,_, . _ ,_, ii^;- 
 
 THE 
 
 INTER-DEPARTMENTAL 
 COMMITTEE 
 
 ON 
 
 POST OFFICE ESTABLISHMENTS 
 
 BEING 
 
 A VERBATIM REPORT OF THE EVIDENCE 
 GIVEN BEFORE LORD TWEEDMOUTH AND 
 COMMITTEE BY THE REPRESENTATIVES OF 
 THE POSTMEN S FEDERATION. 
 
 PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE 
 (^ POSTMEN'S FEDERATION. 
 FOR FRIVA.TE SALE. 
 
 ICOtYRIGlJT.^ 
 
 Printed bt ALEX. MALCOLM «& CO., 34 Ann Street, Citv, Glasgoav; 
 AND 1 & 2 BouvEEiE Street, Fleet Street, London. E.C.
 
 THIS BOOK 
 IS RESPECTFULLY DEDICATED TO THE 
 
 POSTMEN WITNESSES 
 
 WHO SO FAITHFULLY AND WELL 
 
 DISCHARGED THEIR DUTY TO THEIR COMRADES 
 
 THROUGHOUT THE UNITED KINGDOM 
 
 IN SUB3IITTING THE 
 
 postmen's CASE FOR ENQUIRY 
 
 TO THE 
 
 INTER-DEPARTMENTAL CO:\IMITTEE ON 
 
 POST-OFFICE ESTABLISHMENTS, 
 
 PRESIDED OVER BY 
 
 THE RIGHT HON, LORD TWEEDMOUTH. 
 
 Jab. C. Bkow'x, 
 
 Editor "PcBtman's Gazette,"
 
 PREFACE. 
 
 The histon' of the birth and growth of the movement for an 
 ameHoration in the condition of that important body of Civil 
 Servants — the Postmen of the United Kingdom — is con- 
 tained in this volume, and constitutes a magnificent record of 
 what may be accomplished by steadfastness of purpose and 
 unity of forces. The events which led to the formation of 
 the Postmen's Federation, and the labours of that body when 
 established, compelled the abandonment by the higher officials 
 of the Service of that old-time Conservatism — and here we 
 speak not of politics, but of policy — which treated the rank 
 and file as mere machines, with no power to think or act for 
 themselves, and no right to combine in order to secure the 
 redress of their grievances. But the old order of things has 
 now almost disappeared. The advance of democratic senti- 
 ment has gained for all working men — be they State servants 
 or in private employment — the right to join hands for the 
 common good. Combination has, in fact, been legalised, the 
 claims of manhood have been recognised, and the English- 
 speaking working man to-day stands proudly before the whole 
 world the possessor of privileges and the holder of an in- 
 dependent position which mark him out for the envy of his 
 ilass in all foreign countries. The accompanying volume con- 
 tains a faithful record — reproduced in larger measure from 
 the "Postman's Gazette" — of the work done by members of 
 the Federation, jointly, as well as individually, on behalf of 
 the Postmen of the United Kingdom. It will constitute a 
 peimanent memorial of the painstaking and unwearied efiforts 
 of the witnesses who were selected to lay before Lord Tweed- 
 mouth's Committee on the Post Office Establishments the 
 various Branches of the Postmen's case; it shows with what
 
 PREFACE. 
 
 unexampled care facts were collated and marshalled so as 
 to enable the witnesses to successfully withstand the searching 
 cioss-examination of the highly-skilled Treasury and other 
 permanent officials who were associated with Lord Tweed- 
 mouth in the Inquiry ; and, above all, its pages contain ample 
 ■proof of the justice of the claims put forward, and of the 
 necessity of the investigation in those columns which are 
 devoted to the Evidence of the Departmental Witnesses who 
 felt it their duty to recommend many alleviations in, and im- 
 provements of, tlie Postmen's lot. Time alone will show the 
 real extent of the success achieved. Much, however, has 
 undoubtedly been gained, and in this should be found an 
 incentive to even greater effort in the future. It is in th* 
 hope that every Postman — old and young — will acquire a 
 copy, will read, mark, leaiTi, and inwardly digest its contenti^ 
 and will benefit by the morals to be drawn therefrom, that 
 the Editor of the "Postman's Gazette" has prepared this 
 book for publication. 
 
 Glasgow, 
 19th September, 1896.
 
 A CHAPTER 
 
 OF 
 
 POSTAL SERVICE HISTORY, 
 
 (FROM A POSTMAN'S POINT OF VIEW.) 
 
 So far back as 1860, the Times gave a dismal account of the 
 condition of the Post Office Service, and warmly espoused the 
 cause of the London letter-carriers. It said : — " Hard-worked and 
 ill-paid, these men are / all discontented and sullen ; they are 
 ir.different to the proper performance of their duty, and hold the 
 threat of dismissal in utter disdain, feeUng sure, as they say, that even stone- 
 breaking at the roadside would not be harder work and scarcely less re- 
 munerative." Through lack of data, however, we are unable to follow up 
 closely the various movements that have been afoot since th^n for the 
 amelioration of the conditions of service of the postmen's class Many of 
 these movements would appear to have partaken largely of a local character 
 — that is, the different offices attempting separately. The earliest traces of 
 united action of which we have any record date from 1879, when the estab- 
 lished letter-carriers of certain offices were threatened with a reduction of 
 2s. a week. It appears, in June, , 1874, when for a time wages ruled high, 
 a pro\dsional allowance of 2s. a week was granted to each established post- 
 man in certain large towns. As far as can be ascertained, this allowance was 
 given to all appointed postmen — to those at the maximum and intermediate 
 figures, as well as to those at the initial wage. The allowance appears to 
 have been given to new entrants till the end of 1876, or the beginning of 
 1877. Those who had been in receipt of it, ho->>'ever, were allowed to retain 
 it till 1879, when for aj few weeks it was withdrawn, but only to be re- 
 newed very shortly, in consequence of the widespread dissatisfaction caused 
 by its withdrawal. In defending themselves against loss of allowance, ex- 
 tensive correspondence took place between the letter-carriers of the principal 
 towns in the United Kingdom. In addition to being successful in getting 
 the allowance restored, this correspondence served to awaken the letter-car- 
 riers to the fact that their conditions of service were not what they might 
 be. That there wag reasonable ground for complaint may be gathered from 
 the naive admission contained in the Budget speech of Mr. Gladstone on 
 24th April, 1882. Speaking on the Post Office, he said: — 
 
 " I think I ought to state, in justice to all parties, that great care appears 
 
 I'^JS 
 
 •io^
 
 Introduction. 
 
 to have been taken by the late Government in restricting the extension of 
 the establishment. The pressure since we came into office has i-eached a point 
 which is extreme, and although, I hope, the Post Office will go on increasing, 
 yet the percentage of the cost for collection of revenue, I am afraid, will 
 show some increase also." 
 
 By 1881, the disaffection in the ranks of the letter-carriers began to find 
 vent in petitions to the Postmaster-General. The general petition of the 
 London letter-carriers was dated 26th April, 1881, and petitions from other 
 towns came pouring in about the same time. After considerable waiting, 
 without signs of an answer, the matter was taken up in Parliament by 
 friendly M.P.'s, amongst whom the memory recalls with gratitude the fol- 
 lowing names : — Schreiber, Summers, M'Culloch-Torrens, MacLiver, and 
 Biggar. 
 
 In the House of Commons, on 10th July, 1882, the Right Hon. H. Faw- 
 cett, Postmaster-General, said, in reply to a question by Mr. Summers, 
 M.P. : — "Without troubling the House as to detail, I may state generally 
 that the effect of the decision will be, as regards the majority of letter-car- 
 riers employed in London, to raise their scale at the maximum by 2s. a week, 
 and to substitTite an annual increment for a triennial one. In the country 
 the scales will be reduced from 27 in number to 7, and these are in every case 
 higher than those they supersede. The system of good conduct stripes, 
 carrying with them allowances of Is., 2s., and 3s. a week, will be extended 
 to the country (provinces?), and in this respect the suburbs of London will 
 be pla(Ced on the same footing as London proper is now. In the case of 
 the auxiliaries in London whose time is only partially occupied by their 
 official duties, their pay for the early morning delivery will be raised from 
 lOd. to Is. a morning, and after they have served five years as auxiliaries, it 
 is my intention, provided that they fulfil the conditions prescribed by the 
 Civil Service Commissioners, and are eligible in other respects, to promote 
 them to the establishments as opportunities occur." 
 
 In reply to a further question, Mr. Fawcett said : — " The revision will 
 date from the time the decision was arrived at — that is, from the end of 
 last week." 
 
 Mr. Callan, M.P., wanted to know "why the new scale \for letter-carriers 
 was not retrosrjective, the same ais in the case of the sorters and telegraph- 
 ists." In reply, Mr. Fawcett said : — " I halve to state that, having fully con- 
 sidered the memorials of the letter-caiTiers, I procured the assent of the 
 Treasury to the scheme, and which, I trust, without retrospective payment, 
 meets the merits of the case." 
 
 In connection with the Fawcett Revision, the following points are worthy 
 of note : — 
 
 (1) The postmen in receipt of the 2s. provisional allowance did not really 
 
 get " their scale increased at maximum by 2s. per week." They simply 
 got the j)rovisional allowance converted into permanent wages. 
 
 (2) From 1882 to October, 1891, the number of good-conduct stripes al- 
 
 lotted to each locality was limited; so that many men who had duly 
 qualified for stripes haJd to wait a further indefinite period for vacan- 
 cies to occur.
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service History. 
 
 (3) By the Fawcett Revision the boon of a.nnual holidays was extended to 
 
 rural postmen for the first time — ^but only a week. 
 
 (4) The intention of Mr. Fawcett with regard to the London auxiliaries 
 
 does not appear to have been given effect to in its entirety. 
 
 The movement which culminated in the Fawcett Revision originated with 
 the large towns — those towns that were affected with the loss of the 23. 
 allowance. After the movement had begun a few of the smaller towns 
 joined in. At that time the necessity for a letter-carriers' society became 
 apparent. Partly through fear of victimisation of its leaders, the proposal 
 to form a society fell through. Doubtless the soothing effect of the Fawcett 
 Revision also helped the proposal to fall to the ground ; for revisions, even 
 of a moderate character, go to allay discontent. 
 
 The Parcel Post was commenced in August, 1883. Originally, town post- 
 men were to have been exempted from parcels work ; but the extortionate 
 charge exacted by the railway companies for the carriage of rail-borne par- 
 cels was such that it seriously threatened the success of the new venture, as 
 the Post Office would have to work it at a big loss if they carried out the 
 original intentions. As a mode of economy, the Parcel Post delivery was 
 saddled on to the ordinary letter-carriers without any extra payment. At 
 this juncture it once more became apparent the mistake which the letter- 
 carriers had made in not forming a society to watch over their interests. 
 The existence of a well-equipped letter-carriersi' society at this period could 
 easily have compelled the authorities to have matde better arrangements for 
 the Parcel Post than obtained during the first few years after its introduc- 
 tion. To prevent the regular letter-delivering force from having grounds 
 to object to do Paxcel Post work, the class designation was changed from 
 letter-carrier to postman. Tliis change of nam.e was approved of by a meet- 
 ing of Surveyors, and was put in operation in October, 1883. 
 
 For the next few years matters were drifting from ba'd to worse. The 
 rates of postage had meanwhile been reduced and popularised. This re- 
 sulted in a great increase of work, but there was not a corresponding increase 
 of force. The result was that all over the country postmen were over- 
 worked, and had very bad hours of attendaince. The employment of un- 
 established labour was systematically and extensively resorted to. In this 
 way the postmen did not reap the benefit they expected from the Fawcett 
 Revision. 
 
 A Royal Conmiission on the Civil Service, under the chairmanship of Sir 
 Matthew White Ridley, was appointed in 1886. (?) 
 
 The order of reference of the Ridley Commission was in the following 
 terms : — " You will state whether in your opinion the work of the different 
 offices is sufficiently and economically performed ; whether it might be simpli- 
 fied ; whether the method of procedure catn be improved and the system of 
 control is deficient or unnecessarily elaborate. As ten years have now 
 elapsed since the adoption of the scheme of organisation recommended by the 
 Playfair Commission, the time has come when the working of the scheme 
 may with advantage be reviewed. You will therefore report whether the 
 scheme has been fairly tried ; whether its provisions have met with the
 
 Introduction. 
 
 approval of the Service ; and whether modifications are needed to give it 
 complete development." 
 
 In common with other branches of the Civil Service, the Post Office ser- 
 vants were invited to submit evidence. Accepting the invitation, the post- 
 men of many towns prepared a statement of postmen's case, and applied for 
 an opportunity to give oral evidence, and even going to the extent of 
 nammg their witnesses. But the Commissioners got tired of their work 
 long before the " manipulative branches " of the Post Office Service could 
 be. reached. So the postmen had no innings before the Ridley Commission. 
 
 About this time a society known as the United Kingdom Postmen'.s Associa- 
 tion was formed. Its affairs were managed by an Executive Committee of 
 London postmen, with Tom Dredge (of N.W.D.O.) as general secretary. 
 For some time this society showed considerable vitality, and it had branches 
 in the principal towns throughout the country ; and in connection with it 
 was a fortnightly journal called the " Postal Service Gazette," which enjoyed 
 ^considerable vogue. 
 
 In axidition to the sunmiary dismissal of Dredge, some of the other men 
 who had taken prominent part in the agitation suffered jwrsecution through 
 espionage and consequent trumphed-up charges. The success of the great 
 Dock strike, however, suggested new possibilities for trade unionism among 
 postmen. If the dockers could be led on to victory through the instrumen- 
 tality of the "nasty outside agitator," why not postmen? A postmen's 
 society, officered largely by outsiders, could act with greater boldness than 
 a society on the so-called constitutional lines, for at that time the conditions 
 of service were so irlcsoms as to cull for a bold advocacy of the postmen's cause. 
 As a result the Postmen's Union was formed. This society was a child of 
 tlie "^SiTew Unionism." In its rules and constitution it more closely re- 
 sembled the lecent labour tmions rather than the older and more staid trade 
 Societies. The General Secretary, Mr. J. L. Mahon, was an engineer to 
 trade, and received his trades union education in the Amalgamated Society 
 of Engineers, one of the most complete in all the trades unions. The majority 
 of the Union Executive were also men connected intimately with the 
 "New Unionism" movement. Hence the policy of the Union was modelled 
 on regular trades imion lines, looking towards a strike as an ultimate weapon 
 to force its claims. That these were altogether wrong lines to conduct a 
 postmen's movement is now pretty well admitted. But with all its faults 
 and shortcomings, the Union movement did immense good service for the 
 postmen. Even as remote from the centre of the agitation as Glasgow the 
 postmen were much more considerately treated since the Union movement 
 loomed large. Formerly human flesh was scarcely a factor to be considered 
 at all by the Department. At the conunencement of tlie Postmen's Union 
 Dredge was a member of its Executive, but he soon had an opportunity to get 
 re-instated in the Service, on writing an apology, which he did. From his 
 re-instatement he would appear to have severed his connection with the Union. 
 
 In his capacity as general secretary, Tom Dredge convened a mass meet- 
 ing of the London postmen to take place in the Memorial HaJl, Farringdou 
 Street, for the purpose of discussing their grievances. This action was re-
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service Histoiy. 9 
 
 garded by the authorities as a breach of the old rule which prohibited the 
 holding by officers of the Department any meeting beyond the walls of the 
 Post Office for the discussion of official questions. This rule was made by 
 Lord Stanley of Alderley so far back as 1866, and. its existence was entirely 
 unknown to many in the Service. Even those who knew of its existence re- 
 garded it as a dead letter, seeing it had been promulgated twenty years 
 previously, and had since been allowed to fall into disuse. Dredge was dis- 
 missed the Service. About this time, also, the " Postal Service Gazette " 
 got into trouble. It had become involved in an expensive libel action, and, 
 as a result, ceased publiaition. With Dredge's dismissal and the stoppage 
 of the " Gazette," the U.K. Postmen's Association gradually collapsed. 
 
 The following article, written by a well-informed and — on the whole — an 
 impartial writer, is culled from the 1891 issue of "Hazell's Annual."' Aa 
 it is admitted by competent authorities to be the best history of the Union 
 movement written, no apology is made for quoting it pretty fully : — 
 
 "The Postmen's Union was formed in October, 1889, with a man named 
 Mahon as secretary and an Executive, including a man natmed Donald. 
 When the Union took a workable form it was freely joined by the postmen. 
 . . . The programme laid down by the Union was- — First, that the rule 
 prohibiting the right of postal employees to meet and discuss their griev- 
 ances in public be cancelled, a^nd that the Postmen's Union be recognised by 
 the authorities in matters of dispute as to wages, working hours, etc. ; 
 second, that the normal eight hours' working day shall be worked as nearly 
 continuous as possible, and in no case shall it be spread over more than 
 twelve consecutive hours ; third, that all time worked over eight hours per 
 day be paid for at the rate of time and a half; fourth, that the auxiliary 
 staff be added to the established staff, that the wages for all men starting 
 shall be 24s. per week, and that an annual increment of Is. 6d. should be paid to 
 all men until 40s. 6d. be reached. Meetings were frequently held, and the 
 Department soon made it known that its policy was not to recognise the 
 Union, and to enforce the official rules as to the non-discussion of Depart- 
 mental matters in public. Men were punished for attending meetings of the 
 Union, and this action gave impetus to the membership. But it was not till 
 June that the agitation assumed a serious aspect. Meanwhile, it should be 
 stated, the sorters had formed themselves into a Fawcett Association. The 
 first meeting was held outside the Post Office, and without official sanction, 
 and took place at the Memorial Hall, Farringdon Street, on 10th February, 
 1890. It was a meeting of sorters, whose special grievances were set forth 
 ia detail. They .claimed that they were entitled, on the basis of the Faw- 
 cett scheme, to insist ujjon such a classification as would ensure payment of 
 work according to quality. Resolutions were passed regretting that the 
 Postmaster-General had not given consent to the -appointment of a Com- 
 mittee to inquire into the Fawcett scheme, threatening that if the usual 
 methods failed to secure them the fulfilment of that scheme they would 
 communicate with the Treasury, and forming an association for mutual 
 benefit of the sorting force, called the Fawcett Association. The action of 
 this body was subsequently of first importance, as will be seen later on;
 
 lO iNTROBUCrlON. 
 
 but it is sufficient now to state that there were two organisations within the 
 London postal ranks — one known as the Postmen's Union, which was 
 officered and worked by outside agitators; and the other, the Fawcett 
 Association, consisting of sorters and officered by men within the Service. 
 When postmen were suspended and had their pay reduced for attending meet- 
 ings, the Union became more aggressive. On June 20th, the Union issued 
 an appeal to the public, setting forth that the Postiii aster-General had re- 
 peatedly stated that they were entitled to form in a trade Tinion ; that for 
 six months the rule forbidding postmen to afttend meetings for discussion of 
 questions of work and wages elsewiiere than in the Post Office itself 
 had been allowed to remain a dead letter ; but that an order had now been 
 issued allowing outside meetings, only on condition (1) that notice was given 
 to the postal authorities ; (2) that none but postal employees be present ; 
 (3) that an official shorthand writer be admitted. The Union claimed that 
 these conditions made combination impossible. On the occasion of the 
 Guildliall Banquet to celebrate the Jubilee o;f the Penny Post, 
 a procession of postmen had been broken up by the police, 
 and had held a meeting at Clerkenwell Green. At this meeting the 
 representatives of the authorities had taken the numbers of men 
 attending, and these men had been suspended until they gave an apology 
 for attending the meetings of the (Union, and promised, not to repeat the 
 olfence, and had been punished by deprivation of pay and by reduced wages 
 consequent upon the cancelment of good conduct stripes. The Union de- 
 nounced this conduct of Mr. Raikes as tyrannical, and appealed for support 
 to Trades Unions and the public, on the principle that the postmen had unre- 
 stricted right to attend public meetings of the Union for the ventilation of 
 their grievances. 
 
 Up to this point the public had not taken a keen interest in the quarrel, 
 which was, however, brought prominently to their attention by a riotous 
 meeting in Hyde Park on Sunday, June 20th, when men who were supposed 
 to be Post Office spies, attending for the purpose of taking the numbers of 
 men for further punishments, were mobbed and ill-treated by the crowd. 
 Nine men were suspended for aittending this meeting, and asked to say why 
 they should not be dismissed the Service, the reply bemg that when they 
 were off duty they could attend what meetings they liked. 
 
 "On July 7th, a mass meeting of about 2,000 postmen was held in the 
 Holborn Town Hall, w'hen the following demands were unanimously formu- 
 lated : — (1) That all Departmental limitations as to the right of meeting be 
 cancelled; (2) that all men reduced or suspended shoiild be reinstated and 
 their stoppages of pay refunded ; aind (3) that in matters affecting the rate 
 of pay the Department should deal with the Postmen's Union. It was also 
 decided that the intervention of the London Trades' Council be accepted, 
 and that no further action be taken — if the result was reported within twelve 
 days, and if the Department took no steps with a view to supplanting the 
 labour of the men then in the Service, in the event of failure of negotiations. 
 In preparation for a strike the authorities had called in much of the reserve 
 labour of the Dei^aj-tment, and as the agitation developed, it was seen that
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service History. - 11 
 
 the non-union and the union men were fairly equally balanced in the jwint 
 of numbers. The Union made strenuous efforts to increase its membership, 
 and succeeded in many districts, although they were unable to induce the 
 " blacklegs," as they called them, to retire. Mr. Raikes, who was at this 
 period often questioned in the House of Commons by Mr. Conybeare, M.P., 
 who was associated with the Union, stated in the House that the question 
 would never have assumed its then proportions had it not been for the un- 
 called-for interference of professional agitators ; that the disaffected men were 
 not indispensable to the Department, and that he was fully prepared to 
 efficiently maintain the Postal Service in the Metropolis. He declioed to 
 receive a deputation from the London Trades' Council. On the morning of 
 the 9th, the authorities having still further strengthened their position by 
 drafting non-union men into the Service, there was a free fight in the Parcel 
 Post Depot at Mount Pleasant, Clerkenwell Green, and the unionists succeeded in 
 driving the non-unionists out of the building. Their success prevented an 
 immediate strike at the General Post Ofl&ce. The work of delivery was, 
 however, seriously delayed ; and, with the object of averting a crisis, the 
 authorities intimated to the men of the E.G. district that if they would 
 sign a declaration not to strike, they would undertake to dismiss the relief 
 men. The postmen wanted, however, to fix a date (July 21st), and the pro- 
 posal fell through. On the evening of the day a mass meeting was held 
 on Clerkenwell Green, and Mahon instructed his men, among whom were 
 delegates from the various divisions, that if on the morrow morning they 
 received messages that Mr. Raikes had consented to dispense with the 
 "blacklegs," they were to continue work, but they were to take out no 
 letters until they received this message. During July the Postmen's Union 
 had maide every effort to persuade the sorters' organization to act with them, 
 and it was stated that they were joining the Union in large numbers. But 
 on this night (July 10th) a largely-attended meeting of the Fawcett Associa- 
 tion was held in the General Post Office, at which a communication was 
 read from Mr. Raikes, stating that the petitions dealing with the grievances 
 of the sorters had been handed to the Treasury, and were being favourably 
 considered. This announcement was received with loud cheers, and though 
 there was a suspicious minority, the tone of the meeting made it certain 
 that the sorters would not join the postmen in a strike. This meeting 
 gieatly strengthened the hands of the authorities, and at 3.30 the succeeding 
 morning. Sir Arthur Blackwood, the Secretary to the Post Office, accom- 
 panied by a posse of police, went to Mount Pleasant Depot, and dismissed 
 about 100 of the men concerned in hustling the non-unionists out of the 
 building. The point of interest now was whether the postmen would make 
 tlie first delivery on the 10th. Events showed that the authorities had not 
 miscalculated the incapacity of the agitators to bring about a simultaneous 
 refusal to work in all the offices. There had been a disturbance at the 
 Central OflJce the previous day between the unionists and the non-unionists ; 
 but on the morning of the 10th the co-operation of the police with the De- 
 partmental chiefs was so effectual that a repetition of scenes within the 
 Central building waa impossible^ On this critical morning the leaders of tha
 
 12 Introduction. 
 
 agitation seemed to have lost their nerve, and so lamentable an exhibition 
 of organising incapacity was made that the men in the various districts did 
 not know whether they were expected to strike or not. No communication 
 was made to them, and the result was that the Union, considered as an 
 instrument for united action, was completely disorganised. The men, as a 
 whole, solved the diiBculty as to the indecision and the panic of the Union 
 Executive by taking out their letters as usual ; but at Holloway, Finsbury 
 Park, in the Eastern jand East Central and West Central districts many 
 men refused to take out the letters. The authorities followed up this revolt 
 by at once dismissing all men who had struck and were otherwise insubordi- 
 nate. In the afternoon, these dismissed men, headed by Mahon, marched to 
 the Post Office, with the object of bringing out the men, but the building 
 was guarded by the police, and their anticipations that several hundreds 
 would join them in the strike were destroyed. Similar efforts made at the 
 district offices to even then bring about a general cessation of work failed, 
 and by midnight, in spite of a meeting at Clerkenwell Green, in which the 
 certainty of success was insisted upon by the agitators, it was known that the 
 movement had utterly and hopelessly collapsed. Though there was con- 
 siderable sympathy with the abstract prmciple that the men had a right to 
 hold unrestricted public meetings, public opinion was dead against the move- 
 ment as soon as there was a prospect that inconvenience might result from 
 it. The places of the dismissed men were at once filled up. Only in the 
 East End of London, where the sympathy of the roughs was naturally on 
 the side of the insubordinate, was there any difficulty in the delivery of 
 letters. Here, to avoid molestation of postmen who remained at work, and 
 of " blacklegs " who were engaged, each postman was accompanied on his 
 round by police. By the 12th of July many of the men who had struck had 
 renounced the Union and the agitators at its head, and were appealing for 
 reinstatement. But the latter made one last effort on the 11th to induce 
 the East Central men to come out, by making a formal declaration of a 
 strike of all postmen, "to last until the right of public meeting and free 
 combination is recognised by the authorities." Had this declaration come 
 on the morning after the Clerkenwell Green meeting, and had it been simul- 
 taneously known at all the district offices, there can be little doubt that a 
 general strike would have taken place. But the tactical opportunity had 
 been missed, and the declaration came off after a decisive defeat. The men 
 had been cowed by the prompt dismissal of the insubordinate colleagues and 
 the adequate preparations to permanently fill their places ; and the result 
 was that, instead of the strike manifesto being obeyed, the men who had 
 already struck appealed for forgiveness at the hands of the authorities. 
 The various Trades' Unions in London, through the Trades' Councils, seemed 
 likely to make common cause with the postmen on the abstract question of 
 the right of meeting and recognition of the men's Union ; but the postmen 
 themselves had no courage left in them, and the disgust of the Trades' 
 Council and the incapacity of the Union Executive, which had so grossly 
 mismanaged the agitation, was so great that nothing was done. 
 
 In all, 425 men were dismissed the Service. Mr. Raikes claimed to have
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service History. 13 
 
 made a personal investigation into the circumstances of each case, with the 
 result that fifty men were reinstated, leaving 385 men finally , dismissed. A 
 committee was formed subsequently for the purpose of relieving the men 
 (the Union having no funds worth speaking about) and obtaining re-employ- 
 ment for them in the Post Ofiice ; but Mr. Raikes resisted all pressure for 
 the re-engagement of men who, he considered, had behaved in a manner de- 
 structive to discipline in the Service. A Postmen's Union is, at the time 
 of writing, nominally in existence, but soon after the disastrous collapse of 
 the agitation Mahon retired from it." 
 
 The Postmaster-General's annual report for 1890 contains the following 
 reference : — 
 
 " Much time and labour have been devoted during the past year to the 
 arrangement and organisation of the numerous branches into which the great 
 Department is divided. An extensive scheme for adjusting the duties of the 
 sorting clerks and telegraphists throughout the kingdom has been carried 
 into effect. Important changes were made affecting sorters in the Metropoli- 
 tan offices, and various other organisations were effected. 
 
 " I regret to state that while the representations of a large body of London 
 postmen were in process of examination, a number of misguided officers 
 abandoned their duty on the 9tli of July, 1890, and refused to obey orders. 
 
 " I was compelled at once to take stringent measures to restore discipline, 
 and found it my painful duty to dismiss from the public service in one morn- 
 ing about 450 men. 
 
 " I felt that after this occurrence it was impossible to proceed at that time 
 with the various questions affecting postmen which were engaging my atten- 
 tion, and I therefore had to defer until the autumn the appointment of a 
 Committee to examine the subject. I also decided to extend the inquiry into 
 postmen outside of London." 
 
 The Committee of Inquiry referred to was the 1890 Committee on Post- 
 men. It will be observed it was only appointed in the autumn, that is, after 
 the Union movement had culminated in the July crisis. This Committee 
 was a| purely Departmental one, and Mr. Herbert Joyce was the chairman. 
 Mr. Hill was a member, so also was Mr. Badcock. In addition to consider- 
 ing the case of the London postmen, it took up the case of the 52 towns 
 that had petitioned in April, May, and June, 1890. Representatives from 
 Edinburgh and Glasgow were allowed to give oral evidence before the Com- 
 mittee. The other 50 provincial towns appear to have been visited by Mr. 
 Lewin Hill, who seems to have held a sort of special roving commis- 
 sion. 
 
 Unlike the Tweedmouth Committee, which has been so fully reported in 
 the " Postman's Gazette," the Joyce Committee was conducted in private, 
 so that the postmen throughout the country were completely in the dark 
 as to the nature of the evidence. Although the Committee reported in favour 
 of even more concessions than have been granted, it is quite clear that it 
 approached its work already prejudiced against the postmen's claims. 
 
 In his examination before the Tweedmouth Committee, Mr. Lewin Hill
 
 14 Introduction. 
 
 made an admissioa which is both interesting and instructive. He said: — 
 'When the Committee on Indoor Staff, under Mr. Raikes, in 1890, con- 
 Bidered their proposals, which were adopted, the opinion was expressed by 
 the majority of the Committee that if these concessions were m.ade that 
 TTOuld end the agitation." 
 
 As the Committee on Indoor Staff did not consider the case of the postmen 
 at all, it is now quite evident that the Raikes' Revision of 1891 was not 
 given voluntarily by the Department as a spontaneous act of justice. It is 
 quite clear that if the postmen had meekly borne the bad conditions that 
 then existed there would have been no Raikes' Revision for them. 
 Although we did not expect the Department to own up so candidly as Mr. 
 . Hill did, we have all along suspected the sweating and beating-down 
 motives actuating the chief advisers of the Postmaster-General, for on the 
 14th MaJrch, 1890, in reply to a question by Mr. Fenwick, Mr. Raikes 
 stated : — " It is quite true that the initial wages of the second class of Lon- 
 don postmen have been advanced to 18s. a week, and at the same time the 
 Lords of Treasury did indicate their opinion that any further claim from the 
 postmen could not be entertained. Their Lordships regard the wages paid 
 to the first class, with the other contingent a-dvantages of good-conduct 
 stripes, uniform, sick pay, gratuitous medical attendance and pension as 
 affording adequate remuneration." However, the rapid growth of the 
 LTnion movement served to force the Department to look seriously at the 
 question. So much was this the case, that the claims which were scouted 
 in March were in the following July " in process of examination." 
 
 In the ordinary sense of the word, the Postmen's Union movement was a 
 complete failure. Still, beneficial results were obtained. Since the Union 
 movement loomed large, postmen have been more considerately treated. It 
 also suggested the idea of concerted action. This is how 52 towns petitioned 
 almost simultaneously in 1890. For although only a few of these 52 towns 
 were directly connected with the Union, they, nevertheless, owed the in- 
 spiration to the Union movement. It may here be proper to point out that 
 the line of policy approved of by some of the provincial branches of the Post- 
 men's Union differed somewhat from the line pursued in London. The Lon- 
 don men had discarded the petition method as being antiquated and effete. 
 Some of the "country" branches were not quite so distrustful of the official 
 channel. Naturally, the policy of the London men was largely influenced 
 by the views of the Executive of the Union, who were outsiders unaccus- 
 tomed to the ways of the Post Office. 
 
 By February, 1891, the postmen began to wonder when the Joyce Com- 
 mittee was going to report upon its labours. In March the monotony of 
 waiting was relieved by a lively debate m the House of Commons on the 
 occasion of Earl Compton's motion : — " That in the opinion of the House 
 it is desirable that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the ad- 
 ministration of the Post Office." As a jteroration to a vigorous defence of 
 hia own administration, Mr. Raikes appealed to the House " not to encourage 
 by any uncertainty in their decision that night any recrudescence of that un- 
 fortunate feeling of discontent and dissatisfaction which waa now at an almost
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service History. 15 
 
 vanishing point in the Service. The noble Lord was doubtless unaware of 
 it, but he was being put in motion by the expiring Committees of the old 
 agitation, who did not represent any general feeling in the Service. He 
 thought it had shown to the House that the Post Office, the Treasury, and 
 Her Majesty's Government have given the most careful consideration to all 
 grievances which had been brought before them, and had afforded most sub- 
 stantial, and, he believed, complete relief." 
 
 On Wednesday, 22nd March, 1891, the Glasgow postmen held an indigna- 
 tion meeting in the Post Office, at which the following resolution was unani- 
 mously carried : — " That this meeting resolves to testify its great astonish- 
 ment and regret at the long-contmued delay in receiving an answer to the 
 petition for redress of grievances presented in May, 1890, and that in conse- 
 quence of said delay, widespread dissatisfaction and discontent prevail 
 among the officers of the Department, and that even a feeling of dismay has 
 been the general result of the perusal of certain portions of the speech of 
 Her Majesty's Postmaster-G«nerail in the House of Commons' debate last 
 week. It is further resolved that our Vigilance Committee be empowered 
 and desired to draw up a memorial to this effect, addressed to the Post- 
 master-Greneral, and that copies of motion be sent to Earl Compton, Mr. 
 Lockwood, his seconder, and to the M.P.'s for Glasgow." 
 
 In reply to their memorial of remonstrance, the following reply was con- 
 veyed to the Glasgow Committee : — 
 
 " Mr. Hobson, — 
 
 " You will, by the Postmaster-General's dii'ection, be good 
 enough to inform the memorialists that they are right in supposing that the 
 remarks Mr. Raikes made had no intention in prejudicing the case of the 
 postmen, but that he cannot too severely reprehend their action in thus anim- 
 adverting upon what the head of the Department was pleased to say in the 
 House of Commons ; though in doing so they altogether mistake their position, 
 although on this occasion he is willing to overlook their conduct, believing, 
 as he does, that they erred through ignorance, but he desires that they may 
 be emphatically cautioned against the repetition of so grave an impropriety. 
 
 " 1st May, 1891." 
 
 Meanwhile the postmen's case was being kept to the front by Parliamentary 
 friends. Amongst the M.P.s who, from time to time, questioned Mr. Raikes, 
 the following names are readily recollected: — Sir Thomas Esmonde, Dublin; 
 Messrs. Ci'oss, Liverpool ; Schwann, Manchester ; and Provand, Glasgow. 
 
 On 8th Jmie, 1891, Mr. Cross, M.P., asked the Postmaster-General 
 whether he was able to give an answer to the petitions recently addressed 
 to him by the postmen of Liverpool and other places? 
 
 In reply, Mr. Raikes said:— "The memorials to which my hon. friend 
 refers emanated, I think, from the postmen employed at 52 offices, were 
 referred by me in October last to a strong Departmental Committee, who 
 have made them the subject of an extensive enquiry, which, owing to the 
 large number of witnesses to be examined, extended over six months. The 
 report of the Committee was submitted to me iil"A.pril last, and as soon as 
 I had been able to consider it with due care, I forwarded it to the Treasury
 
 16 Introduction. 
 
 en the 13th of May last, togetlier with my recommendations as to the course 
 to be taken. I hope as the matter is one of the greatest importance to a 
 very large number of deservmg officers, no long time will elapse before I am 
 favoured with their Lordships' reply. As soon as this reaches me I can 
 assure my hon. friend that I shall lose no time in giving effect to it." 
 
 In the House of Commons on July 17th, 1891, the Right Hon. H. C. 
 Raikes, Postmaster-General, said in reply to a question by Mr. Cross, M.P. 
 for West Derby Division of Liverpool. — "I am now able to give a. general 
 outline of the new arrangements which, with the sanction of the Treasury, 
 r am now prepared to make. In London the two classes of postmen, where- 
 yver two classes exist, will be amalgamated into one class, so that men, in- 
 stead of waiting for vacancies to occur in the higher class, will be able to 
 progress without interruption from the minimum to the maximum of their 
 scale. The scale, moreover, in the case of each of what are called the four 
 suburban divisions, will, at its maximum, be raised by 2s. a week. Thus, 
 more than 600 men who now rise on two classes to 30s. a week, will henca- 
 forth rise on a. single class to 32s., and more than 700 men, who now rise 
 on two classes to 28s. a week, will henceforth rise on a single class to 30s. 
 Similarly, 300 men whose maximum is now 24s. will rise to 26s. An in- 
 creased rate of pay per hour will also be given to auxiliary postmen, and 
 some of their number will be granted a week's leave in the course of the 
 year. In the country (provinces?), as in London, the division into two 
 classes, where two classes exist, will be done away with, and the scales will 
 at then- maximum be raised in no case by less than 2s. a week, and in some 
 cases by more. This applies to town postmen. The rural postmen — that 
 is, the postmen who ply between town and villages — have hitherto received 
 fixed wages. For the future they, like town postmen, will, with few excep- 
 tions, be paid on scale, and their wages will rise considerably above what 
 they have hitherto been. In the case of rural postmen, moreover, the 
 period of their annual leave of absence will be extended from one week to 
 a fortnight. Another alteration of great importance, applicable to all 
 country (provincial?) postmen alike, is that they will henceforth be paid 
 extra for all work done on Sunday, and the payment will be at the rate of 
 one hour and a quarter's pay for one hour's work. Thus, not only wUl they 
 for six days' work be paid higher than they have hitherto been for seven, 
 but, if employed full time on Sunday, they will receive pay for a further 
 additional day, and that at a somewhat higher rate than for ordinary days. 
 Yet one more alteration I may mention — an alteration which is applicable 
 to all postmen in London and the country alike, both town and rural. Their 
 uniform hitherto has not included boots, and boots will henceforth be sup- 
 plied, or rather an allowance in aid of boots. As regards good-conduct 
 stripes, the regulation of which, I am aware, has not given entire satis- 
 faction, I am not yet prepared to announce a decision ; but good-conduct 
 stripes apart, I cannot but think that the concessions already announced, 
 the cost of which will considerably exceed £100,000 a year, will appear to 
 the House as not unhand^B^e, and will be accepted with satisfaction by the 
 persons concerned." — " Hansard."
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service History. 17 
 
 On the occasion of a debate on Supply a fortnight later, Mr. Pickersgill, 
 M.P., said: — "The Right Hon. gentleman claims that he has made the post- 
 men a handsome concession. Now, I demur somewhat to the use of the 
 word ' concession ' in such a case, though I am not at all surprised that the 
 Postmaster-General makes use of it, because his views of the relation between 
 the emploj^er and the employed are rather the views which obtained in the 
 eighteenth century, than those which characterise the last years of the nine- 
 teenth century. But the announcement thus made is of extreme importance 
 from another point of view. It is a distinct admission that when trouble 
 occurred in the Post Office la^t year, the postmen had reasonable grounds 
 for , complaint. I do not wish to review the circumstances of the trouble 
 of last year, the serious breach of discipline — for strike it can scarcely be 
 called — it was a breach of discipline, followed by a lockout on the part of 
 the authorities. I never defended the conduct of the men, it was indefen- 
 sible ; but as I pointed out then, and now repeat it, the men were precipi- 
 tated into their misconduct owing to the unconstitutional conduct of the right 
 hon. gentleman in interfering with their right of combination to protect 
 their own interests. Some men were dismissed. A large number of these 
 have emigrated, and a considei'able number are without employment, or are 
 only casually employed. On their behalf, I appeal to the right hon. gentle- 
 man for their reinstat ment in the Service, a: all events when an opportun-ty 
 presents itself. I ask, also, that those who have been punished by degrada- 
 tion, or otherwise, should be reinstated in their original positions." 
 
 Amongst the decisions contained. in the Revision, and not alluded to by 
 Mr. Raikes in his statement to the House, the following are the principal : — 
 
 (1.) Overtime. 
 " It is, as you are aware, a rule of the Service that postmen are not paid 
 overtime. This is a very necessary rule, and a; general relaxation of it would 
 offer a premimum upon dawdling. At tlie same time, the Postmaster-General 
 recognises that there are certain exceptional cases, cases not resting on the 
 mere word of the person interested, but coming within the personal know- 
 ledge of his superior officer, in which it is only just that overtime payment 
 be allowed. When, for instance, a postmen is kept waiting for a train which 
 is late by as much as two or three hours ; or when he is detained by heavy 
 snowstorm ; or has an extra delivery to make, you are at liberty to authorise 
 his receiving overtime payment on being thoroughly satisfied that it is de- 
 served. Payment, when allowed, should in ail cases be according to the 
 wages of man who receives it — at rate and a quarter for each hour." 
 
 (2.) Definition of what Constitittes Whole-Time DuTt 
 
 FOR A RXTRAL PoSTMAN. 
 
 Surveyors were enjoined: — "You will not fail to see that a rural postman 
 before being placed on a scale must do a full day's duty : and this he cannot 
 be considered as doing unless he fulfils one of the following conditions: — 
 
 " (a.) That he walks as much as 15 miles a day. 
 
 " (b.) That he walks as much as 14 miles a day, and is absent from head- 
 quarters for not less than 8 hours.
 
 18 Introduction. 
 
 " (c.) That he walks as much as 12 miles, and is absent from headquarters 
 for not less than 10 hours." 
 
 (3.) The Case of the London Town Postmen. 
 The London "town" postmen did not wish to get a "rise" by the Raikes 
 Revision. Presumably this was a sort of penalty for having nurtured the 
 Postmen's Union in their midst. 
 
 (4.) Reductions of the Commencing Wages. 
 
 By the Raikes Revision the lot of the new entrants was made much harder. 
 Not only was the period of after-appointment probation extended from six 
 months to two years, but the initial wages of the scale were reduced. In 
 his statement to the House of Commons, Mr. Raikes carefully avoided men- 
 tioning this important fact; neither was it clearly stated in the inspired 
 press notice of the Raikes Revision which appeared in most of the news- 
 papers. This was a very sore point. In Glasgow, for example, young men 
 of 21 and 22 years of age, and witli three to four years' service as Auxiliary 
 Postmen felt it a hardship to be asked to take 17s. a week instead of the 
 old 18s. rate. It was not surprising therefore that when the Glasgow post- 
 men attended a meeting to consider the situation, the following resolution 
 was unanimously carried : — "That this meeting of postmen of Glasgow, after 
 considering the terms of the revised Scale of Pay, declares its dissatisfaction 
 with same, and maintains that the statement of the scheme, as reported in 
 the newspapers, was misleadin:, inasmuch as that it left an impression in 
 the mind of the public that postmen were to benefit to a greater extent than 
 is actually the case." 
 
 In contrasting the niggardly revision given to the postmen with the Raikes 
 Revision of 11th July, 1890, to the Sorting Clerks and Telegraphists it was 
 felt that there was room for discontent. The following motion was therefore 
 passed as placing on record the mind of the meeting on the matter : — "That 
 we assert the moral claims of postmen to share equally with all the other 
 employees of the Department in the advantages of the abimdant revenue 
 Avhich our combhied labour is instrumental in producing." 
 
 Following up in the same direction it was also agreed : — "That this meet- 
 ing considers that the time has now arrived when an organisation of postmen 
 of tljis country is indispensable to an extensive and permanent improvement 
 of our condition, and pledges itself to do all that is possible to establish such 
 an organisation." 
 
 From correspondence with other towns it was found that somewhat similar 
 resolutions liad been carried at some of them. In the experiment of again 
 trying to organize postmen, London led the way. At first the Londoners 
 intended that their proposed new society should be of a purely local character. 
 It was to be a sort of Vigilance Association to watch over the London post- 
 men's interests. The supporters of the new m.ovem.ent seemed to think that 
 the aspiration towards a society on a rational scale entertained by the late 
 Union to have been of too high-flown an order. But largely through the 
 advocacy of Mr. Rous&, postman in E.C.D.O. (now Overseer), it was decided 
 to make the new society a national affair. That officer had been a delegate
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service History. 1 9 
 
 to the Glasgow conference of the Northampton Society. There he met post- 
 men — delegates from other parts of the country, and naturally enough they 
 talked about the fiasco of the 9th of July, 1890. Although the Union had 
 signally failed, the consensus of opinion was decidedly in favour of forming 
 some sort of society to watch over postmen's interests, and be ready on 
 emergency to advise and direct united and concerted action. Thus through 
 having been present at the Northampton Society's Conference, Mr Rouse 
 was enabled to gaugi 'J;e feeling that was abroad favoui^able to another 
 attempt being made to organize postm.en on a national scale. Fortified 
 with this knowledge he strongly advised the London men to let their 
 "country" brethren have an opportunity to Join, which was done. Thus 
 in September, 1891, the Postmen's Federation was first established. At 
 the outset it was decided to keep free from the toils of the "nasty outside" 
 agitator so much dreaded by officialdom — a half-promise having been 
 given that if the postmen would keep by themselves there would be no 
 official interference. The Federation was therefore officered entirely 
 by hona-flde postmen. For the fii'st year a provisional Executive of 
 London postmen managed the affairs of the society. Tlie important 
 post of General Secretary was filled up by a postmen of the E.G. District 
 — Mr. Churchfielcl — who still holds that office at time of writing. At 
 an early sta.ge the need for journalistic connection became apparent. For a 
 time the difficulty was tided over through the courtesy of the editor of the 
 "Post" (the official orgai of the Fawcett Association) who allowed about a 
 page of each issue for the postmen. As a quid pro quo the " Post " enjoyed 
 an increased circulation through postmen buying it for the sake of the "Fed- 
 eration Notes." However, this arrangement was on the face of it a mere 
 make shift. Very soon the editor of the "Post" had other clamant calls 
 made on his space, so the postmen were crowded out. The Federation was 
 by this time a society having considerable connection in the provinces. A 
 young growing society without any adequate magazine to express its aspira- 
 tions is like an army without either bugle .or drum. The Postman's Gazette 
 was therefore commenced in May, 1892. The editorial duties were under- 
 taken by the General Secretary, Mr. Churchfield, who was assisted by 
 another E.G. postman, Mr. A. R. Wilkin. To start a postman's newspaper 
 with a postman editor was a bold, venturesome enterprise attended with 
 numerous uncertainties. Li the first place it was imcertain how the Depart- 
 ment! would jump, so to speak. For at that time rule No. 52 (in the metro- 
 politan postmen's rule-book) said : — "A postman is forbidden to write to 
 the press on official matters." It was also an uncertainty whether a postman's 
 paper could command a paying circulation. Then again, with reference to 
 news-items, the machinery for collecting suitable " news " was of an elemen- 
 tary character. Contributions written by busy men in their renmants of 
 spare time could not be expected to have that literary polish which a 
 trained journalist could bestow on his work. At first Branch Secretaries 
 were inclined to insert too much smoking concert reports, etc. But in spite 
 of these difficulties the "Gazette" made headway, and it has been a potent 
 iustrument in spreading a knowledge of the Postmen's Fsderatioa and itd
 
 20 
 
 Introduction. 
 
 The first annual Conference was held in the Old Friend's Hall, St. Martin's 
 Lane, London, W.C. Tliis Conference adopted a rallying platform, the main 
 planks of which consisted of the principal improvements which the postmen 
 desire to see effected in the Service. It did more. It welded the Federa- 
 tion! into a real living society — not one merely existing on paper. At the 
 time of the first Conference the membership was under 3,000. It is now 
 near 15,000.
 
 POST OFFICE ADMINISTRATION. 
 
 LONDONh 
 
 C. OHURCHFIELD, E.C.D.O., General Secretary. 
 
 Wages — Minimum — Sanitation — Recognition of the Federation. 
 
 Westminster, Feb. 3, 1896. 
 The Committee appointed by Mr. Arnold Morley, the late Postmaster- 
 General, to inquire into the grievances complained of by the employees 
 in the Postal Service, resumed its sittings at the House of Lords' Com- 
 mittee Rooms under the presidency of Lord Tweedmouth. The other 
 members present were Mr. Walpole, Sir F. Mowatt, Sir A. Godley, and 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith. Evidence as to the London Postmen's grievances was 
 first taken. 
 
 Mr. Charles Churchfield was examined by the Chairman as follows : — 
 Q. You are a postman? 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 Q. What is your term of service ? 
 A. Nineteen years last February. ^ 
 
 Q. Li what way did you enter the Service? 
 A. As an assistant letter-carrier. 
 Q. As an auxiliary? 
 A. No ; as assistant. 
 
 Q. How long were you before you became a postman? 
 A. One year and ten months. 
 
 Q. Is that included in your nineteen years of service? 
 
 A. I was promoted to the first class after one year and ten months' ser- 
 vice. 
 
 Q. And what rate of wages are you now receiving? 
 A. Thirty-four sldllings a week, and three shillings stripe money. 
 Q. You are also General Secretary to the Postmen's Federation, are you 
 not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And I suppose you have been largely responsible for the preparation of 
 the evidence which is to be laid before us on behalf of the Federation ? 
 A. Yes. I have assisted my colleagues in London in preparing it. 
 Q. May we take the evidence which is to be submitted by the twenty-two 
 witnesses who are named to us by your Association as fully representing 
 the case for the whole country? 
 A. I speak on behalf of London only. 
 
 Q. That is not my point. You are the General Secretary of the Postmen's 
 Federation, are you not? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And therefore you spea.k on behalf of that Association? 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Are we to consider that the 22 witnesses named by that Association 
 represent the whole case of the Federation? 
 A. Yes. my lord.
 
 22 C. Churchfield, E.C.D.O. 
 
 Q. Have you, may I ask, had any complaints from any parts of the 
 
 country as to any special district not being sufficiently represented? 
 
 A. Some few months ago we had complaints from Scotland ; the question 
 was brought up at the Annual Conference and fully threshed out, and the 
 Scotchmen were unanimous that the representation was satisfactory. 
 
 Q. I believe Mr. Maclaren will be able to state the case for Scotland, 
 will he not? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. And with regard to Ireland, have you had any representations from 
 there on the subject? 
 
 A= From Dublin we had a request that they might be attached to our 
 depatation, but we could not see our way to take them in, we having made 
 our arrangements before they made tlieir application to us. 
 
 Q. Then is the Irish case not represented by any of these witnesses? 
 
 A. I take it that we represent the postmen of the United Kingdom? 
 
 Q. Then you do say that in the opinion of the Association there is no ne- 
 cessity for any special representation of the Irish case by Irishmen? 
 
 A. I should say not, m.y lord. 
 
 Q. Is that the opinion of your brethren in Ireland? 
 
 A. It is the opinion in the majority of the towns — in Belfast and Cork, and 
 smaller towns. 
 
 Q. Is it not the case there is a strong feelipg in Dublin that they are not 
 adequately represented ? 
 
 A. No ; it is only the opinion of a part of the Dublin staff. 
 
 Q. What is the particular subject on which you yourself are going to 
 speak ? 
 
 A. On the nunimum wage for the London postmen. 
 
 Q. Have you prepared a statement which you wish to read to -the 
 Committee? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord : but before I read it I should like to put in two state- 
 ments on behalf of the Postmen's Society. 
 
 The Chairman : Very well, put them in. 
 
 The witness then handed in the following prepared statement, viz. : — 
 
 THE FEDERATION. 
 
 As- General Secretary, I have the honour to ask that the Postmen's 
 Federation, which has a membership of 12,000, and which is managed solely 
 by postmen, should be recognised as the official channel of communication 
 between the Department and postmen. Tlie Federation was established in 
 1891 on linos which, it is believed, met with the approval of the late Mr. 
 R-aikes. In the first year of the existence of the Federation it had a 
 membership of 2,000; in the second year, 5,000; the third year, 8,000; 
 and at the present time it has a total membership of 12.000. It has over 
 330 branches distributed throughout the United Kingdom. At each of tha 
 foiu- annual conferences convened by the Federation, resolutions have bten 
 unanimously passed asking for the official recognition of the society. It is 
 the feeling of postmen that grievances affecting their class, as a whole, 
 could be dealt with more effectively by an officially recognised body, havini^ 
 branches all over the United Kingdom, than by individual postmen, who 
 do not have the facilities or the opportunities for making an appeal 
 to the Departm.ent a unanimous one. Moreover, the Executive of the 
 Federation, feeling that the Department was anxious to meet them in every 
 reasonable way, would put forward tliose questions which, after eareftil 
 ex.'imination and inquiry, seemed ' to them to require adjustmient. It is 
 apparent that the a/lvantages of a direct channel of communication between 
 the Department and the mf'G are many and great, inasmuch as thete is no 
 fear of any disquieting rumours being circulated regarding various offi.ces. 
 as has been th« case in the pant, The Postmen's Federation has. ?ti
 
 Wages — Minimum — Eecognition of the Federation. 23 
 
 sense, been recognised by tlie Department as the mouthpiece of postmen, 
 for at the Newcastle Conference, in September, 1894, several delegates had • 
 been refused leave of absence to attend at Newcastle. On those assembled 
 at the Conference becoming aware of tliis fact, 1 was instructed to at once 
 telegraph to the Postmaster-General asking for leave to be granted them. 
 A reply was soon afterwards received from Mr. Walpole stating that, under 
 the circumstances, the postmen in question had been granted leave of 
 absence. I m.ay mention that the Executive of the Postmen's Federation 
 endeavoured to approach the late Postmaster-General (the Right Hon. A. 
 Morley), in regard to the grievances of postmen, but owing to some breach 
 of ofiicial etiquette, Mr. Morley Avould" not receive or recognise us as a 
 representative body, consequently, as no hearing could be obtained, pressure 
 was brought to bear in Parliament to obtain this Inquiry. Our petition, 
 signed by the whole of the Executive of the Postmen's Federation, em- 
 bodying the statements our witnesses are now placing before you, was 
 forwarded by registered post to the late Postmaster-General, after all official 
 methods of approaching him had been resorted to without success. In tie 
 first place, the petition was handed to the superintendent (Mr. Hitchcock), 
 who, after an interval of tlu-ee days, returned it with a notification that he 
 did not feel justified in forwarding it to the P.M.G. The petition was then 
 handed by us to Mr. Briggs (then acting for Mr. Saunderson, sub-controller). 
 Mr. Briggs would not accept it, and stated that he was fully acquainted 
 with the circumstances of the case, that the superintendent had already 
 submitted it to him, and that owing to official etiquette not having been 
 observed, he (Mr. Briggs) could not put it forward. Our deputation, how- 
 ever, urged that the petition should be put before Mr. Badcock, the 
 Controller. This again was refused, and, consequently, no other course 
 seemed open but to forward the petition direct to the Postmaster-Genei'ul 
 by registered post. On 10th May, 1894-, Mr. Badcock sends for me. and, 
 to my surprise, tells m.e that he had never seen our petition, and acquaints 
 me with the answer of the Postmaster-Cxeneral to the effect that our petition 
 was declined " owing to its infonnality, as though promoted by London 
 men, it is signed by postmen in other towns, and embraces matter with 
 which the London postmen have no concern." At the request of the 
 Department, all the an-angements as to witnesses and evidence for our case 
 have been conducted through the Postmen's Federation, which latter body 
 has collected a vast amount of evidence, and entire confidence is shown in 
 the Federation by the fact that the membership is still increasing, and is 
 likely to increase. In conclusion, I trust that this request will receive your 
 earnest consideration, and, I think, I cannot close this appeal with more 
 fitting words than those uttered by your lordship's colleague, the Right Hon. 
 Sir William Harcourt, who said in reference to combinations of workers : 
 " Combination is the duty of all workers, and Civil servants will no doubt 
 derive benefit from mutual agreement and co-operation in the same manner 
 as other workers have." 
 
 SANITATION. 
 
 The second statem-ent put in by the witness was on the subject of sanita^ 
 tion, and was as follows : — 
 
 In Submitting to your Committee for your kind consideration the ques- 
 tion of the unsatisfactory state of sanitary arrangements in the postmen's 
 offices in London, I should like to call your attention to the following 
 complaints : — 
 
 (1) The postmen's office at Mortlake, S.W., is built in the back garden 
 of the East Sheen Receiving House, and is composed of corrugat.ed iron 
 outside, and wood inside, the measurement inside being 16 feet 10 inches by 
 14 feet. The staff of postmen at this office is fifteen and upon the G.P. 
 duty there is an insufficient supply of seats by two. There are two gao
 
 24 C. CllUKCIlF/ELD, E.C.D.O. 
 
 burners for lighting purposes, and, these being in centre of office, each man 
 
 sits in his own light. It is stated that in the winter the office is intensely 
 cold, and the heat in summer almost unbearable. There is no kitchen pro- 
 vided, so that the men have not the least accommodation afforded them 
 for the purpose of drying their clothes. In the rainy season the wet fre- 
 ([uently comes through the glazed portion of the roof. Another want which 
 is greatly felt is the need of an official clock, as the watches of the men 
 freijuently differ from that of the officer in charge. To approach this office, 
 the men have to travel over a roughly-stoned roadway, which is frequently 
 covered "with vans, etc., and is the private property of the owner of a 
 forge adjacent, or to use their right of way, which is usually muddy, and 
 the latter part of which is only three feet ten inches wide. Within a few 
 yards of sorting office there are no fewer than nine w.c's. belonging to the 
 adjacent houses, which cause a very disagreeable smell, and which every 
 man from time to time has complained of. It is believed by the men 
 attached to this office that the medical officer (Dr. Macintosh), assistant to 
 the Barnes and Mortlake medical officer, has reported upon this subject 
 several times. I now call attention to the temporary office, which was 
 engaged for the Christmas pressure, 1894. This room had been shut up, 
 and upon the men entering it, at once noticed a very fusty smell, and that 
 the walls were streaming wet, which, in the opinion of the men, hastened 
 the death of a brother officer. He, doing an inside duty, had to spend a 
 large number of hours in this room, after which he fell upon the sick list 
 and died on the 14th February, 1895. During the early part of November, 
 1895, the men forwarded a petition to their Postmaster, asking that a more 
 healthy room should be engaged for the Christmas pressure ; and they 
 complain that after waiting about a month for a reply, their inspector (Mr. 
 Grigg) walked into the office and spoke most severely to first one man 
 and then another in turn, saying that the Department would not be dictated 
 to, and that there was a great deal of feeling in the matter. The same room 
 was again used for the past Cliristmas pressure, but was not in quite such 
 a bad condition, owing to the fact that the windows had been kept open 
 for some considerable time previous to their going in, but the damp upon 
 a part of the wail was still to be seen. 
 
 (2) Inadequate sanitary accommodation. — I should like to call your atten- 
 tion to the an'angements at Sydenham S.O. This office, with a staff of 50 
 men, has two w.c's. and two urinals. One w.c. only is available for the 
 men, the other being reserved exclusively for the overseers' use. This office, 
 which was formerly a ground floor of a warehouse, contains no kitchen or 
 second room of any kind for the use of the staff. Another office (Anerley, 
 S.E.) is placed in a worse predicament. The men there have no kitchen for 
 their use, and the officers have their meals while sitting at their desks and 
 when on duty. Until about twelve months ago the w.c. and lavatory were 
 attached to the office, but since alterations, the w.c. has been removed to a 
 stable-yard adjoining, and lavatory basins have been taken away altogether, 
 so that the men have no opportunity of washing unless they use a pail, 
 and then they ^find their own soap. 
 
 (3) Want of retiring-rooms, and, where they exist, the insufficient accom- 
 modation for the staff employed. — ^In addition to the offices above-named, 
 I should like to point out my own office (Maida Hill), to which I have been 
 attached since February, 1878. When first appointed to Maida Hill, the 
 office was held in the first floor of a receiving house, with no accommoda- 
 tion for the men but one w.c, which had to answer the purpose for the 
 staff of about 24 men, and eventually for a number of telegraph messengers 
 who afterwards came there. About 13 years ago, owing to the increase 
 of work, our jiresent office was taken ; tliis office is situated in a mews, 
 and at the present time has a staff of 57 men. It is held in what was 
 the first floor of a brass foundry j the lower jxirt is at present used for 
 cab-building purposes. It has a skylight in the roof which can be opened,
 
 Wages — Minimum — Recognition of the Federation. 25 
 
 and is used for the purpose of letting out the hot and foul air. There is 
 no kitchen for the use of the men, so those men who have their meals at 
 the office are obliged to sit in the S.O. while another duty is going on. 
 I am very glad to say that a new office has been erected for us, and the 
 men are most anxiously looking forward to the day when they will be 
 transferred, which it is hoped will be very soon. At several offices where 
 kitchens are supplied — namely, Netting Hill, West Brompton, and South 
 Kensington, they are underground, and generally in an unsatisfactory sani- 
 tary condition. At Notting Hill, although the kitchen itself is a good size, 
 it has sitting accommodation for only eight men, although the staff is 
 about 90 in number. It is underground and very dark, so that the gas 
 has to be used all day. The only means of getting daylight into it is through 
 one window, which opens on to a yard about three feet wide, and surrounded 
 by walls about 40 ft. high. Directly facing this window are the urinals, and 
 joining these are the w.c's., which cause a very bad smell to enter the 
 kitchen. 
 
 West Brompton.- — It is complained that tlie urinals are only separated 
 from the kitchen by a door, and as somebody is continually going in and 
 out, it causes a very obnoxious smell to enter, especially as one of the 
 urinals was without water a short time ago. It is stated that the kitchen is 
 much too small, and is filled with smoke almost daily. 
 
 SoTJTH Kensington. — The kitchen at this oflice is also underground, the 
 gas having to be kept alight the whole of the day. The ceiling is about 
 7 feet high, and the ventilation is also bad, as^when the windows are open 
 they are in a line with the back of a man's neck, and, rather than get a 
 stiff neck, the windows are more closed. The dust-bin, although not actually 
 in the kitchen is under the same roof, and with the smells from the w.c's. — • 
 which, it is stated, are often out of repairs — the place is a most unpleasant 
 one to be in, especially when the men are having their meals. 
 
 Before bringing my case to a close, I should like to call attention to 
 the Holloway S.O. This office, with a staff of 84 men, is supplied with 
 three w.c's. and urinals ; the state of the latter is very defective, so much 
 so, that with an extra flush or overflow, the water runs over the floor, 
 and finds its way through the ceiling of the S.O., tlie kitchen and urinals 
 in this case being above the office. Tlie coal-cellar, which is also used as a 
 lamp-room, was, after a heavy storm we experienced last year, found to be 
 covered with a quantity of sewage matter which had exuded through the 
 brick floor of the same, and was allowed to remain for the space of two 
 weeks, notwithstanding it had been reported several times ; and the smell 
 arising from the same was very obnoxious, and it is feared the same thing 
 will occur again upon the first heavy storm we may experience. 
 
 (Signed) G. King, 
 
 Maida Hill. 
 
 THE MINIMUM WAGE. 
 
 Mr. Churchfield, continuing his evidence, said: — ^I have the honour to 
 submit, on behalf of the postmen of the whole of London, the case for an 
 increase of the minimum wage. My colleague, Mr. T. G. Barnes, who 
 will follow me, will deal with the question of increase of annual increment, of 
 maximum wage, and of the abolition of the zone system. It will be my 
 object to show that the present minimum, wage is not in keeping with 
 the progress made by other branches of the Public Service, and as it is 
 generally expected that a postman should maintain a respectable position 
 in the world, it will not be difficult for me to prove conclusively that on the 
 present minimum it is hardly possible to live decently, and absolutely im- 
 possible to live comfortably. Other classes outside the Post Office receive a 
 higher minimum, and we consider that the Post Office, the largest revenue-
 
 26 C. Churcufield, E.C.D.O. 
 
 earning service of the country, should take a higher view of the treatment 
 of its hardest worked servants than it has done in recent years, and make 
 even the postman's position an appointment to be coveted. The following 
 are the reasons adduced for an increase of the minimum wage : — 
 
 (1) Tliat the duties are of an important and responsible character. 
 
 (2) That the work cannot be corapared to " unskilled labour," a large 
 amount of sorting being performed by postmen in addition to their ordinary 
 duties. 
 
 (3) That a vast responsibility is incurred in connection with the delivery 
 of registered letters. 
 
 (4) That the duties of a postman involve strain, exposure, and break of 
 rest. {Vide P.M.G's. Report, 1895. Pages 12 and 14). And 
 
 (5) That rents in London are excessively high, and continue to increase. 
 The Chairman: May I ask, Mr. Churchfield, where the most of you live? 
 A. We live in all parts of London. 
 
 Q. Can you give the average dlsfcince of your 'residences from the offices 
 in which you work? 
 
 A. I should say it ranges from 4 or 5 to 7 miles. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Seven miles from the office where the men have to attend? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume you are taking the case of the E.G. postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am speaking for the City men. As to the district men, I 
 should think that the majority live from 25 minutes to three-quarters of 
 an hour from their offices. 
 
 Q. Are those the men included in Zone 1? 
 
 A. Yes ; and in Zones 2 and 5. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that the postmen in Zone 2 live 25 minutes 
 away from their offices? Take South Kensington. Earl's Court, and West 
 Bromptou : would you say that the men at the offices there live 25 minutes 
 away? 
 
 A. Yes ; I should think they lived fully that distance from their offices. 
 
 Q. Then take the case of Netting Hill and Maida Hill : those offices are 
 in Zone 1. Do the men employed there live 25 minutes away from their 
 offices ? 
 
 A. I should say so, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Where do you yourself live? 
 
 A. I live at Manor Park. 
 
 Q. How long does it take you to get from vour own house to the Greneral 
 Post Office? 
 
 A. Travelling by train, I can reach the G.P.O. in three-quarters of an 
 hour. 
 
 RESPONSIBLE CHARACTER OF THE DUTIES. 
 
 Continuing, Witness said : As showing the importance of the duties, I 
 would mention that on joining the Service there is first to be read, and 
 carefully observed, the Postmen's Book of 60 Rules, which shows that the 
 duties are by no ma%ns few or simple. It cannot be denied that great trust 
 is at all times necessary to be reposed in postmen, inasmuch as letters and 
 articles of great value pass through their hands. While on this head, I 
 would refer to one of five causes mentioned by Adam Smith as accounting 
 for higher wages being paid in certain em.ployments — namely, " The small 
 or great trust which must be reposed in tiiose who exercise them." Re- 
 ferring to this cause, the late Right Hon. Henry Fawcett says, in his 
 " Manual of Political Economy " (pp. 136 and 137) : " With regard to the 
 fourth cause mentioned by Adam Smith, it may be remarked that, when a 
 gi-eat amount of trust is requisite to be reposed in an employee, his wages 
 are, of course, higher. An employee, when he has demonstrated that he 
 pos.sesses such qualities as will cause his employer to place confidence in
 
 Wages — Minimum — Recognition'of the Federation. 27 
 
 hiiu, can claim higher wages, and the employer who gives these higher wages 
 is abundantly recompensed." That this principle of paying a higher mini- 
 mum to postmen has been recognised hj the Department in the past, I will 
 prove by the production of a circular issued by the Circulation Depart- 
 Cient, dated March, 1855. This document, after referring to the then 
 classification of the new establishment, states that the minimum for the 
 4th class is 19s. And again, in March, 1865, a fujtlier circular issued by 
 the Circulation Department fixes the minimum wage at 20s. ; it will be seen, 
 therefore, that so far as the minimum is concerned, the postman's position 
 ias been one of retrogression. 
 
 It has been suggested that, if the m.inimum were raised to 24s., a diffi- 
 culty might arise with regard to telegraph messengers coming into the postal 
 service. The question would be asked — Should they, being mere lads, 
 receive 24s. per week on their entiy into the Postal Service? Would not 
 this high wage cause them to lose their heads, and to become improvident, 
 etc. This point has been considered by us, and our suggestion is, that the 
 present maximum of telegraph messengers should be raised to 15s. (as 
 was paid under Mr. Fawcett's scheme), and that they should be allowed to 
 remain on as telegraph, messengers until the attain the age of 19 ; this, it 
 is believed, they would readily do if they could look forward to a pros- 
 pective 24s. i^er week on entering the Postal Service. Arrangements could 
 also be made for the telegraph messengers to qualify for appointments on 
 a shorter probationary period than two years. I am desired by my col- 
 leagues to call attention to the fact that a large mimber of telegraph 
 boys are occasionally employed in the sub-offices to work the holidays and 
 illcess of established men, and although doing a full day's work, do not 
 receive more than 12s. per week. Even in 1858, the Department were 
 cognisant of the fact that some of the yoimg men t^ien in the service of the 
 Department were the sons of elder letter-carriers, and that they lived at 
 home with their parents ; and, as will be seen from the official notice above 
 referred to, the age of entry was but 17, and the minimum wage 19s. 
 This minimum of 19s., it must be understood, was given at a time when the 
 work of the Department was not of so heavy and important a character as 
 at the present time. I may mention that the late Postmaster-General 
 (Mr. Arnold Morley), in replying to a deputation from the Permanent 
 Committee of the organisation of the unemployed on 2nd Dec. , 1892, said : 
 " I am not going to use the m^arket rate of wages as an argument ; I 
 recognise it is not the standard by which a Government Department or 
 any employer of labour ought to be guided. The Post Office, I admit, 
 ought certainly to set an example to other employers, bearuag in mind, of 
 course, the duty it owes to the public and the considerations of administra- 
 tion for the Exchequer, by whose decisions it is bound. You are probably 
 aware that Parliament has practically settled the question of the rate of 
 wages so far as Government contracts are concerned. I liave already had 
 under my notice the case in which I shall certainly do all I can to act 
 up, not only to the letter of the law, but also to the spirit of the regulations 
 pa.ssed by the House of Coimnons." This extract from the ex-Postmaster- 
 General's speech had, I believe, reference to the contract for the mail-carts. 
 
 THE NATURE OF THE WORK. 
 
 Mr. Churchfield, dealing with this point, said : Postmen are generally 
 mformed that, in deciding as to the amount of their wages, dufe regard 
 must be had to the fact that their labour is "unskilled." This is an 
 iujustice to the postman, as it will be found on inquiry that, at the various 
 post offices, postmen are daily sorting the district work of London. No 
 offices in zones have any sorters, and the working duties must be necessarily 
 done by postmen, who, in fact, make up all despatches to the chief district 
 offices. Now, this sorting work can hardly be classed as " imskilled," and, 
 for this reason among others, it is asked that postmen should receive an
 
 28 C. Churchfield, C.D.O. 
 
 increase of the minimum wage. I would also mention that the heavy work 
 of sorting and delivering hundreds and thousands of circulars, which are 
 annually dealt with, is performed mainly by postmen, young and old, which 
 circulars are at times even kept back by the Department in order that the 
 bulk of the sorting may be done by postmen. Moreover, it cannot be said 
 that the postmen, whilst on sorting duty, is favoured or excused for any 
 mistakes he may make, for he stands on the same footing as sorters as 
 regards penalties for " mis-sorts." 
 
 REGISTERED LETTERS. 
 
 I will speak now as regards registered letters, and the method in which 
 they are handled by the ofBcials. I wish also to draw attention to the 
 injustice suffered by po.stmen ia the heavy responsibility thrust upon them 
 in connection with the delivery of the registered letters. I would point 
 out that the registered letters are received by the sorters in sealed bags, 
 and signed for by them. They arrange the slips for the postmen's deli- 
 veries, and hand the registered letters to the postmen. For this duty, 
 sorters in the City receive an allowance, whilst the postman, with from 50 
 to 100 registered letters, in addition to ordinary mail matter, goes into the 
 streets alone, and for performing his part of the duty — a very important one 
 — ^receives no allowance whatever. I may mention that it is the practice of 
 the Department in the E.G. District, where the registered letters are known 
 to contain enclosures of great value, to supply a gucird to walk with the 
 postman. On the 15th November last, one postman signed for two regis- 
 tered letters which had been insured by the senders for a sum of no less 
 than £80,000. To insure the safe delivery of these two letters, the De- 
 partment furnished two men to act as guards. It is no uncommon occur- 
 rence for postmen delivering certain walks through London to have some- 
 times 20 to 30 registered letters of the value of many thousands of pounds 
 each. I would mention the Hatton Garden robbery, where a postman, 
 engaged on his day delivery, was set upon by thieves, who, after adminis- 
 tering chloroform to him, decamped with registered letters containing large 
 sums. I mention these facts in the hope that they will receive consideration 
 ia determinuig \vhat increase of the minimum wage should be given. It 
 cannot be urged that only men of long service and good conduct are 
 selected for this work: the first man available, whether with two or 
 twenty years' service, is liable to be called upon to take out deliveries, 
 including the registei-ed letters, in the absence of the regular men through 
 illness or holidays. 
 
 DUTIES OF AN ARDUOUS CHARACTER. 
 
 This is another strong reason, I think, for better treatment as regards 
 rate of pay, and also prevents comparison with other employments. It 
 has been stated in the House of Commons by successive Postmasters- 
 General, that the whole of the Postal staff sliould. as far as possible, be in 
 attendance at the various post offices as early as 5 a.m., and that the con- 
 ditions of the Service prevent the duties being continuous to any extent. In 
 fact, it is stated by the Right Hon. A. Morley in his Report of 1895 (p. 12). 
 that, " The circumstances of employment imder the Department indeed 
 necessarily impose a severe strain on the staff undertaking the duty. The 
 public expect to receive their letters as early as possible in the morning, 
 and to post them as late as possible at night. . . . On botli sides of the 
 Service, therefore, there is every necessity for very early and very late 
 attendances, which are not usual in private emT)loyment." And again, in 
 same Report, page 14, it is stated — " . . . The Post Office population 
 is distributed une(|ually among different ages and between both sexes, ex- 
 cluding the very young and the very old. It consists of selected lives, 
 candidates being required to pass a medical examination before they are
 
 Wages — Minimum — Recognition of the Federation. 29 
 
 laJmitted to the Public Service. And the nature of the work varies from 
 duties of a light and pleasa.nt character to some which involve strain, ex- 
 posure, and break of rest." I maixitain that the heaviest duties are 
 performed by postmen. Yet, when they ask for an increase, they are told 
 their wage compares favourably with those given in piivate employment. 
 No conipaiiscn should, I think, be made, as it is pointed out in the Post- 
 mastei -General's Rt;port above that the conditions of work are different 
 from those which prevail in private employment. The postman at the 
 present time receives a lower minimum in proportion to the importance of 
 the duties performed by him, and the exacting physical conditions of tlie 
 Service, than is paid by odier public bodies, such as the London County 
 Cour-cil, and H.M. Otfice of Works. In fact, the Right Hon. Herbert 
 Gia/!stone (then First Commissioner of Works), in reply to a deputation 
 to him on the minimum wage to Park-keepers (Royal), said that he had re- 
 commended to the Treasury the raising of the minimum to 24s., and they 
 had agreed. Of course, a good many workmen received more, but he would 
 like to point out that the work was continuous. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are you not using the word " minimum " in two different 
 ■senses? The minimum wage for tlie park-keepers was a minimum for adults, 
 and not a minimum which was to increase. 
 
 A. I am dealing with a mluimum scale of increases. You will see that 
 'Mr. Gladstone qualifies the word "minimum" in tlie particular case I am 
 citing. 
 
 Jlr. Smith : I do not tliii'.k you see what I mean. I would suggest you 
 iare using it in a dual sen.se in this case. In the case you name it is a 
 imir.mium for all adult workmen. 
 
 A. It is a provision that none shall be paid less than 24s. weekly. 
 
 Sir F. jSIowatt: What is the average age of park-keepers? Is it not 
 jabout 30 years? 
 
 A. They rise to 28s. There are different classes of them. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : And they do not rise so high as you do? 
 
 A. Tliat is so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But do you know at what age they enter that particular 
 I service? 
 
 A. They are mo.itly taken from the army, and are consequently middle- 
 naged n'en. 
 
 Q. Do you know the average age at which men enter your own Service? 
 
 A. When the}'^ are transferred from the Telegraph Service tlie age would 
 ' range from 18 to 20 ; but when they come from the army they are admitted 
 at as high an age as 32. 
 
 Q. Then in your own Service a postman would receive, under your 
 ; proposal, a 24s. minimum at the age at which the park-keepers receive 24s.? 
 
 A. Yes ; that would be so ; but it would be after many years' service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know the hours worked by the park-keepers ? 
 
 A. Yes ; eight. 
 
 Q. Are you sure of that? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is eight hours a day. That is the Government system. 
 
 Mr. Smith: What is the limit of age for entrance as postmen? 
 
 A. I have said that a man wlio comes from the army can, if he has served 
 1 12 years with the colours, be ad_mitted up to the age of 32. 
 
 Q. Do a good many come into the Service after being in the army? 
 
 A. There has not been a very large proportion during the last 12 months. 
 But in the time of Sir .James Fergusson a good many did come in. 
 
 Q. Did they come in at a minimum of 18s. ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Is it not the case that since Sir James Fergusson's tiino 
 the rule has been altered so as to give preference to telegraph messengers? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Does the 18s. minimum apply to all these men?
 
 30 C. Churchfield. E.C.D.O. 
 
 A. Certainly, except in one or two instances where auxiliary postmen 
 yere appointed to the staff at a minimum wage of 24s. 
 
 Mr. VValpole : That would be after many years' auxiliary service, would 
 it not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smith: Did you enter as a telegraph messenger? 
 
 A. No ; I came from the outside public. 
 
 Mr. Waipole : "\A'liat was the age of your entry? 
 
 A. 18 years. There is on? other point I should like to put forward 
 refeiiing tu the severe character of pustmen's duties. The following state- 
 ment, made by Sir \V. B. Richardson, t.iken from '" Longman's Magazine," 
 shows that the work is of no ordmary character: — 
 
 '■ There are soma callings which, on account of their monotony and 
 steady wear and tear from constant work, require regular limitation of 
 time. Th.^ postman is an excellent example of th.is class of worker.? in- 
 cluded under this head. Ti .• work of a postman is one continuous busy- 
 gn-round ; he is always on his feet during the whole of his working hours. 
 Tlie result vi that thi pcstman weais out fast. The late Me.'ical OfScer to 
 ^he (Jeiieral Post l)rhce. Dr. Waller Lewis, was fully alive to the fact. He 
 referi'O'i to it in his reports, and he spoke several times to me about it. 
 There we/e some men, he told ma. who sustained the tedious labour fairly ; 
 but none bore it well, and the weaker ones badly. The effect w.as generally 
 to produce premature old age; in other words, shortening the life of the 
 worker." 
 
 The above statement, jnade on tlie authority of one so well-known, merits 
 earnest coii si deration, and tlie taxpayers of the country will surely rot 
 grudge the increase asked for by the postmen. On the statement, too, of 
 I>r. Wilson, the chief Medical Officer of the Department, the Postal Service, 
 with its split duties, is not conducive to good health. In fact, he states — 
 "The duties are arduous and trying, even to the strongest." This in itself 
 is sufTicient reason for the Dejiartment paying a good "living wage." 
 
 EXCESSIVE RENTS IN LONDON. 
 
 Another point I wish considered in dealing with the questi-^ti of the 
 minimum is the very heavy rents that have to be paid by those residini,' 
 in London. In a pamphlet, published by IMr. Stanley Boulter, entitled 
 "Free Homes for the People," reference is therein made to the Report of 
 the Royal Commission on the Housing of the Working Classes, as follows: — 
 
 " The Commissioners found that the rtnts in the congested districts of 
 London were gradually getting higher, and wages were not rising. At 
 Prospect Teirace, in South St. Pancras, 4s. a week was paid for one 
 room 10 ft. by 7 ft. : the same was the case in Derry iStreet. In Wood 
 S rect 6.S. was paid for a single room, and if cheaper omrters were needed. 
 an uiii^ergiound kitchen must be sought, which commanded a rent in thi« 
 neighbourhood, of 2s. 6d. a week. At S'^eplien Street, Tottenham Court 
 Road, 5s. a we«k was paid for a single room in great decay. In Chapel 
 Row and Wilmington Place, Clerkenwell. 3s. 9d.. 4s. 6d., and 5s. were the 
 rents for single rooms. In Spitalfields the average rent for one room was 
 from 4s. 6d. to 6s. a week. These instances might be multiplied. The 
 Con.missioners stated that the liiLjhness of rent in proportion to earnings was 
 findcnibtexUy a potent and principal cause of the condition in which the poor 
 are housed. An inquiry extending over nearly a thousand dwellings, taken 
 at random in different poor parts of the Metropolis, showed thit 46 per cent. 
 of the poor population pay from one-fourth to one-half of their income in 
 rent.'' 
 
 This statement, ba.sed on the most reliable evidence obtainable, is one 
 we feel n.erits your serious consirleration in determining and fixing the 
 future minimum wage of postal officials,
 
 Waofes — Minimum — Recognition of the Federation. 31 
 
 In addition to the above point, regard must be had to the travelling 
 exi)enses incurred by postmen owing to the numerous attendances that must 
 be made to perfonu the daily duties. In conclusion, I would just state 
 the number of men who will l>enetit by this increase, if granted. The 
 P.M.G. stated in the House of Commons in 1893 that there were then 
 4,937 postmen who received 24s. per week, or less, and those were adults 
 and on the staff. It is estimated that about 60 per cent, of the established 
 classes would benefit by an increase of the minimum, and we earnestly 
 hope that your recommendation will be a favourable and a just one. I 
 thank you for your courteous attention. 
 
 The Chairman : I understand what you have come to ask for is an increase 
 iif the mmimum ; you do not say anything about the maximum ? 
 
 A. My colleague will deal with that ; as I have already pointed out, he 
 will take the case of the annual increment and the maximum wage. 
 
 The Chairman : What are more especially the grounds on which you ask 
 for an increase of the minimum? 
 
 A. We ask it for the simple reason that 18s. a week is such a small sum 
 for a man to start upon. I should impress upon the Committee the fact 
 that a young man, having entered the Service, takes up the responsibility 
 of manhoo'l at once. Though he may be living at home, he feels the res- 
 ponsibility that is thrust upon him of earning his own living. 
 
 Q. Take the case of a lad of 18. Is not 18s. a week as much as he 
 would get in any other employment to which the class from which postmen 
 ar3 usually drawn are accustomed? 
 
 A. But we are asking that the age should be raised at which telegraph 
 messengers should be transferred. 
 
 Q. Postmen are not solely drawn from telegraph boys? 
 
 A. And that is the reason we are asking for an increased minimum. We 
 have men entering the Service at the age of 25 and 30 — ^men who have 
 pa.ssed through the army. 
 
 Q. Surely no man would come in from the army at the age of 25. You 
 told us that he must have 12 years' service with the colours before he 
 could come in? 
 
 A. He must have 12 years' service with the colours if he is to come in 
 at the age of 32 ; that is a privilege specially extended to those men. 
 
 Q. Then after one term of service with the colours a man might come in 
 at the age of 25? Do you say that a man coming in at that age starts 
 equally with the others at 18s. ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And whether he be 25, 26. or 32, he still gets 18s.? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Tlien I understand your suggestion is that the age of telegraph boys 
 who are transferred should be raised to 20? 
 
 A. Yes, or 19 if promotion is thrown open to them. Supposing they 
 come in at 19 they would be 20 or 21 before they got on to the establish- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. At present it is open to them at 18, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; but as I say, we suggest that the age should be raise^d. 
 
 Q. What is the minimum you propose? 
 
 A. 24s. a week. 
 
 Q. Would you propose that a telegraph boy coming in at the age of 19 
 should receive 24s. at once? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You propose to raise him from 15s. at one jump to 24s. ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you propose that the minimum age for postmen should be 
 raised to 19, or simply that the maximum age of telegraph boys should be 
 raised to 197
 
 C. CnURCHFlELD, E.C.D.O. 
 
 A. The age at whicli a postman may enter the Service has been fixed by 
 the Department at 32. 
 
 Q. But that is only in the case of men who have served 12 years with 
 the colours. Is it not the fact that the minimum age at present is 18, and 
 that you no"w propose to raise it to 19? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: And you say that no one should be admitted before 
 they are 19? " 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Mr. Walpolo : In practice that is what is occurring in the Department. 
 We keep the telegraph boys on till they are 19, and then they become 
 postmen, so that really we are doing what you ask. 
 
 The Chairman : I do not want to put it to you in an unfair way, but, 
 taking an average young fellow of the class from which postmen are drawn, 
 does not 18s. represent a much larger wage than usually is paid to one of 
 that age? 
 
 A. I take it it is not so, my lord. I think it is only the prospect of 
 the future that keeps these young fellows in the Service. I believe they 
 would get the same wage elsewhere. 
 
 Q. But they M"ould not get more on the average, would they? 
 
 A. I take it that they would, sir. Look at a yoimg fellow who has 
 learned a trade. 
 
 The Chairman : Yes, by all means take sucli a case as that. A young 
 fellow is apprenticed to a trade at the age of 18. Surely he would not be 
 earning so much money? 
 
 A. No ; but after having served five or seven years, as the case may be, 
 he would rise to his maximum at once. 
 
 Q. But the maximum pay even then would not be more than the mini- 
 mum of 24s., would it? 
 
 A. On the contrary, I take it that a good workman receives on an 
 average from 38s. to 40s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Smith : But not at the age of 18 ? At that age he certainly would 
 not be getting more than we give, and surely that would be a big jump? 
 
 A. There is another thing ought to be borne in mind, and that is that 
 there is no permanency in the Post Office employment for the first two 
 years a man is in the Service. 
 
 The Chairman : What do you mean by that ? 
 
 A. A man has to do two years' probation, and, if he fails, he is not 
 put on the establishment. By tliat time he will have reached the age 
 of 21, and will have to look for employment elsewhere. 
 
 Q. Do many men fail on their probation? 
 
 A. Not a great many. 
 
 Q. Is it not a rare thing to fail? 
 
 A. Well, I take it that the Department have fully analysed a boy's life 
 and strength during the time he is in the Telegrajjli Service. Then if he is 
 a man who is brought in from the army, he is a man who has also been well 
 tested. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Therefore the service during the first two years is 
 practically if not theoretically permanent? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Substantially, the grievance you represent is that adults of 
 21 and upwards are getting less than 24s. a week? 
 
 A. Yes ; including the army men I have referred to. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know how many army men have been admitted 
 into the London Postal Service durmg the last 12 months? 
 
 A. I should say about 300. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Including the auxiliary classes? 
 
 A. Yea. 
 
 Q. In the London Postal Service?
 
 "Wages — Minimum — Recognition of the Federation. 33 
 
 A. Yes. Let me add that the men do not enter at the age of X8 if they 
 enter through the auxiliary service ; they are taken on at any age. 
 Mr. Smith : And they all come in at the minimum wage of 18s. ? 
 A. Yes ; the wage is 18s. a week. 
 
 Q. And if they come from the auxiliary to the permanent staff they still 
 get 18s. ? 
 
 A. Yes ; except in such cases as I have already alluded to. 
 
 Q. You liave mentioned in the course of your evidence the case of tele- 
 graph messengers taking the place of established men during the holiday.s 
 and in absence through ill-health. Are we to understand you put that 
 forward as a grievance? 
 
 A. It is not regarded altogether as a grievance, but we maintain that 
 there should be a certain staff attached to tlie offices to take up the vacancies 
 as they occur ; for instance, in the various zones if a man is absent for any 
 cause, and fails to come on duty they simply get a telegraph, boy from tlie 
 depot, and get him to do the man's work till he returns. They have no 
 reserve staff. At Christmas time telegraph boys are drafted into the 
 different districts, and do men's work for four or five days, and then they 
 are sent back to their various stations. 
 
 Q. But the Post Office work, being in its nature fluctuating, can you 
 avoid anything of that kind? 
 
 A. It could be avoided by young fellows qualifying during the period set 
 apart for probation. They could then be taken on the staff. 
 
 The Cluiirman : They are learning what their future work will be during 
 that time, so it is good for them as well as for the Department? 
 
 A. Yes ; but some of the auxiliaries serve eight or nine years before they 
 get on the staff", and even then they have to go through two years' 
 probation. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: If he does the work of a probationer for two years 
 surely it cannot do him much harm. If he fails it is a proof that the pro- 
 bation was necessary. But if he does not fail how does it really affect him? 
 
 A. It affects him in this way — If a man has done seven years' service 
 before he gets on the establishment, and then has two years to do as a 
 probationer, lie may, m the course of that twO' years, contract some com- 
 plaint which would disqualify him from further service, and the Department 
 would then have the i:)rivilege of dispensing with his services. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume, Mr. Churchfield, that if unfortunately a man, 
 after he had done his two years' probation, contracted a complaint that 
 would disqualify him from further duty, he would have to retire, and he 
 would not be entitled to any pension. Therefore he would be in exactly 
 the same position, would he not? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. Then where would the difference come in? 
 
 A. We are asking that these men should go direct to the staff. We 
 maintain that they have qualified during their auxiliary service. 
 
 The Chairman : I do not think you grasp the point. You do not make 
 out anv strong case of grievance on the part of the probationers. You do 
 not say that many of them are rejected, or that tliey are rejected on 
 improper grounds? 
 
 A. One of my colleagues will deal witli that point. 
 
 Q. You are not prepared to go into it? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There is one question I want to ask you. I think you 
 are under a misapprehension. You said something about 300 army men 
 coming into the London Postal Service last year. I think you would 
 probably like to modify that statement. I am advised that it is not a fact. 
 
 A. I am speaking of the Service generally, including auxiliaries. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I assure you you are wrong. I am told that there were 
 
 B
 
 34 C, Churchfield, E.C.D.O. 
 
 300 in 1893 and 1894 combined, and that when Sir James Fergusson's rule 
 was in full force. As a fact, very few came in in 1895. 
 
 A. In that case, sir, I shall be very glad to modify my statement. 
 
 Q. You are including auxiliaries as well? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : One of your friends is going to speak on the zone ques- 
 tion, is he not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Smith: In fixing on the pai'ticiilar sum of ,24s., have you done so 
 because other public bodies pay that sum? 
 
 A. Yes. Such bodies as the London (bounty Council pay it. It is the 
 standard rate of wage in London. 
 
 The Chairman: Do they give it to people so young as boys of 18? 
 
 A. I take it they make a rule not to employ men under a certain age. 
 
 Mr. Smith : It is the standard rate, but you would not like to accept 
 it as your fixed wage, would you? 
 
 A. Not as a fixture. 
 
 Q. Is the analogy not rather a dangerous one for that reason? 
 
 Witness : I take it that the County Council have power to raise tlie 
 maximum. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mention that in your earlier years of service the 
 minimum wage of postmen was higher than it now i.s? 
 
 A. Not in my time, but before my service. 
 
 Q. Was there not a class of assistant-postmen at that time? 
 
 A. There was a fourth class, but there were no assistant-postmen. 
 
 The Chau-man : Wa.s there no classification among the town postmen ai oJl^ 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Is there anything else you wish to say? 
 
 The witness then withdrew.
 
 T. G. BARNES, S.E.D.O. 
 
 Wages — Anntt.u^ Increment — Zone Stste-M — Maximum. 
 
 Westminster, February 3, 1896. 
 
 The next witness was Mr. T. G. Barnes, of the S.E. District Office. 
 
 The Chairman : What is your service ? 
 
 Witness : I entered the Service as an auxiliary in the month of June, 
 1879. 
 
 Q. And then? 
 
 A. I was an auxiliary for nearly 12 years, and came on the establishment 
 at the end of 1890. 
 
 Q. How old were you when you entered the Service? 
 
 A. Between 18 and 19. I Vas 30 by the tim.e I got on to the estab- 
 lishment. 
 
 y. What pay did you get as an auxiliary? 
 
 A. I was getting 12s. as an f>-.ixiliary for a few hours' duty. 
 
 Q. Then you only devoted a short tifne to the Service? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you employed the remainder of your time in ot'ier ways? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. That was until 1890. You are getting 23s. a week now, are you not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you got any stripes? 
 
 A. No, my lord, not yet. 
 
 Q. You want more especially to talk about the annual increment, the 
 abolition of the zone system, and the maximum wage? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Well, tell us what you have to say. 
 
 Witness : In bringing before you the question of the inadequacy of the 
 annual increment for postmen throughout the whole of London, we feel 
 convinced, that, as this question has never been seriously considered by 
 the Department upon our several petitions, this opportunity, long desired 
 by the men concerned, will have the effect of producing, through an im- 
 partial tribunal such as this Committee, the recognition of our claim to 
 the same treatment as other branches of the Postal Service. The claim that 
 the annual increment of Is. is inadequate cannot, in our opinion, be con- 
 sidered an unreasonable one, seeing tliat it has not been increased one 
 halfpenny during the past 30 years, though, at the same time, great im- 
 provement in this respect has taken place m other classes. In March, 1865, 
 a Circular Memorandum, issued by command of the then P.M.G., laid 
 down the status and pay of the London staff. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What is the date of the memorandum ?
 
 36 T. G. Barnes, S.E.D.O. 
 
 A. 22nd March, 1865. It gave the following information: — 
 
 CIRCULAR MEMORANDUM. 
 
 Upon the recommendation of the Postmaster-General, the Lords of the 
 Treasury have now sanctioned as a permanent arrangement the following 
 wages for the Minor Establishment of the Post Office : — 
 
 week. 
 
 180 
 
 Sorters with wages 
 
 rising 
 
 by 
 
 1/- 
 
 a 
 
 week from 
 
 40/- 
 
 to 
 
 50/- 
 
 400 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 !) 
 
 
 
 
 25/- 
 
 to 
 
 38/- 
 
 100 
 
 Stampers ,, 
 
 
 
 )) 
 
 
 
 
 28/- 
 
 to 
 
 35/- 
 
 200 
 
 do 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 21'- 
 
 to 
 
 37/- 
 
 330 Letter Carriers „ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 26/- 
 
 to 
 
 30/- 
 
 670 
 
 do. 
 
 
 
 )) 
 
 
 
 
 20/- 
 
 to 
 
 25/- 
 
 100 
 
 Supplementary Letter Car 
 
 riers 
 
 wi 
 
 th 
 
 wages 
 
 of : 
 
 - - 
 
 - 
 
 18/- 
 
 In communicating this decision to the men it is necessary to remind them 
 that, though their wages alone, looking to the general rate of wages, 
 might be considered to remunerate them sufficiently, the benefit of their 
 places is by no means confined to their bare wages, and that this is 
 especially so in the case of the letter-carriers. 
 
 To all, pensions are granted on their retirement from age or sickness. 
 All have a fair chance of rising to the several classes above them, the 
 entire establishment beuig recruited from the supplementary class. All 
 have a fortnight's holiday every year on full pay. All have medical advice 
 and medicine gratis, and, when the medical officer reports it to be necessary 
 that they should absent themselves from duty, they still receive two-thirds 
 of their wages, and all have assistance in the insurance of their lives to 
 the extent of one-fiftli, of the premium. Beyond this the letter-carriers are 
 supplied with uniform clothing, the money value of which is equal to at 
 least Is. 6d. a week, and tTiey receive from the public in gratuities at 
 Christmas a sum which, if divided equally and spread over the whole year, 
 would produce on an average 5s. a week to each man. 
 
 The places, thei'efoi-e, of the regular letter-carriers — 1000 in numljer — • 
 are worth upon an average from 26s. 6il. to 36s. 6d. a week, apart from the 
 other advantages. 
 
 In comparing, too, these wages of tlie Minor Establishment with the 
 wages of artisans, it must be borne in mind that they go on continuously 
 throughout the whole year, and that the work in the Post Office is not 
 liable to fluctuations which necessitate frequent change of abode. 
 
 By command of the Postmaster-General, 
 
 W. BoKENHAM, Controller. 
 
 Circulation Department, G.P.O., Marcli 22, 1865. 
 
 Witness, continuing his evidence : The Controller distinctly lays it down 
 that all have a chance of rising, as the entire establishment is recruited from 
 the supnlenientary class. It will be seen by this that letter-carriers at that 
 time had the opportunity of rising from 26.s. to 50s. i>er week, without, I 
 presume, undergoing any further examination than that required on their 
 entry into the Service. 
 
 The Chairman: Surely the figure sliould be 30s., and not 50s.? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Waljxjle : You mean that tlie letter-carriers might ultimately rise 
 to first-class sorters? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. I presume tliat in the one sense they have got that prospect now? 
 
 A. Just so ; but the prospect of a man rising to 50s. a week is not very 
 bright. He is more likely to remain a postman.
 
 "Wages — Annual Increment — Zone System — Maximum. 37 
 
 Q. And in those d<ays it was very iinusiial for a postman to become a first- 
 class sorter? 
 
 A. In those days the Service was developing very rapidly, and it was 
 necessary to increase the staff more rapidly than at the present time. 
 Therefore the men had a greater chance of rising. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you know if, as a matter of fact, they did rise in that 
 way ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I cannot say I do knoAV that. But I am aware that men 
 who came in at that time t>o supplement the letter-carriers are now holding 
 positions as inspectors and first-class overseers. In my own case, even if 
 I came in as a sorter at the present time, I should never reach that, nor 
 do I think half the men in London would do so. But that is a question of 
 promotion, with which Mr. Harris will deal. 
 
 Q. The figures you have just given us are not the limits of the scale for 
 postmen, but they are the limits whicli, in your opinion 
 
 Tlie Chairman : They are the limits for the whole Minor Establishment 
 of the Post Office, are thej' not? 
 
 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, there are a large number of sorters in the 
 E.C. District at the present time who came in as postmen. I am informed 
 that is so, but I cannot speak to it from personal knowledge. It was clearly 
 understood that the contingent advantages, such, as imiforra, sick and annual 
 leave, pension and Christmas boxes, were even at this time of day taken 
 into account. We contend that the wages of postmen should be considered 
 on all fours with that of the sorting class, with whom, working side by 
 side, doing exactly the same work, we yet present the extraordinary spec- 
 tacle not furnished m any otlier trade or profession in this country — of one 
 man receiving double the yearly mcrement of the other. This state of 
 things cannot be thought, by any stretch of imagination, to conduce to 
 that feeling of contentment amongst tlie large class I represent, which is 
 essential to the well-being both of the Department and of the public. 
 Whilst our petitions have time after time been ignored, we have seen other 
 classes not only receiving an increase on their maximum, but 'having their 
 increments raised, while at the same time that of the postmen has remained 
 stationar}^ Why, I cannot find out, but the fact has been gradually borne 
 on us that postmen are considered the pariahs of the Postal Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: The what? 
 
