at all ? I am afraid it would, sir. That is what T feel myself. I suppose 
 it is human nature. 
 
 1962. (Dr. Longstaff) : Then some of these men whom you had a difficulty 
 in persuading to accept of the fund might, in case of a similar fund being 
 formed, accept without much difficulty ? I cannot say that. If they thought 
 it was public, because it was lowering them, they would feel it very much. 
 
 1963. But they would not feel the lowering the second time so much as the 
 first? No, their spirit would be broken, crushed. 
 
 1964. Now, I gather that you approve of the system of tickets on the whole. 
 If you were asked to be one of a committee, would you approve of the use of 
 tickets ? Yes, sir. 
 
 1965. Did you come across any instance in which the tickets were used for 
 any other purpose sold or converted into drink ? I know one case where they 
 were sold for money, and the man got tight with the money. And another 
 one of a person who had sold six shillings' worth of tickets for three shillings. 
 My informant was behind her, and she said ' I have six shillings' worth of 
 tickets, and I have got a pair of trousers and a coat in pawn, and I must get 
 them out. You can have them for three shillings.' 
 
 1966 . In that case it was not drink ; it was converted into trousers . Did 
 that often occur? No. 
 
 1967 . Did the Committee redeem things from pawn ? Yes, tools, clothes, 
 and bedding. 
 
 1968 . Did the Committee pay arrears of clubs 1 Yes . 
 
 1969. Do you think that was a proper thing to do ? Yes. 
 
 1970. Did it give satisfaction to the artisan ? Yes. 
 
 1971. You said that at one time your trade numbered 2,000, and now only 
 1,300 ; are those the statistics of the union or your own impression 1 I can- 
 not say they are exactly the numbers, but that is what I take the number to 
 be at the present time, from what I know of the society. 
 
 1972. You have a fair means of judging, then ? Yes. 
 
 1973. And it was considerably larger ? Yes. 
 
 1974. When did the number begin to diminish ? How long ago was it 
 2,000? Ten years ago. 
 
 1975. Has it been diminishing more rapidly lately ? We keep at a standstill 
 now, because there are fewer apprentices to come in. There is a lot of these i 
 though they leave the trade, they do not leave the society. 
 
 1976. They are driven to take work of some other kind I Yes. 
 
 1977. They are still living in the place 1 Oh, not all in Limehouse. 
 
 1978. (Chairman): Not the 700. Have the 700 left the district ? Oh, 
 yes, entirely. 
 
 1979. If 700 shipwrights had left London, that would mean about 3,500 
 people altogether, counting women and children. Who is now employing these 
 people where they live ? I have no means of judging. 
 
 1980. Have the wages fallen in your trade I No, they are about the same 
 now. 
 
 1981. But a man does not earn as much now in a month as before ] 
 Nothing near. 
 
 1982. How many days' work is it common for a man to get now ? Men 
 average about three days a week. 
 
 1983. I suppose eight or ten years ago he had five days a week ? Yes.
 
 Ill 
 
 1984. (Mr. Allen) : And overtime besides? Yes. Mr. U.T. 
 
 1985. (Dr. Longstaff) : You said some of your people would be willing to Wl ' :sT " liOOK - 
 emigrate, is that to continue as shipwrights or to turn their hand to anything .' July 23, ism. 
 Yes, turn their hands to anything. We have one from Limehouse who has 
 
 gone away this time. 
 
 1986. Would you be able to give the emigration department of this Society 
 information as to proper persons for emigration ? We have had inquiries about 
 men to go to Australia. I would be willing to try. 
 
 1987. (Mr. Hedley) : Do you think that a man going into a shop with a 
 ticket gets as good value for his money as for the money out of his pocket, as 
 good value for your ticket ? I am afraid not, in some places. 
 
 1988. Is it not a matter of fact that the shipbuilding trade has left the Poplar 
 and Limehouse district ? Yes, from the cheapness of production in the north. 
 
 1989. Had not strikes a great deal to do with it ? No, sir ; perhaps it may 
 be the overcharges of the employers. 
 
 1990. As a matter of fact, the trade has gone 1 Oh, yes. 
 
 1991. (Clmirman) : But is it not also due to a very different class of ships 
 being built ? Much cheaper in the north, because there is the carriage of the 
 iron to London, a duty on coal in London ; everything tends to make production 
 cheaper in the north. 
 
 1992. (Mr. Hedley) : Have you any idea where it has gone to } At the 
 present time I don't know, sir. 
 
 1993. If the shipwrights were inclined to get work, could you advise them 
 where to go ? No ; we are connected with all ports, and have advices that 
 trade is very bad indeed everywhere. There has been a depression amongst 
 employers. At the docks they are fairly overstocked. 
 
 1994. (Chairman) : Are you talking of the London Docks ? Any docks. 
 
 1995. You mean lower down the river. The question put was ' the docks. ' 
 I wish to have it cleared up. Do you mean the new docks at Dagenham, that 
 they are overstocked ? They are overstocked with water. I was speaking of 
 the old docks. 
 
 1996. (Mr. Hedley) : You said that some of the dockyard labourers were 
 unwilling to receive relief from the Mansion House Fund, that it hurt their self- 
 respect? No, artisans. 
 
 1997. Which do you think would take most of their self-respect, and 
 deteriorate them more in the eyes of their fellow-workmen, their receiving 
 something from the Mansion House Fund, or being known to go into the 
 labour yard which would prejudice them most in their character ? If a man 
 fall down like that, I don't see it is against his character to receive it. They 
 ought not to lose their self-respect. 
 
 1998. What would be their own feeling that a fellow-workman would 
 look down upon them for receiving money from charity, or from working in 
 the labour yard ? I think they would feel it more going into the labour yard, 
 because some of their own mates would have to pay extra rates for them on 
 that account. 
 
 1999. (Mr. Peters) : I understood you to say that very few artisans or ship- 
 wrights have recourse to charity in the winter ? -Very few. 
 
 2000. How have they managed to get through the winter ? That is a 
 puzzle. I have asked how I managed myself. I am an abstainer, and have a 
 moderate share of work, but some of them have less than I do. I don't know 
 how they managed. 
 
 2001. Has the possibility of getting relief made them stay on in the trade 
 of shipwrights ? No. It is because they have not known what to do or where 
 to go. 
 
 2002. (Dr. Longstaff) : Do you know whether there is any difference of 
 wages at the different ports ? Some of the very small ports have very small 
 money about 5s., I think. 
 
 2003. (Chairman) : Five shillings for ten hours ? I don't know how many 
 hours. In the north, and at Cardiff, and London, and Liverpool it is 7s. 
 Only I heard they have lowered it at Sunderland ; but Liverpool and Cardiff 
 are the same as London.
 
 112 
 
 Mr. G. T. 2004. (Dr. Longdaff) : Some of the places in the north have dropped down 
 
 WESTBKOOK. a little ? Yes ; I think it is 6s. 6d. on the Clyde. 
 
 July 23, 1886. 2005. (Mr. Loch) : You said there were a certain number of men who 
 
 would go away if they could, and some would emigrate. Is there any way of 
 dealing with those ? What class would it be who wish to go and cannot ? Are 
 they men who are too old to go ? Oh, no ; young men. 
 
 2006. Next, as to those who are out of work, but would not emigrate what 
 would you do with them ? What is the cause that they cannot take up another 
 trade I Why they cannot take up any trade is the stagnation. 
 
 2007. These are youngish men ? Yes. 
 
 2008. In a time of distress you say there are two classes the superior class 
 of men who are out of work, and glad to do something, but who would not 
 work in a labour yard ; and those who would rather not work in the labour 
 yard or do work of any other sort. Would you divide them, and give work 
 in the labour yard to some and other work to others? Yes. 
 
 2009. If you wished to give work to the other class, who were (e.g.) ship- 
 wrights, would it be well to give them work which would help to teach them 
 some other trade ? I don't think it would te any good. 
 
 2010. You think there is no choice for them / Any other trade is over- 
 stocked. 
 
 2011. There is no industry which we might do in London whiuh is now done 
 abroad ? Oh, yes. 
 
 2012. Can you name any 1 That is the folly of free trade. 
 
 2013. That is another question. You had great crowds at your office 1 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 2014. Would there be any sort of hardship in having cases sent from certain 
 sources only ? 1 would make the sup^estion that they should come through 
 the trade societies, because our own society can tell exactly the amount of 
 money a man takes in a year ; the secretary by the cards can tell exactly 
 how much work a man has done. He would be able to give you an idea of the 
 amount of work they are doing. He could give you good cases. 
 
 2015. (Mr. Croicder) : And can you depend on the truth of these cards ? 
 
 2016. (Mr. Loch) : Is there any way in which they could be checked ? Yes ; 
 I would say that he should produce a tradesman's reference, and also an em- 
 ployer's reference. Two men may be doing the same amount of work, and one 
 may have a family and the other may have none. 
 
 2017. Would you seek benefit societies' men in the same way ? Yes. 
 
 2018. And in that way you think you would get a pick of cases ? Yes, a 
 better sample than we had at Limehouse. 
 
 2019. (Chairman) : With regard to shipwrights, how is the supply of this 
 skilled labour kept up ? Is a shipwright's son a shipwright ? No, sir, not 
 now. 
 
 2020. Of your own knowledge, within the last ten or twelve years, have 
 many men come from the country and turned to this business ? No, sir. 
 
 2021. You know something of the riveters ? Yes. 
 
 2022. You know a good many men came \ip from Ashford ? Yes. I know 
 a man, a weaver, who is a lirst-rate riveter. Now we see the men's in- 
 dentures. 
 
 2023. And your system of payment through the leading hands makes that 
 sure. Do you take the materials from the hands? No, we take the 
 materials from the foreman. 
 
 2024. But that system of having a leader makes you sure to exclude men not 
 belonging to the trade ? That is not my duty as a committee-man. 1 go and 
 ask a man for his card. If he cannot produce a card, we give notice and he 
 has to leave us. 
 
 2025. What is to prevent your employer keeping him in employment 1 Does 
 that make him go away ? No, not at all. Then we leave. 
 
 2026. (Mr. Loch) : Jn Stepney there is no outdoor relief, and there is no 
 labour yard. You have only the workhouse and the medical relief. Was 
 Stepney worse off this winter than Poplar and Mile End, where there was out- 
 door relief and labour yard ? All this time, with all this distress, was there
 
 113 
 
 no real suffering caused by their having' no outdoor relief ? I don't under- Mr. Cr. T. 
 stand. WKSTBEOOK 
 
 2027. In Mile End there was outdoor relief ; in Stepney there was not. 
 Did the difference of having outdoor relief in one union and not in the other 
 make no difference in the amount of distress ? I am not acquainted with Mile 
 End. I don't know anything of them. 
 
 2028. Take the question apart from the contrast, did outdoor relief make a 
 difference in Stepney ? It would have made the Mansion House Fund better off. 
 
 2029. Would it have made the population better off ? Certainly, it must 
 have done so. 
 
 2030. (Mr. Crowder) : It was the able-bodied men with whom the Mansion 
 House Fund had chiefly to do, not sick cases where outdoor relief is given. 
 Outdoor relief does not touch the able-bodied men, except with the labour test ; 
 it is only the women and the sick people ? I am thinking myself, with those 
 dock labourers, if we had had a labour test with them, many of them would 
 have shirked it. 
 
 2031. Those are the people you would have put into the labour yard if you 
 could '( Yes. 
 
 2032. (Lhairman) : If there had been some outdoor relief you said they 
 would have been, certainly, better off ; is that the opinion of the men, or your 
 opinion ? That is my opinion if they received out-door relief and Mansion 
 House relief as well. 
 
 MR. G. DEW, examined. 
 
 2033. (Chairman) : You live at Camberwell ? Yes. 
 
 2034. What is your trade ? A carpenter. 
 
 2035. What shop or master do you work for ? Mr. Love's, and I was work- Mr - G - r)EW> 
 ing previously for Cubitt's for many years. 
 
 2036. Was there last year an abatement in the demand for employment in 
 your particular industry ? Yes, there was a very great abatement. 
 
 2037. Did wages come down ? No. 
 
 2038. Why, if there was an abatement in the demand for labour, did not the 
 wages come down ? Because the masters of London are different to many 
 masters ; they are very honourable. 
 
 2039. Do you think a grocer who is overstocked with sugar is an honour- 
 able grocer if he won't drop the price because he has too much sugar in his 
 warehouse ? Your idea is that there should be an arbitrary price. I wish I 
 was in these happy circumstances myself. I am a farmer. You think there 
 should be an arbitrary rule with regard to the price of labour ? Most decidedly. 
 We must have a standard for average men. 
 
 2040. Have you been able to keep up the scale of wages ? Yes. 
 
 2041. Has not that been rather at the cost of some of those who were obliged 
 to keep away from work because they could not get what they thought they 
 ought to be paid for their services ? I don't think if the wages had been re- 
 duced it would have brought more work. 
 
 2042. Does that apply to painters as well as joiners ? Yes, I think so. 
 
 2043. My house wants painting, and I have an estimate of the cost of doing 
 it. I am not going to do it. But if people came and offered me to do it for 30 
 per cent, less it might induce me to have it done. When people want a thing 
 done they have it done . 
 
 2044. You found there were less people employed last summer ? More par- 
 ticularly the winter. A severe winter tells worse upon the building trade than 
 any other as regards outdoor work . 
 
 2045. But on your system of payment, if there is any merit in it, I think they 
 should be able to provide in the summer for other times when work is not 
 abundant ? If they can get extra wages we are pleased to see them do it. 
 We are bound to fix an average rate, like the lawyers . We copy them to a. 
 certain extent, though we can't copy them as closely as we should like. 
 
 2046. Though circumstances of trade might induce a rise of wages, you 
 would refuse a rise of wages ; or does the rule apply only to a fall 1 If we 
 thought the rate too low, we should apply to the Masters' Association ; we 
 should try to talk the matter over, and see if we could arrange matters ;
 
 114 
 
 Mr. G. DEW. but if we could not arrange, and still thought we were right, we should give 
 Jn iy 03 18g6 them six months' notice. 
 
 2047. But as to workmen, not so enlightened as yourself, who are inclined to 
 work for less money and there must be some ready to do it if they could get 
 work ? Well, I have had great experience that non-society men seem quite as 
 anxious to get the full money as the others, and the men who will work for 
 the less money are the bad men. 
 
 2048. Leaving that as it is, you find difficulty to get employment for the 
 society men 1 We were more successful with the society men than with those 
 outside. 
 
 2049. And that left you with less of a fund to fall back upon in winter ? 
 We had plenty of funds. I was on the local committee, not the Mansion House 
 Committee Mr. Powell sat on the Mansion House Committee Secretary of 
 the Trades Committee. He was a member of the Mansion House Committee 
 convened by the Lord Mayor. 
 
 2050. Did he think it was a good thing ? He thought it had done a certain 
 amount of good, though we are all doubtful as to the effect in the future. 
 
 2051. Do you think that it was indispensable that you could not have got 
 on without it among the people you are talking of ? I don't say that, but it 
 was a sore pinch, and many men had been pinched so hardly, and had pledged 
 a great many tools, and were not in a position to take work. 
 
 2052. You hear a great deal of the distressed condition and depression of 
 the agricultural labourer. Would you be surprised to hear that there is nothing 
 of this sort known among our people 1 May it not be the fact that the agricul- 
 tural labourer when there is not demand for work goes off elsewhere for other 
 employment ? Do you find an influx of country people now ? Yes, we do. I 
 am a countryman myself. I believe that two-thirds of the carpenters in London 
 are from the country, and the labourers even more than that. A very large 
 number of men come to take work on buildings and the like. 
 
 2053. May it not be owing to the fact, that country people think that London 
 is paved with gold? That is very probable. 
 
 2054. Would this not be increased by a distribution of a Mansion House 
 Fund ? It may be so. 
 
 2055. That. if the Lord Mayor should not have the Mansion House Fund 
 next winter, and that it should be illegal to have money in that way, would 
 that keep the extra hands from coming up ? It woxild have a good effect in that 
 respect, and some may be expecting, and not making the same savings as 
 before. 
 
 2056. You, as I think, mean that it may operate to prompt a man not to 
 put his best leg first ? I have that fear. 
 
 2057. And though it may have been of some service in former cases, would 
 you say that the operative does not derive, as a class, the benefit from such an 
 attempt to relieve them 1 I don't think he does. 
 
 2058. (Mr. Peters) : You have fixed a minimum wage 1 Yes, 9d. per hour, 
 and 52 hours per week. 
 
 2059. (Mr. Hedley) : Have any foreigners come to London as carpenters ? 
 Very few. There are a great many in fancy trades cabinet-makers but very 
 few carpenters ; not for strong constructive work ; they are not up to much. 
 
 2060. What are they chiefly French, German, Swiss? Almost equal 
 between French and German. 
 
 2061. (Zh: Longstaff) : Does your trade suffer greatly from the importation 
 of made up windows and doors ? Not so much as many think. As a rule, I 
 don't think we suffer anything. 
 
 2062. You are free traders there ? We have many fair traders among us, 
 but 
 
 2063. But if a large number of doors and window frames are sent into London 
 must not that cause less work for joiners ? But there are less of these doors in 
 shops than are supposed. Any man in the country who wants a window 
 frame or door, may go to the timber yard and buy it, but as a rule it is not 
 general. 
 
 2064. Is not a good deal of that sort of material used in the inferior firms 1
 
 115 
 
 No, I think not, even in the speculative building. Speculative work is done Mr - u - DKW - 
 piecework, and the men engaged in that line can compete with any foreign juiyl^Tssc. 
 work. 
 
 2065. If there were to be next winter any Mansion House Fund, can you 
 suggest any different way of managing it than that you took last winter ? I 
 should like to see some means of giving employment if it was possible. 
 
 2066. But supposing money was to be distributed, do you see any special 
 defect in the system that was adopted ? No, I think it was as good as could 
 be had I would give relief in money, but in food only when you know them 
 to be drinking people. 
 
 2067. Would it not be as well that the drinking man should go to the work- 
 house ? Yes, but the difficulty is with his wife and children. 
 
 2068. What is your opinion of the state of trade at the present moment 1 
 Are you doing a large amount of work for summer 1 We are beginning to get 
 better now. Up to the present time it has been slack, but we have strong hopes 
 of things improving ; and if it does, which I believe it will all the workmen's 
 trains now coming into the city are very crowded, and that is always a sure 
 indication that trade is improving. 
 
 2069. You don't think there is special fear of impending distress next 
 winter ? No, unless there is severe weather. I don't think there will be any- 
 thing like we had last winter. There is one thing I should like to suggest from 
 the society point of view. Should you decide to use the larger part of the 
 money in finding employment, that it should be done by paying near the 
 average wages, and employing men two or three days a week, and set them 
 free on other days to look after themselves on those other days. 
 
 2070. (Chairman) : Say three days to build and three days to pull down ; 
 it is all raised upon public money given by those who like to give it 1 As far 
 as the society is concerned. The society gives 10s. a week while out of work. 
 If they meet with an accident they give 50. If they are permanently disabled 
 the men get 100. 
 
 2071. (Dr. Longstaff) : There are a large number of carpenters, are there 
 not, in your society 1 A very large number. 
 
 2072. And even a larger number of good workmen who are not society 
 men ? Yes. 
 
 2073. (Mr. Crowder) : In your trade there are a great number of unskilled 
 labourers ? Yes. 
 
