Nos. I. to IV. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. ABSTRACT MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IN THE HQJV. HOUSE OF COMMONS BEFORE A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE CONSIDER THE AFFAIRS / OF TUB EAST INDIA COMPANY/ By the Editor of the East India Delates. LONDON: Printed for BLACK, PARRY, and CO. Leadenhall Street, 1S13. frinted by Cox and Baylis,. Great Quteii $tf0*!> Lmcola's-inn-Fields. ~±s~> ■y ADVERTISEMENT. The Editor, though aware that every Part of the Evi- dence produced be/ore the House of Commons, " on the Af- fairs of the East-India Company" deserves the careful Reflection and patient Study of the Statesman — yet, as that Han. House has expressed an Intention of desisting from the con- sideration of the Eleventh Article of the Propositions submitted to them by Lord Castlereash, until a future Occasion — he has entirely omitted all the Testimony that has been git en on that Point. — In cur tail i?ig the other Paris of the Evidence, it has been his endeavour to simplify the Subject, and, while he was clearing it from the extraneous Matter, to give the Meaning of the several Examinants briefly but faithf idly. The rest of the Evidence will be published in Abstract, and in regular Order, as it can be prccurcd from the Short- Hand Writers. 114C307 No. I ABSTRACT, 8$c. $c. Tuesday, the 30th March, 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. The Counsel (Mr. Adam and Mr. Randle Jackson) appeared. WARREN HASTINGS, Esquire, was examined. [Mr. Adam] — Question. If Europeans were per- mitted to sojourn in India, according to their own pleasure, and without any restraint, have you, from your long experience in that country, the means of stating; to the Committee what the effect of that would be ? — Answer. Most hurtful and rn jst ruinous, both to the Company's interest, to the Government, and to the peace of the country. Nothing could be more opposite than the characters of Europeans (I O EVIDENCE ON THE will confine it to the English) and that of the natives of India, — that part of India which forms our prin- cipal establishment, Bengal. The native Indian is weak in body and timid in spirit ; but there are cases in which a provocation of general grievance would excite a whole people, and even a detached number of them, to all the ferocities of insurrection. The name of an Englishman in India is both his protec- tion and a sanction for offences which he would not dare to commit at home. The idea of participating in the sovereignty, in the lower orders of the peopie, rises to despotism, where the prerogative attached to it can be asserted with impunity. The aggrieved Indian has no chance with such a disparity : he may apply to the nearest provincial court of justice, but there, difficulties, hardly to be apprehended in any- other country, would arrest and impede him : the distance of his residence often from the magistrate requiring more time than he can spare ; the expences and delays of the established courts would be an im- pediment to many an Indian to have recourse to it ; the difficulty of obtaining the attendance of witnesses, would bp yery great and almost insurmountable : these and other causes, would be more likely to prevent his complaining at all ; than so to quicken a sense of injury as to induce him to complain on slight occasions ; besides, the affinity of na- tional appellations, language, manners, dress, and possibility of social intercourse between his oppressor and his judge, would impress him with an awe, which EAST-INDIA GLUESTION. f the other would either not feel, or feel in a very small degree. Such 1 know would be the effect of a single European, not dependent upon the Company's service, residing at a distance from the seat of government, among the natives of India. But if it is proposed to let loose hordes of men of tfiat character, [think the consequence can he no less than ruin to the peace of the country end to the interests of the Company. Q. Do you consider that this unrestrained liberty of Europeans sojourning in India, would lead generally to acts of tyranny and oppression upon the natives, by the Europeans or Englishmen so sojourning in liberty ? — A. I have no doubt but it would ; it cer- tainly would. Q. What do you consider the probable effect of this would be upon the British power in India ; I mean always an unrestrained sojourning of Europeans or Englishmen in India, not in the Company's service? — A. I suppose that the strength of every govern- ment, however constituted, must always depend, in a great degree, upon the affections of the people, and the satisfaction which they feel under the pressure of it. I should think that any great dissatisfaction or disaffection of the people would be a temptation to any of the neighbouring states, if they saw any oppor- tunity, and opportunies often will happen in the best protected countries, to invade it. There is no tracing the disaffections of a people through all the chances of internal and external warfare ; but that it would 8 EVIDENCE ON THE be attended with bad consequences, I believe is a theoretical effect that will apply to all states. Q. Do you conceive it to be possible practically to restrain Europeans sojourning in India according to their own pleasure, to such a residence at the principal settlements or seats of government, as would coun- teract the effects which you apprehend from such sojournment? — A. I think it not practicable; this was not always my opinion. [Mr. Hastings proceeds to give his reasons at great length , why he changed his opinion, and why he now thinks that no restrictions, however well defined and unqualified, could control the had effects of unre- strained sojourning of Englishmen in India, parti- cularly from the difficulties the natives would en- counter in prosecuting British settlers, 8$c. $fc.J Q, Would not the opening of the export and im- port trade, from every port in this country to every port in India, as is now proposed, necessarily lead to such an unrestrained sojournment of Europeans in India, as would become dangerous to the British Government there? — A. Of the effect which an ex- port and import trade from theoutports to India would produce upon the safety of the government of the Company, I cannot speak ; but if Europeans were allowed to go to the country, and to reside where they please, I speak with certainty, that the peace of the country, and the safety of the Company, would be endangered by it. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 9 Q. Frolii your knowledge of the Indian character and habits, are you able to speak to the probability of a demand for European commodities, by the po- pulation of India, for their own use ? — A. The sup- plies of trade are for the wants and luxuries of a people. The poor in India maybe said to have no wants ; their wants are confined to their dwellings, to their food, and to a scanty portion of clothing, all of which they can have from the soil they tread upon, and their apparel almost without any cost. The only opulent of the people are the zemindars, who are almost all, if not all, Hindoos ; all whose habits are similar, and such as require no aid from our trade. Of the Mahometans, few now remain ; and those, from their present impoverished state, certainly would not be able to purchase any of the articles of luxury which our ships could furnish them : I do not believe, therefore, that the demand would be increased by it. Q. At the time you resided in India, had you an opportunity of knowing the mode in which the wealthy part of the native Indians disposed of their superfluous wealth? — A. By such means as are com- mon to all countries ; they would expend it in dissi- pation, in their pleasures and in state, but not, I think, in the luxuries of the table, nor in drunken- ness. Q. Were the natives of India in the habit of spending any part of their superfluous wealth in the purchase of European commodities, or did they B It) EVIDENCE ON THE consider it as part of their luxury, to provide them- selves with such articles as Europe furnishes ? — A. Some, most undoubtedly; laces, broad cloth to a certain amount. European furniture was at one time in some request, but not in very great, at the courts of the native princes ; few of those articles now would meet a sale there. Q, Was this general throughout the country, or was it confined to Indians connected with the princi- pal British settlements? — A. In Calcutta many Eu- ropean articles would meet with a purchase, but little beyond, except what I have mentioned in my answer to the preceding question. Q. According to your observation, is not the cha- racter of the native Indians in its nature stationary and immutable, and not apt to vary from the original habits of the country )—A. It certainly is very stationary : the general conformation of their bodies, on which the physical and moral character of man depends, is not likely to undergo any alteration : in effect, I believe that the Indians now are in their dress, their manners, and in all the habits of life, just what they were at the commencement of the period of their present juge or age, which is perhaps as far as the history of that country extends. Q. Are the native Indians of the higher or lower orders, who have constant intercourse with Europeans, liable, in consequence of that intercourse, to adopt European manners, habits and fashions ? — A. I have seen instances of that in men who, from a servile EAST-INDIA ftUESTION. 11 principle, affected to imitate the European manners and habits; but instances of that kind are very rare. Q. During the period of your residence, was there an exportation of European or English common articles exposed, in the principal settlements, for sale? — A. Certainly ; there always was in all the princi- pal settlements, and is so now. Q. Can you state what degree of vent or sale those articles had among the native population? — A. I can- not ; I should conceive that the European inhabitants would be equal, if not the principal purchasers. [Mr. Hastings, in the most energetic and jeeling language, professed his attachment and gratitude to the East- India Company, hut deprecated the idea of his sentiments being influenced on the present subject, adding~\ Twenty years ago, I strongly urged the necessity of providing against the irruption of British adventu- rers into India, and beyond the bounds of our settle- ments; arguing from it, that they would molest and oppress the people, and plunder the country. (Examined by the Committee.) Q. Upon what grounds do you form your opinion, that the residence of certain persons in India by iicence, would be more dangerous to the interests of the East- India Company in india, than the indiscriminate re- sort of all Europeans to India? — A. If it refers to the licence which is made an exception in the prohibi- tory clause in the Act of Parliament, my objection is a very strong one. Other adventurers would go under B 2 12 EVIDENCE ON THE the jealous eye of Government, and would excite their attention, and Government would certainly use the most efficient means in its power to keep them under control ; but if none were allowed to go into the country with a permission and licence to trade in it, to erect factories and dwelling houses, and to carry on a traffic with the natives, but such persons as went out patronized by the Company, or by the Gover- nors of the Presidency, those are the worst men you could let loose amongst them ; they would go armed with power and an influence which no man would dare to resist ; and those are the men that I should apprehend more danger from, than an indiscriminate rabble let loose upon the country : in opposing the attempts of such men, every man would think that he was acting in opposition to their patron. Q. Would there be, in your opinion, the same clanger now, as twenty years ago, from the admission of Europeans into India, considering the great poli- tical changes which have taken place in that coun- try ? — A. I think there would be as great danger ; from circumstances, I think the danger would be> greater. There were not the same pretensions then raised as have since been ; and any such adventurers now would go out armed with rights, which at that time were not thought of. Q. Do you think there would be any danger to the British interests in India, from the residence of a few additional European merchants and agents at the dif- ferent presidencies, or from their admission occasi- EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 13 onally into the interior of the country, for mercantile purposes, under the present restrictive regulations of the honourable Company ?— A, 1 think there would, I have already said so. Q. What is your opinion of the effect of the union of the sovereignty and commerce of India, in the hands of the Company ; is it beneficial, or otherwise, to the interests of that country ? — A. The sovereignty of the Company is certainly benefi- cial to the country. The union of its commercial with its political interest in it, has never yet produced, to my knowledge or belief, any detriment to the in- habitants ; I do not know how it should. Their in- vestment affords a livelihood to thousands; it animates the industry of the people, and is equally beneficial to both. Q. Are you of opinion, that the commerce of India, as at present regulated, is as advantageous to that country and to Great Britain, as it would be, if free and equal to all the subjects of Great Britain? — A. Certainly, as much, and much more so. Q. Do you recollect having written a review of the state of Bengal, many years ago? — A, I do. Q. Do you recollect having stated, in that review, that although we had been so long in possession of the sovereignty of Bengal, yet we had not been able so far to change our ideas with our situation, as to quit the contracted views of monopolists ; and that thence, in all the correspondents of the Board of Trade were found constant complaints of private mer- 14 EVIDENCE ON THE chants making advances to the Company's weavers and their giving greater prices than had been hitherto given by the Company ; upon which occasion did you express, as your opinion, that it was of less conse- quence that the investment should be procured cheap, than that the commerce of the country should flou- rish ; insisting upon it, as a fixed and incontrovertible principle, that commerce could only flourish when free and equal ? — A, I do not remember those words in the publication of mine alluded to ; I have no doubt they are there, but I do not come here to defend my own inconsistencies. Jf I have expressed my- se'f in the terms which J have listened to, and clearly understand them, I certainly abjure them ; they are not my present sentiments : my senti- ments are, and I cannot say when I changed them from others of a different description, that the commerce of every country, how much soever ex- tended, is beneficial to it, abstractedly considered, without any other circumstances connected with it. With this sentiment I was of opinion, when the rumour first existed, of an intention in the Ame- ricans to send ships to the port of Calcutta, that they should be admitted, and that they should be even encouraged to come. I think such admission, if al- lowed as an indulgence, and not conceded or enacted as a right, would be good policy, not only with the Americans but every other country; but I should think it a very unwise policy to grant it as a right, because, in the first instance, the government would EAST-INDIA &UESTION. 15 hold an effective control over the trade to prevent the abuse of it ; and in the latter they would have the national interest to contend with in every disagree- ment, and involve its own parental state in the contest. Q. In your calculation of the mischiefs that will arise, in consequence of individuals residing in India, who are not servants of the Company, can you make any distinction between Americans and British sub- jects }—A. By individuals, I meant British subject* only. Q. Is there any distinction between Americans and British, or Europeans ? — A. I certainly make a dis- tinction between Americans and British. Q. In what does that distinction consist ? — A* In the right of appeal, which an Englishman could make to the laws ; of his country, or the prejudices of his countrymen. I do not mean that our government should not be amenable to the laws ; but at the dis- tance of India from the parent state, such appeals wantonly made, would prove vexatious to government, and uncontroulable in many instances. The American competitor possesses no such advantages. The Right Honourable Lord TEIGNMOUTH. Mr. R. Jackson.'] Q. Did your Lordship's services under the East-India Company afford an ample oppor- tunity of studying the characters, manners, and ha- frits of the natives ? — A. I certainly endeavoured to 16 EVIDENCE ON THE form an opinion of the character and habits of the natives. Q. Did your Lordship acquaint yourself with their languages? — A. I was acquainted with the common language of India, and the Persian. Q, Looking to such character, manners, and habits, and supposing an influx of Europeans to have access, according to their discretion, to every part within the limits of the charter of the East-India Company, and to sojourn there, according to that discretion and their own opinions, what effect do you suppose that such sojournment might have upon the general in- terests of the East-India Company, or of the British empire in India ? — A* 1 should think that an unre- strained influx of Europeans into India would be prejudicial to the interests of this country, as con- nected with India. People unacquainted with the habits and characters of the natives, are not disposed to give that weight to their prejudices, which people brought up in the country are disposed to give. Q. Supposing that influx to consist of seamen and traders, would those evils to which you refer be likely to occur : — A. Not in the same degree, in my opinion, as from an unrestrained admission of Europeans into the interior of the country. Q. Are there not many sea-ports on either side of the peninsula, at a considerable distance from either of the principal seats of government ? — A- I believe go ; but do not recollect any sea-ports where there EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 17 is not some established authority on the part of the Company. Q, Supposing such an influx to have access to such ports, might it not be difficult to restrain them from making their way into the country ? — A. Under the present system^ of regulations established in Bengal, I should think that they might be, in a great mea- sure, restrained from penetrating into the country ; or that they might be stopped, and would be sent back. Q. Supposing a free trade to take place from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's charter, at the discretion of the adventurers, is it not likely that the numbers would increase in a very considerable degree? — A. At first, the numbers, I think, would be great ; but the disappointment which I should conceive would arise in the commercial speculations, supposing them to be carried on to the extent specified in the question, would prevent so great an influx of Europeans. Q. While those numbers should continue great, would not the difficulty be considerable of restraining them, either as to conduct or place of abode? — A. It would be difficult in proportion to the numbers, but not altogether impracticable. Q. Supposing such adventurers to meet with the disappointment alluded to, would not they be driven to seek other means of maintenance in India?