 A. The pariahs of the Postal Service. (Laughter.) I mean by that that 
 the revisions of 1881 and 1891 did not l)eneht the postmen to tlie same 
 extent as they did other classes. Why, we have not been able to find out, 
 except that they are a larger class, and if their demands were conceded it 
 would absorb more public money than Avould be required for the other 
 classes. I will now proceed with the reasons why the increment should be 
 raised to 2s. jjer week per year. They are: — 1st, The similaritj'^ of the 
 work performed Ijy postmen and sorters ; 2nd, split duties ; and 3rd, the 
 exceptionally long period now in vogue before reaching the maximum. With 
 regard to the first point, I will take leave to mention the famous statement 
 of the late Mr. Fawcett, on the intelligible principle of jjaying for work 
 solely according to its quality, and we assert the work of a postman is 
 more arduous and equally responsible as that of a sorter. This should be 
 fciken into account when adjusting the scale of wages ; and, further, that 
 had the postmen received the same consideration as other classes under 
 the revisions of 1881 and 1891, thej^ would now be in receipt of what they 
 now claim. The work of a postman and sorter is so similar that it is 
 difficult for me here to state where the difference comes in, but it will be 
 sufficient for any purpose to state that both classes have to pass an examina- 
 tion which consists as a rule of what is known as primary sorting, which 
 necessitates an intimate knowledge of the whole of the British Isles. This 
 in itself shows that postmen are as equally capable as sorters, seeing that 
 their appointment is not only deferred, but the annual increment as well, 

 
 38 T. G. Barnes, S.E.D.O. 
 
 until tliey can proTe lihemselves efficient. So far, the treatment is equal, 
 but. in the event of both passing, the sorter will, after the first two years, 
 receive an uicrement of 2s., and the postman will receive only Is. Besides 
 sorting, postmen are expected and are called upon to open and despatch 
 bags. They have, too, other duties, which in some, and principally in the 
 head offices, are performed by sorters. In addition to these must be added 
 the responsibility of deliveries, which includes letters, parcels, charges on 
 unpaid letters and registered letters, whicli we contend is equal in. impor- 
 tance to the Service and to the public with any duty performed by a sorter. 
 I think, without any further showing, it will be seen that the duties, as 
 far as the inside work is concerned, are analogous, whilst the postman 
 has in addition to his responsibilities by the deliveries and consequent 
 dealings with the public which Ims tended to make the Service so popular 
 in the past, and which will have the effect of still further doing so in the 
 future. With regard to split duties, much has been given in evidence on 
 this point, and, without a doubt, the system stands condemned, but post 
 men have been, and are, at the present time, working split duties whicii 
 have the effect of spreading the eight hours' work over 12, 14, and 16 hours 
 per day. This entails upon us the going to and from our homes between 
 each spell of work, and presses hardly upon a class of men, who, owing 
 to the smallness of theii* wages, are compelled to reside at some distance 
 from the office ; and we submit th;it not only the divided attendances but 
 the expenses of travelling are a sound reason for an increased increment. 
 
 The Chairman: What are your travelling expenses on the average? 
 
 A. My travelling expenses are nil. I finish practically at my own door. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Where do you live ? 
 
 A. In the S.E. District. The bulk of the men there live a considerable 
 distance away from the office. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : It is not a question of the distance from the office. It 
 is rather one as to the distance from where the round ceases that determines 
 how far the men have to travel. 
 
 A. Many men — in fact, a majority of them — endeavour as far as possible 
 to get on walks which finish as neartlieir homes as possible. But unless 
 men pay a heavy rent they cannot possibly live near the office. 
 
 Q. You have to start from the office? 
 
 A. Just so, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have to go from your homes to the office? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you try so to manage it as to end vour circuit near where vou 
 live? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but the bulk of the men are net able to do that. Take 
 the district offices. The men have to live in what are termed suburban dis- 
 tricts, and that, of course, entails their travelling half or three-quarters of 
 a mile before beginning each delivery. 
 
 The Chairman: And what should that represent in money? 
 
 A. I find that on the average with the men in mj^ own office they spend 
 2s. a week on travelling. 
 
 Q. Roughly, £5 a year? 
 
 A. That is the men who are doing three deliveries a day. 
 
 Q. On 'bus, tram, or train fares? 
 
 A. Yes ; some travel by 'bus, some by tram, and some by train. It 
 includes all sorts of travelling. Coming to the third point of the smallness 
 of the increment of postmen, in no other trade does such a long period 
 obtain as that to which we are subjected — viz.. Is. per year for 16 years 
 before reaching the maximum of 54s. per week. I can conceive no defence 
 to this system, even taking into consideration tlie Departmental view of 
 contingent advantages. A statement of the rates of pay of various trades 
 has already been submitted in evidence to this Committee. I would add 
 tlie fact that most of these trades have an apprenticeship attached of five 
 
 I
 
 Wages — Annual Increment — Zone System — Maximum. 39 
 
 or seven years, at the expiration of which the youth becomes a journeyman, 
 and at once claims and receives the current wages of his trade, which, in a 
 number of instances, ranges from 34s. to 403. per week. Add to this the 
 fact tliat the knowledge he has obtained will procure for him the employ- 
 ment in one shop as well as another, and compare it with the position of a 
 postman of five or seven years' service of work, Avhich is one of no earthly 
 use to anyone outside the Post OfBce. 
 
 The Chairman : At any rate, postmen are not liable to have to seek work 
 elsewliere so long as they stick to the Post Office? 
 
 A. Just so. 
 
 Q. Their employment is permanent, whereas other employers may fail. 
 Ccnserjuently a journeyman's employment is much less certain? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And considerations of weather come in? 
 
 A. Just so, sir. 
 
 Q. Take the building trade. A great portion of his time, especially in a 
 very hard wipter, a man might not be employed at all? 
 
 A. Certainly ; but it will be readily seen that a greater inducement should 
 be held out to men to make themselves proficient, both for their own sakes 
 and that of the public service. The Government rate of pay should be a 
 model to all other employers, instead of which we find that the arduous 
 duties of our dass are paid for at a rate which barely suffices to keep 
 body and soui together, the smallness of the increment granted not being 
 sufficient to keen pxce with the increasing responsibilities which the years 
 'oring upon us, \d the slow, tedious, dragging existence eventually reducing 
 men to n.ere a'ltomatons, knowing, as they do, that, however proficient 
 they may become, the only inducement held out to them is the paltry rise of 
 Is. per wee', per year. 
 
 Sir F. Ivlo-ratt: Tliat represents £2 12s. a year. I think one may be a 
 little deceive by the mention of the shilling. That is a small sum, but 
 £2 12s. is a considerable amount. It is always the case with weekly 
 increments thftt ii.ey seem much smaller than they really are. 
 
 Witness : What I have to submit is that the postman, considered officially, 
 is altogether a superior class to outside workers, and is expected by his 
 ability, good conduct, and high character, to set an example as a State 
 servant, both on and oii: duty. He is, before being placed on the staff, 
 subjected to an extremely rigid medical examination, which is so peculiarly 
 exacting t'lat men have, before now, been rejected by the medical officer 
 as unfit for the Postal Service, and have afterwards successfully passed the 
 medical examination for the army. We have, also, a searching investiga- 
 tion into our past life from childhood upwards. We have a probationary 
 period of two years, during which a man is constantly under special super- 
 vision before the confirmation of his appointment. We have a stringent 
 code of rules, numbering 61, as to what we should and should not do, 
 besides otlier orders issued from time to time to govern our conduct. We 
 have recently an order issued, whereby any n:an misconducting himself 
 when off duty is to be immediately reporte:!,. We have early and late 
 attendances, in which our work must bfe performed. We have the varying 
 influences of the English climate to contend with, the heavy work of 
 responsible deliveries, the continued good health required to cope with tlie 
 strain the work inflicts, the high standard of character and good behaviour 
 demanded on and off duty as long as uniform is worn, and these things 
 are rewarded at the end of each year by a rise of Is. per week. The public 
 expect the work that it gives its servants to do should be done well, and 
 we believe they are also in favour of a fair and proper wage being given for 
 services rendered. More especially is this the case with postmen, who 
 emerge into the street entrusted with thousands of pounds' worth of public 
 property without the slightest supervision. Work of this nature should be 
 amply recognised where well done, and iia asking that the annual incremeijt
 
 40 T. G. Barnes, S.E.D.O. 
 
 should be raised to 2s. for the reasons I have stated, I have every hope 
 that this Committee will recommend t'le same on behalf of a deserving 
 and painstaking class, who have been called, and justly called, the backljone 
 of the Postal Service. 
 
 The Chairman : And now come to tlie question of the 
 
 ABOLITION OF ZONES. 
 
 Witness : Yes ; I novr come to the question of the abolition of the zone 
 question. In dealing with this subject, I will endeavour to be as brief as 
 possible, inasmuch as the glaring anomalies of the present system do r.ot 
 require at my hands much explanation to show j"ou that the circumstances 
 under which the zone system was introduced years ago, do not, as far tus 
 I can see, hold good at the present time. That the appellation London an 1 
 its suburbs was at one time correct I admit, but the rapid growth of the 
 population, and the vast increase of factories and workshops on grounds 
 which, within my own recollection, were fields and gardens, has gradually 
 swallowed up every inch of space to build upon. That being so. streets 
 and roads now in existence in, as it were, the heart of London, have pro- 
 duced, so far as the wages of the London men are concerned, the most 
 peculiar results. I will give you a case in point. Supposing the Committee 
 were to get on an omnibus for a Id. ride at Hyde Park Corner ; you will 
 pioceed down Brompton Road, which on one side is delivered by town post- 
 men at a maximum of 34s., the other side of the road being done by men 
 of Zone 1, reaching 32s. You will then come into Fulham Road, and by 
 crossing Stamford Bridge, find yourselves in Zone 2, where the maximum is 
 30s. Tlius, in the course of a Id. ride, we are enabled to show you a 
 specimen of the system under which the postmen of London are paid. 
 I could multiply this illustration from any other district in London, but I 
 think I have said enough to convince you tliat this state of things is not 
 a fair, just, or reasonable one. Wliy the people living on one 5,ide of 
 Brompton Road should have their letters delivered by a postman who only 
 reaches 32s. per week, whilst they on the other side have a man with a 
 maximum of 34s., is a question it would be very difficult for an intelligent 
 Londoner ■*"? answer. Such, however, is the case, and I ask that this unfair 
 system snculd at once be done away with, and in its place there sinil be 
 one class receiving the same wa.ge from start to finish with the same 
 pro.si3ects in view. 
 
 Tiie Chairman : Would you apply that to the whole of the Louder 
 district? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is, the whole of the five zones? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. I suppose it is a fact that the process of delivery is more severe in 
 the City than it is outside? 
 
 A. We do not admit that, sir. 
 
 Q. But is there not more to do in the way of getting upstairs to deliver 
 letters at officas in the City? 
 
 A. We do not admit for a moment that a man in the City or S.E. District 
 works harder than a man at Peckham or Clerkenwell or Kensington and 
 other so-called suburban offices. Indeed, the contention will be put to you 
 that the men in the suburbs work harder. 
 
 Q. I .should imagine that one of the principal grounds for saying that some 
 of the City and town deliveries are more severe than others is that they 
 involve such an amount of stair-climbing. Is not that so? Would it not 
 be the general opinion of London postmen that that is so ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but in comparing the deliveries you must take into consideration 
 that in the suburbs men have long gardens to traverse before they reach 
 the door.
 
 "Wages — Annual Increment — Zone System — Maximum. 41 
 
 Q. Yes ; but in the City a man may have to go up half-a-dozen flights of 
 stairs in one building. That shows an increased difficulty of delivery, does 
 it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I am informed by Mr. Churchfield that the walks in th« 
 City are smaller, and there are more men to cover them. 
 
 Q. But are there not a good many more deliveries? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then your opinion would be, speaking for your Association, that the 
 extra difficulty of delivery in the town districts is more than compensated 
 by the larger staff of men to perform the delivery? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And your opinion is, too, that so far from liaving harder work to do 
 they have easier work? 
 
 A. Not nece.ssarily. They have the same responsibilities. 
 
 Q. I am not speaking of responsibilities — they would perhaps be about 
 the same — I am referring to actual physical labour. 
 
 A. I think if that question wei'e put to a suburban instead of to a to\vn 
 man, he would emphatically answer that heavy physical labour devolyes 
 more on a suburban than a town man. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Why? 
 
 A. In consequence of the length of the deliveries, and, as I mentioned 
 before, the long gardens to lie traversed before reaching the doors at which 
 the letters are to be delivei-ed. 
 
 Q. A man in the suburbs only works eight hours. Is not that so? 
 
 A. And it is the same with the man in the City. 
 
 Q. And there is no increased labour in walking up and down gardens 
 than in walking along a straight delivery? 
 
 A. Tlxat is so. 
 
 Q. But surely there is greater labour put ujion a man who has stairs 
 to travel up and down? 
 
 A. In a sense it does not entail more physical labour than is undergone 
 by a man in the suburbs. 
 
 The Chairman : I would sooner walk on a level all day than go up and 
 down stairs. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not a fact tJhat the men in the City are put to an 
 expense for travelling to and from home which does not fall upon a man in 
 the suburbs? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Would it not be very unjust not to give some consideration to a City 
 man who is living six or seven miles from home? Should he not have 
 some advantage over a man who lives probably within a mile of his work? 
 
 A. In a great ma,ny suburban districts in London the expense of living 
 near the office is quite as great as in the City. 
 
 Q. I am not defending the present zone system. Do you propose to 
 sweep away all the zones, and not give .some consideration to postmen who 
 are compelled to live a great many miles from their work, and are, conse- 
 quently, put to travelling expenses? 
 
 A. Well, sir, if we take into consideration this, that if our claims are 
 conceded and the weekly increment is increased to 2s., we should be able 
 to pay a little more for house rent than we are able to pay at the present 
 time. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Although you may pay more house rent, surely those 
 who are put to heavy travelling expenses would object to receiving the 
 same rate of wages as you, would they not? We have had this pressed 
 upon us strongly by the sorting class, and, indeed, one of your own 
 witnesses read out a list to-day of the high rents paid for single rooms 
 in the City. That would not be the case at Hendon, Finchley, and Edmon- 
 ton. A man would not have to pay 6s. a week for a single room there. 
 
 A. But take the West End of London, North-West of London, South
 
 42 T. a Barnes, S.E.D.O. 
 
 Kensington, and Hampstead. Men eannot live near their offices there. 
 Rents are far heavier than in the City or South-Eastern District, and, con- 
 sequently, men have to go outside even their own zones to reside. Yet 
 these places are suburbs, and are included in Zones 2 and 3. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Take Mr. Churchfield's own case, Mr. Barnes. He told 
 us that he lives at Manor Park? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And he is bound to travel to and from Manor Park every day of 
 his life? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And if he has split duties he must travel more than once daily? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Would it be fair to jmy him only the same wages as are paid to a 
 postman living at Manor Park and delivering there? 
 
 A. Manor Park is outside London. 
 
 Q. No ; it is in Zone 4. 
 
 A. In asking for the abolition "of zones we do not so much take travelling 
 expenses into consideration as the similarity of the work that we all of 
 us perform. That is our belief. The work in South Kensington is similar 
 to that in the City. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Would you extend that to the provinces ? Would you have 
 one rate of wages over the whole country? 
 
 A. I must leave that in tlie hands of the witnesses from the provinces. 
 
 Q. You have put forward a case of absurdity in which men delivering 
 letters on different sides of a street receive different rates of pay. Are 
 there not roads one side of which is in London while the other side is 
 out of the London district? 
 
 -^A. Very probably, and evidence will no doubt be laid before you on the 
 point. There is no reason, in our opinion, why a man at Newcastle-on-Tyne 
 should receive an increased maximum as compared with men on the other 
 side of the water at Gateshead. 
 
 Q. Then you are prepared to go very far in tlie direction of the alx)lition 
 of differences in the rates of pay to London postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Your argument is that increased rents and the cost of travelling acts 
 rather in an opposite direction? 
 
 A. I base my argument on the fact that a man as a postman has the 
 same responsibility, no matter what expenses he may be put to. The 
 remuneration should therefore be the same. 
 
 Q. Rennmeration after all is what you get ; it is not money alone, but 
 clothing, accommodation, and other things. All this must be taken into 
 account. In some places it is possible to get better accommodation for 
 less rent than in others, and if a man is put to less expense this way 
 surely it may be argued his rem.uneration is quite as high as that of the 
 man who ha^ a higher wage, but has to pay heavier rents? 
 
 A. I do not think that would apply in a great many cases. 
 
 Q. I quite understand your argument. But might not the difficulty be 
 met by a re-arrangement of the zones? 
 
 The Chairman : As I understand it, what you are asking is that in future 
 the minimum wage of postmen should be 24s. a week, and that it shall 
 rise by annual increments of more than Is. a week. What increase do you 
 suggest? 
 
 A. I suggest the increment should be 2s. a week. 
 
 Q. And then it should go up to 40s. Is that the request put forward 
 on behalf of the Association? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. And that that should apply to the whole suburban district without 
 anj' distinction? 
 
 A. Just so.
 
 Wages — Annual Increment — Zone System — Maximum. 43 
 
 Q. You do not speak for any outside the suburban district? 
 
 A. No, my lord. I speak for the established postmen of London. I 
 am not laying before you the case of a square mile of this important city, 
 but that of the whole of London — Greater London, I might say — where 
 men breathe the same air. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Had you not better modify that statement. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness : Well, perhaps I had better cut those words out. I am speaking 
 on behalf of men who pay the same for food, clothing, light, and rent, 
 have the same responsibilities, and the same drastic rules to govern them, 
 and yet have a difference in their maximum of 2, 4, and 6 shillings a week. 
 Such offices as Peckham. Hampstead, Kttisingtou, and others, with a 
 staff of postmen of 100 and over, cannot surely be considered inferior in 
 any respect to the one in which I am engaged myself, where the numbers are 
 not very much larger. With these observations I will leave the matter of 
 the abolition of these distinctions in your hands, confident that, however 
 strong may have been the necessity tor them in the past, London is at the 
 present time such a huge network of streets and roads, with very little differ- 
 ence one from the other, that it is absolutely essential that the same rule and 
 the same system should apply to all. 
 
 INCREASE OF MAXI^IUM. 
 
 In asking for your recommendation that the wages of London men 
 should reach a maximum of 40s., I do so on the following grounds: — Most 
 of the arguments in fa,vour of an increased increment apply equally to 
 this question, and I beg to advance the following additional reasons, viz: — 
 (1) That this is the maximum of a 2nd class sorter ; (2) lack of promo- 
 tion ; and (3) heavy strain of work, precluding men from receiving benefit 
 from the Superannuation Act. With regard to the first point, I have 
 already adduced in favour of an increased increment the argument that 
 the work of a 2nd class sorter is practically the same as that of a postman, 
 and as their maximum is 40s., we reasonably expect the same amount. This 
 statement I may strengthen by mentioning my second point — lack of pro- 
 motion. Whereas the 2nd class sorter has a superior class to go to after 
 reaching the 40s., the postman is in a sense stationary when he attjiins 
 his present maximum. Tliis question will Ije more fully gone into by my 
 colleague, Mr. Harris, on promotion, but dealing with the question as it 
 presents itself to us at the present time, we have, with very few exceptions, 
 nothing further to look to than the present maximum. The third point is 
 the heavy work and consequent break-up, both physically and mentally, 
 of the system long before it should be, thereby rendering the Superannuation 
 Act to a large number of men inoperative. More so, as the wages of 
 postmen as so small and so long before what I may term '" decent," that it 
 is well-nigh impossible to save anything for the time when the breadwinner 
 is taken away. This we contend should not be. The maximum asked for Ls 
 not only a fair and reasonable one, but is warranted by the fact of a man 
 being through it enabled, as the years tell upon him, to provide himself with 
 additional comforts, and will thus not only prove an incentive to good for 
 junior men, but a more substantial benefit for the older ones. Another 
 point that should be considered in relation to this question of maximum is 
 that the average weekly wage for the whole 16 years, during which a man 
 is falalif^^ng for his maximum, is only 26s. 
 
 The Chairman : In that do you include any allowance for stripes ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; they are not wages. 
 
 The Chairman: "What? 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What are they? 
 
 A. It is an emolument given by the Treasury for good conduct. You 
 cannot, therefore, call it wages. A man cannot claim a stripe the same 
 as liQ, can claim an increment. 
 
 Q. A man of good conduct gets a stripe a^ a matter of course t
 
 44 T. G. Barnes, S.E.D.O. 
 
 A. Just so, sir. In regard to the maximum, I would like to mention a 
 statement made by the late P.M.G. in his speech in the motion which 
 resulted in the appointment of this Committee. He states that the maxi- 
 mum wages of sorters before the revision of 1881 were, 1st class 45s. per 
 week, and 2nd class 25s. They are now 56s. and 40s. respectively. Further, 
 t!ie maximum of the postmen of London was 30s. j>er week, ajid have since 
 been raised 4s., making 34s. total ; but at the same time as this statement 
 was made in the House of Commons, no mention was made of the fact 
 that Mr. Fawcett, at the time of increasing the maximum by 2s., took it off 
 the minimum, thereby makmg tlie new entrants pay for what was granted 
 to the senior m^n. 
 
 The Chairman : It hardly paid for it. New entrants would only be 
 kept tliere a certain time. 
 A. Just so. 
 
 Q. And, therefore, it is not quite a set-off? 
 
 A. But it did not prove siicli a great boon to the postmen as was 
 represented at the time. We contend it was not. During the last 30 years 
 the only increase the postmen have had has been this 4s., and of that 28. 
 was granted by Mr. Fawcett, who at the same tune took 2s. away. 
 Q. That is what you call the set-off? 
 
 A. Yes. I would also draw your attention to the fact that the difference 
 between the maximum of a 2nd class sorter and a postman before 1881 was 
 5s. in favour of the postman. l)ut now the difference is 6s. in favour of 
 the 2nd class sorter, making their increase 15s. to the postman's 4s. It 
 ■^^'ill thus be apparent to all that the claim for equal treatment with other 
 classes on this subject is both right and reasonable. 
 
 The Chairman : How do you make the 15s. ? I only make it lis. 
 A. Tlie pay of a 2nd class sorter before 1881 was 25s. maximum, now 
 it is 40s. The difference represents the 15s. 
 
 The Chairman : Oh, yes ; we are striving at exactly the same thing. 
 A. The 2nd class sorter's increase is 15s., as compared with the postmen's 
 4s. I do not treat the postmen as two classes. It amounts to this, that 
 while we have received an increase of 4s. to our maximum, our increment 
 has not been altered in any shape or form, while in the case of the sorters it 
 has been altered first, from Is. to Is. 6d., and then from Is. 6d. to 2s. 
 Ours, I repeat, has not been altered a farthing. Yet they have received 
 the huge addition of 15s. to their maximum. The wages question, I may 
 say, is the crux of the whole grievance of the London men. They con- 
 sider that they have been treated unfairly in the past, and that they have 
 seen classes which, in a sense, are junior to them, reaping large benefits, 
 while nine out of every ten postmen in London have to be contented with 
 a maximum of 34s. a week, and have no hope of anything else. They ask 
 that this state of things should be altered, and that they shall receive equal 
 consideration with other classes for the work they perform. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When you say they have no hope of anything else, have 
 you not left out the hope of promotion to overseerships ? 
 
 A. I think the figures Mr. Harris will give on the question of promotion 
 to the overseers' class will still further bear out what I have said. In 
 my own office there have been two promotions of postmen as overseers 
 during the last 20 years. There are 150 men before me, so when it will 
 become my turn I cannot make out. (Laughter.) 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Is there no other promotion of any sort? 
 A. The other promotion.s are to lobljy officers. But there are none such 
 in the suburban districts. Wo contend that taking a man from the S.E. 
 District Office and living h'm a head postmansliip at New Cross or 
 Blackheath is unfair to th°. New Cross and Blackheath men. 
 
 The Chairman : Surely the effect of your sclieme would be to put all 
 districts on an eqxialit3% and th'^n there would be no question of hardships 
 with regard to transfers? 
 
 A.. Vot at all. Every man would take his turn according to seniority.
 
 Wages — Annual Increment — Zone System — Maximum. 45 
 
 That would be much better than the present system. [Mr. Harris sends 
 me a note that I am not to go into this question. (Laughter.) He will 
 do that.] 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you happen to know the maximum pay of police con- 
 stables in London? 
 
 A. 32s. 
 
 Q. That is the maximum pay? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Their attendances are somewhat similar to your own? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but there are greater incentives to a policeman to make 
 himself efficient than there are in the case of postmen. I was asking a 
 policeman the other day, and he told me their minimum was 24s. and the 
 maximum 32s. But every man has an equal chance of being promoted 
 to the rank of sergeant and inspector. The same system applies to the 
 whole police service. 
 
 Q. You think their prospects of promotion are better? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. If we received the same incentives I do not think we 
 should object to a minimum vastly different to our own. 
 
 Q. I presume the age entrance Ls different? 
 
 A. I think it is very little higher than our own. It is 21. 
 
 Q. Very few constables go on at 21 surely? 
 
 A. I have seen some I have thought younger than that. I should like 
 to add in regard to the zone system that I might have brought into 
 comparison the case of the police at such places as Sutton and Croydon. 
 They are in the Metropolitan area, and the men there receive the same 
 consideration, as far as pay and everything else is concerned, as those who 
 work at Bow Street or in the Borough. 
 
 Mr. Smith : The City police force is, of course, a different force? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. In bringing my remarks to a close on the wages question, 
 I trust I 'have said sufficient to show you the necessity for the same amount 
 of justice, treatment, and equality as those have already received whose 
 responsibilities and work are no heavier or greater than ours. In the 
 questions I have had the honour to lay before you, I am proud to say 
 that I represent the Avhole of the London postmen — some 5,000,in number — 
 who are anxiously and expectantly looking forward to a better condition of 
 things, with brighter prosjjects for all concerned. 
 
 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Bame.s. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I should just like to ask exactly what the witness is 
 asking for. I understand it is that the men should enter at 24s. practically 
 at 19 vears of age? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And rise by annual increments of 2s. a week until they reach a 
 maximum of 40s. ? That would make eight years? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What stripes could a man earn in that time? 
 
 A. One stripe. 
 
 Q. A shilling a week for each stripe? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And, in addition, the emoluments of the office are uniform, pension, 
 and care during sickness? 
 
 A. Yes, that embodies our claim. We want a minimum of 24s. a week, 
 rising by annual increments of 2s. weekly to 40s., and with stripes that 
 would give U!3 43s. I find the minimum age for the City Police is 19 years 
 and the wages 25s., with a rise of Is. 6d. yearly to the maximum. 
 
 Mr. Smith : So that they are on a higher scale in the City? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I sincerely hope that although I have not gone so fully 
 into the case as I might have done, the gravity of the wages question will 
 appeal very forcibly to you. The established men of London are looking 
 forward very anxiously for your decision.
 
 C. J. WAENER, S.W.D.O. 
 
 Wages- CijRiSTMAS Boxes. 
 
 WESTanNSTER, February 3, 1896. 
 
 Mr. C. J. Wai-ner, of the S.W. District Office, was next examined: — 
 
 The Chairman: You are a postman in tlie S. Western District? 
 
 A. That is so, my lord. 
 
 Q. How did you come into the Service? 
 
 A. I entered on the 20th April, 1876, as a boy-sorter. I was promoted 
 to be second-class letter-carrier on the 18th Xovember, 1878, and further 
 promoted to first-class town postman on the 1st July, 1883. 
 
 Q. Then you are at your maximum? 
 
 A. That is so, my lord. 
 
 Q. You want to speak more especially about Christmas boxes. Will 
 you tell us what you have to say? 
 
 A. Before I commence my statement I should like to say I believe that 
 this question is one that has caused a great many other grievances, arising 
 from the fact that it has lowered the status of jiostmen in the eyes of the 
 Department, and thus caused them to be looked down upon. It is a fact 
 that Christmas boxes have been, and still are looked upon as a source of 
 which the wages of postmen are supplemented, year by year, a view taken 
 both by the postmen and the public, and which is also, I believe, shared 
 by the Department, inasmuch a^ we can conceive no other reason for the 
 gzeat disparity which exists between the amounts paid respectively to 
 postmen and to other classes in tlie Postal Service. If this view is correct, 
 as I shall endeavour to prove, then it can easily be imderstood why postmen 
 should seek to obtain a fixed in preference to an unknown quantity ; I 
 say "unknown," because persons who give this year may, and often do, 
 refuse the next. It has l^een estimated that the postmen receive in Christmas 
 boxes as much as would equal 5s. per week per man. This I shall prove is 
 the amount estimated by tlie Department, and, we believe, taken into 
 consideration by them in fixing the amount of our wages. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are you referring to a document read by a previous witness ? 
 
 A. Yes, partly so ; but I have some other evidence. The Department have 
 not shut their eyes to the fact that the postman, in addition to his wages, 
 receives annually from the public somethmg which makes his income larger 
 tlian which he receives from the Department. This is easily proved by the 
 fact that in provincial towns postmen who perform duties other than those 
 of the delivery of letters, receive allowances which are, in some cases, as 
 much as 7s. per week, and which allowances were at one time stated (on 
 the wage sheets) to be in lieu of Christmas boxes ; this shows that at least 
 the Christmas boxes are recognised as emoluments. But, whereaS tlie man 
 who receives the allowance in lieu gets the benefit of it in superannuation, 
 the one who receives the actual thing does not. I shall now show hoW th^.
 
 Christmas Boxes. 4'? 
 
 Department recognise and foster the system. The rule sanctioning the 
 practice is as follows : — 
 
 " Although you are allowed to receive, and, indeed, respectfully to ask 
 for Christmas boxes, you are not to demand them, and any well-founded 
 complaint of importunity towards the public will be very seriously dealt 
 with. Unless you agree with the other men on the walk as to the division 
 of Christmas boxes, you will be required to furnish the Postmaster with a 
 detailed statement of the several amounts you have received from each 
 person or firm, and to submit to the decision of the Postmaster as to your 
 share." 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Are the boxes shared among the men in each district 
 equally ? 
 
 A. On each walk. 
 
 Q. But if one walk produces more than another, is not an average drawn 
 for the whole district? 
 
 A. No ; only for each walk. The rule continues : — " You are strictly 
 forbidden to solicit gratuities on account of the delivery and collection of 
 parcels." This seems to show that the Department recognise, as it were, 
 that the letter-carriers have certain vested interests, while at the same time 
 they also recognise the evils of the system, inasmuch as they will not allow 
 any extension of it by allowing men who deliver parcels to solicit gratuities. 
 This is obviously unjust, because there is no difference in the status of 
 postmen who deliver letters and parcels respectively, yet men have been 
 punished and rendered liable to dismissal from tlie Service for doing what 
 other men have done year after year, and are still allowed to do. Of course, 
 we agi-ee tliat it would not be right to allow the system to be extended ; 
 indeed, the general public would not stand it. Still, a man who delivers 
 parcels is supposed to receive as much wages as one who delivers letters, 
 whereas, taking Christmas boxes into consideration, he does not. In con- 
 nection with this I may quote a statement made by the late Mr. Raikes, 
 when Postmaster-General : " It has appeared both practical and advisable 
 to prevent the extension of it to other classes, and, with this in view, the 
 soHcitiition of Christmas boxes by Post Oifice servants, other than letter- 
 carriers, is prohibited at pain of dismissal." I would here point out that 
 the distinction above, i.e., letter-cai-rier, no longer exists, all being desig- 
 nated postmen, and if I use the word "letter-carrier" again, it will be 
 merely to distinguish between men who deliver letters and those who 
 deliver parcels. In the 5th Report of the Postmaster-General, 1859, appears 
 an appendix headed, "To the London Letter-Carriers," and dated " G.P.O., 
 29 September, 1858," and signed by the Controller of the Circulation De- 
 partment, of which the followmg is an extract: — "The lowest wage of any 
 London letter-carrier (this being obtainable by a youth of 17 — often the son 
 of an elder letter-carrier) is 19s. a week, advancing with every year's 
 good service to 23s., while those who are willing and able to become sorters 
 may rise into classes receiving 25s. to 30s. a week, from 32s. to 38s., and 
 from 40s. to 50s. (this is a point I wish most particularly to impress upon 
 the Committee), though some of you appear imwilling to become regular 
 sorters, since that office entails the loss of Cliristmas boxes (averaging, it 
 is believed, more than £8 per year, and on some walks exceeding even £20) 
 which are given to letter-carriers." I will quote another extract from a 
 Memorandum Circular, dated 22nd March, 1865: — " Thev (postmen) receive 
 front the public in gratuities at Christmas a sum, which, if divided and 
 spiead over the whole year, would produce, on an average, 5s. a week for 
 each man." Further, I may state that the Postmaster of one of the largest 
 districts in London has decided that in the case of postmen recently de- 
 . ceased, the surviving relatives are to receive the amount of the share to 
 which those postmen would have been entitled, had they lived. Again, in 
 a footnote to a recent order, restricting leave of absence, it is distinctly stated
 
 48 C. J. Warner, S.W.D.O. 
 
 that the restrictions do not apply to leaves of absence granted to postmen 
 for the jjurpose of collecting Christmas boxes. This is, I think, sufficient 
 to show that the Department have, and still do, recognise the system. I 
 now come to the moral aspect of the question. The postman is the out- 
 ward and visible sign of the inward and invisible (to the public) — (laughter) 
 — working machinery of the Post Office, an institution of which we as 
 postmen are proud, and justly so, considering the very large share we bear 
 in keeping the machine in perfect working order. I mean by outward and 
 visible sign that the postman is the only one who is kno^vn to the public. 
 That is due to the fact of his wearing a imiform, whereas there are other 
 classes in the Post Office of whom the public know nothing. As postmen, 
 and more so as men, we feel that it involves a loss of self-respect and 
 dignity, as uniformed Civil servants, to go annually from door to door, 
 book in hand, " respectfully " begging a gift of money. We also consider 
 that it is not worthy of such a gi-and civilising agency as the Post Office 
 that this bai-barous sj-stem should exist. In 1881, the late Mr. Fawcett 
 (then Postmaster-General) said: "I believe that, in the majority of cases, 
 Christmas boxes are not given reluctantly. I certainly think that if they 
 were prohibited the public would still continue to give them. Under these 
 circumstances, I am not prepared to advise their prohibition, but I fully 
 recognise that it would lie undesirable for any letter-carrier to solicit 
 Christmas boxes with impunity." I differ from tlae late Mr. Fawcett when 
 he says " the majority of cases " ; it would be more correct to say " some 
 cases." We are deeply sensible of the liberal and generous manner in which 
 a portion of the public respond, and believe that they are sensible of the 
 heavy responsibilities we incur, and are pleased to reward us in that manner ; 
 but it is the sj'stem of which we complain, as it is obvious that if a. man 
 is allowed to ask the well-to-do, the man who delivers in a poor neighbour- 
 hood has as much right to increase his wages by this means as the former, 
 and will exercise his right in the same manner. Hence we have the de- 
 grading spectacle of uniformed Civil servants going from door to door, 
 from the large tradesman to the small shopkeeper, from the mechanic's house 
 to the labourer's tenement, " begging," and authorised to do so by the 
 largest revenue-earning Department in the State. Even among the well-to-do 
 we find a growing tendency to revolt against the system, as witness the 
 correspondence in the " Morning Po.st " and other papers during the past 
 Christmas, but I submit that, whether given freely or grudgingly, or whether 
 refused altogether, the fact that solicitation is authorised and carried out 
 systematically condemns the system on its moral aspect. 
 
 The following are the reasons which I adduce for abolition: — 1st. That 
 the system of tipping is against the spirit of the age, as can be seen by the 
 number of restaurants, theatres, and other large establishments where 
 gratuities are prohibited, where, formerly, attendants, etc., had to depend 
 largely on tips for their wages, which now are paid by the proprietors. 
 2nd, That the State should not follow but lead the way. 3rd, That prohi- 
 bition by the Post Office of gratuities would be the downfall' of the entire 
 system — (laughter) — as large corporations, vestries, councils, water com- 
 panies, etc., would follow the lead given by them, and also prohibit their 
 servants from soliciting Christmas boxes, and thus a great boon would be 
 conferred on the general public. 4th, That the system, "which has no 
 parallel in the Civil Service," is a standing blot on the administration of 
 one of the most important departments of the State, and for this reason 
 alone should be discontinued. 5tli, That it is opposed to the best prin- 
 ciples of political economy. 6th, That it is unjust to allow one postman 
 to solicit and receive this emolument, and to punish another for seeking to 
 obtain the same. 7th, That it saps the independence of the man and brings 
 the Department into contempt ; and, to sum up, it is degrading to the 
 po.stman, humiliating to the Department, and exasperating to the pul)lic. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: You draw a distinction between tHie man who gets a
 
 Christmas Boxes. 49 
 
 Cliristmas box for delivering letters and one who gets it for delivering 
 parcels. Does not the same man deliver both parcels and letters ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; not as a general rule. A letter-carrier is a man who should 
 only deliver letters. But since the institution of the Parcel Post, a number 
 of parcels have been put on to him to help the parcel-man out. That is a 
 (question that will be dealt with by a subsequent witness. 
 
 The Chairman : There is a separate parcels delivery. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I've seen the man who delivers my letters coming 
 up the road laden with parcels. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness : I now come to the last and most important stage of my case, 
 viz. : compensation. I have endeavoured to show the evils of the S3'stem, 
 and also reasons why it should be discontinued, but, in asking for the aboli- 
 tion of tlie sj'stem, it should be distinctly imderstood that tlie postmen are 
 not prepared to sacrifice the pecuniary benefit derived from it without re- 
 ceiving compensation, as it is easy to see that, without compensation, the 
 postmen could abolish the system by refraining from solicibition. But it 
 would not be in human nature to expect that this should be the case. I 
 will premise that, from long usage, we have certain vested interests, which 
 it is necessary in the public interest that we should forego, and we are in 
 the position of those whose property is required to be taken for a public 
 improvement. (Laughter.) The course always followed in such cases is, I 
 believe, to buy the property owTiers out. I believe that a large majority of 
 the public are in favour of the abolition of this system, but I am certain 
 that very few would be unfavourable to compensation, and if, as I contend, 
 this would be of benefit to the greater number, tlien the great-er number 
 should pay. The postmen would have asked for the abolition of Cliristmas 
 boxes years ago, but there has been a fear that they might get tliem 
 taken away and receive nothing in lieu thereof. I, however, refuse to 
 believe that such an injustice would be perpetrated. Our case is that the 
 Department have, as I have shown, estimated this emolument at 5s. per 
 week per man, and we are therefore justified in believing that our wages 
 have been fixed as plus this amount ; therefore, in asking that this solicita- 
 tion of Christmas boxes should be prohibited, we ask at the same time tlia-t 
 such allowance sboidd be made (by an increase of wages or otherwise) as 
 would compensate us for the loss we should otherwise incur. I respectfully 
 submit that public opinion is ripe for the settlement of this most vexatious 
 question, and that it should be settled on these lines ; and, although I 
 woidd not urge that we have any strictly legal rights in the matter, I do 
 submit that we have very strong moral rights, and that it is not the 
 practice of this mighty and wealthy State to disregard its moral obliga- 
 tions. With these reservations, I confidently leave the Christmas box 
 question in your hands, believing that you Avill make such recommendations 
 as will do justice alike to the postmen, the community, and also the State. 
 
 The Chairman : What would you i^ut the average value of the Christmas 
 boxes at? 
 
 A. I put mine at over 5s. a week. 
 
 Q. You do? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You are in the South-Western District? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you in Zone 1 or 2 ? 
 
 A. I am a town postman. 
 
 The Chairman : Wliat guarantee could we have that the public would not 
 continue to give these Christmas boxes, as Mr, Fawcett suggested that they 
 probably would? 
 
 A. I am afraid I cannot give a guarantee for the public. 
 
 Q. It would be rather hard ou the public for it to have to pay twice over ? 
 
 A. It is the system of solicitation that we objects to. I do not think
 
 50 C. J. Warner, S.W.D.O. 
 
 that many of the public would give Christmas boxes if they knew it was 
 prohibited and if the postmen were receiving an equivalent. They would 
 continue to give, liowever, if the men received no equivalent. 
 
 Q. As to the 5s. : can it be certain the State would get the advantage 
 by putting an end to the practice? 
 
 *A. I think the heads of the Department might be trusted to see that that 
 was done. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Do railway companies prevent their guards and porters 
 taking tips? (Laughter.) Their case is very similar. 
 
 A. I presume that in the event of solicitation being prohibited the De- 
 partment — that is, the Postmaster-General for the time being, and the 
 Secretary — would see tliat the order was carried out, and would at once 
 issue a notice prohibiting the practice. After that any man soliciting 
 would be liable to dismissal in the same manner that a parcels delivery 
 man is liable now. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you suppose that in many cases in London the amount 
 tliat a postman gets out of the Christmas boxes is of the value of 5s. a 
 week ? 
 
 A. It may be ; but that is hardly our case. 
 
 Q. It is 'a part of the case with which I, as chairman, have to make 
 myself acquainted. 
 
 A. You are taking London as a whole. But there are many men who, 
 from the nature of their duties, never receive the boxes. Men on collecting 
 duty get none. I was seven years before I had any share. 
 
 Q. Before you had any share? 
 
 A. Yes ; but that is gradually being altered. 
 
 The Chairman : It seems rather hard that a postman who collects on 
 a particular walk should not receive a share as well as the man who 
 delivers. 
 
 A. It is a custom which has obtained among postmen themselves, and 
 to a certain extent it has been sanctioned by the Postmasters. 
 
 The Chairman : I thought the Christmas boxes were divided on a plan 
 laid down by the Department. 
 
 A. The division is made on each walk separately. 
 
 Q. Surely it is strange that a postman collecting on a particular walk 
 should receive no share, simply because he does not happen to deliver 
 letters at the doors ? 
 
 A. It has been looked forward to as a kind of promotion. A man looks 
 forward to tb.e time when he can increase his maximum in that way. Tlie 
 same system does not obtain in two offices alike. The distribution goes more 
 by the custom of the particular office. 
 
 Q. Then they are not divided equally amongst the men on the same 
 walk? On your own walk how many men are there who receive Christmas 
 boxes ? 
 
 A. Four. 
 
 Q. How many men are there on the walk altogether? 
 
 A. I can hardly say. There might be from eight to ten. The other 
 compromise the matter by receiving a certain sum from the walk to be 
 divided amongst them at Christmas. 
 
 Q. There are eight or ten men on the walk, and of them only four receive 
 a share of the Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. They receive the largest share. 
 
 Q. Tell us the exact rule on your own walk. 
 
 A. The rule has been up to this Christmas — it will be altered next 
 Christmas — to divide them among the four senior men. 
 
 Q. And they take the whole? 
 
 A. No ; they have to contribute so much to the assistants' -fund, Tliere
 
 Chrislnias Boxes. 51 
 
 lias been a dispute at our office, and the Postmaster has decided that there 
 shall be a different mode of distribution next year. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: None of the money goes to the jjarcels men? 
 
 A. Not for the letter-carriers. They are another branch. Most of the 
 parcels men are in depots at separat*e otSces. The system of Christmas 
 jjoxes was in existence long before the Parcel Post was instituted. 
 
 The Chah-man : Is your own i>ersonal objection to Christmas boxes 
 founded on the fact that next Christmas you will receive a much smaller 
 share than last Christmas? 
 
 A. Not at all. 
 
 Q. You will receive a lesser share next Christmas? 
 
 A. Yes ; bat that does not alter the fact that the men have been 
 estimated by the Department to receive an equivalent of 5s. a week. 
 
 Q. I do not care a button about the Department. I want to know what 
 the facts are. If you don't choose to give me the facts I caimot form a 
 sound judgment. I do not want to talk about the Department. I want 
 to know absolute facts as to what occurs in the Service. I press you for 
 them. If you do not choose to tell me the facts, I repeat I cannot form a 
 sound judgment. 
 
 A. If the Christmas boxes were put into a heap and divided equally 
 between all the men who wear the postmen's uniform., they would not equal 
 5s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How do you know that? 
 
 A. I give it simply as my opinion. 
 
 Q. It is a guess. You do not know what the amount really is? 
 
 A. No ; I do not. 
 
 Q. Cannot you possibly tell us what it would averijt^e? 
 
 A. Not within a very large margin. 
 
 Q. Can you give us the amount on your own w^alk? 
 
 A. I do not know the amount this year. We have not yet shared it. 
 I believe it will be greater than last year. 
 
 The Chairman : What was it last year ? 
 
 A. I received £15 last year. 
 
 Q. Tliat is £60 among the four of you. What did the assistants get? 
 
 A. Each of the four paid 10s. into the assist^mts' fund. 
 
 Q. Then only £2 went to the assistants? 
 
 A. Yes ; but some of the assistants only do one delivery or part a day. 
 That is really not the point. We claim that the Department has estimated 
 the value of the Christmas boxes to each man at 5s. a week, and that, 
 consequently, our wages are 5s. a week less than they would otherwise be. 
 For the purpose of our argument it does not matter what the Christmas 
 boxes really amount to. 
 
 The Chairman : But another part of your argument was that, taking 
 the thing as a whole, the system must be given up, and that would involve 
 to the whole of the men a certain loss which the Department ouglit to 
 make good. 
 
 A. Yes, quite so ; but we add that whatever a man is paid by the public 
 would only be paid by the public still, although in another way. The men 
 would not then be allowed to go round with books. 
 
 Mt. Walpole : I should like to ask the previous witness — Mr. Barnes — 
 a question. When you asked for a scale of wages going up to 40s., did 
 you intend that to include Christmas boxes ? 
 
 Mr. Barnes (the previous witness) : No, sir ; I was only dealing with the 
 wages question. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Tlxen let us Understand what it is you really want. You 
 want a minmium of 24s. plus 5s., or 29s. in all, rising by annual increments 
 of 2r. to a maximum of 45s.? 
 
 Mr. Barnes : No, sir.
 
 52 C. J. Warner, S.W.D.O. 
 
 Mr. Warner (witness) : I am authorised to say tliat if the postman get 
 their whole demand upon the wages question conceded they would be willing 
 to forego the Christmas boxes, provided they received an immediate rise 
 of 2s. 
 
 The Chairman : All round ? 
 
 Mr. Smith: The existing men? 
 
 A. The existing men. I think that the increment of 2s. would com- 
 pensate these men who only had it in prospective. 
 
 Mr. Smith : What proportion of the whole stafif are sharing in the 
 Christmas boxes, taking into account those who are not acting as letter- 
 carriers and those who are parcels postmen? 
 
 A. I think in several offices they share equally. 
 
 Q. The parcels postmen? 
 
 A. Not the parcels postmen. 
 
 Q. You cannot answer the question perhaps, but, speaking roughly, what 
 would be the proportion of the whole of the postmen of London who at 
 any given time would receive nothing? 
 
 A. It would be less than one-fifth. I was particularly asked a question 
 as to my own office. That office is an exception to the rule. Among 
 suburban offices and district offices the rule is for every man who delivers 
 letters to take a share.
 
 D, S. BOSTON, Kentish Town. 
 
 Hours of Duty. 
 
 Westminsteu, Monday, February 10, 1896. 
 
 Mr. D. S. Boston (Kentish Town) gave evidence as follows: — 
 
 The Chairman: You are a London postman? 
 
 A. I am, my lord. Perhaps, Vjefore giving my evidence, I may be 
 allowed to say, in reference to the statement made by Mr. Walsh as to the 
 sorters being too higtily paid, and his suggestion that they should be 
 reduced to 45s., that that is not the opinion of the London postmen. They 
 do not complain of the high rate of wage of any class in the Service : they 
 only complain that the chaimel is not open to them to rise in the Service. 
 
 Q. What is your length of service? 
 
 A. Nineteen years. 
 
 Q. Did you enter as an auxiliary? 
 
 A. I was four years a messenger from 1872, and became postman in 1876. 
 
 Q. Are you at your maximum? 
 
 A. Ye.s, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you any stripes ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; three. 
 
 The Chairman : Are you going to speak entirely on London ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, entirely on London. 
 
 Q. Have you a statement? 
 
 A. I have. 
 
 Q. Then read it, please. 
 
 LONG HOURS OF DUJY. 
 
 Witness : In placing before you the long hours of the postmen, I respect- 
 fully ask your kind indulgence. I am sure, gentlemen, you will agree 
 with me when I say that they are the mose extraordinary hours that any 
 public body of servants ever worked. In a large portion of London — or, 
 I may say, in a considerable portion of the Postal Service — the duties 
 extend to some fourteen and sixteen hours per day — from 4 and 6 a.m. until 
 8 and 10 p.m. By working these long hours in the winter a man- is 
 deprived of all home comforts, and is almost prevented from any social 
 intercourse with his family. These arduous duties tell .«o much on the man that 
 in a few years his constitution is, in many cases, completely undermined — • 
 so much so, that from time to time he feels bodily and physically unfit 
 t> perform his duty, and is thus compelled to see the doctor, and go off 
 ill, so that he may get the rest that is so necessary for all who have to face 
 the bitter weather early and late. In a large number of cases the duties 
 are too much for the men, and result in their being off ill a number of 
 times, which eventually leads to their being certified unfit for further service,
 
 54 D. S. Boston, Kentish Town. 
 
 thus comi)elling them to take their bonus, which only makes the case worse, 
 as they are deprived of the pension which the}'' miglit have otherwise 
 enjoyed had their duties been arrangd so that they could have obtained 
 the rest and recreation that nature rec|uires for every man. A postman's 
 duty keeps him employed morning, noon, and night — ^no time for any little 
 pleasure that he sees thousands of his fellow-men enjoying who are in a 
 less responsible i:)ositicn than himself. What is possible for large employers 
 of labour is surely possible for the Post Office — that is, to arrange the 
 work of their employees so that they may be able to enjoy the comforts 
 of home in the winter, and share the enjoj-meuls of the summer evenings in 
 the many open spaces that are now at the service of the working classes, 
 so tluit they may breathe the pure air that is so necessary for those who 
 are employed all day in the busy and crowded streets of London. To make 
 it clear that these long hours do exist, I will give you a few instances: — 
 At the E.G. there are such duties as follows: Attend office's a.m., 10.50 
 a.m., and 5.20 p.m., finishing at 8 p.m., time covered 15 hours. Another 
 duty at same office: 5 a.m. to 7.30 a.m., 2.30 p.m. to 8 p.m., time covered 
 15 hours. W.D.O. attendance, G class, 4.45 a.m. (4 a.m. Mondays) to 
 8.30 a.m., 4.45 p.m. to 7 p.m. delivery, finishing 8.30 p.m., time covered 
 15^ hours; C class, 5 a.m., 12 noon, 4 p.m., finishing at 6.20 p.m., time 
 covered 13 hours 20 minutes. S.W.D.O., B class, attendance 5 a.m., 
 12.25 p.m., 4 p.m., finishing 6.20 p.m., time covered 13 hours 20 minutes ; 
 C class, 5 a.m., 1.25 p.m., 5 p.m., finishing 7.20 p.m., time covered 14 
 hours 20 minutes; G class, 4 a.m. to 7 a.m., 4 p.m. to 8.40 p.m., time 
 covered 16 hours 40 minutes. In the N.W. District at Hampstead A class 
 duty G.P. 6.15 a.m., 10.50 a.m., 3.50 p.m., 7.50 p.m., finishing at 10 p.m., 
 time covered 15| hours; B class duty, 6.15 a.m., 11.45 a.m., 3 p.m.. 5.30, 
 finishing at 8.15 p.m., time covered 14 hours; C class, 6.15 a.m., 11.40 
 a.m., 1 p.m., 7 p.m., finishing at 10 p.m., time covered 15| hours. At 
 Kilbum, B class, 6.25 a.m., 1 p.m., 6 p.m., 9 p.m., finishing 9.45 p.m., 
 time covered 15 hours 20 minutes; C class, 6.15 a.m., 11.20 a.m., 3 p.m., 
 8 p.m.. finishing 10 p.m.. time covered 15| hours. I may say that this is 
 not all. At a number of other offices in London the postmen are at the 
 present time perfoming these long hours. That it is possible to alter this 
 sad state of duties is clearly shown in offices where the revision has been 
 granted. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, the case of Hampstead is under con- 
 sideration is it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; it has been under consideration. 
 
 Q. It has grown extremely rajndly? 
 
 A. I do not say extremely rapidly. 
 
 Q. But, as a matter of fact, it has grown very rapidly? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it did grow so six years ago when a revision was first 
 promised. 
 
 Q. Is that your own district? 
 
 A. I was there ten years. I know it had groAvn considerably then, and 
 that in the last six years it has continued to grow, although not so rapidly 
 as previously. I .shall give a statement as to why the revision was pro- 
 mised six years ago. It lias since been under consideration, and how long 
 it will continue under consideration I am unable to s^y. It is only those men 
 like myself who can feel the cjreat benefit to be derived from the change of 
 duty. I am pleased to say Kentish Town was granted the revision some two 
 years ago. It can hardly be stated what a benefit it was to the men 
 tlie new arrangement of their duty, viz., 8 hours in 12. My only regret 
 is that there .should be any offices where such long hours still exist. It 
 cannot be urged that the outlay cannot be spared, as each year thousands of 
 pounds are added to the annual millions of profit of the Post Office, and 
 W'liich profit no other class in the Service helps to build up like postmeni
 
 Long Hours of Duty, " 55 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you admit that eight hours is reasonable? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have no complaint to make as to the hours? 
 
 A. No, not as to hours. In my further statement I shall have to com- 
 plain of tJie large number of attendances. As for the 8 hours in 12, the 
 men are very well satisfied ; thev like the change very much. The fact 
 that we help to build up the profits of the Service only makes our case the 
 more deserving. It may be said that the public, as taxpayers, must be 
 considered. In answer to that, I can only say I wish the public had to 
 give their opinion. I should be certain then there would be no more long 
 hours for the postmen. The public support, I am sure, we have had for 
 years past, from their various expressions of sympathy for the postmen, 
 who have to wade through the bitter cold and snow and rain of the 
 winter, often getting drenched to the skin, and arriving home late, tired, 
 and footsore, and again facing the same bitter weather in the early morning 
 with aching limbs. In urging our case, we are only asking the Department 
 to carry into effect the mandate of the Postmaster-General in 1890, which 
 mandatie I will explain. A deputation which waited upon the Postmaster- 
 General (the Right Hon. Cecil Raikes) in July, 1890, in reference to the 
 long hours, received from him the following statement : " With regard to 
 the hours over which your attendance is spread, I can tell you frankly, and 
 
 1 do not in the least mind saying it, on that point I am entirely with 
 you. I think it a very great hardship the hours over which your attendance 
 is spread should be anything like 16 hours. I will use my best endeavourg 
 to bring the 8 hoiu's within the 12." I can only say, gentlemen, that the 
 best endeavours of the Department have been very bad indeed. Six years 
 have passed away, and many are still awaiting anxiously for the promise 
 to be carried out. I can only hope that the time is near at hand when 
 this cruel mjustice will be done away with, I trust for ever. Things are 
 certainly not looking any the brigliter, for we have recent instances which 
 go to show an even longer extension of hours than 16 — the midnight staff 
 duijies. Some are as follows: — South Kensington, midniglit collection, 
 
 2 p.m. collection, 3 p.m. delivery, 7, 8, and 9 p.m. collections, five men 
 employed. I can even illustrate worse cases: Kilburn, N.W., midnight 
 collection, commencing 11 p.m., 10.30 a.m. collection, 4 p.m. delivery, 
 6 o'clock bj^e bag, 8 p.m. collection. You will see by tliat that the man 
 is employed all night. When he gets his rest I am unable to say. The 
 midnight commences at 11 p.m., and then he is on duty again at 10.30 a.m. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: When does the 11 p.m. collection finish? 
 
 A. I should say about 1.10 a.m. I take it that the man would have to 
 go to Cricklewood or Child's Hill. The despatch from Kilburn is, I think, 
 at 1.10 or 1.15. Then he has the 10.30 a.m. collection, the 4 p.m. delivery, 
 the 6 o'clock bye bag, and the 8 p.m. collection. He has not very long in 
 hand before he" conmiences again. Here is another case — S.W.D.O., mid- 
 night collection, 12 midnight till 4 a.m., 4.45 till 3 p.m., time covered 
 20 hours ; 12 midnight till 4 a.m., 6 p.m. till 9 p.m. ; 12« midnight till 
 4 a.m., 7 p.m. till 9.45 p.m. You will see that the man is at work all 
 night. It is not quite so bad as the last case, but still, according to all 
 reason, when he works at night he should not be called upon to work in 
 the day. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He is off at 4 in the morning till 4 or 5 in the afternoon ? 
 
 A. Admittedly, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: If you count the duties from 4.45 in the afternoon they 
 spread over II5 hours. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but the Department does not count in that way : it counts 
 from midnight. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : His work per day is within 12 hours. 
 
 A, Yes, sir ; in the night it would be within 12 hours.
 
 56 D. S. Boston, Kentish Town. 
 
 Q. There is a break? 
 
 A. Yes ; but our contention is tliat these things could be arranged 
 better, and all we want is that they shall be so arranged. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The man has from 4 in the morning till 6 at night, and 
 on another duty, as you show, it is from 4 a.m. to 7 p.m. that he is off. 
 That gives an interval of 14 hours in one case and 15 in the other. 
 
 A. Yes ; but there are two duties, and I am showmg that they could be 
 better arranged. One man does his time ri^ht off. He works at night, 
 and has his rest in the day. These tilings, I say, are badly arranged, and 
 it is possible to arrange them better. Tlie duties I have quoted apply 
 also to other districts, and clearly show that Ijotli day and night are broken 
 into. So where the rest for these men comes in I am unable to say. It 
 must be clear to your minds, gentlemen, that this system of long hours is 
 thoroughly bad. If Dr. Wilson condemned the system of split duties, his 
 opinion upon this question is Ijeyond a doubt. Before I conclude this 
 question 1 wish to make it perfectly clear that what is asked for is that the 
 8 hours of the jjostmen may be worked within the 12. I can, I am sure, 
 now leave this question in your hands, and only hope that you will be able 
 to see your way clear to advise the immediate change of these long hours, 
 and thus throw light and happiness into the homes and lives of the i:)ostmen. 
 
 NUMBER OF ATTENDANCES. 
 
 The next grievance of the postmen that I have to bring before you is 
 the large number of attendances that the men have to make to complete 
 their day's work. In a number of instances they have to attend as many 
 as five times, and there are instances of .six and seven times. As to the 
 last mentioned I will explain, as I have no wish to mislead you on that 
 point. I wish to qualify the statement by saying that tliey are separate 
 attendances in this way — each attendance is ticked off, although some of 
 the duties follow on each other. Still it i>s possible for a postman to sign 
 six or seven times a day for being late. It renders him liable, therefore, 
 to excessive punishment for coming on late. At Churton Street, S.W. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Cliurton Street does not exist now, does it? 
 
 A. Yes; it is in conjunction with S.W. At Churton Street, S.W.. there 
 is a dutv which is made up as follows: — 8.40 a.m. collection, 10.40 a.m., 
 11.40 a.m., 1.40 p.m., 2.40 p.m., 3.40 p.m.. and 6 p.m. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: How long does the collection take? 
 
 A. Just under an hour. 
 
 Q. And are these all collections? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But surely Churton Street does not exist any longer, does it? 
 
 A. It is still in existence. 
 
 (X At the South-Western Office? Are you sure of it? 
 
 Aj^ Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long does the 1.40 duty take? 
 
 A. I should say three-quarters of an hour. 
 
 Q. Then practically the 1.40 and 3.40 duties would be contmui'us duty, 
 and the interval would be allowed as part of the man's working time? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you see any hardship in bringing him on thus, seeing that the 
 interval of rest is allowed for as part of his working hours, and he is paid 
 for it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it makes seven attendances in a day. 
 
 Q. But if the Department pays for the whole time from 1.40 to 3.40 
 it practically is one attendance? 
 
 The Chairman : the })oint is that at each of the hours named he can be 
 fined for late <i,ttend ince. He can have seven fines a da}"". 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If he is paid for attendance at the office there can be no 
 question of his coming on late. 
 
 I
 
 Long Hours of Duty. 57 
 
 Sir F. Movratt: You have given us seven attendances, and you say that 
 they are practically three-quartei-s of an hour each? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That makes the duty a little over six hours? 
 
 A. Yes ; but then 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Where the interval is under a half-hour or approaching it 
 it is paid for as part of a man's duty, is it not? 
 
 A. I have explained in the early part that I wished to qualify the state- 
 ment. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then you complain not of the fatiguing number of 
 attendances, but of the signing of the book? 
 
 A. It makes him compete very unfairly with other men, as he has the 
 possibility of signing the late book seven times a day, and therefore he is 
 liaVjle to excessive punishment. 
 
 Mr. Smith: Have you kno^vn excessive punishment coming from that? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is looked upon as a very serious offence in the eyes of the 
 Department to be late in attendance. It prevents a man getting his rise 
 or strifXiS. 
 
 Q. But in this particular case in which you divide what appears to us 
 to be a continuous duty into seven parts, and call them seven attendances, 
 you saj^ the point is that on each the man can be fined for being late. 
 But his whole time is at the service of the Department. During the period 
 he can wait at the office in the intervals, and therefore it is difficult to .see 
 where the opportunity of being late comes in. 
 
 The Chairman : It would be considered four attendances in the eyes of 
 tlie Department? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. But the man is not obliged to remain at the office. 
 If he has 20 minutes' interval he may go away and then he runs the risk 
 of being late. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Yes? 
 
 A. He will be supposed to return at a given time, and, as a previous 
 witne.ss has shown, men are called upon to sign the late book for two minutes. 
 
 Q. Do you really mean to say that this man goes on duty at 1.40, again 
 at 2.40, and again at 3.40, although the Department i>ays for the whole of 
 his time, from 1.40 to 3.40? That lieing so, is there any grievance what- 
 ever in saying that the whole time being paid for the man should be con- 
 sidered on duty? 
 
 A. I am not saying that. What I am pointing out is that this man can 
 sign the late book seven times. He has to make seven separate attendances. 
 He lias to be in the office seven separate times, and may have to sign the 
 late book each time. That added up in the course of the year is a very 
 serious thing. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: But that is the price he pays for availing himself of the 
 intervals between the collections, for which time he is paid by the De- 
 partment? 
 
 A. He does not want it. He does not look at it in that way. 
 
 Q. But it is the way in which I look at it. This man is really paid for 
 his attendance from 10.40 to 3.40. 
 
 A. But he goes out 
 
 Q. He may if he likes. Although he is paid for the time he can get awaj'? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when he avails himself of the opportunity of going away, 
 although his time is paid for, you talk of it as a hardship that he should 
 have to sign the book when he comes back. 
 
 A. Quite right. But it is all very well to say that the Department 
 pays for the intervals. But the man has to go to his collection every time ; 
 he has to make a journey that occupies a certain amount of time, and 
 sometimes by the time he finishes one collection it is time to start on the 
 next.
 
 58 D. S. Boston, Kentish Town. 
 
 Q. If he lias no time on his hands tlien it is continuous duty, is it not? 
 Then he would not have to re-sign : that is only done when he has time 
 on his hands and goes away? 
 
 A. That is the point. A man has to sign for every separate collection, 
 and he may have to sign the late book if he is only two or three minutes late. 
 
 Q. But he would not be late unless he took the time himself. You say 
 there is more than time enough for delivery between each collection. 
 
 A. There is time enough, I take it, between. But various causes of delay 
 occur. Lots of things happen which are not expected by the Department, 
 such as difference of time by the clocks. Perha^js a man may be kept a 
 minute or two at a receiver's oflice. All these may contribute to late 
 attendance, and I say that in such a case as that with which we are dealing 
 a man would be very heavily handicapped as compared with a man who 
 has to put in fewer attendances. I wish to make this as seven separate 
 attendances only in the sense I have explained, viz., that there are seven 
 separate possibilities for the postman to sign tlie late book ; the same would 
 apply to the six times in a great number of cases. The above fact is alone 
 sufficient to show that there is just reason why the attendance should be 
 considerably less. Four attendances seem to be the recognised fair number 
 by the Deimrtment, but the postmen think differently. The attendances 
 are in most cases made up of collections, which often means walking a 
 mile and over each time to commence liis collection, thus compelling him 
 to start some 15 or 20 minutes before his actual duty commences. It will 
 be readily seen that this means a man working an hour over his time every 
 day. The injustice of this cannot be denied. And in fairness, I ask that 
 these number of attendances be reduced to two or, at the most, three atten- 
 dances per day. These attendances are a very serious thing for the postmen 
 in many ways. He often gets wet through, and is compelled to remain in 
 his wet clothing because there is not time to go home to change, and in a 
 number of cases he is obliged to get some of his meals out of doors, or 
 put to the expense of riding to and fro, which makes inroads into his already 
 insufficient wage. No better support can be given to this grievance than 
 the statement of Dr. Wilson, who condemned the system of repeated at- 
 tendances as injurious in every sense to the constitutions of the strongest 
 men. What it must mean to the weakest can readily be imagined. What is 
 asked for by the postmen is that the attendances shall not be more than 
 two. In speaking of split duties, the Medical Officer of the Department 
 condemned them in the strongest terms ; what, then, must be the strain upon 
 men who have to make three, four, and five attendances a day, and who 
 have all kinds of weather to contend with in performing their duties? In 
 asking that two attendances shall be the limit, I may say that this question 
 is a burning one in a large number of offices throughout London, where 
 the men are anxiously looking forward to these two attendances being 
 carried into effect, and that these attendances be within the 12 hours. I 
 may add that at the second largest office in London, viz., W.D.O., a scheme 
 was submitted b^' the men embracing an entire two-attendance duty, Init 
 I regi'et to say nothing has been heard of it from the Department, now 
 eight months past. There are offices enjoying this privilege, and there can 
 be no just reason why the whole of London should not have the same. 
 Gentlemen, I now leave this in your hands, feeling sure your decision in this 
 matter will be in favour of less attendances than are in force at the present 
 time. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : A previous witness compared postmen's duties with those 
 of policemen. Yon know the latter have two duties? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I do not think this is a very fair comparison for postmen. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : A postman has not to figjit for his life three times a 
 week? 
 
 A, No, sir; but he Ins to figl \ for health, because he is on both early
 
 Hours of Duty — Heavy Winter Work. 50 
 
 duty and late duty ; lie may get drenched through, he gets home late, and 
 this is repeated day after day. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : A constable has also to do that. A ijostman is not very 
 often hit on the head with a brick. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am very glad to say he is not. The la.st witness, in 
 speaking on the question of leave, did not speak on behalf of London ; he 
 did not understand our system. The allowaace off duty is always left in 
 the hands of the overseers of the various ofSces, and they have been in the 
 habit of giving the leave if they thought the m.en really wanted to be let 
 off, but now the Department has laid down a very .stringent rule that a 
 man shall not be absent from duty more than three times in one month, 
 altliough the absence may refer to only one collection in the day. I have 
 known men in my office get off their first duty in the morning simply m 
 order that they might secui-e an extra hour in bed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is not the rule this, that a man shall not be off duty more 
 than three times in one month without showing good cause for his desire 
 to be off duty. Have you not left out those word.s? 
 
 A. I think the rule reads "without special application to the Postmaster." 
 
 Q. But the overseer has the power without reference to the Postm.aster 
 to let the man off not more than three times in a month. Do you not tliink 
 that power is very liberal? 
 
 A. It may be liberal to a certain extent, and it has not been encroached 
 upon. Tlie men look upon the rule as an unfair interference. During the 
 winter months tliey like to get an additional rest. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any case where an application of that kind was unfairly 
 ref u.sed ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 The Chairman : Tlie last witness asked that the Department should lay 
 down strict rules by which the Postmaster should be guided in regard to 
 this question. It appears that in London the Department have laid down 
 a rule, and you object to it. You thinlv that this is a matter which should 
 be left entirely to the overseer's discretion? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the men are jjlaced entirely in the hands of tlie overseers, 
 and I have never heard of a case in which advantage has been taken 
 unfairly. During the winter months the men ought to get the benefit 
 of additional rest, and I have not the least doubt tliat when the duties are 
 better it will not be thought so much of. There can be no objection to leave 
 the matter in the hands of the overseers. 
 
 Q. But is not the present rule infinitely fairer? Wa,s it not a fact that 
 imder the old rule some of the overseers dealt laxly witli tliese cases, and 
 others were much more strict? 
 
 A. No, sir. not within my knowledge ; and, even if such a state of 
 things existed, it should be remembered that the overseer.s are in the hands 
 of the Department just the same as the men. 
 
 HEAVY WINTER WORK. 
 
 This is the next question that I have to place before you. I want to 
 point out the great difference of the work in the winter, it being very much 
 heavier, while the late arrivals of the carts and trains, caused by the severe 
 weather, snow, fog, etc., is the mearus of the postmen getting out on their 
 deliveries later. That, taken with the very bad and slippery conditions of 
 the roads, pavements, and steps, is often the cause of the men working 
 one and two hours over their time every day. Although this is clearly 
 shown in books kept for that purpose, the men are told they will get nothing 
 for protracted duties, meaning, in other words, " We know you work over 
 your time, but wo will not pay you for it." I think that a previous witness 
 supported that view ; I believe you asked him the question. Tlie reason 
 for bringing this matter forward is this — that tlie Department have thouglit 
 fit to bring in a strong order that nothing shall be allowed for protracted
 
 60 D. S. Boston, Kentish Town. 
 
 T 
 
 duties. We contend that is very unfair. Some few years ago the men 
 received payment for protracted duty in consequence of the very severe 
 •weather — when a very heavy fall of snow lasted longer than usual — but the 
 Department have since thought the practice of that year was a mistake, 
 and I am sorry to say they went so far as to send notices this Christmas 
 stating that no allowances would be given for the New Year's protracted 
 duties, the Department knowing well that it is impossible for the men to 
 fmish their deliveries in anything like their proi)er time. The excuse that is 
 offered by the Department is that the expenses must be cut down ; but, 
 gentlemen, is it honest, is it just, that knowing these men are compelled to 
 work hours over their time, yet refuse to pay them? 
 
 The Chairman : Are not extra men put on at these times ? 
 A. They have laeen put on until this year, but not this year. But even 
 when it has been done in previous years, overtime has had to be worked. 
 Perhaps it will be said that the men have been paid, so I had better tell 
 you some men were paid : the iiostmen received 6d. for the night delivery 
 on New Year's Eve, and 6d. for New Year's Morning General Post. This 
 was the only allowance made. It can clearly be shown that men worked 
 two and three hours over their time, and only received 6d. for it ; and 
 when speaking about it. they are told tliey will receive nothing for the 
 overtime done. I have here a few instances of where payment of the 6d. 
 in question was made, and where nothing was granted for the overtime done, 
 as stated before as being clearly shown in the book. I will take the case 
 of my own office, and I can show that this applied to the whole of the 
 N.W. District, and, I think with two exceptions, to the District Office 
 itself. Whether it applied to other districts I am unable to say. This state- 
 ment shows that the men worked from one to three hours and received 
 nothing for it. while others worked the same number of hours and received 
 6d. for it. This applies to the established class as well as to the aux- 
 iliaries. The auxiliary class work in the morning two hours' overtime on 
 the first post, and received 6d. for it. that being less by 6d. than the sum 
 they should have received. This applies to the whole class in the N.W. 
 District of London. Whetlier other districts suffered in the same way I 
 am not in a position to say. but I am inclined to think they did, or if not, 
 this system is the beginning of a most unfair and unjust system that they 
 liave in their minds to adopt in the futui'e. I don't know what your 
 opinion may be on this subject, gentlemen, but I myself caimot think that 
 the Postmaster-General wishes that the men shall do the exce.ss of the 
 work which he knows must be done in heavy seasons like the New Year, 
 and receive nothing for it ; that surely cannot be the way in which the 
 Postmaster-General intends the expenses to be cut down. In concluding, 
 gentlemen, the question of the heavy winter work — I would only ask you 
 to kindly look fully into tliis question, more especially the New Year's 
 system of paying the postmen. The men are looking anxiously forward 
 to get the payment they are entitliid to. and I wish respectfully to impress 
 on your min(ls t!iat all the postmen ask for is that tliey be paid for the 
 work they hone.stly perforin over these eight hours. I may also add that 
 it goe-s to show that the duties of a postman .should be estimated imder 
 eight hours in order to allow for the expansion caused by some of these 
 circumstcinces. I think, my lord. I heard a question put to the last witness 
 t>') tlie effect that if these men liad applied for overtime would tliey not 
 have been paid for it? Now, I can show that in tliis particular case the 
 claim was made out for these men and sent to the Postmaster, but that 
 it cajne Vwck witli the amount scratched out, and 6d. substituted for from one 
 to three hours' overtijne. I think that does away with the idea that the 
 Department do pay when overtime pay is applied for. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But they were paid 6d. ? 
 
 A. Yes ; for from one to three hours' work. The men are entitled to 
 considerably more than that. I cannot understand why the Department 
 only jmid 6d. It is quite a new idea to me.
 
 Hours of Duty — Extra Work. 61 
 
 Q. I presume the reason was the Department does not pay ordinary 
 overtime to postmen. It is the usual rule only to pay for excessive over- 
 time. As one witness said, if the Department undertook to pay overtime 
 to postmen it is feared that that would encourage dawdling? 
 
 A. That does not apply to ordinary overtime. 
 
 Q. No, not ordinary, but for excessive — such as Christmas Day, is it not 
 usual to pay for that? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But on this occasion 6d. was allowed for an exceptionally heavy 
 delivery ? 
 
 A. Only 6d. was allowed for the last delivery at night, and 6d. for the 
 delivery in the morning, and on each occasion the time sheets showed that 
 these men worked from one to three hours' overtime. As a fact, the 
 first postmen did not finish till 10.15 or 10.30, insteatl of 8.30. The estab- 
 lished men, if they had been yiaid pro rota Avith their wages, should have 
 received considerably more for overtime, but they did not get it. 
 
 The Chairman : At what rate do you claim they should be paid ? 
 
 A. In many cases it would rank from 6d. to 9d. Under Mr. Raikes's 
 scheme a rule was laid down that the men should be paid pro rata — so 
 much an hour according to their rate of wages. Previously to that, a 
 fixed sum was laid down, and it was not allowed to be exceeded. Since 
 the rule came out, the practice has been as far as possible to put the junior 
 men on overtime, so that the benefit seldom reaches the senior men, and 
 the Department pays less now than it used to. 
 
 CIRCUT^ARS. 
 
 The next question that I have to place before you is that of the circulars. 
 The last few years the circulars have become a very great grievance to the 
 postmen, as they are compelled to take them out with their ordinary work, 
 instead of being sent out specially. This entails a large amount of extra 
 work for the postmen, as when a large number of circulars come to the 
 office they are worked out with the deliveries. The result of this system 
 is that the postmen have to take them to work out on two and three 
 deliveries a day, thus compelling them to work over their time each 
 delivery, and, in addition, delaying the public's imj^ortant coiTespondence 
 tliroughout the day, and also delaying the circulars as well — sometimes 
 until the next day. Each time a man takes out circulars on his delivery 
 it makes him later. If a large number of circulars came in thi.s afternoon 
 to be worked off, they would not lie all delivered at once, but some would 
 be left over for to-morrow. That may be a considerable saving to the 
 Department, but it is a considerable loss to the postman. 
 
 The Chairman: 'Why? 
 
 A. Because he has to do it for nothing, instead of getting a special 
 delivery. It is asked that, as tliL-* is a sj^ecial work apart from letters, 
 they be sent out as such, or, if the postmen be compelled to take them out. 
 they may do them after they have done their ordinary woi'k, and be paid 
 for them. It may be said that some specials are sent out, but, gentlemen, 
 I assure you since the great question of cutting down exj>ense.s has been 
 before the officials, a special is a very rare occurrence. Large firms when 
 they have a rush of work pay their workmen for the overtime done ; it 
 is only just and fair that the Post Office should do the same. As an instance 
 to show that this is looked upon as extra work, I may tell you that when 
 a postman is tested on his delivery he is not allowed to take out circulars. 
 Again, if a postman raises the question he is working over eight hours, 
 the Department test him, and should it hap]>en that there are circulars on 
 that special delivery, lie is not allowed to take them out. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mean heavy circulars. He would take out the 
 ordinary amount, but not large trade circulars? 
 
 A. Not large trade circulars such as " Warner's Safe Cure " or " Mother 
 Siegel's." He would not be allowed to take them out if he were going
 
 62 D. S. Boston, Kentish Town, 
 
 to be tested. Therefore the Department must look upon it in the light of 
 extra work, and we ask to be paid for it as such. This clearly shows that 
 the Department consider it extra work apart from the ordinary ; that being 
 so, I hope, gentlemen, you will sf3 your way clear to advise payment on 
 special delivery for the same, at the pro rata rate of wage, and not for 
 the cutting down rate that is now paid to the postmen in those instances 
 where a special delivery is done. I might qualify my statement by saying 
 there have been instances where established postmen took these out 
 specially and only got a shilling for it. A special delivery constitutes two 
 hours, and perhaps the wages of the postman would amount to Is. 4d. or 
 Is. 6d., but he would be told lie would only get a shilling for this special 
 delivery, and, rather than take the circulars out for nothing with his ordinary 
 deliveries, he would accept the shilling. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not rather difficult to draw a sharp dividing liae 
 as to what is a circular and what is not? 
 
 A. Not in the ordinary sense. We do not suggest that every circular 
 commg from various sources should be dealt with in this manner. The men 
 take them out in the ordinary way ; but when we have large batches of 
 circulars come in from firms like Jones and Crisp, of Holloway; Marshall 
 and Snelgrove, Peter Robinson, "Warner's Safe Cure," and "Mother 
 Siegel's," we contend that they are sufficient for special delivery, and should 
 be treated accordingly. To pass them through the ordinary delivery inflicts 
 a great hardship on the men, especially as most of them are sent in during 
 the winter time. In the winter months there is a large rush of circulars from 
 drapers and fancy stationers, especially in the three weeks or month before 
 Christmas. The men are asked to take these out on their ordinary deliveries, 
 and, if they are compelled to do so, it causes a great deal of friction witli 
 tho overseers. Tlie Department says that a man may be compelled to take 
 out 60 circulars with any delivery. Of course the men grumble if they 
 have to do that when they know that there are sufficient circulars for a 
 special delivery. It is a serious grievance in every way. especially when 
 these circulars are mixed up with the letter.'? for the delivery. The letters 
 are apt to get in l>etween the circulars, and the men have to do all the 
 sorting of the circulars, no matter how many there may be. They are then 
 divided into batches, and the delivery is spread over perhaps for a week. 
 All this entails a lot of extra work on the part of the postmen. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But sometimes a m.an gets a shilling for taking them out? 
 
 A. Yes ; but only sometimes. 
 
 Q.-Is that according to any fixed rule? 
 
 A. No ; I do not think it is according to any fixed rule. At one time 
 when a batch of circulars came in the overseer would specially engage a 
 number of men to take the whole lot out at once, and thus clear them off. 
 
 The Chairman : The postmen would do that in addition to their ordinary 
 work then? 
 
 A. Yes. Supposing a man finished his ordinary delivery by 4 o'clock, 
 the overseer would tell him to take these circulars out, and would add. 
 " I shall only allow you a shilling for it." The man would do them after 
 he had done his ordinary work. He would tie them up in bundles, and 
 deliver after he had finished delivering his letters. He would have to 
 start back again to deliver tlie circulars. The object would be not to delay 
 the ordinary delivery. 
 
 The Chairman : You mean that he takes them out, and, after the delivery 
 of the ordinary letters, he works back again? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; if the bag is not too cumbersome. The men would rather 
 do this for a shilling than get nothing for it ; but they contend that it is 
 not enough, and that, according to the rule laid down by the Department, 
 they ought to receive an allowance pro rata with their wages for the time 
 occupied in their delivery, more especially as some men are getting full pay 
 for overtime.
 
 H. M. WILSON, Hampstead S.O. 
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, February 10, 1896. 
 Henry Mark Wilson next gave evidence as follows: — 
 
 The Chairman: You are an auxiliary postman at Hampstead, I believe? 
 
 A. Well, I am in rather a transition stage just at present. I joined the 
 Service 17 years ago as an auxiliary, and last year, in July, I received my 
 appointment to the established class, and commenced with an initial wage 
 of 24s. a week in consideration of the services I had rendered. Of course, 
 I am serving two years' probation at the present time, in the same way as 
 a lad would who is just coming into the Service. 
 
 Q. You had been 16 years an auxiliary before you were appointed? 
 
 A. 16^ years. 
 
 Q. At what rate were you paid as an auxiliary? 
 
 A. At different rates at different times. I was receiving as an auxiliary, 
 at the time I was appointed on the staff, 28s. 6d. a week, with a week's 
 holiday during the year, and boot allowance. That was because I was doing 
 full time as an auxiliary. That arrangement came into force imder Mr. 
 Raikes's scheme ; he made a provision to the effect that where an auxiliary 
 was doing full-time duty he should receive a week's holiday during the year 
 without loss of pay, and, in addition, boot allowance. 
 
 Q. What was the boot allowance? 
 
 A. A guinea a year. 
 
 Q. Then you absolutely lost bj'' gomg on as an established postman in 
 regard to your present rate of pay? 
 
 A. Practically speaking, at the present time I am losing 4s. 6d. a week. 
 
 Q. But then you have the prospect of a rise, as well as pension, and all 
 that sort of thing? 
 
 A. Just so ; but I may say that the complaint always put forward on 
 the part of an auxiliary postmen is that the time they serve in that capacity 
 is not acknowledged by the Department. Therefore, if it had involved an 
 even greater loss of pay, I could not consistently have refused my appoint- 
 ment to the establishment when it practically complied with my own request. 
 
 Q. Did you have uniform as an auxiliary? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How many hours a day did you work as an auxiliary ? 
 
 A. My duties were to start with the 3 a.m. collection, and then I had 
 a continuous duty until I finished the General Post duty at 8.30 o'clock. 
 Then I had the 10 minutes t-o 10 collection, which lasted until a quarter 
 to 11 ; and finally I had the last deliverv at night, which occupied me from 
 8 till 10. 
 
 The Chairman : At what time did you start again? 
 
 A. With the three o'clock collection in the morning. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: And then you were on from 3 till 8.30? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And again from 9.50 till 10.45? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; practically an hour,
 
 64 H. M. Wilson, Harapstead S.O. 
 
 Q. And then again on the 8 p.m. delivery until 10 at night? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You were -n-orking about 8^ hours a day? 
 
 A. Just about that, sir. I did not get go much for that duty until Mr. 
 Raikes's revision came in, and under that I got 3s. a week addition. 
 
 Q. How long were you doing that duty? 
 
 A. I can hardly say how long, but it would be eight or nine years. 
 
 The Chairman : Are you doing that duty now ? 
 
 A. No ; they have taken off the last delivery. 
 
 Q. Then you are doing from 3 to 8.30, and from 9.50 to 10.45; is that 
 your duty? 
 
 A. Yes ; and I go right on as a rule. 
 
 ^Ir. Walpole : Then you have only 6^ hours' duty? 
 
 A. Yes ; but you must take into consideration it is night work. 
 
 The Cliairman : You practically have a continued duty from 3 to 10.45? 
 
 A. I do not complain of my duty ; I am highly satisfied with it. I wish 
 every man had the same. I do not complain about my duty in the least 
 now. Of course, having been an auxiliary for so many years, the auxiliaries 
 of London have placed their case in my hands, and I am fighting for them 
 now. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : With regard to the interval between 8.30 and 9.50 : the 
 Department pays for that time, does it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; it just gives me time for breakfast. 
 
 Q. But the Department pays for it? 
 
 A. Yes ; according to the rate they are paying me now. 
 
 Q. When you were first appointed auxiliary, did you do any work out- 
 side the Departmental work? 
 
 A. Yes ; when I was first appointed I only had a 12s. 6d. duty. I did 
 the quarter to 1 collection for that (that was in the middle of the day), 
 then I also did the 4 p.m. and 8 p.m. deliveries. 
 
 Q. What are you besides? 
 
 A. I am an engraver by trade. 
 
 Q. Are you still an engraver? 
 
 A. Yes ; when I can get it to do, which is very seldom. My trade is a 
 luxury, and luxuries are things which always suffer first and foremost. 
 It is only wealthy people who can afford to have engraving done. I have 
 had to suffer in that way during the time I was an auxiliary — ^I found the 
 trade going off. I have done a great deal of work for Hampstead Vestry, 
 and that is how I filled up my spare tim3 in order to get a decent living. 
 
 The Chairman : Proceed with your statement, please. 
 
 Witness : I wish to submit the case of the London auxiliary postmen. 
 First, I will deal with its importance. In approaching tlie auxiliarj^ ques- 
 tion, we feel that it is one of the utmost importance both to the Depart- 
 ment and to the employees, as it is the sj^here from which many charges of 
 sweating are brought against the Department ; therefore, we feel comj^elled 
 to emphasise the principle enunciated in our " National Petition " — " That 
 the terms of service of this deserving class are not creditable to any Govern- 
 ment, and we are convinced that to do them anything like justice they 
 should immediately be added to tlie established force at an initial wage 
 according to their length of service." In confirmation of that statement 
 perhaps I may be allowed to read an extract from the current number of 
 "Truth," as I should like to show that a similar feeling to that existing 
 in the Department is. if we take "Truth" as an exponent of public opinion — 
 (laughter) — also existent among the public: — "The position of these aux- 
 iliary men, both in town and rural districts, is a disgrace to the Department. 
 Large numbers of them liave to spend tlie best part of their lives at their 
 present work, and have grown old in the public service, yet the very 
 telegra])h l)oys who are taken on m the manner alx)ve described, will, in a
 
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 London Auxiliaries' Case. 65 
 
 very short time, pass over the heads of the auxiliary men who are now 
 engaged in teaching them. It may be right to classify men according to 
 the age at which they join the Service, but to" first lay down an age for 
 joining, and then te take on at an older age large numbers'. jof men who 
 are prematurely excluded from obtaining a footing on the establishedv^rvice 
 is as unjust as it is stupid." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Many of these auxiliaries are men like yourself, engaged 
 in other trades, are they not? 
 
 A. Granted, sir. 
 
 Q. And do not wish to be taken on as estublished men? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they do. 
 
 Q. You think there is a great competition among men engaged in other 
 w ork to take service under the Department ? 
 
 A. I must qualify that. I will deal with that in its proper course. 
 
 Q. But is it not a fact that these men are engaged in other trades? 
 
 A. Yes ; wliere they are able to get the work to do. 
 
 Q. But is it not the rule that they must be able to? 
 
 A. It is the rule, and I wish to emphasise this very emphatically. I 
 shall show later on how very unjustly the men are dealt with by the 
 De^Kirtment on that head. The Postmaster-General (the late Right Hon. 
 H. C Raikes) in his reply to our "National Petition," and also in answer 
 to questions on t!:e subject in tiie House of Commons, said that he much 
 preferred, where the circumst.'inces a<lniitted of it, that men .should be 
 employed wlio, giving their whole time to the Service, are borne upon the 
 establishment, and received the established rate of wages and consequent 
 advantages ; but with the most scrupulous care in adjusting the work, 
 some duties would always remain which could not by themselves, or in 
 combination with others, l>e constituted whole-time duties. While readily 
 admitting that the Postmaster-General was expressing his candid opinion 
 on this point, and with every desire to carry it into effect, we submit 
 this theory is not carried intfl practice to the extent that it could be, 
 and that the pioportion of auxiliaries in comparison to the established class 
 is not governed so much by the (iitticulty of arranging full-time duties for 
 them as by the fact tiiafc auxiliary lal)our is cheafX'r and more atlvantageous 
 to the Department on the score of economy, as the saving effected in com- 
 parison to an establisiied force (in the shape of pension, sick pay, holidays, 
 etc.) is very consideral>le. I have chosen Hampstead .simply because I can 
 Sfieak from personal experience. It is the office I have l)een at all the 
 time I have been in the Servic. In proof of this contention, at one of the 
 largest residential suburbs of London — viz., Hampste^ul — the staff there 
 con.sists of 112 men, only 39 (or one-third) of whom belong to the established 
 class, the remaining two-thirds being auxiliaries, a clear proof that no 
 attempt is here made to carry the Postmaster-General's asserted preference 
 into force, as it must readily be admitted that ample scope is afforded for 
 a considera})le proportion of these men to be supplied with full-time duties, 
 and this is continued in spite of the protests of the staff and the promise, 
 extending nearly two years backward, that the duties should be revised. 
 This system is more or less prevalent throughout London. I have here a list 
 of the duties, which T shall be very pleased to hand in. It will show how 
 at Hampstead the duties have been extended, and what occurs at Hampstead 
 takes place at many other offices as well. I shall have to refer to these 
 in the course of my statement, and I would like here, if I may be allowed 
 to do so, to introduce another point. The last witness was asked whether 
 it was not a fact that Hampstead was under a revision. I believe it is a 
 fact, but unfortunately the revision has been pending six or seven years, 
 and it seems to be no nearer reaching the climax than at the first start. 
 That is why we take this point so very strong. A promise has been made 
 orer and over again tluit if the men asked to have their duties revised, it 
 should be done. But when these applications are made the reply always is
 
 (56 II. M. Wilson, ll.uiijK-tfad. 
 
 that the revision is pending, and, I rejwat, it is still pending, and is no 
 nearer fruition as yet. While readily admitting there is considerable diffi- 
 culty in the total abolition of the auxiliary class, we cannot allow that it is 
 impossible, because in important centre.9 like the E.C. in London, at 
 Liverpool, and Newcastle, there are no auxiliary jjostmen employed, there- 
 fore what is possible in such important commercial localities as the above- 
 mentioned is also possible elsewhere. 
 
 TERMS OF SERVICE NOT UNDERSTOOD. 
 
 Another statement of the late Right Hon. H. C. Raikes, in reply to a 
 petition from the London auxiliary postmen, in August, 1887, was — " That 
 the applications for em})loyinent under existing conditions are exceedingly 
 numerous." This statement we must respectfully protest against, for, as 
 a matter of fact, the existing terms are not made clearly understandable 
 to the applicants, and this fact is most -tterly complained about, more 
 especially by the army reserve men, to whom the Postal Service has been 
 recently thrown open, who contend they are inveigled into the Service under 
 a false impression. I am informed, my lord, with regard to the army reserve 
 men, they all contend that the conditions are not explicitly laid down, 
 and that the offer to them to come into the Post OfBce, made to them 
 while they are still in tlie army, has not been exijlicitly carried out. They 
 thought they would be put on the estal)lished class. It is implied in a 
 certain way. They are given to understand that they are going into a 
 Government Department, and that, by good conduct and merit, they will 
 1)8 enabled to rise in the same way as they can in the army. I may also 
 quote my own case in proof of the statement that the terms are not very 
 clearly understandable. I was educated at the Duke of York's Military School, 
 at Chelsea, and when I produced my testimonial from that school to Mr. 
 Oakshott, the superintendent of the N.W. District at that time, he made 
 the remark, "You are quite aware what discipline is?" I replied "Yes, I 
 am thoroughly aware." Then he said, "You know it will be the .same here 
 as where you have come from, and where you have l>een educated : b}' merit, 
 ability, and general good conduct you will be able to get along." I was 
 tliree months in the Service before I actually knew that I was at a stagnant 
 wage. I found it out })y reading the Rule Book. I liappened to make a 
 remark to one man, " Wh.en does the time for a rise of salary date from?" 
 He replied, " You will never get a rise so long as you are here." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But when you were appointed an auxiliary, did you not sign 
 a form? 
 
 A. I signed several papers. 
 
 Q. Do not all auxiliaries sign forms setting fortli the conditions of em- 
 ployment? 
 
 A. I have no recollection of signing one. 
 
 Q. Are 3'ou aware that auxiliaries now have to sign them? 
 
 A. I believe there is a form that has to be signed. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the form is? Does it not state that "I am fully 
 avare I have been appointed at such-and-such wages, and that no advantage 
 or paj'ment other than thosa wages attaches to the appointment ; that my 
 services may be discontinued at any moment, and that when they are dis- 
 continued, whether after a long or a short period, I have no claim for the 
 payment of compensation, gi'atuity, or pension. I fully understand the 
 character of these terms, and annex my name thereto." Is it possible to 
 make terms and conditions more intelligible than that? 
 
 A. I admit that that is rather more explicit than what I W"as told when I 
 entered the Service. I had no such paper. 
 
 Q. You say we do not put fairly before the men the conditions of the 
 employment. Now, could they be put more fairly? 
 
 I
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 67 
 
 A. If the men are allowed to read that paper in the first place, before they 
 sign, it is explicit. 
 
 Q. And they sign it? 
 
 A. Well, there are a number of rules and regulations in the Service which 
 are laid down, but which are not always carried into effect. We are 
 desirous that the Postal Service should be put upon all fours with the other 
 public services as regards the position of these men — that is, in the army, 
 navy, or police. 
 
 ASSIMILATION TO OTHER PUBLIC SERVICES. 
 
 When a recruit enters either of the above services, he enters upon the 
 same conditions as every other man in the same service, and knows that by 
 merit, ability, and good conduct the higher grades are open to him, and 
 not as the condition of those men who enter the Postal Service as aux- 
 iliaries, who are almo.st in a condition of stagnation as regards promotion 
 to any higher rank ; in fact, in numerous cases, men after 20 to 28 years' 
 faithful ami meritorious service are in a far worse financial position than they 
 were upon their entry into the Service, and there have been instances where 
 these men have been turned off without any provision whatever, for no other 
 offence but old age (not decrepitude) ; and it lias been only by appealing to 
 a generous public that they have been saved from ending their days in 
 the workhouse — a state of things not at all creditable to a Governmental 
 Department. In confirmation of this stntsment, sir, I may say that a man 
 at my own office, whose name was Joseph Noyes (he has been dead now 
 for nearly 18 months) was thus dismissed, after having been an auxiliary, I 
 believe, for about 25 years. During the greater part of that long auxiliary 
 duty he had to perform what are termed A class duties at Belsize Park, 
 which walk is one of the most aristocratic and important in Hampstead 
 Parish. He had to do the A duties, which are, as a rule, allocated to 
 established men. He was responsible for charges, etc., and after taking 
 on his shoulders that duty, he did the General Post delivery in the morn- 
 ing from 6.30 to 8.30, and then he did tlie 2.40 collection in the afternoon. 
 Next he took out the 4 o'clock delivery, which last/cd until after 6 o'clock, 
 a,s Belsize Park is a verj^ heavy walk. Then he had the 8 o'clock delivery 
 at night, which lasted until after 10, and m many instances until 11. I 
 have myself worked on it many times until 11. All this man received 
 for these important duties during all tliese years was 14s. 6d. a week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you say he did this until a year and a half ago? 
 
 A. No, sir ; he died about a year and a half ago. His wages were 
 reduced when a revision took place at Hampstead, and some of the duties 
 were taken off. He was given the first delivery in the morning and the last 
 at night, and his wages fell to 12s. This was a fair rate of pay for the 
 duty, but the point is that, after many years' service this man got into a 
 worse financial condition than when he first entered. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : This is not an existing grievance. Do you now know any case 
 in which an auxiliary working such a number of hours is paid anything 
 like so small a wage as 14s. 6d. ? 
 
 A. I think I could give evidence of some cases. I have them tabulated 
 here, and I shall be able to produce them presently when I speak on tlie 
 rate of wages. 
 
 Q. London cases? 
 
 A. Yes ; and when this man reached his sixtieth year — the limit at 
 which a man is considered caj)able of doing delivery duty — lie had to leave, 
 and there would have been nothing for liim if it had not been for a sub- 
 scription got up by the inhabitants of Hampstead, who raised something 
 like £200, which lasted just exactly until his death. Had it not been for
 
 68 H. M. Wilson, Hampstead. 
 
 that lie would have had to go into the workhouse after having given 25 
 years' faithful service to the Government. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by having to leave? 
 
 A. He was told he must resign his position as auxiliarj' Ijecause he was 
 60 years of age. 
 
 Q. Who told him that? 
 
 A. The order was given to him at Hampstead that he must resign his 
 position. Another man who had been an est;iblished postman, but then 
 performed auxiliary duty in order to make up the small amount of pension 
 he got to something like a living wage, was told the same thing. They 
 were both 60 years of age, and both had to resitrn solely on account of their 
 agj being 60, and not because they were incapable of doing the work. The 
 men did their work, and no complaint was made against them. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I cannot understand i'-. 
 
 A. It is a fact, I assure you. I do not wish to mislead the Committee. 
 
 Q. Wliat was the name of the second man? 
 
 A. The name of the second man, who was a pensioned postman, was 
 Whickers. Both men are dead now. Both have died since. 
 
 Q. How long ago did this hanpen? 
 
 A. Not more than three vears ago. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Was Noyes not put on half-time when he got to l)e 
 60 years old? 
 
 A. No, sir : he was discliarged. 
 
 Q. Tlien when was he put on shorter time? 
 
 A. That was when the revision took place a few years previously. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think Whickers was not very efficient at that time, was he? 
 
 A. Well, he was getting on that way, but he contended that he was 
 capable of doing a small duty. 
 
 Q. He was a pensioned man and past work? 
 
 A. He had a very small pension. 
 
 Q. But was he not past work? 
 
 A. I should not like to say for certain. He did his work. 
 
 Q. Were not .some people very high in the Post Office interested in 
 him, so that he had every chance of his case being thoroughly considered? 
 
 A. I believe he had considerable interest ainong the high officials in the 
 Post Office. I am not quoting his case as a hardship, but only as showing 
 that the man did have to leave at 60 years of age. It fortifies Noyes' case. 
 I will call attention to the case of another man — Burridge — in the N.W.D. 
 Office. That man has done 29 vears as an auxiliary postman, and l)efore 
 the revision took place in the N.W.D. Office, three or four j'ears ago — I 
 would not like to say for certain the number of ye.irs — ^he was having 
 altogether 22s. 6d. a week, but when the revision came about his duties 
 were reduced, and he is only taking 15s. 6d. now. That is the reward he 
 has got for 29 years' good and faitliful service. 
 
 The Chairman : He is doing less duty, is he not? 
 
