UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TUB MIGHT HONOURABLE THE HOUSE OF JLORBS, ^9 IN THE LORDS COMMITTEES, APPOINTED TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION SO MUCH OF THE SPEECH OF HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE PRINCE REGENT AS RELATES TO THE CHARTER OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY, AND TO THE Providing effectually for the future Government of the Provinces of India; and to report to the House ; and to whom were referred the Petition of the United Company of Merchants of England trading to the East-Indies, respecting their Charter ; and also the several Petitions presented against and in favour of the Renewal of the said Charter. LONDON : PRINTED BY ORDER OF THE COURT OF DIRECTORS FOR THE INFORMATION OF THE PROPRIETORS, By E. Cox and Son, Great Queen Street, Lincoln's-Inn-Fields. 1813a UJ AT A COURT OF DIRECTORS, HELD ON O CD Friday, the 2\st May, 1813. Resolved — That the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Eight Honourable the House of Lords, in the Lords Committees appointed to take into consideration so much of the Speech of His Royal Highness the Prince Regent as relates to the Charter of the East-India Company, and to the providing effectually for the future Government of the Provinces of India, be printed for the information of the Proprietors. 'TO — 1 LIST OF EVIDENCE. Page Warren Hastings, Esq 2 William Cowper, Esq u Lieutenant-Colotx I Sir John Malcolm ^ Right Honourable Lord Teignmouth 31 Major-General Alexander Kyd 42 Thomas Graham, Esq * Lieutenant- Colonel Munro William toung, Esq 83 v John S racey, Esq 86 Guy Lenox Prendergastj Esq 89 David Hahburton, Esq 9S > Graeme Mercer, Esq. Thomas CoeUburn, Esq « 1C5 ' Thomas Sydenham, Esq 122 Robert Monis, Esq 125 ' James Horsburgb, Esq 130 Charles fuller, Esq. M. P >34 Honourable Hugh Lindsay ,36 « Stephen Ivmibold Lushington, Esq. M. P 14 ° 1 David Vanderheyden, Esq. M. P ' i9 ■ WUliatn Favrlie, Esq l52 Lestoek Wilson, Esq ■• •• '° 2 « Iy6 I William Davies, Esq 167 John Woohnore, Esq 17 ° LIST OF EVIDENCE. Page William Brrfce Smith, Esq H5 Sir Charles Wajre Malet, Bart •» •• -.177 Ewan Law, Esq 188 Stanley Clarke, Esq 189 Martin Lindsay, Esq. .. ■•■ 193 Sir George Tuomas Staunton, Bart 199 Daniel Beale, Esq 209 Charles Ca'r'twright, Esq 217 Robert Brown, Esq .. 221 James Cazenove, Esq 225 William Roe, Esq 228 Glocester Wilson, Esq. 239 Robert Nicholas, Esq 243 John Vivian, Esq. 250 *#* In referring to the Numbers of the Minutes of Evidence printed by Order of the Right Honourable the House of Lords, from which the following are reprinted, it icill be necessary to notice that No. 1 , being the Minutes taken on 5th April, 1313, is contained in pages 1 to 31 2, 6th 31— 68 3, 7th 69 — ! 04 4, 8th 105—139 5, 12th 140—177 6, 13th 177 — 216 "7, 14th , 217—254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE LORDS COMMITTEES Appointed to take into Consideration so much of the Speech of His Royal Highness the Prince Regent as relates to the Charter of the EAST INDIA COMPANY, and to the providing effectually for the future Government of the Pro- vinces of India ; and to report to the House ; and to whom were referred the Petition of the United Company of Mer- chants of England trading to the East Indies, respecting their Charter ; and also the several Petitions presented against and in favour of the Renewal of the said Charter. Die Lunce, 5° Aprilis 1813. The Earl of Buckinghamshire in the Chair. Order of reference read. Order read, for adding a]] the Lords who have been or shall be present this Session to thrs Committee. Orders read, referring to this Committee the petition of the United Company of Merchants of England trading to the East-Indies, touching their Charter, and praying to be heard by counsel, and to adduce proofs respecting the matters in the petition mentioned ; and also, the several petitions presented against and in favour of the renewal of the said Charter, with liberty for such of the said petitioners as have severally prayed to be heard by their counsel in support of their said petitions, to be heard by counsel upon the same. B The MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE The counsel are ordered to be called in ; and Mr. Adam, Mr. Randle Jackson, Mr. impcy, and Mr. Grant, appearing as counsel on behalf of the East-India Company, the Petition of the East-India Company is read ; and Mr. Impey is heard to open the allegations of the said petition. Then WARREN HASTINGS, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : Warren Hast- {By Counsel.) — Are you enabled from your long residence in India, and wgs, E ■(]. your experience and observation of the manners, habits, and dispositions ^— — -y 1 of the natives of that country, to give the Committee any general descrip- tion of their national character as contrasted with that of the English I — In answering to this question, it will not be easy to divest my min-J of certain circumstances connected with it, which do not relevantly appertain to the question itself Great pains have been taken to inculcate into the public mind an opinion that the native Indians are in a state of complete moral turpitude, and live in the constant and unrestrained commission of every vice and crime that can disgrace human nature. I affirm, by the oath that I have taken, that this description of them is untrue, and wholly unfounded. What I have to add must be taken as my belief, but a belief impressed by a longer and more intimate acquaintance with the people than has fallen to the lot of many ot my countrymen. In speaking of the people, it is necessary to distinguish the Hindoos,- who form the great portion of the population, from the Mahometans, who are intermixed with them, but generally live in separate communities ; the former are gentle, benevolent, more susceptible of gratitude for kindness shewn them, than prompted to vengeance for wrongs inflicted, ami as exempt from the worst propensities of human passion as any people upon the face of the earth ; they are faithful and affectionate in service, and submissive to legal authority ; they are superstition;, it is true, but they do not think ill of us for not thinking as they do. ■ Gross as the modes of their worship are, the preceptsof their religion are wonderfully fitted to promote the best ends of society, its peace and good order ; and even from their theology, arguments may be drawn to illustrate and support the most refined mysteries of our own. The intolerant and persecuting spirit of Mahp- mctanism has spared them through a course of three centuries, and even bound them into union with its own professors, without any ill conse- quences that I have ever heard resulting from it. I verily believe that both classes would unite in resisting any attempts, should any be made, to subvert the religion of either. I have endeavoured, and 1 hope success- fully, to guard my mind against any undue partiality which might arise in it *~V" EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 3 it from the remembrance of the testimonials which were transmitted from Wan-en Hast- both classes of the people in my favour, and certainly in your Lordship's i»gs, Esq. recollection ; but I may, appearing as I do as a sworn witness, appeal for ( the confirmation of the truth of the evidence which I have delivered to the fact, the first perhaps in the history of the world, of a whole people offering themselves in a direct and almost personal avowal to their new and actual ruler, the voluntary advocates of a former governor, then lying and! known by (hem to lie under a criminal prosecution before the sovereign tribunal of the parent state. This effort of theirs, how unworthy soever of it 1 may have been, affords as strong a proof as can be afforded, or con- ceived, that they themselves possess in a very high degree the principles of gratitude, affection, honour, and justice. My Lords, I cannot re- member all that I wished to say upon this subject. I have omitted to speak of their faults ; faults they certainly have, they are the lot of humanity ; theirs are such only as can be supposed to subsist in the presence of so manv opposite qualities, but among these I have omitted to mention one, which is not a general, but an universal trait of their character ; their temperance is demonstrated in the simplicity of their food, and their total abstinence from spirituous liquors and other substances of intoxication. J think the question required that I should speak to the character of mv own countrymen, as compared, or contrasted with them ; these, my Lords, are almost in every instance the reverse of the other. It is impossible that the English character should coalesce with the natives in the same state of society. In the higher class of British subjects this effect may net be deduced ; but if Europeans are admitted generally to go into the country to mix with the inhabitants, and to form establishments amongst them, the consequence must certainly and inevitably prove the ruin of the country ; they will insult, plunder, and oppress the natives because they can do it with impunity ; no laws that can be enacted from hence can at such a distance, and under the cover of so many circumstances as will oj- cur in that country, prevent them from committing acts of- licentiousness of every kind with impunity ; the arrogance and boldness of their spirit will encourage them too tar to do ever) thing that their own interests may prompt them to. In India, at a distance from the capital settlements, the name of an Englishman is his protection, and a sanction for many offences which he would not dare to commit at home. I must add what I have alreadv mentioned in another place, and which perhaps may not appear to deserve the weight which I feel it possesses in my own mind ; there is a tacit idea prevails universally in the minds of all British subjects, not only in India, but 1 believe with a feebler or deeper impression even at home, the idea of common participation which every British subject possesses in the sovereignty of the Company:—" Since rrebecame masters of the country:" B 2 " our 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren HasA- " our native subjects," and other phrases of a similar import constantly .. Esq. occur b out books, in our writings, as well as in the language of familiar i— — -, ' cor,vcr:.tio;i. These klcas in the lower orders of British subjects rise to the height of despotism, and arc liable to all the excesses of despotism, whenever the prerogatives annexed to it can be asserted with impunity; vt Ufa such a disparity, the aggrieved Indian loses his confidence ; he is timid by mature, and not easily provoked to resistance where danger may be ap- prelHndc:!;bi;t though this is a part of their individual characterises may be supposed in which the provocation of a general grievance may excite the whole people, or detached numbers of them, to all the ferocities of insurrection ; this however is not very liable to happen, and I hope never will. Very great and almost insuperable will be the difficulties, of obtain- ing redress should the native Indian be under a necessity of appealing fur it to the courts of justice established in the country ; these will always be at a great distance from the complainant, because he cannot afford the loss of a day's labour, which procures him his daily subsistence, in appealing to them. The same difficulties will occur in collecting witnesses, and procuring their attendance ; and these combined will be more likely to prevent his complaining at all, than a too quick sense of injury to give occasion tor his complaining without sufficient reason. I had much more to say upon this subject, but I should depart I believe from the general tenor of the question, and I should suppose that I shall be led to it u\ my subsequent examination. During the time that you were in India was it found necessary to lay a very strict restraint upon the intercourse of the natives of this country w'ith those of India, to prevent the oppression of the natives on their part ? — A restraint was laid upon them, but I do not think so strict as ought to have been done ; nor had the causes for it existed in the same degree that I believe have happened since, and of which there were strong symptoms at that time. If a free trade were authorised by law between this country and B.itish India, and Englishmen were allowed to fix their residence in any part of on Indian- possessions according to their pleasure, and without restraint, is it your opinion that any ill consequences from such permission would ensue to the tranquillity and happiness of the natives of India under the go- vernment of the Company?— I answer confidently, that it would prove ruinous to the country, and very injurious to the peace of the inhabitants. Are you of opinion that ill consequences would follow from such per- mission to the stability of the British Empire in India ?— I am indeed. if EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 5 If the free traders were only permitted to res rt to the ports in India *Varnn llast- without penetrating into the country, do >ou think any such consequences in o s > Esq. to a considerable degree would follow, either to the peace of the natives, « ' or the stability of the British Government in India? — To the two last questions 1 have answered directly, without assigning any reason. I reply in the same affirmative to this; but I must add, that this was not always my opinion; I did think, that if the residence of free traders were con- fined to the principal settlements or to certain boundaries around them, restrictions might be devised to prevent any ill consequences from arising from them, but this opinion was formed on the conception, that the au- thority of the Company underwent no change, and that all British subjects were virtually as well as legally amenable to it; but if a law were to be enacted in opposition to the sense and remonstrance ot the East-India Company, permitting all British subjects indiscriminately to go to India, to carry on a trade there, though confined legally to the principal settle- ments, still I think the same consequences would follow ; by agencies, by permission, by connivance, by some way or other, they would find their way into the country, because the permission granted to them was not a permission of the ruling power ot the Company as formerly, but of a superior authority ; it would render them in a degree independent, and encourage them to a resistance of the law, and to every means in their power of evading it, and many means they would possess. The Company might be allowed, I believe they are by the tenor of their present Charter, the power of sending to England persons who misbehave ; but many ways- might be contrived by such persons to elude the authority of the Company in this instance, by making themselves suitors or defendants, or procuring means to be summoned as witnesses, or other contrivances that should put them under the protection and authority of the Supreme Court. According to the terms of the present question it does not appear that there shall be any exception ; but if licences are to be granted by the present Charter, there is no power in the Company or the Government to recall those licences, and they may appeal to them against the authority of the Go- vernment. I mean by all I have said, to impress upon your Lordsh'ps a. distinction which prevails in my mind between a liberty allowed to indi- viduals by the actual authority of the Government there, and a licence granted from a superior authority; the first may be revoked, and the Go- vernment will hold a perpetual controul over them, which they will not possess in the other case. My Lords, I am a very old servant of the Com- pany, and may naturally be supposed to have my mind biassed by that circumstance; but I possess as strong a proof as I believe it is possible to give of the truth of the opinion which I have delivered twenty years ago : the same opinion was delivered in an address to the Chairman or Chairmen of. --v- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren Hast- of the Court of Directors; at the time when the present Charted vras ///"«,-, Esq. under deliberation, in which I attempted to impress upon the minds ot the ■ Court of Directors, for whose perusal it was ultimately intended, the necessity of guarding their interests against the practice, winch was then beginning to prevail, of Europeans, licensed or unlicensed, forming establishments in the country belonging to the Company's dominion, and urging, as I recollect, the propriety and necessity of providing against such mischiefs, as I apprehended would result from them, in the Charter then under consideration. I have no copy of the letter, and can onlv advert with certainty to the identity of it, and to its general substance. I have reason in my recollection to believe that it was approved by the Court of Directors; that it was shewn to and approved by the gentleman who then presided over the Board of Commissioners appointed for the affairs of India; and I have a pleasure in believing, and almost knowing, that he approved it. A clause was inserted in the Act of Parliament, and in the Charter constituted under the sanction of it, bv which it was enacted, that no British subjects, not being in the service of the Company, should be allowed to reside in India for the purpose of carrying on their trade there, but within the precincts of their principal settlements, except such persons as had obtained licences from the East-India Company, or from the go- vernor-general or governor; this exception appeared to me to defeat every purpose ot the prohibitory clause, since the persons so patronized would go out armed with powers that no others possessed, and which none would dare to resist, under the idea that in opposing them they opposed the will of their patrons, and that the persons so favoured would be capable of doing more mischief in the country than if all Englishmen were indis- criminately let loose upon it. I had done all that was within my slender means to prevent the evil ; I waited till another occasion occurred to bring it again before the notice of the Court of Directors, as an incidental sub- ject of another letter ; this letter was dated the 12th March 1502. On the 28th of February 1812, I again indirectly addressed the Court of Directors by the like official channel of the present Chairman, in which I reiterated the subject, remonstrating particularly against the exception made from the general prohibition, and accompanied my remonstrance with a series ot restrictions which I thought might prevent the occurrence of the same evils ; those restrictions I have alluded to in a former part of my evidence, but repeat that I think neither they, nor any that might be added to them, would now be of any avail. I have humblv mentioned this circumstance, as a proof that this is no novel opinion of mine, nor assumed for the present occasion, but an opinion delivered through a series or attempts in the course of twenty years, in which I have uniformly held it. 'I he evils which I portended from the licentious intercourse of British. subjects EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7 subjects in India, were then mentioned by me as deductions in argument. ]]' a rrcn Hast- Your Lordships will have opportunities of knowing from more recent in*$i Esq. evidence than mine, whether the evils which I had thus portended have i ^ j actually come to pass or not ; and the records of the Company will prove or disprove the same. If it shall appear from those evidences that such consequences have happened, what I had before declared can no longer be considered as argumentative, but as predictive, and will afford an ir- refragable proof that such effects must follow from such premises. Are you then of opinion, that in the event of a free trade, if laws or regulations were made in this country to confine the residence of the free traders or their agents to our principal settlements, it would be extremely difficult practically to enforce such regulations, if not impossible? — I think difficult, and I believe impossible ; my reasons will appear, I believe, in the answer which I gave to the former question. If there were any considerable increase in the intercourse of English- men with the natives of India, are you ot opinion that it would have art ill effect upon the opinions of the natives of India relative to the character of Englishmen? — Most undoubtedly they would naturallydrawtheiropinion of the character of the country from the conduct ot those with whom they were immediately conversant, and every act of injustice, for which they could receive no redress, would dwell upon their minds, with a strong prejudice against the government itself, supposing it to permit them. Are you of opinion that such an idea so generated in the minds of the natives might eventually be prejudicial to the stability ot the British Go- vernment in India? — A strong armed force may be sufficient to suppress, and keep down any spirit or revolt arising in the minds of the people. AVe must always keep up a strong standing force in that country; but so much depends for the peace of the country and the stability ot the Go- vernment upon the attachment of the people, that it would be very unsafe and impolitic to trust to that security only. Our Government is not to expect that it shall always remain in a state of peace with its neighbours ; I am not sure that we should wish to remain so : but in a general disaffec- tion of the people, a state of external warfare would be liable to internal danger ; in short, I do not believe that any nation upon earth is safe from the v/orst effects which may follow from a general discontent of its people In the event of a free trade, if any acts of violence were committed against the persons or families of the natives, either by the free traders, their agents, or their ships' crews, at any great distance from the presi- dencies. 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren Hast- dencics, does it not appear to you extremely difficult, if not impossible, itigf, Esq. tor the natives to obtain justice against those violences ? — I believe I have 1 i ' said so ; if I did, I repeat it. Arc you of opinion that in the event of a free trade between this country and British India, the demand for British manufactures would be increased in any material degree rn that country ? — I believe not, I do not know why it should ; it may cause a greater influx of British goods into that country, but it cannot increase the wants of the people to pos- sess them. Are the mass of the population in that country in any condition, if they wished it, to purchase British manufactures ? — British manufactures, like all othe? articles of commerce, must be such, as will minister either to the wants or to the luxuries of the people : — I must confine my obser- vations to the countries that are immediately under the dominion of the Companv, and which I best know. The poor of India, who are the people, have no wants ; unless the scanty rags of cloth which they wear, their huts, and simple food, may be considered as such, and those they have upon the ground which they tread upon. The next class above the poor, are the wealthy Hindoos, occupying the rank of zemindars, and the officers of the collections : those men are as simple in their habits almost as the poor ; they want nothing that our ships can furnish them. That class of the inhabitants who formerly might have been the purcha- sers of European merchandize, such as articles of show, furniture, and dress, have now scarcely any existence, I mean the Mahometans ; few now remain besides the pensioners that were left upon the bounty of the government ; few of whom I should suppose now survive. What articles of ours could find their way to the courts that are independent of our authority, I know not ; the knowledge of those will depend upon more recent information than mine. AVhen you were in India, did the more opulent people in that country seem to acquire any taste for European habits, or manufactures, by inter- course with Europeans? — Certainly, some did: this effect too, I must confine to the Mussulmen, and chiefly to the Mussulmen at the courts of the diilerent princes in the country ; 1 wibh to be understood to mean the articles themselves, and not the modes of using them, except the articles ot furniture, or trinkets of different kinds. Do die domestics of Englishmen in India appear to acquire any of the habits or manners of their masters? — By domestics, I suppose to be meant EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 9 meant the native domestics ; they remain the same in all the habits of Warren llasl- life as they were before they entered into the English service. The do- ipgf, Esq. mestics in India arc not inmates of the same family with their masters as v Y ' in England ; they reside at home in their own families, and only attend in the day time, or occasionally when they are required to attend, but are still attached to their own homes. During the time that vou were in India, did the market for European commodities appear to you to be generally adequate to the demand for those commodities in India? — I have always considered them to be so. Upon the whole, are you of opinion that any considerable increase in any way of the intercourse between the natives of this country and the natives of British India might be dangerous both to the inhabitants there, and to the government there ?— >I believe so, I feel an assured belief that it would be so. (Examined by the Committee.) In the answers you have given to the question with respect to the demand for British and European articles by the natives of India, did you intend to confine yourself strictly to British India, or to India Proper ? — I believe I have spoken specifically to both. In speaking of the probability of a demand for British and European articles in India, did you mean to state that no countries adjoining India are likely to make any further demands for British and European articles ? — No; it was always my wish, and as far as my power extended, it was my endeavour, to explore the possibilities of extending our commercial intercourse with other countries, both bordering upon India, and remote Irom it, but within our commercial reach for that purpose. I at a very early period seized an incidental occasion which was offered to me, of introducing a communication with the countries of Bootan and Thibet, and had at one time succeeded, or thought I had succeeded, so far as to afford an opening to a remote intercourse with China ; the death of the Lama of Thibet, whom I had found means to employ as an agent of this design, with other circumstances not necessary to be mentioned here, defeated that purpose, and all my hopes connected with it : I made a similar attempt to establish a commercial intercourse with Egypt, and another with Cochin China ; all proved abortive. I think that a more effective government than that which I possessed, might in this way open C new 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren Hast- new channels of trade, to the great benefit of the Company and of the tngs, E.q. British nation; but it is only by the authority of the Company through v v <* their established agents, that these ends could be accomplished. Do you consider the supreme authoiity now vested in the Company, and that of the courts of law now established in India, to be insufficient, if duly administered, to secure redress for the natives from any injuries to which they may be subjected in their intercourse with Europeans of any description, even if such Europeans should happen not to be servants of the Company ? — I am afraid they are not sufficient. Are yc-u of opinion that no extension of the present system of the administratiou of justice in India could be made equal to that purpose ? — I am not sure whether it is my opinion that any addition to the powers, which the supreme court of justice at present possess, wojld be either adequate to the intended purposes, or would not rather prove more injurious than the present state of it : I should fear to assert an opinion that may not be supported by other witnesses before your Lordships ; but with all the veneration which I feel for the laws of this country, I do not think them a blessing for those we possess abroad. I think every instance of counteraction between the two powers more hurtful to the govern- ment than conducive to the ends of justice. I think that the powers of our government are not sufficiently strong, nor sufficiently independent. In what year did you leave India ? — I left India the second of Fe- bruary 1785. Would the introduction of a church establishment into the British territories in the East-Indies, probably be attended with any consequences which would be injurious to the stability of the government of India ? — I have understood that a great fermentation has arisen in the minds of the natives of India who a;e subject to the authority of the British government, and that not partial, but extending to all our possessions, arising from a belief, however propagated, that there was an intention in this government to encroach on the religious rights of the people. Fronv the information of persons who have recently come from the different establishments of India, your Lordships will easily know whether such apprehensions still subsisted when they left it, or whether the report of them is groundless; but if such apprehensions do exist, every thing that the irritable minds of the people can connect with that will make an im- pression upon them, which they will adopt as certain assurances of it. So EAST-IN01A COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. H So far only, considering the question as a political one, I may venture to Warren Hast- express my apprehension of the consequences of such an establishment at ings? Esq. ^ this particular season ; in no other light am I permitted to view it : but I ' « can conceive that in a proper time and season it would be advantageous to the interests of religion, and highly creditable to the Company and to the nation, if the ecclesiastical establishment in India were rendered complete in all its branches. The "Witness is directed to withdraw. Then WILLIAM COWPER, Esq. is called in; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel)— State to their Lordships how long you were in the Jfm.Cowper, service of the East-India Company ?— About two and thirty years. ( _^___, Did you reside during that time in the British dominions in the east ? — In the province of Bengal wholly. Was it in any particular part of that province, or in several parts of that- province?— In the several parts or divisions; I was also for a ihort time in the province of Oude, at the court of the Nabob Vizier. Did you, during that residence, hold any high official situations in the service of the East-India Company ?— During five years I held the office of president of the board of 'revenue; and I was, during the whole of the last ten years, a member of the supreme council. Had you, during that: time, great opportunities of studying the manners, and habits of the natives of British India ? — I endeavoured to make myself acquainted with them as far as opportunities occurred to me. Were the opportunities you have enjoyed, in fact, great or not ? — They were great. Had you great opportunities of ascertaining what would be the effect of an increased facility of intercourse between British subjects and the native inhabitants of British India ? — I apprehend that the effect of such increased intercourse would be to disturb the peace of the country ; it would assuredly have the effect of embarrassing and perplexing the local government and the public functionaries. C 2 Do 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Win. Ccwper, Do you conceive that those effects, which you apprehend, would have Esq. their origin in the peculiarities of the native character and habits? — I do : the first probable effect of this novelty would be to excite general alarm among the natives wherever these new adventurers, or as they would probably deem them new settlers, should arrive. Uninformed as the European must be of every thing that it was important to him to know of the habits, the customs, the prejudices, the peculiarities, the laws, and the religion, both of the Mahomedan and Hindoo inhabitants, he would ignorantly in a thousand ways be exposed to violate some and give offence in others ; it cannot be supposed that some violences would not be committed by the European : this would tend to exasperate both the Hindoo and Mussulman population, and, supposing that those adven- turers were multiplied to the extent that the question I imagine intends, would lead to universal disorder, anarchy, and confusion in the interior, infallibly as 1 should think. You have spoken to the effect of an unrestrained intercourse between British subjects and natives throughout the provinces of British India ? — 1 beg I may be understood as confining myself strictly in any evidence I may give before the right honourable Committee, to the kingdom of Bengal ; I know nothing personally of any other part of the dominions of the East-India Company in India ; I never was employed any where but in the kingdom of Bengal. Are the Committee to understand, that, under the name of Bengal, you include all the provinces included under the government of Bengal ? — It is divided into the provinces of Bengal Proper, the province of Bahar, and the province of Orissa. I have already had the honour to state, that I was also tor a short time employed at the court of Oude, as an assistant; to the resident there, as he was then called. You have described the probable effect of an unrestrained intercourse between British subjects and natives through all the provinces of Bengal;, do you apprehend that the same effect would in any degree follow from a considerable relaxation of those restraints under which the intercourse now subsists between the two races, even supposing that intercourse not to be completely restrained ? — Proportionably, all these evils I apprehend would arise from such relaxation of those regulations. Are there any ports in the provinces of Bengal, to which Europeans could have commercial intercourse, except the port of Calcutta?—! do not recollect any other ; there are inlets into the provinces along the coast to EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 13 fo the eastward, between that and Chittagong, but no ports that I know of, Win. Cozcper, except the port of Calcutta. Esq. Supposing British subjects to be allowed a free access to the port of Calcutta, but to be confined within certain limits of that port, do you apprehend that such an intercourse between British subjects and the nr.tives would lead to any evil effects ? — I apprehend very little ; they could have no intercourse, under those circumstances, but with the town of Calcutta. Are you of opinion, that, in the event of a free trade being established between the two countries, it would be possible to confine Europeans within those narrow limits described in the last question ? — I do not exactly understand what is meant by the expression a free trade. By a free trade is meant an open trade between all the ports of this country and all the ports of British India?— I should think it would certainly be possible to do so, but very difficult, and in proportion as the influx of Europeans should be great. Are the Committee to understand, that if the influx of Europeans into that country were conskieiubly increased, it would be difficult for the local government there to confine their residence to narrow limits? — I think it would be ; that it might be done by a very vigilant police, I cannot have a doubt, always meaning to speak of the port of Calcutta. Are you enabled to state from your own experience, whether there appears any great, or any increasing disposition in the native inhabitants of British India to use the commodities of Europe ? — I think not ; I can speak only to the period when I myself resided there : I must beg leave to state to the right honourable Committee, that it is now more than twelve years since 1 left that country ; of course I wish to be under- stood to speak merely from report, as to every thing which has occurred since. Is your opinion with respect to the improbability of an extended use of European commodities by the natives of that country, founded upon any peculiarity in the character of that population ? — Undoubtedly all their habits and prejudices go to prevent them from taking off such commodities in any quantities : a large proportion of those commodities they might be led to reject from their habits and prejudices; even their religion : for instance, the whole Mussulman population would never touch any thing that was made of hair, from the apprehenskm that it might have pro- ceeded. 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wm. Cowper, cceded from the hog or swine, and would be induced to reject every Esq. commodity of that kind, unless they could have the most perfect assurance 1 v ' that there was no such danger to be apprehended, and so of other fabrics: but I should apprehend that the greatest obstacle to the purchase of Euro- pean commodities by the natives of India, would proceed from their po- verty, which utterly puts it out of their power to indulge themselves in any such luxuries; the vast mass of population of India are extremely poor; and the wages of labour very low. Do you mean that remark to include Hindoos as well as Mahometans ? — Certainly. Can you state from your experience, whether the manners and habits of that people are capricious or constant ? — They are constant, as far as I have had any opportunity to observe them ; I might almost say unalterable ; unaltered they certainly have remained for a very long period of years ; for a?es. 'o Is the Committee to understand from you, that the improbability of which you have spoken, of an extended use of European commodities in that country, is rooted in the manners and habits of the native population ? — Undoubtedly in their manners and habits, and the inadequacy of their means to indulge themselves even if their manners and habits did not op- pose any bar to the purchase of such commodities. Supposing, for argument sake, that the use of European commodities in that country is greatly extended, do you suppose that this effect is pos- sible without a very extensive intercourse between British subjects and the native population ? — Undoubtedly not : I have no reason to believe that there is any wanr, or that there ever was any want during my residence in India, of a sufficient supply of European commodities to answer all the purposes of the English population ; and I believe during that period very little, or none indeed, was ever purchased by the native inhabitants. In Calcutta, and some few of the larger cities, a few articles might be taken off by the natives ; in Calcutta, by the Hindoos chiefly, they were in the u*e of decorating their houses and their temples during their festivals with mirrors and lustres of European manufacture : some few close carriages also are used by the natives in Calcutta. I cannot specify any other articles from memory. Supposing, therefore, for argument's sake, that any extended use of European commodities in that country .is likely, do you imagine it would take EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 15 take place without involving all those hazards which you have described Win. Coivpcr, as likely to arise from an unrestrained intercourse between the native sub- Esq. jects and Europeans ? — Undoubtedly not. A traffic with the natives to the ' r ' extent which the question supposes, must necessarily include the distribu- tion of European adventurers over the whole face of the country, as I know r.ot how otherwise they could possibly find • mart for their commo- dities; and even then, I think, I am warranted in saying, fiiat not one in two thousand, upon the aggregate of two-and-thirty millions, which may be possibly the population cf Bengal and its dependencies, would be found to take off a single article of the description mentioned in the question. In the event therefore of a free trade between the ports of this country and the ports of British India, do you conceive there is much prospect of ah extended use of British manufactures or commodities in that country ? — I certainly do not think there is any probability of such an extension. Do you suppose that the demand for European commodities in that country, on the part of thenative population, is chiefly confined to a demand for luxuries ? — I do ; I have already stated what kind of commodities the natives (as far as they do purchase such commodities) are in the habit of purchasing, chiefly articles of European furniture. Do you conceive the experiment of an open trade between this country and that, would be tried with the remotest chance of success, without supposing a considerably increased intercourse between British subjects and the natives of British India ? — I should think not. Do you suppose therefore that any advantages could possibly result from the experiment of an open trade, which would not be much more than counterbalanced by the dangers you state yourself to apprehend from that intercourse ? — I think the advantages would be more than counterbalanced by the dangers. While you resided in India, was the demand for European commodities completely supplied by the markets ? — During the greater part of the time I resided in India, there was generally a glut of European commodities; very many adventurers were totally ruined by the impossibility of disposing of the commodities which they imported to Calcutta. Did the demand for European commodities increase while you were in India on the part cf the natives r — Not that I know of; it was in the state I have already represented to their Lordships. While "V" lo 'MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wtn. Cotbper, While you residect in India, did the use of European commodities, and Esq. the demand for them, on the part of the native population, in your appre- ' hension, increase? — Not on the part of the native population. Certainly it increased so far as the settlement was increased ; when I left that settle- ment in 1801, Calcutta was six times the size it was in the year 17Gi), when I arrived there. Are the committee to understand that this increase of demand from the increase of the settlement, arose from the increase of the European part of the settlement ? — Certainly ; in proportion as the European part of the settlement enlarged, the rich natives resorted to Calcutta, and of course the European commodities which they were used to take off would be proportionably increased; but always limiting this to a very few of the richer inhabitants of Calcutta, chiefly Hindoos, who were in the habit of receiving the European gentlemen and entertaining them at their houses, at particular occasions, and at the seasons of their festivals. Is there any probability of any such increase of demand for European commodities among the natives of the East as, in your apprehension, the present system will not sufficiently supply ? — Certainly not, as far as my knowledge goes ; I must always be understood to confine myself to the period at which I left Bengal. (Examined by the Committee.) During the time that you resided in India, did not the number of Eu- ropean inhabitants greatly increase ? — It did very greatly. Did any inconvenience in your knowledge arise from that increase of European inhabitants ? — Very little in Calcutta. I should imagine the Europeans in Calcutta, of course, were subject to, and kept in order by, the Supreme Court at that presidency. Were there not regulations and restraints under which the Europeans not in the service of the Company resided in the interior ? — There were such restraints and regulations. Were they found effectual for preventing any serious inconvenience ? — They certainly were ; now and then of course mischievous spiritswere found there, and then it became necessary for the government to exert the j)ower which was given them by act of Parliament to remove such persons. Was EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 17 Was the existing authority of the government sufficient for that pur- Wm. Cozcpcr, pose ? — It certainly was ; though of course, being rather an invidious Esq. power, it was (at least while 1 had the honour to have a seat at the l y ' Supreme Government) very reluctantly exercised, and always with great caution. Did any inconvenience arise at Calcutta from the intercourse the Ame- ricans had for the purposes of trade there ? — Not that I ever heard of; they always comported themselves, as I have understood, speaking gene- rally, with great decency and propriety. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then Lieutenant Colonel Sir JOHN MALCOLM is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) How long have you been in the military service of the Lieut Col. East India Company ? — I went to India in 1783. £ ir / Malcolm, Are you still in the service of the East India Company? — I am still. Acquaint the Committee whether you have not also been employed in several diplomatic missions and civil offices? — The last fourteen years that I was in India, I was employed upon thirteen distinct political missions, and during that time I was also secretary to the Governor Ge- neral of India during two years. State what those diplomatic missions or civil offices were ? — I was em- ployed upon three missions to Persia ; I was emplo\ed in the Decan with Lord Wellington upon a mission to the court of Dowlat Row Scindia ; on a mission to Hmdostan, to negociate with the Marhatta Chiefs, Scindia, and Holkar ; on one to Bombay, on the occurrence of the death of the Persian Ambassador ; and on several other missions of lesser importance. I was also with Lord Lake during the last campaign in Hindostan. Have those several missions enabled you to observe the characters and habits of the natives of Hindostan, not only in the Company's settlements, but in almost every part of the Peninsula of India? — Having travelled over almost all India, and having either aided in or conducted negocia- tions with every principal court of India, and resided not only at the chief settlements, but almost in every different province of India, I no doubt D had 18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THfcL Lieut. Co!. had the opportunity of making observations that enable me in a great Sir J-. Maho/m. degree to answer that question, regarding the manners of the natives. "V Are not the native inhabitants of Hinc'ostan peculiarly tenacious of their principles, practices, and fashions ? — To a degree that can hardly be imagined by an European who has not been in India. Have you had opportunities of ob erving the general effect where >here has been an intercourse in any degree unrestrained between the natives of this country and the natives of India ? — If by that question an unrestrained intercourse is meant, I cannot say that I have ever known Europeans to have an unrestrained intercourse:- all I have seen in India have been, either officers of the army, who are under military law, or officers in the civil service, who are under a very strict civil discipline ; or persons either licensed by the Company under certain penalties and restrictions which expose them to be sent out of India upon misbeha- viour, or persons unlicensed, who were always liable to be sent away the moment they were noticed ; those were the only Europeans I have ever seen in India: therefore I have never been able from observation to d raw- any conclusion with respect to what the result would be of an unrestrained intercourse-. Is it your opinion from your observation of the natives of India and the Englishmen in that country, that it is necessary to impose a very- strict restraint upon the conduct of the Europeans in their intercourse with the natives, for the protection of the natives of that country ? — Most undoubtedly, the restrictions now imposed upon every branch of Euro- peans in that country, are, in my opinion, far from being too severe or too strict. How long-were you resident at Mysore ?— I held the appoin;ment- of resident of Mysore for nearly nine years ; but from the various extra mis- sions on which I was sent, my actual- residence there was- not altogether above fifteen or sixteen months. Were there not at that time Englishmen at Mysore under your con- troul ?— The only persons at Mysore, during that period* were either En** glish officers or civil servants of the Company; but none, except those who were in my own family, were under my direct controul : but though the officers were not under me as resident, yet disputes they had with the natives were generally referred to the resident, who exercised a. considerable degree cl interference in all. points connected with the respectability of the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. VJ the Mysore government, and with the protection of the natives who were Lfetit. Cot. subject to that state. Sir J M.dcolrn. Did you find at that time that there were frequent quarrels between the few Europeans ar Mysore an i the natives of the country ? — There were, very frtquent; these were chiefly with young officers who were detached, or travelling through the country. As those quarrels were generally referred to yo'i, did you visually find they arose from the misconduct of the F.uropeans ? — Almost invariably, I cannot call to my recollection any exception ; they arose from violence •and intemperance on the part of the Europeans, and often from ignorancs ot the languages or customs of the natives. Is it your opinion that Englishmen in that country who are not in the East India Company's service, and therefore unacquainted with the man- ners and habits of the natives, are likely to offend them from ignorance of their prejudices and habits ? — There are mny Englishmen in the country, who have resided long in it, who are not in the service of the Compiny, and among that class there are many acquainted with the language and man- ners of the natives ; generally speaking, persons who are new to India, and unacquainted with their habits and manners, do not treat the natives well ; a circumstance which usually arises in persons who arrive in that country, and enter the military and civil service, from their youth and violence, but which generally terminates early with them, as they acquire a knowledge of the language and mann-ers of the natives; and it is a remarkable fact, that I can iiaidly call to my recollection, during a residence of nearly thirty years in India, one instance where a'person, who was acquainted with the manners and language of the natives, abused them or treated them harshly. Persons who arrive in India at a more advanced period of life are not so quick in learning the language; and if they have any transactions on their immediately coming to India, they put them- selves (I speak generally) in the hands of a native, who understands a little English ; and this class of men, who are I think without exception among the most fraudulent" and worst part of the community, gain. a livelihood by cheating both the European and the native with whom he deals: the European, sufficiently disposed to rage from a sense of his own incompetency, has his.pas^ion directed by the fraudulent intermediate agent against the unoffending native, so that what with a total ignorance of their manners, and a natural inclination to consider every 'hing not consonant with his own habits very absurd, on the part of $a European, " JJ 2 and -v- 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Col. and the alarm of the native, disputes are more frequent with persons of Sir J. Malcrfm. that kind than with others. Is it your opinion that much less danger is likely to arise to the peace and happiness of the inhabitants of British India from intercourse with Englishmen, who, from their long residence in that country, are acquainted with their manners and prejudices, than with persons coming from this country unacquainted with any of their manners and prejudices, and therefore from ignorance likely to offend them ? — No doubt. Can you give the Committee some idea of the extent of the British ter- ritories under the dominions of the East India Company ; can you, for instance, state within a few hundred miles, the distance between Bombay and Cuttack, which is across the Peninsula ?— Not without a reference to the map, though I have travelled it seven or eight times. From Calcutta to the northern extremity of the Company's territories near Delhi is upwards of JOOO miles, is it not ? — Yes it is. From Cuttack to Chittagong is from 5 to 600 miles ? — Yes, I should suppose so. In all that extent of country, do you know that there is only one court of criminal jurisdiction, videlicet, at Calcutta, in which any Englishman can be tried ? — There is only one court of criminal jurisdiction in the whole Bengal establishment, namely, at Calcutta. In case then any act of violence should be committed by any free trader or his agent, at the distance of several hundred miles from Cal- cutta, do you conceive it possible that the natives can have adequate justice against such trader or his agent ? — It would be attended with very great delay and inconvenience, no doubi. Is there upon the coast of Coromandel, which from Cape Comorin to the extreme point of the northern Circars is under the presidency of Madras, any criminal court to which an Englishman is amenable, except the court of Madras ? — None but the court of Madras. "Would not then the same objection apply in case any act of violence was committed by any trader or his agent upon any native of India, upon any ■EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 21 any part of the coast, at a distance from Madras ? — Certainly, there Lieut. Col. would be delay and inconvenience. - J. Malcolm. Do you know whether it has been the policy of the Company to con- fine Englishmen as much as possible to the presidencies ? — No doubt it ha3 been always the policy to confine them as much as possible to the presidencies and their immediate vicinity, 1 believe ten miles is the ex- tent ; the exceptions to this policy have been more frequent on the Ben- gal establishment than on any other, owing to the indigo plantations that are established in that quarter. Are you of opinion that, in the present state of the Indian govern- ment, the present regulations are effectual for that purpose ? — I believe they are ; I have not been a magistrate in India, and cannot answer po- sitively. In case of a free trade being opened between this country and British India, do nor you think that it woull be much more difficult to execute such regulations with effect, videlicet, the regulations by which the traders are chiefly confined to the presidencies and their environs ?- -The augmentation of numbers no doubt would increase the difficulty to a certain extent. From your observation, do the natives appear to have any taste for European manufactures or commodities ? — Many of the wealthy natives at the presidencies purchase articles of European manufacture, and broad-cloth I believe is sold to a very considerable extent ; there not being a more general sale is to be ascribed to the want of means of the great mass of the community to make any such purchases, and to the nature of their habits, the mode of their life, and their dress. Do you mean to state, that the mass of the population have no means of purchasing European commodities ? — The mass of the population have no means of purchasing European commodities. Do you mean that the purchase of them among the higher ranks is confined to those who are in the habit of intercourse with the English at the presidencies ? — Generally speaking, there are no numbers of wealthy natives that I believe are in the general habit of purchasing European ar- ticles, except those at the presidencies; but there are exceptions to this rule : perhaps the present Nabob of Lucknow, Sadit Ali Khan, from the taste he has for European articles, has purchased more than the inhabi- tants 12, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE TJevt Col. tsnts of five provinces have done ; for European articles are not consi- Sir J. Malcolm, dered as matter of necessity, and they are either bought as curiosities or *— — v / as luxuries. From your knowledge of India, can you form any opinion, if a free trade were opened, whether the demand for European manufactures in. British India would be likely to be increased? — Having always seen, not only in the principal British settlements, but in every town where there were British residents, and in every station where there was a military cantonment, an abundance of European articles of every description that were exposed for sale at various prices, from articles of the best quality and in the highest preservation, down to those of inferior quality and da- maged, and which market of articles was accessible to all natives as well as Europeans, I should certainly not conclude that there would be any immediate increase of sale from any measure of the kind, because the consumption must depend upon the purchasers, not the sellers. E>o you think that in all the ports of India in which you have been, the market for European commodities seems to be fully equal to the de- mand for them in that country ?— It appeared to me, from the circum- stances I have stated, to be equal to the demand; there was always an abundance in those towns, and a free access. Having applied yourself to the consideration of the present state of India, in your opinion is there more or less danger at present in offending the natives of British India since the conquests within the last twenty years than there was before; danger to the stability of the British power in India?— I certainly do think that the task of conquering India has been a very hght one, in comparison with that of preserving that vast empire. As foreign danger has been removed, our danger from revolt and insurrections, and other domestic concerns, has no doubt been pro- portionally increased ; and that revolt and insurrection, I do conceive, is more likely to be caused by our giving any offence to the usages and religion of the natives, than by any othei cause whatever. (Examined by the Committee.) % Isthe Committee to understand by your last answer, that our empire in India has become insecure in proportion to the diminution of strength. in thenat.ve powers?— No; 1 meant by my answer to convey, that our dinger from insu.rect.on and revolt had gradually augmented with the increase of our territories. 1 think that every state has two dangers, one fioni EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, 23 from foreign and one from domestic causes. We have in India, by the Lieut. Col. success of our arms, almost obtained an exemption from the former, Sir. J. Malcolm. thou°h bv the augmentation of our territories the latter must of course v v ' • • • i r be in some degree increased, and require more vigilance on the part or our government ; but I do not mean by that to state, that it is increased in any such degree as to make it at all an equal danger to the safety of the state, as what existed before those successes in the hostility of the native governments by whom we were surrounded. Do you happen to know whether the number of Europeans has very much increased in India during the period of your residence there? — I think they are very much increased, particularly in Bengal; there are a number of unlicensed Europeans, and amongst those a great number of artizans and mechanics, that are, I believe, unlicensed by the Company ; they are a kind of tolerated class; the class to whom I allude, are liable to be removed as soon as noticed. Has this increase of European inhabitants principally taken place at the presidencies ? — Certainly. Has any difficulty arisen in preserving tranquillity at the presidencies, on account of the increased number of European inhabitants ? — I have never known, since I have been in India, that the tranquillity of the- presidencies was threatened by any danger. You mentioned that quarrels had taken place with the natives in the Mysore country ; you meant by that, officers in the Company's service ? ■ — Yes; cither officers in the Company's or the King's service, travelling through the country. If articles of woollen manufacture should be fabricated with a view par- ticularly to the consumption of the natives, and sent to the northern parts of India, would they, in your opinion, find a market there ? — It would depend, in my opinion, entiiely upon their price ; they have their own manufactures that answer the same purpose as our lighter woollens, these ate the cumlies for the poorer, and the shawls for the superior classes ; the sale of European woollens must be chiefly regulated by the ability on the part of the natives to purchase them, as indeed the demand of any manu- facture must- depend upon its price. With regard to articles fabricated for the purpose, neither being acquainted with the price or the quality of the article, nor minutely knowing huw the natives would use it, I cannot. ?ive a more distinct answer. ' Are 2 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Col. Are you enabled to form an opinion as to the probability of increasing Sir J, Ma/coli?i. the demand for British manufactures in Persia ? — I think, the same diffi- v v ■ > culty exists in Persia, and perhaps in a still greater degree than in India, want of money among the common class of the community to purchase them. With respect to the higher class in Persia, have they any manufactures which are similar to our cloths, and which they use in the colder climates of Persia ? — They have none exactly similar to our woollens, but they have a great variety of manufactures of the country which are used as the dress of the natives; and the richer are fonder of using shawls than any other dress ; but they also purchase from the Company's factory at Bnshire a considerable quantity of woollens every year, and the North Western part of Persia, where the court is established, derives its chief supply of European articles by the Caspian Sea, from Astracan, where even English broad cloths are sold in great quantities. Does your observation of the geographical and political relations which subsist between the British dominions in India and other Asiatic coun- tries, lead you to think that the British dominions might be made the channel of trade to any considerable extent to those countries? — The trade with all the countries so situated in European articles, as well as Indian, is at present carried on with the utmost freedom, partly by the European agents in India, and partly by the Indian subjects of the Bri- tish government ; but as far as that question relates to Persia, Arabia, and the country to the North of Bombay, the trade is chiefly in the hands of natives subject to our government ; and from a full knowledge of the activity, and bold enterprise of that class of natives, who gene- rally import a great variety of European articles from England direct, I do not think the trade to those countries could be carried further than it is at present by any class of men. Do you think that such trade must necessarily remain confined to the class of men to whom you have alluded ? — Certainly not, it is a trade open to any person who chooses to engage in it ; those persons having only the advantage of preoccupation, and having a considerable shipping which they navigate at a very cheap rate; and 1 have further to observe, in elucidation of my answer to that question, that a great part of the trade is now carried on by the Arabs of Muscat, not only with three- masted vessels, but by small open vessels, navigated at a very slight ex- pence. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 25 Do you conceive that a«f attempts to introduce the Christian religion Lieut. Col. among the natives would be attended with dangerous political cornQ- Sir J. Mulcolm, quences ? — With the most perfect conviction upon my mind, that, * y» spvaking humanly, the Cnristian religion has been the greatest blessing that could be bestowed on mankind, and that it has tended more than all other causes to civilize and render happy those countries, by the inhabi- tants of whom it lias been embraced, nothing but the strongest impres- sion of the danger that would attend, not merely the attempt, but an im- pression among the inhabitants of India that such an attempt would bs made, could lead me to give a decided opinion that it would be attended with the most dangerous consequences; and I think the risk of those dangers would be encountered without the slightest prospect of accom- plishing the object; my reasons for this opinion refer to the present po- litical situation of the British government in India. The missionaries sent to India by nations who have not established any political power in that quarter, have I conceive a much better chance of effecting their object than those under other circumstances ; but even the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Danes, and the French (all of whom endeavoured to establish the Christian religion), were in a situation in India completely different from that in which the British now are. In the present extend- ed state of our empire, our security for preserving a power of so extraor- dinary a nature as that we have established, rests upon the general division of the great communities under our government, and their sub division into various casts and tribes; while they continue divided in this man- ner, no insurrection is likely to shake the stability of our power. There are but few general motives that could unite communities of men so di- vided, and many of whom are of a weak and timid character ; but it is to be remembered that there is one feeling common almost to them all; that is, an attachment to their religion and prejudices, and this is so strong that 1 have myself seen it change, in an instant, the lowest, the most timid and mo-t servile Indian into a ferocious barbarian. In a go- vernment ?o large as that of British India, there must be many who de- sire its subversion, and who would be ready to employ any means they could to effect that object; such would, I conceive, find those means in any attempt that was made to convert the natives of India, upon a scale that warranted them in a belief it had the encouragement of the British government. It would not signify to such persons what was the conduct of the missionaries employed, or the tenets of that religion which they taught; their object would be misrepresentation; and they would, I be- lieve, not find it impossible to kindle a flame, which might in its progress not only destroy the Biitish government, but all who profess the faith it was designed to propagate. E Is 26 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Col. Is it your opinion that the East-India Company has usually sent to India Sir J. Malcolm, as much of European manufactures as the country could consume, or <■ y ' had a demand for ?— If I can judge from the knowledge that their ware- houses are generally overstocked, and the great anxiety which I have known the government shew to promote the sale of woollens, I should certainly say they had. When I went upon the first mission to Persia in 1800, 1 was instructed by every means within my power to discover in what manner it was possible to extend the sale of European articles, and particularly woollens, in that quarter ; and the anxiety at that period to promote it was so great, that it led to very large sales by their agent at Bushire, at a price and upon a credit which brought a very severe and heavy loss upon the government. When 1 speak of woollens^ I mean broad cloths and long ells of a variety of descriptions. From whence were those woollens shipped ? — From Bombay. Do you apprehend that in the event of a free trade there will be any extension of demand for British manufactures? — Having stated that at present there is (as far as I have had an opportunity of making an obser- vation-) an abundance of European articles in every settlement, town, and- cantonment in India, I do not conceive there could be any immediate increase of the sale of those articles from any alteration in the system. Do you apprehend that the natives themselves, in consequence of the alteration- in the system, will have an increased demand for British manu- factures ? — As far as my knowledge (which is not minute upon points of commercial detail) enabled me to judge, there appeared to be always an abundant import of European articles into India, through the various soufces which have been opened, to meet any demand that there exists for those articles; and I should conceive, that individual interest would, upon the present svstem as well as any other, be sufliciently active to> meet any further demand that might arise; that the demand in India may increa e, I think is far from impossible, as great changes may even- tually take place in the habits of the communities in that country, but such changes cannot, I conceive, from the nature of the people, be sud- den, and must be the effect of great time. It is also proper to remark, in answer to this question, that the facility of intercourse with India, ftom leading to the establishment in that country of a great number of European artisans and mechanics, will, I conceive, lead to a diminution of the exports of a great number of European articles. i he manufac- ture of leather, lately established in Madras, has already not only fur- nished European accoutrements,] but all species of articles down to ladies- gloves. EAST -INDIA COMPANVS AFFAIRS. 11 g'oves. Carriages and other conveyances aie made by European artisans . Meut.-Col. *at Calcutta, all kinds of furniture, al! kinds of silver work, and in short, *"' ■'• Malcolm. everything they can. The cheapness of the labour of natives, whom v they teach to work under the supeiintendance of Europeans, in those arts, not only enables them to sell these articles cheaper, but is likely to be one means of introducing all such articles to more general use in the country, as they will become more within the compass of the means of' the natives to purchase. Do you believe that there is a very general desire in the natives of India to obtain various articles of European manufacture ? — Certainly not gene- ral. The communities of India are very distinct ; the inhabitants of the principal settlements of the British in India have adopted many ideas quite different from the inhabitants of the provinces ; among the former, those that can purchase them very frequently use European articles, but this still applies to a very small proportion of the population of those cities ; in the provinces the use of European articles is, I imagine, very rare, and confined to some of the principal and most wealthy persons ; nor do I be- lieve, from their simple attire and habits, and their attachment to the modes of their fathers, that the general mass of the people have any- great desire for them, even if they had the means of purchasing them. Are not woollen3 indispensable as a part of the clothing of the labour- ing class of the community, particularly in the rainy seasons? — The la- bouring class of the community almost all over India wear hardly any clothes at all ; and during the rainy seasons they have a coarse fabric of their own, which they wear; the price -of a woollen garment would, ge- nerally speaking, of that class, take the amount of his pay for several months to purchase. Do you believe that this class of persons, if they had the means of pur- chasing woollens of European manufacture, would not prefer them to the coarse fabric which you have described ? — I really cannot answer what they would do under circumstances of such a nature ; the woollen is a better manufacture than that which they use, though in many respects it might not be found so useful as the light fabric of their own, which keeps out rain remarkable well, and is chiefly used by them in the rainy season. Has it fallen under your observation that any persons who have the means of purchasing woollen manufactures, contented themselves with ihe cse of the article which you have described ? — Thousands ; almost the E 2 only 28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Col. only use the Marhattas apply our woollens to, is making saddle cloths'of Sir J Malcolm, them, and floor cloths for their houses. Do you believe, if the condition of the natives of India was much im- proved, there would not be a considerably increased demand for goods of European manufacture ? — If by the improvement of the condition of the natives of India, is meant their having more wealth, I certainly do con- ceive they would purchase more of our articles, particularly of woollens, than they do at present. Do you think that the condition of the natives of India under the Bri- tish Government is in a progressive state of improvement ? — Under the British government, the conditions of some classes of the community are certainly in a progressive state of improvement; the mass of the po- pulation, or in other words the labouring class, does not appear to be undergoing much change. vi hat classes of the community are in a progressive state of improve- ment under the British government ? — Merchants, and the present land- holders in India of all classes, must have their condition gradually im- proved, when living under a government which, by the justice and wisdom of its administration, and its power to protect them, secures them in a state of peace and tranquillity. By the landholders do you mean only the great landholders, or the occupiers down to the ryots ? — Generally speaking, I have no doubt that the condition of both the landholders and those under them is im- proved. You have stated that artisans from Europe have established many ma- nufactures in India, have you observed whether they employ many of the natives under them in learning those manufactures ? — The artisans from Europe who have established manufactures in India employ half casts, that is, the sons of Europeans and natives, and natives of the country, in their trade. Do you consider India in general as a very manufacturing country ?— ■ 1 consider that the natives of India are very industrious, and very apt to learn any trade or any art that they are taught. Do you not think that that disposition to manufacture, and the quan- tity of manufacture they have, will be fully equal to any improvement that EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIHS. 1Q - that may take place in the country, or any increase of demand ? — Lieut. Col. Certainly, in all articles which can be manufactured or made in that Sir J. Malcolm. climate. *■— — -v ' You have resided at Bombay ? — I have been there, I believe, ten times within the last twelve years, and have resided there twelve months at one period. Do you know whether British cottons have any sale at Bombay? — I am not acquainted with the fact. Have you been so far north as Hurdwar ? — I have been much further north than Hurdwar. Are you aware there is a great fair held there ? — Yes. What are the principal articles sold there ? — I never was at the fair ; but I consider horses and cloth, and every thing else that the natives in- terchange with each other, are sold there. Do you consider that the fair at Hurdwar is established merely for a market for persons south of the mountains ? — No ; persons from Nadown and all the mountainous districts to the north repair to that fair ; I even remember, some years ago, that several Chinese came to it, that belonged to an army that was within a very few marches of our provinces in that quarter. Are you aware whether any of the people from Thibet and Napaul re- sort thither? — I have no doubt they do; it is a place of general resort to the whole country. Articles sent to the fair at Hurdwar, you conceive, would find their way into Thibet and Napaul, if in demar.d there ? — Certainly ; there is an intercourse, both at that fair and other places, with the inhabitants of these countries continually. What do you conceive the nature of the climate to the north of those mountains to be, in Napaul, and Thibet, and China, to the north of that ?— It is extremely cold in the winter. • Do you not conceive that if British woollens of a cheap quality found their 30 MINUTES Oi- EVIDENCE ON THE ' if.'. " their way to the fair at I Jurdwar, that after a certain time they would be r J. Malcolm, jjj^iy t0 b e purchased by the inhabitants or those cold climates who ~" v ' might be led to that fiir ?— -I have no doubt many such persons wouid purchase British woollens, or any other warm clothing, which they have not of the fabric of their own country, if they had the means to make the purchase, j I have not information whether they have or have not the means. Is it your opinion that the East-India Company has better mean9 of in'roducing our manufactures throughout that country than individual merchants of this country, sending their goods there at random ? — No doubt, because they would employ (if such were their object) all the local knowledge of their servants to promote it.' Have not the East India Company at all times sent out articles as far as thev can possibly get a sale for them? — I can only speak to such a point from mere general report, not having been in that line of service myself, but I have always understood they did; in Persia I received my instructions to do so, accompanied by an anxiety towards the subject, which would lead to the conclusion that they did it in other quarters. Have not European merchants resident in India equally the means of knowing whether any commodities might not be sold with advantage as well as the East-India Company ? — Certainly, within all such parts of India as are generally known. Do you happen to know as a matter of fact, whether, in many articles of trade in India, the commerce has not been extended very much by the European merchants resident there, not belonging to the Company ? — No doubt it has. You have stated that your instructions, when you Went ambassador to Persia, were to push the manufactures of this country to the greatest ex- tent; did they extend to any other articles than woollens ?•— To the ge- neral commerce of the countries. Do you conceive that there is likely to be a demand for articles of hardware from this country ? — The Persians were very fond of ob- taining articles of that description as presents, but though they were Taken for sale by many captains of ships and others, during the time 1 was EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 31 I was there, I think, generally speaking, such were disappointed of a Lieut Col. market. Sir J. Malcolm* 1 v ' The witness is directed to withdraw. It being then proposed to adjourn this Committee till to-morrow ; The same is agreed to, and ordered accordingly. Die Martis, 6° ^prilis, 1813. The Earl of "Buckinghamshire in the Chair* Order of adjournment read. The counsel are called in. The proceedings of this Committee yesterday are read. The Right Honourable JOHN Lord TEIGN MOUTH is called in ; Lord and, having been sworn by the Lord Chancellor, a chair is placed for his TeignmoutJk Lordship near the table, and his Lordship is examined as follows: — V By Counsel.] Will your Lordship inform the Committee how long your Lordship was in the service of the East India Company ? — About thirty years, of which period I was resident about twenty-four in India. In what department of the Company's service ?— I was chiefly em- ployed in the revenue department, until I was appointed a member of the supreme council at Bengal. How long was your Lordship a member of the supreme council ? how long was your Lordship Governor of Bengal ? — Something more than three years a member of the supreme council, and about four and a half Governor General. Had. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lord TeisnmoHlh. Had your Lordship opportunities by your residence in Bengal to obtain an accurate knowledge of the character of the natives of tha/fc part of the country ? — I had many opportunities of obtaining a know- ledge of the character of the natives of Bengal, and it was my constant endeavour to obtain an accurate knowledge of it. From the result of your Lordship's observations upon the character of the people of that country, are you of opinion that they are peculiarly tenacious of their own modes of thinking and acting, and peculiarly jealous of any affronts that may be offered to their habits and prejudices ? — J think them very tenacious of their peculiar habits, customs, and prejudices, and that a violation of them would be strongly felt by them. In the event of the trade being opened between this country and India, and free permission granted to the natives of this country to enter and reside in the Bengal provinces at their pleasure, is it your Lordship's opinion that any serious evils are to be apprehended to the peace and happiness of the natives of that part of the country"? — An un'restrained admission of Europeans into the country, in the mode in which it has been explained by the counsel, would certainly in my opinion be attended with very great inconvenience and embarrassment to the governmentjof the country, and might probably be attended with mischievous and dangerous consequences. Does your Lordship apprehend that those . consequences would be dangerous to the peace and happiness of the inhabitant of the country? — The admission of a number of Europeans into the interior of Bengal, of people unacquainted with the habits and customs of the natives of that country, and many of them entertaining a contempt for them t would probably be attended with this inconvenience, that they would often violate the prejudices of the natives by their conduct, and excite a considerable degree of irritation in the natives by such conduct; but whether it would be attended with evil consequences to the peace of the, country, generally speaking, I feel some hesitation in giving any positive opinion ; there is another instance in which I think, the unrestrained admission of Europeans in the mode pointed out would also be attended- with bad consequences, that it would tend to lower the British character, in the estimate of the natives; and that might be deemed a dangerous effect, when the great disproportion between the inhabitants of India and the number of Europeans is taken into consideration. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. S3 Can your Lordship form any estimate of the proportion of the Euro- Lord peans in that country to the natives ? — Is the question confined to Bengal, IVignmouth. or to all India ? v. "V It is confined to those countric. with which your Lordship is acquainted. — If the question referred to all India, I could answer it with more cer- tainty; and I should say then, that I considered the proportion of natives to Europeans to be that of about two millions of natives to 1000 Euro- peans. I suppose the natives subject to the British government in India to be nearly sixty millions, and the whole number of Euroneans in all parts of India probably not to exceed thirty thousand. Supposing that irritation which your Lordship has supposed would take place in the minds of the natives, from unrestrained intercourse with Europeans, and supposing that degradation of the European character in their opinion which your Lordship has alluded to, do you nut think it might ultimately affect the stability of the British empire in India? — ■ A long course of irritation, and an increasing sentiment of degradation, might lead to such an effecr. That consequence would very much de-> pend upon the number of Europeans so admitted into India, and the degree of irritation whit h they might excite ; I should suppose that much of the evil might be corrected by the interposition of the govern- ments in India. If such traders were restrained from proceeding into the interior of the country, but were permitted to resort to and reside in all the ports of the peninsula at will, do you apprehend any similar effects from that permission ? — In that case I should think the effects would be compara* lively little. If Englishmen were allowed by law to pervade at will, and reside freely at all parts of the Bengal provinces, is your Lordship of opinion that it would be pos/ibly in the power of the supreme court at Calcutta, to which alone at present Englishmen are criminally amenable, to prevent or to punish the oppression of the natives by such persons? — The supreme court, I should conceive, could not act without the assistance of the local governments, be ause the superintendence of the police of the country is intrusted to officers appointed by the government of Bengal • and I believe that those officers so appointed, under the denomination of magistrates, act also as justices of the peace. The supreme court of judicature has no officers of its own in the interior, it could not therefore in the first instance restrain the oppressions of Europeans; if any such F were 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lord were practised, the complaint of the sufferers would probably be prefcffie Telgnmoulh. to the European magistrates, who have power to apprehend them, and 1 y J might send them to Calcutta for trial by the supreme court of judicature, if they judged it right and expedient. I do not think that any power would altogether restrain the commission-of acts of oppression ; but tljat by regulations adapted to the case, they might be prevented by punisiv- ment, as far as punishment can prevent the repetition of crimes. Is it not your Lordship's opinion, that under the present system the prevention of oppression by Europeans in the interior of the JSengal provinces, is chiefly owing to the summary power vested in the local authorities in such cases, to restrain the offenders, and to send them out of the country ? — I have not sufficient recollection of the regulations of the Bengal government to answer that question correctly ; I should suppose that the magistrates or police officers can only act by such regulations as are framed for their conduct. Is your Lordship of opinion, in the event of a free trade between this country and India, a considerably increased demand for European articles among the natives would be likely to take place ? — I think not. Will your Lordship state what are your reasons for that opinion ?— That I am not aware of any manufactures in this country that the natives would be likely to purchase in any considerable degree; this opinion is formed from my knowledge of their modes of living in India. Have the general mass of the population in the Bengal provinces the means of purchasing European articles if they wished it ? i — I should think certainly not. Is your Lordship of opinion, that under the present system, or any other system that might be adopted for the government of the Indian em- pire, that there is any reasonable probability that the general mass of the population of India should so increase in wealth as to be enabled to pur- chase European articles to any considerable degree ? — I see no prospect of it ; but I should not rest my answer to that question, merely on the increase of wealth, but my opinion is founded principally on the modes of living of the natives. In particular, does your Lordship think that there would be any chance ©f their wearing British woollens in the rainy season ? — Some few might be A EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 35 be induced to wear our broad-cloths in the cold season, but the bulk of Lord the people would not be able to purchase them ; and with respect to the Tei°nmoulh. higher ranks, I should think they would prefer the shawls of the country ^ ¥ ■ to our broad-cloths. I should suppose that the increased sale of broad- cloths would be very limited. When your Lordship states that some few might be induced to buy the broad-cloths of this country, does your Lordship mean that these persons are in the higher ranks ? — No, I do not. I should rather conceive them in a rank neither the highest nor the lowest ; I would for instance state the native servants of Europeans ; but under any circumstances, I think very few would be likely to use them. Your Lordship has referred for the foundation of your opinion to the general situation of the mass of the population in that country; will your Lordship be so good as to state the general situation of the mass of the population as to their houses, furniture, dress, and food ? — The general mass of the population of India live in straw huts; their furniture consists of a few articles of the country, mats, and a few earthen pots for dressing their victuals ; their food in general is rice ; their dress is a very small pro- portion of cotton cloth, the produce of the country. Is your Lordship enabled to inform the Committee of what the rate of labour is among the agricultural labourers of that country ? — I do not re- collect at present. Can your Lordship inform the Committee how much per month is necessary to maintain a family of that description ? — I should suppose that one rupee and a quarter, or about three shillings a month, would maintain a native luxuriously. And his family? — Not his family also. A single person ? — A single person. During the time that your Lordship resided in India, did it appear to you that the market for European commodities of all kinds was adequate to the demand for those commodities in that country ? — Does the question refer to the natives. It refers to the natives ? — I should think certainly yes ; because I am not F 2 aware -Y~ &$ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Itr . j aware what articles of European manufacture or produce the natives Teignmovih. jpwefaa*. Did it appear to you to be generally adequate to the demand by all ranks of people in that country ? — In general it certainly did. Did it happen to fill within your Lordship's knowledge, while you were in the Supreme Council, and at the head of the Bengal Government, that the East India Company used every endeavour to introduce European ma- nufactures to all that part of the country within the extent of their Char- ter ?— I have always understood it to be their wish and endeavour so to do. Is it }our Lordship's opinion that the present system of the Indian trade is fully acieqiate to supply any increased demand for European commo- dities among the natives that is likely to arise ?— Upon my estimate of the wants of the natives, I should certainly think it is. Examined by the Committee. During your residence in India, had not the European inhabitants greatly increased ? — I should think they must have increased very con- siderably. Have the regulations that were in force when your Lordship was in In- dia, proved adequate to prevent Europeans residing in the interior of the country from disturbing the peace of the country, or oppressing the native inhabitants ? — There were instances when I was in India, of acts of op- pression committed by Europeans ; and whenever such occurred, and weie reported to government, it interfered and punished them. I do not think any regulations would altogether prevent acts of oppression, and sets dis- turbing the peace of the country, although the repetition of them might be in a great measure prevented by punishing the offenders. Generally speaking, were the regulations found adequate to the purpose ? — If the question be put more generally as to the power of government, for I do not sufficiently recollect the nature of the subsisting regulations at that time, 1 should suppose it was in a great degree sufficient to check them. In those instances of oppression to which your Lordship refers in your former ryr- EAST-INDIA COM PAN VS AFFAIRS. 57 former answer, had you in your contemplation persons actually in the Lord service of the East India Company, or persons licensed to reside within Ttignmowh. the country by their government ? — I meant principally persons licensed * by the government to reside in the country, as I suppose the question al- luded to them, but my answer would equally apply to the Company's ser- vants. What does your Lordship conceive to be the population of the town of Calcutta ?— I never heard it mentioned upon any other than very vague grounds ; from my recollection of what I have heard on this subject, I should suppose about eight hundred thousand. Are not European articles of manufacture generally in consumption within the town of Calcutta ?— By the Europeans, and possibly some of the Portugue sewho have been born in India. But not by the natives resident within the town of Calcutta ? — Not, I should suppose, by the natives resident in Calcutta generally; there may be instances of a few natives, I will say three or four, who are in the habit of occasionally giving entertainments to Europeans, who may use lustres in the r houses, but I do not recollect any other articles of European ma- nufacture or produce in general use by the natives of Calcutta. Was there any considerable trade carried on by the Americans when your Lordship was in the government in India ? — 1 rather think, not ; at that period there was a gentleman in Calcutta who called himself an Ame- rican consul ; but I believe that the government did not acknowledge him in that character, although they were disposed to shew him all personal attention. I really do not recollect what number of American ships came to Calcutta during the time in which I was in the government, but the records of the Company I suppose will shew. I do remember some Ame- rican ships coming, but I do not recollect the number. You have stated that the subsisting regulations, at the time you were governor general of India, were generally found sufficient to punish any act of oppression upon the natives up the country ? — I stated more broadly that the power of government was. If the subsisting regulations had not been sufficient, were not the pow- ers of government large enough to render thein so? — At the time that I, ■ was in India 1 think they were- In the event of a free trade being opened with the principal settlements of MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lord et India, does not your Lordship conceive, that the power of government 71 'gnmouth. would be sufficient to prevent those ill effects which your Lordship seems, ^ v ' to have apprehended from an unrestrained intercourse? — I do not think any regulations of government could altogether prevent acts of injustice or oppression by Europeans iq the interior, but that regulations might be s ) framed as to biing the offender to punishment, in which case some of the evils would be mitigated. A question was put to your Lordship by the counsel, with respect to the power of controuling Europeans up the country; I think your Lordship's attention was pointed chiefly to the powers of the Supreme Court of Judi- cature at Calcutta; does not your Lordship think the magistrates, having power to apprehend persons offending, might send them to Calcutta to be dealt with there, by being sent to Europe, as the Governor General in Council should think proper ?— I do not recollect the extent of the power given by the law r to the government of India in this respect ; but in any case of enormity, as Governor General I should have exercised such power, taking the responsibility upon myself. With respect to unlicensed Europeans, the government have decidedly the power, and in one case I exercised it, in sending an European person to this country. In the houses of natives of wealth, is it not usual to floor their rooms with woollen manufactures of Europe ? — I know very little of the interior of the houses of the natives. In some of those in which I had access, which were those of the principal natives only, I believe the floor may have been covered in some instances with broad-cloth, but in general with white cloths, the produce of the country. There was a question put to your Lordship by the counsel, with respect to the endeavours by the East India Company to introduce British manu- factures into India; is your Lordship aware that that question extended not only. to India, but to all the countries within the Company's Charter? — My answer to it was given from a general recollection of the instructions received from the India Company in Bengal, and therefore I considered the question as applying to Bengal principally, as it was usual for the Court of Directors to send copies of their dispatches to the other settle- ments of Madras and Bombay to the Bengal government: the impression which I feel on this subject may have arisen from letters directed also to those presidencies. Then the Committee are to understand that the efforts that you con- ceive EAST-lNTDrA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. ?9' ceive the East India Company to have made for the introduction of Bri- ^ Lord tish manufactures are confined to the three presidencies of India ? — To Ttignmoulh. the three presidencies of India. *" Your Lordship was several times at Lucknow ? — Twice. Did your Lordship find that there was any demand for British manu- factures, either by the Nabob or people of Oude ?— The Nabob had amassed a very large quantity cf European articles in a house, which was known by the name of the Aina Couch, at Lucknow; but it was con- sidered as a kind of museum for the gratification of a particular propensity of the Nabob of Oude. I do not know that his example was imitated by any other of the people at Lucknow. Was his taste for British manufactures merely confined to the articles that were deposited in his museum in that house ? — I believe it was ; the articles there principally consisted of watches, clocks, and jewellery of different kinds. Did he not affect the English costume in his dress ? — No, I do not recollect that he did. Your Lordship is of course aware that no European can proceed into the interior of the country without the licence of the local government ; do not those persons, when they are licensed, enter into covenants with respect to their conduct when within the interior of the country? — My recollection does not enable me to answer that question with precision ; I rather think they t'o, but I am not certain ; it is a point of fact that may be ascertained from the records of the Company. Does your Lordship happen to know, whether it has been usual for the East India Company to send out any woollen manufactures to the East Indies, fabricated particularly with a view to the consumption of the na- tives ? — I do not know. Is it your Lordship's opinion, that the propositions for changing the East India system tend to establish those territories as colonies ? — That is a question which would require more consideration than I am enabled to give to it at present. Upon my view of the subject I. do not think it very likely to follow ; because I think that the merchants of this country, who have entertained large ideas of the profits to be derived from an unre- stricted trade to India, will be disappointed in their expectations ; and, that 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lord thaf though at first there may be many adventurers, that the number of Tei*tmouth. them, in future, will be greatly limited by the disappointment or their t — — ~y ' expectations. Does not your Lordship consider the admission of India-built ships upon the British register tends to put them on the footing cf colonies ?— I have never entered at all into the consideration of that question. ;Has it not been considered as a necessary policy to prevent the Ea.r- India territories from being put upon the footing of colonies ? — I should think that the policy that would prevent it would be the wisest. Has the experiment of opening our India trade to private traders and friendly nations, proved beneficial, or otherwise? — I have not sufficient recollection of the results of any experiment that may have been made, to. answer that question. Has the East-India Company better means of introducing our manu- factures in that country, than private merchants ? — If the trade were onen, I should suppose private merchants would have equal means with the Company, of introducing articles of this country into India. Have artisans from Europe established any manufactories in fndia ? — There have been coach makers, carpenters, shipwrights, watchmakers, and tai'ors, and perhaps other trades; but I do not recollect any manu- factories that have been established by artisans from this country, ex- cepting an experiment for tanning skins, the success of which I do not recollect. Are tne natives employed in those manufactories ? — I do not recollect *ny manufactories that have been established in India, by artisans from this country, further than 1 have mentioned. Does not your Lordship consider coachmaking and shoenuking, and those things manufactures? — If they are considered manufactures, the natives were certainly employed by the artisans in those businesses. What is the nature of those restrictions and regulations which your Lordship conceives might be provided to prevent the influx of Europeans into the interior of India, in the event of the trade being opened ? — I suppose that the commanders of vessels importing into India from this country, would be required to go to some port in India; that there they should It. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. +1 should be required to give an account of their crew, passengers, and Lord every European arriving in India in their vessels, to the government; TeigtimQutli that when they leave the port they should be required to mention any v Europeans who came out in their ships that had been left behind ; that no European should be permitted to go into the interior without a passport ; that the magistrates (and the regulations might be extended to collectors, and other officers of the government) be ordered to stop Europeans pro- ceeding in the interior without such passports; and that further, for the purpose of ascertaining whether any had obtained access into the interior, notwithstanding these precautions and regulations, that every British subject residing in the interior should be required to give a return of his name, residence, and occupation, once or as much oftener in a year as might be thought necessary, under a general notice ; that Europeans fail- ing to comply with the regulations, should be considered as forfeiting any right they had derived from licence or passport, to reside in the in- terior. Those are the regulations which immediately occur to me. Does your Lordship, upon the whole, conceive the regulations your Lordship has now enumerated, would be sufficient to prevent any consi- derable influx of Europeans into the interior? — I should think in a con- siderable degree, but not entirely. During the period of your Lordship's acquaintance with India, were any considerable number of Europeans, not subjects of Great Britain, resident in the interior of India ? — I should think very few. You confine your answer to the Company's possessions ?— If the ques- tion refers to the interior of India beyond the Company's possessions, there were many undoubtedly. Is your Lordship aware of any considerable inconvenience which re- sulted from the intercourse which must have taken place between persons so circumstanced and the natives of India?— In the court of the Nizam very great inconvenience arose from the influence of the French com- manding troops in the service of the Nizam. I think it is probable t&art the same inconvenience was more or less felt wherever there were Euro- peans in the employ of the native princes, particularly in times of un- * inendly discussion, or hostility between those princes and the Company's government. By inconvenience it is meant the inconvenience arising out of an un- G restrained 4 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lord restrained intercourse between Europeans and the nafives? — -There were Teignmoutli. certainly instances of such inconvenience when I was in India. ~v~ Would the regulations to which your Lordship has adverted as necessary in the event of a free trade taking place with India, for restraining the intercourse of British subjects with the interior, be effectual for the purpose of preventing disturbance, unless the subjects of other European powers can be effectually excluded from that intercourse ? — Those regu- lations were rather meant to prevent the unlicensed influx of Europeans into the interior of India, than to restrain them when so situated. I should think not, if the subjects of other powers had an unrestrained ac- cess into the interior of the country ; but I believe that is not the case at present, nor has ever been allowed by the British government, as far as it could prevent it. Then his Lordship withdrew. Then Major-General ALEXANDER KYD is called in ; and, having- been sworn, is examined as follows : Major-General (By Counsel.) Have you been inthe service of the East India Company? Alexander Kyd. — Yes ; I have been in their service thirty-nine years, thirty-three or thirty - v -v ' four of which I have been constantly resident in India. How long have you been returned to this country ? — A little more than" two years. You were, I believe, in the military service of the Company ? — I am now in the military service of the East-India Company. I wish to know whether you did not rise to some high station in that vice ? — 1 blishment. service ? — I now hold the office of Chief Engineer on the Bengal esta During your continuance in the service of the Company, had you an opportunity of visiting various parts of British India ? — I have visited most of the settlements and stations in the interior of the country in the Com- pany's possessions, and on their coasts. Had you during that time many opportunities of informing yourself with respect to the characters, manners, and usages of the natives of • India ? EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 43 India ? — From the line of my service I was necessarily frequently a long Major-Gcneral time at a place by myself; and of course had much communication with Alexander Kj/d. the natives, and had a great deal of business to do with them in forming i , ■> contracts for materials and workmanship in the various works I have had occasion to carry on. From the experience you have had on this subject, are you able to form a conjecture with respect to the probable effect of an unrestrained inter- course between British persons and the native inhabitants of India ? — I think from my own observation it would be fraught with very dangerous consequences, more particularly, if, as it appears to me, that the object pointed at should be attained, the trade was open to all the ports in India. Our possessions along the coasts now extend from the Girif of Cambay to the utmost point of the Peninsula of Malacca, a space of between 3 and 4,000 miles, in which there are innumerable ports in which small vessels endeavouring to push a trade might stop. I therefore conceive that if this permission of touching at these ports was granted to all such vessels, the government could not have a sufficient authority to restrain the evil that must attend so free a communication as such a class of Euro- peans as would be employed in navigating these vessels would have with the natives. On what observed peculiarities in the characters or usages of the natives do you found that opinion ? — It is an unfortunate circumstance, but it is certainly true, that the character of the lower class of Europeans is, to hold in utter contempt and to despise the character of the natives ; and on all occasions, where I have observed they have bad the smallest autho- rity, they never fail to treat them ill. There is another circumstance that is equally unfortunate, that almost all the lower classes of Europeans are addicted to spirituous liquors when they can get them. Spirituous liquors are to be got in every village or market in the country at a trifling price, and therefore they naturally will indulge in them, and in their intemperance ill treat the natives. Do you remember having seen instances in which this observation was verified ? — In my own experience I had occasion to employ a vast number of European overseers, which in general were taken from the military, and were recommended to me as men of the best character,; but in the end I found that it was impossible to delegate to them the smallest power, and I was obliged to leave off the employment of Europeans, from their habit of ill-treating the natives, and to take to native superintendents, in the works I was carrying on. G 2 la 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JMajor-Gencral In what part of the country did this happen ?— In many parts. I had Alexander Kyd. the conducting of the whole of the fortifications and military buildings at \ v -» the fort of Allahabad in the Dooab, in which I had the employment of many thousand people daily ; I have carried on public works at many other parts of the country. Did you find that abuses of this kind took place more or less in all the instances to which you have alluded ? — Almost in all. Supposing a very enlarged degree of intercourse to take place between British subjects and the natives of India, do you conceive any regulations could be devised to check those abuses ? — If it is to be considered the vast extent of our possessions, I do not think it can be imagined that the government at all the various ports can have an authority of sufficient force to guard against the disturbance that an indiscriminate admission of Euro- peans must necessarily bring on. Is it a matter of fact that the magistrates employed by the British go- vernment are at stations very dispersed from one another? — From the great extent of our possessions it necessarily must be the case. Supposing a great number of Europeans to be in British India who were disposed to penetrate the interior of the country, would it or not be possible for them to evade regulations that would be made to prevent them from fulfilling that object ? — If the free opening of all the ports of India, as I said before, was admitted of, it certainly would be exceedingly difficult to form any regulations that would prevent their penetrating into the interior of the country. Supposing the freedom of trade to be only partially established, still would the same evils follow in a proportionate degree ? — I think it the open commerce from all the ports of Great Britain was confined to certain ports in India, to the Presidencies, to Surat, Cochin, Calicut, Tellicherry, and to some of the largest settlements on the Coromandel and Malabar Coasts, that regulations and restrictions might be devised that would get the better of the evil in a great degree, but not entirely. Supposing trading vessels to go out to that country which should be un- successful in their speculation, how far would it be possible to prevent them from stopping at various points of the coast, even parts to which they were not permitted to have access ? — I think it would be quite im- possible ; the navy we have in India is so small in proportion to the vast extent EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 45 extent of coast that we possess, that I do not see it is possible that they M-ijor-Geiieral could be prevented from touching where they pleased. Alexander Kyd. Do you conceive that any bad consequences would follow from such an event ? — Most undoubtedly, from the reasons I have given in answer to the first question, that the lower classes of Europeans would be at liberty to land, and commit disturbances among the natives, which they always do when they are without restraint. Would any bad effects be produced with respect to the native commerce upon the coast, or among the islands of India ? — Certainly, if British ships were permitted to carry on the coasting trade that is now fully occupied by vast numbers of native coasting vessels, and manned by a very indus- trious class of sailors, it would drive them out of that trade, and would have a bad effect upon our revenues, and would do away a nursery of Lascars or native sailors, who on occasions may be employed in assisting to man our navy, as on several occasions has already happened. You have spoken of certain abuses which would follow from the inter- course of British subjects with the natives of India ; I wish to know whe- ther any of those abuses might be apprehended, with respect to any of the native vessels employed in trading in any of those seas? — None at all; the crews of the native vessels, and even of the country ships, (if you mean by them, the native vessels), are of the same class, have the same habits, and there would be no more difficulty than there is in a coasting vessel going along the coast of Great Britain ; they are in constant communication. Supposing traders to go from this country with British crews, would any abuses happen with respect to the native vessels of which you have spoken, and of which the crews and captains and owners are exclusively natives ? — Upon that subject I own I have some opinions that may probably appear strange ; but I very much fear that several of those disappointed traders would most likely wish to make good their losses, and might be induced to commit depredations upon those defenceless vessels ; and in con- sequence this free and open communication of ships of all descriptions might frequently lead to those depredations ; I am almost certain it would do it. Do you found that opinion upon any historical fact ? — We know there have been traders in former times, who even went the length of a regular system of piracy. Have 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ftfajor-General Have you had an opportunity of observing how far the natives of British Alexander Kyd. India shew a disposition to use. European manufactures? — Very little in- \ y -> deed amongst the lower classes ; from the srnallness of their pay, they are unable to indulge in any of our manufactures : the superior classes have got luxuries, and indigencies of their own, that generally speaking they prefer to ours : There are a few exceptions at the presidencies, where some men in imitation of their masters indulge in small articles of house- hold furniture, glassware, lustres, and things of that sort, but to no great extent. Do you conceive those aversions or indifference to the use of European manufactures on the part of the natives, to be founded in a national peculiarity of taste, or usages, or opinions ? — Exactly ; they have habits of their own, so different from ours, that I do. not think it would be ever possible to bring the whole mass of the people to use manufactures of ours that could in fact be of no use to them. Exclusive of the immediate environs of the presidencies, have you ob- served any thing like an assimilation, or a growing assimilation, to Euro- pean habits, or wants ? — None at all ; merely at the presidencies. Is it within your knowledge that the exports in European manufactures to India have in fact increased ? — The export of European manufactures certainly within these thirty years has very much increased; but that appears to have arisen from the very great increase of our army in India. Thirty years ago there were only one or two King's regiments in the ser- vice, at present there are thirty ; our own military establishments have at least doubled ; the civil service upon the three establishments have also nearly doubled. This increase of European population appears to me to fully account for the increase of the exports during that time ; from which I conclude that the exports have principally been for the use of Europeans. In what degree does there appear to be any thing like a growing use of European manufactures on the part of the natives at the presidencies ? —Upon my word, it does not strike me in a very great degree : all the presidencies have been very rapidly increasing in point of size and popu- lation ; or course there are a greater number of natives who are likely to give into those habits in proportion to the increase of the inhabitants. Do you mean that the increase of the native inhabitants has tended at ah to extend their use ?— Certainly, in the same proportion as they have increased. D© EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 47 Do you mean to say there takes place a degree of association or inter- M*ijor-General course between the natives or those settlements, which does not take Alexander Kyd. place elsewhere ? — Certainly, the communication of natives with Euro- v y / peans is much more at the presidencies than at any other part, and therefore they are more likelv to adopt a few of their habits. Supposing then, by any arrangement the European inhabitants of the principal settlements were greatly increased, do you conceive the effect of such arrangement could be a growing use of European manufactures among the natives in the interior of the country? — No, I do not think that the natives, generally speaking, have a taste for our manners or oar manufactures; simply those that have been long established, such as broad cloth, a number of the metals, and ornaments in glasses, small looking glasses, but not to any great extent. I imagine the demand for all these articles has been a long while stationary. Supposing, for argument sake, that the use of European manufactures could be greatly extended in the interior of the country, must we not assume it as a necessary condition to that effect, that there must be a very extended intercourse between Europeans and the natives of the interior of the country ? — Certainly, I should think that if it took place, it must be by a very intimate connection between them ; but I have my. doubts that any connection would ever make it take place. Supposing, for argument sake, the use of European manufactures to be greatly extended in British India, must we not suppose, as a condition to that effect so extended, an intercourse between British subjects and the natives of British India, that would lead to all the dangerous consequences you have before described ? — Certainly, I think so, because I conceive the extension of the use of European commodities, could only be brought about by such a communication ; still I do not think there is any com- munication that would do it. Is it a fact that many persons in that country who have the means of purchasing European manufactures, do in fact not purchase them r — In the present mode In which the commerce in European manufactures is carried on to the interior of India, the natives at almost every point have an opportunity of purchasing with the utmost facility. ^ I have been at almost every part in the interior of the country, in the Seik country very lately, where I found the same articles of European manufacture used by natives in the greatest abundance ; therefore I do not think any ingenuity would push it further than it is at present. r were- 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major-Gcneral Were these articles within the reach of natives qualified from their Alexander Kyd. means to purchase them f — Certainly they were. On this subject I beg * v ' leave to state a fact; when the Mahratta army joined Lord Cornwall is's army (with which I then was), on its retreat from Cunam Bada in the Mahratta camp, which marched across the whole Decan, there was almost every European article tha was necessary for our use, which spe- culators had brought for our accommodation ; this is a proof that they are generally circulated throughout India, and that natives who choose to have thera might purchase with the utmost facility. Can you say whether property is not very unequally distributed among the natives of that country ? — Very unequally ; a great mass of the people have only enough by labour to subsist themselves and their families. Do you know the price of labour in India ? — I know the price of labour perfectly well in most of the parts of India : in Bengal, Bahar, and Oude, the common workmen in moving the earth or in labouring for Europeans have three rupees a month, equal to Is. 6d. ; but I believe that by the natives they are paid still Jess. Is that the general scale of payment ?— That is the general scale of pay of labourers employed by Europeans ; I dare say that the labourers em- ployed by the ryots and farmers are paid considerably less than that sum. It is hardly necessary therefore to ask, whether it must not be an immense reduction of the price of European manufactures that would place them within the reach of those persons ? — The thing appears to me perfectly impossible. Do you ascribe this cheapness of labour to any circumstances in the climate, soil, or nature of that country ? — The cheapness of labour of course follows from the cheapness of provisions , the soil is in genera! very fruitful, and wherever a native steps he has the produce for his food ; garments they require but little, and those are acquired also at a very cheap rate. What sort of huts do they live in ? — In various parts of the country they differ ; but in general a low hut with one door, constructed of low mud walls and covered with thatch. Are they temperate people ?— Generally speaking, very tempera specially the Hindoos. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. *9 Does the climate ever require the use of much fuel ? — Not for warming Major-General themselves, simply for culinary purposes. Alexander Kyd. Are you able to say, whether rice, which is the food of the greater part of the people, does not go further in point of subsistence than most other produce of the ground ? — I do not think that rice, as a food, goes so far as many of the other grains ; I think it requires a greater quantity of that aliment to produce the same nourishment. Are there not two crops of rice in the year ? — Yes. In point of fact, does not a piece of ground which is employed in growing rice support as much of human life as it would employed in any other way r— I should think so; there is no soil which produces a greater quantity of nourishment for the support of life, than that pro- ducing rice. Is the Committee to understand, therefore, that the necessaries of life are far cheaper in that country than in this? — Oh, far cheaper, beyond all comparison. Does not that ari^e in a great measure from circumstances which you have already described ? — Undoubtedly. Would many of those articles which are considered as comforts by the lower orders here, be considered as such by the natives of British India? — I should like to have the articles specified. Articles of clothing for instance ? — The natives of Hindostan have a dress of cloth round their middle, with a small turban, and a blanket to sleep in ; that is their whole dress. Do you mean to imply, therefore, that the low price of labour in India has its origin in fixed circumstances ? — I should think so. Then, on a rough calculation between the price of labour in that country and the price of k.bour in the countries of Europe, do you con- ceive that the countries of Europe can ever supply with manufactures to any great extent the countries comprised within British India ? — Cer- tainly not, from these causes, the cheapness of food and the cheapness of labour. a is SO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major-General Is it therefore likely, in your opinion, that under any circumstances or Alexander Kyd. any system whatever, the manufactures of this country can obtain a very *— — v ' increased sale among the great mass of the Indian population? — In con- sidering that question, I have been long of opinion, that it is not possible to increase the consumption of European articles to a much greater degree than it is at present among the natives ; but it will go on progressively with our success in India, and with the increase of Europeans, and their children (half casts), whose manners and habits are the same, and there- tore use the same articles as their fathers. Confining yourself at present to the natives, do you conceive that their means of purchase are, under any circumstances, likely so to extend as to enable them to command European manufactures ? — I do not see how it is possible that their means of purchase could be increased. Supposing that, from any cause, Europeans going into that country, and wishing to employ the labour of the natives, should by a competition among themselves for persons to labour, raise the price of labour, do you conceive that that advancement in the price of labour would be likely to be permanent ? — It would depend upon the continuance of that competition, I think. As you have explained that subsistence is so much cheaper in that country than in Europe, supposing an increased price of labour to facili- tate their means of subsistence, would not it increase the number of marriages, and increase the number cf labouring classes? — Yes, and I think would increase the price of provisions in a proportionate degree. To what circumstances do you conceive it to be owing, that the manu- facturers of India can ever enter into competition in Europe with the manufactures of countries which are much nearer to the market, it being supposed they are manufactures of the same kind ? — From the extreme lowness of labour. It being assumed then, that the price of labour is a necessary ingre- dient in the price of every commodity brought to the market, do not you conceive that an increase in the price of labour would throw great diffi- culties in the way of bringing Indian commodities into the markets of Europe ? — It would certainly increase the price of those commodities, but whether to such a degree as to render it unprofitable to bring them to Europe, I do not know. Would EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 51 Would it not, in point of fact, increase the difficulties considerably ?— Major -General It would certainly in proportion to the increase of price. Alexander Kyd. Do you therefore conceive that the same circumstances, namely, an advance in the price of labour, which should increase the means of pur- chase of European commodities on the part of the natives of India, would diminish the facilities of an export trade from India to Europe ? — I do not think that any advance in price of labour, from any circumstance that is probable, would enable the natives of India to use European articles more than they now do. Do you conceive that the present system does or does not sufficiently provide for any such increase of demand as seems probable ?— I am per- fectly convinced it does to the utmost degree ; and, from my own experience, I am certain that for a long time past almost every article that has been carried out to India, one half of it has been destroyed by the climate : for these twenty years past, there has been constantly a glut of European articles in all the markets, and I believe very little profit; indeed 1 should suppose on a general average a loss. Supposing colonization to take place in British India, do you conceive that event would be favourable to the happiness of the natives of British India ? — If by colonization is meant, that the Europeans should become farmers and labourers of the land, I do not think the thing is possible ; the climate is so ill suited for Europeans labouring out of doors, that I do not see it could be carried on ; if they are to be simply the farmers and em- ployers of labourers, I hardly call that colonization. Supposing that to take place which you have excepted in your answer to the question, that they should not be employed in the manual offices or as labourers, but as employers ; supposing the British population and the mixed Hindoo-British population to increase, under such circumstances, do you conceive that that event would be favourable or not to the happiness of the natives ? — I decidedly think it would not be for the happiness of the natives. Do you think it would be favourable to the stability of the British Go- vernment in that quarter?— I do not think it would. (Examined by the Committee.) Are there any number of Europeans residing in the Seiks Country ? — At H 2 this 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON Tift Major -General this period I should suppose none at all, but at the post that has lately been Alexander Kyd. established there on the banks of the Sutled^e at Ludhiana. * v ' In whose hands did you find those articles you have mentioned ? — In the common bazars, or many of the great towns in the Seik Country. If the trade were opened from the outports of Great Britain and Ire'and, and the import trade confined to the Port of London, do you conceive any additional dangers would arise in India from opening the trade from thence to some of the outports as well as to the Port of London ? — No danger to India at all; I do not see how by this communication danger would arise. You have stated, that in the public works carried on under your direction in India, you latterly preferred the employment of natives, as superintendents, to Europeans ; what opinion has that enabled you to form respecting the capacity of the natives when so instructed and employed ? — The capacity of the natives, respecting carrying on all works of ingenuity, is beyond what people in general can conceive : I have executed, with natives alone, buildings of all descriptions, made up furniture of every kind, in short directed them to cast cannon; there is nothing that I under- stood myself, but what I could get the native artificers to execute, and in a very superior manner ; they are a very ingenious and a very intelligent people. Have you observed in the persons you so employed, and whose con- dition has been bettered in consequence, any general improvements in their character and habits of life ? — Of course, as they got higher pay, and were enabled to live in a better manner, they improved in intelligence and civility. Did it lead them to assimilate in a greater degree to the manners and habits of Europeans? — Not at all ; only to indulge more freely in their own luxuries and accommodations. Have you observed any material difference in the price of labour, and the condition of the labourers, in the different districts with which you have been acquainted ; or does the statement you have made on that sub- ject, apply equally to all the parts of India you are acquainted with ? — Not exactly to all the parts of India: in Bengal, the price of labour is rather lower in the lower parts, and increases as you go to the northward and EAST-lNblA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 53 and westward; at Madras and at Bombay, where grain is considerably Major- General dearer than it is in Bengal, the price of labour is considerably higher. Alexander Krjd. So that difference does not indicate any difference in the comfort or con- dition of the labourer ? — No, not at all • it is totally regulated by the price of provisions. Can you state whether, during the Jong period of your residence in India, the number of half cast has increased, and in what degree ? — To a very great degree indeed; so much so, that there are now in Calcutta established a vast number of seminaries for the education of both males and females j I should think, they have increased within these thirty years ten-fold* Have you formed any opinion of the actual amount of the half cast ? — I cannot make a calculation of it at all- You mentioned hnving been employed at the works at Allahabad ; were you ever further to the north than Allahabad ?-— A great deal further north than that ; I was employed by government about four years ago to put down a detachment on the banks of the Sutledge at Ludhiana. What is the nature of the climate ? — It is exceedingly cold for four or five months in the year; the hot season extremely hot, with hot winds; the rains are abundant ; the three seasons are the same as in other parts of the country, but probably two of them (the hot and cold) are more severe. During the colder season, is it not your opinion that the coarser manu- facture of woollens might be introduced amongst the natives? — By no manner of means ; they have a mode of quilting cotton in cheap calicoes, that makes a garment equally warm with any thing of woollen, and much-- cheaper, in which they are universally dressed in the cold season. Does that manufacture extend to the Northward of Oude, as well as to the Seik Country ? — It is a garment composed of the common coarse cotton cloth doubled, with cotton quilted between ; in all the districts in the North of India, this coarse cloth is manufactured at an astonishing cheap rate. 1 would wish to state the cheapness of cloth; one hundred yards ot coarse cloth is very frequently bought for about five rupees, that is about eight or nine shillings. Are you acquainted with the mode in which the commerce of the country "V 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THH Major -General country is conducted in the interior of India ? — Not much; I have not Alexander Kyd. paid much attention to it. Do not you know that the Company have establishments of commercial residents ? — They have, in all the provinces, for making up their own goods. Do not you know that, for a great length of time, those have not only purchased for the Company, but for themselves ? — I have always under- stood that the commercial residents purchased for the Company cloths of a superior kind; that the inferior cloths, that were unfit for the Company's use, they were permitted to purchase on their own account. Do you mean that the commercial resident, provided he supplied the Company with what it wished, was limited in his purchase to any parti- cular species of manufacture ? — After having completed the Company's investments of cloths, I imagine they were permitted to purchase what- ever they pleased of any kind. From your observation in India of the respect in which those commer- cial residents are held by the natives, do you believe that any free trader could purchase, till they had purchased on their account what they chose to have ? — I do not think they could, till the Company's invest- ments were completed : if I understand the matter right, the Company's agents at the factories make advances and engagements to the manufac- turers, I believe very liberal ones ; and until these engagements were fulfilled, of course they could supply no one else. But is not the commercial resident regarded with such awe by the natives,that it is impossible for any tree trader, resorting to that country, to acquire a commodity, as long as the commercial resident wishes himself to purchase it? — I think he has an advantage over every other trader, from the influence he necessarily must have ; but I do not believe that other traders are prevented from making purchases. From your observation of the character of the native, supposing there is a tree trade to British subjects to India; supposing there is even free access to British subjects to every part of India ; do you think that if the commercial resident chooses to say, I must have such a quantity of such a commodity beyond what is necessary for the Company, that any free trader would be able to be supplied with any commodity till he is satisfied ? — I have before said that the commercial resident has certainlv an advantage ; but v. n ; EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 55 but I do not think in general it has been used, or ever will be used, to keep Major -General the free trader out of the market. Alexander Kyd. Do you know no instance in India of traders being disappointed in the acquisition of commodities, till the commercial resident was satisfied ?— I dare say it was only till the manufacturers had made good their engage- ments to him, and to the Company. But do not you know that, from the awe in which the natives stand of the commercial resident, that there are instances where the price of a commodity even has been dictated by the commercial resident ? — No, I am not acquainted with it ; I think, on the contrary, that from all I have observed or have heard, the Company's civil servants are most lenient and indulgent in the treatment of the manufacturers ; such is their universal character. Have you not often heard it stated by persons in India, by persons con- versant with the subject, that the native weavers, for instance, if they had it in their power, would rather treat with the free traders than with the Company ?— The low manufacturers there, are like the generality of the lower orders of people, they are very apt to take advances from one party, and then wish to sell their goods to another ; that I believe is the character of the lower class of manufacturers every where. For the mode in which the Company's business in the interior is con- ducted, the resident makes advances r — Yes. Has that always been the case ? — I believe it has always been the case ; but I beg leave to say, this is a subject I really am but little acquainted .with, it is entirely out of my line. When did you leave India ?— I left India a little more than three years j 1 have been here near three years. You perhaps know whether the Americans did not carry on a consi- derable trade at Calcutta while you were there ? — They did, principally in Calcutta. Do you know whether they sent into the country for the purchase of the articles that they exported, or whether they bought them at Calcutta ? —No, I believe they principally bought them at Calcutta ; they had native agents in Calcutta that bought for them. And 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major-General And they found there a sufficiency of the articles they wanted, without Alexander Ki/d. resorting to the interior of the country ? — Abundance, J believe. Do you happen to recollect whether there was any complaint of their making any disturbances when they were there? — Not of the captains; I have heard the common complaints against sailors, when on shore, getting drunk and iraking disturbances, as every other sailor will do ; but the police of Calcutta is very strict, and no evil can arise there from such occurrences of Europeans. Would not a trade with the port of London only, have the powers of check and regulation more perfect, by being immediately under the eye of government and of the Company, than in the case of the trade being opened to the outports? — I should think certainly it would be regulated with more ease. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then THOMAS GRAHAM, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : Thos. Graham, f% Counsel.) How long have you been in the service of the East-India Esq. Company ? — From the year 1769 to the year 1808, in India. ->r- In what part of that country has your residence been ? — Principally in Bengal. What stations have you filled ? — I have filled all the successive stations in the service. How long were you member of Council ? — I was member of council for eight months during the government of Lord Cornwallis, and eight months during the government of Lord Wellesley. Have you had ample opportunities of studying the character of the native Indians f — I certainly have. Are their habits, generally speaking, of a fixed and unchangeable nature ? — They certainly are. Are their prejudices so likewise ?— Equally so. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. &7 Are they persons of quick sensibility ? — Very quick sensibility in all T/tos. Graham, matters concerning their religion. - fc.sq. Are they persons who are quick and jealous of affront with respect to their women : — Certainly they are, very much so. Is the Company very strict and peremptory in its injunctions, with regard to the respect which should be paid by their servants to those habits and prejudices to which you allude ? — They are particularly so. Generally speaking, is the Company's authority of so strict a nature as to preserve them from such affront with regard to those prejudices which you have been speaking of? — With the servants of the Company it is considered as a duty to be careful not to offend their religious prejudices. Generally speaking, is there so general attention paid to their habits and feelings as not to wound the one or affront the other ?— Certainly. The Company's servants generally enter their service at a very early period of life ? — They do generally. Do they in general very soon obtain a knowledge of the language of the inhabitants sufficient for all the purposes of communication ? — Their duties render it indispensably necessary that they should acquire that knowledge, in order to render them competent to a due discharge of their official employment. Do they, generally speaking, soon obtain a due proficiency for all pur- poses in that language ? — No doubt they do. Does this knowledge of their language enable them more successfully to consult the feelings and prejudices and habits of the natives ? — It affords them an opportunity of learning it even from the natives themselves, and induces a caution of offending against them. Are offences sometimes otherwise committed through ignorance ? — Yes, very often ; very important offences are committed through igno- rance. The Company's servants by being thus taught, are so much better qualified to guard against that species of ignorant offence ? — I have no doubt of it. I Supposing -v— £>9 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Graham, Supposing- a considerable and indiscriminate influx of Europeans, in Esq. consequence of an open trade from every port in the United Kingdom to v — — v— — ' every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, what political or other consequences would you apprehend from such increased and indis- criminate influx ? — I do not conceive that it would be practicable for the regulators of the government there to restrain them from those communi- cations which might lead to commotion. Will you describe the kinds of communication which you apprehend might lead to such commotion ? — The trespasses which they might commit upon their religious prejudices. Are there not many ports on either coast of the peninsula at a great distance from the principal seats of government ? — 1 believe there are manv. J At about what distance do you suppose some of them ?"—■ -Some hundreds of miles no doubt. Would it be necessary in your opinion, for the new adventurers to settle themselves or their agents in houses and factories, for the purposes of carrying on the trade to which they would thus be allowed access?— It would be indispensably necessary, in case they did not employ the agency of those who are already settled there. Under the strict authority which is at present observed, is it more usual to employ such resident agents, than for persons to be their own factors and agents? — At present it certainly is. If any material influx were to take place, regarding the licence which has been described of their visiting every port upon either coast of the peninsula, do you apprehend it would be probable, or even possible, to keep such persons in a state of such strict controul and coercion, as to prevent them from going to the interior if such be their object ? — I do not think that it would be practicable. Supposing them to make their way into the interior, what consequences do you apprehe id from that description of migration ? — The conduct they are likely to observe, might be offensive to the natives and excite animosity which might end in commotion. Supposing *Y* mm ™ — ^ EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFtfAIttS. 5l) Supposing the native now to be treated with violence or oppression by Thos. Graham, an European, can he prosecute such an European but in one of the three Esq. courts of Calcutta, Madras, or Bombay ? — He certainly cannot, and ihey *- are the only courts in which he could obtain redress for any acts of violence committed by an European, meaning British subjects. At present, are not a vast proportion of the natives situated at the distance of even some hundred miles from either of those courts? — -Some under the government of the Company at present, as far as a thousand miles. Speaking of the mass of the population of the natives, about how much are they capable of earning per week or month ? — Their wages in general are very low, and for labour alone ; it differs in different parts of the country, but the common standard in those parts where I have been is about two rupees a month, or five shillings. Do you apprehend then it would be possible, however great might be the degree of violence or oppression, for a native to tollow up the prosecution of a British subject in either of those courts ?— He has not any means, and the only mode to which he could resort for assistance would be to the government itself. Supposing that Europeans, in consequence of the suggested opening of the trade, should become subject to the native or provincial courts, what effect do you suppose that that sort of subjection might have upon the opinion of the natives, with regard to British superiority ? — For the better understanding of the question, it must be previously, understood that none of the native courts exist in any other form than under servants of the Company. But the persons composing those courts are natives, are they not ?— The law officers are properly the officers of the court, the rest are subsi- diary establishments for keeping the records of the court. Are foreign European subjects liable to those courts ? — Thty are liable to be tried by the laws of the country. As those courts are now constituted, could it be practicable to try a British subject, except by the laws of the country ? — A British subject is not amenable to those courts further than in civil suits with the natives, and that under a penalty bound to abide the decision of the court as far as I 2 500 rupees, '60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE 7'hos. Graham, 500 rupees, which they enter into, upon permission to go into the interior Esq. of the country, and it is recorded in the supreme court of Calcutta, I believe, for the purpose of enabling the Company to recover the penalty. Are you to be understood, that in cases of personal injury, the British European subject is only amenable to one of the three courts ? — Only amenable to one of those three courts, liable to be apprehended by a justice of the peace, where the offences are committed, and all the Company's servants acting as magistrates, are under an oath as justices of the peace, taken at the supreme courts of judicature, to qualify themselves lo exercise the duties of a justice of the peace. Generally speaking, would the native have it in his power to attend those courts for the purpose of prosecuting the party ? — From any means which he himself possesses, I can decidedly say that he could not in general, for those offences generally happen among the inferior orders of the natives. Supposing a material increase of Europeans, and that from want of capacity the natives should be thus disappointed in obtaining legal redress, what do you apprehend might be the consequence ? — That they would redress themselves upon the offending party. Supposing legal redress to be practicable, and the punishment of the European a consequence, what do you apprehend with regard to the European character, should such punishments become frequent ? — Every occurrence which might render such punishments necessary would tend greatly to degrade the character of the Europeans, and the respect of which it has hitherto been held. Do you apprehend the maintenance of that character and that opinion ..jential to the maintenance of the British authority in India? — I think most important to the permanency of our possessions in India. If any material number of these hew adventurers or settlers were to misconduct themselves, would it be conveniently practicable to the government, regarding the line of coast to which they would have access, to send them back to England, and is not that a punishment now only resorted to in extreme cases ? — I believe the government of India have had that power given to them, and the exercise of it is often rendered exceedingly difficult, by the means which the offending party may have adopted essent EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 61 adopted of resorting to the courts of judicature, to prevent their being Thos. Graham, sent to England. E sc l- " < v ' I ask therefore in the case of increased instances of misconduct, would that be a measure which the government could conveniently resort to? — Certainly not. Looking to the nature of either coast, and to the ports to which they will row have access, do you think the British subjects, if they were so disposed, could find their way to the courts of the native princes ?— 'I think they might. Do vou think, in that case, they might receive open or secret encourage- ment from the native chiefs ? — I am not aware that any previous encou- ragement would be given to them by the native chiefs ; but I have no doubt, after their arrival under their protection, that they might intrigue to the prejudice of our interests in India. Concluding upon the trade to India being opened from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, and looking to all the circumstances respecting the natives, which you are able to judge of from your experience, do you think that so opening the trade is consistent with the safety of the British empire in India? — I do conceive that the promiscuous intercourse which such an unrestrained in- troduction of Europeans to India would occasion, would be attended with the most dangerous consequences to the safety of our possessions in India. Looking to the general habits of the natives, as well as to the degree of export that has for many years past existed, and now exists, do you think that thus opening the trade to India would increase the consumption of European articles among the natives of India ? — I have no idea that it would ; their habits are so different from the use of any articles of that description, that I think it almost impossible that it should. Have the natives at present a power, of purchasing European articles were they so disposed ? — They certainly have, and have long had at the principal settlements of the Company. Generally speaking, is it in their power, from the wages they derive,to purchase articles of that description ? — 1 do not think that it is ; what is required for their own wants is so limited, and procured at so easy a price, that 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T/ios. Graham, that they neither could nor would purchase European articles such as they Esq. might use, being much dearer. In cases where the natives possess the means, does their inclination or practice lead them to the purchase of European articles ? — Very few in- deed, principally confined to the most opulent at the principal settlements -of the Company. In cases of opulence, where unconnected with the European govern- ment, is it their practice to indulge in European articles ? — By no means. Speaking of the natives in general, at present, can you state about the .expence of their dress ? — Speaking of the large population of India, I do not suppose that the expence of dress for the whole year could exceed two shillings, or two and sixpence. About what proportion do you think those who can afford to purchase European dress, if so disposed, bear to the general population ? — I sup- pose not one in five thousand, excepting at the principal settlements of £he Company. At the principal settlements, is there any actual number that direct their superfluous property towards the purchase of European articles ? — Very few indeed. Is it not your belief, from their general nature and habits, that should even their means increase, they would so direct their expenditure ? — I do not think they would. The Committee have spoken of the articles of dress ; have they wants with respect to furniture, or any other domestic articles, that you suppose they would indulge towards European articles, supposing it to be in their power ?■ — I do not think they would to any extent. Do you know whether the export trade from this country to India through the medium of the captains and officers together, privileged or private trade, has been upon the whole for some years past a profitable or a losing concern ? — At least for the last ten years of my residence in India, it had been a very unproductive one. Have not those who carry on what is called the privilege trade, namely, the captains and officers, a very great advantage, by being allowed to carry freight EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. C3 freight free, and from acting as their own supercargo ? — They no doubt Tfios. Graham, have. Esq. Is the saving hereby effected a considerable proportion, or otherwise, of the whole of the commodity ? — That will depend upon the value of the privilege which they enjoy ; but it is consistent with my own knowledge, that for many years they have been obliged to resort to public auction for the purpose of disposing of their goods, so as to make them some return, instead of leaving them to decay in cellars. Have European articles, within your observation for some years past, been in a state of glut at the Indian markets, or otherwise ? — Certainly, far beyond the demand for European consumption. Can you contemplate any possible increase of demand for European ar- ticles which might not be amply supplied by the present system, and as cheaplv as in the nature of things such commodities would admit of being sold ? — If the bulk of the present supplies selling in general under prime cost is any evidence, the price would rather diminish than increase were the supplies increased. During your residence in the service of the Company, arid in the high : stations which you have described, have you had an opportunity of know- ing whether the East India Company have or have not used its utmost ex- ertions to increase the purchase of British manufactures m India ? — As far as facilitating the mission of it to India in their own shipping, so far they certainly have given every encouragement. Are you acquainted with the fact, that such articles as themselves are ex- porters of, they have exported at a known loss, in order to assist the ma- nufacturer here, in the hope of ultimately establishing the article there? — Every facility is given for the purchase of the manufactures which the Company are obliged to export under the act of Parliament to traders in India, inasmuch as they are sold at public auction, and at such prices as the state of the market may give ; but in general the prices have been so inadequate, that I have known the sales of the Co.-.pany put off on ac- count of their being so much below the prices which they cost, and evi- dently shewing there is nogreat demand for the consumption of these things. From the nature of the intercourse in India, have the natives in the in*- terior at present an opportunity of purchasing European articles wtre they so disposed ?— They have, no doubt ; for, from every part of the country, there 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Graham, there are agents on their parts at the principal settlements, who may buy Esq. them- for them in the manner before described, and send them to them in 1 y— — ' the interior. Assuming that the exports from this country to India have increased during some years past, how do you account for the consumption of those exports, unless the consumption is increased among the natives ? — I do not iprehend that the increased export has been the occasion of tfrere being any demand with the natives ; such part as may not have obtained a sale, is generally left in warehouses, and often disposed of, for I may say fifty per cent, under the prime cost in this country. Do you mean that as to the use or consumption of them, that that has been by the increased number of European residents ? — Any increase that might take place, of course would be occasioned from that cause. Do you, or not, impute any increased consumption to the natives ? — I certainly do not. (Examined by the Committee.) During the time, and particularly during the latter part of the time you were resident in India, had not the American trade very much increased at Calcutta ? — No doubt they have come in greater numbers to Calcutta than formerly ;. they always brought their specie to pay for goods which they were in the habits of procuring from the British agents settled in Calcutta, and their agents. *6' They have no intercourse with the interior for the purpose of carrying on that trade ? — They have no intercourse with the interior for the pur- pose of carrying on that trade. Did they always bring specie or produce ? — They could bring no other articles that would command a sale. Were not they frequently supplied with the goods they wanted for their investments from the native merchants? — Certainly, several of the native merchants have turned their views to such demands ; but they are not in the habits of keeping any in warehouses, with any distant view of spe- culation. Can you state any reason why a British merchant permitted to trade to Calcutta -*v~' EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. <35 Calcutta might not carry on his commerce in the same way r— They Thos. Graham, could not obtain goods without having previously instructed agents there Esq. to provide them from the interior of the country. Did the Americans previously instruct agents ? —They had some agents there of their own, independent of employing British agents resident at the stations. Were their agents resident at Calcutta ? — They were resident at Cal- cutta. If the trade was opened from the outports of Great Biitain and Ireland to India, and the import confined to the port of London, do you con- ceive that any additional danger would arise in India from opening the trade from thence to some of the outports as well as to the port of Lon- don ? — I do not conceive that any additional danger would be occasioned in India by such permission. Do you think that the opening the export trade from the outports of the United Kingdom will be exempt from inconvenience and even dan- ger to the government in India? — I think in my preceding answers to questions of similar import I have already said, that danger would arise; I conceive that both danger and inconvenience would arise, in as far as it would facilitate a promiscuous intercourse of Europeans with the native subjects in India. Supposing the trade opened from this country to India with the prin- cipal settlements and principal ports, do you not conceive that the exist- ing powers of government are sufficient to prevent an improper influx of Europeans into the interior? — Provided they are under the same restric- tions as at present are exercised over the residents now at the principal settlements in India, I conceive they would. Are not those powers sufficient to controul the behaviour of any of the Europeans that should be suffered to go into the interior of the country ? —Certainly, as they exist beyond the limits of the supreme court of ju- dicature, they would not be sufficient. Persons are licensed at present to go up the country, are they not ? — They are. Are the existing powers of government sufficient to controul their be- K haviour 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T/iot. Graham, haviourso as to prevent any evil effects arising to the permanency of the Esq. British empire in India? — I do not conceive that the powers which the government can now exercise in the interior, are equal to prevent bad consequences arising from any numerous body of Europeans settling be- yond the limits of the supreme courts of judicature. Are not the powers of government, already existing, sufficient to de- vise other regulations as may be requisite for this purpose? — I am afraid not over the British subject, who will always consider himself entitled to the government by the laws as he enjoys them in this country. Persons going up the country are either Company's servants, or licensed or unlicensed persons ; have not the Company complete controul through their local governments over the first ? — They certainly have over the servants of the Company, because they may recal them from their station, and they may suspend them from their service, and send them home to Europe for any improper conduct. With respect to the licensed residents, have not the local governments the power of withdrawing such licences? — The withdrawing such li- cences would be alone insufficient; the only means by which they could render their authority sufficient, would be by calling the persons, or forcing the persons, down from the settlements to Calcutta. Do they not at present possess that power? — Not a discretionary power, inasmuch as they could not seize the person of the European, and send him down to Calcutta, unless he had been guilty of some offence. But being guilty of such offence, the local governments possess such a power ? — He then is apprehended and sent clown to Calcutta for the purpose of being prosecuted in the supreme court. With respect to the unlicensed persons reading in the interior, do they not possess the same power with respect to them ? — As far as the inter- diction goes against persons proceeding into the interior without permis- sion, they are liable to be apprehended, but no punishment can be in- flicted upon them in the interior of the country. The governor in council, however, has the power of sending those par^ ties to Europe, has he not? — At present, I believe, the government have that power but the consequence in all probability would be ruinous to- the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 6? the individual, and he would feel himself entitled to claim redress after Thos. Graham, arrival in this country. Esq. But the governor, in sending him home, would be exercising an au- thority which is considered to be in his hands? — The individual might conceive the law had been transgressed in his case, and certainly would feel himself at liberty to have recourse to the courts of judicature here for redress. When you were in the supreme council at Bengal, would not it have been considered that a magistrate in the interior of the country would have been guilty of a neglect of his duty, if upon a well founded com- plaint against an European, on the part of a native, for oppression or ill- usage, he had not sent that man down to Calcutta, or reported him to the presidency ? — He certainly would, as a magistrate, have considered it his duty to inquire into the nature and extent of the complaint ; and if it was of such a nature, as that it was not in his power, by any direction to refrain from such offences in future, to grant redress, he would be under the necessity of sending him down to Calcutta, to be prosecuted in the supreme court of judicature. What is the nature of the danger which you apprehend would arise in India from an unrestrained intercourse of trade with this country?— What I should most apprehend from the promiscuous intercourse, would be, trespassing upon the religious prejudices ; which of all others the natives are most tenacious of. If the export trade of this country should be opened to India, compre- hending three or four thousand miles of coast, with innumerable ports or creeks where vessels might trade, will it be possible to regulate that trade ? — I am afraid, without the persons were raid under some restrictions previously to their leaving this country, it would be altogether impossible to regulate their conduct, inasmuch as that the courts of judicature are so remote from any of the ports into which they "would import, that the danger might have arisen previous to the case being even known to those authorities. Does it appear to you that any possible laws could pass in this country that could regulate all that coast, or keep them under any restraint ? — I am not sufficiently conversant with the nature of the restrictions which it might be necessary to impose upon British subjects, previous to leaving this country, to be able to state what they ought to be. K 2 Is GS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE TUs. Graham, U it your opinion that many or most of the vessels going irregularly to Esq. that coast, would be disappointed in their expectation of regular com- v ^ i mercial advantages ? — I have no doubt that they would be disappointed, perhaps to the extent of their whole speculation. Is it your opinion that under these desperate circumstances it might not lead to their becoming piratical ? — Men who are destitute of the means of subsistence, which they might be in the case supposed, might resort to illegal means, in order to maintain themselves. You have stated you apprehend much inconvenience upon the point of religion ; do you apprehend no other inconvenience, from drunkenness or interference with women, for instance ?— I have already said they are extremely jealous of any thing being offered towards their women, the Hindoos in particular. In case of an unrestricted intercourse of trade, what political danger do you apprehend? — I apprehend that if danger arises in the one case, it would lead to consequences destructive of the permanency of the British empire in India. In what way ? — By those offences exciting general commotion, and from the immense disproportion between the governors and governed, placing them in a manner beyond controul. Have not we now either residents or agents at all the native courts ? — I believe we have. Do not you know that those native courts have by treaty stipulated not to allow any Europeans to remain there without the permission of our government ? — I have no recollection of the provisions in the treaties, but I think it would be a very politic measure to prevent it. The Witness is directed to withdraw. It being then proposed to adjourn this Committee till to-morrow ; The same is agreed to, and ordered accordingly. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 6*9 Mercury, die 7° Aprilis 1813. The Earl of Buckinghamshire in the Chair Order of adjournment read. The Counsel are called in. The proceedings of this Committee yesterday are read. Then Lieutenant Colonel THOMAS MUNRO is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) You are now in the service of the East India Company? Lieut. Colonel —I am now in the military service of the East India Company. Munro. At Madras ? — At Madras, How long have you been in that military service of the Company ?— About thirty years. During the course of that time, you have resided in many different parts in the interior of the country as well as at Madras ?— I have resided on both coasts ; Coromandel and Malabar, and Mysore. Were not you also employed by the Government of Madras, in settling the districts ceded by the Nizam ? — I was so employed. Have you, by residing at so many different places in the interior of the peninsula, had great opportunities of observing the characters and habits of the natives ? — I have had great opportunities, I think, of observing the character and habits of the natives, from having been constantly among 70 MINUTBS OF EVIDENCE ON THE ■Lieut, Colonel among them, and very often without seeing an European for ten or twelve Munro. months. Is the Committee to understand from the last answer, that in many parts of the interior there are few Europeans, and the natives have very little communication with Europeans ? — In many parts of the interior they have very little communication with Europeans, except in the places where there are European regiments of Infantry. Have you from your experience and observation found that the natives of Hindostan generally are extremely attached to their own habits and fashions, and prejudices ? — I think they are extremely attached to all their ancient habits and customs ; I imagine there has been no change in them since we first had any record of them in history. Then are you of opinion, from all your observations and all the know- ledge you have acquired from any source, that the Indians are pecu- liarly unchangeable in their opinions and habits ? — I do not think that they are unchangeable absolutely, but they are as far unchangeable as any thing human can possibly be ; 1 imagine that all the intercourse with Europeans has hitherto produced no sensible change in any of their cus- toms or opinions. (By a Lord.) You speak of the interior of the country ? — I speak of the natives of all parts of the country, except a few immediate dependents or domestics of Europeans upon the coast. (By Counsel.) When you were sent out by the government of Ma- dras into the interior, for the purpose of regulating the ceded districts, did you find that part of the country in a very irregular state with respect to government ? — I found it in a state of great anarchy, from the disso- lution of all government ; and from the government of the Nizam hav- ing been too weak tocontroul its different feudatories, most of them were in rebellion. How long were you in that part of the country for that purpose ?-— Seven years; from 1800 till 1S07. During that time were the ceded districts reduced in a great measure to a state of order and good government, at least comparatively? — They were reduced to a state of good government. Is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR?. 71 Is it your opinion, that it is necessary for the Government of Madras to Lieut. Colonel be peculiarly cautious as to the persons they send into the districts so Munro. situated, I mean districts recovered from a state of anarchy into a com- *— — y »— '- pjrative state of order, in order to prevent their falling back, to the state in which they were first ? — I think it is necessary they should pay great attention in selecting men to send into districts which have been in that situation. If a free trade were open to India, and Englishmen were allowed af their pleasure to peivade the interior parts of India, and to reside there for the purposes of commerce, what do yoa think would be the conse- quence of such Englishmen so residing in a part of the country situated as that is which has been just described ? — I am not exactly sure that I un- derstand that question ; does it apply only to the interior of such coun- tries as have been mentioned ? The Committee confine their question to countries situated as those are which have been just mentioned, videlicet, ceded districts that had been in a state of confusion, arid have lately been reduced to good government and order ? — I think the general intercourse of Europeans with such a country would certainly be productive of very bad consequences. Win you state what are the bad consequences you would apprehend from the residence of European traders in such districts ? — I think that it would a great deal depend upon the character of the men who resided there ; men carried from Europe would have one effect, others that had been settled on the coast, and acquired some knowledge of the customs and manners of the natives before they came into the interior, would pro- duce a different effect. What effects do you think are likely to result from each of those classes of men residing in the interior of the country? — I think that men re- cently arrived from Europe, without any knowledge of the language or manners of the people, would be too much accustomed to exercise acts of violence to their religious and civil feelings and prejudices, and by that means to excite discontent at, and occasion constant affrays and appeals to, the authorities established there. If any violences were committed by such persons upon the natives, would it not be extremely difficult for them to obtain any adequate re- dress ? — I should think that even the granting them adequate redress would not exactly remove the causes of discontent. Would 7'-J MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Colonel Would it not be difficult for them to obtain adequate redress r — I dy Muttro. not think there would be much difficulty in their obtaining redress, be- * v — — J cause the magistrate on the spot would have the proper authority for granting that redress : still the repetition of such acts would excite dis- content among the inhabitants against the Government. You have answered the last question upoa a supposition that the magis- trates in that part of the country have a criminal jurisdiction, in order to redress such violence ? — Yes ; I certainly think, that though discontent may not break out into any open acts of rebellion, that the Government itself in such cases is always in some danger at some time or other. Are you of opinion, that the European character would, by the con- duct of such persons, be probably degraded in the eyes of the natives ? — I think that the European character would, by the conduct of such persons, suffer very materially ; for I conceive, that the high respect that the natives feel for the European character is one of the main pillars of our government. You have stated, that you are well acquainted both with the coasts and with the interior of the peninsula; I would ask you whether there are not still some parts which are entirely in the possession of the native powers, and not subject to any controul of the Company, I mean such parts as Gheriah ?— On the Malabar coast there is a tract of territory from Goa northward to Bombay, over which the Company have no controul ; it is subject to the Mahratra government. Are there not also in the interior of Hindostan still some independent states that have no treaties with the Company? — There are no great independent states in the interior, exceptsuch as have treaties with the Company; there are some smaller petty states of very little consequence that have no treaties with them; but those are again, almost all, tributaries of the greater states. If it were the wish of any Europeans to get into the interior of the country, for purposes hostile to the English government, or for intrigue with the natives, and a free trade were opened with India, do you think that there would be any impediments to such persons getting into the interior, supposing a free trade to be opened with England r — I think they could not get into the interior of the country if the magistrates did their duty in any part of the Company's possessions ; they could only get EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 73 get into the interior where the Company had no authority, by landing Lieut. Colonel there and passing through the Marhatta territories; no European upon Munro. landing can pass into the interior of the country in any part of the * — — v— ' Company's possessions without a passport ; if he has no passport, he will be taken up as a deserter ; there are rewards given for the apprehen- sion of deserters, which make the natives alert ; and the village police in India, I apprehend, in the apprehension of those men, is much more active and intelligent than any police in this country. Would then any material impediments prevent such persons from getting into the interior of the country, if they landed at a port not under the Company's government I— There could be no means of pre- venting their getting into the interior if they landed on the coast where it was not subject to the controul of the Company ; but that part of the coast is little frequented by vessels of any description, scarcely ever by vessels in which there are any Europeans, but by some small vessels employed in the coasting trade, a little larger than boats. Might I beg to explain, with respect to a former question put to me about European merchants wishing to get into the interior ; when I spoke of European merchants lately arrived from Europe committing acts of violence against the inhabitants and natives, I did not mean to confine my remark entirely to merchants, I extend it to all Europeans, civil and military, Company's .servants and King's : when they first land, from their ignorance of the manners of the natives, from seeing them apparently so mild, they are apt to treat them with contempt, and to commit acts of outrage that they would not do in their own country: they consider themselves in India as .part of a nation of conquerors, and they are very apt to act as such in their own persons. From your knowledge of the natives of Hindostan, are you of opinion, that if a free trade w r ere sanctioned by law between this country and India, there would be any considerable increase among those natives of the demand for British commodities or manufactures ? — I do not think there would be any material increase of the demand now existing for Euro, pean manufactures and commodities; I think that some small increase would arise from the gradual increase of population, but I think none from a change in the customs or the taste of the natives themselves. In your last answer, do you mean by increase of population, increase of European population or natives ? — Both ; there would be an increase of articles now consumed by Europeans, in proportion to the increase of European establishments, and those trifling articles which the inhabitants L now 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lint!. Cokuel now take would likewise have a proportionate increase with their popu- A.'wito. lation ; but I $&& no signs among the natives of any increasing demand I v ' fur our commodities: I think that when I went to India, and when I left ir, a period of twenty eight years, theie was scarcely any variation I th-ink* the cause of- thai does not exactly arise from what we call high prices, but from causes that are more permanent than the rate of the prices. It arises from the influence of climate, from the manners of the people, from the great skill of their own manufacturers ; if it was entirely occasioned by high prices, we should see a greater demand among the rich in proportion to their means. I do not see that that demand, as n:\o\tt be expected, is greater nearer to the source of supply, and lessening gradually as the natives are removed from it. I think that the demand is just as little at the source of supply as in the interior of the country. There are two great sources of expenditure in this country which cannot apply to India at all, these are the expences of the table, and the furni- ture 'of the house ; ihe Hindoo has no table, he tats al .ne upon the bare ground, and generally in the open air: the whole equipment that he has for that purpose is perhaps an earthen platter or a small brass bason ; and as far as furniture is concerned, he may be said to have no house, for his house contains hone. The house of a Hindoo is generally built of mud "Walls with a mud floor, without any kind of furniture; he may have a small mat to lie upon, and a lamp to burn at night; aga n, those articles which be wishes for food his own country supplies, all his clothing it supplies in much greater beauty and variety than any thing we can furnish him wuh. Are vou of opinion that in the colder parts of the country, there ig any probability of introducing to any grc.t extent the use of English woollen manufactures? — If we could furnish our woollen manufactures as cheap as the natives can furnish their own, there would be a very con- siderable demand, because there is hardly a native of India that does not ■tise woollen. 1 never knew a native who had not a large piece of coarse woolien of their own manufacture, which they use as the Highlanders of Scotland do a plaid ; they sleep upon ir, they wrap it about them when they i ravel; but it is so much cheaper than our manufactures, that I am afraid our woollens can never come into competition with it; there must be a very great improvement in our machinery for manufacturing woollen before we can posdbly sell our woollen in India. Of the coarser kind of Indian woollen, which is usually worn by the peasantry and the lower cLsses of the people, as much as a man requires to cover him, a piece of about seven feet long by four or five broad, is sold for about two shillings; but that i 3 the coarsest kind : the finer kind is as fine as the boat cloaks are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7o are commonly made here. This is of a much larger size, about ten feet Litvt. Cohnef long by five or six wide ; it sells at from twenty to twenty five shillings. Munro. Do natives of high rank and wealth in that country, who have inter- course with Europeans, sometimes purchase European commodities? — Very few of the natives of high rank ever purchase them from any wish of their own ; it is generally such of them as associate with Europeans, who do if, I believe, out of compliment to their European visitors; but that custom does not extend, it does not increase,. The man who purchases them is never much respected by his own countrymen or by Europeans either; what the father purchases is perhaps cast aside by the son, or thrown into a lumber room. Do you happen to know that Tippoo Sultaun was in possession of a great quantity of European commodities ? — He was in possession of a great variety of European articles sent to him from France and other places ; but he did not employ them in the decoration of his house ; most of them were found lying in a large lumber room, many of them unpacked. According to your observation, did the market for European commo- dities in every part of India, while you were there, appear to you to be adequate to the demand for them ? — The market is perfectly adequate to the demand ; there is no obstruction to the supply in every part of India. I never was in any large village in India, in which European commodities were not exposed for sale, those commodities for which there is a demand; but they are in general trifling, some small pieces of broad cloth, some articles of cutlery, such as scissars, penknives, and perhaps in glass ware a few small looking glasses. Do you think that the present system of commerce with India is fully adequate to the supply of any probable increased demand for British arti- cles among the natives? — I think that the present supply is fully ade- quate to any probable increase of demand. Am I to understand that it is your opinion, that the natives of India, being a manufacturing people, and ingenious in manufactures, are fully adequate to supply any demands that may arise among them themselves? — I think they are fully competent to supply all demands that can arise among themselves, and that the chief cause of the difficulty of exporting our manufactures to advantage for sale in that country is, that we as a manufacturing people are still far behind them# L 1 Are -v 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Colonel Arc they also very quick in learning new arts ?— They are very quick Munro. in learning any new art which they think will be useful to themselves ; « > but there are many arts which we think are useful,, which they have no respect or regard for. (Examined by the Committee.) Do you conceive the authority of the local governments in India suf- ficient to prevent any unlicensed Europeans from residing within the ter- ritories of the Company ? — I think the authority of the local government, as the law now stands, is perfectly competent to that. Do you think, that if any further regulations should be necessary for that purpose, the Government would be competent to enforce them ? — I should think that the Government would be competent to enforce any regulations that were established from this country. Either from this country, or established in the manner in which regu- lations are established in India by themselves ? — Either from this coun- try, or by themselves* Have you ever been in the northern parts of India ? — No, never any where but in the Decan or the Carnatic. Have you ever been in that part of India which they call the cold cli- mate ? — The Mysore climate is as cold as any climate south of Delhi : I believe \- have been there a great while. : You have stated the high opinion you entertain of the perfection of the native police, does that observation apply to the whole of the dominions of the Company equally ? — I do not know, with respect to Bengal ; but I imagine with respect to all parts on the coast of Coromandel and Ma- labar'. You have never been in Bengal, I believe ? — I never was there ; but I imagine that the police, the real Hindoo police, is the same in every part of India; that if the magistrate will direct the police to stop any Euro- peans endeavouring to go into the interior, they will always be successful, and that no one can possibly elude them. Does your observation respecting the police apply generally to its ex- cellence for the prevention of crimes of all descriptions, or merely to the particular Munro. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, W particular point to whicfe you have been adverting, namely the passage of Lieut. Colonel Europeans ? — I think, that the excellence of the police applies to the ap- prehension of offenders of all kinds, as well as to the detention of Euro- *■ peans passing unlicensed through the country. Has it appeared to you to be equally good during the whole of your* residence in India ; or has ir undergone any recent improvements ? — I think it is equally good in all parts of India, where it has not been dis- turbed during the war, by some of the police officers being driven away. Was it equally good when you were first acquainted with India ? — It was equally good when I was first acquainted with it. You state there has been no change in it during your progress in India ; is it meant either for the better or the worse ? — There has been no change in the village police, the Hindoo police ; but in part of the Company's territories they have superadded a police, consisting of hired servants, which I do not think has improved it, rather the contrary. Will you state in what respects it has deteriorated the police, the changes to which you allude ? — There are in every v'llage in India, ac- cording to the ancient Hindoo system, hereditary police officers who hold service lands for their maintenance; those men conduct the police of the / village, protect travellers, and apprehend all offenders ; but in some parts of the Company's territories they have now, besides those hereditary police officers, entertained a large establishment of hired servants, who I think, are quit? superfluous, and who, so far from assisting, rather impede the efficiency of the ancient police establishments. Have you observed any material difference in the condition of the lower classes of the natives, under the native government in which you have resided, and in the dominions of the Company ? — I think that under the dominion of the Company, the condition of the lower classes of the na- tives is certainly much better than it is under that of any native govern- - rnent. Can you state more particularly in what respects the condition of the natives under the Company is better than that of those under the native powers? — '1 he condition of the lower classes of the natives under the Company's government is improved chiefly by their persons being pro- tected, and by their assessments being fixed and known, by their being defended against every exaction except that of the fixed rent of the Go- vernment ; 78 hnXUITS OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut .'Colonel vernment ; under the naive governments they are all subject to arbi- Munro. trary fines, to demands of every kind, which are only limited by their < y ' power of paying them. Is there any difference in their situation with respect to the price of labour ? — With respect to the price of labour, I apprehend there is no great difference under the different governments ; the price of labour is very little more than sufficient for bare subsistence. During my resi- dence in India, I had a great number of statistical tables of the prices of labour drawn up ; but not having brought them to this country, all that I can recollect is the general result of the calculations. Will you state that result ? — I think that the price of labour for ser-* vants in husbandry, is from 5s. to 6s. a month; this is calculated upon the average of a population of two millions. Theie was likewise along with the price of labour an estimate made of the expenditure of each indivi- dual in all the different classes of society, from the highest to the lowest, annually. They were divided at that time into 30 or 40 classes, I think ; bnt I can only remember now the average of the three principal divisions : the first division comprehended all the rich classes and higher casts, of which the average expenditure of eacli individual among them, about three or four hundred thousand individuals, was only 40s. a year; the consumption of each individual among the nvekhing classes, comprehend- ing the whole of the cast of cakivarors and manufacturers, was 27s.; that of the third and lowest class was i8s. The average of the whole three classes was 25s. These calculations were made at different times, and for different purposes, which completely counteracted and checked each other; and I did not find that in the whole course of these investigations any statement ever made the average below 22s. or any above 27s. upon the population of two millions. 1 comprehend in that expenditure every article both of food and clothing, of furniture, and every thing else. Do you foresee any circumstances as likely to occur, that can produce any material alteration in the stare Of society, which you have described ; or do you conceive it to be founded upon permanent and unalterable causes i — I see no cause to expect any great change in the present state of the Hindoo society. It is founded upon their civil and religious institu- ti ns ; and until those change, there can be very little change in their present condition. Have yon been able to form any opinion as to the 1 probability of ex- tending the commercial intercourse with the 'countries surrounding the British EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 79 British possessions in India, principally the countries to the north and to Lieut Colonel the eastward ? — I can only state on that subject from information ; I have Mnnro. had no opportunity of being an ocular witness. But I rather imagine, S y— -— ■* that there could be no great field for the export of our manufactures to those countries ; that the manufacture that would be most in demand there would be our broad cloth ; that the demand for that is in a great measure prevented among the rich by their having shawls, which they prefer, and among the poorer clashes by their own coarse woollen cloths. They have besides woollen, in the cold weather, a kind of quilted silk and cotton which is light; they have it of a variety of colours, which suits their teste much better than our plain colours ; and it likewise has the advantage of washing, and is warm and light. By the prices of labour amounting merely to a bare subsistence, is the Committee to understand that you mean the subsistence of the individual, or the subsistence of the entire family }• — I mean the subsistence of the entire family; the thing is generally understood, and so familiar to me, that I was not aware in explaining it to the Committee, that I should state it so. How is the commerce of the country conducted in the interior of In- dia, is it not conducted by commercial residents ? — It is conducted by commercial residents; but does the question apply to the provision of investments for this country, or the sale of European goods ? Both ? — The provision of investments is conducted in the interior by commercial residents, who make advances to the weavers, and receive the cloth at stated periods in return. Was that always the case in India ? — It was always the case. Have you never heard that there were manufacturers who had a capital of their own, and conducted it without advances formerly ? — On account of the Company. For themselves? — There are many of the native merchants who con- duct it for themselves; but they generally conduct it in the same way that the Company's agents do, by making advances to the poorer weavers: that is always done with a view to profit, because where they make advances they always take care to deduct it with a high interest in the price; but there are many weavers who manufacture without any ad- vances, and sell it in the markets the same as they do in this country or any other. Was "V" 60 "MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE •Lieu!. Colonel ^* a3 not tne number of those weavers who traded on their own capital, Munro. anc ' so ' c ' '' m tne markets formerly greater than they have been of recent i years? — I do not know that they were formerly greater than they are now : I think, the proportion being large or small depends upon the state of tranquillity or war in the country ; ^that after a long peace the number that trade upon their own capital is much greater than it is after rimes of disturbance, when most of their houses have been set on fire, and their .property plundered. Has there not recently been more war in India, than there was in for- mer times? — There has been more of general wars, but I believe less of petty and internal warfare ; and I believe that those wars undei the Com- pany's government have been of shorter duration than they were among -the natives. Do not the commercial residents carry on trade for themselves ?— The commercial residents, I believe, are the only class of the Com- pany's civil servants who are allowed to carry on trade on their own ac- count. Dnot you think that, in the event of a free trade being permitted to .India, a commercial resident of the Company would have a great ad- vantage in making his purchases over any free merchant who should re- sort to the same station ? — He would have that advantage as far as any private merchant would have who had been long accustomed to deal with a particular set of weavers, who would have more confidence in the continuance of the demand from the commercial resident than of that from a new settled merchant. Is there not a degree of awe on the minds of the natives that will lead -them to obey any order given by the commercial resident ? — I do not think that the weavers have any awe with respect to the commercial re- sident at this time : at an early period of the Company's government, when the provision of investment was one of the principal cares of go- vernment, the commercial residents exercised an authority which has long since been put an end to ; and I believe now that a commercial resident has no more authority over the weavers in India, than any mer- chant or master manufacturer has in this country over the people with whom he deals. At what period do you suppose this authority of the commercial resi- dents ceased ? — The last instance I recollect of it was on taking possession of •EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 81 cf a new country in l7g2or 1793, the Barramaul ceded by Tippoo SuU Lieut. Co on.i taun in 17Q2. The weavers during that year, and I think, the succeeding Miuiro, year 17Q3, complained that they were restrained by the commercial resi- dent from working for private merchants ; but orders were at that time, I believe, issued by authority of the government, removing all restraint of that kind ; and I never heard that it was renewed since, and I am con- vinced that it was not. Do you believe that there has not recently throughout India been any authority exercised with a view to fix the price of any commodity pur- chased for the Company ? — I have no reason to think that the government have taken any steps to interfere with the ffee price of commodities in any part of India. Are you aware that if a weaver has taken money in advance from an individual, that he is by the regulations of the government, prevented from working for the government until his contract with the individual is performed ? — I believe that the regulations direct that the person from whom he receives the advance shall be supplied first ; whether it is from the government or an individual, there is no distinction. If unlimited intercourse should be opened with three or four thousand miles of coast in India, with its innumerable ports or creeks where vessels might trade, would it be possible to restrain the disorders that might arise from such a mode of trade ? — I think if vessels are allowed to touch at any other ports than the principal settlements, that it will be subject to great irregularity, that there will be no possibility of restraining the dis- orders of the lower orders of traders and seamen, unless at such places where there is European authority established. Will it be possible for the natives to obtain redress against the oppres- sion or violence of Europeans against the natives, except by going to Calcutta, Madras, or Bombay? — In criminal cases they will obtain no -redress, but by going to the principal settlements; in civil cases they might. Are not many parts of the coast upwards of a thousand miles from either of those three places? — 1 believe that no part of the coast is so 'far as a thousand miles from some one of the presidencies ; but there are, probably, some of the more distant parts of the Bengal territory a thou- sand miles from Calcutta. M Can 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Colonel Can the natives bear the expence of seeking redress, especially at suck Munro. a distance? — I do not think they can support the expence of seeking re- \ — i dress at so great a distance as any of the presidencies. Is it practicable for the India Company to have police establishments at all the ports and creeks where vessels might enter for the purposes of trade ? — I think it is very possible to have them, and that they actually exist now ; that there is a police establishment at every port. Are there no creeks where they might enter for the purpose of illicit trade ? — There is no creek, there is no spot, that is not under the jurisdic- tion of the police of some village or other. Is it your opinion that many or most of the vessels going irregularly to that coast would be disappointed in their expectations of regular commercial advantages ? — I should certainly think that vessels, going to the small ports on the coast, would be disappointed in their expectations, because no goods are prepared or collected at such places. Is it your opinion that the traders, thus disappointed, and in a desperate state, might not be guilty of great violences against the natives, and ultimately, perhaps, become piratical ? — I should not think that they would ever carry their impudence so far as to become pirates ; their dis- appointments might, perhaps, occasion temporary affrays or disputes be- tween them and the natives on the coast where they might land. Is it your opinion that the benefits expected from opening the trade to India from the outports are at least doubtful, and if any advantages can be expected, are they likely to prove permanent? — The only, advantage J can foresee, is the introduction of a great capital into the principal es- tablishments ; it will, certainly, be an advantage to those establishments, whatever it may be to the adventurers themselves. Has the East-India Company better means of introducing our manu- factures in India than private merchants ? — I do not think they have bet- ter means than private merchants. I apprehend that the introduction of our manufactures, whether by the Company or by individuals, must be' through the same channel, through the natives. India is full of mer- chants of all kinds, from the pedlar who carries on his head his goods, to the man who loads a boat with them, or travels with 4 or 500 bullocks loaded with merchandize; they have correspondents in every part of the country, both upon the coast and in the interior; they are as keen and as oun. t>> EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. &S as intelligent, and much more economical than any private English mer- Lieut. Colonel chants possibly can be ; they make no distinction between the commo- Muvro. dities of Europe and those of their own country ; and for whatever arti- ' » ' cle there is a demand they will always carry a supply. Does the certainty of regularity, and the confidence there is in the East-India Comp-.ny, give that Company great advantage in all mercan- tile transactions ? — The character of the East-India Company is certainly very high all over India, but it gives them no other advantage over pri- vate merchants in the transactions with the natives than the permanency and the certainty of the demand which the. Company have for their commodities. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then WILLIAM YOUNG, Esquire, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined, as follows : (By Counsel.) You have been in the civil service of the East- India jy;i/; a)n j Company? — I was. Esq At what time did you go out to India in that service? — I went out in the year 1765. ' How long did you remain in that country ? — Upwards of twenty years ; I left in the month of March 1786. Had you abundant opportunities during that residence of studying the characters, manners, and usages of the natives ? — I had. Are those manners, usages, and characters very dissimilar from the manners, usages, and characters of the British subject in general ? — Per- fectly opposite. What do you conceive would be the effect of an unrestrained inter- course between the natives of -that country and the natives of this ? — I should think it would lead to very dkagreeable consequences. Will you describe in what way you conceive those disagreeable conse- quences would arise ? — I think that they would arise from their interference with the manners, customs, usages, and religious prejudices of the people. M2 Do 8i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Young, Do you speak of the inhabitants of any particular parts of British India, Fsq. or of the inhabitants or that country in general ? — I have seen the inha- i v 1 bitants of most of the different parts of India, but my knowledge is chiefly confined to the inhabitants of Bengal and Bahar, in which country only I was myself a resident. Do you apprehend then, that an unlimited influx of Europeans into that country would produce consequences dangerous to the happiness of the natives and the stability of the British Government ? — I think, that unless very great restrictions indeed were imposed upon them, it would. Can you state whether the European population of the principal settle- ments increased during your stay in India ? — The European population of the presidency certainly did increase very much during the twenty years I was there, but with respect to the provincial situations the increase was not great. Was there any perceptible alteration in the manners or usages of the natives arising from their increased intercourse with Europeans during that time ? — I cannot say that I perceived any material alteration. Was any alteration perceptible within the principal settlements ? — I do not think that there was. Has the use of European commodities increased among the natives of India, within your knowledge ? — There were some few of the natives that certainly did make use of some articles from this country, but those articles were few in number. Do you speak of the inhabitants of the principal settlements, or of the inhabitants of the interior? — I speak of the inhabitants of the principal settlements ; with respect to the inhabitants of the interior, I cannot say that I perceived any increase whatever. Is the Committee to understand that there was some slight increase of demand for European articles atnang the inhabitants of the principal settlements? — I think there was; for example, such articles as looking, glasses, pictures, and perhaps glass ware. lou have stated that some increase of demand took place in those parts or British India, where there was a considerable intercourse between British subjects and the natives. Do you conceive that any considerable increase BAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 85 increase of demand for European manufactures is to be expected in the ^dliam loung, interior of the provinces, unless there shall previously have taken place a E s< -h very extended intercourse between the inhabitants ot that interior and * v ' British subjects ? — I do not myself think that there is any probability of any material increase of British manufactures in India. Supposing that such an increase was under such circumstances to take place, can it take place without an increased intercourse bet veen the natives and British subjects ? — I scarcely know how to answer that ques- tion ; my own opinion is, that the habits, customs, and manners of the people of India are so peculiar, British manufactures are not suited to them. Are yo« acquainted with the state of the regulations for preventing Europeans from pervading the interior of India ? — It is such a length of time since I left India, that I have certainly no immediate opportunity of knowing what those regulations are. It is perhaps within your recollection that the British functionaries in the interior of the country occupy very dispersed and distant points ?•— They do. In order to prevent Europeans from pervading the interior, supposing them disposed to do so, must not the British government in India rely chiefly upon the functionaries in question? — They must rely entirely upon them. Are those functionaries assisted by natives officially employed for that purpose ? — I believe they are, and by natives only. Supposing Europeans to pervade the interior of India in very much in- creased numbers, how far do you conceive that it would be possible for them to do so in spite of regulations to be exercised by the British magis- trates or collectors for the purpose of preventing them? — I think it scarce- ly possible, under any regulations, to prevent Europeans pervading the in- terior part of India by the way of Bengal. Can you state upon what circumstances you found that opinion ? — Upon this, the Ganges for many hundred miles flows through the entire country in the height of the rains, even five hundred miles from the sea ; to my own knowledge it is five miles wide ; there are many collateral streams that communicate with the river in the height of the rains through which people can proceed in boats without observation. There are other methods 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE IVilliani Young, methods- by which people disposed to penetrate through the interior of the country by that channel may likewise proceed ; they may go in boats disguised as boats Occupied by females, and under that disguise I do not think any persons would attempt to search them. I have no doubt that I could myself proceed from Calcutta to Hurdwar in that disguise without obstruction : I know not the exact extent of the Company's dominions to the west at present, but I apprehend there would be no difficulty in pro- ceeding up the Jumna in the same manner. Do you conceive that the natives, officially employed as assistants to the British magistrates stationed throughout the country, might be corrupted or intimidated to permit Europeans to pervade the interior, provided a strong disposition existed on the part of Europeans to do so ? — I think that they might. AVhilc you resided in that country, were the markets in your apprehen- sion sufficiently stocked with European commodities ? — If it is meant bv European commodities, the common articles that were imported by the officers of the Company's ships, generally speaking, there was an abun- dant supply, rare instances have occurred, particularly during the American war, in which those supplies were short ; if by Britijh commodities is. meant articles of British merchandize, 1 believe upon every occasion there was an ample supply. Is it within your knowledge, that the price of labour and the expends of living are very low ? — Thev are. 'o Do you conceive that the cheapness of labour and of living to arise from casual and removeable causes, or from fixed peculiarities in the soil, climate, and produce of that country ? — I conceive it to arise from the natural fertility of the country itself, which produces all the necessaries and comforts of lite, as far as they want them, in great abundance, in an abundance beyond what can be imagined by people who have never been there. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then JOHN STRACEY, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined, as follows : John Stracey, (By Counsel.) Will you acquaint the Committee how long you were Esq. in the service of the East-India Company ? — Between fourteen and fifteen t v > years. When EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 87 When did you go to India ?— In 1791. John Stracey, Esq. In what department of the East-India Company's service were you ? — H In different departments in the judicial, and for some short time as sub-secretary to the government in the secret and political and military departments. In what Presidency ? — In the Bengal Presidency. Were you acquainted with the languages of the country ? — Yes, I was. In what parts of the Bengal provinces have you at different times resided ?— First in Calcutta ; then in the district of Tirhoot in the province of Bahar ; then for three years in Calcutta ; then for three years at Mo- mensing, in the province of Dacca ; then for nearly two years at Cawnpore in the Dooab. During the time of your residence in the Bengal provinces had you an opportunity of making accurate observations upon the character of the natives? — Certainly, as far as they came before me in my public capacity as an officer sitting in an open court of justice. Had you any means of forming an opinion whether if a free trade were enacted between this country and India, and British traders or their agents were permitted to pass and to reside unrestrained through that country, it would have any dangerous effects upon the peace and happiness of the natives? — I should certainly think if British subjects are allowed to go when and where they please, through the different provinces, the greatest injury would arise in every respect ; and if they are to go in an unlimited manner, and to be under no restraint to the different courts established in the provinces, I think they would all of them, or at least most of them, be guilty of the greatest excesses and enormities. If such excesses and enormities were committed, is there any court, except the supreme court at Calcutta, throughout the Bengal provinces, that could punish such offenders? — No, not British subjects, all other ■ subjects are liable to the provincial courts, but British subjects are not ; the only mode of redress that a native having suffered an injury of a criminal nature from a British subject has, is to complain to the magistrate, who having ascertained to the best o! his ability whether such complaint is true, and finding it to be so to his satisfaction, he has power to apprehend the British subject, and to send him down to Calcutta, to be tried by the su- preme -J 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE J< Tin Slracey, preme court, and whatever the distance may be, he must send also the Esq. plaintiff with his witnesses. Do you not believe that if such a state of circumstances were to take place as has been just supposed, it would create great disturbance in the native population against the English government ? — I certainly think it would. Ate you of opinion that if such enormities were committed, they would materially tend to lower the character of the English in the eyes of the natives ? — If they could not obtain redress, I should certainly think it would. Supposing it were practicable to establish provincial jurisdiction in that country, to which the English might be subject, are you of opinion that the frequent punishment of Englishmen by such jurisdiction would tend to degrade the character of the nation in the eyes of the natives? — I think it possibly may ; but that is so general a question, the effect of it I cannot speak to ; I am of opinion that no Europeans should be allowed in the interior of the country, except British subjects, and those British subjects to go under a specific licence from the different governments, as is the case at present. Are you of opinion that if a free trade were opened between this country and India, there would be any material increased demand among the natives of the Bengal provinces for English manufactures? — I really should think not. Are the mass of the population in that country in a condition to purchase them if thev wished for them ?— The price of labour varies greatly in the different parts I was in. In Momensing I think the price of labour, I mean merely of a labouring man, not of art, was not more than a rupee and a half per month ; in Tirhoot, I think it was rather more than two rupees ; and in the Dooab nearly three, or fully three. Did it ever appear to you that among the native inhabitants there was any great taste for European commodities produced by intercourse with Europeans ?— If they could get broad-cloths in different parts of the country extremely cheap they would not only wear but approve of them j and the few that got them, liked them ; but they were not generally worn, nor do I think it was possible for them to obtain them. If EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 89 If there were any increased demand for such commodities in the Bengal John Slraccy, provinces, have they not means under the present system of trade to Esq. obtain them to the full amount that that increased demand might require ? ' * ' ,1 really cannot say whether they can or not ; but judging how things are sold at Calcutta at a public auction, I should suppose they couid obtain them, but I never was concerned in any commercial transaction whatever. Has it ever appeared to you from your observation that the market for European commodities in India has ever fallen much belnw the demand for them ? — I had scarcely an opportunity of seeing that, being so far in the provinces ; and these things must occur in Calcutta. (By a Lord.) — Has not the number of British subjects within the interior of the country much increased of late years ? — In the district of Momensing there was not one except those in the Company's service. When I was in Tirhoot from 1793 to 1797, there were several, but whether they increased afterwards, I do not know ; in the district of Cawnpore, in which the British government was so lately established, there was not a trader in the district, except the sutllers with the army. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then GUY LENOX PRENDERGAST, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) — I believe you are in the civil service of the East-India Q m . L emt Company? — lam. n' j„ „„„/ r J 1 rendergast, Esq On what establishment ? — On the Bombay establishment. i ^.--^ How long ago did you go out to India ? — I went out in 1793. How long have you been returned to this country ? — A little better than two years. In what parts of India did you reside? — The greater part of the time in the Guzerat country. And the rest of the time where ? — In Bombay. N In 00 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Guv Lenox In what capacity did you reside in the Guzerat country ?— I was in Finnic r»as(, 1795 appointed resident at Broach during Scindiah's gevernxent there ,_ feqt and I remained in that situation seven years, until the commencement or «• v _ — i tnc war f are in Guzerat in 1802, when I was appointed paymaster to the troops in the field in Guzerat; at the close of the warfare I was appointed judge and magistrate and revenue commissioner for settling the revenue affairs of that newly conquered country, in which capacity I remained (or five years, and until I left India, a little better than two years ago. Did you in that time acquire an acquaintance with the characters, man ners, usages, and institutions of the inhabitants of the Guzerat country ? — During the time that I resided at Broach as resident I had no other society whatever, there was no other European than myself. I think E had an opportunity of knowing the native prejudices and habits. Are the manners, usages, and institutions of the natives of that country very dissimilar to those of Europeans in general ? — Extremely so- What do you conceive would be the consequence of an unrestrained intercourse between Europeans and the natives of those countries? — An unrestrained intercourse between Europeans and natives would be productive of considerable disorder-, and it would be extremely likely to produce quarrels. In what manner do you conceive that effect would arise ? — From an interference with their prejudices, interruption to their religious cere - monies, and in a variety of ways, during their common intercourse they would offend them. Do you- conceive the cause of it would be a difficulty bM the part o{- Europeans- of accommodating themselves to the peculiarities of the natives ? —Exactly so. Supposing Europeans to be ailowe-d a fr^e access to tlrat country, do you conceive that it would be easy to prevent them from pervading thcr cpuntry, and from interfering with the prejudices of the natives : — I do cot think it would be possible to prevent them from interfering in the prejudices of the natives, newly arrived from Europe and unacquainted "with. their manners and habits.. Bid EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 91 Did you have occasion to see exemplified the effects of an ignorance of Guy Lenai native manners on the part of Europeans associating with the natives ?— Prcndergast, In some instances I had frequent complaints against young men recently Esq. arrived from Europe, for offences against their prejudices, the extent of which they were not aware of, and which it was extremely difficult to impress upon them ; I mean young men in the Company's service, there were no other Europeans within the jurisdiction that I had. Do you conceive that a much more extensive intercourse between Europeans newly arrived and the natives would increase those abuses in a very gfeat degree.* — No doubt it would, as at present constituted ; the locail authorities would not have the power of controuling them, or protecting the natives trom the violences and irregularities they would no doubt be guiltv of. o" In what courts are the British' subjects' triable for offences committed against the natives ? — In the recorder's court at Bombay. Can you say of what part of the population the juries in that court consist ?— The juries I think consist of Europeans. Do you mean of the inhabitants ? — I resided at Bombay very llttl *. I have been frequently on the grand jury, which is composed of Europeans ; the petty jury I never was on, but 1 think they also are Europeans. Hav« the ^government the power of recalling Europeans immediately from the interior who misconduct themselves in any manner ? — They have. In point of fact, has this power been exercised within your knowledge ? • — I do not immediately recollect any instance of it. Supposing a very great influx of Europeans into that country, and supposing the government to find a pretty frequent exercise of this power necessary, do you conceive, that tlie exercise of such power would be invidious or odious in the eyes of the British inhabitants under that presidency ? — I think it certainly would. Are you able to say, whether there be a considerable European popu- lation in Bombay itself? — The island is a small one; there are belonging to the ships and merchant's service a good number in Bombay ; the Euro- pean population is very Considerable in proportion tofhe size of the island. N 2 Are 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Guy Lenox Are there any number of British residents in the island of Bombay not Prendefgast, in the service of the Company ? — A good many, I think. Esq. i ^ > j) o y QU conce ; ve> that | n the eyes of this British population, any fre- quent exercise of an arbitrary power on the part of the government over British subjects would be offensive ? — I do think they would view it in that light. Are you able to say, whether the British population in that quarter have a considerable degree of national feeling with respect to each, or whether they freely associate and communicate with the natives in the island of Bombay, or on the continent of the peninsula ? — The intermixture is not a.great deal ; it is very little. Have the Europeans a considerable national feeling of sympathy with regard to each other ? — I think they have. Have you had opportunities of seeing how far the native population under the presidency of Bombay arc in the habit of using European commodities i — In the island itself, the Parsees, I believe, are in the habit of using some little ; but excepting them, I do not think I have observed it at all, and to the northward, certainly not at all, excepting in a very small way, perhaps a piece of cloth thrown over the shoulders ; but not in their dress, or house, or utensils. SVhile you resided in that country, did you perceive a growing use of European commodities among the natives r — In that respect I did not see the smallest difference while I resided amongst them, they appeared to be in that respect perfectly stationary. To what circumstance do you ascribe it, that the natives are so indif- ferent or averse to the use of European commodities ? — They are not at all necessary to their comforts or habits, they find every thing they wish or want extremely cheap where they are, and their necessities do not seem to require them. Do you conceive that cheapness and facility of procuring commodities which they want, to arise from peculiar circumstances in the climate, soil, and produce of the country ? — Certainly I do. Can any part of it be traeed to the fixed habits or manners of the people ? — No doubt. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 93 Are you /ible to say, whether persons who have the means of pur- Guy Lenox chasing European commodities, do always purchase them, or not ? — There Prendgrgasl, are a great many who have the means who do not purchase them ; within Esq. that part of the country where I lived, a great many could purchase them, ^ Y — s but did not feel disposed to do so. Do you conceive, that under any circumstances the sale of European commodities in that quarter is likely to be much extended among thfc natives ? — Among the natives I am decidedly of opinion that it is not. Did you observe among that part of the native population who had intercourse with Europeans any growing conformity to European manners or habits ? — In a very trifling degree indeed ; perhaps the introduction of a few chairs on a public visit; beyond that and a few articles of furniture I never have observed any. Is the use of furniture general among the inhabitants of that country, or confined to a few persons of rank and distinction ? — The furniture I have mentioned is never used but on the occasion of receiving visits from Europeans. Are those persons who receive visits, persons of distinction ? — Yes. Is there, in point of fact, a great inequality between the condition of persons of the highest rank in that country, and persons of the lowest order ? — There is. Will you shortly describe who are the parties of whom you have spoken as constituting a part of the population of Bombay ? — I do not recollect their history, they are separate and distinct from the rest of the natives of India, and bear no proportion in point of numbers to them. Are they in point of fact a small tribe ? — Very small. You have said that the use of European manufactures, to a slight extent, takes place among the Parsees; do you conceive that even an ex- tended use of them by persons of that sect would huve the effect .of pro- portionably extending the use of them among the other natives of that country ? — I do not think it would ; the Parsees who use European articles are those principally connected with the houses or agency at Bombay, and joined in partnership with them; there are Parsees besides those, on the Broach coast, at Surat, Broach, and Cambay : those have not at all used M MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON Guy Lenox used the European articles, nor shew the slightest disposition to do it, I Prendergast, think. Esq. fc — « * — "^ Is there any perceptible difference between the characters of the native population within Bombay, and that of the native population on the ad~ joining continent ? — There is a very great difference; the population of Bombay is a mixture of almost all, but I have not resided a great deal among them to know so much of the natives of' Bombay, as I have of the natives of the province of Guzerat; they are more mixed, and more difficult, from that circumstance, to trace to any particular character. Do you conceive in general tlrat an increased use of European manu- factures among the inhabitants of Bombay would produce an increased use ot them among the other native people under that presidency ?— -I do not think it would have that effect. Do the natives of the adjoining continent use, in any degree, woollens from this country r~ — In a very limited degree indeed.; f have seen it with an odd native here and there, but not in dress, merely as a piece of cloth thrown over them ; I exclude of course the Company's sepoys, those that are clothed by the Company. Do the natives of that country use any kind of woollen, or other thicker kind of clothing, during the rainy season ?— Woollen cloth that is called Blank in tiie original manufactured in the countrv, and comes very cheap. Minutes ol Evidence. J J r In point of fact are European articles, and particularly woollen, exposed to sale in the markets of that country ? — In the interior, I think not. In Bombay have European commodities generally been imported, and exposed to sale ? — They have. Do you conceive that whatever demand there may be among the natives for articles of European manufactures, has been sufficiently met by a supply of such articles r — Certainly it has. Do you conceive that an increased communication between British subjects and the natives of the interior would in any gr^at degree increase the consumption of European products ? — I do not think it would. Do you conceive it possible that, without such an increased intercourse, the consumption of European produce should be much extended among the Have not the government of Bombay been particularly careful in pay- ing respect to.tlie manners and institutions of the native people . ? — They have. (Examined -j EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 9t the native population ?— It does not appear to me that European produce Guy Lenox can be introduced among the natives, for had they wished it, they no PrcndergasE, doubt could procure it through native agents from Bombay where various Esq descriptions of European article? are often to be found tn the ships frequently v decaying and injured, and would be sold extremely cheap ; but I have not seen such in the shops in the different towns I have passed in the Guzerat country, and I have gone into those shops to look for them ; any European articles excepting a few common looking glasses, and very coarsely manufactured clasp knives. Do the Europeans in that country employ natives as menial servants ? — They do. Have you observed among those persons any great taste for the use" of such commodities as are ordinarily used by their masters ? — I have nor. Do you imagine that under any circumstances there is much prospect of extending the sale of European manufactures to the northward or eastward of our possessions in the Guzerat country ?— That is a point on which I was spoken to by the government of Bombay ; they expressed a considerable anxiety on that account, and I made every inquiry from those natives I conceived best calculated to give me information on it during the time I was resident at Broach. I also consulted the commer- cial resident at Surat, and he made inquiry, and none of these inquiries induced me to believe that European commodities could with anv advan- tage be forged up into those quarters alluded to in the question. As far as you have had opportunities of knowing, hare the Bombay go- vernment exerted themselves to promote the consumption of European; articles among the native people ? — I think they have, and I am quite satisfied that 1 could not have recommended myself mere strongly to the Bombay government, than by forwarding those views which led me to make the enquiries already stated. Do you imagine that any such increase of the consumption of European produce in that quarter of India is to be expected, as would not be most fully supplied by the existing system ?*— I think it could be fully sup- plied by the present system. 8 <} MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE (Examined by the Committee.) i.1 Do the distinction of ranks in India at all correspond with the disti-nc- (rijij Lac: . ^ ^ . ^ s country r — No, I do not know how I could assimi- ° late the two ranks. Esq. — v*- How could you distinguish the different ranks in India ? — In the pro- vince of Guzerat there are governors of divisions of country; souba- dars, nabobs, and others placed in official situations of government. Is there any order at all corresponding to our country gentlemen ?— None ; there are the heads of villagers and cultivators of land. What part of the population are the principal consumers of the articles that go from this country ? — Amongst the natives of the Guzerat coun- try, there are no consumers of articles that go from this country. Is the consumption of the manufactures that go from this country con- fined principally to the Europeans ? — I think generally throughout the country, excepting only a hw of the Parsees of Bombay. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then DAVID HALIBURTON, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : D Haliburton ( By Counsel.) — How long were you in the service p ' Company ? — Five and twenty years. of the East India Esq -v At which of the presidencies ? — Madras or Fort St. George. In what department of the India Company's service have you been principally employed ? — In the political and revenue department I may call it, for I was Persian translator to the government of Fort St. George, from the year 1778, till a few months before I came away in 1795 ; and during that time from the year 1782, I was also employed in the reve- nue, first in the committee of revenue when the Carnatic was under the charge of the Company, and afterwards in the Board of Revenue. Were you for some time at the head of the Board of Revenue ?— Yes. State -v~ EAST-INDiA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 97 State for what time ? — For four years. J}, Hulbnrton, I- Sf i Did you acquaint yourself with the languages of the country ? — With ^ the Persian and with the Hindostan, but not with the vernacular languages of that part of the country. Did the situations you held and your acquaintance with thi> language of the c luntry, enable you to form an accurate idea of the character or the natives?— I endeavoured to form an opinion of them, whether it was ac- curate or not, I do not know ; I did all I could to form the best opinion of them. Did they appear to you a race of people extremely attached to their own manners, and opinions, and fashions, and with great difficulty in- duced to alter them ? — I think so certainly. In the event of a free trade being opened between this country and India, and the permission of private traders from hence to penetrate into the country, and to reside in it at their pleasure for mercantile purposes, is it your opinion that any material inconveniences would arisa, either with respect to the happiness of the natives or the stability of our government there ? — I think there would, from I may say the contempt the Europeans have of the natives on their first arrival in that country ; in process of time, when an European gets better acquainted with them, he forms a better opinion of them ; but, at first, most Europeans have a thorough con- tempt for the natives of that country. Are you: then of opinion, that more mischief is likely to arise from such free intercourse of persons unacquainted with the habits of the natives, than from the intercourse which now takes place between them and the servants of the East India Company ? — Certainly, a great deal more. Would such persons be In danger of ignorantly offending the natives, from not knowing their peculiar prejudices and manners ? — Yes, I think they would ; 1 could give an instance : Madras is a great settlement when* numbers of ships arrive, men of war, and others; and it is necessary to put the Europeans undeT some restraint on their landing ashore from the navy, at the hospital, for example ; and where they have been landed in considerable bodies, it "was necessary to keep them under some sort of restraint to prevent their committing offences, which they did not know were offences, perhaps. 0& MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE D. Hahhurton, (By a Lord.)— Those are the seamen of the men of war? — Yes; the Esq. same with regard to the King's regiments th;;t had come out to India. In i v ' the latter vears that I was there, they were put under some sort of restraint, it depended very much on the character of the commanding officer; some- times men of consideration took care that they should commit no offences in the country, and kept them under some sort of restraint in their garri- sons. I speak of course to the time that I was there, I cannot say what may be done now. (By Counsel.) — If it is necessary to place the crews of such vessels un- der restraint at the presidencies, would it not be S'ill more necessary at the other ports ?long the coasts, if vessels were permitted to enter those ports freely?— If possible, but I should think myself it would be almost impos- sible ; there are, on the coast of Coromandel, perhaps thirty or forty dif- ferent places of landing, where vessels might arrive, and where it would be impossible to restrain them. From your observation, do you think if a free trade were opened between this country and India, that there is any probability of a material increase of demand for European commodities among the natives? — It is a matter that I must speak upon with very great doubt myself, as I never was em- ployed in any commercial capacity, nor do I know any thing of the trade of the country ; but I think that the demands of the natives are so little for European articles, from what I have known, that I think it never would increase very much. Have you had an opportunity to observe at Madras, whether natives who are in the habits of intercourse with Europeans, acquire in any degree their manners or tastes ? — I think at Madras a few may perhaps have done it in some degree; the first establishment of Madras was of the date of 1620; it was the first establishment the Company had in the peninsula of Hindostan ; they may be better acquainted there than in the inland parts, but still the bulk of the p-ople remain very ignorant of the English man- ners, and are given very little to purchase European articles of furniture, or to attend to European customs of any sort. Have you known any persons of high rank in that settlement among the natives, who have shewn any taste for European commodities ? — I hardly know but one or two instances in all the time I was there. Do you recollect what those instances were ? — They were what we call the Dubashes, who are the native interpreters to gentlemen there ; they have EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 99 have sometimes indulged themselves with a carriage, or perhaps a watch, D. lluliburtoti, or some trifle of' that sort ; their masters gave the latter to them perhaps, Esq or they would not have been at the expence of buying them. ' -- v— Do you think the present system of Indian commerce adequate to sup- ply the demands of the natives for European commodities? — It did at the time that I was there, but it is eighteen years since I left it. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then GRiEME MERCER, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel ) How long have you been in the service of the East Gramc Mercer y India Company ? — Neatly twenty-five years. Esq. In what department, and at what settlement ?— I was appointed to the medical department in the service on the Bengal establishment ; but have been since very frequently employed in both the revenue and political departments of that service. Are you still in the service of the Company ? — I still am in the service of the Company. You having stated you have been employed in political duties, will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what they have been ? — I was first appointed, in the year 1789, by the governor-general, LordCorn- wallis, to attend the embassy at the Nizam's court in a medical situation, where I remained for nearly four years; during that interim, I accom- panied the resident with the Nizam's army to Seringapatam, where I was employed as secretary in the negociation for a peace, which took place between the British Government, the Marhattas, and the Nizam, on the one part, and Tippoo Sultaun on the other. Bad health having forced me to resign my situation at Hydrabad, I returned to Bengal, when I was appointed to Benares in a medical capacity. In that situation I re- maintd till 1801. In the interim I accompanied Lord Teignmouth, then governor-general, twice on his journies to Lucknow, once as an assistant and once in a medical capacity. In 1801 I was appointed to accompany Mr. Henry Wellesley in his mission to Lucknow ; and was soon after appointed secretary to the mission. On the conclusion of the treaty with the Nabob Vizier, I was appointed secretary to the Lieutenant Gover- .nor and Board of Commissioners for the settlement of the countries ceded O 2 by " V - 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Grame Mercer, by that treaty. On the conclusion of the treaty with the Nabob of Fur- Esq. ruckabad, I was appointed agent for the Governor-General for the set- ■j tk:ment of that district ; and on the dissolution of the Board of Com- missioners, I acted for some months as secretary to the government in the department of the ceded provinces. On the breaking out of the Mar- hatta war, I was sent by the governor-general. Lord Wellesley, as political agent with the commander-in-chief, Lord Lake, for the purpose of con- ducting the political negociation under his superintendence. On the conclusion of peace with Scindia, I was nominated to reside with him as resident on the part of the British Government, and in which situation I remained till 1811, when bad health forced me to return to Europe. Are you acquainted with the Persian and Hindostan languages? — lam acquainted with both. From your knowledge of the languages of the country, and the op- portunities you have had from residing in so many different parts of it of observing the natives, haw you been enabled to form an accurate idea of their character ? — I should consider any general character of the inhabi- tants of so large an empire as very liable to mistake. Are they generally very tenacious of their own modes of living and thinking, and of their habits, their fashions, and their prejudices ?— Very much so. From the knowledge you have of the natives of that country, are you of opinion, that if a free trade were opened between this country and India, and private adventurers from this country were allowed to go into the interior of India and reside there at will, it would be attended with any evil consequences to the peace and happiness of the natives of that country ? — I believe that such an intercourse would certainly lead to oppression upon the natives of those countries. If such a measure were adopted in this country, are you aware of any manner in which that oppression either could be prevented or adequately punished?— I know of no measure which could entirely prevent, but measures of regulation might be taken to lessen the evil. If such oppression were to take place from the circumstances above stated, would it not tend to create great disaffection in the natives towards ■the English government ?— No doubt it would. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 101 Are you of opinion that if a free trade were opened between this coun- Gneme Mercer, try and India, there would be any materially increased demand among Esq. the natives of India for English manufactures or commodities ? — I think ' « no sudden increased demand for the manufactures of this country would arise from such a free trade ; the habits and manners of the natives are of such a nature as may be said to be nearly unchangeable ; their wants from other countries are few or none ; and from the period in which I have resided in India, I could perceive little or no alteration with regard to their demands for any European commodities. You have been at the Nizam's court ; did you perceive there among the higher ranks of people, or even in the Nizam himself, any taste for European commodities ? — Certainly not. The only article that I at pre- sent recollect in the Nizam's court of European manufacture was a pair of lustres which were sent out by His present Majesty to the Nizam. Have you ever been -at the fair at Hurdwar r-— I accompanied the Lieu- tenant Governor of the ceded Provinces to Hurdwar, for the purpose of examining whether any vent for goods, either the produce of our own provinces or of Europe, could be effected there. In consequence of Lord Wellesley's anxious wish to give every possible encouragement to the intercourse in trade of the countries lately ceded to the British Govern- ment, and those bordering on them, fairs were established on the borders of the Rohilcund country; and the commercial resident at Bareilly, the , nearest station to Hurdwar, was, in the following year, 1803, furnished with an assortment of every kind of broad-cloth, the manufacture of Great Britain, which could be supposed likely to meet a sale at the Hurdwar fair. This experiment I believe entirely failed; hardly enough was sold I understood afterwards to pay the expences of the conveyance of the goods to the fair. Has it fallen within your knowledge, that Lord Wellesley anxiously pursued every measure in his power to extend the consumption of the manufactures of this country, in the newly acquired districts in the neighbourhood of Oude? — It certainly appeared to be his Lordship's wish to do so, and orders were issued that every facility should be given for this intercourse. Is it your opinion, that the present system of trade has been fully ade- quate to the supply of the natives of India with such European manu- facture^ as are in demand among them? — There appears to me to be .great abundance of all those articles of European manufactures, which are likely 10'2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Grame Mercer, likely to be wished for by the natives, at the principal cities and military Esq. stations at which I have been, fully equal to meet any demand w hich was »— v 1 likely to be made for them by the natives ; the native traders themselves are very active and industrious, and could convey goods through the country at an expence perhaps one-fourth of what would be required for an European. If such a demand existed in the interior, I have no doubt that these traders would supply it from the stores in Calcutta and other large cities. Are you of opinion that there is any probability of such an increase of demand tor European manufactures among the natives ot India as can- not easily be supplied by the present system ? — Certainly nut. Do not the persons who resort to the fair of Hurdwar principally come from the cold countries. to the northward? — Great numbers pome from Caboul, Punjab, and Candahar, they also come from the Napaul Hilis and Sirinagur; the former countries are situated in a high degree of latitude, where warm clothing is much required. Can you state what warm clothing the people of these countries are fur- nished with, so as to prevent their consumption of British woollens when offered to them at the fair of Hurdwar ? — They manufacture coarse wool- lens, which is the general wear of the lower ranks of people ; the higher ranks wear the shawl manufacture ; considerable numbers of coarse shawls are brought down by those traders to the Hurdwar fair. (Examined by the Committee) Do you happen to know whether, during ihe time you have been in India, any articles of woollen manufacture have been fabricated and sent out from hence of a cheaper kind than what might have been usually sent, for the purpose of trying whether they could get a market in India ? — I do not know that any particular kinds have been sent of late that were not before ; there are great quantities of very coarse broad-cloths sent out, which are principally disposed of at the sales of the Company at Calcutta : consider- able quantities of this cloth were used to clothe the armies of the native powers. Scindiah had a force of perhaps 50,000 men, great part of which were clothed in British coarse woollens. Holkar had aKo the regular bat- talions ot his army clothed in the same way : this vent has considerably di- minished., from those powers retaining fewer regular intantry than for- merly. You mentioned that, in consequence of the representations of Mr. Henry Wellesley, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 103 Wellesley, woollens were sent up to Bareilly to see whether they could Grxme Mercer, find a market at Hurdwar ; do you recollect whether they were sent with Esq. low prices, or whether there was not a higher price put on them than they ' r — ,-> were selling at, at the presidency ? — I have no particular recollection but from their sales at Calcutta, which I understood generally were at as low a rate as they could be sold at with a most moderate profit. It is probable, I think, that those sent up for sale at Hurdwar were ordered to be sold at an equal rate, with the difference of charges, to the sales of Calcutta, but of this I am not certain. What is the duration of the fair of Hurdwar ? — I believe a fortnight or three weeks, I speak entirely from recollection. And it is an annual fair ? — Annual ; but the great fair is held only once in twelve years, where the people from all parts come, both for reli- gious purposes and for barter. The fair at which I was present was not of those great fairs, and it was supposed there were then between two and three hundred thousand people collected. Were there any articles sent to the fair of Hurdwar at the time you at- tended it, except wooJen goods ? — None, I believe. Were any articles of hardware exposed to sale there? — I did not ob- serve any. Hive you observed generally throughout the interior of the country, there are at the Bazars European articles offered for sale? — Only at such places where Europeans reside in Scindiah's camp. I have seen European articles, such as spectacles and other trifling articles. Are you aware that the experiment tried by Lord Wellesley's orders, of sending woollen goods to Hurdwar in a subsequent year to that in which you were there, was afterwards repeated at the subsequent fairs? — I can- not speak with certaimv ; but I am rather inclined to believe not : the Mar- hatta war took place during the course of the next year. Do you know of any efforts which have been made during your residence in India, more particularly during Lord Wellesley's time, to push manu- factures into the countries north of the mountains above Hurdwar ? — I have no recollection of any, except what I have formerly stated ot the in- stitution of fairs for the purpose of barter. Is 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Crttme Mercer, Is it your opinion, that the example of Scindiah and Holkar, in clothing Esq. certain regular battalions in British woollens, is not likely to be followed ^—- v — -v- by other powers, for example, the king of Candahar? — There are no regu- lar troops on the footing of those disciplined by Scindiah and Holkar, that I believe are entertained by the king of Caboul; the Mussulmen, who con- stitute the principal part of his subjects, will not readily serve on toot ■, they will not submit to the discipline which is necessary to render infantry effective, and even in the native infantry of our armies. The Mussulmen do not compose one tenth, I believe, of the numbers entertained in our service. Are there any other of the native princes that have any thing like a regular army? — They have some few small bodies of men, which they call battalions, but nothing at all effective, and the want of this force has been the great cause of their failure against the Marhatta chiefs, Scindiah- and Holkar, and their effective force of infantry and artillery. Is the principal part of the native armies covered during the warm wea- ther with calicoes rather than woollen ? — Yes, calicoes quilted. It is not the greater part of the armies that wear woollen ? — Only regular infantry. Is that regular infantry a considerable part of the army ? — With those two powers, Scindia and Holkar, it constituted a very large proportion. Do the Marhattas wear any woollen ? — Some people of higher rank Wear a piece of broad-cloth, generally scarlet broad-cloth, over their shoul- ders in cold weather; but this docs not extend to any great number. And that of their own manufacture ? — Of British manufacture. The witness is directed to withdraw. It being then proposed to adjourn this Committee till to-morrow ; The same is agreed to, and ordered accordingly. Hie EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 105 Die Juris, 8° Apritk 1813. The Earl of Buckinghamshire in the Chair, Order of adjournment read. The counsel are called in. The proceedings of this Committee yesterday are read. Then THOMAS COCKBURN, Esquire, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel) You have resided at Madras in the civil service of the Thos. Cochbum, East India Company ? — I have. Esq. I , 1 How long did you reside there in that service ? — I believe I arrived in 1770, and left it at the close of 1802. Did you reside in the country during the whole of that interval ? — The whole of that interval. Did you occupy any, and what, high official situations in the service o0 the Company during that time ? — 1 served the Company the whole of that period. When I arrived I entered the military secretary's office ; in 17**1, was appointed deputy accountant general; in the year 1786, commissary general of grain and provisions to the army. I also acted some part of that time, till 17Q3, as accountant to the board of revenue, and as member ©f the board of revenue from 170/3 to the period of my quitting India. I was also employed as acting president of the commission for carrying into execution the permanent settlement of the land revenue at Madras. P Had "V~ 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thes.Cockburn, Had you ample means of informing yourself with respect to the cha- Esq. racters, manners, institutions, and prejudices of the native population ? — ' I had the means of doing so, but not so extensively as those who had made the language their study. At the period of my arrival in India it was not t ] K . .; : 0i' the Company's government at Madras to encourage the study of the languages; the system was rather adverse to it; and the situ- ation I was thrown into immediately after my arrival, and the war with Hyder, which commenced in 1780, rendered my official duties so onerous, fls'to preclude my appropriating time to study the native languages; but I had certainly opportunities of being intimately acquainted with the na- tives; their habits and prejudices. Had you, either by your own communications with the natives, or by communication and correspondence with other British subjects resident in the country, sufficient means of acquainting yourself with the native pe- culiarities to form a definitive opinion on the subject ? — I think I had. Are you able to say, whether the natives hold their customs a.nd opi- nions loosely, or whether they cherish for them a bigotted attachment ? — I conclude that they feel them interwoven almost with their existence. Are their manners and institutions such as must seem very singular in the view of an European ? — Certainly they are; and so singular, that I believe the legislature has provided that customs and manners, which are not consistent with English ideas, should still be suffered to prevail in aH the considerations of subjects that come before the courts of judicature of Bombay, Bengal, and Madras. Speaking with respect to the majority of the natives, would you say that they' were equal in vigour, either of body or mind, to Europeans? — It is not possible to suppose, that they are equal in vigour of body to the Eu- ropeans, from the climate in which, they live; but they are capable of enduring great fatigue, and' are naturajly considerably laborious in vigour of mind ; they certainly are not equal to the Europeans, but what they want in vigour of mind, they certainly make up in some. degree by their habits of yielding, and. of opposing evasion to oppression ; in taking opportunities of revenging themselves, in cases, of injury, or of com- plaining to thos» fiom whom they may hope for redress. Hav# you ever observed in Europeans, unacquainted with the natives, a tendency to violate their prejudices, or to make light of their pecu- liarities ? — I frequently have had occasion to see it, when the European himself ^EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFPAIR3. 107 himself perhaps was not sensible of it, for they arc peculiarly tenacious of Thos.Coc/ibitr.i, all their customs and usages. E.,q. Have you ever observed in Europeans a disposition to domineer over the natives, from the mere consciousness of their superiority in mental and bodily vigour, or of their national and political ascendancy ? — I some- times have had occasion to know ignorant Europeans, and even those better informed, treat the natives, not with that consideration which is due to all their prejudices and habits ; but I cannot say, that Europeans, generally speaking, whom I have seen in India, unless those who had been a very short time in the country, or whose tempers were bad, did not treat the natives with due consideration. In your apprehension, does the forbearance and indulgence generally exercised towards the native people by the British residents, result from the peculiar guards provided for the nati. . ~s by the present system of British government ? — Certainly : the regulations of the British govern- ment have a strong tendency to preserve order in the conduct of the Eu- ropeans generally, because they are under the immediate and direct con- troul of the government of India ; but it has frequently happened, that the soldiery, from the natural habits they indulge in, do not treat the natives with that degree of feeling which it is desirable they should ; and in some instances have been known to consider them not at all on a par with themselves as human beings. Is your remark confined to the British soldiery, or does it more or les« extend to all lower Europeans? — There were very few instances, when I was in India, of any Europeans of the latter description being any where resident in the country but at the presidency ; none indeed of the lower orders that I ever knew ; it was not permitted by the regulations of the government that any such persons should pervade the country. Were such persons permitted to pervade the interior of the country, do you conceive that the natives would be exposed to insult and violence ? — ■ 1 have no doubt, that if an unrestrained ingress of Europeans was suffered to resort to India, that it would have a baneful effect upon the comfort, the peace, and happiness of the native British subjects of India ; and that it would also, in my humble opinion, imminently endanger the British interests in India. Supposing a large influx of British subjects into the seaport towns of P 2 the ~v- 103 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THH Thos.Cockbmt!, the peninsula, and supposing, many of them inclined to penetrate into the Esq. interior of the country, how far in your opinion would it be possible to ' ■.' — ** prevent the frequent fulfilment of that wish ? — That must entirely depend. upon the regulations which the Government might institute for the pre- vention of that evil, and how far those intrusted with the executions of the regulations might do their duty; at present, at least when I was in India, the rule I believe was, that when a ship imported at any port where there was a master attendant, and a custom-house, it was the duty of the master attendant to require the captain of the ship so importing to transmit to him a list of the crew, their names and countries, and the Barnes and countries of all passengers on board ; and until such list was furnished, no boat, or any th ng from the vessel, was suffered to be landedj. In regard to proceeding into the country, the law and regulation of the Government was, that a passport describing the person so wishing to go into the interior of the country must be obtained, and then the party wa-s to proceed to the place of destination, where another passport, if he •wished to proceed further, would be granted to him. If he attempted to proceed without a passport, he was liable to be seized by all the officers of Government employed throughout the country, and by the inhabi- tants of the country, to whom a reward is given fur bringing into the nearest station all Europeans of whatever description or denomination, who are found travelling without the passport of government. This of course might be evaded, by forging passports in the first instance, and by taking such tracts as weie not likely to fall in with the officers of Go- vernment; but it would be very difficult, if not impossible, in such a case,, not to meet with obstruction from the inhabitants. As all Europeans of every description are prohibited from holding lands or houses, or renting lands and houses beyond ten miles from the presidency of Madras, with- out the sanction of the Government, it of course could seldom have hap- pened, while I was in India, that instances of Europeans being stopped ia this way should occur, though I have known it in the case of civil and military servants proceeding to stations without having obtained the ne- cessary passporta. Are there unj seaports on either side of the peninsula in which the British' have not established a port police? —In a coast that extends so many thousand miles, I really cannot venture to say that there are esta- blishments at ail the ports At most of the ports on the Malabar coast, and on the Coromandel coast, there are establishments for the purpose of inspecting all vessels importing there ; and the motive of it, I believe, was to endeavour, if possible, to prevent the ingress of Europeans, especially foreigners, and Frenchmen in particular; but to extend establishments of that EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1CX) that kind to every place where it was possible for a ship to import, would Thos. Coclburn> naturally require very extensive establishments as well as considerable Esq. expence. *— • ■ Supposing then that the Indian seas were laid fully open to the vessels of private adventurers from this country, do not you conceive that many Europeans might effect a landing upon the peninsula with licences, and might penetrate into the interior of the country ? — It is not improbable that many would attempt it ; but I do not think it very probable that a great number could effect their purpose, because the Government is pecis- liarly vigilant in preventing an evil that would be so detrimental to the comfort and happiness of the people, and to their own interests. Do the police establishments in the interior of the country consist chiefly of Europeans or of natives ? — They consist of an European magis- trate in each zillah or district, who is also, or ought to be, a justice of the peace; under him all the officers employed are natives, who act under regulations printed and published for the information of the people, at large. Is not then the British magistrate in a great degree dependant upon native assistants, both for information with respect to such Europeans as are attempting to pervade the interior, and for fully enforcing such re- strictions as he may think it necessary to impose on their progress ? — > The European magistrate must naturally very much depend upon the exertions of the police officers in the efficient performance of those duties which he cannot himself personally superintend. The efficient performance of his own duties, with the strictne5S and regularity necessary xo check such an evil, must depend very much upon his individual energy, and the degree of authority which he may feel himself war- ranted and disposed to exert towards his countrymen in such situations. Should Europeans in any number attempt illegally to pervade the in- terior of the country, might not the native officers of police be induced either by corruption or intimidation to promote their purpose ? — There can be no doubt that corruption and intimidation might have some detri- mental effect, as the regulations which can be framed are subject to a defective execution of them ; but it would not only be necessary to bribe an officer of onedistrict or zillah but of all, between the sea-port and the situation to which such individuals may desire to proceed. Are the troops posted at the different stations in the interior of the country 1 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Titos. Cockburn, country principally natives or Europeans? — It is difficult to answer that Esq. question, because there are stations tor Europeans in the interior as wel 1 v ' as on the sea coast ; bur, generally-speaking, in the small forts and sta- tions in the interior of the Carnatic, sepoys under the command of Euro- pean officers and non-commissioned officers arc stationed as guards on the coast. There are many of the ports where, 1 believe, there are nq military, but persons in the employment of the collectors. What effect would follow from the frequent exercise of coercion over Europeans by native officials or corps of sepoys, in the estimation in which the British character is generally held throughout that countiy ? — It would no doubt tend to lessen the respect of the natives for Europeans in general; and I think, in the instances to which I alluded of persons having been stopped who had gone without passes, complaint was made of the disrespect which had been shewn to them; but it being a regula- tion of the government intended for the peace and good order of the country, I do not apprehend it would have any very violent effect in that respect. It might, however, in some cases be productive of inconvenience, by stopping the officers of government in their progress on important: business of the government ; but though it might have that effect, the execution of the regulation would still, in my opinion, be necessary. In what way do ycu conceive that obstruction could arise to the progress of the officers of government on the part of the natives ? — As the natives receive a reward of ten pagodas for every European who may be found passing without regular passports, it is their interest to stop all persons whom they may find without passports; and it may be also, frorn the same circumstances, an inducement for them to question the authen- ticity of the paper that may be presented to them ns a passport, as very lew of them can read what is therein written. Are not you of opinion that the natives described might occasionally question the authenticity of the passport with very good, reason ? — No doubt they might do so, but in that case they would carry the person and his passport to the next garrison ; it would be for the officers command- ing To discriminate as well as he could, whether it was a regular or a lorged pass. Are the garrisons frequent with reference to the whole area of the country under the presidency of Madras ? — So many changes have taken place, and so many small ports that used to be occupied when we had enemies to apprehend, are now withdrawn, that I cannot, in an area of not EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1H not much less than 130,000 square miles, give an answer to this question; Thos.Codbum, but though there may be no garrison, there are collectors and judges in Esq. different parts of the country, to whom, in case of a garrison not b:ing l — — Y ' neir, such parties would be carried. Are you aware that British subjects, for offences committed against the natives, are triable only in the supreme court of judicature established at the presidency ? — I am aware of that being the case, and I consider ic one of the great grievances under which our Indian subjects labour. It is not only in respect to assaults or irregularities affecting their persons, but in respect to their property ; an European, a British subject resident in the interior, licensed by the government, by some construction of the law as it now stands, is considered even in regard to matters of property only amenable to the supreme courts ; but as the act of going into the interior is one of his own seeking, and suffered by the license of govern- ment, he enters into a bond to allow himself to be prosecuted in the courts established under the regulations of government to the extent of 500 rupees, while the European has the power to prosecute a native subject of Great Britain to any extent to which his dealings may ex'end ; but if the native has larger demands upon the European than 500 rupees, he must proceed to the supreme court to prosecute him at the distance of sometimes hundreds, and in Bengal one thousand miles, at an expencc not only ruinous, but he must leave his family, his pursuits, and I may say every thing that is dear to him, and which he has been accustomed to, for the purpose of obtaining redress at the presidencies, while other Europeans not British subjects, are considered amenable to the country courts : I mean the courts established under the regulations of the government of India sanctioned by the authority of the legislature ; and this exception in favour of the British appears to me to give great reason for the natives to doubt the impartiality if not the justice of the English government. In criminal matters, an European, if informed against before a magistrate, is liable to be taken up by that magistrate, and tire witnesses are bound over to proceed to the supreme court wherever- established, for the purpose of prosecution for the offence; of course subject to the same inconveniences already described, except that in case of poverty, an allowance of two annas (3|d.) a day, I believe, is allowed to the witnesses to bear their expences on such occasions, and in some particular cases, I believe, government defray the expence of the pro- secution. . From your answer is the Committee to collect, that a- frequent resort. on the part of the natives to the supreme court for the' purposes oL justice 1 1 B MlfclJTES OF EVIDENCE ON THF. Thds.Coclibih-ii) justice is morally impracticable ? — I think it nearly amounts to impracti- Esq. cability, and that the natives in such cases would rather suffer great injury 11 v ' than lesort to it, because a separation from their families, and I fear frequent ruin to their circumstances, would be the consequence. You have had occasion to know several of the British residents at tie presidencies ; can you say whether they are much actuated bv that rational sympathy and fellow feeling which is known generally to cha- racterise British subjects domiciliated in a foreign country, anil amoi % a people of peculiar habits ? — Certainly they are. Are you aware, that by law the juries in the supreme court are com- posed exclusively of British subjects? — Yes, I am; I believe in cases of foreigners they are not. By law, British subjects tried in the supreme courts are tried by j-uriei exclusively consisting of British subjects ? — Certainly they are. In the provincial or district courts of which you have spoken, is the mode of trial by jury established ? — No, because their jurisdiction does not extend to the British European subjects. Would it be possible to introduce into those courts the mode of trial by jury, supposing a condition that the jury must consist of British subjects ? — Certainly nor, in my opinion. Could British subjects be made generally amenable to those district courts, without offence to their national feelings and prejudices? — In cases of life and death, I do not think it is possible, either consistent with British laws or British feeling, that they should be amenable to the country courts; but in all other cases whatsoever, I cannot but think it would be just to the people of India, that those Europeans, who for their own advantage seek a residence among them, with the licence and pro- tection of the Company, should be equally amenable to the country courts, I mean the circuit courts, where European judges preside, as the natives among whom they reside, and whom it is the bounden duty, as is prescribed by the law, that the British government should protect in their religion, their usages, and even their prejudices. Were British subjects made amenable to the jurisdiction of the country courts, however consonant the frequent exercise of that jurisdiction might be to the dictates of justice, would it be in fact agreeable to the natural EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 113 natural feelings and prejudices of Englishmen? — As justice is the first Tbos.Cockbum, principle in the heart of an Englishman, and as Englishmen place them- E sc i- selves in the situations described voluntarily, it is for themselves to con- *— - — v sider whether they will do so, knowing that they will be amenable to trial by their countrymen, who preside in the courts to which I allude. Would the frequent exercise of the jurisdiction alluded to, produce any and what effect upon the opinion of the British character entertained by the natives ? — I have already stated my opinion, that a numerous race of Europeans suffered to pervade the country of India, would have the worst effect, both in regard to the comfort and happiness of the natives, and to the interests of this country, but I am not aware how any great number of Europeans can ever be allowed, or could find any object in resorting to that country, if the laws are executed which preclude them from holding lands, or employing themselves in any way in the cultiva- tion of land; if these were relaxed, and numbers were suffered to proceed into the interior, it would inevitably give rise to an apprehension in the natives, that it was the intention of the English government to suffer them to colonize and ultimately to dispossess them of their lands, which would certainly, in my humble opinion, operate to the destruction of the English empire" in the East ; and so far it would be very prejudicial to the British character, as it would involve British faith. Are there not exceptions to the prohibition of Europeans from holding lands or works in the interior of the country ? — It is the regulation of the government, that no European shall hold lands beyond ten miles from the presidencies of Madras or Bengal, without especial licence of govern- ment; and any European obtaining lands surreptitiously, is liable, by the regulations of the government, to have them taken from him ; and he would thereby incur the penalty of having his licence withdrawn, and of being called back to the presidency. Supposing a number of private vessels admitted into the Indian seas, and the crews of those vessels to land at various ports in the peninsula, do not you conceive many British subjects might be tempted to venture into the interior ? — Unless persons of a description who mean to desert from their ships, I am not aware that it would be probable that many would seek to do so, though some might ; at the sane time I have al- ready explained the risk they would run if they should attempt it. Do any number of British subjects, unprovided by licences by the Company, reside under the presidency of Madras ? — Very few when I Q was Ill MINUTES OF i ■■■' ■ I • iE 7/6 i Cf.cUurn, was in India, and those few I apprehend with, lit the knowledge of Go^ Esq. vernmcnf: it has been a principle in the (>. ■.eminent to discountenance v « > it ; notwithstanding this, no doubt. persons are annually left by the ships, .who, unknown to Government, obtain a residence at the presidencies; but their numbers could not he great, because no persons are suffered to em- balk in English ships, without the licence" of the Company in England, and therefore it could only be some of the officers, or of the crews, of such ships who may he so left behind. When foreign ships import into the ports of India, no doubt persons may in like manner escape from them; but I have no recollection of any particular instances of tins nature. Your India experience extended from 1779 to 1803, or the end of ] 802 ? — Yes. Within that period did you observe whether the number of unlicensed persons increased or not ? — They no doubt very much increased ; but fc am not perhaps correct in saying they were unlicensed ; for all persons resident under Fort Saint George were at one time called upon to take out licences, if they had not brought them out from Eng'and : and I believe they were compelled to return themselves to the town-major's office, under the direction of the government. Do you mean that on that occasion persons who previously resided illegally in the country obtained licences from the government? — Persons who had resided in the country, certainly, so far illegally, that not being licensed originally they were only residents on sufferance, were called upon to take out licences for the purpose of preserving order, and of ascertaining their names, professions, and pursuits. . Were any persons sent home on that occasion ? — I have no recollec- tion of it, it did not fall within my department particularly to know ; I might have heard of such a thing, and I have h<-ard that some persons were sent home, or ordered home ; they were more frequently ordered home than sent home; it is the duty of all others the most onerous that a governor has to perform, that of sending home by force a British sub- ject ; it is one in the execution of which feelings must be very much injured, and it is only in extreme cases that it has been resorted to; it is one also that involves the personal responsibility of a government, and therefore acted upon perhaps not with that severity that circumstances might require it should be. Was your last answer intended to imply, that there is among the Bri- tish EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 115 tlsh residents in India, a general leaning towards each other, and a com- Titos. Corkburn, mon jealousy of coercive proceedings on the part of the government with Esq. respect to individuals of the bod)' ? - ! think there is : in former times, I '' v " have known instances of Europeans being tried for crimes committed Egainst natives, ?nd I am sorry to say that in some instances I have had reason to think that the leaning to their countrymen was too strong: in latter times, I am lfppy to think that this has been greatly got the better of, and that there are many instances of Europeans having suffered death for the murder of natives. , Have you not known that the lower order of Europeans, from igno- rance of the manners and usages of the natives, have committed great offences against their peace and welfare } — t have known some instances where men, either mad or drunk, have committed very great excesses, as soldiers and followers of camps are sometimes liable to do. In a former answer you have stilted that the number of unlicensed residents in that country was limited by the necessity of their proceeding on board the Company's ships, and with previous licence from the Com- pany : do you Lonceive the establishment of an open trade between the outports of this country and the ports of India would tend to augment the number of unlicensed residents in that country? — That would de- pend upon the regulations established for the purpose of preventing that evil, and on the due and strict execution of the regulations in India for the prevention of it. Have you had an opportunity of observing how far the natives of India discover a taste for the use of European manufactures or commudit es o£ any kind ? — Very few, if any, of the British commodities can be con- sumed by the population of India. A few rich individuals may use car- riages ; some few, glasses, watches, &c. and perhaps a little broad-cloth occasionally to cover them in the very colere was a great number of Europeans likely to proceed to that country, that it would be desirable, if possible, to strengthen the hands of government in regard to the removal of them, in case it should be necessay ; I think that a vgilant execution of the regulations that now eKist in India would, generally spe king, tend to prevent -my great number of Emo- peans from finding their way into the interior of the country ; or, if they found their way there, they could not remain long undiscovered, pro'id- ed the magistrate', and all ihe parties whose duty it was to execute the orders of government, were vigilant in no doing. Do -y — "— ^ T-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1 10 Do you know whether it is the uniform practice of the governments iii Thos.'Cockburi', India to enforce a strict attention to the habits and customs,both religious Esq. and civil, of the natives ? — It is and has been their peculiar care ; there is * no pait of the duty of the government of India which has been so anxiously looked to, or which has been more sedulously attended to, lhr.a the preservation of the nathe British subjects of India in the free use of their religion and usages, their customs, convenience and happiness. Tie Committee understood you, in a former part of your examination, to state, that if the laws against colonization were put in force, you were not. aware of any inducements to get people into the interior, or reside there ; are you of opinion that the laws against colonization remaining \% full force in a country like tha r , if the intercourse were left free, there would be any danger of a great resort of Europeans into the interior ? — What I meant in that part of the examination to which the Committee refer was, that I was no: aware of any legitimate object, the Europeans being precluded from possessmg lands, or cultivating lands, which should induce them to reside there ; but men of shattered fortunes, or who hope and seek to obtain fortunes, would nevertheless certainly endeavour, in the hope of obtaining it, to proceed into the interior if they were so permitted. There are many means of employment with the petty princes of the interior, where they might hope to obtain advantages, and that would operate as an inducement to some to seek them : but the diiiicul- ties of doing so, I have already explained ; and probably the number that would attain their object under any circumstances would not be vcry great, if, as I have already observed, there was that vigilance which ought always to be exerted in that country; but when it is considered that I am speaking of a countrv, ] mean British India, which in extent I do not believe to be much less than 320, or 330 thousand square miles, and of a population not much less than sixty millions, it is very difficult to form any correct opinion as to what might be the result of a very great European ingress into the sea-ports of that country. Do you happen to know the fact, that by the existing treaties, I believe with all the native powers, greater and less, no European is allowed to reside at any of their courts, or in their countries, without the permis- sion of the British government ? — There is, I believe, such an article in the treaties, that have been made by the supreme government, with the several parties with whom they have political connection; but as the ob- ject of those parties, I mean the native princes and their subordina'e Zemindars and others, may have a desire to possess the assistance of Europeans in the formation of troops, for purposes perhaps hostile to the very 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thcs. Cockburn, very objects of those treaties, it is by no means improbable, as the British Esq. resident always resides where the native prince resides himself, that many ' v ' Europeans might be collected in the more distant parts of his country. without its being possible for the European resident to ascertain that they were so employed. Have not we residents and agents at all their different courts ? — I be- lieve where the durbar is held we have a resident, but they do not suffer our people to pervade their countries ; and if they wished to form a force with a view to future contests with the English, or even with their neigh- bours, (for they are very often at war with each other, which the English government cannot prevent,) it might become an object for them to en- tice Europeans to their service, whom they think all good soldiers and capable of drilling men, and therefore great encouragement might be held out to adventurers. Our own deserters, and deserters from foreign ships, have found their way into the interior; but that is less likely to happen now than formerly, because the native princes are further removed from the coast than they were formerly: when Hyderand his son Tippoo had possessions on the Malabar coast and the borders of the Carnatic, and when Cuttack belonged to the Marhatta government, it was certainly easier for Europeans to seek such employment, and to obtain more im- mediate shelter than now, when the powers with whom we have subsi- diary treaties are so much further in the interior. If an unlimited intercourse should be allowed with three or four thou- sand miles of coast in India, having innumerable ports where vessels might trade, would it be possible to check the disorders and irregularities likely to arise in such an unrestricted mode of trade? — If by the question I am to understand that an entirely unlimited intercourse should be allowed, not subject to the regulations which I have explained, it would be im- possible to prevent the disorders adverted to; but I have already stated to what extent I conceive the regulations in force, if duly and vigilantly fol- lowed up, would have the effect of preventing any very great degree of disorder from such a trade. If an intercourse with licences should be allowed to the ports of India, would it not be difficult to prevent the traders from eluding all restric- tions and limitations, and to trade and go where it might best suit their purpose ? — I think it would be very difficult for them, under the circum- stances I have explained, to get into the interior of the country. Might they not trade along the coast where they pleased ? — There coutd be EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 121 %e no restraint on that, because a ship could touch at all the ports with- Thos.Cockburih out the power of prevention. Esq. If an intercourse with licences should be allowed to the ports of India, would it not be difficult to prevent the traders from eluding all restric- tions and limitations, and to trade and go where it might best suit their purposes ? — If it is meant by the question, that the licences authorize them to import at particular ports of India only, there is certainly no- thing that could prevent their going to any other port if they thought proper; but I believe when ships are insured, the ports where they are to impart are mentioned, and any deviation would forfeit the insurance. Is it your opinion that in case there should be an open intercourse with the coast of India, that many or most of the vessels going to that coast would be disappointed in their expectations of commercial advantages ? — It is a question that really I cannot answer, unless I knew what their expectations and hopes were. Expectations of commercial advantages ?— If I were to give a general opinion upon the subject, I certainly should say, that any persons who expected great advantages from that trade, with respect to the sale of the exports of this country, would be disappointed ; but they may have other objects in view, in which they may succeed, that I am not acquaint- ed with. Do you believe that if they went to India with the means of providing & cargo for export, that they would be likely to be disappointed ? — If they went to India with a cargo of goods from this country in the hopes- of obtaining by the sale of that cargo a return cargo for England, I be- lieve that they would be under the necessity of selling such cargo to great disadvantage, so as to enable them to get an early return cargo, I mean without the necessity of detaining their ships longer than they otherwise would do in India ; but if they carried specie for the purpose of procuring a cargo, I have not the smallest doubt that they would, as early as they could wish it themselves, obtain a cargo and return to this country. Is it not your opinion, that many ships going there, in the way they are likely to go, without all that knowledge you possess, that many of them will not be. diappointed ? — I cannot take upon me to say; I have answered that question before ; generally, I gave what was my humble opinion upon the subject. R Your *^_ 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Cockburrt, Your opinion was, that they would be disappointed in the expectation Esq. of selling their cargo ? — Yes. Is it your opinion, that under the general circumstances you have stated, there would not be a considerable number of those vessel* that would be greatly disappointed, and get into situations of great: distress? — I really do not know ; they would be disappointed if they did not make a good voyage ; but I am not aware of any distress they could get into from it, except that of not finding the trade advantageous and answering their expectations. Is it your opinion, that those traders from the outports who may go to India and be disappointed in their expectations, might not commit great df predations and violences on the natives, and ultimately become pirati- cal, as was the case in the reign of King William ? — At the period al- luded to, we had only the possession of factories in India; we had no navy and no political power. I do not think in these days it would be possible for any English ship to pervade the Indian seas as a pirate, with- out being captured, if information was obtained of her proceedings, and of course the parties punished. But it is possible, as has happened in various parts of the inlands in the East, that some few of the command- ers of ships may maltreat the people with whom they have dealings, or unintentionally injure them by some part of their proceedings, and then they will certainly be liable to the natives endeavouing to assert their right, as they conceive, if they have the power, of taking vengeance into their own hands, as has sometimes occurred on the Malay coast ; but I should suppose that a few examples of that kind would prevent their fre- quent recurrence. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then THOMAS SYDENHAM, Esq. is called in; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : T/ios S denham (^J Counsel) How long were you in the service of the East-India l^n. ' Company ? — About twelve years. ->s~ In the military or civil service ? — In the military service. At which of the presidencies ? — At the presidency of Madras. While -v-^ EAST-INDIA COMPANY^ AFFAIRS, 123 AVhile you were in India were you employed upon many diplomatic Titos. Sydenham, missions ? — I was employed as Secretary of Legation at the Courts of Esq. Poonah and Hydrabad : afterwards acting resident at Poonah, and fur * five years resident at Hydrabad. Were you acquainted with the Persian and Hindostanee Languages ? — Yes, I was. From your long residence in the interior of Hindostan, and your ac- quaintance with the languages of that country, were you enabled to make accurate observations upon the character, manners, and habits of the natives ? — Being accustomed to transact business for many years with the natives, I should suppose that I have had opportunities of forming an opinion with regard to their character and habits. From your knowledge of the character and habits of the natives, and the usual conduct of Europeans arriving in that country without a know- ledge of either their languages or their characters, are you of opinion that if a free trade w r ere opened between this country and India, and English- men were suffered to enter into the interior of India, and to reside in it at their pleasure, that it would be attended with any mischievous conse- quences, either to the natives or to the English Government of that country ? — Certainly an unrestricted and unlimited intercourse would be productive of great danger to the government of the country ; and I am of opinion that any intercourse between Europeans and the natives of that country, that was not limited and very much restricted, might be produc- tive of mischievous consequences. From your knowledge of the habits and wants of the natives of that country, do you think that in the event of a free trade there would be any materially encreased demand, among the natives ol India, for European manufactures or articles ? — I do not think that there would be any material increase of demand, whether the trade remained in its present situation or were thrown open. Are you of opinion, that in the event of a free trade, there would be any great increased demand for European commodities ? — Certainly not ; I do not see how the demand is to be at all increased by the opening of the trade : the demands of course take place from the wants of the natives there. R 2 Is -V" 124 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Sydenham, Is it your opinion, that the natives of Hindostan have, to any great E-q. degree, either the want or desire for European articles ? — Certainly not. i Did you negotiate, on the part of the Company, a commercial treaty with the Nizam ? — I was a Secretary of Legation at Hydrabad, when that treaty was negotiated by my predecessor, Colonel Kirkpartrick. Was there any demand for European articles in that part of the country ;■ do you apprehend they might be procured by the natives of it, through the intervention of the present system ? — The average demands from the whole of the Nizam's dominions, for goods of European manufacture, for the last ten years, before that treaty was negotiated, amounted to about two lacs of rupees a year, or twenty-four thousand pounds a year, which they generally procured from Bombay ; and of course which they could have no difficulty in procuring, to that or to a much greater extent, provided there was any further demand. Are you of opinion that if there were any increased demand for European commodities among the natives of India, that they could procure them, according to the present system, without any difficulty ? — Certainly, with- out any difficulty ; for at every period that I recollect, the warehouses of the Company, especially at Bombay, have been filled with goods, which the Government have been able to sell only a very small proportion of ; there is no want of goods in the Company's warehouses, provided there were a sufficient number of consumers. From your knowledge of the natives of Hindostan, do you think there is any probability of their being induced to purchase, to any extent, woollens the manufacture of this country ? — I think not ; the woollens of this country are in use only with a few of the Hindoos, and many of the Mussulmen of high rank ; but to the other classes of the community the manufacture of what is called a comley, I believe, is considered by them- selves as comfortable as any kind of cloak they could have of the woollen, and must be always much cheaper. With respect to the higher ranks in that country, what manufactures have they similar, in their use, to our finer woollens ? — I know of none but the various kinds of shawls. Then they supply the use of the woollens by quilting their silks. (Examined by the Committee.) Are you aware that there are existing treaties with the higher powers irr India., EAST-INDIA COMPANTS AFFAIRS. 123 India, and within the more subordinate, which preclude the intercourse of Thos.St/den/iam, Europeans with the natives, without the permission of the Company's Esq. Government ? — Certainly. ^""" * y — =— ' Do you believe that the conditions of those treaties are adequate for the purpose for which they were made ? — Certainly, within those dominions. Within the dominions of those princes ? — Yes ; but I would beg leave to qualify my answer by saying, I only know of two treaties, that with the Peishwa y and that with the Nizam. The Witness is directed to withdrawn- Then ROBERT MORRIS, Esq. is called in; and, having been sworn, ft i ert Morris, is examined as iollows : j?sq. 1 V — J CBy Counsel.) You have had experience in trading with India in a private capacity ?— Yes, I have. Have you visited any part of British India ? — I have been ten different voyages to India in the Company's ships. To China ? — I have been to all parts ; not for last fifteen years to China, liostly to Bengal. : How lately was the last of those voyages made ?— About nine years ago. Since that period have you had any opportunity of commercial commu- nication with that country? — I have been constantly acting as an agent principally to that country. In what capacity did you 1 repair to India in the voyages you have mentioned ? — Six voyages as surgeon, and four as purser of a regular ship. Was it as a surgeon on board the ships ef the Company ? — On board the ships of the Company all the time. W T ere you, while acting in that capacity, allowed an opportunity of trading on your own account in any degree ? — During the time I was- purser, my whole time was employed in trading. When lio MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Morris, When you repaired to India as surgeon, had you any opportunity of Esq. trading? — Considerable opportunity. „ 1 What articles were they which you in general exported for the supply of the markets of India? — Generally for the consumption of the Europeans of that country, such as are generally used by Europeans in this. Will you describe what, generally speaking, formed the principal articles in the assortment which you took out ? — I can only describe such as are generally used in this country ; almost every article made use of by Europeans in this country, wearing apparel of every description, and for the use of the table ; it is hardly possible to enumerate them. Did any articles enter largely into those assortments for the use of the native population of British India? — Very few, some few of ironmongery, cutlery, hardware, a little fine glass, and a few woollens. Was the smallness of the number of articles so described, occasioned by the narrowness of the market for them in British India ? — The demand was small for them in proportion to the others, in value probably one tenth. Do you state that as the genera! proportion ? — I conceive it as generally the proportion. Is it within your knowledge, whether other persons trading in the same Capacity have taken out about the same proportion of articles for the use of the natives ? — I believe it is generally the case. Is it within your knowledge, whether during the period in which you had this commercial communication with India, there was a growing de- mand, on the part of the native population, for European commodities ? —I do not think there was, in any considerable degree. Had you an opportunity of observing from what circumstances, in the character or condition of the natives, it arose, that they furnished so con- tracted a demand for articles of European manufacture ? — I believe they do not, generally, make use of them. You have stated thnt some small proportion of every assortment consisted of articles for the use of the native population ; can you state by what part ot the native papulation those articles were, in fact, generally used ? — I have EAST-1NDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 127 have never been in the interior of the country, and am, therefore, not Robert Morris, capable of answering the question. ksq. Are you able to state in what parts of the country those articles were generally u-ied ? — I believe mojtly in those parts connected with Europeans. To what class of men, European or native, were those exports ge- nerally disposed of, in the first instance ? — To both Europeans and natives. To what class of persons of either description ? — Shopkeepers, who purchase them to retail out again to the public. Were they disposed of to the shopkeepers at the different presidencies? ■ — Yes. Are those shopkeepers Europeans or natives ? — Both, principally native. Was it within your information whether the markets of British India ■were fully supplied with commodities for the use of the native population, ' provided there had existed any demand for those commodities ? — I think they could have been supplied, had the demand been greater. You have mentioned that cutlery and hardware formed a part of your assortment ? — The principal part for the natives. Could you have disposed of an entire cargo of articles of that descrip- tion ? — No, a very small one indeed. Did you ever export woollens to that country in any degree ?— Wool- lens are generally sent out by the Company, and confined to them alone, except a very small proportion of late. Do you conceive that the sale of woollens could be extended in that country ? — Not much, for I have been in the habit, of late, of sending out considerable quantities of woollens, to supply orders from that country. During what period have you so sent them out ? — The last six years. I believe the captains of the ships in the service of the Company are allowed opportunities of private trade ? — They are allowed opportunities of private trade, the captains and officers. Do 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Morrh, Do you conceive that every effort has been made by that class of persons Esq. to promote, as far as in them lay, the consumption of European commo- ( ^ / dities by the natives of India ? — It is their interest to carry out as much as they possibly can ; therefore I conceive they would do every thing they possibly could to increase the consumption. In what degree have you, within the last six years of which you have spoken, had an opportunity of ascertaining how tar the consumption or Eu- ropean manufactures could be extended among the natives of India ?— I consider full as much as when I was in the service, in a very considerable degree. Describe how ? — Being settled as an agent in this country, I have been in the constant habits of receiving orders from India to send out goods. From the experience you have had, during that interval, do you conceive there is much prospect of an extension of an export trade of the articles described ? — Not under the present circumstances of the country, I mean unless there are a greater number of Europeans to consume them. Supposing it to be the fact, that the exports of European articles to In- dia have, of late years, been considerably augmented, do you conceive that such augmentation has been owing to any increased consumption of Euro- pean commodities amongst the natives of India ? — I do not; or in a very small degree, probably some few articles, such as fine glass ware for orna- ments for their houses, but of no others that I am acquainted with. Do you, in describing the hopelessness of increasing this trade, speak merely from your own experience, or also from your knowledge of the experience of others who have been concerned in the same traffic with yourself? — From both. Were there any hope of profitably extending that export trade of which you bave spoken, would you and other traders in the same depart- ment employ a good deal more capital in the prosecution of it? — I cer- tainly would myseir. Are you of opinion that there is much hope of profitably extending that trade ? — I do not at present see any prospect. Do \pu conceive that the hopelessness of extending that trade arises from any peculiar inconveniences in the system under which the export must EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 129 must now be made, or from a smallness of demand for the articles in India, Robert Morris, arising from permanent causes ? — From the demand for the articles in India not being equal to the quantity generally carried out by the com- v — manders and officers of the ships. Are you of opinion that an increased facility of export would materially increase the demand for the article in India ? — Not in any material degree. Do you conceive, therefore, that if the trader were to load and send his own ship with a cargo of European articles, that cargo would be likely to find a market among the natives of British India? — I do not ; among the natives, not more than at present. Were the traders, under the circumstances described, to send a cargo of such articles of hardware as are occasionally used by the natives, do you suppose that the concern would prove profitable ? — On the contrary, I con- ceive, that if the cargo was considerable, it would prove a great loss. Is the Committee to understand that answer as confined to articles of hardware, or as embracing all such articles as occasionally find a con- sumption among the natives of India ? — All such articles as occasionally find a consumption among the native population. Are you of opinion that any saving that might be effected by the insu- rance ot such private vessels, or in any other manner by the speculation being left exclusively to the alacrity of a private trader, would compensate for the loss upon the sale in the markets of British India ? — I certainly do not. Is it your opinion, that individual houses could send out many ships to India profitably, in the event of an open trade being established ? — I should think not. Do you conceive, it would be found convenient for several houses to join in making up a cargo for the Indian market ? — I hardly conceive it would be worth their while, the quantity required is so small. Do you conceive that the insurance upon private vessels the navigating Indian seas, would be higher or lower than the rate of insurance on the ships of the Company ?— It would be higher. From what causes do you conceive that that advancement would be necessary ? — Beer use they could not afford either to man them so well, or arm them so wel', in the time of war, and the ships themseives could neither be of that strength nor capacity which the Company's ships are of. S On 130 \INUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Morris, On the supposition, therefore, that a great number of private vessels Esq. should clear out to India with cargoes intended for the consumption of the *— — , — ' native Indians, do you conceive that such a speculation would prove pro- fitable, or otherwise? — I conceive it would not prove profitable. Do you conceive, that in the event of an open trade, any great expec- tations entertained by British manufacturers of an increased market for their products in India, would be realized or disappointed ?— I conceive they would be disappointed. {Examined by the Committee!) You have mentioned that you had many opportunities of trading, both while you were surgeon and while you were purser; did you trade to the full amount, or beyond the amount, of privileged tonnage, which you were allowed as an officer? — The four voyages that I was purser, I had a prin- cipal share with the captain, one-third or one-fourth ol his whole tonnage. Had you not privileged tonnage as a surgeon ? — Very small tonnage Will you take upon yourself to say, that a private merchant could not freight a ship to India cheaper than the India Company's ships are now freighted? — He could certainly freight a few pounds per ton cheaper, probably on the outward and homeward voyage four or five pounds per ton cheaper during war. I speak from experience. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then JAMES HORSBURGH, Esquire, is called in ; and, "having been sworn, is examined as follows: /. Horsburgh, [By Counsel) Were you a free mariner under a licence from the East E-'T- India Company? — Yes. * r For what length of time ?— About twenty years I was in India. As a free mariner, did you command a Company's ship trading in those seas ? — Yes. r I believe you are at this time hydrographer to the East-India Company ? — I am. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 131 Are you, from your own experience, well acquainted with all those seas, -/. Hcrsburgli, and the ports of them ? — In a nautical view I am. Esq. Are you likewise acquainted in a trading point of view : — In some places. . . Will you state what parts of those seas you are well acquainted with ? — I was mostly in the China trade. By that you mean the trade between India and China ? — From Bombay and Bengal to China, and also 10 Batavia. Are you also well acquainted with the trade to the Eastern Islands? — I have been several times among the Eastern Islands in my voyages to China. Have you, in the course of those voyages, explored those islands,, and their ports, with a view to commerce ? — Not particularly so. Will you state to the Committee by whom and in what manner the trade within the East-India Company's Charter, commonly called the country trade, is carried on ; is it not by free merchants and free mariners under licence from the Company ? — Yes ; certainly. Does it come within your knowledge that those free merchants and free mariners explore every port of those seas for the purposes of commerce ? — Yes ; they certainly do. . Do you believe that there is any port of those seas unexplored by them for those purposes ? — I think not. Are you acquainted with what articles of European manufacture, if any, are carried to the Eastern Islands by such traders? — There is very little wanted of European manufacture or even from Hindostan, a little cutlery, a few looking-glasses, and some chintz of different kinds for the wear of the Malays. What are the assortments of cargoes that are usually made by the mer- . chants of India to go to the Eastern Llands? — They depend prncipally upon opium with some piece goods from Bengal of iifferent kinds; but the sale of opium is the article they principally depend on. S 2 Do y- 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE J. Horsburgh, Do you mean that to the assortment of cargoes you have just mentioned, Esq. they add a kw things such as cutlery ?— No ; chintz or light piece goods, S- M » and things of that kind, and opium ; they may carry iron and cutlery in a very small quantity. Are you of opinion that it would be possible to freight a ship with an European cargo, to trade with any prospect of advantage in those Eastern I-land^?— No, I think they must make a losing voyage. I can state a recent instance of a person, a particular friend of mine, who went from Bengal on a speculative voyage, in places where ships did not frequent ; he went to Gilolo, one of the Moluccas, the south coast of Mindanao, and several other of the islands to the eastward, with a cargo selected from Calcutta, and made a losing voyage by the speculation. Are you acquainted with the climate of those Eastern Islands, whether it is warm or cold? — Very warm; the equator passing over those seas completely, makes very little if any apparel necessary for the natives. Is it your opinion that English woollens could ever be in demand in those islands ?— Never, I conceive. Do the natives manufacture any clothing for themselves ? — Yes, they do. Will you state what sort of clothing that is ? — Light cotton stuffs of different patterns. Will you state what is the general character and temper of the natives of those islands ; whether they are barbarous or civilized, and whether they are hostile to Europeans, or friendly ? — They are naturally I believe a very passionate people, and that disposition I believe is very much increased from their sufferings by the Dutch. It has been a maxim with the Dutch government, when they found the natives of any of the villages trading with English ships, or ships of any other country but Dutch, to send some of their cruizers with troops to burn and destroy those villages. Have any circumstances, according to your knowledge or information, happened of late years, to make any of the inhabitants of those islands peculiarly hostile to the English? —I do not know from my own experience, having left India about seven years ago. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that the rajahs of those islands are jealous of the commerce of English ships ?— If those English ships did not EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 133 not trade with the rajahs, but were to trade clandestinely with their /. Horshurgh, subjects without the approbation of the rajahs. Esq. < v ' I believe the rajahs receive duties upon such commerce ? — Yes. Have you ever known instances of their revenging themselves on persons who have carried on clandestine commerce ?— Yes, I have. Will you state those instances ? — The particular instances I cannot recall to my memory, but I know of great numbers of ships that have been taken by natives out of revenge for the dealings of the commanders on former voyages. Do you know instance f captains having been assassinated by those rajahs from that cause ? — Yes. Can you name any instance, do you remember the name of any captain ? — Captain Pavin was assassinated at Sooloo. From your knowledge of those islands, and the trade carried on from India to them, what in your opinion is the best mode of conducting such trade ? — I think by our government of Batavia, and that of Prince of Wales Island, sending the most intelligent of the natives with missions to the different rajahs, inviting them in a friendly manner to come with their praos to such settlements in order to trade. Are you then of opinion that inviting their praos to our settlements is a more advantageous and safe mode of carrying on that trade, than by ex- ploring their ports ourselves ? — Yes, and I can state the reasons ; their praos go round to different ports amongst the different islands, where they collect a cargo of small articles on purpose to exchange for returns from Prince of Wales island or Batavia, which a ship cannot with propriety do, for a ship to go among those islands from Europe would have to retail her cargo amongst the different islands, and she might be six or seven months probably in doing so, and after all would not be able to dispose of her cargo in that retailed manner amongst the different islands. In the event of a free trade being opened with India, is it your opinion that the demand for English articles or manufactures in those seas would be increased to any material degree ? — I think not, without the natives are altered in disposition and habits. (Examined 1S4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE (Examined by the Committee.) I Hordiuvh ^° y ou su PP 03e it probable that any merchants of this country, wh® Eg a would inquire into the state of the trade in those islands, would be likely to ( , ] i embark in a commercial speculation from Europe there? — If it were left to me 1 should not do it myself, certainly ; I should rather go to Batavia, or Prince of Wales island, with my cargo. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then CHARLES BULLER Esquire, M. P. is called in ; and having been sworn, is examined as follows : Charles Duller, (By Counsel). How long have you been in the civil service of the Esq. M. P. East India Company ? — One and twenty years. In what department of that service, and under what presidency ? — In Bengal, and in the revenue department. Are you still in the service of the East-India Company ? — Certainly. In the course of your official duties in that country, have you resided a good deal in the interior of the Bengal provinces? — In Calcutta princi- pally, not very much in the interior. Have you, during your residence in Bengal, had opportunities to observe the character of the natives? — Certainly, I have had an op- portunity. Do you think, if a free trade were enacted by law, and Englishmen were allowed to enter into and to reside in the interior of the country without restraint, it would produce any and what ill effects to the hap- piness of the natives, or to the security of the government there ? — I conceive that it would produce very ill effects; that it would be the cause of great oppression and tyranny towards the natives ; and that it would be prejudicial to the British name, and consequently to the British interest. It has occurred to me, in two instances, in the course of two months, to recommend to government, that" two gentlemen might be sent out of the district where they resided ; now these came accidentally before me, in my official capacity, as I had nothing to do with the superintendence of those gentlemen, nor with the general police of the country; but when any question arose whether they held lands directly or indirectly, such questions were always sent to the board of revenue to EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 133 to report upon, and in these two instances, the acts of oppression com- mitted againtst the ryots were so great, that I believe we suggested to government, whether it was proper that people of that kind should be allowed to remain in that country ; and I believe they were removed in consequence; I know they were ordered. Were the persons you speak of, persons licensed to reside by the Com- pany in the interior of the country ? — I think they were. Had not the Company been empowered by law to remove those persons, are you of opinion the mischief they might have produced iii the country might have, been very great ?— -Certainly, there is no doubt of that I suppose. Are you of opinion that it.would have been very difficult, or even im- practicable, for the natives to obtain any adequate justice against them except by such removal ? — I think they might have taken the law into their own hands, as they did in one or two instances ; in one it was attended with the actual murder, and in the other not actual murder, but very near it, very severe wounds. Are you acquainted with the confusions that took place in consequence of the misconduct of the indigo planters about two or three years ago ? — I do not particularly know to what you refer ; I have spoken generally, that I have known many of those instances occur ; but I do not know to what the question particularly alludes. The Committee understand there was some misconduct in the indigo planters some years ago ; they wish to know whether it came to your knowledge ? — No, not that I recollect. Are you of opinion, that if a free trade were opened with India, there would be any increased demand among the natives of that country for European articles or manufactures?— Very little, if any, I should siappose so. "What are your reasons for that opinion ? — From the general poverty of the people, and from their not having any wish, as I have seen, to have our articles, generally speaking. Do you mean that, in your opinion, the more opulent of the natives havelittle wish for our articles? — Very little ; what I should observe on that is, that where I have seen natives possess European articles, they have Charles Bitller; Esq. M.P. I > 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Charles Buller, ha\ tbeen rather of the mean or trumpery kind j in fact I should suppose Esq. M. 1*. that they did not buy them at the Europe shops, as we call them, but at v ■> the outcry of some gentleman when he was going home. Are you of opinion, according to your observation when in India, that the supply of European articles in that country is fully equal to the demand by the natives ? — The Bazars abound with those articles, as far as I have seen. Are you of opinion, that if from any cause there were any increased demand, the present system would be fully adequate to the supply of it ? — I should suppose the present system is sufficient, as far as I can suppose any cause will happen. [Examined by the Committee.) Is it your opinion, that the proposition for changing the East- India system tends to establish those territories as colonies ? — I should suppose a great number of Europeans would come into the country, and it would be very difficult to prevent their marrying and having children, and those children being brought up in the country, in that manner I suppose it may lead to colonization. Has it not always been considered as highly necessary policy to check or prevent as much as possible our East-India possessions from being on the footing of becoming colonists? — I have always understood it so. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then the Honourable HUGH LINDSAY is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : Honourable (^ Counsel). You are in the marine service of the East-India Com- Bugh Lindsay. P an y ? ~ Yes - How many voyages have you made to India as commander of a ship ? • — Six to India and one to China. When you say to India, to what part of India do you mean ? — I have been five voyages to Bengal, and one to Madras. I be- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 137 1 believe the captains of the Company's ships trade on their own Honourable account in some degree f — They do. Hugh Lindsay, Do they take out their goods free of freight ? — They do. Can you judge, from your own experience, how far articles of Euro- pean manufacture find a sale among the natives of India ? — I consider that the investments are fully sufficient for the demand ; indeed rather more so, as I have invariably found that there has been a glut ot the market every season I have been in India ; I mean towards the latter part. What proportion of the assortment which you usually made, consisted of goods for the consumption of the native Indians, and what for the consumption of Europeans resident in India? — The investments were generally sold to people who retailed them, and I conceive that they Were entirely for the consumption of the Europeans, and in a very trifling degree for the natives. To what class of persons were the investments Usually sold, on arriving in India ? — Sometimes to European retailers, and sometimes to native retailers. Were they sold in the mass ?— When the market was tolerably good they were sold by the mass ; but in the latter parts of the season, very often by the hammer. As far as your observation and experience go, can you say whether Indian markets were fully supplied with European commodities h — I c the con- sider, to the full extent. Do you imagine, or conceive, that the consumption of European manu- factures is likely to be much extended among the natives? — I do not think it is likely to be much extended. I have, at various times, endeavoured to obtain information on that subject with the natives, and I begged they woJd inquire whether any new article could be sent, and their answer was, that their retail was for the Europeans, not for the natives. (By a Lord.)— Those are the shopkeepers ?— The shopkeepers. (By Counsel). — Do you conceive that the scantiness of the native de- mand for European commodities arises from permanent peculiarities in the taste of the natives ? — From their peculiarities, not wanting what is exported from this country, except in a few staples, T Is ] 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Honourable Is it your opinion that the exportation of European manufactures to Hugh Lindsay. India could ever take place with any hope of a much increased consump- v ^ > tion amongst the natives ? — As far as I can judge, 1 should think it will not increase. Can you state what were those articles in the investment which you usu- ally took out, which were calculated for consumption by the natives ? — Iron, steel, some glass ware, and a few looking-glasses. Have you had any opportunity of seeing what prospect of trade is afforded by the Eastern islands ? — In the year 1801, I was senior captain of eight sail of ships bound to Bengal, and after a very long passage, we put into . Acheen head, and although we had every article on board that is exported from this country to the Edst, yet we could not find articles of any de- scription by which we could pay the Malays for the cattle we received for our refreshments. Is it a fact that the Malays have no great want for European manufac- tures ? — I think they have less wants than the natives of India. The Committee need scarcely therefore ask, whether, in your contem- plation, there is likely to be any increase in the export of manufactures to these islands ? — I should think not. Do you conceive that the trade between this country and the Eastern islands would labour under any other difficulties than those arising from the want of a demand on the part of the natives? — I should think very great, from the manner in which I conceive ships would be navigated from this country, and from the people who did navigate them not under- standing in any degree the language of the Malays, I should consider that they would run every risk of being cut off, as many people have been who well understood the language and habits of the people of those islands. Is the character of the Malays violent and ferocious ? — I think ex- tremely so. Treacherous? — I think that the government they have been under by the Dutch, has in a great measure occasioned that ; the Dutch on many occasions have treated them very severely for having intercourse with ships of other countries, and I have understood that they have burnt their vessels; and it seems that they did not understand the distinction between the European nations. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 139 Do you conceive they are generally suspicious of European nations ? — Honourable I should think so, certainly. Hugh Lindsay. (Exatnined by the Committee.) ^^ How long was you in the Company's service before you became a commander ? — I was three voyages, occupying about six years. Do you think it advantageous for the commander of a vessel employed in the India trade, that he should have been previously engaged in a voyage there before he has a command of a ship, with a view to his understanding the proper subordination in which he should keep his men for the purpose of preventing any disputes with the natives ? — Most certainly ; I should think it was necessary he should perform a certain number of voyages be- fore he was qualified to command a ship. It is not meant the navigation of a ship, but with a view to the dealings with the natives ? — I should think it was necessary that he should acquire a knowledge of the natives also. Is it your opinion, that ships going from the outports to India are likely in general to be disappointed in their expectations in respect to the sale of the cargo ? — I should think to a very great degree indeed. Is it your opinion that, thus disappointed, they might be very liable to commit great depredations and violences on the natives along the coast ? — That is a question I should hardly feel myself disposed to answer ; it would depend upon the character of the captains, and it would also de- pend upon the restraint they kept their crew under. Have there not of late years been a great number of extra ships taken up tor the Company that were commanded by persons not regularly, like yourself, from the Company's service ? — I believe no extra ships have been commanded but by Company's officers regularly bred ; sometimes the ships that have been taken up to go to Botany Bay have not been so command- ed, nor should I class them as extra ships ; there is a scale of qualification for the officers of extra ships. They are not of the highest class, I suppose ? — No. The witness is directed to withdraw. It being then proposed to adjourn this Committee to Monday next ; The same is agreed to, and ordered accordingly. T 2 Die 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Die Lance, 12° Aprilis 1813. The Earl or Buckinghamshire in the Chair. Order of adjournment read. The counsel are called in. The proceedings of this Committee on Thursday last arc read. Then STEPHEN RUMBOLD LUSHINGTON, Esq. M. P. