COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION 16 HEARING BEFORE THE MMITTEE 0^ JEEIGATION AND BECLAMATION UNITED STATES^SENATE [\COJs SIXTY-SEVENTH \CONGRESS SECOND SESSION * ON S. 3745 A BILL FOR THE CREATION OF THE COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION COMMISSION, AND AUTHORIZING AN APPROPRIATION THEREFOR JULY 10, 1922 Printed for the use of the Committee on Irrigation and Reclamation Y Or CALIFORNIA :>S ANGELES JUN 2 6 1958 LIBRARY GOVT. PUBS. ROOM 2894 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1922 COMMITTEE ON IRRIGATION AND RECLAMATION. CHARLES L. McNARY, Oregon, Chairman. WESLEY L. JONES, Washington. MORRIS SHEPPARD, Texas. LAWRENCE C. PHIPPS, Colorado. THOMAS J. WALSH, Montana. FRANK R. GOODING, Idaho. JOHN B. KENDRICK, Wyoming. RALPH H. CAMERON, Arizona. KEY PITTMAN, Nevada. TASKER L. ODDIE, Nevada. SAMUEL M. SHORTRIDGE, California. H. K. KIBFER, Clerk. II COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. MONDAY, JULY 10, 1922. UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON IRBIGATION AND RECLAMATION, Washington, D. C. The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 2.30 o'clock p. m., Senator Charles L. McNary presiding. Present: Senators McNary (chairman), Jones, Phipps, Cameron, Oddie, Shortridge. Walsh, and Kendrick. The committee thereupon proceeded to the consideration of S. 3745, which is here printed in full, as follows : "A BILLi -For the creation of the Columbia Basin Irrigation Commission and authorizing an appropriation therefor. " Be it enacted, etc., That there is hereby created a commission to be known as the Columbia Basin Irrigation Commission, said commission to consist of the following members : One member, to be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, to be a qualified irrigation expert ; one member, to be appointed by the Secretary of Agriculture, to be a qualified soil expert ; and one member, to be appointed by the Secretary of Commerce, to be a qualified transportation expert. " SEC. 2. That the said commission shall report to the Secretary of the Interior as early as possible and not later than January 1, 1923. the essential features of the proposed Columbia Basin irrigation project in the following particulars : Its water supply and the permanency and sufficiency thereof ; the approximate watershed from which said water supply is to be derived and what, if any, natural reservoirs, such as lakes, are available for the storing of surplus waters for the said land ; the character of the climate as it affects the agricultural development of the said land ; the transportation facilities available therefor ; the prospects and means of settlement ; the engineering features of the proposed project, stating point of diversion of the water to be used in the said project and from what streams; the principal dam or dams which may be needed therefor and the general location, nature, length, and character of such aqueducts or canals as may be necessary for conveying the water to the lands to be irrigated thereby ; the cost and feasibility from an engineering and physical standpoint of such work as may be required to accomplish the purposes of the said project, both in the aggregate and the ultimate cost per acre to the land to be benefited thereby; and the views of the commission as to the general benefits to be derived from the completion of the said project in the way of markets for manufactured products, of increased agricultural production, of opportunities for home building, and the effect of the same, both upon the communities immediately affected and upon the Nation at large, and such other matters as in the judgment of the said commission may be of importance and pertinent to the proposed development. " SKC. .">. That for the purpose of carrying out the prov'sions of this a<-t there is hereby authorized an appropriation, from any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, of the sum of $100 .MO. to be expended under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior by s:iid commission in making siirii investigation, studies. Miid report." 1 2 COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. The CHAIRMAN. The committee, gentlemen, will now take up S. :'.74.""> intro- duced by Senator Poindexter : and I have here and I shall read a letter from the Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Fall, dated July 3, 1922. [Heading:] DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, \\'tixhini, .Inhi J. J!U.>. Hon. CHARLES L. MC-XARY, Chairman Committee on Irrigation ensive. I would imagine that the power question would be more or less a gradual development, so far as its completion was concerned. Senator WALSH. No; there are applications now before the Water Power Commission for the development of that power, and I was wondering whether you had in mind possibly a combination under which the water-power develop- ment-would go on under the jurisdiction of the Water Power Commission, acting conjointly with the Reclamation Service, which would undertake this work of reclamation. Senator POINDEXTER. Frankly. Senator, my view about the matter was ilia' in the first place we ought to get a report giving an authoritative final conclu- sion as to the project itself, to include. I think, under the language of this reso- lution, the details of the project, the methods of development and very likely the report itself will contain recommendations as to such matters as you speak of; but if it did not, that would be the time for Congress, it seems to me. to take up the matter in connection with the question of whether it would authori/.e the project and what use it would make of its by-products. Senator PHIPPS. I notice the land is all in the State of Washington. Senator POINDEXTKR. Yes. Senator JONES. Did yon state. Senator, how much the State has spent V Senator POINDEXTER. The State has spent $150,000. and in addition to that $150,000, private parties, individuals in Spokane chiefly, have contributed about $50.000. Senator WALSH. What relation does this bear to the Priest Rapids project? Senator POINDEXTER. It does not bear any relation to that at all : that is LMK) miles farther down the Columbia River. The CHAIRMAN. I thought a part of this project extended into Idaho and Montana. Senator WALSH. What they mean, undoubtedly, I assume, is that the water supply is located in Idaho and Montana. Director DAVIS. The diversion dam is in Idaho and the water in Montana. Senator POINDEXTER. It may very well be true; that is probably what is meant. I do not think there is any land covered by the project that is located in Idaho or Montana. The CHAIIIMAN. The language of the Secretary's report is: "To examine and report upon what is known as the Columbia basin irrigation project, located in the States of Montana. Idaho, and Washington." Director DAVIS. The diversion works and dams are located in those States. hut the land is none of it outside of Washington. Senator KENDRICK. Senator Poindexter, do you propose taking tho principal supply of water from the Columbia? Senator POINDEXTER. From a branch of the Culumhia. the Pend Oreillo. Senator KKNDRICK. It comes from a va-=t watershed which Senator Walsh is very familiar with. Part of it comes from the glaciers and snow mountains of the ({lacier National Park. Senator PHIPPS. May I express a little surprise that after those expenditures, aggregating $200,000, already made are to determine the possibilities and the COLUMBIA BASIX IRRIGATION. 