 A. Yes ; but his age is too great to tempt him to find other employment. 
 This man was made use of by the N.W.D. Office for everv duty it was 
 possible for a postman to do. He wa.s compet.ent to do any duty that could 
 hi placed upon him in the office. He could be put on any walk at a 
 moment's notice, and he would do it just as thoroughly as the man per- 
 manently on it. Tliat man's services could be utilised at any time. He was 
 Cctlled on to do sick duty or anything of that sort : when there was a 
 presstire in the office they alway.s turned to him. and he always gave great 
 satisfaction, and he put his time at the disposal of the Department. Many 
 auxiliaries find it better to thus make themselves servicKible to the Depart- 
 ment, and consequentlv give up other work. Therefore they have to rely 
 on the Dei>artnicnt. When they are getting well on in years it is impos^ 
 Bible for a man to save anything on such wages as are paid.
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 69 
 
 The Chairman : Wliat is his age now ? 
 
 A. Not quite 60. He is getting close on it. 
 
 Q. Had lie any trade? 
 
 A. I believe he was a bootmaker. I am not quite positive as to that, 
 but I am certiin lie had some other calling ; what it was I cannot possibly 
 say. 
 
 Mr. Smith : As a matter of fact, has he not gone back to his trade since 
 his duties were reduced? 
 
 A. He has not been able to. 
 
 Q. Does he, as a matter of fact, live on his reduced pay? 
 
 A. As far as he possibly can. He says he is only existing. 
 
 Q. I am not asking whether he lives well or not ; but has he to live 
 on that pay? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is a positive fact. I am not quite certain whether he 
 entered under the age at which it is possible to get on the establishment. 
 I have two or three other cases here. There is that of a man named 
 Bristow, of Kentish Town. He has done 24 years' service, and he was 19 
 when he entered it. When the Kentish Town revision took place some time 
 agD his wages were reduced from £1 6s. 6d. to 15s. Here is a man entirely 
 eligible to go on the establishment. He was only 19 when he entered 
 the Service, and has been in it 24 years, and after all that time his wages 
 are reduced. It cannot be said it is done on account of old age or inability 
 to do the work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What is his name? 
 
 A. Bristow, of Kentish Town. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is it a comon pi'actice for an auxiliary to drop other employ- 
 ment and practically give continuous service to the Department? 
 
 A. Where a man sees a fair opportunity to be of use to the Department 
 it is a custom prevalent in all offices in London to do so. 
 
 Mr. Smith : It is a risky thing to do. 
 
 A. At the same time you must take this fact into consideration, that 
 although these men are supposed to have other employment, practically 
 speaking it is difficult to get it, as the competition is so great. 
 
 Q. Then how do they get on? 
 
 A. Well, some who have no fixed trade pick up an additional revenue 
 in the way of window-cleaning ; but tliis is a very prccariou.s thing. They 
 have to Imnt it up, and if a duty crops up in the office — if there is a va«incy 
 for a certain time and a certainty of pay — they prefer to tike it. What 
 we are comj)laining about is that these older men who have been so many 
 years in the Service are treated in the way I have described. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I see the point of your complaint. What I want to know 
 is whether it is possible tliat a man drops entirely out of his original trade 
 and becomes solely dependent on the Department? 
 
 A. If you will kindly reserve that question till a little later on I will deal 
 with that point. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you happen to know if Bristow would have taken a 
 place on the establishment if it had been offered to him? 
 
 A. Not at the initial wage of 18s. 
 
 Q. He would prefer auxiliary duty at 15.5. to established duty at 18s. ? 
 
 A. Certainly ; because if he takes an appointment on the staff at 18s. the 
 Department would require the whole of his time. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am only asking the f[uestion. 
 
 Witness : He is quite willing to take an appointment on the establish- 
 ment if the Department will take into recognition his number of years' 
 service, and give him an initial wage somewhat in accordance with it. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do I miderstand you to say that this man has been 
 unable to get anything to do since? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I did not say he was unable to get anything to do, but
 
 70 H. M. Wilson, Hampstead. 
 
 that lie does not know where to look for anything. On account of the age 
 he has reached, he thinks it would be impracticable for him to seek employ- 
 ment in any other way. 
 
 Q Still he would rather have 15s. than 18s.? 
 
 A. No, sir ; you are mixing two men up. The man who would rather 
 have 15s. as an auxiliary tlian 18s. as an established postman is Bristow. 
 Burridge is the man who thinks he is too old to get other employment. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Well, either you or I have been mixing the two men 
 up. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness : I might say the same in my own case. I have been offered an 
 appointment on the staff 10 or 12 times of my period of ser\'ice, but I could 
 not take it on the terms of 18.s. a week. 1 am a married man with a 
 family dependent upon me, and I certainly could not take it upon myself 
 to give up the whole time at my disposal to the Department for 18s. It 
 would be utterly impossible to keep a wife an . family on that and remain 
 an honest man. I take it that making such an offer at all to a man with a 
 wife and family is nothing more nor less than putting a premium on dis- 
 honesty. A man must live, and he will not see his wife and children starve. 
 I think it is an unfair position m v.hich to put a man after he has done a 
 number of years' service, for the Department to ask to be allowed to avail 
 itself of the whole of a man's time for the small sum of 18s. a week. I 
 may point out very emphatically that the Department itself admits that these 
 men are not paid a wage sufficient to keep them above temptation, because 
 it will not allow an auxiliary to do the 7 p.m. collection in London, during 
 wjiich he has to call at the receivers' or branch offices to receive the re- 
 mittances for the day for transmission to the Accountmt Receiver-General. 
 The Department Avill not allow an auxiliary to go on that duty at all, if 
 th-i collection has to l>e niade at a receiver's or branch ofnce. If this is 
 done for any other cause than to keep the men out of ten*jtation because 
 their wages are insufficient, why cannot they do this duty as well as the 
 established postmen, especially Vjearing in mind the fact that he has on his 
 deliveries to deal with valuable registered matter? This property is en- 
 trusted to him just in the same way as it Is to the established postmen. 
 I have another case here — that of a man name- Johnson, in the same office. 
 Ho had done 15 years previously to the same revision, and his wages were 
 reduced from £1 5s. 6d. to 15s. Theu there is the case of a man named 
 Lewis, which is peculiar, and of another man named Beeby, who has had 
 two or three years' more service than Bristow. Tliis man was allowed 
 to retain his full-time duty after the revision, receiving £1 Is. a week 
 wages, boot allowance, and a week's holiday. The other men want to 
 know why they cannot be treated in the same way. Why should the privi- 
 lege be given to one man more than to another? If the Department could 
 work a duty of that description in one instance with very little trouble it 
 might do it in other cases. Surely we are deserving of it after giving all 
 tbe.se years' service. That is a point I wisli to bring strongly before your 
 lordsliip ; l)nt it is a difficult matter to lu-ing out unless I have the particulars 
 of individual cases substsmtiated. 
 
 At this point the Committee adjourned until Thursday, Feb. 13, the 
 witness not having concluded his evidence. 
 
 Westjiin-.ster, Tluirsday, February 13th. 
 
 The Inter-Dcpartmental Committee on Post Office Eskiblishments held 
 its twenty -ciglitli mueting at Westminster on Thursday, Fel)ruary 13tli. 
 tliere being present tlic Right Hon. Lord Tweedmoutli (cliairman), Sir 
 F[anois Mowatt, K.C'.B.. Si>encer \Val|)ole, Ksc)., Llewellyn Smith, Esn,, 
 Sir Arthur GJodiey, and Robert Bruce, Esq. (secretiiry).
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 71 
 
 Henry Mark Wilson was re-called and further exciri)ined : — 
 
 tSir F. Mowatt (who temporarily occupied the chair) : Will you please 
 continue your st.itsnient from where you left off at our last meeting? 
 
 A. I had got as far as the case of the dismissal of a nran at 60 years 
 of age, and where it was only by appealing to the public that he was saved 
 from going to the workhouse. 
 
 Q. I think you were dealing with tha terms of service not being made 
 explicit? 
 
 A. I had gone a little beyond that. 
 
 Q. The next question is stagnation of promotion. 
 
 A. That is the point now, sir. 
 
 Q. I don't want unduly to compress your evidence, bat please recollect 
 that six days were to conclude the evidence of the postmen ; we have already 
 had three days, and we have not got quite so far through as we had hoped. 
 I don't want to stop you saying anything you think necessaiy, but will you 
 kindly bear this in mind? 
 
 A. I will not say anything unneces.^ary, but I hope you will not compress 
 mo on this auxiliary system, because I think that is the most disgraceful 
 point in the whole of" the Postal Service. I would like, if I might be 
 allowed to do so, to make a remark with regard to a document which Mr. 
 Walpole produced here upon my former evidence as to the terms of service 
 not being made explicit to these men. The anny reserve men in jJiii'ticular 
 bitterly complained that they have been beguiled into the Service on some- 
 thing like false pretences, and Mr. Walpole produced a document which I 
 understood him to say each man is called on to sign when engaged, ex- 
 plaining the terms of' the Service. At my office at Hampstead, we have 
 rather an undue proportion of these reserve men. I have made a personal 
 application to each of these men, and each one emphatic;illy denies ever 
 receiving such a paper or signing it on his engagement. ■ They say they 
 never saw such a paper until five month.s ago, when a paper was .sent round 
 to tliem and they liad to sign it; but there was nothing of the kind on 
 tlieir entering the Service. One man goes so far as to .say that he not only 
 had no paper of explanation, but that he was led to understand that, he 
 came into the Service as an auxiliary at i5s. per week, and that at the end 
 of 12 months he would receive an established appointment. That man is 
 still in the Service. 
 
 The Ohairman: Did he say who lie received that promise from? 
 A. He received it, he says, both at the Ijarracks and at the District Office 
 — at the North-Western District Office — where he made his application for 
 employment as an auxiliary. Of course, I told -.m distinctly that I should 
 bring this evidence before the Committee here this morning, and that if he 
 was not prepared to stand by it he should not make the statement. 
 Mr. Walpole : I will look into the facts. 
 
 Witness : The next point to deal with is the remedy. We would suggest, 
 as a remedy for this state of things, that as vacancies occur upon the 
 established "class the preference should be given to men serving as aux- 
 iliaries before any other person, and that their initial wage should be in 
 proportion to their term of auxiliary service ; for instance, if an auxiliary 
 has served three years, he should commence three increments in advance 
 of a new entrant into the Service. In asking for this, we are simply asking 
 for a privilege to be restored to this class which they wore in possession 
 of 31 years ago, for we find by an Official Circular, issued on March 22nd, 
 1866, it was there officially laid down, " There should be three classes of 
 postmen, viz., first class, second class, and a supplementary cla,ss at a fixed 
 wage of 18s. per week, and that all vacancies in the higher grades should 
 be recruited from the ranks of the supplementary class, or, as they are 
 now known, auxiliaries ; and we would further point out that this metliod 
 would meet Dr. Wilson's suggestion of raising the age of entry to the 
 minimum that he advocates, as in most instances those men are above 25
 
 72 H. M. "Wilson, Harapstead. 
 
 years of age, and have given practical proof of their ability to stand the 
 wear and tear of the work of the Department. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Wliat would vou do with the telegraph messenger boys? 
 A. I would introduce the old class of boy sorters that was in existence 
 some, years ago, so that they would be gaining their instruction, and if 
 the boys are kept on to the age advocated— that is, up to 19— they might 
 take turn and turn. I don't consider that even a telegraph messenger, 
 provided he has only a year or two's service, has a right to be put on the 
 establishment before an auxiliary who has sometimes 15 or 16 years' 
 service. Let them take turn and turn about. If the telegraph boy has 
 seniority of service over the auxiliary let him be put on the establishment 
 first, but let the auxiliary have some sort of chance according to his period 
 of service, so that when a vacancy occurs, if his conduct has been satis- 
 factory, he shall be put on the establishment, instead of being left as he often 
 is at present, without any hope. 
 
 The Chairman (Lord Tweedmouth) : Do I understand that no auxiliaries 
 are appointed as postmen? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; there are some appoint-ed, but the cases are very few and far 
 between indeed, in comparison with the number of men taken on the 
 establishment. I can give you instances of men who have done 28 or 29, 
 or even 30 years' service, and, so far as their wages are concerned, they 
 are in a far worse position now than when they first entered the Service. 
 Mr. Walpole: I suppose these are men who have some other employment? 
 A. You may naturally presume that, because all auxiliaries are supposed 
 to have some other employment. 
 
 Q. Many of them would not wish to be put on the establishment? 
 A. Many of them would. 
 Q. JN^ot the whole of them? 
 
 A. I think the majority of them would be only too glad to accept an 
 appointment if they were started at a fair initial wage ; but, of course, 
 an adult who has a wife and family dej)endent on 1dm does not feel in- 
 clined to t;ike an ajipointment at 18s. a week, where the Department would 
 occupy the whole of their time, and he does not care, under such conditions, 
 to give up such supplementar}' employment as he may have. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Will you explain whether the remedy you now 
 suggest is only a temporary one as a means of absorbing the present aux- 
 iliarie.s, or is a permanent proposal? 
 
 A. I merely suggest it so far as tlie existing force is concerned ; my 
 contention is that there should be no auxiliaries at all. 
 
 Q. You are not making a proposal for the future, but simply suggesting 
 a method of absorbing the present stuft'? 
 
 A. Just .so, sir. I have combated the suggestion that it is necessary 
 that men should be employed as auxiliaries at all, and we contend that as 
 in E.G., London, and Liverpool, and Newcastle, there are no auxiliaries 
 employed, it should be possible to do without them elsewhere. My sug- 
 gestion was in view of the fact that a certain number of auxiliaries are in 
 existence at the present time, and should be absorbed in the permanent 
 staff. I meiin to show — and I hope I will be able to expound my idea in 
 the matter clearly to you— that we are of opinion that there is no necessity 
 for an auxiliary class at all. The late Postmaster-General (the Right Hon. 
 Arnold Morley), in his defence of the employment of auxiliary labour, further 
 stated: — " Tliese men are employed not for full day, but only part of a 
 day. and the Post Office does not profess to give them a full week's watres. 
 The wages they receive are in the nature of piece-work, and the question°for 
 the Postmaster-General's consideration is, not what sum in any particular 
 case this payment amounts to in a week, but whether it is a fair rate per 
 hour, and sufficient to command the services required." This opens up the 
 question a|Kirt from that of their absorption into that of the established 
 force, wliether these men are i«ud at a fair rate of wage for the services
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 73 
 
 rendered. Allowing that owing to the accumulated pressure of work on the 
 first and last deliveries, it is necessary to employ a certain proportion of 
 auxiliary labour, we submit that even then they are not fairly dealt with, 
 as, although the late Right Hon. H. Cecil Raikes laid down the rule that 
 no man should be employed at less than sixpence an hour, in numerous 
 instances they are paid much less. 
 Mr. LlewelljTi Smith: In London? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am speaking for London. I will give you a case in point 
 at Hackney Office in the Eastern District. It is the case of a man who 
 does the General Post delivery — by which we mean the first delivery in the 
 morning; then he has a collection at 10 a.m., and at 11 a.m., and another 
 collection at 1 p.m., for which he gets 14s. 6d. per Aveek — that is, 6d. per 
 week less than he should have at the auxiliary rate of wages laid down 
 by Mr. Raikes. 
 Mr. Walpole : Can you give us the hours he works ? 
 
 A. He does the General Post delivery, as I have .said, which, taking the 
 official time laid down, is supposed to last two hours. Then he does the 
 10 o'clock a.m. collection, which, I presume, would take an hour, with 
 a similar time for the later collections at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock. 
 Q. You presume they take an hour? 
 
 A. Mr. Raikes laid down the dictum that no delivery was to be paid 
 for at less than Is., which would represent two hours, and no collection at 
 less than 6d., which would represent one hour's duration. I go upon these 
 lines. 
 Q. You mean that he ought to have 15s. a week instead of 143. 6d. ? 
 A. Quite so, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you give me the name of that man? 
 
 A. B. J. Berry, a man of longer years' service than myself. I hare 
 done 17 years, and I think he has done three or four years more. The next 
 ca3e I would like to mention is that of a man named Jones. He does the 
 General Post delivery, the 10 o'clock collection, the 31 o'clock collection, 
 and the 1 o'clock collection, but he only gets 14s. a week, so that he is a 
 shilling short. 
 Q. You assume that the General Post delivery takes two hours ? 
 A. I don't assume it ; I take it as a Departmental rule. 
 Q. Quite so; you are quite right. Jones only gets 14s. a week? 
 A. Another man. Hill, does the same duties, and gets 14s. 6d. a week 
 Q. Do you know whether they have drawn attention to their case? 
 A. Repeatedly. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Do you know what the reply was ? 
 A. The reply was that that was all they would get. 
 Mr. Walpole : By whom was the reply given? 
 A. By the overseer at the Hackney Office. 
 
 The Chairman: I understand these men are all of the Hackney Office? 
 A. Yes ; I am giving instances from that office. There is another case of 
 a man named Baulsen. 
 Q. Same office? 
 
 A. Yes. He does the 10 o'clock collection and the 11 o'clock collection ; 
 from 6.40 to 7.15 he does the late-fee collection, fii'd then the 8 p.m. 
 delivery, for which he gets 14s. 6d. per week, whereas, according to the 
 Raikes' scheme, he should be receiving 16s. He does three collections and 
 one delivery. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Should he not get 15s. ? 
 
 A. I think, according to the official times laid down, lie should get I63., 
 but he gets Is. 6d. less. 
 
 Q. That seems to be a similar case to Berry's — three collections and one 
 delivery ? 
 A. Yes ; but I think the late-fee collection extends a little longer.
 
 74 H. M. WiKsox, llamp.vtt'ad 
 
 Q Have these men apjiealed from tlie overseer to the PostmahiLer ? 
 
 A. Yes ; they appealed to the Postmaster, and in the first place sent 
 their appeal through the overseer, and the answer was that they cannot 
 receive any more money than they are receiving at the present time. 
 
 Q. Do you know wlien that appeal was made? 
 
 A. There have been repeated appeals made. I know that for a fact, be- 
 cause this man Berry came to see me personally, and I produced to him 
 the official statement of Mr. Raikes, showing the money he should receive. 
 
 I believe Mr. Churchfield can bear me out that Mr. Berry vent also to him, 
 and that he gave him an official copy of Mr. Raikes' schrme as laid down 
 for London, and he produced that before his superintending officer, but 
 still he only gets 14s. 6d. a week, or 6d. lass than the scale. I might also 
 inei.tion the case of a man named A. A. Smith, who does the 11 o'clock 
 collection in the morning; then he does station duty from 12.45 to 1.45. I 
 cannot inform you exactly what he does in that duty. 
 
 Q fe this still Hackney? 
 
 A. Yes ; and the same man does duty from 5.20 to 6.15 every other weak. 
 
 Q. Is that station duty? 
 
 A. I don't Imow, but that is on alternate week.';. Then he does parcel 
 collection from 7.30 every evening until probably 9.50, and for that duty 
 he gets Ks. 6d., whereis he should get 15s. 
 
 Q. For all these duties? 
 
 A. Yes. Another man at the same office, A. W. Allen, does the 11 a.m. 
 collectio/i, the 1 o'clock collection, and is on duty from 7.30 to 9.45, dealing 
 Mith parcels, and he gets 12s. a week, which is Is. 6d. less than the 
 official rate as laid down by Mr. Raikes. I am not sure wliether the 
 
 II a.m. duty that I have mentioned is a collection or delivery. b:;t at all 
 events he has a duty at that hour. I do not know whether it is necessary 
 to go into all these cases, but there are four men at the .same office who 
 actually get 2s. 6d. per week less than the offi.;ial rate. 
 
 Q. Why have these men not appealed to the Controller? Because men 
 are, so far as I know, not very diffident about appealing to headquarters. 
 
 A. That depends upon who the man is. I should not be diffident myself, 
 bat many men are ; and not only that, but you may not be aware that 
 where a man makes himself importunate with the su})eriat>nding officers 
 who have sole control in his particular office, that makes matters very un- 
 pleasant for him — that is, if he is too jiersistent. I know this case has been 
 p;it forward two or three times through the proper official channels. The 
 Department lays down a rule that a man must only make application through 
 hi.s imme^liate superior, and this man h;is done so, and the result of his 
 apj)lic:ition — ^or rather of their applications — was nil. If these men go and 
 apply in any other way than through their superiors, they are asked why 
 tliey have departed from the official course laid down for their guidar.ce. 
 Therefore tliere is not much encouragement for a man to go fuither after he 
 has received an answer from his immediite su])'-rior purporting to come 
 from the he id of the Dcpartirent. 
 
 Q. You know the superior is bound to send on to his next superior officer 
 any apj>eal again.st his own decision? 
 
 A. Di*cidedly we know that ; b'it ex}>erience has taught us that it is 
 absolutely us^de'-s, \Yc find by experience that the immediate superim- 
 officer's dictum becomes law. It is like running your head against a brick 
 wall to go against that, and the chances against it are verj' .^mall. 
 
 Q. At any rate these cases s' all be looked into now. 
 
 A. Thank you, sir. 
 
 Q. I don't understmd you to ol)iectto the Raikes' S'j^ile if it was carried 
 out' 
 
 A, If it waH carried »ut in its entirety I think the .T.uxilia'-ies %vould W
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 75 
 
 content with it, but that does not put aside our objection to their always 
 remaining auxiliaries. 
 
 Q. I was tiilking about the scale. 
 
 A. Yes. Again, when tliey enter the Service they have to make a 
 declaration that they have other employment, but, in many cases, their 
 duties are so extended over the day that it is impossible for them to follow 
 any other employment ; and where it suits the convenience of the Depart- 
 ment, the other employment of these men, which the Department insists at 
 other times upon them being in possession of, is on these occasions utterly 
 ignored and thrust upon one side. Again, to meet the increase of work 
 in gi'owing districts, isolated duties are created and given to these men, 
 until such time as it Incomes necessary, owing to the congested nature of the 
 increased work in the district, to re-arrange the whole of the duties at 
 their office, which is accomplished without any consideration for them, 
 notwithstanding the fact that to meet the exigencies of the Service they 
 have arranged their other employment (or in many cases given it up alto- 
 gether) to do these duties, and then they are deprived of them altogether 
 and given any duty at any part of the day which the Department in its wisdom 
 (or crassness) think proper to allocate to them, tlius making them suffer 
 a double pecuniary loss by depriving them of the remuneration they were 
 receiving for the duty of which they are deprived, and by dislocating their 
 spare time, so that they very often lose their other occupation through 
 inability to adapt the time at their disposal to it. This same injustice 
 applies also to such offices as have season duties, bringing these men on 
 duty at any time of the day while the pressure lasts, and then depriving them 
 of the said duties when it falls off. Now, sir, I would like to give you 
 some evidence on that point, because I do not wish to put forward a bald 
 ass'ertion without being able to support ifc. I would like to point out 
 here that not only do the auxiliaries have to sign that they are in posses- 
 sion of other employment when they take office under the Department as 
 auxiliaries, but every year a form is sent up to them, and this is a copy of 
 the form: — "I do hereby declare that I have other means of subsistence 
 than those derived from my employment as auxiliary postman, namely 
 (here a blank is left for the employment), and that my total earnings from 
 private sources and official wages are not less than 18s. per week." Now, 
 if any auxiliary postman should at any time be without other means of 
 subsistence than those derived from his employment as an auxiliary post- 
 man, he must report the circumstance to the Postmaster of the office which 
 he attends. Now, sir, I contend that that document is a great inducement 
 to men to make false declarations, because through, some unforeseen cir- 
 ciunstance over which a man may have no control, he may just happen to be 
 deprived for a sliort time of outside employment exactly when that document 
 is placed in his hands. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Once a year, is it? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. At a fixed time of the year? 
 
 A. Much about the same time in the year. I don't know that there is any 
 fixed date. Supposing a man were to go and report, as the official document 
 required, to his immediately superior officer, that he has no other employ- 
 ment but the auxiliary postmanship, he would naturally suppose, as it has 
 always been understood through the Service, that he would on that account 
 be displaced from his position as an auxiliary postman. I would put it to 
 the Committee that this is rather a hard strain on a man, to require him 
 to make a declaration informing his superior officer of the fact that he has 
 only but half a loaf, with the expectation that when he makes tliat state- 
 ment he will be deprived even of that half loaf ; that is a very false posi- 
 tion to put a man in, and a very hard line of conduct altogether on the part 
 of a Government Department like the Post Office. You see the man is
 
 76 II. M. Wilson, Hampstead. 
 
 naturally tempted to hide such a fact if he is without additional employ- 
 ment, in case he should get discharged from his position as an auxiliary, 
 and thus be deprived of anything at all. When a man in such a position has 
 a wife and family depending on him at home, it is not much use talking to 
 him about moral obligations, especially if he fancies that those depending 
 on him are likely to be deprived of food and sustenance.. Altogether that 
 is a point I wish to bring very strongly before the Committee, because it is 
 a great hardship of the auxiliaries, and doubtless puts some men to the 
 absolute neces.sity of telling falsehoods. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I see your point, and extremely sympathise with it. 
 On the other hand, don't you think it would be very undesirable for the 
 Department to be employing a large number of men at a very low scale of 
 wages without seeking some assurance that they would have the means 
 of subsistence? 
 
 A. I do think it would be very undesirable, but where these men have 
 been several years in the service of the Department, and the Department 
 is thorougldy conversant with their efficiency and honesty, I think this is a 
 very unfair imposition to place upon them. The officials know that these 
 men are thoroughly honest, straightforward men, who have alwaj'S done 
 their duty to the Department, and we think they ought not to be handi- 
 capped in the way I have described. * 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : I know your position i.s that these auxiliaries ought 
 to be abolished, but, supposing the class to l)e detained, do you see any 
 other way in which the Department could satisfy itself that the men had 
 some other sources of income? Have you any suggestion to make on that 
 point? 
 
 A. Yes ; I would like to point out to you the inconsi.stency of the De- 
 partment in sending such a notice to be signed by these men whilst the 
 postal authorities themselves have given the men such work to do extending 
 over the day that it is in many cases an utter impossibility for the man to 
 have other employment. 
 
 Q. Do the po.stal authorities force these duties on the auxiliaries. 
 
 A. No ; but I put it to the Committee as men of commercial experience 
 and knowledge whether a man having a regular job which brings him in so 
 much per week, and having also more precarious employment, would not 
 be likely to give up the more precarious employment if necessary rather 
 than sacrifice the more permanent work? 
 
 Q. You mean that there is a continual inducement to the men to depend 
 on the Post Office and drop their outside work? 
 
 A. Yes. Here is the case of a man at my own office at Hampstead, a 
 man named Frederick Davey, and the duty he does i.s as follows: — 6.15 
 a.m. to 8.30 a.m.. General Post delivei-y ; then he does a collection at 2.40, 
 and one at 4.20 ; then he is occupied from 4.40 to 5.30 carrying bags, after 
 which he has the 8 p.m. delivery, lasting till 10 p.m. I would like to ask 
 you, gentlemen, where the spare time is that that man has to devote to 
 other employment, and where is the employer of labour who would employ 
 him at such dislocated times? 
 
 Q. We know that there are some casual and occasional means of earning 
 a little money at some emplojTnent or other. 
 
 A. That is what he has to depend upon. 
 
 Q. That is what thev do depend upon, I suppose, a good deal? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Am I right in taking it that the interval between 4.20 
 and 4.40, being under 30 minutes, is all paid for M'ith the time work ; that 
 is. is he paid for the whole time from 2.40 to 5.30? 
 
 A. I think not. But at the present this is not a question so much of these 
 men's wages. I will admit that at Hampstead we receive the Raikes' scale, 
 ,and we are on the whole satisfied as to the rates of pay that the auxiliaries
 
 L,ond5il Auxiliaries' Case, 77 
 
 get, but I wish ratlier to draw your afct^ntidn to the inconsistency of tli^ 
 Department in insisting that these men shall have other emplo,>Tnent, and 
 expecting them to make a declaration to that effect, when the officials know 
 that the duties are often such as to leave t',e men little or no time to attend 
 to any other employment. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the man Davey gets? 
 
 A. Yes ; £1 Os. 9d. 
 
 Q. Tlien that in itself enables him to sign without any hesitation the 
 statement that his earnings exceed 18s.? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I presume you would not consider that enough to keep a 
 man and liis wife and two or three cliildren? 
 
 Q. I am only speaking in reference to your complaint as to these men 
 signing whether they have got more tlian 18s. per week. 
 
 A. 1 am not speaking so much about the wage as that he has very little 
 time to attend to any other employment, which the Department nevertheless 
 insists upon him having. 
 
 Q. When he was engaged? 
 
 A. Yes ; when he came mto tlie Service. 
 
 The Chairman : They only reijuire to be satisfied that he should have 18s. 
 a week? 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you know of any case of a man dismissed because, 
 having 18s. or less as an auxiliary, he had no other outside employment? 
 
 A. I cannot say that I have a knowledge of such cases. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, he would not be dismissed ? 
 
 A. I should hardlj^ think so. 
 
 The (Jliairnian : Are auxiliaries frequently dismissed through not having 
 extra outside employment? 
 
 A. They never give the Department an opportimity of dismissing them 
 on that ground, for they are always careful of having some extra work ; 
 they have always got something or other — at least I presume so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What is this man's trade? 
 
 A. He has got no trade ; he was a manservant, and he fills up what spare 
 tune he can get by cleaning windows, besides keeping a sweet-stuff shop. 
 
 Q. He would have some time in the morning for cleaning windows? 
 
 A. He is done about 8.30 ; but by the time he gets his breakfast there 
 is little time to clean windows. 
 
 Q. There is a breiik of six hours? 
 
 A. Hardly that, I think. 
 
 Q. From "8.30 to 2.40. 
 
 A. But he must get his meals, so that the whole time is not at his 
 disposal. 
 
 C^. As a matter of fact, does he not get other employment? 
 
 A. I am not .saying tliat this particular man does not get employment ; 
 I am only desiring to show how his duties are spread over the greater jxart 
 of tlie day. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, I understand that a gentleman in this room does 
 employ this man. 
 
 A. That may be ; I don't doubt that for a moment. I don't know who 
 may employ him. 
 
 Q. At all events he has other employment? 
 
 A. Yes. Here is a typical case of a man named Joseph Powell. His 
 pay amoimts to 15s. a week, so that he comes within the 18s. limit, and I 
 would really like for some member of the Committee to point out where 
 the opportunity arises for that man to incrwise his income beyond the 15s. 
 by outside employment. He has a collection in the morning nt 8.50, ex- 
 tending to 9.45, and he has a 12.45 collection and a 1 o'clock delivery, 
 which extends to 3 in the afternoon. He then does the 4 o'clock delivery, 
 lasting till 6.15, for all of which he gets 15s. a week. Practically the whole 
 of that man's time during the day is taken up by his duties as an auxiliary,
 
 78 H. M. WiLsoK, Hainpstead, 
 
 and I cannot see where any opportunity presents itself to him to enable liim 
 to add anything to his 15s. 
 Q. What is he by trade? 
 
 A I cannot answer for that, but, fortunately for himself, he is a single 
 man. Here is the case of another man in the same office, Henry W^lter.s ; 
 he does the General Post delivery in tlie morning from 6.15 to 8.30 official 
 time ; he is again on duty from 12.46 till 3 o'clock, and then has a delivery 
 from 8 p.m. till 10 at night, for which he gets 15s. 9d. I believe that 9d. 
 is given to him for taking a bye-bag to St. John's Wood and Kilbum 
 l>etween the other deliveries with mis-sorted letters. The Hampsttad, 
 Kilburn, and St. John's divisions are so mixed that it is practically im- 
 possible for each man in sorting always to know exactly where the respec- 
 tive divisions end, and so, in order that there may not be any delay w'*h the 
 correspondence, this man is paid 9d. a week for tiking that back all the 
 week backwards and forwards. 
 Q. Do you know what he is? 
 
 A. He is a reserve man. I am not aware whether he has finished Ins time 
 in the reserve, but he came in from the army. I have also a memorandum 
 of the case of a man named Hartley, who I find has now left the Post Office 
 ami gone into the army. 
 
 The Chairman : The pay which the other man received as a reservist 
 would count with him as other employment. 
 
 A. Yes ; if he has the reserve pay. Hartley, whom I have mentioned, 
 came in as a telegraph mes,senger, and although he has now left anotlier 
 similar officer is doing the duty which he had ; it is done by a former 
 telegraph messenger called Ramscart. This is the duty he does: — 8.40 a.m. 
 to 9.45 a.m., collection ; then again, 1.55 to 2.40, 4 to 6.30, and 9 to 9.45, 
 for wages to the amount of 15s. per week. Now, there is a duty extending 
 piactically all over the day, and yet as an auxiliary he is supposed to have 
 other employment, though he came from the Telegraph Service in common 
 with manj' other auxiliaries. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith: Do you know what his other emplojTiient is? 
 A. I should say that practically he has no other ; I don't see how lie 
 can ; he cannot liave a trade at his fingers' end, having come from the 
 Telegraph Service. 
 
 Mr. AV'alpole : Was he a telegraph messenger ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Was he living at home? 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, a telegraph messenger employed as in auxiliary 
 duty and living at home is not ret^uired to sign the form you have mentioned? 
 A. I have not known of any auxiliary to be exempted from it. 
 Q. I believe that telegraph messengers who are auxiliaries and living at 
 home are not required to sign it? 
 
 A. That would be knowii to you, sir, but I have no knowledge of it. 
 Then I would like, gentlemen, to give some evidence in respect to this point : 
 that whilst the Department expects these men to have other work it does 
 not take into consideration that fact in so allocating their duties — I mean 
 their postal duties — so tliat they may fall in with their other duties. I 
 have a case in point, and I tliinic it is a very hard case. It was either at 
 the latter end of 1887 or in the beginning of 1888, but that can no doubt 
 be ascerfciined from the office. There was a revision of duty in the Northern 
 District Office, and several of the auxilifiries had been employed from 6.30 
 in the evening until 10 o'clock at night, for which they got 10s. a week ; 
 and here I am not complaining about the wages. Tliey came in for a 
 collection at 5.30, and were on sorting duty and despatching duty until it 
 was time for the 8 o'clock delivery, which they took out, which as a rule 
 kept them occupied until 10 o'clock or even a little later ; that gave theser
 
 London AuxilUrifs' Case. ^9 
 
 m^ tlie wliole fore part of the day for other occupations, but at the time 
 of the revision to which I have referred their duties were altered, and 
 they were brouglit in for a collection at 10 o'clock in the morning, actually 
 breaking into the very central jwrtion of the time which the men had 
 previously devoted to their private employment. Though they protested 
 strongly against it the Department would not make any alteration. They 
 told these poor old auxiliaries that unless they choose to accept that duty 
 they nm.st go. 
 
 Q. How long would the duty last from 10 o'clock? 
 
 A. It is not a question of how long it would last ; the grievance is 
 putting t'rds duty right in the centre of their time, when men had 
 already made arrangements to devote the earlier part of the day to their 
 private occupations. In spite of protests on tl;eir part, the Department 
 would not alter this duty, but told them that unless they accepted it they 
 must go, and they did go. I think they were entitled to some consideration, 
 ispecially when I mention that the aggregate term of service of these men 
 amounted to 120 years. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: How long were they employed from 10 o'clock? 
 A. I cannot give you an answer to that. I don't know how long the 
 duty lasted, but the objection was to depriving them of the time most ad- 
 vantageous to them for other business. 
 The Chairman : Was it a collection? 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But it would not last an hour? 
 
 A. Probably not ; but you have to take into account the time occupied 
 in going and coming. A man might be deprived in that way of from 2 to 
 2^ hours. In my o^\^l duties there is no account taken of the fact that I 
 have got nearly three-quarters of an hour's walk in the morning before I 
 can stiirt at 3 a.m. to make my collection, and it is the same at the 9.45 
 collection, or rather I have then 25 minutes before I can get to my first 
 box ; I have a corresponding distance to come back after that from the 
 office, and, though I am not complaining of my duties, yet, as the remark 
 M'as made that I was only working about b^ hours, I thought it as well to note 
 that the Department occupies my time for at least 8 hours. At South Ken- 
 sington these auxiliaries are brought m for season duty at a certain time of 
 the ye;ir, and then deprived of it after a time. 
 Q. Deprived of what? 
 
 A. Deprived of the season duty, there being no necessity for it. 
 Q. Not when the season is finished. 
 
 A. I am speaking rather of the hardship of them being called in to do 
 tliis extra duty for a time. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you mean that it is an irregula,r form of duty which 
 prevents tliem pursuing other callinguS with the sam.e advantage? 
 A. Just so, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In a case like South Kensington, Vvhere there is a large 
 season pressure, what is the Department to do? It must cope witli tlie 
 work, ami don't j'^ou think it must empluj' temporary men? 
 
 A. I will show later on that if the Department took proper lines there 
 M'ould be. no necessity for it. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you complain that when there i^ this extra work to 
 do the Department employs men to do it? 
 
 A. The}^ are only extra men in a cert.iin sense ; they are the same men 
 who are already employed in the Department. I should like here to 
 mention the case of a man at Blackheath, who is a waiter. He states that on 
 Saturda3% 13th July, which was, I suppose, the time of the General Election, 
 they had an election there, and an order came down to the office to say that 
 no man, not only no establishment man, but no man was to be let off that 
 day owing to some thousands of circularis that were expected, and that must
 
 80 H. M. Wilson, Harapstead. 
 
 he delivered the day they came. 3,600 circulars came, and as this man had 
 an afternoon job offered him that day for 7s. 6d., he spoke to tlie overieer 
 and asked whether he could not be allowed to go to that job, but he writes 
 that the overseer said " No, you cannot get off." He entreated the overseer 
 to let him go, aai<l offered to come down for the 10 o'clock delivery and again 
 in the evening, and then by that means he was let off, otherwise it would 
 not have mattered what that man's otlier employment was, for it was only 
 at the discretion of the overseer that he M'as allowed to go ; that was 
 only after making repeated applications, and showing what he would lose, 
 and offering to come at another time for extra duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Are you giving us an instance of an overseer helping 
 a man or refusing to help him? 
 
 A. I am giving this as an instance of the way in which the Department 
 utterly ignores the other business which they assume these men to have. 
 
 Q. But the man was let off? 
 
 A. The official dictum did not let him off. 
 
 Q. He was let off at the discretion of the overseer — that is, the De- 
 partment met his requirement. 
 
 A. If there had been any delay in tlie delivery of these circulars I fancy 
 the overseer would have had his knuckles rapped. 
 
 Q. The instance you have quoted shows that the overseer gave him tlie 
 chance of earning the extra 7s. 6d. outside. 
 
 A. Yes ; but utterly irre.spective of the work which the Department in- 
 sists upon these men having outside. An order is issued that no man is 
 allowed to be away on a certain occasion. 
 
 Q. But an exception is made to that order when a man wants to get 
 away ? 
 
 A. I am afraid I could not fall in with that view, for in many offices the 
 overseer would stind by the red tape rule, which he would liold could not 
 be departed from. 
 
 Q. At this office the man was allowed to go? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Was not that his regular duty? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You don't mean to say that the Department would have refused him 
 leave outside of his regular duty? 
 
 A. Yes ; there was an order — no man was to be allowed off duty. 
 
 Q. Off duty means off the duty to vrhich he is assigned, not that the man 
 is to be detained in the ofhce all day. 
 
 A. I know that when an order of that kind is received no man is allowed 
 away. 
 
 The Chairman : Whether liLs duty is over or not he is kept in all day? 
 
 A. If an order of that kind is received a man is detained. 
 
 Q . Has it ever happened to you ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been kept all day waiting for extra duty? 
 
 A. In connection with the battle I am fighting for the auxiliaries I can 
 safely say tliat I have myself met with exceptional and kind treatment on 
 the part of the Department ; I have had nothing to complain of personally, 
 but these cases have been brought before me. and it seems to me that if 'a 
 man's wants and requirements can l>e met in one instance they might be 
 met fairly all round. 
 
 Q. I quite grasp your point, but I think you should have given us an 
 instance in which the auxiliary had suffered ; in tlie case you quoted they 
 did not suffer. 
 
 A. He suffered by having to come down later for extra, duties, and was 
 only allowed off on that condition. 
 
 Q. After all he was paid for the later time he worked, and he also got 
 the 7s. 6d. in the afternoon. You have quoted an instance where hardship
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 81 
 
 was avoided by the discretion of the overseer ; I should like you to quote 
 us a case where an auxiliary suffered through being kept in attendance 
 through the day. 
 
 A. I can give you an instance in my own office. On Boxing Day, two 
 or three years ago, there was a great delay in the matter of parcel delivery ; 
 we were fairly inundated with jwrcels at the office, and after finishing his 
 delivery the man was ordered back to assist with the parcels. The question 
 whether he had any other duty or not was not taken into account, and many 
 of the men were kept at work until late in the afternoon. 
 
 Q. They were paid overtime for it? 
 
 A. I am only speaking of the system of bringing these men at certain 
 periods when it suits the Department, although the Post Office insists upon 
 them having other emplojnnent. 
 
 Q. Did any of these men ask to be let off because of other employment? 
 
 A. I should think they would not have other work on Boxing Day, but 
 if they had asked I am afraid tliey would not have got off, for the rule 
 would have been like the laws of the Medes and Persians. 
 
 The Chairman : If he had no other work to do, in many cases they would 
 probably be glad to come in and earn overtime? 
 
 A. Yes. Another grave injustice imposed upon the auxiliary class is the 
 ])erformance of sick duty ; that is, when an established man is ill his bities — 
 occupying 8 hours per day — are in many instances allotted to an auxiliary 
 Iiostman to perform at a wage of 18s. per week, or 4id. per hour (which 
 cannot by any stretch of the imagination be termed a fair rate of pay for 
 such important work), and this notwithstanding the fact that the established 
 mail may be receiving as much as 36s. per week for the same duties. Now, 
 
 I don't wish to make that statement without giving some evi<lence on the 
 point. I know that the Department is adopting a plan whereby reserve 
 men may in some instances do this sick duty, and some telegraph messen- 
 gers may do it, but in my own district in our office at St. John's Wood 
 last week an auxiliary was called on to take sick duty for an established man 
 named Moore, and got 18s. The duty he had to do was the General Post 
 delivery, for which he arrived at the office at 6 a.m., a 9 a.m. collection, an 
 
 II a.m. collection, and a noon collection, and a 3.10 p.m. collection, and a 
 4.45 collection, remaining at the office until after 6 to make up the G.P.O. 
 bag. The man further qualifies this by stating that he has to walk 15 
 minutes for the 9 o'clock collection before he can make a start, and so with 
 the other collections except the one at 4.45, which is around the office. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : How many hours does he work? 
 
 A. First from 6 to 8.30, then the 9 o'clock collection, which would be 
 one hour official time, and as he does not finish his first duty until 8.30 
 he is practically away the wlisle time from early morning. After 10 o'clock 
 he has to look forward to the 11 o'clock collection, which would take him 
 till 12, irrespective of the time coming and going, and tlie 1 o'clock collec- 
 tion would take him till 2 o'clock. Then the 3.10 collection would take him, 
 
 believe, till 4 o'clock, after which he has the 4.45 collection ; but- he 
 remains till 6 to make up the G.P.O bag. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It just makes it under 8 hours' duty? 
 
 A. And the man, according to Mr. Raikes' scheme, should be paid 24s 
 for it. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : And he is paid 18s. ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Mr. Raikes scheme did not apply to auxiliaries on full- 
 time, did it? 
 
 A. Well, so much the better for the auxiliaries on full time. 
 
 Q. Is it not the case that it applied only to isolated postmen, and not to 
 men working the full eight hours? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, sir. I got a rise of 3s. myself on that account, 
 
 Q. Did you get 24b. a week?
 
 82 II. M. WiLSox, Haiiipstt'Hd 
 
 A. I was getting 25s. 6d. a week before Mr. Raikes' scheme came on, 
 an-l when it came in it made me up to 28s. 6d. jjer week. 
 
 Mr. Smith : How long did tliat sick duty last to which you referred 
 just now? 
 
 A. The man only did it for one week, and then he refused to do it any 
 longer. 
 
 Q. Do you know what his emj)loyment is outside? 
 
 A. He is a man who has been in the army, sir. If lie has any employment 
 it would be of a casual character — whatever he can obtain. I do not think 
 he has any trade. 
 
 Q. Do you know what particular work he was doing outside? Have 
 you any information as to that? 
 
 A. I bi3lieve he is a handy ma;i in gentlemen's houses. He has got a 
 decent little sort of connection. 
 
 Q. When he declined to go on with the sick duty did he go back to his 
 ordinary work as an auxiliary? 
 
 A. I presume so. 
 
 Q. He was not discharged? 
 
 A. Xo. 
 
 Q. Then it was quite at his option? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. But it comes to this — that when the Department empioys a 
 man to do duty my contention is that they should pay him a proper rate 
 of Avages. I submit that this is a case of sweating on the part of the 
 Department. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: But this case is not quite consistent with the theory that 
 a man is obliged to take additional work if additional hours of attendance 
 are offered him. I thought I understood you to state that any auxiliary to 
 whom additional Mork was offered was obliged to take it? 
 
 A. Not oVdiged to take it except in such an instance as I have stated on 
 the niorning of a Bank Holiday, when every man was ordered back for a 
 parcel delivery. He would be compelled to do that then. 
 
 Q. Otherwise, in the ordinary way it Ls quite within the option of an 
 auxiliary to refuse to do the duty? 
 
 A. We are not complaining that the Department compels a man to do 
 the duty. We are complaining that when they offer the duty they offer 
 it at a sweating wage. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you suggest it should be paid for on the continuous 
 scale at i>er hour? 
 
 A. Yes ; we contend tliat in all instances Raikes' scheme should be put 
 in force where auxiliaries are employed. 
 
 Q. Exactly — at 6d. per hour? 
 
 A. Just so, sir. Next I wish to point out the advantages they should 
 participate in. Now, considering that the work demande.l of these men 
 is identical with tha,t performed by the established class, it is only just that 
 while they are employed as auxiliaries they should receive some of the 
 contingent advantages of the former class in the shape of holidays, sick pay, 
 stripes, boot allowance — at least, in a reduced ratio. We claim that ihe 
 Raikes' scale a&'ecting the auxiliary class should be carried out literally — 
 that is, they should receive payment at the following rates: — From 5 a.m. 
 to 10 p.m.. 6d. per hour; from 10 p.m. to midnight, 8d. per hour; from 
 mi'lnight to 5 a.m., 9d. per hour; and for all Sunday, Christmas, and Good 
 Friday duty Is. per hour. I may inform you that these auxiliary men 
 consider that the work they do is identical with that performed bv the 
 established cla-^s in every respect, and in numbers of suburban offices 
 tluoughout London these men are doing all the making up of the bags and 
 despatching, and everything else just tlie same as an established man. In 
 that office, practically speaking, the Department are requiring work from 
 these men which the other men at other places axe receiving a maximum of 
 553 per week for, whereas the Departmant is now only paying at the
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 83 
 
 outside 6d. per hour, and in many cases less. In addition to that, the 
 men get no holidays at all, no sick pay, and there is no question of stripes 
 no matter how long they serve. Tliey have uo boot allowance, too, and, 
 indeed, no advantage of any sort or description. In laying down 6d. per 
 hour as the mininunn rate these men should receive, we would point out 
 that this is the dock labourer's wage ; and anything below that amount is, 
 as stated by Mr. Booth m his evidence liefore the Royal Commission, below 
 the poverty line ; and a.s the dock labourer requires nothing but physical 
 strength, and the auxiliary postman must be possessed of honesty, in- 
 tegrity, and a certain amount of educational ability, he is at least Avorthy 
 of the same rate of wage. We would furthermore suggest, in counting. 
 the time employed, that any time between two duties of less than one hour 
 should be considered as a continuous duty, as where a man has to make twa 
 or three att-endances daily, the time occupied in going to and fro is a 
 considerable loss to him. 
 
 HOLIDAYS. 
 
 In tlie matter of holidays (as before mentioned) many of these men 
 perform duties so extended over the day that practically their whole time 
 is involved, and as they are contuiuously at work the whole year through, 
 it is only rigiit and necessary, as regards health, that they should receive at 
 least one week's holiday without loss of pay during the year. More es- 
 pecially in the matter of Bank Holidays are the auxiliaries unjustly dealt 
 with, as a man upon the establishment is either paid extra for the duty 
 he performs on a Bank Holiday, or is allowed a similar time off duty upon 
 some otlier occasion ; and as the Legislature has decreed these daj's shall 
 hi public holidays, we fail to see why the auxiliary postman should be 
 singled out for its deprivation witiiout any recompense, more e.si)ecially as 
 no recognised annual holiday is granted to these men should they receive 
 the Bank Holitlay concession in common with the men upon the established 
 class. 
 
 SICK ALLOWANCE. 
 
 The question of sick allowance is a most importiint item with this class, 
 and we contend that while the.se men are ex^Kjsed to t-lie same risks from 
 mclemency of our very changeable climate, and while no special effort is 
 made to protect them from any coutagious disease or epidemic that may be 
 raging, some allowance should be made to them when they succumb to the 
 effects of these contingencies ; and as the established man is allowed full pay 
 during sickness, we would suggest that the auxiliary should be allowed at 
 least half. I put it down to half because I cannot see how I can consis- 
 tently ask that an auxiliary sliall get the whole of his pay during illness. 
 He devotes only a portion — as a rule aljout one-half — of his time to the 
 Department. But we do contend that while an auxiliary has to go into 
 the same infected neighbourhood as the established postman, and is sub- 
 jected to the same inclemencies of the weather, wlien he succumbs to them — 
 which is often the case on account of the pressure of the work of the De- 
 partment — he should be allowed Lalf-pay. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : About the holidays : Do I understand you to say that 
 when an auxiliary is at work full hours continually he does not get any 
 holidays ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; he gets one week's holiday during tiie year; that is all, 
 when he is doing full-time duty the same as an established man — that is to 
 say, 8 hours. 
 
 The Chairman: And anybody not doing 8 hours gets uo holiday? 
 
 A. No lioliday of any sort or description. Now I come to the question of
 
 84 11. M. Wilson, Hamp-^tead. 
 
 good conduct stripes. The good conduct stripe question is one that bearS 
 very Imrdly and unjustly upon the auxiliary class, and also indirectly 
 sultjects thein to a very gr.ive suspicion in the eyes of the public, as the 
 public are always informed that stripes are issued solely on account of good 
 conduct, and they (having no means of judging the difference Vjetween an 
 established postman and an auxiliary) seeing a lad enter the Service, and 
 after five years receive a strijje, and an auxiliary whom they have known 
 as postman for perhaps ten or even twenty years without such a distinction, 
 naturally come to the conclusion that the auxiliary must have misconducted 
 himself in some May or other — i very undesirable impression to create in 
 the mind of the public in respect to a. man who lias to fulfil so important 
 duty as the safe-guarding and delivery of important documents, and in 
 many cases very valuable property ; putting on one side that it is quite 
 as importint in a public department like the Post Office to encourage good 
 conduct in tlie whole of its staff, as it is in a section. We would suggest 
 (if it is desirous of shoMuig a distinction between the two classes) that as 
 the estal)lislied man wears his stripes horizontally, the auxiliary should wear 
 his in perpendicular position. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Chairman: You are determined not to mislead the public? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think t'le public would make inquiry why one man wears the 
 stripes in one j^osition and one man in another, and then they would get 
 some logical idea of what the position of an auxiliary postman is. They 
 get no chance of that now. Whenever an answer may be given to questions 
 to the Postmaster-General in the House of Commons, it is to the effect 
 that stripes are not considered as wages but are the reward for good and 
 meritorious conduct, we contend that the Department ought to encourage 
 good conduct as much in the auxiliary staff as they should in any other 
 class. This is a matter which rests entirely with the Department. It is 
 not like a pension scheme, for which an Act of Parliament has to be ob- 
 t;iiried purposely, but it rests solely with the Department and the Treasury. 
 I take it it is just as necessary that good conduct should be encouraged in 
 an auxiliary as it is in the case of an established man, seeing that the 
 same respon.sibilities are put upon him, and that the same amount of 
 valuable property is entrusted to his care. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would you give stripes to all the auxiliaries, iiTespective 
 of the amount of duty they do? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I should not make any distinction on that point. Provided 
 that a man does his duty properly, honestly, and straightforwardly, I think 
 tlie Department should encourage him even although he has only one duty 
 to perform instead of four. I do not mean to put forward a claim that they 
 should have it for a less term of service than the established men. You see 
 that auxiliaries stand at a stagnant wage. There is no prospect of that wage 
 increasing in any shape or form, and it would be a certain amount of re- 
 compense for the stagnant position if a man could improve his position by 
 an addition of from Is. to 3s. a week to his wages by deserving it for 
 meritorious conduct. Again, some concession in the way of boot allowance 
 would be a great Vioon to these men. as the nature of their work naturally 
 bears very heavily upon this article of clothing, and we would suggest 
 that they be granted one pair of boots annually, or half the amount granted 
 to the estiiblished class. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Some have an allowance, have they not? 
 
 A. Yes ; half the amount granted to the established class. There are 
 two points I should like to mention to you which I have not dealt with in 
 my statement, and one is with regard to the men not being entitled to any 
 pension. We certainly advocate an amendment of tlie Superannuation Act. 
 I did not put that into my statement, as Mr. Walsh, of Liverpool, was 
 dealing with the superannuation question, and I am satisfied with the way 
 in wliich he put the case of the auxiliaries forward. I am prepared to leave 
 that matter in his hands. But there is another question which has been
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 
 
 biouglit before you — that of Christmas boxes. In most of the suburban 
 offices in London the auxiliaries have a fair siiare of the Christmas boxes, 
 according to the deliveries they do. As a rule, for eacli delivery a 
 man does on a walk he gets a share of the Christmas boxes. 
 I will make my case clear to you. Say that there are three established men 
 on a walk, presumably one of them does four deliveries a day, and the other 
 two will do three. Tlie numl>er of duties necessary on the walk are made 
 up by the auxiliary postmen, and the shares of the Christmas boxes are 
 <letermined according to the men who do the deliveries. The money col- 
 lected is divided into so many shares, and if an auxiliary does one duty 
 ho gets one share ; if two he gets two shares, and the established men 
 receive in the same proportion. 
 
 The Chairman: They are exactly the same? 
 
 A. Yes, according to the duty they do. Of course, the contention has 
 been put forward that these Christmas boxes should be abolished. I am cer- 
 t<ain that the auxiliary postmen will quite agree with that as much as the 
 established men. It is a degrading system to be subjected to — to go round 
 like licensed beggars to do what any man in private life would be locked 
 up for doing. At the same time, like the established men, as tliese Christ- 
 mas boxes have been recognised as part of our wages, we do not feel in- 
 clined to lose them witliout some recompense. On that score the estab- 
 lished men have put forward a claim, and it has been suggested that they 
 would be willing to drop them if they were to receive an immediate rise. 
 Now, as the wages of an auxiliary man do not rise, the question comes in, 
 how is he to l)e compensated for the los.s of the Christmas boxes should 
 they be prohibited, and he be unable to solicit them any more than any other 
 man? His wages do not increase, and I can hardly see where the remunera- 
 tion is coming in. The suggestion I put forward on behalf of the auxiliary 
 men is that, provided the Department abolish Christmas boxes, each aux- 
 iliary should receive Is. per week additional for each delivery he does. 
 That is, making £2 12s. for each delivery in lieu of a share of the Christ- 
 mas boxes, and as, practically speaking, most of the auxiliaries only do 
 one delivery, or at the most two, and as the Department have computed 
 that a man receives £5 a year as Cliristmas boxes, I think to claim £2 12s. 
 for the auxiliaries is a very moderate request. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You suggest Is. per week each for each delivery? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have given us some cases in which the auxiliaries are doing two 
 and three deliveries a day? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; two deliveries. 
 
 Q. And then that would represent an increase of over £5? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; £5 4s. If you make an allowance to the established men 
 who get an increasing wage, I take it that as an auxiliary has a stagnant 
 wage, it is not too much to ask for this concession. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you think that represents the average sum received by 
 the auxiliary? 
 
 A. As Mr. Warner told you, it is a difficult matter to fix an average 
 sum. Some of the walks are very wealthy walks, and the average rate the 
 men would receive from them would be far in excess of the amount obtained 
 on a poor walk. It is therefore a very difficult matter to estimate what is 
 the average rate a man receives in the shape of Christmas boxes. If tliey are 
 abolished, I certainly put it forward in all good faith and conscience that I 
 do not think it would be an exorbitant demand on the part of the auxiliaries 
 that they should receive Is. additional per week for each delivery. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you think that if the Christmas boxes were abolished 
 the public would cease giving? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; in 99 cases out of 100. 
 
 Q. Do you really think that? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I do.
 
 86 H. M. WiLsON, Hanipstead. 
 
 Q. And that is your opinion? 
 A. It is, sir. 
 
 Q. But it was not the case when railway porters' tips were abolished? 
 A. I do not know anything about railway porters' tips. I have never 
 been in that line of business. I have been an auxiliary postman for 16 
 years, and I know as a positive fact tliat if I did nob ask for Christmas 
 boxes I should not get them in many instances. I do not know whether 
 the person whom I ask is short of coin at the time, but the reply often 
 is, "Do you mind calling such-and-such a time?" Sometimes I do call, 
 and I find if I do not call a second time I never get anything at all. That 
 is the c;xse in 99 times out of 100, I never liave them offered to me. 
 Mr. L. Smith: In what district is that? Is it Hampstead? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, the Scotch postman does not ask for 
 Christma.s boxes ? 
 A. So I see. 
 
 Q. And yet they do get Cliristmas boxes. 
 
 A. I wish that happened in London ; they are very fortunate there. 
 Mr. L. Smith : You mean you wish you could do without asking for 
 them? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. These matters that have been laid before you are some of 
 the most burning and important grievances that the auxiliary class are 
 suffering under (vviiich can be substantiated — as I think I have shown — by 
 evidence), and we feel assured that when you have given them your careful 
 and earnest consideration we can confidently leave the issue in your hands, 
 and that you will allow they are well-founded and deserving of material 
 alleviation, and trust the few auxiliaries that are unavoidably retained will 
 receive a higher rate of remuneration and a greater share of contingent 
 advantages, but that the class will be merged into the establishment as far 
 as practicable. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you have another point to raise about tlie two 
 years' probation. I think you may as well go on and finish your evidence. 
 Witness : Do you prefer to take that now? 
 
 The Chairman : Y'^es ; I think we may as well do so as j'ou are here 
 now. I was going to ask jou a question. You have told us several times 
 in the course of your evidence when you were asked what remedies you 
 proposed, that you would deal with them later on. I do not think you have 
 as yet given us those remedies. 
 
 A. I do not think that I have. My remedy is the absorption of the 
 auxiliary class into the established class. I contend, the same as Mr. 
 Barnes contended over the zone system, that London itself should be one 
 whole, and that all within the Metropolitan area should be treated in the 
 same way as tliey are treated in the City. I contend also that greater 
 posfcil facilities should be given all over London, and that one part should 
 iiave equal treatment with another part. I think a plan ought to be 
 adopted all over the Metropolis by which there should be a delivery and 
 collection pretty nearly every hour per day. I know very well it may be 
 contended that that would be difficult, and that there would not be a 
 corresponding amount of work to be done, but I submit that the work would 
 be spread more equally over the day. At the verj^ office at which I am — 
 at Hampstead — wlien I first went there, there were only six deliveries a 
 day. I am not quite certixin what were the number of collections ; I do 
 not think tliere could have been more than half the present number. Now 
 we have practically a collection every hour throughout the day. We have 
 also had an additional delivery put on at 3 p.m., as there used to be no 
 delivery between 1 and 4. We have found by experience tliat since this 
 fre.sh delivery, ami since these additional collections have been instituted, 
 the work lias been more equally spread over the day. Experience shows that 
 when the public get to have a thorough knowledge of the arrangements
 
 London Aiixiliarlea' Case. 8'i 
 
 ill regard to collection and delivery, the work, instead of becoming lighter 
 by reason of the increased nunib.T of deliveries, increases correspondingly, 
 and it is only when the public are thoroughly well aware of the existence 
 of these postal facilities at certain times during the day that they make use 
 of tl'ein. If there were more in existence I believe they would be used 
 ei[ually as much as the present ones ; that would mean an increase of income 
 to the Post Otiice and an addilioual amount to hand over to the IVeasury 
 which would enable them to pay the expense of the furtlier duties I am 
 advocating. I think tint the question might be met in that way. 
 
 y. You would increase the numljer of deliveries and collections, and 
 in that way find full employment for the whole of the auxiliaries ; you 
 would also take them on the regular staff? 
 A. Y«s, sir. 
 
 Q. Where will you stop? Would there not then be something more 
 wanted? 
 
 Mr. Smith : If you go on like that you might have a delivery or collec- 
 tion every minute of the day. 
 
 A. You could not possibly do that : time would not admit of a delivery 
 and collection every minute. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the fact that in the City the work is so heavy 
 and the corresi)ondence so great that we are forcod to have half-hourly 
 collections, or the letter-boxes would be crammed up in the middle of 
 the (lay? Surely you do not suppose the same difficulty would arise in 
 the outlying parts of Hampstead? 
 
 A. I think, sir, if you were to pay a visit to Hampstead, you would 
 find that the collections were pretty heavy, and that the men's bags were 
 tilled up to the top. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : How would you get rid of the auxiliary force? 
 A. There would in the future be no necessity to engage an auxiliary 
 force : every man would be on established duty. 
 
 Q. Would not the difficulty in getting rid of the auxiliary force arise 
 from the fact that the v.'ork is of a fluctuating character at different parts 
 of the day? 
 
 A. The work of the morning delivery and of the last delivery at night 
 is rather heiivier than at other times of the day, but at the same time I 
 maintain my contention that there would be sufficient work during the whole 
 of the day if these additional postal facilities were given to the public. 
 As a matter of experience, we know that where new duties are created, 
 there is a corresponding increase in the amoimt of correspondence. I feel 
 sure that the public would avail themselves of increased facilities. At the 
 2)resent time they wmnot do so because they are not in existence. 
 
 Q. And you think that then there would cease to be a difference between 
 the duties at different times of the day? 
 A. Just so. 
 
 The Cliairman : How long are you likely to be with the probationers' 
 ease? 
 
 A. I have not a wonderful lot, but I am afraid I shall bring in some 
 
 contentious matter. The prolongation of the term of probation 
 
 The Chairman : When was the change made. 
 
 A. I hsirdly know the date. It was three or four years back. Mr. 
 Maclaren tells me it was a year later in the provinces than in Lor.don. The 
 I)rolongation of the term of probation for all entrants into the Postal Service 
 from six months to two years is opposed to all s^'nse of reason and justice. 
 Taking into consideration the severe medical exo'.ination that a candidate 
 has to undergo, it is obvious that the original probation of six months 
 i.s quite sufficient time in which to test the stamina of the candidate as to his 
 capabilities of physical endurance for the work required, as it is certain if 
 there was the slightest doubt in the medical officer's mind as to hi.s fitness 
 h.^ would rejeet the candidate forthwith! The hardship of th" two year?*'
 
 H. M. Wilson, Hampstcad. 
 
 probation is very pronounced in the case of candidates coming from the 
 position of telegraph messenger, as most of the telegraph messengers liave 
 done four or five years' work in the service of the Department after under- 
 going a previous medical examination, and this at a time of life when other 
 lads are learning a trade or profession, and if, after a further two years' 
 service, they fail to pass the second medical examination, they have then 
 readied an age too advanced to begin acquiring the knowledge requisite for 
 a ticide or profession, and are consequently thrown into the ranks of the 
 flotsam and jetsam of the commeicial world, and become waifs and strays, 
 and lead a liie of chronic pauperism to the end of their days ; whereas, if 
 the probation only extended to six months, as formerly, they would have a 
 reasonable cliance of acquiring a sure and certain means of obtaining a decent 
 and respectable position in society. 
 
 The Chairman: Have you gone through four years' probation? Did you 
 have first to go through two years' proV)ation as an auxiliary, and then 
 two more years in order to get on the establishment? 
 A. I will deal with that presently. 
 
 Q. But is it so? As an auxiliary did you have to do two years' probation? 
 Mr. Walpole : An auxiliary does not have to do that ; it is only when 
 he applies to go on the established class that he has to do the two years' 
 probation. 
 The Chairman: Then an auxiliary has no probation to go through? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: And an auxiliary is not medically examined, is he? 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Have you had two years' probation yourself ? 
 A. I am doing that now, sir. We would further point out that the 
 two years' probation for these lads is not a just test, seeing that a practice 
 is now introduced of placing them on a midnight duty lasting until 7 a.m., 
 thus putting an unnatural strain upon them by confining them in the heated 
 atmosphere of the sorting office for tliree hours, and then sending them out 
 on a bitter winter morning for a 3 a.m. collection, thus, instead of de- 
 veloping any latent disease, sowing the seeds of it. In the case of the 
 candidate being recruited from the ranks of the auxiliary postmen, the two 
 years' probation reaches the height of absurdity, seeing that these men have 
 been performing postmen's duties for a mmil>er of years, and yet to get 
 permanently placed upon the established class they are compelled to undergo 
 a two years' probation to ascertain if they have sufficient physical endurance 
 to perform work which they have been actually doing for, in some instances, 
 as many as 15 or 16 years or more. 
 
 The Chairman : Can you give me any cases of men being rejected on 
 their two years' probation, after having passed through the auxiliary service? 
 A. I will give some cases presently. I am dealing with them with my 
 statement. The evidence of Dr. Wilson before this Committee fully demon- 
 strates the fact that in the case of the auxiliary the probation is unnecessary, 
 as he has given proof of his physical fitness to perform the work required 
 of him, and should have his appointment confirmed forthwith, upon his 
 passing the necessary medical and educational examinations. I should like 
 to make out my own case. And not only my own, but also that of three 
 other men in the same office as myself. One man has done two years' 
 more service than I have, as an auxiliary, making him 19 years. I have 
 done 17 years' service, and another man has done something like 14 or 15 
 years' service. You must take this point into consideration, that each one 
 of us m.en has been doing full-time duty for the last eight years. We have 
 not been doing a portion of the duty, like most of the auxiliaries, but we 
 have been doing actually the same amount of work as an established man 
 is required to do, the same amount of strain is put upon us, and, indeed, 
 it has been rather worse, because our hours of duty have been from 3 o'clock 
 in the morning, finishing practically at 11 o'clock — a continuous duty-«
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 89 
 
 and then in each case we have had to go on at the last delivery at night, 
 or at least the last collection, making it turned 11 o'clock before we got 
 to bed. I think we have given fair proof of our stamina, and shown that 
 we are capable of doing the work. The doctor has passed us without any 
 objectionable comment upon our physical abilities, without any shape or 
 form, yet we have to do two yeiirs' probation to show that we are capable 
 of doing the work we have been doing the last eight or nine years. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: You do not object to the medical examination, I suppose? 
 
 A. No, certainlv not. It is a proper protection on the part of the De- 
 partment to have' it. I do not think that a man should be put back even 
 if the doctor is against him. The doctor has known me all the time I 
 have been at Hampstead ; he has known me both personally and otherwise. 
 Last week I had to go to him at the end of six months for a further 
 examination, and I shall also have to go to him at the end of two years. 
 He made a remark to me— " Are you on two years' probation?" I 
 said "Yes." He said, "I never heard such an absurd thing in all my life." 
 
 Mr. Walpole: It didn't do you very much harm? 
 
 A. It does not do me any good. 
 
 Q. What harm can it do you ? 
 
 A. I will point out where the harm comes in presently. I have a case 
 here which I have taken from that point of view, and I think I shall be 
 able to show that in all probability it may do a man harm. At any rate 
 there is a chance of it. The all-round injustice of so long a term of proba- 
 tion is self-evident when the fact is taken into consideration that eacli 
 individual candidate Las to undergo a most severe medical examination upon 
 his initiation to the ranks of the established class, thus conclusively showing 
 that he is phy.sically qualified to bear the computed strain expected to be 
 placed upon him ; and then, after two years' experience of a postman's 
 arduous duties, and the constant exposure to all the inclemency of our very 
 variable climate, to be subjected to the same test, or, in most instances, 
 an even more severe one, than when — in the majority of cases — he was fresh 
 and untried, is, to say the least, a very unjust competition between the 
 laws of nature and economy. Another reason why tlie probationary term 
 should revert to the original period is tiie great difliculty experienced in 
 gaining other employment when it is ascertained that the reason for leaving 
 the Postal Service is medical disqualification. Very naturally, other em- 
 jdoyers of labour look askance at employing a man whom they legitimately 
 look upon as an invalid ; and this injustice is made more unbearable by 
 the unreliable nature of the examination which disqualifies a man, as there 
 are numerou.s cases on record where men have been disqualified by the 
 Departmental medical officer, ami then they have presented themselves 
 and successfully passed the medical examination for the army, and this 
 test, as is very well known, is as severe a one as any man can undergo. 
 I can give the names of two men from the N.W. District Office who were 
 refused by the medical officer at the end of two years. One Ls now in the 
 marines, and the other in the Army Medical Corps, and both these corps 
 have as severe a test as any other corps in the British army. 
 
 The Chairman : What are the names of the men ? 
 
 A. Akerman, who is in the marines, and Hunt, who is in the Army 
 Medical Corps. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The medical officer in the N.W. District happens to be 
 an army surgeon, does he not? 
 
 A. That I cannot answer. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What did lie reject them for? 
 
 A. No satisfactory reason was given to the men ; they were simply 
 nwdically disqualified. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Just repeat the names of the men. 
 
 A. Akerman and Hunt, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I will look into their cases.
 
 9B II. jM. UiiH.N, lliii'it-lcid. 
 
 Witness : I have also another case I wish to bring nefore the Committee 
 ia order to show the unreliable nature of the disi(iualitication. It is the 
 cass of a man at the Walbhamstow Office. He was an auxiliary, and he was 
 offered an established appointment. He went through the Civil Service 
 examination, and was examined by the doctor, and then he received the 
 following communication from the Civil Service Commission: — "Sir, I am 
 directed by the Civil Service Commissioners to acquaint you that on the 
 evidence before them they were unable to certify having ascertained 
 that you were free from any physical defect or disease which wouM 
 be likely to interfere with the proper discharge of your duty, and they 
 have therefore been unable to grant a certificate of qualification." Upon the 
 man receiving this he thought, as he was unable to tell from it what his 
 physical disqualification was, so he went to the London Hospital, in White- 
 chapel Road, on August 10, 1891, and he obtained the following certificate 
 from the medical officer who there exa'-nined him: — "This is to certify that 
 George Emeny, 20, is free from any disease of the lungs." This certificate 
 was signed by A. C. Elsmore, ^I.D. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is only a certificate that he is free from disease of the 
 lungs. 
 
 A. Wait a minute ; I have another one here. It is dated August 24, 
 and reads : — " This is to certify that George William Emeny, 20, is free from 
 any organic disease. — A. C. Ei.smokk, M.L)." 
 
 ilr. Walpole : We don't know why this man was disqualified ? 
 A. That is just the point. 
 
 Q. I presume the man had a right of appeal. He could appeal against 
 our decision. 
 
 A. He nught have done so ; but then an auxiliary is heavilj^ handicapped 
 in that respect bj^ having to fish out the sum of two guineas for the medical 
 referee's fee. It is a hard job for him to do that. 
 
 Q. Do the Commissioners charge two guineas fee on appeal? 
 A. Yes ; in the OHicial Circular it is stated that the men have a right 
 of appeal on payment of two guineas. Wliy I know it is a fact is because 
 our Federation, in a case where a man lias Ijeen medically rejected like 
 this, has now adopt-eil the rule that we will provide the fee for the man 
 to appeal. The Department refund it if the man passes the examination. 
 We propose to provide the fee for any member of the Federation who is 
 medically dis({nalified, and to put the matter to the test. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: You say the man got that communication from the Civil 
 Service Commissioners? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The Civil Service Commissioners use our Departmental 
 ofiicers for the purposes of examination. 
 
 A. It slipped my memory for a moment, but I believe that at the time 
 thLj man was examined he had no right of appeal. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think you are mixing up two things. There was always 
 a right of appeal. 
 
 A. The Civil Service Commissioners wrote to this man that they could 
 not issue a certificate of qualification to him to the effect that he was free 
 from jjhysical defects, yet he goes to the London Hospital and is there 
 examined again, and declared to be free not only from disease of the lungs, 
 but from any other organic disease. 
 
 Q. 15ut organic disease and physical defects are not always the same thing. 
 A. Tlie man is not informed what is the matter with him. 
 Q. It does not state what is the physical defect, but it is pretty evident 
 that the examination the man had undergone must have disclosed something ; 
 perhaps it was a case of " flat feet." 
 
 A. Don't you think, sir, that when this man presented himself for 
 examination at the Ijondon Hospital, with tlie knowledge that that is one 
 of the reasons for disqualification, he wouhl have subjected his feet to 
 examination, as well as other parts of the body?
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 91 
 
 Q. It is not enough that the certificate does not cover that. 
 
 A. I should imagine from the fact of the man presenting liimself for 
 examination in that way, and undergoing it, there was really nothing what- 
 ever the matter with li'im. I know that if I were an insurance agent, and 
 qualified to give certificates, I should feel myself justified in recommending 
 hiin as a first-class life. Another and final point is the undesirability of 
 leaving so unjust a means of retaliation uj)on a man in the liands of the 
 Department, as a man in two yeans discovers many anomalies in the Postal 
 Service wliich his sense of right and wrong induces him to endeavour to get 
 remedied, and in this way (although doing Ids duty efficiently and giving 
 every satisfaction otherwise) makes himself very objectionable, and this 
 medical examination is a very excellent extinguisher for him. 
 
 Q. That is a very serious charge. Can you give us any case? 
 
 A. I will bear out the statement if you will allow me. Doubtless this 
 stiitement will be looked upon with a certain amount of susj^icion, as it will 
 be thought that a man engaged in the honourable profession of a doctor 
 would not be amenable to official pressure in this manner, but evidence can 
 be supplied of cases where men have been too ill to attend for their first 
 duty (officially known as the G.P. duty), and when they have received an 
 order to visit the doctor, they have been informed that it is officially marked 
 "Absent from G.P. duty," and, therefore, he cannot have a certificate to 
 say he is unfit iSt' duty, whether such is the fact or no ; and, therefore, 
 if medical officers are open to pressure in such cases, irrespective of their 
 professional judgment, they are just as amenable to official pressure in 
 other cases. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wliere does the medical officer come in there? 
 
 The Chairman : The medical officer, it is suggested, puts on an official 
 mark ? 
 
 A. The rule of the Department is that a man shall not see the doctor 
 without an order from liis immediate superior. In district offices the in- 
 spector on duty superintends, and when this man went to the official medical 
 officer the latter knew from the mark on the order that he had not been on 
 the General Post delivery, and he therefore told the man, " I cannot give 
 you a certificate relieving vou from duty on account of being ill to-day, 
 because j'ou were not on Creneral Post duty." Tiiat is an intimation, or 
 rather an insinuation, I suppose, tkat the man was a malingerer. That, as 
 a matter of fact, he had overslept himself, and that it was only a subterfuge 
 to get off duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You are not now speaking of the medical examination 
 when a man joins the establishment, but only when he is asking for sick 
 le^ive ? 
 
 A. I am only speaking of the pressure that is brought to bear on the 
 doctor. This is a corollary of my statement that I brought forward, that 
 this is an unjust weapon in the hands of the Department to be used against 
 the men. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : What is ? 
 
 A. This medical examination at the end of two j'ears. 
 
 Q. Would it not apply to the examination of any time? 
 
 A. Certainly, whenever a man was ordered to undergo one. 
 
 Q. But you object to the medical examination? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not object to it in the case of new entrants in tlie 
 Service. No reasonable men would raise an objection to being examined 
 agam at the end of six months, but to extend it over two years is very 
 unreasonable, especially in the case of men who have given 15 or 16 years' 
 service to the Department, who have during that time been doing full-time 
 duty, and who have jjassed the first examination. I contend there should l>e 
 a custom that for those who have thus undergone it, it should l>e sufficient. I 
 »m qualifying this pf^rt of my statement as to the unreliable nature gf thg
 
 92 H. M. Wilson, Hampstead. 
 
 medical disqualification at the end of two years. I say it is a great in- 
 justice ; it means retaliation in the hands of the Department if a man 
 makes himself objectionable. Naturally gentlemen of high and honourable 
 position, such as doctors, would be supposed not to allow pressure to be 
 bi ought to bear on them, and I have brought this case forward to show 
 thai where a man wishes to get a certificate, official pressure may be brought 
 to bear on the doctor, and if it is done in one case, it is just as likely 
 to be done in another. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I do not see where the pressure on the doctor comes in. 
 Do you mean that because a man did not attend the Gleneral Post delivery 
 the intimation of that is the pressure? 
 
 A. No, sir. The pressure is this : a man is supposed to present himself 
 if he is too ill to attend the first delivery — -he is supposed to present himself 
 at the office as soon as possible, or if he is too ill to do that, to send word 
 so that a; doctor may be sent down to see him. That is, supposing he is too 
 debilitated to get up in the morning and come to the office. Probably 
 the man will reach the office about 9 or 9.30. and he will get an order from 
 the superintending officer to visit the doctor. When the superintending 
 officer gives him the order to visit the doctor he marks in the corner that 
 the man was absent from General Post delivery, and when a man gets to 
 the doctor, the latter, directly he sees that mark, refuses to give him a 
 certificate that he was ill. >^ 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: However ill he may be? 
 
 A. Yes ; pressure is put liy the official mark on the paper. 
 
 The Chairman : Your allegation, Mr. Wilson, is that there is an official 
 rule that any man going to a doctor for a certificate, who brings on the 
 order for the interview a notice that he has missed the General Post duty, 
 then, as a matter of course, he gets no certificate? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is taken for granted that he is a malingerer. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Is that so? It is a tremendous accusation. 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have a case here to show what it amounts to. On Jan. 
 21. 1896, a man named Harper, belonging to the S.W. District, failed to 
 attend the General Post duty, and arrived at 9 a.m., and asked for an order 
 to see the doctor. The inspector endorsed the order, " Absent from General 
 Post duty." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And that was correct ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am not questioning the correctness of it. He saw the doctor, 
 who, after asking him a few questions, stated that on the face of tlie 
 insj)<?ctor's endorsement of tl>e order. unles.s the man was seriously ill, he 
 could not grant him a certificate. He told him to get some poppy heads, 
 and to make a poultice, and finally, after various statements, granted him 
 two days' leave. M'liich was subsequently extended to five days. This man, 
 I should have said, was a postman. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Tliis is like the case of your waiter; the man got 
 exactly what he wanted. 
 
 The Chairman : What was the matter with him? 
 
 A. I presume it was face-ache or neuralgia. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : At any rate the doctor let him ofif attending duty, and 
 later his leave was extended. 
 
 A. Afterwards, but not in the first place. If the man had not contested 
 the point, the doctor would, as he told him, have refused to grant a certi- 
 ficate on the face of the inspector's endorsement. 
 
 The Chairman : It does sometimes happen that people do oversleep them- 
 selves, and try to get off the penalties they thereby incur by endeavouring 
 to get a medical certificate? 
 
 A. Well, I have never done it myself. 
 
 Q. But these things do occur sometimes? 
 
 A. I should not like to answer for it ; I do not mind taking responsibility 
 upon myself for things I actual]}' know, but I cannot .say that I have any
 
 London Auxiliaries' Case. 93 
 
 positive knowledge that this does occur. All I can say is that I have a list 
 of men here from the S.W. District Office who were refused. I do not know 
 why ; I have tried to find out, f)ut I have not got the information. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : This accusation is a very serious one, but I must point 
 out that the case you have adduced, as far as it goes, shows that the doctor 
 on examination did. in spite of this endorsement, give the man two days' 
 leave, which was subsequently extended to five. 
 
 A. I have had the man's duties handed to me, and I do not think there 
 is any likelihood of his malingering. He has been on at 4 a.m. for two 
 yeai-s, and has only been late eight times. The longest he has been late has 
 been 40 minutes. He never missed a duty before. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That very man ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But he got his certificate ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but lie would not have done had he not contested the 
 doctor's opinion. The doctor told him that on the face of the endorsement 
 of the order by the inspector he could not grant him a certificate. It was 
 only after a protest on the man's part, and on his insisting on an examina- 
 tion that the doctor did examine him ; otherwise there was a 'prima facie 
 case against him, as the certificate was sufficient to enable the doctor to refuse 
 thi; leave. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : To refuse it unless he had reason to suppose that the man 
 was ill. Is that not a reasonable position to take up? 
 
 A. I do not think so. 
 
 Q. You understand that you are basing upon this a tremendous charge 
 against the medical officer? 
 
 A. It is a thing commonly done m all the districts. 
 
 Q. The charge you are basing on this is the improper withholding of 
 medical certificates for entrance into tlie Service? 
 
 A. I am only showing the probability that pressure will be brought to 
 bear to that extent. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you any evidence whatever of the improper witli- 
 holding of certificates after probation? 
 
 A. The unfortunate part is that the withholding of a certificate dis- 
 qualifies a man. 
 
 Q. But have you any case where a man, after probation, has been rejected 
 without good reason? 
 
 A. I take it that the fact of a man ]i-issing into the army is sufficient 
 evidence that he was not properly disqualified ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I understand he was rejected on appointment, and not 
 after two years' probation? 
 
 A. Yes ; it was after two years' probition. 
 
 The Chairman: Were both men you have named auxiliaries? 
 
 A. I do not know whether they were auxiliaries, or whether they came 
 from the Telegrapli Service. They were appointed the same as I am at 
 the present time, but at the end of two years' probation they were rejected. 
 I have the case of another man in the same office — a. man named Duncan. 
 He was disqualified, and entered the army, and then he was bought out by 
 his friends. He is serving as an auxiliary po.stman at the present time. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He seems to have had a chequered career. What ofiice 
 is he in? 
 
 A. He was in a N.W. District office. He was put upon two years' proba- 
 tion, but he was disqualified by the medical officer, and thereupon joined the 
 army. 
 
 Q. Do you know the date of this? 
 
 A. No doubt it can be ascertained. I believe it was two years ago. 
 
 Q. What regiment did he join? 
 
 A. I have not that information. 
 
 Mr. Churchfield : He passed into the Marine Artillery.
 
 94 H. M, Wilson, Hampstead. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I wonder he joined iis again aft€r his experience. 
 
 A. So do I. sir. 
 
 Q. He evidently tlioiiglit better of us than you do. 
 
 A. I do not know, sir. We would further impress upon you that candi- 
 <lates for appointment have, with the exception of a very few cases, already 
 served frojii four to five years' probation, either as telegraph messengers 
 or auxiliary postmen. We therefore trust you will give this question your 
 earnest consideration, and that j-ou will see your way clear to recommnid 
 that the old six months' probation be reverted to. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you any evidence of any case wliere a man who has 
 made himself inconvenient to the Department has been medically rejected? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I make no charge of that sort. I am only saying it is very 
 clear that such a thing might hang over a man. 
 
 Q. I understand you make tliat as a complaint. You see it is a serious 
 charge to make against our medical officer. 
 
 A. All I can say is that I know that in former years men liave been 
 discharged. I do not mean that tlie Dep^irttneiit have deliberately gone out 
 of their way to do that, but still there is a risk of its occurring. Now, 
 the man I was speaking of the otlier <lay — Whickers— declares he had to 
 take liis pension sooner than he otherwise would have done, for the .=-inipIe 
 reason that he took part in the agitation in London when stripes were 
 first issued to postmen. 
 
 Q. How old was Whickers when he was jiensioned? 
 
 A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Do you happen to know that ha was 70 years of age? 
 
 A. He was nothing like that, sir, when he was pensioned. I do not 
 think he was more than that when he died. He was serving as an aux- 
 iliarv in the Post Office when I entered it 17 years ago. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: When did he die? 
 
 A. Not more than two years ago at the very outside. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Your suggestion is that the medical officers were tam- 
 pered with by the Department? 
 
 A. No, sir ; oh, no, not in the least ! That is the statement put forward 
 by the man himself. Mr. Walpole asked me if I could give any instance 
 of a case where pressure was brought to bear, and therefore I named this 
 case. The man always asserted it. 
 
 Q. You do not yourself adopt that view? 
 
 A. I do not adopt that as a hard and fast line. 
 
 Q. In this particular case do you suggest it occurred? You are making 
 a very serious charge, and you must either make it or withdraw it. 
 
 A. In this particular case I do not suggest it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Did you know Wliickers ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. At the time when he was got rid of as an auxiliary? 
 
 A. Yes ; he was then in a very infirm state of health." 
 
 Q. Then where does your charge come in? 
 
 A. I think you are under a misapprehension as to the facts. 
 
 Q. Do you suggest that he thought he might have gone on? 
 
 A. Not as an auxiliary, but he thought so when he had to take his 
 pension as an established man. At that time he thought he might have 
 been kept on some years longer. 
 
 Q. When was it he took his pension? 
 
 A. I cannot say. He was in the Service as an auxiliary when I came in. 
 How long before that he took his pension I cannot say, but it was previous 
 to 1879. Mr. Churchfield t«lls me that it was 17 years ago that he took 
 his pension. I came into the Service in February, 1879. He was an aux- 
 iliary then, and I presume he had just taken liis pension. 
 
 The Chairman : Thank you. 
 
 The witness then witJidrew,
 
 H. BOALER, N.W.D.O. 
 
 Parckl Postv 
 
 Westminster, Monday, February 17, 1896. 
 
 Henry Boaler, of tlie N.W.D.O., was next examined as follows: — 
 
 The Chairman : Are you a parcel postman or a letter-carrier? 
 
 A. I am a letter-carrier. 
 
 Q. And you are going to give evidence from the point of view of the 
 ordinary letter-carrier, and not of a parcel pnstnlan? 
 
 A. Ye.s, my lord. 
 
 Q. How long have you Ijeen in the Service? 
 
 A. I entered as a telegrapii messenger in 1872. I was appointed second- 
 class letter-carrier in 1875. and first-class in 1879. 
 
 Q. Then you are at your maximum now? 
 
 A. Y&s, my lord. 
 
 The Ciiairman : Then go on with your statement. 
 
 Witness : My lord and gentlemen, you have heard the statement of the 
 j)revious witness with reference to the separation of the letter and parcel 
 liranciie.s. The statement that I have to make is upon the same subject, 
 t)'.'t from a letter-carrier's point of view. 1 say "letter-carriers," gentlemen, 
 because previous to the estaV)lishment of the Parcel Post that was our 
 designation. I myself was appointed lirst a "second-class letttir-carrier," 
 and then a "first-class !etter-c«rrier." Perhaps it would be well for me to 
 explain liow we lo.st that title, and how Ave came to be burdened with the 
 delivery of parcels. I say " burdened." gentlemen, because tie late Mr. 
 Raikes" (P.M.G.) recognised them as a burden. In an interview upon the 
 same subject at G.P.O. on July 24tii. 1390, lie remarked — "The parcel 
 (juestion is no doubt a great one. I should be extremely glad, so far as 
 jiostmen are concerned, if they ha<l never been burdened with them. I 
 always think they were introduced hastily, and the wliole system being done 
 in a hurry, has perhaps not worked quite so smoothly as was intended 
 in the firs't instance." On tlie 1st of August, 1883, the Parcel Post was 
 established, and, as is usual when special and important duties are to be 
 performed, letter-carriers were called into request. They were the pioneers 
 of the movement, performing the whole of the sorting and delivering, and 
 finally instructed the new entrants, which at that date were unestablished 
 men ; and so well did they perform their duties that they were afterwards 
 rewarded with a new title — " postman " — which brought with it the grievance 
 fiom which we are now endeavouring to get relieved, viz., the delivery of 
 parcels. This had been feared, Vjut an assurance was given that it would 
 not interfere with the duties of a letter-carrier. This, I am sorry to say, 
 has not been the case, as I will endeavour to prove. This Varanch was 
 establislied to supply a public want, therefore a public convenience. But, 
 gentlemen, it is now my duty to explain that in a great many instances it 
 is an inconvenience — 1st, to letter-carriers, and 2nd, to the public. It is an 
 inconvenience to letter-carriers for the following reasons : It is detrimental
 
 96 H. BoALER, N.W.D.O. 
 
 to the proper performance of their duties, owing to the fact that the greatest 
 number of parcels for delivery fall upon the two and the most responsible 
 duties of the day, viz., the first and last. In my own office, for r.n in- 
 stance, N.W.D.O., 200 parcels on a G.P. delivery is a common occurrence, 
 and during the Christmas pressure as many as 800 per day were delivered 
 Vjy letter-cu-riers. The heaviest periods of the year for letters are also the 
 heaviest for parcels. And tlie men who suffer most are those who are on the 
 most responsible and heaviest in the delivery of letters. The inconvenience 
 to the public is caused in the following way: — Although the number of 
 parcels to be dealt with is limited to five on the G.P. delivery, five parcels 
 will often add 10 to 15 lbs. to an alre^idy heavy delivery of letters, and 
 must of a necessity, when it is considered that every parcel causes a stop- 
 page of from two to three minutes to dispose of, and in many cas&s they 
 have to be returned through being unable to obtain an answer, which thus 
 causes a delay of at least 15 minutes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You say they have to be returned very often. Is it a 
 very common thing? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is a common occurrence, liecause at the early morning de- 
 livery business shops are not always open by 8 o'clock. And in other cases 
 the servants are not up, or if they are you cannot get people to come to 
 the door to take the parcels. They think it is a letter, and can be put in 
 the box. I have frequently had to take p;ircels back. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But you would not take parcels out to shops not likely 
 to be open? 
 
 A. If we know that shops do not open until a certain time we should 
 leave the parcels behind. 
 
 Q. I presume that postmen would know better than any one else what time 
 the shops open? 
 
 A. There are a great many cases in which it is not safe to leave the 
 parcels behind. We may think the shop would not be open, and very likely 
 it might be a very important i)arcel. Yet by the time a man returned from 
 his fiist delivery it would probably be time for him to start out again, 
 and then he would be called upon to explain why he had left the parcel 
 behind. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: But don't you constantly leave them behind? 
 
 A. Yes ; in well-known cases where we are sure the shop would not l>e 
 open, but in doubtful cases we take them out. This delay of at least 15 
 minutes to a mo.st important diss — ^city gentlemen and local tradesmen — 
 is of great moment. The former by having to leave by certain trains to 
 attend busines.'5. and who do not receive their letters until their return 
 at night, and the latter in carrying out the orders of his customers. It is 
 not an unfrequent occurrence that our deliveries are not finished at 10 
 minutes or a quarter to nine, and gentlemen often come to me and ask if 
 there are any letters for them, as they have to catch a certain train and get 
 into the City by a given time. This is not only worrying to the postman, 
 but it is annoying to the gentlemen themselves. Tlie postman gets dis- 
 credit for being late. He is often threatened Ui be reported for loitering ; 
 but we cannot possibly help it owing to the delay caused 1m^ these parcels. 
 It is only upon those walks where a number of parcels axe taken out by 
 the men that this annoyance exists. 
 
 Sii* F. Mowatt : Do you say that the average number of parcels taken out 
 is more than five? 
 
 A. We never take out more than five. 
 
 Q. Then the delay is caused by the delivery or non-delivery of five parcels? 
 
 A. We cannot get rid of parcels as quickly as we can letters. Anyhow, 
 it takes at least two minutes to get an answer at the door. The servant 
 does not alwajs come to the door the first time of ringing or knocking, 
 thinking, probably, that a letter has been placed in the box. In nine times 
 out of ten we have to knock or ring twice. I have timed myself times after
 
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 Pan;ol l^ost. 97 
 
 times, .and I find that it takes two or three minutes before I have been able 
 to dispose of the jjarcel. 
 
 The Chairman : But the same tiling occurs when you have to collect 
 extra fees? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; and all these things help to make us late. 
 
 Q. Have you not to collect fees much oftener? 
 
 A. Yes ; we are continually dealing with registered letters, and collecting 
 fees for insufficient postage, etc. The postmen are consequently continually 
 finishing late, and a certain amount of pressure is brought to bear upon 
 him so that he shall finish the morning delivery by a certain time in the 
 morning. If he is after a given time he has to write and explain the reason 
 why. It is rather a critical thing to say, but I believe that a number 
 of the men, sooner than write and explain, will falsify their time in the 
 books, becaiLse all explanations as to finisliing late go against them. It 
 will, therefore, be seen that to a letter-carrier with a heavy delivery of 
 letters, five parcels is a great consideration, as when thus encumljered and 
 hurrying to prevent a late finish may, in a great many instances, account 
 fo" the mis-delivery of letters. I should like to substantiate this to a 
 certain extent. There are a great number of matters for which a postman 
 may be punished by loss of stripes, extra duty, etc., and this is one of tlie 
 chief causes. We have to ciirry parcels, books, etc., and often a man's bag 
 is filled up to the top. He can only just catch hold of the top of it, and yet he 
 has to carry it from the bottom to the top of warehouses. It is bulky and heavy, 
 awkward and inconvenient, and he cannot get hold of it properly. When 
 he is lumbered up with parcels he is apt to overlook the letters, and put 
 tliem into the wrong boxes. I l)elieve myself that this is a great cause of 
 mis-delivery of letters. A man might easily overlook a post card or a thin 
 foieign letter, and they find it very difficult to sort these things out; they 
 get mixed up together, and it makes it very easy for them to put letters 
 in the wrong boxes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But whether he has parcels in hi.s bag or not, he mav do 
 that? 
 
 A. There would not be the same possibilities as when a man is lumltored 
 up with ])arce!s and books. Probably both his hands will be full, and he 
 Would not have an opportunity of looking at the letters so thorouglily as he 
 could wish. The carrying of parcels is also dangerous to correspondence, 
 as in the instance of sucli parcels as tin, wooden, and cardboard boxes, 
 butter, Devonshire cream, fruits, flowers, etc. And I have in.stances of 
 game, partridges, rabbits, fish, and the whole of these have to be carried 
 in the same bag as the letters. It is really dangerous to the correspondence. 
 And any damage, such as tearing, soiling, etc., is seriously noticed if 
 reported. I might say that during tlie fruit and flowei- season we have to 
 carry cardboard boxes and such things containing stra\\ berries, cherries, 
 and flowers, which are all mixed up in our bags. The weight may be 
 light, but it is the mixing up with our bundles of letters and book packets 
 that Me complain of. I have had boxes burst and the juice pour out u}>on 
 the letters, then it has been necessary to explain to the public how thia 
 has occurred. I have had, in consequence, to stand bullying, and have 
 been threatened to l>e reported. I do not think that these reports are really 
 made, but if they were I believe the Department would find some means of 
 dealing with the difiiculty. In the suburban offices parcel duties are still 
 heavier, letter-carriers taking out 6, 8, and 10 parcels on one delivery. 
 During the Christmas pressure, at one of the.se offices the parcels were so 
 numerous that they had to make a special delivery of them before they could 
 cope with the letters. They also have to make up and receive parcel ham- 
 pers, and are held responsible for their contents, also their safe des- 
 patch. They have further to advise and despatch foreign parcels, collect 
 parcels on six collections out of eight, "there beuig only two made by th« 
 parcel postmau." As many as fourteen are collected with the letters by 
 
 D
 
 98 H. UoAi.Ku, N.W.D.O. 
 
 one man, and the fact of his doing this is greatly detrimental to his keeping 
 his proper time. He has to sign for the parcels, and that will occupy a minute 
 or two, so that he loses time upon his collections. The whole of the above 
 duties carry with them responsibilities, and with them the possibilities 
 of iiicreasmg the already numerous chances of punishment. I may also add 
 that in the ycir 1891 parcel postmen were made an established class, and 
 this, with the erection of large depots in various parts of London, goes to 
 piove tlie enormous increase in the number of })arcels, and the necessity of 
 picfierly dealing with them. In conclusion, gentlemen, I therefore hof)e that, 
 as our duties as letter-carriers are of sucli a responsible and arduous nature, 
 which the numerous witnesses you have heard have tried to prove, you 
 will give your strongest recommendation for the separation of the letter 
 and jxircel branches. 
 
 nie Chairman : How many men are there in your own office? 
 
 A. On the General Post I speak of there are 66. 
 
 Q. In the N.W. District Office? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How many deal with the Parcel post alone? 
 
 A. The whole of them. But parcels are only dealt out in the most 
 responsiblo walks, while in the poorer walks there would be hardly any 
 parcels at all. It is on the most responsible walks that the difficulty arises. 
 
 Q. Are there any men in your district office who deal with the Parcel 
 Post alone? 
 
 A. There are some at the depot branch, where they deal with the larger 
 parcels, those, for instance, weighing 4^ lbs. charged over. We get them up 
 to 4^d., but at the depot tliey send them indiscriminately up to the full 
 charge. Sometimes we get a 6d. iwrcel, but it would be a small one ; in 
 fact, we get the smaller parcels. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then you only get small parcels ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And a 4^d. parcel would weigh 2 lbs.? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you give us any ca.se where a man has been overburdened with 
 parcels ? 
 
 A. In the suburban offices at Hampst-ead and Kentish Town, men fre- 
 quently take out j>arcels up to the price of 9d. and Is. 
 
 The Chairman : We only want your experience in your own office. 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I have stited what go€S? on there.
 
 GEORGE HAROLD STUART. 
 
 Parcel, Postmen's Case. 
 
 Wbstmunstkk, Monday. February 17. 1896, 
 
 Mr. George Harold Stuart called and examined: — 
 
 The Chairman: I believe vou are in the Parcel Post department? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In the S.W. District? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in that ottice? 
 
 A. I have been in the S.W. Office since last November twelve months; 
 but I have been in the Service altogether over five j-ears ; F have been ap- 
 pointed about five years. 
 
 Q. Did you begin as an ordinary letter-carrier? 
 
 A. No ; I began as a parcel postman. 
 
 Q. Have you been in the Parcel Post department all through? 
 
 A. Yes. I began as au unestablisiied man in the Leicester Square Parcel 
 Dejiot, and at the period when the pircel postmen were esbiiblished I 
 gained mv appointment. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: In 1891 then? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : What is your particular duty ? Do you deliver parcel.^, 
 or do you deal with them in the office? 
 