—- A. They probably would attempt it, and some might contrive to obtain a residence in India. c 18 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. If such free trade be allowed, not only directly to the ports within the limits of the Company's charter, but coastwise from port to port, would not that difficulty be increased, or rather would not such restraint become wholly impracticable ? — A. I do not think the restraint would be impracticable, where the Company's authority extends. Q. Supposing, under the circumstances stated, of coasting from port to port, and the unlimited commu- nication which has been described, the restraint should not be found sufficient, what do you then apprehend from the unrestrained intercourse which would take place between such persons and the natives ? — A. If there were an unrestrained intercourse between such persons and the natives, that is, an intercourse that could not be restrained, it would imply a defect in the exercise of the superintending powers of the go- vernment that would in fact amount to a suspension of its functions ; and, in that case, an unrestrained multitude would certainly be dangerous, in many points of view. Q. Supposing such defect to exist, will your Lord- ship state the evils you apprehend would arise from such intercourse with the natives ? — A. There is one general consequence which I should think likely to result from a general influx of Europeans into the interior of the country and their intercourse with the natives, that, without elevating the character of the natives, would have a tendency to depreciate their estimation of the general European character. Such an EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 19 effect I should think highly dangerous in a country, where the estimate of the power of the government depends greatly upon opinion ; in a country where the proportion of the natives to the number of Europeans is probably not less than two thousand to one ; other inconveniences would arise in this way, from a dis- regard to the peculiar prejudices of the natives, and by a conduct calculated to irritate them. Q. Does your Lordship think that such intercourse would tend to shake that opinion, upon which your Lordship has stated the power of the government to depend? — A. It certainly would have a tendency to it, which tendency would be very much increased by the number of Europeans. Q. Would not also much depend upon the station in society that such persons filled ? — A. I think it might ; but probably the evil would be less likely to arise from people in a higher station of society, than from those in the lower ranks. > Q. If they were composed of seamen and traders p — A. The danger would be proportionably great, I conceive. [Here Lord Teignmouth slated tfie difficulties which the natives would lie under, in prosecuting European settlers, as had been before described by Mr % Hastings.] Q. Does your Lordship apprehend any evil conse- quences to arise from persons being allowed, for the purposes of trade, or the professed purposes of trade, c 2 20 EVIDENCE ON THE to pervade any material part of the interior of the peninsula ? — A. I should suppose that no persons would be allowed to go into the interior, but by the know- ledge and consent of the governing power ; exclusive of those inconveniences * which I have already stated as possible to result from a general intercourse of Europeans with the natives of India, no others occur to me at present. Q. Considering the habits, the manners, and gene- ral character of the natives, does your Lordship suppose that opening the trade to India would lead to a much greater degree of consumption of Euro- pean articles by the natives of India, than takes place at present ? — A. I certainly do not. Q. Will your Lordship have the goodness to state your reasons for that opinion t — A. Those reasons are founded upon the particular habits and customs of the natives. 1 know very few articles of European manufacture that are used by the natives in general, or that are likely to be used by them in any consider- able degree. Q. Does your Lordship know of any wants of that description, that have not been most amply supplied by the existing system of commerce to India, with regard to European articles for the consumption of the natives, as far as that consumption may go? — * Meaning the difficulties of the natives in prosecuting British sttuers. Kr,i EAST-INDIA aUESTION. 2 1 A. I am not aware of any wants that have not been sufficiently supplied by the trade as now carried on. Q. Does your Lordship conclude, from your know- ledge of the manners and customs of the natives, and from your long experience, that any material increased consumption of European articles, upon the part of the natives, is wholly unlikely ? — A. I think it very im- probable. Q. Has the intercourse between the natives and the Europeans, at the principal seats of government, ap- parently induced any taste or desire towards the greater use of European articles ? — A. There may have been some few instances in which the natives, out of com- pliment to the Europeans (those natives in particular who are in the habit of giving entertainments to them) may have introduced some European articles of furni- ture ; but from my own experience, I should not suppose the desire or taste mentioned in the question, to exist in any but a very limited degree. Q. With regard to the great bulk or mass of the population, have they it in their power so to indulge, were it their desire ? — A. I should think not. Q. Looking to general experience, have those who have had the means of accumulating some property, directed their expenditure towards European articles } — A. Not according to my experience. Q. Supposing the natives to have a wish for the purchase of European articles, do they not at present enjoy ample and sufficient opportunity for such pur- 22 EVIDENCE ON THE pose ? — A. I believe the opportunity is fully equal to the extent of their wishes. Q. Does your Lordship know of any material want of European articles, that, generally speaking, is not in the course of being supplied by the existing system ? — A. I do not recollect any. Q. Would there not be, in your Lordship's opinion, a greater consumption in India, of our manufactures, if they could be supplied cheaper ? — A. I hardly know what articles of our manufactures are consumable by the natives, excepting perhaps some woollen cloths. Certainly some people, if they were much cheaper, might be induced to purchase them, who do not now : but as to manufactures in general, I really do not know what manufactures of (his country are used by the natives in India. Q. Would not our woollens, in particular, be accept- able Co all classes of natives, and of all religions, in the cold and rainy seasons, if they could afford to purchase them : — A. I know of no objection, on ttte score of religion, to the use of woollens in that country; but if the natives had preferred them to their own manu- factures, I should think they would have used them in a much greater degree than they have hitherto done: if they were much cheaper, than they have been hi- therto sold, the sale of them might probably, in some degree, be extended. Q. Does not your Lordship think the natives would prefer our woollen manufactures to their own cotton EAST-INDIA QUESTION. J3 manufactures, in cold weather? — A, I think some of the natives, who could afford it, would prefer the woollens to the cotton ; but the poorer people cannot afford to purchase them, and the higher class prefer their own shawls. [Here his Lordship stated, that the influx of Eu- ropean settlers might be prevented, if the commander of a ship were compelled to give an account of all his passengers, and the police be directed to stop any Eu- ropean from penetrating into the country without a pass or authority for that purpose ; and his Lordship supposed, that some such permission would be required, tinder any opening of the trade whatever, and that danger was to be apprehended from an admission of Europeans into the interior without such passports from the government, and that, even then, no prac- tical regulations could be devised to prevent the evil in every instance.^ Q. From your Lordship's knowledge of the nature of the government in India, do you conceive that if, by an act of the legislature, the right of every person in the British empire to goto India were recognized, it would not materially weaken the power of the go- vernment, to enforce the regulations of which your Lordship has spoken ? — A. I think it would. Q. Does not your Lordship know of any ports on the peninsula of India, belonging to native powers on the coast of Malabar? — A. I believe there may be, but I really do not recollect. 24 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. Docs your Lordship know of any regulation of the Company, that could prevent Europeans landing at those ports? — A. None; unless there should be some specific treaty between the Company and the native powers, in whose possession those ports are. Q. Referring to the low rate of wages of labour in India, is it your Lordship's opinion, that the purchase of our woollens is within the reach of the means of the great mass of the population of that country ? — A. I should think certainly not. Q. Does your Lordship believe that there are any other articles, of European manufacture, which are within their reach, so as to give a prospect of extend- ing considerably, in the case of a free and open trade, the export of those articles to India ? — A. I do not recollect any. Q. Does your Lordship happen to know what the rate of wages is in India ? — A. I certainly once knew, but have forgotten. I know that subsistence in India may be procured easier than in any other part of the world, and that a native of that country, for 3s. a month, may live luxuriously ; that may be some rule for estimating the rate of labour. Q. Your Lordship having stated 3s. a month to be sufficient for the subsistence of a labourer in India, does your Lordship happen to know what further sum may be necessary for his cloathing and his other neces- sary expenses ? — A. I have not a sufficient recollection to say what further might be necessary for supplying EAST-INDIA GlUESTION. 25 him with cloathing. It could not be much, because cloth is very cheap in that country, and the quantity which a labourer wears is very little. Q. Does your Lordship suppose that it would re- quire more or less than 3s. a month to cloath him ?— - A. I really cannot answer that question with any sa- tisfaction to myself, or I should be happy to do it* 2-<5 EVIDENCE ON THE No. II. ABSTRACT, Wednesday, 3 1 st March 1813. WILLIAM COWPER, Esquire, was examined. \_Mr. Adam.~\ Q. From your knowledge and expe- rience of those provinces and settlements of the East- India Company, in which you resided, can you speak to the probable effect of an unrestrained intercourse of Europeans in those settlements I — A. I should appre- hend that such an unrestrained intercourse would en- danger the peace of the country. It certainly would create the greatest embarrassments to the local govern- ments, and to the authorities under them. Q. Do you conceive that such an unrestrained in- tercourse would affect the happiness of the native Indians ; and, if so, in what manner do you think it would affect them ? — A, Undoubtedly it would sub- ject thern to every kind of persecution on the part of the new adventurers. Q. Do you mean, that oppression to the natives by the new adventurers, would be the likely effect of the unrestrained intercourse of Europeans? — A. It certainly would. EAST-INDIA UUESTION. 27 Q. Are offences by Europeans against the native Indians, triable any where but at the supreme court in Calcutta ? — A. It was with reference to my under- standing that they are not triable except at Calcutta, that my answer to the last question was formed. Q. Have you had any opportunity of judging, from the situations you held in India, of the probable con- sumption of European commodities there by the natives, in case of a free trade ? — A. I should ima- gine that the consumption of European commodities by the natives would always be very trifling. The poverty of the infinitely greater part of the popula- tion, renders it impossible that they should indulge themselves by the purchase of such commodities; and, even if they had the means, it is my opinion that their habits, their prejudices, and their customs, would all operate to prevent their consuming any quantity of such commodities. Q. Had you an opportunity, during your residence in India, of knowing the general price of labour in the provinces in which you resided? — ^.Generally speaking, it was extremely low in all ; but it varied of course, depending on local circumstances: for in- stance, in the province of Chittagong, which is the eastern dependence of the Bengal empire, a labourer certainly, twenty-five years ago, thought himself extremely well paid, if his labour procured him to the amount of three shillings a month : at Calcutta, the same description of person would have earned five or six shillings, perhaps ; of course the wages of d a 25 EVIDENCE ON THE labour must depend a good deal upon the nature of the profession exercised. If the question means to advert to the husbandmen in the provinces in Bengal, the gums mentioned I should imagine pretty correct. g. Do their habits of living, provided their manr ners and customs would permit, admit of any saving, sufficient to enable them to become purchasers of European commodities: — A, I should think, certainr ly not. Q. Is the Committee to understand from you, that the great bulk of Indian population never can become purchasers of European commodities?—^. I think 50. Q. Are you enabled to state, from the knowledge you had of India, whether the natives, residing in towns where there were European settlements, assi- milated themselves at all to the manners of the Europeans ? — A. With the exception of Calcutta, perhaps, and one or two other of the larger cities, certainly not; and eyen in those, more, I should ap- prehend, from a desire to please the European gentle- men, than from any real predilection for their man- ners. Q. Can you state whether in Calcutta, anp! in those places to which you refer, such an assimilation has been general, pr confined to a few persons ? — A. Confined to a very small proportion of the inhabi r tants. Q. Have those Indians been persons of rank and wealth ? — A. They have been. EAST-INDIA dUESTION. 29 Q. Can you state in what particulars those Indians have conformed to the manners or fashions of Euro- peans ? — A. Principally, I believe, in the furniture of their houses. Q. Have they conformed to European manners, in their dress, their table, or any other article of their living, besides the furniture of their houses ? — A. Not to my knowledge ; except in a very few instances, where the superior class may occasionally have made a practice of receiving and entertaining the gentlemen of the settlement. Q. Have those persons been Hindoos or Maho- metans ? — A. Both the one and the other ; but in Calcutta I mean to speak principally of the Hindoos. Q. The instances of furniture being very few, and those of conformity to European manners very rare, is it likely that, if there was a general open trade to that part of the world, there would be, from those causes, any considerable demand for European ma- nufactures ? — A. I should think not. Q. Had you any opportunity of observing in what manner the wealthy natives, Indians, applied their superfluous wealth ? — A. Certainly not in the purchase of European articles. Q. Have you, from your knowledge of India at the time you resided there, the means of being able to state, what the probable political effects of an open trade and free intercourse, in point of commerce, be- tween Great Britain and India> would be? — A. The 30 EVIDENCE ON THE political effects would ultimately, I conceive, be dangerous to our dominion there. Q. In what manner would it endanger our do- minion there ? — A. I apprehend that the introduction of such multitudes of Europeans into the interior, would be productive of everlasting quarrels and dis- sensions between the new adventurers and the natives, which in the end might goad and exasperate the latter jnto resistance against their oppressors. Q. Would that intercourse of Europeans to the ports to which the trade would be carried, without their penetrating to the interior of the country, be attended with proportionable evil ? — A. I should think very great embarrassments might arise to the local governments in India from such an intercourse with such ports, as it would tend to involve those local governments in diputes with the native powers. Nothing can be more jealous than those powers are in their intercourse with us. Q. Is the conduct of Europeans, without any in- tention of offence towards the natives, likely, from the great difference of their manners and habits, to be offensive to the native Indians? — A. Certainly they might become offensive, from the ignorance of the European ; in his intercourse with the natives, he might give offence ignorantly in a thousand ways. Q. Have you had any occasion to consider how far it would be possible, by regulations, to prevent the evil consequences which would be the result of that influx of Europeans that is apprehended?*-^. I EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 31 think it would be extremely difficult to form any regulations that would he efficient to this purpose ; I do not mean to say that it is absolutely impossible. Q. Do any regulations occur to you, that could tend towards producing this end ? — A. Certainly not. Q Were the police establishments in general cal- culated, in poiot of strength and force, to keep in order such a state of population as might arise from the apprehended influx of Europeans ? — A. I should think not. $2 EVIDENCE ON THE No, III. ABSTRACT, Thursdmj, 1 st April 1813. WILLIAM COWPER, Esquire, was again called in. Q. You have been asked, whether you thought there would be a considerable consumption of British manufactures by the population of India, to which you answered, you thought very small ; can you form an opinion, what proportion of the fifty millions of native subjects would have the means of purchas- ing articles of British produce and manufacture, sup- posing the prices of the same reduced to the lowest possible rate ? — A. I have no idea of any consump- tion of such articles, beyond what is already im- ported into India by the Company's ships. A few mirrors and lustres, a few covered carriages, are taken off by the natives ; and those, as I have already stated, chiefly for the purpose of being enabled to entertain the British inhabitants and their friends, at particular times of the year during their festivals, in a way that they imagine we are used to, and EAST-INDIA QUESTION* 33 thinking, perhaps, that unless so accommodated we should not be well pleased. Q You will not take upon you to give any opinion as to what proportion of that population, whether one in a hundred or a thousand, or two thousand, would have the means of purchasing those articles ? — A. I think it is beyond all calculation the smallest of the comparative numbers on the aggregate of fifty millions, I should imagine not one in two thou- sand, [Mr Cowper stated here, in similar substance, though in different terms with those of Mr. Hastings and Lord Teignmoutk, the danger of an open and un- restricted communication with the natives, on account of the difficult y to obtain legal redress against Eu- ropeans, from the expence, trouble, distance, and other various circumstances, &c &c] Q. During your residence in Calcutta, has it not come to your knowledge, that whole investments of masters and officers of Indiamen have been sold considerably under prime cost ? — A, I cannot answer that question on my own knowledge, though most undoubtedly I have heard that a great proportion of that description of persons have, during my resi- dence in India, been absolutely ruined, from the impossibility of disposing of their cargoes at all in Calcutta, and have been obliged to send them to auction, and of course to sell them very much under the prime cost ; but 1 cannot specify any particular instance, at this distance of time. 34 JSVIPENCE ON THE Q. If there had been any possibility of finding a sale in any part of India for those commodities, are ti ere not merchants, both European and natives, who would have been ready to have purchased those goods, and to transport them to other places ? — * A. Most undoubtedly. THOMAS GRAHAM, Esquire. [Mr. Jackson].-— Q. Have you had ample opportu- nities, while you was in Iudia, of studying the charac- ter of the native Indians r -A. No doubt. Q. Are their habits and prejudices, generally speaks ing, of a fixed and unchangeable nature ?— r A. Cer- tainly they are. Q. Will you give some general description of the character of the natives ; are they persons of quick sensibility, with respect to those habits and prejudices r — A. They are, no doubt, of very quick sensibility. Q. Are they peculiarly susceptible of affront with respect to their religious prejudices ? — A. Unques- tionably. Q. Are tbey persons who are impatient of opposi- tion with regard to their religious superstitions \—?-A. undoubtedly. Q. Are they quick and jealous of affront with re* spect to their women ? — They are so. Q. Is the Company's authority, at present, of.ihai strict nature, that, generally speaking, it preserve* them from such affront with regard to the conduct of their servants ? — A. It certainly is. EAST-INDIA GLUEStlON. 35 Q. Supposing a considerable influx of Europeans, in consequence of an open trade from every port in this kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's charter, would you apprehend any conse- quence to happen from such influx towards the na- tives ? — A. I think a* promiscuous intercourse of Eu- ropeans with the natives of India might lead to the most mischievous consequences. (i Describe the sort of consequence you appre- hend.—.