 2074. They would be casually employed from time to time ? As a rule they 
 are employed from week to week until they are discharged during the job. 
 
 2075 . They would be a lower class, as a matter of fact. You are aware 
 that for twenty years there has been no Mansion House Fund until last 
 winter 1 Yes. 
 
 2076. Supposing last winter had not been the severe one that you describe 
 it, do you see any greater reason for such a fund as we had last winter than 
 during certain other winters in the last nineteen years ? Well, I think work 
 was very short. The severe weather aside, it was the worst that I remember 
 for depression of trade, and it had been so bad all through the summer that 
 those who were inclined to do the best they could had not the money. We 
 had to have levies on to keep up the funds, and last winter was the first time 
 we had to put levies on to increase the funds. We have had to put levies on 
 for the purpose of keeping them up for unemployed benefit. Is. Qd. a week 
 for a long time. 
 
 2077. Did you not say that, with regard to the undeserving man, you would 
 not object to his going to the poorhouse but "how about his wife and 
 family " 1 Yes. 
 
 2078. Supposing the relief of the wife and family were offered on condition 
 of the man going to the labour yard as a test ? A man is suspected of being 
 given to drink, and we say to him, there are your wife and children ; we should 
 not like to ask them to go to such a place. We will relieve them for a week or 
 two, and we will give you relief, as well as your wife and family, if you will 
 come in. You would throw the burden of the sacrifice upen the man. ' You 
 have nothing to do but to enter, and we will offer your family relief at once ?
 
 116 
 
 r ' ' KW ' It would be a good thing if you could get him to accept the relief on those 
 July 23, 1886. terms. 
 
 2079. (Mr. Edgcombe) : Did you see how the Mansion House Fund was 
 spent last year ? Yes, a little. 
 
 2080. That it did not touch your society ? No, I did not say that. Some- 
 times men have been out so long that they are past our society. For twelve 
 weeks they get 10s. a week, after that, for twelve weeks, 6$. 
 
 2081. So far as you were able to see, did the fund reach the right people ? 
 Yes, I think it did. In Camberwell and that way they were chiefly the building 
 trade that applied. 
 
 2082. Do you think it is at all likely there were high-class artisans whose 
 distress was not found out ? Yes, 1 have heard of 0113 since, a man whose 
 character I can speak to. He is an abstainer. I did not know it then, but it 
 appeared he had sickness and death in his house. He had been eleven weeks 
 out of work. It was his foreman who came and asked me if we could do 
 something for him. 
 
 2083. Can you suggest any means by which these men could be got at ? 
 Only by having working men on the Committee. They are terribly afraid of 
 the parson and the Poor Law guardian. They feel they will be too much 
 humiliated, and will not go. 
 
 2084. (Mr. Allen) : Was that man a carpenter ? No, a plasterer ; but I 
 don't think he was in the society. 
 
 2085. (Mr. Loch) : Do you think that better arrangements could be made 
 for ascertaining the actual condition of affairs in regard to distress 1 Last year 
 there was rather a rush at one part. Would your (society, and the sort of men 
 you have referred to, be willing to let us know how matters stood, so that we 
 might set to work with sobriety, and do it well 1 Our society were very 
 reluctant to let us have anything from this fund, and it has not been well 
 received. We have means to provide for all our hands, and we don't care to 
 have much to do with these Charity Committees. 
 
 2086. There is a distinct difficulty as to knowing what the extent of the 
 distress is. Can you suggest any way of ascertaining ? Would you suggest 
 writing to employers to know the general extent of distress ? You don't want 
 to establish a fund before the time ? I don't know. If you were to send a 
 written intimation round to the secretaries of some of the trade societies they 
 would be able to give you some idea whether their members were very much 
 pinched. If men have a difficulty in paying up their money, they can tell at 
 once what the state of the trade is. 
 
 2087. Did the Mansion House Fund make that inquiry through you ? 
 No. 
 
 2088. Do you think that one could test the matter in this way : by privately 
 asking a few of the leading men in the trade to meet and talk it over ? Yes, I 
 think it would be possible if you wrote to some of the secretaries of different 
 clubs asking them to appoint a representative, and have a meeting somewhere. 
 
 2089. Privately, of course ? Yes. 
 
 2090. With regard to men who have been out of work ; is there any other 
 work to which carpenters could turn if they had instruction, which possibly is 
 not within their reach now fancy work, for instance 1 That is the cabinet 
 work ; that is a distinct branch of itself. 
 
 2091. Would a man in your trade be able to take up the other 1 As a rule 
 that trade is nearly always overstocked. 
 
 2092. There is no other direction you can suggest ? A carpenter can turn 
 his hand many ways, but as a rule, in the cabinet trade, they are worse off 
 than we are. 
 
 2093. Do you know if carpenters emigrate ? Yes, many ; we are evidently 
 a little too thick to do any good. 
 
 2094. Where would you suggest that they could go? We have several 
 branches America, Canada, Australia, the Cape ; and if an offer was made of 
 any considerable amount to them 
 
 2095. Would the societies help by advice to make it work smoothly ? Yes ; 
 we can, even with our own society, if our funds stood at 3 a member we could 
 give a grant of 6, but we have never been able to give that assistance.
 
 117 
 
 2096. (Mr. Allen) : You have never done that yet 1 No. Mr. G. DEW. 
 
 2097. (Dr. Longstaff) : If money were advanced for people to emigrate to 
 the Australian colonies money advanced on loan would the branch of your 
 society in Australia assist to recover that money to assist others ? No ; I don't 
 think we could impose anything like that upon our branch secretaries in the 
 colonies. The people out in the colonies are not anxious to get the colonies 
 overstocked, and that would tell against it. The only way you could do would 
 be to send out bond fide men to act as your agents out there send them out 
 with a gang. 
 
 2098. And you think a man like that would be forthcoming ? Yes, I think 
 Mr. Acworth asked me if I knew anyone likely to go. We sent one man out, 
 and that was one of the best bits of money that we spent. Mr. Acworth 
 wrote to me and suggested a man for emigration if I could name him. We had 
 had a member of our society and other societies a provident man and 
 this man had been in and out of work ; he was a staircase hand, the highest 
 hand of the trade, and he had been fair hard up. He was a widower with four 
 children. He wanted to emigrate ; he could not see a chance of permanent 
 work, and so we got up a concert, and Joseph Lester promised to take the chair ; 
 but it turned out a wet night and we did not clear expenses. Mr. Acworth 
 took the case in hand, and I had a grant of money and sent him to St. Louis, 
 in the United States. And since he has been there, I have heard he is doing 
 well. 
 
 2099. (Chairman) : What employment had he got there ? Carpenter and 
 joiner. 
 
 2100. (Mr. Loch) : You would suggest helping in that big way ? Yes, and 
 by taking tools out of pledge. 
 
 2101. (Mr. Crowder) : Only you must know your case. 
 
 2102. (Mr. Loch) : And if you felt that you were spending in that fashion, 
 much more care would be taken ? Yes. 
 
 2103. That would be a point in any future administration ? Yes. 
 
 2104. Was much given for rent last year 1 Nothing was given for rent in 
 the Camberwell district. 
 
 2105. Would you be inclined to use the Poor Law more in regard to cases 
 that you did not help 2 Would you send the lower class right away to them ? 
 I would if I could. 
 
 2106. You would simply send them ? If they did not go it would be their 
 responsibility ? Yes. 
 
 2107. Did you deal with people who would be out of work every year ? 
 No, we did not deal with them so liberally as with others, when we found 
 they were always asking relief. Some men try to hold on to a trade that has 
 left the country. 
 
 2108. (Chairman) : Now, Mr. Dew, there must be some cause for this distress 
 somewhere or other, and men being in these difficulties. We must admit that 
 all that the Mansion House Fund has done is to deal with the distress itself. 
 It has not concerned itself at all with the cause of the distress. Would you be 
 glad if the effort was made to get rid of the cause of distress by sending some 
 of the people out of the country, or to join a co-operative undertaking? I am a 
 great co-operator distributive co-operation. Is not that what your view is, that 
 the Mansion House Fund has dealt with the distress when it came I You would 
 be pleased to see the money applied to remove the causes by getting rid of 
 surplus population, and by teaching people to help themselves if they could, and 
 you are not satisfied with the Mansion House Fund as an institution ? No, I 
 hope people will not anticipate it. 
 
 2109. Do you think it would be well for us to repeat this caution 1 I think 
 it would be a good thing if something could be issued in the shape of a warning 
 not to expect charity next year. 
 
 2110. (Mr. Crowder) : And the more quietly the thing could be done the 
 better. The publishing of it in the papers is, you will agree, an evil. If it 
 could be done through existing societies you would approve of that way of 
 doing it ? But I think people have not got confidence in these private societies. 
 But if you could get a few working men to sit upon the Committees in each 
 
 K
 
 Mr. G. DEW. 
 
 July 23, 1886. 
 
 118 
 
 branch of the Society, it would have a good effect and give greater confidence 
 all round. 
 
 2111. (Chairman) : You would like to see the best men in the masses shake 
 hands with the best men in the classes 1 Yes. 
 
 2112. (Mr Hedley) : To what age do you allow a workman an out-of-work 
 allowance of 10s. a week ? As long as he is earning full money at his trade, 
 and after that they have to go on the superannuation fund. 
 
 2113. I belong to the Hearts of Oak, who give 4s. a week superannuation. 
 We take very little part in the management of the Hearts of Oak. 
 
 2114. (Chairman) : Do you think that speculative building is pulling up a 
 little in London now ? No, I don't think it is. 
 
 2115- You think they are going on with it now ? Oh, yes, but nothing like 
 it was. We think we make a little start, but street improvements will account 
 for it. 
 
 2116. Is it the case that in certain towns Leicester, for instance that 
 building is going on with great rapidity, and there is a great demand for work- 
 people 1 No, we get reports of the state of trade all through England, 
 United States, and Colonies. I don't know, except in the Colonies and States, 
 where there is any demand for labour. All through England the return for 
 trade this present month is bad. In one or two places they are fairly employed 
 but the general run is bad. 
 
 (The Committee then adjourned.) 
 
 Mr. M. 
 STEPHAXY. 
 
 July 27, 1880. 
 
 TUESDAY, JULY 27, 1886. 
 
 Present MR. J. H. ALLEN, in the Chair. 
 
 Rev. BROOKE LAMBERT, Mr. PETERS, 
 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 MR. M. STEPHANY, examined. 
 
 2117. (Chairman) : You are a member of the Jewish Board of Guardians 
 the secretary 1 Yes. 
 
 2118. Where do they meet ? 13 Devonshire Square, Bishopsgate. 
 
 2119. Have you any other place of meeting ? No, sir. 
 
 2120. You are secretary, and deal entirely with the Jewish population ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2121. How are the cases brought before you in the same way as before an 
 ordinary Board of Guardians ? Yes. 
 
 2122. Who makes inquiries ? The secretary and investigation officers. 
 Applications are received by the secretary. 
 
 2123. How are they received ? Three times a week. 
 
 2124. Do they apply to the investigation officer i No ; they apply to the 
 secretary at stated times. 
 
 2125. And then what is the form of proceeding ? D<> you take down their 
 cases 1 We take down their cases if they are known. If they are not known, 
 they have a form of application which they have to till up. 
 
 2126. What is the nature of your inquiry ( Is it a very strict inquiry, or 
 are you satisfied with mere outward details ? Do you go very closely into the 
 past history of the applicants ? Yes, as far as we can. 
 
 2127. (Mr. Loch) : Have you a form of application with you ? Yes 
 (producing one), That is the first application form. 
 
 2128. (Chairman) : Well, then, all these questions being answered, are they 
 brought before you or before the Committee ? Beforo the Committee. It is 
 returned to me, and then handed to the investigating officer for inquiry, and 
 brought before the Committee, which sits twice a week, except under exceptional 
 circumstances.
 
 119 
 
 2129. Who is the Relief Committee composed of 1 All the members of the "> M. 
 Jewish Board, thirty-nine in number, who are elected annually. Part are s-n-:nr.\.xY. 
 elected bi-annually from the United Synagogue. We receive a quota from the July -:;, ISM. 
 United Synagogue, and they have the power to send a certain number of 
 delegates that are elected annually by the subscribers. 
 
 2130. You have a permanent chairman ? Yes, Mr. Lionel Louis Cohen, M.P. 
 He has been chairman for a long time for the past ten or twelve years. He 
 was the first honorary secretary in 1859. 
 
 2131. How long have you been secretary ? Nine years, but I have been in 
 the office twenty years. 
 
 2132. During the last winter did you find there was exceptional distress . 
 among the Jews ? Yes. 
 
 2133. Was it exceptional distress ? Exceptional distress. 
 
 2134. Brought on by what ? By lack of work, I think. 
 
 2135. In that particular part of London where the Jews congregate ? In 
 the East End, where most of the poorer Jews reside. 
 
 2136. I believe most of their occupation is that of tailoring ? Tailoring, 
 bootmaking, cabinet-making, hawking ; a great many trades, which you will see 
 here from the annual report (produced). They comprise a very large number. 
 
 2137. And you found there was distress last winter '? Yes. 
 
 2138. Have you any of course you have a good many skilled artisans 
 was there any distress among them 1 -Well, we had a larger number of skilled 
 artisans than before, but not very large. 
 
 2139. And were you able to deal with all the cases satisfactorily 1 Yes, we 
 were. 
 
 2140. That is temporarily relieved them 1 We relieved them temporarily. 
 
 2141. I think you had some assistance from the Mansion House Fund / 
 Yes, we received 1,100. 
 
 2142. And do you think that was a very great benefit to the poor of your 
 persuasion ? Yes, I do. 
 
 2143. It did a great deal of good ? I think it did. 
 
 2144. It did not do more harm than good ? In some cases perhaps it did. 
 It brought a great many new cases to us. 
 
 2145. From the East End especially, or from all parts of London ? From the 
 East End especially. 
 
 2146. Do you from your knowledge of the work in the East End of London 
 expect that next winter will be better or worse than last 1 As far as I see, I 
 don't think we shall have so bad a winter, because trade is looking up. As far 
 as my knowledge goes, we are not receiving such a large number of applications 
 from working men as we did at this time last year ; that therefore leads me to 
 suppose that things will go on a little better. 
 
 2147. That is very satisfactory. Supposing there had been no Mansion 
 House Fund, what should you have done ? Should you have been able to meet 
 the distress 1 We should have issued another appeal to our community. Of 
 course the funds of the Board are very limited ; we can only work from year 
 to year. 
 
 2148. Is the money collected then in the synagogues, or by general sub- 
 scription ? An appeal is sent round to the Jewish community. 
 
 2149. And it is always pretty liberally responded to I We must not 
 grumble, although it will be seen from our list that we get almost from the 
 same people over and over again. 
 
 2150. Supposing you had" not had this '1,100, you would have had to appeal 
 to the community ; and if the money had not come in, should you have referred 
 them to the Poor Law ? We could not ; there is no outdoor relief. 
 
 2151. But supposing they are chronic cases of people who are always out of 
 work between January and March, should you have recommended them to go 
 to the parish ? No, I don't think we should. We never do. We always look 
 after the Jewish poor. We certainly should not turn them away to the parish, 
 whatever the consequences might be. 
 
 2152. What were those cases refused for 178 against 3, 000 odd? Because 
 we found they were not cases worthy to be relieved. 
 
 K2
 
 120 
 
 BixrauiT. ^153. (Mr. Loch) : They are very few I That is, totally refused, not 
 
 receiving any kind of relief. 
 
 July 27, 1886. 2154. (Chairman) : Do you relieve them in kind or money ? Kind and 
 
 money. 
 
 2155. Do you give them any other kind of relief, such as sending children 
 to school? There are such cases ; e.g., cases of orphans or deserted children,. 
 if the parents cannot be traced in any way. 
 
 2156. Do you ever adopt the boarding-ont system ? We have a few ; those 
 who cannot be sent to the Jewish schools. 
 
 2157. Do you find that works well ? Yes ; we have not very many. 
 
 2158. Would you board out among people in the country ? We do not. 
 In London they are only generally temporary cases, until we can trace the 
 parents. If they are orphans, we send direct to the orphan school. 
 
 2159. But in these cases of desertion you do not always find the parents ? 
 I am very pleased to say we have not so many cases of the children deserted. 
 We have wife desertion ; but it is hardly in the sense of the word ' desertion.' 
 The wife is left here and the man goes abroad, and eventually the wife is sent 
 out to him. They are all classed as deserted wives, because they have only 
 what they get from us. On page 78 ' the Emigration Committee ' you will 
 see that twenty-three wives who had been deserted have now joined their 
 husbands, with seventy-nine children. 
 
 2160. Of course your organisation is very complete, only you have fewer 
 people to deal with than we have 1 I think I may say our organisation is quite 
 complete. 
 
 2161. These cases that you have emigrated, are they all doing well? Yes r 
 very well. We give them a printed form, asking them certain questions, which 
 we ask them to return within two months after their arrival in the States or 
 Austraia. These are returned to us ; and those returned are certainly very 
 satisfactory ; and we are in communication with the United Hebrew Charities 
 of New York. They act as correspondents, and we hear a favourable account 
 of those who go out. They are cases which are improved by emigration, all 
 able-bodied persons and mechanics ; and with each shipment a list is sent out 
 to our correspondents on the other side. 
 
 2162. Have you ever emigrated any people on loan, asking them to repay 
 back the money ? We tried that, but it did not answer. In this form we tell them 
 it is expected that, if they succeed, they should return the assistance they 
 receive. One case in Australia we have received something back, and we are 
 in anticipation of receiving the whole amount. The case will be marked in red 
 letters in our books. 
 
 2163. One more question. Referring back to the Mansion House Fund, 
 should you recommend, in case of any exceptional distress should you recom- 
 mend a Mansion House Fund to be raised on the same principle as the last ? 
 I think not. 
 
 2164. (Rev. Brooke Lambert) : What is the average attendance of guardians ? 
 The attendance of the Relief Committee is taken by rota. The Relief Com- 
 mittee sit every Monday and Thursday. 
 
 2165. Is the Chairman there ? No ; he takes his turn with the others. 
 
 2166. The personal relief will depend on you more than on the members I 
 Well, the registers are always opened. We have our books in alphabetical 
 order, and as each case comes in, full particulars are at the sight of the 
 Committee at once. 
 
 2167. Do you relieve a large number the same people year after year ? 
 Yes, a very large number. 
 
 2168. Is the purpose of your relief to help their misery, or to try to make 
 them independent of you ? Certainly to tiy to make them independent. I 
 refer to people 
 
 2169. What of those cases helped from year to year for many years ? They 
 would be widows and chronic cases of sickness, and so forth. I was going to- 
 refer to page 60. 
 
 2170. What is your average expenditure in relief a year ? About 12,000 in 
 relief of all kinds.
 
 121 
 
 2171. I suppose that is 1 That is in shape of loans, sewing machines, 
 
 apprenticeship. 
 
 2172. What do you think was the percentage of relief this winter above July 2: 
 an ordinary winter ? Well, fully 25 to 30 per cent. 
 
 2173. (Mr. Loclt) : In your community alone ? 
 
 2174. (Rev. Brooke Lambert) : Were the applications very much larger after 
 the Mansion House Fund was started ? Yes, we had a very lax-go number. 
 