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : S.R.L'ishingioti, (By Counsel.) — State to the Committee how long you were in the East Esq. M. 1 J . India Company's service ? — About eleven years. "V Upon which of the establishments ? — The Madras establishment. In what department of that establishment were you principally em- ployed ? — I was first employed in the political department, and afterwards as secretary to the board of revenue ; and then superintendent of the southern provinces ; and afterwards as registrar to the Sudder Adawlut. Will you explain to the Committee the nature of the office you exercised as superintendent in the southern provinces ? — As superinten- dent of the southern provinces, it was my duty to administer justice to the inhabitants, and at the same time to collect the revenue ; those functions not having been then separated upon the coast establishment. When you went into those provinces for the purpose of exercising the office, will you state what was the situation of those provinces, with respect to order and government ? — Nothing could be more disturbed or more disorderly than the state of those provinces : the districts were overrun by plunderers, professing to be in the pay of the Polygar chief- tains ; and the Company's authority was continually in conflict with that of EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 14 I of the Nabob. No effectual measures could then be adopted for rescuing S'.R. Lushing lorn the districts from that state of anarchy and confusion, and restoring them Psq. M. P. to a state of subordination and prosperity. Property was insecure, and * v ' the persons of the people exposed to every species of violence and outrage, It was my misfortune also to receive charge of the district at a period of great scarcity, and this affliction aggiavated all the evils which I have described. I should state also, that the Polygar Peons were extremely numerous and very well armed ; and the Polygars themselves nearly in a state of rebellion against the Company's government. In what year was this ? — In 1 799. Were any effectual steps taken, during your superintendence, to reduce those settlements to order and good government? — When the war with Tippoo broke out, the Polygars took up arms against the Company's government throughout the whole of the district, and their state of licentiousness was so intolerable and so oppressive to the people, that the earliest opportunity was taken, upon the close of the Mysore campaign, to endeavour to reduce those refractory chieftains to the authority of civil government ; the Company's troops were employed against them, and succeeded after some months in punishing the rebellious ; and my attention, as a civil officer of government, was subsequently d'rected to the collection of their arms, and to assisting in dismantling their forts; I was also instructed to increase the tribute they had paid to the Com- pany's government, it being the opinion of the Company's administration, that the superabundant wealth which they had possessed, was one of the most fruitful sources of their disobedience and turbulence. The divided state of power exercised over the Polygars, under the treaty of the Nabob of the Carnatic of 1792, had also greatly aggravated all the disorders in that country, and retarded the application, of an effectual remedy. This obstruction had been recently removed by explicit orders from the Court of Directors, founded upon the recommendation and reasoning of the Right Hon. Lord Hobart. Under those instructions, full authority was given to me to negociate with the Polygars, for the increase of that tiibute; and I had the happiness of succeeding in a manner satisfactory to the government, very much to the relief of the people, and I believe to the comfort of the Polygars themselves; for I have understood that the dispatches received at successive periods from India, since that time, have proved that the Polygars have conducted themselves in the most obedient manner, and that the ryots of the sur- rounding districts are relieved from those evils under which they formerly suffered. Are 143 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE S.R.Lus/iin^lon, Are you of opinion, that the measure you have stated, of disarming Esq. M. P. those districts, was effectual in reducing them to good order ; and the 1 -^ > continuance of their being disarmed necessary to maintain that order ? — I thought, whilst I was in India, from the number of arms collected, and all the inquiries I made, that the measure was effectual ; and a report that J have recently seen from the judge of circuit in that province, states, that they are in the highest condition of cultivation, and that the military troops have literally turned their pikes and matchlocks into the plough- share ; but the same report suggests, that there still exists the greatest necessity for caution and vigilance in preventing their regaining arms ; and my own experience and recollection convinces me of the absolute necessity of this precaution. Had you, while you were in those districts, and generally during your residence in India, opportunities of observing the character, manners, and habits of the natives ? — -I certainly had opportunities. If, in consequence of the enactment of a free trade between this country and India, an influx of Europeans into that country were to take place, are you of opinion it would produce any mischievous conse- quences ? — An unrestrained influx must undoubtedly produce the most mischievous consequences, because there can be nothing more adverse than the feelings and manners of Europeans, and the customs and pre- judices of India. If by licence of the Company, Europeans were permitted to go into the interior of that country, do you think it would be attended with pernicious consequences ? — The degree of danger would depend upon the number, and upon the personal character, of the traders so licensed, and upon the regulations which might be established for restraining them. Would there, in your opinion, be any danger in that case, of intrigues with the Polygars, if many persons were to go into the country ? — I think that danger would depend also very much upon the state of the country at the time ; if there were temptations to turbulence from the external relations of the Company, the presence of Europeans, having no interest in the welfare of the Company, and owing no special authority to the government, would be dangerous. In your opinion, would it be safe to allow private traders to go from port to port on that coast ? — I think the safety or danger would depend very EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 14-3 very much upon the number of the private traders, the regulations under S.E.Lwhi'ngtoT?, which their intercourse was permitted, and very much also upon the Ksq. M. P. vigilance of the superintending authority in the province. * v Will yoa state whether, in your opinion, opening the trade to India would produce any, and what, mischievous effect upon the civil service of the Company ? — I think opening the trade would have a mischievous effect upon the civil service of the Company, if the result of the competition between the private traders and the Company should be to induce the Company wholly to forego their commercial concerns; and my opinion is founded upon this reasoning : I think there is no country in the world, where the success or the miscarriage of the measures of government de- pend so much upon the personal qualities of the officers employed, as in India ; for, separated as they are at a great distance from the government, and compelled to act continually from their own resources without the opportunity of taking advice, it is of the greatest importance that they should possess all the qualifications necessary to fulfil the trust committed to them. The service, as now constituted, admits of a selection for political, judicial, and revenue trusts ; that selection is made bom amongst the most intelligent of the Company's servants, whilst those of a different class are generally employed in the commercial departments ; the abandonment of the Company's commerce would narrow this selection, and the servants must be more indiscriminately employed in offices of the greatest trust and difficulty. From your observation of the natives of Hindostan, are you of opinion that the mass of the population have either the means or the desire of procuring any European manufactures or articles ? — Does the question refer to the districts in which I have been, or to the mass of the population in India? To the mass of the population in India which you had an opportunity of seeing ? — In the Southern Provinces of the Peninsula, the mass ot the population consists of Hindoos; there are very tew Mahometans amongst the Hindoos : there is no desire for European articles, and I believe there are few parts of India where the primitive manners and customs of the Hindoos are preserved so unmixed as in Tinnevelly and in the Southern Provinces ; I think the Hindoo there is at this day what he was two thousand years ago. The laspe of twenty centuries, as far as my obser- vation and reading will enable me to judge, have made no change in his habits, his customs, or in his civil or religious condition : his diet is frugal and simple ; his hut is composed of mud and cocoa-tree leaves, and a few bamboos ; and a small strip of cloth is all the garment that he uses. I cannot 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE S.RLushin«tov t cannot therefore trace amongst any of the classes of the population of the Esq. M.P. Southern Provinces any desire for European articles; the means of pur- t chasing such articles they do not possess ; and the price of labour is so low, the raw materials are also so cheap, that I despair that the manufactures of this country, where labour is so much higher, and the material not the produce of this country, can ever be sent there to advantage tor native consumption. Are you of opinion that if a free trade were allowed, there might not be danger of a demand for fire arms by the natives of that country, and that they might possibly be supplied with them ? — I have no doubt of the demand for fire arms, and that compying with that demand would be a measure of the utmost danger; nor should I have conceived it possible that any doubt had existed upon this subject, if I had not seen a printed paper anticipating, on the part of the private traders, an open market in India for the sale of their fire arms. Will you state whether it is the practice of the government of the East- India Company to collect any part of their revenues in kind ? — Yes it is ; but it is not resorted to when a money engagement can be made upon fair terms, because the loss in the sale of the grain, and the uncertain period of realizing the revenue, make the operation very expensive and very troublesome to the Company's Government. The condition of the ryot is ameliorated by making a reasonable settlement at an earlier period of the year in money, except in very rare instances, when the uncertainty of the seasons, as in Ramnad, have made it necessary at times to receive the revenues in kind ; but it was a measure always of necessity, and not of choice. From your observation, while you were in India, are you of opinion that the market for European commodities was fully equal to the demand, ac- cording to the present system ? — Whilst I was at the presidency, I always saw the shops tull of articles, and native hawkers used to carry goods round about the country ; but this is a point 1 was not particularly ac- quainted with, during the last years of my residence in India. (Examined by the Committee) Would it not be a gross neglect, on the part of the Madras Govern- ment, to allow Europeans uniicenced, or if being licensed they miscon- ducted themselves, to remain in the Polygar countries ? — I think it would be a measure of greater wisdom and mercy to withdraw at once from the Polygar countries, because such an unrestrained intercourse could not but lead to the effusion of much blood and loss of life between the English EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. H5 English and the Polygars, and therefore it would be a most gross neglect S.R.Lushingtot), on the part of the government, to allow of any such unrestrained inter- Esq. M. P. course, and the government, of course, ought immediately to apply its power, by removing such individual. What reason have you to apprehend that a competition between the private traders and the Company v/ould have the effect of inducing the Company to abandon their trade r — My answer to a former question stated the supposition that such might be the effect; and I presume, that if private traders should be able to bring home the manufactures of that country and sell them upon much more reasonable terms than the Company, that the Company would not pursue that trade to an evident loss. If an unlimited intercourse should be allowed with three or four thousand miles in India, having innumerable ports and creeks where vessels might trade, would it be possible to restrain or check the disorders and irregu- larities likely to arise in such an unrestrained mode of trade ? — I think it would be hardly possible in that immense extent of coast ; and I would add, that the revenues of the country would be almost swallowed up to guard against the danger. Would it be possible for the natives to obtain redress against Europeans, in cases of injustice or oppression, but at one of the principal settlements, Calcutta, Madras, or Bombay ? — I am not aware of any mode by which they could otherwise obtain redress according to the present system of ju- dicature in India. Is not a great pari of the coast manybundred miles distant from either of those three places? — Undoubtedly; the place where I principally re- sided was four hundred miles. If an intercourse with licences should be allowed to the ports of India, would it be possible to prevent traders from evading all restrictions, and to trade and go where they pleased ? — I think the difficulty would be in pioportion to the number of ports so licensed. Is it your opinion, that many or most of the vessels going from the out- ports to India, would be disappointed in their expectations in respect to a sale of their cargoes? — Without knowing the number of vessels that are to go, and the nature of the cargoes, I cannot give a specific answer to that question ; but I know that the demand for European articles is ex- tremely limited, and I believe is at present abundantly supplied. U Is 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE S.B.Lushiii°Lon, Is it your opinion, that if they should be thus disappointed, and fall Esq.M.P. into a desperate state, they might not commit great depredations and i violences along the coast, and among the islands? — I should lear that such violences would happen. Have you not heard, that formerly when private traders were called interlopers, and navigated those seas, that they were disappointed, and became pirates ? — Yes, I have so heard. Would it be an easy matter for East-India ships of war, in that immense extent of Sea, to repress such depredations ■? — I think the number of ship* of war necessary to repress such depredations would be so expensive as not to make the country worth possessing. Was the East-India Company able to prevent the depredations of French privateers, from the Mauritius, the Isle of France, and other places ? — The maritime protection in India is under His Majesty's government, and is received from His Majesty's ships of war chiefly ; the Company have a» tew vessels, I believe, but lam not acquainted with it. Were the ships of war in those seas able to repress those privateers ? — The privateers at different periods committed very material depredations, at other times they were taken. Is it your opinion, that the East-India Company has usually sent to India as much of our woollen and other manufactures as there was a demand for ? — I have always heard so, and I believe so ; but never having been in the commercial department, I cannot speak specifi- cally to it. ! Does not the certainty and regularity of 'payment, and the confidence there is in the East-India Company, give that Company great advan- tages in their commercial transactions and in their investments ? — No doubt of it. Have srtizans from Europe established any manufactures in India ? — At the presidency of the establishment of Fort St. George, to which I be- longed, there were some artizans who made palanquins and carriages. Are the natives employed in those manufactures ?— -Yes, they are. Are not carriages, and all other articles of leather, down to women's leather gloves, now made in our settlements, particularly in Calcutta," which used to be sent thither from this country ? — As to carriages and palanquins-, V- u * EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAJEftS. 1 47 •palanquins, no doubt ; I have no personal knowledge of any other S.R.LushingtoKj articles. Esq.M.P. Are not the people of India more sober and diligent, and as much em- ployed and skilful in manufactures as the inhabitants of any country you are acquainted with? — There can be no human beings more patient, or -more industrious, or more sober, than the Hindoos ; and deriving their knowledge of the arts from their fathers, and concenhating their attention to the object immediately before them, they are eminently skilful in the manufacture of muslins, of chintzes, of shawls, and in some sorts of silver and gold work ; but I would add, the object of emulation with the Hindoos, is, to preserve the ancient fashions of the couutry, rather thaa 1o aim at any new object of improvement. Are any of our manufactures, except some trifling articles of glass in the principal towns, in demand among the Hindoos? — No. Can they not manufacture such woollen articles as they want, infinitely cheaper, and mote to their habits and tastes, than we can send them ?-— J can have no doubt of it, because their labour is so much cheaper, and their materials so much lower in price. Are not the warehouses in our principal establishments in India, fre- quently overloaded with British manufactures, and the markets so glutted as for the manufactures to be often sold below their prime cost ? — Not having been in the commercial department, I have no detailed knowledge on the subject. Is it your opinion that the East-India Company has better means of in- troducing our manufactures into India than private traders ? — This must depend very much upon the regulations under which the private trade is to be conducted. 'Is it your opinion that the admission of foreigners to trade with our Indian possessions is necessary, or will prove ultimately advantageous ?-— v If foreigners bring bullion and take away the surplus manufactures, it must ■be advantageous to India, in which it requires the prompt and despotic interference of the government to repress ? — -They do occasionally, but in no very great degree, under the present system of restriction. Supposing that a considerable number of Europeans were admitted into the interior of the country, but under bonds, passes, or other restrictions, do you conceive that abuses might take place from the misconduct of such Europeans with respect to the natives? — I think they would, and in a very considerable degree, if they went in great numbers ; under whatever restrictions, it would give rise to great abuses and great inconvenience. In what manner do you conceive, that, in spite of the restrictions alluded to, the abuses in question would take -place? — I think, in many instances, from ignorance of the manners and customs of the nati.es, and from the general contempt and contumely with which 'the lower order of Europeans are disposed to treat the natives, and particularly upon their first arrival. Do you conceive that the frequent exercise of a coercive power on the part of the government over Europeans admitted into the interior of the country would produce any bad effect? — I think it would have a great tendency to depreciate the European character in that country; and I think it essential, that it should be upheld by every possible means. Is it your opinion, that a frequent exercise of such coercive power, on the part of the government, would be invidious in the eyes of the popu- lation ? — Is it meant by the government recalling the persons to Calcutta. A coercive power over the Europeans admitted into the interior, whe- ther by recalling them from the interior, or any other method ? — Undoubt- edly it would be considered an invidious exercise of power; but .the -reasonable part of the community would of course acquiesce in -the exercise of such powers as were indispensably necessary. On the supposition that Europeans in great numbers were admitted to -Calcutta, but confined within certain limits of that port, would it, in your apprehension, be easy to restrain numbers of those persons from pene- trating into the interior of the country ? — I should think not, that in process of time great numbers would get into the interior of the country by EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 151 by various means, such as intercession with the government ; and that David it would be extremely difficult and invidious in various cases to prohibit Vanderheydcii^. the people from going up the country, as it would be frequently found Esq. essential for their commercial pursuits, if they went there for such objects, v^ — ^___j that they should go up the country. Have you had any opportunity of observing the commercial- habits or wants of the native population? — I have resided a great many years in the country, and certainly I must have general information on that subject. Are you able to state, whether the use of European commodities has been upon the whole increasing among the natives of India ? — I should think not. Supposing such increase to have in any degree taken place,- is it to be looked for at the presidencies or in the interior of the country ? — Almost exclusively at the presidencies, I should think, with some very few exceptions; such, for instance, as the Nabob of Oude, who is in the 1 habit of purchasing them to a very considerable extent ; and some, but very few, of the highest class of natives. Among the great mass of the population, is there any prospect of extending the consumption of European commodities? — I should think, not the least, speaking of the people of all the provinces. Will you state very concisely from what causes you. think that event so unlikely ? — I should think from their customs, manners, religion, and their very slender means of purchasing them, and their disinclination to purchase them, if they load the means. • Ave the Committee to understand from you, that the contractedness of the means of the natives for the purchase of European commodities isr likely to be lasting ? — With the great mass of the people and the state or society, I think there is no period that we can contemplate when it will be otherwise, or that there will be any material alteration. Can you state whether, at the presidency of Calcutta, any growing conformity was discoverable, on the part of the natives, to European fashions or habits ? — None to European habits ; in some degree it may be with respect to fashions amongst the highest class of the people, I mean in the use of carriages or articles of furniture, such as looking-glasses or glass ware in a very moderate degree. Do 352 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE David Do you ascribe this slight progress of European fashions among natives Vafiderheyden, f distinction to their intercourse with Europeans or to any other cause ? Esq.M J\ Of course it must have arisen from their intercourse with Europeans. Do you apprehend, that in the interior of the country, on the supposition that no great intercourse should be allowed to Europeans with natives, the consumption of European manufactures could be materially promoted ? — I do not think that under any circumstances the consumption of European commodities in the interior is likely to be increased, for the reasons I have before stated. Can you state whether the system at present established is sufficient to provide for any such increase of demand as may rationally be contem- plated ? — I should think entirely sufficient. Having been employed in the revenue department in the Bengal go- vernment, can you state, whether it be the practice of that government to receive any part of the territorial revenue in kind ? — Never. (Examined by the Committee.) Might not the taking away great commercial advantages from the East-India Company ultimately ruin the British interests in India? — Is it meant, taking away the commercial advantages they now enjoy. Yes ? — I should think it would materially affect them. And affect, the British interests in India ? — As affects the East-India Company. Might not the taking away great commercial advantages from the East India Company ultimately ruin the British interests in India ? — I should think it would materially affect their whole establishment; and in that way materially affect the British interests in India. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then WILLIAM FAIRLIE, Esq. is called in; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : WilliamFairlie, (By Counsel.)- — How long have you resided in India ?— About thirty Esq. years in Bengal. i , In what part of Bengal have you resided during those thirty years ? — In Calcutta during the whole of the time. What EAST -INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIUS, 153 What has been your occupation or profession during that time at Cal- WilliamVdi'lh-, cutta? — Merchant and agent. Y,^. Has your trading and agency been upon a large scale ? — It has been upon a very large scale. Do you still continue engaged in merchandize ? — I do. What are your present engagements in merchandize ? — As established English agent in London. Are you connected with any mercantile house at this time in the East- Indies ?— I am connected with a house at Calcutta at this time. From your long residence in India as a merchant and agent, arc you well acquainted with the mode of carrying on trade throughout India, and in the islands of the eastern Archipelago ? — I have had a great deal of experience in it, and am pretty well acquainted with it j both the inland trade of the Bengal provinces and the trade to the eastern islands. From your knowledge and experience in that trade, are you of opinion that, in the event of a free trade being opened between this country and India, there Would be any materially increased demand in that country for British manufactures ?— I do not think that any additional quantity could be forced into the country at present : very gradually, I think, there may be some increase ; I think it would be very gradual. Is it your opinion, that according to the present system, the present demand for European manufactures and commodities in India is fuily sup- plied ? — I think there is a full supply at present ; for some years before I left India, goods were generally selling at a loss ; and I understand, that they are still selling at a loss. By letters by the last Meet, I understand they are much under the cost, and likely to be much under it at the end of the season, when all the ships may arrive with their cargoes; that is the case in general ; some few articles may sell better than others j some may sell at a profit. Are you of opinion, that any increase of demand for European articles ca'i be reasonably expected in that country, that cannot be adequately supplied upon the present system ? — I certainly think they can supplv as many as are wafited, upon the present system ; they can carry it to any exten: ; the Company's ships can carry out any quantity they think proper, and that they rhink may be wanted. X Do 15-f. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE IfilliamFairlie, Qo your former answers apply to British India only, or to all the Esq. countries within the East-India Company's Charter ?— I speak principally v j of the Bengal provinces, and to the islands to the eastward, such as are frequented by the merchants from India. Will you state to the Committee, what are the European articles that are in demand among the natives of India ? — The chief articles are iren, lead, copper, woollens, and some other articles; spectacles, and hinges for doors, some small articles of that kind; but they can manufacture almost every thing they want themselves. Will you state to the Committee, what in your opinion is the great impediment to the increase ot a demand for European articles among the natives of India? — Their habits, customs, and having no use they can put them to, that I know of. In your opinion is the low price of labour and the poverty of the mass of the population an insuperable impediment ? — It is to a certain extent, no doubt ; while I was there, thirty years, I did not know a native that made any attempt to follow the customs of Europeans, neither by using the articles or following their dress ; they would use woollens in a great quantity if they could afford it, but none of the common people can^ their wages are so very low ; nor is there much used in Calcutta ; in the upper provinces, where the climate is colder, there is broad-cloth used by the natives. Do you know whether efforts have been made by the merchants of India, to extend the use of English broad-cloths up the country ? — There are both native and European merchants that trade freely from Calcutta over the country, as far even as Delhi and Hurdwar, and they carry whatever articles are in demand ; the natives are very keen merchants in their way. Can you state to the Committee what is the rate of labour among the cultivators at Bengal ? — I have good reason to know it, from connection with the indigo planters and others in that line ; the wages that the far- mers and the lower orders receive from the indigo planters and others is perhaps double what they get from their own labour, or what they get by being employed by the natives, which may be from 5s. to 7s. 6d. a month ; about three rupees, I think, is the amount ; in Calcutta the me- chanics get considerably higher wages j but the farmers and weavers do not get a sum exceeding that. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 155 Can you state what is the price of the manufactures of the country, WilliamFairlie, with which those cultivators usually clothe themselves ? — There is some of Esq. the cloth that they use, as low as I should think three-pence a yard, per- l -y ' haps some under: it is wide cotton cloth. Will you state to the Committee in what way the traders who import European articles into India, dispose of them when they arrive there ? — They wish to sell them, and generally do upon their invoice, with as much advance as they can get ; when they find they cannot sell them in that way, which is otten the case, they are sent to public auction, and sold for the best price they can get ; there are a number of European shopkeepers, and those persons are the general buyers. Do you mean that, at the presidencies, there are European shops at all times open at which any British commodities, in demand by the natives, can be purchased ? — There are, at all times, along with the Comp ; ny's warehouses ; in the shops sometimes, perhaps, the cloths cannot be had ; but in the Company's warehouses, there are always the different kinds of cloth. What is the course of providing for the demand for European commo- dities in the interior of the country? — At the principal stations of the army and civil stations, there are always European traders that have the goods there; and the natives carry up large quantities of goods from Calcutta, and carry them up as high even as to Hurdwar. In the event of a free trade being allowed with the interior of India do you, from your experience, imagine that that trade would be managed by native agents or dealers, or that the free traders would send their own agents up the country ? — I really cannot say what they would do ; they would prefer selling at Calcutta, I think, to sending up the country, at all, European goods. Are you of opinion that the habits of India would admit European goods being carried up the country as they are here, by riders or travellers ? — They cannot be carried up by riders, I think ; they can be carried up in boats upon the Ganges ; there is a communication for fifteen hundred miles, I should suppose. Has it been your interest, while you were a merchant in India, to push the sale and consumption of European articles in India, as far as you possibly could ? — I never carried it on to any great extents I never found X 2 a profit 1 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JFill/amFairlie, a profit upon them ; we only imported European goods for returns upots Esq. the goods sent ; there was very seldom gain on the returned cargoes. Are you of opinion that attempts have been made by the British mer- chants now in India, to push the use of European articles into every part of the Indian seas, from whence there was a probability of profit ? — I really cannot say how far the attempts have been ; but I know that European goods have been sent to the eastern islands, and the sale was very small indeed ; European goods have never been an object of that eastern trade. When you traded from Calcutta to the eastern islands, what sort of cargoes did you send to them ? — The chief article was opium, indeed the principal article; some few of the India piece-goods sell ; coarse clo'hs, a few silk goods, a little iron and chintz, those are the principal articles that are disposed of to the eastward. If a cargo of European articles were sent to the eastern islands, in your opinion would there be any probability of their selling to advantage ? — I do not think they could put up a cargo of European articles but to a lo,s ; I do not think they could sell them at all, from my knowledge of the eastern trade; the Malays make many articles themselves, particularly their pieces, which is a favourite article j and European articles of the same kind they will not purchase. Do you know whether there is any difficulty in trading with the natives of those islands on account of the ferocity of their temper ? — It requires the greatest caution to be constantly on the guard : I have known many vessels whose crews have been cut off and the vessels captured ; they are deceitful and ferocious, Malays in general. Do you know whether from the same causes it is not impossible to penetrate into the' interior of those islands ? — It never was customary, so. far as I have known, that they went further than the ports ; they never attempted, as I understood, to go into the country, only to the port where the .vessels go to, or near it. Dp you know whether, during the last twenty years, there has not beea an increased export of European articles and manufactures to India ?— A. very great one, I think ; but chiefly, I should think, owing to the increased number of Europeans now. in the service of the Company ; the Company's military and civil service have greatly increased, the King's regiments are greatiy increased, and the number of Europeans is twenty or thirty to one, as compared to the time I went, thirty years ago. Has EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 157 Has not also, within that time, the prime cost of all European articles William Fairlic, -and manufactures in this country increased to a very considerable degree ? Esq. , — I cannot speak particularly to that ; some of them have increased, some — — v— of them have not. (Examined by the Committee.) Is not the fair at Hurdwar a place to which there is a great resort of natives of India ? — I understand so, from the Indies and countries round to a great extent. Is it within your knowledge whether any quantity of woollens have been sent to that fair from Calcutta ? — There have been woollens sent there The natives purchase them at the Company's sales and carry them up ; how far they may satisfy the demand* I cannot say. "Will you be so good as to state to the Committee in what manner the Americans carried on their trade in Bengal ? — The American trade commenced since I went to India : when they came first out, they con- sidered that a great gain was to be got from English goods ; they thought the captains of the Indian ships had made considerable gain, and for several years they brought great numbers ; but they found they could not make any profit,' and they have not brought any ; the whole of that trade since principally consisted of treasures of different kinds ; Madeira and Teneriffe wines, French and Spanish brandies, mahogany, and bills of credit upon London, those are the principal articles that have been brought out for some years past ; a few of their own articles, salt fish, and so on, which they cannot get a sale for. How do they procure their investments ? — By purchase of goods chiefly at the presidencies at market ; some of them, after being better acquainted, have given orders for their goods to be procured from the Aurungs, to be sent by another ship. Were they able to procure their investments, in some way or other, at Calcutta ? — Yes, certainly. Did they procure any large proportion of their investments from the native merchants at Calcutta ? — A very large proportion. If the merchants of this country, desirous of providing an investment in India for an European market, could obtain funds from the govern- ment of Bengal, would they consider it lor then - advantage to grant bills 158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Fairlic, bills upon England, for the purpose of obtaining those funds? — They Esq. might to a certain extent; it would depend much upon their want of »■ > money : a great part of their trade is carried on by money taken upon India ; if the Company gave it on better terms than others, they would take it from the Company, no doubt; it is carried on by the merchants granting their bills upon England, which they get from the Company's servants, and others, who have money to remit. You observed that in the colder climates, a considerable quantity of our woollen manufactures was in use ? — There is a considerable quantity, I believe, used in the upper parts of the country. Is there not a manufacture of a kind of woollen cloth, well calculated to keep out rain, which the Indians use over their shoulders in cold weather: — I seldom saw cloth of their own manufacture used in Calcutta. In the distant provinces? — I cannot speak to that; almost all the woollen cloths sold by the Company is carried up the country ; but I know of no woollen cloth made in Calcutta except coarse cloth. Is it your opinion, that if the out-ports of the United Kingdom were permitted to send ships to the ports of India, they would be able to dispose of more of our manufactures than are usually sent there ? — I should think very few more at present; the markets being so completely- overstocked, I do not know how they could ; in time, it is to be sup- posed, that there will be an increased demand, for they are not averse to them from prejudice, to many of them. Is it your opinion, that there is an opening for the employing of a larger capital in the Indian trade, than is at present employed in it ? — I do not think there is any want of capital at present, at least for the export trade from India, except what may be supplied by the surplus money to be remitted, beyond the funds which the merchants have of their own ;■ they will prefer to sell goods, to shipping them ; if the merchants from this country will buy their goods, thev will be very, glad to sell them. If an intercourse with licences should be allowed to the ports of India, would it not be difficult to prevent the traders from eluding restrictions and limitations, and to trade and go where it might best suit their pur- pose ? — I do not know any where they could go without the Company's provinces to trade, or where thev could desire to go ; and within the Company's provinces, I do not know that they would desire to go beyond that; EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. Ia9 that; and if it was desired to prevent that, there would be much diffi- William Fairlut, culty to the police of the country. Esq. Is it your opinion, that many, or most of the vessels going from the out-ports to India, would be disappointed with respect to their expecta- tions of the sale of a cargo ? — I should think so, from the state of the markets. Does not the certainty and regularity of payment, and the confidence there is in the East-India Company, give that Company great advantages in all commercial transactions, and in their investments? — I have found no impediments to the procuring of investments for many years past: they certainly have advantages by established factories, and a certain set of manufacturers of different kinds, weavers and others, that they con- stantly employ, perhaps abler mechanics than individuals could get. Does not the certainty and regularity of payment, and the confidence there is in the East-India Company, give that Company great advantages in all commercial transactions and in their investments? — They have only those advantages, for, having established factories, an individual can go there and make advances and get his goods. Have they not advantages over the private trader? — I do not know that they have any, where there is any proper capital in the hands of the merchants, and the Company do not take unfair advantages : a man with a great capital has an advantage over a man with a small one. Have artizans from Europe established any manufactures in India ? — They have. Are the natives employed in those manufactories ? — They are almost wholly; there are few Europeans; the Europeans have the head ma- nagement, but they are natives who are employed under them. Are not carriages, and all articles of leather, down to women's gloves, and many other manufactures, now made at other establishments in India, which used to be sent thither from this country ? — There are a great many articles; plate, carriages, leather of every description almost ; harness for the army, shoes, boots, furniture of the very best kind, and a variety of others, copper and brass; indeed there is almost every article manufactured now in Calcutta, and very well. Glass ware is the jrmcipal article wanted ; they get the bark for tanning the leaiher, and silver for the plate, in that country ; some copper and lead is got from this country. Are -y- 160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE WilliamFahiie, Are not the people of India more sober and diligent, and as much em- Esq. ployed, and skilful in manufactures, as the inhabitants of any country you are acquainted with ? — They are certainly more sober than any other country that I know ; and they are pretty diligent, but not remarkable for their industry, but ingenious good workmen. Are the people of India, considering their few wants, their manner of living, and habits, likely to consume more of our manufactures than they have hitherto done? — The greater intercourse they have whh Europeans, I should think they would; but it must be Vefy gradual, I think. Can the mass of Hindoos afford to purchase them ? — No, the lower classes, from the rate of wages I have stated, cannot afford it; but there are a great many others, who are making money and are verv rich, in Calcutta : the lower classes of people are not at present in a condition to buy any European articles, that I know of; their wages are so very low, and they seem to prefer very much their own manufactures. Are the people of India : iable to change their customs and habits ? — I should think not ; I have observed no change in thirty years, and I believe there has been very little in two thousand, perhaps. Can they not manufacture such woollen and cotton articles as they want infinitely cheaper and more to their tastes and habits than we can send them? — Woollens I do not know that they manufacture, but of very coarse kind, which is used only to cover horses ; and their cotton cloth, which I have stated, is from three-pence a yard to two shillings, which are quilted sometimes in the cold weather. Is not the condition of the general mass of the inhabitants of Bengal generally improving ?— I really cannot speak to the general mass of the people. Having resided there thirty years, is not the condition of the inhabitants of Calcutta generally improving? — I think it is so tar improved that they now get better wages, and particularly where they are employed by Europeans, and there are great numbers employed by the indigo planters. Has not the number of Europeans half-cast considerably increased in Calcutta lor the last few years ?— They have increased, but I do not know that they have been added to by any importation of others of that kind. By the gradual increase of Europeans ?— I do not observe many of them grow EAST-INDIA COMPANVS AFFAIRS? 161 grow' up; there were very * Europeans when I went to India, but JVilUamFairlie, there are of Portuguese ; there are a great number of young people, but Esq. not many grown up, and they are increasing. *■ < * Sic Orig. Have they not in a great measure adopted European habits ? — They have wholly European habits ; they take the habits of the father. Are they more at their ease than the Hindoos ? — They certainly ex- pend more than the Hindoos, but it must depend sicOrig. Are they more at their ease than the Hindoos ? — None, or very few of them, were grown up ; a few of them are grown up to be set out for themselves. You do not mean to convey that they die off, all of them ?— No, but there were few of them that had grown up ; there were but few Euro- peans when I went there ; but they will be more expensive than the natives, and they live in the European manner, and there are many of them growing up. Are those observations of yours confined to Calcutta ? — They are con- fined to Calcutta, with respect to those half-cast people. Has the Indian market been always sufficiently supplied with woollens under the present system ?— I really cannot answer particularly to that; the Company are the chief importers, and I do not know whether there might have been a want of them up the country ; 1 have stated they are not much consumed in Calcutta, except for European wear. Is the capital of the Company employed in the Indian trade sufficient to occupy the whole of the country between India and Europe ? — I do not think the capital employed by the Company has been sufficient. Are not the warehouses in our principal establishments in India fre- quently full of British manufactures, and the markets so glutted as to be often sold greatly below their value ? — Frequently. Has the East India Company better means of introducing our manu- factures in India than private traders? — At present there is every facility given to the private traders in distributing the goods in India, if they are allowed to be exported by the individuals from this country. Is the capital of the East India Company and the private traders now Y employed 1(32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Fair lie, employed sufficient fully and for all purposes? — Whether it would be Esq. advantageous to increase it I cannot say, but much more could be em- 1 w ' ployed ; the manufactures of India may be increased to almost any amount ; the exports from India may be increased. How happens it that that capital is not employed ? — There has been very heavy loss on many of the articles, and others leave no profit ; but as to the quantity of articles they can be increased, if it were for their interest to do it, they certainly could purchase goods. How can you suppose that a larger capital can be employed if there should be a great loss in the use of that capital ? — The quantity of goods and manufactures of India certainly can be greatly increased ; whether it will be for the interest of the Company to purchase those I cannot say ; losses have arisen, and they do not increase the trade. But you seem to be of opinion it would not answer ? — I think it would not, or it might have been increased. Are you of opinion it would be advantageous to persons to employ a larger capital ? — I do not think it would, from the prices India goods have been selling at. Do you happen to know whether the price of India goods of late has not much increased at the sales here at home ? — I understand that piece- goods have rather increased in price : indigo is increased in the sale that is just finished, and other articles again are falling ; raw silk and cotton are low ; the present sale of indigo has been pretty favourable, not very great. Is the capital of the Company, and the capital employed by private persons, sufficient to supply the Indian market with European and British commodities, particularly woollen cloth ?— Perfectly sufficient, I should think. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then LESTOCK WILSON, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : Lestock Wilson, {By Counsel).— W ere not you for some years captain of an East-India- Esq. man in the Company's service ? — I was. ■v ' For how many years?— -From 1786 to 1799, thirteen or fourteen years. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 163 Are you now in the marine service of the Company ? — I have left the Lestock Wilscn, service. Esq. Since your retiring from that service have you been engaged in any com- mercial concern with India ? — I am now in a house of business under the firm of Palmer, Wilson, and Company. While you were in the service of the Company, had you an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the navigation about the coasts of the penin- sula ? — Of course I was at Bombay, and from thence to China three voy- ages ; several times I have been at China. Had you any opportunity of becoming acquainted with the navigation in the Malay Archipelago ? — As far as the track, to China went ; I can- not say I was all over it, but in the Eastern passage to China I had a pretty extensive range. Had you the means of informing yourself with respect to the charac- ters, manners, and habits of the natives of the islands in that Archipelago ? — In a degree, in a very small degree, I never traded amongst them. I was picked up by a Malay trader, after I was cast away in the Vansit- tart, and there 1 saw a little of them. Are you able to say, whether they are a civilized or a barbarous people, or in what stage between those points ? — It is certainly necessary to be very cautious in your dealings with them, and to take care, if you land, to have nothing about you that shall make it an object to them to rob you ; the Europeans who traded with the Malays always go aimed, and it was their rule to keep their Sepoys under arms, whenever a Malay boat was near. Are the Malays in any degree a people of commercial habits ? — They certainly will bring you the commodities of the country ; they will bring it you, and take opium from you. In what degree do those islands furnish a demand for European com- modities ? — I should think in a very slender degree ; the articles that are generally obtained from them, are beetle-nut, some other articles, parti- cularly tin ; the island of Banca is almost a bed of tin, it is easily smelt- ed, lying near the surface, and is obtained without any difficulty; tin is procured from all those islands, from Sumatra and others. To what circumstances do you ascribe the scantiness of the demands Y 2 furnished V" 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lestock Wilson, furnished by those islands for European manufactures ? — Their servants Esq. are very few, they do not want them, added to which they are in some » v ' degree manufacturers themselves ; they can make all their culinary uten- sils, and they obtain others in a considerable degree from China. "Were an open trade established between the ports of the United King- dom and the Kastern seas, do you apprehend that the commerce between this country aid the Malay Archipelago would, in any considerable degree, be increased ? — I should apprehend, that a direct intercourse between this country and that, would never be worth any body's pursuing at all. I know nothing to be brought from the Malay islands, that would be useful; they might obtain tortoise-shell, perhaps, and a few other trifling articles. You have stated, you are acquainted with the coasts of the peninsula ; can you state whether there are not many ports of the Malabar coast where a landing might be easiiy effected ? — Yes, certainly, at all of them ; there is a surf, but no formidable difficulty presented by that. I believe the officers and captains of the East-India service are allowed to trade on their own account ? — They are, they are paid in that way. Were you in the habit of availing yourself of that privilege ? — Unques- tionably. In making up your investment for the Indian market, did you chiefly use such articles as were intended tor the native consumption of India, or for the consumption of European residents in that country F — A great part of a captain's investment consists of dead weight, consisting of lead, copper, and iron ; copper is carried in a very limited degree ; the East- India Company seldom aliow you to deal in it ; the rest is for the Euro- peans, I hardly know of any thing exclusively for the natives, unless it might be some articles that were intended to be manufactured in that country, either by natives or by Europeans. Did you find it profitable to make up a great portion of your invest- ments of articles intended for the consumption of the natives ? — My three last voyages were to Bombay and China, and 1 think two out of the three were unproductive, as far as the trade from Europe went, or nearly so ; the profit in the other was slight. Upon the whole, do you conceive that the private export of commodi- ties, in the manner you have described, is likely to be increased under any circumstances? — I should think not, or in a very limited degree; I must obseive EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 165 observe that with respect to Bombay and China, the voyages are peculiar, Lestock JJ'il ok, in that it was not possible for a commander to carry out the fund*, which he rl^c would require at Bombay, for the purchase of cotton in commodity, it *■ v ' was generally three-fourths of it carried in silver. Was it from a want of demand for European articles in Bombav, that a great part of what commanders carried out was in silver r — Certainly, because we could not dispose of it to a profitable account, but silver was more profitable. From your experience as a partner in a mercantile house trading with India, are you able to say, whether there be now any great demand in India for European manufactures from this country ? — As a trader in a mercantile house, I am particularly situated, having a ship at this moment going out, that came home in 1 8 10, which has since made a voyage in the Company's service, and now has a right to return there ; it is a teak-built ship, and probably may be sold there ; there is a necessity for her returning to India, and she must return dead freighted, or in ballast, if the Company had not relaxed in the conditions of her going out with the produce and manufactures of this country ; and I know, in consequence, her lading con- sists of a very few articles indeed that are strictly the produce of these kingdoms ; I recollect but four she has, namely, empty bottles, a little ale, which is carried more to oblige a brewer, than any hope Jo get any thing out of it ; she has a little English iron, twenty or thirty tons, and twenty or thirty tons of chalk, which they use in a very small degree ; she has been offered for freight at a very low rate, of which a very little indeed is ob- tained. Do you apprehend that any much greater quantity of capital could be profitably invested in the export trade of manufactures from this country to India, than is now employed ? — I should apprehend not, we would gradually increase our exports if we could. (Examined by the Committee. ) This ship you have been speaking of is not to return to this country with any cargo ? — That will depend upon circumstances entirely, she is at present not, and she cannot, unless she obtains permission from the East- India Company to do so, as the law now stands, unless she returns with rice. If an unlimited intercourse should be allowed with three or four thou- sand miles of coast in India having innumerable ports and creeks, where vessels 166 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lestock Wilson, vessels might trade, will it be possible to restrain or check the disorders Esq. and irregularities likely to arise in such an unrestricted trade ? — I should v v- ' suppose, as far as the coast of India is concerned, that the Company's power and authority would be able to keep every body in order ; but with respect to the Malay islands and the Coast of Sumatra, that I can- not speak to, they are out of any civilized authority there. , — — _._ been up the country at all Is it your opinion that many or most of the vessels going from the out-ports to India would be disappointed in their expectations in respect to a sale of their cargo ? — I am confident of it ; at least I cannot divine any articles that they can possibly put into their ships that they will succeed in selling ; I take it for granted that upon an unlimited intercourse being allowed, there would immediately go a vast number of ships and people. But they would be disappointed ? — They certainly would be disap- pointed, and nine-tenths of them would be ruined. Would you take upon yourself to say so, as confidently, if they took that cargo of the manufactures of this country to South America, and procured specie to take to the East- Indies ? — I knew nothing of South America. Is it your opinion, that if ships were allowed to trade in the Indian seas, it would be possible to confine them to particular ports ?■ — In my opinion it would be impossible to confine them to particular ports, the Malay Archipelago consists of innumerable ports. If private traders are permitted to trade to Malacca, Manilla, and the other Indian islands, do you think the smuggling of teas can possibly be prevented ? — There is no doubt at all they would obtain the teas from China, especially at Manilla, because it is upon the coast of Luconia, and they can pass from one to the other in Junks, in both monsoons. Is it your opinion, that the admission of an indiscriminate host of traders to the Indian seas is likely to debase the character of Englishmen in EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. lG7 in the eyes of the native powers? — I really cannot answer that ; I should Lestock Wilson, think that an indiscriminate host of Europeans landed on the coast of Esq. India would have very much that tendency, unless they were strictly *■ v * confined to the sea ports, and not permitted to rove. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then WILLIAM DAVIES, Esquire, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel) Will you state to the Committee how many voyages you Win. Davies have been to India, and in what capacity ? — I have made four voyages to Esq. China and India, as an officer in the Company's service, having in the * v » course of those voyages touched at South America, the Cape of Good Hope, and Batavia. Are you, in consequence of having made those voyages, well acquainted with those seas, and with the trade in them ? — I have a general knowledge of the trade. Since you have left the sea-service of the Company, what has been your employment or profession ? — A part of my time has been occupied as an East-India merchant, nearly ten years ; for the last three years I have de- clined acting as an East-India merchant, because the trade has not been sufficiently profitable to induce me to employ my capital in that way. The capital which I have employed as an East-India merchant in trading to India, generally, I have since employed as a ship owner. As an East-India merchant, have you been connected with any house or partner in the East Indies ? — I have generally made my consignments to houses of agency there ; I hare a partner in London who was a resident at Madras for several years, sixteen or seventeen years, a man well acquainted with the detail of the trade at Madras, a Mr. Card. Do you think from your own knowledge, and the knowledge of Mr, Card on mercantile subjects connected with India, that you would carry on that trade with as much advantage as any other persons in this country ? — I have reason to believe that we did carry it on with equal advantage to what any other house in London could have done, because we neither wanted a command of capital, nor did we extend our credit to its full extent. 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE IVm. Dtn-ics, extent, and generally speaking, I think we had equal knowledge, and Esq. equally good information, with any other house in the city of London. ! v ' Can vou state from your knowledge of the Indian commerce, whether the market for European goods in that country is generally over or under stocked ? — My opinion is, that of late it has had an ample supply ; sup- posing the question to be whether under or overstccked, I should say, that in my opinion it has been overstocked. Have you during the last ten years exported to India to a large amount ? — The house, I am at the head of, has to, what I consider, a large amount. During that time have you at any time attempted to rival the East India Company in the exporting of the woollens of this country ? — I did consign woollens to India, but I discovered that the rate the Company sold their cloths at, was such as to prevent me as a merchant obtaining such a profit as could induce me to pursue that branch of the trade. Do you mean the Committee to understand that, from finding the profit not sufficient, you have in a great measure withdrawn your capital from this trade ? — Yes, because I did not find the trade productive. Are you of opinion that, upon the present system, the export trade to India from this country may be extended to meet any probable demand ? — I think it may ; and my reasons for thinking so are, because the Com- pany have given to the public more than ample accommodation for the purposes under the act of 1793. There is a certain tonnage granted from the East India Company to the public since then. In the year 1806 they granted further privileges to the public, though that grant of 1793 has not been fully occupied ; the grant was about 3,000 tons per annum, the occupation 1 think was under 1,200. Do you know from your experience, as a private trader, whether the Company are liberal or not in granting licences to such traders as apply to them ? — I think they have acted a liberal part : they have within the last two years granted many licences, I believe to the amount of twenty-two or twenty-three to private traders, to trade to the Eastward of the Cape of Good Hope. Are you of opinion that the capital of the East India Company, toge- ther with the capital of the private traders employed in the trade of the Indian \ ; I EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. IG9 Indian seas, is sufficient for carrying on the trade with India? — I am of IVm. Davles, opinion that it is, in the prebent state of the trade. F. Is in your opinion the capital of the East-India Company, together with the capital of the private traders employed in the trade of the indiau ;>ea, fully sufficient to carry on the trade, export and import, between this country and India ? — I cannot possibly know the capital that other houses possess, but if you ask. me as matter of opinion, I am of opinion that it is. Is it your opinion that if there were an increased demand, that capital could be easily increased upon the present system to meet it ? — I cannot positively answer that ; when an East India merchant I could not employ the whole of my own capital in the trade, and I believe others were in a similar state ; but that again must be matter of opinion. Are you of opinion that if a considerably increased capital were applied to the encouragement of the manufactures of India, and they were brought to Europe, they would not probably materially injure the manufactures of this country? — I think, that if the exports from India of coarse cloths were greatly increased, that they might interfere with the manufactures of this country. A proof, I had cloths consigned to me from Madras, which did pay the duty in England, and were sold in England, a part of which I have now in use in my own house after having been bought from a trader in London ; I am speaking of coarse cotton cloths. {Examined by the Committee.) Have you carried on your trade entirely with the settlement at Madras, or have you had any commerce at Bengal ? — Some of my goods have gone to Bengal, and I have made consignments to Bombay. You never were a merchant resident in Firdta ? —No. Is it your opinion that, if ships were allowed to trade in the Indian seas, it would be possible to confine them to particular ports ? — I presume that the government of India is sufiicien'ly stiong to say where a ship shall go to, and where she shall not go to. Do you suppose that if ships were allowed to go from the out-ports of the United Kingdom, that it will be possible to restrict them when they Cnce get into the Indian seas from going where it suits their purpose best ? Z --That 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE U'm. Davies, — That must be matter of opinion ; I have always found the least educated Esq, part of mankind the least manageable; and upon that ground, I should » -y ' presume, that they would not be under the same controul as the captains and officers of the Indian ships, who, generally speaking, are gentlemen and men of education. If an unlimited intercourse should be allowed with three or four thou- sand miles of coast in India, having innumerable ports and creeks where vessels might trade, will it be possible to restrain or check the disorders and irregularities likely to arise in such a mode of trade ? — I am of opinion it would be expensive to do, and that great difficulties would a.ise in so doing. Do you describe a person entrusted with the command of a vessel of not less than 350 registered tons, and of that measurement, a man of that description, uneducated ? — I think, generally speaking, they are unedu- cated men. What description of persons are in the command usually of India built ships that are sent to this country ? — They are not men of equal intel- ligence to the captains of the regular East-India ships, I think. Is it your opinion that many or most of the vessels going from the out- ports to India would be disappointed in their expectations, in respect to a sale of their cargoes ? — I am of opinion that they would ; I am of opinion that the exports from this country to India have more than equalled the demand. The Witness is directed to withdraw.. Then JOHN WOOLMORE, Esquire, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : John H oolmore, (By Counsel.) I believe you spent the earlier part of your life in the Esq. maritime service in India ? — From Europe to India, and a variety 01 ' parts. "V- Did you at any time navigate the Indian seas in the coasting trade, or in the country trade ? — Yes. At EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. J J- 1 At what period ?— From i;S'2 to 1788. John Woohnorc, Esq. About that time I believeyou afterwards commanded an Indiaman f — \ ^ > Yes, I did ; I commanded an Indiaman two voyages to China. Since which I believe you have been very largely concerned in East- ' India ship; ? — Yes, till within the last two or three years, and then I gave it up nearly. From that time till within the last two or three years you were largely concerned in it ? — Till within the last four or five years. During your carrying on your trade in India, had you an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the nature of the ports and markets in that part of the world ? — I was in a variety of services during the time I was in India, navigating a country ship. I navigated from Bengal to Madras in the rice trade ; fro n Bengal to the coast of Malabar, to Bombay, and from thence again to China, from China back again to Bengal, which I called my home, and from Bengal again down the coast to Pegu on the Malay coast, and to China ; other voyages again, from Bengal along the west coast of Sumatra, Batavia, from Batavta along the west coast of Borneo, then across again to the Peninsula, and Malay and China, and from China to Bengal. Had you an opportunity in that way of exploring the different ports and learning what opportunities there were for the consumption cf European articles ? — The ports ( was pretty well acquainted with, from information as well as from having been at them; but the only new ports I explored, were merely on the w.st coast of Borneo, which was not generally known to country captains; that was between Banjar Masseen and Borneo Proper. Did you find any opening there for the sale of European commodities ? —Very little indeed ; the only European commodities my cargoes con- sisted of, were a small'quantity of cutlery, some fire arms, a small quan- tity of iton and some steel, of which by the bye they told me they had better steel at Banjar Masseen than I could possibly bring to them. Did you find a ready sale for those articles? — -No, very small in pro- portion ; the chief articles were 800 chests of opium, about £ 50,000 worth ; about X^OOO of piece goods ; and from 5 to <£600, not exceeding ^6l,OuO worth of a variety of trifling articles. This amount included Z 2 iron, 172 MINUTES FO E1VDENCE ON THE John Woolmore, iron, steel, and all other things, except piece-goods and opium ; they are Esq- mostly supplied with their coarse from China. Can you state the probability of a market in any of the other ports in India to which you have been ? — I do not know, except now we have got Batavia we shall have the market the Dutch had, consisting of iron and coarse cutlery ; that is much interfered with by the trade of the Chinese junks from China, they bring the cutlery there, manufactured at China. Do you consider that the Chinese would in those articles be a formi- dable rival to the European traders ? — The Chinese junks are constant traders during the season to Batavia, and all the Malay ports on that coast ; they bring a variety of articles, it is impossible to enumerate them ; they •bear roost resemblance to a general chandler's or a country shop, where they sell articles of all descriptions ; they sell articles of all descriptions, from a parasol to a Lascar's knife. I believe there are five or six hundred petty merchants that go regularly down in those junks. Have you any opportunity of knowing the sale for woollen cloths irt Batavia ? — No ; 1 had some few pieces of woollen cloths there, they were ■chiefly fancy articles, but there was no sale ; I gave ihem as presents to the superior Malay people in the island of Borneo, the rajah to whom I sold my cargo, and the superior people; they were chiefly coloured, blue and white, 1 believe, and red and blue, and a small piece or two of ker- seymere ; but there was no general sale of woollens, that I could find, nor did I see them made use of.; .this applies to the whole coast, in- cluding Batavia. Have you had an opportunity, since you returned to England, to know any thing particular respecting the dealings of the commanders of the ships of which you are a proprietor ?— All those commanders were young -friends that I brought forward, and the management of their business went through my hands, not as a paid agent but as a private friend. Can you state from that duty which you discharged to them, the na- ture of 'the encouragement there was for the expoit of British commodi- •ties ?— I did not find, in looking over their invoices, that there was any thing new.; the trade has been on the decline within the last three or four years ; the only agency business I have left, is of one commander, •of whose ship my brother has the management, and he went out in the \!ast April fleet ; he carried out only «£2,000, and he used to carry out & and XGjOOO, not exceeding ,£10,000 worth. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 173 Of British articles? — They were articles shipped from London ; there John Woohnore, was iron, lead, and things of all kinds, millinery and haberdashery, and Esq. thousands of articles, b ots, shoes, leather breeches. There was every * — — v ' thing an European wears, either necessarily or fur fancy ; but the stapk articles are generally iron, steel, lead, and some copper. Have you any opportunity of knowing the profit that was made on those privileged goods ? — Since 1801-2, and more particularly since tire Court of Directors have given facility to the extra ships, it has appeared to me from conversation and from t-he transactions that have gone through my hand-, generally to have declined in profit. I know this young man, of whom I have spoken, on his last voyage was extremely angry at not getting the prime cost and expences from his goods; and though I have not had a letter from him, I understand from my brother who has, that he h s not come to a good market ; but he had only j[ 2,000 worth of property with him as gojds, Have you sufficient general knowledge to say, whether the present mode of supply of European and British goods for the Indian market is adequate to the wants there ? — It has appeared to me, I am not engaged in it, that since the East- India Company have given facility for the last five or six years to their extra shipping, it has appeared to me overstock- ed, if I may, draw my information from the sources I have mentioned, namely, from those whose business I have had the management of, as weh as from general information, living constantly in the habits of East- Indian society. Are you acquainted with the nature of the regulations and restrictions that exist by law now to prevent interlopers, or to send interlopers from India? — I have undersiood that the East India Company have always had the power of sending any individual home, indeed, when I staid there. I, had been an officer of an European ship, arid I staid in India, strictly speaking, without the Company's permission, 1 was left on shore sick at the time, and I certainly paid particular attention to my de- meanour, and was particularly careful of.my conduct while I was in India, because I was under their directions, and subject to be sent home when- ever the government ordered me to be so. Do you conceive that such a power would be an impediment to an -open and free trade with that part of the world r — I should think it ■would; as an individual very well known to some men of high respeeta- .bi.ity 1T4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Waolmurc, bility in India, if I were to set up at Liverpool, Bristol, or London, as a Esq. merchant, I should not individually want any connection to reside there, <• v / having such friends there ; bnt otherwise, setting up here to establish a trade to India, I should ; I could not do it satisfactorily to myself without I had somebody resident there on my part. Should you think it necessary that your supercargoes and officers, and even your sailors, should have the piower of remaining there, without being subject to such an authority as you have described ? — As far as I can judge from the exterior cf India, I should think it necessary, from the general disposition of Europeans, that the governor should have the power of sending any body home he plea^ed. It has always been a principle of mine, that they should have that power, and if I was a merchant here, I certainly should wish to have somebody to reside there to conduct my business. I know some of the resident agents to whom I might send my cargo; but as an individual here without that connexion, I certainly should expect it. I have left cargoes of country ships at China, when it has suited my purpose, with individuals ; I thiftk it possible I might have a cargo in India that I cannot sell, and therefore should have an agent to stay there, who is under my controul and manage- ment. Should you apprehend, that in carrying on a free and open trade to India, such as you have described, from the port of Liverpool or London, that it might be necessary to have your cargo disbursed in different set- tlements, or in different ports on the coast ? — I should certainly consider it for my general convenience, to have the power of going from one port of India to the other ; that is, to the ports of Bombay, and Madras, and Bengal. Would you confine it to the principal settlements ? — I should, certain- ly, as a merchant, wish to have it to every kind of port that I could, I have no doubt. Wherever your goods were left, should you require a superintendent at the place ? — If I entered into the trade really as a merchant of emi- nence, I should consider it necessary to have agents both at Bombay, Madras, and Bengal. Have you had any oppo;tunity of knowing the manner in which the Americans carry on their trade ?— To India I have not an opportunity of knowing ; EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 175 knowing ; I was at China when the first American ships arrived there ; I John Woolmorc, was then in a country ship. Esq. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then WILLIAM BRUCE SMITH, Esq. is called in; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows: (By Counsel. J Have you not resided as a licensed free merchant in W. B. Smith, India for forty years ? — I have. Esq. In what part of the country did you principally reside ? — In the north- ern part of the Bengal province, on the northern boundary. Had you opportunities of seeing Calcutta ? — Frequently. Did you visit Calcutta from the interior ? — I frequently visited Calcutta. Was your intercourse, during your residence near the northern boun- dary of Bengal, principally confined to natives? — Both natives and Eu- ropeans. Had you an opportunity of extensive experience, with respect to the character, habits, and manners of the natives ? — Constant intercourse with the natives, and of course great experience. How long have you been returned from India? — A year and a half; about eighteen months. In what branch of commerce did you principally employ yourself during your residence at Nautpour? — At first in the timber trade. Was it in purchasing timber from natives ? — In purchasing and sending saul wood to Calcutta for sale. Had you an opportunity of observing what degree of taste the natives evinced for the use of European manufactures in that part of the country? — But very few of them used the manufactures of Europe, they had no taste for them, they did not suit them. Did. 176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE IV. B. Smith, Did you ever engage in any speculation, which enables you to speak E,q. particularly to this point?— I did; an investment of European arm !es *—- v ' were sent to me from Calcutta, I think it was in the year 1793, to dispo-e of, and none of the natives would take them, and they were returned oack again ; there was a boat load. What were the articles? — Wedgewood's wares, glass ware, lanthorn shades, and articles of that description. Were they exposed to the view of the natives, and recommended to them? — They were given in charge of the native shopkeepers, desiring them to be sold, if possible, or to be returned; and they were all re- turned, or the greatest part of them were returned. Do you conceive that that experiment failed from a want of demand among the natives for European manufactures ? — Entirely so ; native demand for. Is the scantiness of European manufacture permanent in its nature ?— I think it is k Do s the use of European hardware prevail among the natives in that part of India where you have resided ? — I have scarcely seen any articles there of that description, even in the markets or shops, for sale. Do you apprehend that the consumption of European hardware could be particularly promoted in that part of the country ? — 'i hey make articles for their own use so much cheaper, that I think there would be little demand for European articles. During the course of your residence in India, did you perceive any particular change in the general manners, habits, and customs of the people ? — Very little indeed. Is it the custom of British gentlemen, whether public functionaries or not, residing in the interior of the country, to employ Europeans of a lower description ? — It sometimes happens with gentlemen leaving Euro- pean servants, but manufacturers of Indigo particularly employ a number of Europeans. Has it fallen within your observation to know, whether, among the lower Europeans so emplojed, there exists a disposition to oppressor domineer EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 177 domineer over the native people ? — It very often happens to be the case W. B. &:iiih, it not particularly restricted by their employers-. Esq. ' v ' I?o you conceive that the frequent exercise of a coercive power on the part of government, to repress such abuses, would produce any unfavour- able effect upon the general' estimate of the European character on the part of the natives? — As every European resident in the country must have a licence from the government, the punishment would be that of ordering them to the presidency, nothing further. Do the natives of rank spend much of their superfluous wealth in the purchase of European commodities ? — None at all, I believe, except in a very few instances. The Witness is directed to withdraw. It being then proposed to adjourn this Committee till to-morrow ; The same is agreed to, and ordered accordingly. Die Martis, 13° Ajmlis, 1813. The Earl of Buckinghamshire in the Chair. Order of adjournment read. The Counsel are called in. The proceedings of this Committee yesterday are read. Then Sir CHARLES WARRE MALET, Baronet, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examiaed as follows . (By Counsel. .) — How long were you in the service of the East India ShC.lV.Maht, Company ? — Eight and twenty years. Bart. 2 A 173 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC.W. Makt, In what year did you go to India ? — In the year 1 7/0. Bart. 1 •> ' In what department of the East- India Company's service were you ? — I went out a writer. To which presidency ? — Bombay. In what parts of the country did you reside between the years 17/0 and ? 775 ? — After being some time in Bombay, i had an opportunity of going with Mr. Moore, who went up after the plague at Bussora, to Bu c sora, touching in my way at Muscat, Gombroon, and Bushire^ during the interval of 1775 ; I likewise visifed Surat and Cambay, from motives of curiosity, and to endeavour to make myself better acquainted with the country in which I was come to reside. Were not you afterwards appointed resident with the Nabob of Cam- bay ? — I think in the year 1774. During what time did you reside in Cambay in that capacity? — I think I resided there about ten years ; but having been suddenly called from the country, and not having any memorandum with me, though I have a regular scries of them, I cannot answer exactly to the year. During the time you resided there, were you alone, or were there anv other Europeans ? — I had no other Europeans attached to my station ; I had occasional visitors. After having resided that time at Cambay, did you reside also at Surat, and in what capacity? — During the time that I was resident at Cambay, I was appointed Persian interpreter to the settlement of Surat, and during that time I was likewise appointed, by the Court Of Directors in England, a member of the counciloi Iburat. Were you afterwards appointed Persian interpreter to the government and private secretary to the governor of Bombay ? — I was. Were you afterwards sent on any, and what, mission to the Malabar coast ? — I was sent upon a temporary occasion to the Siddy of Jizzera, upon the coast of Malabar. Were you ai"terwards sent upon any, and what, mission to the court of Poonah, and at what time ?— I think it was in the year 1785, that the govern- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 179 government general, at the head of which Mr. Hastings then was, applied SirC.Pf^Malef, to the government of Bombay for its acquiescence in appointing me Bait. minister plenipotentiary to the court of Poonah, on the part of the v > ' governor-general. Did not you cross the whole country of Hindostan from Bombay to Delhi, and afterwards to Calcutta ? — Subsequent to the treaty of Salbey, Madajee Scindiah, a principal Marhatta chief, had been in the habit of mediating all negotiations and all intercourse with the head of the Marhatta government, the Peshwah, it was therefore thought necessary to conciliate him to my embassy ; that he should be waited on by me for that purpose, I was ordered to proceed from Bombay to join him, then being in the north of India ; I accordingly left Bombay, went to Surat, and from thence proceeded by land to join him, which 1 did at Matura, between Agra and Delhi. Did you proceed afterwards to Calcutta ? — After having had a meeting with Scindiah and the King, through the mediation of Mr. James Anderson, the resident at Scindiah's Durbar, I proceeded to Calcutta, having crossed the Dooab from Agra to Cawnpore, and thence by water. Did you afterwards proceed to execute your office of resident at Poonah ? — On my arrival at Calcutta I found Sir John M'Pherson in the chair ; my appointment was completed under his administration ; and I proceeded with the governor-general's orders and credentials by water to Bombay, and from thence to Poonah. Did you likewise attend the Marhatta army in its motions in the field in the war against Tippoo ? — Very soon after my arrival at Poonah, having had an audience with the Peshwah, I proceeded to join the army, the minister being then at the head of it. How long did you continue to be plenipotentiary, at Poonah, of the English government ? — I went there in the year 1/86, and remained there till the year 1797, to the best of my recollection. Were you afterwards in the council of Bombay and governor there ? — I had been appointed to the council at Bombay, but on my arrival I did not take my place, intending immediately to pi oceed to Europe ; but some occurrences taking place on the coast of Malabar, that required the then governor's presence, I was desired to take upon me the administra- 2 A 2 tion 130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC.lV.MdLt, tion of the government, which I did, for, I believe, about nin; months. Bart. Mr Duncan was then governor. "V" By your residence during so great a length of time in the country of India, and in so many various parts of it, have you had many opportu- nities, and did you use those opportunities, of observing the character, manners, and habits, and prejudices of the Hindoos ? — 1 endeavoured to make use of the opportunities which fell in my way, on principles of duty and inclination, and to make myself a useful servant of the Company. Do you understand the Hindostanee and Persian languages ? — I did understand the Hindostanee and Persian languages. From your observation of the character of the Hindoos, do you think any, and what consequences, would result from any considerably increased intercourse of Englishmen with them in the interior of the country ?— Much would depend upon the description of Englishmen ; for instance, if they were well acquainted with their manners, and their habits were pacific, and at the same time under perfect controul, probably no in- convenience might attach to their residence among the Indians. Supposing them not to be acquainted with the manners of the natives, and under a very strong controul, what do you think would be the consequence to the peace and happiness of the natives of the country ? — I think that the manners of the people of India do not only partake of the diversity common to human nature in personal character, but they partake of an extraordinary difference from their various casts of classifi- cations. I think, from the great peculiarities of their general national and personal character, that much difficulty must arise to people that are not acquainted with them, in their intercourse with them, to avoid those differences which I think would be very likely to happen. If it is agreeable to your Lordships, I will give you a recapitulation of the classes of a particular description, with respect to the difficulty of their being reconciled to European intercourse without a knowledge of their cha- racters. There are certain people who you may treat with every kind of indignity and they would submit; there are others who would take fire where no ir.dignity was meant, and the consequences might be very disagreeable. Can you state any differences among the Hindoos themselves, which would in some instances make it extremely dangerous for persons unac- quainted EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 181 cjuainted with their manners and habits to give them even involuntary Sir CIV. Maid. , offence ? — Most undoubtedly ; even the touching them might give them Bait, offence; even the passing by while they are dressing their victuals, and *■ — — — - y ■ • ' your shade falling upon their cookery, would give them offence; it would even so far give offence as to cause their victuals being thrown away. In such cases of offence is that class of Hindoos extremely resentful? — Those who assume the greatest purity are the Bramins ; and though they may be resentful, yet probably their resentment would not be fol- lowed by those strong marks of it which it would be from some of the military classes. Do you think that if an intercourse were allowed between Europeans unacquainted with the Hindoos, and such Hindoos as you have just stated, it might be attended with considerable confusion in the country ? — I think it would be very difficult indeed for Europeans unacquainted with the manners and prejudices of the natives of India, to have indis- criminate intercourse with them without being subject to give occasional offence. Have you seen instances of such offence given even by prudent men in that country ? — I have known gentlemen who have been in the habit of residing in our own settlements, where the submissiveness of the na- tives in general prepares them to expect the same among the foreign powers, have found a very different reception on going amongst the na- tives under their own governments. I have likewise known two instances; one of them was a fatal one, the other might have been fatal, but for interference ; the first was of a gentleman at Poonah, who had lately ar- rived in the country, who had got the command of a regular corps in the service of the Peshwah, and upon some rash conduct on his part towards the minister, who likewise commanded the army, on leaving the Durbar tent he was shot in his way home. The other was a woman ; she was a Mrs. Mall, but I believe a French woman, who got the command of a corps in the Peshwah's service, and on displaying some hauteur, she was seized and thrown into an hill fort, where I believe she would have been put to death, either by slow means, or by the executioner ; but hearing of her situation, I interposed in her favour, and got her released. Is there a considerable difference between the manners of the natives of Hindostan at the presidencies, and in the interior of the country ? — Very material. Will v~ V62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirCJF.Malnt } Will you stale what the difference is, and the cause of it? — There is Bart. a difference in their genera! deportment; there is a more general submis- 1 sivcness to Europeans, and I suppose they feel that from the protection of our courts they.may go to a certain degree of submissheness without any particular bad consequences ultimately resulting; but that not being the case under the native governments, irritability once provoked may be attended with more dangerous consequences than the anger of a person -who received any ill treatment under our own governments. Have you observed, whether Englishmen upon their first arrival treat the natives, generally, with more contempt than after they are acquainted with their manners ? — There is a great deal of difference between them-, there is courtesy in one and arrogance in another ; it may be from dis- position or misconception, but I think, they do not on their first arrival treat them so favourably as after having been some time acquainled with them. Are you of opinion, that the strength of the British government in India mainly depends upon its justice and moderation with respect to the natives ? — 1 am certainly of opinion, that the firmness and vigour of all government must depend upon its moderation and justice; but I think that justice and moderation is particularly incumbent in India, where so many pr judices are to be encountered; and I rhink that justice can only be properly directed to its end by knowledge, I mean knowledge of the natives. Are you of opinion that an influx of Englishmen into the interior, where there are no courts holding criminal jurisdiction over Englishmen, might tend to create discontents, and to shake the allegiance of the na- tives? — 1 think that in the present state of India there must always be people evil minded, and ready to take advantage of every opportunity to throw our sway and our character into disrepute ; and I think that by im- proper people being brought in contact with the natives of the country, unprepared for tlio-e conciliating measures which knowledge alone can produce, great evil may be produced; and if discontent is engendered, I think it very likely that their fidelity and allegiance may be shaken, and a great evil ensue ; for the whole of India, that maybe commonly called our empire, is by no means in a state of absolute government by us ; it is in a state of controul and coercion ; it may be called alliance, but it is .alliance of coercion and ascendancy on our side. Are you of opinion, if such discontents were to take place in the country, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 183 country, as has been stated in your last answer, that the native princes, SirC.fV.Mah', now in alliance with us, would be ready to take advantage of those dis- -l^ut- contents, and to act hostilely against us? — 1 think that an evil mind ' \r "* once produced, the proceeding to hostility must entirely depend upon power. The power of those native princes you mean? — Yes, because I pre- sume that the inclination would be excited by the evil mind. If a free trade were allowed by law between this country and India, with restrictions that traders should go only to the presidencies, and enter the country with the licences of the Company, is it your opinion that' the government would have great difficulties in refusing licences upon' application from such persons ? — I think that considerable odium would attach to the government ; and I think that probably the obloquy of" causing the defalcation of a speculation might be endeavoured to be at- tached to the power that prevented its being carried to its wished-for con- summation. Do you think that it is probable such traders, not finding a sale for their commodities at the presidencies, would continually apply to the government to go up the country, and to sell their commodities there ? — ■ I think it is very difficult to assign any limit to the importunity of cu- pidity where there is an object, and gain is a strong stimulus. I think it would be very difficult to resist the importunity of people in that situa- tion, where there was a power to grant it. Are you of opinion that the law, as it at present stands, would be suffi- cient to enable the governor of India to prevent such persons from going up the country without licences, if their number was greatly increased? I am not exactly acquainted with their power. As the law stood when you were in India ? — I am not exactly acquaint- ed with the precise clause that precluded the permission of English itinerants. I know very well that there was a preclusion, but as to the precise terms of the clause I do not recollect it ; as to the power, I think I have answered it in a previous answer. Could the government exert that power ? — By a proper use of the mili- tary force, there is no doubt they could enforce obedience to their orders, becauss 151 AHNUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC. W.Mald, because they have always a strong military force at the presidencies on the spot. From your observation of the natives of Hindostan, do you think they have either any want, or any desire, for European commodities in that country ? — Less, perhaps, than in almost any other part of the world ; but there is a considerable latitude may be taken in answering that question ; that is to say, at our own presidencies some of the natives have in a cer- tain degree given way to the introduction of many articles never thought of in the interior at Bombay. There is a tribe of people, the Parsees, who came to India, on the first promulgation of Mahometanism, from Persia ; they seem to adopt more our luxuries than any of the others, and many of them are of considerable wealth, and can enter into any of those little gratifications, and do doit; as for instance, they drink wine, and enter pretty freely into convivial pleasures ; they have their entertainments, and I believe frequently entertain European gentlemen. Have the mass of the Hindoo population in India the means, if they have the desire, of purchasing European commodities or manufactures ; by the mass of the Hindoo population I mean the cultivators of the land ? — They certainly do not desire them, it seems a thing quite foreign to their state of society ; and if they had the inclination they certainly have not the means ; but all their little articles of dress are of a peculiar form and make, and quite out of the idea of any thing we have : nothing we make in this country is applicable to certain parts of their dress. Does it appear to you that the more opulent Hindoos, who have in- tercourse with Europeans, have much taste for European articles, or use them much? — In the whole course of my journey from Surat to Delhi, which is through the root of the peninsula, and visiting the principal ze- mindars and rajahs in my route, I recollect very little of European articles, or European manufactures ; I may have seen here and there some glass ware and some specimens of our arms, they are fond of them ; but I do not remember seeing a' carriage. Broad-cloth you will see, which is used in their saddlery, for their shoes, and here and there you will see it used as a cloak, with a hood to throw over their heads ; but all the com- mon people have a thing of their own called a comely, made of wool. I scarcely remember an article of English manufacture, except those I have mentioned, and those are very rare indeed. I carried some afticles of European fabric to the Mogul and to Scindia, mostly of cut glass. If any of the more opulent natives of Hindostan wish for European ar- ticles, JSAST-IWDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, 183 tides, have they at present abundance of means of procuring them ?— Sir C. i l V. Male 7, Most undoubtedly, through our presidencies ; our different presidencies Bart. are emporiums, having regular native agents or delolls, and all India has a ' r ' communication with them. There is scarcely a man of eminence but what has a correspondence with the presidencies through the bankers of India. According to your observation, was the supply of European articles in India, during the time you were there, fully adequate to the demand for them among the natives of the country ? — I believe always, except fire- arms. They would have been very happy to have got a great many more than they did, but I believe they got too many, indeed I am sure they did. As to all other articles of European manufacture, did the supply in the market appear to be fully equal to the demand ? — I believe abun- dantly so. If a free trade were opened between this country and India, is it your opinion that the present power which is vested in the local governments, to remove persons engaging in such trade and misconducting themselves in the country, must be continued for the peace of the natives and secu- rity of the government? — I humbly conceive that the necessity of it would be increased by the influx of a greater number of those people who originated the necessity of giving the order at all. (Examined by the Committee.) Under the impression of the mischief that might arise from improper persons going into the interior, do you conceive that a government, dis- •posed to discharge its duty, would make no distinction with respect ro applications for that purpose ? — A government I must always suppose to be the seat of discretion, and in its discretionary wisdom 1 must conceive it would make allowances for different people, and use its discretion in granting or withholding it. Is it your opinion that a great number of persons would, by permission or otherwise, get into the interior of the country ? — I know very wel: th£t it is constantly the study, and that many, with the utmost care to prevent, do get in ; and when there is a greater influx of Europeans, by the mode to which I presume you allude (the throwing open the trade), mere cer- tainly would be a much greater probability of their setting in. 2B , If 186 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirCJV. Muktf If an intercourse should be allowed with three or four thousand miles of Bart. coast, and to the islands in the Indian seas, having innumerable ports and I v ' creeks where vessels might enter, will it be possible to restrain or check the disorders and irregularities likely to arise in such an intercourse? — I presume that it would be utterly impossible to check them in the fisrt in- stance, and that the consequence might be hostility with the different parts of the coast, if we chose to take up the cause of those persons. Will it be possible for the natives to obtain redress for the violences and oppressions that they truy suffer from the British traders unless by going to Calcutta, Madras, or Bombay ? — They certainly couid have no redress without appealing to the ruling power of whatever part of the coast it might happen, wherever the offence took place ; in the limits of Calcutta, Madras, or Bombay, they must appeal to the government of the presi- dency. If an intercourse with licences should be allowed to the ports of India, would it not be difficult to prevent the traders from eluding the restric- tions and limitations, and to trade and go where it might best suit their purpose^ r — I believe that is answered in the preceding answers - , that there would be an increased difficulty in preventing, eluding, them. Is it your opinion that the East-India Company has usually sent to India as much- of our woollen and other manufactures as there was a de- mand for ? — I have always understood that there has been a greater quan- tity sent out by the Company, in consequence of their desire to increase the manufactures of the country ; that they have taken out more than they have really had occasion for, and more than there was a profitable vent for. Does not the certainty and regularity of payment, and the confidence there is in the East-India Company, give that Company great advantages in all commercial tiansactions, and in their investments ?-^The capital and the creditof the Company are I believe indisputable, and stand upon the highest possible ground ; but I have never been engaged in any com- mercial line in the Company's service, mv general attention to commerce has been with a political view ; therefore I cannot speak more decidedly to that point. Are the people of India, considering their few wants, their manner of living and habits, likely to consume more of our manufactures than they have hitherto dene l~— With respect to my general ideas of the commerce of EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 187 (of India, and the genius of the Marhatta government respecting any idea SirC.W.Mald, of increase of commerce, I will read you what I communicated to my Bart. Lord Cornwallis in the year 1 788, and I think the common course of ' v- ' cause and effect has been produced ; I do not think there is any proba- bility of increase. Are the Malays or the natives of the Philippine or other islands in those seas likely to use any considerable quantity of our manufactures? — I am quite ignorant of the customs and manners of the Malays. Are the people of India liable to change their customs and habits ? — I suppose that they are least liable and least disposed to change in their manners of any people in the world. I suppose their present customs must have been from the earliest stage of civilization ; the figures upon their excavations have the same dress as at this day. Has not the East-India Company better means of introducing our ma- nufactures into India than private traders ? — Their establishments of ser- vants, their establishments of correspondence, every thing that is con- nected with the East-India Company, certainly gives them a much greater advantage than any private trader can possess. Are not the warehouses in our principal establishments in India fre- quently overstocked with British manufactures, and the markets so glut- ted as to be often sold greatly below their value ? — I think I have already answered that question. Might not the taking away great commercial advantages now enjoyed ;by the East-India Company ultimately greatly injure the British interests in India ? — In as far as it might have a tendency to undermine the com- mercial intercourse between the two countries, it might certainly injure the interests of the natives. Is it your opinion that there is an opening for the employment of a larger capital ta the Indian trade than is at present employed in it ? — That is a subject that has never come much under my consideration. I believe I had the honour to observe before, that my attention to the conv mercial concerns of the Company has been in a political light, and not in detail at all. Is it your opinion, that if ships were allowed to trade in the Indian > seas ; it would be possible to confine them to particular parts ?~-I con- g B 2 ceivc 1 8* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE rC.lV.Malet, ceive it to be impossible otherwise than by command and restriction, and Bait. then the motions of men when they are at sea are like a bird in the air, i v » it i s impossible to controul their going where they please. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then EWAN LAW, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : Ezvan Law, (By Counsel.) You have been in the civil service of the East- India. Esq. Company ? — Yes. "v — On the Bengal establishment ? — Yes. In what parts of India have you been principally stationed? — I resided almost the whole time I was in India at Patna, in the province of Bahar. How long have you been returned from India ? — Thirty-two years. In what department of the service were you engaged ? — In the revenue and government department entirely. Let it be supposed that an open trade were established between this country and India, and that the Indian coasts, generally speaking, were laid open to the access of British subjects; and let it be supposed further, that the law interdicted such persons from penetrating into the interior of the country, is it your opinion such interdiction would prove effectual ? — I conceive not. Will you state for what reason you conceive that the interdiction would prove ineffectual ? — The coasts subject to British government are so ex- tensive, I think it would be almost impossible in any way to prevent, supposing the British subjects to visit different parts of the coasts, and if so inclined, to prevent their having access 19 the interior; that there would be no direct and physical means of preventing them ; it would be impossible so to guard the coast as to prevent it. Do you apprehend that from such a resort of British subjects into the nterior of the country, any consequences might arise inauspicious, either o the welfare of the natives or to the stability of the British government ? I suppose that by the unlimited power of mariners and others passing along 1 to EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS: 189 along the coast to land where they pleased, that the inhabitants of those Ewan Law, coasts will be subjected to innumerable vexarions and excesses, for which Esq. they could never obtain any redress; and should they be disposed to enter ' v ' into the interior of the country, either for the purpose of taking a sta- tion there, or to go to the dominions of the native powers, there would be no sufficient or immediate means of preventing them. From your knowledge of the soil, climate, produce, manners, and usages of India, do you apprehend that the consumption of European commodities is ever likely to be very considerably extended among the native population of that country ? — I think it is wholly improbable. (By a Lord.) If an intercourse should be allowed with three or four thousand miles of coast, and to the Islands in the Indian seas, having innumerable ports and creeks where vessels might enter, will it be pos- sible to restrain or check the disorders and irregularities likely to arise in such an intercourse ? — I conceive not. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then STANLEY CLARKE, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) How long have you been in the service of the East Stanley Clarke, India Company, and in what capacity ?— Twenty-five years in the Com- Esq. pany's service. ' ■"« ' In what service of the Company ? — In the sea service. How long have you been a commander of an East India Company's ship ? — Fifteen years. During the course of that service, have you had opportunities of being well acquainted with the Indian trade ? — Generally, certainly. Have not the captains and commanders in the East India Company's service the privilege of carrying out investments themselves from this country ? — They have. Are they in the habit of carrying out investments of English goods «md manufactures ? — Yes, a general assortment. Can 190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Stanley Clarke, Can you state from your experience in that trade, whether such invest- Esq. ments have generally found ready sale, or a heavy one ? — That very 1 v ' much depends upon the state of the market at the time. I do not think that much beneficial result is to be expected from an investment out to India, it is more dependant upon the subsequent operations. In the last answer you have stated, that the success of the East India captains, as to the outward investments, depends upon the state of the market; will you state whether generally the market has been overstocked or understocked with respect to those commodities ? — In the course of my own experience I have seldom found the market otherwise than so far fully stocked, that I have derived nothing more than very moderate ad- vantage from my outward voyage to India ; my three last voyages were to Bombay, where on the two former my adventure was chiefly in specie, from the apprehension that too large an adventure in goods would not find a market there. In your experience of the Indian trade, have you found that any, and if any, what new articles have been called for by the demands of the natives there ? — I do not recollect any articles that can be called new articles of immediate British produce, that have been called for, unless it has b:en, in a very small degree, some Manchester goods,' but to a very little account could I find vent for them, and they were chiefly taken off by Europeans. In the event of a free trade being allowed between this country and India, are you of opinion that there would be any increased demand for British commodities and manufactures i — I should think to a very little ex'enr, from the general glut of the markets. I have at this time a letter from a captain of one of the. ships that went to Madras in the last season, wherein he speaks of his great apprehensions that he shall sustain a loss upon his investment, owing to a general glut of European articles in the Madras maiket. Do you think, from your knowledge of that trade, and from the stale of the markets during the time you have been in the East India Com- pany's service, that the capital of the India Company, together with the capital of the free merchants and traders to India, is equal to carry on that trade to its full amount ; the whole of the trade, export and import ? —Yes, I do ; or nearly so. Aj-e you acquainted with the eastern islands, and the trade to them ?— I have EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 191 I have gone in the course of my voyages to the eastward. I have been Stanley C/arfo, to Amboyna and Bally Town, and to some of the eastern streights, but I Esq. did not find any facijity of disposing of any European articles. v____ v ____» Are any, and if any, what European articles in demand among the na tives of the eastern islands? — I really do not recollect any European arti- cles, unless it were a very small quantity of cutlery, given in exchange for poultry and such minor description of. provisions for the supply of the ships. Do you think that British woollens could be disposed of to any »reat extent among those islands ? — I am not aware that they could. If a free trade were opened between this country and the eastern islands, do you think, it would be possible to prevent the smuggling of tea from China, through the medium of ships going among the eastern islands? — I apprehend it certainly would be practicable to carry teas to the eastern islands from China. In what manner do you think it probable that would be done ? — It might be done by the means of Chinese junks, if it were found sufficiently an object to enter upon such an operation. Is not the very high duty upon tea a very strong temptation to attempt the smuggling of it, both from China and into this country ? — Certainly. (Examined by the Committee.), Do you believe that teas are now smuggled into this country to any extent ? — I should think a very inconsiderable extent. By whom are the teas sold at Canton ? — They are sold by an exclusive class of merchants designated the Hong Merchants. Is the Committee to understand that the monopoly of the sale of teas is in the hands of the Hong Merchants ? — Certainly ; under the immediate authority of government they have the exclusive disposal of teas and every description of produce to European traders, for which they are held responsible, as also for the good conduct of those that they immediately deal with. You IB* MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON TH£ 6'tunhy Clarke, You have said that teas may come from China in junks ; is it customary £>*.]. for the coasting ships from Bengal and Bombay to bring teas from China? v. v ' — For the supply of India, Are teas carried from China to India in any great extent^ — I apprehend principally for the consumption of the European residents in India. In case of teas being smuggled, in the way you have stated, by junks from China, do you apprehend it would come from the Hong merchants, or from other persons in China ? — I do not understand its coming properly under the description of smuggling, that is to say, how far it might be viewed as smuggling from China. There are many outside traders, who sell tea and other ai tides to a large amount to our officers, for which they pay the Hong merchant for his signature or chop. Is the monopoly of tea in the hands of the Hong merchants, or not ? — I think it is officially understood to be so, though not always so carried into effect. Would not the Hong merchants prefer selling their teas tofthe Com- pany's ships in preference to any accidental adventurers ?— I think the Hong merchants are very ready to deal with whoever they consider safe to deal with, that will give them the best price. Is it your opinion, that if the out-ports of the United Kingdom were permitted to send -hips to the ports of India and the islands, they would be able to dispose of more of our manufactures than are now usually sent there ? — So far as my own judgment goes, I should think to a very small degree. If an intercourse with licences should be allowed to the ports of India, would it not be difficult to prevent the traders ftom eluding restrictions and limitations, and to trade and go where it might best suit their pur- poses ? — 1 should suppose immediately at the ports of the presidencies, that the Company's authority might have the effect of restriction and of limitation ; as to the facility of their going up the country, 1 cannot say how far that might be attended with difficulty. If an intercourse with licences should be allowed to the ports of India, or even limited to the Presidencies, wouid it not be difficult to prevent the traders from going where it might best suit" their purpose? — I certainly think it weuid. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 103 Then MARTIN LINDSAY, Esquire, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) I believe you are now a commander of an Indiaman in Martin Lindsay, the service of the East- India Company ? — Not now ; I have been. Esq. Have you been any time in the marine service of the Company as a commander ? — I have been in the service as an officer and commander from the year 1783 to the year 1795.O. It is already in evidence that the commander of the Company's vessels in the service of the Company are allowed to trade on their own account-, free of freight ; I wish to know whether you were in the habit of avail- ing yourself of that privilege ? — I was, undoubtedly. From your experience in that species of commerce can you state what degree of encouragement the markets of India furnish to the exportation of European commodities ? — When first in the service, the profits arising from the opportunity which, as an ollicer and a captain, I had, was tole- rable ; but since the facility that has been given to the prvate merchants to carry out goods, the profits arising from the captain's investments has considerably failed From your personal experience is it your apprehension that the mar- kets of that country are fully stocked with European produce ? — I should imagine it was. Do you apprehend that a sufficient capital is now embarked in theex- portation of European articles to India to supply the market ? — I should imagine there was as much capital as could be employed to advantage. Have you ever made voyages to China ? — I have made three voyages to China. Are you acquainted with the islands of the eastern Archipelago ? — The last voy;.ge I went in the Cirencester. I went the Eastern passage ; and the course was amon°; the eastern islands. ~ v— o On the supposition that the export an i import trade of India were ge- nerally laid open to the ports of the United Kingdom, the China trade- 2 C being m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Marti a Lindsay, being left under the restrictions now imposed on it, is it your opinion that Esq. an illicit importation of tea into this country would be likely to take *~» — ~v — — ' place in a considerable degree? — It certainly would give an opportunity, in the event of a peace with America, that there might be a communica- tion, by American ships, to ships from the outports meeting them in the eastern ishnds, and there receiving their teas, and through the medium of America, getting to this country; and also by meeting the China junks ; though that pro'iab'y might be more difficult, by not so easily -arranging the matters with the China merchants. Do China junks often sail from the port of Canton to the Eastern Islands? — They frequently come to Batavia; I believe they do not go to what are properly called the Eastern Islands ; they do not go far to the .eastward so frequently. Do you apprehend- that they might convey teas to the port of Batavia, and there meet the vessels of private British traders ? — Undoubtedly they could to Batavia; I have frequently come down with them. You have stated, that American vessels might be employed as inter- mediates in the illicit traffic of which you have spoken ; do you not conceive it possible that Portuguese ships might be employed in the same manner ? — I apprehend they might. In your apprehension, would not the high duties at present imposed on tea operate as a bounty on such contraband traffic ?— I should consider that it would. Are you acquainted with the character of the population of the Eastern Islands? — 'During the last voyage I had an opportunity of seeing several of the islands, and found the population considerable. Are they civilized, or savage and ferocious people? — There are very different descriptions of people ; those of Celebes and Borneo are wa like and treacherous ; in some of the smaller islands 1 hud them very peace- able and quiet. Are there not a great number of creeks and bays in the island of Celebes accessible to vessels of si-ze ? — I believe there are. D'j you conceive that the fjrocity of the people of some of tl e islands in question would operate as any material lmpedimeat to that spe-.. , • uf contraband BAST-INDIA COMPANTS AFFAIRS. 195 contraband trade through the medium of the Eastern Islands, of which Marl!nUndsay y you have before spoken r — It would certainly render it le^s convenient, Esq. undoubtedly. v — — v — "-* Will it operate as an absolute impediment ? — Not as an absolute impediment ; but it would be attended with considerable increased difficulty. Are you acquainted with the detail of the commerce in tea, as it takes place in Canton, between the Chinese merchants and traders wishing to export the article ? — I am afraid I cannot answer that, except merely by the general belief I have heard in Canton. They are brought by the Company the season previous ; and there is a great quantity more tea brought down, which the merchants bring down in hopes of selling to- American or any other country ships. Is the sale of the teas brought down to Canton for exportation ex- clusively in the hands of a company of merchants, or is il distributed amongst individuals ? — Amongst individuals. Do you conceive that any restrictions at present imposed by the Chinese government on the sale of teas for exportation, would prevent that illicit trade in tea which you have before described as probable ? — I apprehend the government of China would not prevent it going from the port of Canton ; the only difficulty would arise in settling the busi- ness with the merchants. I allude to the business of the junks carrying it down to the Eastern Islands. Do you think it probable that tea would be conveyed to the bays and coast of the Eastern Islands, for the purpose of illicit importation into Europe, by country vessels from India ?— I should imagine, if they were certain of meeting with those European vessels, they would have no objections to bring teas down, receiving freight for the same. Is it your opinion, that in the event of an open trade with India, vessels resorting from this country to the Indian ports, on commercial speculations, would generally meet with disappointment ? — I certainly think they would. Is it probable, in your apprehension, that the people of the Eastern Islands v. ill ever furnish a considerable demand for European manu- factures ? — The produce of any of the Eastern Islands at which I have 2 C 2 been* 196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE MM'tinLwdsayi been, certainly do not produce any articles that I think could be Esq. useful or manuiactured in this country, with the exception of a little ^— v - tortoise shell, or mother-of-pearl, oyster shells and tea. Is it probable, in your apprehension, that the people of the eastern islands will ever furnish a considerable demand for European manufac- tures ? — In the last voyage which I made, knowing that it was to be late in the season, and that I must go to the eastward, 1 took out two or three articles which might be useful, and sell to profit, in the eastward. I took out a considerable quantity of check handkerchiefs, made at Glasgow ; but when I offered them to the natives, they knew the difference between those of the same kind of manufacture made in India, and I was obliged to bring the greater part back again. * Do you apprehend the taste they discovered on this occasion for Euro- pean commodities, is a fair sample of their general taste for such com- modities ? — I found their wish for European articles confined to very few articles, perhaps tire arms would have been one, they would have taken them and our ammunition if IJiad had them. (Examined by the Committee.) You have stated, that in the event of an open trade, you think that vessels resorting from this country to India on commercial speculations, would generally meet with disappointment, what do you conceive those commercial speculations would be? — I should conceive, as a general merchant, he would probably try staples, and all the various articles used by Europeans, such as I myself took out when a trader and com- mander. Do you happen to know whether the Hong merchants are not consi- dered as having the monopoly of the sale of teas ?— I have conceived so certainly. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then LESTOCK WILSON, Esquire, is again called in ; and examined as follows : Lestoek Wilson, ( By Counsel.) In your former examination you stated that you made Esq. several vuvages to China, and was acquainted with the eastern islands. Ob EA&T-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 197 On the supposition that an open trade was established between the ports Iscstork Wils9<:, of the United Kingdom and the East Indies, and China being left under Esq. the restrictions by which it is now contruuled, is it your opinion that * v ' illicit importations of tea would take pLxe into this country ? — I have no doubt that they would, in a degree. In what manner do you conceive that such an importation would be effected? — I have no doubt but that private ships would obtain tea easily in India, and of course they would smuggle it if they could; we are all aware that a smuggler is restrained by no law, or cannot well be restrained. On a supposition that private vessels were by law interdicted from China, through what channels do you conceive they would procure a shipment of teas ? — The Malay islands in particular, Manilla certainly, if they went there; in short, the opportunities of their getting tea are innumerable, and the very worst kinds of tea too. In the event of a peace with the Continental powers, do you apprehend that the illicit importation of which you have spoken would be in any considerable degree increased ? — While the duty continued so high as to make it worth the smuggler's while, there is no question about it; it would, I apprehend, become then as it was before the commutation act. In your former examination you described the character of the Malays somewhat fierce ? — They will rob you of property. If you go on shore with a pair of silver buckles in your shoes, they will take them from you ; if a man goes ashore with property about him he will be murdered by them ; and they will certainly cut your ship off if they can, there is nothing but the greatest caution can prevent it. You stated in a former answer, that it would be likely for British traders to procure illicit shipments of tea amongst the eastern islands ; do you conceive that the predatory and ferocious habits of the natives of those islands would operate as an impediment to the illicit trsde in ques- tion ? — I should not suppose it would at all ; ships would go there armed, and they would not think it worth while to rob you of tea ; the China Junks are in the habit of trading direct from China to the different is- lands, and of course they bring their tea. Can you state whether Chinese junks are not in the frequent habits of resorting to the ports of Batavia from Canton ? — They used to be former- ly, I have seen several there. I muit observe, that Manilla is a much more 198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lestock Wilson, more facile place for the conveyance of tea than any other, because they Esq. can go in both monsoons fiom China and back again ; but as to Batavia,, *— — -v ' they can only go in six months, and return the next. Do you know whether there is not a regular export of tea from Canton to the ports of Batavia ? — I should apprehend not in a considerable de- gree ; the Dutch of course, when they used the trade, had their own ships to carry it from Canton to Batavia. Are there not some Chinese Colonies settled on some parts of the coast of Batavia ? — There are a considerable number of Chinese at Java and Batavia; they are, I believe, the principal cultivators of Java, both in sugar and corfee ; they are laborious, and I believe the Malays are na- turally indolent. Are those persons not supplied with tea from the ports of China ? — Probably they are. You are not able to speak definitively on that subject ? — No, I am not. Are you acquainted with the detail of the commerce in tea between the Hong merchants at Canton and traders exporting the article ? — In some degree I am, having bought it for my own purposes as a comman- der. I wish to know whether the sale of tea is a monopoly in the hands of the Hong merchants, or not ? — I apprehend not ; you may buy tea from one of the outside men, as they are called ; it is very well known that the Chinese authorize a certain number of merchants, who are particular- ]y licensed to trade with Europeans, and that a stranger is more secure in dealing with a Hong merchant, because his debts are guaranteed by the government, than if he deals indiscriminately with people not of that Hong; for instance, the Chinese government have, on the failure of one ef those, adopte.i the principle of paying off his debts; others give you a sort of promise, that is, they teH you, if you contract a debt with an outside man, you must not lock to government for the payment of that debt ; at least, that is my understanding of the matter. Is the Committee to understand, that the monopoly enjoyed by the Hong merchants, is generally a monopoly of the trade with Europeans? — I do not think they have a monopoly, because you are not prohibited from dealing with any merchant that you please; there may be some regulations' EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. J 99 regulations which we do not know of, by which a man, not a Hong, must Lestoik Wilson, trade under the authority of one of the Hong; but that, I am sure, I Esq. cannot speak to. ' v f Do you conceive that any restrictions imposed by the Chinese govern- ment on the exportation of tea, would ope;at<* as an impediment to the shipment of teas for those irregular purposes you have described? — I do not apprehend there are any restrictions on the exportation of tea by the Chinese government ; they are glad you should export as much as possi- ble. ' I believe it pays a large duty to government upon exportation, and they wish as much of it should go out of the kingdom as possible. Can you state what is the quality of the tea sold by the Hong mer- chants to the Company, comparatively with that of the teas sold by the outside men ? — It is a very dangerous thing dealing with an outside man in general. There are some very honest men, but you sometimes get imposed upon ; they sell you stuff" thet is good for nothing; and for se- curity, I should never choose to deal with any other than a Hong mer- chant; with respect to dealing in the great and large concerns, it would be impossible to deal with any thing else with safety but a Hong mer- chant. Are not the teas purchased by the Company at Canton, generally speaking, the best which the market supplies? — I apprehend they are, that is, they suit their investment as they judge the market here requires; they buy teas of various prices, generally the best of its kind, but there are several denominations of tea> The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then Sir GEORGE THOMAS STAUNTON, Baronet, is called in i and, having been sWDrtf, is examined as follows : (By Counsel) I believe you are a supercargo in the service of the East- Sir Geor<*c T. India Company ?— Yes. Staunton, Bart. How long have you been in the service of the East-India Company ?— . Fifteen years. I believe you accompanied Lord Macartney's embassy to Pekin ?— Yes. Do 200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir George T. Do you understand the Chinese language ? — Yes. Staunton, Bart. ' v ' Have you had an opportunity, from understanding the language, and having considerable commerce with that people, of becoming better ac- quainted than most Europeans are with their character and habits? — I should think that a knowledge of the languages may possibly give me some advantage over other Europeans in those respects. Are you also well acquainted with the commerce of China ? — Not more than other gentlemen residing there ; but I conceive myself to have a competent knowledge or the commerce of China. Can you state from your knowledge of the Chinese, whether or not they are extremely jealous and suspicious of strangers ? — I should consi- der that they are extremely jealous and suspicious of strangers. Can you state to the Committee any principle of government or subor- dination which is entertained generally by the Chinese, that renders them peculiarly averse to casual and unconnected trading adventurers ? — I should conceive that the principle of responsibility, which is exacted from all persons under that government, would render them extremely averse to a trade carried on without an efficient controul. Will you state to the Committee to what extent that principle of re- sponsibility acts under the government of China ? — In every situation under that government, both of a public and of a private nature, the master of a family is responsible for the inmates of that family, the father for his children, the magistrate for the inhabitants of his district. In consequence of that principle, does it not appear to you that the Chinese would consider casual and unconnected trading adventurers as in a complete state of disorder and anarchy ? — They would judge of them, I should imagine, according to their conduct. Judging by the conduct of casual and unconnected traders, can you state what regulations have been enacted in China, in former times, to re- strain such adventurers ? — The trade at Canton is limited to a certain number of persons, who are called Hong merchants, and who are requir- ed to be responsible for all foreigners who frequent that port ; and they are limited, one to a particular district in that country. Are UAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 201 Are they not also prohibited from residence ? — They are only allowed Sir George T. to reside while ships are in the port; Staunton, Bart. Were not also the ships disarmed upon their arrival ? — I understand that that was the practice, but not so within my memory. Were they not prohibited from any general intercourse with the na- tives ? — They were. In the actual state of things, have not those severe laws been modified in practice, and in what manner ? — They have been certainly modified considerably in practice, so as to render them less oppressive and less burdensome to strangers. I believe now the ships are not disarmed ? — They are not. And more intercourse is allowed than formerly ? — A greater intercourse is tolerated. Have not actual advances been made at Canton to a direct and confi- dential intercourse with the servants of the East India Company ? — There have been such advances in a late instance. Is it your opinion that the general causes of the suspicion and jealousy of the Chinese, with respect to strangers, have been diminished or de- creased ? — As far as concerns their character I conceive it is diminished^ as far as concerns their power I conceive it to be increased. In your opinion, does that jealousy and suspicion of the Chinese people which you have stated, expose our commerce with China to con- siderable danger ? — It is certainly extremely precarious. Can you state any instances of the actual exclusion of any nation, ge- nerally, from the ports of China, or from particular ports of China, at this time ? — I understand that the ships of Russia are excluded from all the ports of China, and the English nation is certainly excluded from the port of Chusan, where it was formerly admitted. Can you state whether such exclusions have taken place in consequence of slight or great provocations ? — I am not acquainted with the causes of the English being excluded from the port of Chusan, but I have under- stood that there was no adequate provocation. • ' a D T* 202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir George T. Do you know the cause of the exclusion of the Russians from the Staunton,- Bart. Chinese ports, generally ? — I understood it was in consequence of their v -y ' already enjoying the privilege of trading by land with China. Do you think the Chinese consider their trade with us as of any great consequence to the prosperity of their country, generally ? — They do not profess to consider it so. In your opinion what have been the causes that have so much amelio- rated the condition of the traders to China? — lhe regulations and general system under which that trade has been carried on, and the superior opi- nion the Chinese entertain of the character of foreigners on being better acquainted with them. Do you think that the conduct of the East-India Company's servants has been one of the principal causes, if not the principal cause, of such general amelioration in the condition of traders to Chin:' ? — I think the conduct of the Company's servants, and the system under which they have acted, is the principal, or one of the principal causes. Does it fall within your knowledge that the measures and conduct of the Company's servants at Canton have gained them the respect, and esteem, and confidence of the Chinese ? — I should think it has in a great measure, comparatively speaking, with their opinion of foreigners, gene- rally. Has not the unimpeachable good faith of the Company's servants con- tributed greatly to that effect?— I should certainly think so. Have not the beneficial effects of the Company's high character in China extended not only to their own officers and licensed British traders, but also to other foreigners, and particularly to the Americans ?— I am of opinion that it has. Will you state in what manner you think that has been effected? — Because (among other reasons) it has induced the Chinese to allow a con- siderable relaxation in the restrictions upon the trade generally. Are you of opinion that, at this time, the character of the Americans stands equally high in China, with respect to honour and probity, with that of the Company ?— Certainly not. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 203 Are you of opinion that the power of the Company contributes, as well Sir George '!'. as their honour and probity, to the high respect entertained for them by Staunton, Bart. the Chinese ? — .1 should think that the power and influence of the Com- » — pany have contributed to the respect that is paid them by the Chinese. Are you of opinion that the Chinese trade is capable of great improve- ment and extension upon the present system ? — 1 should think that it is capable of a gradual improvement upon the present system, and that to an unlimited extent. If we were to break the present system, and to admit the experienced and the inexperienced, the honest and the dishonest, into a participation in the China trade, what, in your opinion, would be the probable conse- quence ? — I should think it probable that disputes would arise, and that additional restrictions would be laid upon the trade ; that it would in consequence be carried on less advantageously than it is at present, and that it would be possibly suspended, and might soon cease altogether. If it did not cease altogether, is it your opinion that under such cir- cumstances it would probably decline instead of improve? — I am of opi- nion it would. Will you state what would be the condition of British subjects in China without the Company's authority to protect them? — They would be liable in many cases to oppression, and to vexatious embarrassments in the conduct of their trade in a much greater degree than they are at present. Is it your opinion, that if a King's consul were established at Canton, he would exercise the same power in protecting British subjects that is at present exercised by the Company ? — I am not acquainted with the pre- cise powers granted to King's consuls ; but, from the opinion I have of those powers, I should certainly conceive they would be insufficient for - the purposes required. Whatever powers were granted to such a consul, are you of opinion that they would be equal to those exercised at present by the servants of the Company, in protecting British subjects from the oppressions and vexations of the Chinese ? — I am not aware that any powers could be granted to a consul that would be equally effectual with the powers al- ready in the possession of the servants of the Company. 2 D 2 204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE •Sir George T. Is it your opinion, that it is of the utmost importance, if not of absc- Staunton, Dart. Jute necessity, to the preservation and improvement of the China trade, 1 v ' that it should be continued substantially on the present system, inasmuch as regards the present powers and privileges ot the Company? — That is my opinion. In your opinion, are there not many commercial cau?es, as well as po- litical ones, that render the opening of the Chinese trade inexpedient? — ■ I think there are several causes of that nature, which operate under the pecu'iar circumstances of the British trade to China. Do you think that the Americans, and other foreign traders to China, have been able, in any degree, to enter into competition with the Com- pany in the Chinese market? — It is my opinion that the Company have generally obtained a refusal of the principal articles of China produce, but that the Americans and other foreigners have certainly in some degree entered into competition with them. Do you mean in the inferior articles ?— Chiefly in the inferior articles. Is it your opinion, that the uniform price of tea is one of the conse- quences of the present system of carrying on the China trade ? — That is my opinion. Will you state bow you think the uniform price of tea is produced by the present system ? — In consequence of the East-India Company bidding singly in the market, I should conceive that the prices of tea are retained at a much lower rate than they would if a general trade were al- lowed. Are you of opinion, that one of the probable consequences of opening the trade with China would be a rise in the price of tea at Canton ? — I thjnk it is highly probable. Are you of opinion that the Company's trade to China has been of equal or greater proportionate advantage than that of the American or other foreigners ?— I am not competent to speak of the profits of individuals • but I should apprehend that the stability and credit of the Company, and the manner in which their trade is conducted, must give them great advan- tages over other foreigners. In your opinion, have the advantages that have been derived to this country from the sale of British manufactures and productions in China been EA.ST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 205 been entirely owing to the present system of carrying on that trade? — I Sir George 'I '. should think they are so in a great measure. Slaunlon, Bart. V , , Will you state, if you are able so to do, the amount of that sale at present, and in what articles ? — I believe in value about a million sterling, chiefly in woollens and metals. Can you state what you conceive would have been the difficulties of producing such a sale under the system of a free trade ? — The prejudices of the Chinese against new articles make it necessary frequently to sell them in the first instance at a loss, and continue to do so until those prejudices are removed. In the instance now stated, did the East-India Company sell British ma- nufac tires for a considerable time at a loss, in order to remove such preju- dices of the Chinese ? — It appears by the accounts of the East-India Company that they have done so ; and I have every reason to believe that they have exported British manufactures at a loss, in the manner so stated. H.f. e the East-India Company taken any other steps, by means of con- tracts with rhe Hong merchants, to force the sale of British manufactures in China? — 'Vy annually contract with the Chinese merchants for the disposal or ;h, British manufactures, in return for the teas which they purchase from them. Do you know whether a taste tor British manufactures is now so fully established in China, that the Company trade in them with a profit in res- pect to the mselves as well as to ihe nation ? — I 'hey do so, I apprehend, in regard to some articles. o 1 Some articles, you mean, which were originally sold at a loss? — Which weie originally sold at a loss, to the best of my knowledge. Do vou mean to include among those articles British woollens? — I mean, chiefly, som; particular species of British, woollens.. Can you state what the American and other foreign traders export to China? — I can speak to some articles, such as the root called Ginseng, and furs of various kinds ; these are the chief articles 1 recollect at present. Do V" o 0t j MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir George T. Do not they princip ill) carry out bullion to China ?— They have carried Staunton* Bart, out bullion to a great e.\-e. t. » I Live they been enabled to import any European manufactures into China? I do not recollect that they have ; or if they have, certainly to no considerable extent. In your opinion, is not the great attention paid by the Company to the quality of woollen goods they have exported to China, been one great cause of their success there ? — That attention has certainly contributed very materially to the success of the woollen trade in China-. Is not the Company's mark admitted in all parts of China as a satisfactory proof of the quantity and quality of the goods that are so marked ? — I have always understood so. Can you state to the Committee what, or whereabouts, is the annual consumption of tea in this country ? — I believe four and twenty or five and twenty millions of pounds weight ; and I speak of the average im- portation from China rather than the consumption in England. What do you imagine would be the consequence of any great reduction of the quantity, or deterioration of the quality of the teas that are annually imported into this country r — It would no doubt be a considerable incon- venience, as it would amount to a privation of an article in daily use. What do you think would be the consequence to the Company and to the revenue ? — The East-India Company would lose their profit in propor- tion to the diminution of the importation, and the government would lose the revenue at present raised on that importation. Do you know whether there is any peculiar nicety required in adjusting the supply of tea to this country to the demand ? — The East-India Com- pany's servants do employ great pains and labour in adjusting the supply to the consumption, both in respect to the aggregate and in respect to the different species of tea of which that aggregate consists. Are you speaking of what is done at Canton ? — Yes, of what is done at Canton. Is not tea an article that requires the nicest care and examination to prevent adulteration ? — It does; more than any other article that I know of. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 2.07 Do you know what becomes of any damaged tea which may bo in the Sir George T. possession of the Company ? — I have understood it is destroyed ; that it is Slaun'on, Bart. sent down to the mouth of the river Thames in barges, and thrown into v / the sea ; and that the officers ot His Majesty's revenue attend on those oc- casions to see that it is so destroyed. Do you mean that the Company so destroy teas which, if they chose, they might sell? — I have understood that those teas so destroyed might be sold, that is, they would find a sale in London. If the Company find they have tea of a bad quality, do you know what becomes of it r — I have known many instances in which such teas have been sent back to China, and returned upon the hands of the merchant from whom they were purchased. Will the merchant take back such tea, and allow the price of it to the Company? — The Chinese merchants have done so in several instances. Do you think the China merchants would do so to private traders ? — I should imagine not ; I know of no instance in which they have done so. Are there not certain kinds of tea the growth and manufacture of which the Company encourage, for the purpose of the general trade, which are separately unprofitable? — Not actually unprofitable, but encouraged in a larger proportion than the immediate profit arising from them would lead to. In your opinion could it be the interest of individual traders to encou- rage the growth and manufacture of such teas? — Certainly not in the same degree as it is that of the East-India Company. Will you state in what way the encouragement of the growth and ma- nufacture of such kinds of tea is important to the general tea trade ? — Because it is found that a mixture of those teas with other teas, by raising the credit of the article in England, increases the consumption generally. If a free trade were opened between this country and China, do you think it would be possible for the Company to make any calculation for suiting their tonnage to the supply of this article, or for suiting the supply to- the demand?' — If there was any considerable participation in the trade to China, it would be impossible for the Company to do either. 508 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir George T. If a free trade was open with China, do you think it would be possible Stuwiton, Bart, to prevent, by direct or indirect channels, inferior and damaged teas from i v ! 1 ' coming into the British market ? — I am not aware how they could be pre- vented, under such circumstances, from being introduced into the Brititi; market. If private ships, fitted out from British ports, were allowed to navigate directly to and from the Eastern Islands, is it your opinion that they would indirectly secure to themselves a participation in the tea trade ? — I should think they would have it in their power to purchase teas in the different ports of the Eastern Islands. Are not those seas and islands full of Chinese vessels and colonics? — There are Cninese vessels and colonists to be met with in almost every part of the Eastern Archipelago. Are you of opinion that the teas, if so procured, would p-obably be of a very interior quality to the teas imported by the East-India Company ? — « I should conceive they would probably be of an inferior quality. Are you of opinion that it is probable, notwithstanding their inferior quality, that from having evaded either the Chinese or the English duties, or bo'.h, they would supersede in a considerable degree the use of the East- India Company's teas? — It would certainly be the interest of the English merchant to import those teas, if he could in any considerable degree evade the English and Chinese duties. \-j Are not you of opinion that it also would be the interest of such trader to import tea so piocured into the ports of British India and other places where there was a demand for them ?— Supposing the demand to be similar to what it is in Great Britain, and that the teas bore the same prices, it would certainly be the interest of the merchant to import them. Do not the high duties upon tea hold out the strongest temptation to smuggling it in every way ? — I conceive that they certainly do. Have you any doubt that if private ships are allowed to trade freely to the East-Indies, that by them tea will be smuggled out of Cnma and into this country ? — I cannot speak positively in answer to that question ; but I think it probable that teas would be obtained at the Eastern Islands, and smuggled into Great Britain. (By a Lord ) Do you conceive that the influence of the Company, arising f. AST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 203 arising from the exclusive management of the British trade, has not more &"' George T. effect upon the Chinese government than anv power that could he conferred Slaunlon, Bart. .upon a consul by the Crown ? — I am not aware of any power that could v " r ■ • ' be granted to a consul appointed by the Crown that would be equal in effect to those powers which, directly or indirectly, exist in the Company's servants in China. Those powers which are derived from the manage- ment of the trade could not be conferred on a consul ; of course his power would not be equal to the power of the Company under the present system. [The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then DANIEL BEALE, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) Have you not resided at Canton for many years ?*— I Daniel Beale, resided there from the latter end of the year 1787, to the middle of the Esq. year 1797. ' v ' In what capacity did you reside there ? — I was there as Prussian Consul, and in that situation transacted extensive business as a merchant, and also as a private agent. « Had you abundant opportunity of acquiring a general acquaintance wteh the commercial facilities and methods of the Chinese ? — Most certainly. Had you an opportunity of acquainting yourself with the detail of the commerce in tea, which takes place between the servants of the East- India Company and the Hong merchants ?- — I certainly had an opportunity of knowing and being acquainted with the general commerce of China, and of course of tea among the pest. Can you generally state of what articles, or of what trade, the Hong merchants have the monopoly, if of any ? — There are a certain number of Chinese, licensed by the government, which are called Co-Hong mer- chants, or security merchants. The East-India Company's concerns, to which I mean to speak now, are so extensive that their business is par* ticipated in by all of them, in a greater or less degree. It is usual, in consequence of the division of the trade among them, for the senior Hong merchant to become the security merchant of the first English Com- pany's ship that arrives, the second in rank to the second, and so on in 2 B rotation ; 210 . MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE DanidBeale, rotation; so that it happens that a Hong merchant may, when the Com- Esq. pany's ships were sixteen in number, secure two of the Company's ships. v — — V~" ~- ' ihose Hong merchants are responsible for the good conduct and beha- viour of the captains, officers, and people belonging to the ships ; and • they are also responsible to the government for the duties of the import and export. How far do those people possess a monopoly in trade ? — I meant,, with submission, to reply to the question, by shewing no import or export could take place but in the name of those licensed Co-Hong merchants. Are those merchants in the habit of granting licenses to other mer- chants ? — Some of the most needy of them I have known grant their faculty of exporting to what we term outside merchants. The outside merchants might sell me a chop of tea, and then he would apply to one of , ' the Co-Hong merchants to ship off that tea in his name. Do you mean that the Hong merchant is responsible for that outside merchant when he licenses ? — I rather think not, certainly nof; the pur~ chase is made of an outside merchant ; and should it turn out bad, I should have no redress against the Co-Hong merchant, but against the man that sold me that tea ; and in general they are of that character, that you trade with them at a considerable degree of risk. On the supposition that tea shipped at Canton in other British vessels than those legally sent from this country, could find a safe market in Eu- rope, is it your opinion that the teas themselves could be procured at Canton ? — Most certainly. •-, Is it your opinion that they could be procured at Canton in any quan- tity ? — Most certainly. Are there any other ports in China besides Canton, where teas could be procured under the circumstances described ? — I do not beiieve that there are any ports other than that of Canton, to which Europe ships would be admitted in the kingdom of China ; and I doubt, even if they were admitted, whether tea or any other articles for exportation for the Europe market could be found in. any quantity, such as to warrant a ship going- there under such an expectation. .,■ You have spoken of the admission of European ships into other ports' than Canton; on the supposition that an arrangement was made, by which British or European vessels should meet cargoes of tea brought: flora EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS.' 211 from China"; cither in the eastern Archipelago, or in any ports in the Daniel Beale, eastern seas, are you of opinion that teas could be procured for this pur- E;q. pose from those other ports? — I have no sort of doubt that, upon an ' < ' arrangement, teas might be exported from Batavia, for instance, which could be procured from other ports than Canton, and I found my opinion upon this circumstance: There are, I am told, from very good information, five China junks of considerable burthen, that now annually leave the port of Amoy, with at least 5000Chine.se that emigrate to Batavia; those junks, exclusive of the Chinese that they convey, carry also China commodities of every kind. Among other articles, tea in small boxes,' not adapted for the European market in the present state of it ; but no doubt, by a co-operation, tea might soon be had in all respects adapted- to the European market. In your opinion, could teas be conveyed through the same channels to Manilla, Penang, or other stations in the eastern seas ? — In the present state, teas in very large quantities might be exported in the country ships trading from the Company's settlements to China, and landed at Penang, Malacca, Bombay, or wherever those ships are bound to, or at any inter-' mediate port in the voyage. From your knowledge respecting the export trade of Canton, can you state whether the government gain large duties on the articles exported ? -*— Doubtless very large, almost every article exported from Canton is by weight, and a duty is levied accordingly by the pecul. Supposing cargoes of tea could be illicitly shipped on board of British or other European traders, among the Eastern Islands in general, do you apprehend that such teas could be procured at any Chinese port, and conveyed to the stations so arranged I — By Chinese junks, undoubtedly, by an arrangement. Do you know whether Chinese junks are not in the habit of resorting from Canton, or other Chinese ports, to other points than Batavia ? — To Cochin China also. Could teas be procured at Macao by British or other European traders? — No ; the teas procured at Macao must be first exported from Canton and sent to Macao, in my opinion. Could such teas in fact be procured at Macao for re-exportation ? — In 2 E 2 the v~ %\% MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE D.'iniel Beak, the present state of Macao, certainly not ; but any qaantity of teas might Esq. be procured at Canton, and shipped from Canton to Macao, f Do you mean to say, that such tea being conveyed from Canton to Macao, there are any preventives to a re-exportation of that tea in Euro- pean vessels ? — I meant to say, that Macao can only be proceeded to by Portuguese and Spanish ships, therefore I consider others as excluded. Supposing there were British traders at the eastern, seas prepared to ship- teas for the purpose of illicitly importing them into this country, could not teas be procured at Macao, and brought out in any vessels whatsoever? — They might be brought out by Spanish or Portuguese vessels, doubtless ; but by any vessels whatever, certainly not. You are aware, that coasting vessels from India have access to the port of Canton ? — Certainly. Do you conceive that owners, or commanders, of such vessels might procure teas at Canton, with, a view of exporting them to Europe? — . There can be no doubt that teas might, as I before stated, be exported in any quantities on board ships; but for such a purpose as that, I do con- ceive a previous co-operation must take place. Do you mean a previous co-operation between the persons immediately employed in the exportation from China and other persons, either stationed in India, or at home ? — I mean only this, that no person in the state of the trade in which I knew it, were likely to export teas for the purpose you have described, as there would be no purchasers. Supposingthenanyarrangements tobemadeby which such teas could find a purchaser, would the exportation of them in such vessels be practicable? ■ — Doubtless there is not any thing to prevent a country ship from taking any quantity of teas on board according to the present existing regu- lations. Supposing that by any arrangement, British traders could ship teas at Goa, do you conceive that there is any preventive to the exportation of teas from China to Goa r — None, because Goa would be in the way or a ship returning to Bombay, and she might deposit any cargo she had at Goa. You have stated, generallv, that on the supposition of an arrangement by EAST-INDTA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 213 by which teas could be illicitly disposed of, they could, in point of fact, be Daniel Iieak t procured from the coast of China ? — From the ports of Canton and Amoy Esq. on Chinese junks, as there were Chine-e junks tiading to Batavia; and I *— y —*• also stated Chinese junks to C ichin China. I do not mean to say that a Chinese junk can be sent from Canton to Bombay. I believe they never go beyond the straits of Malacca ? : — I believe not;. and I have always understood they are not allowed by the government to. trade from Canton to Bitavia. Might not an exportation of other China produce than tea take place under the same circumstances ? — I have no doubt but every article the produce of China might be exported to Batavia and Cochin-China in Chinese junks; and also by country ships, under the circumstances before alluded to. Do you conceive that the duties imposed by the British government on teas must generally act as an encouragement to the illicit importation of the article from China to this country ? — No doubt, a duty of i)5 per cent. h now imposed upon the sale price at the East-India Company's sales, and that must be a great encouragement, when there comes a peace to smug- gling, supposing those duties remain. The French, Danes, and Swedes imported large quantities of teas from Canton, many of which were understood to be for the purpose of smuggling; and I should suppose Dunkirk would, as before, become a depot for teas. Is ft within your knowledge, that the quality of the teas purchased by the Company at Canton is, generally speaking, the best ? — Every care is taken, on the part of the Company to procure the best teas. They have v for that purpose, in addition to the knowledge of their resident supercargo, a tea inspector, that is, a gentleman that has been accustomed to the tea trade-in this country, who is resident at Canton, in the Company's service. It is more particularly the department, I believe, of this tea inspector, to class the teas ; and his inspection is a considerable check upon the Chinese to prevent fraud and adulteration in the package. Is not the goodness of the teas purchased by the Company in a great measure secured by the implicit faith which the native merchants reco a in their honour r — I conceive that the goodness of the teas is complet^'y secured by the rigid inspection that the teas undergo. Are not the native merchants from their confidence in the general good faith and commercial, credit of the Company, careful to supply them with aiucLa f ! 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE DatR i Bcalc, articles of the best quality ? — There is no doubt but there are teas of various JLsq. qualities; the Company give the best prices tor teas of the best qualities, Wrr-^y ' and invariably have the refusal of a!I the teas that come to Canton, by which they have an opportunity of selecting those of the best qualities. I should say, that in addition to the good faith they repose in some of the merchants for supplying them with good teas, that they have also the knowledge of their own tea inspectors in aid of it. Have not the credit and good faith of the Company induced the Chinese government to cultivate a commerce with this countrv ? — The credit and the good faith of the Company, I should say, have operated in this way, that the Chinese will receive the Company's imports, and will pass them without any material inspection. Supposing that teas were shipped from Canton, in any of the ways before described, for illicit importation into this country, is it likely that those articles would be as good in quality as the' teas now imported into this country ? — Most certainly not ; because the Company have a check in the knowledge of their own resident supercargoes, and of their tea inspector, whom I have mentioned before. Are not teas of the worst description easily procurable at Canton ? — I have betore stated, that the Company have the opportunity of selecting all the prime teas that are brought to Canton^ or course what remains must be of an inferior quality. Is there not a regular communication, by Spanish vessels, between the port of Amoy and Manilla? — I understand a Spanish ship every year goes from Manilla to Amoy. Is there a regular communication maintained by Spanish or Portuguese vessels between Macao and Canton on the one hand, and Manilla on the . other? — Spanish ships come from Manilla to Macao, and I believe also that Portuguese ships go from Manilla to Macao, and return. Is there not a regular export of Chinese product from Macao to Ma- nilla ? — Yes. Do teas, or silks, or nankeens form any part of that export ? — I should say silks and nankeens more generally than teas. ( Examined EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 21'5 (Examined by the Committee.) In an early part of your evidence you mentioned, that if yon had a Daniel Beak, concern with the outside merchants, the Hong merchants would not be Esq. responsible ; is the Hong merchant responsible to the Chinese govern- v — — -y-— — J ment for any act done in his name by the outside merchant ? — The Hong merchant is merely responsible to the Chinese government for the duty on the teas exported. Therefore, if any tea was smuggled out by an outside merchant, under the name ot a Hong merchant, the Hong merchant would be responsi- ble ? — I do not understand the question. I put it, that if I purchase teas of an outside merchant, that man must apply to the Hong merchant t© ship or export those teas in his name ; the Hong merchant has nothing more to do with it. Are you acquainted with the value of the cargoes of ships filled with teas, and sent from the port of China ; can you form any estimate of it ? — I cannot now, without having laid before me the particulars of the contents of that cargo, and that cargo would vary according to the greater or less quantity ot silks or nankeens of which it would be composed. You have no notion of what they consider the value of the cargoes of their ships? — I have no immediate recollection, and I would not give an answer which would have any tendency to mislead. Even cargo coming from Cnina has a regular invoice, which forms part of the Company's documents. Supposing the confiscation of a ship of 350 tons registered admeasure- ment, with her cargo, to be the consequence of any tea .being found on board, would not such a risk be greater in proportion than any prospect of advantage from such smuggling adventure ? — I should say yes ; the Yalue of such a ship and cargo would be greater than any prospect of ad- vantage. You were understood to say, in a former part of your examination, that the whole of the concerns of the India Company at Canton were carried on under the direction and government. of the supercargoes there; do you know, of your own knowledge, how those supercargoes are paid ? — Yes,, by commission. What is the. amount of that commission ? — That I cannot state. Do 2l6 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Beale, Do you know, of your own knowledge, of very large fortunes indeed Esq. being usually made by the supercargoes in the regular mode of their con- v -y >■ ducting that business? — I have heard it stated; I do not know it of my own knowledge. Can you form any belief upon the subject ? — I believe that the com- mission of the chief supercargo at Canton amounts to the sum of 7 or .£8,000 annually. Do you not conceive then that private traders could carry on that trade without allowing so high a commission to the persons employed therein ? — I must statethat it would take a series of fifteen vears, I believe, before a gentleman, going out as a writer in the Company's service, can arrive to the situation of chief supercargo; during which time he grows up from youth to manhood in knowledge, and in acquiring the confidence of the Chinese. I am certain that no number of merchants can carry on such an extensive trade as is carried on by the East-India Companv, as the Company's concerns are now generally managed at Canton. I illustrate my position in this way: the Company's imports of tea last year were made upon 19 ships ; I assume that those 19 ships were each of them the burthen of l,2O0 tons. The export of tea from Canton by the Americans was 25 ships; and I assume that those 25 ships were about the burthen of 300 tons each ; it shews me that four fifths of the whole tea exported from Canton was made by the East-India Company. Now, had that export of tea been made by the Americans, or by any other people carrying on trad* upon the same principles as the Americans do, in ships of 300 tons, there would have been no less than 76 ships to do that which 19 effect. The cargoes of the 19 ships were purchased by one individual set of men, but had they been divided into 76, there would have been 76 supercargoes and 76 captains, and so in proportion ; and from them I infer that it is* done cheaper by the East-India Company. Do you know whether the teas exported by the Americans from Can- ton are generally equal in quality to those exported by the East India Company ? — I should say not; certainly not; the Company having an op- portunity of selecting the best teas in the first instance. The Witness is directed to withdraw. It being then proposed to adjourn this Committee till to-morrow; The same is agreed to, and ordered accordingly. E/ST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 217 Die Mercurii, 14° AprUis 1813. The Earl of Buckinghamshire in the Chair. Order of adjournment read. The Counsel are called in. The proceedings of this Committee yesterday are read. Then CHARLES CARTWRIGHT, Esq. is called in; and, having been sworn, is examined as fol.ows : (By Counsel.) Are you the accountant-general to the East-India Com- C. Carttvriglit, pany? — I am. Esq. And have been so for some time ? — Many years. Will you state to the Committee what are the annual pecuniary obliga- tions of the East-India Company? — That is a very broad question ; it is almost impossible for me to answer it. If you mean to ask me what I imagine is the probable amount that the Company will require in England as a remittance from India, I will siate that. Will you state that amount ? — In the first place, much will depend upon the quantum of the Company's exports. If the exports should be interfered with by the private traders, of course the Company must re- duce their exports. The Company have hitherto exported to about the amount of a million nine hundred thousand pounds a-year, or some such thing; it is probable they will not now export more than a million and a half, or perhaps less than that ; but whatever they export must come back; the bills of exchange drawn on them will be uncertain. The interest upon the Indian debt is remittable to England ; what the annua! amount of that may be I cannot state ; but circumstances may arise that may require the whole, and adding to it the remittance allowed to the commanders and officers of their trading ships, the amount may be one million five hundred and eighty thousand pounds a-year. There will be 2 F the -y~ 218 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartzoright, the pay to the military officers, here in England, two hundred thousand Esq. pounds a-year, the passage of the military to India has amounted to < Y— — > jCl50,000 a years for some years the political charges general in Eng- land amounted to .£230,000; the pay office general, on account of re- cruiting, is estimated at .£300,000 a-year: whether it has been quite so large a sum as that, I cannot take upon myself to say, but it is now estimated to amount to that ; in future, the interest upon the Carnatic debts may amount to ,£l36 : O0O a-year ; it has not amounted yet to that sum, but probably, as soon as the commissioners have liquidated the whole of them, they may amount to that ; the interest on the sinking fund, on the loan of £.2, 500,000, which requires an annua! sum of .£242,820 for the interest upon the debt and for the redemption fund ; those several items amount to ,£4,338,820. Will you state what are the means the Company have to discharge those obligations? — The means certainly must be the surplus tunds of the Company in India, the sale of the outward cargoes in the surplus funds, of course I reckon the sum that India saves to herself by trans- mitting the interest on the debt to England, the profits on those returns, and I am not aware of any other source. You include the China trade ? — Yes. Do not you include any surplus revenue ? — Of course. If any great defalcation of the Company's trade should take place, either by the illicit importation of China goods, or by a diversion in the trade of piece goods to the outward ports or illicit trade therein, what do you imagine would be the consequence to the Company ? — A falling off of the Company's trade, and even supposing no alteration should take place in the trade, I question whether it would be possible for them to invest the sum of ,£4,338,000, so as to remit it profitably to this country ; it has not been so in my time; for I believe, since I have been in the Company's service, they never have sold four millions cost in the year ; indeed in the last nineteen years the total cost of the goods imported amounts only to fifty-five millions, which is a little short of about three millions a-year. Have you been enabled, from your knowledge of the India trade, to form any opinion as to the consequence of transferring the piece-goods trade to the outports for exportation ? — There are gentlemen here that can answer the question better than me, but I conceive it will be very detrimental in every yiew of the case. Will EAST-INDIA COMPANTS AFFAIRS. 21 9 Will you state the manner in which you conceive it will be detri- C. Cartzvrigh', mental? — In this view; inasmuch as dividing the places of sale, I con- Esq. ceive, will reduce very much the price of the article, because we know when there is only one article to be sold in one place, that all the parties who want that article must resort to that spot ; and where the thing is sold by public auction, as is the case with the Company's sales in London, the goods sell much' higher than they could, I conceive, by any other mode of sale. Do you think that it would disturb the regularity of the Company's sales ? — There is no question but it would, certainly ; and, I conceive, you cannot extend the consumption of piece-goods at all ; and therefore all that goes to the outports, and are sold there, must reduce the Company's sales here. I think there can be no doubt about that. Do you think that the regularity of the demand of the sale of the Company will be more affected in the time of peace than in the time of war ? — I should conceive they would be most affected in a time of peace, because we should have a larger demand for the goods than latterly has been, because the disturbed state of Europe, in consequence of the war, has prevented the Company from selling hardly any goods of the descrip- tion ; except this last year, we have not sold a third part of our usual quantity. Have you, as the accountant general of the Company, examined the account of the profit and loss of the Company upon the India and China trade the last nineteen years ? — I have it in my hand, it is signed by me, and of course it was made out by me, and I believe it to be correct, as far as my judgment goes. Will you state to the Committee the profit or loss upon those trades separately during that time ? — The profit upon the India trade I make to be £2,192,261 ; upon the China trade ,£18,527,110. The profit so assumed, it is necessary I should inform the Committee, is without reck- oning interest upon the capital employed in it, but interest is deducted from the whole at the foot of the account ; it is necessary that I should inform your Lordships that there is an item in this account, which is the losses at sea. It is proper to observe, that the losses upon the India trade, in this whole period of nineteen years, appear to be £b. \2s. id. per cent, upon the cost of the investment; upon the China trade it is only .£1. 16s. 2d. per cent.; now the difference is £3. 15s. lid. percent. It is also proper I should state why it ought not to form an item in this ac- count : if you are to look on it as an account of profit and loss, and to be 2 F 2 governed 220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carftor!g/tt, governed by it upon future occasions, I conceive that the additional loss I£sq. upon the India trade is in consequence of political use of the ships; they — » are diverted from their regular course, which has been the cause of their returning to Europe out of season and at extra risk. Now supposing that you take that £:S \bs. ]\d. percent, away from this charge, and taking five per cent, upon the India trade, which amounts to £ 1,2 5 6, 000, there will be a charge of ^£"302,000 to be deducted from this profit of £2, 196,267 ; but as there is an item deducted from the India trade, the loss on law tonnage, which ought not to become a charge upon the trade of India, there will, instead of a deduction, be an addition to be made to this profit of £2, 192,000 of ,£137,000 ; therefore supposing that the cost of the Indian imports shall be -charged with the interest upon the cost, there still would be, upon this assumption that I have stated, a profit of upwards of O £'2,300,000. Do you know that it ha& been stated that the Company are' losers upon their India trade ? — 1 have heard so. Are you confident that that account is erroneous, and that the account you have last stated is correct ? — I believe it is. (By a Lord.) When you say you believe, it is, is it supposing that statement admitted which you have now made ? — Yes, it is, and I believe the statement to be correct. ■The witness delivers in the account. referred to, which is read, and is as follows : [See Account annexed.] The witness is directed to withdraw. Then [Referred to In page 220.] ESTIMATEdistinguishing India and China, and specifying the Invoice Price, Customs, Freight, the Exchanges of 2*. the Current Rupee, 8s. the Pagoda, 2*. 3d. the Bombay Rupee, \ r 793-4 - J G II A N D T O T \ L. ffii on t w ard ade, £ 3 *553 Prime Cost of Investment or Goods. Customs. . Freight. Charges nf Merehandiw calculated .it '>l. per ( enr 1 tin the Sale Amount. Total Cnst and Charges. Ainouni Sale of Goods. rmnt on tire Trade. Profit on Oilman! Trade. £ 2,556,841 £ 626,07c £ 707,591 £ £ 242,986 4,133,496 £ 4,859,74: £ 726,24; £ 116,858 '794-5 - 0,645 2,883,552 598,3c/ 663,019 273,643 4,418,61c 5'47 2 >944 ■ ',°54,334 98,379 1 79S -6 - 9,025 3)229,59*; 77°>37' 1,053,701 325,800 5,3 79,47' 6,515,900 1,136,429 3 5*73-', 1796-7 - ■*975 2 ,994. '44 876,545 ',°77,743 303>i94 5,251,626 6,063,91c 812, 284 49*539 1797-8 - 9,911 2,3 r8, 007 403,03 1 1,024,05; 233,768 3,978,863 4,675»358 696,495 110,442 [798-9 - ?,4i6 3,620,871 ',198,603 ', 54i, 307 415*783 6,776,564 8,515*673 M39, I °9 129,529 1799-1800- 8,138 3,196,258 43-6, 75 ' 1,437,680 367 3 9S3 5,738,672 7,359» 6 76 1,621,004 55.86; i8oc-i '5, So 7 5,797,239 209,151 ',534,897 379*759 5,921,036 7>595>' s ' i,674*M5 40,603 1S01-2 ! ©,0151 3,094,271 150,365 I ,'75,43c 33', 3M 4,75'>3 8 ° 6,626,347 1,874,967 29,326 1802-3 p, 1 2 1 =.874,533 78,i59 1,219,560 302,126 4,474,378 6,069,636 1,595,258 '3.343 1803-4 5>9°>j 2 ,959,654 77,445 1,281,488 2 93,303 4,611,890 5,S66,o 73 1,254,183 '5,452 1804-5 ' 4.755 2,647,686 76,230 990,075 263,026 3,977=0!; 5,260,521 1,283,504 20,769 1805-6 - j,o«7 3,042,085 78,595 ^176,581 299,657 4,596,918 5»995>598j i,398,6So 33*SSi 1806-7 1,697 2,663,962 54,955 1,102,755 259,056 4,080,72s 5,181, S20 ',100,392 32*567 1807-8 5,4/2 2,57WS9 37:437 1,263,554 2 57,S 4 S 4,'34,42S 5.156,97' 1,022,543 112,415 1808-9 ^ s 95 2 *735>74o 65,140 1,164,692 287,301 4,252,873 5,746,021 1,493,148 109,259 1809-10 ),'93 2,727,375 82,228 1,196,145 298,862 4,304.,j5io 5*-977>2-8o .1 ,.672,670 177,46/ 1 8 1 0- n [,i 10 2,528,344 59,918 1,262,391 298,14s 4*'4' 8 ,7v' 5,962,860 1,814,064 217,885 lSlI-12 - £2 : >4°5 2,680,406 73,019 1,152,962 291,077 4,197,464 5,821,546 1,624,082 "7,673 ),9'9 55,426,150 -,952,4152 2,025,628 : ,724,629 5 '9,128,822 1 14,522,36c 1 5,393*538 ' ,506,981 Turn o»*fc [Referred fo In page 220.] ESTIMATE of the PROFIT or LOSS upon all Goods sold by the East-India Company, from the Year l"93-4 to the Year 1811-12 inclusive ; distinguishing India and China, and specifying the Invoice Price, Customs, Freight, and Charges respectively ; also the Sale Amount and the Amount of Profit on Outward Trade, and calculating the Invoice Price at the Exchanges of 2*. the Current Rupee, 8s. the Pa«oda, 2s. 3 on BaA, 1,210,1 of" £ 5 8 4.79= £ 289,56, £ ■>7.=5? £ 2,21 r,j.il £ «,345.'5 I £ '33.433 £ 54.505 £ '.336,739 ' £ 41,284 £ 4iS,028 £ i=i.;2i £ £ 1,921,780 2,519,50 £ ,.'-■■' £ 62.5 53 £ =.SS 6 ,!45 £ 626,07^ £ 7°7.S9' £ £ 242,966, 4,133,49* 4 +.«59.745 £ 7=6,34! £ 116,858 '794-5 - 1,288,05. 57'.°74 290,673 ■3=i57' 2,280,37 2,61 1,522 S3'. '45 27.734 '.595.493 27,32": 372,346 143.07: 2.138,233 2,86l,42 7 = 3.'). 70,645 2.883,553 S9*.39' 663,019 = 73,643 4,418,6, C 5. 4?=. 9 44 '^54,334 »8.379 i ; 9i -6 - 1,821,512 744,i6t| 581,214 ■77,'6i 3,5=4.45' 3,543,236 *' 8,777 54i«6 i,4oS,o8; 25,802 47=.487 i48;6j( 2,055,012 2,972,664 9I;,65- I:.;,":! 3.229,599 770,37 '.«53,7o 325,800 5,379,47 6,5.5,900 1,136,420. = 5-73' 1796-7 - 1,708,37 856,204 556,669 ■69.777 5,291,021 3.39>.S 6 4 104, ;35 5'.j' j '.285,765 20,341 521,074 '33.4' '■960,597 2,668,346 ;°r.7ii t'.975 =.994. '44 8AS4. '.o;7.743 303,194 5,2 S I,62t 6,063,910 49.539 .797-8 . 1,025,204 5S4-44= 4==.644 104,873 '.937,'6 2,097,468 160,305 100,531 i,2!«.8oS . 'S.C&) 601,413 128,89 2,041,700 2.577,89 536,19c 9.9'- 2,318,007 403,03 1,024,05; 233,768 3,97 8 .863 4.675,358 696,495 110.442 1798-9 - 2,0.9,16 1.154.876 777,9=3 233,169 4,185,21. 4.663,390 475.17- 121,073 1,601,606 43,72; ?"3.4°4 182,61. 2,591,351 1,652,28 1,060,91: »,«» 8,620,871 1,198,603 '.54', 30; 4'5.-S3 6,77<>,»°4 8.515*673 1,53.1,109 129,529 1799-18C0- 1,605,689 *-»,-•• 651.173 '78.234 2,924,408 3,564,694 640,286 47.-21 1,830,569 7.439 786,507 189,741 2,814,264 3,794,9 s 980,718 8,138 3,196,258 43*,75' 1,437,680 367,983 5.738,672 ;»3J9» 6 ? 6 1,621,00! SS.863 t8oc-i *)Oi3»975 201,817 S57.423 '98,940 3,232,155 3,978,800 726,645 416,410 ',783,854 7.334 697.474 iSo.Si. 2,668,881 3,616,38 947,sce l;,So- 3,797,239 209,15 '.534,897 379.759 5,921,036 7,595,181 ',674.145 40,60; i8oi-a - [,425,168 140,4:1: 45'.9=° '54-344 2,171,834 ,3,086,943 915,109 39.34' 1,669,101 9.963 723.5" '76,97c 2 .S79.546 3-339,40 959,858 tio.oij 3,094,271 150,365 '.'75.43: 53',3'4 4,75',38o 6,626,347 1,874.967 29,326 .802-3 - >,«33.s-° 71,337 499,900 114,463 1,819,226 2,3 16,5,84 497,158 23.4'', 1,741,007 6,822 719,66, '87,66, 2,655,152 3,753,25 1,098,10c t'0,'2' 2,874.533 78,159 1,219,560 302,126 4,474.37" 6,069,636 I,59SVS» '3.343 1803.4 " 1,187,707 71,460 549.376 111,820 1,920,36; 2,236,396 316,035 + '.4''. '.7/'.947 !.9»5 732,112 181,48 2,691,52; ;,'.2o,6; 058,150 + = S.96; =.9S9. 6 S4 77,445 1,281,488 S93.303 4,61 1,890 5,866,07 1, 1,254,183 '5.452 1804-5 " 1,088,400 68,268 371.35S 97.651 1,625,674 1,953,026 327,35" 16,014 'tJ59.2S6 7,962 6iS,72c '6i,37 S,3Si,j43 3.307,49 956,152 4S755 i,«47,6S6 76,230 990,075 263,026 3,977.oi; 5,260,5a! 1,283,504 =0,769 l8o;-6 - 1S0C-7 1,335,860 986,310 70,966 47,47' 53=.023 443,25 s 1 12,622 73,6o4 2,051,471 '.550.643 2,254,899 1,472,074 203,428 t78,569 55,888 35.26. 1,706,22 5 1,677,652 7.62, 7,48, 64.4.55'' 659.49; ;S7,03, 185,452 .=.545.447 2,530,085 3.740,691 3,709,041" 1,195,252 1,178,961 tVI,»B« 3,043,08; 78,595 54,955 1,1 76,5s. 1,102,755 299,657 259,056 4. 596,9 '8 4,080,72s 5>995»S9 8 5,181,820 1,398,680 1,100,392 33.88. 32,567 t:,69i 2,663,962 1807-8 - 180S-9 887,119 1,013,740 36,0+S S7,i»9 542,11; 418,07c 65,510 87,887 '.Si 0,794 1,576,886 1,310,215 '.757.754 t220,579 180,868 71.94.1 39.36, 1,61,6,470 1,722,000 1,389 7.95 721.43; 746,622 IWtriM- 199,414 2,603 ,t>} 4 2/175.' S; 3.8,A7}<. 1,243,123 40,4;: 6 >,573.>S9 3,735.74c 37,437 65,140 '.=63,554 1,164,692 257,848 287,501 4.t;i„:'o 4,25=,87J 5-IS6.97' 5,746,02 1 1,022,543 1,493,148 112,415 109,2 59 3.9SS, :6; 1,312,280 1809-10 1,240,31 ; 63.7=7 5=8,977 I '2, 70S i.9=S>72; 2,254,164 328,43; 78,27. 1,487,060 18,501 68.7,166 iS6,ij4 ac.7S.S83 3,723,116 ',344,233 99.'93 =.7=7.375 83,338 1,196,145 298,862 4,3,04^10 5.07 7. i8c .1,672,670 ';7.4''; 1810-11 963,4:9 !*.633 411.230 97l383 1,528,875 '.947.6S3 418,778 86,;; ',564,915 3,08; 851,161 2co,;6o 2,619,921 4,015,20; 1,395,286 131,110 =.5=8.344 59,9.8 1,262,391 298,141 4,148,7911 5,962,860 1,814,064 217,885 1811-11 . - 1,1 10 907 64,916 3S9.5'5 106,063 1,641,401 2,121,261 479,860 •65,26! ',569.497 8,10 793.41'! 1 55.014 2,556,063 3,7no,2S: ','44.2=2 S=.405 2,630,406 73,019 1,152,962 291.077 (,'97.464 5,821,546 1,624,082 "7,673 15,134,67a 5,675,703 9,195,001 2.444,04042,749,416 48,910,594 5,l6l,l ;S[i,o57,o6. ■,0,291,478 =76,71: .2,530,627 1,280.58,, 46,379,406 55,611,766 19,232,36c 449,919 55,426,15c v95=4'S 22,025,621 5,737,629 S9, 1:8,622 H4,5«a,3fie 5,393.538 ,$06,981 t Tlie Flairs 1;. ■..:, .! ilius \ denote tlie Amouni of Lo»on the Trade. * Bergal Buuks not received. f m INDIA TRADE. tior.L on Sales brought down ...... Do. Outward Trade Do. - - - . . Profit on Stores consigned to India, and issued from Ihe several Depart- 1 meott At the Invoice Cost, which is 10 per Cent, above Uie Prime Cost -J Deduct Payments made in India and in England, oa account or the India Trade, viz. Commercial Charges in India, not added lo the Invoice* Loss upon the Law Tonnage » Losses at Sea, upwardi of 5} per Cent. ... Half the Profit on Spices allowed Government in the Settlement) of Account-; ..... f 3.251,502 4j9,o6; »4°9. '95 423'395 Profit, afier deducting Payments in India ar.d i attach exclusively to the Indian Trade - 6,161,178 1,057,062 C II I N K T R A D E. Profit on Sales brought down » Do. on Outward Trade Do. Do. on Consignments of Merchandize from India Deduct Payments made on account of the China Trade, viz. Difference between the Rate ot Exchange at which Bills have been drawn on the Company, and the Rate used in the Calcu- lation of Profit Losses at Sea, upwards of 1 J pec Cent, - ,009,308 19,232,360 449.9 « 9 4o;,020 ,558,189 England, which are presumed to ? , , Profit, after deducting Payments made, which are presumed to attach exclusively to| /, „ *j ' * ' ' the ChinaTrade ■ - - • - - - - 'I \ o I Total Profit &^>iwn Total Net Profit, India and China, brought down ....... Add Profits, of which no Separation can be made, whether applicable to the India or Cltina Account, viz. Charges and Profits on Private Trade ....... Interest on the Annuities - - - - - - .'. Deduct Commercial Payments in England, of which no Separation can be made, viz. Surplus Commercial Charges general, beyond the Rate per Cent, deducted in the Calculation of \ Profit on the Sales _..._._../ Freight Outward, and Remuneration to Commanders of worn-out Ships ■ Advances of Freight to Owners of lost Ships - - - ... Dividends on Stock and Interest on Bonds ....... ► The whole of the Commercial Charges fn India, not added to the Invoices, are included in this Account, but s Reservation ii claimed is to such Part of these Charges as may be supposed to attach to the several Boards of Trade in the Management of the Salt, Op.uro, and other Branches of a Territorial Nature. s. 769,3 I 5 701,682 1.544.399 800,373 659,910 1 4,396,2-8 7 JO,7i9.377 7,900,969 Ultimate Surplus Profit, 1793-4101811-12. rf6.a89.40* Accountant's Office, East-India House, the 23d February 1813. (Errors excepted.) CHA' CARTW'RIGHT, Accountant General. k n Profit on Sal< Do. Oul Pro&t on Sto merits at tl Ded £ Commercial Loss upon 11308 Losses at Se88i Half the Pro of Aecoui £ 19,232,360 449,919 405,020 20,085,299 1,558,189 delusively to \ „ „ Profit, after - .] *-™>S-7,* attach ex< Total Profit >f £ . 2,769,3' 5 701,682 } 1,544.599 800,373 659,910 14,896,287 £ 2o,/i9»377 3,470,997 M> 1 9°>374 17,900,969 £io,-i<),s7} Ultimate Surplus Profit, tfty+lo i8u-ia ^6,289,405 Acco CHA' CARTWRIGHT, Accountant General. "EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 221 Then ROBERT BROWN", Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) Have you had extensive dealings in cotton piece-goods Robert Brown., from India ? — I have. Esq. v „ i Do you know what is the ad valorem duty imposed on piece-goods sold at the sales of the Company ? — They are divided into three classes, the first is the article of muslins, which pay on importation lO per cent., and £ll. 6s. Sd percent, for home consumption ; the second is the article'of calicoes, which pays «£3. bs. 8d. per cent, on importation, and £b& 6s. grf. percent, for home consumption ; the third comes undar the denomination of prohibited goods, which pays merely a duty of £3. 6s. 8d per cent. on importation, and are not allowed to be used in this country. "When goods are sent to the sales at the India House, in what manner is the value to which the duty is proportioned ascertained, is Lt by an estimate, or by the actual sale of the article r— -Invariably by the actual sale at the Company's candle. Do you conceive that it would be easy or practicable to set an accurate average value on Indian piece-goods, in any other manner than by their actual sale ? — I conceive it would be impossible to affix the value without an actual public sale ; and I ground that opinion from an experience of seven and twenty years in the examination of the goods, and an attendance at the Company's sales during that period. Will you state what are the circumstances, in your experience on the subject, which have particularly led you to form the opinion just stated ?— The circumstances are connected completely with the competition at the East India Company's sales, which induces the buyers, from an opposition to each other, to give at times a difference of 10, lb, and I have known even 40 per cent, between the prices at which the article was estimated, and the prices produced. Have you with you any patterns cut from the same lots in the Company's warehouses, which will enable you to illustrate more particularly your last answer ?— I believe I have, although I do not believe those patterns .Will go quite so much to this point as they will do on other parts ot the subject} I think that the price currents will shew that deviation even more distinctly .than the patterns I have in my possession. Will you in any manner illustrate the difference between articles appa- ■ J J - rcntly 222 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Brown, rently of the same quality r— There is in the article of mulrauls, some Esq. which were sold at the last sale of March for 1 9s. 2d. per piece, and others i ■ ' ) .gold at 90s. per piece ; there are a great variety of similar things ; there is the article of seerhaudconnaes, some that sold at 38s. 6d. per piece, and others that sold at 103^. What are the differences in price in articles of the same class ? — I believe I explained that by saying that 1 have known instances where there has been a difference of from £0 to 40 per cent, upon the same articles, and of similar quality. Besides the difference of price in articles of the same classes, have you known differences of price in articles of exactly the same quality ? — » I have, but certainly not to the extent mentioned in the former answer ; I have known differences in articles of the same value and the same qua- lity, from 10 to 15 per cent, at the same sale. In the ordinary sale of articles of the same class, do very great diffe- rences of price take place ? — In the ordinary sale I should say not ; there are cases in which in the same sale, from particular circumstances, that variation does take place, but in a general way certainly not. [The witness produces two patterns of callicoes, which are inspected.] Having produced two patterns of calicoes of the same quality, that sold at the same sale, will you state what were the prices at which they respec- tively sold ? — There is a variation of from 10 to 15 per cent, in the two articles. Is that an uncommon case, or has it frequently fallen within your expe- rience ? — Certainly not a common case ; but it is a case that occasionally happens. Have you frequently known great variations to happen, though less than that you have stated in this particular instance ? — I have known it occasionally. When ad valorem duties are imposed on goods sold elsewhere than at the sales of the Company, do you know in what manner the duties are ascer- tained ? — The principle, 1 believe, is this ; that the merchant gives in his valuation, and if approved by the collecting officer, the duty is paid on that valuation. What. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 223 What security is there agiinst the fraudulent valuation of the article by Robert Brown, the importer ? — The officer is at liberty to take those goods upon payment Esq. of the same price that they are valued at, with an addition I believe of ten * y ' per cent. Supposing it to be allowed that piece-goods should be imported into tbe out ports for exportation, do you conceive that ad valorem duties could conveniently be collected upon the article ? — I conceive they could not be collected, with justice to the revenue, in any other way than by a public sale ; and even by a public sale, at the out ports, it would be very easy for a combination to be formed so as to pay the duly upon a less price than the actual value at the sales of the Company of the same articles precisely. In your apprehension, will there be any danger that, on the supposition before made, goods taken out of the warehouse for the purpose of expor- tation will be smuggled back again for the purpose of home consumption ? — I should think a verv great danger ; and so much have the commission- ers of customs been afraid of it, that although for a short time they allowed white piece goods, to which I particularly allude, white India calicoes, to be sent from London to the out-ports for exportation, they rescinded that order about eighteen months past, and now only allow coloured goods to • be sent for exportation, which, in consequence of being prohibited, if they were smuggled out of the vessels, wereseizable wherever they could be found. White East-India calicoes being allowed to be used for home consumption, upon the payment of a certain heavy duty, would not be seizable in case they were found in the hands, of the merchant or dealer. From your general experience, can you state whether the cotton goods manufactured in this country have attained to the perfection of the India fabrics ? — In many cases I conceive that they very much surpass them. Do you mean that the fioe piece goods of India are surpassed by the British piece-goods ? — No, I do not ; certainly I mean the common and. the middling qualities. Are there any species of Indian piece-goods with which, in your ap- prehension, British cottons of apparently the same quality could not sustain' a competition ? — Is it meant by that to ask me in point ot price, or in. point of quality ? Are there any species of Indian piece-goods with which, in your ap- prehension, Bfitjish cottons of apparently the same quali y could not sustain a competition ?■ — They have certainly been very successfully imitated ; and,. 2 '2 i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Brown, as I stated before, the British goods have in some cases surpassed the' Esq. others. "Y Supposing that India piece-goods were to attain a considerable degree of home consumption, would the finer sorts of them prevail over any British fabrics of the same kind that could be brought to contend with them in the market r — If you mean the finer description of piece-goods to be imported without the payment of duty, they would certainly inter- fere very much with British goods ; but it would be with the coar er goods, if the duty was evaded, with which the interference would be by far the greatest in my opinion, in consequence of the low price at which those common piece-goods are sold at the Company's sales ; and the greater price of the same description of goods of British manufacture, at present the duty is so heavy, amounting to ,£68. 6s. Sd. per cent, tor home consump- tion, that very few, if any, sold for the home market. Supposing that India piece-goods in any great quantity were fraudulently introduced into the home consumption, do you conceive that they might interfere with the cotton fabrics of this country, in spite of the expence with which the fraudulent introduction of commodities must necessarily be attended ? — I think they would interfere very greatly, and that the savin in the point of duty would amply compensate for the expence of stmr gling them. & jr. O Can you state the difference between the price which British white calicoes from the manufacturers fetch per yard, and that at which Indian white calicoes of nearly the same dimensions and quality sold at the March sales of the Company? — From a calculation I have recently made, I find that the di fie rem e is from 30 to 60 per cent., that is to sav, that goods at the test March sale sold by the East- India Company at from 30 to 60 per cent, less than the same qualities, widths, and descriptions could be bought from the manufacturers. (Examined by the Committee.-) What is the reason that the danger of relanding piece-goods is greater from the outports than from the port of London r — -In my opinion there would be a greater facility of getting the goods exported from the outports than from the port of London. Why do you suppose so ?■ — I have known instances wherein the pro- hibited goods have been taken out of vessels in the River Mersey, goods- put on board under the principle of being exported to Africa. Do you believe no instance of that sort ever happened in the port of London r* — • EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 225 London ? — 1 never knew but of one instance of the kind, I certainly have Robert Brown, known of one. Esq. ( ^ . You stated in your evidence, that you judged of the smuggling which would take place on re-exported goods when they were exported from an out-port in consequence of a smuggling which took place on a transit of goods sent to the out-ports from London, do you consider that the same risk of smuggling existed when goods were exported from the out-ports for exportation as upon the transit of goods irom the port of London ? — I apprehend there is no risk whatever in the transit from London to the out- ports, the checks are so numerous that it becomes a matter of almost impossibility to smuggle during the transit ; the danger, I apprehend, arises in the export from the out ports. "Will you state why the same checks should not be applied to the transit from the out-ports to the ports of London, as are effectually applied to the transit from the port of London to the out-ports ? — I can see no reason whatever why the same checks should not be applied. Ycu state that you do not consider there is any risk in the transit to the out-ports, will you state why the Commissioners of the Customs stopped the permission, in your opinion ? — That will be for them to state, I can only state the tact. Do you know what proportion the home consumption of India goods bears to the export of those articles ? — I am not able to state the precise proportion, but speaking generally, I should say that the quantity sold for home consumption does not exceed one tenth of that which is exported, but I do not mean to be quite precise. In the greater variations you have stated to have existed in the same sale in March last, between goods of the same class, were the goods that bore the higher price to which you have referred, purchased for home consumption or for re-exportation r — For re-exportation. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then JAMES CAZENOVE, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : JamesCazenove, (By Counsel.) I wish to know whether you have been in the habit, in Esq. 2 G times v v » 226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE James Cazenove, times of peace, of purchasing piece-goods for continental consumption? — Esq. I have so. Can you state whether the Company ordinarily give notice of such piece- goods as they intend to put up at their sales ? — They are in the habit of doin? so about three months at least before the sale. Do they state of what description the goods are which they intend to put up to sale ? — They do. Has this practice facilitated the consumption of piece-goods on the Continent ? — No doubt it has. Will you state in what manner ?— As soon as the Company have made a declaration of the goods they propose putting up to sale, a printed decla- ration thereof is sent by the foreign merchants to their correspondents abroad, time enough for them to receive the orders of their correspon- dents, which are proportioned to the different quantities and qualities of the goods that are declared to be for sale by the Company ; and in many instances the magnitude of the sales engage foreigners to come over them- selves ; and invariably, when foreigners have come over, it has increased not only the quantity of East- India goods purchased at the sales, but British manufactured goods. Would the course of dealing which you have described be consistent with an arrangement which should permit the sale of piece-goods at the out-ports by private contract ? — I should not conceive that it can be carried on with the same advantage, either to the London merchants or with respect to the quantities of goods purchased, as in the present mode that is adoped. Would the course of dealing which you have described be consistent with an' arrangement which should permit the sale of piece-goods at the out-ports by private contract ? — I understood the question to mean, whether the same quantity would be exported or bought by the foreign merchants, were the goods to be sent to the out-ports as well as to the port of. London. Whether the Continental trade would be as well managed under that plan as under the present system, was the question ? — I should certainly think not ; because when the foreign merchant receives the declaration of the periodical sale that is to take place, he orders what he wants in conse- quence of that declaration. When he comes over himself, he has the ad- vantage EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 227 vantage of seeing the whole mass of goods to be sold under one roof; if James Cazenovc, it were spread in the out-ports, he would not, most likely, come over him- Esq. self, because he would lose a great deal of time ; and when the foreigner * nr — — ' does come over himself, it is observed that he invariably purchases more than he would have merely sent his orders. I before stated, that the magnitude of the sale engaged foreigners to come over, which would be greatly diminished, of course, in the port of London, if there were to be sales at all the out-ports ; a foreigner could not have time to spare to go and visit the out-ports to make his purchases ; it would be totally impossible. In your opinion, would the Continental consumption of piece-goods be diminished by a system which should admit the out-ports to a trade in piece- goods ? — I can hardly form an opinion upon that question. Do you conceive that the sales of piece-goods by the East-India Com- pany, would be materially affected in consequence of the circumstances which you have described ? — If the g^ods that are in the out-ports are to be exported from thence to the Continent, after having paid an ad valorem duty, (which will be very difficult to ascertain in the out-ports in an equal manner as if it was raised, or if the goods were valued in London,) i suppose that the goods in the out-ports might be exported into the foreign maiket at a lower rate than we could export them from the London market ; if that is the case, the sales in London would be affected by it. Do you mean that they would pay less duty at the out-ports, or do you mean that the ad valorem duty would be evaded ? — I mean, that they would pay less duty. In a former answer you have stated, that foreigners who have been in- duced to repair to this country in consequence of notices of the sale at the India House, have become purchasers of other British goods ; have such persons at the same time contracted their purchases of Indian goods? — That has not struck me as having been the case. ( Examined by the Committee ) What reason have you to suppose that the import into London of those piece-goods would not be sufficient to afford the foreigners an adequate selection ? — In times when the sales have been of less magnitude than they often are, foreigners have not come over ; and one may always judge that the magnitude of the snles engages the foreigner to come and j r> ^ o on o # m ■ suit himself, which he could not do was he not to be acquainted with that great variety of goods that are to be nut up for sae. 2 G 2 Are. -28 . MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JamcsCaeenovc, Are there not other reasons than merely the purchase of the India goods, I'-- ]• if meant with a view to the assortment of his purchases, that induces hm * v ' to come to London, and not go to the out-ports ? — Their first object is to come to the Company's sale, with respect to those foreigners with whom ws aie in the habits of beimr connected. If the duty on goods to be exported from London is ascertained in the same manner as at the out-ports, why should the London merchant export at a greater disadvantage than the out-port merchants? — From the very great difficulty in putting any valuation on piece-goods, in consequence of their very great variety and quality. If the duty on piece-goods to be exported from London rs ascertained in the same manner as at the out-ports, why should the London merchant export at a greater disadvantage than the out-port merchant? — If the duty can be ascertained in the out-ports in the same manner as in the port of London, I do not conceive that the London merchants will be under any disadvantage. I conceive that if the declaration of one merchant is as fair as another, there would be no disadvantage for the London merchant. You have stated that foreign merchants preferred the port of London ? — I believe they have no other choice. If foreign merchants do prefer coming to the port of London for their India purchases, would not an adequate proportion of the import trade connected with the out-ports be returned to the port of London in piefer- ence, to meet that demand ? — I conceive it to be a natural consequence of not being able to sell in one place to bring it to another where it can be sold. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then WILLIAM ROE, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : ttuham Hoe, fBjj Counsel). — I believe you are Chairman of the Board of Customs ? — Esq. I am one of the Chairmen. ) Have you in obedience to the commands of the Lords of his Majesty's Treasury, had occasion to consider the proposed measure of opening to the out-ports of this kingdom an import trade to India, with reference to the effect it might have on his Majesty's revenue r — I have in common with the "V" EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 229 the rest of the Commissioners of his Majesty's Customs hid vaiiaus refer- lVillinm Hoe, ences upon the subject, and after clue inquiry and deliberation, and ob- Esq. taining all the information we could from the most competent officers, we have made two reports thereon to the Lords of the Treasury, which are now blended in one. Have you the means of knowing that in spite of all the precautions which are now taken, and the India trade being confined to the port of London, that the smuggling of teas and India good-, has taken place during the last five vears to a considerable degree ? — From the returns of our officers, and the accounts we, have had prepared, it does not appear that smuggling has taken place to the tame extent, which accounts are annexed to the rep ,rt_ Have you had the means of knowing, through the same channel, that large seizures of such goods have been made, both in the port ot London and at the out ports, during the period last mentioned ? — Seizures have been made at both, and they are specified for the respective years in the account which is annexed to that report. In the event of the import trade from India and the Eastern Islands being opened to the out-ports of this kingdom, are you of opinion the danger of smuggling would thereby be greatly increased ? — 1 apprehend that the danger of smuggling would be increased. Do you apprehend it would be increased in any considerable degree by such an event ? — I am not prepared to say to what degree, but allude to the answer to the former question. Supposing the same event of the opening of the import trade before mentioned to the out-ports, would such danger of smuggling be consider- ably increased whenever peace is restored ? — 1 apprehend the danger would be somewhat increased. Would it not be increased, in the event of peace, by the ships arriving singly and at uncertain times r — It appears to me it would. Would it not be increased, in the event of peace, by the reduction of the number of vessels employed by the Admiralty ? — It might be somewhat increased, I apprehend, from that cause. Would it not be likewise increased, in the event of peace, by there being no convoys, and the ships being delayed for the purpose of smuggling ; I mean the' ships to the out-ports ? — I apprehend it would. Illi 250 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William lice, In your opinion, have the most effectual means for preventing smug- Esq. g'ing heen already taken under the advice and authority of the Board of *■» ■■■ -y- — —> Customs? — Various'means have been taken, and some special ones recently; but it is the constant habit and practice of that Board, from time to time, to resort to such measures as they find fit, for the suppression of smuggling. In your opinion, derived from your experience, to what registered tonnage would it be most advisable to restrict ships trading to India and the Eastern Islands for the prevention of smuggling ? — Considering that such vessels would have more, means of smugsflincr from draught of water and other causes, I think it would be proper to restrict it to four or 500 tons; i mean burthen, and not register tonnage. Do you think that the duty upon those articles imported from India or China, which are at present ascertained according to the value or sale price, can be collected at any out-port without incurring the hazard of a great defalcation of the revenue? — It would be difficult, as it appears to me, to adopt any mode equally beneficial with the one adopted at present. Is the Committee to understand, by your last answer, t'-at in your ©pinion the open and public manner in which such goods are at present exposed to sale by the East-India Company afford the revenue a much greater degree of security than can be obtained at any out-port? — It appears to me the best mode for securing to the revenue the highest duty upon the article. Does the present mode appear to you the best calculated for preventing combinations among the buyers ? — It appears to me to have a tendency to that effect. Does it appear to you that the present is the best mode of encouraging purchasers from the Continent, by the quantity and value of the goods that are sold at the East-India Company's sales ?— As far as I am enabled to judge, it does appear to me so. Does it appear to you that very great security is likewise afforded by the account of the prices being kept both by the officers of the Custom's and of the Excise, and the Company, at those sales ? — I apprehend that security is afforded by such accounts'; but I see no reason why that same correctness s EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 23 i correctness might not be afforded by any other mode of account, or by the William Roe, same system, if adopted. E$q. \ ^ > Are you of opinion that it would be highly dangerous to the revenue to charge the ad valorem duty upon such goods to a rated duty ? — I believe it would be very difficult to find any means of a rated duty which would answer the equal end of an ^d valorem duty, touching certain articles. Would it, in your opinion, be prejudicial to the revenue and to trade to form an aveiage rate of duty upon such goods, by taking the average value of their sale prices at different periods ? — It would, I apprehend, be injurious and difficult to find any mode of so doing. Can you state the grear variety impract you state in what way that injury and difficulty would arise? — From ar variety of the articles, the great diversity in the price, and the icability, or at least difficulty, in forming an average which would not lower the duty to injure the revenue on the higher article, and to load the lower one with the duty which it could not sustain. Would not the consequences which you have just stated, in your opinion, tend to the reduction of the importation ? — To the reduction of the importation of a lower article I conceive it would; it would favour the higher. Are you of opinion that every effectual provision which the Board of Customs could devise has been already made for the protection of the duties upon tea, and for the protection of the Company's exclusive trade in. that article? — I am not aware immediately that any further measure could be adopted. Supposing the amount of the trade from India and the number of the ships to be the same, would there, in your opinion, be more or less danger of smuggling, if the trade were confined to the port of London, or divided between the port of London and any of the out-ports ? — It appears to me it would rather have a tendency to be greater, if so divided. Are you of opinion, that in the event of an extension of the import trade from India to the out-ports, the danger of smuggling would increase in proportion to the increase of the trade of the out-ports, and the number of their ships employed in it ? — I am not prepared to give any definite answer to that point j it appears to me it might rather have a tendency to increase it. In ~V" 232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Hoe, In the event of the import trade from India being extended to the out- Esq. ports, are you of opinion that there would be danger to the manufactures i of this country by the illicit introduction of prohibited articles, which might supplant such manufactures? — I apprehend, as far as any increased smuffgline should take effect, that it -would have that tendency. Is there, in your opinion, any security against smuggling in ports having wet docks, not surrounded with walls, that does not apply to ports without wet docks? — I am not aware that there is. Do you know that it is the opinion of many officers of the Customs, that ports so circumstanced afford less security against smuggling ? — I beg leave to refer to what is stated in our report, and to add, that the opinions therein given were the result of special references to the dif- ferent officers of the different o :t-ports in the kingdom, and the most intelligent officers in the port of London, upon the points contained in the two sets of queries contained in the letter of the Lords of the Trea- sury, and the other references made by them. Will vou state what are the regulations and measures that have been adopted by the Commissioners of the Customs to prevent illegal practices on the arrival of the East-India fleets? — The general regulations are these: As soon as the Board have any intimation of a fleet being upon the point of arrival, directions immediately Lsue to the collector and comp- troller ot certain out-ports, and to a description of officers called the inspectors of cruizers in the service of the Customs, and to the system of land and water guard of all descriptions, to be on the look-out for the ai rival of such fleet, and to take every measure for the prevention of improper practices, either on land or water, from such fleet so arriving; that the first cutters that fall in with them are directed to take them under guard, and to attend upon them till they are relieved by some other cruizers, and in this mode they a;e guarded until they arrive at their final destination, the river Thames ; that in addition to this measure, withinthese two or three years, the Board, as soon as they have any reason to expect the arrival ot a fleet in the Channel or in the Downs, dispatch certain supe- rior officers from the port of London with a certain number of inferior ones, with a view, it possible, to be in readines before they arrive in the Downs to place the officers on board as a guard, in order to prevent all improper practices between their thus arriving at the Downs and their final ai rival and delivery in the East-India docks. If the import trade to India were open to the out-ports, and carried on by their EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 233 their single ships, would it be possible that the same system of watch and William Roc, guard could be applied to ships of the out-ports ? — I apprehend it would E->q. not be easy to devise and apply any similar and effectual system. *■ y -> What, in your opinion, would be the difficulties ? — The arrival of single ships in that dispersed mode which is stated, would in some measure pre- clude it, and the want at present of that system of official guard at different out-ports, would not afford the same means of applying such a system. I beg to observe, that the question being put generally as to out- ports, and the official system of establishments of the different ports being very different in extent and efficacy, unless some specific ports were named, I do not apprehend that 1 have the means of answering the ques- tion fully. In your opinion, could the system of watch and guard, which you have stated as now taking place with respect to the East-India Company's ships be applied to any out- ports that were to trade in ships arriving singly and at different periods? — If the Board were apprized of the time and arrival of such a ship at such a port, it certainly might direct means, per- haps not so effectual, for guarding her upon her arrival. Am I to understand, that you are of opinion that the practicability of taking such means would depend upon the Board knowing previously the time of the arrival of such ships? — The Board might vest in the officers of the port a discretion to exercise such measures as might be thought fit by the Board, or the delay might be fatal to the measure or plan of the Board. Are you of opinion, that if the import trade from India were opened to the out-ports, that there would be any great increased danger to the revenue from the fraudulent re-landing into the country East-India articles entered and shipped for exportation ? — That danger would, it appears to me, depend in a certain degree upon the ports to which the system was applied. Are you of opinion that there would be more or less danger of such re-landing, if the import trade of India were extended to any of the out- ports, or continued as it now is ? — I am rather inclined to think the danger would be rather greater if extended to the out-ports, than as it now stands. Are the dangers of sueh re-landing increased by the peculiar circum- 2 R stances 234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Roe, stances under which Europe has lately been ? — I am not aware of any very Esq. material increase; there are some points in which I think there is an in- v Y J creased danger. Has there not been a relaxation of provisions and regulations of a mate- rial nature, particularly in the reduced tonnage of the exportation vessels ? — The tonnage of the exportation vessels has been reduced on certain occasions under special directions, and I should apprehend the danger in vessels of small description is greater than in vessels of the legal and pre- scribed tonnage. Have not the certificates of landing goods upon the Continent, in order to clear the bonds, been dispensed with ? — I believe it has, in various in- stances, been impracticable to obtain them under the regulations prescribed by law, and they have been dispensed with. Do not the causes that have been stated in the two last questions afford additional and forcible reasons for apprehending increased danger to the revenue from opening the East-India trade to the out-ports generally or partially? — Under the reduced tonnage, which it has been thought necessary under the circumstances of Europe to allow, it might possibly have that effect ; but with respect to the other point, I see none that is ; the returning certificates might be obtained as well at the out-ports as at the port of London. In your opinion, if the import trade from India were opened to any of the out-ports, would not the danger to the revenue at each port be in pro- portion to the greater or less facility or delay in the outward navigation from that port ? — I apprehend, where there were any local impediments frequently arising to the vessels leaving the port, some dangers would cer- tainly thence arise. Bo you think there would not be greater facility of smuggling from ports that could easily convey goods to Ireland ?— As far as Ireland is con- cerned, there might be some facility of greater danger. Are you acquainted with the ports of Liverpool and Bristol ?— Very little with Bristol of lace, I knew it very well once; I was only once at Liverpool, and then for two or three days. _ From the present situation of the port of Liverpool, is it not your opi- nion that it affords much greater facility for smuggling than the port of London, "V EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 235 London, with reference to East-India goods ?— My apprehension of the William Roe, dangers of smuggling East- India goods is, from tne time of the arrival in Esq. ^ the°Channel, r.nd transit along the coast, and the navigation up rivers l until they come to the mooring of the port of the ultimate delivery. When the vessels of Liverpool are actually arrived, and lying in the port or docks, is there any thing there to prevent smuggling fiom the vessels themselves ? — That is so general a question, it is hardly prac- ticable to give an answer; I take for granted they would station, officers there, as they do in all other ports, to prevent smuggling; it is their duty to do so, to prevent improper practices in that port. (Examined by the Committee.) Do you apprehend, as Commissioner of the Customs, that pending the war the new free trade proposed to India would return in single ships to the out-ports ?— I apprehend that vessels would, for their own safety and security, endeavour to seek and avail themselves of convoy. Then the Committee wish to be informed, the trade obtaining convoy, whether the regulations which are now in practice, respecting the con- voys which arrive belonging to the East-India Company, could not be ap. lied to the trade to the ports of Liverpool and Bristol ?- -I do not think it could with equal energy ; it might in some degree, but I think not with equal effect. Could it not be applied with equal effect, nrovided a greater number of vessels were appointed for that service ?— Not unless an additional num- ber of officers were likewise appoinred at those ports. In the supposition of an intention to smuggle on the part of the home- ward bound ships from India, after free trade is admitted and peace re* stored, do you not conceive the facilities to smuggle are more numerous if the said ships were all bound to the port of London, than to the out- ports that are provided with such securities as are suited in the resolu- tions proposed by iarl.ament ?-I do not see reason to suppose such greater facility. ' Have you not reason to believe that smuggling has been carried on to a considerable extent by the officers in the Comp my s ships ?— Inere lias been considerable smuggling by the inferior officers, and with some 1. 1 1 II 2 tne 238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Roc, the superior ones there has been smugglings I th nk it is less than it Esq- was; v What are the articles in which that smuggling has principally taken place ? — In a variety of articles ; bandanas, silks, calicoes ; there may be some tea, but I am not aware of a great deal of tea ; lately muslins, and a variety of ai tides. Do you mean silks from China or silks from India ? — From both China and Bengal ; I cannot distinguish. There is a list in the account of all articles seized. Do not you know that the officers of the East-India Company's ship- ping have been very generally concerned in illicit trade? — Very much; we have had frequent prosecutions ; that is the only way in which we know it officially, from the seizures made and the prosecution carried on. You have stated that in the port of London there are greater facilities for preventing smuggling than in the out-ports ; do not you also know there are greater facilities to the smugglers to carry smuggling into execu- tion in the port of London than there are in the out-ports? — I am not aware of such greater facility, and I think it is hardly possible to make a comparison ; because as all the import trade comes to London, the great system of smuggling must be in London, and there is no means of making that relative statement which your Lordships allude to. Do not you think that where the great system of smuggling is esta- blished, in all probability smuggling will be carried on with greater suc- cess ? — As all the ships, when they have passed along the coast, and what- ever smuggling may have taken place there, must come to the river Thames, I apprehend that must be the theatre for smuggling. When the trade is divided and shared in different ports, can the smug- gler afford to arrange the same system that he is known to have arranged while it is confined to the port of London ? — I apprehend that wherever there is facility for smuggling, thai the smuggler will, as far as he can, avail himself of it, and that there will always be found smugglers to smuggle. Is not the system of smuggling established in the port of London tended with great expence on the part of the smugglers? — I am not] pared to answer that question ; I am not aware of it. at- pre- From EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 237 From your situation as a commissioner of the Customs have you not JFilliam Roe had an opportunity of seeing that the smugglers must have a very ex- Esq. tended connection along the coast for the purpose of smuggling ? — They «- - v , t must certainly have connections along the coast, or they would not smug- gle along the coast ; they are brought to London, most of the articles that are so smuggled along the coast. Can these extended connections be systematically established but at a large expence on the part of the smugglers ? — I am not aware of the na- ture of those systematic plans for smuggling; I believe they have been very much broken lately as to general smuggling. I think, the result of the information we have lately received is to that effect. Does that apply exclusively to the port of London or to the out-ports ? — To smuggling along the coasts in different parts of the coast. Do you conceive that the danger of smuggling is in proportion to the extent of coast after the ship touches the land before she arrives at the port ? — I apprehend that is one of the dangers, and a material one. Is not a ship exposed to pass a greater extent of coast coming from India and bound to the port of London than coming from India and bound to the port of Bristol ? — I am not prepared to answer that question, it is a question of distance ; I have stated that from the Downs they are guarded, and therefore I should take that out of the danger. Do not you believe that the smuggling which you suppose is carried on by the Company's officers frequently takes place between the Downs and London ? — I believe it does, but it must be by the corruption of our officers if they are put on board. Do you happen to know whether smuggling of teas in this country is carried on to any extent by the Americans ? — I am not prepared to an- swer that ; I believe there was smuggling at Liverpool. Do you know whether smuggling was so carried on or not ? — There is a return annexed to those accounts which states where they have been seized on board American vessels. In any view you can take of the subject, have not the Americans had as great a facility of smuggling as ships that might be bound from India and China 238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Roe, China to certain of the out-ports ?— 1 see no particular reason why they Esq. should have had less ; they are boarded in the same way ; but 1 am not v — v ■> prepared to ansiver that question correctly. The Committee wish to know whether of late, during warfare, the ships returning from India, under the convoy of Americans, must not have had greater difficulty than the ships returning from India without ? — I see no grounds to suppose that. Do you not know that the articles of cotton, indigo, and sugar are lia- ble to a rated duty, and not to an ad valorem duty ? — I apprehend they are. Do you not know that the only articles from China and India upon which an ad valorem duty is collected, which can be deemed of any real consequence to the revenue, are piece-goods and tea? — 1 apprehend they are th emost material articles. In what sized vessels is smuggling usually carried on ?— That is a ques- tion I am not enabled to answer; in all sorts of vessels ; at present I ap- prehend it is carried on in small vessels, by boats, by small luggers, by vessels going from shore to shore to meet vessels, and principally at pre- sent by bringing over and sink ng articles, as far as spirits are concerned. Do you conceive, that if the confiscation of a ship of 350 tons regis- tered admeasurement, with her cargo, should be made the penalty on teas being found on board, would render it worth a merchant's while to risk such a smuggling adventure from 'ndia for that purpose ? — it would cer- tainly operate as a very essential and great check upon such an adven- ture ; but still we find that merchants ships are sometimes rendered liable to seizure for smuggling transactions. Has it come officially to your knowledge that teas to any considerable extent have been smuggled in here from the United States ? — It has not come to my knowledge. Do you conceive that an ad valorem duty could not be equally accu- rately collected upon piece goods, with the collection of it upon other articles upon which it is at present collected in that way by the declara- • tion of the party ? — I should find a difficulty in answering that question. Do EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 23() Do you conceive there is any difference, and if so, what ? — Piece goods William Roe, are a very general term ; I think there is always a difficulty in the collec- Esq. tion of an ad valorem duty by a declaration of the party, and the officer ! v ' very frequently is compelled to take the articles, because he apprehends them to be under valued ; frequently to the injury of the Crown. Would not the officer have the same facility in taking the goods under the declaration of the party, supposing that principle to obtain with re- spect to piece goods, as he has with respect to other articles at present ? — If an officer was equally competent to know the value, and if the ten per cent, upon that value would cover the Crown from loss, I apprehend it would be so. You have described the precautions that have been taken by the Com- missioners of the Customs upon ihe arrival of an Indian fleet ; would it be practicable to take the same precautions, supposing the arrival of ships from India bound to London, in single ships ? — They would not apply. Do you conceive that there is no danger to the revenue in the re-landing of East-India goods on their re export from the port of London ? — A considerable danger I think. You referred to smuggling by officers of the East India Company, has it fallen within your knowledge whether that smuggling has been carried on by captains and by mates ? — Principally by inferior officers, and some- times by mates, and I believe there have been cases were captains have been guilty of such practices. The witness is directed to withdraw. Then GLOCESTER WILSON, Esquire, is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : {By Counsel) I believe you are a Commissioner of the Customs ? — lam. GloceslerJFiJson, Esq. Have you had occasion, in consequence of the commands of the Lords of His Majesty's Treasury, to consider of the proposed measure of open- ing to the out-ports the import trade from India, with reference to the effect it might have upon His Majesty's revenue of Customs? — I was pre- sent at the drawing up one of the reports, and I signed it. Do 240 MINUTBS OF EVIDENCE ON THE GloceslerWilson Do you know, from your situation as a Commissioner of the Customs, Esq. that in spite of all the pains that have been taken to prevent smuggling, 1 y ; and the Indian trade being confined to the port of London the smug- gling of teas and India goods has actually taken place, during the last five years, to a considerable amount ? — I know that there has smuggling taken place ; I think we have made a report of what the amount has been ;. I think it has been about £ 10,000 a year. Do you know that large seizures of such goods have been made during the period last stated, that five years, both in the port of London and at the out-ports ? — I think at the port of London principally; 1 think not very large seizures at the out-ports. In the event of the import trade from Tndia and the Eastern Islands, by which I mean the Eastern Archipelago, being opened to the out-ports of this kingdom, are you of opinion that the danger of smuggling would be greatly increased ? — I think it was an opinion of our practical officers that it would be increased ; I think the Board have so reported. Do you think that that danger would be increased upon the restoration- of peace? — I think it is the opinion of the Board, but that they have some doubt upon that subject. I think it is the opinion of the practical officers, in genera), that it would be increased. Can you state upon what gounds that opinion is founded ? — I think principally upon the vessels coming separately, and upon there being fewer of the King's cruizers that would be likely to examine them. Would it not be an additional reason for that opinion, that there be- ing no convoy, the ships would delay their passage for the purpose of smuggling? — Yes, that is one of the reasons mentioned, 1 believe, in the report. Do you think that the most effectual means for preventing smuggling have been already taken, under the advice and under the authority of the Board of Customs-? — Of course ; if we were aware of any other, it would have been our duty already to have represented them. In your opinion, to what registered tonnage would it be advisable to Kstrain ships'tradirg from India and from the Eastern Islands, for the pur- poses of preventing smuggling ? — I am not myself very competent to answer that. We have recommended 40O tons, if I am not mistaken ^ but EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, 241 but I think some of the officers have saH, that 400 tons would be ne- GlocesfcrWiUon cessary at a distance from the ports, but that small vessels were better E q- guarded in the ports. That for the sake of security before they arrived, * ■ ' ■ ,m \ a large tonnage was highly essential, but that in the ports smaller would be perhaps better guarded. Is it your opinion, that the duty upon those articles imported from India or China, which is at present ascertained according to the value or the sale price, can he collected at any out-ports without incurring the hazard of a great defalcation of revenue ? — If they were to continue to be collected as ad valorem duties, there certainly would be great difficulty, and there would be great difficulty in changing to a rated duty. Are you of opinion that the open public manner in which such goods are at present exposed to sale by the East-India Company, affords the revenue a degree of security it is impossible to obtain at any out-ports ? — I do not know about the impossibility at an out-port ; I think it is attended with good consequences in the port of London as it now is, and I should certainly thi ik. there wo Id be a great difficulty ; but with respect to the impossibil ty, I certainly can answer no further, than that it would be attended with some difficulty to arrange it. Can you state to the Committee the securities that are derived to the revenue from the present system ; I mean the exposing of goods to open sale by the East India Company ? — I am not competent to do that my- self, otherwise than as I recollect the report of o,:r officers. I believe it is considered to be by securing a greater number of purchasers by the notoriety of the time when the sale takes place, and giving an opportuni- ty to foreigners to come over in the time of peace. Do you think that it would be dangerous to the revenue to change the ad valorem duty up m such goods into a rated duty, either in London or in the out-ports ? — I cannot consider my own opinion upon that, as an opinion that could have any weight ; I certainly could not conceive a way in which it could be easily done; but that would be a matter of arrange- ment, if it was necessary. Are you competent to give an opinion, whether it would be prejudicial to the revenue and 'o trade, to form an average rate of duty upon such goods, by taking their value upon their sale prices at different periods?— It certainly would be an entirely new system, and I should think would 2 I b* 242 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Glocesferll risen be attended with some inconvenience ; with this, that articles of small ksq. value would perhaps cease to be imported. Supposing the amount of the trade from India, and of the number of ships engaged in it. to be the same, do you think there would be more or less danger of smuggling, if the trade was confined to the' port of Lon- . don, or if it was divided with the port of London, or if it was divided between the port of London and any one or more of the out-ports ? — The opinion of the Board, I believe, is that the danger would be greater. Is it likewise the opinion of the Board, that that danger would be in- creased in proportion to the increase of the trade of the out-ports, and the number of their ships ? — I believe I understand the question to be more than in proportion to the increase of trade, because, if there was an increased trade, and a proportionate increase of smuggling', I should not have felt myself at liberty to say, that the smuggling was increased. Do you mean that the smuggling would be actually increased though not proportionally increased ? — i understood the opinion of the Board to be that it would be more than proportionally increased. Do you think that, in the event of the import trade from India being extended to the out-ports of this kingdom, there would be danger to the manufactures of this country, by the introduction of illicit and prohibit- ed articles that might supplant those manufactures ?— I am not competent to form a further opinion upon that, but that there might be an increased opportunity of smuggling, and of course of bringing in prohibited ar- ticles, or articles that might interfere with the manufactures. It is already in evidence that regulations and measures have been adopt- ed by the Board of Customs to prevent illegal practices upon the arrival ©f the East-India fleets, is it your opinion that that same system could take place with respect to the out ports if the import trade were open to them ?■ — It would seem to require that all the import trade should be obliged to come up the Channel ; supposing that ah the ships were obliged to enter the Channel I think it could be extended, but it would increase the expence by requiring officers to be sent further on. Do you think that if the import trade from India were opened to the out-ports there would be any increased danger to the revenue, by the Fraudulent re-landing, and the introduction into this kingdom, or the kingdom EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 243 kingdom of Ireland, articles that had been entered and shipped for ex- GlotesterWilson portation ? — In as far as there would be a chance of an increase of smug- Rsq. gling, if there was a greater facility of smuggling there would be a greater * *— v ' facility of re-landing. Have there not been lately some peculiar circumstances in the situation of Europe which have increased the danger of re-landing ? — There have been some which may have increased it ; and there may have been some which may have given facility to the re landing. Do those causes, in your opinion, afford additional reasons for appre- hending increased danger to the revenue from opening the import trade to the out-ports, either generally or partially ? — I hardly know what rea- sons are alluded to. The reasons alluded to are the reduced tonnage of the exporting ves- sels, and the dispensing with the certificates of landing the goods ; do you think those are reasons which have given facilities to re-landing, and which would be also additional reasons for apprehending increased dangers to the revenue by opening the East-India trade to the out-ports ? — If they were continued, certainly. {By a Lord.) Do you conceive that there would be a greater difficulty in collecting rated duties at an out-port than in the port of London? — ■ No, certainly not. The Witness is directed to withdraw. Then ROBERT NICHOLAS, Esq. is called in ; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows : (By Counsel.) I believe you are one of the Commissioners of Excise ? Robt. Nicholas, — I am. Esq. Has your attention been recently directed to the effect which may pro- bably be produced in the revenue by the establishment of an open trade between the ports of this country and India ? — Yes, it has. ~v~ Have you reason to believe that any considerable quantities either of the Indian or Chinese goods have, within the last five years, been smuggled into this countrv ?— I have understood considerable quantities have been 2 I 2 smuggled 24* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Rob!. Kicholas, smuggled in the Downs; I mean to advert to a part of our report, in Esq. which we have said a great quantity of teas were seen floating in the < Y ' Downs, but i have not known of any considerable quantity being smug- gled into the country. Has any quantity of tea been smuggled from the ships of tl e Company within the period before mentioned ? -I am not aware of any great quan- tity ; the reports of our officers do not speak to a large quantity. Do you mean that the quantity smuggled has been small in proportion to the quantity consumed ?— Extremely small. So far as any smuggling has taken place - from the ships of the Company, can you state whether that smuggling has taken place before their en- trance into the Thames, or during their transit up the river? — 1 should think before their entrance into the Thames. Arc you able to state whether the complete filling of the Chinamen with goods belonging to the Company has operated as a preventive to the illicit importation of tea? — I am not able to speak to that; 1 have no knowledge of it. Do you conceive that the regular discipline established on board the Company's ships may have operated as such preventive ? — i have no knowledge of that. Is it your opinion that the publicity of the sdes at the India House has conduced to prevent the illicit use of the article ? — I do not entirely un- derstand the bearing of the question. Is it your opinion that the restriction of the Company's ships to the port of London his conduced to prevent the illicit importation of tea into this country ? — Certainly 1 think so. Let it be supposed that the import trade from India were laid open to the out-ports in general of the United Kingdom, under a reservation how- ever of the China trade to the Company; let it be supposed also that ships from this country could procure somewhere in the eastern se s an illicit lading of tea, all other things remaining the same; would the danger of illicit imports of tea into this country be then materially greater than it is at present ? — If tea was part of the loading of the ship that was permitted to be brought to the out-ports, 1 have no doubt but that t ere would EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 245 would be an increase of smuggling. The other articles of excise are very Bobt XicholGt, few; I thi-k they certainly would be more open to smuggling at the out- Esq ports than if they were confined to London. Supposing that vessels from the out-ports were nor legally allowed to import tea into this country, supposing that in point of fact they could procure cargoes of tea in the Eastern seas, could those teas be clandes- tinely landed on the coasts of this country ? — I should think they would be more likely to be smuggled, because the restrictions that might be advisable would not be so easily applied in a variety of small creeks and islands as they would be at any one great place of depot. If tea could be procured by vessels from the out-ports in the eastern " seas, would nor the danger of smuggling be, on the whole, increased ? — 1 should think it would, unless particularly guarded. What are the particular securities which, in your opinion, might be devised against the dangers in question ? — We have conceived that some alterations in the manifest act would very much guard the revenue from fraud. Do you consider the manifest act as highly operative in the prevention of smuggling? — Yes, I do, certainly. Has it fallen within your experience to know that the outsides and marks of packages of goods are often made to correspond with the ma- nifest, while the contents of the packages are incorrect?— I hove no knowledge of it, except from reports which have been presented to me as presiding at the Board of Excise ; and innumerable instances have hap- pened of improper marks having been detected. Do you conceive that a manifest could serve any effectual purpose, un- less it were authenticated by the custom-house or British consul at the port or place where the lading was made up ? — I do not think it could. Supposing, then, that vessels voyaging to India procured illicit ship- ments of tea at ports where there is neither consi'2 nor custom house, do you conceive that to such a case the provision* of ;he manifest act could be made applicable ? — Unless some person, constituted as a consul would be, was at either of those ports, I apprehend it could not be made appli- cable. Supposing 246 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robt. Nicholas, Supposing vessels to take up their cargoes in the eastern seas on coasts Esq. where there is neither consul nor custom-house, would it be expedient to 1 *" ' provide, that on their way homeward they should touch at some inter- mediate port, where the cargo might be officially examined, and an au- thenticated inventory made out ? — As far as I have been able to collect information from practical officers, I conceive it would be inconvenient, to a degree that would obstruct commerce, to unload the ship at any of those intermediate ports. Do you conceive that if smaller vessels than the ships of the Company were admitted into the trade between this country and India, the danger before-mentioned of smuggling would be greatly increased ? — I appre- hend that it would. Would you recommend a limitation of the size of vessels employed in the Indian trade from the out-ports, beyond a particular measurement or burthen ? — I should recommend to the size of at least four or five hun- dred tons. In time of peace, are not vessels of a much smaller burthen employed in conveying goods from America to this country ? — I have no know- ledge upon the subject. In the report of the Commissioners of Excise, notice is taken of the out-ports in which ihe warehousing system is established; can you state what those ports are ? — I am not sure I can mention the exact ports ; they have been authorised at different times ; but such an account could be furnished from the board very readily. The English ports, described in the report of the Commissioners of Excise as most eligible for a participation in the Indian trade, are Liver- pool, Bristol, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Dover, and Hull; are there not several of the out-ports in which the warehousing system is established, besides those mentioned in the enumeration ? — There are several. Do you mean to imply, that there are several ports in which the ware- housing system is established, and which do not furnish an adequate secu- rity against smuggling ?— I know of none which does furnish a secu- rity against smugg ing ; none of the out-ports in their present state. Dp you conceive it practicable to furnish any considerable number of the out-ports with docks surrounded by walls twenty feet high ? — I have never EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 34? never been myself at any of the out-ports tr> view them as a Commissioner Hoot. Nicholas, of Excise ; but the officers under us have been sent at different times to -ksq. the different ports, particularly of the establishment of the warehousing *""" v ' system ; and I know it was their opinion that such docks might be esta- blished there ; and that at Bristol it was an oversight, its not being thought of before the whole new arrangement there was executed. Could that plan, at most of the out-ports mentioned, be carried into effect, without a very considerable expence ? — 1 am not competent to an- swer that question. Is it within your knowledge, that within the remoter coasts of this island a very considerable quantity of smuggling takes place, in spite of the utmost precautions that can be adopted against it ? — Certainly ; I conceive that the remoter part of this coast, to vessels approaching the port of London, would be the furthest point of Devonshire or Corn- wall. Does a considerable quantity of smuggling take place in the eastern or western coast of this island, within your knowledge ? — I do not think there does. Do not the precautions against smuggling prove more effective, when conducted under the immediate eye of the Board, than on the more distant coasts already mentioned ? — I think the nearer our officers are to the Board who direct them, the more vigilant and careful they arc. Would not a vessel, proceeding from the English Channel to the port of Hull, have as many opportunities of smuggling in her way, as vessels proceeding from the Channel up the river Thames to Blackwall ? — I should think she would have more opportunities of smuggling. Do you conceive that there is any considerable danger of smuggling in the river Humber and in the port of Hull ? — I have never been at Hull ; but the repdrt of our collector there has considered Hull by "a means as secute. It is stated in the report of the Commissioner that the Bristol Channel is peculiarly favourable to clandestine trade .'— I should think it was par- ticularly so. Can 2-1 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Holt. Nicholas, Can you state from what circumstances ? — From the length of river be, Esq. fore the ship approaches the legal quay. v_ In what manner would you recommend that a vessel clearing o utfrom India, and on her return, arriving off the coast with an Indian cargo, should be guarded to the port to which she may be bound ? — I have no sort of knowledge on the subject ; if I were asked under what restrictions that vessel should sail, whether she should pursue her course without stop- ping at any other port, I should be able to answer it ; but I know nothing of a proper guard for ships coming from India till they reach the limits of cur cutters. {Examined by the Committee?) You are Chairman of the Board of Excise ? — Yes, I am. Of course then you have seen all the different reports made by your --officers on this subject ? — I am acquainted with the different reports that have been made by our officers. Do not you know that an officer under the Board of Excise, in conse- quence of the smuggling that has been carried on by the Company's offi- cers, recommended that they should be paid in money instead of being allowed privileged tonnage ? — Certainly ; I think in two reports. Docs the revenue officer who signs the manifest see the goods that are -contained in that manifest actually loaded in the vessel ? — I rather think he does not. Then, according to the present practice under the manifest act, the officer signing the manifest only knows what is on board the vessel by the declaration of the captain ? — I apprehend so. Supposing a vessel taking in a cargo, we will say in the eastern islands, and that provision shoul 1 be made in the manifest act for that vessel's going to any port, « a y Java or Prince of Wales' island, or any other port, and there declaring the foments of her cargo, and there obtain a mani- fest, would not that manifest be as effectual as it is according to the pre- sent practice in the West Indies-? — 1 should think it would. Supposing the penalty attaching upon the vessel of 350 tons registered measurement, was the confiscation of ship and cargo, upon any teas being found EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 249 found on board, would you think it worth any merchant's while to enter Robert Nicholas, upcn a smuggling adventure from India for any prospect of advantage he Esq. could obtain from such a measure ? — I think not. * "V" On what part of the coast of this island do you believe there is the greatest quantity of smuggling carried on ? — I should think the greatest smuggling was between Dover and this port ; between Dover and the port of London. Is that of goods shipped for the port of London ? — I apprehend it is chiefly of teas, and the articles I before alluded to as excisable articles im- ported from India, namely, wine, coffee, rum, and arrack. Then is the Committee to understand that the principal smuggling which now. takes place in this island is in East-India goods bound for the pore of London ? — I think so. You have said you are of opinion, that if a free trade were to take place to the out-ports, there would be a greater facility, of smuggling teas than there is at present ? — Yes, I think so.. Do you think there would be a greater facility of smuggling teas in British ships of 350 registered tons, than there would be by American ships of a smaller burthen approaching the coast ? — Supposing the India ships to be controuled by a manifest, and by other regulations, I con- ceive that the American ships would be most injurious to the revenue. Has it ever come to your official knowledge, that any considerable quantity of teas has been smuggled in here from the United States of America ? — No, I hare no knowledge of it. Have you had any opportunity of knowing whether there are any con- siderable quantities of teas go from America to Canada ? — No, we have no official means of knowing. The witness is directed to withdraw. ■2 K Then 250 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Then JOHN VIVIAN, Esquire, is called in; and, having been sworn, is examined as follows: John Vivian, {By Counsel.) You are, I believe, solicitor to the excise ? — I am. Esq. i- - - v i Let it be supposed that the import trade from India were laid open to the out-ports in general of the United Kingdom, under a reservation of the China trade to the Company ; and let it be supposed further, that ships from the out-ports could illicitly procure tea somewhere or other in the eastern seas ; do you conceive that the danger of illicit importation of tea into this country would then be greater, and how much, than it is at pre- sent ? — I think it would be greater, but the excess it is impossible for me to state, even by conjecture; that, I apprehend, would depend upon the number of ships employed in it-, because it is not possible to superintend the many ships with the same degree of accuracy that you can superintend the few. On the supposition that a very considerable number of ships were em- ployed in the Indian trade, do you apprehend that the danger of smug- gling would be very considerably increased ? — I apprehend my former answer to be an answer to this question ; I certainly think that it would. Do you conceive that any security could be devised which should prove completely effectual against the danger described ? — To devise a complete security would be extremely difficult. Indeed, none of the securities that we have at present in the law are adequate to the end for which they are intended. We still find smuggling exists, but it certainly would be pos- sible to devise some regulations that might check it considerably. What, in your opinion, would be the particular security against the clandestine running of teas on shore from vessels bound to the out-ports ? — There could be no security, I apprehend, but that of the officers watching the ships : if the tea should not be a part of the cargo, it would not be in- cluded in the catalogue of the cargo, consequently there would be nothing to direct the attention to what should be expected to be delivered out of the ship when she arrives in port. Could any security against the dangers in question be equally put in force on parts of the coast of the United Kingdom, very remote from the metropolis ? — Yes, officers might be stationed at any place upon the coast; and in proportion to the extent of officers, in the same proportion would the revenue be more or less secure. On EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 25 1 On the supposition that the officers attached to the Excise should not John Vivian, be considerably increased in number, do you conceive that the security Esq. mentioned in the last question could be effectually applied on the remoter v v ' coasts of the island ? — Wherever there are few officers stationed, there certainly would be opportunity of smuggling in the tea; and if officers were to be stationed every where, it would require a very considerable increase indeed to the present establishment. (Examined by the Committee.) In what part of this island do you apprehend there is the greatest quan- tity of smuggling at present? — It is difficult to say, because there have been considerable alterations with respect to smuggling, in consequence of the new acts for Guernsey and Jersey; but I apprehend myself that the smuggling of salt between this and Ireland, is one of the greatest smug- gling calamities we sustain at present. Do you think that if there was from India a free open trade to the port of London, that that would greatly increase the smuggling to this island ? — I should think it might; my reason for so thinking is, that a great com- pany is not so fit an instrument for smuggling as an individual, or any association of a few individuals, inasmuch as the company has not the same motive that an individual has; the management of the affairs of a great company (the East-India Company for instance) must be confided to few hands, therefore the motive is not so cogent ; if they were disposed to smuggle, the profits of that contraband trade would be distributed among a great number of individuals a> well as themselves ; but a great company is not so fit an instrument in itself ior smuggling, because they cannot perform the manual operations of it themselves, but 'must conduct the business through a system of organization of different officers, who must all be parties in this contraband trade, having ultimately no interest in it themselves, whereas individuals certainly could effect those purposes with simply the aid of the captain and his officers. Do not you know that the officers in the Company's service have per- formed the manual operation of smuggling with great dexteritj ? — Oh, certainly. In the event of the free trade taking place to the port of London, are not you apprehensive that the smuggling would take place, not only im- mediately near the port of London, but all along the coast in the way to London ? — I should apprehend that it would take place, not only imme- •1 K 2 • diately 252 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, diately near the port of London, but in particular in the chops of the Clvan- £sq. nel, as the sailors call it. Supposing a free trade is granted to the port of London, and a free trade to the out-ports, on the supposition that the same number of ships came under the same regulation as the other, do not you conceive they would be attended with as much danger in encouraging smuggling as the others ? — I should think that would not be the case, because in London and its environs we have a better establishment of officers ; at the same time, by altering the establishment of officers in other ports, you might put it on the same footing of security. If you are chiefly apprehensive of smuggling taking place, in the event ef a free trade, in the chops of the Channel, would not that danger be equally incurred by a free trade to the port of London as by a free trade to the out-ports ? — Undoubtedly. Is there not a certain degree of security will be derived to the revenue from the circumstance of the ships conducting the free trade b-ing of the burthen of 350 registered tons or upwards? — Of course the larger the ships are, the greater will be the security, because the fewer objects that are to solicit the officer's attention the more he will attend to them, and the fewer officers will be required. Do not you think there would be greater danger to the revenue from small American vessels proceeding to the coast than from larger British vessels coming to the coasts in the event of the trade being opened ? — American ships, undoubtedly, would have the same opportunity of smuggling that British ships have, but British ships come to this country as their domicil, or for other objects of merchandize ; if there should be other objects to bring the Americans here for other parts of their cargo, they would be on terms of equality. But would not smaller American vessels have an advantage over the larger British vessels in smuggling ? — The smaller the vessels certainly the more likely they are to escape. Does not the revenue also derive a security from the British vessel having a manifest on board, which it has not in the American ? — "o far ns the manifest goes it does, but I never can consider the manifest as that ade- quate security which it has been supposed to afford ; my reason for so think- ing is thi3, that, as the manifest act is constructed, a man is not gene- rally EAST -INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 2j3 rally bound to obs manifest, he may make as many as he pleases ; a captain John V'vian, may approach this coast, and smuggle out one quarter of his cargo, he Esq might then make out another manifest or catalogue (which i3 the same thing) of his cargo minus so much as he had smuggled ; when the vessel therefore came into poit, or was boarded by an oilicer, his cargo would agree with, the manifest ; and in the same way he might make a third, fouith, or fifth, according to the smuggling success of his voyage. Is the Committee to understand that it affords no further security except in so far as it is a declaration of what the captain chooses to say is his cargo ? — I conceive not, with this exception, that if an officer boards him at any distance from the coast, the captain delivers a copy of. that manifest to that officer, and which would prevent his subsequent smug- gling. I should, however, add, that even where disagreements are found between the manifest and the cargo, they have gteat facility in raising pretences to account for it, by stating that in truth that part of the cargo was never taken on board, the ship sailed in a great hurry, or some pre- tence which nobody in this country can contradict ; and in that way they account for the disagreements. If ships from India were bound to touch at any particular port on their way, and there make a declaration of their goods which might be sealed up for delivery here, would not that afford a certain degree of security against smuggling ? — Most undoubtedly it would. Is the Committee to understand from you that according to the present practice a ship clearing out from the island of Jamaica bound to London, the captain is not compelled under the manifest Act to deliver an account of his cargo to the Custom-House officer at Kingston ? — Certainly. Does not that Custom-House officer sign that ?— Certainly, if you are speaking of places wdiere we have custom-houses it is a different tiling : in what I have said upon the subject of manifests I meant those coming from foreign ports, not those where we have customhouses. From your knowledge of the practice of smuggling, do you conceive that any given extent of coast in this island is so well adapted, or so likely to be made use of, for carrying on an illicit trade from India, taking into consideration the population of the southern parts of this country, and the opposite coast of a foreign country, as the distance between the Land s End and Dover ?—I think not. I think, if I refer to past experience, I may venture 254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 8rc. John Vivian, venture to say, that is the coast where the smuggling is generally con- Esq. ducted, being immediately opposite to the coast of France, and Guernsey, i — — — v— — — ' and Jersey. The witness is directed to withdraw. The Counsel for the East-India Company stated, that they had con- cluded the evidence in support of their case. It being then proposed to adjourn this Committee to the first day of meeting after the recess at Easter ; The same is agreed to, and ordered accordingly. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TELE HONOURABLE MOUSE OF COMMONS, IN A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE, TO WHOM IT WAS REFERRED To consider of the Affairs of the East-India Company; — and to whom the several Petitions, which have been presented in this Session of Parliament, relating to the Trade and Shipping of the East-India Company, and the renewal of their Charter, were referred ; — and also the Petition of the East-India Company, praying to be heard by Counsel before the said Committee. LONDON : PRINTED BY ORDER OF THE COURT OF DIRECTORS FOR THE INFORMATION OF THE PROPRIETORS, By E. Cox and Son, Great Queen Street, Lincoln's-Inn-Fieltls. 1813.. LIST OF EVIDENCE. Page Warren Hastings, Esq Ri 240 — 272; MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THK COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE OF C031M0NS, TO WHOM IT WAS REFERRED To consider of the Affairs of The East India Company : — and to whom the several Petitions, which have been presented in this Session of Parliament, relating to the Trade and Shipping of The East India Company, and the Renewal of their Charter, were referred ; — and also, the Petition of The East India Company, praying to be heard by Counsel before the said Committee. Mortis, 30° die Martij, 1813. Stephen Rumboed Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. The Counsel were called in ; and Mr. Adam and Mr. Jacksoyi appeared as Counsel on behalf of the East India Company. WARREN HASTINGS, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows: Mr. Adam.] — When you were in the Council of Madras had you an ]y arren !J as i. opportunity of observing what effect the Europeans, not in the service . "Esq. of the Company, sojourning in India, might have produced to the British settlements in India ? — I do not remember any effect that was produced by the few Europeans, not in the service of the Company, that did reside in any part of the Carnatic while I was there. B h "6° 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren Hast- Is the Committee to understand that there were very few Europeans, ings, Esq. other than those in the service of the Company, who resided at Madras, v — — \~— — ' or in the neighbourhood of Madras, at the period referred to? — At Madias there was very little distinction with respect to the state of society, or the manners of the people that mixed in it, between the Europeans in the Company's service, and Europeans that were out of the setvice ; I speak of the town of Madras only ; there were several battalions of sepoys belonging to the Nabob : if I recollect he had European officers belonging to them. I am afraid I do not quite understand the question : if it respects Europeans living in the capital, there could be no difference of manners, nor any thing that could distinguish them, or could make them improper inmates of the capital. Have you, from your residence in India when you were in the council at Madras, and since, from your residence in India during the time you presided at Bengal in the government there, had the means and opportu- nity of considering what the effect would be, of Europeans settling in the manner stated ? — I do not know the manner in which you have stated their settling. If Europeans were permitted to sojourn in India, according to their own pleasure, and without any restraint, have you, from your long experience in that country, the means of stating to the Committee what the effect of that would be ? — Most hurtful and most ruinous, both to the Company's interest,, to the Government, and to the peace of the country. Nothing can be more opposite than the characters of Europeans (I will confine it to the English) and that of the natives of India. I can speak more properly to the natives of that part of India which forms our principal establishment in it, Bengal and its dependencies. The native Indian is weak in body and timid in spirit ; he is not unsusceptible of resentment, but without that feeling of shame, which, under the appel- lation of honour, in the breast of an European, makes resentment a species of law, and which overrules the fear of law, pain, danger and death. This is not the absolute character of the people taken in the mass ; the native Indian is individually such as I have described him ; but there are cases in which a provocation of general grievance would excite a whole people, and even a detached number of them, to all the ferocities of insurrection. I speak this only as distinguishing the general character of the people in the mass, from their individual characters ; individually they are meek and submissive. The Englishman is quite a different character. In India the name of an Englishman is both his protection, and a sanction for offence^ which he would not dare to commit at home. There '6" -v- EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 3 There is, besides, a tacit idea of a common participation in the Warren Host- sovereignty of the Company, which possesses, I believe, with very little ings, Esq. difference, the mind of every Englishman in it ; this idea, in the lower orders of the people, rises to despotism, and is liable to all the excesses of despotism, where the prerogative attached to it can be asserted with impunity. The aggrieved Indian has no chance with such a disparity ; he may apply to the nearest provincial court of justice, but there difficulties, which could hardly be apprehended in any other country, arrest and impede him : the distance of his residence often from the magistrate requires more time than he can spare : the expences and delays of the established courts would be an impediment to many an Indian to have recourse to it : the difficulty of obtaining the attendance of witnesses, would be very great and almost insurmountable from the same cause ; and, added to the other causes, would be more likely to prevent his complaining at all, than a too quick sense of injury to induce him to complain oa slight occasions: besides, the affinity of national appellation, language, manners, dress, and possibly of social intercourse between his oppressor and his judge, would impress him with an awe, which the other would either not feel, or fee] in a very small degree. Such I know would be the effect of a single European, not dependent upon the Company's service, residing at a distance from the seat of Government among the natives of India. But if it is proposed to let loose hordes of men of that character, I think the consequence can be no less than ruin to the peace of the country, and to -the interests of the Company. Do you consider that this unrestrained liberty of Europeans sojourning in India would lead generally to acts of tyranny and oppression upon the natives, by the Europeans or Englishmen so sojourning at liberty ? — I have no doubt but it would ; it certainly would. What do you consider the probable effect of this would be, upon the British power in India ; I mean always an unrestrained sojourning of Europeans or Englishmen in India, not in the Company's service? — I suppose that the strength of every government, however constituted, must always depend in a great degree upon the affections of the people, and the satisfaction which they feel under the pressure of it. I should think that any great dissatisfaction or disaffection of the people, would be a temptation to any of the neighbouring states, if they saw any opportunity, and opportunities often will happen in the best protected countries, to invade it. There is no tracing the disaffections ot a people, through all the chances of internal arid external warfare,} but that it would be B 2 attended 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OX THE Warren Hast- attended with bad consequences, I believe is a theoretical effect that will tugs, Esq. apply to all states. Do you conceive it to be possible practically to restrain Europeans sojourning in India according to their own pleasure, to such a residence at the principal settlements or seats of government, as would counteract the effects which you apprehend from such sojournment? — I think it not practicable. This was not always my opinion: I did think that Europeans not in the Company's service, might be confined to the principal settle- ments, or to certain boundaries without them, by certain well defined and unqualified restrictions ; and that with such a guard, the admission of free traders into the country would not only be innoxious, but even beneficial - but this opinion was founded upon the conception that the authority of the Company remained unchanged, and that all British subjects in India, re- siding in their territories, were virtually as well as legally amenable to it. But it a law should be enacted, against the sense and remonstrance of the Company, empowering British adventurers without distinction to go to India, but confining them to the principal settlements, I think they would transgress the bounds of that law j that with such an independent right, no restrictions whatever would bind them, or prevent them from making inroads into the country, and from disturbing the peace of the inhabitants. The government might interfere : there would be an appeal to the supreme court: in many cases the Company might attempt to assert a power which is vested in them, I believe, by the present Charter, if continued to the next, of sending them prisoners to England ; but there are many ways by which that might be evaded. The power of the supreme court might afford them protection in many ways, by their becoming either suitors or defenders.to it, or in any other way under its immediate authority ; and in* every instance of the kind, an appeal from the supposed aggrieved adven- turers would not always be made to any of the courts of justice, or at least not confined to them, but rather made to the people at home. The public mind, something more than jealous of power, would receive with a pre- pared and ready assent, every charge of oppression. The remembrance of the opposition which was made by the Company to prevent that licence being generally granted, would be an encouragement to falsehood in the complainant, and received as a presumptive proof, that all their acts, and the acts of their servants on such occasions, were prompted by rivalship or resentment. Thus the authority of the Company would be counteracted,, their constituted servants would be embarrassed and weakened ; and their time, of which they never have much to spare, wasted in petty contests' with lawless individuals. Would EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. "3 Would not the opening the export and import trade, from every port in Warren Tlasl- this country to every port in India, as is now proposed, necessarily lead to ingi, Esq. such an unrestrained sojournment of Europeans in India, as would become dangerous to the British Government there ? — Of the effect which an export and import trade from the outports to India would produce upon the safety of the government of the Company, I cannot speak ; but if Europeans were allowed to go into the country, and to reside where they please, I speak with certainty, that the peace of the country, and the safety of the Company, would be endangered by it. From your knowledge of the Indian character and habits, are you able to speak to the probability of a demand for European commodities, by the population of India, for their own use ? — The supplies of trade are for the wants and luxuries of a people : the poor in India may be said to have no wants : their wants are confined to their dwellings, to their food, and to a scanty portion of clothing, all which they can have from the soil that they tread upon, and their apparel almost without any cost. I am not ac- quainted with the present state of society in India, but I should conclude that the only opuient of the people are the zemindars, who are almost all, if not all, Hindoos ; and the Hindoo officers of the revenue : all their habits are simple, and such as require no aid from our trade. Of the Ma- hometans, who once constituted the most opulent part of the community, few now remain, I should suppose, but the survivors of the pensioners' that we found when we first became masters of the country ; and those, from their present impoverished state, certainly would not be able to purchase any of the articles of luxury which our ships could furnish them. I do not believe, therefore, that the demand would be increased by it. At the time you resided in India, had you an opportunity of knowing the mode in which the wealthy part of the native Indians disposed of their superfluous wealth ? — By such means as are common to all countries, with no other difference than that of the common modes of life : they would expend it in dissipation, in their pleasures, in state, but not, I think, in the luxuries of the table, nor in drunkenness. My recollection carries me no further. Were the natives of India in the habit of spending any part of their superfluous wealth in the purchase of European commodities ; or did they consider it as part of their luxury, to provide themselves with such articles as Europe furnishes ? — Some, most undoubtedly ;' laces, broad cloth to a certain amount; European furniture was at one time in some request, but not MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren Hast- not in very great, at the courts of the native princes : few of those articles ingr, Esq. now would meet a sale there. — v- Was this general throughout the country, or was it confined to Indians connected with the principal British settlements? — The country is a term of vague interpretation ; if I was to confine it to the country of Bengal, which 1 know better than any other, I should say, that in Calcutta many European articles would meet with a purchase, but little beyond, except what I have mentioned in my answer to the preceding question. According to your observation, is not the character of the native Indians in its nature stationary and immutable, and not apt to vary from the original habits of the country ? — It certainly is very stationary, I do not know whether it can be pronounced immutable : any constitutional alte- ration in the system of polity and jurisprudence, as it may afford an open- ing to new hopes or excite new fears, may give a new direction to their tempers : still the Hindoo would remain materially the same : the general conformation of their bodies, on which the physical and moral character of man depends, is not likely to undergo any alteration: in effect, I believe that the Indians now are in their dress, their manners, and in all the habits of life, just what they were at the commencement of the period of their present joog, or age ; which is perhaps as far as the history of that country extends. Are the native Indians of the higher or lower orders, who have constant intercourse with Europeans, liable, in consequence of that intercourse, to adopt European manners, habits and fashions ? — I have seen instances of that in men who from a servile principle affected to imitate the Euro- pean manners and habits ; but instances of that kind are very rare. During the period of your residence, was there an exportation of European or English common articles exposed in the principal settlements for sale ? — Certainly ; there always was in all the principal settlements, and is so now. Can you state what degree of vent or sale those articles had among the native population ? — I cannot ; I should conceive that the European inha- bitants would be equal, if not the principal purchasers. May I be permitted to add one observation, as a close to the evidence which I have given in answer to the questions which have been put to me respecting the consequences of an unrestrained intercourse of Europeans, not EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7 pot in the service of the Company, with the natives of India ; for, from Warren Hast- I believe the uniform tenourin which my opinions have been delivered, it ingtj Esq. is possible, but I hope not, that suspicion might be entertained, that I have delivered them under the bias of an attachment to the East-India Com- pany. It is necessary that I should obviate the possibility of such an imputation on the credit of the evidence which I have delivered. An at- tachment to the Company I certainly do feel ; an attachment of gratitude for the service which has given me bread, and employed what I possessed of talent, during all the active part of my life ; and for the bounty from which, though its source is now closed, I still draw my subsistence : but neither is this the place, nor the present an occasion, to admit of the influence of that sentiment : I wish to prove that this profession is not loosely stated, nor the declarations which I have made, made on slight grounds; and that my opinions are neither new, nor drawn from me by the occasion. Twenty years ago when the present Charter was under con- sideration, I addressed a letter to the Chairman, or Chairmen for the time being of the Court of Directors upon this very subject ; in which, so far as I can trust to my recollection, I strongly urged the necessity of providing against the irruption of British adventurers into India, and beyond the bounds of our settlements ; arguing from it, that they would molest and oppress the people, and plunder the country ; and I believe I expressed a wish that some provision should be made against it, in the Charter then depending. I have either lost or mislaid the letter, so that I have no access to any copy of it: therefore lean only speak to its identity, and to the general import of it. I mention this to show that it is not a novel doctrine which I humbly deliver to this honourable House. My letter, I know, was seen, and I have a pleasure in thinking that it was approved, by the gentleman that then presided over the Board of Commissioners for the affairs of India ; a man, who certainly, if it could be said of any man, required no light from the judgment of another to aid his own; and. therefore it would be the height of arrogance in me to suppose that I had any share of merit in the event which followed. I have mentioned the fact only to show, how early my opinion was formed, and with what anxiety and earnestness I acted upon it. A clause was inserted by Mr. Dundas, in the Act of Parliament, and in the Charter constituted from it, by which it was enacted, " that no British subject not being a servant of the East India Company should be allowed to reside in India, except at the principal settlements; unless by a special license from the Company or the governors of India." This license I thought defeated the essential purpose of the prohibitory clause ; but I waited till another occasion induced me again to address the Court of Directors through the similar official channel of the chairman and deputy chairman 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren Hast, of that body; which I did, in a letter dated the 12th of March 1305, tags, Esq. strongly remonstrating against this exception to the general clause, as < v — -_-» liable *o be productive of greater mischiefs from the few favoured Euro- peans who were allowed the benefit of it, than if all men indiscriminately were allowed to possess the same privilege. Again, on the 28th of April last, I a third time took up the same subject, and addressed a letter upoa it to the present chairman of the Court of Directors, reiterating my for- mer objections, and the arguments connected with them, and proposing as a means of preventing the deprecated abuses, certain restrictions to which 1 have alluded in my answer to one of the first questions proposed to me. This letter contains all that I had written upon the same subject in my preceding letter of March 1802, in a quotation from it. This will, and the first letter which I have mentioned, would (if I could produce it) strongly prove that such always was my opinion. This honourable House will have ample means of knowing, from more recent testimony than mine, whether the mischiefs which I apprehended have actually come to pass, and the records of the Court of Directors will afford a'more anthentlc evidence still of their existence, if they have existed. I have the permission of the Court of Directors, in whose possession the last letter is, and I humbly refer this honourable House to it: and if this shall appear to be clearly the case, the inferences that I drew, so long ago as twenty years past, of the connexion between the allowance of British adventurers in India, not in the service of the Company, with its influence on the peace ot it, and the reiteration of the same opinion through so long a series ot time, are no longer argumentative: they are predictive ; and in that sense are an irrefragable proof, that such consequences must inevitably follow such premises. ( Examined by the Committee.) Do you recollect, during the time of your residence in India, whether any persons employed themselves as Missionaries in converting the natives to the Christian religion r — I do; I remember a very worthy gentleman in that character, Mr. Svvartz, in the Carnatic ; another in Bengal, named Kiemander: I do not know whether I can call him a missionary ; he was sent out from London, and supported, I believe, by the Society .for propagating the Gospel. I remember his conversion of one Indian, becauseit was announced with great pomp and parade. I also recollect a Catholic piiest, who resided somewhere in the district of Dacca, and had a large flock of men, whom he called Christians, about him : but he himself appeared to me to be ignorant of the common languages of the country ; and that his converts were Christians only in name and dress, but EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 9 but could not have' acquired a knowledge of our religion from a man WttHtn H who had no medium of language to communicate it. I do not recollect xws, Esq. any others; I know there were more of the Catholic missionaries. <■ , ° v > Were the persons soemploying themselves as Missionaries, under thecon- froul and subject to therestraint of the East IndiaCompany? — Idonotknow that Mr. Swartz could be considered as a subject of the Company: he vi- sited, and occasionally resided, I believe, in every part of the peninsula, and was every where respected. Mr. Kiernander, whom I too inconsider- ately named as appertaining to this character, was a constant resident in Calcutta, and equally amenable with every other inhabitant of it, to the British laws and government. The Catholic priest I have mentioned, I knew during the time in which the Nabob Jaffier Ally Cawn held the ni- zamut : he was then very old : I do not know whether he survived the re- volution that afterwards took place in the government of that country. From your knowledge and experience of the manners and habits of the natives of India, what in your opinion would be the consequences, if persons were allowed to employ themselves as Missionaries in converting the natives to the Christian religion, unlicensed, and subject to no restraint on the part of the East-India Company ? — Unlicensed, and under no restraint ? I do not know how that possibly could be, therefore I beg that that may be expressed with a little greater latitude. Unrestrained as to the mode which they may think proper to adopt for effecting their object of converting the natives to the Christian religion ? — I cannot tell what the effect would be generally ; if such a case had happened when I held the first place in the government of India, and such persons demeaned themselves properly, I should have taken no notice of them : but if they gave occasion to a belief that the government itself tacitly encouraged their designs, from an apprehension of the consequences which such a belief would produce upon the minds of the people, and especially the irritable spirits of the Mahomedans, I certainly should have checked the attempt, and withdrawn them to Calcutta, or, if they afforded sufficient cause for it, compelled them to quit the country : when I speak of myself in the first person, I mean I should have recommended that conduct to the members of the government over which I presided. Upon what grounds do you form your opinion, that the residence of certain persons in India by license, would be more dangerous to the interests of the East-India Company in India, than the indiscriminate re- sort of all Europeans to India ? — If it refers to the license which is made C an 19 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE H arren Hast- an exception from the prohibitory clause in the Act of Parliament, my ingSy Esq. objection is a very strong one. Other adventurers would go under the V- v ' jealous eye of Government, and would excite their attention, and govern- ment would certainly use the most efficient means in its power to keep them under control: but if none were allowed to go into the country wkh a permission and license to trade in it, to erect factories and dwelling houses, and to carry on a traffic with the natives, but such persons as went out patronized by the Company, or by the Governor ot the Presi- dency, those are the worst men you could let loose amongst rhem : they would go armed with power and an influence which no man would dare to resist ; and those are the men that I should apprehend more uanger from, than an indiscriminate rabble let loose upon the country : in oppo- sing the attempts of such men, every man would think that he was acting in opposition to their patron. Are you acquainted with the 9th Report of the Select Committee of this House, made in or about the year 1782, upon the subject of the Company's mode of carrying on its India trade ?— -I do not recollect it. Are you aware of any strong opinion expressed by any Committee of this House, in their Report upon the Company's dealing in its own tribute, as affecting both the Indian and British interests ? — I do not recollect any thing of that Report. Did you or did you not, as Governor Genera] of Bengal, at different periods after the Company began its practice of laying in investments from its tribute, remonstrate by letter to the Court of Directors, upon the per- nicious effects of this system ? — I remember no such remonstrance ; and if I clearly understand the intent of the question, I think I could not have made such remonstrance; at the same time I am well aware that something implying it must exist in that Report, or the question would not thus be put tome. I ought long ago to have apologized to this honourable House, and to have bespoken its indulgence for any inaccuracies, or for any hesitations or mistakes which I may have committed in delivering my evidence. I have never, in any part of my life, been accustomed to speak in public, and I am now less qualified for it at my very advanced time of life. With this apology, I hope it will not give offence, if I say that I do not clearly understand what the Company's tribute is. By tribute is meant dealing in the superfluous rent, after paying all charges civil and military, applying the superfluous rent in the purchase of investment ? — It was the custom of our government ultimately to bring all receipts of money, however produced, into one indiscriminate head of Treasury : EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1 1 Treasury: all our advances for the different services of the government Warren Tlast- were madefrom this general mass; and I do not know how, in such advances, ings, E q. any discrimination could have been made of the peculiar f'.'.nd from which <— *— -— ' it had been supplied. I am afraid I speak from weakness of apprehen- sion ; but lam very willing to refer to the documents themselves, which will better show than any comment I could make upon them, if I saw them, whether my conduct and opinions, delivered at that time, were contrary to the general mode which I have described. "What is your opinion as to the political effect of he measure proposed, respecting a Church Establishment for India? — The question is one of gre*at intricacy, and of such delicacy, that I should almost fear to speak to it; but that my respect for this honourable Mouse enjoins it; because, though it specifically mentions only political effect, yet it intimates no allusion to the nature of the office itself. Of the religious uses or present necessity of such a creation, I cannot be a judge, and therefore can say nothing to it ; and unless I knew both circumstances, and the objects of the creation, it would be impossible for me to conjecture in what way they could affect the. peace of the country. May I say without offence, that I wish any other time had been chosen for it ? A surmise has gone forth, of an in- tention in this government to force our religion upon the consciences of the people in India, who are subjected to the authority of the Company : it has pervaded every one of the three establishments of Bengal, Fort St. George, and Bombay, and has unhappily impressed itself with peculiar force upon the minds of our Native Infantry, the men on whom we must depend in the last resort for our protection against any disturbances which might be the effect of such surmises. Much would depend upon th» temper, conduct, and demeanour of the person elevated to that sacred office. I dare not say all that is in my mind upon this subject ; but it is one of great hazard. Would there be, "in your opinion, the same danger now, as twenty years ago, from the admission of Europeans into India, considering the great political changes which have taken place in that country ? — I think there would be as great danger ; from circumstances, I think the danger would be greater. There were not the same pretensions then raised as have since been ; and any such adventurers now would go out armed widi rights, which at that time were not thought of. Do you think there would be any danger to the British interests in India, from the residence of a few additional European merchants and agents at c 2 the "V- 1? MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Warren Hast- the different presidencies, or from their admission occasionally into the. ings, Esq. interior of the country for mercantile purposes, under the present restrictive J regulations of the honourable Company ? —I think there would : I think I have already said so, and assigned my reasons. What is your opinion of the effect of the union of the sovereignty and commerce of India, in the hands of the honourable Company ; is it be- neficial, or otherwise, to the interests of that country ? — The sovereignty of the Company is certainly beneficial to the country. The union of its commercial with its political interests in it, has never yet produced, to my knowledge or belief, any detriment to the inhabitants : I do not know how it should. Their investment affords a livelihood to thousands ; it animates the industry of the people, and is equally beneficial to both. I know not whether this question alludes to a trite maxim, that a government can never take upon itself the conduct of mercantile concerns, without in- justice and oppression. I suppose the meaning of this maxim is, that it would apply all its authority and influence to exclude or oppress all its competitors. The Company have no competitors yet ;. and I know not in what other sense the union of the two concerns can be deemed incom- patible. Are you of opinion that the commerce of India, as at present regulated,, is as advantageous to that country and to Great Britain, as it would be, if free and equal to all the subjects of Great Britain ?: — Certainly, as much,, and much more so. Do you recollect having written a Review of the State of Bengal, many- years ago ? — I do. Do you recollect having stated, in that Review, that although we had been so long in possession of the sovereignty of Bengal,, yet we had not been able so far to change our ideas with our situation, as to quit the con- tracted views of monopolists ;. and that thence, in all the correspondents of the Board of Trade were found constant complaints of private merchants making advances to the Company's weavers, and their giving greater prices than had been hitherto given by the Company ; upon which oc- casion did you express, as your opinion, that it was of less consequence that the investment should be procured cheap, than that the commerce of the country should flourish ; insisting upon it, as a fixed and incontrovertible principle, that commerce could only flourish when free and equal ? — 1 do not EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 13 not remember those words in the publication of mine alluded to ; I have Warren Jlasl- no doubt they are there, but I do not come here to defend my own incon- ings, Esq. sistencies; if I have expressed myself in the terms which I have listened v v ' to, and clearly understand them, I positively abjure them ; they are not my pre>ent sentiments*: my sentiments are, and I cannot say when I changed them from others of a different description, that the commerce of every country, how much soever extended, is beneficial to it abstractedly considered, without any other circumstances connected with it. ^ ith this sentiment I was of opinion, when the rumour first existed of an intention in the Americans to send ships to the port of Calcutta, that they should be admitted, and that they should be even encouraged to come : I think such admission, if allowed as an indulgence, and not conceded or enacted as a right, would be good policy, not only with the Americans but with every other country : but I should think it a very unwise policy to grant it as a right ; because in the first instance, the government would hold an effective controul over the trade to prevent the abuse of it ; and in the latter they would have a national interest to contend with in every dis- agreement, and involve its own parental state in the contest. Would it be consistent in your opinion, with the security of the British Empire in India, to allow Missionaries to preach publicly, with a view to the conversion of the native Indians, that Mahomet is an impostor, or to speak in opprobrious terms of the Brahmins and their religious rites ? — It would neither be consistent with the security of the British Empire in India, to treat the religions established in thg. countries of their dominion with contempt and opprobrium ; nor with common humanity. U such a de- claration of war was made between the religions of the country, between- the professors of ours and those of the established religions, i know not what would be the consequence. There have been among the Mahometans, bigors more ferocious than any that have shed the blood of their brethren In Europe. If a fanatic should arise amongst them, and preach "the doctrines inculcated in their koran, I do not think it impossible that he might excite the zeal of thousands of abettors, and a religious war be the consequence of the first provocation. I do not say that such an event is likely to happen ; but such have happened ; and our government is not exempt from the chances of their recurrence. Was the Christian dress worn by the converts, to whom you alluded in your former answer, of European manufacture ? — I never saw them ; but they were of the meanest of the people, and I should doubt whether they had any garments at all, more than the most necessary and scanty portions of dress, such as belonged to that order of the Bengalees.. In 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE warren Hast- In your calculation of the mischiefs that will arise, in consequence of tngs, Esq. individuals residing in India, who are not servants of the Company, can * v -_ ~_> vou ma te any distinction between Americans and British subjects ?— L>y individuals, I meant British subjects pnly, Can you state to the Committee any distinction between Americans and . British, or Europeans ?— If at any time I have mentioned Europeans, which I do not recollect, Americans could not have been at that time in my recollection, or I should have included them as participating in cha- racter, though not in name, of the same order of people. I certainly make a distinction between Americans and British. In what does that distinction consist ? — In the right of appeal, which an Englishman could make to the laws of his country, or the prejudices of his countrymen. I do not mean that our government should not be amenable to the laws; but at the distance of India from the .parent state, such appeals wantonly made would prove vexaiious to government, and un- controulable in many instances. The American competitor possesses no such advantages ; but if, peace being restored with America, they shall be allowed a right, under the sanction of a treaty with, our nation, to trade in all the territories of the Company in India, I think American adven- turers of the same character as those whom I have described in speaking of adventurers from Great Britain, would be equally mischievous : that I understand did not happen when the Americans were allowed, I forget on what terms, but I believe of a right, to trade with our settlements in India ; nor do I know that they evet went beyond the capital settlements, or that they afforded any ground of complaint. [The Witness withdrew. The Right Honourable Lord TEIGNMOUTH was called in; and a Chair being placed for his Lordship within the Bar, was examined as follows : lit. Hon. Lord Mr. Jackson.] — How long was your Lordship fn the service of the East Jeignmout L India Company ?— From 1768 to 1798, about thirty years altogether j I was not the whole time in India, but constantly in the service of the Company during that period ; of that period I was twenty-four vears resident in India. During EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 15 During your Lordship's residence in India, in what parts did you reside ? Rt. Hon. Lord -Chiefly in Bengal. Teignmouth. How long did your Lordship fill the office of Governor General ?— About four years and a half. During any part of your Lordship's service, were you in the revenue department ? — I was chiefly employed in that department before I succeeded to the situation of a member of the supreme council. Did such employ afford to your Lordship an ample opportunity of study- ing the characters, manners, and habits of the natives ? — I certainly endeavoured to form an opinion of the character and habits of the natives. Did your Lordship acquaint yourself with their languages ? — I was acquainted with the common language of India and the Persian. Looking to such character, manners and habits, and supposing an influx of Europeans to have access according to their discretion, to every part within the limits of the Charter of the East-India Company, and to sojourn there, according to that discretion and their own opinions, what effect do you suppose that such sojournment might have upon the general interests of the East-India Company, or of the British empire in India ? — I should think that an unrestrained influx of Europeans into India would be preju- dicial to the interests of this country, as connected with India. People unacquainted with the habits and characters of the natives, are not disposed to give that weight to their prejudices, which people brought up in the country are disposed to give. Supposing that influx to consist of seamen and traders, would those evils to which you refer, be likely to occur ?-— Not in the same degree, in my opinion, as would occur from an unrestrained admission of Europeans into the interior of the country. Are there not many seaports on either side of the peninsula, at a consi- derable distance from either of the principal seats of government ? — I. believe there may be some, both on the Coromandel and the Malabar coast ; but I do not recollect at present, any seaports where there is not' some established authority on the part of the Company. Supposing such an influx to have access to such ports, might it not be difficult to restrain them from making their way into the country ? — Under the -- v— 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE lif. Hon. Lord the present system of regulations established in Bengal, I should think Tn'gnmonh. tint they might be, in a great measure, restrained from penetrating into V v ' the country; or if they succeeded, that the police would discover them, they might be stopped, and would be sent back. Supposing a free trade to take place from every port in the United King- dom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, at the discretion ot the adventurers, is it not likely that the numbers would increase in a very considerable degree ? — At first, the numbers I think would be great ; but the disappointment which I should conceive would arise in the commercial speculations, supposing them to be carried on to the extent specified in the question, would prevent that great influx of Europeans which it supposes. While those numbers should continue great, would not the difficulty be considerable of restraining them, either as to conduct or place of abode ? — It would be difficult in proportion to the numbers, but not altogether impracticable. Supposing such adventurers to meet with the disappointment alluded to, would not they be driven to seek other means of maintenance in India ?— - They probably would attempt it, and some might contrive to obtain a residence in India. If such free trade be allowed not only directly to the ports within the limits of the Company's Charter, but coastwise from port to port, would not then that difficulty be increased, or rather would not such restraint become wholly impracticable ? — I do not think the restraint would be impracticable where the Company's authority extends. Supposing that authority should fail as to restricting either residence or conduct, and referring to the circumstances, habits and prejudices of the natives what does your Lordship suppose might be the consequence of such failure in point of restriction ? — I really hardly know how to answer lhat question ; I am not sure that I quite understand it. Supposing, under the circumstances stated of coasting from port to port, and the unlimited communication which has been described, the restraint should not be found sufficient, what do you then apprehend from the unrestrained intercourse \vhich would take place between such persons and the natives ? — If there were an unrestrained intercourse between such peisons and the natives, that is, an intercourse that could not be restrained, it 1MT4NDM COMPANY'S AWA1JW. 17 it would imply a defect in the exercise of the superintending powers of lit- Hon. Lord the government that would in fact amount to a suspension of its functions ; Tej&ntnoulk. and in that case an unrestrained multitude would certainly be dangerous, *» in many points of view. Supposing such defect to exist, will your Lordship state the evils you apprehend would arise from such intercourse with the natives? — There is one general consequence which I should think likely to result from a general influx of Europeans into the interior of the country and their intercourse with the natives, that, without elevating the character of the natives, it would have a tendency to depreciate their estimate of the general European character. Such an effect I should think highly danger- ous in a country, where the estimate of the power of the government depends greatly upon opinion ; in a country where the proportion of the natives to the number of Europeans is probably not less than two thousand to one; other inconveniences would arise in this way, from a disregard to the peculiar prejudices of the natives, and by a conduct calculated to irritate them. Does your Lordship think that such intercourse would tend to shake that opinion, upon which you have stated so much to depend ? — It certainly would have a tendency to it, which tendency would be very much increased by the number of Europeans. Would not also much depend upon the station in society that such per- sons filled ?— X think it might 5 but probably the evil would be less likely to arise from people in a higher station of society, than from those in low ranks of society. If they were composed of seamen and traders ?— If they were com- posed of seamen and traders, the danger would be proportionably great, I conceive. Would there be danger of oppression towards the natives, among other dangers r— Occasionally acts of oppression might be exercised j but in the present efficient state of the administration of justice in Bengal, I should suppose few acts of oppression could be exercised, for which redress might not be obtained. At present are Europeans answerable for their conduct in any criminal courts, except the supreme courts at Calcutta or Madras, and the recorder's court at Bombay ?— European foreigners, not British subjects, D ar« JS MSKUTES OF EVIDENCE ON* THE ItK JIo?t. Lord are subject, I believe, to the native courts established in the interior of the Teignnwtitk. country ; British subjects, in criminal matters, to the supreme court of v vr — . * judicature in Calcutta only, to the court at Madras, and to the recorder's court at Bombay. In civil suits, British subjects are amenable to the country courts in Bengal. If violence or oppression were to take place up the country, would the native have any means of bringing the oppressor to justice, unless he could afford to indict him in one of the supreme courts, or rhe court ot the recorder at Bombay? — I would wish to confine my answer to Bengal only, with which I am better acquainted than with Bombay : A native, under the circumstances described, would be obliged to apply for redress to the supreme court ot judicature in Calcutta, it it were a criminal action. If adventurers were to make their way in any numbers up into the country, is it your Lordship's opinion that the present power of the magistrates would be equal to their entire controul, or the prevention of their intrigue ? — In proportion to their numbers, the difficulty of controul- ing them would be great ; but by a proper exertion of authority, I think it might in a considerable degree be effectual. If persons were allowed to travel up the country, in order to sell their commodities, or settle correspondents, so as materially to pervade the interior of the peninsula, does your Lordship feel any apprehension from such a circumstance as that ? — I would wish to know how the word ap- prehension applies. Does your Lordship apprehend any evil consequences to arise from such persons being allowed, for the purposes of trade, or the professed pur- poses of trade, to pervade any material part of the interior of the peninsula ? — I should suppose that no persons would be allowed to go into the interior, but by the knowledge and consent of the governing power ; exclusive of those inconveniences which I have a. ready stated as possible to result from a general intercourse of Europeans with the natives of India, no others occur to me at present. Supposing them for the circumstances of the free trade, and their conse- quent numbers, to elude that vigilance, what are the evils which you apprehend ? — The evils which I have already stated to arise from a general intercourse of Europeans with natives. Considering the habits, the manners, and general character of the natives, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. l9 natives, do?? your Lordship suppose that opening the trade to India would Hi. j/ ou Lord lead to a much greater degree of consumption or European articles by the Tefentiio) th. natives of India, than takes place at present ? — I certainly do not. "V— " Will your Lordship have the goodness to state your reasons for that opinion ? — Those reasons are founded upon the particular habits and customs of the natives. I know very few articles of European manufac- ture that are used by the natives in general, or that are likely to be used by them in any considerable degree. Does your Lordship know of any wants of that description, that have not been most amply supplied by the existing system of commerce to India, with regard to European articles for the consumption of the natives, as far as that consumption may go ?— I am not aware of any wants that have not been sufficiently supplied by the trade as now carried on. Does your Lordship conclude, from your knowledge of the manners and customs of the natives, and from your long experience, that any material increased consumption of European articles upon the part of the natives, is wholly unlikely ? — I think very improbable. Has the intercourse between the natives and the Europeans, at the principal seats of government, apparently induced any taste or desire towards the greater use of European articles ? — There may have been some few instances in which the natives, out of compliment to Europeans, those natives in particular who are in the habit of giving entertainments to them, may have introduced some European articles of furniture. The Nabob of Oude had amassed a very large collection of European articles, but I do not recollect any other native in the place who had imitated his example ; from my own experience, I should not suppose the desire or taste mentioned in the question, to exist in any but a very limited degree. With regard to the great bulk or mass of the population, have they it in their power so to indulge, were it their desire ? — I should think not. Looking to general experience, have those who have had the means of accumulating some property, directed their expenditure towards European articles ? — Not according to my experience. Supposing the natives to have a wish for the purchase of European articles, do they not at present enjoy ample and sufficient oppcnunity for I) 2 such 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jit. Hon. Lord such purpose ? — I believe the opportunity is fully equal to the extent of Teisnmouthi their wishes. -y" Does your Lordship know of any material want of European articles that, generally speaking, is not in the course of being supplied by the existing system ? — I do not recollect any. (Examined by the Committee.) Would it be consistent with the security of the British empire in India, that missionaries should preach publicly, with a view to the conversion of the native Indians, that Mahomet is an impostor, or should speak in opprobrious terms of the Brahmins or their religious rites ? — I think the practice of preaching publicly the doctrines as stated in the question, would be attended with danger; but I do not think it is at all necessary that such doctrines should be publicly preached for the purpose of converting the natives of India ; there is nothing, as far as my experience goes, in the character of a missionary, that is offensive to the people of India ; and if his conduct is regulated by prudence and under the influence of that piety which he professes to teach, I think that he will be highly esteemed by the natives. The question states, public preaching : there is a distinction between public preaching and conferences with individuals ; what might be said in conversation to an individual upon these topics safely, might not be said safely when publicly preached to a multitude. I recollect in an account which was printed of the first Danish mission- aries, I believe about the year 1717, there are conversations between the missionaries and natives, and this at a period I believe, when the authority of the natives was established in India ; all those conversations go upon this principle, that the religion which the missionaries meant to preach was true, and that which they meant to oppose was false. I do not re- collect that any ill consequences appear to have happened from such conferences between those Danish missionaries and the natives on the Malabar coabt. Would the dangers that might result from the exercise of an indiscreet zeal to change the national religions, be greater or less in India than most other countries, from the peculiar habits and feelings of the people ? — I have no hesitation in saying, that the dangers attending an indiscreet zeal would be considerable ; at the same time, we have proofs, that a judicious and prudent zeal may be exercised effectually, and to the conver- sion of the natives. Would it be desirable, in your Lordship's opinion, that persons professing to EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 21 to teach Christianity in India, should act under the licence and control of Rl. Hon. Lord some ecclesiastical authority residing in that country ? — I should think it Tcigninoulh. would be more advisable to leave the control at the discretion of the v -v > government of the country, who would be much better judges how to exercise that discretion prudently. Is your Lordship aware that an opinion prevails in India, that it is the intention of the British government to take means to convert the natives of the country to the Christian religion ? — I never heard it, nor suspected it. Has not your Lordship heard, that one of the chief causes of the mutiny at Vellore, in which a British regiment was massacred, was an opinion of that kind ? — I certainly did see it asserted in print in this country, but I took some pains to clear up that point, and cleared it up completely to my own satisfaction, that the assertion was totally without foundation ; I would beg leave to mention, that my opinion upon the subject is in print, in a pamphlet that does not bear my name, but was very well known to be written by myself, entitled, " Considerations on the practicability, policy " and obligation, of communicating the knowledge of Christianity to the " natives of India." I refer to that pamphlet, as containing an answer to the question put to me. Allowing the opinion, stated before, to have existed in India, of the intention of this government to force the Christian religion on the natives of India, would not the sending out a Bishop to India tend to strengthen that opinion ? — I should think it would be viewed with perfect indifference by the natives. Your Lordship having stated, that you have known proofs of persons being converted from the Hindoo to the Christian religion ; wiil you have the goodness to state where have those instances occurred r — The proofs to which I referred, were the conversions by Swartz on the Coromandel coast. Does your Lordship know any instance of a respectable Hindoo being converted to the Christian religion ? — When I was in Bengal, I do not recollect that there were any missionaries from this country in that part ur India, excepting for a short time before I left india, and I had had no knowledge of them, so that I cannot speak of any conversions of my own personal knowledge in India. It 22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE lit. Hon. Lord Should any provision be made in an act of parliament, empowering' Tei"ttmoiith missionaries or others from this country to go to India for the purpose of U. v i converting the Hindoos to Christianity, do not you think it would be as document placed in the hands of our enemies, ot the agents of France, or v anv other agent, ot which they would make an ample handle to set that country in a flame ? — I do not think that the agents of France, or any other public enemies, would be able to make that use of it. Your Lordship does- not then think, knowing India as you do most perfectly, that were the Hindoos possessed with an idea that we had art intention of changing their religion and converting them into Christians, that it would be attended with any bad c uvequences at all? — I will ex- patiate a little in my answer to that question. Both the Hindoos and Mahometans, subject to the British government in India, have had the experience of some years, that in all the public acts of that government every attention has been paid to their prejudices, civil and religious, and that the treest toleration is allowed to them ; that there are many of the regulations of government which prove the disposition of government to leave them perfectly free and unmolested in their religious ordinances; that any attempt at an infringement upon their religion or superstitions would be punished by the government of India : with that conviction, which arises from experience, I do not apprehend that they would be brought to believe that this government ever meant to impose upon them the religion of this country. [His Lordship was diiected to withdraw. His Lordship was again called in.] Is it relying upon the good opinion that the natives have of our conduct hitherto towards them, your Lordship has answered ; or will you give a direct answer to the question, without ; that should the state of things be altered, and we not observe that conduct we have hiherto observed, but intro hue new modes and enact new laws for the carrying into effect the converting the natives to Christianity, that that would not be attended with disagreeable consequences to us? — If a law were to be enacted for converting the natives of India to Christianity, in such a manner as to have the appearance of a compulsory law upon their consciences, I have no Hesitation in saving, that in that case it would be attended with very great danger. _ Is it not rather your Lordship's opinion, that the good effects to be de- rived trom inculcating the precepts of the Christian religion amongst the natives EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 23 natives of India, had better be attempted by what is termed conferences, Rt. Hon. Lord than by any enactment in an act of parliament ? — If that enactment g es Teignmonth. only to allow persons to reside in India, for the purpose of instructing the l -v — — ^ natives in the doctrines of Christianity, I mean as far as they are willing to receive them, I should see no danger in it ; in truth I believe that all attempts at conversion are bv conferences between missionaries and indi- viduals, and that public preaching is seldom resorted to, till there is a con- gregation of converted Christians. Does your Lordship know of any converted societies or congregations ? — I understand the question to have a reference to my personal know- ledge ; I have no personal knowledge, but I have heard and read of con- versions since I left Bengal, which 1 received as credible and authentic. Does your Lordship know of any missionaries, who have conducted themselves indiscreetly? — I recollect, some years ago, hearing one or two instances alleged of misconduct in the missionaries ; I do not recollect now ot what nature they were : probably instances of injudicious zeal. Is it not usual for Europeans, on obtaining permission from govern- ment to go into the interior of the country, to enter into a penalty bond to hold themselves amenable to the courts of adawlut in all civil cases, with the view of protecting the natives from injustice and oppression in their commercial dealings with Europeans ? — I do not recollect whether they enter into a penalty bond or not, but that they are amenable in civil causes to the courts of adawlut; in point of fact, which gives the same pro- tection as if they entered into a, penalty bond. Has it, or not, been found fully to answer the purposes intended ? — I re- collect no instance to the contrary. Would there not be, in your Lordship's opinion, a greater consumption in India, of our manufactures, if they could be supplied cheaper ?— I hardly know what articles of our manufactures are consumable by the natives, excepting perhaps some woollen cloths ; certainly some people, if they were much cheaper, might be induced to purchase them, who do not now purchase them : but as to manufactures in general, 1 really do not know what manufactures of this country are used by the natives in India. Would not our woollens, in particular, be acceptable to all classes of natives, and ot all religions, in the cold and rainy seasons, if they could afford to purchase them ? — I know of no objection on the score of religion to £4 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE fit, Hon, Lord to the use of woollens jn that country; hut if the natives had preferred Teigiunouth. them to their own manufactures, J should think, they would have used C^«v» y , M ».«^ them in a much greater degree than they have hitherto done; If they were much cheaper than they have been hitherto gold, the sale of them might probably in some degree be extended, . Does not your Lordship think the natives would prefer our woollen ma- nufactures to their own cotton manufactures, in cold weather ?— of the circumstances. Is it not a practice, enjoined or encouraged by the religion of the Hindoos, to immolate themselves as a sacrifice to some of their deities or idols ?— I believe it was practised at the festival of Jaggernaut, when they throw themselves under the wheels of the car in which the idol is carried, and suffer themselves to be immolated. They prostrate themsh'es under the wheels of a heavy car, and are crushed to death ? — Such I understand to have been the practice. And that is a rejijgjbus rite enjoined or encouraged by their religion Sa- llow far it is sanctibned by their books, I cannot say ; but it was considered .as a religious rke and meritorious sacrifice, by the Hindoos themselves; thero an.'- rnsny practices which,. I believe, are not sanctioned by their books of religion. Do their Brahmins or priests sanction it, by their precepts or their presence ? — I should suppose (though I never was present at an exhibition of the kind, and 1 only speak from what I have heard) their Brahmins or their priests did certainly sanction and approve it. Are there not other modes of suicide or murder, as by throwing them- selves into the Ganges, that are in common practice among them? — I believe there are; but I do not speak from my own knowledge on the subject, but what I have collected from others. Are not some of their religious festivals celebrated by rites of unnatural obscenity ? — I never was witness to any such myself. I have known very indecent pictures in their temples, but I never was present at any indecent rites, nor can I speak to them with any certainty. The question relates for your Lordship's information and belief upon the subject, during your residence in India ? — I have heard so ; but 1 cannot speak to my own knowledge, in that part of India where I have been. Is not the Brahminical law a rule of very great oppression upon the other casts in India ?■ — The laws of the Hindoos are certainly peculiarly favourable to the Brahmins who are their priests; they have exemptions and MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE lit. Hon. Lord and immunities, which the other casts have not ; but I do not know that Tcignmonth. the Brahminical law operates as oppressive upon the other Hindoos, further than in the mode I have mentioned, if that can be called op- pression. Is the murder of an individual of another cast by a Brahmin, or the murder of a Brahmin by an individual of another cast, punished in the same way, or what are the distinctions between them ? — They are certainly not punished in the same way ; for, I believe, by the Hindoo law, a Brahmin cannot be put to death ; he may suffer punishment that shall be worse than death, but he cannot be put to death. If a person kills a Brahmin, he is guilty of a crime which is inexpiable ; and is, moreover, liable to all the temporal punishments of the law. Does your Lordship speak there of malicious killing or murder, or killing a Brahmin under any circumstances? — I certainly meant to consider it as murder; as killing with an intent to kill : how far the accidental killing of a Brahmin might be expiable, I really do not know. Is there not such a prejudice upon that subject, that a Brahmin will sometimes threaten to put himself to death, in consequence of a quarrel ■with an individual of an inferior cast, so as to bring upon that individual the guilt of an inexpiable crime ? — Instances certainly have occurred of that, in which Brahmins have used that threat as a means of extortion, or to gain a particular point; that is, they have threatened to kill themselves, unless the point which they meant to gain should be conceded to them. In your Lordship's judgment, is not the distinction of casts, enforced by the religion of the Hindoos, an insuperable obstacle to their advance- ment in civilization and in moral character ? — I do not know whether it is an insuperable impediment ; but it certainly is a very great impediment to the improvement of the moral character. What is the condition of the female sex among the Gentoos, as affected by their religion and prejudices ? — They are so concealed, that we really know little or nothing of them ; nor is it usual to talk with the Gentoos about their remale sex : I believe that their state in general is merely that of slaves to their husbands. In your Lordship's judgment, would the introduction of Christianity among the Gentoos tend materially to the improvement of their civil condition ? EAST-INDIA, COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 3 \ condition ? — I think it would tend to the improvement of their c : .vii /'/. Hon. J condition. luiouth. During your Lordship's acquaintance with India, were any efforts ; by the East-India Company, for the propagation of Christianity in Hindostan ? — None that I recollect. Were the missionaries, of whom yourLordship spoke, sent out and main- tained by the Company, or by the charity of individuals ? — When I v in India I did not know them ; for the greatest part of the last year that 1 was in India, I was absent from Calcutta ; they certainly were not sent out by the Company, but must have been sent out by individuals. In your Lordship's judgment, would the discreet and well-regulated efforts of missionaries, as they have generally conducted themselves hitherto in India, be dangerous to the peace or security of the British dominions in that country ? — I think not. Does it fall within your Lordship's knowledge or information, that other Christian countries, possessing dominions in India, have been more or less active than Great Britain, in the attempt to propagate Christianity in that, country ? — From what I have read, I should suppose much more so. Did not the Danish government, while it possessed settlements in India, use some efforts for that purpose ? — I believe it did ; but those efforts were materially assisted by the Society for promoting Christian Knowledge in this country. Did your Lordship ever hear of any inconveniences or evils that followed the efforts of the Danish government to teach Christianity in India ? — I never did. Are there not at present in India, considerable numbers of Christians, natives of the country ? — I believe a great many in the southern parts of the peninsula, particularly the Syrian Christians. Are there not considerable bodies of Christians in the island of Ceylon,, who have been converted under the dominion of the Dutch ? — I believe there are. Has your Lordship ever heard of any political evils that attended the efforts 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE M/. Hon. Lord efforts of the Dutch in that line ?