5 feasibility of this project, that it is still found necessary to make a further large expenditure? Senator POIXDEXTER. I had the same feeling, but Mr. Davis can tell you about the need of expenditures in preliminary work. I confess it was at first surpris- ing to me. Personally, I am already convinced, but we have got to convince a great many people, and we have to convince Congress in a most conclusive way in order to justify payments which will involve the expenditure perhaps of several hundred million dollars. The engineers, as Mr. Davis will tell you, have a certain percentage of the cost of a project which they think is reasonable to allow for preliminary investigation, and I think it would run up into much more than has been proposed here. I heard an oral statement of one of the engineers who was upon the commis- sion appointed by the State of Washington and, knowing the terrain as I did, having hunted and fished over these rivers and lakes and ridden over the land to be irrigated, I could understand him very clearly, and it was quite enthrall- ing and entrancing to hear the development as he unfolded it of this project from an engineering standpoint ; and while, of course, his word is not the final word, it is exceedingly convincing. General Goethals is not only favorable in his report, but in talking with him he is very enthusiastic about it. He feels that there is not any question about its feasibility. Of course, before starting in upon the work there has got to be an immense amount of preliminary engineering done in order to know how to do it, even after committing yourself to the proposition. Senator KENDRICK. What is the character of the land to be reclaimed? Senator POINDEXTEK. It is reported to be of the highest class ; it is reported as equal to the Yakima I do not know whether Senator Jones will admit that. Senator JONES. Yes; equal to it. Senator POINDEXTER. There are about 400,000 acres in what is called the Quincy Flat, which, while perfectly smooth, is not altogether level, but has just a slight grade, which would be of great advantage in the flow of water over it. It is a beautiful thing to look at and land of unquestionable fertility and un- questionably fine climate. One advantage of this project is that a great deal of this country to be irri- gated is not entirely arid but merely semiarid, and the framework of the social organization and settlement is already there. There are towns in this great wheat area, and in places there has been irrigation developed where they have gotten a little water and demonstrated the fertility of the soil and its adapta- bility to various kinds of agriculture. Senator KENDRICK. W T ould reclamation involve drainage or would you be able to avoid that expense? Senator POINDEXTER. I should say, offhand, that in general the drainage is un- usually good on account of the land, generally speaking, being upon a high plateau with ravines draining into the Columbia Riyer. Senator JONES. You would have the development of an irrigation system in connection with that. In fact, I doubt whether there are very many reclama- tion projects which should not have an irrigation system along with them. The CHAIRMAN. Whom would you call next? Senator POINDEXTER. \Ve would like to have Director Davis now to address the committee. STATEMENT OF DIRECTOR ARTHUR P. DAVIS, RECLAMATION SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR. Director DAVIS. The Columbia Basin project includes about 1,753,000 acres in the State of Washington, as just stated, for which there is an abundance of water supply if properly regulated: and those two tilings are fairly accurately known, within the accuracy necessary to determine feasibility certainly, but the problem of getting the water to the land is large and complicated, because it is a vast enterprise. While investigations of a more or less preliminary nature have already been made as described and more than $100,000 spent on those investigations, they have included a great deal of valuable data. But. that manifestly could not be sufficient to determine any except the cursory, rougher facts surrounding the proposition. COLUMBIA BASIX IRRIGATION. It is generally the case that a large project, with large engineering problems involved, requires something like 1 per cent of the cost of the project to be devoted to the investigation of different alternatives and detailed surveys, so that estimates can he made of the cost, and they can not he very accurate nor any of the facts be very thoroughly brought out without very much larger expenditure than has yet been made on this project. Senator KENDRICK. Mr. Director, may I interrupt you? Director DAVIS. Certainly. Senator KENDKICK. It was to ask this question : Is it not true that the pre- liminary investigation that would IK- made here would apply with a good deal of direct service in the final reclamation of the project? Would it not be use- ful in the reclamation of the project? Director DAVIS. In the reclamation of this project? Senator KENDRICK. Yes. Director DAVIS. Certainly. What has been done by the engineers already, and what is to be done under the provisions of this bill, would be necessary In carrying on the project anyway. Senator KENDBICK. In other words, the information would be along the line you would to have in reclaiming the land? Director DAVIS. Oh yes; absolutely. It is absolutely necessary, in advance of making wise plans for any project, to determine these engineering facts. They have been determined in a large way only, and the details have not been gone into because of lack of time and money. I do not mean to imply that it would take anything like 1 per cent of the total cost of this project, which would be $2,000,000 or $3,000,000. One per cent of the total amount would be that much, but that is more than 20 times as much as has now been spent, and further information is absolutely essential to determine the main features with the accuracy that is desirable and to get the project in the shape that will be necessary in order to present it to the Congress. Senator JONES. Do you think $100,000 would be sufficient to do that? Director DAVIS. No, sir; I think it would go a long ways toward it. The probabilities are that some further investigations would develop information as to the necessary further expense ; that would be my expectation. I do not make that as a prediction, simply a guess. Senator JONES. How much do you really think would be sufficient to secure the data necessary to make a report upon which Congress would be justified in acting? Director DAVIS. That is a difficult thing to say, with the state of my infor- mation. Personally, I have not had much to do with these investigations. I have ridden over the project and seen the main points of construction. But 1 think it is very likely that an additional amount of at least as much as $100,000 would be necessary after this is expended, but that can not be said with certainty at the present time because the developments of facts will answer that question a great deal better than I can at the present time. The CHAIBMAN. Then, I understand, Director Davis, this is not the final sum that. will be needed to complete this investigation. Director DAVIS. I know that if the Reclamation Service was undertaking this project we would want more than $100,000 for the examination. The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you regarding the Secretary's report : If section 1 should be amended so as to include the salaries of the commission, do you think that should come out of the $100,000 or will the different departments furnish men to make the survey without charge upon the sum? Director DAVIS. I have no information or assurance that any department could do that under the law, unless the bill were mandatory upon the point. Appropriations are made for certain purposes. The Reclamation Service is the only appropriation with which I am thoroughly familiar. You could not, under the present laws, detail an expert to this work and pay him out of the Reclamation fund. I think that is a question, though, that is open to some debate. The Secretary might think otherwise. But in view of his report, I think he takes the same view. Senator JONES. You probably could not take funds out of the Reclamation appropriation and divert that money for this purpose? Director DAVIS. No. The CHAIRMAN. That same thing would not apply to the Department of Commerce and the other departments? COLUMBIA BASIX IRRIGATION. 