 2175. And I suppose some would have got it who would not have got it another 
 year I No ; every case was investigated first. I must tell you a very large 
 number of cases applying for the Mansion House Fund were refused a very 
 large number. 
 
 2170. Do you know what was the percentage of rejections ? I could let you 
 have it accurately by-and-by. I should not like to give it from memory. 1 
 have the correct figure at the office. 
 
 2177. In relieving these chronic cases of poverty, how much do you think 
 would be a proper allowance for a single woman ? As for a man and woman, 
 what is your scale of relief 1 We have no scale ; we know them. According to 
 the circumstances of the case. 
 
 2178. What do you consider a person can live on 7s. a week a woman ? 
 The Board would not give a single case 7s. a week, because there ara so many 
 other societies among the Jews in which a widow would receive a pension. The 
 Board would not grant 7s. a week to a single case. 
 
 2179. You know all the other societies that are relieving ? Yes, we are in 
 communication with them all. 
 
 2180. A man and wife together ? What the Board would give ? The Board 
 would give, perhaps, 5s. or (js. a week, part in kind and part in money. We 
 make distinction in this way. If a case is out of the radius of the Society's 
 books (our tickets are by contract), and if they are living out of the district, 
 then we would give cash. Or, in a very decent case, where money would be 
 better for them, we give cash. We have a special committee called for con- 
 venience the Investigation Committee. The case is recommended by the 
 Relief Committee, and they go into it more particularly, the case being visited 
 by an honorary visitor, who has that case under his charge for some years. 
 
 2181. And gives the money himself I Oh, no ; all moneys are paid at the 
 office of the Board. 
 
 2182. Do you find any feeling on the part of your better artisans that they 
 would object to coming to your office? We find the better class of artisans 
 Avill keep away from charity as long as they possibly can. 
 
 2183. You never knew of a case in which having to appear before the 
 Jewish Board of Guardians prevented a man from applying ? No, J/ecause his 
 case would he brought before us indirectly. . 
 
 2184. And they don't lose caste ? Oh, no. 
 
 2185. You talked about the wife being sent to the husband was that at 
 your cost or their cost ? Partly at our cost. We require the husband to find 
 part, say half of the passage money. If he cannot pay the moiety, but can pay 
 it within a pound or two, they will always lend a hand where the husband is 
 willing to receive his wife and children. 
 
 2186. Have you ever S3nt them out when the husband contributed nothing 
 at all ? No. 
 
 2187. You have not found that that has acted badly ? No. 
 
 2188. Then you do a good deal of re-migration, and send a gooJ. many back 
 to their own country ? Yes, a large number. 
 
 2189. What proportion do you send back every year? You will see on 
 page 33. In 1885 there were 583 sent back to the Continent. 
 
 2190. Do you know whether you sent more back last winter ? Yes ; 
 evidently by the statistics we sent 41 more. 
 
 2191. But that would not give the spring of this year ? No : this is to the 
 close of 1885. I don't think that we had an influx of foreign poor owing to 
 this fund. 
 
 2192. No, I did not think of that. What I was wanting to know, how far 
 the number of those sent back would tell of the extreme distress ? 583 last
 
 122 
 
 Mr. M. year, against 542 in 1884 ; 419 in 1883, and 451 in 1882. That is 130, in three 
 STKI-HAXY. years, increase. 
 
 July 27, 1886. 2193. But the distress was not felt here so badly in December as it was in 
 
 February. I did not know whether you knew there was a greater number in 
 1885 ? Yes, there was. That was owing to the law enacted in Germany 
 expelling all the Poles and Russians from Prussian territory. That caused a 
 great increase ki immigration. Some had left Poland twenty-five years ago, and 
 being aliens, they were expelled, and where we could induce them to return we 
 got them to go back, but where they had left to avoid the military service, we 
 could not do it. Most of them were very respectable cases. 
 
 2194. Should you say that the fact of its being known that you send people 
 back to their own country tended to make them come over to England for a 
 chance of work ? No, I think it acts the other way. We don't know how 
 many we send back on that account. We only send them, as a rule, as far as 
 Hamburg, and they have to travel back to Russia, which is a very long way. 
 In exceptional cases we certainly do defray the cost. 
 
 2195. You do defray the cost ? When it is a special case 
 
 2196. Did you use work as a test in giving relief 1 No. 
 
 2197. You never do ? No, we have not the means. 
 
 2198. Your sewing machines would be another way of doing it not even in 
 a time of pressure like last winter ? We did not feel the need ; but we had not 
 the machinery. 
 
 2199. (Chairman') : Supposing you had the machinery, do you think it would 
 be a good thing ? Yes ; in some cases. 
 
 2200. (Mr. Peters) : Do you include the children of widows left ? Would you 
 send the widows' children to your schools ? No ; we would be sending them 
 there under the Pauper Removal Act. We generally make them an allowance. 
 Those fixed allowances are brought before the Committee periodically. 
 
 2201. The correspondents in America, do you pay them ? Oh, no. 
 
 2202. How long would the weekly allowances last as long as the children 
 are not earning money ? Yes. 
 
 2203. And where able-bodied men come, how long would the weekly allow- 
 ance be ? Able-bodied men as a rule do not receive weekly allowances. If 
 we gave it for two weeks, you would not call that a weekly allowance. We bring 
 them constantly before the Relief Committee, and their case is considered. 
 
 2204. You have assisted by way of loan, do you get the loans repaid ? Very 
 fairly ; we have a paid collector for that object. 
 
 2205. (Mr. Loch) : Do you think it would be as well in a future year for the 
 Board to combine with other charities to prevent overlapping, to meet the 
 difficulty of exceptional distress better ? Yes, I think so. 
 
 2206. In that case what has hitherto been done ? Other Christian charities 
 would refer their cases to you ? Yes. 
 
 2207. Do you find that there are a certain number the lowest fringe 
 who try to make money out of both the Christian and Jewish ? Very few indeed. 
 
 2208. Do you find that the plan of investigation that you adopted last year 
 on those forms was sufficient ? Yes. 
 
 2209. Did you have a large crowd ? Yes. 
 
 2210. How many in a single morning at the most crowded time ? Well, I 
 suppose between 300 and 400. 
 
 2211. How many men did you put on to make the investigation ? Three ; 
 we had no volunteers. Those cases that were immediately known to us (I am 
 taking all the cases together), would not require investigation, where others 
 would require investigation. 
 
 2212. Because you happened to know some and not others ? Yes. 
 
 2213. The employers you did not refer to ? That inquiry was made by the 
 investigating officer. 
 
 2214. Was that made in every case that you did not already know this 
 winter ? Yes. 
 
 2215. Was it useful ? In some cases. 
 
 2216. It was worth making ? Oh, yes. 
 
 2217. Did you pay rent ? In very few cases, because our rule at the Board
 
 123 
 
 it is not written law we make it a rule ; we say we will not pay rent because it 
 holds out an inducement for landlords to let people get into arrears. 
 
 2218. As a matter of fact, I suppose a proportion went in rent if the people 
 were hard up ? No doubt. We gave a great deal of relief in kind from the 
 Mansion House Fund in chronic cases. Where we had a doubt, we would 
 apportion the relief out in kind. 
 
 2219. The better your inquiry, the less the need for relieving in kind ? 
 certainly. 
 
 2220. Practically you exclude no class of cases ? No. 
 
 2221. Take out-of-work cases, do you find that you are able to go on helping 
 them 1 Do they come back to you ? They come back perhaps every three or 
 four weeks. 
 
 2222. Do those cases recur every winter ? Yes. 
 
 2223. Then you are dealing with a proportion of cases that are out of work 
 in winter ? Yes ; among tailors and shoemakers. There are two months of 
 stagnation. 
 
 2224. Do you ever help them in their trade ? Certainly. 
 
 2225. Did you find you were able to do anything in that direction with 
 this Mansion House money? Yes, in purchasing tools for them. If a man 
 required tools, if he had worked in a shop and had an opportunity of getting 
 work on his own account, we supplied him with tools 
 
 2226. Do they pawn much in your community 1 Yes. 
 
 2227. And I suppose you help them in that way too 1 No, we do not help to 
 take things out of pawn. 
 
 2228 (Mr. Peters) : Why do you not take things out of pawn 1 We do not, 
 because as a rule they would put them back again. 
 
 MR. J. D. POWELL, examined. 
 
 2229. (Chairman) : What are you, Mr. Powell ? A carpenter. M 
 
 2230. Are you the Secretary of the London United Trades Committee of POWELL! 
 Carpenters and Joiners ? I am an operative, and not a paid official. 
 
 2231. You were a member of the Mansion House Committee ? I was. 
 
 2232. And did you attend all the meetings of the Mansion House Com- 
 mittee 1 The whole of them. 
 
 2233. And you acted, in addition to that, as a member of the Holborn 
 Committee ? Yes. 
 
 2234. Did you take an active part ? Yes, as visiting ; but I took the thing 
 more in a general way, and visited different Committees over London. 
 
 2235. What Committees'? Holloway, East End, and Clerkenwell occa- 
 sionally. 
 
 2236. You went for the purpose of seeing whether the right people were 
 working ? Yes ; and if I could have spared the time I should have spent the 
 whole of my time in visiting committees. 
 
 2237. What was your opinion of the working of them ? Some of them were 
 working admirably. The only thing I should have liked to have altered was 
 the form, which should have been made out more concisely. They should be 
 asked what people had endeavoured to do in the past for themselves ; whether 
 they had joined a society, or a club, or a penny bank a thing like that so as 
 to produce some proof that they had endeavoured to help themselves. 
 
 2238. Should you have said that the general people that applied were 
 artisans, or were they the chronic labourers always out of work in the winter? 
 I should like to know what I am to understand by the word 'chronic.' Do you 
 mean the men who are periodically out of work, or those who are lazy and 
 habitually out of work ? 
 
 2239. I mean the class of people who are always out of work between 
 January and March like a painter. -Yes. 
 
 2240. Then the bricklayer, who is always thrown out of work in a frost ? 
 Would you include cases of that description ? 
 
 2241. I think I should, certainly ; but that is only a private opinion. Taking
 
 124 
 
 Mr. J. D. the cases of people that you know, were they first-class workmen that applied 
 
 POWKLL. first-class carpenters and joiners? I think the joiners and carpenters were 
 
 July 27, 1886. conspicuous by their absence. We make a point of looking after our own men. 
 
 My object was to secure the money going into some right direction that some 
 
 of it should benefit deserving cases. 
 
 2242. Should you have known anything about carpenters who did not 
 belong to your society? Certainly. 
 
 2243. Did many such apply? A vast number. 
 
 2244. Should you call them respectable working men artisans ? Yes. 
 
 2245. Why is it that they don't belong to your society? I could not tell 
 you. A good many do not care to make any .provision at all. Most of them 
 pay from 2s. to 2s. 6d. a week to trade and benefit societies to make some 
 provision. 
 
 2246. And do you think the Mansion House Fund benefited that class of 
 carpenter you speak of those who do not belong to your society ? Oh, yes ; 
 it benefited that class and also a few members. There are four carpenters' 
 societies. Even with our rules, which are carefully drawn up, you cannot make 
 anything to meet such a pressure. 
 
 2247. Supposing there had been no Mansion House Fund last winter, what 
 would they have done? I cannot tell you. We should not have assisted them. 
 Why should we ? Unfortunately we had a most unprecedented number of our 
 own members out 4,000 men. That never took place before. We had a 
 special levy to meet it. Each member of the 30,000 members paid 7s. 6d., 
 besides Is. a week. 
 
 2248. So that you could not have assisted any others? We did get 30,000 
 seven and sixpences. 
 
 2249. Do not the working men assist each other very much when they are 
 out of work, in distress? I am not speaking of men in your society. Well, I 
 believe they do, but I do not know much on that point ; for I never subscribe to 
 anything of that kind myself. I think it should be done through the general 
 society. 
 
 2250. Then I understand it is your opinion that that distress was excep- 
 tional last winter? Unquestionably. 
 
 2251. Do you find any signs of improvement at the present time? Cer- 
 tainly ; the number of unemployed is not so bad as it was last winter ; but it is 
 worse now than it has been for many winters. 
 
 2252. Do you see no sign of improvement ? No, the decline has been 
 gradual for seven years. 
 
 2253. Now, Mr. Powell, what would be your idea of a remedy for such a 
 state of things ? It is gradually getting worse and worse. There must be more 
 carpenters in London than are wanted ? But it applies to everything else. 
 That applies to the depression of trade ; when it gets to the lowest point it 
 revives. 
 
 2254. As to whether these men would have emigrated if it had been put to 
 them?- 1 believe they would. I think it is the best and most thrifty men 
 that emigrate. You see if a man gets down to a certain point he is very little 
 good for emigration, because he gets weak in physique, and his mind gets 
 distracted, and he is not a useful subject to emigrate. 
 
 2255. That might be after a couple of years, but not in three months. 
 Quite so, but I have known this last winter ; we have had men out of work who 
 were never out of work before. 
 
 2256. Then do you think that these cases ought to have been assisted by 
 the charitable public w r hen they are out of work ? I should not make any 
 proposal to assist a man unless he had tried to assist himself anything if he 
 could only show me an old bank book. I think one of the best references I 
 had was a bank book, which showed how carefully he had worked, and how 
 he had dribbled out his savings to meet his necessities. 1 should consider that 
 quite sufficient. 
 
 2257. What would you do with the others who had not made provision ? 
 I should let them go to the Poor Law. It seems to be formed to meet their 
 case. But I would not do it if he hal made the smallest provision for himself.
 
 125 
 
 I have no feeling with the society business. 1 should never ask' a man to join Mr. j. r>. 
 it. I should consider I was doing him a favour by taking him into it. 1 should POWELL. 
 be sorry to see the Mansion House Fund got up periodically. j u i y 3", IH>SB. 
 
 2258. Do you think it did more harm than good ? No, I would not say 
 that, but I believe in many cases it was the actual cause of harm, and a large 
 class were relieved who should not have been relieved. 
 
 2259. Supposing that the plan was adopted of having Committees in every 
 Union next winter, do you think your societies would join the Committees? 
 No, sir. 
 
 2260. Why not ? Well, you see I would rather give you a qualified answer 
 to your question. I think our leading men would aid in anything, but you 
 must not expect a society to take official cognisance of anything in the charity 
 way. As individuals they would serve, and give you good advice. 
 
 22G1. That would be useful. But you as an official would not sit on a 
 Committee. Only as an individual. I have come across several cases. I have 
 gone and got tools out of pawn, and I have found them quite insufficient to 
 enable a man to get a living. 
 
 2262. That would be from want of knowledge of the Committee. I have 
 remedied that, by telling the Committee what he would want to make him self- 
 supporting by setting him up again. In that way we have been the source of 
 permanent benefit to a man. 
 
 2263". (Rev. Brooke Lambert) : You distinguished between periodical and 
 chronic want in certain trades that have periodic want, like painters and 
 bricklayers ? You think that in the event of the establishment of a fund in 
 the future, they should have relief when they have been earning good wages 
 in the summer? Do you look upon them as entitled to relief in the same sense 
 as other people ? Oh, no. 
 
 2264. You thought Mr. Allen was rather hard ? No. I wanted to under- 
 stand what was the meaning of the word 'chronic. ' I should get practical people 
 to look into the cases and say whether they were proper cases or not. 
 
 2265. You would say that a man disabled by want was entitled to relief ? 
 A man must expect to get old he must provide for that by the superannua- 
 tion fund. Every man can do something to help himself. 
 
 2266. Could you help us at all as regards a labour test 1 In the first place, 
 do you think that a good class of workmen would accept a labour test ? No ; 
 emphatically no. 
 
 2267. Would he receive it as charity, as a gift, when he would not receive 
 it as payment for work ? I don't say they would not receive it. I have found 
 extreme difficulty in persuading people to let me interest myself, and I have 
 had the aid of certain Committees in helping these cases. 
 
 2268. Then as regards these semi-respectable cases, half shiftless and half 
 good, how about the labour test ? You would have to do something. If you had 
 some good Committees you would have some practical knowledge of the trade. 
 A carpenter is not like a clerk. He only goes where they have work to do. A 
 man takes a job, and when it is over he goes somewhere else, and they get a 
 thorough good knowledge, as a rule, of people in the society and people out of it. 
 
 2260. Do you think that emigration is in any instance a remedy for the 
 evils of the want of work ? Yes. If you could get a proper place to go to : State- 
 directed emigration I should like to see. 
 
 2270. How long do you think that would last as a remedy, if you thought 
 of emigrating to Canada or Australia ? No, I think the remedy is in another 
 quarter the population question. 
 
 2271. Emigration is not a final remedy ? No, things are very good in 
 Australia, but emigration is only a temporary remedy. 
 
 2272. Now I want to follow out that point about clubs. I sent round at 
 Greenwich as to the club, and I could not get any cases to relieve. The Odd 
 Fellows and the Foresters told me of one or two doubtful cases, that the Sec- 
 retary would write to me about afterwards, but I never heard of them. Your 
 clubs always help them as far as possible ? Yes, as far as possible, if they can 
 be shown to have tried to pay. I have heard of a case of a gardener asked, 
 ' Why do you not belong to anything?' He said he did, but he got hard up and
 
 Mr. J. D. did not pay up. That must have been wrong, because the clubs have the power, 
 UWEU " and do frequently vote money, to pay arrears. There is generally a little fund 
 July 27, 1886. of that sort. 
 
 2273. The fact of the establishment of a fund, or the recurrence of the 
 establishment of a fund like the Mansion House Fund, would have a tendency 
 to make people crowd to London to get it I I am afraid they could not crowd in 
 greater numbers than they do now. 
 
 2274. Was there a Mansion House Committee at West Ham ? It applied 
 for a further grant. Would you have granted it ? I think you will remember 
 I spoke against it. 
 
 2275. Oh, it was you ? You could not compare distress now with distress 
 in the winter. Even privations are not so bad in warm weather as they are in 
 the cold. 
 
 227(5. There is a good deal of strong feeling against the Charity Organisation 
 Society among the better class of workmen. Do you think there is more feeling 
 against that than against other charitable societies ? Yes, I think so ; it is only 
 on the principle of give a dog a bad name. 
 
 2277. You have not come across instances yourself ? Oh, yes. Dismissing 
 cases too quickly, and prosecuting too close and too particular inquiries instead 
 of assisting. But I would not say that that is a general thing. 
 
 2278. (Mr. Peters) : In out-of-work cases where there is no thrift, would 
 you think it a hard thing to offer a man to keep his family if he went into the 
 workhouse ? I don't think you can make any such stipulation as that. 
 
 2279. The objection to the workhouse is that you break up the home ; but 
 with regard to a test that he should go into the workhouse for a few days, is 
 that a great hardship ? I should not like to give an opinion. I should blame 
 the man who did it. There are men who are so unthrifty, that it is bad. But 
 I think the best way is to weigh and take each case on its merits. 
 
 2280. How would you deal with such cases then ? I think you ought to 
 take a case with its surroundings. I am afraid you could not lay down any 
 rule. 
 
 2281. You think it would be hard to lay down a rule to offer a man the 
 house ? He must do something ; he must not expect his neighbours to keep 
 him. 
 
 2282. Has it ever occurred to you whether or not these periodical occur- 
 rences of distress are caused by our industrial arrangements, the way labour is 
 worked by capital ? It may be, but I don't think you can investigate that. 
 