 A. I deliver and collect, and assist witii tlie sorting for parcel work 
 gererally. 
 
 Q. Do you deliver with a cart? 
 
 A. I do with a hand-cart. Of course, many dt-liveries are done with 
 vai'S ; others, on the contrary, are done with a hand-cart. The first ques- 
 tion I have to bring before the Committee is the Christmas liox question as 
 affecting parcel postmen. In bringing before you the case of the estaljlished 
 postmen on parcel duties, it may be as well for me to state that there is 
 no difference in rank between established letter-carriers and estahliwhed 
 parcel postmen ; in fact, the terms letter-carrier and j)arcel postmen are 
 simply matters of convenience, the whole body being cl'issed under the 
 heading of established postmen. Similar examinations have to be jiassed ; 
 wages and increment are identical ; and the same rule governs all. It is one 
 of these rules — No. 4^1 — which causes what I may term the chief special 
 grievance under which we labour. This rule, while permitting letter-carriers 
 to solicit Christmas boxes, contains the following clause : " You are strictly 
 forbidden to solicit gratuities on account of the delivery or collection of parcels." 
 It will, of course, be ovious that this places the parcel ])ostmen at a con- 
 siderable i)ecuniary disadvantage ; for example, should two men enter the 
 Service at the same time, one of whom is employed as a letter postman 
 while the other is appointed to the parcel Vjranch, the letter man will, 
 in the course of his service, receive a considerable sum more than the 
 parcel man. A question on the subject of parcel postmen being forbidden 
 to solicit Chri.ifcm'.is boxes was asked in the House of Commons by Mr.
 
 100 George Hahom) Stuart. 
 
 Cunninghaine Graham, on February 21st, 1890, and tlie then Postmaster- 
 Geperal said in answer: — "The custom of letter-carriers receiving Christmas 
 boxes is a very old one, and, so far as they are concerned, the Department 
 recognise the difficulty that would attend any interference with it. But it 
 has apj>eared both practicable and advisable to prevent the exten^iion of the 
 custom to new classes, and with this view the solicitation of Christmas 
 Vjoxes by Post Office servants other than letter-carriers is prohibited on 
 pain of' dismissal." I admit that this reply fairly states the state of 
 affairs at that period (1890) ; but it must be borne in mind th.at a most 
 material change has been effected in the parcel staff since that date, the 
 work being then performed by unestablished men whose duties were com- 
 par.ilively of but small responsibility. In 1891, owing, no doubt, to the 
 inciease in the number of parcels dealt with, the extension of the 
 Foreign and Colonial Parcel Post, and the introduction of the registration 
 system in the Parcel Post, which made our duties, always quite as arduous 
 as letter duties, equally responsible, all unestablished men who were eligible 
 received appointments as second-class postmen, and were thus placed on an 
 equality with letter-carriers. Shortly after, classificjition was abolished, 
 an i all — letter-carriers and parcel postmen — became one class. By thus 
 raising us from the new classe.s to which the Postmaster-General alluded to 
 the classes which are allowed to solicit Christmas boxes, I contend the 
 Department incurred a responsibility which it has made no attempt to 
 meet — the responsibility of allowing us to solicit Christmas boxes or of 
 granting us an allowance in lieu of that permission. I have no desire to 
 question the wisdom of the Department's policy in seeking to limit the 
 practice of Christmas boxing, Imt I certainly think it should be definitely 
 laid down as a first principle that the cost of this should fall upon the 
 Dejmrtment itself, and not upon its servants or any section of them. The 
 natural and inevitable results of what is considered an unjust and unfair 
 rule are to be observed almost every year. Men try to evade and defy it, 
 and, should the breach of discipline be discovered, are severely punished by 
 suspension, infliction of punishment duty, reprimand, etc., to which is 
 added the galling circumstance that oth6r men of the same class are per- 
 mitted, and indeed encouraged, to do what they have been punished for 
 doing. I may mention that there is a circumstance which sorely tempts 
 parcel postmen to break Rule ^.4. Cerkxin firms and others put aside sums 
 eacli year as parcel postmen's Christmas boxes. Now, the only way to get 
 them is by asking for them, for people naturally wait to be asked, thinking 
 that by so doing they ensure the gift falling into the right hands. We 
 are thus placed in a most invidious position. If we ask for what is 
 practically our own we risk dismis.sal ; if we do not, we lose a most desirable 
 addition to our wages. Gentlemen, it is dishonourable to the Department 
 that poor men should be placed in such a position. To conclude, I would 
 remind you of a remark which fell from your lordship during Mr. Warner's 
 case. You said it seemed hard that men on collecting duties should receive 
 no Christmas boxes. If it is liard for these men who have this emoliunent 
 to look to in the futiu'e at any rate, I put it to you that it is very much 
 harder for us who not only receive nothing now, Vmt have no prospect of 
 ever doing so. and I confidently ask you therefore to recommend that an 
 allowance be granted us so that parcel postmen may at length reap all the 
 advantages to wliich, as established officers, they have a right, 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, I fancy that parcel postmen do receive a 
 considerable amount of Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. Not a considerable amount without endangering their situation. 
 
 Q. I am not talking about endangering their situation.?, but I happen to have 
 made soine private inquiries on the su1)jeit, and I have been surprised to find that 
 in almost every ca.«e where a considerable Christmas box was given to letter 
 postmen, a sum was also given to the parcel pwtmen ; that is so, is it not?
 
 Parcel Postmen's Case. 101 
 
 A. It is not so generally, but it is so in some cases. I think that shows 
 corclusively that this rule is unjust and unfair. 
 
 Q. I understand the rule only prohibits solicitation? 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. It does not prohibit the reception? 
 
 A. No. That, of course, is so, but then you cannot get them very well 
 without asking for them. People do not run in the street after you with 
 the money. That is the position the Department places us in. 
 
 Q. What I wanted to find out is, whether your experience as a parcel 
 postman is such as to justify you in the belief that if the solicitixtion of 
 Christmas boxes were proliibited to the letter postmen, the public would 
 cease to give? 
 
 A. I think they would, liecause the public do not recognise these differ- 
 ences which the Department make ; in fact, we ourselves cannot understand 
 why they should make any difference. We contend that our work is in 
 every respect equal to letter work. I will deal with that portion of the 
 question later on. but I will siy now that the public do not recognise these 
 differences, and if they cease giving them to letter-carriers, tliey would 
 cease giving them to us as postmen. Therefore, if the letter-carriers receive 
 compensation and we do not, we should be unfairly treated. 
 
 Q. If it could be told us that it was the invariable rule that the parcel 
 postmen got nothing, tliat would be a very strong argument in favour of the 
 idea that the public would ceise to give to the letter postmen if they 
 were prohibited from soliciting ; I am afraid that argument will not hold 
 good, quite? 
 
 A. The public give (Jliristmas boxes to parcel postmen, not out of 
 generosity, but simply out of a sense of justice ; they do not think it is right 
 that the Dapartment sliould make these invidious distinctions. I remember 
 myself a man asking me why I had not c-^lled in for my Christma.s box. 
 I said, " I must not do so : the Department do not allow me to solicit." 
 " As a matter of fact," he said " I suppose you receive more money than the 
 letter-carriers?" I said, "No." "Do you mean to tell me that you do not 
 receive more money than the letter-carriers, and that you are not allowed 
 to solicit? I believe they get a great deal." I said, "We do not receive 
 any more," and, as a matter of fact, his remark then was, "I never heard 
 such damned cheek in my life." 
 
 Q. I hope he acted up to that opinion? 
 
 A. You see our case is that the letter men are asking that these Cliristma3 
 boxes should be abolished, and that they should be granted compensation. 
 If compensation is granted to the letter postmen, and Ave receive nothing, 
 we do not consider that would ba fair. Of course we admit that the public 
 do, to a large extent, give us these gra-tuities, even in face of this rule; 
 but tlie men have to break the rule and to risk dismissal, and men have been 
 dismissed for breaking tliis rule and frequently otherwi.se puni-shed. You 
 seo it is not necessary for the public to report the man for importunity 
 as in the case of a letter-carrier. If. through any circumstance, it comes 
 to the luiowledge of the Postmaster or any official of tlie Department that 
 the man has solicited, he mav be reported and severely punished. As we 
 are established men. and in other points equal to letter-carriers, we do not 
 consider that this is fair to us. We consider that all the advantages which 
 letter postmen hive we should receive ; and exactly the same with com- 
 pensation — if any compensation is granted to the letter men with regard 
 to this matter, we consider that we have a right to be considered accord- 
 
 Mr. Llewell>Ti Smith : Are the parcel postmen interchaiigeable with letter- 
 carriers? When you get into the Service, when you are once a parcel posfc^ 
 man are you always a parcel postman? 
 
 A. That is so in the chiff depots ; it is «o in MouTit. Pleasant, and t
 
 102 Geokge Harold Stuaut. 
 
 believe it is so in Bird Street, but at the South-Western Office it is not so. 
 At the South-Western tlie men are allowed to go upstairs into the letter 
 walks, but we object to that system. I have a case in point, and 1 can go 
 into the details of it. A man'^has four or five years at the rough work of 
 the parcels, and then lie can go upstairs, but certain restrictions are placed 
 upon him. There has; to be a certain time on town duty ; that is to say, 
 on the re.serve upstairs, and consequently we would lose our seniority up 
 to that time. We object to going on the other branch altogether. 
 
 Q. In spite of the Christmas boxes ': 
 
 A. We hoj)e to get compensation. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Still there has been no question of compensation up to this, 
 and you still prefer to remain as parcel postmen? 
 
 A. We should not prefer it if the letter men received compensation and 
 we did not. We contend that we liave a perfect right to receive just as 
 much money as any other postmen. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, what are your Christmas V>oxes worth — your owh 
 I mean ? 
 
 A. My own? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. Without solicitation? 
 
 Q. Without solicitation; I assume you obey the rule? 
 
 A. About Is. 6d. 
 
 Q. What! Is. 6d. a year? 
 
 A. Yes ; without solicitation. 
 
 Q. Then the whole comj>ensation we have got to give you is Is. 6d. a year? 
 
 A. Nothing of the kind. I cont<^nd, as a matter of fact, that the De- 
 I>artment has robbed us during the years we have been established by not 
 allowing us to solicit. 
 
 Q. The Department has made a rule, and you entered the Service with the 
 full knowledge of that rule? 
 
 A. But when we entered the Service we were not told whether we were 
 to be parcel postmen or letter men ; we had to go where we were put. 
 
 Q You entered as a parcel postman, did you not? 
 
 A. I entered as an unestablished parcel postman. 
 
 Q. You were then made an established parcel postman? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. So the Department has kept faith W'th you all tlie way through, 
 lias it not? 
 
 A- No, I do not consider they have. When I entered the Service as an 
 unestablished jjarcel postman it was a regular thing, after a certain amount 
 of service in the parcel post, to b3 drafted as an established man into the 
 lette.r post ; and then, of course, you would get these advantages of the 
 Christmas lioxes. When we were established, however, we were not allowed 
 to do so. We had been in the Service some time then, and I contend that 
 the Dejmrtment actually had no right to make this rule without giving us 
 compensation. * 
 
 Q. Do you think the Postmaster- General has no right to make a rule 
 which apjilies to all the letter-carriers all through Scotland at the present 
 UK/ment? 
 
 A. I believe the Postmaster-General has no right to make a rule which — 
 treli, robs one section while it gives unfair advantages to another. 
 
 Q. Even though that is a rule which the whole of the letter-carriers of 
 London have asked him to make apply to them now? 
 
 A. Yes ; but they have asked for compensation. I contend that as 
 postmen we have a perfect right to receive everything which every other 
 postman receives, and if you grant compen-sation to the letter men, I con- 
 tend that we have a perfect right to receive it also. 
 
 Q. That is vour contention? 
 
 A. Yes.
 
 Parcel Postmen's Case. 103 
 
 HAND-CART ASSISTANTS. 
 
 Witness : The next matter to which I liave to refer to is the request that 
 assistants be allowed on all hand-cart deliveries and collections. This is a 
 grievance which, I am Isure. will be at once remedied when its nature is 
 understood. At the large depots, whenever a delivery or collection is 
 made involving the use of a hand-cart, two men are sent witli it. both of 
 whom assist in it.s propulsion. Having regard to the weight of the hand- 
 cart when loaded with parcels, to the fact that it is often impossible to 
 fasten down the lid owing to tlie bulk of the contents, and also that these 
 cor tents are of considerable value, generally including registered and foreign 
 parcels, it is of the highest importance that two men should accompany 
 each hand-cart. At some of the minor offices, hovv^ever, notably the North- 
 Weslern and Hampstead, men are often sent on hand-cart deliveries or 
 collections without anyone to assi.st them. If these were accidental occa- 
 sions due to stress of work or some unforeseen contingenc3\ the case would 
 be bad enough, but this is not so. Men have to do this daily as part of 
 their duty. Some flagrant cases are where men have to attend the office 
 at 4 p.m., take a hand-cart, make a 4.30 p.m. collection, bring it in, take 
 out a delivery at 5 p.m. which will last till nearly 7 p.m., and then bring 
 in a 7 o'clock collection, the whole of this being pei'formed single-handed. 
 Were this performed upon level ground the strain would be very great, but 
 for a man to have to do this among the hills of North-West London 
 involves a strain of a heavy and injurious character. As an example "of tlie 
 nature of the district, I may say that in Camden Road, which has to be 
 tmversed by some of the men of whom I speak, an extra horse is allowetl 
 by the Tramway Comjiany for their trams, but, as I have shown, no assis- 
 tance is granted the postmen. I may say with regard to tlie North -West 
 that they have ai>plied for assistance, but it has been refused. At Hamp- 
 stead the men applied for assistance when the snow was on the ground, 
 and the answer they received was that thev did not encourage laziness in 
 the Post Office. 
 
 Q. Wiio gave them that answer? 
 
 A. The overseer, I presume. Another matter which should be considered 
 is the insecurity of the parcels under this system. A man is often obliged 
 to leave his hand-cart unguarded whilst engaged delivermg or collecting, 
 by night as well as by day. It is true locks are placed on the hand-carts, 
 but they are of very simple construction, and may easily be turaed. 
 During the absence of the postman, which may last several minutes, 
 especially if he has a registered parcel to deliver, or one about which he 
 has some inquiry to make, it is ({uite easy for anyone so disposed to abstract 
 a parcel or parcels from the hand-cart. Of course, it is quite impossible 
 to take a hand-cart everywhere you go, and you have to leave your hand- 
 cart when you go up to the top of buildings or something (jf "that kind. 
 In the City, of course, there is a great deal of stair work in the offices ; 
 and in all otlier districts, too, although there the offices are far less 
 numerous. But there are many blocks of mansions and buildings, and, 
 of course, all these have to be climbed ; and it generally follows, as a 
 matter of course, that when a man has a parcel sent him, he takes care to 
 live on the top of these buildings, and you have to go right to the top 
 and wait there till the slip is sigiaed, and it may be that several minutes 
 elapse while you are away. It is, therefore, quite ea.sy for anyone to 
 abstract a parcel from the hand-cart, which, of course," means loss and 
 amxoyance to the addressee. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any case where a parcel has been abstracted from a 
 liand-cart while the postman has been going upstairs? 
 
 A. No ; it is impossible to say 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, has there been anv case brought to vour know-
 
 104 George Hakold Stuvbt. 
 
 ledge of the loss of a parcel left in that ^vay while the poStman WaS going 
 upstairs? 
 
 A. I am about to answer if you will allow me to. I say it is impossible 
 to say exa-ctly, because if a parcel is lost from a hand-cart, and the man 
 comes back and reports it, he cannot say how or wliere he has lost it. 
 
 Sir F. MoWatt: He would find out, would lie not, if his lock had been 
 broken ? 
 
 A. These locks are Somewhat similar to railway carriage locks, and yoii 
 simply turn them bj" inserting a piece of steel. I haVe seen them turned 
 l)y a piece of wood being inserted. When the m.an came back and re- 
 ported the loss, lie coiild not be certain liow he had lost it; for iiistance, 
 he might think he had left it behind in the office. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Will you accept it from me that, as far as tlie Depart- 
 ment knows, no parcel has ever been abstracted in the 'tt'ay you have men- 
 tioned ? 
 
 A. I will accept it from you l)ecaus8, as I say, it is impossible to say. 
 I only point out that it is quite possible that parcels may be lost in thi§ 
 M'ay, aiui that they ought to be safeguarded, so that this risk should not 
 be I'un. As I say, this means loss and annoyance to the addressee and to 
 the Depai'tment, and. moreover, the postman is liable to punishment fof 
 losing the parcel, although it will be seen that it was impossible for liim to 
 prevent the theft. These evils would Ije ol)viated were it laid down as a 
 strict rule that all hand-carts nuist be accompanied by two men. Another 
 (piestion which is very much interwoven with this is the limit of weight 
 on bag deliveries and collections. In some offices where tliey are not 
 allcwed any assistants, and where they know they have more than they 
 can carry, rather than take a hand-cart they overload themselves. Another 
 thing : it is a temptation for a man to delay parcels in a case like that. 
 If a man has as much as he can carry, and he gets another parcel which 
 will necessitate his taking a hand-cart, it is a very great temptation to that 
 man to put the parcel out of the way if he possibly can do so. I do not 
 s ly it is done ; I believe it is not. I only point out the temptation which it 
 is to the men to do tlii;'! kind of thing. If it were laid down as a strict 
 rule that two rnea should be sent with each hand-cart, this sort of thing 
 could not be done. Of course, with regard to the btg deliveries and collec- 
 tions, assistance would imply that two men would be sent with the hand- 
 cart in this jxirticular case. There is a rule laid down in the Rule Book 
 that if you h:ive more than 35 lbs. on a collection you can ask for assis- 
 tance ; but I say that rule does not practically apply to parcel men, be- 
 cause if they ask for assistance in most offices they are told to take a 
 jiand-cart. At some depots the weight a man is supposed to carry is the 
 same as in the letter branch, viz., 35 lbs., but at others this limit is not 
 recognised, and the men are much more ! eavily laden. I think it should 
 be clearly defined what the weight limit really is, and this definition should 
 be printed in the postmeif.s Rule Books. 
 
 OVERALLS. 
 
 Now I have to deal with the (juestion of overalls. I do not wisli to put 
 this as a grievance. It i.s not a grievance. The idea of asking for these 
 things has been moot/cd on several occasions, but it never assumed any 
 distinct form until after this Committee was appointed ; then we under- 
 stood that the officii 1 channel vv;ls closed 
 
 The Chairman : No. 
 
 A. And that anytl;ing we reiiuired Wius to be brought before this Com- 
 mittee. This reque-^t for overalls is a request for a small addition to our 
 uniform. Parcel work, consisting, as it does, of a large amount of hand- 
 Girt propulsion neecssitates, of course, much walking in the roadway. 
 The condition of iiondon streets in wet and muddy weather needs no
 
 Parcel Postmen's Case. 105 
 
 enlaiging upon. In such weather our trouser legs become saturated with 
 water, and no matter how good our boots may be, it is impossible to 
 keep our feet dry, as the water splashes over the tops of the boots and 
 runs inside. It is often some hours before we can change or properly 
 diy ourselves, and the results frequently are that men contract colds, 
 rheumatism, etc. This matter would be easily and effectually remedied 
 were overall leggings, similar to those issued to the Metropolitan Police, 
 issued to us. The cost would not be large, and the Department would, 
 I am confident, be recompensed by the decrease in sick pay which would 
 follow. I may mention as a not unimportant matter that we should be 
 able to keep our uniform much smarter and cleaner than at present 
 were this request granted. Witii regard to the cost, I have not been able 
 to find out what the police officials pay on their contract price, but I 
 believe yon can obtain a very good pair of these overall leggings for about 
 7s. 6d., and they would last a couple of years at all events, so that the cost 
 would really be very small indee'l. I am informed that the cost would be 
 much less than 7s. 6d. a pair. 
 
 Q. It would not help your boots ; you would get your feet just as much 
 wet through if you had overalls? 
 
 A. No ; they come down very low over the laces of the boots, so that 
 the water would not get inside so readily at all events. It would be a 
 great advantage in that res|>ect. 
 
 SEPARATION OF BRANCH. 
 
 Now I have to deal with the separation of the branch. I would urge upon 
 you that the parcel branch should be entirely severed from the letter branch. 
 A strong reason for this separation lies in the fact that the present system 
 engenders an opinion tli.it our branch is an inferior one. This opinion, 
 wliich seems to be shared by Mr. Badcock, judging from the evidence he 
 gave upon the sorters' case, is an incorrect one, and cannot fail to have 
 a bad effect upon tlie parcel stail. The cause of this opinion is probably 
 that the Parcel Department is of recent establishment, and I am afraid 
 youth and inferiority are often held to be synonymous terms. It is to tliis 
 opinion being held, no doubt, we owe the fact that on one or two occasions 
 men have been temporarily transferred from letter offices to parcel depots 
 as punishment for misconduct, a proceeding we strongly object to. Again, 
 should a parcel man perfoi-m a sujterior duty, such as a lobby officer's in 
 the absence of that official, not only would he receive no addition to his 
 ■nages while doing so, but, should a vacancy arise, the position will be 
 given, not to the man who has performed the duty at inconvenience and 
 possibly expense to himself, but to a letter man, who may have had no 
 expeiience iu parcel lobby work. I contend that tliis is unfair; if a man 
 undertakes a position of responsibility to oblige a department, he s';ould 
 be able to look forward to a substantial benefit, as he receives nothing at 
 the time. The system of treating the parcels branch as an inferior one 
 has peculiar and far-reaching effects. It is doubtless the reason why we 
 are not allowed to solicit Christmas boxes ; it may even be the reason why 
 some men at Waterloo have to be on duty 665 hours per week instead 
 of 48. These men are coach guards, and I have here a statement from one 
 of them. On the Wallington coach, he tells me he goes on duty at 5.15 a.m., 
 at 5.52 the coach departs, and he calls at South Lambeth, Clapham, Balham, 
 Tooting, Mitcham, Sutton, and Carshalton ; at 7.59 lie arrive^s at Walling- 
 ton, his destination. When he arrives at Wallington he is about 17 or 18 
 miles away from hLs base — his home — ^and he is put off duty from 7.59 a.m. 
 till 12.11 p.m., or about that, and he receives no allowance or anj'thing 
 of that kind ; and while he is actually put off duty, there is no accommo- 
 dation for him at Wallington, and he cannot get any food or anji;hing like
 
 106 George Hauoi-d Stuart. 
 
 that, but lias to go back to Carslialton, a distance of about a mile, to 
 get his ])reakfast in the stables there. At 12.11 p.m. he leaves Wallington 
 and calls as before. 
 
 Q. Does the coach put up at Carshalton then? 
 
 A. Yes ; and through the kindness of the driver he goes back on the 
 coach. As a matter of fact, I think he ought not to do so, but the driver 
 brings him liack. At 2.17 p.m. he arrives at Waterloo, and is then employed 
 opening Ijaskets, etc., until 4 o'clock. He is actually on duty, I contend, 
 for IO5 hours. I think when a man is taken away from his home at a 
 distance like that, the Department ought not to consider that he is off duty 
 for this space of four hours very nearly, for the man cannot do anything, 
 because, of course, he cannot come home. In the case of a long distance 
 guard, they get an alkiwance, which I think is called a .sustenance allowance, 
 of 3s. per day. This man, although he is put to not as much expense, 
 but still to a great deal of expense, receives no allowance, and that, I con- 
 tend, is unfair. I cannot see any reason why that should be so. 
 
 Q. Is he a postman, technically speaking? 
 
 A. He is a postman. This .system of treating the parcel branch as an 
 inferior one may also he the reason that two parcel postmen at Hampstead, 
 although in the Service for some years, have never received any uniform 
 or boot allowance. I have received particulars of their case from these men. 
 These men, it appears, have l)een in the Service for over three years, and 
 they have never received any boot allowance or any uniform. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are they established postmen? 
 
 A. They are not. They do not exactly know what t';ey are, and they 
 want to know. Tiiey seem to think that they are first-cla.ss sorters. 
 
 Q. If they are first-class sorters what has it got to do with your case? 
 
 A. They would like to know what tiiey are. They are tenned casual 
 postmen employed on parcel duties. They tell me they do all the recording, 
 despatching, and entering of foreign, colonial, and i-egistered parcels. That, 
 of course, is first-class sorters" work. But t'.-ese men are really parcel 
 posrmen. 
 
 Q What is their pay? 
 
 A. They are paid 18s. a week, and they receive no advances in money 
 whatever. They are not supernumerary postmen, because, if they were, 
 they would, of course, have received some small advances ; they have been 
 there for three years and have received nothing at all. 
 
 Q. These are, as a matter of fact, full-time supernumeraries, are they 
 not? 
 
 A. No, the_y are not. They have been in the Service three years, and 
 have received no advances in their pay. They have been told they were 
 casual postmen, and if they were full-signed supernumeraries they would 
 receive Vjoot money and their uniform, which, as a matter of fact, they 
 have not. There are three other men in the office styled the same, viz., 
 casual postmen, who do receive uniform, but who do not receive boot 
 money. 
 
 Q. Are these men employed on indoor duties? 
 
 A. On both indoor and outdoor duties. At any rate, no other reason 
 than the system of treating the parcel branch as an inferior one can be 
 assigned for these things. I beg to assert most positively that our work 
 is every bit as responsible a;s letter work, and in proof of this assertion 
 I would like to call your attention to the nature of a parcel postman's duties. 
 In addition to hLs work of sorting, collecting, and delivering parcels, he 
 performs a considerable amount of clerical work, as each parcel has to 
 be i*ecorded on lists provided for that purpose. I have provided myself 
 with lists (producing and explaining same). You will perceive there "that 
 in entering a parcel you have to enter the name and address, and the name 
 of the office of origin, and also whether by coach or rail, and other par-
 
 Parcel Postmen's Case. 10/ 
 
 ticulars. You see great care has to bs taken in entering these parcels for 
 fear that the railway company should be paid too much. That is a sample 
 of the clerical work which a parcel postman has to perform. 
 
 The Chairman : Have these two sheets been done by yourself ? 
 
 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, they are not done with pen and ink like 
 these ; they are done with lead pencil. 
 
 Q. Have you filled this in yourself? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Just as a sample? 
 
 A. Exactly ; to show how they have to be done, 
 
 Q. This is not an actual list, but it is just a sample to show us what you 
 have to do? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is exactly the same as the lists we do. 
 
 Q. I imagine you have made it as elaborate as you can? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. I see you have got parcels from Egypt and from Oxford on it? 
 
 A. If you were to go through the whole of our lists, you would find that 
 it is not bv any means elaborate. 
 
 Q. Is it 'not? 
 
 A. No ; in fact, I have left out several that I might have put in. I think 
 I have been very fair to the Department in that. With regard to Kingston 
 ani suburban places, you do not enter the postage as a general thing, but 
 sometimes you do for parcels. To continue with my statement. This 
 portion of tlie duty is, I believe, performed by sorting clerks in the pro- 
 vinces, but in London is almost wholly done by postmen. Great care 
 nmst be exercised when recording, for the name and address of the addressee, 
 tlie name and code of the office of origin, and the amount of postage, 
 must be distinctly shown. In the case of foreign, colonial, and registered 
 parcels, still other particulars must be given. The postman making these 
 entries is wholly responsible for their correctness, and is liable for pimish- 
 ment for errors committed. When the number of places which are named 
 alike, but which have to be shown differently, are remembered, it will be 
 seen that this responsibility is a very real one, and that errors may easily 
 be made. The parcel postman's clerical work does not end here, for he 
 has to fill in a " to whom delivered " column on his list, with the descrip- 
 tion, or, if possible, the mme of the person who has received the parcel 
 he has delivered. Charged parcels, too, cast gi-eat responsibility on parcel 
 postmen, as the charges sometimes, in the case of customs dues, amount to 
 several pounds. These things, I contend, make our work in every way 
 equal to letter work, and I maintain our duties cannot fairly be said to be 
 inferior to letter duties. I am dwelling somewhat on this inferiority busi- 
 ness, but my excuse must be that the matter is keenly felt by us, and we 
 are convinced that separation is the only remedy. With regard to this 
 inferiority, it is rather unfortunate for a branch when a Department gets 
 hold of that idea. I may point to a case in point : the Department held 
 the idea that sorting work was superior to po.stmen's work, or, at least, I 
 believe so : and the consequence was that the sorters' maximum was greatly 
 raised, while the postmen's maximum was left almost stationary, or was not 
 raised very much at all events. We do not want anything like that to 
 happen to us ; we want to guard against anything of that kind. 
 
 Q. Still, you do want to be separated from the letter men altogether? 
 
 A. Yes ; so far as the working is concerned. I think it would be ad- 
 vantageous to the working. I have said, I trust, sufficient to prove that 
 this inferiority does not exist, at least so far as postmen's work is con- 
 cerned. I now turn to another strong argument for separation, viz., the 
 great and ever-growing importance of the parcel branch. In the first com- 
 pleted year after the establishment of the Parcel Post, I find that the 
 number of parcels carried was 22,910.040. In the year ending March 31st, 
 1895, the number is given as 57,135,841. or considerablv more than double
 
 108 Geokgk Haroi.d Stuaut. 
 
 the quantity carried in the iirst .year. I find also that the number of re- 
 gistered jmrcels last year was 590.788, and a calculation of the nuniljer 
 of jxircsls registered t^i letters registered, shows that a far larger proportion 
 of parcels are registered to letters. 1 have not in that calculation included 
 the nunibar of insured parcels, wliich amounted last year to nearly 60.0C0, 
 which is a great increase, and wliich would make t! e comparison more 
 favourable to us. Tlie numb?r of foreign and colonial [larcels exchanged in 
 the same [^riod Mas 1,557,831, and their value £2,031.255, or an average 
 of £1 6s. eacli. That is a rotigii average, Init it is rather more than £1 6s. 
 each. The value of the inlind parcels it is, of course, im.possible to give, 
 but as nearly every parcel carried hns a distinct monetary value, it must be enor- 
 mous. In making this comparison respecting the proportions of letters and 
 parcels registered, I have no intention of undervaluing letter work. I only 
 wish to show the value of our own work, and to argue from that stand- 
 point that a separuti branch Ls desirable. To some extent we are separated 
 by the establishment of such depots as Mount Pleasant. Bird Street, 
 Waterloo, and London Bridge, which have their own stiii's, reserves, etc. ; 
 but at other otiiees the branches are worked corijointly, one reserve staff 
 serving the whole, tmd this often throws an unfair amount of work on the 
 parcel postmen, as a man from the letter branch where the .sorting is differ- 
 ent and the system of delivery entirely different, will need almost as much 
 tuition as a new man. Even men who have some knowledge of parcel work 
 find themselves greatly handicapped after a short absence, owing to the 
 frequent changes in the sorting. In fact the system .seems to me entirely 
 faulty, us postal work requires not men who have a good general knowledge 
 of the work, but rather men whom I may term specialists. Men who are 
 employed on one kiml of work one day and on another tlie next cannot be 
 30 efficient as if they were kept on one kind always. On the matter of 
 difference in the nature of the work, I should like to quote ^Ir. Badcock's 
 answer to a question from your lordship. He said, " The experience that 
 a ii-an gains in Parcel Post work would be of no use t<j him in a letter 
 office." His answer, of course, referred t-o the sorters, but it will apply 
 equally well to the postmen. Entire separation would tend t-o secure greater 
 efficiency in both branches, and would be welcomed by both letter and 
 parcel staffs. It may cost a little more to work the branches separately, 
 but 1 am confident the increased eSficiency will more than recoup the Dg- 
 parlmeut for the outlay. I ask. therefore, that parcels be exclusively dealt 
 with by parcels men ; that each parcel depot shall have its own staff, and 
 that all promotion in parcel offices shall be reserved for parcel men. Of 
 course, on such a thing as wages we claim entire equality. 
 
 Q. Exactly ; your case is the same there. But do you not see a great 
 difficulty in separating the work of the two classes in the coimtry generally ; 
 it may be possible in big centres, but surely it must be quite impossible in 
 the country districts ? 
 
 A. I only represent London, and I do not see any difficulty as far as 
 London is concerned. With regard to the country, I think that difficulty 
 will diminish, because as the parcel work increases you will find that it 
 will naturally separate itself. What I mean to say is this, that if a number 
 of parcels are being delivered in a place, and tliey find they are increasing 
 rapidly, as a matter of fact they will have to employ a separate staff. Of 
 course, it will not do away with the difficulty in remote country districts ; 
 you never will be able to do away with that difficulty at all. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would it not be utterly impracticable in the country 
 districts to .separate the services? 
 
 A. It might be in remote districts, but I am speaking of London. 
 
 Q. Would it not be very difficult in the suburbs of London to separate 
 the two services ? 
 
 A. I do not think so. It would be a little more, expensive than at present, 
 but I sav that the natural growth of the Parcel Post will necessitiite this
 
 Parcel t*ostmen's Ca^se. lO'J 
 
 sort of thing Ijeuig done, and that, as a iaatt«r of fact, I am simply fore- 
 stalling the Department in asking for tliis. 1 think you will have to do 
 this kind of thing iu some years to come. It would be desirable and better 
 for the parcel branch, and it would conduce not only to greater efficiency, 
 but it would make the branch more elastic. 
 
 The Chairman : We heard from the last witness that even in London the 
 delivery of parcels was practically confined to certain walks m one district, 
 and that the parcels in the poorer districts were very rare? 
 
 A. That particular office would require a less number of parcel men, 
 that is the only thing ; the districts would be exactly as they are now. 
 A parcel walk is far longer than a letter walk. Tt would simply work nut 
 to the same thing in that respect. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If you separate the two staffs as you propose, do you 
 propose to have two separate suj)ervLsing staffs also? 
 
 A. I do not see that that is necessary : there is not a separate super- 
 vising staff' for the sorters. 
 
 Q. Wouhl you put the letter-carrier and the parcel jmstman under the 
 same overseer? 
 
 A. Yes ; that would apply to the case where ( he parcel men and the letter 
 men were in the same office, but it would not apply to places where tliey 
 had separate depots, certainly not. Thev would be just the s:ime as sorters 
 and postmen under the same overseer. That, my lord, is my case. 
 
 The witness withdrew.
 
 HENRY BOAIJ<:r, X.W.D.O. 
 
 Punishments — Discii'Line. 
 
 Westminstkr, Thursday, February 20, 1896. 
 
 Tlie Committee resumed its sittings at Westminster on February' 20th, 
 there l>eing present the Right Hon. Lord Tweedmouth (Cliairman), Sir Fran- 
 cis Mowatt, K.C.B., Sjjencer Walpole. Esq., Sir Artliur Godlaiy, and 
 Rol)ert Bruce, Esq., Secretary. 
 
 Henry Boaler \\"as re-called and examined on the question of punishments, 
 as follows : — 
 
 The Chairman : I think you want to speak upon the question of punish- 
 ments. Will you go on with that? 
 
 A. Yes ; I want to make a statement on tlie subject of excessive punish- 
 ments, and I make it on behalf of the London postmen. We claim that it 
 is excessive punishment where men are punished during the whole period of 
 their service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How do you mean by " punished during the whole perio 1 
 of their service." 
 
 A. I will sliortly explain and illustrate that in my statement. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : I spppose j^ou mean that the record mounts up against 
 them ? 
 
 A. Yes. The first case to wliich I would ask your corsideration is tha^ 
 of J. Chapman and W. Howell of the Western District Office, who, in th» 
 year 1891, were punished with the loss of class, whicli lo a po.stman is m.one- 
 tary loss. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Loss of claj<s? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : You mean that they were degraded bj- being put hack 
 in their class? 
 
 A. Yes, iriy lord. In this instance their loss is estimated at about £40 a*; 
 present, and they will continue to lose at the same average until they reach 
 ;heir maximum. Their offence is one which we have the highest possible 
 .luthority for saying is no offence, and which there is no rule against, viz., 
 combining for remedy of alleged grievance. These men were appointed as 
 auxiliaries in 1886. and appointed 2nd class postmen in 1888. In 1890 they 
 joined the Postmen's Union, and were elected by the members of the Branch 
 as local secretary and collector. During OctoVjer, 1891, nearly two years 
 1 iter, and at the time of the abolition of the classes, 52 appointments to the 
 1st chiss were to be made, which should, in the ordinary course of events, 
 have included these men by virtue of their service a.nd fitness, each having 
 f.ver three years, and v.diose conduct had. never been questioned. But this 
 was not so. They were excluded, and the reason given by the Postmaster 
 \vas tiiat they were prominent members of the local branch. Therefore, 
 gentlemen, these men were p.issed over by a number of their juniors, which 
 Mot only meant an immediate loss — 3s. per week — but the loss of seniority. 
 
 which also a<;'ts to their detriment in the choice of walks, holidavs. etc.
 
 Punishnients — Discipline. Ill 
 
 The Chairman: Has the particular case of these men been raised before? 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I believe it has been reported to the Comptroller several 
 times. They can get no remedy. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Did not these men attend a meeting outside of the Post 
 Office for the redress of grievances contrary to the then existing regulations 
 of the Department? 
 
 A. I have a quotation here from one of the best authorities we can get — 
 the late Mr. Raikes — who, when Postmaster-General, said, " Tliei-e is no 
 rule forbidding Post Office employees to combine for the pui'pose of remedy- 
 ing alleged grievances." 
 
 Q. But was not such a rule in force at the time these men combined? 
 
 A. We are given to understand that there never was such a rule. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that at the time these men met there was a distinct 
 rule of the Department forbidding them to meet outside the Post Office to 
 discuss their position ? I am not saying whether the rule was right or wrong, 
 but was not that the case? 
 
 A. Yes ; it was the case. 
 
 Q. And these men disobeyed that rule? 
 
 A. I liave no evidence that these men disobeyed the rule, and, moreover, 
 the Department never called upon them for any explanation of the matter. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, they did attend a meeting at Clerkenwell, did 
 they not? 
 
 A. No ; I am not aware of that. I am told that they did not. Even if 
 they had attended such a meeting, which I am empowered to say they did 
 not, as the inile has since been done away with, we think their punishment 
 ought to have lieen done away with also. The etfects of the punishment 
 should not contiime as they do to the present day. 
 
 Q. The punishment was a punisliment for the tra.nsgression of the rule. 
 I am not interested in defending a rule which did not exist after I became 
 Secretary. But is not that the fact? 
 
 A. I i)elieve it is. 
 
 The Chairman: Have they had no promotion since? 
 
 A. Yes ; they, have had their good conduct badges. They are good con- 
 duct men, as proved by the fact that they have got all their increments and 
 stripes and everything up to date. What they complain of is that the 
 junior men are receiving 3s. per week higher wage, and also enjoy the privi- 
 lege of preference for certain walks, and that ,is,an advantage to them in 
 regJird to Christmas boxes, which is part and pcircel of our wages. They 
 also get the choice of holidays. 
 
 Q. What you mean is that these men by their disoljetlience of this par- 
 ticular rule lost a certain amount of seniority? 
 
 A. Yes; and an immediate loss of 3s. a week. 
 
 Q. That was involved in the loss of seniority, was it not? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You say that the matter has be3n represented to the 
 Comptroller, and that it is not a fact tliat these men attended any meeting 
 outside the Post Office? 
 
 A. Just so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Were there three or two men? 
 
 A. Two men — Howe and Chapman. I have a statement here which will 
 explain the whole of Chapman's case, if I may have permission to read it. 
 It is from himself. 
 
 The Chairman : I don't think you must read it. I think you must only 
 use these cases as illustrations. We are not here to inquire into the griev- 
 ances of individuals, but rather into the grievances of all classes in the postal 
 service, and the only way in which yon can bring in any individual case is 
 as an illustration of what the whole class is liable to be sul>jected to. I am 
 quite ra-uh' to hear anything you may have got to say on behalf of your 
 class, but with regarf to the long statement as to the individual case of
 
 112 H. BoALEn, N.V/.D.O. 
 
 Chapman I think it would be better if you simply handed it to the Secretary 
 
 of tlie Post Office. 
 Mr. Walpole : Plea.se hand it to me, and I will take care that it is looked into. 
 Witness : The statement will practically cover the case of the two men 
 I have mentioned. I should also state that it is not a personal matter 
 merely. Until we get a proper ruling on this question we don't know how 
 we stand, and even witnesses before this Committee niiiy perhaps have some 
 doubt as to whether they may not ibe subjected to the same sort of thing 
 themselves. I mean loss of clas.s or something like that. We want the rule 
 properly defined. 
 
 The Chairman : You may be quite sure that you will not suffer loss of 
 class or any other damage wha,tever through am-thing you may say here. 
 You and the other witnesses may make your minds ouite easy on that point. 
 Witness : Tha,t suggests one point why we would like to ask you to accept 
 evidence in support of the recognition of our society. We think our society 
 should be recogniseil by the Department. Tliese men have been punished, 
 and are being punislied unjustly, and I must ask that in common justice you 
 will recommend that they be recompensed and placed in their pro})er position 
 in the Service. 
 
 The Cha.irman : I do not think that we are emjwweretl to interfere in 
 matters of discipline that are past. All we can say is that evidence we 
 have received makes us think that such a rule as you have referred to does 
 not work well with regard to a whole class of individuals, but we are not a 
 court of appeal from the ajction of the Postmaster or the Postmaster's sub- 
 ordinates in the past. I want to make tliat quite clear. 
 
 Witness : I quite understand that, but I think that if the rule has been 
 done away with the punishment should not continue, as at the present time, 
 and that these men should be recompensed by being i-estored to their seni- 
 ority. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think it is only fair I should say that I cannot aecept 
 that; view. Disobedience of a rule thafc exists at a certain time does not seem 
 to m.e to be condoned by the fact that the rule is afterwards altered. The 
 punishm.ent is imposed for disobedience of an existing and well-known rule, 
 {i^nd here I am not expressing any particular opinion on the merits of these 
 individual cases. 
 
 A. We have no proof tliat these men broke the rule. They were elected 
 by their comrades as the local secretary and collector of a branch to solicit 
 Siuall subscriptions, etc., to keep the branch in order, and I believe it was 
 stated by the Postmaster that the punishment vras imposed because they 
 were prominent members of their branch. I understand that to be the only 
 cause really why they were reduced, and they were given no opportunity 
 of explaining whether they ha^i broken any particular rule or done anything 
 like that. They were never called upon to make afiy statement whatever 
 with regard to their position. The next subject I have to deal with is that 
 of excessive punishment. We maintain that the system of punishing men 
 three and even four times for one offence, extending in many cases over five 
 years, is excessive punishment. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatfc : How does that occur ? 
 
 A. I will explain. The punishment inflicted on postmen most seriously 
 aifect their good conduct baidges and promotion, as well as the system of 
 receiving increments. That, we think, is cruel and. imjust, considering that 
 the Department is put to no monetary loss by the offences for which these 
 punishments are inflicted, although sometimes the stripes are withheld for 
 offences spreading over as long period as five years. If a man is a. little late, 
 or commits any otlier trilling offence, it may be brought up against him 
 even five years afterwards, when a stripe becomes due. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If a man has lost an mcrement on account of his conduct 
 during the preceding five years, he is not eligible for a stripe. 
 A. Yes.
 
 \ Punishments — Discipline. 113 
 
 Q. Is not a stripe a reward for good conduct? 
 
 A. We regard it largely as wages. 
 ■ Q. But it is a reward of good conduct? 
 
 A. It carries certain extra wages with it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You had Ijetter get that idea out of your head. We regard 
 stripes as a reward for good conduct. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Some of the other witnesses disclaimed regarding the 
 stripes as wages. 
 
 A. I have lieard it stated that it is a rule in the book of instructions issued 
 for Postmasters that no man is to be punished v.ith the loss of stripes unless 
 he has been late in attendance sixteen times, I think, during the course of 
 tJje twelve montlis. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Now you are speaking of late attendances. 
 
 Mr. Wa^lpole : That does not touch the question we were discussing. 
 No main loses his increment for a small number of late attendances. 
 
 A. We have really no definite rule as to the number of times, and we 
 don't always understand what a small number is. 
 
 Q. Have you known any ca.se.s where a man's increment was ai-rested un- 
 justly for late attendance? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have severall cases which I will read later on. The very fact 
 of the punisliment complained of goes to prove the responsible and important 
 nature of our duties, so much so that in no other branch of the Service are 
 the possibilities of puni-shment so great as in the postmen's ranks. We 
 would therefore ask that the arduous and varied nature of these duties be 
 taken into consideration. I will now read a list of the duties of postmen, 
 as it will assist me later on with my explanations: — 1, The collection of cor- 
 respondence ; 2, the delivery of same : 3, the whole of the inward sorting ; 
 4, 75 per cent, of the outward ; 5^ dispatching railways ; 6, responsible for 
 the whole of the news dispatch ; 7, receiving and dealing with district bags ; 
 8, de?Jing with removals and re-directing same ; and 9, to assist in the col- 
 lection and delivery of parcels. The whole of the duties named carry with 
 them responsibilities, and any mistake in the performance of them is a 
 punishable offence. All little mistakes are brought up as evidence against 
 the men when applying for their increment or stripe. The punishment of 
 which we complain most is the punishment ,for late attendance. In the 
 instance of a man who may unfortunately have been say from 12 to 18 tunes 
 late in the course of 12 months, no matter how little the time lost, he is 
 punished with the loss of his increment when that becomes due, and in the 
 event of the man Ijeing entitled to a good conduct badge by reason of his 
 service, that is also withheld. And in some instances men are punished with 
 extra duty also, although the time lost has, however small, and in every 
 instance, to be worked out, usually by a special attendance and at the con- 
 venience of the Depaa'tment. 
 
 Sir F. ISIowatt : I thought tliere was a limit of three or four minutes 
 pillowed which did not count as late attendance? 
 
 A. No, sir. I have known men having to sign for one or two or three 
 minutes late. Each counts as a late attendance. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Does anything count uiider five minutes? 
 
 A. Yes ; from one to four minutes count. 
 
 The Chairman: Does one minute count? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have known a case where a man h&l to sign the late book for 
 one minut«, and two minutes is a comparatively common occurrence. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Are men punished for that? 
 
 A. It is recorded against them the same as if they were an hour late. 
 
 The Chairmain : But they are not fined ? 
 
 A. We have no fines, but these late attendances are all totalled up against 
 them, and may interfere with their increment. In the case o^ collections I 
 think they are regarded as even more serious than in the case of G.P. de- 
 liveries, for thcj' are mostly written in red ink.
 
 114 H. BoALER, N.W.D.O. i 
 
 Q. Wliat is the exact measure dealt out to a man who is late? I mean 
 wliat is generally done in London, because' I assume you must have had some 
 experience ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have experienced a lot of that. In the first instance, at the 
 end of the month tlie total of a man's la,tes is made up, and he has to give 
 an explanation why he was late, and the amount of time, be it 20 minutes 
 or ha(lf-an-hour or more, has to Ije worked out by special attendances at the 
 convenience of the Department. He may have to come back after he has 
 done a delivery in order to work out his time, or he may have to attend 
 at three or four o'clock in the morning for the purpose. At the end of 
 twelve months, if lie has been on an average 12, 15, or 18 times late, hia 
 increment is stopped. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not a fact that a man must liave been late more than 
 three times in a month before it affects him? 
 
 A. Oh. no, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You saiy that 12 late attendances of one minute in a year 
 will disriuaJify him? 
 
 A. I have not any record of a man being punished for having 12 late at- 
 tendances of one minute each. 
 
 Q. But you say each late attendance of one minute counts? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Can you give me an instance where ;a man has been 
 punished for being twelve times three minutes late on the average? 
 
 A. I have not such a case here ; but that makes no difference in the office. 
 It is no great encouragement to a man wlien he knows that a few minutes 
 late will for a long time tell so seriously against him. It does not encourage 
 him to strain every nerve or use extra energy to get to the office in time. 
 
 Q. Can you give me any instance where a man has been punished for 12 
 late attendances? 
 
 A. I have been punished three years in succession for late attendances. 
 
 Q. How many late attendances? 
 
 A. Eighteen tunes the first year. 
 
 The Chairman: Do you know the total amount of your lateness? 
 
 A. I did not keep a record of it. not knowing tliat this Inquiry waa 
 coming on, but I had to repay the time. 
 
 Q. What was your average? 
 
 A. I should say I was late on the average about 20 minutes each time. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Each time? 
 
 A. Yes. I am speaking of the early hours of the m.orning. 
 
 The Chairman : That is 360 minutes in the year. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That Ls a very different case from what you brought forward 
 about punishment for being late two or three minutes. 
 
 A. I said it was possible to have to sign the book for being late even one, 
 two, or three minutes. 
 
 Q. But wliere does the punishment come in? i 
 
 A. During the time I have mentioned I h?|ve had to sign for as little as 
 five minutes late, and some have had to sign for three minutes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: How many times were jiou late the second year? 
 
 A. Twelve times. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you know how mucli you were late on the averacre? 
 
 A. I did not keep count. 
 
 Q. Do you suppose it was an average of 20 minutes? 
 
 A. Yes ; I should say thait was about the average. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: And in the third year?. 
 
 A. I was ten times late. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: With the .same sort of average? 
 
 A. I should say so, but I did not keep count. 
 
 Q. You will admit that lateness for 20 minutes involves very .serious dis- 
 organisation of our deliveries and collections?
 
 Punishments — Discipline. 115 
 
 A. Yes ; we quite understand that punctuality is necessary in the Depart- 
 ment, but we complain of the excessive nature of the (punishments. We 
 -ant a proper and clearly known code of rules laid down with regard to 
 unishments. 
 
 Q. What was your punishments in these cases? 
 
 A. I lost Is. a week each year. 
 
 Q. Your increment was arrested for three successive years? 
 
 A. I obtained my increment last year. 
 
 The Chairman: Was it arrested altogether for three years? 
 
 A. Yes ; it was first arrested for one j^ear, and then there was an im- 
 irovement in my late aittendances, which fell to 12, and it was again 
 rrested for further improvement, as it was considered that once a month 
 ite was a very bad average for a postman. My attendance then improved. 
 'Cing reduced to six during the next 12 months, and I then received my 
 ■acrement. 
 
 Mr. WaJpole: Your increment was arrested for three months, was it not? 
 
 A. For six months in the first instance. 
 
 Q. In 1893 was there not another incident that I do not want to refer to 
 urther, wliich rather affected the question — in .fact, were you not repri- 
 inanded afterwards? 
 
 A. Yes ; but still I think I .explained that pretty well at the time, and 
 
 was not informed that it would be held in evidence against me. I wag 
 lot informed tliat it would. 
 
 Q. At any rate you were warned, if not reprimanded? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I was not warned that it would affect my increment. The 
 incident arose out of a mistake which any one might have fallen into at the 
 ime. It Ls true I wajf5 warned about it, but I was not informed that it 
 vould tell against my increment. I was not so instructed. 
 
 The Chairman : I understand you complain now that jiou were not made 
 iware of the exact rule under which the Dei>artment proceeds in the case 
 bf these punishments. I understand that to be the point you wish to make? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. I understand you admit the necessity of punishment, but that you wish 
 I regular scale or nile to be made known, so that 'you may know exactly 
 ivhat you are incurring for a particular offence? 
 
 A. Yes. We ask that a proper Departmental code of rules sliould exist 
 .vhereby the men should know what they are to be punislied for, and what 
 :lie punishment will be. But we think that stopping a man's increment is 
 ijruel and unjust, not only to himself, but because it may deprive his wife 
 and family of some necessaries. The system I would suggest, and I believe 
 the Department would admit it to be more effectual, would be a system of 
 iJrtra duty or something like that, instead of stopping a man's increment or wage. 
 Q. You have extra duty now in such a case? 
 A. No ; we merely work out the time we lose. 
 Q. Are you' not punished by extra duty as well? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have instances of that : instances of men being punished by 
 extra duty as well as loss of increment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Where your increment is merely deferred, you don't ulti- 
 mately lose the money, do you? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. I understand that where it is arrested you lose the money, but where 
 it is deferred for three months, if your conduct is good during these three 
 months you get back the. aiTears ? 
 A. This is a matter of lat« attendance, and not of general good conduct. 
 Q. I suppose the senior officer has to sign a certificate that a man's con- 
 duct and attendance has been good? 
 
 A. It is a matter of attendance ; for a postman may be the best conducted 
 man in the ofiice, and if he is late, that late alttendance will affect him just 
 -08 much ; no consideration is given in such a case to general conduct.
 
 ll(J U. BOALEH, N.W.D.O. 
 
 The Chairman : I think it is obvious that a series of lat« attendan.jes might 
 put the wliole working of the general delivery tremendously out of geao- ? 
 
 A. No ; jt does not. 
 
 Q. How? 
 
 A. Well, if there are three men on the walk and I am late, the other men 
 do my work, and the Department does not suffer in any shape or form. 
 The other men have to buckle to and do the work till I come, so that tliere 
 is no loss to the Department. 
 
 Q. But it is conceivable if there was laxity about insisting on regular at- 
 tendance thol all three men on that walk might be late or absent some 
 morning. 
 
 A. Not likely ; and I think it would have a much better effect if we had 
 a system of punishment for late attendances different from witholding of 
 income. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say the Department does not suffer, but do not the 
 public suffer from late deliveries if only two men are delivering on a walk 
 instead of three? 
 
 A. I was rather speaking of sorting work and similar duties. Two men 
 would not be sent out to do three men's deliveries. 
 
 Q. But the public must suffer if only two men are doing the work instead 
 of three? 
 
 A. I have never known n despatch to be delayed V>y a late attendance 
 during the whole tune of my service. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You mean that the other two men are not fully occupied 
 unless the third man is late? 
 
 A. No ; but a man can always strain a nerve when he is put to it to 
 assist another man. Late attendance may be accounted for as in the follow- 
 ing : —Over 50 j)er cent, of the jx)stmen have to be on duty at an early hour 
 — from 3 to 6 a.m. (this all the year round). It is in the early a^ttendances 
 where men are mostly late, but it is also possible to lose a few minutes Upon 
 collections. Owing to the exigencies of the Service, collections are regrdatei 
 to a minute ; therefore to a man who may, through no fault of liLs own, 
 not Vje in possession of a watch, and who has to depend ujion the uncertain 
 method of collecting by guess, a church or public-house clock is at the beSb 
 a most dangerous system. (Rule 45.) Our dutiesi last all the year round. 
 We do not rotate. We have a rule (No. 45), which states that we nmsb 
 not under any circumstances collect a minute or even half a minute before 
 our time ; we must wait until the exact time. But there are some places 
 where one caimot readily see a clock, ajid many of the young men cannot 
 afford to be the possessors of a watch, so tliat they have to guess the time, 
 and they may chance unfortunately to collect a minute before the proper 
 time, winch, if it were known, would incur official displeasure, and call for 
 explanation. If, on the other hand, they collect a little late, they are 
 thrown late in their arrival at the office. Now, these collections tike from 
 30 to 40 minutes, and the man in his round may have to make four to ten, 
 or perhaps thirteen calls, and he has to regulate his movements during all 
 the time, keeping an eye all the time on some clock. It is not always easy 
 to keep exact to the minute in a half-hour or forty minutes" collection at 
 many different places, where there may be a little delay even by the public i 
 asking questions or that sort of thing, so that men have often to use extra 
 energy to arrive at the proi>er time. Tlierefore it will lie seen that with 
 the usual chaince of a heavy collection, and sometimes hampered with bulky 
 parcels, it is quite possible for a man to lose two, three, and even four 
 minutes, which loss is recorded against him, although I am very pleased to j 
 Siiy that this is not a common occurrence. Wlien there are a number of | 
 I>eople in the receiving office buying stamps, etc., or signing for registered ! 
 letters, it is often difficult for a man to get forward promptly to .sign the 
 book. I liave been diclayod myself. Late attendance is not caused' by want 
 of energy, but through the mental and physical strain following a tiring and
 
 Punishments — Discipline. ll? 
 
 worrying day, causing a main to occasionally sleep through the unnatural 
 and artiticial means employed to wake him at an early hour of the morning. 
 When a postman retires to bed he is a tired man, pnj^sically ajid mentally. 
 The means employed to wa.ke a man early being usually an alarm clock, 
 although clocks are not always to be depended upon, as it occurs occasionally 
 that even they fail in their duty by stopping in tlie night, and when that 
 is not so it is possible and does occur that a tired man may fail to hear it, 
 his sense of heiiring having got used to the noise, particularly if a^ man has 
 a cold, "a common occurrence with postmen," or is otherwise unweli, 
 although not sufficiently ill for him to go off duty. 
 
 The Chairman : I think the tendency of ordinary human beings is to wake 
 at about the same hour every morning, even without the aid of an alarm 
 clock — -at least that is my exjierience. 
 
 A. It would no doubt be my ex}>erience, too, if I had not to turn out as 
 a rule at such an extremely early hour ; but some have to get up at half- 
 past 2 o'clock in the morning, and I have to get up at 4 o'clock every morn- 
 ing, summer and winter. 
 
 Q. I expect that if you found yourself in bed some day without actually 
 having to get up at that hour, you would probably wake all the same at 
 4 o'clock. 
 
 A. All I know is that I very seldom wake at 4 o'clock on a Simda'y morn- 
 ing. It is nearlj^ 8 or 9 o'clock before I wake up on a Sunday morning. If a 
 man is late it is usuc-ily not his own fault, and it is as much an annoyance to 
 himself as it is to tlie Department. Besides, when he goes into the office 
 late the fact is noted by his brother officers, and all ej^es are turned on him, 
 and it makes him feel very uncomfortable, for he is watched, and remarks 
 are passed. If a postman can avoid it, he will not make a late attendance. 
 Again, a man maiy be unwell and oversleep himself, aJthough his illness 
 would not be sufficient to excuse him. Postmen upon an average make 
 1,000 attendances in the course of 12 months, 700 of which he makes during 
 the day time, with an average of only 1 per 1,000 lates. The same applies 
 to men who are on day duty, and it is a fact that men on this class will 
 not, if they can possibly help it, perform an early duty owing to the severe 
 punishment for late attendance. A nuniljer of men when once they get on 
 a late duty will not, if they can help it, take early morning duty, especially 
 if they have in view anj' increment or stripes that miglit be endangered. 
 They will rather keep to the InJ'e duty, and I can mention cases in which 
 men have lost an increment or a stripe for late attendance, have not been 
 allowed to exchange to late duty. I have an instance in my own office. 
 It is that of a young man who iia,s had 12 year.s' service, and who should 
 have two stripes, but has not got tliem owing to being unfortunate in getting 
 up in the morning. There is a vacancy in the late delivery for which he 
 made application to the Postmaster, owing to his being a Ijad timekeeper, 
 and hoping that some man might take the early morning dedvery who could 
 give better attendance, but he was required to continue at the early morning 
 duty, so that his arrears rather tend t/o increa.se. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Don't you think we should have many more late attendances 
 if it wavs understood that all the men who were late in the early morning 
 would be transferred to the pleasant mid-day duty. 
 
 A. I don't think so. If the punishment for late attendance was not so 
 severe, we would get better men to come on the early class, but now they 
 will not do so. The cliief reason why some of them come on early duty is 
 that they may get a better share of the Christmas boxes ; but I think that is 
 rather short-sighted policy, for what they gain in Christmas boxes may be 
 lost and more than lost through late attendance in respect of their incre- 
 ment and stripes. When you consider that a, man may lose his increment 
 for two or three years in succession for late attendance, and that in any 
 case it must take him at least sixteen years to reach his maximum, it may 
 be almost a lifetime under certain circumstances before he does atta,in that 
 maximum in his class.
 
 118 H. BoALEii, N.W.D.O. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, even taking the extreme case in -which 
 the increment is arrested, if it is arrested for a year, and the man gets his 
 increment the following year, does he not get his double increment, so that 
 the time of reaching his maximum is not delayed? 
 
 A. Yes ; if he so unproves in the second year as to get the back money, 
 but if he does not show a sufficiently marked improvement — and we don't 
 always know what a sufficiently maxked improvement is — he would not get 
 it ; but that is only where a man's increment is deferred. If it is arrested 
 the first year he never regains it ? 
 
 Q. Although he may lose the money during one year he may still reach 
 the maximum at the same time? 
 
 A. Yes ; but he would have lost the £2 12s., and we complain that for 
 a man to lose £2 12s. for an average of something like twelve late attend- 
 ances is cruel and severe. 
 
 Q. Tliat is an extreme punishment. The more usual punishment in such 
 a case is for the increment to be deferred merely for three months, and as 
 ^ rule I suppose these men can regain it? 
 
 A. If a man's increment was deferred for six months and his record im- 
 proved, he might possibly get the back money. 
 
 Q. He would get the back money? 
 
 A. Yes ; but if his record did not greatly improve he would lose it. I 
 quite understand that punctuality is a very necessary qualification in all 
 postal employees — postmen in particular — but would ask exceptional con- 
 siderations owing to them performing exceptional duties. The system of 
 withholding a man's increment when due Is. is a strong cause of complaint, 
 when it is taken into consideration that it takes a man 16 years to reach 
 his maximimi, so that during that time a man has only been receiving the 
 mean average of £1 6s. per week. The loss of Is. is a serious one, especially 
 to men with families, but the loss does not end here. The question of punish- 
 ment to which my statement refers is to postmen a most .serious one, affect- 
 ing as it does our wages, our good conduct badges, and promotions. The 
 system of arresting increments which we claim as wages, is cruel and unjust, 
 considering that the Department is put to no monetary' loss for the offence 
 for which this puni.shment is inflicted ; also, the system of withholding 
 stripes, which is looked upon as a source of wage, as a further punishment 
 for offences occurrmg as long back as five years. I have a case in point 
 here. A young man in the Ser\"ice married and his w if e was an invalid, 
 and he had to sit up at nights often with her, which caused him to lose a lot of 
 time in his morning attendance. She died after a time through this illness, 
 nevertheless he lost his increment during that j'ear. Afterwards he so maxle 
 up the time that he regained, as Mr. Walpole has suggested, the double 
 increme^it. However, he lost the Vjack money, but the case did not end 
 there. Three years afterwards the matter was brought up against him when 
 his stripe beca^ie due, and owing to his having lost his increment three years 
 previously, his stripe 'was withheld. In another five years a third stripe was 
 due, and he made application for it, but he was told that lie would have to 
 serve six months more probation on account of the same circumstances 
 which had led to his loss of increment aind to the delay of his second stripe, 
 so that his third stripe was delayed for wliat occurred some six or seven 
 years previously. He says that during the five years he wrote two explana- 
 tions for late attendance, and was five tijnes late during the whole period, 
 and that he had one year and eight months without being late at all, but 
 when he applied about his stripes he was told that there were several things 
 against him. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Where did this man come from ? 
 
 A. Blackheath. 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that the man was punished by loss of in- 
 crement for five late attendances? 
 
 A. No ; thalb was his record during the five vears from the time his in-
 
 Punishments — Discipline. 119 
 
 crement was arrested. The original bad attendances were due to his being 
 unable to afford a nurse for his sick wife, which made him late in the morn- 
 ing ; but after his wife died he was able, as I have said, to ma;ke much 
 better attendances. 
 
 Q. What is the name of this man? 
 
 A. P. H. Cox. 
 
 Q. Did he represent to his .superiors that he had been late through sick- 
 ness at home? 
 
 A. I don't know. 
 
 Q. But you know that tlie Dei)artment ajwaya takes into consideration 
 when tliere is such trouble at home, does it not? (Cries of "Oh, oh.'") 
 
 The Chairman : Order, order. 
 
 A. No, sir ; a man might be sick himself, but he would have to come in 
 the morning and report the fact, even if he had to go back on account of his 
 illness, and if he came five or ten minutes late he would have to sign the 
 late book all the same when he did attend, and it would count against him. 
 I have mentioned that in the case of Cox he was told that there were several 
 serious complaints against him. The first and second of these had reference 
 to the fact that the letter-carrier who assisted him in the parcels duty 
 arrived ait the iS.O. fifteen minutes earlier than himself, and made up a 
 parcel hamper, labelling one empty, although there was a very small parcel 
 left in it unobserved from the general post delivery. Tlie assistant in his 
 explanation had stated that it wa^ entirely his fault, as Cox did not arrive 
 in the office until ten minutes after he had matle the hamper up, and this 
 occurred twice. The third complaint was that the assistant, having a lot 
 of large parcels to deliver on the general post delivery, did not arrive at 
 the S.O. till four minutes before the dispatch, with the result that a train 
 was lost, and that was brought against Cox as a reason why he should not 
 receive his stripe. 
 
 The Chairman : That rather goes against your argument that the late 
 attendance makes no difference to the punctuality of the dispatch of the de- 
 liveries. 
 
 A. It wa,"? not this man's fault ; it was his assistant who was late. 
 
 Q. I don't say it was his fault, but the inference is all the same if it wa^ 
 the other man's late attendance tliat caused the missing of that particular 
 train. You told us just now that you never had known a case of late at- 
 tendance delaying deliveries or interfering with the public convenience. 
 
 A. I was speaking then of the general post delivery. We don't have any 
 trains to catch in the general post delivery, for a man has simply to come 
 in and sort and arrange his letters before taking them out, so that there is 
 no possibility of a man missing a train in the general post delivery. The 
 fourth complaint against Cox was for delivering a letter torn at one end, and 
 the fifth was advising a C. docket insteald of a despatch note for a foreiga 
 parcel, although we maintain that this is sorters' duty. Postmen have in 
 such a case to take the responsibility of some sorters' duty without the re- 
 compense. The sixth and seventh complaints against Cox were for not 
 sending up a bill in the road despatch of parcels, and he adds on this point, 
 " The other letter-carriers saw me make it out, and I am certain I put it 
 in." These are the charges on account of which this man's third stripe is 
 being withheld for six months in order to see if he makes any other trifling 
 wrors. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You have given us no instance of la stripe being stopped 
 for eight laite attendances in twelve months. 
 
 A. There is a case of a man named Buchanan in the E.G. Office, who has 
 been waiting for his .stripe since June, 1895, because he was eight times late 
 in the year. This man's father was a postman before him, and died in the 
 Service after 30 year.s' work. 
 
 The Chairman : Ca,n you tell me v.hat is the sum total of his late attend- 
 ances?
 
 120 H. BoALER, N.W.D.O. 
 
 A. I cannot. But as ft rule my experience h tliat the Department makeB 
 no difference whether it is five minutes or an hour. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that the Department would make no difference whether 
 this man's late attendances amounted in all for that year to forty minutes or 
 to eight hours? 
 
 A. It would still be counteid against him as late. I may add that when 
 a miin has a good conduct badge due to him at the end of five years he oftea 
 does not receive it for periods of from three to eight months after that time, 
 and during the interval he is put under suj^rvision and watched to see 
 whether any little case crops up against liim that would enable the stripe 
 to be witliheld. 
 
 Q. I suppose that is where there has been some doubt whether his con- 
 duct has been previously sufficiently good to entitle hun to the stripe? 
 
 A. No ; it is a general practice. The stripes are held back for five or six 
 months. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not a fact that these stripes are sent out periodically 
 in batches to the Postmaster-General for approval, and that when they axe 
 delivered after they have become due they are ante-dated to the time when 
 they became due. 
 
 A. Yes ; but during the interval a man may be two or three times late, 
 which would be sufficient to stop him receiving liis stripe, whereas if he had 
 received tlie stripe at the proper time the same offence would not have been 
 sufficient to justify it Vieing taken away from him. I have a case here of a 
 three years' a^uxiliary postman appointed in October, 1888, on a I63. scale, 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Where is this man ? 
 
 A. It is a man at Clapton. 
 
 Q. An auxiliary postm3,n? 
 
 A. He entered a.s an auxiliary ; his name is Robert Charters. He entered 
 Rit the time of the 16s. minimum, so that a stripe became due on October 
 1st, 1893. 
 
 Q. His second-class service would not count for la stripe, would it? 
 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. I tliink you are wrong. I believe that in 1888 the second-class service 
 did not count for a .stripe. 
 
 A. I believe that rale refers to the 14s. scale, and not to the 16s. I got 
 my second stripe in my assistant letter-carriership. 
 
 Q. The Report of the Postman's Committee in 1891 states that in London 
 and some of the provincial towns where two clajsses of postmen exist, service 
 in the second class has not been allowed to count for good conduct stripes. 
 I know that was altered on this ReiX)rt after 1891. 
 
 A. I think the rule to which you have referred dealt with the juniors at 
 
 Q. I am told there was no 14s. cla^ at that time in London — that is in 
 1891. 
 
 A. Yes; I think I have a case here. 
 
 Q. When this Report was written I believe the minimum was 18s. 
 
 A. I have a letter liere which says, " With respect to your application, I 
 have to request that you will state what is your height in your boots, and 
 if your are eligible in this respect, whether you are willing to accept nomina- 
 tion as a junior letter-carrier with -wages commencing a^ 14s. a week, and 
 increasing by Is. a week to 18s. ?" 
 
 Q. What is the date of that letter? 
 
 A. 1881. 
 
 Q. But we were talking of a much later date than that. 
 
 A. I understood j-qu to isay, sir, that never was a 14s. minimum. 
 
 Q. I said there was not at the time you spoke of. 
 
 A. I was speaking of a 16s. man. 
 
 Q. You said my observations as to a certain rule applied to a 14s. minimum, 
 and not to the 16s. rate — that is what I imderstood you to say. 
 
 A. A number of men in the E.C. District who have done 15 years' service,
 
 Punishments — Discipline. 121 
 
 and have earned their second stripe, are now informed that they are not 
 entitl&rl to the third stripe owing to their having entered the Service at a 
 14s. minimum. This proves that these men received their first and second 
 stripe at the 14s., and it is only on the third stripe becoming due that they 
 are told the period of service at 14s. does not count. 
 
 Q. I don't accept the .statement that it proves that. 
 
 A. Tiiere are 20 men in the E.C. District now waiting for stripes. 
 
 Q. When was the answer you have quoted sent? 
 
 A. As late as last montli. 
 
 Q. They cemplain, I under.stand, that at the end of the five years aad ten 
 years' service they got their stripes, hut that now at the end of 15 years they 
 are told that they nuist wait an indefinite time before they are entitled to 
 tlieir third stripe. 
 
 A. They did not receive the fifst stripe at the end of the five yfears, but 
 they received two stripes at the end of ten }T3ars, which amounts to pretty 
 much the sam.e thing ; but now at tlie completion of 15 years' sei'vice they 
 are informed that the^ junior serv'ice does not count, yet they received their 
 fif.st ajid second stripes on that score. 
 
 Mr. Walpole ; Perhaps you will give me the names of these men and I 
 will look it Up? 
 
 A. I am afraid I cannot ; there are 20 of them. Mr. Churclifield will sup- 
 plv the names later on. 
 
 ^he Chairman : May it not turn out that the result of this Infjuiry will 
 show that they ought not to have received two stripes at the end of ten 
 years? 
 
 A. I hope not, or else I shall be a .sufferer as well. 
 
 Q. But it may be the case that so far from having been damnified by not 
 getting their third stripe now, it will come out that at the end of ten years 
 they got something more than they ought to have haxl? 
 
 A. If so the Department sliould have found this out l)efore, ajid not waited 
 till now. I think that is all I have to say with reference to excessive punish- 
 ment. I am informed there are men in the room at the present time who 
 received the first stripe at the end of five years' service, including second- 
 class service as well. In conclusion, I would ask that a.s the exigencies of 
 the Service demand punctualiity, aiil naturally a punisliment for any depar- 
 ture from it, all cases of late attendance be punished M'itli extra duty, and 
 in extreme cases by the loss of the G.C.B., but even then for the space of 
 one year only, as I feel sure thalt the .system of withholding' them for sucli a 
 length of time as five years lends 'to defeat rather than support the object 
 it has in view, as a man who knows that it is quite impossible for him to 
 obtain or regain them when once lost under five years, loses heart ; but on the 
 other hand, as in the army and navy, maike it possible for him to regain 
 himself in 12 months, he would with renewed energi^i try to do so. I should 
 say that if a man loses his stripe or increment, and knows that he has five 
 years in front of him, during whicli it may be impossible for him to regain 
 it, he loses heart and energy becaXise of the obstacles in his way. 
 
 The Chairman : You would punish late attendances by fines? 
 
 A. I think that would be a better system. It is practised by .the police. 
 If a policeman is late he may perhaps lose a day's pay. That would be 
 better than losing a year's increment. 
 
 Q. Is not that very often the practice in the provinces with regard to 
 postmen ? 
 
 A. Yes. my lord ; I think it would prove a better system. It would have 
 a better effect on the men if they lo.st money. It would not affect them in 
 the end, because they would keep better time. The present system as it 
 stands carries with it a double punishment. It affects a man in the matter 
 of both increment and stripes, which we look forward to as part of our 
 wages. In any event, they are held out as part of our wages. 
 
 Q. At the same time you will admit thiat a man who is guilty of persistent 
 late attendance could hardly be considered a man of very good conduct?
 
 122 H. BuALER, N.W.D.O. 
 
 A. No ; not if he is persistenly late. But when a man is only late from 
 10 to 18 times in the course of 1,000 attendances in all weiithers and all 
 seasons of the 3'eair, I do not think that is persistent late attendance. iSeeing 
 that a man nmy have to sign for two minutes late, land he must not be 
 18 times late in the year, I do not think if he keeps within that rule he can 
 be considered a bad attendant, or a man of bad character. There is another 
 little question tliat I should like to refer to, and that is with regard to the 
 tliird stripe. The first and second stri{)es are unlimited in number, but in 
 the matter of third stripes the percentage issued to men in one olHce must 
 not exceed 30 per cent. That is to say, if tliere are a hundred men in an 
 office, no matter how many are entitled to the third stripe, no more than 
 30 can be issued. I have not found many offices where the men are suffering 
 from this, but still there is a possibility of a man after completing 15 years" 
 service having to wait for a vacancy — for another man to die. I think that 
 a ma.n after 15 yearsf service is qui'te as much entitled to a little encourage- 
 ment in the shape of an additional stripe as a man with 10 years' service. 
 It would not be a grea.t matter for the Department to grant this concession. 
 It is not one which would affect thousands of men, but it would ap2)ly to 
 a few here and there, and I think it is a concession that might easily l)e 
 granted \)y the Department. 
 
 The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where men have failed to get 
 it? 
 
 A. No. my lord; I do not. But still there is the possibility. Personally 
 I have never cx)me across a man who has thus suffered. 
 
 Mr. Wali>ole : Is not the probability very remote indeed of a loss of thai 
 kmd? 
 
 A. I think it is myself. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact tliat many hundred third stripes are vacant in London 
 at the present moment? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is a fact. It is very seldom that 30 men out of 100 live to do 
 15 years' service. I have just been informed there are three full-time me:i 
 at Hampstead waiting for their tliird stripe owing to the 30 per cent, being 
 filled up. 
 
 Q. But is not Hampstead a part of London? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : I understood the witness to say the system applied to 
 individual offices. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I tliink London is taken as a whole. 
 
 A. No. I am informed the percentage is taken for individuajl offices, and 
 that is how it is that three men are waiting for the stripe at Hampstead. 
 Q. But in London, as we all know, there is a large number of vacancies? 
 A. Yes : Vnit this difficulty only exists at a few offices where there are a 
 large number of senior men. I am also asked to mention that a number of 
 men in the City are waiting for their stripes, and have been waiting nearly 
 12 months. They have made application, and have been informed that they 
 will be down in due course. It is the system of withholding .stripes for 12 
 months wliich is a real cause of grievance. A man thinks that having a 
 I'ecoixl of good conduct for five years he should have his stripe at once, and 
 not have to wait 12 months for it. 
 
 The Chairman : They will date bapk ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but the possibility is that during the 12 months some little thing 
 may crop up which will t;ike it away from them. Really, a man has to 
 serve six years' probation instead of five for a stripe. In thanking you, my 
 lord and gentlemen, I should like to express a hope that j^ou understand our 
 feelings as did the late Mr. Raikes, who, in a speecli at the G.P.O., in July, 
 1890, remarked — " I can quite understand the feelings of men who think one 
 punishment ought to suffice for an offence. When you have paid the 
 penalty of the enormous crime of sleeping a few minutes too late, it seems 
 hard that the maltter should be again brought up against him and so be made 
 a permanent offence." Thus Mr. Raikes saw the hardship of our position, 
 and said he considered it was a hard system of punishment.
 
 ALFRED F. HARRIS, W.D.O., 
 
 G.^ueral Treasurei'. 
 
 PUOMOTIOV. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, Feb. 24, 1896. 
 
 Lord Tweedmouth's Committee resumed its inquiry on Monday, February 
 24, all the members being present, and the room being crowded by postmen, 
 who are taking a keen intei'est in the proceedings from day to day. 
 
 'J'he first witness called was Alfred F. Harris, who was examined as 
 follows : — 
 
 The Chairman : You are a postman in the Western District Office, I 
 fancy? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. How long has your service been? 
 
 A. 19^ years. 
 
 Q. What is the particular point you are going to talk about? 
 
 A. The promotion question, my lord. 
 
 Q. Have you a statement prepared for us? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 The Chairman : Very well, read it. 
 
 Witness : With your permission, sir, I wish to preface my remarks on pro- 
 motion by touching on the wages question. I fincl on perusing the Estimates 
 thri following curious facts, that notwithst-.mding that other branches of 
 the Service have advanced in the matter of wages during tlie past ten years, 
 the wages of the postman has materially decreased, although there has been 
 an increase in t;he maximum of 2s. per week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you speaking for the London postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. In 1886 the sorting staff numbered 2,227, with wages 
 amounting to £191,288, or a mean wage of £1 13s. 2d. The postmen num- 
 bered 2,760, with wages amounting to £191,280, or a mean wage of 
 £1 6s. 7^d. In 1896 the sorting staff numbers 4,251, with wages amounting 
 to £389,908, or a mean wage of £1 16s. 2d., whilst that of the postmen 
 nunil)er 5,198, with wage.s amountmg to £352,818, or a mean wage of 
 £1 5s. llfd., thus showing that whereas the sorting staff mean wage has 
 risen by 3s. per week, or an increa.se of £33,157 16s. per year, that of the 
 postmen has decreased by 8d. per man j>er week, meaning a saving to 
 the Department of £9,009 17s. 4d. per year. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you taking established postmen only, or postmen and 
 ouxiliaries? 
 
 A. Established postmen. 
 
 Q. You are dealing only with established postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; in this case. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is all I want to know ? 
 
 Witness: I wish to hand in two tables which will bear out my statement.
 
 
 £79,414 
 
 87.791 
 
 8,102 
 
 15,921 
 
 6,*996 
 84,051 
 23,278 
 27,266 
 31,259 
 12,244 
 
 
 174,540 
 215,368 
 
 190.'735 
 11,632 
 48,269 
 73.923 
 11,712 
 596 
 
 l^iox 
 
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 2760 
 
 
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 ■^3530 1 : CI : 70 ::::::: : 
 s^jaijojinof* 1 '^ • • '•" 
 
 
 
 Ist Class Overseers, - 
 
 2nd „ 
 
 1st „ Sorters, 
 
 2nd „ 
 
 3rd „ 
 
 Boy Sorters, 
 
 Lobby Officers, 
 
 Head Postmen, 
 
 1st Class Postmen, - 
 
 2nd ,, 
 
 Suburban ,, IstDiv.. 
 ,, 2na „ 
 ,, 3rd ,, 
 
 
 Overseers, 1st Class, 
 2nd ,, - 
 Sorters, Ist Class, - 
 M 2nd „ - 
 Lobby Officers, 
 Postmen, Town, 
 ,, Head, 
 ,, Zone 1, 
 
 „ 2, - 
 
 M 4, -
 
 Promotion. 12'^ 
 
 The Chairman: How do you account for the alleged ilecpease, Mr. Harris? 
 
 A. I cannot account for it at all. 
 
 (). The wage.^ have risen? 
 
 A. It must lie the increase of the staff and tlie larger number of new 
 Mtrants, I think. 
 
 C^. A larger proportion of junior men? 
 
 A. That is exactly the case, I think, my lord. 
 
 Q. Are you including in your statement with regard to sorters the 
 ivi-rseers ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Not the wages of the overseers? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you wish us to assume from these tables that although other 
 r.rauche^ of the Service have gone forward, the postmen have gone back? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You prove that by your statement without these tables? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And I do not know that the tables could prove more? 
 
 A. No, sir ; but they give you figures wliich I have summarised in the 
 statement in a tabulated form. 
 
 (^. But still your statement summarises the argument which you Mjsh to 
 bring out? 
 
 A. Exactly, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What do you make the wages of the postmen now? 
 
 A. Giving the whole sum? 
 
 Q. Yes. What were they last year, for instiince? 
 
 A. £352,818. I nught explain here that t'at includes boot money and 
 tth*. stri])e allowances. 
 
 INfr. Walpole : Ju.ft so ; tliat explains the difference, as the figure I had 
 was £336,000. Is it not the case that during the last 15 years the minimum 
 of tlie postmen's wages has been raised? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And i.s it not the case that the maximum has also been raised? 
 
 A. Yes; in one case, however, the minimum of the postmen wa.s 
 lowered. 
 
 Q. But the minimum used to be 16s. ? 
 
 A. It was 18s., then it was lowered to 16s., and then again raised to IBs. 
 
 Q. And the maximum was also raised? 
 
 A. Yes ; by 2s. 
 
 Q. Must not tlie decrease of the average wage be due to the large increase in 
 the postmen's force, and the consequently large number of men low down 
 in the scale? 
 
 A. Exactly so ; but should not the same l)e the ca.se in the sorting staff. 
 Their force has been increased in the same proportion as the postmen. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Your point is that this comparative statement 
 of tlie scales of pay shows that the postmen's scale has not advanced so 
 much as that of the sorter? 
 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. And not that the postman has been reduced? 
 
 A. That is so. In speaking on the question of promotion, tlie Com- 
 mittee will have gathered that it is one of the chief grievances of the Postal 
 Service. In 1886 the staff of postmen in London numbered 2,775 ; at the 
 present time the staff consists of 5,210, or an increase of 2,435 ; thus in 
 10 years the staff has nearly doubled itself. I may explain here that through- 
 out my case I have taken an average of 10 years. For years past postmen 
 have brought the matter of future prospects up again and again, but with 
 little success, not l:>ecause their claims were not reasonable, but simply 
 because the Department would not recognise them. In 1892. on this
 
 126 
 
 Alf. F. Harris, W.D.O. 
 
 question, postmen j>etitioned the Right Hon. Sir .Tam<^s Fergusson, M.P 
 (H.M.P.G.), in the following terms: — 
 
 "Your petitioners are reluctantly compelled to express their surprise, 
 that after the repeated applications they have matle for the removal of the' 
 present unfair system pursued by the Department respecting their promo- 
 tion, it should be necessarj" to approach you to affect a refoi-m scj urgently 
 needed, not only in the interests of j'our j>etitioners, but also of the 
 Postal Service. The defects are : 
 
 " (a) The habitual violating of the agreement made with most, if not all 
 of your petitioners when they entered the Service, mainly brought about 
 thiough allowing new entrants into the Postal Service the first opportunity 
 to compete for suf>erior appointments. 
 
 " (b) The long probation which those officer.? who are fortunate enough 
 to be nominated for promotion have to serve at a personal loss, and ;i 
 profit to the Department. 
 
 " (c) The absence of information respecting the appointments and quali- 
 fications for higher grades of the Service. " 
 
 An answer to the foregoing was received in June, 1892: — 
 
 " As regards the request that postmen working superior duties should 
 receive an allowance during their probation. Sir James Fergusson observes 
 that postmen, like other Post Office servants, are tried on superior duties 
 before promotion; but that, of course, promotion — whicli the grant of a 
 special allowance would practically be — caiuiot be given to them until they 
 have proved their fitness. 
 
 " (3) Promotion. — A list of appointments to which postmen, among other 
 officers, are eligible for promotion is appended : — 
 
 APPOINTMENTS FOR WHICH POSTMEN ARE ELIGIBLE. 
 
 Qualific>ition. 
 
 Appointment. 
 
 Scale. 
 
 
 Messengers, 
 
 21/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 40/- 
 
 Head Messengers ) 
 (Senior and Assistant),) 
 
 45/- 
 
 1/6 
 
 50/- 
 
 Head Messengers, ... 
 
 50/- 
 
 2/- 
 
 60/- 
 
 Lobby Officers, 
 
 (20/- 
 
 130/- 
 
 1/6 
 1/6 
 
 38/- 
 
 45/- 
 
 Sorters, 2, d Class, ... 
 
 (18/- 
 l then 
 
 V- 
 
 2/- 
 
 20/- 
 40/- 
 
 Overseers, 2nd Class, 
 
 40/- 
 
 2/- 
 
 56/- 
 
 Overseers, Ist Class, 
 
 5G;'- 
 
 2/- 
 
 68/- 
 
 Overseers of Telegra ph ) 
 Mefsengers, ...| 
 
 20/- 
 
 v- 
 
 30/- 
 
 ' 
 
 
 
 Inspectors, 
 
 X-I75 
 
 £10 
 
 £280 
 
 Inspectors of Telegraph \ 
 
 
 
 
 Mes8enger8,3rd Class •- 
 E.C. Dist., ) 
 
 30/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 36/- 
 
 
 
 
 ?,r.J Class, Met Dist., 
 
 »2/- 
 
 1 fl 
 
 38/- 
 
 2nd Class, 
 
 40/- 
 
 2/- 
 
 48/. 
 
 1st Class, 
 
 50/- 
 
 2/- 
 
 58/- 
 
 Supervisors, Lower ^ 
 
 £175 
 
 £10 
 
 £800 
 
 iT^cction, \ 
 
 
 
 
 Supervisors, Upper > 
 Section ) 
 
 £175 
 
 £10 
 
 £350 
 
 
 
 
 Postmasters, ... 
 
 at various rates. 
 
 Mail (Officers at Rail-) 
 
 30/1 
 
 1/G 
 
 45/- 
 
 way Stations, ...j 
 
 and 5/ 
 
 - allow 
 
 a nee. 
 
 Usually selected 
 from men not 
 over 40 years of 
 age. 
 
 Examination by 
 Civil Service 
 Commis^-ion. 
 Limits of age, 
 18-2L
 
 Promotion. 127 
 
 The Committee will observe that this list is open to postmen, "among 
 other officers " ; practicallj this list is misleiding to a postman (with one 
 exception, i.e., 1st class sorters). These appointments are the only ones 
 open to the postmen in conjunction with other classes. It may be men- 
 tioned that two appointments that were open to postmen 10 years ago — 
 i.e., coimternien and writing assistants — have been erased from the list. 
 Now, I will consiiler in detail the list of appointments as given. Messen- 
 gers form tlie first item. Postmen have taken, and do take, advantage of 
 this appointment, but they are only successful after many applications. 
 There have only been five postmen at the W.D.O. in 15 years who have been 
 thus appointed, two of whom applied 18 months previous to promotion. 
 I may state that of those who a^iplied when tlie list I have just read was 
 placed up in the office, none got an appointment at the time, but since 
 this Committee has been sitting three or four men have been appointed. 
 The second and tldrd items are head messengers, which are only reached 
 through the aforesaid appointment. The fourth item— i.e., the positions of 
 lobl)y officers, of whicli there are but 53 in London — ^are generally obtained 
 by postmen on their maximum, or after they have been in the Service 
 over 20 years. As to the fifth item — i.e., 2nd class sorter — reference will 
 be made to this later. 1st and 2nd class over.seers are usually appointed 
 fi-om lobby officers and head postmen, and a few — a very few — from the 
 ranks of postmen. It is to be noticed that it is in the E.C. District that 
 the promotion to overseers is obtained by postmen to the 1st class in 
 th';' Metropolitan districts being limited to that of the 2nd class. My 
 lord, we consider this a distinct grievance, seeing that the postmen perform 
 the same duties in the Metropolitan District as they do in the East Central 
 District. We think that 1st class overseerships should be open in the same 
 proportion to the Metropolitan District officers as to those in the City. 
 
 The Chairman : I suppose that postmen who are appointed 2nd class 
 over.seers rise to the 1st class overseers, do they not? 
 
 A. Exactly so, sir. But I may state that we only had one postman 
 appointed overseer at the Western District Office ever since I have been there. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: But a postman can Ijecome a head postman and then an 
 overseer ? 
 
 A. Tiiere is no such tiling as a lie id postman in district offices. They 
 are only to be found in suburl»an offices. With regard to overseers of tele- 
 graph messengers, it is unnecessary to say anything beyond this, that their 
 maximum pay is lower than that of a postman. Inspectors — These positions, 
 which properly enough were formerly within the reach of, and were ob- 
 tained by postmen, are now practicilily unobtainable by them owing to the 
 larger share of promotions falling to the lot of the sorting staff. Inspectors 
 of telegraph messengers — Whence come the inspectors of telegraph messen- 
 gei's is a query. That they do not come from the ranks of the postmen 
 is a certainty, now this class has been made redundant to postmen for 
 some years. Supervisors (upjwr and lower) — The statement with regard 
 to inspectorships applies er^ually to supervisors. Postmasters — This posi- 
 tion is not on record as ever having been reached by a postman in London, 
 I may state. Mail officers at railway stations — The number of these officials 
 is nine, all of whom are promoted from the inland branch porters. Thirty 
 years ago all promotions were open to letter-carriers, but at the present 
 time but few are so, owing to certain anomalies of the Service. The num- 
 ber of promotions is insufficient for the large and ever-increasing st;itf ; tlie 
 increase of the former is not in proportion with that of the latter. Es- 
 pecially in the case of postmen is this most noticeable ; for insttince, if we 
 take the skxff of Dublin and that of the London W.D.O. , and compare the 
 superintending officers: — In the Dul)lin sorting office there are 57 sui)er- 
 intending officers to a statf of 529, wiiile in tlie W.D.O. the proportion is 
 39 to 657. I beg to hand in a tiible showing this :
 
 128 
 
 Alf. F. Harris, W.D.O. 
 
 DUBLIN. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 SOBTING OFFICE. 
 
 Mini- 
 mum. ' 
 
 Incre- 
 ment. 
 
 Maxi- 
 mum. 
 
 
 £ 
 
 8. 
 
 £ 
 
 8. 
 
 £ S. 
 
 1 Controller, 
 
 550 
 
 
 
 20 
 
 
 
 650 
 
 4 Superintendents, 
 
 300 
 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 .S90 
 
 5 Ass't. Superintenflents, 1st Class 
 
 250 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 WO 
 
 12 As't. Superintendents, 2nd Class, 
 
 200 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 250 
 
 29 Clerks (late Overseer**), 
 
 15) 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 190 
 
 57\ 1 Inspector of Postmen,... 
 
 210 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 260 
 
 
 1 Ass't. do., let CNss. 
 
 170 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 200 
 
 
 4 Ass't. do., 2nd Class, 
 
 120 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 170 
 
 
 62 J-'orting Clerks 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 2 16 
 
 201 Sorting Clerks, 2nd Class, ... 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 2 
 
 162 Postmen, 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 10 
 
 47 Labourers, &c. ,... 
 
 _ 
 
 _ 
 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 Totul, 629. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 W. D. 0. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 SORTING OFFICE. 
 
 Mlni- 
 niuin. 
 
 Incre- 
 ment. 
 
 Maxi- 
 mum. 
 
 
 £ 
 
 8. 
 
 £ 
 
 F. 
 
 £ S, 
 
 1 Supervisor, 
 
 — 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 — 
 
 3 Inspectors, 
 
 175 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 280 
 
 12 Oversees, 1st Class, 
 
 2 
 
 16 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 3 8 
 
 nq/ 19 Overseers, 2nd CI iss 
 
 '*"'j 29 Sorters, 1st Class, 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 2 16 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 2 16 
 
 197 Sorters, 2nd Class, 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 2 
 
 83;> Poi^tmen, 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 14 
 
 4 LoLby Officers 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 2 8 
 
 53 Labourers, Auxiliaries, &(.■ 
 
 - 
 
 — 
 
 
 _ 
 
 — 
 
 Tot.al, 657. 
 
 
 
 
 In 1886 tlie superintending officers at the W.D.O. were as 1 in 15, at the 
 present time they are as 1 in 17. The appointments liave gradually 
 diminished to postmen, and proportionately increased to the sorting staff 
 since tlie Fawcett scheme revision — the proportion of appf)intnients to 
 overseers was delined as two to sorbers and one to postmen, hut it is found 
 that this has not been adhered to, iniismuch as in the past ten years tlie 
 promotions to overseerships hare been as follows : — 
 
 
 
 No. of 
 
 No. of 
 
 Diatriot. 
 
 
 Appointed 
 
 Appointed 
 
 
 
 Sorters. 
 
 Fostmen. 
 
 E.C.D.O., - 
 
 . 
 
 12 
 
 6 
 
 W.C.D.O., - 
 
 - 
 
 21 
 
 2 
 
 W.D.O.. 
 
 - 
 
 16 
 
 1* 
 
 Paddington D.O., - 
 
 - 
 
 11 
 
 
 E.D.O., 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 
 2 
 
 8.W.D0., - 
 
 . 
 
 15 
 
 
 S.E.D.O., - 
 
 - 
 
 19 
 
 • ■• 
 
 N.D.O., 
 
 - 
 
 12 
 
 
 N.W.D.O , - - - 
 
 • 
 
 16 
 
 ... 
 
 * This one pronaoted to Sub-OflBce.
 
 Promotion. 1 29 
 
 Mr. Smith : In the E.O.D.O. the proportion is two to one, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; but it is only in the case of the City that that has been carried 
 out. The City postmen seem to be favoured in that respect. 
 
 Q. When you said just now that the proportion was defined. to be two 
 to one, I did not understand you to state by whom it was defined. Is it to 
 be found in any official document? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. In 1884 a deputation waited upon tlie late Mr. Jeffreys, 
 then the controller, and after listening to them he sanctioned it. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: 'Wlio? 
 
 A. The late Mr. Jeffreys. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Have you a copy of the order issued, or of any official 
 document showing it? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have not been able to get it. 
 
 The Chairman : Was it said by Mr. Jeffreys in answer to a deputation ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; and in proof of it we find that in the City it is faith- 
 fully carried out. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : And you complain that it is not carried out in the other 
 cases you have quoted? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Was it not rather an expression of hoi^e that he would be 
 able to carry it out in general than a definite undertaking? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it was a definite undertaking. 
 
 ilr. Smith : There must be a record of it somewhere, then ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you sure it was a record reduced to writing, or was it a 
 suggestion fjased upon what ha<l taken place in the past? 
 
 A. No, sir; I have only this to go by, that it has been faithfully carried 
 out in the City. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : " Faithfully carried out " by people who did not know of its 
 existence. The present controller does not know of the existence of this 
 regulation. 
 
 A. I am informed it is part of the Fawcett scheme which was brought in 
 at the time of the sorters' revision. 
 
 The Cliairman : Were the jxistmen to receive promotion over the sorters? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What proportion of the whole staff of London ix)stmeu have received 
 promotion during the last two years? 
 
 A. Do you mean the number, my lord? 
 
 Q. Yes ; you have about 5,000 postmen in London, and I want to know 
 how many promotions tliey have had? 
 
 A. There have been 38 api^ointed as lobby officers, 13 messengers, and 
 125 in the suburban districts. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: As what? 
 
 A. Either head postmen or overseers. If they had been appointed over- 
 seers they have previously been head postmen. 
 
 Q. That is within the last year? 
 
 A. There have also 15 been appointed in tlie district offices. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you mean they were all promoted in one year — last 
 yeai ? 
 
 A. No, they are the number in 10 years ; the whole of my arguments 
 are based on a 10 vears' average, and we find that Ln the suburban ofiSces 
 there have been 126 appouitments, a list of which I have obtained. There 
 are 69 offices. 
 
 Q. According to your figures the average of appointments have Ix'en 
 20 a year ? 
 
 A. Yes, for the wliole staff. 
 
 Q. That has been the av^erage for the last 10 years for the whole sUiS"? 
 
 A. Yes ; and we find it very difficult in the case of tlie sorting staff'. 
 I might state that in the suburban offices there is no one but postmen to 
 promote ; if they were sorters in those offices undoubtedly tliey would
 
 130 
 
 Alf. F Hakkis, W.D.O, 
 
 have received many of the appointments which have been given to postmen. 
 I liave liere a table showing the numljer of appointments obt;iinud by post- 
 men at the suburban offices I Iiave alluded to : — 
 
 Table Showing the Nimhkji of Appointments obtainkd hv Postmkn 
 
 IN THE SuiiUKBAN (OB ZOKES) OF LoKDON DURING THE PAST TeN YeABSS. 
 
 Sorting Office. 
 
 Acton, W., 
 
 Anerley, S.E. , 
 
 Blackhcath, S.E , 
 
 Barne-i, S. W. , 
 
 Balham, S.W,, 
 
 Bethnal Green, E., 
 Catford Bridge, S.E.,... 
 
 Chelsea, S.W. , 
 
 Chiswick, W., 
 
 Clapham, S.W., 
 Clapton, E., 
 Deptford, S.E., 
 
 Dulwich, S.E., 
 
 Ealing, W., 
 
 Earl's Court, S.W 
 
 Eulham, S.W., 
 
 Einchley, North. N., ... 
 Einchley, East, N., 
 Forest Gate, E., 
 Hammersmith, W. , 
 Greenwich, S.E. , 
 Hackney, E., ... 
 Hampstcad, N.W., 
 
 Hendon, N.W., 
 
 Heme Hill, S.E , 
 
 Highbury, N., 
 
 Highgate, N., 
 
 H( lloway, N. , ... 
 
 Homcrton, E. , 
 
 Ilornsey, N., 
 
 Kentish Town, N.W.,... 
 
 Kensington, W., 
 
 Kilburn, N.V/ 
 
 Lee, S.E., ... 
 
 Lewisham, S.E. , 
 
 Leyton, E., 
 
 Leytonstone. E. , 
 
 MaidaHiU, W., 
 
 Mill Hill, N.W. , 
 
 Mortlake, S.W., 
 
 New Cross, S.E , 
 
 New Wandsworth, S.W. 
 
 North Kensington, W., 
 
 North Woolwich, E., ... 
 
 Norwood, S.E. , 
 
 
 Overiieers. 
 
 C J(3 
 
 1 from 
 2 
 
 H.r 
 
 •c'g 
 
 c o 
 
 37 
 
 33 
 
 I 1 I (i I 12
 
 
 Promotion. 
 
 
 
 131 
 
 TAIJLE SHEWING NUMBER OF APPOINTMENTS — Continued, 
 
 Sorting Office. 
 
 d 
 
 Overseers. 
 
 
 00 
 
 Appointments 
 to Porters. 
 
 Brought forward, 
 
 a 7 
 
 ;3:] 
 
 1 
 
 6 
 
 12 
 
 NottiDg Hill, W., 
 
 ... 
 