— I have not: but. at the same time, I 'ieignmouth. am totally unacquainted with the Dutch proceedings. Are there not considerable bodies of Christians, who were converted to Christianity under the dominion of the Portuguese, while they had ter- ritories in India? — They certainly made great numbers of converts ; and, I believe, there are many of their descendants now remaining to this day. Was any opposition made by the native powers ; or did any convul- sions follow in those parts ot India, in consequence of the introduction of Christianity by the Portuguese ? — I know very little of the history of the introduction of Christianity by the Portuguese. When I say I did not liear of any convulsions, allowance must be made for my ignorance of the history. Having given it as your Lordship's opinion, that the gradual introduc- tion of Christianity among the Hindoos would tend to improve their civil and moral condition, is your Lordship of opinion, that the improvement of their civil and moral condition would tend to it crease their consump- tion of the various manufactures of their own or of any other country? — I do not know that it would, in any considerable degree. Would it have a tendency to that effect? — I do not think it would have a tendency. Can your Lordship give the Committee any informat : on, respecting the general character of the Danish mission in India ? — I here were two of the missionaries, Swartz and Gericke, who were men that possessed the esteem of the natives in the greatest degree ; and with respect to the general character of the Danish mission, the impression upon my mind is highly favourable to it. Does your Lordship know, whether either of those missionaries was able, at any time, from the influence which he possessed with the natives, to render any material services to the British government ? — Swartz, I believe, was, in a very considerable degree. What is the comparative moral character of the Hindoo natives of India, and the converted natives ? — I have had no opportunities of making the comparison. Does EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 33 Does your Lordship confine the description you have given of the cha- lit. lion. Lord racter of the Hindoos, to the Hindoos of Calcutta, or generally ? — To Tetgnmouth. the Hindoos as generally known to me on that side of India, not merely <- Calcutta. Is the Committee to understand, that the Hindoo women are kept in confinement, shut up? — I believe perfectly so; in a perfect state of seclusion. Does your Lordship conceive that the translation of the Scriptures into the native languages of India, would be attended with any dangerous consequences ? — None at all, in my opinion. Your Lordship was understood to say, that the government in the East- Indies had never lent itself directly to the encouragement of Christianity among the Hindoos; from your own knowledge, or any information you have had the means of acquiring there, was the government in India ever known to give any discouragement, or to show any aversion to any fair, reasonable, and discreet attempts, on the part of judicious persons, to introduce Christianity ? — I do not recollect that I said the government had never lent themselves to the encouragement of the introduction of Christianity in India ; because when I was in India there were no mis- sionaries, nor any attempts made in India, that I know any thing of. The missionaries who arrived at that time employed themselves principally in learning the languages ; which it was necessary for them to know, before they could talk to the natives, or attempt to convert them. Have the government ever shewn any discouragement to a fair and judicious attempt, on the part of discreet persons, to introduce Christi- anity ?— When I was in India, the question never occurred for them to show either encouragement or discouragement ; I have never heard, since I left India, that they have shown any discouragement. From your acquaintance with the native character, if they were to entertain the apprehension, that the government of India were secretly favourable to the propagation of Christianity among them, what effect, in your Lordship's mind, would it produce upon them ? — 1 do not think it would produce any material effect upon the natives of India, as long as they were convinced that no foicible attempts would be made to convert' them. Would not the appearance of bishops, or of an ecclesiastical hierarchy F among 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Rt. Hon. Lord among them, tend to encourage that apprehension among the natives, that Teigmnouth. force would ultimately be used to establish Christianity amongst them?—' * Y * It does not occur to me, that any such idea could possibly arise from the appearance of a bishop in that country. Have there not been, for a considerable number of years, bishops of the Roman Catholic persuasion in different parts of India ? — Not in the part of India in which I have resided ; on the Malabar coast there have. Does your Lordship know of any discontents having been occasioned by a jealousy of those bishops or ecclesiastics? — I certainly do not j but, at the same time, I have to say that I have heard very little about them at all. Was the missionary Swartz in India at the time when your Lordship was there ? — 'lie Was ; but not in the same part of India. Does your Lordship know whether Mr. Swartz went into various parts of India, professing to teach the people about Christianity among whom he went ?— In the part ot India in which he resided, which was the south- ern part of the peninsula, he certainly did profess, as I have understood, to teach the people Christianity ; and I believe since his death, the Rajah of Tanjore has granted a spot of ground for building a church within his dominions, for the use of native Christians, out of respect to the memory of Swartz. Does your Lordship know that any dissatisfaction was expressed by any number of people in India amongst whom Mr. Swartz lived, or to whom he attempted to teach Christianity ? — I never heard of any dissatisfaction of any kind, expressed at the conduct of Mr. Swartz. Does not your Lordship know that the missionary Swartz was highly esteemed by the Rajah of Tanjore ? — I have always heard so, and be- lieve it. Does not your Lordship know that he was in the greatest credit with the natives of Tanjore? — I have always understood so. Not merely credit as a respectable character ; but does your Lordship know whether, at a period when the English had lost their credit with the natives of that country, the natives did not enter into contracts with the missionary Swartz ; and whether they did not take his word for the fulfilment EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIHS. 35 fulfilment of those contracts, when they would not take the word of any R(. Hon. Lord other person ? — The circumstance, as it has been represented to me, has Teignmeuth. this difference, that they took the word of Svvartz when they would not «■ , » take the engagement of their own Rajah. Before I withdraw, I beg leave to state, that many questions have been proposed to me, upon which, if they had been given me beforehand, I should have taken two or three days to consider of them, before I returned my answers. I have given the best answers which occurred to me at the instant, and I trust the nature of the questions will be my apology for any mistakes I may have made in my answers. [His Lordship withdrew. The Chairman was directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. Mercury t 31° die Marty 1813. Stephen Rtjmbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. WILLIAM COWPER, Esq. was called in and examined as follows : Wm. Cowper, f .. Mr. Adam.] — How long were you in the service of the East-India Company, in India ? — Upwards of thirty years. In what settlement ? — Bengal. How long have you retired from the East India Company's service ?— Upwards of twelve years. "When you resided in Bengal, was your residence in the provinces only, or in Calcutta, and likewise in the provinces ? — In Calcutta, and in the provinces. In what provinces ?— Bengal, Orissa, and Oude. E 2 ^Ycre 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wm. Corvper, Were you at any time in the revenue board? — I was president of the Esq. board of revenue for nearly five years. v v _*» Were you afterwards in Council ? — During ten years I was in council. From vour knowledge and experience of those provinces and settle- ments of the East India Company, in which you resided, can you speak. to the probable effect of an unrestrained intercourse of Europeans in those settlements? — I should apprehend that such an unrestrained intercourse would endanger the peace of the country. It certainly would create the greatest embarrassments to the local governments, and to the autho- rities under them. Do you conceive that such an unrestrained intercourse would affect the happiness of the native Indians ; and, if so, in what manner do you think it would affect them ? — Undoubtedly it would subject them to every kind of persecution on the part of the new adventurers. Do you mean, that oppression to the natives by the new adventurers, would be the likely effect of the unrestrained intei course of Europeans ? — It certainly would. Perhaps I ought to mention, that I understand by the word unrestrained, that they should be subject to no particular regulations, and only liable, in case of any actual offence against the law, to the punishment which the law might ordain ; that they would, of course, have the liberty of going into the interior, and conducting themselves there at their own discretion, until such time as they might commit any act of oppression, when, of course, they would be rendered subject to the authorities in Calcutta. Are offences, by Europeans against the native Indians, triable any where but at the supreme court in Calcutta ? — It was with reference -to my understanding that they are not triable except at Calcutta, that my answer to the last question was formed : Such was the regulation when I quitted India, that Europeans committing offences in the interior, could be tried for those offences only at Calcutta. Do you understand that the distinction with respect to jurisdiction over Europeans or natives of Great Britain and Ireland in India is, as to civil matters, open to the provincial courts, but as to criminal matters, only to the supreme court at Calcutta ? — I really cannot answer that question pre- cisely : Certainly, in respect to criminal matters, such offences in Europeans were cognizable only by the supreme court at Calcutta ; but I cannot charge EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 57 charge my memory, at this distance of time, whether civil 'suits were Wm. Crc/>cr, triable by the provincial courts. Esq. Can you state from your local knowledge, the distance from the extreme part of the English possessions dependent upon the Bengal government, from Calcutta ; how far is it from Calcutta to the province of Oude, for instance ? — About 700 miles, I believe. How far is it from Calcutta to Delhi ? — Eight or nine hundred, proba- bly ; but I cannot speak accurately at this distance of time. Do the possessions of the Company, dependent upon the B'n«-al government, extend to Delhi and Oude? — I believe they do; I have heard so ; they did not when I was in India. Can you state the number of miles across, from side to side, of the possessions of the Company, under the Bengal government, west and east of Calcutta?— I really cannot, because I do not know where the western boundary now terminates ; I should imagine it cannot be in any part of its breadth more than 500 miles. Can you state the probable effect of Europeans being frequently subjected to punishment, upon the European authority in India ? — The obvious consequence of such frequent punishments, would be to degrade the European character in the eyes of the natives of Bengal : I understand the question to refer to the punishment of Europeans residing in the interior. If there was a large resort of Europeans to the interior of India, do you conceive that, in case of their misconduct becoming general, it would be easy to remove them, or to regulate them ? — I should think it ex- tremely difficult to regulate them, if not impossible, in the circumstances stated by the question ; it would be easier to remove them than to regulate them, most undoubtedly. Have you had any opportunity of judging, from the situations you held in India, of the probable consumption of European commodities there by the natives, in case of a free trade ? — 1 should imagine that the consump- tion of European commodities by the natives would always be very trifling ; the poverty of the infinitely greater part of the population, renders it impossible that they should indulge themselves by the purchase of such commodities ; and, even if they had the means, it is my opinion that theic 58 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE )Vm. Cawper, their habits, their prejudices, and their customs, would all operate to Esq. prevent their consuming any quantity of such commodities. *>» — «Y 1 Had you an opportunity, during your residence in India, of knowing the general price of labour in the provinces in which you resided ?— Generally speaking, it was extremely low in all, but it varied of course, depending on local circumstances; for instance, in the province of Chittagong, which is the eastern dependence of the Bengal empire, a labourer certainly, twenty-five years ago, thought himself extremely well paid, if his labour procured him to the amount of three shillings a month. At Calcutta, the same description of person would have earned five shillings or six shillings, perhaps; of course the wages of labour must depend a good deal upon the nature of the profession exercised. If the question means to advert to the husbandmen in the provinces in Bengal, the sums mentioned I should imagine pretty correct. Do their habits of living, provided their manners and customs would permit, admit of any saving sufficient to enable them to become purchasers of European commodities ? — I should think, certainly not. Is the Committee to understand from you, that the great bulk of Indian population never can become purchasers of European commodities ?— I think so. Are you enabled to state, from the knowledge you had of India when you resided there, whether the natives, residing in towns where there were European settlements, assimilated themselves at all to the manners of the Europeans ? — With the exception of Calcutta, perhaps, and one or two other of the larger cities, certainly not ; and even in those, more I should apprehend from a desire to please the European gentlemen than from any real predilection for their manners. Can you state whether in Calcutta, and in those places to which you refer, such an assimilation has been general, or confined to a few persons? —Confined to a very small proportion of the inhabitants. Have those Indians been persons of rank and wealth ? — They have been of that description of persons. Can you state in what particulars those Indians have conformed to the manners or fashions of Europeans ? — Principally, I believe, in the furni- ture of their houses. Have EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. S9 Have they conformed to European manners, in their dress, their table. Win. Coirpci\ or anv other article of their living, besides the furniture of their houses ? Esq. — Not to my knowledge, except in a very few instances, where the su- v — — v — * perior class may occasionally have made a practice of receiving and enter- taining the gentlemen of the settlement. Have those persons been Hindoos or Mahometans? — Both the one and the other j but in Calcutta I mean to speak principally of the Hindoos. The instances of furniture being very few, and the instances of con- formity to European manners being very rare, is it likely that, if there was a genera! open trade to that part of the world, there would be, from those causes, any considerable demand for European manufactures ? — I should think not. Had you any opportunity of observing in what manner the wealthy natives, Indians, applied their superfluous wealth ? — Certainly not in the purchase of European articles ; of course they employed their superfluous wealth in the same manner as the higher ranks of people in other coun- tries, on their pleasures, their state and ostentation ; often vast sums are squandered by them in the obsequies of their relations ; on the death of a mother particularly, a man has been known to consume his whole patri- mony, though in every other respect sordid and a miser. Have you, from your knowledge of India at the time you resided there, the means of being able to state, what the probable political effects of an open trade and free intercourse, in point of commerce, between Great Britain and India, would be ? — The political effects arising from such an influx as the question supposes, would ultimately, I conceive, be danger- ous to our dominion there. In what manner would it endanger our dominion there ? — I apprehend that the introduction of such multitudes of Europeans into the interior, would be productive of everlasting quarrels and dissensions between the new adventurers and the natives, which in the end mi"ht goad and exas- perate the latter into resistance against their oppressors. Would that intercourse of Europeans to the ports to which the trade would be carried, without their penetrating to the interior of the country, be attended with proportionable evil r — I should think very great embar- rassments might arise to the local governments in India from such an intercourse with such ports, as it would tend to involve those local govern- ments 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ll'm.Coxoper, ments in disputes with the native powers. I suppose the question ta Esq. relate to the intercourse between Bengal and the eastern peninsula. —y- The question relates to the intercourse between Great Britain and the coasts of India, the Malabar and Coromandel coasts ? — Does the question intend our own possession on those coasts, or refer to an influx of Euro- peans into that part of the coast which may yet belong to the native powers. Both to our own possessions and to others ? — I should apprehend that it would have the same tendency with respect to those in possession of native powers, that of embroiling the local governments in India with those powers ; nothing can be more jealous than those powers are in their intercourse with us. Is the conduct of Europeans, without any intention of offence towards the natives, likely, from the great difference of their manners and habits, to be offensive to the native Indians ? — Certainly they might become offensive, from the ignorance of the European ; in his intercourse with the natives, he might give offence ignorantly in a thousand ways. Have you had any occasion to consider how far it would be possible, by regulations, to prevent the evil consequences which would be the result of that influx of Europeans that is apprehended ? — I think it would be extremely difficult to form any regulations that would be efficient to this purpose ; I do not mean to say that it is absolutely impossible to frame Such. Do any regulations occur to you, that could tend towards producing this end ? — Certainly not ; standing at this bar, it would be impossible for me to stale any such regulations. Do you conceive that the present existing regulations would at all answer the purpose* — Such an immense change may have taken place, since I lei t India, in those regulations, it is impossible for me to say how far they are or are not applicable: the honourable Committee will recol- lect that I have stated to them, it is now nearly thirteen years since I left that country. Are you acquainted, or were you acquainted at the time you were in India, with the extent, in number of miles, of the police districts in the provinces with which you were connected ? — The extent varied in every separate EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 41 separate district : I speak only from memory ; I do not exactly understand Wm. Cowper, what is intended by the question. Esq. The district referred to is a district under a magistrate, supported by a police establishment? — I really cannot at this distance ot time state the extent ; I believe it was regulated by some fixed standard of twenty, thirty, or forty miles ; but it is impossible for me at this distance of time to state any thing accurately on this subject. Were the police establishments in general calculated, in point of strength and force, to keep in order such a state of population as might arise from the apprehended influx of Europeans r — I should think not at that time, I know not to what extent they may have been augmented since 1 left Bengal. Did not that police force consist of native troops ? — It consisted at different times of different descriptions of police officers ; the system, while I was in Bengal, had been often changed ; of course it was ren- dered as efficient as the means of the government would permit. Did it not consist of an irregular native undisciplined force ? — I have already said there were various modes in which the police was constituted at various times ; I believe at one time it consisted in the description of persons mentioned in the question ; it did so at the time I left Bengal, as- well as I recollect. (Examined by the Committee.) Would the habits, prejudices, and customs of the individual Hindoos, which you consider the great obstacle to their becoming great consumers of European commodities, be materially changed by the conversion of those individuals to the Christian religion ? — I really cannot give any opinion; I can form no judgment whatever, what might be the effect of such conversion. What is your opinion with respect to. the moral character of the Hindoos ? . — I think it is at least upon the level with the character of other nations I have been acquainted with. What, in your opinion, would be the political effect of the proposed Church establishment for India ? — I suppose the question refers to the introduction of a bishop and archdeacons : Had that question been put G to 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE tym. Coxcper, to me two days ago, I should probably have answered it by saying, that Esq. provided the utmost care was observed in the selection of a proper person ^-^y. _-» for that situation, and that it was expressly understood that the appoint- ment was intended to support the dignity of our own Church, and there was no intention to interfere in any form with the religion of the natives, I could see none, or very little objection to it ; but some publications which I have seen in the public papers of to day and yesterday, have altered my opinion upon that subject entirely ; I am now very apprehensive that such an appointment might be liable to great misconstruction, as it is highly probable the natives of that country would couple such an appointment with the sentiments and resolutions expressed in the papers to which I allude. If the Committee will give me leave, I will state the particulars to which I refer : In the Morning Post of this day, I find the following advertisement or notification : " At a very numerous meeting of persons " friendly to the religious instruction, moral improvement, and civilization " of the inhabitants of our Indian empire, held at the City of London " Tavern, on Monday the 29th instant, the Right Honourable Lord " Gambier in the Chair," I find the following Resolution : " That there " are more than fifty millions of inhabitants subject to the British empire " in India, under the influence of inhuman and degrading superstitions, " which form an effectual bar to their progress in civilization." I take it for granted that in a very short space of time, this advertisement, with comments upon it, will find its way into every province under our authority ; should this happen, it is easy to foresee what must be the effect of it. 1 am decidedly of opinion that the first Resolution I have now read to the Committee, would have the effect of exciting a general ferment among the Hindoos ; and I am very apprehensive they would couple the sen- timents expressed in this Resolution, with the appointment of the new ecclesiastical establishment, and they would infer that the former was in- - tended in aid of the latter. "What is your opinion of the probable success of any attempt that may be made by this country for the conversion of the Hindoos, whether by missionaries, orany other means ? — Supposing that such missionaries came into the country as they have hitherto done., without any authority or support from government, I am of opinion that they would make no converts, and do no mischief ; but, on die other hand, if they were sent to India under the authority of the government here^ professedly to assist in converting the natives to Christianity, . I have no doubt that the utmost danger to our dominion there would be the consequence. In your opinion, would they be likely to make any progress to that conversion ? EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIBS. 43 conversion? — Very little, I should apprehend; and I believe that any such Waf. Couper, attempt, or the least idea of any attempt, under authority, to convert the Esq. natives, would be followed by our expulsion from Bengal, and from all our v possessions in India. What reason have you to suppose that the advertisement, to which you have just referred, will be circulated throughput India ? — Of course hundreds of these newspapers will go out with the first ship that sails ; and as there are many natives who were very conversant in the English language, even before I left the country, I should apprehend now that numbers of them converse in that language, and read it as well as ourselves; of course nothing more alarming to the whole class ot Hindoos could possibly occur, than the contents of the advertisement to which I am speaking. Very many of the persons I have already described are Brahmins. As you have been long resident in India, and must know very well that there have been many Christian missionaries in that country, have you been in the habit of paying attention to their proceedings at all during your residence there ? — When I was in India, the missionaries were very tew indeed ; I recollect only one in the vicinity of Calcutta. I believe there were others at the Danish settlement ; I can mention one by name, with whom I had no personal acquaintance, a Mr. Kiernander. Do you know that any evil consequences have ever originated from any proceedings of missionaries in India ? — Certainly not ; nor would any ever arise, in my opinion, provided, as I have already stated, the influence of government was not employed in aid of them, or to countenance them in their objects of converting the natives. Do you know that any converts have been made in India to the Christian religion ? — I do not, I could not state a single instance. You have not been in the habit of applying your attention at all to that subject I — I have not particularly applied my attention to it, but I think I must have heard if there had been any number of the natives sc* converted. Do you not know that there are upwards of 200,000 Christians in India ? — I do not know that fact, I have heard of it in publications that have come out since my return to England, and I have read of such G 2 conversions- 4* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Win. Confer, conversions in former French publications, but I cannot vouch for their Esq. authenticity in any particular case. ■V Did you ever hear of that circumstance, when you were yourself in India? — When I said I had heard of it in publications since I returned from India, I allude to the publication of Dr. Buchanan ; I have not read that work myself, but I understand it is so stated in that book, that there are that number, or a great number of Christians ; 1 had before, during my residence in India, read a French publication, entitled, Letlres Ed{fiantes, and in them there is certainly a long account of converts made in the Tanjore country, and I believe on the island of Ceylon; but I speak from memory only, at the distance of at least five and twenty years. Do you understand that the advertisement to which you have referred, proposes or implies any thing in the nature of compulsion, either on the part of government, or on the part of individuals, in proposing the Christian religion to the natives of India ? — I think certainly it would be so construed, not on the part of government, but on the part of individuals. Will you state what individuals you allude to ? — The persons who formed those resolutions. Do you then understand, that the persons in this country forming these resolutions, could have any compulsory power in India? — I do not say that they would ; but I say, the construction which the natives would put upon this advertisement, backed as it would be by the great alteration about to take place in the ecclesiastical establishment, might be construed by the natives into a design on the part of government to interfere relatively to their religion, and to give their support to the suggestions of this paper, wherein it is stated, that such and such measures would be highly expe- dient. I wish to read the paper. [It was read as follows :] " At a very numerous meeting of persons friendly to the reli- " gious instruction, moral improvement, and civilization of the " inhabitants of our Indian empire, held at the City of London " Tavern on Monday the 29th instant, — The Right Hon. Lord " Gambier in the Chair ; — The following resolutions were unani- ■" mously adopted. " 1st. EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. " 1st. That there are more than 50 millions of inhabitants jy m Ccvjicr " subject to the British empire in India, under the influence of " inhuman and degrading superstitions, which form an effectual " bar tc their progress in civilization. " 2d. That it appears to this meeting, that the only remedy " which can be successfully applied to this enormous evil, is to ■* diffuse through this portion of our fellow-subjects the blessings " of Christian knowledge, and of moral, social, and domestic " improvement. " 3d. That this meeting does therefore most cordially concur in " the Resolutions expressed by the honourable House of Com- " mons in the year 1793:— -(" That it is the peculiar and bounden " duty of the Legislature to promote, by all just and prudent v — _^^„^ and then the answer which I would propose to substitute for it. The question proposed to me was, " Has not your Lordship heard that one of " the chief causes of the mutiny at Vellore, in which a British regiment " was massacred, was an opinion of that kind, that is of an intention to " force the Christian religion upon the natives?" The answer which I gave was, "■! certainly did see it asserted in print in this country; but " I took some pains to clear up that point, and cleared it up completely H "to 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mt. Hon. Lord " to my own satisfaction, that the assertion was totally without foun* Teignmoulk. " dation. I wouJd beg legrve to mention, that my opinion upon the sub- ' - v ' "■ ject is in print, in a pamphlet that does not bear my na.ne, but was " very well known to be written by myself, entitled, ' Considerations on " ' the Practicability, Policy, and Obligation of communicating the " ' Knowledge of Christianity to the Natives of India.' I reter to that " pamphlet, as containing an answer to the question put to me." The explanation I would wish to give upon the point is this : " That I did hear that an intention, imputed to the English government, of forcing Christianity upon the native troops, was the cause of the mutiny at Vel- lore ; that it had been so explained by some designing persons to the troops; and that, being at the same time coupled with a public order, from which it derived weight and plausibility, it had had an effect in producing that mutiny. I can explain to the Committee, if they will allow me, the cause of the mistake ; my recollection was carried back to that pamphlet to which I referred, in which I had endeavoured to refute an opinion, that the great increase of missionaries on the coast of Coro- mandel, with the publication of the Scriptures and other tracts, have been a concurrent cause in producing the mutiny at Vellore; but my recollection not being clear on the subject, I transferred the refutation to the other part of the argument, instead of confining it to that which I have now stated." Does your Lordship think it would be advisable to allow persons to take upon them the character of preachers and teachers of Christianity in India, without some previous examination as to their fitness for the under- taking, in respect to religious knowledge and discretion ? — I think they should not be allowed, without testimonies to their fitness for the bu- siness. Will your Lordship have the goodness to state from what quarter those testimonies should be granted, as to that fitness in religious knowledge and discretion ? — That is a question I am not prepared to answer. Does your Lordship think that any qualification could justify sending preachers to preach the Christian religion in that country ; that it could be done with safety to the government of the country ? — Certainly I do ; I think upon that subject I may appeal to experience ; there have been mis- sionaries now in Bengal, from this country, seventeen years ; they have circulated among the natives various copies of the Scriptures in the dialects of India, with many other pamphlets j and I have not heard that any thing EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS 51 thing that they have done has been the cause of alarm among the natives Rt. Hon. Lord in India. Teignmouth. [His Lordship withdrew. * , ~* The Chairman was directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. Jovis, 1° die Aprilis 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. WILLIAM COWPER, Esq. was again called in. Mr. Cowpf.r. — I am extremely apprehensive, lest, in discussing the Wm.Cowper, subject of those Resolutions which I had occasion to cite yesterday, any Esq. ex iressions that may have escaped me, may by possible construction be i ^ » interpreted into an intention to impeach the motives of the gentlemen who framed those resolutions ; on the contrary, I am satisfied that one and all of the most respectable gentlemen whose names were signed to that paper, were actuated by the purest spirit of benevolence; and that they were under the strongest conviction that the greatest blessings would result from their exertions. [The last question and answer, in the Minutes of yesterday, were read over to the Witness.] Mr. Cowpkr.— I particularly alluded to the mutiny, among the native troops at Vellore, originating, as was very generally believed, in some orders or military regulations forbidding the sepoys when under arms or on duty to make use of their distinctive marks of cast. This mutiny, as well as the cause assigned for it, whether true or false, must have been public in the Carnatic, over the Coromandel cast, in Bengal, and indeed through- cut India ; in point of time, this deplorable event is too recent to allow a hope that it can have been forgotten, or the impression obliterated which it was calculated to produce among all ranks of the Hindoo persuasion. H 2 You 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE TVm. Cowper, You entertain the apprehension rather from what passed in the Car- Esq. natic and in Vellore, than from any thing you have yourself seen or ex- perienced in Bengal, where your residence was ? — Certainly ; it is only the event that I have mentioned, that I am apprehensive would operate in the way I have had the honour to state last night. From all my own experience of the natives of that country, I am persuaded that nothing is so likely to produce even the expulsion of the English from India, as any interference with their religious tenets : I could cite instances of per- sons, whenever the subject of religion has come into question, losing all that respect and deference which at all other times marks their demeanour with respect to their superiors in India. Would it be agreeable to you to specify one or two of those instances ? — I will: it happened to myself to be conversing with a Mussulman na- tive, who held a high situation in the Nizamut Adawlut ; in the course of conversation, some unguarded expressions unfortunately escaped me, which he misinterpreted into some disrespect to his prophet ; instantly his eyes glared, his countenance altered in the most extraordinary manner, and he looked at me with an aspect so ferocious, and indeed was so visi- .bly agitated by passion, that I am convinced, unless I had immediately en- deavoured, by soothing expressions and an acknowledgment that the offensive words had undoubtedly escaped me, I have hardly a doubt that he would, had he had a weapon, have employed it against me ; this per- son was a learned Mussulman gentleman; circumstances had occurred, which had enabled me to be instrumental in his elevation to his situation which he at that time possessed, and which was in fact one of the highest stations that, latterly, our government had it in its power to confer upon that class of natives; but neither the recollection of this, nor any other consideration, the moment there was any question of disre-pect to his prophet, seemed to operate upon him. I mean to infer from this, that there is almost equal danger of giving offence, in matters of religion, to Mussulmen and Hindoos. I cannot now specify any number of instances, but, trom all my intercourse with them, I know they will greatly bear and forbear; their endurance is without limit almost, where the government and governors of the country are concerned ; but if once it was to enter the imagination, either of Mussulman or Hindoo, that there was any design or intention to interfere with the exercise of their religion, as I have already stated over and over again to the Com- mittee, I am satisfied there is no extreme to which either class might not be driven. Can you state any instance of an Hindoo ? — A person in my own em- ploy, EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 53 ploy, for a great length of years, a Bramin of a very high cast was used Wm. CoWpir, to talk with me, and with everybody, on the subjects of his own religious fc^q. persuasion. He was always in extreme good humour as long as I seemed to acquiesce in all the points that he thought proper to state to me ; but whenever it happened, as it did sometimes, that I grew weary, and took an opportunity to point out some inconsistency or absurdity, as either might strike me, in the mere trifling rites and ceremonies which ir was his custom to talk upon, I can hardly state in too strong terms the v. ay in which this operated upon him ; it seemed to harrass and afflict him to the greatest degree. These appear to be instances of direct insult or disrespect to these religions; do you conceive that a simple proposition of the principles of Christianity, by a missionary, without any power or any influence trom government, or any sort of disrespect to those religions, simply proposing the doctrines of Christianity, would be likely to be attended with those effects ? — As 1 recollect, 1 have also had the honour to state to the Com- mittee, in the course of my evidence last night, that a missionary, or any number of missionaries, described as the honourable member has now described it, utterly unconnected with any of the ruling powers, would be a perfectly harmless being ; but supposing these propositions to be so made under the sanction of government, in any form, the case would entirely be altered. It would be very difficult to make an Hindoo understand that a recommendation was not imperative upon him, inas- much as in that country, as far as I am acquainted With it, whatever emanates from the ruler is considered by them as imperative ; an ex- pression of the most distant recommendation, on the part of persons in power, is received by the Hindoos and the Mussulmen as a kind of order. Was the Resolution passed by this House in 1793, relative to the con- version of the native Indians, ever publicly known in India ? — It was not; and I now understand that it never received the sanction of go- vernment; a circumstance of which I was not apprised yesterday. Do you believe that the contents of any act of Parliament to be now passed for the renewal of the Company's Charter, or for the administration of the affairs of India, are likely to attract the attention of the natives of India, living under the British government ? — Most undoubtedly. Do ycu believe that fears and alarm and discontent are likely to be occasioned in the minds of our native subjects in India, by any expressions or 54 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Wm. Cowper, or provisions in such Act of Parliament, which should indicate an intery- Esq. tion on the part of the British government to attempt their conversion to v ~- v « ,; Christianity, or to encourage such attempts ? — 1 think that the greatest alarm would be created in the minds of the natives of India, in the case specified by that question ; 1 should even apprehend, that the very greatest danger would arise from any intention so formally expressed in aa Act of the legislature, even to the endangering of our empire at no very remote period. Do you think that such feelings in our native subjects would be suffi- ciently guarded against, by the insertion, in such Act, of a disavowal on the part of the British government to use force or compulsion for the jr purpose of such conversion ? — Certainly not. Do you think that any alarm or discontent would be excited among our native subjects in India, by the addition of a few dignitaries to our own church government, if such addition were stated in the Act of Parliament to be necessary to supply the spiritual wants of our own European servants in that territory? — I say, certainly not ; but, I believe, in the course of my evidence yesterday, I have already answered that question. Are not subjects connected with the religion and religious customs of the natives ot India, freely discussed in the colleg' in India ; and are not the following topics propounded and discussed by the students in that college, namely, " the Asiatics are capable of as high -a degree of civi- lization as the Europeans; the suicide of Hindoo women, by burning themselves with the bodies of their deceased husbands, is a practice repugnant to the natural feelings, and inconsistent with moral duty; the distribution of Hindoos, in the casts, retards their moral improvement?"— I think the college had not been instituted above a year previous to my leaving India ; 1 cannot certainly undertake to answer, that those were the subjects propounded for discussion by the professors of the college ; I cannot answer that question of my own knowledge ; I never was at any examination of the students, neither had I the honour to accompany the visitor at any of the disputations that took place. If such subjects were the subjects of disputation publicly in the presence of the moulavies and pundits, the learned men of India, would not you infer considerable danger to our establishments in India ?— I should. As you have stated that an observation made by you to a Mahometan, EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 55 of rank was received by him with such indignation, what effect do you Win. C Wr suppose that an observation of this kind, made in the presence ot persons Es cf rank ?nd character and learning, in India, would produce; " Nume- v Y ' • rous indeed are the advantages to be derived from the ardent,, diligent and unremitting toils of well-informed and zealous missionaries, impressed by the deepest sense of duty, and eager to diffuse the divine light of Revela- tion ; may we not expect to see this night of more than Egyptian darkness succeeded by the cloud-dispelling dawn of Christianity; and may we not hope to see these ignorant and deluded people learning justice from its law and mercy from its gospel ?"— I should think a very dangerous one v In a former part of your evidence, you have stated that the Resolutions passed at a meeting in this Metropolis, were calculated to produce the most dangerous effects j which of the two declarations, that which has now been stated to you, or the resolutions which were published by the meeting referred to, was calculated to produce the greatest injury ? — I should think that there would be very great danger in both. Do you know, in point of fact, that the natives of India pay any atten- tion whatever to any proceedings in this country ? — I really cannot arawer what degree of attention they may pay at this present time, as it is more than thirteen years since I left that country. Do they read the papers either of this country or of India, the English papers ? — I dare say they do, many of them inhabiting Calcutta. Do you know it as a fact ? — I do not know it as a fact ; but very many of them, from their knowledge of the English language, are very com- petent to read them. v Were not the questions alluded to, stated to be propounded to the college in Fort William, suppressed by the order of the governor general of that day, in consequence of the irritation they were likely to produce ? —I have said I am totally ignorant that any such questions were ever agitated at all ; I have given my opinion what would be the event, had they been so agitated ; it is my simple opinion, valeat. quantum valere potest. You have been asked, whether you thought there would be a consider- able consumption of British manufactures by the population of India, to which you answered, you thought very small ; can you form an opinion what proportion of the fifty millions of native subjects there would be of that 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Win. Cozvper, that native population, that would have the means of purchasing articles k»q. of British produce and manufacture, supposing the prices ot the same **- v~ — — ' reduced to the lowest possible rate ? — I have no idea ot any consumption. of such articles, beyond what is already imported into India by the Company's ships ; but I am extremely ignorant upon that subject, never ha\ irig, from my first going to India, held any situation with the smallest reference to commerce. I am not ashamed to say, that I really could not state what is the investment of one of the Company's ships, what the commodities are which they import; but this I know, that a few mirrors and lustres, a few covered carriages, are taken off by the natives, and those, as I have already stated, chiefly for the purpose of being enabled to entertain the British inhabitants and their friends, at particular times of the year during their festivals, in a way that they imagine we are used to, and thinking perhaps that unless so accommodated we should not be well pleased. You will not take upon you to give any opinion as to what proportion of that population, whether one in a hundred or a thousand, or two thousand, would have the means of purchasing those articles ? — I think it is beyond all calculation the smallest of the comparative numbers on the aggregate of fifty millions, I should imagine not one in two thousand. In the fourth Report there is an account of the free merchants having formed establishments to carry on their trade ; and that remonstrances of the strongest nature had been preferred to the government in India, and the government at home, -of the restrictions and counteractions which those merchants meet with in carrying on their trade, to the degree, as they assert, that all the advantages expected to be derived, would be counteracted ; and that, instead of the free merchants being able to promote the trade and revenue of this country to an unbounded degree, they were completely stopped ; and carrying their opinion so far as to propose, that instead of those restrictions, the Company should give up their commerce entirely, and it should be brought into the hands of the free merchants, who would bring home the commodities with greater advantage; and that the Company should satisfy themselves with remitting through them their territorial rents, if, according to the Petitions on the table, free scope is given to the enterprize and commerce of the British merchants to push it to its farthest possible extent, and of course to make settlements in different parts of the country j what would, in your opinion, be the consequence, if the East-India Company are allowed to carry on any trade, as to the disputes and counteractions that may arise?— I apprehend that question goes to the unrestricted intercourse of the British EAST-lNt)IA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS; 57 British merchants vtrfth India, and I have already, as I recollect, stated Wv?. Cozoper, what would be the inconveniencies of such an unrestricted intercourse. What difficulties do you imagine would occur, should any misunder- standing ajrise bccween them and the natives, in distant place's from the seat of govern mi; 1 m ?— All the difficulties which I have already Mat :!. ©rie great source of contusion would arise undoubtedly from the Euo- peans extending the,. rselves without any restriction over the face of that vast dominion ; for, recording to our law, in all cases where criminal acts are committed, it is necessary that the offending party, being an Euro- pean, should be sent down to Calcutta for trial in the supreme court : it must happen, supposing this unrestricted intercourse were permitted, that vast numbers, it any great advantage is to be derived from the plan which the British me: chants are so eager to carry into effect, would Arid them- selves in this predicament ; many Europeans would have to travel the distance of about 800 or 1000 miles, under the guard' of two or three or half a dozen of the common police officers ; this alone would be a most fruitful source of degradation to the English character in Ind.a. Supposing any misunderstanding to arise between the British residing there under legislative enactment, and the natives, how far do you think that the English resident there would or not be easily controuled by the magistrate of that distant place ? — It would depend in a great measure upon the number of Europeans in any one district. The question supposes the British merchant sends his agent there, and forms an establishment to carry on a business there ; supposing they should have a misunderstanding with the natives, how far, with the enact- ment in his hands-, allowing him to have free scope for his enterprise and commerce, would the magistrate have the means of settling that dispute ? — It might so happen, supposing the plan now in agnation to have full effect, and to answer expectation, a thousand Europeans might be found within a small extent of country, they might out-number tenfold all the force the Company could bring against them in the form of police, unless their police were so large as would consume their whole revenue ■ but I cannot possibly suppose such an occurrence would happen, I do not sup- pose that such an enormous influx of adventurers is likely to take place; the inconvenience of restraining them would always be in proportion to the numbers. Can you give the Committee any information concerning a nat'on called the SykesorScheiks,in the north-west of India? — I really neve! had any I. opportunity, — y— 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Win. Cowper, opportunity, except in books which are in every body's possession, of Esq. learning any thing about them, v - v f Is it understood that their religious tenets arc the same with those of the Hindoos ? — I believe there is a very considerable difference ; in a con- versation once with Mr. Wilkins, who is a person very well informed on the subject, he did state some differences, and I think some considerable ones ; but that is twenty-five years ago, and I cannot state the difference : I believe there is a tract written by General Malcolm on that subject, which would give the fullest information as to their rites and ceremonies and customs. Can you give any information concerning the Syrian Christians in the peninsula of India? — I cannot. Can you give any idea of- their numbers? — I have no idea of their numbers. Can you state the number of the Roman Catholic Christians in that country ? — Only by report ; on the coast of Malabar, there are, as I have understood, a very considerable number ; but I have also understood they are in the most degraded state. In what you stated concerning the moral character of the Hindoos- being pretty much the same as that of the nations in general, did you mean to apply that to their veracity or good faith, as well as their other moral qualities ? — I really, as far as I communicated with them, am very much inclined to think that their moral qualities are very much upon a level with those of the inferior classes of people it has fallen in my lot to. know of other nations. Are you informed that there is a society in this metropolis, called the society for promoting Christian knowledge, of which the Archbishops and Bishops, and hundreds of the dignified clergy, are members ? — I do not know of my own knowledge, certainly, that there is any such institution. Have not you heard that such a society, constituted as stated in the question, has existed in this metropolis for a hundred years past ? — It may have existed, and I have heard that there are many institutions under different names, whose object it is to promote the Christian religion ; but with respect to the specific appellation I am not informed. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 59 Do not you know that the society mentioned for promoting Christian Wm.Coxoper, knowledge, has sent missionaries to India, and supported them there for *aq. nearlv a hundred years past ?— I do not know exactly ; I certainly could *— not state from my own knowledge, what particular institution it was which enabled the few missionaries I have ever heard of or known in India, to go there for the purpose of propagating the Christian religion. Did you ever hear of a very eminent missionary of the name of Swartz/ in India ? — I have ; a most respectable person, universally respected and beloved j he was at Madras; but I had no personal ac- quaintance with him, nor ever saw him. Have you ever been informed of the services which he rendered to the English government there, and to the natives of the country ; and what was the nature of those services?— I know that this gentleman was at- tached to the court of Tanjore ; and I have heard (I know nothing but on report, for I never was but once at Madras, and then only for a tew days) that he was respected by all ranks of people ; that he was a great favourite, and had a very great influence over the rajah ot that country ; but whether he ever had an opportunity ot making any converts rrom among the natives I really cannot state. Do not you know that the rajah of Tanjore was extremely desirous of making him the guardian of his son, at his death ?-l think I do recollect that circumstance ; I believe it occurred while 1 was in council at Cal- cutta ; I recollect that some such proposition came to the governor gene- ral • but I speak merely from memory at this distance of time. It any such proposition was made on the pari of the rajah of Tanjore, .tivoud appear upon the records of the Company, either at Madras or Bengal ; but as far as I can recollect, there was such a proposition. Do not you know that an application was made by the rajah of Tanjore, after Mr. Swartz's death, to Mr. Swartz's friends in England, to de- sire that they would send out a monument, to be erected tor Mr. Swartz's memory, in Tanjore ? — I have no knowledge of that tact whatever; I cannot charge my memory with having heard it. Do not you know that the congregations of Christians, to whom Mr. Swartz and Mr. Gericke constantly preached in Tanjore, amounted to some thousands of persons r— I have no knowledge of that fact, nor did I ever hear the name of Mr. Gericke before. I 2 You go WMF 0F ^vid^nce .ON TO? JJ'm. Corcpcr, You have stated, that many of the Hindoos .are .well acquaint, .d -\|' ; t!r ' Esq. the Ensrhsh language ; do you think it might wot tend tQ the improvement of tli j i I'u.doa-, a.iv! to their .civilization, it schools were es.tabl.-hvd in different parts of India, for the nurpos: of reaching the native children th- English language ? — I certr.hn'y think that the institution would be 3 very good one but I very much doubt whether yon would be abie to pre- vail upon them to send their children, unless the persons instructing them were of their own persuasion ; I should imagine, Iqng before this period, there ir.u>t he a vast number of persons, in -jCaleiijtta at least, eyen among the brahmins, who possess a veiy accurate knowledge of the Ja_rtg.ua <*e^ both as to speaking it and reading it : before } left Jjengah I met yyitjj several persons who could converse very Familiarly in English, and I under- stood at that time there were seminaries, to .v>hcch the children pf a great number of the Hindoos paitj.culaiJy were sent for education ; and I con- ceive, that being many years ago, the same plan probably having hegn pursued, that description of persons rj;ust now be very in^cb multiplied. During your residence in Calcutta, has it not come to your knowledge that whole investments, of masters and officers of Jr)dia,.men, have been spld considerably under prime cost ? — I cannot, answer that question affir- matively on my own knowledge, though most undoubtedly I have heard that a great proportion ot that description of persons have, during my residence in India, been absolutely ruined from the impossibility ot dispo- sing of their cargoes at all in Calcutta, and have been obliged to send them to auction, and of course to sell them very much under the prime cost • but I cannot specify any particular instance, at this distance of time. If there had been any possibility of finding a sale in any part of India for those commodities, are there not merchants, both European and natives, who would have been ready to have purchased those goods, and to transport them to other places ? — Most undoubtedly. [The Witness withdrew. THOMAS GRAHAM, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Thos. Graham flf r - Jdckso7i.~\ — How long have you been in the service of the East- E sq# ' India Company ? — I was in the service of the East-India Company from - the year 1769 to 1806. y~ In gAST-INPJA COMPANY'S AFFAIA3. >ut eight months, and in the government of Lord Wellesley tor about eight months. J^ave you had ample opportunities of studying the character of the §atiYe Indians ?t-t-No doubt. Are their habits and prejudices, generally speaking, of a fixed and unchangeable nature ?T-rCertakily they are. Will you give some general description of the character of the natives ; a^re they persons of quick sensibility with respect to those habits and. prejudices rV-rTney are no doubt of very quick sensibility. Are they peculiarly susceptible of affront with respect to their religious prejudices ?-r^ynquestionably. Are they persons who are impatient of opposition with regard to their religious superstitions ? — Most undoubtedly. Are they quick and jealous of affront with respect to their women ?— r They are so. Is the Company's authority at present of that strict nature, that, generally speaking, it preserves them from such affront with regard to the conduct of their servants ? — It certainly is. Supposing a considerable influx of Europeans, in consequence of an open trade from every port in this kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, would you apprehend any consequence to happen from such influx towards the natives? — I think a promiscuous interLourse of Europeans with the natives of India might lead to the most mischievous consequences. Describe the sort of consequence you apprehend ? — I apprehend that they would, in their com -non pursuits, interfere with their religious prejudices in a manner that would cause commotion. Supposing 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE 'Thos. Graham, Supposing the trade to India to be opened in the manner described, Esq. would it not be necessary for the new adventurers to have houses and v^-__»y- — — i warehouses, and other means of settlement ? — I apprehend it would be absolutely necessary, unless they were to employ those agents, although established at the Company's settlements. If unlimited intercourse was allowed with every port in India, would they be inclined to transact their own concerns r — They might endeavour to transact their own concerns, but I do not think that they would be successful, inasmuch as, having no agents, nor finding any agents at those places previously established, they would not be able to purchase any articles of commerce. Are there not many of the ports, on either coast of the peninsula, at a great distance from the principal seats of government ? — A great many. Do you apprehend that any material influx of new settlers could be kept (either with regard to their conduct, or emigration into the interior, or intrigue with persons living in the interior) in sufficiently strict controul and coercion to prevent such consequences ? — I conceive it would be ex- ceedingly difficult to prevent them from improper interference in the affairs of the country. Supposing them to have this licence of going to every port in India according to their discretion, do you think they could be kept from getting into the interior of the country, if such were their object ? — Unless restrictions were to be imposed upon them previously to their going to India, I do not think that they could. To what kind of restrictions do you allude ? — Without the permission of the existing government in India. Do you think, with this general license of visiting every port, that it would not be in their power to elude such authority, if they were so dis- posed ?— I have no doubt they might. Supposing them to succeed in thus eluding the authority of government, and getting into the interior, what are the consequences which you would apprehend to result therefrom ? — That they would get into personal quarrels with the natives, which might be productive of general in- surrection. Supposing EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, 63 Supposing a native to be treated with violence or oppression by an Thos . Graham European, can they prosecute an European but in one of the three principal Esq. courts ? — They cannot a British subject. \ v / Are not some of the inland settlements several hundred miles from either of the supreme courts ? — Some of them as far as 1000 miles. Looking at the general circumstances of the natives, with whatever degree of violence or oppression they might be treated, would it be in their power so to prosecute; could they afford it ? — They could have no other means of prosecuting but by proceeding to the principal stations where the courts of judicature were established, and that they would be obliged to do at a very heavy expense and inconvenience to themselves and families.. From their general situations in life, are they persons who by any pos» sibility could afford such expense ? — Most probably they are hot. Supposing them, from the want of capacity or other cause, to be thus disappointed of obtaining legal redress, what do you apprehend might be the consequence ? — That they would revenge themselves upon the indivi- dual who had been the cause of the offence. Supposing redress to be practicable, and the punishment of the Euro- pean the consequence, what do you apprehend with rtgard to the European character, in the estimation of the natives, should such pu- nishments frequently take place ? — I think it would tend very much to degrade their character, and take from the respect which they have been hitherto held in. Do you apprehend the maintenance of that respect essential to the maintenance of the British authority in India? — I think it most im- portant.. If any material number of those new settlers were to misconduct them- selves, do you think that the government could with any degree of con- venience send them home, a measure now resorted to but in extreme cases? — I think it would be extremely incommodious tor. the government to exercise that authority over such persons, inasmuch as they might be liable hereafter to be called upon to answer for their conduct in this »ountry. It 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON TIIB 'T'/of. Graham, If such persons were expelled from the British territories in Iniia, what Esq. do von apprehend might be the consequence ? — The consequence would 1 v ' be ruin to themselves I apprehend. Do you think that they might find employ, or secret or open 1 encourage- ment in any degree, from the native chiefs ?-— If they were to get into \h6 courts of any of the remaining native chiefs, I think it very piobable that they might intrigue with them, to the prejudice of the public interest. Do you think, with this universal licence of visiting India, that British subjects might not find their way to the courts of the nati\e chiefs, if such were their object ?— I conceive they might. Concluding upon the trade to India being opened from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company!s Charter, and looking to all the circumstances which you are able to judgie of from your experience, do you think that so opening, the trade is consistent with the safety of the British empire in India ? — I think the promiscuous inter- course that it would create might be the means of ultimately shaking the empire in India. Looking to the general habits of the natives, as well as to the degree of export that has for many years past existed, and now exists, do you think that thus opening the trade to India would increase the consumption of European articles among the natives of India? — I do not think it would. Have the natives at present, the great mass of them, the power of pur- chasing European articles, were they so disposed ? Certainly tiny have not ; because such articles as they want for their own use, they can manu- facture at a cheaper rate. State those articles which they most require for their enjoyment at pre- sent ? — For clothing, they use the common muslins; and there are no other articles which at all associate with the description of European clothing, that they are at all in want of, or use. Do they clothe principally with cotton ? — Entirely j I may say it is their common wear. Can you state at about how much per yard they purchase that cotton ?— Such as is worn by the common people they get at a very cheap rate indeed; EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 65 indeed ; I cannot charge my memory with the price of it, but a family, or Thos. Graham, an individual of a family, can supply himself for a whole twelvemonth's Esq, consumption at the cost of a couple of shillings, comparatively speaking, I -y l What other article do they requirefor their domestic convenience, besides such clothing, as to furniture or other articles of domestic convenience ? — Furniture they use none ; their principal place of rest is on the ground, and they eat their victuals from an earthen platter, which they buy, I sup- pose, for not the value of half a farthing. To what proportion of the population do you apply this remark ? — The proportion, I suppose, of 99 in 1UO. In cases where the natives have acquired property, do they direct its expenditure to the purchase of European articles? — Some few, resident in the principal towns, do purchase some few articles, such as looking glasses and glass ware. Do you confine this remark to the principal towns ?— I confine it to the principal towns, because I have not observed it at all common in the inte- rior of the country, even with the natives possessing wealth. Do you mean such towns as are more or less the seat of European go- vernment? — I do. Do you apply this remark to any considerable number of persons, reside where they may? — I apply it to a very great portion of the inhabitants of the interior ot the country, a very large portion. I mean the remark, as to the more wealthy purchasing European arti- cles; is the number of such considerable ? — Very few. Can you state whether such natives as have a desire for the purchase of European articles, have a full and perfect opportunity ot making such pur- chase ? — Certainly they have ; at the principal settlements of the Company they are to be found. Have you had an opportunitA r of seeing with what degree of success eaptains and officers have carried out adventures of Eur pean articles? — Of later years, I imagi most all of them must have been losers by their speculations in European commodities horn this country. K Are 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Graham, Are such persons, meaning captains and officers, subject to the charge of Esq. freight ? — I understand not, that it forms part of their emoluments. ■v Are they not their own supercargoes ? — I understand they are. Does the saving of freight, and such charge of commission, amount to a considerable proportion upon the value of the adventure ? — I apprehend it does. Do you mean to state, that notwithstanding such advantages for a con- siderable time past, the adventurers in question have been rather losers than gainers by their speculation ? — Most certainly, upon the whole, they have been losers. Have you any doubt, then, that European articles are now, and have been for a considerable time past, rather a glut than otherwise in India ? — Certainly they have been, and in many instances have sold considerably under prime cost. Have they sometimes, in order to force a sale at any rate, been obliged to resort to sales by auction, or a raffle, or other such expedients ? — The selling by auction at Calcutta now is almost the universal resort j at least at the period of time when I left it, it was. Within your observation, have European artificers and handicraftsmen began some of their respective manufactures in India ? — They certainly have. Do you think that an unlimited and unrestrained access to India might not very materially increase this disposition to manufacture in India such commodities as may be required ? — As the commodities manufactured by European artists in India are generally for the consumption of either the army or the civil service, it is not likely that it would increase beyond the demand. In proportion to whatever European demand there might be, do you apprehend such unlimited access to India might increase general manu- facture, according to that proportion ? — I apprehend that the pursuit would be entirely regulated by the demand, in as far as I could observe at the time of my leaving India, such persons as did so employ themselves were -able to meet all the demands. (Examined EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, f.Y (Examined by the Committee.) 'J'/ios. Graham, You stated the inconvenience that might arise from persons getting , *•" „.• into the interior without permission, and the danger that might arise there- v ~" from ; do you conceive any individual going into the interior among the natives, would be likely to commit any such outrage as would bring upou him what you state would probably be the case, the being murdered or torn to pieces by the natives ? — It is probable that, from ignorance, he would trespass upon some of their religious prejudices ; and the conse- quence, in all probability, would be tlv forfeiture of his own life. Do you think that if a person escaped the forfeiture of his life, he would afterwards, in consequence of any error he may have committed, of inter- fering with their religious prejudices, be a person likely to intrigue with effect with any of the native powers ? — Certainly not, as far as the Hindoo chiefs may be concerned. Can many of the Hindoos read English printing ? — Many of them, resi- dent at the principal settlements of the Company, not only can read, but they can write English, and remarkably well, some of them. Of what cast are those Hindoos? — They are of different casts; and I cannot immediately change my memory what such persons may have been of, that were so employed, but some of them of the first cast. Were such persons in the habit of seeking for English publications? — Upon my word I cannot -ay ; but they were in general very much in the habit, from curiosity, of reading English publications, particularly news- papers. While you were in India, was the press licensed? — The press had no regular license in India; the business of printing was followed as a profes- sion by those who had the means of carrying it on. Were there any other restrictions upon the liberty of the press, than those which the common law of England imposes? — I am not aware that there were any other restrictions; I have understood that there was an order of government, directing newspapers, such as were published here, to be sent for inspection to the secretary, previous to their being circulated. Do you recollect any person ever having been sent from India, home, on account of having written any thing which the government disapproved of? — K. 2 I have 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE 7'hos. Graham, I have a recollection t u at a person was sent home, but I cannot remember Esq. the name of the person. ' v Would the government have sent home any person who might have written any thing which the government might have conceived dangerous to be published in India ? — 1 conceive it would have been their duty to do so. Do you conceive such a power necessary for the tranquillity of the In- dian empire ? — I conceive that the exercise of it is essential towards the preservation of a good understanding throughout the country. Do you conceive that an unlimited communication with India by strangers might facilitate the publication of works dangerous to the tran- quillity of India? — I apprehend that such publications would depend upon the means which the persons had of printing and issuing them. Do you know whether the native princes of India are desirous of re- taining in then service Europeans bred to the military profession? — Hi- therto they have been, and I have no doubt would be at all times, desirous of having such persons in their military corps. Do you know how many officers Mons. Peron had collected in his ser- vice ? — I have no recollection as to the number, but I apprehend that may be ascertained by the returns that were made to government, at the time of the war in that part of the country. Do you know whether they might have amounted to four or five hun- dred officers ? — I cannot charge my recollection as to numbers. Do you know whether those officers, whatever number they might have been, consisted of the natives of various European countries? — They cer- tainly did. If any native power could collect a similar number of officers, would it be d. n us to the Company's possessions in India ? — I have no doubt it would, and past experience tends to show it. Do you conceive that a less restricted intercourse with India, would er.uble the native powers to obtain Europeans of the description men. tion. .., and to attach them to their service ? — It is hardly possible to an. swer -v EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 69 swer that question, unless I could know what description are likely to Thos. Graham, embark. EiC l» Do you know whether the East India Company derived any revenue from the procession of the idol Juggernaut? — They certainly did: not from the idol, but from permission to visit the temple. Do you know whether they attempted, by all means in their power, to prevent the cruelty attendant upon that procession ? — They most certainly did. Was it possible for them entirely to prevent it ?— During the time I re- mained in India, after they were in possession of it, I do not recollect numerous accidents happening. What are the cruelties with which the idol Juggernaut is connected, and to which you alluded ? — Many of those going for the purpose of wor- ship, when the car was drawn out in procession, used to devote them- selves to destruction, by getting under the wheels. In what manner did the East-India Company acquire any revenue from the natives, as connected with that procession ? — -By issuing certificates of permission to visit it, for which they paid a certain sum \ not the pro- cession, but the temple. The revenue, then, did not arise from tolerating the cruelties, but from permission to visit the idol itself? — No, the government endeavoured all in their power to restrain such mischiefs. Had the Marattas laid on any duty upon the persons visiting that idol, before the East-India Company acquired possession ? — Certainly they had. What number of devotees used to visit this idol, in the course of a year ? — I cannot answer that question ; it was remote from my place of resi- dence, and unless a regular list had been transmitted, it was impossible for me to form a judgment. In what manner did the East-India Company endeavour to put an end to the cruelties attendant upon the procession of this idol ? — I never was on the spot, but it was done by regulations, and people properly appointed to enforce those regulations. Was 70 M T NUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Titos. Graham, Was any encouragement given to any of the native Hindoos to visit the Esq. temple of the idol, in order that the Company might acquire revenue by \ v > those means ? — I am not aware that there was : on the contrary, they made the duty so light, as that they might visit it on much easier terms than they did formerly. Is it not within your knowledge, that treaties subsist between the Bri- tish government in India, and the native princes, by which the latter are prevented from entertaining Europeans in their service? — Formerly, the introduction of such an article in such treaties was considered as essential for the preservation of our power in India; and it is to be instanced in the case of the treaty made by Lord Ciive with Sujah Dowlah, in the year, I think, 17(55. Were not such treaties extended by Lord Welleslcy, under his govern- ment, to almost all the native princes of India ? — I have not at present a recollection whether it forms any article in the treaty with the Marattas, or not, which I believe is the only remaining power now with whom we have treaties. Is it not necessary for all Europeans to obtain passes, when they go from the presidencies of India into the interior of the country ? — It is cer- tainly necessary, in as far as it constitutes a check upon their going with- out such permission. Does not that regulation apply equally to Europeans in the service of the Company, and not in the service of the Company ? — Equally ; at least servants of the Company are obliged to ask permission before they can leave any settlement where they may be stationed ; on the other hand, people not in the service are obliged to have written passports. Are they not liable to be taken up, when they cannot produce such passes ? — Not the servants of the Company; but certainly others, who have no such passes, are liable to be taken up. Are not the native police officers very vigilant in the exercise of their duties? — No doubt they are. Do you conceive that there would be any serious danger to the British interests in India, from the admission of a few additional merchants and agents at the different presidencies and stations on the sea coast in India ? —I do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7 j I do not, provided they were under similar restrictions as those who Thos. Graham now are there. Do you think that any danger would arise from the admission of those Europeans occasionally into the interior, for mercantile purposes, under the present restrictions and regulations of the honourable Company? — Under the limited sense of the question, I do not conceive that any danger could ensue. You have spoken of embarrassments or interferences with the authori- rities under the Bengal government, which might be apprehended ? — Bv the promiscuous and more extensive intercourse without restriction. In speaking of those interferences, do you allude, among others, to in- terference with the Company's servants in procuring their investments?-— Certainly not. Do you conceive such interferences would be likely to arise ? — I think they might, through the medium of the manufacturers respectively em- ployed. Do you conceive that such interference would be likely to create a competition in the marker, which might raise the prices beyond those usually given by the Company ? — I do not think it would. Then you do not conceive that competition would be likely to create a rise in the market ?— The question I apprehend referred to persons going into the country for the purpose of purchasing commodities. Do not you conceive that such interference would be likely to create a rise in the price of the articles, the manufactures for instance, so as to in- crease the demand of the weavers ? — I do not think they would, for the prices given by the Company for the articles provided on their account are very liberal, and the manufacturers themselves are perfectly satisfied with those prices. Are the prices given by the Company equal to those given by the pri- vate merchants ? — As far as I ever understood it, they are as high. How comes it, then, that it was understood the natives prefer dealing with private merchants, to the Company ? — My belief is perfectly the reverse ; Esq. "V" 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Titos. Graham, reverse ; the manufacturers prefer the Company's employment, because Lsq. they are sure of its permanency, and they look upon all other purchasers 1 v i as precarious. How comes it then to be necessary to station peons, or native officers, at the houses of the weavers, to prevent the interference of private mer- chants, till the Company's investments are provided ? — Because of the manufacturers not being always so honest as to reserve the goods manu- factured with the Company's money for the use of the Company, and to dispose of them very often to private merchants. Then the Company pay for their goods before they receive them ?— • They make advances in money for the manufacture of them, previous to their beinsr manufactured. '£> For what purpose are those advances made?— For the purpose of enabling them to buy the material with which they manufacture the goods, for they have no stores. Are the weavers not kept constantly in arrears to the honourable Com- pany ? — I apprehend only in arrears from their own deficiencies of de- liveries. Are not the native weavers subject to corporal punishment if they do not fulfil their engagements with the Company ? — During the whole of my residence in India, for the period of nine and-thirty years, I never heard of it. [The further examination of the witness was postponed.] [The witness withdrew. The Chairman was directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. Veneris, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 73 Veneris, 2° die Aprilis 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. THOMAS GRAHAM, Esq. was again called in, and examined by the Committee, as follows : You mentioned, that it was usual to station peons or native sentinels T/ios. Graham, over the weavers when performing their engagements with the Company; Esq. are private merchants allowed to exercise the like means of securing the u. _ nr __ / fulfilment of the weavers engagements with them ? — Peons were only sent at the periods when their engagements ought to have been completed, in order to expedite the fulfilment of them ; private merchants are at liberty, no .doubt, to send their own servants for the same purposes, they are under no restriction whatever. Would that be submitted to on the part of the weavers ? — I apprehend it is discretionary with them to do so or not ; but all private traders have courts of justice to have recourse to, in case engagements are not fulfilled, in order to enforce them. In your opinion, would the weavers submit to having peons so placed, over them, or would they not complain to the courts of justice, and on such complaints would not such peons be removed ? — I apprehend it would depend entirely upon the parties sent, whether they were permitted to remain or not ; certainly a court of j ustice, on its being represented that the weavers were placed under restraint by such persons, would imme- diately remove them. Would the courts of justice in like manner remove the peons placed by the Company's commercial officers ? — No doubt, if they were guilty of any kind of violence. You are aware that the Company's regulations allow of peons being so posted over the weavers? — They allow of their being so sent, for the purpose of calling upon them for the fulfilment of their engagements. L What -7 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T/ios. Graham, What are the penalties to which the weavers are suhject for the non- Esq. performance of their engagements ? — That will depend upon the engage- i v > ments themselves ; what the penalties may be, I cannot distinguish. You are no doubt acquainted with the regulations of the Company for the provision of their investments; if any weaver shall, by himself or by any other person, sell cloths to private merchants, Europeans or agents, or to dealers, 'or agents of whatever description, whilst he is deficient in his stipulated deliveries on account of the Company's investment, is he not liable to be prosecuted in the judges' court, and, upon proof of the fact, adjudged to forfeit to the Company all that the produce of the cloths so sold, rated either at what he got for them or their bazar or market value, may exceed the ordinary prime cost of the thread in them, with costs of suit besides ; and moreover, that the weaver shall still be obliged to complete his engagements ? — I have no doubt about the existence of such a regula- tion at kast to the time I remained in India. Are not the weavers, by the same regulations, obliged to give a fort- night's notice to the Company, in the event of their wishing to decline receiving any further advances? — If that forms part of the regulation, I have no doubt but it is correctly stated. In the event of their not fulfilling their engagements by the period agreed on, are they not prevented from working for more recently formed engagements, or for bazar sales, until those engagements are completed ? — If the question is quoted from the regulations, I have only to repeat that I have no doubt of its having existed at the time I was there. You have admitted that advances are made by the Company to the weavers, to a considerable extent ; at what period are those advances made ? — I cannot charge my memory correctly with respect to the periods at which they are made ; but they are made at least three or four months previous to the delivery of the goods for which the money may have been advanced. To what extent are those advances, as far as you know ? — Without reference to the public accounts I could not positively say. You have mentioned, that they were made for the purpose of buying materials to make the cloths ? — They certainly are, to the weavers. Those EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS'. 75 Those materials are very cheap, are they not ? — They are cheap as an Tiios. Graham, article, but they vary in price, according to the state ot the market, Esq. for it is bought at the open markets. Is any interest charged to the weavers, upon those advances ? — I never have understood that they were charged with interest for advances. Are you aware that the interest so incurred, is added to the price of the goods ? — I do not understand the import of the question. On making the invoices at Calcutta, is there any charge made of in- terest upon advances to the weavers ? — I do not believe it is the practice to do so. Were you in the supreme council at Bengal in the year 1793 r — I was. Do you recollect any regulations being made at that time, with a view to the protection of the natives trading with Europeans, in the interior of Bengal ? — I cannot charge my memory, whether in the regulations that were framed generally for commerce, any provision was made of the des- cription alluded to. Did you sign a letter to the Court of Directors on the 6th of March. 1793, referring to a minute of Lord Cornwallis's upon that occasion ? — I cannot speak to dates, or what may have been the object of any let- ter bearing such date ; but it was my duty as a member of that board, to sign all public letters that went from the government to the Court of Directors. Do you recollect this being part of the minute so entered by Lord Cornwallis, " That should the restrictions on the trade between India and Britain be withdrawn or lessened, it would create a further necessity for strengthening the hands of justice ; that the idea, of agents of Europeans or officers of government being able to commit oppression with impunity, must be eradicated ; that the people would then feel themselves secure in their persons and property, and a spirit of industry would animate both the manufacturers and the cultivators of land ; that the agents of European traders might then pervade every part of the country without injury to the people, and it would be enriched in proportion to the extent for their demand for its produce and manufactures;" that minute referring to the regulations which were then adopted ? — I cannot recollect my having ac- L 2 tually 76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Graham, tually signed such a letter ; but I should have no hesitation, if I saw my Esq. signature to it, in acknowledging what is there stated. / — You have said it was usual for the commanders and officers of the Company always to act as their own agents ; is it not usual also for them to employ rovashies or native brokers? — No doubt, under their own directions. Do you know the usual per-centage allowed to those brokers ? — I really do not, but I have never understood that there was any regular per-centage allowed to people of that description. Are you at all acquainted with the country or coasting trade of India ? —I have no knowledge of it. Have you had occasion to know, during your residence in India, whe- ther any articles of British manufacture or growth form any part of that trade ? — I never have. Are you acquainted with the character of the Malavs, or the inha- bitants of the coast of Sumatra, and the Streights of Malacca ? — I have never been in that part of India, and have no personal knowledge of their characters. Do not you know from accurate information, that the intercourse of Europeans with the Malays has been productive of mnssacres of the Europeans? — I have often heard of accidents of that ki^d happening, and have always been informed that the Malays are of a very vindictive and violent temper. Have not whole crews of ships of small burthen been cut off by the Malays to your knowledge? — According to the information recorded in newspapers, or from general report, I have no doubt there have been such things. AVhat, in your opinion, would be the effect of an indiscriminate inter- course of Europeans with the Malays ? — I think they would all be in great danger of losing their lives, those resorting there. You said yesterday, that you thought considerable danger would arise from the promiscuous intercourse between the Europeans that would flock to India, in case of the opening of the trade, and the Hindoos, without EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 77 without certain regulations ; dp you think the present regulations adopted Thos. Graham; by the East India Company in respect or" Europeans, not servants <.f the Esq. Company, would be sufficient, or that it would be necessary to adopt any further regulations ? — I think it would be very difficu.t, it not almost impracticable, to frame regulations which would obviate all the bad con- sequences which might arise from such promiscuous intercourse. Do you think that if it was necessary to adopt any stricter regulations with respect to the intercourse between the Europeans, not servants of the Company, and the Hindoos, those regulations would diminish the advantages uhich would otherwise accrue to the merchants that might engage in the open trade ?— Inasmuch as it might subject them to addi- tional expense, by being restrained from pervading all parts of the coun- try, I think it would have that effect. You stated in your evidence yesterday, that it was a custom of the Gentoos to devote themselves as voluntary victims before the temple of Juggernaut, lying down to be crushed to death under the car of the idol; are those self-devotions peculiar to Juggernaut, or do they prevail at the other temples of the idols in India ? — By no means, they do not. Do you know what the practice is at the temple of Seringham, near Trichinopoly ? — Never having been in that part of India, I cannot answer the question. Are you equally uninformed of the practice at the temple of Jambucisa? ■ — Equally, for the same reason. There are two other celebrated temples, called Trepady and Tramo- noly? — Not having been, at either, 1 must give the same answer to the question. It does not fall within your knowledge or information, what are the practices at those temples ? — It does not. Are not the Gentoos divided into two great sects, called the sect of Sheva and the sect of Vishnoo?-— I fancy there are still more divisions than two, an ongst the Hindoos; what their number maybe, I cannot charge my memory. « Do you know whether it is a general practice among the sect of Sheva,. to- ■v~ 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Graham, to devote themselves to death, as a religious rite towards their deities r— Esq. I have no knowledge of it myself. You stated, that at Juggernaut, the practice of lying down to be crushed to death under the idol's car, was a common practice ?< — Accord- ing to the information publicly communicated from thence, I understand it to be so. You stated that the Company had made regulations which had dimi- nished that practice ? — According to my information, instructions having been given to the magistrates to do all in their power to prevent it, I con- ceived it had tended to the diminution of it. By what means do you understand that practice to have been pre- vented ? — By persuasion to those who were attendants upon the car ; to have used force, would probably have been productive of greater loss; of lives. You do not mean then, by your former answer, to state that the Com- pany have used any other means than those of persuasion ? — Certainly not. The government in India, as you stated, derived a considerable reve- nue from the temple of Juggernaut ? — I am not at present in the recol- lection of its amount, but, as I stated yesterday, they receive a certain sum for people going to visit the temple. You also stated, that they had diminished the tax upon persons visiting the temple, and by that means facilitated their access to it? — The taxes were unlimited before, and they are now regulated ; and nobody has any right to exceed them, to claim any thing beyond them. Do you know how those taxes are applied ? — In the first instance, to defray the charges of establishment ; and if there is any residue, it be- comes an available revenue to government, as the rest of the revenues of India. By the charges of the establishment, do you mean the establishment of the temple?— The establishment of the temple. What are the nature of the charges of that establishment? — I certainly cannot EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 79 cannot charge my recollection with all the charges ; indeed they are so T/ws. Graham, numerous, that it is impossible to keep them in memory. Esq. I y J Is the payment of the priests among them ? — I apprehend it must be ; it must form a part of the charge. Is it not a part of them to pay salaries to dancing women, who are employed to attend the temple ? — I apprehend not. Are there not in fact a great many women employed in the service of the temple, women of vicious character and habits ? — Not, I believe, in general, at least as far as my information goes ; such are said to exist in the Carnatic, at the temples there. Is it not an article of those charges, to build or keep in order the image of the car of the idol, under which the victims are crushed ? — The priests in charge of the temples, no doubt, incur expense in the support of them. Is not Juggernaut the resort of pilgrims, and persons of more than ordinary religious zeal, from all parts of Hindostan ? — It certainly is. Do they not resort thither, at particular seasons, in great multitudes ?— They do. And the Company, by means of persuasion, has interfered to check the practices which have been spoken of? — The only practice, to which I apprehend my answer applied, was that ot devoting themselves under the car ; that does not apply to all Hindoos who go there. The government have applied themselves to the prevention of that practice ? — I have no doubt they have. Did that inference widi the religious opinions of the Gentoos, ever, in your knowledge or information, produce any insurrection or disturbance? — It never did, to my knowledge ; but I stated before, if coercion had been used, it might have led to more bloodshed than the devotion of the few who devoted themselves to destruction. The persuasion of the Indian government did, in your opinion, prevent a great many of those zealots devoting themselves to death, who came there *><* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Tlios. Graham, there for the purpose? — According to my information, they have been less Esq. numerous since the Company got possession of Juggernaut than before. Which you suppose to have been the result of the Company's inter- ference ? — Possibly it might have been the result of government's inter- ference, or it might have arisen from better understanding on the part of the people themselves. In point of fact, whatever the cause was, the interference tfas produced no ill consequences ? — No, I apprehend not ; the interference, in the manner exercised, I do not apprehend has produced any bad consequences. Do you then suppose that peaceable interference, by persuasion, to correct any other of their religious prejudices, would prcduce any ill con- sequences ? — Much would depend upon the manner in which that per- suasion was used, and the object of using it. The question supposes that the interference was by persuasion merely, without any coercion, or any threat of coercion ? — Such persuasion must have some purpose; therefore I cannot say what might have been its effect, unless the purpose were avowed. Suppose the purpose to be the prevention of any other of their sanguinary or criminal religious practices? — I conceive any direct interference, such as I have before stated with respect to Juggernaut, might be productive of the most mischievous consequences. For what reason do you suppose that interference of the same kind, which has not produced mischievous consequences at Juggernaut, should produce mischievous consequences ? — I have the same opinion on that question as I had on the question regarding Juggernaut, that persuasion may operate as a check and lessen the continuance of such practices. Then you do not suppose that persuasion alone would produce any ill effects? — I do suppose that if that persuasion was constantly resorted to, it might excite dissatisfaction, and be productive of bad consequences, not dissimilar to those which I conceived might have arisen from any act of torce at Juggernaut. Is your opinion founded upon the degree of the persuasion only, or upon the object of it ? — Upon the object of it. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 81 Can there be any object of persuasion that is more directly against their T/ios. Graham, religious prejudices, than interfering with the worship of their idol Jug- Esq. gernaut ? — I have never stated that they interfered by persu:> .ion to prevent < -^ — — ' the worship of the idol at Juggernaut, only to present people from de- voting themselves to destruction. Is there any act of faith among them that they hold in greater veneration than that self devotion at Juggernaut ? — I rim not sufficiently acquainted with all the articles of their faith, to be able to give any precise answer to that question. * Do not you suppose that that act of faith which induces a man to devote himself to a cruel and immediate death, must be at least as sacred in his estimate as any other ? — [The witness was directed to withdraw. — The Witness was again called in, and the question proposed.] I am not aware that it is an article of their faith. Upon what principle then is the sacrifice made ? — They think they will be happier hereafter. Are their priests not present at the time of this immolation ? — I know not ; never having been present when those occurrences happened, I cannot say. According to your understanding on the subject, is not this a religious procession, attended by the priests ? — According to the information I have, it is a religious procession ; by whom attended, I must repeat my former answer, that not having been there, I cannot say. Do you suppose that the priests encourage or discourage it ? — What has been so long established, I can have no doubt has the approbation and support of the priests, I mean in respect of the procession. You stated, that you apprehended danger from a promiscuous and un- restrained intercourse of Europeans with the natives, because the Europeans might interfere with the religious prejudices and habits of the natives ; did that answer relate to persons going to propagate Christianity only, or to mercantile adventurers also ? — I think it would apply still more forcibly to persons endeavouring to promote Christianity, having so avowed their ob- ject, inasmuch as it might appear, in that case, to come from authority ; M and *2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T/tos. Graham, anc { j believe it is now forty years since the wisdom of this House passed Esq. n n Act, protecting the natives of India in the exercise of their laws and. 1 V religion ; having enjoyed that security for such a length of time, I think. nothing can be more dangerous than any interference which shall cause them the alarm of any intention of a change. You suppose that the objection applies in some degree also to mercantile adventurers ? — In as far as they from ignorance of their prejudices might trespass upon them. Would that danger be more from mercantile adventurers not in con- nection with the government, than from mercantile adventurers in con- nection with goverment ? — I conceive it would be more, for one reason, that the servants of the Company are completely in the power of the go- vernment, and are well acquainted with all the regulations ; and it is an. understood injunction to all of them, to avoid any thing which shall in any shape trespass upon the prejudices of the natives. How do you reconcile that with your apprehension of the peculiar danger horn missionaries, because they might be supposed to come with authority ? — Because they can have but one object, to endeavour to con- \ert them to the Christian religion. o Do you found your apprehensions upon any speculation of your own, or upon experience and fact ? — My apprehension is from my general know- ledge of the temper of the people, and the value they have for all their ceremonies. Do not you suppose that-other nations, professing an idolatrous religion, and under the influence of a priesthood, have been of the same character? — There is no nation that I am acquainted with,, that are in a similar situation to the natives of India. Have you any reason for supposing that they are more attached to their superstitions, or more under the influence of their priests, than our ancestors in this island were attached to their superstitions, and under the influence of thedruids? — Not having myself been in being at the time referred to, I cannot speak to what influence may have existed in those days ; I am certain, however, from having lived thirty-nine vears in India, and amongst the natives, that nothing would so much excite their ani- mosity, as any attempt to interfere wuh their 'religion. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S Ari'AIRS. 83 Do you know whether other religions than that of the Hindoos have T/ios."'CraJiam, been propagated in India? — The Mussulman religion necessarily exists, in Eso. consequence of their having been in possession of that part of India for < ' nearly seven hundred years prior to the present period, and they erected places of worship for the exercise of their own religion. How many millions of Mahometans do you suppose are at this time in India? — They do not constitute a tenth of the population of that part of India in which I have resided. Do you suppose that the common estimate of fifty millions, for the po- pulation of India under the British dominion is correct ? — I rather think that an enumeration would give a greater number. You suppose then that there may be five millions of Mahometans in India at the least ? — At the least, I should suppose. Are not a considerable portion of them probably the descendants of persons who once professed the Hindoo faith? — I never was acquainted with any of them ; they may be from promiscuous intercourse the descend- ants of some of them ; but it is a thing totally out of my knowledge. Have you any historical information of any revolution or any religious war in India in consequence or that conversion, or the means by which it was effected ? — I know not really what conversion is alluded to, as I have not stated any conversion. Do you not know that there are in India a great multitude of Christians converted from the Hindoo faith ? — I do not ; from the Hindoo faith I certainly do not. From what faith do you suppose the Christians upon the coast of Mala- bar were converted ? — I conceive they had previously deserted all faith, and were outcasts from their own society. Can you give any estimate of their numbers ?— I cannot. Do you know that there are in the island of Ceylon a great number of Christians, converted to the Christian faith under the dominion of the Dutch ? — I do not. Have you no information, on which you rely, on the subject ? — I never M 2 made 8 4- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Graham, made any inquiry on the subject before, and do not recollect ever hearing it. Esq. < v ) Do yon know of there having been missionaries labouring to convert tlie natives of India, from the Danish settlements, and some missionaries from this country ? — Both I have heard of. Do you know of any insurrection, or any popular commotion, occa- sioned by their eiTorts to preach Christianity r — I have a recollection that the same year as I left Calcutta, one of the missionaries, whose name I forget, went near to a place called Chitpoore, at least so it was reported to me, for 1 was not present, who did endeavour to preach to them, but it ended in an affray ; what were the consequences of ic I really do not know. Did you ever hear of the missionary Swartz ? — I have heard of him ; nay, I have seen him. Was he not for a ereat manv vears indefatigable in his efforts to convert the Gentoos to Christianity? — He was unremitting in his efforts to make Christians, but from what religion or persuasion, I know not. Did you ever hear of anv revolution, or insurrection, or popular com- motion, occasioned by the labours of Swartz ? — He was a man of great discretion, and I apprehend he only invited such as shewed a disposition to attend him. [The Witness was directed to withdraw. The Witness was again called in.j What do you consider as the political effect of the proposed church establishment in India ? — [The Witness was directed to withdraw. [ The Question was withdrawn.] The Chairman was directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. Luna, EAST-INDIA COMPANVS AFFAIRS. 85 Lunce, 5° die Aprilis 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. -v~ Lieutenant Colonel Sir JOHN MALCOLM, was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Adam.~] — Have you not been in the military service of the East- Lieut- Colonel India Company, upon the Madras establishment ?— I have been. Sir J. Malcolm. How long have you served the East India Company ?— I arrived in India in the year 1783, and have been ever since that in the service of the East-India Company. How long is it since you returned from India ? — About eight months. Have your services in India been such as to afford you the means of general information with regard to the state of all the settlements under the government of the Company ? — They have been such as to afford me an opportunity of observing the state of all the different settlements in India, having been employed in each. Have you been at any time placed in the performance of any particular duty at Mysore ? — I have been resident at Mysore. How long were you resident at Mysore ? — I was resident at Mysore nearly nine years, but having been employed on various other political missions, I only resided there fourteen or fifteen months. During the period of your having the appointment of resident at My- sore, you were sent upon several different political missions i — I was. State to what parts of India those missions were ? — During the last fourteen years that I was in India, I was employed upon thirteen distinct political missions, which missions led me almost over every part ot India, both Bengal and Madras ; and three of them were to Persia, over which country 1 have travelled. During these missions I have conducted nego- ciations 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieul. Colonel ciations with almost all the principal courts in India. I have resided at the Sir /. Malcolm, principal settlements, as well as most ot the principal towns and military cantonments in India. Have those various services enabled you to become acquainted with the characters and manners of India, in the different ranks of society in that country ? — From understanding several of their languages, and having had a srreat deal of intercourse with the natives of India, during the whole of my residence in that country, I had opportunities, which I endeavoured to take advantage of, to become acquainted with the manners and habits of all classes of society in that country. From that knowledge, can you state how far an unlimited and unre. strained resort of Biitish subjects, or Europeans, to India, would affect the Indian government ? — It by unlimited and unrestrained is meant, that persons going there should be merely subject to the general law of the land, and not under specific restrictions of the local government, there can b „ 1 W ere exceptions, but very lew. Do you think that Europeans out of the service of the Company, ig- norant of the language of the natives, and going into the Mysore or any other part of India, are likely to get into disputes with the natives ; and w hy ? — If it frequently occurs that officers who are under all the restraint of severe military discipline, are embroiled in such disputes, I conceive persons not in the service, and equally ignorant of their manners and cus- toms, would be still more liable to be so : one prominent cause of such persons being involved in disputes, will be the native interpreters, whom they employ as the medium of their communications, such persons, who generally speak broken English, are one of .the lowest and most fraudulent classes of the community ; their object is to derive a livelihood by cheating both the European by whom they are employed, and the native with whom he has any concern ; and they have always art enough to direct the rage in which the European is, at being defrauded, against the person with whom, from ignorance of their language, he cannot directly communicate. Is the intervention of such interpreters as you have described, between the native Indian and the European trader, likely to aggravate the evils which you have stated ? — I have stated it as one of the principal causes of those evils. Are you of opinion that that cause would operate with greater effect and force, were the intercourse between traders and natives, than between tra- vellers and natives ? — Most certainly, because the object can be only to defraud the traveller of a very small sum out of what he may have to pay tor his necessaries ; the concerns of the merchant may present a very strong incitement to roguery. Can you form a judgment of how far the great acquisition of territory lately made by the Company, is calculated to increase or to diminish the evils of unlimited and unrestrained European resort ? — Of the two evils which every state has to apprehend from foreign and domestic dangers, I con- sider that the late successes of the British arms in India have greatly di- minished, if they have not totally done away, the former to the govern- ment of that country ; the danger from our extended possessions must necessarily have increased in a ratio with the magnitude of those domi- nions, and with them our danger from insurrection or revolt. That our territories in India contain a great number of seditious and discontented men, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 91 men, there can be no doubt ; and as those men, in any object they may Lieut. -Colonel have of subverting our empire, have lost all hope of doing that through Sir J. Malcolm. the means of foreign enemies, we must expect that their exertions will be * v ' doubly active in trying to foment internal insurrection and revolt. Under that view of the case, I conceive that any thing that tends in any shape or way to hurt our character, or to alienate the minds of the natives, to be an evil, and one that must have a gradual tendency to weaken the bond which subsists between the government and its subjects: But it would be im- possible for me to say how far or in what degree, or in what period of time, such may be effected ; but of this I am certain, that we should attend most carefully, and exert all our vigilance, to prevent that descrip- tion of evils which, from their unperceived operation and gradual progress, are much more incapable of remedy than more direct or greater dangers : And under this view of the case, I certainly think that the increased danger of insurrection, from the increase of our dominions, will require as strict, if not stricter regulations and restrictions upon the intercourse between Europeans and the natives of India, than what betore existed. You are understood to have said, that the authority of the government of the Company in India might be injured by an influx of Europeans ; do you conceive that the punishment of Europeans, for crimes committed against the natives, or for offences that affect the natives, or the punish- ment of Europeans in general for any offences, is likely to affect the authority of government and the European influence in India ? — I do not think it is likely to affect the authority, because I think that authority must be raised for the moment, by doing justice upon its own subjects, in cases where they have been engaged in disputes with the natives; but I consider every decision that a court of British justice in India is compelled to pass upon an European, in a case with a native.- to have a baneful influence, so far as it affects the general character and respectability of the country to which he belongs, and which character it is most essential, in a govern- ment so constituced as that ot British India, should be preserved upon the highest scale. State whether, from your knowledge of the Indian character, and of their wants, the general population of India are likely to become cus- tomers for European commodities? — If by the general papulation of India is meant (which I suppose it is) the great mass, there is no doubt they are not likely to become customers for European articles, because they do not possess the means to purchase them, even if, from their present simple habits of life and attire, they required them. N2 Do 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. -Colonel D° you mean that the wages of labour are so low, and the gains of ma- Str J. Malcolm, nufacturers so trifling, that they have nothing to bestow upon foreign t v ' commodities ? — 1 believe (for I have not very minute knowledge upon the subject) that the wages of labour and the pay of manufacturers differ in a very great degree over different parts of India, but that in no part is it sufficient to enable them to purchase luxuries ;, and such they consider every European article. Do you consider, from your experience of the Indian character, and from the appearances of that character at the time you left India, that they are so wedded to their habits,, as not to be likely to be induced to make any change in them, by intercourse with Europeans, or by the opportu- nity of purchasing European commodities?. — It is impossible for me to stats what a very long period of time (I mean hardly under a century) may effect in the change ot men's manners ; but I am convinced no such sudden. change can be expected, or is likely, to take place. Are their manners and their different wants of a nature that do not- require any supply of European commodities ? — Speaking of the general population, and of the lower orders, certainly they do not. Is it the practice for the Indians of higher rank and greater wealth, to apply their superfluous wealth in the purchase of European commodities ?' — In the principal settlements and at some of the larger towns under the dominions of the British government, there are many natives who purchase articles of luxury, such as broad cloths, watches, and various articles of that kind ; but I do not think such can be said to apply their superfluous wealth, that is more generally expended in feasts, marriages, and other things more connected with the usages and manners of their own country. I have known some who imitated (to flatter their superiors) European manners, and adopted almost their dress ; but such, when they were Hindoos and Mahomedans, generally appeared to me to lose in the value of their own class, by a departure from the usages. The rich settlement ot Bombay is perhaps an exception to this rule : The Parsees, who are extremely wealthy, and a perfectly distinct clas;, have assimilated more with the European character than perhaps any other race in India, and they spend a great deal of money in furnishing houses, and purchasing carriages and other luxuries of a similar description ; many of them are in the habit, I believe, of ordering very large supplies of articles from England, both for their own use and for sale, for they are almost all merchants. I have understood that the late nabob of the Carnatic had a vanity in purchasing many European articles ; and I believe that the present nabob of Lucknow, Sadit Alii Cawn, and his predecessor, have purchased EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 93 purchased more European articles than all the rest of the persons in their Lieut. -Colonel dominions, put together; a conduct which has no doubt proceeded as Sir J- Malcolm. much from the vanity of making the collection, as from any use to which they could be put. Are you able to state whether the present mode of supplying, and the amount of supply of English and European articles sent to India, has been sufficient or more than sufficient to supply the demands of the natives ? — I have not that knowledge of commercial detail that can enable me to answer that question in any other manner than by stating, that I never was at any principal town, or any military cantonment, in British India (and I have been at most) that I did not see a superabundant supply of such articles, and which the natives might have purchased, if they chose ; and thrit from my knowledge of the industry of native merchants, I have no doubt that there were numbers at such places, who would have carried those an icles (if they could to any gain) to every other part of the country in their vicinity. Have you any access to' know, from the situations you have been in in Persia, whether the Company have taken every means in their power to push the sale of European commodities in that quarter of the East ; and if you have, state what the effect of those efforts has been ? — When I went on my first mission to Persia in 1800, I was directed by the supreme government of India to attend to any instructions I might receive from the government of Bombay, and that government furnished me with every information upon the former trade with Persia, and earnestly desired my attention to the object of finding a mart for any European goods, but particularly woollens ; and I had an opportunity of knowing, that so eager was their desire at that period to promote the sale of woollens in that quarter, that their agent at Bushire had been allowed to sell them at a rate, and upon a credit, the result of which was a very considerable loss to government : I made every inquiry that was possible ; and in concluding the commercial treaty, obtained some diminution of the duties, but do not believe there was any increased sale : The north-western part of Persia, in which the court resides, is partly supplied with woollens and other European articles from Astracan, by the Caspian Sea, and even British woollens are imported by that quarter. Was every means taken by you, agreeably to your instructions, to promote the sale of British commodities, in Persia, of every description ? — I took every means within my power to promote a general intercourse between the two countries, and to give every facility to the sale of every article both 9* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. -Colonel both European and Indian ; and I had the satisfaction of believing, that Sir J. Malcolm, by my endeavours the trade of indigo, which had before chiefly gone ' through Cabul lo Persia, was turned to the port of Calcutta. ->r m Have you found it practicable to promote the sale of English and European commodities there ? — I had no means of promoting the sale farther than by establishing that intercourse which rendered the communi- cation more amicable and easy ; the trade was perfectly open to Bushire, and being carried on chiefly by Persian merchants themselves, who had resort to every port in India, I can have no doubt they carried every article to their own country that would produce them profit ; but the con- sumption of European articles in Persia, with the single exception of woollens, is, I believe, very trifling, chiefly on account of the general poverty of the mass of the community, and also from their own country furnishing all such articles as are necessary for their habits of life. Besides the poverty of the country and of the people, does not the insecurity attending the conveyance of commodities from one part of Persia to another, tend very much to prevent the sale of European commodities there ? — That no doubt must tend generally to interrupt the commercial intercourse of the country, for till within the last fifteen years Persia had been in a most unsettled state for a very long period ; but that kingdom has been lately comparatively tranquil and settled. You have mentioned the Parsees ; are they not a small tribe confined to the small island of Bombay ? — They are confined as a community to a part of the country of Guzerat and Bombay, 'they are certainly only a small tribe comparatively with any other class in India ; I do not know their numbers established on the sea coast of Guzerat and Bombay. Can you state what proportion of that number may be of the higher orders, who dealt in the luxuries of European commodities? — I cannot state ; but those were in a comparatively small proportion to the numbers of their own community, only the most wealthy. Does not the settlement of Bombay and the island of Bombay appear very different in manners from the other settlements and establishments of the Company on the continent of India; and does not that settlement partake more of European manners, and appear more like an European establishment, than the other settlements in India ? — I think there is a distinct line of difference to be drawn, not so much between Bombay and the other principal settlements of the British in India, as between the inhabitants EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'^ AFFAIRS. 93 inhabitants of those three settlements and the rest of the towns of India: Unit -Colonel From being more the resort of Europeans, and a great proportion of the Sir J. Mu'cchn. natives having become acquainted with the language, with the laws and < v ' usages of Europeans, the natives of those settlements are much more European than they are to be found in any other part of the country ; but I think a greater proportion of the Parsees speak English, and assimiia'e with the manners of the Europeans, than any other class in India that I know, of equal numbers. Can you state what proportion the Hindoo population of the island of Bombay bears to the rest of the population there ? — I have not particular in -mation on this subject ; but as most of the labourers and poorer c ses are Hindoos, I conclude that their numbers are much greater than of any other tribe: there are also a great number of very wealthy Hindoo merchants at Bombay. Can you state whether, for the purpose of European or British con- sumption in the principal settlements of the Company in India, Indian art ;ans, or manufacturers of European commodities, have established themselves in those settlements? — They have ; but the great proportion of sjjteh articles are manufactured under the direction at least of European artisans, who are settled at the various presidencies. Haye European artisans began to settle there, and to carry on their trad--? — They have; in the different settlements of Calcutta, Madras, and Bon ;ay, are to be found coach-makers, upholsterers, boot and shoe- maker^ . ather manufactories of all kinds, particularly at Madras j watch-makers, silversmiths, all Europeans, with native workmen. Do the pro' ace of those manufactures tend to diminish the consumption of European commodities sent from Europe? — They must, no doubt, have that tendency in a very considerable degree ; and they are (as far as I could judge) extending as fast as Europeans come out to direct them. You have said, that the artisans are Europeans with Indian workmen ; from your observation, ate not the Indians extremely ready in learning any handicraft art, and have thev not been enabled to make those articles to very considerable perfection ? — They are extremely apt at learning all such trades; various manufactures have beep established ; leather in all its branches is manufactured at a tannery established at Madras, at which they make military accoutrements, boots, shoes and other articles, even to ladies' gloyes ; carriages and other articles are made in very great perfection : 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieu (.-Colonel perfection : many of the half cast, or children of European fathers and Sir J. Malcolm, native mothers, are employed in such trades. I ^ > From this aptitnde on the part of the Indians, is it not likely that they would, in process of time, supply themselves with all such articles, to a diminution of European importation to India ? — There can be no doubt they would; I should conceive, from the price of labour, that they will be enabled to make those articles cheaper; I mean all such articles as the nature of the climate will admit of their manufacturing. (Examined by the Conunitlee.) Can you form any opinion what proportion of the native population of India, under the British sway, consists of Mahomedans and Hindoos ? — I have not the means of giving any exact answer to that point. Is it not considered as about one in ten ? — I have heard so, but I cannot state it from any calculations made by myself upon the subject. Supposing it then to be one in ten, according to the general opinion, do you imagine that that population appears at present generally submissive, and apparently contented with the British government ; is not that the prima facie state of things in India ? — We imagine that they are con- tented from their remaining tranquil ; but there is, even among Europeans in India the best acquainted with their language and manners, so little of that intimate intercourse with the body of the natives, which could alone lead to a precise knowledge of their real sentiments upon points of government, that it is very difficult for any person to say more than that they are apparently contented, because they remain quiet ; and that the leniency of the rule and the general system of our administration is such as should place us high in the scale of the governments to which they have been accustomed, or with which they can draw any comparison. Do you think, or not, that the majority of the Hindoo population are contented with the British sway, at present ? — I have answered that ques- tion as tar as I am able in what I stated above; they appear to be so. Do you think that the Mahomedan part of the population are equally contented and satisfied with the British sway, as that of the Hindoos are? — I think it is probable that a great proportion of the Mahomedan popu- lation may not be so much contented, because they have a more recent recollection EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 97 recollection than the Hindoos, of that power which they have lost by the Lieut -Colonel introduction of our government. birJ. Malcolm v v ' While the Hindoos are contented with the British government, do you imagine that any discontents or attempts, on the part of the Mahomedans, could seriously affect the British power in India ? — The British power in India is spread over so vast a country, and the different provinces of that empire have such a varied population, that it is rather difficult to answer that question. But there are, no doubt, provinces in our empire, such as the Douab, of recent acquisition, where the great majority of the military part of the population are Mahomedans ; and any insurrection in that province, for instance, could receive no check from any good disposition of th-. Hindoo inhabitants. In n.any other provinces, the Hindoos form the great majority, and an insurrection of the Mahomedans would be of comparatively less consequence; but I certainly conceive that the attach- ment of the Hindoo population of India is the chief source of our secu- rity in India. It is however to be remaiked, that in many parts ot India the Hindoos and Mahomedans have amalgamated more than could be supposed from the difference ot '.heir persuasion ; and the Mahomedans of India have not only become more lax in the performance of their religious duties than the Mahomedans of neighbouring countries, but seem gradu- ally to have adopted some of the minor usages of the Hindoos; nor is it unusual for Hindoo princes, such as Scmdia and Holkar, to conciliate their Mahomedan subjects and troops, by paying their devotions at the shrine of Mahomedan saints, and mixing in their feasts. It appears, then, from what you have just stated, that the Mahomedans and the Hindoos live together in social habits, in many parts of India ? — In as social habits as their faith will permit. In speaking of the Maho- medans of India, I have been led to state what I have done, from having had an opportunity of comparing their manners and usages with the Ma- homedans of Persia, Arabia, and Turkey. The Mahomedans and the Hindoos live much more in habits than the Europeans and the Hindoos! — Most certainly. Do you think that there are any motives by which the Mahomedans could excite in the Hindoos a disposition to unite with them in putting down the British power ? — I conceive there are no motives but such as should communicate to both a common sentiment of alarm or indignation at the conduct of the British Government, or at that of any of its dele- gated authorities. O Are <>8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE licuf.-Co'onel Are you of opinion that the M/iomedans would put down the British Sir J Milco'm. power if they could?— This question has reference to such a number ( . j of local considerations connected with the period which the Mahome- dans have lived under the British laws, and the period which the Hin- doos have, in different parts of India, that it is impossible I can give any o-eneral answer to it : I certainly do not think it is a common desire with The Mahomedans in every part of India to subvert the^ British power, however it may be indulged by some of the turbulent of that class, and particularly the higher ranks, who have recently lost their authority ; nor am I satisfied that all Hindoos are contented ; I am only able to speak of the apparent general disposition of our subjects. Do you think if any ground was furnished, to enable the Mahomedans to induce the Hindoos to make common cause with them, that the British power must not be speedily overset ?— I cin have no doubt that if a cause should operate, as is described by that question, our authority could not last a day : 1 understand by the question, that by the words Mahome- , dans and Hindoos, are meant all our subjects of that class in India. [The Witness was directed to withdraw. The Chairman was directed to report Progress and ask leave to sit again. Mercury, 7° die Aprilis, 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. Lieutenant Colonel Sir JOHN MALCOLM was again called in, and further examined by the Committee, as follows : You are understood to have said, that the natives of India residing at Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, have, from their intercourse with the Europeans, relaxed a good deal in their prejudices, and that, in conse- quence, several articles of European manufacture are in use amongst them? — I did not mean by "prejudices" that they had relaxed in any religious EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 99 religious prejudices, but that more of the natives of the presidencies were Lieut. -Colonel in the habit of using European articles, than of the natives in the Sir J.Makolm, provinces. i , • Can you form any idea of the numbers of the native population at Calcutta ? — I have heard it stated from 400,000 up to 600,000, but I have no means of forming a correct idea ; but in stating that more of the natives of the presidencies than of the provinces have used European articles, I meant the wealthy natives; the remark did not at all apply to the mass of the population. Do you conceive that a larger proportion of the wealthy natives are resident at Calcutta than in other towns ? — I think there rather is; though Benares, Patna, and other cities under the government, might almost compete in wealth (I believe) with the presidency. Have you any means of estimating the native population of Madras ? — ■ I do not recollect ever having heard it stated. Do you know what the native population at Bombay is ? — I cannot call to my memory exactly. Can you give a general estimate ? — I should think the population of the whole Island of Bombay, which may be almost called one settlement, not very much inferior, taking in the whole Island, to what Calcutta is, but I really have not, at present, any recollection that can lead me within one or two hundred thousand persons. As you have been at most of the courts in India, in the treaties between the Powers of India and the British government, is there not an express stipulation by which the native powers engage not to permit the residence of unlicensed Europeans in their respective states, without the consent of the British Government ? — I believe there is such an article in most of the treaties with the princes with whom we have alliances in the peninsula of India. Are there any prejudices, either civil or religious, amongst Persians, that would render the introduction of European articles impracticable? — Certainly they have no prejudices that would render the introduction of any European articles impracticable, at least I have never in the course of my intercourse heard of such. O 2 Have 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieul. 'Colonel Have you had an opportunity of judging whether the Persians are partial Sir J.Malcolm, to European fire-arms? — The Persian government was very s-olicituus to v -v— — ' obtain both cannon and fire-arms from the English government ; and the individual nobles of the military class in Persia, were, as far as 1 could judge, very desirous of having our pistols ; but I never knew them anxious to have those upon any other terms but that of receiving them for nothing ; and they, in general, used a cheaper manufacture, arms made in Turkev and in their own country : I believe their objection to pur- chasing our fire-arms, was their price, I mean particularly English pistols. Are woollens in use in Persia ? — They are. Do you know by what channel they get into Persia ? — I do; they are imported by the Persian Gulf to the port of Bushire, and sent from that port all over Persia; they also receive woollens by the Caspian Sea from Astracan. You havejust stated, the Persians have no sort of prejudices, and that European articles of all sorts are indiscriminately admitted into Persia; do not you imagine that if wines or liquors were to be landed, they would not be permitted to be imported into Persia ? — I said that the Persians had no kind of prejudices, as far as I had seen, that would render it imprac- ticable to import any European articles ; wine or other liquors are certainly contrary to the Mahomedan religion ; and I have never heard, by any accident, ot any person trying to import them as an article of trade ; but, as such, they might no doubt be objected to. You have stated the native population of Calcutta to be reckoned at about 400,000 ; have you any authority for the estimate of such an immense population ? — I have no authority but that of common report. You were just asked respecting the treaties with the different native powers, during the time you resided at the different courts in India ; did you never know or hear of Europeans finding their way to the different courts, and being engaged in the military service ? — Numbers ; both French and English. Do not you suppose that if the trade of India was allowed indiscri- minately to ships manned with Europeans, all along the peninsula coast of India, and not restricted to the principal settlements, such as Bombay, Madras, and Bengal, that there would be a facility given for European adventurers quitting the ships and finding their way into the interior of India, EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 101 India, notwithstanding every precaution of government ?— The extent of Lieut. -Colonel coast to which such ships were allowed indiscriminately to resort, would Sir J Malcolm. no doubt greatly increase the difficulty of preventing their penetrating v— v ' into the interior. If the export trade from this country was to be restricted, so far as relates to the peninsula continent of India, to the principal settlements, guch as Bombay, Madras, and Calcutta, do not you think, in such case that it might be very difficult for Europeans, by quitting their ships, to enter into the interior of the country ? — Most certainly. Then, so far as you have had an opportunity of judging, do you think it would be a very wise measure, for the security of the government of India, and also for regulating the trade to India, and preventing small- arms, gunpowder, and other warlike stores being furnished to the different native powers who may be inimical to the interests of this country, to restrict the trade in European ships to the principal settlements ? — I can only generally state, in answer to that question, that, as tar as I have had an opportunity of judging, the effect of the intercourse of Europeans with the natives, as well as attempt at contraband trade in arms or other things, I think that there cannot be too severe restrictions established ; and that in case of any increased number of Europeans being admitted to India, those restrictions ought to be rendered if possible still more strict and severe. You have said that there is a considerable degree of native population at the principal settlements, Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay ; can you form an opinion what proportion of that native population would be able, if willing, to purchase articles of British produce and manufacture ?— I really have no means whatever of forming any computation of the com- parative numbers of persons that would be able to do so. Do you think the lower description of that native population would be able to purchase those British commodities ? — Certainly not, if by lower is meant the common labouring classes. Can you form an opinion what proportion that lower population bears to the higher ranks ? — I have no knowledge that enables me to give a correct answer to that question. Are there not many merchants, natives, Parsees, and British, who are ready, and who do endeavour to push the sale of British manufactures up the 102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Colonel the Gulf of Persia, and to convey whatever articles they think will be Sir J. Malcolm, acceptable there? — There are, no doubt, in every one o^ the principal ' v ' settlements of British India, and at mot>t of the principal towns, both European and native merchants, who are active, industrious and enter- prising, and who trade in every quarter where they consider they can derive benefit, in all articles, both European and Indian, that are in the markets of those places. Does it fall within your knowledge that there are sales by auction of numbers of British articles at all our principal settlements ? — There are, and at Calcutta particularly, to a very great extent. Are not those articles frequently sold under the prime cost? — I have no correct means of answering that question ; but I should suppose so, by their being sold by auction. If, therefore, there was any probability of finding a vent for those articles, would not these natives, and British merchants, and Parsees, avail themselves of that, and be able to sell them proportiunably cheaper to the rate at which they could be sold if imported from England ?— I have not a sufficient knowledge of commercial detail to enable me to give a clear answer to that question. Are there not many places on the Malabar and Coromandel coast ac- cessible to ships, exclusive of the places where officers under the direction of the Company are stationed ? — I believe there are many parts of the coast of Malabar and Coromandel where ships might touch, where there is no European magistrate. Might not, through such places, a number of adventurers get into the interior of the country, under the general licence that all ships from. England should have free access to all parts of India? — In all parts of the British dominions there is a police established, and though no Euro- pean magistrate may be upon the spot, that police would, I should con- ceive, in most cases, be able to prevent such Europeans penetrating into the country ; but not having been a magistrate, I cannot answer more correctly to this point 5 the difficulty of preventing it would be increased or diminished by the boldness or numbers of the parties who desired to penetrate. What, in your opinion, would be the effect on the general character, respectability, and efficiency of the Company's army, if the regiments of European EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 105 European infantry in the Company's service were to be reduced, and if the Lieut.- ('"fond Company's infantry were to consist of natives alone ? — My opinion upon Sir J. Malcolm. this subject is more particularly formed upon an intimate knowledge of v % 1 the feelings and character of the army of the coast of Coromandel than any other of the establishments, though I have seen and served with all: I think that the character and feelings of the officers of the Company's army have been injured by a former reduction of the European part of the establishment, and that that injury to their feelings and to their cha- racter and respectability would be added to, and indeed completed, by the reduction of the remainder; and that a more serious injury could not be inflicted, thaft one which added to a distinction which has often pro- duced jealousy, I mean King's and Company's, that of European and native. You have stated the effect upon the Company's officers generally ; in your opinion, if that measure were adopted, what would be the effect upon the European officers attached to the native infantry, in particular ? — The effect which I have described, would be most felt certainly by the officers of the native infantry. "What would be the effect on the native commissioned officers and sepoys ? — Any measure which tended in any shape or way to lower the character and diminish the respectability of European officers with them- selves, must in course be gradually communicated to the men under their command. Were not the sepoy corps in the French service in India, a distinct branch of their military establishment, separate from the regiments of the line ? — They were. Was there any difference in the character and efficiency of the sepoy corps in the French service in India, and those in the service of the Company; and if there was, state the caues which occasioned that dif- ference ?- — The sepoys in the French service in India were always deemed inferior to those in the British service ; the leading causes I conceive to be, that the service was deemed inferior to the European officers, who in consequence wanted thar military pride which is essential to the cha- racter of a soldier; I also conceive a difference may have arisen from the French officers never having attended so much to the prejudices and cha- racters ot the men under their command, as has been the habit in the English service, indeed I know this fact from frequent observations made by old sepoys. Are 10* MrNUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut.- Colonel Arc not the native corps in the Company's service supplied with staff Sir J. Malcolm. Serjeants from the Company's European infantry ? — They used to be en- v < v —^ tirely supplied with staff servants frona the Company's European infantry, but since that has been reduced so luw, it has been unequal to furnish a sufficient number of good men tor that purpose, and they have been ca- sually supplied from His Majesty's regiments serving in India. As the men of the Company's European corps are raised for the service of India only, and look forward to promotion in the native corps, are they induced to conform more to the manners and prejudices of the natives, than the men of His Majesty's regiments? — From having served in an European corps in the Company's service for three years, 1 can answer positively that they are, from the causes stated in the question. Is not the selection of serjeanrs, for the duties of the native corps, infi- nitely more particular than even for the European regiments ? — N doubt it is; the internal arrangements of a native battalion depend in a certain degree upon the efficiency and good character of the staff European Ser- jeants. Have the Company's regiments of European infantry been found equal to the performance of the services required of European troop ? — I be- lieve they have, on every occasion : I never heard o; their tailing to dis.- tinguish themselves, where an opportunity was given. Are not the European officers in the native corps, from the circumstance of their not sitting as members of regimental courts martiai for the trial of natives, deprived of an opportunity ot practically learning the irnpoir* tant duties of courts martial ? — They certainly are, "Would any advantage result to the public service if the Company's establishment of European troops, cavalry as we LI as infantry, was on such a scale as to admit of the officers, on first entering into the army, being attached tor a certain period of time to an European regiment, previously to their being permitted to join the native corps ; and was it not formerly invariably the practice of the service, for officers to be appointed to Euro- pean regiments, on their arrival in India? — Certainly there would be great advantage : I know no measure that has tended more to affect the temper of our native troops than the introduction of young officers, unac- quainted with their languages and prejudices: the governments of the different presidencies in India have felt this so much, that they have endeavoured, by the establishment of military seminaries, to avoid its incon. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 105 inconveniences; but all these have, I believe, failed from a want of Lieut. -Colonel discipline, and indeed the great difficulty, in a country like India, of Sir J. Malcolm. keeping a number of young officers assembled together in order ; such v ■ > ■ » v ' would not only be kept in order in European corps, but be instructed in many most essential points of discipline. Besides those advantages, would it not tend to remove the prejudice against the natives, which many persons, more particularly young men, entertain on their arrival in India, and thereby better qualify the officers who had been in an European regiment for the command of native troops ? —Certainly the longer persons remain in India, the more, generally speaking, their prejudices against the natives wear away ; the officers so appointed would not be so likely to give offence to the prejudices of their men, as if they had been nominated to an European regiment on their first arrival ; but I am not sure that I distinctly understand this question. By being for a certain time in an European regiment, does not an officer get rid of his prejudices before he is sent to command native troops? — Most certainly, in most cases this would be the case. Would it be advantageous in a military point of view, as well as with a view to economy, to have the regiments of Europeans in India com- pleted by filling up the casualties with recruits, or to have them occasion- ally relieved by entire regiments?- — It, no doubt, would be most economical to have them filled up with recruits, and the regiments would always continue more efficient; as any new regiment coming entire from England is unfit for service for, I may say, a twelvemonth at least. Did not Lord Cornwallis in 1794 recommend to His Majesty's ministers a plan for new modelling the army in India?— He did, in a letter to the President of the Board of Controul. Was not one of the principal objects of the plan, to prevent the conr tinuance or revival of those discontents and jealousies which had so often manifested themselves between the King's and Company's troops, as well as between the servants belonging to the different presidencies ? — It was j I believe his Lordship, as far as my memory serves, stated as much in the very words of the question. Did not Lord Cornwallis deem it essential that the new regulations should be calculated to inspire hopes of" promotion and public distinction, JP which 106 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieu'. -Colonel ^y'ujch his Lordship conceived would operate beyond all other incitements oirJ. Malcolm, \ n ca ]ji n g- f ort h the exertions of military men ? — His Lordship stated those to be his sentiments, in his dispatch, at least as far as my memory serves. --V- Did the regulations which were framed in 179G, extend their benefits equally to the three presidencies ? — They did not, I recollect particularly, because I was military secretary to Sir Alured Clarke, who at the period of their introduction was commander-in-chief at Fort St. George ; and I remember that officer writing a minute, in which he pointed out this dis- tinction in the strongest manner, and predicted that the most evil con- fluences would result from it, with respect to the feelings of the army of that settlement. Has not a preference been shown to the officers of His Majesty's service in India, in the distribution of military commands ? — I have often heard such a preference complained of, but cannot charge my memory with any precise facts that would enable me to give an opinion at this moment upon its justice; but I know it was considered at various periods as a grievance among the officers of the Company's army. Is not the rank of the Company's officers confined to that of major- general ? — It is. Has any Company's officer, since the regulations of 1796, been specially appointed commander-in-chief at any of the presidencies in India? — I believe not one. Has any mark of honour or public distinction been bestowed by the Crown on any officer of the Company's army, for military services? — I have no recollection of any such mark or distinction within thirty years, except one: the dignity of baronet was granted to Sir John Brathwaite, when he was superseded by a junior officer of His Majesty's service in India from the command of the army of Fort St. George, to which he had been provisionally appointed. What, in your opinion, has been the general effect produced upon the minds of the Company's officers, by their exclusion from the higher stations in India, and from those marks of honour and public distinction, which are usually the rewards of eminent military services? — I believe such exclusion has, beyond all other causes, tended to damp that ardour and high military feeling, which are always essential to the character of an officer, but, above all others, of officers so situated as those in the Company's EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS tOY Company's service are in India; I believe that it has diminished the am- Lieut.' Colonel bition, and almost extinguished the hope, with regard to military fame Sir J. Malcolm. and rank, in all classes of that service ; that they have in consequence ' "v ' sunk in their own estimation, as well as in that of the troops under their command, and of the inhabitants of the country in which they serve ; I am also satisfied that this cause alone is competent to defeat all the be- nefits that were intended by the regulations ot 1796, which proposed a fair equality between the two services. Do you think that the character and credit of His Majesty's forces in India stand in the estimation of the native powers in as high a degree of respect as those of any part of the Company's troops? — I do certainly think that it does ; and my answer to the last question was meant to convey, that the operation of the system established was calculated to raise it still higher, not upon its own merits' (which, God. knows, are as high as possible) but upon the depression of the other service. I neglected to answer one part of the question connected with the European troops, which was, that I was convinced the feelings cherished by the Company's officers were for a system that would produce emulation with His Ma- jesty's troops, not jealousy ; and that if they felt the loss of Europeans, it was because they had lost, among other things, the power and oppor- tunity of competing for honest fame, in the front of the battle and in the breach, with His Majesty's officers serving in India, from which they are in some degree excluded, as European troops are in general emploved upon services of the greatest glory and danger. It seems impossible but that officers with that advantage which the circumstance of their command- ing Europeans gives them, must feel a superiority, and the other service must feel a consequent depression. I wish to say in explanation, that all the officers in His Majesty's service, who have since 1796 held stations of principal command in India, are persons for whom I have the highest respect, and with all of whom I am personally acquainted, I feel bound to many of those officers by ties of gratitude and friendship ; and I believe there never was a series of officers selected which did more honour to those by whom they were nominated ; but it is a much easier task to show their high merits than to calculate the evil effects upon a whole service, by an exclusion which banishes all hope from their breasts of ever attaining the highest ranks in the service of their country. Do you think that any bad effects would arise from uniting the two ser- vices in one, and from incorporating the Company's army with that of the King ? — I conceive that the bad effects which I have pointed out, from any service in India being exclusively native, would be equally felt, whether P 2 that 108 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE L'eut.-Colonel that service belonged to the Crown or the Company ; and I conceive OJ J. Makvltn. there are many and numerous difficulties in the way of any arrangement *— -y to connect a local service for India with the European army of England. You have stated in a former part of your evidence, that the wealthy inhabitants of the presidencies of India, namely, Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay, are in the habit of purchasing European goods ; are those pur- chases so made from the predilection which they have for such articles, or are they not most frequently made to gratify and to please Europeans ? — I believe they are in general made either for the purpose of gratifying and pleasing Europeans, or to satisfy vanity or curiosity ; some, no doubt, are articles of use, and purchased lor that purpose ; I speak at present of tlic most wealthy. Supposing such, motives not to exist, do you think that the purchase of European articles by natives of India at the presidencies, would be to any great extent ? — It would be certainly greatly diminished from what it is at present, by the extinction of such motives. Are there not in Calcutta, Madras, Bombay, and in the provinces of Bengal and Bahar, many mechanics, tradesmen, and planters, who are considered as colonists in those places ? — There are many s-ucb persons resident in the places described ; but I can hardly conceive persons can be considered as colonists, whose residence depends from day to day upon the toleration of the British government in India, and that is the situation of most of those persons. Can you form any estimate of the number of persons described in the last question, who may be distributed in the places mentioned ?— I do not recollect it at present, though there is a regular register of their names in the common calendar of the Bengal presidency. Do they amount to thousands r — Certainly not thousands. Reckoning in all the places r — I should conceive not. Have not many of the natives learnt from those persons the improve- ments and arts of civil life ? — Many of the natives have learnt from such persons mechanical arts, but few, if any (if I am to understand that the question refers to our Mahomedan and Hindoo subjects), have at all •changed their usual modes of life. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 100 Do you apprehend that any serious evils would arise from an increase of Lieut. -Colonel the number of such persons' in India as have been described r— It would Sir J. Makolin. entirely depend upon the character of such persons, and the restraints im- posed upon them. Do not you think that the advance of the natives of India in every branch of useful knowledge, will be in proportion to the means and ex- ample which we may afford them, by the residence of such persons as have been described in India ?-— I certainly do conceive that their ad- vance in every branch of useful knowledge, will be in proportion to the examples and instruction they receive ; I mean by useful knowledge, an improvement in mechanical arts, manufactures, and every thing that tends to render them more happy and comfortable. Do not you think that it would be good policy in the British govern- ment to increase the means of information to the natives of India ; infor- mation such as you have described ? — I consider that in a state of so extra- ordinary a nature as British India, the first consideration of the government must always be its own safety ; and that the political question of governing that country must be paramount to all other considerations : Under that view of the case, I conceive every subordinate measure (and such I con- ceive that referred to in the question) must be regulated entirely by the superior consideration of political security. Might not an increase in the knowledge of useful arts in the natives, conveyed by British subjects resident in India, tend to strenghen the British government in India r — I conceive that such knowledge might tend in a considerable degree to increase their own comforts and their enjoyment of life ; but I cannot see how it would tend in any shape to strengthen the political security of the English government in India, which appears to me to rest peculiarly upon their present condition. State your opinion, by what means an attachment to the British govern- ment in India, might be promoted in the minds of the natives of India?— By continuing to govern them with mildness, moderation, and justice. Has it come to your knowledge that very serious affrays have taken place between large bodies of the natives of India, in consequence of disputes between the indigo planters, in the interior of the country ? — I have heard of such ; there was one particularly shocking case, in which Mr. Arnott, an indigo planter of Bengal, was murdered, a few years ago. Have HO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut .-Colonel Have the European indigo planters been the ostensible persons in occa- pir J. Malcolm, sioning such affrays ? — I have not such a minute knowledge as enables me ' v ' to give an answer to that question; in the case i stated, general report spoke Mr. Arnott to be a very violent man. Do r,ot you believe that if many Europeans were settled in the interior of the countrv, such affravs as have come to vour knowledge, would be likely to take p'ace ? — They would I conceive be more numerous, from an increased proportion of persons liable to be engaged in them. State the nature of such disputes and affrays ? — I really have not the means of answering that question. State the number of Indians who meet to contest the disputes between such individuals ; are there not hundreds sometimes? — I have not that minute information regarding this subject as will enable me to give a satis- factory answer to this question. You have alluded to one particular instance of an affray between planters and the natives ; state how the Europeans, not in the service of the Company in India, have generally conducted, themselves, whether peace- ably and quietly, or otherwise ?— If by that question is meant the Euro- peans at the different principal settlements in India, not in the service of the Company, which are the class with whom I am best acquainted, those are divided into different communities, the principal of them, that is, the gentlemen, agents, and British merchants are (as far as my knowledge goes) a class of men not exceeded, in all the qualifications by which men iri their condition of life are distinguished, by any in the world ; and I never heard of any conduct on their part, that was not such as belonged to their characters. The other Europeans at the different presidencies, are of various characters, and the lever parts of them are I conceive kept in order by the severe restraints of the government, and the courts of justice established at those presidencies, in the same manner as in all other societies. Can you name any or! er instance than that to which you have alluded, of an affray having taken place between any European and the natives of India, in the interior or otherwise ? — I have heard of several quarrels ; not of any person being murdered, but Mr. Arnott. Do you thii it likely that any of the native powers in India would, under existing circumstances, entertain Euiopeans in their service, in defiance EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1 1 1 defiance of their treaties with the British government? — I do not think L>'eiit.- Colonel that those who have entered into such treaties would. Sir J. Malcolm, v v ' Are you aware of any native power in India, which has not entered in- to such treaty ? — None of the larger powers ; there are a great number of the lesser powers which have not entered .nto such treaties. Have the goodness to mention them ? — I cannot recollect all the lesser states of India with whom we have no engagements, but we have treaties with the higher states in India, by which Europeans are excluded, such as the Nizam of the Deccan, the Peishwah, the Rajah of Mysore, Scindiah, and I believe the Rajah of ^"Jerar. Do you consider any of the powers in India, with the exception of the Rajah of Berar, as independent of British government ? — 1 hat is a diffi- cult question for me to answer ; by the treaties with several of those princes, thev certainly cannot be considered as dependents of the British govern- ment. Are there not many European officers in the Nizam's service, appointed with the concurrence of the British authority at his court ? — There are I believe some : their numbers are not at present very considerable, though I have not the means of knowing how ma a my. Have not you heard of some respectable officers from the King's army having been sent out, for the purpose ot going into the Nizam's service, with the permission of the British Government ? — I do not recollect the name of such an officer (except it was Major Frazer ) ; but I believe there is an officer in the Company's army, in charge ot some part of the Nizam's infantry j and the system is not unusual, as at the siege of Ssringapatam, I commanded myself all the regular infantry of that state. Are not you of opinion that if any Europeans were to be landed from British ships at any of the ports on the peninsula of India, and to find their way into the interior, they would be immediately taken up and sent to one of the three presidencies ? — It depends a great deal upon what part of the interior they penetrated into. Could such Europeans land on anv part of the coast of the peninsula, to go into the interior, without going through part o£the British dominions, or a country subject to the treaties of which you have spoken? — They could land in no such pori, except on an inconsiderabje tract of country between 1 1 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lie fit. -Colonel between Bombay and Goa, subject to the Rajah of Kolapore, who is not Sir J. Malcnltn. pledged by alliance (as far as I know) with the British government to pre- ^ v— . — ' vent any Europeans landing in his country ; and I have known instances where such were permitted to penetrate into his country. If such Europeans were entertained by that tajah, could it be produc- tive of any serious inconvenience or danger to the British interests in India ? — I do not think that rajah has any power that can ever be a subject of serious alarm ; how far he might possibly have the means of sending such persons further into the interior, I cannot possibly say. Into what states would he be likely to senr such persons, as far as you can form an opinion ? — -I cannot say that his disposition would lead him either to receive them, or to send them to any states ; but, perhaps, the only part where any Europeans could be of any danger, would be in join- ing Meer Cawn,or the person who has in his hands what remains of the power of Jeswunt Rao Holkar. Is it at all probable that any number of Europeans, say even a dozen, would find their way to Meer Cawn, without being intercepted, either by the British authorities or some of the states with which we are in alliance, and with whom those treaties exist ? — I do not think it probable ; there would be more difficulty if they went in a body of even twelve, than if they went singly. Is it not usual for the private merchants residing in India, to employ native agents more frequently than Europeans, in their commercial trans- actions with the natives in the interior ? — I believe they do, but I have not the means of particularly knowing the fact. Would not the European adventurers in this country, be likely to find it more convenient and more advantageous to employ natives, than to go into the interior themselves ?~That would, I conceive, depend much upon the part of India to which they had resort ; as far as my experience went, more Europeans resorted to the interior in Bengal, than in all the other parts of India put together ; but I cannot from my own knowledge, precisely judge of the motives that would operate on the minds of such adventurers as are described. Are not the European articles sent from India to Persia necessarily in- voiced very high, from going through so many hands before they reach that country ? — As far as I could judge, a great deal of that trade was carried EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 113 carried on by the native merchants of Persia, and by the Arabs of Muscat, Lien I.- Coloucl and by Armenians, many of whom were resident at i>ushire "and Bussora. Sir J. Malcolm. Do not you think that if the situation of the natives of India were bettered, so as to afford them the means, they would be disposed to pur- chase such of our manufactures as might tend to promote their comfort ? — . If by being bettered, is meant improved in their circumstances, I have no doubt they would, in such case, purchase every comfort within their reach. Do not you think it possible in time to better the situations of the na- tives of India, in point of pecuniary circumstances? — I conceive such improvement in the condition of an empire so large as India, must be very gradual and very slow ; but such results may no doubt be expected from a long period of peace and good government. Do you not think that the revenue system of India might be improved ? — I never was employed in the revenue line, and am not sufficiently ac- quainted with the detail of that line to enable me to answer that question. Have you not heard the natives of India complain of the revenues and taxes being heavier than they could bear ? — I cannot charge my memory with hearing any particular complaints of this nature ; but I have no doubt complaints of payment to government are made in India, as well as in every other country in the world. You have no doubt often read the Calcutta Gazette ;. state to the best of your recollection, how many columns of that paper arq usually filled with advertisements for the sale of lands to pay rents ? — I, believe such ad- vertisements to be very common, but cannot charge my memory with any knowledge whatever of their number or extent. Does not the supplement to the Calcutta Gazette very ofcen consist of two or three sheets filled with such advertisements? — J,Jiave no doubt, from the question being put, that it does ; but the advertisements in the Calcutta Gazette are some of them in Persian, and others in Bengalee, the latter of which languages I do not understand, and I have seldom or ever perused any of them, and therefore cannot state the fact particularly. Is not the native Christian population of India- very considerable, par- ticularly on the Western coast of the peninsula ? — I believe that the Chris- tian population is very considerable in all parts of India, where the Por- tuguese, Dutch, Danes, and French, were and are settled in India. Q You "V 1 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T.ienf .-Colonel You liave mentioned on a former night, that the natives of India were Sir J. Malcolm, getting into the habit of manufacturing articles, the same as those sup- > plied from this country ; do you think that articles so' manufactured are p.s good as those imported from Engiand ? — The tannery lately established at Madras, by an European gentleman of the name or Parry, who has va- rious assistants acquainted with that manufacture, has reached a very ex- traordinary degree of perfection ; leather pantaloons even for the horse artillery, are, 1 believe, manufactured there, also gloves of very excellent description ; and I have heard, within the last two years, there is a to- lerable glass manufactory established at Madras ; the carriages made at Calcutta are, J believe, generally speaking, preferred to those sent out from England, though many of the materials are imported from this coun- try ; the furniture is also excellent ; and silver plate is manufactured by Europeans, as well as many other articles ; and I am not aware that there are any circumstances of climate which can make a difference in the pro- duction of equally good mechanics, in any of the manufactures I have stated. Do you think that the natives of India are likely to rival us in their manufacture of woollens, cutlery, and other hardware ? — In India they have no wool fit for the manufacture, and therefore can never rival us in that; I have seen articles of cutlery, and even brass instruments, made in very considerable perfection, the latter was at the Gun-carriage Yard in Seringapatam, where European superintendants have instructed some of the half-cast artisans and natives to be very skilful workmen ; and I cannot myself understand (if there is no objection on the point of cli- mate) why the same persons that manufacture articles in England, if they have the materials in India, should not make them there. Is not a piece of woollen cloth almost the greatest present that you can make to a poor native of India, and the most acceptable ? — A piece of cloth is a very acceptable present to any native of India, and particularly ■to one who cannot afford to purchase it, as it furnishes him with warm clothing for the winter, if he is in a climate which requires such ; but if by " poor " is meant a person of the labouring class or lower community, I have seldom known such wear woollen cloths, except at the presidencies, and there chiefly those in the service of the Europeans ; such are often in the custom ot having jackets of that cloth. Is not the climate of India, for the greatest part of the year, such as to render woolien clothing very desirable in the night ? — The latitude of the Company's possessions in India extend, I believe, from 10 and 11 to EA3T INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 115 to upwards of 30 degrees north latitude, and the climate varies still more Liettt.-Cvhmd from the elevation ot different countries, than it does from different de- Sir J. Malcolm. grees of latitude ; many parts of India, no doubt, are cold in the winter, ' Y ' and in such, woollens must be a desirable wear to those who can afford to buy them. Do you think there is a probability of any materially increased con- sumption of British manufactures in Persia, conveyed thither through the medium of India ? — I do not think there is, as the markets for such articles at Bombay, and other places in India to which Persian merchants resort, are abundantly supplied, and there is no difficulty in the intercourse. Do you think that, notwithstanding the Company's orders, forbidding the ingress of Europeans into British India without a licence, the number of unlicensed Europeans has considerably increased there ? — It has, I believe, increased to a very great extent, particularly Bengal. Supposing free trade to give legally a very large admission to Europeans into India, do you think, from what you have already observed of the propensity of that race to resort to India, that an increased number of them would endeavour to go there, though not entitled by the new regu- lations to do so ? — I certainly think, from what I observed, that there is' a great disposition in a variety of persons to resort to India ; and I have 6eldom known, among the lower classes particularly, any wish to leave it after they have resided there some time ; this I conceive to result from the habits which they acquired in the country. By what means do you conceive it would be in the power of govern- ment to'controul the continually increasing mass of European population, and to keep them from entering by various channels into the interior of the country ? — I can conceive no other means, except an increased police, and the greatest exertions on the part of the government to prevent that evil. If the natives who compose the police establishments in India, or if even the regular sepoys, were called forth to quell the insubordination of Europeans, or to take them into custody, would not this exercise of native force over Englishmen be likely to degrade the latter in the eyes of the Indian people, and to reduce the respectability of the government of the English ? — Most certainly it would degrade the European character, and as every degradation of that character must tend in some degree to a diminution of that respect which it is most essential to support jn.ihe Q, 2 minds 116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. -Colonel minds of the natives towards the British nation, it Would (to a certain Sir J. Malcolm, degree) be an evil of the nature described in the question. You are doubtless aware of the permanent settlement of the lands in Bengal, by which they were made over in free property to the zemindar3 at one unalterable rent, and all the benefits of improvement and agricul- ture were, contrary to the former practice, left wholly to the enjoyment of the cultivators ? — I am aware of that settlement. Did not you understand that it was thought a necessary condition of this system, that to secure the rent of government against the improvi- dence or dishonesty of the zemindars, the land should be made answer- able for the rent, and, in case of defalcation, a portion of the land be sold for payment ? — I do know of such a regulation. Can you state whether it was from the improvidence or dishonesty of zemindars, that in general the sales have been produced ? — I have always heard that the permanent settlement was made at a very moderate assess- ment, and therefore conclude it must ha\e been from the improvidence or dishonesty of the zemindars, when such sales were made ; but never having been employed in that particular branch of the service, I cannot speak with minute knowledge to the question. Are you able to say whether advertisements in the Indian papers are not generally given, the same advertisements, in three or four different languages, and repeated in three or lour successive papers ? — I believe they are. [The Witness was directed to withdraw. The Chairman was directed to report Progress; and ask leaye to sit again. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 117 Jovis, 8" die Aprilis 1813. Whitshed Keene, Esq. in the Chair. Major-General ALEXANDER KYD, was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Jachon.~] — How long have you been in the service of the East- Major General India Company? — I have served the honourable East-India Company d exanderKyd, thirty-nine years, nearly thirty four years of which I resided in India. I — -^ > To which of the military establishments did you. belong ? — To the military establishment of Bengal. Be pleased to describe your present post or station ? — I now hold the office of chief engineer upon, that establishment. How long have you been returned from India ?. — About two years and a half. Be pleased to describe the parts of India to which your duty has led you ? — In the course of my service I have been at nearly all the Com- pany's stations in the interior of Hindostan, and in many places in the Mahratta country ; I have also navigated the whole of the coast of Hindostan, from the Gulf of Cambay to the peninsula of Malacca, and on the west coast of Sumatra. Are you thus acquainted with both coasts of the peninsula of India ?— Both the Malabar and Corornandel coasts. Have you had an opportunity, from this extent of service through the various parts of India, of well acquainting yourself with the character of the natives, as to their habits, customs and prejudices, whether civil or religious 5 i 1 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major G ciieral religious ? — In the course of my professional avocations, I have had Alexander Kyd. much to do with the natives of Hindostan, in forming contracts for ma- v v 1 terials, and employing workmen for carrying on public works. Supposing from the circumstance of opening the trade from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter (Canton excepted) a considerable and indiscriminate influx of Europeans should take place, what effects do you apprehend might arise from that circumstance ? — The effects, I think, would be fraught with the greatest danger ultimately to the Company's possesions. Be pleased to state the reasons upon which you found such apprehen* sions ? — From the character of the lower class of Europeans, who, more especially upon their first going to India, hold the natives in the most sovereign contempt, and whenever they can have an opportunity, treat them exceedingly ill ; from another part of the character of the lower class of Europeans, that they are extremely addicted to spirituous liquors, whenever they can get them, and the vast facility there is in every market and village in Hindostan to obtain ardent spirits at a very trifling expense, and when intoxicated are apt to commit disturbances, and thus give a bad impression of the European character. Do you found these observations on any particular instances within your recollection ? — Upon innumerable instances. State any that happen to occur to you ? — During the time that I had occasion to carry on the public works, particularly at the fortress o£ Allahabad, where I was employed five or six years, I was permitted by government to get European overseers from the different corps of the army, and in general the best men were recommended to me ; but in a little time I found it so impossible to depute any sort of authority to those men, on account of their using the natives ill, that I was obliged to leave off employing them, and have recourse to native overseers j the same has happened in all public works that I have had occasion to carry on. When it has happened that soldiers have had leave to go any way into the interior, or have strayed from their garrisons, what effects have you noticed from such permission or absence ? — In general to get drunk, and to commit disturbances in the villages into which they go, to drive the natives cut of the villages, and to commit every species of disorder ; but government have established strict regulations, and commanding officers are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 119 are very careful to prevent their quitting the garrisons and cantonments, Major General on this very account. Alexander Kyd. Do you mean that the natives have been induced to desert their villages, from the alarm which they received in such cases as you have described ? — I have frequently seen the occurrence happen. Have offences to the natives, of a deep and serious nature, sometimes arisen from the inadvertence or ignorance of new comers ? — Frequently, I dare say, from the inadvertence of new comers, especially in their interfering unwarily in their religious ceremonies ; a very melancholy instance of that happened just before I left Bengal, to two young gen- tlemen that had just entered the service : From the cantonments of Mut- tra two young cavalry officers went to the temples of Binderbund, near that place, where there were a great number of monkies, which the natives about their temples hold in a certain measure sacred ; those young gentlemen were inadvertently induced to shoot at the monkies, in conse- quent of which, the whole of the officiating priests, and a number of fakeers that were round, rose, and with stones and clods of earth obliged the young gentlemen, who were upon an elephant, to take to the river Jumna, which they endeavoured to cross, and perished in the attempt : It was entirely from ignorance in those young gentlemen, that the monkey in such a situation was held sacred, that they were guilty of this impru- dent act. Have you observed that affronts towards the natives have much de- pended upon the rank or station of the Europeans in their neighbour- hood ? — I think the natives of Hindostan are in general very forbearing, and receive affronts even from the lower classes of Europeans with much more temper than could be supposed. Do you think the danger described would be more or less, according to the rank and station of the Europeans in the neigbourhood being higher or lower ? — I think that they would consider an affront more from a higher class of Europeans ; but 1 think it is less probable that it would happen, for the gentlemen in the Company's service in India, I think, are particularly cautious not to give the natives any affront. Do you mean to say that persons of a lower condition are much less cautious, or are incautious ? — They are certainly much more incautious, from the reasons I have stated before, that they arc guilty of too much intemperance* 1-0 MLWTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major-General intemperance, and when they are intoxicated, they know not what Alexander Ki/d. they do. If the new adventurers, in consequence of this universal and unlimited opening of the trade, were to consist of such persons as seamen, traders, I artisans, do you apprehend that the dangers which you have de- scribed would be increased in any material degree ? — Certainly in a very c . ree; were they permitted to visit all the port, in the vast ex- ten Jed coasts within the Company's dominions in India, they would com- mit disturbances without end. ,'ng them to have the licence, not only of going directly to every port within trie limits of the Company's Charter, but to proceed from port to port according to their discretion, do you believe that such per- sons could be restrained from penetrating into the interior ? — I think it is impossible ; the extent is so great that the government could not pos- sibly guard it at all points, with every precaution they could take. Be pleased to state what regulations you have in contemplation in that answer, and how yoj think such regulations could be evaded? — The only regu'ations that government could adopt, would be to send a force and est btish a police at every port where those people could possibly land in pushing a trade ; and I do not think that government would be able to do it : on the Malabar coast alone, during the north east monsoon, from Cape Comorin to the Gulf of Cambay, either in our own possession or that of our allies, the points where they might land, are I may say without number. Is not the whole of either of those coasts, namely, Coromandel and Malabar, a general roadstead without harbours ? — The coast of Coroman- del is in general an open roadstead without harbo'irs, and there is con- sole: able diihcu'ty in landing on that coast on account of the surf, but at such places where proper boats are provided ; but on the Malabar coast there are* a great variety of rivers and openings, into which small vessels can run, and there are some good harbours. Supposing it to be the object of European adventurers to get into the interior, are there not modes of concealing themselves in covered vessels proceeding up the different rivers, which vessels, from respect due to the natives, are not regarded as the objects of search ? — There are none of the rivers in the peninsula of Hindostan that are navigable for boats to any distance, but the Ganges, falling into the Bay of Bengal. Applying EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR . 15 i Applying the question to the Ganges, be pleased to answer it ? — I do Major -General not think, that Europeans could with much ease conceal themselves in Jlcxandbr Kyi. boats in going up the Ganges ; there is a very strict river police es'a- ( v S blished on the Ganges, in the first p'ace, to guard against the smuggling of opium from Patna, and also the smuggling of salt from Bengal ; there are also guard-boats at almost all the stations, to examine boa's, to pre- vent Europeans going up ; and if government cho3e to make that river police still stricter, 1 do not think that Europeans could possibly get up the Ganges without the permission of government. Besides the ports within the authority of the Company, on either coa^t to which you have referred, are there not ports and places without the limits of the British authority, through which adventurers might make their way into the interior of India ? — There is a small independent Mahratta district, I forget its name just now (Culipore, I think) to the southward of Bombay, where Europeans might land, and might certainly penetrate into that district, and from thence probably into the Mahratta territories. Supposing any material number of new adventurers, either from elud- ing the vigilance of government, or from any of the means to which you have referred, to make their way into the interior of India, what do you apprehend might be the effect of such ingress? — I do not think the na- tives in any situation would allow Europeans in a body to penetrate into the country, it is only straggling Europeans that are likely to make their way. Supposing them not to proceed in a body, but stragglers, by degrees so to make their way, what then is your opinion of the effect ? — 1 do not perceive what could be their object in thus penetrating, I do not know what the effect would be. Supposing such stragglers to be of a military description, might it not be their object to assist in disciplining the native troops? — They then would most likely enter into the service of independent states, for the purpose of disciplining their troops, as has already very frequently taken place ; but at this period there is no state in the interior of Hindostan with whom we are not in alliance, only the Mahratta chief Meer Cavvn, who has what remains of the authority of Holkar. Are there not a considerable number of smaller states, in different parts of India, with whom the East India Company is not yet in a state of R such 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major-General such alliance as to preclude the employment of such persons, if the native Alexander Kyd. chiefs or princes were so disposed ? — There certainly must be a great v ^ -J number of independent chiefs who are thus situated. Do not the Company at present, and within your experience, generally speaking, maintain such strict authority over their servants, and those settled by their immediate permission, as to prevent such affront or an- noyance to the natives as you have referred to ? — They certainly do. Do not all their servants enter very young into their service ? — They all do, both military and civil. Is not among their first enjoined objects the learning the language of the natives, so as to be able to communicate with them ? — It is what they are immediately employed in upon their arrival, at all the settlements. Is it the same with respect to the officers who are introduced into the native battalions ? — Exactly ; there has been a seminary some time ago established, where they are taught some part of their military duty, and the language of Hindostan. Have not early acquaintance with the native language, and the strict injunctions upon these young men to regard with the deepest respect the prejudices, religious and civil, of the natives, generally speaking, pro- duced extreme good order among those descriptions of persons ? — I think that it has produced great good conduct and order in the whole of the Company's civil and military servants. Would then an influx of new adventurers, ignorant of their language as well as of their manners and their superstitions, be very likely to give great and considerable offence to both their manners and superstitions ?— A great influx of such Europeans would doubtless lead to great disorders of every kind. Are British European subjects, in case of having oppressed or mal- treated a native, amenable to justice but at one of the three courts of Cal- cutta, Madras, or Bombay ? — I have understood that they are amenable only to those courts, and that in cases where, at a great distance from Calcutta, they have been guilty of any disorder or any maltreatment of a native, which has caused a complaint, that they are obliged, with very great inconvenience, to be sent down to Calcutta. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 123 Are not many of the stations distant even some hundreds of miles from Major-General cither of the three courts ? — There are some stations in the northern parts Alexander KyJ. of the Douab which are above a thousand miles from Calcutta. i— — v J Assuming the earnings of the great mass of the natives to be from three to five shillings a month, do you think it possible for such a man to repair to Calcutta, or either of the other courts, for the purpose of obtaining jus- tice, whatever may have been the degree of his oppression or maltreat- ment ? — It would be impossible for him to do it, if he paid his own ex- penses. Supposing, from a materially increased number, affronts and offences should greatly increase, and the natives thus be deprived of the means of legal redress, what do you apprehend might be the consequence with respect to those natives ? — I think before any ill consequences could take place, the government would find it necessary to make Europeans ame- nable to the native courts. Be pleased to describe, as nearly as you are able, the nature and consti- tution of such native courts, and by what code of laws they are governed ? — I am not very well acquainted with the judicial branches of the service, but I have understood that the native courts are under the superintendence of the Company's servants particularly instructed in that line ; and that the natives of each religion, the Mussulmen and the Hindoos, are tried by their own laws. Do you then mean, by making an European amenable to the native courts, that they should be tried either by the Hindoo laws or by the Ma- hometan code, according to the circumstances of the case, whether the party prosecuting be Mussulman or Hindoo ? — I can see no other expe- dient, but to try them by those laws. Be 'pleased to say what effect, in your opinion, a succession of such trials would produce upon the general opinion of the European character, with regard to its superiority ? — It certainly would tend very much to degrade it. What consequence do you apprehend from such degradation ? — That the natives would soon hold the European character in more contempt. Do you regard a directly contrary impression to that which you have described as essential to the maintenance of the British empire in India ? — R 2 I un- 124- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE 'Major-General I undoubtedly think that the European character should be kept as high Alexander Kyd. as it possibly can in Hindosran, and therefore that on no account should * v ' low Europeans be permitted to mix much with the natives, which seems to have been universally the principle of the British government in India. Supposing tho?e who should speculate on going to India, under the pre- sumed act for opening the trade, should be disappointed in such specula- tion'!, do you apprehend that they would succeed in obtaining settlement in some part or other of India; or to what means might they have re- course to repair the loss which they shall thus have met with ? — I really know not; I very much fear that if small vessels were allowed to navigate to India in very great numbers, the losses that they would incur (which I am certain would necessarily happen) might lead some of them to commit depredations on the small native vessels, to make up their losses ; I think that is a consequence that would most probably follow from a very unre- strained intercourse of small vessels from the various ports of Great Britain, and Ireland. Do you mean, with regard to such vessels, that they would turn pi- rates ? — We know that upon former occasions, upon a disappointment in trade, piracies did take place; and I think it was in the reign of King William that there was an establishment of pirates at Madagascar, under a pirate of the name of Avery, who assembled many vessels there, and committed depredations on the coast of Malabar and other parts of India. Is not piracy also much practised in the eastern seas by the natives?— In the eastern Archipelago, and on the coast of Borneo, there are a great number of piratical vessels, that will never fail to endeavour to overpower vessels that are not extremely well armed. Is it the habit of the police peons, or constables, to search that pgrt of the bo its going up the Ganges, which is appropriated to the women of the Mahomedans ; and might not adventurers, under some such pretence or concealment, make their way for several hundred miles up the country ?— IN j, I do not think they could; I do not think that any contrivance of that kind would answer in the present state of the Company's police on the river Ganges. Be pleased to state, from the experience which you have derived from so general a residence in India, whether you are of opinion it is probable that, in the case of thus opening the trade, there will be any material increase in the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 125 the consumption or purchase of European articles among the natives of Major General India ? — T by no means think there will ; I believe the great consumption Alexander Kyd. of European articles is now, as it almost ever has been, by the Europeans * y — ~" J themselves ; that consumption has within these thirty years past very much increased, but that, I conceive, has been chiefly owing to the great in- crease of European inhabitants and their descendants, who have the same habits and use the same articles as their fathers. About the time I men- tioned, there were only two king's regiments in India, at present there are twenty ; our military establishments have more than doubled, as I imagine has also the civil service ; this vast increase of European inhabitants, there- fore, fully accounts for the increased consumption of European articles. Have not also the European residents out of the Company's service, but residing with their express permission, materially increased in number ? — They have also very materially increased ; abour twenty years ago there were not more than five or six hundred Europeans not in the Company's service, in thr who:e of Bengal ; three years ago, when I left India, there were nearly two thousand in Bengal only. Has not the apparent amount of British exports very much increased, from the progressive rise in the price of the articles exported ? — The great increased price of articles in England, must of course show a greater ge- neral amount for the same quantity of articles. Be pleased to give your reason for thinking that among the natives no particular increase of European consumption will take place ? — Because the general class of the lower order of the natives have it not in their power to purchase those articles, even if they had the inclination ; and the superior class of the natives have manufactures of their own that they are more attached to than ours, and therefore have no great inclination for them : broad cloth, the useful metals, watches, some articles of ornament, mostly ubed at the principal settlements, such as looking glasses, framed prints, lustres, and a small quantity of hardware, is all that I know the natives of Hindostan wish to take from us. Do you know what or whereabouts is the estimated native population of Calcutta ? — There have been various opinions upon the population of Calcutta, but I do not believe there has ever been a very correct census made. Sir Henry Kussell a very few years ago declared, upon an occasion from the bench, that the inhabitants of Calcutta and its environs amounted to one million ; I myself believe that there are between four and five hun- dred thousand. How 126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Majot -General xiovv j on g h aV e you been acquainted with Calcutta? — It is now forty- Alexander Kyd. one years since I first; visited Calcutta. « v > During the whole of that period, have you observed any increased pro- pensity in the natives to the adoption of European fashions, or the con- sumption of European articles ; or do they continue to adhere to the fashions and tastes which prevailed when you first knew them ? — I do not see a greater inclination in the natives at this time than there was when I first went to India; of course, from the increased number of in- habitants in Calcutta, there must be a great number of them that fall into our habits, but I suppose it is nearly in proportion to the number. Do you think that proportion is to the whole material or trifling ?— I think it is very trifling; the lower classes of the natives in Calcutta have retained their habits, as they do in every other part of Hindostan. Do they or not, in the interior, assimilate still less to the European tastes and habits ? — Infinitely less : in the other great towns of Hindostan that I have visited, there are very few of the natives that adopt our manners : at Lucknow, the late and the present Nabob of Oude have had a very singular taste for European articles ; the present Nabob Sadit Ali is the only native I ever knew who had a real taste for European conveniencies ; he has ex- cellent houses of his own building, well furnished, carriages, horses, a table well served in the European style, and every thing in as good style as any gentleman can have in this country ; with him it is matter of taste. Did even the taste of the prince in this country turn out to be influ- ential? — In a great measure it has, a number of his courtiers affect the same taste ; but I have reason to believe they secretly contemn it. Has the example of the courtiers been influential? — No, it has not spread further. Have you known such a fact in any other instance, or applying to any other settlement ? — No, I do not recollect any of the same kind. Does the fact which you have stated with respect to Calcutta, of the rifling proportion in which you state the European articles to be adopted, apply to such other stations. and seats of government as you may have visited ? — It does apply. State EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 127 State the articles which you allude to as indicating a conformity to Eu- Major-General ropean taste in the inhabitants of Calcutta, to whom you have referred ? — Alexander Kyd. Having in their houses chairs and tables, instead of sitting upon the <■ y ' ground ; having their walls ornamented with pictures and looking-glasses ; having lustres hung up; having, many of them, F.uropean close carriages ; but I do not think it extends to many other articles. Can you state whether more manufacture of European articles is pur- sued now in Calcutta and the other presidencies, than formerly ? — A great number of European artisans have established themselves in Calcutta, in Patna, at all our cantonments, at Lucknow, and almost all the great towns where there are Europeans, for carrying on the various manufactures of articles used by Europeans, such as carriages, furniture of all kinds, palan- keens of a peculiar construction invented by the Europeans, plate, sad- lery, boots and shoes, salting meats, in making guns and pistols, and a variety of other articles that I do not now recollect ; they have taught the native artificers, who are very acute and dexterous, to execute every article in a manner almost to emulate those that are sent from England : but I have to observe, that the whole of these manufactures is for the use of Europeans, as they can furnish them at a cheaper rate than those of the same kind imported from Europe; and I firmly believe that if we were by any means to leave Hindostan altogether, that they would entirely drop those manufactures, and employ themselves in carrying on their own. If in consequence of the proposed opening of the trade, the number of artificers should materially increase at those respective settlements, looking to the present skill of the natives as now described, and to the immense disproportion of labour between India and this country, do you think that in time such an ingress of artificers might not be the means of very much superseding the necessity for the importation of British manu- factures to India ? — It has already in a great measure superseded that necessity, and the increase of articles which have gone from this country has not been in proportion to the increase of the European population. Looking to the unlimited licence of ingress now proposed, and to the habits of the natives, according to your experience, do you think th^t such opening of the trade will be consistent either with the happiness of the natives, or with the security of the British interests in India ? — I do not think it can possibly be conducive to the happiness of the natives, and I think it would in a material degree risk our safety in that country. (Examined 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE (Examined by the Committee.) Major 'General Supposing the foreign possessions, Pondicherry, &c. &c. to be restored Alexander Kyd. at a general peace, would not a promiscuous admission of British subjects ( v ' to India render it next to impossible to prevent their access to the interior becoming very general, and also facilitate their entrance into the service of the native powers ? — Undoubtedly I think it would very much facilitate their entrance into the interior of the country, and in that event it would be much more dangerous than it is at this time. Supposing the trade opened to the eastern islands, the Moluccas and Banda, might not adventurers, English and other Europeans, settle in them; and being without controul, become pirates, and embroil Britain in serious difficulties in preserving a good understanding with the empire of China ?— There is no manner of doubt that there are many places in the eastern islands, where, by a conceited plan of a few European vessels, they could establish themselves and even fortify themselves in such manner, so as to give government much trouble in rooting them out; and during that time they would have an opportunity of committing great depreda- tions upon the eastern trade. Have you not known, in many instances, of vessels employed in the ■country trade of India, when trading to the Malay ports, that the ships ;ind cargoes have been seized, and the whole of the crews murdered, by the natives? — There is nothing so common, the thing has happened almost annually since ever I recollect; the ships that engage in the Malay trade, especially those that go to the coast of Borneo, are obliged to be very strongly armed, to be fitted out at great expense, to hire a military force of sepoys to protect them, with a very strong crew, and even then they are sometimes cut off, if they do not use the greatest precautions If the intercourse is enlarged by vessels from this country, do not you think that those accidents would much more frequently occur ? — I do not conceive that the possible profit would justify the expense of fitting out and arming a vessel from this country, to trade on the Malay coast; in the first place, I know of no articles that they could carry from Great Britain to the Malay coast, that would answer the purpose ; the whole of the articles of commerce with which the Malay trader supplies himself, I believe, are opium, a small quantity of piece-goods, and a peculiar species of silk known by the name of Mnggaduties; those arti- cles, with a few Lascar knives and red woollen caps, are the only articles that the Malays take from them ; I do not believe they indulge in Euro- pean EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. V29 pean articles in any way : I should therefore conceive tint any specula- Major-General tion from Great Britain directly to the Malay coast, would end in a Alexander Kyd. total loss. v "V- Are you acquainted with the coast from Cape Comorin to Adriampa- tam ? — I have passed along that coast, and have landed at several places, but I am not particularly well acquainted with that coast, I only know there is great facility in landing in the whole of it. Does not that coast abound with Poligar population, and have not the Poligars been always remarkable for their contempt of authority, and their attachment to arms ? — It is in general called the Poligar country, and ever since I have been acquainted with India, has been the scene of warfare and dissention. Do you know whether the Company's government have succeeded in restraining the violence of the Poligars, and diminishing their oppressions upon the people, by taking away their arms ? — I arn not acquainted with that circumstance. What effect do you think would be produced upon the peace of the country, and the British power there, if the Poligars had the means of procuring arms from private traders and private ships ? — The making them more turbulent and unmanageable than they are at present. In cases of crime or disobedience to the laws, committed upon the inhabitants upon that coast, or in the province of Tinevelly, by any Europeans landing on the coast or carrying on trade there, where must the European be conveyed for trial? — I should suppose, as in Bengal, to the presidency ; to Fort Saint George. What distance is that?— I should think between three and four hun- dred miles. Would not the spectacle of an European charged with a crime, and conducted by native sepoys through such an extent of country, tend to degrade the British character, and to encourage the disaffection and contempt of the native population ? — I think it would doubtless have that effect. If, to avoid those spectacles, the native courts, were empowered to try, S. Europeans, ISO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major- General Europeans, of whom would the jury on such trial be composed? — In Alexander Kyd. most cases it could only be composed of natives. What, in your opinion, would be the effect on the general character, respectability, and efficiency of the Company's army, if the regiments of European infantry in the Company's service were to be reduced, and if the Company's infantry were to consist of natives alone ? — I think, it would somewhat lower it in the scale of respectability. Were not the sepoy corps in the French service in India a distinct branch of their military establishment, separate from the regiments of the line ? — I have understood they weie. Was there any difference in the character and efficiency of the sepoy corps in the French service in India, and tho=e in the service of the Company? — Independently of the partiality that we must all have for our own service, I really think there was a very great difference ; I have been at Pondicherry, and have seen the French sepoys, and I think there was a veFy great difference. In what did that difference consist ? — In the superiority of discipline; Which had the superiority of discipline ? — The English sepoys, with* eut a doubt. Are not the native corps supplied with staff Serjeants from the Com* pany's European infantry ? — The native corps in Bengal have always been supplied from the European regiments : Since the reduction of two of the three regiments, and the third being almost annihilated for want of recruits, the want of staff Serjeants for the Bengal sepoys has been very severely felt ; they have had recourse to getting Serjeants from the King's regiments, who do not like to spare them, and seldom give them good men, or men so well suited for the service as those that have been brought up in the Company's European regiments, where they have had time to acquire the language, and be acquainted with the manners of the natives. As the men of the Company's European corps are raised for the service of India only, and look forward for promotion in the European corps, are they induced to conform more to the manners and prejudices of the natives than the men of His Majesty's regiments ? — Most undoubtedly, because being well acquainted with the languages and manners of the natiyes EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 131 natives was a sure mode of getting themselves recommended to be Major-General staff Serjeants in the sepoy corps, which is a very desirable situation. Alexander Kyd. Is not the situation of Serjeants for the. native corps infinitely more important than for the European regiments ? — Certainly, on very good staff" serjeants belonging to a sepoy corps, very much depends its disci- pline. Do you then consider a proportion of European infantry in the Com- pany's army essential to its character, respectability, and efficiency? — I have always thought so, and have always lamented since the two regi- ments were reduced in Bengal, and since so few recruits have been sent to the only remaining one as to have left it a perfect skeleton. Have the Company's regiments of European infantry been found equal to the performance of the services required of European troops ? — There were no corps that ever behaved better than the Company's European regiments in Bengal, Madras, and Bombay, on all occasions on which they have been tried. Have you had opportunities of judging from your own experience and personal knowledge of the conduct of the European infantry at sieges, particularly at Tellichery, Bangalore, Seringapatam, and other places, whether the Company's European infantry were not particularly distin- guished on those occasions ? — I had an opportunity frequently of judging of two of the Company's European regiments in the Mysore country, who were, without exception, the best troops for erecting batteries and carrying on works at a siege that I ever met with. Are not the European officers of the native corps, from the circum- stance of their not sitting as members of regimental courts martial for thetiial of natives, deprived of the opportunity of practically learning the important duty of courts martial? — When I first went to India, it -was an established custom that every English officer should serve some time in an European corps before he was changed to a sepoy corps; since that period a change has taken place in the service, by which officers are attached to particular corps, and rise in those corps ; and it is one of the inconveniencies of that system, that a young officer has not a very good opportunity of learning his duty so well as by the former system. Would it not then be very advantageous to the public service if the S 2 Company* 152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Major-General Company's establishment of European troops, cavalry as well as infantry, Alexander Kijd. was on such a scale as to admit of the officers, on first entering the army, \ -> being attached for a certain period of time to an European regiment pre- viously to their being permitted to join a native corps ? — It certainly would be exceedingly advantageous, if such a system could be con- veniently adopted, and would prevent the necessity of sending young officers to the several public seminaries that have been established for the purpose of their learning the language and part of their duty before they go to the corps, which it has been found very difficult to keep up, from the impossibility of keeping a number of young men thus assembled together in strict discipline. Would it not tend very much to remove that prejudice against the na- tives which young men on their first arrival in India entertain, and there- by better qualify them for the command of native troops ? — It would, I think, have that effect. Would it be advantageous in a military view as well as with a view to economy, to have the regiments of Europeans in India completed by filling up the casualties with recruits, or to have them occasionally reliev- ed by entire regiments ?— It would certainly be much better to have them continually filled up by recruits; an European regiment going to India, is at least a year before it is fit for field service. Was it within your personal knowledge whether the corps of royal ar- tillery, which arrived in India during the Mysore war under Lord Corn- wallis, was in a state of efficiency at Seringapatam ? — I recollect perfectly well a corps of King's artillery arriving under the command of Major Scott, as fine a body of men as probably ever were seen, I think they amounted to two hundred ; they were immediately sent to join the army at Seringapatam, but for want of servants, and of knowing how to sup- ply themselves with provisions, there were hardly ten men fit for service at the siege of Seringapatam. »•: » , Did not Lord Cornwallis in 1704 recommend to His Majesty's ministers a plan for new modelling the army in India ? — I recollect he did. Was not one of the principal objects of the plan to prevent the con- tinuance or revival of those discontents or jealousies which have so often manifested themselves between the King's and Company's troops, as well as between the Company's troops belonging to the different presiden- cies ? — That, I think, was one of the principal objects. Did EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 133 Did not Lord Cornwallis deem it essential that the new regulations Major-General should be calculated to inspire hopes of promotion and public distinc- Alexander Kyd. tion, which his Lordship conceived would operate, beyond all other in- * — — - y- ' citements, in calling forth the exertions of military men ? — He did so ; I think he expressed that in his letter to the Board of Controul on that subject. Did the regulations, which were framed in 1796, extend their benefit equally to the three presidencies ? — I have heard it complained, that Ben- gal was favoured in allowances. In point of fact, was not a distinction made in favour of Bengal ? — I have understood that it was ; the allowances in Bengal, I believe, have always been greater than they have been at the other presidencies. Has not a preference been shown to the officers of His Majesty's ser- vice in India, in the distribution of military commands ? — There has been great complaint of that, among the officers in the Company's service. Has any Company's officer, since the regulations of 17QO, been spe- cially appointed commander in chief at any of the presidencies in India ? — None, that I recollect. Has any mark of honour, or public distinction, been bestowed by the Crown upon any officer of the Company's army, for military services ? — None, that I recollect ; Sir John Kennaway was made a baronet, but that, I believe, was for his services in the diplomatic line. What, in your opinion, has been the general effect produced upon the minds of the Company's officers, by their exclusion from the higher stations in India, and from those marks of honour and public distinction which are usually the rewards of eminent military services ? — It certainly has been very depressing, and has caused them to leave the service when- ever they conveniently could. Is it not of essential importance that all the officers, whether superior er subaltern, employed in the sepoy service, should understand the cus- toms, languages, manners, and usages of the natives ? — It is certainly very essential : 1 have the pleasure to say, that I do not believe that there can be a finer set of officers than there is at present in the Bengal sepoy corps, or who know their dutv better, or are more acquainted with the manners of the people, or the languages of the country. Has 134 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Major-Gencral Has it happened within your knowledge, that the mutiny at Vellore Alexander Kyd. would probably have been prevented, had the officers in command of ^— — v~. i that fortress been acquainted with the native languages of the country ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with th-.t circumstance, to speak with certainty. You would not recommend any officer to be employed in the sepoy corps, who was not acquainted with the language, manners and customs of the sepoys ? — By no means ; and government have always taken great pains that they should be acquainted with the language ; they have a. seminary now established for that purpose. Are you acquainted with the coast of Malabar, to the northward of Goa ? — I have been along the coast of Malabar, to the northward of Goa, but I never landed at any port, except Fort Victoria ; I therefore cannot say that I am well acquainted with the coast. Does that coast in general belong to native powers ? — The greatest part of that coast belongs to native powers ; I stated that in a former part of my evidence. Would it not then be easy for ships from England to land any number of men in those ports ? — I have stated that circumstance in a former part of my evidence, particularizing that spot as not belonging to us, and where Europeans might land. Are you also acquainted with Cutch ? — I have never been so far to the northward upon that coast as Cutch ; but I know from circumstances that Europeans might land there, and penetrate into the interior of the country. Is not the rank of the Company's officers confined to that of major- general? — It unfortunately is. Have not major generals in His Majesty's service been promoted to the local rank of lieutenant general, in order to put them above major generals in the Company's army, who were senior to them, in order to entitle them to hold the command at the different presidencies ? — That has always been the case, whe.e such officers were appointed to com- mand in chief at any presidency ; we have had several major generals to command in chief at our presidencies, who of course had brevet rank of lieutenant general given to them. Does EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS: 135 Docs it not consist with your knowledge that General Brathwaite re- M ijor-General ceived a mark of honour from the Crown ? — I now recollect that he did ; Alevander Kyd. but I did not know that it was for military services, I conceived it was W on some family account. Did not the mark of approbation referred to, follow speedily after the siege of Pondicherry ? — I believe it did, and therefore I suppose it must then have been in consequence of his military services ; but the circum- stance had escaped me. When General Brathwaite was made a baronet, was it not in conse- quence of his being superseded by General Harris in the command of the army ? — I do not know that it was in consequence of that, but that circumstance did take place. From the disadvantages which the Company's army apparently labour under, of not being noticed by His Majesty's government and receiving rewards, would it not be desirable to incorporate the two services in one, and unite the Company's army with the King's ? — It is a very difficult point for me to decide upon ; there would be a great number of diffi- culties to surmount before that could be brought about, in whatever point of view it is taken. Do you know whether General Harris received any reward or mark of favour from His Majesty's government, for the siege of Seringapatam ? — He certainly has not> but I have understood that he might, had he chosen it. [The Witness withdrew. WILLIAM YOUNG, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Adam.~] —Have you not served the East-India Company in. their Jfr t ffi am Young, civil service ? — I have. Esq. During what period did you serve them in that capacity ? — From the year 1705 to the year 1786. To what rank did you rise in the service of the Company ? — I rose to the rank of senior merchant, and held that rank till I quitted the country. What ■"V" 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Young, What situations did you hold under the East- India Company ? — The Esq. first five years I passed in the accountant's office ; I was then sent on a v v ' particular commission to the districts to the south of Calcutta, where I was employed between one and two years ; I was afterwards collector of Tirhoor, in the province of Bahar, for some time ; and the rest of my time in the public service was as member of the provincial council of revenue at Patna. Had you an opportunity, in that period and in those services, to make full observation upon the nature of, the Indian character ? — I had; Had you an opportunity of making full observation upon the charac- ter of the Hindoos in particular ? — I think I had. Do you consider, from the opportunities you had of making observa- tions upon the character of the Indians, particularly the Hindoos, that an unrestrained influx of Europeans would be attended with evil conse- quences to that country ? — I think that it would be attended with very serious evil consequences. State to the Committee in what respect you consider that it would be attended with such consequences ?— From their violence, and from their ignorance of the usages, ways, and habits of the people, particularly with respect to their religious habits. Do you consider that it would produce bad consequences with respect to their habits in other respects, with respect to their habits of living, and their manners r — I presume that is in a great measure answered by my former answer. Do you conceive that the conduct of Europeans, if checked by the authority of the law, would have a bad effect upon the English authority over the Indian natives ? — I think that any punishment of Europeans in that country always has a tendency to degrade the British character in the opinion of the natives. Would the degradation of the British character arise from that con- flict that might take place between Europeans who might find their way into the interior of the country, not under the controul of government and the natives ?■ — I think that it would. Was the authority of the supreme court at Calcutta established at the time EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 13/ time you left India ?— It was established, I believe, twelve years before WUliam You , I left India. ^_ Es( h . Had you any opportunity of knowing whether Europeans have been brought to justice before the supreme court, for offences committed against natives? — I resided so short a time in Calcutta after the esta- blishment of the supreme court, that I had few or no opportunities of observing it. From the observation which you have made respecting the Indian cha- racter, do you conceive that the general bulk of the people are likely to become customers for European commodities ?— If by European com- modities is understood articles of merchandize, they are customers in some degree. In what degree are they customers ? — They purchase various articles imported by the East-India Company, such as broad cloth, long ells, and other sorts of woollen manufactures, also metals of various sorts ; but I recollect scarcely any thing else that they purchase. At the period of your residence in India, was the means of supply of those commodities, through the medium of the Company's ships, suffi- cient to answer the Indian demand? — I believe it was always most ample. Have you any reason to suppose, from the state of Indian manners at the time you left Bengal, that there was a likelihood of such an altera- tion as to produce an increased demand for European commodities ? — I do not think that there was ; the people appeared to me, when I left the country, precisely the same as they were when I arrived there. Have you any knowledge of the coast of India, sufficient to enable you to state to the Committee, whether, upon a free trade to every part of that coast, the Europeans who may go there in the way of trade, are likely to get into the interior ? — I possess no actual personal knowledge of the coast of India, never having been upon the coast of India, except at Madras, in my way out; but I possess that general knowledge of the subject, which a person residing in India any length of time must acquire. From that knowledge or information, what conclusion do you draw, with respect to the likelihood of Europeans finding their way into the interior ? — I should think it would be a thing of no great difficulty. T Have 138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Young, Have you had occasion to turn your attention in any respect towards Esq. arrangements or regulations necessary to prevent the ill consequences of ^— - — - v ' Europeans finding their way into the interior, or settling upon the coast ? — I have not; but I do not imagine a possibility of preventing it. (Examined by the Committee.) Have you sufficient knowledge of the state of the markets at Calcutta for British manufactures, to know whether there is or is not generally a super- abundance of British manufactures to be sold at Calcutta ? — In my time there was. Are there auctions frequently of British manufactures at Calcutta ? — I have frequently seen them. Are not those British manufactures frequently sold there under their prime cost ? — I have myself more than once purchased articles for less than they had cost in Great Britain. Are there not a number of private native merchants and British mer- chants there, who, if they could make any profit by buying those British manufactures at that reduced price, would purchase them, if they coidd find a vent for them amongst the natives ? — I have not a doubt that there are such persons, and that they would avail themselves of it. [The witness withdrew. DAVID HALIBURTON, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : D. Haliburton, Mr. Jackson.'] How long were you in the service of the East India Esq. Company ? — Five and twenty years. Upon which establishment ? — Madras. Did you become acquainted with the Persian language ? — Yes. Were you appointed to the office of Persian translator? — I was ap- pointed Persian translator in 1778. Were you also acquainted with the Hindostanee language ? — Yes. Were you in the revenue department ? — Yes, I was in the revenue de- partment from the year 1782 till J7Q5, when I returned home. Did EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 139 Did you arrive at the head of the revenue department i — Yes, I was so £>. Haliburtm, for the last four years of my residence in that country. Esq. Did that situation, and the other of Persian translator, give you ample opportunities of studying the character of the natives ? — I endeavoured to form an opinion of the character of the natives, as far as came within my means. Did you succeed in acquainting yourself with their habits, manners, and prejudices ? — I became, I believe, acquainted with the customs and man- ners of the people. Supposing British subjects to be allowed the right of going from every port in the United Kingdom to every port in India, and a material influx of Europeans to take place in consequence, what effect do you apprehend that might have upon the British interests in India ? — I think, it would b« injurious to the interests of the British government in India. Be so good as to state your reasons for that opinion ? — When Europeans arrive in that country first, I think I have observed that they have a great contempt for the natives, and suppose themselves a superior order of beings ; that they often maltreat them, and sometimes will hurt their feelings in many things, without supposing that they are doing so, in re- spect of their manners, and their religious customs, and other prejudices; that it has been found necessary on occasions when large bodies of Euro- peans have arrived at Madras, in the navy, for example, and have been obliged to land at the hospitals or other places, to put them under some restraint, for fear cf their giving offence to the natives ; and the same when any large bodies of troops, such as King's regiments, have arrived there in my time, and have been sent up into garrisons, it depended very much upon the commanding officers to keep them under proper restraint from committing violences and outrages in the neighbourhood of such forts. Have you observed that this disposition to contempt for the natives, and ill usage of them, has been less among those persons who have ac- quainted themselves with the native languages ? — Yes ; I think the longer stay Europeans make in that country, they form a better opinion of the natives than they had upon their arrival, especially if they have attained the languages of that country. T 2 Arc v_ 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE D. Ualiburlon, Are not the Company's servants, military as well as civil, enjoined to Esq. learn those languages immediately upon their arrival ? — 1 understand 1 y J very much of late, which was not the case formerly; there were very few encouragements forthe Company's servants to obtain aknowledge of the lan- guages when i arrived first at Madras, and for some years after it ; in fact, there was only one office, which was Persian translator to the government (the office to which I succeeded^ which held out any sort of encourage- ment for the gentleman to acquire the languages, for this reason, that the country annexed to Madras was in the possession and under the authority of the nabob of the Carnaric, and that the Company's servants at that pre- sidency were not employed in revenue matters ; except in the northern circars, which were in the possession of the Company, very few gentle- men even there acquired the language of the country, from the system that was at that time used in collecting the revenue ; but from alteration) of circumstances, many gentlemen became afterwards proficient in the languages of the country, and were employed in the revenue both in the Carnaticand Circars. Were the Company's servants very anxiously enjoined by the higher authorities to respect the prejudices, religious and civil, of the natives ?— Certainly, at all times they were strictly enjoined. Did they, generally speaking, succeed in mainta'ning that deference and feeling of respect towards the natives ? — I think they did. Do you apprehend that an influx of strangers, such as seamen, trader?, and artificers, ignorant of the language and ignorant of their customs, might not be the means, either wilfully or ignorantly, of giving very se- rious offence to the natives ? — Certainly it must have that effect. What consequences would you app-ehend from such offence being given in any material degree ? — It depends entirely upon the situation in. which those offences might be committed, for the Hindoos in general, in that part of the country near Madras, are a timid race of people; they perhaps might submit and suffer such violence ; in other situations, par- ticularly in hilly situations or woods, where they are of a more ferocious disposition, and apt to resent any injury, they might return violence. An intance I recollect of a gentleman, in the Kamnad, about three hundred miles south of Mulras, who was a paymaster ; he thought he could enter- tain some company that he had better by giving them vea 1 , for which he ordered a calf to be killed ; he was seized by the Hindoo inhabitants, and very EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1 + 1 very nearly put to death, if he had not been rescued by some military D. HaUhurlon, force: this happened in the year 1772. f^- Do you think that a series of aggressions from adventurers 'ignorant of their language and their manners, might provoke such a de?cription of people to insurrection ? — As I said before, very much depends upon the character of the people of the distiict where the injury is committed ; but, in general, the Hindoos I have met with have been of a very timid race. As to the Mahomedans, in case of their being affronted in the same way, what do you suppose ?— I think the Mahomedans are rather bolder; but there are very few of them in that part of India, except at the seat of the nabob's court ; the Mahomedans are but thinly scattered in the Carnatic. Looking to the length of the coast on either side of the peninsula, do you think that British subjects having a right to visit every port, as well as to coast from port to port at their discretion, many such persons would not have it in their power to get into the interior, if so disposed ? — Yes ; al- though on the coast of Coromandel there are not a great many ports, yet there are a number of landing places where Europeans certainly might land and proceed up into the interior of the country. Do you think that, in consequence of opening the trade, any material increase of demand is likely to take place for European articles, for the consumption of the natives ? — I think not. . State why you think not ? — From the habits and the few wants that the people of the country have ; even at Madras, which is the oldest English establishment in India, for it dates as far back as IfjiO, one would sup- pose that the people there would be more in the habit of using English- articles than at any other place, but the purchase of those articles there is confined to very few. Are their habits, according to your observation and understanding, of a fixed and unchangeable nature ? — Certainly, I think so; I have no doubt in my mind about it. Wfrt is the estimated native population of Madras, including the Black Town ? — It is eighteen years since I left it ; and, I think, but I may not be perfectly correct, I have heard it stated at three hundred thousand, but it was always a matter of difficulty to get an account; it is impossible to> ~v — 142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE D. Haliburton, to get a true account of the interior of a man's family, of which they Esq- are particularly delicate in giving an account. How long did you know Madras? — I arrived there in 1770, that is forty-three years ago. For how long a period did you stay there ? — I remained there the whole time I was in India, twenty-iive years. During the whole of that time, did you observe any increasing taste in the native population of which you have spoken, towards the Europeans, or to the consumption of European articles ? — None towards the habits of the Europeans ; but a few might have had a taste, such as the class of people called dubashes, who are native interpreters to the gentlemen there, or their commercial agents and money- brokers, to purchase Euro- pean articles of furniture in their houses, but to a very small extent. ^ The dubashes are the immediate agents of the English gentlemen ? — ^ es, their interpreters and immediate agents, and employed in various ways by those gentlemen, especially those who do not know the language of the country. Except a few of that order, did you observe any progressive increasing taste towards English articles among the natives ? — None ; the bulk of the people are as ignorant, I believe, as they were the first day we settled there. Did such of the natives as acquired property, direct their expenditure towards the purchase of English articles ? — -To a very small amount, perhaps watches, and a few toys, or glass ware, but to a very incon- siderable amount. During the whole of the time that you were there, was there an ample supply of European articles ?— Yes, certainly. If the mass of the natives had been disposed to such purchase, would they have had the means? — Certainly, many of them had the means; when I arrived in the country there were a set of men called the Com- pany's merchants, through whom the investment was provided ; those men were rich men; there were many other men of wealth, but very few of them purchased any European articles : I think there was only one .carriage kept by a native, except the nabob's family. Looking -v~ EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1*3 Looking to all the circumstances which your long experience has D. Halibut-ton, enabled you to judge of, can you contemplate any possible increased Esq. demand for European articles, which the present system is not more *— than equal fully to supply ? — I think not. [The Witness withdrew. The Chairman was directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. • # The Committee was again resumed. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. GRiEME MERCER, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Impey] How long have you been in the service of the East-India Grceme Mercer, Company ? — Nearly twenty-five years. Esq. v In what department ?— I was appointed to the medical department, but have been employed both in the revenue and political departments frequently. Under what presidency ? — Bengal. State in what political offices you have been employed ? — I was first employed under Sir John Kennaway, as secretary in the negociations for peace which took place at Seringapatam in 17Q2 with the British govern- ment, the Nizam, and the Mahrattas, on the one part, and Tippoo Sultaun on the other ; I was afterwards employed as secretary to the honourable Henry Wellesley, in his mission to Lucknow ; and after the conclusion of the treaty with the Nabob Vizier, I was appointed secretary to the lieutenant governor and board of commissioners for the settlement of the districts ceded by that treaty; on a conclusion of a treaty with the Nabob of Furruckabad, I was appointed agent to the governor general for the settlement of that district ; and on the dissolu- tion of the board of commissioners, I acted for some months as secretary to the government, in the department of the ceded provinces; on the breaking • 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON TOE GrxmcMcrccr, breaking out of the war with Scindiah, I was appointed political agent Esq. to the governor general with the commander in chief, Lara Lake, for I Y- ' the purpose of conducting the political negociations with the native powers bordering on our territory, under his superintendence ; on the final conclusion of peace with Scindiah, I was appointed to reside at his court, as the representative of the British government, in which situation I remained till 1811, when bad health obliged me to return to Europe. Are you acquainted with the Persian and Hindoostanee languages ? — I am acquainted with both of these languages. From your knowledge of the languages of the country, and from having had opportunities of residing in so many different parts of it, hove you been enabled to make accurate observations upon the characters, manners and observances of the natives ? — It is difficult to form a general character of the natives of an empire which extends from near the equinoctial line to 3 1 degrees of north latitude: if called upon for a general characteristic of the natives of that empire, I would say that they are mild in their dispositions, polished in their general manners, in their domestic relations kind and affectionate, submissive to authority, and peculiarly attached to their religious tenets and to the observance of the rites and ceremonies prescribed by those tenets: In referring to any distinction in this general characteristic, I should say that the inhabitants of the northern provinces of Hindostan were of a more bold and decided character, and less submissive to authority than those of the southern provinces, but equally attached to the observance of their religious rites and ceremonies. From your knowledge of the character of the natives, do you think that if a free trade were authorized by law between this kingdom and India, and free traders were permitted to go from hence, and to penetrate into the country, and to reside in it at pleasure, such permission would be attended with any mischief, and what, to the peace and happiness of the natives ? — I think it would be attended with great detriment to their happiness, from the violent character and disposition of the Euro- peans, who would be thus probably forced into an intercourse with them, and who are apt to indulge an habitual contempt for their manners, customs, and religious tenets ; this would consequently lead, and does actually lead, Europeans of this class, to treat the natives with contumely #nd insult. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 145 Are you of opinion that the prejudices of the natives are much more Gi\t.nc Mercer, likely to be violated by such persons, than by those who are in the service Escf. of the East India Company ? — I can have no hesitation in answering ^ v — >*— » that question in the affirmative; the Company's servants are regularly instructed to respect the customs and religious prejudices of the natives, and know that disgrace or punishment would follow any attempt on their part to insult those religious prejudices ; this could not be effected in an unrestrained intercourse of Europeans newly arrived in the country. Does not ignorance of the country languages in Europeans ofbn produce disputes with the natives ? — There can be no doubt it has frequently that effect, and that Europeans newly arrived in the country may often commit the greatest insults against' the religious prejudices of the natives, without any intention of doing so. Are not the quarrels likely to arise from intercourse with such newly arrived Europeans, likely to produce discontents, on the part of the native inhabitants, against the government of the country ? — There can be little doubt that such would be the result ; the natives at a distance from the seat of government are accustomed to consider their European governors as one great body, and do not always distinguish between the lower and higher ranks of them, or between those who form part of the government, and those who do not. If violences were offered to the natives at any great distance from the presidencies, by any newly arrived Europeans, would there be any adequate mode of bringing them to justice ? — -None, but conveying those Europeans back to the principal settlements, for the purpose of trial and punishment. If a free trade were opened with India, in your opinion would there be any increased demand among the natives of India for European articles or manufactures? — I am decidedly of opinion that if any increase of demand could exst, it would be very gradual, and very inconsiderable for a long period of time. In your opinion, have the mass of the population in India either the means or the desire of purchasing any European manufactures? — 1 am not of opinion that they have any desire, and I am certain that the great body of the people have not the means. U Among 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ^rccme Mercer, Among the higher ranks of the natives, is not the desire of purchasing Esq. European manufactures and commodities extremely limited ? — Very limited, and only amongst those who are particularly connected with thj European inhabitants. You having been at the Nizam's court, is not th-st considered as one of the richest of the native courts in India ? — It was considered, during the period I was there. as the court in India which reta ; ned most of the old customs, and the greatest degree of ceremony, agreeably to the forms of the Mogul government; the government was supposed also to be rich* If opulent persons there have a desire for purchasing European manufactures and articles, would they not have an opportunity, under the present system of trade, of gratifying that desire ? — They certainly would, from the abundance of such articles at all the principal settlements of the Company's government, from whence they could easily procure, them. Did you observe any European articles, and if any, what, in the pos- session of the Ni/.am, or any of the opulent inhabitants of Hydrabad ? — I do not recollect any, except a pair of lustres, which were sent by his present Majesty as a present to the Nizam. Has it fallen within your knowledge that the Bengal government used every effort in their power to introduce the use of European commodities into the ceded districts of Oude ? — It was the particular wish of the Governor General Lord Wellesley, to give every facility to the commu- nication in trade of the ceded provinces with the neighbouring countries, and to the vent of British commodities in those cour.m s ; for this purpose he instituted fairs upon the borders of the Rohikund country, for barter with the people «if ISapaul and Serimgur ;. for the fair of Hurdwar, where immense numbers of people from the northern countries of Cabul and Candahar and the Punjab meet those of the Company's provinces, for purposes of barter and for performing their religious ceremonies, he ordered the commercial resident at Bareily, the nearest station, to be provided with a large assortment of British woollens of every kind, which could be supposed likely to meet the taste of the inhabitants of those north' in countries, and ordered the resident to attend them h'mself to ;he fair at Hurdwar; this experiment was, I be- lieve, entirely unsuccessful, from the small quantity that could be sold > hardly sufficing to pay the expenses- of the conveyance. Cant EAST-1NDTA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. H7 Can you form any estimate how many persons attend the fair at Hurd- Grame Mercer, war ? — At the annual fairs it is supposed that from two to three hundred Esq. thousand arc collected ; once tn twelve years, when particular religious ceremonies are observed there, the number is generally computed to be almost a million of jjeople. Having stated that many persons from cold countries resort to the fair at Hurd war, what manufactures are made use of in those cold countries, which prevent the natives of them from purchasing British woollen ; when offered to them ? — The lower ranks or people wear coarse woollens of their own manufactu'e; and the higher ranks are cloathed in shawls, great numbers of which, of a coarse manufacture, are also brought to the fair at Hurdwar. Are not the natives of India generally a manufacturing people, skilful in manufacturing operations, and likely to provide for themselves what- ever manufactures they stand in need of? — They are very much so, and have hardly any, if any, wants from foreign countries. Have not many of the natives been lately taught European arts, to supply the wants of the Europeans at the presidencies of India ? — Many native artisans have been taught by Europeans, and are now settled in every principal town or station where Europeans reside, and furnish a great proportion of the articles required by Europeans. In the various parts of India in which you have been, has not the market for European commodities been fully equal to the demand? — I have never found a deficiency in any part of the country where I have been, except, perhaps, I may say in Scindiah'scamo, where the insecurity of property and the difficulty of conveyance must naturally deter any merchant from carrying such articles. In your opinion, is not the present system fully adequate to the supply of any increased demand that may probably arise among the natives of India for European commodities ? — In my opinion perfectly adequate. {Examined by the Committee.) You have stated, that you were at Hurdwar Ghaut fair; Hurdwar is in the northernmost part of the provinces ceded by the treaty of Oude ? — It is nearly so, in the latitude of thirty degrees. It is where the Ganges enters into Hindostan? — It is. U 2 Once 1 43 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Graeme Mercer, Once in twelve years there is a great concourse of people there ? —Yes. Esq. * y ' Do you know that in April 1809, when the great festival occurred there were assembled at Hurdwar, from every part of Hindostan, from the confines of China to the boundaries of Persia, Hindoos of all de- scriptions, amounting to two millions of persons ? I cannot of my own knowledge state the numbers that were assembled there, but I have no doubt that this statement may have been nearly correct. Have you any knowledge of the Company, in sending the goods up to the resident at Bareily, in order to be sold and disposed of at that fair, having given instructions that those goods should be sold considerably under prime cost, in order to give samples, to several districts with which we had been hitherto unacquainted, of British merchandize ? — I cannot positively state such to have been the instructions, but 1 believe that the general wish of the government was to encourage by every possible means the sale of those goods, and that the prices intended to be asked were fixed almost without profit. The experiment was not attended with success, it failed ? — It failed. [The Witness withdrew. DAVID VANDERHEYDEN, Esq. a Member of the House, was examined in his place, as follows : David Mr. Jackson.] Were you in the service of the East-India Company ? Vanderhejjden, — I was. Esq. For how long a period? — Five and twenty years. Upon which establishment ?— Upon the Bengal establishment. Be pleased to state the situations you filled, and the places where you resided ? — For the first ten or twelve years, according to the custom of the Company's service, I was employed in inferior situations, principally in the revenue department, in the province of Bahar; in the year 1790 I was appointed collector, judge, and magistrate of the twenty-four Per- gunnahs, a district in the vicinity of Calcutta ; in that situation I re- mained only a few months, when 1 was appointed by Lord Cornwalhs a member of the board of revenue, in which situation 1 remained nearly eight years ; upon the insurrection of Vizier Ali, in the province of Benares, — * EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 149 Benares, and the assassination of Mr. Cherry, I was appointed by my David Lord Wellesley chief judge of the court of circuit in that di strict, and Vandcrhcyden, agent to the governor general; I remained in that situation about two Esq. years, and then was compelled to come to Eng and from ill health. s— — y— How long have you been returned ? — About ten years. Did the situations which you have described yourself to have filled, enable you to form an accurate judgment of the character and manners and the general disposition of the natives? — Certainly I think they did. Are you acquainted with their general civil and religious prejudices, if such they may be called ? — Certainly I am. Supposing, in consequence of an open trade and free access to every port in India, there should be a considerably increased number of Euro- peans, indiscriminate as to their pursuits and characters, what effect do you suppose it would produce upon the general British interests in India? — I think it would have a most pernicious effect. Be pleased to state in what respect you think it would be so pernicious ? •—From the discordance of the European character from that of the na- tives, and the contempt and contumely with which the Europeans on their first arrival, and particularly the lower orders, treat the natives. Do you think that such intercourse would materially affect the happi- ness of the natives ? — I think essentially. What do you think might be the political consequence of such an in- tercourse ? —I think in that point of view it would, have a most pernicious effect, as tending to degrade the European character in their eyes. What consequence would you apprehend from such degradation of the European character ? — 1 think the consequence must be obvious, when we consider the great disparity of numbers between the Europeans who con- troul there, and the immense population of the country; it can be only by a high estimation of our character, by which our government there can be upheld in strength and pre eminence. Do you think that that estimation which you describe as essential to the upholding of the government, might be materially and seri- ously affected by such intercourse ? — I certainly think it would ; and I believe ISO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE David believe in that I concur with every man of any experience who has beea Vancterheyden, there. Esq. Do you think, that the sort of usage you apprehend from such an indis- criminate influx of people, might drive the natives to extremities ? — I should think it would : in some instances they are a very patient and for- bearing people, but I think they would probably have such provocations as would drive them to extremities. At present, are the British subjects amenable to an v but the principal court at the presidency ? — They are amenable only to the principal court at Calcutta ; the magistrate of the district has the power of apprehending any person, and of sending him to Calcutta, but there his duty ter- minates. The station where such offenders are apprehended is frequently, is it not, several hundred miles from the court in which he ought to be tried ? —Very frequently five or six hundred, or in some instances nearly a thousand miles. Supposing the earnings of these people to be, as has been stated, from three to five shillings a month, do you think it within a possibility that such injured natives should obtain legal redress? — Certainly not ; but it is not unusual, when accidents of this kind happen, foj the government to supply the native with the means of proceeding to Calcutta, or at least the magistrate on the spot. If, from indiscriminate intercourse, the number of offences should in- crease in proportion, do you think that that mode of redress could conti- nue to be pursued ? — Certainly not ; it would be attended with such enor- mous expence and inconvenience, that some other mode must be re- ported to. Be pleased to describe the general nature and constitution of the native courts, such as that over which you yourself presided, as to the laws by which they are governed ? — They are chiefly governed by regulations of our own government: if it is meant with respect to criminal cases, the Mahometan law principally obtains in the courts ; but that is modified by regulations of our own government, to render it, as we conceive, more consonant to natural justice. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 151 Are persons tried by the Hindoo laws, or the Mahomedan ?/ — In cri- David minal cases the chief rule of the court is the Mahomedan law. Vanderheyden, If Europeans were made amenable to these native or provincial courts, they must be *ried by those laws .'-—Undoubtedly, there are no other. Do the British laws obtain in any of those native courts ? — Certainly* not. Supposing this free trade from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, and looking to the line of cither coast of the peninsula, do you think, it would be possi- ble to prevent such persons as have been described, from gaining admis- sion into the interior? — I think it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible ; more especially as so large a portion of the coast of Malabar is not under our authority ; but, however, even in that portion winch is under our authority, I think it would be scarcely possible, in the case supposed, that of an unlimited trade, to keep Europeans from getting into the interior of the country.. Supposing new adventurers to succeed in getting into the interior of the country, do you apprehend that any political evil might arise therefrom? — 'Yes, I should think very great political evils.. Be pleased to state surh evils as you apprehend would arise ? — From their intrigues at native courts, if they made their way, and in fomenting: disturbances- Do you think that such persons, supposing their object to be that of military or political service, might not find secret or open encouragement at such native courts? — Yes, I should imagine they would; there have been various instances of Europeans in a low situation of life, getting into the interior of the country, and rising to situations of great import- ance. Do you suppose that this misconduct which you have apprehended to- wards the natives, would be in some degree dependent upon the station in, life of the person who should gain access to India? — Undoubtedly; a man of education and respectability who might find his way there, would be more likely to conduct himself well than a desperate adventurer. If* Esq. U2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE David If, for Instance, the supposed ingress should consist of seamen, trades- Vanderheijdcn, men, and artificers, do you apprehend that, from their ignorance of the Esq. language and manners of the natives, those dangers of insults and oppres- t y— — ' tions towards the natives would be in proportion ? — They would be likely to commit great disorders. Supposing such open trade to take place, do you apprehend it would lead to any materially increased demand for European articles, for the purposes of the consumption of the natives ? — I should apprehend not; their manners, customs, religion, the whole state of their society, pre- clude the probability of any increase of the consumption of European manufactures ; and above all, the slender circumstances of the mass of the people render it, I should almost say, impossible. Does this poverty of circumstances, to that degree which precludes the purchase of European articles, apply to much the greater proportion of the natives ? — By far the greater proportion ; almost entirely. During your residence in India, did you observe any progressive ad- vances in the natives towards assim lation to European habits or manners? — None whatever in the upper parts of the country ; in Calcutta, in some very slight degree, but to no extent. Do you mean exclusively among the higher orders ? — Exclusively, the others are precluded from their narrow circumstances, and indeed from their inclination. Among those who possessed wealth, in what way did they generally direct their expenditure ; was it towards the purchase of European arti- cles ? — Very little ; their taste does not lie that way at all ; in marriages, in religious ceremonies, in supporting religious establishments, in charities from the same motives ; those are among the principal modes in which the Hindoo natives of rank expend any considerable portions of their pro- perty. Hive any material proportion of the higher orders showed any dispo- sition towards the purchase or consumption of European articles ? — Very few. Were those few, generally speaking, such as resided at the different presidencies ? — At Calcutta, the Nabob of Oude also expended large sums jn the purchase of European articles. Were EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 153 Were such expenditures, in the Nabob and in the other persons that David you have referred to, regarded as complimentary to the European cha- Vanderheyden, racters among whom they resided? — In the case of the Nabob of Oude, Esq. I believe it was really his taste, and, being a man of immense wealth, it * v ' was one means that he had of gratifying himself. Do you know whether that taste in any degree communicated itself to his subjects ? — I believe not at all. Can you say whether, during the time that you were in India, there was always a full and ample supply of European articles ? — I imagine quite abundant ; I resided for many years at Calcutta, and I never heard the least complaint of a want of those articles, and I believe upon very reasonable terms. Do you mean to say there was an abundant supply ? — I believe a great abundance. Will vou name such of the European articles as the natives were in the habit of purchasing ? — There were instances of natives purchasing an European carriage, but those were amongst the highest orders ; oc- casionally some glasses, or a lustre ; I think those are nearly all the ar- ticles. Generally speaking, then, almost the whole of the import of Euro- pean articles into India, were for European purchase or consumption ? — It follows that they were almost exclusively fcr European consumption. Do you know whether there has been an increasing disposition in the Indian artificers to manufacture articles for European use ? — Yes, they are themselves very ingenious, and excellent imitators ; and they have been also taught by European artificers ; they manufacture various arti- cles, such as carriages, furniture, plate, and various other articles, very, nearly to approach those manufactured in Europe, in point of excel- lence. Supposing, in consequence of the increased facility of visiting India, that an increased number of artificers should go there, and looking to the immense disproportion of the price of labour between India and this country, do you apprehend that in time the necessity of import of Bri- X tish 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE David tish manufactures might not thereby be in a great degree superseded ? — I Vanderheyden, should think it would annually diminish from that cause. Esq. ^ y- j Looking to >any probable increase of European population or the In- dian want, do you believe that the present system, properly regulated, will afford as full and ample means for the supply of European manufac- tures as can be required for the market of India ? — I think the system as it exists at present, is fully ample for that purpose, I mean for the sup- ply of European commodities. Looking to so general and so indiscriminate an accession of Europeans as has been described, do you, according to your experience, believe that it would be consistent with the security of the British Empire in India, or with the happiness of the natives ? — I certainly think it would not. Do you apply that to both branches of the proposition ? — Undoubted- ly that was implied in the answer. (Examined by the Committee.) Would the evils that you have complained of as likely to result from an unrestricted trade to the East-Indies, be lessened by vessels returning to London instead of the outports ? — I do not think that would obviate it in any degree. [The Witness withdrew. GUY LENOX PRENDERGAST, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows ; Guy Lenox Mr. Grant.'] Are not you a civil servant of the East-India Company Prendcrgast, on the Bombay establishment? — I am. Esq. How long have you resided under the presidency of Bombay ? — Abou£ seventeen years. How long have you been returned to England ? — About two years, or two years and a half. In EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 155 In what parts of the territory under the Bombay presidency have you Guy Lenox resided ?— Principally in Guzerat. Prendergast, Esq. Did you reside there in any official situation ? — I first went to Guze- > v ' rat as resident at Baroach, a city belonging to Scindiah, and remained in that capacity for seven years, until the commencement of the warfare in Guzerat in' 1802, when I accompanied the army to the field as pay- master ; and in 1805 1 was appointed judge and magistrate, and revenue commissioner for settling the revenue affairs of Baroach and its depen- dencies, then newly conquered, in which situations I remained until about three years ago, when 1 returned to England. Has it fallen within your opportunities to make yourself fully acquaint- ed with the characters, habits, institutions, and prejudices of the na- tive population of that part of British India ? — During the time I resided at Baroach as resident, I had no other society whatever but the natives, and had an opportunity of intercouse with almost all ranks of them ; I think I had a full opportunity of becoming acquainted with their habits, characters, and language. State whether the manners, habits, and institutions of the natives, are not such as seem strange to Europeans ? — Very dissimilar and strange. Are you able to say whether, in point of mental or bodily vigour, the great majority of native population be equal to Europeans in general ? In bodily vigour certainly very much inferior ; in mental capacity, in general, I do not think that they are inferior. Have you observed in Europeans unacquainted with the national pe- culiarities of the natives, a tendency to insult their prejudices or make light of their peculiarities ? — I think it is remarkable that on Europeans first arriving in India, they are disposed to treat the natives, their reli- gious ceremonies, and their prejudices, with a considerable degree of contempt and derision, probably arising in a great measure from the de- scription of persons who get about Europeans on their first arrival, being generally those out of employ, and not of the best character. Are Europeans ever apt to domineer over the natives, from the mere consciousness of their personal superiority or their national and political ascendency ? — I think they are on their first arrival in India, and before they become acquainted with them. X 2 Supposing V J 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Gui) Lenox Supposing a free ingress of Europeans to be permitted into those ports Prcndergast, of British India with which you are conversant, and a free intercourse to Esq. take place between the Europeans so introduced and the natives, what — v- ' effects would you apprehend to the welfare of the natives, and the sta- bility of the British government ? — I think such unrestrained admission of Europeans into the Guzerat country would be productive of the greatest possible disorder; the local authorities, as at present constituted, would be totally unable to controul or regulate them ; they would be complained of in a variety of instances for offences, the magnitude of which, as affecting the native prejudices, it would be very difficult to explain to such Europeans, who would thence be led to believe that the lo- cal authorities encouraged frivolous and vexatious complaints against them; this would lead them in return to treat the local authorities with every mark of personal disrespect they could with impunity, and they would thereby be lowered in the eyes of the natives, who, on the other hand, would feel the incapacity of the local authorities to afford them that pro- tection they had a right to from the government ; general disaffection would prevail, and a continuance of those causes increase that disaffection probably into insurrection. From the observations which you have made upon the character of •he British residents, can you say whether there prevails among them a considerable degree of that mutual and national fellow feeling which is known so generally to characterize British subjects residing in a foreign country, and among a population of singular habits ? — I think that na- tional feeling does exist. Are you aware that by law, British subjects, for offences committed against the rights or security of the natives, are triable only before the supreme court of judicature in Bombay, and by a jury of British sub- jects ? — I am aware that that is now the regulation. Do you conceive that it would be possible to render British subjects amenable to the district or provincial courts, without offending the na- tional feelings and prejudices of Englishmen ? — I think there would be a considerable degree of inconvenience in making them in every respect amenable to the provincial courts. In your opinion, would a frequent exercise of coercive power on the part of the government, or its provincial representatives, over British subjects, be invidious in the eyes of the British residents ? — I think it would. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 157 Can you state whether there is any part of the Malabar coast not Guy Lenox Subject to British jurisdiction ? — From Goa up to the mouths of the Piendergast, Indus is upwards of 800 miles, the whole of which, excepting within Esq. about 200 miles, belongs entirely to the native powers ; and within those * y" ' 200 miles, excepting Bombay, there is only Surat and Baroach belonging to the English, and those parts belonging to the English are divided in many places from each other by the native territory. Supposing frequent resort of the vessels of private British adventurers to the Malabar coast, would it not be practicable for the crews of those vessels to effect a landing on some part of that coast, and to penetrate into the interior of the country ? — 'No doubt; in the fine season, almost all along that coast crews might land, and proceed almost in any direction they pleased. Are you not of opinion that very great abuses might result from the occurrence of such an event ? — The greatest possible abuses and dis« order. What are the species of abuses which you would apprehend from tha"t event ? — The contempt which such description of Europeans are gene* rally disposed to hold the natives in, might naturally be expected to lead them into considerable excesses, where they were under no description of control ; insults to the native women, intrusion upon the houses and pa*- godas of the natives ; all of which would be resented by the natives, and where they would have no authority to apply to they would have recourse to force. Do you conceive that the abuses which you have described, migh'f issue in consequences dangerous to the stability of the British government in India ? — All the circumstances I have described, are of a description productive of consequences, no doubt, most dangerous to the British go- vernment in India. Hare you Tiad an opportunity of observing how fai there prevails among the natives of that quarter of India with which you arc: acquainted, a taste for the use of European commodities ? — I have not observed any disposition or taste among the natives of Guzerat for European articles. Is not property very unequally distributed in that country ? — Property is very unequally distributed. Have 158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Guy Lenox Have you found a taste for European commodities among the higher Prcndergast, orders of the Indian society? — I have not observed any such disposition Esq. amongst the highest order in society in Guzerat. y-- Do you mean that remark to include persons who have had both the means and option of using European commodities ? — I do ; for both exist in Surat and in Baroach. Can you state, whether, within the period of your Indian experience, there has been a growing taste for European commodities among the higher orders of the native population? — In that respect I think they have been perfectly stationary ever since I have had any intercourse with them. Are not the domestics employed in the households of Europeans in that country generally natives ? — They are, almost without exception. Are persons in menial situations found to imbibe European tastes, or affect European fashions ? — I do not think they are. Are you acquainted with the population of the island of Bombay itself? — I resided very little at Bombay ; I have of course been there, but for very short times, excepting on my first arrival in India, when I remained there nearly two years. Have the native inhabitants of Bombay itself copied in any degree Eu- ropean manners and fashions ? — The Hindoo and Mahomedan inhabitants of Bombay I do not think have; the Parsees of Bombay have a good deal copied the European manners, such as riding in carriages, sitting on chairs, and dining on tables, furnishing their houses ; but this is but a small number, and principally those connected with the European housea of agency, and the very opulent. Are not the Parsees, of whom you speak, a small and a distinct tribe ?-.- The Parsees are perfectly distinct from the Hindoos and Mahomedans, and they are comparatively but a very small tribe. Would an increased consumption of European commodities by the in- dividuals of that tribe promote an increased consumption of such com- modities among the other native inhabitants of that country ? — I do not think it would have any such tendency. Supposing EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 159 Supposing that in some very limited degree the Hindoo and Maho- Guy Lenox medan population of Bombay have adopted the use of European commo- Prcndergast, dities, would not you ascribe this circumstance wholly to the very inti- Esq. mate intercourse which has subsisted between those people and the Eu- *— — -v '■ ropean inhabitants ? — 1 think entirely. Supposing then, for the sake of argument, that it be possible to pro- mote an extensive consumption of European commodities in the interior of the country, must it not be supposed as a condition to that event, that a very extensive intercourse shall have taken place between the inhabitants of the interior and British subjects ? — It does not appear to me that any intercourse between the Europeans and natives of the interior, that is at all within the bounds of probability, could in a century induce them to use European articles or to adopt European manners. With respect to the great mass of the Indian population, state whether they have the means of purchasing European commodities ? — The great mass of Indian population have not. Is not the price of labour in that country, both for agricultural and ma- nufacturing purposes, incomparably lower than in the countries of Eu- rope ? — It is incomparably lower. Is it at all within your recollection what is the average price either of agricultural or manufacturing labour on the Malabar coast ? — It may vary from about five shillings to about fifteen shillings a month. Do you conceive that this extreme cheapness of labour results from casual and transitory causes, or partly from fixed peculiarities in the soil, produce, and climate of the country, and partly from peculiarities, scarcely less fixed, in the characters, modes, and institutions of the native popu- lation ? — It proceeds, I think, from the extreme fertility of the soil, the • cheapness of all articles of food and raiment ; and the monthly wages of labour that I have described, are quite proportioned to the wants of the common native. Labour then being from fixed causes so much cheaper in the countries of India than in the countries of Europe, do you conceive that under any circumstances the countries of Europe are likely to be on a great scale manufactuiing countries for the countries of India ? — I do not think they are ; the general wants of the natives are supplied in their own country. "Whatever „ ) 160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Guy Lenox Whatever improvement therefore may hereafter take place in the corf- Prendergast, dition of the Indian people, is there any rational prospect of such an ad- Esq. vancement in their means of purchase, as shall place European commo- dities generally within their reach ? — I do not think there is ; and if they were within their reach, I do not think they shew any disposition to pos- sess them. Do not you ascribe the advantage with which Indian commodities enter the markets of Europe, principally to the unexampled cheapness of Indian labour ? — I should think so. Supposing, therefore, such an ultimate increase in the wages of the la- bouring population of India, as should place European commodities within their reach, would not the same circumstance proportionably en- hance the price of Indian commodities in the English market ? — No doubt it would. Has the Bombay government, within your knowledge, shewn an anx- iety to promote the consumption of European commodities among the natives under its supervision ? — It has long been an anxious object with the Bombay government to obtain a vent for European articles in the interior of the territory under Bombay, and through them up into the Scind country : I was particularly myself spoken to on that subject, when I had charge of the factory at Baroach, and made every inquiry of those natives 1 conceived best qualified to give information on that subject, and the result of those inquiries left no reason to believe that the thing was prac- ticable. Do you conceive that the present system of trade is sufficient to meet any increase which may take place in the demand for European commo- dities among the natives of India ?— e character of the natives, and from their want of capital to purchase ? — From both. Had you, during your forty years residence in India, any opportunity of seeing whether the natives made any progress towards an alteration of manners or customs. — Very little alteration^ Have you any reason to believe from your experience, that such altera- tion in manners is likely to take place, as to produce a general demand on the part of the natives for European commodities? — I am alraid not - y 1 have seen no alteration during the time I have been in that country, or very little. Had you, from your practice in agriculture, and from your dealings with the natives, an opportunity of becoming accurately acquainted with the price of labour in Bengal? — I had. Can you state the ordinary amount of a labourer's wages per day cr per week ? — One anna a day was the usual wages, the sixteenth part of ha!f a crown. Do those wages afford the means of purchasing any thing beyonH their daily food and their necessary raiment ? — I believe not, nothing more- than that. In what manner do the ordinary agriculturalists in India clothe them- selves and their families ? — A piece of linen cloth is generally the most of their apparel, one piece for their head and one piece for their body. Was EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 163 Was that the invariable dress of those people during the whole of your William Bruce residence there ? — Of the lower class it was. Smith, Esq. Have they ever, in any respect, altered ? — I never saw the smallest alteration. Is there any difference between the wages of the cultivator of the land and the manufacturer, in point of amount? — The manufacturer generally has double the wages of the labourer. Is his dress and his food, and that of his family, equally simple with that of the labourer ? — Exactly, just the same. Is there any disposition on the part of the labouring manufacturer to become the purchaser of European commodities or of British goods ?-— I think not, they could be of no use to him. Have you reason to believe that an unrestrained influx of British or European subjects would be likely to disturb the harmony of the natives, and the government in India ? — I think it might. In what respect do you think so ; how do you conceive it would operate to their inconvenience ? — From their being unrestrained in their proceedings. Would they be likely to violate those customs and usages which would give offence to the native inhabitants? — Most likely, from not knowing the consequences. How far was your general place of residence from Calcutta ? — About four hundred miles. Had you with you any Europeans, or English, in your service ? — Gene- rally natives were employed ; sometimes an European assistant. If any offence had been committed by that European, or any European in your service, against any of the natives, in what court must the native have proceeded in order to punish the European for his offence ? — He could have applied to the provincial court, and the European would be lemov^d -, but Calcutta was the proper place for trial and punishment. Y2 The 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE William Bruce The removal of the European would have been in consequence of In- Smith, Esq. qurry, and an order by the government of the province? — It would ; the l v j magistrate of the province would, on inquiry, have sent him to Calcutta. The magistrate of the province, of course, is the Company's servant ?— Me is. "Would the magistrate of the province, the Company's servant, have directed the offending European to be sent to the presidency r — I under- stood that was the regulation. Do vou conceive that the enforcement of such a regulation, in case of an influx and settlement of Europeans in tha interior of the country, would tend greatly to the inconvenience of Europeans carrying on business, trades, or commerce there ? — No further than their interference with each other in point of trade. Have you had any experience of any number of licen.ccd Europeans, not in the Company's service, being settled in any one place in the in- terior, for the purpose of carrying on business or trade r — A great num- ber, in various parts of the country, licensed. Have those persons been under the strict regulation enforced by the go- vernment ? — I understand so, that in the event of their misconduct their license would be withdrawn. Can you state any particular instances, within your own knowledge, of misconduct, such as \o be followed by the withdrawing of licences ? — I have heard of some instances where the persons have been ordered down to the presidency. Do you know for what cause they were ordered down to the presidency ? —I cannot point out particular cases, I have heard ot several instances, they will appear upon the Company's records. Have you ever attended at any of the fairs in India ? —I have. Have you ever seen European commod : ties or British commodities of- fered tor sale there ? — 1 have seen broad cloth and some few articles of cutlery there. Do you consider that the present mode of supplying the Indian market with EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1(35 with British or European commodities, is adequate to the demand ? — IVilliam Bruce Fully adequate, I thiuk. Smith, Esq. Had you, in the culture of the land, or bringing in the wrste lands that you cultivated, any occasion to use any implements of British con- struction ? — None at all. Was all that work carried on by the natives, and with the implements of the country ? — Entirely. Have you ha 1 any opportunity of knowing whether the wealthy Indians apply any part of their sc'Derrluous wealth in the purchase ol European or British commodities r — With very lew exceptions, I believe they pur- chase none at all. In what manner do they apply or use their superfluous wealth ? — In their own mode of state ; a great number of servants, entertainments, marriages and deaths, those are the principal. (Examined by the Committee.) Have you ever heard, or do you know of any violence having occurred, between the servants of the Company employed at the aurung in providing the investments, and the natives ? — I never heard of any ; but I was a long distance from any aurung of the Company, and therefore I am not competent to give an answer. Have you ever heard of any violence having occurred between those employed by the free merchants acting under licence, in collecting the manufactures, whether of indigo or otherwise, and the natives r — Some disputes have undoubtedly occurred, but those when complained of were always inquired into and checked by the magistrate. Have you ever heard of any lives being lost in such disputes ? — I cannot bring to my recollection any thing of the kind, but hearing that an indigo manufacturer was murdered by the people. AVhat do you imagine will practically be the consequence of the agents of the British merchants going into the interior ot India, under a legisla- tive enactment, to push the enterprise and capital of the British mer- chants, as far as he may conceive it may be pushed, in regard to the natives ? — 1 think it might be attended with yery serious consequences. ' * As ">r- -J 1— ■ — v ' Is it not usual for the Company's commercial servants to place peons over the weavers, to quicken their deliveries of piece-goods ? — 1 have understood so, that those peons are servants, and sent ior that purpose. Are not those peons usually armed with a switch or rattan ? — Generally a stick, of office. Is not that stick of office an instrument of punishment as well as an emblem of office, an instrument of summary punishment ? — Not at all, I never understood it so. Have you never heard of those instruments being used in flogging ? — No, never. Would a private merchant be allowed to place peons over the weavers ? — It had formerly been the case I believe, not at present ; for some years it has been discontinued. How came it to be discontinued ? — Really I cannot inform the Com- mittee. Would the weavers submit to have peons so placed over them by a private merchant ? — I believe they would. Do you know any instance of it lately ? — I cannot point out any particular instance, but I believe they would. [The Witness withdrew. The Honourable HUGH LINDSAY was called in, and examined as follows: Honourable Mr. Adam.'] — Are you not a captain or commander of a ship in the Hugh Lindsay. Company's service ?— I am. v , 1 How long have you commanded a ship in the Company's service? — I have been seven voyages as a commander in the Company's service, six to India, and one to China. How EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 171 How many years may those voyages have occupied, from the first to Honourable the last voyage ? — Since the year 1793, twenty years. Hu^h Lindsay. C % 1 Have you in that character carried out various investments of English or European articles for sale in India ? — I have. Have you carried them out as part of your privilege, or as belonging to your privilege as captain ? — In my privilege as a captain. I> the privilege of a captain free from all freight and other expenses?— It is. Under those circumstances, state what market you have found in India for your articles r — J,i two different voyages I had tolerably good markets, the others very indifferent indeeJ. To what port or what presidency did you sail with those articles in which the markets were indifferent ? — To Madras and Bengal. Can you state whether the wan f of a market, or the defect of market, was owing to the defect of purchasers, or to the market being overstocked ; or to both ? — I think from the market being overstocked. State to the Committee whether the purchasers of British or European articles at the presidencies of Madras and Bengal, are the European and English settlers there, or the natives ? — Both. Who are the consumers of those articles, in general ? — With a very small exception, the Europeans. Can you state in what rank in society, or of what description, the na- tive customers for those articles are ?— I cannot say. Have you ever made any endeavours to obtain commissions from the natives to curry out European goods to India ? — Frequently. How have you succeeded in such application ? — I haye on two or three occasions had commissions from the native merchants. Is that all you have ever had in the seven voyages you have made to India? It is; and i have frequently requested the native merchants to consider whether there might not be some new article that I might bring Z 2 from \Vt MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Honourable iVom Europe lor them ; their reply \va?, that there was nothing they could Hugh Lindsay, think of as a new article that they could desire me to bring, and that their *— v . . — / retail was almost entirely for Europeans. Do you, from your experience in the India trade, consider that the pre- sent mode of supplying European and British articles to the settlements in India is sufficient to answer the demand? — I consider it more than suffi- cient, to afford a profit to the people who carry the investments to India. Have you had occasion to consider whether the effect of opening the trade and exportation to India would be such as to tend to the improve- ment of the market for British and European goods in that country ? — I should consider it would tend to a great loss in the markets in India, and that no persons would benefit by it but the auctioneers. What are the articles of importation from the presidencies of Madras and Bengal, in which you have particularly dealt i — Piece-goods, raw- Silk, silk piece-goods, indigo, and a tew drugs. Have you had any opportunity of ascertaining how far the amount of tonnage employed by the East-India Company is sufficient to bring home the articles which the country supplies for the European market? — I do not feel competent to answer that question, I have never had it in my power to take in into consideration, my thoughts being entirely occupied by the tonnage of my own ship. Have you during your residencies in India, when you have been there in the course of your voyages, had any opportunity of being acquainted with the character of the native Indians, and how far their habits are likely to create a consumption of European articles ? — I do not consider that their habits are likely to create any consumption of European articles beyond what they have been in the habit of using for the time past. Can you assign any other causes for the dulness of the sale of the articles which you carried out, except those you have already assigned ? — I cannot. Have you ever had occa ion to have any intercourse with any of the Eastern islands ? — I have. Have you had occasion to have that intercourse in the way of trade ? — I cannot say in the way of trade, for I never found they would buy any- thing. Did EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 173 Did you go there with a view to propose any object of trade, or had you Honourable . any opportunity ot discovering how far it was possible to promote trade in lhi«h Lhui.sji/. that quarter ? — In the year I80J I was senior captain of a fleet of eight sail * v ' of ships, and in our voyage to Bengal I went in with the fleet to Acheen Head, in the island of Sumatra, for refreshments ; and although we had, I believe, on board that fleet, every article that is exported from this country to the East, yet we could not find among the whole ships any article in which we could pay for the cattle we received from the Acheenese by the way of barter, and we were obliged to open our stock, dollars to pay for the refreshments we obtained there. Had you any occasion to sail to any other ports upon the peninsula or in the British possessions in India, other than Madras and Bengal ? — I have been at Bombay. Have you had any opportunity of judging of the market for European goods at Bombay ? — The last time I was at Bombay (for I was at Bombay twice, once as an officer) the markets were tolerably good. Had you any opportunity of becoming acquainted with the habits or manners of the natives of the island of Bombay, and in the adjacent country ? — Not much. Can you say whether their habits tend more to the use of European articles, than those in the other parts of India with which you are acquainted ? — I cannot state fully; I have hardly sufficient knowledge of them to state fully. Are you acquainted with any of the ports along the coast, either the Malabar or the Coromandel coast, not in the possession of the Company immediately ? — I have been at several of the ports on both of the coasts, but all those ports that I was at belonged to the Company. State the names of those ports, on either of the coasts ? — I have been at Goa, on the Malabar coast, and Tellicherry and Anjengo ; but a great many years ago. Can you speak particularly with regard to the situation of the trade in those ports at that time ? — I was an officer at that time. Do they afford the means of easy importation and exportation, by ship- ping, of British articles ?— Certainly. From 1*74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Honourable From their situation, is it easy for the persons who go out in the way Hugh Lindsay, of trade, to find their way from thence to the interior of the country? — 1 * v ' should suppose so ; and I have been at Vizagapatam, on the other coast. Do you consider that those ports that you have enumerated would form a ready and easy means of trade, if the trade were free, and not confined to the presidencies? — At certain seasons of the year, I conceive almost every part of the coast very easy to be approached. (Examined by the Committee.) You said you have been seven voyages, and that two of them were tolerably profitable and five were otherwise ? — I have. Were those voyages that were profitable recently, or in the beginning of your ^oing to India ? — The most profitable outward voyage I made was in the year 1804, I think, to Bengal. You have been there since ? — I have. More than once ? — Yes. Does it come within your knowledge, whether there are, or not, British artisans and manufactures now settled at the presidencies, who work and produce many of those articles that were forme r iy brought from Great Britain? — There are, particularly coach makers, carriage-builders; in Calcutta they build carriages as well as they do in London, I think, nearly. How do they work in shoes and in leather? — They make exceedingly good boots and shoes, and a variety of articles, and there are a great many other artisans, who work exceedingly well, in Calcutta. Are those articles equally fitted for sale in the country, as the same arucles brought from Great Biitain ? — They are not quite so good, but they are very much cheaper, except in the glut of a market, when European goods are sold at 50 per cent, less than they cost in London. Would not the consequence of those articles being afforded at a cheaper rate be to diminish the import of the same articles from Great Britain r— I conceive, on many occasions, it has diminished the import to India. Have EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 175 Have you ever found that they stood in your way of sales, which formerly Honourable you would have had, if those had not existed ? — I think they have, in Hugh Lindsay. several articles, stood in the way. v — ■ ■>/- ' Is it not then probable, in your opinion, that in the course of no very long time the increase of those artisans and manufacturers may prevent the importation altogether of British articles, except some very choice one*, that may be made use of by those Europeans who can afford them ? — I think it very probable indeed. Are you yourself acquainted with the qualities and the value of the articles which you purchase for an investment to India? — Most in- timately. Do you yourself select the various articles of the manufactures of this country which you employ as investments to India ? — Invariably. In estimating the loss which has arisen in the cargoes which you have mentioned in a former part of your evidence, do you mean that it is a loss arising between the difference of price at which the goods were purchased in this country and sold in India, or does it arise from any circumstance of being obliged to abandon or leave behind any part of those cargoes ? — I never left any part of my investment behind ; I always preferred sending it to the hammer to leaving it behind. The cargoes were always sold ? — Yes, they were always sold ; some- times at a very considerable loss ; and I have no hesitation in saying, that if I had never traded in articles tor export from this country, I should have been richer than I am at this moment ; upon the whole, I think I have lost by my outward-bound investment. Then the Committee is to understand that that loss would have been di- minished, either by a lower purchase of goods in this country, or a more advantageous sale in India ? — Certainly. Is not the principal object of investments in this country, for India, to effect a remittance for the purpose of a return cargo ? — It is, in the first instance, in the hope of meeting a good market in India ; no doubt a part of the money is employed in a remittance back to this country. If you could obtain bills on favourable terms on India, would you not prefer 17o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Honourable prefer them to goods ? — It would depend very much upon the exchange Jiu^h Lindsay, that the bills could be got at. "V" Has it not been the practice of late years, in Calcutta, for the com- manders of Indiamen to discos? of their investments by public auction, in preference to private sale, as the most advantageous mode of the two ?— Not as the most advantageous mode ; but 0:1 some occasions, when the market was extremely bad, some of the commanders have sold their in- vestments by auction themselves, and by that means saved a very large commission which the auctioneers draw from them. Is it not usual for the commanders of Indiamen to advertise in the public paper of Calcutta, the sale of their entire investments by public auction, pledging themselves not to dispose of any part thereof by private sale, so as to assure the public of their investments not being picked ? — I never knew it to be done when they could sell their investments at any tolerable advance. In what manner did you procure your cotton cargo, the last voyage to Bombay ; were you allowed to go into the market and purchase it yourself, or was it supplied to you by the Company ? — Yv'ith the exception of a hundred baies, which was supplied me by the Company, I vent into the market. Is it not within your knowledge that the Company compel their com- manders to take their cotton of them, when they have it to spare ? — We are obliged, by the Company's regulations, to take our cotton from the Company, if they have the cotton for us ; but on the occasion alluded to, the cotton that I got from the Company, I think, was exactly of the same price as that which I purchased from the private merchants. Have you not heard of the Company exacting a higher price, from their commanders, for the cotton, than they paid for it themselves ?— I have been only one voyage to Bombay as a commander, and I can only speak to that particular instance. lou have not heard of the Company charging their commanders a higher price than the market price for such cotton ? — The Company's re- gulations state, that ten per-Ctnt. is to be charged upon the price of the cotton purchased in the country; I do not consider it the Bombay price, but I may not be perfectly correot as to that. You — v— EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 177 You understand it to be usual for the Company to purchase more cotton Honourable than they require for themselves? — It has been of late years the determi- Hugh Lindsay. nation or the Company, I know, to provide the investments for their * commanders. Has that been with a view of accommodating the commanders, or to promote their own interests? — Upon my word, I consider it to be to pro- mote the views of their commanders. Have not you heard of frequent disputes between the commanders and the government of Bombay, as to the price of cotton so supplied to them ? — I have heard of disputes on that score, previous to the regulations made by the Company for furnishing it to their commanders at a regulated price. Have you not heard of their being threatened with being deprived of their tonnage, provided they did not take the Company's cotton upon their own terms? — It is one of the conditions on which they have their ton- nage, that they do take the cotton from the Company, that is, by the late regulations. What sum do you imagine that you generally pay to the Company, upon your return from a China voyage, on account of your own and your officers privilege, on the score of duties ? — I think there is a duty charged to the Company of eight and a half per cent, but I am not perfectly certain, for warehouse room, and landing our goods, and other charges. What does it amount to generally each voyage, for yourself and your officers ? — It depends upon the quantum of the goods that we have, and the sale value at the India House. The tonnage is usually fixed from China, is it not ; how many thousand pounds do you reckon are usually paid ? — The King's duties and the Company's are so blended together, that I cannot distinctly say ; I know that the Company levy a duty upon our teas, of 33 per cent, I think it is, and the King of 96. Is there not a further sum paid for each voyage to the Company, of «£500? — Yes, there is; a sum of ,£500 has been paid since the year 1796, I think. On what account is that ^£500 . paid ? — I understand that that was laid 2 A on 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Honourable on as a tax upon the commanders, for the purposes of repaying to the Hugh Lindsay. Company a sum of money for an allowance made when the perpetuity of bottoms was done away ; it having been the practice for commanders to buy their commands, this was to enable the Company to repay themselves ior JCspQO which they paid to each commander upon that occasion, and: it lias continued ever since. Is it not usual for the commanders of the Indiamen to employ native brokers, in preference to Europeans, in the sale and purchase of invest- ments ? — Sometimes the one and sometimes the other : I have frequently- purchased my own homeward investments myself, up the country, in Bengal. Is it not more usual to employ natives ? — I believe it is more usual ; I seldom did it myself. In the event of a free trade from this country to India, would it notba more for the convenience and the advantage of the merchants to employ natives than Europeans, in transacting their concerns in India ? — I should rather prefer, myself, employing Europeans. Have you ever been in the habit of employing Europeans ? — When I did not provide my investment myself, I generally bought it from the Eu- ropean merchants in the different ports, invariably. You have said, that you have known investments of ships, that did nofc find a market, sold by auction ; have you known it to happen that those articles of British produce have been sold at those auctions at a cheaper- rate than they could be imported immediately from England ? — Frequently at fifty per cent, discount. Are there not many native merchants and British merchants residing at those places, who, if they could find a vent for those articles amongst the natives, or in any other way, would have been glad to have seized that opportunity of purchasing them so much cheaper than they could them- selves have imported them ? — I have been informed by the native merchants, that they would give no more commissions, because they found- that they could purchase the goods infinitely cheaper than any of us could; afford to bring them. la consequence of those auctions? — Yes, in consequence of those auctions $ EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. l~$ tactions • and I may say, every season I was there, there was a glut at the Honourable Taner 'part of the season, and a great many more goods than there was a Hugh Lmdsay. demand for in the market. — V" [The Witness withdrew. LESTOCK WILSON, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Adam.]— Were you in the East-India Company's shipping service? Lestock Wilson, *— I was. How Ion"- were you in that service, and what number of voyages did you make ?— I was four and thirty years, and made eleven or twelve voyages ; five as a commander. How long have you been retired from that service ?— Ever since the year 1799. Have you since that time been engaged in a house of trade to the East- Indies ? — I have. During the time that you were in the service of the East- India Com- pany, had you an opportunity of judging of the market, at the different presidencies, for European and English commodities ? — I never was at Bengal but once in my life, that was in the year 1767 ; I have been twice at Madras, and three times at Bombay, and the rest at China. With regard to Madras and Bombay, state what opportunities there were of disposing of British commodities in those presidencies? — The commanders and officers of Indiamen, it is well known, always were paid by their being allowed to carry out a certain privilege, which they always availed themselves of j sometimes they sold it tolerably well, and some- times very ill. Could you judge whether the market was overstocked with British and JEuropean commodities at those presidencies ? — I certainly have seen it overstocked, when the goods would not fetch prime cost, and I have seen it otherwise. Can you judge, from your intercourse in India, of the probable demand by native Indians for European commodities ? — I cannot say I have had 2 A 2 much 180 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lestock Wilson, much opportunity of judging of it, further than the success or failure of Esq. the investment at the time. i Is the Committee to understand that your knowledge upon that subject is confined to the success or failure of the particular investment ? — Exactly yr-- so. How lono- have you been engaged in a house of trade in this town, trading to the East Indies ? — Since the year 1802, not trading much to the East Indies, but rather as an India agent, receiving consignments from thence, and sending out, when ordered to do so, goods from this country. Can you state the nature of the goods, or principally what the nature of the goods has been, that you have been ordered to send out to India ? — I cannot be particular in my recollection, but very lew articles indeed, and to an inconsiderable amount. Can you specify any of them ?— I really cannot particularize any ; iron and lead, foreign wines, and other articles. Do you consider those articles as having been meant for European or Indian consumption ? — The iron for Indian consumption, I should sup- pose ; wine certainly for European consumption. The other articles for general consumption ? — Yes, but mostly by Eu- ropeans. Do you consider that up to this time, and during all the time you have been employed as an agent for Indian importation and exportation, the means afforded by the Company for exportation of articles to India were sufficient ? — I should think they were. Can you state any particular instances in which you have found it difficult to obtain the means of completing a shipment of goods to India ? — I am under the greatest difficulty at this moment, having a ship which is to return to India, and finding it extremely difficult indeed to find com- modities to put into her that are likely to produce their prime cost ; and if the Company had not relaxed a little, and given us leave to carry out goods, which it was in their option to door not, we could not have sent back the ship at all, except in ballast : the fact is, that there are but four articles in her cargo within my recollection, which are the produce of this country or its dependencies, namely, empty glass bottles, and I believe there EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 181 there may be twenty or thirty tons of English iron, there may be as much Leslock Wilson, Swedish, there are about twenty or thirty casks of porter or ale, not Esq. chusing to ri^k more, and some chalk ; those are the only articles of the V v — _a produce of this country that we chose to risk cur money in. You consider those the only articles that are likely to bring a profit in an Indian market ? — At present, certainly. In your dealings with the Company for the purpose of obtaining the facilities of exportation, have you found them to be such as to answer every purpose of the trade ? — We have certainly suffered some incon- veniences, but very trifling. \ Do you then consider that the difficulty in finding articles for exporta- tion, arises from the want of a market, or from any other cause ? — From the want of a market ; from the circumstance of its being glutted, owing to too many of those things being sent out. Had you any opportunity of observing, when you were at Madras or Bombav, whether articles of European consumption were manufactured at those presidencies ? — "Certainly not ; I never saw any manufactures of those articles, of any sort, either at one settlement or the other. Did you ever see. any manufacture of boots or shoes r — They certainly make shoes at Bombay, and very good shoes, and they make them all over India ; I believe the Bombay shoes are the best they do make in India. Are there any. other articles for British wear or consumption, made at that presidency ? — I am not certain whether they make carriages at Bom- bay or not, they certainly do in Bengal, and many other articles. Watches ? — I believe not watches any where. Guns ? — I do not know that they do. Plate of different sorts, or plated work ? — Not that I know of; they work up silver, I understand, at Madras and Bombay, but make no plated work. Leathern accoutrements ? — I do not know that they make them to any extent, it never came within my knowledge. Do 182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lcsteck Wilson, Do you consider that there are any circumstances in the present state of Esq. the Indian market likely to encourage a more enlarged trade than that 4 — — -y. ' which now exists ? — I should suppose the number of ships employed from this country to that, convey an ample quantity of those commodities to supply all the demand which can be made. (Examined by the Committee.) Do you know whether there were in your time auctions frequently, at the different presidencies, of European commodities ? — Certainly it is a very common way of disposing of them, and captains and officers have frequently had recourse to that mode. Were those commodities sold cheaper or dearer than they could be im- ported from Europe ? — Sometimes they sold very badly indeed. Are there not native merchants and British merchants there, that would purchase those commodities whenever they could be bought at that cheap rate, if they imagined they could find a vent for them among the natives or the Europeans? — I apprehend there are, certainly at Bombay there are, and at Madras there are too, I apprehend, native purchasers of every commodity that is brought there. Is it within your knowledge that there are English artisans and manu- facturers settled at the different presidencies, who now work up many articles which used to be brought from England ? — Certainly they make up furniture there; at all the settlements, I believe they make carriages. And other articles that used to be imported from England ? — Yes. Do not you conceive that in as far as those articles are furnished there, they diminish so much the importation from England ? — I should suppose they would; if a gentleman could procure a carriage, for instance, at Bombay, made there for half the price he could procure it from England, he would be satisfied with using the Indian-made carriage in preference to the London-made carriage. "a>^ Do you not conceive it probable that as those artisans and manufacturers in those settlements increase, they may go nearly to supersede the impor- tation of almost all the articles now brought from Europe? — Certainly they will diminish it very much ; as, for instance, a common article of export EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. J S3 export to all the settlements, I believe, in India, all the necessaries for Lestock Wils$n, coach-building, the springs and the various other parts, and the leather. Esq. springs You are not much acquainted with the interior of the country ? — Not at all ; I never was out ot the seaport. You have said, that vessels going out to India have very great difficulty in rinding a freight to that country ; are you aware that to the West Indies, to the Baltic, and to all the other countries with which this country has a trade, a great many vessels do proceed in ballast ? — I have no knowledge whatever of the Baltic trade, nor none of the West Indies, I never was there in my life. Have you been engaged considerably in the importation of the pro- ductions of India, such as cotton and indigo? — We have had several consignments of that kind ; we have a consignment of cotton remaining on hand at this moment, which has been in this country these three years. Does that arise from the quality of that cotton being particularly inferior to Indian cotton in genera', or from the price not yet having reached that to which you were limited by your correspondent, or which it ought ulti- mately to obtain ? — The fact is, the proprietor of it is in this kingdom at this moment; I do not apprehend it is inferior in point of quality to the generality of Indian cotton, but it arises from the depreciated value of the article in the market at this time and at the time it came; certainly there has been no opportunity of selling it at any thing like the cost of it. Are you acquainted with the culture of cotton in India, and any pos- sibility of improving the culture of it ? — Not at all ; I never was in the cotton country, though I have carried three or four cargoes of cotton to China on my own account. If it were desirable to make large investments in India of cotton, indigo, and other raw materials, manufactured in this country, and to a considerable amount, are you aware of the most advantageous manner of finding the funds in that country necessary for the payment for those com- modities ? — I should apprehend that the funds would be found from this country to any amount that was wished for or desired. Are you of opinion that partly by our manufactures, ot by dollars en- tirely from this country, the funds would be found ?— While the price of silver "V 18i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON TFIE Leslock Wilson silver was moderate, any surplus that there was of the consignments was fr s q_ sent out in dollars; since the price of silver has been so high, people have i , i been set to their wits, and have taken the manufactures of this country, though perhaps they may have lost by them; but generally speaking, the returns were in silver, at least as tar as my experience went : when I went to Bombay and China myself, as a commander, my great expor- tation was not in commodities, but in silver. Then with a view to the purchase of raw materials in India, the loss upon sending manufactures from Europe, to be calculated justly and cor- rectly, ought to be with reference to the price of silver, and the state of exchange with India? — Cer f ainly; if I wanted to realize funds in India for my occasions for going to China, or any i'ther purpose, I should make a comparison between the price of silver at that moment, and the proba- ble sum which carrying out porter, or any of those various articles, might produce, according to the advices that we had from thence; and which- ever promised the greatest advantage, that I should invest in certainly. To estimate the loss or gain of a voyage to and from India, is it neces- sary, in your opinion, to look t — I do not think that they could be forced into it, or that any large importation could be disposed of, but to a loss ; but certainly the consumption of some articles might be increased, there might be in time a gradual inciease of them. Do any particular articles seem to you as likely to increase? — There are few or any articles, that I really know of, that the common people would want ; a few cloths might perhaps be increased in time, and some few European articles for erecting their houses, window glass, or hinges, but in a very small degree. You were of the house that Mr. Scott belonged to, and corresponded with that house here ? — Yes. Were their efforts made by the house'at home to encourage the export- ation of articles from Great Britain to your house at Calcutta ? — There have been very large quantities of goods shipped by them at different times to the house at Calcutta, many years ago. Were those shipments repeated for any length of time ? — They were repeated frequently ; when the India ships came to this country with car- goes, there was a return cargo provided for them all, of some extent, and of considerable amount. Did you find that that was sufficient to answer the purposes of the de- mand in India, or more than sufficient ? — They were but a small pro- portion, the goods we had, to the general importation of goods into Calcutta, but almost universally a loss was left upon the goods which we imported. How long has the house ceased to continue those exportations ? — I cannot exactly speak to the acts of the house here in London, but in Calcutta we have discontinued them for five or six years. Was EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 189 Was the cause of your discontinuing them, that they were disadvan- Wm. F i lie, tageous speculations, or have you any other cause to assign ? — It was on Esq. that account, that they were generally attended with loss, perhaps five v__ <*——* times out of six. Have you had an opportunity, since your return to England, to consider the subject ot exportation from hence to India, with a view to your busin 'ss or to the carrying on trade with that country ? — I have not thought 01 making any attempts to export goods to India, on account of the expectation of loss that would arise trom it; some tew articles, perhaps-, beer, empty bottles, and a tewof those articles, might leave a profit, but in general all dry goods there has been a loss upon* Dees your experience in India enable you to judge perfectly what will suit the Calcutta market ? — I should think no articles that would leave a loss would suit the market : Some few articles have for years past been imported there to a profit, which are eatables, drinkables, and what I have mentioned just now ; but in general I have understood that the captains and officers of Indiamen have never realized the costs of their investments upon their outward cargoes, for some years past ; they carry out assorted cargoes* Can you give any information respecting the articles that are manufac- tured at Calcutta for the consumption of the European population there, such as shoes, boots, and sadlery r" — There are a great many articles now manufactured in Calcutta, that supply the place of those formerly import- ed from this country ; all kinds of leather, carpenter's work of every description, furniture, plate, and a variety of articles in copper and brass ; carriages are- made there, many of them made entirely there, others from materials imported from this country ; few carriages that are imported from this country are completely finished here. Did those articles used to be sent from this country ? — Yes, those have been chiefly since my residence in Calcutta. The rise of those manufactures union the spot has been since your re- sidence at Calcutta ? — Yes, the greatest part of them. Are those manufactures in sufficient perfection to induce the British population there, of the higher order and ranks, to wear them and use them ?- — They have their plate there, their mahogany furniture, and other articles made there, and by far the greatest part of them use the leather manufactured. •190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wm Faiiik, manufactured there for shoes and boots and harness; buff leather for belts Esq. is made there. < v Are those got so much cheaper there, as to induce a preference over those sent from this country ? — They are greatly cheaper. Have you had occasion to observe whether the natives, who have been taught to manufacture and fabric^ those articles, have been adroit and expert in the performance of them if — They are almost wholly manufac- tured by the natives; one European carpenter may perhaps employ fifty or a hundred natives, with not an European among them ; the same with the shoemakers, and also with plate ; in fact there are not many European tradesmen who work themselves ; tailors there are a few, but in compari- son not one in fihy, the persons that are employed are natives. Are you acquainted with the price of labour, or the wages paid to those artisans? — They receive, no doubt, according t> their abilities, from per- haps seven shillings and six pence, to twenty shillings or twenty-five shillings, according to their expertness, a month ; I cannot particularly speak to that point, but I do not think that the wages exceed that. Do you consider that, during the period of your thirty years residence iu Calcutta, this introduction of manufacturing British articles there for British consumption, has tended to diminish the exportation of those ar- ticles from this country considerably ?— I think a very considerable reduc- tion has been made, that it has tended considerably to reduce them ; it is in proportion to the quantity now wanted in that country ; there are perhaps forty or fifty Europeans now in the country, for one, at the time when 1 first arrived there : the general consumption is great, but it is re- duced in proportion by those country manufactures. Have you had any opportunity of observing whether the native Indians have come into the habit ot using such articles as have been lately spe- cified ? — I know of few or none; the richer part of them, some few of them, have carriages for show, to please the Europeans chiefly, I believe; and they have tor their houses, some of their principal halls, some glass ware, and chairs and tables. Do you consider, from your knowledge of the characters and wants of the native population of India, that they are likely to become customers for British or European manufactures ? — It must be very gradual, I think, A EAST INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. li'l 5f they use any European articles; they make every thing within them- Win Fat; -, selves almost that they require. k .' T .• Do tlie lower classes in Calcutta and its vicinity follow the fashions of their own country, or adopt the fashions of Europe ?— I do not remember any of them that followed the fashions of Europe, they seem invariably to abide by their own customs. Had they not an opportunity of seeing in Calcutta, from the great European population there, the fashions of Europe exactly as they would see them in London, or in any town or city in this country ? — The same 1 should think, in every respect. Have you seen any tendency whatever, notwithstanding their oppor- tunity of seeing the fashions of Europe, to their following those fashions ? — None, except that of using some carriages, and having some of their houses furnished partly with that furniture, but more for shew, as I have already said, than for their own convenience. Have you any expectation of the native Indians becoming customers for Biitish commodities, except by their becoming imitators of British fashions ? — I do not know of any articles they would want for their use. (Examined by the Committee.) It being understood the population of Calcutta may be about from four to six hundred thousand souls • of that population, how many do you suppose to be British ?