^. I apprehend that they would, in their common pursuits, interfere with their religious pre- judices in a manner that would cause commotion. Q. Supposing the trade to India to be opened in the manner described, would rt not be necessary fof the new adventurers to have houses and warehouses, and other means of settlement ? — A. 1 apprehend it would be absolutely necessary, unless they were to" employ those agents, although established at the Company's settlements. Q. If unlimited intercourse was allowed with every port in India, would they be inclined to transact their' own concerns ? — A. They might endeavour to transact their own concerns ; but I do not think that they would be successful, inasmuch as, having no agents, nor* finding any agents at those places previously estab- lished, they would not be able to purchase any arti- cles of commerce. Q. Are there not many of the ports, on either coast of the peninsula, at" a great distanced from the principal seats of government ? — A. A great many. E 2 36 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. Do you apprehend that any material Influx of new settlers could be kept (either with egurd to their conduct, or emigration into the interior, or intrigue with persons living in the interior in sufficiently strict controul and coercion to prevent such conse- quences ? — A. I conceive it would be exceedingly dif- ficult to prevent them from improper interference in the affairs of the country. Q. Supposing them to have this licence of going to every port in India according to their discretion, do you think they could be kept from getting into the interior of the country, if such were their object ? — A* Unless restrictions were to be imposed upon them previously to their going to India, I do not think that they could. Q. To what kind of restrictions do you allude ? — A. Without the permission of the existing govern- ment in India. Q. Do you think, with this general license of vi- siting every port, that it would not be in their power to elude such authority, if they were so disposed ? — A. I have no doubt they might. Q. Supposing them to succeed in thus eluding the authority of government, and getting into the interior, what are the consequences which you would appre- hend to result therefrom? — A, That they would get into personal quarrels with the natives, which might be productive of general insurrection. \_Mr. (,raharipoJ esses to have the same apprehen- sions with the tvi htsses bejore examined, as to tlue RAW-INDIA QUESTION. 3J difficulties the natives would nmtergo to obtain re- dress from Europeans in case of' dispute.] Q. Supposing them, from the want of capacity oc other cause, to be thus disappointed of obtaining legal redrew, what do \ou apprehend might be the conse- quence ? — A. That they would revenge themselves ■upon the individual who haA. The proportion, 1 suppose, of 99 in loo. Q Jn cases where the natives have acquired pro- perty, do they direct its expenditure to the purchase of European articles r — A. Some tew, resident m the 40 EVIDENCE ON THE principal towns, do purchase some few articles, such as looking-glasses and glass ware. Q. Do you confine this remark to the principal towns r — A. I confine it to the principal towns, be- cause I have not observed it at all common in the interior of the country, even with the natives possess- sing wealths Q. Do you mean such towns as are more or less the seat of European government ? — A I do. Q. Do vou apply this remark to any considerable number, of persons, reside where they may ? — A* I apply it to a very great portion of the inhabitants of the interior of the country, a very large portion. Q. 1 mean the remark, as to the more wealthy purchasing European articles ; is the number ©f such considerable ? — A. Very few. Q Can you state whether such natives as have a desire for the purchase of European articles, have a full and perfect opportunity of making such pur- chase t — A. Certainly they have ; at the principal settlements of the Company they are to be found. Q. Have you had an opportunity of seeing with what degree of success captains and officers have car- ried out adventures of European artielcs ? — A. Of later years, I imagine, almost all of them must have been losers by their speculations in European com- modities from this countrv. Q. Are such persons, meaning captains and offi- cers, subject to the charge of freight ? — A. I under* stand not, that it forms part of their emolument!. PAST- INDIA QUESTION. 41 s. Q. Are they not their own supercargoes r — A. I understand they are. Q. Does the saving of freight, and such charge of commission, amount to a considerable proportion upon the value of the adventure ? — A. I apprehend it does. Q. Do you mean to state, that notwithstanding such advantages for a considerable time past, the adven- turers in question have been rather losers than gainers by their speculation ? — A. Most certainly, upon the whole, they have been losers. Q. Have you any doubt, then, that European articles are now, and have been for a considerable time past, rather a glut than otherwise in India ? — A. Certainly they have been, and in many instances have sold con- siderably under prime cost. Q. Have they sometimes, in order to force a sale at any rate, been obliged to resort to sales by auction, or a raffle, or other such expedients ? — A. The selling by auction at Calcutta now is almost the universal resort ; at least at the period of time when I left it. Q. Within your observation, have European arti- ficers and handicraftsmen began some of their respec- tive manufactures in India? — A. They certainly have. Q. Do you think that an unlimited and unrestrain- ed access to India might not very materially increase this disposition to manufacture in India such commo- dities as may be required ? — A. As the commodities manufactured by European artists in India are ge- p 42 EVIDENCE ON THE nerally for the consumption of either the army or the civil service, it is not likely that it would increase beyond the demand. Q. In proportion to whatever European demand there might be, do you apprehend such unlimited ac- cess to India might increase general manufacture, ac- cording to that proportion ? — A. I apprehend that the pursuit would be entirely regulated by the demand ; in as far as I could observe at the time of my leaving India, such persons as did so employ themselves were able to meet all the demands, (Examined by the Committee.) Q. You stated the inconvenience that might arise from persons getting into the interior without permis- sion, and the danger that might arise therefrom ; do you conceive any individual, going into the interior among the natives, would be likely to commit any such outrage as would bring upon him what you state would probably be the case, the being murdered or torn to pieces by the natives ? — A. It is probable that, from ignorance, he would trespass upon some of tbeir religious prejudices ; and the consequences, in all probability, would be the forfeiture of his own life. Q. Do you conceive that there would be any serious danger to the British interests in India, from the admission of a few additional merchants and agents at the different presidencies and stations on the sea coast in India ? — A, I do not, provided they were un- der similar restrictions as those who now are there. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 43 Q. Do you think that any danger would arise from the admission of those Europeans occasionally into the interior, for mercantile purposes, under the pre- sent restrictions and regulations of the honourable Company r — A. Under the limited sense of the ques- tion, I do not conceive that any danger could ensue. Q. Do you conceive that such interference would be likely to create a competition in the market, which might ratee the prices beyond those usually given by the Company ? — I do not think it would. Q. Do not you conceive that such interference would be likely to create a rise in the price of the articles, the manufactures for instance, so as to increase the demand of the weavers ? — A. I do not think they would ; for the prices given by the Compa- ny, for the articles provided on their account, are very liberal, and the manufacturers themselves are perfectly satisfied with those prices. Q. Are the prices given by the Company equal to those given by the private merchant ? — A, As far as I ever understood it, they areas high. Q. How comes it, then, that itwas understood the natives prefer dealing with private merchants, to the Company ? — A. My bebef is perfectly the reverse ; the manufacturers prefer the Company's employment, because they are sure of its permanency, and they look upon all other purchasers as precarious. Q. How comes it then to be necessary to station peons, or native officers, at the houses of the weavers, to prevent the interference of private merchants, till » 2 44 EVIDENCE ON THE the Company's investments are provided ? — A. Be- cause of the manufacturers not being always so honest as to reserve the goods manufactured with the Com- pany's money for the use of the Company, but dis- pose of them very often to private merchants. Q. Then the Company pay for their goods before they receive them ? — A. They make advances in mo- i ey for the manufacture of them, previous to their being manufactured. Q. For what purpose are those advances made?-— A. For the purpose of enabling them to buy the ma- terial with which they manufacture the goods, for they have no stores. Q. Are the weavers not kept constantly in arrears to the honourable Company r — A. I apprehend only in arrears from their own deficiencies of deliveries. Q. Are not the native weavers subject to corporal punishment if they do not fulfil their engagements with the Company? — A. During the whole of my residence in India, for a period of nine and thirty years, 1 never heard of it* ■ . ■ EAST-INDIA aUEST10N. 45 No. IV. ABSTRACT, Friday, Zd of April 1813. THOMAS GRAHAM, Esquire, continued. [Mr. Graham informed the House, that the Com- pany made advances to the native iveavers, for the purpose of enabling them to proceed with their manu- facture, 8$c. as he believed, without requiring interest for such advance ; and that the commodity was not likely to be produced without such advance.^ Q. Do not you know that the intercourse of Euro- peans with the Malays has been productive of mas- sacres of the Europeans ? — A: I have often heard of accidents of that kind happening, and have always been informed that the Malays are of a very vindictive and violent temper. Q. Have not whole crews of ships of small burthen been cut oft* by the Malays ? — A. I have no doubt there have been such things, Q. What, in your opinion, would be the effect of an indiscriminate intercourse of Europeans with the Malays ? — A. I think they would all be in great danger of losing their lives. 46 EVIDENCE. ON THE .. Q. You said that you thought considerable danger tvould arise from the promiscuous intercourse between the Europeans that would flock to India, in case of the opening of the trade, and the Hindoos, without certain regulations; do you think the present regulations adopted by the East India Company, in respect of Europeans not servants of the Company, would be sufficient, or that it would be necessary to adopt any further regulatious r — A. I think it would be very difficult, if not almost impracticable, to frame regula- tions which would obviate all the bad consequences which might arise from such promiscuous intercourse. Q, Do you think that, if it w r as necessary to adopt any stricter regulations, with respect to the intercourse between the Europeans, not servants of the Company, and the Hindoos, those regulations would diminish the advantages which would otherwise accrue to the merchants that might engage in the open trade ? — A. Inasmuch as it might subject them to additional ex- pcnse, by being restrained from pervading all parts of the country, I think it would have that effect. Q. You stated, that you apprehend danger from a promiscuous and unrestrained intercourse of Euro- peans with the natives, because the Europeans might interfere with the religious prejudices and habits of the natives; did that answer relate to persons going to propagate Christianity only, or to mercantile ad- venturers also ? — A. I think it would apply still more Jbrcibly to persons endeavouring to promote Christi- anity. EAST-INDIA ftUESTION. 4f Q. You suppose that the objection applies, in soma degree, also to mercantile adventurers ? — A. In as far as they, from ignorance of their prejudices, might tres- pass upon them. Q. Would that danger be more from mercantile adventurers, not in connection with the government, than from mercantile adventurers in connection with government ? — A. I conceive it would be more, for one reason, that the servants of the Company are completely in the power of the government, and are well acquainted with all the regulations ; and it is an understood injunction to all of them, to avoid any thing which shall in any shape trespass upon the pre- judices of the natives. Printed by Ox and Baylis, No. 75, Great Queen Str«t, Lincolu'i-Inn-rieWs. Nos. V. and VI. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. ABSTRACT MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN IN THB HOJf. MOUSE OF COMMONS BEFORE A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE TO COVSIDER THE AFFAIRS EAST INDIA COMPANY. By the Ea* or f t he East India Debates. LONl>^ T . Primed for BLACK, PARRY, and ^ Leadenhall Strect# 1813. PERSON EXAMINED. Psge Lieutenant Colonel Sir John Malcolm 4 9 Printed by Cox and 3 _ Ini>Fid(i8 ^71i», Qrcat Queen Streer, No. V, ABSTRACT, 8$C. 8$C. Monday, 5 th April 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lfshington, Esq. in the Chair. Lieut. Col. Sir JOHN MALCOLM was examined. \_Mr Adam'] — Q. How long is it since you re* turned from India ? — A. About eight months. Q. Have your services in India been such as to afford you the means of general information with regard to the state of all the settlements under the government of the Company? — A. They have been. Q. During the period of your having the appoint- ment of resident at Mysore, you were sent upon several different political missions? — A. I was. Q. State to what parts of India ? — A, Almost over every part of India, both Bengal and Madras ; and G 2 50 EVIDENCE ON THE likewise to Persia ; have conducted negociations with almost all the principal courts in India ; resided at the principal settlements!, towns and military can- tonments. Q. Have those various services enabled you to become acquainted with the characters and manners of India, in the different ranks of society in that country ? — A. From understanding several of their languages, and having had a great deal of intercourse, I had opportunities to become so acquainted. Q. From that knowledge, can you state how far an unlimited and unrestrained resort of British sub- jects, or Europeans, to India, would affect the Indian government? By unlimited and unrestrained, is meant, that the state of India with regard to government and the restrictions and regulations are to remain as they are, but that the trade is to permit an intercourse of Europeans, and British subjects particularly, with India without limitation, and without the power of restraining them from going there, or preventing them from trading, when they are there, in the inte- rior or elsewhere, any where in India within the Company's limits? — A. I think of all the powers which are vested in the local government, there is none more essential to its existence in full vigour and force, than that which enables them to restrain the local residence of every individual European to parti- cular parts of the Empire. If British subjects were allowed to go to the presidencies where British courts of law are established, there would be no other EASTVINDU ftUESTIOX. 51 danger, but what might arise from their great num- bers, the changes in the condition of the society, and eventually and gradually of the government, from that circumstance. If they went to any ports where there was no established authority, and proceeded into the interior of the country, there would no doubt be much mischief arising from those quarrels which must inevitably ensue with the natives, which mis- chief would vary from a hundred local causes con- nected with the character of the natives of the places to which they resorted. Q. Do you consider, from the observations that you have made on all the variety of character in the Hindoos, that the influx of Europeans would be attended with the evils you apprehend? — A. I cer- tainly do ; the servile and Submissive character of certain classes of the Hindoos would invite an op- pression that would be attended with bad effects to the general character of our nation ; and the high feelings of the other class would be certain to produce broils and quarrels with persons ignorant of their language and habits. Q. Do you conceive that those evils would be likely to be aggravated, in any respect, by the manner in which the natives of India consider their women, and persons of the female sex, under their protection, as objects of affection and regard? — A. Most un- doubtedly ; and it is above all others one of the esta- blished principles of government, to enforce respect to the usages and religious prejudices of the natives. b'2 EVIDENCE ON THE - Q. In the case of person?, not the covenanted servants of the Company, are they at liberty to go to any distance from the presidency without a regular permission? — A. Ten miles. Q. Beyond that limit, do they apply for a passport ? — - A. Certainly. Q. Are such persons under the necessity of showing it as a means of their protection ? — A. They are. Q. Is this limitation through the interior of the, country constant, and requisite ? — A. It has been constant, and appears to me most requisite. Q. Have you considered how an influx of Euro- peans might affect that particular part of the country where you were appointed political resident? — A. In Mysore, all such disputes and quarrels gave rise to political discussion, as that country is under the dominions of a prince virtually dependent perhaps upon our government, but certainly not directly sub- ject to its authority. Q. Have you known any disputes between natives and young European officers ? — A. Such were very frequent. In most cases they proceeded from the violence of the European officer, or his ignorance of the manners and language of the inhabitants. Q. Do you think that Europeans, out of the service of the Company, ignorant of the language of the natives, and going into the Mysore or any other part of India, are likely to get into disputes with the natives; and why? — A. If it frequently occurs that officers, who are under all the restraint of severe mili- EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 55 tary discipline, are embroiled in such disputes, I conceive persons, not in the service, and equally igno- rant of their manners and customs, would be still more liable to be so. One prominent cause of such persons being involved in disputes, will be the native interpreters, whom they employ as the medium of their communications ; such persons, who generally speak broken English, are of the lowest and most fraudulent classes of the community ; their object is to derive a livelihood by cheating both the European, by whom they are employed, and the native with whom he has any concern ; and they have always art enough to direct the rage, in which the European is at being defrauded, against the person with whom, from ignorance of their language, he cannot directly com- municate. Q. Is the intervention of such interpreters as you have described, between the native Indian and the European trader, likely to aggravate the evils which you have stated ? — A. I have stated it as one of the principal causes of those evils. Q. Are you of opinion that that cause would operate with greater effect and force, were the intercourse be- tween traders and natives, than between travellers and natives? — A, Most certainly; the concerns of the merchant may present a very strong incitement to roguery. Q. Can you form a judgment of how far the great acquisition of territory lately made by the Company, is calculated to increase or to diminish the evils of unli- 54 EVIDENCE ON THE mited and unrestrained European resort ? — A. The danger from our extended possessions must necessarily have increased in a ratio with the magnitude of those dominions, and, with them, our danger from insur- rection or revolt. That our territories in India con- tain a great number of seditious and discontented men, there can be no doubt \ and, as those men, in any object they may have of subverting our empire, have lost all hope of doing that through the means of foreign enemies, we must expect that their exertions will be doubly active in trying to foment internal in- surrection and revolt. Q. You are understood to have said, that the au- thority of the government of the Company in India might be injured by an influx of Europeans ; do you conceive that the punishment of Europeans for crimes committed against the natives, or for offences that affect the natives or the punishment of Europeans in general for any offences, is likely to affect the authority of go- vernment and the European influence in India ? — A, It affects the general character and respectability of the country to which he belongs, and which character it is most essential, in a government so constituted as that of British India, should be preserved in the high- est scale. Q. State whether, from your knowledge of the In- dian character, and of their wants, the general popu- lation of India arc likely to become customers for Eu- ropean commodities ? — A, If by the general population of India is meant the great mass, there is no doubt EAST-INDIA GLUESTIOV. .55 they are not likely to become customers for European articles, because they do not possess the means to pur- chase them, even if, from their present simple habits of life and attire, they required them. Q. Do you mean that the wages of labour are so low, and the gains of manufacturers so trifling, that they have nothing to bestow upon foreign commodities? — A. I believe that the wages of labour in no part is sufficient to enable them to purchase luxuries ; and *uch they consider every European article. Q. Do you consider that the natives are so wedded to their habits, as not to be likely to be induced to make any change in them, by intercourse with Eu- ropeans, or by the opportunity of purchasing European commodities ? — A. It is impossible for me to state what a century may effect in the change of men's man- ners ; but I am convinced no such sudden change can be expected, or is likely to take place. Q. Are their manners and their different wants of a nature that do not require any supply of European commodities? — A. Speaking of the general population, certainly they do not. Q. Is it the practice for the Indians of higher rank and greater wealth, to apply their superfluous wealth in the purchase of European commodities? — A. In the principal settlements and at some of the larger towns there are many natives who purchase articles of luxury, such as broad cloths, watches, and various articles. Their superfluous wealth is more generally expended in the usages and manners of their own country. H 56 EVIDENCE ON THE Some have purchased European articles, which has proceeded as much from the vanity of making the collection, as from any use to which they could be put. Q. Are you able to state whether the present mode of supplying, and the amount of supply of English and European articles sent to India, has been sufficient or more than sufficient to supply the demands of the natives ? — A. I never was at any principal town, or any military cantonment, (and I have been at most) that I did not see a superabundant supply of such ar- ticles, which the natives might have purchased, if they chose ; and that from my knowledge of the in^ dustry of native merchants, I have no doubt that there were numbers at such places, who would have carried those articles (if they could to any gain) to every other, part of the country in their vicinity. Q. Have you any access to know, from the situations you have been in in Persia, whether the Company have taken every means in their power to push the sale of European commodities in that quarter ; and if you have, state what the effect of those efforts has been ?