 
 • .« 
 
 • •• 
 
 
 Peckham, S.E., 
 
 4 
 
 2 
 
 ... 
 
 
 
 Plaistovr, E. 
 
 >•• 
 
 
 
 ... 
 
 ... 
 
 Putney, S.W 
 
 5 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 ... 
 
 Rotherhithe, S.E., 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 *.. 
 
 ... 
 
 South Kensington, S.W., 
 
 
 
 
 
 ... 
 
 St. John's Wood, N W., 
 
 "i 
 
 4 
 
 
 .•• 
 
 
 Stock well, S.W , 
 
 •1 
 
 1 
 
 ... 
 
 
 
 Stoke Newington, N.,... 
 
 i 
 
 2 
 
 ... 
 
 
 
 Sydenham, S.E., 
 
 ... 
 
 1 
 
 
 "3 
 
 
 The Hyde, N.W., 
 
 
 • •> 
 
 
 
 
 Tooting, S.W. 
 
 ... 
 
 1 
 
 ... 
 
 
 
 Tottenham, N, , 
 
 ... 
 
 
 .•• 
 
 
 ... 
 
 Victoria Docks, E., ... 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 ... 
 
 Stratford, E., 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 • •• 
 
 
 Walworth, S.Pl, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 Wandsworth, S.W. , ... 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 ... 
 
 ... 
 
 Wa 1 th am sto w , H , 
 
 1 
 
 ... 
 
 • •• 
 
 
 
 West Brotupton, S.W., 
 
 2 
 
 ... 
 
 • ■• 
 
 ..• 
 
 
 "West Ivonsingto 1, W. , 
 
 
 
 .*• 
 
 
 ... 
 
 West Norwood, S.E. , ... 
 
 ,.. 
 
 I 
 
 
 
 
 Wood Green, N., 
 
 ... 
 
 1 
 
 ... 
 
 i 
 
 
 Wimbledon, S.W., 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 ... 
 
 Winchmoro Hill, N., ... 
 
 65 
 
 1 
 
 
 ... 
 
 
 09 Offices. 
 
 59 
 
 1 
 
 10 
 
 12 
 
 X Telegraphist. 
 69 Offices obtains 126 appointments — in average of 2 to each Office, 
 Postman promoted every five years. 
 1,258 Suburban Postmen in 1886. 2,252 ditto in 1895. 
 
 or 1 
 
 With the exception of the E.G. and W.C.D.O., those postmen are pro- 
 Kioted to suburban offices. In reference to the list of overseers' appoint- 
 ments, it will be found that whereas po.stmen liave only received 15 ap- 
 poirtments to overseers, in the case of the sorters the number of appoint- 
 ments have been 127, showing that the sorters have received more tlian 
 eight times the number of appointments than postmen, and proving that 
 a great injustice has been done us. Tliere are in London 684 officers 
 wearing three stripes, 475 wearing two stripes, and 1,025 wearing a stripe, 
 who have practically only lobby officers and a few messengerships open to 
 them for promotion, and scarcely any one of these officers considers that 
 a 2nd class sortership would be promotion, owing to the fact tliat they 
 would forfeit their seniority'' and go to the bottom of the class. This was 
 altogether different previous to the introduction of the sorting staff, and 
 postmen were then in receipt of 45 per cent, of the appointments, thus 
 showing that a junior staff has been introduced to the detriment of the 
 senior staff. I may state that messengerships are open to porters, and 
 that thev obtain a large number of the appointmcnt-s. There are only 44
 
 132 Alf. F. Harris, W.D.O. 
 
 messengers in the whole •£ the London district, and 53 lobby officers, so 
 
 that will give you some sort of idea of the number of appointments there are 
 open to postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What do you mean by junior staff? Do you mean that the 
 sorting staff is a junior t^talf ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they have been established since the postmen. 
 
 Q. Then you mean that they are junior in respect of the d;ite of their 
 ajj] ointment to the establishment? 
 
 A. Exactly. On the authority of Mr. Salmon, Postmaster of the Western 
 District, it may be stated that the latter was in a peculiar situation, seeing 
 that there were no suburban offices to appoint postmen to, but this by the 
 foregoing figures seems to be the case of every dustricb oflice, and even if 
 this were not so, unless an amalgamate<l seniority list had been established, 
 it is decidedly against the suburban postman to promote a district man 
 over his head. Tliis has been done in the various districts, with the ex- 
 cej'tion of tlie three I have mentioned. No doubt it would assist greatly 
 if I pointed out the method adopted with regard to promotion. Two lads 
 passing a Civil Service examination and obtaining an appointment termed 
 boy sorters (since redundant) enter the Service the same day, they run 
 side by side for three years. Avhen they should both be on the verge of a 
 2nd class sortership, but owing to there being no vacancies for this class, 
 and a large number of vacancies for 2nd class letter-carriers, these lads 
 are told to make an application for the latter appointment — or the chances 
 would bo that their services would have to be dispensed with. One lad 
 under protest applies, not wishing to lose his situation, and speedily ob- 
 tains the position of 2nd class letter-carrier. Tlie other (presumably not 
 caring whether he stayed in the Service or not, because he disregarded the 
 instructions given to him) stays on as a boy sorter, and before long obtains 
 the position of a 2nd class sorter (without a further Civil Service exam.), 
 and when the Metropolitan districts were placed upon a footing with the 
 E.G. District by the Fawcett scheme coming into operation, he obtained a 
 1st class sortership (without exam.), and finally he reached a 2nd class 
 overseersiiip (still without exam.). To revert to the lad who obtained the 
 position of 2hd class letter-carrier, after a given period he is promoted 
 as iet class letter-carrier, and is now wearing three stripes, showing that 
 he performed his duty in a proper and efficient manner. If this man seeks 
 promotion now, he is told that he can apply for a 2nd class sortership 
 (which he had had a right to, and had almost obtained), and must go 
 through a Civil Service exam., in itself a difficult matter for a lad fresh from 
 school, who had been coached on the various subjects to pass, and, if 
 successful, go behind all the numerous entrants on that class during a 
 period of over 16 years. Tliis would be a retrograde movement, seeing the 
 duty he would l>e called upon to perform would be precisely the same 
 as when he entered the Service in 1876 at a wage of 9s. per week. I may 
 state, gentlemen, that there was a lad who obtained p"omotion to the 2nd 
 class of sorters from the postman's class. He was appointed to the City, 
 and his duties for the lirst three weeks were merely to pick up the paper, 
 string, etc., from the floors. That will give you an idea of the work that 
 2nd class sorters might be expected to perform. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you suggest that as a typical case of the duties of 2nd 
 class sorters? 
 
 A. It was so in the case of this man. 
 Sir F. Mowatt: How long did this work go on? 
 
 A. About three weeks. The sequel to the cases I quoted just now, my 
 lord and gentlemen, is that whereas the lad who disregarded his instruc 
 tions in the earlier part of his career is now in receipt of a salary of 50s., 
 with an allowance of 5s., making a total of 55s. per week (with a chance 
 of ultimately reaching an inspectorship, £175, by £10, to £260). the post- 
 man's maximum pay is 34s., and 3s. three stripes, a total of 37s., or at
 
 Promotion. 1 33 
 
 the present time a difiference of 18s. on. the wages, and no prospects of 
 promotion. Yet the superiority in one case is no more than in the otlier, 
 seeing that the two officers only passed the one examination. I would like, 
 sirs, if it were possible, for you to call in at the Western District Office, 
 where I am employed, between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m. any evening and see for 
 yourselves the way letters are dealt with ; I venture to think you would 
 come away greatly enlightened a.s to the relative work of postmen and 
 sorters. A little illustration as to the course of a letter from tlae time of 
 posting to its delivery will })erhaps l)e out of place here. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : What do you mean by " the course of a letter from the 
 time of posting to its delivery?" 
 
 The Chairman : The witness evidently wishes to show the life of a letter 
 between the time of pastage and delivery. 
 
 Witness : In the case of a local letter it frequently occurs that during its 
 progi'ess through the Post Office it does not pass tlirough a sorter's hands 
 at all. Should the letter he going to a neighbouring district the letter 
 would probably pass througli two sorters' hands — it Ls only when the letter 
 goes into the provinces that it goes through a number of sorters' hands. 
 In the first place, the letter is collected by the postmen, brought to the 
 office, turned out on a facing table, there to be faced by postmen, stamped 
 ditto, primarily sorted by postmen, then the sorter checks the postmen's 
 sorting and bags the letters to the district for which the letter is intended 
 at the other end, a sorter opens the bag and signs the letter bill, and there 
 the letter passes out of the sorters' hands, for t'le postman stamps, primarily 
 sorts in walks, then into streets, and finally disposes of the letter by 
 delivering the same. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is a letter for another district in London? 
 
 A. Yes. That a postman may be promoted to a 2nd class sortersliip is 
 but a dubious benefit (with a few exceptions), and the examination to be 
 passed in order to obtain this advantage — if such it be — is made deterrent 
 by its requirements. That an anomalous state of things exists here is very 
 apparent. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What do you mean by the words " made deterrent by its 
 requirements ?" 
 
 A. By the examination postmen have to pass. 
 
 Q. Have you a list of the subjects in which they have to pass? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Read them out, please. 
 
 A. One subject is arithmetic, but first a man has to copy on a form 
 a passage in his best handwriting, and to do as much as he can in 30 
 minutes. He is told that it is desirable that the passage he is copying 
 should all Vie got on one page, but that he may, if necessary, use the other 
 page. Si^ecial importance is attached to the clear and good formation of 
 
 figures, and then he is examined as to returns of articles of export from • 
 
 during the year 1889. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You are reading an actual examination paper, are you not? 
 
 A. I was just reiiding the headings. 
 
 Q. Just give us the headings of the examination, please. 
 
 A. Arithmetic (the first four rules, simple and compound), English 
 composition (that is writing an essay), and geography generally. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And that is all ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And that is what you call a "deterrent examination" — the first four 
 rules of arithmetic, English composition, and geographj'. 
 
 A. It is, sir, for a man of years. If you take my own case, for instance ; 
 I am just on 35 years of age, and I think I should break down in an 
 examination of that sort. I do not think really and truly that I could do 
 it. The fact of the matter is. I have a child at school. She has been 
 educated at a board school, which they term a higlier grade school. She
 
 134 Alf. F. Harris, W.D.O. 
 
 is now in the 7th Standard, and is passing into the 7X Standard. I put 
 some of these subjects to her. With regard to the sums she could answer 
 about 6 out of 12. but when it came to the geography, althougli the child- 
 ren are tauglit by memory maps, it was impossible for her to answer the 
 questions. 
 
 Q. But any child in the 7th Standard ought to be able to do any sum 
 in the first four rules of arithmetic, ought she not? 
 
 A. She ought ; but in answer to that I may explain that if you look at 
 the school-books which tliey use, you will find on the back of them intima- 
 tions from teachers who undertake to coach pupils in these various subjects. 
 At the school which my child attends, after they have passed the 7tliX 
 Standard they are educated further, to enable them to pass the various Civil 
 Service Examinations. It is the same with regard to the boys ; they are 
 taught side by side with tlie girls, and the boys could not be expected 
 to do any better than the girls. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I understand your chief objection is not bo much that the 
 standard of examination is too high for a lad, but that a postman would 
 have forgotten some of the tilings he had learned at school, and would 
 consequently find it more difficult to go through his examination with credit? 
 Is that your point? Is it a question of age rather than of standard? 
 
 A. My point is that every postman has passed a Civil Service examina- 
 tion when he enters the Service, and I think that that is all that is ne- 
 oei-Hary for him. When he becomes a 2nd class sorter, he ought merely to 
 have to pass a sorting examination. 
 
 Mr. Smith : That is quite a different point. You may take the whole 
 examination and say it is t«o hard, but that would apply to the sorters as 
 well as postmen. Do you think the standard ought to be lowered for 
 sorters? It is the same examination for sorters as for postmen, is it not? 
 
 A. No ; I would not suggest that the standard be lowered. I should like to 
 point out that all officials in the Post Office, no matter what position they 
 have attained, have had to pa,ss only one Civil Service examination, 
 
 Mr. Smith : lliat is not an answer to my question. 
 
 Witness: You asked me whether I would have the standard lowered? 
 
 Mr. Smith : The reasons you first gave for your objection were based 
 chiefly on the ground of age. You suggest that the men might possibly 
 find it difficult to go through the examination, although they are fullv com- 
 petent. But when you give an illustration of the examination, ancf state 
 the sulijects, I understand you to argue that a boy or girl who passe<l 
 through the 7th Standard at a Board school could not, nevertheless, pass this 
 examination. Surely tliat would tend to show that the whole thing is too 
 hard for anybody? 
 
 Witness : May I point out that I myself passed an examination for a 
 sortership. I have never passed any examination to become a postman. 
 Presumably my appointment is still tliat of a sorter, although I am acting 
 as a postman. 
 
 Tlie Chau-man : You were appointed as a postman and sorter? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. What I would suggest is this, that postmen should 
 not he expected to pass this examination on appointment as 2nd class sorters, 
 but that, with I'egard to new entrants, or those coming from the street, 
 as the saying is, they should pass it as a matter of course. 
 
 The Chairman : What you would say is that, having passed an examina- 
 tion, and having become a postman, your experience as a postman qualifies 
 yuu to Ijecome a 2nd class sorter, provided that you show your competencj-? 
 
 A. Exactly so, sir. 
 
 Mr, Walpole : Tlien would it not l>e necessary to stiffen the examination 
 for postmen? 
 
 A. Exactly so, sir ; and we would suggest that too. 
 
 Q. At present the examination for postmen is in the simplest possible 
 form, is it not?
 
 Promotion. 135 
 
 A. Yes ; the examinatinn for postmen at the present time has been 
 lowered, and that has acted to the detriment of the men mIio are now in 
 the Service. 
 
 The Chairman : Practically you want to merge the classes of postmen 
 and sorters? 
 
 A. Exactly so. While I am on this point I should like to si^eak on the 
 question of the " dual certificated " men. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : We have had that. 
 
 Witness : I have here a case from DuV^lin. Now, Dublin is not repre- 
 sented at this Inquiry, and in the Dublin office there are a large number 
 of men who have passed this dual certificate. During the period between 
 1885 and 1887 a number of men were examined before the Civil Service 
 Commissioners and qualified for the dual position of " sorter and postman " ; 
 they were instructed to take up duty as postmen. After some time a 
 nuiiiber of them individually applied for a transfer to the S.O., and were 
 granted permission to enter on their Civil Service certificate ; the re- 
 mainder waited some time longer, confident that the Department would 
 transfer them as vacancies occurred, but not he<aring anythmg, decided 
 on making application, with the result that they were refused admit- 
 tance to S.O. by Mr. Arnold Morley, on the ground that the educational 
 stiindard had been raised, although they pointed out to him in their petition 
 that men already in the S.O. had qualified at the very same time, and on 
 the very same Civil Service certificate as themselves. This they feel to be 
 a great injustice, as having qualified for a position whose maximum is 
 56s. per week, besides other advantages, such as increased a.nnual holidays 
 and annual increment, they think it decidedly unfair t-o keep them on a class 
 wliose maximum is 33s. per week, less holidays, and les.s annual increment. 
 As showing that the Department recognised their claims to sorterships, they 
 in 1890 issued a notice to the effect " that all applicants for sortershii>s 
 from postmen will l>e required to undergo the Civil Service examination 
 now prescrilied for sorters, except those who have obtained the dual certi- 
 ficiitc of sorter and postman." (Vide. W. J. Landray's evidence before 
 liovd Tweedmouth's Inquiry.) Now I come to the case of the London dual 
 certificated men. 
 
 The Chairman: Are you one of these yourself? 
 
 A. I have l)een forced into the position of a postman. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You took a postman's place voluntarily, I suppose? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I was forced to take it. It meant my taking it or leaving 
 the Service. That was not the terms on which I entered the Service. The 
 iaducement I was offered was that I should get in time 45s. a week, and I 
 see no possible chance of doing so. There was a class of men who entered 
 the Service between 1879 and 1882 with a dual certificate as junior letter- 
 carriers and sorters at the wage of 14s. per week, who had to attend a 
 sorting school in their own time, and pass primary sorting three times, 
 as well as learning the routes and duties in connection with tlie Parcel Post. 
 Men who made applications for sorterships had to follow behind men as 
 much as ten years their juniors, and passed no examination in the E.O.D.O. 
 and other branches. Those men who started the Parcel Post at the E.G. 
 Office were informed by the overseer (Mr. Blake) from the chief of the 
 Department that in return for their endeavours, if the appointments were 
 placed on the established statf as sorters, they should be the first to receive 
 that appointment, as only those men who had not received their appoint- 
 ments as 1st class letter-carriers were drafted into that service. This 
 promise was confirmed in the presence of the late Right Hon. H. Fawcett 
 by Mr. Jeffreys, the then controller, and Mr. Hunter, and if that promise 
 had been fulfilled they would now be performing the duties of 1st class 
 sorters at the Parcel Post Depot, and other branches, to which these men 
 were afterwards drafted. The advantage of men joining the Service as 2nd 
 class sorters is that they are placed on their seniority without passing
 
 136 Alf. F. Harris, W.D.O. 
 
 any sorting examination, but a letter-carrier, although having passed all 
 through the examinations, has to pass again for the 2nd class sorterships. 
 known as a Departmental examination. At present at the Parcel Post 
 Depot, Mount Pleasant, there are men Avho are four years junior to tlie 
 men who started the Parcel Post in 1883, and came as auxiliary postmen, 
 working the duties that were promised to the men who first worked the 
 duties in that branch. Tlie abolition of this sort of friction is a desideratum. 
 It might be suggested that 1st class sorterships should be within reach of the 
 senior men of the postmen's class equally with those who are of the 2nd 
 class sorters, thus making the t«o branches equal in aim and status. In 
 a probationary stage, when a postman has been performing the duties of 
 one in a higher grade, such jjerformance of such higher duties should 
 receive corresponding increase of pay. Postmen have performed superior 
 duties without this increase. In common with other branches of the 
 . Service, we deprecate the system of devolution. In 1865, in the Official 
 Circular dated March 22nd, and signed by the tlien controller (Mr. W. 
 Bokenham) we find the following: — "All have a fair chance of rising to the 
 several classes above them, the entire establishment lieing recruited from the 
 supplementary class." Of tliis class there were 100 men termed supple- 
 nieitary letter-carriers. This promise was faithfully carried out on the 
 Department, for to-day most of the inspectors, supervisors, and overseers 
 were postmen at or alxtut that time. On the institution of the Parcel Post 
 the wliole of the initial work was done by letter-carriers ; these men were 
 promised appointments, but this promise was not carried into effect, out- 
 siders and sorters taking these appointments, and the letter-carriers being 
 drafted. ba<;k to their original duties without any recognition. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When you sa.y you were promised appointments, what 
 \fcre you promised appointments as? 
 
 A. We were promised appointments as sorters, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Have you any evidence of that? 
 
 A. Certainly, eir. I wish to put in tliis letter : — 
 
 E.C.D.O., September 27th. 1895. 
 
 To the COXTROLLER, 
 
 Sir, — In answer to your inquirj- as to who gave itie promise in 
 qi.estion, I beg to submit that Avhen we were selected to learn the route.s 
 in connection with pircel duty, under Mr. Blake and Mr. Chambcsrlin, we 
 vt^re informed l)y the former from the chief of the Department that we 
 sliould forget all about the letter post, as our appointments would be in the 
 I'ai-cel Post if that department was placed on the established stiiii'. a.s only 
 those men who had not received tlieir appointments as lett-er-carriers were 
 selected for duty in that department. I also beg to refer you to Mr. 
 Hunter and Mr. Blake, who were present with the lat« Right Hon. H. 
 Fawcett and Mr. Jeffreys, the then controller, when all the otficers of the 
 Paicel Post were assembled and informed by them that we were the men 
 appointed to work that department, and its progress was ours in that 
 service. Had their promise been fulfilled we should be performing the duties 
 of 1st class sorters. 
 
 On beluilf of the Petitioners, 
 I am, Sir, 
 
 Your obedient Servant, 
 
 R. W. Nkale, Postman, E.C. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What rank did Mr. Blake" hold in the Service wlien he 
 gave this alleged promi.se? 
 
 A. Well, sir, he was an overseer at that time, ami he has since l>een 
 tiar.sferred to l>e chief insi)ect(3r at Mount Pleasant.
 
 Promotion. 137 
 
 Q. Do you think your overseer had any right to give a promise of that 
 kind? Do you attach any importance to a promise so given? 
 
 A. I do not know that ; but you must remember that the overseer 
 was our immediate superior officer. 
 
 Q. Who was Mr. Hunter, the other gentleman wlio gave the promise? 
 
 A. I am informed tliat he intrmluced the Parcel Post under the Fawcett 
 sclicme. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that he denies any knowledge of this interview ? 
 
 A. The men sent this letter in, and they have received no reply. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean that this letter has been sent to the De- 
 partment? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you look upon the Parcel Post Service as a better one 
 than the letter branch? 
 
 A. Oh, no, sir ; but they are part and parcel of the office work. But what 
 we do say is that these men who have chiefly brought about the Parcel 
 Post were sent to work these duties, and, in fact, tiuglit the 2nd class 
 soiters tlieir duty; they went into the office, they brought the thing 
 about in its initial stcige, and they consider that as a promise was made to 
 them it should have been carried out. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I understand you to say that these men were promised 
 distinct advancement for working the Parcel Post? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Arid I think that tlie promise on which you rely is an alleged promise 
 by an overseer? That, as far as I undersfcind it, is your case? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What was the promise? 
 
 A. They were promised that they should be made sorters. These men 
 urge in support of their claim that they are dual certificatex^l men. 
 
 Sfr. Walpole: Has that anything to do with the promise? That is 
 another tiling altogether. 
 
 A. No, sir ; these men think it adds to the ol)!igation to appoint them. 
 
 The Chaii-man : Were all these men taken to work the Parcel Post in its 
 initial stage, as you mentioned just now? 
 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But at that time, when they were taken to initiate the 
 Parcel Post, and when the alleged promise was given, there were no sorters 
 employed in jmrcel work, were there? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And tliere was no intention of employing them, was there? 
 
 A. I do not know, sir ; but even if that were so, when the intention 
 to employ sorters was carried out, the men who held dual certificates thought 
 that as they were perfectly competent to perform the duties, and as they 
 were promised the appointment to sorters, they ought to have received it. 
 Undoubtedly the promise was made in goo<l faith. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I do not understand you. When these men went to the 
 Parcel Post were there no sorters there? 
 
 A. No, sir ; there were no sorters there. 
 
 Q. And I imderstand you to say that the promise was that thej' should 
 remain in the department and become sorters ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But if you have no sorters in the department, how then could they 
 ren:ain and become sorters ? 
 
 A. They held dual certificates. They could work either as postmen or 
 soiters, and they were waiting for appointments to sorterships. 
 
 Q. Do I rightly understand you that these men think when they were 
 set to Parcel Post work they were promised that they should be made 
 sorters, although there were no sorterships in the Parcel Post to which 
 they could have been appointed?
 
 138 Alf. F. Hauris, W.D.O. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : You also wish to insist upon the fact that the particular 
 men chosen for this duty were dual certificated men, and therefore had more 
 of the sorter element attaching to tliem than the ordinary postman? 
 
 A. Exacth/ so. 
 
 aVIr. Walpole : Are you quite certain that all the men chosen were dual 
 certificated men? 
 
 A. I am informed so, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : How long were they kept at the work before sorters 
 were introduced? 
 
 A. I should think twelve months or two years, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did the men come from who initiated the Parcel Post? 
 
 A. The Paddington Deix)t. They were there nearly eight months. They 
 had a sort of idea that they were tried on these duties in order to test 
 tlieir fitness, and after they had performed them for a long period they 
 were sent back. 
 
 The Cliairman : Do you know why the change was made ? Was it the 
 case that the men were found not to be thoroughly competent to do the 
 work ? 
 
 A. Oh,. no, sir; these men must have been comi>etent to do the work, or 
 they would not have been kept at it. 
 
 The Chairman : They were apparently not kept at it. 
 
 A. I mean for so loag a time. These men were promised this thing 
 in good faith, but the promise was not fulfilled, and they were kept waiting 
 for appointments as 2nd class sorters. 
 
 The Chairman : I am afraid you have broken down a little. It api)ears 
 to me that you have not very clearly made out the promise. I quite under- 
 stand you have so far established your case that a number of men were 
 taken from the letter side of the Postal Service for the purpose of carrying 
 out the Parcel Post service, and that the whole charge of t3iat service 
 was in their hands for a considerable number of months? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and then when naturally they might have been kept on at 
 that particular service, they were sent back, and sorters were brought in 
 to do the work. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you liave made that out pretty clearly, but I do 
 not think you have made out a clear and definite promise to these men 
 that they should become sorters. They may have thought there was an 
 implied understanding from the fact that they were kept at the v/ork, but 
 I do not think j'ou luxve shown any strong proof that they were promised 
 they should Vjecome sorters. 
 
 A. I do not think there was any necessity for the promise ; they were 
 entitled to it by right. 
 
 Q. That, I think, is a matter you may fairly put forward in your evi- 
 dence, but you founded your statement upon a definite promise, which I 
 do not think you have shown us was made. I nuist say that. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As to the fairness, and as to ^hat they might have ex- 
 pected, I presume that wlien the Parcel Post was establislied it was neces- 
 sary for the Department to get up a "scratch team" for the' new work. I 
 am not using that term offensively. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And because they swept together a number of men who seemed likely 
 to be qualified for the work, surely you do not hold that the Department 
 was bound in honour to keep those men at tliat work for all time? 
 
 A. Well, sir, these men were dual certificated, and should have taken 
 pi'ecedence. 
 
 Q. I have no doubt the men you represent were dual certificated, but 
 you must give me leave to doubt whether all the men put to that service 
 were so. 
 
 The Chairman : Were none of these men kept on?
 
 Promotion. 139 
 
 A. There is nothing here to indicate that any were. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me whether tihe whole of these men so taken were Sent 
 back again to their letter work, or what proportion Were kept on? 
 
 A. I cannot tell you, sir. As a further illustration of the way promo- 
 tions are dealt out, Mr. F. A. Gill, a postman, in 1892 applied for a 
 clerkship, and no notice was taken of his application. In Feb., 1893, he 
 successfully passed the sorting examination, obtaining the 18th place 
 out of lOO" vacancies, and shortly after (in 1895) he applied for the clerkship 
 again. This time his application was granted, and he entered a com- 
 petitive examination for the same and passed, he being transferred to the 
 controller's office. 
 Mr. Walpole : Do vou mean clerkship or sortership? 
 
 A. Clerkship. The point is this, Mr. Gill could equally have passed 
 for a clerkship as a sorter, yet as a postman he was not allowed the 
 privilege. Here is distinctly a class grievance. We consider that, providing 
 a postman can pass the examination, no barrier should be put in his, the 
 postman's way. This class distinction is an anomaly that wants serious 
 attention. You, sir (Mr. Walpole), I have to thank for the admission, 
 made on Dec. 18th, I think, that there are no major or minor establish- 
 ments, and hope in future that when a postman seeks to enter a competition 
 with others, no matter his age or service so long as he is on the estab- 
 lisliment, he shall be permitted to compete. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : These are limited competitions, are they not, for which 
 a man must be nominated by his superior officer? 
 A. That is for clerkshipjs. 
 Q. Yes ; clerkships. 
 
 A. I do not know, sir. All we do know is that a notice is put up to the 
 efl'ect that " applications are invited." 
 
 Q. But it would be subject to a recommendation from a superior officer, 
 would it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. But I am pleading for the postmen who are kept out of 
 tliem. 
 
 Q. I em not saying that postmen ought not to be recommended, but 
 euiely there ouglit to be some recommendation on the ground of good 
 ooi'duct and efficiency? 
 
 A. Quite so, sir ; and postmen, I should tliink, would be able to stand that. 
 Mr. Walpole : Quite so. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I want to get this a little clearer. Do you mean to say 
 that under no circumstances is a postman allowed to compete for a clerkship? 
 A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. Is tihat so? Not even if he gets a recommendation? 
 A. Yes. Whatever mialifications he may possess, he camiot get into tliL-^ 
 limited comjwtition. He ciin only compete in the outside market — in the 
 open market. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you got any instance of a postman having been 
 made a clerk? 
 
 A. No, sir. We only know that they have repeatedly applied for these 
 clerkships, and there is no instiince of a postman ever getting one. 
 The Chairman : You said they had never been allowed to compete. 
 Mr. Smith : Excepting in open competition. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am informed that the practice of the controller is to ask 
 Postmasters to nominate the most suitable men in their offices, and that 
 no restrictions are imposed as to whether they are postmen or sorters. That 
 is the rule. 
 
 Witness : All I can say is that postmen are never recommended. I do 
 not know whether it is thought they are not competent. I have another 
 illustration here from a suburban office. E. G. Smith entered the Post Office 
 as telegraph messenger on the 28th January, 1877 ; he was appointed aS 
 assistant or 2nd class letter-carrier on the IStli August, 1878, and as a
 
 140 Alf. F. Harris, W.D.O. 
 
 Suburban letter-carrier on the 15th November, 1881. As a result of ail 
 application made by liim for promotion on the 9tli January, 1893, he was 
 sent on trial to Wandsworth, and there acted as head postman. From there 
 he went to Mortlake on the 14th July, remaining there till the 29bh of the 
 same month. On the 8th September, 1893, he was sent to Barnes, where 
 he remained till October 8th, when he was told to return to Putney and 
 take up his own postman's duties. Since then he has been called upon from 
 time to time to do head postmen's duties Avhile head postmen are away 
 on holiday. I have another case: — J. P. Worth has been working head 
 postman's duty on and off for the last nine years. The last time he did 
 it for a period of three years, and each vacancy has been filled up by men 
 from the District Office. He has two stripes, and is a thoroughly 
 capable man, who understands every part of his duties. This is at New 
 Cross. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Yon say he has bsen unfairly passed over ? 
 
 A. Yes, I should think so. He has been working on these duties for 
 nme years, and surely he is competent by this time to i)erform them. I 
 liave an illustration from my own office as to the way vacancies are filled 
 up. Quite recently an official intimation that clerkships were vacant was 
 placed on the laotice l>oard in the offices. A considerable number of post- 
 men, among other officers, applied for the position, but were doomed to 
 disappointment, for in every instance their applications were ignored. 
 Six years ago a lobby officer's position was vacant in the W.D.O. This 
 position was not notified to the postmen (nor are any, as far as that is 
 concerned, with the exception of 2nd class sorters). This was offered to 
 and accepted by quite a junior man, and, although a man many years 
 senior to the recipient applie<l, his application for the position was iiot 
 noticed. I may st:ite there were over 50 men between the senior who 
 applied and tlie man who obtained the position. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You say a senior man applied ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; senior men did apply. This shows it was a case of distinct 
 favouritism. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I cannot see that. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Will you give me the name of the man? I Avill look into it. 
 
 Witness : The name of the man who applied for the position was W. 
 Coslett ; he is the senior man. I think he has l)een in the Service nearly 
 35 or 36 yeivrs. 
 
 Q. What was the name of the man who got it? 
 
 A. Bruton, sir ; he has been appointed about five or six years. 
 
 Q. Tlien this is a case five or six years old? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The senior man has never l)een offered an appointment. 
 I may state that for over five years in the Western District Office there has 
 not been an o])ening for postmen at all. All the promotions have gone to 
 the sorting staff. 
 
 My Lord and Gentlemen. — The foregoing st;itements are the result and 
 outcome of careful tliought and documentary research. Tlie object aimed 
 at has been t« make clear that the grievances to which your ritt<'ntion has 
 been called are real ones, and call for remedial measures. Our one desire 
 is to work in a spirit of unanimity with the slightest ]>ossible amount of 
 friction. You will observe that special mention is made of the difficulty 
 existing between ourselves and that branch of tlie Service — 2nd class sorter.s. 
 We claim equality witji tlie latter staff, also an equal ])roj)ortion of a])point- 
 ments, and that appointments to the higher grades be open to us in equal 
 ratio. I may also add that we would further recommend amalg-amated 
 seniority lists, the same as in the case of 2nd class sorters in the Metro- 
 polit<in District. 
 
 >rr. Smith: When you say "ojien to all in equal ratio," you mean "com- 
 petent in equal ratio." I suj)pose? 
 
 A. Yes ; I used the wrong wonl perhaps. This would go ti> still a large
 
 Promotion. 
 
 141 
 
 and ever-iucreasing feeling of discontent tliat exists. Without fnrtlier 
 troubling you, my lord and gentlemen, and feeling that our rase will be 
 justly and liberally dealt with, on behalf of the London postmen I thank 
 yo'i for your courteous attention. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Wliat do you mean by amalgamated seniority lists? 
 
 A. Amalgamated seniority lists for the whole of the London postmen, 
 including the City postmen. 
 
 Q. Do you mean irrespective of the zones? You know that in London 
 postmen are paid on different scales according to different zones? 
 
 A. Exaetly so. 
 
 Q. And you would take no account of that? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I would take the man as he comes into the Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: I only wanted to know what you me<m? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The witness then witlidrew, having been under examination over an lionr.
 
 fi. SYMES, E.C.D.O. 
 
 Aholition of Classification. 
 Floating Stafp. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, March 2, 1896. 
 
 Mr. H. Symes, E.C.D.O., examined: — 
 
 llie Chairman: Are you a i)osbmaii in London? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. In wliat jmrt? 
 
 A. The E.G. District. 
 
 Q. Are you at your maximum? 
 
 A. No, iny lord ; I have 24s. , with a stripe. I have seven years' service. 
 
 Q. Are you speaking for the junior men? 
 
 A. I am speaking from the point of view of the men who suffered by the 
 abolition of class ; they were deprived of the appointments they should have 
 recei\"ed. 
 
 Q. Are you going in favour of the re-introduction of classification? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; I will deal with that presently. You will see by my 
 opening statement what my complaint is. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What are you yourself? 
 
 A. I am an estaV>lished postman. 
 
 The Chairman : With seven years' service ? 
 
 A. It is 6i years' service; I ma/de a misitake. I joined on August 12th, 
 1889. 
 
 ABOLITION OF CLASSIFICATION. 
 
 The case which I have to submit to your consideration arises from the re- 
 vision scheme which came into operation on August 2nd, 1891, under the 
 regime of the late Mr. Cecil Raikes. Prior to that idate the postmen of 
 London were divided into two classes, resj^ectively termed the 1st and 2nl 
 classes. By a clause of the Raikes' Scheme, however, this system of classifi- 
 cation was aVjolished, the two classes were amalgamated, and a division 
 made into zones, the said zones taJjing as their basis the respective districts 
 in which the men wei-e stationed V)eing inti-oduced in its steiid. In every district 
 of London a large section of the men consider that a serious injury was 
 inflictetl upon them by the manner in which this abolition was carried out, 
 and I have, in consequence, being one of them, been deputed to lay 
 their case before you. Before proceeding to do so, however, I desire to 
 point out that the fact that exception is taken to the manner in which, in 
 a specified instance, a principle is carried out, does not necessarily imply 
 any disapproval of the principle in itself, a,nrl tliat tlie men whom I repre- 
 sent do not object to the abolition of any arbitrary class distinctions which 
 may exist between men whose duties are of a similar or of an identical 
 nature. Quite the contrarj'' : they regard any such abolition, when properly 
 carried out, as a dasirable reform. But they contend, and I will presently 
 endeavour to demonstrate to you the justice of their contention, that the 
 manner in which the Department, by the scheme of 1891, feebly attempted 
 to reduce this principle to practice, involved in the process the infliction of 
 a serious and lasting injustice upon them, the violation of official rule and 
 precedent, and the creation of a tendency — in addition to those previously 
 existing — towards disorganisation in the postal service, as a natural conse- 
 quence of giving just and reasonable grounds for discontent to a section of
 
 Abolition of Classification. 143 
 
 its employees. Having made this prefatory statement in order, at the out- 
 set, to render our position clear, and to obviate the x>ossibility of giving 
 rise to any misunderstanding concerning our attitude towards tha subject of 
 class abolition in genera^, I proceed to lay down, as a definite premise, the 
 principle that it is a guiding rule of official procedure that — " No person or 
 persons entering the postal service under stated conditions as to jmy, pro- 
 motion, etc., shall, at any period, subsequent to that entry, have those con- 
 ditions altered in such a manner as to deprive them of any of the advantages 
 which they would have received by their original agi'eement witli tlie De- 
 partment being fully carried out." 
 
 The Chairman : What is that quotation from ? 
 
 A. I have not quoted anything. I ajin going by precedent, 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then it is jiour own statement ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but it is borne out by many other statements, 
 
 Q. I am not disputing it. 
 
 A. Oh, you do not dispute it, then? 
 
 The Chairman : In the coTjy you have given me of your statement you 
 have placed these words 'in inverted commas, and therefore I thought it 
 was a quotation? 
 
 A. No ; it is not a quotation. The abolition of classification involves many 
 intricate matters which it is difficult for outsiders to understand. It is 
 hardly necessary for me to dilate upon the obvious necessity! for the adop- 
 tion of such a principle by a great public department such as the Post Office. 
 Moreover, it has for years past been tacitly accepted in written and verbal 
 statements by successive chiefs of the Department, as will, for instance, 
 be sufficiently demonstrated by a retrospective examination of the evidence 
 which has already been placed before the Committee by our present chiefs, 
 in which evidence it Tvill be perceived that they have not even attempted 
 to refute this principle, but have always contented themselves with the en- 
 deavour to prove that it has not, in any specific case with which they were 
 dealing, been violated. The principle of continuance of primary advantages 
 being, I think, firmly established, the question which naturally presents 
 itself on endeavouring to apply this principle to the case of those who com- 
 plain of the manner in which classification was abolished in 1891 is. " Under 
 what conditions did they enter the postal service'?" These conditions, in so 
 far as they concern the case in question, may be roughly divided into three, 
 viz. : — The muaima — In this respect the men concerned form two classes, the 
 first entering the Service between 1887 and November 9th, 1889, and having 
 a minimum of 16s. weekly, whilst the second, entering the Service between 
 November 9th, 1889, and August 2nd, 1891, received a minimum of 18s. 
 In all other respects, however, their conditions of service were identical, 
 the second being " Tliat they should rise from their respective minima by 
 annual increments of Is. per week until vacancies in the 1st cla^s occurring, 
 they should fill those vacancies at a minimum wage of 24s. weekly." The 
 third condition was " That they sliould, having received their 1st class 
 appointments, rise by increments of Is. weekly (the first increment being 
 biennial, the rest annual) until they reach their respective maxima." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As the Department has not disputed the principle is it 
 worth while to continue this? 
 
 A. As the principle is accepted I will not. Now, the raison d'etre of such 
 a system of classification as that laid down by these conditions must natur- 
 ally, in the first place, have been a performance of duties of a difterent 
 character, those of the first being considered superior to those performed by 
 the second class. As a matter of fact, I find it was originally intendel 
 that the duties of the 2nd class men, then termed assistants, should be con- 
 fined to collections, it being aipparently considered that the responsible and 
 arduous duties of delivery constituted work of a distinctly higher character, 
 demanding higher remuneration. After a time, however, the growth of the 
 public business seems to have necessitated a further division of walks, and 
 these assistants were introduced among the letter-carriers, carrying out
 
 144 H. SvMEs, E.C.D.O. 
 
 (although in a sense different to that in which it was first applied) the signi- 
 fication of their title, by taK'ing a portion of two or more walks. This pro- 
 cess went on in a greatly increiused degree, until the majority of these assist- 
 ants gradually fell into much the same position as the ordinary letter-carrier, 
 although they did not receive a corresponding increase of pay in return for 
 the performance of these superior duties, which had primarily been the 
 raison d'etre of a superior class. Although, however, the 2nd class evolved 
 in this species of laissez faire manner into a kind of probationary class, 
 looking forward to the period when they would be receiving the higher wage 
 of the 1st class as a recom{>ense, at least in part, for their then inadequate 
 remuneration for tlie performance of 1st class duties, a certain numerical 
 ratio was, in spite of their anomalous constituent elements, always preserved 
 between the two classes, and, whenever there was anj' delay in the issue of 
 1st class appointments, that delay was accompanied by, and due to, a general 
 insufficienc}^ of staff. This cursory examination into the evolution of the 
 system of classification leads us to the conclusion that the creation of 1st 
 class appointments was dependent, in the preservation of the numerical ratio 
 between the classes of which I have spoken, upon the development of the 
 Service, and the accompanving increase of staff. To come now to the period 
 between 1887 and August 2nd, 1891, although, in the first half of this period, 
 appointments were sometimes delayed for some considerable time, owing to 
 the fact that the staff had not been increased in proportion with the work, 
 during the second half appointments were granted after a period of service 
 almost as .short as those which ha^d previously — as I will presently demon- 
 strate — been the rule instead of the exception ; so 'that some of us were 
 brouglit, by the natural evolution of the system, to such a position that 
 we should, at some time during the year 1891, have received our 1st class 
 appointments, with a consequent rise to 24s. per week. As an example of 
 what that meant to us all, I will remark, e>i passant, that my own wages 
 during the first ten months of tliat year were 19s. per week. In order to 
 show by how small a turn of wliat might be termed the oflBcial " wheel of 
 misfortune " some amongst us lost these expected appointments, and to 
 demonstrate how suddenly the decision to abolish classification was arrived 
 at, I should like to ask whether or no a paper was forwarded in May, 1891, 
 in response to a Treasurj- minute authorising the creation of 65 appointments, 
 containing a list of that number of names of men who were recommended 
 by the responsible officials as fit recipients of those appointments? If so, 
 whether that list has been preserved, and also whether it is not a fact that 
 my naone appeared upon that list amongst others, and that it was subse- 
 quently removed in order to make way for others whom it had originally 
 been intended to punish by a temporary suspension of their appointments, 
 which appointments the responsible officials, when it was determined to 
 abandon the system of classification, did not care to entirely deprive them 
 of, and therefore included their navies in the list of those qualified, to the 
 exclusion of others, such as myself, to whom they (the ofiBcials), being 
 enamoured of Departmental economy, did not see fit to extend the same 
 measure of justice? 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt. The maxima were 32s. and 30s., were they not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, at that period. I may point out that the increase of the 
 maxinmra did not date from this ; it occurred in the following May, and 
 had nothing to do with it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Tlie maximum at that time in the London town district 
 was 32s. , and in th^ provincial town districts 30s. ? 
 
 A. Quite right. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Were any passed over at the maximum ? 
 
 A. I beg your pardon ; I do not understand. 
 
 Q. Were any passed over who were at the maximum of the 2nd class? 
 
 A. Yeg ; when the increment becomes due men are passed over for bad 
 character. To resume : Some amongst us were then, just prior to August
 
 Abolition of Classification. 145 
 
 2nd, 1891, anxiously, yet confidently, expecting our appointments, never 
 
 dreaming but that, as we had properly performed our duties, the Department 
 would honourably adliere to its engagements. But the ways of the Depart- 
 ment are past finding out, and often disappoint the most reasonable expecta- 
 tions. The Departmental coup d'etat was sprung upon us, and in all parts 
 of London men who, like myself, were expecting almost immediate appoint- 
 ments, i.e., a rise from 19s. or 20s. per week to 24s., as well as those who 
 followed them, the whole of whom, as the development of the staff has since 
 that time sufficiently shown, would have received similar appointments at 
 some time within the two years following that period, found that prospect 
 suddenly snatched from( them, and themselves left without hope of ever 
 being able, unless they now receive through your recommendations the re- 
 ward of patient endurance of injustice, to retrieve their lost position. I 
 thought I would state this, as it proves how utterly it was outside the sys- 
 tem that we should sufi'er as we did. Although there had been no com- 
 munication between the various districts, petitions were forwarded from all 
 parts of London, but it would be impossible for me to deal with them all, 
 and therefore mj'^ remarks will be chiefly confined to those efforts to obtain 
 redress which emanated from my own district, ,the E.G., because, coming 
 as they did, under my immediate notice, I am better acquainted with their 
 details. But what is to be said concerning the E.G. applies in nearly every 
 particular to the whole of London. 
 
 Sir F. Mo watt : You have not stated what the hardship is yet? 
 
 A. I thought that could be seen. I have laid down here the principle for 
 continua.nce of primary advantages in conditions of service. We contend 
 that in consequence of the manner in which classification was abolished, and 
 by reason of the introduction of a new scale, the men already in should have 
 been continued on the old scale until they had received all the advantages 
 they had a right to expect. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : What advantages have they lost ? 
 
 A. They lost 5s. a week, which would have been a great advantage to 
 them ; I will deal with that later on. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : May I ask you this? We have hatl an application, I dare 
 say you know — — 
 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You had better wait until you liear what I have to say. 
 We have had an application from the sorting clerks throughout the country 
 for the abolition of classification. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And, in my opinion, undoubtedly the abolition of classification will be 
 a serious injury to some of the 2nd class sorting clerks. Do you think the 
 Department is precluded from conceding the wish of the sorting clerks 
 generally to abolish classification becau.se it would undoubtedly injure many 
 of the 2nd class sorting clerks? 
 
 A. Not in the least : I think you should take into consideration the prin- 
 ciples laid dovv-n by the Treasury in regard to this. When the Department 
 abolished classification our men asked for an increased increment as com- 
 pensation. But the abolition of class has been carrietl out, and we have not 
 had the increa^sed increment, but we have actually lost money through the 
 abolition of class. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: But the ultimate advantage was to increase your maximum? 
 
 A. I will deal with that presently. I will show what it meant. 
 
 Q. But your maximum was increased? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, but not very considerably. But that was on general grounds. 
 At the same time other branches of the Service received still greater con- 
 cessions. Surely you ought not to contend for one moment that this con- 
 cession granted to the large body on general grounds was a particular con- 
 ces.sion in our case to compensate us for the loss we had to sustain by the 
 abolition of classification?
 
 146 H. Symks, E.C.D.O. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am not conteading anything ; I only want to bring out 
 
 the facts. 
 
 A. I quite agree with your facts, bub they may be put in another liglit. 
 It all deijends in the way you put them. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Your maximum was raised by 2s. ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but it would take nine years to get it. It was no compensation 
 for us. On April 4tli, 1892, a meeting of the men affected in the ll.C Dis- 
 trict was held, at which meeting three delegates were elected for the purpose 
 of laying the case before the Controller. The.''e "three drew up, and on April 
 7th forwarded a written request for an interview with the Controller, which 
 request I will now, with your permission, read to you. 
 
 (Copy.) 
 
 E.C.D.O. , April 7th, 1892. 
 To the Controller, 
 
 Sir, — At the meetmg of the E.G. postmen, who suffer by the abolition of 
 classification, held on Slonday, April the 4th, the following resolution was 
 passed : — ■ 
 
 " That this meeting respectfully asks the Controller if he wUl be good 
 enough to receive a' deputation of three, to lay our case before him?" 
 
 We, the undersigned, were duly elected by the meeting, and respectfully 
 ask that you will grant us the favour of an interview, that we may discuss 
 the following points with you : — 
 
 Firstly — That we are under the impression that it is an official principle 
 " That no individual should suffea- by the introduction of a new scale of pro- 
 motion or wages." 
 
 Secondly — We are prepared to show that we do, and .shall suffer material 
 pecuniary loss by the abolition of class, amounting in some cases to about 
 £100 by the time the masinmm is reached. (It is more than that in some 
 instances.) 
 
 Thirdly — We would earnestly point out for your kind consideration that, 
 before the last revision, although we were receiving inadequate wages for our 
 needs, v/e were buoyed up by the prospect of obtaining a 1st cla,ss appoint- 
 ment and consequent rise to 24s. per week. In conclu.sion, Ijelieving you have 
 the interests of the men under your charge at heart, and if we fully convince 
 you of the existence of a real grievance, we feel sure we shall gain your 
 valuable recommendation towards establishing a better condition of things. 
 We are, Sir, 
 
 Your obedient Servants, 
 
 W. Johnson, 
 C. Clark, 
 H. Symes, 
 (Postmen). 
 
 Xow, considering the nature of this application, it might have been 
 expected that the Controller, seeing a Large number of men under his charge 
 so thoroughly convinced that they are suffering from an injustice, would 
 have gladly seized the opportunity of meeting their delegates, thereby either 
 satisfj'ing himself that their comj)laints were unfounded, with the possibility 
 of proving it to the men, or, on the other hand, discovering Wie real nature 
 and extent of their grievances, an:l, in the interest of the Service generally, 
 removing the causes. But it seems that the representatives of the Depart- 
 ment, their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding .(and we must 
 judge them, as we would others, by their actions instead of by their words), 
 have determined, asia principle regulatmg their attitude in such cases, never 
 to give a| moment's careful consideration to the alleged grievances of their 
 sul)ordinates, if the position of those subordinates be such as to render pos- 
 sible 'the assumption of a dignified appearance of accurately estimating the 
 whole situation at a glance, without the trouble of inquiry. Tliey find this 
 attitude .so much easier thaai the careful consideration of facts and argu-
 
 Abolition of^Ciassification. I4f 
 
 monts, which might render invalid some of the conclusions to which they 
 haxi arrived, as a consequence of comfortably viewing the alleged causes of 
 these grievances through the sbaaned glass sj^ectacles of bureau calculation. 
 
 The Chairman : I am afraid that the Inquiry now sitting rather upsets 
 that contention. i 
 
 A. This Inquiry was granted in consequence of the refusal of the officials 
 of the Department to hear our complaint. 
 
 Q. This is an Inquiry by the Department itself? 
 
 A. At the request of Parliament. I am afraid we should not have got it 
 without. I do not want to press this furtlier and run the risk of rumiing 
 counter to the officials. There are w;i<ys of punishing men unknown to you, 
 mj^ lord. This view of the matter seems to afi'ord the only adequate ex- 
 planation of the Controller's refusal to hear us, and to discuss the point we 
 had advanced. Naturally, the men could not rest satisfied with this result, 
 and a memorial was drawn up, duly signed by the men and handed to the 
 superintendent, together with a written request to forward it to the Post- 
 master-General, on September 14th, 1892. Some time afterwards what was 
 termed a reply to their petition was received by the men, which reply, 
 strange to say, bore the date of September 15th, the day after that on which 
 the memorial had been placed in the hands of the superintendent. It seems 
 to me somewhat extraordinary, considering the habitual, and perhaps neces- 
 sary, slowness of official procedure, and also the fact that the memorial would 
 have to be read and reported upon by severail persons before it could reach 
 the Postmaster- General, that, in the space of 24 hours it could have gone 
 through the usual routine and have been received, carefully considered, and 
 replied to by him. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you got the reply ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have it. I will read it presently. 
 
 Q. Are you sure of the date of the memorial? 
 
 A. Yes, it was September 14, 1892. 
 
 Q. I have a petition before me dated 19th September. 
 
 Witness : The 19th ! Thatr makes it still more remarkable. 
 
 Q. Is this not a reply to sometliing else? 
 
 A. If the petition is dated the 19th I aan five days better off than I thought 
 I was. 
 
 Q. On the contrary, it shows that this reply cannot possibly refer to your 
 petition. 
 
 A. It shows that our memorial was never considered. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Is that so? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so; they replied to our arguments before they knew what 
 we Imd got to say. 
 
 Q. Wlien you say you sent in a petition on tli© 14th, a^d got an answer 
 24 hours later, do you know i whether any other jxitition had been sent in 
 prior, and that the answer therefore miglit have not applied to yours? 
 
 A. It was handed to us some months later — this ansAver to the petition. 
 
 Q. Then you did not get it within 24 hours? 
 
 A. I am only mentioning the date it bore. 
 
 Q. You did not get an ajnswer until some months after the petition had 
 been sent in? 
 
 A. Certainly not. 
 
 Mr. Smith. It was postetl up, you say? 
 
 A. Yes ; posted up. 
 
 Q. Do you say it was posted up before your petition went in? 
 
 A. No ; I beg your pardon, I had better read that part agam. " Some 
 time afterwards what wae termed a reply to their petition was received by 
 the men, which reply, strange to say, bore the date of September 15, the 
 day after that on which the memorial had been placed in the hands of the 
 superintendent. " 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then you got the ans^ver some time after the petition 
 was sent in?
 
 148 H. Symes, E C.D.O, 
 
 1 
 
 A. I do not wish to convey the impression that the reply was posted up 
 on the 15th ; I merely stated that it bore that date. You will note I used the 
 words " Some time afterwards." The petition was practically a repetition 
 of the former paper. However, in order that you may be able to jiidge how 
 far the character of the official notice indicates a careful consideration of our 
 case, I will, with your permission, read both the memorial and the notice 
 to you. 
 
 (Copy.) 
 To the Right Honourable Arxold Morlet, M.P., 
 
 Her Majesty's Postmaster-General. 
 The petition of tlie town postmen employed in the Eastern Central District 
 Office, in London (being tliose who entered the Service before the revision 
 of August, 1891, and have not received 1st class appointments) sheweth as 
 follows : — 
 
 That your petitioners are under the impression that it is an ofBcial prin- 
 ciple " That no individual or class shall suffer by the introduction of any 
 new scale of promotion or wages." Therefore, they are grievously disap- 
 pointed at the revision of August, 1891, which abolished classification with- 
 out making provision that those who entered the Service under the old con- 
 ditions should not suffer loss. Your petitioners would point out that we do 
 and shall suffer material pecuniary loss. Men invariably received their 1st 
 class appointments before reaching the maximum of the 2nd class. Those 
 who, in the ordinary course of events, would have received tlie substantial 
 rise to 24s. per week during the past year (some of whom entered on the 
 old minimum wage of 16s.) had that prospect taken from them without any 
 comj>e.nsation wliatever, and liave now to wait at le;ist another three year.s 
 before reaching the minimum of the old 1st class, viz., 24s. Further, your 
 petitioners would earnestly point out for j'our kind consideration that, before 
 the alteration, although receiving inadequate wages for our needs, 
 we were encouraged by the prospect of receiving a 1st class appointment 
 within a reasonable time. Your petitioners therefore pray that you may be 
 pleased to grant a continuance of 1st class appointments until all those who 
 were already in the Service before August, 1891, are receiving the higher 
 rate of wages, viz., 24s. 
 
 Appended is a copy of the notice which was afterwards posted up : — 
 
 NOTICE. 
 
 The Postmaster-General has carefully considered the memorials from cer- 
 tain postmen in the London districts, who represent that, by the improved 
 organisation of the postmen's force, which now allows all postmen to rise 
 without break to their respective maxima, they, as individuals, can no 
 longer expect that rapid promotion from 2nd to 1st class which sometimes 
 accompanied any large augmentation of force consequent on growth of busi- 
 ness. The Postmaster-General thinks that the revision of 1891 must be 
 looked at as a whole, and that the substantial improvement conferred on the 
 whole body ,of postmen must not be overlooked. A higher maximum has 
 been granted, postmen are no longer liable to be kept waiting for an in- 
 crement, an allowance for boots has been granted, the number of stripe al- 
 lowances has been added to, the regulations as to sick pay have been modified 
 in their favour, and, generally, their position is better, while the system is 
 fairer to all. The unusually rapid and accidental promotion of some, owing 
 to exceptional circumstances, was never intended, and the old system could 
 not be defended as equit.able. It appears to the Postma-ster-General that 
 the advantages of the new system more than outweigh the disadvantages 
 referred to by the memoriaUsts, and he iloes not see his way to make the 
 changes suggested. 
 
 (Signed) A. Pamphilon, Vice-Controller. 
 
 L.P.S.. 15th Sept., 1892.
 
 Abdlitlon'of Classific^tioa. 149 
 
 The Chairman : Were there any other memorials from your class prior to 
 the 15th September? 
 
 A. Oil, yes, sir ; there would have been some memorials from othef dis- 
 tricts of London possibly to the same effect, but not from the E.G. District. 
 We liad no reply to them. I am informed that 10 months previously one 
 was forwartled from the S.Wi District, and the reply to our memorbil was 
 really a reply to their memorial, but I repeat that this shows that our me- 
 morial was never considered. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then didn't you get an answer to your memorial? 
 A. That reply was given to us as a reply to our memorial. 
 The Chairman : Is not the explanation possibly this — Certain memofiala 
 had gone in from different parts of London, and the Department drew up 
 an answer in reply to tJiem. Your memorial came in four days after the 
 
 time the question had been decided, and as it raised a similar question 
 
 Witness (interrupting) :But — — 
 
 The Chairman : Do let me finish. May it not have been the case that 
 as your memorial raised a similar point to those raised by the other me- 
 morials it was considered tha't tlie answer given to. the first memorial was 
 also an answer to yours? 
 
 A. It might have been considered so, but the unfortunate part is that we 
 raised the question from a different standpoint. 
 
 Q. Don't you think it is right that the Department should be able to 
 judge for itself what it considers a sufEcient answer to a certain memorial ? 
 You have it that the Department came to the conclusion that the answer ha^l 
 been given in reply to other memorials, and that it nmst be taken as apply- 
 ing to your case. Were not tlie Department justified in referring you to 
 their former answer? It does not seem to me you have any great grievance 
 because the Department did so. I am not saying anything with regard to 
 tlie question raised, I am only dealuigi with the question as to how your 
 memorial was answered. 
 
 A. I think I shall show that the Department did not consider the matter 
 from our standpoint. Now that vou have heard our position and its soi- 
 disant answer, probably the first thought which occurs to you, as it occurred 
 to me upon the occasion of my first comparison of their relative character- 
 istics, is that the fundamental contention of the memorialists, i.e., the claun 
 for the continuance of primary advantages, is not even alluded to by the 
 defenders of the official position. The only conclusion possible is that they 
 found it convenient to ignore this contention because, having already com- 
 mitted themselves to its acceptance by numerous actions and statements, 
 they found thanselves on the horns of a dilemma presented by the fact that 
 if they, in this notice, definitely stated their acceptance of the premise, they 
 would have found it very difficult, if not impossible, to refute the arguments 
 whicli the memorialists ,had deduced from it, and if they definitely denied 
 the premise, they would at the same time be denying their own previous 
 attitude. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I only want to put this absolutely right. Your memorial 
 was sent in on the 19th September, and I find that my pretleccssor submitted 
 the matter to the Postmaister-General on the 6th December, 1892, that it 
 was fairly and^thoroughly considered at that time, that Mr. Morley ap- 
 proved the recommendation the same day to refer to the Controller for in- 
 formation, and that the memorials were answered on the 12th January, 1893. 
 Tlie Chairman : In those terms. 
 Mr. Walpole : Very much in those terms. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then it is as the Cliairman suggests, that this is a reply 
 to a previous memorial, atid that the Department in>dicated that they simply 
 adhered to tlieir decision on the point. 
 
 Witness : They did not notice our primary contention. 
 The Chairman : But even there, Mr. Symes, it is pomted out that you 
 have had "unusually rapid and accidental promotion?" 
 A. I will deal with that presently.
 
 150 H.;Syme8, e.c.d.o. 
 
 The Chairman : Wait a minute. The reply told you that '" The unusually 
 rapid and accidental promotion of some owing to exceptional circumstances 
 was never iutended, and the old system could not be defended as equitable." 
 Surely that from the official standpoint of view absolutely traverses your 
 contention that the agi'eement was you should have continuous promotion. 
 What the Department say is that they consider you misinterpreted what the 
 prunary advantages were. It was never intended to have this constant rapid 
 promotion. 
 
 A. They do not say that. 
 
 Q. They say so distinctly. 
 
 A. I don't think so. 
 
 Q. It certainly appears to me that they do. I am not now raising the ques- 
 tion whether the Department were right or wrong, or whether you were 
 right or wrong. I am only saying that it strikes me as an oulsider, looking 
 at the two documents, that the answer to them, rightly or wrongly, abso- 
 lutely meets all the pomts you raised. 
 
 A. Well, sir 
 
 The Chairman : Go on with your statement. 
 
 Witness : We may therefore regard this silence ss an admission that the 
 contention is indisputable. The statement contained in the second clause of 
 the petition, to the effect that the revision of 1891 abolished classification 
 without making prorision that those who entered! the Service under the old 
 conditions should not suffer loss, forming, the first contention admitted, the 
 basis of the complaints submitted to the Department by the whole of the 
 postmen in London who are affected by the abolition in question. I will 
 now, with your permission, endeavour to show you how much weight can 
 be attached to the statements which the Department placed Ijefore its peti- 
 tioners in 1892 as a conclusive refutal of the arguments aflvanced by them, 
 and as sufficient reason for refusing to entertain their complaints. 
 
 The Chairman : When you joined the Service did you expect as one of 
 the incidents of your service that you would make an extraordinary and 
 rapid jump from the 2nd to the 1st class? 
 
 A. I certainly expected that I should, my lord. There was no reason 
 to suppose at that perio4l when I joined the Service, seeing that it was 
 absolutely necessary from the nature and condition of the office that the 
 De^jartment should increase the staff to a large extent within a very short 
 space of time, I say there was no reason to suppose I should not have that 
 jump. 
 
 Q. Would it not be possible for the Department to merely increase the 
 number of 2ud class postmen? 
 
 A. No, sir ; because they got a statement upon wliich they based the 
 ratio. I applied to the Department for a copy of any orders modifying 
 the system of classification between 1869 and 1889. Mr. Hitchcock objected 
 t3 it on the ground that it was absolutely absurd to ask the Department 
 to rummage over the papers for a period of 20 years. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : This statement was drawn Tip later than 1884? 
 
 A. The question is, how did they arrive at their ratio? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There is nothing at all to show that there was any pledge 
 by the Department of any kind in regard to the proportion between the 
 1st and 2nd class. 
 
 A. But they must have had something to work on. 
 
 Mr. Smith : What pledge did they give you ? 
 
 A. That whatever appointments were open should be open to me. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Was any statement ever ma<ie to j^ou as to the proportion 
 V)etween the 1st and 2nd class? If so, when and how? 
 
 A. No more than what was going on under the system of cla.ssification. 
 
 The Chairman : It is perfectly open to tlie Dejxirtment to put its men into 
 whatever class it chooses.
 
 Abolition of Class! ficalioii. 151 
 
 Witness : Mr. Badcock spoke differently upon that point when he was 
 speaking of the newspaper men. He said they had a grievance if there 
 really had. been abolition of classification, but he endeavoured to prove 
 tliat it had not been alwlished, and that, on the contrary, it was merely 
 an amaigamatioK of the districts. In order to facilitate this examination 
 I will, with your permission, reduce this rather rambling document to 
 something like order by placing the statements therein contained in logical 
 setiuence, so that my answering arguments may be clear and to the point. 
 I shall, however, be exceedingly c;ireful not to ignore any one point. I 
 therefore deduce from the notice the following statements: — 
 
 (1) That cases — similar to those referred to by the memorialists — of what 
 the notice terms rapid promotion were accidental, owing to exceptional 
 circumstances, and were never intended. 
 
 (2) That what is described in the notice as " the disadvantage referred 
 to by the petitioners" is more than outweighed by the following advan- 
 tages : — (a) A higher maximum ; (b) postmen now rise without break to their 
 respective maxima ; (c) postmen are no longer liable to be kept waiting for 
 an increment ; (d) an allowance for boots ; (e) increase in the number of 
 stripe allowances ; and (f) favourable modifications in the regulations as to 
 sick pay. 
 
 (3) That the abolition of class improved the imy and position of postmen, 
 and that the present arrangement is fairer to all. 
 
 Now, in order to correctly estimate the value of the fist assertion (that 
 rapid promotion, by which 'the Department means giving 24s. a week to 
 men performing arduous and responsible duties, and who were at the time 
 mostly more than 21 years of age) was accidental and owing to exceptional 
 circumstances, I will quote a few cases from the E.G., .showing the 
 length of time elapsing before, and the age at which appointments were 
 obtained during the 20 years preceding the abolition of 1891. I will divide 
 this 20 years into periods, giving a few examples in each, stating the con- 
 ditions of ser.vioe, the average time elapsing between the date of entry 
 and that of receiving 1st class appointments, and the age on receipt of these 
 appointments, as follows: — 
 
 E. C. D 0. 
 
 1S71 to 1875. 
 
 Minimum of 2nd Class, ... ITi/- 
 
 „ ,, Ist Class 2:\j- 
 
 Average time in reaching 1st Ckss, ... ... ... \\ years. 
 
 ,, age on receipt of ,, ... between 20 and 21 years. 
 
 EXAMPLES. 
 
 Kirkham e itered Aug. Gth, 1872; iloceived Ist Class, Nov. 6lh, 187;'. 
 Herd ,, July 21st, 1871; „ ,, June21st, 1877. 
 
 18:5 to 187i». 
 
 
 Minimum of 2nd Class, 
 
 ,, ,, 1st Class, 
 
 Average time of reaching 1st Class, 
 
 ,, ago on ,, ,, 
 
 is/- 
 
 23/- 
 
 2 years, 9 months 
 20 ,, 3 „ 
 
 EXAMPLES. 
 
 
 Dunsmore entered May 3rd, 1875; received 1st Class, Nov.20th,ls77. 
 Brown, W., ,, March 17th, 1876 ; ,, ,, Feb. 1st, 1879. 
 
 The Cliairman : Wlien you take your averages do you strike them merely 
 upon the examples you have given us, or do you take them on the whole lot?
 
 152 H. Symes, E.C.D.O. 
 
 A. No, sir ; I have my figures here ; it is roughly drawn up. 
 
 Q. Upon how many men did you strike your -average? 
 
 A. On tlie whole, as far as possible. 
 
 It may be here remarked that during this period men were frequently 
 passed over for 1st class appointments owing to their being, at the time 
 these appointments became due to them, under the age of 20, the limit set 
 by the Department. This occurred in two of the cases quoted above, 
 viz., those of Brown and French. 
 
 1879 to 1882. 
 
 Minimum Boy Sorters and Assistant Letter-Car riers, ... 14/- 
 
 ,, 2nd Class Postmen, 18/- 
 
 1st „ 24/- 
 
 Aver;ige time as Boy Sorters and L tter Carriers, ... about 1 ye&r. 
 ,, on 2nd Class, ... ... ... ... ,, 2 ,, 
 
 ,, on receiving 1st Class, ... ... ... ,, 21 ,, 
 
 EXAMPLES. 
 
 Entered. Appointed 2nd Class. Beeeived 1st ChiRS. 
 
 Guillan, feptember 9th, 1879. ... April 8th, 18^3. 
 
 Parr, May 24th, 1880, About April. 1881, April 8th, 1883. 
 
 Hajigar, April 11th, 1881, ,, July 1882, Nov. 9th, 1-84. 
 
 I draw your attention to ^e fact tliat at tliis i)eriod of combined initial 
 service at a minimum of 14s., the age limit was 16 years. 
 
 The Chairman : When these boys received 14s., they did not do a full 
 day's work, did they? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. A full eight hours' day? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; the age limit was low then, and they were presumably 
 qualifying for the position of either sorter or postmen ; in fact, some of 
 them became sorters. Our age limit is practically 19, although theoreti- 
 cally it is 18. Taking this into consideration, and seeing tliat the Depart- 
 ment has recently stilted to some of these men who applied for third stripes 
 that their service as postmen commences with the date of 2nd ckss appoint- 
 ment, my average of two years is rather under than over the mark. It 
 should also be noted that during this period also men were frequently 
 passed over because tliey were under 20 years of age. Examples : Guillam 
 and Parr. 
 
 Jude, enteretl Nov. lltli, 1877. received 1st class June 20th, 1880. 
 French, entered June 25tli, 1877, received 1st class Nov. 1st, 1880. 
 
 Tlie Chairman: You come in about this point yourself, do you not? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord : t!ie last man who received the appointment entered 
 in 1889, a few montlis ])revious to me, altliough there are men who did not 
 get appointments who entered eiirlier than that. 
 
 1883 to 18 9. 
 
 Minimum of 2nd Class 16/- 
 
 „ 1st Clas 24/- 
 
 Avorage time in renchinir Ist Class, ... ... ... 4 years. 
 
 ,, age on receiving ,, ... ... ... 23i ,, 
 
 We have a case of a man with a 1st c1:ism aj)jH)intinont in the W.C. 
 District ; he is 54 years of ago, and cannot ]>os.sihly reach the maximum 
 before he is retired on jwicount of age. At the period tx) which I refer
 
 Abolition of Cla^sitication. 155 
 
 that the staff was insufficient is proved by the complaints of the men, 
 that they were working a considerable amount of overtime without payment. 
 
 EXAMPLES. 
 
 Entered. Appointed let Class. 
 
 Galbee, September 3rd, 1883. December Ifith, 1888. 
 
 Eldridge, December 12th, 18:j5. November 5th, 1S89. 
 
 Hyatt, July I3th, 188(5. March 23rd. 1890. 
 
 Harrowing, March 21st, 1887. February 22nd, 181)1. 
 
 Mann, April 25th, 1887. May 17th, 1891. 
 
 ♦Johns, April 25th, 18 9. July 26th. 
 
 * This was the 1 ist man appointed. 
 
 The average during this period is somewhat longer owing to tlie in- 
 sufficiency of stiiff to which I have before alluded. The examples which I 
 have quoted are fair representative instances, and you will find, if you inquire 
 further, that though they are, for the sake of convenience, taken from the 
 E.G., yet they can Ije substantiated for London in general. You are now, 
 then, with these examples before you, in a position to judge whether 
 the statement of the notice concerning the rapid promotion (i.e., as defined 
 by the men's petition appointment to the 1st class some considerable time 
 before reachuig the maximum of the 2nd) being accidental owing to ex- 
 ceptional circumstances, and never intended is or is not in consonance with 
 fact. Is the natural evolution of the Service through which men received 
 their appointments in periods varying from 1 year 9 months to 5 years a 
 matter of accident? (In one case it was a year and tliree months.) As for 
 being exceptional, I have proved, and not merely stated, that on the con- 
 trary the reverse, i.e., the delay of appointments, was the exception. And 
 with regard to it being never intended, what the Department calls rapid 
 promotion occurred almost uniformly during 20 years. In this connection 
 the question naturally presents itself, " How long does it take the Depart- 
 ment to discover its own intentions?" (Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to 
 the second statement, that what is spoken of as the disadvantage referred 
 to by the petitioners is more than outweighed by a list of advantages, real 
 or ost'Cnsiblp, I will consider these advantages one by one, in order to 
 arrive at a just estimation of their relative values as compensation for the 
 loss incun-ed. t'lause 3 of the notice skites, " A higher maximum has l)een 
 gi anted," as though that higher ma.ximum had formed part of tiie scheme 
 of August 2nd, 1891, and had been given to the j)etitioners as compensation 
 for tlieir loss. As a matter of fact, however, the rise in the maxinuim (2s. 
 weekly) did not take place until May, 1892, or about nine months after the 
 abolition of class, and thus formed a separate grant. 
 
 The Chairman : Now the 2nd class town postmen were only first intro- 
 duced in 1885, were they? 
 
 A. No, sir; in 1869. There was a classification of duties. They under- 
 went various changes, but I have not been able tti obtiiin the particulars. 
 Moreover, this higher maxinmm was given to all London postmen alike, 
 and, flierefore, cannot l)e regarded a-s compensation to men sutfering inuler 
 a sj^ecial loss, unless, indeed, it is contended that a small concession of 
 this description granted to postmen as a body from considerations of justice 
 at a time when other branches of the Service received increases not only in 
 their maxima, but also in their increments, c;in Iwj regarded as justifying the 
 violation of official procedure which is involved in the confiscation of a 
 portion of the emoluments due to a section of that body. And, moreover, 
 apart, from these considerations, the value of even this sliglit increase is 
 gieatly diminished when the niinib^^'r of years wiiich nuist newssiirily elapse 
 before, under the nuist favourable circiimstiinces, this maximum can be 
 reachetl, is ti'ken into account. To t;ike my own c;ise, it will tiike me.
 
 I5i II. Symks,;K.C.D.O. 
 
 at the present rate of progression, nine years from tlie 9lb of November 
 next, and 14 years 3 mouths fi-om August 2nfl, 1891 (the date on which, as 
 I will show, I should under the old conditions have received my 1st class 
 appointment) to reach this maximum. I think, therefore, that I xnay dismiss 
 the firet so-called advantage as untenable, firstly, because the number of 
 years before it can be obtained, and the fact that it is not availaVde at the 
 time when it is most needed, render its compensation, if admitted at all, 
 exceedingly small, and secondly, because a grant to a body of men given 
 on general grounds cannot be regarded as compensation for sectional loss. 
 The second advantage is far more apparent than real. The notice states 
 " po.stmen now rise without break to their respective maxima." You will 
 remember that, in enumerating the " conditions of service " which existed 
 under cla.ssification, I stated that the first increment of the 1st class was 
 biennial, i.e., that after a man had received his 1st class appointment he was 
 corn^telled to wait two years before receiving his next increment,, this custom 
 apjiarently having its origin in the period when the line of demarcation 
 between the two classes in the matter of duties was distinct, and having 
 its raison d'etre in the fact that the man was suj)posed to be qualifying 
 for his new duties. Of course, any pretext for this delay was utterly des- 
 troyed when postmen became one class. In order to set a just value upon 
 this advantage, it is necessary to remember that, as I have already shown, 
 during the 20 years prior to its existence men reached the wage of 248. 
 after periods of service ranging from two to five years, whilst those who 
 now enjoy this great advantage have hat! to wait from six to eight years 
 to attain to this weekly wage. Allowing one year to be added to tho 
 former periods, the respective number of years becomes : — 
 
 ' Ucder Under 
 
 Two Classes. One Class. 
 
 ' Shortest periods 3 years. G years. 
 
 Longest ,, years. 8 years. 
 
 An.l this in spite of the indisputal)le fact tliat the question of the Service 
 generally, leaving postmen out of the (juestion, has improved. With regard 
 to the third statement of advantage, viz., "That postmen are no longer liable 
 to l)e kept waiting for an increment," I nrnst confess that I am somewhat at 
 a loss for an explanation of its meaning. I have not yet heard of anything 
 whatever which, under the old .system, would have caused an increment or 
 appointment to be arrested or suspended which will not to-day do so. 
 Indeed, this is so to a greatly intensified degree. A few years ago it was 
 not common, as it is now, for a man whose annual attendances ^ere 900, 
 a third of those involving departure from home at 4 a.m., to have his 
 increment or stripe stopped because he was eight times late during the year, 
 because he had been punislied once or twice for some venial ofl'ence, or be- 
 cause he had been i-eported without seeing the report or being told who 
 rej'orled him, for that indefinable offence technically known as " lack of 
 energy." These things are common now, and have been for the last three 
 or four years. On these grounds, then, pending some explanation of its 
 meaning, I may dismiss the third advantage as unproved. The fourth ad' 
 vantage is an allowance for boots. Like Mr. Maclaren, I am not aware 
 that this allowance can be counted as wages. This allowance (one guinea a 
 year, or rather less than 5d. a week) seems a somewhat small recompense 
 for our loss, and, moreover, it must be dismissed as having no bearing on 
 tlie ca.se in question, being granted to all postmen in tardy recognition of 
 the fact that the nature of their duties involves some considerable expense 
 in shoe leather, an ex|)ense which it is obvious tlie sum granted by no 
 m«ins fully defrays. The fifth advantage — " Increase in the number of 
 striix! allowances" — is of the same character, being small in comparison to 
 our loss, and having no bearing upon our case, becau.se it was granted to all
 
 Abolition of Classification. 155 
 
 as a tardy recognition of the fact that men who had fulfilled all the ne» 
 cessary conditions were sometimes kept waiting a considerable time for their 
 stripes because the number of tliose stripes issued had not been increased 
 in such proportion as to meet the requirements of a continually increasing 
 Btatf. The sixth statement of advantage is to the effect that the regula- 
 tions as to sick pay have been modified in our favour. This, I presume, 
 is meant to refer to the fact that formerly a third of an officer's pay was 
 stop{)ed when he was absent on sick leave, whereas since June, 1890, full 
 pay has been allowed. Unfortunately for the argument, recent sad events 
 have effectively demonstrated that it is now more difficult than ever to 
 obtam that sick leave, and may be taken as an indication to you of what 
 is well known to anyone acquainted with the undercurrent of official pro- 
 cedure in the Post Office, that the fact of full pay being given has been 
 made an excuse for making it so difficult to obtain leave that many men 
 (who, in employment in which sick absence meant nothing but monetary 
 loss, would certainly take a rest) go about in suffering because they know 
 that the official medical officer, unless their complaint be infectious, or 
 renders their continuance on duty an absolute impossibility, will certainly 
 not give them leave, and if they venture to hint their need of such leave 
 or to apply to an outside medical man, tliat they will lay tliemselves open 
 to a suspicion of malingering which will probably lead to an interpreta- 
 tior. of perfectly innocent acts into a justification of that suspicion. This is the 
 explanation of the fact tliat, despite the prevalence of the influenza 
 during the years on which he reported, Dr Wilson was able to state, in his 
 evidence to you, that the percentage of sick absences was considerably less 
 than formerly. Thus, then, this sixth advanta.ge appears in the light, 
 not of a benefit to the men, but of aia official economy. But, even if this 
 were not so. every argument wliich applies in the other cases with respect 
 to their being granted to all sections of postmen, applies with greater force 
 in this instance, as this full sick pay was given to the entire Postal Service. 
 We thus see that the whole of these soi-disant comiJensatory advantages 
 vanish into thin air on being subjected to critical investigation. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Am I to understand you to say that as postmen you 
 received no compensation that was not included in what was given to the 
 Service generally? 
 
 A. Yes. Other men who reached their maximum in a certain period have 
 got the increase of the maximum wage, and it is not fair to ju<lge us from 
 that standpoint, as it makes us appear before the public in an artificial light 
 as receiving advantages which we never got. That is why we ask compensa- 
 tion. We are now enabled to accurately estimate the value of the third 
 assertion contained in the official notice, viz., "That the abolition of class 
 improved the pay and position of the postmen, and the present arrangement 
 is fairer to all." But now I have already demonstrated to you that 
 neither the rise in the minimum nor that in "the maximum can be, by any 
 stretch of the imagination, considered as having any connection with class 
 abolition. I have shown that formerly men attained to something approach- 
 ing a living wage much more rapidly than is possible to even the most 
 favourably situated now. It is easy to see from the figures I have quoted 
 at the former rate of progression the average length of time required to 
 reach tlie present maximum would be somewhat less than 14 years, whereas 
 now even those who entered the Service after Nov. 9th, 1889, will be 16 years 
 in reaching their maximum, whilst tliose unfortunates who entered prior 
 to that date will be from 16 to 18 years — a somewhat long apprenticeship. 
 
 The Chairman : The maximum would be 4s. more ? 
 
 A. Not necessarily so. A number of men entered between 1882 and 1891. 
 and all these men rose straight to the present Tnaximum. The others could 
 not. Their rise to the higher maximum would be more tlian compensated 
 for in the earlier years, when life is harde.st. Then, as to it being fairer to 
 all, that may, I venture to think, be doubted, but if tliat means tliat it ia
 
 156 H. SmEs, E.C.D.O. 
 
 more certain I readily admit that. The present arrangement is certain — 
 certain in its slowness — while that formerly existing was uncertain, inas- 
 much as it afiForded the prospect of frequently rising at a considerably quicker 
 rafc than is possihle at present, this prospect, however, being tempered 
 by the certainty of never rising at a slower rate. Before (juitting this 
 document, there is one remark contained therein that I should like to notice, 
 i.e., "The Postmaster-General thinks that the revision of 1891 must be 
 looked at as a whole, and that the substantial improvement conferred on 
 the whole body of postmen must not be overlooked. I have already shown 
 the value of this .substantial improvement, but were it real inste^id of fic- 
 titious, I should still think it somewhat a new departure for a public de- 
 partment to ask a .section of its employees to console themselves for a 
 special loss by the exercise of altruism. Official altruism is somewhat of a 
 revelation to psycliologists. I will now, with your permission, draw your 
 attention to a few anomalies selected from amongst many which exist to-day 
 in London as the direct result of the irregular manner in which classification 
 was abolished in 1891. The first instance is that of the men who, entering 
 under classification, obtained a transfer to some other district. Now, when 
 this transfer Ls official, the rule is that the men shall be placed in order of 
 seniority behind all other est;iblished officers at their new office. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Are these transfers made by the Department on its own 
 initiative, or on the application of the men? 
 
 A. I really cannot say about that ; I merely point out the fact. I am 
 not going to enter upon the whole subject of their position. I am merely 
 going to point out that the abolition of class deprives them of what they 
 might reasonably have expected from the Government in the shape of ap- 
 pointments. I am told tliat the transfers are made on personal application, 
 but that in some cases it has been the act of the Department itself. I 
 cannot, liowever, vouch for that from personal knowledge. Many men of 
 this class were at the time when class was abolished expecting their appoint- 
 ments, but the manner in which this abolition was carried out deprived 
 them of all hope of obtaining these appointments, and they were thus 
 punished, although they were men of good character, by the loss of a 
 portion of their wages. As cases in point I may mention Thomas Knill, 
 Earl's Court, and Weinberg and Martin, E.C.D.O. The second anomaly 
 consists of the position in wliich two men of the W.D.O. (Howe and Chap- 
 man) find themselves now that the abolition of class has deprived them, 
 although men of good character, of a chance of getting on a level with their 
 juniors in the Service. The circumstances of the case are tliese : — In the 
 days of the Postmen's Union one of these men was secretary, the other a 
 collector for the local branch. This appears to have given umbrage to Mr. 
 Lorraine, then chief clerk of the district, the result being that het declined 
 to recommend them for their 1st class appointments when these became due. 
 Since then, however, they have made repeated applic^itions concerning the 
 matter, and have been informeil that their records were good, and the officials 
 can find no proper explanation of the fact that they were passed over, but 
 no further appointments having been sanctioned, their grievance cannot be 
 remedied. 
 
 Mr. Waljrole : We have had this case before us. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. These men suffer a continued loss. The next paragraph 
 in my evidence is rather a divergence. Shall I read it? 
 
 The Chairman: The appeal for the men's reinsta,tement? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 The Chairman : You had better not go into that. 
 
 Witness: Very well, my lord, 1 will pass it over. The third anomaly 
 consists of tlie fact that all tho.se men who, like mysolf, were among the 
 first in the order of seniority entitled to 1st class appomtments are to-day 
 receiving sums ranging from 3s. to 5s. per week less than men who entered 
 the Service under precisely the same conditions some three or four months
 
 Levies — Choosing of Duties, &c. 157 
 
 before them. To take my own case as an examijle, I received my 2nd 
 class appointment on August 12tli, 1889, Avhile the man immediately pre- 
 ceduig me, leaving out of count those passed over, received his on April 
 8th in the same year. My weekly wage is 24s. My increment dates from 
 November. The wage of my senior by three months is 28s., tlie increment 
 diiting from July. That means that rising by annual increments of Is. 
 per week his original seniority of three months has become four years four 
 months, and instead of being on the same wage as myself for eight montha 
 in the year, and Is. in advance during the remaining four months, the 
 difference has become 4s. during eight months, and 5s. during four months, 
 or an annual difference of £11 4s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : 3s. to 5s. did you say? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have quoted an examj)le. 
 
 Q. That man must have got rapid promotion? 
 
 A. Yes ; extraordinarily rapid promotion, owing to the rapid develop- 
 ment of the Service. 
 
 Q. After three years in the second class it should be an addition of 2s. ? 
 
 A. It would be more than that. It took me six years to get to the 24s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I make it 2s. in three years. 
 
 A. I entered in August, 1889, and during the first three months' service 
 I got 16s. Another anomaly arising from the irregular manner in which 
 classification was abolished, the effects of which anomaly are felt in most of 
 the London offices, is expressed in a communication submitted to me bv 
 the men affected in the E.C.D.O. This communication I will now, with 
 your permission, read to you, as follows: — • 
 
 We, representing a large number of postmen at the E.C.D.O., desire to 
 submit to the consideration of the Inter-Departmental Committee a serious 
 grievance from which we are still suffering, in consequence, we contend, 
 of the remains of a formerly exi.sting class system, tlie anomalous distinc- 
 tions of which still make themselves felt to us by means of the duties we 
 perform. 
 
 At the E.C.D.O., and we believe, to a great extent throughout London, 
 a large proportion of the walk sections are distributed by means of a system 
 of levying, i.e., a species of auction, in which the seniors have the preference. 
 But we, the junior men at the E.C.D.O., have never been permitted to 
 enjoy the privilege of participating in these levies, a consequence of the 
 class system which existed ])rior to 1891, under which system the character 
 of the Work performed by the two classes was, in the first place, different. 
 But although the distinction in title and work has disappeared, we at 3, 
 in consequence of the unfair manner in which tlie change was introduced, 
 still labouring under the following disadvantages : — 
 
 (1) We are not allowed to choose our duties in accordance with our 
 seniority, which is obviously a great inconvenience, seeing tliat it exposes 
 us to the risk of being placed upon a walk situated possibly in that part 
 of the district which is the most distant from our homes, and we thus have 
 both expense and inconvenience thrust upon us. 
 
 (2) Having no choice of duty, we are compelled to remain indefinitely 
 upon either the floating staff or upon duties which do not finish till Ijetween 
 9 and 10 p.m., although there are many other duties in existence, and many 
 older men wjauld gladly exchange their duties, which involve early morning 
 attendances, if they could at the .same time preserve their right of choosing 
 and fixity of tenure in the said duties. This is more esijccially a grwit 
 hardship to young men. 
 
 (3) We are precluded by this arrangement fi'om taking a fair share of 
 the Christmas boxes, although the Department, in fixing the amount of our 
 ^vages, has taken these Christmas boxes into consideration. We are thus 
 deprived of a portion of our wages.
 
 158 H. Symes, E.C.D O. 
 
 We would therefore urge that the system of levying, which has, wherever 
 it lias been adopted, proved so satisfactory an arrangemeat, should Imj 
 extended so as to include all duties, whether at present termed assistant or 
 no, in its scope. 
 
 The Department having, in merging tlie classes, alrea^ly recognised that 
 the work performed by all sections of the men is practically identical in 
 character, should, we contend, to Ite logical, abolish this remaining class 
 distinction, so tliat wo may all be, in fact as well a.s in theory, one class, 
 i.e., postmen. 
 
 Signed on behalf of the men concerned, 
 
 Hew Pricb, Postman. 
 J. Frami'TON, Postman. 
 H. J. Mole, Postman, 
 
 All these anomalies, as well as others, are obviously due to the fact that, 
 in violation of all precedent, the Department ignored the principle of the 
 continuance of primary advantages when introducing the scheme of 1891. 
 I now come to the consideration of an admission by the Department which 
 somewhat contradicts the notice of Sept. 15th, 1892. You will remember 
 that, despite its appeal to altruistic sentiments, the general tenour of that 
 notice indicates that we were mistaken in supposing that we had lost 
 anything by the abolition of the classes, and that, on the contrary, we 
 gained by "it. Well, on March 21st, 1895. in reply to another attempt 
 on our part to get a hearing, the controller, whilst referring "us to that 
 very notice of 1892, at tlie same time submitted to us the official estimate 
 of the amount lost in the case of 22 men att<iched to the E.C.D.O. The 
 question arises as to whether the Department is really sure of their attitude 
 on the subject, except so far that it is determined, for reasons of economy, 
 to prevent us obtaining redress. At any rate, we have the Departmental 
 admission tliat we did lose, and that is something. The only question then 
 is, how much? I here rec-;ill to your memory that in my own case, which I 
 will here, for the sake of clearness, use as an illustration which applies, 
 in gieater or lesser degree, to all the other men concerned. I should — if 
 my questions concerning the projected appointments of May. 1891, are, as 
 I have reason to believe they must be, answered in the affirmative — have 
 received my appointment at that date. If tliis be not admitted, then, as 
 65 appointments were authorised by the Treasury minute of May, 1891. and 
 as these must — the number of men eligible for these appointments taken 
 into consideration — have included men three or four months my seniors, 
 I should thus have received my appointment about August of that year. 
 If, again, we take the Departmental statement, it would have been Novem- 
 ber. We have thus three dates in 1891, viz., May, August, and Novemlier. 
 In estimating our loss, however, another fact has to be taken into considera- 
 tion, viz., that under classification men had to wait two years after receiv- 
 ing the 1st class minimum before their first increment became due. I see 
 that the Department, in tlie estimate submitted, has t-aken this fact into 
 consideration. But I would point out as an argument against this calcula- 
 tion that the men who are our seniors by three or four months waited only 
 12 months after the receipt of their 1st class for tlieir increment, and, 
 moreover, as it was only after great pressure Ijeing brought to bear upon 
 the Department that these appointments were sanctioned in December, 1891, 
 and, as they were dated from July, although they should have been issued 
 in May, it seems but just, taking into consideration the fact that, had these 
 appointments been granted in May, the preservation of the ratio between 
 our service and tlieirs would iiave caused the first amongst us to receive 
 appointments to August of that year, that in estimating our loss, if the 
 wait for increment is taken into consideration, the calculation should com- 
 mence from August, and if the difference between our service and that of the
 
 Levies — Choosinsr of Duties, &c. 159 
 
 afoiementioned seniors is taken as dating our appointments from Novo.mber, 
 thai we should, in justice, receive the same benefits as those seniors re- 
 ceived, and not be compelled to wait for our increment. I vrill now pro- 
 ceed, with your permission, to give you some idea of the amount of our 
 loss, taking 1st, the Departmental calculation ; 2iiLd, tlie calculation from 
 August ; and 3rd, the calculation from November, without the wait for 
 increment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When was this Departmental calculation made ? 
 
 A. In 1895. 
 
 Q. At your request, or in answer to a memorial? 
 
 A. It was sul)mitt€d originally to the suj>erintendcnt, and we were not 
 intended to see it. 
 
 Q. It was a paper worked out by the superintendent for the purpose, of 
 his report, was it not? 
 
 A. It was in his hands at the time of las writing to us ; I applied for it,. 
 
 Q. It formed no part of the reply of the Department to your memorial, 
 did it? 
 
 A. Not in the least ; but it showed that the Department admitted our 
 case, for they drew up the calculitions ; otherwise they coidd not have had 
 the basis to work upon. I will, taking these three calculations as a basis, 
 show, Isfc, the loss we shall sustain before attaining to our maxinmm ; 2nd 
 th-''. amount lost 1)y us up to the present time, and will, as usual, take my 
 own case as an illustration: — 
 
 Pnm Novemb r, 1891, to November, 1905 (date of Maximum). 
 On the Departmental Calculation. 
 
 11 years at 4/- per week, ... ... ... ... ... i)10 8 
 
 1 year at 3/- per week, ... ... ... ... ... 85 1(5 
 
 1 J ear at L'/- per week, ... ... ... ... ... 5 4 
 
 1 year at 1/- per week, ... ... ... ... ... L' 12 
 
 Total Lo.'S ])y date of Maximum, i:i04 
 
 From AugusS 1891, to November, 1905 (date of Maximum). 
 Allowing Two Years to receipt of First Increment. 
 
 13 montns at 5/- per week, ... ... ... ... £3 5 
 
 3 years and (5 months at 4/- per week, ... ... ... 3G 8 
 
 3 years and months at 3/- per week, ... ... ... <iG (> 
 
 1 year at 2/- per week, ... ... ... .. ... 5 4 
 
 1 year at 1/- per week, 2 12 
 
 Total Loss by date of Maximum, ... ... £113 15 
 
 From November, 1891, to November, 1905. 
 Without waiting for Increment. 
 
 11 years at 4/- per week, ... ... ... ... ... £114 8 
 
 1 year at 3 - per week, ... ... ... ... ... 7 16 
 
 1 year at 2/- per week, ... ... ... ... ... 6 4 
 
 1 year at 1/- per Week, ... ... ... ... ... 2 12 
 
 Total Loss by date of Maximum, ... ... £130
 
 160 H. Symks, E.C.D.O. 
 
 From Ncircniber, IS'Jl, to February, 1-'J3 
 
 On the Departmental Valuati(jn. 
 
 1 year at 4/- per week, 
 
 3 years and 6 months at 3/- per week, ... 
 
 £\0 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 27 
 
 G 
 
 
 
 £37 
 
 14 
 
 
 
 Total Loss up to February, 1S9(3, ... 
 
 From August, 1S!)1, to February, 180G. 
 
 All wing Two Years to Receipt of First Increment. 
 
 3 months at 5/- per week, £3 5 
 
 1 year and montlis at 4/- per week, ... .. ... IS 4 
 
 '2 years and 6 months at 3/- per week, ... ... ... 19 10 
 
 Total Loss up to February, 189(3, £40 10 
 
 From November, 1891, to February, 1S96. 
 
 Without waitingPfor Increment. 
 
 4 years and 3 n.cntl s at 4/- per week, £44 4 
 
 These figures apply, with some sligh't variations, to the whole of those 
 who were, in August, 1891, on the eve of receiving their appointments; the 
 latter sums represent the amount they have already earned, ^nd which, in 
 consequence, is owing to them by the Department. 
 
 The Chairman: How many were there of this sort? 
 
 A. That is a difficult question to answer ; they are scattered all over Lon- 
 don. The number of men more or less directly affected, would be alwut 500. 
 In my own office there would be somewhere over 100, but I do not know the 
 exact figure. I did not think it necessary 'to get that. Naturally, having 
 shown our loss, you \\ ill ex2>ect a suggestion a.s to remetly. It seems to me 
 that the w^hole tenour of my evidence indicates that there can be but one 
 adequa)te remedy, i.e., carrying out, in this instance, the principle of con- 
 tinuance of primary conditions of service, by granting 1st class appointments 
 to all conoernerl at periods regulated by ithe ratio formerly preserved between 
 the classes. Also, in my judgment, the justest calculation to adopt is the 
 last I have mentioned, because it would give to us the same relative position 
 in the Service as men who entered under exactly the same conditions. Jus- 
 tice also, it seems to me, could only be satisfied by tliQ payment of back 
 money in full, as, if my interpretation of official procedure and my reasoning 
 therefi-om are correct, that money has already been earned by us. I think 
 I may claim thajt I have fully demonstrated the departure from the rule, 
 and I would here point out the necessity, for the sake of the preservation 
 of Departmental honour, of a close adherence to it. We have committed 
 our futures to the keeping of the Department. At a period of our life's 
 history when we had to de'termine our course in life, we surrendered what- 
 ever opportunities nught have fallen to our lot of rising by energy, ability, 
 or even by lucky chaaice, to a position higher than any possible within the 
 narrow, inelastic, and necess;iril}^ slowly developing limits of Departmental 
 promotion, in exchange for whaJt we were led to l)elieve was a certainty of 
 such regularity in conditions of service as excluded the possibility of retro- 
 gression in those conditions. We have l>een sadly deceived, and having spent 
 the best years of our lives in acquiring an aptitude for work which is not, 
 outside the Service, of a niarketaljle nature, wo have seen the years passing 
 by wliiLst we — some of us with growing families (I myself am not marrietl) — 
 are still some years <Ustant from the attainment of what Mr. Chaides Booth 
 liiuH callwl the minimum living wage in London 30s. jKjr week. It is not
 
 i 
 
 i
 
 Floatincc Staff — Allowances, etc. 161 
 
 for the benefit of the Department that such just cause for discontent should 
 be given, the Departmental machinery must suffer through it, and both 
 inside and outside the Service the impression is spread, and sunk deeply into 
 the minds of all, that once a man commits himself to the tender mercy of 
 the Department, that Department will, for the sake of economy, stretch 
 its power to the utmost limit. I need say no more, feeling convinced that 
 after the evidence laid before you, your sense of justice and of what is due 
 to Departmental honour will lead to a favourable recommendation. My 
 lord and gentlemen, thaA is my case on " Abolition of Classification." 
 
 The Chau'man : Do you know where the remark about a living wage is 
 a quotation from? 
 
 A. From Charles Booth's " Life and Labour in London." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you certain of your quotation ? 
 
 A. Yes ; he makes 30s. a living wage, and 24s. a poverty wage. 
 
 The Chairman : That is for a man with a family ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but a large number of our men have families. I am sufficiently 
 old myself to be married. I shall be 26 in ^pril, but I only get 24s. a week, 
 and should not like to marry on that. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I am afraid if you were to get all you are now asking for 
 you would be tempted to marry. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. Well, I should have been getting another 4s. a week. 
 
 FLOATING STAFF ALLOWANCE. 
 
 I will now submit to you the case of the London floating staff, i.e., that 
 portion of the postmen's force which, in every London office, is kept in re- 
 serve, or floating on the erratic tide of official exigencies for the purpose of 
 filling vacancies caused through sick absences, annual leave, etc. These men 
 are strongly of opinion — and I may here state that llie, postmen as a body 
 share that opinion — that then- duties are of sucli a nature as to entitle them 
 to special recSmpense, preferably in tlie form of a monetary allowance. In 
 support of this claim tliey contend tliat the nature of tlieir duties places 
 them in a position of considerable disadvantage in comparison with other 
 postmen. 1 will deal with this contention under the five following head- 
 ings : — 
 
 (1) The increased expense incurred by the men through the uncertain 
 nature of the hours of attendance. 
 
 (2) The increase of responsibility through the multiplicity of the duties 
 performed. 
 
 (3) The increased risk of ill-health owing to the irregulair habits caused 
 through frequent changes in the hours of attendance. 
 
 (4) TTie increased difficulty of keeping a clear record for punctuality owing 
 to these changes. 
 
 (5) Personal inconvenience, by which I mean the difficulty of disposing 
 of their time. 
 
 In order that my arguments may be clearly understood, I will, prior to 
 entermg upon the consideration of these five points, read to you representa- 
 tive statements of duties performed, which statements liave been furnished 
 by members of the floatmg staff attached to tlie E.C.D.O. : — 
 
 " I am a junior postman earning 22s. weekly. It is my duty, as one of 
 the holiday working stiiff, to perform an oflicer's deliveries or other duties 
 during his absence on annual leave, which necessitates a fortnightly change 
 of attendances at the office. After the holiday season is endoil I am placed 
 on what is called a reserve staff, from which j'am liable to lie placed on any 
 duty made vacant by sickness or official leave of the proper officer. These 
 duties may vary daily, which the following eight days of my attendances 
 will show : — 
 
 "On Friday, 17th Jan., I commenced duty at 5 a.m. till 9 a.m., after 
 which I attended at 9.50 a.m. for the 10' o'clock delivery, and 12.50 p.m. 
 for 1 o'clock delivery. I was instructed to attend the following day (Satur- 
 p
 
 162 H. Symes, E.e.D.O. 
 
 day, Jan. 18tli) at 5 a.m., and pterformed 5 till 9 a.m., and 4 till 8 p.m. — 
 tlius the duty extended over 15 hours. During this later duty I ■was em- 
 ployed both in .sorting letters and v^heeling truck-loads of papers through 
 the office. On Monday and Tuesday (20th and 21st), 12 p.m. till 8 p.m. I 
 attended 5 a.m. the following morning (Jan. 22), performing the general 
 post on one walk, and attending again at 9.50 a.m., anu 12.50 p.m. for 10 
 and 1 o'clock deliveries on another. The next morning (Jan. 23) 5 a.m. for 
 general post on entirely different walk, and again another walk for the 4 
 o'clock delivery. Next day, 5 a.m. till 1 p.m. ; finishing the week (25th) 
 by attending at 5 a.m. for G.P. delivery, and 2.30 p.m. for 5 o'clock de- 
 livery. It is a frequent occurrence to receive a note after having arrived; 
 home informing me of my duties for the following day." 
 