7 Director DAvrs. No. There is this to be said : Probably the Secretary's pur- pose was to get an authorization from Congress as to how much these men were to be paid, because there is no doubt the $100,000 would be available to pay this commission. I would not think it would have to come out of any other appropriation if the bill is passed just as written, but the fixing of those salaries may be what the Secretary had in mind. The CHAIRMAN. And leave the responsibility to Congress. Senator JONES. What suggestion would you make, Director, as to the salary of the experts? Director DAVIS. For the information of the committee, I will state this : The Reclamation Service has detailed to the examination of the Columbia Basin a consulting engineer, D. C. Henny, who has been in consultation with the Columbia Basin Commission in their work, and has also been a member of a commission appointed acting under the authority of the Water Power Com- mission. They studied the basin at large, and a commission, composed of a member of the Reclamation Service, Mr. Henny, a member of the Corps of En- gineers, a representative of the Geological Survey ; and there are also repre- sentatives of the States of Washington, Montana, and Idaho. The engineer that we appointed to that work received a salary of $30 a day. The CHAIKMAX. That would be about $9,000 a year? Director DAVIS. Approximately, yes. And I am of the opinion that the salaries at a less amount could not, as a financial proposition, command the proper talent for determining this question. Senator WALSH. If it were not for the suggestion of the Secretary in this regard. I would leave it just exactly as it is and let the Secretary hire the man whom he thinks will do the work best and make a bargain with him the best he can do. Director DAVIS. That would be all right, except that three Secretaries are involved and the question is not clear. Senator WALSH. That is another matter that ought to have our attention. One member of the commission is to be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, who is to be a qualified irrigation expert. Of course, on a project of this kind an engineer is absolutely essential ; but as we understand the term " irrigation expert " out in our country, he need not be an engineer at all ; an irrigation expert with us is a man who knows how to use water for the purpose of irrigation, and not a man who knows how to construct an irriga- tion plant he is an engineer. I should think that would be an irrigation engineer instead of irrigation expert. Director >AVIS. I suppose it is intended in a broad sense here, though. Senator POINDEXTER. It says " irrigation expert " ; you might substitute " engineer." Senator KENDKICK. Mr. Director, is not the time too limited there to make that survey and report January 21. 1923? The CHAIRMAN. The House is not in session. Director DAVIS. I had not noticed that. That is certainly too short a time. I am inclined to think that is an inadvertence ; that probably means 1924. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Poindexter, let we draw your attention to this : " That the said commission shall report to the Secretary of the Interior as early as possible, and not later than January 1, 1923." Do you intend that for 1924? Senator POINDEXTER. I intended it to read just as it is, with the thought that the question would come up and that it would be adjusted in accordance with whatever showing might be made here. Senator JONES. We would like to get the report as soon as possible. Senator POINUEXTER. It does not say final report; it might be a preliminary report they might make. But the idea is to keep the thing up as much as possible to prevent its dragging out indefinitely. If they find they can not con- clude their investigations by that time they can report to that effect. Senator PHIPPS. If you will read the bill, I think you will decide that the items to be reported upon are rather specific by the time stated they must give the information on certain points. The thing to do is to change the date. The CHAIKMAN. It says "report on the essential features." Senator POINDKXTKK. I have no objection to changing the date, if you do not put it off too long. Director DAVIS. Would it not accomplish the purpose by leaving out the words "Not. later than January 1, 1923" ? 8 rOLUMMIA 15ASIN IRRIGATION. Senator POINDKXTKH. You might put in " January 21, 1923, or as soon there- after as possible." Senator .IONKS. Why not make it July 1. 1!>1'.">V Director DAVIS. That would be right in the middle of the season, if any field work were being done. January 1 is a much more appropriate time for such a report, after the field work is done. Senator JONES. Do you not think they can make a report by January 1? Director DAVIS. They can do it by .January 1. T.rJ4. Senator JONES. We want to fix a time within which this report should come in. Senator PHIPPS. How would September 1 do? Director DAVIS. That would be better than July. Senator PHIPPS. I can appreciate the Senator's reasons for wanting to have it as soon as possible. We can not tret the House's action <>n this before the 1st of September, at the very earliest. I do not know whether you can work during the winter. Director DAVIS. We can do a good deal of work during the winter, but it is not as advantageous as during the summer. I think the Columbia River Com- mission had $100,000 and occupied more than a year, and I think certainly they did an expeditious job. This appropriates the same amount of money and ought to involve a similar amount of work, and there is certainly plenty of work to do. Senator PHIPPS. The water power possibility is quite a feature in this, it seems to me, referring to the question raised by the Senator from Montana. How many dams have already been made on this I 'end Oreille River? Director DAVIS. I could not tell you how many. Senator PHIPPS. There is a point. I presume, where it is supposed to divert this water. Director DAVIS. There is one down below there at what is called / Canyon, and there are a number above, as Senator Walsh pointed out. in Montana. There are some applications up there. Senator WALSH. Yes; but there are no appropriations. Senator PHIPPS. It is seated that the annual flow of that stream is about 19,000,000 acre-feet, and just about a third is supposed to be diverted. Is that likely to cause any trouble with the people down below on the stream who, presumably, already have some established water rights or tilings that they could claim would be interfered with by this diversion? Director DAVIS. I do not know of any established water rights that this would interfere with. Some people might claim their schemes were being interfered with for the future. There is a very large flow at I'asco. Senator W T ALSH. That need not concern anybody, but because their rights would be prior it would be necessary to let enough water come down to supply their needs. Senator PHIPPS. That comes back to the other feature. And then I was going to ask about the seasonal flow of this stream. Is it the regular run -off, or is it the flood season? Director DAVIS. It requires storage reservoirs, and there are very large sites for that purpose, and they are included in the preliminay estimates. It is necessary to provide for the storage of flood water to hold it in reserve for the summer when needed. Senator PHIPPS. From a cursory examination of this report, I take it that the flood waters would be stored and would be depended upon for the purpose of irrigation. But that is one of the problems, as you know, that comes in right along, as to its dependability and its interference with other established rights on the stream. Director DAVIS. The established rights on the Columbia are relatively very small. It is the largest river in the arid region, and one of the largest rivers from point of flow in the United States. I do not know but what there is only one other with a larger flow, the Mississippi. tha f discharges more water. Senator PHIPPS. What are the prior rights in Washington: do they recognize beneficial use of water? Director DAVIS. The laws of Washington are different west of the mountains than east of them. East of the mountains they recognize beneficial use of water; west of the mountains the riparian doctrine applies. Senator PHIPPS. Do you think riparian rights would apply in this case? Director DAVIS. I think no riparian rights would apply here, and there is relatively little use of this river, while there are considerable areas irrigated from it and power developed. COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. , 9 Senator FHIPPS. This is east of the Cascade range? Director DAVIS. Yes. Senator JONES. The courts have held riparian rights apply, but I think it has been modified. But they did declare for riparian rights in the case of the Yakima project. Senator WALSH. Is not that the. California doctrine as distinguished from the Colorado doctrine? Senator GIMME. Is not this a unique proposition in regard to the drainage having a river to drain into compared to the other projects? Can you recall any other project that has a river to drain into? Director DAVIS. Oh. yes ; most of them do, eventually. This is a river to drain into, but the great bulk of this land is a long distance from the river. Senator