* — A. I had an opportunity of knowing, that so eager was their desire to promote the sale of woollens in that quarter, that their agent had been allowed to sell them at a rate, and upon a credit, the result of which was a very considerable loss to government. I made every enquiry that was possible ; and in concluding the commercial treaty, obtained some diminution of the duties, but do not believe there was any increased EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 5 J sale. European articles were obtained from Astracan, and even British woollens. Q. Was every means taken by you to promote the sale of British commodities, in Persia, of every des- cription ? — A. I took every means within my power. Q. Have you found it practicable to promote the sale of English and European commodities there ?— A* I rendered the communication more amicable and easy. The trade was perfectly open to Bushire ; but the consumption of European articles in Persia, wit" the single exception of woollens, is, I believe, very trifling, chiefly on account of the general poverty of the mass of the community, and also from their own country furnishing all such articles as are necessary for their habits of life. Q. Besides the poverty of the country and of the people, does not the insecurity attending the convey- ance of commodities from one part of Persia to ano- ther, tend very much to prevent the sale of European commodities there ? — A. That must tend generally to interrupt the commercial intercourse of the country-. Q. Can you state whether, for the purposeof European or British consumption in the principal settlements of the Company in India, Indian artisans, or manufac- turers of European commodities, have established themselves in those settlements ? — A. They have, under the direction of European artisans. Q. Have European artisans began to settle there, and to carry on their trades ? — A. They have, coach- makers, upholsterers, boot and shoe-makers, leather ft* S3 EVIDENCE ON THE manufactories of all kinds, watch-makers, silver- smiths, all Europeans, with native workmen. Q. Do the produce of those 'manufactures tend to diminish the consumption of European commodities sent from Europe ? — A. They must, in a very con- siderable degree ; and they are extending. Q. Are not the Indians extremely ready in learning $ny handicraft art, and have they not been enabled to make those articles to very considerable perfection 5 — A. They are extremely apt ; various manufactures have been established. They make military accoutre- ments, boots, shoes and other articles, even to ladies* gloves ; carriages in very great perfection. Many of the half cast, or children of European fathers and native mothers, are employed in such trades. Q. From this aptitude on the part of the Indians, is it notlikely that they would in process of timesupply them- selves with all such articles, to a diminution of Euro- pean importation to India ? — A, There can be no doubt they would. I should conceive from the price of labour, that they will be enabled to make those articles cheaper ; I mean all such articles as the na- ture of the climate will admit of their manufacturing:. Examined by the Committee. Q. Do you think, or not, that the majority of the Hindoo population are contented with the British sway, at present ? — A. They appear to be so. Q. Do you think that the Mahomedan part are equally contented ?— A. The Mahomedan part may not be so much contented. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. J>9 Q. While the Hindoos are contented with the Bri- tish government, do you imagine that any discontents or attempts, on the part of the Mahomedans, could seriously affect the British power in India ? — A. I cer- tainly conceive that the attachment of the Hindoo po- pulation of India is the chief source of our security in India. , Q. Do you think that there are any motives by which the Mahomedans could excite in the Hindoos a disposition to unite with them in putting down the British power ? — A. 1 conceive there are no motives but such as should communicate to both a common sentiment of alarm or indignation at the conduct of the British government, or at that of any of its delegated authorities. Q. Do you think if any ground was furnished, to enable the Mahomedans to induce the Hindoos to make common cause with them, that the British pow- er must not be speedily overset ? — A. I can have no doubt that if a cause should operate, as is described fcy that question, our authority could not last a day. No. VL ABSTRACT, Wednesday, ^th April 181.3, Lieut. Colonel Sir JOHN MALCOLM was again called in and examined. Q. You are understood to have said, that the na- tives of India residing at Calcutta, Madras, and Bora- bay, have several articles of European manufacture in use amongst them ? — A. More of the natives of the presidencies were in the habit of using European ar- ticles, than of the natives in the provinces. I mean the wealthy natives; the remark did not at all apply to the mass of the population. Q. Is there not an express stipulation, by which the native powers engage not to permit the residence of unlicensed Europeans, without the consent of the British Government? — A. I believe there is. Q. Are there any prejudices, either civil or religi- ous, amongst Persians, that would render the intro- duction of European articles impracticable? — A. Cer- tainly not. Q. Are the Persians partial to European fire-arms ? — A. The Persian government was very solicitous to. EAST-INDIA GLUESTION'. 6 1 obtain both cannon and fire-arms from the English go- vernment; and the individual nobles of the military ctass in Persia were, as far as I could judge, very desirous of having our pistols ; but I never knew them anxious to have those upon any other terms but that of receiving them for nothing ; and they in ge- neral used a cheaper manufacture, arms made in Turkey and in their own country. I believe their objections to purchasing our fire-arms, was their price: I mean particularly English pistols. Q. Are woollens in use in Persia? — A. They are. Q. Do you know by what channel they get into Persia r — A. They are imported by the Persian Gulf; they also receive woollens by the Caspian Sea. Q. You have stated, that European articles are in- discriminately admitted into Persia; do you imagine that if wines or liquors were to be landed, they would be permitted to be imported into Persia ? — A. Wine or other liquors are certainly contrary to the Maho- medan religion ; they might no doubt be objected to. Q. Did you never know or hear of Europeans find- ing their way to the different courts, and being engaged in the military service ? — A. Numbers; both French and English. Q. Do not you suppose that if the trade of India was allowed indiscriminately to ships manned with Europeans, all along the peninsula coast of India, and not restricted to the principal settlements, such as Bombay, Madras, and Bengal, that there would be a facility given for European adventurers quitting the 62 EVIDENCE ON THE ships, and finding their way into the interior of India, notwithstanding every precaution of Government ?-*- A. The extent of coast to which such ships were al- lowed indiscriminately to resort, would, no doubt, greatly increase the difficulty of preventing their pe- netrating into the interior. Q. If the export trade from this country was to be restricted, so far as relates to the peninsula continent of India, to the principal settlements, such as Bom- bay, Madras, and Calcutta, do not you think in such case, that it might be very difficult for Europeans, by quitting their ships, to enter into the interior of the country ?— 'A. Most certainly. Q. Do you think it would be a very wise measure* for the security of the government of India, and also for regulating the trade to India, and preventing small- ttons, gunpowder, and other warlike stores being furnished to the different native powers who may be inimical to the interests of this country, to restrict the trade in European ships to the principal settle- ments ? — A. All attempts at contraband trade in arms or other things, cannot be attended with too severe restrictions ; and, in case of any increased number of Europeans, those restrictions ought to be rendered still more strict and severe. Q. Do you think the lower description of the native population would be able to purchase British commo- dities ? — A. Certainly not. Q. Are there not many merchants, natives, Par- sees and British, who are ready and who do endeavour EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 63 to push the sale of British manufactures up the Gulf of Persia, and to convey whatever artu les they think will be acceptable there ? — A. There are, both Euro- pean and native merchants, active, industrious and enterprising, and who trade in every quarter where they consider they can derive benefit. Q. Are there sales by auction of British articles at all our principal settlements ? — A. There are, to a very great extent. Q. Are not those articles frequently sold under the prime cost ? — A. I should suppose so, by their being sold by auction. Q. Are there not many places on the coast accessi- ble to ships ? — A. There are many parts where ships might touch, where there is no European magistrate. Q. Might not, through such places, a number of adventurers get into the interior ? — A. The difficulty*" of preventing it would be increased or diminished by the boldness or numbers of the parties who desired to penetrate. Q. You have stated that the wealthy inhabitants of the presidencies of India are in the habit of purchasing European goods ; are those purchases so made from the predilection which they have for such articles, or are they not most frequently made to gratify and to please Europeans ? — A. I believe so. Q. Supposing such motives not to exist, do you think that the purchase of European articles of India would be to any great extent? — A. It would be greatly diminished from what it is at present. I 64 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. Are there many mechanics, tradesmen, and planters, who are considered as colonists ? — A. There are. Q. Can you form any estimate of the number ? — A. I cannot. Q Do they amount to thousands ? — A. Certainly not. Q. Have net many of the natives learnt the im- provements and arts of civil life ? — A. Many have Jtearnfc mechanical arts ; but few, if any, have at all changed their usual modes of life. Q. Do you apprehend that any serious evils would arise from an increase of the number of such persons in, India as have been described ?■— A. It would en- tirely depend upon the character of such persons, and the restraints imposed upon them. «fl Q. Would then an influx of new adventurers, igno- rant of their language as well as of their manners and their superstitions, be very likely to give great and considerable offence to both their manners and super- stitions ? — A. It would doubtless lead to great disorders of every kind. Q. Supposing those who should speculate on going to India, under the presumed act for opening the 74 EVIDENCE 0>f THE trade, should be disappointed in such speculations, — to what means might they have recourse, to repair the loss t — A. If small vessels were allowed to navigate to India in very great numbers, the losses that they would incur (which I am certain would necessarily happen) might lead some of them to commit depre- dations on the small native vessels, to make up their losses ; that is a consequence that would most proba- bly follow. Q. Do you mean, with regard to such small ves- sels, that they would turn pirates? — A. We know that upon former occasions, upon a disappointment in trade, piracies did take place in many parts of India. Q. Is not piracy also much practised in the eastern seas by the natives ? — A. In the eastern Archipelago, and on the coast of Borneo, there are a great number of piratical vessels, that will never fail to endeavour to overpower vessels that are not extremely well armed. Q. Is it probable that, in the case of thus opening the trade, there will be any material increase in the consumption or purchase of European articles among the natives of India? — A. I by no means think there will ; I believe the great consumption of European articles is now, as it almost ever has been, by the.,, Europeans themselves. Q. Be pleased to give your reason for thinking that among the natives no particular increase of European consumption will take place? — A. Because the lower order of the natives have it not in their power to pur- chase those articles, even if they had the inclination ; EAST-INDIA aUESTIOK. 75 and the superior class of the natives have manufac- tures of their own, that they are more attached to, 1 than ours, and therefore have no great inclination for them : broad cloth, the useful metals, watches, some articles of ornament, mostly used at the principal settlements, such as looking-glasses, framed prints, lustres, and a small quantity of hardware, is all that I know the natives of Hindostan wish to take from us. Q. Have you observed any increased propensity m the natives to the adoption of European fashions, or the consumption of European articles ? — A, I do not see a greater inclination. Q. Do they, in the interior, assimilate still less to the European tastes and habits r — A. Infinitely less. Q. Can you state whether more manufacture of European articles is pursued now, in Calcutta and the other presidencies, than formerly ? — A. A great number of European artisans have established them- selves in almost all the great towns where there are Europeans ; they have taught the native artificers, who are very acute and dexterous, to execute every article in a manner almost to emulate those that are sent from England : but the whole of thece manufac- tures is for the use of Europeans, as they can furnish them at a cheaper rate than those of the same kind imported from Europe ; and I firmly believe that if we were by any means to leave Hindostan altogether, that they would entirely drop those manufactures, and employ themselves in carrying on their own- %6 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. If, in consequence of the proposed opening of the trade, the number of artificers should materially increase at those respective settlements, looking to the present skill of the natives as now described, and to the immense disproportion of labour between India and this country, do you think that in time such an ingress of artificers might not be the means of very much superseding the necessity for the importation of British manufactures to India ? — A. It has already in a great measure superseded that necessity, and the increase of articles which have gone from this country has not been in proportion to the increase of the Eu- ropean population. Q. Looking to the unlimited licence of ingress now proposed, and to the habits of the natives, ac- cording to your experience, do you think that such opening of the trade will be consistent either with the happiness of the natives, or with the security of the British interests in India ? — A. I do not think it can possibly be conducive to the happiness of the natives, and I think it would in a material degree risk our safety in that country. (Examined by the Committee.) Q. Supposing the foreign possessions to be restored, at a general peace, would not a promiscuous admis- sion of British subjects to India render it next to impossible to prevent their access to the interior be- coming very general, and also facilitate their entrance into the service of the native powers ? — A. Undoubt- EAST-INDIA GUESllON. 77 edly I think it would very much facilitate their en- trance into the interior; and, in that event, it would be much more dangerous than it is at this time. Q. Supposing the trade opened to the eastern islands, might not adventurers settle in them ; and, being without controul, become pirates, and embroil Britain in serious difficulties with the empire of China ? — A. There are many places in 4he eastern islands, where, bv a concerted plan of a few European vessels, they could establish themselves, and even for- tify themselves in such manner, so as to give govern- ment much trouble in rooting them out. Q. Have you not known, in many instances, when trading to the Malay ports, that the ships and cargoes have been seized, and the whole of the crews mur- dered, by the natives r — A. There is nothing so common. Q If the intercourse is enlarged by vessels from this country, do not you think that those accidents would much more frequently occur? — A, I do not conceive that the possible profit would justify the ex- pense of fitting out and arming vessels from this country ; I know of no articles that they could carry from Great Britain, that would answer the purpose. The whole of the articles of commerce are Opium, a small quantity of Piece-goods, and a peculiar species of silk known by the name of Muggaduties; a few Lascar knives and red woollen caps. I do not believe ihey indulge in European articles in any way : I t 73 EVIDENCE ON THE should therefore conceive, that any speculation from Great Britain, directly to the Malay coast, would end in a total loss. Q. Does not that coast abound with Poligar popu- lation, and have not the Poligars been always re- markable for their contempt of authority, and their attachment to arms ? — A. The Poligar country has been the scene of warfare and dissention. Q. What effect do you think would be produced upon the peace of the country, and the British power there, if the Poligars had the means of procuring arms from private traders and private ships ? — A. The making them more turbulent and unmanageable than they are, WILLIAM YOUNG, Esq. was examined as follows : \_Mr. Ada?n.']—£. Had you an opportunity, in the period of your services under the East-India Com- pany, to make full observation upon the nature of the Indian character ? — A, I had. Q. Do vou consider that an unrestrained influx of Europeans would be attended with evil consequences ? — A, With very serious evil consequences. Q. State to the Committee in what respect?