— In Calcutta, itself, I really cannot say, perhaps a thousand. One thousand of from four to six hundred thousand ? — Yes. Of the remaining population of natives, can you form any opinion what proportion of that population may be in circumstances to purchase British commodities ? — I really cannot say. Would you say one in a hundred or one in five hundred, according to your knowledge of them, or in what proportion ? — A great number of them are certainly enabled to purchase some of those articles if they wanted them, they are very wealthy. Is it your opinion that perhaps, of that four or five hundred thousand or ]:>-' MIN'UTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE V.'m.Fairl.e, of that population of natives, tlicri wou'd not be above two or three Esq. thousand or four or live thousand in a situation to purchase British com- *- -y-s J modifies ? — There are fully that number, four or five thousand, I should think, enabled to purchase European articles to a certain extent, if they wanted them. Do they purchase them? — I do not know that they do, they may pur- chase a little cloth, or some of those articles I have mentioned for their houses ; a person of considerable wealth prefers his own manufactures, of cloth and of shoes, which is almost all his dress ; he has nothing Eu- ropean about him. Except that three or four thousand of the upper classes, the remaining population do not consume European manufactures ? — Very few of those five or six thousand use them, but they are enabled to purchase them if they wanted them ; none of them are disabled from purchasing some European manufactures, a penknife, or a pair of scissars, or something of that kind, but they do not use them ; I have never seen them use them in any degree, except what I have stated, and that within these fifteen or twenty years that the richer natives have purchased those showy things. Dees it come within your knowledge that there are frequent auctions of British articles of all descriptions at the different presidencies ? — The auc- tions in Calcutta are daily almost, except it be on a Sunday. In general, are the articles so sold at those auctions, sold with a profit or a loss ? — Generally at a very considerable loss, even under the English cost, frequently under the prime cost of the article ; that I can speak to from my own knowledge. Are there not many native as well as British merchants who would pur- chase them, if they could find a vent for them, either among the British or the Europeans ? — Both Europeans and natives : the natives trade very largely ; they purchase them, and carry them up to the military and civil stations as far as Delhi, and some of the natives to Hurdvvar a few of those articles; some of the natives buy cloths, and a few other articles; but the military and civil stations are supplied by those traders who pur- chase chiefly at auctions the goods of the Company's officers ; I have known them sold at prime cost, and under it, even by the invoice. Do you suppose, this being the case, that it is likely any orders would be sent to England for those articles of which they might expect auction there ? EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 193 there ? — There are orders sent for assorted cargoes sometimes by the natives, Wm. Faiiiie, for those articles they retail in their shops ; there are very large and exten- Esq. sive shops kept by the natives, and they do send orders for some of those v v ' goods; it is not all the goods which sell at a loss, but those articles that are sold at a loss may be kept and sold afterwards at a profit ; those auctions are made by persons about leaving the country, and who wished to turn their goods into money ; they may yield a profit by their keeping them in their shops. You have stated, that very considerable loss has arisen from investments sent to the East-Indies within the last five or six years ? — I have understood that there has. Can you form any opinion with respect to the inducement that has led persons to continue this unprofitable commerce for five or six years ? — Many of them get returns ; the officers of Indiamen and captains of Indiamen pay no freight, and they have those advantages that others have not ; they will carry out goods, though they generally have lost ; they carry them out to make a remittance ; they sometimes make a saving remittance, and at other times a loss by it; the great inducement is to carry them out, to purchase their homeward investments'. When those investments are made as a remittance, ought not the loss which arises upon the sale of them in India, rather to be added to the cost of the investment home, and the sale of that investment show the result of the whole adventure ? — No doubt the adventure becomes one from the be. ginning to the end ; whether they have gained or lost upon it, I really cannot say ; I have not myself been trading in that way ; it depends chiefly upon the sale here, whether it is a gaining adventure or not : I have un- derstood from my friends and the captains, that instead of filling up their privilege with their own investments, they have let it out, where they could, for wine, and some bulky articles. You have stated, that you have not been yourself concerned in the ex- port trade to India for the last five or six years ; you are not perhaps acquainted with the general amount of loss sustained ? — Sometimes perhaps it may have been small, sometimes there may have been a gain ; but I have had complaints; from hence they have complained of a loss in general. Are you acquainted with the fact, that in some of the articles that have been sent to India, a very considerable reduction in the price in this 2 C country v*_ I9-1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE . Wm> Fairlie, country has taken place within the last two years? — It will depend upon Esq. the price of the rest of the articles, whether upon the whole they yield a y — '■ ' profit or not ; if there has been a great reduction of price, there may not. be a loss ; I cannot speak from my own knowledge on that point. Have you been engaged in the trade of bringing home cotton and indigo, and other articles of Indian production, for sale in this country ? — I have very generally, all those articles, indigo, cotton, piece goods, silk, and other articles. Have you found that a very general complaint existed in this country, that the quality of cotton brought from India was not suitable for the use of this country? — We have found a complaint against the Indian cotton, for the shortness of its staple, and that it was not so suitable to the ma- chinery of the country as the West Indian and American cotton, from that circumstance alone; the quality of it, I have understood, is better than the bow'd Georgia, that it makes a more substantial cloth, but that jt does not suit the machinery, that the spindles do not take it in, on account of the shortness of the staple. Have you had complaints with respect to the cleanness of that descrip- tion of cotton, that it has been dirty ? — Yes, that it has been dirty ; I have seen some very clean, cleaner than the American cotton, at the Company's sales, but in small quantities ; but there have been general complaints of toulness, that can be remedied. H?ve you the means of judging whether cotton, more suitable to the consumption of this country, such as is grown in America, might be cul- tivated in India with proper management ? — I do not know that it could be to any great extent ; the cotton from Bengal comes principally from the Mahratta countries, where there might be difficulty in picking out a better sort ot it, or separating it ; in some of the provinces under the Madras government, the Tinnevelly country particularly, there is a very fine cotton grows from the Bourbon seed ; and the native cotton is very superior to our Bengal cotton, and sells ten or fifteen per cent, higher than the cotton from Bengal, in the China market ; there is also some very good cotton from the Guzerat district. Then the Committee is to understand, that by the culture of these des- criptions of cotton, particularly the Bourbon seed, which you state is already cultivated in India, and by the disuse in cultivating the cotton of interior and short staple, a great improvement might be made ? — I think the EAST INDi*A COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 195 the quantity of (hat fine cotton might be increased considerably with proper IVm. Tafrlie encouragement, at least I have understood it might, for I was never in the ksq. Madras district myself. ' v During your residence in India, have you known any acts of oppression exercised by the commercial residents of the Company, towards the native weavers? — I cannot speak from my own knowledge to that at all, I never was forty miles from Calcutta ; a great many years ago there were com- plaints about it, but I believe it has been entirely removed ; I have heard no complaints for many years past, and have had large concerns, in the provision of piece-goods, in differents parts of the country. Have the goodness to state the nature of those complaints to which you allude ? — I am not really fully acquainted with them ; it was about con- fining the weavers attached to the Company's factories, preventing their working for individuals ; but they have been entirely removed for many years past, or at least I have not heard of it for many years past, therefore it may be considered as not existing ; I do not think it now exists; I be- lieve they are allowed to work for any person, when they are not at work for the Company. Have you known any instance where the native weavers have been in- timidated or compelled into engagements with the Company, to deliver goods at certain prices ? — I really cannot speak positively to that; that I should suppose was part of the complaint; but I cannot speak to it with any satisfaction to myself. Are you aware of any instance where the weavers of India under en gagements to the Company at what they considered low prices, have made inferior qualities of cloth in the hope of its being rejected by the Company, in order that they might afterwards dispose of it to greater advantage to the private traders? — I really cannot say ; there is a great deal of cloth rejected from all the Company's factories, which is returned to the weavers, and they dispose of it to private merchants or elsewhere. You have said, that you have heard of obstacles being thrown in the way of persons wishing to send goods, to this country by the Company's extra ships, but that you could not speak to that from your own knowledge; have you not been advised of those obstacles by your correspondents in this country, during your stay fn India ? — We have been informed, both while in India and here, that freight could not be obtained at times when it was wanted, and that sometimes articles were not allowed to be shipped. 2 C 2 What 196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wm. Fairlie, What were those articles to which you allude ? — I do not know that I Esq. can particularly state them ; I believe copper has sometimes been objected 1 ir ' to, and I am not certain whether woollen cloth has been objected to or not ; but there were very few, and only at particular times. Have you experienced similar obstacles in obtaining tonnage at Calcutta, for goods you wished to send to this country? — We have frequently ex- perienced obstacles and impediments there. Have not the merchants at Calcutta had occasion to make many com- plaints upon that subject? — I have understood frequent memorials have been presented to the government of Bengal upon the subject. Have you met with any obstacles in procuring your investments of piece- goods in Bengal ? — I do not at present remember an instance of having been prevented procuring any piece-goods that we wanted. Are not the services of the weavers so monopolized by the Company's agents, that the private merchants have great difficulty in getting goods manufactured by them ? — By no means ; I did not find it the case at alL there were plenty of weavers. The Committee is to understand that your agents have never complained to you of experiencing such difficulties ? — Not latterly, not for many years past ; I do not remember that for many years past ; formerly there was, but not latterly. As your agents did formerly make such complaints to you, state the nature of those complaints ? — It is a very long time ago, and I cannot speak very particularly to it, but it was generally from that cause, that at that period the weavers were prevented from working for individuals, those weavers attached to the Company's factories. Is it not usual for the Company to make advances to the weavers ?—- Certainly it is, and also for individuals, they generally make advances in the same manner. How long before the delivery of the goods are such advances made ? — It depends upon circumstances, some cloths are provided sooner than others, and I cannot state precisely the time that is required for certain goods. Can EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 197 Can you state within a few months ? — It is sometimes from three to six Win. Fairhe, months before an order can be returned from the aurungs, some are re- Esq. turned in a month, those that are near Calcutta ; others may he four or six > v zr months, as the cloths are finer, or the aurungs more distant. Is it not usual, in making up an invoice upon mercantile principles, to add the interest upon those advances to the cost of the goods ? — The in- terest is no doubt charged in the account which is kept for those goods, it sometimes may be upon the invoice with the charge of interest, and sometimes not ; it should be, to be correct ; the accounts for certain goods or for a certain aurung, may often be formed into five or six invoices. Do you understand it to be usual for the Company to add the interest to the cost of the article ? — I cannot speak to the customs of the Company which way they make up their accounts. Is it not sometimes usual for private merchants to apply to the Com- pany's commercial servants to assist in procuring piece-goods? — They frequently procure them, and they are allowed to do so when they are not employed for the Company. Do not the private merchants prefer employing the Company's servants, when they can do so ? — They do. Upon what grounds is that preference given ? — The cloths made up by the Company's servants, are made up at the Company's aurungs, and by the Company's weavers ; I should suppose they are generally of better quality, not always, but they are in some cases ; the quality can be better depended upon from them than by native agents, or even Europeans out of the service. Have you not understood that the investments carried out by captains and officers of Indiamen, are often laid in upon long credits, and conse- quently at a very considerably increased price ? — I cannot particularly speak to that; I have understood that many of them are laid in upon long credits, and the discounts that will be obtained for ready money not taken from it ; others are purchased perhaps for ready money ; whether the discount is taken from the price of the goods, I cannot say, but still the goods bought by the captains and officers, being substantial persons, are bought upon as good terms as any others could purchase. Would 198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE H'm. Fairlic, Would not a well-assorted cargo of staple articles, laid in here at Esq. ready-money prices, generally yield a saving remittance, reckoning a rupee • v- ' at 2s, 6d. ? — I should think they are the safest articles to trust in, but it depends much upon the rate of freight the owner of the ship would expect ; such as iron, lead and copper, I have imported large quantities, and never obtained any gain upon them, sometimes not even a remittance at 2s. 6(1. In the event of a ship going from this country to India for a return cargo, you would reckon nothing for freight outwards, would you ? — There must be a certain freight upon the general voyage, how you calculate it is immaterial ; I conceive there must be a certain freight to defray the expences there and back ; the merchant may divide it as he likes, whether so much out and so much home, or upon the whole, is immaterial ; a certain freight is necessary to pay the expences. Have not vour speculations in goods from England to India been regu- lated by the course of exchange between the two countries ? — We did not particularly consider that ; when our ships came to this country we got a certain quantity of staple articles for ballast, or perhaps other goods, without considering the rate of exchange. Had not the exchange been favourable for drawing funds from England to India, for some time before you left India ? — For a very short time before I left India, the exchange was very high upon England till within a very few years that I left it ; it has been since that time very favourable ; but only a tew years before I left India did it become so. What is the present exchange for bills upon Calcutta ? — To draw bills it may be about 2s. 3c/. I should think ; and to purchase bills, about Is. Id. Are not the Bengal duties very heav\ ? — Very heavy ; they have increased very much within these tew years. Be so good as to state the duties upon imports and exports generally? — The duties upon imports, I understand, are from ten to twelve per cent. with a very unfavourable rate of exchange, that may add perhaps one or two per cent, more, that is ten sicca rupees for a pound sterling. Is there not a town duty besides ? — There is no town duty, that I understand is abolished ; it includes the town duty. What EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 100 What is the duty upon export? ?— I am not quite certain, but I fancy Win. Fair-lie, about two and a half per cent, generally, I cannot speak certainly to that. Es Mr. Adam (by permission of the Committee ) — Have there not been regulations in existence tor some time past, that enable the private employers as well as the Company's servants, to have the services of the weavers ; and is not the weaver bound to work for the person who first comes to employ him ? — I have stated, I believe, that when the Company's weavers are not employed for the Company, they are allowed to work for individuals, and they are bound by the laws of the country and by the courts, to do that work first for their first employer. (By the Committee.) — Have you at any time seen any considerable quantity of Tinnevelly cotton ? — I have not seen any large quantity, and do not believe there is any large quantity at present grown, but 1 under- stand it may be increased very much in quantity. [The Witness withdrew. The Chairman was directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. a, > Lunce, 12° die Aprilis 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. Colonel THOMAS MUNRO was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Impey.]- — Are you now in the military service of the East India Colonel Company ? — 1 am now in the military service of the East India Company. Thomas Munro. At which of the presidencies ?— At Madras. How long h*ve you been in the military service of the East India Com- pany ?—l have been in the military service of the East I.iJia Company above two and thirty years. During 200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel During that service have you resided in many parts of the peninsula ?— Thomas Munro. I have resided in different parts of the peninsula, on the coast of Coro- *■ — -v ' mandel and Malabar, and in Mysore in the interior. Were not you employed by the government of Madras in settling the districts ceded by the Nizam to the Company ? — I was employed in settling the districts ceded by the Nizam to the Company. By having resided in so many parts of India, and particularly by that mission into the Nizam's country, had you great opportunity of observing the character and habits of the natives of Hindostan ? — I had full oppor- tunity of understanding both the character and habits of the natives. Were there many Europeans in that part of the country, meaning the districts ceded by the Nizam ? — There were no Europeans in that part of the country, except such as belonged to the Company's or King's civil or military service, and a few suttlers belonging to the army. Are you not of opinion, from your observation of the Hindoo nation, that they are much attached to their own modes of living and thinking ? — From my observation, they are very much attached to their own modes of living. In your opinion, are they not as unchangeable upon those points as any thing human can possibly be ? — I do not think that they are positively un- changeable, but they are as unchangeable as any thing can possibly be. Do you mean without exception, or with any exceptions, among those who have intercourse with Europeans ? — I make no exception ; I think there is very little or no change in those settled at the principal European settlements. When you went into the ceded districts, were they not in a state of great anarchy and disorder ? — They were in a state of complete anarchy when I entered them. How long did you reside there ? — Seven years. During the course of that time, were not those districts reduced to a comparative state of order and good government r — They were reduced into very good order. Are EA.ST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. . 201 Are you of opinion that it is not now necessary for the Company to use Colonel great caution in selecting those persons who should be sent into those dis- Jaomns Munr a, tricts, for fear of the natives recurring to their former state of disorder r — * Y I think it is necessary to use great caution in the selection of persons to manage, not only those districts but all districts under the Company's government. Do not you think that more particular caution is necessary for districts that have just been reclaimed in the. manner you have stated ? — For dis- tricts such as are newly reclaimed, greater caution certainly is necessary. What, in your opinion, would be the consequence of permitting Eng- lish traders of all descriptions, to range and to reside in those districts ? — I think such a permission would be attended with very dangerous conse- quences, and great inconveniencies to the peace of the country. Are you of opinion that persons just arrived from Europe, and ignorant of the customs of the natives, would produce more mischief than persons who had resided some time in the country, and were acquainted with their manners and habits? — Persons newly arrived from Europe would produce greater mischief in the country than those who had been some time there, and had become acquainted with the habits of the natives ; this is so much the case, that it is always usual when European troops, newly arrived from Europe, are sent up the country, to send a detachment of native troops along with them, to prevent their getting into disputes with the inhabit- ants ; those disputes happen, not only with newly arrived European troops and the natives, but among all newly arrived Europeans, whether King's or Company's officers, or civil servants ; a single ensign, newly arrived from Europe, going up the country to join his regiment, produces more alarm than would be occasioned by a whole regiment of veterans. In your opinion, if newly arrived Europeans were permitted to enter the interior of the country, would they be likely to exercise acts of vio- lence against the natives, and to outrage their religious and civil prejudices and feelings ? — They would be likely to commit such acts of violence against the religious and civil prejudices of the natives, often from igno- rance, and sometimes from a contempt of such prejudices. In your opinion, would not such conduct on the part of the newly ar- rived Europeans be likely to excite disturbance among the natives, that might eventually be dangerous to the government of the country ? — I think it might occasion disturbances that would eventually be dangerous to 2 D the 202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel the governmentof thecountry ; but although they might at the time occasion - Thomas Munro. some partial riots, I have no idea that they would occasion insurrection;-. *—. v ' they would produce that sort of discontent which might remain at rest till an enemy entered the country, when the minds of the inhabitants by such conduct would be prepared to favour the view of any invader. In your opinion, would such conduct of the newly arrived Europeans, if it took place, degrade the British character from the high respect which the natives at present bear towards it ? — It would certainly have the effect of lessening the high character which Europeans now have in India. Is it not your opinion that the high respect entertained for the English character in India, is one of the main supports of our government there ?'—- I think it is the principal pillar of our government there, that when the respectfor the European character is gone, our government cannot exist. In case of oppression of the natives by Europeans at so great a distance as those ceded districts, would it be possible for them to obtain any justice, considering that Madras is the only seat of a court that has criminal juris- diction over Englishmen ? — I think that very few of them ever would ob- tain redress, because not one in twenty would, ever take the trouble of going so far, or could bear the expence. Are there not ports upon the Malabar coast which are still subject to- the Marattas? — There is a tract of country on the Malabar coast, from' Goa northward to Bombay, which is still subject to the Marattas. Might not Europeans, entertaining hostile designs to the East India Company's government in India, penetrate by the ports upon that coast to the courts of the native princes ? — They might certainly ; there could be no obstruction given to them there by the Company's officers. If the native princes were hostilely inclined to the Company, and inclined to violate the treaties with them, might they not receive Euro- peans into their dominions without detection from the Company's resident ? — I do not exactly understand that question ; is it meant through that part of the Maratta country which is to the north of Goa, or through the Company's own territories ? Through that part which is to the northward of Goa, between Goa and Bombay ?— They might certainly receive Europeans through that part of the country, la EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 203 In the event of a free trade, are you of opinion that there would be any Colonel considerably increased demand for British commodities or manufactures, Thomas Munro. among the natives of Hindostan ? — I do not think that there would be any considerable increase of the demand for European commodities among the natives of India; I do not think that this want of demand depends exactly upon the high price. The high price in India ought to have the same effect as it has in Europe ; it does not in Europe prevent the general consumption of Indian commodities, it only makes people take less of them, but every person, I believe, purchases in some degree according to his circumstances; this is not the case in India, there are very few people there that purchase any European commodities; it does not depend upon a man's wealth or poverty, the wealthy man purchases no more than his poor neighbour ; there is no gradation in the consumption of European commodities, depending upon the wealth of the individuals; at our prin- cipal settlements, where wc have been longest established, the natives have adopted none of our habits, and scarcely use any of our commodities ; the very domestics of Europeans use none of them ; there are a few natives at Madras and some other places, who sometimes purchase European com- modities, and fit up apartments in an European style, to receive their guests, but it is done merely, I believe, in compliment to their European friends, and what is purchased in this way by the father, is very otten thrown away by the son ; the consumption does not extend, but seems to remain stationary : I think there are other causes of a more permanent nature than the high price, which preclude the extension of the con- sumption of European articles in India; among those causes I reckon the influence of the climate, the religious and civil habits of the natives, and more than any thing else I am afraid, the excellence of their own manu- factures. In this country, people who know little of India, will naturally suppose, that as the furniture of the house and the table require so much expence, a great demand will likewise be made among the natives of In- dia for the same purposes; but a Hindoo has no table, he eats alone upon the bare ground ; the whole of what may be called his table service, con- sists of a brass basin and an earthen plate ; his house has no furniture ; it is generally a low building, quadrangular, rather a shed than a house, open to the centre, with mud walls and mud floor, which is generally kept bare, and sprinkled every day with water, for coolness ; his whole furniture usu- ally consists of a mat or a small carpet, to rest upon ; if he had furniture, he has no place to keep it in, it would be necessary to build a house to hold his furniture ; he likes this kind of house, he finds it accommodated to the climate, it is dark and cool," and he prefers it to our large buildings : again, the food of the Indian is simple, and is entirely found in his own country; his clothing is all the manufacture of his own country, we cannot supply 2 D 2 him, 204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE -V ' Colonel him, because while he can get it not only better but cheaper at home, it is Thomas Munro. impossible that we can enter into competition in the market. In your opinion, does the demand of the natives for European commo- dities increase at all, as thev are near the source of supply ? — I think the nearness or distance from the source of suopiy has no perceptible influence upon the demand ; it this were the case, I should expect to see the demand gradually increase. Have you means of stating with accuracy the price of labour in the ceded districts of which you were superintendent ? — I had the means, but I can only now speak from memory ; during my residence there, a great number ot statistical tables were drawn up by many or the most intelligent natives, containing the price of labour and subsistence ; but those tables, not having brought with me to Europe, I can only recollect the general result; I think that the average price of labour, in agriculture, is about 5s. a month ; 5s. I think is a high average ; some of the calculations made it as low as 4s., none above 6s. Is the price of labour you have stated, more than adequate to the sub- sistence of the labourers, and of their families ? — Not more than adequate to the subsistence of a labourer and his family : Tables were also drawn up at the same time, giving a general average of the annual price ot the subsistence of every class of individuals for a whole year? I can only re- member now the three principal branches ; in the first class, containing about one fourth of the popu'ation of a country containing two millions of inhabitants, they made the average per head 40s. ; the second class was 27s. ; this second class contained about half the population, or something about one million ; a third class, containing the remainder of the popu- lation, the poorest class of people, was 18s. per head : this comprehended the whole expenditure of each individual, tor clothing, food, and every other article. In your opinion, and from your observation, is there any probability of a change in the state of society in Hindostan, which you have just stated ? — I do not think horn all I have been able to observe personally, or to learn from reading, that there is any probability of any essential change being produced, unless at a very distant period ; the natives of Hindostan seem now, in their state of society, and in all their customs, to be in much the same state as they were when we first heard of them in history. In your opinion, is there any probability of extending to any great amount the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 206 the use of the woollen manufactures of England among the natives of the Ccloncl colder climates of Hindostan, or the countries to the north and east of I Iin- Thomas Mimrot dostan ? — I do not think that there is any great probability of extending s- — y ' the consumption of the woollen manufactures of England in India, because the natives have already coarse woollens of their own, which answer all the* purposes for which they require thein better than those of England do; there is hardly a native of India who has not already a large piece of woollen, as it comes from the loom, which he uses something as a High- lander does his plaid, he wraps it round him to defend him from the wea- ther, and he sleeps upon it, and it is so much cheaper than any thing which can be made in this country, that until we can very greatly reduce the price of our woollen, we shall never be able to find a market in India for- it ; the thermometer in the greater part of India, in the interior, is for many months in the year generally as low as from forty to sixty in the morning, and the cold is as much felt as it is in this country, except during hard frost; the natives require warm clothing, but they have all their own coarse woollens, and many of the richer sort, who do not use those wool- lens, employ, in their room, quilted- silk and cotton, which is both warm and light. Do the same causes operate in the countries to the north and west of Hindostan ? — I cannot speak with respect to the countries to the north and to the west of Hindostan, from any observation of- my own ; I can only speak trom information, and that leads me to suppose that there can be no material increase in the use of European manufactures in those countries, because they also have coarse woollen manufactures of their own. y Are you able to state to the Committee the prices of the common Woollen cloths manufactured in India, used by the natives? — The com- mon woollen which the natives generally use is a piece, as it comes from' the loom, of about six or seven feet long, by four or five broad ; such a piece generally costs eighteen pence or two shillings, the coarser kind ; the finer kind, much of the same texture as our camlet in this country, is made of a greater length and breadth, about ten feet long, by six or seven broad ; such a piece sells for twelve or fifteen shillings, but it depends a good deal, I believe, upon the markets; in some parts of the country it is dearer, in others it is cheaper : I speak with respect to Mysore. Do the more opulent natives of India, that have much intercourse with Europeans, purchase to any extent European commodities, and for what purposes ? — I think I have already stated, that the consumption of Eu- ropean commodities in India does not depend upon the wealth of the natives, 206 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel natives, that the opulent seem to take no more of them than the poorer Thomas Munro. sort, that it chiefly depends upon the caprice of the individual. Does it fall within your knowledge, that Tippoo Sultan was in posses- sion of European articles to a considerable amount ? — Tippoo Sullan had a considerable quantity of European articles that he had collected from different quarters, of which, I believe, a large quantity had been sent to him from France ; but he made very little use of them ; they were found upon the taking of Seringapatam, most of them, in a lumber room, and, I believe, many of them not unpacked. From your observation, do you think the market for European commo- dities in India is fully equal-to the demand, in all parts where you have been ?— I think the supply was certainly equal to the demand, in every part of India that I have seen. In your opinion, is the present system of trade in India fully adequate to the supply of any probable increase of demand for goods among the natives ; for European commodities ? — The present system of supply is equal, and much more than equal, to any probable increase which is likely to take place. Are not the Indians themselves ingenious in manufactures, and likely to supply themselves, any demand they may have for them ? — The natives in India are ingenious manufacturers, and would be likely to imitate any European manufactures for which they had any particular use, and in a very short time to carry it to such extent as to answer their own supply. Are not the natives of Hindostan very quick in learning any manual operations, or any new arts they may find useful to them ? — They are very quick in learning all manual operations, and all arts which they think will be useful to them. Have you the means of knowing the manner in which the Company provide the investment of piece-goods in India ? — I never was directly concerned in the provision of any of the investments, but I believe that the investments are provided through the agency of an European commer- cial resident, by means of advances given to the weavers, receiving in leturn the cloth at stated periods. Do you know whether those weavers work indifferently for the Com- pany and for any other merchants that may apply to them for the same purposes ? EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 207 purposes ? — The weaver works indifferently for the Company and for pri- Colonel vate merchants, there is no distinction whatever ; he works according to Thomas Munro. the priority of advance; if he receives it first from the private merchant, v " he is first obliged to supply him ; I believe there is a regulation of the government of India to that effect. Has it not come within your knowledge, that where the commercial residents have used improper authority over the weavers, that has been effectually checked by orders of the Company's government in India ? — I have had myself an opportunity of seeing an instance of the kind ; in taking possession of the Barramahl, the country ceded by Tippoo Sultan, in 1792, to the Company, the persons employed in the Company's invest- ment forced the weaver to receive some advances, and to work for the Company to the exclusion of the private merchant; but as soon as the circumstance was represented to government, a stop was put to it; and I believe such a practice has never been renewed. Do the Company's servants ever interfere with the free price of com- modities that are purchased for the Company, in any part of India ? — The Company's servants never interfere with the free price, prices are all open in every part of India. Is not India full of merchants and dealers of every class, that are as intelligent and more economical than ours ? — India is full of merchants of every class, from the pedlar up to the highest merchant ; they pervade every part of the country ; there is no article for which there is the most trifling demand, whether European or Indian, that is not soon carried to" the spot where the demand is, by the travelling merchants ; they have correspondents in every quarter upon the coast, and in the interior, and wherever they hear of a demand, they take care to supply it immediately. Do not you know that the commercial character of the Company is very high, all over India, both for honour and regularity ? — I know that the commercial character of the Company is very high all over India ; but the natives of India make no distinction between the Company and the British government, they consider the purchases made by the Company for the investments in the same light as any other purchases made for the public service, whetherof supplies for the army, of tents, or grain for forts; they scarcely regard them as a commercial body; the natives of India have always been accustomed to see their own governments acting as traders, purchasing articles for the public service at a low price by requisition, and selling them again at an advanced price beyond the market rate; they now sse u. ?«S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel see the purchases made by the Company at a fair market price, and they IFhomus Munvo. are astonished at the moderation of government, so different irom what — __; ( i lev [ lave been accustomed to see under their own native princes : I think that the commercial character of the Company has rather contributed to raise than to depress the character of the nation with the natives of India. In the event of a free trade between this country and India, and English- men being permitted to enter into the interior of the country, is it your opinion that it would be absolutely necessary for the peace and security of the natives, and to prevent their oppression, that the power at present possessed by the local governments in India, to remove such persons in case of misconduct should be continued ? — I am of opinion that the powers which the local governments now possess in India, of removing such persons should be continued ; and that those powers will hardly be sufficient, under a more open trade and a great influx of Europeans, un- less they are confirmed by some act of the legislature in this country. (Examined by the Committee.) Does it come within your knowledge to form a judgment what would be the consequence to the British empire in India, and the British interests in Europe, if the commercial transactions of India were separated from those hands who may exercise the sovereign power ? — This is a complicated question, but I should rather think that by such a separation the power of the Company of carrying into effect their government would be very much weakened. Does it come within your knowledge to form an opinion what may be the proportion of the Hindoos to the Mahomedan population ? — lean only speak of the south of India, but ot that part I can speak with some certainty, as there was a very accurate census taken of that part of Mysore which was ceded by the Nizam to the Company ; the whole population amounted to nearly two millions; the proportion of Mahomedans to all the rest of the population was something more than a twentieth part, less than a nineteenth, about one to nineteen and a half. Do you not think that the whole population of India under the British sway, is at present submissive and apparently contented ? — I think the great mass of the population is certainly both submissive and contented, both apparently and in reality; but there are many chiefs and men of rank, who held situations under the old government, who cannot be expected to EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 50!) to remain contented under any European government by which they arc Colour! themselves excluded from all high situations. Thomas Muryp. Do not you of course conclude that Mahomedans who have been de- prived of those lucrative situations, and situations of power, would put down the British power if they could? — I have no doubt but the Ma- homedans, if they were able, would put down the British government to- morrow, and that the Hindoos, if they were able, would put down both. As long as the Hindoos are well treated by the British power, would the discontented part of the Mahomedans be able to effect any of their purposes ? — I do not conceive that the discontented part of the Mahome- dans would be sufficiently powerful to effect any thing against the Com- pany's government while the Hindoo population is satisfied. Does it not come within your knowledge, that there are at the different presidencies British artisans and manufacturers of almost every description of trade that is exercised in this country, such as coachmakers, carpenters, cabinet-makers, upholsterers, workers in the different metals, workers in all kinds of tanned leather, tailors, and shoemakers? — I believe that all the different artisans and manufacturers enumerated in the question, are to be found at Madras, and that they will in time supply the European establishment in India with all those articles which are now sent from Europe; and that in proportion to the number of those artisans esta- blished there, the export trade of this country will be diminished. Do you perchance know what is the price of a pair of shoes made ia India by an European shoemaker? — I cannot answer that question, be- cause I never bought any shoes in India, except those of the manufacture ©f Europe ; but I believe the price is ten or twelve shillings. The price of shoes made m India ? — Of shoes made in the country by European shoemakers ; they are also made by natives along with those European shoemakers who employ them. Do you conceive that which you have stated to be the price of shoes made under an European shoemaker by native workmen? — Sometimes by native workmen under European shoemakers, and sometimes by European shoemakers themselves. Have not the European shoemakers instructed those native workmen tQ work in the manner they chuse ; and is not the price of their labour so - 2 E cheap. 210 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel cheap, that the European shoemaker would find it most to his interest let Thomas Munro. employ them? — I believe that the European shoemakers have instructed u — *-y ' many of the natives to make shoes alter the European fashion, and that the cheapness of the Indian labourer induces the European to employ him; but many of the Indian shoemakers themselves make shoes of the? country leather, without any connection with Europeans ; they sell them at various prices, it depends entirely upon the quality of the leather ; I have seen them, I think, from a shilling a pair to eight shillings, made of country tanned leather. Are not the woollen cloths which you described as being made in India, and used by the natives, peculiarly adapted to the climate of India ? — I conceive the woollen cloths made by the natives of India, to be better adapted to the climate of that country than what we make here ; they are better for suffering all the rough treatment which they receive from the natives, being thrown upon the ground, and they are likewise, I think,, more water-proof. Are the Hindoo women kept in a state of seclusion ? — The Hindoo women, with the exception of one or two very small tribes, which perhaps do not form one fiftieth part of the population, have as much liberty, and I imagine more, than the women in Europe ; I believe there are no men who have been in India, that may not see the women of all ranks, young and old, bathing every day, not only in retired places, but at large garrisons of Europeans, and without being at all alarmed at the appearance of Europeans. Is their state that of slaves to their husbands ? — Their state is not that of slaves to their husbands, they have as much influence in their families as, I imagine, the women have in this country; I often found them,, when in charge of the ceded districts, very troublesome tenants as formers; I have frequently known women of respectable families, who kept their husbands, and sons grown up, at home, and came to the cutcherry to debate about their rents. If the European regiments were to be reduced, and the infantry of the Company's army were to consist of natives alone, what would be the effect upon the character and the efficiency of the Company's army in general, and on the European officers of native corps and sepoys in particular ? — If such a separation were to take place, I am of opinion that it would tend materially to destroy the efficiency of the Company's army ; it has been a part of our military policy in India to raise the Euro- pean EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 21 i pean character by all possible means, to employ Europeans only in lead- Colonel ing the assaults of all places taken by storm, and to employ them in the Thomas Munra. field in all enterprises where courage is required ; by a separation of the v v ' European part of the establishment from the native, the European part of the establishment will be exclusively employed in all those services in which military renown or distinction is to be acquired : In the sepoy service, the officers cannot be employed, except in all the lower drudgery and fatigue of war, they will in consequence sink in their reputation, and will become in time little better than a kind of country militia ; they will become somewhat like what the sepoys of the French government formerly were, who, being separated from the European branch of the service, were commanded by officers of an inferior description ; the officers, by being excluded from all great occasions of signalizing them- selves, would sink in character, and would be held in no estimation by the officers of the European part of the establishment ; the sepoys whom they commanded would likewise lose their respectability, and the whole native branch of the establishment would then become no better than a. native army is when commanded by Europeans under a native prince ; the European officers of the sepoy establishment, excluded from all distinction, both in India and in their own country, would become dis- contented, and they would most probably in time, sooner or later, by means of a civil war, effect the separation of India from this country. Would these be the probable effects, if the three regiments of the Company's European infantry were reduced ? — I conceive that the reduc- tion of the three Company's regiments of Europeans would most likely be followed by those effects. Did the military character of the sepoy corps, in the French service in India, stand as high, and were they as efficient in the field, as the sepoy corps in the Company's service ? — The military character of the sepoy corps in the French service was very low, and they were by no means so efficient as the Company's sepoys ; I should suppose that one regiment of the Company's sepoys would have dispersed three or four corps of French sepoys ; and I am convinced that this superiority in the Company's sepoys has arisen entirely from their considering themselves as a part of an European army ; the officers by whom they have been trained, were bred in European regiments ; after serving a certain time in European regiments, they were appointed to sepoy corps; and after remaining with sepoy corps some years, they were very often sent back again to command European regiments, or to serve in them, so that there was no distinction in the European officer, whether he was with a sepoy or an European 2 E 2 corps i ~"vr- SI 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel corps ; the Company's sepoy considers himself as forming an integral Thomas Munro. part of the British European army, and it is from that he derives his high ' character and confidence: By a separation of the European infantry, he would regard himself as no better than the common militia of the country ; it would be impossible to maintain any thing like equality in an army divided into two branches, in one branch ot which the officers should be exclusively employed on all distinguished occasions, and the officers of the other branch excluded from having an opportunity of distinguishing themselves; without equality there can be no such emulation as there ought to be ; among military men there must be something like equality to maintain it; in place of emulation, we should have jealousy: Our military establishment in India should be formed upon principles which, while they extinguish all jealousy, should kindle and keep alive emula-. tion. Would then the efficiency of the Company's army be improved by an: increase ot their European establishment, cavalry as well as infantry, so as to admit of the officers, on first entering into the army, being attached for a time to an European regiment before they were permitted to join the native corps ? — The efficiency of the Company's army, I conceive, would be very greatly improved by a considerable addition of European infantry and cavalry; by such an addition as would enable every officer,, upon his first going out from Europe to India, to be employed one or two years with an European regiment, until he had learnt his duty. He ought not to be transferred to a sepoy corps, until, by previously serving with an European one, he had made himself master of all his duties, and likewise, by being in some degree acquainted with the character of the natives, qualified to command, and to act with sepoys. Would any advantages result from filling up the casualties in European.- regiments in India with recruits from Europe, instead of relieving entire regiments ? — I conceive that very great advantages would result from such a practice, because, by sending out recruits only, you have always veteran regiments; the recruits, upon their landing, are thrown into old regi- ments who are acquainted with the mode of living in the country, and the recruit soon becomes a perfect soldier : By sending out intire regi- ments, however excellent the officers may be, from their not being acquainted with the manners of the country and with the modes of living, a, corps upon its first arrival, and sometimes for one or two years after- wards, is quite inefficient; if it is sent to the field, it is rather an incum- brance than an advantage to the army: There is likewise by the system of sending out recruits tubtead of whole regiments, a considerable saving, not. EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 213 rot only in expense, but likewise in the lives of men ; for when regi- Colonel rrients are sent out in a body, from their inexperience in the country mode Thomas Miinro of living, a much greater proportion of them die, than among those ' v ' recruits who are thrown into old veteran regiments established in the, country. Have the military regulations of 1796 removed the discontents and jealousies which had previously prevailed between the King's and Com- pany's troops, and the Company's troops belonging to the different pre- sidencies ? — I do not conceive that the regulations of 1796 have in any degree removed the jealousies that subsisted between the King's and Com- pany's troops, and the Company's troops at the different establishments; it was supposed that those regulations went upon a principle of equality both in rank and emolument, but with regard to emolument, while the Madras army was on half batta, the Bengal army continued to receive full batta, and when serving beyond the province of Bengal, an allow- ance equivalent to double full batta, I believe, until it was struck off by the Marquis Wellesley : with regard to equality in appointment to dis- tinguished situations, there appears to have been very little ; for while the Company had an army of nearly 150,000 men, and I believe above 4,000 officers, and His Majesty's officers in India did not amount to more than 1.000, since 1796 there have, I believe, been fifteen or twenty offi- cers of His Majesty's service appointed to the distinguished situation of commander in chief or governor at the different presidencies, while not a single Company's officer has ever held such a station. What has been the effect on the minds of the Company's officers, by their exclusion from the higher military stations in India, and all marks of honour and public distinction ? — I conceive that the effect produced upon the minds of the Company's officers, by their exclusion from all high stations in India, has been to render them dissatisfied with their, situation. Has not a preference been shewn to His Majesty's officers, in the dis- tribution of military commands generally ? — A preference ht.s in many instances been shewn to His Majesty's officers, in the distribution of mi- litary command ; and remonstrances have in consequence come to this country, which have produced an order to reverse such appointments. Is there not a considerable growth of cotton wool in different parts of India ? — The growth of cotton wool is yery general in most parts of India, Ma.f 8H MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel May not such growth be greatly increased, under proper encourage- Thomas Mtmro. ment ? — I have no doubt but that the growth might be greatly increased ; ,**—- — - v ' there is no particular advantage to the farmer in the cultivation of cotton," he derives no more profit from it than he does from grain. What is the general quality of the cotton wool grown in India ? — I am not sufficiently master of the subject to answer that question particularly 4 all that I know is, that there is a great variety of kinds of cotton wool grown in India, some long staple, and some shorter, some cotton that is biennial, other that is annual. Might not the quality be improved, if proper encouragement were given to it ? — I have no doubt but that the quality might be considerably improved by proper encouragement. Could not, under such encouragement, a supply to any extent be obtained ? — I think that the supply might be carried to any extent. Have they not in different parts of India the seed of the cotton grown in the island of Bourbon, and may not the same be cultivated to produce cotton wool of equal quality in India ? — I have only seen some small experiments made in India upon the Bourbon cotton, and I am doubtful if it can be brought to answer upon a great scale in India, in the climates to which I have been accustomed, because the Bourbon cotton does not grow without artificial watering ; the Indian cotton grows without any watering, it is left entirely to the rain and dew of heaven : but it is probable that the difference of price in the Bourbon cotton might com- pensate for the expence of watering ; there are probably districts in India where there is moisture enough to supply the want of artificial watering. Do you think that an open trade, under the present restrictions in regard to residence, to the principal settlements ot India, would be followed by any consequences likely to disturb the government and tranquillity of that country ? — An open trade under the present restrictions, and supported likewise by an act of the legislature from this country, and such a trade confined to the principal establishments, could not, I apprehend, be pro- ductive of any consequences detrimental to the peace of the country ; it might occasionally produce disputes at those principal settlements, but the European authorities already established there would be quite sufficient •to.controul them. Do you conceive that the number of Europeans now in India would be EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 215 fee greatly augmented by the establishment of an open trade ? — 1 imagine Colonel that at the fir^t opening of the trade, the number of Europeans would be Thomas Munro, very considerably augmented ; but I imagine that, by degrees, that num- s v > ber would limit itself to the demand of the trade ; that no person could remain in India, unless Europeans employed either in trade themselves or as agents for commercial houses ; they could not possibly subsist by manu- facturing, on account of the superior skill of the natives; and if the trade was not greatly increased beyond its present extent, I conceive that the European settlers in that country could not, for any length of time, be greatly increased. Do you think it possible that any considerable portion of Europeans can maintain themselves in India, so as to colonize that country ? — The Eu- ropeans at present, by law, cannot become proprietors of land in India ; they cannot be manufacturers, on account of the superior skill and eco- nomy of the natives ; they are therefore excluded from almost every other means of subsisting themselves, except by trade ; and I therefore conceive that their numbers never could augment so greatly as to make them what might be called a colony. Then the Committee is to understand, that in your opinion, if the co- lonization of India were desirable, it is not practicable ? — I do not think that the colonization of India, under the existing regulations, by which an European in India cannot become a proprietor of the native soil, is practicable ; and supposing it to be desirable, and that that law was re- pealed, I hardly imagine that even then they could colonize to any ex- tent ; they would be borne down by the superior population of the na- tives, more industrious and more economical than themselves* Do you know of any quarrels having arisen with the natives of India, in consequence of the admittance of the Americans into our settlements ? — I never heard of any disputes of that nature, but that might have arisen from my not being upon the spot to which American traders resorted ; I think it very possible that many affrays took place between the American seamen and the natives, as happen between our own and the natives. During the whole or any considerable part of your residence in India, did you acquire that intimate knowledge of the characters and habits of the Hindoo and Mahomedan population, which enables you to form an opinion whether the use of British manufactures might, in the event of a free trade and a considerable reduction in the price, become more gene- rally extensive among the natives ?■— I acquired a very complete know- • ledge 216 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel ledge of the character, both of the Mahomedan and Hindoo population ; Thomas Munro. and from all I have been able to observe, I have very little hope of any 1 » ' material increase being produced, except at some very distant period, upon the export of our own manufactures, even it the price is reduced; because I do not apprehend that there is likely to be such a reduction as can bring our manufactures into competition with those that the natives •require and can produce in their own country : It has been sometimes said, that the natives have a prejudice against the manufactures of Europe ; the Hindoos have no prejudices against the use of any thing that they can convert to an useful purpose, whether European or native manufacture, it is pure as it comes from the hand of the workman to all -Hindoos j but they have one prejudice, which I believe also is a very common one in this country, against the paying a higher price for a worse commodity, and until we can undersell them in such articles as they now require for their own use, we have no hope of extending the use of our own manufactures in India; it is entirely a question of price; whenever we can undersell the Hindoos in any article which they require, it will find its way into the interior of the country without much help Irom the British merchants; it will find its way to the interior in spite of all regulations to prevent it. If the native inhabitants of India possessed the means of purchasing the manufactures of this country, do you think the use of them in India would be gradually increased? — I have no doubt but that the possession of the means ot purchase would tend greatly to facilitate the consumption of European articles in India ; but I imagine that the first use which the Hindoos would make of the improvement of their own circumstances, would be to purchase a larger quantity of their own manufactures, which are so much better adapted to their climate, and so much superior in beauty to ours. Do you believe that a free trade would tend to increase the wealth of the native population of India? — I apprehend that a free trade, so far as it encouraged the manufactures and raw produce of the country, would tend to increase the prosperity of the inhabitants ; and I have no doubt but in one article in particular, that of cotton, an increasing demand would be very beneficial to the country. In the event of an open trade, do you think that in seasons of scarcity at home, large supplies of rice might be procured advantageously from India ? — I imagine that in seasons of scarcity very large supplies of rice might be obtained from India. EAST IND T A COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 21? With reference to the gradual improvement, civilization, and prosperity Colonel of the native population of India, do you think, those objects would be Thomas Mi niro. advanced by the establishment of an open trade, under the restriction;, which v / you conceive to be necessary for securing ihe tranquillity of that country? . — I imagine that an open trade, restricted to the principal settlements, under such regulations as might be established, would be productive of an increase to the prosperity of the country, but that that would be very slow and very gradual : With regard to civilization, I do not exactly under- stand what is meant by the civilization of the Hindoos; in the higher branches of science, in the knowledge of the theory and practice of good government, and in an education, which, by banishing prejudice and su- perstition, opens the mind to receive instruction of every kind, from every quarter, they are much inferior to Europeans: but if a good system of agriculture, unrivalled manufacturing skill, a capacity to produce whatever can contribute to convenience or luxury ; schools established in every village, for teaching reading, writing and arithmetic ; the general practice of hospitality and charity amongst eachother; and above all, a treatment of the female sex, full of confidence, respect and delicacy, are among the signs which denote a civilized people, then the Hindoos are not inferior to the nations of Europe ; and if civilization is to become an article of trade between ihe two countries, I am convinced that this country will gain by the import cargo. When you speak of an open trade, do you speak of a trade limited to the three principal settlements, Calcutta, Madras, and Bombay ? — I speak of a trade limited to those three principal settlements. When you speak of such regulations as might be suggested for carrying en a free trade, so defined by you, without any danger to our possessions in India, what sort of regulations have yju in contemplation ? — The detail of those regulations would perhaps be more extensive than I could imme- mediateiy mention ; but among them I should continue those that now exist in India, supposed by similar regulations established in this coun- try, which should leave no hope of any person being enabled to resiue in India without the licence of government, or of his being enabled to remain there after he should by his conduct have made it necessary to remove him ; it might be necessary to oblige masters of vessels going out to India, to ac- count for all their passengers and crew, and to biing back all who were not permitted by licence to remain in the country; there might be some other regulations, which I cannot at present suggest ; but 1 have no doubt that, by restraining the trade to the three principal establishments, there would 2 E be 21 S . MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel be no difficulty in preserving the peace of the country and the security of Thomas Munro. the government. Is the Committee to understand from you, that unless a free trade was confined to the three principal settlements, and subject to such regulations as you have now referred to, danger might arise to our possessions in India ? — I am of opinion that unless the trade was so restrained, the consequences would be very dangerous to the security of our possessions in India. The Committee is to understand you are of opinion, that unless a power be vested in the government in India, at its own good pleasure to send home any person whom it thought dangerous, inconvenience would arise ? — I am of opinion, that the government could not maintain i(s authority, without such power being vested in it. Do you think that if the legislature should pass a law, declaring that every person in these United Kingdoms should have a right to go to India, to what parts of the coast he pleased, danger would arise to our possessions in India ? — If every person in the United Kingdom were allowed to go to India, and to what part of the coast he pleased, I am of opinion that very great danger would arise to the security of our possessions in that country; there would be constant disturbances at all the little seaports upon the coast; those disturbances might not immediately affect the stability of the government, but they would greatly tend, at a future period of war, or of the invasion of an enemy, to facilitate the overthrow of our power, bv rendering the minds of the natives disaffected to the British government." Do you believe that if the legislature, by law, should enable all British subjects to go to India, and to trade to any part of India they pleased, the regulations now existing could be practically enforced by the East-India Company ? — I do not perfectly comprehend the question, because I should suppose that if all individuals in this country were enabled to go to any part of India they pleased, in order to trade, it would in a great measure supersede the regulations now existing in India ; if the legislature of tins country authorizes persons to go there, without being subjected to the existing regulations, it would be impossible to enforce them against them. Do not the regulations now existing apply to persons going to India v\ ith the permission or the Company ? — The regulations now existing apply to persons going to India with the permission of the Company; but I con- ceive that they would not apply in the same manner under an open trade ; that the people in this country, from ignorance, would suppose that they were EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 219 were independent of those regulations ; any regulations that would be Colonel effectual in restraining Europeans going out to India, must be made in Thomas Manro. this country, under any thing like an open trade. K v ' When you speak of a licence, do you mean a licence from the East-India Company, or the government in India, as the only security there would be against the inconvenience that would otherwise arise from a free trade? — I am of opinion that there can be no other security but such licences, coming either through the East-India Company or the government in India. When you speak of a free trade, you mean a trade limited to the three principal settlem mts, and open only to such persons as shall have the licence of the Company for trading ?— When I speak of a free trade, I mean limited to those three principal establishments, on account of the European authorities that are now established there ; but there are one or two other principal ports, in which, if there were European establish- ments sufficient to controul traders from this country, I should have no ap- prehension of any danger arising from their calling at such places, under proper regulations. By " proper regulations," you mean licences ? — Licences. Do not you believe that if licences were not granted by the Company, but the regulations of the Company still remained in force, to be applied to persons sent out under the authority of the law of this country, the go- vernment in India must necessarily be much lowered in its authority, and that those regulations could not be practically enforced ? — I think that such a measure would have the effect of virtually subverting the authority of the Company in India. Do you think that an open trade from every port of the United King- dom to every port in India, could be efficiently conducted, unless the pro- prietor and the merchant, or his agent, were at liberty to sojourn in the ports or places to which his merchandize should be carried or consigned ? — I should apprehend that such an open trade could not be efficiently con- ducted, unless the proprietor or his agent were permitted to reside at the place to which the goods were consigned. Do you think that unless the present regulations, and perhaps still stronger, were enforc d by this House, in regard to all those agents or per- sons who might think it their interest to settle in those different places, material injury might be done to the British Empire in India ? — Certainly, 2 F 2 unless 220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel unless the same regulations which now exist, and others which it would Thomas Munro. be necessary to establish upon the opening of any thing like a free trade, v ■ y— — -* were applied to those agents. You have stated, that you did not think an open trade could be carried on by British merchants with advantage, unless they or their agents were allowed to reside at the places to which their merchandize was carried ; is it not your opinion that in carrying on an open trade, it would be neces- sary fur those merchants to have agents in the interior of the country, or to be allowed to send their merchandize to the different fairs in the interior of the country ? — I am clearly of opinion that it would be necessary in such a case for the merchants to have their agents in the interior of the country, but I apprehend that those agents never could become numerous ; that in a very short time the merchants would find it much cheaper to employ native agents. Is it not the practice of the East India Company to send their merchan- dize to the fairs in the interior of the country, where it is likely to be in de- mand ? — I am not aware that such is the practice of the East India Com- pany ; I believe that under the government of the Marquis Wellesley an experiment was made in the northern parts of Bengal, by sending up Eu- ropean goods to the fair at Hurdwar, but I believe with very little success ; wherever there are fairs in the interior of the country, there is no occasion for the European merchant to send his goods, he will find plenty of natives to carry them there, at a much smaller expense than he can possibly do, provided there is a demand; there is no great fair, I may add, in any part of India, on the coast or in the interior, no large village having a market, in which such European articles as are in demand are not found; but those articles are very trifling, a few penknives or scissars, or small looking- glasses, or spectacles, compose almost the whole cargo of European goods that are to be found in the interior of India. Can you state the proportion of Christians, Europeans and natives, in that part of India with which you are acquainted ? — I cannot state the proportion of Christians in that part of India with which I am acquainted ; in that part of Mysore in which I was stationed for seven years, in a popu- lation of two millions there were not ten Christians ; on the Malabar coast, I believe that before the accession of Tippoo Sultaun there were reckoned to be very nearly from fifty to sixty thousand Roman Catholic Christians, but the greater part of them were carried into captivity by Tippoo, and very few of them returned ; the greater part of them died in confinement. If EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 221 If the ships of three hundred tons belonging to the open traders, should Colonel be allowed to go armed to India, and should fail in their commercial spe- Thomas Munro. culations, would there not be a danger of their passing the straits of Ma- * -y — ' lacca, and committing outrages on the Chinese junks, and thus exposing this country to a dispute with China? — I am very doubtful if such con- duct would ever take place on the part of the commanders of such vessels ; we have instances of vessels, without passing the straits of Malacca, be- coming pirates; it is, I think, barely within probability that some vessels filled with disappointed adventurers, and passing those straits, might com- mit depredations upon Chinese junks or others; but I am not aware that the Chinese government would break off their connection with this coun- try on account of depredations committed upon the high seas. Supposing the adventurers to fail in their trade at the principal settle- ments, and government not to have the power to send them home, would they not be likely to go into the service of the native princes ?— They would be very likely, failing in their adventures, unless government had such a power of sending them home, to go into the service of the native princes ; there are very few of the lower class of Europeans, who if once allowed to land in India ever wish to quit it. You have stated, that you think it would be necessary that Europeans, trading with the subordinate settlements, should have a licence ; do you think that a licence would be equally necessary for Europeans going to the principal settlements, or would not the power of removing those Europeans at pleasure be sufficient ? — I imagine a licence would be equally necessary in al! cases. You have stated, in a former answer, that an increased demand for the products, and particularly the cotton of India, would be a great advantage to that country ; are you not of opinion that any supply, both of cotton and rice, could be brought to England, without an introduction of the pro- posed system of a free trade ? — I am of opinion that an increase of those ar- ticles might be brought to this country, without the introduction of the proposed free trade ; but I am not certain that the same capital would be employed for that purpose, under the present system, as would be under a free trade. [The further examination of the Witness was postponed. [The Witness withdrew. The Chairman was directed to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. MartiSy 121 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Martis, 13° die Aprilis, 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. Colonel Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, That, Thomas Munro. in order to facilitate the progress of this Committee, in the matters re- v y i ferred to tbem, a Select Committee be appointed, for the purpose of taking the Examination of such Witnesses as shall be ordered by the House to attend this Committee, and to report the Minutes of such Exa- mination, from time to time, to the House. Colonel THOMAS MUNRO was again called in, and examined by the Committee, as follows : In your judgment, would not a very considerable reduction in the freight of cotton afford a facility in the introduction of that commodity in the manufactures of this country ? — This is a question which I cannot easily answer, because I am not acquainted with the prices of cotton in this country. You have mentioned in your evidence yesterday, that you conceived licences would be necessary to persons going to the presidencies for the purpose of trade ; in your judgment does that licence refer to a person going for the purpose of trade, or with a view to residence; in your opi- nion, is any licence necessary for a person going to one of the presiden- cies with a view to trade, and returning by the same ship ? — If a person is going to reside, I should think that the licence would be absolutely necessary ; if he is going to trade, there will be a licence with the ship. In the event of an open trade, a merchant in this country fitting out a vessel to South America, and afterwards proceeding to India for the pur- pose of trade, do you imagine that a licence for that vessel, previously to her proceeding from this country, is necessary ?— I should think that all vessels going to India should be furnished with licences; but pro- ceeding EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, 2 23 ceeding by America, there might be cases in which such a licence might Colonel be dispensed with. Thomas Mum*. If a licence in some cases be not necessary, in order to guard against offence which may disturb the tranquillity of India, on what ground do you think that such licences are necessary, in the event of a direct voyage from this country to India for the purpose of trade and not of residence ? — I should think that in the former case a licence could be dispensed with only on the ground of its being made out, that they could not have known before sailing that it would be necessary to proceed to India ; but although I think it may be dispensed with on particular oc- casions, I should think it a good rule to observe it in all others. Do you conceive any difference would exist in India, whether those licences of which you speak were granted by the East India Company, or, in consequence of any provision to be made by the East India Com- pany, under the direction of the Board of Controul ? — I should think that in this country it is merely a question of arrangement; but that in India all licences going from this country should go from the Company: I should think that while the government of India remains in the hands of the Company, all licences should pass through the Directors. Would any difference exist in India, whether that licence were given directly from the East India Company, upon the application of the mer- chant in this country, or granted by the East India Company in conse- quence of any provision, in an Act of Parliament for that purpose, that they should grant that licence by the direction and controul, and under the authority of the Board of Controul ? — I do not conceive that in this case any difference could exist. Would not a considerable reduction in the expense of the transporta- tion of cotton naturally give advantages to the purchaser of cotton in India, with a view to its sale in this country, and thereby tend to enable him either to give an advanced price in India or to dispose of it upon more moderate terms here ? — The reduction of the charge of freight, in so far as it would enable the coiton to come to this country, would cer- tainly increase the quantity. Would not the increased price which would thus be procured by the cultivator of cotton in India, in the event of a free trade, tend to a con- siderable increase in the cultivation of that commodity ? — Cotton in India does not yield a greater profit in general than common grain, be- cause- 224 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel cause the demand for it is not very considerable ; but every increase of Thomas Mutiro. the demand, which should raise the price, would likewise extend the cultivation and increase the quantity of produce, Are you of opinion that the best of means have been already used of discovering what articles, suitable for British manufacture and consump- tion, are either produced or are produceable in the Company's territo- ries ? — I believe that orders have at different times been sent by the go- vernment of India, to encourage the growth of cotton, but I do not know of any other article for which orders have been sent. Are you not of opinion that if easier access to India were allowed to persons bred to the cotton trade, and more practised and skilled than ge- neral merchants in distinguishing the different kinds of cotton used in British manufactures, such persons would soon discover the situations most favourable for the growth of each sort of cotton, the best means of cultivating therm and of keeping the finer separate from the coarser cottons ? — I should have no doubt that if persons skilled in cotton were admitted into the interior of India, they would probably find the means of improving the quality of the cotton. According to your opinion, would not an open trade give additional facilities and encouragement to such persons as have been described in the last question, to accomplish those objects ? — I am of opinion that all those facilities might be given as the trade now stands, with proper regulations, by granting such persons licences to proceed to the interior, and settle in the situations they best liked. Have such facilities actually been given ? — I do not know that they have been given, or that they have been refused ; in the part of the country where I was, there were no such settlers ; but there are settlers, I believe, in other parts of the country, to whom such licences have been given. Are not the natives of India in the habit of cleaning and preparing cotton for their own spinning, by hand labour? — They clean it for their own spinning, both by hand labour and by a machine, a kind of a bow. Have you had the means of learning how much is added to the cost of the cotton in India by this operation ?— . I have had the means of learn* ing, but I cannot at present recollect it. m Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 225 Do you recollect nearly ? — No, I cannot with any certainty specify Colonel what the cost was. Thomas Maim, v ,, > Do you suppose that a similar operation can be performed at an equally small expense in America, or in any other part of the world, meaning the operation by manual labour ? — Certainly nor in a country where la- bour is not so cheap as it is in India, and I believe there is no country, in which cotton grows, where labour is so cheap. Has not cotton been cultivated in India more with a view to the trade with China than that with Great Britain?- I am only acquainted with the cultivation of corton in the south of India ; I believe that there the cultivation is chiefly for the consumption of the country, and for the investment of cloth, on account of the Company and private merchants* brought to Europe. Have you had the means of knowing whether the Chinese will give a much higher price for the finer and superior, than for the coarser and interior cottons ? — I have not had the means of knowing this. 'iD You have stated, that the opening of the Indian trade to the private merchants of this country would not be dangerous, if confined in India to the three presidencies ; might not the other ports to which the honour- able Company's ships resort, be added with equal security, under the same restraints, as to Europeans, as now prevail at the presidencies? — It could not be extended to all the ports to which the Company's vessels now resort, without considerable danger to the peace of the country, because the ships of private traders are not under the same discipline as those of the Company ; they must be confined either to the principal settlements, or to such settlements as have an European garrison and European magistrates established. In such ports as have those establishments, or where European traders might be placed under the necessary restiaints, is it your opinion that a free t ccess might be allowed without danger? — I think that in such places it might be allowed without danger; there- might be some incon- venience occasionally, but I should suppose there could be no danger. Does not the chief part of the import and export trade of India now entirely fknv to the three presidencies ? — The chief part both of the import and export now flows to the three presidencies, certainly. 2 G Will 22S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel Will it not, under any probable circumstances that can now be con- Thomas Munro. templated, continue to be confined to the presidencies, or to the principal t i seaports where the residence of the great merchants and capitalists of the country now attract it ? — -I imagine that it will always be confined to those places, that there is no probability of its being diverted to any- other at present. Are the Americans confined, by any law in force, to any particular ports in India ? — I am not acquainted exactly with the regulations re- specting the American intercourse with India. Do the Americans, under their present freedom of resort to other ports, chiefly, if not entirely, resort to the three presidencies, particularly to Calcutta, for the purposes of their trade ?— I believe that while the trade was open with America, their vessels resorted chiefly to Calcutta. Are not the goods of the interior brought in great abundance to the principal seaports by the natives, cheaper than if this was done by European agency ? — I am convinced that they are brought cheaper to the seaports by the natives from the interior, than they could possibly be brought by European agency. When the European merchants, settled at the principal seaports, re- quire particular articles from the interior, do they not, generally speaking, find it more for their advantage to employ natives for this purpose, than to proceed into the interior themselves ? — I believe that on such occasions they always employ natives ; that there is scarcely an instance of their going themselves. Are not the Company's exports from this country to India sold at the presidencies and the principal seaports ? — I never heard of their being sent into the interior for sale, and I therefore believe they are sold at the principal seaports. Are they not commonly sold at public sale ? — I believe they are com- monly sold by public sale. Do not native merchants and agents come down from the interioT tq attend those sales? — i do not know that native merchants come- down from the interior to attend those sales. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANTS AFFAIRS. 227 Do you know whether it is common for European merchants to attend Colonel those sales, or are they wholly attended by natives? — I do not know Thomas Munro. whether they are chiefly attended by natives or Europeans, because I *►— — y ' was very little upon the coast during my residence in India ; I was not at Madras for seventeen years, and I do not know that during my residence in India I ever saw a sale ; I only know it from hearsay. Do not the private merchants now established in India, also for the most part dispose of their goods to buyers at the seaports and on the coasts ? — On the Madras establishment, I believe that private merchants generally dispose of their goods at the seaports. Is it not likely therefore that the trade, if now opened as proposed, might be carried on without any great resort of Europeans into the in- terior ? — I imagine that if the trade were opened as proposed, the resort of Europeans to the interior for some time would be considerable; be- cause Europeans going from this country, not being acquainted with the customs of the country, would be more sanguine in their expectations of profit by going to the interior, than those Europeans are who have been some time settled in India, and know that no advantage can be gained by going in person into the interior. Under the circumstances of the trade as to buying and selling, which you have just described, is it likely that those European traders who had once penetrated into the interior and been disappointed, would be induced to go again ? — It is not likely that, after being disappointed, they would think of going again. You have stated, that Europeans going into the interior, might commit excesses and violence which would involve them in unpleasant disputes with the natives, particularly alluding to young men in the Company's service, ignorant, on their first arrival, of local habits and manners; do you not think that private traders, men of sedate habits and pursuits, would be less likely to conduct themselves thus irregularly, seeing they had a manifest interest to conciliate the natives with whom their dealing lay ? — I think that private traders going into the interior, whatever their habits might be, would be likely to commit those excesses, for I scarcely ever knew an instance of any European trader coming into the interior without being involved in some dispute with the natives. Have you known of any instances of private traders going into the interior and committing those disturbances ? — I have heard of many 'I G '2 instances, 228 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel instances, although I cannot exactly recollect particulars. In the district Thomas Munrc. in which I was myself, that ceded by the Nizam, there was only one ^ v ' European trader came into the country while I resided in it; he applied to me for a place to put up in for a few days ; I senr an order to the head man of the village to accommodate him for two or three days; he was shown into an empty house, the master of which had gone on a pilgrimage; he remained there above a month, the master returned ; the private trader, whether a man of quiet habits or otherwise I do not know, would not quit the house; the owner returned, and complained to me; I di- rected the private trader to quit the house, which he did, after receiving the order, in the course of two or three days : it was fortunate for the owner that he (the private trader) was a Dane, had he been an English- man, he would most probably have kicked out the owner, for presuming to molest an Englishman in his castle, and it would have required a suit at law to eject him. I find no difference in traders; whether their habits are quiet or not when they quit this country, they are very seldom quiet when they find themselves among an unresisting people, over whom they can exercise their authority ; for every trader going into India is considered as some person connected with the government. I have heard, that within these two or three years, I think in Bengal, in 1810, private traders, indigo merchants, have put inhabitants of the country in the stocks, have assembled their followers and given battle to each other, and that many have been wounded. Do you know whether the private trader you allude to, knew the master of the house to be it's owner, when he applied for admission into it ? — I am perfectly certain that he knew him to be the owner. Do you know any instance of an English trader committing any such violence within any district subject to your authority ? — No English trader ever came into any district that was subject to my authority. From what is above stated, in respect to the natural course of the import and export trade of India, as it is probable that few European traders would require to go into the interior, might not those few be easily placed under such legal restraint as to prevent serious commotion ? — 1 think that I have answered the substance of this question, in an answer to a former one, in which I stated, that such persons might be allowed to proceed to the interior with a licence, and to be removable at ihs discretion of government. By EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 22Q T3y the existing regulations in India, can any European tradVr remain Colonel there without the permission of government ? — He cannot. Thomas Munro. Can any European go into the interior of the country, to any greater distance than ten miles from the presidency where he resides, without the permission of government ? — Not beyond ten miles, without the permission of government. Can any European, of any description, even travel through the in- terior of the Company's territories, without a passport ? — Before the war with France, civil and military servants of the K'ng's and Company's service, required no passport; but since the commencement of the war with France, all Europeans, whether in the service of the Company or not, cannot travel without a passport. Would not such European be stopped at every village or military station he came to, unless he- had this passport ? — He certainly would be stopped, unless he had a passport. Do not our treaties with the native princes of India, prohibit their en- tertaining Europeans and Americans in their service, without the permis- sion of government ? — Our treaties with the principal Indian states pro- hibit their entertaining Europeans, and I believe Americans, without the permission of government ; but I still think that, notwithstanding those treaties, they would entertain them, although not in great numbers; not: as bodies of troops, they would retain them as artificers of different kinds;^ but there are also many feudatories under all those great states, who would entertain Europeans without any reserve, and without any controul from their government. "V" D v Which are the feudatory states to which you allude ? — I could not par- ticularize the whole of them, because I imagine there are above a hun- dred zemindars and polygars of all descriptions, petty rajahs, such as the rajah of Solapoor under the Nizam, who would give refuge to all per-' sons, not only Europeans, had they gone there, but to all rebels, both from the Company s territories and those of the Nizam. Would it be possible, in your opinion, for the principal native princes of India, or their feudatories, to entertain such Europeans or Americans in their service, without the knowledge of o,:r political residents at the native courts of those princes ? — Such Europeans could not, without the knowledge of the resident, be entertained by the native princes in their own 230 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel own capitals ; but they might be entertained in other parts of the coun- Thomas Munro. try, and likewise by all their petty tributaries, without its ever reaching 1 y^ — — ' the knowledge of any resident. Are you acquainted with an attempt once made by the French to land adventurers on the coast of the Concan, who afterwards tried to get ser- vice in the Mahratta armies ; and do you know, or did you ever hear of this coming instantly to the knowledge of Colonel Close, then resident at Poonah, and his remonstances to the durbar of Poonah, preventing his- ever getting active employment ? — I am not acquainted with the circum- stance, but I have no doubt of the accuracy of it. Did you ever hear of those French adventurers being seized and de- livered up to the British government ? — 1 have heard that those French adventurers were delivered up. Can any European purchase land in India, or become in any other way a proprietor thereof, without the permission of government ? — Not with- out the permission of government. Cannot the governments of India now send any Europeans, not in the Company's service, out of India, without assigning a cause? — They can. Are not the Company's servants in authority in the districts of the in- terior, now obliged to make periodical returns of the Europeans residing- within their several districts, and of their general demeanour and con- duct ? — I received no instructions to that effect, nor do I know that any such were issued by the Madras government ; returns of Europeans,, where there were Europeans, were sent, but I do not know that any ac- count was given of their demeanour. Are not the lower classes of European traders, such as shopkeepers and others, now settled at the different presidencies, remarkable, generally speaking, for their respectability and orderly conduct ? — I am very little acquainted with the characters of such Europeans, because I was very little at any presidency. Do you know whether it is usual for Europeans going to reside in the interior, to enter into an engagement, subjecting themselves in civil cases., to the jurisdiction of the Adawluts ? — It is usual I believe. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 231 Are not the judges of those Adawluts also justices of the peace, and Colonel in the legal exercise of that authority ? — They are likewise justices of the Thomas Munro. peace. Can those judges and magistrates, from the nature of their office, resist any order of the government of the country to send an European out of the district, whose conduct had been offensive, or otherwise so irregular as to require his removal ? — Certainly not. You have stated, that there exists no religious prejudice among the natives of India against the use of British manufactures, but that long established habit, and the greater cheapness of their own commodi- ties, lead the natives to give those a preference ; in as far, therefore, as this question has reference to the poverty of the people, would not the increased wealth of the natives produce the game effect as the great re- duction of price mentioned by you in augmenting the demand for our commodities, since in both cases the goods would equally fall within the means of the respective purchasers ? — I have said, in an answer to a for- mer question, that any improvement in the circumstances of the natives, would induce them to apply their superfluous wealth, rather to the purchase of their own commodities, than of those sent from Europe ; because I have not observed, that, among the rich natives, those who have super- fluous wealth, there is any more disposition to purchase our commodities than among the poor. Is not the woollen or hair manufacture, alluded to by you in your evi- dence last night, as in common use among the natives of India, called The Comely ; and are not those comelies chiefly used by the lower classes? — The comelies are used both by the lower classes and the higher classes; the lower classes have the coarser sort, the higher classes the finer. Are they not necessary, in every part of India, to guard against the inclemencies of the weather, particularly the rainy season ? — They are necessary in almost every part of India to guard against the inclemencies of the season. Have you observed that those comelies, particularly the coarser kind, are common articles of dress among the higher elasses of natives ? — I have not observed the higher classes of the natives use the coarser kind in common dress ; many of the higher classes of the natives do not use either the coarser or the finer kind ; many of them use shawls in place of them, and quilted cotton and silk stuff, which are equally warm as comelies; 232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel Thomas Munro. y .^ — _, comelies ; comelies are in more general use among the poorer than the- richer class. Do you allude to the ceded Districts, when you talk of the finer comelies bung in use among the higher classes of natives ? — I allude both, to the ceded Districts and to the neighbouring countries. Do you know whether they are commonly used by the higher cbsses o£ natives in other parts of Ind a? — I do Do not the richer natives of India admire and buy our cut glass ware ; and are not their houses gommbnlj furnished with chandeliers, lamps, mirrors, and other articles of European manufacture?- -. have scarcely ever seen five men in India whuic houses had either a chandelier or other glass ware in them. 2H Do 234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C limel Do you allude to the towns in the interior, or to the richer commercial Thomas Munros seaports? — I allude to all towns, except those immediately upon the v v / coast, where there may be a few natives that have houses so furnished to please their European guests. Do not the richer natives at the different presidencies commonly drive European carriages ? — I believe that some ot them at the different presi- dencies do drive European carriages. Is it within your knowledge, or have you ever heard, that in Bombay in particular there is not a single native of eminence who does not use those carriages ; that many natives have an establishment of six or eight carriages, and several of those superb equipages ? — I have not heard par- ticularly what equipages are used by the principal native inhabitants of Bombay, but I believe that they are chiefly Parsees, not Hindoos. Have you ever heard that there is not a native of eminence in Bombay, whether Parsee, Mahomedan, or Hindoo, that has not a house superbly furnished with European furniture ? — No, I cannot say that ever I have heard of the particular kind of house in which the principal natives of Bombay reside. Are not the finer, and some of the more elegant manufactures of Bri« -tain, also in demand among the richer natives; elegant guns, for exam- ple, pistols, watches, and articles of that description ? — I believe that among a very few of the richer natives, such articles as pistols and guns are sometimes in demand, but very seldom ; I believe they rather expect them as presents than as articles to be purchased. Are not the natives to whom they are presented, much pleased with •them as presents ? — I believe they are pleased. Do not the native princes of India, and the richer inhabitants of the interior, often send large commissions to the different presidencies, for the purchase of the rarer and finer articles of British manufacture ? — I do not know that they often send such commissions, I think it very possible that they do so occasionally. Have you ever heard of such commissions being sent from Poonah, from Hydrabad, or from Oude ? — I have heard of such commissions being sent both from Hydrabad and from Oude, but not from Poonah ; and EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 235 and I believe that their being sent was principally on- account of their Colonel connection with Europeans. Thomas Munr; I v .- j Have you ever seen the richer natives of India dressed in Irish linen, or Scotch and Manchester cambrics ? — I never did. Do you know the price of the Scotch and Manchester white cloths, in India ? — I do not. Did you ever hear that they can be sold cheaper in India than the Ma- dras long cloths ? — T never heard that they could be sold cheaper than the Madras long cloths ; but I suppose that, even if they were sold cheaper, they would not be preferred to them, because the Madras long cloths are much pleasanter to the wear, more durable, and wash better. Did you ever see the printed cottons of this country used by the na- tives as articles of dress, and in furniture ? — Very seldom, except among ■ natives attached to Europeans on the coast. If you were to be informed from good authority of commissions being actually sent to England by natives for those articles, for their own use, would you be induced to believe that the consumption of those articles might become more general, if the means of the natives admitted of their being purchased ? — I should suppose that if the natives sent commissions to England for the purchase of those articles, and afterwards repeated their commissions occasionally, that the consumption would be extended; but I believe it frequently happens that they give a commission for arti- cles, and do not repeat it a second time after having seen them. Are you of opinion that if the cotton goods of this country, suited to the tastes of the natives, whether of those countries which you have vi- sited, or of others, c; uld be imported into India, so as to undersell the , manufactures of the country, there is any religious or other prejudice prevailing in India, that would induce the natives, of whatever casr, per- tinaciously to reject the cheaper commodity ? — Provided those manufac- tures suited their taste, and were cheaper than their own, there is no pre- judice that would prevent them from purchasing. In any of the countries which you have visited, have you everseen Norwich shawls in use among the natives, or do you know, or have you ever heard, whether they are admired and used by natives in other paits of India ? — I have never seen such shawls in use among the natives : but 2 H 2 from 236 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel from my own observation of the taste of the natives, I have often thought Thomas Mur.ro. that they would be an article more likely to find a sale in India, than ^~ — v ' most of the European articles that go there. Have you seen in print, or otherwise, an account of the export by private traders to India, since the year 1800? — I have seen such an ac- count, without now remembering the particulars. Can you call to your recollection, whether those accounts or state- ments exhibit a great increase of export by the private traders? — I be- lieve they exhibit a considerable increase of export by the private traders. Have the Company's exports, during the same period, diminished? — I cannot from my own memory answer that question. You have represented the habits and mnnneis of the native Indians to be very much fixed, and little prone to change ; have you ever contem- plated the effect of long established despotism, in necessarily producing such a state of manners in every society ? — I believe that ithere has been long established despotism amongst most of the nations of Asia; but that their manneis have not been equally fixed as those of the Hindoos. Are you inclined to think, from your long experience and great know- ledge of India, that the fixed manneis and habits of the Hindoos are in some, or in any degree, to be ascribed to the despotic nature of the go- vernments under which they have so long lived ? — I think that those habits and manners, being of so fixed a nature, are less owing to the despotism of their government, than to their own civil institutions. What is the nature of the Indian governments generally ? — The nature . of Indian governments, in general, is that of a pure despotism, but usually mildly administered. Does it occur to you, that the ancient governments of India exhibit in them any thing like the former feudal institutions in Europe? — The ancient governments in India, in my opinion, have very little resemblance to the former feudal institutions of Europe. Have they any ? — I do not know that they have any. Have you ever contemplated the effects of commerce in the western world, the share it has had in oversetting or softening the despotisms, and ""V" EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 23/ and changing tne established manners of Europe, and in improving and Cohnel enlightening the stare of European society generally ? — I have seen and Thomas \Iunra observed that the effect of commerce has been that of very greatly tend- i. ing to the enlightening of most of the nations of Europe. Have not those blessings and improvements been established in Eu- rope, in very many cases, in despite of strong local and national preju- dices ; and even in despite of the most strenuous efforts of human power to oppose them ? — I beiieve that they have. If the same causes were to be allowed to have free operation in India, and to receive a just and prudent support from government instead of opposition, what in your opinion would be the gradual effect on the manners and prejudices of the Indians ? — If the manners and customs of the Indians are to be changed, I think, it likely that they will be changed by commerce ; but commerce does not seem to have produced much effect upon them. Do you think that there is any thing in the natural disposition, pas- sions, or prejudices of the native Indians, that would lead them perma- nently to resist the silent operation of causes, which would thus multiply to them the blessings of life, and which have been productive of effects as irresistible as beneficial in other countries, and among other classes of human society ? — I do not imagine it would lead them to resist the ope- ration of such causes permanently ; but that it would be very long before any change was effected. Have you ever heard the commercial character and proceedings of the Company talked of by those natives, who either dared or had confidence enough in you to speak on the subject, in terms of complaint or disre- spect ? — I never heard the commercial character of the Company talked of by any natives except with respect. Have you ever seen any official vouchers, in print or otherwise, stating the grounds on which the permanent settlement was introduced into Ben- gal ? — I have seen the proceedings on that subject, which have been pub- lished in an Appendix to the Fifth Report of the Select Committee on the Affairs of the East India Company. Do you know whether the average of the collections of a certain num- ber of years preceding the permanent settlement was assumed, as the amount of the land revenue expected to be derived from the country under 238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel vmder the permanent settlement ?— I believe that the average of a certain Thomas Munro. number of years collection previous to the settlement, was assumed as '<_ _'_^, 1 the foundation of that settlement. Do you know what the rate of the collection of the land revenue was at this period, that is, what portion of the pioduce of the soil was taken as the tax of government ? — I cannot with any certainty state what por- tion of the produce of the soil was taken as the tax of government ; that must have entirely depended upon the accuracy of the accounts, and the mode in which the investigation was carried on. Do you know what portion of the produce of the soil was considered at this period to be the tax of government? — I believe that the propor- tion varied in different districts, that it was from one- fourth to one half. Was not one half of the actual produce of the soil the common rate of revenue collection in the Company's districts in Ir.dia, previous to the introduction of the permanent settlement ? — In all the parts of India of which I have any accurate knowledge, I believe that from one third to one half was the usual rate supposed to be the share of government. Have you ever seen any documents, in print or otherwise, stating the great confusion and vexation that existed in Bengal, wiien this system of collection was enforced, and previously to the introduction of the perma- nent settlement ? — I have seen documents, stating that such inconve<- niences existed in those countries previously to the permanent settlement. As the average of the collections of this period of confusion, was taken as the basis of the permanent settlement, is there not as much land revenue taken from the country of Bengal under the permanent settie- ' ment as before ? — If the average of a period of confusion is taken as the basis of a permanent settlement, the proportion after fixing that settle- ment will not be so great, because the country improving will leave more to the inhabitant and less to the government ; the more confused the pe- liod is at which the average is taken, and the permanent settlement made, the more it is in favour of the ryot. In times of confusion, parti- cular districts frequently do not pay one-fourth of the rent, which they pay five or six years afterwards, in times of tranquillity. Is this benefit likely to accrue to the inhabitants, when the revenues exacted from them on the principle of taking one half of the actual pro- duce of the soil, has been enforced as a system fof a long precedent pe- riod EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 23() riod of years ? — I should think that if the principle of taking one half Colonel rigidly has been enforced fqr a long period of years preceding, the pro- Thomas Mutirt. duce will be small in proportion to the nature of the soil. l ./•— ■* When the permanent settlement was introduced upon this basis into Bengal, and the net rent of estates fixed, do you know the proportion which government took of that net rent, as their own tax? — I am not acquainted with the proportion which government took as their own tax. Have you ever seen it stated in print on any occasion ? — I have seen it stated in print, but I do not exacdy recollect the proportion at present; I should suppose it must have varied in different districts, according t® the accounts which were received. Can you recollect whether it is not stated in a publication, said to be written by Mr. Colebrooke, of Bengal, that this tax averages ten-ele- venths of the net rents of the estates ? — I have not seen it in the publi- cation of Mr. Colebrooke ; but I know, in general, that the allowance granted to the zemindar or farmer was about one-tenth or one-eleventk of the net rent : government receive the rest. [The further examination of the Witness was postponed.] [The Witness withdrew. The Chairman was directed to report Progress and ask leave to sit again. Meratirij, ■2iO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mercury, 14° die Aprilis 1813. Stephen Rumbold Lushington, Esq. in the Chair. Colonel THOMAS MUNRO was again called in, and further examined by the Committee, as follows : Colonel Have you not stated in an official report, dated the 15th of August 'JliomasMunro. 1507, that one half the actual produce of the soil, or nearly so, was the 1 V ' rate of collection under the Mahomedan government of India ? — I have stated that one half of the produce of the soil was the share of government, under the Mahomedan government. Have not you stated also, that the assessment of the emperor Acbar, which is so often quoted in Indian revenue proceedings, and which is called a nominal third, or nominal fourth, was in reality nearly one half of the produce ? — I have so stated. Do not you also understand it to have been the expressed opinion of the emperor Aurungzebe, that one half of the produce was, in general, enough for the ryots ? — 1 have stated that opinion. Did not the British government continue the same rates of collection, in the districts conquered by our arms from the Mahomedans ; and has it not, as a general principle, been considered that one half the produce was in fact the rate of government ? — Our government continued the rates of assessment which they found established in the countries which they con- quered from the Mahomedan government ; I believe in some cases they rather lowered them, but in none increased : the usual principle of as- sessment in most countries of India, has generally been considered as half to govtrnment and half to the cultivator. Have you ever seen, in print or otherwise, a report on the districts subject EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, 241 subject to the Madras government, which led to the introduction of the Colonel permanent settlement under that presidency ? — I never saw that report. Thomas Munro. Have you ever seen, in print or otherwise, a letter of the supreme go- vernment on that report ? — I never saw the letter of the supreme govern- ment on that report ; I have seen a letter of the supreme government to the government of Madras, directing the permanent settlement to be in- troduced ; but I am not perfectly certain whether it refers to this report or not. Do you remember, in that letter which you have seen, that the supreme government have expressed an opinion on the state of the Madras districts, to the following effect : That they found these valuable possessions, namely, the northern circars and the other ancient possessions of the Company on the coast of Coromandel, to be destitute of every institution which can either promote the ease and happiness of the people, or the vigour and efficiency of government ? — I believe that it was so stated in that letter. Do you know whether the collections of this period, under the Madras government, were assumed as the basis of the permanent settlement adopted there ? — As far as I can remember, the basis of the permanent settlement was founded upon an average of a number of years preceding collection. Do you know what aggregate amount of land revenue is taken in the Madras districts under the permanent zemindary or mootidary settlement, and what was the aggregate amount previous to its introduction ? — I do not know whether this amount applies to the proportion taken by the go- vernment, or the amount of the whole revenue. To the amount of the whole revenue, in both cases ? — I do not exactly recollect the amount of the revenue, in both cases, or in either case ; but I believe that it was not much less after the settlement than it was before ; government, in their own share, founded upon taking half the produce, relinquished in favour of the zemindar or farmer, I think, about fifteen per cent. Was that fifteen per cent of the gross produce ? — The fifteen per cent was from the government share of the produce, not of the gross produce. Can you state, from your own knowledge, when this permanent set- 2 I tlement "V" 212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel IhoihasMunro. tlement was introduced at Madras, what was the proportion of produce 1 y -> secured to the ryot ? — I cannot state exactly what the proportion of pro- duce secured to die ryots was, but I believe that it was from one-half to two-thirds of the produce. Do you understand that the situation of the ryot at Madras was at all bettered by the introduction of the permanent settlement ? — In all those diitricrs with which I am acquainted at Madras, into which the permanent settlement was introduced, 1 believe that the condition of the ryot was improved, because his rent was not increased ; in many places it was lowered, and it was likewise more certain. Do you conceive that, when for a long series of years land revenue has been collected from the ryots at the rate of one half the actual produce of the soil, any change of system, which still takes from them the same amount of revenue, is likely materially to improve their condition gene- rally ? — If one half the produce continues to be exacted, I do not see how their condition can be improved ; but when the rent is fixed upon the pro- duce, collected in times of uncertainty, after a certain period, when the ryot has been in the secure enjoyment ot a fixed rent, his lands improve and the produce increases, and what was originally one half, perhaps is only one Fourth: I should say that in all districts with which I am now acquainted, if the settlement is fixed upon the half, and continued at that rate without any extra assessment, and a period ot peace follows, that in a very short time the half will be a third, and in many instances not a fourth, and not even a fifth ; I have known hundreds of examples myself to that effect. Can the zemindar or mootidar, in your opinion, accumulate any con- siderable degree of wealth under the system described, and with the small share of the produce which you say has been apportioned to the zemindar, except when he may be possessed of an extensive estate ? — Not unless he is possessed of an extensive estate ; but in cases where he is not only zemindar, but likewise himself the farmer, he may in that case certainly acquire considerable property. Is it common for the mootidars under the Madras government to become the ryots of their own estates? — I believe that the greater part of the mootidars under the Madras government are mootidars and ryots, they were ryots before they became mootidars, and continued so afterwards. Are the mootidaries under the Madras government, extensive or li- mited ? EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 243 rnited ? — They are extensive in some districts; but I believe in those that Colonel •were last settled, the average was horn three to live thousand pagodas, Thomas Munro. or from one to two thousand pounds, annual rent. < v ' Is not the possession of extensive zemindaries, under the existing cir- cumstances, manners and dispositions of the natives or India, dangerous to the public tranquillity ? — Extensive zemindaries under the management of a military chief are certainly dangerous to the tranquillity of the govern- ment ; but I imagine that in time al! those zemindaries must break up, because as there is no right of primogeniture, the zemindaries will be divided among all the sons of the family. Is it possible for the Courts of justice now constituted, effectually to restrain the excesses or oppressions of those great zemindars? — Not of all the great zemindars, but of the greater part of them. Have not you stated in your official report before alluded to, that the zemindary system is on the whole detrimental to the country, and dan- gerous to government ? — I have so stated, alluding to large zemindaries. In making that remark, did you believe or understand that the situation their purchases, tend to weaken the authority of the government in the opinion of the natives ? — I do not know that any reduction in the number of the commercial servants would have that effect, but as long as there was a sufficient number left to carry on the duties of the department, it would not affect the character of the Company's government in the eyes of the natives. If the commercial department should be abridged, and still more, if it should be suppressed, could the remaining departments, political, revenue, and military, be equal to the support of the British authority in India i — I should apprehend that even if the commercial departments were sup- pressed, the remaining departments would be able to maintain the autho- rity of the British government in India, but not with the same ease as when those departments remain. Would not the effect of this diminution tend to lower the opinion, of the native military officers and soldiers, of the power and authority of the Company and of the European officers by whom they were commanded, and consequently their allegiance ? — The number, I believe, of Com- pany's servants, both military, civil, and commercial, are occasionally reduced : I conceive that a reduction, as long as the remainder are suffi- cient to carry on the duties of the department, can have no bad conse- quences among the natives. In your opinion ought not licences to individuals to go to India, to be granted by the East-India Company, whose authority is paramount in India ? — Undoubtedly, I have stated that in an answer, I think, to a former question. What would be the effect, in your opinion, if licences to go to India were granted by the Board of Commissioners, independently of the Company, and the persons holding such licences were on their arrival in India to be subject to the regulations of the Company? — I should think that such a mode of granting licences would interfere with the duties of the Company's government, both in this country and in India. Under the permanent settlement, are not the zemindar and the ryot entitled to all the benefit of extended improvement in cultivation ; is not this engagement secured under the Company's faith, and is not this security an effectual incitement to the general improvement of the country ? — The ryots EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 255 ryots and zemindars are secured in the enjoyment of all improvements, Colonel either in the land actually under cultivation at the time of settlement, or Thomas Munro. of such wastes as may be brought into cultivation at any future period. Were not the customs on articles of commerce generally suspended when the permanent settlement was made ? — I believe those customs were ge- nerally suspended when the permanent settlement was made. Do you not think that the renewal of those customs and duties, under judicious regulations, will enable the government to share in the growing prosperity of the country ? — I certainly am of opinion that, to a certain extent, the renewal of those customs would enable government to share in the growing prosperity of the country ; but I apprehend that the revenue which would be realized from that source or from any tax upon consump- tion, would not be of any great amount. Do you know that since the permanent settlement was established in the southern pollams, the zemindars have paid double the amount of their former tribute, have been obedient to the government, and have refrained from oppression and depredation in the neighbouring districts ? — I know that the zemindars in the southern pollams have paid double the amount ot their former tribute, and that since the permanent settlement they have>. for the first time since they were under the Company's government, been obedient subjects, and refrained from committing depredations on the neighbouring districts. Do not you think that a permanent settlement of the revenues of any district, calculated upon moderate principles, and secured by an adminis- tration of justice that shall protect the ryots from extra assessment, must conduce to the prosperity of the district so settled in perpetuity ? — I have no doubt that such a settlement would greatly contribute to the prosperity of the countries into which it might be introduced ; but in speaking of permanency, I should introduce no system that should be unalterable, [ would always reserve to the government the power of imposing an ad- ditional land tax in times of war and other emergencies, which I suppose the country would be able to bear if the settlement were founded on mo- derate principles.. Do you contemplate any probable increased demand for woollens, glass* or other European articles, which cannot be amply supplied through the present medium ot the Company's commerce, including the private and privileged trade, and at as reasonable prices as the respective articles will admit 256 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel admit of? — I do not contemplate any probable increase of demand of Thomas Munro. glass, woo/lens, or any other European articles, which mny not be sup- v — v— — ~" ' plied amply through the present medium of the Company's and private trade ; but with regard to the prices at which those articles Can be furnished in India, I am not sufficiently master of the subject to know whether it might be done cheapest as the trade is now carried on, or by a freer trade. Do not you understand that articles are now carried out by the com- manders and officers of ships free of any charge or freight ; and do not you conceive that must give the present system a considerable advantage, with respect to the prices at which the articles can be sold in India? — I have no doubt but that those articles going out now free of freight, gives 'the present system a considerable advantage ; but how far this advantage may be counterbalanced by shorter voyages, I cannot say. Has there been any want of European articles, such as the natives have been disposed to purchase ? — There never has been any want of such articles. Have the natives in the interior had ample opportunities of making such purchases, when they have been so disposed ? — The natives in the interior have had ample opportunities of making such purchases, the same oppor- tunities as they have of purchasing the goods of their own country. Have not you understood that tin in any quantity may be obtained from the island of Banda, and at a cheaper price than the Company are obliged to pay for that which they export from this country ? — I have heard that tin may be obtained from the island of Banda, and likewise from other places to the eastward, at a much cheaper price than the Company now pay. [The following Question and Answer were read over to the Witness : " Is it your opinion that the present rate of the produce taken " from the ryots, on the lands in general, admits of the improvement " and increased cultivatiwn of the country ? — The rate taken from " the ryot, I believe, though nominally the same in general, is in " many places very different, according to the accuracy of the " accounts upon which the assessment was founded ; I believe that ** in some places the rate of assessment upon the ryot is as easy as uoon EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AVFAttlS. ^7 * upon the inhabitants of almost any other country, and quite suf- Colonel, C! ficient to enable them to extend their cultivation." Thomas Munro, --w— ■'■ " ■ — J To what proportion of the land, from which rent is taken, do you conceive that answer lo apply ? — I cannot state with any precision the proportion, but I should imagine one fourth of the land, probably ; that in the remaining part-, the assessment, though higher, is not such as to prevent the gradual though slow progress of improvement. Are you acquainted with the rates of duties exacted by the Company from the private merchants who resort to the provinces of Canara and Malabar (or the produce of those countries ? — 1 once was acquainted with those lates, because I drew up tables of them myself, but I do not now recollect them ; it is probable that they have since that time under- gone a considerable alteration. Have you heard that the duties paid upon pepper and other produce are equal to twelve per cent ? — I have an imperfect recollection of their amounting to that rate, but I am not certain. Is not the whole of the sandal wood monopolized by the Company ?— I cannot speak with respect to the Malabar coast; the sandal wood in Canara, the only part with which I was acquainted, was in general, I be- lieve, left to the proprietors of the land on which it grew; there were many forests which were considered as public land, in which it was re- served to the Company. Have you heard that the whole of the timber is monopolized by the Company? — I have not heard that there is any such monopoly, unlest where the forests are the property of the public. [The Witness withdrew. WILLIAM ROE, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Adam^—^Loa are at the head of the Board of Customs, first Com William Roe missioner ? — One of the Chairmen of the Board of Customs. I£ 4 q # Have you had an opportunity of considering the probable effect of throwing open the Indian trade, in respect of smuggling? — That matter has' been very fully considered by the Board of Customs, in consequence 2 L of "V •- v :8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wifiium Rcf, of references from the Lords of the Treasury; they hive obtained all E i q. the information they could from the most intelligent officers at the out- ports, and from the most competent officers in the port of London; and having fully weighed the information thus obtained, they have made a report upon the subject, which comprehends what they have thought right and "fir, upon the most mature and deliberate consideration. Have they, in consequence of that investigation, reason to believe that the smuggling of teas or Indian goods has taken place to any consi- derable extent in the-course of the last four or five years ? — They have annexed to that report an account, which states the seizures that have been made in those years ; they have reason to believe that there has smuggling taken place, but to what extent I am not prepared to answer. Can you state in what ports or places the smuggling has chiefly exist- ed ? — That account distinguishes the ports where the seizure has been made ; I apprehend the smuggling has principally been upon the arrival of the vessel in the channel, in her transit along the coast, and in her passing up the river, till her final delivery at this port. Can you state in what manner this illicit traffic and ssiuggling has been carried on ? — I apprehend principally from boats or vessels meeting the arriving vessel in the cours* of such transit, and by some occasional smuggling from the vessel in the rivsr. Upon the supposition < f the import trade from India being extended to the outports of the kingdom, and not being confined to the port of London, do you consider that the danger of smuggling would be in- creased ; and if you think it would be increased, are you able to state in what degree it might be increased ? — I consider the danger of smuggling would be increased, but in what degree, I am not enabled to state. Can you assign the reasons that induce you to think it would be in- creased, the question having relation to the outports generally? — I ap- prehend that would depend very much upon the situation of the port, upon theestablishment of the officers in that port for the prevention of smuggling, and upon other local circumstances. According to the present system, the importation from India is brought directly to the port of London, and is warehoused in the Company's ^warehouses, and now carried into their wet dock; upon the supposition thai EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S APFAHtS. 939 that that continued no longer the case, but that the importation from JV/Ju been able to observe with regard to the mootidars, they are in tome places the ancient hereditary head farmers of the village, who formerly exercised the profession of farmers in cultivating land belonging to themselves, and acted in the capacity of collectors of the village rent to government ; those mootidars now continue to cultivate their own farms, and likewise to re- ceive, like the great zemindars, a portion of the government rent of the whole village, or villages (for there are sometimes three or four in one mootar) amounting to about fourteen or fifteen per cent of the government share of the rent : other mootidars arc men who never had any connection with the cultivation of the country, merchants and adventurers of ail kinds, who have purchased what is called the mootidar's share, or 15 or 16 per cent of the government share of the produce ; they receive this share, and become answerable for the rents of the village, they are proprietors like- wise of all the waste land in the village, but are not in general cultivators or farmers themselves. Have the goodness to explain to the Committee what you understand by the ryotwar system ? — I shall state what I understand to be the prin- ciple of the ryotwar system, the details will perhaps be too extensive : the principle of the ryotwar system is, to fix an assessment upon the whole land of the country; this assessment is permanent; every ryot, who is likewise a cultivating proprietor of the land which he holds, is permitted to hold that land, at a fixed assessment, as long as he pleases ; he holds it for ever, withrutany additional assessment ; if he occupies any waste or additional land, he pays the assessment that is fixed upon that land, and no more, his rent undergoes no alteration. Do you consider the intervention of a zemindar, or a mootidar, neces- sary for conducting the business of the revenue with the ryots ? — I think the intervention of either of those characters is perfectly unnecessary, and that it is upon the whole to be lamented ; and that the business of the collection of the revenue can best be conducted by the old office established in every Hindoo village, held by the person called the potail, who is the head farmer of the village, and cultivator himself, and likewise the here- ditary collector and magistrate of the village under all Hindoo governments. Have the goodness to inform the Committee what might have been the extent or the country, under the denomination of the ceded provinces, that was under your, special management ? — The whole of the ceded pro- vinces were under my special management ; no geographical survey had taken place during the period I was in India, but the number of acres by an FAST-INDIA COMTANY'S AFFAIRS. 279 ah agricultural survey was, I believe, as far as my memory serves me, Colonel Muitro. something above twelve millions. When you took charge of this extensive district, what proportion of it was in cultivation ? — About two millions of acres, 1 believe ; but that twelve millions includes a great deal of land which never can be cultivated, rocks, jungle, &c. Did you find it necessary to lower the rate of assessment when you took charge of those districts ? — I found it necessary, in almost all instances, to lower the rent ; in others, where it was already low, to keep it at that low- rate for several years, to enable the country to recover from the ravages of war. Have the goodness to inform the Committee to what gross amount you lowered the rental in the first instance ? — The gross amount of the rental, I think, in the first instance, was lowered in different proportions from 15 to 20 per cent below what it had been the preceding year under the native government. Can you mention the gross sum of the whole ? — About one lack of pagodas was the amount of remission. During the period of your administration, to what extent were you enabled to raise it ? — I think that the revenue was raised from about eleven lacks of pagodas to seventeen and a half, or eighteen. Was that increase in consequence of waste lands, lands that had not been cultivated, being brought into cultivation ? — Part of it arose from raising the lands in cultivation to the usual rate of assessment under the Hindoo governments ; the rest arose from extended cultivation, amounting, as far as I can recollect, to about one million of acres: I speak from memory. Have the goodness to state what you understand by a village in India ?— A village in India does not apply to what is commonly called a village in this country, a collection of houses ; a village is a certain portion of country, generally from two to four square miles, the boundaries of which are un- alterable ; whatever cessions or transfers of country are made in the course of war from one power to another, the boundaries of the village remain permanent ; the ryot considers the village as his country, he does .not look to the province, or to the countrv at large, he considers the village as. the little 280 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel Munro. little republic in which he resides, and lives are very often lost in struggle* 1 -y.— — J among neighbouring villages for a quarter of an acre of land, which never has been cultivated, nor ever can be cultivated, merely to include it within the boundary of one or the other village. Is a shawl part of the dress of the Hindoos, which every Hindoo who is capable of purchasing it is desirous of possessing ?— Every Hindoo, who is capable of purchasing it, is desirous of possessing a shawl. Is a shawl esteemed a necessary part of the dress, both of men and women ? — It is not esteemed a necessary part, but it is a desirable part ; it is much more in use among men than among women ; the Hindoo women, seldom wear it ; it is more general among the Mahomedan women. Are the shawls in use in India made principally of wool ?— They are made entirely of wool, I believe. Do you know whether any quantity of shawls have been exported to India from Great Britain by the East-India Company ? — I do not know that the East-India Company have exported any quantity of shawls to the East-Indies ; but I imagine that whenever it is found that the European shawls are so cheap as to become an article in demand in India, that the Hindoo merchants will make it their business to have them ordered out from this country. Have you ever seen the shawls which are manufactured at Paisley, and at some other places in Great Britain ? — I have seen the Paisley shawls. What is your opinion of the quality of them, compared with the quality of the shawls in general use in India ? — I am not sufficiently a judge of the difference in shawls, but as far as I can form an opinion the resem- blance is very near to the eye but not to the feel ; they are hard and hairy, and they have the great defect of throwing off their wool by wearing. Have you seen any of the shawls which are manufactured at Norwich, which have been exported to India ?— I have not seen the Norwich shawls, at least have not known them to be such, I may have seen them without knowing that they were Norwich. In your opinion, is there any thing in the nature of the raw material, or in the natjare of the manufacture, which necessarily precludes the manu- facturers oi Great Britain from making shawls equal to those now imported . into EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIttS. -'81 into India r — I apprehend that there is a great obstacle to our rivalling the Colonel Munro. Indian shawls, from the superior quality of the raw article in India. < v ' Has it come within your knowledge that shawls, which have been ex- ported from Great Britain to India at the price of los. or '20s. each in England, have been sold in India tor as many rupees as they co^t shillings here ? — I have nGt heard that circumstance, but I should imagine that if they have been sold for twenty rupees in the first instance, the purchasers will not repeat the demand when they find that the shawl wears away so fast. Are not the Hindoos very desirous of obtaining shawls of very bright colours? — They are desirous of getting shawls of the colours which are most common in the shawls that come from Cashmire, and those are ge- nerally of a great variety of colours, from the brightest to the darkest. Do you think there is any difficulty in out sending our shawls of as fine Colours as they obtain in India from other parts of the world ? — I should think there can be no difficulty in the colours of this country rivalling those of India, but I doubt whether they are so durable, or would so well resist the weather. If shawls have not been sold in India at the profit implied in the ques- tion which has just been put, have you any doubt that they may be sold in India at a profit of 20 or 30 per cent, upon the first cost ? — If the shawls could be made so as not to part with their wool, I have no doubt that they would bring a profit in India. Do you happen to know what are the prices of shawls of India manu- facture, in India, the lowest and the highest ? — I have seen shawls in India, and at all prices, from ten rupees to a thousand ; and I myself from my own judgment could not determine whether a shawl was worth fifty rupees or one hundred and fifty, the difference appears so minute, that none but a judge can distinguish it. Can you form any judgment of the quantity of shawls which have been imported into India from Cashmire and Thibet, at any of the Presidencies ? — I cannot form any accurate judgment, but I should think that statements of them will be found in the India House, that they will be reported as an article of trade. Is not the consumption of shawls in India, in your opinion, exceedingly 2 O great f — 282 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel Munro. great ? — The consumption of shawls in India is very considerable ; but ! u ' the shawl is a thing that lasts so long, that it does not require a frequent renewal. How many years may a shawl be worn in general ? — 1 have used a shawl myself in India as a kind of blanket in cold weather upon my couch, and I found very little difference in it after having used it seven years. You have stated the objection to the shawls of English manufacture, that the wool is apt to separate ; do the shawls of India of the lowest quality, at ten rupees a piece, possess that quality ? — They do not possess that quality. Is the raw material of -which the India shawl is made, altogether sheep's- wool ? — I believe it is altogether sheep's woul. That there is no camel's hair or goat's about it : — No, I believe not. Have you seen the wool, of which the shawls are made, in its raw state ? —I never saw the wool in its raw state. The sheep that produce that wool are confined to Thibet and Cashmire, are they not ? — I believe they are confined to those countries. Is that wool of the same description as any European wool ? — I have not seen the article, so that I cannot exactly answer the question. Has any attempt been made to propagate the breed of those sheep in- India, within your knowledge ? — I do not know that any sheep have been brought from Thibet and Cashmire to India. o Or that any such sheep are to be found in any other part of the world ? — Or that such sheep are to be found in any other part of the world- Does not. the departure from the use of their own manufactures, in pre- ferring the shawls of Cahmire and Thibet, and other shawls imported, hold out some expectation that the population of India might be induced to use some other manufactures of this country, if found suitable to their taste ? — I have stated, I think, in a former part of my evidence, that the Hindoos have no predilection for their own manufactures, further than as they are superior to those of other countries ; and that whenever we can; furnish from this country a similar manufacture as good as their own, and a little EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 285 a little cheaper, they will prefer it to their own, and all the custom-house C&tettel VFw officers in India will not prevent them from using it. Have any shawls as yet been produced, of European manufacture, of equal quality or inferior price to those made in India » — I never have seen any such ; I never have seen an European shawl that I would use, even if it were given to me as a present. Are not shawls as much used for show as comfort ? — They are. Are not the natives who cannot afford to buy shawls, in the habit of buying silk, which they wear round their waists for the same purpose ? Many of the natives do. Do you not think that they would prefer the Norwich and Paisley shawls to those silk sashes ? — I am not so much master of the taste of the Indians as to determine which they would prefer. At present the distinction in the military services in India is between that of King's and Company's ; do you think that the separation of the European from the native branch of the Company's army would increase the distinction and jealousy which have prevailed between the King's and Company's officers, as the distinction would then be between an European and native establishment, as well as between the Company's and Kind's services ? — I am of opinion that such a separation would greatly tend to increase the jealousies and differences which have sometimes prevailed between the King's and Company's services ; the present distinction is only between the King's and Company's army ; the distinction then would be that between an European army and a native black army. The officers of the Company's service, by being excluded from the command of armies, seem to have been regarded as a kind of Indian Roman Catholics, and subjected to the disqualification without having undergone the cere- mony of conversion ; this disqualification, by the separation of the native from the European army, would be unavoidably extended, because, as the officers of the native army would sink in character, it would be the duty of government to exclude them, not only from the command of armies, but from the command of divisions and of stations, as they could fill them by officers of a higher character from the European branch. The officer of the Indian branch of the service, by exclusion from all those superior commands, trom the emoluments of which alone he could have the means of revisiting Europe, would be deprived of all hope of re- turning to his native country ; he would relinquish Europe, and consider 2 O 2 India 284 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel Monro. India as his home. A native army commanded by officers who have no v ' hope of ever returning to Europe, would be a most dangerous instrument for effecting the separation of our Indian possessions from the British empire. I do not speak of a Company's army, I think the case appli- cable to all armies under similar circumstances, and that had there never existed such a body as the East-India Company, had the European and native Indian armies always belonged to the Crown, yet had the Crown made a complete separation between the Indian and European bra eh of its army, the consequences would have been the same ; that Indian army would have become dangerous to the state. [The following question and answer were read over to the witness :] " Have the goodness to explain to the Committee what you ur.der- " stand by the ryotwar system ? — I shall state what I understand to " be the principle of the ryotwar system, the details will perhaps be " too extensive : the principle of the ryotwar system is, to fix an " assessment upon the whole land of the country, this assessment is " permanent; every ryot, who is likewise the cultivating proprietor " of the land which he holds, is permitted to hold that land at a " fixed assessment as long as he pleases ; he holds it for ever without " any additional assessment ; if he occupies any waste or additional " land, be pays the assessment which is fixed upon that land, and " no more, his rent undergoes no alteration." Is the Committee to understand, that with respect to permanency there is no difference between the ryotwar system and the Bengal permanent settlement ? — With respect to permanency, there is no difference between the two systems; but the ryotwar system leaves to government an in- creasing revenue arising from the waste, in proportion to its cultivation. My iaea of the ryotwar assessment also is this, that the assessment should be so moderate in peace, as, by enabling the ryot to become substantial, a war tax in times of necessity, of ten, fifteen, or twenty per cent, may be imposed by government, to be struck off when the necessity ceases to exist ; I have no doubt that such a war tax could be easily levied, and that it would in a great measure preclude the necessity of borrowing money at such periods at a high interest. Has any such war tax ever been imposed ? — Never under the Company's go eminent ; but under all native governments it is usual to raise the assessments of the ryots, and likewise to exact a kind of forced loan from all he mercantile classes. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 285 Are trie rules of inheritance of property applicable to the ryots, the Colonel Munrer. same as those applicable to zemindars." — The rule of inheritance among ' v the ryots, is the equal division of the property of the father among all his sons; every man has a son ; if he has none born to him, he adopts one ; and that I conceive to be. another cause which tends to prevent the accumulation of property in particular families. How many years, in general, is a Company's officer in India, before he obtains command of a company, and how long before he obtains the command of a regiment ? — That in a great measure depends upon the period of war or peace ; I myself was in India sixteen years as a subal- tern, twenty years before I was a major, and twenty-four before I was. lieutenant colonel, and I believe that is nearly the average : there are cases in which men acquire those ranks sooner, but many of them in which they are longer. Do the officers rise in the line, or do they rise in the regiment ? — Under the present regulations, the officers rise in the regiment to the rank ot major, from the rank of major they rise in the line. That is by a late regulation ? — The regulation of 1796. You speak from hearsay as to those parts of India which you have not visited ? — I certainly speak from hearsay to all parts of India, except those "which I myself have visited. Do you know the rate of interest generally paid by the ryots, for money borrowed for the purpose of paying their rents in seasons of scarcity, when the produce of their lands does not afford them the means of doing so ? — The ryots under the native governments very often paid two and three per cent, per month, that was for one or two months ; the account is generally settled within two, three, or four months, but even if it is not, he does nor continue to pay at that rate for the year. Among the Hin- doos themselves, according to the common law of the country, although the debt may be of ever so long standing, the amount of interest is never allowed to exceed the principal; the usual rate of interest among the substantial people themselves is about twelve per cent. There being no law against usury in India, are you not acquainted with instances of debts, both European and native, amounting sometimes to four or five times the principal I — There is a law against usury in the regulations 286 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Colonel Munyo. regulations of the government, no doubt, for no debt for interest above i y- / twelve per cent, can be recovered in a court of law. Do you allude to the courts of justice established by the British judi- cature, or to the native courts ? — I allude to the courts that now exist in all parts ot the Company's government on the Madras establishment and in Bengal. 'o' The British courts, or the courts of adawlut ?— There are courts esta- blished under the sanction of the Company's government, which extend jo all villages, and afford a protection to every ryot in India. Have not you heard of the payment of debts being resisted on the plea of usury, and that plea not being admitted in His Majesty's courts in India? — I have heard of no such suits. Have not you heard of interest being paid to native shroffs, or money- lenders, at the rate of twenty-five, thirty, and forty per cent, per annum ? — I have heard of money being paid at that rate of interest to many shroffs under all native governments, and even occasionally under the Company's government, but not since the establishment of the courts. Have not you heard of as high as twelve and eighteen per cent interest being paid to Europeans by natives for loans made to them, particularly in the Tanjore country, and in the Travancore country ? — I have a general recollection of Europeans having been concerned with natives in such transactions, but I do not know the particulars j in many cases, I believe, the European lost both principal and interest. Did he not in many other cases recover both ? — I believe that he has in some cases recovered both, but never with the sanction of government, that 1 know of: all officers found concerned in such transactions have generally been suspended the service. Do not the usual rales of interest vary throughout India, from six to twelve per cent. ? — I do not recollect ever having observed them among the natives lower than eight per cent. ; from eight to twelve. Do not you know that the interest allowed by the native shroffs, par- ticularly on the western side of India, is only six per cent. ? — I do not know the rate of interest allowed by the native shroffs on the western side xjf India; the rate ot interest in different districts, I believe, depends upon EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 287 upon the security^of the country, and its being liable to invasion, or Colonel Munro. otherwise. — v- Is not one of the evils that you apprehend, from the admission of Eu- ropeans into India not in the Company's service, that of usurious trans- actions with the natives ? — That is one of the evils I apprehend. Is not it more likely that the European trader will have occasion to bor- row than to lend money to the natives ? — If the European trader is in that predicament, I apprehend his trade will not be of much use to the country. The question is founded on the probability that the import trade from India to Great Britain will for a length of time greatly exceed the exports from this country, thereby increasing the demand for money in India for the purchase of returning cargoes, and consequently that it is not very probable the European merchants will have the means of making loans to the natives at an usurious interest ; you are therefore requested to give a direct answer to the question ? — Under such circumstances, it is very likely that the European trader will be the borrower. Upon what security will the European be able to borrow ? — I appre- hend he would have no other security than his cargo and character, and that of the house of agency with which he might be concerned. Will not the rate of interest depend upon the security ? — The rate of interest will depend on the security. Might not an European trader, not in the Company's service, be tempt- ed to convey capital to India, for the purpose of carrying on a speculation in usurious contracts or loans? — I think there is no doubt that the Euro- pean trader in such cases might be tempted, but the risk would be great; he could not recover in any court of law I am afraid I have not been able to give full answers to the questions put to me on such a variety of subjects ; I have felt myself incompetent to give the answers I would wish to have done to all kind of points, embracing the quiet habits of the European traders in India, the civil wars of the Bengal indigo planters, the oppressions ot the East-India Company, and, in short, to questions comprehending almost every subject, from the coarse blanket of the Hin- doo, to the feudal system : I have to thank the Committee for their in- dulgence, and to beg perdon for any omissions. The witness withdrew. GLOCESTER -!oS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GLOCESTER. WILSON, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : G'ocesterWihoa Jfr. jacksoif'. — You are one of the Commissioners of Customs ? — I am. Esq. \ i You were one of those commissioners who signed two reports to the Lords of the Treasury ? — I signed one of those repoits, dated on the 26th of December 1812. Considering the great extent of the trade and the rate of the duties, has ihe smuggling of teas or of East-India goods, upon the whole, taken place to any considerable extent, within the last five years, under the present sys- tem of conducting the East-India and China trade, looking to the great increase in the proportion of trade ? — I do not know whether, looking to the increase, there has been a proportional increase of smuggling ; we do not know ot smuggling, except by the seizures we have made ; there have been seizures, of which we have made a return. Is the proportion regarded by the commissioners as great in proportion to the quantities brought into legal consumption ? — I do not know that I am competent to say, not having considered it in that view of the subject ; I believe the value of the articles seized in the port of London has been about ,£10,000 a year, as far as I recollect ; these are questions to which we could return an accurate report, and to which I should be sorry to be considered as speaking positively, without examination. In the event of the import trade from India and the China seas being opened to the out-ports, would the dangers of smuggling be in your opinion increased, and in what degree? — Certainly it is the opinion of the Board, and the practical officers we consulted, that it would be increased. Is it not the opinion of the practical officers that it would be increased in a great and serious degree ? — That certainly would depend in a considerable degree upon the regulations that were made to counteract it ; the appre- hension certainly is that it would be increased, and considerably increased. Would not such danger be considerably greater still in times of peace ? — We certainly think so. Have the goodness to state to the Committee your reasons for thinking that the danger would be still greater in times of peace ? — Because of the ships coming single, and not coming in convoys ; because of there being fewer of the King's cruisers who would be likely to examine them ; and likewise, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 289 likewise, because they might loiter more in their way : there would not be GlocesterWilson the same necessity of their coming with convoys for the sake of their being Esq. guarded. ' " * ' Are not the commissioners already in the habit of enforcing every regu- lation which their judgment can devise for the security ot the revenue ? — Of course it is our duty to do so ; every thing that suggests itself we sub- mit to the higher powers, and we should continue to add to those regula- tions as far as any thing suggested itself to us. Can you name any port which would be equally safe for the revenue with that of London, for the importation of East-India and Chinese commodi- ties ? — I am not personally acquainted with many of the ports ; certainly ^ the general opinion of the Board is, that there is no port perfectly with the same security as there is in the port of London. Is it not the opinion of the practical officers and commissioners, that there is no port which is not comparatively very insecure compared with that of London ? — I am not competent to say how far it is the opinion of the commissioners in general, and I am not myself personally acquainted with many of the ports; there are many ports constructing docks, which are in an infant state at present, and we do not know to what extent they may be carried ; it is a question to which I am not, from my knowledge- of the ports, competent to speak. Can you state whether, according to the opinion of the commissioners or their practical officers, there is any port which at present is not very in- secure compared with that of London ? — I certainly am not prepared to state any port we look upon as so secure. If such import trade be permitted to any of the out-ports, meaning the import of Indian and Chinese articles, would the security of the revenue require that such ports should be limited, and in that cas^, which ports would you recommend such import trade to be limited? — The Board have reported, recommending a limitation certainly, and the limitation I think is to Liverpool, Bristol, and Hull. Have the goodness to state the grounds upon which those ports have been recommended in preference ? — I certainly do not feel myself com- petent to do that, beeause that may be recommended by each upon very different grounds ; the ground of my own opinion would be, their being ports of very large export and import, and therefore having a large esta- 2 P 390 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Glocc.q. petent to state what circumstances decided each member of the Board. S-_- T 1 In the opinion of the commissioners, each of those ports have, notwith- standing, been declared to be dangerous to the revenue, from their open and exposed situation ? — I do not think they have in the report, and I do not know to what else I am to speak. Be pleased to state your own opinion as to the safety ot those three ports, or the opinion of the commissioners, if you are enabled to state it ? -rl am not personally conversant with either of them ; I have been at Liverpool, but\erv long since ; I have been at Bristol, but before the docks were constructed. Do you know what the opinion of the commissioners is as to those three ports, whether they do or do not regard them, from their exposed situa- tion, as dangerous to the revenue ? — I do not fee! I can know the opinion of the commissioners eo tar that I could be entitled to say here that I know it ; I do not know that it has been the subject of particular conversation, nor do I know to what extent the question goes ; I recollect with respect to Liverpool, that it has been said there would be opportunities perhaps for the re landing of goods, from the vessels being wind-locked ; I could only answer to things I may have heard in conversation ; but I am not en- titled to speak the opinion of the Board, as having heard them say that either of those ports are particularly unsafe ; I do not suppose they are thought fit without, perhaps, some fresh buildings or improvements; the docks would require some completion before we should consider them equally secure to the port of London. Are not ports having wet docks, but without such docks being sur- rounded, with high walls, in the opinion of the commissioners and their practical officers, considered more dangerous to the revenue, than ports without wet docks ? — Referring to the opinions of the practical officers, upon which the report was founded, I certainly think a considerable ma- joiity of those practical officers hold them more dangerous. The wet docks in the port of London are surrounded by high walls ? — They are. Gan you name any other port, in which there are wet docks surrounded by high walls ? — I am not sure ; I think I have heard there was a wall completing EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR* 2< amongst the buyers, and from the quantity and value of the goods so of- fered, encouraging purchasers from the continent ; and do not the officers of the customs, as well as those of the excise, take an account of the real price which each lot fetches ? — Yes, certainly we look upon it as a very great security, at present, for estimating the full price and value of the article. Have not these circumstances been considered, hitherto, as accurate and effectual in ascertaining the bona fide amount of such sales ? — Certainly. Do you therefore impute this security of the revenue to the open and public mode of sale practised by the East-India Company in Leadenhall Street? — We certainly do; we think that the revenue is, in every respect, extremely conveniently collected by means of the Company ; that we have less difficulty in proportion than in the collection of other duties; we think it a very secure mode of the collection of the duties. Do you think that thereby the revenue is safely, as well as conveniently collected} — Certainly the revenue upon what comes to the warehouses of the Company. At present does not the whole of the imports from the East-Indies, and from China, in your opinion, come to the Company's warehouses ? — The whole, with the exception of what may be landed in the Channel il- licitly. Can such ad valorem duty be collected at the out-ports, without incur- ring the risk of a great defalcation of the revenue ? — In the opinion of the Board, it certainly, I believe, could not ; at least without very con- siderable regulations; there would be very great difficulty in it, in the first instance. Has not that difficulty hitherto appeared to them, as far as they have considered it, almost to amount to impracticability ? — We have reported, I think, that we know of no present means in which it could be so effec tually collected. Do you think it easily practicable, if possible, to commute such ad va- lorem duties for rative duties on East-India and Chinese articles r— Not without entirely, perhaps, altering the nature of the trade, because it pro- bably EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 293 V>ably would throw all the smaller priced articles out or being imported, GloceslerWilson if they were to pay the same duty. Ksq * -v • If it were practicable to commute the ad valorem for rative duties, would not such an alteration, in the opinion of the commissioners, he highly dangerous to the revenue ? — We have reported, I think, that it would endanger a defalcation of the revenue. Supposing a free trade to all His Majesty's subjects, from every port i;> the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, Canton excepted, what additional establishment would be ne- cessary to guard the revenue ; can you state the nature of such establish- ments, and where they should be fixed ? — It certainlv would not be in my power to state here what kind of arrangement it would be necessary to make in that case ; it would be our duty to consider maturely what arrangements should take place when the thing might be decided upon. It is wholly out ot my power to say now where I should propose to place the additional guard, or what additional guard it would be necessary to place : it would depend entirely upon what the nature of the alterations were. Supposing the trade to be opened to His Majesty's subjects, with a Tight to export from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, and to import into all such out-ports as may make themselves sufficiently secure, would not, in the nature of things, that require numerous additional establishments, and must not they be of a very expensive nature ? — Any answer I could give must be considerably conjectural on my part: I should think it might lead to expensive establishments ; but, unless one were entering upon the thing, knowing it were to take place, and to what extent it were likely to go, one can form no accurate idea. If it were to take place, we should consider what guard it might be necessary to add,, in consequence: we have a guard ro tnd the cwast, which would not be adequate, I con- ceive ; but it would then be a material question to know what addition it would be worth while to make ; and I cannot say off-hand from myself, whether an immense extension of that establishment would be necessary j I tuppose some would be necessary, indisputably. Is not the amount of customs payable on East-India and Chinese arti- cles, paid to the public by the East-India Company, according to the present system, with comparatively small expense, trouble, or risk in the collection ? — I certainly think it is. Can '29 i MJWUTE3 OF EVIDENCE ON THE OlocesferWilson Can \ou say about the annual amount of customs paid by the East-India Esq. Company in the manner described ? — I should like upon all tbe&e, subjects \ ^J i to be allowed to refer *o returns we can make more accurately. My idea is, that the custom duties alone are about six hundred thousand pounds ; thev amount togethei to between three and four millions, but the princi- pal are excise duties. I think our receipt from the East-India Company, is hardly above seven hundred thousand pounds a year. Supp sing such to be their extent, are they upon the whole collected with that facility which you have described ? — I think they are. Supposing the trade from India to be opened in the manner described, with the right of imparting into the out-ports all East-India and all Chi- nese articles, with the exception of tea, do you think that the danger to the revenue would still be great and material, notwithstanding such ex- ception ? — I think it would ; that the danger would be great. ' # Would the exception of the article of tea make any material difference as to the great difficulty or degree ot impracticability which, you have described, of substituting rative tor ad valorem duties? — it certainly would make no great difference ; it would make a difference of the duties on tea, but I think the duties on tea would be Ieis concerned than the duties on other articles, because I should think tea would be more likely to find its true value in every part of the country, than other articles of East-India produce. If an attempt were to be made to effect such substitution of rative for ad valorem duties, in what manner would you proceed with respect to the rating of articles now paying thejr'duty ad valorem ? — It was suggested by the B >ard, that the only way would be to average the sale prices, but that is a question which would be much better decided by the practical of- ficers. If such substitution were attempted by way of average, according to the sale prices at different periods, w. mid not articles ot the higher qualities and prices be admitted, by such operation, at duties very inferior to those at present raised upon them, and would, not the inferior a; tides of the. same sort be loaded with a duty which' they cou'd not sustain ? — That must entirely d.pcnd upon the rate, because, of course, if the rate of the highest was taken, though that might be absurd, it would secure the revenue, but if an average of the present prices was taken, it would be attended with the effect the question supposes. Have EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 295 Have not the commissioners expressed their apprehension that such in- GloceslerWihon convenience and such inequality would be the consequence of such an Esq. attempt ? — Certainly they have. * v ' Would such circumstance be likely greatly to reduce the importation of such inftri r articles, and in some instances, almost to check it entirely, in your opinion ? — I should think, certainly it would. Supposing the amount of trade and the number of ships from the East- Indies to be the same as at present, would there be more or less danger of smuggling, if the trade was confined to the port of London, or if it were distributed between the port of London and the out-ports ? — We have reported that we think there would be more danger. Supposing the amount of trade and ships to remain stationary ?— Yes. Supposing that, in consequence of a free trade, such amount and such number of ships were to be increased, is it your opinion that smuggling would be increased only in the sao very 296 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GlocesterWihon very various, and some of them great objects to bring into this country, Esq. and some probably not much so. -v— Can you say whether it is the opinion of the commissioners, and whether they have not expressed such an apprehension, that a greater part of the increased smuggling would consist of articles at present prohibited by law for the protection of the British manufacturer ? — I think that applies rather to allowing the export than to allowing the import trade to be opened : the Board have expressed some opinion upon that subject. Supposing the same amount of East-India and Chinese articles as is now imported by the East-India Company in large ships, to be imported by a great number of adventurers in ships as small as 350 tons burthen, would that make any material difference as to the safety of the revenue ? — In our opinion it would. The opinion of the practical officers I think was, that out of port it was of the highest importance that the ships should be of considerable tonnage ; but there are officers who say, that when they are once in port, smaller ships are easier guarded than the large ones. When at sea, it is of importance that the ships should be of large tonnage and great draught of water, so as not to hover near the coast. Assuming the following passage to form a part of the commissioners' report, namely, " Hitherto under the matters referred, our attention has been principally directed to the danger to the revenue, touching the East- India trade, which would arise from illicit proceeding in the course of im- portation ; another, an important view, in which we think it behoves us to regard the subject as connected with a different but material species of risk to the revenue, presents itself; we allude to the fraudulent re-landing and introduction into the kingdom, of East-India articles entered and shipped for exportation ;" do you think the danger alluded to in that pas- sage would be greatly increased, by allowing such exports from the out- ports and such import to them as has been stated ? — Certainly the Board is of that opinion. Is the Committee to understand it to be an opinion in which you con- cur ? — It is. Do you think that such free trade as there described, might lead to any material frauds with respect to drawbacks ? — In the same way that it may to the re-landing of prohibited goods. In your opinion, would the danger of the one be as considerable as you apprehend it to be with respect to the other? — They are extremely alike in EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 297 in their nature; there may be more difficulty, I should think, in recovering GlocesterWilson the drawback fraudulently than in re-landing the article; but the danger Esq. would be on the same principle, the one would have to re-land the article, v ^ > the other would have to impose upon the officers. Do you apprehend that the danger to the revenue would be more or less, according to the number of ports that should be allowed this licence of exporting and importing to and from the East-Indies and the Chinese Seas? — No doubt, in proportion to the number, and in proportion to the nature of the port. Can you state, whether any such regulations have yet been devised or suggested, as, in your opinion or the opinion of the Commissioners, would effectually guard against such dangers as you have described throughout your evidence ? — I certainly feel myself incompetent at once to answer that question : if the question goes to this extent, whether we could un- dertake to prevent smuggling altogether, to adopt any measures so as entirely to prevent smuggling, we cannot in the present situation of the trade undertake wholly to prevent those consequences: supposing there was an extension, we have said it would be attended with as great diffi- culty to do this then, to collect the revenue as accurately as we do now; no doubt it would be attended with considerable difficulty. Have any such regulations yet been devised or suggested, as to amount to efficiency in the minds of the Commissioners ? — We think not ; we have said it would be attended, as we think, with risk to the revenue. (Examined by the Commit lee.) Do you not think that the duties on the import into the ports of Liverpool, Bristol, and Hull, are as correctly collected as they are in the port of Lon- don? — I certainly am not competent to speak to that; my own opinion would be perhaps to the full extent; but it is a question upon which I can- not speak with any decision. At different times we find the collection less accurate than we had supposed it to be. The ports are varying in that respect very much ; at one time we mav think the collection very accurately carried on in a port; at other times we m;tv have reason to doubt it: a we were aware of any port in which we thought they were inaccurately collected, we should have an investigation of the officers, but we must suppose the duties are accurately collected at a port, if the officers are not under charge. 2 Q Were '298 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GbtfSferJFHson Were not the merchants of Bristol and Liverpool very much and niost Esq. principally employed in the West-India and North American trade, when 5 v- ' that trade was open ? — Yes. In point of size, weight and value of the articles generally imported in those trades, into those ports, is the facility and temptation to smusrelirie those articles equal to that ot smuggling from ships importing into those ports from the East- Indies prohibited articles, or articles entcrable on high duties only ? — I certainly do not feel myself fully competent to an- swer those questions, not at all immediately coming before us; I should think they are not; but I am not sufficiently a practical officer to speak practically to it. I should think the West-India articles, in general, are articles ot more difficult smuggling than the East-India articles ; but the variety is so great, it is impossible tor me to say. In general, the articles of the East India trade are much higher in their duties, and more liable to smuggling. The articles imported from the West Indies are hogsheads of sugar, rum puncheons, and large packages; would the facility of smuggling them., or the temptation, beat all proportioned to smuggling piece-goods, which can go into a very small compass, and are of a very great value, and many of them prohibited r — Decidedly not : I should have no doubt, in the first instance, in answering as my opinion, that there was not the same danger of smuggling in the trades alluded to, that there would be in the East India trade. It follows, in your opinion, that although the duties payable on those trades that are principally carried on at Bristol and Liverpool, maybe very regularly and correctly paid, yet that it East-India articles of great value, and going into a small compass, might be imported there, it does not follow that the duties would be so correctly collected as they are now, where only articles of large size and much inferior value are imported?— With respect to the collection of the duty, we should make some difference between that and the charge of smuggling ; the collection of the duty we consider as depending very much upon the principal officers, the charge of duty, we hope, would be equally well conducted by the officers; but we think the risk of smuggling would be considerably increased, and upon those grounds I have stated. May there not be a greater risk of smuggling in those articles if im- ported into those ports, although the duties are regularly paid upon the larger articles ? — We have said that the danger of smuggling would be greatly EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 293 greatly increased upon those grounds, that these articles give a greater fa- Gloccstcrl cility for smuggling, and that the risk would be considerably increased. Esq- Would the danger of re-landing articles that are wanted only for expor- tation, be increased by opening the export trade to India, to out-ports, from whence the trade is obliged to pass down a great length of river, and a considerable tract of coast ? — Certainly: we require certificates ot the due exportation of those articles; as far as those certificates could be enforced and could be of avail, it would be a security in any case ; but it would be impossible for us to say that we consider that an absolute se- curity; we know it is not, and that the danger must be increased from any length of river, and still more, if it was likely the vessels might be detained by wind or tide in that river. Can you form an opinion, whether small ships of 350 or 400 tons, ex- porting trom the out-ports, under the circumstances stated, would not be more exposed to re-landing either prohibited good?, or goods upon which a drawback had been claimed, than the Company's ships now carrying on the trade by the river Thames? — That is a question upon which the practi- cal officers could give a more decided opinion ; as far as the small vessels could come near the shore and be run ashore, they would have facilities ; but there are, perhaps, circumstances which would increase the facility ot smuggling from the larger vessels, or which might make the facilities greater in the larger vessels; generally speaking, however, I think that the danger would be much greater from the smaller vessels. Is it not the practice of the superior officer in every outport, as well as in London, to take bonds, under considerable penalties, from the mer- chants who export goods from England, on which a drawback is received, that those goods shall be actually carried to the place of their destination ? — Indisputably it is; at the same time we cannot be otherwise than aware, that in spite of those restrictions and regulations, there is consi-. derable smuggling and re-landing upon the drawbacks: one great im- provement of the warehousing system is, that it has altered the system Oi drawbacks, which we had found, from time to time, to be a source of very great fraud upon the revenue, in spite of any precaution we could take to the contrary: still we do take bonds on all occasions, and if they could be effectually put in force, all danger would be obviated. Are not two sureties required, in addition to the exporting merchant, for the performance of the condition ? — Certainly : the danger, I appre- hend, does not arise from the failure of the sureties or the principal, but, 2 Q. 2 from "V ~v" SOO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GloeesterU'ihon from false documents being produced, and the goods being re-landed Esq. •without our being aware of it. Do not the officers of the Customs remain on board those vessels, and watch them to certain points, when they are about to sail horn the ports in which they are ? — They do. Is it not a practice of the officers of the Customs to require, in addition to the security mentioned, certificates from persons in public situations abroad, at the ports to which those goods are carried, that those goods have been landed there ? — Certainly, where there are such officers, and that is supplied, if there are not consuls or Custom-House officers, in dif- ferent ways : there should be certificates, and certificates are produced ; we sometimes take a reason why they cannot bring a certificate. Did not the Commissioners of the Customs send down certain queries to the principal officers of all the out-ports, relative to the opening of the trade to India, and require answers from those officers ? — They did. Do you recollect the answer which was received from the principal officer in the port of Hull, upon that subject? — I have read the answers of all the officers, but I can hardly say, at once, that I re-sonally recollect the answer of every particular officer. Do you recollect what was said in the answer from the collector or comptroller in the port of Hull, upon the subject of the danger of smug- gling, in case Hull should be allowed to participate in the East-India fr&de ? — I do not; I could not state it at once ; if I had been at all aware,. I would have had the answer here. Do vou recollect that there is any thing in that answer relative to the situation of the docks and warehouses at Hull? — I do not recollect any- thing on the subject. Do you happen to know that the docks at Hull are made in the ancient: town ditches, without the walls, and without the ancient fortifications of the town, and not in the interior of the town ? — I am not personally ac- quainted with Hull. Do you recollect that any assurance has been given by the Dock Com- pany at Hull, to the Commissioners of the Customs, or to the Lords of the Treasury, that a dock at Hull should be walled round, that ware- houses EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 301 houses should be built adjoining to the dock, and that every other con- GlocesterWilson venience for carrying on the trade to the East-Indies should be made in the Esq. port of Hull, which the Commissioners, or the Lords of Treasury, might v require f — I know that that has been offered in more places than Hull. Is it not your opinion, as a Commissioner of the Customs, that the collectors and superior officers at the out-port?; and particularly at Liver- pool, and Bristol, and Hull, are better able to give an opinion with regard to the danger of smuggling rn those ports, than any other officers in Lon- don, or elsewhere, in his Majesty's service ? — Certainly, with respect to the danger of smuggling within the port itself, not at all with respect to the general effect of bringing the trade round the coast. Did not a Commissioner, in the course of the last year, visit several of the out-ports with a view to give an opinion how far accommodations might be made for extending the trade of India to the out-ports ? — Mr. Frewin went on a special embassy, but I am not acquainted with what his instructions were ; I was not aware that that was the object of hi* journey. You have spoken of the risk of re-landing goods in passing down the rivers from the out-ports; do you not think there is at least equal danger of such fraudulent transactions taking place in the passage down the Thames, as in the Mersey, the Severn, or the Humber r — I should think, at present, we have rather a superior guard in the Thames. Are not you of opinion that there are more men in the habits of smuggling in the river Thames than there are in those other rivers, so as at least to countervail the superiority of the guard you have mentioned ? — I certainly think that at present that is very considerably owing to the greater quantity of articles liable to smuggling which come up the Thames : While the whole of the East-India trade comes up the Thames, the smuggling of East-India articles will be confined to the Thames; bufe it at times in the Bristol Channel there has been less smuggling, that has perhaps been because there were no considerable articles brought up that Channel liable to smuggling; when smuggling was chiefly confined to French articles, it was of course upon the southern coast principally. Do not you know that vessels sailing from some of the out ports proceed more commonly to sea without stopping at out-ports, than those vessels* sailing from London ?->— I should think the India ships now lie in the Downs sometimes, otherwise that they pass on from the port of London- °02 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON 'THE GlocesterWilson as rapidly ; I do not know where vessels should loiter very much in their Esq passsage frcm the river. Do not you know that vessels are discharged with much greater rapidity .at the out-ports than in the docks in London ? — I do not mean to doubc the fact, but I do not know sufficiently or my own personal knowledge to speak to it. Are not you of opinion that the various ports and places in the English Channel, from the Land's End to the port of London, afford much greater facility for smuggling to vessels passing up that Channel from India, than the navigation of Saint George's Channel to Liverpool and Glasgow, or Saint George's and the Bristol Channel to the port of Bristol ? — I cer- tainly am not very competent to give an opinion upon that subject ; there may be more facility of smuggling; if we had had an opportunity of trying the experiment, we should have been prepared more fullv to speak to it, but I am not prepared at present to say that there is much more facility. Do not the particular means and arrangements adopted for smuggling in the river Thames, and for concealment after the goods have left the vessel, afford facilities for smuggling in the river Thames, which are not possessed in the other ports that have been mentioned, Bristol, Hull, and Liverpool ? — Those are conveniences not communicated to me, even in this port; but I should certainly conceive the same ingenuity would equally suggest them in any other place ; at present, I have no doubt that there is more ingenuity, where there is a greater field tor smuggling ; but supposing the trade transferred equally to the other ports, the same inge- nuity would be applied. Does not the ease and readiness with which those goods are disposed of in London, afford a considerable inducement to smugglers that could not exist in less wealthy and populous districts? — I certainly think so; but whenever a district should become very commercial, there would be a proportionable facility of getting rid of the articles; most, however, in the principal towns. Is not a ship and cargo liable to confiscation in consequence of having on board any goods in addition to what are contained in the manifest ? — I am not perfectly able to speak to that ; I think, certainly not ; but one thing we have proposed is, enforcing the manifest act with more rigour : I am not perfectly aware to what extent we have proposed making the vessels subject to confiscation, provided articles were found manifested even- before EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 303 before the report ; I believe that the penalties attach rather upon the Glocesterli'ilsot reporting -than upon a deficiency or an error in the manifest before the- E^q. report: It is wished by the Board, I believe, to extend that so, that it, prior to the report, the ship is found with articles that are not manifested, they should be liable to seizure, and the same penalties attach : there is no forfeiture of the vessel for goods not manifested before the report, and there would be a question arise as to East- India vessels, respecting pas- sengers baggage and presents; I believe there is a laxness at present as to these, and it is wished that the manifest could be much more rigidly enforced than it is with respect to them ; but that might be attended with some difficulties, and be supposed vexatious to passengers. Has it appeared to come within your knowledge that there has been' an action at law in the Court of Exchequer in Scotland, in consequence of a vessel arriving at Greenock with ten hogsheads of sugar, taken in at< Saint Kitts during the illness of the captain, not mentioned in the mani- fest, reported instantly by his owner previous to the arrival or the ship, and every necessary means taken to acquaint the officers of Customs with the accidental shipment of those ten hogsheads of sugar ; and are you aware that, in that trial, it was shewn that a vessel was put under seizure for having picked up a log of mahogany at sea, and which therefore could net be mentioned in her manifest ? — Tne whole of the circumstance is not perfectly new to me, but I cannot speak to the particulars of the case ; I have heard a part of the matter before, but it does not come within our province* Do you think that the smuggling of rum from West-India vessels in the out -ports is at all considerable? — I cannot tell the extent; I should perhaps be in some degree inaccurate in stating the extent, I have no doubt it exists. Your means of knowledge of the extent of smuggling, will probably depend upon the amount of seizures made at the different ports ? — Yes, it would entirely. Are you aware of any considerable seizures of rum from West-India vessels, taking rum as an article easily disposed of, and paying very con- siderable duty r — We have flattered ourselves that there has been less smuggling, and less seizures, of spirits lately. Among the spirits, rum is always one of the articles seized, and that rum comes from West-India ships ; but I do not know at all the immediate extent of the rum seized in the out-ports, compared to the other quantities of spirits seized; there has 30 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GlocesterWilson has been considerably less seizures of spirits, and we flatter ourselves there Esq. has been much less smuggling of them lately than in former years. « < ' From the amount of seizures, and other means of information which you possess, do you think that the smuggling of West-India and other articles, in the out-ports, is more considerable in proportion to the com- merce carried on, than in the port of London, or as much ? — I should say (speaking here certainly without full information) that before the esta- blishment of the West-India docks, some of the out-ports had very much a preference ; the merchants preferred importing to the out-ports, to importing West-India produce to London : I should suppose, since the West-India docks, London may stand as high as the out-ports, but I cannot say, as I ought to do upon sufficient information, which is the &afest ; at the present moment, there is a vast difference between different outports. In the event of the trade being opened to the East-Indies and to China, and carried on in ships of 350 tons, and under regulations such as are con- templated in the report of the Commissioners of the Customs, as additional to the present Manifest Act, do you conceive that any owner of a ship of that burthen and value would, with a view to his own interest only, carry on any smuggling trade, or suffer any smuggling trade to be carried on with his knowledge, on board such ship ? — I should suppose not, but I cannot undertake to say that that would never be done ; we know that risk is run ; there are a variety of risks run, that nobody would calculate upon beforehand, but they are run ; we know that there is smuggling, and should expect that there would be smuggling in those vessels. If that ship and cargo were, by the provisions and regulations contem- plated, made liable to seizure and confiscation, do not you think it would be an effectual prevention to that smuggling ? — In my opinion, certainly not; there is always this difficulty, if the penalty is extremely severe, that leads to a relaxation of its enforcement ; if the penalty is not extremely severe, it has no effect. With respect to the penalties upon the Manifest Act, that would apply, if they were increased to any extent ; a case made out would lead to its being constantly relaxed either by us or the higher power. There is a limit to what you can effect by penalty, because of its leading to relaxation. With a view to advantages and profitable smuggling, would not a person disposed to carry on that operation prefer to employ a neutral ship, which is not liable to the regulations of this country till •within a certain distance EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 305 distance from the shore, is of less value, and may, without an alteration GloccJerJi ilson of the present law with respect to commerce with India and China, visit Esq. those countries, particularly the former, without any controul from this v v — — I country, rather than employ a British vessel of great value, liable to all the provisions of the Manifest Act, and to such additional regulations as maybe adopted in this country aswellasin the East r — Thatisa question to which I cannot answer; k would be a matter of speculation for each individual, and would depend upon this question, If he was to freight a vessel entirely for smuggling, he might prefer that mode, though he would be aware, perhaps, that the foreign ships would pass through a stricter examination here, and therefore be less capable of evading the duties; but if he is shipping another cargo, and it is not entirely a smug- gling voyage, the convenience of having his vessel on the spot would induce him to put some illicit articles on board, rather than freight another vessel with such articles- You have said, that some danger might arise from the re-landing of prohibited goods, and goods upon which a considerable drawback is allowed at the out-ports ; may not East-India goods be transported by bond from London to the out-ports ? — I believe none by coasting voyage; but upon all these questions, if they are of importance, I should wish there should be an accurate report made : formerly the articles for export to the coast of Africa could be conveyed by inland carriage, and there were some kinds of piece-goods that were not prohibited, but certainly none, but those for exportation to the coast of Africa, and those under particular circumstances, by land carriage, under seals of office and par- v ticular restrictions. Are you aware that many goods, paying a very heavy duty, may be transported from one bonded port in the kingdom to another bonded port, for the purpose of exportation ; and that, in point of fact, large quantities of German linens and other goods, upon which there is a prohibitory duty, may be transported from the pert of London to the port of Liverpool, for exportation ? — Yes. Then the danger which you suppose possible to arise from re-landing goods liable to a very large duty, on admission to the consumption of this country, does in point of fact at present exist without any material loss or inconvenience arising to the public revenue? — I am net at all com- petent to say to what extent it exists in the way alluded to : I know we do suffer removals under very particular circumstances, but I am not at all aware to what extent, and* perhaps upon the mention of any particular 2 R article 306 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GloceslerWilson article we should know that it was not attended with the same danger as Esq. in th jse small articles. a- ~V" Are not German linens liable to a very heavy duty, and also allowed to be transported ? — I think so. Are you aware of any considerable seizures of German linens, or goods upon which a drawback has been allowed, having been made in the out- ports, in consequence ot re-landing ? — I think there are always seizures at the out-porls of rs-landed articles; I am not at all aware of the extent of any particular seizures. When you say that the danger of smuggling would be greater, if the trade were distributed between London and the out-ports, than if it con- tinued to be confined to the port of London, is it upon the supposition that the out-ports may be more fitted for the trade than they are at pre- sent r — Our first idea, that the danger would be increased, is certainly independent of any idea how far they might be made competent ; for it is owing to the much greater extent of coast that we should be obliged to guard with the same vigilance: if the trade might go all round the country, there would be a guard necessary upon every part of the coast, as that would give opportunities of choice to the smuggler what point he should select ; our first general idea is, that we should have a much larger extent of coast to guard; and referring to our present regulations of meeting Indiamen, we should have no particular spot to meet them at : if the whole trade was expected to come up the Channel, so that we could easily meet them, that would remove so far some of our difficulty, we could meet the fleets while they came in fleets, at least. You have said, that you consider London as the fittest port for the col- lection of the revenue ? — Yes. Do not you believe that regulations might be devised, which would materially improve, with reference to the India and China trade, the three ports which have been named in the report of the Board? — I cer- tainly think that walled docks would, in our opinion, so far diminish part of the difficulty ; it would not meet the whole of our objection, it would meet one considerable part of it. Llave the seizures which have been made of East-India and Chinese commodities, in the port of London, been generally from the Company's ships, or private ships ? — In the returns we have made of seizures, we have EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 307 have stated the ship from which each seizure has been made ; I have GlocetferJlllson not abstracted whether the principal pait are from Company's or private ''sq ships. v y ; Are you aware that a very considerable inducement to smuggle tea at present exists, and has long existed, in consequence of the low price of that article in America and other countries trom whieh we aie daily receiving vessels ? — Upon the Commutation Act there was an amazing red ction of the duty on tea ; since that, there has been so great an ad- dition to it, that there must be a great induce nent to smuggle tea ; but I do not think rea has been lately an article so much smuggled as might be expected from the amount of the duty. In point of fact, the smuggling of tea, which may be considered as the easiest article to smuggle, has not been carried on, in your opinion, to any great extent from America and other foreign parts ? — I have not accurately compared the quantity of tea which is inserted in the reports; but my impression is, that tea has not been smuggled of late in the pro- . portion which might be expected from the high duties ; I should think tea not the easiest article to smuggle, and that it would not but for the very high rate of duty ; but I know it is considered as an article very liable to smuggling; it is brought in small packages sometimes, but it is not an article that goes in a very small compass for a very large value. Are you aware of the smuggling of any other East-India or Chinese article, to any extent, from foreign vessels? — Not in the port of London : I have not accurately compared the articles smuggled ; if I was asked to any particular article, I could speak more fully to it : Bandana handker- chiefs, and perhaps silk, and all kinds of presents, are much more in the habit of being smuggled ; but as for the comparative quantity of each, I cannot speak to it : nankeen and fans, and pearls, and a vast variety of other articles, I should think much more liable to smuggling:. You have stated some difficulty in regard to the ascertaining the ad valo- rem duties ; taking out tea and piece-goods from the ad valorem duties, are you aware of the amount of those ad valorem duties, and whether, in point of value, it is of any great importance? — I am not at all aware what the value, subtracting those articles, is : tea is a very considerable article, but there is a considerable value of other goods. Do you suppose that it exceeds fifty or sixty thousand pounds, sub- 2 R 2 trading —v~ 308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GloceslerWilson tracting those articles? — I should wish, upon subjects of that kind, to Esq. J'efer to accurate reports from the Board. Are there any errors in the report of the Commissioners as printed, which vou can point out and rectify ? — There are one or two in the article of tea ; there is a very material one in page 100; the whole article of tea would seem to have produced warehousing duties only, and no home consumption duties; which should all have been home consumption duties, and not under the article of warehousing. Has any other mode of levying the duties on those articles, on which an nd valorem duty is now taken, been submitted to your consideration ? — The having a rative duty upon those articles which now pay an ad va- lorem duty, has been considered by the Board, and it was suggested that the sale prices might be averaged ; but it has been observed by the Board, that that would be attended with considerable difficulty ; that is all I know as to any difference in the mode of charging. Are you aware of the alterations, which within these few years have been introduced into some of the out ports, by storehouses for bonding, with the legal wharfs and other means for insuring the due receipt of the revenue ? — I am aware that there have been very considerable accom- modations made. Suppose an Indiaman to be coming home and bound to any port to the westward which may be allowed to be a receiving port, would there not be less facility to the smuggler, and of course more protection to the revenue, if the ship bound from the East-Indies, was to come directly into the port of Plymouth, and there deliver her cargo, having legal wharfs on which they should be landed, and secure storehouses in which the cargo might be put ? — The Board have, at times, thought that a port at the mouth of the Channel would have some advantages; if the East- Jndia Company's emporium had been at the mouth of the Channel, it would have saved us part of the guard of the river, but it would be attended with the inconvenience of being so far from London. Do you apprehend that much smuggling takes place between the Lizard and the Thames"" — Yes, certainly there did formerly, but we apprehend we have obviated part of that, by meeting the East-India ships much farther down than we did ; we meet them in the Downs, and sometimes as far as Portsmouth. Do EA.ST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 309 Do you apprehend that a ship anchoring before she comes to her port of GloccsterWilson delivery subjects the revenue to great risk? — Certainly; and we forbid Esq. ships, unless from necessary accident, putting into Portsmouth ; there *—- — -v 1 must be proof of a necessity, or we do not permit it. Would not that risk be entirely done awav if a ship came with convoy direct from the East-Indies to the port of Plymouth: — Certain!)', I think it wouid. Can you say to this Committee, that you think the customs would not be better received by the country, if the ship sailed under convoy from the East-Indies direct to Plymouth, having before stated that the ports of Liverpool, Plymouth, and some others, are now in a state to receive goods for bonding ? — I do not understand myself to have said that I think those ports in a decidedly fit state ; I am not competent to say whether they are or not ; but if the whole trade of the East-Indies was confined to the port of Plymouth rather than London, there would be a great advantage in the prevention of all smuggling during the passage from the western coast to London, but that would be the whole ; it wouid then require regulations in the port of Plymouth. If the duties upon the whole would be received better if the ships were ordered to Plymouth, does it not follow that a part might be received with equal safety ? — It would follow that a part might be received perhaps with equal safety, so far as the advantage I have referred to was gained by its being received there ; but it opens two places, and it creates a necessity of guarding both places; it opens the difficulty to us of the trade being carried to two places, instead of being confined to one place which we could watch with more accuracy. Do you consider with respect to a ship sailing during the war under convoy, and coming direct to the port of Plymouth as a bonding port, there being there legal quays, that there would be any risk, compared to the risk of going up Channel, touching at Portsmouth and in the Downs, and at various places where excuses might be made ; taking into consideration the number of cutters occasionally employed to board India- men, do not you think that a ship coming to the port of Plymouth would secure the revenue better than coming to London ?— It would secure a ship going to Plymouth from that part of the danger certainly, but it would be meTely from that individual danger. You have stated, that in your opinion the port of London is more convenient 310 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GloceclerWilson convenient and secure than any of the out-ports, for the collection of the Esq. revenue ; have the goodness to inform the Committee what your reasons < v > are for that opinion, both with reference to the port itself, and the Custom-House establishment there ? — The only reason that I have given, not expressing a decided opinion, is, that it is more particularly under the supervision of ourselves, and we have the largest establishment of officers there, and that the docks ot all species are carried to the highest point of perfection, and that the Channel is particularly guarded wish revenue cut- ters and likewise at present witli King's ships ; so that though it comes through a considerable line of Channel, there is a considerable guard upon the passage through that Channel. Supposing the trade to be opened to Liverpool, Bristol, and Mull, what additional guard would be required to put them upon the same tooting as the port of London now is, with respect to security ? — It would be impos- sible for me to answer that at once ; it would be a point of very consider- able consideration tor the Board, as to what guard, and how far we should carry into effect the same regulations; and it would be a question whether we could meet the vessels coming into port, with a variety of other ques- tions that would arise. What difference do you think it would make, if, instead of coming in fleets, of the probable arrival of which notice is given at the Custom- House, single vessels were in the habit of coming from India, and going to the different out-ports, such as Liverpool, Bristol, and Huli?— We think considerable. Are you prepared to state whether the Commissioners of the Customs can suggest any regulations, not of the most expensive nature, to counteract the evils which wouid thence arise ? — We are not prepared to state how they could be counteracted effectually, we have stated that we should find difficulties in counteracting them. The second report is not signed by Mr. Frewin ? — It is not. Had he left the Board previous to the signing of the second report r — No, he had not ; he can hardly be said to have left it yet, for his successor has not been appointed. Was he consulted by those who have signed their names to it ? — I hardly know how io answer that question : he was summoned to attend; I have no doubt that it met with his concurrence ; but he was not in the habit at that EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. SH that time, being engaged on special duties, of attending the Board. It GlocesterWilsoH was only by accident that he was present when the first report was signed ; Esq. he had been absent on special duty almost the whole time. Our other ' v > Chairman had desired him to attend two or three weeks in the course of the summer, while he was called away on other duties, and Mr. Frewin was, in consequence, in attendance upon the first report being signed ; he was informed of the second report, and summoned to have attended, if he had chosen to attend ; but there being a tull Board without him, he did not attend during the second report ; I have, however, no reason to think but that it met his concurrence. He was not actually consulted upon that second report? — It was referred to the Board of which he was a member, of which he could not be ignorant; he knew of its being made, and he may be said to have been consulted, as we were all consulted : it has happened to myself not to be present at most of the discussions upon this subject ; I returned to town at the time when that report was nearly finished, and I signed it ; but I was not present at the discussions which took place ; I read all the reports of the officers. Is not this report made in consequence of having taken into considera- tion various reports from the different officers of the Customs at the out- ports? — Decidedly so. Who made the selection of those reports which is the ground of the present report signed the 12th of December ? — There was no selection of those reports, all those reports were read to the Board, and the Board -in consequence reported upon them; there certainly will be members of the Board who will take a leading part. The Secretary attended at whatever discussions were carried on at the Board ? — I should certainly think so ; there are times when the Secretary is out of town ; I believe that the Secretary must have attended, but he is absent sometimes, when the western clerk acts for him ; I have no doubt that he did attend most of the meetings of the Board ; or all the meet- ings of the Board ; but he is not a member of the Board, so as to have an opinion. With respect to the seizure of Indian goods stated in the report, are you prepared to say whether any proportion of what appear in this report to be seizures, consist, in fact, of goods which are known not to have been attempted to be run for the purposes of sale, but have been the properly of 312 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GloccstcrWilson of persons coming from India, and to have only exceeded the allowance Esq. of goods which the Customs thought proper for them to import for their *"- v ' own use, or ior presents ? — If for their own use, I should suppose it applies to wearing apparel ; I look upon a vast variety of seizures to be what are represented to us as presents; if we make a seizure which we really believe to have been for commerce, the representation to the Board would be, that it was sent home to a mother or to a sister, certainly nothing would ever be detected that would not be stated to be for a harmless- present or for private use. Is there any means of knowing what proportion of goods so seized have been purchased at the public sales, by the persons of whom they were so seized ?■ — I should think there would be very considerable difficulty ; since the person who should wish to purchase any article for himself, would pro- bably employ some agent, and certainly would not be anxious that it should be known he was a candidate for the purchasing his own article, for he would have to purchase at an increased price. Are not the articles intended for presents pretty well known at the Custom-House ? — Yes, they are krewn at the Custom-House ; but those intended for presents would do very well for sale, though those really in- tended tor presents frequently become seized ; because it is extremely probable, that where a present is sent home from India, the friend en- trusted with it will endeavour to run it ; we are perfectly satisfied, in a variety of instances, that the article run has been run without the intention of the parties ; but that is often the case, and there would hardly be a present ot the kind which would not be attempted to be run, generally speaking. [The witness withdrew. Adjourned to Thursday next, ] 1 o'clock.. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, III Jovis, 22° die Apr His, 181 3. The Right Hon. John Sullivan, in the Chair. GLOCESTER WILSON, Esquire, Was again called in, and examined by the Committee as follows : Have you been able to ascertain any errata in the report from the Com- GlocesterWilson missioners of the Customs ? — 1 have, and I am happy to say that they are Esq. hardly to be considered as errors; the first is in the article of tea, in l -y ' page 100, which is included under the column of warehousing duties, whereas tea pays no warehousing duty whatever, but the warehousing duties are that proportion of the duties which the East-India Company pay themselves ; and they likewise pay the whole of the duty upon tea, though not a warehousing duty ; and therefore it was inserted in that co- lumn, as the officer intended it should include the whole of the payments made by the Company themselves. Are there any considerable errors in figures ?— < No, not that I am aware of. Deducting the amount of tea, and of piece goods, from the unrated articles, what was the total amount of the unrated duties in the year end- ing the 5th of January L812 ? — .£13,444. Having informed the Committee that additional security to the revenue has been derived from the revenue cruisers meeting the East-India ships in the mouth of the Channel, and putting officers on board those ships, is it the intention of the Board to use the same precautions in time of peace, as far as may be practicable ? — I presume so ; I am only an individual of the Board, and cannot speak to what is the intention of the Board, but it must occur to every person that the difficulty will perhaps render it al- most impracticable. Will not the same precautions be necesary, as far as may be practica- ble, to guard the revenue against abuses, when the out-ports are opened 1 S to' 3U MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GkcesterWihon to the export and import from India and China to Bristol, Liverpool, and Esq. Hull ? — It is but a late regulation with respect to London ; it certainly v y- i would be desirable, and would be necessary, as far as it could conveniently be done. Are you of opinion that the exiting establishment of officers and cruisers at those ports where those establishments have been formed, ac- cording to the nature of the trade hitherto carried on from them, would be sufficient to guard the revenue at those ports, when they shall be opened to the export and import from India and China to any number of vessels of not less than 350 tons, that may choose to embark in that trade ? — That is a quest'on to which. I am not entirely competent to spe.k ; the ports were selected as those which have the principal establishment of officers ; I know there is a difference of opinion among the practical offi- cers consulted, some of whom think a very trifling additional establish- ment will be necessary, and some a very considerable additional establish- ment will be necessary ; I should rather suppose, with respect to these ports being at present very principal ports, there may be nearly a sufficient establishment of officers there. Will not more cruisers be necessary, to endeavour to afford, as far as practicable, the same security ihat that trade now has, when brought to the port of London ? — I should think there may, but I am not competent to speak to that, for it would depend upon whether we should profes to meet the India fleets, and whether they should come in fleets; I am not sufficiently acquainted with the nature of the ports alluded to, to know whether we should attempt to meet India ships in advance from each of them ; it would be a question, when the thing was decided, how far we could profess to meet the India fleets coming to those ports, and whether it would be necessary to meet them. With respect to those ports which have been principally employed hi- therto in the import from the West Indies and America of heavy pack- ages ; as you informed the Committee you did not apprehend there was moie smuggling in those than in the port of London, do you imagine that, when, in addition to those bulky articles, the small and valuable arti- cles coming in India ships are brought to those ports, there will be no more danger of smuggling than there is of those buiky articles, and of course that there will not be occasion for a considerable number of addi- tional precautions ? — The Board have reported, that there would be a dan- ger of an increase of smuggling from the extension to the out-ports, and of course to meet that, if it was to be fully met, there must be an increase of EAST-INDIA COMPANTTS AFFAIRS. 315 of establishment - r bat whether it would be necessary or not, I can-not say : GhcesterWfis&t it would bedesirable, if there was an increased danger of smuggling, that Ksq. there should be an increased guard to counteract My but to what degree ' y- ' that might go I cannot say. It is not in your power to say what additional number of officers and cruiser3 would be necessary to give that security to the revenue which tire trade has now, when confined to the port of London, and what might be the additional patronage of the Crown in consequence ? — I am certainly not qualified to give an answer to that, but 1 believe the general idea of our officers is, that there would be no very considerable increase of esta- blishment necessary for those ports, if any, perhaps. Will the danger of fraud upon the Hvenue, either byre-landing pro- hibited articles, or articles on which a drawback has been received, be increased in proportion to the number of out-ports which shall be lega- lized for the export and import from India and China, in ships of nat les* than 350 tons ? — We think so, certainly. If the trade to India and China shall be opened to the out-ports of Great Britain that may be duly prepared for that trade, it appears that the Imperial Parliament cannot refuse to the out-ports of our sister kingdom', such as Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, and Belfast, the same licence, whenever they may be equally qualified ; will this indul- gence materially increase the danger to the revenue r — I think the answer to that is included in the report of the Board, that as far as the trade ifr opened there will of course be more opportunities for smuggling. In proportion as more ports become qualified and may be licensed by- government to carry on the import and export trade to China, will not the expense to the public for due guard of the revenue, and will not the patronage of the Crown be increased in that proportion ?— I think that is included in what I said before. I have In my pocket abstracts of most of the reports from the out-ports : I think the general tenor of those reports goes to no great increase of the establishments. In case of an opening of the trade, supposing that that extension was made by govern- ment upon the same principle which I understand to be in contemplation at present, that of taking ports only with large establishments of officers, of course this would not lead to any great extension ; if it was a principle hereafter, that no port should be taken till it had a sufficient estaolisi.- ment of officers to guard the revenue, then there would be no extension of establishment in consequence. 1 S 2 Arc 3-16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GlocesterWilson Are there many ports in the kingdom which might be opened, when Esq. duly qualified, that have establishments of officers, such as Bristol, Li- 1 — ' — y ' verpool, and Hull, that would not require an increase of establishment for the purpose of guarding the revenue, in case of the India trade being opened to them ? — It would depend entirely upon what establishment of officers was judged necessary in that case. We have certainly at present recommended only three ports, which is supposing there are not any other poits that are sufficiently qualified. In proportion as they may be deficient in such establishment, as at Bristol, Liverpool, and Hull, would not they require a proportionable increase of establishment ? — Certainly ; if at the present moment a num- ber of the smaller ports were opened, there would require an additional complement of officers, but they are no candidates for the opening.. What do you mean by being " no candidates for the opening ?" — With respect to many of the ports, the return from our officers in those ports is, that they do not wish for the opening of the trade, and that they would not engage in it; that is the return from many of the ports ; that they do not believe that there would be any India trade carried on from the port, if it were opened : some of them have said, we have no capa- cities for it, we have no depth of water ; and there would be no trade. Will not the admission of ships so small as 350 tons, considerably in- crease the capability of ports for admitting the India trade, which, if they were coafined to heavy ships, could not engage in it ? — Certainly. May not an estimate be made of the expense attending the collection of the revenue on the India and China trade, in the mode in which that trade is now carried on ? — No, I should think not ; at least no estimate that the Committee could depend upon ; because, sup osing an estimate was made, and we found that there was a considerable danger to the re- venue, we should feel it our duty to recommend an increase to that es- tablishment, so that any estimate we could form now, must be very gene- ral, and would be liable to augmentation or diminution any day. Is not the expense of collecting the revenue at present made up and returned by the East-India Company ? — The duties are paid in by the East-India Company. 'I hat keeps all the revenue together, and facilitates its collection ? — Certainly. On ■— — ^y ■■■■■»■— ^ EAST. INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 3 17 On the whole, do you think that any mode for carrying on the India QlocesterlVUsoa and China trade can be devised, subject to so little danger of fraud upon Esq. the revenue, at so small expense, and so free from the objection of in- creasing the patronage of the Crown, as bringing the whole of that traJe to London, where the superior Board resides, with its officers under its eye, and may immediately counteract any evasions that might be devised, whereas the same evasions at the distant ports, might require some time to counteract them? — I can only say, as I have befoitksaid, that we do conceive the East-India Company, as far as the articles come to their warehouses, do not smuggle in any respect whatever; and therefore we do collect the whole of the duties, and we collect them very conveniently, and with great security to the revenue, as far as the articles come to their warehouses. Of course the duties are collected at less expense, and with less pa- tronage to the Crown ? — As to the patronage of the Crown, I can say nothing : it is reported to us, that there would be little increase of esta- blishment n.cessary ; at present there is perfect security for the payment of the duties ; they are extremely well collected, as far as respects the East-India Company. From your general knowledge of trade, is it not the the general opi- nion of underwriters and persons engaged in trade, that the proportion of passage between the Lizard and Gravesend, is that proportion where the greatest risk exists, both from the navigation and the enemy's privateers ? — I have no pretensions to general knowledge in trade; I should certainly suppose the principal danger is, when you come near to the port where the principal trade of the kingdom centres ; both smugglers and cruisers would attach themselves to the entrance to the Thames, where there is the greatest concourse. Is not that proportion of the passage contained between the Lizard and Gravesend, considered as more abounding in danger than any other part of the voyage ? — Ishouid think the opening of the Thames ;vould be a very dangerous put, except that there is a ileet in the Downs, otherwise it is no doubt a very dangerous part of the Channel. Do not you also consider it as relating to the enemy? — Certainly it is a dangerous part in that respect. Is not that part of the Channel contained within the above limits, the most active for smugglers, in defrauding the revenue ? — It is a very con- siderable ff§ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON T»M GlocesterWilson siderable part of the Channel for smuggling, but that is owing very much l-Vq. to the smuggling- from rrre- French cuast ; I do not know that it is pairti- .««_ -y > 'cularly open to smuggling from East India ships. From the Soundings to Gravesend, is not the revenue defrauded most,, •principally from- the India ships? — The smuggling from the vessels will be near the shore, and if we were to meet them further, the smugglers would go further, and we should have perhaps to meet the fleet at Scilly; but no doubt, throughout the Channel, from the time they come to Soundings, is the time in which the ships are plundered. Do not you apprehend that the facilities of the King's cruisers, con- stantly moving off the port of Plymouth, would tend materially to pro- tect the revenue ? — The King's cruisers might be made to do so, but we are not sure how far they always do protect the revenue ; that port being a naval port, is felt by us as an objection to the opening of the trade to it. If secure warehouses were established in the port of Plymouth, or in any port whicli may be hereafter thought proper, is there any more dan- ger of the goods being smuggled from that warehouse at Plymouth, or Bristol, Liverpool, or any where else, than there is of their being smug- gled in the Company's warehouses in London-? — That is a question I hardly know how to answer ; we should not feel the same security. There are a variety of merchants in whom I should have the same con- fidence as in the Company, but we have a confidence, generally speak- ing, in the Company, that we might not have in all merchants; we should not feel exactly the same security with respect to individuals, though I am satisfied that many of them would not attempt smuggling. After the goods are once warehoused in these -storehouses, does not it depend upon the Custom-House officers, and not upon the Company ox the owner of the goods, whether the duties are legally paid, or not ? — Certainly; if the warehouse was in every respect approved of, in a port where there was a sufficient establishment of confidential officers, there would be no more danger of articles in a warehouse there than in the Company's warehouse. What distinction do you make between the Company, as merchants, and any other respectable merchants? — Certainly no distinction, except that the Company are merchants of the very first respectability. "When a vessel arrives, and reports at the Custom-House, are not the whole 1AST-TNDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. St'J svfcole goods bonded for payment of the duties ; and do not they remain CocesterW/km under the King's lock till they are entered either for home consumption Esq. or for exportation, and by that means no credit whatever given to the * v~""— ' merchants? — No credit is given to the merchants; if the articles are warehoused, the Crown does not suffer the goods to go till the duties are secured. As to those goods that are not warehoused, must not the duties be paid before the goods go into consumption ? — The duties must be paid, or the officer must become responsible for them. Then in all cases the duty is either paid or secured to the government, or bond given, and the goods lodged for payment of the duties ? — As far as I fully understand the question, I presume it merely goes to this fact, that certainly, unless articles are smuggled in some way or other, the du- ties are absolutely secured before the articles are parted with ; but we know that smuggling does take place. Are not all the goods, before they enter the bonded warehouse, weigh- ed or gauged, for the payment of the duty; and is not the duty payable upon that weight and upon that gauge, and not upon what the contents or weight of the goods upon coming out of the warehouse may be ? — 'I certainly conceive so. If a hogshead of rum is entered as 200 gallons, and happens to run out entirely, is that duty lost to the revenue ? — No, it is not. Then any goods, after they are placed in the King's warehouses under bond being smuggled from those warehouses, the duties cannot be lost to the revenue? — No, they would not; upon a statement of the circum- stances to the Treasury, there might bean application for relief, which might be granted. You have stated that the circumstance of tea being prohibited to be brought by the private trader, would not make a material difference, in your opinion, as to the probability of the increase of smuggling? — I believe, I have said it would not in respect of smuggling other articles than tea, of course it would make the whole difference as to that very material article, but not to the question as it was referred to us with regard to the other articles. With respect to tea, you do not think there would be any very material increase 520 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GhccsterJJ'ihon increase in the danger of smuggling, the importation of tea remaining Esq. upon the system upon which the law now stands ? — In respect of tea itself, *-^ — y ' I should think that tea might be smuggled ; more, that it might give an opening to the smuggling of tea. In what way do you think that smuggling would take place ? — I am hardly competent to say that, only from the vessels that come with other Indian goods contriving to secrete tea. Have you in that answer considered the circumstances of the having tea on board, between the East-Indies and this country, rendering the ship and cargo liable to confiscation ? — Certainly, the extreme penalty that might be made to attach, might be a considerable prevention, and would probably be so ; 1 hardly know to what extent, it would depend on the restrictions under which the trade was placed; but I considered the ques- tion put to me to be, how far the excluding tea'wculd relieve the opening of the trade from tending to a general increase of smuggling ; I think, that it might still afford an opening even to the smuggling of more of the article of tea. Do you allude to a time of war as well as of peace ? — Yes, I think so ; we suppose the smuggling in time of peace would be even greater than in time of war; but 1 speak very uncertainly how far tea might be en- dangered by merely opening the trade in other articles. You have stated that the smuggling of tea at present, exists in a much less degree than might be expected from the state of the duties, to what do you attribute that circumstance ? — The reports in general run, that there have not been any great quantities of tea smuggled ; I do not know to what cause to attribute that, except that there is not the same facility for smu^Q-imo- tea that there is for smuggling other articles. How is it that there is nr,t the tame facility ? — I speak generally from the reports of our officers, that there have not been large quantities of tea smuggled lately, I have not considered the point particularly. You think that the proposed opening of the trade would overcome the resistance now opposed, from some circumstances, whatever they may be, to the smuggling of tea ? — I did not say that; I was asked, whether if the trade was opened with the restriction of not opening the China trade, there would be an increase of smuggling, and I said, I thought there would, with the exception of tea ; that i supposed there would be the same increase -y-. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 321 increase of smuggling in other articles, except tea ; I say also, I think that GIoceslcrJFihon it would increase the smuggling of tea in the out-ports. Esq. (. Do you mean to give a strong opinion, that the smuggling of tea would be greatly increased by the proposed measure of admitting other articles to the out ports ? — Certainly I do not mean to give a strong opinion ; but if ships were allowed to come from other parts of India, I should think it might tend to an increased smuggling of tea also; but I have not, however, formed a strong opinion upon that point. You have stated, that by the report of the officers very little smuggling has taken place in the article of tea lately ; if you were assured that from the price of tea in America a very considerable inducement was held out to the masters and other persons on board the American and other neutral vessels coming to this country, and that even with that inducement no con ■ siderable smuggling 1 ad taken place, while those vessels were not liable to seizure or confiscation, or to any penalty till their actual arrival in the ports of this country, would you have reason to apprehend that any con- siderable amount of smuggling is likely to take place in a British vessel coming from India, and liable to penalty and confiscation of ship and cargo ? — I think that there would be reason to apprehend smuggling, and the general opinion is, that there would be of course ; there might be severe penalties imposed, which might tend to prevent it, but we fear they would not be of perfect avail, because penalties are not of perfect avail, at pre- sent, to prevent smuggling. Then the Committee is to understand it to be your opinion, that although there was a considerable inducement to smuggle, from the price of tea in America, the very great facility for smuggling, the less risk ia neutral vessels, and though smuggling has not taken place to any con- siderable amount, yet you are apprehensive smuggling may take place from India, notwithstanding all the penalties that can possibly be attached to that transaction on board a British ship ? — I think so certainly, the object of an American vessel which comes here, is not at present to smug- gle tea. Supposing a vessel came from India, and tea was the principal article of smuggling, the vessel might have that as its chief object, and of course then the risk would be greatly increased. Then the Committee is to understand that you think it likely that a person who is desirous of engaging in smuggling tea would prefer a Bri- tish vessel, liable to all the penalties that have been stated, and to seizure on every part of her voyage from India to this country, rather than em- 2 T ploy 322 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GloccslerWilson ploy a neutral vessel which is not liable to any one of those penalties till Esq. her arrival in this country ? — I do not suppose that he would prefer it v r ; under the same circumstances ; but I think it is extremely likely that an Englishman, having a vessel of his own coming, would not think of freighting an American vessel to bring that tea : he may add articles for the sake of smuggling them, though he would not freight articles on board a foreign ship for a smuggling venture only. Under what restrictions is a neutral vessel, as the law now stands, as to smuggling ? — A vessel would be liable to seizure if she came into port, and to forfeiture ; or if she was hovering within the limits stated in the Hovering Act. What are those limits ? — A hundred leagues from the coast for our own vessels ; it is different for different vessels. May not a neutral ship, in time of war, or any foreign ship, in time of peace, sail up the Channel with teas, destined to any port on the continent of Europe ? — I think so, certainly. And approach within a few leagues of our coast ? — Yes. Supposing the temptation to smuggling to be great, would not smug*- gling from such vessels be much more likely to be carried on than in En-' glish vessels, under the circumstances described in former questions ■? — I should think not altogether more likely ; because the person who embarks in this smuggling transaction on board a foreign vessel, knowing that that foreign vessel could not come into any of our ports, would have great dif- ficulty in securing its arrival. Why should not that foreign vessel come into our ports ? — He must have smuggled it first ; if he was to come into port with the tea, the dan- ger would be incurred equally with the British vessel. Would not the British vessel be exposed to every difficulty that the / foreign vessel would he exposed to, and to the danger of seizure at sea, in addition to which the foreign vessel would not be liable ? — Yes. o" Are you acquainted with the nature of the smuggling that took place in tea before the Commutation Act passed ? — It was very great. Do you think that the danger of smuggling by fraudulent re-exports . ... would EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 323 would be increased by the proposed opening of the trade ? — "We have GlocesterWilson reported that we think it would. Ksq. i r > Do you consider that, with respect to that species of smuggling, there would be a material difference in the case of admitting articles, except tea, to the out-ports, and tea to London only, confining that to the Com- pany ? — No, not with respect to the re-landing articles ; the re-landing, of course, would be from vessels exporting. Do you think that, admitting other articles than tea, but not tea, to the out-ports, would increase the danger of that species of smuggling as applied to tea ? — If it is the re-landing of tea to which the question goes, I do not see, if tea is not allowed to be carried to the out-ports, how it is to increase the danger of re-landing tea, because there will not be tea imported to the out-ports to be re-landed : the danger of re-landing must depend up- on the quantity that is exported from the different ports; as far as there ;is an export trade from the out-ports there will be an increased opportuni- ty of re-landing. Is not the article of tobacco subject to peculiarly high penalties in cer- tain cases ? — Certainly. Have )ou reason to believe that that penalty is very frequently incurred? — It certainly is incurred ; with respect to the frequency, that is matter of opinion. Would not the risk incurred by those ships laden with tea, the having which on board, under any circumstances, would be illegal, and subject to this high penalty, be much greater than it is in any case with respect to tobacco ? — I should think the very same. A ship and cargo is liable to confiscation on account of having tobacco on board only within certain limits of the coast, the ship and cargo being liable to confiscation in consequence of having tea in any part of the voyage, do you not conceive that in that case the risk would be greater ? — Under those circumstances, the risk would be certainly greater in hav- ing tea than in having tobacco. Is not the danger to the revenue considered greater in proportion as the port is distant from the seat of the authority of the commissioners ? — If we suppose a port has very good officers, we may suppose it equally safe as one under our own view. 2 T 2 Speaking 324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GlocesterWiison Speaking generally, is it considered as equally safe ? — 1 really hardly Ksq. know how to answer that question : with respect to my own individual - J opinion, I should be sorry to say, that out of my own sight I thought nothing safe; what is under our own supervision we ought to suppose we take considerable care should be collected accurately; and so far, general- ly speakinp, in proportion to the distance it is removed, the less can we depend upon its being correctly done; but it is not exactly in proportion to the distance from the Board that so far there is danger; there may be places where we have not so good officers. Do not the Board apprehend more danger to the revenue at distant ports, not under their own inspection, than those under their own inspection ? — Certainly we should say of the out-ports, generally, that they are not so safe as those under our own inspection. Do you know that the warehousing duty upon muslins and nankeens is at present ten per cent, upon the sale value, and that the proposed addi- tional duties of customs will increase the duty to £\\. 17s. 6d. per cent? — I believe so. Do you think, such being the duty, that it would be important to the safety of the revenue, thdt the articles of muilins and nankeens should be brought to the port of London, whether intended for home consump- tion or exportation, and sold at the sales of the East-India Company ? — We have reported, that we do think it of importance to the revenue, that it should be so ; we have certainly reported in favour of the present system. By whom have the returns been made, relative to the port of Bristol, to the Commissioners of the Customs in London ? — They have been made by the collector and comptroller in every port, consulting with the practi- cal officers in the port. Were the reports made to the Commissioners of the Customs upon specific questions sent down to the port of Bristol ? — They were, upon the questions referred by the Treasury to the Board of Customs; there were nine questions originally, and afterwards six questions. No other questions were proposed by the Commissioners of Customs than those transmitted by the Treasury ? — No additional questions were proposed. And EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 325 And the same as to Liverpool and Hull ? — The same to all the out- GloceslerWUson ports. The questions were sent clown : I believe there were no additional Esq. questions asked ; but it was their duty to report general observations, in *■ r * addition to their answers to those questions. No question has been put to any officers at the out-ports with respect to the expediency of sending out vessels to meet ships coming from In- dia, supposing them to be destined for those ports, Bristol, Liverpool, and Hull ?— No. The Board of Commis^oners are in possession of no information on that subject, as to taking the precautions for those ports which they think it necessary to take as to London ? — I should certainly think not ; I have read the reports of all the officers; I should hardly think, in the present state of the subject, that it would be. a question referred to them, but that that would be a question the Board would decide themselves. No question has been put as to the extent of smuggling from the Land's End to Liverpool and Bristol ? — I do not know that any question has been distinctly put upon that subject; but there has been a statement that it would be exposed to danger in those parts. Are the returns from the out-ports very voluminous ? — No, they are- not. Would there be any difficulty in returning them to the Committee ?— No, I should conceive not. The Committee, however, should be aware, that the returns are from various officers hi the different ports, in some of whom we should not place considerable reliance, owing to the port "being small, and the officers not having had considerable practical know- ledge. No officer has been sent down from London to any of the out-ports to communicate with the officers at the out-ports ? — No; as I understand our selection of those ports, it has chiefly depended upon their being the principal ports of the kingdom : if we had selected those ports on ac- count of any particular local advantages, I should i ave thought it highly important that we should have produced somebody to have spoken to those particular local advantages; but we have, as far as it has gone, taken the three principal ports. We thought it was proper it should be a restricted trade, if opened, and we have, I conceive, taken these ports, because they have docks and establishments of officers, and are well si- tuated 3: '' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ' "■'•' ikon tuated so a; to extend the commerce, in some degree, through the king- '!' doru. Having se'ected those ports, not from any particular convenience "~V~ in the puns themselves, we have not had occasion to enter so minutely into the nature of their conveniences. Then you do not apprehend that the Commissioners of Customs, in making their report upon these three ports, took into account either the local advantages or disadvantages of those ports ? — I Was not present when the Commissioners took that into consideration. I have no doubt if there had been any considerable inaptitude which had struck them as to any port, that would have been a ground of exclusion of that port, but I conceive that was not the point immediately in consideration ; it was a selection of those ports where there was a large establishment of officers, and to which it could be extended with most convenience. Has any further inquiry been made as to those ports since the date of the first report which is printed ; — Not to my knowledge. With respect to the facility of Indiamen, on their voyage home, smuggling goods out of the ships, is there any particular officer at the Custom-House, to whom you can refer the Committee for accurate infor- mation, you having said you were not competent, not being a practical officer, to answer these questions ? — The inspectors of the river would be competent to answer questions with respect to the smuggling, when in the river and in the port ; but we conceive the principal smuggling does not take place after it comes into the charge of those officers, but in the mouth of the Channel, from vessels and boats, before they get into the port; the inspector of the river can speak to the smuggling which takes place after the vessels get into the port ; the goods are put out of the In- dian vessels, on board pilot boats and row boats. The officers of the Customs, sent down to meet the Indiamen, can give information as to what passes while they are under the superintendence of those persons ?— I should think so. Have any instances occurred, to your knowledge, of collusion between the Company's officers in London and the officers of the Customs? — With respect to the Company's officers and our officers in London, there have ; I should wish to make a distinction between the Company's officers on shore, as to whom I do not recollect any instance, and those on board : in most of the instances of seizure in the port of London, we have had reason EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 327 reason to suspect collusion between our officers and the Company's offi- GhctsterWikon cers on board. Esq. y v Is it the practice in such a case, to make a representation to the East- India Company ? — I think not. Do you know whether the Company take any steps to prevent any col- lusion, or whether any officer is subject to dismissal, in consequence of its being discovered ? — I am not aware of any communication to the Com- pany. Nor that the Company dismiss their officers in case of detection ? — ■ I have not known the Company dismiss captains of their vessels for smug- gling against the revenue ; I recollect an instance in which we prosecuted, but it was a much greater offence against the Company than it was against the revenue; it was a case of a captain of an Indiaman having arms on board, exporting arms, which was a higher offence against the Company than against the revenue ; it was detected as a revenue offence and prosecuted by us ; in that case, the penalties were very severe ; I am not competent to say, whether the Company would dismiss an officer for the mere act of smuggling; we punish with considerable severity our- selves, but. I believe that we should fee] a delicacy in reporting farther to the Company : I do not recollect any instance of our reporting to the East-India Company any mere act of smuggling in an officer of theirs. Do you think that the officers on board a merchant's ship are as likely to be under restraint from collusive practices with officers of the revenue as the officers on board the'East-India Company's ships ? — I hardly know why they should not ; the only difference that I am aware of is, that on board other ships, it might be, that the owner or proprietor might be sus- pected of being a party on board the East-India Company's ships ; we do not suspect the Company of any collusion. Are you acquainted with the nature of the marine establishment in Europe under the management of the East-India Company ? — To a cer- tain extent. Are the commanders and officers of those ships regularly bred in that service ?— Yes, I conceive so. Do you know how many voyages, to and from India, they are required to make before they can have the command of a ship ? — Certainly not, that I could give in detail ; and I believe that that is altered. Yoj 328 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE GlocesterJfihon You mentioned that the principal smuggling took place in the Channel ? Esq. — We think so. * , 1 Do you, upon the expected arrival of an East-India fleet, direct any of the revenue crui ers to crui e in certain places to meet them; and in what parts of the Channel ? — I believe that any one of our crui-ers which meets an India fleer at any distance in the Channel, follows them up till she puts them into the power of another of the crui ers ; and we send down from London tide-waiters to board the vessels ; we have sent them down to the Downs, and in some instances to meet the fle t at Portsmouth ; and as it has been threatened that they would unload the ships much lower down, we might hereafter feel a necessity of sending them further on. Your practice has not been to send them further than the Downs or .Portsmouth ? — No. When the cruisers meet with any of these vessels in the Channel, do they only accompany them, or put any officers on board ? — The cruisers only accompany them ; but when the officers sent down meet them, they go on board. Would not the expected increase of the general trade with India from laying it open, be likely to produce a considerable increase of revenue ? — Supposing the fact ascertained, that there would be a considerable increase of trade, no doubt it would be attended with an increase of revenue. Would not such increase of revenue be likely to counterbalance the additional expence of collection, and any defalcation which might arise from smuggling ? — Supposing the increase of trade to be considerable, I should have no hesitation in saying, that any considerable increase of trade, I should hope, would more than counterbalance the increased expence of collecting the revenue upon it, because I should suppose a considerable increase of trade might take place without any considerably increased -expence in the collection ; but I am not competent to speak as to whe- ther an increased trade would take place. Would not the facilities of smuggling be greater in time of peace than at present, even if the trade with India were not laid open, or if open, confined to the port of London ? — We certainly suppose there would be more smuggling in time of peace than there is at present in time of war. Would EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. $?9 Would not an increase of establishment, and consequent expence, be Ghccster Wilson necessary on the return of peace, even if the trade with India were not Esq. opened ? — An increase of expence is almost constantly taking place ; we < 4 J are altering the system of arrangement every day ; T do no: apprehend that we should immediately, consequent upon a peace, find it necessary to increase the establishment ; I conceive there would be no immediate in- crease of establishment upon a peace, though, whether it is peace or war, we are frequently obliged to add to our establishment. Would not a greater number of Custom House vessels be necessary ? — We have just made an alteration in the system of the water-guaid, and at that time we. reduced some of our cutters, but it was not on account of the war that we reduced them. Would not the apprehension of an increase of smuggling render an increase of establishment necessary ? — If we apprehended an increase of smuggling, we should increase our establishment ; but I do not apprehend that we should necessarily increase our establishment in case of a peace. You have stated that there is greater difficulty in guarding large ships than small ones in the river ; are not the Company's ships employed in the China trade of the largest class, or from twelve to fourteen hundred tons ? — I have stated that in port some of the practical officers were of that opinion ; that some of the officers have said, though the larger ton- nage was highly essential to prevent smuggling in arriving at the port, yet in port they thought the small vessels easier guarded; but that was merely the opinion of some of the officers. Have not you heard of large quantities of teas being found floating about in the river, particularly when the China fleets have had fair winds up Channel, and run into the Downs in the course of a few hours after making the land ? — I have heard that tea is thrown overboard ; I have seen tea brought into Hastings that was thrown overboard ; I do not know that we have had reports of it being in any great quantities. Do you know that, in point of fact, teas of the same qualities are so much cheaper in America than in England, as in that respect to furnish a strong inducement to smuggle tea from the former country to the latter ? — 1 have certainly heard so ; I am not competent to say what the price of teas in America is. [The witness withdrew.! 2 U ROBERT 330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ROBERT NICHOLAS, Esq. was called in, and examined asfolWs. RobertXich-jlas, Mr Adam.'] You are chairman of the Board of Commissioners of Ex- Esq. cise ? — I am. How long have you held that situation ? — I have been chairman about ten years. How long, altogether, have you been a commissioner of excise ? — Two and twenty years. Have you had occasion, in your situation of commissioner and chair- man of the Board of Excise, to consider the probable effect upon illicit trade that might arise from opening the trade with India ? — I have. Do you consider, that if the trade from India were opened with the out- ports of the kingdom, generally, the opportunity for illicit trade, or for smuggling, would be considerably increased ? — I should think it would. Have you had occasion to consider, upon the supposition that the China trade is not to be opened, whether the opening the India trade would give a facility to the smuggling of tea by ships trading to India? — Unquestionably the Board of Excise has considered that subject ; and I conceive, speaking for myself and for the Board, for such was our opinion, the trade going to India for India goods might bring teas which would be introduced into this country in a fraudulent manner. Have you considered this with reference to opening the trade to all the out ports of the kingdom, generally, or have you considered it likewise with reference to the opening particular ports to this trade ? — We have considered it in both respects. Is it your opinion, th?t opening the trade to and from India to par- ticular ports, would give an opportunity to an increase of smuggling or illicit trade ? — I should think it would. To what ports have the Board of Excise considered that the India trade might be opened ? — The Board have reported, that they conceive the ports of Hull, Bristol, Liverpool, Plymouth, and Dover (but as to that port we afterwards charged our opinion upon a subsequent report) might be opened, under qualifications certainly, which I believe we have expressed in our report. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 331 Can you state to the Committee, the reasons which induced the Board Rober'Vicholan, or induced you, as a member of that Board, to consider those as fit potts to which the trade should be opened, or why they are more fit than any s other ports in the kingdom? — We considered those ports which we have mentioned, except Dover, as fitter ports than any other ; but we did not conceive that those pons were, in the first moment of opening the trade, fit. What did you consider necessary to be done at those ports, for the purpose of rendering them safe ports, as far as they could be made safe, on an opening of the trade ? — We thought it would be necessary to ap- point officers, or ourselvts (which has sometimes been done, but not often) to examine those ports, and to see how they were situate as to warehouse?, docks, approach, and all other points which would occur to the mind of a person interested for the revenue of the country, in reference to their receiving those goods. Did you communicate with the officers of those different ports in your department, in order to obtain specific information from them on these points ? — Yes, we did. Is it in your power now to state.withwhom you communicated at Liverpool for that information ? — We communicated there with the two Collectors of Excise (there are two collections at Liverpool, it has been lately divided) and the Excise-Inspector General of the port. At Bristol, with whom did you communicate ? — I think there with the collector, we have no inspector-general at Bristol. At Plymouth, with whom did you communicate ? — With the collector only. At Hull? — Only with the collector. Did those officers at the different out-ports send to. you written returns to your queries ? — They did in every instance. Are those returns filed in your office ? — Yes ; they are all in possession of the office ; I have myself had access to every one of them, and have absttacted them ; and it may be almost expedient for me to refer tg them in answer to the questions, they contain minute information. With regard to the port of Hull, what are the particular circumstances 2 U 2 respecting 332 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Nicholas, respecting the situation of that port, that induced you to suppose that the Esq. illicit trade might be increased by opening the trade to that port? — I ' — — -V ? have never myself been at the port of Hull as a Commissioner of Excise, but I derive my information from the reports which have been received from the port, and also from surveys of the port, which, I remember, I have seen at the time when the Warehousing Act was first applied to the port of Hull ; and to printed plans of the port of Hull ; and I certainly could not name each part of the approach to the port of Hull, which might be a dangerous approach for the revenue, bur the general concep- tion I have of that port is, that it is so narrow in some parts, and the water in some parts not sufficiently deep to take our cutters, which might protect the revenue ; and that, when you arrive at the port of Hull itself, though it has two wet docks, those docks are not walled and protected in such a way as we have wished a wet dock to be. With regard to the port of Liverpool, what do you apprehend to be the particular circumstances connected with that port, and the approach to it, which would give rise to danger? — I have understood from the reports to the Board, that the approach to the port of Liverpool is considerable in length ; that the port itself is preferable to any other port for the reception of East-India goods, and as long ago as the month of August, which was the date of the first report to the Board, the officers conceived that there would be a dock with a wall round it in the course of about six weeks : and as I did not expect to be called upon to day, but on the 29th, I had ordered a fresh report that I might be able to speak to it, whether that dock was finished ; supposing that dock (the King's dock) to be finished, covering seven or eight acres, we conceive tint would be a very safe dock, and from the means we have of placing our cutters, so as to protect the ships coming into the port, we think the port of Liverpool might be a secure port for the revenue; and as such, I believe, we named it first. Did you cons'der what size of ships ought to be permitted to carry on the trade from the out-ports to India? — We considered four or five hundred rons to be a necessary size ; that a smaller sized vessel than that would be moie commodious, and favour persons who were engaged in any illicit purpose of smuggling. Did you consider that it would be more advantageous to have them 500 it ns burthen, or only 400 tons ? — On the principle on which we founded our opinion, 500 tons would be better than 400 tons, as being a larger vessel, and less liable to smuggle. In EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 2 3S In consequence of the navigation of those vessels down St. George's Rober Nicholas, Channel to the port of Liverpool, did you take into consideration how Esq. far, tinder the circumstances of that navigation, there would be an * v ' increased liability to smuggling ? — I do not recollect that we did. Supposing the approach to the port of Liverpool to be round by the north of Ireland, did you consider whether, by that navigation, there would be an increased facility of smuggling to the coast of Ireland or Scotland ? — The longer line of coast a ship has to pass in approaching this country, we should conceive to increase the means and the tempta- tion to smuggling. Did you consider of any means by which the liability to smuggling in those voyages, in the approach to the port of Liverpool, might be pre- vented ? - By our officers keeping, as I apprehend, they now do, a very strict watch, so as to perceive when ships come within view, which in fine weather, I understand, may be seen for ten or fifteen leagues. Did you consider of any means by which the smuggling might be prevented by any regulations to be made respecting the loading of goods under manifest }■ — We did, certainly. Have the goodness to state to the Committee, what the result of your consideration was ? — We thought that the Manifest Act might be made more useful for the purposes of the revenue by an enlargement of the penalties, and by forfeiture of goods, and by other clauses that might have been introduced into it ; such as obliging the proprietor of the goods to give bond ; the commanders, and other officers, also to be under security ; we felt, that though we recommended a high penalty, yet that it would be in the power of the Board of Excise, under several acts of parliament, one especially giving the power of compromise, to soften that penalty in c:\ses that would admit of it, or to enforce the full penalty in cases that were extravagantly fraudulent. Have you found by experience that the attempts to regulate frauds against the revenue by manifest, are attended with extreme difficulty ?— The usual way in which we have notice of offences against the Manifest Act, is, by the communication of the report of our officers on the landing of the goods; and unquestionably we have had cases which have been of an extiemely gross kind; and we have had cases which have been by no means gross, which we could suppose owing to the frauds of the Chinese, or to circumstances which may have arisen during the illness of the cap- tain, 334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ^Robert Nicholas, tain, when his ship was loading j it has been my duty, as Chairman of the Esq. Board, to distingu.sh those cases, and not to call the attention of the 1 v — ' Board to those, as cases to be prosecuted perhaps at all, in many cases to be compromised, or if prosecuted ultimately, when the commander, or whoever may be under prosecution, may have sued for mercy, to extend as much leniency to him as possible ; that has often happened, and would, I trust, happen under any increased penalty. Does not the making up a manifest, accurately or inaccurately, depend very much upon the hurry with which a vessel may be obliged to sail, and the peremptory orders she may have to sail by a particular time ? — -I should imagine it must. May not a very fair trade be in that way rendered liable to the risk, and to all the vexation attending upon non-compliance with the Manifest Act? — I am not experienced in the time required, or the circumstances of loading a ship; but I can suppose that where a trader has a great risk at stake, either the commander of his ship, or whosever duty it is, will take care to see all the articles on board intended to be contained in the manifest; that is matter of opinion. What are the instances, then, in which you state that you have been .under the necessity of releasing from the penalties of the Manifest Act, in consequence of its appearing that the manifest was not complied with pwing not to design but to accident ? — Instances, such as the sickness of the commander, then not knowing what the contents of the chests were; every sort of case which has admitted of a construction of fair conduct, I have certainly thought it my duty not to prosecute with the utmost se- verity of the Manifest Act ; that is, to compromise under a penalty of the Manifest Act, and ia some instances to be satisfied with the forfeiture of the goods. Still you have found it necessary to have the goods condemned, under the terms of the act ? — Sometimes we have, if the goods were, as has been found to be the case, saw dust put into the chests instead of tea, that is not a case in which we should consider the commander as culpable, and yet he has not brought his proper article. He has not brought home his article according to the manifest ? — No. Has that happened ?— It has happened often. Those EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. S3 5 There are instances that must necessarily have happened in the case of RobcrtNichvlaSj ships in the service of the East-India Company, and only in those cases ? Esq. . —Certainly only in those cases. ' Do nut you consider that it is much more easy to deal with the large ship'' that bring home East-India articles directly to the port of London, limited in number, to be docked and warehoused in the East- India Com- pany's docks and warehouses, than if the trade were to be brought home in single ships of smaller burthen to different ports ? — I should think it would. Do you consider that a considerable advantage arises to the safety of the revenue, from the trade being brought to a port more immediately under the superintendence of the Board ? — The Board having officers at the different ports recommended, depends upon those officers for a strict' attention to their duty ; but officers who are close to the Board will be- much sooner amenable for any misconduct, and are in general from ex- perience, I know, much more attentive to their duty. In consequence of the Board's being situated in the port of London, does it appear to you that a considerable advantage arises, in respect to • safety to the revenue, from the East-India and China trade being directed ' to the port of London only ? — For the same reasons I gave in my last answer, I should think it did. You have mentioned the port of Hull as one of the ports reported by the Board ; do you consider the navigation between the mouth of the Thames and the port of Hull affords increased opportunities of smuggling and illicit trade r — I think that it does ; there is mote coast to pass by, more spots upon which to land goods, and from whence persons fraudu- lently disposed may come to receive goods from the ships. Have you had any consideration of the port of Newcastle, as a port which might be included ? — Yes, we have ; Newcastle stands the last of those on which we directed reports. What is your reason for not including the port of Newcastle among the enumerated ports ? — We considered it as deficient in those requisites which we thought would be wanting for receiving the Indian goods. Will you enumerate those requisites which you considered as neces- sary ? — If the Committee will allow me to refer to the paper I have in ray 536 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JxobertNichohts, my pocket. The mouth of the port is the river Tyne, obstructed by Esq. beds of sand, is above ten miles from the lawful quays, and about four hundred yards wide for two mdes ; it then forms a lake, three quarters of a mile square on the south, which at low water is nearly drv ; above the lake it serpentines betwixt rocks, where it is narrow, but passing them, it expands to the width of 180 to 200 yards, and continues the same to Newcastle : there are no islands; the banks are high, and in- creased in height by ballast unladen from the passing vessels. In its course there are two or three shallows at ebb, which have not more than four or five feet water, so that vessels of more than 200 tons do not pro- ceed far, but 400 tons can enter its mouth ; hence it will be necessary to put revenue officers on board vessels passing the bar, which may be done with safety there, or in any other part of the river: the largest: vessels must discharge their cargoes into keels, which are open craft, without decks, and this must be done at Shields, nine miles from the quays, and the vessels of 300 tons will generally reach Howden Pans, two miles higher, where they must also discharge into like keels, and those of 200 tons, not drawing above twelve feet water, may reach the legal quays ; the deduction of the collectors therefore is, that the East-India and China vessels must discharge at the mouth of the river, and that from thence, there would be evidently great risk and danger of smuggling clandestinely on shore. Was the petition from Newcastle upon Tyne for opening the East- India trade to that port, transmitted to your Board ? — No, certainly not; I do not recollect that any has been officially transmitted from any one of the ports. Have you had occasion to make a similar investigation into the state of the navigation of the Mersey up to Liverpool ? — I will pray the same indulgence to refer to my abstract : that ships from westward enter the port of Liverpool from the open sea, at the distance of twelve nv.les from the legal quays, and three miles from the Cheshire shore, when they enter the rock channel between North and Hogle sand banks. This channel at low water spring-tides is two miles over, good anchorage for large ships at seven fathoms water, unless a good wind enables them to pass the Rock Perch into the Mersey : there are two sand banks in this channel ; and at half flood ships generally pass between these banks and the Cheshire shore, at the distance of about a mile : before they reach the Mersey at the Rock Perch, tin y enter a narrow strait of 300 yards, and a mile and a half long, almost fordable at low water; but as the tide rises there inordinary spring tides to 30 feet, vessels of 1000 or 1200 e »ons EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 33*V tons enter with safety : in fact, ships from the Irish sea, or from the open lioberlXici.cLis, sea, turn into the port of Liverpool at the mouth of the Mersey, which Esq. is one mile and a half wide : all the sand banks without are completely [ < ' covered long before high water at spring-tides, and no islands intervene: the distance there from the legal quays will be only four miles. In mo- derate weather, revenue officers can be put on board below the north- west buoy, distant fourteen or fifteen miles from the legal quays, which is invariably the case now, a fleet of ships being off, and weather per- mitting; ships, in general, come to anchor near the mouth of the Mersey opposite the magazines, three miles below the legal quays, or at the Stoves, two miles above them, and the depth of water is from seven to nine fathoms at low water spring tides, so that ships of 800 or 1OO0 tons ride there safely ; ships of lighter burthen lie about the town, within a quarter of a mile or less of the legal quays. In all the above places, goods may be lawfully unshipped for importation, or re-shipped for ex- portation, in decked craft from fifty to seventy tons burthen. Does not think, from the situation of the port, that opportunities can often occur of putting goods on shore before the ships enter the docks : it is in the docks, where, on account of their being surrounded with shops and cellars, light packages may be smuggled on shore in the night in a few minutes, in spite of the utmost vigilanGe of the officers ; this will be remedied by the new plans, when the southernmost dock of the two new ones is completed with being walled round as the London docks. The west side of three of the present docks is capable of being inclosed ; one of which, viz. the King's dock, will be inclosed in six weeks ; the date of this is August 2gth 1 8 13. Recommends the Excise Board to pro- pose this dock for the East-India goods, as vessels of large burthen may pass into it : vessels may, in clear weather, be seen from Bidstone Hill in the lighthouse three miles from Liverpool, at ten or fifteen leagues dis- tance, the vessels known, and to whom consigned. When the weather permits, the lower station surveyor proceeds to meet the ships,, carrying with him as many tidesmen in the boats as he can, to place in vessels with exciseables, and to rummage as many other foreign ships as he can. The above practice is the best before vessels enter the docks, but we are not apprehensive of foreign goods being smuggled afloat to any amount ; and when the docks in hand are complete, no port in the kingdom will be more secure as to the revenue. Have you made any investigation as to Bristol, and are you able to. state whether there is a likelihood of smuggling, in approaching the port of Bristol? — It was many years ago since I was at Bristol myself, ad much has passed since as to the alteration of the port ; but I know, from 2 X the 338 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert'Skhohis, the course of the Severn and Avon, that the approach to Bristol is ex- Esq. tremely long ; that when the tide is up, vessels may ihrow into small craft <— — ' to be landed, goods coming up through that Channel ; that there is no wet dock at Bristol whatever of consequence ; there is a floating dock, I believe, and that it would be necessary to protect the ships' pass.ige through that long run of navigation, the whole way, witn water guard and land- guard. Have you had any opportunity of considering what increase of esta- blishment it might require, in order to protect the revenue, upon the sup- position of the East-India trade being extended to the specified ports ? — It is hardly possible to say to what amount the number of officers must be increased ; we occasionally appoint officers, with the approbation of the Lords of the Treasury, on new establishments, where the case requires it ; but I can imagine, if the trade is very much enlarged, there vv ill be not quite a proportionable increase of officers to the enlargement of the trade, because we employ officers occasionally: when an East-India fleet comes in, the established number of officers is not sufficient, and yet the Board is unwilling to propose a lasting establishment, but take persons to officiate for a time ; it is impossible therefore to say what increase might be neces- sary, but it w^uld most probably be under the proportionate increase of trade. Do you think the number of ports may be increased, without its being attended with the effect of increasing the trade ? — I am quite incompe- tent to answer that question, as a commissioner of Excise. . Supposing the increase of trade was not to bear a proportion to the in- crease of the ports, would it not, nevertheless, increase the establishment to secure the revenue ? — I think it would have that effect ; for though in some ports, which may be inferior in their degree as to trade, such offi- ciators migln be employed as I have mentioned before ; yet, that in large ports, it would be necessary to have a constant establishment. Would it not be necessary to have a constant permanent establishment at the port of Liverpool, for example, provided that port was prepared 1 r Indian importation, without reference to the extent of that importation ? — I should much question whether it would ; because the goods coming from the East Indies, if you exclude tea, are so veiy few in the excise, that it narrows, our interest in it very much indeed ; coffee, there is very h tie impoited from the East ndies, in proportion to the coffee trade; wine is imported from the East Indies only as carried there to be improved in its quality ; EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 339 quality ; rum, I believe, is the growth of the country, but in very small RobertKicholas, quantities, and arrack; the duties on coffee, I think, are sixpence a pound, of course that cannot be a very great object ; the duty on arrack, I think, *- is thirteen shillings and ninepencc, where it is under proof, which it always is ; I do not know an instance where it comes above proof; and the wine which is carried there for improvement, is not much, and of course not much an object of smuggling; I do not think any smuggler would risk a pipe of Madeira, that he would venture so great a risk. Supposing the trade from the East- Indies to be opened to the port o* Liverpool, or any of the other ports which are enumerated, and suppose that the effect of that were to be affording a means of fraudulent importa- tion of tea, have you considered whether the approach as to these different ports would or would not afford apt means for the smuggling that tea on shore, before the arrival of the vessel at the port ? — I think there would be great smuggling when the Indian ships approached this country. Supposing the trade to be opened, not only to the ports specified by your Board, but to be opened generally to the out-ports of the kingdom, have you considered at all what the additional establishment would be to protect the revenue against smuggling ? — The Board has not considered that ; it would be time enough to do it whenever those ports were al- lowed, and it must be done on the reports of officers competent to form a judgment. Have you had any opportunity of considering, or has your consideration been directed to the probable increase of establishment for exportation or importation generally, supposing all the ports to be open ? — We never discussed the subject in the Board individually; in considering the sub- ject, I have thought, if all the ports were open, it must proportionably increase the establishment.; our establishment consists of a water-guard, in which I might include cutters, of which there are now only eight ; these cutters would be by no means enough, nothing like enough, for the pro- tection of the trade against smuggling. You cannot tell, from the present state of your information, what addi- tional number of cutters miglit be required ? — No, I cannot; I think it would be desirable that every India fleet should be attended by cutters the moment they come into the cutters' limits ; we have very few cutters ; the Customs have a great many ; I think a cutter should attend an India- man from his entering the Channel, if it were possible, into .he port of delivery. 2X2 If S'10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE RoherfMchoias, ^ V ou suppose the trade to come home in detached ships, and to the E q. different ports of the kiogdom, must not the cutters, to attend them, be ^ — -j- increased in proportion ? — Yes, I think they must. Should you think it safe to t^ust a single ship of 500 tons burthen, navigating in the British seas, either to Hull, Liverpool, or Bristol, with- out an attendant cutter to secure against smuggling ? — I should not think it would ; it would be desirable that a cutter should attend one India ship, or an India fleet, upon its arrival to any one of the ports. lias your consideration been drawn to the East-India produce being brought home in united fleets, as it is now to the port of London, or has it been directed to the bringing home that produce by individual adventurers in such way as they may think fit ? — We have not, as a Board, considered any of the questions as embracing that view of the subject. You did not consider any of the questions put to you by the Treasury as embracing that object ? — No, we did not. Did you consider any of the questions put to you as necessarily limiting your consideration to certain ports, or did you consider them as referable to a general opening of all the ports of the kingdom ? — I conceive that it was our duty to recommend such ports as were more fit than others to be licensed or to be allowed. That you considered your duty as resulting from your examination into the subject ? — Yes. I am to understand it was the Board which suggested the limitation, and not the questions put to the Board ? — The particular question which that may have answered was suggested by the government as one of the ques- tions from the India Board, I apprehend ; and our answer was given, re- commending those ports which we thought would be most fit for receive ing the goods. Kasyour consideration of the subject been limited to England, or has it extended to Scotland or to Ireland ? — Certainly, I have considered the. subject with a view to the coast of Scotland, and I think in that respect it would be very destructive indeed to the revenue, if from any circum- stances they were permitted to go north about ; as a Board, we think that it would be -ery prejudicial ;. we have often discussed it. If EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 341 If there was an importation allowed where the owner of the vessel or RohertNichohis, of the cargo had it in his power to direct the ship to any mode of naviga- Esq. tion, should you think that the risk of smuggling was considerably in- ^ ,, * creased by that circumstance ? — I should think it would if the ship wan- dered from its course, which it might certainly from necessity on many occasions be obliged to do ; it might be very unfortunate for the revenue, if in its course from India, it were to land and deposit its goods, in all probability the manifest act might be broken through, and the goods might be smuggled into this country by other ships; also when they come to this country, the greater line of coast the merchant passes, the greater will be the facility of smuggling out of the ship, and defrauding t he revenue. Do you consider, that if a merchant were to direct his vessel to traverse the western coast of Scotland, there would be a great increased facility of smuggling East- India goods and teas into the islands on that coast?--! think there would, for the reason I gave in my last answer. Would that be increased if the direction were to go north about ? — Certainly. Supposing then the port of Hull to be one of the ports to which im- portation is extended, do you consider that from the circumstance of adopting a navigation round the western part of Scotland, and north: about, or through the Pentland Firth, and thence by the mouths of the Murray Fi th, the Firth of Tay, and the Firth of Forth, the risk would be considerably increased ? — I think it would ; I am not acquainted with that coast at all ; but I go upon the principle, the more coast the ship traverses, the more opportunities it has of unloading its goods, or being met and having the goods taken out of it. If they came round by Ireland, would not the facility be greatly in- er^a^ed ? — I think it would. Ha^e you thought, or has your attention been directed to any system of regulation by which the importing merchant could be prevented from adopting that course of navigation which has been described ? — I should ■ suppose, that if the legislature were to pass a manifest act, obliging the course to be direct from India to this country, without touching at any port till it arrived at its port of delivery, and declaring that going north about, or going to iny coast out of the line of that navigation, would be . an infringement uf the manifest act ; that would be useful, . You 342 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Nicholas, You think it would be necessary that in importing goods from India to Esq. the port of Hull, the regulations of the manifest act should prohibit the 1 y — — ' circuitous voyage ? — Yes, I think so, certainly. Have you had an opportunity of informing yourself with respect to any facts relative to the port of Greenock, and the importation into that port ? — No, I have not. Do you understand that the ordinary and common navigation to the port of Liverpool, in coming from St. Helena or Madeira, is round by the north of Ireland or through St. George's Channel ? — I do not know which line of approach is used. Any of the reports you have made, or any opinion you have formed, is without reference to the navigation being by St. George's Channel, or by the other course ? — Certainly we consider it as the port is usually ap- proached. I apprehend they have one line which they prefer to another. Can you give any general idea, or have you formed any general com- putation of the probable increased expense of establishment, considering it first as referable to the importation to the enumerated ports, and secondly, as referrlble to general importation to all the ports of the kingdom ? — It has rather been the opinion of the Board of Excise, that the increase of establishment would not be large, and they have reported so, but we have not at all anticipated that question ; that was not referred to us, and our business is so immense, that till it is, it would be premature perhaps. (Examined by the Committee.) Are not you of opinion, that there are circumstances in relation to the ports and places in the English Channel, and the habits of the people resident on its coasts, that renders the navigation from the Land's End to the port of London more open to smuggling and illicit trade, than that of St. George's and the Bristol Channels ? — I think that the passage from the entrance to the Bristol Channel to the port of London has been found the most hazardous as to tea and East-India articles, because the d fferent sea- ports near it are many of them watering places, and where those arti- cles, which are of a light nature, may be more easily shifted from the ship 4 and smuggled on shore. Have not the people on those coasts been more trained to the habits of defrauding the revenue than those people who reside upon the coasts of the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 343 the Irish and Bristol Channels ? — I have no knowledge of the subject more Robert Nicholas, than that a great number of smuggling cases have arisen on the coasts of Ivq. Kent and Sussex, and entering the port of London. Do not you know that in the navigation of the British Channel, in con- sequence of rocks and shoals, no large vessel can approach either the En- glish or Welch coast without the imminent hazard of being shipwrecked ? — I think they could not ; but in answering the question, I would say -hat that large vessel might be met with by small craft, which might unload these goods and favour smuggling. Are not you aware that it is the present practice to place officers, both of the Excise and Customs, on board all ships immediately on their arrival in King Road before they come to the narrow part of the navigation to Bris- tol which you have described ? — I believe it is. Is not the rapidity of the tide in the narrow course of the Avon, from King Road to Bristol, so great as to render it unsafe for vessels to pass at night, and to oblige vessels to pass with such celerity as to preclude all con- venience of intercourse with the shore by boats? — I have no knowledge of that circumstance j I do not know the river navigation there enough to answer it. Have you observed that the mud banks of that river are so gradually sloping as to oblige large vessels, in all places, to keep in the middle of the Channel, at too great a distance to throw any package on shore? — I have. In point of fact, do you know of any seizure made of goods attempted to be smuggled, or fraudulently landed, between King Road and the docks at Bristol ? — I do not remember any particular cases ; but i have no doubt that such things have occurred. The place alluded to is between King Poad and the entrance of the docks? — I cannot say that I have any knowledge on that point; I could busfov-e referred to the seizure books, if I had expected to be asked the question. Have you not seen the port of Bristol since the formation of the new docks ?— Never. If a person is desirous of smuggling tea, and other Chinese and East- India 344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert-Nicholas, India commodities in an extensive manner, and so as to give direction to Esq. his vessel to take a particular voyage before its leaving India or China, v v > which might be necessary in the event of the vessel being ordered to go north about, is it not likely that that person would employ a foreign ship which is not liable to any restraint in visiting China, rather than a British ship liable to restrictions, and liable to penalties in the voyage home, to which the foreign ship is not subjected ? — I have not any opinion of that, in my office, which would be the most probable ; but I should think a British merchant, meaning honestly, would employ a British ship ; if he means to smuggle, I think he would take a foreign ship. Are you of opinion that many East Indian and Chinese commodities have been smuggled from foreign ships arriving in this country ? — I think not particularly from foreign ships. Is there any particular facility in smuggling on board a British ship, which does not belong to a foreign ship ? — Not that I know of, except that the crew of a foreign ship would be very ignorant of our coast; per- haps there might be that difference, but I know of no other; I should suppose one ship w iuld smuggle on the English coast as well as another, whether foreign or Biitish. Are you aware that a great many vessels have arrived in this country from America, the m.sters and crews of which have been in the habit of coming to Liverpool, many years together, and therefore must be well acquainted with the coast, and have the means of conducting any smug- gling operation in this country ? — I am aware that American vessels have arrived at Liverpool ; I have understood so. Then if there have been many American vessels arrived in this country, and if, as. you have stated in a former answer, there has been no great amount of smuggling from those foreign vessels, although equal facilities exist in smuggling from foreign vessels as from British ships, have the goodness to acquamt the Committee on what grounds you think that any considerable smuggling is likely to ari:>e in consequence of opening the India trade, as proposed, to the out-ports generally? — I think that, par- ticularly in the event of peace, the vessels whether English or foreign would in all probability land their goods on some foreign station, and that then from that station they might be smuggled into England, unless it was a more profitable speculation to sell or destroy even the ship itself. Your apprehension of smuggling relates more to a state of peace than of EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 345 of war ? — No, I cannot exclude the prospect of peace in the answer; Ruber lNicholas s but I think in either case there would be smuggling, but there would be £sq» much more smuggling in time of peace. I think the permment duties * -y ; alone will be a temptation to smuggling, and that the war duties and the permanent duties produce a greater impulse upon the human mind to smuggle in time of war. You are no doubt aware, that in the event of a British vessel clearing out from India to a Biitish port, heavy penalties would attach to her going to a port different to that for which she cleared, while in the event of a foreign vessel going from India to any foreign port, no penalty would attach ; is it not probable, therefore, that a person disposed to land Indian and Chinese commodities in the foreign ports, in the manner stated in the answer, would prefer to employ a foreign rather than a Bri- tish ship, and that, in point of fact, the opening of the trade to India, as proposed, could have no reference to such a state of things ? — I should think a merchant might prefer a foreign ship on that account, as being free from the restrictions of any law, such as the manifest act, or any other which might attach upon a British ship. The principal danger which you appear to apprehend, arises from the consideration that depots of tea, and other commodities liable to heavy duties, might be formed in Gottenbnrgh, or ports on the coast of France, for the purpose of being smuggled into this country ; as those depots can be formed in spite of any regulation that may be adapted in this country, do you imagine that the opening of the India and China trade can, by any possibility, have the least effect upon the formation of such depots, since the British vessel would be liable to seizure, and not admitted into the ports of China, and the foreign vessel would be admitted into the ports of China, and not be liable to any question in her voyage from China or India to the ports of this country ? — I should imagine that a difference would arise as to the time, whether it were in a time of peace or a time of war 5 in time of war, one cannot suppose the possibility upon which the question is put, but in time of peace, I should suppose those depots would be formed to be applied to as well by foreign as by British ships. If a person were desirous at this moment to engage in the smuggling of tea, would he not prefer to employ a Swedish ship to convey that tea to Gottenburgh, for the purpose of beine conveyed again in smaller vessels to this country, rather than to employ a British vessel, and to take the chance of all the smuggling on her voyage north about, which has been 2 Y described v_ 346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE RobertXicholas, described in the former an wer ? — I conceive this would be a question Esq. more for the consideration of the Commissioners of the Customs than of ^ > myself. What article in the import from India and China, do you conceive to be most likely to be smuggled ? — Tea, unquestionably, so far as it comes within my knowledge. On the supposition that tea were prohibited entirely being brought in private vessels from India, do you conceive that it would be likely that any considerable quantity of tea would be smuggled in the private vessels from India ? — I should think there would, on the general principle that a very high dutied article will cause a temptation. If you were assured that a very considerable temptation to smuggle tea from Gcttenburgh and from America did exist; and since you have said that no large quantity of tea has been smuggled by foreign ships from those countries, notwithstanding the high temptation, do you not think it likely that restrictions might be imposed sufficient to prevent any consi- derable smuggling of tea in British ships from India? — The time I have spoken to, is to the extent of nearly the whole war ; the country has been at war so many years, my answers have gone to a state of war : I conceive that i he immense value of tea, as an article for smuggling, would produce of itself agreat deal of smuggling, and that that would increase in time of peace ; that the Americans, and people of other countries, would be the carriers of it for the profit attending it; and that the English carrier •would risk the highest penalties of the manifest act, or any other act that might impose a penalty, to make that profit. On the supposition that the penalty attaching upon a vessel of 350 tons measurement, was the confiscation of the ship and cargo upon any teas being found on board, would you think it worth any merchant's while to enter upon a smuggling adventure from India, for any prospect of . d vantage he c mid obtain from such a measure ? — The question which is put appetrs to me to depend upon a calculation between the value of the ship and its freight, whether included in the manifest or not, and penalties which the infiingement of the law might occasion to the com- mander or proprietor, and the parties concerned; if the result of that calculation were profitable, I should think that the risk would be in- curred. It has happened so frequently, from my experience, in matters of se zure. Are e — v— EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 547 Are you aware that in the report of the Board of Excise, in answer to RobcrtNicholas, the fourth question, it is stared " in the event of peace it does not appear Esq. that the danger of smuggling would he materially enhanced as far as it v regards the direct trade with China or India in British vessels, but great opportunities would be given for those of America to introduce teas and other articles privately ; and by the ships of both countries such goods might be lodged in places of deposit on the Continent, or in the islands* for smuggling in small craft into this country ;" and that the apprehen- sion entertained by that Board, appears therefore to be principally direct- ed to the smuggling by foreign vessels ? — I am perfectly aware of that being in the Bo.ird's report, though my name is not to it, I perfectly as- sented to that report, and was present in fact at the ordering, and after- wards at the reading of that report ; the second report 1 was not present at, I was then out of attendance, but I entirely concur in the opinions of each of those reports. Are you not of opinion, that the extent of smuggling will depend considerably upon the means of concealment of the goods after they are conveyed from the vessel ? — I can imagine the smuggling out at sea to be much larger than the smuggling near the land ; and I should suppose that the goods which can be the easiest concealed, will be the soonest taken. Do not you therefore imagine, that in a thinly populated country, where every transaction is easily observed, and where the absence even of a boatman or his boat might be instantly noticed, these circumstances would prevent smuggling from taking place to any considerable extent in such a district ? — I. think not ; on the coast of Cornwall, and perhaps on the coast of Wales, there are subterraneous receptacles which have been formed by the smugglers ; caves which they frequent but do not live in, and where they deposit smuggled goods ; and they are persons living at sea the greater part of their time, not on shore, so as to be missed from, their villages as inhabitants. Do not the easy means of disposal of smuggled goods afforded in Lon- don and the neighbourhood, form a considerable inducement and facility to smugglers, wh;ch could not be expected to exist in any other part of the kingdom ? — Certainly ; in a great town like this, there will be a larger vent for articles ; but if you can imagine a ship's smuggled freight to be landed on any of the western coasts, i will an;wer for it, it will be dis- persed throughout the country by persons who distribute it wherever they suppose it to be wanted ; it is dispersed as much in the country as in Lon- 2 Y 2 don.; ^48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OV THE Rtocrt Nicholas, don : I do not conceive, except as to its being a greater town than any other, it is more favoured, as to smuggling, than any other; goods re- **■ — v— landed on retired spots of the coast, and dispersed over the country by that skill which the distresses of mankind induce them to exercise. You have stated, that the most dangerous article in smuggling is tea, and that a very considerable apprehension is entertained by you, of large quantities being smuggled in consequence of vessels going north about ; do you conceive it possible in such a district of country, as you appre- hend the tea must therefore be landed in, and where it is imagined it is impossible it could be consumed, a very great difficulty would arise in its disposal, and very great risk of its being seized, so as in fact very much to check any such illicit trade ? — I meant my last answer to go to spirits ; I do not know as to tea, what the effect would be. Would it be more difficult to convey tea than brandy? — I should think it would ; that spirits would go in casks obviously used in the country, and might not be supposed to be smuggled goods ; but a person carrying parcels of tea, it would naturally raise a question in a public house, or any other place, what it was the man was carrying.- In cases of seizure, when no fraud is presumable, but some offence from ignorance or negligence has been committed against the law, have the goodness to state in what manner the Board acts ? — The Board are always desirous of distinguishing between an intentional act of fraud and a breach of the law ; and a breach of the law may be, not conforming to regulations, not putting proper marks to agree with the ship's books, many of those things may be an infringement of regulations, which are distinguishable from positively fraudulent attempts or acts to cheat the revenue. When it proceeds from ignorance or negligence perfectly well esta- blished, is the vessel and goods delivered back, or are they liable even in such cases to forfeiture, or is the owner liable to some fine ? — It is very seldom that large vessels are detained, the exciseable articles are not of that value to induce us to prosecute the vessel in the Exchequer; it has happened, but we do not forfeit a vessel for some very slight article being smuggled into the country, or being either liable to confiscation from not having its proper mark, or not being reported, we go to the article and not to the ship, if we can do it ; we distinguish between what is a criminal act and a breach of the law. If EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 3-1Q If a mistake is committed in ignorance or some neglect, does not it Jiobei'/Nicholar, carry with it some punishment, even where it is admitted no fraud is in- hsq. tended ?— Where there are breaches of regulations, in some cases there ^— ■ — t ought to be punishment. There is unquestionably, in many cases, a penalty taken, but the penalty is often mitigated according to circum- stances. You have stated, that a good deal of the risk to the revenue depends upon the extent of the line of coast which a ship has to pass coming to its port of delivery ; do not you think that a port situate as the port of Plymouth is, provided all the accommodation on shore of legal quays and ports were such as are suitable to the Excise and Customs, better si- tuated as a port for the import and export of Indian commodities ? — I think it is. Are not the duties on tea now higher than they ever where ? — Yes, they are. Do you conceive that there is at present much smuggling of tea, the temptation being so great ? — The Board have said in their report there is not much smuggling in tea of late, but there have been particular in- stances of considerable quantities being smuggled ; there was a great deal smuggled in the East-India ships passing through the Downs, last year, and seized by the Lively, Captain Lilburn. To what causes do you attribute this small degree of smuggling, not- withstanding the temptation is so high ? — I really cannot answer to what causes it is to be attributed, it does not fall within my situation as a com- missioner of Excise to account for it : whether there may be countries to which it may be carried, from whence it may not be easily brought here ; but of late there has not been much smuggling of tea ; I should rather conceive it is owing to the war, preventing access to and from these countries. To what period do you go back, when you speak of lately ? — Three or four years. You conceive the smuggling has considerably decreased within three or four years ? — I think it has, in tea. Do you think that if ships from India of 350 tons buthen, were ad- mitted to some of the out-ports, but not with tea, there would during the 350 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Nicholas, the war be a considerable increase of smuggling of tea ? — Yes ; I think Esq. inasmuch as there would be a greater vent for it, by there being more v ™ ports open, and more ships employed. You do not think the circumstances of the war, to whii li vou have al- luded, would sufficiently restrain it in that case? — The circumstances of the war would operate the same, only it would operate upon an extended field for smuggling. When you speak of the war, you mean to speak of a state of thing? in. which no fiiendly or neutral ports are open for vessels, nor bimply the cir- cumstance of our war with Fiance ? — Certainly. Then supposing us to continue at war with France, and some of the states in the north of Europe to be friendly, and therefore permitted to trade with India, and their ports perfectly open ; do not you conceive that the ships of those states would have at least an equal facility of smuggling tea with the British ships? — Yes, I shoud think they would. Then do not you consider that the circumstance of British sh'ps being absolutely prohibited from having tea on boiid under the penalty of the confiscation of the ship and cargo, the ships moreover employed in the trade being limited to 350 tons at the least, would lender 11 much more disadvantageous to smuggle from those vessels than from those of fo- reigners ? — 1 think it must be mure disadvantageous. When the smuggling of tea prevailed, did it not chiefly take place from ships at sea, and not in port ? — I have no knowledge of where the greater smuggling has happened, whether out at sea, or within any legal quay or dock; I have never compared it, or in my own m.nd considered where the greater was, but I should think at sea. Would it not be extremely easy to smuggle tea from a small f.reign vessel permitted bv law to have tea on board and to appioach within a short distance of the coast ? — A small foreign vessel would, from its faci- lities, be more likely to smuggle than a large foreign vessel. Or than any British vessel ? — Or than any British vessel. Then supposing the temptations to smuggle tea to be very high, and those three modes of smuggling to exist ; namely, smuggling from the Company's ships ; the smuggling referred to in the late questions from fo- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 351 Tcign private ships; and smuggling by re-landing goods upon which the Robert Nicholas^ drawback is obtained ; would not those three modes of smuggling be per- Esq. fectly sufficient to answer the demands for smuggled tea, without any > v » further opening of the British trade ? — I dare say they would. Then is the Committee to understand it as your opinion, that in time of peace, when all those facilities would be the greatest, the difference between the smuggling that would take place in the case supposed in the last question, and in case of adding to those facilities, the proposed exien- sion of the trade in other Indian and Chinese goods than tea, to some of the out-ports, would be very considerable ? — In time of peace, I think, it is perfectly probable and likely that the ninety per cent, upon tea may not continue : there are so many things to vary the subject in time of peace, that it is out of my power to form an opinion upon them ; if the tea be- came an article not paying so high a duty as it does now, it must operate very considerably ; and I have no doubt that and many other duties, which form the means of the country at present, will be necessarily lowered, more or less, according to sound policy. I think any increase of trade would give an opening to more smuggling, and occasion more smuggling; and that supposing the duties to continue high, it would be a very great temptation ; if the duties were lower, it would vary my opinion ; I should conceive that the opening of the ports ought to produce, and may produce, an increase of trade and shipping; and that if that circumstance should produce an increase of trade and shipping, that will produce an increase of smuggling. . Taking the fact to be, that the importation of tea in private ships shali be absolutely prohibited under the severest penalty of the law, will not tea be an article which it will be most dangerous to smuggle ? — I think it will ; the payment of the tea duty amounts to between three and four mil- lions, and forms so great a part of the duties of excise from Indian goods, that when the excise duty on tea is excluded, I do not think the other excise duties are Ji 100,000, or three parts of JflOO.OOO, from the articles remaining chargeable after the tea is taken out; therefore what I say of the danger, arises from a view to risk and forfeitures on breach of regu- lations, from the information I may po sess from any officer. Taking for instance the article of tobacco, is there not a greater risk of smuggling than there would be of rea ? — I do not think there is a great deal of tobacco smuggled, I should suppose tea was a much more im- portant subject. Supposing 355 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE RobertNicliolas, Supposing it to be made unlawful for any British vessel, coming from Esq. the East- Indies, to have tea on board, and that the confiscation of the * v ' ship and cargo should ensue, would not that be a penalty higher than any which now attaches to any other article, on which there is a duty of excise, and which could be enforced through so great a range of voyage ? — The excise have a great number of articles which, when any fraudulent transaction attends them, both the vessel, or the cart, or waggon, or what- ever carries them, is liable to confiscation. It would not be a new thing in the excise ; and the Board would have to mitig ie, discretional!)', a very high penalty on account of tea, as they would on account of tobacco, and vice versa ; and the necessity of enforcing the penalty to its full amount, would rather arise from its appearing to the Board of Excise to be the opinion of the legislature that we should enforce it (if we could understand from the wording of the act that such was the intention of the legislature) and we should only confiscate the ship, and prosecute upon the bond for one chest of tea, under the idea that it wis necessary for the good of this country, in a commercial light, that we should pu- nish as much for one chest of tea as we should tor 500 ; but if it ap- peared tha' it was brought with a criminal intention to smuggle, I think we should not relax. 1 have considered the manifest act in many in- stances as oppressive upon the captains from China for many years ; but 1 should think, on the opening of a trade like this, it might be necessary to carry it into effect. Would not this be an act of more plain evasion of the law than many occurring under the manifest act, and where the act has not been en- forced ? — 1 know, hardly, any shade of difference between the one and the other. The law is contravened if the manifest mentions a few chests more or less than there are on board ; but doe^ it make no distinction whether it is one or one hundred chests ? — If it were an uld law, or an old regulation, it might make some difference ; but if it is a new law to prevent increased occasions of smuggling, it would become the Revenue Boards not to be so lenient as they have been. Supposing a law to take place, to be rigidly enforced, do you think it would have a great effect in preventing this branch of smuggling ? — I do not think alone it would prevent smuggling; but I think it would be the greatest prevention of smuggling of any thing, except one which I have suggested in another place. I think the taking away the privilege ton- nage and the Manifest Act, both, would be almost the only means that woukt EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. S5S would preserve the revenue from smuggling; every thing else would be RobcrtXicholas, subordinate. Esq. Would not all the measures contemplated in your answer at least add to the increased difficulty of smuggling in Bri.ish ships, as compared with foreigneis? — They would certainly, because the foieign ships would not be bound by our Jaws in many cases. In your opinion are not smugglers more induced by the temptation of high profit than by the fear of risk, especially as often the smuggler may not be the owner of the ship ? — I think they are. Having stated that the opening of the trade to the out ports may naturally be expected to produce an increase of trade, would not that increase of trade produce such a corresponding increase of revenue as wou'd be likely to counterbalance the additional charge of collection, and any defalcation that might arise from increased smuggling ? — At the first blush it seems to carry an idea that it would, both in my mind, and probably other men's minds ; but I think there will be a great increase of smuggling, and that therefore that increase of smuggling will counteract all the increase of revenue that may arise, and even go to affect the expense of the establishment. Has the increase of smuggling borne any proportion to the increase of revenue of late upon any article whatever ? — I think not; but the greatest effect of that act was that of the commutation act ; that produced an astonishing effect certainly upon smuggling. That was the cause of an increase of revenue, without an increase of smuggling ?— Certainly. You have stated that smuggling might take place out of vessels, by persons not the owners of the vessels, under the penalties which have been already stated ; is it not likely that the owner of the vessel would employ captains and officers whom he conceived to be vigilant and jealous in preventing cn uiggling ? — I have no doubt that he would employ the most honest and trust worthy men that he could, if he was liable in his fortune for the loss by the conduct of his officers being the reverse of that character. In point of fact, nre you aware of any other description of vessels out ef which so much smuggling has taken place as out of the ships of the 2 Z East- 354 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SobertNicholas, East-India Company ?-— In my own department, I think of the captain'* Esq. stores, and things of that sort, there is more smuggling from East-India * y ' ships than from most other vessels. You have stated, also, that any irregularity arising from ignorance or negligence is always followed by punishment, even when no fraud can be supposed to attach to the owners of the ship ; has any punishment in any instance been attached to the East-India Company, as owners of the ship, or as proprietors of other goods on board the same vessel, in consequence of any goods smuggled in their ships ? : — No, I think not; I am unable to enumerate cases of that sort ; the common prosecution is againsr the co nmander of the vessel for the smuggling transaction ; that is generally the case, that comes before us under the manifest act. Do not you remember a late instance, in which the Marquis of Ely Indiaman, with her cargo, was attached in a port in Ireland, on account of some private smuggling on board that vessel ? — I am not aware of any transact. on of the kind, as happening in Ireland; we have no con- nection with the Irish Board of Revenue, I could only know it in conse- quence of seeing it in the newspaper. I beg to observe, that I did not mean to s y that every breach of the law was punished, for it is in the discretion of the Board to prosecute or not ; and that we do, generally, in all cases under the malt laws, in which there are numerous breaches of regulation, and upon whkh if we did not put some penalty, they would be practiced by low people ; but we do not scarcely ever seek the whole penalty, and we understand the legislature has given us a limit, not al- ways to be acted up to; for was that done, it would make the excise laws, which are heavy in penalties, intolerable ; but that we may exercise a fair and honourable discretion. Do you mean to say, that in any case where a deviation from positive law has taken place, there is no punishment follows ? — The legislature sortie years ago, in order to give the Board of Excise a power of restoiing the article itself, passed a very short law enabling us to name a compen- sation fine, upon which the article itself might be given up, or the for- feiture lessened, which is often acted upon. In all cases there is a forfeiture, or a confiscation of the goods ? — No, in very many cases indeed the forfeiture is remitted, and the goods re- stored. Without any penalty ? — Without any thing more than the payment of expences : EAST-1NDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 355 expenses : I am in the habit of writing every day, " restore on payment UobertXkhoLu, of duty and expenses." Esq. [The Witness withdrew. Adjourned till to-morrow, 1 1 o'clock. Veneris, 23° die Aprilis 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. — > f JOHN VIVIAN, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. JacksonJ] You are solicitor, I believe, to the Excise ? — I am. How long have you been connected with the Excise ? — Seven and John Vivian, twenty years. Esq. Considering the extent of the trade and the present considerable rate of duties, has the smuggling of teas or of East-India goods, upon the whole, taken place, to any considerable extent, within the last year, under the present system of conducting the East-India and China trade ? — I ap- prehend not to any very considerable extent; it has not come to our knowledge at least. -v- J t>" Do you consider it as great, in proportion to the quantities brought into legal consumption ? — I should apprehend not ; certainly the quantity of tea smuggled of late years, has by no means been so much as it formerly was. To what period do you allude, when you say formerly ? — A great many years ago, before the commutation act : we have had instances of smuggling of late years, but I do not remember above five or six different ships, out of which any considerable quantity has been smuggled. Do you mean to say that it has ■ less within the last five or six years, 2 ZJ2 ■ ' than 356 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, than during the preceding periods, since the commutation act ; or that Esq. since the commutation act it has been somewhat about what it has been * .i n -y. » within the last five or six years? — I do not apprehend, generally, that smuggling has been greater within the last five or six years, than it had been Tor several years previously j it is not an article that has been upon the increase. In the event of the import trade from India and the Eastern seas being open to the out-ports generally, would the danger of smuggling be in- creased, and in what degree ? — I apprehend it must of necessity increase, but the degree of increase it is impossible to form a conjecture on ; my reason for thinking it must increase, is this, that there would not only be a much greater number of ships from whence the smuggling would take place, but there must also be a much greater number of ports of desti- nation ; those ports possibly might not be all equally well guarded, nor would it be in the power of- revenue officers, perhaps, to ascertain the time when those ships might be expected, as nearly as they are enabled to do in the present course of the East-India trade. Do you apprehend,' from the circumstances you hai e stated, or from other circumstances, that the apprehended increase of smuggling would be serious and considerable ? — I should think so. Would there be any material distinction, as to the degree of that danger in time of war or peace, and if you think so, state them separately ? — I should think that there would be more in time of peace than in time of war, because in time of peace there is a greater extent of coast which can become the place of deposit of those articles ; for though at present Guernsey and Jersey (which were formerly places of deposit) are by modern acts of Parliament under great restrictions, which very much indeed check the importation from thence, yet' those Acts of Parliament would become, I apprehend, in a considerable degree weakened in their force in time of peace, because then the neighbouring coa-t of France would afford as convenient a place ot deposit, nearly, as the islands of Guernsey and Jersey themselves ; and in addition to that, the persons by whom the smuggling is conducted (the seamen) are now very much employed in the navy ; but they will, I piesume, return to their ancient courses when at liberty. Can you name any port which, in your judgment, would be as safe for the_ revenue as that of London, for the importation of East-India- and Chinese commodities ? — I apprehend none. If EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 557 If such import trane be: permitted to the out-ports, would the security John Vivian, of the revenue require that such ports should be limited, and if so, to Esq. which ports would you recommend such import trade to be limited ? — The Y— more the ports were limited, the more advantageous to the revenue, I apprehend ; but I am not prepared to state which ports would be entitled to the preference overothers ; much of that would depend upon securities to be provided for those ports, such as docks surrounded by walls, and other circumstances, which perhaps at present do not exist. Can you state the grounds upon which the ports of Bristol, Liverpool, Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Hull, have been recommended in preference bv the Commissioners in their Report? — I cannot answer that question; I an unacquainted with their motives, otherwise than by a vague conjecture. Do you know what other ports-at present, besides those mentioned, of Liverpool, Bristol, Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Hull, are allowed to warehouse goods upon the bonding system at present ? — They are very numerous, but I am not prepared to state them ; there is a list of them, I apprehend, delivered in to the Committee. Is not the entrance into Liverpool from the west of great length, and for the most part open r — My observations did not extend to the entrance of the port, but were confined to the port itself, the docks. Are not the docks of that port open on all sides, and surrounded with shops, warehouses, public-h mses, and other buildings ? — At the time I saw them they were ; (it was aboi-t, I believe, eight or ten years ago,) and most conveniently indeed circumstanced for smuggling ; it is impos- sible to conceive any thing better adapted tor smuggling goods on shore from the ships in the docks, than those shops and public-houses and cellars of all descriptions were. Do you regard Liverpool as thus exposed, no f withstanding the care of the tides-men on shoie, and the vigilance of the nightly watch ? — If the officers were all to do their duty it would be one thing ; but in the way in which otficeis do discharge their duty, I should think that the revenue must of necessity be very insecure there in the state I saw the port about ten years ago. From any knowledge which von possess, have you reason to think that the port of Liverpool is materially altered, so as to have very much • decreased 358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, decreased that danger? — From what I heard last year it is not ; there was Esq, a bill before I arliament last year* in which it was attempted to have docks i v ) with walls, or something- of that sort, which I understood had mis- carried. I, not the passage up the Bristol Channel, such as to afford opportunities for landing goods clandestinely, and especially for the la-t twenty miles or it ? — Certainly it is; I am very well acquainted with that port. Does not, in consequence of the late alterations, the shipping lie afloat there in the mi.lst of the city, without any other security than the locking of the hatchways ? — And the superintendence of the officers ; the revenue derives no security from the locking ot the hatchways, until they approach the new works, the entrance basin ; but there is a considerable extent of river below that, I should think not less than possibly three or four miles, before you come to the open sea. Do you regard the port of Bristol, upon the whole, as a port exposed much to the danger of smuggling ? — In its present state undoubtedly it is. Can you say whether either the ports of Plymouth, Portsmouth, or Dover, are at present secure ports for the revenue, always looking to the proposition of the trade being opened to the East-Indies, that is to say, from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter ? — I should think Plymouth a very insecure port, because, in addition to other circumstances of the ships of war lying there, which will take off any quantity of smuggled goods they can possibly procure ; indeed it formerly was the practice to supply the fleet, bv sending out a vessel, I mean many years ago, before the commence- ment of my official life ; but I suppose the practice may have existed since ; it was their practice to send vessels over to Guernsey or Jersey to supply the fleet ; and there was a signal made of their approach : I knew a o-entleman who had the command of one of those vessels on one trip, this was before 1 was solicitor of excise ; I know for a great many years that sort of practice to have prevailed, the ships of war regularly supplying themselves with every species of smuggled goods that they want. Supposing then a freedom of trade about to be granted to the out- ports, in East India and Chinese commodities, would you regard Plymouth as EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 359 as a port extremely dangerous to the safety of the revenue ? — Very much John Vivian, so indeed, I should think. E q Looking to the same proposition of an open trade, would vou regard Portsmouth as a safe poit to the revenue ? — The observations upon the one port, I think equally applicable to the other, with this difference, that Plymouth has at present in its neighbourhood two village-, called Kingston and Cawsand, which in all times I believe have been inha- bited bv none but >mugg'ers, at least nineteen out ot twenty ; I b lieve that every house is occupied by smugglers ; there is no place in the king- dom that carries on the smuggling to the extent that they have been in the habit of doing;. -y a- Would you regard, looking to the circumstances which you have described with re pect to the port of Plymouth, that of Portsmouth also, as a port extiemely dangerous to the revenue, un Her the circumstances of an open trade from India and the Chinese seas? — I know no material difference between the two ports, except the proximity of Kingston and Cawsand. Los king- to the same circumstances of an open trade, would you re- gard Dover as a port safe tor the revenue ? — I should think Dover could not be a safe port, in the neighbourhood of the smuggling towns upon that coast, such as Folkestone and Deal. Would you not, upon the whole, under the circumstances of an open trade, consider Dover as an extremely dangerous port r — I should think so. Is not the run to Hull from the Channel nearlv equivalent to the r.avi- gation up the river Thames r — I am not prepared lo answer that question ; I have seen it, but I cannot spenk with any degree of precision ; it cer- tainly is a long river, and not very broad ; it is as bmnd nearly as the Thames. I never saw the entrance of theHumber; I have seen it, up in the neighbourhood of Hull. From any means you have had of forming an opinion, can you say that there is not great danger of smuggling in the Hvinber ? — No greater danger than there is in other places similarly circumstanced ; rivers are of course ail dangerous tor smuggling. Do you mean to say, that as a river it would be highly dangerous as other «— — v 260 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE .John Vivian, other rivers are, and of course dependent upon the quantum of its guard I Esq. — Of course it must. If ships were permitted from the East-Indies to pass down the north of Scotland, in what way, in your opinion, would that circumstance affect the revenue ? — Very much indeed, I should apprehend ; I should think it would expose it to very great danger. If they were to come round Ireland, would not that be a very dange- rous passage to the revenue ? — The more extent of coast they traverse, of course the more danger there is of smuggling. Can any thing prevent great and serious danger but numerous additi- onal and expensive establishments, looking to such a line of coast as that? — It would certainly require a very considerable addition to the water guard, very great indeed; and I do not apprehend that any very great reliance could be placed even upon that increase. State why you think that description of increase would not be entirely to be relied upon ? — Because it is scarcely possible to have such an increase of vessels ; it is indeed within the scale of possibility to have a thousand vessels ; but it is not any moderate establishment would guard the coast ; we should not know when to expect the ships, and of course the revenue vessels could not be constantly upon the coast waiting their arrival. Committee."] Your answer has reference to the whole coast of Scotland, and the whole coast of Ireland ? — Yes. Mr. Jackson.] Supposing a free trade to all Mis Majesty's subjects, from every port in the United Kingdom to every port within the limits of the Company's Charter, with the free range of the Eastern seas, can you say what additional establishment of officers, or other establishment, would be necessary to guard the revenue ? — I apprehend, experience alone could decide that. In your opinion, in the nature of things must not such establishments be very numerous and very expensive, in order to give common safety to the revenue ? — Undoubtedly. Supposing the imports from the East-Indies and ihe Eastern seas to be confined to Liverpool, Bristol, Plymouth, Portsmouth, Dover and Hull, looking EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 561 looking to the sort of articles of a light and expensive nature which they John Vivian, then would be allowed to import, is it your opinion that in order to give Esq. common safety to the revenue, considerable additional establishments would be necessary for the security even of those ports, thus limited in number? — I think they would. Is not the amount of Excise duties payable on East-India and Chinese articles to the public by the East-India Company, collected, according to the present system, at a comparatively small expense, and with little trouble or risk to government in such collection ?