 Mr. Smith: Do all these duties begin at 5 in the morning? 
 
 A. I am not quite oertam. 
 
 The Chairman : There are two in the middle of the day. 
 
 A. They are very moderate eixamples of duty. I have some worse ones 
 here. To continue the statement — 
 
 "In some cases I have received these notes as late as 7.30 p.m., with in- 
 structions to attend the following morning at 5. In one instance I left the 
 office understanding I was to attend the following day at 12 noon. On arriv- 
 ing home late that night I found a note had been delivered instructing me 
 to resume duty again at 5 a.m. through the sick absence of the proper officer, 
 thus depriving me of a reasonable night's rest. I have been three years now 
 on this staff, and am unable to claim a settled duty on account of my general 
 knowledge of a great many duties. Should a man show aptitude for learning 
 new duties he is retained on the staff, while other men are allowed to remain 
 on one settled duty for years, thus, of course, receiving a reward for not 
 showing special aptitude. (Laughter.) The general feeling of the men of 
 my class is one of dissatisfaction a,t the loss of those privileges which other 
 postmen, both senior and junior, enjoy. The irregular meal times and rests 
 which this .system creates are, in our opinion, detrimental to physical health, 
 dome-stic comfort, and economy. My 22s. weekly wage is inadequate to the 
 increased demands made upon it bv these coiiditions. 
 
 J. Frampton, E.e.D.O. 
 
 Week ending Oct. 26th, 1895 : —Monday, 5 to 9 a.m.; 9.50 for 10 a.m. 
 deliveries ; 12.50 for 1 p.m. deliveries — Holborn. 
 
 Tuesday, G.P., commencing at 5 a.m. ; ].15 for 4 p.m. delivery — Clerken- 
 wcU Green. 
 
 Wednesday, G.P. ; 1.15 for 4 p.m. delivery — Clerkenwell Green. 
 
 Thursday, 5 to 9 a.m. ; 2.50 for 3 p.m. delivery: 5.50 for 6 p.m. delivery 
 — Queen Victoria Street. 
 
 Frida^j', 5 to 9 a.m. ; 10.50 for 11 a.m. delivery ; 5.50 for 6 p.m. delivery 
 — Mark and Mincing Lanes. 
 
 Saturday, 5 to 9 a.m. ; 10.50 for 11 a.m. delivery^ — Mark and Mincing 
 Lanes. 3 to 5.30, Sorting Olfice. 
 
 Week endmg November 9th, 1895: — Monday, 5 to 9 a.m.; 10.50 for 11 
 a.m. deliveiy ; 2.50 for 3 p.m. delivery — Moorgate Street. 
 
 Tuesday, 10.50 for 11 a.m. delivery ; 2.50 for 3 p.m. delivery — Moorgate 
 Street. 6.50 for 8 p.m. delivery — Hatton ' Garden. 
 
 Wednesday, 5 to 9 a.m. ; 10.50 for 11 a.m. deliver}^; 2.50 for 3 p.m. de- 
 livery — Moorgate Street. 
 
 Thursdav, 5 to 9 a.m. ; 4 to 8 ]i.m. — Postmen's Office. 
 
 Friday, 5 to 7.30 a.m. ; 2.30 to 8 p.m.— Sorting Office. 
 
 Saturday, 5 to 7.30 a.m. ; 2.30 to 8 p.m.— Sorting Office. 
 
 Week ending Dec. 7tli. 1895: — Monday, 11.30 for 2 p.m. delivery — Fins-, 
 bury Cicrus. 5.50 for 8 p.m. delivery — Myddleton Square. Two points in 
 one district very widely apart. 
 
 Tuesday, 9.20 for 10 a.m. delivery; 1.50 for 2 p.m. delivery — Finsbury 
 Circus. 5.50 for 8 p.m. delivery — Alyddleton Square. 
 Wednesday, 5 to 9 a.m. : 9.50 for 12 p.m. delivery — Finsburv Circus.
 
 Floating Staff — Allowances, etc. 163 
 
 Thursday, 11.30 for 12 p.m. delivery; 3.20 for 4 i).iii. delivery — Mincing 
 Lane. 6.30 for 8 p.m. delivery^ — Myddleton Square. 
 
 Friday, 12 for 12 noon delivery; 3.20 for 4 p.m. delivery — Queen Vic- 
 toria Street. Finished inside at 7.30. 
 
 Saturday, 12 to 8 p.m. — Postmen's Office. 
 
 G, A. Langston. 
 
 Tliese statements may be regarded as clearly showing the nature of the 
 duties referred to, and as they are quite ordinary and representative, and, al- 
 though taken haphazard from the E.C.D.O., they embody the variations 
 and attendant inconveniences which characterize the duties performed by 
 the London floating staff as a whole. I now proceed to deal with my first 
 contention — "That increased expense is^inciirred by these men through tha 
 uncertain nature of their duties." The examples I have quoted indicate, in 
 some slight degree, the meaning of the phrase " uncertain nature of their 
 duties," but in order to grasp the full significance of this phrase it is neces- 
 sary to give due weight to the fact that these exami)les aje but genei'al out- 
 lines, and are subject to endless variations in accordance with the exigencies 
 created by the necessity of rapidly and efficiently filling the place of any 
 I>art of the complex and interdependent Departmental machinery which may 
 suddenly break down. The question now arises — In what manner do the 
 obviously uncertain duties cause increased expense? To which question I 
 reply : 1st, witli regard to food. In the economy of a. working man's house- 
 hold there is no room for waste. But the nature of tlie duties performed by 
 these men renders i the avoidance of waste an absolute impossibility. Take, 
 for instance, a man who, say at the E.C.D.O., is instructed to t.ake up duty 
 at 5 a.m. for the purpose of working a sick vacancy, the duty consisting of 
 first delivery, 2 p.m. delivery, and 6 p.m. delivery. Naturally he arranges 
 for breakfast to be prepared at home, l)ut at some time during the morning 
 either the man whose place he is tilling may arrive or it may be necessary 
 to place him on another duty, no other man being ajvailable. In either case 
 he is frequently compelled to incur the expense of purchasing his breakfast 
 at the office refreshment bar, thus providing for it twice. On the other 
 hand he may attend at 5 a.m. either without fixed duty or expecting to per 
 form a duty which would enable him to reach home in time for dimier, but 
 being contrary to his expectatioixs, placed on say G.P., 11 a.m.. and 3 p.m. 
 deliveries, or some other duty which prevents him reaching liome imtfi the 
 evening, he is compelled, in like manner, to purchase another dinner. It is 
 obvious, and particularly so in the case of these men who are mostly but 
 a few stages from the minimum wage, that a postman's wages are not suffi- 
 cient to keep pace with the expense involved in the continual purchase of 
 food from refreshment rooms M'hich these erratic duties necessitate. Add 
 to this the waste which I have referred to, and the increased expenditure 
 on food is clearly proved. The second increased expenditure incurred by some 
 of these men is in travelling. Most London postmen are compelled to live 
 at a considerable distance from the office, and travelling expenses conse- 
 quently form no incon.siderable item in the household budget. More especi- 
 ally is this so with men employed on the floating staff, for finishing as they 
 do at all hours, at widely divergent points, and often, on two consecutive 
 days, at two extremities of the respective districts in which they are em- 
 ployed, they are frequently thus debarred from becoming season ticket 
 holders, from taking advantage of workmen's trains, and from practising 
 that economy which can often be effected by regularly riding from a given 
 point and using the same method of conveyance. Also, wearied by the strain 
 of wandering over great buildings such as, for example. Mansion House 
 Chambers, or up and down obscure streets, in the tedious endeavour to 
 discover names and places which are frequently imperfectly known, harassed 
 by the worry generated by the consciousness of the increased risk of mis- 
 delivery, with all its attendant consequences, they are frequently compelled, 
 through sheer physical and mental e^ihaustion, to casti considerations of
 
 164 H. Symes, E.C.D.O. 
 
 economy to the -winds, and wilfully launch into an expenxliture of travelling 
 of which tlie items, small in themselves, collectively form sums which make 
 considerable inroads upon their meagre wages. Having shown how the 
 uncertain nature of floating staff duties involves increased expense, I come 
 to my second pomt, viz., the increiise of responsibility through the multi- 
 plicity of tliese same duties. In tliis connection there are several minor de- 
 tails which need l)ut a passing reference, such, for instance, as the difficulty 
 which a niiui suddenly iiistructed to collect from a box, whose position is im- 
 perfectly known to him, has in collecting and returning to the office exactly 
 in the time allowed, and the consequent risk lie incurs of being reported. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are men reported and punished for l)eing late as severely 
 as if they were on their regular duties? 
 
 A. The unfortunate part is that from the character of the explanations 
 rcceivtd, the officials who have to receive them may not be aware of the 
 duties the men are working. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you mean that the men do not explain the duties they 
 are working upon ? 
 
 A. I am afraid the explanations receive but scant consideration. (Hear, 
 hear.) 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That is not my question. Do they, when giving explana- 
 tions which they are called upon to give, state the duties upon which they 
 are employed? 
 
 A. Probably they do ; but as a matter of fact these men are punished to 
 the same extent a^ other men. 
 
 Mr. Smith : And you mean to suggest that due consideration is not given 
 to their explanation? 
 
 A. It cannot be when they are punished to the same extent as other men. 
 I was only alluding to this mcidentally. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I quite understand ; I only wanted to know. 
 
 A. I aan not making a special point of it. Then again, in some offices, 
 such as the N.D.O. and the N.W.D.O., postmen on the floating staff are 
 employed to work sorters' vacancies. From the Departmental standpoint 
 these men are working superior duties, but we, tlie postmen of London, 
 do not concur in that opinion. We contend, on the contrary, that in many 
 respects our duties are identical with those performed by sorters, and that, 
 where these duties differ, those of the postmen are of the most responsible 
 character. I will not adopt the Deixirtmental view and contend that these 
 men, performmg duties classified as superior and involving, according to 
 the Departmental suijerstition, an increased responsibility should, on that 
 account, receive increased pay. I will content myself with pointing out 
 in this connection that tlie Department can, when convenient, disregard in 
 the matter of duties the anomalous distinction between sorter and postman, 
 although, at the same time, it does not forget to preserve the still more 
 anomalous disparity between their respective scales of remuneration. I 
 come now to the sphere in which the onerous nature of this increased share 
 of responsibility is most acutely felt, i.e., in performing delivery duties. 
 Eoughly speaking, there are two factors in the creation of this "increased 
 responsibility. These are — Increased risk of overlooking removals and walk 
 instructions ; increased danger of mis-delivery. With regard to the firsts — 
 the increased risk of overlooking removals and walk instructions — you will 
 IH'obably remember one evening in last summer visiting the E!C.D.0.. 
 upon which occasion what is termed a " walk-book " was shown to one of 
 you. You, will doubtless recollect the size of that book, and possibly you 
 may even recall tlie varied nature of the numerous instructions which it 
 contained. Our rule book informs us that we must make ourselves thor- 
 oughly acquainted with removals, orders, etc., and recent official notices 
 have stated that no excuse will be accepted for ignorance in this respect, 
 and that, as often as our walk is changed we are to make ourselves acquainted 
 with all the orders or removals conkiined in the new walk-book. But if this
 
 Floating Staff — Allowances, etc. 165 
 
 is a trying task to the ordinary postman. Low mucli more must it be so 
 to the men employed on the floating st;iff, who, changing day after day, 
 and often two or tliree times in one day, from one walk to another, always 
 having but a slight knowledge of these walks, and sometim»s even compelled 
 without instruction to deliver a walk entirely new to them, are nevertheless 
 held responsible for the due observance of these orders? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you any instance of a man being punished for not 
 knowing the removals on a walk upon which he has just been put? 
 
 A. I have an instance of a man pmiished for not knowing the removals. 
 
 Q. That is not what I ask, still, I will take your point. 
 
 A. I have an instance of a man being punished for that. A man named 
 Wolferton was punished with two hours' extra duty for delivering a letter 
 for a certain firm into a box on the ground floor, when the firm's box was 
 on tlie first floor. 
 
 Q. Had he worked that walk before? 
 
 A. Yes, very rarely ; but he was not acipiainted with the walk. He had 
 worked a good many walks in the interim. 
 
 Mr. Smith: Then he was on the floating staff? 
 
 A. Yes ; in the E.G. District. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: When did this haT)j)en? 
 
 A. Here is tlie paper — " For mis-delivering a letter, two hours' exrra duty." 
 This letter was simply put in the wrong box. 
 
 Q. I asked you the date? 
 
 A. It docs not say the date. I think it was about 18 months ago ; it 
 was not more than two years ago at any rate. It is not so much the work 
 we complam of as the fact that a conser[uence of reporting these things 
 against us is that they appear in the records, and when tlie officials are 
 looking over the book for a man's record, it is hardly possible for them to 
 understand whether he is on the floating staff or otherwise, and stripes and 
 increment are considered from that standpoint. Each record is a factor 
 in coming to a conclusion whether or not a man should have his increment 
 or stripes. That is the point I wish to urge. 
 
 Q. You have not given us a case which bears out your argument. You 
 told us in your evidence that a man was punished for mis-delivering letters 
 when on an entirely new walk? 
 
 A. Quite right, sir; and I will give you a case of tLat kind — a case of 
 a walk, served by a man who received no instructions and was punished, 
 although it was a new walk to him. It was a man named Farrant, and the 
 walk was in the City Road. His stri])e has Ijeen stopped, and he put it down 
 to the fact that he had mis-delivered a letter. Of course, I cannot say if it 
 was so. It has been overdue six months. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What is that ca.se? ' 
 
 A. It is the case of a loss of stripe being inflicted for a man working 
 a walk the wrong way, and causing a delay in the delivery of the corres- 
 pondence, which, I believe, is suiScient to justify the loss of stripe. This 
 man was never on the walk before. There was no one in the office to give 
 him instructions, and it was entirely left in his hiinds to dispose of the 
 correspondence the best way he could. His name was Farrant, and he was 
 in the E.C.D.O. 
 
 The Chairman: What is the date? 
 
 A. I have not the date. It must be recent. The stripe was due in March 
 last year, and it has been stopped, for other men have received theirs 
 .since. One man whose stripe was due on Sept. 29 has got his, so it must 
 be stopped. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Was no punishment given at the time? 
 
 A. No ; but he was severely cautioned. I have a case of a man being 
 punished. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Oh, that is quite enough.
 
 ICr, n. Symes, E.C.D.O. 
 
 Witness : Imagine the difficulty experienced by a man on a walk with 
 M'hich he is imperfectly acquainted sorting his General Post delivery at 
 the rate of about 30 letters a minute, with no time to overhaul his work, 
 and with tlie additional distractions of impaid ajid registered letters, 
 in duly remembeiing removals, re-directing letters, and obeying special 
 instliuctions concerning speci6ed firms. The character of these special 
 instiuctions is varied, such as orders to deliver letters to tlie care of certain 
 persons other than those to whom they are addressed, to deliver them in 
 certain boxes in specified offices, or to avoid crossing the correspondence 
 of two persons or firms whose namas are identical. In this latter connec- 
 tion an instance, and not by any means a rare one, came under my own 
 notice a short time ago. In Sun Street, Finsbury, there are two firms 
 whose correspondence is frequently directed. "Jacobs, Sun Stre£t, Fins- 
 bury," without any indication of the particular Jacobs for which it is in- 
 teiided. Their letters were, in consequence, frequently crossed, and some 
 bad feeling seeming to exist between the firms, several postmen who have 
 exercised their discretion and delivered the correspondence wrongly, as it 
 afterwards turned out, to the firm they had believed it to be intended for, 
 have been reported for their trouble. En passant, I may mention an extra- 
 ordhiary example of official unreasonableness which arose from this incident. 
 vShortly after these occurrences a letter arrived addressed as before, " Jacobs, 
 Sun Street, Finsbury." Tlie man into whose hands it came, not knowing 
 under the circumstances what else to do, endorsed it as insufficiently ad- 
 dressed. To his surprise, a few days later, he was called upon to explain 
 why he had <lone so — an instance of the sweet reasonableness of official 
 procedure. Of course this has nothing to do with the case of the floating 
 staff. However, to return to my instance, a man suddenly placed on this 
 walk to fill a vacancy would almost certainly commit some mistake in 
 such a matter as this, and in consequence be reported. Being reported means 
 either punishment by the imposition of extra duty or a caution. In either 
 case the matter stands in the ofiicial records, and when the granting of 
 increments, stripes, promotion, etc., is being considered, this kind of thing 
 is a determining factor in the calculation. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose there was some rule in tlie Department under 
 which Mr. Jacobs should have had his letter? 
 
 A. There was no rule- at that time. 
 
 Q. But the man was reported for departing from the rule? 
 
 A. Our point is not so much that the man gets punished but that the 
 matter appears in the office records. It is like a continually dropping stone. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You mean like water continually dropping on a stone? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I beg your pardon. I am not used to this sort of thing. 
 Now with regard to the second factor in the creation of this exti'a respon- 
 sibility, viz., the increased danger of mis-delivery. You will remember 
 I have already pointed out that a man, after sorting his General Post, or, 
 I may add, his 8.15 p.m. delivery at the average rate of about 30 letters 
 per minute, frequently has no time to overhaul his work before leaving the 
 office. The comparative infrequency of mis-deliveries under such circum- 
 stances, in my opinion reflects great credit upon the postmen as a body, 
 ])ut the risk incurred is obvious. But the postman who is regularly at- 
 tached to one walk is in this respect to some extent safeguarded by an 
 automatic correctness in sorting his delivery, engendered by the habit of 
 dealing with the same names and streets, and by the fact that his familiarity 
 with the relative positions of the houses and streets served by him makes it 
 possible for him to deal with his work in the most regular and methodical 
 manner. Not so with the man employed on the floating staff. In his case 
 the risk of mis-delivery is increased a thousandfold by his necessarily vague 
 acquaintance with these details. More especially in the disposal of regis- 
 tered correspondence is this increased risk incurred. Frequently a man 
 hag from 20 to 40 registered letters, which he ties up with his ordinary
 
 Floating Staff — AlloAvance?, etc. 167 
 
 work. It is comparatively easy for him, in the stress of duty, with an 
 imperfect acquaintance with the names and addresses, to cross or mis- 
 deliver one of these registers, thus causing him great worry and annoyance, 
 and in the event of the register being, as is quite possible, altogether lost, 
 he will become an object of suspicion to the authorities, who, knowing they 
 pay the man wages inadequate to his needs and duties, naturally, if the 
 register contain valuables, as is frequently the case, and if the man be 
 Unable — as in such a case he almost certainly would be — to render a clear 
 account of the occurrence, come to the conclusion that the man must be 
 watched, and when being watched under such circumstances the most inno- 
 cent acts are viewed from a prejudiced standpoint, and it is thus ea-sy, 
 wit]iout being able to commit a man, for the officials to become convinced 
 of his dishonesty. From time to time men are dismissed from the Service 
 on suspicion. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you any instance of a man being dismissed from the 
 Service on suspicion? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; certainly, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any man having been dismissed on mere suspicion? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; that at any rate was the reason given for it. A man named 
 Morris in the E.C.D.O. was so dismissed 18 months ago. I do not know 
 what was the cause of it. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Was suspicion the ground alleged by the Department 
 for the dismissal? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. That is the only reason we have heard. How far such 
 circumstances as those of which I have spoken contribute to these dis- 
 missals, it is, of course, difficult for me to say, as in such cases the De- 
 partment keeps all details strictly secret. In the Registered Letter Branch 
 of the G.P.O. sorters receive, in addition to a wage considerably larger than 
 that of postmen, allowances varying from 3s. to 10s. per week, solely 
 because they are intrusted with valuable register correspondence. I do not 
 complain of their receiving this allowance, because I believe that the 
 nature of the duties fully justifies it, but I should like to point out that 
 every reason which can be urged in its support c<in also be urged with 
 greatly increased force as atfording gi'ound for extending this concession 
 to the postmen's floating staff. In so far as the receij^t of registered corres- 
 pondence is concerned, the responsibility of sorter and postman is equal. 
 They both give in exchange for this con-espondence a receipt to jjersong 
 employed in the Post Office, for the accuracy of every detail of which they 
 are held responsible. But here the equal responsibility ends, for in the 
 disposal of his work the sorter has the advantage of receiving, in exchange 
 for every letter, a receipt from a man in imiform, the receipt containing 
 the man's name and number. Thus the sorter is sure that, should the letter 
 be subsequently inquired after, he can — the man to whom he has given 
 the letter being in the Postal Service, and consequently easily traced — 
 clear himself. But the postman who is delivering a walk strange to him 
 is compelled to give these same letters to persons aksolutely unknown to 
 him, and having no connection with the Service, merely because they 
 happen to be somewhere on the premises to which these letters are ad- 
 dressed. But these persons may be parties in a fraud, of which the post- 
 man would become the victim. Viewed in this light, the fact of the post- 
 man on floating staff duties receiving no allowance corresponding with that 
 enjoyed by the sorter, to compensate him for his obviously great respon- 
 sibility in connection with the disposal of registered letters, is a decided 
 anomaly. I will now read a statement furnished me by one of the floating 
 staff, wliich shows clearly my statement concerning the rate at which walks 
 are prepared for delivery, and the insufficient time to examine tlie work, 
 bearing in mind the dangers to which the floating staff are exjjosed from
 
 168 H. Symes, E.C.D.O. 
 
 easily commitfced mistakes, tSie committal of wliich may have serious con- 
 secjuences on their present or future position in tlie Service. 
 
 On February 1st, 1895, whilst workuig a vacancy on Lombard Street 
 walk, I delivered a registered letter from Germany at the offices of the 
 Hong Kong Bank on the ground floor, instead of leaving it at the Anglo- 
 Austrian Bank on the first floor, to which it was addressed. The corres- 
 pondence which these two banks receive by this mail is similar in appear- 
 ance, and I unfortunately threw the letter off in the wrong place. Hence 
 the mis-delivery. However, I obtained the usual signature, the mistake not 
 being noticed by the head messenger who took the letter. About a week 
 afterwards I was called upon to give an explanation, which I gave, and some 
 time later I was cautioned and reprimanded in severe terms, and warned 
 as to the future. I naturally took this to be my punishm^ent, and con- 
 cluded that the case was settled. I was mistaken, however, for in the 
 following September, seven months later, I was called upon to sign the 
 order book, containing another severe reprimand, caution, warning, etc., 
 together with instructions to the effect that I was to be punished with four 
 hours' extra duty, and the informatioa that the letter had been lost, without 
 explaining how, and that the Department had paid 50 francs indemnity. 
 A stripe was due to me in March, 1895, but as I have not yet received it, 
 I prisume that it is stopped. (This is similar to Farrant's case. Other men 
 have received stripes which were due at a later date.) Thus, for a mistake 
 which it was so easy in the hurry of duty to commit, I was twice repri- 
 manded, punished with four hours' extra duty, and my stripe has been 
 stopped — a loss of £2 12s. per annum. Boyle, E.C.D.O. 
 
 This case will serve to illustrate to you the possible serious effects of the 
 grave responsibility which, in a greater or lesser degree, is thrust upon 
 every member of the floating staff. 
 
 The Chairman : Would you be satisfied if I had the rest of your evidence 
 printed without now reading it? I have given you a long, long time. I do 
 not think you luve drawn it as short as you might have done. 
 
 A. I have cut it shorter than my case justified — much .shorter. 
 
 The Ciiairman : Well, we Avill print what remains of it. You will not 
 have the chance of V)eing pulled about over it. 
 
 Witness : But if I read it I might have the chance of making some addi- 
 tional points. One never laiows. (Laughter.) 
 
 The remainder of the statement, as follows, was taken as read : — 
 
 Witness : I ' will at this point, with your permission, make a slight 
 digression in order to draw your attention to the claim put forward by the 
 men performing deliveries by sjiecial register carfcs. I have here a tabu- 
 lated statement of the numbers of registered letters delivei-ed by these carts 
 in the E.G. during the week ending Feb. 22nd, 189flt. A reference to this 
 statement will show that the number of registered letters thus disposed 
 of is frequently very large, and as the places to which these letters are dir- 
 ected are, for the most part, banks and large commission agents, and 
 consequently this registered correspondence is both very bulky and very 
 valuable, it will be readily perceived that these deliveries involve a great de;il 
 ot arduous labour and heavy responsibility. This duty, commencing at 
 7.30, and finishmg about 9 a.m., is performed under great stress. The 
 bags have to be sealed, signed for, checked by several different persons, 
 arranged for delivery, and often delay is occasioned through the proper 
 persons not being at hand to receive and sign for them at the places to 
 V/'hich they are addressed. Consequently hurry, strain, and heavy respon- 
 sibility are involved in the disposal of these bags. The sorters who have 
 the first handling of these valuable and important letters receive, and 
 rightly, I think, a compensatory allowance, and it seems but fair that a 
 similar allowance should be granted to those who have them under their 
 charge outside tiie office, and who incur the additional responsibility of deliver-
 
 Floating Stuff — A]lowances, etc. 169 
 
 ing them to persons outside the Service. On these grounds I ask for your 
 careful consideration of tiieir claim. To return to the floating staff, I 
 have no less than eight instfinces in Vi-hicli tlies* register cart duties have 
 been performed by men on this staff, owing eitlier to a vacancy suddenly 
 arising, or to its being necessary, througli stress of work, to increase the 
 number of carts. Coming now to my t)hird point, viz., "The increased 
 risk of ill-health owing to the irregular habits caused througli frequent 
 changes in the hours of attendance," I will preface my argument thereon 
 by a few extracts from the evidence laid before this Committee by Dr. 
 Wilson on Friday, Dec. 6th, 1895. I quote from the " Telegraph Chronicle " 
 of Dec. 13th: — 
 
 " The Chairman : Then you find the greatest amount of sickness amongst 
 classes in which the men are younger? 
 
 " Witness : Yes ; especially when tliey are engaged on spUt duties. 
 
 " The Chairman : Do you think that split duties affect young men more 
 than others? 
 
 " Witness : Yes ; I feel sure they do. My opinion is that the sick 
 aV)sence is higher in the class of yoimg men who do split duties because it 
 affects their health more than it does the health of older men. My point 
 is, that the split duties given to the men up to the age of 25 do affect their 
 health. 
 
 " The Cliairman : You do not think there is any particular predisposed 
 cause of phthisis in any of the various classes of employment in the Post 
 Office? 
 
 " Witness : I think the split duties Imve a tendency to affect the record 
 in regard to health. 
 
 " The Chairman : So far as we have got, however, you attribute the 
 really worst part of the remediable ill-heiilth in the Post Office to the exis- 
 tence of split duties? 
 
 "The Witness: I do, sir. My view is that split duties are not conducive 
 to good health. They are arduous and trying even to the strongest. That 
 is obvious to anybody. 
 
 " The Chairman : Do you see much sickness attributable to ii-regularity 
 of meals? 
 
 " Witness : Of com-se irregularity, like excess, leads to ill-health if con- 
 tinued for any time." 
 
 Here Dr. Wilson clearly and emphatically states that split and early 
 morning duties, as well as irregularity in meals, are injurious to heaJth. 
 I tliink he might have added, if the duty be split up into tliree or four 
 attendances spread all over the day, it is obviously more injurious than two 
 attendances, as it deprives a man of rest. He might also liave added as a 
 factor in the creation of ill-health — irregularity in duties, and the consequent 
 variation in, and frequent insufficiency of hours of rest. Now the floating 
 staff, by its very nature, is compelled to suffer all these hardships in the 
 most intense degree. They are compelled to j)erform duties commencing at 
 5 a.m., or even sometimes earlier, and involving three attendances or more, 
 such attendances being in many instances so spread over the day as to 
 deprive them of mid-day rest, whilst at the same time compelling them 
 to work early and late— veritable slavery. And the character of the 
 changes in these duties prevents the statement made by Dr. Wilson con- 
 cerning the telegraphists — " That although a man's duty may vary con- 
 siderably in point of time, the time of taking food need not vary " — from 
 applying to them. For, when a man attends the office at 5 a.m., in most 
 cases it is necessary for him to leave home at 4. If he follows Dr. Wilson's 
 advice he would take a meal before leaving home. Should he go on with the 
 first delivery it will be 9 o'clock when he gets his breitkfast, Dr. Wilson's 
 interval — 5 hours — thus elapsing. But a man on the floating staff is fre- 
 quently during the course of a morning changed to another duty, as, for 
 example, the second delivery. This means 10 a.m. before it will be
 
 170 H. Symes, E.C.D.O. 
 
 possible for him to obtain breakfast, and, leaving out of count the difficulty he 
 will then experience in obtaining that breakfast, that makes an elapsing 
 period of six hours, during which he has been performing continuous labour 
 involving a large expenditure of energy. But it may be objected that it is 
 usually possible to obtuin 10 nunutes' interval during the course of the 
 morning, during which refreshment might be tciken. Tliat is -so, but first, 
 tl»e 10 minutes dwindles into 5, or even less, by the time refreshment has 
 been obtained, a liardly sufficient time ; and second, taking refreshment in 
 this interval is doing what Dr. Wilson strongly deprecates, i.e., cramming 
 two meals into a period of four liours. Take again some of the duties I 
 have quoted — for example those worked by Franipton. On 13th January 
 attending the office at 9.50 he would breakfast about 8 a.m. Attending 
 again at 12.50 p.m. he Avould dine about mid-day, with barely four hours' 
 interval. Attending at 5.55 p.m. he would take his tea about 4.30 p.m. 
 The next day attending at 5 a.m. he would breakfast at 4 a.m., and again 
 at 10 a.m., an interval of six hours; and as he attended again at 4 p.m. 
 he would have to dine about 2, leaving to chance all prospect of getting 
 tea. Again, a man is frequently summoned after performing a full day's 
 work to attend at 11 p.m. or midnight, in order to work a vacancy on the 
 night staff. Wliat sort of regularity in meal times and hours of rest can 
 be observed under such circumsfcmce^ ? These examples might be multiplied 
 to infinity, as will be perceived on examining the lists of duties submitted to 
 yon by various witnesses, all of which duties, as well as many others not 
 mentioned, are at various times performed by members of the floating 
 staff. The erratic nature of the demands upon these men's services, the 
 natural consequence of the variable character of the vacancies they are 
 called upon to fill, involving, as it does, wide divergencies in the amount 
 of time elapsing between meals, and in the respective hours of the day 
 at which these meals can be taken, as well as the continual changes in the 
 hours of attendance, rendering their periods of rest irregular, and even to 
 a greater extent than with the general body of postmen insufficient, ob- 
 viously constitute a serious menace to tlieir health. And to this must be 
 added the fact that, with very few exceptions, the men on the floating staff 
 are considerably beneath Dr. Wilson's 25 years of age. My fourth point 
 is — " The difficulty of keeping a clear record for punctuality owing to these 
 changes." If it he — as it undoubtedly is — difficult for a man whose day's 
 duty regularly commences at 5 a.m. to keep up to the official standard 
 in this respect, this difficulty is considerably increased when the hours at 
 which the day's duty is commenced are continually changing. For instance, 
 I myself have for some years past regularly attended at 5 a.m. I have 
 i>i consequence become so used to preparing my alarm clock that it is 
 almost impossible for me to forget to do so. But a man whose use of the 
 alarm is irregular is much more likely to omit this. Or, again, a state 
 of nervous restlessness during sleep engendered by the continued, half- 
 unconscious dread of the morning, with its utter weariness and painful 
 endeavour to keep fully awake Ls, with tlae postmen on early morning duty, 
 what may be described as chronic nightmare, haunting, with the exception of 
 the middle period of his annual leave, his most profound slumbers. But it 
 is obvious to anyone who is in the slightest degree acquainted with the 
 character of these nervous phenomena that any cessation for a period of the 
 habit of early rising would greatly increase the tensity of the manifesta- 
 tions, as I myself have experienced after, for instance, a period of annual 
 leave, having on several occasions, after a fitful night's rest, finally fallen so 
 soundly asleep that the alarm only partly roused me, and, in consequence, 
 I have been under the necessity of understudying a running man in order 
 to reach the office in time. The floating staff duties mvohong, as I have 
 already shown, greatly differing hours of morning attendance, as well as 
 night duty, the men employed on that staff obviously run a greatly increased 
 ''isk of being late, with all its consequent danger of loss of stripes, incre-
 
 Floating Staff — Allowances, etc. 171 
 
 mer.ts, etc. My fifth contention — " That floating staff duties render the 
 disposal of the men's time when off duty a matter of considerable difficulty 
 and uncertainty " — needs, after what has preceded it, but little said in its 
 support. A man who but rarely knows whether his next day's duty will 
 commence at midnight, 5 a.m., 8 a.m., or 10 a.m., or at what time between 
 mid-day and 10 p.m. he is to finisli, is obviously precluded from making 
 those preliminary arrangements which are so necessary to either the useful 
 or pleasurable disposal of the off-duty time. Many men on the floating staff 
 have complained bitterly to me that for years they have been, in conse- 
 fjuence of these duties, deprived of that social intercourse which is so ne- 
 cessary and so welcome a relaxation from the monotonous performance of 
 their official duties. Others who find their relaxation in studious pursuits — 
 and amongst postmen there are many sucli — complain of the difficulty of 
 pursuing their studies in a methodical, orderly manner in consequence of their 
 duties rendering it impossible either to regularly attend classes or to make 
 arrangements amongst themselves for mutual assistance. Life under such 
 circumstances becomes a monotonous, grinding, tedious round, unsweetened 
 by social intercourse, unillumined by the light of knowledge, and can only 
 be fitly described as slavery. I think I have demonstrated that the work 
 performed by these men is of a special character, and I will now quote a 
 te^v instances in wliich such work is already rewarded with a special duty 
 allowance. The T.P.O. sorters receive allowances to recompense them for 
 increase of expenditure and inconvenience, but I have already shown that 
 this increased expense and inconvenience is incurred by the postmen's floating 
 staff also. The registered letter sorters, G.P.O., receive allowances in 
 recognition of the responsibility incuiTed in dealing with valuable corres- 
 pondence, but the postmen's floating stiff, who deliver this same corres- 
 pondence under circumstances which, as I have shown, seriously increase 
 the risk and responsibility, receive nothing. This is a distmctly anomalous 
 condition of things, which Incomes worse wlien we consider that these same 
 floating staff duties ai'e in Liverpool, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, and 
 many other provincial towns, rewarded with allowances varying from three 
 to seven shillings per week, whilst in London, the Metropolis, where the 
 mconveniences attendant upon the performance of these duties are neces- 
 sarily felt in the most extreme degree, not a single cent is thus paid. The 
 existence of this staff is an absolute necessity ; the men eniploye<l on it 
 are chosen for their special abilities and general adaptiveness, and, in 
 accordance with the oft-quoted principle of paying for work according to 
 its quality, I ask that these men, whose wages range between 18s. and 
 24s. per week, should have that sum supplemented by a special duty 
 allowance similar to that given in tlie cases I have quoted. That, gentle- 
 men, is my case on behalf of the London floating staff. 
 The Committee adjoui-ned until Monday.
 
 WILLIAM MORGAN SHEPHARD, Xew Cross. 
 
 TnK Case for the Lon'don Sfpeunumeraiues. 
 
 WESTJriNSTER, Monday, March 9, 1896. 
 
 Lord ffweeJinoutli's Commiltee on the grievances of Post Office employees 
 resumed its sitting on Monday, March 9th, there l)eing present: — The Right 
 Hon. Lord Tweedmouth (Chairman), Sir Francis Mowatt, K.C.B., Sir .Arthur 
 Godley, K.C.B., Spencer Walpole, Esq., H. Llewellyn-Smith, Esq., and 
 Robert Bruce, Esq., Secretary. 
 
 William Morgan Shephard, the first witness called, wag examined as fol- 
 lows : — 
 
 The Chairman : You are a supernumerary postman ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. How long have vou been in that position? 
 
 A. Five years last l)ecember. 
 
 Q. In what capacity did you begin your service? 
 
 A. I was an auxiliary in the first instance. 
 
 Q. Then you became a supernumerary? 
 
 A. No, my lord, I becalne an unestablished postman at a station;iry wage 
 of 18s. 
 
 Q. What wage do you now receive? 
 
 A. £1 Os. 3d. per week. 
 
 Q. Why that amount? 
 
 A. I will explain that later on ; the 3d. was given in accordance with an 
 order made on the loth June last, and I believe it is a decimal fraction of 
 what we will get in June next to make us up another 1h. a week, so that 
 we shall then be getting 21s. 
 
 Q. Are you not on a scale with a minimum of 18s., rising by Is. to 26s.? 
 
 A. No ; that was in accordance with the last order dated 13th June last. 
 As we first signed for and undertook the duty, the maximum attained next 
 December would have been 21s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Your maximum is now increased to 26s. 
 
 A. I have heard so. 
 
 Q. The 3d. is paid rather as an adjustment of increment? 
 
 A. Yes, I understand so. 
 
 The Chairman. You have also a fortnight's annual leave, have you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And half-pay when on sick leave? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You have no pension? 
 
 A. No ; no pension ; no stripes ; no giutuities ; no bonus ; and no hopes of 
 any kind beyond what I have stated. 
 
 Q. And no share of Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. Yes, if we are fortunate enough to secure a good vralk where they arc 
 obtainable. 
 
 Q. What do you consider your own share of Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. That would vary according to one's luck in having a gootl walk. 
 
 Q. But I mean your own experience?
 
 The Case for the London Superoumierarics. 175 
 
 A. I am taking my seniority under an old dispensation, but when the next 
 revision comes on I shall probably be knocked out of that. 
 
 Q. That is not the question I am asking. I want to know what do you 
 calculate to be the value of your own share of Christmas boxes? 
 A. £7 10s. 
 Q. Per annum? 
 
 A. Yes. I propose now to proceed with my statement. 
 Q. I ought to say that we must really finish with the postmen's evidence 
 to-day, and if any of you are not heard to-day, I shall simply have to tell 
 you that I cannot hear you, as we have already given a very large share 
 of the time to the postmen, so please be as short as you can in any state- 
 ment you have to make. 
 
 A. I sliall be very short, indeed. In .subn'iitting the case for the super- 
 numerary posiimen, if I do not deal with it at the length it deserves, I hope 
 that its brevity will not in any way detract from its gravity and seriousness. 
 About the end of 1889 a numl)er of auxiliaries in the various districts of 
 London were asked to take on a new class called the "unestabhshed," i.e., 
 to do a regular staff man's duties of 8 hours, 12 days' holiday, and 18s. per 
 week wages. In November, 1890, a ff)rm was issued to this class by the 
 Controller (Mr. R. C. Tonibs), on behalf of the P.M.G., stating that llieir 
 emplojonent as unestablished postmen must cease, and giving them a fort- 
 night's notice and an offer to joui the new class called " supernumerairy post- 
 men " (unestabli.s!ied) on the following terms, viz. — " The attendance required 
 will be about 8 hours — between 5 a.m. and 11 p.m. Wages 18s. per week, 
 to rise Is. every 2 years to 21s., provided you give satisfaction in the per- 
 formance of your duty, and that your conduct is good. The first rise to 
 19s. after tlie completion of 4 yearsf continuous service, if that should occur 
 before you have been 2 years on the supernumerary class. Annual leave of 
 12 daj^s (working). Medirml attendance in sickness, and half-jiay durmg ab- 
 sence. Uniform in every respect similar to a staff man. You are also given 
 to understand that in your future emplo,yment you acquii-e no claim to be 
 appointed a permanent Civil servant, having passed no literary or medical 
 examination. And if you can obtain other employment with advantage to 
 yourself you should do so, and wlien j'our services are discontinued, which 
 they may be at any time, you will not be entitled to pension, gratuity, or 
 compensation." As far as we know, there are very few of this class — some 
 50 or 60 — in the whole of London, and only tliose mafle in 1890 and 1891 
 are in the Service, as the class is rclundant, and as we die or leave, the 
 vacancy so caused is made a staff appointment. 
 
 The Chairman : It seems an though the Department in making you this 
 offer did it rather by way of comi>as:sion than otherwise? 
 
 A. I do not take it as au}^ compassion at all. 
 
 Q. Was not the alternative to turn you adrift altogether. You were not 
 qualified any of you by examination for the post of regular postmen? 
 
 A. I will show you later how, in my case, the ground has been shifted. 
 
 Q. What was the difficulty in your case? 
 
 A. I was too old. 
 
 Q. Either the men were too old for appointment or else they failed to pass 
 the exam.ination, is not that tlie case? 
 
 A. Yes, some of them failed to pass some examination, and some were too 
 old, but others were too short.. 
 
 Q. In stature? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. They do not come up to the Departmental requirements? 
 
 A. Yes ; but some in our office failed in that respect. 
 
 Q. Then all belonging to your class were men v,]in for some reason or 
 another failed to come up to the standard prescribed by the Department as 
 necessary tor the appointment of tlie regular staff? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so. 
 
 Q. Then it was rather by way of compassion that you were kept on at all?
 
 174 William Morgan .Siifjmiauij, New Cross. 
 
 A. No, sir. At the end of 1889 a revision took place wliieh reduced rny 
 v^age as an auxiliary froni. 16.s. to lis. I ])ad V)een doing 3 duties at 16s. 
 I had a shoj) at that tiine, but there was ])lenty of overtime, etc., and while 
 I was putting it in, the shop was allowed to fall into a failure. I was fre- 
 (juently called upon, as men wlio know the walks are, to do other duties, 
 and ni}^ wages were made up to 27s. per week. I liad liad 16s. for 3 duties ; 
 I did the G.P., the <lciivery at 10 in tlic nioniing, and one at 8 at riiglit, 
 so tliat I luul from about 1 o'clock in the dny till 8 at niglit to do my own 
 v.oik. But when a revision took place, mo.st of these superfluous duties of 
 auxiliaries were made into staff appointments, so that I was pulled down to 
 lis. 
 
 Q. You had then only 2 duties? 
 
 A. Yes. Being a man with a family 1 was disposed to accept the new 
 terms offered in JSTovemlter, 1890, as representing an immediate and perma- 
 nent rise with the idea in my own mind that it might be a stepping-stone to 
 tlie establishment. I thought so then. I think so now, anrl I don't despair 
 of it even lyet. 
 
 Q. But you were told very distinctly in the form which you signed that 
 it would not be such a stepping-stone to the establishment. 
 
 A. Other men have been told so just as distinctly in former years. 
 
 Q. But you signed this form and accepted the specified conditions? 
 
 A. I have liad 9 j-ears service as an auxiliary, 
 
 Q. I opii not denying that. In signing this you accepted the conditions of 
 the Department, one of which was that this appointment was not a stepping- 
 stone to the permanent established ser\dce. 
 
 A. Nevertheless, we cherished the idea that it might become so, as we had 
 seen others advance before us. Our grievances are: — (1) Insufficient living 
 wage : to obtain our maximum of S^d. per hour, we must have done at least 
 8 yeaxs' continuous service. And that is %d. per hour less as is laid down 
 liy the "Raikes" re\dsion for unestablished labour. The present maximum 
 (5,'d.) is less than the recognised pay of the docker, and it is almost impos- 
 sible for us, as responsible servants of the Crown, to do our duties as citizens 
 and parents, and we therefore think that our present position is not one to 
 be coveted. 
 
 Mr. Walix)le : Now, I suppose you wish to amend that, as you know the 
 maximum of the class is 26s. ? 
 
 A. Yes, but I will deal with that later on. I acknowledge the increase. 
 There is an unfortunate man in our head district office who received £1 Os. 
 3d. a week, a^id he pays 9s. for rent. He lives close to the office; he has 
 5 of a family, and has had 30 j^ears' service ; he failed in the examination 
 through not being alile to pass something m arithmetic. There are also three 
 men in West Brompton of 23 years' service who are in a similar position, 
 and they get no Christmas boxes. This means slow starvation for most of 
 us. When quite one-third of oiu- money goes in rent, it means where there 
 is a young family food in the shape of bread and treacle, or boiled rica 
 for a oliange for dinner, dui"ing the week ; this is not quite the state of 
 tilings that should be expected in the case of a .responsible man, who has 
 given faith Jul service, no matter whether he is a supernumerary or a regular 
 postman, for we all wear Wie same uniform and perform the same duties, 
 and have the same responsibilities and penalties, so tliat I think we are not 
 only the worst paid, but the worst treated class in the Service. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Why do the men you have mentioned not get Christmas 
 boxes? 
 
 A. The walks go by seniority, and owing to their position they are given 
 tlie worst walks. 
 
 Q. Where there is not much chance of getting Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. True. We are debarred from .good conduct stripes through no fault 
 of our own, and tlie public, not understanding that we are not entitled to' 
 thera, think that they are withheld from us for mLsconduct, etc., and, of . 
 course, di'aw their own conclusions wlion they observe senior men without
 
 The ^Case for the Lond )a .Suparnumerarie.^. 175 
 
 them. We consider that no age or condition of service should prevent tt 
 suj^mumerary receiving good conduct stripes. We cannot see that good 
 conduct stripes should depend upon any conditions as to age or failing to 
 jmss examinations, medical or otherwise ; as I have been getting on for 16 
 j'oars in the same office, ajid everybody knows me very well, you will under- 
 stand that since we wear exactly the same clothes as established men unlike 
 the auxiliaries, and that we wear the red collar in the summer, it is a com- 
 mon reproach to us and destroys our self-resi)eot that we cannot get stripes. 
 People ask us often why we don't get siripes, but we cannot argue with 
 the public, and explain to them the ins and outs of the service, or say: "I 
 am just an inch too short, or a fortnight too old, or I could not do a fourth 
 division sum." As one previous witness suggested, that the strijies of his 
 class might be perpendicular, so I might suggest that we might have silver 
 gtripes, if you like to denote that we are an intermediate class between the 
 auxiliaries and the established men. (Laughter.) I hoj>e that in this 
 matter something practical will be done for us. I do not say that a super- 
 numerary postman hag all the vii'tues, but he has not all the vices either. 
 (Hear, hear.) Our duties are exactly the same as the staff men, some being 
 attached to the parcel duties, otliers do the sorting and railway districts side 
 by side with the staff men ; and as our 8 hours' duty extends over nearly 
 12 hours, we have no opportunity of augmenting our wages, as some of us 
 have to come in 4 or 5 times a dnj. In the cajs© of the parcel men at the 
 Depot, they have to pay railway and tram fares, wliich on their small wage 
 is to them a serious matter. One of my colleagues dispatches a delivery and 
 a 9 o'clock collection, that is making of bags, register bills, etc., which a 
 regular man on the staff gdts a 3s. allowance for, but my colleague, because 
 he is a supernumerary, gets inothing extra, and some of our men have to 
 come in 7 times a day. 
 
 The Chairman : Have to come 7 times a day into the office ? 
 
 A. Yes, a man in West Brompton does that. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that he has 7 duties? 
 
 A. Yes, 2 deliveries and 5 collections. At Rlackheath there Ls a man of 
 our class doing 2 deliveries and 4 collections, and another man in the South- 
 Eastern District Office who has 8 collections, and has had 30 years' service ; 
 he comes in 8 times, and if he is late for any one of them he is liable to 
 have his mcrement stopjje'd, and to isuffer p-enalties. These duties, if paid 
 art) the auxiliary rate, would represent 27s. per week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wlien you speak of a man doing 8 collections, you mean 
 that it is one continuous duty, do you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. One continuous duty comprismg 8 collections? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. That is not a bad duty, is it? But rather a good one as duties go. 
 
 A. Yes, in some respects, but a man has got 8 times the chance of being 
 late to another man's four chances. 
 
 Q. My point is that instead of representing 8 split duties it is a continuous 
 duty? 
 
 A. Certainly, sir. If the men at West Brompton were paid according to 
 the Raikes' revision for an established or auxiliary labour he would get 
 2s. 6d. for the five collections, and 2s. each for the two deliveries, making 
 an addition of 4s. 6d., but we are not so well off. 
 
 The Chairman : You will come very near that when the maximum of 26s. 
 is leached? 
 
 A. That is only a boon recently granted. I think since this Committee 
 came into existence, it has taken la little bit of the wind out of my sails. 
 (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think I am right in saying that it was done before this 
 Committee was thought of. 
 
 A. Tliis Committee was appointed on May 17th, and on the 13th June this 
 booil was given to Us. As to the loss of seniority, being supernumeratips,
 
 170 William Morgan Siiei'mard, New Cross, 
 
 the most serious thing is that we have no rank, all staff appointments ranking 
 senior to us. We are at the bottom of the list, both as regards holidaya 
 and the choosing of duties. It means as to holidays, we have to take them 
 either at the begimiing of March or the end of October, and never take a 
 lioliday in summer. Ajid it is rather hard, too, to see young men of only 
 a few weeks' ser\'ice pick duties in front of us, leaving us the worst and 
 liardest walks ; and m the case of reserve men witliout walks, they have to 
 ■work vacancies, and receive no Christmas gratuities. We should not mind 
 all this if there was only a ])ossibility of being promoted to the staff, but 
 there is none. We only know that aft«r a long period of service, we have 
 still the certainty of the worst duty in the office. One of the unfortunate 
 supernumeraries in my own office commenced his holidays in February, and 
 in my own case I had to come back from mine in November. 
 Q. You get the last fortnight in October? 
 
 A. Yes, I should not get very nmch sunburnt then, and there are no ex- 
 cursions running into the country either in February or November. 
 Q. But you would start rather sunburnt. (Laughter.) 
 A. It is a di-awliack having to start when the excursion season is over, 
 and we have to pay the full fare, which gives us very little chance of ever 
 getting outside of London. 
 
 Mr. Walj)ole : Your unfortunate colleague commenced his holiday in 
 February. 
 A. Yes, he commenced on the 22nd February. 
 Q. Tlien he finished last Saturday. 
 A. Yes, and he is not sunburnt, I assure you. 
 Q. It was rather unfortunate weather last week for the purpose. 
 A. It seems rather an unjust thing that while others are by their seniority 
 climbing upward, we are left struggling, and are rather going backwards ; 
 indeed, I have only to outlive my juniors in order to get the worst duty in 
 the office and lose all Cliristmas boxes, which is certainly enough to destroj^ 
 a man's spirits. I am myself on mi-rbiight duty, and have been so for over 
 3 j-ears witli no hoije, as far as I can see. of ever getting ajn evening off in 
 the week, although I should like to have the pleasure of going to a meeting 
 sometimes, or of enjo\Tng some personal recreation. I arn. however, debarred 
 from that. There is no chance for me, I have always to be on duty at night, 
 Tlie Chairman : What is your duty ? 
 
 A. I come on at 1 o'clock in the day and remain until 3 in the afternoon ; 
 then I go on about 6 until 10 minutes to 8, and tlien go on at 9 o'clock. I am 
 responsible for district sorting in London, and I go on again at midnight, 
 finishing a little after 12. 
 
 Q. You do that every day regularly? 
 
 A. Every day bar Saturday. It is a burning question with us, because 
 we have had our rights to seniority,, but now the system is very much cut 
 up in the various districts of London. In the Waterloo depot they pick their 
 holidays and their duties — that is, the supernumerary men do just the same 
 as the establislied men, and so it is in Brompton, but in other districts they 
 are served as we are. We know there is no chance of our getting a, better 
 duty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would you be satisfied if we let you rank above new ap- 
 pointments when the men below you fall out? 
 
 A. Certainly ; we make th?it a great point. We think that all men ap- 
 pointed after November, 1889. should take duties and holidays junior to us. 
 Q. I will look into that with the Controller, and see what we can do. 
 Witness — Two years ago, the men m the S.E. District made an appeal to 
 our Postmaster, that, being regular men. and having staff duties, we should 
 liave seniority in picking duties and holidays. These concessions were granted 
 us, and remained in force until about three months ago, when, on the ap- 
 plication of the junior men to a new Postmaster, it was decided to reintro- 
 duce the old order of things. We pray that we may be restored to our 
 seniority. I may point out tha our suxjernumerary colleagues at the Parcel
 
 The Case for the London Supernumeraries. 177 
 
 Depot (Waterloo) are allowed their seniority as regards duties' and holidays 
 the same as the stafif, and in addition, they change their duties with estab- 
 lished men month about, tlius giving them a- chance of recreation, which 
 is denied to us. In times of sickness, another hardsliip is added to our lot, 
 as only half-pay is given us, and at a time when, rii fact, we want more. 
 It is in my own personal experience and knowledge tliat men have been out 
 on duty when they should have been in bed, l)ut were compelled to remain 
 on duty for fear of being put on the sick list and on half-pay. Seeing we 
 have passed a medical examination, and have the same work and weather to 
 go through as the established class, we ask for the same advantages as they 
 enjoy. With regard to medical examinations it has been suggested, I think, 
 that v,e are not supposed to cass an examination, but I must tell you that 
 3 colleagues and myself were stripped naked before a doctor and were passed 
 as fit. I was at that time 42 years of age, and I think it was a little almost 
 too bad to strip me, aJnd then tell me I was too old to pass, because they 
 previously knew my age, as my birth certificate had been sent in. 
 
 The Chairman : A good many of your class have not passed the metlicjil 
 examination. 
 
 A. A few, but I think there are fewer rejected on that ground tlian 
 on almost any other ; sometimes it is a question of age or of height, and in 
 some cases it may be a literary difficulty, but very few because they fail to 
 pass the doctor. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that they have all passed the doctor? 
 
 A. No, I am only stating my own case and those of certain colleagues 
 who are known to me. 
 
 Q. But perhaps your case is rather an exception. 
 
 A. Possil)ly, but there are four of us in our- office who have passed. 
 
 Q. You say the fact of your age was known before you were examined? 
 
 A. Yes, I had sent ui my certifibate, and we were vaccinated ; two of us 
 had bad arms, but we were in clubs and got sick pay, although one unfortu- 
 nate man had not the same advantage, and had to work on. Tliere was one 
 of our class at West Brompton who was laid up with a bad foot contracted 
 while on duty, but only lialf-pay was given to him while away from duty. 
 I also recollect a case of an officer who died on the 12th January last, aged 
 only 31 ; he was taken ill on duty with pneumonia. Another man found 
 him standing up against a fence imable to proceed with his duty, and his 
 colleague took his duty. He lay a week ill, then died, without receiving 
 his money or anj-thing, although lie providentially belonged to a Wandsworth 
 club, and diis mother got £38 from it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Did he not ^et his half-pay? 
 
 A. Yes, but only for 1 week. Owing to the Christmas pressure he could 
 not take his usual meals at home, and in the bad M^eather of last winter he 
 contrajcted 'this' pneumonia whilst on duty. There is no mistake a,bout the 
 case. He was a. comparatively young fellow. One of tJie many hardships 
 of our class is that we are entitled to no pension or bonus ; all other branches 
 of the Service doing a full day's duty have one in prospect, but v/e, receiv- 
 ing the lea-st wage of ajl, have no mea,ns to save for old age, and when we 
 are past work, notwithstanding our long and faithful service to the State, 
 we are turned out on the world either to jom the miserable army of unem- 
 ployed, or to go to the workhouse as an expense to the ratepayers. It does 
 seem hard that ha,ving the lowest wage, we have no jiension, seeing that 
 those in the Service who have the highest wa.ges get afterwards a good pen- 
 sion. Our only hope Ls that we may die before we become too old to dis- 
 charge our duty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You know the difficulty in the way is the law ; I fear we 
 have no power to give you pensions, as you ha<ve liot passed the Civd Ser- 
 vice examination. 
 
 A. We haveJiad no chance of passing that; unfortunately, I seem to have 
 been bom too soon ; I am just reminded that there is a compassionate fund 
 of which we might get some benefit.
 
 178 William Mo-rgan Shepiiaed, New Cross. 
 
 Q. I wae only touching on yonr point as to the difficulty of granting you 
 pensions. It is not in the power of the Department. 
 
 A. Witli regard to myself and my 3 colleagues in the office, if I could by 
 an}' means have taken a little bit of their youth, and they could have taken 
 a little bit of nij' height, we might all 4 have passed ajiid got on the estab- 
 lisliment ; if we were combined, I dare say we could pass, that ia if you 
 struck an average. (Laughter.) In a letter from the Right Hon. Arnold 
 Moi'tey (late P.M.G.), dated General Post Office, 2nd February, 1893, he 
 says, in reference to our class^ " Some are past the prescribed limits of age, 
 or for other reasons are unable to pass for the establishment, but had the 
 Department possessed the power, they would long ago ha,ve been incorpor- 
 ated into tlie establLslnnent." But as to age, we had no chance for the staif. 
 The age lunit has, however, been altered to 32, Ijut to time-expired soldiers 
 only, who have served 12 y^jars with the colours. We beg most resj>ectfully 
 to ask, if it has been a/Tlerei for one class of the community, why should it 
 not apply to some of the most deserving Civil servants? Mr. Morley also, 
 in the same letter, mentioned that he was considering if it were not possiVjle 
 to procure for us some a<dvance in wages, but we heard nothing till the 28th 
 December last, when we received 7s. 1-^d. back money, being 3d. per week 
 rise from the 13tk June last, olnd we have also heard that we rise in future 
 Is. per year to a 26s. maximum. Twenty years ago, if a man was in his 
 25tli year lie liad no chance of jiassing, but that wa.s altered 20 years ago 
 to 30, which is just where I was put out, but now I see that by an order, 
 which must have been issued in the beginning of September, 1892, it 
 was provided that the maximum limit of age for a,ppointment as postmen or 
 porters should be extended from, 30 to 32, so as to a>dniit a number of time- 
 expired soldiers. In reading Mr. Morley's letter, one would imagine that 
 the age limit was. like the laws of the Medes and Persians, never to be 
 altereti. but it has Vjeen altered. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wliat was your age when you joined the Service? 
 A. 32 and three weeks. 
 
 Q. A little over 32. And then I am afraid you only joined as an auxil- 
 iary ? 
 
 A. Tliat was all, sir. 
 
 Q. And then you were 37 before you became a supernumerary postman? 
 A. I was more than that. Of course, new entrants should conform to all 
 the new regulations, but surely old servants who can show themselves able 
 to do all the duties of the junior men should have the option of joining the 
 establishment now. It would be a doubly serious thing for us if we are nob 
 I)ut upon the establishment, and if this Committee were to recommend the 
 abolition of Christmas boxes, and to prohibit these being solicited, as we 
 shall not share the advantage claimed by the staff of 2s. immediate rise. I 
 therefore desire to back up my colleague, Mr. Wilson, in asking that the 
 suj)ernumera'ry po.stmen should be allowed Is. per duty, and that if such 
 an officer has 2 collections, these should be counted as one duty. This is 
 the suggestion I throw out as a substitute for our Christmas boxes. Our 
 remedy for our grieTances is. that we shall at once be put on the staff, and 
 that our minimum shall be 24s. a week, and that our increment, sick pay, 
 and choice of duties be in every way the same as the established men. 
 The Chairman: Why do you select 24s. as the figure? 
 A. Because we are all adult men, and many of us haive families, .and if 
 we had risen at the rate of Is. a year, as we think we ought to have done, 
 we should have just about come to the 24s. now. 
 Q . You take no exception to the maximum of 26s. ? 
 A. We take no notice of that. 
 Q. But I meaji do you accept it? 
 
 A. We are bound to accept it ; it is already an established fact. 
 Q. You do not ask for an increase of the maximum? 
 
 A. It will be another five years before we get it. We only rise Is. a year. 
 Mr. Waipolc : Christmas tjoxes are worth about £7 10s. a year to you?
 
 Tlic Case for the London Supernumeraries 179 
 
 A. Yes, on my present duty ; but on the next levy I shall lose that. 
 
 Q. Is tliat last year's amount, or the average? 
 
 A. I tliink it is about my usual amoimt ; 1 do nearly 1500 separate tene- 
 ments. A good deal has been said aJ:)out the dangers of some of the duties 
 of tlie police, but we also liave some dangerous duties with regard to some 
 steps which I have to use constantly. It is the case of a man who was killed 
 — a neighbour of mine — as you will see from the print which I have in my 
 hands. 
 
 Q. WaiS he a postman? 
 
 A. No; imfortunately for our case he was a civilian. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. This poor civilian seems to have fallen down thirteen steps about 8 
 feet? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he had just had two glasses of mild sail hitler as well as 2d. worth 
 of gin? 
 
 A. That would not be excessive, sir. 
 
 Q. But it might contribute to the dajiger? 
 
 A. It is a dangerous place, as certified by the coroner's officer. There is 
 also 2 cottages, 1)ut before reaching them you have to go over a fence and 
 pass where there are some signal wu-es low down,, and cross two lines of 
 railway, where there is shunting being done. At Christmas time aii auxil- 
 iary sent to deliver parcels there brought them back and said he could not 
 find the place. I do not wonder at it. I could find it because I know to 
 my cost where it is. As the parcels were peri.shable we could not leave 
 them till next day, though the weather wa»s foggy. It is a very dangerous 
 walk. 
 
 Q. The coroner's court recommended the railway company to put a hand- 
 rail across and to light the bridge; has that been done? 
 
 A. It is private property, and the railway company say that if we go 
 tliere we go at our own risk. 
 
 Q. Have they fixed the hand-rail? 
 
 A. No, sh- ; nor the light. In conclusion, it would have been out of all 
 order if we had not been last. It is only consistent with our present posi- 
 tion as supernumeraries tliat you have heard our gi'ievances at the end of tliis 
 long Inquiry, but as we are last we hope we shall not be the least in your 
 favourable consideration. We look forward with confidence to your verdict, 
 knowing that we are the worst paid imd in many respects the worst treated 
 of the classes covered by this Inquiry. We thank you for the opportunity 
 you have given us of expressing our views. If you will allow me I should 
 just like to add that I am desired by the established men in the S.E., with 
 regard to the evidence given by Mr. Symes on classification, to state to 
 you that the conditions exj^lained to you relating to tlie E.G. of the injustice 
 done to a number of postmen affects men outside the City to a far greater 
 extent than has been shown to you. That is, the average time served on the 
 2nd class in the S.E. was three years, and therefore the loss to the district 
 men was much greater than that of the City men. 
 
 The witness then withdrew. At this stage someone in the room asked to 
 be allowed to give evidence respecting the case of the sujiemumerary parcels 
 postmen, but the Chairman declined, saying tha,t that had been sufficiently 
 covered already. Later in the day the Chairman expressed his willingness 
 to hear the witness, but he had then left.
 
 GEORGE OORBET, of Woohvicli. 
 
 SrEciAii Case for the Woolwich Men. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, March 9th, 1896. 
 
 George Corbet ■n'as next called and examined > 
 The Chairman: You are a postman, I believe? 
 A. I am an auxiliary postman, my lord. 
 
 Q. You want to tell us the ca.s6 in regard to the Woolwich men, don't 
 you? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. I might say in commencing that I am an auxiliary 
 postman of 29 years' standing, and my own case is that simply I have never 
 had an opportunity of being made an established postman. 
 Q. Have you got some otlier occupation? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, I have to have. I do not see how I could have got 
 on without it. It has been my ambition ever since I entered the Service to 
 get on the esfciblislmient, but I have never yet attained that, because, 
 unfortunately, as one of my colleagues said just now, I was born too soon. 
 Tlfe saile of age when I entered was 25, and I was 26, and although it was 
 extended some nine years later, when the new Woolwich office was opened, 
 we did not get the benefit of it. I and some 20 others sat for examination 
 with a view to a permanent appointment, but I was told I was ineligible 
 on the ground of my age. Unfortunately, I had grown no younger, but still 
 I am waiting on and hoping to be considered. I may say — for I wish to 
 conceal nothing — that I have a Ijreak in my service^ which, no doubt, 
 has been a great hindrance to me. I had, after taking all the senior duties 
 I could, repeatedly applied for promotion, and our late Postmaster at Wool- 
 wich, after making the applications, and having them refused, declined to 
 send any more forward, as he said it was quite useless. At that time I did 
 what was possibly a foolish thing. I wrote direct to our late Secretary, 
 Sir A. Blackwood, and I made up my mind that, if nothing came of that, 
 I would resign. Hearing nothing for some months after I did resign, but 
 I soon found out my mistake, for, having had so much outdoor exercise, 
 my health was not .sufficiently good to enable me to stick solely to my 
 occupation. I was a, bootmaker by ti-ade. I applied consequently to be 
 reinstated. I sent in the application on the Thursday, and on the Monday 
 the Postmaster sent for me, and said he had recommended me to be re- 
 instated. I have been in the Service ever since. 
 
 The Chairman : At any rate, your experience of the Service is that it 
 does not wear a man out. 
 
 A. It lias not worn me out so far. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And when you went back to the Service did you regain 
 your health? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I do not know that, so far as my own case is concerne<l, I 
 have anything further particular to siy, only I would like my service to be 
 recognised in some manner.
 
 Special Case for the Woolwich M^n. 181 
 
 Q. What i? your pay as an auxiliary? 
 A. Now it is lis. per week. 
 The Chairman : For two duties ? 
 
 A. Yes. I miglit have had more duties than that, but as I found that 
 I could not get on the establishment, or even on the unestablished class, 
 which I had already applied for, I took a duty which best suited me, so 
 as I could follow another occupation better. I may say that our Post- 
 master sent for seven of us, and, as far as my memory goes, he asked each 
 of us if we would take up a full duty providing it was offered to us. The 
 wages, he said, would be 18s. to £1 per week ; and he also promised that 
 efforts should be made to give us this full duty. He added that he could 
 not promise anj'thing in the way of j^rivileges, but that that matter must be 
 left in abeyance. I believe that each man sent in a reply that he would 
 accept the duty, presumably under the idea that ultimately he would be 
 recognised by the Department. We think that after 29 years' service as 
 auxiliaries we really deserve some recognition. 
 Q. How long was the break in your service? 
 
 A. Six months, sir, and I was reinstated without being recommended in 
 any shape or form, and even without being medically examined. As far as 
 my memory serves, I do not think I had to go before the magistrate again. 
 Mr. Walpole : I do not want you men to be under any misconception 
 as to your application. I am afraid we have not the power to do as you 
 suggest. 
 
 Witness, No, sir ; I am afraid not. I will now proceed with my state- 
 ment. In asking that the statement from the Woolwich men might be heard 
 separately, we do not wish you to infer that we are not satisfied with the 
 way in which the questions affecting the general body of postmen have 
 been placed before you, as we fully appreciate the conduct of the case 
 by our able colleagues, but, feeling that our case is purely local, and this 
 question of provincial control liavmg excited so much dissatisfaction at 
 Woolwich, we decided to approach this Committee separately. Previous to 
 April, 1875, Woolwich, for postal purposes, formed a part of the South- 
 East London District, at which date Woolwich became a district Head Office, 
 embracing the sub-offices of Charlton, Belvedere, Erith, Bexley Heath, 
 Bexley, Crayford, Welling, and Shooter's Hill, but was still incorporated in 
 and controlled by the London Postal Service mitil the 1st September, 
 1879, when, for some reason er other imknown to us, it was suddenly 
 transferred to the control of the South-East Provincial Surveyor. Tlds 
 transference caused great dissatisfaction to the staff at the time, a dis- 
 satisfaction which has existed ever since, and has constantly broken out in 
 recurring attempts to obtain retr?,nsference to the control of the London 
 Postal Service, and we hope to establish proof that we have some gi'ounds 
 for being dissatisfied with provineial control. Woolwich is for all practica-l 
 purposes a jmrt of the county of London ; it is represented in Parliament 
 by a London member ; it is also represented on the London County Council 
 and London School Board ; it hais its Metropolitan Fire Brigade and Metro- 
 politan Police, exactly the same as the pai-ishes of Westminster and St. 
 George's, Hanover Square. In fact, for all official purposes it forms a part 
 of London, but for postal purposes it might as well be as far away as 
 Land's End, and, when any question arises such as the giving of an increased 
 maximum of pay to postmen, compaxisorus are made between Woolwich 
 and Brighton or Newcastle-on-Tyne. Comparisons, my lord, are sometimes 
 odious, and I have no doubt that the senior staff at Woolwich would be 
 very glad to 'have their salaries put on a level with the senior staff at 
 Newcastle-on-Tyue, seeing that tl,e Postmaster and chief clerk get nearly 
 double the amounts paid to the same officers at Woolwich, and so on down- 
 wards, in proportion to the rest of the staff. We respectfully submit that 
 Woolwich should be controlled by the London Postal Service, and that we
 
 182 George CoBBtx, of Woolwich. 
 
 be paid the same rates of pay and enjoy all the privileges pertaining to tlie 
 Loudon Postal Service as those men in the adjoining parishes of Blackheath 
 and Greenwicli, where both tlie mininmm and the maximnm pay are higher 
 than at Woolwich, viz., 18s. by Is. to 30s., wherea.s ours are 17s. by Is. 
 to 24s., and 17s. by Is. to 28s., the low«r rat* obtaining at the sub-ofiBces 
 only. Thus we have men at the Charlton sub-offioe whose deliveries cover 
 a good part of the parish of Greenwich, yet they are on a scale of pay, the 
 maximum of Mdiich is some 6s. per week lower than at the two offices named. 
 We submit that this classification be aHolivshed, and all men doing eight 
 hours' duty may receive the same scales of i>av. We also submit that the 
 auxiliaries here may be paid the same a« in London, as promised by the 
 scheme of the late Mr. Raikes, viz. :• — not less than Is. for a delivery, and 
 not less than 6d. for a collection, their dufeie« being in no way dissimilar. 
 Being under provincial control bears harshly upon us in another direction, 
 viz. : — Promotion, which at Woolwich is absolutely at a standstill. The 
 appointment of head postman was abolislied some three years ago, and 
 there are only two appointments to whieh about 40 established postmen 
 may aspire, viz., an inspectorship and assistani^-inspectorship, and under the 
 provincial system these appointments are very frequently given to sorting 
 clerks and telegraphists, thus the maxim that '" once a postman always a 
 postman " is in a fair way of being carri«(l out. Whereas in London there 
 are numerous positions to which postmen may hope to obtain, such as head 
 postmanships, lobbj^ officers, overseers, and .sorterships, promotions to which 
 opens up a brighter prospect to the men, there ai'e no such openings existing 
 at Woolwich, and it deadens hope, and fr»(^uently sours the disposition. 
 My lord, we submit that house rents and the cost of living is as high here 
 as at Blackheath or Greenwich, and the competition for housing accom- 
 modation shows no sign of diminution, nor is it likely to do so, and there 
 is no prospect of rents going down. Our duties are no less onerous or 
 responsible, our hours of duty are no less than tliose of the men at Black- 
 heath and Greenwich, the requirements erf' the Service are in every way 
 the same, and we feel no reluctance in pressing our claim for reincorporation 
 in the London Postal Service. My lord, this question has been a bone of 
 contention for the last 15 or 16 years, ajid has created more discontent at 
 Woolwich than almost all the other grievances. Several attempts have 
 been made at removing it, but, up to the present, we have not succeeded. 
 We now ap|3eal to you and this Committee to urge upon the Department 
 the desirability of placing Woolwich in the position it formerly occupied 
 in the London Postal Service. The great majority of the inhabitants of 
 the parishes of Woolwich, Plumstead, and Charlton are in favour of it, 
 and we hope our appeal to this Committee will not have been in vain. I 
 might say in addition, my lord, tliat we have several men who formerly 
 were in the S.E. district office, both auxiliaries and established men — I 
 think there are seven or eight — and we were informed, although I have no 
 evidence of the fact, that ftlr. Fawcett stated that no man should suffer by 
 the change which resulted in transferring the S.E. district to provincial con- 
 trol. They have, however, suffered. 
 
 The Chairman : I want to know why you were selected to represent this 
 Woolwich case? 
 
 A. I do not know, my lord, any further than this, that I am one of the 
 oldest servants in the office. I rather pressed upon them to send another 
 man. 
 
 Q. It seems to me rather curious to have selected an auxiliary who was 
 not affectefl by this particular case, rather than one of the est.ablished men 
 who was aifected. 
 
 A. I quite thouglit so, my lord, and pressed them to send somebody else, 
 but they persisted in sending me if I would go. 
 
 Q. Then they had such confidence in you?
 
 Special Case far the Woolwich Men. 183 
 
 A. I suppose so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You are afiPected by it in the shape of auxiliary wages ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; there is only one man in the Woolwich office of that des- 
 cription, so that in the Service I can give the senior established man eight 
 years, and then lie seaior. I- have felt aggrieved tliat I could not get on the 
 establishment. I may say tlmt one time I was ofifered an appointment, 
 and I took one as a rural postman in the Beckenham district, from Hayes 
 to Down. At that time I understood it was to be an established appoint- 
 ment, but after taking it up I was given to understand that it would not be 
 so, on account of the break in my service, and as I had a sickly wife and six 
 young children to keep, I did not think that 18s. would be sufficient, and 
 therefore I gave up the appointment. Any step I have taken with regard 
 to my service has been taken honourably, and if I acted unwisely, as I 
 am sorry to think I did, still there was nothing dishonourable. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Is this grievance which you speak about confined to Wool- 
 wich, or do you speak on behalf of other suburban districts as well? Is 
 Woolwich the only place where the grievance prevails? 
 
 A. There is Woolwich and Charlton, and other districts. 
 
 Q. I am not asking as to the extent of the Woolwich district ; we know 
 that it embraces Charlton and otlier places, but I am asking, are there any 
 other districts in the outskirts of London like Woolwich in this respect? 
 
 A. I believe there are. I have a statement here from Croydon, which 
 bears upon the point. Shall I read it out? 
 
 The Chairman : I understand that Woolwich is the only case in the 
 London district where tliis grievance occurs? 
 
 A. I think Croydon is a similar case. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us the name of any other districts ? 
 
 A. I know of no other cases personally except this one at Croydon. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is it the sajne at Kingston, Richmond, and Kew? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You have not got up that case apparently? 
 
 A. No, sir; but I .shall read the Croydon case? 
 
 The Chairman : I think not if it is on the same point. We need not go 
 into details. If there are any other cases of a similar character, you can 
 simply give us the name. 
 
 A. I cannot say that there are. I will hand in the Croydon statement. 
 
 The witness then withdrew. The Chairman, looking at the Croydon case, 
 said it bore upon another point altogether.
 
 C. CHURCHFIELD— RE-CALLED. 
 
 SUPPLKMKNTART CaSS. 
 
 Westminster, March 19tli, 1896. 
 
 The Post Office Departmental Committee resumed its sitting at noon 
 to-day, all the members puttmg in an appearance during the course' of the 
 day. Lord Tweedmouth again presided. 
 
 Mr. C. Churchfield (E.C.D.O.) was re-called and examined as follows: — 
 
 The Chairman : I understand you have some case you wish to bring 
 before the Committee in which yon think that one of the men has been 
 injured in consequence of some evidence that has been given before this 
 Committee ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Will you stat* what j'ou have to say? 
 
 A. Yes. It is the case of G. J. Roberts, an auxiliaiy postman in the 
 N.W. District, whose case was mentioned before this Committee. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: When? 
 
 A. By Mr. Boaler. It is the case of a man who had no uniform, and was 
 doing Parcel Post duty. 
 
 Q. What day do you say wa^ mentioned? 
 
 A. I cannot say the day, but Stewart also mentioned it. 
 
 The Chairman : Was the name of the man Roberts mentioned ? 
 
 A. No name was given in the evidence, but he is the man who supplied 
 it, and I think it is generally known he is. 
 
 Q. It is as regards the supernumerarj^ postmen, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then what does he complain of? 
 
 A. He informs me that he has been called upon to resign his position of 
 auxiliary postman owing to the fact that a parcel docket which he reported 
 to the second-class overseer as missing had been found under the string of 
 a parcel on delivery. The case was reported by the first-class overseer to 
 the Postmaster, who said that, owing to the numerous complaints referring 
 to this man Roberts, he had better look out for another situation. The man 
 informs me that there is nothing whatever against him, tliat the complaints 
 are of a simple and trifling character, and he can't understand why, for the 
 loss of a docket wliich had to do with sorter's rather than postman's work, 
 he should be dismissed. I should like to hand in his letter, my lord. 
 
 The Cliairman : Very well. 
 
 The following is a copy of tlie letter : — 
 
 41 Queen's Crescent, Haverstock Hill, London, N.W. 
 16th March, 1896. 
 Mr. Churchfield, — ■ 
 
 Dear Sir, — Being a member of the Postmen's Federation, I wish 
 to draw your attention to what I was told last Saturday. I am one of those 
 parcelmen at Hampstead with no uniform, and also was the one that col- 
 lected the evidence for Mr. Stewart of S.W.D.O. Last week on G.P. I 
 reported an " N. bill " mis.sing to the second-class overseer. So the first- 
 class overseer fetched me back and .asked me why I did not report it to him. 
 at the same time saying he would make a special report of it. When I 
 returned to the office at 1 p.m. he had left an explanation, saying that the
 
 Supplementary Case. 185 
 
 bill was found under the string of a parcel while out on delivery, which I 
 found was correct. The answer came back on Saturday to my explanation 
 that, owing to so many reports, the Postmaster said I had better look out 
 foi- other work. Take it altogether, I don't think that I have any more than 
 anybody else, and when I do have them they are over piltry things like the 
 above ; in fact, they are not about postmen's work, but sorters', such as to 
 do with foreign and registered parcels. This very overseer that reported 
 me is the one that was spoken of at the Inquiry, he being the man who, 
 when assistance was asked for by the parcel postman, saying that laziness 
 was encouraged in the Post Office. And my opinion is that he heard that I 
 sent this evidence down, and, this being the first chance, he has rapped 
 this report in and made it worse than wliat it is. When he told me this 
 I said to him : " This is a fine thing to tell me — after nearly three years and 
 a half service." I liope and triLst you will try and do something for me. I 
 have been in the Federation nearly since it started. I am also a member 
 of a mutual benefit society. 
 
 A man at our office left a parcel on the wall the other day, and they did 
 not saj^ so much to him as they did to me for failing to see the " N. bill." 
 Please excuse writing, as I have a gathered finger. 
 
 I remain, your obedient servant, 
 G. J. Roberts, 
 
 Hampstead Parcel Postman. 
 
 Witness : Roberts informs me that he is prepared to stand by this letter. 
 
 Q. The only weakAess in it is that I do not think you have connected 
 this with the evidence upon his case in any way. 
 
 A. I would like to impress upon you that we c;in only connect it with 
 the evidence that this man has furnislied to us. 
 
 Q. But it seems to me that the evidence was of the most harmless char- 
 acter? 
 
 A. I beg your pardon ; I think you will fiml that tliere are only a few of 
 these men that were mentioned. 
 
 Q. But the general complaint is that tlioy do not receive boot money and 
 uniforms, as I understind it? 
 
 A. I beg your pardon ; but I think you will find that tliere are very few 
 of these men in London. 
 
 Q. The complaint made on behalf of this man was simply that he did 
 not receive certain advantages. 
 
 A. Yes ; that he did not receive uniform and boot allowance. 
 
 Q. Surely for a siatement of that sort the Department could not bear 
 any grudge against him? 
 
 A. Do you not think so, my lord? 
 
 Q. Well, I am looking at it from a most ordinary point of view. 
 
 A. Will you be good enough to read the man's own opinion, my lord? 
 
 Q. Well, he says in his letter, " My opinion is that he heard that I sent 
 this evidence down, and this being the first chance he has rapped this 
 report in and made it worse than it is. When he told me this, I said to 
 him : ' This is a fine thing to tell me after nearly three and a half years' 
 service.' " He expresses a hope also that you will do something for him, 
 Mr. Churchfield. I do not think that really indicates any feeling on the 
 part of the Department against the man for giving the evidence. 
 
 A. I would point out to you, my lord, that there are very few men of 
 this class, and if this man is dismissed the Service for tlie trifling offence 
 of omitting to report to the proper officer — and I think in this case he did 
 re])ort in the right way, for he reported to his immediate superior officer who is 
 the second-class overseer — I say that if he is dismissed for this trifling 
 offence the men will only be able to entertain one opinion as to the cause. 
 
 Q. Tliat is not the question. Roberts may have been hardly used with 
 regard to this particular lapse of duty ; I think that that is possible, but 1
 
 186 C. CllURCHFIELD, E.C.D.O. 
 
 know nothing about it. I do not think you l*ive given us any shadow of 
 proof that he has baen dismissed on account of supplying evidence. 
 
 A. But if there is nothing whatever against the man, does it not appear 
 to you that the very fact he has furnished the evidence would constitute a 
 reason? 
 
 Q. I do not know what is the cause of his dismissal, but I cannot con- 
 ceive it possible the furnishing of such evidence as I see here would con- 
 stitute any ground of complaint. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not a fact — does he not show it in his letter — that there 
 are several things against liim? 
 
 A. Also for trifling offences. 
 
 Q. What he says is, " Owing to so many reports, the Postmaster said I 
 had better look out for some other work " ; he does not contradict the fact that 
 there are several reports against him. Then he goes on to say, " I don't 
 think I have any more than anybody else, and when I do have them they 
 are over paltry things like the above ; in fact, they are not about postmen '.s 
 work, but sorters', such as have to do with foreign and registered parcels." 
 He does not think, apparently, that that is proper work to give him, but he 
 does not deny the fact that there are many reports against him? 
 
 A. Quite right. 
 
 The Chairman : I will take the opportunity of asking Mr. Badcock about 
 it at once, so that he may tell us what the Department has to say about it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Mr. Churchfield, the membars of your Federation have had 
 very full opportunity of giving evidence here, have they not? 
 
 A. Quite right, sir. 
 
 Q. And liave you any other ca^e ia which there has been any act of in- 
 timidation against any of these men? 
 
 A. I have a case from Windsor, where I am informed that the men are 
 suffering from a sort of petty intimidation. They are being watched about, 
 I am told. 
 
 The Chairman : Thank you, Mr. Churchfield. 
 
 Witness : I wish to thank the Committee for the manner in which they 
 have dealt with our witnesses.
 
 PROVINCIAL CASE. 
 
 ALEX. M'LAREN, Glasgow. 
 
 Wages — 
 Chkistjias Boxes — The Initial Wage. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, February 3, 1896. 
 
 Mr. Alexander M'Laren was next called : 
 
 The Chaii-man : You are in the Glasgow Post Office I believe? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And been there all the time of your service? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. When did vou begin? 
 
 A. In May, 1885. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As postman ? 
 
 A. Yes, as postman. 
 
 The Chairman: Under M'liat circumstances did you come into the Service? 
 
 A. I was a telegraph clerk witk the Glasgow and South-Western Railway 
 Company. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : What was yeur age? 
 
 A. Almost 17. I do not know that the circumstaaices of my way of enter- 
 ing the Service were in any way typical of the average case. 
 
 Q. How did you enter? 
 
 A. I entered as a postman. In the first years of my service I did not hold 
 any appointment. I was an unestablished postman. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it a better thing to be an auxiliary postman than a tele- 
 graph clerk? 
 
 A. In my particular circumstances it was. I wasi as tall at 16 years of 
 .age as I now am. My wages as a telegraph clerk on the railway were cer- 
 tainly not a man's wages, and I thought it was necessary to get more. 
 
 Q. What wages had you? 
 
 A. I had 9s. aj week. 
 
 Q. That is the ordinary jjay of a telegraph clerk on the railway? 
 
 A. Yes, for a lad of 16. 
 
 The Chairman: I suppose you were only a learner? 
 
 A. No ; I had had two yeai^s" experience. I wa*"? doing postal work as 
 well a.s railway work. I wiw tvs^ years a telegraph clerk at St. Enocli's 
 Station, and then I begam to think I was too big for the wage I was receiv- 
 ing. When I begam at the Post Office I got 18s. a week for substitute's 
 duty, but after I had been at tlie work eight or nine months, they found out 
 that I was under 18 years of age and said I was too young to be receiving 
 such a wage, so they ])ut me on auxiliary duty at 14s. a week. 
 
 Q. How many hours' duty? 
 
 A. Nominally six, but in these days the reality was much more than six. 
 It was really the full time of ai postman. 
 
 Q. It was in 1885 tliat voh jeiued the Service? 
 
 A. It is utterly impossible for me to give the dififerent dates that I was 
 full-time postman and auxiliary postman. 
 
 Q. How many j'ears were y«>i in that transition ^age? 
 
 A. Tliree and a half years. Jt was November, 1888, that I was added to 
 the establislied staff as a secon^-elass postman at 18s. a week.
 
 188 Alex. M'Lauen, Glasgow. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: You were then 20 years of age? 
 
 A. Yes ; I was then 20 years old. 
 
 The Chairman. You are going to speak on the whole Scotcli case? 
 
 A. I intend to cover in my statement the case for a,ll the provincial offices, 
 English and Scotch. In beginning I would like to say, that wlien we first 
 became aware we were to be allowed a hearing, there seemed to be great 
 importance attached to the separation of the case of the London men from 
 that of the provincial postmen. The reason for that I do not know. There 
 fias been some misunderstanding. Only at the la^t moment I became aware 
 that the causes were to be taken jointly (although it Iwid been my view all 
 along that it should be so), and it may, therefore, be necessary for me to 
 overlap some of the evidence given by the London men. If I do, I would 
 pray for some consi '.oration on that account. The provincial postmen are 
 the largest class in the Sendee. I believe there are 20,000 established post- 
 men, and I suppose that the auxiliaries numl)er 5,000 more. It is difficult 
 for us to get information on that point except by »pplica.tion to the authori- 
 ties. 
 
 The Chairman: In the case of points, already sufficiently dealt with, you 
 will pass them over. 
 
 A. I should prefer to be permitted to read my own. statement. 
 
 The Chairman : As fully as you like. I only suggested that where you 
 could cut down you might do so. 
 
 A. I have already cut out several pages. The wages question, on which 
 I propose more especially to speak, is one which gives room for debate, and 
 on which there is a gieat deal to be said. Nowadays when labour matters 
 are of such interest to the general public antl are discussed everywhere with 
 avidity, there is no more outstandmg division exists in the ranks of the 
 workers, than that which ex,ists between what is called " skilled " and " un- 
 skilled " labour. Whether these (distinctions are in themselves just or imju'st 
 is a disputed point with writers on labour-politics. For present purposes, 
 however, it is sufficient for me to sta,te that it depends very much under 
 which of these headings a man is ranged, whether he shall or shall not re- 
 ceive pay proportionate to his work. Therefore it follows that any class 
 of men prefer to be placed rather in the "skilled" than the "unskilled" list, 
 as thereby they become entitled to a higher scale of pay. The work of a 
 postman, with which we have at present more particularlj^ to do, is viewed 
 by the Department which controls the Service as belonging to the unskilled 
 class, and this view is ajdmitted to have, to a certain extent, an influence 
 on the rate of wages. I would point out, however, that the work of a 
 postman cannot fairly be classed as imskilled labour. There is skill required 
 to properly transact the duties, there is intelligence required, there is experi- 
 ence rer'uire:!, quite as much as in the case of professions generally considered 
 more difficult. Besides, the statement that a postman's work is " unskilled " 
 is contradicted by the Service itself ; as, if it be a fact, how then can the 
 work of those above him in rank — even postmasters and surveyors — be classed 
 as skilled and paid as such? It is plain therefore that it cannot be said 
 with any degree of consistency that a posftman's wages should be low because 
 his work is "unskilled." Another factor wliich in many cases settles the 
 rate of wages in other lines of life is the so-called " law ■ of supply and de- 
 mand." Tliis, for various reasons, cannot be used as a just standard in the 
 case of the postal service. The Post Office is a State monopoly ; there is 
 only one master, therefore a postman cannot change positions as he could 
 if engaged in any ordinary occupation. Rather is it the case that the Post 
 Office service is so exclusively a branch of Government work as to be alto- 
 gether outside the range of the law of supply and demand, and consequently 
 should not be guided by the rules of the ordinary laljour market. 
 
 Tlie Chairman: But then the employment is permanent? 
 
 A. I will deal with that presently. If a young lad is going to learn a 
 trade he has his craft behind him, but if a man goes into the Post Office he
 
 Provincial — Christmas Boxes — The Initial W acre. 189 
 
 lias no craft. There is no post office across the road where he can go and 
 get a job. (Laughter.) Post Office work is so nearlj^ allied to the Civil 
 Service that the regulations which fix the rates of wages in the latter might 
 also be fairly applied to the former. Evidently the law of supply and de- 
 mand is not recognised in other branches of the CivU Service. If it were, 
 how can you account for 500 applications for 30 places in open competition? 
 It would, we contend, be nothing more than fair that postmen's wages should 
 be fixed, not with reference to the rates paid outside Government service 
 but rather that the conditions of employment should be assimilated as much 
 as possible to those obtaining in other branches of Government employment 
 - — particularly of other branches of the postal service where work is of a 
 similar character. It might also be said in a general way with regard to 
 the law of supply and demand. If that law is a Divine one, what about 
 the unemployed ? I do not know how many that class number : Mr. Smith 
 probably is better verse<;I on that point. 
 
 The Chairman : A Post Office servant does not run the risk of being un- 
 employed? 
 
 A. We do not accept the law of supply and demand as applying to tlie 
 Post Office. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wliat is your authority for calling it a Divine law ? 
 
 (The question was not answered.) 
 
 Witness. Many years ago, when the sorters and letter-caiTiers were i-atocl 
 by the Department as being on a footing of equality, the letter-carriers con- 
 sidered that they had a gi-ievance in , being called upon to do the inferior 
 work of sorting. 
 
 The Chau-man : I suj^pose they cut down the districts and got less Christmag 
 boxes? 
 
 A. I do not know. To get over the difficulty the authorities established 
 the "dual certificate," and .clianged the appointment designation from "let- 
 ter-carrier " to " sorter and letter-carrier," so that 'the postmen might be 
 available for either indoor or outdoor duty, if necessary. Men constantly 
 employed on sorting duty were paid at a higher rate than those who were 
 always on delivering duty. This was not on account of any supposed superi- 
 ority of the work, but rather in lieu of uniform, and also because they had 
 no opportunity of getting Cliristmas boxes. This has already been treated 
 of. I ajm only mentioning it in the way of giving an historical retrospect, 
 so as to mark the disparity between the wages of sorters and postmen. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you agree with Mr. Warner as to the Christmas 
 boxes? 
 
 A. Partly, but I did not understand it all. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us where you differ from him? 
 
 A. I look on Christmas boxes as one of the emoluments of the office. Per- 
 haps I had better read my sitatement. Tliat these were the reasons for the 
 difference in pay is partly shown by a quotation from the "Memorandum 
 Circular," dated 22nd March, 1865, in wliich letter-carriers were reminded 
 that : " They received from the public in gratuities, at Christmas, a sum, 
 which if divided and spread over the whole yealr, would produce, on an 
 average, 5s. a week for each man." By this extract it will be seen that 
 Christmas boxes are approved of by the ^Department and actually recognised 
 as part of the postmen's wagesl. I will, however, have occasion later on to 
 refer more fully to this phase of the question. Mr. Arnold Morley, the late 
 Postmaster-General, speaking on the wages paid in the postal service, said 
 that — " Before the date of the revision by Mr. Fawcett in 1881, the maxi- 
 mum salary of the London Sorters of the fir.st class wais 45s. per week, and 
 it is now 56s.. The maximum for sorters of the second class was then 25s. 
 It is now 40s. With postmen there had been a corresponding increajse. The 
 maximum salary for first class postmen in London had been increased from 
 30s. to 34s. per week, and in the suburl)an districts from 28s. to 32s." Thia 
 Btatement on being examined shows that the increase of the maximum to
 
 100 Ai,K.\. M'I>\!{i:n, (llasjTow. 
 
 postmen was only 4s., agaiusL lis. to tlie first cla«8 and 15s. to tlie second 
 class of sorters. This cert^iinly could not in fairness \)e called a correspond- 
 ing increase to both branches of the Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If Mr. Morley had said there had been "an increase" in- 
 stead of "a corresponding increase," he would have been act-nrate. 
 
 A. I am taking the report from tlie London "Times." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Quite so. 
 
 Witness : Granting then that improved conditions of service are required 
 by the postmen, our propo.sal is to repla<^ the existing scales of wages by 
 the following: — (a) For j'lincipal towns r^nd their immediate suburl>an 
 \ncinity — Mmimuni 20s., increment 2s., a.vjl maximum 40s. (b) For smaller 
 towns, a i)roportionate increase [jrovided that no postmen doing full time 
 duty (whether town, sub-ofEce, or ruri!) should be placed on a lower scale 
 than — Minimum 20s., increment 2s., maximum 30s. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you any estimate as to what that would cost the 
 country? 
 
 A. Mr. Walsh is going to deal with that more particularly. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I understand ^^ou to draw a deduction l>etween the largest 
 and tli« smallest towns as regards the maximum. You put one at 40s. and 
 the other at 30s. 
 
 A. We ask that the men in the large towns sliould rise to 40s., ani for 
 /he smaller towns a corresponding increase providing they are not to 
 be less than 30s. 
 
 Q. You are adopting tlie word " cori-esponding " perhaps not quite accu- 
 rately. Y'ou objecte'l to the late Postmaster-General using it. 
 
 A. Y'es, and the objection can be brought out as well founded by rule of 
 three. 
 
 Q. You suggest for the largest towns 20s. to 40s., and for the smallest 
 20s. to not less than 30s. ? 
 
 A. I am not di\'iding them into two classes. I am leaving it for the De- 
 partment if it chooses to arrange an intermediate class. 
 
 Q. StOl you say the smallest towns up to 30s. and the largest up to 40s.? 
 
 A. Y^es ; but there might be an intermediate class. In my statement- I 
 am merely naming the largest and smallest towns. These proposals are not 
 put forward without due consideration. Postmen who are at present being 
 paid at very low wages would, it is true, get by this scheme a very con- 
 siderable advance. 
 
 The Chairman : I suppose the second scale would cover all the rural post- 
 men? 
 
 A. Xot altogether. Another witness will deal with their case. If rural 
 postmen are really located in a town they ought to have the town rate of 
 wages. 
 
 Q. Can you, without reference to particular rates, tell me what your own 
 view would be of the different cost of living? What would be the variation 
 in the cost in a big town, in a small town, and in a rural district? 
 
 A. There is a difference, and sometimes it happens that the existing classi- 
 fication does not meet the necessities of the case. 
 
 Q. What in your opinion is the difference? Can you form any opinion 
 yourself as to how much greater expense one is put to by living in a large 
 town than a small one, or how much more expense in a small town than 
 in a rural district ? 
 
 A. I have not been able to form any precise judgment upon that point. 
 I have, however, asked for information upon it. and I find that the cost of 
 rent is not exactly in proportion to the population of the place. 
 
 Q. Y''et it can only be by some sort of population test that a classification 
 could be fixed at a.ll. 
 
 A. We prefer that we should be divided into districts. There is the Tyne 
 district, for instance, and the cost of li%Tng in the towns round about there 
 is practically the same as in Newcastle itself, and itherefore the wages ought
 
 Provincial — Christmas Boxes — The Initial "Wage. 191 
 
 to be the same. Yet under the existing arrangement the cost of living in 
 these towns is reckoned on a lower scale than in Newcastle itself. 
 
 Q. But you cannot tell me an}"thing which will enable me to form a 
 judgment of your \'iew as to what the difference would be in the cost of 
 living in these various districts? 
 
 A. No; it would be impossible without having to produce such a volume 
 of evidence as we should never get through. 
 
 The Chairman : You might boil it down before you come here and give 
 us the results. 
 
 Witness : We will now consider the mode of entering the Service and thj 
 initial wages paid to jK)stn!en on whole-time duty, llie postmen's class is 
 chiefly recruited from the telegraph messengers — a state of matters of which 
 we quite approve. The present commencing wage of the established class 
 is 17s. per week — in most provincial towns tliere are, of course, lower classes 
 — and if a lad of 16 or 17 years of age gets this rate immediately on leaving 
 the telegraph messengership, there would not be quite so much room for 
 complaint. This, however, Ls not the case. The terms of ser\nce of new 
 entrants are at the present day much worse than they were about 20 year.^ 
 ago. At that time t^ie qualifving age for appointment was 16, and the ap- 
 pomtment was confirme I in six months. Now the qualifying age is 18, an 1 
 the newly-appointed posrtman has to undergo a further probation of two 
 years Ixsfore his appointment is confirmed. We do not object to the raising 
 of the age. On tlie contran", we approve of it, because we maintain that 
 letter delivering is not an employment in wliich boy labour should be used. 
 Before a lad can be entrusted with the delivery of letters he must have ar- 
 rived at years of some discretion. Tlie authorities, fully alive to this, do not 
 care to employ any one under 18 so long as a sufficient number who are over 
 that age are forthcoming to till up vacancies as they occur. The following 
 extract from the "Book of Rules fur Postma.«!ters " is mteresting as throwing 
 some light on this ])liase of the question: — "No i)erson under 16 years of 
 agu can be permittal to hold any situation in tlie Post Office, or to have 
 access to letters, with tlie following exceptions:- (a) Persons employed witii 
 the consent of tlie surveyor in rural districts or in times of gi'eat pressure, 
 (b) Persons employed exclusively on telegraph businessi." These would be 
 telegraph messengers, of course. We would naturally expect that the rais- 
 ing of the qualifying standard would be accompanied byi a corresponding 
 improvement of the initial wages. This, however, was not the case. In- 
 stead of getting an improved initial wage, the rate of pay was actually re- 
 duced from 18s. to 17s. per week. In Glasgow, some years ago, a new 
 entrant was placed on the establishment within a few weeks of his joining 
 the Service. In that civse he had an increase of pay shortly after completing 
 one year's actual service. At present a new entrant has to wait for years 
 Vjefore being appointed. For example, a young man entering the Service 
 has to go through all the vicissitudes of auxiliary poslmanship for three or 
 four years before his turn for taking up whole-time duty comes. During 
 this time his wages may \ye 8s. or 14s. per week, according to the number 
 of hours which he may have to work daily. The time so served does not 
 count as service for pension, stripes, or anything else. After taking up 
 whole-time duty, he may he months ^before being added to the established 
 class at 17s. per week. This prolonged unestablished service is likely to 
 continue as long as the present system of employing a large auxiliary force 
 exists. We contend that paying low wages is not consistent with the duty 
 of the Department to the public, and the validity of our contention wns 
 practically admitted by the late Mr. Raikes, who said: — "Postmen occupy 
 an important public position of great trust and responsibility, and I con- 
 sider 18s. per week too low a rate of pay for po.stmen who are of mature 
 age." I may say that this statement, male in the Hou.se of Commons, lei 
 us 1o hope we should get an increased commencing wage rather than a re- 
 duction.
 