—^?. From their violence, and from their ignorance of the usages, ways, and habits of the people, particularly with respect to their religious habits. Q, From the Indian character, do vou conceive that EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 7£ the general bulk of the people are likely to become customers for European commodities ? — • A. If by European commodities is understood articles of mer- chandize, they are customers in some decree. Q. In what degree are they customers ? — A. They purchase various articles imported by the East-India Company, such as broad cloth, long ells, and other sorts of woollen manufactures, also metals of various sorts ; but scarcely any thing else. Q. Was the means of supply, through the medium of the Company's ships, sufficient to answer the In- dian demand ? — A. Always most ample. Q. Was there a likelihood of alteration, so as to produce an increased demand for European commo* dities f — A, I do not think that there was. (Examined by the Committee.) Q. Is there generally a superabundance of British manufactures to be sold at Calcutta ? — A. In my time there was. Q. Are there auctions frequently of British manu- factures at Calcutta ? — A. Frequently. Q. Are not British manufactures frequently sold there under their prime cost ? — A. I have myself, more than once, purchased articles for less than they had cost in Great Britain. Q. Are there not a number of private native mer- chants, and British merchants there, who, if they could make any profit by buying those British manu- factures at that reduced price, would purchase them, L 2 80 EVIDENCE ON THE " if they could find a vent for them amongst the na- tives {—A. I have not a doubt that there are such persons, and that they would avail themselves of rt. DAVID HALI BURTON, Esq. was examined. Mr. Jackson J] — Q. Did your situation, under the East-India Company, and that of Persian translator, give you ample opportunities of studying the charac- ter of the natives ? — A. I endeavoured to do so. Q. Did you acquaint yourself with their habits, manners, and prejudices ? — A. I believe so. Q. Supposing British subjects to be allowed the right of going from every port in the United King- dom to every port in India, and a material influx of Europeans to take place in consequence, what effect do you apprehend that might have upon the British interests in India? — A. It would be injurious to the interests of the British government in India. Q. State your reasons ? — A. When Europeans first arrive they have a great contempt for the natives, and suppose themselves a superior order of beings ; they* often maltreat them, and hurt their feelings, without supposing that they are doing so, in respect of their manners, and their religious customs, and other preju- dices. It has been found necessary, when large bodies of Europeans have arrived at Madras, in the navy, for example, to put them under restraint, for fear of their "ivincr offence to the natives. Q. Have you observed this disposition to contempt £AST-INDIA GllESTION. 81 and ill usage has been less among those persons who have acquainted themselves with the native lan- guages ? — A. Yes. Q. Are not the Company's servants enjoined to learn those languages immediately upon their arrival? — A. Very much. Q. Are the Company's servants very anxiously enjoined by the higher authorities to respect the preju- dices, religious and civil, of the natives ? — A. Cer- tainly ; at all times strictly enjoined. Q. Did they succeed in maintaining that deference and feeling ? — A. They did. Q. Do you apprehend that an influx of strangers, such as seamen, traders, and artificers, ignorant of the language and ignorant of the customs, might not be the means, either wilfully or ignorantly, of giving very serious offence to the natives? — A. Certain- ly it must have that effect. Q. Looking to the length of the coast on cither side of the peninsula, do you think that British subjects, having a right to visit every port, as well as to coast from port to port at their discretion, many such persons would not have it in their power to get into the interior, if so disposed? — A. Yes. Q. In consequence of opening the trade, is any material increase of demand likely to take place? — A. I think not. Q. State why ? — A. From tbe habits and the few wants that the people of the country have. Even at Madras, which is the oldest English establishment in India, for it dates as far back as 1620, one would 82 EVIDENCE ON THS suppose that the people there would be more in the habit of using English articles, than at any other place, but the purchase of those articles there is confined to very few. Q Are their habits of a fixed and unchangeable nature ? — A. Certainly. Q. During the whole of the time of your residence for twenty five years, did you observe any increasing taste in the native population towards the Europeans, or to the consumption of European articles ? — A. None towards the habits of the Europeans ; few to purchase European articles of furniture in their houses, and to a very small extent. Q. Did you observe any progressive increasing taste in general, towards English articles among the na- tives ? — A. None. Q. Did such of the natives as acquired property, direct their expenditure towards the purchase of English articles? — A. Perhaps watches, and a few toys, or glass ware, but to a very inconsiderable amount. Q Was there an ample supply of European arti- cles ? — A. Yes, certainly. Q. If the mass of the natives had been disposed to such purchase, would they have bad the means ? — A. Certainly. Q. Can you contemplate any possible increased demand for European articles, which the present sys_ tern is not more than equal fully to supply ? — A. Y think not. EAST-INDIA GLUESTI0I4. 83 v GRiEME MERCER, Esq. was examined. \_Mr. Impel/.'] Q Are you acquainted with the Persian and Hindostanee languages ? — A. I am. Q. From your knowledge of the character of the natives, do you think that, if a free trade were au- thorized by law, between this kingdom and India ; and free traders were permitted to go from hence, and to penetrate into the country, and to reside in it at plea- sure, such permission would be attended with any mischief, and what, to the peace and happiness of the natives ? — A. It would be attended with great detri- ment to their happiness, from the violent character and disposition of the Europeans, who would be thus probably forced into an intercourse with them, and who are apt to indulge an habitual contempt for their manners, customs, and religious tenets ; this would consequently lead, and does actually lead, Europeans of this class, to treat the natives with contumely and insult. Q. Are you of opinion, that the prejudices of the natives are much more likely to be violated by such persons, than by those who are in the service of the East-India Company ? — A. I can have no hesitation in answering that question in the affirmative. Q. Does not ignorance of the country languages in Europeans often produce disputes with the natives ? — A. There can be no doubt of it. Q. Are not the quarrels likely to arise from inter- course with such newly arrived Europeans, likely to produce discontents, on the part of the native inha- 84 EVIDENCE ON THE bitants, against the government of the country?—^. There can be little doubt that would be the result. Q. If violences were offered to the natives at any great distance from the presidencies, by any newly arrived Europeans, would there be any adequate mode of bringing them to justice ? — A. None, but con^ veying those Europeans back to the principal settle- ments, for the purpose of trial and punishment. Q. If a free trade were opened with India, in your opinion would there he any increased demand among the natives of India for European articles or manufac- tures ? — I am decidedly of opinion, that if any increase of demand could exist, it would be very gradual, and very inconsiderable for a very long period of time. Q. Have the mass of the population in India either the means or the desire of purchasing any European manufactures 5 — A. I am not 'of opinion that they have any desire, and I am certain that the great body of the people have not the means. Q. Among the higher ranks of the natives, is not the desire of purchasing European manufactures and commodities extremely limited? — ^. Very limited. Q. You have been at the Nizam's court ; is not that considered as one of the richest of the native courts in India ? — A. It was so considered. Q. If opulent persons there, have a desire for pur- chasing European manufactures and articles, would they not have an opportunity, under the present sys- tem of trade? — A. They certainly would. Q, Did you observe any European articles, in the fcASt-INDlA «lUESTION. 83 possession of the Nizam, or any of the opulent inha- bitants of Hydrabad ? — A. I do not recollect any, ex- cept a pair of lustres, which were sent by His present Majesty as a present to the Nizam. Q. Has the Bengal government used every effort in their jwwer to introduce the use of European eotnmo- ditiei into the ceded districts of Oude ? — A. Gover- nor General Lord Wellesley gave every facility to the communication in trade, and to the vent of British commodities in those countr.es. He instituted fairs, where immense numbers of people from the northern countries meet those of the Company's provinces, for purposes of barter, but this experiment was entirely unsuccessful, from the small quantities that could be sold, hardly sufficing to pay the expenses of the con- veyance. Q. Can you form any estimate how many persons at- tend the fair? — A. Atthe annual fairs it is supposed that from two to three hundred thousand arecollected; when particular religious ceremonies are observed there, the number is computed to be almost a million of people. Q. What manufactures are made use of in those cold countries, which prevent the natives of them from purchasing British woollens when offered to them ? — A. The lower ranks of people wear coarse woollens of their own manufacture ; and the higher ranks are Clothed in shawls. Q. Are not the natives of India generally a manu- facturing people, skilful in manufacturing operations, and likely to provide for themselves whatever manu- M &6 EVIDENCE ON THE * factures they stand in need of? — A. They are very much so, and have hardly any, if any wants from fo- reign countries. Q. Have not many of the natives been lately taught European arts ? — A. Many native artisans have been taught, and are now settled in every principal town or station where Europeans reside, and furnish a great proportion of the articles required by Europeans. Q. Has not the market for European commodities been fully equal to the demand ? — A. I have never found a deficiency in any part of the country. Q. In your opinion, is not the present system fully adequate to the supply ? — A. In my opinion, perfectly adequate. Examined by the Committee. Q. Have you any knowledge of the Company, in sending the goods up in order to be sold and disposed of at that fair, having given instructions that those goods should be sold considerably under prime cost, in order to give samples, to several districts with which we had been hitherto unacquainted, of British mer- chandize ? — A. I cannot positively state that ; but I believe the general wish of the government was to en- courage, by every possible means, the sale of those goods, and that the prices intended to be asked were fixed almost without profit. Q. The experiment was not attended with success ? — A, It failed. EAST-INDIA aiTESTION. 87 DAVID VANDERHEYDEN, Esq. a Member of the House; was examined :n his place. \Mr. Jachoni] -Q. Did the situations which you have filled in India enable you to form an accurate judgement of the character and manners, and the ge- neral disposition of the natives? — A. I think they did. Q. Are you acquainted with their general civil and religious prejudices ? — A. Certainly I am. Q. Supposing, in consequence of an open trade and free access to every port in India, there should be a considerably increased number of Europeans, indis- criminate as to their pursuits and characters, what ef- fect do you suppose it would produce upon the general British interests ? — A. A most pernicious effect. Q. State in what respect? — A. From the discordance of the European character from that of the natives, and the contempt and contumely with which Eu- ropeans on their first arrival, and particularly the lower orders, treat the natives. Q. Do you think that such intercourse would ma- terially affect the happiness of the natives ? — A. I think essentially. Q. What do you think might be the political con- sequence of such an intercourse ? — A. In that point of view, it would have a most pernicious effect, as tending to degrade the European character. Q. What consequence wouloT you apprehend from such degradation * — A, The consequence must be ob- vious, when we consider the great disparity of number* M 2 SS EVIDENCE ON THE between the Europeans who controul there, and Che immense population of the country. Q. Do you think that the estimation which you describe as essential to the upholding of the govern* ment, might be materially and seriously affected by such intercourse } — A. I certainly think it would. Q. Do you think that the sort of usage you appre- hend from such an indiscriminate influx of people, might drive the natives to extremities ? — A. I should think it would. Q. At present, are the British subjects amenable to any but the principal court at the presidency ? — A, They are amenable only to the principal court at Calcutta. Q. Supposing the earnings of these people to be, as has been stated, from three to five shillings a month, doy ou think it within a possibility, that such injured natives should obtain legal redress ? — A. Certainly not ; but it is not unusual, when accidents of this kind happen, for the government to supply the native with the means of proceeding to Calcutta. Q. If, from indiscriminate intercourse, the number of offences should increase, do you think that that mode of redress could continue to be pursued ? — A. Certainly not. Q. Supposing this free trade from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's charter, and looking to the line of either coast of the peninsula, do you think it would be pos- sible to prevent such persons as have been described, SA8T-INDIA 6LUE9T10N. 89 from gaining admission into the interior? — A> I think it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. Q. Supposing new adventurers to succeed in getting into the interior of the country, do you apprehend that any political evil might arise therefrom ? — A, Yes, very great political evils. Q. Be pleased to state such evils ? — A. From their intrigues at native courts, and in fomenting disturb- ances. Q. Do you think that such persons, supposing their object to be that of military or political service, might not find secret or open encouragement at such native courts ? — A. Yes, there have been various instances of Europeans in a low situation of life, getting into the interior of the country, and rising to situations of great importance. Q. If the supposed ingress should consist of seamen, tradesmen, and artificers, do you apprehend that, from their ignorance of the language and manners of the natives, those dangers of insults and oppressions towards the natives would be in proportion ? — A. They would be likely to commit great disorders. Q. Supposing such open trade to take place, do you apprehend it would lead to any materially increased demand for European articles, for the purposes of the consumption of the natives ? — A. I should apprehend not ; their manners, customs, religion, the whole state of their society, preclude the probability of any increase of the consumption of European manufac- tures ; and above all, the slender circumstances of the 90 EVIDENCE ON THE mass of the people render it, I should almost say, im- possible. Q. Does this poverty of circumstances, to the de- gree which precludes the purchase of European ar- ticles, apply to much the greater proportion of the the natives ? — A. By far the greater proportion; almost entirely. Q. Did you observe any progressive advances in the natives towards assimilation to European habits or manners ? — A. None whatever. Q. Among those who possessed wealth, in what way did they generally direct their expenditure ; was it towards the purchase of European articles ? — A, Very little ; their taste does not lie that way at all. Q. Do you mean among the higher orders ?-— A. 1 he others are precluded from their narrow circum- stances, and indeed from their inclination. Q. Have any material proportion of the higher orders showed any disposition towards the purchase or consumption of European articles? — A. Very few. Q. Were such expenditures regarded as compli- mentary to the European characters among whom they resided r — A. In the case of the Nabob of Oude, I believe it was really his taste, and, being a man of im- mense wealth, it was one means that he had of gra- tifying himself. Q. Do you know whether that taste in any degree communicated itself to his subjects :* — A. I believe not at all. EAST-INDIA ftUESTION. 9* Q. Can you say, whether, during the time that you were India, there was always a full and ample supply of European articles ? — A. Quite abundant. Q. Will you name such European articles as the natives were in the habit of purchasing ? — A. There were instances of natives purchasing an European carriage, but those were amongst the highest orders ; occasionally some glasses, or a lustre ; I think those are nearly all the articles. Q. Generally speaking, then, almost the whole of the import of European articles into India, were for European purchase or consumption <—A. Almost ex- clusively for European consumption. Q. Do you know whether there has been an in- creasing disposition in the Indian artificers to manu- facture articles for European use }—A. Yes, they are very ingenious, and excellent imitators. Q. Supposing, in consequence of the increased fa- «ility of visiting India, that an increased number of artificers should go there, and looking to the immense disproportion of the price of labour between India and this country, do you apprehend that in time the necessity of import of British manufactures might not thereby be in a great degree superseded ? — A I should think it would annually diminish, from that cause, Q. Looking to any probable increase of European population or the Indian wants, do you believe that the present system, properly regulated, will afford as full and ample means for the supply of European 92 EVIDENCE ON THE manufactures as can be required for the market of India? — A. I think the system, as it exists at pre- sent, is fully ample for that purpose. Q. Looking to so general and so indiscriminate an accession of Europeans, as has been described, do you believe that it would be consistent with the security of the British Empire in India, or with the happiness of the natives ? — A. I certainly think it would not. Q. Do you apply that, to both branches of the pro. position ? — A. Undoubtedly. Examined by the Committee. Q. Would the evils that you have complained of as likely to result from an unrestricted trade to the East- Indies, be lessened by vessels returning to London instead of the outports ? — A. I do not think that would obviate it in any degree. GUY LENOX PRENDERGAST, Esq. was examined. Mr. Grant.~\—^Q. Has it fallen within your oppor- tunities to make yourself fully acquainted with the characters, habits, institutions, and prejudices of the native population of British India ? — A. During the time I resided at Baroach as resident, I had no other society whatever but the natives, and had an oppor- tunity of intercourse with almost all ranks of them ; and had a full opportunity of becoming acquainted with their habits, characters and language. Q. State whether the manners, habits, and institu- tions of the natives, are not such as seem strange to Europeans ? — A, Very dissimilar and strange. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 93 Q. Have you observed in Europeans unacquainted with the national peculiarities of the natives, a ten- dency to insult their prejudices or make light of their peculiarities ? — A. It is remarkable that on Europeans first arriving in India, they are disposed to treat the natives, their religious ceremonies, and their preju- dices, with a considerable degree of contempt and derision. Q. Supposing a free ingress of Europeans to be permitted into the ports of British India and a free intercourse to take place between the Europeans so in- troduced and the natives, what effects would you ap- prehend to the welfare of the natives, and the stability of the British government ? — A. Such unrestrained admission of Europeans into the Guzzerat country- would be productive of the greatest possible disorder ; the local authorities, as at present constituted, would be totally unable to controul or regulate them.. Q. Supposing frequent resort of the vessels of pri- vate British adventurers to the Malabar coast, would it not be practicable for the crews of those vessels to effect a landing on some part of that coast, and to penetrate into the interior of the country ? — A. No doubt ; in the fine season, almost all along that coast, crews might land, and proceed almost in any direc- tion they pleased. Q. Are you not of opinion that very great abuses might result from the occurrence of such an event ?