ODDIE. Yes; but I would consider that an immediate advantage. I know of some where the water drains into a sink and the water level gradu- ally raises and in time will be a detriment; but this, I should say, has a dis- tinct advantage as compared to other projects. Director DAVIS. In the Boise project they drain into the Boise River ; and in the Minidoka project into the Snake River; and most of them drain into the rivers which are not far away. This will drain into the Columbia also. The CHAIRMAN. These engineers have been doing the work on the project. Are you familiar with it? Director DAVIS. I am in a general way. Pasco was mentioned. Pasco has an irrigated area, but relative to the Columbia, it is very small; and at that point the Columbia is a very large river, compared with the Pend Oreille, and all of the waters that would pass out of the Pend Oreille would go down there as well. In my judgment it will be absolutely impossible from any engi- neering standpoint to ever utilize more than a minor fraction of the Columbia River waters in irrigation. Senator KENDRICK. I can understand how that will be true by looking at that river. I do not believe they will find land enough within the drainage area on which they can place that water to advantage. Senator PHIPPS. Was this Columbia River Basin ever listed by the Recla- mation Service as one of the feasible and desirable projects for the regular reclamation work? Director DAVIS. We have that included in the irrigable area whenever we have submitted reports. The CHAIRMAN. Is it your idea that if the reclamation bill, now pending before the Congress, should become a law that this project can be completed out of that fund? Director DAVIS. That depends upon the way in which it passes. I was asked that question in the State of Washington. At that time the pending bill carried $250.000,000, which was less that the estimated cost of this project and, of course, was not sufficient. But since then it has been increased to $350,000,000 appropriation. Senator JONES. It is a revolving fund, too, is it not? Director DAVIS. Yes ; it is a revolving fund. Senator SHOKTRIDGE. At what point, Mr. Director, is the water to be di- verted ? Director DAVIS. The map shows the point, right where the Pend Oreille crosses the Idaho-Washington line. The diversion works are in Idaho, but just across the line. Senator PHIPPS. What distance is that water carried from that diversion point to the main bodies of land; do you recall the figures? Director DAVIS. The first point, down to Hillcrest. the distance is about 140 miles. Of course, the main body of the land is still farther west. Senator PHIPPS. Is it going to be necessary to make this division all the way. <>r will they use some of the drainage of streams to carry the water? Director DAVIS. There are different streams. There are a number of long tunnels. There are tire or six dams which form small reservoirs, at which the water will be discharged into the upper end and taken out at the lower end. and for short, distances lliey use natural drainage in that way. Senator Pmpp.s. .Most of the way there must be excavation and sirtilicial channels'? Director DAVIS. Yes. sir. And in every case where natural drainage lines are used, it is necessary to build impounding works to use them. Tlie < 'IIAIUM AX. Senator I'oindexter, whom will yon next call? 10 COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. Senator POINDEXTKK. I would now like to call .Mr. .1. ('. Ralston. I will state that Mr. Ralston is an engineer of distinction and has been connected with the work carried on by the State of Washington. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ralston. wi> will be glad to hear you. Please give your name in full to the reporter. STATEMENT OF MB. J. C. RALSTON, SPOKANE, WASH. Mr. RALSTON. My name is J. C. Ralston; my address, Spokane. Wash. Senator WALSH. Let me understand what the purpose of having this trans- portation expert is. What is he supposed to do? Senator POINDEXTER. That was the suggestion of the Secretary of the In- terior. I suppose his idea was that the question of the proximity of this region to the markets and the desirability of the project from a commercial standpoint might enter into it. Senator KENDRICK. Do you believe it is necessary to have the Secretary of Agriculture determine who an appointee is to decide whether yours is an agri- cultural State or not? Senator POINDEXTER. No ; I am ready to decide that now. Senator WALSH. Director Davis, what do you understand by this " trans- portation expert"? Director DAVIS. I do not know anything about what was in the mind of those who drew the bill, but I thought the idea was to have an impartial commission representing three different departments who would represent the different activities ; and the only explanation I think of is the one given by Senator Poindexter. The CHAIRMAN. Is not this particular project served by three continental railroads? Director DAVIS. Yes, sir ; four. The CHAIRMAN. And the Columbia River is navigable? Director DAVIS. Yes, sir. Senator POINDEXTER. There are practically four continental roads : The Northern Pacific, the O. R. & N., the Great Northern, and the Milwaukee. Senator WALSH. The Great Northern is not nearer than Spokane. The CHAIRMAN. I think the O. R. & N. was the name of the original line on the south bank of the Columbia. On the north bank is a branch of the Northern Pacific, built by Hill, down the Columbia River, in order to avoid the mountain haul. Senator JONES. We think we have built a road out there, Senator, the Oregon-Washington Railway & Navigation Co., that has its own line up to Spokane. In addition to that, we have the Great Northern that runs right through this project. We have the Northern Pacific and we have the Mil- waukee that is four. Senator WALSH. The Great Northern runs through it? Senator POINDEXTER. Absolutely, right through the heart of it ; some of the most important land on the project, in fact, runs right through the great Quincy Valley. ^Senator KENDRICK. In additiqn to all that, you have the navigation in the river V Senator POINDEXTEH. Absolutely. Mr. RALSTON. I have been familiar with this territory for twenty-odd year-. roughly familiar with this particular general project for 10 years, and spe- cifically and definitely and technically familiar with it since 1910. The CHAIRMAN. Does the record show your profession and where your activities have been directed during the last year? Mr. RALSTON. I have been consulting engineer for all the period of which I have spoken, and consulting engineer for the Columbia Basin Irrigation Commission from its inception until it was taken over and became a definite function of the State. Senator WALSH. Will you tell us what this Columbia Basin Irrigation Com- mission is? Mr. RALSTON. It was a commission of five or six gentlemen who were chosen by the governor of the State to represent the State in the expenditure of an appropriation of $100,000, afterwards augmented by $50.000, for the purpose of preparing, or causing to be prepared, a report to be submitted to the gov- ernor on the project in general. I think I may say this, to be as brief as possible ; as you gentlemen already have a fairly representative syllabus of this situation as given by Senator COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. 