— -1 think it is, at much less expense certainly, than it would be in any other mode. Is not, in fact, the expense and the risk perfectly trifling, compared with the magnitude of the object ? — I think it is. Can you sav about the annual amount of the Excise dulies paid by the East-India Company to government ? — I really do not recollect that; the duty on tea is stated to be about four millions a year, but all that will appear by the returns. Do you attribute the great degree of safety which you have described, as to so large a sum, to the public and open mode of sale adopted by the East-India Company ?— I do; and their being of sufficient capital to put up the article at what they call an " upset price ;" individual merchants must sometimes, I apprehend, be so pressed, that it may be advantageous to them even to sell their commodity at a loss, for whatever it will fetch ; the East-India Company's practice is never to sell the article that they put up, unless the bidding shall exceed that upset price, consequently the Crown always gets the ad valorem duty upon the proper value of the article ; if, for instance, a private merchant- should find it convenient to sell his tea at 50 per cent loss, it is obvious that one half of the revenue would be lost, because the East-India Company would never sell it but at again :.I wish to suggest, that this answer applies only to the present mode in which the duty is laid at ad valorem ; but if the duty should be imposed as a rative duty, then, from the circumstance of such alteration of the duty, my answer will not apply. the publicity of their sales, the number of purchasers, fo- reign sn, together with the emulation of purchase, is ir your onin <>na fide, sale price is ascertained at diose sales ? — I ap- e no doubt of it. 3 A Do 362 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, Do officers of the customs and excise attend at those sales, or in what Esq. manner does government ascertain their real and bona fide amount ? — I can speak of the excise ; the same act of Parliament regulates both reve- nues ; the officers attend the sales, and take an account of the prices ; on which the East-India Company, at a certain time, settles the account and pays the excise 90 per cent, upon the sale prices ; this applies only to tea. The piece-goods are within the customs only? — Yes; I know nothing of them. You speak of such articles as are within the office of excise ? — One of those articles, tea ; upon wine, coffee, and spirits, there are rative duties. Explain to the Committee what you mean by the upset price ? — I un- derstand it to be the practice of the East-India Company to put up all their goods at a certain price, not allowing the bidders who are present to name the sum by way of commencing the bidding ; and that nobody is permitted to bid otherwise than above the Company's certain specified sum. That applies to all articles ? — I believe to all articles; but it is to tea, particularly, to which I speak. How the upset price is affixed you are not acquainted ? — I am not. That is a price fixed according to the discretion of the East-India Com- pany ? — J suppose so; influenced by their officers, I take for granted. You are not acquainted with the rules and principles upon which that upset price is first named ? — It is a very obvious one ; the practical offi- cers, I presume, must state it to the directors, and they fix it. Supposing, instead of goods being rated ad valorem, and thus exposed. to open and public sale, the mode were changed from an ad valorem to a rative duty, and that public sales should not be the practice, do you not apprehend that the revenue might be put to very material hazard by such alteration ? — The difficulty would be, perhaps, to fix a proper rative price, upon those teas ; I do not conceive there would beany greater risk in the one way than in the other, because it is obvious, if the article is carried away (smuggled) the duty upon it is lost, whatever it may be. Supposing goods lawfully imported sold at the out-ports, that, instead of an open and public sale and an ad valorem duty, it should be changed fox EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. S63 for a rative duty and no obligation of public sale, do you think then that John Vivian, the amount of duty would be collected with equal certainty, or that the Esq. revenue would be equally safe ? — Certainly, all the goods deposited in the ' v- King's warehouse must pay the duty before they are delivered out ; in the warehouse they are perfectly safe, and in that point of view, it would not signify one farthing to the government, whether such goods liable to a rated duty were sold at a tenth part of their value or not ; the crown would receive its duty per pound weight, &.c. whatever it was. Do you state that, whether it is ad valorem or rative ? — If it is ad va- lorem it would become of great consequence ; but if they pay a certain duty per pound, they may sell at what price they will, without injuring the revenue. You confine yourself at present to the article of tea ? — That is the prin- cipal article, the only article indeed of excise upon which the ad valorem duty prevails. My question relates to piece goods ; for instance, how would you ascer- tain the real and bona fide sale price, supposing the ad valorem duty to be changed for a rative duty, and a private sale, at the discretion of the party, substituted for public sale ? — I apprehend the revenue could have no interest in that question ; if the piece-goods should pay a duty per yard, the number of yards would pay the same, whether they sold at one shilling a yard or one pound a yard ; the mode of sale would not at all influence the question. In your opinion, could the ad valorem duty be conveniently and safely exchanged for rative duties upon the East-India and Chinese articles, tea excepted ? — It certainly might conveniently enough to the revenue be changed ; but whether advantageously or not, 1 am not competent to say. Give your opinion, supposing the ad valorem duty to remain, and the public mode of sale exchanged for private sale at the out ports, whether such a change would not extremely endanger the safety of the revenue ? — I am or opinion it would ; the real value certainly could not be ascer- tained then with the same precision that it is now ; there would not, I apprehend, be the same competition of bidders from all parts of the Continent and elsewhere, who do attend the East-India Company's sales, which great number of bidders, added to the upset price, insure, I appre- hend, the goods not selling below the real value, and in consequence pro- S A 2 during S64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, ducing to government the full amount of its duty; should that mode of Esq. sale be varied by allowing individuals to seH at the out-ports, so far as 1 v — -"' respects the ad valorem duty, I am satisfied the full amount would not h: obtained, because the goods might, upon many occasions, be sold at an inferior value; and also would be sold to fewer competitors for the pur- chase : The present East-India Company's sale we know to be a bona tide- transaction ; but it it were to be intrusted to individuals, there would be no such security j an individual puttiug up his private property to sale might put in a ^fictitious purchaser, just as people do at auctions ; and he might buy in the goods at one tenth part of their value ; and by such a juggle, nine tenths ot the duties would be lost: I do not know that the ad valorem duty is upon piece-goods; it is a customs duty ; but this would ■ apply to every article subject to an ad valorem duty. Supposing the amount of trade and the number of ships from the East- Indies to continue the same as at present, would there. be more or less danger of smuggling, if the trade were confined to the port of London, or if it were distributed between the port of London and the out-ports ? — In proponion as you increase the number of ports, of course you in- crease the risk. Looking to the comparative degree of security of the out-ports and of London, do you apprehend that the danger might not materially increase more than the proportion of out-ports that should be added to the port of London ; tor instance, it six ports were added to the port of London, looking to their respective degrees of security at present, in what propor-* tion do you think the risk would increase ? — It is impossible to ascertain the proportion. Is it your opinion, that in proportion to the greater number of ports to which the trade should be admitted, in East-India and Chinese articles, the danger to the revenue would be increased ? — I think the danger to the revenue would be increased whether in the exact ratio of the increase in the ports, is a different consideration ; but I am of opinion that the danger would be increased, and materially so : that clanger, however, might be diminished bv the application of additional security to those ports ; in the port of London the revenue has every security, because of the walled docks ; if the out-ports were put into the same state of security, the increased danger would only be attributable to the different objects soliciting the officers attention : Equal preparation could not perhaps be made for the reception of goods at all. the out-ports as there are at the port of London. Supposing EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 265 • Supposing a free trade to India and the whole of the islands in tire John Vivian, Eastern seas, and that the smuggling of tea was the object of the advert- Esq. turer, in what way, in your opinion, would he proceed to {jel it into firfgland, <— — -y— *-* Scotland, or Ireland ? — As he gets in all other smuggled goods ; certainly there is nothing particular in tea j he would of course,. I r.pprtfHerwl, im- port it from thence to some place of deposit hi a neighbouring ononlry, either Guernsey, Jersey, or more likely the neighbour i rig coast or EVamve or Holland, whilst the present restriction remains on Guern-ty and Jersey by the establishment of custom-houses* which took place a few years ago; he might also procure it through American ship-, or ether foi\ign si ■■■; coming upon the coast, very likely for purposes of general merchandize, bringing this as a bye adventure, which would be delivered out into boats, and smuggled directly on shore. Supposing under the circumstances of a free trade, that smuggling should increase, would not a great proportion of it probably consist in the re-landing of such articles as are now prohibited by law in order to pro- tect the British manufacturers, but are allowed to be re-exported, sup- posing a licence to export from every out-port? — Considering that there would be a greater number of ports from whence that exportation might take place than there is at present, it being at present but from one port, of course upon the principle that the import smuggling might be in- creased, the re-landing smuggling might be increased by increasing the number of ports, because there would be a greater number of objects to require the officers' attention. Is it your opinion, that that description of fraud would be increased under such circumstances? — Undoubtedly, the same princip'e applies equally to both. Supposing the same amount of East-India and Chinese articles as is now imported by the East- India Company in large ships, were to be imported by a great number of adventurers in ships as small as 350 tons burthen, whrrt, in your opinion, would be the difference with regard to the safety of the revenue from such alteration of circumstances? — Any increase in the number of ships must of course be followed by a corres- pondent increase of danger of smuggling, because one ship or few ships are more easily superintended than the many; this is all independent of any provision that might be made hereafter for the increase of the number of officers. Do you then think that under such circumstances, without a very great addition S"6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, addition to the number of officers, even common safety to the revenue Esq. could be procured ? — Certainly not, without a pretty considerable in- *— — -v , , ; crease in the number of officers, and the number of revenue cruisers too. "Would any other description of security become necessary, under those circumstances, than the increase of officers and the number of cutters on any other establishment, under the circumstances of allowing the same degree of trade to be carried on by a variety of adventurers in ships of 350 tons burthen, which is now carried on by the Company in their large ships? — I apprehend that a system could not be organized at all without fresh establishments in India ; and you must, I conceive, insure the revenue here, receiving a complete catalogue of every ship's cargo; to prevent smuggling, that catalogue would require to be authenticated by an officer in India. This catalogue is a manifest; but the manifest is not so perfect an instrument as might be wished, because officers cer- tainly are in the habit of authenticating manifests of goods without having visited the ships; they are in the habit of taking the amount and par- ticulars of the cargo from other sources than that of actual knowledge of the fact; taking it possibly from the catalogue that the captain exhibits, or something of that sort; if perfect manifests were sent home by the ship, and a duplicate of it transmitted by some other conveyance (which it would be absolutely necessary to have) it would then be known what goods ought to be received out of that ship; otherwise the ship might smuggle half her cargo in her passage home, and the officers being entirely ignorant of such smuggling, the crown would lose duties to that amount, whatever they might be. A total new establishment in India would, I apprehend, therefore be absolutely necessary. The revenue has that same security at present in places where there are custom-houses. From the British West-India islands, for instance, ships do bring such. manifests; and, with respect to wine, the manifest must be sworn to beiore the consul or some principal merchants, otherwise the wine cannot be admitted to entry here from any port ; therefore perhaps the sworn manifest would be the better security of the two : but even the sworn manifest might possibly not a.Tord such good security as might be wished, because the temptation to smuggle is such that perhaps captains would still run the risk of taking on board goods not specified in the manifest, in the hope of smuggling them in their passage home; and, should they fail in that endeavour, would give some plausible sort of reason here, to account for their being found on board, such for instance, as I have often known in practice, their having sailed from the port and expected other goods which were sent down in craft to them after they had actually left the port ; and that not choosing to leave the goods behind, they took them on board alter they had passed their manifest. Do a EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 367 Do you apprehend that such an open trade from India, without mani- John Vivian, fests, would be one of extreme peril to the revenue ?— Excessive peril ; Esq. that I apprehend must be the fundamental principle upon which the ' y- ' trade could be permitted at all. Is it customary to have a duplicate of manifests sent from any other part of the world ? — Yes, from all places in India for British ships, a sworn manifest would, I conceive then, become more necessary than it is at present ; the East-India Company must bring home all their goods to the port of London, because that is their domicil ; and whatever smug- gling may have been practised out of East-India Company's ships, I apprehend it has been practised by captains and officers of the ships ; and not, in general, by the Company themselves : but that, perhaps, would be materially varied in the hands of individuals, because the indi- vidual merchants might themselves become the smugglers ; and that with more convenience than a great company, which is not so fit an instru- ment for smuggling, their business being carried on through certain formalities, such as written orders, resolutions, 8cc. which must be de- livered to their subordinate officers, so that a great number of persons must become acquainted with all their proceedings; whereas an indivi- dual can manage it by intrusting it to a very few only, perhaps only to the captain ; another reason is, that a great company has not so cogent a motive to smuggle as an individual, because the affairs of a great company are conducted by a few ; the profits, however, resulting from illicit trade, would not be confined to those few, but would be distributed among all the partners of that concern. According to your experience, have you found the manifests even from places where there are custom-house establishments, valid and effectual securities for the protection of the revenue ? — It certainly has been a very useful security, but not quite effectual ; I certainly have found many instances where the cargo has disagreed with the manifest ; innumerable instances almost. In those numerous instances in which you have found this difference, have you not regarded the manifest on such occasions as so far ineffectual? — Certainly ; the manifest has been a very valuable check, but not an effectual one. Looking to the vast distance from the ports in India and from the Eastern Islands to this country, do you apprehend that manifests, if granted there, might prove even less sufficient than those you have been speaking 'c6S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, speaking of?— I do not know that the length of the voyage would make Esq. any very great difference, because the voyages to which I have been 1 v — — ' alluding, have been sufficiently long for them to practise what they might think fit. If granted merely by individuals where there are no customhouse establishments, would they, in your opinion, be as efficient as now, when granted by custom-house establishments? — Certainly not. Are not those ports having wet docks, but without such docks being surrounded with high walls, in your opinion, more dangerous to the revenue than ports without wet docks? — There is one advantage certainly to the smugglers, that they have always water to float the goods on shore from the ships ; whereas on many occasions, in the port of Bristol for instance, till the establishment of the wet dock, the ships if they should happen to lie from the quay, which was hardly ever the case, indeed I do not know that they could lie there from the quay with safety ; but there are other ports where a ship would lie aground, and there it would not be so easy to bring the smuggled goods on shore as it would be to bring them in a boat. Upon the whole, you would regard such ports having wet docks with- out walls, as more dangerous even than ports without wet docks ? — Yes, I should be disposed to do so any further than this, that in wet dock ports the shipping are brought into a narrow compass, whereas in another port they are at liberty to lie where they please ; they are more widely diffused in the one case than in the other. Supposing such wet docks to be, as in Liverpool, Bristol, and Hull, in the midst of population and surrounded with houses ? — Undoubtedly the danger is very much increased by the proximity of houses, because there is a very short distance to carry the goods before they can be deposited in places out of the officer's sight; if there is any distance for them to be carried there is a risk of detection in the transit. Are not the wet docks in London surrounded by very high walls ?-~ Certainly. Would you regard any docks safe for the revenue, that could not be surrounded with high walls of at least twenty feet highr-r-I am not pre- pared to stale the height, but certainly high walls add veI 7 considerably to the security, they give every possible security to the revenue, there cannot EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFP ATM. S'C() cannot be any greater security from walls than those of the King's Bench John Vi"it»} t prison, where the walls are much higher, I believe, than 20 feet; but Esq. yet there has been smuggling of spirits for the consumption of the pri- <-— son : they contrived to Fung them over ftibse high walls, and there were wrpnf mmnlainrs of that tnrmerlv. — J o great complaints of that formerly. Can you name any wet docks in any port, other than those of London' that are surrounded with high walls r — I know of none ; Bristol I know is not ; Liverpool was not when I saw it. Are not the new wet docks in Bristol in the very heart of the city, and incapable of having such high walls ? — As they are at present, certainly ; but I apprehend there would be no great difficulty in making id the port of Bristol a dock that might be surrounded with a wall. In the present decks, is it your opinion that a high wall could be added? —•I do not see how it could be added, because it is so extensive; it is a very great extent indeed, I should think nearly two miles in length ; there might be a branch dock out of them ; there was a dock there, called Champion's Dock (which is now taken into the present dock) that might have been surrounded by a wall. Is that now surrounded by buildings?— There are buildings on great part of it. On the margin of it ? — Yes, on one side particularly. (Examined by the Committee.) There is no impediment in surrounding the new docks at Liverpool with walls, is there ? — I apprehend there could be no difficulty ; I have no local knowledge of the thing, but wherever there is ground a dock may be made ; and wherever a dock can be made a wall can be built. You have stated, that you consider the Bristol Channel as affording great facility to smuggling ; are you not of opinion that the navigation Of the English Channel from the Land's End to the port of London, from the nature of its numerous ports and the habits of their inhabitants, affords greater facility to smuggling and illicit trade, than the navigation of St. George's and the Bristol Channel? — I believe they are more in the habit of it. 3 B Do » -•y- 370 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivun, Do not you know that vessels bound to Bristol, come, in almost all in- Esq. stances, at once to the harbour of King Road, without previously stopping at any other po:t, whereas vessels bound to London generally stop at Spit- head, in the Downs, or in other places, before they reach the port of their destination? — I believe all vessels bound on fair voyages of course will come up to King Road, but if they have a fraudulent intention, they will slop at any places in the way, and put out their cargoes ; I remember a case wlce tor several years a vessel belonging to the port of Bristol, was in the habit of smuggling out a very considerable portion of her cargo, and on an officei being sent down to inspect her, stated to me, that her sfowage had passages all the way throughout, like what he called gang- ways ; as this was done year after year, it is perfectly clear the thing is possible ; it is only one ship I ahude to in this way, but it is possible for any ship to d > so. Are not you aware, that from the shoals on the Welch coast, and the rocks and shoais upon the English, it is impossible for a ship of 350 tons buithen coming up the Bristol Channel to approach either sripre, till within a tew miles of King Road, without imminent danger? — I do not know; I should think a ship of 350 tuns burthen might navigate that Channel, and i-muggle as much as she chose ; because it is not necessary for the ship itself to come into port or to come very near the coast, she put 5 out her goods into boats. Would not the principle on which you have stated an advantage to the revenue from confining the East-India trade to the port of London, if carried to its full extent, lead to a monopoly of all the trade of the kingdom, or at least in all articles on which hign duties are paid, to that port alone ? — Undoubtedly, the more you confine trade to any particular pert, the more it approximates ta a monopoly for that port. Does not the principle equally apply to the trade in spirits and tobacco, as to that in goods from the East-Indie* ? — Equally, with this difference, that there is no ad valorem duty upon those, they are rative duties. If the cargo upon its arrival does not correspond with the manifest, is it usual to take any step against the captain of the ship, or any other person on board ? — It is usual ; but that is chiefly confined to the customs ; for though the excise have a right to prosecute, the customs have a superin- tending power, and upon some occasions have exerted it. On one par- ticular occasion, J remember three or four captains, at the port of Liver- pool, who were under prosecutiun by the excise, contrived just before the trial EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 371 trial to make their application to the customs who actually had pardoned Johu Vivian, the offence, and we did not know it till one of the trials came •' n ; but Esq. with respect to a disagreement between a cargo and the ship's report, the ' r ~ customs have no such power, and the excise prosecutions are therefore chiefly confined to that. The captain is not considered as in person responsible for any disagree- ment that there may be between the manifest and the cargo itself? — tie is certainly responsible for it; but the excise prosecutions are chiefly con- fined to the disagreements between the cargo and the report, because the excise themselves are the only judges oi the propriety of compromising that prosecution, or remitting the offence altogether; it often happens, where there is a disagreement between the manifest and the cargo, there is a similar disagreement between the cargo and the repoit, but the cap- tain is liable to £.1QO penalty for each or for any variation between his manifest and report ; in short, they ought all to agree. Do you consider, that in other articles, putting aside Eas'-India arti- cles, there is more smuggling from vessels bound to the out ports, than from vessels bound to the port of London, in proportion to the ex.e.it of trade ? — I do not know that there is. Do you conceive that the extent of smuggling in East-India commodi- ties is greater than in any other articles ? — No, 1 do r.o; know that it is. Do you recollect any description of vessels coming to the port of Lon- don, or to the out-ports, fro n which the amount of smuggling is so great as from ships coming from India and China? — It is difficult to say just now, because we are at war with so many countries ; but I should con- ceive, that the ships between this and Holland, smuggled to perhaps a greater extent than the East-India Company's ships, before the war. Do you conceive that the smuggling in the West India ships is at all to be compared in extent to the amount of smugg ing from East-India ships? — In proportion to their cargoes, I should suppose that the smugg'ing was nearly equal ; because an East-India ship is so very large, and brings such a vast quantity of goods ; in truth, we do not know, in either case, what they smuggle in the whole, we only know from the seizures; I believe there is hardly a West-India ship that dees not bring home some casks for smuggling ; we sometimes find on board a surplus, where they have not had an opportunity of smuggling them; sometimes- W'e find deficiencies, where they have had an opportunity of smuggling more than they took on 3 B '2 board S7« MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE: Jok'i Vivian, board for that purpose; this perhaps is matter of opinion, we canaofc E^q. know it to be a fact. « v You have stated, that the great apprehension that you entertain of loss to the revenue from smuggling, arises from your bejief that depots will be formed, in the event of peace, in the neighbouring countries, for the pur- pose of smuggling tea, and other articles of East-Indian and Chuiese pro- duce into this country, do you apprehend that those teas will be conveyed to those depots inBritish ships or in neutral ships, it being understood that a foreign ship is a vessel of less value, and not subjected to the same penal- ties to which a British ship would be liable ? — My observation is not con- fined to articles of East-India produce, but extends to all goods intended to be smuggled ; because that formerly was the case, I presume, upon the return of peace, it will be again the case. As to the question by what ships they might be brought, it is impossible to say ; they may be brought by either ; the persons intending to carry on that traffic will employ, I suppose, sometimes the one and sometimes the other; but it will be more convenient to persons inhabiting this country, to bring them in their own country ship than others, because this country is the place of destination for their regular merchandize, and I presume, therefore, they would bring the irregular merchandize in the same bottom ; they would probably con- trive to do, as it is understood they do now, that is, have boats to meet them in the Channel, who would carry their goods away to those places of deposit upon perhaps the neighbouring coast, or perhaps run them di- rectly on shore. In the event of the trade to India being opened from the out-ports, the trade in tea being excluded, do you conceive that very great risk will not attach to vessels proceeding from India with tea on board, wih an inten- tion to land it in the manner you have described, taking the chance of meeting the vessel that is to convey the article of tea intended to be smug- gled to a foreign depot, it being supposed that the having tea on board will subject the vessel and cargo to confiscation ? — There will undoubtedly be considerable risk, as there is in all smuggling transactions, but I appre- hend the risk will not be so great as to deter many persons from run- ning it. If a person were disposed to smuggle, would it not be more advan- tageous to him, and therefore is he not more likely to enter into that transaction with a view to his own safety and advantage, in a neutraL vessel than in a British, ship? — I should think not, because it is hardly to be supposed that a vessel would be entirely freighted from that great dis- tance BAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 573 tance with contraband goods, part of her cargo only will consist of the John Vivian, contraband article. Esq. "Would not the circumstance of the other part of the cargo being liable to confiscation be a matter which would therefore deter any person trom engaging in such an adventure ? — If I may judge from great experience, it would not. You have stated that considerable danger might arise from the re- landing of prohibited articles, and of articles upon which the duty has either not been paid or drawn back, in consequence of a general permission to export those commodities from different ports in this kingdom, which are not prohibited, and other articles of that description now allowed to be conveyed to out-ports under bond for the purpose of exportation? — I be* lieve they are ; that however is under the customs, the excise has no con- cern with prohibited articles. Do not the excise seize them when they find them ? — They have no right to seize prohibited goods; they may do it in conjunction with the customs; if they find an article they know to be prohibited, they will stop it, and get a custom-house officer to make what they call a re-seizure of it. You have stated, that a vessel going north about would probably smug- gle tea ; with a view to smuggling tea would not a person, desirous of profitably engaging in that traffic, rather employ, as he may now legally do, a neutral vessel exceeding 100 tons in burthen, export the tea from the port of London, make the voyage in the manner the most advantageous for the object in view, rather than employ a British vessel of 350 tons burthen and upwards coming from India, a distance which would prevent the possibility of early and exact communication of arrival, it being under- stood that the neutral vessel may approach without danger of seizure within a few miles of the coast, and the vessel of 350 tons and upwards coming trom India would be liable to seizure and confiscation on every part of her voyage? — Every merchant will of course consult his own con- venience upon that subject; but he may not perhaps have equal confidence in a neutral ship that he has in a British ship. You have stated, that it might be difficult in the event of public sales of tea being established in the out-poif=, to obtain a fair market price for them ; do you know that at Liverpool, in particular, coffee is generally sold by public ^ale, and always obtains there the full market \aiue? — I have no knowledge of the fact, but it is obvious that there may be a dif- ference 374 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ference between the two articles, because the duty upon coffee is very John Vivian, inconsiderable, but the duty upon tea is very high ; the temptation is much Esq. greater in proportion to the magnitude of the duty upon the article. The sale is not for the purpose of ascertaining the dutv, but for the pur-, pose of procuring the fair price, and is a matter of choice with the mer- chant ? — That is tor the purpose of making a fair sale of the commodity ; my hypothesis is the reverse of that, that no fair sale is intended, but that the opportunity will be chosen most convenient for making a sham sale of the thing, and selling at an under value. Are you well acquainted with the mode of conducting sales at Liver- pool, or the possibility of such a combination of conflicting interests as would enable persons to carry on such a sale, as you have supposed, effec- tually to accomplish their purpose? — Certainly there can be no very great difficulty in contriving times and opportunities when the thing can he best effected, unless regulations were made, which it is difficult perhaps to contrive; that there should be a certain number of days notice of sale, and a very great number of regulations possibly might diminish the risk ; but I am or opinion, that it would be no very difficult task for such a sham sale, as I have suggested, to be effected. In the event of a month's public notice in various newspapers for a sale taking place at Liverpool, in the article of tea, do you suppose it possible that that tea could, by any understanding among buyers, be disposed of fifty per cent, below its value, or to any considerable amount below its value? — I certainly think it might be disposed of below its value; and especially below the value which the article fetches under the present regulations, because the East India Company's sales take place at specific seasons of the year; and all the buvers upon the continent are as well acquainted with these times and seasons as the East-India Company themselves, and send o\er their orders accordingly; whereas, in the other case, I suppose it would be intended to leave the time and place of sale at the option of the proprietor of the merchandize, and if so, I see no reason to doubt that it might be so contrived as to sell at a very considerable price below the real value; but that the thing would not fetch so much money as it does under the present regulation I think there can be no doubt. Do you know that there are few or no foreign buyers for tea ? — I un- derstand that the foreign buyers do come to this place to buy tea ; it is, however, a mere general understanding, 1 have no particular knowledge of the fact; they send over their orders to this country, at all events, which induce the buyers to make engagements; considerable tea brokers buy only EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 37 5 only in proportion to the demand they expect for the article; in propor- John Vivian, ti'.ri to ihe den-aid therefore from the continent they buy, more or less; Esq. and the same from Ireland. (. Upon the supposition that the act of parliament fixed the times of pe- riodical sale-! at the out-ports, and that those sales wore regularly advertised in the mo.it public manner, do you not conceive that a price would be ob- tained for te^, equal and on the average of years superior, by the expense of transport to that district from London, to what can be regularly obtained at the East-India Company's sales? — It would certainly not produce so great a price as if it were to be put in as the East-India Company do at the upset price, because no regulation can be made to prevent a merchant from bell.ng his tea at even less money than it cost him, it it should suit his convenience, and that would frequently occur, unless he has an almost unlimited capital. Are you aware that when a merchant in public sale abstains from nam- ing an upset price, he does so entirely with a view to his own advantage, and ultimately tor the obtaining a better price than if he were to offer the commodity at an upset price ? — It is obvious, that under ordinary cir- cumstances that must be a motive to influence his conduct; but he may be in circumstances to induce him to sell it at a considerable loss, which never happens a; present, I apprehend, in the East-India Company's sales. On the supposition which has already been stated, of periodical ad- vertised sales of tea, is it not likely that an article of such general con- sumption would on all occasions, but mure particularly on an average of years, produce the lull market value, of the commodity ? — 1'erhaps the market value of the commodity would then be less than it is at present, that is my apprehension. Have you considered all the various modes of collecting duties, even when taken ad valorem ? — It is impossible to say that 1 have done that, because I came here without any ^ort of preparation ; I came to offer my genuine sentiments, thinking it better, without any preparation. Then you have not considered any mode of levying ad valorem duty, unless by ascertaining the value of the commodity by public sale? — I have never turned my attention to it, but principles have certainly occurred to my experience that will possibly enable me to answer that question: v\e are not without examples of that in the revenue, and I remember two remarkable instances ; formerly the duty upon paper, instead -V" 376 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE .OX 'TOE John f'n'iaii, instead of being a rative duty upon the pound as it is now, was an ad Esq. valorem duty; we never could agree upon what was the value of the 1 v ' thing, and by way of making the matter less difficult, it was said it should be according to the value at the next market town (the paper mills being generally out of towns), and when we came to that, we had the greatest possible contrariety of evidence, the officers and the witnesses produced by the defendant were frequently as wide as east from west. We had another remarkable instance in the case of callicoes about the year 1785, [ think ; Mr. Pitt was prevailed upon at last to repeal the duty entirely ; it was a duty upon callicoes to be ad valorem, and the officers and the traders never could agree upon the value of the pieces. As we have failed in these two instances, I should despair of finding any criterion more efficacious, upon the present occasion, than those have been upon the past. Do you not think there is considerable difference between a manufac- tured and an imported article ? — Certainly not, in that respect, because it is a matter of opinion ; in the cases that underwent my examination upon those ad valorem duties, I had no more doubt of the value of the thing, than ] had of my own existence; and I am satisfied it was impossible the traders' account of the matter could be correct, but yet they did produce such a body of evidence upon all occasions, as bore us down in the Crown's evidence, in nine cases out of ten. In the article of tea, might it not be provided that the merchant-im- porter should fix a value as that upon which he was disposed to pay duty, after its remaining a certain time in the custom-house, during which period the revenue officer might take for the public at the price fixed, the whole commodity ; do not you think that a regulation of that description might oppose a formidable obstacle to any fraud such as you apprehend ? — The revenue officers might certainly be left to take it for themselves; but to take it for ihe public, would be perhaps diverting the attention of the public Boards from much more important concerns, the collection of the revenue ; you would then make them merchants : that regulation does prevail in customable articles to a very considerable extent ; it has however, never been thought a practicable thing to take it upon the public, but it has been left to the discretion of the officers, and the officers are very cautious of involving themselves in such transactions ; because, if it is at all a measuring cast, they durst not venture upon it, unless there should be so manifest an undervalue given to the goods that nobody can be mistaken, they never, I believe, enforce the regulation. Do ■v EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 377 Do you conceive there would be any injury to the revenue from esta- John fiv/an, blishing a rative duty upon tea, or is the classification of tea at all practi- Esq. cable? — There is a classification at present of tea, but to no very consider- able extent, such as black tea and green tea ; we have five or six descrip- tions, pekoe, and others, in the statute books ; in keeping traders' stock, classification with a view to duty would be a matter of consideiable dilH- culty ; it would expose the revenue to this difficulty, the thing might possibly be so mixed, that we should have a dispute to which class it belonged ; upon many occasions it has been a doubt what kind of spirit the thing is, and really where it has been part of one and part of another, there has occurred such a contrariety of evidence, that the Excise could not ascertain the fact : And again, when the ad valorem duty existed on paper, what class it belonged to, to regulate the duty, and when the officers made it in one class the traders would bring it into another ; the classification is now reduced to this simple mode, to brown paper and all other papers, and we have been obliged to define, that nothing shall be considered brown paper, but what is manufactured entirely from old ropes, without, the pitch and tar being extracted. You have stated your apprehension to be, that the market value of tea might be lowered by sales at the out-ports, is it therefore your opinion, that the present mode of conducting the sales of tea keeps up the price to the consumer at a higher rate than it would be if sold in any other man- ner? — That possibly may be the consequence. Would not the lowering the price of tea have a tendency to increase the consumption ? — That may be naturally expected. "Would not the revenue on ad valorem duty, gain upon such increased consumption, though it would lose upon such reduction of price ? — It is impossible to say exactly what the effect would be ; but if the consump- tion was increased, the increased consumption might make up for the loss of the value. And the tea come cheaper to the public ? — Certainly it is possible. Without any diminution in the revenue? — If the increase of consump- tion should be sufficient to counterbalance the deficiency of ad valorem duty, the revenue would be no loser. In speaking of increased consumption of teas, which you have stated to be possible by the diminution of the price, do you speak of an increased 3 C 378 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, consumption of the higher or lower priced teas ? — I apprehend h might Esq. a PP'y lo either ; upon which ever article the diminution of price took v v i place, it would be followed by the consequent increase of consumption. Do you believe that the higher priced teas would be brought into more general consumption ? — It would not apply equally to both, because the consumers of the higher priced teas would not probably be influenced by a diminution of the price. Do not you conceive, that if the finer qualities of tea were dis- posed of at a lower price, it would induce many persons to consume those finer qualities of tea rather than use the qualities of tea which they now use ? — Undoubtedly, if you can have a finer article at the same price you had a coarser article at, you would prefer the finer. And that the consequent increased consumption of those finer qualities of tea would, according to all probability, benefit the revenue, either by causing an increased importation, or an advance in the price ? — I have no idea that any such reduction of price would take place by those regula- tions, as materially to increase the consumption of the higher priced teas. At the time of the commutation act, are you of opinion that the con- sumption of the finer qualities of teas was very considerably increased ? — Certainly ; the commutation act put out of use altogether a very ordinary sort of tea, which was before in use ; and I believe that ordinary kind of tea has continued out of use to the present day, notwithstanding the rise of price. Do not you understand that there was a large consumption of tea in this country before the commutation act, which the commutation act only brought into notice, and did not create; that it was smuggled into the country before, but that the effect of the commutation act was to bring it to public sale ? — I have no particular knowledge of that fact ; but I know that the sort of tea which was a very considerable article of smug- gling (the very ordinary kind of tea) has not been in use since ; I believe the East-India Company have not sold any ; and I understand it is not in use, either by smuggling or in any other way. Has the commutation act increased the consumption of tea in this country, or only prevented smuggling, and brought it to an open market? — It has very considerably increased the consumption and diminished the smuggling. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 379 Is it therefore your opinion, that in the event of a considerable reduc- John Viviqn t tion in the price of the finer qualities of tea, which mi^ht occasion a defal- E>q. cation in the revenue, that defalcation would probably be made up by ' v the increased consumption ; but if the reduction in price were inconsidera- ble, the defalcation of revenue would be in the same proportion? — Whatever I might say upon that subject, would be so much a matter of conjecture, that perhaps no value could be attached to it. You have stated your apprehension, that the public sales at Liverpool and the other out-ports might have the effect of generally lowering the prices of tea, and thereby create a probable deficiency in the revenue ; supposing the consumption not to be increased, would not that reduction in the price of tea, which you have contemplated, remove in proportion the temptation to smuggling teas, which at present exists ? — It certainly must diminish in a degree the temptation to smuggling ; to what extent, I cannot say. With a view to the establishment of rative duties upon tea, if that were desirable, do you think that by classing Hysons, Souchong and Bohea, and attaching a rative duty to each, the revenue might not be safely col- lected, and without diminution from its present amount ? — I am not suffi- ciently a judge of the different species of teas, to answer that question. Are you aware that the duties collected from private merchants are always paid before the removal of the goods, and that postponement in the payment of the duties has taken place in collections from the East- India Company ? — Yes. Do you know whether interest has been allowed to the public in those cases ? — I do not know. Do you know whether there is any sum now due to the public from the East-India Company ? — I believe the East-India Company are never entirely out of the revenue's debt, it is almost impossible they should be. Do the East-India Company collect the revenue for the government without charging agency ? — I believe they charge nothing ; the revenue looks to receiving a nett sum from them, and they call upon them at sucji periods as they think fit. Are you particularly acquainted with the river Humber? — No. 3 C 2 You 330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE %\a Vivian, \o\i are not therefore aware that there are very few landing places in Esq. the river Humber, even at high water? — I know nothing on the subject ; t - ~v > but I never yet saw a river where a smuggler would not find opportunities of landing, in places where other persons would nor land ; perhaps the river Thames is as impracticable as any which can be found. You are unacquainted with the shore, whether it is muddy or not? — I allude to muddy shores ; the Thames furnishes a very strong instance of that sort. Are not trials for smuggling on the coast more numerous in proportion than trials lor smuggling in the river Thames? — -The trials for smuggling on the coast are much more numerous than in the Thames; I cannot speak of the proportion, I speak of the fact of there being more. "iou mean that the trials for smuggling over the whole coast of England together, are more than for smuggling in the Thames? — Certainly. Is not smuggling easier and more practicable from small vessels of 350 tons, than from large ships of from 800 to 900 tons, or China ships of from 1,400 to l,f,O0 tons ? — Certainly the smuggling from smaller ships is more easy than from larger ones, because the smaller ships can come into water where the larger ones can never approach. Is it not frequently discovered, in the course of trials for smuggling, that in consequence ot notices by their agents, numbers of smugglers assemble at specified parts of the coast, and carry off the goods when brought on shore, in various directions, so as to elude the revenue officers? I believe there is no instance of a smuggling vessel coming near the coast, that has not made her shore arrangements, so that the smugglers know where to assemble, and they take their range along the coast according to the wind ; it is fixed that the vessel is to come to such a part, or such a part, according to the wind, and they know where to expect her; some- times it happens that they come to a wrong place, and then they must go to the next [lace; these inland smugglers come with their horses and apparatus to carry off the goods, and the whole are very often cleared ofT in a very short time. Would not such arrangements be more difficult to be made by a vessel coming from a distant voyage, than from a short passage ? — They wpuld not be so easy, certainly. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 384 Po not the trials for Smuggling on the coast, to which you have alluded, John Vivian, include offences for smuggling from vessels bound to the pirt of London, Esq. as well as to the out-ports ? — Undoubtedly: I must say, however, that I < Y ' have no particular recollection ot the vessels being bound to any par- ticular port, in the ca^es within my mind ; I do not take that into the account. Upon what coast are those offences the most frequent ? — They vary at different times; they were very common upon the coast opposite to Holland, till the war; upon the coast oppodte to Guernsey and Jersey, and all the way down to the west the smuggling has very much vaiied since the war, insomuch that there is now very little smuggling; indeed since the forty-seventh of thfe King, a very cogent smuggling act, which was then made, extending the limits of the Hovering Act from eight leagues to 100 leagues; so that all questions of distance, or no distance (which was cornmon'y the point to be tried) was quite cut up: In the same act, or about the same time, the islands of Guernsey and Jersey, which were the only remaining depositaries of smuggled goods at that time, were entirely put under new regulations by the establishment of custom houses there. In the event of a free trade, would not you be most apprehensive of that smuggling taking place at the chops ot the Channel r — Certainly the chops of the Channel w uld be a principal place, I apprehend, where they would be taking out those goods; for this reason, that it probably would be out of the reach of all the revenue cruisers, who would hardly go to that distance ; but it does not preclude the possibility ot smuggling after they have passed the chops of the Channel. I apprehend the smug- gling might be all along the coast. Would not the danger in the chops of the Channel be equally incurred by a tree trade to the port of London, as by a free trade to the out-.port.-. ? — That would depend upon the number of ships, it large snips are em- ployed in it, there would be fewer of them than if they were smaller. Supposing the burthen of them to be the same in both cases ?— Cer- tainly, because that is the poiat which they would in all likelihood arrive. With respect to the practicability of collecting the dutv on tea bv a rative value, are you aware that the tea brokers distinguish each species of tea into three different qualities, as good, middling; and ordinary ; and that each of fhdse qualities is again subdivided into three gradations of «82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JfoA/i Tlvian, go°d, middling, and ordinary of its kind ( — I have no knowledge of Esq. the fact. —v- It has been given in evidence, that the increased water-guards, on the ■India and China ships coming into the Channel, have diminished the fa- cility of smuggling, should the same means be applied to the port which may be opened to the import and export trade of China and Indian arti- cles, would not the security to the revenue be increased ? — In proportion as thsy increase their guard, the security of the revenue must be increased. It is understood, that the trade to Bristol, Liverpool and Hull, is prin- cipally occupied with the importation of cargoes from the West Indies and North America, which being of a bulky and less valuable nature than the East-India commodities, do you think that the same water-guard and offi- cers that are now sufficient to give a reasonable security to the revenue •collected at those ports, would be sufficient in case of those ports being opened to the East-India trade and to those valuable articles ? — No. Are not the articles brought from India of greater value, less bulk, and of course is not there more facility in smuggling them, than the articles brought from the quarter of the West Indies and North America ? — Many of them are. Could any probable estimate be formed of the increased expenses attend- ing the collecting the revenue on the proposed changes in the Indian trade, in proportion to the expense of collecting the revenue in the same trade in its present mode of collection ? — An esti.nate might undoubtedly .be made ; but the accuracy of that estimate perhaps might be very ques- tionable. There could be no doubt that it would be very considerably increased r —I apprehend it would be very considerably increased. As an open trade with India may naturally be expected to increase very considerably the imports from that country, would not such increase of trade be productive of a correspondent increase of revenue ? — Assuming the fact of an increase of importation, an increase of revenue wouid be its concomitant. Would not such increase of revenue be likely to counterbalance the additional expense of collection, and any defalcation that might arise from increased smuggling ? — That would depend upon the possibility of any increase, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 383 increase, and the extent of that increase ; if it was very considerable, cer- John Vivian, tainly it would be adequate ; but, were I to hazard a conjecture upon Esq. the subject (which would be no better than the conjecture of any other i.n- l y J dividual) I should say that the revenue might perhaps suffer by it. Are yo'j of opinion that the increase of smuggling has at all kept pace with the increase of the trade of this country ? — As I stated before, the present. times are so singular, that we have scarcely any smuggling at all ; but previous to these late regulations, and the wars in which we are at present involved, the smuggling heretofore bore a much greater propor- tion to the merchandize of the country than it does at present. Are not you of opinion, that whilst the general trade of this country has greatly increased, the practice of smuggling has become less preva- lent ? — From the peculiar circumstance of the times, certainly not only the places of deposit are diminished, and it may be said almost annihilat- ed, but the hands by which the smuggling has been conducted are now otherwise employed ; they are now most of them serving in the navy, but upon the return of peace, such of them as remain will, in all likelihood, return to their ancient avocations, and will gain a great number or as- sociates who had never been en?ampany's fixed periodical sales, as they are called, being put off for months ? — I believe I may have heard that a sale has been postponed, but I have no particular knowledge of that fact. Are EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 38$ Are you of opinion that ships of any size not less than 350 tons, being John Vivian, permitted to go from any port in this country to any port within the Com- Esq pany's Charter, particularly to the islands in the Indian Archipelago, there *— — y- — — ' would be a reasonable probability of any means of acquiring security in regard to what cargoes those ships in the Indian Archipelago might bring to Europe ? — It would be very difficult. Would there be any means of procuring even that security of manifests, there being no establishments of revenue officers in those islands in the Indian seas ? — I apprehend there are no revenue establishments at present in those parts. Do vou place considerable confidence in the efficacy of the act of the 47th of the King, to which you have alluded ? — That, with other cir- cumstances, certainly that act has been a very important one ; because, as I stated before, it establishes a Custom House at Guernsey and Jersey, the only remaining depots of smuggled goods; and it enables the officer to arrest all persons found on board the smuggling vessels and deliver them over to the navy. Are those the only new provisions of that act? — There is also an ex- tenMon of the limits from eight leagues to one hundred leagues; it also subjects to forfeiture all i»kips belonging, in the whole or in part, to his Ma- jesty's subjects, or of which the persons found on board are more than one half of them his Majesty's subjects; if they have a greater number of small spirit casks on board than are necessary for the use of the voyage upon which they are then bound; if they have any instruments on board for drawing off spirits; it they have on board any materials for the con- struction of smuggling casks ; if they have anv cordage for sinking smug- gling casks ; all these regulations are highly important. And have been efficacious? — They have been efficacious unquestiona- bly ; but the great point has been the subjecting Guernsey and Jersey to the regulations they are now subject to, being tiie only remaining deposits of smuggled goods j that is, in my opinion, the fundamental principle of the act. Do not you think, that where a law could be made, making it unlaw- ful for a private British vessel to have any tea on board, more than suffi- cient for the ship's consumption during the whole course of the voyage from the East- Indies, that act would be attended with the same sort of efficacy as the provisions of the act to which you have alluded, putting 3 D out — ' $83 MiNUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian t out of the question, of course, its relating to Guern'ey and Jersey r^-It Esq. certainly would have a considerable effect, one would apprehend ; at the same time it is obvious enough, that if a ship had more than that, she would contrive to get rid of it by some means or other, in hey might of some others ; but then it would be lost or destroyeJ, they might thro;V it overboard. Do you understand that in these questions, with respect to the efficacy of subjecting a ship and cargo to confiscation, a law is referred to, rendering it illegal for British ships to have between the East-Indies and this country any tea on board, and that no British ships under 350 tons burthen should be permitted to make a voyage at all ? — It would be efficacious, so far as the range of the revenue water-guard extended. No further ? — If the revenue officers did not go there, they could riot find them ; the ships of war however might. "Would there not be an additional risk at any port at which those ships might be obliged to touch during the voyage ?— Undoubtedly, if she was liable to seizure, I presume, that some officer of that port, or naval officer, would be authorized to seize. Would not this great risk, to which a British ship would be exposed in importing tea, render it much more easy to form deposits on the Continent, by means of foreign ships, than by means of British ships ? — The diffi- culty, I apprehend, would be this, that a ship going for that sole object would not be so likely to be employed as a ship that was freighted with other goods going for the purpose of fair merchandize, and the contra- band goods forming a part of her cargo ; the Americans, I should appre- hend, would be the principal persons to do this, and that they would bring considerable quantities ot tea which they would deposit in the opposite ports of France. Would not the foreign vessel- have the same power of taking a mixed cargo as British vessel-? — Certainty; but a British merchant would not have the same connection with, forekn ones that he lias with English. Would BAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 3S7 Would not the English smuggler have the same connection with those John Vivian, foreign depots, however th.-y were made ? — He would certainly have con- Es<]. nection with a depot when once established, but the mode of supplying ' v- ' that depot would be perhaps a difficulty ; and an Englishman would pro- bably supply it more conveniently with English vessels than he would with foreign vessels, because he would not be in the habit of such extended intercourse with foreign nations as with his own. Would not a deposit be more chiefly formed, through the means of fo- reign than of British vessels ?— I do not know- why it should, any further than that the risk of forfeiture might be imposed upon a British vessel, which could not upon a foreigner. Would not that make a considerable difference ?— It might. Do not you think it would make a very considerable difference r — It is possible it might. Do you take into. your consideration, that a foreign vessel would have an additional opportunity of smuggling tea on our coast, with much less; danger than a British vessel, inasmuch as it would not be illegal for a fo- reign vessel to have the tea on board in the Channel, and it would be so illegal. for a, British vessel ? — It would certainly be more convenient to a foreign, vessel to have it, because she might not be liable 1 to the same for- feiture that the English vessel, would be. When smuggling in tea existed to a great degree, did it not take place very considerably from the Company's ships ? — I do not know ; since the commutation act, the smuggling of tea has been very much diminished indeed ; there is hardly such a thing; there is scarcely any tea smuggled ' except in a very few instances, with which we have been acquainted ; tUe article of tea is not to be, found upon the coast, as it formerly was. To what do you attribute that circumstance ? — In the first instance, I think, it is attributable to the reduction of price, the duty was so low that it was not an object ; and an establishment once put an end to, does not raise its head again verv speedily ; since the duty has been at its present height, Guernsey and jersey have been put down as the depots of smug- gling ; but tor that regulation, I dare say tea would be smuggled there again ; we know tea has been smuggled in foreign ships, such as a Swedish 3D 2 Eatt- 388 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, East-Indiaman ; there was one instance at Falmouth, and another at Esq. Yarmouth. V— — v •— ' Do you think that the smuggling would revive in time of peace ? — I think it would. Do you think that it would then be carried on in the same way in' which it was carried on before the commutation act ? — I see ro reason why it should not, except this, that possibly the French coast may not be quite so good a place of deposit as our own islands ot Guemseyand Jersey, As applied to the smuggling from the Company's ships to our coast, have you reason to believe that that species of smuggling would not revive if the smuggling revived at all ? — I think it would of course; but that I apprehend would not be ot the Company's tea, but of the officers' adven i tures in general. I have heard it said, and 1 have heard it contradicted, that a captain of an India ship may smuggle the Company's tea upon pay- ing a certain advance upon the invoice price ; if he be permitted to do that, it certainly is a very dangerous thing ; but if it is confined to his own private adventure, the injury to the revenue is certainly much less extensive than it would be if he was permitted to lay his hand upon the Company's goods. Supposing no alteration to be made in the present system, do you con- ceive that a considerable smuggling of tea would take place in a time of peace ? — Not very materially ; I see no reason why there should. Do you consider that the circumstance of admitting private ships to the port of London, and to some of the out-ports, tea being prohibited, as before described, under the severest penalties of the law, that that opening of the trade would produce a smuggling of tea in a very considerable de- gree ? — I do ; because I do not apprehend, speaking from past experience, that any penalties, however severe, are fully competent to the suppression of smuggling, where they have an opportunity of getting possession of the article at all; and the individuals, as I before stated, have a much greater motive for smuggling, and a greater facility of accomplishing it than great companies have; because the want of instrumentality is in the one case very great, and with respect to individuals, is always at hand ; a merchant need do nothing perhaps but confide himself to the captain alone ©f his vessel, and therefore he may be under a temptation, which the East-India Company is not, When EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. S89 When you answered, that you did not think there would be much John Vivian, Smuggling, supposing the present system to remain, did you call to your Esq. recollection that it was a part of the present system, that any private ^-—^- 1 vessel of" any burthen, belonging to any friendly nation, might bring tea from China or the Eastern St as up the British Channel ?— Certainly they may bring it up the British Channel if they please; and we find they avail themselves of an opportunity to smuggle it; and a Swedish East-Indiaman in one case, and an American at Yarmouth, did so to a great extent. How do you reconcile your answer, that there would not be smuggling in time of peace, with the evidence which you have given as to the facility of smuggling from continental depots? — In giving my answer, my obser- vations were confined to the East-India Company's carrying on the trade, or its being laid open to individuals. Have the goodness to answer the former question, as to the probability of smuggling reviving in time of peace, the present system remaining, you recollecting the circumstances alluded to, as to private foreign vessels as a part of the present system? — The facilities of smuggling certainly will be increased in time of peace, from various causes; it a place of deposit were wanting, a peace would supply that place of deposit ; if hands to perform the work were wanting, a peace would supply those hands, which at pre-- sent are not so numerous, therefore peace is always more favourable to smuggling than war. Do you think upon the whole, for those or any other reasons, that, under the present system, the duties remaining the same, smuggling of tea would be carried on to a considerable extent in time of peace ? — I cannot say to what extent; I do not apprehend that under the present regulations smug-- gling would be very considerably increased by the return of peace ; but that it would increase is natural to expect, tor the reasons I have given. Then you think that the temptation would, with respect to the species of smuggling which can exist under the present system, be overcome by the checks which have been provided ; but that with respect to smuggling that might occur under freer trade, as to British vessels, the temptation would overcome the law? — Those are inferences from my evidence which I can- not follow ; if any isolated question be put to me' I will endeavour to an- swer it, but in that long concatenation I cannot follow it. [The Witness withdrew. [Adjourned to Monday, 1 1 o'clock. Liuue, 390 MINUIE5 OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lunce, 26* dge Ajtrilis 1813, The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. JOHN VIVIAN, Esq., was again called in, and examined by the Com- mittee as follows : John Vivian, Do you think that, under the present system, there would be, a consi- Esq. derable smuggling of tea, in rime of peace, from the Company's ships ?. t ^ » I see n o very particular reason why it should very materially increase from the Company's ships, in time, of peace, because they do not in oeneral stand in need of places of. deposit, in the way that they have hi- therto carried on that smuggling. I speak now of the captains and offi- cers of East-India ships. Do you think that deposits on the Continent, for the purpose of smug- gling, would be formed in any other way ? — It is possible there might, because formerly Guernsey and Jersey were made use of as places of de- posit ; and that being now prevented by the recent acts of parliament, I : presume that they would find substitute places of deposit upon the neigh- bouring coast of France. In what way do you think it would be most easy to form these deposits ? —I should conceive there would be no material difficulty : a smuggler is never at a loss to make these sort of arrangements. Could it be done by exporting tea that had been lately imported by the Company ? — Undoubtedly, it might. Could it be done by foreign vessels going direct to these places of de- posit ? — Certainly. You are aware that these questions refer to the system remaining as it is fcAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. $$1 is at present? — Yes, a continuance of the present system, varied only by John Vkian, the return of peace. Esq. « -v ' Do you think that the temptation being as you have stated, the enter- pnze of smugglers being as you have stated, there would be sufficient means of smuggling in time of peace, under the present system, to cause it to be carried on to a serious extent ? — Means of smuggling, undoubt- edly, there would be in tinies of peace more than at present. So as to be Seriously alarming to the revenue ? — It is impossible to say that; the present high duties certainly would increase the temptation ; about half or the duties at present are war duties, which, unless continued, would cease on the return of peace, and that certainly would remove a considerable portion of the temptation. In either case the duties remaining the same, or being reduced as they are now by law to be reduced, do you think that the circumstance of admitting private British ships, under the restrictions before stated, to some of the out-ports, would add very consideiably to the means afforded to the smugglers under the present system? — I do ; because individual merchants, as well as their captains nnd officers, would be tempted to engage in the smuggling, to which the East India Company have no temp- tat;, n, of their own property. How are individual merchants, natives, or foreigners, prevented under the present system?— No tea can be brought any where upon the coast on board any but an East-India ship. Are you aware that any ship but a British ship, of any burthen, may bring tea to any European or American port ? — Other than a British port, undoubtedly; but the difference is this ; I conceive, that ships will not in gf nc-ral come upon the neighbouring coast laded entirely with tea ; but they must be ships coming into the neighbourhood of England, hav- ing on board other merchandize, and this only a part of the cargo; therefore I hive not equal apprehensions of smugging from foreigners- that I have from British ships, returning home with lawful merchandize,, smuggling such parts of their cargo as they can contrive to get out. Why is it to be supposed British ships will come with these assorted, cargoes, and not foreign ships ? — A foreign ship, not bound to this coun- try, will not be so likely to have tea on board as a sh^tjiat is returning home, 392 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, home, unless it is entirely laden with that contraband cargo, which will Esq. not in general, 1 apprehend, be the case. i • v > Do you recollect, that with respect to a foreign ship, a cargo of tea will not be illegal until the moment it is attempted to be smuggled ? — I am aware of that; but it is an entire cargo, brought for an illicit pur- pose ; that I am not so apprehensive of entire cargoes being brought by foreign vessels for the purpose of smuggling, as I am that ships belonging to England and returning home, will bring an assorted cargo and smuggle out a part of it ; indeed, we find that to be the case at present, with re- spect to the smuggling of tea, for it is effected in this way ; the ship is upon her re'urn home with an import cargo ; but a superabundant quanti- ty of merchandize is taken on board for the illicit purpose of smuggling; the East India Corpany's officers, I believe, generally do this, not ths East-India Company themselves. Were you connected with the revenue before the commutation act ?— • From that time. So as to give you an idea of the smuggling which took place before that ? — I came in that very year, or the next. Was not the pr'neipal smuggling then carried on by means of forming deposits? — I believe ir was; but at the same time, this smuggling, by the East-India Company's officers, existed before: I happened to have a par icular knowledge of that from this circumstance; that, in very- early life, 1 lived in the neighbourhood of Falmouth, where it was then the practice of the East-India Company's ships to come in ; they were af- terwards prevented ; but I know smuggling from them was very common till the time of the commutation act. Will not whatever addi most considerably to the means of making those deposits increase in t lie most considerable degree the danger of smug- gling ? — Every increase of facility of creating deposits will probably tend to the increase ol smuggling. CO o You mentioned in the course of your evidence the possibility of con- structing what you termed a branch dock at Bristol, surrounded by a wall; supposing uch a wall to e constructed, would it afford sufficient securi- ty againsi smuggling? — So far as respect, the port itself, it undoubtedly would; but that, of course, will not atiect ihc approaches to the port. Would "^— EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 393 Would not the expense of constructing such a branch dock be so J°^ n Vnian, great, as to require a great proportion of Indian trade to be established Esq. at Bristol, in order to yield any profit from the undertaking ? — Works of ' that kind are undoubtedly attended with very considerable expense; the works which have been lately erected at Bristol of that sort, have exceed- ed all computation of expense; I do not know whether as much a two or three times over, it is difficult therefore to say what the i kp< nse would be; but I apprehend the expense might be raised, if persons were satisfied that the returns would be adequate to it; whether tiny would be or n f, it is impossible for me to conjecture; it would depenu, undoubtedly, on the quantity of profit resulting from the East India trade allotted to that port, the total profit upon the articles being divded into six or seven purs, ac ording to the number of the ports among which the trade is proposed to be di-tributed ; if the sixth- or seventh part allotted to Bristol was so- considerable as to defray the expense of such construction, I should think the expense would be sustained. Do you not consider, that a long line of coast affords more facility to the arriving ship to smuggle her cargo, than a port situa'e close to the entrance of the Channel, having all the accommodation of legal quays and wharfs, such as would meet the approbation of the Boards of Excise and Customs ? — The great r extent of coast any ship has to traverse, of course the greater the opportunity of smuggling, Ir\ a safe and convenient port, situate at the entrance of the British Channel, which might have such legal quays and whaifs and storehouses, as are approved of by the Boards of Excise and Customs, could be found, would not you consider the revenue more secure, than by proceeding with the ship up Channel, liable to all such detentions as occur both in peace and war, by anchoring in the Downs, Margate Roads, and other situations, •previous to her arrival at her port of delivery ? — Ceteris paribus, I think it would ; but i should not think a port, even at the extremity of the coast so safe (Falmouth we will suppose' for the revenue, should the trade be laid open, as I should conceive the port of London to b>, should the trade remain with the East-India Company, or any other great company who have no temptation, nor the means of smuggling out the cargo, always laying out of consideration the smuggling which may be effected by the ships. officers of their own private adventures. Do you consider the difference between a respectable merchant's house and the East-India Company, as making the difference ? — In the revenue 3 E I know. 294 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, I know very little of the respectability of merchants ; we treat all mer- Esq. chants alike; I, certainly, according to my experience of merchants, ' * ' should not think it safe to expose them to this temptation. What ground have you for thinking that a merchant of the first respec- tability cannot so well resist the temptation as the persons who have the direction of the East-India Company ? — For that very principle upon which the tenor of my evidence is grounded ; the affairs of a great com- pany must always be conducted by a few persons; but the proprietors at large would participate in any profits resulting from the illicit trade, whereas individuals would put the whole of that profit into their own individual pockets ; 1 consider that as the leading principle which per- vades the whole of my testimony ; and, in addition to that, as I before stated, a great company has not the means ; they are less effectual instru- ments for smuggling than individuals are, because the illicit trade must be conducted through an inconvenient system of organization, founded on written resolutions, written orders, 8cc. which must go through a great length of formality, and into the hands of a great number of persons, by which the scheme might become known, and expose the projectors to considerable hazard of discovery in the execution. These are the fun- damental principles of the whole of my evidence. In the Company's ships, are not a great part of those articles of which the revenue is defrauded, not belonging to the Company, but belonging to persons coming home, or to individuals belonging to the ship, and not part of the manifest of the ship ? — I understand the smuggling in general to consist of goods belonging to the officers of the ship : passengers, of course, will have things; they however will be comparatively small; the bulk of the smuggling, I understand, to be generally the captain's and officers' private adventures. That forms the great proportion of the articles of smuggling ? — Yes ; I cannot keep out of my mind their encroaching upon the cargo, if it is ever done ; I do not know whether it is or not. As far as relr.tes to tl at part of the cargo which does not belong to the Company, what distinction would you make between the East-India Company and a merchant ? — I attach nothing whatever to the respecta- bility where there is no temptation, or much less temptation and much less means of effecting the purpose ; respectability has nothing to do with it What would you state as the difference between that part of the cargo which EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 395 which does not belong to the Company, and that which would belong to John Vivian^ a merchant in a private ship? — No other difference than this, that the Esq. person who does it is certainly lia'ole to visitation from his employers ; that * v ** is one reason that may operate perhaps, in some degree, as a check; whe- ther it docs or not, is impossible for me to say, I am afiaid not so effec- tually as it ought; but with respect to any thing else, I see no material difference between the goods of that private individual, and the goods of an individual merchant. Does not that constitute a great part of the smuggling now existing £ — I believe it does ; but my apprehension is, that in any other mode, not the private adventure but the cargo itself would become the subject of smug- gling, which in the East-India Company's ships I apprehend is not the case, f jv the reasons that I have before assigned : I beg to be understood, that I by no means apprehend that there ever has been, a time when there has been no smuggling out of East-India ships, or that the time ever can occur when there will be no smuggling out of East India ships ; I consider it impossible 10 prevent it entirely ; but if we preserve the cargo entire, the private adventures are not of so much consequence. Do you think that the villages of Kingston and Cawsand contain more active and ingenious smugglers than the town and neighbourhood of Deal, Dover, Margate, and the bin^s of the Thames? — They are all so ing nious, that I do not know how to give a preference to the one over the other; they are all very competent to their business. Do you know of the practice of sending to Guernsey and Jersey for wine and spirits having existed since the government have allowed the navy their wine and spirits duty free ? — I do not know it, and 1 think it is highly probable that it may have ceased ; but at the same time, I feel-it a duty incumbent on me to add, that they do supply themselves notwith- standing, I believe from smugglers, perhaps over and above their allow- ance; the allowance is given in certain portions, and I believe to certain officers ; I speak particularly as to officers of the navy, as to wine, and I suppose other articles in the same way, that does not preclude them from taking in smuggled goods from the smuggling vessels and from the shore. The practice of sending vessels to Gjernsey, may, for aught I know, have been discontinued ; and I think it is very likely it lias ; I have not heard of it of late years ; but \ have h ard of ships of war receiving smuggled goods from smugglers in the port of lymouth, and 1 do remember one of our officers actually seizing one of the king's frigates, or a ship of war, and he 3 E 2 thought 8@g MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE J'ivian, thought it a very great hardship that he should not be able to carry het Esq. into condemnation ; that was many years ago also. ~V Has it never happened that excise vessels have been in the same situ- ation ? — I have no recollection of such a circumstance ; but the same doc- trine would hold there ; she is a king's ship equally ; a king's ship cannot be forfeited to the king. Do not you know, that in peace, the revenue depends upon the king's cruisers for its protection in preventing smuggling? — Certainly, it de- pends in part, because they are co-operating with the revenue cruisers ; a modern act of parliament allows them to se:ze. Does the exemption that is allowed to the navy from duties upon wine and spirits extend to tea, and articles which are the produce of the East- Indies ? — No. Does not the circumstance of the notoriety of the periods when the India ships generally arrive, and in fleets, tend to produce a greater secu- rity against smuggling, than could be expected where ships would arrive singly, and at uncertain peiiods of the year ? — A very great additional se- curity, indeed, is derived from that circumstance. If a person were disposed to smuggle an entire cargo, could not such person, desirous of engaging in this adventure, employ a neutral rather than a British ship, with more safety and advantage to himself? — That depends upon circumstances; because he might possibly not have the same confidence in a neutral that he had in a British ship ; the neutral might deceive him, and even run away with his cargo ; but certainly if a man had confidence in a neutral, it would be more convenient to him to , employ that neutral than a British ship, because some of the forfeitures that would attach upon a British ship would not attach upon a neutral, unless detected in the very act of smuggling, or of having smuggled ; in which case she would be liable to seizure, notwithstanding her being a neutral. Is the captain of a British ship, taken in the- act of smuggling, liable to any punishment ? — Certainly, he would be liable to be sent into the navy ; and I know of some cases, in which the captains of smuggling vessels have been sent on board men of war. Is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 39 7 John Vivian, Is the captain of a neutral ship liable to punishment ? — Anybody found Esq. in the act of cairying smuggled goods, I think would be liable; but the ' v 1* acts of parliament are so numerous, that is impossible to bear all their pro- visions in mind : the Hovering Act of the 24th of the king extends to all 1 i ships whatever. Any ship found at anchor or hovering, having on board moie than six pounds of tea, would be forfeited. By the act of the 47th. of the king, there is a remarkable distinction with regard to vessels : the Hovering Act of the 24th extended to all ships within lour leagues, which was afterwards extended to eight leagues ; but this Act extends it to a hundred leagues, provided the vessel is British owned or British navigated ; there are also penalties on captains putting goods out at sea. Does that apply to captains of foreign ships ?— I should apprehend not ; but a reference to the statute would immediately decide that. Is not great security dei ived to the revenue from the necessity under which a vessel is placed, of proceeding as directly as possible from the port of clearance to the port of delivery ? — There is nobody can decide whether she does or not ; the persons on board are the only persons who can determine that ; and the only provision that I know of in our law upon the subject is, that a vessel shall be but a certain time coming from Gravesend to the time of her discharge in the river Thames. Supposing the case that a vessel is placed under such circumstances by her orders that she is obliged to come as directly as possible from the port of clearance to the port of delivery ? — Certainly, the more direct her course, the greater security to the revenue. This very Hovering Act is founded upon that principle, because a vessel not proceeding directly, would be deemed hovering. In cases where the captain of a ship is obliged to assign detailed and suffi- cient reasons to his employers for any deviation in his voyage, such employ- ers being free from all suspicion of illicit trade or participation in illicit pro- fits during such voyage, is not a great security against smuggling derived to the revenue, which could not be obtained under other circumstances ? — I think there would ; at the same time it is impossible for the revenue in most cases to ascertain the fact, nor have they the means of inquiring into it ; supposing it so to be, the consequence follows, that there is less chance of smuggling. Is there not a less chance of smuggling to a very considerable extent ? — Certainly. Are S98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Vivian, Are you of opinion that the Indian and China trade, coming at present Esq. in those large ships in which it does, with the precaution taken bv the crui- *"" — -V"- — J sers, and putting officers on board, is liable to any material degree of smug- gling coming up to the Thames ? — Not if the officers do their duty. As you have been for so many years solicitor to the excise, and must from your official experience be peculiarly acquainted with the various acts of smuggling that have been practised in the import trade from China and India, though probably not with thoie which may possibly be devised if the out-ports are opened to that trade in ships of 350 tons ; are you of opinion, alter mature consideration, that bringing the whole import trade from India and China to the East-India docks and warehouses in the port of London, is less liable to fraud upon the revenue, than if the out- ports were so opened ? — It is my opinion that it is less liable. Are you of opinion, that in regard to the export trade to India and China, and the Continent, the revenue would be more exposed to the frauds which may be committed by re landing piohibited articles, or articles upon which a large drawback has been allowed, if the out ports were opened to that trade in ships of 350 tons, than if it was confined to the port of London ? — The more numerous the Dorts are, the greater would be the chance of smuggling, unless the ou'-ports were laid under regulations equally efficient with those of London; but 1 a prehend the port of London to be in a better state of security than most of the out- ports, principally because it is under the immediate supeiintenJence of the Board of Excise. Is not the danger attending these kind of frauds of re-landing articles, in proportion, in a great measure, to the smahness of the ships and the length of river through which they must pass from their port to go to sea ? — The diminution of the tonnage of the ship- certainly affords considerable facility to smuggling ; and the gi eater the length of river through which a ship has to pass, the greater in general will be the opportunity of re- landing the goods. Are you of opinion that duties payable ad valoiem on home consump- tion of articles from India and China, would be ascertained with equal accuracy, if sales of them were licensed at the out- ports, as they are now at the fixed and open sales at the India House ? — Certainly not ; for the reasons that I* have before stated. Are you of opinion that any mode of collecting the revenue arising from EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 399 from the India and China trade can be devised, so simple in its execution, at John Pauan, so little expense, so little exposed to frauds, and so free from the objection ksq. of increasing cost, from the necessity of increasing water-guard and officers, v as the mode in which that important business is now performed at the India House in London ? — I am very decidedly of opinion, that there cannot. Are you aware that from the out-ports now, and in vessels of very srrall size, the exportation of goods liable to a very heavy duty, for home con- sumption, or upon which a very large drawback has been received, is now allowed ? — I am aware of it ; and in my opinion it exposes the revenue to so much risk, that nothing but the great accommodation afforded to the merchandize of the country could justify the measure. What goods could be exported from the out ports in the event of the opening the India trade, as proposed, which cannot now be legally exported from the out ports in vessels of 100 tons and upwards ? — I am not prepared to answer that question. If the officers of the king's cruisers, of the excise and customs cruisers, did their duty with a port at the entrance of the Channel, would not the revenue be tetter protected under those circumstances, than by the ship's coming up the Channel, and finding her way to the port of London ? —That would still depend upon the persons by whom that trade was carried on ; it would vary very much from being in the hands of a great company, or in the hands of individuals. Does it, in your opinion, depend upon the look out of the government and the excise, or upon the persons carrying on the trade ? — If there was no intention to smuggle on the part of the merchant, it would supersede all necessity whatever of guard, the guard being only a check upon illicit intentions. To you apprehend it to be possible, by any guards the government can introduce, to prevent smuggling to any important extent ? — It is very dif- ficult, I believe, more especially in time of peace. [The Witness withdrew. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, ice. 401 Sir CHARLES WARRE MALET, Bart, was called in, and examined SirC.lV.Makt, as follows: ^ art - Mr. Impey.~] Have the goodness to state to the Committee, how long you were in the service of the East-India Company ? — Eight and twenty years. Have the goodness to state in what year you went to India ? — I went there in the year 1770. In what department of the East-India Company's service ? — In the civil department ; as a writer. Upon what establishment ? — The Bombay establishment. In what parts of India were you between the years 1770 and 1775 ? — Between the years 1770 and 1775, I made an excursion from Bombay, for the purpose of obtaining information, up the gulph of Persia ; we touched at Muscat, Gombroon and Bushire, and from thence proceeded to Bussora, where the Company have an establishment ; after that I visited Surat and Cambay. Were not you, subsequently to that period, resident with the nabob of Cambay, and for what time ? — I was, after that, appointed resident to the nabob of Cambay, a Mahomedan power in the gulph of Cambay, and resided there, I think, nearly ten years. During your residence at Cambay in that capacity, were there any Eu- ropeans in that country ? — There were no other Europeans attached to the residency ; I had occasional visitors, and during my residency, there was. an English armv came there to the assistance of Ra^obah. Did you not afterwards reside at Surat, and in what capacity ? — During my residence at Cambay I had been appointed Persian interpreter to the settlement of Suiat, and in that capacity I occasionally resided there; I was likewise appointed to the council of Surat by the Court of Directors, but I did net take my seat in that capacity. Were not you, subsequently to that period, appointed Persian inter- preter and secretary at Bombay? — On being recalled from the residency of Cambay, I was appointed Persian interpreter to the government, and private secretary to the governor of Bombay. 3 F Subsequently "V™ 402 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir CW. Maid, Subsequently to that period, were not you sent on a mission to the Hart. Malabar coast ? — I was sent on a mission to the Siddee government ot ' v ' Jizzera Jessore, likewise called Dunda Rajpore. &'- Were not you also employed on a mission to Poonah ? — I think it was in the year 1785 that the government-general, then under Mr. Hasting?, applied to the government at Bombay for its acquiescence in my being sent minister plenipotentiary to the court of Poonah. In consequence of that appointment did you not cross Hindostan from Bombay to Delhi, or the neighbourhood of Delhi, and from thence proceed to Calcutta ? — Subsequent to the treaty of Salbey with the Mahratta states, Madajee Scindiah had been, by one of the stipulations of that treaty, made the mediator of all intercourse between the English government and the Mahratta states : to conciliate his approbation of my mission, I was ordered to proceed from the western side of India, to wait upon Madajee Scindiah: I accordingly proceeded from Bombay to Surat ; from Surat I proceeded across the Peninsula, and joined Madajee Scindiah, then in camp at Matura, between Delhi and Agra ; and after having had audiences of him and the king, who was likewise in camp there at that time, Mr. James Anderson, who was resident with Scindiah, procured his approbation to my appointment, and I proceeded to Calcutta. Did you afterwards proceed as resident to Poonah ? — On my arrival at Calcutta, Sir John Mc Pherson was in the chair, Mr. Hastings having proceeded to Europe ; and having received his instructions and directions, I proceeded from Calcutta to Bombay by sea, and from thence to Poonah, How long did you continue to be resident at Poonah? — I went there in the year 1786, and remained there till the year 1797, to the best of my recollection. During that period did you not attend the Mahratta army in the war against Tippoo ? — Soon after my arrival at Poonah, having had an audience with the Peishwa, I proceeded to join the minister, who was then at the head of an army acting against Tippoo. Were not you acquainted with the Persian and Hindoostanee languages? —I certainly was acquainted with them at that time. During so long a residence in so many different parts of India, had you not HAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 403 not many opportunities of observing and studying the characters of the Sir C W. Mulct* natives oi India ? — I certainly had opportunhics. Bart. Are you of opinion, from such observation, that they are a people pecu- liarly unchangeable in their manners, habits and opinions? — I think both Hindoos and Mahomedans are peculiarly attached to their own manners, habits and opinions. From your observation and knowledge of the character of the Hindoo people, and of the natives of this country, what, in your opinion, would be the consequence if Engli hmen, unacquainted with the manners and languages of the natives, were permitted in any great numbers to go into, or reside in-,- the interior of the country of India ? — F think from the great difference of the manners and customs of the natives of this country and the natives of that, there would be a' probability of great confusion resulting from an indiscriminate intercourse with the people of India. Are you ofopinion that such indiscriminate intercourse would be attended with mischievous consequences to the peace and happiness of the natives of India ? — I do not see any possibility of the happiness and peace of the inhabitants of India being improved by such an indiscriminate intercourse j. on the contrary, I think it is very likely that great disturbances might ensue from such intercourse, and consequently unhappiness result. If such disturbances were to ensue in the interior of the country, are there any adequate means, at present, of punishing any Englishmen who should be the authors of such disturbances? — The parts of the country that I allude to are those under the native governments, and I presume there would be no adequate means of punishing, but by resorting to the power of the native governments, or to personal resistance. Have the goodness to state whether, among the natives of Hindostan, there are not very great differences in point of character; I mean among the Hindoos ; and what thuse differences are? — I think that the manners of the people of India not only partake of the difference of character incidental to all individuals of all countries, but that they are greatly- diversified by the classification of the natives of the country into different sects. Have the goodness to state what those different casts or sects are, and what are the general characters of the persons comprehended within each of them? — In the classifications of the natives, particularly Hindoos, to whom I allude, there are casts, whose hereditary practice it is to devute 3 F 2. themselves 4 i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC.W.Malct, themselves to the lowest occupations of servitude ; there is the commercial Bart. class ; there are military tribes j there is a priestly tribe : all these are *— — y ' characterized by very striking and peculiar traits of manners; as for in- stance, those whose habits of life are servile, are extremely submissive ; the commercial is industrious, thrifty, and likewise, I may say, extremely obsequious in his intercourse with mankind ; the military tribes are gene- Tally high-minded and irritable ; the Brahmin has feelings of his sacerdotal character, and is particularly sensible with respect to any violation of that ' character. Would not such traders, as have been alluded to before, going into the interior of the country, be likely to commit involuntary offences, that might be extremely dangerous to them, against the military or sacerdotal classes of the Hindoos ? — I think it is very likely, from the difference of the man- ners of our countrymen from those of the natives of India, that they may unwarily and undesignedly be involved in violations of those observances which the people of India of those different classes may expect. Would not even touching them, or passing by them while eating, and letting the shadow of an European fall upon them, very seriously offend them ? — The touching of a Brahmin by an European would involve the necessity of ablution ; the passing near the place where they are cooking their victuals, and the shade of an European falling upon their culinary operations and their cookery, would certainly be looked upon as a pollu- tion of the food. What would be the consequence of that pollution ? — Most likely throw- ing it away, and considerable anger on the part of the person who might be so inconvenienced. In such cases, would not the military casts of Hindoos express the strongest resentment, to the great danger of the person offending ? — I do not know that it would so immediately affect the Rajpoots, who are the military tribe ; but as there are many Brahmins amongbt the soldiery of the country, it certainly would be particularly resented by them. If such Englishmen, as have been stated, were permitted to go into the interior of India, would not, in your opinion, quarrels with the natives be probable, if not inevitable ? — Most undoubtedly. Have you observed, during your residence in India, that even English- men who have resided long at the presidencies, have found inconvenien- ces from the ignorance of the natives of the interior, when they have gone into EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 405 into the interior ? — I have known gentlemen who have been in the habit Sir C.JV.Mu of residing in our own settlements, where the submissiveness of the natives Bart, in general prepares them to expect the same amongst the foreign powers, have found a very different reception on going amongst the natives under their own government ; I have likewise known two instances, one of which was fatal; the first, of a gentleman at Poonah, who had recently arrived in the country, and having got the command of a regular corps in the Peishwa's service, was, on some rash conduct, on his part, towards the minister, who then commanded the army, on leaving the Durbar tent, shot on his way home; the other instance was of a woman, a Mrs. Hall, married I believe to an Englishman of that name ; but she was cer- tainly a French woman, who had the nominal command of a corps in the Peishwa's service, and on occasion of some haughty treatment of some na- tive, was imprisoned in a Hill Fort, where she would probably have been put to death, had I not interfered in her behalf. State what the differences are in the manners of the natives of Hindos- tan, at the Presidencies and in the interior of India? — The difference cer- tainly is very great. Wherein does it consist ? — There is a difference in their general deport- ment; there is a more general submissiveness to Europeans ; and I suppose they feel, that from the protection of our courts, they may go to a certain degree of submission, without particular bad consequences ultimately re- sulting; but that not being the case under the native governments, irritability once provoked may be attended with more dangerous conse- quences, than from the anger of a person who receives ill treatment under our own governments. Do you think, from your observation, that Englishmen in general treat the natives so well upon their first arrival in India, as after by long resi- dence they have become well acquainted with them ? — I certainly think that Europeans, before they become acquainted with the native cha- racter, are more in the habit of treating them with disrespect than after- wards. Are you of opinion, that it is peculiarly incumbent on the local govern- ments in India, with a view to their stability, to be careful in the utmost degree to avoid exciting any discontents among the natives subject to their government ? — I think that in. a country where the mass of the po- pulation may probably be sixty millions ; where the British force, includ- ing the native army, may amount to probably 150,000; where the Euro- pean v_ 406 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir C.fV.Malet, pean part of that force may not probably exceed 25,000; our power must Bart. mainly depend upon opinion ; and in as far as the conciliation of that opi- nion must be requisite to our safety, I should think that putting it to a risk by adding to the dangers, an indiscriminate intercourse should certainly be avoided. Are you of opinion that an influx of Englishmen into the interior of our dominions in India, where there are no courts of justice holding cri- minal jurisdiction over Englishmen, would tend to create discontents among the natives, and thereby shake their allegiance to our government ? — I think it not at all improbable, that in the event cf an indiscriminate influx of Englishmen, which may probably be under some impressions not friendly to the constituted English authorities now in India, both in their. conduct and in their language, they may evince symptoms that would be rather derogatory to the dignity of the government there established. 1 think it but too likely, that the natives of that country, and the native powers of that country, seeing our own countrymen manifest a conduct of disrespect to the constituted authorities there existing, might be disposed to prosecute any evil dispositions that might be pre-existing among them ; at the same time, I think it not unlikely that indisposition of the natives to our countrymen and to our government, may be engendered by the ob- servance of such language and such conduct in the indiscriminate influx of Europeans. If such indisposition in the minds of the natives towards the English, as you have stated in your last answer, were engendered, are you of opi- nion, that the native princes who are at present in alliance with the Com- pany, would be ready and willing to take advantage of it against us? — I look upon the alliances that have been recently formed with the native powers, to hav? arisen out of the principle of coercion and ascendancy; and in as far as there may be in all governments a desire of regaining inde- pendence, I think it not improbable, that if power and opportunity served, they might be incited to take advantage of the indisposition previously enr gendered. If a free trade were enacted between this country and India, with a re- striction to the p -esidencies, and that no trader should enter the interior without the licence of the local governments, in your opinion would not the local governments have great difficulties in refusing such licences to any persons who applied for them i I think that the importunity would be so great, as to cause considerable difficulty in the necessity of opposing them. ■While EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 407 While you were in India, were there not several Europeans at the pre- Sir CIV. Maid, sidencies who were very anxious to get up the country > — 1 do not, cf my Bart, own knowledge, recollect any instance of the kind ; but I know it was » — the general supposition, that Europeans were in general wishing to get up the country, and I know they frequently did get in, and probably without any licence or any permission. Do you not think, that in the event of a free trade, the governments would be continually pressed for such licences by traders, who could not sell their goods at the presidencies ? — In the natural persuasion of most men, that they could do their business better in their own persons than by agents, I think it is very likely that there would be that importunity. From your observation of the natives of Hindostan, do you think they have generally any want or any desire for the articles or manufactures of this country ?— This question, I humbly conceive, divides itself into two parts ; the first, with respect to the disposition of the native governments to encourage the introduction ; and the second, with respect to the indi- vidual natives as to their disposition to receive them. With respect to the first part of the question, if it is the pleasure of the Committee, I will read to them an extract of a letter which I had the honour to address to the Governor General in the year 1788, particularly on the subject of the dis- position of the government of the Peishwah to encourage an additional commercial intercourse : in the former part of the letter there is a general statement of the then existing state of our commerce with the Mahratta government, with tables annexed : — what I shall have the honour of sub- mitting to the Committee, is the conclusion from the whole statement : — ". In concluding this address, I shall endeavour, by a slight sketch of the " genius of this government, as far as it relates to the subject, to meet, the " ultimate object of your Lordship in Council, of enabling you to form a "judgment, how far the state of our commercial intercourse with it, as i c above described, is capable of improvement, to the advantage of both." — [It may be necessary to inform the Committee I did this in consequence of his Lordship's particular desire to increase our commerce with the Ma- ratta country, and to add to the imports of our commodities. That was written to Lord Cornwallis ?— Yes. In what part of the country were you when you wrote that letter ? — At Poonah. I was then minister plenipotentiary to the government of Poo- nah.] — " The Peshwah's administration is in every act, more or less, in- " fiuenced by that parsimony which so invariably and so strongly marks <( «< << << 403 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir CM \Mdlet, " the Bramin character, while, narrow in its genius, and grasping In its ^ arf - " policy, it frequently mistakes the mode of gratifying its ruling passion ; -v ' ' averse from, and probably ignorant of, the systematic and equitable prin- ciples on which alone commerce can be rendered flourishing, by en- couraging the industry in the security and happiness of the subject, its chief attention seems directed to conquest and depredation, giving em- " ployment at once to the desultory military spirit of the Mahrattas, and <' supplying the state and chief individual Bramins with wealth and M power." Commerce, but more especially foreign, less understood, would be more slow and precarious in its operation : The arrangements necessary lor its effectual protection, are incompatible with that spirit of expe- dience and venality by which every thing is influenced at Poona ; they would in some measure trench upon the arrogant principles of aristocra- cy, by a general diffusion of wealth; and interfere with the system of farms, which is universally adopted from the smallest branches of the " customs, to the disposal of provinces ; whence the subject, instead of experiencing the uniform and vigorous protection cf a wise govern- " ment, is cruelly sacrificed to the rapacity and oppression of the highest " bidder. " The state of the numerous ports of the Mahratta empire on the coast " of Malabar and Guzerat, but more especially the former, evinces a " spirit hostile to commerce ; and I have not a doubt, were its fleet equal " to the end, but that it would be instantly converted to the same pre- datory purpose at sea, as its armies are by land ; as it now is against all those whom it can master. This, perhaps, is fortunate for us, as pre- senting a bar to the admission and rivalship of our European neigh- bours ; though certainly the customs of a single year in a well frequent- ed port, not to mention the numberless advantages of population, &c. would greatly exceed the profits et plunder, after deducting the ' expense, which must be great, in keeping up a number of piratical " vessels. " The rich and commercial kingdom of Guzerat (every town of which u is or was inhabited by rich Banians, a tribe as attached to commerce as ** any other tribe of Hindoos to its hereditary pursuits) flourished infmite- " ly more by its traffic, even during the violent convulsions of ttie Mogul " government previous to the establishment of the Mahratta power, than it " ever has since that event ; though time and tranquillity have given am- " pie leisure for doing away the effects of conquest and the transfer of " dominion. " The Moguls, magnificent and ostentatious, required every article of " luxury; towns and villages grew out of this spirit : the Bramins and Mah- " rattas y cc EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 409 fc rattas, less refined and more par irilo'niouS, are averse from and igr.o- S'irC W.Malct, " rant of those costly modes of expense ; hence those towns and cities, " deprived of the cause of their existence, are mouldering fast into ruin, " and their wealthier inhabitants ha\e sunk under, or fled from, the rapa- ** city of their new masters. " In this cause might probably be traced the seeds of the present " drooping commercial slate of all those provinces of Hindostan that Bart. " reputation tor security, since the two ahortive expedition^ from Bombay, * v — — ' " nas greatly tended to promote its increase and population ; as the " wealthier Bramins have, in consequence, begun to emnl y some part of '* their hidden riches in building; which single circumstance necessarily " gives employment to a great number, and a great variety of artificers, " as the wants attendant on large buildings are endless. " The circumstances which are above enumerated, of the great weal.h *' of the Bramins, and the great increase of Poona in buildings and inha- " bitants, must, I should imagine, cause a greater demand tor the arti- " cles, which can be furnished only from Bomb iy, than heretofore ; but " from what I can observe of the present genius of this government, I confess that I am inclined much to doubt the practicability of improv- ing or extending our commerce, by any extraordinary means adopted for that purpose; and as i believe that the common course of causes arising from the state of the society has already operated its utmost ef- " fects, and will continue so to do ; so do I think, that an endeavour to " improve or extend them, would rather tend to awaken jealousy anu sus- " picion of our intentions, than to answer the liberal end proposed by " your Lordship in Council." What is the date of that letter ? — In the year 1788: so far as to the genius of the Mahratta government : the next part of the question was, as to the inclination of the nat-ves to receive European commodities. I think there certainly does not appear either to exist a want or an inclination, except amongst rich individuals, at the presidencies of our own government : the want of inclination seems to be the permanent cause in the manners of the people ; the deficiency of the means seems to be a growing evil, from the decrease of the influx of specie from Europe, which, as far as my irv formation goes, is now confined to the slender supplies from the gulphs of Persia and Arabia j and were there any prospect of forcing our manu- factures, I humbly presume that, in as far as our native fellow subjects ire India are in that relation entitled to the fostering care of govern- 1 menr, it could not be wise or magnanimous to encroach upon the slender means which they possess for their own scanty maintenance, and the pay- ment of our revenue. Are you of opinion, that the general population of Hindostan, by that meaning the cultivators of the land, have the means, if they had the de- sire, of purchasing any English manufactures ? — I certainly conceive that they have not. If EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 411 If they had the means, do you think that, in the interior of the country, Sir CW.Mdet, they have any taste for any British manufactures ? — I do not know any of Bart, our manufactures for which they have a particular taste, except for our I — __- v ._ — ) fire-arms ; that indeed is not general ; the princes who wish to embody regular corps, are desirous of getting our fire-arms and our ammunition : there may be, perhaps, spectacles and a little hardware ; I believe that nearly comprises any articles which I have seen a disposition in them to purchase. Have the goodness to state who are the principal consumers of Euro- ropean articles at the presidencies, speaking particularly of Bombay, as you have been more acquainted with that presidency than any other ? — There is a tribe of people at Bombay, that are peculiar to the western side of India, the Parsees ; those people give somewhat into the manners of the Europeans ; they have no repugnance to wine, like the rest of the natives of India; and they, as I understand, give into the pleasures of the table, and frequently entertain European gentlemen. You mean, that they are the principal consumers, among the natives, of European commodities at Bombay ? — Yes. It may be necessary for the Committee to keep in mind, that it is now fifteen years since I left India ; there may, perhaps, have been a considerable alteration even in the manners of the Parsees, since I left India. When you were at Bombay, was it true that many of the natives had establishments of six or eight carriages, meaning European carriages, and several of them with superb equipages ? — I am not acquainted with that fact; I believe some of them had equipages, but as to the number there mentioned, or any extraordinary splendour, or any thing of that kind, I am not acquainted with it. Had they their houses superbly furnished with European furniture ? — I do not recollect ever having been in the house of a Parsee of any consi- deration ; but their shops were always well stocked with European articles. At that time, was there a demand, among the richer natives, for the finer and more elegant manufactures of Britain ; elegant guns, pistols, watches, and articles of that description ?— 1 hey certainly were always very acceptable to them, as presents; but I never understood that they were particularly extensive in their purchases of those kinds of articles: I have frequently presented them myself, and they have been always very gratefully received. 3 G 2 Do 4I 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir C. IV Mulct, Do you think that, in the event of a free trade, there is any probability Bart. of a materially increased sale of the manufactures of this country amon» the natives ot India? — It may be necessary to observe to the Committee, that I have never myself been practically engaged in commerce; my general view of it has been in my diplomatic situations ; and as far as it has been necessary for me to contemplate it in thai point of view, I never saw that there was any great room for an increase of demand for the manufac- tures of this country, in any part of Hindostan with which I have been acquainted. Do you think that, un-ier the present system, the opulent natives of India have full means of procuring any European articles that they may wish tor ? —The three presidencies of India I look upon as emporiums for the whole country of Hindostan ; and I believe that the natives of the whole of the continent of Hindostan may have easy communication with those presidencies, through the agents that are residing at them. Did it appear to you, while you were in India/that the supply of European commodities carried to the markets, was fully equal to the de- mand on the part of the natives ? — I never heard of a deficiency ; nor was I, during my residence and during my journies in different parts of Hin- dostan, ever applied to for encreasing the quantities that had been im- ported. Do not you know that the East-India Company, from their anxiety to encourage British manufactures, have often exported more of them to India than they had occasion for to answer the demand? — I do not recol- lect, or my own knowledge, that such has been the case ; but it is the impression on my mind, from what I have been in the habit of hearing. Do yon mean, what you were in the habit of hearing when you were in India ? — Yes. Are not the people of India a trading and manufacturing people, that are fully adequate to supply their own mercantile wants ? — I conceive them to possess manufactures fully equal to the supply of all their mer- cantile wants. Are they not quick in' learning any European arts that they find useful to them ? — l'hey are certainly extremely ingenious, docile and industrious, and quick in learning such European arts as they find useful to them. In EAST INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 41* Tn your opinion, was the Company's government, when yo'i were in SifCff Malef, India, adequate to the purposes of enforcing good order, and thereby Birt. promoting the happiness of the natives under our government in India ? — v v ' -I presume that the present prosperous state of the British empire in India, affords the best answer to that question : Further I beg leave humbly to submit, that I think the permanent goodness and efficiency of any vicarial government, must primarily depend upon the wisdom and virtue of the power whence it emanates; and secondarily on the undeviating strictness of its responsibility to that power ; and as from the nature of the Company's organization, I should suppose its servants and delegates funher removed from the partialities of the ruling power, and more exposed to the s rictest scrutiny of its supremacy ; while on the other hand the same organization removesall a- prehension of that concentration of partialities or attachment which might tend to internal domestic danger, I humblv presume no dele- gation of government could afford a fairer prospect of efficiency over our Indian empire, than that of the East-India Company, whose servants, if duly cherished, will not cease to emulate the great examples that have been set them in a Ctive or & Hastings. I think that the aeknowledgt d and conspicuous merits of the Company's civil and military servants, in constructing and upholding the mighty structure of our Indian empire, entitle them to the confidence of their King and country. In your opinion, in the event of a free trade, will it not be essential to the stability of our empire in India, to continue to the local governments their present powers of removing such Englishmen as may misconduct themselves in India r — In a former part of my evidence, I think I adverted to the probability of an indiscriminate influx of Europeans, being impressed with unfavourable sentiments to the existing authorities in India ; from the danger of the prevalence of such an indisposition, and from an addition to the numbers of that description ot people tor whom the order was originally made, I presume there must be an additional necessity for the exercise of that authority. In your opinion, may not the taking away the great commercial advan- tages now enjoyed by the East India Company, ultimately greatly injure the British interests in India? — In as iar as tne exercise of the commercial power of the Company has hitherto been blended with that of their political, • I humbly conceive that any interruption in the stiuctureof that power, might tend to weaken the general edifice in the opin on of the natives ; used, as they have been, to view it as a great whole, inasmuch as it might have a tendency to undermine the commercial intercourse between the two countries, it might certainly injure the interests of this nation. [Examined- Bart. 41* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE (Examined by the Committee.) SirC. W.Malet, Does not the principal part of the import and export trade of India, flow to the different presidencies and principal seaports along the coast, where there are civil and military establishments under the British government ?— > Undoubtedly; but there are native independent ports, where may be im- ports and exports, of which I am not acquainted. Are not the Company's exports to India always sold at the presidencies, or at their subordinate factories along the coast ? — I believe invariably so, to the best of my knowledge. When you were at Poonah, were not advertisements, in respect of the Company's public sales, sent to the residency, to circulate through the city of Poonah, for the information of the inhabitants ? — It was not the practice to send them to me as resident. Do you know whether any native agents or merchants from Poonah, ever attended those sales, or wrote to their agents at Bombay to purchase goods for them at such sales ? — I know that the merchants and shroffs had agents at Bombay, but lam not acquainted with the particular state of their commercial intercourse. Is it within your knowledge, that the principal merchants at Poonah had native agents at Bombay, for the purposes of their commerce ?— I cannot say that it is specifically within my knowledge, though I have no doubt of it. During the time you resided at Poonah, do you know whether any of the principal private merchants at Bombay found it necessary, or worth while, to go into the interior, to sell their goods ; this question having no reference to suttlers or persons of that description following the British armies ? — I do not recollect the existence of such a fact. Do you know whether the goods of the interior are not brought, in great abundance, to the principal seaports, by the natives, and cheaper than if this was done by European agency ? — I humbly presume all the ope- rations of the natives, with respect to conveyance through the country, might be done at a much cheaper rate than could be effected by Europeans acting in their own person. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 415 Do you know whether European merchants would not experience diffi- SirC W.Ma'ei, culties and obstructions in the provision of such goods, whicli native agents Bart. would not meet with, or might more easily obviate ? — Doubtless. Under this state of the trade of India, and considering that the private merchants do not find it for their interest to go much into the interior, is it Jikelv that the trade, being now opened as proposed, would occasion any material alterations in this respect ? — There might be more of the agents, from the increase of the trade, should that increase be admissible ; but I can perceive no additional inconvenience, because they would be the sa.ne native agents. Considering that the interests of the European traders are thus confined, in a great degree, to the presidencies and some principal seaports, do you think that the influx of Europeans into the interior of India, would not be proportionably limited? — I presume it would depend upon the govern- ments where they imported, to give or refuse permission lor their entering into the interior. Under those circumstances, would it not become unnecessary for many of them to proceed into the interior ; supposing always that their interests chiefly lay at the seaports ?•— Their opinion of the necessity I would not pretend to judge of; but as to the iact I think it would be unne- cessary. Of the few Europeans that would thus find it necessary, or have an in- terest to go into the interior of the country, might they not, in your opinion, be placed under such legal restraints in the Company's territories, as would be sufficient to prevent serious commotion ? — I cannot help thinking, that in the event of an indiscriminate influx ot Europeans, and those Europeans probably having rather an unfriendly impression with respect to the authorities of the country, being 'permitted to go into the interior, they might, notwithstanding the restrictions of government* occasionally cause disturbances. If such Europeans were to commit offences in the interior of the country, either against the natives or the constituted authorities, might they not, under the present regulations, be seized and sent to England ? — I am not exactly acquainted with the state of the regulations ; but it has always been impressed upon my mind, that the government had the power of sending disorderly persons to England, though I presume that that might in many eases be eluded. Have * J <5 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir C.W. Mulct, Have the goodness to state, from your extensive knowledge and expe- Barr. rience of the native governments in India, whether any European traders **- ' — y ' could penetrate, or reside for any length of time, in the territories of a native prince, without the permission of that prince ? — I should think not. Have the goodness to state, whether, in the. event of such European trader or others committing offences against the natives of this description, he would not be immediately seized by the native government, and ex- pelled the country? — According to the offence that he might commit against the government of the country, he might be proportionably punished; he might be put to death, he might be imprisoned, or he might be expelled. "iou have mentioned two instances of violent or intemperate conduct, on the part of two European officers in the Mahratta service, being severely punished ; are those the only two instances, during your know- ledge, of similar conduct ? — I think there was another instance of a Mr. Boyd, an American ; but I do not think it ever amounted to punishment; there was a bloody affray, but it did not, I believe, terminate in punishment to him personally ; he was obliged to make his retreat by force from an attack made upon him ; but what was the cause of the attack, or the cir- cumstances of it, I am not aware. If European traders were to go into the interior for the purposes of their commerce, and having, as they manifestly would have, an interest to conciliate the natives, do you think that they would be as likely as the officers above adverted to, to commit excesses against the natives ? — I think the question is one dependent entirely upon personal character ; with res- pect to the interest of the person, it certainly would be conciliation ; but whether his ignorance of the manners might not involve him unwarily in disputes, is a matter entirely of chance. Are there any part of the British territories in India, within your know- ledge, where judicial authority emanating from the British government is not exercised ? — I am not acquainted with the organization of the judicial authority of the British provinces. When you were in India, had you many native servants in your esta- blishment, private and public, that were commonly dressed in liveries or dresses of European cloth, made up according to the fashion of the country ?— During m diplomatic situation at Poonah, two companies of sepoys EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 4-1*7 sepoys were attached to it ; they were dressed in European cloths. I was StrO. JVM ilcf, afterwards in the administration of the government of Bombay ; all the Bart. attendants forming the retinue of the governor, were dressed in English '— — y > woollens ; I do not recollect that in my personal numerous establishment, my servants were dressed in European woollens. During your residence in Bombay, were there not many of the public servants attached to the different departments of government, and parti- cularly persons called Peons, also dressed in European woollens ? — It is to them I allude, that the servants forming the cavalcade or the retinue of the governor of Bombay, were dressed in English woollens : I believe the common attendants upon the offices, in the character of messengers, who are called Peons or Sepoys, were generally dressed in English woollens. Do you know whether those persons were not much pleased with such dresses ? — In as far as it was a badge of authority, it certainly was pleasing to them ; might I judge of its being pleasing to them as a matter of habit or dress, i should think there was no particular predilection for it. Would those persons, in your opinion, have preferred comelies, the common manufacture of the country ? — I presume that each individual of those men that I have just been describing, would, were he sent upon a message in which he was obliged to be out during the night, take his comely in addition to his woollen dress. As an article of dress to appear in abroad and in the day time ? — The comely is not an article of dress, it is only an article for the prevention of the inclemency of the weather. Is it not capable of being made into an article of dress ? — Doubtless it may be cut up ; but I never saw it. Be pleased to state whether English broad-cloth is not commonly used in the housings of elephants, camels and horses, of the richer natives of the country ? — Undoubtedly it is ; and in addition, it is used for their shoes ; among the richer Brahmins it is likewise used for a kind of surtout, with a cape that comes over their heads. During the time you were in India, were the native princes, or any of them, in the habit of dressing some of their soldiers in uniforms of woollen cloth ? — I believe thev were. 3 H Yoh 418 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON -THE SirC. W.Makt, You have stated, you were some time at Surat ; had not the nabob of Bart. Surat at that time a corps of attendants so dressed in green uniforms ? — I ! -v ' think it is very likely that he had ; but 1 cannot say that I recollect it. Do you recollect whether the Bukshee or principal minister of the nabob of Surat, had the care of those attendants? — I do not recollect it, but think it is very likely. Can you state what others of the native princes in India, alluded to in your former answer, used such woollen cloths as uniforms for their tro >ps ? — I think Tippoo's troops were habited in the manufactures of his own country, with streaks like the streaks of a tiger : Scindiah had regular corps, but I do not recollect whether they were dressed in woollens or in cloths of the country. When you were at Bombay do you recollect whether the principal native merchants did not commonly use European carriages? — Some of them did use European carriages. Have you ever heard, or do you know, whether their houses were not furnished with chandeliers, lamps, mirrors, and several other articles of European and Chinese manufactures ? — I have understood that they are. From your observation at Bombay, do you not think that there is more wealth generally distributed among the natives of that settlement, than among those of the interior provinces ? — Undoubtedly. Do you know of what classes that population of Bombay consists ?— - It consists of Hindoos, Mahomedans, Parsees, Christians, and some Jews. Are there not a great many Hindoos at Bombay, of the cast called Purvoe ? — Undoubtedly. Are there not many of the Hindoo class called Banians ? — Un- doubtedly. Are there not many of the Hindoo cast called Hamauls, Gotties, Co- matties, and others? — Those last enumerated are foreigners, Hamauls, Gotties and Comatties. By foreigner?, you mean that they are persons that have come to Bombay to seek employ ? — To seek a livelihood. •EAST;INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. *19 Are they not now fixed residents in the Island ? — Many of them are SirC.W.tydldt, become rixed residents in the Island. Bart. Did you, during your stay in Bombay, ever see a statistical account, prepared by the superintendent of police, or in his office, stating the Hindoos of the Island to be three-fourths of the whole papulation? — I do not recollect having :>een such statistical account. Did not the Hindoo merchants called shroffs, ride in European carriages, during the time you were in Bombay ? — I think there was one, but I am not sure, Nuggindass. In a former part of your examination, you stated, that there was little want cr inclination among the natives of India for European manu- factures, except at the different presidencies and principal seaports, where there are European establishments ; do you think that this greater inclination for European manufactures, at such presidencies and seapoits, is at all to be ascribed to the irtercourse of the natives with the Europeans settled there ? — I think it is almost exclusively belonging to the Parsees, that the request prevails for European articles. Had the Parsees, according to your knowledge, or as far as you may be acquainted with their history, any such inclination for European manu- factures previous to their intercourse ? — I presume they could not feel the want before they were acquainted with the article. Then the Committee may understand, that this intercourse with Euro- peans at the presidencies, has at least effected some change in the habits of the natives ? — Doubtless ; the Parsees have adopted new articles, not of dress, but of luxury, in their houses, and in their mode of conveyance. You have stated, that the Mogul princes of India were in the habit of indulging in every description of luxury ; did not the same spirit prevail among their principal officers ? — The style of magnificence was general throughout the whole system of the Mogul empire. Are not the descendants of the same people likely to indulge as their predecessors did, or if such were the original habits of those people, can any thing but poverty restrain their indulgence in the same luxuries now? — The wealth of the Moguls is principally confined to the chieftains of the empire ; I know now but of three or four remaining of that. decayed em- pire ; one is the Nizam, another is the Vizier, another is the Nabob of 3 II 2 Moorshedabad, 420 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir CIV. Male!, Moorshedabad, and the other the Nabob of the Carnatic ; I believe thei- Bart. indulge to the utmost of their power in the luxuries and pomps that were ' characteristic of their tribe. «v~ Do not the Mussulmen in Persia also indulge, when they can afford it, in the use of European luxuries and manufactures ? — I dare say they may, but I am not practically acquainted with it ; I cannot speak to it of my own knowledge. Were they in the habit of using woollen dresses when you were in that country, during the cold weather ? — Persia is, I believe, one of the prin- cipal vends of the woollens that go to Bombay. Can you state whether woollens are also in use among the northern tribes of Hindostan? — Not that I have observed; they substitute quilting in the cold weather as their clothing. Can you state the number of the Mussulman population now in India ? —Certainly I cannot. Would you conceive, from your observation of India, the Mussulman population to be overrated at ten millions, the number stated by Mr. Orme ? — It is a point on which I can form no definite opinion ; the popu- lation is so very scattered and so very wide, that I do not know how it is possible to form any criterion to make a census. Do you think it is any thing like that number ? — I have not a single datum on which to form an opinion upon the subject ; there are large provinces where scarce a Mahomedan is to be found ; again, there are large cities where perhaps the major part of the population may be Mahomedan. Can you state what number there are in India of the people called Por* tuguese or native Christians ? — I have heard that the total amount of native Christians may be 50 or 60,000, but I have no knowledge on which to form an opinion of my own. In what country ? — Taking from Bombay to Cape Comorin, a"nd along the coast of Coromandel, and in short throughout the peninsula, Portu- guese Christians, Syrian Christians, and Christians of the different de- nominations. Are there not many of those Portuguese established in and about Bombay, and on the island of Salsette ? — A great many. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 421 Are not their habits and dress in a great measure European ? — I think SirC. H .Mcdcf, some of the better sort on a Sunday may perhaps have a coat of broad- Bart. cloth, but the mass of them which have come under my observation have * y — — ' the cloth of the country for a waistcoat, or something of that so;t of habit. Are not those people, generally speaking, in a very degraded condition, and miserably poor? — The generality of them are among the labouring classes of the society ; their degradation, if degraded they are, must be from their manners ; but I am not aware of any particular degradation at- taching to them, or of their being particularly poor. If, as you state, the better sort of those Portuguese dress commonly in European clothes, do you not think that if the great majority of those people were richer, they would also adopt the usages of their superiors of the same cast ? — It is most likely that with an addition of wealth they would adopt a more expensive garb ; but the climate appears to me to be a great obstacle to its adoption, as their common habit. Are you acquainted with, or had you an opportunity of personally ob- serving, during your residence in Bombay, the state of the Island of Salsette ? — My residence in Bombay was very short, and during that time I had very little opportunity of observing the situation of Salsette. You have stated, in a former part of your examination, that one reason why the natives of India had neither want nor inclination for European manufactures, was their scanty means, coupled with their obligation to pay the government revenue ; can you state, for the information of the Committee, to what those scanty means of the natives are chiefly to be attributed ? — Generally to the state of the society, particularly to the low- price of labour. Is not, in your opinion, the low price of labour rather an effect than a cause of such poverty ? — Perhaps mutually, cause and effect. Is not the land tax or revenue very high all over India ? — I have always understood so ; but never having been employed in any revenue depart- ment, I am not competent to give a decided opinion upon the question. [The Witness withdrew. [Adjourned to To morrow, 11 o'clock. Martis, 4^3 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON TBS Martis, 27° die dprilis 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair* Sir CHARLES WARRE MALET, Bart, was a-ain called in, and examined by the Committee as follows : SirC.IV.Malety Were you understood rightly, in saying, that the native princes of In- Bart. dia, particularly the Mahrattas, do not hold commerce in estimation, and *- y ' give but little encouragement to it ? — I conceive myself to be rightly un- derstood. Do you know of any of the princes of India being engaged in trade ?— I do not. Are you of opinion that the commercial pursuits of the Company tend to raise the character of the British nation in India ? — I do not conceive that the commercial dealings ot the Company haveany particular tendency to increase the respect of the native princes in India. or corn- State, whether, in your opinion, they have that tendency generally Otherwise ? — In a? far as it connects them more generally with the c u , mercia! classes in India, I presume it may have a tendency to increase its influence over those classifications of society. Are you of opinion that the Company's government would be more respected by the native princes, if they were to relinquish their commer- cial, and confine themselves to their political character in India ? — I am rather inclined to think, that in the event of any diminution of the powers and privileges now exercised by the East-India Company, coup'.ed with an influx or a new class of Europeans from this country, the general result upon the minds of the Indian princes might be detrimental to the interests of the Company. Would it, in your opinion, be detrimental to the real interests of the Company or ti • nation, were the Cimpany t) relinquish thair commercial character in India, provided it can be shown that their trade with that country <_ east -India company's affairs. 423 country has been productive of a heavy loss ? — I think in my former an- S/'rC.JV.Malef, swer, the general result is that a diminution of the influence of the Com- Dart, pany, by the abolition of its trade, might be detrimental to its govern- mental characti r ; it remains for the Company, in its financial character, to determine, whether that diminution of character would be compensated by saving or avoiding the supposed incurred commercial loss. Have you observed any considerable use made by the natives of India,. of the metals of this country! such as copper, iron, stetel, Sic. ? — The natives of India certainly make great use of copper, iron and steel ; they have abundance of iron in their own country ; steel they likewise have, but in what proportion, or what quantity, I cannot pretend to say ; cop- per is in universal use amongst them, but whence it is procured, 1 am not competent to specify. Have the goodness to state, in what part of India they obtain their iron within themselves ? — There are very great iron works in the north of In- dia, in the neighbourhood of Gwallior ; it is now fifteen years since I was in that part of - the world, and I do not exactly recollect the very spot where the mines are, but they were in the course of my journey to the north of India, and were visited, and have been in some measure de- scribed by a gentleman of my suite. Do not the natives of India use copper and brass vessels for holding wa- ter, milk and oil, and for other household purposes ? — They certainly use- copper and brass vessels for various domestic purposes. Do not the natives of India, who can afford to purchase those, prefer them to earthen vessels ? — I believe that a certain proportion of vessels of one or the other of those metals is almost a necessary part of their domestic utensils, but I cannot speak to the proportion between the use of them and earthen vessels : I beg incidentally to mention that, in their great en- tertainments, the Hindoos do not use either earthen or metal vessels ; their.' plates off of which they eat, are composed of leaves sewn together. Do you speak of India generally, or of any particular part of India ? — Those parts of India with which I have had an opportunity of being ac- quainted. Are you of opinion that the consumption generally by the natives of' India ot British manufactures, and other articles imported from this coun- try, had increased between the period of your arrival in India, and that ©fi 424 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC.W.Malet, of your departure ? — My residence while in India was chiefly in foreign Bart, situations, and during that residence, I certainly had no opportunities of ' -^— ■ ■ — ' observing any particular additional importation, or use of European arti- cles ; in as far as the European population at Bombay increased, there certainly must have been an additional call tor European articles ; I like- wise believe that the Parsees of Bombay have increased in their demand for European articles. Were English carriages in use amongst the natives of Poonah when you left India ? — Certainly not ; nor were their roads at all calculated for the use of them. Have you heard that they are now very much so, and that his highness the Peishwah has several English equipages ? — I have not heard ir, but I think it very likely, from the introduction of a subsidiary corps at Poonah, that carriages may have been introduced, roads may have been mended, and the Peishwah may have adopted the use of them in a certain degree. Were English chandeliers in use amongst the natives of Poonah when you were there ? — I think there was a fondness for the glass ware of this country as an ornamental and useful article. You have mentioned that the Hindoos eat off leaves, is it within your knowledge that the Musselmen do not so eat offleaves, nor the Portuguese or Parsees ? — They certainly do not. Is it within your knowledge, that those classes of natives sit down regu- larly to tables the same as Europeans do ? — The Portuguese, I always un- derstood to be nearly similar in their manners to ourselves ; I am not ac- quainted with either the Parsees or the Mahometans having adopted in any degree that part of our manners. Had not the Company formerly a considerable trade with Sind in the articles of woollens and metals ? — They certainly had a considerable trade formerly, and a commercial residency existed in the country of Sind. D) you know how the Company came to lose that trade? — I do not accurately know how the Company lost the trade, but I understood the withdrawal of the factory to have been from the unsettled state of the country. Have you heard of an unsuccessful attempt having been lately made by EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 425 by the Company to renew their intercourse with Sind, and to establish a SirC W.Malet, commercial intercourse in that country ? — I do not personally kncvvn of Bart. such an attempt ; but I have heard that the re-establishment of the fac- * y ' tory actually took place, and was again shortly withdrawn, but for what reasons I do not know. Does not India produce remarkably fine grapes, and in great abun- dance ? — Grapes I believe have been latterly introduced upon the island of Bombay ; there were grapes grown at Poonah, but not in great quan- tities ; greater quantities, I understand, to have been grown at Aurung- abad ; I am not acquainted with the culture or growth of grapes in any other places. Are you of opinion, that the grape might be cultivated in India to any extent, and that wine might be produced therefrom by persons skilled in making it ? — Doubtless grapes might be produced to any extent. Are you of opinion, that cotton might also be produced to any extent P — I presume that the soil and climate of India might be used to the cul- tivation of cotton to any extent. Are you of opinion, that if the resort of Europeans was restricted to those parts of India where there are British settlements, any peculiar danger would arise from that permission ? — I conceive that no positive danger would arise to the governments into which Europeans might be introduced ; my expression of governments supposes it to be one of the principal settlements of the Company, where their municipal and military power is in full vigour. Meaning the three presidencies ? — Meaning the three presidencies. Do you mean the three presidencies only, when you allude to places where the municipal power is in full vigour ? — I am not acquainted with the extent of the jurisdiction of the subordinate settlements, for the proper controlling of an indiscriminate influx of Europeans generally; I confine my answer to the three presidencies. Do the Hindoos, on service with the army, carry their prejudices, with regard to Europeans touching or passing near their food, to the extent which you mentioned in your evidence of yesterday ? — I believe that those tribes, which I particularised yesterday, zvouldj or that, according 3 1 to 426 MINUTES OI EVIDENCE ON THE Sir CIV. Malet, to the observances of their casts, they might, even on service with the Bart. army. In reference to what has been said respecting the disposition of the princes or chieftains whom we have conquered, have you observed any particular signs of dislike to the British, among the mass of the Hindoo or Mahometan population of those countries, to whom we have at dif- ferent times dictated the terms of peace or of subsidiary treaties ? — Hap- pily for this country, and for that part of it which is charged with the administration of India, I do not think that hitherto there have been any general marks of antipathy to the English nation, or its government in India, at least none have come within my knowledge ; with respect to the influence of coercive treaties, and the alliances of ascendency, they have, generally speaking, been formed since I left India, consequently I cannot be so well qualified to speak to the influence ot those treaties as gentlemen who have had an opportunity of local observation. Inform the Committee what portion of Tippoo's dominions were as- signed to the British after the treaty of 1792? — I think that the con- quered part ot the dominions of Tippoo were to be equally divided amongst the three allies, the British, the Peishwah, and the Nizam. Can you say what ports there are to the northward of Gna belonging to native powers, and to whom they respectively belong ? — Rairee and Vingorla belong to the Colapore Rajah, and to the Dessi Warre ; Severn- droog, Gheriah and Cfr ule belong to the Peishwah; Tizzera or Dunda Rajapore belongs to the Sedy, formeily the admiral of the Mogul empire ; Colabba belongs to Angria ; Basseen and Gundavie belong to the Peish- wah ; the two last are to the northward of Bombay, those I have men- tioned just now are to the southward ; Damaun belongs to the Portu- guese ; Jumbuzoies to the Peislfwah ; Cambay to a Mogul Prince ; the whole coast from thence to the Persian Gulf belongs to the independent powers, and there are very numerous ports, particularly on the coast of. Guzerat. Do the treaties with any, and which of the princes, prevent Europeans penetrating into India ? — I know there was an article in the treaty with the Peishwah, precluding the entertainment of foreign Europeans; but during my time I do not recollect auy article precluding the admission either of British or foreigners. How far does the country of the Colapore Rajah extend from the sea coast.. a EAST-INDrA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. *W coast, and do you know whose territory it bounds to the East ?— It is on SirC W.Makt, one side bounded by the Portuguese to the southward ; lo the eastward B irt. and northward it is bounded by the Peishwah's territories; the west is ' v ' bounded by the sea; I am not exactly acquainted with its extent from the sea coast. Might not Europeans, landing at the port of Rairee, have free access from thence to all parts of the inter or of India, whether belonging to the Company or to native powers ? — Undoubtedly, I know of no obstacle either physical or political. Might not they also have access through the ports of Gheriah, Raja- pore, Colabba, and the other ports you have mentioned? — I know of no specific prevention. Do you know whether the Sedy of Rajapore and Angria, are com- pletely subject to the Peishwah, or how far they are independent states ? — The Sedy of Rajapore is in a very peculiar predicament ; the rightful heir has been provided for by the Peishwah with a jaghire in Guzerat, upon conditi n of surrendering to the Peishwah his claim to inheritance, of which the Peishwah was to take advantage as opportunity and power, permitted : I have not heard that the Peishwah has taken advantage of that commutation, to get possession of Rajapore; Angria was, I believe, a feudatory of the Marhatta Raj, that is, of the kingly power before the vicarial power of the Peishwah took place; as a feudatory of the Raj, he is in a certain degree independent of the Peishwah, but certainly not independent of the influence of the Peishwah. Do you think that any stipulations with the Peishwah could be effec- tual to prevent Europeans penetrating through all or any of those ports into the interior ? — Certainly no agreemenc with the Peishwah can be imperiously preventive. Do you know what distance it is from Angria's port of Colabba to Bombay ? — I believe Bombay is in the latitude of 19°, and probably Coiabba may be from 15 to 20 miles to the southward of it; I speak under correction. Have you ever been in the country of Cutch, or do you know the exact situation of that country ? — i never have been in the country of Cutch, but its geogtaphical situation i am generally acquainted wiih. Are the countries to the north-eastward of Cutch subject to the Mah- 3 I 2 rattas, 423 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC.W.Malet, rattas, or are they independent chieftains ? — To the north-east of Cutch Bart. there are several independent rajahs, over whom the Mahratta influence *— ■— -v — ' is only in a degree in which their Moluckgheery armies can enforce & certain collection from them. Would Europeans meet with any difficulty in penetrating into the interior of India through those countries ? — I presume they would meet with no other difficulty than might arise from their own misconduct ; there is a persuasion amongst the people of that country, that most Euro- peans are artillerists, acquainted with the use of cannon ; and under that persuasion, probably, they would be glad to receive stragglers. Do vou know whether there is in general good anchorage on the coast from Goa to the Indus, during the fair season, and could not boats easily land at every port you have mentioned, during that season ? — -I believe, that during the whole of the fair season, that is, from the beginning of November to the middle of May, there is a very safe communica- tion between the coast and shipping ; and that there is very good an- chorage along the whole of that coast; I speak under correction, gee*- graphically. Do you think there would be any, and what danger, in ships from this countrv, navigated by Europeans, freely visiting and trading with the ports of the nati-e princes in India, Persia, Arabia, and on the Eastern coist of Africa? -There are piratical vessels on the coast of Malabar, on tne coast of Guzerat, and in the Gult of Persia, that would subject vessels, not well armed, to the danger of capture, to which may be superadded the common dangers to commercial adventurers, ot bad go- vernments, and bad paymasters under those governments ; of the Eastern coast ot Atriea or Abyssinia, I have not much information. Do you think there would be any danger of getting into disputes with the native officers of the ports? — I think rhat people, entirely ignorant of the peculiarities and great varieties of the character of the people, included rn the extensive line described by the question, would certainly be sub- jected to great dangers of quarrels with the natives. Do you know what commercial communications those ports have with Europeans ? — Of the ports described on the coa t of Malabar, I know but two, I think Jumboseere and Cambay, that are much frequented by Europeans ; of those on the coast of Guzerat, Gogo, and Bhownagur ; but all EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. ^9 all of them have a very frequent and intimate intercourse with our pre- Sir C.W.Male!, sidency of Bombay, by means of their own vessels. Is not Bombay the emporium of trade, or the commercial depot for all the countries to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope, as far as the Cape of Comorin, including the Gulphs of Arabia and Persia? — Undoubtedly, it is the great emporium. Is not the produce of those countries chiefly brought to Bombay in small vessels, belonging to and navigated by natives ? — I believe, except- ing the trade of the Red Sea from Mocha and Judda, and excepting some large square-rigged ships and vessels from Muscat, the whole commercial intercourse is carried on in their own latteen sail or single masted vessels. Do not those vessels carry back the goods required by those countries, the produce or manufactures of Europe, China, and other parts of India ? — I believe they do; the Company's naval establishment at Bombay is em- ployed in convoying and escorting those vessels to various ports, to guard against the piratical states, I have previously had occasion to mention. Do you think this mode of carrying on the country trade, as cheap or bet'er than in English ships, manned by Europeans ? — I conceive that it must be infinitely cheaper, and in as far as it is cheaper, must be preferable, and b. tter for the natives. Are vou of opinion, that, considering the delicate texture and tenure of the British empire in 'ndia, which is acknowledged not to depend upon its numerical, but on its moral force, that is opinion, repeated indiscretions of Briti-h subjects or Euiopeans might shake the tranquillity, and not remotely the security, of the British empire in India ? — I certainly think, that the indiscretions of our countrymen in India, coupled with the report of various proceedings in i h is country, of meetings, tending to diminish their commerce, to encroach upon their religion, and generally evincing a disposition subversive of their present state of society, may have a ten- dency to shake and undermine the amicable sentiments of the natives of that country Is or is not the population of India at present generally submissive, and apparently contented under the British government? — In my answer to a previous question, i have had occasion to say, that my knowledge of the influence of the alliances that have been formed with the native powers since 430 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SuC.lT Mttitt, since I left India, is imperfect; pi'.viously to mv leading India, as far as Bart. my situations enabled me to j dge, there was a degree of confidence in the 11 v ' native powers towards the Company's government, that was highly cre- ditable to that government, and to our countiy in general. Do you imagine that the Mahomedans, out of whose hands the power has been taken by the British nation, which power they formerly used for the purpose of pillaging and oppressing the Hindoos, are equal y con- tented, though apparently submissive with the Hindoo part of the popu- lation ?-—! t h i k that the mass of the Mahometan population being so widely diffused and scartered, can hardly be supposed to form one general opinion »r sensation ; but I think that the chieftains and principal mem- bers of the Mahometan part of the society, must certainly feel their present humiliating situation extremely iiksome. As long as the Hindoo population is contented with the British govern- ment, do you imagine that any discontents, or practice from those dis- contented Mahometans could shake the Brnish empire ? — India is a country of vicissitude and revolution; I think it not at all improbable that some great genius, some extraordinary spinr, might arise, that could com- bine tne ptesent floating spirit of discontent in the Mahometans into one mass; in whuh cader from onvrnment by any British sub- ject or European, should ipso facto be followed by being Ssnl out of the country, in order to avoid the subjecting the supreme government to the odium ■■>* EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 431 odium of it ? — If it is meant to %A with respect- to the exertion of such a SirClf. MtJet, power, parliament certainly could give the power of doing it ; with respect Birt. to the consequences, and the bearings of the exercise of such a power, how *- far it might trench upon the individual lioeity or welfare of the subject, must depend upon the circumstances of the case at the time : and how iar, in as far as it might bear upon the liberty and welfare of the subject, it would certainly become a question as to the advisableness or expediency of the exercise of the power. Do not you conceive the supreme government of India to he always responsible to parliament for the proper use of its power ? — Undoubtedly, Are you of opinion, from your knowledge of the native habits and cli- mate oPHindostan, that any chance uf an increase of supply to those na- tives, of British articles, can be compared with the possible dangers arising from an increased intercourse with Europeans not in the Company's service, notwithstanding any regulations that may be made in regard to them ? — I humbly presume that the increase of the disposal of European' articles is a very dubious result of an indiscriminate influx of Europeans, consequently-, that while the advantages must be dubious, the probable- inconvenience of the influx is to be put in the balance against it. In the answers you gave yesterday to the questions respecting the pro- bable consequences of a greater influx of Europeans into India, did you not refer chiefly to that part of India which lies to the west of Ca;>e Comorin ?— -Though there is a great opening for the admission of Euro- peans from the independent governments on the coast of Malabar, yet in my idea, wjth respect to. the inconvenienciesof an indiscriminate influx of Europeans, in as far as that influx may operate in the production of disa- greements with the natives, I do not mean to confine myself merely to the coast of Malabar. Do not you conceive, that in part of the coast not immediately subject to the Company, Europeans might, either by permission or connivance of minor native authorities, get admission into the interior of the country,, notwithstanding the agreement of some of the principal native powers to exclude them ? — -I think they certainly might. If it were freely permitted by the British government to British subjects to resort to India, would they not be likely to avail themselves of tho->e modes of entrance into the interior in a greater degree than they Live. hitherto done ? — In the proportion that the number would be increased r 1 s probability 432 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC W.Makt, probability of the increase of entrance into the interior would be super- B.rt. added. If British subjects were permitted to trade to those countries on the coast of India, not subjecr to the Company, might there not, besides the danger of their embroiling themselves with the natives, be a danger of their getting into disputes with the native governments, in consequence of their attempting to establish factories and a local influence there ?— « Without perceiving any danger of their attempting to establish factories, I think there would be a danger in their endeavouring to establish that common intercourse which must be necessary to their commercial objects. Does not the present state of the commercial intercourse between the British settlements in India and the north-west coast of India, the Gulphs of Persia and Arabia, and the east coast of Africa, afford ample means for the vend of all European commodities which those countries can take off, and for procuring a sufficiency of all the productions of those countries in demand in Europe ? — I have always understood that it does. Is not the clothing in English woollens of the peons, and other retainers of Europeans, entirely from the will and at the expence of their European masters ? — Undoubtedly. From the coast of Guzerat, supposing an unrestricted intercourse of Europeans to that coast, would it be easy or not for them to get up to Indore, the country of Holkar, the country of Meer Khan, and to the independent Rajpoot states ? — I can see neither obstacle nor difficulty. Would it be an object to the independent states, not under the control of the British government, to conciliate Europeans, and get them to come into their country ? — In a previous answer, I had occasion to say, that Europeans have generally the reputation of being artillerists, or useful in some military mode or another ; and in that capacity, I think it is very like y that they might be received or entertained. In reference to the questions which have been put to day, respecting the facility of entrance into the interior of India through Guzerat, is not the more cultivated and civilized part of Guzerat subject to the Peishwal\ Guicowar, and to the British government ? — During the time of my residence in India the whole of Guzerat, exclusive of Surat, was EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. -133 was in the possession of the Peiahwah, the Guicowar, Broach of Scin- Sir CW.Malet, diah ; rhe north western part was possessed by different rajahs in a certain Bart. degree, independent of either Peishwah or Guicowar, subject only to the v « — - visitation of their tributary collecting armies. Have we not late treaties with those prince?, by which they are. prevented entertaining Europeans' in their service, without the permission of the British government ?— the treaties that existed during my time did not preclude the admission, though they did the entertainment of foreign Europeans in the Peishwah's service. Is not the remainder, of Guzerat,- or that portion of the country which extends to the borders of Cutch and Joudpore, commonly called- Kattywar, and the people Katties ? — The country extending to the north of the town of Limbrey, in the province of Guzerat, and probably some part to the southward of it, is called Kattywar, and is inhabited by a predatory tribe, denominated Katties, but they do not extend to the sea coast. Do not those people occupy the principal part of the interior of the country you have just described ? — They do. Are they not in a state little better than that of savages ? — 'Though in a predatory state, they are far removed from a savage state ; their dre3», manners and fuod, assimilate them nearly to the Rajpoots, and, except in the practice .of exercising depredation, they are in their manner civil and courteous, Have you ever seen or heard of official reports upon the public records of India, stating those people to be scarcely under the controul of any thing like civil government ; to be in a state where their princes or chiefs have very little influence over their private conduct, and where not only robbery, but murder, is constantly committed with impunity ? — They certainly are a very singular tribe of men ; they live in little independent associations cr villages, and except in that circumstance of living in villages, and being srationary, nearly resemble the Arabs of the-- Desert.- 1 have not heard of the frequency of the commission of murder, though they are certainly in the practice of predatory excursions from the seats of/ their own habitation. Do you know, from yotir own personal observation of those people, or from any such official reports as before adverted to, that they have 3 K amongst *-- ^~- 4S4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE SirC.lV. Malet, amongst them a cast of people, called Bhauts, whose persons are held Bart. sacred by the natives, and who as such, commonly accompany travellers, for their security, and who from the state of society in that country, are, in fact, the only security travellers have against robbery and murder?— There are two tribes in Guzerat that have that kind of sacred character, the Bhaut and the Charrau ; tl.ey are in the habit of standing as security between the governments and the zemindars for the payment of revenue, as also of giving protection to caravans by the supposed sin and danger that would accrue to the violator, or to the plunderer of those caravans, in the spilling of their blood. Have you heard of the European officers of the British government, who have lately travelled through that country, under c>mmissions from government, owing their personal safety entirely, notwithstanding their public commission, to those lhauts and Charraus, and being still, on various occasions, notwithstanding this security, in great danger of their own lives? — I have not heard of European officers b*:ng in such predi- caments, but I have heard that the present Sir Henry Montgomery was in danger, in the course of a service on which he was employed in that country for the purchase of horses; that was before the existence of our power in that country. Have you ever seen any letters from the chiefs of those tribes, or have you ever heard that any sue h are on record, in whuh they openly avow themselves to be robbers by birth and profession ? — I have never seen such letters ; their practice of depredation is avowed ; they are a tribe of armed horsemen. In such a state of society as Kattywar presents, including the whole of the tribes, extending to the Rajpoot district of Joudpore and the Mahratta frontiei, do you think it probable that Europeans would attempt to pene- trate into India this way, or do you think that they could do it success- fully, if attempted ? — I do not think that there would be any danger whatever from that class of people 10 individual Europeans, throwing themselves upon their hospitality, consequently there would be none in their makhg a transit through the ir country ; I mean individual Euro- peans not charged with great property, though I am at the same time well convinced, in my own mind, that by proper management, and a proper application to those people, they might be conciliated to a certain degree of accordance with our wishes. Do you mean in preventing Europeans going through their country 1— * I mean EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 435 I mean that they might be made perfectly amicable to the British go. em- SirC.JV. Maht, merit, generally speaking. Bart - What would the probable consequence in your opinion be, of such Europeans attempting to traverse the country, without the permission of the chiefs of those tribes, or if receiving that permission, committing offences against the people or the chiefs in their journey ? — I think, they might be cut off. [The Witness withdrew. ALEXANDER FALCONAR, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Grant J — In what capacities did you serve the East-India Com- Alex. Falconar^ pany ? — I have served the East-India Company in all the different departs Esq. ments of the government. * v ' How long did you reside in India ? — For about twenty-three years. Beginning in what year ?— In 1786 or 17&7- Under what presidency did you reside ? — At the presidency of Madras. State in what departments you served during the time you have men- tioned ? — I served in the military department, a an officer of infantry, of artillery, and of cavalry ; in the civil department, as a revenue, judi- cial, commercial, political and diplomatic servant. Did you at any time fill the situation of chief secretary to the Madras government f — I was appointed by the government of Madras, during the period of the late military commotions there, to execute the functions of chief secretary to the government, and continued in that situation, till the termination of those dissensions. Did you hold any other office at the same time ?— At that time, I was senior member, and officiating president of the Board of Revenue; to which station I had attained through the several gradations of junior, second, and senior member, in a course of ten years service at that Board. At what period did you quit the military for the civil service of the Company ?— About the year 1790, I think. 3 K 2 State 436 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 'ON THE 'Alex, Fakonar, State whether the chief secretary to the government is not the channel Esq. of official communication between the government and all the subordinate *— — * ' functionaries ? — The immediate channel. . Did you at any time fill the office of translator to the government ? — [ filled the office of Persian translator to the government for the period from )7$>1 till about the end of 1810 ; I also filled the office, at one time, of Gentoo translator. With which of the Indian languages are you acquainted? 1 am, in some degree, conversant with the Arabic, Persian, and Hindus- tannee, the Sanscrit, and Telinga or Gentoo languages. From the acquaintance which you have acquired with the characters, manners, institution", and prejudices of the natives of India, do you ap- prehend that the unlimited admission of British subjects to an intercourse with the native people, would be favourable either to the security of the natives, or to the stability of the British government, under which they live? — If an unrestrained resort of European adventurers to India were permitted, and an unlimited license of intercourse with the inhabitants of India granted, 1 apprehend the measure, besides being pregnant with delusive and seductive schemes of advantage to the adventurers themselves, would also be producti c of consequences detrimental to the interests of the British empire in India, to those of the East- India Company, and to the tranquillity and happiness of the Indian population. In what manner do you conceive that the abuses, of which you have spoken, would arise, under the circumstances supposed ? —They would arise from the extreme dissimilarity in the national character of the people of the respective countries, their different customs, manners, religions, sen- timents, laws, and languages. Have you observed in Europeans either from their "ignorance of the native usages and prejudices, or from an opinion of their own personal and national superiority, a disposition lo insult or domineer over the na- tives ? — A disposition of that nature has been generally observed : in the course of my experience, I have officially known many references to the government, in consequence of the dissensions occasioned by the impiu- dent, injudicious interference of Europeans with the native population. Supposing that the restrictions at present enforced en the admission of Europeans into the interior of India, withot.t being abolished, were ma- terially BAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 4-<7 teriallv relaxed, is it your judgment that such a change of system would Alex. Fvhonar, involve a proportionate hazard of the evil consequences described in your Esq. former answer ? — In whatsoever degree they were relaxed, it would in- ' v * volve the hazards to which I have just now alluded. You are doubtless aware that British subjects for offences committed against the natives are amenable only to the supreme court of judicature, and triable only by a jury composed of British subjects, do you conceive that it would be practicable or expedient to invest the Zillah courts, with a criminal cognizance over British subjects in general ?— British subjects are liable only to the supreme court of judicature at the presidency for criminal cases ; but they are liable to the jurisdiction of the Zillah courts in civil cases, when the property litigated is less than 500 rupees ; but I conceive it would be both impracticable and inexpedient to subject them to the trial by a native jury in the Zillah or provincial courts. Are not British subjects amenable to the Zillah courts to the extent mentioned by you, only by their own previous consent, and as a condi- tion of their being allowed an ingress into the interior of the country ? — It is in that case they are so liable. Would it in your opinion be practicable to institute atrial by jury in the Zillah or provincial courts, this condition being supposed, that such jury should consist exclusively of British subjects ? — It would be imprac- ticable in the Zillah courts, there being fewer no British subjects resident in the situations where those courts are established, Could British subjects in general be made criminally amenable to the courts iu question as now constituted, without offence to the national feel- ings and prejudices of Englishmen ? — In my opinion they could not. Would the frequent exercise of coercion over British subjects on the part of native officials, or corps of sepoys, tend to lower the estima- tion in which the natives hold the British character ? — It would have a tendency to depreciate the estimation in which they hold the British cha- racter. Supposing that an open trade were established between this country and India, but that British Traders were interdicted from touching at any point of the coasts of India, except at the presidencies or at garrison towns, or in situations where the Bn'ish governmeni has established some sort of port police, do you conceive that such interdiction would prove effectual 438 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE A'er. Falcotiar, effectual to prevent vessels from touching on other parts of the coast?— There are various creeks and places along each coast of the peninsula, be- .— j sides, the ports and places at which government have custom and police establishments, at which vessels navigated by European traders might suc- cessfully touch for the purposes of illicit trade, and elude the appointed custom and police establishments; I mean on the Malabar and Coroman- del coasts. Supposing that vessels were to touch on the coast in the manner describ- ed, and that British mariners were to land, would you apprehend, from such circumstances, any of the abuses which you have before described as likely to result from an enlarged intercourse between British subjects and the native people ? — I apprehend that British mariners might success- fully run from those trading vessels, and penetrate into the interior of the country, producing various mischiefs, or that those trading vessels might smuggle goods, by means of touching at those creeks and mouths of rivers to which I have alluded. Tn your apprehension, would the facility of smuggling goods in the manner which you have described, operate as a temptation to private trading vessels from this country to touch on prohibited parts of the co^st ? — There would be a degree of temptation, but it would be exposed to a great iisk of detection by means of the police and custom establish- ments ; in the vicinity of those places there are customs and police estab- lishments near to those places. . Can you state generally, how many situations convenient for disembark- ing or landing goods there are on the coast of the peninsula, at which the British government has established any kind of custom house or police ? — - On the Coromandel coast, at Madras, Masulipatam, Vizagapatarr^Ganjam, I believe latterly at Cuttack as far as to Calcutta ; on the Malabar coast> at Mangalore, Cochin, Bombay, and Tellicherry. Are not those establishments very few and dispersed, considered with reference to the vast line of the coast of the peninsula? — They are. Can you form any judgment, whether those establishments would be greatly multiplied without considerable expense ? — It would tend to aug- ment the expense in a very considerable degree to multiply the establish- ments in the proportion that would be necessary for the vigilant superiiv tendence of the trade of adventurers, if the pons were thrown open. Is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 439 Is iliere any circumstance, in your experience, which leads you to be- Alex. FaLomr, lieve that seamen might be apt to desert from ihe trading vessels, in the Esq. manner described in a former answer ? — It is not unusual for the mariners of the vessels of the Company to run from those vessels, induced by the* temptation afforded them of entering the service of the coasting trade of the countiy ; on enteiing that service, a common seaman is immediately advanced to the situaiion of a sea-cunny or steersman, and so on, to mate and captain. I apprenend that the vessels of European adventurers being exposed in the same degree to the same danger, might be materially dis- tressed by the loss of some of the comparatively few mariners navigating Such vessels, and might be compelled to employ Lascars in their return to Europe, thereby endangering their navigation. In your judgment, would the employment of Lascar crews in the trade with India be, on the whole, commercially advantageous to the British traders ? — By no means; it would require, I imagine, a crew consisting of double the number of Lascars to navigate a vessel compared to the usual number of Europeans employed on board such vessel, the incresse of expence must consequently render it less advantageous to em- ploy crews of that description, independently of the less efficient man- ner in which the navigation of such vessels can be conducted by those.. Lascar3. R '■*• (" From your experience are you able to state, whether the natives of India futnish a considerable demand for the commodities of Europe ? — The demand for the commodities of Europe is very small amongst the natives of India. Have you found that demand materially to increase of late years ?— * I am not aware that it has increased; I apprehend it has rather dimi- nished of late years. Do you apprehend the demand for European commodities to have in- creased among the natives of rank or distinction ? — I am not aware that it has increased amongst any class of the native population ; and I am of opinion, that it is unlikely ever to increase beyond the degree in which we have found it by experience. .* In your judgment, has the experiment of promoting the consumption of European commodities amongst the natives of India been adequately tried under the present system ? — I imagine that the experience of the East India Company for a period of about two centuries, and the expe- dience 440 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OST THE Alex. Falconar, Hence of other nations trading to Asia, has arFVderi ample proof of the Esq. ' improbability of increasing the demand beyond its present standard. You have stated that the native demand for European commodities has recently rather declined than otherwise, can you -tate the causes of such declension? — The Indian population, from their dispositions, habits, and manners, are disinclined to the use of European commodities; they are also so expensive, that the natives in general have not the means of pur- chasing them ; the markets in India have for some time past been over- stocked with those commodities; the efforts of government have, on various occasions, within my own experience, been ineffectual to procure vend for those commodities.; I have known applications, on the part of government, to the native courts and princes of the country, offering clothing for their military establishments on very reasonable terms, at prime cost, I believe ; and I have known those proposals to be unsuccess- ful ; there are periodical sales of those commodities, on very low te r ms ; those sales are ineffectual to produce a disposal of many of tho.e articles ; the tastes and dispositions of the people of India are, at the present mo- ment, the same as we know them to be described by the historians who accompanied the expedition of Alexander the Great, upwards of two thousand years ago, they are the same at the present moment, as described by the native annalists of India, for a period long anterior even to that date, and it appears to me unlikely that they can by any expedient be changed; the market being overstocked, the d.'mand of the natives has necessarily decreased. Do you mean that the native demand for imports from this country has declined in consequence of the Indian markets being already overstocked with European commodities ? — I mean that the demand for European ar- ticles in India, has declined ; I am not aware of any demand by natives for articles from this country ; I have heard of occasional applications, on the part of the native merchants, to the captains of Indiamen, t<>r some parti- cular articles, but there is no general d'rect demand on the part of the natives of India, for articles from this country. Is the demand which the natives of India furnish for European commo- dities, found to increase in proportion to their means of purchasing those commodities ? — It does not. You have stated that many of the natives have not, in fact, the means of purchasing European commodities, is not that remark applicable to the great majority of them ? — It is ; the more opulent of them have the means, and if they had the means without end. they would apply those means r other EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. *4l oilier purposes, than the purchase of European commodities: in the jj ex- Falconar, purchase of horses, of bullocks for their ploughs, and for the native cars; ' Esq. in the pu. chase of articles of eastern jewellery ; in increasing the number ,, v f of their ladies; in the celebration of their marriage ceremonies, and of the anniversary ceremonies of the obsequies of their ancestors, and such pur- poses ; seldom in the purchase of articles of European luxury. In the settlement of Madras, are the superior natives found to imbibe a taste for European fashions ? — Only the dubashes, or principal native ser- vants of European gentlemen. Do the dubashes adopt European fashions from a wish to please their employers or masters ? — Entirely froni that impulse. Can you state whether the average price of agricultural and manufac- turing labour in Coromandel, is not incomparably less than the average price of labour in this country ? — It is greatly less. Can you state the average price there ? — It varies in agriculture, from the extremes of six to twelve shillings a month ; amongst the different classes of artisans, in various proportions, from twelve to twenty shillings per month on an average, as I believe. You have stated the price of labour to be greatly less in India than in this country, do you mean to imply, that the comforts enjoyed by the labouring classes are likewise in the same proportion ? — By no means; their comforts are, perhaps, superior to the comforts of the labouring classes in this country; they are proportionate to their wishes and their wants. From the cheapness of labour in India, would you infer that the labour- ing classes are in a state of wretchedness ? — Certainly not. Is it your judgment, that the cheapness of Indian labour is only pro- portionate to the cheapness of the means of subsistence in that country, and to the voluntary simplicity of the native habits ? — Precisely so. In your judgment, is the simplicity of the modes of life prevalent amongst the natives of India occasioned by circumstances in the nature of the climate ? — It is occasioned by physical and peculiar circumstances in the climate, and the temperament of the people. 3L Do A4/1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Alex, Falconar, Do you apprehend that the countries of Europe can ever, under any Esq. circumstances, be on a great scale manufacturing countries for the bulk ) — — v ' of the native Indian population ? — I imagine not. To what causes would you ascribe it, that the commodities of India can advantageously enter the markets of JEurope, and this against rival commodities brought from a much less di-.T;mce ? -To the extreme cheap- ness of labour in the manufacture of Indian commodities Would not therefore a general advance in the price of Indian labour proportionably advance the cost of Indian commodities in the European markets ? — Of course it would. On the supposition that an open trade were established between this country and India, do you conceive that such trade would labour under any other difficulties in the interior of the country, than those resulting from the limited native demand for European commodities ? — I apprehend that it might be occasionally subjected to the per. Is of passing through the countries of polygars, zemindars, and independent chiefs, who, besides plundering those articles, would also levy unau;horized rahdarry duties on the transit of those commodities through those tracts of country ; even the articles of the trade of the East-India Company are sometimes not ex- empted from such depredations, and from the unauthorized exaction of those duties. Do you refer to polygars or zemindars, independent of the British go- vernment or tributary ? — Generally, to those independent of the Compa- ny ; but there are instances of even the subjects of the Company levying such duties. How far, in your opinion, would it be easy for the British government, by the interposition of its own authority, to check the u (authorized ex- actions mentioned in your last answer ? — It is perfectly competent to the governmentof the Company, to discourage and to prevent, within their own territories, the unauthorized exaction of those duties ; but it is diffi- cult, and sometimes impracticable, to prevent the independent tributaries on the borders of the Company's territories, from the levying of duties, and from the plunder of articles passing through those countries. From your experience in the revenue department, under the presidency of Madras, can you state, whe her it is the practice of the Madras govern- ment to collect the territorial revenues in kind ? — It is not. (Examined EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 413 Alex. Falconar, (Examined by the Committee.) Km. h not Anjengo included on the Malabar coast, where the Company have customs and at resident ? — I believe they have also established a custom- house at Anjengo. Have they not also at Callicut and Mahe ? — I believe they have. Are there, besides those places which you have enumerated, any others that you can mention, either on the eastern or western coast of the Penin- sula, calculated for shipping of considerable burthen ? — Not for shipping of burthen. Of the burthen of from three to four hundred tons ? — No, not for ship- ping of so large a description ; my meaning was, that shipping of any description might lie off the mouths of the rivers to which I have alluded, might run in boats to the shores of those rivers, and smuggle out various articles of produce of the country, without being liable immediately to the detection of the police and custom-house establishments. Can you state, under the present system of collecting the revenue at Madras, what portion of the produce is left to the cultivators of the soil ? — The government derive according to the different settlements, which settlements have been formed upon the results of the averages of the pro- 'duce of many years, a proportion varying from one half to one third of the produce. Has what is called the permanent system been extended to Madras, within your knowledge ? — To parts of the-territories subject to Madras. Does it embrace a considerable part of the Madras territory ?— It does embrace a e nsiderable part oi that territory. Supposing political intrigue, or military services, to be the object of an adventurer, could not he get access to the interior, by means of land- ing at such creeks and other places as you have described, where there is no existing police under the authority of the East India Company ? — He could doubtless avail himself of those unprotected situations to penetrate into the interior of the country ; nay, it is very possible for adventurers, with views of the kind alluded to, to penetrate into the interior of the country, even through the portion of the country where there are police establishments. 3 L 2 Is -V" -444 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE jikx. Fiilconar, Is the Committee to understand, that where you speak of ttie demand Esq. for European commodities having declined among the natives of India, ■ *™ — ' there is at this day a less demand for European commodities than formerly existed ? — I understood the demand for European commodities in India to be confined almost to the European inhabitants in India, the Portu- guese inhabitants, born there, and the descendants of other Europeans born there ; and that the demand, on the part of the natives, is extreme- ly limited ; the usual supply of the Indian market, for the purposes of the European inhabitants, affording ample means for furnishing the little which the natives at any time require. Are you of opinion, that the total consumption of European commodi- ties has latterly diminished among the natives of India ? — It has diminish- ed in the manner in which I have formerly stated, owing to the market being overstocked with those commodities. [The Witness withdrew.. Thos. Cockbum, THOMAS COCKBURN, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows ;, Esq. Mr. Jackson^] How long were you in the service of the East-India Com.!- pany ? — From 177 g to the close of 1802. Under which settlement r — The presidency of Madras. You were in the civil service ? — I was. Were you afterwards engaged as commissary to the army during the Alysore war ? — Yes ; I was commissary to the army during a part of the Mysore war; I was commissary to the army from 1/86 until 1793. Were you a member of the Board of Revenue ? — I was, from 1793 till the period of my departure from India. Did those different situations afford to you an ample opportunity of be- coming acquainted with the general character of the natives ? — They gave me an opportunity, but not so extensively as those who have made the languages of the country their study. At the period of my arrival in In- dia it was not the system of the Company's government at Madras to en- courage the study of the country languages; and the situations in which I was thrown immediately after my arrival, prevented me from giving that j EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 445 that attention to them, which would have enabled me to have had the Thos. Cockburu r advantage to be derived from the possession of them. Esq. Was your acquaintance with the natives sufficient for you to have a competent idea of their general manners and prejudices ? — I think it was. Had you, in your official character, much occasion to correspond with native collectors and other officers ? — Not with native officers directly ;. but through the collectors, and I had very constant communications with, all classes of natives personally. From this degree of personal communication described by you, could vou ascertain that their manners and opinions were of a fixed and un- changeable nature ? — Judging from- all I had read, in respect of the reli- gion, manners, and usages of the Hindoos, and comparing what I had read with what I saw when in India, I should think their manners and usages as unchangeable as it is possible to suppose the manners and usages of any people can be v I think they considered their prejudices and habits almost interwoven with their existence. Did their religious prejudices seem to be of a deep and rooted nature ? — I have stated, thar they considered their religious prejudices as interwoven* with their existence. Have their civil habits and customs been equally interwoven with their existence, according to your opinion ? — I believe their civil and religious- habits are inseparable* Are they, with regard to either, persons of very quick susceptibility ? . — I should certainly consider them so. Are not the Company's servants, civil and military, now directed upon their arrival to accomplish themselves in the country languages? — It is necessary on their entering into the service, that they should be master of some one of the languages ; and t ey always study them immediately upon their arrival, being sent to college for that purpose. As far as your experience has gone, has it not been amongst the strict injunctions of the government to their servants, to regard with sacred re- spect and attention both the civil and religious prejudices of the natives ? — It has been invariably so ; and the legislature of this country has, I be- lieve, provided in the 37th of the King, that respect shall be paid to their religious. '1 Ifi MiNUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Cmkkirn, religious habits and usages, and even to such customs as shall not be con- Esq. sistent with English ideas. ~y~ Have those injunctions, generally speaking, been obeyed ? — Generally speaking, 1 believe they have been obeyed. Has not the civil and military servants, thus acquainting themselves with the language of the natives, very materially contributed to their strict obedience to such injunctions ? — No doubt, they would have the means of earlier informing themselves with respect to those customs, which it would require a longer residence in the country, by those who are not masters of the languages to acquire. Generally speaking, have the natives, according to your experience, had reason to complain of the conduct of the Company's servants, either as to intentional or unintentional violation of those rules of respect for their civil or religious prejudices ? — I have no knowledge of a general want of attention to their religious and civil prejudices; I believe it may be ge- nerally said, theg reatestattention has been paid to them by the Compa- ny's servants, civil and military ; there can, of course, be no rule with- out exceptions. Are they not capable of involuntary offence from persons unacquainted with their usages and customs ? — Many instances, 1 believe, have occur- red of that. Be pleased to state such instances as occur to you at the present ? — I really cannot immediately state cases which have occurred within my particular knowledge ; but without narrating the circumstances that have occurred during the period of my residence in India in past times, and in the present times, I have heard of accidental causes having given rise to very great evils. State such circumstances as came to your knowledge ? — In many in- stances I have known this; but I cannot particularize the instances; I might go as far back as lt>70» when a tesident ata particular factory got a present of a bull dog from a captain of a ship, a d went out hunting with it, and the bull-dog unluckily fastened upon a cow that belonged to a pagoda .... During your residence in India, did any particular' instances of this description of involuntary offence come to your knowledge ? — I can speak only EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 447 only to general circumstances, that did not come to my knowledge, but Tlios.Cockburn 3 only from information. Esq. 1 , ■> - Have you observed new comers to be more liable to offend the nalives, than those who had previously made themselves acquainted with the lan- guage and customs of the natives ? — Certainly, they are much more liable to it ; they may doit frequently without being sensible that thev are com- mitting an offence ; they may go near to a man when he is dressing his victuals, which is an offence that would render it necessary to throw away his dinner ; they may do things without being at all aware they were com- mitting offences. Do you mean to state their prejudices to be of so strong a nature, that an 1 u r opean accidentally passing the food they should be dressing, would induce them, therefore, to throw away that food ? — If he passed withm that circle which they draw round the place where they are cooking their food, they would throw it away, if they were correct Hindoos. State in what other way new comers are more liable to give offence than those who have been there longer ? — I suppose there may be not less than fifty different sects of Hindoos, that have all their peculiar usages, which I am not acquainted with particularly; for I believe it would require a - life to study them ; where there are such a vast number of sects, it is im- possible to describe all the particular modes by which a Hindoo might be ' annoyed by an European, who was ignorant of those customs. Are such means by which they might be even unintentionally annoyed, • numerous and various ? — I should conceive them to be so. Have you observed among new comers, a disposition to tyrannize over the natives, from any conscious superiority of the European character ? — I believe it has very frequently occurred, that persons on their first arrival, are not so considerate of the natives as they should be. Supposing, that in consequence of an open trade from every port in the united kingdom to every port within the limits or the Company's Charter, a mateiial influ- of Europeans were t take place into India, what are your ideas as to 'he effect it mit:ht have, either upon the general happiness of the natives, or the welfare and stability of our ndian Empire ? — It is very' difficult to say what would be the effect of it ; it would very much depend -upon t! \4 regulations .made in this country, to prevent the evil that might arise from it ; and from the execution of such regulations in India. Supposing 4*5 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE . s.-Coikbui it, Supposing the influx to he material, and the access thus general, do you Esq. apprehend that such regulations, as you have hitherto observed or con- ^— v— — ' templated, could be effectual for such restraint ? — The regulations that existed when I was in India were, I believe, when a ship imported at any port on the coast where there was a master attendant and a custom house, for the master attendant to send to the ship for a list of passengers, and a list of the crew, describing their countries and pursuits, before obtaining which, no boat or any thing else was suffered to land from the ship ; if any of the persons on board that ship wished to proceed into the interior of the country, it was necessary to apply for a passport ; if on his arrival at the station to which the passport was granted, he wished to proceed fur- ther, anew passport must betaken out; all Europeans travelling without passport were liable to be stopped by the officers of Government dispersed over the country, and by the inhabitants of the villages who were re- warded for bringing in straggling Europeans of any description. Do you mean, that these regulations only took place in such parts wheie there was a master attendant of the custom-house } — I do ; because they could not be executed in other parts, where there was no master attendant, nor any custom-house, nor port regulation ; but I b lieve at most of the out-ports there were peons and officers under the direction of the collector, ■for the purpose, if possible, of preventing the ingress of Europeans. Do you mean, that these endeavours to prevent the ingress of European?, ■were used in such places as were under the government of the East India Company ? — Yes, under the government of the East-India Company, di- rectly under the Madras government. Are there not many ports on either side of the Peninsula, that are not ur.d-T the immediate authority of the East-India Co ^pany ? — Oi the Coromandel coast, from Cape Comorin to Calcutta, every part is under ■the immediate influence of the Madras government, I believe, with the exception of a small spot, where there is an independent Pulygar, of the name of Tondiman, the English influence prevails all round his country. As to the Malabar coast ? — The whole run of the Malabar coast up to Goa, is 1 believe, also under the English government, and subject of course to the regulations of the English government. Are there not parts on the Malabar coast, that are not subject to the East India Company ? — To Goa, they are, I believe, subject to the East- India Company ; and beyond that, I believe there is a small tiact which is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. A4§ is independent of the East-India Company; but I am not particularly Titos. Coykburn, acquainted with that part of the country, and therefore can only speak. Ksq, from ^hat I have heard and read on the subject ; I have never • een in V Y * that part of the country, nor had any particular infoimation of what pre- vails there. Do you apprehend a free trade capable of being earned on pro- fitably and effectually on either coast of India, unless the merchant or adventurer should have leave to follow his own merchandize, and super- intend the sale of it? — I am not aware where a merchant would have occasion to follow goods, carried from this country, into the interior of India; merchants who traded to India when I was there, found it must' advantageous, I suppose, to carry their cargoes where the best market was to be found, namely, the presidencies of Madras, Bombay, or Bengal ; and there they would find a sale either by retail or by cargo; but I do not believe that cargoes to any extent could be disposed of, so as to obtain a return cargo, but at a very great loss. Supposing the adventurers should think it most expedient for them- selves to accompany their merchandize into the interior, do you think it would be politically safe to allow them so to do ? — If by the question I am to understand an unrestrained resort into all parts of India, I should consider it as likely to produce very bad effects on the peace and happiness and comfort of the natives, and on the English interests in India; if re- straints were imposed, it might not have so prejudicial an effect. Will not the efficacy of such restraint very much depend upon the num- ber of persons who shall thus be admitted into the interior, as well as upon their rank and station in life ? — Certainly it would. Supposing so universal a free trade to India as that which has been stated, allowing to every person, from every port of the Urn ted Kingdom, to gowith his merchandize tolndia, whether confined to the three presidencies, and such ports as have garrisons or custom-houses, or whether allowed to every port within the limits of the Company'sCharter, is it not your opinion, that the number of adventurers thus introduced to India must, in the nature of things, be very considerable ? — I have already stated, that I do not believe any great number could, for the purposes of trade, go into the interior of the country; and while the laws, which preclude Europeans from holding or renting lands, without the permission of the governments of India, exist, I cannot perceive a probability of any very geat number 3M of 450 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Cockbimi, of Europeans taking up their residence in the interior ; if a great number Esq. were likely to take up their residence there, it would certainly require the 1 y~ ' utmost vigilance of the government, and the strictest execution of it*, regulations, to prevent evil consequences arising from it. Supposing such persons to be allowed to travel through India for the purposes of their commerce, would the danger be less ? — It would depend very much upon the quality and character of the persons who were to, travel through India, what the danger might be. Supposing them to be principally tradesmen and artificers ? — I should think it very probable, that tradesmen and artificers travelling through the country, would endeavour to seek employ with some of those native powers with whom we have connection, or who are not immediately connected with us, if very great encouragement was held out to them ; but under a vigilant execution of the regulations, I have already observed, I do not apprehend that many persons of that description could obtain a residence in the country. If the number of persons finding their way into the interior, should be considerable, is it your opinion that the danger would be in proportion to their number ? — It would be greatly increased of course as their number extended. Supposing them to be of the humble stations in life before described, do you think that the danger would be greater than if they were men of a superior order ? — Certainly. Supposing a native to be assaulted by a British European, can he proceed against him for such offence, but in one of three courts of Bom- bay, Madras, or Bengal ? — I believe he cannot ; but he would complain to the nearest magistrate, and if the complaint was found to be well founded, it would be the duty of the magistrate to take up such European, to bind over the witnesses, and to send him to the Presidency for trial; the law authorizes an European to prosecute a Native in the civil courts in the country, to any extent, the whole extent of his 'ortune; but an European is, by some construction of law, not considered amenable to the country courts except when, on being permitted to go up the country under the licence of the government, he enters into a bond to allow himself to be prosecuted to the extent of 500 rupees ; for any sum beyond that, if he should be from one to one thousand miles distant from any of the presidencies where the supreme courts sit, the native must. proceed EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 451 proceed to the presidency for the purpose of prosecuting his demand. I Thos. Cockbur n consider this one of the greatest grievances under which our British Esq. Indian subjects labour, and as it is only confined to British subjects, I also am compelled to consider it as a great injustice to our native subjects ; and I apprehend they must very much doubt our impartiality, when Europeans, not British subjects, are amenable to those courts. Can an European be criminally prosecuted by a native but in one of the three courts which have been named ? — He cannot ; and if I am to speak to matter of opinion I should say, except in case of life and death, he ought to be amenable to the country courts which are constituted under the legislative authority of this country. Those country courts arc governed by the native laws, arc they not ?-*- They are governed by the native laws, as far as relates to natives ; in the case of Mahometans they are regulated by the law of the Koran ; in the case of Hindoos by the law of Shasters. These are the only two descriptions of law which prevail in them, are they not ? — They are the only descriptions of law that prevail in them, except that the magistrates acting as justices of the peace are guided, as to Europeans, by the usual books of law for the guidance of justices of peace in this country. Do you mean to state, that such justices of the peace have it in their power to inflict punishment upon Europeans, or merely to bind over the prosecuting parties and to take security ? — Merely to bind over the prosecuting parties, and to take security. Do you concur in opinion, that the usual earnings of the great mass of the natives in such parts of India with which you are best acquainted, are from six to twelve shillings per month, or thereabouts ? — I have & statement of expences of a labouring man and his family at Madras which I had occasion to call for, for my own information : it was obtained for a purpose, that it was not likeiy to be undervalued ; this is a state- ment of expences of the family of a labourer, consisting of himself, his wife and five children, the eldest eight years old, and the youngest an infant ; they amounted in the aggregate to £\ 1. 6s. per annum, in which was included, for clothing for the entire family, 17s. and a fraction, for the whole year. [The Witness delivered in the paper, which was read as follows : 3 M 2 Abl MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Cockburn, EXPENCES and EARNINGS of the Family of a MADRAS LA- Esq. BOUR KR, consisting of himself, his IVife, and 5 Children, the eldest »— . T ' 8 years of age, the youngest an Infant. NECESSARIES : Rice for the Husband and Wife, at If") measure per Day / Curry Stuff ------ Suit Fish, or Green and Herbs - Firewood and Bratty - Lamp Oil for the Lamp, and Gingely Oil 1 for washing the Heads J Salt - Beetle Nuts and Tobacco - Rent of a Veranda or small Room 1 Boy of 8 years of age, | measure of Rice - 4 Infants - f d° d° 2 Man Cloth for a year 1 Turband d° - 2 Woman Cloth d° - Cloth for 4 Boys - — 22 40 - — 11 20 - — n — EARNINGS: Page, per Month. For the Man, at 3 Fanams per day 2 For the Woman, at If ri» (!• - 1 For the Boy of 3 years, at \ d« - — 22 40 3 22 40 rap- Deduct 1 § Months labour for the Man, \ „ for casualties - - - - J D° 4 Months labour for the Woman, ^ for casualties - - - -J D° 4 Months labour for the Boy, for casualties- - Savings }* Per Day. Pag. Fan. Cash, — 1 40 15 10 20 20 20 20 30 per Year. 42 Per Month. Pag. Fan. Cash. — 5 50 — 3 60 — 7 40 — 7 40 40 — 7 40 o — 7 40 — 11 20 2 8 10 £. s. d. (o 17 H) £. s. d. (II 6 li) £. t. d. .(13 4 0) £. s. d. (1 17 10J) Per Year. Pag. Fan. Cash. 26 & 10 2 S 60 28 U 70 33 4 33 10 [The further examination of this Witness was postponed. [The Witness withdrew. Adjourned to To-morrow, 1 1 o'Clock. Mcrcurij, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR*;. 453 Mercurij, 28 n die Si prills 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in The Chair. ALEXANDER FALCONAR, Esq. was again called in, and examined by the Committee as follows : Do you wish to give any explanation of your evidence of yesterday ? — Alex. Fakonar, I was apprehensive I had not made myself sufficiently intelligible to the Esq. Committee upon a question relative to the decrease, as it was put to me, of l — y ' the demand for European articles by the natives; I wish to explain it by saying, that as India has been of late years so overstocked with European articles as to render them drugs in the market, not only was the encou- ragement diminished for the further exportation of them from Europe by European traders, but the demand for them by the natives, who at all times purchase them as curiusities rather than as necessaries, was decreased in proportion as the articles became more familiar. When you speak of India, do you speak of India generally, or only the presidencies to which you were attached r — Of the parts subordinate to the Madras presidency. When you speak of late years, to what period do you allude ? — The last five or six years that I was in the country : I returned two years ago. Do you consider the population of the Portuguese, and half-cast people, to be very much increased within the last twenty years ? — I do consider it to have increased greatly, in proportion to the influx of European inha- bitants to India. Do you think that separating the commercial transactions of British India from those hands in whom the supreme government may be placed, would be consistent with the interests of the British empire in India and in Europe ? — I can only answer as far as my own experience goes, that I conceive the junction of those two powers, as they have been united in the hands of the East-India Company, to be more compatible with their inte- rests, and more conducive to their prosperity, than if they had been distinct, and if they were separated. Does it come to your knowledge, that many, if not most of the articles for the use of the Europeans, formerly brought from England, are now prepared 454 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Alex. Falconar* prepared at the presidencies by native workmen, under the direction and Esq. instruction of British artificers and artisans ? — The great proportion of those v y— _— ^ articles are now so prepared, at the presidency of Madras, by native arti- ficers, under the superintendence of European foremen. What proportion of price may they bear to the same articles imported from Europe ? — I imagine from one half to one third of the European price. For example, what might shoes cost, prepared by the native workmen under superintendence of Europeans ? — For eight shillings, five pair of shoes made by native workmen, of a quality in appearance to equal those of Europe, might be purchased. Of course they are not so strong ? — They appear so ; I have never worn any. Has that diminished the former import of those articles from England ; and is there a probability that the supply of those articles will in India progressively increase, and of course nearly stop the importation of them from Europe? — It will tend considerably to diminish the supply from Europe, but in what degree I am not prepared to say ; it has already tended to diminish that supply. Are carriages, and articles of tanned leather, and in the metals, also prepared by the native workmen under British artificers ?— All those arti- cles are prepared by native workmen. Are they at inferior prices ? — In comparative perfection, and on very moderate terms, by the native workmen. [The witness withdrew. THOMAS COCKBURN, Esq. was again called in, and further exa- mined as follows: Thos.Cockburn, Mr. Jackson.] Be pleased to proceed in your answer to the question Esq. proposed yesterday ? — The earnings of this family, allowing for casualties J and non-employment, amounted to thirty-three pagodas per annum ; the prices of provision at Madras are of course higher than in the interior of the country, and greatly higher than in Bengal ; and I beg leave to hand in the prices of the provisions included in the statement already referred to, at the period when it was given to me, in 1802. [The witness delivered in a paper, which was read, as follows :] TABLE -v- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 4-55 TABLE of the NECESSARIES of LIFE, generally in use among the Thos. Cochbur Esq. HINDOOS. « ^ » —■ G. F. E, A. B. C. D. Per Measure, Per Mercal, l'er Garce, Per 1'allem, Per Viss, Per Mauntl, Per Candy, = to = to = to = to = to =t to = to 2lbs. 14i°z- 231bs.a,yjOz. 9,2561bs. loz. 25 dec. 3lbs» 2oz. 25lb 5 . 5001 bs. English. English. English. English. English. English. English. H. I. J. Fans. Ch. Fans. Pag. Fans. Ch. Cash. Fans. Ch. Pags. Fans. Pags. Fans. 1 10 (lid) 9 (U.lhd.) HO '£32.) Nutcherry. . . . — 6o 6 (is. 0|d.) 53 16 70 (£21. 7j. Od.) — 25 12 40 (2s. 2jd.) 2 10 (\-s.9id.) 44 2 (£\7. 12s. 4$rf.) Chilly M __ _ 5 •1 40 — 20 8 40 (5th of id.) (5}d.) (3s. Hd:) (£3- Us. ljd.) Tamarind .... — — 1 bO — 14 (2s. 5id.) 6 10 (£2. 9,: 9$d.) Turmarick.. . . — 7-i 3 60 (8d.) — 30 '(5s. 4^0 13 15 (£4. 8s. lojd.) — — — 5 (5th of id.) 2 40 (51*0 — 20 (3s. 6H) 8 40 (£3' Us. ljd.) Cummin Seeds — ' 15 (id.) 7 40 0>.4d.) 1 15 (10s. 8d.) 26 30 (£10. 13s. 4d.) , , _ _ u 6 3 10 — 25 11 5 (6id.) (4s. 5Jd.) (£4. 8s. 10|d.) — • 11 8*) 5 40 (ii W — 44 (7s. lOd) 19 25 (£7. 16s. 5|d.) — — 5 2 40 (5id.) — 20 (3*. 6|d.) 8 40 (£3. Us. l'Jd.) N Ghev .«_ __ ___ "f 8 60 1 25 31 5 j (id.) (Is. 64 d.) (12s.5*d.) (£l2.8s.l0$d.) Boiled Nuts. . . — — "~" —— 24 14 — (2s. 6|d.) 2 22 (19s. xoii.) 48 40 (£19. lis. I^d.) A. 1 Pallem — 1 oz £5 dr. H. 1 Pagoda = 8 Shillings. B. 40 Pdllem 1 Viss == 3 lbs. 2 oz. I. 45 F.manis — 1 Pagoda. C. 8 Viss 1 Maarid == 25 lbs. J. 80 Cash = 1 Faiuin. D. 20 Mi unds 1 Candy = iOOlbs. E. 1 Ga reels' 9,256 lbs. N. B The Cash is a copper coin, 37| to a penny, F. 400 Mercajs = 1 Garce. coined and sent from England to India. G. S Measures = 1 Mercal. IN the interior, the price of labour and of living must of course be much lower than at Madras; I had an opportunity of knowing the price of labour in the interior, in consequence of my situation at the Board of Revenue, 456 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE < ~v— T/ios. Cockbum, Revenue, and know that it is much lower. I have also a statement of the Esq. expences and earnings of a middling family, composed of six men, a boy 1 of five years of age, and twelve women, in all nineteen persons : the person to whom I allude was in the situation of a Dubash, who k-reps a hackerry, a carriage used in that country, with two bullocks : the whole expenses of this family amounted per annum to rwo hundred pounds and a fraction sterling ; of which the expence for clothing the whole family, for the year, amounted to about thirty-two pounds sterling. [The Witness delivered in the paper, which was read, as follows :] EXPENCES of a MADRAS middling HINDOO FAMILY, of Six Men, a Boy of 5 years of age, and 12 Women s — in all 19 Persons. SO Mercalls of Rice, at 1 Mercall per day ; at 5 Mercallsper Pagoda --------- 30 Measures of d?, at 1 Measure per day, for the daily Beggars, Sec -------- 50 d? of Nutcherry, is 3f Mercalls per month ; at 8 Mercalls per Pagoda -------- S d? of Doll and Green Gram - . d? - - at 4 d? - Buxar Expenses, such as Ghey, Spices, and Curry Stuff, &c. 500 Billets of Firewood, 2 22 40, Bratty, 22 40 - 30 Bundles of Beetle, at 1 Bundle per day, at 1 30 each - — 41 20' o 4.;) 5 Viss of Boiled Nuts, at 15 Fanams per Viss 1 30 — I (13». 4d.) 1 d? of Tobacco - — 7 20 (la 3id.) J 9 Measures of Lamp Oil, Fanams 54, Gingely Oil, 1 Mea- sure, 7 --------- Sundry Expences in Fanams, and for Vegetables, such as firinjals; Planteens, Potatoes, &x. for Currys i Carried forward - Pag. Fan. Cash. — 33 60 (6»0 — 22 — {3s- lid.) (8*0 (&■) (£\. 4»0 2 33 40 (£i. is. lljrf.) I 16 — (10s. lO^d.) (£20 25 15 20 I {£\0.-2s. 8i.v.) EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 457 EXPENSES of a MADRAS middling HINDOO FAMILY. (continued.) Thos. Coclcbum, E-^q. V J * Brought forward HACKERRY EXPENSES. Horse Gram for the Two Bullocks : 90 Measures, at 3 Measures per day, at 8 Mercalls per Pagoda ------ Straw, 20 Bundles, at 4 Fanams per Bundle Hackerry Driver's Pay - 1 Servant, 1 Pagoda - - 1 Washer, 22 40 Cloth for the Men and Women, for a year Father and elder Brother's Anniversaries Expenses of Bengal Feast 1 18 20 (lis. lid.) 1 35 — )- (Us. 3jd.) 1 33 60 (1.4*0 - 80 {£32.) . 25 (£io.) 12 ) 120 ( - - (Per Ann. £48.) - - Total Expense for a Month Total per Ann. Pag. Tan. Cath. 25 15 20 (£10. 2*. i\i.) 4 42 — (£1. 19s. 5i<*0 1 22 40 (120 31 34 DO (£12. 14s. 2rf.) 10 — (£40 41 34 60 (,£16. 14s. 2d. per Month.) £2UQ. \0s. THE Dubash is considered as a superior sort of person ? — A person of the middling rank, and in a higher sphere, from his keeping a hackerry, and being employed as an interpreter. What is the u ual occupation and situation of the persons you call Dubashes ? — They are employed as agents, as interpieters, as merchants under Europeans, and in a variety of shapes. 3 N Ars 458 MINUTES' OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Cockbuni, Are they frequently employed as stewards, in taking care of the pecu- Esq. niary concerns of the Europeans ? — Yes, always; and are themselves very <— y— — ' often merchants. Are they, generally speaking, considered as persons of property ?— Generally speaking, they are persons of medium property ; many of them, I believe, live more upon salaries and emoluments derived from their masters, than having any property of their own ; though there are also many of them possessed of considerable property. Have you contemplated the probable earnings of such a person ? — ■ That is impossible, it would depend entirely upon the extent of his dealings, and the particular situations he was placed in. Can you give any general idea of the probable earnings of such a person* supposing him to be employed in the affairs of an European ? — It is not in my power to give an answer; I do not know any standard by which I could ascertain the income of a man who was employed in his own concerns, and perhaps obtaining undue advantages from his master. Would it be to the amount of several hundreds a year sterling ?— I cannot form an opinion. The calculation you have put in, respects a family, and not an indivi- dual, and residing at Madras ? — Yes. State the ordinary earnings of an individual in the interior, in the Madras establishment, or any other with which you are acquainted ? — I should consider the expense of a labouring man in the interior would vary of course according to the situation and the price of provisions ; but I suppose that in some situations it would be two thirds of the expense at Madras, and in others one half. Can you give the Committee any idea, per week or per month, what a native would earn ? — If it was two-thirds or one half, it would be two- thirds or one-half of the statements I have already given in. Wi;h no greater income than this, is not the power of prosecuting in either <;f the supreme courts, and conducting witnesses to them, utterly out of the question ? — Utterly impracticable, at a distance from the pre- sidencies ; but in cases where witnesses and prosecutors are in poverty, it is the usage of the Company's government to allow a batta to witnesses proceeding EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 459 proceeding to the presidencies, I believe, about two annas per day, Thos Cockbum, amounting to about threepence or threepence halfpenny; and in parti- Esq. cular cases where the party may be considered as a pauper, the regula- ' -y ' tions provide for the expenses of the prosecutor being paid : but at a distance from the presidencies those indulgences would be of very little use to a man who must forsake his family, his pursuits, and his means of livelihood, for the purpose of carrying on such a prosecution. If aggression towards the natives should increase in proportion to the number of new adventurers, and the difficulties of appealing to the supreme court remain as great as they are at present, might it not, in your opinion, drive the natives to despair, or ultimate revenge, or disaf- fection towards the British government ? — Of course, in proportion as occurrences of this nature took place, of oppressions from Europeans to the natives, so it would naturally indispose the natives to the British government ; but unless it can be supposed that you are speaking of an extreme ca>e, it is difficult to believe that it would have any immediate effect in producing rebellion: in proportion, however, as the religious habits and usages and customs of the natives are infringed by Europeans, so of course would they be ready to join any power that might give them a hope of being relieved from oppression. I do not consider, speaking generally, that the native British subjects of India can have any motives for union, so as to at all affect the permanency of the British government in India, so long as the perfect toleration of their reli- gion, their usages, their prejudices, the government of their own families, and security for their persons and property, are allowed to them. Do you mean, by infringement of their religious habits, or prejudices, or customs, offence to them, whether intentional or inadvertent ? — Casual and inadvertent offence would be distressing to them ; but it would not proba- bly have any very violent effect, if they found that they were likely to meet redress from those to whom they had a right to complain, unless it was in a very extended degree, which supposes a very great increase of Euro- pean population in the interior of the country j and, as I have observed yesterday, I am not aware, so long as Europeans are precluded from hold- ing lands, or employing themselves in the cultivation or renting of lands, without the sanction of government, that any great numbers of Europeans would find any legitimate object in residing in the interior. Supposing legal redress to be as difficult to be obtained as you have described, would not offences such as have been alluded to, deeply affect the peace and happiness of the natives, although it might aot provoke 3 N 2 then* 460 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos Cockl'urn, them to ultimate rebellion ? — T should think it destructive of their peace Esq. and happiness ; I of course allude to Europeans of the lower orders, from *^___ ' their habit of indulging in drinking; where a quart of spirits may be obtained for twopence or twopence halfpenny, it may naturally be sup- posed that great disorders would follow. Does not the stability of the British empire in India, in your opinion, very much depend upon the high opinion which the natives entertain of the European character, and particularly of the Company's government ? — I believe the stability of the British government in India to depend, prin- cipally, upon the jusiice and impartiality with which the laws are admi- nistered, and on complete protection, as I have already explained, being afforded to the natives. Do you include in that answer their ideas of the superiority of the British character ? — Their ideas of the British character must be entirely founded upon the conduct of the British government, generally speaking, to the inhabitants at large ; individual injuries do not, I conceive, make so deep an impression upon them. In fact, do the natives in your opinion, entertain a very high idea of the superiority of the European or British character ? — They do, certainly. If Europeans in consequence of their increased numbers, and propor- tionate increased offences towards the natives, should become the object of frequent legal punishment, might not that materially lower, in the opinion of the natives, their present ideas of the superiority of the Euro- pean character ? — The frequent recurrence of such trials would, no doubt, lower the character of Europeans, generally speaking, in the eyes of the natives, because it would more familiarize them to their bad habits and practices ; but I should conceive that their frequently seeing them punished for offences against themselves, would not tend to lower the general cha- racter of the British government in the opinion of the natives. Would such circumstance tend to degrade and lower the European people themselves in the eyes of the natives? — I should not suppose that, speaking generally, it could have that effect, in the light in which I have stated it, because it would seem that to punish an European for a crime committed against a native, would rather make them believe that they were sure of protection, even against the Europeans themselves ; but in giving this opinion, I must distinctly state, that I should consider a great increase of European population in the interior of India, unrestrained, or even EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR?. 461 even under restrictions, which in an extensive country are difficult to be Thos.Cockburn, carried into execution, (the zillahs or districts, wherein only one magis-- Esq. trate resides, extending, I believe, from four to ten thousand square miles) *>■ v ' must inevitably produce a great deal of interference and mischievous con- sequences to the Indian population, especially if they were led to believe that it was likely to lead to the occupancy of lands by the Europeans so situated. If Europeans were made amenable to the native courts, would not that, in your opinion, lessen the ideas of the natives with respect to European superiority, and that deference for the European character which the natives now appear to feel towards them ? — The deference to the European character among the natives of India must be founded, not only on their physical strength and greater superiority of understanding, generally speak- ing, but upon the justice which they experience from them ; and, if all Europeans who seek to reside in the interior of India with the licence of the Company's government, and who g) there for their own advantage, and of their own free-will, were to be made amenable in all cases, except life and death, to the country courts, I mean the courts of appeal and of circuit, where European judges preside, which courts are authorized by the legislature of this country, I am of opinion that it would be considered by the natives that the English acted with justice and impartiality. I think that it is one of the greatest evils that they can suffer, to be under the ne- cessity of seeking justice, as I have already stated, at so great a distance. In the explanation I gave yesterday upon the subject of the couris, I believe I omitted to state, that all persons employed by the Company or by Europeans in India were, by a construction of law, not supposed amenable to the country courts ; and when I was in Bengal in the year 1802, numerous persons who had committed murder, being sepoys in the employ of the Company and others, were confined, because the govern- ment, under a reference made upon that subject, did not feel that they had the power to order their execution ; and that therefore the evils which I have explained, would be greatly extended unless some subsequent act, since 1802, has remedied the evil. A reference had been made to tng- land upon this subject, which had not been answered at the time I left India. Another inconvenience, arising out of the undefined powers of the supreme courts, and those of the country courts, existed when 1 was in Bengal ; the courts of sudder and foujdarry adawlut at the presidency, the former being the chief court of civil, and the latter of criminal jurisdiction, were not allowed or supposed to have any concurrent jurisdiction in Cal- cutta; 1 mean, that if the sentence of the court was to be executed by a person, having come to Calcutta, in regard to whom an appeal was made, and 462 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Cockburn, and a decree had issued, it was alleged there was no authority vested in the Esq. sudder courts to take up such person ; and 1 was given to understand, that *■ y ' any attempt at such an arrest, if resisted and death ensued, would be con- sidered as murder, and therefore, the only legal mode of proceeding in such a case, was to institute some other suit in the supreme court, thereby adding to the heavy expenses which had accumulated in the progress of the trial in a zillah court, in the court of appeal or circuit, and in the sudder court. Having stated these circumstances on my return from India, Lord Cornwallis mentioned them to the Chairman of the Court of Directors, and measures were I believe adopted, or were about to be adopted, for remedying the evils ; I mention them now, lest that should not have been effectually done. Did you mean to say that the judges of either of the supreme courts, or the recorder's court, attended the court of circuit ? — Neither. Do not you know that such courts do not entertain criminal juris, diction, with respect to British Europeans ? — The inferior courts do not. Do the courts of circuit? — They do not ; I was referring to natives in the employ of the Company. Are not what are called the zillah courts wholly distinct from the cir- cuit courts ? — They are ; there is an appeal from the zillah court to the circuit court in its civil jurisdiction ; and from the circuit to the sudder court; and from the sudder court, if the cause at action be above five thousand pounds, to the King in council in England. The zillah court means a district court ? — It does, of civil juris- diction. Does either the zillah court, or the court of circuit, or any court short of one of the supreme courts, entertain criminal jurisdiction over British Europeans ? — They do not entertain criminal jurisdiction over Europeans; hut the magistrate in the zillah court is, or ought to be, a justice of the peace, and ought, on all occasions of complaint against an European, to inquire into such complaints, and if they be of a flagrant nature, to attach his person, and to send him to Calcutta, Madras, or Bombay, as the case may be, for trial. If the magistrates of the zillah court had the power to try and punish British EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 462 British Europeans, would it not materially tend to degrade and lessen their Thos. CocHvm, consequence in the eyes and estimation of the natives? — I cannot doubt Esq. that it would have that effect in a great degree; but at the same time, it ' -v ' would give them proofs of the justice of the English government in general. Would not taking away from the East-India Company a material part of its commercial authority, materially lessen, in the eyes and in the opi- nions of the natives, their weight and consequence? — Unless I understood what was meant by a material part of their commercial authority 1 aru not aware that I could answer the question. Would not the admission of rival traders into India, against the known consent of the Company, materially shake their weight and consequence in the eyes and in the opinion of the natives ? — I should think an unre- strained admission of Europeans, under any plea, into the interior of In- dia, very destructive to the English interests in India, and therefore destructive to the Company who have the government of India. Supposing such admission to be against the known consent of the Company, would it not lower their weight and consequence in the opi- nion of the natives ? — It would make the natives feel that persons had a right to go into the interior, without either the sanction or consent of the government, and naturally give rise to an idea that the government had no controul over them ; and therefore would, no doubt, very much lessen the respect due to the authorities of the governments in India. Would a belief or opinion on the part of the natives of colonization by British settlers, be to them an acceptable or an alarming idea ? — [ should, in my own opinion, consider it pregnant with the most baneful consequences; it would utterly destroy the confidence of the people of India in the faith and justice of the British government, who have, in the regulations that have been promulgated throughout India, solemnly declared, that in all the changes made by those regulations, they have only in view to secure to the natives of India entire freedom of religion, habits and usages, and entire controul in their own families, according to the laws of the Shaster and Koran ; which regulations have been so far affirmed, that they have been legalized by acts of the legislature of this country ; viz. Q. 1st of the King, chap. 70. ; 37th of the King, chap. 142 ; and an act in 1800. Supposing a persuasion to take place on the part of the natives, that British 461- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Cockburn, British colonization were about to take place, what consequences do you Esq. apprehend from such a belief? — The consequence of indisposing them to 5 y J the British government, and of their taking the first opportunity of re- lieving themselves from what they would consider their oppressors. Would British adventurers possessing themselves of land, lead to a per- suasion of that kind on the part of the natives? — Undoubtedly, if it was suffered t » any extent, and irregular means were used to possess them- selves of lands; hut as the law now stands, any European who may sur- reptitiously get possession of lands in any way whatever, is liable to have them forfeited, and himse.f recalled to the presidency. Though Europeans are not allowed to purchase lands, are they not al- lowed to hold land by lease to the extent of fifty begahsin Bengal ? — They are, by the smcrion of the go\ernment, allowed to have lands to a certain extent, for the purposes of their dwelling houses; and on some occasions, that indulgence has been extended for the purposes of endea- vouring to make improvements ; but all under the strict regulation of the government. "What proportion of English measurement is fifty begahs ? — I believe there are about three begahs to an acre in some places, and five begahs to two acres in others. By the terms of the leases or pottas, are they not entitled to hold the land as long as they pay the established quit-rent ; and does not this give such Eu opeans the means of building habitations and manufactories, ai.d holding them up the country, as permanent property ? — I never recollect that without the circuit of ten miles from the presidency of Madras, where !ea?es, I believe, are granted for ninety-nine years, that any lands vveie granted for an extended period; but when such lands are granted, the partie, enter into a specific agreement with government, which con- tains clauses for the sccu ity of the natives with whom they may have dealings, if any cultivators happen to be resident within the space of lands so allotted ; and where it may be waste land, there is, I believe, ge- nerally a definite period of possession given ; it is always considered re- sumable by government, in the event of failure in any of the conditions upon which it was granted. Is it the zemindar, or the British government, that grants the Jease ? — If in a zcmindary, I should suppose the government would be more cau- tious in granting a lease, and in specifying the particular terms on which it EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 465 it should be granted, than if in luvelly lands, over which they have Thos. Cockhurn, entire controul. . Esq. Can you say, in point of fact, whether such lease would be granted by the government 01 by the zemindar ?-— It cannot be granted by a zemindar but by the sanction of the British government ; and not only by the sanc- tion of the British government, but if an European applied for any portion of land belonging to a zemindar, his application would be re- ferred to the collector in whose district the land was situate ; a specific report would be made of every thing that related to it, its measurement and extent ; and the government, with this information before them, would then sanction, if they thought proper, the occupancy of such land by an European, upon such terms as might be defined and agreed to. In point of fact and form, is the lease granted by the zemindar or not ? — I know of no possibility of a lease being granted by a zemindar to art European, since the granting of that lease, and the possession of that land, would subject an European to its forfeiture, and to be recalled to the presidency, unless he had the sanction of the government. Can a lease, unJer the permanent settlement, be granted by any but a zemindar? — The lands within the jurisdiction of a zemindar, can only be leased by a zemindar ; but a zemindar cannot lease any of his land to an European, without infringing the law of the country, and subjecting the European to the penalties attaching to it. Do you mean to say there are no leases granted by zemindars to Euro- peans ? — Not within my knowledge, without the sanction of government ; in former times, such circumstances might happen, but not since the re- gulation and introduction of law and strict superintendence : I confine my statements to Madras ; it may be very different in Bengal. If from a free trade, or any other cause, the number of Europeans at the presidencies were much increased, have you any doubt from your ex- perience in India, that there would be among them, men of shattered fortunes or restless tempers, who would be anxious, with or without licence, to get into the interior ? — I can very easily suppose, that men of shattered fortunes would go any where, and endeavour, by every means in their power to better them ; and if they went to India to better their fortunes, they certainly would endeavour to accomplish the object which they had in view. . ' 3 O Would -^ 466 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE TJws.Cockburn, Would they be likely, in your opinion, to endeavour the accomplish- Esi|. ment of that object, by getting into the interior of the country ? — If by *■— — -v ' getting into the interior of the country they could promote that obje'cr, 1 have not the smallest doubt they would endeavour to do so. If such persons got into the interior, would they not, in your opinion, find reception and employment among the native chiefs or princes ? — r do not suppose that it would be easy for any number of Europeans to find access into the interior, through the Company's districts, from the re- straints imposed in the manner which I stated in my evidence of yester- day : I have no doubt that those who did obtain access there, would find employment under some of those chiefs who may have a desire to obtain, a superiority over their neighbours by the employment of Europeans in forming their troops, because they have an idea, that most Europeans are good soldiers. Do they entertain that idea, in a considerable degree, of private Euro- peans being accomplished soldiers ? — They have that opinion, because they have generally found them forward in their exertions when they have had occasion to employ them ; and they are generally supposed capable of drilling men, and of leading them. Do you think that the treaties between the Company and the native princes would be effectual to prevent their entertainment of such Euro- peans, if such were their desire ? — I do not know ; there are many of that description of chiefs alluded to, who have not treaties with the Company ; those who have treaties with the Company have residents at their durbars, I believe ; but if they had an object in obtaining a force, possibly w ith an • ulterior view of opposing the very objects of those treaties, or of gaining an ascendancy over their neighbours, it is piobable that they would na- turally wish for the aid of Europeans; and they certainly might entertain Europeans without its being very probable that the residents themselves should gain information of it, they would of course not entertain them at their durbars, where the resident was, but in distant parts of their countries ; and I do not believe that the resident is allowed to have people attached to him to pervade the country ; at the same time, he would be wanting in his duty if he did not completely inform himself of every thing ihat was passing within the range of the authority of the person with whom he re- sided ; their subordinate chiefs might also be employed for the purpose of entertaining Europeans, where the controul of the resident would not reach; but the great difficulty of reaching their object would probably not enable many Europeans to obtain such establishments. Supposing EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 4G7 Supposing political intrigue or military service to be the object, is it Thou. Cockhum, your opinion, contemplating the proposed access to every p^rt or India on E^q either side of the Peninsula, and from every part of the United Kingdom, I v > that such persons would be enabled to find their way to the service or such princes, if they were disposed to entertain them ? — I observed in my evidence yesterday, that the regulations were very strict within the Com- pany'sjurisdiction, and detailed the existing regulations for the prevention of Europeans going into the interior; but where men have an object in view, it is of course still possible that they may defeat the best regulations, if those regulations are not vigilantly and efficiently executed ; and it may also be supposed that persons who had the view ot going into the interior, would naturally avoid the dominions of the Company where such restric- tions prevailed. If all persons going out in ships from this country, were as at present registered, and if copies of those registers were transmitted to India, it would be in the power of the government to know all persons who were included in those lists, and endeavour to see that the same per- sons returned in the ships in which they came out ; but persons might be on board those ships not included in the lists, who might proceed to si- tuations where the Company's power did not extend, and thereby get into the interior ; but unless men had some very particular object in view, some particular certain advantage they were to derive from it, I should still think that not many of them would obtain their object. Supposing such object to be some political employ, or some military rank, or any other paramount and earnest object, do you mean to say, that such persons would not have the means ot getting into the service of chiefs ? — That implies a superior class of Europeans to the persons whom I am speaking of, and I should then think it still more difficult tor them to get into the interior, because they would more probably become known to some persons in India, connected with the government, or with the offi- cers of government ; I shall not say that Englishmen, or Scotchmen, or Irishmen, employed in official stations, would not sometimes be inclined to favour their countrymen, and thereby they might certainly some of them get into the country. Be pleased to say, contemplating so universal an access, as has been described, to the territories of independent princes, as well as the territories of the East- India Company, supposing the object of the parties to be of a paramount and earnest nature to themselves, whether or not you think they could make their way to the service of those native chiefs or pro- vinces, if they were disposed to entertain them ? — It is a question which is yery difficult to answer. In a country, I mean British India, the extent 3 2 of 468 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON "HIE Thos. Cockburn, of which, I believe, is not much less than 320 or 330,000 square miles, it Isq. is very difficult to know what avenues might be found to elude the best *• y J regulations. I have stated my opinion of the regulations established by the Company, where their power extend-, an 1 the effect they would have,, if vigilantly executed, in preventing any great ingress of Europeans; but through other channels, the Gltlf of P. j vsia, and up beyond the Com- pany's possesions belonging to Bmibav, if there were great advantages offered by the native chiefs and princes of the country, there can be no- doubt that many Europeans would seek their fortunes there. Does a British resident with a na'.ive prince always reside where the native prince resides? — I believe, generally, because the object of his ap- pointment is to attend where the durbar is held. Does he, in point of fact, according to your experience and knowledge; reside or not, where the native prince resides ?• — I do not know whether he resides, or does not reside, where the native prince may reside, but his duty is to reside at the durbar of such prince ; it is probable the prince may go into the country, and say to the British resident, you will remain at your own quarters while I make the tour ot my country : 1 do not sup- pose that the British resident would have the power to say, I will accom- pany you, or if he had, that it would perhaps be desirable that he should exert such an authority, unless he suspected that the prince had objects inimical to the interests of the government whom he represented, and then, no doubt, he would follow him wherever he went, because it would be his duty so to do. Might not Europeans be collected in distant parts of the territories of such chiefs and princes, without the knowledge of our residents ? — Cer- tainly, they might, in my opinion. Would not those dangers then be still greater as to those chiefs and princes with whom we have no such treaties, or where it may happen that there are not residents ? — Certainly, it would be more in the power of such persons to entertain Europeans in their service without the English government getting a knowledge of it, not having residents upon the spot. From the experience you have had and your knowledge of the wishes and wants of the natives, do you apprehend that there is room to hope for any materially increased consumption of European articles by the natives? — I do not apprehend, from what appears to be the usages and habits ot the natives, and from the articles they in general use, that any great increase of EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 469 of consumption amongst the natives of British manufactured articles can Thos.Cockburn y be expected ; it is reason ible to suppose that as population increases con- Esq. sumptiort must increase, in a certain degree, of such articles as they may « w > have been in the habit of using ; but it is very difficult for any man to say whether there mav not be some articles that may not hereafter be required by the natives, though, in my own opinion, I think there never can be any great extent of demand. The wants of the people of Indra are very fevv;- the table of necessaries which I have given in, shews what articles are used for their general consumption ; and unless some of the articles of Europe should enter into the general consumption of India, I do not think that we can expect any great extension of the consumption of Eu- ropean articles among them ; but there has been a great increase of con- sumption of European articles for the Europeans in I.idia and the descendants of Europeans in India, and that will increase in proportion • to the increase of those descriptions of population. Can you name any new article which, in the course of your long experience, has been introduced into native consumption ? — I am not aware of any new article ; I believe they have used a few empty bottles for the purpose of keeping ghee and oil and such things, in addition to a few woollen articles ; thev used very few carriages while I was at Madras, there were not above three or four natives who had carriages ; they use sometimes a few glasses ; the metals of course were used, iron and copper ; but I never was engaged in trade there, and therefore can only speak generally to those points. Those are articles which, from the time you have had any means of ' observing them, with the exception of bottles, they have used !•. — Yes.. During that period, has it appeared to you that the demand for such articles for native consumption has increased ? — It undoubtedly has in- creased, from the period I went to India, but in a very small degree ; nor am I aware how it is probable that any very great increase of it can take- place among ..the na'ives. According to your experience have the natives throughout India, .as far as your knowledge extends, uniformly had the means of full and ample supply of such F.uropean articles as they might require under the present system of the East India Company's trade ? — As far as I know, the* have had an ample supply of all the articles imported by the Companv and by individual traders : the only proof that I can offer that these supplies have been . 4-70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Tlws. Cockbum, been ample, is, that on the 30th of April in the year 1793, it appears that Esq. there were in the Company's warehouses in India imported goods from v - v 1 Europe to the amount, I believe, ot about one hundred and fifty-nine thousand pounds unsold, and that on the 30th of April 1809, there were upwards of one million sterling imported European goods in the Company's warehouses unsold ; I believe the Company h..d in the intermediate period between 1793 and 1809, very much increased their exports from this country; this shows, therefore, that consumption did not follow the in- creased export. Do the values of goods in the warehouses in India, at the times men- tioned by you, come within your own knowedge ? — No; I speak from the accounts which have been laid before parliament. Do those relate to goods in warehouses at Madras? — No; Madras, Bombay, Bengal and Bencoolen, I believe ; and at Madras the stock, as may be seen by the accounts, was very much increased in like manner as the general stock of the warehouses throughout India. You mean that the stock in hand at Madras was increased in the same proportion ?— Yes. According to your observation, have the bazars generally been fully and well supplied with European articles ? — There are in the bazar particular native shops for European articles and for China articles, and for all the various articles that are produced in the country ; and, I believe, there is nothing brought to India from Europe, that is not to be found in them for purchase. According to your opinion whatever wants the natives may have had for European articles, have they had full and ample means of supplying themselves therewith ? — Of the articles imported by the Company, and by individuals who naturally, I should suppose, would carry out whatever was likely to turn to their advantage, they have had the means, because the Company make their sales by public auction, and many individuals are compelled to do the same to get rid of their goods; and therefore they ha\e an opportunity of buying them generally cheap. Can you name any European article, which the natives have required for their wants, which they have not had the means of purchasing? — I have no knowledge of any European article, which the natives require for their general use ; they may use some of them as luxuries. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 471 Can you name any European article which the natives have been desi- Thos. Coclcburn, rous of purchasing, and which they had not had the means of purchasing ? Esq. — I do not know what they might have desired ; there might be many < v ' things they desired, that they had not the means of purchasing; the op- portunity of purchasing they certainly had, if they had the means. When it has happened that natives have possessed or acquired consi- derable property, have they directed its expenditure materially towards the purchase of European articles, or in native, or other indulgencies of a different nature ? — In the part of India where I resided, the natives generally employed their superfluous wealth in the expenses of the marriages of their children, in the ceremonies performed on their father's death ; and besides these, the richer classes of them employ large sums in repairing pagodas; digging tanks, where no water is otherwise to be had, for the travellers and the cattle ; wells for the comfort of travellers; choultries, or refectories for their convenience, where no shelter could be otherwise had ; and for charitable purposes, which every native of any fortune or distinction feels it his duty, as it is prescribed by his religion,, to bestow. Can you say, that you have discovered any material inclination towards the purchase of European articles for the purposes of such celebrations as you have referred to ? — I have frequently been at marriages and cere- monials, and on such occasions have had an opportunity of observing some glasses and small lustres, as matter of ornament ; but the European articles used on such occL>ions for the convenience of the Europeans, who were invited to attend, are generally borrowed from the Europeans, their masters, or others. Can you say whether the natives increase either in the practice or the ca- pability of manufacturing what are called European articles ? — I do not re- collect any article in particular of European manufacture that they make, except carriages, which are produced by the native artificers, employed under the superintendence of Europeans, who make very good carriages; the natives themselves make plate, and have done so time immemorial, and very curious workmen they are, as will be seen by the Tritchinopoly chains exhibited in this country. Do they make boots and shoes ? — Yes, boots and shoes with and without the intervention of Europeans ; but since European artificers have resided there, they make better shoes and boots, for they have excellent tanned leather 4-72 « MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE u£koS; Cockbum, leather, which was not the case in my time, I only know it from those Esq. who have returned from the country lately, it was introduced by one J -y J person; I believe there are other articles that they imitate: there is nothing that they cannot make if you give them a pattern, instructionsj and materials. ' According to your observation, did the practice of making such ar- ticles appear to increase ? — Very much, I believe, so as much to decrease the-number of European carriages carried out there. Looking to the degree of ingenuity you have described, their power of imitation, and the extreme disparity of wages between that country and this, does it appear to you that any material accession of European artificers might or might not tend, in a great degree, to supersede the necessity of import from this country ? — Certainly it would have the effect ; in proportion as India manufactured for herself, so of course it would lessen the necessity of imports from this country of those articles which they could manufacture. The Committee is to understand you to be of opinion, that the native manufactures of what are called European articles would considerably increase ? — The native manufacture of what are called European articles would increase, if the buyers could purchase them cheaper from the native manufacturers, and found them more durable than the European article. Looking to the immense disproportion of the price of labour, the expenses of freight, and the various charges of merchandize, have you any doubt that they will be able to manufacture so considerably cheaper, as to produce that encouragement ? — If the question refers to carriages and articles of that description used among Europeans, I have no doubt that the artificers of India under European direction, v. ould be enabled completely to supply the market, if the article was cheaper and more durable than what was imported from Europe, as I have already ob- served j I think they could make them cheaper. Be pleased to state such articles as you think, so assisted, and with such advantages, they could not manufacture ? — I reallv do not recollect ; I could not specify them, there ari such innumerable articles. Do you think that such articles as are generally consumed by Europeans in India, will not bye-and bye be imitated and ma>'e by the natives, in- structed by European artists ? — A great portion of the articles that are carried EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. , 473 carried from England to India for the consumption of Europeans, are Thos.Cockburn, articles of consumption for eating and drinking ; broad-cloth cannot be Esq. made in India, as it now stands, unless the wool is carried out there for ^~ — v ' the purpose of making it, the wool of that country being, unless very far to the northward, too much of a hairy quality to make good broad- cloth. Does any other article occur to you which they would not be able to make ? — Iron they can make in any quantity that is desired, for they have the best materials for so doing ; steel they make very good ; copper is to be found there, but not in great quantities, at least where the mines have been tried they have not been found very productive ; there may be many articles which, if I had possession of an invoice of those articles that are used by Europeans in India, I might be able to point out : hats they could not manufacture unless instructed by Europeans ; if instructed by Europeans, there is plenty of hare-skins and rabbit-skins to be found in the country, from which they might make hats ; for most of the articles which are for the consumption of Europeans, in the way of carriages, the materials are to be found in India. But it is not in my power to state all the articles which the natives are or are not competent to manufacture : the articles that are in general consumption in India for Europeans or other persons, are so universally known by those that are concerned in the trade, that it will be easy for persons in possession of that information, to judge what may or may not be manufactured by natives under European superintendence. Assisted by the advantages that have been described, the natives of India either do, or in your opinion speedily will attain a capacity of making such, the materials for which maybe found in India? — I think their capacity is equal to the making of any thing that materials can be found for ; whether they will make it so well, or so durable, or so much, worth the money, as what is made in Europe, is a question I cannot answer, unless I made a trial and ascertained the fact. Is it within your knowledge that the East-India Company have taken great pains to extend to the utmost the consumption of European articles among the natives, and throughout India ? — As far as offering all the articles that they brought to India foj sale, both at public auction and at their open storehouses daily, at as low prices as could be expected, or perhaps could be found any where in India, they have endeavoured to supply the market with European articles, and their servants who are in. !he immediate charge of them, I believe, derive a commission from the 3 P sale 474 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Cockburn, sale of such articles ; at least I recollect being a member of a committee, Esq. which recommended that that practice should prevail, for the purpose of v ' inducing greater exertion in the persons in charge of the goods, by giving them an interest in the sale. Has not the Company frequently exported or sold at a known loss, for the purpose of increasing such export or sales of European articles ? — I have known goods sold much below the invoice price, that is all that I know on that subject. Are you now acting as a commissioner for investigating the Garnatic- debts ? — I am. [Examined by the Committee.) Are you of opinion that separating the commercial transactions of British India from those hands in whom the civil government may be lodged, would be consistent with the interests of the British empire in India, and of course in Europe ? — The magnitude and importance of that question would require a consideration which I have not bten able to give k, so as to answer it with satisfaction to myself ; but if my opinion is asked, whether an entire separation of the Company's mercantile and political character would be a means of adding to our security in India, or adding to the advantages that are to be derived by this country from Irdia, I should say, that I do not think the separation of the mercantile and political character of the Company is compatible with the >uccessful go- vernment, or I might say, the maintenance of the English government in India : When I say the commercial character ot the Company, I am not aware of the evils that arise from their commercial character, under ;he regulations and laws that now exist in India ; but I am of opinion that a. regulated trade that sh 11 have that species of freedom, that a man shall be able to sail his ship at his own times and convenience, would be, in addition to the trade of the Company, a great advantage to India. I shou.'d suppose that the regulations which were established foi that purpose, under the government of the Marquis Welles'ey, prove 1 that the trade was ex- tended, and that individual advantage kept pace with that ot the Companv. I thiqk it will always be desirable that every ship that carries bullion, of whatever nation she may be, should have an opportunity of purchasing the produce of the country, because India possessing no mines, or at leas* producing very little either of gold or silver, must depend upon fort ign commerce to feed the circulation .; and if the specie ot that country is io * be fcAST-IXDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 475 be exported to Europe, without such imports to feed it, the consequences Thos. Cocki urn, nms' he fatal to the circulating medium of India. When I was at Madras, Esq. that subject was very often under the consideration of the government and * -v * •its offie* r-, and I le.nember it was my individual opinion, that a remission of duties to a certain extent on all exports should be allowed to the extent of bullion bona fide imported on such ships; and that arose from a pressure which the pub ic service and individuals experienced from a very great want ot specie, without the possibility of extending, to any considerable degree, a paper currency. Are there not tradesmen of all descriptions, such as coach makers, cabinet-makers, upholsterers, workers in metals, persons casting or making glass bottles, preparers of tanned leather, persons making accou- trements, harness, and all the articles for which tanned leather is wanted, shoemakers and taylors, who are native labourers under British artificers ? — I believe all those descriptions ot persons are to be found in India ; some who work under European superintendence, and others who work for themselves : when I was in India, all the furniture I had occasion to use was made by natives. What proportion of price do those articles manufactured under British artificers, by native labourers, bear to the same articles imported from Europe ?— I really have no recollection, at this distance of time, of the particular prices of the articles of that description ; the price of the European articles varied very much at different times. When I went to India I bought six pair of shoes and a pair of slippers for a pagoda, they were manufactured by a native not superintended by an European ; and before I left it, the price was three pair of shoes, without the siippers, for a pagoda ; but I preferred European shoes, because, from the imperfec- tion of the tanning of the Indian shoe, I found my feet were liable to be injured by them : since that period, I understand, tanneries have been established, and better leather produced. Is it not your opinion that the native shoes that could be purchased at a much less expense, would be at least equally, if not under the expense that a British pair of shoes would cost ? — It would depend entirely upon the weather in which they were used ; if it was rainy, they would be very soon destroyed ; if the weather was dry, they would wear much longer, and probably as long as one pair of European shoes, if not rather longer. 3 P 2 Excepting 476 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Tlios.Cockbam, Excepting in the season of the monsoons ?— Including all seasons, Esq. when the weather was wet. There are seven or eight months in the year, when there is no rain ? — The quantity of water falling there maybe estimated at from 45 to 70 and 80 inches altogether within the year, according to situation and severity of the monsoon ; and I believe I might say that sometimes a half or two- thirds of that falls within three months, or thereabouts : it is unfortunate when there is eight months of drought ; I have known upwards of thirty inches fall within one month. Speaking respecting copper and tin, you mentioned that the copper mines of Hindostan had produced hitherto but little ? — Scarcely any thing lately ; they have formerly been worked, and the veins of them that were opened produced excellent copper ; but they have not been tried to any extent : probably they may produce excellent copper. Cannot copper and tin be brought to the coast of Bengal from the islands in the Indian Archipelago, easier and cheaper by commercial people resident at the British ports, than by being imported from England? — I am not acquainted with the trade in that quarter; I believe I could state the price of tin at Madras ; I have a price current in my pocket. The price of tin from the Eastern Islands and the Malay coast, was in the year 1801 or 1802, 35 star pagodas per candy of 500lbs. weight English : no copper appears to have been imported from that quarter, nor am I aware that any copper is to be found but in Japan ; at least, none was known to me to be imported at Madras when I was there, and I never knew that description of copper imported but in the Company's ships, and sometimes from Batavia. Do you know whether there is not copper that may be brought from the Persian Gulf from Mesopotamia, at a much smaller expense of freight and an easier expense in the prime cost? — I am not at all ac- quainted with that. Having stated, that you think the frequent punishment of Europeans for offences committed against the natives of India would not have the effect of lowering the character of the British government in that country, are you not of opinion that such punishment would rather tend to exalt than degrade the British character in India, by impressing more forcibly upon the minds of the natives the impartiality and efficacy of our laws, and thereby removing any doubts which may at present be entertained upon EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 477 upon that head ? — However it might induce the natives of Lidia to admire J'lios.Cockbur;/, our justice, the question implies a frequent recurrence of the evil ; Esq. and it would therefore follow, that the grievance must be frequent, and ' v~~"~^ that however much they might admire the conduct of the British govern- ment in punishing the offence, it would very much indispose them to the individual British subjects. Having stated, that you consider all the western coast of the peninsula of India as far as Goa to be subject to the British government, do you mean to include that part of the coast which belongs to the Rajah of Travancore ? — I mean to include that, inasmuch as a British resident resides there, and it was found indispensably necessary for the security of India, that the greatest vigilance should be exerted there to prevent the ingress of Europeans, particularly foreign Europeans and Frenchmen ; and therefore the rajah consented that the English government should have a check and controul over the ingress of Europeans into Travancore, in like manner as in their own countries, though there may, perhaps, be ports where they have no efficient controul or establishment, which I am not acquainted with. Do you consider the Peishwah to have more authority in his country than the Rajah of Travancore has in his dominions ? — I think the Peishwah must have more authority in his country than the Rajah of Travancore has in his dominions ; because, from the rebellion which took place in Tra- vancore against the authority of the Company's government, greater re- strictions have I suppose been imposed upon him. "Was the rebellion alluded to by you considered as on the part of the Rajah of Travancore, or of his subjects ? — When I say the rebellion, it was a rebellion against the authority of the Company, 1 believe, instigated by the Dewan ; I was not in lnaia at that time, and therefore cannot speak from my own knowledge : as to the regulations to which I refer, I believe I am correct. Is the Committee to understand, that you consider the authority of the Rajah of Travancore in his, own country as merely nominal ? — I consider the authority of the Rajah of Travancore in his own country to be not nominal, as it relates to the internal government of his own country, but under rules and regulations, as it would affect the English government ; possibly since I lett India, rules and regulations may have been imposed, which may give him not so much latitude in his country as he had formerly. How "Y" 478 MINUTES OF EV'DENCE ON THE T on r nrL'ourn, How did the English government acquire the authority to which yoa V - allude, and against which you state a rebellion has taken place; was it ' by conquest, or otherwise .? —I should suppose that the authority they have acquired there, was in consequence of a treaty with the Rajah, which took place in consequence of the disturbances that produced that rebellion to which I have alluded. Have you heard of the contract for pepper, made between the Com- pany and the Rajah of Travancore about the year 1795? — Travancore was not under the Madras government in 1795, as far as I recollect; and I had no opportunity of being acquainted with any contracts made by the Bombay government. Are you of opinion that there would be the same inducement now as twenty years ago, for Europeans to seek employment in the service of the native powers in India, considering the political changes which have taken place, and the treaties concluded by the British government with the native powers to prevent Europeans being entertained by them ?— Certainly not; nor could there be the same facilities : when the power of Hyder surrounded our territories, and possessed a large portion of the Malabar coast, and when Cuttack was in possession o 1, the Matnattas, there certainly must have been greater facility in European deserters, or any other Europeans who wished to enter those countries, reaching them: I have already explained the difficulties that now exist, as far as I am able. Are you of opinion that any serious danger would arise to the British interests in India, from the possible admission of a few Europeans into the service of such of the native powers as can be at all considered inde- pendent of the British government, and with which no treaties exist ?— - Even a few Europeans getting into the service of any of those chieftains, whose ambition might lead them to a desire of extending their dominions, might aid and assist them in gaining a superiority over their neighbours; but 1 do not think that the British government have any thing to appre- hend from any combination of that description, except creating distur- bances, which would certainly create expense, and induce the loss of lives. Did not the Mahr3tta armies prove more formidable to the British power in India, under their own irregular mode of discipline, than since the introduction of the European system under European officers ? — I think, when opposed to Europeans, they did ; and that it was a very happy circumstance for the English that Tippoo did not follow his fa- ther's EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 479 ther's advice, which was, never to organize infantry with the hope of Tkos.Cockburit, competing with the English troops ; owing to that circumstance, and his Esq. having diminished the establishment of his irregular cavalry, he certainly v - ■■ v - 1 * lost a great deal of [hat advantage which he otherwise must have pos- sessed in his opposition to the English arms. Is it not believed that Scindiah suffered from the same cause ? — I have no doubt he did ; but tiie force Scindiah had organized was of such a nature, that il it had not been opposed by military exertions and com- binations that, I believe, never were surpassed in any part of the world, we should have had little chance or overcoming it ; hk army was arriving at a degree of perfection, that, if considerably augmented, it would have been found very difficult to put down, and that certainly, in a great measure, from the employment of Europeans : it was perhaps partly to the imperfect state to which it had arrived under European disci- pline, and the want ot a sufficient number of Europeans, that we were indebted lor our extraurdinary success. Did not the Bhnrtp< re Rajah make a more successful resistance to the B itish arms, without the aid of Furopjan officers and tactics, than those na ive powers dia, which had both? — The Rajah of Bhurtpore fought within a very str .ng fortress, which was considered almost impregnable, he had a verv large gasristan ; the English had nor, unfortunately, the means which they ought always, if possible, to possess, I mean mortars and shells, which would hn e prevented the dreadful losses that occurred on that occasion It is perfectly well known, that Indians undisciplined, when behind walls reake a most vigoiaus defence, and have often been known to urive ©fl European tro .ps in attempting to assault: ultimately^ of course, they could nut prevail. "What effect, prejudicial or otherwise, do you conceive would be pro- duced in I. ilia bv the large importations of specie lately made by the Company, from that country, under the denomination of surplus revenue? ■ — I he eflect of sending specie trom India to any great extent, without giving the oppm'.unitv of an ingress of speck to that country, would be most distressing, as I have already explained. I am not aware of any specie imported under the denomination of surplus revenue. Have you heard that, notwithstanding this surplus revenue, the Com- pany have lately opened new loans at the different presidencies in India? —I have in the newspapers seen something about it. Do 4 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Titos. Cock-burn, Do you speak of Indian newspapers'? — Yes ; I have seen an advertise* Esq. ment for a new 6 per cent, loan, in, I think, the Madras paper ; I can- h. — ^ J not exactly state the date. What, in your opinion, has been the impression made upon the minds of the Company's creditors, natives as well as Europeans, by the late financial operations of the governments in India, particularly in the various transfers or nominal pavments of their public loans, from the years I807-180S to IS 10 lb 11?— I can speak to the effect that was pro- duced upon the minds of many of the creditors in this country, and may infer what w/auld be the opinion of the people of India, in regard to one loan which I myself had an opportunity of knowing the particulars ot : there was a loan opened for the purpose of inducing a subscription ot 10 per cent, paper, possessing the option of being paid the principal and interest in England, into a loan of 8 percent, paper, payable the prin- cipal in India and the interest in England; and money was also received by government at a premium, when money was offered: the loan held oat to creditors, that interest wouli be paid by bills on England half yearly, trom year to year, at a favourable exchange of &s. 6d. per pagoda, and three months' sight ; I believe the loan was to be made up, and the cer- tificates or notes to be dated on the 31st of May 1809, and the interest of 8 per cent, to run from that period : in the month of September or Oc- tober lcGQ, this loan, which the persons who had the 10 per cent, paper were induced to go into, and to accept 8 per cent, on account of the fa- vourable remittance to Europe, which, from the expression that the interest was to be paid half yearly from year to year, was considered a loan of some duration, was advertised to be paid off; and the loan was paid off, within six months from its completion. It appeared therefore that these favourable terms were held out by the government of Madras for the purpose of inducing individuals to subscribe their paper payable in England, for paper payable in India but the interest in England; and that the moment the confiding publ c had subscribed their paper, and given up the great advantage of payment in England, the induce- ment was withdrawn, and the loan paid off, and the parties, many of them, compelled to subscribe to less favourable loans, locking up their property in India. Of course, this, which was considered by individuals as a breach of contract, I mean so tar as they could not but suppose that the terms of the advertisement gave them reason to believe that the loan would be of some duration, must, as it would naturally affect individual credit, have had the same effect upon public credit. I believe that the Court of Directors, upon representations having been made to them, have in some instances given inadequate re- lief, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. +81 lief, in so far as they have agreed to permit those persons who held paper Thos. Cockburu, at 6 percent., to receive bills upon England for it when they shall adver- Esq. tise it for payment in India. I am not perhaps perfectly correct in the * -y md details of tnis, for I have not thousrht of it for a length of time. I had some paper myself in this situation. The e fleet upon my mind was, that it was a very different proceeding from what had been observed in this country, when the government thought it a duty to bring forward a resolution for a reduction of the interest in 1749 (vide Smollett, vol. 3, page 279). The circumstances that may have occasioned this financial measure, I am not acquainted with ; I speak only of its effects upon my own mind. Upon the representation from some of the creditors in India to the government at Madras, they saw the justice of repaying the pre- mium which had been paid to it by individuals to get into the loan ; otherwise a considerable part of the interest that had accrued would have been paid by the premium given by the lender. Are you aware of the Company's having opened loans in India, them- selves paying the premium for the cash ? — When the Company's interest is at six per cent, and money is wanted and bears a higher interest in the market, they no doubt, with a view to keep the interest at the rate of six per cent, would act very wisely in giving a premium to induce such loan, rather than increase the rate of interest which would have a permanent effect. Have not you heard of the Company giving a premium, allowing at the same time eight per cent? — When the interest of money was at eight per cent, and money even at that rate could not be got, the same prin- ciple would naturally induce them to give a premium, as is done in this country on all occasions of loans, according to the state of the money market. Have you heard of the Company giving this premium, and an interest of eight per cent, at the time that private merchants were only allowing six per cent.? — Not to my knowledge or recollection. Have not you heard, that the money collected in the Company's treasuries in India, for the purpose of effecting the reduction of interest, in the manner of which you have just given an instance, was borrowed ■ upon those terms, the greatest part of it ? — I am not acquainted with that fact, it was subsequent to my leaving India; but, if the object of the Company's government had been to reduce the interest on their great debt, it was certainly their duty, as it was their interest, to borrow 3 Q money *83 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Titos. Coc/ibur/t, money on those terms, if by that means the reduction of interest could Esq. he effected. I do not complain of the reduction of interest in India, I ^-" — y ' think it was essentially necessary to the interests of the public that it should be so ; I only complain of the manner in which it was done, and the discredit which it brought upon English credit, which, I believe, stood higher than any other credit in the world. Are you aware, that although they thus effected a reduction of interest, they actually had not tiie means of paying off their debt ; and that although they paid off nominally upwards of thirty millions sterling, they had not in their treasuries at any time more than five or six millions during that period ? — If with so small a comparative sum at their com- mand, which must have been known to the monied interest in India, they were enabled to effect a measure so salutary to the public interests, if it could be done without injury to their credit, and without any breach of engagement, I think that the government of India would derive credit from having been able to accomplish so great an object with such small means. Have the goodness to state, explicitly, whether the conduct of the government in India towards their creditors, was not general ly considered as a gross breach of public faith and engagement ? — In regard to an explicit statement of my opinion, I do certainly think, that the manner of doing it was inconsistent with the dignity of the British government, and ultimately will prove injurious to their interests ; as every measure will do which is not founded upon just principles and fair and open dealing. It having been stated, that iron was produced in India, did you see ©r hear of any Indian iron exposed for sale in the market ? — Never having dealt in any articles of that kind, I really never had an oppor- tunity of seeing it in the market, or endeavouring to buy it ; but 1 have heard of its being to be bought, and it must be so, because the steel which is made from it, is produced in the Mysore country to a consider- able extent. Is not the iron manufactured in India inferior in quality to that imported from England? — It is certainly as inferior to that imported from England at present, as English iron was formerly to Swedish, when almost all the iron sent to India by the Company was Swedish ; now, happily for this country, English iron is manufactured, not only equal in quality, but in some respects better than Swedish, and yet may be EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 483 be bought, I believe, many pounds per ton cheaper, and is now, I believe, T/ios Cockbum, the only iron exported by the Company to India. Esq. Can you form any opinion of the probable proportion Mussuhncn bear to the Hindoos in point of number, in that part of the country with which you have been acquainted ? — That question it is impossible to answer without a census being taken ; where I have had an opportunity of seeing it taken, in the Mysore country, where I should have expected more Mussulmen than in the Carnatic, I think the proportion was thirty-eight Hindoos to one Mussulman ; but that varies precisely in proportion to the power and number of the Mussulmen governments that existed in different parts of India. Do you consider those Mussulmen who have been put down from offices of power and emolument, equally contented with the British sovereignty as the Hindoos ? — Certainly not, it is impossible to suppose that men' who enjoyed unlimited power, office and emolument, can be equally satisfied with the Hindoos, who more generally derive greater advantages from office and emolument under the English government, though both enjoy as complete protection as it is possible for men to enjoy where laws have not been long established, but which time and experience will, no doubt, improve into greater perfection. Could discontents to any extent amongst the Mussulmen produce danger !o the British sovereignty, as long as the Hindoos are satisfied with the British government? — 1 have already explained, that I do not think tnere is any bond of union that could be established among them, to induce such an event as is referred to in the question, unless under the circumstances which I have before stated. If the Mussulmen could induce the Hindoos to concur with them, would the British power be safe ? — If the Mussulmen could induce the Hindoo population to rise in rebellion against the English government, it is impossible to suppose that it would not be a very difficult thing for the few Europeans that now hold the power in India long to exist ; the extension of the British power in India, though it could not have been gained without the aid of a great European force, was yet attained principally by the aid of our native subjects. During the war of Hyder in the ytar 178O, I knew of instances of attachment in the native troops which it is impossible for me not to mention ; Hyder entered the country with an artny of 100,000 men ; the army which we had in the field under Sir Eyre Coote, amounted to not more than 8,000 muskets, of 3 Q 2 which V" 484 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Cockbum, which not 1,000 were Europeans ; all the garrisons in the country of our Esq. own were occupied by a few European officers with native troops; Hyder ' * ; offered very high terms to induce them to secede from their duty ; they were frequently from 4 to 14 months in arrears of pay; they were in some instances reduced to the necessity of disposing of their children to obtain the means of their own subsistence, and also with a view to secure the lives of their children by sending them to those who had the means of feeding them ; at this period there were emissaries sent among them for the purpose of inducing them to swerve from their duty ; it was at this period thev fought the battle of Porto Novo in 17 ; "*1> which without their aid could never have been fought ; such attachment to the government whose salt they eat, which is their common expression, shews, that if they are protected in their religion, their privileges, and their family rights, and that so long as they are so protected, we have nothing to apprehend from any combinations to overset our government. I believe they have no attachment to any form of political power. Do you imagine, from any occurrences in the Decan, that there might be any motive that could produce an union between the Mussul- ineii and Hindoos? — That is a question I cannot answer more fully than I have already, in effect. You derive no consequences from what happened at Vellore? — I would rather not enter into that question; but I am ready to do it, if it be the wish of the Committee. [The Witness withdrew. [Adjourned to To-morrow, eleven o'clock. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S' AFFAIRS. 485 Jovis, 29° die Jprilis 1813. The Hight Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. CHARLES BULLER, Esq. a Member of the House, was examined as follows : Mr. lmpey.~\ HOW long have you been in the civil service of the Charles Butler, East India Company ? — About two and twenty years: I was one and Esq. twenty years actually resident in India. ' "v ' You were at the Bengal presidency ? — I was. In what department ? — In the revenue. You are still in the service of the East India Company ? — I am. Did you reside in India during twenty-one years? — One and twenty ■yea;s, or within a month or two. From your long residence in that country, had you opportunities of remarking upon the characters, the habits, andprejudices of the natives ? — Certainly, I had an opportunity. Are you of opinion that they are a people peculiarly tenacious of their habits and prejudices ? — They certainly are, very particularly so, as far as I can judge. In the event of a free trade between this country and India, and many Englishmen being permitted to penetrate into the interior, is it your opi- nion that such permission would be attended with any, and what ill effects, to the peace and happiness of the natives ? — I should conceive it to be dangerous; that it would be the cause of much oppression and persecution to the natives , and that it would be prejudicial to the British name, and consequently to the British interests, Though 456 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Charles Butler, Though Europeans are not allowed to purchase land, are they not al- Esq. lowed in Bengal to hold land by leases to the extent of about fifiy begahs ? v — v ' — They are , and the same person is allowed to hold several detached spots of fifty begahs each. Can you state what is about the average rate of those begahs — what is the extent of land they contain ? — { cannot say exactly, but I understand there are three begahs to an acre. Have the goodness to state whether those leases are not granted by zemndars? — They are granted by the zemindars ; the lease is obtained first by the settler, and he sends it to the collector, who sends it to the Board of Revenue, for the sanction of government, for his holding his lands. As a member of the Board of Revenue, I have been in the habit every Board-day of sending up two or three of those applications. In consequence of this permission, have not Europeans the means of building habitations and manufactories, and holding them, up in the coun- try as permanent property ? — -It is for the express purpose of enabling them to do that, that they are aliowed, I believe. Are there not actually many Europeans settled up the country in Ben- gal, upon property of this description, such as indigo manufacturers and others? — A considerable number; I before stared two or three, but I would wish to say, that we were in the habit of sending up every Board- day at least one application for holding land to that extent. Under the zemindars, by permission of the government? — Yes, from the grant of the zemindars. Have you actually known such licensed Europeans so far misconduct themselves, as to make it necessary for the government to send them out of the country ? — I have had to conduct inquiries sometimes into the conduct of those gentlemen, and I think it occurred to me in two in- stances, within the short space of two months, to recommend, that two gentlemen should be sent out of the district in which they had been allowed to reside. Those came accidentally under my official knowledge ; l,had nothing to do with the general superintendence of the conduct of those gentlemen, nor with the police of the country ; but when any question arose, whether an European held lands directly or indirectly, such questions were referred to the Board of revenue for report; and in the two EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS 487 two instances I have alluded to, the evidence of their oppression of the Charles Buller, ryots was so very strong, that though I do not know it actually came Esq. within the scope of our duty to recommend their removal, yet we dtd as < v —t much, which was, to suggest to the government, whether they were fit persons to be allowed to reside in the districts. Were they removed in consequence of that recommendation ? — T was given to understand that they were removed ; the order for their removal was not sent to the Board of Revenue, but through another channel ; but I am pretty certain they were removed. In the event of a free trade, if many persons, even with licences, were permitted to go into the interior of the country, do you not think the evil which has already arisen from the misconduct of licenced persons in Ben- gal, would be probably very much increased ? — Certainly, I do ; I am very apprehensive of a number of Europeans settling in the interior; 1 have heard a great deal of oppressions committed by them, and I feel ra- ther strongly on that subject against the measure ; a number of Euro- peans in the country would considerably tend to increase the evil, because I think those oppressions were generally occasioned by the quarrels of those Europeans amongst themselves, and indeed they generally came to light from the quarrels of the Europeans ; the natives were not much in the habit, at least to my knowledge, of bringing complaints against Eu- ropeans ; they were afraid ; I only speak from my knowledge as a member of the Board of Revenue. Are you then of opinion, from your knowledge of the character of the natives, that they are likely to sustain considerable injury rather than complain against Englishmen ? — In the cases that I have known, as I have said before, the complaints were generally made known in consequence of some quarrel between Europeans; I therefore suppose that the natives were not in the habit of complaining : Upon light occasions, certainly not : but a magistrate can speak much better to that than I can ; I have never been a magistrate. o Are you of opinion, that if oppressions of the nature above stated, took place in many instances, they might create such a discontent among the native population, as would be dangerous to the stability of our govern- ment in India? — If in many instances they took place, I should think that danger might ensue ; but it would be a considerable number of instances before there was any actual danger to our Empire. 488 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Charles Bulkr, Do you think that the power which is now vested in the local govern- Esq. ment of India, of sending Europeans out of the country in case of misbe- 1 "v ' haviour, is necessary to maintain the peace of the country and the security of the government ? — Most essential. Where any violences or oppressions of natives by Englishmen take place in India, up the country, have the natives any adequate means of obtaining justice against their oppressors, except by that power which the government possess of removal of their oppressors out of the country ? — They may appeal to the magistrate of the district, who may send the offenders to the supreme court. If such oppressions are committed at the distance of hundreds, or even a thousand miles up the country, do you think the natives can have any adequate justice by appealing to the supreme court ? — They would, in all probability, not have the means of appealing ; they would not be able to leave their own concems for such a length of time. Has it not fallen within your knowledge that, from such defect of jus- tice, the murders of the parties offending have ensued ? — I have certainly known, or rather heard, of one instance, where murder ws actually com- mitted ; the gentleman was actually murdered : I have also heard of another instance ; it was a lady, who was very nearly murdered ; she was not abso- lutely murdered. Can you state at all the nature of the oppressions, which have come to your knowledge, of the native Indians by Europeans ? — What I recollect, were flogging of the ryots, and imprisonment. Supposing an unlimited influx of British subjects were allowed into the three presidencies, but under an absolute restriction from penetrating into the interior, is it your opinion that such restriction would prove effectual to prevent persons getting into the interior? — If I were to answer that theoretically, I should say, that I should suppose government could easily prevent it. But judging from what I have constantly seen, I do think it would be very difficult indeed to prevent it. The prohibitions against Europeans entering into the interior are at present very strong, but some- how or other they do contrive to get into the interior, and actually do settle there. In short, I conceive that it much more depends upon the indi- vidual character of the magistrate than upon any general laws which government can lay down. An active magistrate will certainly prevent Europeans from entering into the interior, and also will keep them from doing EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 489 doing any gross acts of injustice while they are there ; but in our service, Charles Butter, as in other parts of the world, there are persons sometimes appointed to Esq. offices who are not competent to them; and in such cases, the Eu- l y ' ropeans often do commit great mischief. Is not the power vested in the local governments of removing such Englishmen as misbehave themselves, considered as a very invidious power in its exercise, and never resorted to but in extreme cases ? — I fancy very much so : the exercise of it creates great clamour against the go« vernment. In your opinion, would a free trade with India produce any materially increased demand among the natives for European commodities? — I should rather think not; as far as I can judge of the natives their wants are very few, and those very easily satisfied, and where that is the case, with regard to the natural wants, I think they very seldom have many artificial wants. Have the mass of the population in the Bengal provinces, either the desire or the means of purchasing British commodities ? — I do not know what their desire may be ; they certainly have not the means ; and I should not suppose they have much the desire, because they are content, as I have before said, with gratifying those few natural wants that they have. According to your observation, do you think that the more opulent natives in the Bengal provinces have any great wish or taste for such articles, meaning European articles ? — I think very little ; as far as I have seen, they have a few articles of glass ware, lustres, and those things; but I recollect, in the case of one very opulent man that they were very trumpery kind of articles, and I should doubt very much their having been bought actually at a shop ; I should rather think that they were bought at the auction of an English gentleman. Do the native domestics of Europeans adopt, in any degree, European habits ? — None that 1 recollect. Does the supply of European articles in India, according to the present system of trade, appear to you to be fully equal to the demand of the natives? — Certainly, I should suppose so, I have generally seen the bazars full of those articles which the natives ever use. 3 R Do ■v— 490 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Charles Bailer ^° y ou think that the present system is fully adequate to the supply of Esq. an y probably increased demand on the part of the natives of India for r European articles ? — I should suppose so, for I have no reason to believe that there will be an increased demand. (Examined hy the Committee.') Can you form an opinion what the effect of separating the commercial transactions of British India from those hands, whoever they may be, in which the future government of the country may be lodged, would be, whether consistent with the interests of the British empire in India and in Europe ? — That is a very general question ; I conceive that it would be presumption in me to answer that by a plain yes or no, when so many intelligent persons differ upon the question ; of course, every one who has Jieard the Indian question discussed, must have formed some opinion upon it ; and all I can say upon that is, that I am against the separation. Do you think that, practically, merely a power in the government of India to remove individuals who may go there under a parliamentary enactment, would be sufficient without a positive direction in the act of parliament, that any transgression or evasion of an order from government by any European, should ipso facto be followed by being sent out of the country, subject to the remission of that penalty by the government of India ? — I think, that any thing which would tend to take away the odium to which government is subjected from the exercise of that very necessary power would be highly desirable. Are there not tradesmen at Calcutta of all descriptions, such as coach- makers, cabinet-makers, upholsterers, workers in metals, persons employed in casting or making glass bottles, tanning leather, making accoutrements, harness, and all articles for which tanned leather is wanted, shoemakers and taylors ? — I believe, generally, there are all those that have been described. Is not the consequence of that, that those articles are furnished through the native labourers under British artificers in a state fit for use, and at a much inferior price to what they can be imported from Europe ? — Certainly. Has not the consequence of this been to have already lessened exceed- ingly the importation of those articles that formerly obtained vend at Calcutta ? — In most instances, I conceive, if not in all. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 491 Do you conceive it probable, from the accounts that have been given of C/.arlcs Duller, the aptness of the natives, and their ingenuity in learning all mechanical Esq. arts, that the progress of that must be their improvement in the making of ' v ' every thing of which the materials are found in India, and of course that in time, the import to India of British articles may most materially de- cline ?— I should think that they might materially decline ; but 1 do not conceive they will ever arrive at that great state or perfection in which many manufactures are carried on in England ; I particularly apply that to European gentlemen who are nice about their carriages, and other articles which may be supplied in India, but which they would still prefer having from England. Applying it to the articles more commonly in use there, such as those made by shoemakers, tailors, workers in iron and in steel, and in the tanning leather accoutrements, and harness of all kinds? — I should con- ceive they would considerably decline. Does it come in your way to know, whether copper and tin may not be and are not brought to Calcutta from the islands in the Indian Archi- pelago, easier and cheaper by the commercial people residing at the set- tlement, than they can be imported from England ? — I have no other means of knowledge than what every gentleman has here from reading on the subject. How many Europeans do you suppose are now resident in the interior of Bengal, not in the Company's service ? — Upon my word, I do not know. Can you form a guess ? — I really cannot. One, two, or three hundred, or four hundred ? — I have no means of knowing what there are in the ceded and conquered districts. Is there not a very large proportion of those foreigners ? — Not that I know ot ; there are several foreigners I have understood employed by- English gentlemen, particularly in the vicinity of Chandernagore and Chinsura, and the foreign settlements ; but I believe they are not residents. Are there not many of the indigo planters, Frenchmen ? — I should rather suppose not, as far as my opinion goes; but I have not resided much in the interior. . 3 R 2 As 492 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Chaiks Butter, As you were in the revenue department, and therefore must be ac- Esq. quainted with the collection and payment of the revenues ; in the event of the Company's commercial transactions being abridged, or of their investments being diminished by the interference of open traders, would, in your opinion, the -revenues be equally productive as under the existing system?— I should not suppose the revenues would be much affected by it. Would they not be lessened in proportion as the open traders interfered with the Company's investments? — The only mode in which I can con- ceive it would affect the revenue would be, by throwing out of employ- ment several people who do pay revenue to government on account of their lands ; if that way it would probably affect the revenue, but I should not suppose to any great extent. If that interference had the effect of lessening the Company's invest- ment, would it not in all probability occasion an increase in the invest- ments of private traders, and thereby give full employment to all the persons that would otherwise have been working for the Company ? — If the private traders could carry on their concerns with effect, of course it would. JOHN STRACEY, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows: John S'fracey, Mr. Grant, ,] How long, and in what capacities, have you served the Esq. East India Company ? — Between fourteen and fifteen years, in different departments ; some time in the judicial department, and the rest as under- secretary to government. On what establishment ?— The Bengal establishment. State in what parts of the country you principally resided ? — I was m the district of Tirhoot, in the province of Behar ; and at Momensing, in the district of Dacca j and at Cawnpoor, in the ceded provinces. From your experience, can you state, whether, under the system of the Company, the great mass of the natives of India live in a state of comfort and contentment ? — I certainly think they do, in every respect. With reference to the climate in which they live, are they comfortably lodged, fed, and clothed ? — Speaking of them as a people in general, and according: EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 4D3 according to their habits and customs, I consider the natives to be as well, John Siracey, as happy, and as contented as any set of people in the world. Esq. i v —> Were the trade to India laid open, and British subjects permitted fre.-ly, or at least in greatly increased numbers, to pervade the interior oi the country, would such an event, in your apprehension, tend to disturb the comfort and contentedness which you have described, or the reverse ? — From the different instances I have known, I am certainly ot opinion, that great disturbances would be excited amongst the natives by the Euro- peans, who would, in all probability, be guilty of the greatest excesses. Is that opinion founded upon any specific experience ? — Several dif- ferent instances have occurred, both with Europeans out of the Company's service, and those in the Company's service, and also in the King's service. Mention what species of oppressions those are to which you particularly refer: — While in Tirhoot, I think there were two gentlemen, at different times, tried in Calcutta for maltreating the natives ; one of them endea- vouring to extort confession, on the idea of having been plundered ; ano- ther on the charge of disfiguring some women ; both of whom, I believe, were tried and convicted in the supreme court of the offences charged against them. What do you mean by disfiguring ? — It is a number of years back ; but the disfiguring I believe was, taking off the end of their nose to disfigure them. Did it happen in procuring from the nose the ornaments they usually wear there ? — No, cutting off the tip of the nose ; thi3 gentleman was con- nected with a native female, who, through jealousy, mutilated the women as I have described, to which he was conceived to be an accessary, and was tried for that offence, and was convicted, I believe, in Calcutta : I recollect an instance while I was sub-secretary, wherein a number of Lascars, denominated I believe Batta Lascars in Calcutta, the people whose profession it is to navigate vessels in the river, and to load and un- load ships ; many of those were employed in a ship in the river, the captain of which being short of hands, suddenly set sail and carried them away for Europe; the government, upon receiving information of this, took up a ship for the express purpose, and dispatched it with warm clothing to the Cape of Good Hope, to bring these people back, with the captain, 494 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Stracey, captain also, but whether it was successful or not, I do not know. There were several instances of misconduct aho of Europeans, while I was ma- gistrate of the district of Cawnpore. Some of the European soldiers were guilty of breaking into a house of an European trader, which house was defended by some native watchmen, in which one of the soldiers was killed, and the natives wounded ; some of the former I apprehended and sent to Calcutta for trial, but they were immediately acquitted, in conse- quence of the proprietor of the house not thinking proper to prosecute in Calcutta, the distance being so great. Were British subjects, in greatly increased numbers, to visit, or to per- vade, the interior of the country, is it your opinion that such injuries as those which you have described, or other parallel atrocities, might be ma- terially multiplied? — I certainly consider that great excesses would result; Europeans look upon the natives with a certain degree of contempt ; they are often totally ignorant of their manners and habits; and some through ignorance, and some through intention, would be guilty of very great excesses. You have stated, that in one of the instances referred to, the prosecu- tion was dropped on the part of the oppressed party, by reason of the dis- tance of the supreme court of judicature ; is it youropimon that a frequent resort, on the part of the natives of the interior, to the supreme courts of judicature, would be morally practicable ? — I believe not ; in all cases, however, in which a native complains against an European for any act of felony, or violent oppression, by the present regulations, the expences of the natives, both plaintiff and witnesses, are always paid by the govern- ment, in order to enable them to proceed to Calcutta and return. On the supposition that the offences in question became extremely fre- quent, would it be possible, in your opinion, co-equally to extend that in- dulgence, through which the suffering parties are enabled to resort to jus- tice at Calcutta ? — That must depend, I should suppose, entirely upon the number of cases that would occur, and, consequently, upon the number of Europeans that might be allowed to reside in the interior of the country ; if these occurrences were very frequent, the expense to government would be extreme ; but I should suppose they would always allow it, as it is theii present practice. In spite of this indulgence, might not the natives in the interior suffer immense inconvenience from ;he necessity of making a long journey, be- fore they could iiud the justice required? — Their being taken away irorn their EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 4Q5 their houses and families and occupations, is a very great grievance; and John Stracev, in many instances they go into a climate and country, of which they are Esq. totally ignorant. ' v ' Do you mean to imply, that the distance of the seat of justice would be a most serious inconvenience, even were that justice free ?