 192 Alex. M'Laren, Glasgow. 
 
 The Chairman: The men must be of a mature age? 
 
 Witness : T will deal with that later on. As we have seen, the commenc- 
 ing wage has been decreased instead of increased. It is our desire to sae 
 established a living wage for all postmen who do a full day's work. By the 
 term " living wage " we do not mean a wage on which a man may simply 
 exist, but on which the postmen can live in a healthy, decent house, ade- 
 quate in size for a normal family. And when I say " normal family," a 
 postman of 18 is not expecte^l to have a large family. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Chairman : I hope not. (Renewed laughter.) 
 
 Witness : But he may be expected to support his parents. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Or kelp towards it. 
 
 Witness : Yes. It is necessary a postmani should be able to supply for 
 liimself, his wife, and children, sufficient food and clothing, and surround 
 them with a certain amount of domestic comfort. If we were speaking of 
 the case for Glasgow alone we would claim even a higher initiiil wage than 
 that stated — that is. higher than £1 a week. But we are bearing in mind 
 that the representations we are now m.fiking are on behalf of the whole 
 country, and that it may perhaps be necessary, in the fcase of large towns, 
 to subordinate their interest to some extent so as to secure a measure that 
 could be uniformly applied throughout the country. Another matter in con- 
 nection with which postmen consider they are not treated so liberally as 
 the circumstances warrant is the matter of increment. The rise from a low 
 wage to a respectable living wajge is, in our opinion, too slow. Assuming, 
 for example, that a lad of 17 enters the Service at Glasgow, and that after 
 a lapse of four years he receives his appointment, the pay obtainable by him 
 after seven years' actual service would only be 20s. per week. Considering 
 that he will by this time be 24 years of age,that he will take ten years more 
 to reach the maximum pay, this rate of increase is, in om* opinion, altogether 
 inadequate. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt. Is not four years rather longer than the period which 
 usually elapses between a lad joining and getting his appointment? 
 
 A. It depends very much upon whether there is an auxiliary class to be 
 tra^^elled through befoi-e it rc;u:hfis the full-time olas-s^ — whether, in fact, there 
 is a buffer class. I am well aware that (Jlasgow is to some extent not alto- 
 gether a typical case. I have gone over tlie evidence that has been supplied 
 to me, and I find it is a very general custom for the buffer claiss to be ex- 
 hausted — for it to be travelled through before a man gets an appointment. 
 It is quite a common thing for a new entrant to have two and even three 
 yeai's' service before being added to the established cla^s. 
 
 Sir F. _Mowatt : If he goes in at 17 they would put him before 20 on the 
 establislied class. You have been using the figure 24. 
 
 Witness: I will repeat my statement. 
 
 Q. You said two or three years' service just now ? 
 
 A. Yes. Li Glasgow we have 524 established and 202 auxiliary postmen. 
 
 Q. You said two or three years, and you have also put it at four. I want 
 to loiow which is the period you rely upon? 
 
 A. I can only repeat my sitatement. (Repeated part of last paragraph, 
 beguming with the words " Assuming, for example," and ending " altogether 
 inadequate.") Continuing the witness said: — In putting forward a plea for 
 improved wages, we are not unmindful of the advantages of Post Office em- 
 ployment, nor do we desire to overlook them. We would point out, how- 
 ever, that these advantages, while m themselves real and of direct benefit, 
 coupled as they are with the rates of wages, do not represent so much a.s 
 they seem to do. In tlie first j^lace, we have sick pay. That we have in 
 common with many other liranches of the Civil Service, and it has not yet 
 been pointed out as an argument in favour of low wages to other sections 
 of the Government service. We have also uniform and boot money. On this 
 question I am not opposed to a nomhial value, asi wages, being set on the 
 boot money and uniform. But I think the Department, seeing they must
 
 Chi-istmas Boxes — The Initial Wajje. 193 
 
 provide some badge of office to distinguish us from the general public, should 
 not regard as wages the full cost of the articles. The subject of pensions is 
 one which I do not propose to discuss, as I am confident that a subsequent 
 witness will show how infinitesimal are the average postmen's prospects of 
 a pension. A subsequent witness will also deal with the general question of 
 promotion. So I will confine my remarks to a consideration of the prospects 
 of promotion as enhancing the average postman's position — a matter alluded 
 to by the late Postmaster-General (Mr. Arnold Morley). It may turn out 
 that the postmen have in the past been deprived of their proper share of 
 promotion, and I hope that that will be one of the results of the Inquiry. 
 But it is scarcelj' possible that such a large increase will be made to the 
 postmen's list of higher appointments as will secure to every postman pro- 
 motion as a, matter of course. My own impression is that the conditions are 
 such that 90 per cent, of the postmen will end their service with the post- 
 men's uniform still on their backs. I think the proportion would be more accu- 
 rate if it were put a little higher. In Glasgow there are 524 established post- 
 men and 202 auxiliary postmen, while, if we include sub-office postmen (i.e., 
 postmen not employed at liefid office) "we have 800 postmen at Glasgow. It 
 seems highly improbable that there will be such a change from the existing 
 order of things as to give ])romotion to even a small proportion of these 
 without making sinecure posts. We cannot be parties to the advocacy of 
 creating additional higher appointments, even though they should be intended 
 to afford promotion to meritorious officers, unless such additional superior 
 .appointments are required in the public interests. With regard to Sunday 
 pay, many men would rather be free on the Sunday and have the Day of 
 Rest to themselves than have work, even though they are paid for it. Then, 
 with reference to the regular nature of the employment which is urged as an 
 advantage of the Post Office service, I would point out that, while to a man 
 of reliable character the situation is permanent and the wages regular, there 
 is the great fact remaining that we often have irregular and undesirable 
 hours of attendaince, and have frequently to attend to our official duties in 
 time which ought properly to have been our own. This detracts consider- 
 ably from the siitisfaction of being in receipt of regular wages and in a per- 
 manent situation. 
 
 The Chairman : But think how many in outside employment have the 
 same disagreeables to face. 
 
 A. Quite so. lliis is our statement to the Department. There is no 
 evidence of the uniformity of the apjjlication of the principle of the value of 
 permanent employment in dealing with the cases of men inside and outside 
 the Department. 
 
 Q. Take the case of a policeman. He has worse hours than you have? 
 A. Yes, partly so ; his hours are not quite the same. 
 Q. And he has as responsible a place? 
 
 A. Even more so. He has to exercise so many functions. There is still 
 another matter which is of interest to all postmen, ajid it ia looked at by 
 the Department as one of the most important emoluments connected with 
 that branch of tlie Service responsible for the delivery of the letters — I mean 
 the question of Christmas boxes. This, in my opinion, and in the opinion 
 of very many of tho.se most directly concerned, instead of being looked on 
 as an atlvantage, should be treated as something entirely different, and openly 
 discouraged, if not totally prohibited. For one thing, we submit that a 
 system whereby the servants of the State receive jjrivate gratuities, which 
 are looked as part payment for public services, is altogether wrong in prin- 
 ciple, ajid ought to be abolished. This view was borne out by Mr. Raikes, 
 who said: — "It has appeared both practical and advisable to prevent the 
 extension of the system to other classes, and with this end in view the solici- 
 tation of Christmas boxes by Post Office servants other than letter-carriers 
 is prohibited on pain of dismissal." This shows tharf; exceptional legislation 
 is made in the case of postmen which they do not altogether appreciate. 
 G
 
 194 Alex. M'Laren, Glasgow. 
 
 The Chairman: Is the sum raised in Glasgow a very considerable one? 
 
 A. It varies very much according to the districts. In some of the higher 
 districts it readies £16, wiiile in the lower districts it ia not more than £3. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Does tliafc rei)resent tlie two extremes — £3 and £16? 
 , A. Well, in one or two cases it nuiy be a little higher. We have no data 
 to go uixjn. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you think the public would cease to give Christmas 
 bpxes if it were prohibited ? 
 
 A. If they were prohibitetl I think they would. Glasgow's case is some- 
 what different from London. There we have no house to house canvass with 
 a book. 
 
 Q. It is purely voluntary on the part of the public? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are the boxes asked for? 
 
 A. Not to a very great extent. 
 
 Q. Does not the postmen call at a house and say to the servant, " Will 
 the master give a Christmas box this year?" I expect he does— (laughter). 
 
 A. It may be indirectly asked for, but it is considered mean to ask for it. 
 It is preferred that it should be purely spontaneous on the part of the public. 
 Perhaps this accounts for the lowness of the Glasgow rate. I believe that, 
 taken altogether, the average will not excee<l £5 per man. The postmen 
 on collecting duties have no Christmas box at all. I am only giving my own 
 opinion. In dealing with this question I think that the general custom in 
 Glajsgow and other towns in Scotland that I am aware of is not to allow 
 solicitation. Many of ns did not know it was allowed until rule-books were 
 issued to us a few years ago, and in them we found it stated that it is 
 allowed. Formerly our view was that we were allowed to accept but not 
 to solicit. That the time has come for a change is shown by the fact that 
 the public are allowing the custom to fall into disuse. Tliey realise that the 
 postman is a serv^ant of the State, and doing the work of the State, and they 
 argue, not unnaturally, that he should be paid altogether by the State. 
 Then, again, the system is not at all fair to the men themselves. Nowadays, 
 with an increase! number of deliveries, some districts may have three or 
 more postmen in the course of the day. In London they have more, but I 
 am referring to Glasgow. Tlie public, of course, do not recognise one post- 
 ma,n more than another, or at least, will not consider themselves indebted 
 to one postman more than another. They cannot, therefore, be expected to 
 give a tip to every postman, neither can book-sharing among the men them- 
 selves l>e expected. I may tell you that in Glasgow postmen do not share 
 out the Cliristmas boxes. 
 
 The Chairman : And each man gets what he can? 
 
 A. Yes. It is quite tnae that the senior men on the walk consider that 
 they have the first claim, as a matter of custom. The postmaster, not later 
 than last week, said he would be disinclined to interfere in any dispute of 
 the kind. In London, the postmp^ster:i do adjudicate on these disputes. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is there any agreement among the postmen as to who shall 
 call at. a particular house, or is there a sort of raoe between them? 
 
 A. There is no race. The man who goes there the most frequently in the 
 day is probably the best-known and gets it, but it is a matfct«r of chance in 
 many instances. If only one gra-tuity is given at a house it is a matter of chance 
 who gets it. It som.etimes happens that an auxiliary going only once a day 
 may get as much as the regular postman who goes three or four times a day. 
 
 The Chairman : Perhaps he has got a friend in tlie house — (laiughter). 
 
 Witness: The result is that the monies received as Christmas gifts come 
 to b? very imequally distributed, and while they represent something to 
 some men, they mean very little to others. Of course, that they may be 
 partly accounted for by the absence of that continual remmder, " the book," 
 which perhaps might keep them up to the standard of 5s. a week all round. 
 There has been a large increase in the number of postmen. But there ha^s
 
 Chrislmas Boxes — The Initial Wage. 195 
 
 been of late years a large shrinkage in the value of the Christmas boxes, both 
 in respect to the amount of the individual " tips " and in the proportion of 
 the public who continue the custom. Speaking in July. 1890, on the value 
 of Christmas boxes, the la(te Mr. Raikes siiid : — ^" I have been informed that 
 veiy large sums fall to the lot of lucky postmen, and I have heard the 
 average estimated at £15, and rising, in some cases to £75 a year." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is that so ? 
 
 A. I have taken it from Hiwisard. Perhaps this accounts for the Raikes 
 revision to postmen being less liberal than his revisions to other branches. 
 I believe, however, that Mr. Raikes' information was greatly in error, and 
 that the value of Christmas boxes was on that occasion over-estimated, at least, 
 so far as some towns M-ere concerned. Another decided disadvantage pertain- 
 ing tlie system is that Christmas gifts are sometimes used as bribes to induce 
 men to break the rules of the Service in various ways, such as giving letters 
 in the street, even registered letters ; putting letters under doors ; giving 
 information as to the affairs of business people ; divulging removals of 
 delators ; or otherwise exceeding their duties. For instance, if a man is in 
 the habit of giving a 5s. Christinas box and he comes up to me in the 
 course of tlie year and wishes one of those things done, it would taike far 
 more nerve on my part to refuse him than to refuse a man who was not 
 in the habit of giving anything. The system is nothing more or less than 
 indirect taxation, of which the general public ought to be relieved, and 
 whicli should be borne solely l)y the Department. For iaistance, there is — 
 I can speak only for Gla'sgow and not for the rest of the country — only a 
 portion of the public who give these Christmas boxes. They are, by this 
 practice, pajdng a. double aliare if it be the case that the postmen are re- 
 ceiving 5s. a week less by reason of this system, for that 5s. goes to the 
 general revenue. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You say 5s. per week per man. You also told us the a^verage 
 was £5 i>ev man. 
 
 .\. The Department estimated it at 5s. per week per man. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you tliink tlie tendency is towards a .shrinkage in the 
 Christmas Imx.'s? 
 
 A. Yes ; if they are not asked for. 
 
 Q. And if they were worth 5s. a week in 1865, and there hajs been a 
 shrinkage since, they a^e not worth it now? 
 
 A. They may l>e worth it in towns where they are collected with a book. 
 But where they a.re not so collected they are shrinking. The Department 
 might deliver a notice to the public to the effect that they were expected 
 to make up the 5s. and atlvise tliem accordingly to pay it up — (laughter). 
 Of course, I am not putting that forwtird as a practical suggestion. Still it is 
 the logical outcome of the system. This system of>erate.s unfairly towards 
 younger men and in poor districts, while tlie^men in rich or business districts 
 do well. I presume the theory of the Department is to show no favour to either 
 nchor poor, so far as the Post Office is concerned. If tliLs system is to be used 
 in any way as a bribe to influence the manner in which a postman discharges 
 his duty, it is quite possible that tlie officers in the richer districts would 
 even exceed their duties as compared with the men in the poorer districts. 
 Many men overwork tliemselves in order to keep walks which have grown to 
 be too much for one man, because thereby they have more opportunities of get- 
 ting Christmas boxes. I have no doubt' that" if inquiry is instituted on this 
 point by the Department confinnation will be forthcoming. The increase 
 of 40s., which we now ask, if given, would willingly be accepted in lieu of 
 Christmas boxes— ^I am, as to this, sjjeaking on behalf of the provinces— and 
 by this means the Service would be rid of a glaring anomaly and the men, 
 while equally well paid, would be, all on one footing, and would have no 
 inducement to favour one more than another of whom we serve. Since the 
 introduction of the penny posUige, the prepaid letter had been the staple
 
 196 Alex. M'Laken, Glasgow. 
 
 source of revenue to the Department. In connection with the Post Office 
 there is no oilier efficient class of men tlian the postmen. They form, indeed, 
 the backbone of the Service, without wliom it would be impossible to carry 
 on the work. Again — I am speaking particularly of my own office at Glas- 
 gow — I maintain tliat the postmen's st:iff are as efficient in their duties as any 
 other branch of the Service. Their wages, however, have not kept pace with the 
 improvement made in the wages of other cla.sses. This, to a certain extent, 
 is due to the existence of the. Christmas-box system, which I have already 
 spoken of. Another probable reason i.s that the postmen are numerically 
 a very large class, and to givioit them even a small increase of pay involves 
 considerable expenditure. And it so comes about that the Treasury, when 
 the subject of rates of pay is under consideration, alwayis seems to give a 
 less liberal revision to postmen than to the other branches of the Service. 
 That seems to be the objection, anyway. Any proposal to increase the 
 wages of a small class seems to meet with less difficulty than is the case with 
 such a large class as the postmen. There are so many points? to be weighed 
 up in the postmen's case that do not seem to 1)3 considered in the case of 
 other cla-sses. I have now endea.voured to show that the increase of wages 
 is demanded by the nature of the work, is deserved by tlie way in which 
 that work is performed, and by comparison with the other branches of the 
 Post Office Service, and is required in order to replace what in former years 
 was calculated as part payment, but is now being seen to be not only unjust 
 to the great mass of the men and humiliating to the independence of their 
 nature, but is also of less real value than it was some time ago. That 
 finishes the statement I have prepared. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you not formed any opinion as to the amount it 
 would cost? 
 
 A. Mr. Walsh is dealing fully with that. 
 
 Q. He has formed an opinion, then? 
 
 A. Yes. I may say the reason I am not dealing with that in my evidence 
 is that we were working on different data and arrived at different figures. 
 Ap])roximately they are the same, but I .should prefer to have only one set of 
 figures used. 
 
 The Chairman : It ha.s been calculated (o amount to about £270,000 a 
 year. 
 
 Witness. Is that for provinces alone? 
 
 The Chairman : Yes ; for the provinces alone without London. 
 
 Witness : Yes ; I l>elieve it would come to that. 
 
 Tiie C'hairman : The provincial towns and the rural districts as well? 
 
 Witness : Yes.
 
 JOHN WALSH, Liverpool. 
 
 Wages — 
 AcjuKEUATK — Special Cases — LivEitrooL. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, February 3, 1896. 
 
 Air. John Walsh was nexb called. 
 
 The Chairman: You are a Liverpool postman, I believe? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the Service? 
 
 A. I joined in February, 1877. 
 
 Q. As an auxiliary? 
 
 A. I joined as an auxiliary. I was ofifered an appointment about five 
 months before at Aintree, but I refused it. I subsequently joined as an 
 auxiliary at 18s. ^ler week. I served in that capacity about five months. I 
 had an understanding that I should be appointed i^ostman, and was appointed 
 on the 3rd August, 1877, also at 18s. c\ week. I got up to 20s., and then 
 became a sorting postman in 1882, iso that wages now, with allowances, are 
 41s. a week. 
 
 Q. You have three stri}>es? 
 
 A. Yes, I have three stripes after 19 years" service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : W]iat allow ;wiees have you? 
 
 A. 7s. as a sortino- postman. Is for each of three stri^Jes, and Is. for 
 soiting. On investigation in 1881 it was found that Liverpool did more 
 sorting thin any other town in the United Kingdom. A gentleman was 
 sent down from London to investigate the matter, and that was his report, 
 and we consequently got a shilling increase all round. It was suggested that 
 that should be withdrawn in 1891. 
 
 Q. You get 7s. for indoor service and Is. for sorting? 
 
 A. Yes, but a shilling will die out with the present hoklera. 
 
 Q. At anv rate you get 41s. a week now? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smith : How did you get up to that ? 
 
 A. I entered at 20s. minimum. At that time 2s. were in jeopardy. The 
 maximum for the whole Service was 26s., with 2s. temporary. That was 
 temporary then, but it was soon after made permanent. 
 
 The Chau-man : What are the particular points j^ou are going to take up? 
 
 A. I am first dealing with the wages question, mostly in the aggregate. 
 I will also deal with the pension question. To begin my case I have gone 
 slightly out of the ordinary, ae I wish to detail a special case in connection 
 with the head office at Liverpool, which points to some of the difficulties of 
 our work. 
 
 The Chairman: Is it illustrative of the case of any part of the country? 
 
 A. I dare say it is to a great extent. 
 
 The Chairman : Your Liverpool business is, of course, different to the busi- 
 ness in other parts of the kuigdom, on account of the great amount of Ameri- 
 can mails to be dealt with. 
 A. Yes. 
 Q. Do these mails go into the hands of the postmen?
 
 198 JohnSWai.sii, Liverpool. 
 
 A. Yes ; we liave to deliver the mails, and that increases our work. The 
 men liave a grievance on that score. They get no extra pa<y for overtime. 
 The work is crushed into our ordinary work. Mr. Dowling will deal with 
 that point more extensively. I have to complain that the work at the Head 
 Office, Liverpool, is murderous. About eight months ago I substituted 
 James Elliott on 12 C walk (see b) ; the man was regarded as one of the 
 strongest men in the Service. He' died after about a fortnight's illness. I 
 asked his sister what was the cause of his deatli ; she told me the doctor 
 put it down to liea(rt dise^tse, but that he told her and the doctor that the 
 lieavy walk was killing him. She said from the time he went on 12 C walk 
 a few months before, lie had vomited up his food through severe work. I 
 did not find the walk above average in the mornings, but after a day's work 
 on it I was only fit for bed. 
 
 The Chairman : Let us hear where this walk is, and what makes it so ex- 
 ceedingh- hard. 
 
 Witness : I propose to descril>e the nature of the work at the head office 
 later on. The point is that I can name more than one walk in the same pre- 
 dicament. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You have been doing this walk? 
 
 A. No, sir ; only on the occasion I have mentioned. I go from walk to 
 walk. On the B side of the same walk the inspectors watch Little commit- 
 ting suicide day after day in trying to cope with two men's work. I hold 
 tlie man as guilty of dishonesty who presses the work of two men on one, 
 as is a man who takes wrong change from a counter. Little carries from 
 40 to 90 lbs. of letters out on Jiis delivery, and has had one hour extra duty 
 for leaving this immense weight at the bottom of some stairs while he served 
 the top offices. He has been operated on for a twist in the bowels at the 
 Royal Infirmary. On one occasion, when the man was off, about six men, 
 including inspectors, had to help the walk out. 
 
 Mr. Wajpole : Has Little applied for relief? 
 
 A. He could not have relief. As Mr. M'Laren has told you also, one reason 
 why the men thus sacrifice tliemselves is for tht, sake of the Christmas boxes. 
 
 Q. But assummg that he had api)lif'd for relief, would it not have been 
 given him? 
 
 A. I am quite sure that it would not under the old regime, which has just 
 passed awa.y. 
 
 Q. Is it not a distinct rule of the Service that it shall be given? 
 
 A. I find that in London and Belfast the regulation is that in making a 
 collection 35 lbs. shall Ije the maximimi. That regulation is applied to walks 
 in London and Belfast. It is not so in Liverpool. I was substituting on 14 
 B walk, and weighetl the bag on the first delivery for a week. On the 29th 
 of November I had 47 lbs., on the 1st December 63 lbs. I was late getting 
 out. and was due to collect at 8.30. I did not finish the delivery till near 
 9 a.m. I had to run for the collection, and was covered with sweat when 
 I arrived a* the office. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Did you apply for relief ? 
 
 A. I would not attempt to apply for relief or raise any difficulty. In 
 Liverpool the rule has been to deny the postmen everything that they ask 
 for. On the 3rd of December it weighed 58 lbs., on the 4th 59 lbs., on the 
 5th 76 lbs., on the 7th 58 lbs. I was so exhausted after these first deliveries 
 that I could not sleep in the interval between deliveries, and on one morn- 
 ing had to take £^ bath to refresh myself for the work which followed. I 
 had the bag on 16 B weighed on the 29th ; it weighed 63 lbs. ; on the Satur- 
 day it was over a hundredweight ; on the 6th it weighed 90 lbs., and on the 
 8th December 120 lbs. Tlie insT)ector helped the man to lift it on his shoulder 
 on the 8th December. 
 
 The Chairman: Are you quite sure of these facta?
 
 Special Cases — Liverpool. 199 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. I have in each case a witaiesi? to the weighing of the 
 bags. I am sure of the facts. Tliey have taken the average weights in 
 Liverpool over and over again, and I beUeve you will find that the whole 
 office average over 40 lbs. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What distance do you go to these deliveries? 
 
 A. The walk is about seven or eight minutes' walk from the post office, 
 /and we have to carry the bag up and down the stairs, for if we leave it at 
 the bottom the outdoor inspector, wlio is on the watch, will get us from one 
 to three hours' extra duty for the risk we have run. 
 
 The Chairman : Can you give me the exact distance of the three several 
 walks, the names and places where they start and finish? 
 
 A. That would only be giving the distance the bag has to be carried. I 
 cannot estimate the distance up and downstairs. 
 
 Q. I want you to give me some street to begin with? 
 
 A. From the head office to Dale Street is about seven or eight minutes' 
 walk ; that is 14 B. Then 12 A is just at the back of the Exchange — Old 
 Hall Street it begins at. 
 
 Q. Where does it finish? 
 
 A, It serves Old Hail Street, Queen Street, and Brook Street, and, on tlie 
 other side. Old Hall Street ; 12 C serves Edmond Street and Ormond Street. 
 
 Q. How long does it take on the average to complete the dtelivery on the 
 12 C walk? 
 
 A. I should say it takes from about half-past seven to a quarter to nine. 
 The work has grown up immensely in Liverpool, so that the men liave had 
 practically to bulk the letters into the boxes without looking through them 
 outside. 
 
 Q. Tlien the first delivery takes about an hour and a quarter? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many deliveries are there on that walk in the course of the day? 
 
 A. Three deliveries. 
 
 Q. And what lengtli of time do the following deliveries take? 
 
 A. There is a mid- day and an afternoon one. For the former we are due 
 at the office at 11, and we finish it just on one. 
 
 Q. How long would you be kept before you get the letters? 
 
 A. No time at all. They are ready immediately we go back to work. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that the mid-day delivery takes two hours? 
 
 A. C duty commences at 11 and finishes at one. 
 
 Q. You take two hours to do the same duty in the middle of the day for 
 which you take only 1^ liours in the morning? 
 
 A. The carriers take a double proportion in the day-time. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: A longer walk? 
 
 A. Yes, a longer walk but less letters. 
 
 The Chairman : Were all these heavy weights on the early morning da* 
 liverv? 
 
 A.* Yes. 
 
 Q. And what length of time does the evening delivery take? 
 
 A. About the same ; we finish at five or half-past. We are due to collect 
 I at 2.45, and finish at half-past five. 
 
 Q. What really occurs is that you have thf! first delivery, then a collection 
 duty, and then a delivery duty? Is not that so? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And only three duties a day? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Then the distance of these particular walks from the head 
 office is not very great. 
 
 A. No, the distance of none of them from tlie head office is great. Nearly 
 the whole of the heavy work of Liverpool is centred in the western district. 
 
 Q. How many flights of stairs are there to go up? 
 
 A. I cannot answer that question.
 
 200 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 Q. Weuld it be 50? 
 
 A. I am not prepared lo say. I should think that on this waJk there are 
 about 400 lots of letters to deliver, and there is a tremendous lot of stair 
 climbing. 
 
 Q. You heard some of the evidence received to-day, which rather dis- 
 puted that a stair-climbing walk was more fatiguing than one on even ground. 
 Is that your opinion? 
 
 A. I should say stair-climbing would be more exacting, but I see no reason 
 why there should be a difference in the payment. I should say that the 
 physical strain would be much greater. As a matter of ; fact, we have had 
 several men at Liverpool ^nt by the Medicai Officer to recruit their health 
 on walks where there is no stair-climbing. On the 5th I had 1 A weighed ; 
 it weighed 63 lbs. Man after man has told me he would sooner be dead 
 than the present slavery should continue. I have to ask that the door at 
 the east entrance of the Hea/3 Office, Liverpool, be opened for men coming 
 in with collections. This imposes an extra minute or two in walking on the 
 men, which has not been added to the times allowed for collections. I have 
 to request that the postmen doing most walking work be situate on the 
 ground floor in the new office, or that a hydraulic hoist be provided. Men 
 now have to cany from 40 to 120 lbs. of papers and parcels up a long flight 
 of stairs. I have to request that stone tables be dispensed with in the new 
 office for men to eat from, and that the kitchens have fires in winter, aa 
 have the clerks ; the indoor men are now starved to death in winter. I must 
 point out that conviction for irregularities is made easy in the postmen's 
 branch by the documents relating to the cases being withheld. The sorting 
 clerks and indoor postmen are furnished with the whole of such documents, 
 and the postmen claim similar treatment. A few years ago I had an ex- 
 planation in C.B. for mis-sorting a letter. I looked up the case and found, 
 though a postman in W.D. had regretted the error, etc., the letter could 
 by no possibility have reached the man's hand.".. In another case I had an 
 ixplanation for mis-sorting to E.D., but on opening the case I found the 
 letter had not been mis-sorted, but dropped in me E. district. Had I been 
 an outdoor man I would not have seen the papers, and, as is usual, would 
 have regretted, 'etc. I ask that the outdoor inspectorship be abolished as 
 an anomaly and cause of unnecessary irritation to the men. Only about 
 three or four towns have these positions yet, the remainder do very well 
 h'ithout them. Tlie spy system lately introduced in the American P.S. is 
 causing unlimited vexation and confusion, and I have here a paper contain- 
 ing extracts from independent American journals in regard to this. I call 
 attention to slight offences of postmen being exhibited on notice boards, while 
 no such usage is in practice as regards clerks, also that men are subjected 
 to petty annoyances. I have here a docket which I offer as an illustration. 
 You will observe it is marked in blue lead pencil, while the postman has to 
 mark in his walk in red ink before he goes out. If he takes out the docket 
 without having on it the blue lead mark, or without himself marking it with 
 red ink, an explanation will be called for, so he has to walk back perhaps 
 a mile and a quarter to get it marked. • 
 
 The Chairman. But surely it is not a difficult thing to carry out that in- 
 struction ? 
 
 A. No, but it causes unnecessary irritation. 
 
 Q. Why? 
 
 A. That he should have to do it. If a man in the office takes out the docket 
 without being so marked he has to give an explanation. Only the other day 
 a man was so vexed bv this red, white, and blue business that he spoke 
 rather impertinently. That was no doubt caused by irritation. 
 
 Q. Wliere does the irritation come in? 
 
 A. At having to do this thing.
 
 Special Cases — Liverpool. 20 1 
 
 The Chairman : But unless the docket is properly numbered it would be 
 of no use. 
 
 A. Under the. old system -vve could mark the dockets outside on the walks, 
 or when we had finished, in pencil, and it is quite sufficient. 
 
 Q. Wliat is the grievance? 
 
 A. The inspector writes on it in blue, and the man has to put the number 
 of his walk and section in red ink. If this condition is not complied with 
 the man has to give an^ explanation. 
 
 Q. The inspector does the blue figure? 
 
 A. Yes, and if the man takes the docket out without that blue figure on 
 it he will be punished. This system only appertains to one office — the Head 
 Office in Liverpool. It is not common to the remainder of Liverpool. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What occurs is that the inspector serves out the delivery 
 return in blue, and the man has to fill it up in red? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the grievance is that? 
 
 A. I am only giving it as an instance : of the petty annoyances the men are 
 subjected to. 
 
 Q. Do you meani that the annoyance is the requirement to write in a par- 
 ticular coloured ink? 
 
 A. It is having to do something exceptional. 
 
 Q. The requirement to write in red ink? 
 
 A. Yes ; a man cannot have red ink on his walk, and if it goes in without 
 'red ink it is a proof that the condition has not been complied with. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : If he does it in red ink before he starts there is no diflS- 
 culty? 
 
 A. No ; but then it is possible for Juiman nature not always to remember. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you put that grievance on the same level as the carry- 
 ing a weight of 120 lbs. ? 
 
 A. No ; I only give it as a small matter. 
 
 Q. You do not attach equal importance to it? 
 
 A. No, sir. Mr. Bednall asks for 2s. allowance to sorting clerks while 
 performmg night duties. Tlie highest rate of night duty in the C.B., Liver- 
 pool, is worked by sorting postmen. Tlie head office men work 14 weeks 
 out of 24 on night work, that is 58 jier cent., yet have only 12 days' ainnual 
 leave. In addition, they are ordered, when required, to work overtime after 
 night duty on one of the monster , walks I have described. There is an in- 
 struction by the late Postmaster to superintendents in C.B. not to work a 
 night officer on overtime after his night work, ypt this is no protection to 
 sorting postmen. Manchester and Birmingham, by a little forethought, do 
 without making their night duty men take out walks. Early in '91 a Secre- 
 tary's order was issued in Liverpool informing us £hat Bank Holidays, when 
 they began or ended the annual leave, would be allowed for by an extra day 
 being added to a man's leave, but not when they occurred in the middle of 
 such leave. This order wa^ observed in Liverpool till last year, when the 
 holidays were changed to begin on Sundays instead of Mondays, to do us out 
 of the day. We found London and Dublin were honourably observing the 
 Secretajry's order, but Liverpool were treading it under foot. We had one of 
 our M.P's. to intervene, and the old state of things was ordered to be re- 
 stored, yet, to our amazement, the August batch were actually changed from 
 the Monday to the Tuesday. I ask how we are to know where we stand if 
 local authorities act in this manner? We have sent on about 40 names of 
 Postmasters and superintendents who have sons and daughters in the P.O., 
 Liverpool, in higher positions as compared with about three children in of 
 the postmen. We do .so to show that a public benefit is being used for 
 private friends. A case has been told me of an inspector making an offer 
 to a foreman in a telephone company to befriend his son, on condition the 
 foreman gave employment to the inspector's brother. Overtime for Sundays,
 
 202 John Walsh,* Liverpool. 
 
 Christmas, and even the boot allowance is held over c';nd paid with the wages 
 in order to have a j>enny stamp out of postmen. The reverse treatment is 
 meted out to the sorting clerks at Liverpool. 
 
 At this stage the Committee adjourned till Tliursday. 
 
 Westminster, Thursday, 6th February, 1896. 
 
 The Departmental Committee on Post OflBce Administration resumed its 
 sittings to-day (Thur.sday) in the House of Lords Committee-room. Lord 
 Tweedmouth again presided. All members of the Committee were present, 
 and the room was crowded by Postmen, who evinced a lively interest in the 
 proceedings. The whole day was occupied with the taking of the evidence 
 of Mr. J. Walsh, of Liverpool, and the proceedings proved pretty lively at 
 times, as the Committee objected to receiving certain evidence by means of 
 which; the witness sought to rebut the claims of another class of P.O. em- 
 ployees. 
 
 Mr. Walsh, having taken his seat at the witness table, was examined by 
 Mr. Spencer Walpole as follows : — 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You said on Mondayi, " About eight months ago I was sub- 
 stitute for James Elliott on 12 C walk. He was regarded as one of the 
 strongest men in the Service. He died a^fter about a fortnight's illness. I 
 asked his sister what was the cause of death, and she told me the doctor 
 put it down to heart disease." Do you know the cii'cumstances of Elliott's 
 death? 
 
 A. No more than that, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you happen to know that a few weeks before his death he suffered 
 from a very severe attack of influenza? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know that he resumed duty against the express ad- 
 vice of our medical officer? 
 
 A. No, sir, I do not. 
 
 Q. And you do not know that he died of bronchitis? 
 
 A. I only go by what his sister told me, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you accept it from me — and I have it in the report of our m.edical 
 officer — that the cause of death was bronchitis, contracted through resuming 
 duty too soon after an attack of influenza? 
 
 A. I will accept it. Of course I rely upon the statement given to me. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you mean to say that vou have any evidence to support 
 it? 
 
 A. I have only the statement of the sister. Of course we know all about 
 Elliott. I worked with him and saw him. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you know his sister? 
 
 A. I had never met her before, nor have I done so since. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about this particular walk on which Elliott was 
 employed ? 
 
 A. Yes, I do. 
 
 Q. Do you know he was put on it on his own application? 
 
 A. I do, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know he never made any complaint that the walk was too 
 h«avy? 
 
 A. I can quite accept your statement, that he would not, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you quite aware he never made the slightest comi>laint, either to 
 the inspector or the medical officer, that the work was too heavyi? 
 
 A. If he did not make it to the medicjal ofl5cer, then his sister's statement 
 in that particular must be wrong.
 
 Special Cases — Liverpool. 203 
 
 Q. I am advisei thaft he could have ha<l a lighter walk if he had so desired, 
 
 but that he never gave the slightest hint to the inspector or the medical 
 officer that the work was too hard. Will vou accept that statement from 
 me? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I will. 
 
 Q. It was the 12 C walk he was on, was it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know the man employed on it now? 
 
 A. I do, sir — Richardson. 
 
 Q. Do you know he has told the inspector thajt. he has not any fault to 
 find with the walk as regards the finst delivery, iwhich is heavier than the 
 subsequent deliveries? 
 
 A . That is my own statement, sir ; but I say that the work for the whole 
 (lay is too much for one man. 
 
 Q. You say, further, that on this walk there is a great deal of climbing 
 staircases. 
 
 A. ^jo, sir. That is on the other side of the .same walk. 
 
 Q. It is walk 12 C I am referring to. 
 
 A. Y<;s ; anc a man would have to do the other side at the mid-day de- 
 livery. He would then take both sides and have a tremendous lot of stair- 
 climbing. 
 
 i). iJbt ] am advised that this walk is particularly free from stairs? 
 
 A. I told you in my opening statement, sir, that I did not find it above 
 the avi'rage. 
 
 Q. 'Iii;ni upon that point you have l)een reportel inaccurately? 
 
 A. ^1 h;it was my statement — that it. was not above the average in the 
 morning. 
 
 (>. Now let lis come to the B side of tlie same walk. 
 
 \. It should be A side. 
 
 Q. liufc 3 ou say "On the B side the inspector watched Little cnmunning 
 i-uinidi!''" 
 
 A. I should have said the A side. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Is that the walk of which you have been speaking? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is the same walk. It has four different sides. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say that Little carries from 40 to 90 lbs. of letters on 
 the delivery, and has had one hour's extra duty for leaving that immense 
 weight at the bottom of some stairs while he served the top offices. Do you 
 know that of .your own knowledge? 
 
 A. Little communicated to me that he had had an hour's duty for the bag 
 being found at the bottom of the stairs. What weight was in it, when it 
 was found, I do not know. It is generally said by the men that the outdoor 
 inspector, in order to make sure of a conviction, allows the men to go over 
 the hea\'iest portion of the walk, and then will find the bag at the bottom 
 of the stairs, when it is light enough to complete the charge against the 
 postman. 
 
 Q. Are you rightly reported in saying Little was punished with an hour's 
 extra duty for leaving that "immense" weight at the bottom of the stairs? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I am rightly reported. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that, at the time, the bag did not weigh above 20 lbs.? 
 
 A. I was not aware of it at the time, but I have heard it since. 
 Q. Will you accept the statement from me? 
 
 A. I will accept it, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then, since you made that sta,teuicnt, the " immense 
 weight " has come down to 20 lbs. ? 
 
 A. Allow me . 
 
 Q. Answer the question first, please. You said he had " an hour's extra 
 duty for leaving that immense weight at the bottom of the stairs." Do 
 you think you were justified in describing 20 lbs. as an immense weight?
 
 204 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 A. Will you allow me to complete my statement? Wlien I said that an 
 immense weiglit was left at tlie Vjottom of the stairs I was not aware at what 
 point the inspector found the bag. I have been made aware of it since by 
 a coniimmication from Liverpool. 
 
 Q. Have you been made aware since tliat the man on that occasion was 
 not going ujjstuii's at all, but was simply going down to the basement? 
 
 A. That makes very little ditferena\ He would have had to climb the 
 stairs again. Even if the bag only contained 20 lbs. weight, that does not 
 completely exjdain the case, because, when he left it at the bottom of the 
 stairs, the man would probably have had to take three or four bundles of 
 letters in his arms in order to 'deliver at the different offices, and therefore 
 the weight of those bundles ought to be added to the weight of the bag. 
 
 The Chairman : He would have served probably the whole building above 
 before lie went to the basement, surely? 
 
 A. It is not my custom. I do not know what Little's custom was, but I 
 servetl the basement first in order to get rid of the stuff. Of course I do not 
 know what Little's mode of doing the work was. 
 
 Q. But he would not take down to tlie basement the bundles he was after- 
 wards going to take to the toj) of the building? 
 
 A. Yes, he would probably do so in order to save oi)ening the bag a second 
 time. In order to facilitate delivery he would take out of the bag all that 
 Avas required for the building he was about to serve. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you aware that the place where his bag was left was 
 an exposed place, and that the bag might e^ily have been taken by any 
 passer-by ? 
 
 A. That is not what I am complaining about. 
 
 Q. Do. you think there is anything unreasonable in punishing a postman 
 for leaving a ba'g 20 lbs. in weight in a place where any passer-by might 
 take it? 
 
 A. My complaint against the authorities is this — they are well aware that 
 these heavy weights are now being carried, and they know it is impossible 
 for the men to aarry them up and down the buildings, yet they send round 
 an outdoor inspector to lash the men into doing what is an impossil)Llity. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that I had the bag on that particular walk weighed 
 yesterday, and that it weighed 53 lbs. ? 
 
 A. I am ; and I have a telegram here giving to-day's weights as tested by 
 the men on duty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Your allegation was that the bags weighed from 40 to 90 
 lbs. ? 
 
 A. That was an approximate sta.tement. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I a/lmit that 53 lbs. is too heavy ; I am not justifying it. 
 
 A. Thank you, sir. 
 
 Q. You said that Postman Little had undergone an operation for a twist 
 of the bowels, but you omitteJ to state when that was? 
 
 A Voice : About two years ago : 
 
 Q. Do you hap]:>en to know that it was five years ago? 
 
 A. I cannot fix the time. I merely made the statement as it was given 
 to me. It was generally believed by the men at the office that it was due 
 to overwork. 
 
 Q. Do you happen to know that Little, at that time, was away for rather 
 over two months, and that he has not been absent a single day through 
 illness since? 
 
 A. I cannot say as to that; but I nivseTx have only had six days' sick 
 leave in 19 years. I do not believe in sickness ; I believe only in being a 
 :dead man or a live man. I think the evidence whica has been given about 
 sick absence is not worth considering, nor is it a fit basis for statistics. 
 
 Q. I am not desiring to defend excessive work ; I am only anxious to coi'- 
 rect any misapprehension which might arise from what has been said.
 
 Special Cases — Liverpool. 205 
 
 A. And I, too, hope that you will kindly accept my statement tliat I am 
 only anxious to get at the truth, and if there is anj') defect or error in my 
 statement I shall only be too pleased if it can be found out. I do not want 
 you. gentlemen, to act on anything but the truth. 
 
 Q. Now I come to your own case — to your own experience on the 14 B 
 walk. You told us that the weight of :the bag on that walk on the 1st 
 December was 63 lbs. ? 
 
 A. No, sir. The first date I gave was when the weight was 47 lbs. 
 
 Q. Vers' well, I will take it vour wav. On the 29th November the weight 
 was 47 lbs.? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And on the Ist December it was 63 lbs.? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but I may possibly ba wrong in my dates. 
 
 Q. As a ni;»tter of fact, you were not on duty on the 1st December, were 
 you ? 
 
 A. Possibly I am wrong in my dates. I took a very hurried note. 
 
 Q. It is quite natural you may have made a mistake as to the date. Now, 
 did you make application for relief on any of those days? 
 
 a! No, I did not ; but I wals assisted on one occasion, not beciuise of the 
 heavy weights, but because the inspector thought there would be reports 
 through late delivery. I was a»sisted on that one morning, but I never askel 
 for assistance, as I do whatever work is set me. 
 
 Q. Why did you not ask for assistance? 
 
 A. Well, when assistance is given it does not proJuce a proper state of 
 things. There aji-e men in the Service, es|)ecially in Liverpool, who take 
 everything they can get in tlie shape of big walks, and farm them out to 
 assistants in order that they may get all the Christmas boxes. I believe it 
 will be admitted by the authorities in Liverpool that they have actually had 
 to punish men for trying to get more tJiaii their own walks to deliver. I 
 want this state of things to be thoroughly understood. I want it to be 
 realised that the system of Christmas boxes act against 'tlie men as well as 
 against the Department. 
 
 Q. Then, it was the knowledge that a portion of the Christmas boxes 
 would be forfeited th.'^lt prevented you applying for assistance? 
 
 A. No, sir. I do not get any Christmas boxes at all. It affects some men, 
 but it does not affect me. 
 
 Qv Then why did you not apply, for assistance if you had no interest in 
 the Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. I did not apply for assistance simply because the Inspector in all proba- 
 bility would have sa|id to me, " Walsh, if one man can do this work, you 
 can." I feel that I must not be behind other.? in doing my work. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You think it would have been refused ? 
 
 A. It would have been refused or reflected upon. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Now I come to the 16 B walk, which you refer to. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You stated that on the 29th the bag v.eighed 63 lbs.? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that on the next day it weighed one hundredweight? ' 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And tliat on the 6th it weighed 90 lbs., and on tlie 8th December it 
 weighed 120 lbs.? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I did not weigh the bags myself, but the man who was on 
 the walk did so, and it was witnessed by another man. I believe that on 
 the first occasion, when it weighel 63 lbs., I did weigh it. 
 
 Q. Quite so ; but again I think, probably, you have made a mistake, as 
 the 8th December was a) Sunday? 
 
 A. I have very probably made some mistakes in the dates, but not in the 
 l\cights. I took very hurried notes. I was overworked at the time both
 
 206 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 Jby the severity of the work of the office and the getting up of this case. 
 Still, that is a small matter in connection with this general statement. 
 
 Q. I believe it is perfectly true that thi.s walk is a very heavy walk, but 
 is it not a fact that there is always a hand-cart available for the postmen 
 on duty? 
 
 A. That has not always been the case. It lias only come into operation 
 in late years. 
 
 Q. But you are talking of last autunm. Was not the hand-cart available 
 at that time? 
 
 A. Certainly the men had a hund-cart on the mornings I speak of, but by 
 the rules of the Service we are, obliged to take the bag up and down the 
 buildings. The hand-cart is not always supplied. I believe it is only avail- 
 able two or three mornings a week, and if a man comes out before the liand- 
 cart starts or after it leaves, he has to carry the bag himself. On the 14 B 
 walk, as I mentioned before, I had to carry the bag every morning. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that on all these occasions that you mention in Decem- 
 ber last the hand-cart was available? 
 
 A. Yes, and I believe it was used. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fiict that on all these occasions, and especially on the 5th 
 and 8th December, when there w"ts these very heavy weights, the hand- 
 cart could have been used? 
 
 A. Yes, probably that would have been the case. 
 
 Q. I admit it was a verjidieavy weight, but was it not due to the fact 
 of the arrival of the American mails? 
 
 A. Yes ; and during the two months preceding Christmas the work was 
 very heavy. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact th;i|t the men on duty have only to carry the bag from 
 the first floor down to the ground floor, and then out to the hand-cart, and 
 that they do not have to carry it on any other occasion? 
 
 A. They have to carry it from the first floor to the ground floor, and then 
 to the hand-cart, but after tliat they w;^.k with it upon their delivery. 
 
 Q. I am advised that they only have to carry it from the first floor to the 
 ground floor. 
 
 A. But in addition to that they have to carry it while serving their walk. 
 
 The Chaii'man : Then how does the system work? 
 
 A. The hand-cairt only goes as far as the Exchange, and then the man takes 
 his bag out of it. It is only for a few very heavy bags. 
 
 Q. What is the object? Is it to take the bags from the office to the com- 
 mencement of the walk? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And at the commencement of the walk the postman takes the bag on 
 his shoulders and goes up and down each staircase with it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole. Then it is not the same as the Parcels Post, in which the 
 postman takes the hand-cart from house to house? 
 
 A. No, it is not, sir. The postmen sometimes find it of very little use, 
 because it starts before they come out. It only takes six or seven bags. 
 
 Q. You also stated that you never think of applving for relief in Liver- 
 pool? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you add that "The rule thei-e lias been to deny everj'thinir the 
 postmen ask for "' ? ° 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you adhere to that statement? 
 A. I do, sir. I atlhere to that statement. 
 Q. Do you mean that everything the postmen ask for is refused?
 
 Special Cases — Liverpool. 207 
 
 A. My own experience is thaitJ there is a set, "No" to every application 
 from the men. I have spoken to many of them, and that is tlie invariable 
 answer I have received. 
 
 Q. Does that applv to everything? 
 
 A. I do not say tliat. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that you applied in May last for special leave to attend 
 a postmen's meeting in London? 
 
 A. With regard to personal matters of that kind I have been rather kindly 
 treated. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that yon tendered a vote of thanks to the Postmaster 
 of LiveriKJol for his kindness on one occasion? 
 
 A. Yes ; and I am glad to tell all that can tell in favour of the Post- 
 master as truly as all that tells against him. 
 
 Q. But in your last evidence you did not tell very much in his favour. 
 
 A. But my evidence wants to be completed. I do not think that you 
 will feel that the condition of the Liverpool Head Office is one that par- 
 ticularly reflects credit upon the responsible authority. I am very sorry 
 indeed to make this exhibition of the office. 
 
 Q. You say, "I have to complain of the work at the head office as mur- 
 derous " ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that no man at the liead office works more than eight 
 hours a day, and that the average amount is rather less? 
 
 A. That may be tlie amount of attendance, but the men live a great dis- 
 tance from their walk, and they feel that they ought to have some credit 
 for that. I do not think the work is over the average in point of hours. 
 
 Q. Then it is not "murderous" in respect to the length of the work? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it is the severity of the work. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that the men on the two heaviest walks have been on 
 tlie same duty, one for twenty and tlie other for thirty years? 
 
 A. Do you mean Little and Morrison? 
 
 Q. I do not know the names, but is not that the length of the service? 
 
 A. I know that the man on A iwalk is periodically away for three, or 
 even five weeks during the heaviest seasons — ^during the principal seasons 
 for the fruit and provision trades, and one merchant snid to the substitute 
 that he did not know how it was that the Department allowed this kind of 
 thing to go on year after year, without tiiking notice of it, for he, as a 
 provision merchant, was considerably inconvenienced through new men com- 
 ing on to the district so frequently. 
 
 Q. I want to ask one other question. Will you take it from me that all 
 the bags were weighed yesterday morning? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and I have a telegram sapng that they were weighed again 
 this morning. 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that no bag weighed above 68 lbs. ? 
 
 A. I liave not the figures of yesterday. I have only those for this morn- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. Will you take it from me that the averaige weight of all the heavy 
 bags was only 39 lbs. ? 
 
 A. That would be a very moderate statement. I thmk my statement it 
 mj"^ own e^idence was that it would be aVjout 40 lbs. One ought to do these 
 things very deliberately in order to arrive at the truth. The weights should 
 1)6 taken regularly for weeks and even for months, and should include the 
 first and last days of the month, and first and last days of the quarter. In 
 the present instance things have been done much more rapidly. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You will quite understand why we have done things rapidly, 
 I was anxious to test to-day the e\'idence you gave on Monday, and, there- 
 fore, it was necessary to 1)6 rapid. 
 
 A. Not, I liope, anxious with the intention of getting the upper hand of 
 me, or of tripping me up?
 
 208 John Walsh, LivMipo)!. 
 
 Q. You will have seen by tlic questions I liave asked that I have tried to 
 put it fairly? 
 
 A. You have, sir. 
 
 Q. And I.liave taken steps to give relief where relief is required. 
 
 A. Thank you, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : I suppose it is only on individual walks that individual 
 hien have to carry these heavy weights? 
 
 A. It is very general in the head office. There are very few exceptions. 
 
 The Chairman : You told us in your evidence that the average weight of 
 the bags is 40 lbs. If the average weight is 40 lbs. it stands to reason tha'j 
 there cannot be a very greiit number of lieavy bags. Is not that", so? 
 
 A. Well, it stands to reason that the heavy Ixigs must be very heavy, as 
 there are some walks wJiere a man has to carry only 7, 11, or 13 lbs., there- 
 fore the other bags must be very hea^v\^ 
 
 Q. There caniiot l>e very many of them. How many bags go out? 
 
 A. I should say that tlie whole of the second section was very heavy — 
 Nos. 9 to 16. 
 
 Q. How many bags do you include in the number on which you take your 
 average of 40? 
 
 A. Roughly, I should say 16. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean that, roughly, 16 were over the average? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : You yourself use the tenn " average," and put it as 40 lbs. 
 per bag. Do you take that average from a series of 16 bags? 
 
 A. With 16 bags tJie average is 40 lbs. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But there are more tlian 16 bags carried through Liver- 
 pool, are there not? 
 
 A. Oh, yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Smith : The point is not quite clear yet. Do you me;in that the 
 average of 16 bajgs is 40 lbs., or that there are 16 bags with 40 lbs. and 
 upwards ? i 
 
 A. I am giving the average in every case. 
 
 Q. Then there are some less and some more than 40 lbs. in those 16 bags? 
 
 A. I go farther than that, and say I believe there are certain mornings 
 when the average iweight for the wliole office and for every man would be 
 40 lbs. 
 
 Q. That is on special days? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. and at certain times of the year. 
 
 Q. And you say that would be the average weight for the wliole office, 
 taking the light walks as well as the heavy walks? And on ordinary days 
 you say the average would hold good for at least 16 bags? 
 
 A. I think so, sir. I have here a telegram which I received just now, 
 giving the result of the weighings of the bags this' morning. It is as fol- 
 lows : 
 
 "Men weighed bags this morning. Result — Walk 13 C. 39 lbs.; 8 C, 
 36 lbs. ; 9 A. 52 lbs. : 11 C, 40 lbs. ; 9 B, 43 lbs. ; 12 A. 50 lbs. ; 9 C, 60 
 lbs. ; 10 C, 53 lbs. ; 11 B, 75 lbs. ; 13 B, 46 lbs. ; 15 B, 43 lbs. ; 4 B, 43 
 lbs. ; 1 D, 57 lbs. ; 12 C, (the walk about which there has been so much 
 talk). 54 lbs. ; 9 E, 43 lbs. ; 16 C, 40 lbs. ; 14 B, 52 lbs. ; 14 A. 42 lbs. ; 
 10 A, 70 lbs. ; 16 E. 49 lbs. ; 1 B, 53 lbs. ; 16 A. 49 lbs. ; and 16 B (the 
 walk as to which I stated the weight was 120 lbs.), was this morning 105 
 lbs." 
 
 Mr Walpole : It was 62 lbs. yesterday. 
 
 A. Yes, the last bag weighed to-day was 11 A, 53 lbs. There are some 
 words attached to the telegram which I do not quite understand, and, there- 
 fore, I will not put them in. 
 
 The Chairman : What, in your opinion, would be a weight which a roan 1 
 could satisfactorily deliver?
 
 special Cases — Liyerpool. 209 
 
 A. Before I answer that question I should like to cleax- up a misapprehen- 
 sion wliich has arisen from the way in which the press reported my evidence 
 last Monday. 
 
 Q. Bu* what do you think would be a fair weight? 
 
 A. I think 30 lbs. would be a fair weight. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: la not that the general limit? 
 
 A. I think 35 lbs. is the limit in Belfast and London. 
 
 Mr. Walix)le : You do not think that the Department enforce that limit 
 Unreservedly in London and the rural districts? 
 
 A. No, sir, I do not think so. But the Chairman is asking me to indicate 
 if there could be any set weight. 
 
 The Chairman : It is absolutely impossible to say that a bag sliall weigh 
 so much and no more, morning after morning. 
 
 A. Will you permit me now to correct a statement which has l)een rejwrted 
 in the press, and has given rise to some misapprehension? It is as to bulk- 
 ing letters into the letter-boxes. The statement in the press was given as 
 if the practice of bulking the letters into the boxes applied to one particular 
 walk. It appeared as if it only applied to 12 C walk. As a matter of fact, 
 my experience in Liverpool during 19 years is that it is the common prac- 
 tice. There are more letters to deliver now than at the time we were accus- 
 tomed to look them through. Tha work has grown so greatly that we have 
 had to put the letters in bundles in the boxes, for, if we were to attempt 
 to go through them at the doors it would be 10 o'clock before the first de- 
 livery was finished, insteitd of 8.30 or 9. 
 
 The Chairman : But before you start you tie up the letters in bundles, do 
 you not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Before you start from the office? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; we sort them all there. 
 
 Q. And therefore all you fail to do now is to check that sorting at the 
 particular house of delivery? 
 
 A. Yes ; we do not go over it again. Sometimes the sorting has to be 
 done under an artificial light in the sorting-office, and therefore it is a great 
 advantage to check it in the clear daylight outside. 
 
 Q. Still, I suppose you wUl not say that 40 lbs., or even more, would 
 be too great a burden to put on a man ,on one of these comparatively short 
 walks from time to time? 
 
 A. Well, it. would be better in order to safeguard the man to make it 
 35 lbs. The rule not to exceed that is strictly caiTied out both in London 
 and in Belfast. There, whenever the bag is over 35 lbs., assistance is givec. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Of course, thajt is subject to the possibility of affording 
 assistance. It is not always possible, even in London, to help a man on the 
 occasion of a heavy delivery? 
 
 A. No, sir, and we do not want to liandicap the Department unduly. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I only want to correct an impression you have probably 
 givcu rise to. There are occasions when it is impossible to give this relief. 
 
 A. Well, if there is a set rule we should try to work up to it. 
 
 The Chairman : You had better proceed with your statement now. 
 
 Witness : My lord, in assisting Mr. M'Laren to lay before you causes why 
 postmen throughout the country should have better wages, I ask only justice 
 and not privilege. Justice is; represented by a pan- of scales ; the Govern- 
 ment employer I regard as the balance ; if the balance favour tlie right side 
 or the left, it is the cause of deprivation to the side not favoured ; if its 
 lines or laws are not straight, and subjects at a distance suffer by reason 
 of the greed of opposing sections, the balance, by being rightly informed 
 by the sufferers may, if willing, again become a true dispenser of justice. 
 My lord, justice can know nothing of privilege. The judge who hangs one 
 criminal and favours another by dismissal from punishment, for a like offence,
 
 ^lO John Walsh, Liverpcol. 
 
 murders the one lie has executed. I find there are 24,556 postmen esta,blLshed 
 in tlie United Kingdom, and that their average wages at tlie maximum is 
 £1 5s. 5|d. a week, their minimum 16s. 0|d., and their mean wages £1 Os. 
 ll^d. per week. There are 500 at fixed wages, whose average is 14s. a 
 week ; several of these receive 10s. 6d. and lis. per week, and two at Kendal 
 get 3s. 6d. per week each, while one at C'litheroe gets 4s. a week. I take 
 these from the estimates. There are 9.900 pos-tmen at p^ maximum of 22.S. 
 p-ir week and under. These have an average maximum of 19s. lOd., a mini- 
 mum of 15s. 4id., and a mean wage of 17s. 7^d. per week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole. Are you dealing solely with established postmen? 
 \. Yes, solely with established postmen. 1 have nothing to do with the 
 ouxiliarie? at this point. 
 
 (). And you are dealing with the whole of the United Kingdom? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I suppose there are allowances? 
 
 A I was under the impression that in the estimates no man was included 
 unlcsi: he was an established postman. 
 
 Q. Bi'.": the auxiliary jx^stmen certainlv must come in. 
 
 A. I believe that in the estimates for the i)rovinces so much is allowed for 
 auxi'iaries, but so far as London and Dublin are concerned the auxiliaries 
 are nau'eil. 
 
 Q. A man at 4s. a week must be an auxiliary ; that stands to reason. 
 
 A. I simply go upon the estimates. On communicating with Clitheroe I 
 found the man got 9s. for doing extra deliveries. We complain that men 
 are t^iken on at very small wages, and then some other allowances are piled 
 on them in ri'Sjwct of which they get no pensions. I have here a letter 
 from the place stating that it is correct tliat this man got an allowance for 
 doing two extra duties. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: He must be an auxiliary? 
 
 A. Well, I do not think anyone is included in these estimates except those 
 on the establishment. I believe the heading is " Established Postmen." I 
 find inconsistencies neither based on reason or justice, in the ainde.ss methoJ 
 of paying postmen doing similar work in the various towns dis-similar wages. 
 At Harrogate, the most wealthy and fashionalile inland watering-jilace in the 
 kingdom, with a population of 20,000, swollen in summer to 40.000, which 
 increases the cost of living and rents, the established postmen number 20, and 
 they are paid a maximum of 22s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you sure of that? 
 
 A. That is the statement I get from Harrogate. Tlie very lowest rented 
 houses to be had there are 6s. 7d. per week. Tlie rates of wages in Harro- 
 
 fate are : Joiners, Sjd. per hour ; bricklayers, 9d. ; slaters, 7^. ; painters, 
 id., masons, 8|d. ; plumbers, 8d. ; plasterers, 8d. ; and labourers, 6id. ; a 
 mean of these is 7 15-16d. Tlie postmen's rate is 5^. per hour, including 
 emoluments. At the mean, that is 2 7-16d. per hour less than the other 
 rates. 
 
 The Chairman : Including emoluments. Does that include stripes ? 
 
 A. Yes. I believe it includes everything the postman gets. 
 
 Q. Does that include uniform? 
 
 A. I cannot say that. 
 
 Q. When you say emoluments and use the word as an inclusive term rou 
 should be prepared to tell us what the emoluments are? 
 
 A. I should say they include all Sunday pay. Probably postmen do not 
 think the uniform is an emolument. 
 
 Q. Does it include stripes? 
 
 A. Y^es, sir. Tlie men hold the view rather that they should be paid for 
 wearing the uniform instead of being taxed for it. One section of clerks at 
 Liverpool refused to wear blouses because of their pride, yet, when they 
 comjjare our position with their own, they include in our emolu-
 
 Wages — A ggreQ;ate. 211 
 
 ments our uniform. There are 30 towns with less population 
 and less established postmen than Harrogate receiving 24s. and 
 26s. minimum. There are 11 towns with larger populations 
 but less establislied postmen receiving 24s. and 26s. per week. There 
 are 12 waterint^ towns with about the same jropulation, but apain less post- 
 men getting 24s., but to cap all there are 16 towns in the Harrogate sur- 
 veyor's district {N. E.) with less population or less established postmen than 
 Harrogate, receiving 24s. and 26s. ma.ximum. The influx of extra work per- 
 formed by men situat-ed in these pleasure resorts, under the sweating system 
 of extended delivery, makes theii* summer a perpetually recurring Christmas, 
 without the .Christmas overtime. This is a point that constitutes a very 
 sore grievance among the Liveri)ool men, but as it will be de;dt with by Mr. 
 Dowling I will simply put in ilr. Rich's statement upon it. 
 
 The Chairman: \\liat do you mean by "making summer sn perpetually 
 recurring Christmas " ? 
 
 A. It is the heav}' work. 
 
 8ir F. Mowatt : And it does not carry with it Christmas boxes — (laughter)? 
 
 A. No, sir. This is an account of an interview I had with Mr. Rich on 
 the subject, ;and I put it in because I think it indicates a' way out of the 
 difficulty. 
 
 The Chairman: Wlio is Mr. Rich? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The postmaster at Liverpool. 
 
 Witness : It is a vexetl rpiestion, and I think Mr. Rich's remarks are as 
 good as any that could be offeree! . I wish to put in this statement now of 
 Iiis views. Mr. J. D. Rich's views on overtime, stated just before the 
 deputation re the unemployed anl overtime to the late Postmaster-General, are 
 accepted as a fair solution of the extended delivery difficulty by Liverpool 
 postmen, Init were never fulfilled. After the said unemployed deputation, 
 Mr. Rich .sent for me anl siid, "If I do not observe strict economy, I am 
 myself to blame ; when there is extra work I expect men, as in all employ- 
 ments, to put forth extra effort to C(])e with it. Yet, I do not think high 
 pressure the ideal state. If a man Ir^ve an unusual amount of work for a 
 delivery, he must not be his own judge, but must call the inspector's atten- 
 tion to it ; and the inspector, agreeing that there is work to detain him an 
 hour over liis 8 hours, he will be i>:iid extra for it. If I were an inspector," 
 continued the postmaster, "and a man represent-ed he had one hour's work 
 extra, and I wius of opinion he had only fifteen minutes. I would place 
 on his walk a ;,'ood worker, instructing him to do the delivery fairly, and 
 tlien if I found it took this man only fifteen minutes, I would punish the 
 first man for falsehood — firstly, in the public interest, and secondly, in his 
 own, so that he should not make himself lialde to prosecution for wilful 
 delay of letters. If an inspector acts unfairly, it is open to a man to seek 
 redress ; and if a doubt exists in the mind of an inspector as to the sufficiency 
 of the overwork, I desire the benefit of such doubt to be given in favour 
 of the man." In practice this ; has been entirely repudiated ; an appeal 
 against an inspector we would not think of, as the superior must lie upheld, 
 and, in all cases, sided with ; but sweating by overwork being crushed into 
 the ordinary work was never greater than since the unemployed question in 
 Liverpool. 
 
 Witness (continuing his statement) : In London, Liverpool, Glasgow, Man- 
 chester, and Dublin, there are no junior postmen. In Birmingham, Leeds, 
 York, Southport, Portsmouth, Southampton, Middlesboro', Twickenham, 
 Stockton-on-Tees. Leicester, Kingston-on-Tliames, Hull, Croydon, and Ches- 
 ter there are. Even in these latter there are four different rates of mini- 
 mum, and two of maximum: — 1, 15s. : 1, 13s. ; 4, 14s. ; and 8, 12s. ; Bir- 
 mingham, 17s. maximum ; the remainder 16s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You mean 17s. minimum, surely? 
 
 A. No, maximum ; 15s. is the minimum.
 
 212 John Walstt, Liverpool. 
 
 Q. Then you are referring to tlie junior postmen? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Witness : Why is tlie minimum more in Birmingham than in Leeds and 
 Yoik? Wiiy is it more in Portsmouth tlian in .Soutliampton? Wiiy have IJir- 
 mingliam junior jx)stmen while Liverpool, Manchester, etc., iiave none? Why 
 liad Manclieirter 27 per cent, of its apimiutel {>ostmen paid less than 248. a 
 week, while London lias hardlv 1 per cent., Liveri)ool 3i, ajid Glasgow 11^? 
 Mr. Walpole: Are these t)ie percentages of the junior fwstmen to the 
 regular staff? 
 
 A. Oh, no, sir. I am( givuig the rate of wages in the towas I have 
 nametl. 
 
 Q. Really, it is a series of conundrums you are asking us — (laughter). 
 What we want are facts. 
 
 A. And I want to prove the inconsistency of the whole situation. 
 Q. But you say only 1 par cent, of the postmen in London are paid less 
 than 243. a week. Tlie state of things is absolutely the reverse. It must 
 be. 
 
 A. I am taking the rates from the Estimates, and I say that the maximum 
 rate is less than 1 T)er cent. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : "i ou jwrticularly distinguish between the appointed post- 
 men and the juniors? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you say only 1 per cent, of the London appointed postmen are 
 receiving less than 24s. ? 
 
 A. I tiike it from the Estimates. 
 
 Mr. Wcflpole : Are you taking the maximum scales? 
 
 A. In this case I am. At Manchester 27 per cent, were paid less until the 
 present Postmaster-Grcneral raised 'the maximum to 30s. And these were 
 men living almost in Manchester itself. 
 
 Q. But that has all been altered during the last twelve months? 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Q. And the whole question falls with Manchester? 
 A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. I really thought y»u meant fthey were now getting less than 24s. » 
 week. Now I understand you mean they were till recently? 
 
 Mr. Smith : How manv men are paid on a scale which does not rise above 
 24s.? 
 
 A. I should prefer my statement going in as it is. 
 
 Q. But it is not correct. 
 
 A. Oh. yes, it is. I thmk you will find consistency in it. Why are bag 
 men. messengers, etc., paid wages from 38s. to 45s. in London, Edinburgh, 
 a.nd Dublin, while in Liverpool. Manchester. Glasgow. Birmingham, etc., 
 men doing similar work are paid by the miserable method of allowance which 
 they may hold for twenty years and then be deprived of, when about to 
 lie pensioned ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There, again, you are making a most confusing statement. 
 Of course no bagmcpi in London goes above 383. You join the different 
 classes together. 
 
 A. i have to do that. 
 
 Q. But it does not make it clearer. Y'ou know it is not quite true. 
 
 A. You cannot adduce any reason why men should be paid wages in 
 London, Dublin, and Edinburgh, and why the men in the provinces should 
 be paid les.s for the same work, and then only in the form of ajlowances. 
 The only reason is that it may give the Department the advantage of being 
 able to deprive them of the allowance when it chooses. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There are a certain number of postmen who get an aJlow- 
 ance for bagman duty in addition to their wages, which brings the total 
 up to nearly the same scale.
 
 Wases — Ag^reofate. 213 
 
 'OD 
 
 A. Quite so, but we want it in the form of wages and not allowances. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Is this going on now, or is it something that occurred 
 two years ago? 
 
 A. No, sir ; this is not old liistory. (Laughter.) At Liverpool three men 
 on tiie door of the Parcel Post Office are rotating and doing the same work. 
 One of t)ie three gets only 3s. allowance, the other two 5s. ejich. About 
 five years a,go, in drawing up a petition to get sorting postmen paid sick 
 pay on allowance, I found that men doing similar duty hat! been receiving 
 what we were asking for. for ye;irs previously at Manchester and Birming- 
 liam ; they were also getting pro rata their allowance in overtime pay. 
 We ^^ere immediately granted the s:ime, although we had tried previously 
 and failed. The old method was " Don't tell the postmen at Manchester 
 what you are getting." Keep it dark, so to speak, but we looked upon this 
 deprivation as a gross injustice, and the men at Manchester got raised to 
 the 30s.. while their colleagues in Manchester and their fellow suburban 
 men at Liverpool have had it for ye;us, have been dealt with previously in 
 a Avay in wliich I trust the Department will in future l>e ashame<l to <leal 
 with its men. I may mention that the very reverse is now taking place in 
 Mancliester. We were then without sick pay on allowances. They are 
 now without it, altliough several other towns are getting it. Manchester 
 is actually in the position we were a little over five years ago. 
 
 ARMY TREATMENT OF POSTMEN. 
 
 This is the subject de;ilt with in the third branch of my remarks. 
 Mr. Walpole : ^\^lat do you me^in by "army tre<itment?" 
 Witness : Mr. Bailcock, in his evidence, compared the overseers with 
 the non commissione<l officers in the army. Tlie order, uniformity, and 
 philosophy in governing the army and prcKlucing its contentment would fit 
 the Post Office about as well as the postman's uniform lits him, that is, 
 where it touches, nie purcliase of human energy, bone, and sinew in the 
 cheapest market, and the sale of it in the dearest, with its privilege and 
 depression, forms a per{)etual lever for unsettlement and contention, and 
 woul3, if applied to the army, as it exists in the Post Office, lead to mutiny 
 or even chaos. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you are going a little away from your case. 
 What we want to hear is the postmen's case, and what they have got to say. 
 We do not want to go into a general disquisition. 
 
 A. I shall bring it to a crisis. I am dealing with the conditions of our 
 work. 
 
 Q. But what Mr. Badcock said in his evidence was with regard to the 
 condition of the sorters. We have now got to a separate class of the Post 
 Office altogether. I do not think it comes within your office to criticise the 
 evidence given on another suliject altogether. 
 
 A. Independent though these sections may appear of each other, they 
 can hardly be separated. It is the only way of doing us justice. 
 
 Q. We want to hear everything you liave got to say on behalf of the 
 postmen. 
 
 A. And I shall bring it in with regard to postmen. 
 
 The Chairman : I have given you a considerable amount of latitude. You 
 must not abuse that. 
 
 A. I hope I shall not do so. I am only dealing with this point in order 
 to introduce another subject. The great army of postmen outnumber the 
 other sections coml:)ined. yet they, their overseers and inspectors, are des- 
 pised and insulted by the privileged sections. Mr. Walpole sjTnpathised 
 with Mr. Nicholson in his Joss of dignity when supervised by a feniale. 
 Is the Secretary aware that, though there is nothing relating to it in our 
 rule books, we are compelled to "Mr." provincial sorting clerks, even while 
 they are mere boys? Is he aware that, in every instance where an official
 
 214 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 document is headed by the title "Mr.," the "Mr." is struck out before it 
 Ls handed to a postman for .use, so that the doctor, wlio, before would 
 have treated one with the respect due to any well-behaved person, is re- 
 lieved of this necessity wlien he sees that the official desire is that the f>o8t- 
 man l>e called in the manner convicts are culled, i.e., Number so-and-so, 
 Postman Walsh. My lord, I do not tliink that you have .suffered either in 
 dignity or Tuanhood by treating us in this Imjuiry as men. I have seen the 
 notice put up for a man's funeral minus the "Mr.," although the corpse of 
 the dead soldier is saluted by his officer. 
 
 HOW AMERICAN POSTMEN ARE TREATED. 
 
 I asked tiie secretary of the American letter-carriers whether the nee<l 
 to earn one's bread, as a postman, subjected the men there to tliese in- 
 sulting methods. In his country, he answered, such usage was unknown ; 
 they " sired " no clerks there ; ind^-ed, the precarious condition of their 
 clerks needed the carriers' pity. I liave known junior clerks checked for 
 speaking to postmen because of their superior position. I have heard of 
 sorting clerks demur to being comjielled to sort l»eside postmen, and being 
 upheld. I have seen them risk delaying a despatch and stand idly by, wait- 
 ing for a postman to tie and seal tiieir bags, because it would degrade them 
 to do such work. The vanity and dignity of these clerks costs the country 
 dearly, for much of the indoor postmen's work consists of waiting on them. 
 The London sorters arc a useful body of men ; I have seen them at work 
 sorting and pulling bags about and mixing gem-rally up with the work. I 
 am one of a number of postmen at Liverpool who took over the city sorting 
 thirteen years ago. I have l)een doing it ever since. I can speak for the 
 usefulness of this class at Liverpool. It was introduced against the op- 
 position and prejudice of superintendents and sorting clerks, and. I believe, 
 6U])ported. for a time alone, by Mr. Rich and Mr. Fardo. We were for 
 years insulted and })aclly treated, but have lived it down, with the result 
 "that the superintendents who were most opposeil have over and over again 
 praised our work. Now, the sorters complain, in evidence, that much of 
 their work is porters' work, and they wish to be relieved of it, and be called 
 sorting clerks. Notice, it is not division of labour for efficiency but for 
 pride, in order that the said porters may wait on them. Thus section 
 after section of men begin, create privileges, impose the liardships and in- 
 digmities on new-comers, make secure the ramparts erurrounding their 
 privileges, and draw up the ladder that others may not enter. 
 
 Mr. "Walpole : Is it necessary for your case that you should abuse your 
 co-officers ? 
 
 A. I hope I am not abusing them. I am showing the distinctions that 
 are drawn. Postmen have suffered greatly through them, and have been 
 looking forward to this exposition 30 years to my knowledge. Thirty-one 
 years iigo all entered as first, second, third, and fourth class sorters. 
 Throughout the country the most fitted for certain work were, for the most 
 part, put to it. The sorters became consolidated into a separate section, 
 known now in the provinces as sorting clerks. The supervisors, in most 
 cases, were chosen from them, and between the supervisors and these clerks 
 they have managed to completely oust the postman from almost every posi- 
 tion and emolument in the Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You are representing provincial postmen. Wliere are the 
 supervisors at Liverpool? 
 
 A. I speak for every section. 
 
 Q. But you are now speaking of a section with which vou have nothing 
 to do? 
 
 A. I am comparing our case with theirs. 
 
 Q. Supervisors do not exist in the provinces?
 
 Wages — Aggregate — Educational Tests. 215 
 
 A. We use the term in regard to the superintending and governing staff 
 in the provincial offices. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You use it in a general sense in all provincial offices? 
 
 A. Yes ; we so describe the governing jwwer in all provincial offices. 
 The sorting clerks have petitioned over and over again that the sorting 
 postmen be abolislied, not in the interests of efficiency or public good, but 
 in order that one first-class clerk may be created to every second-class one 
 made to fill our places. Mr. Rich told me, on one occasion, that they sub- 
 jnitted to him a scheme showing how much could be saved by turning the 
 postmen out. The everlasting bid for privilege by these sections having 
 Ijeen ever readily conceded is the cause of the gross injustice of which 
 jm.stmen to-day complain. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : AMien you say "readily conceded," is it not a fact it has 
 not been conceded, and that vou remain as sorting postmen at Liverpool 
 still? 
 
 A. Oh, I will show that they have lots of privileges. 
 
 Q. But you are referring t>o a particular demand for the abolition of 
 sorting postmen? 
 
 A. I am referring to the privileges in general, sir. It is the knowledge 
 that hard work and new inventions in discipline are for postmen, while the 
 notice board is continually covered by the promotions of small and already 
 overpaid sections, that has filled postmen with sullen discontent, and made 
 them in Liverpool, of late years, refuse testimonials to high official after 
 high official. 
 
 EDUCATIONAL TESTS AND GRADE DEFERENCE. 
 
 The clerks asked for a higher educsitional test for entrance, and it was 
 granted, though 10 per cent, of the clerks at pre.sent in the Service could 
 not pass it; but it was required to keep postmen down, and it has iicted. 
 If it had not another barrier could have been made, and, indeed, has been 
 added, namely, the candidate must be under a certain age, and if this fails 
 there is still another expedient. At present, in Liverpool, four postmen 
 have passed the preliminar\' examination, but they are kept back, while 
 boys from the telegraph branch are transferred to fill up the vacancies 
 in ('.B. To show the vagaries of this class of business, the assumption of 
 the Department is that a higher education is necessary to efficiently mani- 
 l)ulate letters, therefore postmen cam ot sort without it. The sorting postmen 
 referred to took the work over from the clerks, nearly all of whom are 
 now superintendents and clerks, Avhile the sorting postmen, with the ex- 
 ception of six young men, are stationary as postmen. I remember Avhen the 
 clerks did the sorting ; two sections — sixteen men — were frequently kept 
 from walks sorting an hour at the clerks' mis-sorts. Two postmen can now 
 keep the mis-sorts and re-directed clear. I have been ordered by Mr. 
 Richai'dson and other superintendents, at Christmas time, to show up letters 
 posted, or going through Manchester on the 22nd and 23rd of December, 
 and getting into our hands on the 26th of December. I inquired of the 
 Manchester postmen if they did forward sorting at Christmas to any ex- 
 tent, and was informed that they were not allowed, except what was known 
 as four-lotting. Nine-tenths of the forward primary sorting at Liverpool 
 is done by postmen, and Mr. Rich never allowed dignity to keep the public 
 four days without their letters. He swarmed the sorting desks with post- 
 men, and for nineteen years, with Liverpool's inconvenience of office and 
 fittings, I have never known a letter to be kept behind, without it was a 
 mis-sort to the locals, which, of course, were not sorted till later on. I 
 must qualify that statement. Last year was, unfortumxtely, an exception to 
 the case, but if postmen were admitted into the despatching rooms and made 
 acquainted with the work there, the difficulty could soon be got over. 
 About four first-class sorting clerks at a maxunum of 56s. per week deliver
 
 21C .Tons AValsh, Liverporjl, 
 
 letters from tlie box ; tliese are merely postmen whom tlie piililic come to, 
 instead of their going to the public. >S«^,nil them to try the doubtful letters 
 of box tiniis and do the out-door dcdivery, and they would receive 30s. 
 instead of 56s. A large sum is paid to have a London mail due in Liver- 
 pool at 6.10 a.m., met at Urewe and sorte<l, in order that merchants may 
 he convenienced at Liveri)<)ol. Three sorting clerks are put on this work, 
 some of whom do not know the main streets in Liverpool. They object to 
 stamping and tieing up when at the he:id office, but there is a 12s. allowance 
 for travelling, so they pocket their dignity, and stamp, seal, and tie up. 
 Should the train be late, these men have the extra time of the delay, but 
 they are helpless ; they cannot sort the west or commercial portion of tlie 
 city into walks. Tlie train arrives at 7 a.m., or five minutes fiast, but the 
 letters are not sorted, and tlie jxvstmen have to be desp.itched without, 
 while two .sf)rting jx)stmen hive to be piid overtime to sort the mail. I 
 sort for a whole night, b;ig off pijiei-s and parcels, and enclose tlie register 
 bag and unixiid, fill in the time bill, and des[)atch the van. but a first- 
 class clerk has to come and sign for the unpaid and register bag. The pf>stmun's 
 intelligence is not adeijuate to initialling the bills, so a 56s. man's time must 
 be wasted. 
 
 POSTMEN VERSUS SORTERS. 
 
 The Chairman : It seems to me tliat your evidence amounts to this — You 
 think that the <litference between the sorting clerks and the postmen should 
 be abolished, and that }>ostmen and sorting clerks should l>e interchangeable? 
 
 A. Quite no ; and I maintiin that I can establish that by figures as I 
 go on. It is the claim of the London postmen also. For 14 years I have 
 l)een about 10 months a year at local sorting, but I must admit that my 
 intelligence, presence of mind, and judgment have never been taxed to the 
 same extent at sorting as on delivery. Take one walk — for example. Old 
 Hall Street-^for the first delivery. Little will have to go through 2,000 
 letters in putting up hLs walk, and again arrange 1,200 for delivery. To 
 do this, he must sort at tho rate of 35 a minute, without allowing any 
 time for re-directing letters, taking charge, getting keys, etc., and after this 
 lie has to take out from 40 to 60 lbs. weight. He will not, as the sorting 
 clerk, have a dozen bun<lles to finally dispose of, but 300 or 400 lots to 
 finally dispose of. Let his mind lie off his work one moment, and a nns- 
 delivery is made of which he will hear, and for which he will be punished 
 more severely than a sorter, because it causes complaints direct from the 
 public, and the clerks hear mostly from the official at the office to which 
 letters were mis-sent. The nicest discrimination and judgm.ent are re- 
 quired in claiming badly initialled and illegibly addressed letters for his 
 clients, and an intelligent postman causes many valuable letters to reach 
 people which never would do so were it not for his diligence and risk. 
 I have known postmen say they could tell by the industry, the district, or 
 even the colour of the envelopes, if the letter lielonged to their firms. 
 
 The Chairman : You are going into figures, I understand ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Can you instance any foreign country which adopts the system of 
 making sorters and postmen interchangeable? 
 
 A. No, I cannot, sir. Under the American system the postman, how- 
 ever, is much better treated. You find that he is guaranteed his situation, 
 whereas the clerk is merely taken on hire. 
 
 Q. But in this coimtry both postmen and clerks are guaranteed, are thev 
 not? 
 
 A. We are much more old-fashioned — much surer and better. 
 
 Q. I say that both classes are guaranteed. You say that in America 
 the clerks are only taken on temporarily?
 
 Wages — Aggregate — Comparisons. 217 
 
 A. Yes ; in this country we are both guarantsed, but I want to point 
 out tliat, as a matter of fact, the American system to some extent suffers 
 by the absence of interchangeability. On the occasion of a strike in America, 
 the postmen, in view of the position they occupied, having their position 
 guaranteed by law, refused to interfere with the sorting of the mail, and 
 stood idly by while the clerks were over-pressed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say that the American postmen have a guaranteed 
 position. Do you know that of your own knowledge? 
 
 A. To a very great extent. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that the American postman is not eligible for a 
 pension ? 
 
 A. Quite so, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that his service does not count for pension? 
 
 A. I will come to that presently. I have here some ])rinted extracts 
 upon the point to prove my case, but I do not intend to inflict them on the 
 Committee unless it is necessary, I assure you. 
 
 COMPARISON WITH POLICE WAGES. 
 
 The condition of the |X)stman is held V)y the Department to be one of 
 luxury compared with other workers. I find the postmen compared at 
 Liverpool with the local police stand thus: — Postmen's minimum, 17s.; 
 policemen's, 24s. M. Joining the service together the postman loses the 
 first year at 7s. 6d. per week, £19 10s. ; second at 6s. 6tl., £16 8s. ; 
 third at 6s. 6d., £16 18s.; fourth at 6s. 6d., £16 18s.; fifth at 6s. 6d.. 
 £16 18s. ; sixth at 5s. 6d., £14 6s. ; seventh at 4s. 6d., £11 14s. ; eighth 
 at 5s. 6d., £14 6s. ; ninth at 4s. 6d., £11 14s. ; tenth at 3s. 61., £9 2s. ; 
 eleventh at 2s. 6d., £6 10s; twelfth at Is. 6d., £3 18s. ; thirteenth, at 6d., 
 £1 6s. The postman, therefore, loses in thirteen years £159 18.s. This 
 loss to the men is a gain to the Post Office, if applied to tlie 24,556 post- 
 men, oi £3,926,504 in 13 years, or £302,038 16s. per year. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You have omitted the whole question of Sunday duty, liave 
 you not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You are aware that the police do Sunday duty? 
 
 A. Yes, I am. 
 
 Q. And if you do such duty you are paid extra for it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you have not brought that into \-our calculation? 
 
 A. No, I have not. 
 
 Q. Surely it is a very essential element? 
 
 A. Yes ; but on the otlier hand I have not brought into my calculation 
 the fact that promotion up to sergeant and suj^rintendent is open to 
 every constable. 
 
 Q. Have you brought into your calculation the fact that the police have 
 to submit to a deduction from their wages for pension? 
 
 A. Of 2^ per cent. No, I have not. 
 
 Q. And to make your calculation accurate both those elements should l)e 
 introduced, should they not? 
 
 A. It is a very slight matter, but I propose to deal with the question of 
 pensions presently. Had I not better go on with my statement? 
 
 Q. There is a qualification of height required in the Liverpool police, is 
 there not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. They are required to l)e 6 feet higli, are they not? 
 
 A. No ; only 6 ft. 7 in. 
 
 Q. I think you are wrong.
 
 218 John Walsu, Liverpool. 
 
 A. I can also prove tliat a hei>,'ht and chest measurement qualification was 
 required from the Liverj)o<>! jK)stiiicn. Tlie height was tlie same as in the 
 j)oIice. I find a joiner rt'ceives 37s. lOd. jier week ; a ijoliceman averages 
 27s, 6d. jwr we-.'k ; carters, 27s. and 30s. ; dockers. 27s. and 33s. |)er wt-ek ; 
 suivengers, 21s i)er week. A mean of these gives 29s. Ojd., whicli is 
 8s. O^d. a week more than the postman's mean average. 
 
 Mr. Smith : How do you get at tlie dockers' wage? 
 
 A. Of course the wages of these men are precarious. 
 
 Q. But how do you get at the figure? 
 
 A. From a return. 
 
 Q. Is it what the men would earn if they were on full work? 
 
 A. Yes ; an<l if they are not at work they have the time to employ 
 as they choose. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Oh, but perhaps thev would prefer the work and not the 
 time? 
 
 POSTMASTER DAYTOX, OF NEW YORK. OX BRITISH POSTMEN. 
 
 Postmaster Dayton, of New York, interviewed, during his recent visit 
 to London, is reported to have .sai<l of British ix)stmen : — "Very little is 
 exi)ected of j'our letter-carrier, iLn<l he is paid accordingly. We jmy our 
 letter-carriers £20 a month, hut they are worth it. We expect our men to 
 keep trii/;k of removals, ferret out ohscure addresses, and so on." Post- 
 master Dayton had a difficult task to perform. He had to depress our 
 mens service to the level of their starvation wages, and elevate his own to 
 the level of their's. The task was impossible without a mis-statement, 
 and Postmaster Daytcm is either grossly imposed upon or a willing victim 
 to an error which suits his case. To imply that British postmen do not keep 
 track of removals or ferret out obscure addresses is untrue ; they not only 
 do so, but. with the exception of a few letters dispo.sed of by the blind 
 clerk and the tirst-class clerks doing postmen's work in the box office, 
 are the only individuals allowed to re-direct, trace, and finally dispose of 
 letters as dead. 
 
 The Chairman : You need not make this Committee the means of answer- 
 ing Postmaster Dayton. We do not care about his views. 
 
 A. I am working a comparison. 
 
 The Cliairman : Please leave him out of the question. I do not care a 
 snap for him. 
 
 Witness : It upsets my statement. 
 
 The Chairman : I must have him knocked out. 
 
 Witness : There are parts which bring in the question of the educational 
 test. It is very important, and I should be very sorry to omit it. 
 
 The Chairman : If you have any representations to make with regard to 
 the educational tests required of postmen, you can tell us without bringing 
 in Mr. Dayton. 
 
 Witness : But I can prove it with more force in this way. 
 
 The Chairman : I do not think you can. Tell us, please, what your 
 opinion is. 
 
 Witness : We make the mistake, says this gentleman, of demanding all 
 sorts of irrelevant acquirements in our candidates for minor places. The 
 American postman passes an examination nearly similar to the examination 
 lately introduced here to prevent postmen becoming sorters, and Mr. Day- 
 ton "admits it is a mistake. But a greater than he showed in his essays, 
 years ago, that lawyers, doctors, and professional men in America were not
 
 Wages — Aggregate— Americaa Postmen. 219 
 
 less capable but more capable since examinations for these professions had 
 been depleted of the dead languages ; I refer to Emerson. 
 
 Witness here put in the following quotation from Emerson upon " New 
 England Reformers." in regard to "Superfluous Education": — '"But in a 
 hundred high schools and colleges, this warfare against common sense goes 
 on. Four, six. or ten years, the pupil is pirsing Greek and Latin, and as 
 soon as he leaves the University, as it is ludicrously stjded, he shuts those 
 books for the last time. But is not this absurd, that the whole liberal 
 talent of this countiy should Ix; directed, m its best years, on studies 
 which lead to nothing. If the physician, the lawj'er, the divine, never use 
 it to come at their ends, I need never iise it to come at mine. So they 
 jumped the Greek and Latin and read law, medicine, or sermons without it. 
 To the astonishment of all. Ike self-made men took even ground at once 
 with the oldest of the regular gi-adua.te.s. an<l in a few months the most 
 conssrvative circles of Boston and New York had quite forgotten who of 
 their number was coll?ge-l)rcd a:id who was not." I claim that postmen 
 are fitted to do every function now done by sorters. The Department, 
 Kke the scientist proving tliat Stephenson's train could not run, as smooth 
 wheels could not revolve on a smooth surface, will answer "Impossible," 
 but with Stephenson we answer. '" We can do tiiese things, for we are 
 doing them and have done them." No Trade Union in tlie country would 
 suffer lads from school to be jumpetl in over their ex{XTicnced w^orkers, 
 for the purpose of tilling all the higher ^xxsitions of the craft. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: A sorter passes an examimition as well as a postman, 
 does he not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And wliat examination is there to prevent postmen W- 
 coming sorters? 
 
 A. I am giving the postmen's opinion. 
 
 Q. Are you <leiiling with the ex.iminations of iHtst.nun or of sorters? 
 
 A. I say the e<lucationail test has been raise<l. 
 
 (j. For the sortei-s? 
 
 A. Yes, for the sorting clerks. 
 
 Q. And what is the objection to raising it? 
 
 A. I think it is an injustice to the postmen througliout the country. 
 They am perform the duties without it, and tliey have work sufiicieiit to 
 occupy their whcle time without l>eLng called upon to jirepare tliemsolves 
 for an educatiomi.1 test which is unnecessary. 
 
 i.}. Do you mean tint we have too high a test for sortmg clerks? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is our opinion, and it is also our opinion that it has been 
 introduced in order to keep the 2>ostmen out. 
 
 Q. But the examination has been fixed, has it not, to suit the capicities 
 of a child educate<l at an elementary school, and who has jKussed the 6th 
 Standard ? 
 
 A. I do not know that. 
 
 Q. Is it too high a t«st if that is so? 
 
 A. It is uimecessary tor the performance of tlie work. Continuing his 
 statement, witness .said: — In America postmen are paid two rates. In 
 towns where the population is over 75,000 postmen are rated first-class ; 
 thev receive the first year $600 or £125, tlie second $800 or £166 13s. 4d., 
 and' afterwards $1,000 or £208 6s. 8d. In towns imder 75,000 the rate is 
 second- clas.s. nio second-class men get first year §600 of £125, and after- 
 wards $850 or £177 Is. 8d. American i>ostmcn have no sick pay, no 
 uniform provided, and no pensions. Their uniform costs from £2 10s. to
 
 '220 John Waj.su, JJ\iiipoul. 
 
 £3 per annum. Suppose we allow £5 4.s. for uniform an<i hoots, £2 12.s. 
 for sickn<.'ss. and £5 4,v. to form ;i. j>en.sion fund, tlieir minimum rate minus 
 £13 would Iji) £112, which is £57 8.s. n man more than the British i>o.st- 
 man's mean avera-ge. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You referred just now to examimitious in the dead lan- 
 guages, Tliere is nothing of that in the P.O. examination? 
 
 A. No ; but there is in other professions, which it is admitted can go 
 on quite as well without them. 
 
 The Cliairman : As to American ])ostmen"s wages, is it not a fact that 
 the general rate of wages is higher in America than here? 
 
 A. I believe it is. 
 
 Q. And is not the cost of living considerably greater in America? 
 
 A. My brotlier-indaw .'siys the difference is not very great. House rent 
 and clothing are deaj, but food and general uten,sils in the house are nmch 
 cheaper. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: As a matter of fact, mechanics in America get two or three 
 times as much as they do in England. Ls tihat not so? 
 
 A. I Ijelieve that in some trades they do. 
 
 The Cliairman : If you could say that tlie rate of postmen's wages in other 
 Eurojxvm countries was higher than that paid here it would be a very much 
 stronger cise from your point of view. 
 
 Witness : As a matter of fact, with regard to European countries, they 
 are all milit«ry-ridden, and cannot be compared with a commercial country. 
 I want to point out, as this gentleman has pointed out, that the rates for 
 the liigher officials in the English Post OfBce are much higher than for tluxse 
 in the American office, wliile the English postmen liave much less than the 
 lower grades in the AmeriGin Post Office. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You are assuming tliat Ihe level of prices is the same in the 
 two countrie.^? 
 
 A. 0"ite so. 
 
 0. But it Ls not. is it? 
 
 A. Let me give an illustration. The American postmen are so much 
 l>etter off' that they can .afford to come over here to spend their holi<lays. 
 whei\?«s the British postman can hardly afford to tiike hLs annual leave. 
 I have not Injen able to go out of Liver^xtol more than three or fom* times 
 during my service. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not a fact that the hours of American postmen are 
 much longer? 
 
 A. No. They liave al^olutely eight Liours. Tlie American Treasun," 
 has had to pay over £100,000 for overtime, and if the British authorities 
 could be fined for infringing the eight hour rule, I fancv there would be a 
 nmch heavier claim agairist the Government. A mean of the American four 
 scales— £125, £166 13s. M., £177 18s.. £208 6s. 8d.— is £169 5s. 5d. 
 Deduct from this the £13, and still America pays her postmen £156 5s. 5d., or 
 an average of £101 14s. 6d. more per man than England. That is a prolt 
 to England compared to America, of 186.6 i)er cent, out of lier postmen. 
 In 40 years the American gets £5,090 13s. 4(1. more titan the English post- 
 man. England gets three postmen for what America pays one. Our free 
 delivery system, and our annual £3,625,000 surplus are had, for the most 
 part, out of our poor underpaid postmen. 
 
 THE MINIMUM. 
 
 I should like liere to put in my letter of engagement as a letter-c<irrier 
 offering me a minimum of £1 per week. (Letter put in.) Nineteen years 
 ago I received £1 a week on joining the Service. A return furnished to
 
 WagpS — Aggregate —Comparisons. 221 
 
 the House of Commons on the 1st July, 1890, sliows the minimum for 
 firat-class postmen in London to have been 23s., and in Liverpool. Manches- 
 ter, Edinburgh, and Glasgow, 22s. pr week. Take Liverpool a.s an ex- 
 ample of the immense supposed benefit to postmen the raising of the maxi- 
 mum to 30s. and the reducing the minimum to 17s. has been. A mean of 
 the wages of 634 established postmen at Liverpool now gives £741 9s. per 
 week. In 1890 there were 389 Hrst-cliuss men at 22s. to 28s., 161 second 
 and twelve sub-office men at 18s. to 21s. If these increased in their then 
 ratio*, we would have -i'S'^rM first-clas'. liO^fr secon l-chi*s. and -.'1 sub- 
 office men, which at the mexm of th.e old rates gives £737 lis. l^d. The 
 stupendous increase in postmen's wages then is really £4 l.s. 7d. jier week 
 at Liverpool. Now, if I me'ition tliat 389 were reduced Is. or their suc- 
 cessors you will see that there is a nett g-ain out of the men of £5 to £16 
 per week. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you moan tlie reduction of Is. was on the maximum or 
 on the minimum? 
 
 A. On the maximum, working out of London. 
 
 Q. But that particular shilling was a special thing in Liverpool, was it 
 not? 
 
 A. It wa-s, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it only given to a portion of the postmen? 
 
 A. No ; it went to the whole of the postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Were all the postmen employed in sorting? 
 
 A. Ye.s ; we were all df)ing sorting. 
 
 The Chairman: This return does not give the present i>osition? 
 
 A. I am comparing it with it. 
 
 The Chairman : It is prior to tlie revision of 1891 ? 
 
 A. I aui comp.iring what hapi)ened after the revision of 1891 with uliat 
 was the position before it. 
 
 Mr. Smith: T\\e result of tJie 1891 revision was an increa.se, was it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; it was an increase to the older men at the expense of the new 
 entrants into the Service. It wa.s a kiml of Peter and Paul l)usiness ; you 
 tf)ok away from Pet^r in order to jxiy Paul. 
 
 COMPARISON WITH TELEGRAPHISTS AND SORTING CLERKS. 
 
 Mis-statement is made in the House constantly, putting increase of st;iff 
 forward as increase of wages. Mr. Tipping, second-chuss telegraphist, said 
 at five A-ears' service (21 years of age for telegraphists) a wage of 28s. 
 Instead of 24s. should be given. The present wages were about those of a 
 stoker on the Midland Railway, and the increment of 2s. per w-eek was so 
 small as to be difficult of realisition. I liave imjuired of a stoker on the 
 Midland, and find he gets 21s. per week, and that his average attendance is 
 10 hours per day, and that it takes three to five years to get 27s. per week. 
 
 Mr. WaliKjle : Tliat is one fact we have got about the wages for other 
 labour in this country. Am I riglit in saying that a stoker for 21s. a 
 week works 10 hours a day? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The misfortune is this : you have got a powerful Govern- 
 ment here controlling matters, which ought to do what is right. You 
 have got capitalists outside doing prett\' well what they like, and operating 
 upon the men as far as they like to go. We exjKjct more humane and better 
 treatment from the Government than would be expected from a private 
 employer. But supix)se their wages (stokers and telegraphists) tlie same, 
 Mr. lipping, to be paid at the stoker's rate per hour, would only receive
 
 '222 Joiin^Walsu, Liverpool. 
 