 2283. (Mr. Locli) : With regard to one inquiry. Did you apply in any way 
 in this last year the system which you have more or less indicated in regard to 
 proof of any degree of thrift on the part of applicants 1 As far as possible I did, 
 and I had been in hopes that that would have come out with the final statement 
 of the Mansion House Fund. 
 
 2284. It was done, but more or less informally ? Yes. 
 
 2285. There were large crowds at the door sometimes ? Yes. 
 
 2286. Do you think that there might be any system by which cases should 
 be sent by people who already know them as friendly society's men, so that we 
 might reduce the crowd in that way ? Yes, I think something might be done in 
 that way, if you were not to draw a hard-and-fast line. 
 
 2287. But still you think something might be done ? Taking the districts you 
 know best, you could lay your hands on twenty or thirty men whose word would 
 be worth having as to cases ? Oh, yes. The whole of the secretaries except 
 three of the Carpenters' Societies signified their willingness to serve on 
 Committees. 
 
 2288. If these men had been the introducers of cases, we might have got a 
 good class of cases, and a certain amount of information ? Yes ; if local workers 
 had welcomed working men instead of choking them off. The first time I 
 went to a Committee they tried to choke me off ; but I am not easily choked off. 
 At the first Committee I went to there were five clergymen, two Catholic 
 priests, and four guardians. They looked at me as if I was going to garrott 
 them. 
 
 2289. Do you think that there are plenty of workers in the districts who
 
 127 
 
 would be available, or would it have to be re-done ? At any future time there Mr. J. D. 
 
 must be some central fund, and it must be done irrespective of this society or POWELL. 
 
 any other ; but don't appeal to the heads of any societies in the first place. The July 7 issc 
 
 best way to do it is to get lists of officials of all the societies, and invite each one. 
 
 You would then get plenty of Committee men known, reliable men. Very 
 
 nearly 100 volunteered this time. In one case, that of a secretary of twenty-five 
 
 years' standing, they did not tell him the Committee that he should have served 
 
 on till they sent him a post-card, saying that there was to be a meeting, 
 
 which would possibly be the last : they kept him waiting three weeks. I won't 
 
 say it was a general thing, but there was a disposition, when people were 
 
 willing to serve, to choke them off ; and in some cases they were successful. 
 
 2290. Do you think that you could rely upon inquiries made by men work- 
 ing men, and so on ? Ordinarily, do you think that they would know so much 
 as to be able to speak of a case so that you might rely upon it ? Yes ; they 
 would probably recommend cases that your system of investigation would 
 reject. 
 
 2291. I am taking your own standard of what is required in the matter of 
 thrift ? Just so. 
 
 2292. The condition of success would be arrangement, and plenty of 
 time 1 Quite so. 
 
 2293. With regard to periodic cases, would it be fair and right to make an 
 arrangement by which those of the reckless sort should be sent to a labour 
 yard, and if work is wanted for others it should be supplied by such an 
 Association as the Public Gardens Association ? It might be done in some 
 cases, but you would have to consider the class of calling, like clerks ; what 
 condition would a clerk's hands be in afterwards ? The jewellers and Clerken- 
 well men, they would ruin the fine touch of their fingers. The same thing would 
 occur with violinists. It would be quite useless to put men like that to a labour 
 test. 
 
 2294. Excepting those, there would be a residue that you could so help ; 
 would you keep them distinct ? Yes. 
 
 2295. Would you pay them at the rate of 4d per hour ? I should pay them 
 at the full price, and employ them half the time. I should give them the exact 
 usual price, and give them half the time. I should rather say five hours a day, 
 so that they might go and earn five hours' wages and have five hours to look for 
 employment. Otherwise I am quite certain that there will be a tremendous 
 storm if a large fund is got up if labour at 4d. an hour is carried on to any 
 great extent. Lord Brabazon and Lord Dorchester's associations there are a 
 certain lot of nondescript men they are not bricklayers' labourers, and I don't 
 think it did much harm ; but if you are going to spend money, give the men 
 proper money, and have proper men to do the work. I am afraid you would 
 not get any of the best class to take d. an hour. 
 
 2296. As to another form of work, do you think that anything can be done 
 in the direction of putting men on to work which would be useful to them in 
 their own trades, but possibly in some kindred branch, or higher branch, work 
 that would be educational ? I take it that a man may have three weeks out, 
 and he might learn something that is useful to him in that time ? Would you 
 give him some payment for it ? 
 
 2297. Oh, yes. I think in all cases of payment you should get something 
 for your money. 
 
 2298. I think it should be educational and not directly valuable, and it 
 would be relief in a special form. You would teach a man something higher in 
 taking up other branches of the work than that he had been doing. 
 
 2299. Suppose you had a gasfitter who could not do the turning ? Yes. 
 
 2300. And then he could turn his hand to several things ? Yes. 
 
 2301. If that was feasible, you would approve of it I Yes. 
 
 2302. Do you think that there is any chance of any new employment being 
 introduced into London as an alternative to emigration ? Do you see any 
 remedy in the shape of other employment 1 No. I can't say that I can answer 
 that question. 
 
 2303. (Rev. Brooke Lambert) : Do you think that at any future Committee if a
 
 128 
 
 Mr. J. D. 
 
 POWELL. 
 
 July 27, 1886. 
 
 committee was started in my neighbourhood should I be doing right to refuse 
 to sit on it 1 No ; certainly not. 
 
 2304. You don't think that there is a general impression abroad on the part 
 of the better class of the poor that the clergy rather give the relief to those who 
 go to church 1 I must say I found a little of the feeling, but I find in a 
 number of instances that the clergyman has come in second and the man has 
 come in first. 
 
 2305. (Chairman) : Then you would recommend that the clergyman should 
 be on the Committee ? Yes. 
 
 2306. You said there were five clergymen and two Roman Catholic priests 
 on one Committee ? It was a large parish. I would have some evening meet- 
 ings and have a larger Committee. Each clergyman and each of the priests 
 had a right to be there, but I would have had the Committee enlarged and 
 extended. It was a mutual admiration society as then constituted. 
 
 2307. How was such a large Committee to work ? By subdivision. 
 
 Mr. A. P. 
 AXDUEWS. 
 
 Ma. A. S. ANDREWS, examined. 
 
 2308. (Chairman) : What are you, Mr. Andrews ? 1 am in a firm of coal 
 merchants. 
 
 2309. What position do you hold ? A subordinate position, under the 
 manager. 
 
 2310. A sub-manager ? Yes. 
 
 2311. Now, do you employ a great many men ? Yes, I think about 50. It 
 varies a little. 
 
 2312. What is the work they do 1 Unloading steam colliers from the 
 north, and loading the coals from the buildings into vans. 
 
 2313. Your firm are not actually coal merchants, are they ? We are 
 properly coal merchants who buy coals in cargoes, and we send them out not 
 only in large wholesale quantities but in as small a quantity as a ton. We 
 have 18 vans and 30 horses. 
 
 2314. Were you able to keep all the men employed last winter ? Yes. 
 
 2315. The whole of them 1 Yes. 
 
 2316. Would it be the same among all coal merchants ? Yes. 
 
 2317. A severe winter would be your harvest? Yes ; I was going to mention 
 that. 
 
 2318. What are the wages those men earn ? The fillers are paid piece-work. 
 Some weeks they could earn 4 each man. The average through the winter 
 would be a little over 3. In the summer they would not earn so much 
 perhaps 2. 
 
 2319. Were any of the men you know of out of work in your trade in last 
 winter? No, we saw no exceptional amount of labour available. We have 
 Ratcliffe and Shadwell to one side of us, and Limehouse on the other. 
 
 2320. Did you have experience of the Mansion House Committee 1 Yes ; 
 a sub-committee. 
 
 2321. Did any coalmen make application for relief? I think not one. 
 There were one or two carmen, but the greater number of those who came up 
 for relief were not skilled artisans. 
 
 2322. So far as your trade was concerned, there was no reason for the 
 Mansion House Fund ? No, certainly not. 
 
 2323. The time of the year that your employes would be out of work would 
 be the summer? Yes ; we try to give them permanent work as much as 
 possible perhaps twenty men may be idle when we are not working cargoes of 
 coal. 
 
 2324. The men who earn 4 a week, do they put by anything ? We have 
 one gang who are thrifty men. 
 
 2325. And another who drink pretty hard ? Yes. 
 
 2326. So far as the trade is concerned, you don't know much about the 
 distress ? Not in my own trade. 
 
 2327. Any other trade ? Only from my experience on the Committee. We
 
 129 
 
 had a very poor district. I was on another Committee Newton Hall Com- Mr. A. s. 
 mittee. We dealt with all classes of cases. ANDREWS. 
 
 2328. What classes were they at Mile End ? They were mostly people whom July 21, issc. 
 you would have got at any time of year. 
 
 2329. You mean dock labourers ? Yes ; and the less competent artisans. 
 
 2330. Do you live down there 1 Yes. 
 
 2331. Was there more distress down there among the other class of work- 
 ing men than you have known before ? Not to any large extent. I could see 
 no signs of anything serious. 
 
 2332. Then there was no occasion, in your opinion, for a Mansion House 
 Fund ? No. 
 
 2333. That was in the Stepney Union ? Yes. 
 
 2334. They do not give outdoor relief ? No. 
 
 2335. And at Stepney you had no labour yard ? No ; the workhouse is at 
 Bromley. 
 
 2330. The class of people that came would be the chronic class of people ? 
 Yes, most of them. 
 
 2337. And they are always out of work from January to March ? Yes. 
 
 2338. That is the only time of the year we have to dread. If we can get 
 over those three months, we are safe for another year? Yes. 
 
 2339. That class of people would you recommend that they should apply 
 to the parish ? Yes, I think they were cases most of them that the parish 
 would relieve. 
 
 2340. And should you agree with the last witness, that only those people 
 should be relieved who have shown some signs of thrift ? Well, I thought it 
 was a thing to be taken into consideration by the Committee signs of thrift ; 
 but I don't know that you should absolutely refuse to help a man if he had not 
 been thrifty. 
 
 2341. In case a man is unthrifty I don't suppose that a man who has been 
 a dock labourer all his life could show any signs of thrift 1 Their work is so 
 precarious that they have not much opportunity. 
 
 2342. Is the trade in Ratcliffe worse now than it has been in years past ? 
 Some trades, certainly. 
 
 2343. Did the substitution of steam for sailing vessels do that ? All persons 
 connected with shipping must have suffered ? Yes, in this neighbourhood. 
 
 2344. Do you know much about the dock labourers ? We have a number 
 of them about us not a great many, but a certain number. Ours is the 
 Regent's Canal Dock. 
 
 2345. Most of these people would have gone to the docks lower down the 
 river, I should imagine 1 Yes, that is their difficulty. They could at one tini3 
 get the labour up here. 
 
 2346. Why don't they go down to Dagenham or Woolwich ? Well, I sup- 
 pose they locate themselves in Ratcliffe, and live in a state of semi-starvation 
 rather than move away. 
 
 2347. Do you come across sailors wanting assistance ? Very few cases. 
 
 2348. Then sailors are pretty well employed ? Yes, I think they are. 
 
 2349. What do you think about next winter ? Do you think there is any 
 chance or probability of an outcry for assistance ? The only thing would be 
 the example of last winter. Trade is going on as it has been two or three years. 
 I think there is a feeling of improvement. 
 
 2350. I think it has been mentioned by other witnesses. 
 
 2351. (Rev. Brooke Lambert) : I don't think I have anything to ask you. 
 Does your trade, though requiring a good deal of strength personally, require 
 very much training ? No. 
 
 2352. Did you use it as a test when these men came before you ? We 
 should have been putting other men out. We have regular men who hold on 
 for us. 
 
 2353. Then your circumstances are quite different to ours at Greenwich. I 
 was told by a coal employer that he had work if we had men to do it. I had 
 the same experience with dock labourers in two or three cases. I arranged for 
 them to go to work with Liverpool steamers, and they did not turn up.
 
 130 
 
 Mr. A. g. (Chairman) : It is rather a difficult thing for a weak man to carry a sack of coals. 
 
 ANDUKW.S (Eev. Brooke Lambert) : The men I sent were giants. 
 
 .inly 27, 188G. 2354. (Mr. Loch) : I want to ask you one or two questions about the 
 
 guardians. Do you think that these dock labourers, of whom you relieved 
 
 many, ought to have been sent to them 1 I think they were proper cases. 
 
 2355. Would you have had the labour yard for them ? I think so. 
 
 2350. In the case of the absolutely thriftless would you make the labour 
 
 yard the ultimate test, or would you make a distinction between the drunken 
 
 and grossly improvident, and be content that they should go there ? I think 
 
 you heard a question asked by Mr. Peters, in which he suggested that a man 
 
 might be referred to the workhouse, and the family kept outside ? Yes ; I think 
 
 that would have been a fair test. I don't like the idea of breaking up the home. 
 
 2357. You would say that charity was undertaking the Poor Law work ? 
 Yes, it was. 
 
 2358. Did you think of getting permanent results from the relief ? We 
 granted a number of sums for taking tools out of pawn and paying up clubs. 
 
 2359. Did anything you gave in the way of relief go in a wrong direction ? 
 We had rather a sentimental Committee, who were anxious to grant as much 
 as possible. That was the great difficulty to contend against. It was thought 
 the public were clamouring for the money to be promptly divided. 
 
 2360. Did you find that the local people on the Committee knew the 
 people ? -Yes. I thought there were too many clergy, and in the case of one 
 or two special cases I thought too many of ' our poor people ' benefited. 
 
 2361. Did you find the employers of labour were on the Committees I No ; 
 I think not in this case. 
 
 2362. Did the local magnates fulfil their local responsibilities ? With the 
 exception of the clergy and one or two guardians, I think not. 
 
 2363. Supposing that there had been no fund, and local people had done 
 their duty, would they have had breadth of back to bear it I I think that half 
 the money would have done all that was useful. 
 
 2364. And that half subscribed locally 1 Yes. 
 
 2365. Did you approve of the plan 1 suggested to one of the witnesses, to 
 have a reference in the first instance to the foremen in workshops as a start ? 
 I think it good. My immediate chief was on the Committee at Ratcliffe. 
 That was a small Committee, but that answered the purpose. 
 
 2366. How did you make inquiry ? Each one of the Committee. I took no 
 inquiry cases. They each visited cases, and reported upon them ; but we had 
 two workmen in our employ, whom we kept to look after their own men 
 in their trade. 
 
 2367. And used these two men to look after the cases of working-men ? Yes. 
 
 2368. Could that system be carried further ? I would not subdivide it too 
 much. They pointed out many cases which we should not have known of 
 otherwise. 
 
 2369. (Chairman) : Would it cut two ways ? Would not these bricklayers 
 be inclined to favour bricklayers who came up for relief ? Yes, they might do 
 that ; we had an eye on that. 
 
 2370. Did you have a reference to employers in all cases ? No. 
 
 2371. That would have been a valuable thing 'I I think it would be. 
 
 2372. Did you apply to relieving officers to prevent overlapping? We had 
 a guardian who took cases to the relieving officer to make inquiry. 
 
 2373. Would you approve of the opening of works in any shape, e.g. by the 
 Public Gardens Association, for the men who ought to be relieved men who 
 would have satisfied inquiries 1 We did that with Stepney churchyard. 
 
 2374. And put on men whom you had inquired about ? Yes, we made 
 some inquiry. 
 
 2375. And parallel with the Stepney churchyard works had you the labour 
 yard ? No. 
 
 2376. Do you think there are cases now which could be dealt with by means 
 of emigration '? I fear that emigration would have been very little good. Very 
 few people that any colony would have made anything of not the sort that 
 Mr. Peters would have asked. 
 
 ('Hie Committee then adjourned.)
 
 131 
 
 FRIDAY, JULY 30, 1886. 
 
 Present MR. A. PELL, in the Chair, 
 
 Hon. and Rev. A. C. STANLEY, Mr. F. J. S. EDGCOMBE, 
 
 Rev. BROOKE LAMBERT, Mr. J. H. ALLEN. 
 
 Mr. E. PETERS, 
 
 Mr. R. HEDLEY, attending on behalf of the Local Government Board. 
 Mr. C. S. LOCH, Secretary. 
 
 MR. NATHAN MOSS (SAUL Moss & SONS, Curtain Road), examined. Mr. y. Moss. 
 
 2377. (Chairman) : Are you connected with the furniture business ? Yes ; July 30> 1886 ' 
 it is conducted very largely in that part of London . 
 
 2378. Does the weather in winter prevent your people working ? Oh, no. 
 
 2379 . Therefore your men are not like bricklayers, for instance, and do not 
 have to lay by in summer owing to their having to leave off in winter from 
 atmospheric causes ? No occasion for that. 
 
 2380. Generally, with respect to 1885, from the beginning to the end of 
 the year, had you found men in your trade poorly employed I Yes . Cabinet- 
 makers were not as well off, I should perhaps say, because they were employed 
 upon a cheaper class of work. 
 
 2381. Had they as much work as usual? Yes, but it was of a character 
 that did not bring in so much money. 
 
 2382. Were the wages which employers were able to pay insufficient to pro- 
 vide for the necessities and needs of the workmen 1 No, I do not think that 
 for a moment. 
 
 2383. They were sufficient for the wants of the labourers engaged in it ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2384. But did not leave, I suppose you would say, so large a margin for 
 luxuries and enjoyment ? Yes . 
 
 2385. Do you think the men had to deprive their families, owing to this 
 lower-paid sort of work, of anything they might fairly claim 1 ? Yes, I think so. 
 
 2386. Would you tell us from your experience what these subjects were ? 
 I am hardly in a position to tell you that. 
 
 2387 . Do you think they pawned their tools ? Yes, in many cases . 
 
 2388. How did they ge.t on with their work if it was abundant and they had 
 no tools? In times of prosperity they get together a quantity of superfluous 
 tools, and they pawn those they can do without. 
 
 2389. Were they worse clothed short of greatcoats, for instance? -Not 
 particularly. 
 
 2390 . Do you think the theatres and places of amusement they generally 
 resort to were less filled ? I really cannot say. 
 
 2391. Do you think public-houses suffered? No, I never heard anything 
 of that kind. 
 
 2392. Have any butchers' shops been closed ? I could not say. 
 
 2393. What leads you to say they have been badly off? Because I know 
 from my own knowledge that trade has been of such a character, and also 
 because I know from my own knowledge that these men have suffered to that 
 extent. 
 
 2394. But might not a good workman get more by making an inferior 
 article ? No ; a man who makes a good chair could not possibly make a bad 
 one . He is taught to make a certain thing, and he must make it as he was 
 taught. 
 
 2395. Are we, then, to gather that men who were engaged in making superior 
 articles were not employed ? You will understand that a man who takes as 
 long to make an inferior article as he does to make a superior one cannot earn 
 so much as the man who has been engaged all his life upon inferior goods. 
 
 2396. Do you think that the men engaged in the better sort of work were, 
 for want of that work, compelled to undertake work of an inferior quality ? I
 
 132 
 
 Mr. N. Moss, think that was the case. I should say that we are not employers of cabinet 
 July co 188C. makers only purchasers from the men who make goods themselves to sell. Men 
 
 suffered more during the depression by having to sell their goods at a lower 
 
 rate. 
 
 2397. Do you think there was an amount of suffering among these men and 
 their families which justified an appeal to the public on their behalf ] Well, I 
 do not think there was, really. 
 