11 Poindexter and supplemented by Director Davis: In a word, it is proposed to irrigate something less than 2,000,000 acres of irrigable land, the water to be derived from a branch of the Columbia River, the low-water flow of which is three times greater than the maximum amount of water which will be de- manded .by this project when it is in complete full operation. The supply of that water, as you have already been told, comes from a drainage area the eastern ends of which extend up to the Continental Divide. The supply, therefore, may be regarded as not only sufficient but entirely dependable in every regard. In the courses of these larger rivers coming down and flowing into the pro- posed storage basin and equalizing the lakes which now happily exist, certain powers may be developed, applications for some of which I understand have been made. Fortunately, in this situation, the conditions in the field are such that that power can be developed entirely independent of any irrigation work, and the water to be diverted into these lands will have flowed through all power plants that may ever be constructed. So that any regulatory works that may be put in or equalizing dams will only go toward assisting in the ultimate development of the power in question. Thus it would seem that there could be no controversy as between irrigation on the one side and power 011 the other. The matter of the diversion of this water from the State line between Washington and Idaho is at a point called Albany Falls on the river, a nat- ural diversion point, as the water falls over a ledge of rock there. You may stand on the banks or on any of the highlands along the river and see the bedrock revealed throughout the entire cross section of that proposed diver- sion. It would therefore seem that so far as any further investigation is con- cerned, necessary for further work, that at that point at least, would De unnecessary. From that point down 140 miles, the point referred to by Di- rector Davis, the point at which the lines will begin to diverge and distribute themselves over the areas, is made up of a series of natural and usual type of ditch, though exceptionally large; a series of natural ponds to be created, it is true, by an impounding dam at the logical outlet to each area, and of a series of tunnels, together with a substantial length of natural channel and natural interconnected lakes. So that by the clearing out of those natural channels you have a measurable proportion of the total conduit already constructed. From the point of diversion at Hillcrest, referring to the map I hold in my hand, which shows the upper northeast corner of the 1,753,000 acres to be irrigated the whole area, speaking in general terms and I take the liberty of presenting it in this way it may clarify these questions of drainage and accessibility from the standpoint of the delivery of water : This area specifically lies on the Columbia River Plateau. That plateau may be likened to the roof of a house ; the upper edge is the escarpment at Spokane, the lower edge of which is the Columbia River and .the Snake River. The fall from the upper end of this area to its lower drip end there [indicating] is between 1,200 and 1,400 feet in a distance of from 90 to 120 miles across that area. That will give you some rough notion of the gradient inherently within the project which may be taken advantage of for the purpose, if there is to be any arti- ficial drainage at all, and to supplement and make it feasible. One part of the area does require definite drainage works. These works have already been estimated. That, then, may be said to be, very briefly, the physical phases of the situation. There are four transcontinental railroads passing this area. It is to-day, while crossed by these roads, nevertheless a sagebrush desert, speaking in general terms. While it is true dry farming has been attempted on parts of it, yet if an average yield of five to seven bushels of grain to the acre year in and year out were obtained, I think the farmers would be very happy indeed. There are very many lean years when they do not even get that. Senator KENDRICK. Is it proposed in this description to pump all of this water to the higher levels? Mr. RALSTON. No pumping will be necessary ; it is all gravity. There was a suggestion which came up involving pumping, but that was found to be unfeasible, and so was rejected. The report of the original commission ap- pointed by the governor, seeking to satisfy all inquiries, covered not only the pumping project of the Columbia, but another gravity system from the foothills 12 COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. of the Cascades, together also with this project ; and in that way they em- bodied that pumping system and idea. The economic side of it is merely, in its last cold analysis, the creation of a continuing asset which will yield every two years gross- when it is ;i!l in culti- vation as much as the entire capital investment in the project: and will yield probably in every 12 years or less net MS much MS the entire investment. The CHAIKM AN. The project, as I recall it, contemplates the expenditure <>f practically $200 an acre. That was based upon war prices, I understand. Do you think there has been a material recession from that figure? Mr. RALSTON. A very material one. I sat in in the making of that estimate. and we sought everywhere the peak of that time. The CHAIBM.VX. Can you give a fair estimate of the probable cost per acre at this time? Mr. RALSTON. My judgment is. in the light of the present and the costs as they are now, and based upon the fact that a large part of my work is given over to the preparation of bids and cost estimates for contractors actually in business, that this project now at the present time will cost somewhere in the vicinity of $125 an acre. The CHAIRMAN. In the light of the survey you have made of this project and the time given to.it, do you think it is necessary that the Secretary of Com- merce should place a qualified transportation expert on the work? Mr. RALSTON. I have been a little vague on that, Senator, excepting in this. unless there be a question of colonization. If you have in mind something of that kind, then possibly the subject of transportation will be involved. But even then it would be secondary. The CHAIRMAN. Is there any question about the study of the soil in this project? Mr. RALSTON. A very complete soil survey has been made by the State com- mission, of which I spoke, at the time of the preparation of the report which has been submitted. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think it would be helpful to have the Secretary of Agriculture appoint a soil expert? Mr. RALSTON. Such a man would, of course, be of assistance at least in an advisory way, I should imagine. The CHAIRMAN. The character of the soil, its composition and plant food content, is well known, is it not? Mr. RALSTON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And it runs about the same all through that project, does it not? Mr. RALSTON. Yes, speaking in general terms. Its texture is the same-- though it varies in different localities, as in the Yakima project. But broadly speaking, the fertility of the soil seems to be well known. Senator KKNDRICK. As having direct bearing upon the feasibility of the pro- ject, I would like to ask you what is the value of your irrigated land in that section of the country, that is now in cultivation and for which yon have markets? Mr. RALSTON. The nearest large area is the famous Yakima area, the values of which run all the way from $300 to $2,000 an acre, and possibly more. The CHAIRMAN. Those larger figures are covered now with bearing fruit trees? Mr. RALSTON. It is true they are producing. I understood the Senator to mean the cultivated soil. Senator KENDRICK. No, I mean the soil in cultivation and improved. Senator WALSH. Mr. Ralston, when you give us the figure of $125 an acre or $200 an acre, do yon make any allowance at all for the water power develop- ment? Mr. RALSTON. In neither direction. I think the water power would come along and take care of itself when there was a market for it. Senator WALSH. No, that is not the point at all. In order to store the water, either in the Flathead lakes or in Lake Pend Oreille. yon have got to put enormous dams in. Take Flathead Lake; you would be obliged to flood a great area of lands that are now highly productive. Mr. K.M.STON. Yes, sir. Senator WAI.SM. And, of course, that would involve a very considerable ex- pense to acquire that land. And then you have got to put in dams. In order to complete the power plant, all you have got to do is to put in the development station. So that the construction necessary to store the water, goes a long COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. 