— - A. The greatest possibi abuses and disorder. Q. Do you conceive that such abuses might issue N 94 EVIDENCE ON THE in consequences dangerous to the stability of the Bri- tish government in India? — A. Most dangerous to the British government in India. Q. Have you observed a taste for the use of Euro- pean commodities ? — A. I have not observed any dis- position or taste among the natives of Guzzerat for European articles. Q. Is not property very unequally distributed in that country ? — A. Yes. Q. Have you found a 4aste for European commodi- ties among the higher orders of the Indian society ? — A. I have not observed any such disposition. Q. Do you mean that remark to include persons who have had both the means and option of using European commodities }—A. I do. Q. Can you state whether there has been a growing taste for European commodities among the higher orders of the native population ? — A. They have beea perfectly stationary. Q. Are not the domestics employed in the house- holds of Europeans in that country, generally natives? — A. They are, almost without exception. Q. Are persons in menial situations found to imbibe European tastes, or affect European fashions r — A. I do not think they are. I Q. Supposing that in some very limited degree the Hindoo and Mahomedan population of Bombay have adopted the use of European commodities, would not you ascribe this circumstance wholly to the very inti- mate intercourse which has subsisted between those people and the European inhabitants ? — A. Entirely. EAST-INDIA ftUESTION. 9 3 Q. Supposing then, for the sake of argument, that it be possible to promote an extensive consumption of European commodities in the interior of the country; must it not be supposed, as a condition to that event, that a very extensive intercourse shall have taken place between the inhabitants of the interior and British subjects ? — A. It does not appear to me that any in- tercourse between the Europeans and natives of the interior, that is at all within the bounds of probability, could in a century induce them to use European arti- cles, or to adopt European manners. Q. With respect to the great mass of the Indian population, state whether they have the means of purchasing European commodities ? — A, They have not. Q. Is not the price of labour in that country, both for agricultural and manufacturing purposes, incom- parably lower than in the countries of Europe ? — A. Incomparably lower. Q. What is the average price either of agricultural or manufacturing labour on the Malabar coast ? — A. It may vary from about five shillings to about fifteen shillings a month. Q. Do you conceive that this extreme cheapness of labour results from casual and transitory causes, or partly from fixed peculiarities in the soil, produce, and climate of the country, and partly from peculiari- ties, scarcely less fixed, in the characters, modes, and institutions of the native population ? — A. From the extreme fertility of the soil, the cheapness of all V 2 96 EVIDENCE ON THE articles of food and raiment ; the monthly wages of labour are quite proportioned to the wants of the common native. Q Labour then being from fixed causes so much cheaper in the countries of India than in the countries of Europe, do you conceive that, under any circum- stances, the countries of Europe are likely to be on a great scale, manufacturing countries for the countries of India? — A. I do not think they are; the general wants of the natives are supplied in their own country. Q. Whatever improvement therefore may hereafter take place in the condition of the Indian people, is there any rational prospect of such an advancement in their means of purchase, as shall place European commodities generally within their reach ? — A. I do not think there is ; and if they were within their reach ? I do not think they shew any disposition to possess them. Q. Do not you ascribe the advantage with which, Indian commodities enter the markets of Europe,, principally to the unexampled cheapness of Indian labour ? — I should think so. Q. Supposing, therefore, such an ultimate increase in the wages of the labouring population of India, as should place European commodities within their reach, would not the same circumstance proportionably enhance the price of Indian commodities in the English market ? — A. No doubt it would. Q. Has the Bombay government shewn an anxiety EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 97 to promote the consumption of European commodities among the natives under its supervision ? — A. It has long been an anxious object to obtain a vent for Eu- ropean articles in the interior, but the thing was not practicable. Q. Do you conceive that the present system of trade is sufficient to meet any increase which may take place in the demand for European commodities among tho natives of India ? — A. Quite sufficient. No. VIII. ABSTRACT, Friday, gth April 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. WILLIAM BRUCE SMITH, Esq. was examined. [Mr. Admii] — Q. From your residence in India for more than forty years as merchant and cultivator of land, had you an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the characters of the native Indians? — A. I had. Q. Did you make any endeavours at any time to sell any articles of British or European manufac- ture ? — A. I have, but without success, they were in no request. Q. What were the articles? — A. Glass and Wedg- wood's ware, which I was obliged to return. Q. Can you assign any cause? — A* There was no demand : the natives did not require them. Q. Do the natives manufacture articles of that description for their own use? — A. Those are articles not in use among the natives. Q. Do you consider the difficulties, in propagating the sale of European commodities, to arise both EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 99 from the character of the natives, and from their want of capita] ? — A. From both. Q. During forty years did the natives make any progress towards an alteration of manners or customs? — A. Very little. Q. Have you any reason to believe such alteration is likely to take place, as to produce a general demand on the part of the natives for European commodities? — A. I am afraid not. Q. Had you from your dealings with the natives, an opportunity of becoming accurately acquainted with the price of labour? — A. I had. Q. Can you state the ordinary amount of a la- bourer's wages per day ? — A. One ana a day, the sixteenth part of half-a-crown. Q. Do those wages afford any means of purchasing any thing beyond their daily food and their necessary raiment? — A. Nothing more. Q. In what manner do the ordinary agriculturalists in India clothe themselves and their families ? — A. A piece of linen cloth for their head and one for their body. _ Q. Was that the invariable dress ? — A. Of the lower class it was. Q. Have they ever, in any respect, altered? — A. I never saw the smallest alteration. Q. Is there any difference between the wages of the cultivator of the land and the manufacturer ? — A. The manufacturer generally has double. Q. Is his dress and his food, and that of his 100 . EVIDENCE ON THE family, equally simple with that of the labourer ? — A. Exactly. Q. Is there any disposition on the part of the labouring manufacturer to become the purchaser of European commodities or of British goods ? — A. I think not, they could be of no use to him. Q. Have you reason to believe that an unrestrained influx of British or European subjects would be likely to disturb the harmony of the natives, and the go- vernment in India? — A, I think it might. Q. In what respect? — A. From their being unre- strained in their proceedings. Q. Would they be likely to violate those customs and usages which would give offence to the native inhabitants? — A. Most likely ■, from not knowing the consequences. Q. Have you ever attended at any of the fairs in India? — A. I have. Q. Have you ever seen European commodities or British commodities offered for sale there? — A. I have seen broad-cloth and some few articles of cutlery there. Q. Do you consider that the present mode of sup- plying the Indian market with British or European commodities, is adequate to the demand ? — A. Fully adequate. Q. Had you in the culture of the land, or bringing in the waste lands that you cultivated, any occasion to use any implements of British construction? — A. None at all. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. J 01 Q. Was all the work of cultivation carried on by the natives, and with the implements of the country? — A. Entirely. Q. Do the wealthy Indians apply any part of their superfluous wealth in the purchase of European or British commodities? — A. With very few exceptions, they purchase none at all. (Examined by the Committee.) Q. What do you imagine will practically be the consequence of the agents of the British merchants going into the interior of India, under a legislative enactment, to push the enterprise and capital of the British merchants ? — A. I think it might be attended with very serious consequences. Q. What proportion of the population do you imagine would be able, if willing, to purchase articles of British produce or manufacture? — A. They must alter very much in their modes of life, to use the articles of European manufacture at all. Q. In the cold weather, do you not think that the cheaper British woollen manufactures, and some other articles, might find a vent there ? — A. They might find a vent, if at a very reduced price, if they were coarse, and very cheap. Q. Have the natives any coarse warm manufacture of their own, fitted for the purchase of the lower orders? — A. They quilt cotton stuff, and use blankets of their own manufacture. Q. Could the lowest and cheapest kind of the Bri- o 102 EVIDENCE ON THE tish woollens be sold as cheap as their own manufac* tures?— A. I have never seen any that were so cheap. Q. What probability is there of any increase of property or improvement amongst the lower order of Indians ; how far do you think they would change their occupation, and have the means of bettering their condition? — A. They have not the smallest in- clination to change their occupations. 2. Among those who do acquire property, does there appear any inclination to purchase European or British manufactures? — A. I have not seen the small lest inclination. Q. Are there or not British artisans and manufac- turers, who work and produce many of those articles that used formerly only to be brought from Britain ? — A. A great many. Q. Are those articles equally fitted for sale and for use ? — A. In some instances they are better adapted for the climate, but in general inferior. Q. Can those articles be afforded cheaper ? — A. Always cheaper. Q. Will not the consequence of those articles being afforded at a cheaper rate, be to diminish the import of the same articles from Great-Britain ? — A. They consequently do. Q. Arc there not auctions of British articles ? — A. Daily and frequently ; the captains and officers of ships are obliged to sell their investments in that way, when the ships are quitting the stations. 2. JIavje hot the captains of ships and the officers* '■. \ ' 7 EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 103 in consequence of their privilege, the means of ex- porting articles from this country to India free from duty and from the expense of brokerage and other duties ? — A. They have. Q. Those articles are frequently put up to auction? — - A. Those articles that remain when they are obliged to go away, of course are sold by auction. Q. Does it come within your knowledge, whether they are frequently cheaper than they could be im- ported from England ? — A. I have heard so. The Hon. HUGH LINDSAY, was examined. [Mr. Adam.~\ — Q How long have you command- ed a ship in the Company's service ? — A. I have been seven voyages as a commander in the Company's ser- vice ; six to India, and One to China. Q. Have you carried out various investments of English or European articles for sale in India? — I have. Q. Have you carried them out as your privilege as captain ? — A. In my privilege as a captain. Q. Is the privilege of a captain free from all freight and other expenses ? — A. It is. Q. State what market you have found in India for your articles ? — A. On two different voyages £ had tolerably good markets, the others very indiffe- rent indeed. Q. Was the want of a market Owing to the defect of purchasers, or to the market being overstocked ? **-A. To the market being overstocked. • 2 104 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. Are the purchasers of British or European ar- ticles European and English settlers or natives ? — A, Both. Q. Who are the consumers of those articles ? — A. With a very small exception, the Europeans. Q. Can you state in what rank in society, or of what description, the native customers for those articles are ? — A. I cannot say. 2. Have you ever had commissions from the natives to carry out European goods to India? — A. I have, on two or three occasions, had commissions from the native merchants. Q. Is that all you have ever had in the seven voy- ages you have made to India ? — A. It is ; and I have frequently requested the native merchants to consider whether there might not be some new article that I might bring from Europe for them ; their reply was, that there was nothing they could think of as a new article that they could desire me to bring, and that their retail was almost entirely for Europeans 2. Do you consider that the present mode of sup- plying European and British articles to the settle- ments in India, is sufficient to answer the demand ? — • A. I consider it more than sufficient, to afford a profit. 2, Would the effect of opening the trade and exportation to India be such as to tend to the im- provement of the market for British and European goods in that country ? — A. I should consider it wouid tend to a great loss in the markets in India, EAST- INDIA UUESTION. 105 and that no persons vvould benefit by it but the auctioneers. 2. Are you acquainted with the character of tlve native Indians, and how far their habits are likely to create a consumption of European articles? — A* Their habits are not lively to create any consumption of European articles. 2. Have you ever had any intercourse with the Eastern islands ? — A. I have. 2. Have you had intercourse in the way of trade? — A. Not in the way of trade, I never found they would buy any thing. g. Did you go there to propose any object of trade? — A. In the year 1801 1 was senior captain of a fleet of eight sail of ships ; and although we had, 1 believe, on board that fleet, every article that is exported from this country, yet we could not find any article in which we could pay for the cattle we received, by way of barter for the refreshments. (Examined by the Committee.) Q. Do the natives in Calcutta work in shoes and in leather ? — A. They make exceedingly good boots and shoes. 2. Are those articles equally fitted for sale, as the same articles brought from Great-Britain ? — A. They are not quite so good, but they are very much cheaper ; except in the glut of a market, when European goods are sold at 50 per cent, less than they cost in London. 106 EVIDENCE ON THE ' ■ 2. Would not the consequence of those articles being afforded at a cheaper rate, be to diminish the import of the same articles from Great Britain ? — A. It has diminished the import to India. Q. Is it not then probable, that in the course of no very long time the increase of artisans and manu- frcturers may prevent the importation altogether of British articles ? — A. I think it very probable in- deed. Q. Are you yourself acquainted with the qualities and the value of the articles which you purchase for an investment to India ? — A. Most intimately. Q. Do you yourself select the various articles of the manufactures of this country which you employ as investments to India ? — A. Invariably. Q. The cargoes were always sold ? — A: Yes, they were always sold ; sometimes at a very considerable loss. If I had never traded in articles for export from this country, I should have been richer ; I have lost by my outward-bound investment. 2, That loss would have been diminished, either by a lower purchase of goods in this country, or a more advantageous sale in India ? — A. Certainly. 2. Is not the principal object of investments to effect a remittance for the purpose of a return cargo ? — A, It is, in the first instance, in the hope of Electing a good market in India; no doubt, a part of the money is employed in a remittance back. Q. Has it been usual for the Company to purchase EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 10/ more cotton than they require for themselves r — A, It has been. Q. Has that been with a view of accommodating the commanders, or to promote their own interests ? — A, To promote the views of their commanders. . Q. You have said^ that you have known invest- ments of ships, that did not find a market, sold by auction ; have you known it to happen that those articles of British produce have been sold at those auctions at a cheaper rate than they could be import- ed immediately from England ? — A. Frequently at. fifty per cent, discount. . Q. Arc there not many native merchants and British, merchants residing at those places, who, if they could find a vent for those articles among the natives, or in any other way, would have been glad to have seized the opportunity of purchasing them so much cheaper than they could themselves have imported them ? — A. I have been informed by the native merchants, thnt they would give no more commissions, because they found that they could purchase the goods infinitely cheaper than any of us could afford to bring them. 2. In consequence of those auctions r — A. Yes, in consequence of those auctions ; and I may say, every season I was there, there was a glut at the latter part of the season, and a great many more goods than there was a demand for in the market. 108 EVIDENCE ON THE LESTOCK WILSON, Esq. was examined as follows. ' [Mr. Adam.'] — Q. How long have you been en- gaged in a house trading to the East-Indies ? — A. Since the year 1802, as an India agent, receiving con- signments from thence, and sending out when ordered goods from this country. '• Q. Can you state the nature of the goods, or prin- cipally what the nature of the goods has been, that you have been ordered to send out to India ? — A. Very few articles indeed, and to an inconsiderable amount. Q. Specify any of them ? — A. Iron and lead, foreign wines, and other articles. Q. Do you consider those articles as having been meant for European or Indian consumption ? — A. The iron for Indian consumpion, I should suppose; wine certainly for European consumption. Q. The other articles for general consumption ? — A. Yes, but mostly by Europeans. Q. Do you consider the means afforded -by -the Company for exportation of articles to India are suf- ficient ? — A. I should think they are. Q. Can you state any particular instances in which you have found it difficult to obtain the means of com- pleting a shipment of goods to India ? — A. I am un- der the greatest difficulty, at this moment, having a ship which is to return to India, and finding it ex- tremely difficult indeed to find commodities to put into her, that are likely to produce their prime cost ; and if the Company had not relaxed a little, and givea EASftMNDIA QUESTION. 10^ to* leave to carry out goods, which it was in their op- tion to do or not, we could not have sent back the ship at all, except in ballast : the fact is, that there are but four articles in her cargo, within my recollection, which are the produce of this country or its dependencies, namely, empty glass bottles, and I believe there may be twenty or thirty tons of English iron, (there may be as much Swedish). There are about twenty or thirty casks of porter or ale, not chusing to risk more, and some chalk; those are the only articles of the produce of this country that we chose to risk our money in. Q. You consider those the' only articles that are likely to bring a profit in an Indian market? — A. At present, certainly. Q. In your dealings with the Company for the pur- pose of obtaining the facilities of exportation, have you found them to be such as to answer every purpose of the trade ? — A. We have certainly suffered some inconveniences, but very trifling. Q. Do you then consider that the difficulty in find- ing articles for exportation, arises from the want of a market, or from any other cause? — A. From the want of a market; from the circumstance of its being glutted, owing to too many of those things being sent out. Q. Have you ever seen any manufacture of boots or shoes in India ? — A. They certainly make shoes, and very good shoes, all over India. Q. Are there any circumstances in the present state of the Indian market likely to encourage a more en- larged trade than that which now exists }*—• A, I should P 110 EVIDENCE ON THE suppose the number of ships employed from this coun- try to that, convey an ample quantity of those com- modities to supply all the demand which can be made. (Examined by the Committee.) Q. Do you know whether there were auctions fre- quently, of European commodities ? — A. Certainly. Q. Were those commodities sold cheaper or dearer than they could be imported from Europe ? — A. Some- times they sold very badly indeed. Q. Are there not native merchants and British merchants there, that would purchase those commo- dities whenever they could be bought at that cheap rate, if they imagined they could find a vent for them among the natives or the Europeans ?