— The distance is the greatest inconvenience; for in many instances, I believe it may be extended as far as ten or twelve hundred miles. Would it be possible, without offence to the national prejudices of Englishmen, to invest the courts of the British magistrates with criminal jurisdiction over British subjects in general ? — I think, supposing the magistrate to have the power that he has at present of apprehending, that instead of sending them to Calcutta in all cases short of felony and murder, a remedy might be found for giving the natives redress, by giving the courts of appeal or courts of circuit the power of deciding. You are aware, that in the courts which you have just mentioned, the mode of trial by jury is not established ; are you of opinion that the trial by jury could be introduced into those courts ? — Most undoubtedly not ; I do not think it possible. In your judgment, would the frequent exercise of a coercive and des- potic authority over the persons of British subjects, on the part of the British government, or its public functionaries, in any manner affect the estimation in which the natives generally hold the British character and name ? — That is a matter so completely of opinion, that I really do not know exactly how to answer that question ; as an opinion of my own, I think it would ; but it is merely a matter of opinion. Is the opinion you have just stated founded upon that knowledge of the natives which you have acquired from your experience ? — My opinion is founded upon so very few cases of Europeans, that I can only judge from them ; the natives certainly would think an European degraded, by being frequently brought into the court ; for the higher sort of natives think themselves extremely degraded by being so brought into a court of justice ; and they would attach that degree of degradation to the Europeans, I ap- prehend, that they do to themselves. In a former answer you mentioned an instance in which a grievous act of oppression was committed by a commander of a British vessel, on some Batta 4Q6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Stracey, Batta Lascars ; on the supposition that a free trade with India were es'a- Esq. blished, and the Indian coasts generally laid open to the resort of trading vessels from this country, are you of opinion that such acts of violence might frequently take place ? — The instance alluded to was perpetrated even almost under the eyes of the government ; if therefore Europeans were allowed to navigate, or to go to all ports on the different coasts of Coro- mandel or Malabar, similar acts I should think likely to occur ; and if they did occur, the redress given in that instance could not be given there, and the effect I should think, very prejudicial to the British name. Independently of the oppression common to all such acts of piracy, on whatever people committed, are they attended with any peculiar hard- ships when committed upon the people of India ? — It depends materially, I believe, upon the cast of natives on whom the grievance has been com- mitted ; with several casts of Hindoos, if the provisions are not laid in by their Brahmins, theywill not eat those provisions on board of ship, and consequently in a voyage from India to Europe or the Cape of Good Hope, the natives on board such ships must starve. Have you ever known any instances of unlicensed European adventurers wandering through the interior of the country ? — While at Cawnpore, I think I recollect one instance of a British subject having absconded from one of the Company's ships on the coast of Malabar across Hie Peninsula, coming into the district of Cawnpore, when the police officer immediately apprehended him and sent him to me ; and I, with the authority of government, sent him to Calcutta. There were some other instances : one of a Frenchman, who came up to Cawnpore as a trader ; he was also apprehended, and by the orders of government sent to Calcutta ; a third was an officer, who had been in the service of Scindiah, and wounded at the battle of Assaye ; he was, I believe, a half cast, but being in European dress he was apprehended by the police ; I sent him to Lord Lake, then with the army ; I am not perfectly sure whether he was detained by Lord Lake, or sent to Calcutta. You have stated, that you saw at Cawnpore an adventurer who had crossed from the Malabar coast ; can you state, roughly, what distance that person must have travelled ? — I should think about thirteen or four- teen hundred miles. Must he not have come through the Mahratta dominions ? — Yes, he must have come through the country possessed by Holkar and by Scindiah, aad a part of the territories of the Kanah of Gohud. In EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 4Q7 In your judgment may the natives of India he described as both an agri- John Straccy, cultural and a manufacturing people ? — Most undoubtedly. Esq. In both characters do they not work far more cheaply than the natives of this country, or of Europe in general ? — There is no comparison ; every thing is much cheaper, the articles of cloathing, and other articles, and their labour is much cheaper ; that varied of course in different parts in which I was situated ; I think in the Dacca province it did not amount to more than Ss. 6d. or 3s. 9d. per month ; in Behar to about 5s. ; and at Cavvnpore to about Is. 6d. Do you mean for agricultural or manufacturing labour ? — Merely la- bouring people ; men who come to do daily labour, as husbandmen work in this country, doing up gardens, or dressing lands, or any thing of that kind. The gains of the labouring classes in general being thus limited, have they the means of purchasing European commodities ? — 1 certainly should think not ; I do not see how it is possible. You have stated the gnins of the labouring classes in India as incom- parably smaller than those of the labouring classes in Europe; do you mean to imply that the comforts of the former are less in the same pro- portion ? — The native of India, I conceive, is as happy and contented ]n his situation as any of the lower orders of people are in this country. Are not the simplicity and frugality of the native habits agreeable to the nature of the climate under which they live ? — Yes. Is it your judgment then, that the cheapness of living and of labour in India proceeds from accidental and precarious causes, or is rooted in the climate, soil, produce, and inveterate usages of the country ? — I think it is from the permanent cause of climate and of soil. In your judgment, is it probable, that under any circumstances, the mass of the natives of India will draw a great portion of the commodities which they ordinarily use from this country r — I do not know that they use any thing in their ordinary use from Europe, except it is some few woollens or broad-cloths, which they may have accidentally got at a very cheap rate. 3 S Are "V 4Q8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Sruccy, Are they likely to use European commodities under any change of sys< Esq. tern which can be adopted ? — I should think not. Do you consider the Indian markets as at present fully stocked with European commodities ? — 1 had very little opportunity of observing that ; but from the frequent and continual sales of European articles in Calcutta by auction, the natives iad every opportunity of procuring the articles they wished, if they had the means of purchasing them. Do you intend to imply, that the sellers of those articles were reduced to the method of auction, from the impossibility of disposing of their com- modities in anv other manner ? — I have understood that to be the case, but cannot speak positively to it. Were those articles, in fact, to be had at very cheap rates ? —Sometimes I believe they were, and generally, I understood, not exceeding the Eu- ropean price. Can you state, whether the weavers and other persons concerned in the provision of the Company's investments, or in the manufactures of salt and opium, are not protected from oppression on rhe part of the commer- cial residents, by specific regulations and laws ? — There is a specific regu- lation for the guidance of the commercial residents how they are to provide the Company's investments ; if any native under those regulations thinks himself aggrieved by the commercial residents, gomastahs or agents, he may complain to the public courts of justice, v. hen the complaint is, a3 well as I recollect, referred in the first instance, to the resident to settle ; and if the party aggrieved is not satisfied, he again applies to the court, when his suit or cause is taken up in the same manner as against any other individuals. What are the public courts of justice alluded to in your answer? — Those that are established in the interior of the country, the zillah courts, and the city courts ; there is a court established in each city, and in each district ; that depends encirely upon where the aggression has been committed. Is it not the practice of the Bengal government to publish all its regulations in the country languages for general information? — They are all published in the different languages, the Persian, the Bengalee, and the Hindoostanee. Several copies of each regulation, in the diffe- rent languages, are seat to the judges and magistrates of the districts, And EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. *99 and the collectors, who are directed to distribute them to the vakeels or John Sffacc-f/, counsellors attendant upon the different courts, and other natives. Have you known instances in which redress has been granted, under the circumstances described, to persons aggiicved by commercial residents or other public functionaries ? — I do not recollect any specific case ; but those cases must be almost innumerable, 1 conceive, in the different courts. Is it known to you whether the regulations of the Indian governments nre usually laid before the British Parliament? — That I do not know. Though you cannot recal any specific instance in which persons aggrieved in the manner before described have received redress, do you recollect that such instances have in fact occurred ? — I recollect having several complaints laid before me against the conduct of the gomastahs or agents of the residents ; but I do not recollect any cases of extorting money, or any thing of that kind; they were the usual complaints for assault or battery, and I have settled them the same as between any other two individuals. (Examined by the Committee.) Does not the same law apply exactly to the Company's commercial residents as to every other person having dealings with the native weavers ? — Exactly so ; I apprehend, if it is against a Company's servant, the trial takes place in the court ; but I believe there must be some reference to the government before he can be removed, but I do not recollect the point having occurred ; it is a number of years since I was a magistrate in India : I know there is some specific regulation how to proceed respecting Company's servants in such cases ; the regulations are all printed ; the specific regulations I do not immediately recollect. Do you think that, practically speaking, merely the power of remov- ing individuals who may go to India under a Parliamentary enactment, would be sufficient, without a positive direction in the Act of Parlia- ment, that any transgression or evasion of an order from the govern- ment by any European, should ipso facto be followed by being sent out of the country, subject to the remission of that penaltv by the supreme government ? — I am certainly of opinion, that no Europeans whatever should be allowed in the interior of the country, without the greatest caution on the part of the government, and those Europeans should 3 S 2 certainly 500 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Stracey, certainly be uniler the strictest regulations ; a clause of that kind might Esq. be of great effect, in preventing their being guilty of any acts of violence * * ■ ■ v ' or of aggression, and thereby would tend to benefit. Would it not relieve both the district magistrate and the supreme government, in some cases where they might hesitate from the odium of exercising a strong act of power ? — I should think it would, because the terror of such a clause would certainly be efficacious in preventing many acts of oppression. Having been in many different parts of India, and having had an opportunity of judging of the disposition of the people of those parts, can you form any opinion of the proportion the Mussulmen bear to the Hindoos, in point of number? — In the district of Momensing I made a calculation, as well as I now recollect, of the inhabitants of the district, who amounted to between sixteen and seventeen hundred thousand; the proportion, as well as I could form an opinion from those who attended the public courts, bore about five to three in favour of the Hindoo. In the upper provinces how does the proportion stand, in your idea ? — At Cawnpore 1 made a calculation of the inhabitant*, in consequence of an order of government to endeavour to ascertain the consumption of sa.t, but the precise number of the inhabitants, or the proportion of Hindoo inhabitants, 1 do not at this moment recollect ; I think the Hindoos are more numerous there, in proportion to the Mahomedans, than they are in the eastern parts of Bengal. Do you consider those Mussulmen who have been put down from the offices of power and emolument equally contented with the British sovereignty as the Hindoos are ? — Most undoubtedly not for men who have been in the habit of having arbitrary power and authority do not like to relinquish it. Do you apprehend that disturbance to any extent among the Mussul- men might produce danger to the British sovereignty, as long as the Hindoos are contented and satisfied with the British government ? — That depends entirely upon the leader or the individual who might start up ; in the upper provinces, a man of ability, whether he was a Hindoo or a Mahonv?dan, would in those provinces be followed, I conceive, by a great number of both sects. Is there reason to imagine, that the occurrences in the Carnatic, alluding EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 501 alluding to the unfortunate catastrophe at Yellore, could produce any John Slracen, consequences that might affect an union between the Mussulmen and the Esq. Hindoos to put down the British power r — The circumstance at Vellore I y ' occurred since I left India: I have no further information upon that subject, than what I have gained from verbal reports, pamphlets, and other publications : 1 came to England in 1805, and that occurred in 1806 or IS07. How many Europeans, not in the service of the Company, do you think are now resident in the interior of Bengal? — 1 have no knowledge whatever ; there were several Europeans in the district of Tirhoot, but their precise number I do not r collect; there was only one in the district of Momensing, who was a Frenchman ; and in the district of Gawnpore there were only the soldiers, and the suttlers attached to the cantonments ; there were no European settlers. As far as you know, are there not a good many foreigners amongst those resident in the interior? — I believe there are in Calcutta, but I do not know that there are in the interior; there may be some few. Were not the Europeans, formerly entertained in the service of the native powers of India, principally foreigners? — I believe they were; at the court of the Nizam and in the Mahratta service there were some Englishmen, but mostly I believe were Frenchmen. Did not the whole of the Europeans entertained by the Mahratta chieftain, Scindiah, withdraw themselves from his service soon after the commencement of the war, under a proclamation of the Bengal govern- ment holding out encouragement to them to do so? — 1 believe some withdrew under the proclamation of the government ; but I believe also that Scindiah, after the battle of Assaye, and the taking of the fortress of Alhghur, dismissed a good many of them ; the half cast I have before mentioned was a captain in Scindiah' s service, and was dismissed imme- diately after the battle, along with the other officers that were with that army. Have you heard that the Mahratta chieftain, Holkar, under an appre- hension of disaffection on the part of his European officers, put them all to death ? — I do not recollect hearing of the circumstance; there were several of our European officers taken by Holkar, in the retreat of Colonel Monson's detachment, who were put to death by Holkar; but I do not know that he put any of those in his own service to death. r Do MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OX THE John Slracey, Do you conceive, that there would now be the same encouragement as Esq. formerly, either for the native princes of Imlia to entertain, or for ; ~y ' Europeans to be entertained in their service, under those circumstances ? — At present. I believe there is a specific article in the treaties of all the native powers, that they shall not employ or retain anv Europeans in their service ; abiding by that article, therefore, I do not see how they could well employ them. With reference to the disaffection and dismissal of the officers formerly in Scindiah's service, do not you conceive that those circumstances must prove discouraging, either to the native princes to entertain European officers in their service, or for European officers to be so entertained ? — That, I should think, would entirely depend upon the advantage that each would expect to derive ; the prince in regard to the services he expected to receive, and the European the emolument that was held out to him. Do you suppose that the native princes can now put the same trust as formerly in European officers ? — I really do not know how to answer that question, it depends so much upon circumstances. Do you understand whether there are any treaties with the native pow- ers, by wh;ch they stipulate not to employ Europeans in their service, except with the Peishwa and the Nizam ? — I always understood with all of them; I do not recollect seeing the treaties, excepting one, I think, with the Nizam ; but I understood it was the same with all the other powers, the rajah of Berar, the rajah of Jeypore, and others. [The witness withdrew. JAMES WILLIS, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : James Willis ^ r - -ddam7\ You are a Commissioner of the Customs ? — I am. Esq. How long have you been in that situation ? — About seven years and a half. Have you, in that situation, had an opportunity of considering the state of the illicit trade carried on in voyages to the port of London ? — From the reports of the officers. With regard to illicit trade in other parts of the kingdom, does your knowledge EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 50SI knowledge of that arise from the same sources ? — From the returns of the /,/,», $ /; officers. l',q. Have you had any opportunity of being acquainted particularly with the nature of the East India importations by the Company ? — Merely from the reports of the officers. Have you considered how far the opening an importation trade from the East Indies to this country would be likely to increase illicit trade or smuggling? — It has been considered by the Board, who have reported upon the subject. You have likewise considered it as one of the persons signing that re. port ? — 1 have. State to the Committee, whether you think the illicit trade, or smug- gling^ likely to be increased by an enlargement of the trade, and by per- mitting a free importation to differ, nt ports of the kingdom ? — I have no doubt that it will, from, the various opinions of our respective officers upon the subject. In what respect, cr in what way, do you suppose it will have that effect ? — The more the trade is extended and dispersed, the more I think would be the danger of smuggling we have to apprehend. There are certain guards and regulations now adopted by order of the Board of Customs, for the purpose of preventing illicit trade, and particularly for the purpose of preventing illicit trade from East Jndian importations ; do )ou conceive that those regulations and guards would be equally applicable to prevent it in a trade to the out-ports ? — Some of the out-ports are better adapted than others for the receprion of East India ships ; and those ports are specified in the report of our Board, which are Liverpool, Hull, and Bristol. The East India trade is carried on in ships of very considerable burthen ; the trade to China in ships of very large size ; the trade to the different ports of India in ships of not less than 800 tons r — Except the extra ships. Do you consider that the size of a ship in which the trade is carried on, affords the means, with greater facility, of preventing smuggling? — I should conceive that the smaller the ship th« more efl'ectuaf the guard would 504 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE James Willis, would be when within port ; but I should conceive that small ships caa Esq. approach nearer the coast than larger ships, and therefore more smuggling might be expected therefrom. Then upon the approach of smaller ships to their port of delivery, you consider that there would be a greater likelihood of smuggling from them than from large ships, in approaching their port of delivery ? — I do, certainly. You consider that to arise from the security of guarding a large ship with a larger cargo, and consequently greater value ; that you guard a greater quantity of cargo in a large ship than in a small one ? — I understand from the practical officers, those large ships are not so easily guarded as smaller ones in harbour. In the approach to a harbour in their voyage, when they come with- in the chops of the Channel, for instance ? — I should think there would be more danger from small ships than from large ones there, most un- donbtedly. Do not you consider that the dispersion of the cargo into smaller qua- lities, by being loaded on board smaller ships, is likely to produce a great- er quantity of smuggling than larger cargoes on board larger ships ? — I should conceive so. Your Board has reported that the trade ought not to be carried on, if carried on to the out ports, in ships of a less burthen than from three hun- dred and fifty to four hundred tons ?— Yes. Supposing the trade to be carried on to the out-ports, such as Bristol, Liverpool, Hull, Greenock, and soon, in ships of that diminished size, are you of opinion that that would give a greater facilityto smuggling than having the trade carried on as it is now in large ships, directly to the port of London ? — I should think so, certainly. Do not you consider that an increased number of ships, increased in consequence of their diminution in point of burthen, would tend likewise to the increase of smuggling ? — I think so. Are you acquainted bettrr with the state of the port of Liverpool, or the approaches to that post ? — Never having been there, I have not the least knowledge of it ; but there is one of our practical officers now in EAST-I*n"DIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. j05 in attendance, who has been lately there on service, who can speak to James Witts* that point; his name is Flood, he is inspector of the river. Esq. « -v- » Was he sent down to Liverpool ? — Yes, the year before last ; not with a view to this question but to correct some irregularities that were known to exist in the port. You have made a distinction between smuggling apprehended in port, and the smuggling apprehended upon the approach to the port ; are you of opinion that the smuggling in the approach to the port is likely to be more effectually prevented when carried on in large ves- sels in few numbers, than in small vessels in larger numbers ? — That is my opinion, clearly. Are you of opinion, that the smaller vessels and larger numbers goin^ to different ports, instead of being all bound to one port, as to the port of London, would increase the quantity of smuggling? — The more the trade is dispersed, of course, the more the danger of smuggling musr be increased. If that trade is carried on along a long line of coast, is there a likelihood of the smuggling being increased from that cause ?• — That must depend upon the gua:dthat is on the coast, both the water and the land-guard. Do you conceive the guard in the Channel to be better than the guard along the other parts of the coast ? — Most undoubtedly. Do you conceive that guard can be afforded with greater facility than along the other lines of coast ? — Yes, most undoubtedly ; the guard on the southern coast consists of fourteen cutters, thirt3'-six six-oared boars, and sixty-five riding officers. On the western coast, it consists often cutters, thirteen boats, and twenty seven riding officers. On the eastern coast, nine cutters, eleven boats, and thirty-two riding officers. What do you mean by the western coast ? — The coast opposite Ireland. Do you mean the coast of England in St. George's Channel ? — Yes ; the coast of England, opposite to Ireland. From what point to what point ?— From the Land's End up to Carlisle, which is the extent of our ports. 3 T From 5(10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE James Wdl\>, From thence northward, the jurisdiction of the Scotch Commissioners E*n. commences ? — Yes. "V- Where does the eastern coast begin, and where does it end ? — Fiom Margate up to Berwick. Have you had any opportunity of knowing the conduct of the owners of Indiamen, in respect to illicit trade ? — I never heard that they were con- cerned in it, nor do I know how they could be interested. Have you had any opportunity of knowing the conduct of the East- India Company wiih respect to the regularity of the importation of their cargoes ? — I never heard any complaint. Have you ever had any reason to suspect that there was any attempt on the part of the East-India Company, in their importations of cargoes, to bring them in illicit!}- ? — I cannot conceive that it is for their interest to attempt any such conduct. In point of fact, you know of no such attempt on the part of the Com- pany ? — I have not the least recollection of such a circumstance. Should you have reason to apprehend that the owners of private vessels, or the cargoes on board private vessel, importing generally under a free trade to the different ports of the kingdom, would have inducements to smuggle ? — I cannot say that I have any reason to suspect that they would. Would they have the means more readily afforded them to smuggle than such ships as the trade is now carried on in ? — Certainly. Mi»ht individuals become owners of ships, under a free trade, where it was carried on in bottoms of from 350 to 400 tons, with a view to smug- gling ?— They might, certainly ; I do not say that they will do so, but they might. You consider it as practicable ?• — Certainly. What do you think as to the probability of it ?— I think it probable. Do you think that the probability wouldextend to whole cargoes being smuggled in that way ? — No. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. LCty Do you conceive that smuggling is checked by the port of in5port.1i ion James Willis, from India being more directly and immediately under the eye of the Esq. Board of Customs ? — No doubt of it, and particularly so by a recent re- ( v — """' gulation adopted, of sending tide-waiters to meet the ships upon their arrival in the Downs, and to accompany them to the docks. Do you conceive that the officers are more likely to exert themselves in the discharge of their duty, by being more immediately under the eye of the Board ? — They ought to do so. Are you acquainted with the nature of the importation, and trade in India piece-goods ? — Merely from the returns of the practical officers. Can 3 t ou speak, of your own knowledge, with regard to any facilities arising from the nature of that trade, to carrying it on illicitly ? — The- smallness of the package certainly must afford more facility than many other articles of a more bulky nature. Do you think that there is likely to be considerable injury to the revenue from re-landing piece-goods imported for the purpose of expoitation, that are entered for the purpose of such exportation ? — Certainly. Do you think that danger is increased, in proportion to the number of out-ports to which the right of importation should be given ? — Yes. Have you got with you the reports on which the commissioners formed their reports to the Lords of the Treasury r— Yes, I have ; I have also an abstract. (Examined by the Committee.) Have you brought those documents by your own mere motion, or by desire of any person ? — I proposed in my answer as to the selection of Liver- pool and other ports, to have referred to these returns ; copies have been made, expecting an order to be given by Parliament for them • I have brought them of my own accord, in order to make such use of them as might be necessary. Have these abstracts been prepared under the direction of the commis- sioners of the customs ? —They have, under the authority of the Board. 3 T 2 Were' 508 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE James Willis, Were any practical officers sent down to the out-ports ? — Not with a Esq. view to this inquiry, but on other business. Could any opinion be formed what additional water guard and land officers may be necessary, to give the same degree of security to the revenue from the India and China trade, which it possesses at present ? — That is a matter which has never yet come under the consideration of the Board, but undoubtedly it will, in case the trade shall be extended, as is pro- posed, to the out-ports, become the duty of the commissioners to consider that. Do you think, that any mode of carrying on the import and export trade from India and China could be devised, so little exposed to smuggling and frauds on the revenue, so free from the objection of an increased number of officers, and at so little expense, likely for all articles ad valorem, pro- curing their real valae, and the duty payable thereon, as bringing the whole trade of India and China to the East India warehouses and docks, immediately under the inspection and superintendence of the superior Board of Customs ? — That question requires more consideration than I have at present time to give to, it ; no doubt the present system is as perfect as can be well expected, under all circumstances ; but whether one more perfect can be devised, it is very difficult for me to say. According to your professional knowledge of what may be practised, from what has been practised in different parts of the kingdom, can you not apply that knowledge to the question now proposed to you ? — I think the present system is as perfect as, under all the circumstances, can be ex- pected ; but certainly there may be evils in the present system. If ships of 350 tons were at liberty to come and go from different ports along the coast of the kingdom, open to the possibility of re-landing pro hibited articles, or articles on which a great drawback has been allowed, is or is not the danger of smuggling greater than from the mode in which the trade is now carried on in larger ships going from a single port ? — I think I have given an answer already to that question in the affirmative. You have already stated, you conceive the revenue in considerable hazard, according to the length of coast the ship has to run ; in your opinion, would not a port situated at the entrance of the Channel, sur- rounded by British cruisers in aid of the excise and customs, be a most de- sirable position, provided all other accommodations within the port were such as to meet the approbation of the Boards of custom and excise ? — I thoud think, more preferable than a port to the northward. Is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. SCQ Is not the observation of the commissioners of excise and customs, as James Willis, given in their report respecting Liverpool, Hull, and Bristol, governed E>q. by the great accommodations afforded in those ports, within the ports ? — *•- * ! The reasons for the selection of the ports of Hull, Bristol, and Liverpool, are, because they are already warehousing ports, affording greater security in the opinion of the Board than any other ports, in the ports them- selves, and because there are already establishments at those ports as ware- housing ports. Is the Committee to understand you that the accommodation was framed upon the accommodation within the ports, and with no relation to geographical situation ? — I think so ; that was the impression on my mind at the time. [The Witness withdrew] Mr. JOHN LEE was called in, and examined, as follows: Mr. Impey.~] What situation do you hold at the India House? — Mr John Lee Assistant clerk to the committee of private-trade. . Do you know that there are standing orders of the Court of Directors, framed for the purpose of preventing the deviation of ships employed in the Company's service, and for the detection and punishment of persons who shall be concerned in illicit trade ? — Certainly. Have you a copy of those orders ? — I have. [The Witness produced them, and they were read as follows :] " STANDING ORDERS a/ the Court of Directors of the United *' Company of Merchants of England, trading to the East Indies, " for preventing the deviation of ships employed in the Company s " service, and for the detection and punishment if persons zvho " shall be concerned in illicit trade. " At a Court of Directors, held the 1 lth of September 1776. " Ordered, That it be a standing order of this court, that in future, " within six weeks alter each of the Company's homeward-bound " ships is cleared, the commander and officers thereof be summoned c * to attend a joint committee of private trade and shipping, to whom i " it J It* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. John Lee. (! it is referred to make strict inquiry into the reasons of any deviations " which shall have been made by such a ship during the whole course " of her voyage, and that the said committee do with all convenient " speed, report their opinion thereon to the court." 11 At a Court of Directors, held the 23d May 1777. " The court taking into consideration the mischief arising to the " Company by the illicit trading, both outward and homeward- " bound, of the commanders and officers of ships in the Company's " service; and it having appeared by informations received from the " officers of government, and by other proofs laid before the court, " that such practices are frequently carried on at foreign ports, or in " Ireland, Scotland, or out-ports in this kingdom, to which the ships '•' proceed contrary to the orders and instructions given to the com- " manders, or by means of vessels which meet the Company's ships " at sea, and there deliver to and receive goods from them : " Resolved unanimously, In order to detect and bring such of- " fenders to punishment, that it be a standing order of this court, " That the clerk to the committee of private trade do within four " weeks next after each of the Company's homeward ships shall be " cleared, collect from the ships' journals, and from letters and other " thingswhichshall cometo hisknowledge(and whichhe shall examine " for the purpose) an account of all the ship's proceedings to or to- " wards any port or place both outward and homeward bound, with- " out or contrary to the Company's orders or instructions, and of all *' the ship's deviations from or loitering in the course of her voyage " in the English Channel, or elsewhere, and do state the same in " writing to the chairman and deputy chairman, and also to the re- " spective committees of private trade and shipping, in order that " such matters may respectively be taken into consideration by the " joint committee of private trade and shipping, pursuant to the " standing order of this cour 1 ", made the 1 1th day of September last ; and it is further resolved, that in case the committee of private trade and shipping shall not, within six weeks after such state laid before them as aforesaid, report to this court that such ships, pro- ceeding to such ports or places, without or contrary to the orders of the Company, and such deviations or loitering were necessary or prudent for the safety of the ship and cargo, the Company's so- licitor shall be informed thereof by the clerk of the said committee, " and he shall forthwith, without further orders, file a bill in the " Court of Exchequer against the commander of such ship, and " such other persons as counsel shall advise to be necessary parties, «' charging ee EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIKS. 511 '* charging them with having been concerned in illicit trade, and prayinga full -discovery thereof and relief for the damages sushiim-d, thereby waving all other penalties, according to Act of Parlia- •* merit made in that behalf, which suit sha'l not be stopped or " stayed by any order or vote of court or any committee thereof. " Resolved unanimously, That it be a standing order of this court, " that when any suit is ordered by this court to be brought against " any person or persons on account of illicit trade, upon any inform- ■' ation or evidence laid before the court, the proceedings thereon " shall not be stayed at any time after the next subsequent court, by " any order or vote of this court or any committee thereof. " Resolved unanimously, That upon the arrival of the Company's •' ships in the River Thames, the clerk of the committee of private " trade, shall forthwith give notice thereof to the master-attendant '*' and surveyor of shipping, and thereupon the master-attendant, or "" his assistant, or in case they shall be otherwise previously employed, " then the surveyor of shipping, or his assistant, shall forthwith re- " pair on board the said ship or ships before any goods shall be de- * livered, and shall carefully examine the state and condition of the *' hold, and of every part of the lower deck, and report to the com- " mittee of private trade, what vacant space, if any, shall remain " therein that is fit and proper for the stowage of goods ; and also, " whether any packages appear to have been removed, disturbed, or "•* replaced during the homeward bound passage. " Resolved unanimously, That if on examination it should be re- *■ ported by the officer or officers above-mentioned, that any space is " left in the hold proper for the stowage of goods, the commander of " such ship sha'l forfeit and pay to the Company the sum of £. 100, " for every sixty cubical teet of such vacant space, unless it shall " appear upon the ship's journals, or other authenticated paper, that " the said commander, upon his application in wiiting to the go- " vernorand council at 'he settlement from whence he was last dis- " patched, or to the supra cargoes in China, was refused a larger " quantity of go,>d» ; or unless it shall appear to the committee that " such vacancy had arisen from the settlement of the cargo, or some ** other unavo' iable accident, during the course cf the voyage. " Resolved unanimously, That the commanders of the Company's " ships be directed by the said committee not to open nor permit the " hatches of their ships to be opened on their arrival in the river " Thames till the officer or officers abovementioned shall come on " board for the purpose of such examination. " It 512 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. John Lee. u l* frequently happening that practices of smuggling by this L___, j " Company's officers are discovered by his Majesty's officers of the " customs, and suits are brought thereon which do not come to the " knowledge of this court, and compositions are often made of iuch *' suits very much to the prejudice of this Company : " Resolved unanimously, That this Company's solicitor do forth - " with apply to his Majesty's commissioners of the customs, and re- " quest, that they will be pleased to order their solicitor to give this " C >mpany's solicitor an account of a!! suits now depending; and also, " from time to time, of aiL suits that shall hereafter be brought " against any of the commanders and officers of this Company's " ships, for practices of smuggling of East India goods, and of all the " proceedings thereon; which account the Company's solicitor shall " forthwith communicate to the chairman and deputy chairman, and " to the respective committees of private trade and shipping, in " order that they may pursue such measures as shall appear proper." Do you know that copies of those standing orders are given to all com- manders of outward-bound ships with their instructions? — Immediately after their being sworn in, copies of those instructions are given them, as well as a printed book of instructions. Do you know that by the terms of the charter-parties, by which the Company's ships are engaged, the commanders and the first and second mates of each ship are bound to keep exact journals of all transactions that occur during the course of the voyage, together with a diary of ship's courses, winds, &cc. ? — Most certainly. Do you know that the officers above-stated are bound to deliver upon oath, if required, to the clerk of the committee of private trade, the journals and diary stated in the former question ? — Certainly. Do you know that those journals are in fact invariably kept and deli- vered ? — Invariably so. Do you know that upon the return of the homeward bound ships, the commanders deliver up, at the India-House, all the orders and pnpers which they receive abroad or in the course of their voyage r — Regu- larly so. Do you know that those journals and papers are very minutely examined to detect any deviation or illicit practice in the course of the voyage ? — Certainly so. If EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 5iS If any deviation or illicit practice is discovered, .what is the course Mr. John Lee. adopted ? — It is the duty of the clerk, so soon as the journals are received ' v ' and attested by the several officers to be their original journals, the com- mander's official papers also delivered, the result of the proceedings of the Company's governments abroad, on unloading and loading the ship, and every transaction appertaining to the commander's conduct examined, to collect from those particulars an account ot all the ship's proceedings outward or homeward-bound, without or contra to the Company's orders and instructions, and of all deviations trom or loitering in the course of her vovage ; a detail of which is submitted in writing to the Committee of Private Trade, who invariably examine the commander personally, pre- vious to his being deemed eligible for a further command ; this inves- tigation takes place previous to the entire payment of the proceeds of the private freight, and a final adjustment between the Company and the owner for the freight and earnings of the ship ; and if there should, in the course of the investigation, appear the minutest deviation from the Com- pany's orders or instructions, the Committee of 1'rivate Trade recom- mend for the adoption of the Court of Directors, such punishment as the nature of the offence may merit, either a reprimand, fine, suspension, or dismissal from the Company's service. Where any officer of the Company is either charged with or suspected of such deviation, or any illicit practices, is such person permitted to resume any command in the Company's service till he has discharged himself of such suspicion ? — Most undoubtedly not. Do you know whether strict orders are not given, and precautions taken, to prevent the homeward-bound ships from loitering at any out- port or in the Channel ? — The contract entered into between the East- India Company and the owners, called the charter-party, provides, that if any commander puts into any port in his outward voyage for the purpose of illicit trade, himself and owners arc liable to pay out of the freight J_ 100 per day for every day the ship remains at such port of deviation, and the freight received is to be considered as unlicensed goods, and forfeited to the Company : the charter-party also provides, that if a commander touches at the island of Ascension, or sails from St. Helena in the night, without permission of the" Company's government, the owners and master &hall forfeit out of the freight £'1Q0; it also covenants, that if the commander touches at Barbadoes, or any other island or port in America, without orders, the owners and master shall forfeit in like manner out of the freight £,\Q per ton on every ton the ship'is chartered for ; there is a further provision also in the charter party, that in case the ship puts into any of 3U the 514 MINUTES Of EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. JoJia Lee. the western islands, or Plymouth, or any port of England and Ireland, or v v ; ; >ny other port or ports in Europe, without orders, the owners and master sHall pay to the said Company out of the freight X500 for every such offence, as well as tfuir daily demorage for such time as the ship remains, or as she shall lose by the deviation. Are orders likewise given by the Company, that revenue officers shall be received on board the homeward-bound ships as soon as they arrive in the Channel, and have access to every part of them, to detect any ihicit prac- tice ? — Certainly so. Upon the arrival of every ship, does not a survey take place as to her stowage, to see whether there is any vacant space, or any packages have been removed or disturbed tor illicit purposes? — On the ship's arriving at her moorings in the river Thames, intimation is given by the clerk lo the cbnirhittee, to the Company's master (attendant and surveyor or shipping, who, or their officers, proceed on board previous to the opening of the hatches, tor the purpose of examining the suite and condition of the hold, and of every part of the lower deck; tne master attendant reports to the clerk of the Commiitee if any vacant space remain* therein ; and whether the ship is stowed conforf'iab.y to the Company's regulation 1 -., and the con- ditions of their contract. There is also another description of Company's officers, called a surveyor of private trade, whose duty in the first instance on proceeding on board, is to examine the sh.p before she begins to work, to see whether the holds a r e full; and if no:, to render an account to the Committee of Private Trade of tne vacant space ; and when the ship is not at wo:k, to affix locks sent on board by the Company, to all the hatch- ways and scuitles leading into the hoi 1, and to keep the keys of the same ; ako the keys of the gun-room, ports, lazaret, bread- room, and powder- room ; and on discovery of any of those places being opened clandestinely, it becomes his duty to report the same. The surveyors have also directions to rummage the ship, whenever they shall judge it necessary, for the pur- pose of discovering illicit trade ; and every morning, before he unlocks the nafcheS or scuttles, to examine every part of the ship not under the Com- pany's locks; if he shall discover any illicit articles, his instructions are to secure the same, and report it to the Committee of Private Trade. If the Surveyor connives at clandestine trade, be is subject to dismissal from the Company's service. The Surveyor keeps a journal of daily trans- actions, and regular accounts of goods received and delivered out of the ship, as well as the state of the :>towa.;e; the officers of the customs are permitted, jointly with the Company s s urvs.yors, to secure the gun-room, ports, and scuttles, with locks and cnains ; also to put locks on the several hatchways, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR5. 515 hatchways leading into the hold from the lower deck. There is a clause Mr. John Lcr. in the Surveyor's instructions, furnished to them by the Court of Directors, l v > giving, as an encouragement to the Surveyor, such proportion of the net produce of all forfeitures which the Company can claim by virtue ot any information or discovery he shall make of clandestine trade, as the Court shall judge to be a proper reward for his vigilance ; he is generally instructed faithfully to follow all orders or instructions, which, by his oath or security bond, he is obliged to do, on pain of immediate dismissal from the service. Do you know, in point of fact, that where any officers of the Companv have been detected in illicit trade, they have been severely punished either by dimission, or suspension, or heavy fines? — In every case, within my knowledge, they have been so punished. In consequence of the precautions taken by the Company, have the detections of.such illicit practices in the captains or superior officers, been frequent or unfrequent ? — Not frequent within my experience. [The Witness witdrew. [Adjourned to Monday, eleven o'clock. LWnce, 3° die Maij 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. The Committee Room was cleared. The Committee determined that the names of the agents, appointed to act on the part of the petitioners against the renewal of the Eait India Company's exclusive privileges, be J difficult to ascertain what Europeans might make their way clandestinely into the states of the different jaghiredars, who exercise almost an independent authority and jurisdiction over the estates or jaghires which belong to them ; and over whom, as the Nizam scarcely exercises" any superior controul or authority, it would be of course proportionably difficult for the resident to use any influence, either in preventing them from receiving those Europeans into their service, or prevailing upon them to dismiss them, after they should have so entered. Having been so long a time resident at Hydrabad, are you of opinion that the treaties with the Nizam would not prevent the entertainment of Europeans by the chieftains and jaghiredars whom you have mentioned ? — The power which the resident can exercise, under the stipulation of those treaties, is to call upon the Nizam to dismiss from his service any Europeans against whom the British government may have any objection ; and as long as the Nizam is disposed to execute all the stipulations of that treaty, of course there would be no difficulty in procuring the dismissal of any Europeans against whom the resident might object ; but the case with respect to the jaghiredars is different in many instances ; the Nizam can exercise but a very small degree of authority over those jaghiredars, and the resident has no other power over those jaghiredars than that which can be exercised through the paramount sovereign of the state ; this exists to such a degree, that in one instance, it was necessary for the resident to threaten a jaghiredar with the presence of a considerable force belonging to the Company, before he could prevail upon him to give up some deserters from one of his Majesty's regiments ; of course, this expedient was not resorted to, until the Nizam confessed to the resident that it was not in his power to oblige the jaghiredar to give up those deserters, and therefore authorised the resident to employ the means which he had at his disposal, in compelling the jaghiredar of the Nizam to submit to the authority of his own sovereign ; in all such cases, it would be extremely difficult, in some cases impossible, for the resident to procure the dismissal of such Europeans, except by the actual employment of a military force ; when- ever that expedient was adopted, of course, there could be no difficulty in obliging any of the jaghiredars either to give up Europeans, or to submit to the authority of the Nizam in any point. Do you think that those inferior chieftains and jaghiredars might entertain Europeans in their service without its coming to the knowledge of EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 525 of the resident at Hydrabad ? — Very probably ; I should conceive it is Thos.Sii&'nliam, impossible for the resident, however vigilant he may be, to become Esq. acquainted with all the circumstances that take place on the estates of * v ' jaghiredars and chieftains, who I have already described exercising independent authority over those possessions ; the first intelligence which will probably reach the resident of any Europeans being in the service of any particular jaghiredar, would be the improvement of the military force belonging to that jaghiredar ; but they may have remained for some time, and may have exercised a very dangerous influence, before the resident should have received any intelligence of their having been there. From the knowledge which you have of the tastes and habits of the natives of Hindostan, are you of opinion that in the event of a free trade being established between this country and that there will be any materially increased demand in Hindostan, among the natives, for European produce or manufactures ? — I beg to confine my observations to that part of the peninsula which is generally called the Deccan, that portion of territory which lies between the rivers Godavery and the Nerbuddah : the chief part of the population of that country is Hindoo, especially those provinces which are under the Mahrattah government; there is a considerable population of Mussulmen in the provinces under the dominion of the Nizam; there is scarcely any remarkable place throughout the whole of that tract, that I have not visited during the period of my residence, either at Poonah or at Hydrabad ; with respect to that part of the population which is Hindoo, I should not conceive that any change in the system of trade between this country and India, would be likely to produce any increase in the demand for articles of European produce or manufacture; with regard to the Mussulmen part of the population, that portion of it who are agriculturists, have adopted nearly all the habits and customs of the Hindoos ; and, with regard to them, the same observation may apply which has already- been made respecting the Hindoos at Hydrabad, and some of the great towns in the Deccan; there are many Mussuimen inhabitants, cither attached to the court or employed in the military service of the Nizam, who are men of considerable private fortunes, and of inhabitants of expense; it is probable in this class of the Mussulmen inhabitants, there may be some considerable increase of demand for the productions of Europe, if by any change in the system of carrying on the trade the prices of those commodities were considerably lowered; but the increase would be inconsiderable, and scarcely sufficient, I should conceive, to merit the attention of the government of this country ; for ten years previously to the conclusion of the last commercial treaty with the Nizam, the 526 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos Sydenham, the average of the imports of Earopean goods did not exceed twenty- Esq. four thousand pounds a year ; and as late as the year 1809, I could not ** ascertain that the imports had gone much beyond that sum. In those parts of Hindostan with which you have been acquainted,, have the general mass of the population the means of purchasing Euro- pean commodities if they were so inclined ? — It has appeared to me, that the general mass of the population in every part of India with which I am acquainted, have not the means, even if they had the wish, of purchasing any considerable proportion of European goods ; the surplus beyond the supply of their immediate necessities being always consumed in their festivals, marriages, and other religious ceremonies. Having stated that there are many Mussulmen noblemen of considerable private fortunes at Hydrabad, who might purchase European commodities it they were so inclined; state to the Committee in what manner they are accustomed to spend their superfluous wealth ? — All the noblemen at the court of Hydrabad are employed in the military service of their sovereign ; they have been bred up either as soldiers or as courtiers, and they expend their fortunes either in keeping up as large a retinue of servants and depen- dents as their fortune will allow, or consume their wealth in the profligacy and corruption of the court at which they reside ; many of the noblemen have expended some part of their fortune in fitting up their houses rather in the English mode ; but after the novelty had ceased, they generally returned to their former habits, and seemed to repent of the sums which had been expended in the imitation of our habits. Is not the Nizam himself considered as one of the most wealthy princes in India ? — I believe the Nizam to be the wealthiest individual now in India. In point of fact, does the Nizam expend any considerable amount of his wealth in the purchase of European produce or manufactures? — I did not observe that the Nizam expended any portion of his private wealth in the purchase of any articles of European manufacture, except for such woollens as were necessary to caparison his elephants, camels, and horses ; the presents which have been made to the Nizam at several periods being quite sufficient to supply him with such articles of taste or luxury as he might wish to have. Durirg the time you were at Hydrabad, did you yourself make con- siderable presents of European articles to. the Nizam ? — 1 had on one oc- casion EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIflS. 5"2T. casiort an opportunity of m;iking European presents to the Nizam, to a T/io.f.Si/(lcnliam t - consklerable amount ; the circumstances which gave rise to tho^e presents Esq. being made, were, that a fourth of the second share of the Seringapatam ' that treaty was, to encourage and facilitate the trade between the Company's provinces and the teintories of the Nizam ; previously to the conclusion of that treaty, a great number of exorbitant vexatious duties 528 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Sydenham, duties had been imposed upon the trade between the two countries; those duties were collected partly on the frontier, partly on the road between the frontier and the capital, and partly at the capital itself; the obiectioti to those duties was, first, that they' were very exorbitant, amounting, in some instances, to nearly 45 per cent. ; that they were uncertain in the amount, as many of them were collected by the jaghiredars of the pro- vinces through which the goods passed, and that the goods themselves were subject to great delays, and the merchants to considerable impo- sitions on the part of the officers belonging to those jaghiredars; by the commercial treaty between the Nizam and the Company, the whole of the frontier and road duties were abolished, and one duty of five per cent, ad valorem was to be collected in future at the capital itself. Did the commercial treaty that you have just stated, by the reduction of duties and the removal of the vexatious impediments of trade you have mentioned, increase in any considerable degree in the territories of the Nizam, the demand for European commodities ? — The trade between the Nizam and those of the Company in articles of European produce and manufacture was so trifling, as scarcely to be affected by the advan- tages of the commercial treaty ; the principal trade which was carried on between those territories was the supply of cotton from the province of Berar, to that part of the Company's territories known by the name of the Northern Circars ; some cotton is also sent to the markets at Vellore and Arnee, and other places in that neighbourhood ; the merchants who carry the cotton from the Nizam's territories into the Company's territories, return with cargoes of salt and salt fish, with some of the manufactured clothsof the Northern Circars, and with that kind of muslin manufactured in the neighbourhood of Arnee, called, I believe, the Arnee muslins ; it was principally for the purpose of giving facility to this trade between the inhabitants of the respective territories, that the treaty was concluded with the Nizam by the Cumpany. Is it your opinion, that, according to the present system of trade, the mutual wants of the inhabitants of the Nizam's territories, and those of the East-India Company, are adequately and fully supplied ? — Certainly ; when I left India, it appeared to me that all the wants of the inhabitants of the Nizam's territories were fully and adequately supplied ; but those wants were chiefly confined to the importation of salt and salt fish, in ex- change for the cotton, which was sent to the manufacturing provinces tinder the Company's dominion,. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'o AFi'AIRS. 529 Are the cities and large towns in the dominions of the Nizam well sup- Thos. Sydenham, plied with European articles, il there should be any demand for them Esq. among the natives? — Not onlv the principal cities and 'towns, lv.it many of the larger description of villages, throughout the cultivated parts of the Deccan, appenred to me to he abundantly supplied with all such articles of European manufacture as the natives are generally in want of; and they are supplied by a race ot men, who purchase those commodities at Bombay, and retail them over the whole of the Deccan. State what those articles are which are usually consumed by the natives ? — Those articles consist principally ot woollens, English chintzes, knives, scissars, razors, spectacles, looking-glasses, small prints, and articles of that description, what are called hardware. Were there any increased demand among the natives for those articles; could that demand be readily supplied, under the present system, either from the India Company's warehouses, or from other sources? — As the increase, supposing any increase to take place, would probably be small, I should suppose theie would be no difficulty whatsoever in supplying those articles to the extent for which any demand might be made for them; and even if the increase should be more considerable than I con- ceive it likely to become, I should think, there could be no difficulty in supplying them, either from the Company's warehouses, or from the private trade carried on by the captains and officers of the Company's ships. I believe that most of those articles are procured at Bombay and Madras from the public sales at those presidencies, after the ships have left them ; the principal part of the investments of the captains of India- men are purchased up by the European inhabitants at the presidencies, and the surplus is generally sold at public auction, and bought by small dealers, and carried into the interior cf the country. Do you know whether the articles, which you have just spoken of as being sold by auction at the presidencies, are usually sold at those auctions at high or at low prices? — Chiefly at very low prices; indeed, on most occasions, I believe, considerably under the prime cost of the articles. Are you of opinion that, in the event of a free trade, there would be any considerable vent for the woollens of this country in the interior parts of India ? — in that part of India with which I am most acquainted, namely the Deccan, I do not conceive that any reasonable reduction of price would increase the demand for woollens ; the inhabitants of that 3 Y part 530 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Tlios. Sydenham, Part of India are obliged to use warm cloathing for two or three months Emnund ; as this fVat.i- "*" ' rally excited my attention to the state of the whole corps, I thought pro] er to recommend to the Nizam, that the corps should be disciplined a cord- ing to the English system, and receive their words of command in English, in order that they might be enabled to move with the Company's corps forming the subsidiary force. When I hid obtained the permission of the Nizam to carry this measure into effect, I sent an English officer to one of the corps to make the alteration which I had suggested ; but the sepoys refused to receive the English system of discipline, or to be com- manded in the English lane:uas'e : the officer attempted to enforce obe- .... o o r dience to his orders, and a mutiny took place: this led to the reform of the whole corps ; and in the progress of that reform., I detected, and had to send out of the country from twenty to thirty European foreigners and half casts, whose existence in the Nizam's dominions I had before been a perfect stranger to. After that reform I adopted such measures as appeared to me most likely to prevent the reeurrence of such a circumstance; and I believe, that with regard to the Nizam's service, it would be very diffi- cult, indeed impossible, for any Europeans to be employed in that service without the knowledge and the sanction of the resident ; but the case is different with regard to the jaghiredars ; and although 1 do not conceive, that while the resident exercises a becoming degree of vigilance, and is supported with sufficient authority from the Nizam, that it would be possible for any Europeans in the service of those jaghiredars,. to excite disturbances, or to indispose the minds of the jaghiredars sufficiently to become openly hostile and dangerous, still they certainly might lessen the attachment of those jaghiredars to the Nizam, and might indispose their minds towards the alliance with the Company, to such a degree as would at all events be, I cannot say very dangerous, but extremely inconvenient ; , and in the event of any invasion from an enemy, might be the means of inducing those persons to join the standard of any prince in open hostility against the Nizam and the Company. I think it would be difficult for any large number of Europeans to be concealed for any time in the estates of the jaghiredars, without the knowledge of the resident ; but I certainly conceive that a few might be concealed, and for some time exercise a very dangerous influence without the knowledge of the resident. In the event of the Nizam himself being disposed to shake off his connection with the Company, I should then conceive that the residence of a very few Eu- ropeans, men of talent, and of desperate habits of life in the Nizam's dominions, would be productive of the most mischievous consequences. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. Do you not conceive that in the districts in which you have resided, the Thos.Sudcnham, natives would prefer British manufactures, cqualiv suited to their own use, Esq. if cheaper, than those articles thev themselves manufacture? — I believe * ' that if goods of British manufacture could be carried into India cheaper than those which are produced in India, many natives would prefer them; but I really am not prepared to say whether the great bulk oi the inhabi- tants would not prefer their own manufactures to those of any foreign country, even supposing the others could be procured at a cheaper rate and equally suited to their consu nption : it must be considered that a great number of the inhabitants are employed in those manufactures, and gain their livelihood by those manufactures; and this consideration alone would induce most people to give the preference to their own manufactures, even if they could procure other articles equally suited to their consumption, at rather a cheaper rate. Do you think these patriotic motives would operate upon the great mass of the district, to which you allude r — I think those motives would naturally operate in a great degree, as long as the price ol the foreign goods was not considerably less than their own manufactures ; it the price should fall considerably, I confess, in that case, it is probable that the natives would prefer a thing much cheaper, provided it was equally good. Is the Committee to understand it to be your opinion, that the natives are at present furnished with woollens manufactured in India, suitable to their u^e, at a cheaper rate than they can be supplied from Europe with the same articles ? — Certainly, I conceive that to be the case, though I am not prepared to state the exact difference in price. What is the number of the principal jaghiredars under the Nizam's go- vernment ? — It would be rather difficult to answer that question, because, in fact, every military man, who has more than from fifty to a hundred horse in the service of the Nizam, is a jaghiredar. The number upon the whole, is considerable ? — -It is. The jaghiredars are of two descriptions ; the Hindoo jaghiredars or zemindars, .such as the rajah of Sholapore, who possessed those estates from the commencement almost of the first kings of the Deccan, and over whom the Nizam exercises a very uncertain and undefined authority; the other description of jaghiredars, are the military officers in the service of the Nizam, and of those 1 suppose, that there cannot be less than from forty to fitly principal. mi i he 5.34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos Sydenham, The whole country is under the management, in a subordinate way, of Esq. those jaghiredars, of one, description or another? — Almost the whole of «- v ' the country ; with the exception only ot church lands, what may be called the crown lands, and small parts ot the territory which are held by the old Hindoo zemindars* [The further examination of this Witness was postponed. [I he Witness withdrew. [Adjourned to To-morrow, 1 1 o'clock. Martis, 4° die Mali, 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. THOMAS SYDENHAM, Esq. was again called in, and further ex- amined by the Committee as follows : You stated in your evidence yesterday, that a commercial treaty had b;en concluded with the Nizam, while you were resident at Hydrabad ; were any measures taken by the government of India to avail itself of the encouragement and facility afforded to trade by that treaty, either by- sending goods for sa'e to the market of Hydrabad. or by permitting private furopean traders to establish themselves at that capital, — and if so, what was the efiect of those measures ? — After the conclusion of the commercial treaty between the Nizam and the Company, the govern- ment of India was disposed to establish a warehouse at Hydrabad; but on inquiry it was found that such a measure would not be productive of anv advantage to the public, and in consequence of the opinion of the resident, that plan was laid aside. At the same time, government caused it to be known to some of the houses of agency both at Calcutta and Madras, that they might send up their agents to Hydrabad, for the purpo e of supplying the market at Hydrabad and its neighbouring pro- vinces with certain articles of Europeafi and Chinese produce and manu- factures. In consequence of this notification, the house of Messrs. Colt, Baker EAST INDIA COMPANY S AFFAIRS, 635 Baker and Company, did send up an agent of the name of Richardson to Ihos. Sydenham, Hy lira bad for the purpose of establishing a house of business at that capital, Esq. and of selling articles of European and Chintse produce and manufactures : V r * I was at Hydrabad when this agent arrived at that capital, but being shortly after compelled to return to England, I was not present to watch the progress or that establishment: On my return, however, to Hydra- bad in about three years after that period, I found that the concern had completely failed ; that Messrs. Colt and Baker, the principals, had withdrawn their agent : The business, however, was afterwards carried on by another person of the name of Robinson, who in the course of a few months, found it impossible to sell off, to any advantage, the goi :1s which he had procured from "Madras and Calcutta, and was compelled to send part of them back to Madras, and to sell the remainder by public auction at very reduced prices; the loss sustained by Mr. Robinson in this transaction was so considerable, that I believe he would have been ruined, if it had not been in my power to procure him a situation under the Nizam's government; as I was anxious to afford every facility and encouragement within my power to Mr. Robinson, and as he stated to me, that he probably would succeed, if a district in the Nizam's domi- nions were made over to him for the purpose of superintending in person the manufacture of cloths, and other articles, I obtained from his highness the Nizam, a grant for three years, of the very district which Mr. Ro- binson pointed out to me as the one most likely to answer his purpose; however, at the end of six or eight months, Mr. Robinson, notwithstand- ing every encouragement and support was afforded to him by the Nizam's government, was anxious to restore the district to the Nizam's authority, and abandoned his speculation altogether. I he second instance which [ shall mention, is the establishment of a shop for the sale of European goods in the city of Hydrabad : the house of Hope and Company had, for some time, opened a shop in the cantonment of the Company's sub- sidiary force ; and as some of the natives from the city of Hydrabad resorted to that shop, for the purchase of various European articles, it occurred to Mr.Hope,and to his agent in the cantonment, that it might be advantageous to open a shop within the walls of the city of Hydrabad, so as to enable the inhabitants of that city to have free access whenever they chose to that shop, instead of being obliged, as they had formerly been, to obtain the permission of the Nizam's government to visit tbe cantonment; as it was my wish to afford every facility in my power to the view of those private traders, I requested, and obtained from the minister of the Nizam's government, permission for Mr. Hope's agent to open a shop in the city of Hydrabad ; the minister gave him a house, and convenient magazines for the reception of his goods ; gc him a guard bob' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T/iGS.tydenhain, guard to protect the premise?, and afforded him every possible degree Esq. of encouragement and support; however, in a very short time, Mr. v v ' Hope's agent found it impossible to dispose of such a quantity of Euro- pean goods as would make the concern at all an advantageous one ; and the agent himself, in a short time, could sell nothing but wines and spi- rituous liquors. As the principal object for which the shop was established had completely failed, and as I conceived it would be disreputable to permit an European to keep merely a brandy shop in the city of Hydra- bad, where, of course, many disturbances take piace from the quarrels of persons in a state of intoxication, I withdrew the license which I had given to Mr. Hope's agent, and he returned to his former shop within the precincts of the British cantonment. These are the results of the only establishments which were attempted at Hydiabad, for the purpose of increasing the sale of European goods. How are the troops in the service of the Nizam clothed, armed, and equipped, and from what sources are the supplies procured ? — Ail the cavalry of the Nizam clothe themselves according to their own taste and fancy ; the regular infantry in his highness's service is now clothed in red British cloth, in order to render their appearance as similar as possible to the Company's troops stationed within his dominions; they are armed from the Company's stores ; and they are equipped with accoutrements made either at Masulipatam or at Madias : since the introduction of the red clothing amongst the regular infantry of the Nizam, the principal jaghiredars have also clothed their troops in the same manner, and this indeed is one of the principal demands for our woollens within the do- minions of his highness the Nizam. What number may the regular infantry be in the Nizam's service, so clothed ? — From 12 to 15,000, besides 7 or 8,000 in the service of the jaghiredars. What, in your opinion, is the general moral character of the Hindoos ?— It is really very difficult to give the character of so very large a portion of the human race, who, although they possess many qualities in com- mon, an; of course distinguished by strong shades of difference in dif- ferent parts of India ; those shades of difference arising from the climate under which they live; the government to which they are subject ; the casts which prevail more in some parts of India than in others; their habits an! occupations, and other circumstances, which in all countries produce a difference in the moral character of men; for instance, the character oi the Mahrattas, most of whom have been nurtured and brought up EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 537 up in the exercise of arms, and the practice of war, and in those habits Thos.Sy hnham, of depredation which is the basis of their political character, must of Esq. course be very different from the character of the Hindoos in the more v_ ■ ^.—J peaceable provinces of the south ; again, the character of tbe northern Hindoos, who inhabit the country between the Nerbudda and the Attock, who arc almost all of a military tribe; the cast of Rajpoots and Baj-i wars, who are governed by petty princes, and divided into small inde- pendent states, in continual conflict with each other, have a character very different from the Hindoos of the southern provinces, and even from the tribes of the Mahratta nation : To define the moral character of so ex- tensive a nation, within the compass of any answer which it may be in my power to give to the Committee, will be of course extremely dif- ficult ; but I think the general character of the Hindoo is submissive, docile, sober, inoffensive, as long as his religious prejudices and habits are not violated ; capable of great attachment and loyalty, ns long as they are well treated by their governors and masters; quick in apprehension, intelligent, active, generally honest, and performing the duties of charity, benevolence and filial affection, with as much sincerity and regularity as any nation with which I am acquainted. Are the Hindoo women kept in a state of slavery, degradation or seclu- sion ? — I have never observed that the Hindoo women are kept in a state of slavery, degradation or seclusion ; I believe that they are permitted to go abroad whenever they chuse upon their domestic concerns, and fre- quently for the mere purposes of exercise and amusement ; they are to be seen in every town and village of the country; they manage the internal concerns of their families ; and it has always struck me, that they are treated with great confidence by their relations, and with respect by strangers. While I was resident at Poonah, I had frequently occasion to transact business with the ministers of the Mahratta court, in the private apartments of their dwellings ; on most of those occasions I have seen their women, and they have sometimes been present at the transaction of ordinary business between the minister and myself. The only degradation amongst the Hindoo women with which I am acquainted, is the state of the widow after the death of her husband ; the widow has the hair of her head shaved, and is obliged to do all the menial offices of the family. I have known many Hindoo women, however, in this state, when her chil- dren had not been of age, conducting the business of the family, having the management of the estate belonging to the family, employing agents and attormes at the Mahratta court, and in short, doing every thing in the direction and management of the family which women in similar cir- cumstances in Europe do. 2 Z Before 538 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.Sydeyham, Before you filled the high political situation of resident at Hydrabad, Esq. had you not served with a native corps? — I had. » ^ I Were you not adjutant, and had you not the temporary command of a- native corps ? — I was adjutant for nearly a twelvemonth, and had the temporary command of a native corps for about five or six months. Were you at that time acquainted with the Mindostannee and Persian lansrua^es? — I was. According to the present regulations of the service, are not the regi- mental and general court-martial for the trial of natives composed entirely of native commissioned officers ? — They are composed entirely of. native commissioned officers. Would it be advantageous that all courts-martial for the trial of natives, should be composed partly of European and partly of native commissioned officers? — I certainly think, that many advantages would arise from this plan being adopted : first, because I have always observed that the natives are much better satisfied with any decision proceeding from an European tribunal, than from a tribunal composed entirely of their own countrymen : in many cases, according to the present system, the proceedings of native courts-martial, are almost entirely directed and regulated by an European- officer ; if a regimental court-martial, by an European adjutant of the regiment; if a general court-martial, by an European officer employed as judge advocate. During the period that I was adjutant of a na- tive corps, I found it often necessary to exercise my influence in pre- venting the native members of the court-martial from coming to un- just decisions ; they are mostlv very illiterate, and perfectly unacquainted with the laws of evidence, and their decision is generally founded upon their knowledge of the character of the prisoner rather than upon the evidence regarding the crimes before them. In some cases, where the evidence is by no means sufficient to convict the prisoner, I have asked, what could tempt them to find tSe man guilty, and sentence him to cor- poral punishment ? and I have been answered, It is true, the prisoner is not guilty of the crimes now laid to his charge, but he is a man of bad character, a notorious offender, and a slight punishment would, perhaps, prevent him from committing such crimes as are now laid to his charge : secondly, I think the adoption of this plan would be advantageous in ac- customing the European officers of native corp^, to sit upon regimental courts-martial ; an advantage from which they are debarred by the present regulations of the service; it would make the junior officers of the corps better acquainted with the language, characters, and habits of the men under EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. SSS under tlieir command, and would prepare them to sit upon general Court - Thos.Sy 'enham, martial, to which they are now very often summoned without tne slightest Esq. knowledge or experience of that important branch ot their duty. t ^ * Do you conceive that the Mussulmen are equally contented with the British sovereignly as the Hindoos are? — I should conceive not. Would discontents to any extent among the Mussulmen produce danger to the British sovereignty, as long as the Hindoos are satisfied with the British government ? — I should conceive that considerable danqer would arise from any discontent among a very considerable body of the Mussulmen inhabitants of India ; at the same time, I do not conceive that the danger would proceed so far as the extinction of our power in India, as long as we possess the attachment of the Hindoos. Might not such an union be fatal to the British power? — Certainly; if to considerable discontent among one portion of the inhabitants, an equal discontent amongbt the other portion be added, so that the whole popu- lation of India were disci ntented, I should conceive that such an union would be fatal to the British interest in India. Dj you apprehend that the late melancholy catastrophe at Vellore affords room to apprehenl, that the discontented Mussulmen chiefs might avail themselves of the indiscretion of any persons high in office, on the part of the British government, showing disrespect to their usages, that it might produce similar events as those which took, place at Vellore, and which might have more extensive consequences? — If it were possible for me to conceive that what is termed the indiscretion of the European autho- rities in India, could be carried to so desperate a length as to violate the religion, prejudices, and habits of the Hindoos, I should certainly conceive that the Mussulmen chiefs in India would not have much difficulty in exciting disturbances and insurrections, of which the consequences would be much more extensive than those which occurred some years ago at Vellore. Are you acquainted with the state of the trades and manufactures that are now carried on under British artificers through the means of native la- bourers, in the different presidencies vou are acquainted with ? — I am so far acquainted with this subject as to know, that various branches of manu- facture and handicraft have been considerably improved at the different presidencies, especially at Calcutta, during the last rilteen years : the Euro- pean artisans at the three presidencies build carriages, make furniture, 3 Z 2 plate, 540 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Tins- ^uideiihaiv, plate, and all articles in leather, so good, and so much cheaper than similar Esq. articles from England, that they supply many of the Europeans and native l v ' inhabitants of those presidencies and at the out stations, with articles which were formerly procured from Europe. The iron and steel work has not been carried to that perfection as to supply the place of those articles im- ported from Europe : The coach builder there, is still, I believe, obliged to have all those articles from England. Have not the knowledge and practice of those handicrafts in India, considerably diminished the former import of the same articles from Eu- rope ? — I am not able to speak so much from my own observation, as from what I have heard from the captains of the Company's ships, and fro:n them I have heard, that the import into India of such articles, has dimi- nished considerably within the last few years ; and this diminution is gene- rally ascribed to the degree of perfection with which similar articles are now manufactured in India. Having given an opinion of the ingenuity of the natives, ho'v easily they learn any thing that they are shown, and of their sobriety, and their activity, do you or not think it probable, that those handicraft arts which they have been instructed in by British artificers, will, before a long time passes, be exercised by natives themselves ; instead of being employed as journeymen, that they will set up in trade for themselves? — I think it reasonable to suppose, that in the course of time, those who are now em- ployed as journeymen will soon become masters. [The witness was directed to withdraw. JOHN WOOLMORE, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : John Woolmore, Mr. Grant.] — Were you ever engaged in the coasting or country trade Esq. of India. — I was. At what time ? — From the beginning of 1782 to the latter end of 1787. Were you ever employed in the marine service of the East-India Com- pany ? — Yes. Mention in what capacity ? — Through every gradation of service, from a boy to the command. Since your retirement from that service, have you been concerned in East-India shipping ? — Yes. Have ■^r m EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR*. 541 Have you been concerned in East-India shipping to any great extent r John Woolmorc, — I have been principal owner of seven East-Indiamen. E^q. Daring your employment in the coasting trade of India, had you ample opportunities of exploring the commercial opportunities afforded by the ports and markets ot India in general ? — I think I had. State in what line of trade you were employed in India ? — I had a third of both the ship and cargo, in navigating from Bengal to the coast of Coro- mandeh during the war in 1781, 1782, and 1783; atter that, in a trade from Bengal to the Malabar coast, to Bombay, from Bengal to the Malay coast, west of Sumatra to Batavia, round by Borneo to China, from China back to Bengal, from Bengal through the Straits ot Malacca, to those parts of the Malay coast and China, ultimately back again to Bengal. I have been to the western part of the Archipelago, as tar as to the east end of Java, and then crossed to the south part of Borneo, and from the south ' part i f Borneo along the west coast, crossing again to the Malay Peninsu- la, and then to China. Were you some time in the Company's armed mariner — Never in the Bombay marine ; in the Company's general service from Europe to India, > and back ; but not in the Bombay marine ; during the time I have spoken of, I was the commander of a private ship in India, belonging to myself and other gentlemen. Is that what they call a country ship ? — Yes. During the time that you had the command of that country ship, to- gether with those opportunities which you had while you commanded one of the regular ships in the Company's service, you visited and explored every part of India ? — The greatest part of my visiting them was in the country service ; voyages to India were more direct. The course you have been describing was great part of it while you • commanded a country ship ? — Entirely so. Did this afford you very extensive opportunities of judging of the ge- neral trade of India ? — 1 conceive it did ; of the trade of all those ports to which I navigated, certainly. Did it afford you considerable opportunities of judging of the general temper and habits of the natives? — I think it did, as far as a seafaring man who trades upon that coast is capable of judging. Had 5<12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John ll'oo'morc, Had you considerable intercourse with them m different parts '?— Yes, Esq. I had. _J You are a ship owner now ? — I was a ship owner till within these last three years ; I am not r.ow ; I was principal owner, till the last three years, of seven East-India Company's ships ; I held more than half of each of them. During the time that you were thu-: employed in the marine service of the Company, or captain on your own account, wa; it not your interest to explore almost every port, and embrace every opportunity of pushing European articles into India ? — My object, as an owner of a country ship, and as captain of her, was entirely upon a system of trade for my own private benefit, and that of those with whom I was concerned ; and, as far as my abilities and industry were capable, I certainly took every possible means within my power of ascertaining every kind of article by which I could profit at the ports to which I navigated ; and those which I did not navigate, that I could be well informed of by individuals in a similar trade to myself. State to the Committee what articles of British manufacture you found it possible to vend for the purposes of native consumption ? — I must ob- serve to the Committee a circumstance attaching to myself, that I have no documents, and therefore it is completely from my recollection I speak; for all the documents I had of great consequence to myself, were com- pletely lost by a change ot house, which I did not know for a consider- able time, and could never recover them : The principal articles in the East-India coasting trade to the Eastern Islands, consisted of a small Quantity of iron, a small quantity of steel, 1 may say a general small as- sortment of cutlery ; I think I had a little gold thread for the Malays to work into their cloths, and some few pieces of fancy cloths, merely for experiment ; those I think coloured on both sides, blue and white, and blue and red, or both. During that time, were the natives such as you are now referring to, fully and amply supplied with such European commodities as they might have occasion for ? — They appeared to me not generally to want Euro- pean commodities ; iron, I did not sell the whole which I had, which was a very small quantity ; the finer cutlery I gave away to the superior women, such as scissars and knives and things of that kind, not being ge- nerally saleable ; the common Lascar knives and some brass wire, were at that time the only articles that were generally saleable upon the west coast of EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 543 of Borneo, or the coast of Malay, during the four years I navigated John Wobltn " there ; some of the iron I know I carried to China ; with respect to the E^q. steel, I perfectly recollect the rajah of Succadana, on the western coast <■ ■ y ■ * ' of Borneo, telling me, that the steel of Banjnrmasseen was considerably better than that which came from Europe, and which I had purchased at Bengal; the general carpenters' utensils which are used on the coast ot Malay, are principally or Chinese manufacture. Did it appear to you that there was a capability of increasing the export of Biitish manufactures to those ports, beyond what it was in the power of the ordinary country ships to supply r — Certainly I think not, I do not at this moment, with all the information that I conceive I possess myself, as well as that which I have collected from cotemporaries that have been in that country, who were in the service with me, know any amount of cargo that J could take from this country going to the Eastern Islands, ex- clusive of money, that I could really produce any thing for on-that coast. If now you were about to freight a vessel to India, except monev, you would not adventure any European commodities to those ports ? — If I was going myself to that coast now, from this country, there is not three thousand pouuds worth of articles that I could take there, in my idea, to produce any return whatever, exclusive of money. As far as your experience has gone, was every endeavour made to ex- port every article ot European manufacture to those ports ? — My naviga- tion was from India, every article of European produce that I could possibly conceive could produce me a profit upon those coasts, I certainly did take from that coast; I took many things upon trial, because I had an inclination so to do ; and I had a third of the ship and cargo, the other two thirds were held by two gentlemen, whose constant observation to me was, to try by every means in my power to see what articles of trade could yield profit, whether from India or from Europe. Did you make repeated voyages to those ports ? — I was four years in that trade ; I made four voyages from 1783 to 1787 ; I sailed from' Bengal one year in April, I returned again in January \ the next year I sailed about the same time again, and returned in December; the voyages were aft similar as to their close ; I was more or less employed according to the sale of my cargo on that coast. Of what might your latter cargoes have consisted ?— The last cargo consisted ■ 5>it MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON Tfff.B 'John JVoolmoir, consisted of saltpetre, a very large quantity of opium, say 800 chests, I Esq. think two lacks of rupees in specie, a small quantity of iron, a small quan- tity of steel, some brimstone for making powder, and two thousand pounds worth (out of a cargo of sixty, seventy, or eighty thousand pounds) of as- sorted piece-goods. The production of India ? — -Yes ; India manufactures entirely. •That was an out-line of the cargo ? — That was the great leading feature of the cargo, except some trifling cutlery, as I have observed before. After your first voyage of experiment to those seas, did you find the vend for British manufactures progressively increase, or otherwise? — It rather decreased than otherwise in the articles I am speaking of, iron and steel and cudery, because it did not produce any material profit. Do you know whether other gentlemen made similar experiments in those seas ? — Mr. Brewer, who is secretary of the Bengal government, was a great cotemporary of mine at the latter part of my time, in the trade of the Eastern hlands ; I do not know what his cargoes were ; but I believe very similar to my own ; indeed all cargoes to the Eastern Islands are very similar ; the great article is opium. As far as your knowledge, as well as experience, extended, did it appear to you that any increasing market was open in those seas for British manu- factures, or that the adventures which took place, furnished them with more than enough for their purposes ? — As far as respects myself, the ad- ventures furnished them with more than was taken from me, I do not con- ceive that there was any opening for the general expoit of British manu- factures, as far as cloths go ; I never saw a Malay make use of a woollen ; the few pieces of cloth that I took there, I gave away ; they were not sale- able ; there were no purchasers for any profit, and i presented several to the superior natives with whom I traded; one I remember sending as a present to a Malay rajah, who ordered me off the coast because I did not come and trade with him. Which of the voyages was it that you introduced these pieces of woollen cloth by way of experiment ? — It was the last voyage that I took the woollen cloths. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 545 Do you know whether this introduction induced any further demand John Jl r oo'tn<;rr, for those articles ? — I never heard of any, while 1 was in India. Esq. Did you hear of any during your subsequent situation as commander of a Company's ship, or owner of ships ? — I touched on the Malay coast in an Indian ship, through the Straits of Banca, and part of the island of Banca ; and there I gave some few pieces of keyseymere that I had to two or three Malay girls I happened accidentally to meet with, whom I had known on another part of the coast before, but I did not sell any ; I ad- vanced money for tin, to a Malay trader that was collecting it. Have you reason to think that those pieces of woollen, which you had thus introduced, and given gratuitously for that purpose, had induced any taste or demand for the thing ? — I never heard of any since ; I had not any idea at the time that it would, never having seen them worn ; 1 merely gave them as presents to individuals. You purchased block-tin at Banca ? — I advanced money for tin, to a Malay trader that was collecting it, at the rate of \1 dollars per pecu^ taking the tin to China, selling it, and being paid for my trouble. Does not Banca abound with good tin ? — I should think so ; great plenty has been found there ; most of the tin I have collected on the different coasts of Malay, has originally come from Banca. Supposing yourself a regular merchant in India, and wanting an article of tin, would you send to Banca for it, or obtain it from this country ? — Certainly I should send to Banca. Do you regard the tin of Banca, as being as good as that produced by the mines of this country ? — I am not aware what the Chinese think of nur tin, as compared with the Banca tin. I carried out, I believe, the first tin from Cornwall in an East-India ship to China ; at that time they preferred the Banca tin ; at that time, 1788, it was more malleable than the Corn- wall tin ; it is certainly infinitely cheaper. Looking to the original cost of the article, and to the respective charges of merchandize, is there a material difference in the price ? — I do not exactly know the price of British tin at this moment ; but I knew the price of the tin at Banca at that time very well, and 1 can calculate it at a mo- ment 5 the Banca tin was from forty to fifty-one pounds a ton ; fifty-one pounds I considered a high price ; 1 have bought tin with money at twelve 4 A dollars "v— 546 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Woo'inore, dollars a pecul, at Rhio ; I have exchanged goods for it at the ports of E <]. Rhio, and at the port of Borneo, at Salengur in the Straits of Malacca, at v v ' Trengenna, and on the west coast of Malay : I received tin at those places, after selling my goods generally at from fourteen, never exceeding sixteen dollars a pecul ; I have sold my opium and my piece-goods and have taken in exchange a return of tin . pepper, and gold dusr, at different prices, valuing tin at fifteen and sixteen dollars a pecul ; I have purchased tin specifically with money at twelve dollars a pecul. At those different places ? — No,, not at all those places ; only at Rhio ; at the island of Bintang, the pecul is 133 English pounds and a third, reckoning about thirteen peculs to a ton. About what would English tin have cost you at that time in India ? — I think the price was, when I went to India next after that, from { 70 to £ 75 a ton ; but never having bought any myself, I speak only from a re- collection of the invoice. What would each be per ton ? — I make the Banca £63 per ton, and the English from ^70 to ^£75, that is taking the Banca at the price at which 1 exchanged my goods. What would it be at the money price ? — From £52 to ^£53 per ton. If the East- India Company had not been desirous of exporting British tin, or had no influence or contract so to do, could they not have obtained the article much cheaper at Banca ? — I should suppose they could. Taking money both ways by that difference you have stated r — Yes ; I must observe, though, that the trade in tin at that time with the English was all a smuggling trade, all the tin that Banca produced was engaged by the rajah to the Dutch government, therefore, it was only what he cheated the Duchofin his deliveries that we were enabled to get, and that through a people called Liots ; men who have been on a pilgrimage to Mecca, and who carried on the trade with us, we not dealing directly with the princi- pal ; these people carried on the trade there with both parties ; they were an intermediate party; the quantity consequently depended upon the exer- tions of the Dutch officers, in taking (.are to prevent smuggling. Supposing the British government to become as favoured as the Dutch, have you any doubt of their being enabled to obtain as considerable a quan- tity of tin as they would require ? — 1 ha\ e no doubt that they would obtain a ft EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 517 a very great quantity, but whether it would consist of so much as they re- John Woolmore, quired for their China trade, I cannot say ; 1 could give you an idea of E q. the quantity of tin smuggled in the way 1 have spoken of which British ' v ships carried to China. Is it a place that abounds with tin? — I really cannot tell the quantity that Banca produces ; I have no means of exactly knowing. The Company at present do not carry Banca tin to China ? — They do not, I believe. During the time that you were a commander of one of the Company's ships, taking the adventures of yourself and your officers as well as the general export, at that time, was it perfectly sufficient for the wants of India in respect of East India articles ? — I was a commander specifically for China, of a ship from this country. Did you in any other capacity go from this country to India ? — As an officer 1 went several times to India. Did it appear to you whether or not there was a full and ample supply of European articles, to the extent of what was required ? — I do not think at that period there was. What period do you refer to? — I refer to the years 1766, 1768, 1770, 1778, 1779, and 1780. According to your knowledge and experience, has there been since that period a sufficient supply ? — The only means that I have of knowing, since I quitted the India service, is by being the private agent of the com- manders who had been in my emoloy ; they had for the last five or six years decreased their usual investments, from ,£8,000 to ^£2,000, that would lead me to suppose that India was plentifully supplied. These gentlemen have the advantage of exporting their adventures freight free, have they not ? — Yes, they have. Generally acting as their own supracargoes ? — Yes. Does not it make a material difference in the price of an article, being do. 4 A 2 It free from those charges ? — It must do 548 MrNUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John lVoolmore, Is it a considerable saving ? — As far as the price of freight goes, Esq. certainly. -- v— Notwithstanding that, your commanders and officers, I understand you to say, have not lately found the exporting European goods a profitable speculation ? — The last commander that I had (his ship is now unfortu- nately burnt in Calcutta) had reduced from his first voyage under my patronage, from ^£.8,000 ; I stated in the Committee of the Hou^e of Lords X.2,000 ; but on looking over the accounts, I do not find it to amount to so much as that. Were you understood rightly in supposing that the principal British ma- nufactures that you took to the Eastern Islands in your more recent voyages consisted of coarse cutlery ? — The only European articles of British ma- nufactures was iron (if it was British iron), st^el and a very small quantity of fine cutlery ; certainly the greater quantity was coarse cutlery, con- sisting mostly of Lascar knives, and a very small quantity of wire. Did you find those equal to the demand ? — Perfectly, at the ports that I was at. Looking to the great difference in the price of labour between India and this country, do you think it likely we could manufacture those articles which the natives wear or otherwise consume, cheaper than they do them- selves?— I really do not know; the people in the Eastern Islands prefer the cloths manufactured by themselves; I speak of the Malays, they wear their own cloths in preference ; they do wear our coarse cloths that are made in India, but in no great quantity; I can oniy speak as to the rela- tive proportion of my own cargo ; in a cargo of 70 or .£.80,000. consist- ing of opium, money and piece-goods, the piece-goods were only to the amount of .£.2,000. And they were of India manufacture ? — Entirely ; consisting of coarse cloths of various kinds; one part I know were handkerchiefs that the Malays wear round their heads, coarse white cloths that the women wear as badjees, to support their necks ; but their principal clothing is their own manufacture in their different islands ; and it is of a very strong texture. Such articles as they do wear, do you apprehend that we could manu- facture them, and send them out as cheap as they obtain them from their own, or from Indian manufacture ? — They could obtain them I believe as cheap, EAST-INDTA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 549 cheap, but they could not obtain them so good, as far as abstract price JohnWoehnorCy goes ; but their preference is to their own cloths over our Indian cloths ; Esq. it is only thecheapness of our Indian cloths that induces them to take them v v- ' at all ; how far there is a difference in the price of the Indian cloths and our cloths, 1 cannot tell. Supposing some degree of illicit trade to have been carried on by officers of the Company's ships, what effect do you apprehend that paying them stipends instead of allowing them to trade, would have upon the revenue? — That is a question I have never looked at ; but as far a^ the idea strikes me at this moment, if a man is inclined to smuggle, I do not conceive an alteration in the mode of remunerating him would prevent it. I am looking to remuneration being in proportion to his advantages now ; the only practical fact that I can bring to my recollection as to the operation it Would have upon men's minds, is this : I think the East India Company were in the habit of paying their commanders and officers of their packets, instead of permitting them to trade ; and I have some faint idea in my mind, that a captain of one of their packets was dismissed for trading against that regulation ; it was not smuggling homeward, it was trading outward. He traded against their regulation r — Yes, that they paid for not trading ; a circumstance happened to myself the last voyage to the coast of Malay. My officers were paid very liberally, in lieu of having any trade whatever ; I was extremely teased, and I did allow them some small adventures in articles that I called chandler's shop articles, that I did not exactly trade in myself; yet they exceeded my allowance so greatly, that they were completely unsaleable. I had myself, never one iota of cargo distinct from the concern in which I was. Notwithstanding you allowed your officers stipends, upon condition they should not trade, you found it impossible to prevent it ?— Certainly I found it impossible to prevent their getting the things on board ; but I completely- prevented their getting them on shore, without my knowledge ; nor could they be sold, nor were they sold on the coast of Malay, there not being a vent tor the quantity they had; they were afterwards exchanged by myself at China to the chief officers of an Europe ship, for European articles to carry to Bengal ; for, as I dismissed the men, I did not choose to punish them beyond it. The officers in the Company's maritime service are universally more or less traders, are they not ? — They are, I consider. Every youth I have brought up in the Company'sservice from a boy, I have endeavoured to instil 550 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Woolmore, ' nst '' ' nto him *hM his object in the India service is principally trade; and E S q I have never sent a youth under my patronage to sea in his first voyage, v i that 1 have not supplied him with from forty to fifty pounds of trifling European articles, and given him instructions how to conduct himself with them, and to change them at the intermediate port, so as to give him ideas of trade,. Do you attribute any great proportion of the export trade to India to the zeal and interest with which commanders and officers have thus prose- cuted their private adventures r — I think that the officers and commanders of East Indiamen carry out as many goods as they possibly conceive there is a market for. Has that been, looking to the last ten or twelve years, a considerable portion of the exports to India ? — I really do not know what proportion it has borne to the general exports to India. Do you believe it to be considerable ? — The tonnage is very consider- able ; and the number of ships is very considerably increased. Supposing that an officer instead of having his attention employed about his own mercantile adventure had his capital disengaged, do you think it is likely that his means or inclination to smuggle would be les- sened thereby ? — I should not think his means would be, certainly. If his attention was undivided, and his capital disengaged, would not his means and his motives for smuggling be, in your opinion, greater?— His means might be greater, perhaps, but I am looking at smuggling in a very different point of view, perhaps, from that in which the counsel does : I look upon a man in the command of an East Indiaman that smug- gles, as either a madman, or a very distressed man, who only would re- lieve himself as a gambler would, by the throwing of the die ; such is the idea I have of a captain smuggling ; and therefore, if the penalties at- tached to their situation, as I look at it now, I do not see how a different mode of remunerating them would alter the propensity to smuggling ; I do not think that the officers can smuggle in any material degree to af- fect the revenue, without the captain either being concerned in it, or giving permission to do it ; and, as I said before, I should think the com- mander of an Indiaman either a madman or an extremely distressed man ; and it is only in those cases, I believe, that they smuggle at all. Paying a stipend instead of trading, would make no difference in your opinion as to the safety of the revenue ? — Not in my idea. You EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 551 You have entirely ceased being a ship owner ?— Yes. J olm Woohiore Esq. Nor are you a merchant now ? — No. v Have you any personal interest whatever, whether the trade to India is open or not ? — I do not think there is an individual in this country who has less interest in the opening of the trade than I have, as far as I can judge of my own feelings. (Examined by the Committee.) Have you any interest in the trade continuing as it is at present ? — I have no interest in the Company beyond the stock that I possess in it as a private individual ; I believe there is not an individual existing who has less interest in the trade one way or another ; I am not a ship-owner or a merchant ; I do not intend to be while the shipping is carried on as it is ; if it were otherwise, I might be ; but I cannot make common interest of my money, and therefore 1 live upon what I have got. Having mentioned that your purchases of tin to the eastward were con- fined to such quantities as the raj h would cheat the Dutch government of in their contracts, it is presumed the Committee is to infer that the Dutch government made a monopoly of the tin belonging to the rajahs under their influence ? — As much as ever they could. Have you heard that this monopoly is continued by the English govern- ment ? — No> I have not heard any thing upon the subject, good, bad or injiiferent. Have you ever been at Palambang ? — I have been at the mouth of Pa- lambang river, but never up at Palambang itself. Do you know whether the rajah of that place had a contract with the Dutch government tor the supply of tin ? — I have understood he had, and a part of the tin I got at Rhio, I have great reason to believe, came from Palambang. Have you heard that the rajah of Palambang wished to decline continu- ing this contract for tin with the English government ? — Since we had possession of Batavia I have not read one iota about it ; it has not been the subject of conversation with me. Haye S52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Join Woclmnre, Have you heard of the rajah of Palambang's capital having been de- E^q. stroyed ? — I have not. -v~ Have you heard that eastern tin has become very scarce of late, and consequently that the price has risen considerably ? — I have not ; 1 have heard nothing, in fact, on the subject. Is it not usual for the commanders and officers of the Company's ships to sell their goods by the invoice in India ? — When I was in the service, there were two modes of selling investments: the one was by invoice, the other by retail, and a third sometimes by public auction. In framing the invoices upon which the investments are disposed of, is it usual to deduct the drawbacks, or to make allowance for discounts ?- — I have heard of .salt water invoices (for that is the term) being made j I de- clare before this Committee, that I never in my life did such a thing. Are not such practices usual? — I have heard. of such things, but I have always understood and thought that they would carry with them their own punishment ; because the persons who are in the habit. of purchasing our investments in India are, perfectly well acquainted with the general prices of such articles in this country ; I have been shown in this country, when I was commander of an Indianian, manufactures deteriorated here with the same appearance at a cheaper price, but I .never took such a thing, because I never considered it my interest to do so. Is it not usual for the commanders and officers to make purchases of goods for their investments here, at a credit of one year and sometimes two? — Yes, I believe it is; as to the individuals with whose concerns I ■ have had the management, I have never known them to exceed eighteen months credit. Does not that mode of purchase make a most material difference in the price of the articles ? — Theie.are invariably different prices ; when I pur- chase lead for money, or any article for money, there is a specific, price upon it ; if I purchase it at six months credit, there is a specific price ; this was the case when I was in the habit of trade ; a twelvemonth's credit was at a different price ; . I remember, for instance, lead that I pur- chased was 1.8 cl. per cwt. more from the credit of, I think, nine months or six months than the ready-money price ; the credit price always bore a greater proportion of interest than the real interest of the money. No EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 555 No deduction is made from the invoice in such cases whether the goods Jw* '"° moe, arc purchased at a credit of from twelve to eighteen months, is there r — -Lsq I can only answer that question by what I have done myselt, not know- v ing how ethers transact their business ; when I sold by the invoice to a merchant, I put every thing before him as it stood, and he gave me 100 < i cent, or 20, or 30, or 40; in one instance the charges were higher than the merchants thought they should have been ; and they deducted so much, in consequence ; they were higher perhaps from my inattention, or the ex- iction of the individuals with whom I dealt. Have you ever made any deduction, or is it usual to make any, from the invoice, on the score of such increased price, in consequence of the 1 rtg credit ? — I can only answer the question as I have done personally, I really do not know what others have done ; when I sold by invoice, I have bona fide put before the persons who purchased it, who were Wil- liams and Tavlor at Bengal, when I was there, exactly the invoices as they were sent to me. Is it usual to make any deduction on the score of interest from the in- creased price, in consequence of the goods being purchased at a credit, instead of being paid tor in ready money? — I can only answer that per- sonally, not knowing what other persons have done ; in the early stages, my mode of purchasing the goods, was to give the merchant half credit and half money ; the latter part of my transactions as a captain, I had money tor every purpose, and every individual thing was purchased by money, consequently, so far the investments that I sold at China do not apply to the question, because they were not sold by invoice; my in- vestments as an officer, to which it applies personally, I declare most sa- credly, the whole case appeared in my books ; the bills of parcels from the individuals were put before them, with every iota of discount and charge of merchandize, and every expense that took place ; I never conceived it possible that I could gain any thing by any other mode ; because I consi- dered, from the early part of my life, that the most direct and honourable and lucrative mode was to be explicit upon all occasions. Then is the Committee to understand, that the advance of 100 per cent, which you have mentioned upon your invoice, or whatever it might be, was calculated upon the rates charged by the persons who sold you the goods here r — I really do not recollect at this moment, whether it was 100 per cent, that I received, or 120, there being some deduction for the charge of merchandize ; I have mentioned my agreement; for my invest- ment was with the gentlemen at 120 per cent, or 100 per cent. I laid my 4 B invoice 554 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JoJiti Woolmore, invoice book before them, and whether it was upon the gross amount, or E q. whether it was upon the abstract, taking the charges and discounts from * v ' it or not, I cannot possibly at this moment say. Do you know what discount is usually allowed for paying in ready mo- ney, or what is the difference in price between the ready money rate, and £oods purchased at a credit of 12 or 18 months ? — I reallv do not know ; but at the time that 1 was a merchant, I found, as I mentioned before, eighteen pence per cvvt. difference in the purchase of lead that I calcu- lated to bear a proportion of 7f per cent, to five ; that if I took credit, I paid 7^ per cent, instead of five tor that credit; rh.it I paid, upon 'the average, 2-| per cent, depending upon the time of credit, and a:> the credit time increases, so the credit price, I conceive, would increase also : I have heard of discounts to the amount dt 10 per cent, being allowed by ship- builders to ship-owners, but I never met with such a thing in my life; never in any instance did I get it; the individuals never felt themselves warranted in the prices that they have charged me, in allowii-g me to do it ; I have certainly tried it, saying I have heard of such things, but I never had it allowed. Do you, In speaking of salt-water invoices, allude to those invoices which have not the discount and drawback deducted from them, or to in- voices made out at false prices? — The true character, I think, of a salt- water invoice is, that in which a greater price is charged lor the goods than was actually paid for the goods. Without its appearing upon the invoice ? — Of course; I conceive it to be the copy ot an invoice with additional prices put to it, maue at sea. Do you not know that it is the practice for the Company bo to make out their invoices of exports, by adding a 10 per cent, to their invoices, which does not appear ? — I never heard of such a thing in all my lite, nor 1 never heard it surmised; it is the first instance in which I ever heard of such a thing. Have you ever had occasion to settle with the honourable Company, either through their Government abroad, or their Directors at home, for &hort deliveries of goods?— I have certainly in boih cases, but in a very small degree ; indeed I never looked to the invoice, the officers in the de- partment, to which the goods applied, gave mean account of them, with a charge of thirty per cent. (I think that is our agreement as carriers^ upon that price, whatever price they charged me; I had so little idea of there being- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 555 being any adition beyond the real price they paid for them, that I never JohnJf'oohnorc, looked to it ; I know, in China, that their bale goods have generally Esq. passed from the ships, and from myself, when the supracargoes have hot » y ' been at Canton, to the Chine-e merchants, without any inspection or look whatever : I have delivered .cargoes personally in China of my own, with- out either weight or measure, merely as 1 had received them, upon the faith pf having, done so; the pieces uf lead, of course, are numbered, but their bale goods I have delivered myself to the merchants respectively, according to their order, without any examination whatever, except as to appearance, whether they were damp or wet. What is the alteration that took place in the management of the Com- pany's shipping, which detenu tied you to give up all connection with it ? — The cheapness of the freight, and the mode in which they are rincipally supported ; namely, 1 consider them owned chiefly by the patronage. What do you mean by owned chiefly by the patronage ?— The com- petition lias brought freights so very low, that in respect to the individual* who have been brought up in the service, who are looking to commands, their friends are generally obliged to get a certain number of owners to enable themselves to be employed ; as for instance, myself, if I had a youth that I wished to get the command of an Indiaman for, instead of giving him 5 or JL 6000. and allowing him to run about, I sacrifice that money in tendering a cheap ship to the East India Company, specifically for the patronage of that command. Are you speaking of the extra ships now, or of ships generally r — Of the ships in the general regular service. Is the Committee to understand that, in point of fact, the rate of freight paid by the East India Company has been cheaper than could be afforded by the ship owner, with a reasonable and proper view to his own profit? — Certainly ; I consider the abstract point of freight of the East India Company, both in the ir extra ships and in their regular ships, under the circumstances in which they are sailed, as cheaper than any private individual can get freight, under similar circumstances. Are you speaking here generally, as to the freight of a ship goip,g to India, or the freight of a ship going under the particular circumstances attaching to all ships sailed tinder the East India Company; — If 1 com- prehend the question, I mean to say, that I could not send a ship to 4 B 2 sea 556 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JohnWoolmore, sea under the same circumstances as the East fndia Company do, by Esq. myself, so cheaply as the East India Company get their freight. — v- What are those circumstances ?— Goodness of ship, goodness of outfit, being properly commanded, officered, and manned. Are those the only circumstances to which you allude ? — I do not know any others. Any thing as to the nature of the voyage or the delay, sailing at pro- per times, and soon ? — 1 look exactly to the same circumstances applying ill both cases; but if the questions have a reference to my examination four years ago, the circumstances are not exactly in point at this moment, as the/ were then ; the East India Company, at that time, did not appear to me to give a facility to the movements of extra ships which they nave done since. Explain the difference of the circumstances to which you are now alluding between the present period and that? — The Company at that time seemed to divert the ships that they had in the extra employ, out of the implied condition under which I thought I built them ; that is, instead of being sent direct, they were sent circuitously upon services that did not appear to me exactly consistent with the implied ideas that I had set out with them, that is, they were diverted on several occasions from that immediate carrying service, directly backwards and forwards, which, I think, they certainly have since remedied ; but, at that time, I did not think any British ship owner, except under similar circumstances to myself, could have supplied ships cheaper than I supplied them ; I was not looking to profit as a ship owner, I was looking not to the exceeding live per cent, for my money, I was looking to great pleasure in active industry, it affording as much delight tome to manage ships, and to have to do with them, as any fox-hunter can havem the chae; so far I think it impossible for an individual to have given the Company cheaper ships for extra ships, than I had given under those circumstances; I cannot give them now from circumstances being different ; I cannot afford so much below the five per cent.; I cannot find a mode of making any interest whatever for my money, and I cannot exist without it. Supposing th.- trade to India to have been opened to all merchants with a license to trade upon their own account, between this country and our settlements in India, what would have been the terms in the rate of freight at which, as an individual merchant, you could have fitted out a ship, and EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 557 and the rate of freight at which you have supplied ships to the Fast India JohnWoolmorc Company ? — I do not see how it was possible for me, as a ship owner, to Esq have fitted out any ships, strictly speaking, cheaper, under similar cir- l y * cumstances, than I did. Is not their outfit superfluous ; might not private merchants go with ships less expensive? — As a private merchant I might have carried those ships out in a certain degree cheaper than I could through the regulations of the East India Company : 1 do not think the rate of freight would have been cheaper than that at which I supplied the ships, because I supplied them under an implied idea, that that system would have been carried into execution : when I am speaking of the expense attached to those ships arising out of the system, there were some which I did not expect would have been, and which I had been, and the persons with whom 1 was connected in bringing forward those ships, had been given to understand should not be so applied ; I conceived that when an extra "hip, such as those, was going directly to India, making the voyage in" ten or twelve months, it was not necessary for that ship to go into a dock, to be pulled to pieces t> be examined for defects which never could exist, if she was a good ship at first, and which I call unnecessary : but it did not app y in my case, because I tendered those ships under the implied idea that they would be superior West Indiamcn, that they would not have been pulled to pieces, having in u.y head exactly the plan that they would have gone out, and made a certain number of voyages in a specific time, that they would have come home at that time ; that they would not have been pulled to pieces, though 1 would have looked at them : in the room of which they were put into dock, their masts were taken out, and they were stripped, and an expense incurred of 2 or ^3000. for what 1 did conceive no material bene t, under such circumstances that would not have applied to have reduced the freight, because I tendered the ship under that implied idea. The rate of freight at which you supplied the East India Company with the extra shipping in which you were concerned, was not greater- than it would have been, if as an individual merchant, you had been fitting ont a ship good enough to go to India and lack again ? — 'I he body of the ship, the principal part of the ship, would have been exactly the same, the masts and rigging would have been the same, the anchors and cables would have been as good ; for 1 hold it not economical to save in those respects ; I do not think she would have been a bit worse, t would only have been altered in respect of docking and repairing when I con- sidered necessary, Then. 558 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John J J ool more, Th< n, for the purposes of mere trade to India and back again, the Esq. ships you supplied were, in your judgment, supplied to tfce Company at 1 y ' as cheap ;i rate as could have been afiorded iiy an individual embarking in a similar trade? — I believe fully so. Were the Company's regu'ations, as to the ship's sailing, such as you expected they should have be-n ? — Not exactly; there were some parti- cular personal hardships that J felt at that time: the first ship that I had was the Sir William Benstey'; I wished to have got her out in time to have saved the ship falling in with the rtftrth cast monsoon ; she was diverted from her purpose, by being oidercd to the Cape, pit er to carry soldiers there, or to carry soldiers fro n the Cape, I am not clear which, at tliis distance of time, which at ihat period prevented her getting, as 1 conceived she would, to Bengal during the continuance of the south west monsoon, an J, I believe, it prevented her getting there by- five or six weeks so early as she should have done; this was, con- sequently, an additional expense of wages and provisions upon me. My evidence before the Committee, four years ago, was per fee ly correct, and I should wish that it be taken in all cases in which it may deyiate from this. In your examination before the Committee, in 18CK), in answer to a question, '•' Supposing you, as a merchant or a ship owner, looking to 3'our own interest and your own profit only, and trading to and from India, would you employ a ship, which you have described as a superior West Indiarrian, or would you build, an i employ ships like the extra ships of the East India Company," you said, " The superior class of West Ihdiamen, and the East India Company's extra ships, I consider to be the same as to the ship ; but the extravagant outSt attached to those ships, their being f'ocked when they come home, frequently unnecess rily, in my opinion, is one of the great causes of the expense cf their freight, indeed it is the principal cause of it ; and I consider that the expense of height of those ships is occasioned, first, by the foregoing causes; secondly, by the attachment to r . gulation ; and. thirdly, by the cargoes in India not being p opcrly compressed, so as that they can bring a sufficiency of tonnage home ;" bow do you reconcile the expression of " extravagant outfit" with your evidence to-day? — i consider t hat the East Incha Company's extra shipping had, at that time, more cables than perhaps were necessary, a quantity of sails more than was necessary, and a quantity of provisions, by their regulations, applying to six months, or seven or eight nfohtlis, which I did notconceive necessary be end r?ve or six, depending upon the season of the year in wldeh she was going; they apply the quantities of provisions in all casts the same, v.he her a man EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. Si.9 man goes out with a passage of three months to India, or with a JohnWoolniart', passage of six, the quantities are obliged, by the Company's regulations, Esq. to be the same ; that I apply to extravagant outfits, and they amount * y- ' to an enormous sum of money when put together. I do not mean to go exactly into the whole of these particulars, though the fundamental part would be the same. Are those regulations now what they were when you gave this evi- dence, four years ago? — They were when 1 quit ed the situation of ma- naging owner of shipping ; 1 do not know whether they are now, but I believe they are; 1 never heard of any alteration. A re the docking regulations the same? — I believe they are. Do you not consider all those circumstances as having a tendency to enhance the expence of a private ship fitted out, without regard to those regulations? — There is no doubt it enhances it. o What do you apprehend, adverting to alt those regulations, would be the difference that they would make in the freight between a ship bound by those regulations, and a ship going on your own account ? — I con- sider the difference would arise between that that I should make as a mercantile man and that that J made for my pleasure; as a mercantile man,, that 1 should make my concern from eight to ten per cent.; I tendered these ships with a view to making five per cent ; it would make a difference perhaps of three pounds per ton. Supposing you had been to tender a ship bound by the regulations, and a ship not bound, what difference should you make ? — 1 sh uld make about 3/. per ton difference between the two cases ; as a general ship owner, I should not have done this ; but 1 tendered my ship as low us I could from particular circumstances. Those regulations having continued the same, what is the alteration which has taken place within these last four years, that makes you no longer able to tender ships on the same Freight? — Ships are tendered cheaper now than they were at that day ; tin: In ights of the Comp.ny are cheaper than they were four years ago ; and the expences i conceive o be higher. t ° From what circumstance is the .price higher ? — ft arises .generally : I built those ships at lb/, per ton, one of them, and the other some- what 560 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JohnWmlmore, what more ; I built a West Indiaman for a relation of my own, two or Esq. three years ago which cost me 111. per ton as a West Indiaman. v ^ i Putting aside the motives which induce the owners to make a tender, Is tlic rate of freight paid by the Company to the extra ship, higher or lower than can be afforded by the individual merchant, if trading on his own separate account? — I think lower in the abstract point of freight ; but the case, in which I believe the simple question applied, with some elucidation to it, in my examination four years ago, was this circum- stance ; that it was not the abstract price of freight that I conceived the merchant to be so particularly interested in ; whether it was 1 /. or 2/. per ton dearer or not, but having it in his power to do as he pleased, and to sail when he pleased ; a man sailing earlier and getting 50 /. per cent, upon his goods, in comparison with coming a month aftervvaids, and having only 10/. percent., would more than counterbalance the difference in the price of freight. Supposing the ships were paid at the rate you have mentioned by the East India Company, to sail at convenient times for the purposes of the merchant, could that merchant export his goods to India at a cheaper rate than that which the Company now provide, taking all circumstances together ? — I do not think they could, generally speaking: the objection upon my mind is always this ; that wherever a merchant has it not in Lis power to fill his own ship, and socontroul her, that in all cases of hired tonnage, the East India Company's extra tonnage would be cheaper to him ; 1 mean the merchant and manufacturer, who is ex- porting fifty tons, ten tons, forty tons, who cannot fill a ship and con- jtroiil her himself; if the East india Company carry on the system that they have done latterly, sending them regularly in their seasons, giving the facilities they .have done, it would be the cheapest freight, and I think the most correct altogether, that a manufacturer or a merchant of this country could have to export his goods to India; wherever an individual can load his own ship, and controul her, I mean to state that there is a difference; I do not look upon the abstract price of freight to be comparable to the other advantages. The only difference you mean to point out, is, where an individual can supply the entire cargo for a whole ship ? — Where he can have the controul of her. To what, in your opinion, is to be attributed the unwillingness of the private merchants to avail themselves of the freight offered them by the Com- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 56" 1 Company, upon terms so much under what they could supply them- Jolmlt'oolmore selves at ? — I really cannot tell what has been the cause of the nwv- ].;.-, , chants not doing it ; the only cause I can imagine, is merely that v _, > the individual has not the power of sending it when and how he pleases; in point of abstract freight, it is lower; but ! really do not know the fact, that the merchants were unwilling to avail themselves of the freight offered them by the Company. Have you ever heard of such unwillingness, and of comnl.iints brine; made ? — ! have lieard of complaints four or five year ago, l>v mv busi- ness leading me into the office for the shipping department ; ; hue heard men making a great noise, and complaining that they could not get freight ; but 1 have not heard of it these four or five years ; i did not know that there was any difficulty. Have you never heard of any complaints being made against the sys- tem of the extra shipping ? — I never heard any complaints but what I have heard individuals make four or five years ago : complaints that they could not get the ships away when they pleased, but I have not heard that this last four or five years. Your habits have not been to go to the office the last three or four years ?— My habits have been not to go there, and the Company's extra shipping have been more attended to than they were at that time, there- fore I did not conceive there was a case of the kind existing , a country captain, a contemporary of mine, whom I fell in accidentally ivith the other day, a fortnight or three weeks ago, said he had just come from India, that he was going out again, but that he could not get private freight. Upon an Indian built ship ? — Yes ; it was Captain Henderson ; I do not know the ship's name. Did he mention the cause why he could not get freight? — He said that there was no freight ; that nobody offered to give him freights that he put up for freight, but that no body offered it, and that he should lie over for six or seven months in consequence of it. . Having alluded to a different system being introduced within th" last three or four years, with regard to the extra shipping, do you allude to their more regular di patch from this country and from India at stated periods? — 1 allude to their more regular dispatch, and their not 4 C being? 562 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JohnJf'uolmorc, being diverted to any other purposes : there appears to me to have ■t.sq. been lately a great number of them-, to what there were, and none v Y ' of them going in the months of July or September, but going in the first dispatch of December, which was not the case at the time I allude to ; they have gone in proportionable numbers in the months of December, January, February, March, and April ; i stated a case in point in my former examination ; i had a ship lay at home from July to the month of May. before she went out again, and they have appeared lately to arrive regularly from India with the other ships; how they have been dispatched 1 cannot say. Are you not aware of many of the extra ships having been employed upon the iatc expeditions against the Mauritius and Java, and that some of them were detained upon those services in India, for a period of nearly two years ? — Yes, there were some of them, one in particular that I knew of, the Huddart, was detained. Do you consider that this can be called the regular dispatch of an extra ship from India to this country, for the purpose of the trade of the pri- vate merchants ? — I hardly know how to answer that question, without saying, that 1 should have conceived that the government of India had no freight to send those ships home with ; I conceive circumstances in India may apply similar to those here, that the East-India Company, in their extra ships, frequently send part of their own cargoes to fill up the ships to dispatch them, when there is not private trade to fill them. It hap- pened in the instance of my own ship, that the Company put in parts of cargoes and stores, and different things of their own, to dispatch a ship only partly loaded with private freight ; the Huddart was employed, but whether it was from that cause I cannot tell ; I have known water put into the hold of a ship, in consequence of the Company themselves not having full cargoes to dispatch her home, which may have been the case at this time. Have not you heard of several India built ships having brought home cargoes lately, and which sailed from India during and about the same time that the Huddart did, and those ships to which you have just alluded? — I know that since the Huddart went out, country ships have arrived with cargoes. Do you therefore consider that there could have been any want of freight in India for the extra ships, at the time that you allude tor — Yes, I do, because I conceive those country ships to have been loaded homej., EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 5G;{ home, upon a similar system, which I apply to an individual of this John IVoolmore, country who can load his own ship ; and therefore the case does not ex- Esq, actly apply to freight that may be applied for through the East-India v v ' Company's shipping. Are you not aware that the Company's government in India, decline granting permission to India built ships to come to this country with cargoes, when they have extra ships at the presidencies ready to receive those goods ? — I did not know that they did do so; the impression upon my mind has always been, that since Lord Wellesley's plan of allowing the merchants to export their own goods home in country ships, that has been constantly resorted to in similar circumstances. Have you ever heard of an instance of one of the Company's govern- ments in India compelling a private merchant to find a cargo for an extra ship, before they would permit him to send home one of his own ships with a cargo on his own account ? — I never heard of such a circumstance ; 1 have always considered that my Lord Wellesley's system had been in operation. Inform the Committee about what quantity of tin means were found to smuggle from Banca, while it lay under the Dutch coercion ? — I should think the last year, that I had an opportunity of forming any judgment, nearly 500 tons. Can you give any probable opinion of what might be the quantity which might be got from Banca, the Dutch coercion being removed ? — Looking at .what the Dutch ships brought to China, with what the country ships in the trade in which I was, and the Chinese junks, which collected it from the same source, I should think that there went to China alto- gether about twelve, thirteen, or fourteen hundred tons of tin from the different sources ; and I should think the greater quantity came from Palambang and Banca : there are places in which small quantities of tin on the Malay coast are got, which do not come from Banca, called Perhaing. What quantity do you conceive might be now obtained from Banca ? — I can form an opinion only from what the Chinese junks collected, what we collected, and what the Dutch government collected ; which may bu from 1,000 to 1,200 tons, or more. Are you acquainted with the fact, whether copper may not be got 4 C 2 frous 66* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JohnWoolmore, from Japan cheaper than it can be imported from England ? — I really do E-iO. not know; I know nothing of the Japan trade; I have seen Japan cop- v v > per, but I do not know any thing about its price. Are you acquainted with thestate of the manufactures by British ar- tificers, through native labourers, at the different presidencies ? — Gene- rally, I am not ; I know some little of them. From your knowledge of the Chinese seas, do you or do you not think that cargoes of tea may be got through Chinese junks, if any considerable number of vessels from Great Britain go into those seas ? — I think any quantity of teas might be got in any part of the Eastern Islands, pro- vided the individual merchants from this country sent orders to agents that are in China ; or through any agent that he may send orders to, he may get teas in Chinese junks down to any part of the Malay coast. Smuggled ? — No, taken in as a regular cargo by the Chinese junks. Might not establishments proper for preparing such cargoes be made in safe places in those seas, if the parties were so disposed? — I do not know what places are referred to, tea may be had through country ships from China. If numerous vessels of 350 tons be admitted into those seas, and if disappointments should occur to the commanders of those vessels, do you or do you not think it possible that amongst the number of vessels that go there, sonic might endeavour to execute such an enterprize, as making establish merits in some parts of those seas for the purpose of procuring tea, there being no controul of revenue establishment in those seas? — I hardlv think they could form any such establishments there without tire knowledge or' the- government in India or of the supracargoes in China. What controul can be had overships going to places where there isnocon- troul ? — I conceive our navy has the complete controul of those seas while wehaveBatavia,an of dispatching ships obtained ? — No. Esq. i ^ i As you have stated that considerable delays used to take place in the dispatch of the extra ships, are you aware that this arose from political purposes and had in view great national advantages ? — I really do not know. Can you state what is the rate per ton now paid on the regular ships of the East India Company ? — I cannot from my own knowledge at this moment ; I have a general idea upon the regular China ships, I should think about five or six and thirty pounds a ton. Including every charge? — There are different modes in which the freight is paid, some including insurance and some not including in- surance. What are the rates contained in the printed accounts annexed to the third or fourth report of the Select Committee ? — [really cannot speak to my own knowledge, not having ships now; but according to the idea I have collected, not having seen the printed accounts, I should think, al- lowing the peace freight to be about jC\6, or „£l6 10s. per ton, the con- tingencies allowed for the East-India Company are about ,£18, that is .£34, or ,£'34. 10s. that is exclusive of the allowance for extra* wages, what is called allowance for returning Lascars, and for a part of the in- surance: I cannot speak positively, but I should think it is about that, I speak of the China ships ; for the China ships, for the regular class of Bengal ships I should add J_3 per ton, or £,2, ]0s. per ton more ; I think there is that difference in their price in the peace freight. In the account alluded to, the freight is stated on the average at up- wards of _f 40 per ton ; do not you know that it would amount at least to that sum, including all the charges that you have omitted in your former answer? — I should think it would. I can give a general idea ; I should think it wouid come to about four pounds a ton in addition ; the last ship I had in the Company's service, a regular ship for Bengii!. came to Ji 12 a ton, I think, including the insurance. Can you state what is the rate of freight upon the extra shipping, cal- culated upon similar principles ?— I can only judge from recollection of what I saw stuck up at the coffee-house ; as to the rates oi' freight, I think $66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE John Woo'more, think the extra ships were tendered at from <£-2Q for the whole, up to Esq. two and three and thirty ; I think the last tenders were as low as twenty - <. -, i six, and that the Company did not take any higher than twenty-nine on the last occasion ; and that the occasion before, they went as high as thirty-two. Have they ever been as high as thirty-four to your knowledge?— Oh yes; above that ; five or six and thirty, but my own were much less at that time ; the last regular ship i had was from two-and-forty to three - and-forty ; it did not exceed three-and-forty, including the whole of the allowances made for extra wages, war insurance, and the usual allowance for Lascars, which the Company take upon themselves. Do you know that private merchants can send their ships to sea for an Indian voyage, fitted in such a way as they deem perfectly safe, for about eighteen or twenty pounds per ton, at present ? — No, J do not; I should not think it possible, consistently with my ideas of propriety of sailing ; I can only speak to that. Not from any port in this kingdom ? — I should think not, according to my ideas of the price of building, taking the question to relate to a voy- age to India and back again. The voyage alluded to, is such as you have described in a former part of your evidence, of the probable duration of about twelve or thir- teen months ? — I should not think, consistently with my ideas of the propriety of fitting, and the substantiality of a ship going to India, that there is any port in the kingdom that could really send a ship to sea, with the present prices of building and stores, for that sum. Have you ever been employed in building or fitting out ships at any other port, except that of India ? — No, 1 have not. I bought a Liver- pool ship once, but J have had no experience of the outfit of ships at the general ports of the kingdom : I only judge from the prices which I have inquired of, respecting cordage in particular, and I did not find the prices at South Shields at that time, at Liverpool, and 1 think I applied at Greenock, were such as would warrant my saying that I thought 1 could fit out a ship so cheap; it is only by that comparison I can judge. I was in difficulty to get cordage in London, 1 wrote to Shields ; 1 had, dur ng my employment of ships, a great quantity of cordage from South Shields, from Mr. Walker : the prices, after being delivered to me in London, and EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. B67 and the difference of prices here, I think amounted to two or three pounds John Woolmore, a ton, not more ; that to an 8uO-ton ship, would be «£l50. Esq. Then the Committee is to understand you have no practical knowledge of the expenses of building and fitting out ships at the out-ports? — None. I since recollect building a ship at Ipswich, at about j[-2. 10s. cheaper than London. When you commanded a country ship in Tndia, at what rate per ton could you have tendered that ship to government for a voyage to Europe and back again ? — Upon my word, 1 cannot tell at this moment what I could have tendered her for: in the first place, I should not have ten- dered the ship 1 had for any such object. Can you state what the Transport Board pay for the transports taken up for His Majesty's service? — Only from the public papers that I see; the last advertisement, I think I saw, was, that the Transport Board was ready to give 25 s. per ton per month. Are those ships as well fitted for sea as they ought to be ? — If I may judge from having been in the Transport service in the American war for three years, I should say certainly not, compared with the fitting I should actually give them to go to India with. Do they not constantly perform voyages to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope, ships taken up at this rate ? — I believe there were trans- ports sent out, but I do not know how far the transports have been to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope. Do not His Majesty's government send out transports, not only to the Cape, but to the Mauritius, and to Ceylon ? — I have not known of any ; it is probable they may. Have you not heard of any sent out to carry stores to the navy ? — • I have seen store ships announced to be going out to the Cape, and to the Mauritius ; but whether they were hired transports, or men of war fitted for that purpose, i cannot say. You say those transports have been tendered to government at the rate of 2bs. per month, per ton ; supposing a voyage to be performed to India, and back again, in the course of twelve months, what would this average for the whole voyage? — if the ship was of 1,000 tons she would earn ,£12,5004 563 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE , John lVoolmore, jCl 2,500. a year; the price she earns must depend upon her rated ton- nage. How much will that average per ton for the whole voyage, supposing it to be for twelve months, and no longer ? — For a shij) of 500 tons, about ^lS. per ton. Do you not suppose that those ships are tendered to government, at a rate which insures an adequate profit to the owners ? — 1 should suppose they were in the owners' idea, or they would not tender them. Do not you, as a sailor and as an underwriter, consider the principal risk of the voyage between Madras and London, to be in that portion of the voyage contained between the Lizard and Gravesend } — 1 have, as a sailor, always considered it upon my mind, as the most difficult ; I have been always the most anxious, as the captain of a ship, between coming to Scilly and coming to Loudon ; and I have insured my ship specifically from London, clear of the Channel, and 1 have insured here lear in the Channel, when 1 have not insured her between the two extremes of Scilly and Madras. You consider that portion of the voyage as subject to the greatest risk ? — 1 have considered it so certainly. Is there not a greater danger from the enemy, during war, in that part of the voyage ? — I applied it to sea risk in my first answer ; should consider as to the enemy, that the risk would be greater, strictly speaking, with a East Indiaman, between coming from Madras and coming into the Channel, before I got to Scilly, than after I got there; the reason of my idea is, that I conceive our cruizers are so much in the Channel, when they are not to be met with off the Western islands. Do you consider the revenue most endangered in that portion of the voyage, after making the land, between the Lizard and Gravesend ? — As far as my own observations can go, I have always considered that theeasiest mode of smuggling was between Scilly and quitting the Downs. If a port situate at the entrance of the Channel could be found suitable in all other respects of accommodation for the care and sale of Indian goods, would not such a port be eligible? — 1 should not immediately think it would tor an export trade, it would be eligible as far as the interior of that country required its goods; 1 should not think it would be so eligible for the Continental trade, as London or Liverpool. If EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 5 69 If it should be decided, that the export and import trade is laid open, John Woolmore, would not a port situate as Plymouth is, be considered to be in a desirable Esq. situation? — If I am to compare it with others, perhaps, I should not think it is so ; I should not think it is, compared to Liverpool, for this reason, that the export to the Continent, it appears to me, would be easier from Liverpool, and more connected with the Continent, than coming through the British Channel, and going through our Eastern Channel, I think there would be that difference ; the difference in my mind, I should say, arises from that cause. The question applies to its geographical situation ? — For the con- venience of the ships entering from India, certainly it is more convenient than any of the others, as far as its navigation goes ; it is easier of access than either Liverpool or any other port that I know in England. Do not you consider, that the revenue would be better secured in that situation, than any other ? — I really cannot answer that question, as it must depend entirely upon the system adopted. Having commanded ships to and from India, in your opinion, would not a ship arriving at such a port, situated as that is, put the revenue to less danger than any other, as it is geographically placed ? — As far as the convenience of situation goes, I consider it a quicker navigation after it arrives in the Channel, than it is to Liverpool, or any port to the north- ward, as far as the navigation goes ; it is easier to be remedied than the other places; but as to its locality upon the land, I cannot answer to that at all. [The Witness withdrew. 4D *0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE [THE following Extracts were read from the papers returned by order oi this Committee, by the Commissioners of Customs.] QUERIES transmitted to the COMMISSIONERS of the CUSTOMS, in- a Letter from George Harrison, Esq. dated the 28/// July 1812. Queries transmitted 1st.-— Has the Board of Customs reason to suspect that smuggling of to the Commission- f ea3) or f p as t India goods, has taken place to any considerable extent in e,rs of the Customs. .1 c ., , . 7- 5 T r • l i i the course ot the last hve years? It so, in what ports or places has it ex- isted, and in what manner has it been carried on ? 2d. — What seizures of such goods have been made in each year, aad where ? 3d. — In the event of the import trade from India and the China seas being opened to the out-ports, would the danger of smuggling be in- creased, and in what degree ? 4th. — How far might such danger be increased by the restoration, of peace ? 5th. — Can any measures be devised to prevent such danger;. and what are those measures? 6th. — To which of the out-ports could such trade be opened, with the greatest security to the revenue, and under what regulations; and would it be advisable to restrict the tonnage of ships trading to the East Indies- and the China seas ? 7th. — Can the warehousing of East India goods be permitted in any of the out-ports, and which, with safety to the revenue; and what arti- cles can be so warehoused in each port ; and under what regulations? 8th. — Can the ad valorem duty on certain Ea^t India goods be secured in the out-ports, and under what regulations ; or must it be commuted for a rated duty ? If so, what should such duty be on each article ? 9th. — Would any, and what additional establishment of officers be necessary in any of the above cases ; and what would be the additional expense of such establishment ? RETURN of the principal Officers in the East India department. RETURN of the Surveyor of the King's warehouse and his Assistant. RETURN of the Surveyor of Sloops. ANSWERS EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 571 ANSWERS of the principal EAST-INDIA OFFICERS. Honourable Sirs, IN conformity to the annexed directions of the Honourable Board, we Answers of the have considered the several questions therein contained, with the attention ^ c ' pal East Ind ' a that so important a subject requires, and respectfully submit the following observations : No. 1. — Upon this question we have to observe, that we have no op- portunity of witnessing transactions of this nature ; but the smuggling of tea and East India goods, particularly shawls, fine muslins, and calicoes, silk, handkerchiefs, raw silk, china, and lacquered ware, and articles used as ornaments, &c. are circumstances of so much notoriety, that we have not the least doubt of its being carried on to a very serious extent, to the great injury of the revenue and of the manufactures of the country. The ports or places where this practice exists to the greatest extent, it is difficult to stare; but, according to the information we have received upon the subject, the smuggling from East India ships takes place at the Land's End while the ships are passing through the Downs, and at the entrance of the River Thames, and until the ships have got into the East India Docks. The way in which smuggling is carried on, we understand, is frequently by the means of persons who in boats are in the habit of boarding East India ships upon their first arrival, under the pretence of supplying fresh provisions and vegetables. We have likewise been informed, that the revenue officers, who are placed on board these ships to guard the interests of the Crown, absolutely become the instruments of this nefarious traffic ; and when it is considered the extent to which it has been carried, it seems impossible that it could have been effected without the connivance or aid of these persons. It may also be proper to observe, that the smuggling of East India goods has not only been Irom the ships importing these goods, but also takes place from vessels on which they have been shipped lor ex- portation ; a circumstance deservingof consideration, and should be guard- ed against in any regulatious that may be adopted concerning the export- ation of such goods trom an out-port. No. 2.-— We have no means of ascertaining either the quantity or amount ot Eist India goods seized in each year, or where the same have ; been made. No. 3. — In answer to this question, wc have to obrerve, that the clanger < I) 2 of 572 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Answers of the of smuggling would, in our opinion, be considerably increased, and in ppiicipal East India proportion as the means of discovery would be lessened, from the low es- tablishment of officers employed in guarding ships at out- ports, when compared to that of London, the illicit trader would from that circumstance have fewer obstacles to encounter in his attempts to defraud the revenue, and smuggling, we have no doubt, would be effected to a. considerable ex- tent in respect to a variety of articles of general demand in this country, but particularly tea, pepper, shawls, fine muslins and calicoes, spices, valuable drugs, china, lacquered ware, cornelians, silk handkerchiefs, china silk, crape, ornamental articles, &c. manufactured in China or India. No. 4. — A time of peace has always been considered, and we believe very truly, the most favourable season for smuggling, as vessels employed in that trade can pass more freely upon the seas without interruption, and are less liable to be searched and detected by his Majesty's ships, than in time of war. No. 5. — We are of opinion, that smuggling from ships importing East India goods, might be checked in a very great degree, by an extension and a rigid enforcement of the manifest act. The Company's cargo, private trade, and all articles liable to duty, whether brought as merchandize, for presents or for private use, or otherwise, should be manifested at the port or place of lading ; not only should the packages be accurately described, . but the articles should also be fully specified, with the quantity contained in each package, and name of the articles shipped in foreign parts : This regulation, after due and sufficient notice being given, we are of opinion should be insisted upon, and in no case allowed to be departed from, but made absolute upon the commanders of East India ships, and also upon the first and second mates, by making all and each of them liable to severe . penalties in case of goods being found on board of ships not manifested, or proved to have been smuggled from any East India ship. The existing regulations, it must be obvious, are inadequate to the purpose of prevent- ing the illegal landing of East India goods in this country, and the penalties to which persons are now liable are either evaded, or they bear no pro- portion to the advantages which are derived from smuggling ; it being well known that few ships arrive from India, that have not on board a con- siderable quantity of goods not manifested, for the express purpose of being smuggled ; and should no opportunity offer to run the goods on shore, they are frequently thrown overboard at the entrance of the River, where they are seen floating after the arrival of a fleet. This question has also led us to consider the advantages that officers who guard East India ships receive, in detecting smuggling, and in the seizure of goods caught in the act of being run ; and although they are entitled to a moiety of the proceeds EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 573 proceeds of seizures, yet we find, the period which elapses before thev re- Answers of ihe ceive any benefit therefrom, under the present system, is so distant, being nrnnpal East India frequently upwards of twelve or fifteen months, that we are fearful it docs Oncers, not produce that exertion and zeal for the service which is requisite for the protection of the revenue, and that inferior officers, from that cause, are tempted, for an immediate benefit, to forego their duty, and connive at fraudulent acts; but if the period for the payment of officers' shares of seizure was reduced to three or four months, we have no doubt but that considerable benefit would result to the service. No. 6 -^-After the most mature consideration of this question, we are of opinion, that the trade with India should only be opened to a few of the largest of the out ports, viz. Liverpool, Bristol, Hull, and Lancaster; and that the.articles allowed to be imported at those ports should be limited to those of a particular description, which will be found stated, as the least objectionable in our answer to the next question, No. 7 ; and those goods should be made subject to the same regulations, as far as the same can be assimilated, to the regulations observed by the East India Company in the landing, examining, sale and delivery, as well as being subject to the same duties. We are also of opinion, that it would be advisable to restrict the tonnage of ship-ping trading to the East Indies from out-ports, to vessels of not less than 400 or 500 tons burthen; as smuggling from ships of this de- scription cannot be so easily effected, and is attended with greater risk than Irom vessels of less tonnage. No. 7- — We are. of opinion, that such description of East-India goods ■ as may be deemed fit and proper to be imported at particular ports, might be with equal safety permitted to be warehoused ; but in determining at what ports, and upon the articles that should be allowed to be imported, there requires much consideration, and is a subject of great importance to the revenue. It appears to us first proper to consider, should any articles subject, to ad valorem duties be sold at an out-port, whether there would be such a demand for them, as would produce an equal price to what similar goods are sold for in London at the sales of the East-India Com- pany, otherwise the proper ad valorem duties would not be secured to the Crown ; and in order to make advantageous sales of goods, there must not only be a demand for the goods, but also a sufficient number of buyers of the articles, to create an open and fair competition among the p irehasers ; for should that not be the case, it is easy to foresee the preju- dicial consequences to the revenue that must inevitably ensue ; goods would be sold probably for half their original cost, the duties upon them would be in the same proportion unproductive, and the value of similar goods, . at other places, considerably reduced., to the great injury of the revenue. AYe must also observe, that the same loss to the revenue would result from . 574 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Answers of the from a combination among the purchasers, by which a public sale might prmapal East India ^ e ma( j e a nom j na l one? to defraud the revenue, and the goods in reality sold at an advanced price by private contract. The articles to which there appears to us to be very considerable objection to their being allowed to be imported at an out-port are the following, viz. tea, which is the principal article of import by the Company ; the country derives a revenue of upwards of ^i ,000,000 annually ; the duty of customs rnd o'f< excise thereon is 96 percent, upon the sale price; it therefore appears to be an article that holds out the greatest temptation to smuggle, and if it was not for the constant care and attention which the East India Company pay to supplying the market with only a sufficient quantity for the consumption of the country, the price would be considerably reduced, and the revenue very much lessened ; and if the trade in this article was opened to out-ports, we are apprehensive that it would be very difficult to arrange the importations of it, so that the public might be regularly supplied with the different sorts in demand. Pepper is an article the original cost of which in India is very low, and from the custom duty being very high (which is rated at equal to an ad valorem duty of £3b0 per cent, on its value) makes it very probable, if allowed to be imported at an out-port, that the illicit trader would smuggle it to a very great extent, and there is already of this article, in the Company's warehouses, a sufficient quantity to >upply Europe for many years. Saltpetre is also an article which, it appears to us, should remain under the present regulations and restrictions of importation, in order that Government may al- ways command an ample supply, and the enemies of the country be prevented, as much as possible, from obtaining it in time of war. Fine muslins and calicoes, plain, flowered or stitched ; nankeen cloths ; shawls; china; lacquered ware ; manufactuies of ivory ; cornelian and a; ate, are articles subject to ad valorem duties, and upon which a considerable revenue is derived ; but the quantity in demand by the public, is not, in our opinion, suc.i as woidd admit of a divided trade to 'ndia, with any considerable advantage to individuals; and if these articles were clandestine!; introduced into this country, they would not oul occasion great loss to the revenue, but would operate very injuriously to the British manufactures, which are now protected by the duties to which 1 he same are liable when sold under the regulations of the Ea c t India Company. Silk handkerchiefs; China silk crape; manufactures of silk; chintz; printed or dyed calicoes, arc also articles which, i£ fraudulently introduced into this country, would greatly injure its manufactures. Our next consideration has led us to examine what ;tr icles there mig t be the least objection to allowing to be imported at the most considerable but-po'rts, as alluded t'5 in our observations to question EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 575 question No. 6. and in which an extensive trade might be carried on Answers of the by individuals, in the event of the trade being opened: the following K*^* rt articles appear to us to be of that descri >tion, viz. coarse muslins and calicoes; coarse prohibited piece-goods of coloured cotton, whose real val .e does not exceed Is. 6d. per yard (exclusive '.f the duti.s), and such as are usuall exported t i the Continent, the West Indies, America and her dependencies, and to Africa j raw silk, coffee, indigo, cotton wool, sugar, niaee, nutmegs, cloves, cinnamon, cassia, cassia beads, hemp, hides, skins, ginger, galls, gums, madder root, red and yellow sanders, seedlack, sticklack, shillack, turmerick, senn i, teakvvood, mother of ; pearl shells, sago, rice, opium, barilla, camphire, and articles of a similar description; being such as are subject to low duties, or mostly in demand for exportation, or similar to articles already allowed to be imported at out-ports from other places than the East Indies. No. 8. — We are of opinion, that the ad valorem duties could not be secured at an out-port upon a variety of goods to which we have parti- cularly alluded in our aforegoing observations, and it does not appear to us that the same would be commuted, considering the nature of the articles, for a rated duty, and particularly as the East India Company must, of necessity, make public sale of the goods imported by them. No. f). — In the event o? the trade to India being opened to the merchants of London, some addition to the olfices of the inspector and surveyor of East India goods would probably be necessary, but what additional aid wall be requisite must depend upon the extent to which the trade is opened ; and such ports as the trade may be extended to will, according to our opinion, require competent officers to see that the goods are regularly brought to sale under their proper names, and that the proper duties thereon are duly collected ; but what the additional expense would be of such new establishment, we conceive, at this time, it is impossible for any officer to state, with any degree of correctness. In submitting the aforegoing observations to the Honourable Board, we beg to be understood as naving only given an outline of our opinion ; being well aware that the subject is interwoven with many political considerations, besides the question of revenue; but whenever we may be acquainted with the views of the Legislature, we shall be prepared to enter more minutely into the detail of the several points that may hereafter come under discussion Which is humbly submitted, East India Office, (Signed) F. A. Barnard, Inspector.. l6th September 1812. G. Barnard, Surveyor. 516 MMUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE am ANSWERS of the SURVEYOR of HIS MAJESTY'S WARE- HOUSE and his Assistant, Surveyor rf His Honourable Sirs, Majesty's W.ire- Having fully and maturely considered the questions submitted by the house, and Assist- p res j dent of the Boar(1 G f Commissioners for the Affairs of India to the consideration of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, we have to observe, First. — We have not any reason to suspect that smuggling of teas has taken place to any considerable extent in the course of the last five years, but we suspect that smuggling of East India goods, such as bandannas and silks, together with camels hair shawls and muslins, has taken place to a considerable extent in the course of the last five years ; though we cannot point out at what particular ports or places it has existed, or in what manner it has been carried on. Second. — An account of the seizures of such East India goods as the law directs shall be sent to London to be sold, may be made out in the department of the warehouse keeper ; but it will take up a length of lime, and mil t be done by extra clerks for the purpose. Third and fourth. — n the event of the import trade from India and the China seas being opened to the out-ports the danger of smuggling would undoubtedly be increased ; but in what degree it is impossible for us to conjecture, because so much would depend on the situation of the ports to be opened ; and that such danger would be increased by the restoration of peace there can be no doubt, because the ships would not arrive in fleets as they do in time of war, and a single ship can more easily evade observation. Fifth. — We do not know of any measures that can be devised to prevent such danger, other than the laws and regulations already in force. Sixth — It is not possible to say, with any degree of precision, to which of the out-ports such trade could be opened with the greatest security, though we should consider that the ports of the Channel from Falmouth to Portsmouth, afford greater security than the ports to the North or Bristol, as they could be guarded more easily, and do not offer so great an opening to smuggling on the opposite shore ; a restriction as to the ton- nage of the ships would be necessary, but we do not feel competent to give an opinion as to what other regulations might be advisable. Seventh. — The warehousing of East-India goods would certainly be permitted at the out-ports in the same manner and to the same articles as are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 57fl are now warehoused in London ; but until it shall be determined which Surveyor . of the out-ports shall be opened, we cannot form an opinion at which it | Ju^d wt can be done with the greatest safety; the regulations of the general ware- an t. housing system would be advisable. Eighth. — The ad valorem duty on certain East India goods could be secured in the out-ports under the same regulations as it is secured in London ; but there is every reason to suspect that the goods will never fetch a price at the out-ports equal to what they would in London, and therefore a rated duty may become necessary, but we cannot give an opinion as to what such duty should be. Ninth. — It is probable that no considerable additional establishment of officers would be necessary ; because if the trade to the port of London should diminish in any considerable degree, the establishment of officers might be reduced in a proportionate degree and added to the out-ports, so as to prevent any great additional expense. Respectfully submitted. King's Warheouse, (Signed) P. Lock. •17th September 1812. R. Eeales. ANSWER of the SURVEYOR for SLOOPS, &c. Honourable Sirs, In the event of the import trade from India and the China seas being Surveyor for opened to the out-ports, I am of opinion smuggling will be increased to a Sloops, &c very great degree. And that it will be still further increased in the event of a peace. In peace, vessels from India may be induced to loiter about in the mouth of the Channel, for the purpose of communicating with small vessels and smuggling, which, in war, they would be afraid to do on account of the privateers, or having their men impressed. In war time they will also arrive in convoys, when resort may be had to an additional temporary water-guard, which in peace must be constantly kept up, as vessels would be arriving at all seasons. Submitted. September 5tb, 1812. (Signed) J. M. Seppings. RETURNS from PRINCIPAL OFFICERS at various OUT-PORTS. DOVER. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, August 10th, 1212. In pursuance of your Honours' order of inquiry, of the 7th instant, on Returns from prln- the queries suggested by the Earl of Buckinghamshire, on the subject of cipal Officers at j.-Jij -.u I r various Out-ports, the trade with India : \__ JL-J 4 E 1st. — We (Dover) ' 578 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Returns from prin- cipal Officers at Ta- us Out-Ports. «- v ' (Dover.) 1st. — We have no reason to think that smuggling of teas or East-India goods has taken place, to any considerable extent, in the course of the last five years ; the smuggling effected has been, we think, between the Isle of Wight and the Nore, and in fast rowing boats; but the East-India ships h&Ve been so closely guarded (particularly of late) that we have heard of consid rable quantities ot tea (which, from not being entered in the ship's manifest, could not be admitted to entry) having been thrown overboard between the North Foreland and Gravesend. 2d. — An account is respectfully transmitted. 3d. — We are of opinion, that if the import trade from India and the China seas should be opened to the out-ports, that smuggling would be increased in a degree beyond calculation. Ships now go direct to the river, but if Liverpool, Bristol, Hull, and Leith,, were open for East-India ships there would be smuggling upon every part of the coast of England ; whereas, it is now confined to the coast of the Channel : and as ships, three times out of four, come into the Downs with strong westwardly winds, and make Dover or Deal almost the first place with which they communicate, there is frequently but little time afforded for unshipping any quantity of goods. 4th. — The danger would certainly be increased by the restoration of peace ; ships, in time of war, come up in convoys, and incur the risk of capture by loitering on their passage; but in peace, they would sail singly, and find many opportunities of hovering on the coast for the pur- pose of smuggling. 5th. — We are not able to devise any measure to avert the danger of smuggling by the opening of the out-ports to the East India trade. 6th. — As to the ports which it would be advisable to throw open for the East- India trade, and under what regulations, we do not feel ourselves competent to offer our opinion ; but we think no ship trading to the East- Indies or the China seas, should be less than four hundred tons. 7th. — To this query we do not feel ourselves competent to answer. 8th — To this also, we are not able to offer an opinion. 9th. — The expenses of an establishment to afford any check to the mis- chiefs that would arise by the throwing open the East-India trade, so far as the safety of the revenue is concerned by the prevention of smuggling, must be very considerable, but to what amount we are not able to calculate. We are, &c. >p. ,> \ B. J. Stow, Collector, ^ ° ' \B. G, Sampson, Comptroller. COWES. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 5,"9 COWES. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 28th August 1812. In obedience to your commands of the 7th instant, on the queries con- Return? from pnn- tained in Mr. Harrison's letter of the 28th of July last, on the subject of cipalOfficersatva- the India and China trade ; riwi Om-Ptorn. We respectfully submit our belief, that the smuggling of teas and East- ~/7i~^~ India goods, has considerably increased in the last five years ; and that the places in which such smuggling has successfully been practised, are between the Start Point, on the first appearance of the homeward fleets on the coast of England, and their ultimate destination, the docks in London river, accomplished by the communication ot small vessels and boats from the shore, on pretences of piloting and landing passengers To defeat such illicit practices, we know of no measure so probable as an amendment of the manifest act (viz. 26th Geo. III. chap. 40.) that should enact, that all chests, cases, bales or packages shipped in India or China, should be marked by the revenue export officer with a particular mark and progressive number, and that a manifest of the contents of the cargo of every ship, describing such marks and numbers should be drawn out by the collector or chief revenue officers in India or China, and by them transmitted under seal of office to your Honours. That no package, be its contents of whatever nature, muslins, shawls, silks, teas, or other commodities, shall be allowed to be received on board any ship in India or China, bound to Europe, but of a defined size or weight, similar to tobacco packages, under the regulations of the 29th of the King, chap. 68; and that all private trade articles, and presents of small packages, shall be packed in large cases or bales of defined dimen- sions and sizes properly secured ; that the whole of a ship's cargo, or lading or East-India or China produce, shall be stowed in the hold and between decks; and it any package or bale, contrary to such suggested rule, should (after its being passed into law) be found or discovered in the captain's cabin, or any part above the ship's deck, by any officer of the revenue who may board such ship on her homeward arrival in the Channel, all and every such package, bale, &c. may be seized as forfeited. On the meditated extension of the import trade from India and the China seas to certain out-ports, we are humbly of opinion, such pri- vileges should only be granted to Liverpool, Bristol, and other ports of 'mportant rank, and then only on condition that the merchants do estab- lish wet docks and warehouses surrounded by high walls similar to the construction of the wet docks in London ; our own experience confirming to us, that ships' cargoes when discharging on open quays, are always 4 E 2 liable • 80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE (Cowes ) (Fowey.) Returns from prin- liable to plunder, and that the confidence we place intide-waiters is too rioa! oS""rS. Va " often abused > vvhich is respectfully submitted by, ' i Honourable Sirs, Your most obedient servants, Jit. Ward, T. Chapman, FOWEY. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 21st August 1312. Pursuant to your letter of the 7th instant, we transmit our answers to sundry queries therein transmitted. We are, &c. Jn". Ki< her, Collector. J. IV. Louche, Comptroller. 1. — No smuggling of such goods has to our knowledge taken place at this port, within the last five years. 1 — There has been none made at this port for sixteen years. 3. — We think there wou'd be no danger of smuggling being increased. A. — We do not think the danger would be increased. 5. — We think no additional measure requisite. 6. 7. 8. & 9. — We do not think ourselves competent to answer those questions. FALMOUTH. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 31st August 1812. In obedience to your directions signified by Mr. Delavaud's minute of the 7th instant, we beg to send answers to the several queries, suggested by the Earl of Buckinghamshire, and transmitted in Mr. Ilarrison'b letter of the 28th July 1812, viz. 1st — it must be known by return of the seizures made from India ships, that a considerable degree of smuggling has been carried on during the last five years ; while practical experience has confirmed us in an opinion, the extent of it is hardly to be conceived, as it is carried on during the whole progress up the Channel, and completed after entering the river ; it is performed by cutters and boats of all descriptions, sanctioned by licences and other facilities arising from mistaken laws. 2nd — This can only be known by the Board ; the following only have been seized at this port, all in the year 1811 : — 27 yards muslin, 20 cot- ton handkerchiefs, 10 yards silk, and 5lbs of tea. 3rd -We (Falmouth.) EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 581 3rd — We think it would be hazardous to open the trade from India to all Returns from prln- the out-ports, without restrictions peculiarly adapted ; the danger of smug- jv p ** ~™ c ?fjj** ** i gling increasing, in our opinion, in a given ratio propjrtionate to the ex- ' > tent of communication. -p j .. 4th — Answered by the latter observation. I 5th — The establishing one port advantageously situaterl to receive, and equally adapted to protect, by a close regulated system of warehousing, every article of commerce. 6th — The map of the English Channel will speak more forcibly than any language we can make use of, as to the first part of the question ; and we are confident regulations might be formed equal to the trust : as to the tonnage of the shipping to be employed in this trade, we consider that of inferior moment, under the head of regulations. 7th — Falmouth opens to every impartial mind unbounded prospects of national wealth in point of facility of access, and safety to the revenue ; where every article of foreign commerce may be warehoused as a central point, and distributed coastwise to Wales, Scotland, and to Ireland, and ultimately supply all the Continent with teas and India goods of every description. 8th — We conceive an ad valorem duty could be collected here as safely as in London ; but knowing the fallacy of this mode of levying an impost, we should recommend its being commuted for a rated duty, which might be formed with very little difficulty. Qth — The establishment must be increased considerably, equal to the increase of trade, but at a much less expense than might be imagined. We are, See. J. Pellew, Col . J. Laffcr, Comp . PENZANCE. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 3 1st August 1812. In obedience to your Honours' directions, signified to us by Mr. Dcla- (Penzance.) vaud's letter of the 7th instant, respecting the trade to India, Inclosed, we beg leave to transmit your Honourable Board the Queries contained in Mr. Delavaud's. said letter, with our observations thereon, which is humbly submitted. We are, &c. A. Hampton, Coll . J. Nichols, Comp . 1st — We do not know that any smuggling of tea, or of East India goods, 682 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Betmns from prin- goods, has taken place on this part of the coast in the course of the last cipal Officers at va- fiye . g> nous Ont-1'orts. J , ,., . ,.,-, , ,. , , . .... i v ; 2nd — Not any seizures or East India goods have been made in this port, (Penzance.) within the last five years. 3rd — We do not conceive that smuggling would be increased in conse- quence of the East India trade being opened to the out-ports. 4th — We do not apprehend that the danger of smuggling would be in- creased by the restoration of peace. 5th.— I he revenue guard being greatly strengthened of late, would in our opinion be sufficient to detect any measures that might be attempted on this part of the coast. 6th. — We conceive that the India trade should be opened to the ports in general, as every subject thinks himself entitled to the same privileges ; and with respect to the tonnage of ships trading to the East Indies, wc presume it should be governed at the ports where the ships sail from. 7th. — We are of opinion, that East India goods in general might be warehoused in any of the out-ports, were proper warehouses provided for that purpose, with safety to the revenue. Sth. — The ad valorem duty on East India goods in general can be se- cured under bond ; it is totally out of our power to say what duty would be proper to fix on each article, as no entry of East India goods of any kind was ever made at this port. gth — We are of opinion, the present establishment of officers at most of the out-ports would be sufficient, as the trade, if permitted, would be but small at these ports. BRISTOL. (Bristol.) Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 2 1st August 1812. Pursuant to your directions, signified in your secretary's letter of the 7th instant, in consequence of an order from the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury, dated the 28th July, we have attentively con- sidered the several questions received with your said letter, on the subject of the trade with India ; and beg leave, on the foot hereof, to state our observations thereupon. We are, &c, (Signed) Tho. Eagles. Tho. Andreives. 1st. — The smuggling of teas or of East- India goods has not taken place at this port to any considerable extent, in the course of the last five years, as will appear by the answer to the next query. — 2d — EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 583 od Returns from prln- ~ , cipal Officers at va- When seized. Where ; with particulars. Uoods. ^.r^ QatrPortS. 1807- ----- Nil. - - - v „ 1808. September 30. - In an open boat on the river, being run - l£ lbs tea. (Bristol.) > November 4. - In a dwelling house, being run - - 12 ■ December 22. - Found in a box, with presents, imported \ from Barbadoes ) 1809. ----- Nil. 18,0. Nil. 1811. March 18. - From a man unknown, being run - - 19 3d. — In the event of the import trade from India and the China seas being opened to the out- ports, the produce of those places would be so exten- sively distributed through the kingdom, that we presume there would be less inducement to smuggle in the articles allowed for home consumption, than if the trade were carried on in a more confined manner 4th — We are not aware of such danger being increased by the restora- tion of peace, any otherwise than he actual consequences of an extension of commerce may be supposed to produce. 5th. — Answered by the former 6th. — It is submitted, that the opening the East-India and China trade should be extended only to the principal out-ports, and under the restric- tions of being secured in warehouses ; also, that it should be carried on in ships of not less burthen ihan three hundred tons, as the employment of small tonnage might give great facility to smuggling on some parts of the coasts of this kingdom ; besides it would enable adventurers of small capital to engage in such illicit practices. 7th. — We presume that any East-India goods could be safely secured in proper warehouses, at such of the principal ports as might be appointed, under regulations similai to those of the Act of 43 Geo. III. chap. 132. 8th. — We would submit, that a certain rated duty in the general would be preferable to an ad valorem one, as there would be a greater cer- tainty in the collection of the revenue, than if left to valuations at different parts of the kingdom, by which the duties on the same articles might considerably vary. 9th —With an additional trade, there certainly would be a small in- crease of officers necessary; but it can hardly be stated how many, until it may be known what the increase of trade would be; the departments at this port which we consider would require assistance, would be the landing surveyors, landing waiters, tide-waiters, warehouse-keepers, lockers and weighers. MILFORD. 534 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE MILFORD. Honourable Sirs, Returns from grin- \\ r e have, in obedience to your Honours' order of 7th August, subjoined cipal Officers at va- t , £ rom Mr Harrison, one of the Secretaries to the Lords Com- rious Out-Ports. . . r „. -. . , ' , .. , , . . , , •, , m-issioners or His Majesty s 1 reasury, fully and maturely considered the (Milford) Queries therein referred to, and have, with the best of our abilities and means of information, made our observations thereon, which are herewith transmitted. We are your honours Most faithful and obedient servants, Custom House, H. Leach. 1 1 st August 1812. A. Stokes. 1 st. — Smuggling of teas or East India goods has not taken place to any extent at this port, or on the coast. 2d. — Two in 1S07, of 12lb. tea, and 7 table mats, in Milford Haven, from the Neptune East Indiaman ; one in the year 1810, of V7 Indian silk handkerchiefs, and (X) yards Indian silk, in Milford Haven, on board the schooner Milford, from South Seas. 3d. — We think the danger of smuggling would be increased, but in a ery small degree. 4th. — We are not aware that the danger would be at all increased by the restoration of peace. 5th. — A considerable addition to the number of officers, proportioned in number and expense to the magnitude and extent of the trade, to be carrried on at any out-port. 6th. — The advantage of other ports we cannot speak to ; but the advan- tages of this, in preference to almostjany other, are in our humble opinion, since it is entered almost immediately on making the land, without any of the opportunities being afforded for smuggling, which present themselves in passing up either of the three channels ; there are already considerable warehouses here, and others could be immediately built ; and the harbour •is more secure, as well as more capacious, than any in his Majesty's do- minions. We see no reason, on public grounds, for restricting the ton- nage of ships trading to the East-Indies and China seas ; and the interests of those concerned would not fail to direct them to that tonnage which • would be most agreeable to their own interests. 7th. — The warehousing of East-India goods on importation cannot be permitted at present, but we conceive it might with safety to the revenue ; but with the addition of a very consideiable number of officers, of a re- .spectable class, and composed of intelligent men. We cannot give an opinion with respect to the regulations, as we are totally unacquainted wnh those --which have already matured in the port of London. 8th. — EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 585 8 tli. — We conceive a rated duty would be a more secure way of collect- Returns from prin- . . i J , e m c t j- cipal Officers at va- ing the revenue on articles impoited at any of the out-ports from India, as ri ^ us Qutuorts. it would be difficult to establish an uniformity of practice in charging an « v _^ ad valorem duty on India or China goods, in the absence of any data or (Milford ) practice to enable the officer to appreciate the proper value. We think therefore the duty should be on each article. Qth. — It is manifest that a very considerable additional number of offi- cers would be necessary, and that too of the most respectable description. The additional expense it would be presumptuous in us to calculate. HULL. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 31st August 1812. Webeg to transmit to you the inclosed Answers to the Questions trans- (Hull.) mined tons, respecting the trade to the East-India and the China seas, to which we humbly refer. We are, he. &c. Chas. Lutividge, Collector. C. Roe, Comptroller. 1st. — We are not competent to give an answer to this question, farther than regards this port, where no smuggling of any kind has taken place to any extent in the course of the last five years, and only one instance . of East- India goods, that we have heard of or suspect; viz. a parcel containing, 2d. — Twenty-six silk handkerchiefs and one silk shawl, seized from a person in the streets of this town ; how landed, or whence they came, we know not. 3d. — In the event of the import trade from India and the China seas being opened to the out-ports, we do not apprehend that the danger of smuggling would be increased, provided the trade was restricted to the principal out-ports. 4th. — Smuggling, in general, may be more easy in time of peace than in time of war ; but we do not apprehend that the danger of it would be increased, as far as regards the trade in question, by its being extended to the out-poils. 5ih — Manifests should be properly attested at the port of lading, the qualities ot the goods certified by some authorized person on the part of government, and security given for the due landing of the cargo. 6th. — We are of opinion that this trade could be opened, with the greatest security to the revenue, to the following out-ports, viz. Liverpool, Bristol, Hull, Newcastle, Giasgow, and Leith j and beiie\e it would be 4 E advisable 586 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE rious Oulports. ' v— (Hull.) Returns from prio- advisable to restrict the tonnage of ships trading to the East Indies and 11 va " the China seas, to vessels of not less than three hundred tons burthen. 7th. — The warehousing of all East-InJia goods might be permitted at this port, with safety to the revenue, as the dock company here have au- thorised us to say, that they would build proper warehouses for that ex- press purpose, upon any prescribed plan. Sth. — If the importation was restricted to a kw ports only, and the goods soil at public sales at them in succession, and at periods not too. frequent, we apprehend that the goods would fetch their true value ; but rated duties on all goods, it practicable, would be preferable. 9th. — We do not conceive that any additional establishment of office would be necessary at this port, beyond warehouse keepers. The whole is most humbly submitted. C/ias. Lvtwidge, Coll 1 . C. Roe, Cont r . (Preston.) (.Liverpool.) PRESTON. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 10th August 1812. In answer to your Honours' orders of the 7th instant, we have to inform your Honours that there has not been any smuggling of teas at this port, to our knowledge, and that no seizures have been made in the last five years ; that we are not of opinion that the restoration of peace would increase the danger of its being done ; that any goods may be safely warehoused at this port, and the duties secured. We are, &c. &c. Rich . Pitting tone. Rob'. Foster. LIVERPOOL. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 3 1st August 1812. As directed by your order of the 7th instant, we have attentively con- sidered the several queries transmitted to your Honours from the Treasury, upon the subject of the trade with India ; and inclosed, we have sub- mitted the observations which have appeared to us to be the most worthy of your notice, on the occasion ; and referring thereto, we are, Honourable Sirs, Your faithful and obedient servants, /. T. Sicainson, E. Rigby. 1st. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'6 AFFAIRS. 587 ive no reason to suspect, that teis or East-India goods, to Returns from prio- le extent,, have at any time been smuggled into this port. c 'P al °™*"* tr 1st. — We hav any considerable extent,, have at any time been smuggled into this port. oln-pori 2d. — Small parcels of such goods, belonging to the seamen or passcn- riu ^__ v . gers on board American or other ships arriving irom the Untied States, ^Liverpoal.) &c have been seized here within the last five years ; but the amount is very trifling, as will appear on reference to the account transmitted in o.ir letter of the 19th instant, No. 696. 3d. — This port, and for a considerable extent northward and southward, from the want of creeks and bays, affords no facilities for regular and systematic smuggling ; nor, in our opinion, would the revenue be exposed to any increase of danger, if the East-India trade was extended to this port. 4th. — The naval guard, which in time of war protects the coasts, must assist considerably in the prevention of smuggling ; bow tar the danger thereof would be increa-ed by the restoration of peace, we are unable to conjecture, not knowing to what extent the admiralty cruisers might then be employed in aid of the cruisers of the revenue. 5th. The recent arrangements of the land and water guard appear to be well calculated to defeat the objects of the smugglers ; and as the collector is aware that directions are given to the commanders of the revenue cruisers in the English channel, to be particularly watchful after ships arriving from the East Indies, he respectfully submits, whether the like directions in substance, so far as they may apply, might not be given to the commanders on the western stations, wiih instructions to put a certain number of their men on each vessel, with a deputed officer if he can be spared, to proceed with such ships to their destined ports. 6th — We would submit, whether the trade in question might not be opened to this port under similar regulations and restrictions, as to ton- nage, &c. to those under which the importation of tobacco is allowed here. 7th. — We are humbly of opinion, that any East-India goods might be warehoused here with safety to the revenue, provided that proper ware- houses were erected to the westward of the King's Dock, and surrounded with walls, as is proposed by the late Act ot Parliament for the improve- ment of this port, and that this indulgence should be withheld until the same is done. 8th. — We submit, that it appears to us to be desirable, both on account of the revenue and the merchant, to have a rate, rather than an ad valorem duty, on all articles, if practicable. 9th. —Though we cannot estimate to what extent the trade with India or China might be carried on from thi port, we do not think any con- siderable addition to the establishment, or . the expences of the revenue would be necessary. 4 F 2 QUEiUES 588 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE QUERIES transmitted to the COMMISSIONERS OF CUSTOMS, in a Letter from George Harrison, Esq., dated the 20th November 1812. Queries transmitted 1st. — Supposing ihe amount of trade and number of ships from the to the Commission- East Indies, &c to be the same, would there be more or less danger of ws of the Customs. smu gg|jng jf the trade was confined to the port of London, or if it was distributed between the port of London and the out ports ? 2d. — Supposing the extension of the trade to tne out-ports to lead to a general increase of the trade, or to an a 'dition to thr number of ships, would such increase of trade and addition of ships afford the prospect of an increase of smuggling, beyond the proportion of stxch increase of trade ? 3d. — Could any regulations be adopted, with a view to the examination of ships at St. Helena, or in any other possession of his majesty-^ which would be likely materially to check the practice of smuggling, when the trade arrived in the ports of the United Kingdom. 4th. — Is there any security against smuggling in ports having wet docks which are not surrounded with walls, which does not apply to ports with- out wet docks ? 5th — Have you any reason to believe, that there has been any con- siderable amount of smuggling in East-India and China goods 'm American ships, or through America ? 6th. — Upon the return of peace, would there be more danger of smug- gling East-India and China goods in British ships from the East-Indies, than in American ships, or through the Americans. ANSWERS of the Principal EAST-INDIA OFFICERS. Honourable Sirs, Answers of the In obedience to the Honourable Board's Order of the 26th ultimoj principal East-India founded upon Mr. Harrison's Letter of the 20th of the same month, we Officers. have to submit the following observations upon the several question ihae- in contained. 1st. Question.— -We are of opinion, in the event of the trade to- India being distributed between London and the out-ports, that the danger of smuggling would be more than if the trade-was confined to the port of London only. 2d. — We are of opinion, that an extension of the India trade to the o.u.t-ports would afford the prospect qf an. increase of smuggling, beyond the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 380 the proportion of such increase of trade ; and we beg to observe, that this Answer? of (lift • ■ • r j 11 i j li i r> ^ r r r> „, principal JSa3l-lnui» opinion is formed upon the knowledge that the Eist-Inata Company, as Q fficefJ< a body of merchants, cannot participate in any advantage arising trom illicit transactions, and it being their interest to adopt every regulation that they can devise to prevent, as much as possible, smuggling trom East- India ships, it being extremely injurious to the Company as well as the revenue ; and in the event of an extension of the India trade, we are of opinion there would be reason to apprehend that persons would engage in it for the express purpose of smuggling, and that the owners of the ships would share with the commanders the advantage arising from illicit transactions. 3d — We are not aware that any regulations could be adopted at St. Helena in examining the ships, that would materially check the practice of smuggling, provided the manifest laws are amended, and the quantity and quality of all articles shipped, with a particular description of the packages, are required to be accurately described in the manifest at the place of lading. 4th. — As we are apprehensive that smuggling would be mostly effected previous to the ship going into port, we do not conceive any considerable security would arise from having wet docks surrounded with walls, other than pror*\ ting the cargoes against plunder. 5th. — We have no reason to believe there has been any considerable amount of smuggling in East-India and China goods in American ships, or through America. 6th.— We are of opinion upon the return of peace, that there would be more danger of smuggling East-India and China goods in British ships from the East-Indies, than in American ships, or through the Americans. Which is humbly submitted. D. Maclean, Assistant Inspector, G. Barnard, Surveyor. East-India Office, 3d December 18 J 2. RETURNS from PRINCIPAL OFFICERS at various OUT PORTS. COWES. Honourable Sirs, Custom House, 30th November 1812. In obedience to vour commands, signified in Mr. Richmond's letter of Returns from pnn- the26th instant, on Mr. Harrison's of the 20th, on the subject of the jgj SEwST"" trade to India, we humbly submit our opinions in answer to the queries t __ V ____-J proposed. (Cowes.) 1st.— Thst 599 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE B tarn frora.pria- 1st. — That there would be more danger of smuggling if the trade to cjpal Officers at va- ,j nc jj a was distributed between the ports of London and the out-ports, <_ . j unless the out ports to which the trade might be extended, have wet docks (Cowes.) surrounded with walls. 2d. — There would not be a prospect of smuggling beyond the propor- tion of such increase of trade; because we think the size of the ships, would decrease, and there is consequently greater facility in guarding ships of small tonnage, and of 2 to 400 tons, than ships of larger tonnage. 3d — If it became a legislative regulation that no ship taking in a cargo in India should proceed to Europe, without first touching at St. Helena, or the Cape of Good Hope, or elsewhere, it might be possible to institute a method of registering under the cognizance ot the revenue establish- ment at either place, all small packages and parcels taken on board in India, contrary to the knowledge of the captain, and without being in- serted in the ship's manifest, and by sending a copy of such registry ad- dressed to your Honours sealed, it might counteract the running of prohibited silks, which is always practised in small bales of about twenty inches long, as well as other small articles. 4th. — None : if the depth of water, and capacity of the port or harbour are such as to enable ships to discharge their cargoes immediately on the quays, by the aid of shidds; but when a ship unloads her cargo or part of her cargo, when at anchor, in a river or roadsted, into lighters or barges to be afrerwards conveyed to the quays, and then to the ware- houses, great opportunities are always thereby afforded for pilferage and smuggling. 5th. — None has happened here to our knowledge, neitherbave we heard of its having been practised any where in the kingdom to any considerable amount. ,6th. — We do not think there would, particularly if a plan could be devised and acted upon for the registering all small packages and parcels, as suggested in answers to queries, No. 3. All which is respectfully submitted, by Honourable Sirs, Your most obedient servants, John Ward, T. Chapman. BRISTOL. Honourable Sirs, fBristol.) Pursuant to you directions signified in your secretary's letter of the 26th ultimo, accompanying the copy of a letter rrom Mr. Harrison, dated Treasury Chambers, 20th of the same monih, relative to the trade with India EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 5f Good Hope, in vessels loading at those ports only. No. 4. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 597 No. 4. — Such situations unquestionably afford an increased means of Returns from prin- removing; goods, whilst it diminishes the risque of detection; but we cipal ( r ' ftlcers at va " i i i i i n -ii/t^iii iii rious Out-ports. should hope that perfect security might be atlorded the revenue by lock- v _j ing the hatches immediately upon the arrival, and the attendance of proper (Milford.) officers by the authority of legislative provi ion. No, 5. — The fitting out of ships from the Continent appears to have been notorious for these purposes, but with respect to American ships or America, we are not acquainted with facts of the nature al- luded to. No. 6. — It is not probable that the smuggling on the Continent will be revived j with respect to America, we have no means of judging. We are, Honourable Sirs, Your obedient humble servants, H Leach. A. Stakes, $98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mercury, 5° die Afaii 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chain; THOMAS SYDENHAM, Esq. was again called in, and further examined by the Committee as follows : Tkos.Syde7iham, MAY it or not be naturally expected from the ingenuity of the natives Esq. of India, and their application to every thing by which they may make a *~" V — — ; profit, that they will arrive at such a knowledge and perfection in those handicrafts which are there practised, as to make all those articles on their own account, and by underselling the British artificers, whose mode of living is so much more expensive, and who having come to India to make their fortunes, will not sell those articles at so small a profit, drive them out of the country ? — I think it would be at least a considerable period before the natives can set up manufactures or handicraft that will rival or become superior to those established and carried on by Europeans ; but it is certainly probable, that in the course of time, the natives will arrive at such perfection in many of those trades, as not to render it worth the while of European workmen to remain in India ; certainly not as a source of wealth to be carried back to England, but probably as sufficient to in- duce them to remain altogether in India, for the purpose of carrying on their trade in India, rather than in England. Having informed the Committee that the workmen of the country are so apt, and so ingenious, and that there are some natives that have ca- pital, will not those natives who look after profit, set up those trades which have been learnt by the other artificers, and probably execute that purpose in a short time, and materially diminish and ultimately put an end to the import of most of the articles from England, of which the materials are found there ? — I believe that it will be a considerable period before any native workmen can be made equal to the European workmen ; in many cases, it is found cheaper to employ an European workman, although his wages are considerably greater, than those of a native, partly on account of his possessing his trade better, and partly because the robustness of their frame enables them to go through a great deal more work than can be ex- pected from any native ; I also think, that in cases where an European and EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 599 and a native have sufficient capital to employ in any of those trades, that Thos. Sydenham, the European from his superior science, ingenuity, and industry, will ge- Esq nerally get the better ot the native; there are some trades, particularly v Y ' those in steel and in iron, which I believe, in consequence of the climate, can never in India reach that degree of perfection which they have reach- ed in this country ; such I know to be the opinion of the officers of ar- tillery employed in the ordnance department ; and the same as to the coachmakers at Madras and Calcutta. You make that distinction, that those handicraft trades that require great strength of muscle, such as working in forges, may not be carried to that perfection in India by native workmen, but all others that do not require that robust frame, and that require only ingenuity, application and so- briety, which it is understood you have attributed to the natives superior to the British, may it not be expected, in consequence of that, that the importation of such articles may materially decrease ? — Although I am willing to allow, that the natives of India are superior to the Europeans in sobriety, I do not recollect to have stated that they were superior in in- dustry and ingenuity ; it must also be recollected, that although the natives , of India are ingenious in imitating any thing that is placed before them, they are generally incapable of making those improvements in the several branches of handicraft trade that appears to be always in a progressive state of improvement in England ; some improvements may originate in India from the European tradespeople ; and such as have taken place in the mother country, will be immediately followed by European artisans in India, of course, those improvements will gradually and slowly find their way among the natives; but as they will commence among the Europeans in India, this cause appears to me sufficient to secure to the European artisans in India, uniform superiority over the natives employed in similar trades. Must not those natives who are employed under those British artisans learn ail those improvements, whatever they may be, that are exercised by those British artisans, those now in use, and those that may hereafter be brought from Europe ? — As long as the natives continue to be employed by the Europeans, they will certainly adopt the improvements that may be made in any of the trades; but the question which has been put to me, rat .er refers to natives setting up establishments of this kind with their own capital, and not employed as journeymen by European masters. The question refers to those natives who have learned the improvements at present in use in India, and who will naturally learn whatever other ■ • improvements 600 "MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE llios. Sydenham, improvements are introduced. Will not natives who have capital employ Esq. other natives who have learnt all those improvements, and will they not be able to make all those articles so much cheaper as to undersell the English ? — I believe that in almost all cases, the native workmen would prefer being employed by European masters than by natives, partly because they will be more regularly paid, and partly because they would have the means of learning their trade sooner and better than under native masters. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the materials produced in Hindostan, to know whether nearly all those produced in Europe may not be pro- duced there, except British wool ? — I have already stated, that I do not think any of the manufactures in steel and iron, with the exception of swords made in a particular part of India, can be brought to that degree of perfection which now exists in England ; and I am not acquainted with many other articles of manufacture in which any rivalry could take place, except in such articles as carriages, and in the tannery line, that are con- sumed principally by the European inhabitants in India. You have mentioned, that in the houses of the higher Mussulmen, many articles of European manufacture were to be seen ; do you know whether those articles were wholly purchased by them, or whether they were presents on the part of the British 5 — I believe that the greater part of the articles of European manufacture to be seen in the houses of the higher classes of the Mussulmen at Hydrabad were purchased, and not presents. The comelies being so cheap, and having been represented to be in many respects more useful, is it probable that British red cloth can come into general use among the mass of the natives ? — I believe, as fir as I am acquainted with the subject, that it would be difficult, if not impossible to introduce into India any species of woollens, either red cloth, or cloth of any other colour, which would be cheaper, and more useful than the comely. Have not Europeans, in point of fact, penetrated clandestinely into the interior of India ? — I believe that many individual Europeans have succeeded in penetrating clandestinely into different parts of the interior of India. Is it not your opinion, that going one or two together they might penetrate, when, if they attempted to go in bodies there would be a moral certainty of their being stopped: — One European endeavouring to penetrate EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFA1KS 601 penetrate into the interior of the country, is liable to detection ; and, of Thos.Syknn.-, course, it would be almost impossible for any body of Europeans to travel Lv|. through the country without immediate detection. « * ' Is it not probable, tbat in case a desperate, or turbulent, or intriguing European might have a strong interest to get into the interior, he might succeed, notwithstanding any restrictions that might be devised in those parts of the country which are under British influence? — I certainly con- ceive, that any one European, whatever be his character, who is ac- quainted with the language of the country, and with the roads over which he is to travel, by disguising himself and travelling in the night, could at all times pass through the country, without incurring any considerable risk of detection, even through the Company's possessions. Supposing the foreign settlements, tbat is, the settlements belonging to the Dutch, Danes, and French, were restored to those several nations, are they not at present surrounded by the British territories, and, of course, is it not nearly impossible for them to penetrate into the country, if the British police do their duty ? — Those settlements are certainly surround- ed by provinces under the British government; and although it would be difficult for any foreigner, and particularly if he was unacquainted with the language of the country, to penetrate through the Company's pro- vinces, I still think, a single European, acquainted with the language, and being able to avail himself of the disguises under which he may pass through the country, may escape detection. Do you imagine or not, that Englishmen, considering Hindostan as their empire, and who may go there under parliamentary enactment, may not be more liable to commit irregularities and violences against the natives than any other foreigners, who will find so much difficulty in going into the interior, and being permitted to remain there? — I have always observed, that Englishmen are more apt than those of any other nation to commit violences in foreign countries; and this I believe to be the case in India, as in every other country foreign to England ; it is also probable, that the foreigners, living, as it were, under sufferance in India, would be less liable to insult the natives than an Englishman, considering India as part of the British empire. Do you consider that, practically speaking, if British subjects go to India under a parliamentary exactment, it may not be necessary, consi- dering the odium that attends the magistrates, and even the supreme government of India, sending British subjects or Europeans out of the 4 H country. 60<2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Sydenham, country, also to make a parliamentary enactment in order to strengthen Esq. the hands of Government there, that any irregularities or violences com- mitted by them against the natives should be, ipso facto, followed by a removal from the country, subject to that being remitted by the go- vernor general ? — I think that, in every case, it would be absolutely ne- cessary to invest the local government of India with the power of remov- ing from India any British subjects who may be guilty of violence and improper conduct. Has not the supreme government in India that power at this moment ? — I believe it has. You mentioned in the course of your examination yesterday, two in- stances, and the only two within your knowledge, of merchants, or rather shopkeepers, proceeding to Hydrabad in pursuance of a plan and object which the government in India seemed to have in view, for the extension of the sale of European manufactures; do you know whether the mer- chants who reside in India, chiefly at the presidencies, commonly resort to the interior for the purposes of their trade, when not sanctioned or encouraged by any particular object on the part of government? — I be- lieve that it is the general custom of all houses of agency, and other traders, at the different presidencies in India, to employ native agents in conducting their commercial transactions in the interior of the country, the method usually pursued being to have a confidential native agent be- longing to the house, who is generally entrusted with the selection of other native and subordinate agents in carrying on all their commercial transactions in the interior of the country. Is it not found by experience, that this branch of the trade of India is generally carried on better and cheaper by native agency ? — I believe that the mode above described has been universally found to be at once cheaper and more efficient than the employment of European agents for similar purposes. Under these circumstances, do you conceive that any new traders re- pairing to India, under the proposed opening of the trade, could have any particular motives for going in any numbers into the interior, seeing that the interest of such traders and merchants almost constantly confine them to the presidencies and principal sea-ports ? — I should conceive that all new traders going to India, who understood their own interests, and weie willing to be instructed by the experience of those already esta- blished in trade in India, would prefer the employment of native agents in EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 668 in the interior, to European, and that therefore it would not he very pro- Tlios.Si/dniliain, bable that the establishment of any number of houses of business at the Esq. presidencies and the principal sea -ports, would lead to the employment of *■ Y — — * European agents in the interior of the country. You are understood to have stated in a former part of your examina- tion, that the Americans who repair to India for the purposes of trade, have not settled to your knowledge, either at the presidencies in India, or have penetrated into the interior, but have appeared merely as port traders ; this being the ordinary course of carrying on the trade on the part of the Americans, may it not be expected from the intelligence of British merchants, that they would observe a similar course of proceed- ing ? — In answering the question which has been alluded to, I stated to the Committee, that I knew nothing respecting the American merchants and traders from my own personal observation ; but from never having seen any Americans settled at the presidencies, or having met them in the interior of the country, I believe they are known in India merely as port traders ; and I should conceive, that as there would be no necessity for British merchants to deviate from a system which has hitherto been found adequate to all the purposes of commercial intercourse with the interior of India, they would probably follow the example of the Ame- ricans, and not employ European agents in the interior of the country. Have the goodness to state to the Committee, from your knowledge of India generally, and particularly of the climate, whether you think Eu- ropeans could travel into the interior of the country, without exceedingly great inconvenience and risk, unless they had a suitable conveyance, and accommodation for the purpose, such as a horse, palanquin, tent, &c. ? — 1 think Europeans of the lower classes might travel through the interior of the country without much inconvenience, although they were not supplied with any of the accommodations above mentioned ; but in some parts of the country, they would of course be exposed to considerable personal risk ; on the other hand, persons in a higher sphere of life, such as for instance, the gentlemen whom I have generally seen employed in houses of agency, could certainly not travel through the interior of the country without means of conveyance, and tents to secure them against the effects of the climate. Would not an European attempting to penetrate clandestinely into the country on foot, incur great risks to his health as well as to his person, from the nature of that climate, and the total want of accommodation upon the road ? — I think it probable, that in a climate such as that of 4 H 2 India, 604 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Sydenham, India, any European travelling through the country without adequate Esq. means of accommodation might expose his health, besides his person ; v V ' but this would be more particularly the case in certain seasons of the year, and through certain parts of the country. If such European carried money or goods with him to pay his expenses on the road, would he not be liable to be r.ibbed and even murdered by the Pindarries and other numerous plunderers in the Mahratta and Nizam's country ? — In some parts of the Deccan, particularly in those provinces that are infested by the Pindarries, Naichs, Bheels and other freebooters, any European travelling with money and goods, without being escorted by a guard, would run considerable risk, of being plunder- ed of his goods, and perhaps of being murdered ; but the danger would not be so great in those parts of the country that are cultivated, and where the governor exercises supreme authority. Did you hear, during your residence in India, of various attempts made by European deserters to penetrate into the interior, and of their being generally, if not always intercepted? — While I was resident, at Hydrabad, there w?re not many cases of desertion occurred ; but, almost in every instance, the deserters effected their escape to some distance from the capital, and established themselves in the service of some one or other of the jaghiredars in the Deccan ; it however generally happened, that I obtained a knowledge of their route and place of con- cealment, and by an application through the Nizam to the jaghiredars, succeeded in recovering the deserters ; in one or two instances it was not in my power to detect them, and in one case, it became necessary to threaten ajaghiredar by the employment of a military force, before I could obtain his release. The cases alluded to in the preceding answer, it is presumed, have reference to desertions from the force at Hydrabad ; do you know of any similar attempts having been made by European deserters to penetrate into the interior from either of the presidencies or military stations on the coast? — I really cannot recal to my recollection any cases of a similar description of which I could state the particulars to the Committee, excepting the case of a French officer who broke his parole and escaped from Pondicherry, and had established himself either in the Nizam's or the Mahratta country, before the government could prevail upon the prince to deliver him up to the resident at the court ; I am not quite clear whether at Hydrabad or Pooiiah : Another case occurred at Poonah, where two or three French officers had made their way to the city of Poonah^ EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. G05 Poonah, and remained concealed there for some time before the resident Thos.SydcnliCim, became acquainted with the fact of their being there ; and it was not till Esq. altera vexatious negociation of two or threeweeks,that the Peishwah or his y ' minister could be prevailed upon to deliver them up; it has also occurred to my predecessor at Hydrabad and to myself, to find Europeans in different parts of the Deccan who had deserted many years before, and who either were detected or delivered themselves up, in the hope of their crime being pardoned. Can you state in what year the two occurrences, referred to in your preceding answer, or either of them, occurred? — The first instance occurred, I believe, in the year 1"98, the second about the year 1802; but I cannot recal to my recollection the dates at which the desertions alluded to in the third case took place, probably from ten to fifteen years ago. Were those Europeans delivered up to the British government in pursuance of the treaty now in force, which prohibits the employment of Europeans in the services of the Nizam and the Peishwah, without the permission of the British government? — The French officer, alluded to in the first case, was delivered up before the conclusion of the treaty containing that stipulation ; the French officers at Poonah were delivered up in consequence of the resident's insisting on the Peishwah's fulfilment of that particular stipulation in his last treaty ; in the other instances, it was not necessary to appeal to the Nizam's government, as the deserters alluded to were either detected by parties of the Company's troops, or voluntarily delivered themselves up. Did you hear, during your residence in India, of the escapes of French prisoners from Bombay, and of their having attempted unsuc- cessfully to penetrate into the Mahratta country ? — I he only case of that description of which I heard, was one that took place during the peace of Amiens ; and though 1 have no distinct recollection of the circum- stances, I believe that some French officers or soldiers did attempt to penetrate from the sea coast into the interior of the Mahratta country, and were intercepted, as far as my recollection serves me, on the frontier between the Concan and the Ballawit Mahratta territory. Are you acquainted with an attempt made during the course of this war by the French, to land adventurers on the coast of the Concan from a small vessel called the Passe par Tout, and of those adventurers having been given upon the strong remonstrances of the late resident at Poonah, and 60d MIXL TES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Tlios.Sijdeiitunii^nd surrendered to the British government agreeably to treaty? ~t Esq. confess I do not recollect the circumstances which arc alluded to in the 4 V ' question that is put. Could any Europeans, in the present state and circumstances of the Deccan, perform any active duties in the service of ajaghiredar, without a knowledge of a vigilant resident at the court of the Nizam ? — Ithink that it would be very possible for one or more Europeans to be employed by a jaghiredar, in the training and disciplining of his troops for some time, without the intelligence of such a circumstance reaching a resident, however vigilant, particularly if the government of the Nizam were disposed to encourage their concealment. Considering that the Europeans left from Monsieur Raymond's corps in the Nizam's service, as referred to in a former part of your examination, may have formed connections more or less intimate during their resi- dence in that country, do not you consider their ease to be very different fronran attempt now made on the part of strangers to penetrate into the interior in search of employment? — I certainly consider the cases to be very different ; I only mention the fact alluded to in the question, to show the possibility of Europeans living in the Nizam's dominions, and being employed in his service, without the knowledge of the resident at his Hisjhness's court. '& l Did those Europeans alluded to do any particular mischief to the public interest, in the service in which they were employed, previous to detection by you ? — I cannot say that they- did any particular mischief of such a nature as to attract my attention ; but they naturally persevered in retaining the forms and usages of the French service, in employing the French words of command, and probably in keeping up amongst the natives under their command, their attachment to that nation, by the officers of which they had been raised and commanded; this was proved by the resolute determination, on the part of the men, to resist the introduction of the English system of exercise and words of com- mand ; and if, before the reform which afterwards took place, it had been possible to have excited any considerable disturbance in the country, or that the country had been invaded by any other prince, or that hopes had been held out of any co-operation from the French power, I conceive that in either of those cases, considerable mischief might have resulted from the continuance in the Nizam's service of the foreigners whom I have mentioned ; there were many persons amongst those officers, some of good character, and others perfectly inoffensive; but I had EAST -INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS 607 had them all removed, both from the Nizam's service and the territories, Thos. Sydenham, upon a general principle. Esq. Was not the corps alluded to in the preceding questions, and to which those officers belonged, generally, if not entirely, officered by French and other foreign officers f — Previously to the treaty of offensive and defensive alliance between the Nizam and the Company in the year 1798, these corps were almost entirely officered by French and other foreign officers ; I believe there were one or two Englishmen amongst those officers. Did those officers find their way into the Nizam's service previously to the treaty by which his highness is restricted from the employment of European officers, and also previously to the present regulations in force in India, which prevent Europeans from travelling through the country without a regular passport ? — I believe that the greater number of those officers had been with the corps alluded to, during the period that Mon- sieur Raymond and Monsieur Feron commanded ; and I do not recollect more than two or three instances where the officers had joined, since the destruction of Raymond's corps, and those instances, if I recollect right, were half-cast men from Pondicherry. Through what channels do you suppose those foreigners found their way to India, and into the service of the Nizam ? — I believe that most of them came from Pondicherry, direct to Hydrabad, on being sent for by Monsieur Raymond, or going to Hydrabad in search of employment ; some of them came from the employment of Scindiah, Holkar, and other Mahratta chieftains. Has it come to your knowledge whether any serious disturbances ever occurred in the interior of the country, from the introduction of those foreign Europeans into the service of the Nizam ? — I never heard of any serious disturbances having occurred within the territories of the Nizam, from the introduction or employment of the officers in question ; the fact was, that Monsieur Raymond is a man of considerable talents, who held a very high command, was supported in his authority by the Nizam's government, had large estates conferred upon him for the support of the troops under his command, and both over the military force and the districts belonging to him, exercised an absolute and almost, independent power. If the settlements and factories in India, heretofore held by the French, Dutch, v U08 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Thos. Sydenham, Dutch, atul Danes, should again be restored to those powers, would Esq. the same facilities for introducing foreign Europeans from those scttle- v " ■ ... v -... * ments into the interior of India, again present themselves? — If the settlements belonging to the French, Dutch, and Danes, were restored to those powers, I do not conceive that the same facilities would take place in the introduction of foreigners from those settlements into the interior of the country, partly because the authority of the Company's government over their own possessions has been considerably increased, and because in consequence of the late treaties of alliance between the Company and the native states, the residents at the courts of the native princes are enabled to exercise much more vigilant and efficient controul than they were formerly enabled to do. If British subjects were to find their way into the country, do you think that there is any greater reason to apprehend disorderly conduct from them than from any other Europeans or Americans ? — I do not believe that the Americans have found their way into the interior of the country; with respect to other foreigners, they have generally penetrated into the interior of the country for the purpose of being employed in the service of some one or other of the native princes of India, and as they are there under a strict military discipline, no disturbance is likely to take place; but the case would be different, if foreign or British adventurers were to range over the country without any particular object, or being employed in any regular corps in the service of any of the native princes. Did the British officers of the subsidiary forces at Hydrabad or Jaulna, conduct themselves to your knowledge, in an unruly or unbecoming manner towards the natives of those countries ? — I do not recollect any instances of the British officers belonging to the subsidiary force, either at Hydrabad or Jaulna, conducting themselves in a violent or unruly man- ner towards the natives of the country; of course, some slight disputes and quarrels have taken place during the course of my residence at Hydrabad, which are of too trifling a nature to intrude upon the notice of the Committee. When excesses of the description alluded to do occur, are they not commonly the acts of hot-headed or violent young men? — Almost always; I have scarcely known any officer who has resided a few years in India, and become even slightly acquainted with the language and habits of the natives, who has shown any disposition to conduct himself in a violent or unbecoming manner towards the natives. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. CO0 To you think that a sober calculating merchant, is as likely to commit Tlws Sydenham, excesses of this description as a person who has not the same motives of Es^. private interest and calmer habits to restrain him ? — I do not conceive V that a sober calculating merchant engaged in business, whose interest it must evidently be to conciliate the natives, would be likely to violate or infringe theirVcligious habits and prejudices; but it must be considered that the officers in the army, although perhaps more inclined to excesses than merchants, are frequently restrained from them by the discipline in which they are kept, and by the fear of penalties and punishments to which they would be subject lor the slightest misconduct. In your expensive intercourse with the natives of India, has it come to your knowledge that such natives make a wide distinction in their own minds, between the mercantile part of the European community in India, and the young and wilder servants of the King and Company who occa- sionally get among them ; and that such natives can as correctly as any people on earth, discern the particular motives or principles of conduct by which those two distinct classes of Europeans are actuated in their general demeanour? — I think that, in general, the names of India, es- pecially tne Mussulmen, have naturally a higher respect for military men than fur persons employed in trade, not from a comparison between the individual characters of officers and traders, but because in India every gentleman is supposed to be a soldier ; at the same, time, I believe that there are no description of persons who are more acute in distinguishing the motives and conduct of individuals, than the generality of the natives of India. Are you of opinion that the conduct of the higher classes of Europeans in India, including the mercantile part, is, generally speaking, maiked by a peculiai degree of forbearance, consideration, and respect to the manners aud habits of the natives; and do you, or do you not think that any ca-aial act of violence by a wild young man, would detract from their general good opinion of the British, which this conduct has established, or affect in their estimation, any but the persons committing the violence, or shake their confidence in the higher and more soberly disposed part of our countrymen? — From my experience, I believe, that the higher classes of Europeans in India, and indeed all classes who have resided some time in that country, are distinguished by great mddnes-, forbear- ance, and liberality towards the natives of India; I do not believe that one or two casual instancesof excess, on thepart of the young men, would shake the confidence which is placed, by the generality of the inhabitant", in the character and disposition of the higher classes of Luropean inha- 4 I biiants ; 610 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thos.S\Ja:/: Do you think that your servants would have preferred those dresses or astiens, if the) had been made of complies instead of cloth ? — I really suppose that they would have preferred the broad scarlet cloth of England, to the coarse grey comely of India. Are not shawls of foreign manufacture, in respect of India, particularly the Deccan ?— They are certainly of foreign manufacture, with respect to the central and southern parts of India. Are not some of the silks worn in India also of foreign manufacture ? — Some of the silks worn in India are certainly of foreign manufacture, such as those which come from China and Persia* Do the natives of India work in steel, or at all events, but very indiffer- ently ? — All their manufactures in steel which I have seen, appeared to me to be very imperfect, excepting the swords, which are made in the Deccan, and in the north part of India, and which, I believe, in tem- per and other property, are equal to the best swords made in any part of the world. Are not various steel articles in use among the natives, besides swords, and are not those imported ? — The only articles of steel in use in India, besides swords, which occur to me at present, are knives and scissars, ■which are generally imported from England, being very superior to those manufactured in India, You are understood to have said, in a former part of your examination, that there were shops for the sale of those and other foreign articles all through the Deccan ; may the Committee conclude from this, and your answers to the questions just proposed, that it is your opinion that the natives of India have no prejudice against an imported article, provided it suits their taste, and is within their means of purchase ? — I do not be- lieve that the natives of India have any prejudice to an imported article which suits their taste, and is adapted to useful purposes. Is not the tochin conna of the Nizam, mentioned by you in a former part of your examination, considered and exhibited as one of the currosi- " ties of his highness's palace ? — Those magazines which, for want of ano- ther expression, I called the tochin conna, are certainly never exhibited to strangers ; it was only by a particular request that 1 was permitted by the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 613 the Nizam to see them ; the room which is more particularly the tochin Thos. Sydenham, conna, or jewel office, as containing such jewels and valuable property in E q. use by the prince, is certainly never exhibited by the Nizam, probably v w ' from the fear of exciting the cupidity of those who go to bee it. May not strangers visiting the place from curiosity, and of known re- spectability, on an application being preferred to the Nizam, or the British resident, be allowed to see this tochin conna ? — I do not recollect any in- stance having occurred ; I never thought of making an application of that nature; and although the Nizam mi^ht oe disponed to grant a particular request on the part of the resident, I lather believe that Ins highness would consider that an intrusive and unpleasant request. Exclusive of the European articles in this tochin conna, has not the Nizam also similarly in store, great quantities of the finer manufactures of other foreign countries, such as shawls, silks, kincobs, jewellery, &c. ? — I do nor think that the present Nizam retains in his storehouses more com- modines of the descriptions alluded to in the question than are necessary for the general consumption of himself and his large family ; I know that it is frequently his'highness's custom to dispone of such jewels and presents, shawls, kincobs, and other articles of that description as are presented from time to time by the resident or principal natives of that court ; this may however be owing to the personal character of the present Nizam, whose ruling passion is avarice. Had not Tippoo a great collection of these articles, as well European as Asiatic, at Senngapatam ? — Tippoo had certainly a large collection of articles of Indian manufacture and produce, as well as Europea;:, in the different store-rooms belonging to the palace. Are not these tochin connas considered as containing a part of the wealth of the palace ?— They certainly c ntain part of the wealth of the palace ; but 1 believe the jewels not in common use, those of greater variety and price, bullion and specie, are generally kept concealed within the pre- cincts of the harams, or in some sufe part of the palace, which is known merely to the prince, and one or two confidential servants- Are not those European articles though hoarded in a tochin conna, con- sidered sources of considerable gratification to the persons receiving them.? —I believe that when such presents are made to a native prince, espe- cially such as are curious from their mechanism or fashion, that they afford considerable gratification to ihe person to whom they are pre- sented ;. 6H MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Thcs. Sydenham, sented ; the degree of value placed upon them, of course, will he regu- Esq. lated by the disposition of the prince ; in the case of the Nizam, it did not appear to me that the accumulation of European aiticles in his tochin conna afforded him any gratification whatsoever, either as a source of wealth or amusement. Did not the Nizam make presents to his favourites at court from among the stores of the tochin conna ? — 1 have already -tared, that the Nfzarri is of a most parsimonious disposition ; he sometimes made a few trifling presents to his favourites and confidential servants ; but in general, his presents were confined to those which are usually conferred on persons of distinction in receiving the investiture of lands, being called to new offices, and other occasions, where even the amount and nature of the present is regulated by long establ.shed usage. Are not the Mussulmen prone, from natural disposition, to every spe- cies of luxury and personal gratification ? — fhe Mus^lmen in geneial are certainly prone to every species of luxury and personal gratification. Are you of opinion, that the opening of the trade with India must ne- cessarily be attended with an unlicensed and unrestricted intercourse of Europeans in that country ? — I conceive, that a freedom of trade, cal- culated to produce every advantage that can be derived from a free trade could take place between this coun'ry and India without incurring the necessity of permitting Europeans to travel se the interior of India, or allowing them to remain at the presidencies, unrestricted by ihe go- vernment. In what manner do you think the interest of the private European mer- chan s and agents already established at the different presidencies in In- dia would be affected by the proposed opening of the trade with this country, and the admission of an increased number of Kuiopean traders at those settlements ? — 1 should conceive, that the establishment, at the different presidencies, of a number of new houses of business, and of per- sons employed in trade, would be at ended with injurious consequences to the houses that are now there est.. bi shed ; as ihe houses that are now at the different presidencies absorb the whole of that business, which would be "divided amongst a greater number, if other houses were to be establish- ed at those presidencies. Would n>;t the native. merchants and agents, and the natives generally, -be likely to be principally benefited by the opining of the trade ? — [ should EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 615 should conceive, that whatever advantage is to be derived at the different Thos. Sydenham, presidencies by traders, from the opening of the trade, would be derived Esq. by the native agents, iatherthan by, the European houses of business, al- ready established at those presidencies. Do not you think that improvements might be made in the various arti- cles of European manufacture sent to Iii q. degree. < ^ ' Has the state of the market in India for European manufactures im- proved, to your knowledge ? — To my knowledge, the state of the markets in India for European commodities is very bad indeed. Do you mean that answer to extend up to the present time ? — Up to the last accounts from Bengal, and for several years past. Were there any reasonable hope of profitably extending the export trade in manufactures from this country to India, would you, and other traders in that department, increase the quantity of capital which you employ in the prosecution of it ? — I conceive they would ; I would myself. In your opinion, is there, upon the whole, as great a quantity of British capital new employed in the exportation of European manufactures to India, as can possibly be employed in that way with a prospect of profit ? — I conceive, at present, there is a great deal too much capital employed in that way. If the facilities of export were still further increased, is it ycur opinion that the trade would answer ? — I do not think it would answer. On the supposition that the British trader were freely allowed to freight his own ship with European manufactures, is it your opinion that such a trader would find a sale for hrs cargo among the natives of India? — I conceive, at present, there are more goods in India than can be dis- posed of. On the supposition that a free trade were established in India, and that private ships were to be freighted with cargoes of cutlery, hardware, and other articles, which the natives are known to use in a limited degree, is it your opinion that such export trade would prove profitable to the persons employed in it ?- I conceive, if they were sent out in any large quantities it would be almost u total loss. Is it your opinion that any saving which the private trader might effect, either by the cheapness of freight, or by the convenience bif sailing at his own time, or in any other manner, by the alledged efficiency of free ad- venture, 624 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert 3/orris, venture, would compensate for the loss which he might be expected to sustain on his sales in India? — I should conceive, if the trade were thrown open to every individual, as much as he pleased, the quantity of goods sent out would be so great they could not find a sale. In the event of an open trade, do you conceive that any expectations which the British manufacturers may entertain of an increased maiktt for their produce in India wou'd be realized, or the reverse ? — I think it would be the reverse, most undoubtedly. Would the private trader, exporting goods to India in his own vessel, trade on the whole as cheaply as the private trade, employing, under the present system, a given amount of the privileged tonnage allowed by the Company ? — 1 do not conceive he would save more in going in a private vessel than under the present system ; I allude to the captains and officers who save their freight; I conceive, that the difference of in-urance and other expenses upon a private vessel, would counterbalance any advantage they might receive. You are requested to answer the last question, with referenc to the tonnage allowed to private traders by the Company, agreeably to the Act of I7Q3. — Sending out their own ships they certainly would have an ad- vantage in chusing their own time, more ihan at present ; but there would be expenses upon their own ships, I conceive, fully as great as upon the present system of sending out under the regulations now in force. Upon the supposition that the trader were not to freight a whole ship, is it your opinion, that any material saving would be effected from the cir- cumstance of their sailing at their own t>me ? — There would ce no material saving, but they would have an advantage in the market. Describe in what manner ? — By going at their regular seasons they would be more certain of their market. Supposing a merchant wishing to send goo-ls to India should not freight a whole ship with those goods, but should wait till the ship was fully freighted by other traders joinii.g with him, would he in that case gain any advantage by sailing at his own time ? — I conceive he would be under the same uncertainty a.< under the present s)stem of the Company; he must wait till his ship was loaded, unless he could load the ship entirely himself ; he would not send her with a half cargo. In EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 615 ' Tn time of war, must not the ship of a private trader be liable to uncer- Robert Morris, tainties with respect to the period of her sailing ? — She would be confined Esq for convoy in the same manner as the Company's ships, and equally uncer- ' v -' tain. On the whole is it your opinion, that in the event of a free trade, the export trade to India could be conducted with greater cheapness than' at present ? — I conceive very little, particularly during war. On the supposition that the export trade could, under the circumstances described, be conducted with somewhat greater cheapness, is it your opinion that there would be a correspondent extension of the sale of Eu- ropean commodities in the native markets of India ? — I do not conceive there would be any extension, further than what there is at present. Is it then your opinion, that the present system supplies every facility of exportation which can reasonably be required ? — I conceive so. Can you state, whether the practice of making what are called salt water invoices is usual among the officers of the Company's marine service ? — I should conceive not among any honest men, if I understand what is meant by it, a false invoice ; I have never known any man of respectability attempt such a thing. Explain what you understand by the term, a salt water invoice ? — I con- ceive a false charge, an increased charge laid upon the goods, which I think no honest man would attempt. In point of fact, is it usual with the Company's officers to make out false invoices ? — Not with any men of respectability ; nor do I conceive it would have any avail, because every merchant of any standing in India, knows the price of goods as well as we do in London. Would it 'be agreeable or contrary to the interest of those officers to adopt such fraudulent practices ? — In some cases it might be to their ad- vantage ; in many it would not ; because many goods are bought at so much a piece when they land there, or by the weight, for instance, dead weight ; iron, lead, or such articles, are bought at so much a cwt. or so much a maund, without reference to the original charge. Do the officers of the ships of the Company usually purchase the articles which constitute their investments at long credits ? — Many of them do ; others do not ; those who have money pay for them. 4 L When 6 26 Wf NOTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Robert Morris, When the investment is laid in at a long credit, is that fact known fo Eflq. the buyers in India ? — I believe the invoices are generally made out nearly at one rate, supposing twelve months credit ; those who have money re- ceive a discount for their money. What discount ? — It varies very much. Are you acquainted with the commerce of the Eastern or Malay Archi- pelago ?— No, I am not particularly. Have not you visited those islands ? — I have been at some of them ; I have gone through the Straits of Malacca to China ; but I have not been among the Eastern Islands. ■ Have you visited any of the islands off the eastern coast of Africa ?— Madagascar and Johanna, in particular. Have you resided in any of those islands ? — No, I never resided j I have been there on a voyage out to India, stopping for provisions. Have you spent weeks there at anytime? — Yes, one or two weeks; I think I was ©nee fourteen days at Madagascar. Are' you able to state, whether any of those islands are likely to furnish a demand for European manufactures ? — None of them, in any degree. Are the people in a state of barbarism or civilization ? — Almost in a State of nudity, with only a piece of cloth about them ; both in Madagas- car and Johanna they use a small quantity of cutlery and fire-arms ; and probably a little coarse broad cloth. Is net the government of Johanna the most civilized of the governments tstablished in any of those islands I — It is. Is the island of Johanna likely 11 to furnish a demand for European articles I — I should conceive it is not. (Examined by the Committee.) Can you state, nearly, to what per centage may amount the advantages the officers o£ the Company's service possess in carrying goods free of lrei^ht, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 627 freight, and other charges, and the saving of insurance ? — I should con- Robert Morns, ceive not less than 15 per cent. Esq. Have you any acquaintance, in regard to the principal settlements,Madras and Calcutta, as to thestate of the progress ofBritish articles manufactured there under British artificers, and by native labourers ? — At Calcutta, in particular, there are a variety of articles which they manufacture ex- tremely well; all articles in leather, furniture, plate, carriages of all kinds, and upholstery goods ; those are the principal. Many articles of metals ? — I do not think they work so much in the metals, except gold and silver, not the common metals. Are there tailors and shoemakers ? — Yes, in great abundance, furnishing articles for much less than we get them for in this country ; there are also blacksmiths, iron workers for shipping, rope makers, sail makers, extremely good. Are these articles considered to be of a good quality ? — They are of a very good quality, in proportion to the difference of price between those and what are carried from this country. According to your observation, has the import of those articles now made there, and which were formerly imported from Britain, very much declined ? — It has vejy much decreased certainly ; particularly shoes, boots, carriages, and canvas, and a variety of others. Do you think that gradually that may most materially affect the trade in those articles from Great Britain ? — I think the manufacture of those articles will increase considerably in India, and consequently affect the trade from this country. How long were you in the India trade ? — About three and twenty years ; I made ten voyages. Did you find your trade, upon the whole, advantageous or otherwise ? — Upon the whole, I certainly found it advantageous. [The Witness withdrew. [Adjourned till to morrow, 1 1 o'clock. 4La 628 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jovis, 6° die Mail 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. ROBERT MORRIS, Esq. was again called in, and further examined by the Committee as follows : Robert Morris, ARE the Eastern Islands amply supplied with such British manufactures Esq. as they require, and at as cheap rates as could be expected under the cir- 1 — -— .y. ,. ) cumstances of an open trade ? — I conceive they are at present. Would or would not a single cargo of 350 or 400 tons of British manu- factures, be as much or more than sufficient for all their demands ? — I do not conceive they would consume a single cargo of from 300 to 400 tons ; it would not find purchasers, except at Java. If every subject of the United Kingdom had access to the whole of the Eastern Archipelago, could the successful export of British manufac- tures be increased to those ports? — I do not conceive it would to any ma- terial degree. I-f the trade were thus thrown open to the Eastern seas, do you enter- tain any doubt that every commander of a ship would be able to supply himself with tea, if such were the object of his speculation, without going to Canton ? — I think a very large quantity of tea might be purchased in that way, which would be brought down by the Chinese junks, and by the country ships returning to Bombay. - Do you think that every commander, if such were his desire, might have the means of supplying himself with any quantity of tea in that way? — That is so indefinite a question, a number of ships going out; I think three or four ships ; several ships might be loaded in that way. Whole cargoes ? — Yes. What sized ships ? — From three to four hundred tons or more ; I should think EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 629 think five or six ships of 400 tons each, or almost any number, could pro- Robert MorriF, Gure the article ; it is tlie constant practice of the ships returning to B jmbay, Esq. or to any part of India, to bring their returns in tea, if they can find a S Y * vent for it. Are there any means in those seas of controul by manifests or clearances, or any other functions of revenue officers ? — It would be extremely diffi- cult to prevent a traffic of that kind in those seas; there are no establish- ments of any kind in those islands, nor anywhere there; except at the Company's settlements there is no check whatever. Have the goodness to say, whether it is usual to deduct the discounts and drawbacks from the invoices, when the goods are sold at a percentage upon the invoice? — When two merchants purchase goods, the one for credit, and the other for ready money, if they both go to the same market, I conceive the one who has money may take the advantage of receiving the discount or interest for his monev that he pays ; the other man who does not pay money exhibits his invoices at the same rate, and they both sell alike, he does not deduct his discount ; but the drawback on glass and other articles is now generally given up to the merchant abroad. Was that drawback given up until very lately ? — No, I believe it was not until very lately. Is not the drawback very heavy upon glass ? — Upon common glass it is very heavy ; upon cut and fine glass, which is principally used by the na- tives, there is very little drawback. What is the drawback upon common glass ? — Upon window glass and common glass, probably 25 per cent. Does not window glass form a very considerable part of the export of glass ware to India? — Not a considerable part in value; it does in quantity. Does not it form a very considerable part, if not the most considerable part of the export of glass ware to India ? — No ; I conceive not one- fourth in value for Bengal, or any part of India, and not above one-third in quantity. In regard to the invoices on which the goods are sold in India, the Committee is to understand, that the merchant who purchases his goods for 630 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Bobert Morris, for ready money, and the one who purchases his goods at 12 months Esq. credit, exhibits the same kind of invoice ? — The same invoice exactJy. V «v — ' What is the discount usually allowed for prompt payment ? — It varies very considerably upon different articles, from 2~ to 15 and 20 on a few. Selling by this mode, you would not consider as selling upon a salt water invoice ? — Certainly not. [The Witness withdrew. WILLIAM DA VIES, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows ; Wm. Davies, Mr. Jackson."] You were formerly a purser on board one of the Com- Esq. pany's ships ; were you not ? — Yes, I was. "v- How many voyages did you act as purser, and during those whither did you go ? — Four voyages, to China and India, having touched at South America, Africa, Sumatra, and Java. Is not the purser, generally, a considerable trader upon his own account, or in conjunction with his commander; and in the latter case has he not generally the management of the investment ? — I was a partner with the captain of the ship, and had the chief management of the investment. Have you, since that period, during the last ten years, been acting as a merchant trading to the East Indies ? — Not for the last ten years, speaking from the present day ; for the last three years I have employed my capital as a ship owner ; ten years prior to those three I employed a large capital as an East India merchant. You were in partnership with a house in Madras, were you not ?— I have a partner in London of the name of Card, who was a partner in a house of considerable note in Madras, the house of Hope and Company, for sixteen years ; a man exceedingly well acquainted with the details of trade at Madras. You had a mercantile establishment at Madras as well as in London, had you not? — It was not precisely that, but we did consign our goods to Madras under peculiar advantages, our house being in London. Was not youT house regarded as one of the principal houses trading to Madras, as an export house ? — I think it was ; I am of opinion that no merchant EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 63 1 merchant of the city of London consigned so large a quantity of Euro- Win* Davies, pean goods to Madras, as the house that I was at the head of. Esq. Did you during that period endeavour with great enterprise and no want of capital, to extend the export of British articles to the East Indies, in as great a degree as they were capable of extension ? — I was very desirous oi increasing the trade, with the hope of obtaining a larger prorit ; we did not want capital; we had a surplus capital ; nor did we extend our cicdit to any thing like the extent we might have done, if it had been an object to us to have enlarged our trade. Was there any want of activity or enterprize to increase the export, if it had been possible? — I think not ; I do not think it requires much talent to export goods to India, where there is an amply supply of capital. State the generaj success of the last few years of that sort of speculation? —The trad e to India, prior to the year 1793, was a profitable trade; from the year l"9)> to 18o6, it bore a fair profit; since that period, I am of opinion that no merchant in London could have gained by any investment exported to any part of India. To what do you impute that circumstance? — There were certain facilities given by the Act of Parliament of 179-* to the private traders ; but there were certain clogs; in tnc year l-o6, there were greater facilities given, and that, I presume, was one cause, with, perhaps, trade to other parts of the world being more stagnant than it had been before that period, so as to induce merchants to ship more largely than they had done before ; and the Indian market having before had an ample supply, the profits upon that surplus export were very small indeed; I know my house was not a gainer, and 1 know that I had equal advan- tages to whatany other house in London could have had. Do you mean, that since about the year 1806*, generally speaking, the exports have been greater than the fair demand for them, consistently with a fair profit? — Since the year l*;o6, I think that the exports have been greater than the demand, consistently with a fair expectation of profit. From> that period^ generally speaking, has not the export part of the trade been rather a losing concern^ than otherwise? — I am of opinion that the export trade to the private merchant has been, since the year 1 806*, ■v — "Y- 053 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ll'm. Davics, I806, a losing concern ; generally speaking, it is possible that some Esq. particular articles may have produced a profit; but speaking of invest- ■J meats generally, I am quite sure that the export trade since the year 1806", up to the present time, taking tlie average, must have been a losing concern to every merchant in London, who had to pay freight, insurance and agency. Describe to the Committee what you mean by the additional facilities which you allude to as having taken place in 180&r — By the Act of 1793, there was an allowance of 3000 tons, under certain restrictions; the private traders complained of those restrictions; then the Company allowed greater facilities; it was not necessary to give the notice of six months prior to the shipping of their goods ; but after the year 1806, I believe it was possible, at least. I understood so from the shipping clerk at the East India House, that any merchant, applying for tonnage, might have it to what extent, under 10,000 tons, he wanted. Here is a paper, dated " East India House, 12th November IK06'," containing the "terms and conditions under which the East India Company are " willing to furnish tonnage," exclusive, of that to be provided by the Act of the 33d of his present Majesty, cap. 52. . [The Paper was read as follows.:] " 1. — That the applications for tonnage be received on the first '•' Wednesday in the months of September, December, and March, " in each year; and that such applications be indorsed, " Private ' c applications for tonnage;" and that anv application made in the " intermediate months, unless required by advertisement, will be l i considered only in the ensuing quarter. " 2. — That ail applications be made by the persons who actually ■" ship the goods, and not by any agent or clerk, and specify that " the same goods are bond Jide intended to be sent to India, on " account of the persons making the application, or on commission " received from persons in India, whose names must be inserted in " the applications ; and the person making application must engage. " to verify the same by affidavit, if so required by the Court of " Directors. " 3. — That every application do specify the tonnage of measur- " able and heavy goods respectively, the particular articles of which " each species of tonnage consists, the presidencies to which they " are to be consigned, and the periods when the same will be ready " to be shipped. «' 4.— That EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 633 " 4. — That no material deviation be permitted in the articles of JjPmi D " tonnage specified in any request, after such request shall have ; >n " been granted. V v " 5. — That no application for a less quantity than one ton be " granted. " 6". — That the Court of Directors, in order to encourage the " export of a sufficient supply of necessary articles for consumption " in India, do not intend to restrain the exportation wholly to the " letter of the Act, which limits the articles to such as are of the '•' growth, produce, or manufacture of Great Britain ; but the " Court reserve to themselves the power of limiting the exportation " of articles which are not of the growth, produce, or manufacture '• of Great Britain, or the exportation of which by individuals is " not permitted by the Act, to such quantities as the Court may " j'jdge proper : And they further reserve to themselves a power to " reduce the quantities of any particular description of goods " applied for by any individual, which may appear to them to " operate to the exclusion of others. " 7- — That not more than fifty chests of wine, or fifty hogsheads " of beer, belonging to one person, be laden on any ship. " 8. — That the tonnage of wine or chests of liquors on freight, be " calculated at two chests, containing twelve dozen quart bottles " each, to the ton, and not at three chests to the ton, as has " occasionally been the practice heretofore. " 9- — That the tonnage of carriages on freight, be calculated as " follows: viz. " A coach or barouche - 10 tons " Chariot 8 — " Phaeton ------ b' — " Curricle - - - - - - 4§ — " Two- wheel chaise - - - - 2 — " 10. — That not more than two four-wheeled carriages, or four u two-wheeled carriages, be laden on any ship, nor any one house be " permitted to ship more than one carriage on each ship. " 11. — That if quicksilver be allowed to be shipped on freight, *' no expense or risk thereby be incurred by the Company or u owners of the ship. " 12. — That the peace rate of freight for goods shipped in Eng- " land on extra ships tor India, be at a rate not exceeding £b. per " ton ; and that such additional freight be paid for goods shipped " in England in war, as the circumstances of the tipe may render " necessary. 4 M " 13.— That 634 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE W.n. Dtivies, " 13. — That the peace rate of freight homeward shall not exceed Esq. " „rfl I. per ton ; and that such additional freight he paid on goods * v ' " laden in India, on extra ships in war, as the circumstances of the " t me may render necessary. " 14. — That wine freighted from Madeira to India on the Com- " pany's extra ships, heat the rate of j£b per pipe of 1 10 gallons. " 15. — That the same rate of freight he paid lor wine sent from " Madeira to any part of India, both in peace and war. " lb'. — That the freight of wine brought from India to England, " he j£8. per pipe in time of peace, and Jl.\'2 per pipe in time of " war; and that this freight be paid previous to the delivery of " the wine in England, and charged at the above rates respectively, " whether the pipes contain the full quantity or not. " IJ. — That persons requiring tonnage for wine from Madeira, " to be landed in India, or to be carried to India, and from thence " to England, be permitted to lade in articles for Madeira, freight " free, to the amount of the tonnage they may be allowed in wine, " and that two pipes be calculated equal to one ton. " 18.- -That the ships be allowed to remain at Madeira two " working days for every twenty tons of goods they may have been " permitted either to carry or to receive on board at the Island, " (the days of arrival and sailing not included) and that if the agents " of the shippers should not complete their lading within that " period, the ships do proceed on their voyage, and the freight paid " in England do thereby become forfeited. " 19. — That all persons do make a deposit in the Company's " treasury, within fifteen days after their requests to ship goods or " wine shall have been granted by the Court of Directors, of the " amount of freight, chargeable on such goods or wine, at the rates " above-mentioned, under the regulations of the act. " '20. — That the Court of Directors do reserve to themselves the " right of allotting to any of the ships in their service bound to the " respective places of consignment, the goods or wine, in such pro- " portions as they may think proper ; at the same time the Court " will endeavour to comply, as far as circumstances will admit, with " the particular wishes of the proprietors respecting the shipping of " their goods or wine. " 21. — That if the goods allotted as above mentioned be not sent " on board the ships previous to the day appointed by the Court for ships clearing out at the Custom-House, the freight paid on such goods shall be forfeited. " 11.— That it EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 635 " 22. — That should the produce of such goods or wine be paid Ww. Dav.es, •* into the Company's treasury at either of the three Presidencies, E&fy " or Bencoulen, bills will be granttd on the Court of Directors, on l v " the terms of the season allowed to other individuals. " 23. — That the proprietors of goods shall be exactly on a similar " footing with the Company in respect to short delivery, as is con- " tained in the terms and conditions under which the ships shall " have been engaged. " 24. — That each shipper of goods, jointly with the Companr, " shall be entitled to all allowance for ship damages and short de- " livery, not exceeding £ A per ton on their respective tonnage ; that ". is to say, ,jf4 per ton to such persons who occupy the like pro- " portion of tonnage out and home, whether the damage be on the outward or homeward goods, and Jl'2 per ton on the outward goods; and the like sum on the homeward goods, when they belong to dirk-rent proprietors, averaging on the whole at the rate of J_ 5 per ton on the builder's measurement, agreeably to the termo under which the ships shall have been engaged. '.* 25. — I ha? in all other cases, the owners of goods will be sub- ject to the same decisions and determinationi only, as the Com- pany themselves are liable to. " 26 — That the tonnage of all goods (except the articles before mentioned) be calculated according to the computation of ton- nage uSed by the Company. " 27. — That three days at least be appointed by the Court for " shipping goods on boasdofeach ship appointed to carry out the same; and that public notice shall be given, at least three days ** before such day of shipping, by the officer for private trade out- " wards. " 28. — That not any order will be given by the officer in the " private trade department outwards, for goods allowed to be shipped " on freight, until the several persons who are permitted to export " the same shall have delivered into the office an exact account of " the tonnage of each ai tide which they have been allowed to ship. " '2 1 j. — That before any goods shall be shipped, the same shall be " registered with the officer for private tiade outwards, in books to " be kept by him for that purpose ; which registry shall describe " the marks and numbers of each bale or package of g jods to be ". shipped, and the amount of the whole tonnage allowed to the " ptrson so shipping; and all goods which shall be so shipped, " without being so registced. wdl be considered as goods illicitly shipped, and the goods will be subject to such seizure and for- 4 M 2 " feitures; i< <( 636 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OK THE Wtn. Davie*, (< feitures ; and the owners, shippers, and agents concerned therein Esq. " to such forfeitures and penalties, as any person shall be sublet to *— — y ' " by law, for carrying on trade to and from the East Indies without " the Company's licence. " 30. — That the said officer for private trade outwards, upon " such registry as aforesaid, shall give an order or license nnder his " hand for the shipping of such goods, which license, together with " the goods, shall be carried to the East India wharf to the proper " officers there, who shall examine the same, to see that the packages " contain only the sorts of goods of which notice shall have been *' given; and that they do not exceed in tonnage the quantity of •*' goods allowed to such shipper ; and all goods exceeding the al- " lowed tonnage shall be returned and taken back, unless the com- " mittee of shipping of the said Company, upon special application, " shall see fit to allow the shipping thereof, which it shall be com- " petent for them to do upon previous payment of double freight " for the additional quantity of goods shipped, exceeding the " quantity appertaining to such shipper as aforesaid, if the same " shall amount to one ton or upwards, or single freight if under " one ton. " 31. — That after the goods shall have been examined as afore- " said, the same shall be sent from the East India harf on board " of hoys to be employed by the Company, the water side charges " and voyage being previously paid by the owner of the said goods, " in default of which payment, the goods may be stopped. " 32. — That on the goods being shipped, bills of lading shall be *' signed for the same in triplicate, by the commander or purser, which " shall be delivered to the shipper of the goods or his agent, the '.' persons who sign such bills of lading being allowed, if they think " proper, to add the following memorandum in regard to the deli- " very of the goods at their consigned port, viz "To be delivered " at the consigned pori, provided the destination of the ship shall " not be changed by the East india Company or their agents abroad, " or by the act of any of His Majesty's officers.' " Do you know whether, between the period of \7Q3 and 1806, the East India Company did not make progressive alterations in the facilities to be given to private traders, according as experience might seem to re- quire ? — I do not know what progressive facilities might have been given to the private trader, for I never found any difficulties; I have not met with any obstacle since the year 17Q3 ; I have always had as much ton- nage as I thought it desirable, or good policy on my part as a merchant, to EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 637 to ship to Tndia ; but this paper speaks for itself, and says, " Exclusive JVm. Davies, " of that provided by the Act of 17K3 j" therefore, I presume that was an Escj. additional grant of indulgence; there were regulations in 1»02 which I * v ' am well acquainted with; but the point that 1 am desirous of speaking to, is this, that I find from the year 1806 the trade fell off in point of profit, and therefore I do in some degree attribute it to the greater faci- cilities that were given in the year 1806 ; I have before said, that from 1793 to 18Ufi, there was a fair profit upon the trade ; but that since the 3'ear 1806 ro the present day, generally speaking, I am sure that inves- tments that have been sent to India have not been productive of profit. Do you impute to the greater latitude of export that has been allowed since 1806, the decrease of your profit as a merchant to those parts? — I believe, that since the year i8o6, an increase of imports of British manufactmes were received in India, and I have reason to know, that a great part of those imports were consumed by the climate of the country; that there was not a ready sale for them : I was in correspondence with one of the first houses at Madras, and they have informed me, at dif- ferent periods, of their having goods in their warehouses to an extent amounting to above «£ 100,000, and that information I believe to be correct. Generally speaking, from about the period of 1806, has the market in India for articles of British manufactures been in a state of glut or other- wise ? — It has been in a state of glut. Previously to the period of 1806, as a great exporting merchant, had you found from the East Ii-dia Company, regarding it as a time of warfare, and looking to the political difficulties of the period, the full facilities which you had a right to expect for the exportation of your merchan- dize ? — I have in the office at the East India House occasionally met with some very trifling delays, but they were very trifling, as to obtaining an order for the shipment of my goods, or my clerk being obliged to go a second time ; I have met with trifling delays of that kind ; but I never met with any obstacle to the shipping generally, since the year 1793, or at such periods as I think were fair and reasonable ; every mer- chant would wish his cargo to get first to market ; but if I had a ship of my own, and another man was in a similar situation, there would be the same sort of struggle. Supposing the trade to be laid open, would it more frequently happen that the whole cargo should belong to a single trader, or that a variety of traders 633 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE U r m DavicSy traders should be concerned in it ? — It would take a large capital for an. E^q. individual merchant, or an house, to freight a ship to India of 5 or 600 tons, which is the smallest class, and I presume it is a risk ; I am sure, at the present day, it must be a risk that no prudent merchant would em- bark in. Do you think, that under the circumstances of an open trade, the more general trading would be by a variety of owners or traders on one ship ? — If the trade were thrown open, I think that there would be an increased diffi- culty, applying the words in an enlarged sense, to what exists at present in obtaining freight ; I have been offered freight as low as £\. per ton ; but knowing what 1 do of the Indian market, it was not sufficient to induce me to send an investment upon those terms, nor do I think that any indi- vidual merchant could now freight a ship on as low terms as the East India Company at this present day obtain their freight ; I am the proprietor of a small ship that was built at an out-port at Chester ; I bought her with her stores, at the very reasonable sum of £l 3,200, by paying ready mo- ney ; I have since fitted out that ship, and she has gone one voyage in the East India Company's service, at a higher freightage than they now give by nearly £6. per ton, the result of that, was to me a losing concern, be- cause the Committee should understand, the individual merchant, to a certain degree, becomes an insurer of the safety of the Company's cargo ; when this ship of mine returned, the Company charged me neaily £6 000. for damage done their goods; now, if this ship had remained as a West India ship, the very leak that did me this injury, would have been rather serviceable to her as a West India ship, because it would have checked the dry rot. Do you mean that the Company are so circumspect with respect to the goodness of their ships, in order to preserve the safety of their cargoes, that they exact a degree of quality and repair that leaves the ship owner but a very moderate profit ? — I have reason to believe that I fit my ships as cheap as any merchant in London can do; there is no reason why it should not be so. Is the Committee to understand that your adventure in this ship, not- withstanding all these circumstances of care and economy, was to your- self rather an unprofitable concern ? — It has proved an unpiofitable con- cern. You are understood to have said, that you apprehend a prudent mer- chant EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 639 chant would rarely be found a single freighter of a whole ship? — I think. Wm. -Davics, not, at this present time. Esq. i v > In case of an open trade, would not the ships that should proceed to India be generally freighted by a variety of persons ? — I presume so. Supposing a vessel to be freighted by a variety of persons, must they not, in the nature of things, frequently be very dependent upon each other's convenience, subject to the delay occasioned by each other, and upon the whole, quite as likely to be delayed, as in any instance, according to your experience, you have known to take place with regard to the Company's extra ships, under the Act of 1793 ? — I am of opinion that they would. Have you had any opportunity of understanding the nature of the trade to Bombay ? — As a merchant, I have made consignments to Bombay ; I believe about 1805 or 1806, and they did not turn out profitable. Do you happen to know the usual cargoes which commanders of vessel, take out to Bombay, what proportion may consist of merchandize, and. if any, what proportion of bullion? — I believe the greater proportion is in bullion, that they may be at a certainty of purchasing a cotton cargo, to take from thence to China. If then at Bombay there were an unsupplied demand for British manu- factures, would it not answer the end of the commanders to take out such., in preference to bullion ? — I think it would, because I know that many of them are obliged to borrow money in this country to obtain bullion with ; and I, at this period, have two gentlemen in the capacity of agents at Bombay, who are superintending the building of a ship; the building of that ship will require a capital of certainly not less than ,£60,000, and it would have been extremely convenient to me to have sent 20 or ,£30,000 worth of goods to that country, rather than to have had bills drawn upon me. Assuming there to be a great Parsee population at Bombay, and thai they assimulate more to European manners than any other description of natives, has not the Bombay market been supplied with European articles almost to a degree of glut, for several years past ? — My having made con- signments there, to a house of great respectability, who I have no doubt exerted themselves as much as any agents could for their constituents, and the returns having to me been unprofitable, is fair ground for my presum- ing that the market has been overstocked. Besides 610 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Win. Davics, Besides your own personal adventure, according to your general know- Esq. ledge and communication with other adventurers, commanders, and ' owners, is such your impression ? — Such is the impression on my mind. ■v— Can you inform the Committee, whether the natives of India are in a progressive and apparently increasing disposition, to manufacture among themselves such articles as have been usually exported from this country, of British manufactures? — 1 know that the natives of India possess suffi- cient talent, if properly directed, to manufacture many of the things that the Europeans require in that country, or that the higher class of the na- tives of the country may be inclined to purchase, such as carriages ; leather of all sorts for the army ; boots and shoes, I think nearly as good as Ho- by's; watches, I believe they do not make the inside of the watch, but I know they put them together there; and cabinet ware also ; and I know no reason why, if properly directed, the talents of the Hindoo or the Ma- hometan, may not become as useful in the making of all the requisites there, as any mechanic in this country ; I need not add, that the price of labour must operate powerfully. According to your experience and observation, has this disposition and faculty been increasing or otherwise ? — It has been increasing since I first knew India, considerably. Assuming, that under an open trade, access to every description of Bri- tish subjects would be given to India, including artificers of various de- scriptions, and looking to the immense disproportion in the price of labour between that country and this, are you of opinion, that this disposition to manufacture what are called European or British articles, may increase to such a degree as materially and seriousiv to supercede the necessity of im- portation into India of such articles? — I have of late perceived, on the part of traders of the City of London, what I consider too great an incli- nation to become merchants ; and I do believe, that there are many of them, and many of the mechanics, who, if they had the power of estab- shiling an agent in India, would consign some goods to him, and send out some raw materials for him to manage there, and in consequence of the low price of labour in India, they might get them wrought up so as to un- desrell anything exported from this country. Under the circumstances of an open trade and unlimited access to some or all of the ports in India, do you apprehend that such a course of things would take place ? — That must be matter of opinion ; but I am decidedly of opinion ihat it would tend to that effect. Has EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 641 Has the nature of the Indian trade been such for some years past, as to Wm.Davies, have given you encouragement to continue it, or discouraged you to such Esq. a degree as to have induced you to withdraw yourself from it ? — I had a / "~ capital exceeding ^50,000 employed in the Indian trade, which I have for the last three years withdrawn trom it. Inform the Committee whether your inducement for having withdrawn this considerable capital, was, that notwithstanding the continued exertion of activity and enterprise, still the East-India trade became unprofitable r — That was my motive for withdrawing my capital ; the want of a fair mercantile return. Do you impute the want of that fair mercantile return, to the extent of export to India ?— I do. Have you had any opportunity of being acquainted with the nature of the trade to the Eastern Archipelago, or any of the islands in the eastern seas? — -I have been at Sumartra, I have been at Java and Batavia. Has it been an endeavour on the part of your house to increase the ex- port of British manufactures to any of those Eastern Islands ? — There has been at all times a desire on the part of our house to increase our trade, because we have had, during a great part of the time, a surplus capital. "We wrote to our correspondents in India to ask whether there was a chance of doing any good business in the* Eastern Islands, and we were informed by them they had tried the experiment ; that there was a great glut of goods at Madras ; that they had sent the goods to Banda and Amboyna, and had found the sales not productive of profit. As far as your knowledge has extended, as to the success of such attempts to export British manufactures to the Eastern Islands, have they or not succeeded ? — They have not. Is it your opinion that the Eastern Islands are amply supplied with such British manufactures as they require, and at as cheap a rate as could be reasonably expected under the circumstances of an open trade? — I am of opinion so ; and my reasons for having formed that opinion are these : lately I had a ship, which it would have been my interest, as an owner, to have sent to Batavia, but the captain of the ship remonstrated, that he would be a loser by going there, as the demand for European goods was so small. 4 N In f 13 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE {^vft. Duyi&, In your opinion, would not a single cargo of 3 50 or 400 tons of Esq. British manufactures, be as much, or more than sufficient for all their demands ? — As to a single cargo I should hesitate ; but certainly two cargoes, in my opinion, would be more than an annual supply. If every subject of the United Kingdom had access to the whole of the Eastern Archipelago, could the successful export of British manufac- tures be increased to those ports ?— I think not; the Company have granted licences to a class of ships within the last two years, between twenty and thirty, to go to the eastward of the Cape of Good Hope; some of those have gone to the Isle of France, and from thence to Ba- lavia, leoking more to the homeward bound cargo for profit, as I am led to believe.. According to the best of your knowledge and experience, have such $hips succeeded with regard to any outward cargo they may have taken of British manufactures ? — The result of the experiment is not yet well known. Do you continue of opinion, that the cargoes of two vessels of 350 tons burthen, or thereabouts, consisting of British manufactures, would be more than enough for their annual supply ? — I am decidedly of opinion, that two vessels laden with British manufactures would be more than ample for the supply of all the Eastern Islands: my reason for thus thinking is, that I was at Batavia some years ago ; the ship that I was in qrrived there first ; she ran away from the fleet, in the hope of getting to* a good marker, knowing that if the three ships which left England together should arrive at the same period, they must hurt each other ; the ship that I was in arrived there first ; she did sell part of the goods that she had, but could not find a market for the whole - t the other two came in about three weeks afterwards, and I believe did not, between them, sell to the extent of a thousand pounds in amount. Was not Batavia considered as the commercial emporium of the eastern seas ? — It was the great city of the Dutch. Was it the great commercial station of those parts I 1 — Yes, it was. If the trade were thus thrown open to the eastern seas, do you entertain the least doubt of every, commander of a ship being able to supply him- self with tea, if such were the object of his speculation, without going to Canton? — I am decidedly of opinion that he would have the power of obtain- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 643 obtaining an ample supply of tea, because the Chinese junks might bring Wm. Drtvief, it down to either Java or Sumatra, and I think, for lucre, the Malays Esq. would give all possible aid. <-. v •» The Committee is to understand as your opinion, that though hopeless, as to the increase of the export of British manufactures to the eastern seas, you have no doubt of the means of an unlimited purchase of teas therein, without going to Canton, should the party be so disposed ? — When 1 was at Batavia, tea might have been purchased in almost any quantity ; the Chinese junks bring it from Canton to Batavia ; and I have no doubt whatever, if you were to hold out to them an ample inducement, you may have it in any quantity you please. Have you happened to make any distinct experiment as to the export of woollens, to see with what advantage you could export them to India ? *— Yes, I have. State the circumstances ? — I had occasion to send Out certain supplies for the army in India, among the rest I sent out the facings for their clothing; I have sent out at different periods prior to the year 1806, a large quantity of woollens, but I found that the Company at all times could undersell me. To what do you impute their thus underselling you ? — I presume a de- termination on their part to get rid of a certain quantity of goods, because I do not believe that they purchased upon better terms than I did. Do you mean from an anxiety to dispose of a certain quantity of British produce or manufactures? — What the motive of the Company may have been, whether a patriotic motive, or whether in pursuit of gain, 1 shall not take upon myself to presume ; but the fact was, that they did undersell me, and I am of opinion, that they must have lost by the sale of those cloths, because I am decidedly of opinion, that my purchases Were as favourable in this country, as theirs could have been. Were you induced to repeat the experiment, or did you abandon the hope of rivalship with the Company ? — No ; I think it would have been idle on the part of an individual merchant, to attempt to cope with the sovereigns of the country. You mean that, with that sort of patriotism on the part of the Company, those attempts to give every possible chance to the export of British ma- 4 N 2 nufactures, 644 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wm. Davits, nufactures, you could not encounter without being a commercial loser ?— Esq. My object in exporting to India, was at all times in pursuit of gain ; I i y — ' had no other object; for a merchant, when speaking as a trader, to boast of his amor patriae, is idle ; I found that I could not cope with the Company. Referring to your known high character and station in society, have you the least personal interest, one way or the other, in this question, between opening the trade to the out-ports, or keeping it as it is ? — You put the question seriously to me as a gentleman ; I will tell you, it was impossible tor government to have drawn a plan more beneficial to my individual interest, than the propositions that have been laid before the. House of Commons, and I will tell you why; I am the chief proprietor of two 1200 ton ships, if the advantages connected with the putronage of 800 ton ships are done awav, it makes them much more valuable as, to the patronage ; I have a small ship now engaged in the Company's employ, which I am very desirous of disposing of, and I think others carrying the trade on, may give me an opportunity of selling her on more favourable terms. Then, as far as you have a personal interest, it would be to support the resolutions proposed to the House of Commons ? — It would. (Examined by the Committee.) What would you consider to be a fair mercantile profit upon a consignment of goods from this country to India? — From 12 to 15 per cent. : when I speak of profit, I, of course, divest it of all charges. How much has the profit upon consignments to India fallen off since the year 1806? — Since the year 1806, 1 believe, generally speaking,, the consignments from England to the East Indies have not been productive of any profit ; I am decidedly of opinion, taking the average from the year 1806 to the present day, that no house that has made consignments from Great Britain, to any port of the East Indies, has cleared a fair mer- cantile profit. Did you receive the returns for your consignments to India in bills or in goods ? — Generally in bills. Has not the exchange for remittances from India been very unfavourable for some years past ? — It has. Has EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS-. 6« Has there not been a considerable loss on that score sustained by mer- Wm. Davics, chants sending consignments of goods to India ? — I do not consider it a Esq. loss upon the exchange, because I presume that the exchange would ^— — -y ' operate upon the original sale, and therefore 1 should consider the loss, in the first instance, upon the sale of the goods: every man, in disposing of his goods in India, is guided by the exchange back, because, whether the rupee may be 2s. or 2s. 6d. becomes a matter of calculation ; whether the pagoda is Is. 6d. or 9s. 6d. becomes a matter of calculation ; and it is customary for a merchant in India, in disposing of his goods, to see how many pounds sterling so many rupees will produce to him. Is not the Bombay rupee reckoned at 2s. 6d. in the sales of goods by the invoice ? — It is. "What has been the general rate of remittance, at which you have re- ceived your returns from Bombay ? — I think they have varied from 2s. 6d. to 2s. 2d. Reckoning the remittance at 2s. 2d. what loss would arise upon it com- pared with the exchange at 2s. 6d. being the rate at which the goods are estimated in the sales by the invoice ? — That is a mere matter of calcula- tion, a rule of three sum. Have the goodness to state the difference per cent.? — Between 15 and 16 per cent. Do not you consider this a loss sustained, arising from the remittance ?— As I before said, I considered the general loss upon the sale of the goods - r because, in the sale of my goods, it would be mere matter of calculation whether the rupee was at 2s. 3d. or 2s. 6d. ; if at 2s. 3d. I should consider that my goods sold for a certain smaller sum, and if an offer were made to me, I should make a higher demand for my goods originally, in conse- quence of the exchange being so much lower. As a merchant always calculates the sum he is to receive for his goods, would the exchange being favourable or otherwise, at which the remittance is made from India, affect the amount of the profit or loss ultimately ?— As a seller of European goods, I should take into consideration the number of pounds sterling I was to receive for my goods ; my calculation would be in pounds sterling, not rupees, because 1 should look to the return of a certain capital in Britain. Then 646 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wm. Davies, Then you would make up your profit and loss account on your bills be- Esq. ing realized in Britain ?•— Certainly. < ^ ) Would not therefore a difference of exchange of from 12 to 15 per cent, affect that account favourably, or otherwise ?— I have before stated, that in selling an investment in India, I should be guided by the number of pounds sterling that I could obtain in India, that is the certain amount of a bill of exchange ; whether that amount was at 7s. 6d. the pagoda, or 9s. 6rf. would be a mere matter of calculation with me, not of consideration, because if the exchange was low, I should make an higher demand for my article; if the exchange was high, I should make a lower demand : I should be content with a certain profit, and whether that came in the shape of price or of exchange, would be to me a matter of in- difference. Is the Committee to understand that you or any other merchant have it in your power to command what price you please for your goods in India? — Certainly he has not the power of commanding the price there, but he has the power of endeavouring to obtain the best price, and guiding his own actions as to the attainment of that. Supposing he is obliged to sell his goods at a loss of 15 per cent, upon the invoice in India, is not the rate of exchange at which he is enabled to bring back his returns to Great Britain of consequence to him ? — The rate of exchange must always be an object, but it still comes to the s>ame thing ; a man is disposed to sell his investments at a much lower per centage of profit when the exchange is high, than when it is low ; the markets may be such as to force a man to do that which he would do but unwillingly; yet I consider that the matter of exchange is nothing to the seller, for the reasons I have before stated. Is it of no importance whatever to the seller what is the rate of exchange at which he is enabled to bring back the proceeds of his goods to this country ? — If you ask me as a merchant possessed of a lac of pagodas or a lac of rupees, then the exchange is a matter of great consequence ; if I had a thousand pounds worth of goods, that which cost me a thousand pounds sterling money, I should say, if I can get XMSO for these goods, it will be what I consider a fair profit ; then I look to the pounds sterling; it is a mere matter of calculation whether the rupee is Is. 6d. or 2s. 2d., my object is to get the highest price, but whether the gentleman in India with whom 1 deal, calls a certain bit of silver 2s. 3d. or 2s. 6d. regards me only inasmuch as so many go towards the pound sterling, because I have BAST-INDIA COMPANY'S APPArPS. 647 have to return my capital back to Britain, where it is the pound sterling, Wm. Davies, and not the rupee, which is of effect. -k sc l- Does not the number of pounds to be realized in this country 1 depend upon the rate of exchange at which bills are drawn ? — No, I think it depends upon the nominal value which you attach to a rupee. If a man sells his goods in India at a loss of fifteen per cent, upon the invoice, and suffers a further loss of fifteen per cent, by the exchange at which the proceeds are remitted to this country, does not it form a loss of thirty per cent. ?■ — By that question the property of goods is changed ; I should calculate I had lost thirty per cent, upon my investment, I should not take the exchange at all into consideration. In all cases would you not previously inform yourself of the rate of ex- change, and calculate the profit or loss upon the same before you fix the price of your merchandize ? — Certainly; because the profit or loss upon that must depend upon the value o£ the currency of that country ; it is so- connected with profit, you cannot divide them. When you consign goods to India, are they not realized in the first instance in money of that country ft — I presume they are. Do not your agents then purchase bills on England, with the proceeds of those goods,, for a remittance to you ? — Not at all times, my agents have made me a return frequently by their own bills. Do they not then, as your agents,, purchase the bills from themselves on your account ? — If it can be called purchasing, they may do so. Is it not clear then, that your ultimate profit must depend upon the realization in India, and on the rate at which bills are then purchased or obtained for a remittance to you ? — My profit or loss must depend upon< the number of pounds sterling which 1 receive back.. Will not that number of pounds be greater or less,, according to the rate of exchange at which the bills are drawn I — I presume not, because if the exchange is much in favour of England, a less price would be asked for the goods. Would not a bill drawn from India at 2s..6d. the rupee, yield more in pounds 648 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE fVm. Davies, pounds sterling than one drawn at 2s. 2d. ? — Most certainly, on a given Esq number of rupees. Would not that affect your profit and loss account, on making it up here ? • — I am of opinion not, for the reasons 1 before stated. Is the Committee to understand it would be equally the same to you, to get a bill at 2s. 2d. the rupee, as at 2s. 6d. ? — I must beg leave to ask. for what I am to get that bill. For a rupee ? — No ; there would be a difference of four-pence in the exchange. Would not that difference be an addition to your deduction from the profit on the making up your ultimate account of the adventure in this country ? — I think it would not interfere with my profit, owing to the pre- vious tabulations which I should make. What rate of remittance was realized by the specie which you allude to as having been sent by you to Bombay, on account of the ship built by you there ? — I did not send specie, bills had been drawn upon me. At what rate of exchange have those bills been drawn upon you ? — I think about 16 or «£ 17,000 have been drawn at 2s. 2±d. ; I am speaking from memory, and therefore may not be quite accurate ; 6 or 7,000 at 2s. 3d., and some few thousands at 2s. 2d. Do not you consider that a very favourable rate of exchange for you ? —Yes, 1 do. Were not those bills negociated partly, if not principally, through the same hands by whom the bills remitted to you for the sale of your goods were obtained ? — The bills remitted for the sale of my goods were through the house of Messrs. Forbes and Company ; those bills were drawn upon me by a Captain John Money, whom I consider my agent there, and who is to command this ship when built. Is it not within your knowledge, that Captain John Money negociated those drafts almost wholly through the means of Forbes and Company ?— * I have every reason to believe that to be the case. Would it not have made a very considerable addition to the amount in pounds EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 619 pounds sterling paid by 3'ou on account of those bills, had they been drawn Win. Davitt, at the exchange of 2s'. Gd. instead of 2s. 2d., 2s. 2%d., and 2s. 3d., th« Esq. Bombay rupee ? — Certainly. * - Are there no other British manufactures you would be disposed to take to China ? — Excepting glass ware, I do not recollect any thing that I think would be productive of profit. Would not you take woollens to China for sale ? — I believe that wool- lens are not permitted to be sent to China by an individual; that it is a trade reserved by the Company to themselves. Is not the trade to China in woollens considered a losing one, on the part of the Company ? — Ihave heard it so rumoured, but I have had no means of ascertaining the fact. To what extent do you suppose a commander of an Indiaman would take woollens to China, if he were permitted so to do ? — That is so much matter of opinion, that lean scarcely say it would depend upon the man ; some of them are prudent traders, others are more specula- tive. Would not you yourself prefer taking woollens to any other article, particularly camlets ? — Having made one experiment in opposition to the East India Company, I should not feel disposed to try a second. Would not woollens yield a better remittance than any other article ? — - I have not had any means of ascertaining that fact, nor have I given my- self the trouble to inquire into it, knowing no particular good could arise to me in my trade from so doing. What is the fine usually imposed by the Company upon their command- ers or officers who carry camlets and other woollens to China? — I really do not recollect to have heard a captain or an officer speak of any fine having been levied upon him for having so done. Have you never heard of a commander or officer being fined for taking a few camlets to China ? — I recollect having heard that a captain, who is now a director, had been smuggling either camlets or woollens; but whe- ther he was- punished by fine or not, I really do not know.. Have you ever heard of from one to three guineas a piece having been charged upon such camlets ? — V never hav<£cers ot the honourable Company's ships, be considerably incre ised it th< C imoany were to withdraw the restriction upon the ex- portation of them to China r— -Perhaps, from necessity, they may be in- duced so to c"o because, I believe, allot them have not sufficient com- ma ,d ot capital to purchase a Sufficient quantity of specie in this country, to buy their return ca;go. 4 2 Are 652 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE U~?n. Dav/'rs, Are the woollens and tin purchased for ready money generally, or at a Esq. credit ? — The terms upon which the Company buy, I have not taken tin- * ~y — , — ' trouble to make myself acquainted with. In selling goods by the invoice in- India> is it usual to. deduct the dis- count and drawbacks? — I believe not. You have informed the Committee, that a number of vessels of 350 tons, from Great Britain, going to the islands ii> the Indian Archipelago, might it they wished, find any quantity of tea, by means of tne Chinese junks, in those seas; do you know, or are you able from, satisfactory in- formation, to acquaint the Committee, whether there are means for con- troul by manifests, clearances, or other revenue checks amongst those islands, on such illicit trade, if, from disappointment in- their speculatioas, the commanders of those vessels should have recourse- to such practices,? — I know that at present there are not such checks; and to. place checks, around the coast of the islands of Java and Sumatra, would, to say the least of it, be a most expensive experiment, and- in my opinion scarcely practicable; because the Malavs arc eager after gain, and I do firmly believe, from what I have seen of them, that there are some- of their priests that would convert their places of worship into warehouses, if it were possible to gain by so doing. Are you sufficiently acquainted with the, produce of the islands in those; seas, to know whether any quantity of tin might not be procured from Banca, at a considerably lower rate than it could be imported from Great Britain ? — Yes; I believe large quantities of tin: may be obtained at Banca, and carried to China, so as to undersell that sent from Great Britain. Have the goodness to state what you consider to be the intrinsic value, of the Bombay rupee, compared with the money of this country ? — As a. British merchant, I only can consider it as to its relative value to the pound sterling; in my mind and consideration it bears no other value* Do not all coins bear an intrinsic value as well as a relative value, in exchange ? — I must again say, as a merchanr, I have not taken that, or fqund the necessity for taking it, into my, consideration. B,y the most accurate assays that havebeenmade of the Bombay^ rupee, bcfth in this country and in India, its intrinsic value, is ascertained: to be r <)me,thjn;g less tha.n 2$. ; but supposing it tq, be two. shillings, andithat you- EAST-TNDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 653 )"ou had purchased an investment of goods, of the value ofXl,000 in IVm. Dav'tcs y this country, how much would it amount to, at the exchange above E,q. mentioned, in the money of India? — Ten thousand rupees. Supposing this investment to have realized that sum of ten thousand rupees in India, and that this amount were remitted to you at 'Is. 3d. the rupee, how much would this amount to, and realize to you, in pounds sterling in England ? — Xl 5 125. Supposing these ten thousand rupees to be remitted by your agent at Is. 6d- how much would you then realize in England, as the ultimate return of the consignment in question ? — X 1,250. Then would you not have gained a greater profit in the one instance than in the other, in pounds sterling in England, by this higher rare of exchange, if you received ^£'1,250 in one instance, and only £\.,\15 in the other ? — There would be that difference, but I should consider that entirely a bullion transaction. On the goods you exported to India in the Company's ships, what rate of freight did you pay from the year 1793, downwards? — The rates have varied from about jE'7 to X'lO; I have paid ^S, and I have paid -£"10. Has the rare of freight been of late years increased? — For the last three years I have not made any shipment to India as a merchant, there- f le I am not very well informed upon that point ; but I believe that it has not very much varied. Did any increase take place, subsequent to the year 1 800, down to the last period at which you traded ? — I have generally preferred ship- ping my goods on the regular ships, on account of their safety, and the rate of insurance being so much lower ; and I think, the price, generally speaking, has been about ^10 per ton : the Company in their extra ship-, allow freight upon lower terms ; the regular ships are the 800 ton ships, which are manned, armed, and fitted in a superior manner to what the extra ships are ; the difference between the two is, I believe, about j[l per ton the outward freight. What is the difference in the rate of insurance upon a regular and an extra ship ? — The regular ship is insured with grear facility, oiu and home, at 12 percent, i- believe that there are some brokers' in Lloyd's Coffee House, •654 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wm. Davtes, House, who having good business to do, get the extra ships insured at the Esq. same rate : hot in my opinion there is a considerable distinction; their being cnab'h d to do ^o, 1 atmhuteto the eagern^s of speculation ; but as sn u nderwriter myself, ' should consider the risk nearly three or four per cent, more, being, as w.e are, at war wi'h America. Supposing a meicrunt to go to India for the purpose of a return cargo from thence, would he not be satisfied to leceive prime cost on the ex- ports from this country to India, if the returns yielded him an adequate profit upon the whole voyage ?- I presume .hat the original object of the merchant would be to ol ain a fair return of profit ; and whether it was derived from the outward-bound investment or the homeward bound cargo, would be a matter of perfect indiffeience, so that ultimately, on the return of the ship, a fan profit was produced. If a loss were to occur upon the expert cargo, would not that be de- ducted from the home profit, in the usual mode of mercantile specu- lation ? — Yes, certainly; a merchani does not make up an account of an I adventure until he gets possession of his remrns. In the early part of your evidence you stated, that you considered from 12 to 15 per cent, to be a fair mercantile profit upon an adventure ; for how long a peril d of time do you suppose \our capital to be employed in such an adventure, or in the obtaining of that profit ? — Eighteen months 1 should consider the period. You mean then to exclude from your mind the legal rate of interest for money during that period, had your capital been lent on bond or vested in Exchequer bills? — I should. The 12 or 15 per cent, is to be clear of all deductions whatever? — That is my opinion of a fair mercantile profit, which would give from, eight to ten per cent per an^um, upon the capital, exclusive of interest. Ten per cent, more thin you would make by the interest ? — I think that is a fair profit for an Indian capital ; I should m ke a distinction as to the risk of capital : a man uaoingto India is intitled to a better profit than a man who trades nearer home, for he may find, as I have found, considerable difficulty in getting his capital out of the hards of agents with whom he has traded in India. 1 have had a ca, ital exceeding ^40,00^ detained tor sxveial years by an house of agency in India, against my EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 655 my will ; merchants trading with such risks are entitled to an higher Wm Davics, profit than a man trading to Spain, Portugal, or Germany, has a right Es ;. fo expect. "* y » Has the manner in which the Company have supplied tonnage to the manufacturers for exports from this country been such, as, in your judg- ment, to give sufficient encouragement to our manufacturers to export their goods to India ? — I am of opinion that sufficient accommodation' was given to the public under the Act of 1793 ; there may have been some little trouble as to the forms of office, but I know enough of the India House, generally speaking, to say, that the heads of the offices are a set of very respectable men, I think quite equal to any of the public offices of government, and I have never perceived any difficulties wantonly thrown in the way. In the shipping office difficufies may arise with the clerk, shoemakers and cabinet-makers, or men not acquainted with the forms of office, coming in and making a demand at the same time, has occasioned obstructions to a man acquainted with the routine of his busi- ness, and who would not give any trouble if he could get access to the clerk to whom he should go; but, with making fair allowances, I think ample accommodation has been given, and the best proof I can adduce is, that the Act says, the Company shall grant 3000 tons per annum ; now, upon the average of eighteen years, the quantity used by the public amounts precisely to 1,2 11 tons a year. Are you of opinion that a greater average amount of export would have taken place, if greater facilities had been given to the manufacturers ? I- see that in the years 1807, 1808 and 180Q, there was an increased de- mand, but in the years 1810 and 1811, there was a very considerable falling off; now 1 can suppose that to have arisen from men shipping who did not know the real state of the market, and who, about the period of 180Q , and 1810, had discovered tie fallacy of their expectations in making large shipments to India : however, there was in addition to this giant, of which the public did not avail themselves, an allowance granted in the year 1806, and I think that considerable losses have arisen. It is my opinion that the traders possessing capital, knowledge and experience, have withdrawn from it, and that shipments have been made by men who had not capital, some of whom have become bankrupts ; the consequence is, that the loss arising from their speculations has fallen upon the indus- trious manufacturers or tradesmen, a thing which it appears to me ex- tremely desirable to guard against; because if a man without capital says he will oppose me in trade, supposing i possess ten thousand pounds, and each of us has losses to the amount of ten thousand, I and my fa mily are- deprived. §5$ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Wni. DivitS) deprived of those comforts we possessed, but the speculator is precisely ts 4 * where he was, all he has to do is to become a bankrupt, and he starts afresh ; I have been informed and believe, that there are underwriters who attend Lloyd's, that have been twice bankrupt. You are an underwriter yourself ? — I am. In yourjudgment, the difference at which you would underwrite one of the Compauy's regular and one of the Company's extra ships would aniount to between three and four per cent ? — In my judgment there is that difference of risk at this present time. Can you form any judgment of the difference in the rate of insurance, supposing an individual had a right to send his ship out to India from any of the out-ports, his ship being, in the judgment of the individual, properly equipped for India, at what would you underwrite that ship, as compared with one of the Company's extra ships ? — -The extra ships at present are well found, but the distinction between an extra ship fitted for In tia, and a ship which had been in the West India trade is very considerable ; and really, as an under-writer, I would not underwrite them upon any terms ; \ am not a general underwriter, and therefore not competent to answer that question. From your ge leral knowledge of Lloyd's Coffee house, are you of opinion, that if such policies were to be effected upon private ships, they would be effected at a great increase of rate? — With the disposition that 1 perceive in Lloyd's Coffee-house, for what I consider speculative engage- ments, it is di Ficult for me to say (who have not been lately much among them) what they would do. During the period alluded to by you, have there not, to your know- ledge, been very considerable exports of British manufactures in Indian- built shipping? — There have ; the terms of freight have been lower than. the terms on which it could be obtained at the East India House ; and I have shipped myself to a very considerable amount in East India ships ; I have shipped as low as four pounds per ton. Is not the owner of a ship returning to India, obtaining a freight of 4 or X'5 a ton, very well satisfied with it, considering it as so much additional gain, if any gain has been derived from the speculation on the homeward bojnd voyage ? — I presume that the proprietor of an Indian- built ship would be satisfied with 4 or £ 5 per ton, provided he could fill his shjp; but 1 understand that to be a very difficult matter; I' under- stand it to be very difficult at this time to obtain any freight upon any terms. Therefore EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 657 Therefore any thing that a ship returning to India can obtain in the way Wm. Tinvies, of freight is very desirable? — Of course it is a matter of proflf, and no Esq. injury whatever to the ship. ^—— v —> Does not it often happen that ships go to the West Indies in ballast ? — 1 Ho not know that myself; I have possessed a West Indian ship ; she had freight, hut the freight is small ; I know it is considered when a West Indiaman gets a freight but of about a thousand or fifteen hundred pounds, it is a good outward bound voyage. Do not they go often half laden, and some quarter laden, and even sometimes in ballast?' — I believe they do, though I am not acquainted with the fact. D>you think that the quantity of goods shipped on those Indian private ships you have mentioned have increased, upon the whole, the con- sumption of such goods in India, or have only transferred the transport of them from one clas^ of ships to another ; from the Company's ships to ships of individuals ? — I do not think they have been the means of causing a great increase in India, because I am of opinion that that was not prac- ticable ; but I can suppose that it may have been the means of more goods going from this country to India, because many who could obtain tonnage at £i per ton would be ready to make shipments, such as empty bottles for instance, who would not give ten pounds a ton for that. Can you speak generally to the nature of the exports from this country to India, whethei they are, properly speaking, manufactures of Great Britain, or other articles not the produce of this country, such as wine ? — I can read a list of the goods generally sent, and the proportion in which they have been sent for the last e : ghteen years. Taken from what ? - From a paper at the East India House. Do you believe it to be correct ? — I believe it to be quite so. [The account was read as follows.] 4P An. 658 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE An ACCOUNT of TONNAGE, and PRINCIPAL ARTICLES exported by Individuals on Freight, jrom 1793-4 lo 1810-11 inclusive. Tons. Feet. 1793 4. . 919 — 1~94 5. . 40 15 1795 6. . 31 — 1796 7.. 252 — 1797-8 . . — — 1798 9. . 374 6 1799-800 195 28 1800 1. . 129 35 1801-2. . 31 32 1802-3.. 1,310 22 I 1803-4.. 850 33 1804-5 . . 1,431 11 1805-6.. 3,981 19 1806 7. . 1,949 27 1807 8. . 2,509 25 1808-9. . 2,487 8 1809-10 3,511 32 1810-11 1,800 15 21/806 28 — be c "S d \~5 J br a o Wine Beer Iron Pig, Sheet, Red and 1 White Lead J Copper Carriages Oilman's Stores Spirits Confectionary SiCordials Quicksilver Steel Iron Guns Pitch and Tar Ironmongery and Nails Cutlery and Hardware Cottons and Linens . . Tinware and Braziery. . Turnery Plated Ware Fowling PiecesSiPistols Swords Glass and Earthenware Sundries Tons. Feet. Tons. Feet. 5,51 1 — 3,244 24 2, 1 47 — 1,078 20 805 33 685 — 523 38 207 10 174 10 155 15 62 25 34 20 19 26 14,649 21 599 7 176 12 102 27 47 31 35 10 33 35 5 36 5 21 1,006 19 2,704 29 *3,445 39 21,806 28 * Consisting of Boots and Shoes, Braziery, Cabinet ware, Canteens, Caipeting, Chemical apparatus, Clocks, Cochineal and Saffron, Cordage, Corks, Cotton Presses, Drugs and Me- dicines, Fishing tackle. Flannel, Floor-cloths, Garden seeds, Glass beads, Glass bottles, Gold and silver thread, Grocery, Hals and haberdashery. Hosiery, gloves and silks, Helmets, Jew- ellery, Leadimiges, Leather pantaloons and gloves, Lines and twine, Looking glasses, Ma- hogany, Marble, Mathematical instruments, Millinery, Mineral water, Morocco leather, Musical instruments, Plate, Painters colours and oil, Perfumery, Pipes, Prints and pictures, Saddlery, whips and harness, Soap, Scales and weights, Snuff and tobacco, Soda water, Sta- tionary, cards, maps and books, Steam engines, Stills, Tin plates, Tin ware, Toys, turnery and blacking, Upholstery, Woollens. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 639 Mr. Davies.'] This paper goes to shew, that the exports have been Win. Davits, chiefly in wine and beer, and not so much in the manufactures of this Esq. country. V Is it within your knowledge, that the manufactures of British articles have themselves been the shippers, or have desired to be the shippers, or whether the articles which have gone, have generally gone from merchants and other adventurers to India ? — It was the object with those who did ship such goods to conceal the matter of fact from the merchants, because it would interfere with the sale of the merchants' consignment, which they had purchased from them ; but I have been informed, that some of the manufacturers have exported on their own account; I have heard that Sir Robert Peel did to a large extent: I believe that some of the minor manufacturers in London have exported goods on their own account, but as it was an object to them to conceal that from me and other merchants who had given them orders, I have not known it from them. Do you conceive this to be an experiment made once or twice, or that they continued in this practice from year to year ? — Or late I understand they have desisted ; that they have discovered it an unprofitable attempt and have desisted. You now speak of the manufacturers themselves ? — I rather speak of the traders than the manufacturers ; I am not so well informed as to what the manufacturers did, except in the instance of Sir Robert Peel, as I am of the traders who call themselves manufacturers in London, manufacturers of hats and manufacturers of shoes, for instance. You speak of tradesmen in London ? — Yes, manufacturing their own articles. I speak of the hatters and glass makers, for instance, who ma- nufacture their own articles. Do you know that Sir Robert Peel and Co. have desisted from sending goods to India on their own account? — I do not from my own knowledge know the fact of their having sent any, but 1 have heard it so rumoured ; and that rumour I have given credit to. Are you an underwriter in the East India trade at all ? — I am, on a confined scale. You have before said, you would not insure private ships at any rate ? — 1 would not. 4? 2 Do 660 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE fftn Djvie*, Do you mean to say by that, you should not consider private ships In- E;q. surable by a private underwriter, or that they would not be within the scope you have prescribed to yourself as an underwriter ? — I consider that all ships at certain premiums are insurable by respectable underwriters ; but they are a class of ships that would not come within my scope of un- derwriting. You speak of the ships you suppose may be sent out hereafte'- ? — I am speaking of the ships that I presume may hereafter be fitted out from the different out-ports. If those ships fitted out from the out-ports were equally good with the Indian built ships, would you decline insuring them ; would you insure the one and not the other ? — I should not make that distinction ; if I insured the one, the probability is I should insure the other, making a proportion- able difference for the goodness of the ship. Would you expect, supposing you were inclined to embark in such un- derwriting, a considerable advance of premium ? — I really should. Taking into consideration freight and insurance, at what difference per cent, do you apprehend that, by the ships proposed to be admitted into the trade to India, goods could be exported, compared with the rate per cent, at which they are now exported on the extra ships ot the Company? — It is really my opinion, that it would be impossible for any individual to export on lower terms than the freights that the Company now obtain ships at ; I have, as I stated before, a ship of my own that was in the West India service ; I bought her for ready money upon low terms, I fitted her out as cheaply as I believe any ether merchant in London could have fitted her out, arid at an advanced rate of f.eight to that which I now obtain from the East India Company; she was unproductive of profit; I am not only tire carrier of those goods for the Company, but I am the protector of those goods from injury, which frequently makes considerable difference in the freight. Is the Committee to understand, that the rate per cent, at which goods could be exported in the private ships proposed to be admitted to the India trade, would not be less than the rate at which they may now be exported, taking freight and insurance together, in the Company's ships ? — I must beg leave to answer that question, by first stating, that though the ship owner may be a loser upon the freight at which he may let his ship to the East India Companv, the East India Company may, for what I know to EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 661 to the contrary, charge such a freight to the public, that the East India WJm. L' Company could not be losers ; but I am of opinion, that the East India pwf. Company have this last year obtained ships at such a rate of freight, that it *--— — , ' is not desirable eiiher for them or the public that they should get tlienri lower, or so low. Practically, in point of fact, if a man had to choose at this morrienfj whether he would send out his goods in one of the Liverpool or Bri tol .ships, or in one of the Company's extra ships, would the rate of i and insurance to which he would be subject, in the first place* in thfc pri- vate ship, and in the second, ori the Company's ship, vary, and to what degree ? — That is a matter of calculation ; I believe the Company charge to the public ,£8 per ton ; I believe they are not gainers by the freight that they let to the public ; I have been informed, and I believe accural h informed, that their loss upon ships that they have freighted from indivi- duals, and relet to the public, between the year 1795 and the year 1810, has amounted to .