13 ways toward the development of a water power plant. Do these figures rep- resent the actual costs there will be, without any deduction whatever for the power development? Mr. UALSTON. It represents all of those costs which would be involved in the making of the necessary works Senator WALSH (interposing). That does not answer my question at all. Senator POINDEXTEB. You understand Senator Walsh's question? He wants to know if you have offset against the cost the value of the power development? Mr. RALSTON. No. Senator POINUEXTER. I understand they have not done that. Senator PHIPPS. What power possibility would there be in connection with this dam below the'FIathead Lake? Of course, it is understood when talking of that that you do not take water out from the lakes, but take it out below. But how much drop would there be down to the canal at that point, or what drop from there down? Senator WALSH. The diversion canal is hundreds of miles below. Senator PHIPPS. I understand that. Senator WALSH. There would be no loss in the water in utilizing it for power purposes; it would just simply go back into the river and then be utilizable. Senator PHIPPS. What drops can you get at the dam or what drops from there down that could be utilized ; that is, whether that has been taken into account ? Senator WALSH. The level of Flathead Lake is about 3,500 feet, and these lands are what elevation? Mr. RALSTON. One thousand seven hundred feet and less. Senator KKNDRICK. What would you consider the advantages of the investiga- tion, if made under the Reclamation Service or if made through a commission? Mr. RALSTON. I do not know, sir, about that ; it would depend entirely upon the type of men, whether on the part of the reclamation people or on the part of a separate commission. Senator SHORTRIDGE. Senator Poindexter, pursuing that talk, why a separate commission? Are there not now instrumentalities of the Government that could make this investigation and furnish the sought-for and desired information? Senator POINDEXTER. That is possibly true, but it is a project of such magni- tude. Senator, that it would overwhelm the existing bureaus and commissions. They would have to reorganize themselves to undertake a work of this kind, and it was upon consultation particularly with Secretary Fall, and Senator Jones, and myself that considered the desirability of treating this, on account of its size, along with such projects as the Colorado Basin project, as an in- dependent thing. Of course, it will operate and will have to operate with the assistance and advice of the Reclamation Service and of any other bureaus of the Government that are available. Senator SHORTRIDGE. There would be no clash or overlapping of work? Senator POINDEXTER. Not at all. It is the very earnest wish on the part of everybody connected with it to avoid anything of that kind. Senator JONES. It is not really contemplated that this commission should actually construct the work; this commission should investigate and report to Congress. Senator WALSH. Well. Senator, this provides for the appointment of one mem- ber of this commission by the Secretary of the Interior, the appointment of one member by the Secretary of Agriculture, and the appointment of a third mem- ber by the Secretary of Commerce. The Reclamation Service has obviously learned a whole lot by the experience of lid years, and I am sure they would be willing to put their information and experience at the disposal of this commis- sion. But when the commission is appointed, they will do as they please in spending this $100.000. and they may or may not hire an engineer and conduct their own work without paying very much attention to the Reclamation Service. Senator POIXDKXTER. There would be one man appointed by the Secretary of the Interior. Senator WALSH. That is all the control he would have over him. After he appoints him. that is the end of it; it is not even done under his supervision. I was wondering why we should not just simply authorize the Secretary of the Interior to conduct this investigation. Then if he needs a soil expert he can easily -et one on the recommendation of the Secretary of Agriculture, and if he needs a transportation expert one of those could be found. Senator Poixnr.xm:. One of (lie objects of bringing other departments of the Government into it was to broaden the investigation and get all the possible 14 COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. , viewpoints. There are many aspects of the question that go beyond the mere matter of the work itself, and. of course, what you say about irrigation is equally applicable to the Department of Agriculture, when it comes to usage to which this project will be put, in case it should be built; and then the question of the commercial development of it afterwards it equally within the special knowledge of the Department of Commerce. Senator WALSH. Then, why not make these three secretaries the commission? Senator POINDKXTER. I have no objection to that; in fact, to tell the truth, that was my original suggestion. This subsequent suggestion was by the Sec- retary of the Interior, for whom I have great respect and want to work in harmony with him. Senator JONES. At the suggestion of Senator Walsh, who refers to having this done under the Secretary of the Interior, it strikes me that suggestion is a very good one, and then let the Secretary use such means as lie deems wise to carry it on. Senator WALSH. I do not see why you want to take it out from under his supervision. Senator POINDEXTER. I would raise no question about that. It is a question of means to the end, and if the committee would like to consign it to the Secretary of the Interior it would be entirely agreeable to me. Senator KENDRICK. It would be the more practical and direct way of ap- proaching it. Senator POINDEXTER. Very probably. Senator SHORTRIDGE. In order to develop those ideas, I am inclined to agree with Senator Walsh. Senator POINDEXTER. Next I will ask the committee to hear from a gentleman who has been very generally referred to as the father of this project, Mr. E. F. Elaine. STATEMENT OF MB. E. F. ELAINE, SEATTLE, WASH. Mr. ELAINE. I believe this is the first time in the history of reclamation in the United States where a State for an investigation of a project has put up such a large sum of money as $150,000. It so happens that some four years ago I appealed to the finance committee of the Legislature of the State of Washington to make the first appropriation of $100,000. That money has been properly expended, and it has shown a condition to exist out in the Northwest in the State of Washington, to which sooner or later the attention of the whole Nation is bound to be called. The situation, however, is not free from its difficulties. I know from long experience in reclamation that a cost of $145 an acre and that is the cost estimated by Major General Goethals is a high acre cost. But there are elements out there which, if properly controlled, will tend greatly to reduce that acre cost. The Senator from Montana has already called attention to the thought I have in mind, that in some manner or other the hydroelectric development of the Pend Oreille River, equalized by dams at the Flathead and Pend Oreille Lakes, should bear a certain burden of this cost. Flathead Lake is some 800 or 900 feet above Pend Oreille Lake, the waters from Flathead Lake flow through Flathead River into the Pend Oreille Lake, and between these two lakes it is estimated that about 900,000 horsepower of hydroelectric energy can be developed. Senator PHIPPS. Did you say 900,000? Mr. ELAINE. Yes, nearly a million horsepower can be developed between those two -points. That is power that can be generated by the waters of Montana. There is a matter of adjustment between Montana and the other States interested in those waters. That power, without any question, will be de- veloped somewhere between Flathead Lake and Pend Oreilte Lake. It will be geographically nicely situated for distribution. Your attention has been called to the fact that the flow of the Pend Oreille River, as averaged by years, is 19,000.000 acre-feet, and it will only take five or six million acre-feet to irrigate the 2,000.000 acres of land in the Big Bend of the Columbia, leaving a large amount of water still unused. There are two ways of using that water. You can allow it to flow on down the Pend Oreille River and go over the falls at Metaline. where there is a very great drop in the Columbia River; and then go. on into British Columbia COLUMBIA BASIN 1RBIGATION. 