— A> There are. Q. Are there English artisans and manufacturers who now work up many articles which used to be brought from England? — A. Certainly, furniture and carriages. Q. And other articles that used to be imported from England? — A. Yes. Q, Do not you conceive that, in as far as those arti- cles are furnished there, they diminish so much the importation from England? — A. I should suppose they would. Q. Have you been engaged considerably in the im- portation of the productions of India, such as cottoa and indigo ? — A, We have had several consignments of that kind ; we have a consignment of cotton re- main : ng on hand at this moment, which has been ia> this country these three years. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. Ill Q. Does that arise from the quality of that cotton being particularly inferior to Indian cotton or from the price ? — A. It arises from the depreciated value of the article in the market ; certainly there has been no opportunity of i-elling it at any thing like the cost of it. Q. You are aware that the staple articles of iron, steel, copper, and lead, would generally, if not always, yield a saving remittance to a very great extent? — A. I certainly am aware of the contrary from experience, having sent copper, and lost consi- derably by it. Q. Have you experienced the same loss upon iron and steel and lead, as upon copper ? — A. No ; — I have lost as a Commander upon the aggregate, by the out- ward bound investment. Q, You have mentioned, that in making up a cargo, you would have been under great difficulties, bu*. for permission of the Company ; what are the articles which the East-India Company prevent from being exported by the private traders ? — A. Strictly speak- ing, we have a right to export nothing but wh:U is the growth or manufacture of this Country or Ireland; no foreign commodities : they have allowed us to carry out Brandy, which we could not do as a matter of right ; logs of mahogany which are to be manufac- tured by cabinet-makers, and a few articles besides. Q. You did not mean to say there was any article of British produce you were prevented sending out by their regulations?—^. Certainly not. Q. They have not mahogany or those kinds of P 2 US EVIDENCE ON THE wood in India ? — A. I do not know that they hare; I understand it is a good commodity to send to Bengal for the purpose of being manufactured there, and therefore we are sending it ; whether it will prove so we shall see in the result. WILLTAM FAIRLIE, Esq. was examined. Mr. Adam.~] — Q. Had you an opportunity of knowing, from your situation in Calcutta, the nature of the market for European and British commodities? -~^. I had. Q. State to the Committee whether you think the consumption of European or British commodities in India rests with the English who are settled there in the service of the Company and otherwise, or whether the native Indians are customers to any extent for those commodities ? — A. There is a very small con- sumption for the natives, they are chiefly for the Europeans in the Company's service, in the army and civil service, and others that are settled in the country out of the Company's service. Q. Have you yourself ever endeavoured to in- crease the purchase of British articles by the native Indians? — A. I have endeavoured, but to a small extent. Q. Will you assign the reason why the extent wa* small ? — A. The wants of the natives being so few for European articles ; and the greater part are unable ta purchase them. &, Do you find that in the higher orders, and in the EAST-IKDIA QUESTION. 113 richer classes, there is any considerable tendency of the native Indians, to the purchase of European and British commodities ? — A. There is not. Q. Have you found that the supply of British and European articles, as it is now afforded to Calcutta, has been perfectly sufficient for the demand }<—A. The supply has been fully equal to the demand, and indeed I should think greatly exceeded it, from the loss I have known almost invariably to be sustained by the importation of articles from Europe ; and, for some years past particularly, there has been a loss upon almost every one of the cargoes that were im- ported. Q. Can you state upon an average, for how many years past that loss has taken place ? — A. I should think that for these four or five years past there gene- rally has been a loss. Q. To what do you ascribe the Calcutta market having been so much more glutted, during the last four years, with British commodities ? — A. The very large quantities that have been lying on hand in that market, and the extent of the investments of the Company's officers, and also the importation by India built ships returning from England. Q. Then, according to your judgment, the means at present used for the supply of the Calcutta market with British and European commodities, is complete- ly, and more than completely, adequate to the ends of its consumption ? — A. Certainly. Q. What use do the native Indians make of Eng- 114 EVIDENCE ON THE lish broad cloths or long ells? — A. There is a pretty Janre consumption of the coarser kinds of broad-cloth in the upper part of the country, and a small quan- tity used in Calcutta, by those who can afford to pur- chase it. Q. Has the supply of that article been always equal to the demand ? — A. I should suppose it must, from the cheapness of the article, and from the quantities annually sold by the Company at their sales. Q. Do you think that there is any likelihood of any particular articles of commerce being forced more into the market by opening a free trade? — A. I do not think that they could be forced into it, or that any large importation could be disposed of but to a loss. Q. Do any particular articles seem to you as likely to increase ? — A. There are few or any articles, that I really know of, that the common people would want; a few cloths might perhaps be increased in time, and some few European articles for erecting their houses, window glass, or hinges, but in a very small degree. There was upon the goods we im- ported almost universally a loss. Q. How long has the house ceased to continue those exportations ? — A. Five or six years. . Q. Was the cause of your discontinuing them, that they were disadvantageous speculations ? — A. It was on that account, they were generally attended with loss, perhaps five times out of six, EAST-INJMA QUESTION. tli Q. Can you judge perfectly what will suit the mar- ket ? — A* I should think no articles that would leave a loss would suit the market : some few articles have been imported to a profit, which are eatables and drinkables ; but in general I have understood that the captains and officers of Indiamen have never realized the costs of their investments upon their outward cargoes, for some years past ; they carry out assorted cargoes. Q. Can you give any information respecting the articles that are manufactured for the consumption of the European population there, such as shoes, boots, and sadlery ? — A. Many articles now manufactured supply the place of those formerly imported from this country ; all kinds of leather, carpenters' work of every description, furniture, plate, and a variety of articles in copper and brass ; carriages are made there. Q. Did those articles used to be sent from this- country ? — A. Yes. Q. Are those manufactures in sufficient perfection; to induce the British population there, of the higher order and ranks, to wear and use them r — A. They have their plate, their mahogany furniture, and other articles made there, and by far the greatest part of them use the leather manufactured there for shoes and boots and harness ; buff leather for belts is made there. Q. Are those got so much cheaper there, as to in- duce a preference over those sent from this country? ~~A. Greatly cheaper. 11 6 EVIDENCE 6N Tttfc Q. Have you observed whether the native Indians have come into the habit of using such articles ? — Ai The richer part, some few of them, have carriages for show, to please the Europeans ; and some glass- ware, and chairs and tables. Q. Do you consider, that they are likely to be- come customers for British or European manufac- tures ? — A* It must be very gradual, if they use any European articles; they make every thing within themselves almost that they require, Q, Do the lower classes follow the fashions of their own country, or adopt the fashions of Europe? — -A. They invariably abide by their own customs. Q. Have you seen any tendency whatever, not- withstanding their opportunity of seeing the fashions of Europe, to their following those fashions?— A. None. Q. Have you any expectation of the native Indians becoming customers for British commodities? — A. I do not know of any articles they would want for their use. (Examined by the Committee.) Q. Are there frequent auctions of British article* of all descriptions? — A. Almost daily. Q. In general, are the articles so sold at those auctions, sold with a profit or a loss ? — A. Generally at a very considerable loss, even under the English cost, frequently under the prime cost of the article; that I can speak to from my own knowledge. Q. Are there not many native as well as British EAST-INDIA QUESTION. HJf •merchants who would purchase them, if they could find a vent for them, either among the British or the Europeans? — A. Both Europeans and natives. Q. Very considerable loss has arisen from invest- ments sent to the East-Indies, within the last five or six years ? — A. There has. Q. Can you form any opinion with respect to the inducement that has led persons to continue this un- profitable commerce for five or six years ? — A. Many of them get returns; the officers of Indiamen and captains of Indiamen pay no freight, and they have those advantages that others have not. Q. Have you found that a very general complaint existed in this country, that the quality of cotton brought from India was not suitable for the use of this country ? — A. We have found a complaint against the Indian cotton, for the shortness of its staple, and that it was not suitable to the machinery of this coun- try. Q. Have you had complaints with respect to the cleanness of that cotton ? — A. Yes. Q. Are not the services of the weavers so monopo- lized by the Company's agents, that the private mer- chants have great difficulty in getting goods manu- factured by them ? — A. By no means ; there were plenty of weavers. Q. Is it not usual for the Company to make advances to the weavers? — JL Certainly it is, and for indivi- duals. Q. Do not the private merchants prefer employing 118 EVIDENCE, &C. the Company's servants, when they can do so } — A, They do. Q. Upon what grounds is that preference given?— A. The cloths made up are generally of better quality. Q. Have you not understood that the investments carried out by captains and officers of Indiamen, are often laid in upon long credits, and consequently at a very considerably increased price? — A. The goods bought by the captains and officers, being substantial persons, are bought upon as good terms as any others could purchase. Q. Would not a well-sorted cargo of staple articles, laid in here, at ready-money prices, generally yield a saving remittance, reckoning a rupee at 2*. 6d. ? — A» They are the safest articles, but it depends much upon the rate of freight the owner* of the ship would ex- pect; such as iron, lead and copper, I have imported large quantities, and never obtained any gain upon them, sometimes not even a remittance at 2s. 6d. PUBLICATIONS PRINTED FOR BLACK, PARRY, AND CO. IN RELATION TO The Renewal of the East- India Charter. 1. ANNALS of the Honorable EAST-INDIA COMPANY, from their Establishment by the Charter of Oieen Elizabeth, 1600, to the Union of the London and English East-India Companies, 1/07-8. By JOHN BRUCE, Esq. M.P. and F.R.S. 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Leadenliall Street, 1S13. PEJISON EXAMINED. Page Colonel Thomas Munro. 119 Printed by t.«? ami Bavlis, Great Uucen Street, Liucolu's-Inn-Fields. No. IX. ABSTRACT, 8$C. 8$C. Monday, 1 1th April 1813. Stephen Rumhold Lushington, Esa. in the Chair. Colonel THOMAS MUNRO was examined. [Mr. Tmpey] — Q. By having resided in so many- parts of India, and particularly by a mission into the Nizam's country, had you great opportunity of ob- serving the character and habits of the natives of Hin- dostan ? — A. I had. Q. Were there many Europeans in that part of the country ? — A. There were no Europeans. Q. Is not the Hindoo nation much attached to ita own modes of living and thinking ? — A, They are very much attached. ft* 120 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. Are they not as unchangeable upon these points as any thing human can possibly be ? — A. They are. Q. Do you mean without exception, or with any exceptions, among those who have intercourse with Europeans ? — A. I make no exception. Q. When you went to the ceded districts, were they not in a state of great anarchy and disorder r — A. They were. Q. How long did you reside there ? — A. Seven years. Q. During that time, were not those districts re- duced to a comparative state of order and good go- vernment ? — A. 'I hey were reduced into very good order. Q. Is it not now necessary for the Company to use great caution in selecting those persons who should be sent into those districts, for fear of the natives re- curring to their former state of disorder ? — A. It is necessary, not only for those districts, but all districts. Q. What would be the consequence of permitting English traders of all descriptions to range and to re- side in those districts ? — A. Such a permission would be attended with very dangerous consequences. Q. Would persons just arrived from Europe, and ignorant of the customs of the natives, produce more mischief than persons who were acquainted with their manners and habits ? — A. This is so much the case, that it is always usual when European troops, newly EAST-INDIA aUESTION. 121 arrived, are sent up the country, to send a detachment of native troops along with them, to prevent their getting into disputes with the inhabitants. Those dis- putes happen among all newly arrived Europeans. Q. If newly arrived Europeans were permitted to enter the interior of the country, would they be likely to exercise acts of violence against the natives, and to outrage their religious and civil prejudices and feel- ings ? — A. They would. Q. Would not such conduct be likely to excite dis- turbance among the natives, that might eventually he dangerous to the government? — A. It might occasion disturbances that would eventually be dangerous to the government. It might not occasion insurrec- tion, but would produce that sort of discontent, which -might remain at rest till an Enemy entered the Coun- try, when they would be prepared to favour the view of any Invader. Q. In case of oppression of the natives by Eu- ropeans, at so great adistance as those ceded districts, would it be possible for them to obtain any justice, considering that Madras is the only seat of a court that has criminal jurisdiction over Englishmen ? — A. I think that very few of them ever would obtain redress, because they could not bear the expense. Q. Might not Europeans, entertaining hostile de- signs, penetrate by the ports of Malabar to the Courts of the native Princes ?— A. They might certainly. Q. In the event of a free trade, would there be any considerably increased demand for British commodities 122 EVIDENCE ON frllK or manufactures, among the natives of Hindostan ^— A. I do not think there would : there are very few people there, that purchase any European commo- dities. There are other causes of a more permanent nature than the high price, which preclude the con- sumption of European articles ; the influence of the climate, the religious and civil habits of the natives, and more than any thing else, the excellence of their own manufactures, The whole of a Hindoo's table service, consists of a brass basin and an earthen plate. His house has no furniture ; if he had furniture, he has no place to keep it in, it would be necessary to build a house to hold it. He gets his clothing not only better but cheaper, at home ; it is impossible that we can enter into competition rn the market. Q. State the price of labour ? — A. About 5*. a month ; 5s. I think is an high average ; some of the calculations made it as low as 45., none above 6s. Q. Is the price of labour more than adequate to the subsistence of the labourers and of their families?—- A. Not more than adequate. Q. Is there any probability of a change in the state of society in Hindostan ? — A. I do not think there i*. Q. Is there any probability of extending, to any great amount, the use of the woollen manufactures of Eng- land? — A. I do not think that there is. The natives require warm clothing north and east of Hindostan ; but they have all their own coarse woollens, and, many of the richer sort, use quilted silk and cotton, which is both warm and light. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 123 Q. Do the same causes operate in the. countries to the north and west of Hindostan ? — A. I can only speak from information, and that leads me to sup- pose that there can be no material increase in the use of European manufactures in those countries, be- cause they also have coarse woollen manufactures of their own. Q. State the prices of the common woollen cloths manufactured in India, used bv the natives ? — A. The common woollen, as it comes from the loom, of about six or seven feet long, by four or five broad, generally costs eighteen pence or two shillings. The finer kind, of greater length and breadth, about ten feet long, by six or seven broad, sells for twelve or fifteen shillings the piece. Q. Do the more opulent natives of India, that have much intercourse with Europeans, purchase to any extent European commodities, and for what pur- poses ? — A. The consumption of European commo- dities in India does not depend upon the wealth of the natives: the opulent seem to take no more of them than the poorer sort; it chiefly depends upon tire caprice of the individual. Q. Was Tippoo Sultan in possession of European articles to a considerable amount ?; — A. A largt quan- tity had been sent to him from France ; but he made very little use of them ; they were found in a lum- ber room, many of them not unpacked. Q. J)o you think the market for European com- 124 EVIDENCE ON THE modi tics in India is fully equal to the demand? — - A. The present system of supply is equal, and much more than equal, to any probable increase, likely to take place. Q Are not the Indians themselves ingenious in manufactures, and likely to supply themselves with any demand they may have for them ? — A. They would be likely to imitate any European manufactures for which they had any particular use, and in a very short time carry it to such extent as to answer their own supply, Q. Do the weavers work indifferently for the Com' pany and for other merchants ? — A. There is no dis- tinction whatever ; they work according to the priori- ty of advance. Q. Do the Company's servants ever interfere with the free price of commodities ? — A. Never. Q. Is not India full of merchants and dealers of every class, that are as intelligent and more economi- cal than ours? — A. From the pedlar up to the high- est merchant ; wherever they hear of a demand, they take care to supply it immediately. - Q. Do not you know that the commercial charac- ter of the Company is very high, all over India, both for honour and regularity r — A. Very high all over India : the natives are astonished at the moderation of government, so different from what they have been accustomed to see, under their own native princes. Q. In the event of a free trade, would it be abso- EAST-INDIA ftUESTION. 