 2398. You think they had to go through great straits, but that they were 
 not such as would wreck them or their families for the future ? I do not 
 think so. 
 
 2399. Are things better now than then ? I cannot say they are. 
 
 2400. (Rev. Brooke Lambert) : You were treasurer of the Shoreditch Com- 
 mittee of the Mansion House Relief Fund ? Yes, sir. 
 
 2401. Every case was investigated ? Yes, I believe they were, as far as I 
 know. Of course, it was done very hurriedly. 
 
 2402. Can you say how far the cases were investigated ? No, I cannot ; I 
 understand that they were. 
 
 2403. ' 2,858 cases were relieved at the Town Hall in the course of twelve 
 days, besides a very large number of other cases relieved by the Ward Com- 
 mittees subsequently, and when it is remembered that every case had to be 
 investigated, and the strictest precaution taken against imposture and fraud, 
 rampant at such a time as this, some idea may be formed of the unremitting 
 and indefatigable efforts of the Ward Committees, upon whose shoulders the 
 inquiry work chiefly fell.' Do you think that is literally correct? I cannot 
 tell you to what extent those cases were investigated. I was not on those 
 Committees. 
 
 2404. Well now, supposing that a new fund were raised, what alteration in 
 the organisation of the Committee would you suggest 1 Well, I am quite of 
 opinion that it ought not to be left to individual efforts. I do not think that 
 individuals and voluntary helpers in the various districts ought to be called 
 upon to do the amount of work that has been done in this case . 
 
 2405. What would you substitute ? I think some organised body, composed 
 of men of local influence, and paid inspectors 
 
 2406. Paid inspectors ? Yes ; investigators. I do not know anything much 
 of the machinery of the Charity Organisation Society, so that 1 cannot say 
 whether they would be a suitable body to employ. 
 
 2407. Did you use any labour test at Shoreditch ? Generally not, but the 
 vestry of Shoreditch decided to open the stone-yards. They had a lot of waste 
 granite, and they decided to pay men at so much per day ; very small pay, I 
 believe. The yards were soon full, and they had more than they could take 
 in. 
 
 2408. Did you say that applicants were told they must apply at the stone- 
 yard 'I Yes, if they happened to be able-bodied men. In almost every case 
 that was done. 
 
 2409. Did you refuse men because they would not go to the stone-yard ? 
 I cannot remember that anyone was refused. 
 
 2410. Would you advise the establishment of a labour test another year ? 
 I cannot say exactly; that is, I do not know what sort of a test you would 
 apply to cabinet-makers. 
 
 2411. (Mr. Edgcombe) : You said that you were not very familiar with the 
 work of the Mansion House Committee I Yes, I was not present on all 
 occasions. 
 
 2412. You attended a sufficient number to form a pretty good opinion of 
 how the work was done ? Yes. 
 
 2413. The reason 1 asked the question was, that when the Chairman asked 
 you what investigation was done, you did not seem to know. That was because 
 it was done by the Ward Committees ; I did not attend any of these. I cannot 
 say whether the inquiry was done successfully or unsuccessfully. 
 
 2414. There were no paid inquiry officers employed I No ; I think the only 
 persons who were paid were the clerks. 
 
 2415. Such inquiries, more or less thorough, were conducted by the members
 
 138 
 
 of the Committees only V Yes, tradesmen and clergymen. They might or 
 might not have been familiar with the work. 
 
 2416. What work did they undertake to do ? It was very simple work they 
 had to do : I do not know that it required very much knowledge. They had 
 the address of the applicant and made inquiries, &c. 
 
 2417. I suppose of course that they went upon a regular system visited 
 the employer, and so on 1 In my experience it is a matter of skilled work, 
 sometimes, to ascertain whether a man ought to be assisted. I daresay there 
 was some imposition. 
 
 2418. (Mr. Allen) : Were the class of persons relieved chronic cases that 
 is, men who were always in difficulty 1 I think they were to a large extent ; 
 yes. 
 
 2419. Supposing there had been no Mansion House Fund, do you think the 
 Poor Law authorities would have been able to deal with the distress satisfac- 
 torily ? I can hardly answer. 
 
 2420. Were there many really good workmen out of employment 1 I think 
 there were. 
 
 2421. Would it be a large or small number 1 There was a minority ; I 
 cannot say to what extent. 
 
 2422. Were you personally acquainted with any really good workmen who 
 were at that time out of work 1 Yes. 
 
 2423. Many ? Not many, but there were some. 
 
 2424. Half a dozen? Yes, quite that. 
 
 2425. Do you think the Poor Law would have met chronic cases? I do not 
 think so . 
 
 2426 . Do you think there is likely to be any exceptional distress next win- 
 ter ? I hope not. I am rather of opinion that we shall have a better trade. 
 
 2427 . Have you anything to go upon ? No, only the general knowledge 
 that one acquires through seeing and speaking to people in the business . We 
 generally know whether stocks are large or not. 
 
 2428. Supposing there was to be any exceptional distress, should you advo- 
 cate the formation of Committees in the same way ? Not in the same way ; I 
 think it ought not to be left to voluntary aid. There should be employers of 
 labour, guardians, and working men. 
 
 2429. Would you form a Committee of that description ? Do you think it 
 would be good ? Yes, with inquiry agents and one recognised system through- 
 out the metropolis . 
 
 2430. (Mr. Hedley) : Did good men go to the Mansion House Fund and get 
 relief ? Yes, in several cases their tools were taken out of pawn . 
 
 2431 . What makes you say you do not think the Poor Law would have 
 dealt with ordinary cases satisfactorily ? I do not think they would have the 
 means at their hands to deal sufficiently with them. 
 
 2432. But the Poor Law have the whole of the rates at their hands ? Yes, 
 but by what I can understand the relief they give is miserably insufficient. 
 
 2433. (Chairman) : Do not you know that the amount of relief is settled by 
 law ? These men would do anything rather than go inside the workhouse. 
 
 2434. (Mr. Peters) : Do you think the Mansion House Fund did more good 
 than harm ? I think it did a great deal of good. 
 
 2435. But it had some pauperising effects ? I am not going to say there 
 were not some cases of imposture. I do not see how it could be avoided. 
 
 2436. (Mr. Loch) : You say the offices were very crowded ? Oh, yes, at the 
 earliest part of it. 
 
 2437. And how many inquiries do you suppose you had at that time ? I 
 cannot give any detail at all. 
 
 2438. Do you think it would be good if any plan of preventing such crowd- 
 ing in a future year were considered ? Well, if the thing is organised better 
 probably that would be prevented. 
 
 2439. But if the crowding was very great, and the people overworked, the 
 inquiries must have been superficial ? I should not like to say. The Com- 
 mittees were large, and they divided the work amongst them. 
 
 2440. Taking your last statements as a eort of standard of the amount of 
 
 L
 
 134 
 
 Mr. N. Moss, work available in your trade, do you think it was much less than is ordinarily 
 
 to be had ? I do not think it was. 
 July so, 1886, 2 ^1. It was, therefore, different in kind rather than amount ? Yes, 
 
 quite so. 
 
 2442. The consequence was, good workmen were wasting their powers on 
 cheaper work ? Quite so. 
 
 2443. Do you think that in consequence of that there were workmen who 
 ordinarily did cheap work who could get no work ? Well, I cannot quite say that. 
 
 "2444. Then what it comes to is, there was a greater demand for cheap work 
 than usually ? Exactly. 
 
 t.4-2445. And that a good workman had to lower his standard, and the bad 
 workman had work as well ? Yes. 
 
 2446. Now, is that to be a permanent state of things, do you think? I 
 hope not, but I cannot say. 
 
 2447. It was extraordinary I It has been the tendency. 
 
 2448. Do you think anything can be done to prevent a good workman 
 becoming a bad one ? He may get a little slovenly in his work, but he 
 cannot go very far wrong. 
 
 2449. At any rate he has to expend very much more labour to get a liveli- 
 hood, or work longer hours for worse pay ? He has to work longer. 
 
 2450. (Chairman) : How many men emigrated I I have no doubt that 
 many good workmen go to Australia and America. 
 
 2451. Is there a good field for cabinet-making in Australia ? I don't know. 
 I rather think there is. 
 
 2452. (Mr. Loch) : Is there no other department of labour, so far as you 
 know, in England, to which the men could put their better talents no kindred 
 work now done abroad to which they could be put ? I don't think there is. 
 In London trade is different to the country. In London generally, if a man 
 makes a chair so to speak he cannot make a table ; he must be kept at the 
 particular article. In the country he can make anything you place before him. 
 
 2453. You think that trade is so divided in London that a man can only 
 make a particular thing. Would it not be a great assistance to a man if he 
 could turn his attention to making some other article outside his own trade ? 
 It would amount to his serving his apprenticeship over again. 
 
 2454. (Chairman) : He is a machine ? Exactly. If work different to the 
 ordinary kind is given to nine-tenths of men, they can't or won't do it. 
 
 2455. (Mr. Loch) : It is not worth the masters' while to teach the men other 
 things. If a man can only do one sort of work, he has to go down hill directly 
 the single form of industry is not wanted ? That is rather going to the 
 extreme. It is taking a very extreme view of the thing to say a man must 
 go down hill because he won't turn his hand to other things. I have known 
 cabinet-makers to go down to Epping Forest and take to the ' three-sticks-a- 
 penny ' business when they could not get work ; they have opened greengrocers' 
 shops, and become carmen, and have given up their trade altogether. 
 
 2456. So far as the particular profession to which he has been apprenticed he 
 is in that position ? Oh, yes. 
 
 2457. Would you be in favour of any technical education say, teaching a 
 man how to make two sorts of chairs well ? Yes ; the technical colleges will 
 do a vast amount of good in that way. 
 
 2458. Supposing a period of out-of-work affected a certain set of good work- 
 men, in another year would you approve of giving relief on condition that they 
 were taught to make other things than those they could already make ? That 
 is another very big question. If you give relief while the men are learning 
 another trade, it is rather a large thing : I should not like to advise as to that. 
 
 2459. The demand of the public is constantly for cheaper goods ? Yes. 
 
 2460. That is the reason so far of the degradation of workmen ? Yes ; I 
 hardly like to call it degradation. 
 
 2461. It gives rise to a lower form of work than before ? Exactly. 
 
 2462. Therefore eventually the trade falls into depression, more or less ? 
 Yes. 
 
 2463. (Mr. AUen) : I have just one question. Is the depression of trade in 
 cabinet-making the same all over London ? I think so. Some of the large
 
 135 
 
 cabinet-makers in the West-End have gone completely out of it. Jackson & Mr. N. Moss. 
 Graham have gone out of the trade, simply from the fact that the class of work jutylxTigSG 
 is not required. People are going in for the cheapest thing they can get. 
 
 2464. (Chairman) ; Your works are in the City ? In Curtain Road, which is 
 next to the City. 
 
 2465. A great deal of cabinet-work is done in the City ? I don't think so. 
 
 2466. In Eldon Street 1 That is almost cleared away. It has all gone to 
 Curtain Road. 
 
 2467. (Mr. Hedley) : Do you manufacture for the home market or the 
 foreign market ? For both. The Cape and Australian are generally the best 
 markets. 
 
 2468. For America ? Nothing at all, I don't think a piece of furniture goes 
 there. They produce it themselves. They have the machinery there, and 
 produce a different class of work. 
 
 2469. The import duties are too heavy, I suppose ? No doubt it has some- 
 thing to do with it. They have the wood almost on the spot, and have improved 
 their machinery so much that they are sending furniture here, but the American 
 work does not seem to find much favour in England. 
 
 2470. (Chairman) : On the whole, Mr. Moss, may we say that you do not 
 despair of cabinet-makers' fortunes the workmen I My opinion is that the 
 state of distress is simply a chronic state of distress. The majority of men who 
 have had relief are in the same state every year ; that is just my opinion. From 
 what I can gather, three parts of them are men who have work out of doors. 
 
 2471. Would you assent to the statement that three parts of them deserved 
 to be in that state that it was their own doing ? I should hardly like to say 
 that. I should like to see more thrift. A great deal might be done by them- 
 selves, if they had the mind to do it. 
 
 2472. (Mr. Hedley) : Was the distress last winter more severe than on previous 
 occasions ? I don't think it was much more. The Mansion House Fund did a 
 a great deal of good. I think we had about 2,300 ; that was distributed 
 amongst the small tradesman in the parish for provisions, groceries, and various 
 things required, and no doubt it assisted them very materially. There was 
 great depression amongst the small shopkeepers. They had been giving trust to 
 the people, and the ready money of the fund was of great assistance to them. 
 
 2473. (Chairman) : It must also have encouraged them to continue the 
 system of giving trust ? Of course another winter they would do the same thing 
 if they thought it was probable that the Mansion House Fund was coming 
 again. It was proposed this year that only three or four tradesmen in each 
 district should supply the articles required. I suggested that every tradesman 
 no matter how small should have a share. I knew they had been giving trust, 
 and wished them to get some ready money. I paid something like 2,000 trades- 
 men's accounts. I should not care to have a task like it again. 
 
 2474." (Mr. Edgcombe) : Was there any great objection to giving cash ? Did 
 you feel bound by your instructions to give tickets, or did you think it was a 
 wiser course than giving money ? We thought it the better plan. We could 
 not work it so as to give all the people money. 
 
 2475. (Mr. Peters) : They would have spent it badly ? It might have been 
 taken to the public-house. 
 
 2476. (Mr. Loch referred to the Board of Trade return for 1883 the last 
 published, showing that the imports of mahogany were to the value of 494,110 
 for furniture, hardwood, and veneers, together with other wood imported for 
 the same purpose, and set down as ' unenumerated,' to the value of 581,115. 
 The return showed, he pointed out, a considerable increase on 1881 and 1882 ) 
 That is no test. You cannot tell by that. All our wood pretty well comes 
 from abroad. 
 
 2477. (Mr. Allen) : Very little mahogany is used now, it is going out of 
 fashion ? They use it for the inside work. 
 
 2478. (Chairman) : They have run so short of American walnut now that 
 they are pulling up the old stock fences, that had been down there for forty 
 years. I saw one curly root of walnut sold in the United States for 5. It was 
 said that four years ago it would not have made 5s. I am told now that walnut 
 wood is dying out, and cherry wood coming in. 
 
 ia
 
 INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. 
 
 Able-bodied, No Outdoor Relief given to, 1089. 
 No Out-relief to except by the Labour Yard, 
 1167. Paupers, increase of, 10C2. Should 
 earn any money given to them, 102G. Were 
 offered Libour test, 2409. Relief of the, 1505, 
 2204; see also Labour Yard and Labour Test 
 Abstainers applying were received favourably,213 
 Acworth, Evidence of Mr. W. M., 393 
 Administrators of the Fund, see Fund 
 Aged People past work not relieved, 583 
 Agencies, see Organisations 
 Andrews, Evidence of Mr. A. S., 2309 
 Almoners, Appointment of, 33, 35, 39 et seq. 
 Appointment of Sub, 28. Clergy, the chief, 
 41. Distributed Grants on their individual 
 judgment, 44. Insufficient, 302. Isolated ac- 
 tion of, 42,50, 56. 139, 175. Status of, 305 et seq. 
 America, Building Trade generally bad except 
 
 in, 2117. Furniture not exported to, 2469 
 American Work in Furniture Trade not favoured 
 
 in England, 2470 
 
 Appeal for Fund, see also Fund. Simply de- 
 creased the number of Applications to other 
 Charitable Agencies, 134, 137 
 Applicants (see also Applications and Cases), 
 Advisability of Trade and Benefit Societies 
 sending, 2015. Character of, 1894. Class 
 of, 942. Crowd of, would be prevented by 
 better organisation, 2439. Deserving, gene- 
 rally mechanic?, 1896. Employed, Character 
 of, "1776. Employed, Description of, 1776 
 et seq. Employed, were mostly of the class 
 always out of work in winter, 1830 et seq. 
 For employment were bona Jide out of work, 
 1825. Fund created, 671 et seq. Great 
 number of loafers, 1638. Great crowds of, 
 1181, 1231, 2014, 2210, 2286, 2211, 2437. 
 Had to fill up forms, 961. Increase and worse 
 class of, as Fund became advertised, 591, 1617. 
 Labour-yard should be offered to some, 
 2009. Mode in which sent, 606. Mostly ir- 
 regularly employed, 1180. Mostly labourers, 
 1028. No instructions in the Rules of the 
 Fund as to the character of, 108. No really 
 good artisans amongst, 1646. Objection of, 
 to go to the Clergy, 1629, 1630. Object to 
 inquiry, 637, 639. Occupation of, 315 et seq., 
 401, 1481 ; see also letter from Mr. Bramly, 
 p. 22. Proportion relieved, 472, 592. Question 
 as to length of residence of, 475. Reluctance 
 to go to the Workhouse of, 2434. Required 
 as far as possible to state case personally, 429. 
 Small knowledge of Clergy and Relieving 
 Officers of great majority of, see letter from 
 Mr. Yalpy, p. 15. 80 numerous that at first 
 passive attitude only taken, 16. Stated that 
 they had to pawn more than usual, 1192. 
 Status of, 361, 362, 1094. Suggestions as to 
 sending, 2287 et seq. Superior class of, 617. 
 
 Applicants continued. 
 
 Unthrifty, should be sent to the Poor Law, 
 2258. Were almost all relieved, 1619. Were 
 seen by Committee and visited, 505. When 
 too numerous, told to fill up forms, 429. Will 
 not go to the Charity Organisation Society or 
 the Poor Law, 633. Worse for drink after re- 
 ceiving relief, 866, 1187 
 
 Application Forms caused respectable people to 
 apply, 431. Distributed by School Board and 
 District Visitors, 432. Evidence as to, 604. 
 Issue of, 558. Necessary, 426. Of no value, 
 931. Sent in large bund'les to the Clergy, 293. 
 -Should have been more concise, 2238 
 
 Applications (see also Applicants and Cases) at 
 first improperly dealt with, 1383. Fund caused 
 many new, 2145. For relief, Fund stimulated, 
 135. From common lodging-houses not 
 assisted, 830 ; see also Lodging-houses. Great 
 number of. 1301, 1451 ; see also Applicants. 
 Large number of, refused, 2176. Method 
 adopted to invite, 18. Mode in which, came in, 
 1261, 1262. Mode of, 1181. Mode of deal- 
 ing with, 831 et seq., 1184. Mostly chronic 
 cases, 992. 995, 2337. Mostly personal, 1183. 
 None excluded, 2221. Not increased by the 
 Fund,784. Notice-board set up which attracted, 
 827. Number of, 830, 858, 1230, 1291. Of 
 skilled artisans dealt with satisfactorily, 2140. 
 Ordinary, Percentage of increase above, 2173. 
 Stimulated by distribution of forms, 161. To 
 the Charity Organisation Society, 31 
 
 Artisans (see also Mechanics, Working Man,Work- 
 men), Better-class, will suffer great poverty 
 before applying to Poor Law, 906. Distress 
 among, not discovered, 2083. Distress con- 
 fined to, 1102. Employment by speculative 
 builders of inferior, "1668. Employment 
 should be found for better-class, out of work, 
 1688. Fund benefited, 2247. Fund did not 
 reach better class of, 912, 986. Fund regarded 
 as more especially for, 148. Good, not in 
 actual want, 1662. Good, will not degrade 
 themselves by applying for charity, 1646. Im- 
 proved condition of, 1671, 1672. Large number 
 of, applied, 2244. Might not be affected by 
 depression in trade, 917. Not a large numbe'r 
 of skilled, applied, 2139. Reluctant to apply 
 to the Fund, 1961, 1997, 2183. Superior 
 class of, relieved, 1242. Very few apply for 
 charity in the winter, 2000. Would notapply, 
 825, 1662. Would not care to be seen cleans- 
 ing the streets, 852 
 
 Australia, Field for cabinet-makers in, 2152, 2468 
 
 Avis, Evidence of Mrs., 1426 
 
 Battersea, Evidence as to, 1286 
 Begging, Large amount of, 1165. More per- 
 sistent in consequence of Fund, 388 et seq.
 