15 through drops in the river there, where there may in the future be electrical development. But in connect' on with the diversion rf the water at Albany Falls, all of tlu> water can. MS a matter cf fact, be brought to Spokane and dropped into the Spokane River, the Spokane River having from the city of Spokane to the Columbia a drop of 1.000 feet or more. Already There are controlling works on that stream to take care of the flood, and if this additional water was broutrht there an:l put through the present works and other works the develop- ment along the Spokane River and the'drops in the canals, in addition to the deve'opment between the two lakes I hav^ mentioned, would equal nearly anrther million horsepower of hydroelectric energy. In my judgment, vbis liydroelectr'c energy that is developed by the waters of the river below Fend Oreille Lake should be in some way or other associated with the 2,000.000 acres of land to be reclaimed, because there is no question that the reclamation of these 2.000,000 acres of land is going to result in one of the most intense developments anywhere in the known world. It is going to be as intense, in my mind, as that of the Yakima Valley, and I am very familiar with conditions in the Yakima Valley. I have been associated with that development for 2O years, been instrumental in the settlement of those lands, and I know the size of farms in the Yakima Valley to-day is some 22 acres under the Sunnyside Canal. Through the whole valley the size of the irrigated farms is not much higher than that. In the Wenatchee Valley the size of the fruit tracts only- run about 10 acres. But in the intense development of this project there is going to be some very large cities. In my judgment, the second city of the Northwest will probably be within this project, because the Columbia River is navigable right up to the city of Pasco. and the Pasco and the most of the railroads over there gravitate toward Pasco. So that you are going to have a very happy situation in the future in the distribution of commodities. The rates, of course, by river navi- gation are going to influence the railroad rates. So we are going to have in all probability a very intensive development. This hydroelectric energy should be associated with that development and if associated with that development in the years to come it ought to bear and will in all probability bear one-half the total cost of this enterprise. In other words, I think we ought to carry out in regard to this project here just exactly what has been suggested by Director Davis in the reclamation of the lower Colorado Basin, making the hydroelectric energy bear a part of the burden of the cost of the works. I have another thought in mind, and that is this: That this land to-day is practically worthless. They have tried to farm a considerable portion of it and have failed. There is a large amount of it in sagebrush, it is true. But you can travel for miles over this land and you will see nothing but vacant houses in a very low state of dilapidation. The CHAIRMAN. On that point, is there any Government land within the con- fines of this project? .Mr. BLAINE. About 5.4 per cent of it is Government lands. The CHAIRMAN. For what sum were these private lands sold? Mr. BI.ATNE. Oh, on an average they would not be worth to-day $10 an acre ; probably $5 an acre. A lot of it you can buy, for example, the railroad lands in there, for $1.25 an acre. The CHAIRMAN. Is some of it railroad lands? Mr. BLAINE. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. What proportion? Mr. BLAINE. Five or six per cent. The CHAIRMAN. And 90 per cent privately owned? Mr. BLAINE. Yes, but in very large holdings. It is almost an ideal territory to be developed. There is no reason why all of it should not be thrown within a reclamation district and all the property within the district be made to bear the burden. As these elements all enter into this proposition, I think now is the time to continue these investigations and not waste any time. If we take the waters from the Pend Oreille or divert the water of the Pend Oreille. we must settle then with the neighboring Province of British Columbia. A treaty al- ready exists under which that settlement can be made, but we pay for all dain- 289422 2 16 COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. ages. If we get this project going before there is a development on the drops of the Pend Oreille, within British Columbia, we will have less to pay than though we permit that development to go ahead. So there is one strong reason here why this investigation should be taken up now by the Secretary of the Interior and carried along. The CHAIRMAN. You see no objections to placing the work to be done under this bill exclusively under the Secretary of the Interior, so he can employ reclamation experts, do you? Mr. ELAINE. No; it is absolutely indifferent to me. Of course, there is this feature something was said about a soil expert. I have had this in mind, that any soil expert can but enlarge upon the fertility of this great section, and could present that matter properly before Congress, because few people can appreciate the richness of the soil. It is a volcanic ash of great depth, only re- quiring the sagebrush to be taken off, and the cost of leveling it will be the lowest probably in any part of the United States. Senator WALSH. I did not quite understand your contention about the British Columbia interests. How are they involved? Mr. BLAINK. The Pend Oreille River makes an elbow in British Columbia be- fore it joins the Columbia. ju*t elbows into British Columbia. Senator WALSH. Where does it elbow into British Columbia ? Mr. ELAINE. This map shows you. Senator WALSH. But the Northern Pacific follows Flathead clear down to where it empties into Pend Oreille Lake? Mr. ELAINE. Yes. but the Pend Oreille River starts at the Pend Oreille Lake, goes through British Columbia and flows into the Columbia in our own territory. Senator WALSH. There is another thing: Mr. Elaine, have you contemplated the question of the existence of lands in Montana that might be irrigated by these waters? Mr. ELAINE. Any lands in Montana that probably could be irrigated by the waters of the Flathead Lake and River would have to be pumped, and you might utilize the power to be developed between the two lakes in that way. That would be a part of this investigation, in my judgment. Senator WALSH. But it is not provided for ; that is what I want to call at- tention to. Mr. ELAINE. It is a part, as I understand, of this bill. ' Senator WALSH. No ; this commission is to report on the essential features of the proposed Columbia Rive: 1 Basin irrigation project. Now, without otherwise defining it, that is all. Of course, Congress does not take judicial notice at least of what the Columbia River irrigation project is, but the investigation is to include the following particulars : " Its water supply and the permanency and sufficiency thereof ; the approxi- mate watershed from which said water supply is to be derived and what, if any, natural reservoirs such as lakes, are available for the storing of surplus waters for the said land." That is the first time that " land " occurs in the bill. Senator PQINDEXTEB. We will let you fix that up, Senator. I think you are about as good a phraseologist and literary man as could be found. I think your criticism is valuable. The CHAIRMAN. I did not get that. Senator POINDKXTKK. It states "said lands," and the Secretary suggested that we designate land as" located in these States. I have no objection at all to any more definite designation. Senator JONES. " Said land " only refers to the land within the project. Senator WALSH. It says "available for the soring of surplus waters for the said land." Senator POINDEXTER. It, means the lands of the said project. Senator WALSH. That is a mere matter of verbiage, but the point I want to direct your atten ion to is that the lands are not specifically defined here. This is a matter, of course, of very great consequence to my State. I think I have heretofore expressed some views to you on this subject. It has excited no little apprehension upon the part of owners of land at the head of Flathead Lake, who wrote me in vigorous protest against the project. I have answered them that the fact that lands will be Hooded in order to carry out the project would probably not be regarded as a very valid objection to the prosecir.ion of a great work of development of this character. But, of course, the private COLUMBIA BASIN IRRIGATION. 