125 lutely necessary for the peace and security of the natives, and to prevent their oppression, that the power at present possessed by the local governments in India, to remove such persons in case of miscon- duct, should be continued ? — A. Such powers should be continued ; they will hardly be sufficient, under a more open trade and a great influx of Europeans. (Examined by the Committee). Q. Do you not think that the whole population of India under the British sway, is at present submis- sive and apparently co: tented? — A. Both submis- sive and contented, apparently and in reality ; but there are many chiefs and men of rank, who held si- tuations under the old government, who cannot be expected to remain contented under any European go- vernment, by which they are themselves excluded from ail high situations. Q. Do not you of course conclude that Mahome* dans, who have been deprived of those lucrative situa- tions, and situations of power, would put down the British power if they could ? — A. No doubt ; and the Hindoos, if they were able, would put down both. Q. As long as the Hindoos are well treated by the British power, would the discontented part of the Mahomedans be able to effect any of their purposes ? — A. Certainly not, while the Hindoo population is satisfied. Q. Are there coachmakers, carpenters, cabinet- makers, upholsterers, worker* in different metals, s 126 EVIDENCE ON THE workers in all kinds of tanned leather, tailors, -and shoemakers ? — A. All such artisans and manufac- turers ; and they will in time supply the European establishment in India with all those articles which are now sent from Europe. I have see© shoes, from a shilling a pair to eight shillings, made of country tanned leather. Q. Are not the woollen cloths made in India, pe- culiarly adapted to the climate r — A. I conceive bet- ter adapted than what we make here. Q. Is there not a considerable growth of cotton wool in different parts of India ? — A. The growth is very general. Q. iViay not such growth be greatly increased, un- der proper encouragement ? — A, No doubt. Q. Might not the quality be improved, if proper encouragement were given to it ? — A. No doubt. Q. Could not, under such encouragement, a sup- ply to any extent be obtained ? — A. To any extent. Q. Do you think that an open trade, under the present restrictions in regard to residence, would be followed by any consequences likely to disturb the government and tranquillity of that country ? — A. It might occasionally produce disputes ; but the Euro- pean authorities, already established there, would be quite sufficient to controul them. Q. Do you conceive that the number of Europeans would be greatly augmented by the establishment of an open trade ? — A. At the first opening of the trade, the number of Europeans would be very considerably EAST-INDIA ftUESTION. 127 augmented ; by degrees, that number would limit it- self to the demand of the trade. No person could remain in India, unless employed either in trade themselves or as agents for commercial houses ; they could not possibly subsist by manufacturing, on ac- count of the superior skill of the natives. Q. If the colonization of India were desirable, is it not practicable ? — A. I hardly imagine that they could colonize to any extent ; they would be borne down by the superior population of the natives, more industrious and more economical. Q. Can you form an opinion whether the use of British manufactures might, in the event of a free trade and a considerable reduction in the price, be- come more generally extensive among the natives?— A. I have very little hope of any material increase be- ing produced, even if the price is reduced ; because I do not apprehend that there is likely to be such a re- duction, as can bring our manufactures into competi- tion witb those of the natives. Whenever we can un- dersell the Hindoos in any article which they require, it will find its way into the interior of the country, without much help from the British merchants : it will find its way to the interior in spite of all regula- tions to prevent it. Q. In the event of an open trade, do you think that in seasons of scarcity at home, Urge supplies of rice might be procured advantageously from india I — A. Very large supplies. Q. When you speak of an open trade do you S 2 128 EVIDENCE ON THE speak of a trade limited to the three principal settle- ments, Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay? — A.Ye$. Q. When you speak of such regulations as might "be suggested for carrying on a free trade, without any danger to our possessions in India, what sort of re- gulations have you in contemplation ? — A. Those that now exist in Indja, no person being enabled to reside in India without the license of government, or to re- main there after it may become necessary to remove him. Masters of vessels going out to India should be obliged to account for all their passengers and crew, and to bring back all, who were not permitted by licence to remain in the country. Q. Unless a free trade was confined to the three principal settlements, and subject to such regulations as vou have now referred to, danger might arise to our possessions in India )—A. The consequences would be very dangerous to the security of our possessions in India. Q. Unless a power be vested in the government in India, at its own good pleasure, to send home any per- son whom it thought dangerous, would inconvenience arise? — A. The government could not maintain its authority without such power. Q. If the legislature should pass a law, declaring that every person in these United Kingdoms, should have a right to go to India, to what parts of the coast he pleased, would danger arise to our possessions in India? — A. V T ery great danger to the security of our possessions in that country. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 129 Q. If the legislature, . by law, should enable all British subjects to go to India, and to trade to any part of India they pleased, could the regulations now existing be practically enforced by the East-India Com- pany ? — A. If the legislature of this country authorizes persons to go there, without being subjected to the existing regulations, it would be impossible to enforce them against them. A. Do you think that an open trade from every port of the United Kingdom to every port in India, could be efficiently conducted, unless the proprietor and the merchant, or his agent, were at liberty to so- journ in the ports or places to which his merchandize should be carried or consigned ? — A. Certainly not. Q. Do you think that unless the present regula- tions, and perhaps still stronger, were enforced, in regard to all those agents or persons who might settle in those different places, material injury might be done to the British Empire in India? — A. Certainly. Q. In carrying on an open trade, would it be necessary for those merchants to have agents in the interior ? — A. I am clearly of opinion that it would. Q. If ships of three hundred tons, belonging to open traders, should be allowed to go armed to India, and should fail in their commercial speculations, would there not be a danger of their passing the Straits of Malacca, and committing outrages on the Chinese junks, and thus exposing this country to a dispute with China ? — A. We have instances of 130 EVIDENCE, &C. vessels, without passing the Straits of Malacca, be- coming pirates. Q. Supposing the adventurers to fail in their trade, and Government not having the power to send them home, would they not be likely to go into the service of the native princes ? — A. Very likely. Q. Could any supply, both of cotton and rice, be brought to England, without an introduction of the proposed system of a free trade ? — A. An increase of those articles might be brought to this country, with- out the introduction of the proposed free trade. No. X. ■ i i ■ ■ ■■ m ABSTRACT, 8$c. 8$c. Tuesday, 13 th April 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. Resolved, to move the House, That, in order to facilitate the progress of this Committee, a Select Committee be appointed to examine Witnesses, and to report the Minutes of such Examination, from time to time, to the House, Colonel THOMAS MUNRO was again examined. Q. You conceive licences would be necessary to persons going to the presidencies for the purpose of trade ; does the licence you suppose necessary refer to a person going for the purpose of trade, or with a view to residence ? is any licence necessary for a person returning by the same ship ? — A. If a person is going to reside, I should thing that the licence would be 132 EVIDENCE ON THE absolutely necessary ; if he is going to trade, there will be a licence with the ship. Q. In the event of an open trade, a merchant in this country fitting out a vessel to South America, and afterwards proceeding to India, do you imagine that a licence for that vessel, previously to her pro- ceeding from this country, is necessary? — A. All vessels going to India should be furnished with li- cences ; but proceeding by America, there might be cases in which such a licence might be dispensed with. Q. Do yon conceive any difference would exist in India, whether those licences of which you speak were granted by the East-India Company, or under the direction of the Board of Controul ? — A. While the government of India remains in the hands of the Company, all licences should pass through the Di- rectors. Q. Are you of opinion that the best of means have been already used for discovering what articles, suita- ble for British manufacture and consumption, are either produced or are produceable in the Company's territories? — A. Orders have at different times been sent by the Government of India, to encourage the growth of Cotton. Q, If easier access to India were allowed to persons bred to the cotton trade, would such persons soon discover the situations most favourable for the growth of each sort of cotton, and the best means of culti- EAST-INDIA ftUESTIOX. 133 vatincr them? — A. No doubt, if persons were admitted into the interior. Q.. Would not an open trade give additional fa- cilities and encouragement to accomplish those ob- jects f — A. Those facilities might be given, as the trade now stands, under proper licences. Q. Have such facilities actually been given ? — A. There are settlers to whom such licences have been given. Q. Do not the natives clean and prepare cotton for their own spinning, by hand labour ? — A. They clean it both by hand labour and by a machine. Q. Can a similar operation be performed at an equally small expence in any other part of the world ? — A. Certainly not, where labour is not so cheap. Q. Has not cotton been cultivated in India more with a view to the trade with China, than that with Great Britain ? — A. Chiefly for the consumption of the country, and for the investment of cloth. Q. Are not the goods of the interior brought in great abundance to the principal sea-ports by the na- tives, cheaper than if this were done by European agency r> — A. They arc. Q. When the European merchants requireparticular articles from the interior, do they not find it more for their advantage to employ natives, than to proceed into the interior themselves ? — //. They always em- ploy natives. Q. Is it not likely that the trade, if now opened, might oe carried on without any irreat resort of Euro- 134 EVIDENCE ON THE peans into the interior? — A. If the trade were so. opened, the resort of Europeans to the interior for some time would be considerable. Q. You have stated, that Europeans going into the interior, might commit excesses and violence, involv- ing them in unpleasant disputes with the natives^ do you think that private traders, men-of sedate habits and pursuits, would be likely to conduct themselves thus irregularly ? — A. Private traders going into the interior, whatever their habits might be, would be likely to commit those excesses. Q. Have you known of any instances ? — A. I have heard of many instances. I find no difference in traders ; whether their habits are quiet or not when they quit this country, they are very seldom quiet when they find themselves among an unresisting people, over whom they can exercise their autho- rity. Q. By the existing regulations in India, can any European trader remain there, without the permis- sion of government ? — A. He cannot. Q. Can he go into the interior to any greater dis- tance than ten miles, without the permission of go- vernment?^ — A. No. Q. Do not our treaties with the native princes pro- hibit their entertaining Europeans and Americans in their service, without the permission of government ? — A. They do ; but there are many feudatories who would entertain Europeans without any reserve, and without any controul. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 135 Q. To what states do you allude ? — A. There are above a hundred zemindars and polygars, and petty- rajahs, who would give refuge to all persons, and to all rebels. Q. Would it be possible, for the principal native princes of Iudia, or their feudatories, to entertain Eu- ropeans or Americans in their service, without the knowledge of our political residents at the native courts of those prince. ? — A. They might. Q. Does any thing but the poverty of the people induce them to give a preference to their own Corne- lias * over broadcloth ? — A. They are better adapted to the purpose for which they require them, than, broadcloth. Q. Did you ever see the richer natives of India dress in broadcloth, during the cold and rainy sea- sons? — A. Never. Q. Are not great quantities of iron, steel, copper, lead, and tin, now in common use among the natives ? A' Iron and copper are ; but not much lead or tin. Q. Do not the natives sometimes use tin in tinning* their copper pots, as well as for other purposes ?— A. I believe so. Q. Would not the greater wealth of those natives occasion a greater demand for those articles? — A. It would occasion some increase. Q. Would not the demand for iron increase ? — A% No considerable increase ; they have abundance, andvery cheap. * A woollen cloth like camblet* 136 EVIDENCE ON THE Q. Are you acquainted with the quantity of iron imported annually into India r — A. I am not. Q. Do not the richer natives of India admire and buy our cut glass ware ; and are not their houses com- monly furnished with chandeliers, lamps, mirrors, &.c? — A. I have scarcely ever seen five men' in India whose houses had either a chandelier or other glass ware in them. Q. Do you allude to the interior, or to the richer commercial seaports ? — A. To all towns, except a very few houses, so furnished, to please their European guests. Q. Do not the richer natives at the different pre- sidencies commonly drive European carriages ? — A.' Some of them. Q. Have you ever heard that there is not a native of eminence in Bombay, whether Parsee, Mahomedan, or Hindoo, that has not a house superbly furnished, with European furniture ? — A. No. Q, Are not the finer, and some of the more ele- gant manufactures of Britain, in demand among the richer natives ; elegant guns, for example, pis- tols, watches, and articles of that description ? — A. Among a very few of the richer natives, such articles as pistols and guns are sometimes in demand, but very seldom ; 1 believe they rather expect them as presents, than as articles to be purchased. Q. Are not the natives to whom they are presentcd 4 much pleased with them as presents ? — A. I believe so. EAST-INDIA QUESTION. 137 Q. Do not the native princes, and the richer inha- bitants of the interior, often send large commissions to the different presidencies, for the purchase of the rare and finer articles of British manufacture: — A. They may do so occasionally. Q Have you ever seen the richer natives of India dressed in Irish linen, or Scotch and Manchester cam- brics? — A. Never. Q. Did you ever hear that they can be sold cheaper in India than the Madras long-cloths?—^ Never. Even if they were sold cheaper, they would not be preferred to them, because the Madras long-cloths are much pieasanter to the wear, more durable, and wash better. Q. Did you ever see the printed cottons of this country used by the natives as articles of dress, and in furniture? — A, Very seldom, except among natives attached to Europeans on the coast, Q. Are you of opinion that if the cotton goods of this country, suited to the tastes of the natives, were to undersell the manufactures of the country, there is any religious or other prejudice, that would induce the natives, of whatever cast, pertinaciously to reject the cheaper commodity ? — A. Provided they were suited to their taste, and were cheaper than their own, there is no prejudice that would prevent them from purchasing. Q, Have you ever seen Norwich shawls in use among the natives ? — A. Never. Q, H[ave your ever heard the commercial diameter 13S EVIDENCE, &C and proceedings of the Company talked of by na- tives, who either dared or had confidence enough in you to speak on the subject, in terms of complaint or disrespect ?-— A. I never heard the commercial cha- racter of the Company talked of by any natives ex* cept with respect. PUBLICATIONS PRINTED FOR BLACK, PARRY, AND CO. IN RELATION TO Tke Renewal of the East- India Charter. 1. ANNALS of the Honorable EAST-INDIA COMPANY, fro« their Establishment by the Charter of Q iceo Elizabeth, 1000, to the JJuion of the London and English East-India Companies, 2707-8. By JOHN BRUCE, Esq. MP. and F.R.S. Keeper of His Majesty's State Paj>ers, and Historiographer to the Ho- norable East-India Company. 3 Vols. 4to. j£4. 10s. or on royal 4to. j£6. 2. REPORT on the NEGOCIA1 ION between the Honorable EAST- INDIA COMPANY and the PUBLIC, respecting the Renewal of the Company's exclusive Privileges of Trade for Twenty Years, from March 179*- By John Bruce. Esq. M.P. F.R.S. Historiographer to the Hon. East-India Company. Printed by Authority of the Hon. Court of Up rectors, 4to. price 15s. boards. 3. THE EXPEDIENCY MAINTAINED of Continuing the Sys- tem by which the Trade and Government of India are now regalated. By ROBERT GRANT, Esq. Royal 8vo. price 12s. boards. 4. EAST-INDIA STATUTES.— A Collection of Statutes relating to the East-India Company ; with an Appendix, containing Acts, and Parts of Acts, relating to Shipping, Dalies, Regulations for Export and Import, &c. &c. which in general do not solely relate to the East-lno'i* Company ; together with a copious Index of the Whole. 4to. £4. 6*s. calf, lettered. 5. PAPERS respecting the NEGOCIATION for a Renewal of the East India Company's exclusive Privileges. 8vo. Price 3s. 6d. 6. FURTHER PAPERS respecting the NEGOCIATION for a Re- newal of the EAST-INDI A COMPANY'S exclusive Privileges. Price Is. 7. CORRESPONDENCE and PROCEEDINGS in the NEGO- CIATION for a Renewal of the East India Company's Charter. 8vo. Price Is. 6d. 8. The FIFTH REPORT from the Select Committee of the Hous« of Commons on the AFFAIRS of the EAST-INDI A COMPANY ; as ordered by the House of Commons to be printed, 28th July, 1822. 8vo. Price 12s. boards. 9. The PRELIMINARY DEBATESat the EAST-INDIA HOUSE, on Tuesday, the 5th January, 1813, on the Negociation with His Majesty's Ministers relative to a RENEWAL of the CHARTER ; with Pul locations respecting the East-India Charier. ■n Appendix containing all the Letters and Documen is referred to upon the Subject. Bv an Impartial Observer. Price 2s. 10. THE ADJOURNED DEBATES at the EAST-INDIA HOUSE, on Tuesday the lyh, Friday the 2$d, ar.d Tuesday the Cf.'nh January ] 8 J 3, On tlie Negociation with his Majesty's Ministers relative to a Renewal of the Charter ; with an Appendix. By an Impartial Reporter 5s. 1 1. THE LAST DEBA I'Eon a Petition to Parliament for a Renewal of the Company's Charier as far as it regards their exclusive Privileges. By the Editor of the former Debates. With an Appendix containing a Copy of the Petition and the Report of a Committee of Secret Corres- pondence detailing Observations and Opinions on the Arguments urged in the several Petitions from the Outports, &c. &c. Price 3s. 12. A DEBATE at the GENERAL COURT of PROPRIETORS of Eist India Stock, on Wednesday the 24th March, 1813, for taking into Consideration the PROPOSITIONS submitted by Lord Castlereagh to the Hon. House of Commons. By the Editor of the former Debates :— with an Appendix. Price 3S. 13. HINTS and OBSERVATIONS respecting the NEGOCIATION for a RENEWAL oF the E\ST INDIA COMPANY'S EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGES, snbmitted 4th March, 1812, to the Consideration of tire Right Hon. Lord Melville, by the Deputation of the Court of Directors, with his Lordship's Remarks on them, March 1812. Price Is. 14. LETTERS from the RIGHT HON. BSNfiY DUNDAS on sn OPEN TRADE TO INDIA. Price is. 15. SUBSTANCE of the SPEECH of tl.e RIGHT HON. HENRY DUNDAS in the House of Commons, on the British Government and Trade in the East-Indies. Price Is. 16., A SHORT CONVERSATION on the present Crisis of the Im- portant Trade to the EAST-INDIES. Price Is. 17- A PLAN for INCREASING the EXPORTS of BRITISH MANUFACTURES to INDIA. Illustrated by a seiics of colourid Engravings. 1813. ^ 18. FOUR LETTERS respecting the CLAIMS of the EAST-INDIA COMPANY for a Renewal of their Exclusive Privileges. Price is. 1Q. "LETTERS of CIVIS on the East-India Question. 8vo. Price 2s. 20. TheEO-NAUTS, or the SPIRIT OF DELUSION, a sciio, Comico, logical, eulogical, lyrical", satirical, Poem, with Notes, ^'gra- phical and Critical, of various Commentators Edited by LEMUEL GULLIVER, Esq., and defeated to the Mayor of Bristol. Evo. Price 3s. SI. ABSTRACT of the MINUTES of EVIDENCE taken in the Hon. House of Commons, before a Committee of the whole House t;» consider the Affairs of the East-Iudia Company. By the Editor of the East-India Debates. 1813. UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LIBRARY Los Angeles This book is DUE on the last date stamped below. «ftw WC'O URL-lI) 41*5 MAY 26"! JAN 29 1969 Form L9-Series 444 -iHruo-W 4^ MAR 22\99» MAR 1 4 1994 ,C SOUTHERN «EqWUIB?AJV Fgm IT 000106 675 8