£'444, 293 ; I think no Liverpool, Hull or Bristol mer- chant, could export goods to India cheaper, taking insurance and every thing into consideration, than he may at this time through the Company. In what way do you suppose the shipowners to be ultimately indemni- fied for these tenders, at rates apparently losing r -They are not indemni- fied ; they are losers. How come those tenders to go on ? — Because the ship owner having got his ship into that line of service, has of late found a difficulty in getting any other employ for it; and there may be other inducements of a nobler nature, such as serving young men who have been patronized by the ship's husband ; the captain of my ship happens to be a Welchman, and on that account, as a countryman of mine, I have made up my mind to make a considerable sacrifice for his benefit. Then this is in the nature of a bonus bestowed for acquiring the com- mand of those ships ? — It is a bonus bestowed. You understand it to be worth while for an owner who wishes to serve a captain, to lose a certain sum of money to place that captain in the command of a Company's ship ? — No ; I do net understand it to be worth while to do so ; but an owner having placed a young man once in the command of a ship, he, in consequence of attaining thatsituation, having married an amiable woman, and got a family, the owner afterwards may feel disposed to sacrifice a sum of money for the benefit of that family. a:d 652 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE GN THE Jf'xi. Davies, and keeping the young man in a situation that he has filled with credit to I£ S q # himself and service to his country; such were my feelings when I made » y_ / an offer of this ship on a second voyage to the East India Company ; myself and partner are pioprietors of twelve sixteenths of that ship, as we are of what other ships we have, except one, and in that we have eleven. I have a great respect for some of the captains that have served us, and I should be extremely sorry to see a man lowered from the situation that I had been the means of placing him in, and leading his family to expect he for years would continue in. When I first bought this ship it was in the hope of gain ; the freights were better then, and I did hope they would increase, instead of which they have faJfen off. Do you think it possible, as a merchant, this system can go on long? — I am of opinion that the system of the East India Company obtaining freights on the very low terms they do at present, cannot last long, be- cause, I presume, no man would keep his ship in that employ longer than until he could find a more profitable one for her. Do not the Company take up their ships by public contract at the lowest bidding ?— The executive body of the Company act in the most correct and honourable way ; the fault is not with them ; it is the competition, it is the want of employment in other services; a merchant says, it is better that I should gain jC'20,000 by my ship, though that will not remunerate me, than that I should not gain any thing for twelve months, or that I should embark her in a service where I shall only gain ^lSjCOO. In general when a ship is engaged to the Company, is she not engaged for six voyages, extending probably fifteen years, so that having once made an engagement they cannot alter it ? — I have built two ships for the Com- pany ; my contract, prior to the keel of those two ships being laid, was tor an engagement of six voyages, but the ship I have been last speaking of was engaged for one voyage only ; but in general the contract is for six voyages, and the only terms on which I could be tempted to come into any engagement with the East India Company again as a ship owner. i Having stated that the India-Company have lost above ,£400,000 by freight, do not you think that fact might be consistent with their having charged a higher rate of freight than a private ship owner would charge, in case of a free trade? — I presume that a private ship owner would not embark his ship but at least with a prospect of obtaining a profit ; now the Company have certainly re-let those ships so as to be losers by them, their motives for so doing I shall not presume to surmise. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 663 Do you know what is the rate of freight outward and homeward Win. Dabiei charged by the Company upon those ships from which you suppose a loss E;q. is sustained ? — Of late years not having been engaged as an EastTndia merchant, I have not made those minute inquiries which would allow me to state it as matter of fact, but as matter of belief, the freight out has been <£8 per ton, and homeward about j£l6 per ton. Considering the great loss the Company has sustained by supplying the tonnage of the extra ships to the merchants, and also the great loss that the owners of those extra ships sustain by letting them to the honourable Company, do not you conceive that it would be more for the interest of both parties to allow the private merchants to supply themselves with tonnage ? — As a matter of mere profit and loss, I presume that the Com- pany would not lose by being deprived of their export trade; but when I think on that subject, there are questions of great magnitude involved ; but merely as a matter of profit and loss, I think they would be gainers by having the export trade taken from them. Would it not be also advantageous to the owners of the extra ships, considering it as a question of profit and loss ? — The owners of the extra ships are at present, I think, losers by their contracts with the East-India Company ; but that, like every other part of trade, has its rise and fall, and must in time come back to its fair level. The Committee are to understand, that one great inducement to the owners of extra ships to let them to the Company at a low rate is, the connection they may have with the person who is to be appointed to the command of those ships; does not a great part of the advantage, which such commander derives, arise from passage-money ? — I would wish to explain the connection between the owner and the captain ; I must speak from that which I know: as the principal owner of three ships, I was originally induced by the merit, and the merit only, of the men, to select them for my captains; I never received a shilling by the way of bonus ; that, I believe, is not universally the case in the service. A part of their profit, and, I believe, at present, the greater part of the profit that does arise from the voyage to the captain, is from the passengers, and from obtaining his tonnage freight free. Do you not conceive that a ship owner, in contracting with the Com- pany for his ship, the contract being for six voyages, has not in his con- templation the contingency of peace, by which he may expect to be indemnified for the sacrifices that a time of war requires ? — When I first offered my ship to the Company, it was with the hope of gain. I had formed 664- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Win. Davics, formed erroneous opinions as to the manner and rate at which a ship Esq. for su< h a vovage could be fitted out; but experience has convinced me, v v 1 that upon the small ships, at the present rate of freights, no gain should be expected by the ship owner ; but I had not in contemplation any par- ticular advantage that would arise to me in the event of a peace ; I believe war quite as good for me, upon my twelve hundred ton ships, as peace: those, I trust, will produce to me a fair mercantile profit, upon a very large capital. In the account of the Company's loss by those extra ships, are you not aware that one part of the ioss is made up of demurrage ? — I understand it to be so. And that that loss by demurrage arises from detentions, and from cir- cuitous voyages, occasioned by a state of war ? — Certainly. Which therefore are not to be looked for in a time of peace ? — Certainly), that loss falisupon the Company, and not upon the ship owner. Have the goodness to state the peace freight, at which he has let his ships to the honourable Company? — The one at j£l9 15s. per ton, for twelve hundred tons, and the half of that sum on all exceedings of the twelve hundred tons; the other at j£l7 17s. per ton, on the twelve hun- dred tons, and half that sum on all she can bring home more than the twelve hundred tons. What are the war allowances made by the Company to you per ton ? — The war allowances that I have received on a ship of twelve hundred tons, called the Cabalva, have been about £\.6 per ton ; the other ship, being now on her passage from Bombay to China, will not, this voyage, be entitled to any war contingencies. Is the Committee to understand you to say that you make, or are likely t > make, a fair mercantile profit upon letting those ships to the honourable Company upon those terms ? — The p;ace freight that I now obtain upon a ship, which I have lately built at Bombay, is ,£17 17s. per ton, as I before stated, for the twelve hundred tons, and the half of that sum for all surplus; that is my present peace freight; but it a peace were to take place, I should obtain further allowances from the Company, which at present are not, nor can well be accurately ascertained, as it would depend upon the price of cordage, canvas, iron, and the various articles requisite tor the fitting (.ut ot a ship, when peace may take place. Is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 6d5 Is there any stipulation made in the tender, by an owner of a ship, to Win. Davies, the honourable Company for such increased allowances upon the return of E;q. peace, and when the allowances for war contingencies would, as a matter < v ' of course, be struck off? — When the executive bo' : v advertise tor tenders, they leave with their clerk to the committee of shipping, the terms on which those tenders are to be made, which always are very distinct and specific. Do those terms contain any such stipulation as that alluded to ? — Yes, they do. Be so good as to state the nature of them ? — I have before stated, that they in some degree depend upon the price ot the various articles requisite for the outfit of such a ship ; and without the public obtaining such terms from the Company, I am of opinion, that no merchant would embark a capital of from eighty to ninety thousand pounds, which it now requires, to build a ship of twelve hundred tons, and fit her out well including insurance. Is the amount of those allowances so to be made by the Company, as stated by you, obligatory upon the Company, or otherwise? — Certainly binding upon the Company. The amount of them ? — Yes; that is specified. Would the amount of those allowances, in your opinion, be equal to the expenses ? — I am of opinion that they would be equal to the expense ; that is, that the total amount would be equal. Is the Committee to understand from you, that it would be equally ad- vantageous to you, to sail your ships in the service of the honourable Com- pany during peace as it now is during war, according to your agreement with the Company to which you have referred ? — One ship I expect will be more productive to me during war; the other, I think, may at least be equally productive in peace as war. "What is the usual peace freight for the extra ships ? — It varies from about £ 1 6 to £,20 per ton. "What is the whole freight upon the extra ships in time of war, taking the peace 'reight and the war allowances together ? — The tender is made at a specific mm per ton, and that has varied from .£40 per ton down to 4Q £26 G6Q MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Ulu. Dwies, j£$6 per ton, within a very few years ; there are no war allowances upon Esq. those extra ships, in addition to tnat specific sum at which the tender is "•— v ' made. You mean for single voyages, I presume ? — For single voyages, cer- tainly. In this instance I speak of ships That are engaged by the Hast-in a Company for the performance of one voyage only ; they have ano.her cl kss of extra ships, which they have engaged tor a certain number of voyages, ♦ giving them a certain pea - e freight, and allowing them certain war conn i- gencies, after the manner in which they allow to their eight hundrei and twelve hundred ton ships, which, by way of distinction, are called regular ships. Have you any idea of the rate per ton at which a Liverpool merchant could afford to send anyone of his ships j voyage f o India and b cfc again ? — I think hat would much depend upon the outfit of the ship and fli^ ship he-self ; but I am quite of opinion, that a ship which would go from Liverpool to the West Indies, and bring a good and sufficient cargo from thence, could not convey indigo, silks and s.iltpetre, with advantage to the ship owner, on the terms at which the East India Company now engage that class of shipping, because the ship owner would be liable to all the damage sustained ; and although a small leak would in no degree be detri- mental to a West indiaman, ir may create a very considerable loss to a ship that has an East India cargo en board. Are you aware that the extra ships are paid an extra allowance for such political services as they may perform in India ? — Yes ; I am aware they are so paid. Are vou aware that that allowance is included in the amount charged as freight of extra ships on the Honourable Company's book;, and upon w hich you state them to have lost so large a sum ? — I am not sufficiently well in- formed to answer that question with satisfaction to myself. Is it usual for the commanders and officers of the Company's ships, on going to India, to empioy European agents or narive agents ? — i believe the captains and pursers generally employ European agents, but thar the officers who have small investments, get their business done by black men. Have you ever heard a single instance in which a commander of an East Indiaman, going to Bombay, has employed an European house of agency in EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. G67 in the sale of his investment-, or in tie purcha c e of his returns ?— I have Wm. Davies, understood that there was a certain aid ooiaintd from the houses of agency, Esq. by the captains in the management of their Concerns ; h avthey remunf- ' v ' rate hose agents for the services that they rendered them, or the full ex- tent to wh'ch those services were rendered, I cannot speak accurately, never having been at Bombay ; my an-wer was as to India in general. Would it be profitable to the owners of ships, if, immediately after de- livering their cargoes they were re loaded and dispatched without remain- ing some months unemployed ? — It is quite obvious, that the having a ship unemployed fox any period of time, is to a certain degree detrimental ; but how far it may be p'u ent to send ships at certain periods, is a; matter for consideration : For instance, I expect a ship from China in the course of this month ; as a ship owner, I have no wish that ship should sail again for Bombay and China earlier than the 1st of next January, though she would lie unemployed in the docks for a few months. Suppose she was immediately to be dispatched to Bengal or Bombay ? — I am of opinion, that at present, the executive body of the Company have well arranged the general dispatch of their ships ; because, I am of opinion that they should sail between the 1st of January and the 1st of July, which I understand they now are desirous themselves of having taken place. Supposing a ship to sail the latter end of August, when do you think she would reach bengal ? — 't would be a dificult passage that she would have to make up the Bay of Bengal ; and much depends upon the skill of the captain and officers in navigating her aLng the coast. Do you think she would get to Bengal in time to be dispatched again during the fair season, if activity was used there? — I have gone from Madras to Bengal, against the monsoons, in less time than three weeks, I theref re presume she might get to Bengal in time to be dispatched in due season. Would a ship at that season of the year go to Madns. or would she go to the eastern side of the Bay of Bengal ? — I presume she would keep on the eastern side, but I have heard of favourable passages having been made by keeping within reach of the sea and land breezes on the western side of the Bay. Would such a ship not be subject to fall within the monsoon on the 4 Q 2 coast 668 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE //'///. Davies, coast of Coromandel ? — I presume that she would keepsuch an offing as to E '.]. keep herself clear of the so rf that runs so high upon that coast during the « v * monsoons; and doing that, I think she might make a short passage, by keeping the coast of Coromandel well on board. Do you know the rate at which India built ships have brought home cargoes from Bengal ? — I am not well informed. Have the goodness to explain the ground upon which the ship of twelve hundred tons, belonging to you, now on her way home from Bombay, is not allowed any thing on the score of war contingencies? — My original contract with the East-India Company, was, that I should build a ship at Bombay, a^d bring her to England on my own account, and that after her arrival in England, she should perform six voyages to and from India for the East-India Company. Not deeming it prudent to import into this country fourteen or fifteen hundred tons of such goods as I could purchase at Bombay, I made an offer to the East India Company, to bring them a cargo of teas home from China upon low terms, conditionally, that I were permitted to have the advantage of freighting that ship on my own account from Bombay to China. What Is the freight you received from China to England on the teas ? — Sixteen guineas per ton upon all she can bring home, the Company en- gaging on their part to pay certain expenses at Canton, which will amount, I presume, to fourteen or fifteen hundred pounds. [The Witness was directed to withdraw.] [The Committee adjourned till to-morrow morning, at eleven o'clock.] EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 069 Veneris, 7° cfie May, 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. WILLIAM STANLEY CLARKE, Esq. was called in, and examined W. S. Clarke, as follow* : Est]. Mr. Impey^ ARE you in the sea service, or have you been in the sea service of the East India Company ? — I have beui in the sea service of the East India Company more than twenty-five years, Have you been commander of a regular ship of the East India Compa- ny's service ? I have ; six voyages, during about filteen years. In consequence of having been so long in the East India Company's service, are you acquainted with the Indian trade ? — Generally so, of that part of it which commanders and officers of our ships are accustomed to participate in. You have regularly made use of your privilege as an officer in carrying out investments to India? — Invariably. What has been the assortment of goods of which those investments have consisted ? — A general assortment, consisting of staples, and in short, of every description of merchandize suited to the Indian markets. Principally English produce and manufacture ? — Yes, principally so. What British produce and manufacture are suited to the Indian market ? — The staple articles are iron,' lead, and copper ; the miscellaneous, wine, beer, hams, cheese, &c. and in short, a great variety of articles suited to European consumption. What articles of British manufacture ? — Almost every kind of British manufacture ; such as sadlery, glass ware, and also furniture, in a small degree Any 670 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE W. S. Clarke, Any woollens ? — Woollens are prohibited to the commanders and offi- Esq. cers of the Company's ships. ' v ' Do you think any private trader can carry out British produce and ma- nufactures to India with the same advantage as the superior officers in the East India Company's service r — I conceive, certainly not. State the advantages those officers have over anv other private traders? — They are granted .1 certain privilege by the regulations of the East India Company, by virtue ol which, they carry out their investments free ot all freight. They can also injure at a very low rate, can they not ? — -They insure at the same rare that the Company's ships are generally insured; cenainly I believe at a lower rate than ships or a smaller description, and of less torce would be subject to. Can ycu state to the Committee, whether the investments carried out from this country by the East India Company's officers, have of late been profitable to them, or otherwise ? — i he profitab.e result of the invest- ments carried out from this countrv, is very dependent upon tie state of the markets, and the markets of late years have generally been so ful y stocked, as I believe to yield a very moderate advantage. I have in my possession a letter from a caotain of one of '.he shins mat wenr out in the last season to Madras, in which he describes his great apprehensions of suffering a very serious loss from his outwaid investment, in consequence ot the great glut in the market of all European articles. • So that not only in your time the markets were overstocked, but you ha\e reason to believe that they are now ? — [ do not mean to say that the markets were always overstocked in my time, but i think generally, .hey ha^ e been so much so as to yield but a small return under the description of piorit. Your three last voyages were to Bombay, were they not ?— They were to Bombay, and ultimately to China. Did you carry out any specie to Bombay in this last voyage ? — On my » two for tier voyages I carried out specie to a considerable amount. Which of those voyages ? — The two former of those three voyages, from an EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 671 an apprehension, that with too large an adventure in merchandize, I It S. Clarke, should not be successful. Esq. During the time you were employed in the Indian service, did you ob- serve that any new articles of B. itish manufacture, or produce, found a market in India, or were demoded there ? — i really am unable to name any new article : I certainly myself tried an experiment in carrying out some Manchester gooas to the amount of about «=£ 1,000 on two ot my voyages, and it assisted the disposal of the rest of my investment, bv mak- ing the assortment more general, but I believe merely to that limited ex- tent thai I could have hoped tor a market, ana that chiefly lor the con- sumption of Europeans. In your opinion, if a free trade were opened between this country and India', would there be any increased demand, either among the natives of India, or among Europeans, for British commodities ? — I apprehend noc among the natives. Do you apprehend there would among the Europeans ? — I think that would much depend upon the possibiy increased number of European re- sidents, and the consequent increased number of consumers. You of course understand the loading of a ship for a homeward voyage ; must there not be an assarted cargo of light goods, and what is called dead weight or ballast goods ? — Undoubtedly. Are you acquainted with the ballast goods from India, what they are ? — I believe they are saltpetre, sugar, and such other articles of dead weight. Rice r — Rice is included certainly. Do you recollect any other article ? — I cannot say that any other occurs to me. Saltpetre is confined to the Company's ships, is it not ? — It is. Then if private ships were to load from India f or this country, they must take as ballast either rice or sugar? — -I apprehend that would be the case. Must not rice in general be extremely unprofitable to them, except on occasions of great scarcity here :— -I conceive it a veiy precarious article. Do 672 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE W. S. Clarke, Do you not think, for the most part, their ballast would he sugar? — Esq That must in some degree depend upon the judgment of the parties. "V" Saltpetre not being permitted to them, and lice in general being a very precarious article, do not you think that the judgment of the parties would generally lead them lo take sugar as ballast ? — 1 should suppose it would. Are you acquainted with the capability of Bengal for the production of sugar ; do not you think it might be produced in Bengal to any amo nt ? — It is nineteen years since I was in Bengal, but I certainly have a general understanding that it might be so produced, as the question infers. From your experience, do you think that the capital that is now cm- ployed by the Company, and by private merchants in the Indian ^rade, is fully adequate to embrace it according to the present demands? — Accord- ing to the present demands, I should bay certainly. Are you well acquainted with the islands in the Indian Archipelago ? — I have been through several of what are called the Eastern Straits, and I have also visited the island of Amboyna, and Ballytown, in the Straits of Alias ; the native name is Loboagee. Do you apply the term the Eastern Islands, to the whole of the Archi- pelago, or only part of it r — I believe the Straits of Macassar are con- sidered by navigators the western limits of the Eastern Archipelago. State to the Committee, whether the inhabitants of those islands are of a mild or of a ferocious disposition generally ? — The natives of the islands of Celebes and Borneo are said to be terocious ; I speak not from personal knowledge of them ; those with whom I had intercourse in the Straits of Alias were a courteous and civd people, but still when there a single ship, we used great caution in our intercourse with them, to guard against any disposition to treachery. Has it not been found by experience, that they generally have a dispo- sition to treachery ? — I believe generally where they have any interest to become so, or their resentment is excited. Are they not what may be considered a barbarous, rather than a civi- lized people ? — I certainly so consider them. The climate of those islands is extremely hot ? — Yes, it is. What EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR9. (37$ What is the clothing of the natives ? — Of the simplest description pos- W\ S. Clarke, sible ; they wear a garment round their middle, and a turban or light cap Esq. upon their heads, which I believe form the principal, if not entire, part u — — - v ■ ' of their clothing. Are those of cotton ? — Yes, of cotton cloths of their own manufacture. State to the Committee, what articles of European produce or manu- facture, in your opinion, can be disposed of amongst them ? — I am really unaware of any articles of European manufacture, unless it were a supply of ammunition and fire-arms, which are a prohibited article ; when I was in the Straits of Alias, for poultry, and such minor description of provi- sions, we found they would accept in exchange to a certain extent of knives, and such articles of coarse cutlery ; for bullocks and provisions of a more expensive kind, we paid in dollars; commercial dealings wc had none. In your opinion, is there any the least chance of disposing of woollen goods of this country to any amount, among those islands ? — I think not. Do you think the ports of those islands have been already fully explored, in a commercial point of view ? — I apprehend the country traders have been most active and enterprising in endeavouring to explore them in every possible way, with a view to any advantage they might have derived from them. Supposing a private trader of this country were to send out a ship of 400 tons to those islands loaded with British produce, how long do you think it would take such a trader to dispose of his cargo ? — In my opinion, he would not be able to dispose of it at all ; and it would be highly essential that his ship should be extremely well armed, as are the country ships which go on that description of voyage. Are not the Eastern Islands governed by petty Rajahs, who are extreme- ly jealous of, and hostile to each other ? —I have understood so. So jealous, that the trading with one of them would be likely to excite the hostility of others ? — I think it would be likely to become an object of contention between them. Do you then think that the Eastern Islands could be to any British mer- 4 R chant 074 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE IV. S. Clarice, chant an object of fair trade, with a view to commercial profit, upon any Esq. rational principle ? — With a view to. the sale of British produce, I should l - v j say, certainly not. Supposing a British merchant to send his ships to those seas, do you think he could get teas in those seas, supposing the China trade still to be confined to the East India Company, and supposing an illicit commerce to be a part of his object ? — There would be certainly no difficulty in ob- taining teas, if it became an object to obtain thern among those islands. Is not the high duty on tea, and the high price in consequence, the strongest possible inducement to smuggling in that article ? — No doubt it must operateas a great temptation. State to the Committee, how in your opinion a trader, having such illicit objects in view, would obtain teas in the Eastern Elands ? — I apprehend, if such was their object, they might obtain them with greater f icility trom Manilla, or some of the ports towards the Straits of Malacca, or even in Java. Taking Manilla first, through what vessel* do you imagine they would obtain such illicit cargoes of tea, at Manilla: — They might do so, by means of the Cninese Junks, or probably by the aid of Portuguese or Spanish bhips from Macao. How do you imagine they would obtain such cargoes of tea either at Java or towards the Straits of Malacca ? — There is a constant intercourse between China, Cochin China and Java, as well as the Eastern Elands, by means of the Chinese junks; and country ships returning trom China, pass through the Straus of Malacca, and could certainly land any quantity of teas at the intermediate ports. Are there not Chinese colonies upon the Northern coast of Java, with which, by means of their junks, the Chinese have constant communi- cation ? — I understand there are. Would there be any difficulty in obtaining tea to any amount that is like I v to be required, either from the Hong merchants, or what are called the outside men, in China ? — I believe tea might be obtained ifl any quantity. Do you know the fact, that the East India Company have the choice of the EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. t>75 the best teas ? — I have understood them to have the selection of all the IV. S Clarke, teas that come to Canton. Esq. Supposing an illicit commerce in tea to be carried on to any amount, is it your opinion, that the teas so introduced into ihis country would be of' a very inferior quality ? — I should think they would be very inferior to the Company's teas; much might depend, however, upon the judgment and capability of selection, of the parties who purchased them. Do you know any thing of the island of Banca and its produce ? — The produce of Banca is principally tin. Do you know whether the inland of Banca produces tin in any considera- ble quantities? — I understand it to do so. Have you the means of information whether that tin is easily obtained from the mines in the island of Banca ? — I apprehend it to be so, but I never visited Banca myself. Have you heard whether that tin is smelted easily or with difficulty ? — I have heard easily ; but I speak from general information. Have you heard that the Chinese have in a very great degree been sup- plied with tin through the Dutch, from the island of Banca ? — Yes, in former times. Do you know whether the Eastern Islands produce iron ? — I am told they do, some of them. Do you know whether the iron instruments and arms used by the na- tives of those islands, are manufactured by themselves from their own iron ? — I believe chiefly by themselves ; I have also understood that they formerly obtained an occasional supply from the Dutch, of ornamented fire-arms ; indeed I saw some of that description in the Straits of Alias, when 1 was there. State what return cargo a merchant trading to the Eastern Island's could fin 1 there for Europe ? — I am not aware of any thing ; unless a quantity of mother of pearl shells, a small supply of tortoise shell, and perhaps somespicery; on the islands called the Fejee Islands, there has been found a small quantity of srndal wood, which the American traders have brought to China of late years, but very inierior in quality to what is sent from India. 4R2 If 6/6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE W. S. Clarice, If you, as a Company's officer, had £\ 0,000 engaged in the privilege Esq. trade, what should you consider you gained over a private trader in con- v ; sequence of the advantages you enjoyed as a Company's officer ? — I should suppose from twelve to fifteen per cent, but it is a matter of opinion. How does that advantage arise ? — By exoneration from the charge of freight, by a reduced premium of insurance, and saving on the commission for agency in India. Can you give an opinion what proportion the British manufactures ex- ported by the Company's officers, bear to the whole of their investments taken out ? — Perhaps a fifth part, speaking of manufacturers only ; but this of course varies. Are ycu acquainted with the state of manufactured articles now made at the Presidencies by native labourers, under the instruction of British artificers, which manufactured articles were formerly imported from Great Britain ? — I know it to be a fact, that there are at this time, manufactured at the presidencies, a great variety of articles of leather, such as boots, shoes, &c. ; they also manufacture carriages extremely well, furniture and cabinet wares. Any articles in the metals, gold, silver, brass, iron and steel ? — Yes, all the articles enumerated in this question generally, and very well finished. Can you give any opinion what proportion those articles now made there and consumed by the British settlers, bear to those now imported from Great Britain ? — I cannot say. Has the exportation of these articles from Great Britain decreased ? — I have understood it to have done so of late years. Are you of opinion that as improvements increase in the manufacture of those articles, the importation of those articles from Great Britain may be materially affected ?■ — 1 think so, certainly. Supposing the present duty of q6 per cent, upon tea to be reduced to one half of that amount, do you think there would remain sufficient temptation to smuggle tea, if the Archipelago were opened to numerous vessels of 350 tons from Great Britain ? — The inducement would cer- tainly be lessened, in proportion to the quantum of duty that was taken off;. EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 077 off; but I conceive, still a sufficient temptation would exist, provided W.S. Clarke the parties disposed to enter upon the speculation, saiv it safe to do so. E S q. Can you give any probable opinion what amount of duty remaining ' ° upon tea might still continue a sufficient temptation ? —That is a question I find great difficulty in answering ; I consider it to require so much se- rious consideration, that I would not wish to hazard an opinion in a sum- mary way. Is the Committee to understand it to be your opinion, that a quantity of tea suffi ient for the supply c-f Great Britain, might be found in the Eastern Islands, in the event of our being excluded from China? — I think not. In the event of a free trade in tea, are you of opinion that the price of tea would be considerably reduced in this country ? — It probably would in the first instance materially, but I should apprehend the contrary might eventually ensue, from the great advance of price in China. Upon what grounds do you consider that a great advance of price would take place in China ? — From the competition that would arise between the Company and private traders, were they admitted there. Must not the price in China depend upon the extent of purchase ? — I do not think it altogether dependent thereon. If the quantity purchased in China were not more considerable in the event of a free trade than it is at present, upon what grounds do you imagine that any permanent advance in the price of tea could take place in China? — From the advantage which the Chinese would embrace of having a variety of competitors in their market, instead of its being con- fined tot he East India Company. Then you do not imagine, that in the event of a free trade, any consider- able additional quantity of tea would be imported into this country from India and China ? — I by no means meant to state that opinion ; and if so the price might be affected, but beyond all doubt so would be the quality of the tea. Is the Committee to understand, that you do conceive that a consider- able addition would probably take place in the importation into this country ?■- I should suppose that would much depend upon the demand that adventurers in such trade should find for the article, their spirit of enterprize, 678 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE IF. S. Clarke, enterprize, and the consequent advantage they might look to from im- Esq. por;ing it. Did the consequence which you state you apprehend as likely to result from a competition, arising from the free introduction of Briiish merchants, take place at the time the Americans were in the habit of resorting to China for the purpose of the purchase of tea? — There was certainly a competition to a limited extent; the quantity of tea taken from China by the Americans, bore a small proportion to that purchased by the East India Company, who had the selection of all the choice teas, as I under stand, previous to the Americans effecting their purchases. Do the captains and officers in the service of the East India Company, pay to the Company any per centage upon being allowed to import tea from China ? — They pay a duty of 7 per cent, ior a small proportion of their privilege, 17 per cent, on a second proportion ; these under ihe head of indulgence, and on all the excess above that, under the head of ex- ceedings, 3/ per cent. State the proportion, generally, of the captain's investment from Chins, paying each duty ? —In a commander's privilege, 688lbs. weight pays 7 per cent. 8,6-lbdbs. pays 17 percent, the remainder, if filled up with teas, pays 37 percent.; a commander is allowed 38 tons from China. What other articles besides tea, are they allowed to import from China ? —Nankeens and drugs ; and they also frequently have permission to put in, as ballast, a quantity of mother-o'-pearl shells, over and above their limited privilege, freight free. Have the goodness to state to the Committee what proportion the tea beafrs to those other articles in the excess above the indulgence, and which pays 37 per cent. ? — With the exception of a small quantity of nankeens, it is usual, I believe, for the commanders generally to rill up the whole of the excess with teas ; l,008lbs. of tea goes to a ton ; other articles than tea pay an ad valorem duty of 7 per cent. Then it appears that about 38 : OOOlbs. of tea is allowed to be brought by the captain, paying a duty of 7, 17, a. d 37 percent, does he usually bring 20,000 or 25,000, or what proportion does he bring ? — h much depends upon the judgment and disposition of the parties ; I have in some cases confined myself entirely to a tea investment, with the exception of a few hundred pieces of nankeen ; at other times, I have brought a pro- portion EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 679 portion of drugs, such as rhubarb or gamboge ; there is a distinction W, S. Clarke, between black, tea and green, and the exceedings are usually filled up cither Esq. with blatk tea, or an inferior description of green tea, which is sanctioned *— — Y ' being shipped in exceedings ; the liner description of green teas are not beyond a limited extent. Did you in general bring fine teas, or those of the lower qualities ? — The finer teas, to the extent of my indulgence ; teas of inferior quality for my exceedings. Upon those teas upon which you paid a duty of 37 per cent, did you find it a profitable adventure, that it yielded a fair return of profit in general ? — A moderate profit upon teas that were in my exceedings ge- nerally. Do not the commanders of India ships sometimes purchase their of- ficers' homeward tonnage from China, for the purpose of bringing teas ? — Fiequently. Are the officers entitled to similar indulgences, and to a similar pri- vilege of bringing nome teas, upon payment to the Company of the rates already stated ? — Yes, according to the extent of their respective privileges. What do the captains generally pay to the officers for their ton- nage ? — That fluctuates very much ; 1 have known it from jClO up to J^40 a ton. Do not the commanders, on a voyage to China, pay to the Company a further sum of JjoOO ? — They do. Upon what account is that money paid ? — It is paid as a charge under the head of freight in our accounts, it was adopted in the year »7Q6. Is that confined to a China voyage ? — No ; it applies to all the Com- pany's regular ships. If any mode could be adopted by which the payment of so large a sum as 37 per cent, upon tea could be avoided, would not the temptation of smuggling be reduced to that extent ?— If there existed the disposition, and a facility of smuggling, I apprehend it would. When b*SO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jf . 6. Clarke, When you were in the command of a ship in t heCompany's service, Esq. were you allowed to take out for sale in China, every article of British manufacture? — We were precluded from taking woollens, fire-arms, or warlike stores. Were you allowed to take out tin ? — Tin also was prohibited, unless by special permission. Do you recollect any other articles ? — No other articles occur to me at the present moment. Were you allowed to take out those goods upon the payment of any duty to the Company, or were they absolutely prohibited ? — They were absolutely prohibited unless leave was granted : I think I have understood some commanders going to China have been allowed to take a limited quantity of tin, on special application, but without any additional payment to the Company. What was the change of system in 1796, which occasioned the charge of ,£500 payable by the captains to the Company ? — It was at that period that the Company adopted the system of hiring their ships by open com- petition, and doing away the existing sale of commands which had before been practised. To what purpose is the ^OO so paid applied, is it applied to any par- ticular purpose ?— As I was taught to understand, in some degree as a compen-ation to the Company, in return for paying off those commanders to a certain amount,not exceeding J. 5,000, who had previously purchased their commands ; and that the future commanders should thereupon not be upon a better footing than those who had already paid for their commands. Will that payment cease when the Company shall have received their full compensation ? — I believe the officers in the service have generally encouraged that expectation. Are the Company's outward-bound regular ships of 1200 tons, generally fully laden on the voyage out to India and China ? — Gene- rally so. Does it not sometimes happen that there has been vacant tonnage ? — It has never occurred in the ship I have commanded. Have EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. b'Sl Have not you performed several voyages to Bombay and China ? — I W. S. Clarke, have made three successive voyages of that description. Esq. Of what has your investment to Bombay generally been composed ? — Generally of the staple articles; viz. iron, copper, &c. with beer, wine, and a general assortment of other descriptions of goods : on the two former of my voyages to Bombay the greater part of my investment consisted of specie. What has been the general out-turn of your investments to Bombay ? — The general out-turn has been a moderate profit. Have you considered that you made a fair remittance to India by suck investment ? — Yes. In what year did you carry out specie to Bombay ? — The first year I think was 1805 ; the second was, I believe, 1807. What was the market price of specie at that time in England? (meaning dollars) of which it is presumed your investment of specie was composed ? — I speak from recollection, but I think sixty-five pence, per ounce. State what was the sale price then in Bombay, how many rupees for a hundred dollars ? —I again speak from recollection, I think it was 228 or 229 rupees per 100 dollars. In what year did you perform your third voyage to Bombay? — In 1810. Do you recollect what was the market price of silver then in England ? — I do not recollect further than this, that it was at so high a rate, I did not venture to purchase it. Do you recollect what was the market price of dollars at that time in Bombay? — I think it was 219 rupees the 100 dollars, but I speak this from recollection. Can you inform the Committee of the weight of the dollar f — 1,1 53 dollars weigh 1,000 ounces. Do you recollect what the exchange was between England and Bombay 4 S in "V— b'82- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE IV. S Clarke, in the years 1805 and 1807 ? — Not having had any remittances to maiiey. Fsq. I really cannot say. Whom where you in the habit of employing as your agent, or dubasb,. at Bombay, in disposing of your cargoes in the three voyages you wen e~ to that place ? — Ardaseir Dady was my dubasb... Did you ever employ European agents in the sale of your outward in>. vestment, or the purchase of your cottons for China ? — No. It is within your knowledge that this practice of employing native, agency, in the disposal and purchase of investments, has ever been de- viated from, by captains of Indiamen ? — I am not aware of its having been deviated from. Having stated that, in your opinion, the effect of opening the China trade would be a very great rise in the price of teas there, are you of, opinion that any effect would be produced on the general quality of the teas by the trade being so opened ? — I think that the effect would be, that teas would be imported into this country of a very inferior quality to^ those now imported... Are not you aware of instances in which goods allowed to be pur- chased in China by private merchants, have risen nearly a hundred per cent, in value, in the course of the last ten or twelve years ; the articles' alluded to are sugar, tuthenague, and raw silk? — Never having dealt in- any of the articles specified, 1 cannot give any distinct opinion. Have you heard of the quality of those goods now enumerated, having been very much adulterated, in consequence of the competition for them ? ■ — I. have certainly understood the sugars to be so. Is it usual for the country ships alluded to by you, to carry teas to, India ? — I apprehend for the supply of India only. Have the goodness to state, in what manner the advance or discount upon the invoice, as the case may be, of goods sold in India is esti- mated, whether inclusive or exclusive of he chr ges ? — Exclusive of charges. Are the charges incurred upon the invoice added to the cost of the goods, or do they appear upon the face of the invoice as a separate charge ?. — • They EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. G8.J They appear upon the face of the invoice as a separate charge, and in many W. S Clarfo, instances are allowed at the prime cost. Esq. ' „ ' Do you know of any instance in which an advance or discount has been calculated upon those charges ? — I should apprehend the charges are always inserted at specifically what they are. And no advance or discount allowed upon them ? — No advance or discount allowed upon them. In speaking of the proportionate amount of duties paid upon teas, I enumerated seven, seventeen, and thirty-seven per cent.; I also stated that, in those teas shipped as exceedings, we brought home teas of lower prices, either confined to black, teas, or an inferior sort of green teas, under the description of Hyson skins ; I ought perhaps to have added, that there is an additional charge of twenty per cent., making it altogether fifty-seven per cent., provided the finer de- scription of green teas, beyond double the quantity in the indulgence, is brought home. Is the five hundred pounds alluded to by you, paid only once, or at the conclusion of every voyage ? — At the conclusion of every voyage. Do the commanders of the honourable Company's 1200 ton ships reap any advantage of consequence from passengers? — Certainly not those from China. Do not all the Company's 1200 tons ships go to China? — I believe there have been some exceptions, where they have gone to Bengal or Bombay. Have not those ships afterwards gone to China? — In the case of the Henry Addington from Bengal, and of the Wexford from Bombay, they have returned direct to Europe. Are those the only two instances you are aware of in which ships of 1200 tons have not gone to China ultimately ? — Those are the only two instances which immediately occur to my recollection, but there are others. Have the goodness to state your opinion of the character of the native agents or dubashes at Bombay? — I think them persons of great re- spectability. A S 2 Have 6t>4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE i 11 . S. Clarke, Have you not placed every reliance upon their honour and integrity. i- s I- and intrusted them with all your property, upon the several voyages you v ' have made to that place ? — Yes, 1 have. Have you ever found that trust abused in any way ? — No. [The Witness withdrew. Lieutenant-Colonel Sir JOHN MALCOLM was called in, and ex- amined by the Committee as follows : Lieut. Colonel Do you wish to correct any part of your evidence ? — In page 109 of my Sir J. Malcolm, examination, a question was asked me, " Might not an increase in the •* ' knowledge of useful arts in the natives, conveyed by British subjects re- sident in India, tend to strengthen the British government in Indiar" my answer was, " I conceive that such knowledge might tend, in a consi- derable degree, to increase their own comforts and their enjoyment of life ; but 1 cannot see how it would tend in any shape to strengthen the political security of the English government in India, which- appears to me to rest peculiarly upon their present condition ;" I wish to add, that I mean by stating that the political security of the English government in India appears to rest peculiarly upon the present condition of the native subjects, to refer to their actual divisions into ca^ts, with particular duties and occupations, and to that reverence and respect which they entertain for Europeans, not only on account of their knowledge of the superior branches of science, but also of their better knowledge of many of the mechanical and more useful arts in life ; and therefore, though 1 conceive that the communication of such knowledge to the natives would add to their comforts, and their enjoyments of life, and would increase their strength as a community, I do not think that the communication of any knowledge, which tended gradually to do away the subsisting distinctions among our native subjects, or to diminish that respect which they enter- tain for Europeans, could be said to add to the political strength of the English government. I am far, however, from stating an opinion that the contemplation of its even lessening that strength, which is to be viewed as a distant, and many may conceive, a speculative danger, should operate as a motive with the English government to check the progress of improvement in such useful arts among its native subjects ; but it appears to me one, among many other causes, that should keep the English government very awake to the growing difficulty of governing the Indian empire. Are V ' EAST-INDIA COMPANY S AFFAIRS. GS5 Are not you of opinion, that to increase the comforts and enjoyments Lieut. Colonel of life of the native population of India, would tend to strengthen their Sir J. Malcolm. attachment to the British government, and consequently to stengthen and insure the stability of that government in India r— From all I have ever been able to observe of nations, I do not think we can calculate upon gratitude for benefits of the nature described, as an operating motive that would at all balance against the danger of that strength which such a community as that of our Indian subjects might 'derive from the general diffusion of knowledge and the eventual abolition of its casts, a consci- ousness of which would naturally incline them to throw off the yoke of a foreign power; and such they always mu-t consider the British in India; I wish to be understood as alluding in this answer to a danger that is very remote, but yet, in my opinion, worthy of attention. Are not the natives of India, in your opinion, susceptible of gratitude in the highest degree ; have you not known instances of generosity and liberality on the part of the natives of India which would have done honour to any men in any age ?• — I think the natives of India, individually considered, are susceptible of gratitude, and I have known many in- stances of liberality and generosity among them; but I do not conceive that we can, as I stated before, calculate upon such motives as likely to influence the community, which we shall always find it difficult to rule in proportion as it obtains union and possesses the power of throwing off that subjection in which it is now placed to the British government. What is your opinion of the general character of the natives of India for honour, fidelity, and veracity ? — I have, in my former evidence, stated, that the various communities of our subjects in India differ as much, , perhaps, as the various nations in Europe. It is only possible, therefore, to give a general answer to this question. I have observed, not only throughout India, but in all the different governments in Asia, which I have travelled over, that, speaking generally, the veracity of the subjects has depended very much upon the government under which they were placed : where that was tyrannical, the oppressed subjects have had re- course to falsehood, as the means of defending themselves against oppres- sion ; and I have known in Mahometan governments, a thousand cases in which the falsehood was persevered in by heads of villages and other men, (though torture even was inflicted) with a view of saving their own daughters, and those of the persons in the village, from violation, or their property from plunder. In such situations and conditions of life, false- hood almost became a virtue ; and men, amid such scenes, acquired a » habit - 0'S6 "MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON TIIE Lieut. Colonel habit of concealing the truth in all points connected with their own pro- XirJ. Malcolm, perty, or that of the persons immediately under them. When a govern- * — y — ' merit that regards justice succeeds to such tyranny as I have described, it requires many years before its subjects can believe that it does not mean to exercise its power in the same manner to which they have been ac- customed, and changes in the habits of a nation must be gradual. It is also to be observed, that the officers of the English government, though many of them speak the language of th: natives what is called tolerably well, have seldom that very minute knowledge of the idiom of the dif- ferent dialects of India that can enable them fully to understand the story of a low or an ignorant native : and it is, in my opinion, to the habits arising out of former oppression, and to the want of a full knowledge of the language in those with whom they communicate, that we must refer most of those general and indiscriminate accusations against our Indian subjects, for falsehood as a national vice. I have hardly ever known where a person did understand the language, or where a calm communi- >^ cation was made to a native of India through a well-informed and trust- worthy medium, that the result did not prove that what had first been stated as falsehood had either proceeded from fear, or from misappre- hension ; I by no means wish to state, that our Indian subjects are more free from this vice than other nations that occupy a nearly equal condi- tion in ^ciety, but I am positive, that they are not more addicted to it. With respect to the honour of our native subjects, it is (as that feeling is understood in this coun'ry) chiefly cherished by the military tribes df India ; among them I have known innumerable instances of its being catried to a pirch that would be considered in England, more fit for the page of a romance than a history : with regard to their fidelity, 1 think, as tar as my knowledge extends, there are, genet. ally speaking, no raceof men mor to be trusted ; I can mention large classes of menials, such as the (_ eitoo palanquin-boys at Madras, who amount to 20 or 30,000, and a great proportion of whom are employed by the English government, or the individuals serving it, who, as a body, are remarkable for their honesty and fidelity; during a period of nearly thirty years, I cannot call to mind one instance being proved of thefr, in any one of this class of men, whose average wages is from three rupees a month, to eight rupees, or from 7s. 6d to ,£\. I remember hearing of one instance of extraordi- nary fidelity; where an officer died at the distance of near 300 miles from the settlement of Fort St. George, with a sum of between 2 and «^3,000 in his palanquin : These honest men, alarmed at even suspicion attaching to them, salted him, brought him 300 miles to Madras, and lodged him in the town major's office with all the money sealed in bags. Among the natives EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 687 natives in our military, I can speak the feelings, I believe, of all officers Lieut. Colonel well acquainted with them, that it never enters into our Contemplation, Sir J. Malcolm. that we are to be deceived or defrauded by a Seapoy ; and as far as I can * -y ' judge from the character of that class of men, what the rest must be (wherever they have equal confidence in the Europeans who communicate with them as the Seapoys have in their officers) I should state that there are few large communities in the world whose dispositions are better, or (speaking to the virtues described in the question; more praiseworthy: it may also be stated as a general proof of their possessing those qua- lities, the attachment which almost all European masters who reside in India feel for their native servants ; this feeling amongst those who un- derstand the language, and who are of good temper and character, is almost without an exception: I may be allowed toadd a circumstance thattook place in my own family; when ordered to Persia in 1800, I had, from the public situation I held, a numerous retinue of native servants, con- sisting of between twenty and thiity ; among these were men from the furthest boundary of Hindostan to Cape Comorin, and of almost all casts and religions : 1 told them I was going to Persia, and I am certain, from their total ignorance of geography, that they had no more idea of the quarter to which they were about to proceed, than if I had told them I was going to America ; but there was not the slightest objection made by any individual to follow me to that country, and I am sure that they showed this a'tachment to me from nothing more than that common good usage, which never has, in any instance that I recollect, failed of attach- ing, them. You spoke of the attachment of the native troops to their officers, do ycu think that attachment is as strong now, particularly in the Madras army, as it was some years ago, or have any events lately occurred that have shaken that attachment ? — I fear many events have occurred in the Madras army, which have very seriously shaken that attachment, some of these have arisen from remote causes, and others, out of recent circumstances, upon which I conceive it is not necessary for me to dwell. Do you conceive that the good feelings and sincere attachment to the native officers of that army are essential to the continuance of our military power in India? — I conceive that our native army in India may be said to form, at once, the safety and the danger of that Empire; and I con- ceive that the native officers are the great and important link by which we must expect to hold that army in good order and subordination to our government : I therefore do conceive, that the good feelings and attach- ment : 688 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Colonel ment of the native officers are quite essential to the continuance and Sir J. Malcolm, security of our power in India. ~^ r " Do you deem it of importance to the security of our Indian empire, to study every means that can strengthen and confirm the attachment of the native officers? — I do ; and I consider, after the full.st delibera- tion that I have been able to give that subject, that if we do not succeed in effecting that object, it is quite impossible we should be able to main- tain our empire in India. Is it your opinion that the attachment of this class depends entirely upon the measures adopted by government for their encouragement, or do you think it liable to be seriously affected by any defects in the con- stitution of any part of our European military establishment attached to those corps ? — I do not think that any measures of government, however wise and however calculated, in an abstract point of view, to effect the object, could do so, unless they were combined with such as remedied any existing defects, and prevented the occurrence of any hereafter, in the European part of the establishment, because it is, after all, upon the conduct of the European officers that we must chiefly rest, and they will always be considered by the natives as their immediate superiors, from whom their feeling will naturally take its colour ; and any defects in one part of the system must consequently prove baneful to the other. Do you think it would be advisable to change that part of the military system by which native officers sit on courts-martial for the trial of offences in the native army, and to appoint European officers to that duty? — Though I have never, during the course of my service, had proof of any substantial act of injustice resulting from native officers sitting on a court-martial, I have often heard it alleged, that they were too ready to give way to the wishes of the superintending European officer, from fee'ings of submission and respect to that officer; but it is to be observed, that officer is almost always the adjutant of the corps, and generally one of the most experienced in it ; but supposing that more substantial justice should be obtained, in some instances, by European officers sitting as members of courts-martial upon natives, I should still state that I think it would be very improper to make any such alteration in the system : my reasons for this opinion refer as much, if not more, to political than military considerations. Have you had an opportunity of observing how the interpreters in the courts of justice in India, at the different presidencies, are qualified for the situations which they fill ? — I never was in any court of supreme justice EAST-INDIA COMPANYS AFFAIRS. GSQ justice in India, except that at Bombay, where my able and eloquent Lieut C friend Sir James Mackintosh presided; and I certainly did not think the Sir J. M I ■>'■ . native interpreter employed at that court very adequate to his duty; *~ indeed the only instance to which my memory can at present refer, was noticed by Sir James Mackintosh himself, and a gentleman who had knowledge of the language, and happene 1 to be in court, was sworn in by desire, of the judge to examine the evidence ; I may .add, generally, that I believe there arc not fifty European gentlemen in India fully qualified, from their minute knowledge of the idiom of the vulgar dia- lects of the natives in India, to give a completely correct translation of the evidence of a native cross-questioned in one of our courts of justice.. This, however, is merely given as my opinion. Might not, in your opinion, a competent interpreter be obtained in the course of a few years, if sufficient encouragement were given to Europeans to qualify themselves for that important situation? — 'I he defect of native interpretation arises from their want of correct knowledge of the idiom of the English language ; that of Europeans from their want of correct knowledge of the different and local idioms of the native lan- guages. It must be almost the study of an European's life, to render himself fully competent for such an office; and I conceive, nothing but the prospect of a large salary could induce any European, of respectable talents, to devote his whole time to the accomplishment of that object. Would not, in your opinion, the important object of security to the lives and property of the natives of India justify almost any pecuniary consideration that might be necessary, on the score of salary, to obtain competent interpreters ? — I am far from stating that I think the misin- terpretation has, on any occasion, gone so far in any of His Majesty's courts of justice, as to affect either the lives or property of our sub- jects; because I do believe, from what. I witnessed in the court of Bom- bay, that there is a patient investigation, and a minute inquiry into all the particulars of the case, that must be calculated (in almost all instances) to discover any such errors as may be made; but I do cer;ainly think it is an object of great importance to have gentlemen possessed of the first knowledge of the languages, to fill that situation. What alary, in your opinion, would be necessary as an inducement to an European gentleman so qualified, io undertake the important office oi interpreter ; - I real y cannot state any sum, but I think it should be such as to make it worth while for a man of liberal education to devote his life to render himself qualified !or the office. 4 T Could 6j}0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE limit. Coionel Could not you form a guess frpm your general knowledge of the salaries ■Sir J. Malcolm, and allowances paid to the officers of His Majesty':, courts in India, what v J sinn would be considered a, sufficient encouragement to a gentleman so qualified, to undertake that office? — I, think the salary of a p?rs.-n em- ployed as such interpreter should be inferior to none but that of die judges themselves who preside in the cou;t, Do yon think it possible that substantial justice can be dispensed with- out faithful interpretation of evidence? — I think that where a judge is fully aware that the interpretation is not minutely correct, the evil u.ay be avoided by his careful and patient investigation of eveiy quesa a that is put to the evidence, and by his calling in, as thftj ;dge o whom 1 have alluded used to do, further aid whenever there was the slightest cause for suspicion of incorrect inter p relation. Are the judges in the courts in India supposed to have a competent knowledge of the language of the country; is it possible they can have isuch competent knowledge? — Generally speaking, I do not believe they have ; but there are always, I imagine, officers of the court who have, and 1 conceive it perfectly possible that in most cases, a judge, who has given his whole attention to the subject, may be able to discover when there is any confusion in the interpretation : i am npt able to give any clearer answer upon this point. Is it within your knowledge, that the able and eloquent judge you have just alluded to possesses that competent knowledge of the languages of India ? Sir James Mackintosh does not understand the languages of India. Have the goodness to state in what manner he was enabled to point out the defect in the interpretation of the evidence of a witness brought before him, to which you have alluded ? — On the occasion to which I alluded, a Parsee inhabitant of Bombay was interpreting in the court at Bombay ; he was interpreting an evidence that was describing what he bad ^aid himse f, and in describing that, made use of the first person singular of an Ilindos- tanee noun, stating, " / c aid so and so:" — In his evidence he proceeded to give an account of an English officer coming in, and the interpreter then explained the witness to have remarked, that the English officer said " we will do so and so ;" on seeing the word we noticed by some of the gentlemen of the law, and written down as if containing a proof that there were more than one concerned, I mentioned to Sir James Mackintosh that the interpretation was incorrect, not from a want of knowledge in the in- terpreter EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 6§\ terpreter of his own language, but from want of knowledge of the idiom Lieut, Co'oirl oftheEngli h; that the native witness speaking of an EogTiiti gertl.-man, SirJ.Mulcohn. used the plural term from tespect, and on the witness being re-examined, * y- ... * it was discovered to be the case. This is the only insuice that I can call to my recollection. Are you aware, that so much impressed was Sir James Mackintosh with the necessity of havhg competent interpreters, that he applied to Government to annex a sufficient salary to that office, to induce an Eu- ropean gentleman of respectability to undetake it; which salary, however, was so limited, that the gentleman who had undertaken it, Mr. Erskine, and who was considered as having a more competent knowledge of the various languages of liidia, than perhaps any other resident at Bombay, threw up the appointment, after having held it about two years ? — I am nor particularly acquainted with the circumstance, but have no doubt of the fact. Are there not many of the military officers who have a very competent knowledge of the Indian language, ? — The great majority of the officer s have a knowledge of the languages competent to the fulfilment of their military duties ; but there are but few who have that exact and complete knowledge of the language, which I should pronounce as requisite before a person was competent to act as interpreter in a court of justice. Are you not of opinion, that if an adequate salary were to be held out to some of those officers, they would be induced to qualify themselves fully for the office of interpreter,and to undertake that appointment onbeingper- mitted by Government to resign their military situations (if that should be deemed necessary), which probably would not be the case ? — The existence of one office of that kind, with a large salary, and which was to carry away military men from the duties of their profession, could, I conceive, have but a slight operation (if any at all) in the encouragement of a large body of officers, among whom it never could be regarded as an object of ambi- tion ; but no do nut many individuals might be found, to whom it would, from its salary, be a desirable office. What is the pay and allowance of a subahern onthe Bombay establish- ment? — I really cannot answer, without rtference to papers. Does it amount to 300 rupees a month ? — Certainly not. 4 T 2 Are 692 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Colonel A re there subalterns of eight or ten years standing, in the service ? — Sir J. Malcolm. There are some, I apprehend, of much longer standing. You have stated, that you had a number of servants of different casts in your employ, during your residence in India ; did you nor occasionally clothe those servants in European dresses ? — During the last fourteen years of my service in India, which includes a'l the period that I was able to afford to give servants rny clothing at all, I was employed in political si- tuations, and my servants were generally cloathed in woollens ^as a matter of state) at the Company's expense. Do you think those persons would have preferred their dresses, had they been made of the common comlie of the country? — I really cannot state how far their pride and vanity might have been gratified by wearing a red jacket instead of one of common cloth ; but I can recollect no instance of their complaining, either of the one or the other, and they were seldom permitted to put on the clothing allowed to them, except on occasions where their services were required as state servants. With respect to corn- lies, I conceive they all had them as a man has a cloak in this country, to use when it rained, or as a covering when they slept ; but I never knew comlies made up as articles of dress. Are these comlies used at all by the higher classes of the natives ? — They make in some parts of the Peninsula of India very fine comlies that are used by the higher classes ; the common black comlie is not used by natives who can afford to purchase the finer kind, or shawls. Would not a native of consequence in India be ashamed to appear abroad in a common black comlie ? — I do not think a native of consequence would wear the common black comlie as part of his dress ; he might take up one to defend him from a shower of rain. He would not wear it as a common article of dress ? — No. Would he have the same objection to appear abroad in English broad- cloth, which he would have to appear abroad in a common bl >ck comlie, as an article of dress ? — He would consider a piece of English broad-cloth, if he had it, as a luxury, and an ornamental part of dress, and would have no objection whatever, I conceive, to wearing it. Are you acquainted with the number of the native population called Portuguese, or native christians,in India ? — I am not particularly acquainted with EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 0':/3 with their number ; if it is meant to include also what are termed half- LieuK Colonel casts'or the children of Englishmen by native women, it is a very cor.- Sir J. Malcolm. siderable population, but limited cliicflv to the principal settlements «>f ^ v — ' India, and rhere even, if spoken of comparatively with the natives, it forms but a small part; Are not the habits and dress of those people, generally speaking, Eu- ropean, aid do they not always dress in European woollens, when they can afford to purchase them ? — The dress of the better class differs very little from that of the European himself. Do you know, or have you ever heard, what was the state of the native armies of the Rajahs of Travancore and Cochin, when those princes were perfectly independent of the British government ? — 1 never was at Cochin or Travancore, and cannot answer with any minute or correct knowledge to this question. Have you heard that, at the period alluded to, the infantry of those princes was dressed in woollen cloth jackets, and their principal Hindoo officers in complete European uniforms, including hats, shoes and boots : — I cannot call to my memory hiving heaid the fact with respect to the par- ticulars of their dress ; but I have heard there was a regular infantry ; clothed and disciplined, belonging to the prince of Travancore. Clothed in European woollens ? — Clothed in European woollens, as I have heard. Are you personally acquainted with the late Coorga Rajah, and do you know how that Hindoo prince used to dress himself when in General Aber- cromby's camp ? — I was not acquainted with the late Coorga Rajah, and cannot, therefore, state how lie dressed himself, but always heard that he was particularly attached to the English nation ; that he was fond of our habits and manners, and he was, in this instance, deemed an exception to the general rule of persons in his condition of life. Do you know how the Nabob of Surar, and his ministeT the Bukshy, used to dress his troops and principal attendants when that prince was also in a state of independence, or have you ever heard ? — I never was at Surat, and do not know, nor have I ever heard. Can you state how Raymond's force in the Nizam's service was dressed, previously to the dissolution of that corps in ]798 ? — The greatest part of that 694 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut. Colonel that corps was, to the best of my recollection, dressed nearly in the same Sir /. Malcolm, manner as any corps in the English service. < ■ v ■-' Do you know, or have you heard, whether a considerable part of the infantry in the services of the various Mahratta princes, were not also dressed in woollen uniforms, previous to the late Mahratta war ? — I know they were, because I have seen several of the brigades in the arm)' of Dowlut Rao Scindiah. Can you state of what number those infantry consisted, or nearly so ; did it consist of many thousands? — Certainly; those I have seen were probably in number seven or eight thousand men, and they were not above a fourth of the whole corps ; but I cannot speak to any others being dressed in the manner described, from not having seen them. Did any of the Mahratta chiefs, at the time you were in that part of the country, use Buish woollen cloth as mantles, or in any other shape or form, as winter dresses ? — I do not recollect seeing them otten dressed in woollens; they used generally to use it for their saddle cloths and floor cloths for their tents, but I do not believe that they had any objection to it, and no doubt many of the principal men in the Mahratta army might occasionally use it ; but it was certainly not a general dress. It was only used by the richer chiefs ? — Only by the richer, quilt- ed cottons and silks were a much more usual warm dress among the Mahratta chiefs and soldiers. Do not the natives of eminence In India, both Hindoo and Mussulmen, useconsiderable quantities of broad-cloths in the housings ot their elephants, camels, and horses ? — They use it in the trammels and housings of their state elephants and state camels, not in those that are employed for burthen. Have you ever been at Poonah on anv great festival day, when the natives appeared abroad in great state ? — 1 have been at Poonah several times, and I was on one occasion there on the Dessera feast, which is the festival at which the army at that city go out to plunder a field of grain, as a ty f ,e of their national policy. Is h<°re not on tho-e occasions a considerable display of woollen broad- cloth, partumlarly carlet, used in the manner above descrb-d, by the natives ? — I took no such particular notice at the period I have men- tioned EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 605 tioned as would enable me to answer the question minutely; but I have Uoif Cn'onrl no doubt they make a display of every showy article they possess on that Sir J. Muco'm. occasion, and such they would consider scarlet cloth. » v • Be pleased to state how the Seiks, and the other northern nations of India, commonly dress, or whether they use woollens, particularly among the richer orders ? — There is very little difference in ihe dress of' the Seik chiefs from those of the other Hindoo nations in India, and I do not think that woollens were (when I saw them) a very common article of dress, certainly not more so than amongst other classes of the natives of India. Are not great quantities of iron, steel, copper, lead, and tin, now in common use among the natives of India of all casts ? — Certainly, all these metals are in use amongst them ; I have no means of stating in what quantity. Is not the cut glass ware of England very much admired by the richer natives of India, and are not their houses occasionally furnished with chan- deliers, lamps, mirrors, and other articles of European manufacture ? — The richer natives of India, perhaps, admire our mirrors and cut glass more than any other article we possess ; and I have observed at the principal cities, such as Hydrabad, Poonah, &c. that a few of the princes and the richest offices of the court, used to purchase enough of those articles to make what they term an innah khanah, or room of mirrors. The walls of this room are covered with mirrors, and it is hung round with chan- deliers ; but cut glass and mirrors certainly are not articles generally pos- sessed, even by the richest, and are always considered as articles of grtat shew and luxury. Were not those articles, when they were' procured, considered as ob- jects of luxurious gratification ?— Certainly, they appeared to be desired only as objects of gratification and curiosity.- Are not watches, prints, pictures, carpeting* elegant fowling-pieces, pistols, and other articles of highly finished execution and workmanship, also deemed objects of luxurious gratification by the richer natives of India ? — The richer natives of India generally desire a watch or watches ; as to pictures, they have so little taste that they often prefer the daubs of China to the finest works of the artists of this country ; but perhaps China pictures are also recommended by their comparatively low price; the car- pets made in India, and those imported from Persia, are I believe gene- rally preferred to the European manufacture y fowling-pieces and pistols are 6&8' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lit id. Colonel are desired by the principal chiefs; but with the exception of one or '-two Sir J. Malcolm, princes, I have hardly ever known these articles purchased, though all the military chiefs in India are desirous of .obtaining them in presents. Have not you, particularly during your residence at Bombay, seen se- veral of the richer natives dressed in Irish linen, or Scotch and Manchester cambrics ?— I am almost ashamed to confess, that I am so very bad a judge of such articles, that I could not distinguish very well between the manufactures of India and those of the cloths described in the question; but I have no doubt many of them did dress in them, it they were cheaper, and the fabric equal to those of their own cloths. Do you recollect whether they used the printed cottons of this country frequently in furniture, and the lower classes in articles of dress and in turbans? — I have frequently seen the printed cottons of this country in articles of furniture at the houses ot the superior Parsee merchants, which were fitted up like those ot Europeans, and many of the lower classes (particularly those called Portuguese) were very fond, when they could obtain it, of wearing a fine printed cotton jacket, but I do not think this was, as far as I have observed, a general wear; the Masulipatam printed chintzes, were I believe much cheaper, and were an article of very great consumption both at Bombay, the Persian Gulph, and other countries in that quarter of India. Are you quite sure that they were cheaper than the printed chintzes of England? — -I am almost positively certain of the fact; I carried great numbers of both European chintzes and Masulipatam with me in all my different missions to Persia, to give in presents to different people who rendered service to the mission, and also with the view of giving them patterns ot the different manufactures of England and India; and I can recollect, that the common reward of any small service was a piece of Masulipatam chintz, while I am sure that I never gave a piece of English chintz to any man who had not a title, or who was not a person of some consideration : The Masulipatam chintz is an article of very general wear all over Persia, and there is a considerable trade carried on between that port and the gulph. I did not observe, when on the last mission to Persia, that there was a demand tor European chintz as an article of trade, or that it had become a common wear, though every means had been taken by me ten years before to give the Persians a taste for it ; and as it seemed to me much handsomer and of better quality than the Indian manufacture, I can only refer its not being in equal use to its bearing a higher price. Were EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 6QT Were you at Bombay when Sir Robert Peel's consignment of those Lieut -Colonel goods came out? — lam not aware that I was; I know nothing of the Sir J.Malcolm. consignment. v-- Be pleased to state, whether the richer natives at the different presi- dencies of India do not commonly drive European carriages ? — Some of the richer natives at our principal settlements drive carriages made in the English style ; some of which are from England, and others, particularly at Bengal, made at the settlement. Do you recollect, when you were last at Bombay, a carriage driven by Pestangee, a Parsee ? — I do ; it was a very fine one. Just before you left Bombay, did not Pestangee buy another carriage that had been built for one of the sheriffs of London, or adorned in that fashion ? — I believe he did ; Pestangee had a great number of carriages, in which he used to ride himself, and sometimes to accommodate his friends when they were in want ; and I am grateful enough to acknow- ledge being one that has often received this accommodation from him. Had not another rich merchant of the name of Dady Mooda, at this time, also a very elegant carriage ? — He had ; I have had the use of his carriage also, when in distress for a conveyance. Had not Ornagee, another Parsee, a very rich carriage ? — I have no doubt he had, probably more than one. Were not the smaller carriages called gigs, in very common use among the natives of India ? — They were very common, but very few of those were of European manufacture, the others were a coarser imitation of the European gigs. During your residence at Bombay, had you an opportunity of visiting the Island of Salsette ? — I often visited the Island of Salsette. Be pleased to state your opinion of the condition of that Island, and the inhabitants, generally? — The improvement of the Island of Salsette has certainly been very gradual and slow, and it has perhaps been in some de- gree neglected ; the most substantial improvement that I have known within my recollection, was that of forming a causeway which connected it with the Island of Bombay ; there is also a good road for sixteen miles, to Tanna ; and another road was, I understood, in progress when I left 4 U India, 698 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Lieut Colonel India, to a different part of the island ; but the inhabitants, generally Sir J. Malcolm, speaking, did not appear to me in a state of that prosperity which might v_ i have been expected from the vicinity of the Island of Salsette to such a rich commercial settlement as Bombay ; I am not, however, sufficiently master of this subject, to state either the causes that promoted the improvement it has received, or those that have retarded its attaining to a higher state ot cultivation and prosperity. Was it not considered to be in a considerably worse state than what was generally understood to be the condition of the island under the Portu- guese government ? — I really have not that minute information which would enable me to answer that question in a manner satisfactory to the Committee : I cannot state a vague report upon such a subject. During your residence at Bombay, did you ever visit the Mahratta district of Basseen r — I never did vis.it it j I have seen it from the opposite shore. Did you not hear, during your residence at Bombay, of the general state and condition of that district ? — I have always heard it was in a very highly improved state of cultivation. Are you aware of any reason, whether from soil, or climate, or geo- graphical position, why Salsette should be in so inferior a state to that of the Mahratta district of Basseen ? — Never having visited Basseen, I can- not draw a comparison ; some parts of Salsette are very hilly and woody, and would, no doubt, require a considerable degree of labour to bring them into a state of high cultivation. Is not Salsette generally, as far as you have observed, a very fertile soil ? — I have seen some very fertile parts of it ; but I am not sufficiently acquainted with the general nature of the soil to give a distinct answer to the question. Have you heard that the causeway between the Islands of Bombay and Salsette, alluded to by you, has had a prejudicial effect upon the harbour of Bombay, by interrupting the back tide, and lessening the depth of wa- ter in some places ? — I have heard apprehensions stated, that such would be the effect ; I have no information that enables me to say, whether it has bad such effect, or not. Are you acquainted with the manufacture of shawls in Cashmire, and the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. &>9 the causes of their superior excellence ?— I have, in the course of my in- Lieut. Coloihel vestigation into the general history of India, translated what was consider- Sir J. M.il_ ^- ^ ., , j Supposing, from so material a change of system as an open trade, the Indian trade should be conducted by other persons from the- out-ports, would the commanders and officers of the East-India Company have tha means of easily resorting to other professions, or do you think, they would be thrown out of employment ?— No doubt they would suffer very mate- rially from the competition that must come in against them. You have stated, that you think the export trade to India has ceased to be advantageous since the increased facilities which were given by the East-India Company ; be pleased to state how those increased facilities have operated, so as to produce that effect ? — By enabling them to send out a quantity of goods of various descriptions. Did you attempt to make any sales in your passage, at either of the islands in the eastern seas?— In the last voyage I made to China, knowing I should go the, eastern passage, sailing late from this country, I took out three or four articles which I supposed were most likely to meet with a sale in the eastern islands. Name those articles? — Cutlery of different descriptions, and pulicat handkerchiefs made at Manchester; the red and blue check handkerchiefs, in imitation of the Madras pulicat handkerchiefs. Any other British manufactures ? — Some remnants of cloth ; I do- not recollect any others particularly. Was the quantity considerable ? — No, it was a few hundred pounds worth only. Did you dispose of those easily and successfully ? — No, I did not. State the result of that adventure ? — The cutlery I disposed of a small quantity for supplies or ships provisions ; the handkerchiefs I disposed of a very small quantity ; I was obliged to bring the greatest part of them back again, not being able to dispose of them at all, not even in the way of barter for provisions. Did you try the Indian articles of the same kind there ? — I had not any; it was in my way from Europe, and it was the first place I touched at from Europe. You EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 707 You did not dispose of all the cutlery ?— No, I did not. Ma it in Lindsay, Esq. What did you do with it ? — I brought some of it home, some little of it """*" was disposed of in China, and some little at St. Helena. Do you remember the amount in value of cutlery ? — About £120 or JO ISO, and about two or three hundred pounds worth of handkerchiefs in imitation of the Indian. Did you endeavour to get money for those articles ? — Money they had very little of, therefore I had no chance whatever ; I endeavoured to dis- pose of them in the way of barter, buying cattle and vegetables and fruits for the use of the ship ; I saw very little money. "What articles could they have furnished you, supposing they had been disposed to have bought your European articles, with what articles could they have paid ycu besides provisions for your ship ? — Upon that par- ticular island, they had very little, but on some of the adjoining islands I could have got rattans and beetle-nut to have carried on to China. As it was, you failed in selling a material part of your handkerchiefs ? — I did. As well as of your cutlery ? — I did. And brought the remainder of both of them back again?—! did} the principal part of the handkerchiefs I brought back again. The articles of barter, if you had bartered them, were such as would have suited the China trade ? — Yes, the rattans and beetle-nut would have •uited the China market ; but the hland of Lombock is a very small one. I They would not have done to have brought to England ? — Not at all. Supposing you could have bartered in those seas to a greater amount, it would not have consisted of such articles as you could have brought by way of return cargo to England ? — No, it would not from that island. Upon some of the eastern islands there are articles, such as mother-of- pearl shells and tortoise shell, that might have been brought to Europe as an article of trade, but in a very limited degree. Would such articles be very limited in their degree, and very uncertain as to their success ?— Very limited in their degree. 4X2 Nothing 70S ' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE MartinLindsay, Nothing that you would rank amongst the staples ? — Certainly not. Esq. <*-_ -y. i Supposing that every subject in every part of the United Kingdom had access with his vessels to those seas, and that the obtaining of tea were his object, do you apprehend that he would find the means, by proper arrange- ments, of getting as much tea as he might require, for the purposes of his speculation in those seas, without going to Canton ? — I should imagine by a previous arrangement having been made, that the tea might be brought to various islands in the eastern seas, either by China junks, or by American ships, or by country ships. What do you mean by country ships ? — Ships that have gone from other ports in India to China, and probably if there was an arrangement made, they might bring teas to those islands, and take a return of rattans and beetle-nut. Looking to your own experience and the knowledge you have had as an agent, do you think it probable that any successful export of British manufactures could take place, at all material as to its extent, to the islands of the eastern seas ? — Of British manufactures, I should think not. Do you entertain the least doubt of its being utterly improbable that it should ? — I have not the smallest doubt of it. Have you the least doubt of every commander being able, by proper arrangement, to obtain as much tea as he might wish to have in those seas ?~I should suppose, by a proper arrangement, he might get it. Without going to Canton ? — Yes, with previous arrangement. Must not every ship homeward bound from India be of necessity loaded with an assorted cargo of measurable or light goods, together with a cer- tain dead weight for the purposes of ballast ? — Almost all the ships that have yet gone, from their construction, require some dead weight to ballast them. Would that dead weight generally consist of rice, sugar, or saltpetre ? — Sugar I should imagine was the most likely article ; rice I should imagine must be a very hazardous speculation; and saltpetre, I believe, is not per- mitted ; of course sugar becomes the only article j if saltpetre was allowed, no doubt they would take it. As EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7c9 As the law now stands with regard to saltpetre, rice being generally Mu> , fii:L>'i?dsai/, regarded as an unprofitable description of ballast, it would principally, Esq. consist of sugar ? — I should think so j it is the only article I recollect at v . . present. Would that occasion the importation of great quantities of sugar ? — It would increase the quantity greatly, no doubt. There are hardly any limits to the capacity for obtaining it in Bengal, are there ? — No; I believe Bengal could afford great abundance of sugar, I have reason to believe so. In stating the necessity of dead weight, by way of ballast, you say, the ships that have been do require it, you mean it as a general proposition, that all ships that come back from India must be so ballasted } — I fancy there are very few ships, let them be constructed as they may, but would require some dead weight. (Examined by the Committee.) Do you know, or can you judge, to what per centage on the invest- ment, the privileges enjoyed by the Company's officers may amount, what advantage such privileges give them -over other merchants in respect of charges? — I should imagine about fifteen per cent. Having so long left India, you, probably, are not acquainted with the state of the trade in British manufactures now exercised there ? — I cannot speak from my own knowledge, certainly ; only from the conversation I have had with the captains and officers returning from the Presidencies. Do you know, from information which satisfies you, how far most of the different trades for the supply of European articles of furniture, such as coach-makers, cabinet-makers, upholsterers, workers in metals, tailors, shoemakers, and workers in glass, are established there ? — I have under- stood there are in Calcutta, particularly, artificers of almost every des- cription, manufacturers of furniture of different descriptions, very good shoes and boots, and almost every article in leather, and certainly of tailors there are abundance, also manufacturers of various articles in iron and steel, gold and silver ; they make a great deal of the iron work necessary for shipping. Is not the Indian steeljemarkably good ?— I really cannot answer to that. Have 710 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE MartinLindsay, Have you heard that manufactories for preparing coarse glass are esta- Esq. blished at Madras ? — No, I have not heard of that. At present is there any establishment of revenue officers in the Eastern Islands, or any method for securing the revenue by manifests and clear- ances, and preventing any illicit trade in tea ? — I do not know of any. To make such establishments, would it not require in those islands very great exertion and great expense, and would it not be exposed to great risk ? — I should imagine, if it is intended to prevent smuggling, it would require great numbers of vessels of various descriptions to prevent smuggling there, and illicit intercourse between ships. Exclusive of that, would it not be necessary, in order to insure a probability of preventing smuggling, that there should be clearances and manifests brought by those ships, and could those clearances and manifests be brought without having an establishment upon the islands of revenue officers ? — Not if the ships that bring the goods from China are to exchange the property. Would it not be necessary, in order to ensure the probability of pre- vention of smuggling, by those vessels bringing home manifests and clearances, that there should be a revenue establishment upon the islands? — I should imagine both would be necessary to prevent an illicit trade. And to secure manifests and clearances ? — Yes. Do you know at all the proportion the price articles manufactured now in India under British artificers and by native labourers, bears to the price of the same articles imported from Europe ? — No, I cannot speak decidedly to the question. Do you know whether they are the same price or cheaper ? — I should suppose they are cheaper. Do you suppose them to be of such a price, as if the articles are fit for use, would most materially diminish the import of the same articles from England ? — They certainly do hurt the importation from England ; in shoes I can speak particularly ; they are procured much cheaper, and they answer the purpose extremely well, both in China and in India, in fine weather. Is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7 1 1 Is it within your knowledge, that the owners of the country ships that MartinLindsay, frequent China from, India, are bound under a heavy penalty to conform Esq. to all orders and regulations of the supracargoes at Canton, and that they ' , are to put themselves entirely under the directions of the supracargoes during their stay there ? — I do net know it, though I think it is probable that they are. What, in your opinion, would be the effect upon the China market for teas in the event of that trade being opened ? — I should imagine that the teas in China would be increased in price from the great number of ships, and the greater demand for them, from the increased competition. Are not you also of opinion, from the peculiar character of the Chinese, that the quality of teas would be adulterated ? — I think that is very pro- bable, as a number of what are called out-door merchants in China, would have a great deal of the trade to execute. Do not the English East-India Company get the choice of the teas now brought to Canton from the upper provinces ? — I believe they do. Is not the refuse sold to the Americans ? — The best part being bought by the East-India Company, the rest must be sold to the Americans, or any other ships that may be there to take it off. Is there not a description of teas called the old teas, cf the former season, brought down in considerable quantities, and which are always rejected by the Company ? — I imagine whatever tea is bad, whether of that season or the season before, will be rejected by the Company's officer ; they have a person there to examine and to taste the teas. Has not the price of all articles of supply to the ships in Canton increased within the last ten years, nearly double ?— I should think not double ; it has increased from a greater number of ships of different nations having been at Canton, particularly the English. Do you know the price of sugars in China ? — No, I do not recollect particularly. In the course of your experience or knowledge, have any new articles of British manufacture been introduced with success to the consumption ot the natives of India ? — No, I do not recollect any. Are you aware of the great increase of export to India of cotton goods, both. 712 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE MartinLindsay, both printed and plain, within the last ten years? — I think there has been k>q. an increase of printed cotton goods within these last ten years; I understand a * y ' great deal of the printed cotton is for the Portuguese and others ; not so much for the natives as for the Portuguese in various parts of India. Have you not heard of the Hindoos using them as turbans ? — I have understood that they have used some printed cottons for turbans. In your capacity of agent, exporting the printed cottons you speak of, have you ever exported any to the other parts of India, except Bombay ? — As far as I recollect the investments of the captains I have been intrusted for, they have taken some to every part of India. Have you reason to think that they have exported to such advantage as to encourage an increase in the export of them ? — The quantity was in a very small degree, and I believe the advantage arising trom them was pretty nearly equal to the other articles, not particularly profitable, nor otherwise. Have you reason to imagine that will be an increasing article of trade ? — I really cannot hazard an opinion upon that ; I should rather imagine it would not increase very much. Are not the people commonly called Portuguese, alluded to in your former answer, natives of India? — They are so far natives, that thev are born there, though not the aborigines. Do you know the number of that population, or have you ever heard it ? — It is considerable, 1 believe, though I would not venture to specify any number. Do you consider the cotton goods mentioned in your former answer, to be a new article of trade in India, compared with the use or the demand for those goods formerly in that part of the world ? — I believe it is not altogether new, but the quantity expotted ot late has increased probably in some part of India ; they have gotihem where the) had not them some years ago j from the increased quantity sent out, they must have spread abroad. Do you understand the quantity to have increased considerably ? — Not very considerably, probably it has been more than doubie. [The witness withdrew. THOMAS EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S APPALS. "13 THOMAS GARLAND MURRAY, &q. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Grant.'] Are you not commander of a ship in the East-India Com- T. G. Murray, pany's service ? — I am. Esq. Flow long have you been in the marine service of the Company ? — Between six and seven and twenty years. Have you made frequent voyages in that space of time : — I have made either ten or eleven voyages to India and China. Have you been in the habit of availing yourself of the privilege which the Company grant to their marine officers, of expoi ting goods on their own account, freight free ? — As much so as other persons in my situation, I believe. What proportion of the investment which you laid in consisted of such articles as were, in your understanding, adapted to the consumption of the natives of India ? — It depended entirely upon the latest information I had of such articles being wanted, or what I conceived they would be likely to want, from the situation of the market during the time when I was there last. In general, you have found that their demand for European articles has been extensive ? — Very trifling indeed, when compared to the demand of the settlers there. Of what' description of European produce and manufactures were those articles which you conceive to be adapted to the consumption of the na- tives ? — Of the manufactures of this country, and the Continent, (such as Germany and Holland ;) the produce of Birmingham and Sheffield, of this country, being chiefly cutlery and small quantities of hardware ; toys, spectacles, and beads, of Germany and Holland ; and the general produce of Europe, such as quicksilver, saffron, and cochineal, as coming from Europe, being brought from the Peninsula. Would not you include cutlery and hardware in the list of the articles mentioned? — I meant that, when I mentioned Birmingham and Sheffield, particularly, and not the whole produce of Birmingham and Sheffield. % Y During 714 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, During your experience in the marine service of the Company, have you Esq. found the native demand for European manufactures to increase in any > material degree ? — As far as it has affected myself, on the contrary; it is a thing I have never been able to account for to myself, nor has any reason been given by those people of whom I have inquired, that since the fall of Seringapatam, our investments at Madras have never met so ready nor so profitable a sale. « V The instance mentioned in the last answers, refers to the Coromandel Coasr, will vou answer the former question with respect to all parts of British India ? — 1 am not at all acquainted with the coast of Malabar, I have never been on that side of the Peninsula, except just round the southern part of Ceylon. Has the native demand for British manufactures increased during your experience ? — 1 have not found it so myself. Does that fact accord with the general experience of the officers in the marine service of the Company ? — I can only speak as far as my own know- ledge goes. Have you not had opportunities of knowing what degree of encourage- ment other officers in the marine service of the Company have found in prosecuting the export trade of British manufactures to India ? — I have found that they had the same advantages as myself, either as captain or officer respectively. What degree of encourag'ement have they had from the demand in the East ? — That has been very precarious indeed. From your general acquaintance with the export trade, as carried on by the marine officers of the Company, is there, in your judgment, a growing demand on the part of the natives of India for British or European manu- factures ? — Speaking from my own immediate experience, and from what I have suffered, I think not. Do you conceive that the marine officers of the Company have used every exertion to promote, as far as in them lay, the consumption of British manufactures in India ? — I conceive that there are not a more en- terprising body of men than those who are permitted to participate of the privileges of the Company on board the Indiamen. In EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 71 S In your judgment, is it not a great advantage to the class of persons T. G. Murray, mentioned in your last answer, to export free from the charges of freight Esq. and commission ? — I imagine, that inasmuch as they are encouraged to * v — ' speculate now, from being free of freight, their speculations would be greatly reduced if they were obliged to pay freight. Do you mean to imply, that the immunity from the charges of freight and commission has encouraged the officers in the marine service of the Company to export manufactures to a greater extent than they would have otherwise exported ? — I think, that inasmuch as the freight affects the ad- vantages attending whate\'er may be carried out, insomuch it would reduce the encouragement to speculation. Is it your opinion that any private trader could export goods to India in such a manner as to sustain a competition with the marine officers of the Company ? — I think quite impossible, from my own experience. Is it your judgment, that any such increase is likely to take place in the native demand for British produce or manufactures, as may not be fully met by the existing system ? — 1 think it is in the power of those imme- diately employed in the marine service, to take out a great deal more than they do at the present moment, if they found there would be a likelihood of great profit arising from it. Is any circumstance known to you, which seems to afford a promise of any considerable increase in the native demand for British manufactures ? — I know nothing of the interior of India; I am only giving my evidence as far as these things have affected my own speculations, in my own pur- suits. Are you acquainted with any such circumstance as seems to afford a hope of considerably extending the export trade, in British produce and manu- factures, to India ? — Not at all ; I am not acquainted with any new channel likely to increase the demand. Describe shortly in what manner the marine officers of the Company are trained to the service in which they are engaged ? — By the regulations which existed when I entered the service, I was obliged to perform one or two voyages in the situation of a midshipman or a junior officeF ; one a fourth, one a third, and one a lecond or a chief officer, before I was quali- fied for the command. 4 Y 2 Do 716 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, Do you consider that species of training as necessary to the due discharge .- Esq. of the functions with which the commanders in the marine service of the y v ' Company are invested ? — i think it absolutely necessary, to take charge of so valuable a property, that a man should have great and long experience, together with the advance of age that that period of service I mentioned would bring him to, before he should be invested with the command of an Indiana an. If a free trade were established between every port in the United King- dom and every port in the British dominions in India, what effect would be produced on the marine officers in the service of the East-India Com- pany ? — I do not feel a conviction that it would amount to their total ruin, ♦ but it would be attended with very great hardships. If a ship is freighted homewards from India, must she not be loaded with an assorted cargo of light goods and of goods for ballast ? — If the object in sending the sh p home should be the most valuable produce of the East, I should think it almost impossible that a ship could come to Europe with- out something: to ballast her. 'to Do you conceive rice would be a good article to form the ballast of a shin, homeward bound ? — That it would ballast a ship there cannot be a doubt. . Would it be a profitable concern, to import rice to this country as dead ▼.-eight ? — I should conceive a very destructive one to the proprietor, generally speaking. Do you know of any other article of trade than rice, excepting sugar and saltpetre, that could be used for the purposes of ballast on an home- ward bound voyage ? — There is none at this moment that occurs tome i : at could be laden in the ship in sufficient quantities to ballast her, speak- ing of a ship of 5 or 600 tons. You are doubtless aware that saltpetre is at p-esent out of the question by law ? — No; I believe it is in the power of the Company to allow an individual to purchase it, as an indulgence; I am speaking as matter of opinion. Do you conceive that sugar would be a profitable article of import, if used as dead weight on board an homeward bound vessel from India ? — Speaking EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 717 Speaking from my own experience, what has happened to me within these T. G. Murray, few years, quite the contrary. Esq. Which would you regard as the most profitable, sugar or rice ? — Sugar might, under various circumstances, yield some profit, certainly. What circumstances are those in your experience, which induce you to think sugar would not prove a profitable article of import, under the cir- cumstances supposed?— The period I allude to took place some years ago, ten years ago, when the warehouses of the West India merchants throughout the whole United Kingdomwere quite full of the produce of the colonies. Were the sugars of Bengal allowed a fair competition with West India sugars in the markets of this country, do not you conceive that it would sustain that competition with great hopes of success ? — There cannot be a que.-tion, but, inasmuch as the sugar from India is brought to this coun- try, it will in that degree, have a great effect upon the produce of the West India colonies. Could not the sugar of Bengal be brought to the markets of this coun- try as cheaply as West India sugar, provided the duties on both be equal- ized ? — At the present moment, I believe, the produce of sugar in India is very much confined, but that it is capable of producing as much as the whole continent of Europe would require I cannot doubt, and if it can be brought here as cheaply in point of freight, and the duties are equalized, I have no doubt that it would have a very serious effect upon West India produce. Supposing sugar were brought from India as dead weight, might it not, in that case, profitably enter the markets of this country, supposing it to be placed on an equal footing, in point of duties, with the sugars of the West Indies ? — It would affect it unquestionably, inasmuch as it would increase the quantity of sugar in the market. Would it not come as cheaply as West Indian sugar, coming as dead weight ? — It would depend entirely upon the freight of the ship, what she was freighted at; if it was necessary to bring sugar as dead weight to bal- last the ship, it would most seriously affect the produce of the West Indies, inasmuch as it would greatly increase the quantity of sugar in the market. Assuming that saltpetre is excluded as an article of ballast, in an home- ward "V 715 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, ward bound vessel from India, would you choose in preference rice or Esq. sugar, for that purpose ? — I have already said that rice is a very destruc- * v > tive article to embark in, and that sugar might, on the contrary, afford some profit. Have you in your China voyages, or otherwise, had opportunities of becoming well acquainted with the navigation of the Malay Archipelago ? — I am very little acquainted with the Eastern Islands, never having had the charge of a ship among them. Describe precisely what you mean by the term Eastern Islands? — I mean the great body of islands, both large and small, between Acheen Head and the Pellew Islands. You include under that term, all the islands that constitute the Eastern Archipelago? — All the islands; generally speaking, the Eastern Islands are those to the Eastward of Banca, including Borneo, &c. In a China voyage outwards, by what straits do you enter the Archi- pelago ? — That depends entirely upon seasons and other circumstances ; the general passage in the regular season, and the fleet in force (a strong fleet well protected) is through either the Straits of Sunda or the Straits of Malacca. "What is the way homewards, do you come through the same straits ? — Generally, when a fleet is in force, and in the regular season, through the Straits of Sunda, that is the most direct passage. You have mentioned that they go and return by these routes when the fleet is in force, what difference does that circumstance make as to the course adopted ? — In going through the Straits of Sunda, for instance, you pass immediately in sight of an enemy's possession ; and in going through the Straits of Malacca, it has frequently happened during this war, that the enemy's cruisers have been off Acheen head. Have you ever landed on any of the islands of the eastern Archipelago r — If you admit Sumatra to be considered as one of those islands, I was six weeks at Bencoolen and brought home a cargo from thence, since I was a -commander. I was before that about fourteen days upon the island of Sumbawa. That EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 719 That is to the eastward of Java ? — Yes; going to China, it Forms one T.G.Murray, of the most eastern straits, the Straits of Sapy. Es Had you an opportunity of observing the native inhabitants of those islands? — At Bencoolen, I formed some idea of what their inclinations and habits were ; at the Straits of Sapy, I was under too great a dread to have much communication with them. What were the circumstances which rendered it so fearful a business to have communication with the natives of Sumbawa? — I know no rea- son, but a knowledge of their native treachery, and which appeared to be natural to them. From any knowledge or authentic information which you have acquired, can you say whether that is generally the character of the native popula- tion of the eastern islands? — I believe universally. Do you conceive that any considerable number of cargoes of British or other European produce would find a market among the natives of the eastern islands ? — As far as my own knowledge goes, and what I have heard from the description of people called eastern traders, I apprehend not ; not even one cargo. Are not the wants of the natives very much limited by the nature of the climate under which they live ? — I conceive their wants to be very few, from the very few articles that the regular eastern traders from Calcutta carry among those islands, speaking only from information, for I have no experience, also judging from what I experienced myself while at Bencoolen. Does not the equator cross the heart of some of the principal islands? — I believe near the very spot I have just mentioned, ir crosses Sumatra* somewhere near Fort Marlborough, at Bencoolen ; I speak from re- collection. Does it not cross nearly the centre of the island of Borneo ? — I believe it does j but that is not impressed so strongly upon my mind as the others. During your residence at Bencoolen, did you find that the native inha- bitants in the neighbourhood of the British settlement there, copied in any material degree European habits and manners ?— None whatever came under my observation from actual natives. From Lsq -v- 720 MINUTE3 OP EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, From the treacherous and ferocious character of the natives of those E>q. islands in general, would it not be necessary that vessels, attempting to S v 1 trade with them, should be strongly armed ? — The eastern traders are armed, I believe, in a very peculiar way, to prevent surprise from numbers, as well as treachery from the merchants with whom they deal ; and I have been told, that immediately on any native or natives coming on board, their side-arms and all other weapons of defence are taken from them ; they are also supplied with strong boarding nettings ; and I believe, I do not know, whether it is so now, but it was certainly at some period ne- cessary that their cabins should be barricadoed, so that they might defend themselves, if they were driven to that place, from the number ot natives coming on board, either by surprise or by permission. Supposing a free trade established between the ports of the united king- dom and the eastern seas, do you conceive that the export on a large scale of British manufactures to those seas, would prove a profitable specula- tion ? — As far as my own experience goes, I think not. Do the Malays wear cotton in any degree ? — They wear chiefly cotton, but they have a manufacture of their own of silk and cotton, they wear no other apparel that ever 1 observed. Was that the case generally among the Malays ? — Generally, wherever I have been. Do they wear any other articles of apparel than are supplied by their own manufactures ? — -I do not recollect observing any thing but their own manufactures ; I cannot enumerate exactly what they are now, I have not them in my recollection. Do you know whether any trade is carried on between China and the islands of the Archipelago r — I believe a very extensive trade in Chinese ves-els, but to what places and what islands, I am quite ur.able to say ; chiefly to Java, I believe. Can you state of what articles in general the return cargo consists ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with the China market, to answer that question. Do you know whether the Eastern Islands furnish any descriptions of produce which are likely to suit the consumption of Europe ? — Spices are produced certainly ; and I believe Java produces both sugar and indigo, but EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 721 but I am not at all aware what the produce of any of the other islands, T. G- Murray, except Luconia (Manilla) which produce the same. Esq. I ^ i On a supposition that a free trade were established between the ports of the United Kingdom and the Eastern Seas in general, except with the reservation of the China trade to the Company, is it your judgment that the vessels of private British traders could procure illicit shipments of tea on the coasts of the Eastern Islands? — I have not a doubt t'uar there would be great facility in their procuring tea, and I would beg leave to state why ; the great reason, I believe, that there are not more ships and more people embarked in the China trade, either from the coast of Mala- bar or Calcutta, is the difficulty of return, and that their ships frequently come back half laden ; I dare say, therefore, they would be very glad to take on board a cargo of tea, and carry it any where that may be pointed out, if it were only as a remittance from China. Do you mean to imply, that country ships trading to Canton, might be tempted on their return homewards, to take in teas on the coasts of the Eastern Islands ? — No ; I mean that they would bring cargoes of teas from China, as a remittance for whatever they might have carried there, and deliver them at any place that might be agreed upon, purely as a re- mittance. Does not the Chinese government gain a considerable revenue from the export of teas ? — I cannot speak from positive knowledge, but I always understood so. Must it not be the wish of the Chinese government, that teas of all descriptions should be exported from the port of Canton ? — I have always understood that a Chinaman, to get rid of his teas, would trade with any one, and give him almost unlimited credit. Are there not teas of a very inferior, and even noxious description, to be purchased at Canton ? — I cannot answer that question ; teas are fre- quently adulterated ; but it does not come immediately under my own knowledge. Supposing an arrangement made, by which teas imported from China into some of the Eastern Islands, could be there taken in by private British vessels, can you state whether it would be easy to procure such teas from China by means of Chinese junks or other native vessels ? — I cannot take upon myself to answer that question ; I have already said 4 Z that 7^2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, that there is a very extensive intercourse from China, through junks, with Esq. the island of Java, and I believe with those junks and Malay boats, with *• ' islands in the west ; and the China junks go also to the other islands in the Archipelago. Is it known to you that the Chinese junks import into Java, teas and other products of China for the use of the Chinese colonists of that is- land ? — I am not at all acquainted with that particular. Supposing an open trade established, such as has been before described, would it not be easy for the captains of vessels to procure, by a previous arrangement, any quantity of tea, without going to the port of Canton ? — I should conceive so, for the reasons I have already given, independent of the Chinese junks. Is not the course of Chinese junks coming to Java, through the Straits of Banca ? — I should rather think through the straits to the east- ward of the island of Gaspar, or the Straits of Gaspar. Must not vessels coming from the coast of China to Java pass some- where near the islands of Borneo and Sumatra ? — Borneo, lying to the northward of Java, they must of course pass it ; but I cannot charge my memory particularly. Would it not be a much shorter voyage for the Chinese junks to ccme to the north-west coast of Borneo, than to come to Java ?— Inasmuch as Borneo lies much nearer to Canton, of course, it would be shorter. Can vessels sail from the coast of China to Manilla in both monsoons ? — I am not sufficiently acquainted with those seas, to answer that question. Supposing an arrangement made, by which European vessels would' take in teas on the coast of the Eastern Islands, could iiojt temporary depots, for that purpose, be very easily established on ilnse coasts ? — The only objection to that would be the treachery of ti Malays, and the likelihood of being cut off by them; there is no other objection, I conceive. Would the treachery of the natives be an insurmountable obstacle to the sort of clandestine trade of which you have before spoken ? — Certainly not : EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 723 not; if it was an object worthy of attention, I he factory or establishment T. G.ftfurrcty, to be formed, could be strong enough to resist the Malays. Esq. Are there not several inconsiderable islands, of which the inhabitants are much more peaceable than those of Celebes or Borneo? — There are some islands or some places on the islands, where there is more confidence put in the Malays than there can be in others; they are not so suspiciously treated in some of the islands as they are in others. Would it be practicable for the British government to establish any such fiscal guards on the coasts of those islands, as should prevent the illicit practices of which you have before spoken ? — They must be very exten- sive, and very numerous ; and, in the time of war, I should conceive it would be very much subjected to the depredations of the enemy's cruisers. Supposing a regulation made, that ships taking in cargoes any where in the Indian seas, should, on their passage homeward, touch at some in- termediate port, and have their cargoes officially broken up and inspected, could such a regulation be carried into effect without immense incon- venience to commerce ? — I think it would be excessively prejudicial, and very destructive to a China cargo ; for it is invariably found, that a chest of tea, as it is at present constructed, would hardly bear moving after it is stowed. Must it not, in general, be an inconvenience to inspect cargoes in that manner, after they are completed ? — A very great inconvenience, I imagine. Supposing a regulation made that ships, under the circumstances before described, should touch at some intermediate port, and that the master or commander should declare the contents of their cargoes, but without having them actually inspected ; is it your opinion that such a regulation as that could afford any material security against a contraband trade ? — If the temptations are great to carry on a contraband trade, and it can be done with a degree of facility, I should conceive it no more obstruction than a man to give his word that he would not do it. Do you not conceive that the present high duties on tea imported into this country must operate as a very strong temptation on persons in the circumstances before described, to engage in an illicit importation of that article ? — I should think that, considering the weighty penalties attached 4 Z 2 to 724 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. (-'• Murray, to detection from the Exchequer, the only inducement they can have to Esq. smuggle, is to evade the heavy duties. Do you know whether the coasts of the eastern islands do not abound with bays and creeks accessible to ships of burthen ? — I am not very well acquainted with the eastern seas ; I can only speak from what I have un- derstood to be the case ; some bays I have seen at a distance appeared, not only accessible, but very commodious for ships of all descriptions. Would it be possible or expedient to station British cruisers in the Straits of Malacca, Sunda, or Allass, with orders to board vessels coming homewards and suspected of being laden with contraband ? — It is very possible, certainly, to station them ; but I think the great dangers arising from remaining there, would prevent their being there perpetually. Supposing a vessel to take in a lading any where in the China or Soloo seas, are there not many practicable outlets from those seas into the At- lantic and Pacific oceans ? — There are innumerable outlets; but whether there is a safe passage, I am not at all acquainted. It is your understandingthat there are innumerable outlets ? — I know nothing more than what 1 have seen upon the chart. (Examined by the Committee.) Is it usual for the country ships to trade in teas ? — I believe not, but I have known both the settlement of Fort St. George, and Calcutta, plentifully supplied with tea through the means of the country ships. Do they bring any teas to those places, except for the consumption of the Presidencies and the subordinates ? — I have bought teas of a certain description myself in Calcutta, which I conceive to be cheaper than they were purchased in China. For what purpose did you purchase those teas ? — When I speak of teas, I mean three or four chests for my own immediate use. Not as an article of trade ? — It is prohibited as an article of trade. What quantity of teas do you think you should be able to purchase in EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 725 in Calcutta, at any one time? — If I am not mistaken, I believe there T.G. Murrajj, are one or two regular ships return with teas both to Madias and Cal- Esq. cutta; but as those may be intended to supply the Presidencies, I do v- v ' not mean to say I could buy all those teas cheaper there than in China. Is it within your knowledge, that the owicrs and commanders of country ships which frequent Canton, are under covenants with the government of India, by which they are bound in a penalty of double the value of the ship and cargo, to conform to all orders and regulations of the Company's supracargoes at Canton ? — I am quite unacquainted with such regulations. Supposing such regulations to be made as well in India as in China, that country ships should not trade in teas, are you not of opinion that such regulations would have the desired effect ? — I should con- ceive the captains and officers would, like all other men, be bound to conform to the orders of their employers ; but being prevented by the government, it would naturally depend upon the penalty attaching to it- Are you of opinion, that any quantity of teas could be taken on board in China by a country ship, without the knowledge of the su- pracargoes. under proper regulations to prevent their" being shipped? ■ — Speaking from the knowledge I have of the Chinese, I conceive them to be more inclined to smuggling than any other set ot men ; but how far it can be done without the knowledge of the supracargoes, I am quite unequal to answering. Are you of opinion, that teas could be landed from country ships at any port, either upon the coast of Coromandel or Malabar, and re- shipped on private ships bound to this country, without its coming to the knowledge of the government of India ? — I presume, that in the event of peace, the situations on the coast o Coromandel, belonging to both the Dutch, French and Danes, would be returned to them ; and in that case, I think it possible that there might be trans-shipments made in those roads without their coming to the knowledge of the English government ; yet the possibility of information being given to the English government must be very great. Are *2S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, Ave you of opinion, that there would be any inducement for the Esq. owner or commander of a country ship to embark in such a traffic, l_ v > under the heavy penalty of a forfeiture of double the value of the ship and cargo for so doing ? — I should conceive not ; my idea went only to the possibility of the thing, but not to the likelihood of it. Upon the supposition of the trade to India being laid open to the merchants of this country, under a prohibition to import teas in the vessels sent to India, and subjecting, in the ever.t of tea being found on board the said vessels, the cargo to confiscation, in your judgment, would not the merchants in this country, engaging in such trade, be particularly cautious to select for tne command of such ship, a person on whose honour and vigilanre they could perfectly depend that no tea should be taken on board? — Most Undoubtedly; I should con- ceive they would be led to do so from the great risk attending the undertaking. o Do you suppose that any large quantity of tea could be taken on board, and conveyed to this country, without the knowledge of the captain ? — It depends entirely upon what description of man the cap- tain may be, and how far people may be intrusted who are inclined to take it on board ; that there are a great many things taken on board ships, in large quantities, which the captain knows nothing of, I am perfectly convinced. If the trade of India were confined as at present, and the subjects and states at amity with His Majesty permitted to trade there, might not the merchants of those foreign states find profitable car- goes of sugar in India for the supply of Europe ? — I think that, at all times, sugar enough might be made in India to supply all demand for any foreign markets. Have the East India Company's ships brought considerable quan- tities of sugar tor the supply of Europe r — At one period, within my recollection, the East India Company were induced to try the effect that it would have on the markets ; I am speaking only from infor- mation as to the motives ; and i believe they have sent out six or seven regular Indiamen, for the purpose of bringing home such quantity of sugar as it was safe to lade in those ships. At EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 727 At what period was that ?— About 1793, 1791, or 1795, I was an T.G. Murray, officer in one of the ships. "1- l ^ ' Do you happen to know whether that adventure proved profitable to the Company ? — 1 am quite unacquainted with that ; I believe that a similar attempt lias not been made since. If the East India Company did not find it a profitable adventure to bring sugar from India, for the supply of Europe, do you suppose that the British merchant will find it advantageous to bring that sugar from India ?— I have no idea that ti;e private merchant will find it a pro- fitable concern. You conceive the importation of rice would be destructive, as to pro- fit r— Yes. Would not that circumstance depend upon the price of rice in India and in England ? — I should conceive, that hardly any thing but a most lamentable famine in India can affect the price of rice very greatly ; but it must be a continued series of distress in this country that would make rice, in my opinion, a profitable concern. Do you happen to know the price of rice in India by the last accounts ? — No, I am not acquainted with it. Have you not known periods when rice would have been a very profit- able speculation to be brought from India to this country, and that ships have gone from this country on purpose ? — I believe the only period that rice has proved to be a very profitable concern, is, in one or two instances in the present year, or the latter end of the last; that siiips some time ago were sent for rice, I am very well aware, but the consequence was not destructive to the merchant, but I believe very serious to the government, because they undertook to pay a certain sum, and the rice did not yield one half. Have you ever imported piece-goods from India? — Yes, I lament to say, in very large qua ities. Have they been a very unprofitable undertaking ? — It may not be inte- resting to the Committee to know how 1 was affected, it is only ne- cessary to say I was affected in a most destructive way ; at one time in the 728 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, the year 1801 there appeared to be a likelihood of a great profit arising Eiq. from piece-goods in this country ; in 1802 I was in India, at which time 1 ^ > the information of the cessation of hostilities came out to us ; I was induced to embark to the extent of about ,£60,000. in piece-goods alone, about ,£40,000 of which was sent to me through the medium of a coun- try ship ; 1 think the last of that quantity of piece-goods I have sold within these four years, making a period of seven years, during which part of them were kept in the Company's warehouse, by which I calculate 1 lost about ,£25,000. Are you acquainted with the present or late prices of piece-goods in Bengal, and the prices which have been procured at the East In- dia Company's sales ? — I understand there has been a profit arising from piece-goods within this year or two ; but the piece-goods vary so much in price, both from the demand in this country, and the quantity exported from India, I cannot answer that question in any way satisfactorily. Can you state that there does profit arise from the late purchases in Bengal,and the late sales in this country? — I cannot state it from my own experience, only what I have heard ; and I believe that chiefly arises from what happened at the period i allude to, and there being so few persons embarked in it. Are you acquainted with the prices procured at the last sales of the East-India Company ? — Not at all; I have heard the thing mentioned, but only in the way, that there was some profit arising from it, nor do I know what prices would yield a profit. Have the goodness to state, whether the captains of Indiamen receive any salary or pay from the East-India Company; and if so, what is the amount of it ? — The captains of Indiamen receive no direct pay from the Company ; they are merely allowed a part of the chartered tonnage of the ship freight free ; they have no payment whatever. Is this allowance of tonnage considered as a compensation for the non- payment of salary? — I consider it to be an allowance to them for their services, and as binding them to their interests, in making them consider themselves immediately under their employ. Notwithstanding this grant of tonnage to the captains, are they not liable to some payment on getting the command of their respective ships r — There EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 729 There is no payment to the Company on getting the command, that I T. G. Murray, am aware of. ksq. v u / Is there not a sum of „T50O paid hy the captain ? —Yes ; that is de- ducted from whatever monies they have in the India House after the voyage. Is this sum considered as a payment made to the East India Company for duties, or how otherwise ? — It lias never struck me as paid to them for duties, but as a charge attached to the situation of a commander. Does every commander pay it ? — Every regular commander ; I believe the commander of what is called the extra ship does not pay it. How many of the captains of regular ships, upon an average, pay this sum in the course of a season? — I do not feel myself equal to answering that question, be ause I do not know the whole number of ships ; but certainly all the regular ships. Is this the on'y sum that is paid on the return of a ship from her In- dian voyage by the captain ? — J am not aware of any other, from my re* collection at this moment. Do not the captains pay on the return of the China ships ? — I am not aware of any sum. Is there no sum paid, as duties, upon the teas ? — I never commanded a China ship ; but there are regular duties paid on teas; J never had a China privilege but one, and that was a very long time ago, and what the charges upon it were I do not recollect. You have stated that X500 is regularly taken from all the captains of the regular ships upon their return to this country ; may not this sum be considered in the light of an equivalent for freight upon the tonnage granted to the captains? — That sum has been levied upon the captains (if 1 may use the expression) I believe, only within these sixteen or seven- teen years ; but I am not aware that their privilege has been increased since that time. Whatever the privilege is, this may be considered as an equivalent for freight upon that tonnage ? — i am not aware that it is so, because the 5 A sum 730 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE T. G. Murray, sum has been levied only within these seventeen years, and the privilege Esq. has not at all increased from what it was prior to that time. Would you not consider it as a charge on your commercial speculation in estimating the amount of the profit of the whole voyage ? — In esti- mating my profit on the voyage, I certainly should not conceive I could do so to be correct, till I had deducted the „£500 from it. The other duties payable on the return of a ship from a China voyage, whatever they may be, would necessarily be considered in the same light ? — Every deduction of whatever nature, from the net proceeds, of course, must be considered in the same light. Have you ever heard what the amount of those duties now alluded to is ? — No, I have not. Can you inform the Committee what may be the amount per cent, of the advantage which a Company's officer would have from paying no freight, no commission, and a diminished rate of insurance over a pri- vate trader, who exported the same investments ? — During three or four of my voyages to India, I always sold my privilege, till within the last voyage, at j£lb or XlQ a ton. What might that amount to? — There is about 40 tons ; at the period I have spoken of, some time ago, when a large consignment in piece goods came to me, the insurance upon my own ship was about five or six guineas percent. ; and I think the insurance done upon ship or ships at Lloyd's Coffee House, was twenty guineas per cent, with deductions for convoy, and so forth, making the difference, if the ship could be named at any time that the articles were in, of from five or six guineas to eight guineas per cent. Can you calculate what, upon the whole, the advantage might be, that the Company's officers have over private traders ? — Very considerable, certainly ; 1 cannot answer it more minutely. Are you acquainted with the produce of the Island of Banca ? — I have passed Baiua. Have you any information of the nature of the produce of the T sland of Banca ; does it produce tin ? — I believe it produces tin ; and that the chief part of the tin carried to China, either from the place itself, or from "Malacca? or Penang, I believe, is produced in Banca. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7?>\ JDa you know the relative value of the tin carried from Banca to China, T. G. M urun, with tin that might be exported from this country? — I recollect once ask Esq. ing a Chinaman the question, which was the most preferable; and he ' v ' told me that the Banca tin, certainly ; but as to the relative value of them, I cannot speak. You sold your privilege for £2b a ton ? — Yes ; thereabouts. Do you mean your whole privilege out and home ? — No, not home ; the purport of the question meant to be asked, I conceive to be the ad- vantage the captain has over a private trader, filling his privilege himself; I have always let the produce of whatever my investment might be, to- gether with other funds I had, upon respondentia in India, and received also a payment of j£25 a ton upon my tonnage, considering the specu- lation from India to this country a very precarious thing, and in all pro- bability destructive. Do you not distinctly know, that the X500 paid by the commanders of the Company's regular ships, has no connection whatever either with duties or with freight, on their privilege, but that it constitutes a fund to repay the Company for a sum of money which they gave to do away the system of private contract for open competition ? — 1 do not exactly know that ; but it took place exactly at the period that the old system of ship^ ping was destroyed, and that ships were agreed for by open competition. You know distinctly that it has nothing to do either with duties or freight ? — I conceive not. [The Witness withdrew. JAMES HORSBURGH, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. I mppy.'] You are hydrographer to the East India Company? — J, JJorsburgb % lam. Esqi 1 n ' Were you a free mariner in India under a licence from the East India Company ? — Yes, I was. For how many years ? — I was about twenty years in India. In that capacity, did you command a Company's ship trading in the Indian and Chinese seas ? — A country ship. 5 A 2 It 7S2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE /. fforsburgh, It was not a Company's ship? — No; she did not belong to the East Esq. India Company. Are you, from your own experience, well acquainted with the Indian seas, and with the Indian trade ; by that trade, meaning the country trade? — I never traded on my own account, and am not well acquainted in respect to trade ; the navigation of those seas I am well acquaintd with. From your observation, when you wre in India, do you think the markets there were over or undersiockedwith European commodities r — I believe frequently overstocked. Can you state any new articles of European produce or manufactures that came into demandamong the natives of India during the time you were there ? — I cannot. Supposing a free trade were opened between the ports of this country and the ports within the East India Company's Charter, do -you, from your knowledge of India, think there would be any increase of demand for European produce among the natives there ? — I really cannot tell. What is your opinion ; have you any reason to think there will be ?— I think there must be a great sacrifice from this country, in the first in- stance. Have you any reason to think, there would be any increase of demand among the natives, for either British manufactures or produce ? — I really cannot answer the question properly. Are you acquainted with the eastern seas and islands ? — Yes, I am. Do you believe that those seas and islands, and the ports of them, have been thoroughly explored by the merchants who now carry on the trade between India and the Chinese seas ? — Yv.s, they have. State who are the persons by whom that trade is carried on, the trade which is called the country trade ; is it not carried on by persons called free merchants and mariners, and who reside in India ? — Yes, it is. Has it come within your knowledge, that those free merchants and mariners have explored every port in those seas, for the purpose oi com- merce ? — Yes, it has. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. Can you state what articles of British produce or manufactures arc J. Horsburgk, consumed in those islands ? — I cannot say correctly ; very little L Esq. believe. > v * State what the articles are, as far as you know them ? — A few articles of cutlery, probably a little iron and fire arms, and gunpowder, arc ti principal articles. What is the assortment of cargoes sent from India to those islands? — Opium is the great staple article ; some iron, saltpetre, and sulphur sometimes, and piece-goods, cotton stuffs of various colours. In ybui' opinion, could even a single ship be freighted from Europe for those islands, with any reasonable prospect of commercial profit? — I think a single ship could not sell her cargo among those islands, with out going to Batavia, or to Prince of Wales's Island. Do you think it possible to dispose, even of the cargoes of tv..» European ships of 350 tons, in a season, among those islands? — No; I do not. Is not the climate of those islands extremely hot? — The equator passes over the middle of the Archipelago. What is the dress of the natives? — Very little, if any thing at all; without it is the Rajahs and chiefs; they wear pelisses of different kinds; but the lower class of people wear very little dress ; a small wrapper of cotton about them, and a bit of silk handkerchief for a turban. Is their dress supplied from their own manufacture chiefly ? —In great part. Do you conceive it is possible to dispose of English woollens to any amount among them ?— No; I think not. Can you state to the Committee what is the character of those natives, with respect to the ferocity or mildness of their dispositions ? — They are very cruel and treacherous, and would take any man's life for the sake of a dollar or two, at any time when there wasan oppor unity. Are the Rajahs, who are the chieftains of those islands, vr-rv jealous and suspicious of Europeans ? — Yes, of Europeans trading with them. Have 734 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Ilorsburgh, Have many instances come to your knowledge of ships that have been Esq. cut off and destroyed among those islands? — A great number; I have — — v~ ' got a list of nearly thirty in my pocket of the ships I have known cut off at different times. Do you know that captains also have been assassinated by the natives of those islands ? — A great number. Are there any return cargoes that could be got among those islands for Europe? — I conceive little or nothing that would answer in the European market. Is the committee to collect from what you have said, that it is your opinion that the trade to the eastern islands could never be an object of fair commercial profit to a British merchant ? — I think not, until the disposition of the natives is changed. Supposing ships to go from this country with a view to profit by illicit traffic, is it your opinion, that if they were permitted to go into the eastern seas, they could procure teas there for the purpose of smug- gling: — 1 think not for some time. Do you think that if they had a view 1o that purpose, they might in some time enter into such arrangements that they could procure teas ? — Yes, I think so. Do not many large junks come among the eastern islands, from the port of Amoy, in the southern part of China? — They go from Canton and from Amoy, to different ports of the eastern islands. The English have no intercourse or connection with the port of Amoy, have they: — Not at present. Do not many junks go from China to Borneo? — To Borneo, and to Sooloo, to Mindano ; 1 believe also to Timor; particularly to Batavia, and to Bhio and Lingin, and to Prince of Wales's Island. Could not those junks, in your opinion, bring any quantities of tea to the eastern islands ? — They carry a good deal of tea to Batavia at present, and to some ports of the eastern islands. Could EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 735. Could they not procure them and carry them in any quantities that J. llursburgli, might be demanded ? — Certainly. E S M- Are you of opinion that, by previous arrangement, depots of tea might be established through those junks among the eastern islands, for the purpose of smuggling ? — 1 think so. Do you think such smuggling of tea might be carried on by means of Portuguese or Spanish vessels, by previous arrangements ? — 1 think they could. Supposing the private merchants of this country were permitted to go to Manilla, do you think there is any more convenient port for pro- curing teas from China, and smuggling them into this country, than the port of Manilla ? — I think not. Is not Manilla so situated that a regular communication may be kept up between that and China, at almost any period of the year? — At all times. You are of opinion then, that Manilla is peculiarly well situated for smuggling teas from China? — Remarkably so. Do you know whether the Company's supracargoes are not exposed to very great difficulties and dangers, sometimes, from the irregularities even of the seamen of the Company's regular ships ? — I think they have been so formerly. Are not the country ships which sailed to China, under the strictest regulation with respcrt to their conduct in China, and under the controul of the supracargoes ? — Yes, they are. If the Chinese trade were thrown open to the private merchants of this country, is it not your opinion that the Company's supracargoes would be put to the utmost difficulties by the irregularities and promis- cuous influx of seamen, that would then go to the port of Canton? — I think so, unless there was some other method to regulate their conduct. Are you acquainted with the produce of the island of Banca ? — Yes. Do you know that the island of Banca produces tin of a very fine quality, and in very great qiantitie^ ? — I understand it does not produce o much now as it did rormtrly. Do 736 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE J. Horsburgh, Do you mean that so much is not exported from it, or that there is any Esq. defect in the produce of the country ?— There is not so much procured, I * Y * understand. Have you understood that tin is extremely easily procured in that country, and very easily smelted ? — Yes ; I understand so, it is near the surface of the ground what they procure, in small pits j it is of a very soft quality, easily smelted. Have you understood, that during the time that the Dutch power pre- vailed in that part of India, the Chinese were in a very considerable degree supplied with tin by the Dutch from the island of Banca ? — Yes ; I believe they were. Have you any doubt that the Chinese might still be supplied with the same article from that island at a much cheaper rate than they can from England ? — I really do not know the relative difference of prices. You do not know the comparative prices of tin from Banca and from England ? — I do not. Do you know whether iron is a produce of one of those Eastern Islands? — I have heard that they have iron in some of the islands. Do they not manufacture their cresses, which ate offensive weapons, and other iron utensils and arms from their own iron ? — They temper their own cresses themselves, and manufacture them ; whether all from their own iron, I cannot say. You know, from having seen those instruments, that they are their own manufacture ? — Certainly. In freighting a ship from India to Europe, it must be loaded with an assorted cargo ot light goods, and of dead weight of ballast, must it not? — No ; I do not know that ; I have come home three times irom India, sometimes without light goods at all, sometimes with rice ; bhips can load with rice, without light goods. Supposing the ship to be loaded with an assorted cargo of light goods and dead weight, what are the articles you must take from India to Eu- rope for that dead weight ? — I imagine sugar, or saltpetre, or rice. As EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 737 As the law at present stands, saltpetre can only be imported by the /• Barxhurgh, Company, or by their licence, into this country ? — I have understood so. Esq. Can you state whether, generally speaking, rice would be a profitable article to bring from India to this country ? — I should think not profitable. Supposing it were necessary to take in as ballast, either rice or sugar, which do you think would be the more profitable article to bring to this country by way of ballast ? — I really do not know. Do you know whether Bengal is capable of producing sugar to almost any amount ? — I believe it is. {Examined by the Committee.) Are the country ships employed in the trade between India and China, in the habit of bringing teas to India, except for the consumption of the Company's settlements ? — I believe not. What quantity of tea do you think each ship usually brings from China to Bombay ?— I imagine from one hundred to two hundred chests. Do not the owners and commanders of the country ships employed in the trade with China enter into covenants with the government under a penalty of double the value of the ship and cargo, to obey all the orders and regulations of their supracargoes at Canton, among other provisions in these covenants ? — I have understood so ; I never saw the covenant. Do not you recollect having signed such covenants as commander, upon a ship's being registered in Bombay ? — I think I remember signing a covenant ; but I do not recollect the tenor of it, or what was the penalty. ment Were the trade in teas in country ships to be forbidden by the govern - ...ent in India and the supracargoes at Canton, or the supply to the different settlements to be confined to one ship selected for that purpose, do not you think such a regulation would be effectual to prevent teas being brought from China in country ships for the purpose of being sold to private ships going from this country ? — I really cannot say. Could any quantity of teas be shipped on board the country ships in China without its being reported to the supracargoes, provided they were to express their desire to that effect to the Chinese ? — I think some of the 5 B small 738 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE /. Horsburgh, small Chinese merchants would still send teas on board ships, if they could Esq. get any advantage by it. V Considering the heavy penalty of double the value of the ship and cargo against such a trade, do you think it would be an object to any owner or commander of any ship to engage in it ? — I think not. Do you think that any quantity of teas might be landed at any of the ports, either on the coast of Coromandel or Malabar, from country ships, and re-shipped on board private ships bound to this country, without such an operation coming to the knowledge of some of the Company's servants on those coasts, and being reported to government ? — I think not, if the Company's servants were active. "What, in your opinion, would be the effect upon the price of teas in China, if fifty or sixty competitors were to go into the market ? — I think it would raise the price of teas in China. What effect would be likely to be produced upon the quality of teas? — The qualities would probably be inferior. Have you had an opportunity of observing the gradual rise in the price of exports from China to India, such as sugar, raw-silk, tutenague, and other articles ? — I understand the price has risen of late years. Have you heard that the articles of sugar and sugarcandy are now con- siderably higher than they were ten or fifteen years ago? — I really do not know the present price. Have you observed the rise in the common articles of supplies to the ships in China provisions ? — Yes. Do you suppose this has arisen from any want of the usual supplies being afforded to the port of Canton, or from the competition arising from the number of ships that have gone there ? — I cannot say from what cause. Have you heard of any rise of consequence having taken place in the price of teas for a long period of years past ? — I have not. [The Witness withdrew. Sir EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 73p Sir GEORGE THOMAS STAUNTON, Bart, was called in, and examined as follows : Mr, Impey.} You are a supracargo in the East-India Company's service ? Sir GeS. Thos. —Yes, lam. Staunton, 8;irr. < y ' How long have you been in that situation ? — I have been fifteen yean in the service of the East-India Company. You accompanied Lord Macartney's embassy to Pekin ? — Yes, I did. You are also acquainted with the language of the Chinese ? — I have made the Chinese language my study. From being acquainted with the language of the Chinese, and from the time you have been in that country, have you had peculiar opportunities of becoming acquainted with the character, the opinions, and the habits of the Chinese ? — I should conceive a knowledge of the language would possibly give me some advantage over other Europeans in those respects. Have you also, from the situation you held in the Company's service, obtained a competent knowledge of the Chinese trade ? — I consider my situation as giving me an opportunity of having a general knowledge of the commerce of China. From your knowledge of China, can you state to the Committee, whether they are not peculiarly jealous and suspicious of strangers of all descriptions ? — I should consider that the Chinese are peculiarly jealous and suspicious of strangers. Can you state to the Committee any principle of government or sub- ordination entertained generally by the Chinese nation, that renders them peculiarly adverse to casual and unconnected trading adventurers? — The principle of responsibility that is exacted in China from every person in office, and the controul which is required to be exercised by them, would certainly lead them to be peculiarly adverse to any trade that was not under an efficient controul. Do you conceive that that principle has been one great cause, why in former times the Chinese have been adverse to commerce with foreigners ? — I should conceive that has been the principal, or one of the principal 5 B 2 causes 740 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir Geo. 7'kos. causes of their unfavourable opinion of strangers, and their unwillingness to Staunton, Bart, enter into commercial connections with them. «■ * V Can you state to the Committee, from your knowledge of the history of the trade of China, what have been the impediments thrown in the way of foreign trade in that country, in former times, in consequence of that principle ? — The trade has been confined to one port of the Chinese empire, and is limited to a certain number of native Chinese, called Hong merchants; the Europeans are allowed to reside at that port only while their ships remain there, and various other restrictions were imposed to prevent any ill consequences arising from the trade with foreigners. AVas not the residence of foreigners confined to a small district in the suburbs of Canton ? — It was. Were not all foreign ships disarmed upon their arrival, and their arms restored at their departure ? — There was an order to that effect, and I have understood it has been put in force on some occasions. Was not all intercourse between foreigners and the Chinese strictly pro- hibited, with the exception of those Hong merchants, and a few other persons appointed for the purposes of that intercourse ? — It was so.. State to the Committee, whether in point of fact, those severe laws arfr not at this time modified in practice ? — There has been in practice a con- siderable relaxation of those laws in favour of strangers. Do you conceive that one of the principal causes, or the principal cause of the relaxation of those laws, has been the mode of carrying on the China trade by the East-India Company? — I should certainly consider, that the system according to which the trade is at present carried on, is one of the principal causes of that improvement. There may be, no doubt, some collateral causes, which have contributed to the same effect. Do you not know that the jealousies of the Chinese have been so far subdued, that they have even made advances at Canton to a direct and confidential intercourse with the servants of the East-India Company ?— There have been such advances in one instance, within my recollection. Are you of opinion, that notwithstanding the lessening of the jealousy of the Chinese above stated, very slight causes may probably bring our trade with China into great danger? — Our trade with China is certainly still EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 741 still upon a precarious footing, and is liable to be disturbed by provo- Sir Ceo. Tfios. cations which might be considered of a slight nature. Staunton, Hart. Do you know that the English have been lately excluded from the port of Chusan ? — I have understood that the English were formerly admitted to the port of Chusan, which they are not at present. Dj you know whether it was from any considerable provocation on the part of the English, that they were excluded from the la^t mentioned port ? —I am. not acquainted with the causes of the exclusion of the English from the port ot Chusan, but I have not understood that there was any ade- quate provocation. From your knowledge of the Chinese, do you think thev consider their commerce with the East-India Company as of any considerable conse- quence to the prosperity of their empire ? — The Chinese government have always declared, that they do not consider it of any consequence to the prosperity of the Chinese empire. In your opinion, have not the measures and conduct of the Company's servants at Canton even gained them the respect and confidence of the Chinese? — The Chinese certainly testify much greater respect and esteem for them than for other foreigners, or for any foreigners when the trade was first opened with that country. Do not you think that the unimpeachable good faith of the Company has greatly contributed to that effect ? — I should consider that it cer- tainly has. Has not the beneficial effect of the Company's good character in China extended not only to their own officers and other adventurers from British India, but also to foreigners, and particularly to the Americans ? — I think it has, in some respects. From your knowledge of the Chinese, do you think that the character of the Americans stands equally hi^h with that of the Company, among the Chinese, for honour and probity ?— I should think, by no means so. Are you of opinion that the power of the Company contribute', as well as their probitv, to the high character they hold among the Chinese ?— It certainly contributes to the respect and to the consideration they receive from the Chinese. From 742 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir Geo. Titos, From your knowledge of the Chinese trade, do you think it is capable of Staunton, Bart, great improvement and extension upon the present system ? — I should conceive it is capable of a gradual extension, and that beyond any limits which can be at present assigned. Supposing the present system were to be broken, and the traders of this country, honest and dishonest, experienced and inexperienced, were al- lowed a participation in the China trade, what, in your opinion, would be the probable consequence ? — I should think it extremely probable that disputes would arise, and that additional restrictions would be laid upon the trade ; that it might, in consequence of such disputes be suspended, and perhaps altogether abandoned, in consequence of the treatment that might be experienced from the Chinese, and the new regulations that might be imposed for the controul of the trade. Do you think it probable, that in the event last mentioned, the trade being thrown open, such impediments would be thrown by the Chinese in the way of it, as would tend greatly to diminish, if not entirely to de* stroy it? — I conceive that the trade would be rendered much less advan- tageous than it is at present ; but whether it would become necessary alto- gether to abandon it, would depend upon circumstances which it is not possible to foresee. Supposing the East India Company's power to be destroyed, what would be the state of British subjects in China, without the protection they now receive from it ? — I should conceive they would be liable to considerable embarrassments and vexations in the conduct of their trade, and in a much greater degree than they are at present. Supposing that a King's Consul were established at Canton, is it your opinion that he could exercise the same authority that the Company now does in the protection of British subjects ? — I should conceive not ; as the power and influence of the Company's servants is chiefly derived from their having the direction and management of the trade. Is it your opinion upon the whole, that it is of the utmost imoortance, if not of absolute necessity, to the preservation and improvement of our trade with China, that the present system should be continued? — I should think it is certainly highly important to the preservation and improvement of the trade, that the present system should be continued. Is it from political causes only, or from commercial causes also* that you EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 743 you think it would be inexpedient to throw the China trade open ? — I Sir Geo. Thos. should conceive there are likewise some commercial causes that would Staunton, Bart. prevent the trade being carried on so advantageously on any other system * y ■ ■ * as the present. In your opinion, have the Americans, and other foreign traders who have been to China, been able to enter into competition, in any degree, with the East India Company in the Chinese market ? — They do in some articles of trade to a certain extent. Are those, with respect to the commerce in general, superior or inferior articles? — They have entered into competition in respect to some species of teas, and also in some of the inferior articles. "When you speak of their having entered into competition with the Company, in some species of teas, are those superior or inferior species- of teas i — I can hardly distinguish them by the term superior or inferior ; they are peculiar species of teas. What are they? — Some kinds of green teas chiefly. Do you consider the uniform price of teas as one of the consequences of the present system? — I should certainly impute it in. a great measure., or entirely, to the present system. State to the Committee in what manner you suppose that effect to be produced by the present system ? — I conceive, that as the Company bid singly in the market of China for the produce of that country, they must, necessarily obtain it cheaper, and at more uniform prices, than if a great, number of individuals entered into competition with each other. In point of fact, the monopoly of teas in China is in the Hong mer- chants, is it not ? — i consider it so. According to the present system, do you consider that the East India Company, notwithstanding the monopoly of tea in the Hong merchants,, is enabh d in a very great degree, to regulate the price of it ? — They have, generally the refusal of all teas, and other principal articles brought to. market for foreign consumption ; and in respect to those articles in the purchase of which they have not to meet with any competition, they are certainly enauled, in a great measure, to regulate the price. Are. li-i MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Sir (tCO. T/ws. Are you of opinion that a free market with China would have the effect Sftfttiftoil, Bart, of raising the price of tea in that country ? — I should conceive it would *• v ' necessarily do so. Do you think that the Americans, or other foreign traders who have traded to China, have traded with equal or greater advantage than the East India Company ? — I am not able to speak to the advantages which individuals have derived from their trade, but I should conceive that the credit and reputation of the Company in China does give them, gene* rally speaking, considerable advantage in carrying on their trade in that country. Are you of opinion, that the advantages which have been derived to this country from the sale of British manufactures and produce in China, has been entirely owing to the present system ? — I should conceive that the present extent to which British manufactures are sold in China, is, in a great measure, or entirely, owing to the exertions of the East India Company. Can you state what or whereabouts is the amount of that sale at present ? —I believe at least a million sterling in value. In what articles r— Chiefly woollens and metal*. Can you state to the Committee what difficulties the East India Com- pany have had to contend with, in producing the present sale of those commodities in China?— The Chinese generally entertain considerable prejudices against any new article, and it is therefore often necessary to dispose of it for a considerable time at a loss ; but after a time those pre- judices wear off, and the merits and value of the articles are known, and the sale extended. Do you mean to state, that in point of fact, the sale of British wool- lens to a large amount in China, has been produced by the Company having sold them, in the first instance, at a loss ? — 1 conceive that that is one of the causes of the present extent of the sale of British produce ; in addition to which the Company enter into contracts to dispose of those articles in return for teas purchased of the China merchants. Do you know, in point of fact, that in the commencement of that trade with China, the East India Company disposed of our woollens in that country at a loss ? — it appears by the accounts of the East India Com- pany, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 715 pany, that the woollens have been sold at a loss, and I hive no doubt that Sir G:o. Tfior. has been the case. Siaunlon, Hart. Do you know whether a taste for the woollen manufactures of this country is now established to a considerable degree in China, by the means the Company have taken for that purpose? — The taste for British woollens has certainly been introduced to a considerable extent hi China. Can you state to the Committee the nature of the contracts made be- tween the Company and the Hong merchants, by means of which the sale of our manufactures has been, in a considerable degree, forced into that country ? — As the Chinese merchants derive their profits chiefly from the sale of teas, they are willing, for the sake of those profus, to contract to receive the woollens, with little or no profit to themselves upon them ; those contracts are accordingly very essential to the sale of our British manufactures in that country. You mean, that from the advantage they gain in selling their tea to the East India Company, they have been willing to contract with the East India Company for taking off our manufactures, even without a profit to themselves ? — I conceive that is the principle, or understanding, upon which the contracts are made. Do you know whether, in consequence of such measures having been pursued by the Company, their trade with China, in our woollen manu- factures, is now profitable to them as well as to the nation ?— To the best of my recollection, it has become decidedlv profitable to the Company in some articles of the woollens. Has the reception of British woollens in China been procured in a con- siderable degree by the Company's attention to their quality ? — The at- tention of the Company to the quality of their woollens, and also to the prevention of any irregularity or deception in the packages in which they are contained, has contributed in a very important degree to their circu- lation and reception throughout the empire of China. Is not the Company's mark, in all parts of China, admitted as full proof, both of the quality and the quantity of the goods that are sold ander it ? — 1 have always understood so. Do the Americans, and other foreigners, who trade to China, carry 5 C out "46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir Geo. 7 has. out manufactures, or bullion, to exchange for the commodities they get Staunton, Bait, there ? — Tliey carry out bullion to a considerable extent, and some ar- ticles of native produce ; but few, if any, manufactures, as far as I am acquainted. Can you form any idea of the average annual importation of tea to this country ? — The cargoes are provided in China, upon the assumption that the demand is from twenty -four to twenty-five millions of pounds. Considering that tea is become almost a necessary of life among the lower as well as the higher ranks in this country, do not you think that very great distress in this country would be the consequence of a great reduction, cither of the quantity of the tea imported, or of any great de- terioration in its quality? — I should conceive it certainly would beat- tended with distress and inconvenience to the country, under the present circumstances of the universality of the demand. Do you think, that if the trade between this country and China were thrown open, it might be a probable consequence of it ; that either the quantity of tea would be ill proportioned to the demand, or that the qua- lity of it would be deteriorated ? — I conceive the measures now taken by the East India Company for regulating the supply in proportion to th© demand, in respect to the aggregate amount, and also in respect of the different species of tea of which that aggregate eonsists, could not be taken by individuals ; and therefore that it is very probable that teas of an inferior quality would be imported, and that the supply would also fluc- tuate in a manner that would be very inconvenient and prejudicial to the interests of the consumer. Are you of opinion, that any material derangement of, or inroad upon, the tea trade, might be attended with great danger, as well to the revenues of this country as to those of the East India Company ?— I am not able to speak to how far smuggling might be practicable by individuals, but I conceive it would be certainly much more practicable than under the present system, and therefore probably attended with the effect stated in the question. Can you state, from your own knowledge, whether there is any pecu- liar nicety required in adjusting the supply of tea to the demand, and in selecting the various kinds of tea ? —I should conceive, as I have already stated, that it is very important to the consumer that the supply should be regular and uniform ; there is also a very considerable nicety requisite in the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7-17 the selection of teas, which is attended to under the present system, and Sir Geo. 1 'has. which probably could not under any other. Staunton, Bart. I v Is not tea an article that requires the nicest examination to prevent its adulteration ? — It does so, more than any article with which I am acquainted. Can you state what becomes of any damaged tea that may be in the Company's possession, even supposing it might be saleable ? — I have understood that, in many instances, damaged teas are sent down in barges to the mouth of the Thames, and there thrown into the sea in the presence of the officers of the revenue who attend to see the tea so destroyed. Do you mean to state that it is the practice of the Company to destroy all damaged teas, even though they might,, if they pleased, sell them at an inferior price ? — So I have understood. Do you know what becomes of tea of a bad quality, if it should turn out that the Company are in any instances imposed upon by the merchants in China, or have by accident purchased such teas ? — Teas of a bad and objectionable quality, have, in many instances, been returned on the hands of the owners and original merchants, of whom they were pur- chased, and the prices paid for those teas deducted from their accounts. Do you mean that without any dispute the Chinese merchants are ac- customed to allow the price of such teas of inferior quality, in account with the Company? — The Chinese merchants, have, generally speaking, such confidence in the honour and good faith of the Company, that they are in the habit of submitting to such charges with little or no opposition. Do you think that such a practice could possibly be pursued by any private merchants dealing in the same article ? — I should conceive not ; I know of no instance in which it has been practised. Are there not certain kinds of tea, the growth and manufacture of which are encouraged by the East India Company, though not in a very great degree profitable, that are imported in general with other teas, the growth and manufacture of which individuals would not probably encourage ? — There are certain species of tea, the growth and cultivation of which the Company encourage to a much greater degree by higher prices than indi- viduals would be likely to do , this is on account of the advantage of a 5C2 portion "48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE gir.'GcQ, Thos. portion of those teas being included in the supply for general consump- StatintoiK, Bait. tion. These teas are probably mixed with other teas by the teamen in •— y } England. From your knowledge of the tea trade, do you think it of great gene- ral importance to that trade that the growth and manufacture ot such spe- cies of tea should be encouraged ? — I cannot speak from my own know- ledge ; but I conceive, from the information of others, that it must be a considerable advantage to the tea trade in general. Are you of opinion, that upon the present system, the quality, the quantity, and the appreciation of the annual supply of tea to this country is carried to the highest pitch of perfection r — I am not aware of any change from the present system by which it could be improved. Are not you of opinion, that upon this subject, the East India Compa- ny are guided by more liberal motives than in the nature of things it can be expected any individual traders can be ? — I should think that, as the Company look forward prospectively to the future success and extension of die trade, they must act frequently upon different and more enlarged principles than individuals who have only their present interest in view in the sale of their respective cargoes. If a free trade were opened with China, do you think it would be possi- ble for the East India Company to make any calculation for suiting their tonnage for the supply of the article, or the supply to the demand in this country ? — Every competition, in proportion to the extent of that compe- tition, would necessarily disturb the arrangements and calculations of the Company. Supposing the same event of a free trade, are y^u of opinion that it would be possible to prevent inferior and damaged teas, by direct or indi- rect channels, from finding their way into the British market? — I am not aware of any regulations that could prevent such tea being introduced into the British market. Is it your opinion, that such inferior or damaged teas, if introduced in any considerable quantity into the British market, might prove very per- nicious to the health of the people who used them ? — I am not aware of any tea at present procurable in the Canton market that is peculiarly pre- judicial to the health — but if inferior and objectionable teas were intro- duced, it would be certainly likely to diminish the taste for that article, and therefore to decrease the consumption. If EAST -INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 749 If private ships fitted out from British ports were allowed to navigate Sir Geo. Thos. directly to and from the eastern islands, are you of opinion that they would Staunton, Bart. by indirect means find methods of securing to themselves a participation < ^- ' in the tea trade ? — I have no doubt that means would be found of procur- ing teas In the Eastern Islands, and that therefore it is probable they might be introduced from thence into this country. Are not the eastern seas and islands full of Chinese vessels and colonies? —There are Chinese vessels and colonies, I understand, in almost % every part of the Eastern Archipelago. Have you any doubt that by means of these colonies and vessels, pri- vate ships from hence, who are allowed to enter the eastern seas, would be enabled to obtain teas fro.n China ? — I have no doubt that they would. Have you any doubt that teas so procured, though of inferior quality, would in a great degree supercede the use of the East India Company's teas ? — As they would be purchased under an evasion of the Chinese ex- port duties, and particularly if they were sold under an evasion of the English import duties, they would come to the consumer upon much cheaper terms than those of the Company, and would therefore necessarily interfere with the sale of the Company's teas, though of an interior and les* acceptable quality. Are not you of opinion that the high duties upon tea in this country hold out the strongest temptations to smuggling in every way ? — I should con- ceive that they must. Are you of opinion, that if a free trade were opened between this coun- try and India, to the exclusion of China and the Chinese Seas, means would be found by the private trader to smuggle tea from India ? — Cer- tainly not to the same extent as if the trade to the eastern islands were opened ; but I am unable to say whether smuggling would be actually im- practicable in that case. If British vessels were permitted to go to Manilla, are you of opinion, that that situation would be peculiarly convenient for the smuggling of tea from China to this country ? — It would have a peculiar convenience from its proximity to the port of Canton, and from its being frequented by Chinese vessels. Do you know whether there would not be another peculiar facility from vessels being enabled to pass to and from Canton and Manilla at all sea- sons 7 #> MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Sir Geo. T/ios. sons of the year ? — They arc certainly enabled to pass and repass at all sea- Staunton, Bart, sons of the year, with some difference in point of time. State to the Committee, supposing a trade opened»with India, and that the smuggling of tea took place, by cargoes being taken up in India by the private traders, in what way do you imagine those cargoes would be conveyed from China to India ? — Teas are at present purchased by the country ships trading between China and India without any sort of. difficulty. (Examined by the Committee.) Do you know what is the Chinese duty upon tea ? — I am not acquaint- ed with the exact amount of the duty ; but the imperial duty on tea is not considerable. Whereabout is the duty upon the export of tea supplied by the Hong merchants ? — I have never seen any certain and authentic document on this subject, and therefore cannot give an opinion. Is it known to you whether the Chinese private traders find means to evade those ditties? — The Chinese junks do not clear out generally for foreign ports; and therefore they are not liable by the laws of China to the same duties as foreign vessels. Chinese vessels are not allowed by the laws of the country to proceed, with very few exceptions, to any fo- reign countries. An evasion of the Chinese duties is possible ? — Yes ; because they do not clear out to a foreign port. Do you know whether the island of Banca supplies much tin to the Chinese market ? — It is a considerable source of the supply of tin to the Chinese market. Do you know the relative price of the tin supplied from Banca, and that imported from England ? — I do not recollect. [The Witness withdrew. [Adjourned to To-morrow, eleven o'clock. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. T51 Mortis, \V>die'Maij,\%\3. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chaio. "V" DANIEL BEALE, Esq. was called, in and examined as follows : Mr. JacJcson] You resided some time at Canton ? — I did. Daniel Beak, Esq. How long did you reside there ?— From the latter end of the year I 1787 to the middle of 1797. About ten years ? — Yes. In what situation or capacity did you reside there ?— I was Prussian Consul at Canton, and in that situation carried on a very extensive business as merchant and agent. For what description of persons were you agent ? — For many of the mercantile houses in Bombay and Bengal. Did that afford you full and ample opportunity of understanding the general nature of the Chinese trade, as between the Chinese and Euro- peans ? — No doubt I had ample opportunity of knowing every thing respect- ing it. Describe to the Committee the general mode of carrying on the trade, as between the Chinese and the East-India Company ? — The trade between the Chinese and the East-India Company is carried on by a set of mer- chants called Hong merchants, who are licensed by the Chinese govern- ment ; they are also called security merchants, from the circumstance of their being security for the Company's ships as they arrive in rotation ; the senior Hong merchant generally securing the first ship arriving, the second the next, and so on in rotation till the whole number are secured ; the number of Hong merchants being about nine, when I was in China, a9 nearly as I recollect. 1 What 752 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Beale What do you mean by securing the ships ? — Responsible to the Chinese Esq. government for the dufcies, as well as for the good conduct or the com- »- ' mander and officers belonging to the respective ships; they are responsible for the duties on imports and exports. Does the Chinese government require that for every ship that is allowed to take harbour in the river, their security shall be given ? — It is impossi- ble that any trade can take place with any ships arriving in the port of Canton till she is secured ; the reason why the Company's ships are secured in rotation is, that the Company's trade is sufficiently extensive to give employ to all the Hong merchants; that is, all the Hong merchants have more or less to do with the Company's ships arriving. You mean all the nine Hong merchants? — Yes, the security merchants. Have those Hong merchants any particular privilege given to them from the Chinese government, with respect to trade ? — The exclusive right of importing or exporting; no other Chinese can import or export, except through them. Does that apply to the trade with Europeans, or generally ? —With the Europeans. Are there other Chinese merchants resident at Canton that deal with the Europeans? — There are other merchants that trade with the Europeans; but we consider them what we call outside merchants, and that there is no security to any indi\iduals trading with them, whereas in trading with the Hong merchants, there is the security of the Hong, and their known cha- racter in that situation. Do those outside merchants deal under the privilege and license of the Hong merchants ? — -I do not consider that to be exactly the case ; I con- ceive, if I purchase a quantity ot teas from the outside merchant, that out- side merchant is under the necessity of applying to the Hong merchant for permission to ship the teas off in his name. Then the outside merchant would require the Hong merchant's sanction for making the shipment ? — Yes; it is only the needy Hong merchants who will permit them to ship off in their names; the advantage is, that they receive the duties immediately from them. Are there any particular rules, laws or regulations, enacted by the Chi- nese EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 753 nese with respect to the European ships when they are there, as to their Daniel Bealc, means of defence, such as their arms being deposited, or any rules of pre- Esq. caution on the part of the Chinese government ? — I have understood * y * formerly the guns of the ships used to be landed ; but that has not taken place during my residence, nor during the memory of any living person, I believe. Does the Chinese government discover in its regulations any particular degree of jealousy, with respect to the Europeans who trade there? — No doubt, by confining them to particular limits ; in that respect, a jealousy may be said to be observed. Is it your opinion that the regulations, whatever they might have been, are now materially relaxed towards Europeans? — J conceive the Europeans are confined to the same individual limits now, that they were accustomed to be. Have you had an opportunity of perceiving whether the East India Company seem to stand high, or otherwise, in the confidence of the Chinese government ? — There is no doubt the East-India Company's representatives stand very high in the estimation of the Canton merchants, and I should suppose in the opinion of the government also, from the regularity with which they conduct their tiade, and the particular good conduct of the gentlemen in their service. Have you had an opportunity of observing whether the East-India Com- pany stand very high in the opinion of the Chinese, with regard to com- mercial integrity? — No doubt I have had that opportunity, and I know the Company's bales frequently circulate without being opened, merely from the regularity with which the business is transacted, and it is known from the description of the supracargo that they actually contain the articles specified ; the Company's mark is established, and gives currency to every thing they deal in, and a preference to it. Do you mean that those bales will pass into the interior parts of China, under the sanction of the Company's mark, to a considerable distance from Canton? — 1 consider that I can better explain what I mean by the relation ■of an anecdote, if it is not taking up too much of the time of the Com- mittee: — I recollect that the late Captain MTntosh commanded the Hin- dostan, and was appointed by the Company to attend upon the embassy ; he expected that the ship he commanded would have an opportunity of visiting various ports in China, and in consequence laid in a very large in- 5 D vestment 754 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Beak, vestment of different articles that he conceived would he adapted to the Esq. Chinese market, under an expectation ot being able to sell them at a greater price than such articles sold at the port ot Canton ; he was disap- pointed in this, for he returned to C.mton without being able to sell ai the different ports that he went to, any individual article of his investment. Among other articles he had a quantity of cloth, and cloth being generally confined to the Company's tnide, he could not appear himself to sell it ; he applied to me to take it into my custody and to dispose of it for him ; the cloth, as I was informed by Captain M'lntosh, had been put up by the Company's packers in this country, ana I was extremely anxious to obtain for him the be^t price ; to my great surprise, on offering it to several of the merchants, I could not obtain the prime cost. 1 was anxious to obtain from them the reason, and at last, with reluctance, was told by one that he had no doubt the cloth was of the same quality as the Company's, and such as I had represented it to be in all respects, but that it wanted one essential point, and that was the Company's mark ; had he himself, been to use the cloth, he said he should have taken it upon my word, but as it was to pass from hand to hand, without the Company's mark, no person would believe him that it was of the quality he described it to be. Does that mark indicate both quality and measure; what sanction d cs the mark convey, what sort of warranty? — It warrants it to be of the fineness the Company's cloth generally is, and that the bale contains so many pieces, and each piece so many yards. Do you know whether any other European traders, of any description, have ever arrived at inspiring that degree of confidence that their mark alone should pass current, as a true indication of quality and contents of package? — I would say, generally, that the supracargoes of other foreign companies established there are, in general, men of respectability and good character, and, of course, enjoy a certain degree of confidence with the Chinese; but I do not, of my own knowledge, know of any particular articles that have the same confidence ; I know that a chest of opium, with the Company's mark, will pass in the same way as a bale of cloth. Do you know any other instance of an equal degrecof confidence?— Generally speaking, I should say n t, certainly; but at the same time I wish not to be understood to cast any reflections upon any other compa- nies by any means. Are you of opinion that the Chinese trade is carried on as between the Chinese and this eountry, better through the medium of the East India Company,. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 755 Company, than it could through any other possible medium ? — I am Daniel Dealc, decidedly of opinion, that it is impossible to carry on the intercourse Esq. between this country and China to a greater advantage than it is now carried * Y ' on through the medium of the Company ; and I give, as my reason, the systematic regularity with which the Company's concerns are conducted ; the regular dispatch of their ships from this country insures their arrival at the proper seasons in China ; the aid the Company derive from their resident supracargoes ; gentlemen who have grown up from youth to man- hood in their service, aiid who, from their being in the habit of holding frequent consultations in the season of business with the Hong merchants, obtain every information that is necessary to regulate their imports. Is it of essential importance in the conduct of a business of that kind, that the import should be thus regulated ? — No doubt, on account of the seasons ; there is a particular season of business, and that past, the imports, in many cases, would remain till the following season unsold. You have stated your belief that the Chinese trade could not be carried on to more advantage for this country than it is through the medium of the East India Company ; according to the best of your experience do you believe, that it could possibly be carried on so well through any other given medium? — I do not think it could possibly be carried on so well through any other given medium, because I regard the principal staple from this country, as woollens ; and that the trade between this country, as carried on by the Company, is at present a forced trade ; that is, that no individuals fitting out a ship in the port of London, could load her with woollens, or any articles of that description saleable at Canton, and sell them there at an advanced price. Favour the Committee with some account of the progress of (he woollen trade by the East-India Company; you recollect it when it was much smaller than it is now? — I recollect it in the year 1792, when it was much smaller than it is now. Can you state the proportions ? — I cannot from my own knowledge ; I have understood that the trade has been increased from a little more than ^£lOO,000 in the year 1792, to, at the present period, an export nearly of a million, and I attribute that to several circumstances ; independently of jny situation there, I traded to Canton from 1 777 to 1 787 ; I have already stated, that I attribute it very much to the regularity and systematic manner in which it is carried on ; the period from 1792 to the present 5 D 2 period 756 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Beetle, period has been particularly fortunate, because in that period there has Esq. been excluded from the port of Canton, the French, the Dutch, the v Danes and Swedes, all of whom imported woollens and European manu- factures, more or less. You have stated, that to some extent the export trade of this country, through the medium of the East India Company, was a forced trade; what do you mean by that? —I mean by a forced trade, as I have already stated, that no person fitting out a ship from hence, and loading, her with woollens, would be able to sell at a profit. In what way has the East India Company induced the Chinese to buy those woollens? — Their trade is divided into shares, to the best of my recollection, and those Hong merchants have the opportunity of supply- ing most teas that take most cloth ; I do not mean by that to say, that it is a barter of so many bales of cloth for so many chests of tea. Do you mean to say, that the supracargoes regulate their prices of tea, in some measure, according to the quantity of cloth the Hong merchants will buy ? — The Company's import of woollens is divided into shares, and the Hong merchant that takes the greater number of shares of the cloth, has the greater number of shares in the export trade. Is that regular rule observed, in order to encourage the Hong merchant to take a quantity of cloth ? — There is a considerable discretionary power in the breasts of the committee of supracargoes, and I do not suppose they act on any general rule, they are governed by discretion in their pur- chases and sales. Has that discretion, in its operation, held out a material encouragement to the Hong merchants to buy the woollens of this country ? — No doubt, I conceive it has; those who take the greatest quantity of woollens will' have most teas taken from them. Does not the Hong merchant understand that it is expected, as a sort of condition, that he will take the woollens of this country, if the teas are bought of him to any material extent ? — I believe, if the Company's documents were referred to, it would be found that the trade is, in a great degree, regulated from season to season, and that they contract for a quantity of woollens and a quantity of camlets, and the advantage of the resident supracargoes is great ; from those consultations it enables them to regulate their trade by a correspondence with the committee of corre- -•londcnce EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. fyf spondence in this country, and the representations of the supracargoes is, Daniel Beak, I conceive, paid attention to by the committee of correspondence in this Esq. country; I speak of the effect. ' r — -* The effect of this has been the encouragement of the Hong merchants to purchase the woollens of this country? — No doubt ; and the policy of the Company has been, I presume, such as to have a large stock, so as to prevent any individual importing woollens and selling them at an advance. According to the best of your judgment, as a merchant, did the Com- pany sell those woollens, looking a little to the earlier part of the history of it, to a loss or to a profit? — In the earlier part, I do not conceive the Company were regulated by the same policy exactly, as I now perceive they are; I judge of the effect when their imports were small ; no doubt they would have greater ad vantage, in proportion, from a smaller quantity than they have from the sale of a larger; their object has been, I con- ceive, very plainly, to force the sale of woollens as I have described. Do you mean by forcing it, that they subjected themselves to any degree of loss, rather than not press the article ? — I mean most- distinctly, by forcing it, to say this; it has always been an object to have a quantity there, that they should never know the want of the articles. The Hong merchants themselves are persons of sufficient capital to enable them to keep the woollens by then lor a considerable time ? — Some of them are, and some are not ; the wealthy Hong merchants have kept woollens for several years, while the more needy have been glad to dis- pose of them at a very inferior price indeed. Have you any means of knowing whether the Hong merchants have disposed of their woollens above prime cost, ©r at a loss, or how? — I have known that they have sold them considerably under prime cost. Will the Hong merchants run that risk, in order to have an opportu- nity of selling their teas to such a customer as the Company ? — No doubt they know they must each take a certain quantity of woollens, in order to enable them to sell a quantity of teas to the Company. If the Company were to cease to press the purchase of British woollens in this way, could individual traders in this country, do you apprehend, if the trade were opened, effect such a sale of them?— 1 conceive, if the trade 75$> MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Bcale, trade were opened, the export of woollens from this country to China Esq. would immediately diminish ; hecause no merchant would take a quantity of woollens upon the chance of selling them aj^ain, and at a loss, if he had the option of receiving money instead of woollens ; and individuals, exporting from this country, if they found any difficulty in the sale of their woollens at Canton, upon another speculation to that country would avoid taking woollens, and would take dollars. Do you think that the diminution of the sale of woollens from this country to China, under the circumstances of an open trade, would be material ? — I have no doubt it would be very material, for the reasons I have described. Has the effect of the connection between the Hong merchants and the Company been to establish an uniform price of tea, or nearly so ? — The operation of the Company's resident supra-cargoes has been to keep down the prices of the teas delivered to the Company; lam speaking now from memory merely ; and 1 think, in the period of five-and thirty years that I have known China, the advance of the price on teas has beeu very ■small. State to the Committee to what you impute this non-advance of price? — I impute it to the operation of the Company's supra cargoes resorting to their former contracts from year to year, and watching with great jea- lousy any advance on the part of the Chinese : the next reason is. that the Company are the purchasers of at least four-fifths of the tea exported from Canton. Do you mean, that the Company, from the magnitude of their pur- chase, and the authority of their station, have been able thus to keep down the price of tea ?— I mean to say this most distinctly, that the pur- chase of the Company's teas being made by one committee, on one hand, if I may so term it, has tended to keep down the price of teas, and will continue to keep it down while it so remains ; but if the Company's trade were thrown open, and instead of one committee being the purchaser of four-fifths of the tea exported from Canton, there were, as there would be at Last, eighty purchasers, because I conceive there would be eighty ships, where there are now only twenty ; in that case, the prices of tea would immediately materially advance, for this plain reason, a supra- cargo of one ship would be induced to give a higher price in order to have a particular chop of teas Jchop signifying a mark); another would be in- duced to give a higher price, in order to secure an immediate dispatch of his EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 750 his ship; another probably', from the particular circumstances Under Daniel Bcale, which he was trading, would be under the necessity of giving a higher ^ sc l price, from requiring credit ; and when once high prices were established, it would be very difficult to bring them back, as the Chinese would always quote the last high price he had obtained from one supra cargo, to the next person coming to purchase of him. Describe more particularly what you mean by the word chop, in your last answer? — By the word chop, I mean the Chinese mark indicating a particular growth of teas, containing a quantity of tea of one uniform quality in a number of chests all of one chop or mark. What other leading article of British manufacture is successfully ex- ported from this country to Canton? — Lead, tin, camlets, which are considered among woollens ; the Company do not trade in smaller articles; they leave them to their commanders and officers, who have a certain portion of the tonnage on board each ship, and cairy out such articles as are suited, in their opinion, to the Chinese market. Are the commanders and officers at liberty to carry out lead and tin? — Yes ; but not woollens. Do you think, if the trade were opened, the quantity would be ma- terially d creased? — I do. Do you think that which was exported under the circumstances of an open trade would fetch as good prices as tha" now exported by the East India Company ? — I have already stated, that were the trade thrown open, the quantity of woollens exported would very sensibly diminish, because I am vety sensible that the trade the Company now carry on, is a forced trade; 1 conceive that any private merchant carrying out a quantity of woollens and losing by them, would not be induced to repeat that specu- lation ; that is, if he took out this year a hundred bales, and lost ten per cent, by them, he would be induced next year to take out fifty only. Do the Hong merchants act so far in connection as to make it, in fact, a monopoly of trade among themselves ? — No, by no means, every man is governed by his own individual interest. Each Hong merchant trades as much as he can for himself? — No. doubt. Bat 760 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Dcniel Bcalf, But no other person, without their sanction or permission ? — Certainly Esq. not; they cannot import our manufactures, nor can they purchase but *—■ v — — ' under the sanction of his chop or licence. Supposing a large number of persons at the market, do you think that would lead to any deterioration of quality ? — Most undoubtedly ; the de- terioration of quality would be very considerable, from the want of judg- ment in the persons purchasing ; at present, the Company have the ad- vantage, not only of their own resident supra-cargoes, but they are also assisted by a tea- inspector, a gentleman conversant in the tea trade in this country ; and no teas are received from the Hong merchants and shipped on board the Company's ships on the Company's account but what un- dergo a very rigid inspection from this gentleman. Do you mean that the Chinese are that sort of people, that when deal- ing; with Englishmen not so conversant with the business, they would take advantage of their want of judgment, and materially lower the qua- lity of the teas? — I have a perfect recollection when the Company first sent out an inspector to Canton, for the purpose of inspecting the teas; the advantage they derived from that inspector was, that he immediately classed the teas, and he distinguished those chops that were of a particu- lar quality, and those that were of an inferior ; those that were of an in- ferior he rejected altogether, on account of their false package, and they were subsequently purchased at an abatement of about one-third of the price ; 1 do conceive this bad the effect of making the Chinese more cir- cumspect in the package of their teas; and that the delivery of teas to the Company always takes place of a superior quality. Doyou recollect what description of purchasers those teas met with r — Tl cy were sent to this country, under the denomination of superior hyson skins. Do you think the high prices you suppose the open trade would induce, might also induce material admixture or deterioration of the article, in order to bring down the price nearer to the level of the present prices ? — I have no sort of doubt that an open trade to China would tend to deterio- rate the quality of teas ; for they would no longer undergo the rigid in- spection they now do from the Company. Do you think they would deteriorate them to bring them down so as to meet the convenience of all the purchasers at low prices ? — I think this, that there would not be so much attention paid to the package of the teas, and EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 76 1 and *he teas would be deteriorated in quality in consequence of their not Daniel Beule, undergoing the same inspection as they now do. "' Do you think they would be tempted under such circumstances, in order to meet purchasers at a low price, to mix any other drug or vegeta- ble with tea ? — They ceitainly would mix the teas, and would falsely pack them, as I before stated. Would any material deterioration make a difference in the wholesome- ness of the article ? — That I cannot say ; one cannot say what they would substitute. Do you apprehend substitution would follow this open trade ? — I have already stated, that a consequence of an open trade would be a deteriora- tion in the quality of the teas ; the Company now have the refusal of all the best teas that come to the market; all the best teas arriving at Canton, are now tendered to the Company. Since your acquaintance with Canton, can you say, whether either by the Company themselves, or their commanders or officers, every degree of enterprize has been used to increase the exports of this country in British manufactures ? — I have no doubt of it; for in every Company's ship going from this country, I believe there is to the extent of about ninety tons allotted to the commanders and officers of the ship, which they fill up in any manner they please, except with woollens. In the course of years, and in those assorted cargoes, has every ra- tional attempt been ri ade to increase the export of British manufactures to China? — I am satisfied every experiment has been made, and is con- tinually making by the commanders and officers of the Company's ships who are men of considerable enterprize ; and if any articles were saleable in Canton, thev would carry them out. Do you apprehend, that opening the trade to China would materially increase the Chinese tonsumptin of British manufactures ?— In no de- gree whatever, in my humble opinion ; I do n ,t think the Chinese are to be induced to wear buckles, or to use knives and forks ; I mean by that sort of answer to state, that th.ir habits are fixed. Do you mean, that from the fixed habits of their life and their general character, you would entertain no hope of increasing the expoitof British manufactures, under the circumstances of an open trade? — I conceive, 5 E that ■ 7C2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE • • JJjnlel Bi'ale , that theprivilegp afforded of nh-ity tons in each ship, filled pply, the Esip commanders and officers, gives every opportunity of experiment that can be made from (his coiurtry to China'. Have thr.se experiments been made, in point of fact, more or less duping the number pf years you have resided at Canton? — Every vear there is some new article attempted to be carried out, which turns out favour- able, or otherwise. Can you stats wha* articles of B.iitish manufacture wereeon «ume 1 by the natives of the Eastern slands?— I should not suppose th t the uativcS, tiie Eastern islands consume any arti les of Biitish manufactu e. Do they use coarse cutlery ? — Coarse- cutlery, Malay knives as they are- called ; but those articles are generally carried out to Bengal ; and the trade to the Eastern islands is ca ried on from Bengal ; oace had a ship myself engaged in it, she carried nothing but < pium and dohars. Having been engaged in that trade yourself, did you adventure upon articles of British ma uifacture t the Eastern Inlands? — M >st certainly not; nothing but opium and dollars. Why did you forbear such an experiment as that ? — From the certai ty almost of not making any profit by it ; the ship 1 allude to, was called the Enterprize, commanded by Captain Elmore. If vou had thought that British manufactures would find a market in the Eastern Islands, had you the means of ex orting swefe, eiiher from India or this country ? — From this country, most certainly, i had not the means ; because the ship, to which 1 allude, was fitted out in the port of. Bengal. If you had not been disposed to make the adventure in British manu- factures, could you have obtained the articles? — i have no doubt, that in the port of Calcutta, British articles might have been procured, if they were desirable ; but they were not. Can you state any other article of British manufacture but coarse cut- lery, the Eastern islands take: — I really cannot; and 1 shall suppose coarse cutlery is in very small quantities, hardly worth sending: piece- goods for the turbans, and for the cotnberbands of the manufacture of Bengal, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 763 Bengal, are also exported ; but the ship I sent, carried nothing but Daniel Bealt: opium and dollars. -k sc l* "V- Whenyou speak of articles for turbans, you speak of Indian manu- factures ? — Yes ; the articles made in Bengal. Do the natives of those islands manufacture themselves such articles of dress as they wear r — I cannot say ; I should suppose that the Malays do not manufacture themselves, to any extent. Their wants in point of dress are very limited, are they not ? — Very limited indeed ; they merely wear something round the waist, and a tur- ban round the head. Do you know whether they manufacture their own cresses, or side arms ? — I cannot say ; but I should think they do. According to your general knowledge and experience as merchant and agent, do you believe that, in case of an open trade, there would bs. room for any increased export of British manufactures to trie Eastern Is- lands ?— I should think not. Supposing the trade thus opened, and that every subject of the United Kingdom had access to the eastern seas, is it your opinion that, with proper and previous arrangements, and supposing tea to be the object of the adventurer, he could get supplied in those seas without going to Can- ton f — By proper arrangements, he might have any quantity of teas. In what way would thev obtain this supply? — Many country ships return from the port of Canton without any cargo whatever ; and those ships might take any quantity of tea ; a previous arrangement would in- duce them. The question refers to parties who might be prohibited from going ab- solutely to Canton ; supposing those seas to be open to ail the subjects of the United Kingdom, such being the object of the adventurer, could not he get supplied with teas ? — The Portuguese from Macao might-export teas in any quantity. Through this medium, English country private ships mi^ht bf sup- plied from the Eastern Islands ? — Yes, doubtless ; a considerable export might also take place in Chinese junks to Batavia; there are at present 5 E 2 five '6t MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Eeale, five junks sait annually from the port of Amoy to Batavia ; and I am told Esq. the emigration upon these ju ks amounts to },OUQ Chinese evervyear; *■ ^ ' there areahove 40,000 Chinese established in Batavia and its dependencies; and these Chinese junks supply them with tea and other articles ; but if tea were once made an article des rable to be purchased at Batavia I am satisfied it might be made an article of supply nearly as cheap, on account of the duties and charges of shipping ofil The duties laid on the export of tea bv the Chinese government are very considerable, are they not ? — cannot state the duties precisely per pecul ; but I have reason to bdieve they are much less upon the expor- tation of tea by a Chinese junk than upon the exportation by an Euro- pean ship. What is the reason, the one being native and the other foreign ? — The one being native ; I do not believe that the Chinese government themr selves encourage any foreign trade by the Chinese ; and 1 have been told every junk sailing from China, though bound for Batavia, makes what the French call a proces -verbal, stating that they have been dr.ven out to sea, making out a story to (it the cae,. Are the Chinese duties so considerable as would induce speculators to evade them, in the case of an open trade, and lay in their teas through the medium of Chinese junks, or Portuguese, or any other irregular me- dium ? — The trade at present with Europeans is confined to the port of Canton : these junks do not go from the [ ort of Canton, but from the port of Amoy, where I do conceive the export duties would be consider- ably less than from the port of Canton, and the charges of transhipment from the one port to the other would be less- Speaking as a British merchant, and looking to an open trade in those seas, and adding the British duty of ninety five percent, to those duties which you think would be avoided in China, do you think that this uni- versal access to the eastern seas would induce smuggling as an enterprize or adventure upon the part of those who should have access to them? — 1 have no doubt teas might be procured with the greatest faciliy in the manner I have described ; but were I engaged in a smuggling transaction of this kind, I sho Id not go that way to work, 1 should not employ those mtans, i sho.. Id employ an American. D ' any means or medium occur to you, through which, a British ad- venturer "might then extens ; vely smuggle teas ? — 1 do conceive, that unless some Supposing the trade thus to be opened, and that low priced teas were the object ot the adventurer,, do you not apprehend that the Chinese or those that shou'd trade from the place you have described, would adulterate the tea to such a degree as to m et the purchaser^ price, if he insisted upon a low and cheap kind ? — I have no doubt teas may be had of any price. From the circumstances of a greater or a less degree of adulteration ?« No doubt. What do the Americans export to Canton, for instance? — The Americans are not manufacturers, and, or course, they export a small quantity of ginseng ; some few beaver skins I have seen exported by American ships, and dollars. They export very little manufactures ? — They are not manufacturers, and of course they do not export manufactures ; there have been instances of ships fitting out from this identical port of London, with manufactures, and proceeding to Canton ; but the speculation has turned out so disadvan- tageous that they did not repeat it, and theretore they are content to take dollars, and purchase silks, nankeens and tea>, with those dollars. Do the Portuguese export their manufactured commodities for a retu -Y- EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7 not you suppose it likely, that in the event of a free trade to China, persons well acquainted with the different qualities ol tea wuukl proceed from this c i untry, tor the purpose of engaging in that commerce ? — I have no u> ubr they would ; but my great reason goes in this way, that the Company's iea- are now purchased by the Company's supracargoes, who are the purcha eis of foui-fi'ths ot the whole quantity ol teas that they sell; their , ur. ha es are Regulated under the inspection ol supracargoes, and an inspector, who are competent judges ; but it the tiade was thrown open, an., t.c.e si e e ci-htv .diips, and eighty supracargoes to purchase the same quantity, and, ot iourse, each having an individual interest only, not a genera] interest, as the Company now lave, the teas will necessarily become deteiiorated, because there is nut the same strength of judgment to bring into the general inspection. Are not you of opinion, that a free competition in the purchase of tea, as in all other articles, will produce to the pub.ic the best commodities at the lowest possible price ? — XI y great reasoning has been to shew, that the Company have kept down the prices ot teas; that for the last .hiny five years the prices of tea have advanced in a very small degree ; but I have no doubt, it the trade were thrown open, any set ot men f,oing to purchase superior teas must pay a larger pnee ; there would not be a general standing price as there is now ; and in consequence ot the price be-ing advanced tor a particular set of teas, th t would have the effect ot advanc- ing the price generally upon all ti as, and when once a larger price was nxee, it would never ger down again. Another inconvenience would result lr m an open trade : the Company's ships are now upwards of 1,200 tons burthen* vvt.h a v ew to this particular trade ; were the nade to be thrown open to indh kluals, and ships ot smaller burthen introduced, ships ot 350 ton-., there would be a disad\ antage ot at least J_ 50,000 per annum in port chaises, the port char r es upon a large ship not bearing any pro- portion to those upon a small one. You mean the Chinese duties ?— Yes. You- "v- 768 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Dan'cl Beale, You mean a particular tax laid on ships in China ? — Every ship going E7 to 1792. Was that the last period of yoar being in China ? — No, I was there to 1797. Had the Americans any ships there ?— The Americans had very few ships in China, to the best of my recollection, till 1793 ; and I consider the great increase of the American trade to have taken place from that period ; the war tended very much to the increase of the American trade in China. What EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 760 What size of vessels were generally employed ? — From 250 to 300 tons; Daniel Bwlc, the American trade was not entirely confined to the export of tea from Esq. China, but they exported large quantities of nankeens and silks, upon { v } which they derived very great advantage by the sale to the French West India islands and Spanish America ; 1 have known an American ship take from China 300,000 pieces of nankeen in one season. Do you happen to know whether there were many disputes or differ- ences arising between the Chinese government and any of those persons ? — I am not at all aware of any; I wish also to sta ; e, that though I do not desire to be considered as an advocate of it, yet I do conceive, that the trade between America and China has tended to facilitate the trade of the English in China, by the quantity of dollars they have imported to China; for in consequence of the import of dollars to China, by the Americans, Portuguese, and Spaniards, the Company, I believe, no longer export bullion from this country to China, but on the contrary have imported a large quantity of bullion from China to this country ; and, I believe, such, generally, is the advantageous trade carried on by Great Britain and its dependencies to China, that the trade, as between Chinese and British subjects, has become very nearly a barter ; indeed, if it was possible to procure an exact return of all the imports and all the exports from Can- ton, I have no doubt it would be found this country had made the Chinese tributary to us. Do you mean the exports by country ships ? — I mean by country ships also ; for there is a considerable quantity of gold and silver exported by country ships from China to India, which does not appear. Is it not your opinion and belief, that the Americans procure those dollars from South America by the sale of East India and Chinese com- modities, which could not be conveyed there by private British mer- chants i — I am perfectly of opinion, that those American ships, of which I have any knowledge, procured their dollars at New Yoik, Philadelphia, or Boston, where they were fitted out ; how they came to Philadelphia, Boston, or New York, 1 cannot say. Is the Committee to understand it to be your opinion, that a consider- able loss has arisen to the East India Company from the exportation of woollens to China? — I did not intend to have so stated it ; but I mean to say, that the export of woollens by the Company is so considerable, that no individual can export from this country to China with any advantage, or without a loss, the market to China being continually stocked by the Company. 5 F In 770 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Bealc, In making a remittance to China, will not it enter into the calculation Esq. of a private merchant, whether it is not less advantag -ous to him to send *■ y y woollens, even under the disadvantage stated, than dollars, and tnat it will materially depend upon the price at which he can procure dollars, whether he Will send dollars or make part of his remittances to China in woollens ? — There is no doubt, at the present moment, dollars would not be to be pro- cured on any terms, not even at 6$. Qd. an ounce ; it would be impossible to carry on the trade to China under the present circu - ns"ances ; China, like a common centre, has remittances of cotton, tin, pepper, sandal wood, sharks fins, &c ; all those articles are centered there, and it is the produce arising from the sales of the different imports in China, which enables the Company to carry on their trade and make their purchases. Are you aware, that in point of fact, large quantities of dollars are re- ceived at the British free ports in the West Indies in payment for British man u fa .tures and East India commodities bold there ; and would that not therefore form a very easy and advantageous remittance from thence to China ? — I am not acquainted with the trade of the British West India islands. Upon a supposition that dollars can be procured in the West Indies in return for commodities similar td those by which the Americans procured their dollars, which were exported from New York and Philadelphia, would it not enter into the calculation of a merchant, whether he v. ould send woollens from this country or dollars from the West Indies, and would he not preler fo place his money in China in that art.cle that appeared to him the most likely to do it beneficially r — I do n, t ci nceive, in the present state of the navigation laws, that any ship could go from China, and carry a cargo of Chinese articles and sell them in the British West Indies; I conceive such a speculation as that pointed out would put the whole trade with China to extremely great hazard ; from the amount of teas now necessarily imported into this country for the consumption of the country, I have no doubt that a merchant going to China with dollars would procure a cargo with greater facility with dollars than he would with woollens. Are you acquainted with the circumstance of the Company purchasing dollars in America, and conveying them by American ships direct to China? — I have never heard that they did ; I believe the dollars that were imported by the Company from- China, were carried to China by American ships. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 771 Are there any articles of British manufacture prohibited to betaken to Daniel Beale, China, as part of officers investments ? — Woollens and camlets, generally, Esq. are prohibited. I ■v e Is the Committee to understand you to have said, in answer to a for- mer question, that the East India Company did every thing in their power to promote the sale of woollens and other British manufactures in China ? — I mean to say, yes, because they have an opportunity from the consultations their supracargoes hold with the Hong merchants, to know what sort of articles are likely to be desirable to the Chinese, and of course to recommend their importation. How do you reconcile this general desire, which you suppose the Company to have evinced to promote the sale of British manufactures in China, with their order to their officers not to take any woollens in their investments ? — I reconcile it in this way ; that the orders alluded to havi been standing orders for the last thirty or forty years, and that the Com pany have wished (I speak to my opinion) to keep these articles in their own hands, to protect the quality, and also to insure a certain sale for them. Are there always more woollens in China than there is an immediate demand for ? — I speak now from hearsay ; within the last ten years I believe there have. In the event of the price of woollens being from 15 to 25 per cent, reduced in China, do you suppose t h j t any considerable increase would take place in their consumption ? — 1 do not think there would. Why do you think so ? — Because a cloth coat is not within the com- pass of every man in China, nor but very few men in China. If by a reduction of from 15 to 25 per cent, it were brought more within his reach thp.n at present, do you not suppose it likely that that might occasion some increase of the consumption ? — I really do not con- ceive that any reduction in price, such as is there stated, would affect the consumption materially, because we should consider that the Chinese only wear woollen'cloths occasionally; they are not their general we r ; a China man, when he gets up in the morning, may have a dozen coats on, and the outer one only may be a woollen, while a.11 the rest may be of silk and other articles of their own produce; a coat, from tin- manner in which it is made, also has not the same friction, the same wear as ours 5 F 2 has, 772 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Beak, has, and a coat may be handed down from father to son, merely from Esq. the circumstance of its not varying in fashion. "V" Ts the Committee to understand, those Chinese who can afford to pur- chase woollen cloths are desirous of doing so ? — I believe every man would naturally be desirous to possess a woollen cloth, as we are always desirous of possessing property, no matter in what shape. Did you ever take any cotton manufactures to China for sale ? — Never. What are the other description of coats worn by the Chinese ? — Silk, cotton, satin coats lined with fur, their own manufacture ; the furs they buy. Are the cotton coats their own manufacture ? — Of nankeens, they dye them. Made from the cotton imported from Bombay ? — No ; the nankeens are made in a particular province, and brought down to Canton for sale ; it is a Chinese manufacture exclusively, what we call Chinese nankeens. Made of Chinese materials? — Yes, entirely so; they grow cotton in large quantities ; and they also import cotton in large quantities ; the import has been increased from 5,000 bales, since I first knew China, to upwards of 6o,000 annually. Are you acquainted with the fact, whether any security is given by the Hong merchants for foreign ships arriving at Canton ? — A foreign Euro- pean ship arriving in China would be secured by the Hong merchant who purchases her cargo. Are not the Hong merchants also securities for the American ships ? — No American or other ship arriving in China can transact any business there until she is secured; it follows therefore, that if the American im- ports a cargo, the merchant who secures her, is the purchaser of that cargo ; if she arrives without cargo, and having only dollars, she will be secured by the Hong merchant who sells the American the teas and other articles he exports from Canton. You have stated, that when you were in China, you did not happen to know of any disputes having arisen between the Chinese government, and the supracargoes and officers or seamen of any foreign ship, have you ever EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 773 ever hoard of any such disputes having taken place, though they may not Danid Bale, have come within your own knowledge? — I have no recollection of any Esq. immediate dispute with a foreign ship. ' * During the period of your different stays in Canton, did you ever wit- ness any disputes between the supracargoes, officers, and se nen of the East India Company's ships, and the Chinese government ? — Certainly no serious disputes. Have you heard of very serious disputes, threatening the existence of the imtercourse-between the English and the Chinese ? — Yes ; one very recently, in which tlie English attempted to take possession of Macao; in consequence of the expedition going to Macao, unprovided with an order from the government of Goa to give up quiet possession to them, re- presentations were made by the Portuguese government to the govern- ment of Canton, and the intercourse between the English and the Chinese was suspended for a time. You were understood to have stated, that tea might be procured in Batavia, to any extent, nearly as cheap as at Canton ?— If Batavia was to become a market where ships were to resort for the purchase of tea, I have no doubt, in course of time, any quantity of tea might be exported from thence. In the event of the trade to India being laid open to British merchants in ships of 350 tons and upwards, the trade in tea being entirely prohi- bited under the penalty of a confiscation of the ship and cargo, do you think it probable that any person would fit a British ship for the purpose of bringing tea from the eastern seas to Great Britain, or any port of Europe ? — I think such a speculation, under such circumstances, would be extremely hazardous ; but as the owners of ships are responsible for the conduct of their commanders, officers, and ship's company, it is pos- sible a small quantity might put them in danger of confiscation, though the original owner had no intention of smuggling. Do you think any person likely to fit out a vessel on purpose to convey such tea ? — There are adventurous spirits to be found, that will do any thing; for myself, as a man of property, I would not do it; it is im- possible for me to say it would not be done ; I would not do it with such a penalty hanging over me ; but there is no saying what desperate people might do. On 774 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE "Daniel Beetle, On the supposition that a desperate person were desirous of under- Esq. taking a smuggling operation in tea, is it at all probable, that he would 1 y — * employ a ship of 350 tons burthen and upwards, excluded from visiting China and liable to confiscation for having tea on board, rather than employ a neutral vessel of any burthen and not liable to the restriction with respect to visiting China? — I have already said, I would prefer em- ploying an American to employing a British ship upon such an adven- ture, which I think implies an answer to that question. You have mentioned, that it is possible depots of tea might be formed at Manilla in the event of a demand existing, do you suppose that any depots of that kind could be formed with any other view than smuggling them to this country? — Certainly not. Is it in the smallest degree probable, that persons sending vessels to those seas, supposing the penalties to exist that have been already stated, would not be active in procuring persons to command their ships who would take every means to prevent the introduction of teas on board them ? — No doubt it would be their duty, under such cir- cumstances, to take every means of preventing teas being introduced on board. Do not you suppose it would be the interest and inclination of every person, under these circumstances ? — Certainly. Then, under the arrangements which have been supposed, it is not likely, in your opinion, that any considerable demand for teas can exist, in those eastern islands ? — There certainly is no demand of that kind at present ; but it is impossible to say what there may be, if desperate people are found ready to enter into such a trade. Is the Committee right in understanding you to soy, that if a despe- rate man were to enter into such a trade it would be to his advantage, and that it is probable he would undertake the trade in a foreign and not in a British ship, which foreign ship could enter China and procure her tea without the necessity of going to any of the eastern islands? — I think that question is already answered, by my saying that if persons were to become inclined to smuggle, they would do it by the Americans in pre- ference to having recourse to such a mode. o And therefore that no demand would exist in the eastern islands ? — It is impossible for me to draw these sort of conclusions. h EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 775 Is it not probable, in your opinion, that the duties in the port of Canton Daniel Beale, would be raised on the export of teas in China junks, if found to in- E-q. crease ? I cannot answer that question. ! v — ' Are not the Russians at present excluded from the ports of China ? — The Russians are excluded from the port of Canton. Upon what grounds ? — The Chinese having been in the habit of trad- ing with them on the northern borders, and therefore they could not reconcile it to themselves that the Russians should be admitted to the port of Canton by sea. Are not the Danes also excluded, is there not some obstacle to their visiting China ? — I never heard that there was. Are not ships under the imperial flag excluded from China? — Any ship going to China under the imperial flag, I conceive, would meet with a considerable embarrassment, inconsequence of the debt existing now from the former imperial company (the Ostend Company) to some of the Chinese merchants, to Pu»n Kbaqua, particularly. Ts it not understood 'that the Americans are at present very conside- rably in debt to the Chinese Hong merchants ? — I do not know that they are, but it is very reasonable to suppose so, as they leave debts from, year to year. In the event of its being so, and of that debt not being paid, is it not very probable that the same obstructions would arise to American ships frequenting the port of Canton ? — No, in my opinion not; because they are debts due from individuals to individuals, and not from a company. Having stated that the late misunderstanding, between the English and the Chinese government at Canton arose from an expedition having been s^nt to Macao without an order from the government of Goa to receive an English garrison, are you of opinion, that such an order would have been sanctioned by the Chinese government r — i think eventually it might, but I -conceive it -a very fortunate circumstance for this country that it was not. State your reason for that opinion ? — From the restrictions imposed fey the Chinese upon the Portuguese, who, though they are in possession of "776 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Bra's, of Macao, cannot even repairs house without a licence from the Chinese Esq, government, they are completely in thecontrou! of the Chinese ; I think such circumstances would have brought about quarrels and disputes be- tween the English and the Chinese. You have stated that goods having the Company's mark have been received in China without examination as "to quantity or quality, ac- cording to the marks upon the bales or packages ; have you heard that the article of opium, sent from Bengal, lias latterly not met with that favourable reception from the Chinese ? — I cannot speak as to latterly ; but during my residence there, I was a considerable dealer in opium, and invariably an order to deliver a chest of opium to the Chinese, was always received by them, and the opium taken away without any inspection, in consequence of its bearing the Company's mark, and my assuring them it was of the description it purported to be. Is not opium a prohibited article by the Chinese government ? — Opium is a prohibited article by the Chinese government ; but, at the same time, it is perfectly well known that it is imported into China in large quan- tities, and the government officers derive considerable benefit from the smuggling of it; I believe the importation into China annually, of opium, by Portuguese and English ships, amounts to somewhere about 2,000 chests. At how much per chest ? — About 1,200 dollars a chest. Do you allude to opium, the manufacture of Bengal ? — Yes. Is there not a restriction on the part of the Company, against the importation of any other opium in China ? — I believe the Company restrict, generally, the exportation of opium to China; they do not al- low the commanders and officers of their ships to trade in opium ; there is a late regulation for that purpose, that arises from extraor- dinary care on the part of the Company to avoid embarrassment to their ships. You have stated, that you believe the natives of the eastern islands use cotton cloths, the manufacture of Bengal, for turbans and com- berbands ; in the event of such cloths being supplied lower from this country, do you not think that the natives would prefer those of the manufacture of Great Britain?— I do not think that any ship going from EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 777 from this country under such circumstances, having cloths only, trading Daniel Beak, to the eastern islands, would procure her returning cargo ; \ consider Ksq. opium and dollars to be essentially necessary fur that purpose. ' Are not the country ships secured by the Hong merchants, in the same manner as the Company's ships and others are ? — The coun- try ships are secured by the Hong merchants, who purchase their cargoes. Is not that security tantamount, in every respect, to the security of the Company's ships ? — The Hong merchant, v\ ho secures the ship, is merely responsible to the government for the duties on import and export of that ship, and the good conduct of the commander and ship's company. Are not the country ships, which go to China, placed under the orders and regulations of the Company's supracargoes there ? — The country ships arriving in China, immediately after their arrival receive certain instructions from the Company's supracargoes, to which they arc to attend. Can you, from your recollection, state the tenor of those regula- tions ? — The general tenor is admonitory as to their good conduct, to prevent their getting into any disputes or disturbances with the Chinese with respect to the disposal of the cargo, the Company's supracargoes have no controul. Are you aware of the covenants entered into by the owners of country ships with the government of India, by which they are bound to attend to all orders and regulations of the supracargoes at Canton ? — I believe such covenants exist. Have you heard that a penalty of double the value of the ship and cargo is attached to the breach of those covenants ? — I do not know the exact extent of the penalty ; but it may be to the amount mentioned in the question. In the event of a regulation being made by the supracargoes at Can- ton, that no country ship should receive on board teas, do you not think that such regulation would be effectual to prevent the export of teas from Canton by country ships ? — No doubt it may be rendered ; but that 5 G will 778 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Beak, will depend upon the disposition of the parties to comply with the Esq. covenants. v v 1 Is it usual to ship any considerable quantity of tea upon the coun- try ships for India, or only a small quantity for the use of the diffe- rent settlements in India ? — I have in my recollection a quantity of teas belonging to an American being shipped on board a country ship bound to Bombay ; and, I believe, from Bombay they were afterwards exported to America. Has this been a usual trade, or is it only a solitary instance to which you allude? — No doubt it is a solitary instance to which I allude ; but still it is evidence of the practicability of the exportation of teas from China ; and it shews also,, that Company's supracargoes take no cognizance of the shipment of teas on board country ships ; for there is no par- ticular register kept of the exports from China to the settlements in India; there is no doubt, regulations might be made to fit the case of exports of tea in country ships. You are no doubt aware, that there is at present no regulation to pre- vent the export of teas from China in country ships ? — 'There is not at presetit, to my knowledge, any regulation to prevent the export of any quantity of tea in a country ship. Do not you think, that in the event of such a regulation being made, with a penalty attached to the breach of it, such as before stated, of the forfeiture of double the value of ships and cargo, it would be effectual to prevent teas being carried to India for such purposes ? — I think it would. Is there not a regular account kept of all goods exported from Canton in the linguists' office ? — The linguists no doubt take an account of all goods exported, and on board of what ships ; but I believe it would be extremely difficult to have recourse to such documents, if they exist, after the goods are shipped off. Are not you of opinion that the Company's supracargoes in China, from their great influence with the government there, would be enabled to frame such regulations as* would effectually prevent any goods being shipped on board the country vessels, without being reported to them ? — If the question goes merely as to the influence of the Company's supracargoes being able to prevent the Chinese from exporting on particular ships, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 779 I should say not ; because they may always smuggle on board ships any Daniel Beak, thing they please; the prohibition must arise from the penalty inflicted Esq. upon the ship exporting. v * J Are you not of opinion, that if the Company's supracargoes were to require an account of all goods regularly shipped off from C lina, it would be delivered in by the linguists to the supracargoes? — The lin- guists, upon the requisition of the supracargoes, would give an account of every article shipped on board a particular ship, no doubt. Are you aware of a very considerable rise having taken place, of late years, in the prices of goods exported to India from China, such as sugar, tutenague, and raw silk ? — I have no doubt there may have been a consi- derable advance upon the articles mentioned. In case of disappointed views from legal commerce by any of the nu- merous vessels of 350 tons, from British out-ports, trading to the Eastern Archipelago, would the means of procuring teas, brought from other parts of China by Chinese junks at less charges than are paid at Canton, be easy, if disappointed commanders of those vessels could be tempted to embark in an illicit commerce ? — It is not at all likely that any considerable quantities of teas would be exported and de- posited in any particular place, unless there was a previous arrange- ment. Supposing this previous arrangement to have taken place, would the means of procuring teas from other parts of China than Canton at less charges than thore paid at Canton be easy, if disappointed commanders of those vessels could be tempted to embark in an illegal trade ? — I do not think that would be easy ; there must be a previous arrangement, and that previous arrangement would require great time ; and there must be a great capital embarked ; the question is so speculative, that I should prefer not answering it. Is not tin brought to Canton by the Chinese traders, and other persons, from the island of Banca ?— Considerable quantities of tin are imported annually by the Eastern traders from the Straits of Banca. Do you know pretty nearly, the relative prime cost and charges on which tin is brought from Great Britain, and what is brought from Banca ?— No; I cannot speak to that ; but it is much cheaper from Banca,. 5 G 2 generally 780 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Daniel Beak, generally speaking, and the quality is far preferable, being much more Esq. malleable and soft. Supposing the trade was opened, and a greater resort of private ships from England to take place, do you or do you not think that matter of itself would be likely to give umbrage to the Chinese government ? — From my experience, I should rather think the Chinese government would pre- fer the trade to China being carried on in the present mode rather than in any other, from the extreme regularity with which the business is at present conducted, from the high respectability, from the honour and probity with which their transactions are conducted by the present supra - cargoes. Do the Chinese government regard the supracargoes as having any ma- gisterial authority over Europeans, so as to resort to them in case of dispute, and consider them responsible? — The medium of communicaton between the Europeans and the Chinese government, is, generally speaking, the Hong merchants, and no doubt the chief supracargo is applied to in all cases of disturbance. You have stated, that some difficulties in trading would arise, if an im- perial ship was to arrive at Canton ? — I think, until the debt was liquidated there would be a difficulty, and tint difficulty would arise from the repre- sentation made by the creditors of that Company. Do you recollect a ship called the Etrusco having arrived in those seas ? — Yes. Under what flag was she ? — The flag of the Duke of Tuscany, to the best of my recollection ; there was a distinction which the Chinese perfectly understood between that ship and Imperial ships ; they never attempted to confound her with them. Did she always bear that flag ? — Always at the port of Canton. In any other part of the world ? — I can only speak from hearsay as to that ; I believe the ship that arrived at Canton, was not the original ship that sailed from Europe under Tuscan colours. Have you understood that there have been ever any complaints made against the commanders, officers, or crews ot the country ships at Canton, or has not their conduct been at all times peaceable and orderly ? — Gene- rally EAST-INDIA COMPANVS AFFAIRS. 781 rally sneaking, yes; but the great dispute between the English and Chi- Daniel Beale, nese upon the occasion of the gunner, which is in every body's recollection Es>q. who knows any thing of China, originated in a salute fired from a country » v ' ship. Having alluded to that unfortunate circumstance, was it not understood that the Chinese having lost his life upon the occasion of firing that salute, was entirely accidental ? — Entirely accidental, from the wadding of a gun. [The witness withdrew. Mr. JOSEPH RANKING was called in, and examined as follows: Mr. Grant.~\ Have you not dealt extensively in cotton piece-goods from ]^ r /d r- India? — 1 have, for more than twenty years. t , "V Can you state what is the ad valorem duty on piece-goods sold at the East-India House ? — The duty on the class called callicoes, is j£3. 6s. &d. per cent, upon importation ; and ir they are used for home consumption, there is a further duty of ,^68. 6s. 8d. per cent. ; there is another class called muslins, on which the duty on importation is 10 per cent.; and if they are used for home consumption, of ^£27. 6s. 8d. percent.; there is a third class, coloured goods, which are prohibited being used in this country, upon which there is a duty upon importation of <£3. 6s. 8d. per cent. ; they are only for exportation; this session of parliament there has been a new duty of 20 per cent, on the consolidated duties, which will make the duties on callicoes, on importation, amount to j[3. \6s. 8d. per cent, and if used for home consumption, j£l8. 6s. Hd. per cent. ; upon the muslins for home consumption, JOSI. 6s. bd., and the prohibited goods will be chargeable wich <£3. 16s. Sd. ; I am not quite certain what the consolidated duties on muslins are on importation ; I rather think it will make them about j£l2 per cent. In what manner is the amount of the ad valorem duties on goods of this description ascertained at the India House ? — It is chargeable on the amount the goods sell for at the East India Company's sales. The value of goods to pay duty is ascertained by the actual sale ? — Yes, by the actual sale at the East India Company's saleroom. When ad valorem duties are imposed on goods sold eLewhere than at sales 782 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr.J. Ranking sales of the Company, in what manner is the duty ascertained ? — 1 v- Tne merchant values his goods, and if the king's officer is satisfied with that valuation, he pays the duty accordingly ; but if the king's officer thinks the goods are undervalued, he has an option of taking the goods himself, and paying the amount at which the merchant values his goods. Is that the single or the chief security against the fraudulent valuation of the article by the importer ? — 1 believe there is no other. Do you conceive that it would be easy to set an accurate average value on piece-goods from India, in any other mode than by the actual sale of the article ? — I should think it would be nearly impracticable ; there is such a variety of classification, that I do not think persons would be found with sufficient judgment to know the value of different articles. Do the piece-goods apparently of the same quality, in point of fact, differ very greatly in value f — Not apparently of the same quality ; there are goods of the same denomination that differ very much in value ; for instance, the goods imported by the East- India Company are very superior, in general, to those imported by private traders ; the qualities are very much debased by the private traders in general, they are goods of the same denominations, and called by the same names ; it requiresjudges to know the difference. Can you at all state what difference of price you have known upon piece- goods of the same denomination, in the same sale ? — Goods of the same denomination are of various qualities ; I have known goods of the same denomination and the same quality, differ as much as from 5 to 10 per cent, in the course of the sale ; it very often happens in the course of a sale, orders come from abroad, and people want to purchase a greater quantity and there is more competition ; it drives up the prices very much. Can you state from your experience, whether such variations asyou have described are of frequent occurrence? — The variations are not very great, but tkey frequently occur to the extent of 5 per cent.; but I have known them go as far as 15 per cent, where there has been a great deal of com- petition ; it is not a frequent case by any means ; it occasionally occurs. The slighter differences of which you speak, are very frequent ? — Yes, they have occurred, and do in most sales. g posng that the trade in piece-goods for exportation were laid open to the out-ports of the United Kingdom, do you conceive, that the collec- tion EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS 783 ion of ad valorem duties upon the article could be conveniently effected ? Mr.J.Rauh'ni" — I think that would be almost impracticable, and that the London l ,. >° merchants would be labouring under a great disadvantage} they would be obliged to pay a duty upon the price at the East-India Company's sale, where people assemble in time of peace from most parts of Europe and Africa, and things are driven up to their full value ; if they were permitted to be valued at the out-ports, where persons could not detect fraud the merchants there would have a much greater advantage. Is it your opinion, that under the circumstances in question, the revenue might be defrauded to any considerable amount ? — I think it extremely probable that that would occur ; I do not think persons could be found competent to know the real value of those goods. Can you state what would be the general effect on the trade from India in piece-goods, of having private traders admitted to that trade? — As a dealer in piece-goods, I conceive, we should find our confidence very much shaken ; we should not be able to judge of the quantity that might be brought to sale at the East-India Company's periodical sales; the goods are all under one roof, we know the quantity in the market, and can act with confidence j but we could never tell, it private traders were acting in the out-ports, what quantity might be brought into the market, and we could not act with the same safety and confidence. On the suppositions before made, do you conceive it probable that any number of piece goods taken out of warehouses at the out-ports for the purpose of exportation, will be illicitly introduced in the home consump- tion r— I am of opinion that it would increase the facilities for smuggling very much ; the commissioners of the customs, some time ago, prohibited the white calicoes which are permitted to be consumed at home on hio-fi duties, being shipped at the out-ports and sent by land carriage : I suppose in consequence of their conceiving it would give a facility to smuggling. On the supposition that India piece-goods, in any great numbers, could be fraudulently introduced into the home consumption, what effect, in your apprehension, would be produced on the cotton fabrics of this coun- try ? — I think it would lessen the consumption of our own cotton fabrics if those cottons were fraudulently introduced. Can you state the comparative excellence of the coarser piece-o-oods from India, and similar cotton goods manufactured in this country ? I am of opinion that the East India goods, where a great weight of material is 7 k MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr J, Ranking, is required, are cheaper and better than those manufactured in this country, 1 ^- ' but that the m ddle classes are very much interfered with, or are surpassed even by the British manufactures of the middle qualities. Do the British goods of those descriptions wear as well as the Indian goods? — I suppose they do; I have not much experience of that, but I conceive thev do. You have stated, that on the supposition of the trade in piece-goods being extended to the out-ports, a considerable quantity of such goods might be smuggled back into this country for home consumption ; do you think that such illicit practices could be carried on profitably by the smug- glers, in spite of the risks and charges with which all attempts to evade the revenue laws are known to be attended r — I should think it might to a certain extent ; the duties are very high, the duties are prohibitory on those callicoes; if the duty was twenty per cent, or fortv per cent, less, it would still be very high, and I think many of those classes of goods would be consumed in this country. Do you know what is the difference between the prices per yard of British white calicoes from the manufacturer, and Indian white calicoes of nearly the same dimensions and quality ? — Comparing the goods sold at the East India Company's Bengal sale in March, with the prices of nearly similar goods of British manufacture, I should think, on an ave- rage, the India goods were from twenty to twenty-five per cent, dearer than the British goods are at present ; in many instances the difference is greater than even fifty per cent.; I could collect particular instances, but i have spoken of an average price when I say from twenty to twenty-five per cent. You have before spoken of the comparative merit of Indian and British piece goods, of the coarser and middling qualities ; can you state what is the comparative merit of such goods from the two countries, of the finest qualities ? — The very finest qualities of East India goods are decidedly superior, and cannot be imitated with success in this country; the goods of the manufacture of Dacca 1 particularly allude to. You have before stated, that the admission of the out-ports to a parti- cipation in the piece-goods trade would be inconvenient to the fair British consumers in the metropolis ? — Rather to the dealers, because those goods are principally export- d that we buy at the East India Company's sales; or to the importers, if we are to have the same liberty to im- port EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 785 port piece-goods which they have at the out-ports, which we should of Mr. /.Ranking. course have ; and we should be under a great disadvantage in having to * , J pay full duties, while they pay what they chuse, in iact, according to my opinion of the effect. Can you form any opinion what effect would be produced upon the foreign consumption of piece-goods, under the circumstances before described P-r-The foreigners who resort to the East India Company's sale, would suffer the same inconvenience we should who are buyers of those goods ; they would have their confidence shaken, they would not know how to act ; by the present system, we know what the East In- dia Company and private trade mean to bring forward at their sales, and we have them under one roof, and know how to regulate our purchases by the quantity and market, which we should not be so well informed of, if the goods were distributed among five or six out-ports ; we could not act with the same confidence. At what interval of time before the sales, do the Company give notice what goods they intend to put up ? — As soon as the Company receive the manifest from the ship, within a week from the arrival of the ship the Company publish an account of her cargo ; and we then dis- tribute that among our correspondents in various parts of the world, and receive orders fromthem before the sales. Do the Company state precisely of what species the goods are which they intend to put up at their sales ? — Yes, it is very accurately stated, as far as relates to the goods belonging to the Company ; those goods be- longing to individuals are stated in bulk ; so many bales of calicoes ; we do not know the sorts, and it would be difficult to describe them, because they are of a debased species of goods in general. Are not the goods intended to be put up, both those belonging to the Company and to private traders, previously exhibited for inspection? — « Yes, for a considerable period, perhaps for two months. Has not the foreign consumption of piece-goods been promoted by the effect of that regular course of proceeding, in regard to the sales of the Com- pany, which you have described ? — I should conceive it has been very much promoted by it. Are the foreign merchants in the habit of sending declarations of the 5 H goods 78(5 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr.J.Ranking. goods which are to be sold to their correspondents abroad ? — Yes, they < „, 1 are. Would this course of proceeding, with resp?ct to foreigners, be consistent with an arrangement which should admit the out-ports to a participation in the piece-goods' trade ? —As a dealer in piece-goods, I anticipate great inconvenience from that system being adopted ; it would be impossible for a foreigner to come here, and travel to Hull, and Glas- gow, and Liverpool, and various other ports ; I do not know to what ports this liberty may be extended, but it would distract his attention, and prevent his acting with the confidence with which he can now act. You assume, that the goods are to be sold at the out-ports by private Contract ? — Even if they were to be sold by public sale, the quantity might not be sufficient to draw people four hundred miles ; and they would not act with that confidence they can now act. Are you of opinion, that the circumstances you have described would materially derange the sales of piece goods by the East India Company? — I think they would. From your knowledge have not foreigners, receiving from their cor- respondents here declarations of the goods about to be put up at the sales of the Company, occasionally visited this country for the purpose of making their purchases in person? — In time of peace, I have seen more foreigners in the East India Company's sale room from the different parts of Europe, than there are persons in this committee room at present ; from Germany, Switzerland, Russia, Holland, and France. Can you say whether that circumstance has promoted the consumption of the manufactures of this country among foreigners ? — I think it has very much ; for those foreigners, when they come to England, have pur- chased large quantities of British manufactures. Do you speak from your experience ? — From my own dealings with them. (Examined by the Committee.) You are acquainted with the British manufactured goods ? — Yes, I am. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 78/ Do you find that the prices fluctuate very much iu the market ? — Con- Mr.J. lla#\hrg, siderabiy. ' > ' To what do you attribute that ? — To the state of the demand. You never attributed it to a greater importation of East India goods, did you? — No, never. Are not they used for the same purposes, those imported from the East, and those manufactured in this county ?— Yes, there are similar goods manufactured in this country, but the East India goods for the con- sumption of this country are liable to enormous duties ; the calicoes, for instance, are liable, besides the X3 6\ Scl. to a duty of <£68 6s. 8d. if they are taken out of the East India warehouses for home con- sumption. You are aware that the piece-goods are not intended to be consumed hi country ? — Certainly not. That you consider as the reason why the protecting duty was established? — I look upon it as a protecting duty to encourage our own manufactures. Then there would be no danger, provided the out-ports were open to East India goods ; from the circumstance of East India piece-goods being sold in the country ? — They would be subject to the same duties ; and I do not imagine any of them, or to any extent, could be consumed from this country, from the duty being so high. You were understood to say, that the revenue was in danger of suffer- ing from the duties not being so clearly ascertained in the country as in London, do you know any defect that would arise f.om the same system of an ad valorem duty being established there, as is here ? — I think the danger would be this, that the ad valorem duty would be levied by the merchant himself; I do not think a merchant would be able to be detected it he was disposed to commit fraud ; for he might value articles at 10y. a piece that would sell at the East India Company's sales at 15s. ; owing to competition, every thing fetches its utmost value, and every imposition might be practiced ; I think, even at a public sale, things might be col- lusive ; that the merchants might put up their goods, and buy them in themselves, and pay a smaller duty than they would in London, where people attend from all parts ot the earth. % H 2 Are 788 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr- J -Ranking. Are you not aware, that competition would prevail at the out- ports as —J well as in London ? — I am of opinion, there would not be a competition. Does that arise from the out-ports having but few traders in them ? — I should imagine the traders would be attracted to that place where they conceived the greatest assortment, which would be London. You are understood to have stated, that the great advantage arising from the East India system was, that foreigners were attracted by the great shew of goods at their periodical sales? — I did. If there was an open trade in this country, if the East India goods were exposed to sale in the way that the British goods are, both in London and the out-ports, are not you aware, that the gentlemen concerned in diffusing the manufactures of this country to every part of Europe, would not in- clude the East India manufactures in the orders that they received, and in the orders that they executed ? — I do not think they could act in that way with the goods that are imported by private traders, the qualities are so uncertain, and so much beneath the standard qualities of those goods ma- nufactured for the East India Company ; I do not think they could be so described that people could have a confidence to order them ; they could not buy them without a previous examination. Do not you know, that the goods imported from the east, vary very much in quality ? — Very much. Do not you know, that some of the East India goods, are full as low in quality as any manufacture in this country ? — Quite as low ; some of the goods imported by the private traders are very much debased in quality; they call them by the same denominations, but they are totally inferior to the Company's goods, which are made up to a certain standard, and a certain length and breadth ; we can buy those goods with very little exa- mination from their uniform quality, upon the Company's description of them, the Company's mark, the characters they give them; they are very ably classed ; the same denomination of goods are divided into letters, and we can write to our correspondents abroad, and state a particular article, letter A. B. C. or D. and the person can, with full 'confidence, order, if we tell him the mark, and say what class or letter he will have; that has not been done in the private trade. You mean by debasement, a species of goods of an inferior quality, adapted for the consumption of the lov/er class of people? — I mean, that they EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 789 they are very inferior goods, and sold at an inferior price ; goods of the Mr. J. Ranking* lowest price. v— — ^. J— ._j There is no other debasement, there is no dishonesty practised ? — No ; but we cannot depend upon the quality of those goods at all; we buy them with our eyes open ; we go and examine them previously ; but I would not write to Hull or Liverpool, and say buy 500 bales, or one bale of such a class, I must go down to examine them. Will not goods that are likely to be sold at the country ports be as open to inspection as they are when sold in London ? — I suppose they will be, or they will not find any buyers if they will not allow them to look at the goods. If the system was so much altered, as that foreigners were content to have their goods by order, have not the sellers of the goods a character to maintain, and would they not be careful in executing those orders so as to give satisfaction ?— I have no doubt every respectable merchant would act to the best of his judgment, and would give very faithful advice to his correspondents ; but there would be a great difficulty in describing those goods ; when the East India Company print a price-current, the goods are classed and put in letters, they are described from all the d'fferent facts, perhaps there will be twenty sorts of battaes ; we know by practice what they are, and we can correspond with people abroad, and give them those accounts which would be quite impracticable with private trade. Do not you know that goods, assuming the same name in the east, differ very much in quality } — Very much. If they differ very much in quality, there must be some manufacturers that make a debased article ? — There are the individual private traders ; I could elucidate what I am stating, by saying, at the East India Company's sales we give for the battaes manufactured at some manufactories, 12s., per- haps, to the East India Company, when we purchase battaes in the private trade, at from 7s. to Is. Qii, so that I mean to shew we could not fairly describe those goods. Are not you of opinion, that the goods imported from the east are some- times sold in large quantities, more than the usual quantity some years ? — Yes ; they lluctuate very much. Suppose three times the usual quantity were offered at their sales, would cot 790 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON TttE Mr. J. Ranking, not the prices be very much depressed?— Certainly ; I look upon it, the ^— —- , 'i price is regulated by the quantity of goods brought to market, and the state of the demand. "Would not that depression very much affect the home manufactures r — Those goods, I believe I explained, were all exported when the home manufactures are depressed; they are depressed ; they keep pace pretty much with each other ; the home manufactured goods have advanced, I believe I speak within compass, when I say twenty per cent, within the last few months ; and there has been a very trilling rise in the Company's goods, even after the sale. You attribute that to the East India goods being for exportation, and the goods made here being for home consumption ? — Yes. Are vou net of opinion, that under all the advantages stated by you, of ordering goods to be purchased at the Company's sales, and the disad- vantages which would attend ordering similar goods to be purchasedjat the out-ports, the port of London would always have the preference ? — I be- lieve I stated that I thought so, because there was a greater choice in the port of London; greater assortments of the East India Company's goods will also be sold in the port of London ; they are of a very respectable quality, and command attention of the buyers. Are you of opinion, therefore, that any material injury can arise to the interests, either of the Company or the port of London, from opening the trade to the out-ports ?~As a dealer in piece-goods, I am ot opinion, material confusion would be occasioned by it, and goods of bad qualities may sell at nominal low prices at the out-ports, and may have an influence upon the prices of goods sold at the East India Company's sales ; if those goods were all exposed to sale in London, they would find their level ; people would examine them and pay according to the quality ; there could be no misrepresentations then. Will not the value of the goods be estimated according to their quality? — I suppose they will, but the people at the out-ports, in general, are not very familiar with the qualities of those goods; and it would scarcely be worth the while of any extensive dealers to go for any trifling object several hundred miles. In the event of a foreign merchant sending an order to either of the out-ports, and being disappointed in the quality of the goods, is it probable that EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 791 that he would repeat that order ? — I should think, if it did not answer Mr. J. Ranking. his purpose, he would not send a second order. ' *» According to your reasoning, is it not therefore probable, that the whole of the trade, or the greatest part of it, would centre ultimately in the port of London ? — I am of opinion that it will centre in the port of London ; I speak to piece-goods. Do you conceive, that in Glasgow and in Liverpool, in the neighbour- hood of which there are cotton manufactories established, people would not be found equally skilled in Indian piece-goods as in the port of London, and equally judges of their value ? — I think they would have an opportu- nity of comparing them with similar goods manufactured in this country ; and they might certainly form a pretty correct opinion of their value, by comparing them with British articles ; merchants might certainly. [The Witness withdrew. [Adjourned to Thursday, Twelve o'Clock. Jovis, 13° die Maij, 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. Mr. ROBERT BROWN, was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Jackson.'] You are a wholesale dealer, I believe, in what are jj/ r _ j? f Brown. called piece-goods ? — I am. v. v i Describe to the Committee what articles you comprise under the deno- mination of piece-goods ? — By piece-goods, we understand every article manufactured in the loom. Describe the sort of piece-goods that you yourself deal in ; silk piece- goods ' 9 - MINUTES 0? EVIDENCE ON THE Mr> #• Broun, good: are manufactured in the loom? — Silk goods are piece-goods, cer- ' tainly. What are the piece-goods in which you deal ? — Both cotton piece goods and silk piece goods ; piece goods generally. Do goods of the same description frequently vary very much in price, at the same sale ? — They do occasionally. Do you mean that goods, of precisely the same quality, vary very much in price at the same sale ; or that goods apparently of the same quality, but not so in fact, vary in price ? — I mean, that goods of the same quality precisely, vary occasionally; in goods of the same denomination, there is, ot course, a great variation generally. Do goods of the same denomination vary very much in price at the same sale, according to the places that they come from, or the factories in which they are known to be made in India? — No ; the reason of it is, the fancy of the buyers more than the variation of the place from which they came, and a local demand arising from various circumstances, and frequently the competition between one buyer and another at the Com- pany's sales. Do you mean, that the effects of an open sale, and the emulation of purchasers, create this difference of price ?— I do. State about what per cent, that variation amounts to sometimes ? — I have known a variation in goods, of precisely the same quality, of from 15 to 20 per cent, at the same sale ; in goods of the same denomination, the variation is frequently 150 per cent.; I mean by that, that articlesthat come from India have a general denomination, as for instance, the article of mulmulls, one description of which sells from 19 to 20 shillings per piece, and another from seven to eight pounds a piece ; still they are goods of the same denomination. Do you impute the difference of 15 or 20 per cent, to the fact of consi- derable competition ? — To the fact of the competition at the East India Company's sales. To what duties are those piece-goods subject ?-^-There are various duties; they are divided into three classes. ■Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 7M Can you state the respective duties of the three ? — There is the article of Mr. Ii. Brawn muslins, which pays a duty of 10 per cent, on importation, and„£'26 13s. 4rf. ** when taken out of the warehouses for home consumption ; the article of calicoes pays a duty of j£3 6s. Sd. upon importation, and <£bi 6s. Bd. per cent, when taken out of the warehouse for home consumption ; co- loured and silk piece-goods pay a duty of j£S 6s. 8d. per cent on impor- tation, and being prohibited, are not allowed for home consumption ; on the payment of any duty, the new impost of 25 per cent, is to be add- ed, which, at present, we have not been called upon to pay ; it has had, therefore, no effect at present upon goods sold at the East India Company's sales. To what is it to be added ? — Upon the consolidated duties. The 25 per cent, applies to home consumption, as well as import ? — Yes ; but I believe it applies only to goods sold subsequent to the passing of the act. Is the amount of those high ad valorem duties strictly ascertained by the mode of the Company's sales ? — Most distinctly, and most clearly ; with- out a possibility of fraud. What checks do they seem to be under at those sales, which should induce this opinion ot yours, that there is scarcely a possibility of fraud ? — The goods being publicly sold at the East India Company's sales, the officers ot the customs attending, as well as officers of the East India Company, to take down the prices ; the import duties are paid by the East India Company themselves ; the duties on home consumption are paid by the merchant when he takes them out for the home trade. In fact, the Company, were it even so disposed, has no interest in de- frauding the revenue as to the high duties on home consumption? — They have nothing to do with them, I apprehend. On the contrary, their officers are assisting the revenue officers to prevent frauds of any kind ? — Most clearly. Are there any cases in which the duty upon those articles is determined by the declaration of the parties ? — There is, I believe, in the case of presents that come from the East Indies ; but only in those cases. 5 I At "Y~ 794 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. R. Brown. At present, all commodities of this description, whether public or private > adventures, come through the medium of the East India Company? — They do ; whether imported by the East India Company on their own ac- count, or imported bv the private traders, they must be sold at the sales of the East India Company, and the duties ascertained in the way I have stated. They are all subject to the same degree of security you have described, as to the safety of the revenue ? — They certainly are. You have been in trade for a good many years? — Yes ; twenty-seven years I have been in that particular branch of trade. Exclusively in the wholesale line ? — I have. According to the best of your judgment, can you state to the Com- mittee, whether tho-e high duties could be collected safely to the public through any other medium than a public sale? — I think it would be im- practicable. State why you think it would be impracticable? — From the very great variety of the sorts, and the variation in quality, as well as in the de- mand ; so much so, that I think if valuations were made at different places, we skould invariably find different valuations, according to local circumstances ; we should have goods valued at one port at one price, and at another port at prices extremely different. What would occasion thvs difference of valuation at different out-ports ; aTe you considering the circumstances of a public sale at the out-ports, when you suppose that likely to take place ; or, when you speak of this great variation taking place, have you in contemplation the declaration of the merchant as to the value of the thing ? — That was the first impres- sion ; but whether it was so, or by a public sale at the out-ports, there would, I conceive, be a very great variation in-the prices at which the duties were collected. Supposing, that instead of those duties being thus ascertained at public salts in London, their amount were to depend upon the declaration of the party ; according to your judgment, as a merchant and trader, do you think that mode of ascertaining duties of such magnitude, by the decla- ration of the party, would be a safe one for the public as to revenue ? — I tuink it would be very much otherwise. State EAST-INDIA. COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 79 5 State why you think it would be otherwise ? — From the various and Mr R lirow. precarious nature of the goads depending so much upon the demand of l ^ / the buyers, as well as the opportunity it would give to the importer to make his valuation so particularly low, if the plan at present proposed was adopted ; and 1 do not know, in the case ot se'zure, what the offi- cers would do with those goods that are intended merely for exportation. Does it not require great skill ar.d long experience to ascertain the value of such commodities within, perhaps, many pounds per cent ? — It does so. How much might men of ordinary judrment, such as the officers, for instance, vary in opinion as between themselves and practised judges like yourself, upon the same article ? — It is impossible to define it exactly ; but even among the best judges, a variation wdl take place <>i from to to i5 percent.; men who are constantly in the habit of it; we may therefore very fairly say that officers who are not in that practice, would very much exceed that variation made by professional men. Generally speaking, could the officers tell upon such articles within from 25 to 30 per cent, whether the declaration was a true or a false one ? — I should doubt myself very much, whether they could tell within i5 to 30 per cent., particularly in the finer description of goods. Supposing that public sales were to take place at the out- ports, do you think that mode would be as s-ecure to the revenue as the public sales here are ? — I should think decidedly not; because it is not probable there would be the same competition among buyers at a small sale where there is but a very small quantity of goods that would induce a variety of buyers to attend, as there is in the sales of the East India Company wh ch, fiom their magnitude, draw buyers fro;r> every quarter of Europe ; and from tne amount of goods sold by the East India Company, it is almost impossible for a combination to be formed to injure the sale prices. Do you mean, that from the magnitude of the Company's sales, and the great degree of emulation that prevails at them, artificial purchases for the sake of keeping down the price, and so to lower the duty, never find their way into practice in the Company's sales? — I think such things never are practised. Do you think that one consequence of this comparatively small degree of competition at the out-ports would be, that the articles would be sold lower at them than they are here ? — 1 do. 5 I 2 Bes.des ?96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. R Brown. Besides the evil of government losing so mu:h duty, what effect would V V that have upon the Company's sales ? — In time, the efFect would be the lowering the price in some degree at the East India Company's sales, though I do not fear that the prices at the Company's sales would be at any time so low as at the out-ports. Do you mean, from the great attention the Company pay to constantly having the most superior articles ? — I mean not ihatalone, but from the resort of the great number of buyers to the sales in London, which their magnitude makes it an object to them to attend. If the out-ports were at liberty to import those piece-goods, are you apprehensive that any evil might arise from their being shipped outwards, under pretence of re-exportation, and being smuggled into the country again ? — I think the thing is very probable ; sometime since, we had an opportunity of sending to the out-ports white piece-gocds as well as coloured piece goods for expoitation ; that order was rescinded about eighteen months past, and now coloured piece goods only are allowed to be sent to the out-ports for exportation, which, from being a marked article, and prohibited for home consumption, are seizable wherever they are found. When you send those coloured piece-goods to the out-ports, do you send them by sea or land-carriage ? — By the canals, or by land. Such piece goods as you are now allowed to send to the out-ports for the purpose of exportation, are you allowed to send them to the out-ports by sea ? — I believe the law would allow it, but it is not the practice. You are now prohibited from sending the white piece-goods even to the out-ports, for the purposes of exportation ? — We are prohibited from sending the white piece goods from London to the out-ports, the expor- tation of white piece goods is directed to be made, by their being sent direct from the warehouse of the East India Company to the ship on which they are to be exported. What have you understood always to be the grounds and cause of this prohibition that took place a year and a half ago, that no • hite piece- goods should be sent to the out-ports for the purposes of exportation ? — 1 conceive it to be from the risk of their being so smuggled ; and if they should be smuggled, not having paid the heavy duties for home con- sumption, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 797 sumption, they would interfere in a certain degree with the Briiish ma- Mr. R Br won, nufactures. ^ ; Would the coloured piece-goods interfere with the British manufac- tures, if they were smuggled in they are liable to seizure wherever they are found ? — Yes, wherever they are found in any part of Great Britain ; but white piece goods not being liable to seizure, it would not be so easy to say whether they had been smuggled or had paid the home con- sumption duties, by coloured piece-goods; I mean, not coloured alone, but coloured and silk, both of which are prohibited. Those articles being subject to seizure wherever found, the revenue would be so far safe in your opinion ; but do you imagine the white piece-goods might be smuggled in again after a pretence of exportation, without their being subject to discovery when once got into circulation ? — With respect to coloured and silk piece-goods, no duties are paid on them for home consumption, and consequently the revenue is not mate- rially injured, provided they are smuggled in. The manufacturer of those articles in this country would be injured to a certain extent, but not the revenue; for the import duty being paid, there is no further claim on the part of the Crown ; white piece goods pay an extremely heavy duty for home consumption, consequently, if they were smuggled, the revenue would be materially injured, and the manufacturer would be also materially injured ; for they would, without the duty, materially interfere with the British manufacturer ; I conceive the duty on white piece goods to be a protecting duty to the British manufacturer. How much is the duty upon those particular kind of goods, the white piece goods ? — ,£68. (5s 8d. per cent, for the home consumption, and that is independent of the new duty of 25 per cent. That is the description of goods which you, a wholesale dealer in Lon- don, arc prohibited from sending to the out ports, for fear they should find their way into home consumption ? — Those are the description of goods ; but not those goods alone, muslins and nankeens also which pay a duty for home consumption of £J6. \2s. Ad. per cent.; I do not allude to the 25 per cent, upon them, because it has had no effect upon them yet. Are you prohibited sending those two latter articles to the out-ports ? — We are. Is 7Q8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON- THE Mr. R. Brorvv. Is the manufacture of India very much preferred to the manufacture of — — : x : ' this country in regard to those piece-goods ? — In the finer desciiptions it may be ; in the middling and lower qualities, I think the British manu« factures really in some cases surpass them, and in many, equal them. Is there a material difference sometimes in the real value between the Indian manufactures and the British manufactures, when the appearance of the article is nearly the same ? — In goods sold for exportation, I have known East India manufactured goods of an ordinary qualwy sold at from 50 to 6o per cent, less, even in London, than the same article can be pur- chased for from the British manufacturer: I mean by the same article, the same description of goods in point of breadth and quality. The East India article is sometimes sold from 50 to 60 per cent, lower than the British made article ?— Yes. The quality and measure being as nearly the same as possible ? — Yes, as nearly similar as possible. Explain how you apprehend that to happen ?— I can only account for it from the want of a general demand for the East India manufactured goods of the description I have mentioned for the Continent ; the British manufactured goods are saleable throughout every part of the United Kingdom, as well as for the Continent, and the Eist- India manufactured goods, in consequence of the extiemely hv avy duty, would come dearer in the home market when the duty was paid upon then than the British manufacture j but without the duty they are materially lower. The British manufacturer saves this immense duty to which the East- India article is subject? —He is not liable to any duty, of course. Is the heavy duty paid upon the exportation of the Indian article?— No ; the goods sold at the East-India Company's sales are purchased with the option to the buyer to use them for home consumption or exportation, as he may find it most to his interest; the goods to which I have been par- ticularly alluding, are seldom or ever used for home consumption in con- sequence of that heavy duly, which is in fact prohibitory, but they are exported free of duty: the import duty, which we call the warehousing du'-y, is paid ; but there is no duty paid when they arc taken out of the ware- house for exportation. How does the purchaser get them into his possession without paying the duty ? — EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 799 duty ? — The goods I allude to are never taken out of the warehouse for Mr. R. Brown- home consumption ; for if they were, they could not be exported after pay- v_ _ j ing that heavy duty (no drawback being allowed), consequently the buyer must make his election before he removes them, either to pay the duty or to export them, as he finds it most to his interest. If he means to export them, he leaves them in the warehouse ? — Yes. Or, if he means them for home consumption, he may leave them there till he is ready to pay the duty ? — Yes. Supposing the import trade of India piece-goods to be opened to the pout-orts, referring to that description of piece-goods which you are pro- hibited sending to the out-ports, from the fear of their making their way into the home consumption, do you apprehend any mischief might arise to the British manufacturer from such privilege of universal importation at the out-ports ; and if so, state what it is ? — I think there would be a very great risk of it ; and if those goods could, by any contrivance of the pro- prietor, be introduced into the home consumption trade, they must most materially affect the British manufacturer ; and one particular reason which induces me to apprehend the danger, is, that the buyers and the pro- prietors of goods at the out-ports would be a completely different class to the buyers and importers of those goods in the port of London ; for, if the importers of those goods at the out-ports did not meet with a ready market for them, in the natural course of trade, they would endeavour to make the best of those goods, either by exporting them on their own account, or by other means, which might turn the goods to a more beneficial account. Supposing this general license of import to the out-ports, and that they might sell when they pleased, and in what quantities they pleased, what effect do you suppose such a circumstance as that would have upon the regular sales of the East-India Company? — I think it would be almost impossible to preserve that steadiness and regularity which is at present adopted in the East-India Company's sales. Do you think that this variety as to place of sale and time of sale would particularly derange and disorder the great sales of the East-India Company ? — 1 think it would. Do you happen to know whereabouts the amount of any one of the Company's sales of piece-goods may have been? — I think the last sale was something about one million sterling. At 800 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. B. Brown. At one sale ? — Yes, at one sale of piece-goods, We have generally two sales in the course of the year ; the one we call the March sale, and the other the September sale. All the goods sold from March to September, come under the denomination of the March sale, and all the goods sold trom September to March, come under the denomination of the September sale. Do you think that this proposed license as to time and place, would not only thus derange the Company's settled sales, but would materially dis- tract and inconvenience the different orders of purchasers, including the dealers ? — I think they would very much so ; for I am of opinion, that it will not be practicable for foreigners to attend small sales at the various out-ports; whereas, when they attend the sales of the East-India Com- pany, they come at stated and certain periods ; they have notice of the period for three or four months prior to the sales taking place, and they are enabled to make their arrangements accordingly. Describe the nature of that notice which is thus given to foreigners of the approaching sale of the East-India Company ? — About three months prior to the sale, the East- India Company issue a declaration of the kinds, qualities, and description of goods they mean to sell, fixing the day of sale, and the period of prompt, which is the day of payment. Does such description advertise any marks at the same time, that such and such lots will be put up of such and such marks r — The declaration by the East-India Company does not include the marks and descriotions, but a facility is given to the brokers who attend the sales of the East-India Company, to make themselves acquainted with the marks and different de- scriptions ot the goods intended to be sold ; and those descriptions of the broker are the descriptions generally sent abroad, in addition to the general description given by the East-India Company. Whether the foreign merchant is apprized of those marks himself, or through his broker, are they such as to convey a precise definition and idea of the quality and nature of the article ? — The goods imported by the East- India Company are in general so correspondent, so exact to the same de» scriptions ot goods of former sales, that a man who resides abroad is enabled to torm a very accurate judgment of the goods by the descriptions or de- clarations sent to him by the foreign merchant; so that if it does not suit his convenience to attend the public sales of the Company, he is enabled at all times to send his orders. Has the East India Company during your twenty-five years experience, observed such uniform good faith, that those marks and descriptions and declarations E\ST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 801 declarations are implicitly relied upon and confided in by the foreign Mr. R Brown. merchant? — They have; occasionally the gmds may vary a little, but 5 v i most unquestionally such a gaard is kept upon the fabric of the goods in India, that they attempt to improve, rather than deteriorate the quality. Can vou imagine any mode of private sale at the out-ports, or other mediums, than that of the East-India Company, that could inspire the same degree of confidence in foreigners ; any description of private sale whatever ? — I cannot fancy that any description of private sale could give the same confidence to the buyer that the descriptions issued by the East- India Company and the brokers convey ; for my own part, I should not be a purchaser of any goods at a distance from London, by any descrip- tion that could be given of them ; it would be indispensably necessary for me to attend upon the spot myself, and to examine strictly and closely the goods. You mean that this general liberty of import would probably occasion an import of articles of such a description as would call for a close personal inspection before you venture to purchase ? — I do ; and the reason of my supposing so is, the description of goods imported occasionally by the mer- chants residing in India, and officers of the Company's ships, which are in every sense so inferior to the same description of goods imported by the East India Company, that it is impossible to be a purchaser of them, without examining very minutely every bale ; whereas, in many goods imported by the East India Company, the sample of five pieces is the sample of ten, fifteen, or fifty bales, as the case may be. As far as your experience has gone, have importations, generally speak- ing, that have not been the immediate importations of the East India Company, consisted of comparatively inferior articles, although of the same denomination ? — They have. Do you apprehend that this might take place in any material degree ider such an universal licence of import from India to the out-ports ? — I think it would be almost invariably the case. un Supposing such importations, now or hereafter, to consist of inferior articles, what effect do you apprehend that an encreased importation of the inferior article might have upon the general trade of the country in such articles ? — 1 think, if a very considerable quantity of those articles, of an inferior sort, were to be imported to a spot where; the foreign merchant did not attend, it would be almost impossible to sell them ; and in all 5 K probability. 80-2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. U. Brown, probability, the importer would be under the necessity of exporting tb^m i. Y ' on his own account. Supposing that, by any means, any material quantity of those inferior articles were to get into the home consumption, would there be danger of its inspiring disgust, and inducing a forbearance of the ai tides of that denomination in any materia! degree, would it put the thingout of fashion in any degree? — 't might, in some degree, certainly ; biu I do not appre- hend the danger would be very great in those respects, unless the articles were sold at the out ports at so low a rate, that the home consumption duty could be afforded to be paid upon them ; I have known instances, when, from the general depression of the market for the Continent, we have been enabled to pay the high home consumption duty of i 68 (is. 8d per cent, and have been enabled to sell the article for home consumption. Supposing by this, or any other means, a material influx of an inferior article, say muslins if you please, were to find their way into the home consumption, would not it endanger the general tase for, and adoption of, that article among persons of affluence and fashion ? — I think it would, in a certain deg ee, but it must be observed, that pei ons of affluence and fashion, want only the finer description of goods that come from India, and not the common sorts, to which the question refers; in fact, there are very few of the common description of goods that c .me ftom India, that are used in any degree whatever in the market of Great Britain; they are almost altogether supplanted by the use of British manufactured goods. At present you are understood to say, that the magnitude of the Com- pany's sales, and its vast assortment, induces a considerable number of foreigners to come over to attend those sales in person ? — It is so, at all times when there is free access from the Continent. Supposing the same quantity of imports as come now to London, to be divided between London and the out-ports, would the inducement to foreigners to come in person be the same ? — If they could depend upon the sales being at times equally convenient to them ; I do not see any material difference it would make to them, unless it was the expense and trouble of dancing over the various parts of the kingdom. That is, supposing uniform public sales ? — Just so. If EAST- INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 803 If it were to become necessary for the safety of the revenue, under the circumstances of this licence of importation to the out-ports, to change the dutus upon those various articles from an ad valorem, to a rated duty; looking to their great variety of character and price, do you suppose such a change could be easily effected r — Such change, I apprehend, would infallibly prevent any thing of a middling and low price being imported fr.-.m India, and it would be materially in favour of the finer descripti ns of goods imported from India, and which, of course, would pay a less duty than they now pay. Do you mean, that the prices of one denomination r.re so various, that a rated duty would press so hard upon the low, as almost to amount to their prohibition, while the fine only could meet that sort of duty ? — That is the impression I wish to convey. You have stated it to be the practice of the brokers to send the marks in their advices to their correspondents which they gain from the India House, in which marks you have been understood to have said, very implicit confidence is placed; is not the confidence you have described, a confidence placed in the East India Company itself, rather than in the personal character of the broker who sends the mark ? — Certainly ; for the brokers know nothing but what they obtain from the East India Com- pany; they have no opportunity of examining the goods; they merely take the account from the invoices of the East India Company. If the brokers were to say that a merchant, A, B, at an out-port, has so many bales of muslin, it does not become a question between the integrity of the broker at Liverpool and the broker at London, but between the East India Company and the importer at the out-port? — The question of integrity would be between the East India Company and the person in India who made out the invoices for the private trader importing to the out poit. (Examined by the Committee.) The goods to which you allude, when you state that they have been sold 50 or 60 per cent, under the goods manufactured in this country, are the white calicoes ? — Yes. Do you imagine they could be made in India so as to be profitably sold in this country 50 or 60 per cent, below what the same description uf 5 K 2 goods 804 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. R. Brotcn. goods could be manufactured for at the same period in this country? — I I y, > am not exactly informed of the cost of the goods in India, but to the best of my belief, the goods to which I alluded are sold without a loss, at the prices mentioned ; I do not think there is any great profit upon them. From your general acquaintance with the prices of piece-goods in this country, do you conceive that any profit has accrued to the importer, from the importation of those goods for the last two or three years ? I believe for the last two or three years the East India Company have made a profit upon their imports ; foui or five years ago they certainly sustained a considerable loss, and with respect to the private trader, who does not purchase goods in India upon so good terms as the East india Company, he has sustained a very material loss, which has, in a very great degree, reduced the importations by the private traders to a very insignificant amount. At the period the East India Company, according to your judg- ment, did sustain a loss upon the importation of piece goods to this country, was their importation materially less than it had been when a profit was obtained in former years? — The East India Com- pany continue their importations upon a general uniform principle ; the goods are put up at certain prices : if the buyers cannot afford to give those prices, they remain over till the ensuing sale ; they ae then exposed again, and the same result will take place if the buyers cannot afford to give those prices ; when I say the same result, I mean their being left over for an ensuing sale. Of course you do not suppose that any loss arises to the Company from the exhibiting their goods for sale, but from a sale actually effected ; you were understood to say that the loss accrued to the Company from the goods actually sold ? — The loss must arise from the goods actually sold ; but if those goods are put up at the protecting price, and part only are sold, and a part remain over, the loss upon the part that is sold is the loss to which 1 particulariy allude. During the period at which the Company did sustain that loss in sale, was the importation from India on the Company's account materially diminished ? — When the Company found that their goods did not sell tor a profit, they reduced their importations, and by that reduction, and the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 803 the opening of the Continental trade, in a certain degree, the prices have Mr. R. Brown, increased. v*. Is the Committee to understand, that according to your opinion, the upset price, or protecting price, established by the Company at their sales, is formed upon any calculation of profit or loss, or rather, according to what they conceive the buyers are likely to pay?— In general, I apprehend, it is according to what they suppose the buyers can anord to pay. Then it does not necessarily follow that it is a protecting price, so as to protect them from loss ? — No, not so as to protect them from loss. Explain upon what grounds you conceive the East-India Company can profitably have been able to import East-India piece-goods tor the last two or three years ? — I am not able to answer that precisely, not having myself imported from India. Then your opinion is more from hearsay than any actual remark made by yourself? — From the general information we receive from the ware- house keeper and others who h,.ve access to the invoices; the buyeia of the goods have not access to the invoices. Have the private investments consisted much of piece goods in the course of the last two or three years ? — I think I mentioned that the import of piece goods in private trade has nearly ceased, in consequence of its being an unprofitable trade to the importers. If it is evident, in consequence of a falling off of the trade, that the trade is no longer profitable to private persons, upon what ground do you conceive that it is profitable to the Company ? — The East-Lidia Company, I understand, have their own manufactories; they have the weavers in their own employ, and they are enabled by advances made to those weavers, to obtain goods upon much cheaper terms than a private trader could buy them in the markets of Bengal, Madras or Bombay. Then you conceive that the money of a private individual who may resort to India for the purchase of East-India piece-goods, will not pro- cure to him investments at as cheap a rate as the money uf the Company will do that under the present regulations ? — The Company seldom or ever make their purchases in the markets; they, 1 unceistand, make advances to the weavers who manufacture solely and expressly for the East- 806 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. N. Brown, East-India Company ; the goods purchased by the private trader will not 1 -v ' be sold to him unless he pays a further profit to the manufacturer beyond what ihc East-India Company pay. Is the Committee to understand, that you have stated in your answers an opinion extremely favourable to the present mode of selling goods by public sale? — I think no other mode could be adopted that would so completely answer the purpose, both of the East-India Company and the importer of piece-goods from India in private trade ; and were I an im- porter of goods trom India, I should give a decided preference to their being sold at the public sales of the East India Company, to any private sales, or by private contract, or public sales elsewhere. Are you aware of the amount of cotton piece-goods sold in this country by private sale, the manufacture of this country ? — No ; I cannot attempt to say ; it is very large. Have you any doubt it amounts to more than twenty millions ? — I think it is very probable. Are you a dealer in British piece-goods also ? — Yes, I am. Have you any doubt that it amounts to upwards of fifteen millions ? — I think it is verv probable it may be a good deal more than fifteen, or even twenty millions. Are you aware of any marks established by different manufacturers of cotton piece-goods, by which those qualities are as regularly sold as any other goods whatever, and the denomination established and known in foreign markets, as well as in England, upon the faith of the marks ? — I think I am : in goods manufactured for us at Manchester, by a descrip- tion either by mark, letter, or number, we know the same goods ; and can depend, when in the hands of a respectable man, upon having the same goods, if we send an order, without looking at them ourselves. Are not the manufacture of Mr. Horrocks, of Preston (to take one instance), perfectly known at home and abroad, by the marks affixed to them ? — I believe they a_re. If British manufactured goods were to be wrongly described, or prove not suitable to the sample when sold by private sale, does it not consist with EAST-INDIA COMPANYS AFFAIRS. 807 with your knowledge, that the purchaser will exercise his right of rejecting Mr. E. Broicr.. those goods ? — I think he would unquestionably do so. L — — y ' Would not the same right of rejection exist in the event of a private- sale of East India goods ? — I think it is possible it might, as far as might relate between one merchant and the other. Is there any right of rejection of goods purchased at the public sales of the Company, which may accidentally turn out not just equal in every piece to the samples exhibited ? — There is no right of rejection ; because that is one of the articles in the declaration of sales of the East-India Company, that the goods are to be taken in the state in which they are found. Can you, of your own knowledge, say upon what principles the Directors of the East-India Company determine the upset prices of piece- goods ? - I cannot. [The witness withdrew. Mr. EDMUND LARKEN was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Adam.] You are a tea broker ? — Yes, I am. Mr. Larkcu. Have you been all your life accustomed to examine tea ? — I have been thirty years accustomed to it. Were you engaged to go to China at any time to assist in inspecting teas? — Yes, I was, by the East-India Company, in the year 1803. You returned from thence in the year 1808, did you not ?— I did ; I was four years in China. Ever since, you have been employed as a tea broker, and still carry on that business? — No ; I had not made up my mind at first, whethtr I should return again to China ; I remained here in the Company's service two years longer ; I was very unwell, and the Company gave me liberty to remain a season or so. Are you perfectly acquainted with the trade, and the mode of carrying it on ? — I am. Have »^» 808 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr, E. I arfan. Have the Company's supracargoes in China the first offer of all teas ?— <■ v ' I think they have, inasmuch as they make very large contracts with the merchants the year before it is necessary to ship the teas ; for at the sailing of the fleet of this year, they enter into a new contract for the teas for the next season, and as the merchants are paid for those teas according to their respective qualities, they are very anxious to tender the best they have, in order to get an advance of the highest price upon it; they, therefore, send in musters of a great deal more tea than the Company want, for the express purpose of getting the best prices. I have frequently examined twice as much tea of some kinds, or very nearly so, as the Company wanted for their investment ; therefore I judge from that, we have the refusal of the market. Have the Company by that means, the selection of the best teas ? — No doubt they have ; the merchants send one chest as a representative of a chop of tea. The Americans, or other dealers, must take the second rate? — The Americans and other nations, such as the Swedes, the Danes, and while I was in China, there were two Russian ships arrived there. All of them have the second rate ? — They have. Are teas divided into general classes first, and then afterwards into particular denominations ? — Yes, there are in the article of congou tea, as many as a dozen classes; all of which are valuable, more or less, accord- ing to their different qualities, beginning from very ordinary, up to good. The general classes are known by black and green ? — Yes. Into what subdivisions is the black divided ? — One kind of tea, the congou, into twelve. There are other classes of black tea besides the congou ? — We put all the different sorts of tea into classes; bohea tea, the most common tea, we do not class so very exactly as we do the others ; but there are three or four classes of that kind of tea. Look at that book [handing a book to the witness] ; that is the East- India Company's sale book, is it not ? — It is a book published by the tea- brokers from the Company's catalogue, with their remarks upon the qualities of every chest of tea the Company sell ; in examining the tea almost every sense is employed, more or less. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 839 Can you, upon looking at that book, state with more particularity the Mr. E. Larkcn. nature of the teas ? — Perhaps in this book there are not so many classifi- '■ v ' cations as I made use of in China, but there are a number of different sort of characters, by the different shops or breaks ; there is a diffeience in this very book in the price of Congou tea of Is. a pound, one part contains Congous of an ordinary quality which sold at the Company's sales at 2s. Q^d., and there are others of so much better quality as to produce 3s. lOd. At the Company's sales are the teas ranked according to their different qualities, and set up accordingly ? — The Company put up their Boheas at a certain price, and their Congous at a certain price ; their Boheas I think at Is. Qd. a pound, and the Congous from Is. 8d. to 2s. id. Are they divided into good, middling, ordinary ; good, midding, flaggy, woody, dusty ? — Yes, and many others. Have each of those qualities a different value ? — Certainly. Can any person distinguish easily between the qualities, except a person used to, and expert in that business ? — I should think not, certainly. Does it require particular attention on the part of a person accustomed to the business, to distinguish those different qualities ? — A person must be in the business a considerable length of time before he can be a judge of teas. Does it require minute examination ? — It does, very minute examination. By the eye, the smell, and the touch ? — Yes. And even by the sound ? — Yes. By the crumbling in the hand ? — Yes. By the crackling in the hand ? — Yes, by the noise of the pressure. Likewise by the taste ? — Particularly by the taste. When those qualities are ascertained, they have certain values put upon them ? — Yes, they have. 5 L Does *v 810 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. E. Lakcn. Does the value of Congou tea vary, and can you state to the Committee j how much it varies ; whether from 2*\ 8^. to 5s. Qd. a pound ? — It does. Does the Hyson tea vary in the same manner ? — The Hyson tea varies fully as much, indeed more ; Hyson teas' we buy from As. 7d. to 6s; according to their quality* Do you conceive that it would be possible to apply a rated duty in imposing the duties upon teas, so as to produce the same effect as an ad valorem duty} — No, I should think not ; because I think Bohea tea could not bear so high a duty as the more valuable tea5, or the finer sort: You conceive it would be difficult to apply rated duties to the-sale of the teas ? — I should think it very difficult, indeed. The ad valorem duty is ascertained at what the teas actually sell for at the Company's sale? — Yes, the lower Boheas are generally consumed by the lower classes, and they would pay the same duties as those consumed by the higher classes ; I think the present is by far the best mode of levying theduty. In what manner are the Company's teas put up, and at what biddings are they knocked down to the purchasers? — They are put up at certain prices, beginning with Bohea tea at Is. Qd. ; the advance is one farthing a pound, therefore any person who chooses to bid a farthing upon the upset price, may have the lot, provided nobody bids higher ; the advance con- tinues at one farthing, till the price rises to 3s. Ad. ; the advance is then a halfpenny a pound. When tea is put up at- a certain price, if there is a bidding upon it to the extent of one farthing per pound, and there is no farther bidding, that lot is knocked down to the buyer at that price ? — Certainly. That is, at the upset price, and one farthing ? — Certainly. After the bidding of one farthing, supposing there is a further bidding, at what further price is that bidding? — At one farthing till it comes to &s. Ad , after which it is one halfpenny instead of a farthing. You know, that by the Act of Parliament, the tea put up by the Com- pany is put up at a profit not exceeding a certain sum beyond the prime eos-t and charges ? — So I have understood. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 811 Do you know, in point of fact", at what the Company do put up their Mr. E. Larkcn. tea ?— I know the putting up price of the tea, but I do not knuw whether *■ there is any profit attached to it ; I should suppose there was. Can you state, from the information and knowledge you have acquired during your residence in China, whether, in point of fact, the Americans buy in China a quality of tea inferior to that which the Company buy ? — I am convinced, in my own mind, that their teas are inferior to the Com- pany's teas. Do you know whether they buy inferior Congou particularly ?— I do not know particularly that they buy inferior Congou ; but it must be inferior, if we have the preference which we have. Do you know what the current prices of Congou have been at New York lately ? — No ; I do not. Supposing the current price at New York has been tenpence halfpenny per pound ? — I should think it would cost full that money in China at the cheapest rate of Congou tea, the lowest description of tea. If the current price of New York has been tenpence halfpenny per pound, does that establish to your satisfaction, that they must have pur- chased teas of the lowest description in China ? — Most assuredly. (Examined by the Committee.) When you examined tea in China for the Company, you say they used to send you one chest as a sample of the chop ? — Yes. Supposing )ou approved of that, was the whole chop taken upon the faith of that approval ? — Not in the first instance ; that muster chest is compared with the whole of the chop, a chop consisting of from 150 to 1,200 chests ; they are supposed to be of the same quality, and if ap- proved, the price is given accordingly : at the time of viewing the whole chop, that muster chest is taken down to the Hong merchants' warehouse, where it is opened, and where I used to examine five .chests in every hundred chests ; if the chop contained a thousand chests, I opened fifty, taking them as it happened, a chest here and a chest there ; the whole of the chests were there ; and all those fifty chests were turned out into as many cases made on purpose, and I compared the muster chest with the fifty, and if they agreed they were taken ; but I have known. instances 5 L 1 where 812 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr. E. Larken. where there have been three or four sorts in a chop } they have not all 1 v- ' turned out equally good. Do you conceive that a classification of tea with a view to the collection of duty, is at all practicable r — I think it would not be piacticable, unless it was done by a very good judge ; there are so many different qualities of the same description of tea, particularly Congou. Making green tea pay one duty, and black tea another duty, would be liable to the same objection, supposing a great difference in price ? — Yes ; a duty upon green tea comprizing all sorts paying the same duty, would be liable to objection ; the difficulty would be the putting the same duty upon all teas of such various values ; if a rated dutv were to be made, it could be done only in that way ; so much a pound on black tea, and so much upon green tea ; but that would put the same duty, say two shillings a pound on teas worth Is. 8d. and upon teas worth 7s. Are there not some plain distinctions that, without going to a general average, you would be able to take a nearer maikr — They must be selected by very good judges, in that case. Are there no marks affixed in China which denominate the value of the tea? — No; it would be liable to great impositions, if a small duty were put- upon B >hea tea, those who are interested in that trade migi.t very easily pass Congou teas, or even inferior Souchongs and call tliem Bohea ; the Chinese would pack them and call them whate\er their em- ployers liked. [The Witness withdrew. CHARLES CARTWRIGHT, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : C. Carlwrighf Mr. Grant.~\ You are Accountant-general to the East-India Company ? Esq. ~~?l am - How long have you filled that office ? — Ever since the year 1798. How long did you hold the office as deputy previously to that ? — I think frem the yean lltib or 1 vbo up to the yt ar 1798. $tate v.h,at way now be the amount of the pecuniary engagements on 'account EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 813 account of the Indian territory, which the Company have to discharge C. C,000 a year; they will have to pay for interest and tor the sinking fund on the loan of tvvomilli ns and a half, an annual sum to the amount of «£ 242,820; these several sums will amount to £,2, 758, 820, Can you state what is the nature of the political charges general, which constitute one of the heads enumerated ? — It consists ot a great variety of payments. Upon what account, generally, are the political charges incurred at home, are they on account of the Company's establishment in India ? — Yes, they are. State what may be the annual amount of the exports made by the Company in goods and stores, for which the returns must be made to England ? — The Company have hitherto exported to the extent ot one million nine hundred thousand and odd hundred pounds. Upon what average do you take this? — I think upon the average of the three Lst years. Does that statement include the exports both to India and to China ?— — Certainly; but I presume that in future, if the private traders should much interfere with the Company, a verv considerable deduction must X, ke place in the Company's exports ; and therefore I assume, that they will only export to the amount of one million and a ha!}, annually. What is the annual amount of the bills drawn by the governments in In- dia on the Company at home, in favour of the commanders and officers of the "V" 8U MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartwi'ight. the Company's ships? — That question I cannot exactly answer; because Esq. I think in future the commanders and officers will not require the draft they have formerly done ; if they have money to return in the shape of bills, they will purchase the bills that will be in the market of India; but the case will be otherwise in China ; the commanders and officers there probably may take the full allowance,which is^f^OOO per ship, amounting to ,£80,000 per year. Do you conceive that a due and punctual discharge of the pecuniary engagements you have described, is essential to the welfare of the Com- pany ? — Unquestionably so. For the discharge of all these obligations, amounting to upwards of ^£'4,000,000, in what manner will the funds be most securely and con- veniently remitted from India to the Company in England ? — I conceive by goods, on the Company's account. Is it your opinion that the consignment of goods is the most secure and certain mode of furnishing the Company with funds for the purposes ia question ? — I know of none so secure. In your judgment, could the remittance of bullion from India be adopt- ed as a regular method of furnishing those funds? — I conceive not. State why ? — As India does not itself produce the precious metals, I conceive it has not a sufficient floating capital to spare such a drain as would be required. If it were proposed that individual traders in India should grant to the local governments there, for money to be received out of the public re- venue, bills payable in England, do you conceive that the Company cou.d safch' confide in such a resource for the punctual discharge of the weighty political engagements you have before described? — I think certainly not to the full extent. Would it be safe to continue to trust to the regular payment of those bills ?