17 owners of lands would have to be reimbursed for any damage done to their lands or for lands taken. Senator POINDEXTER. That has been estimated in the cost. Senator WALSH. But there is another feature to which I want to invite your attention, and that is that all of these waters that will be impounded in the Flathead Lake come from the State of Montana, and they are to go out of the State of Montana into the State of Washington, and I am inclined to -believe that our people will insist upon adequate provision for the retention of all water in our State necessary to irrigation of lands that can be irrigated from these waters. Senator POINDEXTER. It is all going out now. Senator WALSH. Yes ; it is all going out now. The CHAIRMAN. You want to retain enough water to irrigate the irriglble lands in the State of Montana tributary to the project? Senator WALSH. Exactly. Senator POINDEXTER. That would be one of the water rights to be considered. Senator WALSH. I want the bill framed so that the commission or the Secre- tary will not confine himself to these lands over in the State of Washington, but will make an investigation of all lands capable of irrigation from the project. Senator POINDEXTER. You might say instead of " said lands," the " lands af- fected by the said project." Senator WALSH. Anything of that kind. You understand, I would like to have the investigation go on. I would like to have a report made also as to what other lands are capable of irrigation by these waters, if there are any such lands. The fact about the matter is. as you all know, generally speak- ing, the river flows down through a comparatively narrow 7 canyon all through our State, or at least. I might say. a narrow valley. But there is no incon- siderable area of excellent lands in the neighborhood of Plains and Thompson Fulls, though the total amount may not be great, perhaps not more than 10,000 acres: hut if there be such land and this water is available for the reclama- tion of it some appropriate arrangement must be made to take care of it. Senator POINDEXTER. The situation looks as though there was ample water to take care of any lands that might be available? Senator WALSH. I think so. Senator POINDEXTER. And it looks as though, from the preliminary examina- tion, that the works of this project would at least not make more difficult the irrigation of lands in Montana, but probably would facilitate it. Senator WALSH. I would not imagine that it would seriously affect the situa- tion ; but, then, the investigation ought to be made. Senator POINDEXTER. I think you are jierfectly right about that, and I would be glad to have it provided for. Senator WALSH. _I thought of suggesting to you, Senator Poindexter, that feature, so that it would be within this project as reported upon by this commission, arid then such additional changes might be made as will cover the other point I referred to. The PHATKMAX. Senator Walsh, I think the project should be extended to include all the elements that are involved. That would extend the work con- siderably, both in the time necessary and the ntoney, I would imagine, and re- quire raising this figure. It would require a survey all along the watershed of this r'ver and its tributary streams. It will extend the work unquestionably and involve a larger sum of money and the extension of considerable time. Senator PHTPPS. I would like to ask Mr. Blaine one question in regard to that territory in Panada where this stream comes hack in for a short distance: Do you know what area there might he there that would be subject to irriga- tion from the waters of this stream? Mr. BLAINE. Very little, I understand. Senator PHIPPR. But the amount to be taken o\it of the river is a little less than one-third, in any event. Would you anticipate any contention on the part of the Canadians there that the water could riot be taken out in the I'nited States? Mr. Ui. AI.NK. My point is this. Senator: I believe a thorough investigation l>y a commission is going to develop the fact that all of the waters of the Tend Orellle ought to be diverted at Albany Falls and carried to the Spokane Uiver. to he reserved for power purposes for this 12 0ertains to our whole country, and I want it to he most thoroughly considered. Senator WALSH. What was the arrangement you referred to as existing be- tween this country and Canada? Mr. BLAINE. It is a treaty: we may take the waters out if we pay the damages. Senator WAI.SH. That is the treaty of 1!M)9? Mr. BLAINE. Yes. Senator WALSH. That simply provides for damages that may accrue to owners of lands in Canada consequent upon the construction work. But the more important question is whether the Canadians will not demand, for purposes of irrigation, a portion of the water flowing through the stream. We have exactly the same proposition up in connection with Milk River. Milk Hiver rises in the United States and flows through Canada 150 miles, and then comes back into Montana. We started to appropriate those waters and the Canadians protested, and then we made the treaty of 1909 under wh'.ch we effected a division of these waters. Senator POINDEXTER. This Pend Oreille River only enters Canada for a very few miles before its mouth, and it empties into the Columbia River practically at the boundary line. It goes through a mountainous country, and there are practically no available irrigable lands at that point. Senator WALSH. The claim on the part of Canada would not be serious? Senator POINDEXTER. No. Mr. BLAINE. If we could handle it now, no; but they might start mining. Senator WALSH. A hydroelectrical development would not make any differ- ence? Mr. BLAINE. If we divert the water from the Pend Oreille at Albany Kails to Spokane, this would bring the .water down near the big body of land and where the activity of our State exists. The activity of our State is to the south. But, of course, there will be some mining development northeast of Spokane. So it is an important question that ought to be decided as soon as jMtssible. Senator KENDRICK. Do we divert the water before it goes into Canada? Mr. BLAINE. Oh, yes; if you take it out at Albany Falls. Senator WALSH. Does not this necessitate a treaty with Canada? Mr. BLAINE. It involves an understanding with Canada, but somebody has di- m-ted attention to the fact that there is a law covering the subject matter. Senator SHORTRIDGE. Assuming that the water is diverted at the point you state, to what appreciable degree would it reduce the flow of the river below the point of diversion? Mr. BLAINE. If you divert the waters necessary for the irrigation of the Big Bend of the Columbia, you will divert between 5,000.000 and 0,000.000 acre-feet. But there is an average flow of 19,000,000 acre-feet. That would leave say 13,000,000 or 14.000,000 acre-feet in the river. But my idea is to divert all the water of the r'.ver at the falls and carry it to the Spokane River and bring it closer to the point of power consumption, and hold it in reserve for future use of the people who settle upon this i2.ooo.OOO acres of land and the cities that will undoubtedly grow up there. Senator SHORTKIDGE. Is it not manifest that if you undertake to divert all the water that there would be a very serious protest lodged by Canada? Mr. BLAINE. I think not. Senator SHOUTHIUGE. By property owners or citizens below the point of di- version. Will it not dry up a flowing river? Senator POINUEXTER. I would like to emphasize the point that this is not, necessarily involved in this project. That is Mr. Blaine's personal suggestion, and it has many attractive features, but you can carry out this project entirely without doing that. Senator SHOKTKIIM;K. That is why I asked what proportion of the flowing Avaters of the river are to be diverted in order to carry out this project. Mr. BLAINE. Five million acre-feet. Senator POINDEXTKR. Less than one-third. Mr. F'.I.AINE. Less than one-third. Senator PHII-PS. Can you tell us where the city of Spokane secures its electrical power to-day? COLUMBIA BASIN IRBIGATION. 19 Mr. BLAINE. Along the Spokane River, largely, from the waters of Coeur d'Alene. Senator PHIPPS. So there is no market for hydro-electric power at the present time? Mr. BLAINE. The Spokane Water Power Co. is about to the end of its development, and if they are going to keep up the demands of that section they will have to find another source of supply. Senator PHIPPS. But your principal customers will no doubt be the railroads? Mr. BLAINE. Railroad and mining requirements, and the requirements caused by the future development of this great country. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now go into executive session. (Whereupon, at 4.30 o'clock p. ni., the committee proceeded to executive session, and at the conclusion thereof adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.) A 000 041 985 3