 11 
 
 Benefit Societies v see also Clubs, Friendly Societies, 
 Thrift), Advisability of cases being sent by ,2015 
 
 Bermondsey Vestry sent men to be employed by 
 Metropolitan Public Gardens Association, 1770 
 
 Blackmail levied, 332 
 
 Bloomsbury, Evidence as to, 200 
 
 Boot Trade slack, 1483 
 
 Brabazon, Lord, see Metropolitan Public Gardens 
 Association 
 
 Bramly, Evidence of Mr. J. R. J., 273 
 
 Brickfields, Many applicants worked in the, 1,094 
 
 Bricklayers, Wages of, 120 
 
 Brush Trade slack, 1482, 1540 et seq. 
 
 Builders, Scarcity of work among, 1355. Specu- 
 lative, do not employ foreign material, 2065. 
 Speculative, use material from abroad, 1675. 
 Trade of Speculative, 1666 
 
 Building, Decrease of, 1133, 1592. Societies, 
 Enquiry of, 012. Societies, Increased member- 
 ship, 330. Speculative, not improving, 2115, 
 2116. The principal trade, 318 
 
 Building Trade, Applicants chiefly belonged to 
 the, 2082. Depression in, less in London than 
 in other parts, 1601, 1602. Decrease of work 
 in the, 1585 et seq. Effects of severe winter 
 on, 2045. Evidence as to the, 1581. Excep- 
 tional want of employment in the, 1608. 
 High wages ensure better work, 1607. 
 Higher wages in London than the country, 
 1594 et seq. Generally bad except in Colonies 
 and America, 2117. Increase of wages, see 
 Wages. Inferior, more depressed, 1666. Work 
 in, 1&68 et seq. Majority of applicants were 
 employe's in the, 1094. Many applicants 
 belonged to the, 1297. Mode of procedure as 
 to employment of hands, 1594, et seq. Not 
 greatly affected by machinery, 1625, 1673. 
 Wages in the, 320, 321, 32*2, 1603 et seq., 
 1667. Wages lower in the country, 1606 
 
 Cadgers {see Ragamuffins, Loafers, &c.), Decrease 
 of number of, 738. Not relieved, 627 
 
 Cabinet-makers (see also Furniture Trade), 
 Distress chronic among, 2471. Employed in 
 cheaper work, 2381. Large firms of, have 
 abandoned the trade, 2464 
 
 Cabinet-making, Cape and Australia markets 
 for, 2468. Depression in, general all over 
 London, 2464. Evidence as to the, 2381 et seq. 
 Good field in Australia for, 2452 
 
 Camberwell, Evidence as to, 393 
 
 Cape, The, market for cabinet-making, 2468 
 
 Carpenters do not suffer much from foreign 
 material, 2062 et seq. Emigration of, 2094 
 e l se q. Foreign, 2U60. Large number ap- 
 plied, 2244. Large number out of work, 
 248. Rate of wages and hours of labour, 
 2059. Some were out of work who never 
 were before, 2256. Slack trade among, 2037. 
 Trade, Improvement of, 2,069. Wages were 
 not lowered, 2038 et seq. 
 
 Cases (see also Applicants and Applications), 
 Great number of, 195. More or less chronic, 6 1 , 
 62 et seq. Not appreciably different from those 
 ordinarily applying for relief, 69 Percentage 
 of improper, 95. Assisted, Returns of, 83 et seq. 
 Relieved would have been relieved under 
 ordinary circumstances by ordinary relief 
 agencies, 132 
 
 Character of Applicants, No instructions in the 
 Rules of the Fund as to the, 108. Inquiry into, 
 1470, 1510 
 
 Charities, Combination advocated of, 2206. 
 Want of co-operation between local, see letter 
 from Mr. Valpy, 15 
 
 Charity Organisation Society, Applicants have 
 strong feeling against, 163*1. Applications to 
 the, 31. Co-operation between 'Poor Law and, 
 683, 749, 793. Co-operation with the, 82, 1461, 
 1462, 1615. Could have met distress with 
 larger funds, 1391, 1392. Fund distributed at 
 the office of the, 32. Fund not distributed 
 according to principles of, 65. Machinery 
 sufficient for purposes of investigation, 237. 
 Not too rigorous in their inquiry, 793. People 
 will not apply to the, 63-"!. Question as to 
 distribution relieving the funds of the, 59. 
 Reason why applicants in Soho objected to 
 apply to, 664. Special meeting to consider 
 steps to be taken, 283. Strong feeling of 
 workmen against, 2277 
 
 Charity Relief Works, see Metropolitan Public 
 Gardens Association, also Labour Test, &c. 
 
 Charity was undertaking Poor Law work, 2258 
 
 Cheap Work, see Work 
 
 Chronic, Bulk of distress was, 1134 
 
 Chronic Cases, Application of labour test to, 972. 
 Applications mostly from, 992, 995, 2337. 
 Clergy inclined to assist, 270. Could not be nier, 
 by the Poor Law, 2426, 2432. Difficulty of 
 dealing with, 1694. District Visitors relieve, 
 1681. Jewish Board of Guardians would not 
 send to the Poor Law, 2151, 2152. Not 
 assisted, 261, 939, 1231. Out-of-work poor 
 detest, 1368. Relief of, 821, 2152, 2178, 
 2219. Rules did not sanction relief of, 62. 
 Should be sent to the Poor Law, 2340. Ten- 
 dency of Fund to relieve, 1610 
 
 Chronic Distress, 1477. Among Cabinet Makers, 
 2471. Can only be met by Thrift, 1145 
 
 Church and ChapelAttendants,Fundrelieved,1610 
 
 City Missionary, Recommendation of case by, not 
 sufficient, 210 
 
 Clapham, Evidence as to, 1286 
 
 Clare Market, Evidence as to. 200 
 
 Classes, Direct statement wanted as to which 
 should be relieved, 1285. Should be brought 
 into contact with the masses, 2112 
 
 Cleanliness, Increased, 1486 
 
 Cleansing Streets, 722, 763 et seq., 851 ; see also 
 Roads 
 
 Clement Danes, Evidence as to St., 200. Rector 
 of, distributed doles, and would not co-operate, 
 231, 232 
 
 Clergy, in St. Marylebone, Action of,35. Anxious 
 to relieve their own cases, 2361. Chief 
 Almoners, 41. Co-operation of, 163. Forms 
 sent in large bundles to the, 293. Gave doles, 
 see letter from Mr. R. A. Valpy, p. 15. Gave 
 useful information, 304, 344, 346 Greet 
 number of applicants were those who are con- 
 tinually relieved by, 1639. Have small know- 
 ledge of great majority of applicants, see 
 letter from Mr. Valpy, p. 15. Issue of forms 
 to, see letter from Mr. Bramlv, p. 22. Objec- 
 tion to applying to the, 1629, 1G30. Recom- 
 mendation of case by, not sufficient, 210. 
 Refused to be Almoners, 284. Should be on 
 the Committees of the Fund, 2304 et seq. Some 
 undeserving cases recommended by, 344 
 
 Clerks, Applications from,114. Great number of 
 applied, 403 
 
 Club Arrears, amount spent to pav, 877. 
 Arrears paid, 1242, 1267, 1531, 1969, 2359 
 
 Clubs (see Friendly and Benefit Societies, 
 also Thrift) for dock labourers, No solvent, 
 813. Larger amounts should be given to 
 members of, than to non-members, 884. 
 Majority of applicants did not belong to, 
 877. -Membership of, 354, 377, 378, 1488.
 
 Ill 
 
 Clubs con! in iii'd. 
 
 Relief given to enable applicants to join, 879. 
 Very few applicants belonged to good, 211 
 
 Coal "Trade, Evidence as to the 2309 et seq. 
 Fund not required for the, 2323. Xo out-of- 
 work in the, 2319. Scarcity of hands in the, 
 2354, Severe winter increased employment 
 in the, 2315 et seq. Wages in the, 2319." 
 
 Coffee Tavern Company. Relief given through, 2G8 
 
 Collie, Evidence of Mr. G., 1756 
 
 Colonies, Building Trade generally bad except 
 in, 2117 
 
 Combination of Charities advocated, 2206 
 
 Committee composed of persons unaccustomed to 
 dealing with distress, 868 
 
 Committees of the Fund, Clergy should be on the, 
 2304. Composition of, 56l', 846, 1184, 1190, 
 1236, 1237, 1447, 1448, 1459, 1461, 1610, 
 1612, 2429 ; see also letter from Mr. Bramly, 
 p. 22. Head of Family required to attend 
 before, 827, 869. Procedure of, 858 et seq. 
 Small and irregular attendance of members of 
 the, 892. Working men not welcomed upon, 
 2289, 2290 
 
 Common Lodging Houses full, 740, 741. Resi- 
 dents, in not assisted, 208, 830 
 
 Competition, Chief cause of slackness, 1682. 
 Slackness in Building Trade caused by, 1589, 
 1591. The cause of distress 1689. Would 
 be increased by lowering of wages, 1602. 
 
 Country, People prefer the, if they can get work, 
 
 1499. Wages lower in the, see Building Trade. 
 
 Covent Garden, Cases of labourers, &c., from, 21G 
 
 Daily News Enquiry, Alleged harm at Camberwell 
 by, 433 
 
 Davies, Action of Rev. Llewellyn, 36, 152 
 
 Depression of Trade (see also Trade) causes 
 ow prices, 2397. Demand for cheap work 
 causes, 2463. Evidence of, 115 et seq. Not 
 exceptional, 198. Not sufficient to justify 
 establishment of Fund, 198 (see also Fund not 
 required) 
 
 Deptford, Evidence as to, 1224, 1380. 
 
 Desert of cases not so much considered if really 
 unemployed, 262 
 
 Dew, Evidence of Mr. G., 2034 
 
 Dinner Tickets, relief by, 268 ; see Tickets, also 
 Kind 
 
 Distress (see also Depression of Trade), Among 
 artisans not discovered, 2083. Ainoug Jews 
 caused by lack cf work, 2135 Amount given 
 by the Fund sufficient to mset, 1260. Ex- 
 ceptional among tne Jews, 2133. Cause of, 
 should be removed rather than distress itself 
 relieved, 798. Caused by competition, 1689. 
 Caused by general depression, 1901. Caused 
 by slack work, 1436 et seq. Caused more 
 work than usual for the Metropolitan Public 
 Gardens Association, 1699. Causes of. 1559, 
 1560. Character of, 2399. Charity Organi- 
 sation Society could have met, with larger 
 funds, 1391, 1392. Chiefly caused by arrears 
 of rent, 1174. Chronic, 1477. Cold weather 
 greatest cause of, 1258. Confined to artisan 
 class, 1102. Could be met by existing organisa- 
 tions, 954, 1391; see also Organisations. Dis- 
 covered by inquiry, 1366. Evidence of great, 
 1892. Evidence of Pawnbrokers as to, 575. 
 Jn Camberwell, 443. Fund did not touch some 
 of the, 1390. Gradual approach of, 1448, 1551 
 et seq. Great, but not so exceptional as reported, 
 287, 323, 325, 371 , 372. Great in North London, 
 1628. Is Chronic, 2471. Likely to recur. 
 1463. Local agencies could have met exist- 
 
 Distress continued. 
 
 ing, 291. Mostly chronic, 1134 etseq. None 
 in Coal Trade, 2315 et seq. Not exceptional, 
 245, 291, 325, 670, 679, 760, 780, 987, 1433, 
 2332, 2473. Not exceptional until commence- 
 ment of Fund, 397, 398, 453 et seq. Occurred 
 before establishment of Fund, 510. Parish 
 authorities said was not exceptional, 589. 
 Pawnbrokers did not think exceptional, 1191. 
 Period of, 1419. Prolonged, 1421. Poor 
 Law should in the main relieve, 812. 
 Recurrence of, feared, 544, 1917, 1865. Re- 
 currence of, not apprehended, 2070. Should be 
 met locally, 1109 et seq. Subsided with the 
 winter, 540. Thought exceptional, 1400 ct 
 seq. Was caused by bad trade, 1096. Was 
 exceptional, 502, 522, 527, 630, 1055, 1240, 1241, 
 1309 et seq., 2251. Well-directed charitable 
 effort required to meet, 922. Work created in 
 consequence of, 1718. Work given to relieve, 
 1804. Would not have been met by local 
 effort, 1505, 1566. Would not have caused 
 great hardship if Fund had not existed, 988. 
 Distribution, Mode of (see Procedure), Unsatis- 
 factory nature of the, 189. 
 
 District Boards of Works and Guardians, Co- 
 operation of, 799, 1119. 
 
 District Visitors, Application Formsissued by the 
 Clergy through, 294. Applications through 
 1262. Distributed application forms, 432. Re- 
 commendation of case by, not sufficient, 210. 
 Relieve church-goers aiid the permanent poor, 
 1681. 
 
 Dock Labour decreased, 734, 735. More regular 
 than formerly, 774. Status of men employed 
 in, 770. Temporary work, 769. 
 Dock Labourers (see. also Labourers), 1180. 
 Cannot be thrifty, 2342. Distress not excep- 
 tional among, 758. Large number of, 1956. 
 Medical Clubs for, 814. Mode of life, 1192. 
 No small solvent clubs for, 813. Not worse 
 off than usual, 1273. Should be sent to the 
 Guardians, 2355 
 Docks, Increase of warehouses round the, 776. 
 
 Rate of wages at the, 1220. 
 Doles given, 858. Given by Clergy in St. 
 
 Giles's, see letter from Mr. Valpy, p. 15. 
 Doubtful Cases relieved in kind, 1284. 
 Dove, Evidence of Mr. F. J., 1581. 
 Drink, Relief given sometimes spent in, 1222., 
 1187. Relief when given in money spent in, 
 1 947. Sale of tickets for, 1966. 
 Drinking people should be relieved only in kind, 
 
 2067. 
 
 Drunkards begged as unemployed with boxes at 
 Lewisham, 387. Families of, relieved, 858, 861. 
 Only excluded from relief, 375. Nothing in 
 the Rules of the Fund to exclude from relief 
 a, 108. Should be .sent to the Workhou.se, 
 2068 
 
 Drunkenness of those who refused to accept oiler 
 of work, 1035. Small amount of, among men 
 employed, 1819. 
 
 East London (see also Whitechapel), Not many 
 persons able to help the poor in, 712 
 
 Education, Increase of, 1652. Technical, will do 
 good, 2458 
 
 Emigrants, Maintenance of intending, see letter 
 from Mr. Bramly, p. 23 
 
 Emigrate, Best mtii would, 2255. Difficulty of 
 getting men to, 1029. Few applications to, 
 1356. Many good workmen, 2451. People 
 not willing to, 1463,1558. Some shipwrights 
 would, 1940 et seq., 1986, 2006
 
 IV 
 
 Emigrated, Care required as to cases, 2102 el seq. 
 Many applicants had, 1742 
 
 Emigration, 100G etseq. Applicants not suitable 
 for, 2377. A rcmedv for want of work, 2270. 
 By Jewish Board of Guardians, 2162, 2163, 21 8G 
 et seq. Of carpenters, 2094 et seq. Should be 
 State-directed, 2270. Suggested, 1-124 
 
 Employed, Applicants mostly irregularly, 1180. 
 Cases were relieved whilst still, 1513 
 
 Employers complain that men refused to work 
 in order to pose as unemployed, see letter 
 from Mr. Valpy, p. 15. Do not interest 
 themselves in the poor, 922 et seq. Enquiry 
 of, 247, 405, 400, 966, 905, 907, 1234, 2214, 
 et seq., 2371. Enquiry could not be made 
 of, 1297 Enquiry maue of, 529, 569, 607, 835. 
 Enquiry not made of, 1512 Had difficulty in 
 getting workmen because of the Fund, 266. 
 Large, few resident, 922. Not on Committee, 
 2362. Served on Committee, 1190 
 
 Employment (see also Labour Test, Work), Alter- 
 native, 1642 ; see also Trades. As plentiful as 
 usual, 689. Advocated in time of distress, 
 2066. Better to find, than to relieve distress, 
 1634. Difficulty of relieving by way of, 1377. 
 Men left, to obtain relief, see letter from Mr. 
 Valpy, p. 15. Men should be taught supple- 
 mental, 1149 et seq., 11G6 ; see also Trades. 
 Mode of, unsatisfactory, 1724.' Provided by 
 District Board of Works, 1119. Provision of, 
 1634 et seq. Provision of, strongly advocated, 
 1647 et seq. Should be by piecework, 1695. 
 Should be given in times of distress, 1654, 
 1656, 1724. Should be provided for better- 
 class artisans out of work, 1688. Suggestion 
 as to providing, 2070. Want of, caused dis- 
 tiess, 530 
 
 Energy, Lack of, among people, 1560 
 
 Enquiry (see also Investigation), A farce, 1186. 
 Amount of, 375, 376. Charity Organisation 
 Society not too rigorous in their, 793. Diffi- 
 culty of sufficient, 1334, 1414 et seq. Dis- 
 covered distress, 1366. Imperfect, 1948. 
 Into cases, Extent of, 72. Into character, 1470, 
 1510. Into distress, skilled work, 2418. 
 Lessens need for relief in kind, 2220. Metro- 
 politan Public Gardens Association do not 
 ordinarily employ men without, 1856. Money 
 not given without, 57. Objection of appli- 
 cants to, 637, 639. Officers, No paid, em- 
 ployed, 2415. Officers should be paid, 2406. 
 Of trade societies, 2087 et seq. Organisation 
 wanting, 483. Plan of, 72, 103, 122, 160, 399, 
 457 etseq., 831 etseq., 963 etseq., 1095, 1232 et 
 seq., 1265, 1294 etseq., 1388, 1458, 1511 etseq., 
 1568, 1572 et seq., 1620,1628, 1720, 1725, 1773, 
 1839, 1889, 1952, 2209, 2212 et seq., 2366 
 et seq., 2402 et seq. As to men at work, 
 1857 et seq. Jewish Board of Guardians, 
 2123 et seq. Kelief not given with- 
 out, 57. Staff necessary for, 659. Strict, 
 necessary, 1027. 1889 etseq.,lW2 ft .w?., 1S5S. 
 Suggestions as to, 1194, 1367,1369, 2086 et seq. 
 Was sufficient,, 626 2209 
 
 Exceptional Distress, sec Distress ; also Pressure 
 
 Family, Head of, required to attend before Com- 
 mittee, 827, 869 
 
 Fletcher, Evidence of Mr. A. P., 1 
 
 Food cheaper, 695 
 
 Foreign Jews, Fund did not attract poor, 2192 
 
 Foreign Material, Carpenters do not suffer much 
 from, 2062 et seq. Not employed by speculative 
 builders, 2065. Speculative builders use, see 
 Builders 
 
 Foreign Work, Bad quality of, 1670 et seq. In- 
 fluence upon trade of the importation of, 1679 
 Workmen in fancy trades, 2060 
 
 Foreigners affected by distress, 506. Employ- 
 ment as servants of, 168. Many. 505 
 
 Forms (see Application Forms). 
 