— To a small amount it might be very safe, because the goods would be consigned to the Company ; they would not part with the proceeds of those goods till the bills were paid. You have assumed that the goods in question are to be consigned to the Company ; answer the question, on the supposition that the goods are not EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 815 not to be consigned to the Company ? — Certainly not; if the goods are C. Curtwriglu, not consigned to the Company, what tecurit) have the Company, but the E^q. credit of the individual house; it would be carrying on the trade in a way * v * the Company never have yet done. Is it your opinion that such a mode of carrying on the trade of the Gorapam would Le extremely injurious to their interests? — I think it would be extremely injurious ; and such as, I conceive, no prudeut indivi- dual would trust to. Comparing the rate of exchange per sicca rupee which the Company • realise for Indian goods sold in London, with the rate of exchange which they would obtain by purchasing bills in India, which would, in your judgment, be the most advantageous method for the Company ? — 1 must first know at what rate the Company are to purchase their bills, and whe- ther thev are to purchase bills at all there ; if I am asked at what rate it is probable the Company will obtain them, that is certainly what I could not answer; it rests with the individuals v\ ho have got the money to remit. Do you understand what rate of exchange the Company realize for their goods sold in London ? — They have, upon the average of the last three years, in- the sale of piece-goods and silk, realised a remittance of 2s. 8. Profit on Outward rrade. of 1 iieu ini cut Custom. Freight. CUtCCl Of Merchandise, 5 pa Cent. Sale Amount. Total Coil ind Amount Sale of Goods. Profit the Trade. Profit on Outward Trade. Prime Con of Investment, Custom). Freight. Merchandize, calculated al 5 pei Cent. Sale Aamnl T utt | Co« and Chj.ett. Amount Sale 0/ Good.. P.ofit on IheTrark. Profit on O'.lftBld Tr.dt. 1,220,106 £■ 584.79; 189,56; £. 1 17.957 £■ 2.21 (.711: L. 2,545.15 £. 133.433 £. 54,305 £. 1,336,739 £. 41,284 £. 418,02s £. 125,729 £■ 1,921,780 £■ 2,514,594 £■ 592,814 £. 63,553 £ 2,556,845 £. 626.076 £. 707.591 £. 343,98(1 £■ 1 £. 4,133,498! 4,859.745 £ 736,947 £ 116,859 1,388,059 1,831,51; 571,074 744.569 290,673 581,214 130,571 177.164 3,280,377 3.324,45'. 3,611,522 3 54.1.231 331,145 KIMW 37.7J 54.756 1,595,493 1,408,037 27 J22 25,802 372,34< 472,487 143.072 148,636 2,138,233 2.055.012 2,86 1.425 2,972,664 723,189 917.652 70.64. (39,035 2,883,552 3.229,599 598,396 770,371 663,019 1,053.701 273.643 325.80P 4,418.610 5.472.944 5,370.471. 6,515,90c 1.054.331 1,136,425 96,379 ntM 1.708,379 856,204 556,669 169.777 3.891,03* 3.395,564 104,535 51,514 I.285J65 20J41 521.074 133,417 1,960,597 2,668,341! 707,749 (1.975 3,994,144 876,545 1,077,743 303.194 5,fl51,62c! 6.063,910 813,284 49.539 J797S 1,025,204 2,019,265 384,442 1,154,876 422.644 777.903 101.873 JJ-..109 1.937.163 4.IS..-J3 2,097,46? 4.66 ',.39" 160.305 478,177 100,531 I9l|073 1,292,803 1,601,606 .18,589 43.727 601,413 763,404 138,895 183,614 2,041,70c 2,591,351 2,577.89' 3.652.283 53''', iyo 1,060,933 9.9' 8,456 2,318,007 3.610,871 403.031 1,198.603 1,034,057 1.541,307 233.768 415,785 3,978,863 4.675,358 696, 19 1,539,103 110,442 129,529 IBM 6,776,564 6,315,673 mum 1, 665,61,9 4:9.312 651,173 178,934 2,924.408 3,564,694 640,286 47.72.1 1,830,569 7.439 786,507 169,749 3,814,264 3, 794,98 2 980,718 8,138 3.196,258 436,751 l,437,68o 367.983 5,738,672 7-359.676 1,621,004 55,863 Ko-I 2.0J3.975 201. 8 17 837,423 198,940 3.352.155 3 97'!. so.» 726,64.5 46.41C 1,783,254 7.334 697.474 180,819 2,668,881 3,616,381 947.500 (5.807) 3.797 ,239 209,151 1.534,897 379,759 5,921,036 7,595,181 1,674.145 40.603 m-i 1.425.16S 1,133.526 140.402 71,337 451,920 499,900 154.344 114.461 2. 1-1. s: j 3,086.943 915.109 39.34' 1,669,103 9»9-53 723.510 176,970 2,579.546 2,655.152 3,539,404 3,753,252 959.858 l,096,loo (10,015) £10,121) 3.094.27 1 3.874,533 150,365 78,159 1.175,430 1,219,560 331,314 302,126 4,751.3*0 4,474,371 6,626,347 6,069,636 1.874,967 1,595.256 39.326 13,343 *H *H-S 1,187.707 7l.46o 549.376 111.820 IjS2PjJC3 2,136 ,396 316.033 41.419 1.771,947 5,985 732,112 181,483 2,691.527 3,629.677 938,150 (25.967J 2,959,654 77,445 1,261,488 293.303 4,611,890 5.866,075 1,254.163 1 5.453 1 ,088,400 1,333.860 986,310 887,119 68,268 70,966 47,171 36,048 37U55 532,013 443,258 542.117 97,651 118)622 73.604 65,510 1)995,674 1,933 ojfi 327 ,352 16,014 1,559.286 7.962 618,720 165,375 2,351,343 3,307.495 3,740,699 3,709,046 3,846,756 956,152 4.755 (22,007. (2,697) 2,6j 7,686 76,230 78,595 990,075 1,176.581 1,103,755 l .263,554 263,026 299.657 259.056 357.848 3,977.017 4.596.91 B 4.080,718 4.134.428 5,260,521 5,995,598 5,181,190 5,156,971 1,283,504 1,398,680 1,100.392 1,032,513 30,769 33.881 32,567 112.415 »*; 644,558 187,035 1,178.961 2,663,962 659,497 721.437 1,243.122 £ 1.013 7*0 1,240,315 9G3,429 57,189 63,727 5g,r:3 4 18.070 508,977 &7.6S7 l,576,8«r 1,757,75 180,868 39,364 1 ,722,000 7.951 746,622 199,414 2,675,987 3.988,267 3,723.116 1,312,280 69.895 2,735,740 65,140 1,164.692 1,196,145 1,262.391 287 J01 4,253,873 5.746,021 5.977,280 5.963.86n 1.493,146 1,679,670 1,814.064 109.259 177,467 2I7.8S5 97,:«3 UmjttS 328,437 78.274 82,228 29R.M3 4.148,796 4U,230 86.775 1,564.915 851,161 Ill-U * AVERAGE • £ 1,110 .909 64,916 359.513 IO6.063 1,641,40 3,191,11 479.86i t65,26U 1.569.497 8,103 793,449 1 85.0 14 2.556,1163 3.700,285 1.144,222 52,405 2,680.406 73,019 1. 153 .962 291.077 4.197.464 5.321,516 1,634,082 117.673 15, 134.67 J 1.675,703 9.495,001 2,444 ,04o| 42,749.410 48 910,59 6,161,17* 1,057,06a 30,291.178 276.712 10,530,037 3.280,569 46,379.406 65.61 1.766 19.232,360 449919 55.426.i50 5,959,415 33,085,698] 5.724.639 89,128,622 1I4.533J60J 35,393,538 1,506,981 1,322,877 * Lou on the Trade. t Bengi] Bookt not received. N. B. The Sural inclosed between Parcnthes e the Amounts of Lon on Outvrar.l Ttidc. INDIAN TRACE. Profit on Sale* - brought down '. Do - Outwat d Trade - do Piu6lon Stores consigned to India, and issued from the several Detriment! at the Invoice Coir, which is A 10 per cent, above ihe Prime Cosi . Deduct Payments made in India Trade; viz. .nJ in England on account of ihe India Commercial Charges in India, not added to the Invoices* • Loss upon the Law Tonnage Losses at Sea Half Ihe Piofit on Spices, allowed Government in the Settlement of Accounts . . . 3,951.599 ■139.06; 1,409,10; 493,395 £. 6,161,178 1,(157, oft 497.272 Profit, after deducting Payments clusively to the Indian Trade . dia and in England, which are presumed to attach e CHINA TRADE. Profit on Sales - brought down Do on Outward Trade - do Do on Consignments of Merchandize from India Deduct Paymentl made on account of the China Tra^c ; Difference between the Bate of Exchange it which BilU have been") drawn on the Company, and the Rate used in the calculation n( J. Profit J 1,009,308 54.8.B8 19,232,360 449,919 403,090 20,085,299 Profit, after deducting Payments made, which are presumed to attach exclusively / to the China Trade * TOTAL PROMT Total NET PROFIT, India and China, brought down. Add ; PROFITS, of which no separation can be made, vii. Charges and Tront on Private Trade Interest on the Annuities real Payments in England, of which no separation can be made, whether applicable to the India or China Account : Surplus Commetcial Charges General beyond the rate per cent, deducted in the calculation of the Profit on the Sales Freight Outward, and Remuneration to Commanders of worn-out Ships • Advances of Freight to Owners «f lost Ships, many of the Ships havin E been employed in the Voyage both to India and to China at the period of loss or capture Dividends on Stocbj and Inteicit on Bonds ' 2,7G9.3I5 701,682 659,910 IJ,896,'J&7 £. 20,719,377 Ultimate SURPLUS PROFIT, ( £$ ag0 .„, 1793-4W ib'll-W > . The whole of the Commercial Charges in India, not .tided to (he Invoices, «t included in this Account j but . Relation is claimed as to tucb part of those Charges as ma, be supposed to attach to It Salt, Opium, and other branches of a Territorial nature. ■ several Bosrds ol Trade in the Management of ilic fl3d FWmary 1 6 1 3. n c. c CHINA TRADE. .-handize from India :s made on account of the China Trade ; if Exchange at which Bills have been" id the Rate used in the Bills have been "J calculation of > £. 1,009,308 548,881 £. 19,232,360 449.919 403,020 20,085,299 1,558,189 ucting Payments made, which are presumed to attach exclusively i 'rade , , . I 18,527,110 TOTAL PROFIT - £20,719,377 I the period of loss or capture . £. 20,719,377 2,709,315 701,(1x2 3,470,997 24,190,374 1,544,399 800,373 659,910 14,896,287 1 17,900,969 J Ultimate SURPLUS PROFIT, , 1793-4 to lbll-12 j £6,289,405 mch part of those Charges as may be supposed to attach to the several Boards of Trade in the Management of the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 8! 9 Were the trade in piece-goods for exportation transferred to the out- ports of th^ United Kingdom, can you state what would be the conse- quences with respect to the interest of the Company ? — Unless the trade should be increased, which it does not strike me as very probable it should, any quantity that goes to the out-ports must reduce the quantity the Com- pany would sell j there can be no question of that ; and the price of the article at both places, I conceive, would be reduced by the operation of the divided sale in the way I before mentioned. "Would the regularity of the sales of the Company be deranged by the transfer of sales of piece-goods to the out-ports? — Certainly. In what manner ? — By the quantity not being required by the prices not being so good s and I think the temptation that causes foreigners to come to this country to attend the Company's sales will be removed, if there is not a very large assortment at one place, which probably may not be the case if the out-port trade should be at all material in the articles, it is im- possible for me to say to what extent it may go. "Would not the last effect described by you, take place in an aggravated degree in time of peace ?— I think it is very likely it might. Have you, in your official capacity, drawn up any account or estimate of the profit or loss on the trade of the Company during the last nineteeen ■years, distinguishing between the Indian and the China trade ? — I have drawn up an account, which certainly was not done with a view to profit and loss solely ; it was drawn up upon this broad principle, to see what the commercial transactions of the Company, after paying all the commer- cial charges, the Company's dividend and interest on the bonds, and every other payment that was deemed not to be a political payment, had afforded to the territorial expenses of the Company ; the result of that statement, which 1 conceive to be very fairly made up for that purpose, was, that the sum of <£6,289,000 had been positively afforded from the commercial transactions of the Company to their political expenditure. Do you understand the statement of profit and loss contained in the estimate which you hold in your hand to be a correct one ? — Yes. The Paper was delivered in, and read as follows: [Vide Paper marked A.] 5M 2 S20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartwright, State from that estimate, the amount of the profit and loss during the last nineteen years on the India and China trades of the Company respec- tively ; and also the principles on which the computation proceeds? — The cost of the goods are converted into sterling at the rates of exchange men- tioned in the head of the account ; for instance, the current rupee is valued at 2s. the pagoda is valued at 8.y. the Bombay rupee at 2s. 3d. and the China tale at 6s. Sd. the cost so found is stated; the customs that the goods pay, are stated ; the freight that the goods are liable to is stated also ; the charges of merchandize in England are taken at five per cent, upon the sale value ; the amount of the sales of course is taken, and the differ- ence between the total of those charges and the sale value, is either the profit or loss ; the actual cost of the goods sent out is taken without any charge at all upon it; it is usual for the Company, when an invoice is made out, to add to the cost of the goods ten per cent, and, when the total of the invoice is found, an additional half per cent, in a round sum is added to that total; this ten percent. I conceive (it has been a very ancient custom, long before I was in the service, more than a hundred years, I dare say) is to cover interest of money, and also insurance ; the Com- pany do not insure ; but it is right their agents abroad should have some idea what the cost would be, if the interest and insurance were added to the goods ; the half per cent, is for petty expenses here, such as cartage, hoyage, and many others; and in drawing out the profit upon the ex- ports in this account, we left out this ten per cent, for this substantial rea- son ; that as the Company have debited themselves in this account for the actual losses they have sustained, and debited themselves for all the inter- est of the money they have used in the business at home, and for the di- vidend to the proprietors, of course there is the full sum charged in the account for interest upon the capital ; the profit upon the outward trade arises after the sale of the goods, or after the goods are taken out of the Company's warehouse abroad, provided they are not sold; such as stores, which are served out to the different boards, the military boards, and others;; of course, we take the credit for ten per cent, upon that, assuming that we should have got the ten percent, if they had been sold ; and therefore it is not really and positively a gain, but it is an assumed gain upon those stores; and if the stores had been sold at the public sale, no doubt they would have been sold for more profit than we take credit for in that ten per cent. ; there are many items in this account that cannot be so separated as to be charged to the India trade, or the Chinese trade distinctly ; such as we could separate, have been separated ; and the sum stated to be a profit upon the Indian trade, after such deduction, amounts to ,£2,192,2675 and upon the China trade, to ,£18,527,110. There EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 821 . . There is an item in this account for losses at sea, do you conceive that C. Cartwright. such an item should enter into the account, to the full extent at which it Esq. does enter there 2 — I think it very proper to come into this statement ; it » v ■ * necessarily should come into this statement, to show the sums afforded from the commercial to the political expenditure; but-if a commercial statement ot profit and loss was to be made up, if it was to govern for future years, I think we could hardly look to such terrible loss as the Con> pany have sustained within the last three or four years : my reason for as- suming that, is, that from the year 1790, I think to 1800, the actual loss was only one per cent.; and if the total loss sustained in this unfortunate period, taking the average from 1793, and taking also the India trade with the China trade, the loss per cent, is, I think, then only £2 Bs. ; and therefore my opinion is, that if the India trade was looked at for the purpose of establishing a correct idea, whether it was a gaining or a losing trade, I should state, that if the commercial capital employed is stated singly, and interest charged on it at the rate of 5 per cent. ; it' 5 per cent is added to the capital, and if it should be thought right to charge the interest upon two years capital, to afford time for manufacturing the goods and for the voyage, still I think the profit stated in this account of .£'2,192,000, would not be materially reduced. Is there any material difference between the amount of the losses at sea incurred in the India and in the China trades respectively ? — There is a very great difference indeed ; the loss upon the Indian trade amounts to nearly 6 per cent., whereas upon the China trade it amounts to short of 2 per cent. ; 1 conceive, principally, it arose from this circumstance, alto- gether a political one, that is, that the India ships are more frequently detained for military purposes, for expeditions, transport business, and matters of that sort, which divert the ships from the regular course of the voyage, which has occasioned them to be dispatched at improper sea- sons, and I conceive has been the prime cause of this very heavy loss, when compared with the China trade. Do you mean to imply, that in a purely commercial view, the amount of the extra losses by sea in the India trade ought to be deducted from the charges upon that trade ? — I conceive, that unquestionably they ought. Have you computed what difference that would make in the total amount ? — The difference amounts to ,£954,611.- '■ The further Examination of this Witness, was postponed. [The Witness withdrew. Adjourned to to-morrow, twelve o'clock. 822 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Veneris, 14° die Maij, 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. CHARLES CARTWRIGHT, Esq. was again called in, and further examined as follows : C. Cartwrivhl ^ r - Grant - ] You yesterday gave in an Account of the profit and loss Esq. f° r * ne last nineteen years on the Indian and China trades respectively, - with regard to which you stated, That, not having been drawn up exclu- sively with a view to ascertain the profit and loss upon those trades, it contained some charges on the Indian Trade which were not of a com- mercial nature, and that it did not distinctly charge interest upon the capi- tal employed : Can you state how that Account will stand with respect to the Indian Trade, adding the interest upon the capital, and deducting the amount of the charges not commercial ? — It is so stated in this paper. [The Paper was delivered in and read as follows :] REMARKS on PROFIT and LOSS on INDIAN TRADE. t _^ — — :.,-' ' Total Profit on Indian Trade, as per account of Profit and Loss - - - e£2,ig2,26f Deduct, £5 per cent Interest, on ,£25,134,672, the prime cost of the Indian Investment - - j£l,256,733 • - -?£5 per cent, on 1,322,877« the average annual amount oH home Investment, supposing that two years are invested > 66,143 before a return be made -----_} - 1,322,875 Add, Loss upon the Law Tonnage, which it is presumed is not a ~) transaction of a commercial nature, but which has been > 43C),C63 deducted from the profit of the Indian trade - -3 » - The difference in the rate of Insurance between the losses at~| sea on the Indian trade, and the losses at sea on the China j trade, the China trade being £\, \Qs. 2d. per cent, on the prime ccst of Investment, and the Indian trade being | JE5. 12j. Id. per cent, on the cost of Investment, the in- }■ Q54,6/7 creased losses on the Indian trade, arising greatly by rea- son of political detentions causing unseasonable periods of dispatch, to which the China trade has not been to so great a degree subjected .---.- 869,39 1 1,393,740 Total Profit in this view of the account, being an addition to the ? „ 2( ^„ .„. Profit stated in the account laid before Pailiament of ^70,864 J ' ' EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 823 Are you aware of representations having been made, according to which C. Cartxvright, the Company, instead of being gainers on the Indian trade to the amount Esq. of nearly Two millions Three hundred thousand Pounds, have been loser* v — -—• v * upon it to the extent of more than Four millions ? — I am. Do you understand in what manner that statement of loss is made up ? — It is impossible for me to understand it. The statement I have put in, to the best of my judgment, is as correct as the nature of things will allow. Can you form any opinion upon what grounds that computation ha* proceeded which results in making the Company losers to the extent stated in the last question ? — I certainly have heard it said the calculation has been drawn in this way : there is a sum stated in this Account for pay- ment of dividends on stock and interest on bonds ,£ 14, 896, 287. It ha* been stated to me that the way in which that calculation was produced, was, that as the total cost of the India Trade and the China Trade added together, incurred this expense for dividends on stock and interest on bonds, the India Trade should bear its due proportion, and in that way there would be the sum of upwards of Six millions apparent loss, from which the apparent profits stated in this Account would be deducted, leaving a balance of about Four millions. It is necessary I should point out that the dividend on India stock cannot be considered a commercial interest, it is about eight per centum upon the capital raised, and a commercial interest cannot be reckoned at more than Five, and therefore I have made cut the Account in that way. Have not the Company professed that their dividend did not arise from the India but from the China trade ? — I never heard any such profession made, not from the China trade exclusively ; if I am asked, will the profit on the China trade afford a profit equal to the dividend, I should an- swer with great safety I think, yes, for upon it the Dividend principally depends. You stated yesterday, that the produce of the articles sold at the sales of the Company fell short of their pecuniary engagements by a sum amounting nearly to ^fSOOjCOO, ; explain the cause of this apparent difference ? — ■ The cause I conceive to arise from the very large drafts that will be made upon the Company to pay interest upon the Indian debt, being as stated a Million and a half a year ; this sum is in a great degree new ; the annual amount perhaps previous to this period has not exceeded ^SOOjOOO for interest, and it is not to be expected that the commercial profits of the Company, or any thing arising out of the trade, can find a sum to pay an annual 824 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carlzcright, annual sum of a Miilion ; in answering the question I did not advert to a circumstance that 1 ought ; in showing the amount that was to be real- ized from the sales of the articles stated, and comparing that with the amount that the Company would be called upon to pay, I did not advert at all to the extra quantity of goods that ought to be invested in India, in consequence of those payments being transferred from India to England, and in consequence of that circumstance there appeared to be that defi- ciency ; but I conceive if we could find vend for the goods that would be additionally purchased by those funds so taken, there would be no defi- ciency, but that is still matter of doubt ; if the private traders under new regulations should interfere very much with the Company's regular trade, there must be a deficiency, I conceive, or the Company must revert to this circumstance, which will certainly be highly detrimental to the na- tion ; they must be obliged to reduce their exports of the raw materials of the country, and the woollens of the country, in some degree; they cannot afford to benefit the country to the extent they have, if they cannot find a return for the goods they send out. Are the Committee to understand that the ordinary means at home are equal to the ordinary demands of the home concern ? — I conceive they have been : whether they may be under any new system, it is impossible for me to answer. You are doubtless aware that the Company are by law obliged to put up all imports from India and China at public auction ? — Yes ; they are. You are aware also that, by the Commutation Act the Company are obliged to put up their teas at a sum equal to the prime cost, together with the freight, charges of importation, common interest from the time of arrival in Great Britain, and common premium of insurance ; and are likewise obliged to sell without reserve to the highest bidder, provided an advance is offered on that sum of one penny per pound ? — They are. Do they in point of fact uniformly require an advance to that extent before they sell, or are they in any case content with a smaller advance than a penny ? — I do not exactly know when the regulation took place ; but on the low teas, which are chiefly for the consumption of the poor, if a farthing instead of a penny is advanced, the Company is obliged to let them go; upon the high-priced teas, that is above 3s. 4(1., it is a half- penny instead of a penny. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 325 Do you mean to say that they are obliged by their own regulations r — C. Cartivrigbt, Yes, by their own regulations. Esq. » v ' C Examined by the Committee.) Are you acquainted with the accounts annexed to the Third and Fourth ■Reports of the Select Committee ; — Such accounts as I have put my •name to. Are you acquainted with the account in the Appendix, No. 51 ? — This account is not signed by me ; I cannot answer for any accounts not signed by myself, the auditor no doubt can ; I do not vouch for the accuracy ot the figures ; that account is compiled from papers that may have been fur- nished by me. In that account, the territorial charges paid by the Company at home arc stated 81X9,655,000, and the amount repaid by his Majesty to the Company in England for advances made by them in India at J. 9,544,325; is not this latter sum to be considered as a remittance from India, with which tlie territorial charges at home are discharged ? — I conceive it is. I can perhaps save some of the time of the Committee by reading an account I have in my hand ; it is an account of the balance of supplies between India and England, from the year 1792-3 to the year I809-IO, in England, corresponding with the year 1 793-4 to 1810-11 in India ; the result of this account is, that taking the exports sent to India, the bills of exchange drawn from India and paid in England by the Company, taking also the profit or loss upon the exports, the balance of it, it ap- pears that the total supplies in those eighteen years amount to Jf 43,265,976"; the supplies from England to India, including the payments made by England on account of India for bills of exchange which ought to come into the account, taking the imports from India to the same period, taking the commercial charges paid in India not added to the invoices, gives a total import of £29,91 1,465 ; giving upon the balance of the export and the import, a sum of JL 13,354,51 1 in favour of England, which Eng- land has supplied to India in this period ; but to carry this amount on, which I cannot in detail, to go beyond what I have stated, this balance of 13 millions is brought down, and we add to it political expenses paid in England that have not been before enumerated ; there is the sum the Company have paid in eighteen years for the passage of militarj^, ^1,118,383 ; there are the political charges paid in England on account of India, ^3, 492,651 ; there are payments made under the head of freight and demurrage that are clearly political payments, and they 5 N amount 826 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carfwrlght, amount to ,£594,090. There are paid to military officers on furlough, Esq. and who have retired from service, which are clearly political charges, £\,A 12,1-4 6 ; there are tor sundry articles purchased for the use of the military on their passage to India, which are political charges, ,£471,466; there is a sum stated in this account, which perhaps the Committee may doubt the propriety of bringing in, it is the amount paid to Government for participation and for troops serving in India, ,£"600,000 ; the sum paid for seamen, and for the hire of ships taken up as armed ships for Government, ,£ 75,290 ; the Rajah's and Nabob's bonds, with interest on sums provisionally adjudicated to the creditors of the Nabob of Arcot, «£357,£79 ? these several sums, added to the former sum of 13 millions, amount to ,£21,176,416 ; from these are to be deducted the amount of bills of exchange drawn from India in favour of the Company, and pay- ments made in India on account of England, 1793-4 to 1810-1 l r ,£'2,060,874 ; the monies that have been received from Government for supplies in India to the 1st March 181 1, amount to the sum of.£5}253,990; from which are to be deducted the disbursements made in Kurope, and not already charged to India in the account of territorial charges or poli- tical freight and demurrage, ,£'874,081, leaving a total of £ £ > 4,379>9°9 ; to which is to be added the sum of a million and a half advanced by Go- vernment in 1811, which has been repaid by disbursements in India, that million and a half added makes X5, 879,909 ; there is the sale of ships built in India, .£169,986; the cost of imports from India, received in China, amount to ,£4,0.35,499 ; the cost of imports from India received at the Cape of Good Hope, .£89,081 ; and the amount of bills of exchange drawn upon the Company, but which were invested and returned to India to this period, ,,£917,000 ; these items make to- gether ,£"13, 152,349, which deducted from the ^£21, 176,4 16 leaves s balance against India in this period of c £8,024,067- [The Witness delivered in the Paper, which- was read as follows] : — (B.) A/, Balance against India brought over Add, Passage of Military paid in above 18 years - - Political Charges in England - - ditto ... - - Political Charges, included in Accounts of Freight \ and Demurrage - - ditto j - - Officers on Furlough and Retirement, ditto - - - Sundries for the use of the Military on voyage, ditto - - - Amount paid to Government for Participation and 7 for Troops ... . j - - Ditto ... .for Seamen, and fori Hire of Ships taken up as Armed Ships J - - Rajah's and Nabob's Bonds,, with Interest on Sums'* provisionally adjudicated the Creditors Nabob of > Arcot ....... J Carried up '3.354.S 11 £ 1,118,383 3,492,651 594,090 1,412,146 171,466 600,000 75,290 357,879 £ 7,821,905 21,156,416 Imports are calculated at 2s. od. per Current Rupee. - 8/. cd. per Pagoda. - 2s. 3=4'i4" 4,2.6,808 3.334i'=4 £ 11,041 31,928 29,650 7'.37= 76,277 20,429 14,560 4,662 44,sss 41,236 37.803 *42S,220 4,076 503 20,363 l,l6l 38,874 £ i,i6«,ssa 1,5. .,348 ■,567,710 1,460,816 1.052,435 1,696,007 2.374.943 1,438,848 2,068,687 2,067,087 2,7.3,60. 2,060,06. 3,090,257 2.3 75.3 '7 2,891,408 4.454.3'3 5,201,725 4,280,055 43.265,976 £ 1,580,561 ■ .945.302 i,Si7,9;o ■,736,057 2,307,021 .,409,155 '.47'.955 1,277,916 1,056,140 1,834,582 ".37'.9 8 3 ■,964,385 778,349 977.'07 1,420,000 1,183,804 1,116,698 ',543.338 26,792,304 * Profit on Stores included. 145,004 ■ 92.99' '99.437 ■ 52.901 ■59.545 ■55.567 202,753 ■ 65,082 ■57.°'3 164,956 ■73,278 219,060 171,05. .S6..86 ■73.207 ■65,839 ■57.673 1-7,640 3,1.9,161 £ '.72;, 565 2,138,293 2,017,387 ■ ,888,95s 2,466,565 1,564,722 1,674,708 1,442,998 ■,213,153 1,999,518 '.545.261 2.105,445 949,400 1,163,393 ■.593.207 '.349.643 '.274.37" 1,720,978 29,911,465 £ S64.207 626,945 649.677 428,142 1,414,130 123,384 3,610,635 131,285 700,235 855.534 67,569 1,168,340 2,140,857 1,2.2,024 1,298,201 3,104,670 3.927.354 2.SS9.077 17,165,146 3,810,635 ■3.354,5" [Tumi om r r Balance against India brought over Add, Passage of Military paid in above iS years • - Political Charges in England - - ditto - - - Political Charges, included in Accounts of Freight "J and Demurrage - - ditto - - j" - - Officer* on Furlough and Retirement, ditto - - - Sundries for the use of the Military on voyage, ditto - - * Amount paid to Government for Participation and 7 for Troops - j" -for Seamen, and for 7 Ditto Hire of Ships taken up as Armed Ships ■ Rajah's and Nabob's Bonds, with Interest on Suros^ provisionally adjudicaled the Creditors Nabol Arcot - 1 Sums'* bob ofV Carried up Imports are calculated at zj. orf. per Current Rupee. - 8r. cd. per Pagoda. - 2j. 3J. per Bombay Rupee. Bills calculated at (ho rates at which they were drawn,. £. - • ■3.354,5" & ,118,385 Deduct, ,492.651 , 594,090 ,412.146 171,466 600,000 75.290 357,879 7,821,905 - £ 21,1^6,416 - - East-India House, ill March 1813. Brought up npanv^ l 79J-4f Deduct, Bills of Exchange drawn from Ir-dla in favour of the Company,! and Payments made in India on account of England i to 1 8 1 o- 1 1 - Monies received of Government for Supplies, "J r> &c. to the 1st March 181 r - - - ftZSrShB) Deduct for Di hursements made in Europe, iduct tor Uj hursements made in turope,-\ and not already charged India in ihe ( „ Account of Territorial Charge*, or Vo- } °74> c lilical Freight a«tl Demurrage - J Add, advanced by Governmen to be rej aid by Disbursemen on account of Government t in iBii,*] Is in India > 1, 4,379,909 500,000 - Sale of Ships built in India -...-. Cost of Imports from India, received at China - - Cost of Imports from India, received at llie Cape of Good") Hope I - Bills of Exchange re-invested and sent back to India Balance against India ■ £. - 21,176,416 £ 2,060,874 5,870,909 169,986 4,0 j 5,499 89,081 917,000 - " 8,024,067 (Errors excepted.) CHAt CARTWRrGHT, Accountant General. 828 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C.Cavtwrignt, j s no deception in it, but it does not embrace the whole subject ; I speak; Esq- with great deference, because I have not studied this ; if it should be the ^ Committee's pleasure, I will state my motive for drawing out that account which I have. It has been very strongly impressed upon my mind that many gentlemen, especially those who have been in the Company's ser- vice in India, have a notion that we have not charged upon the cost of the goods that sort of interest that the capital used had paid, because money had been borrowed, as I understand they said, at a very high rate of interest upon very disadvantageous terms, and that the money so bor- rowed had been directly applied to commercial purposes. I believe it to be perfectly correct that it has been so ; but though it has been so, I do not think it is correct that the trade should bear that large interest. This account was made out to show that the commercial transactions with India had been amply supplied with commercial funds for the purchase of their Investment home. If the Company's Agents abroad, very likely for very wise reasons, had occasion to use the commercial funds of the Company for political expenditure, surely the commercial funds ought to be repaid, without being loaded with an extra interest for it; and that was the sole view I had in making out the account. He pleased to state what the territorial charges paid in England consist of, those charges for which a remittance was made as above stated from India, through the medium of his Majesty's Government? — I am at a loss to know what those charges may be ; I do not know of any charges being remitted specifically by Government^ or on account of Govern- ment. The question alludes to those charges contained in Appendix, number 5 1 of the Fourth Report, which you are understood to have stated just now had been so paid by a remittance from India?— This account, number 51, is an account, I presume, made up under the eye of the Committee who formed this fourth report, from various documents; they may have made, it very correctly, or very incorrectly. I know it is no very easy thing to state Indian Accounts, and to do it face to face at the table; it is no easy matter, without the operation of the account is followed up from beginning to end, aud every part of it is so formed as to agree upon principle; it is impossible it can be spoken to rightly by a person under examination. Can you favour the Committee with a list of the political or territorial charges paid at home r — The total amount was included in the account delivered in; the political charges included are enumerated in one of the Reports; there is an account here, charges general exemplified, whiclt divides EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 829 divides a large sum, annually paid under that head, into various heads; C.Carhvright, and among the rest there are the political payments made in England, Esq: which consist of a variety of articles, it is impossible almost to divide them « v * accurately; for instance, the gratuities paid to the gentlemen composing the Court of Directors, should that be called a commercial or a political charge, and what part a political charge, we have taken it at halt ; thcve are different branches of the establishment at home that it is difficult tq divide ; we can hardly say what part of the expense it occasions is politi- cal, and what part commercial; even my own salary, if I was to divide it, and say what part should go to commerce, and what part to the politi- cal, I should be at a loss to do it, and there are a thousand things of this kind. Dispatches over land is a political charge, and a hundred other articles. This is done in a certain way ?— I believe it is in one of the reports. Refer to Appendix No. 46 to the Third Report ? — I was asked by the Committee on the 20th June 1811, "Whether, in your Account of the " 7th June 1811, intituled, An Account showing the amount of all sums- " paid by the East-IndiaCompany from their treasury inEngland, supposed •* to be chargeable to the territories in Indai, from the year 17Q3-4 to the " year 1809-10 inclusive, there is the head of political Charges included in " Charges General ;" the next question was, " What is the nature of those " charges?" — The sums paid to the Commissioners for managing the Affairs of India form a part of it; the East-India Volunteer Regiments. form a part ; the Annuities and Pensions for Political Services ; the Com- pany's Stud; Cadets and Military Seminary; East India College; the Depot at the Isle of Wight, and Recruiting; payment to the King's Mili- tary Officers and Soldiers; payment on account of India; payment on ac- count of Packets Overland ; the Persian Embassy and Subsidy ; a portion of the expenses of the Home Establishment for Salaries, which have been divided according to the best judgment of the Committee who under- took that business ; — those are the principal heads; there are a hundred, ethers* Can you state the principle upon which the charge for the East-India Volunteers is debited to the territories in India ? — It certainly is not a com- mercial charge ; I conceive it is upon this principle that the revenues of India, if they are to be rendered of any advantage to the Mother-Country,, must be so done in its commerce ; as the warehouses of the Company hold the commerce of India, and as those regiments were formed at a period of a very great disturbance, when every man's house in London was in danges 830 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C- Cartivright, danger of being attacked, it naturally occurred to the Court of Director! Esq. to form a defence tor that property which represented the revenue of India, ' therefore I conceive it is a political charge. Another charge row mentioned by you is for the East-India College ; does this include the whole expense of the College, or merely a part of it ? — I cannot take upon myself to say whether it includes the whole, or not, I should conceive it does; some part of the expense of the College is re- imbursed to the Company by the sums paid by the pupils ; the sums that are issued trom the Cnnpany's Treasury must come to account, and as tar as such issue has been made I conceive it must contain the whole. Do you conceive that the whole expense of the East-India College ought properly to be charged to the political head ? — That is asking me for an opinion that I am unable to give; it would be arrogance in me to attempt to answer it. There is another head, intituled, Demurrage ; can you explain why that is charged also, in toto, to the political head? — Demurrage is not charged, in toto, to the political head, it is only such demurrage as has been occa- sioned by political detention, and therefore should very properly be charged to the political head. Be pleased to explain to the Committee what you particularly refer to by political detention ? — It is necessary to state, that if a ship is detained in India upon any military operation, the wages of that service are issued to the ship's owner in the shape of demurrage, not as specific freight, but for loss of time, and therefore it is only so taken when a ship has been so detained. In the Account No. 46, signed by you, in which this article of demur- rage is included, is there nothing contained under that head of demurrage, but tor military detentions ? — No, I conceive not ; the Committee should be aware of this, that when I answer questions of this sort, it is not. possi- ble for me, or any one man, to embrace the minutia? of every statement in the shape of an account that necessarily comes before me as Accountant- general ; there are other departments that form such accounts ; this very statement of freight and demurrage is not formed by me, it is formed by the particular officer in whose department it is, and comes to me inconse- quence of a written letter sent by me, requiring such information ; if there is any error in it, it is the error of that officer, and not mine; but I have no reason to suppose there can be the least error ; he can have no motive for making EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 831 making It erroneous ; the Company's officers have no inducement to com- C. Cartwright, mit errors, nor can the Company have any inducement to commit such l^q. errors. Have not the East India Company received, by a similar remittance to that referred to in a former question and answer, over and above the sum thereinstated,afurthersum from Government on aReportfrom Mr.Wittwer, dated the 8ih March 1813, amounting altogether to .£5,790,603 ?— It is impossible for me, without the account before me, to answer that ; the Company have not, I conceive, received since the close of that account which is upon the Table of the Committee, a sum equal to ,£5,000,000. [The Account was put into Mr. Cartwright's hand.] The account referred to is now delivered to you as having been laid be- fore Parliament under the date already mentioned, with Mr. Wittwer's Report annexed to it?^-No, they have not j they have received.£2,000,OuO; the balance of this account due to the Company appears to be £l, 294, 42b', of which the Company have received, I believe, within this year, £2 ,000,000. Be pleased to look at the body of that account, and see whether they have not received other sums besides the balance 0^2,294,426, amounting altogether to the sum first mentioned of ,£5,790,663 ? — Yes, they have, several years back, but in the sum received is the repayment of the million and a half, stated in the account on the table. Are not those payments independent of the ,£9,000,000 before referred to, and stated in Appendix 51 of the Fourth Report ? — Appendix 51 to the Fourth Report I have stated I cannot speak to, it is not a paper of my forming, it is a paper formed by the Committee of the House ot Commons, I presume. Do you conceive that those two sums may have been sufficient to pay up to 1812 inclusive, the political charges disbursed, as above stated, from the home Treasury ? — The thing is so unconnected that I cannot answer it, it is impossible. I do not know what sum the question alludes to; if it is the nine millions stated in the A cc °un.t made up by the Committee of the House of Commons, I know nothing about that, and therefore I can- not speak at all as to what is equal, or what has reimbursed it, or any thing of the kind. The 832 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carttvright, The former question certainly alludes to that nine millions, and~to any Esq. addition of political charges paid at home, subsequent to the year 1810; on referring to the Account, Appendix No. 51, it appears to be made up from subsidiary accounts, the principal of which are actually signed by you, viz. Appendix. No. 46 of the Third Report, amounting to ^£(5,482,125 of the aforesaid sum, those therefore are the political charges to which the question principally refers, and which it is now desired to know whether the sums received from India through the medium of His Majesty's Government have been on the whole sufficient to cover: — It would be deceiving the Committee to answer that question directly ; the best answer I can give to it is by reference to the account I have just de- livered in, making this addition lo it that if any money has been received here of Government that they have not given India credit tor, it ought unquestionably to be put in ; but the account should be altogether carried on, and not abstract calculations drawn. The last question has no reference to any supposed omissions, nor purports to call in question, in the slightest degree, the authenticity or either of ihe statements referred to, it is merely wished to ascertain from you this simple fact, whether from an inspection of those statements, or from your professional knowledge, as Accountant-General to the East India Company, you do not think the remittances from India, through the medium of His Majesty's Government, have upon the whole been suffi- cient to defray all the home political charges ? — I cannot presume to guess whether I can answer the question at all, till I have looked at the account I have delivered in, probably that will assist me [the witness referred to the account] ; I think I can answer from this, that the sum, as stated in the question, is fully sufficient to answer these particular purposes. Can you state, from an examination of that account which you have just looked at, whether there has been any excess in the remittance, over the amount of the political charges referred to ; and if there is, can you state that excess ? — Is it understood of political charges only ? The political charges referred to throughout the whole of the preceding examination ? — I presume I have answered this question in the last. I have stated that the sum received of Government, if it amounts to nine millions, which I do not take upon myself to say it has, has exceeded the amount of those political charges, which this account states to be only .£7,821,000; but then it is necessary to observe, this account is two years behind hand, whereas two millions of the money has been received in the year 18 13, and therefore, without a combination, as I said before, of EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 833 of the account?, continue them up so as to show a general result, it C. Cartivright, is impos-ible to draw any conclusion, as far as my judgment goes as an Esq. accountant. * v ' Are you acquainted with the petition lately presented to Parliament by the Court of Directors, ; lying for leave to raise a further sum on loan, and the grounds on which I ,\e statements in that petition were prepared ? — I have not the documents with me, not knowing I should be asked upon that subject ; I made up accounts upon which the observations made in that petition were founded ; but if my recollection is correct, 1 think the petition does not go to the extent of raising an additional loan, that it goes merely to the having permission to obtain money from the public upon other securities, instead of raising it upon the Company's bonds, which were found incapable of being kept in the market from their being at a discount, and there being attached a condition to those bonds, that whenever six months interest upon them was due, the buyers at the Com- pany's sales could insist upon the Company taking them as money for their goods, and therefore it was not an available source of capital to them: the petition, if I recollect right, went only to solicit Parliament to have the goodness to afford the means of raising monies upon other securities ; but not an additional sum beyond that, that the law then sanctioned their borrowing. Were not the aids specified to be required in that petition desired for the purpose of existing demands on the Company's Treasury ? — I am not exactly apprized of the exact words of the petition, but I think it is very probable it may be so expressed. [The petition was shown to the Witness.] The words of this petition seem to go to a much greater extent than 1 have expressed. Of what nature were the demands on the Company's Treasury which are thus required to be discharged: — Principally for payment of the Indian debt transferred to England, for the interest on that debt, and certainly for other purposes not within my immediate recollection ; I cannot possibly say all the items, the great proportion of them was, cer- tainly, for the payment of the Indian debt. If the political charges at home have been defrayed as above explained, leaving an excess in the remittances of about two millions ; if the com- 5 O mcrcial 834 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartivright, merciai charges had been also wholly defrayed, so as to leave a net profit Esq. of ^-£6,289,405, as stated in the account of the Company's trade laid v v ; before the House of Commons, dated the 23d of February last, and signed by you ; and if, as stated in the Company's late petition to Parlia- ment, they have within the period, added ^£2,027,295 to their capital stock, ,£2,409,32 5 to their bond debt ; raised by loan, by way of reduced and consolidated annuities, the sum of ^.'2,&00j000 ; and now require to borrow .£2,500,000 more, making altogether the sum of £ 19,22 ,025 ; can you show in a figured statement, or otherwise, considering that the extra demands on the Company's treasury, are stated in the same petitions at only ^£13,10^,924, how the surplus has been, or is now meant to be, disposed of? — I cannot answer the question, it isimjx>ssible for any human creature to answer such a question as that out of his head, a subject em- bracing an expenditure of seventy or eighty m llions of money. You were requested in the former question, to state it, if you could, by means of a figured statement ; can you exhibit any such figured statement upon any reasonable time being allowed you for that purpose ? — I conceive that a statement may be returned, not founded exactly upon matter of fact accounts, but upon estimate, showing what has been the expenditure of the East India Company, both in England and in India, from the period of 793, up to the latest accounts, showing by what means that expenditure has been supplied, whether by commercial profits, whether by loans borrowed in India, or whether by surplus revenue, so as to bring the whole subject into one point of view ; but it is a work of great labour, as the Committee must see: it has been upon my mind for some time to attempt it, and some progress has been made upon it, for it has been my desire to give the fullest satisfaction, and having made up the account in a slight way upon this subject, I think it will appear highly creditable to the Company to show the extent of their expenditure, the mode in which it has been raised, and the general principles of the account itself; I think (it may be vanity in me to state it) that sue 1 an account is not to be shown by any other public board in this kingdom. The account referred to in the preceding question would seem to be of much more limited extent than that referred to by you in your answer, being confined to receipts and payments in England only ; the Committee therefore wish to know, whether you could furnish a figured statement, founded precisely upon the grounds of that question ? — I think it is possible «c may be able to furnish such a statement, but the account required must be stated in writing, so that it may be completely under- stood ; EAST iNDTA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 83fi stood; and it would be necessary, probably, that I sh mid make some C. CV/rt'^A/, observations upon it; I should think it would be some time before it could Esq. be done ; it is impossible to see to what extent it would lead, until I see * * the question in writing; if it is confined to receipts and payments in England only, I conceive it would not answer the purpose, that it must take in India with it, that it would not show accurately that which is desired without it. By the ships that are now arrived we shall probably have new statements of accounts from India, by which we shall be able to continue the account I have laid upon the table for one, or perhaps two years more, and I conceive that if that account could be carried up it would show every thing that is required. The account required is certainly intended to be confined to receipts and payments in England, and not to exceed the period or date of the state- ments referred to in the East India Company's petitions, can you there- fore furnish the account in the manner thus explained ? — I conceive it may be furnished in the course of a few days. [The further examination of this Witness was postponed"] Adjourned to Monday, ten o'CIock. Luna:, 17° die Maij, 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. CHARLES CARTWRIGHT, Esq. was again called in, and further examined bv the Committee as follows : i I The following question from the Minutes of Friday last was read over to the Witness. ** IF the political charges at home have been defrayed as above " explained, leaving an excess in the remittances of about two mil- " lions; if the commercial charges have been also wholly defrayed, " so as to leave a net profit of ,£6,289,405, as stated in the account " of the Company's trade laid before the House of Commons, dated " the 23d of February last, and signed by you ; and if, as stated in " the Company's late petition to Parliament, they have within the " period, added .£2,027,295 to their capital stock ; .£2,409,325 5 O 2 "to 836 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carlwright, " to their bond debts ; raised by loan, by way of reduced and conso* Esq. " lidated annuities, the sum of «£2.50O,O0O ; and now require to <. , — _- ™ borrow ,£2.500,000 more, making altogether the sum of " <£• 19,226 02^ ; can you she.w in a figured statement or otherwise, " considering that the extra demands on the Company's treasury are £; stated in the same petitions at only ,£13,104,924, how the surplus " has been, or is now meant to be disposed of?" Mr. Carlzorigkr.] In order to meet that question, it became necessary tor me to form the account from the year 1793, which must be evident to the Committee, because it states a resource from the capital stock. : the capital stock was increased in the year 1793 ; the money received for it in the years 1793 and 1791 (,£2,027, 295) was immediately expended; the sum that has arisen from the commerce of .£6,289,405 has been realizing gradually year by year, and, as realized, expended ; the sum that has been realized from the bond debt since 1 793, is .£'2,409,325. The sum from the consolidated annuities raised in 1812, is £2, 500,000 ; the sum received of government in March 1813, is ,£2,000,000, in part of the sum of ,£2,294,426 ; the whole amount of the Company's claim as ad- mitted to be due, but ,£2,000.000 only was advanced ; the ^£294,426 should be added, because the Company expect that it will be paid, and therefore it must be accounted for. There is a further sum which must be accounted for, which is, the sum that the Company at present have a right by law to raise upon bond, but cannot, from the state of the market, which, is £lf.O0,O00. They have only raised the sum of .£5,499,325, being the amount of bonds outstanding on the day of the date of the pe- tition, being short of ,£",000,000, by the amount of «£l, 590,675. It is to be observed, that I do not notice in the statement at all the ,£2,500,000 mentioned in the petition, because it makes no part of the resource that the Company ask for; for all that they want is a capital, as I before stated, some how or other, to the amount of the ,£7,000,000, to be raised on bonds, and which has not been raised on bjuds : then, to carry on this view up to the period of March 1814, to which time the estimate is correct, upon which the sum stated in the petition is grounded, it is necessary for me to go on with the profits on the trade two years longer than the accounts, to the end of the year ending March 1313, which was not compleat when the petition went in, and March 1814, for the two years profits, esti- , mating them according to the profit of the last year ; and I have no reason to suppose they will be less ; it is necessary I should take credit for the sum of a million and a halt for those two years ; and this profit arises alter de- ducting the amount of the Company's dividends, and the interest upon their bond debt ; I have not deducted from the profits any political pay- ments that may be made in the period, which would reduce that sum, for this reason, that, if I deduct them from this million and a half, they must come EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 837 come in again per contra, as a sum to be receired from government on this C. Cartwnght, account, and therefore it is ns broad as it is long : these several items amount altogether to .£18, 6 11, 126 ; to shew how that sum has been ex- pended, there is, in an Appendix to the Fourth Report (No. 48) a state- ment, shewing, that between 1793 and the 1st of March 181 1, the Com- pany had paid for Indian debt the sum of ,£8,507,651 ; between the 1st of March 1811 and the 1st of March 1812, as stated in an account of the actual receipts and payments delivered in to both Houses of Parliament, there will appear the sum of <£l,97 /,862 ; between the first of March 1812 and the first of March 1813, an account has also been delivered in to both Houses of Parliament for bills of exchange, on account of the Indian debt, amounting to the sum of ,£3,923,041; the Company's petition states, that the bills outstanding for Indian debt amount to the sum of .£2,202,000; which finishes these payments: the only thing I have to en- deavour to prove to the Committee, is the supply of ,£2,000,000, which the question states to have been received by the Company, beyond the amount of the Company's political expenditure ; the fact is, that the poli- tical expenditure is, as stated in that account, £l, 82 1,905 ; the Company have actually received of the government sums to the amount of .£5,879,909 5 so that instead of there being an aid to the funds of the Company of ,£2,000,000, those funds have been called upon to pay the sum of £ 1,94 1,996 ; the several sums that the Company have drawn from the sources mentioned, amount in toto to £\ 8,61 1,126 ; the sums that the Company have expended, amount to the sum of £ 1 8,546,550 ; it is necessary for me to state why the sum of £l, 500,000 was stated in the petition to be required ; it was from the probability that the credit which had been afforded to the Company by means of the bond debt, would not be effective to that extent ; that is to say, to the extent of ,£2,500,000 ; and the reasnn for supposing it would not be effective to that extent was, that actually the Company had at the time in their treasury, unavailable bonds to the amount of ,£1,590,675, and at that time the bonds were at the discount of, I believe, seven or eight shillings per hundred pounds, and large sums were daily paying in by bonds for goods bought at the sales of the Company, and it was imagined that a deficiency might occur to the amount of ,£2,500,000, as stated there ; and therefore to meet such an event if it should occur, this credit was asked for, but certainly not to be used, unless the Company could not keep their bonds in circulation to the amount of £7 ,000,000 ; and it is necessary to tnke in the sum of ,£1,590,675, as that sum may be issued upon bond, because in the esti- mates the whole sum of £l, 000,000, is taken in as payment, but if we cannot use it we must have the £2, 500,000. [The following paper was delivered in and read :1 STATEMENT. 838: MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartwright, STATEMENT tasliew the Sum realised, and expected to be realised, bij t/ie EA.SV IN-D; A, COMPANY, from their Commerce ; from Receipt's from Government ; Jrom increase of Capital Stock, and Bond Debt, from 1st March 1793 to 1st March 1814; be- ing the Period to which the Statements contained in the Com- pany's Petition to Parliament ivere carried; and also a State- ment exMbiting the Expenditure of those Funds. Amount realised by trade, as contained in the account pre- sented to the Honourable House of Commons The sum received from increase of capital stock, since 1st March 1793 — ditto by bond debt, increased since ditto — ditto by consolidated annuities, raised 1812 Sum received of Government in March 1813, on account of claims on the public - Profit estimated on sales of 1813 and 1814 Estimated to receive of Government, on further account of claims on the public - - - - Further sum that may be issued in bonds, to make up the amount the Company are allowed to issue by Act of Parliament ------ Bills of exchange paid on account of Indian debt, to 1st March 18 IT - - - 8,507,651 ditto, 1st March 1812 - - - 1,971,862 ditto 1st March 1813 - 3,923,041 Outstanding bills, as per Company's petition 2,202,000 Political payments to 1st March 1811, as stated in account deli- vered in to the honourable Com- £ mittee - 7,821,905 Sum received ol Government, to the same period - - 5,879,909 Political payments more than receipts from Government - 1,9"*1;996 15//i May, 1813. ,£,6,289,405 2,027,295 2,409,326 2^500,000 2,000,000 1,500,000 294,426 1,590,675 .£18,611,1.26 £\ 8,546,550 With EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 63^ With regard to the statement nowdelivered in by you,itdoes not appear to C. Cartwright, contain a precise answer to the question stated at the last meeting of the Esq. Co nmittee ; by that question, taken from the Company's own petitions, ^- — y— -— ' it will appear, that exclusive of their political charges, which have been defrayed through the medium of a remittance through His Majesty's government; and exclusive, on the other hand, of all their commercial charges, which it is presumed are included in your estimate, they have demands on their treasury to the amount of thirteen millions in round numbers ; the supplies raised to meet those demands would certainly ap- pear, by the petitions, to have been about seventeen millions, including the profit on the commerce, and deducting from that the ^£'2, 500,000 now required by the Company to be raised on loan, which you say ought not to be admitted into the account, not having been received.; and adding thereto the admitted excess of political receipts, over the home political payments, the sum will still be about seventeen millions in round numbers, to which should now be added, according to your ac- count, the estimated profit upon the trade in 1813 and 1814, of «£ 1,500,000, and the further sum that may be issued on bonds, of «£l, 590,000, making altogether a total in round numbers of above twenty millions sterling, which remains to be accounted for, and against which there would seem to be nothing stated, in the account produced, but the thirteen millions sterling before adverted to, as an extra demand on the Company's treasury ; the whole of the political and commercial charges appearing to be fully liquidated, it does appear that there would still remain about seven millions sterling to be satisfactorily accounted for, or the difference between the extra demand on the Company's treasury and the amount of those their extraordinary receipts ? — I have no other mode of answering that, but by referring to the account I have delivered in ; by way of explanation, as to the two million'!, evidently the account has not been looked at (as it appears to me) by the Committee in a correct point of view; it is not my account, and therefore it i:> hard upon me to explain it ; the sum of nine millions, as stated to be the sum received by the Company, is incorrect ; I presume it to be the whole amount of the Com- pany's claim ; there is no allowance made at all for a counter claim on the part of the public ; the public have a very large claim to set against that claim of the Company ; and I believe it to be the exact difference be- tween the sum as I have stated it, which is ^5,879,909, and the nine millions, as stated to be the gross amount of the Company's demand, making a difference of nearly „£,'3,200,OOU. Be pleased to state the nature of that claim of the public, which you say should be set against the amount of the Company's demand upon Mis Majesty's *4® MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C.Cartwright, Majesty's government ? — I did not say that it should be set against, but that I presume it has been set against it; the difference between the sum stated in the fourth Report, Appendix, number 51, of .£9,544,335, and that before stated, namely, ,£5,879,909, being the total of the Company's receipts on that account, arises from the disbursements of His Majesty's paymaster general, and interest on repayment in cash, as will appear in the account, Appendix, number 4, of the first report. Your account now delivered in is made up to the 1st of March 1814, in the greatest number of its items > but the political payments and re- ceipts now referred to are confined to a period ending the 1st of March 1811, up to which time you admit JB5, 879,909 to have been received from Government subsequent to that period ; it is stated in another official account, that two millions on account of a sum of £2,294,426 had also been received on the balance of an account between Govern- ment and the East India Company, dated the 10th of February 1813, which would therefore occasion the receipts from Government to exceed the home political payments of the East India Company on your own views of the case, and therefore leave the .£7,000,000, or a considerable part of it, mentioned in a former question, to be still accounted for r — If I was to admit the statement made in that question, I should admit that the Company had had credit for the two millions twice ; I state a sum received of Government in March 1813, on account of claims on the public, that is accounted for by the statements which have been made ; but if it is to come, and be set against the ,£7,821,905 again, it is taking it twice. If you will be pleased to refer again to the statement contained in the former questions, you will see a totally different view of the case, and that credit is not taken twice for the two millions two hundred and ninety- four thousand pounds, alluded to in your last answer ? — No charge is ex- hibited as a claim against Government for two millions of money in the aqcount of political disbursements ; it is finished with the 1st of March 1811, and the account ends there; anew two millions has arisen after that period ; the Company have received the money for it, and have ac- counted for the expenditure of it, but have not stated it in the political charges ; if it is to come in the way which has been put, it then should be added also to the political charges, increasing them to the amount of it. By the explanations now given, all that would seem to be twice cre- dited is the £ 1,500,000 raised on Exchequer bills ; there would, there- fore, according to the statement given in former questions, appear to be still EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 841 still £5, 500,000 or thereabouts, to be accounted for; are you able to re- C. Cartwright, concile this ? — There are the ,£2,000,000 not deducted, as well as the Esq. .£1,500,000. I y ' What £2,000,000 do you refer to ? — The sum received from Govern- ment by the Company in March last. Is not that £2,000,000 the balance of an account, in which the £1,500,000 forms an item ? — No ; it is a new account altogether, as I before explained. Can you state the amount of supplies in goods, stores, and bullion made from England to India, and the payments on bills of exchange, from the year 1793 to the year 1810? — The statement is before the Committee. Are those articles supplied from the Company's commercial capital ?— I believe that it is pretty well understood that the Company have had no available surplus revenue in India since the year 1793 ; on the contrary, the expenditure of India has exceeded its revenue very considerably ; to what amount I cannot exactly say, but many millions ; therefore whatever has been supplied to India, either in goods or by payment of bills drawn from India, or on any other account, must come out of the Company's funds at home, whether capital or money borrowed ; capital is a permanent some- thing; but what has been raised here, is a capital for which the Company ave now in debt, perhaps ; it must certainly come out of those sources, and has been expended; the two accounts I have delivered in contain a complete statement of the whole, and nothing can upset them ; the result of this account is, that England has furnished India altogether with a supply in that time of £8,024,067. Then these goods, stores, bullion, and bills of exchange, are consi- dered as the funds through which, ultimately, the returning investments are made to England ?— They are. Supposing the proceeds of those goods, stores, bullion, and bills of ex- change, to fall short of the prime cost of the returns, how is the defici- ency ordinarily supplied ? — It is impossible to answer that question, be- cause the fact is, they have not fallen short, they have exceeded by £8,000,000. How do you make it appear that the proceeds of the supplies above- mentioned, have exceeded the amount of the returns by £8,000,000. ? — 5 P By 8 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartwright, By debiting India for what has been sent to it, and paid on account of if, Esq. and by giving India credit for what India has returned to England in 1 y ' goods, leaving out of the exports the cargoes of any ships that may have been lost outwards, and giving India credit for all the cargoes that have been lost homewards, because it is supplied to us and it is a mercantile loss; and in addition, India has credit in this account for all that it has sent to China in that period ; and after all this, upon the balance of the account, asum total in favour of England and against India, is ^8,240,000, as before stated. Does not the account which you now refer to, contain a number of political items ? — Certainly. Are not those political items, as far as regards India, discharged from the revenues of the country ? — Certainly not. Is it not specified in the Act of Parliament of 17Q3, that none but the surplus revenue in India is applicable to the provision of the home invest- ments ? — Certainly, it is not ; there was a condition in the Act of Par- liament that a million sterling annually from the surplus revenue of India, should be appropriated to the purchase of homeward investments, but it has not been forthcoming ; it would have been the greatest absurdity in the world to say the Company should be prohibited from returning again the value of the cargoes sent out ; perhaps it is necessary, in point of fairness, to state, that in the first five years the Company did receive a sum from India arising fiom the surplus revenue; but when the war against Tippoo commenced, there was an end to all surplus revenue, and there has been, I believe, none since; the Company have been obliged not only to furnish the means of buying the cargoes sent home since that time, but they have been obliged also to pay back again what had been in the five years I have mentioned sent, and beyond that the sum of ,£8,000,000 which I have stated. Up to the year 1810, do not you know that the political charges of India are stated, on the best authority, to have exceeded the revenues in the amount of five millions sterling and upwards ? — I cannot state to what extent they may have exceeded the charges ; I have no doubt they have ; it is not my particular province that branch of the Company's concerns, and therefore I cannot accurately speak to it ; but I dare say it may be very correct, that they have exceeded it. It is stated on official documents furnished from the India House, that the EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 843 the amount of the cargoes consigned to India, for the period of seventeen C. Otrtzoright, years, corresponding to that referred to in the last question, have realized Esq. in India as follows ; goods and stores ,£8,904,068 ; bullion ,£7,360,7 5 '2; «*» v 1 bills of exchange ,£8.0 17,485 ; making £l?>, 736,908, whilst the returns from India, including the net amount of supplies to Canton, are stated at ,£32,380,569 ; how has this difference been supplied t — It is impossible, for me to answer the question ; in the first place, it is not within my department ; it is a question altogether with the auditor; and I presume, if it is taken from a document, it must be a document signed by him. Supposing the account of commercial supplies to India, and the returns from thence, to be as stated in the former question, can the deficiency in India have been supplied by any other means than that of loan raised in India ? — It is impossible for me to answer a question of that sort, founded altogether upon suppositions ; I must go on supposing in my answer also, if I reply to it. The question assumes a fact perfectly well authenticated ; can you, con- sidering it in that light, inform the Committee how the deficiency has been supplied, or are you aware of any other resource through which this deficiency can be supplied, but that of money raised on loan iri India, considering always that the revenues have been unequal for this period, to the payment of the whole of the political charges r — Any other man can answer that question just as well as me ; certainly, if there is no money to purchase the cargoes, money must be borrowed. The amount of bills of exchange remitted to England- during this period, for Indian debts, amounts to ,£7,472,090, not quite the amount of the difference between the supplies and returns, adverted to in a former question ; must not those bills, therefore, be considered as so much money advanced for the purchase of investments in India?— [The Account, Ap- pendix, No. 6, to the Third Report, was shewn to the Witness.] — In looking to this account, my attention is called to the sum drawn on account of the Indian debt only, which amounts to ,£7,472,090 ; in this same account, there is a further sum drawn on account ot India, of ,£8,017,485, making a total drawn in the period, of .£'15,489,575 ; now, it is necessary I should make this remark ; the bills that are drawn, as from India only, without specifying Indian debt, have been drawn for bona fide monies received in India, which has occasioned the Indian debt to be less than it otherwise would have been, if this money had not been so drawn; and therefore the whole sum in India must be debited for. 5 P 2 In r> MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cvrhorighf, Canton ; is or is not this account included in your estimate: — In my an- ■ICcj. swer to the former question, I stated directly that the supracargoes' com- < i j mission was paid at home, and. included in the home account; that the charges of the factory upon the home trade were included in the co^t of the goods, the whole of them; this account I have looked at; No 14 is altogether an account of profit and loss upon exports; and the charge of Ji '38,488 is deducted, or rather makes an addition to the loss ; of course, it is included ; the account speaks for itself; but it is not my account, it is the Auditor's ; it is a charge, I presume, u. on the exports only. Are you quite sure that the nett loss stated in thi; account is confined who ly to the sale of the export goods from Europe ? — I cannot take upon, myself to say that I am quite sure of lr : but I have every reason to be lieve it from the account. In your estimate it is observed, that the losses at sea on the Indian and China trade, ate stated to amount to Xl,Q3K,076; does this include the whole of the losses incurred outward and homeward, during the period from 17934 to IS 1 1 1'2 ? — fo the best of my knowledge, it does. It appears by other official statements, viz. No. 7 and 47 of the Appen- dix to the Third Report, and No. 55 to Fourth Report, that the outward and homeward losses, and by fire at Shadwell, up to 18:0, amount to ,£2,006, '267 ; it would seem therefore, comparing the actual loss in 1810 with the loss stated in your estimate in 1812, that there has been a con- siderable omission ; can you explain that ? — The loss as it is stated in this account which I have presented to the Committee, I believe to be the total amount of loss, and to be correct; but if this statement of loss is to be compared with other accounts which have been made years back, I should •know upon what principles these accounts have been founded ; there are losses which may be included in that, which do not fall upon the Com- pany; there are very considerable losses at sea that fall upon the owners for damaged goods, which they reimburse the Company ; and there may- be other circumstances, not in my mind, that may form a deduction from the account as it is there stated ; the loss upon the fire at Shadwell is not stated as a loss at sea; the sum was J_ 74,804, that is a deduction from the profit oh the home accounts, and is included in the surplus charges general, beyond the rate deducted in the calculation of profit on the sales. The accounts referred to are signed by yourself, and stated to contain the account of losses incurred by the East- India Company at sea, on their outward ai>d homeward cargoes, to which is added a small loss by fire at Shadwell, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 857 Shadwell, and are wholly exclusive of the charge for freight paid to C. Carfwright, owners of lost ships, which is distinctly stated also under your own sig- Esq. nature, in Appendix No. 54 of the Fourth Report ; can you, after in- '— — y ' specting the accounts, explain this apparent omission ? — It is impossible for me here to explain it; I have no doubt, if I had time to explain it, I should be able; but the Committee will observe this, that the dates do not correspond ; for though the outward cargoes go out in the season in ]7S)1 that return in 1793, still there is no homeward cargo at risk till 1792-3, therefore it is necessary to investigate the account, to sec ex- actly how the loss has arisen, whether outward or homeward, which no man can do here ; I must have time to do it at my office ; I have no doubt it can be as satisfactorily explained as any other paper I have ex- plained ; and I believe all I have explained, have been satisfactorily ex- plained. Do not you know, that subsequent to the periods included in the ac- counts Nos. 7 and 47 of the Third Report, there have been other very considerable losses at sea, such as the Camden, burnt in Bombay har- bour ; the True Briton and Ocean, lost in the Chinese seas ; and the Ceylon, Windham, and Charlton, captured by the French ? — It is im- possible for me to answer that question here ; if the Committee will allow • me to go into the account, I will do it ; I remember the names of some of them to be lost, but whether they had any European cargoes on board, i cannot say. Do not you know, or have you not heard, that the Camden was burnt in Bombay harbour, with her China cargo on board ; that the True Briton and Ocean were lost, with their respective cargoes on board in the Chinese seas ; and that the Ceylon, Charlton, and Windham, were also lost on their passage out, with their European cargoes on board, all being regular ships of the East India Company ? — I dare say it may be very correct that they were lost with the cargoes, as stated, but the whole question rests on dates ; it depends upon what season those ships belonged to ; if they do not come within this period, of course we have no right to bring the loss within that period ; it must come within that period with which the loss is connected ; I cannot answer here a thing of that kind, which requires study and investigation. The period alluded to is from 1808-9, when the accounts Nos. 7 and 47 are closed, as delivered in on the 7th of June 1811, up to 1811-12, when your estimate dated the 23d of February 1813 closes ; do you not know, or have you not heard, that these losses did actually occur within that 5 R . period : 85 S MINTJTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE CCartivright, period ?— My estimate that is dated in February 1813, closes with the Esq. sales of the year 1811, ending on the 1st of March 1812 ; this account \ ■- ' ' of the losses is dated by me in June 1S11 ; how coald i know any thing of losses that took place subsequently. When your account of the '23d of February 1813 was closed, wete there no official accuunts at the India House of the loss of the ships al- luded to in the question ?— I chre say there were ; but the very circum- stance that I have not inserted them in this account, leads me to suppose they did not occur within fhe period, or I should have done it; if t lie losses Were upon those seasons in which the goods arrived that are included in these sales, I should have taken the losses in ; but if the fact is not -90, I hate net taken them in, nor should I do so; 1 request to he allowed to make out an account to explain the apparent difference in 'the two accounts. In your estimate there would seem to be no charge for the establish - irienfs of Benco den, Prince of Wales' Island, ; nd Samt Helena, the nett •charges of which establishments are certified in the official vouchers an- nexed to the Fourth Report, Nos. lg, 20, 21, and those annex d to the Second Report, Nos. 3, 4, and 5, to amount to „f 3,931, 6tjp ; be pleased to explain why those charges have been wholly omitted from your esti- mate ? — Because I have not looked upon them as commercial charges ; "we have no traffic with Saint Helena, except a few stores sent out ; there is no trade at all at Prince of Wales' Island ; we have a solitary cargo of pepper from Bencooleen, which .costs about „Cl5jOOO yearly; it is altogether so trivial, that we could not look upon the expense as a com- mercial one. Do you consider any part of those establishments as properly charge- able on the commercial concern ? — The Committee will be pleased to consider I am merely Accountant-general to the East India Company ,• I 'am not a statesman ; I do not know how far the policy of this countiy should govern them to have settlements of a military nature ; it is a thing I cannot take upon myself to answer; I dare ^ay they are perfectly right in being at this expense, but the expense incurred is a political expense, in my mind, and not a commercial one.; as to the propriety of it, it is not for me to say anything about it. In drawing out your estimate,' dated the 23d of February 18.13, did you exercise your own discretion in excluding these charges wholly from the •Estimate, or how-btherwise r — I never presume to make statements of my own EAST-INDIA COMl'ANY'3 AFFAIRS. 359 swn of a speculative nature ; they are always submitted to a Committee and C. Cartwright, the judgment of that Committee is exercised upon those statements, as Esq. well as my own ; if I am asked for my opinion upon any account, ' v , * which I generally am, I give the best answer I can to the question pro- posed. In your estimate, dated the 23d of February 1SI3, it is perceived that a deduction is made from the profit on the China trade, amounting to „£l, 000,308 as the difference between the rate of exchange at which bills have been drawn on the Company, and the rate used in the calculation of profit, but a similar difference certified under your signature, in Appendix No. 26, of the Fourth Report, and amounting to C £520,7Q7 up to 1808- 9, for Bengal, Fort Saint George, and Bombay, is wholly omitted ; be pleased to explain the cause of this omission ? — The Company's con- nection with China is wholly commercial, consequently the rate of ex- change between China and England is not operated upon by any warlike occurrence, and as the currency in account is fixed as far as the exports meet the cost of the goods, we convert them into the currency of China at that fixed rate ; but when money is required to purchase the cargo, and bills are drawn, it was deemed fair by the Committee to value that part of the cost of the cargo at the price they paid for the money, which was the rate of exchange, and therefore the amount stated in the China part of the account is added, and properly so; but it is very different when you look at the India exchange ; that is not operated upon by commercial purposes only ; great military payments are to be made, money is to be raised, the resources of India are not commensurate to the expenses of India, and the Company must get money on the best terms they can ; but it does not follow because the rate of exchange upon the rupee, according to those circumstances, is raided from its ordinary level to 2;. (5d., that the commerce is to pay that ; and that was the reason the current rupee in the account is rated at two shillings ; if that price is wonted up jo the sicca rupee, it will bring the sicca rupee to iis ordinary value, and that, I presume, is an answer to that question. When the government of this country either sends money abroad, or raises it in a foreign state, does nor that circumstance affect the general commercial exchange, and do not the merchants of both countries suffer a loss, or obtain a benefit, by the gain which lesuits from that circum- stance ? — I conceive they may. Have the Court of Directors had any bills drawu upon them within the .period now treated of, or between 17Q3 4 and 1811-12, at a higher ex- 5 II 2 change 8C0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. C vticright, change than 2*. fJaLthe rupee for commercial purposes ? — I do not reeol-' Esq. lect that the rate has been higher; it is not within my recollection, ' t ' whether it has or not ; but as to bills being drawn specifically fur com- mercial purposes, I cannot take upon myself to say that there have. In Appendix No. 6, of the Third Report, signed by you, there is a sum of bills drawn from India, amounting to e £'8,D17»485 ; do not you know thav these bills, or some of them, have been drawn at a higher rate of exchange than 2s. 3d. the Bombay rupee, 2a-. the current rupee, and 8av the star pagoda ? — Certainly, there have ; the sicca rupee at 2s. 6d. is at a higher rate than the rate stated; the pagoda has been drawn at a much higher rate than 8*.; as to the Bombay rupee, I do not recollect; but I have no doubt it has been drawn much higher than Is. 3d. State the highest rate of exchange at which those bills, or any of them, have been drawn, according to the best of your recollection ? — From Bengal, I have already stated, I believe, 2s. 6d. the rupee is the highest rate; I may be mistaken; I think there have been bills drawn upon the Company from Madras, at the rate of nine shillings or Qs. 6d. the pa-, goda; what the Bombay rupee has been drawn at I cannot recollect, but proportionably high no doubt, except there may be a partial pressure at one particular place, that may operate upon that government; I do not know that that has been the case at Bombay. Do you speak with certainty as to Qs. 6d. the pagoda ? — No, I do not; but I think it is within my recollection, there were a few bills drawn at Qs. 6d. Are not the accounts of the East India Company kept at the following fixed rates of exchange ; viz. 2*. the current rupee ; 8s. the pagoda ; Is. Sd. the Bombay rupee ; 5*. the Spanish dollar ; and 6s. 8d. the tale ? —Yes; they are, as alluding to the statement from which the profit and loss is drawn in the account delivered in to the Committee. To what account is the difference by exchange carried, when any such difference from these rates occurs? — There is no such account made up, it cannot be supposed that a body like the East-India Company, having great commercial concern-, and great political concerns to look into, can exactly balance their books, as a common merchant can ; the tact is there is no such account. i if EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 36 1 If therefore a loss by exchange should occur in any of the Company's pe- C. Carfwright, cuniary transactions between India and England, are the Committee to K$qi infer that such loss will not appear in the Company's accounts ? — The only *■ v J answer I can give to that question is, that tie Company have never been in the habit of looking i-uto the circumstance of exchange, as a matter of profit or loss. In your estimate, dated the 23d of February 1813, the amount charged for customs upon the goods is £o, 952 4 I 5, this column corresponding exactly with the similar column in Appendix 25 of the Fourth Report, also signed by yon, up to the year 1809^10; besides this sum of customs, there appears in Appendix No. 51 of the Fourth Report, an additional sum charged upon the Company's trade up to 18J0, of t £5'il,i68, on which the Select Committee, in that Report, make the following remark: " The other charges upon the commerce are shewn under their respective " heads; the sum thus remaining in the customs is £$31,168, supposed " to be in part chargeable on the exports;" can you state why this sum, or a corresponding charge on the exports, has been omitted in your esti- mate ? — This I am sure of, that all the customs that either the goods ex- ported or the goods imported were liable to, and which the Company paid, are stated in the account ; but the Committee should recollect, when they speak of the Company paying customs, that they pay lar^e sums for customs on goods that are not their own, they are the goods of private traders; and I dare say the customs so paid are included in these statements ; all the cus- toms that actually bear upon the Company's export trade, or import trade, are included in that statement. In the Appendix No. 22 of the same Report, the sum of ,£1,569,677 is stated to have been paid by the Company for customs on private trade; and to be entirely exclusive of the sum here stated, as supposed by the Select Committee to be chargeable on the exports ; can you, after this ex- planation, account for the omission ? — I cannot account for the Committee's statement ; the Committee have been pleased to state what they thought right, and I dare say it is perfectly correct, but I cannot answer for it. Is not the outward custom charged in the cost of the goods in the in- voices ?• — Yes, that estimate only shews the general result of the trade. That is drawn from the prime cost, including customs ? — Yes, upon the outward trade ; the customs upon the home trade is specifically stated in the account delivered in by me. Is 862 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartwright, Is it included as a separate charge in such invoices, or is it included ii> Esq. the ten per cent. ? — It is not included in the ten per cent. ; it is a separate ' r ' charge. Does it appear upon the face of the invoice ? — Perhaps it may not in all instances ; it may be solved into the price at which the thing is invoiced ; but very often it is specifically stated where there is a vast variety of articles, such as apothecaries stores ; there is a bill from Apothecaries Hall, includ- ing a variety of article;:, duties paid on some, and drawbacks on others ; you cannot separate it so as to divide it on each thing, but in a large mass it is embodied in the cost of the goods ; it is in cloth, for instance, if it is still subject to the export duty. Is the ten per cent, included in the invoices stated as a separate charge, or is that also included in the price of the goods in the invoices ? — Generally speaking, it is included in the price of the goods, and not stated as a par- ticular charge. In Appendix No. 48 of the Fourth Report, also signed by you, the ebliimh of customs is stated at ^6,324, 141 from 17Q3-4 to 1810-11, whereas in the estimate delivered in by vou, the column of customs up to 1812 is only given, as'before stated, at ,£.5,952,415 ; how is this difference to be accounted for? — I presume that it is to be accounted for from the export customs being added in this account, No. 48 to the Fourth Report, whereas it is not added in my estimate. Comparing the column of customs in the same Appendix, No. 48, with your column of customs in your estimate, it would appear that very consi- derable variations exist in the sums stated against each year ; can you ex- plain this? — The estimate contains the Gust orris upon the goods actually sold within this period, the other account contains the customs actually paid within the period; now there may be a very great variation in the two sums ; much will depend upon the quantity of customs owing when the receipt and payment commenced ; "a sum might be due to the amount of five or six hundred thousand pounds, which was paid within the period ; it cannot tally at all when it is compared with the actual customs upon the specific quantity of goods sold. Is the Committee then to understand that the estimate delivered in 1^ you, dated the 23d of February 1813, does not contain the full amount bt customs paid within the period .? — 1 have not compared them, it may con- tain EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 8(i3 tain more or less, but whether it does the one or the other 1 conceive to be C. Carttcright, immaterial; the one is a specific statement of customs upon a specific Esq. -quantity of goods, the other an account of receipts and payments for the i [^ ) period ; they cannot be compared. In your estimate, dated the 23d of February 1813, the sum of freight •is stated at £2 2 ,02 5,0' 28 ; is this the whole sum of freight paid within the period, or can you state how much more it has amounted tor — It is not the whole amount of freight paid within the period, certainly ; I cannot take upon myself to state what the amount actually paid within the period was ; and if I could state it, it would embrace the freight paid upon the :private trade, if actual payments are taken. In the Appendix No. 25 of the Fourth Report, the sum of freight paid up to ISO9-IO is stated at the same amount as contained in your esti- mate up to that period; besides which, in Appendix No. 51 of the Fourth Report, there is a sum of «£" 1,986, 135 charged by the Select Com- mittee on the commerce, after deducting from the whole.. sum the freight paid, the freight on saltpetre, the freight included on political charges, and the freight paid to owners of lost ships, on which sum of «£' 1,986, 135 the Select Committee make the following remark : " The other charges " upon the commerce are shewn under their respective heads, 8cc. ; that " on freight is «-£*l ,QS6, 135, and is to be considered as chargeable to the " exports, to the loss on supply in tonnage, to the privileged trade, to " the outfit of ships, tonnage, and dock duties," 8tC In your estimate this sum, with the exception of the loss upon the law tonnage, would •seem to be omitted ; can you explain the reason for this omission ; the sum above alluded to, as the freight to owners of lost ships, of £ 508,961, up to 1810, being also stated as a separate charge on the commerce in the same account, {he latter cxclu ive of the sum now required to be explained ? — I .can only answer that question upon the same principle as I did as 10 the cus- toms ; the freight the goods are actually subject to is stated in the account, and from the vouchers furnished to me by the proper officers : As to the conclusions drawn by the Select Committee, and exhibited in their Ap- p.ndix, No. 5!, I disavow it altogether ; I cannot draw any conclusions from it without studying it ; I do not understand it, and therefore I cannot answer any thing drawn from that statement ; the whole freight paid may be completely accounted for, either as a charge upon the territories, or in one way or other it can be completely accounted for ; and if it should be the pleasure of the Committee to have such an account, we must require time to make it out. 861- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE £?• Cattwrighty Esq. In your estimate, dated the 23d of February 1813, the surplus com- mercial charges general beyond the rate per cent, deducted in the calcula- tion of profit on the sales, are stated at .£ 1,544,399 '» Appendix, No. 51 ; and page 39 of the Report, as before referred to, those charges general are stated to amount to j£l, 596,096 up to 1810, the rate of surplus com- mercial charges general in 1812 must be considerably greater; can you explain the cause of this apparent omission ? — We can account for this in the same way that the freight can be accounted for ; and if it is the pleasure of the Committee, we will make up the account accordingly. In your estimate, dated the 23d of February 1813, the Company's loss on the supply of saltpetre to Government is wholly omitted ; this loss in 1810 is stated, in Appendix No. 30 of the Fourth Report, signed by you, to be ,,£436,689, and of course, it is presumed, wouid be greater in 1812 ; can you explain the reason of this omission? — It is omitted alto- gether, and for this reason ; we do not deem it a commercial loss, though it is a commercial article that sustains it ; it is altogether an obligation forced upon the Company by law to supply a certain quantity of saltpetre at a lower rate than it costs them ; and therefore, I presume, in any com-, mercial statement it would be improper to take it in. In the Third Report, page 8, with the Appendixes there referred to, Nos. 3, 5, 7, 8, and 9, the Committee state as follows: a The invoice ' amount of goods and stores exported to the presidencies and settlements " in India, from the year 1791-2 to the year 1807-8, which reached " their destination between the years 1792-3 and I8O8-9, and for which "' England has been credited in the Indian books, is stated at the sum of " «£'l 1,554,218. The amount in which England has debited India, between " 17QI-2 and 1807-8, in this respect, is .£12,217,296, being less than " the credit above stated by ,£693,078. OF this difference, the sum of " ,£335,893 is ascertained to have been occasioned by loss, either by " capture or shipwreck. The sum still remaining to be accounted for, is " ,£357,1 85, respecting which your Committee beg to observe, that the " credit in the Indian hooks is given for the net receipt on the invoice " account, after deducting short deliveries, which are, for the most part, " chargeable to the owners of the ships on which the consignments were " made; some part of thtt difference now stated may be found in the short " deliveries; and the greater pnrt of it, it is presumed, might be accounted for, if the time of the Committee would permit ; or if it were thought to be of sufficient consequence to exam ne in detail the exact period of dispatch or arrival of the ships at the commencement or the conclusion of the period ; but this is by no means necessary for the " present n EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS, 8C5 r present purpose, which is to ascertain the cash resources of the Indian C. Cartw&vkt, " treasuries; in doing which, the part of the consignments alone, which Esq. " was sold and paid for, is the object to be attended to. The Committee i Y > " have hitherto called for and added to the Appendix an account, which " shows the aggregate amount of the sales of good.> and stores imported " into India from 1792 3 to 1S08 9 to have been «£'8,{J04,Ob'8. This is *' less than the amount of the consignments for which England has been credited, by the sum of £lfibO, ! 50, which deficiency is the point more particularly alluded to by your Committee in the remarks already made, respecting the difficulty of accounting with precision for the final dis- posal of the stores. Of the difference above stated, ^730,252 is to be distinctly accounted for in the increased value of import goods in the warehouses between 1792 and 1809; the' total increase of stores i$" ^£951,519, what proportion of these stores is European cannot be stated: assuming two-thirds to be of this description, and taking ,£634,346 accordingly, it would produce £\,3T3,bQQ ; in which case the sum of £ 1, 276, 5 52 would still remain to be accounted for. Of " this, a considerable part would certainly be found in the dead stock, 4t and some in the consignments made to Bencoolen and Prince of Wales* " Island ; but the remainder must be left to conjecture, and is supposed " to have been expended on service without being distinctly accounted " for, or to have been consigned from one presidency to another, in " which case they could not be included in the amount 'sold." Can you give any other account of the above sums, or are those sums, or either or any part of them, admitted into, or allowed for, in your estimate, dated the 23d of February IS 13 ? — I cannot distinctly state whether they are or are not ; the loss or the difference, if any, must be an Indian trans- action altogether, and if it is to be accounted for, it must be accounted for by the Auditor ; whether he can account for it or not, I cannot take upon myself to say ; the loss by sea is included in my account. In your estimate of profit and loss, dated the 23d of February 1813, is there any allowance made for bad debts? — In my account, certainly none ; I made inquiry as to the amount not only by bad debts, but as to the r.mount of loss by goods lost in the factories, and by loss arising from monies supplied to vyeavers who ran away; and also, losses on cargoes going from the factories to the presidency of Calcutta, that I got from the Auditor; I desired him to be very particular in stating what the rate of the loss was upon the goods supplied, and he stated it did not exceed 15s. per cent., and I presume, at the other presidencies, there is no reason to suppose it greater ; whatever the whole loss may amount to, taking that 5 S ■ rate 866 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE CCartim-tght, rate to be the ]osS) wi ,j be a deduction from the profits j havc assume ^ j_ I* , not being included at present. Is it not consistent with your knowledge, that the bad debtsin the commercial books of the East India Company abroad are very considerable? — It is not within my province to krow the amount of them it is with the Auditor; but if his statement is correct of the 15s. per cent, covering the whole, the bad debts may still amount to a considerable sum, which must be included in the amount found upon that rate. Do you conctive the amount now outstanding in China in the hands of the Hong merchants, to be either wholly or in part a bad debt ? — I cannot answer that question. In the Appendix No. 23 of the Fourth Report, there is a sum of ^Tg6o,000 stated as due from Government for stores, on which the Select Committee make the following remark : — " Credit is likewise taken for " the sum of ^960,000 as a claim upon Government for stores supplied, " advances, &c. ; this article cannot but be considered as disputable, if " not wholly objectionable, if reference is had to the balance settled and " paid, after the Report of your Committee in 1808, although it may not, " from its connection with the disbursements, be excluded in the view " to be now given." If this further sum should not be allowed, will not this be a dead loss 'to the Company ? — Certainly ; but as the Company have taken credit for it in their last stock account, they consider it as a good debt. Does a loss take place on articles often sent to China with a view to push the sale of British staples and new articles there, in the same season that other goods sold advantageously produce, upon the whole, satisfactory results ? — I think there can be no doubt of that. [The further examination of this witness was postponed. [The witness withdrew. [Adjourned to to morrow morning 1 1 o'clock. Meratrij EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 8G7 Mercurij, 19° die Muij, 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. JAMES DRUMMOND, Esq. a Member of the House, was examined as follows: Mr. Impei/.'] YOU were a supracargo in the East India Company's Jas.Drummona, service at Canton ? — I was. fc.sq. For how many years? — I was twenty years in the service. Did your situation give you an opportunity of being well acquainted with the China trade ? — I think it certainly did. Did it also give yon an opportunity of being well acquainted with the character and dispositions of die Chinese ; as well acquainted as it is pos- sible for foreigners to be, trading to that country ? — Certainly, I think it did ; not being-admitted into that country. Do you conceive it to be a part of their character to be extremely jea- lous of strangers ?— Particularly so. Have they, in consequence of that jealousy, formed any regulations for the purpose of restraining the intercourse of strangers with the natives of that country ? — There are various regulations of the government to restrain strangers from entering the conn try, as also to keep them subordinate and in proper order during the time of their remaining in the country. Are there likewise restraints laid upon the general commerce of stran- gers with China, by means of the Hong merchants ? — So far there are, 5 S 2 restraints,, 668 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jjs.Drummond, restraints, that they can deal with no other persons than the Hong mer Esq. chants, a body established by the government; and strictly speaking, lawfully no stranger can deal with any other person whatever. Have the goodness to state to the Committee in what manner the Hong merchants are security for the good behaviour of such persons as trade to that country ? — Upon the arrival of any foreign ship at the port of Canton, she is not permitted either to land or to have any intercourse with the merchants of the port, until some one of the Hong merchants becomes responsible, or, as it is termed, security for the ship ; when that is ac- cepted by the Government, they are then permitted to land their cargoes, and to deal with any one of those Hong merchants that they think proper. Have the goodness to state to the Committee in what manner in China the natives of any particular nation are considered as responsible for the acts of all others of that nation ? — It has generally been considered by the supracargoes resident in China, that the chief- of the factory is re- sponsible for the acts of all those persons belonging to his nation, though I cannot exactly declare positively that it would be considered so by the government ; but it is a generally received opinion, and certain ly in more instances than one the government have declared, that they would hold the chief responsible ; but I believe it has never been brought to a trial to ascertain whether they would or not. Under such circumstances, is it very necessary that there should be the strictest controul exercised by the chief overall other persons of his nation trading to China? — I should consider it indispensible for the security of the trade with China. Can you state to the Committee what are the principal exports from this country to China? — Woollens and metals, I believe, are the sole exports of the Company ; what the commanders and officers take are trifling ar- ticles , hardware, Prussian blue, skins of various kinds, and various other trifling articles that I do not at present recollect ; but metals and woollens are the principal exports from this country. Have the goodness to state how long woollens have, to any great extent, been exported from this country to China ? — I think, to any great extent, the woollens had not been exported from this country before the Commu- tation Act in the year 1^85 ; but since that it has been an increasing trade j EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 8Gg trade : at times however, subject to check, and the quantities obliged to Jas.Dntmmond, be reduced. Esq, i r ' Will you state whether, in your opinion, the introduction of woollens to a considerable extent in China, has. or has not been wholly owing to the exertions of the East India Company ? — Entirely owing to the exertions of the East India Company, I should conceive; and unless in the hands of one individual, or in the hands of a great Company, it would have been impossible for woollens ever to have found an advantageous sale in China. Be kind enough to state, what are the difficulties and impediments that the East India Company have had to encounter, in introducing the sale of woollens into the Chinese empire? — The Chinese are a people very much- addicted to their own customs and manners, disliking change extremely ; of course every new article experiences considerable difficulty in the sale; the Chinese wearing skins and their own manufactures, which suited them better, generally speaking, before the introduction of woollens ; they at first did not purchase the woollens with that avidity which might perhaps have been expected from the superiority of the manufacture ; time, how- ever, got the better of this prejudice, the emperor having allowed, at the time of the embasssy, the court dresses to be made of cloth, they became, consequently, more general in their wear throughout the empire; still the cost being very considerable, by the inland transport from the Southern port of Canton to Pekin, about twelve or thirteen hundred miles, the sale has experienced very great difficulty ; the coarser cloths, long ells, of which a very considerable quantity are used in China, are principally for the lower classes ; the prices being rather beyond what they can afford, the sales of them have been extremely difficult ; they have often remained for one or two years in the warehouses of the Hong merchants totally un- saleable ; I think these are the principal difficulties which the Company have experienced in introducing the woollens into China. Have the goodness to state what has been the nature' of the contract* with the Hong merchants, by means of which the Ea^t-India Company have forced the sale of woollen in the Chinese empire ? — The Company finding it difficult to dispose of their woollens in the open market, as was usual in trade, have found it expedient to make contracts the preceding year for the delivery of the woollens expected in the ensuing ; in doing this, they invariably contract with the merchants for a quantity of tea, equivalent to the amount of the woollens, or nearly so; and certainly a considerable advance, perhaps, is allowed to the merchaat upon the teas, as eta 870 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE ON THE Jas.Drinnmond, an inducement to him to contract for the woollens, by which the Hong Esq. merchant was, generally speaking, I believe, for the twenty years I resided v m ^vmmm J in China, nearly commonly, or almost invariably, a loser. Do you know whether other nations which trade to China have endeavoured to introduce woollens into that country ? — They have ; the French, the Dutch, and I think the Trieste Company, or the Ostend Company (I believe it was called the Trieste Company), have all, at times, imported woollens into China ; and, except the Dutch, I think the whole of them had given up the trade prior to their exclusion from the port of Canton at the commencement of the French war. Can you state what is the reason they have given up that attempt to in- troduce woollens ? — I conclude, from its being a losing concern. Have the goodness to state, what, or whereabouts, is the amount of the import of woollens from this country to China, at this time, by the East-India Company ? — I cannot speak positively since I left China, which is six years ago ; but, at that time, it was either very nearly, or perhaps exceeding a million sterling. Have the goodness to state, whether, in your opinion, the confidence the Chinese have in the honour of the East- India Company has not been one great cause of the successful introduction of woollens into that country, I mean their honour and honesty with respect to the quality of the woollens they introduce ? — Most undoubtedly; and as a proof of it, the bales of woollens pass throughout the Empire unopened or unexamined in any way whatever, when having the Company's mark on them. Has not the knowledge which private traders have of the confidence of the Chinese in the marks of the East-India Company, induced them in many instances to forge those marks ? — I cannot speak positively with respect to individuals ; but I think I recollect, that at one stage of the trade, the French Company did attempt it, and introduced a considerable number of bales with the East India Company's mark upon them ; it was discovert d, however, and I believe never again repeated. Do you know, that in the commencement of the woollen trade in China, the East-India Company sustained considerable losses ? — As far as I recollect, from the records of the East-India Company, certainly they did, though at times I believe they made considerable profits ; par- ticularly, and I believe I may say always, upon camlets ; but their losses upon EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 8fl apon long ells have at times been very considerable, to the amount, I Jas.Drtmmond, believe, of one, two, and three hundred thousand pounds a year. Esq. Considering these losses of the East India Company, is it your opinion, that in the hands of private traders that importation into China could possibly have succeeded ? — Certainly not ; I think it would have been totally impracticable ; could those accommodations not have been afforded to the Hong merchants, by taking payment in teas, and by the advance of money at periods when the Hong merchants were in distress, for the purpose of conducting their current business, and for the payment of the imperial duties, which has been the practice of the Company, I firmly believe that the Hong merchants never would have consented to have taken the Company's woollens, nor consequently would they have purchased them of individuals, it being a losing concern. Be kind enough to state, whether private individuals trading to China, would not have saved to a very large amount, by importing bullion rather than whoollens ? — Taking woollens generally, I should say yes ; camlets and broad-cloths, perhaps, might yield a profit, but certainly long ells, be- ing the principal part of the export of woollens from this country, and by which considerable loss has been sustained ; bullion would have been a very considerable saving to individuals trading with China. Tn the event of a free trade being opened between this country and China, do not you think that one of the effects would be to establish a monopoly in the hands of the Hong merchants, which would enable them in a great measure, to fix the prices both of the exports and im- ports ? — My opinion on that point is perfectly decided; I consider that a free trade with China would produce one of two effects, either the total loss of the trade from the misconduct of the seamen, or probably of the persons conducting the trade itself by the exclusion of the English from the port of Can on by the Emperor, or that the present advantages derived from that t:ade would be lost to this country, and thrown into the hands of the Chinese ; the body of Hong merchants are already, in point of fact, a monopoly, being appointed by the Emperor to the exclusive trade with foreigners ; and the mischief that might have been expected to result from s-'ch a monopoly has only been prevented by the power and influence of the Company, in supporting or in playing off one merchant against another ; this I think could not happen where there were a variety of interests, and no combined or concentrated efforts to keep the Hong merchants in order ; t! at the Hong merchants finding no general or com- bined opposition would, as they have it in their power, affix prices both to 8/2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jas.Drummond, to the imports and exports of China ; that, consequently, the woollen trade Esq. would be.loit, as it would no longer yield any profit; that the tea also would either be deteriorated, or the prices enhanced, so as to give to China the profits which at present are derived by the East-India Company and the countryat large. You have stated, that the monopoly of the Hong merchants has been counteracted by the power and influence of the East- India Company ; do you think that the Hong merchants, at present, are willing to submit to great sacrifices to insure the support and aid of the East-India Company, the question referring to commercial sacrifices ? — I should think that they would no longer submit to commercial sacrifices than as it was profitable to themselves ; that the trade of the East-India Company affording them a profit, they are at times certainly ready to make sacrifices to the East- India Company, and invariably have, I believe, taken off all goods sent to China on experiment by the East India Company, at the prime cost, although probably in the market they would not have sold for one half their value. Can you state, whether the Americans have not attempted to introduce manufactures into China, when specie has been scarce in America ? — I think I recollect, during my residence in China, several instances of. American ships importing the woollens of this country; the adventure, however, not turning out to their expectations, profitably, it has not, to the best of my knowledge, ever been repeated by the same persons. Can you state whether woollens are not subject to a very heavy duty in China ? — Camlets pay a duty of nearly the prime cost in this country; the duties on broad-cloth are considerable, 1 think; but i do not exactly recollect the proportion on long ells, though I believe the duty is equal to about twelve or fifteen per cent. As the smuggling of woollens into China might be highly advantageous to individuals, do you not think, that in the. event ot a iree trade, it i> probable individuals would endeavour to evade the Chinese duties, and smuggle them into that country ? — In the article of camlets, I think they would ; for, until the regulations of the East-India Company were ex- tremely rigid, there was a considerable contraband trade in their own ships of that article ; and which at times, from detection, has caused very serious losses to the security merchant of the ship from which they were so smuggled ; nearly indeed to the loss of his whole fortune, and even to the risk of his life. You LAST-INDIA COMPANY'S Al'TAIRS. 873 You have stated that officers of the East-India Company have heretofore Jus.Dntirjy.ond, been engaged in the smuggling of woollens ; have the goodness to state, *v>q. whether he general trade to China was endangered by those attempts of K v * the oiricers of the East-India Company ? — In some degree, I think, it was ; and frequent repetitions of the same practices might, i think, have lost us the trade altogether. State to the Committee, whether, in your opinion, the opening of the trade between this country and China would not be attended with a rise in the price of teas in China? — I think that question is already answered in a former reply, where I mentioned, that the inevitable consequence of the opening of the trade would be the deterioration of the tea, or an en- hancement of its price. Have the goodness to state to the Committee, how it has happened that the mischiefs you apprehend from an open trade have not resulted from the American commerce with China ? — The Americans, I think, have reaped the advantages of the East-India Company's exclusive trade to China ; that by the Company establishing an annual price for teas, of almost every description, those are not often during that season increased by individual purchasers ; but in those a r ticles in which the East-India Company do not trade, and which form part of the cargoes of the American ships, the prices are, I believe, nearly double from the commencement of the Ame- rican trade with China. Have the goodness to state, whether upon occasions of the rules cf trade laid down by the Chinese having been infringed, they have not threatened to exclude the English from that country? — They certainly have been threatened with the anger of the Emperor, and an exclusion from the port, if they did not conform to the laws and regulaiions of it. Da you think that the opening of the trade between this country and China would, in ail probability, be followed by the smuggling of tea into this country to a considerable extent ? — I conceive, that certainly the opening of the trade might give greater facilities to the smuggling of teas than at present exist; that the size of the ships would enable them to go into any of the small ports of the kingdom ; and moreover, the captains of the East India Company's ships being liable to dismissal from the service, if p-oing into any port whatsoever before they arrive in the Downs, unless by consultation of their officers they can prove an absolute want of an- chocs and cables ; of course, no opportunities to smuggling are afforded to 5 T them 874 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jas.Drummond, them prior to their arrival in the Downs, whereas the coasts in both Chan- Esq. nels would be open to the ships of free trade. ■v" The tonnage allotted to the captains and officers of the East India Com- pany is very small compared with the whole importation from China ; is it not ? — I believe the allowances to captains and officers of the ships are nearly a hundred tons in each ship ; the proportion, of course, will depend upon the size of the ship. With the exception of rhe tonnage allowed to the captain and officers, do you not consider the cargoes from China, under the present system, as entirely secured against smuggling? — I should think that would scarcely require an answer ; the Company are so much beyond every charge of being engaged in any practice of that kind, it is hardly necessary to an- swer that question ; certainly, I conceive it is perfectly secure. Do not you consider that the fear of being dismissed from the East India Company's service, is a considerable check upon smuggling, even with re- spect to that part of the tonnage which belongs to the captains and officers of the Company ? — I certainly think it is. Do not you consider, that in the event of a free trade, the increase of the number of ships, as well as the diminution of their size, would increase the danger and facilitate the operations of smuggling ? — I think my for- mer answer went to that effect ; that it certainly would. State to the Committee, whether teas may not be procured at Manilla, and in many of the eastern islands, as cheap as in China, and with the same facility ? — Certainly ; frequently cheaper. The duty upon tea in this country being 95 percent, do you not think, that if private traders were suffered to go among the eastern islands, it is probable they might be induced to purchase teas with a view to smuggling them into this country ? — I think that is very probable. Having already stated, that you thought, in the event of a free trade, our commerce with China might be endangered by the misbehaviour of the seamen and crews of the ships; state to the Committee, whether the Chinese laws respecting homicide are not extremely severe, and what those laws are ? — I believe Sir George Staunton could have answered that question better than myself ; intact, the laws are extremely severe, and I EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 875 I believe, in one instance alone excepted (which has occurred since I left Jas.Dnimmond, the country), blood for blood has been invariably required. E:q. Have the goodness to state, whether blood for blood is not re- quired in cases where the murderer cannot be discovered ? — It has generally been supposed so ; but I should conceive that the Chinese are too just to demand it, it they were satisfied that the murderer could not be discovered ; although it might be difficult, certainly, to satisfy them upon that head. Has not the trade with China been endangered from the misconduct of the seamen in the Company's service, notwithstanding the unremitted ex- ertion of the great power entrusted to the Company's servants to keep them in order ? — Very frequently ; and scarcely a year passed during my resi- dence in China, in which the supracargoes were not apprehensive of being embroiled in disputes with the Chinese government, in consequence of the riotous behaviour and misconduct of the seamen of our ships. If private ships were permitted to go from this country to China, with- out the strong controuling power of the Company, do you think it would be possible to prevent such crimes being committed, through the irregu- larities of the British sailors, as would endanger and interrupt the trade between this country and China ? — I think it would be extremely difficult, though the appointment of a consul might, in some measure, remove those difficulties, by his having a controuling power over all British seamen in the port. Do you think that any controuling power which could be granted to a consul at Canton would be equally effectual with the power at present exercised by the Company, either for the protection of British subjects trading to that country, or restraining them from misconduct? — A consul, not possessing the commercial influence which is possessed by the supra- cargoes of the East India Company, I think, in his negociations with the Chinese government, which are invariablv carried on through the mer- chants, he would not have the same advantages as are at present possessed by^the supracargoes. Do you think that there is any difference between British and American seamen, as to their conduct in the ports of China, and as to the apprehen- sions that may be entertained of irregularities that may be committed by them ? — I think my observation went, during my residence in China, to satisfy myself that the American seamen were, generally, more orderly than 5 T 2 the 876 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jas.Drtimrnond, the seamen of our own ships ; which I certainly ascribe to the profits of Esq. the American trade being very considerable, enabling the proprietors of v v ' their ships to give a much higher pay than is customary in ships from this country ; and not unfrequently, I believe, the seamen have been concern- ed to a small extent in the adventure ■, this, however, may vary in the event of a war with America, as at present happens, when her navy would acquire, and probably obtain her picked seamen, and her mer- chant vessels would then be compelled to have recourse to men of worse character, as I believe to be the case with respect to our own ships at the present moment, the owners of our own ships being frequently obliged to take men from gaols, and desperate characters of every description, tor the purpose of manning their ships on leaving this country. Is the Committee to understand from your last answer, that, in your opinion, the irregularities committed by American seamen have been Jess- than those committed by British seamen, on account of the American seamen employed in the China trade being picked men ? — Yes, I think,, certainly. Have the goodness to state to the Committee what, in your opinion, has been the cause that the China trade has been so lucrative to the Ameri- cans ? — I should consider, that the advantages which they may have de- rived from that trade, have been very much owing to their being enabled to carry it on with bullion. Has not the circumstance of the wars in Europe, likewise, contributed ex- tremely to enhance their profits, on account of their facilities in supplying the Continent ? — For several years prior to my leaving China, the Ameri- cans were in the habit of having three or four ships annuaily destined to the ports of Europe, for the supply, I presume, of the Dutch, and of all the north of Europe ; and of which, at the restoration ot peace, or at pre- sent, in consequence of the war with Great Britain, they will certainly be deprived. If private ships from this country were permitted to go without restraint to the eastern islands, do you apprehend atrociries might be committed by private adventurers in those extensive seas, where there are no European settlements, that might injure the natives and affect the British character ? ■ — I think it not improbable that it might be to, from the variety of cha- racters which certainly would engage in a trade of that nature. Have any instances of such atrocities, committed in other parts of tire world, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFArRS. 877 world, come to your knowledge, as to have led you to form the opinion J ts Drummond yi u have Stated in your last answer ? — Reports, certainly, have been circu- lated in China, at different times, of the misconduct of some of our smaller v— ves'^els trading in the skin trade to the north west coast of America, of the tru.h of which, however, I can bring no positive proof, although, I be- Jieve, that at the time I had reason to suppose they were not altogether groundless. From your knowledge of the China trade and the Chinese character, are you of opinion that the present system, under which it is carried on, is the most advantageous and safe for this country ? — I conceive, that any peson acquainted with China cannot have a doubt of its being more ad- vamageous to Great Britain that it should be continued on its present system. Do you apprehend, that if a free trade were opened between this country and China, the probable consequence might be to deteriorate, if not to endanger the trade altogether I— I think, in my former answers, I have completely replied to that question in the affirmative. (Examined by the Committee.) Have you any acquaintance with the nature of the trade that has been carried on between the northwest coast of America and China? — I think I have. Are you of opinion that an advantageous traffic could be carried on circuit jusly from this country, taking the north we t coast of America, in the first instance, and thence pr «secu ing the adventure to China or In- dia ?— I believe that various speculations have been entered into from this country to the north west coast of America, and which have ended either in China or India, and seldom, I believe, to the advantage of those concerned ; and I know of no instance where it has been repeated a second time by the same person or persons. Was not that experiment made by a Mr Cox, who had been long resi- dent in China, ar.d must have been intimate!, acquainted with the most advantageous mode of carrying it on ? — I should have said in my former answer, that there was also a direct trade from China to tne north-west coast of America, and which, I believe, wag carried on for several years in the infancy of the trade, and was then, i believe, profitable ; Mr. Cox. certainly 87* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE JdS.Drummond, certainly went from this country or from Sweden, in a vessel under lis^j. Swedish colours, to the north-west coast of America, and was, I be- l v ) ]i eve> perfectly acquainted with that trade, but I do not believe that he persevered in it, 01 those with whom he was concerned ; he died shortly after his arrival in China : I do not believe that that trade was continued by his partners, or by those concerned with him. Did he persevere in that trade till he died in China? — I believe not. What led him then to China ? — Mr. Cox was long a resident in China? he was ordered home, not being permitted to remain there ; he then found it necessary to obtain a foreign protection, to enable him to reside m that country, and went out to China by the north-west coast of Ame- rica. You are not then perfectly certain that the partners of Mr. Cox did not continue the trade, even after his death ? — Upon recollection, I think it never was repeated, even in Mr. Cox's life -time, for he lived either a twelvemonth or eighteen months, and went in that ship to some of the islands in the South Seas for the collection of seal skins, and not to the north-west coast of America for sea otter skins. Can you inform the Committee to what the duties and charges on tea delivered at Canton amount byond the prime cost ? — The duties are dif- ferent, I think, upon green and black teas ; the exact amount I do not recollect, but I believe the charges are from two to four tale, of 6s. 8d., on each pecul of tea of 133 lbs. Can you inform the Committee what the per centage may be ? — It is impossible for me to say what is the per centage, because the duties are similar upon the high and low priced teas ; the tea that costs ten tales pays the same duties as the tea that costs 50 tales ; it must be a matter of calculation ; in one case it might be equal to 20 per cent., and in another not to five. Can you form any approximate idea of what it might amount to upon the general cargo of tea ?— No, I really cannot. May not tea be obtained from other ports of China, through Chinese junks, at inferior charges to those paid at Canton ? — I think they might, as not being subject to the same export duty by the Chinese junks, to which they are when laden on foreign or European ships. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 879 Do not you know, or have you not heard, according to the publi- Jas.Drummondy eations before the House of Commons, that the additional charges on tea Esq. amount to from 30 to 35 per cent ? — No, I never heard it ; nor have I K — — v J ever seen it in any publication. Were the Chinese seas opened to 3hips of smaller tonnage, might they not procure teas with the advantage of inferior charges ? — Certainly. Do you know the average quantity of British tin imported by the East India Company into China ? — I believe it has been about 300 tons, but I cannot charge my memory to state the exact quantity. Do you know the average quantity of copper ? — I think copper for se- veral years has not been imported by the East- India Company ; copper made into small sticks, to imitate the Japan copper, was for a time im- ported into China, and I do not exactly recollect when it was given up, but 1 believe it has been discontinued for some years. Do you know the prices which the tin imported to China costs the Company? — I can only judge from the invoces ; and as far as my me- mory will assist me, I think it was from £*Jb to ^82 per ton. Do you know whether tin is not brought from Banca to China, by C'inese junks and other conveyances ? — We had very imperfect means in China of ascertaining the imputations by the Chin se junks, for they el mg to a variety of ports in the empire, and they are under a different department of the customs from what the foreign trade is, and therefore, we have never been able to obtain any correct statement of their imports or exports ; with respect to the importation by British or other ships, I believe, for several years, it has been very trifling, but I cannot say to what extent. Do not you know that great quantities of tin, at pre ent, as Banca is • no longer under the Dutch monopoly, may be obtained there; and if it can be obtained at a much inferior price, will it not be supposed, that, in- stead of importing tin from Europe, the ptoduce of Great Britain, private ships trading will bring it from Banca, and supersede the import of that British produce which at present takes place in China? — I cannot speak, from my own knowledge, with lespect to the quantity of tin that is pro- duced at Banca, or among any of the other eastern or Malay islands ; but thosepossessions belonging at present toGreatBritain, J should conceivethat facilities SHO MINUTES OE EVIDENCE ON THE Jas.Drummonl, faci i ties will be given to the obtaining of tin, which have not existed for E-q. many years past; and that, consequently, the sale price of Banca tin being l* v ' generally higher m China than that of tiie British tin, it will become a con- siderable article of import to China. Can you inform the Committee, why Banca tin sells higher in genera! at Canton than British tin? — The reason which the Chinese generally assign, is, its being more malleable. Are you acquainted with the prime cost at Banca, or the relative cost of that and of British tin? — I am not ; but I should conceive it must be considerably cheaper, by having understood, t'^at all those who formerly traded in it derived very considerable advantage s from the trade. Are not the India country ships which frequent Canton placed under the conduct of the chief of the supracargoes, and subject to their orders and regulations ? — They are. Do you know that the owners and Commanders of those ships enter into covenants with the government of India in a heavy penalty to that effect ? — I certainly know that they do enter into covenants with the government of India binding themselves to obey the tegulation, and orders of the select committee of supracargoes, because upon the arrival of those ships in China, they are bound to present their papers, and did for several years present them to myself; the copies of these papers were lodged with the supracargoes for copies to be taken. In the event of its be'ng made a regulation, that the country ships should not trade in teas beyond a small quantity for the consumption of the different presidenc es in India, are you not of opinion that the chief and select committee of supracargoes would have it in their power to en- iorce such a regulation ? — i should think they would, certainly. What has been the general conduct of the commanders, officers, and native crews of the country ships at Canton ? — They have, in general, been very regular and orderly, to the best of my recollection. Are you aware of any instance, with the exception of the unfortunate accident which happened from the firing a salute from the Lady Hughes country ship, of a disturbance occurring on the part of any person con- nected with country ships, which tended to a stoppage of the trade ?- -No; 1 do not recollect anv. Was -V" EAST. INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. SSI Was not the circumstance alluded to, of the death of the Chinese oc- Jas.Drummond, casioned by the firing of a salute from the Lady Hughes, considered ksq. entirely accidental ; and that no blame whatever attached to the perso* s v connected vv.th that sfiip ? — That circumstance having happened several years before my arrival in China, I cannot speak positively on the subject. Are you not aware, that the gunner who fired that salute was delivered up to the Chinese government by the orders of the chief of the supracargoes, under a promise from the Chinese government or their officers, that his life would be preserved ? — To the best of my recollection, from perusing the Company's records, I believe that the officers of the Chinese government at Canton did certainly promise not to put him to death. Have you not heard, and do not you believe, that notwithstanding this promise, that man was strangled ? — I certainly have heard that he was ; and have no reason to doubt it. In your evidence just delivered, you were understood to have men- tioned some advances of money made to the Hong by the supracargoes in China; be pleased to state, whether those advances were charged with inerest to the Hong or not ? — Certainly not ; whenever advances are made to the Chinese merchants, at the commencement of the season, they are carried to their accounts, and no interest charged ; but if, on closing the books at the end of the season, any of the merchants are indebted to the Company, the sum so due is considered as an advance upon their con- tractsof the ensuing year, and an adequate deduction in the price of the teas is allowed to the Company. Has there not been a considerable balance outstanding in the hands of the Hong merchants f©r several years past ? — The balances outstanding, when I left China, were trifling; but 1 have understood that they have been considerable since ; and I conclude that the same advantages have been derived by the Company from these outstanding balances, as if they had been actual advances upon contracts. During the period 1 was in China, 1 believe that the Company have more frequently been in debt to the Chinese mei chants, than the Chinese merchants in their debt ; and no interest, although this amount has exceeded frequently a million sterling, has ever been allowed to the Chinese. 5 T T From 882 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jas.Dmmmond, From what period has this outstanding balance been in the hands of fcsc. the Hong? — I believe from the year L8O7 or 180S. w In consequence of these advances made to the Hong, is the Committee to understand, that the teas purchased on account ot the Company were procured from the Hong at a cheaper rater- I think, in my former answer, I stated that an adequate deduction was allowed ; 1 believe that deduction has been one, two, and three tales a pecuL Considering the Company to have procured their teas at thoFe reduced prices, can you state whether those prices were higher or lower thai the market rates of the tea ? — The contracts being made a year or several months prior to the delivery of the tea, I cannot state positively that the contract prices have always been lower than the market prices ; but I believe, in general, they have. By the market prices mentioned in a former answer, is the Committee to understand the money prices paid by individuals or private merchants for those teas? — It is the practice of the captains and officers, and all foreigners, 1 believe, trading to China, to dispose of their cargoes to the Hong merchants at certain prices, and to take the payment of part of those in teas, at what is considered the money price ; it frequently hap- pens, however, from the distresses of the Chinese merchants, that teas, are purchased in the market by the payment of ready money, at prices below what is considered the market price. Then the Company may be supposed, in consequence of the Hong deriving the benefit of the advances mentioned by you, to get their teas as cheap as what may be called the money prices in the Chii.a market? — Most assuredly, when advances are made; and I should have staU-d in a former answer, that the deductions in consequence of advances,, are generally equivalent to an interest of about twelve per cent, per annum. From your knowledge of the Company's accounts at Canton, can you inform the Committee, whether there are not sundry charges at that factory which are not added to the invoices of goods consigned from thence, but still kept upon the books ? — Certainly, none; the whole are closed by what is termed charges general, and those charges are put upon the invoices. [The EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 883 [The Account No. 14 to the Fourth Report was shewn to Mr. Jus.Dvmmdnd, Drummoml 1 Esq. t , ) Jlr. DrumniGnd. It appears that sundry charges have not been added to the invoice; these I should conceive to have been either advances or payments on account of the embassy to China, or advances made to the captains of his Majesty's ships, though I cannot speak positively. [The Accounts Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, were shewn to Mr. Drummond.] Be pleased to state, after inspection of these accounts, whether the account No. 14 does not contain charges of a commercial nature, not added, as therein stated, to the invoice of goods from Canton r — I cannot reply positively to that question ; but as I know that it has been the practice in China to add all the commercial charges to the invoices, I conceive the charges in No. 14 not to come under that denomination. ■6 V Be pleased to look at the same account No. 14, and to state, for the information of the Committee, whether the profit and loss account therein given does not, in your opinion, contain an account ot the general losses sustained by the Company in Canton during the pedod of the account ? — I should conceive it to be the balance of the profit and loss account, as therein stated. Does that profit and loss account contain the bad debts of the East India Company in China, and can you state their amount, or nearly so, during the period of your residence in China ? — I do not think that the Company, during the period of my residence in China, ever had any bad debts, or ever lost money ; the payment of debts due by bankrupt mer- chants, have frequently been delayed for some years, but have ultimately been liquidated ; nor were there, I think, when I left China, an}' such due to the Company by the merchants. Can you state, from your knowledge of the Canton accounts, what the losses contained in the account No. 14, are principally to be ascribed to ? — Almost exclusively, I should conceive, arising from their, losses on woollens, though there may be some other articles, which I do not at present recollect. Has the woollen trade been, in general, to the best of your knowledge 5 U 3 or 834 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ■Jas.Drummoitd, or recollection, a losing one to the Company ? — I think I have stated in Esq. my former answers that it was so. Art; not those woollens made over to the Hong merchants, at what is termed a barter price .'—There is certainly a consideration allowed to the merchants in concluding their contracts with them, and something addi- tional is given on the prices of their teas, in consequence of their con-. senting or agreeing to receive the woollens at stipulated prices. Is the Company's loss on their woollens calculated on that barter price: at which they are made over to the Hong ? — The loss upon the. woollens is the difference between the invoices transmitte 1 from England wi th the charges thereon, and the sale price to the Chinese merchants with the charges of landing, &c. thereon. You are understood to have stated in the former part of vour evidence, that the Hong merchant sustained very considerable loss in disposing of those woollens again in the country ; can you state at what rates, generally speaking, those woollens were so sold by the Hong, compared to t!ie price at which they received the same from the Company ? — I cannot precisely state the difference, but it has, I believe, at times been as high as thirty and forty per cent, upon the article of long ells. May this difference be considered to constitute the amount of differ- ence between the money or market price and the barter price of articles in China ? — I think the question goes to assume that I had allowed a bartejr price, which if I have, was certainly not my intention ; the Company, as I stated before, in consideration of the merchants receiving their woollens at fixed prices, have allowed a trifle more for their teas than what they would have done, if they had purchased them entirely with money, and the losses which the merchants su tain upon their woollens, are more or less regu'ated b\ the distresses of indb iduals ; the respectable and wealthy, by keeping their goods on hand, are certainly not exposed to the same loss which the needy are, by being compelled to an immediate sale ; and I should conceive that the merchants submit to ibis loss, rather than relinquish the advantages which they derive from the Company's trade generally. In Appendix No 2 of the Fourth Report, which you are requested to take the trouble of perusing, the Court of Directors admit the baiter price,, and direct their consignments in future to be sold at money prices, that they might be enabled to shew with precision the extent of the pecuniary EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 885 pecuniary sacrifices to which they submit, in order to extend the con- Jas.Drummond, sumption of British staples ; will you favour the Committee, by stating Esq. generally, what the amount per cent, or otherwise of those pecuniary v v "* sacrifices may be, or in other words what you consider to constitute the difference between the barter price alluded to, and the money or market price of the commodities ? — To answer that question satisfactorily, it would be necessary perhaps to go into the detail of the whole of the Company's trade, as connected with China, and which would be perhaps rather too tedious for an answer ; but as far as I can make myself under- stood by the Committee, in reply to this question, I would state, that if the whole of the export of wo >llens belonging to the East India Company were to be sold and paid for in money immediately, I do not conceive that one half of their present prices would be obtained, if they could be sold at all ; that it is only by the facilities granted to the Chinese in taking payment by teas, that they arc induced to receive them ; consequently, it naturally appears, that the exact difference cannot be stated; but I should imagine; that it would be very considerable; and, at the same time, that the advantages obtained by the purchase of teas «ith money, would in no degree compensate for the loss. By stating that the supracarocs could prevent a greater export of tea in country ships than they thought necessary, did you not mean to con- fine yourself to the power they can exercise at Canton r — Of course. Do you conceive that any such power could be exercised effectually, so as to prevent any quantity of tea being carried by country ships f om other ports ? — I believe that by the covenants entered into by the owners of tho^e ships with the governments of India, they arc strictly prohibited from going to any other port or ports in China than Canton ; and that, consequently, an attempt to proceed there, or the actually going to any port, would render them liable to the penalties in the covenants wbicli they enter into with the government of India, Could the supracargoes controu' the commanders of country ships from receiving teas from the Eastern Islands, not going to a port in China ? — Certainly not. Could they supply themselves to any extent that they pleased ? — I should think they might supply themselves to a considerable extent. Havo the goodness to mention the islands to which you allude, where the country ships could get supplied with teas to a considerable extent? . — I should SS6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jas.Drtim?nnvd, — I should wish to confine it to ports ; Manilla and Batavia are, I think, Esq. the principal ports, where they could certainly obtain supplies of teas, ' — — v ' if they chose. Are you aware that the penalty attached to a breach of the covenants between the owners of the country ships and the governments of India, is double the value of the ship and cargo ? — I do not exactly recollect the penalties to which they are liable, but I believe them to be very considerable indeed. Supposing regulations to be made by the governments of India to the same effect as those alluded to in China, are you, or are you not of opinion, that they would prove effectual, under such a penalty, to pre- vent the country ships trading in teas ? — Not being aware of any instance in which those covenants have been infringed, I naturally conclude they would. Are not (as before observed) the commanders of country ships so com- pletely under the controul of the select committee in China, that they have even the power of removing the commanders or officers at pleasure, in the event of any misconduct? — I rather think the supracargoes have that power ; but I cannot speak quite positively on the subject. Have you any recollection of a circumstance of that kind having ever occurred, or have you ever heard of such a circumstance ? — I think I have some faint recollection of a captain of one of the country ships having been threatened to be removed from his command; but whether he was or not, I really do not recollect, it being at the early part of my residence jn that country. Do not you think, that although the governments in India may con- troul the country ships, they could not, if the China seas were opened to private traders from Great Britain, prevent those private traders fur- nishing themselves with tea, if they were so inclined, at different ports in those seas ? — At any ports subject to the controul of the Company, I should conceive they might ; but as I do not suppose that private traders from Great Britain would be so completely subjected to the controul of the Indian governments, I do not know that they could prevent thein from obtaining teas at foreign ports, RICHARD EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR?. 887 RICHARD WAITE COX, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Juckxn»~\ — You were in the civil service of the East-India Com- ft jr r< ny . pany upon the establishment at Bengal ? — I was How long have you been returned from thence ? — Between three and four years. Were you in the revenue department at any time? — I was. How long ? — About fourteen years. Were you also in the department called the export warehouse depart- ment ? — I was. Were you a commercial resident ? — I was. Where * — Golagore, in the province of Burdwan, How long were you there ? — About four years. Are you well acquainted with the mode in which the East India Com- pany provide themselves with piece-goods f — 1 am acquainted with it. Be so good as to state, how the investment is first determined on ?— By an order of investment sent by the Court of Directors to the govern- ment of India, who forward it to the board of trade. Does that state the quantity of the articles they may require ? — It states the articles and the quantities. Do the government, in forwarding that to the board of trade, merely forward a transcript of the orders from home, or with any directions of their own ? — That will depend upon the state of the finances of the country ; if the government have funds for a larger investment than the Court of Directors require, they will allot funds to the boaid of trade for the provision of a larger investment; and the board of trade will exercise their discretion in the allotment to the several factories. Supposing the government not to have funds to the extent of the orders from home, what steps do they take then ? — A proportionate reduction will sq. »— — y- — _> SS3 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE It. IV. Cox, will be made from the order of investment of such articles as are least Esq. productive to the Company. In either of those cases the government would express their pleasure to the board of trade as to the amount, and as to the articles ? —The board of trade would determine the articles, the government would limit the amount. Upon being apprized of the amount, what steps do the board of trade take next to procure the artifles ; w hat discretion do they use as to the articles r — They forward a copy of the order of investment to the several factories at which the goods are produced ; they reduce the articles ordered that are least profitable. Do you mean that the board forwards its orders to the commercial residents at those factories ? — Yes, to the commercial residents at the factories. Upon the receipt of such orders, what steps do the commercial resi- dents take ? — Generally, notify to the weavers the order of investment ; divide it among the several subordinate factories ; and require the wea- vers to attend on a certain specific day for the purpose of receiving advances, which are made «to them. Upon such ocrasio^s, when the weavers are assembled, do the commer- cial residents apportion to them the respective quantities which each weaver should manufacture ?-— He is furnished with his advances for hie specific number of pieces , and an accou. t current is given to each weaver, in which he is debited for the advances made to him, and credited for the deliveries he may make. Upon such occasions, how is the price settled ? — There are standard prices, as well as standard musters or samples. Explain what you mean by each of those terms ? — The terms that have been usually paid ; the advances are issued to them at the established rate, except the weavers should object, in consequence of the high price of grain or the high price of thread. Supposing the weavers to express their opinion that they ought to have fflwe, what steps are taken by the commercial resident? — It is his duty to represent EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIttS. represent it to the board of trade, with his sentiments of the necessity of R. l' r . Cox, the measure. If an alteration takes place, does that occasion any new or express Agreement? — If the price is altered, of course, the igreemerit varies, that is, the goods furnished will be at a higher price j the i so far varies. In what way would that agreement be concluded on, or recbr as between the resident and the weaver ? — By marking it in his account current, in what is called there a hatchet, which each man carries in his hand. Whatever agreement may thus be entered into, the weaver, by the mode you have described, or some other, has a opy of that agreement, or the substance of it ? — It appears in his account, which he is furnished with from the factory, Is it stipulated, at the same time, what are the periods at which the goods shall oe delivered ? — The number of pieces which he is to deliver per month is generally stated ; some articles of a finer nature, of course, require a longer period than a month. In what proportion are the advances as to periods; are they from month to month, till the delivery is compleat ? — It will depend entirely upon the nature of the assortment; the weaver receives advances for a specific number of pieces; in the finer assortments, he cannot compleat his deliveries within the month. In such cases, is he in fact always working upon advance ? — He is. In what way is the manufacture superintended so as to insure a good article to the Company ? — There are people on the part of the resident, who go round to see what the weavers are at their work, and the quality of the article will be determined when it is compared with the musters; the inducement to the weaver to provide a good article, is his receiving a proportionate price; they are divided into four assortments. During the time the manufacture is going on, are they under any degree of superintendence, to see that they are proceeding with a good and per- fect article? — There are superintendents - on the part of the resident, to see that they arc proceeding, and in some instances they may examine the 5 X thread ; V~ 850 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE it. W. Cox, thread : I do not believe that they controu! the weaver ; he is at liberty Esq. to purchase such thread as he thinks proper ; he is paid for his work l ^—-J afterwards upon the sample. The Company trust to the fact of the goods turning out agreeably to the musters, or else reject them ? — Each assortment is divided into four letters, A, B, C, D, with a proportionate reduction of price; the enhancement of price is a stimulus to the weaver to deliver a good article. Are they strictly examined,, and by whom, at the time of delivery ? — They arc first examined by native examiners, and subsequently by the resident himself; the weavers attending to see that justice is done to them. They are examined by native examiners, with the knowledge of the weaver, and in his presence ? — -Yes, by a native on the part of the fac- tory, and subsequently by the resident. Supposing any of the articles turn out to be inferior to the muster, what steps does the resident take? — They will either be reduced into a lower assortment, or totally rejected ; and the weaver will be compelled to dispose of them upon the b.st terms he possibly can. You mean that they will be turned into a lower class) — Yes; and if so deteriorated as not to form any of the Company's assortments, they will be returned to the weaver, rejected. If unfit for cither of the four classc; you have mentioned they will be rejected? — They will. How, in that case, would you settle as to the advance of money ? — -He must deliver another piece equal to sample. Supposing a piece inferior, in the judgment of the examiner, to the muster, would the weaver have liberty to withdraw it altogether and sell it to whom he could, or would he be compelled to sink it into one of the. lower classes ? — It follows, as a matter of course, that it will go into a lower class, if it is not equal to the higher. How long, in general, does an order of this kind take to complea^ between the order and the delivery, as. between the commercial res:dents^ for EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIKS. 891 for instance, and the weavers ; hi tween the time of giving the order and the ft, IJ', Co.r, execution of it, how long elapses? — it will depend entirely upon the Esq. quality of the goods provider, I— — >^ > How long, generally speaking, does it take to com pleat the whole investment of piec— goods ? — .f a large investment, near thirteen months and a half ; but it must he determined by the quantity of investment ordered by the Court of Directors. Generally speaking, can you say how long they take? — Generally, I think, about thirteen months and a h If; that is, until the period when the ships are dispatched, which is in March ; until within a few days of the dispatch of the ships, goods are coming down from the factories to the export warehouse. You have said, that if an article be not good enough for the Company's investment, it is rejected altogether ; do the Company allow any article to be admitted into their investment which would fall below either of the classes you have mentioned, would they not insist upon good goods ? — The commercial resident would reject goods inferior to the muster. Are those n usters consisting of what is called the best goods for the Company's sales ? — Undoubtedly, each of its respective assortment, the best of its cLss. Ts it so, that thev will deal in none but the best of their class?— I have always understood it to be the object of the Company to obtain the best goods that can possibly be produced. According to your experience, generally speaking, have they succeeded in that object?—! believe they have; I believe the goods of private, individuals are not equal to the goods of the Company. ■Could an investment of piece-goods be completed in the time that you have stated, by any other means than such previous arrangement and occasional advances, together with the circumspection of the commercial establishment? — 1 conceive we could not procure an investment without advances ; goods may be purchased in the bazar at Calcutta, but of an inferior quality. In your opinion, could goods be procured of that description of quality and extent ^n amount, without such a commercial establisl ment as you 5X2 kjve 802 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE 11- IV. Cox, have described, with the advances? — Certainly not without factories in the Esq interior of the country, and advances made from those factories to the I r~^ > weavers residing in the vicinity. Would you regard it as absolutely essential to procuring such invest- ments of good goods, that those factories should be superintended in some way, or controulcd, by ' uropean agents ?— conceive that thev should be superintended by commercial residents; the Company did contract with nadves, and the deliveries were, in general, inferior to goods since pro- duced under the present system. Are the weavers in any state of compulsion as to serving the Company, or are they at liberty to work for whom they please ? — They are at liberty to refuse the advances of the commercial resident, as we.l appear by the regulations of the Company. In point of practice, during your experience, have the weavers been at liberty to work for whom they pleased, to refuse those advances., or have they been in any state of compulsion to work for the Company ? — I have known weavers refuse the Company's advances. What has followed? — Of course they did not receive them. Did any degree of coercion follow on the part of the Company, or was any displeasure expressed towards them ? — Not that J know of. Have you any reason to believe, that under any circumstances of that kind, any degree of coercion or compulsion has been used towards them r — The government having by their regulations left it optional with the weavers to receive their advances, they cannot, I conceive, compel them to receive the advances should they decline it. According to your experience, those regulations have been acted upon ? — Yes, I believe they are still acted upon ; but I have not been in the commercial department for many years. To the best of your experience, and from your knowledge in the higher departments 5'ou have since fi led, have you any reason to believe that that degree of freedom has been exercised towards the weavers ?— ■ 1 believe the weavers are in a state of freedom. Is not this mode of advancing to the weavers a very ancient and uni- form EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 893 form practice ? — I believe it has existed from the establishment of the East R. IV Co.v, India Company ; I have seen samples dated in the year 1/5S or 1759, Esq. factory musters. ' v — ' So far from compulsion being even necessary, is it not a subject of desire and emulation among the weavers to supply the Company ? — They are desirous, in general, of being employed by the Company. Do they seek the Company's employment t — Generally they do. State why you think they prefer the Company's employment ? — The commercial resident may advance to the zemindars the land revenue which they maybe indebted to him, or even liquidate any of heir debts to prevent their being sued tor them in a court of justice ; of course he will exercise his own discretion, and will only advance to such weavers as are of 894 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE R. IV. Cor, When specifically required for that purpose, advances are generally made E^a. for the goods. "V" When specifically asked for for that purpose, the resident docs advance them money to pay their rent r — Sometimes he dv.es so, but every indi- vidua! will exercise his own discretion. If such an arrangement of investment as you have described were to be suspended or withdrawn for a period, what would be the consequence, would the weavers disperse r — They would not quit their habitation'*, but the}' would work for bazar sales, and certainly endeavour to seek employ-* n.ent from others. Would it be difficult or not fo" the Company to resume such a system, if it were abandoned for a period ? — After the weavers had obtained em- ployment with other individuals, it would be difficult for the commercial residents to collect the same number. Would it be a difficult tiling torenew the same system, if it were aban- doned tor any particular period ? — It would be difficult, 1 should imagine, to re-establish it to the same extent. If it were an object for the East India Company to remit the revenue of India by bills of exchange from individuals, instead <>f thus remitting them through the medium of merchandize and manufactures, do you ap- prehend that that mode and system could be easily or safely carried into execution? — The governments in India might probably obtain ome bills; but as the necessity of their obtaining bills would be known to the mer- chants, they would not obtain them, in all probability, upon very favour- able terms. Do you th'nk that such a mode would be safe to the Company, or one that they could Consistently and uniformly rely upon, to the extent of remit- ting the revenues ? — It musi depend upon the extent of the private trade between this country and India ; I should think the remittance by invest- ments is most secure for the Company. Do you think that such a mode of remittance (by bills of exchange) is one that the Company could consistently rely upon, as the means of the annual v EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. B95 annual remittance of their surplus revenue from India ? — It will depend R. W. Cjx, upon the amount of the surplus revenue to be remitted. Esq. Supposing it happened, generally speaking, to be about the amount which the investments from India have been within your observation and experience ? — I should then think it advisable to proceed in the established mode. Favour the Committee with your reasons why you think it would be better to persevere in the present established mode I — B. cause the Com- pany have factories established throughout the several districts ; the quali- ties of the goods are of the best, and they are enabled to obtain them through the medium of their own servants, while, in the mode proposed, they mu* have recourse to private individuals. Do vou not think their known necessity for obtaining so large an amount in bills of exchange, as their investments have generally amounted to, would occasion a combination among individuals, so as very materially to raise the price of those bills of exchange ? — In all probability it would. Is that your opinion, as a gentleman who has resided so long in India, and seen so much? — The wants of the Company being known, the ex- change would, of course, be unfavourable to the Company. "Would not the Company, under such circumstances, be almost wholly in the hands of such individuals for the purpose of remittance, supposing them to have given up the usual mode, and to have adopted that ? — I know of no other mode, except the remittance of bullion, which certainly is not advisable, as India does not produce the precious metals. If the Company then should be disappointed in the means of remitting the surplus revenues of India, through the medium of bills of exchange, after having been led to rely upen such a system, would it not, at all events, defeat the remittance home for that year at least, it being then too late to resort to the former mode of remitting by means of investment ? — If at the period at which the ships usually sail, bills could not be obtained, the investment could not then be sent. It always requiring a period of twelve or thirteen months previous ar- rangement ? — It requiring the period of some months, that will depend upon the nature of the investment, Supposing &QG MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE /». IV. Cox Supposing them to have relied upon bills of exchange, and to be disap. Esq. pointed, would it not be a matter of great difficulty and probable length of time, beiore they could re establish their former mode of remitting the surplus revenues of India by means of investments, supposing their factory system to have been abandoned, in confidence ot succeeding in the new system, and remitting by bills of exchange ? — In the event of their factories having been disposed of to private individuals, it would certainly be very difficult to re-establish the investment in the ensuing year. Is the Committee to understand, that if that whole arrangement you have been describing, of transmitting the orders, of the occupation of commercial residents, previous advances from month to month, and all those particulars hat have been described as necessary to obtain an invest- ment were abandoned, could it be resorted to again as effectually as it is now, in the course of a few months? — No, it could not. Would it be a matter of great difficulty and delay ? — That is more than I can speak to ; I imagine it would. Is sugar an article that is raised in any great degree in the parts of Ben- gal with which you are acquainted ? — It is raised in Bengal, in Behar, and in Benares generally ; but it is mure particularly produced in the countries ceded and conquered, during the government of Lord Wellesley, in Kohil- cund and in the Dooab. Is it an article that is or might be cultivated to an almost unlimited extent, as to quantity ? —In Rohilcund it may be produced to a vei-y great amount ; part of the Dooab is in an uncultivated state, but may be applied to the cultivation of sugar. M'ght it not be thus cultivated to an almost unlimited extent ? — I imag ne the cultisation might be considerably extended. Is it already so great as to be a very cheap article in India ? — It is cheap. Has it not been so cheap and common within your knowledge and ob- servation, as to be, in fact, used for building in some degree as a cement ? — In cement, and in the terraces with which the roofs are covered in India, molasses always form an ingredient ; it is considered as essential to the durability of the cement. A EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 897 A substitute for the finest British mortar? — It is mixed with lime R- W- ^ ox > and sand. . ^sq. (Examined by the Committee.) At the prices paid for cotton piece-goods in Bengal at the period of your leaving that country, do you conceive that a profit resulted from the sale of them in this country ? — I understand individuals lost by remittance in piece-goods. Do you know whether the Company's investments at that period were to the usual amount, or were they diminished in consequence of any fall in the price of piece-goods in this country ? —I believe the investment was diminished in consequence of the war, and perhaps from the order of investment being reduced at home ; but I cannot speak with certainty to that point. What is the penalty for non-performance of the contracts for cloths, on the part of the weavers r — A peon may be placed over him to quicken his deliveries ; and he is liable to be prosecuted in the courts of justice. Can you state the amount of the fine to which he is liable for non-per- formance of his contract ? — It is in the commercial regulations ; I do not recollect it. Are the weavers, generally speaking, men of property, or are they other- wise ? — Very few are men of property. In the event of a fine being imposed, how is it recovered ? — By process in the adawlut ; I believe, in the regulations a process is allowed in the court ; but I think it very injudicious to sue in a court a weaver who is in a state of poverty. In that case, what measures are taken for the recovery of the fine ? — I believe a fine cannot be imposed without having recourse to a court. Is the Committee to understand, that many cases occur in which the contracts are not fulfilled, and no fines are imposed ? — Such, I believe, is the case ; what I mean is, that the goods are not delivered within the time specified. 5 Y You 89* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE It. W. Cox, You have mentioned, that in this case peons are placed over the weavers Esq. to quicken their deliveries ; in what manner is that effected ? — By placing a peon at the houses of the defaulters, who will receive subsistence money at the rate of one anna per day from the defaulting weaver. What are the usual earnings of the weaver per diem? — I cannot state what profit he derives from the cloth ; it will depend upon the price of thread. Can you form no opinion what their daily or monthly profits may be ? — I shou'd suppose from three to five rupees per month; it will depend greatly upon the quality of the cloth manufactured. Js not an anna per day nearly two rupees per month ?— Certainly. How is this anna per day recovered from the weaver ? — He pays it to the- peon placed over him; this practice was authorized by the regulations ; I am not certain that it now exists. Are you of opinion that the earnings of the weaver are sufficient to enable him to support himself and family, and to pay thisanna per day, to be paid to the peon placed over him to quicken his deliveries ? — He may avoid it by a punctual delhery. ■ Are his earnings sufficient to enable him to support his family, and to pay the anna per day, without getting into debt ? — Not if the peon is to remain over him for any length of time ; I conceive it to be rather a re- gulation to be held out in terrorem than to be acted upon. Is it not very usual to act upon this regulation ? — I cannot speak to that fact; I do not believe I ever had recourse to it myself; I was a commer- cial resident four years. Is not two rupees a month to be considered rather a heavy penalty fop the breach of an engagement, which only produces a man from three to five ? — I think it is, but he is aware of it when he enters into the engagement. Be so good as to describe to the Committee what the usual occupation of those persons called peons is ? — They go round to the houses of the. weavers to see that they are employed at their looms. Is EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. «99' Is that the only purpose for which they are employed ?— To desire them R. JV. Cox, to attend at the factory with the cloths they have completed, and to attend ^ &q. to the receipt of advances. '" " Y " How are those peons armed ? — I do not know that they are armed at all ; the peons in Bengal I refer to. Is it not usual for them to carry a rattan in their hand ? — A rattan or stick they generally have, I believe. Are they ever known to make use of it ?— Possibly they may ; instance*' of affrays have occurred. State what affrays \ou refer to ? — Between the peons and the weavers. Do you mean to say, that the weaver is ever quickened in his labour by the rattan being applied to him ? — It is possible that a peon may ap- ply it. Have the peons any instructions so to apply it ? — It is not sanctioned by the regulations ; certainly cases of that kind described have occurred, and been complained of in the adawlut. Is it usual for the private merchants to place those peons over the weavers? — I cannot speak from my own knowledge; probably they have Deons ; I rather think they have. In the event of a complaint being made by the weavers of having peons so placed over them by the private merchants, would not the peons be re- moved ? — They would, if it was not authorized by the regulations. Would the peons placed by the commercial residents of the Company, be removed upon a similar complaint being made to the judge r — I be- lieve, by the regulations, the commercial residents are authorized to place them. Is there any such regulation, authorizing private merchants to place peons over the weavers ? — 1 am not aware of any. Is the commercial resident empowered to place a peon over the weaver, for any other purpose than his receiving the anna per day, in case of a non- compliance with his contract ?— Not that I am aware of. 5 Y a 900 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE ft. jy. Cox, Is he not placed there to quicken the deliveries? — Yes; peons are Esq. placed to quicken the deliveries. -y" Are not his instructions to quicken the deliveries, by demanding an anna a day in consequence of the non-compliance with the contract ; is he authorized to quicken the delivery in any other mode than by demanding the anna a day, in case of" a non-compliance with the contract ? — No, he is not. Are his instructions solely to wait upon the weaver, and to demand an anna per day of him until he fulfils his contract ? — I know of no other. Where does the peon take his post, in the inside or the outside of the house ? — I cannot state. If the peon was to use any violence towards the weaver, would he not be subject to be punished ; might not the weaver complain to the magis- trate ? — Certainly. Is it a very usual thing for a weaver to complain of a peon, or of any servant of the Honourable Company, to the judge? — I believe frequent instances have occurred, How is the weaver compelled to pay this anna per day, when he re- fuses to do it upon a simple demand ? — The practice of placing peons has been so general in the country, that 1 believe few instances of refusing to pay it occur; it has been a prevalent practice in India, undej" the native governments, to place peons. When refusal does occur how is the fine enforced ?— I do not know the process ; probably the peon may take it. Would he take it by force, or by inflicting any punishment upon him ; or how otherwise ? — He would require a delivery of it. Supposing the weaver to refuse, what is the practice of enforcing it? — I suppose he might lay hold of some brass utensil, which he would detain until the amount was paid him. What is the general condition of the weavers with whom you were much acquainted, in respect of pecuniary circumstances ? — Generally, not opulent. Are EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 901 Are they not, from habit, like all the other natives of India, very sub- R. IV. Cox, missive to persons in authority ? — In general they are. lisq. Are they not also, generally speaking, very patient of wrong ?— They generally are j there are, however, instances occur of their complaining. Can you state the number of weavers in the factory subject to your au- thority ? — I should suppose about fifteen hundred, the heads of families, not including their children and connexions, who work with them. Are they not, generally speaking, unable, from the low state of their pecuniary circumstances, to provide investments or quantities of goods, without receiving advances either from the Company or an individual r — They generally are, I believe. You are understood to have stated in a former part of your examination, that it occupied about thirteen months to complete an investment ; under these circumstances, is it not usual to make advances to the weavers for a second investment, before the first is completed ? — Advances are made for a specific number of pieces ; on the delivery of one or two pieces, a fur- ther advance is made ; for instance, supposing five pieces are advanced for, on the delivery of two, the weaver can obtain an advance for three or more. Whilst the weavers are under those advances from the Company, are they not compelled by the regulations to work for the Company alone, and precluded from employ in the service of private merchants or individuals ? — I cannot speak positively to that. Cannot you recollect whether this regulation was in force during the period you officiated as commercial resident in Bengal? — I believe it may have been ; it is the practice among the weavers to take advances from several individuals ; the larger the advance they can receive, the more ad- vantageous it is to them, in a country where the interest of money is high j and it will enable him to lay up a quantity ot grain at the harvest. Is not this receipt from a private merchant, whilst the weaver is under advance from the Company, a clandestine or illegal transaction, and can he not be forced to work for the Company and the Company alone, after having received such advance ? — Certainly, if the receipt of the private advances is not sanctioned by the regulations ; that is a question I cannot speak to ; I trust the Committee will allow me to refer to the regulations % there 902' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE R. W. Cor, there are various regulations, some of which have been enacted since I Esq. left the commercial department. ) You are understood to have stated, that if the weavers were to lose the Company's employment for any length of time, it might be a difficult matter to collect them again ; under this view of the case, is it not consider- ed a desirable object by commercial residents, generally, to keep them as much as possible in the Company's employ ? — Certainly, for the purpose of providing the investment. When the Company provide no investment from a particular factory, is it not usual, under those circumstances, for the commercial resident to be authorized to employ the weavers on his own account ? — He is. When the weavers are thus employed by the commercial resident, are they not considered to be as exclusively his servants, as they were before when in the employ of the Company ? — They are equally under en- gagements. Supposing the Company to withdraw their investment from a particular factory, and that private merchants did not enter the country for the pur- pose of purchasing goods for exportation, would the internal demand of the country for the goods manufactured by the weavers, be sufficient to give them employment, or would they in such case be reduced to a state of dis- tress ? — I conceive the demand of the country would not be sufficient, and that they would resort to agriculture. Do you conceive this to be owing to the general state of poverty in the country ? — A large export trade having existed for a long time in Bengal, if that is suppressed, it would be felt in the same manner as the non- export trade from this country is in its staple manufactures of iron and woollen. As far as you have observed the inhabitants of the country generally, in, Burdwan, are they better off in point of circumstances than you have al- ready described the weavers to be ? — The peasantry of Burdwan are pecu- liarly opulent. Notwithstanding this opulence described by you, is the Committee to understand from your former answer, that there would still be no demand to give sufficient employment to the weavers, in the event of the factory being given up by the Company ? — In the event of the factory being given up EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 90S up by the factor, the private merchants, I.apprehend, would resort there, R. IV. Cox, and manufacture the goods of the district, for the purpose of bringing them Esq. to Calcutta. Be good enough to describe what you mean by the opulence of the pea- santry ; what you call an opulent peasant ? — They are better clothed and fed than in many other districts. What do you suppose to be the amount of their gains daily, monthly op yearly ? — That must depend upon the price of grain. To what does it amount in the money of the country? — When I men- tioned the peasantry, I ought to have included the smaller land-holders, the petty Talookdars. Can you state the amount of a peasant's gains in Burdwan per month I —I cannot specifically. Do you believe it to exceed three rupees a month ? — I should think it may, in some cases. Generally ? — Probably it may in Burdwan. Much ? — From four to five perhaps ■> but I cannot state how much ac- curately. Do the weavers prefer being employed by the Company or by indivi- duals ? — In general, I believe, they prefer being employed by the Com- pany, in consequence of the large advances they receive from them. Does each weaver agree to execute all the different description of piece- goods which you class under A, B, C, and D, or does each weaver execute a different description of goods, as they are required? — The advance is generally made upon the letter B, and according to the quality of the de- livery will be the proceed. Does the weaver agree to execute a portion of each of the different classes under A, B, C, and D? — No, he does not ; he cannot ; he cannot obtain the thread for any particular letter ; and after he has obtained the thread, it takes some time to sort it. Supposing 12 or 13 months to be the time required for the weaver to execute <)04 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE R. IV. Cox, execute the orders from the resident, in what proportions, and at what Esq. periods, would the advance be made to the weaver? — Thirteen months I stated as the time necessary to complete the order of investment ; in general, a month or six weeks is sufficient to complete his piece ; but the time will depend upon the quality of goods; a fine piece, such as is ma- nufactured at Dacca, will require five or six months to execute it. Supposing a piece of goods to require six months to execute it, in what period will the advance be made ? — He will receive, within two or three rupees, the whole amount of the price ; or two pieces are generally sent, because he sorts the thread into two qualities, one for the A, and another for the B. Is the price of rice lower in Burdwan than in other parts of India ? — i I am not aware of that ; but it is in the vicinity of Calcutta, and its pro- duce is sold to much advantage in consequence of that. [The Witness withdrew. [The following Paper was delivered in, and read :] » A. D. 1793. REGULATION XXXI. " A REGULATION/or re-enacting, with Modifications and Amendments, the " Rules passed on the lid July J7S7, and subsequent Dates, for the Conduct " of the Commercial Residents and Agents, and all Persons employed or ■" concerned in the Provision oj the Company's Investment. — Passed on the " 1st of May 1793 ; corresponding with the 2 1st By soak 1 ,'200 Bengal Era; " the 6th Bysaak 1, 200 Fussily ; the 2lst Bysaak 1,200 Willaily, the 6l/i " Bysaak 1,S50 Sumbut ; and the iSth Bamzaan 1,207 Higeree. " THE nature and extent of the commercial concerns of the Company, " render it necessary that rules should be prescribed for preventing manu- " facturers, or other persons in their employ, embezzling the money ad- " vanced to them, or disposing of t ue goods provided with it to individuals, " and for ensuring the delivery of the goods agreeably to their engagements. " No well-founded objection can bj offered to such rules by the manufac- " turers, or othsrs to whom they may extend, whilst they at the same time " establish it as a fundamental principle, that no person shall be compelled (( to work for the Company, and that those who may engage in their employ, " shall always be at liberty to relinquish it, after performing the engage- 3 J * " ments EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 1)05 " ments into which they may have voluntarily entered. It is equally re- " quisite, on general principles, that precautions should he taken to prevent " the rules adopted for the above-mentioned purposes, being rendered sub- «« servient to the private views of the officers employed in the provision of f* the Investment, to the injury of the manufacturers, and the prejudice of " the interests of the Company, both in their commercial capacity, and as " rulers of the country. As the most effectual mode of guarding against such " abuses, and of ensuring justice to the manufacturers and others in their " dealings with the Company, the Governor General in Council has deter- " mined, that the rules to which persons engaging to furnish goods tor the " Company's Investment may be subjected, shall be incorporated with the " laws and regulations for the internal government of the country, and that " the officers"em ployed in the immediate superintendence of the provision of " the Investment, shall be liable to be sued for any deviation from those " rules in the courts of judicature, that every person who may deem himself ved by their official acts, whether originating with themselves, or aasrrievc done in consequence of orders from the superior authorities, may be able " to obtain redress with the same facility as for an injury received from any " individual. The following Rules, being the Rules passed by the Governor- " General iu Council on the 23d July "nST, and subsequent dates, with " modifications and amendments, adapted to the principles above stated, have. " been accordingly enacted. " II. Weavers not indebted, nor under engagements to the Company, " shall not be compelled to enter into their employ ; and weavers indebted, " or under engagements to the Company, on duly discharging such debts or " engagements, shall not be compelled to enter into fresh engagements. " III. First. Weavers who may engage for the provision of any part of " the Company's Investment, are to consider themselves as engaging under " the following Rules and Conditions. " Second. All engagements with weavers, are to be made in writing, attested " by at least two credible witnesses. One copy of the writing is to remain " with the commercial resident or his officers, and the remaining copy with " the other party to the engagement. " Third. Weavers under engagements to the Company, and who may not " intend to take further advances, shall give at least a fortnight's notice of " their intention. " Fourth. Weavers indebted to the Company, who have received ad- " vances from them, or come under engagements to them, shall, in dis- " charge of such debt, advances, or engagements, deliver cloths, according " to agreement. They shall on no account give to any other person or " persons whatever, European or Native, either the labour or the produce " engaged to the Company ; and if they have not fulfilled their engagements " by the period agreed on, they shall not work for newer engagements, nor " for bazar sales, until those engagements are completed. " Fifth. When any weaver fails to deliver, by the stipulated periods, the " cloths for which he may have engaged, the commercial resident shall be " at liberty to place peons upon him, in order to quicken his deliveries, " and prevent his infringing the two restrictions in the latter part of clause " fourth. 5 Z " Sixth (( (C « 966 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE / " Sixth. If, notwithstanding the restrictions in the latter part of clause fourth, any weaver shall by himself, or by any other person, sell cloths to private merchants, Europeans or Natives, or to dealers or agents of what- " ever description, whilst he is deficient in his stipulated deliveries on ac- " count of the Company's Investment, he shall be liable to be prosecuted in the dewanny adawlut, and upon proof of the fact, he shall be adjudged to forfeit to the Company all that the produce of the cloths so sold, rated either at what he got for them, or their bazar value, shall exceed the or- " dinary prime cost of the thread in them, with costs of suit besides, and " moreover be obliged to complete his engagements. " Seventh. Weavers possessed of more than one loom, and entertaining " one or more workmen, shall be. subject to a penalty of thirty-five percent. " on the stipulated price of every piece of cloth that they may fail to deliver " according to the written agreement which they may have executed, in " addition to the repayment of the money advanced for the same. " Eighth. The penalty specified in the preceding clause, shall be sued for " in the dewanny adawlut, and shall be recoverable, on the agreement with " the weaver, and the failure in his deliveries, being proved. " IV. A list or register of the weavers employed in the provision of the " Company's Investment in every purgunnah, specifying their places of " abode, shall be fixed up by the commercial resident in the cutcherry of that " pergunnah, and shall be corrected at the beginning of every week or " month, according to the alterations that may have happened in the week " or month preceding. The officers of the cutcherry are to give immediate " permission for the exhibition of the list, and the commercial resident shall " transmit a copy of it in the native languages once in every three months " to the judge of the zillah. " V. Petsons procuring from weavers in the Company's emplov, by the " offer of ready money, or under the pretence of previous enecurity, and the defendant himself shall not be able to lind security which " the resident may deem responsible, he is to cause the defendant to accom- u pany the officer of the court to the court, or, if no officer shall have been " sent with the summons, to appear in person before the court, that he may " be dealt with in the same. manner as other defendants not giving the required " security. " Second. The residents are to empower the head officer at each of the " different aurungs or kotees subordinate to them, and also an authorized " vakeel of the dewanny adawlut, or any other person whom they may think " it proper 10 station at the place at which the court may be held, to execute " securities for the persons, and in the cases specified in the preceding " clause. The residents are to be careful to keep the judges furnished with " a list of the persons so empowered, specifying also the place at which they " may usually reside, and the judges are authorized, in instances in which " they may deem it proper, either from the distance of the place of abode of " the resident from the place at which the party summoned may reside, or " other circumstances, to order the summons to be inclosed to one of the " persons so empowered to become security, instead of transmitting it to the " resident himself, under the preceding clause, in which case, such person " shall proceed in the same manner as the resident is directed to proceed, ** where the summons may be sent immediately to him. " Third. If anv person shall prefer a suit in the dewanny adawlut against =*' a trOsier or other manufacturer, or any officer or person employed in the " provision of the Company's Investment, without specifying that the defen- *' dant is so employed, and the summons shall in consequence be ordered to " be served on the defendant, in the same manner as on other defendants, " the officer serving the same, upon the circumstance of the defendant being " so employed, being notified to him by the resident, or any of his officers, «' or by the defendant himself, shall deliver the summons to the nearest person " empowered to execute the securities in the cases specified in clause first, «' whether the resident, or the head officer of an aurung or kotee, who «? shall proceed in the manner prescribed to the resident in that clause. If " the officer shall receive the notification of the defendant being in the Com- ♦' pany's employ, from the defendant only, and shall entertain doubts " of his being so emploved, or if he shall not entertain any doubt of his " being so employed, but shall apprehend that he will ab-cond whilst he *' (theofficer) is repairing with the summons to the person empowered to " execute the securities, he shall, in such case, carry the defendant, with the •• summons, to the person so empowered, and shall not release him, until " the required securities have been executed. " Fourth. In eases in which a weaver or other manufacturer, or any officer '« or person employed in the provision of the Company's Investment, shall ** be charged before the magistrate with a bailable offence, the warrant shall •' be served in the manner directed in the preceding clauses with regard to -** summonses in civil cases, with this difference, that the warrant shall re- " quire EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. £09 w quire (lie party summoned to appear in person, or by vakeel, as the ma- " glsfcrlte! may think proper, and shall speedy t.ie amount of the sum for " which the security or recognizance for the appearance of the defendant is " to Ik? given, and the amount of Which shall be regulated by the magistrate •* according to the nature of the charge, and the situation and circumstances " in life of the defendant. " Fifth: In all the ca«es specified in the preceding clauses of this Section, " the resident or head officer through whom the summons or warrant may be " served, shall return orr the back of it in what manner it has been served, " and by whom the security has been executed. " Sixth. If a charge shail be preferred to a magistrate against any weaver li or other manufacturer, or any officer or person employed in the provision " of the Company's Investment, for an offence that is not bailable, and there " shall appear to the magistrate sufficient ground for apprehending the person K so charged, the warrant for his apprehension shall require him to appear u immediately in person, and shall be executed in the same manner as upon •* persons not so employed. But the officer, after securing the offender, is M to give notice of his apprehension to the resident, or the head officer of the " nearest atirung or kotee. " Seventh. The darogahs of police are to observe the rules prescribed in ** daises fourth and sixth of this Section, in complaints that may be preferred " to them against weavers or other manufacturers, or officers or persons in " the employ of the Corn pari}'. " Eighth. In all cases in which the residents, or their head officers em- " powered for that purpose, shall become security under any of the clauses Jt of this Section, for the appearance of any person employed in the Invest- 11 ment, or for the. fees of his vakeel, or shall declare any person whom the " party summoned may offer as securit} 7 , to be responsible, the resident is " to be considered personally answerable for the due performance, of thecon- " ditions of the security, in the event of the party for whom the security " may be given not performing them himself, or, where the party himself " shall have given the security, and it shall have been declared responsible " by the resident, or his head officer of an aurung or kotee, in the event of " the party or his surety not performing them. It will accordingly be the *■ business of the residents to take care to employ creditable person* only as " head officers at the several aurungs and kotees to superintend the business, *" and become security, and to furnish them with proper: instructions, and to " take such security from them, as they (the residents) may deem suflicient " to indemnify themselves for the consequences that may result from any " abusj which such officers may commit in the exercise of their trust. " Ninth. Summonses to weavers or other manufacturers, or officer:, or any u persons employed in the Company's Investment, as witnesses, shall be " served in the same manner as if they were parties in the cause, but the " judges are to be careful not to summon such persons excepting when their tl attendance shall be ab>olutelv necessary, and on their appearance, to have " them examined and dismissed with all practicable dispatch, so that they " may be absent from the business of the Investment as short a time as pos- ** sible. u Tenth. The residents, and their head officers, arc declared liable to be " sued. 910 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE " sued in the dewanny adawlut, should they apply any of the rules in the " preceding clauses of this Section regarding summonses and warrants issued " again -t persons employed in the Investment, to persons not bona fide so " employed. And as the rules contained in those clauses, are. intended " only to prevent unnecessary interruption to the Investment, where it can '• be avoided without impeding the course of justice, the judges and magis- 11 tratt s are empowered, in particular cases in which it tnay appear to them " indispensably necessary for the purposes ol justice, to order the personal " attendance of any native officer or person in anywise concerned or em- " ployed in the Investment, whether he may be a party or a witness in the " suit or prosecution, notwithstanding any thing that may be said to the con-. " trary in those clauses, and to cause process to be executed upon him for " that purpose, in the same manner as upon other individuals ; but in such " cases, the judges and magistrates arc to record their reasons for deviating *' from the prescriptions contained in the said clauses, which are to be con- " sidered as the general rules for issuing and executing such summonses " and warrants, and in the summons or warrant, they are to specify that it " has been specially ordered to be so executed, in virtue of the discretionary " power vested in them by this clause; and they are moreover strictly en- " joined to refrain from every unnecessary exercise of this discretionary *' power. " XI. All complaints of weavers against individual traders, and vice " versa, are to be considered as matters of a private nature between the " parties, who are to have recourse to the proper courts of judicature, should " they have any ground of complaint against each other for breach of en- «' gagements, or other cause. The courts are to decide according to the " tenor of the engagements between the parties, if any engagements exist, " and the regulations. But where weavers are employed at the same time " by more than one foreign or private agent, they shall deliver first to the " previous contractor, and afterwards to the others, according to priority " of engagements. " XII. First. Decisions in favour of private merchants, or other indi- ". viduals, against weavers who were in the employ of the Company at the " time they entered with such private merchants or individuals into the " agreements on which they are sued (their having been so employed being " proved by the lists of the Company's weavers published at the cut- " cherries, and transmitted to the judge of the dewanny adawlut as direct- " ed in Section IV, as well as by the dates of the respective agreements and " transactions consequent to them) shall be made with a saving to the Com- •' pany of their claims on such weavers, which claims also are to be proved " in court. And that this rule may be carried into effect, before execution • c follows at the suit of an individual against any weaver in that list, the Com- " pany's commercial resident shall be desired to state whether such weaver " was in the employ of the Company when the agreement on which he may " be cast was made, as also whether the Company have any and what de- *' mand upon him, and to make proof of the same ; which being satisfied or " secured, the sum decreed against him in favour of the individual shall next " be made good from his property, but his person shall not be liable to at- " tachment. « XIII. EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 91 1 " XIII. Gomastahs, deedars, mokeems, and all native servants and per- *' sons of whatsoever description, employed under the Company's factories " or aimings in the provision or their Investment, guilty of changing the " Company's cloths; accepting ot money from individuals for abetting or " conniving at the alienation of them by the weavers ; writing false balances " in the Company's accounts ; embezzling otherwise the property entrusted " to them ; or exacting money in any shape from weavers to whom advances " are made ; shall, on conviction in the court of dewanny adawlut to which " they may be amenable, forfeit double the amount of the value of the pro- " pertv, or the money which they may have embezzled, alienated, or ex- " acted, and shall be further liable tD imprisonment for any term that the " court may juils-e proper, not exceeding twelve months, and upon the " circumstances being represented by the Board of Trade to the Governor " General in Council, he will, if it shall appear to him proper, declare the " offender incapable of serving Government in any capacity. " XIV. All the rules in this Regulation regarding weavers employed for the " Company, are to be considered to extend, in their principles and meaning, " to the manufacturers and other persons employed in the provision of raw " silk, and of the other articles of the Company's Investment provided within " the Provinces of Bengal, Behar, or Orissa. " XV. First. The following Rules are prescribed for the conduct of com- " mercial Residents carrying on trade tor themselves. " Second. The Resident shall supply, or ensure the Company's demand " for goods, as far as the ability of his aurung will go, before he provides any " for himself. " Third. He shall carefully and avowedly distinguish to the manufacturers, " between the Company's provision and his own. " Fourth. He shall give them the price for which they may choose to deal " with him, without making the Company's prices a standard for his own " trade. " Fifth. He shall not make use of any influence he may possess, as the " Company's representative, to induce the manufacturers to work for him in " preference to other dealers. " Sixth. He shall be subject to the same regulations, in case of disputes " with manufacturers; as other private traders. " Seventh. He shall not take any commission for agents or others, but deal " merely on his own stock as a merchant. " Eighth. He shall not carry on any trade in his aurung, directly " or indirectly, in the name of any other person. " Ninth. Whatever goods he may provide of the produce of the aurung " where re is stationed, shall not be sold there, nor sent to any foreign " settlement, but shall be consigned to some other place, and if brought to " Calcutta, or sent by manjee to the upper provinces, shall be registered in " his name in the custom-house books. " Tenth. He shall state to the Board of Trade by the 1 5th of December in " every year, the gross amount of the money invested or to be invested by " him on his own account, as nearly as he can judge of th J same, from the •' 1st Maj' preceding to the 30th April following, and the Board of Trade " shall thereupon communicate to the Governor General in Council any re- " marks that may appear to them proper. " XVI. gis MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE " XVI. The com mercialresidentsand their native officers of every description, " are declared liable to be sued in the dewanny adawlut by weavers or " others with whom they may use compulsion to make them enter into the " Company's employ, or whose names they may improperly insert in the " list specified in Section IV., or whom they may not pay for their cloths " or goods according to the engagements entered into between them and the " Company, or who may not obtain in due time a fair settlement of ac- " counts, or who may suffer unjust exactions from peons put over them; i( or for any breach of this Regulation, or any other Regulation regarding the " pro-vision of the Investment, printed and published in the manner directed " in Regulation XLL, 1T93. In all such cases, whether the act complained *' of shall have been done by the resident or any of his officers, the party ag- " grieved is in the first instance to state his complaint to the resident, and " in the event of his refusing to afford the required redress, or omitting to " grant it within a reasonable time, the complainant may then sue the re- " sident, whether the injur}' complained of shall have been done by himself " or his officer. But the courts are not to receive any suit that may be pre- ferred against a resident or any of his officers, unless the complainant shall prove to the satisfaction of the court, by oath, or by any other mode which " the court may deem satisfactory, that he applied to the resident for redress, " and that he refused to afford the redress required, or omitted to grant it " within a reasonable time. Either party dissatisfied with the award or de- " cision of a resident, on any complaint made to him under this Section, " may appeal from it to the dewanny adawlut. " XVII. In suits instituted against a resident or any of his officers, under " the preceding Section, and where the act complained of shall not have " been done pursuant to special orders from the Board of Trade, or the " Governor General in Council, the party complained against is to appoint " one of the authorized vakeels of the court to defend the suit at his own " risk. " XVIII. The residents may take upon themselves the defence of any suits " which may be instituted against their officers, but in such cases the resi- *' dents are to be answerable for the decree of the court, in the same manner " as if the suit had been originally instituted against them. " XIX. When any process shall be issued by a court of civil judicature to a V commercial resident, the judge or the register of the court, is to transmit " it under a sealed cover, addressed to the resident in the form of a letter, " and superscribed with his name and official appellation. The resident is " immediately to acknowledge the receipt of the process by an endorsement to " that effect on the instrument, and to return it under a sealed cover, ad- " dressed to the judge or tiie register of the court from which it may have " issued. " XX. Where the Board of Trade shall approve of decisions given against "_the commercial residents or their officers, in suits in which they may have " been engaged in their official capacity, and which may not have been " prosecuted or defended by them, pursuant to orders from the Board, or " the Governor General in Council, they are empowered to make the resi- " dent, or his officer b}' whom the act complained of may have been done, *' responsible for the whole or any part of the costs and damages awarded by " the EAST INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 9 13 Are the Weavers compelled to enter into engagements with the Com- Mufigo Dick, pany ? — On the contrary, it is considered the greatest grievance that can Esq. occur to the country, the secession of the Company's investment ; it diffuses \ y ' happiness throughout the country, as promoting the circulation ot mo- ney, which they could not otherwise obtain ; the thread is generally spun by the females of the cultivating cast of inhabitants, and consequents it circulates very widely throughout the country the money advanced on ac- count of the investment. State what you mean by the secession of the Company's investment r — When there is an interruption in the advances. Do you consider the certainty of the Company's employment, as the means of insuring to them voluntary offers of service by the weavers ? — I certainly do. Will you say whether the Madras government has enacted regulations of a nature to protect the weavers against any oppression on the part of the commercial resident or his assistants ? — The Madras government have enacted regulations of the most liberal kind, extremely well calculated to protect the weavers against the possibility of oppression, were they not capable of protecting themselves. Were the weavers to suffer any oppression from the commercial resident or his assistants or agents, by any act either directly at variance with the letter of the regulations in question, or inconsistent with their spirit, can you say whether complaints would probably be preferred by the suffer- ers to the government? — I have no doubt they would ; but I speak more from opinion than actual observation, because those regulations are of so tecent a date, that I have hardly experienced their operation, it is only within these few years; indeed they were hardly promulgated when I left Madras. You state yourself to have no doubt that if oppression were suffered, complaints would be made ; have you any doubt that if complaints were made redress would be afforded r — 1 have not the least doubt. Comparing the situation of the labouring weavers with that of the other labouring classes of the Indian population, which, if either, has the advan- tage in point of comfort ? — The weaver has the means of being more com- fortable, but he has generally a very dissipated turn of mind, and squan- ders away with very little consideration his gains ; they are very much addicted 9'20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mini go Dick, addicted to gaming, and co- k -fighting, particularly, is a very favourite Esq. amusement, upon which they stake almost every thing belonging to them. ""V" Do you conceive that these habits of dissipation arise from any defect in the existing commercial system of the Company ? — They are habits of very old date ; they do not arise out of any particular system ; the business of the Company has added very much to their comfort if they would avail themselves of it. You have stated in a former answer, that the weaving classes in India have the means of living more comfortably than the other labouring classes of that country ; what, in point of comfort, is the general state of the Indian peasantry, as compared with the situation of the peasantry in Eu- ropean countries ? — From my observation, they are more comfortable in every respect ; their wants are fewer, and they have the means of gratify- ing those wants much more within their reach. Labour is very cheap in India, is it not? — Labour is cheap, and so are also their rice and provisions of every description in proportion. Do you then consider the cheapness of Indian labour as a symptom of wretchedness among the people of India ? — No, I think not, by any means. Do the wages of labour which the Indian people receive, fully supply their wants ? — Fully ; the wages vary very much in different parts of the country ; for instance, at the Presidency, where labour is dear, provisions are also dearer than in the interior ; the one seems to regulate the other in all narts of the country I have been in. During your experience, have you observed whether any change either in the way of improvement or otherwise, has taken place in the condition of that part of the native population who are employed by the Company ? — I think, generally, their situation has improved ; but speaking particu- larly of the manufacturers, it is impossible to a grea; degree to improve their situation ; for instance, a weaver after getting his ad. ance, resorts to the weekly markets all over the countiy to procure matetials for his web, and alter having procured what he thinks will be requisite for the piece of cluth in his loom, he too often expends what may remain in a cock-fight, or any other gamb'ing game that is to be found in the market. On the whole, do you consider the employ furnished by the Company to EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 921 to the weaving classes, as a great advantage to those classes, or not f — I Mmigo Dick, am decidedly of opinion, that it is very much t.j their advantage. ks " ' r Can you stite whether there are any native merchants at Madras, or in the Northern Circars, who would be able to provide tor ornate tra eis such an investment as the Company procure ? — Private traders would find in every village, agents perfectly prepared to receive their money at all times; but I think the private agent would generally be disappointed in his expectations of goods of standard quality ; when they were delivered he would find them very inferior to what he expected ; it is the study of the commercial servants, and their only labour almost, to prevent and to coun- teract the abuses of the native agents when they are employed as well as the manufacturers. What is the nature of the abuses to which you allude ? — The nature of the abuses is furnishing goods of a quality very inferior to the standard on which the contract was made. Do you mean to imply that the manufacturers would seek an unfair ad- vantage in dealing with private traders ? — Certainly, they would take tvery opportunity of imposing upon the uninformed. Are such piece-goods as the Company import, to be purchased in India ready made, or without previous arrangement ? — It frequently o cur-, that the private agent tempts a weaver to sell from his loom at an increased price, the goods that he has previously manufactured with the Company's money, and by their order a previous advance is uniformly required ; unless the private agent can find his way into the manufacturing villages, and obtain there goods by giving an advance of price, it is impossible to pro- vide an investment to any extent. Could a private trader resorting to India find in the markets of that country such piece-goods as the Company ordinarily import ? — Not to any extent ; and at a very advanced price. Were it proposed that the Indian governments should make their an- nual remittances to the Company at home, through the medium of bills of exchange purchased from private European traders in India, is it your opinion that the Company could prudently trust to such a channel of re- mittance ? — I should think not, from the tedious process that is requisite for the provision of an investment; in the first place, the difficulty that a private trader would experience from the competition in every village 6 B where 922 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mango Dick, where the goods were provided ; where there were three or four agents to E=q. provide goods instead of one, the price would naturally be increased, or ° the quality be debased ; and likewise there wt .io\v JAinigo Dick, allowed. i si. I /* » Do the invoices sent from the factories to the presidency include all charges of package, conveyance, and freight ? — Certainly. Do the invoices sent from the presidency to England include all charges incurred up to the time of embarkation ? — The expense of the establish- ment, I believe, is not put upon the invoice, nor the resident's salary ; but every other charge incidental to the provision of the goods is upon the invoice. Is the invoice charged with the customs ? —No. What customs do individuals pay upon piece-goods on exporting them to England ? — 1 do not exactly know, as I never paid customs ; 1 know that there is a customs duty upon the exportation of piece-goods ; but how much I really cannot say. Is there an inland duty paid upon piece goods by individuals? — Latterly the greatest part of the inland duties have been entirely abolished ; I believe there is a duty collected upon the importation of goods by land to Madras. Is there not also an export duty on the same goods :- — I cannot exactly say, 1 rather think there is ; but the regulations of government will shew much more distinctly than I can do ; not having been a private trader myself, I cannot speak to that. Do you know the amount of the inland duty which you state to have been paid by individuals? — i cannot state it with precision. What is the usual price of piece-goods provided by individuals, com- pared with those provided by the Company's servants ? — Nominally cheaper, but in fact much dearer. Do you mean to include in this estimate the duties in the costs to indi- viduals, and all tnose charges which are not usually paid by the Company? —No I do not ; 1 mean by a comparison of the goods of the same de- scription : a buyer will hud the quality of goods of the same denomi- nation provided by the Company, generally superior to what are furnished by private individuals. Then 92S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Muu°n D.'c/i, Then, of course, those goods would s^ 11 for more money at the Pre- l.so. sidency than those provided by individuals, would they not ? —I t.nnk 1 v ' they would. What advance do von think might be obtained upon the Company's -goods, if sold at the Presidency to private merchants: — That is impossi- ble to say distinctly ; it depends upon the demand. Can you form a judgment, as they are superior in qu lity, and as piece- goods are generally in demand what profit they might be sold at at the Presidency on their original costs and charges? — 1 can mention an ex- periment that was mace to allow the commercial resident)* to become the agents for individuals ; the co npelition which had, at different times, bit n so prejudicial to the provision of the Company's invest m< nt, was endea- voured to be removed, by allowing individual-, a portion or ihe invest- ment provided by the commercial residents, on the c ndition of their ad- vancing their money six months previous to the period stipulated for the delivery of such proportion, and paying to the Company an advance of twelve and a half percent, upon the goods delivered at the Presidency; ■this twelve and a half per cent, was divided in this way, five per cent, as usual was allowed the commercial resident for his agency, seven and a 'half per cent, for bad debts, which sometimes occur for the risk of con- veying it to the Presidency by sea during war, which is considerable ; in short it was to cover all the charges incidental to the provision of the in- vestment, except those that occur upon the lace of the invoice, as bleach- in", packing, &c. ; this mode of provision was considered so advanta- geous to the individuals at that time at Madras, that a very large subscrip- tion, as large as the Company were willing to receive, was immediately filled, and I believe upon the arrival of the goods in this couniry, com- pared with the goods that had at the same time been provided by private agents, they were found to be very superior in quality. "Were those goods provi led by the commercial residents upon the same terms to the Company as the goods generally procured for the Company's own investments? — They were precisely the same ; so much so, that no division took place till their arrival at the Presidency, when. a portion was allotted to the private traders, and the rest to the Company. Then the Committee is to understand, that the Company provide their goods better, and at the same tune cheaper, th n the private merchants can obtain their's ? — Certainly; the Company wno are in the constant habit of employing the weavers, have a right to expect better treatment than EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 929 than a casual trader ; and the commercial residents, from long experience, Mungo Lick are better calculated to counteract the abuses so frequent in the provision Lsq. of an investment. y What abuses do you allude to? — Arising from the depravity of the manufacturers, who take every opportunity of imposing on uninformed customers. Have the weavers the option of disposing of rejected goods in the market ? — Certainly, if they can shew they have the means of settling their accounts by a money payment, or within a due time engaging to furnish a piece of standard quality. What is the state of the pecuniary circumstances of the weavers, gene- rally, under the Madras presidency ? — As comfortable as their dissipated habits will admit. What may they earn monthly each ? — The investment is provided from Cape Comorin to Ganjam, a distance, I believe, of 1,500 miles, where the price of labour varies so much from the price of provisions being higher or lower, that it is impossible to say, distinctly, what a weaver earns monthly ; but from my own observations I can state, that a weaver is more comfortable in his circumstances than the other classes of the inhabitants of the same level. Cannot you form an opinion of the probable amount earned by the wea- vers generally i — No, I cannot; but I am persuaded that it is equal to a comfortable subsistence ; the price of labour in different places vanes so much, I cannot speak to the sum ; but it is their own fauit if they are in want when the Company's investment is on foot. What is the penalty attached to a breach of contract with the Company, on the part of the weavers ? — The penalty attached is the reduction of price; if he delivers his goods agreeable to the sample he gets a higher price, if they are inferior of course he gets less; but it is impossible that a weaver can work to a positive loss, as he lias seldom any property of his own, and depends almost entirely upon the advances that are made to him. Then is the Committee to understand that the weavers have the means of a comfortable subsistence for themselves and families only, and nothing G C beyond 930 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE fljungo Dick, beyond that ? — They will not suffer themselves to have much beyond that, Esq. for it is generally dissipated in various ways ; any thing that they get be- v ■< ' yond their subsistence is lost in cock-fighting or in some other gambling game. Are not fines sometimes impo ed upon the weavers ? — I cannot speak distinctly to that ; I can only say it would be very injudicious in the com- mercial resident to impose a fine ; it would be taking from him the money he had been advancing: it is not his own. Are not fines allowed bv the Regulations ? — For form sake they may be allowed, and no doubt they are ; I am not very well versed with the pre- cise Regulations ; but I believe they have been very seldom exacted. In the event of delaying the delivery of the goods, what means are taken to hasten it ? — -The means usually adopted on such occasions are the send- ing to the weaver and requiring greater punctuality in the performance of his engagements. In what manner is this done ? — Upon my word I cannot say exactly in what manner ; there are certain people attached to the different stations ; upon the complaint of one of those native agents that a weaver is refractory, or that he is inattentive to his business (it may occur once or twice in a season) a weaver is sent for to the factory, and taken to task for his negligence, and desired from the authority of the government to be more attentive lo his duty. Is it usual to place peons over the weavers to quicken their deliveries of goods ? — I believe that is admitted by the Regulations, but very seldom practised ; because it would be unavailing, it would be taking from the weaver the money given to him; for a peon never goes to the house of a native without a commission at the same time to exact a sum equal to the expenditure for his daily food, commonly called batta. What is the usual sum so exacted per diem ? — It is impossible to say, because it varies ; in different parts of the country it is equal perhaps to a seer of rice, and that varies in price so much ; it is a halfpenny in one place, a penny in another, and three pence in another, perhaps. Is it usual for the Company to add interest to the cost of the piece- goods ? — Interest does not appear upon the invoice, I believe. Have EAST-INDrA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. Q31 Have you quitted the East-India Company's service? — I have no inten- Mungo Dick, tion nor any idea, certainly, of returning to India again. Esq. If, in consequence of the trade being opened in the manner proposed by the Resolutions, the commercial residents at the several stations in British India, now acting under the sole controul and appointment of the supreme government there, were removed, and persons not under the sole controul and appointment of the supreme government, were to carry on the com- merce of British India, what effect do you think that change would pro- duce upon the natives of India, who have hitherto seen no individual there, that did not act solely under the controul and appointment of government ? — It is impossible to say, I think, what line of conduct those gentlemen would pursue ; the commercial residents at present are controuled by the government, and from long experience they conduct themselves in a way, generally, that gives satisfaction to the inhabitants : I do not think the situation of a private trader would be so respectable, or be held in that reverence that the servant of the government now experiences in his situa- tion there. Do you imagine that the natives, who have hitherto been accustomed to look at Europeans as solely acting under the government, seeing Euro- peans there acting independently of the government, would have any, and if so, what effect upon the estimation in which they hold the government ? — I do not know that it would affect the respectability of government by any means, if the European agents conducted themselves with propriety ; it would be inconvenient to the government, certainly. Do you imagine that the natives of the country who have been accus- tomed to an undivided and summary power, would, if they saw any per- sons existing in the country that were not totally dependent upon that summary power, feel the same respect towards the government ? — I think they must be dependent upon the government. Would they be dependent upon the government if they were not acting under the sole controul and appointment of it r — I conceive that no indi- vidual is independent of the government in any country ; he must be sub- ject to the laws and regulations of the government of the country where he resides. Do you suppose, that if commercial transactions, instead of being con- ducted solely by the commercial agents appointed by and under the con- troul of government, were carried on by persons not so appointed, and 6C 2 not 982 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mungo Dick, not so much under the controul of government, that in such case the na- tives or" India would look up to that government with the same respect * ' they do now, when they see no person immediately under the controul and appointment of government ? — It would certainly lessen the respecta- bility of government, to see any set of men in India that the government could not controul ; it certainly would be very dangerous to allow of agents going into the interior, that would not submit to the rules and regulations hitherto found necessary to govern the conduct of the Company's own servants. What effect would that have upon the people of India, who have hitherto seen every thing under the direct appointment and controul of government ? — It would lessen, to a certain degree, the respectability of government to see any person that was not under the controul of the state. Do you, or not, think the operation of that feeling would, in the course of time, be very prejudicial to the respect that government must carry with it to preserve the safety of the British Empire in India r — In my opinion, it would be dangerous to adopt any system that could be supposed to lessen the dignity of government, as the government of India has been supposed to be a government of opinion, where the few govern the many. You have observed that there was a suspension of the investments from 1779 or 178O, for a certain number of years during the war with Hyder Ally, owing to that war ; during that war did the weavers work for private country merchants or for private sales? — They worked for both : at that time there was a considerable trade carried on by the Danes particularly, and a considerable provision of investment took place in the northern Circarc, which was not affected by the war with Hyder, by means of agents of the Danes. On the occasions when, as stated in a former answer, the Madras govern- ment suspended for a time their investment, did they, during such invest- ment, continue their commercial establishments in the prospect of a return of peace ? — They did, both European and native. You have stated, that in the case of such suspension of the investment, a resumption of the investment was attended with great inconvenience; would not that inconvenience have been far greater, had the Madras government, at the same time when they suspended the investments, given up WJ. EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 933 up their commercial establishments ?— Undoubtedly ; because they would Mungo Dick, have been deprived of that experience ami practice, which so much E tends to their improvement, in keeping up the Company's invest- * ments. What was the nature of the competition you spoke of for piece goods ; was it that the cloths made by advances from the Coinpany were bidden for with ready monev by individuals ? — I belie e I mentioned, that that was the principal cause of the great evil arising out of competition; that was the nature of the competition, for it is very seldom that private agents will venture to advance money, they prefer very much the purchasing of goods provided by the money of the Company, as a much safer trade. The Committee is to understand it to be your opinion, that an open competition would considerably raise the prices of piece-goods ? — Dis- tinctly; when an investment is obliged to be provided by advances, if there were three or four people who will advance upon the same loom, the manufacturer will be very careless in weaving a piece, knowing that if his first customer does not take it, his second will. Would not such competition consequently be advantageous to the wea- ver } — It would afford him more money to spend in cock-fighting, and ul- timately be ruinous in the extreme, because his °oods would be of so de- based a quality that they could never find a market. Are you of opinion, that it is necessary to keep the weavers poor, in order to keep them under proper controui? — By no means ; but it is ne- cessary to see that they perform the engagements that they enter into. Can you inform the Committee of the nature of the spinning business in those countries where so many piece-goods are made, how the thread is prepared ? — The thread is prepared, generally, by the female population at large, by the poorer classes ot females, by the purchase of cotton at their weekly markets, and selling the produce ot the labour of the week at the succeeding market ; this is done in so simple a stile, znd with so much at- tention to economy, that the weaver, pertectly well acquainted with the price of the raw material, seldom affords to the spinner mure than he thinks a just return for rhe labour of the week; and that matter is so well understood among the weavers, generally, that no weaver, for the sake of getting a larger quantity of thread, will outbid his neighbour in the pur- chase of it ; but the business of spinning circulates the money advanced for investment, throughout the country, amongst the description of people most 934- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mungo Dick, most in need of it, the females of the families of cultivators, the lower Esq. classes of inhabitants; it is a great resource. 1 .. ' Have not the females of decayed families, who have little means of em- ploying themselves from the secluded nature of their lives, recourse like- wise to this mode of assisting themselves ? — They certainly have, and it is the great means of giving subsistence to the lowest classes of inhabitants, and they perhaps suffer more than the weaver in the times of suspension of the investment ; I consider the provision of the Company's investment to be a blessing very generally diffused through the country, and depriving them of it, would be depriving them almost of the means of living in, certain seasons. Do you not conceive this species of manufacture, the spinning, not only to extend very generally through those countries, but to employ a very great number of the females of the country ? — Very great ; speaking of the part of the country where I have long been, almost every female of the lower classes earns more or less in the course of a week by spinning. What should you think of a system that should introduce machinery, so as to preclude the labour of that class of persons ? — I think it would be very severely felt ; in all the parts of India where I have resided, I do not think it could be introduced to advantage, so simple is the business of spinning, and so small their expenses of living ; but it would be most se- verely felt if it could be introduced : the season of cultivation only extends to a certain number of months in the year ; there are other times when many of the inhabitants have no means of subsistence but by spinning. Do you conceive, that if this resource failed them, there is any other branch of industry in that country to which those females could turn them- selves ? — I think it would be more difficult in India than any other country in the world, to turn to any profession to which they have not been brought up ; and the employments are fewer; I do not know of any what- ever to which they could turn themselves. Then vou conceive that the discontinuance of the cloth manufacture of tho-e count! ies, manufactures which have existed through so many ages, would be of essential prejudice to the poorer classes of inhabitants in ge- wn'r — The discontinuance would certainly be of essential prejudice; aad any Other system of provision that would enhance the price of the gs s would certainly be the means of that evil which is so much to be dreaded j EAST-INDIA COMPA..T B ' 985 dreaded; if the price was enhanced, they would \- this country ; it is only by their being provided $o cheap';', that tl saleable here. If it should be found possible to introduce yarn thread spun from other country into tho^e parts, what would you suppose to be the effect upon the poorer part of the population, both male and female ? — What I have already mentioned ; and I think, it would be the duty of : government to prohibit the importation of thread into that country, were it possible. With a view to the protection and subsistence of the population of that country ? — Yes. Are you acquainted with the mode of raising and preparing the cotton for the manufacture ? — Not sufficiently to give any distinct account of it j in the Northern Circars, the principal part of the cotton consumed in the investment is raised in the country : we frequently get supplies from the interior by a class of people called Monjaries, who bring cotton from the interior and take their returns in salt ; but the cotton raised in the country is generally preferred, by the cotton being more pure and suiting their manufacture better; it is a very precarious crop. By more pure, do you mean cleaner from the seeds ? — Yes, cleaner from the seeds ; I speak to the preference of the manufacture for the cotton of the country, I suppose it has some superiority. Do you understand in what manner the cotton is cleaned and prepared ? — It is by a very simple process ; it is cleaned by the hand ; there are two processes, the first process is to separate it from the seed by three cylinders that go different ways ; the cotton with the seed is introduced between these cylinders moving closely together, by which means the cotton is drawn out and the seed is left behind it ; that is a sort of hand-mill which every person has in his house ; and the second process is a sort of bow, something like what the hatters use in this country for preparing the wool for making hats, that strikes against the cotton and separates all the dust and seeds that may remain after it has undergone the process of the wheel. Is the raising of cotton in that country pretty general ? — Every cultivator allots some spots of ground to the cultivation of cotton, but as it is a pre- carious crop, he prefers some others ; it is productive when the season is good, but a little too much or too little rain destroys it. Who. 936 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Munpo Dick, Who are the persons employed in cleaning the cotton ? — The first Esq. process is done by every person who spins ; the second process by the v y * bow is done by a particular ciass of persons; it is very remarkable in a country where there are so many species of Hindoos, that it is by a spe- cies of Mussulmen, he is not a Mussulman but approaches nearly to them ; there are one or two such persons in every village ; he performs two du- ties, cleaning cotton and making thread that the threads pass through in the weaving. You mentioned, that one part of the process of preparing cotton is done by the spinner ? — Yes, it is done in every house ; it is a process that every child can perform : the cotton encircles a black seed; it ad- vances perhaps half an inch upon the seed ; this is put into rhe cylinder, and by turning it, the seed is left on one side and the cotton on the other. If bv introducing ready made thread into the country, all the spinners now employed in that branch should be deprived of that employment, could their labour be turned in any way to the raising or cleaning of the article of cotton, so as to provide subsistence for them ? — I think not ; for there are many females that could not quit their own house ; in their se- cluded habits, they would not resort to a large place, to which all descrip- tions of persons had access; it would be hurtful to their feelings, and in- consistent with their habits, to expose themselves so much to public view. Would not an increase in the demand for piece-goods naturally have the effect of increasing the demand for thread ? — Undoubtedly. Would not such increased demand for thread naturally prove beneficial to the persons employed in spinning it? — Constant employ to the manu- facturers certainly would be the most beneficial thing that could happen to them. Having stated that the private merchants at Madras were so much pleased with the system of providing piece-goods through the agency of the Company's commercial' servants, that they subscribed promptly and largely to the proposals of government for that purpose, can you state to what extent the private merchants did so subscribe ? — I cannot charge my memory with the exact sum, but it was to the extent of the allotment made by the Company, the proportion they chose to allow the private dealer, the subscription was filled, whether it was one-eighth or one- fourth, or what proportion I cannot say. Can EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 937 Can you mention the number of lacks of pagodas? — I Cannot ; but tint Mattvo f)iek, would be easily discovered by reference to the documents ; I recollect that Esq it was to the extent all jtted. v_ ~Y" Can you form an opinion to what extent might have been so subscribed by individual merchants in «iny one season, had this practice been con- tinued ? — The practice did not cease, that is to say, the Company have permitted the subscription to continue ; but the adverse state of markets in this country prevented a continuance at that time ; the bad sales at the period at which this system was adopted for some years past ; I be- lieve the sale of piece goods has been Very heavy, and consequently it was not continued. Is the Committee to understand that this practice is still in force at Madras? — When I left India in I809 it was ; I do not know what may have happened since ; I do not know of any orders having been' sent to the contrary. [The Witness withdrew. MR. EDWARD VENN was called in, and examined as follows: Mr Jackson.'\ You are a tea broker ? — Yes. Mr. Edw. Venn. How long have you been such ? — Upwards of thirty years. Is it within your knowledge, that at Canton- the Company's- supra- cargoes have the first choice of the teas ? — I have always understood so ; it is a circumstance which does not fall within my knowledge. You have never been to China ?— No. It is so understood among the tea buyers ? — Yes. To whom is it understood that the teas not so chosen by the supra- cargoes are afterwards disposed of? — Of late years to the Americans. When teas are imported, how are their qualities here ascertained, if Any be damaged ? — If discovered previous to their being on public show for the inspection of the brokers to be so, they are pointed out to us by the Company's- servants where they come on show, and then we examine them more minutely. (5 D ft V-« —■— ^^.M» I . J ^38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE If they 1 urn out to be damaged teas, whut is done with them?-- • depends upon the degree of damage ; if very material, they are destroyed - by the Company. How many sorts of tea are there ? — There are two general classes, L ! k and green ; and of each, five or six denominations. Enumerate the denominations of black tea ? — Bohea, Congou, Catnpoi, Souchong, and JPekc-e. . Enumerate those of green ? — Singlo, Twankay, Hyson skin, Hyson, and Gunpowder. Those are again subdivided, are they not ? — Yes they are. State the subdivisions of them ? — Under each of those denominations, we have various descriptions, ordinary, good ordinary, but middling, mid- dling, good middling, middling good, pretty good, and good. Those, among your profession, are understood as distinct denomina- tions, implying different and distinct qualities? — Yes, understood by the trade not different and distinct qualities, but different degrees of quality, gradations of quality. How are those various and nice gradations determined ? — It requires a very long habitual and practical acquaintance with the article, in order to discriminate those nice variations. With the aid of experience and practice, what mode doyou pursue ? — First by inspection at the warehouses ; there are various circumstances combined in order to form an ultimate judgment of the article, such as the examination of the leaf, the smell, and afterwards by the taste and flavour. Has the sense of feeling any thing to do with it?— Yes, in some de- gree it has, whether it is of a crisp feel or not. Are the distinctions so nice, that even sound helps you in any degree ? — No, I think not. Do each of those qualities you have described bear a different price ?— Yes. State EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 99& State about the degree of their variations taking the leading sorts ? — Mr.Ediv.Fem. Bohea tea is the lowest, from ls.6d. to 2s. 6d. ; and Congou tea from l v '/ 2s. 6d. to 3s. \Od. ; Souchong tea from 3s. up to 5.f. 6d ; Catnpoi tea from 3 j. to 3s. IOcL; Souchong tea from 3s. id. to 5s. 6d.; and I'ekoc tea from 5*. to 5s. and 9d. ; those prices vary probably at each sale in a small degree. As to green teas, Singlo from 3s. 3d. to 35. Hd ; Twankay the same; Hyson skin from 3s. 3d. to 4s. 3d. ; Hyson tea from -is . u'J. to 6s. ; Gunpowder from about bs. to 7-r. The duty at present upon tea is what is called an ad valorem duty ?— - It is. Do you know how much? — From 95 to 96 ; £)3 the excise duty, witb the custom nearly 96. Looking to those various sorts you have described, with the various nice distinctions and subdivisions of each sort, do you think that that ad valorem duty could be exchanged for a rated duty according to those various sorts ? — 1 should think not. Could any person, do you think, not so practise 1 as you have described it necessary to be, in order to ascertain those various distinctions, be capable of making them sufficiently for the purpose of rated duties ? — Certainly not. Would, in your opinion, an attempt to fix rated duties upon so manv various qualities lead to a very considerable and almost endless degree of detail ? — 1 should think so. At present the whole of the Company's teas are sold at public sale, are they not r — Yes. All the teas brought to England are so sold ? — They are all ; even presents are put up to sale, in order to ascertain the duty. Rated duties, if the thing were practical, could only be ascertained by personal and private examination of every separate article, and of its qualities and descriptions, as well as of every separate parcel sold ? — Certainly. Without descending to that degree of .detail, do you apprehend that 6 D 2 rated 9 W MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mf.Edw.Venn. rated duties could be at all ascertained ? — I really do not perfectly undcr- * ■ *■ -v ' stand the question. Supposing that an attempt were made to collect the duties upon the various sorts and distinctions, and shades of distinctions you have de- scribed, by a rated duty, could it be done otherwise than by a personal examination of every sort and of every parcel ? — I should think not. At present the officers of Government as well as of the Company at- tend at each sale, do they not ? — They do. Have they had any other trouble in ascertaining the amount of duty payable to the Crown, than ascertaining the aggregate value of the sale ? — They judge by the price of each lot, adding them together they form the aggregate sum. During your long experience, have you reason to believe or to suspect, any other description of sale ever to have taken place at the Company's sales, then actual and bona fide sales ? — No ; there cannot possibly be a fairer mode of sale than that adopted at the East India House; the goods previous to the sale are shewn in the most fair manner possible, and with very great order and regularity, for the inspection of the buyers : nothing can be done, I think, with mere precision than it is conducted. Is it not of great consequence to your employers, and consequently to yourself with regard to character, that such sales should be genuine and bona fide ? — Certainly. Have you the least suspicion of any departure^ in any one instance, from those two principles ? — Not the least. Is it not the rule of the Company to put up their teas at the prime cost o{ fhc-arficle including such charges as are enumerated rn the Act of Parlia- ment ? — I have always understood so. That you would call then the upset-price ? — Yea. Do you know upon what degree of advance upon that price the Company make it a rule to sell ? — The advance of a farthing a pound upon teas under 3s. 4d. and a halfpenny per pound advance upon all teas that sell above that price. Do EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 511 Do you happen to know whether the obligation under the Act of Par- Mr. ElwJ'cnn. liament is not, that they should sell, if one penny per pound be bid above * v > the upset or cost price ?— It is a considerable time since I have read the Act gf Parliament, and I do not recollect the precise words of it. Whatever may be the law in point of practice, if one farthing be bid above the prime cost, and below the price you have stated, they sell ?-Yes. Do you know the sort of tea which has been principally bought by the Americans i — No, I do not. What is the general understanding of your trade upon that subject, is it Congou or other tea that the Americans have been in the habit of buy- ing ? — I should rather suppose green tea, for such te'a is used in Ame- rica; becau.-e if any exportation takes place from this country to Canada, it is principally of green tea, but I should suppose the Americans have bought more black tea than green tea, as they have supplied the Continent with btack tea; and in Holland, Denmark, and Sweden, and those parts they have usually, 1 believe, drank more black tea than green ; and as they purchased, 1 should imagine, with a view to supply those parts, 1 should suppose they purchased a greater quantity of black tea than green. What is the lowest price of Souchong tea ? — ?*. ?&. Is that as low a price as you have known ? — Yes ; it is put up by the Company at 3*. 6d. If the New York price current, or any other American price current",, should have stated Souchong to be sold at lo^d. per pound, according to your judgment, could it in the nature of things be Souchong tea, or must it have been seme other tea to which that name has been given ? — Some other tea to which that name has been given, no doubt. Why do you think so ? — From the lowness of the price ; considering the actual price they must have paid at Canton for it, it is impossible it should have been that sort of tea. According to the best of your judgment and experience, could it have been bought at that price, or near it, at Canton?—! should imagine nothing like* it. Supposing — v 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Jvl lu.o.I emu Supposing the Americans to have been so shrewd or fortunate as to have ^— — >"— -^ bought this kind of tea at so low a rate at Canton, and afterwards to have succeeded in getting it into this country through any ingenious medium whatever, could they have got 3s. or is, a pound for it, supposing it to have been real Souchong ? — Certainly. [The Witness withdrew ] Mr. THOMAS STYAN was called in, and examined as follows: Mr.Tho. Stgan. Mr. Jackson.'] You are a tea broker ?— I am. How long have you been such ? — Upwards of thirty years. Is it the understanding of your profession, or within your knowledge, that the Company's supracargoes have the offer of all the best teas at Canton ? — We have always understood they have an offer of the teas at Canton in preference to any other country. To whom have you understood such teas as they have refused are sold ? — I suppose to those of other countries who have gone to China for teas, to the Americans, and to the Swedes or Danes, when they used to go there ; I do not know myself. The Danes and Swedes have ceased to be buyers for a considerable time, have they not ? — The Danes four or five years, and the Swedes be- fore that. Your two chief classes are black and green ? — Yes, they are. The black comprizes five different sorts, namely Bohea, Congou, Campoi, Souchong, and Pekoe ? — Yes. The green comprizes Singlo, Twankay, Hyson skin, Hyson, Young Hyson, and Gunpowder ? — 'Yes. Each o these sorts is again subdivided into nine or ten different qualities, such as good, middling, ordinary, good middling, flaggy, woody, disty ; are those, generally speaking, the qualities and description* ? — Yes, they are ; we have other descriptions, such as very ordinary ; ordinary ; good ordinary. How EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. .')'•> How are those distinctions determined on? — They are determined by **,\Tho.S/yan. our examination of them ; first, the exammition in the warehouses, then <— i — ^ J we take an average sample from the different parcels, which we try being being made into tea, and we give the character of them from the observa- tion, taking together the inspection and the tasting afterwards. To whom do you give this opinion ? — We give it to the trade at large, we publish books of it before the sales. Is it by the judgment of the broker that these various distinctions arc- fixed r — Yes. Does it require long experience and great attention to attain to a degree- of judgment sufficient for the purpose of making such distinctions ? — Yes, it does. Do you think that persons not so practised or so attentive to the sub- ject could possibly make such distinctions ? — It would be impossible to make them with correctness. Describe to the Committee by what means you make those various dis- tinctions ? — We make them by the examination of them in the ware- houses ; they are laid open for inspection before the sales ; we make our remarks upon them there, and we take a sample home. What are your modes of examination to attain to such various and nice distinctions as you have described ? — The samples are drawn by some of the Company's labourers, and 'are brought to us upon a tray, we look at them and smell them, after which we take a sample home, and examine them by the colours and the appearance of them again, when we assort them together, and by the flavours they possess when they are made into tea. Do you examine by means of feeling the different kinds ? — Yes, we handle them ; tea that is crisp and handles well, generally is better than that that is not so crisp and handles heavy. Are the distinctions so nice, that sound assists you in any degree r^- No. Not by shaking ? —Not at all; some perhaps may do ; did. $11 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr.Tho.Styan. Is it a notion with some, that they can assist themselves in determining the quality of tea by its sound ? — I have seen a person go to examine tea that has merely felt it, and never smelt it. Those various and nice distinctions bear different prices^ do they not? — Yes, the}' do. State the different prices, from the lowest to the highest, of the different $orts ? — The prices vary as much as the price of the article in general; Sometimes we have an article sixpence a poond higher at one period than we have it at another : at the present time, in regard to Congou tea, very ordinary would be about 2s. Qd. ; good ordinary, 2s. \\d.; but middling, 3s. id. ; middling, 3s. bd. ; middling good, we have nothing of that desci iption ; we have some that we call middling, a little Souchong flavour, at 3s. id, ; those are the various sorts of Congou. Generally speaking, do the other sorts you have mentioned vary as much in price as the article of Congou ? — No, I think nothing, unless it is Gunpowder and Souchong. Do the other sorts, in fact, bear several prices, according to their qua- lities?— Yes. For about how much to how much? — Singlo, 3s. 3d', to- 3s. &d; Twankay, 3s. 3d. up to 3s.. lod. ; Hysyn skin, 3*. bd. up to 4s. 8d. ; Hyson, 5*. 2d. to 5a*. gd. ; Gunpowder Hyson, from 5*. 9^. up to 7*. 6d. ; there is as much difference as that. The sorts, generally speaking, vary about as much as those you have described ? — Yes. They have as many gradations as prices ? — Yes . Would it be possible for any person to fix those- gradations, except those who have had a very long and : continued practice in inspecting and judging of the articles ? — 1 should think not; The prices you have mentioned are exclusive of the duties ?-^-They are. The duty upon tea is a* present- an ad valorem from 95 to 96 per cent. ? —96 per cent. The EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. <)15 The amount of duty is ascertained from the amount of public sale, is it Mi'.TIio.Styun. not ? — It is. * v ' All the teas that come to this country, are sold at those sales ? — Yes. There being present the officers belonging both to the Company and tlie Crown ? — Yes. Looking to the various sorts which you have mentioned, divisions and subdivisions, the various shades and distinctions of quality as well as thje giadations of prices, should you think it possible to change the mode of collecting the duty as an ad valorem duty to a rated duty upon all those various sorts and kinds, consistently with commercial convenience or precision as to value ? — It would be impossible to make the duty bear equally, considering the value of the teas, in any other way than their being put up to public sale at the India House, or some other place, and inspected by the brok.rs, or people that have been long in the habit of dealing in the article. "6 Supposing a rated duty to be attempted, you think still it can be only collected with any degree of precision through the medium of a public sale ? — I should think it could not be by any other means. The Company's teas at those public sales are put up, as understood bv your profession, at prime cost including charges, are they not ? — I do not know ; I cannot answer that question. Is not that your understanding ? — It was the understanding at the time of the Commutation Act, that the teas should be put up at the prices they cost the Company, with the charges ; that was the under- standing at the time of the Commutation Act. You were in business at that time ? — I was. Is it still the understanding of your profession, that that rule is adhered to ? — I should think it was pretty nearly ; but the prices, I suppose, vary at Canton, and they do not make any alteration inthe putting-up prices, though they may sometimes give more, and sometimes less for them. G E Is 946 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr.Tho Stt/an. \ s it the understanding of your profession, that that rule is adhered to * ' v * as nearly as it practically can be ? — Yes. Is it not the rule of the Company to sell, although but a farthing should be bid in advance upon the prime cost? — Yes. What is the rule?— They arc put up at a certain price, and if any body bids upon it at all, it is sold, though it is but a farthing, in some cases it is a halfpenny ; in teas above 3*. Ad. a pound, we are obliged to bid a halfpenny ; but in teas under 3s. Ad., a farthing would be suf- ficient. What sort of tea is it the understanding of the tea trade the Ameri- cans buy ? — We suppose they take all sorts of the descriptions, such as are taken by the Company ; but we suppose that the Company have the preference of the teas that are exported at Canton. Are they known to be purchasers of Congou? — Yes. Have you seen the New York or other prices current of tea? — No, I do not know that I ever did ,- I have seen Congou tea that has come from America that has been brought into this country as prize, or some that has been brought in from stress of weather, and been suffered to be sold by the Company. How low have you known the price of Souchong in this country at the Company's sales ? — We had Souchong sold within these six months as low as 2s 1 \£d. per lb. ; it is imported as Souchong, but it is not so good as the best Congou tea in quality ; the general Souchong is about 3s. 6d. to As. 8d., but we have what we call Padaree Souchong, which will go up to six shillings, or from that to 6s. 8d. without the duty ; Pekoe which is a black tea which sells from 5s. to 5s. yd. without the duty, is a Souchong; tea. o Does that low priced Souchong you just spoke of, rank among you as Souchong ? —We do not call it Souchong ; it is imported as Souchong, and put up as such. Among yourselves it is considered too inferior to deserve that character i — Yes, it is that sort which is always brought over by the officers ; the Company never bring any thing so inferior. EAST-INDrA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 9*7 In point of practice, it happens, that the officers bring, generally, an Mr.Tho.S(yn». inferior kind of tea to that which the Company purchase ? — Sometimes they do ; it happens so more I think in Souchong- than any other kind of tea ; I rather think they give it the character of Souchong, thinking it will sell hetter in this country by being imported as Souchong tea, that beingconsidered as superior. If any of the American prices current should have stated Souchong at lO\d. per pound, do you think it possible, in the nature of things, that it should have been that kind of tea f — No. According to your knowledge and experience, do you think it possible to have bought it, even at Canton, at any thing like that price ? — They might buy an inferior black tea at Canton which they might have bought, perhaps, as Souchong, as low as 10^ d or \0^d. but it is of a very bad de- scription. At that price, you think their procuring real Souchong impossible ? — ' Certainly. Supposing that the Americans should have succeeded in getting Souchong at that price advertised for its sale, namely lO^d., if they could succeed by themselves or others in getting it into this country would it not fetch three or four shillings a pound, generally speaking? — If :t was equal to be called Souchong, it would fetch 3s. 6d., certainly. How long have you practised as a tea-broker : — Upwards of thirty years. Dining the whole of that time, have you ever known the Company offer tea for sale, by a description to which it did not fairly belong, for the purpose of enhancing the price ? — Never. Have you ever known, in any instance during the whole of that period, or have you any reason to suspect a single sale of their's being other than real and bona fide ? — It has all been fairly sold ; I never knew any think taken in, or attempted to be run up in price there. Is it the impression in your trade, that their sales are conducted con- sistently with every attention to integrity and honour ? — Nothing can be more so than they are, I am sure. G E 2 (Examined — v -- 9*8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE Mr.Tho.Styan. (Examined by the Committee. ) ~~^ From your long experience in your line of business, and knowing the prices of tea before the Commutation Act, and what they have been -.ince,. ancl having observed a gradual rise in the duties, are you able to foim any opinio!:, what reduction of the present duties might leave it not worth the while of the smuggler to attempt to import tea into the country ? — I cannot well answer that question, because I do not know directly what they give for tea at Canton : the freight of the Americans is much les than the Company pay for freight : I should think if the duty was reduced to about 40 per cent, instead of 96, it would prevent smuggling to a great degree ; there would be very little encouragement to it, taking the risk attached to it. Supposing at the same time that the duty continued at 40 per cent., there were a possibility of smugglers finding teas in the Chinese seas at twenty per cent, less than the price at which the Company purchase them, so that there might be a profit of sixty per cent., would there be a temptation to smuggling, in your opinion ? — I shou'd think there would not, to a great degree, so long as the war continues, by foreigners. "What are your reasons for thinking so?— I should think that 60 per cent, was not adequate to the risk a smuggler would run in this country.. Did you, when you said that were the duty reduced to 40 per cent, there would not, in your opinion, be danger of smuggling, take into your account that there might also be an addition of twenty ^ er cent, profit to. that upon the importation of smuggled tea ? — Yes, as the 20 per cent, in China would not be more than from 3d. to 6d. per pound. [The Witness withdrew. [The following Papers were delivered in, and read :] " COPIES of the CIRCULAR LETTERS se?U on the 1 3th and 20th of July " 1810, bi/ Orders of the Governor General in Council of Fort William, " to the Magistrates under that Presidency. " (Circular.; « TO THE MAGISTRATES. «? SIR, " The attention of Government has recently been attracted in a particular " manner to abuses and oppressions committed by Europeans, who are esta- •« blished as indigo planters in different parts of the country; numerous as " those abuses and oppressions have latterly been, the right honourable the " Governor EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 9»9 " Governor General in Council is still willing to hope, that this imputation " does not attach to the character of the indigo planters, generally, considered " asa bodv or class of people. The facts, however, whi i liave n • endy hceu " established against some individuals of that class before the Magistrates and " the Supreme Court of Judicature, are of so flagrant a nature, that the " Governor General in Council considers it an act of indispensattle public " duty, to adopt such measures as appear to him, under existing cir- " cumstatices, best calculated to prevent the repetition of offences equally " injurious to the English character, and to the peace and happiness of our " native subjects." " 2. The offences to which the following remarks refer, and which hive *' been established, beyond all doubt or dispute, against individual indigo "■ planters, may he reduced to the Following heads: " Jst. Acts of violence, which although they amount not in the legal sense of " the word to murder, have occasioned the death of natives : M 2d. The illegal detention of the natives in confinement, especially in " stocks, with a view to the recovery of balances, alledged to be due *' from them, or for other causes : " 3d. Assembling, in a tumultuary manner, the people attached to their " respective factories and others, and engaging, in violent affrays, " with other indigo planters : " 4th. Illicit infliction of punishment, by means of a rattan or otherwise, " on the cultivators or other natives. " 3. You must of course be sensible, that it is your bounden duty to bring M every act of violence, of the above nature, to the knowledge of Government,, " and under the cognizance of the Supreme Court of Judicature. In order, " however, to prevent, as far as depends on the Executive Government, the " repetition of- any offence of that nature, the Governor General in Council " desires, that you will particularly attend to the following instructions : " First. — You will take the necessary measures to ascertain, without loss of " time, whether any of the indigo planters resident in the district under your " charge, keep stocks at their factories, and if so, you will require them im- ;< mediately to destroy the stocks, bhould any hesitation occur on the part of " the indigo planters in complying with this requisition, you will report the " circumstance to Government, when the Governor General in Council will " order such person to quit the district, and repair to the Presidency. " Second. — Without encouraging vexatious and litigious complaints, you " will exert yourself to prevent the practice, which Government has reason to " believe is too prevalent on the part of the indigo planters, of inflicting illegal " corporal punishment on the ryots and others. Whenever cases of this nature '• occur, which may not appear to be of so aggravated a nature as to form the « c ground of a criminal prosecution in the Supreme Court of Judicature, you " will report the facts to Government, in order that his Lordship in Council may " take into his consideration the propriety of withdrawing the licence which <( the offender may have obtained for residing in the interior of the country. " Third. — As opportunities may arise of personal communication with the " indigo planters, you will endeavour to impress on their minds, the linn de- " termination which the Governor General in Council has adopted, not only " uniformly to prosecute all olTences of the above description, which can pro. " perly 950 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE " perly be brought under the cognizance of the Supreme Court, but likewise " to exercise to the utmost extent the powers possessed by the Governor " General in Council, of preventing the residence of any European in the " interior of the country, who shall not conform to the spirit of the present " resolutions of Government. " Fourth. — Should it occur to you, that any other measures can be adopted, " calculated for the attainment of the important objects above noticed, you " are desired to submit your sentiments on the subject to Government. " I am, &c. " Council Chamber, (Signed) " Geo. Dowdesxi-ell, " the 13th July 1810. " Sec* to Gov' Jud Dep t ." tt ** NOTE: — On the 13th instant, copies of the above order were trans- mitted to the Nizamut Adawlut, and to the several provincial courts, with " directions to afford their aid, to the lull extent of the legal powers vested in " those courts, in giving effect to the resolutions of Government contained " therein. " REMARK : — There being grounds to apprehend that many of the manu- " faciurers of indigo are in the haUit of compelling the ryots to receive ad- " vances for the cultivation of the indigo plant ; — " ORDER: — Ordered, That the following supplementary orders be trans- '■* mitted to the several magistrates throughout the provinces. " (Circular.) " TO THE MAGISTRATES. " SIR, f In continuation of the orders of Government of the 13th instant, I am " directed to acquaint you, that the right honourable the Governor General in " Council has reason to believe that European indigo planters are in the habit " of obliging the ryots who reside in the vicinity of their respective factories, " to receive advances, and of adopting other illicit and improper means to '• compel them to cultivate indigo ; you are accordingly directed to re port all " instances of that nature which may come to your knowledge, and which *' you may consider to be founded in fact, to the Governor General in Council, " in order that Government may take into its consideration the expediency of " withdrawing the offender's licence to reside in the interior of the country, and " at the same time adopt such other measures as the circumstances of the *• case may appear to require. " I am, &c. f Council Chamber, (Signed) " G. Dowdcswell, " the 20th July 1810. «« Sec. to Gov. Jud. Dep." " Ordered, That copies of the above supplementary orders be transmitted (o " the Nizamut Adawlut, and the several provincial courts, in continuation of " the orders of the 13th instant." [Adjourned to to-morrow, eleven o'clock. Veneris, EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIR*. 9*>' Veneris, 21° die Maij\ 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. JOHN BAINBRIDGE, Esq. was called in, and examined as follows : Mr. Impey.] You are a general merchant ? — I am. /• Bambrulge, Esq. You are connected with a firm, that carry on merchandize to a very ' * considerable extent ? — I am. Is your firm extensively connected with the Americans ? — Yes. Have they also been large dealers in piece-goods, by wholesale? — Yes ; we have bought considerably for many years. From your connections with the Americans, have you had frequent opportunities of obtaining information from them relative to their trade with India, and the cause of its success? — We have had frequent oppor- tunities of learning, from various persons connected with America, the usual mode in which they have conducted that trade. To what causes do you attribute the success the Americans have had, in carrying on their trade with India and China ? — After the Treaty known by the name of Mr. Jay's Treaty, I believe the Americans very generally entered into the trade with India. I do not recollect that, previous to that time, their trade with India was of such magnitude as subsequent to the year 1793 or 1794; subsequent to the year 179-t or 1795, I believe their trade to India has increased regularly, particularly during the times they had an opportunity of extending their commerce, as well to the Spanish and French 952 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE J. Bahibr'ulge, French C >lonie?, as to that part of the Continent of Europe to which this Esq. country was principally prevented enjoying a trade. From the information you have been able to acquire upon these sub- jects, in conversations with Americans, do you imagine the success of their trade above alluded to has been owing to their neutral character ? — Certainly ; they were in a situation to avail themselves of the carrying trade to the different parts of the world, from which all British connection was excluded ; I conceive that they certainly did enjoy that, to a very con- siderable extent, subsequent to the year 1795. Is it one of the advantages they have derived from their neutral cha- racter, that they have been enabled to trade at inferior rates of freight and insurance? — Certainly; I have understood that they send their ships to India at a much less expencc than the East India Company could possibly send ; and that they import their goods from thence, at a much easier rate than we receive tliem in this country. Do you mean' that that was owing to the circumstance of their being neutrals while we were belligerents? — They certainly have the means of fitting their vessels, from their peculiar situation, at an easier expense; they have provisions and every thing necessary for the equipping their vessels, at a very cheap rate ; their insurance is also very reasonable. Has their freight also, from the same causes, been much below the rates of our freight ? — Yes ; I have understood trom persons that I ha\ e con- versed with, that their general rate of freight has been from forty to sixty dollars per ton, according to the arrangements made among the parties themselves, who were shippers fro n ten to twelve pounds per ton ; and their shipments are generally made from America in companies : a variety of persons will join, and put in a certain sum, perhaps 10,000 or 20,000 dollars each : the shipments are generally made in specie from America, and Ginsensr. 6" Are the Committee to understand it to be your opinion, that their success has been greatly owing to the carrying trade, which if they had not engaged in, it would have been impossible for the merchants of this nation as a belligerent nation, to engage in? — I certainly think it tva quite impossible for the subjects of this country, as a bclligeienr, to carry upon the same terms as the Americans: under the circumstances I have stated, they are enabled, by .means of their neutral character, both to fit out their EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. QJ^ heirships and to insure, at a less oxpence than British subjects could have /■ Bainhridgfr Esq. i v 1 done, whilst the country was in a state of. war Do you think that it is probable, that if this country had been at peace during the period of the last nineteen or twenty years instead of being at war, the Americans could have derived as great a profit as they actually have from their trade in India? — I should Lave presumed they would not have had the same means of disposing of the articles they brought from India, except as far as respected their own internal consumption, because if this country had been at peace, the same sources would not have been opened to the Americans as have been from the circumstance of our beins in a state of warfare. a You have stated that, in your opinion, part of the success of the Ameri- cans has been from their supplying the SpanUh colonies in America ; do you think that has arisen from the differences between Spain and her co- lonies?— As well previous to as during the period we were at war with Spain, a very considerable trade has always been carried on between Ame- rica and the Spanish colonies ; indeed it always will be necessarily so, be- cause they have the means of supplying the Spanish colonies wiih those ar- ticles which they absolutely want from their situation ; consequently they introduced a variety of articles which, in a time of peace, would not have been permitted to be introduced into the Spanish colonies ; I understand they have made considerable shipments of Indian produce to the Spanish Colonies during the war, and for which they received their return as they do for provisions ; I understand almost always in specie or in produce. Is it your opinion that, in consequence of the differences between Spain and her colonies, the commercial intercourse between America and the Spanish colonies has been increased ? — Yes, I should apprehend it has, very considerably. State how the circumstance of their obtaining bullion in the Spanish colonies in return for provisions is of importance to them in carrying on the Indian trade? — It certainly is of importance, inasmuch as they are enabled to make shipments of specie from America to the East Indies, being an article necessary to get their return cargoes from India and from China. Have you any reason to believe that one of the causes of the success of the Americans in the East India trade, has been a clandestine trade with our West Indian colonies ? — I think there is a very considerable trade, a natural and legitimate trade, between India and America, for their own 6 F consumption : O 054 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCK OX TUB J. Bainbridge, consumption ; 1 conceive so very particularly from the house, in which I Ely admitted and Esq. entered. Whether they have relaxed that law, and how iar, lam not ( v—— — ' competent to answer. If the duty to be establi bed in the event of opening the trade with Inclii to the out-ports were to be placed on the same footing, whether of a rated or an ad valorem duty, in London as in the out-ports, do you con- ceive it possible that any injury could be sustained bv the merchant of London r — Certainly, if the same rate was levied at both places, and in. the same manner, I should presume no difficulty of that description could arise ; I should hardly presume that any persons importing, or any officers of Mis Majesty's Customs, would not attend to their duty under such circumstances ; I make my distinction only from the duty being levied upon the sales of the East India Company, at which considerable varia- tion takes place, and that of the declaration of the private individual upon his invoice cost, or any other mode of proceeding that he might think proper to adopt. We know very well in all mercantile transactions that various persons, well connected and well acquainted with their bu- siness, will import their goods upon much better terms than those who are not so well acquainted, and have not the same means of laying them in at a proper rate trom India : we are aware that in all cases persons will both purchase at a much less expense, and import at a much less expense, though the same description of articles; and if imported under an ad valorem duty upon invoice cost, the one party importing upon those terms which were not so advantageous as his adversary, would pay higher duties it he paid them in the way in which they are levied in America, by the declaration of the parties; and it does frequently happen within riiy own knowledge, and what I have heard stated, that parties in America pay a much less duty upon the same articles purchased in this country tor money, and those that are purchased upon credit, although they are precisely the same articles. You are not vourself much connected with the continental trade ? — Not a great deal ; we frequently buy largely at the East India Company's sales, but we have either had occasion to ship them ourselves to the Me- diterranean, or have soli them in London to persons who have made application to us for that purpose through our brokers ; our regular trade has been with America. From your own knowledge or general acquaintance with mercantile men, can you name any period during the war which commenced m 1793, c j6o minutes of evidence on the Ji'Bainbridge 1*9?; up to {he present period, that America could send to any country Esq. in Europe 'the manufactures of India, at the time when a British merchant \ v * could not sqnd to the same country the manufactures of India in a neutral ship'? — It occurs to me, that there were very considerable shipments of piece- goods made from America, subsequent to the commencement of the pre- sent war in 1803; to Antwerp extremely considerable; I am quite certain of the tact, because I remember to have received very considerable re- mittances from Antwerp, the produce of those cargoes; I cannot state precisely the year, not expecting to be asked a question of the kind, or I would have been prepared to answer it ; but since the commencement of the present war, there have been considerable shipments of Indian produce made, not only to the ports under the dominion of the French, but also to the Dutch ports, the proceeds of which have been remitted to this country. The Americans were in the habit of transacting nearly the whole of the business of Batavia, as also the Isle of France ; Batavian produce came in very considerable quantities to the ports of Holland and Hamburgh. At the periods referred to by you, could not a British merchant, by means of neutral vessels and neutral intervention, have sent the produc- tions of India from London to the same ports ? — No, I presume not. Do you say so from your own knowledge, or merely from your general information ? — Not from my own knowledge, because I have not been in the habit of shipping to those ports, nor has our house ; but I have understood that very considerable difficulties did occur in the shipment of articles from this country of that description, when America was in the habit of taking them to the continent of Europe. Are you aware that by the Decree of Berlin, dated in November 1806, the productions and manufactures of India, as a British settlement, were totally prohibited from being introduced into France or her dependencies, coming by whatever vessel? — Yes, I am. Therefore, from that period, America can have derived no advantage from her neutral character, in commercial transactions in the manufac- tures of India with France and her dependencies ? — No, I should pre- sume not. Are you aware of any other country besides those you have named, from which the British merchant was excluded, even by means of neutrals, at the time when the Americans were admitted, conveying the manufac- tures EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 9b*l tures of India? — I am not aware of America having done much to Eu- J. Bitiubridgf, rope; there were no other ports except the Russian ports, from which Esq. we have been excluded; and I am not aware of their hiking the piece- goods of India to Russia, because I believe they do not admit them into Russia ; a very considerable quantity of East India produce has been taken into Russia bv America since that period ; very large quantities of Batavia coffee have been sent. In those countries, particularly in the Mediterranean, into which both the British and American flags were freely admitted, do you net know that the Americans have successfully entered into competition vvitli the goods brought from India by the East India Company ? — The Americans have sent at all times very large quantities of China goods into the Mediterranean, particularly the article of nankeens ; I am quite aware that they have always interfered with the sales of the East India Com- pany, in the article of nankeens particularly ; I do not precisely recollect when their last shipments of nank. ens were made into the Mediterranean ; I should presume it was about the year 1810 or 1811 their exports to the Mediterranean ceased ; very large quantities of nankeens were at all times exported to the Mediterranean by the Americans. Do not you know that the exportation of East India manufactures from this country to the Mediterranean h Esq. y < - '"'■', Outward, Homeward. 1* * £ £ " 1805-6 - Lady Buries - - 19,158 — — - . Skelton Gistle . - 8,429 — — - - Warren Hastings - - . 104,051 — - - Ganges - - . 126,614 " 1807-8 . Travers . - 6,558 -r— — . - Walpole - - - 3,235 " 1808-9 . LordiNelson . - . 49,026 . — - - Experiment - - - 5,292 — - - Glory - - - . - 5,292 — - . Calcutta - - - 124,452 — . . Bengal ' - . - - 121,262 — . . Lady Jane Dundas . . . 36,803 — . . Jane Duchess of G 3rdon . . 86,089 — - - Europe • - - _ - 1 40,000 — . . Streatham - - . 1 40,000 — . . Britannia - - 57,091 — — - . Admiral Gardner - - 21,759 — — - - Asia - . - 28,565 1 " 1809-10 _ United Kingdom m • 2,194 — — - - Charlton - - 27,985 — — - - Ceylon * - 15,995 — — - - Windham • . 25,978 — __ . . True Briton - . . 22,300 — — . . Ocean . _ 21,202 — — - Earl Camden *' Adc ' Total, Outward and] IO 34,002 « — 597,967 1,371,788 597,967 atward - - homeward - <£ 1,969,755 « ,^r,i n T v ,-,,. _ "| Admitted as before the period, the losses- " 1791 " 2 ' Foulls - £l ±Hl \ being charged inthe yearin which the " 1792-3, Winterton 96,506 \ . 8 __"5T J risk occurred. " East India House, " 24th Mav 1813. " Errors excepted. (Signed) " Cha' Cartwright, AcC Gen'." 6 H ) 970 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cariwrigkt, In that total you have given of freight in this account, is there any al- & i( l' lowance made for goods brought in the Company's own ships outward and homeward ? — Yes, certainly. There is no charge In any of your estimates of profit and loss upon the trade for warehouse rent, in India or England ; is there ? — Every sum that the Company pay for rent, whether in India or England, is down. The Company have a considerable capital vested of their own, both in India and England ? — Yes. No charge is made for that ?— No. You know that there are duties in all the ports in India, payable to the Company on all private trade exported ? — Yes. No such duties, of course, arise upon the Company's own trade ?— No. No allowance, consequently, is made in your accounts for the loss of duties arising from the quantity of goods exported by the Company, which might have borne a duty, if exported by private persons ? — No, certainly not. Can you give the Committee any information what the average produce ad valorem of those Indian duties have been ? — Not the least ; it is not within my department. It appears, upon looking at three different accounts before the Com- mittee, namely, Appendix No. 14 to the Third Report, shewing the amount of all advances, as far as regards the purchases of investments for Europe; the account given in by you on the 14th instant, marked B., in the column headed " Imports Invoice Amount ;" and your estimate of the 23d of February last, in the column headed " Prime Cost of Invest- " ment of Goods ;" that there is a wide difference in the totals, that of the first being ,=£26,038,266 in seventeen years ; that of the second being .£26,792,304 for eighteen years ; and that of the third ,£25,134,672 for nineteen years ; can you explain the reasons of that difference ? — I have no doubt the reason of the variation may be accounted for; but I cannot do it here ; if the Committee will allow me time, I will make out an ac- count explanatory of the difference. It EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 97 1 It appears, by Appendix No. 1 to the Third Report, that the amount C. Carhoright, remaining on hand in India, of stores unsold on the 30th of April 1809, was .£1,938,371, of which two-thirds is estimated to have been received *— . from Europe, to the amount of .£ 1,292,247, and that the assets in goods remaining at the same period was X 1,1 8 1,718 ; and it further appears, upon reference to an account of assets drawn up by the India Board, Ap- pendix No. 9 of the same Report, that during the last six years the average amount of goods on hand, unsold in India, has been about ,£900,000 ; and the stores unsold, estimated at two-thirds of the amount, are stated as above, ,£1,200,000 per annum; making together an amount of about .£2,000,000 per annum, appearing to have lain in an unproductive state in India ; do you not conceive that the interest upon this amount ought to be considered as a charge upon the Company's trade ; and if not, explain why not ? — I conceive that the actual commercial capital the Company employ ought to be subject to an interest; but what the commercial capital of the Company is, I have never been able to ascertain exactly. Do you not conceive this to be a part of the capital ? — No doubt. Have the goodness to state the nature of the difficulty you have expe- rienced in ascertaining the commercial capital of the Company ? — It is a very difficult thing for me to answer that question ; it embraces the whole commercial concern of the Company ; to view this question fairly, I must have an account made of all the commercial property of the Company in every part of the world, in England, as well as at the several presidencies in India ; and then to draw the conclusion, as to what amount of that ca- pital so stated is used per annum, is perhaps more difficult than the Com- mittee are aware of; we can completely shew what the commercial assets of the Company amount to, but there are commercial debts ; when we have the total of those commercial assets to set against thern, and when we come to draw the line, it is very difficult so to put it, as to shew pre- cisely what a year's capital is ; for the question goes, I presume, only to a year's capital ; the whole difference is, whether we charge the interest on an extra ,£500,000 to the commercial capital or not. I have stated the ' commercial capital to be about ^£2,600,000, taking the amount of two year's imports to be the assumed commercial capital employed; if the half of another year's imports should be taken, the interest upon about .£700,000 additional must be added to that. In the question you have answered relative to the amount of stores in hand yearly, do you consider those stores purely ofa commercial nature, or of a commercial and military nature ? — Commercial and military certainly ; 6 11 2 principally 97% MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carlwright, principally military, no doubt ; stores have been occasionally sold, and Esq. though they may ultimately be for military purposes, still as the Company v — — '-•* ; sell them, we must look upon such sale as a commercial transaction. Considering those stores as principally military and naval, are you of opinion that the Company's trade should be charged with the interest arising upon those stores lying on hand ? — I think I have substantially answered that question before; so far as the stores are for military and naval purposes, and are issued to the different store-keepers for that purpose, I think they are not liable to interest. So far as the export cargoes of the Company remain unsold, they are of course not an available fund for the provision of return cargoes from India? — Not immediately, they are gradually realizing ; there must be, in great concerns, always a stock on hand. The stock on hand maybe considered as a permanent unavailable fund in India ?— No doubt. In the lieu of which a similar amount in India, in money, must be sub- stituted to purchase return cargoes, so long as it remains unavailable ?— That is a supposition ; it ends in this broad circumstance : if it is correct, that the Company have supplied India with eight millions of morey Beyond what it has received back, it ends there: the commeice should not be charged with interest on funds substituted, if the argument is continued till to-morrow, it must end there at last. Look at account No. 50 in the Appendix to the Fourth Report ; can you state, from looking to that account, the amount of Indian goods re- maining on hand unsold, in England, at any given time ? — Yes, it is speci- fically stated. What goods appear to have been on hand unsold in 1810 ? — The cost is £ J, 13 4,000. Have you any account shewing the average amount of Indian Goods remaining on hand in India, unsold, for any given number of yearb ? — This account is made up for a number of years, and of couisc will shew it. Do you take that to be more or less than the average amount remaining on EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. 973 on hand in India ? -When compared with the statement in 1793, there is C.Carlicright, a very great difference, there is X700,000 difference. Es ;. Have not the Company's sales of imports increased within that period ? —1 doubt whether they have much ; I should think they have, generally, as much as a million a year, prime cost, on hand at home. ■Do you not consider that a part of their unproductive capital r — No; it is a part of their capital, but not their unproductive capital. Do you not consider it fair to charge interest to their trade for the amount of the stock on hand unsold, and if not, why not? — It is certainly fair to charge an interest upon the capital, but my difficulty is to ascertain what the amount of that capit al is ; the interest upon the capital, as 1 have assumed it, is charged for two years already in my statement. Is there not a gene r d account of the Company's stock, both at home and abroad, annually laid before Parliament ? — There is. Referring to the accounts of this description, Nos. 15 and )6 in the Appendix to the Fourth Report, under your signature, are the Committee to understand that thf-se accounts exhibit a complete view of the Company's stock on the .iOth of April 1792 and 30th of April I8O9 ? — They exhibit a view of the Company's stock, but not a complete view, because we only give an abstract account of the balances of the property of the Company at the different settlements ; if we were to give a distinct view, we must dissert the .stock account of each presidency, and branch it out into com- mercial Assets, commercial debts, political assets, political debts, and a variety of odier articles, so that that does not give a complete view ; it is a complete bahnce of the Company's property, so far as it can be made up. Is there any thing included in those accounts upon the scale of interest or warehouse rent on the goods and stores remaining unrealized in India ? — Certainly not ; it is an account of stock ; it is taken at a particular day in LLr.g'and, and, as far as can be, upon a particular day at each place abroad ; and it is merely a dead account; we cannot look prospectively tjeyond it ; it is the same as if the Company were bankrupt or dead, and their account of stock taken at that particular day ; and an account of ware- house rent or interest, would not, I conceive, apply to the account. Upon comparing Appendix No. 6 of the Third Report with the amount of "V" . 9|4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cartwright, of bills of exchange stated in the account B , given in by you on the 14th Esq. instant, the former appearing to be for seventeen years, amounting to ' £ 1 5,489,575, and the latter for eighteen years, amounting to^'22, 982,091, there is a difference in the accounts of nearly eight millions ; explain how this difference arses, as it does not appear to be accounted for by the deduc- tion of the additional years contained in your account B ? — In Account No* 6 is an account of payments for bills of exchange from India, from the 1st of March i7Q3 to the 1st of March 1810; and the other account is an account of the bills drawn from the various presidencies upon England, from S ptember 1792 to September 1810; the balance, I presume, after making allowance for the year omitted in the account of No 6, will be found in the increased amount of debt owing for bills running upon the Company in March 18.0. Referring to the account delivered in by you, stated to be an account of the balance of supplies between India and England, from the year 1792 3 ro the year lbOy 10 England, corresponding with the year 17y3 4 to ,810 11 India; can you explain upon what ground you have debited India for profit on exports, without crediting India for the profit upon imports? — The profit upon exports arises upon the sales of exports in India that are realized there ; tne profit upon imports arises from sales here; 1 do not sec the necessity of carrying that profit back again to India. Is the Committee to understand that the exports, goods, stores, and bullion t"> India, invoiced as amounting to £\§ h kq\. 53c), realized that sum in India, exclusive of the balance between the stated profit and loss on these exports ? — Certainly ; they have realized the prime cost, as stated in the invoice account, and also the profit stated in that account. Are you aware, that in an account No. 8, annexed to the Third Report, twelve mdlions of goods and stores sent out to India are stated to have realiz d there only eight millions ? — This is an account, intituled, " bums " received at the presidencies of Fori William, Fort St. George, and " B .mbay, for sales of import goods and stores, from the year 179 2-3 to " the year 180-> 9 inclusive ;" this is an account of sales, mine is the in- voice amount; probably this does not include the amount of stores that have been issued to the different military boards, which in all probability will account for the diiference ; but I cannot positively state it ; it is not an account of mine. Is the Committee to understand that there is no account of the stores used EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS 915 used for public purposes in India? — I have no doubt there are such ac- C. Cartwright, counts, but I have them not; the Auditor can furnish them. Esq. Have not the rates of exchange at which the bills have been drawn from India on England, as stated in the account above referred to, greatly ex- ceeded the fixed rates of exchange at which the imports are calculated ? — There is no doubt they do ; but as I am questioned respecting the rates of exchange, it is necessary for me to correct an error that I made in a former statement; I supposed that there might have been bills drawn from Madras, at the rate of gs, 6d. the pagoda ; upon reference to the advice book, I find no drafts have been made at that rate, the highest rate has been 9*. Was that for any amount ? — A considerable sum. What difference of exchange do you estimate there would be in pounds sterling, between the sums stated under the head of bills of exchange, j£22,gS2 y O?l, and that credited under the head of imports, invoice amount .£26,792,304, reckoning the latter at the rates of exchange at which the bills were drawn ? — I have made no such calculation ; and I stated, I believe, when I was questioned on this subject before, that I did not think it was proper that the commerce of India should be taxed for the difference between the rate of exchange as stated in account, and the rate at which bills are drawn, because,! conceive that the rate of exchange was not increased or operated upon for commercial purposes. Would not that difference, in your opinion, amount upon a very moderate computation, to 10 per cent. ? — I dare say it might. Do you give that answer upon anyexamination of the accounts' ?-—- - Certainly, I do not. Can you furnish such an account ? — I presume we might be able. Would it be possible to separate the bills of exchange drawn for com- mercial purposes, from those drawn for supplying the necessities of the state ? — I do not admit ti;at any have been drawn for commercial pur- poses, as I before stated; if the account of supplies between India and England is looked to, it shfws a surplus that England has afforded, as I before said, of eight millions ; therefore, I cannot imagine that any bills have been drawn for commercial purposes. Is the Committee to understand, that England has afforded to India a - sum "V- OTG MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Cai'horight, sum adequate to the amount of the imports, exclusive of the amount of Esq. the bills of exchange drawn from India and paid in this country ? — I 11 •• ' have not balanced the account, leaving out the bills of exchange, and therefore I cannot exactly say ; but all the political payments in England must be taken in as a supply to India. In your account just referred to, the goods, stores, and bullion, even at their invoice cost, only amount to nineteen millions in round numbers, whilst the realizations in cash in the Indian treasuries, during that period, would no doubt be considerably less ; the returns from India are stated at their invoice amount, at 26 millions in round numbers ; is it not evident, therefore, that the difference must have been made up by money raised on bills of exchange ?— No, it is not evident that it must. How is the amount to be made up ? — Bills have been drawn, but I do not admit that they have been drawn for commercial purposes ; this examination proceeds upon abstract accounts, and it is impossible to go into the matter in this way; all the political payments made in England for the nineteen years are a supply from England to India ; from the ac- count it appears that there is a total of ^7,800,000 paid here on account of the political disbursements of the Company ; the total of the exports is «£ 19,394, 5 '2 9 ; the total amount of the imports is ^26,792,301- ; the difference is about six millions in round numbers, leaving the bills totally our, so that England had to pay to India that six millions, which she has done by that .£7,800,000 of political charges. Does not the same account contain the sum of ,£5,879,000 received in the way of remittance from India, through the medium of his Majesty's government, to cover in part those political charges ? — Yes. Can you state what has been the out-turn of all the bullion sent from this country from the year 1792-3 to the present time, including the charges of coinage in Ii.dia, so as to ascertain i he amount at which the current rupee has been realized to the Company ? — I hrve made up an account for that purpose ; which if the Committee please, I will deliver in. [The account was delivered in, and read as follows : EAST-INDIA COMPANV3 AFFAIRS. 9"! « BULLION STATEMENT. C. Cnrfxcrtght, w The risk of cargoes and interest en capital being charged in nn , ] j " account before exhibited, it only remains, in staling the cost of the " Indian curences, to find the charge cf supplying the bulloin, and a'so V e " charges of coinage in ihe several mir.ts. " At 5*. 4d. - 1 — per oz. the average price paid by the Com- .v. d. " } any for silver exported sh.ee 17f)3> the sicca mpee " wou'd cost - - - - --22?; " Add 3^ per cent, for charges, coinage, refining, eJabl ;sh- " ment, &c. &c. - - - - — •> > 2 3«7 And the current rupee - - - - - 1 1 I s o The Arcot rupee would cost - - - 2 1 ■ s> « " Charges, coinage, 1^ per cent. - - - — 1 7 r 2 I J 7 *' And the star pagoda at 3-|- Arcot rupees for 1 pagoda - 7 5 j°* " The Bombay mpee would cost - - - - 2 — d Bft-'pefpag da, '2s. 3d. perBofflbay rupee, and " 6s - sd - P er tale, is - -"___, " Leaving a profit in this view, of - JOS 193 " But calculating the cost at Is. lid. s° the current rupee " 7*. 5d. s». the pagoda, 2s. \d. so. the Bombay rupee, " and 6.9. 5d. • », the tale, the rates before stated from the " cost of silver in England since 1793, the cost would be " £\, 4 14,490, and the profit - 163,204 " East India House, " 22d May 1813. " Errors excepted. (Signed) " C. Cartwrfght, Ace . pep .« This account exhibits a profit in the outturn of the specie sent from England to India, amounting to ,£327, 296 over and above the rate \i which it is estimated in your accounts ; has that profit been brought to the account of the commercial profits ? — It has not. Do you consider that that is a clear commercial profit : — I conceive it ought to be so considered, unquestionably. With respect to the bullion received from India and China, the account exhibits an actual profit of «£l08,493; has that been added in your state- ment to the commercial profits ? — No, it has not. Do you not think that this also is properly a commercial profit ? — J a u- ceivc it is. Then, under those circumstances, state why you have not included it specifically in your account as a commercial pro tit ? — I before stated to the Committee that we never looked upon the exchange account as a source either of profit or loss, it is merely a sort of money transaction between the two countries ; at some periods it may be profitable ; at other ; erioda there might arise a loss ; but, whether it was so or noi, we pever looke • I i profitor loss upon it ; it arose from the necessity of the case, the quantum of bullion exported arising from the necessities of the country. 6 I 2 I'pon $80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE CI Cartivright, Upon what principle do you say, that the gain by the remittance of Esq bullion to India should be considered as a commercial gain, and the loss v v — I by bills drawn from India upon England, should be considered as a political loss? — The bullion, I conceive, was necessary to be sent to India, for the purposes ot furnishing the return of cargoes; of course credit should be taken, 1 conceive, for the profit upon it, if any ; the profit upon it, I tonceive, should be a commercial one ; the latter part of the question, 1 presume, I have answered in a former answer ; as to the exchange with India, I have stated my reason for assuming that that rate of exchange is not operated upon by the effect of commerce ; that is my assumption. In the charges you have put upon the bullion, do you include the sa- laries of the mint-master and other mint servants ? — Yes. And the losses which have occurred ? — Yes, every thing is taken in. It appears that three and a half per cent, is the charge upon the sicca rupee, and it appears that the charge is only one and a half per cent, upon the Arcot rupee ; can you account tor that difference ? — I cannot positively account for it ; but the salaries of the officers are paid whether the quantity of busiiv ss done is more or less; if there should be a larger quantity of business done, the rate will be less, and 1 suppose it to arise from that. Cm you state the proportion of the salaries of the Board of Trade in Bengal', which should attach to the territorial concern on account ot the management of salt, opium, and customs? — Reckoning such salaries at jrT'25.0(.0 per annum, which the Auditor informs me is the correct charge, the proportion that should be deducted from the sum stated in the commercial amount ot ^3,251,592, as a charge on the above heads, will be in the nineteen years from 1793-4 to 1811-IS12, „£300,542, or Ji\ 5,818 per annum, which is in proportion to the gross receipt for salt, opium, and customs, and the gross cost of the investment. You state at the foot of the estimate, dated the 23d of February, cer- tain items which you say cannot be distributed in proportions between .the India and China trade ; among them there is on the freight outwards a remuneration to the commanders of worn out ships ; would it not be practicable to shew the proportions of freight outwards, which have fallen upon exports for'lndia and exports for China? — Freight outwards very ■seldom arises upon any China cargo, the India freight outwards arises, ^jrincipaUy, for fteight upon stores' sent out very often on Government account ; BAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. J)8l' account; the Company with their oun natural exports, could very sel- C. Carturight, dom have to pay freight oat at all, beca ise ihe ships are taken up under i\» ,. certain conditi >ns; if they are not loaded beyond a certain extent, no < y-' ' charge for freight outwards is made ; if there is more put on board, and it consists of stores for Government, it ought to be, and must in future be a revenue charge. Then this would chiefly fall en the India part of the concern ? — Yes ; but there is a remuneration also to captains of worn out ships. Might not that be distinguished between the Ch'na and India ships? — It might now, because the ships are distinguished for the China and India trade ; but that has not been so formerly ; and as to that part of the ac- count, no distinction could be made. There is a charge now upon the service of X5O0 a voyage, to remu- nerate the Company for what they paid to the captains formerly ; is that carried to account here after the deductions ? — Yes. With regard to the item of «£l 5,444,399 staged as commercial charge, general beyond the rate deducted in the calculations of profit u on sales no further distribution could be made in your opinion of it r — No, 1 con- ceive not. Do not you think it ought to be calculated upon a per centage o£ the sales from each trade ? — I cannot take upon myself to answer that with >ut consideration ; it appears plausible certainly, the whole being a per centage. The-e is another item which seems as if it might be easily referrable to- either trade; advances of freight to owners for lost ships; mu.t it not be according to the ships whether India or China ships ? — No, 1 conceive not ; because in the former part of the period, the ships went to both places; they began a voyage to Madras, and then went to China alter- wards ; they went to Madras for the purpose of conveying stores, and afterwards to China, to fetch a return cargo j if a ship is lost going to Madras, it is in part a China voyage; it is only a deviation, and therefore it is impossible to separate that. [The Witness withdrew. 0)62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THS THE Chairman called upon the Counsel for the East India Company, to state, whether they should call any more evidence. Mr. Impey stated, that they had proposed to call only one. other Witness, but who was prevented attending by indisposition, and that they should rest their case here. The Chairman called upon the Agents on behalf of the Petitioners from the out-ports and manufacturing districts, to state, whether they should produce any evidence in support of their petitions. Mr. Richardson stated, that the Petitioners did not think it necessary to produce any evidence. The Chairman called upon Mr. Lavie, "as Agent for the merchants, bankers, and manufacturers in the city ot London, interested in the East India and China import trade, to state, whether he should produce any evidence in support of that petition. Mr. Lavie stated, that the Petitioners did not think it necessary to call any evidence. The Chairman called upon Mr. Lavie, as Agent for the merchants of London, owners, and agents for the owners of East India built ships trad- ing to the port of London, to state, whether he should call any evidence in support of that petition. Mr. Lavie stated, that the Petitioners did not think it necessary to call . any evidence in support of their petition. Mr. Teasdale appeared as Agent for the Petition of several merchants, manufacturers, traders, and other persons engaged in, or connected with, the expart trade to India and China, from the port of London : .of several persons being shipwrights, caulkers, ship sawyers, ship smiths, ship joiners, treenail moulders, and boat build- ers, of the port of London : of mast makers, block makers, and gun-carriage makers, of the port of Lo?idon : of sail makers of the port of London : — t-ta of ship riggers of the port of London : of ship plumbers, painters,and glaizers, of the port of London : of persons engaged and employed in building, equipping and supplying East India and China shipping, in the port of London : Petition EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. Q83 Petition of smiths, coppersmith?, and anchor smiths, in the port of London : — — of ropemakers of the port of London : — And stated, that the Petitioners did not think it necessary, to call any evidence in support of those petitions. It was moved, that Jo/in Bebb, Esquire, be called for examination be- fore this Committee, which being put was negatived. [Adjourned to Thursday next, two o'clock. Jovls, 27° die Mai/, 1813. The Right Hon. John Sullivan in the Chair. CHARLES CARTWRIGHT, Esq. was called in, and further examined C. Cartwright, by the Committee as follows: Esq. HAVE you brought the Accounts, desired at the last Committee ? — I have: The first is an Account signed by the Auditor. " OBSERVATION on that part of the Question which relates to Advances for Investment. " The Account No. 14 Appendix to Third Report, is for seventeen ' years, from the first of May to 30th April in each. The Account of invoice amount, No. B. is for eighteen ye.nrs, September to September in each. It the Account No. 14, were continued for another year, the ad- vances will be JE'27,3 56,000 ; and the shipments by B. exclusive of bullion, being .£26,328,000, the difference, about a million, will be ' found in the increase of commercial property remaining on balance at the close of the period. East India House, (Signed) " Wm. Wright, 27th May 1813. " Auditor of Indian Accounts." THE 934 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carttcright, THE other part of the same Paper is explained by me, by this Paper. Esq. ' " EXPLANATION of the difference apparent between the Account " No. B, and the Account of Profit and Loss of the 23d February 1813, " insofar as regards the Column in No. B, headed, • Imports Invoice " Amount,' and the Column in the Estimate of Profit and Loss of 2'id " February 1813, headed, ' Prime Cost of Investment of Goods.' " The column in No. B, headed ' Imports Invoice Amount,' " is the actual shipment of cargoes in India, according " to the dates of the invoices, and embraces a period from " the 15th day of September 1793 to the 14th day of " September 181 1, eighteen years, and amounts to - O £ > 26,792,30t " The column in the estimate of profit and loss of the 23d ts Eebruary 1813, headed ' Prime Cost of Investment of " Goods, is the cost of the goods actually sold in England, " and embraces a period from the 1st day of March 1793 " to the 1st day of March 1812, nineteen years, and " amounts to _----_. 25,134,67 " From this statement, it will be apparent, that an exact " coincidence cannot exist ; but the following adjustment " will reconcile the difference : " Prime cost of investment of goods from 1st March 1793, " to 1st March 1812, nineteen years, as per estimate of " profit and Joss of 23d February 1813 - - - 25,134,672 " Deduct prime cost of goods sold in the year " 1793 4, being shipped in India before the " period comprehended in the account, " No. B. ,£'1,220,106 " Prime cost of goods unsold in England on 1st " of March 1794, the invoices of these goods " being dated before the period compre- " hended in Account B - - - 747,000 1,967,106 Carried forward <£23, 167,566 " Add EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S AFFAIRS. D65 Brought forward " Add prime cost of cargoes lost homeward - 1,-lOf), I Q5 " Cost of saltpetre supplied government, de- " ducting the amount shipped in India before " the period comprehended in account No. B - 355/2!' 1 " Cost of hemp imported on account of go- " vernment - 83,779 " Cost of rice imported at the desire of govern- " ment, upon which government paid the " loss .... 54,630 " Cost of saltpetre destroyed by fire - - 1 6,500 " Cost of goods unsold 1st March ] 8 12 - 1,192,330 " Value of bullion imported, not stated among the sales of Indian goods, in account of profit and loss of 23d February 1813 - 464,278 " Cost of Cargoes arrived since 1st March 1812, " the invoices of which were dated within " the period comprehended in account No. B - 46,824 .£23, J 67,566 C. Cartwrwkt, cc ft 3,622,436 ^20,790,002 " Amount of imports from India in the column " headed '• Imports Invoice Amount," of Account No. B - ,£26,792,304 " Amount of the column in the estimate of profit and 1 ss of 23d February 1813, headed " Prime Cost of In- vestment of Goods," with its various adjustments - £"26,790,002 cc " East India House, " the 27th May 1813. Errors excepted. (Signed) " Chas. Cartiv right, Ace*. Gen 1 ." — V" THE next was, " The STATEMENT required to account for the difference in Amount, on " comparison of the Appendix' No. 6 of the Third Report, -with the " Amount of Bills slated in the Account B, given in by the Accountant " General on the \5lh instant. " Amount Bills of Exchange paid from the 1st March " 1793 to 1st March 1810, after deducting therefrom " Bills from India in favour of the Company Xl5,4SO,575 Carried forward - XlJ, 189,575 6 K 986* MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON THE C. Carlwright, _ Brought forward - £\ 5,489,57 5 Esq. « Add Bills in favour of the Company from India, received ' v ' " from 1st March 1793 to the 1st March SlO, deducted " above - 873,225 " Bills paid since 1st March 1810, dated previous to 15th " September 1811, and Bills now running on the Com- " pany, dated previous to the 15th September 1811 - 9,123,875 .£25,486,675 " Deduct bills paid since 1st March 17g3, dated previous " to 15th September 1793 - 2,504,584 «* Amount of bills drawn from India, dated between 1 5th " September 1793 and 15th September 1811 - - " .£22,982,091 ■ n 1 ■ ■ J- ■ ■■ ■■ ■ ■< " East Inda House, " the 27th May 1813. (Signed) " Cha'. Cartwright, Ace. General." THE other Account was \ STATEMENT to shew the Amount that has been, or will be, paid r cr Bilk for Exchange drawn from India, from 1 bth September 17Q3 to September 1811, beyond the current Rates of 2f. per Current Ru- " 7 'e Pagoda, and 2s. 3d. the Bombay Rupee." Paid more than Paid less than the above rates. the above rates. " Beng.. - - .£533,653 - - .£75,805 " Madras - - 210,474 - - 15,270 " Bombay - - 534,200 - - 5,373 £ 1,27 8,327 .£96,448 " Deduct - - 96,448 " Balance paid for Bills drawn as"*| "above, 1793 to 1811, more V£ 1,1 8 1,879 " than t t he current rates -J " East India House, " the 27th May 1813. (Signed) " Cha' Cartwright, Accounr t . General." [The Witness withdrew. [Adjourned sine die. GENERAL INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. N. B. L. refers to the Lords Committees, C. to the Committee of the zvholc House of Commons, and S. C. to the Select Committee. Pago Beale, Daniel, Esq ... L. 209; S. C. 751 Bainbridge, John, Esq S. C. 951 Brown, Robert, Esq L. 221 ; S. C. 791 Buller, Charles, Esq. Mi P L. 134; S.C. 485 Cartwright, Charles, Esq L. 217 ; S. C. 812, S54, 963, 983 Cazenove, James, Esq J.. 225 Clarke, William Stanley, Esq L. 189 ; S. C. 669 Cockburn, Thomas, Esq L. 105 ; S. C 444, 454 Cowper, William, Esq L. 11 ; C. 35, 51 Cox, RicharJ Waite, Esq S. C. 887 Davics, William, Esq L. 167 ; S. C. 630 Dick, Mungo, Esq ( " S. C. 915 Drummond, James, Esq S. C. 867 Fairlic, William, Esq L. 152; C. 135 Falconer, Alexander, Esq S. C. 435, 453 Graham, Thomas, Esq ; L. 56 ; C. 60 Haliburton, David, Esq L. 96 ; C. 138 Hastings, Warren, Esq. J L. 2 ; C. 1 Horsburgh, James, Esq L. 130 ; S. C. 731 Kyd, Major-Gcneral Alexander L. 42; C.I 17 Larken, Mr. Edmund S. C. 807 Law, E'.van, Esq. , , L. 13S 988 GENERAL INDEX TO THE EVIDENCE. Page Lee, Mr. John S. C. 509 Lindsay, Honourable Hugh L. 136; C. 170 Lindsay, Martin, Esq - L. 193; S. C. 703 Lushington, Stephen Rumbold, Esq. M. P L. 140 Malcolm, Lieutenant-Colonel Sir John L. 17; C. 85; S. C. 684 Malet, Sir Charles Warre, Bart L. 177 ; S. C. 401 Mercer, Graeme, Esq , L. 99 ; C. 143 Morris, Robert, Esq L. 125 ; S. C. 620 Munro, Pieutenant-Colonel L. 69 ; C. 199 ; S. C. 274 Murray, Thomas Garland, Esq. .. S. C. 713 Nicholas, Robert, Esq , I..243 ; S. C. 330 Prendergast, Guy Lenox, Esq L. 89 ; C. 154 Ranking, Mr. Joseph ►. S. C. 781, 854 Roe, William, Esq L. 228 j C. 257 Sedgwick, James, Esq S. C. 516 Smith, William Bruce, Esq L. 175 ; C. 161 Staunton, Sir George Thomas, Bart L. 199 ; S. C. 739 Stracey, John, Esq .. L. 86 ; S. C. 492 Styan, Mr. Thomas S. C. 94 Sydenham, Thomas, Esq L. 122 ; S. C. 522, 598 TeK-mmouth, Right Honourable Lord L. 31; C. 14, 49 Vanderheyden, David, Esq. M. P L. 149 ; C. 148 Venn, Mr. Edward S C. 937 Vivian, John, Esq L. 250 ; S. C. 355 Willis, James, Esq S. C. 502 Wilson, Glocester, Esq L. 239 ; S. C. 288 Wilson, Lestock, Esq L. 162, 196 ; C. 179 Woolmore, John, Esq , L. 170; S. C. 540 Young, William, Esq L.33;C.135 a LIST OF EVIDENCE EXAMINED 15EFOKE The Select Committee of the Honourable the House of Commons. Pafe Colonel Munro 2 i-i Glocester Wilson, Esq. 288 Robert Nicholas, Esq 330 John Vivian, Esq. 355 Sir Charles Warre Malet, Bart 401 Alexander Falconar, Esq 435, 453 Thomas Cockburn, Esq 411. 45 j Charles Buller Esq 4S5 John Stracey, Esq , 492 James Willis, Esq. 502 Mr. John Lee 509 James Sedgwick, Esq. ., 51 5 Thomas Sydenham, Esq 522, 598 John Woolmore, Esq. 5 10 Robert Morris, Esq 620 William Davies, Esq 630 William Stanley Clarke, Esq 669 Lieutenant-Colonel Sir John Malcolm 684 Martin Lindsay, Esq 703 Thomas Garland Murray, Esq . . , 713 James Horsburgh, Esq 731 2 M* » LIST OF EVIDENCE. Page Sir George Thomas Staunton, Bart '„, t ~ ~ tt ^ 39 Daniel Beale, Esq ^5 ^ Mr. Joseph Ranking *8i 354 Mr. Robert Brown 79 1 Mr. Edmund Larken 807 Char! Cartwright, Esq 812,854,963,983 James Drum mond, Esq 861 Bichard WaiteCox, Esq. .. ... 887 Mungo Dick, Esq , ., .,916 Mr Edward Venn 937 Mr. Thomas Styan 942 John Bainbridge, Esq... 951 Papers laid before the Committee in the course of the Examinations. Extract of a Letter from Sir Charles Warre Malet, Bart, to the Governor-General, in 1788, on the subject of the disposition of the Peishwah to encourage an addi- tional Commercial Intercourse, ------ 407 Expences and Earnings of the Family of a Madras Labourer, consisting of himself, his wile, and live children, the eldest eight years of age, the youngest an infant, 452 Table of the Necessaries of Life generally in use among the Hindoos - 455 F.xpences of a Madras middling Hindoo Family of six men, a boy of five years of age, and twelve women ; in all nineteen persons - 456 Standing Orders of the Court of Directors of the United Company of Merchants of England trading to the East Indies, for preventing the Deviation of Ships emplov- ed in the Company's Service, and lor the Detection and Punishment of Persons who shall be concerned in Illicit Trade ----- 509 Queries transmitted to the Commissioners of the Customs, in a Letter from George Harrison, Esq. - dated 28th Jtriy 1*812 ----- 570 Answers of the principal East India Officers - 571 Answers of the Surveyor of His Majesty's Warehouse and his Assistant - 576 Answer of the Surveyor of Sloops ----- 577 PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMITTER. u | Returns from the Principal Officers at various Outports, viz. Dover, Cowes, Fowev, Falmouth, Penzance, Bristol, Milford, Hull, Preston, and Liverpool, 577 to5S7 Queries transmitted to the Commissioners of Customs, in a Letter from Gen, Harrison, Esq. dated 20th November 1812 ... _ 5S8 Answers of the principal P'.ust India Officers - 5SS Returns from principal Officers at various Outports, viz. Cowes, Bristol, Liver- pool, Hull, Falmouth, Penzance, and Milford 539 to 597 Terms and Conditions under which the East India Company furnish Tonnagi ex- clusive of that to be provided by the Act of the 33d of his present Majesty, cap. 52. 632 Account of Tonnage and principal Articles exported by Individuals on Freight, from 1793-4 to 1810-11 inclusive - - - '- - 651 Estimate of the Profit or Loss upon all Goods sold by the Fast India Company from the year 1793-4- to the year 1811-1812 inclusive: distinguishing India and China, and specifying the Invoice Price, Customs, Freight,and Charges respectively ■ also' the Sale Amount - _ . ._ _ . m g 19 Remarks on Profit and Loss on India Trade .... $22 Account of the Balance of Supplies between India and England from the year 1792-3 to the year 1809-10 England, corresponding with the year 1793-4 to 1810.11 Jndia " - - 826 Statement to shew the Sum realised, and expected to be realised, by the East India Company from their Commerce ; from Receipts from Government ; from In- crease ot Capital Stock, and Bond Debt, from 1st March 1793 to 1st March 1814, being the period to which the statements contained in the Company's petition to Parliament were carried ; and also a statement exhibiting the expenditure of those fu,lds 838 Regulations for re-enacting, with modifications and amendments, the rules passed on the 23d July 1 787, and subsequent d-.tes, for the conduct of the commercial resi- dents and agents, and all persons employed or concerned in the provision of the Company s Investment - , . . . . •_ g04 Copies of circular Letters sent on the 13th and 20th July 1810, bv orders of the Go- vernor-General in Council of Fort William, to the Magistrates under that Presidency - - . . _ 9lg Freight and Demorage from 1st March 181 2, shewing the amount paid, and how the same has been carried to account - _ . _ 054 Charges General from 1st March 1793 to 1st March 1S12, shewing the amount paid, and how the same has been carried to account .... gco Losses by Sea included in the account of profit and loss of the 23d February 1813 968 Bullion Statement ------_. 977 Mr. Wright's observation on a question relating to advances for investment - 988 Mr. Cartwright's explanation of apparent difference in two accounts - 98+ Statement to account for a difference in -two accounts - - . yss Statement to shew the amount that has been or will be paid for hills of exchange drawn from India, from 15th September 1793 to 15th September 18 1 1, beyond the current rates - _ _ . _. _ , 8 , ; *-4* In referring to the Numbers of the Minutes of Evidence printed by 0> of the Honourable the House of Commons, from which the following reprinted, it will be necessary to notice that No. 12, being the Minutes taken on 15th April, ISI3, is contained in pages 274 to 13 > 22.1 313 — 14 > 23d 355 — 15 > 26th 390 — '6, 27th 422 — Hi 28th 453 — 18 > 29th , 435 19 > 3d May 515 — 20 > 4th 534 — 21 , 5th 59S — 22, 6th . . 62S — 23, 7th 669 — 24, . . . 10th , 703 — 25, 11th ......751 — 26, 13th 791 — 27, 14th 822 — 28, 17th 835 — 29, 18th 854 — 30, 1 9th 367 — 31, 20th 916 — 32, 21st 951 — 33, 24th 963 — ! 34, , 27th , 9S3 — i UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES THE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY This book is DUE on the last date stamped below NOV 7 195 'J JAN 8 W& JUW7 m\ APR 2 19S3 r r rece;i NOV 2 AM 7-4 419 -9 »- 10 4 Form L-fl SOm-1,' 42(8510) B*:'. ic. samejiRroowi l^^ ,. D 000 724flft