 Fraud, Great amount of, see letter from Mr. 
 Valpy, p. 15 
 
 Friendly Societies (see Clubs, Benefit Societies, 
 Thrift), Enquiry of, 913. Not increasing, 
 790 
 
 Fund (see also Mansion House), Administration 
 of, too much for individual effort, 2405. 
 Administrators should be local, 1694. Adver- 
 tisement of, necessary, 1611. Advocated, if 
 distributed by the Charity Organisation 
 Society, and other existing organisations, 
 1405, 1406. A mistake, 1634. Amount 
 given by, was sufficient, 1260. Amount 
 sent to Jewish Board of Guardians from 
 the, 2142. Appeal for, not justified, 2398. 
 Applicants increased after establishment of, 
 591. Applicants preferred applying to the, 
 than to the Poor Law, 418. Applications not 
 increased by the, 784. Assisted cases not 
 touched by ordinary relief agencies, 241. 
 Bad effect of the, 1634. Badly distributed at 
 first, 941. Benefited artisans, 2247. Bene- 
 fited shopkeepers, 2473. Better administra- 
 tion of, wanted, 1319, 1320. Better organisa- 
 tion of, would prevent rush of applicants, 
 2439. Caused applications which would not 
 otherwise have been made, 326, 373, 374. 
 Caused many new applications, 2145. Caused 
 people to migrate to London, 671 et seq. Caused 
 people to remain idle, see letter from Mr. Valpy, 
 p. 15. Clergy should be on the Committees 
 of the, 2304 et seq. Composition of Committees 
 of, 561, 1184, 1190,1236,1237,1447, 1448, 1459, 
 1161, 1610, 1612; see also letter from Mr. 
 Bramly, p. 22. Co-operation of, with District 
 Board of Works, 1119. Co-operation of, with 
 Relieving and Sanitary Officers, 1186. Co- 
 operation of, with the Poor Law, 1105. Crea- 
 tion of, should be prevented, 841. Deserving 
 cases not brought out by publicity given to, 
 1571. Did good, 413, 1435, 1546, 1960, 2143, 
 2435, 2473. Did harm, 1412, 1413, 1545, 2259. 
 Did not attract poor foreign Jews, 2192. 
 Did not reach better-class workmen, 912, 
 986. Did not touch some distress, 1390. 
 Difficulties of administering, 188 et seq., 
 1335 et seq., 1570. Distributions other than 
 the, 1562 et seq. Effect of the, 2052, 2058. 
 Expectation created by the, 1012. Expected 
 by ragamuffins, 332. Forced upon locality, 323. 
 Full amount granted from, not distributed, 
 618. General scramble to participate in the, 
 969. Induced large number of people to remain 
 out of work, 263. Large number of worst class 
 applied to, 1617. Large, undesirable, 902. 
 Lowering tendency of, 1962. May cause mi- 
 gration to London, 2055. May prevent ad- 
 visable migration, 1502, 1503, "1918, et seq. 
 May lessen a man's energy, 2057. Mode of 
 distributing, see Procedure. Much more sub- 
 scribed to, than was necessary, 2364. Not 
 advocated, 155, 197, 226, 356, 385, 545, 612, 
 1108, 2164. Not necessary, 137, 198, 818. 932, 
 989, 1106, 2328, 2332 et s^. Not satisfactory, 
 1195. Of great service, 1909. Only dealt with 
 an imaginary crisis, 1423. People soon knew 
 of existence of, 555. Policy of, should have 
 been more clearly stated, 169. Prevented 
 applications to labour-yard increasing, 1118.
 
 Fund continued. 
 
 Prevented people becoming paupers, 1104.- 
 Proposals for working a future, 899 et seq. 
 Publicity given to, did harm, 1407. Publicity 
 necessary as to, 1301, 1331, 1332. Quick 
 spread of news as to the, 296. Mr. Acworth's 
 Opinion as to Recurrence of, 433. Reached the 
 right people, 2082. Recurrence of, advo- 
 cated, 1320, 1467. Relieved church and 
 chapel goers, 1610. Rules issued by the, 
 see p. 7. Rules of the, not adhered to, 1628. 
 Rules of the, not much considered, 1G80. 
 Should be collected privately, not by advertise- 
 ment, 898, 1245. Should be subscribed locally, 
 360, 2365. Should not be advertised, 1209. 
 Should not be an institution, 2109. Should not 
 be raised periodically, 2258 Should not 
 relieve distress, but remove the cause, 
 2109. Simply decreased number of applica- 
 tions to other charitable agencies, 134, 137. 
 Sources of relief other than the, 1495, 1547, 
 1562, et set], 1579. Success of, depends upon 
 time taken in preparation for it, 1692. Sug- 
 gested mode of working a future, 2290 et seq. 
 Suggestion as to composition of Committees to 
 administer a, 2429. System of, as good as was 
 possible, 2067. Tendency of, to bring about 
 feelings of dependence and expectation of 
 relief, 794. Tendency of, to relieve permanent 
 poor, 1610. Too much money was not sent by, 
 1522. Unsatisfactory nature of the distribution 
 of the, 189. Warning should be issued that 
 people were not to expect recurrence of, 2110. 
 Was beneficial, but many undeserving cases 
 were relieved. 953. Was of great benefit, and 
 did good, 2143. Was useful, 1435. Was wisely 
 administered, 1106. Whole of the grant from 
 the, spent on un remunerative work, 1129. 
 Would not help in removing real distress, 387. 
 Work provided would not have been offered 
 but for the, 1719. Working men not welcomed 
 on Committees of the, 2289, 2290. Working 
 men should serve on Committees of, 2084 
 
 Furniture, Description of wood most used for, 
 2478, 2479 et seq. Large importation of 
 foreign wood for, 2477. Large increase in 
 value of walnut wood for, 2479 Not exported 
 to America, 2469 
 
 Furniture Trade (see also Cabinet-makers), 
 Amount of work not much less than ordinary, 
 2441. Evidence as to the, 2378. Lower class 
 of work in the, 2381 et seq. Mahogany not 
 much used in the, 2478. Slackness in, 2381. 
 Winter does not stop work in the, 2379. 
 Work different in kind rather than amount, 
 2442. Workman must keep to his particular 
 department in the, 2453 
 
 Gardeners, Want of employment among,1866e<seg. 
 
 Gardens Association, see Metropolitan 
 
 Gardiner, Evidence of Mr. T. Gage, 815 
 
 Gee, Evidence of Miss, 1380 
 
 George-in-the-East, Evidence as to, St., 1170 
 
 Giles's, Evidence as to, St., 200 
 
 Guardians (see also Relieving Officers, Poor Law, 
 &c.) and District Board of Works, Co-opera- 
 tion of, 799. Co-operation between Charity 
 Organisation Society and, 683. Co-operation 
 with the, 80, 839. Functions of the, 1514 et 
 seq. Not consulted, 177. Suggestion as to 
 setting on foot of relief works by, 490 
 
 Hayward, Evidence of Rev. W. Curtis, 502 
 Heale, Evidence of Mr. W., 1286 
 Hop-picking, People go, 1552, 1553 
 
 Houses for Poor, Improved, 692 ; see also Dwell- 
 ings 
 
 Idle, Fund caused people to remain, see letter from 
 
 Mr. R. A. Valpy, p. 15 
 Imposture, Evidence of great, 1892 ; see al<o letter 
 
 from Mr. Valpy, p. 15 
 Improper Cases, Proportion of, 95 
 Individual Judgment as to cases best, 622 
 Individuals did not assist cases, 341 
 Investigation, see Enquiry 
 Irregular Work, see Labourers, Casual 
 Islington, Evidence as to, 581 
 Isolated Action of the Almoners, 42, 50, 56, 139, 
 
 175 
 
 Jack, Evidence of Mr., 935 
 
 James's St., Evidence as to the parish of, 502 ; 
 see also Soho 
 
 Jewish Board of Guardians, Amount expended 
 annually in relief by, 2171. Amount received 
 from the Fund by, 2142. Composition of Relief 
 Committee of, 2130. Emigration by, 2162, 
 2163, 2186 et seq. Evidence of Secretary of, 
 2118. Mode adopted of raising funds by, 
 2148 et seq. Mode of procedure of, 2156 et seq. 
 Organisation of, quite complete, 2161. 
 Would not have sent cases to the Poor Law, 
 2151, 2152 
 
 Jewish Population, Evidence as to, 2121 et seq. 
 Relief Societies, Co-operation amongst, 2180 
 
 Jews, Exceptional distress among, 2133. Trades 
 followed by, 2137 
 
 Kenny. Mr., distributes broadcast forms for apply- 
 ing for relief, 156 
 
 Kind, Doubtful cases relieved in, 2219. Enquiry 
 lessens need of relief in, 2220. Relief not 
 generally in, 1282. Relief in, 215, 268, 2473, 
 2475 ; see also Tickets. Relief Chiefly in, 186. 
 Relief in, mischievous, 1656. Relief of chronic 
 cases in, 2219. Relief in, seldom resorted to, 
 786. Small advantage of relief in, 864. 
 
 Labour (see also Work), Badly paid, 1204. 
 Relief provided by, 1122, 1126. Supplemental, 
 1424 ; see also Trades. Whole grant from the 
 Fund spent on unremunerative, 1129 
 
 Labour Market, Complete information as to state 
 of, desirable, 1363. Influence of the Fund upon 
 the, 263 
 
 Labour Test, 309 et seq., 473, 474, 808, SOS, 811, 
 821, 822, 850, 893 et seq., 970 et ?eq., 993 et seq., 
 1177, 1196 et seq., 1217, 1226, 1249 et seq., 1303 
 et seq., 1318, 1347, 1372 et seq., 1640, 2078, 207'J, 
 2408 ; see also letter from Mr. Bramly, p. 23. 
 Amount of relief wage necessary, 978 et seq. 
 Advisable, 1248. Approved, 944. Classes to 
 which not applicable, 2294. Difficulty of Ap- 
 plj'ing, 1219. Good class of workmen would 
 not accept a, 2267. For women, 1177, 1217. 
 Hard, 1374. Men skulked and got drunk while 
 at the, 984. Not adopted, but advisable for 
 some cases, 2197 et seq., 2200. Rate of pay- 
 ment and hours, 2296. Should not be at lower 
 wages, 1643 
 
 Labour-yard, 366, 753, 840, 854, 855, 1658, 1660 
 Advocated, 1832 et seq., 1852 et seq. For some 
 cases, 2009, 2032. Cases in the, helped, 411. 
 Dissatisfaction with the, 1515 et seq. 
 Dock labourers would shirk, 2031. For dock 
 labourers and the unthrifty, 2357. Loafers 
 should go to the, 1688. Mam- employed by 
 Metropolitan Public Gardens Association might 
 have been at the, 1738. Men object to go to,
 
 VI 
 
 Labour Yard continued. 
 
 1853, 1929 et seq., 1999. No, 603, 1177. Not 
 required, 752. The only out-relief to able- 
 bodied, 1089, 1167. TOD demoralising for a 
 respectable man, 994. Would have been no 
 hardship to some of the applicants, 993 
 
 Labourers (see also Dock), Applicants mostly, 
 942, 1028. Casual, were relieved, 1955. Fund 
 did not reach better class of, 986 (see also 
 Artisans, Workmen) 
 
 Landlords, Pressure put upon tenants for back 
 rent by, see letter from Mr. Valpy, p. 15 
 
 Laymen in St. Marylebone, Appointment as Al- 
 meners of, 40 
 
 Legge, Evidence of Hon. and Rev. Canon, 1036 
 
 Letter, Applications received by, 467 
 
 Lewisham, Evidence as to, 273, 935, 1036 
 
 Limehouse, Evidence as to, 1878 
 
 Loafers, Decrease in number of, 738. Should be 
 given piecework, 1734 (see also Cadgers, 
 Ragamuffins) 
 
 Loan, suggestion as to raising, to relieve distress, 
 1651 
 
 Local Administrators required to distribute Fund, 
 1694. Charities, communication with, 258. 
 Effort would not have met distress, 1565, 1566. 
 Fund should be, 477, 478, 2365. Magnates did 
 not fulfil their responsibilities, 2363 
 
 Locally, Distress could have been met, 1160 
 
 Lodging-houses, see Common 
 
 London Docks, see Docks 
 
 London, Fund caused a migration to, 671 et seq. 
 Fund may cause migration to, 2055. Great 
 migration to, 2053. Wages in the .Building 
 Trade higher, see Building 
 
 Machinery and the Building Trade, see Building 
 
 Machinery, Special, not wanted for the distribu- 
 tion of a special fund, 174 ; see also Organisation 
 
 Mackay, Evidence of Mr. T., 1170 
 
 Mahogany not now much used for furniture, 2478 
 
 Mansion House Fund, see Fund 
 
 Marchant, Evidence of Mr. T. W., 1224 
 
 Marv, St., Newington, Evidence as to, 815 
 
 Marylebone, Evidence as to St., 1 
 
 Masses should be brought into contact with the 
 classes, 2112 
 
 Mechanics, deserving applicants generally, 1896 ; 
 gee also Artisans, Workmen 
 
 Medical Clubs for Dock Labourers, 814. Relief, 
 Statement as to, 788, 790, 791 
 
 Menservants, Lack of employment for, 142 
 
 Metropolitan Public Gardens Association,Amount 
 received by the, 1722. Evidence as to, 187, 
 1697 et seq., 1756. Plan of procedure, 1697, 
 et seq., 1805 et seq. Rate of wages paid by 
 the, 1706, 1799, 1805 et seq. Work provided 
 by, 998 ft seq. 
 
 Metropolitan Visiting and Relief Association, 
 Circular issued by, 22. Fund and the, 9 
 
 Migration advisable, 1484, 1485. Fund may 
 prevent advisable, 1502, 1503, 1918 et seq. 
 Not noticed, 1256. Of better class 1429. Of 
 workmen from London, 1654. Relief given for, 
 881. To London, Fund caused, 671 et seq. 
 Fund may cause, 2055. Great, 2053 
 
 Money, Best to pay for work done in, 1024. 
 Objections to relief in, 1468 et seq., 1504. 
 People had less to spend, 1554 et seq. Relief 
 advocated in, 186, 1656, 2067. Relief given in, 
 409, 1282. Relief not advocated in, 1905, 1047, 
 2475, 2476 
 
 Moss, Evidence of Mr. Nathan, 2378 
 
 Newin-ton, Evidence as to, 815, 1426. 
 
 North and North-West of London, Sub-Com- 
 mittee for, 25 
 
 North London, Distress great in, 1628 
 Notice-board set up, 827 
 
 Notices of places of distribution, Wide issue of, 18 
 Nugee, Distribution by Father, 15G2 
 
 Occupation, Changes of, in bad times, 2456 
 
 Olney, Distribution by Mr., 1563 
 
 Organisation, Better, would prevent rush of 
 applicants, 2439. Of Jewish Board of Guar- 
 dians quite complete, 21(i I 
 
 Organisations, Combination advocated of, 220G. 
 Distress could be met bv existing, 244, 613, 
 636, 680, 761, 804, 867^ 954, 1328, 1391. 
 Existing, should administer the Fund if it re- 
 curred, 1406. Should be strengthened to meet 
 exceptional distress, 842, 1409 
 
 Outdoor Pauperism, Increase of, 1057, 1069 
 
 Outdoor Relief, 748, 750, 1308 ; see also Parish, 
 Poor Law, &c. Benefit of, 2030, 2033. Con- 
 fined chiefly to the aged, 1255. Evil effects of 
 lavish, 703. Free, to widows, would reduce 
 women's wages,747. Given freely, 1657. Not 
 given, 1188 
 
 Out of Work, A great deal of, not being helped, 
 1425. Applicants for employment were bonti 
 fide, 1825. Bad effect on a man of being, 
 1634. Cases and the Poor Law, 2279 et seq. 
 Cases, Mode in Whitechapel of dealing with, 
 683. Cases must apply to the parish, 1130. 
 Cases, Recurrence of, 2222 et seq. Cause of 
 waterside labourers being, 1842. Difficult to 
 find out whether applicants are, 1184. Some 
 were, who never were before, 2256 
 
 Overlapping, Question of, 178 et seq. 
 
 Painters, Distress among, 1628, 1641 
 
 Parish Authorities said distress was not except- 
 
 tional, 589 ; see also Poor Law, &c. Relief 
 supplemented, 821 
 Pauperism decreased, 676, 90G. Returns, a good 
 
 indication whether distress exists, 906, 912. 
 
 Statement as to, 702, 704 et seq. 
 Paupers, Fund prevented people becoming, 1104 
 Pawn, Redemption of tools from, 2262, 2359, 
 
 2431. Redemption from, 1267, 1968. Relief 
 
 not given to redeem things in, 2228, 2229 
 Pawnbrokers did not think distress exceptional, 
 
 1191. Said distress was great, 575 
 Pawning and Pawnbrokers, 220 et se.q. Great 
 
 deal of, 1899. Statements of applicants as to, 
 
 1192 
 Pawntickets, 890, 921. Large amount of, see 
 
 Letter from Mr. Bramly, p. 23. Not verified, 
 
 223 
 People, Improved condition of, 1427 ct seq., 1486, 
 
 1532. Lack of energy among, 1560 
 Periodic Cases, see Chronic 
 Permanent Poor, see Chronic 
 Personal Service to the Poor, Value of, 714, 
 
 270 
 
 Pledge, see Pawn 
 Police required to keep order among applicants, 
 
 1181 
 Political Motives displayed by persons offering 
 
 help in the distribution, 254 
 Poor (see also Working Classes), Condition of, 
 
 not different from previous year, 70. Districts, 
 
 Pauperism, less in, than in rich, 719. Im- 
 proved condition of, 690. Sanitary Condition 
 
 of, 693, 789. Increased care for the, 783, 801. 
 
 Less sickness among the, 694. The, help 
 
 the poor; 715 
 Poor Law (see also Guardian?, Parish, Relieving
 
 Vll 
 
 Poor Law continued. 
 
 Officers, Out-door Relief, Pauperism, Work- 
 house), Administration, Improved, 782. Ap- 
 plicants did not care to apply to, 415, 416, 417, 
 418. Cases assisted by, not helped by the 
 Fund, 260. Cases at first mostly those for the, 
 825. Cases for the, did not apply, 573. Cases 
 sent by but not to, 1621, 1622. Cases were re- 
 lieved, 822, 825, 889. Chronic cases referred to 
 the, 939. Chronic cases should be sent to the, 
 2340. Co-operation between Charity Organisa- 
 tion Society and the, 683, 749, 793 ; of the Fund 
 with the, 1105. Dock labourers should be 
 sent to the, 2355. Functions of the, 798, 
 134H, 1696. Inadequacy of relief given by the, 
 2433. Lower class should be left to the, 2106, 
 2107. Many cases not suitable for the, 361. 
 Not sufficient to deal with exceptional distress. 
 339. Officers, see Relieving Officers. People 
 will not apply to, 633, 1370, 1504. Unthrifty 
 applicants should be sent to the, 2258. Would 
 not meet chronic cases, 2426, 2432. Work, 
 Charity was undertaking, 2358. Working 
 men know little about, 1696 
 
 Population Question deserves attention, 919, 920 
 
 Post Office Savings Bank, Few deposit in, 1490 
 
 Powell, Evidence of Mr. J. D., 2230 
 
 Praed, Relief given byMr., 1443, 1523, 1526, 1547, 
 1575,1579 
 
 Press. Advertisements in the, 19 
 
 Pressure (see also Distress), Ordinary relief 
 agencies not sufficient for, 241 
 
 Procedure, Plan of, 92 et seq., 358. 408, 420 et 
 seq., 457 et seq., 960, 1079, 1184, 1231 et seq., 
 1324, 1411 
 
 Providence, see Thrift 
 
 Provident Societies, Increased membership of, 330 
 
 Public Gardens Association, see Metropolitan 
 
 Public-house Trade, Decrease of, 726, 727, 742. 
 Did not suffer, 392, 577, 2392 
 
 Public-houses, Tickets of the Fund sold in, 268, 269 
 
 Public Works, see Employment, Labour Test, and 
 Relief Works 
 
 Ragamuffins expect recurrence of Fund, 332 
 Relations should help, It should not be a 
 
 cardinal point that, 641 
 
 Relief, Advertisement that it was to be given, 
 468. Agency, Fund was merely an additional, 
 133. Amount annually expended bv Jewish 
 Board of Guardians in, 2171. Amount of, 
 1216, 1222, 1223, 1228, 1290, 1529. 1530. 
 By tickets, 1450, 1504, 1506 et seq., 1949; 
 see also Tickets, Kind. Committee, suggestion 
 as to a permanent, 227. Direct statement as 
 to classes to whom it should be given, 1285. 
 Enquiry lessens need for, 2220. Extent of, 
 441, 442. Given by weekly allowances, 368. 
 Given to many who ought not to have had it, 
 1187. In kind, 2473, 2475, see also Kind. In 
 money, 409. In money advocated, 1656, 2067. 
 In money inadvisable to give, 2476. In 
 monej', objections to, 1468 et seq., 1504, 1947. 
 Ma'nner of, 8(52, 863, 1079 et seq., 1230, 
 1267, 1450, 1408 et seq., 2135 et seq. Mis- 
 chievous, 1656. Mode and Scale of, 2178 et 
 seq. Necessary because people have no energy 
 as to emigration, &c., 1559, 1560. Not gene- 
 rally in kind, 1282. Number of cases, and 
 amount given in, 1452 et seq. Of the able- 
 bodied, 1505, 2204. Rules as to, 1294, 1338, 
 1339. Sources of, other than the Fund, 1495, 
 1547. 1562 et seq., 1579. To artisans, tempo- 
 rary, 2141. Withheld because it would be 
 spent in drink. 1548 
 
 Relief Works, see Labour Test, also Work?. 
 1634, 2374. Endeavour to establish, 434 et seq. 
 
 Relieved, Percentage, 1292 
 
 Relieving Officers (see also Guardians, Poor Law 
 &c.), Additional, appointed, 1076 
 
 Relieving Officers, Co-operation with, 72 et seq., 
 225, 461,822, 840, 929, 930, 940, 11*6, 1188, 13(54 
 et seq., 1572 et seq., 1957, 2373. Enquiry not 
 made of, 572, 610. Have small knowledge <>f 
 majority of applicants, see letter from Mr 
 Valpy, p. 15. Not always to be relied upon 
 for evidence as to distress, 1311, 1313. Sent 
 cases to the Fund which they had refused to 
 relieve, 1612. State nothing indicating excep- 
 tional distress, 330. Working men will not 
 apply to the, 1312, 1313, see also Poor Law. 
 
 Rent, Application for payment of back, 100, 15(5 
 Arrears of, greater than usual, 1397. Back, 
 paid, 621, 874, 1174, 1215 ; not paid, 1278 et 
 seq., 1531, 2105, 2218. Too high, 585. 
 Evidence as to payment of back, 654, et seq. 
 Increase of, 691. Much arrears of, 456. 
 Pressure put by landlords upon tenants for back, 
 see letter from Mr. Valpy, p. 15 
 
 Residence of Applicants, Length of, 475. Rule 
 
 as to length of, 207, 1294 
 j Resident Cases only relieved, 1256 
 j Respectable Poor d'id not care to personally apply, 
 1270. Would not come forward on account of 
 crowd of ragamuffins, 212 
 
 Returns of Cases assisted, 83 et seq. 
 \ Rich districts, Pauperism larger in, than in poor, 
 719 
 
 Riverside Work, Slackness of, 1864 
 
 Roads, Making and cleansing of, Relief by, 945 
 et seq., see also Streets and Cleansing 
 
 Roberts, Evidence of Mr. R.. 1581 
 
 Roman Catholic Clergy, Cases sent by, mostly 
 ineligible, see letter from Mr. Valpy, p. 15 
 
 Rules, Delay in issuing, 239, 1173 
 
 Rules of the Fund, 61 ; see also p. 7. Do not 
 exclude drunkards from relief, 108. Not ad- 
 hered to, 62, 1628. Not much considered, 
 1680 
 
 Sailors pretty well employed, 2349 
 
 Sanitary Condition of poor, Improved, 693,789. 
 Officers, Co-operation with, 1186 
 
 Savings (see also Thrift, Banks, Post Office, 
 Increased membership, 330. Of the people, ex- 
 hausted, 1903 
 
 School Board Visitors distributed application 
 forms, 432 
 
 Schoolmasters and Visitors, Valuable information 
 received from, see letter from Mr. Valpy, 
 p. 15. 
 
 Servants, see also Men. Employment of foreign- 
 ers as, 168. Great number of. 101. Out of 
 place, Applications from, 101, 141 
 
 Sewing-class Test, 1177, 1217 
 
 Shipbuilders, Want of work among, 1240 ; sec also 
 Shipwrights 
 
 Shipbuilding Trade, generally bad. 1913 et seq., 
 1972 et seq. Gone, 1989 
 
 Shipping Trade, Bad state of, 2344. Depression 
 of, 759. Not exceptionally depressed, 1193 
 
 Shipwrights (see also Shipbuilders). Bad state of 
 trade of, 1917 et set/. How is supply of, kept up, 
 2020. Number of, 1 972 et seq. Only employed 
 three days a week, 1983. Some would emi- 
 grate, 1940 et seq., 1986, 2006. Trade gone 
 from London, 1912. Very few apply for 
 charity in the winter, 2000. Wages and 
 number of, 1925, 1926, 2003 et seq. Wages 
 not lower, 1926, 1981
 
 Vlll 
 
 Shopkeepers (see also Tradesmen), Distress 
 amongst, 587, 591 Great depression among 
 small, 2473. S tillered, 742,743. The principal 
 suft'erers, 684. Tickets given to applicants 
 should be apportioned generally among, 2474 
 
 Shoreditch, Evidence as to, 2401 
 
 Sickness among the poor, Less, 694 
 
 Slackness the cause of want of employment, 128 
 
 Society for the Relief of Distress almoners 
 first had money from the Fund, 546. Mansion 
 House Fund and the, 9. No almoners, 337. 
 No co-operation with, 1614 
 
 Society men, in Building Trade, Easier to get em- 
 ployment for, 2049 
 
 So ho, Evidence as to, 502 
 
 Speculative Builders, nee Builders 
 
 Start' not sufficient at first, 823 
 
 Starvation Cases. 463. Did not exist, 1211. No 
 bad cases of, 1565 
 
 Stephany, Evidence of Mr. M., 2118 
 
 Stoke-on-Trent, Experiment at, 1203, 1372 
 
 Stoneyard, see Labour-yard 
 
 Streets, Cleansing of, 722 et seq., 763 et seq., 
 851 (see also Roads) 
 
 Summer, Trade bad in the, 1099 
 
 Superior class would not come forward on account 
 of crowd of ragamuffins, 212 
 
 Supervising men at work, Mode of, 1844 
 
 Temperance, Considerable progress of, 1536. 
 
 Movement, Good done by, 1434 
 Thrift (see also Benefit a'nd Friendly Societies, 
 Clubs, Savings), Applicants should show, 2238, 
 2257, 2284, 2341. Amongst applicants, Want of 
 evidence of, 211. Attempt to promote, 1275. 
 Dock labourers cannot show, 2342. Evidence 
 of, 352. Increase of, 726, 1142. Inducements 
 to, 1488 et seq. More, desirable, 2472. Ne- 
 cessity of, 2266. Test, 500, 501, 652, 663, 805, 
 883 et seq. The only remedy for chronic 
 distress, 1145 
 
 Tickets do not carry same value as money, 1988. 
 For relief were sold, 864. Issued by the 
 Fund sold in public-houses, 268, 269. Of the 
 Fund publicly exposed for sale, 268. Relief by, 
 186, 268, 269, 1222, 1223, 1450, 1504, 1506 et 
 seq., 1907, 1949, 1965. Sale of, 1966. Trades- 
 men did not always give value for, 1506 et 
 seq. 
 
 Tools, Purchase of, 2226. Redeemed from pawn, 
 2262, 2359, 2431. Were pawned in many 
 cases, 2388 
 
 Trade, Bad state of, 1353, 1482, 2252 et seq. De- 
 pressed, 908 et seq. Depression of, General, 
 2254. Depression of, might not affect artisans, 
 917. Distress caused by bad, 1096. Evidence, 
 of depression of, 115 et seq. Exceptionally 
 depressed state of, 2077,2343. Gradual decline 
 of, 2253. Improvement of, 2067, 2147, 2350, 
 2427. Leaving St. George's-in-the-East, 1193. 
 No signs of revival, 1464. Not improved. 
 2400 
 
 Trade Societies, Advisability of cases being sent 
 by, 2015. Do net care to have to do with 
 charity matters, 2086. Enquiry of, 2087 et 
 seq. Evidence as to help given by, 1664. 
 Relief given to members by, 2248, 2273. 
 Would not officially co-operate with charities, 
 2260, 2261 
 
 Trades followed by Jews, 2137. Nature of, 1481. 
 Supplemental, 1 149 < se<jr., 1166,1424,1690, 
 1691, 2007 et seq., 2091 et seq., 2297 et seq., 2453 
 et seq. 
 
 Tradesmen (see also Tickets), Did not alway 
 rive value for tickets, 1606 et seq. Give 
 
 radesmen continued. 
 
 money for tickets instead of food for which 
 issued, 268 
 
 Undeserving cases recommended as deserving, 
 344, 347 
 
 Vallance, Evidence of Mr. W., 665 
 Valpy, Evidence of Mr. R. A., 200 
 Vestries, Men employed by the Metropolitan 
 
 Public Gardens Association were sent bv the, 
 
 1768 
 
 Visitation (see also Enquiry) of cases, 497 et seq. 
 Visitors of cases not sufficiently numerous, 484 
 
 Wages (see also Work), Amount of, 1551. At 
 relief works should be adequate, 2296. De- 
 crease of, 918. Evidence as to, 119. High, 
 ensure better work, see Building Trade. 
 Higher in the Building Trade in London than 
 in the country, 1594 et seq. In the Building 
 Trade, see also Building. In Building Trade, 
 Increase of, 1671. In Building Trade, Mode of 
 fixing, 2046 et seq. In Building Trade, Rate of, 
 1596. Labour test should not lower rate of, 
 1643. Loweringof, would increase competition, 
 1602. More work in proportion done for high, 
 1710 et seq. Necessary Rate of, 1846, 1850 et 
 seq. Not reduced, 696. In the Coal Trade, 
 2319. Of Carpenters, not lowered, 2038, 2041. 
 Of Shipwrights, not lower, 1926, 1981. Of Ship- 
 wrights, Rate of, 2003 et seq. Of Women, 
 reduced, 696. Questions as to past, 643 et seq. 
 Rate, &c., of, 1727 etseq. Rate of Carpenters', 
 and hours of their work, 2059. Rate of, in 
 Building Trade, 1667. Rate of, paid by Metro- 
 politan Public Gardens Association, 1706, 1799, 
 1805 et seq. Reduction of, 569. Standard of, 
 2040. Work would not be increased by reduc- 
 tion of, 2042 
 
 Walnut Wood, Increase of value of, 2479 
 Walworth, Evidence as to, 815, 1426 
 Wandsworth, Evidence as to, 1286 
 Waterside Labourers, Cause of want of work 
 
 among, 1842 
 
 Weekly Allowances given, 368 
 Well-to-do, Migration of, 1429 
 Westbrook, Evidence of Mr. G. T., 1878 
 West Ham, Committee of the Fund at, 2275 
 Westminster, see James's, St., also Soho 
 Whitechapcl (see also East London), Evidence as 
 
 to, 665 
 Widows, Free outdoo relief to, would lower 
 
 women's wages, 747 
 Wife and Children of Drunkard, Mode of dealing 
 
 with, 2079 
 
 Wilkinson, Evidence of Miss, 1697 
 Women, Labour test for, 1177, 1217 
 Women's Wages reduced, 696. Would be lowered 
 
 by free outdoor relief to widows, 747 
 Wood, Large importation of foreign, 2477. Used 
 
 for furniture, Description of, 2478, 2479 
 Work (see also Employed, Employment, Labour, 
 Wages, &c.), Apprehended recurrence of slack- 
 ness of, 1640. Change of, in bad times, 2456. 
 Character of men engaged to do the, 1776. 
 Competition the chief cause of slack, 1682. 
 Decrease of, 729. Demand for, 2460 Demand 
 of cheap, causes depression in trade, 2463. 
 Demand for cheap, lowers character of, 2462. 
 Description of men employed at the, 1776 et 
 seq. Difficulty of getting men to do the, 1712. 
 Distress caused by want of, 599, 2135. 
 Emigration a remedy for want of, 2270. 
 Exceptionally slack, 1441. Extra, made,
 
 IX 
 
 Work cnntin ued. 
 
 1718. Given to relieve distress, 1804. Great 
 deal of out of, not being helped, 1425. 
 Greater demand for cheaper, 2445 et seq. 
 Greater number of men than necessary em- 
 ployed to do, 1764. Hours of, 1706, "1707, 
 172*7, 1752, 1805, 1814, 1818, 1861, 1862. 
 Irregular, see Dock, also Labourers, Casual. 
 Men given, mostly of the class always out of 
 work in winter, 1830 et seq. Men left their, to 
 obtain relief, see letter from Mr. Valpy, p. 15. 
 Men refused to, in order to pose as unemployed, 
 see letter from Mr. Valpy, p. 15. Mode of 
 procedure of Metropolitan Public Gardens 
 Association in providing, 1805 et seq. Mode 
 of supervising men at, 1703, 1844. More men 
 than necessary employed to do the, 1764, 
 1779, 1781, 1861. Neglected in order to par- 
 ticipate in fund, 1545. No reason given for 
 slackness of, 1537. Of fund too great for in- 
 dividual effort, 2405. Plan of Inquiry as to 
 men at, 1857 et seq. Plan of Metropolitan 
 Public Gardens Association in providing, 1697 
 et seq. Provided by the Metropolitan Public 
 Gardens Association, Description of, 1783 et seq. 
 Provided was greatly overpaid, 1708, 1738. 
 Provided would not have been offered, but for 
 the Fund, 1719. Refused by unemployed, 
 1939. Scarce in summer, 516. Scarcity of, 
 871, 918. Should be given, rather than money, 
 438. Slack, but people morally improved, 
 see People. Slack in the Building Trade, 
 1585 et xeq. Slackness of Riverside, 1864. 
 
 Work co ntlnued. 
 
 Small number accepted offer of, 970, 1032. 
 Some who refused the offer of, got drunk, 1035. 
 Want of, see also Out of Work 
 
 Workhouse full, 1069 et seq. Relief given 
 sufficient to keep applicants from the, 863. 
 Test, 1063, 2279, 2282, 2357; see also Labour 
 Test. Test, Difficulty of applying, 1212. 
 Test not applied, 1176* 
 
 Working Classes (see also Artisans, Poor, and 
 Working Men), Improvement of the condition 
 of, 726. Increase of thrift among, 726. 
 Morally rather than materially improved, 732 
 
 Working Men as members of the Committees 
 of the Fund, 234 Committee, see letter from 
 Mr. Bramly, p. 22. Know little about the 
 Poor Law, 1696. Labour-yard degrading 
 to, 1659 et seq. Members of Committee did 
 not introduce cases, 1360. Not welcomed in 
 Committees of the Fund, 2289, 2290. Popula- 
 tion composed of, 1316. Served on Committee, 
 1237, 1359, 1447. Should serve on Committee 
 of the Fund, 2084. Will not apply to the 
 Relieving Officer, 1312, 1313 
 
 Workmen, Good, applied, 2431. Description of, 
 employed, 1709. Good, had to do inferior 
 work, 2395, 2397, 2443 et se?. Many good, 
 out of work, 2421 et seq. 
 
 Works, Question as to future establishment of 
 Relief, 486, 487. Suggestions as to the Guar- 
 dians setting on foot Relief, 490 et seq. 
 
 Written Applications, see Letter
 
 [APPLICATION FORM A.* 
 .Committee. No 
 
 Date. 
 
 Nnmf. in full- 
 Address 
 
 .Time in district. 
 
 Previous Address 
 
 Age Married, 
 
 Si.ngle. 
 
 Widowed. 
 
 Occupation - 
 
 Ages of Children at home. 
 Earnings : Man 
 
 Wife. 
 
 Children 
 
 Present Means of living. 
 
 Name and Address of last Employer or Foreman. 
 
 How long out of work during last twelve months 
 
 Reference: Name and Address 
 
 Club or Trade Society 
 
 Relief from Club Parish 
 
 Weekly Rent Let off 
 
 Debts Pawn Tickets. 
 
 Time there. 
 
 Arrears. 
 
 Other Source 
 Rent due 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 Visited by 
 Rt>2>ort 
 
 Date. 
 
 N.B. Visitors will, so far as possible, verify the above statements, and report 
 especially on the state of the home and any signs of thrift. 
 
 Decision 
 
 * NOTE. At the back of this form, when printed for use, is a form of receipt, 
 with spaces for ' Date, 1 ' Relief Granted,' and Signature of Applicant.
 
 [FORM B. 
 
 INQUIRY OF EMPLOYERS. 
 
 Confidential. 
 OFFICE : 
 
 ; 18 
 
 of 
 
 who has applied to this Committee for assistance, states t?iat up to , 
 
 18 , he was in your employ as and that k weekly wages 
 
 were , that 7i left you on , 
 
 and that the cause of Jt leaving was 
 
 Will you therefore kindly inform the Committee wlietlier these statements are correct ? 
 and wliether li was steady, regular, and did h work efficiently ? 
 
 Your obedient servant, 
 
 Signature^ 
 
 [FORM C. 
 ^DISTRICT. No 
 
 RELIEF FUND. 
 
 VALUE ONE SHILLING. 
 
 FOB FOOD AND FUEL ONLY. 
 
 o'clock will receive cash. 
 
 tradesman presenting this Ticlte 
 
 -any between . an
 
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 ON THE DWELLINGS OF THE PEOPLE 
 
 CENTRAL OFFICES: 14.4, CLEMENTS INN, STRAND, W.C. 
 
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 THE RT. HON. THE LORD MAYOR. 
 
 Bice-fJresiaenrs: 
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