 16s. 9 3-5<I., and to compare tlie after stages wouM J>e ridiculous, while tlie 
 st<jker may l>e far tlie more useful public .ser>'itiit of tlie two. I liave l»een 
 U) the tek'^rai)h room over iuid over agiiin wIumi serving it, or sent on iiif- 
 Bages, and have also in'piired from others, and liave found quite half of t: 
 telegraph staff .sitting idle awaiting work. 
 
 The Uhairman : Then you liave no ohjection tr» telegraphists In-ing paid 
 stokerii' wages? 
 
 A. I want to prove tJiat they are not entitle<l to an increase, and tli ' 
 we liave suffered l>y the increa.s's they have already had. I will prove tli ■ 
 lat«.T on. It is alleged that it is only when young and sui)ple of joint t 
 telegraphist's business can Itc learned ; this applies to pianists, drumme; 
 acrobat.s, tailors, and othei's, but the i)ower manifested in statesmi 
 genenils, and wise tliinkers of noti, does not de|K;nd primarily on supp 
 ness of the Hngers. and is pos-^ible at the grey-liaireil stage. The fact iv 
 l»eing a stoker, a postman, or a teLgr.iphist, <leji€nds on influence or chan< . 
 'J'lic jK)or telegraph lads, who have U) .siga on entering they have no claim 
 on the Service after a sjjell of good service, and are sent away becai, 
 of no vaciincies, would till, and more than till, all the viuyncies filled now h 
 favoured lads direct from scliool. The army and navy do not, once la<t^ 
 liave jKissed a medical examination, send them adrift after keeping them in 
 service when they should have been at a trade. Now. if 28s. a week can l>e 
 used up by a youngster of 21, liis wants will not 1h3 satisfied by £3 a week 
 when he has .i family to sujiport. I think the Deja-rtment entirely wise 
 in this graduated metiiod of piyment, as it is a V»-c;tter means of distri- 
 bution. It fre'|Uently liajipens that tJiese young men live witli tlieir parents, 
 several of them making a big s tlavy t'f* sw-dl the family coffer. But ex- 
 tremes can lie readied, and are, when young fellows, appointe<l at 21 and 22, 
 receive only l?.**., and incre;i.se not by 2s., but by Is. amiually. 
 Mr. Smith : Is that the average age of appointment — 21 or 22? 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have a scheme prejxire 1 which shows that. 
 The Chairman : A jireviows witness put it at 19. 
 
 Mr. Wa.ljMde : .\t Liverpool l>oys are not kept as telegraph messengers 
 beyond the age of 19, ;u"e they? 
 
 A. They are sometimes made acting postmen. 
 Q. But they must begin a postman's duty at 19, mu.st they not? 
 A. Yes ; they are not kept in the telegi-aph branch after tliey are 19. 
 Q. Then they must go through the auxiliary stage? 
 A. They do not get apjuiinted postmen until they are 21. 
 Q. Do you know of your own knowledge any telegrajih messengers in tliat 
 position? 
 
 A. I have a return of the average service, and what they do as telegraph 
 huls. Some of them, m;urying e;irly, are kept by tliis initial low wage in 
 poverty ever afterwards. Our relief force at Liverpool, doing about two- 
 thirds of their work by sorting outwards — the cla&s of work named superior 
 — have all had from live to seven years' telegraph service at wages of from 
 5s. to 12s. i^er Aveek, and are l>eginners with a prospect of fifteen years before 
 them, at 21 years of age, until tliey can reach the maximum and stripes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Some of these are not telegraph messengers in the ordinary 
 sense. They are older men. 
 
 A. I told you they were auxiliaries. 
 
 Mr. Smith : And therefore they are exceptional and not typical cases ? 
 A. They all rise to that condition, and then would become typical. It 
 is about that age that the telegraph lad becomes a postman. 
 Mr. Walpole: And he would carry his wage of 18s. with him? 
 A. No ; he would only get 17s. ; he would drop a shilling.
 
 Wages — Aggregate. 
 
 223 
 
 POSTMEN IMPOVERISHED BY BIG WAGES IN OTHER BRANCHES. 
 
 I will now compare the wages of the postmen to these budiy-treatod 
 telegraphists. an<J at the same time answer the sorting clerks as to the 
 pseudo gain the Departmeut were to have in turning the postmen away from 
 Sorting : — 
 
 Postmen on Appointment. 
 
 Sort. Clerk and Telegraphist 
 (At the same age). 
 
 Difference. 
 
 
 £ 
 
 6. 
 
 D. 
 
 
 £ s. 
 
 D. 
 
 £8. 
 
 D- 
 
 First Year, 
 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 
 First Year 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 7 16 
 
 
 
 Second ,, 
 
 
 
 18 
 
 
 
 Second ,, 
 
 1 2 
 
 
 
 10 8 
 
 
 
 Third 
 
 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 Third 
 
 1 4 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 Fourth 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Fourth 
 
 1 6 
 
 
 
 15 12 
 
 
 
 Fifth 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 Fifth 
 
 1 8 
 
 
 
 18 4 
 
 
 
 Stripe Sixth 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 
 Sixth 
 
 1 10 
 
 
 
 18 4 
 
 
 
 Seventh ,, 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 Seventh 
 
 1 12 
 
 
 
 20 16 
 
 
 
 Eighth 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 Eighth 
 
 1 14 
 
 
 
 23 9 
 
 
 
 Ninth 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 Ninth 
 
 1 16 
 
 
 
 26 
 
 
 
 Tenth 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 Tenth 
 
 1 18 
 
 
 
 28 12 
 
 
 
 Stripe Eleventh 
 
 
 9 
 
 
 
 Eleventh ,, 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 28 12 
 
 
 
 Twelfth 
 
 
 10 
 
 
 
 Twelfth 
 
 2 2 
 
 
 
 31 4 
 
 
 
 Thirteenth „ 
 
 
 11 
 
 
 
 Thirteenth ,, 
 
 2 4 
 
 
 
 34 16 
 
 
 
 Fourteenth ,, 
 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 Fourteenth ,, 
 
 2 6 
 
 
 
 37 8 
 
 
 
 Fifteenth 
 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 Fifteenth ,. 
 
 2 8 
 
 
 
 42 12 
 
 
 
 Stripe Sixteenth ,, 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 Sixteenth ,, 
 
 2 10 
 
 
 
 45 4 
 
 
 
 Seventeenth ,, 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 Seventeenth ,, 
 
 2 12 
 
 
 
 59 8 
 
 
 
 Eighteenth ., 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 Eighteenth ,, 
 
 2 14 
 
 
 
 55 12 
 
 
 
 Ninet^eenth ,, 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 
 Nineteenth „ 
 
 2 16 
 
 
 
 60 16 
 
 
 
 A gain for these Clerks of £577 12 
 
 This does not include the jumps they have been describing to the Com- 
 mittee. SupjMise a postniin to get a sorting postmunship at four years' 
 service ; 7.s. a week uiiioimts to £18 4s. a ye«ir, and tliis for fifteen years to 
 £273, s<j that the sorting clerk still gains £304 12s. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you make any allowance in the comparison ft'r Christmas 
 boxes ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I cannot. I now propose to reply to Mr. Liascelles. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Wiio is Mr. Lascelles? 
 
 A. He is a sorting clerk who has been givmg evidence against the post- 
 men. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He has not been giving evidence against the postmen. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I have he*ard no such evidence. 
 
 A. It is an illustration of our whole case. 
 
 Tlie Chairman: I should just like to know what you want to do? 
 
 Witness : I want, to j)rove t]i:it Mr. Lascelles' statement with regaixl to 
 the comparative 'amounts exjjendeil on postmen and clerks is false, and also 
 tiiat several other of his statements are untrue. 
 
 The Chairman : But we can desl with these things ourselves. 
 
 Witness : It is a question })etween the two sections. You cannot <le<il 
 with it witimut hearing our case. 
 
 The Chairman : We are not here to decide between the two sections. 
 We have heard their ca.se, and we are now hearing yours. Don't suppose 
 we take as Gospel everyf'ing tliat is told us. 
 
 Witness : But witlionit hearing our reply to their statement you cannot 
 meet the ca«e of our class. I want to .show that the amount expended on 
 postmen and that on the sorting clerks compare very differently.
 
 224 John Walsh, Liverpoijl. 
 
 Mr. WaliMile : We can work tliat out for ourselves. 
 
 Witness : You might wiy you have l>een <loing tliat in our oflice, but 
 look at tlie condition of affairs at Ijiveri)r)ol which I liave exjxwed. 
 
 »Sir F. Mowatt : Would it be wise to ba.se your case and evidence on a 
 proi>osa.l to reduce tlie salaries of the sorters? The result would not apiKjar 
 to be very fortunate. 
 
 A. No, it would not. 
 
 Q. Have you put in any claim that the sorters shall not have an increa-jp 
 of pay? 
 
 A. I shall prove it most clwirly that they are not entitled to one, iini 
 that they are getting too much at tlie exjKinse of the i>ostmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That would be valuable evidence from a Post Office point 
 of view. (Laughter.) 
 
 The (.'hairman : But it has nothing to do with the postmen's caso. 
 Wliatever you hive to say at»out Mr. I/uscelles, it niu.st be somotliin;; 
 directly affecting tiie postmen. If y<)U insist on saying it — and I do not 
 think it is necessary — we must consider the point, but I cannot allow you 
 to answer Mr. Liscelles on behalf of the Iwverpool men. 
 
 Witness : I iiave already spoken of the foolishnes.s of tlie Dej>artinent in 
 employing men as sorter-s 
 
 The (Jhairman : I must lay it down absolutely that I can only hear you on 
 matters referring to the case of the jKjstmen. 
 
 Witness : Well, this refers to it. 
 
 The Cliairman : No, it does not. It is a question as between two clas.^' .s 
 of the men. It is not a postman's question at all. 
 
 Witness : He asked as U) the sorting. I am showing that the Liverpool 
 postmen are as ca|)able of doing it as the clerks. 
 
 The Chairman : Wait a moment. Mr. Lascelles, as far as I can see, 
 does not go into the question of the j><)stinen at all. 
 
 Witness : Yes, he does. 
 
 The Chairman : He does not. 
 
 Witness : He names certain postmen in LiverfM)ol, and speaks of 24 
 being occupied on sorting duty. 
 
 Mr. Wal|>ole : The sorting postmen at Liverpool have never been em- 
 ployed on the T.P.O. 
 
 Witness : No ; but Mr. Lascelles is setting up a claim that the thing we 
 complain of should }>ecome common to the whole Service. 
 
 The Chairman : Your case is that you want to merge the classes of post- 
 men and sorting clerks? 
 
 A. Y'^es ; and I can prove his statements and calculations to be absurd and 
 false. He has been ready to make an attack upon us. and I think it would 
 only be fair for the Committee to hear the other side. (Cries of " Hear, 
 hear.") 
 
 The Cliairman : Order, order ! So far as your statement relates to the 
 postmen I have nothing to say, but you cannot go into the general case 
 of the distribution of work between the various classes. I cannot allow you 
 to do that. 
 
 Witness : We say we are as fitted for tha work as they are. Will you 
 not allow me to illustrate our capability for that? 
 
 The Chairman : Y'ou cannot go into Mr. Lascelles' evidence with regard 
 to that. I am quite ready to hear your statement that the postmen are 
 fully capable of doing the work of sorters. 
 
 Witness : I have a lot of evidence mixed up with this part — evidence sent 
 on to me from other towns. They are in fear of this work being takea 
 away from them, and they want to prove their capacity for it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It is not to be taken away from them. They are not em» 
 ployed on it.
 
 
 3 
 
 03 a> 
 => 2 « 
 
 .^1 
 
 ^
 
 Wages — Aggregate — Comparisons. 225 
 
 Witness: They want to show their capability and their right to claim it. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: The Ch;iirman is ([uite willing to hear any st;itement 
 showing your capacity for the performance of a particular work. 
 
 The Chairman : Yes ; but without entering into a controvt-r.-^y with Mr. 
 Lascelles. 
 
 Witness then conunenced to read the statement, wliich mentioneil a public 
 apology from Mr. Lascelles to other clerks for false statements on a pre» 
 vious occasion. 
 
 The Chairman : I will not receive that. 
 
 Witness : I want to sl;ow the statement was false. 
 
 The Chairman : Whatever he says about the sorting clerks in for these 
 clerks to answer. It is not for you, as a jjostman, to answer what he 
 Kiid about a clerk at Liver]>ool. 
 
 Witness : He asks that the clerks— — 
 
 The Chairman: Please stick to the jxistinen. I will not have evidence 
 from you with regard to the .sortmg clerks. 
 
 Witness : In dealing with the Foreign Office work he takes credit for 
 express letters. At LiveriK)ol the 
 
 Tlie Chairman : I wish you to keep to the postmen. This is a question of 
 grinding at the sorting clerks. 
 
 Witness : They are getting superior pay and position because of their 
 clerical tluties, and I want to show that those duties are not exceptional. 
 
 The (3hairman : I am (juite willing to hear you if you say the postmen 
 are fully comjjetent to jHirfonn these duties ; but what I do not want, and 
 what I will not allow. Is you tt> enter into an argument a.s to how far 
 sorting clerks are competent to do their work. You can make your c;iso 
 out that you are comi)etent, but leave the sorting clerks out. 
 
 Witness : I am not saying they are incompetent. I am saying that 
 they claim certain privileges on certain grounds, and tliat on their own 
 evidence they belittle those grounds. 
 
 The Chairman : Do keep to your own case. 
 
 Witness again commenced to rea<l. 
 
 The Chairman : You will not do as I tell you. I shall have to have it a|) 
 cut out. 
 
 Witness : Let me read it and then cut it out. 
 
 The Chairman : Wliy should I allow the Committee's time to be wasted 
 in that way? 
 
 Witness : I am giving evidence as a postman. 
 
 Tiie Chainnan : You are master of your own case. Tell us what affects 
 the postmen. 
 
 Witness again suggested reading from the document, and was refeiTing 
 to the clerks. 
 
 The Chairman : I must stop this altf)gether. Put that paper away 
 altogether, please. Now, I will ask a question or two on what I l>elieve 
 to Vie your point. You consider that a jiostman is fully cai>ablc of doing 
 the work of a sorter? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think that it would be an advant<ige to the Department 
 tiiat the postmen should do that work? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you think that for that work you are entitled to l)e p;iid on a 
 scale similar to that which is paid to the men who now do it? 
 
 A. Yes. I say that the soi"ters are deserving of no better piy than we for 
 the work they do. 
 
 Q. Do you consider your pay is sufficient for that work? 
 
 A. Well, I am getting allowances. I .sliould say tliat 45s. a week for 
 the indoor men, including clerks of the £190 and 56s, a week class, wouid 
 be a proper rat«. 
 H
 
 226 John Wai.sii, Liverpool. 
 
 Q, You think it is not necesstiy U> piy inon' llian 45s. a week? 
 
 A. Tliat is my contention. 
 
 Q. You consider tlie pnictii-e of employing,' postmen to sort at Liverpool 
 is based on a good principle? 
 
 A. I do, sir. 
 
 Q. An<l you consider it a ])ractice «liicli sliouM t)e extended to other jiari- 
 of the United Kingdom? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I shoulil also iiki- to ask for tlie aliolition or modification of 
 Rule 162, which preserves certnin Korting duties for clerks, und disallows 
 them for jiostiiieii. In tlie case of a strike tlic clerk might refuse to <h. 
 postmen's work ; therefore I think the rule should l>e altereil. 
 
 The Chairman: And you think, as I iinderstmd it, tliat tlie present ni' 
 with regard to the examination of sorters i.s an imfair rule — that it is 
 too severe? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 Q. What <|ualitic<ition do you think the Deprirtment ought to re'|uire of 
 postmen who are t^» l>e employed on sorting work? 
 
 A. I should think, sir, that the (jualitication now require*! of jKjstinen on 
 entering the Service ought to hu the examination for both sorters and 
 postmen, and that it ought to he reiiuirod to lie (»f an excellent chara/;t«'r. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: That tlie suliji-cts should l)e the s<une, but the standanl a 
 little liigher? 
 
 A. Yes ; it ought to be a most excellent pro<luction. 
 
 Afr. Smith: What .subjects are they? 
 
 A. The four first el "ineutary rules, dictation, and reading addresses. 
 
 Q. Whtt are the extra subjects for the sorters' examinations? 
 
 A. Percent;iges. 
 
 Mr. WaliK)le : What? 
 
 A. l'ercent;iges, and decimals, and geography generally. This i.s, of 
 course, hardly educational at ,ill. It is merely cramming a youth with a lot 
 of matter of very little benefit either to him or to the Department. Tlie 
 knowledge gained through sorting is (|uite suflBcient. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not a fact that already a considerable numl>er of 
 postmen become sorters every year? 
 
 A. Yes, sir : but that <loes not satisfy the general body. Very often an 
 experienced {K)stma.n who has really served as a sorter is not eligible for 
 promotion Ijeciiuse he luus passed a certain age. 
 
 Q. Have you formed any opinion, or have you any scheme to propose 
 to the Committee as to the method by which the aspirations of the post- 
 men in this way could be satisfieil? 
 
 A. Do you mean merely for the work? 
 
 Q. You have two bodies now — sorting clerks and postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you got any scheme by which the desire of the postmen to be 
 ajnalgamated with the sorting clerks could be carried out? 
 
 A. Xo ; I have not any precise scheme. I think if you make the con- 
 dition of tlie postman outside similar to the condition of the clerk inside 
 at once it would do away with the desire on the pirt of the postman to get 
 in, and would make it no degradation to the clerk to go out. 
 
 Q. But you now have two bodies on a different footing? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And a great numl>er in both of the different classes? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Yes ; if you make a change you must have some way of starting it? 
 
 A. Yes ; but the change would have to be as all things are — gradual. 
 I think if you give 45s. for the indoor staff and 40s. for tlie outdoor staff, 
 and allow stripes as well as so nmch for uniform and boot allowances, the 
 extra 5s. to the sorters would place t':em on an exact level, and then thp 
 
 a 
 
 I
 
 Wages — Aggregate — Amalgamation of Classes. 22? 
 
 desire of the postmen to get indoor ;ind to outdo the clerk would not be 
 so great as at present. 
 
 Q. Your idea is to reduc; the salaries of the sorters and sorting clerks? 
 
 A. Yes ; and to make tiie higher class redundant. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What you suggest is that the existing rak-s of pay 
 'Should be continued to the present staf. Hut that future entrant*: should 
 Ibe subjected to the scale you mention? 
 
 A. It would be a reduction of the minimum : we aro asking for 20s., 
 and a maximum of 40s. 
 
 The Chainnan : I am talking about the sorting classes. 
 
 A. I W(ndd make the two clas.ses retlundant, both the £190 and the 56s. 
 men, and I would give an increase to the second-class of 5s. 
 
 Q. You would aljolish the liret-class sorting clerks — the clerksiiips? 
 
 A. Yes; and I would have it consistent all througii. 
 
 Q. And you would raise the wages of the boys? 
 
 A. Yes. in the larger towns. 
 
 Q. And you would exi)ect the t^vo classes to be intercliange<ible? 
 
 A. I should, of course, exjiect the most intvlligeuce and the greatest 
 caixibility. I should want to develop to the greatest extent the capjicity of 
 the men, inste^id of keeping tlieni at mere mechanicil ;uid irre.sponsible work. 
 I should want to tind out if they wtre capable of other work. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : \t>u do not consider now that the postman is .'^iiuply 
 kept to mechanic;il and unintellectual work? 
 
 A. I say he is denieil an opiH)rUmity of acquiring a knowledge of other 
 work in the Service, but I do not .say that he is doing merely mechanical 
 work. What we complain of is that he is denied the opportunities of mak- 
 ing himself acquainted with this work. 
 
 (The Witness then asked the Chainnan if he would lake the statement 
 which he had proposed to read in reply to Mr. La.scelles' evidence and look 
 througii it himself.) 
 
 The Chairman: I should 1« delightt'd U^ look at it. 
 
 Witness: 1 ho|»e your lordship will also look at the ci.se f)f the stampers, 
 which 1 pro})ose to hand in. 
 
 (.Statement handed in.) 
 
 The Ciiairman : Have you got any estimate of the cost of what you pro- 
 pose? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Witness : The sorting postmen are but 10^ {ler cent, of the postmen in 
 Liveri)ool. The work of ])ostmen. we contend, in every respect is as impor- 
 tant and re.-;ponsible as that performed by .sorting clerks, and is indisj)en- 
 sable to the Service and the public : neither will boy labour, nor woman 
 labour, which sutlice for t-eleLfraph work, do for it. Dealing with the 
 public, it needs a iKjrscm who has attained years of discretion, also mature 
 age. to stand the constiuit physical strain 'of the work. I may say tliat 
 Sir George H. B. Macleoil has'reporte<l that, such is the difficult nature of 
 the service, that men in the best of health have entirely collajwed after 
 a year or two, in consequence of the hard nature of the work to which 
 they had been unable to become inured. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Can you give u.s any reference to that? 
 
 A. No. sir ; that is the statement given me from Glasgow. 
 
 Q. Do you really expect us to accept a hearsay statement from Glasgow, 
 not fortified by any data or reference? 
 
 Mr. Smith : In order that we may attach any weight to a statement of 
 this sort, we must know the circumstances under which it was made and 
 the authority for it. Cannot you give us that? 
 
 A. No, sir. Pei-haps Mr. Maclaren can substantiate it in .some waj\ 
 
 The Chairman: Then why did nf)t Mr. Maclaren put it forward?
 
 228 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 A. It was in ohwlience to a re(|iiest iimde tliat one witness s';oulil not 
 overlap the j^touikI c<)Vere<l by another witness. 
 
 Mr. Maclaren : I may explain that, in con.swpience of that requeHt, I cut 
 out of my stjitement tiiose parts wiiicli wi-re to \te covere<l by Mr. Walsh, 
 an<l one of them w;us a eomiKurison with the work of the sorting clerk. 
 
 Mr. Walpolo : This luuj nothing to do with the work of sorting clerks. 
 It is an allegf^l stvitenu-nt by a nieiliwii oHicer tliat the work broke t!'e men 
 down. Cin you toll us \v here it came from? 
 
 Mr. Maclaren : The Ht/iteiiieiit was shown t-o me. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : When was it made? 
 
 A. I should think about 25 years ago. (A laugii.) 
 
 Mr. Smith : Who is tlie authority for it? 
 
 A. Sir George Mocleod. a former meilical ofJicer. 
 
 Q. Where is the document? Wlmt is it? 
 
 Mr. Walsh : I will withdraw the statement. 
 
 Mr. Maclaren : I have endeavoured to Hnd official confirmation of it at 
 Gla.sgow, but they tell me tliey have not the data so far back as tliat. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Where did you get it frf»m? 
 
 A. When instituting in(}uiries anH>ng the f)lder men in the office. 
 
 Mr. WaljMile: And smnelxMly told you tlien thit Sir George Macleod 
 stited soniothing 25 yeara ago. That is all? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walsli, continuing his evidence, said: — At Liverpool, eleven years 
 ago, men Jiail to be 5 ft. 7 ins. in lieight, ami at least 54 ins. round the 
 chest, to l>e employe<l at the head office. The efficiency of tlie Service 
 rests even more wit!i the postman tlian the sorter. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Is that now require*!? 
 
 A. No ; I Ixdieve it ha.s lapsed n<<w. 
 
 Q. It is not rei|uirfd now, then? 
 
 A. It used to be, Init not now. 
 
 Mr. W'aljxile : Tlioiie is no surli rule now. in fact? 
 
 A. Xo ; but it was enforced at one time at the hcail office. 
 
 y. How long ago \\as that? 
 
 A. Eleven years ago. It wa.s maintained five or six years, and then it 
 lapsed. 
 
 The Cliairman : Ami even then the lieiglit measurement was four or five 
 inches below the standard required for the police? 
 
 A. I Ijelieve it is 5 feet 10 inches for the jx)lice. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Did you say the chest measurement was 24 inches? 
 
 A. Xo ; 34 inches. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I beg your pardon. I thought you said 24. 
 
 W^itness (continuing) : Tlie postman ctdlects the letters and again deli- 
 vers at destination — the all-import:int part, which, needs quite as much in- 
 telligence in doing it well as a sorter's duty calls for. A postman's position 
 is one of even greater trust and responsibility than that of a sorter, because 
 a sorter works constantly under a supervisor, and a postman does not. 
 I liave had as many a.s 74 registered letters on one delivery. In America 
 the force of this is admitted, postmen there l>eing better treated than clerks 
 or indoor officers. A high standard of health and strength is demanded 
 to begin with, a rigid medical examination, and. in after service, the work 
 demands a continuance of this strength and a high standard of character and 
 good behaviour. I have here an extract from " Truth " showing the ab- 
 surdity of the grade business, and I wish to put it in m evidence. 
 
 The Chairman: This is not even quoted from "Truth." 
 
 Witness : It is taken from another paper, but it was copied from " Truth " 
 toto that paper. 
 
 The Chairman: It does not show the letter to "Truth."
 
 Wages — Aggregate — The Grade System. 229 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : It appears to liave been inserk-d in the interests of the 
 •postmen. 
 
 Witness: It seems to have been something sent to the editor of "Truth," 
 *Mr. Labouchere, I presume. 
 
 The Chairman : Very well, the extract can be put in. 
 
 I;DIT0R of "TRUTHS" OPINION- OF THE PLAYED-OUT GRADE 
 
 SYSTCM. 
 
 The following paragraph, inserted in "Truth" in the interests of post- 
 tmen, tells it« own story : — 
 
 "At Liverpool, it appears, 600 postmen, whose salaries never rise above 
 £70 a year, have nothing bettor oi)vn to them than 21 ' inspectorships,' 
 and doubtless in many other parts of the country there are men (juite as 
 •Indly off. In these days of ailvanee<l. and still a<lvancing, popular edu- 
 cation, the system of dividing employees into gra<les .sejiarat-.-d by im- 
 ■passable barriers is utkrly indefensible, lliere is nothing, for instance, 
 •11 the duties of a 'sorting clerk' wldch any bo;»r<l school youtJi who has 
 'pas.se<l the seventh Standard ought not to Ikj equal to ; and it ought to be 
 •possible ff)r any postman who can show the requisite qualifications to ad- 
 vance either to this or to any other higher grade." 
 
 Witness : The whole grade business is hateful an<l unnecessary. Men are 
 dntelligent enough now to know that obedience is as honourable as com- 
 mand. The hazard of dismissal is sufficient to insure men <loing the work 
 «et them, without the foolish faith in Helotry as a necessity and sound 
 method of discipline. 
 
 Mr. Smith : What? 
 
 Witness : Helotrj- : the Greek system of having slave.s. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not a f;ict that many jMistmen sh<)W the requisite 
 qualific;itions for .sorting clerks? 
 
 A. Xo ; it is not. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You said just now that the examination was equal to the 
 sixth grade: should it not be the .seventh grade? 
 
 A. The Secretary said it was the sixth. 
 
 The Ciiainnan : But surely it is a fact that the j)ostmen are .<»atisfu'd ? 
 
 A. No, it is not. The age limit jjrevents them coming in. 
 
 Q. But that is one of tlie (jualitications required? 
 
 A. We siy that our experience is practically tlie same as that of a 
 sorter, and that our work is insep;i.rable. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Not inseparable, because it is separated now. 
 
 A. We say that experience is part and parcel of the (pialitications for this 
 office. 
 
 The Chairman : But the Department must be the judge whether an indi- 
 vidual is qualilied ? 
 
 A. Quite 80. 
 
 Q. Now, supposing that then postmen could satisfy the Department — 
 and I am not raising the question whether the DejKirtment requires too 
 great a qualificxtion or not — supposing. I say, that the Department is 
 satisfied with regard to the (jualifications of any particular postman, I 
 suppose you suggest that he should become a sorting clerk at once? 
 
 A. We contend that tlie present barrier is imjwssable. It ensures to 
 certain people certain privileges which are con.served. I will give an illus- 
 tration. The police enter at one standard. They are selected for impor- 
 tant duties. I have l^en t'lirough the office of the Liverpool Police force, 
 snd, from a humble postman's point of view, I must say that the work 
 S'^cms to be excellently done, and quite e(|ual to anything I have seen in the 
 I'ost Office. The men in the |X)lice office are selected from the ordinary 
 [K)lice force ; the examination required of them is about the same as that
 
 230 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 we go through, and I would suggest that all the work required in the Posf 
 Office could be done by men selected from those who possess the ordinary 
 qualifications and pass the ordinary standard, although, as I have already 
 suggested, I would recommend that that stand »rd be made excellent. 
 
 The Chairman: Do you mean that the sorting clerks should be recruits, 
 from the ranks of the postmen? 
 
 A. I do, sir. And we made a similar appeal to the Ridley Commission. 
 
 Q. And did the Ridlej- Corumission make any recommendation? 
 
 A. No; they did not touch it. We also presented a petition to the same 
 effect in 1892. I Avoukl sooner be a member of a crew of slaves than of 
 wrangling pirates, incapable of cojiesion and obedience. As the army, navy, 
 and police are on a common lev^l to all, except officers when beginners, so 
 should the Post Off.ce l>e, so tliat preferment shall be common property to 
 all who merit it, and authority he held by no man over another, except in 
 the case of persons promoted to supervise. 
 
 BIG WAGES TO SOME THE CAUSE OF SMALL WAGES TO 
 
 OTHERS. 
 
 I have said the high wage paid to high official-s is one of the chief 
 causes of discontent. I will add — and of low wages to postmen. Suppose a 
 sum divided into three equal parts, one for the workmen, one for super- 
 visors, and one as surjilus for the nation ; you cannot increase the amount 
 for supervision without diminishing the amount piiid to the workers, or 
 that set aside as_ surplus, without reducing workers and supervisors, and 
 so on ; but the very reason for supervision is that it is capable of getting 
 more work out of the workers, and it will be pressed by the defenders of 
 the surplus to do this, or ba depleted itself. Therefore it will endeavour 
 to cut down force or lessen wages. The same liolds witii the different 
 brandies of the Service. Unduly p.iy telegraphists and it will lie at the 
 expense of other workers or the surplus ; unduly promote them to post- 
 ma.sterships and these are lessened to others. Tiiis is ilhislrated in the 
 treatment of tlie great army of postmen, for, like those who shared among 
 them the garments of Christ, the clerks and telegraphists share between 
 them or tear from each other the privileges of the Service, and the army 
 of postmen are sent empty away. (Laughter.) The first 32 men at the 
 head of the Post Office receive £1501 2s. 6d. average salary ; that is. about 
 tlie pay of mijors-general in the army. 'Fancy, 31 majors -general as head 
 clerks ! But 1 am not sufficiently actjuainted with the Secretary's office 
 to be able to say if about two supervisors or more would be adequate 
 to that Iiuiiding. 1 do know, however, something of the excess of supervision 
 at Liverpool. In two sma.U roivms with through doors there are one chief 
 olerk at £600, one superintendent at £310, two clerks at £190 to sui)ervise 
 three telegraph lads, one sorting clerk, and each other. (Laughter.) In 
 anotlier small room (survey brancli) thert- are one superintendent at £400, 
 one at £310, and (tne at £260, and two clerks at £190 to supervise five fir.st- 
 ciass sorting clerks, liii'ee second-class ditto, and a telegrapii lad. In anotlier 
 small room with partitions there are one superintendent of accounts £400, 
 one at £310, two at £260, and four £190 men to sui)ervise two first-class 
 clerks, tiie Postmaster's servant, i.nd a telegraph lad. In another little 
 r<M)m sits the cliief superintendent at £500, another superint^'ndent at £260, 
 and one clerk at £190 to su])ervise one second-cl:iss clerk and a telegraph 
 iail. In anotlier room tiiere are one. sui)erintendent at £260, one clerk at 
 £190, and twd tirst-class .sorting clerks. .\t the counter, head office, for 
 the impm-tant and intricati: work of selling penny stamps, money orders, 
 etc., there are two sui)erintendents at £260 and four £190 men to control 
 alxHit four first-class and five second-class clerks. i
 
 Wages — Aggregate — Alleged Extfavagance. 231 
 
 The Chairman : You must he perfectly aware that that is altogether 
 an exaggerated description of the state of affairs in Liverpool? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it is a true description. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do j^ou ask us to believe that the sole duty of these superior 
 officers is to keep in order that small number of people? 
 
 A. I give it as an illustration, sir. 
 
 Q. Answer my question, please. Do you ask u.s to believe that the sole 
 duty of the.se supervising officers is to keep in order this small number of 
 1 persons ? 
 
 A. Oh, no. I do not say it is. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Tlien what do you mean ? 
 
 A. I will explain it. Will you allow me to develop the point? A super- 
 , intendent is added for governing or commanding when there is no com- 
 I manding necessary in this particular branch of official work. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Then it is a question of title, not salary? 
 
 A. It is a question of both. If you were to put an artist in the corner of 
 I the room it surely would not be necessary to give him the title of general ? 
 ' There is not in any private firm in Liverpool anything approaching this 
 I gross waste, this fearful extravagance of pui)lic money. I have observed in 
 . my 19 years that about half the time of countermen is unoccupied. I in- 
 quired of one of the hall porters, a man of the most reliable and official 
 type. He informs me, from years of ex^x^rience, it would be understating 
 their idle time to put it down to three liours out of eight. Tliey are pro- 
 vided with seats, and I find Mr. Walsh, the senior counterman, only claims 
 compensation to 1>e added to his £190 a year for the injury done to his 
 dignity by wearing uniform ; he puts forward no claim on the ground of in- 
 jury from the chairs being uncushioned. (Laughter.) It will be news to 
 postmen in Liverpool, who were turned aside by Mr. Evans, superintendent, 
 from entering objection notices, as too important for postmen, to learn 
 from Mr. Walsh that positions at the counter were open to, and had by 
 postmen in London. There are at Liverpool 79 positions at a mean average 
 of £224 t!s open to 2(j5 first and sceon I class sorting clerks, or one to I:?. 4 ; 
 I seven positions would make a supervisor to every three clerks. The gross 
 ■ amount, not including the Postmaster's salary, ex{)ended on these few 
 imen in supervisors, at the mean, is £17,720. There are 37 positions at a 
 I mean average salary of £230 10s. open to 310 telegraphi-sts, some of whom 
 are hoys ; that is one to 8.4. Tlie gi-oss anu)unt of the mean for these 
 supervisors is £8,530. There are 22 inspectorships at mean average salaries 
 of £150 13s. open to 634 postmen ; the gross amount at the mean for these 
 supervisors is £3,315. Tlie other staffs combined number 575 — 59 less than 
 the postmen — yet the amount paid for control alone amounts to £26,250. 
 These are the men with pitiful complaints who want more — ever more, it 
 matters not at whose expense, postmen's or country's. Our committee 
 complained some years since of imdue preference to a certain man ; they liad 
 an answer from the tlien Postmaster-General that the higher authority 
 never interferes in the Post Office with the recommendations of subonlinate 
 superiors. Again, more recently, the answer was repeated in another form — 
 that the Postmaster's recommendations were always satisfactory, and the 
 Postmaster-General saw no reason to interfere. I liave here a letter dat<^d 
 18th March, 1887, in which the following appears: — "The rules of the Post 
 Office are, as you are aware, so strict that it is difficult for me to s{)eak 
 to Mr. Raikes without mentioning names, and might do harm to the indi- 
 viduals. 
 
 '■ I have spoken to him, however, generally, and he contends for a prin- 
 ciple of selection for certain offices, and says that seniority cannot Ik; th«j
 
 232 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 rule in such a service as the Post Office, or they mii^iit have men appoint- 
 who were not qualiHcd for tiie offic-s. 
 
 " If, tliereforc, tlie Postmaster of LiverjM)')! rej>rcsent<'d to liini that i 
 two iiirtn aj)j)(>inti'(i were tii'? hcst suiteil, I am afraid, from wtiat he r 
 that he would not interfere further, as lie navK that it is a rule U> Itwk' 
 the juil^uuMit of the Postmast<!r, and that as a rule Mr. Kich's deciK 
 li.ive given sitisfaction at the Post Office. 
 
 "With reg;trd to t!ie appointment in Lark Lane, I understand the rn 
 was one of the wscniors, .and not a junior ; and in this case there was i 
 pissing over, as he was well acipuiinted with the district, and vas an <■ 
 otticer." 
 
 Mr. Smith : It amounts \a> saying that as a rule he trusts the Pu' 
 masters? 
 
 Witness : Yes. The .superiors are relied upon, and increase of salir 
 and increase of supervision initiated on their recommendation, an<l so v 
 liave the above picture of wanton ex|>enditure at the expense of the poor'- 
 Xxiid men and the nation. The higher officials regulate their own diiti' 
 *o we have the s|>ectacle of two superintendents — £400 men--in ('.]'• 
 fviiverpool, on early duty tog._'ther when there is practiciilly nothing doie. 
 I have seen them chatting ami wasting valuable time for half-an-hour at oi 
 sj)ell, and K'coming suddenly busy, acconifiany with a third superintend") 
 at £310 one solitary stamiMjr to the door with the outgoing London > 
 Isle of Man mail. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What o'clock was this? 
 
 A. It would be about 11 o'clock. I sliould propo.se, in the interests of tl 
 ration and tlie weaker servants, that a committse of three nieml>ers 
 Parliament and three elected postiil pensioners assist the Postmaster-Gener 
 to hear ap[)eals. make grants, and accept or reject proposals for increa- 
 and decrease of salaries, together with receiving tenders for contracts : 
 whatever distance from London. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : One of the duties of the Postmaster-General is to ^ecei^ 
 tenders. 
 
 The Chairman : Surely you are going outside your case again ? 
 
 Witness: It is only by the way of reference. You see what a protectic 
 this would have b.^en to Mr. Morley when he .said he dreaded to tal- 
 over the mail-cart, service, becau.^e of the ex|)ense of highly-paid official. 
 and it was no doubt on this account he was prevented from relieving tlie- 
 poor scarecrow men and horses from the sweaters. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Mr. Morley never said anything of the kind. 
 
 Witness : I now come to the estimate of the demands put in by teh 
 giuphists, and propose to .show Iiow postmen fared in "91, after the otliei 
 had been dealt with. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Wliat is this about? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Telegi-aphists' wages. 
 
 Witness : It is really a summary of what it will cost and how we fare 
 in consequence of the other increases. I will go into that later on. 
 notice that there is no tangible estimate by the telegraph and other higlih 
 paid sections. Mr. Fischer not even a.ffording an approximate estimate < 
 the cost of the required additions. Well may the revenue, like Mercutic 
 complain that an attempt is made to scratch it to death. I will roughl 
 sujnmarise the telegraphists' requests, together with their probable ex 
 pense to the country. They want seven hours a day instead of eight- 
 one-eighth of the salary of the first and .second classe.s. They want an extr. 
 week annual leave — one fifty-second of the same. The first and secon(
 
 Wages— Aggfegate— ■Estimates. 23-^ 
 
 asses in London and the provinces mimlier 6,221. wlioSe mean wages are 
 •.72,894 8s ^ + -5^ = ^',^^, and Vo\ of XJ72,Mt4 8!=. is £M2,(i2S l.Ss. lO^d. 
 
 !Mr. Scott asked that 4s. extra l)e given at tive years' service. 
 
 J aflFect those also wlio liave passed tlie " jump " stage, 
 say one-half of the secimd-cluss at £10 8s. per man 
 (£114 8s. })er man in 11 years), £22,609 12 d 
 
 r. North wants a pn^jxjrtionate increase for the seniors, 
 based on £14 8s. and £6 enjovetl l)v first and second 
 —that is. £15 10s. 7d. for 213 senWs, - - - £3,307 14 3 
 
 e also complains his C division has only one-third, of tlie 
 number it should have — he does not say t'ley are re- 
 quired, or that there is work, but on tliis point he 
 provides a remedy in suggesting tiiat their hours be 
 shortened; this little increase would cost - - - £24,140 
 
 <ie abolition of chissitication raises the mean from 34s. 
 
 to 38.S. per week, a difference per year of - - - £41.740 8 
 
 Mcy want pension after 25 years" service, also heirs pro- 
 vided for — say one-half present telegraph j)en.sion 
 • charge, £20,203 10 
 
 .!ie telegraph branch cost, the piving jKirt of the Post 
 
 Office last year U) make up deficit, - - - - £124,000 
 
 HI these little items give a prosjwct of debt for next vear 
 
 of ' - £318.630 3 1 
 
 while less than 7.000 telegraphists only will have V)ecn 
 appeased. 11.626 female telegraphists, sorting clerks, 
 and sorters remain to be dealt with. 
 
 IThe Chairman : Ha<l you not better ienre alone the otiier branches of 
 i>ur own service, Mr. Walsh, and confine yourself to explaining the wants 
 d demands of the postmen, and tlie estimated cost of satisfying those 
 mands ? 
 
 A. This is a point you cannot get over. If you increase tlie salary of 
 e branch it is fre([uently at the expense of another, and we l>elieve it 
 ■s been repeatedly at our expense that the other sections of the Post Office 
 rvice have had their salaries increased. 
 
 ^Mr. Walpole : You want strongly to urge on this Committee not fo 
 urease any salaries in the Post;il Service except those of postmen? 
 A. Yes, sir, I do. 
 
 *Mr. Smith : Is that not enough. Avithout going into the question whetlier 
 e estimates are sound or unsound? 
 
 A. I am not saying whether they are sound or unsound. 
 The Chairman : Your evidence cannot be of much value unless you give 
 ; your estimate of the cost of j'our proposal. Lots of time has been con- 
 med. 
 
 Ar I will supply our estimate. 
 
 Q. Give us the estimate for your own particular branch. I do not want 
 )ur estimate with regard to other parts of the Service. 
 A. You do not think I a-m capable? 
 
 The Chairman : I do not think you have the necessaiy knowledge. 
 A. The only way to deal with the subject is that which I have adopted 
 my statement, which I hope you will allow me to read. 
 Q. Wlien do you suppose we shall finish this Inquiry? 
 A. I will not take very long. I am simply giving the result. 
 Mr. Smith : Your items cannot be verified or discussed. They refer to 
 other branch of the subject, on which you cannot have the data for 
 rming an estimate. It does not affect your case.
 
 234 John AValsh, Liverpool. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I hope you will confine it to your own opinion. I trust it 
 is not the opinion of postmen generally. 
 
 Witne.ss : It is our general opinion that other classes have received in- 
 creases of pay at the expense of the postmen. Perhaps it is not apparent 
 how postmen suffer by these lavish salaries to telegraphists and others. A 
 postman at Aberayon— the father of five children — ^gets 7s. per week, say 
 for 48 hours' hard work. A telegraphist at the same place gets, say 40s. 
 for 48 hours' work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know that postman ? 
 
 A. I put it in hypothetically. As a matter of fact, I have had informa- 
 tion that it is so. 
 
 Q. I am quite sure it is not so. 
 
 A. Vei'V well, sir, I will accept that ; but I may suggest tliat it may 
 occur in other parts of the country. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you really believe there is any postman doing 48 hours 
 a week and only getting 7s. ? 
 
 A. It came out before the late Postmaster-General that such things oc- 
 curred in Ireland and elsewhere. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that at tliis moment there is a postman in this 
 country doing 48 hours a week and receiving 7s.? 
 
 A. I hope not. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then why do you put in this case ? 
 
 A. I am putting it in hypothetically. 
 
 The Chairman : We do not want hypothetical cases. 
 
 Mr. Smith : If you don't believe in it, it amounts to nothing. 
 
 A. I am simply telling how the postmen suffer. The postman returns ■ 
 to the shopkeepers who supply him with br&id, meat, and vegetables, 73., 
 or 48 hours' hard lalx)ur. Tlie telegraphist gets 7.s. worth of service from 
 the shopkeepers, etc., similar to the postman, and pays the community with 
 8 hours 24 minutes' labour. The clerk's comjjarative luxury, if properly 
 understood, is the cause of a postman's misery. Let a rich farmer pamper 
 one child and unduly stint otiicrs of his family, and the law will ajid has 
 interfered. If a contented and liappy Service is desired, there will be only 
 one class in the Service below supervisors, and postmen will be of that 
 class. Instead of this 56s. and £190, if all workers, outdoor and indoor, 
 rose to 45s. per week in all towns where postmen are paid 24s. now and 
 upwards, uniformity and contentment would be possible, which never will 
 be attained by favouring one section at the expense of tlie other. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I deny that. 
 
 Witness : All right, sh-. I may a<ld that I estimate the saving to the De- 
 partment by the arr.mgement I projMJsc at £186,876 16s. 
 
 I5ENEFITS TO THE SERVICE. 
 
 Transfer from telegraphist or clerk to outdoor officership, by men unfit 
 for indoor work, would bj an easy matter, as it would c<arry with it 
 no pecuniary (li-sadvantage or disgrace, and indoor work ceasing to be 
 regarded as a preserve of privileges would not be coveted by jwsfcmen afl 
 it now is. A more healthy state would accrue ; postmen trusted more and 
 tlirown on their own resources Avould develop (lu-dities (for deficiency of 
 which they are blamed, though tliey have never had an opjx)rtunity to 
 cultivate them), and clerks, finding the Department no hmger forcibly 
 keeping down the great mass of their fellow-Wdrkers, tliat they might 
 more easily and as a matter of course attain promotion, would exert them- 
 selve.s to compel it l)y merit.
 
 Wages — Aggregate — Final Appeal. 235 
 
 MR. MORLEY'S PROPORTIONATE INCREASE TO POSTMEN. 
 
 Now, as to Mr. Morley's statement that ])ostinen got an increase of 
 wages proportionate to other classes in the Service, bear in mind, my lord, 
 my illustration of the pseudo benefit conferred on Liverpool postmen. That 
 illustration points to what we have believed all along, that the supjxjsed 
 increases of salary are often increa.ses of staff. 
 
 Mr. Smith: When did Mr. Morley say that? 
 
 A. It was said in the House of Commons. I <lo not know the date. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He said " corresi^ondingly." 
 
 A. It amounts to practically the same thing. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you should (|Uote Mr. Morley's exact words. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, he said nothing of the kind you have 
 stated. What Le did s.iy was that certain increases had Ijeen made to 
 certain branche-s, and then lie said tliat the postmen would get a corres- 
 ponding increase. 
 
 A. Yes, yes. The Postmaster-General's report states that since 1881 
 £747,980 has been granted, and of this siipyrvisors, sorters, and clerks have 
 received £492,330, and postmen, etc., £255,650, a difference of 90 |>er cent. 
 in favour of the upper sections, who are in number 73 per cent, less than 
 postmen. In '91, after the other sections had received Sunday pay and 
 other splendid advantages granted, and just two or three months before 
 we got our revision, we received a letter at Liverpool in Mr. Raikes' o'wn 
 handwriting, stating that he had no intention whatever to alter in any way 
 the pay or other conditions of postmen, but, thanks to the power of Par- 
 liament, he had to change his attitude towards us. The letter read: — 
 
 Dear Whitley, — The scheme improving the position of employee.s in 
 this Department, which has recently been promulgated, had reference mainly 
 to the sorting clerks and telegraphists, and it has not been proposed to make 
 any change as regards i^ostnien, but I am glad I have been able to obtain 
 the consent of the Treasury to enable the postmen to participate in the 
 Bank Holidays, or receive pay in lieu of them. Tlie memorial from tiie 
 postmen, to which you call attention, is receiving consideration. 
 
 We had at thi.s time no Sunday pay and only 4d. per hour for overtime. 
 
 The Chairman: But you have Sunday pay now? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; but I am only showing whdt has liappened, and how it was 
 intended to treat us until we brought the power of members of Parliament 
 to press our case on the authorities. 
 
 The Chairman : Y'ou had a revision ? 
 
 A. Yes : twelve months after the clerks. 
 
 FINAL APPEAL. 
 
 In pressing the Committee to recommend that the postmen's increment 
 be iPiCreased from Is. lo 2s., I but ask what the telegraphists regard as 
 an imperceptible increase ; our men have the same necessities, and, losing 
 a greater amount of physical energy, require better nutriment to sustain 
 the strain. Compare for one moment our younger men to American post- 
 men — our young fellows work side by side with senio" men, t.nd do similar 
 work, but receive only hailf the \rages, and have 15 ye<irs to run the gaunt- 
 let of .satisfactory conduct as well as wear and tear before they receive 
 the maximum. Two years after appointment the American receives the 
 splendid maximum of £208 6s. 8d. It cost America in salaries this vear 
 for 12,744 carriers £2,451,194 10s. 2d., and £66.375 to substitute tlie.se on 
 annual leave. Our 24.556 estal>lished postmen cost at the mean £1,338.564 
 8s., a difference of £1.112 640 2s. 2d. expended by America (without the 
 money on sub.?titutes) on her postmen, which are a little over half our nura-
 
 286 
 
 John Wal.sh, Liverpool. 
 
 ber. S<) mucli for the generosity of Great Britiiiii U) lier workers. Our 
 claim for £2 a week all round would increase the annual cost £576,813 12b., 
 or by giving towns now receiving 24s. and upwards £2, and those receivin;; 
 22s. and under 30s. (the lower rati would affect 9.900 men), and the cost 
 would then be £448,530 10s., a reduction of £128,700. Men work to live, 
 and should have the means to live a healthy and comfortable life. The 
 amount we ask seems large, but it is less than our just dues. The j>opula- 
 tion is about 40,000,000 ; sui)iM)se one in five taxpiyers, the cost to eax;h 
 woulil not aiiHJUnt to Is. 2d. a year. Take income tax as a bisis ; in 1889 
 taxed incomes amounted to £645.000,000 on incomes of £160. It would 
 aanount to 2s. 2^(1. a year, and for thesj fractions of charge 24,556 postmen, 
 with about twice their number dependent upon them, could be made com- 
 fortttble and liaj)])v, and even this intinittwimil charge to each would almost 
 disappear if organising cipacity were displayed in piring down gross ex- 
 travagance in the Post Office. I may tell you, my lord, that the estimate 
 you mentioned on Mond:iy is nearly right. It is the difference between two 
 means I have given ; yours is the armual cost. 
 
 Mr. Walsh, in the cour.se of his evidence, also laid before the Committee 
 the following table, giving 
 
 A Few Specimen Cabes of the Relief Force Mek, Liveepool, and 
 Showing the Age of Men on Appointment. 
 
 
 1 
 
 Service as 
 
 Wages as Tel. 
 
 Names. 
 
 Da»e of Age wh«n 
 
 Telegriph 
 
 Messengers and 
 
 
 Appointment. Appointed. 
 
 Messenger*. 
 
 Assist. PoBtmen. 
 
 A. E. Peck, - 
 
 11th Aug., 1892. 21 years. 
 
 5j^ years. 
 
 18/- per week. 
 
 R. 0. Parry, - 
 
 10th Nov., 1892, 20tV years. 
 
 5:r years, 
 
 18/- per week, 
 
 J. W. Gregg, 
 
 .5th Jan., 1893. 20; yors, 
 
 5^ years, 
 
 18/- per week, 
 
 J. Nixon, 
 
 19th April, 1893, 20| years, 
 16th May, 1893, 20| years, 
 
 5i years, 
 
 18/- per week, 
 
 J. Richardson, 
 
 5^ years, 
 
 IS/- per week, 
 
 W. J. Hind, - 
 
 16th June, 1893, 20| years. 
 
 5J years, 
 
 18 '- per week, 
 
 W. Price, - 
 
 10th Nov., 1892, 19 ^ years, 
 20|^ years, 
 
 5V years, 18/- per week. 
 
 Average, - 
 
 5| .years, 
 
 18/- per week, 
 
 Wages. 
 
 Names. 
 
 A. E. Peck, - 
 R. O. Parry, - 
 J. W. Gregg, - 
 J. Nixon, 
 J, Richardson, 
 W. J. Hind, - 
 W. Price, 
 Av erage, 
 
 Wages on 
 Appointment. 
 
 17/- per 
 17/- per 
 17/- per 
 17/- per 
 17/- per 
 17/- per 
 17/- per 
 17/- per 
 
 week, 
 week, 
 week, 
 week, 
 week, 
 week, 
 week, 
 week, 
 
 Age when 21/- 
 wi.l be had. 
 
 25 years, 
 2ij\ years, 
 2ii years, 
 2il years, 
 24| year<?, 
 24j years, 
 23 fi years, 
 2 If years, 
 
 Age when 30/- 
 
 and stripes will 
 
 be had. 
 
 36 
 
 35rV 
 
 3-4 
 
 35i 
 
 35i 
 
 35| 
 
 3ii 1 
 
 35^ 
 
 years, 
 years, 
 years, 
 years, 
 years, 
 years, 
 years, 
 years. 
 
 Eem'rks. 
 
 These men averige 
 about '2J years on 
 this relief force, 
 during which their 
 Xmas Boxes do not 
 amount to much. 
 
 Service as Tel. Mee. 
 and Auxiliary it not 
 included in the Tel. 
 Mes. Service. 
 
 These men lose 1/ on 
 appointment. 
 
 SUPERANNUATION— LONDON AND PROVINCIAL. 
 
 Before beginning my statement on the superannuation question, I may 
 mention that I am speaking upon it for the whole country. My colleague 
 in London has retired, and the London representatives have passed a vote
 
 Superannuation — "What the Postmen Desire. 237 
 
 of confidence in me as capable of dealing witli tliis question for the post- 
 men generally. 
 
 The Chairman : I must ask you to comj)ress this sufficiently to enable you 
 to finish to-day. I really cannot go on after four o'clock. 
 
 Witues.'? : Of course not. 
 
 The Chairman : And I cannot take you as a witness on another day. 
 
 WHAT THE POSTMEN DESIRE. 
 
 Witness : After wages there is no subject of such consequence to postmen 
 as per sions. The Committee, therefore, over which your lordship presides, 
 in addition to being regarded by postiaeu as a judgment seat for tiie right- 
 ing of long-accumulated wrongs, is an object for anxious speculation and 
 hope HS to it5 recommendations on this question. We think your counsel 
 should make an Act of Parliament jxissible to lessen our qualifying {period 
 of service, so that some vitality may remain to allow of our enjoying a 
 pension ; also, that such pension sliall l>e sufficient to support a man with 
 some degree of comfort without competing with other workers; and. lastly, 
 that some provision shall hs made for our wives ami children in the 
 event of our death. The profit maile on our work can and ought to admit 
 of provision such a,s we ask. Concede this, and the prosi)ect of security 
 from want in our old age (with the knowledge that death will not condemn 
 our wives to the degradation of charing, or hateful outdoor relief, but 
 enable them to cherish and bring up healthy and sturdy British children) 
 will do iimch to enhance our lives, and content a body of workers who are 
 the mainstay of the Postal System. Mr. Boulden. telegraphist, made a 
 claim on behalf of the telegrapli section for exceptional treatment, and your 
 lordship entered a caveat, as I understand, at the lameness of this sectional 
 method. If there is a body in the Service which deserves exceptional treat- 
 ment, both on account of the meagi-eness of wages making provision for 
 old age impossible, and on account of the grinding cliaracter of the work, 
 that body is the postmen ; but in claiming just treiitment postmen do not 
 desire unjust treatment to any other section of workers. If, as British 
 citizens and tax-payers, we should limit or suggest a limit to the applica- 
 tion of our sclieme, we would draw the line at men receiving over £300 per 
 annum. For what has been already said as to the unequal advantages of 
 the few, lessening to starvation point the wages of the many, applies with 
 greater force to tlie distribution of the j>ension fund. My figures and com- 
 parisons are, of course, to build up anfl sustain the postmen's case. The 
 superior knowledge and intelligence of the other sections will enable them 
 to investigate these matters and devise their own remedies. Our scheme 
 is simple, direct, and easy of application. It is the result of due delibera- 
 tion and unanimous approval on the part of the late Conference of post- 
 men, and I can say will be a satisfactory solution of the pension question. 
 It will, if granted, set at rest the just claims of postmen for the present 
 generation. It is as follows : — 
 
 That the postmen of the United Kingdom be allowed to retire after 30 
 years' service. Tlie rate at 30 years' service, and at all periods at which 
 pension is grantvul, to be l-45fch instead of l-60th of their wages for each 
 year served, and widows of postmen who die in the Service, or, after 
 being pensioned, provideil they were married to the said postmen before 
 their retirement, or had l>een two years married prior to the husband's 
 death while he was in the Service, to receive pensions of 10s. per week 
 during widoMdiood, cliildren to receive 3s. |>er week each up to 15 years of 
 age. I am informed that postmen were the last in the Postal Service to 
 receive a pension, the solicitude of the heads of the Postal Service, in 
 former times as now, V>eing entirely absorbed in looking after the pensions 
 and emoluments of the higher ofiicials.
 
 2;38 John AV\i,sir, [JvLM-fxiol. 
 
 POSTMEN'S PENSION AS COMPARED WITH ENGLISH, WELSH, 
 AND IRISH POLICE. 
 
 Tlie police have been and are nuich l)etber cared for. Parliament, since 
 1839, has pasHed no fewer than nine Acts in the interest of tiie English and 
 Welsli i)olice. The.se nuinher aixnit 80,000, and all are enabled, by Act of 
 I'arlianient, to retire at 25 years" service, the scile l)eing at 25 not less than 
 30-60ths or more than 31-50ths of their wages ; that is to siy, the maximum 
 of police Avagcs being about 30s. jjer week throughout the country, and in 
 no instance touching the low level of the postmen. The policeman retires 
 at 25, as though he had 30 years' service as a postman ; and if the police 
 autliority like to award 31-50ths, their wages supposed the sinie, viz., 
 30s. jM-r week, tlie postman would receive 12s. 6d. while the policeman 
 would receive 18s. 7d. per week i^nsion for tlie same service. In Liverpool 
 and many other towas the police retire at 26 years' service with two-thirds 
 pay as jwnsion. In case of accident or disablement the policeman may be 
 awarded full pay as pension at any jKjriod of his service. The %vives and 
 children of police officers are pensioned, the widow £15 i)er annum, and the 
 children £2 10s. a year eacli. that is if the husband has l>een killed in the 
 Service. In case of constables wlio die from natural causes in the 
 Service, or after being pensioned, gratuities are granted at a rat« of one 
 month's j)ay for each ;ipproved year's service to the widow and children. 
 The Royal Irish Constabulary, over 12,000 strong, and directly employed by 
 the Government, is still more favourably treated. At 26 years' service 
 constiibles can retire on 30-60tlis of their pay ; that is. at 25 years an Irish 
 constable retires with the same pension as the postman has to serve 36 
 years for. At 28 years' .service he receives two-thirds pay as pension. 
 There are no deductions from the pay of Irish constables who have joined 
 since 1883. Tliere are exceptional rates for constables injured in the Ser- 
 vice, and widows and children in case of the constables death by violence 
 receive pensions — the Avidow during widowhood, and the children up to 
 15 years of age. The widows and chihlren of const<ible.s dying after 15 
 years' completed service are also i)ensioned. though the constables die from 
 natural causes. It is inexplicable that the postman worker, whose vitality 
 is consumed at sucli a rate, should have no adequate provision made 
 for the wrecked and used-up part left; him of life, when the country ha.s 
 had its pound of flesh, while such jealous care is taken of the unused and 
 able-bodied policeman, who may be s;iid rather to have rusted than worn 
 in his country's service. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not the case that the police have to contribute a 
 certain amount to the superannuation fund — that it is, in fact, held back 
 from his weekly wages? 
 
 A. In the case of tlie Irish police they do not, but in the ca.se of the Eng- 
 lish and Welsli police they do. I thoroughly believe — and I shall be coming 
 to that later on, at the end of my statement--that our men, rather than that 
 the present state of things should continue, would, if their demand for 
 £2 be granted, be willing to make the slight contribution necessary for the 
 pension. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Have you finished your comparison with the police? 
 You are aware, I suppose, of the great ri.sk to life which they run in view 
 of the circumstances under which they carry out their duties, 'the frequency 
 with wliich they are iniared, and the 'manner in which their vitality is used 
 up. while, as a rule, the postmen do not get assaulted two or three times 
 a week? 
 
 A. No, sir; but. as a matter of fact, assaults on tlse police are not 
 frequent. Young constables are mostly put to the rough work on that 
 account.
 
 Superannuation. 239 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Ydu are quite in error. I sat on a Committee which 
 considered the question, and the qualification for this pen.sion was entirely 
 the frequency of as.saultS and the manner in which ix)licemen are used up by 
 tliem. After 25 years" service they are quite unable to go on. 
 
 Witness : I think I could demonstrate a different state of things. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That, at all events, was the ground upon whicli the 
 pension was settled. If that was wrong, then tlie Committee came to a 
 wrong conclusion. 
 
 Witness : As a matter of fact, after they are pensioned they occupy Some 
 of the l>e.st positions open to working men. 
 
 NATURE OF THE POSTMEN'S WORK. 
 
 If we suppose in a community of four, one nian to sow, reap, and thresh 
 com, grind it and make ib into bread ; another to make wool anil fibrous 
 material into clothes ; another to kill cattle, jjrovide meat, and make l)oot8 
 from the hides ; and the fourth set over the other three to keep tliem peace- 
 ful and honest, we shall understind that three are engaged in hard labour 
 to provide themselves and the policeman bread, meat, boots, and clothes, 
 and that his return service of watching is the easiest and least laborious. 
 But what would be thought of those from whom the severest service was 
 exacted, if they were fools enough to almost neglect provision for their old 
 age and offsprings in comparison to the lavishnes.s of their provision for 
 those of the policeman, who had always been a cause of greater exertion 
 or service to them ? Now, in the present complex state of society our return 
 service to the community calls us forth at all times of day or night, to face 
 all weathers, storms, frost and rain, to be oft<?n drenched to the .skin two or 
 three times in one day, to cross bleak mountains and marshes, becoming 
 benumbed and frozen to carts. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Does that occur in Liverpool? (Laughter.) 
 
 W^itness : I am speaking for the whole country. We are sometimes be- 
 numbed and frozen, even to the extent of being unable to dismount until 
 lifted down. We have to enter foetid slum.'! and climb hundred.s of stairs 
 with loads of from 30 to 95 lbs. weight — I think I have sufliiciently demon- 
 strated this — and all the time the strain on the mind never ceasing, for 
 there are incjuiries to make here, and itnswers t-o give there, charges to 
 collect, and, above all, a far-reaching code of discipline to comply with. 
 This service makes it unnecesary for the farmer to leave his plough to take 
 his message to the town ; tlie lawyer need not use valualile thne carrjnng 
 a message to his client; the nobleman need not leave his chateau, nor the 
 cotter keep from his work to cany a message to a distant friend. The 
 community go on oblivious that they are spared all this exertion and more, 
 by the efforts of their postmen. But if we do good and necessary service, 
 we require an equitable and honest order in the shape of money to obtain 
 a return service from the conmiunity, such as shall not only keep us in comfort 
 and health when working, but sustain us and those dependent upon us in our 
 old age. Our treatment in the past is not creditable to those who should 
 have taken care of us, nor does it reflect well on ourselves to be practically 
 in the position of the three workers I have described, without intervening 
 our intelligence to bring about more equitable treatment as regards pension. 
 I see Dr. Wilson's salary is £!930. I suppose his work is from 4 to 6 hours a 
 day. In all instances of men so salaried and so worked I observe the diffi- 
 culty is to get them to retire from the Service. Dr. Wilson's evidence 
 boats anything I have ever read, even in the care for and treatment of slaves. 
 The evidence in the Maybrick case as to how a man's liver should be pounded 
 was human in comparison. 
 
 The Chairman : Please do not go into those matters.
 
 240 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 Witness (continuing) : First British lads, the sons of working men, are 
 engaged to work, and if the severest form of work in tiie country does not 
 wreck them in six months it may l)e it will in two years ; if not, tlien 
 flVe years will tell a tile. I am glad this Committee was aj)ixi,lled by sucli 
 evidence. You arc first t<j si|ueeze out of the lails all the energy jxissihle, 
 then throw away the husk. The reverse operation, liowever, he recommends 
 at tlie other end. You are to keej) them in liarness while tlie slightest 
 energy remains until they are killed off. Dr»es our country need all this ; 
 nuist a copper or two |)er heiwl he siived at the exi>euse of human life? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Dr. Wilson said nothing of the kind that you are putting 
 into his mouth. 
 
 Witness : I had better finLsh it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : We have got his evidence. 
 
 Witness : But he implies what I suggest by not wanting to limit the term 
 we have to serve for jjension. He wants to keep \in as long an he can, in 
 order that we may be killed off. He siys 4.2 per 1.000 is extremely low for 
 a death rate, but that 6.39, the postman's de.ith rate, is high in comparii»on 
 to the I^gistrar-General's returns ; yet his is only a return of men serving, 
 and does not include the deaths of the pensioned. He says one-fourth of 
 the candidates are rejected at the first examination, and that the final ex- 
 amination is not (juite so high — say for tlie intermedial* and final another 
 fourth — tliat is 50 per cent, rejected. He ha.s not got his probation extended 
 ti five or ten year.s yet. Well. note, the weak or dying branches are lopjjed 
 off at both ends, and tlien this fair and imp;irtial statistician compares 
 the sound lives after the unhealthy have been extracted, witli un.selected 
 lives, cripples and diseased of all trades, yet the j>ostmen"s death rate is 
 high in conijiarison to the Registrar-General's returns. I find his pen- 
 sioned of 6.3 per 1,000 is more favourable to a pension scheme than my 
 ■j^rj per cent., the difference of y^ij of a per cent, between us, is, no doubt, 
 tlirougii my including porters and labourers in my j)en.sioned, though I do 
 not include the body of labourers from which tliey Mere drawn to base them 
 on. 
 
 SIR W. B. RICHARDSON OX POSTMEN'S WORK. 
 
 To sliow the effect on life of tlie service we render. I quote Dr. Sir W. 
 B. Richardson, one of the first authorities of the day on such a subject. 
 This evidence is the more valuable from not having been procured. It was 
 given as part of a lecture in August, 189D. before the Sanitary Institute 
 at Brighton. "There are some callings," said Dr. Richardson, "which on 
 account of their monotony and steady wear and tear from constant work 
 require the same regular limitation of time. The postman is an excellent 
 illustration of the class of worker included under this head. The work 
 of the postman is one continuous busy-go-round ; he is on his feet during 
 the whole of his working hours. The result is that the postm.n wears out 
 fast. Tiie late meilical officer to the Greneral Post Office — Dr. Waller Lewis 
 — was fully alive to the fact. He referred to it in liis reports, and he 
 several times spoke to me about it. There are some men, he told me, who 
 sustained the tedious labour fairly, but none bore it well, and the weaker 
 ones but badly. The effect generally was to produce premature old age ; 
 in other words, shortening the life of the worker.'" The telegraphists 
 make a strong point of their sedentary occupation and cramped position at 
 work predisposing to respiratory disease. Let them have a turn at stair- 
 climbing with heavy loads, and they will begin to know something of hard 
 work, wear and tear, and the long life Dr. Richardson refers to. as re- 
 served for postmen whose occupation is not sedentary.
 
 Superannuation — Comparisons. 241 
 
 COMPARISON WITH OTHER POST OFFICE PENSIONS. 
 
 My experience is that so-called sedentary occupations in the Post Office 
 are closely allied to, if not synonyms to express " light work, abnormally 
 high wages, and long life." In the 1893 and 1894 Estimates I tind 44 Po-st 
 masters, surveyors, and secret^iries were pensioned. Their average ages 
 were WA>, their average pensions IlL'.i'i per cent, of tlieir own wajies, (WiJ 
 being the highest point obtainable, and 28 of them, by overstaying tlieir 
 pensi(jnable age and service, relieved their country of no less a sum than 
 £38,722 2s. Id. Only one of the 44 is given in the death column of the 
 same Estimates, that is 2.3 per cent. In the same year 156 {K)stmen were 
 pensioned, averaging 65.8 years of age and 27.4 of service. Their pen- 
 sions were only 45.6 per cent, of their wages. There were seven deaths 
 of these pensioned in the same year, tliat is 4.5 })er cent., or ne;irly double 
 the Postmaster's death rate. In 1894 and 1895 there were 14 Postmasters 
 pensioned, and no deaths of these in the same ye:ir. The iK)stmen numbered 
 166, but 14 of them, or 8.4 per cent., died in tiie same year. In 1895 and 
 1896 the Postmasters pensioned were 19; of these no de:iths are recorded. 
 There were pensioned in the same year 160 postmen; of these pensioned 
 11 again were dead ; that is. 6.8 per cent. In four years — '92. '3, '4, and '5 
 — -there were pensioned 109 Postmnsters, surveyor.s, and secretaries ; of 
 these two died in the year they were pensioned. In the same four years 
 635 postmen were pensionetl ; 37 died in the ye^vr they were pensioned, a 
 difference of 4 per cent., or an accelerated death rate of 4 to 1 in the first 
 I)en.sioned \e<jr for the postmen j)ensioners. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Do you mean 37 of the identical postmen who were 
 pensioned in that year? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smith: And they died within the year? 
 
 A. Yes ; they died within the year. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Ami how did you a.scertain that? 
 
 A. It is in the Estimates. 
 
 Q. Are the particular men named? 
 
 A. Y^es ; I am piepared to put in an explanatory table if necessary. In 
 the four years referred to the p^msions of 12.3 per cent, of tlie postmen 
 were under 6s. jHjr week, and an additional 24.8 per cent, of them under 
 10s per week. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do those figures refer to tht Ivondon staff? 
 
 A. No ; to the whole country.
 
 242 
 
 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 This is the explanatory table :- 
 
 
 
 
 t-, 
 
 !^l. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 •S 
 
 o n d 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5§ 
 
 5 c>> 
 
 Ig 
 
 
 
 K 
 
 
 
 
 n 
 
 
 
 <) 
 
 S 
 >< 
 
 
 
 * a 2 
 f £.2 
 C § c 
 
 t: a ft 
 
 a, « 
 
 n 
 
 < 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -t" B. I). 
 
 Male Telegraphists, 
 
 1892-3 
 
 19 
 
 14-7 
 
 26-3 
 
 22 6 
 
 50 14 44 
 
 
 1893-4 
 
 11 
 
 9-1 
 
 81 -a 
 
 25-5 
 
 49 17 8f 
 
 
 1894-5 
 
 21 
 
 190 
 
 52-4 
 
 22-9 
 
 49 19 5 
 
 
 1895-6 
 
 16 
 
 6-2 
 
 43'8 
 
 221 
 
 48 14 li 
 
 
 Mean 
 
 16-7 
 
 122 Isi-l 
 
 23-3 
 
 49 1 4J 
 
 Female Telegraphists, Re- 
 
 1892-3 
 
 14 
 
 ... 14-3 
 
 18-8 
 
 29 1 5f 
 
 turns and Counter- 
 
 1893-4 
 
 31 
 
 6-4 6-4 
 
 21-6 
 
 38 10 21 
 
 Women, also Women 
 
 1894-5 
 
 28 
 
 3-5 1 39-3 ! 18-6 
 
 33 11 Of 
 39 1 III 
 
 Supervisors, 
 
 1895-6 
 
 37 
 
 2-7 
 
 13-5 20-8 
 
 
 Mean 
 
 27-5 
 
 31 
 
 18-4 19-9 
 
 35 1 21 
 
 Overseers, Sorters, and 
 
 1892-3 
 
 21 
 
 4-7 
 
 90-5 29-7 
 
 73 19 1 
 
 Sorting Clerks, - 
 
 1893-4 
 
 28 
 
 7-9 
 
 27-3 31-0 
 
 76 4 9i 
 
 
 1894-5 
 
 33 
 
 60 
 
 51-5 
 
 30-9 
 
 77 6 8i 
 
 
 1895-6 
 
 28 
 
 17-8 
 
 78-5 
 
 26-5 
 
 60 17 lOi 
 
 
 Mean 
 
 27-5 
 
 91 
 
 66-9 
 
 29 5 
 
 72 2 1 
 
 Postmen, - _ _ 
 
 1892-3 
 
 153 
 
 3-2 
 
 103-9 
 
 28-8 
 
 31 8 5 
 
 
 1893-4| 
 
 156 
 
 4-5 
 
 91-0 
 
 27-4 
 
 29 3 OJ 
 
 
 1894-5 
 
 166 
 
 8-4 
 
 101-8 
 
 27-0 
 
 32 11 lU 
 
 
 1895-6 
 
 160 
 
 6-7 
 
 86-8 
 
 28-8 
 
 35 17 4 
 
 
 Mean 
 
 158-7 
 
 5-7 
 
 958 
 
 28 
 
 32 5 2i 
 
 Average for first three- 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 divisions, - 
 
 
 23 9 
 
 81 
 
 44-1 
 
 24-2 
 
 52 1 6i 
 
 Difference, - - - 
 
 
 134.8 
 
 2-4 
 
 51-7 
 
 3-8 
 
 19 16 41 
 
 A Comparison with thk Sobtees. 
 
 ''S 
 To inciease £32 os. 2^6. tc-^£lO 15s. Ofd. vould be required. 
 45 
 
 The total, £43 Os. 3d.. wo-alJ be still £9 Is. 3i<i. short of the sorter's 
 and C's. average. The postmen ask forty-fifths instead of sixtieths to be 
 their rate of pension ; the average of the above divisions, taken separately, 
 is already more than postmen are asking for. The postman gets £32 bs..2^. 
 for 28 years' service ; for 24.2 years' service (the other sections" average) 
 he woulii only get £27 17s. 7|d., or £24 3s. lOfd. less than those named, for 
 the same number of years" service. My former contention, anii Dr. Ricliard- 
 son's also, that postmen wear out fast, and ai-e dying whea pensioned, is
 
 Superannuation. 243 
 
 liorne out by the percentage of deaths to tlie number i>ens!oned. The otiier 
 sections have 2.4 per c-?nt. more deaths in tlie first jwnsioned year, but in 
 til*- annual deiith rate of all the pensioners as a percentage of the jjensioned 
 in tiie saTiie year, they are 51.7 j^er c?nt. better off than postmen. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You say their death rate is 51 per cent, better than that 
 of tlie postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; the difference of percentage as against the postman is 51. 
 
 Q. The postmen die faster? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smi'Jh : The percentcige is the perjent^ige of deaths of pensioners, 
 calculated on the number, not of all the pensioners, bub of those pensioned 
 in a particular year? 
 
 A. It v.'ould be the same thing if I kised it on the tot;il number. I do 
 it tlie same as in the Estimates. The pension of tlie other sections then, 
 l)eing already nearly double that of postmen, it favours an addition being 
 given only where it is badly needed. Attempting to satisfy the craving 
 for money of highly-p;iid officials simply places a larger amount of cajiital 
 in the hands of me.T witli safe incomes to enable them to compete against 
 business men wlio luive no security. It is iimiecessary, and ^^■ill not even 
 satLsfy. To illustrate this let riie cite a Gise : — Mr. Banning ceased re- 
 ceiving pension in '91, the cause being his having committed suicide because 
 his investment in salt shares had not turned out prohfcible. His j)ension 
 was £1,133 19s. 3d., his salary, therefore, £1,700 17s. lO^^d. £1,0C0 
 of this Slim saved for ten years would have given him a capital of £10,000, 
 whicii, at 4 per cent., would have yielded £400 to add to his pension, or 
 even at the low rate of 2| per cent. Consols at 98, would have insured to 
 iiim and his heirs £280 12s. per annum of a perpetual pension. My lord, 
 it is mockery of our condition to cite a case or two, js Mr. Morley did, 
 of men who had entered as postmen leaving the Service with good j>ensions 
 as Postma.sters, thus leading the strongly imaginative to assume that this 
 is the normal wind-up of a postman's life. Whether one or twenty men 
 entering as postmen leave as Postmasters is but cold comfort to about 80 
 per cent, of postmen doomed to premature old age and death in the post- 
 men's ranks, with the inade'juate provision made for postmen in such events. 
 In Appendice A Postal and Telcgrap'.i Vote, 1895 and 1896 Estimates, we 
 find that 723 surveyors, secretaries, controllers, and clerks receive in jien- 
 sion £99,549, while 2,246 overseers, sorters, and postmen receive £70,593 ; 
 that is to sfty, a number less t'han one-third of the sorters, postmen, etc., 
 receive a sura equal to them and £28,956 over. The heads of the Depart- 
 ment allow high wages to be paid their own class, and that class is abnor- 
 mally swelled, hence the magnitude of the gross amount paid in pensions, 
 and the shudder of Ministers at the bare idea of imposing more burdens 
 on taxpayers in order to increase t'le pension of Civil servants. The list 
 by adjustment may not need an increase at all to give postmen a look in. 
 Parliament by cutting down lavish salaries and sweeping away surjdus con- 
 trolling power will confine pensions to enabling all worn-out faithful ser- 
 vants just sufficient to maintain them in comfort, a limit beyond which 
 pensions should not go. 
 
 APPLICATION OF SECTION X. SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1859. 
 
 Section X. of the Superannuation Act, 1859, provides for the produc- 
 tion of a medical certificate to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of the 
 Treasury, showing that the person is incapable from infirmity of mind or 
 body to discharge the duties of his situation, and that such infirmity ia 
 likely to be permanent ; without this the grant shall not be lawful under the 
 Act. Has this Act been complied with in the case of Mr. Johnson, Post- 
 niaster and Surveyor of Jlanchester, who was pensioned bet^veen '91 and
 
 244 .I(.HN Wai.sit, Liverpool. 
 
 '2 at £460 per annum, and appointed Poitmaster of Hastings in the lame 
 yair at a salary of £540 r 
 
 Sir F. Mowutt: That case is new to me. 
 
 Witness : Or in tlie case of Mr. Toiiihs. controller, jtensione 1 on £400 
 per annum at the same time, and within the year a|>|iointed to the I'ost- 
 mastership of BrLstol at £800 per amiiini? What of the infirmity, in these 
 cases, of mind or hody l>eing i)ermanent* There is no evidence here of 
 coming hack for the love of being of service, eUe these men wotild serve 
 at the |K'nHione<l rate. The proof is all in one <lirection ; tliat is, l>enefit of 
 self at tlie expense of the nation. The country is fiaying for these jobs 
 £860 jKT annum without a <K'mur, while worn-out postmen, their widows 
 and children, are in workhouse-s, orphanages, and other dei>endent jx^sitions. 
 Mr. WaljHjle : The country is not paying anything extra for this. 
 A. Yes ; in l)oth cases, 
 g. How? 
 
 A. If they were on their pensions other men would be employed in their 
 place. 
 
 Q. Yes ; but the salary paid would be more than the sum they are now 
 receiving'/ 
 
 A. Xo, sir ; it is exactly t!ie same amount. Tlieir places would have 
 been tilled up. I may say that ail sections in the Service look on this in 
 the same way. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I do not understand. What do you mein by losing any- 
 thing? It may be unjust, or it may be right or wrong — as to that I say 
 nothing — but wliere does the loss come in? 
 A. It is keeping another man out of the position. 
 Mr. WaljKjle : That may be so. but it is not a loss to the public. 
 A. I would like to consider that point again. My mind is too much 
 engaged to deal with it now. 
 
 (I sent on an exi)lanation, which has been entered in my evidence, to the 
 following effect: — The loss occurs by thesa men being placed on pensions 
 at all, when they were fit to serve. The salaries paid now at London, Man- 
 chester, Bristol, and Hastings are tlie same in amount as the salnrios paid 
 when these men served in London and Manchester. The amounts paiil in 
 pension-s are. therefore, a loss to the nation.) 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The case happened before I became Secretary to t^e 
 Post Office, and from my own experience I cannot tell exactly what oc- 
 curred. I believe this is it, however. Mr. Tombs broke down in a very 
 onerous office, and was not able to go on. But he was able to take a less 
 onerous post, and he received a pension, together with a salary for the less 
 onerous office, reduced in comparison with what an outsider would have been 
 appointed at. His salary and pension were not to exceed the salary of 
 his former office. It is. therefore, a slaving to the public. 
 Witness : But it keeps out another man. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Some other man would liave had to be appointed to the 
 office. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: And at the expense of the public. 
 
 Witness : Still, it is generally regarded as a not very good job. Com- 
 pare these two cases with some I have here. There is Mr. Tinmey, 7 
 vears auxiliarv. 20 years appointed, 4s. Id. a week, in Lurgan Workhouse. 
 6n8 ])oor fellow, .J." Bulger, is allowed, after 17 years' service. 4s. 8d. per 
 ■week. He is blind, and in the workhouse of Al;by : another in the same 
 place is luxuriating on 5s. 4d. per week, after 28 years' service. 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you mean by the "same place" the workhouse? 
 A. Xo. not the workliouse, but in Athy. 
 Q. How many yeais' service, did you s"iy? 
 
 A. 28 years' service for 5s. 4d. a week. At Liverpool 95 per cent, of 
 tihe widows of postmeu are wrenched from the care of their little homes 
 and children to become charwomen.
 
 Superannuation — Plea for Auxiliary Postmen. 245 
 
 PLEA FOR AUXILIARY POSTMEN BEING BROUGHT WITHIN 
 THE SCX)PE OF THE PEXSION ACT. 
 
 It must be sleer misconception of its obligations which blinds the 
 wealthiest Govermnent in the world in dealing with its children, to cause it 
 not oi.ly to neglect its parental solicitude for the weakest subjects, but 
 actually to use their helplessness to oppress them by giving unremuuerative 
 labour. I speak of the auxiliary class, probably one-third of the postmen 
 of the Unite<l Kingdom. The labour performed by this class in every in- 
 stance is identical iu importance with that performed by established post- 
 men. In Liverpool, Xewt-.istle. and tliroughout the large towns, we have 
 whole section.s of establi-hed postmen {xjrfonning duties once i)erformed 
 by an auxiliary class ; but there is need that the great protit ma<le by the 
 I'ost Office should not l>e diminished, and the late Postmaster-General has 
 informed us that the supply of labourers exceeds the demand, so that the 
 poorest, most helples.s, and least abli to provide for themselves in old 
 age, needing paternal care, offer themselves for emplo\nneut, and by a trick 
 of trade are classed auxiliaries in order to siive the revenue pensions. A 
 kind of sentinienttlity has devised compissionate allowances for young lady 
 telegi'apliLsts. children of suj)ervis()rs hi the Post Ofiice and middle class 
 j)eople, on thi-ir leaving tlie Service to marry. But there is no compassion 
 for poor old Bradley, an auxiliary at Magliull. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Where is Maghull? 
 
 Witness : Outside Liverpool. This man has served his country in hail, 
 rain, and snow for forty years. Nor is there any for hundreds like him. 
 The law, it is true, will provide a workhouse for him and his poor old 
 wife, and till tlie minds of his relation.s, unable to keep him out, with the 
 misery of the spectacle. 
 
 Mr. Smith: Has he gone there? 
 
 A. I have a letter from him, in wliich he says: — "Tlie distance I walk 
 in one day is about 20 miles, as near as I can reckon it. When I first 
 carried letters I liarl to go from 50 to 40 miles a day, viz., through Mag- 
 hull, Melling, Nt'tuerkm, Thornton, Sefton, and Lunt, and only received 
 a Id. a letier, pail on delivery. Afier I ha<l been on a, while they rose 
 ine to 9s. per week, at which I was kept for 9 or 10 years. Then they 
 gave me lis. 6d., then 13.s. 6d., then 1.5s., and about three years ago they 
 gave me 18s. I first carrieil letters in 1846."' 
 
 Q. Was he serving full time at 9s. a week, or only as an auxiliary? 
 
 A. As an auxiliary. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you seriouslv believe anv man, even in the old davs, 
 had to walk 30 or 40 miles? 
 
 A. I am giving his statement. 
 
 Q. Have you ever in your experience come across any case approacliing 
 tliat of a man walking 30 or 40 miles a day being sub^sequently raised to 
 9s. a week ? 
 
 A. I do not know that I liave. 
 
 Q. Do vou know anvtihing of a case like it? 
 
 A. No.' 
 
 Q. Do you believe that to be true? 
 
 A. I should rather not expi-ess an opinion. I am only here to give evi- 
 dence. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: I only asked what vour l>elief was? 
 
 Tlie Cliairman : It is a serious thing for a man to come here and give 
 evidence and not be responsible for that evidence. 
 
 A. I should say it is too much on the average. I should say 20 miles 
 or a little over it would ba nearer the mark. I have liad country walks my- 
 self as a substitute. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Have you ever had to walk 20 miles a dav?
 
 246 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 A. I sliould say nearly that. One round I had was five miles, and that 
 had to he walked three times a day. 
 Q. But three times live is imly fifteen? 
 A. Quite so; hut there is the" calling in and out. His letter concludes: — 
 
 "Altogetlier I have heen off ill ahout six or seven times. In my younger 
 days 1 Jiid very good health, hut tlie last few years I have not been so 
 well. 1 will he 64 years of age iii February. I am told I am not entitled 
 t.) a pension, and I really don't know what to do when I am forced to retire. 
 I lost the use of one arm wlien two years old. 1 have hail one leg broken 
 in three places, and now one leg is shorter than the other, so j'ou will see 
 ^^•hat my prospects are. I had a son a postman here, who died four years 
 ago through illness brought on by exposure to tlie weather, so I have no one 
 to help me. I have received Sunday jjay for about two years now. I must 
 now conclude. lio]>iug you will be able to do something for me, and with 
 very many thanks to you for your great kindness. — I remain, yours sin- 
 cerely, 
 
 EdMU.N'D Bll.\I)LEV." 
 
 Mr. Walpoli : Then this old gentleman was 50 years at work, and is still 
 in tolerably good health ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but he expects to go on the pirish. 
 
 Mr. Smith : That is the case of an auxiliarv? 
 
 A. Yes. " 
 
 Q. Does vour next evidence applv to auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are the people in the Irish workhouses auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Xo ; they have pensions. 
 
 Q. Do you of your own knowledge know anything about these men? 
 
 A. No ; I only receive the statements. 
 
 Q. Have you any means of telling us of any other causes for their being 
 in the workhouses — other than the lowness of their pensions? 
 
 A. No : only their poverty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In fact you don"t knoAv as much as you know from the 
 letter of Mr. Bradley? 
 
 A. Nothing more. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Not so much. 
 
 Witness (continuing) said : Much is made of the disgraceful condition 
 of the broken-down heroes of war, the sufferings and exertions of whom, 
 in some cases, were confined within a very few years ; but the misery 
 and poverty of the used up worker has not suiBcient poetry nor power 
 in it to awaken those in whose service 40 or even 50 years' faithful drud- 
 gery has been done to a sense of their duty to maintain their servants 
 in old age. This case has b3en before the present Secretary : — W. Nichol- 
 son, 30 years' service. C4ateshead ; broka his service twice, retired ill-health, 
 probably to die in workhouse. J. Cartm-right, auxiliary, Oldbury, 23^ years' 
 service, made the ordinary declaration before a magistrate when he joined 
 the Service, and was for some time undar the impression he would receive 
 pension. His not being estaljlished, he says, was due to some error on the 
 part of his then Postmaster ; about ten years ago, however, he was asked 
 to sign a paper disclaiming all right to pension when too old for work ; 
 another man at the same office was at the same time forced to sign a 
 similar paper or quit the Service in 14 days, but breaking down soon after. 
 Sir B. Hingley, late M.P., pressed the poor fellow's claim, and after several 
 refusals by Mr. Morley to lay the case before the Treasury, succeeded in 
 getting 6s. per week pension for him. I may qualify that statement, per- 
 haps. I do not know whet*her tlie refusal was by Mr. Morley to lay the 
 case before tlie Treasury, or whether it was a refusal on the part of the 
 Treasury to grant the pension.
 
 Superannuation — Special Cases. 247 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Better put it on tlie Treasnry. These things are always 
 put on the Treasury. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness : I would remind the Committee that a few cases of auxiliaries 
 receiving pensions appear in the Estimates. I quote a few cases from t.lie 
 1893 and 1894 Rowland Hill Annual Reports, whicli will make it clear that tlie 
 Department has little shame either in the matter of allowing Cliristmas 
 boxes to answer as wages, or charity as pension. 
 
 1. Late unestablished postman, London, 72 years of age^ past work ; 
 donation. 
 
 16. Late unestablished postman, Clifden, Co. Galway, aged 70, paralysed 
 (man and wife destitute) ; donation. 
 
 23. Retired rural postman, unestablishetl, Broadford, N.B., aged 80, 
 living on two daughters (domestic servants) ; donation. 
 
 142. Late rural postman, unestablished, Poole, aged 76, unfit for further 
 work ; donation. 
 
 169. Late postman, uneskiblished, Br.uling, Isle of Wight, age 67, bluul, 
 wife bedridden ; donation. 
 
 188. Late auxiliary postman, Alresford, aged 77, no pension; he com- 
 bined the occupation of postman, astronomer, lecturer, poet, and cobbler. 
 Now in receipt of parisli relief. 
 
 190. Late unestablislied ])ostman, Gravesend, aged 65, spinal disease, 
 almost blind, wife also blind. 
 
 1894. — 71. liflte rural ixjstman (unestablished). Maiden, self and aged 
 wife dependent on charity. 
 
 174. Late rural postman, Recess C. Galway, aged 66, crippled by rheu- 
 matism, wife deaf mute ; both in misery. 
 
 196. Late unestablished rural postman, Llandudno, work given up through 
 incurable disease, four children dej^endent on him. 
 
 224. Late unestablished postnun, Hackley, aged 79, unable to work ; 
 no means. 
 
 272. Late unestablished postman, Lowestoft, aged 77, not entitled to 
 pension. 
 
 283. Late auxiliary postman. Ware, aged 66, disabled by rheumatism ; 
 an applicant for jxirish relief. 
 
 Nor are many of the pensioned preserved from want, wliile the mass of 
 misery to orphans and widows can only Ik; faintly conjectured, bearing, as 
 it does, sad contrast to the mitigation by Government of like misery to 
 policemen's widows and children. 
 
 4. Retired rural postman, Holywell, aged 63, small pension, son blind, 
 Avife prostrated with ilieumatics ; relieved. 
 
 7. Rural postman, Gloucester, di-sabled by rheumatism, man and wife 
 dependent on small pension ; relieved. 
 
 26. Retired postman, London, agetl 80 ; small pension. 
 Retired postman, Liverpool (consumption), wife and two young cluldren 
 dependent on small pension ; relieved. 
 
 46. Retired postman, Glasgow, chronic invalid, four young children, 
 small pension; relieved.' 
 
 61. Retired postman, E.C., aged 83, pension 5s. per week, only son un- 
 emploved ; relieved. 
 
 66. Late parcel postman, Exeter, disabled by accident, small compassion- 
 ate allowance ; relieved. 
 
 73. Retired postman, Pembroke, aged 85, small pension ; relieved. 
 119. Retired postman, Callan, pension 5s. 4d. per week ; relieved. 
 177. Another postman, Callan, pension 4s. 7d. ; relieved.
 
 218 John Wai..sii, Liverpool. 
 
 280. Retired rural postman, Ba.sinj!;st<)ke, aged 101 ; a soldier who fought 
 in the Indian canij)aigns and WattTJoo, guarded Najxdetin at St. Helena, 
 and served 21 years in the Post Ottice ; liis iKjusion is so small that he is 
 n'l'civiiig parish relief ; reheved. 
 
 1. Rural jxistniiin, Kingston, jKjnsionel on Sn. |H;r week, wife and tliree 
 children to suj)j)ort ; relievetl. 
 
 2. I'ostniaji, Iivswich, aged 83, pension insufficient for 'his supinirt ; re- 
 lieved. 
 
 7. I'ostmnn, Kdin])Urgh, too ill to work, wife and child dej^'udent on 
 Kinall j)ensi()n ; relieved. 
 
 12. Postman, Preston, spinal disease and partial hlindness, 6s. jkt week ; 
 relieved. 
 
 28. Rural I'ostm.in, IJath, aged 73, jK'nsion £17 a year ; relieved. 
 
 24. Postman, Oldiiam, wife and three children depi'uding on a pension of 
 less than 5s. j»er \*eek. 
 
 59. Retired sUition messenger, (losport. .age.l 70, retired through injury 
 on duty, wife a lunatic, comjxissionate ailowauc3 of 5s. lid. jHir week ; 
 relieved. 
 
 63. Rur.il postman, C^iixvr Fife, paralysis, wife and self dependent an 
 Binall j)ension ; relieved. 
 
 76. Rural iK)stman, Wantage, blind wife and six children dependent on 
 nn'all peasion. 
 
 110. Postman, London, aged 64, wife ami invalid daughter to support 
 oi ."inall pension; relieved. 
 
 124. Rural postman, Carlisle, jjension £10 a year, dying of heart <lisease, 
 two children dejR'ndent on liim ; relieved. 
 
 27. Rural jHistman, lirockley, aged 82, wife 86, j)ension small, children 
 unable to help. 
 
 WIDOWS AND CHILDREN. 
 
 54. Widow of postman, E.G., four young children; relieved. 
 92. Widow of postman, Thurso, five young children to support out of Ler 
 ean.ings ;is charwoman. 
 
 97. Widow of postman. London, 73, in receipt of parish relief. 
 
 98. Widow of postman, Southampton, four young children, in receipt of 
 parish relief. 
 
 25. Widow of postman, Chatham, aged 81, bedridden and helpless, de- 
 ptMident on charity. 
 
 48. Widow of mail porter. London ; huslun 1 died of injuries sustained 
 in rescuing a woman from tire. Widow in delicate health, with a family 
 of 6ve young children. 
 
 78. Widow of rural postman, Grampoand Road, left with two children, 
 in receipt of parish relief. 
 
 119. Widow of rural postman, Southampton, with six children under 12 
 etc., etc.. ad {nfinitiim. 
 
 In the '93 report 155 cases of destitute postmen were treated, 53 per cent, 
 of the whole. In the '94 report 173, or 58 per cent. Gentlemen take more 
 care of a favourite horse when it is no longer servicealjle than is taken 
 of numbers of our broken-down postmen. Tender cliildren and poor women 
 are left neglected to starve, and the nation reaps the seed sown in weakness 
 and ignorance. 
 
 POSTMEN'S WAGES THE BASIS OF CALCULATION. 
 
 My lord. Sir F. Mowatt and yourself, when Mr. Boulden was being 
 examined, asserted that a sum equal to 12 ])er cent, of the salary list is 
 the pension charge of the Department, and you gave 12 per cent, of £120
 
 Superannuation — Comparisons. 249 
 
 •alary &a an example of cost. Let us see on whose salaries that 12 per 
 cent, is, or how mudi of this conies to postmen: — 
 
 In the 1892 and 1893 Estimates 153 Postmen were pensioned, arerage 388 serrice. 
 In the 1893 and 1894 ,. 1X6 „ „ ,, „ 27-4 „ 
 
 In the 1894 and 1895 „ 166 ,, ,. „ ,, 27- ., 
 
 In the 1895 and 1896 ., 160 „ ,, „ ., 288 „ 
 
 A mean of thoie four yeirs gires 2S'0. 
 
 In '92 & '93 the pensioned Postmasters numbered 32, with an ar. service of 41-6 year. 
 
 In '93 i "94 ., ,, „ 41, ,, 43 4 ,, 
 
 In'94&'95 „ „ ., 14, ,, S7 6 ,, 
 
 In'95A'96 ,, „ „ 19, „ 36 3 ,, 
 
 A mean for the 4 yoars gives ... ... 39-7 ,, 
 
 This shows a difforenco of 11-9 years in the capability of Postmastars to serve 
 longf^r than Poatmon. 
 
 In 1892 and 1893 the pensioned Postmasters wore 34 per cent, of those serving 
 In 189! and 1894 ., ., „ 4-7 
 
 In 1894 and 1895 ., „ „ 15 
 
 In 1''95 and 1896 „ ,, „ 2 1 ,, ,, „ 
 
 A mean again for 4 years gives 2-9 per cent. 
 
 The poiistoned Postmen in 1892 and 1893 were 0.7 par cent, of thote serving. 
 189.J and 1891 ,, 07 
 „ „ 1894 and 189.') „ 07 
 
 „ „ 1890 and 1896 ,, 07 
 
 2-8 
 A mean for four years jjives Of to llie hundreds of postmen 
 serving. 
 
 This shows tliat four times the uumher of Po.shiiasU;rs are iX'n.sioneil in 
 pro{M)rtion to the number of Postmasters serving tiian jmstmen in j)r()- 
 portion to the number of postmen serving. I have already shown that the 
 pensi()ne<l postmen die the first year of jjcnsion in the proportion of 4 to 1 
 of the Postmasters, so we shall pre.sently <liscem the phantom jx.'nsion is to 
 the great body of postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have yo'i taken the asUiblished Postmasters at the head 
 offices and include<l the sidi-postmastersy 
 
 A. No ; 1 have not inclutled tlie sub-postmasters. 
 
 Q. In tiiking the postmen have you included the auxiliary {Kistmen? 
 
 A. No, sir, I have not. To continue — suppose £500 to represent tlie.se 
 pensioiLS jwr hundred of each for one ye;ir ; the Postmaster's share would l)e 
 ^Sxjv.^' 'i'"l 'I'e l)o.stmar8 V,-5X|,ft; that is. £-12(! Hs. for th.- PoHtinasters. 
 and £72 17s. per i)en.sionel fraction to the hundred postmen. Remember 
 this takes no account whatever of whit each is entitleil to by reason of 
 large or small silaries. It simply sliows that the work and condition of 
 seivice can l)e relied on to kill your postmen off, so that it is only possible 
 for them to servi in the above porportion to Postmasters, just as it i.s 
 calculated with certainty that a tram-hor.se is used up in four years, while 
 it takes twenty to use up a carriage-horse, or that insurance comjxinies 
 receive thousands from the poor, who can be calculated on to lapse i)ay- 
 nients and forfeit benetit, so may jjostmen open their eyes to the fact that, 
 under present conditions, but {j^ ])er cent, of th«»ir numlicr will ever receive a pen- 
 sion ; and that, if i)ension is a deduction from jxiy by a })ercentage similar 
 to all grades, their deductions are going to the most highly-paid officials 
 in the Service. Should pensions be increased by stoppages in future, the 
 same holds good ; postmen's interests will be safer in being separately 
 treated, especially as to funds. Now, my lord, instead of 12 per cent, of
 
 250 John Walsh. Liverpool. 
 
 tlieir wages, I find tin-, jHJiisions of Postmasters, in tlie Suiimiary Appendix 
 A Estijiiates, 1892 and 1893, to l>e 14.3 j>er cent, of the wages of the Post- 
 masters of tlie United Kingdom. In "93 and '94, 18.7 jK-r cent. In '94 
 and '95, 18.3 per cent. ; and in "95 and '96, 18.8 jter cent. I find the pen- 
 sioned j)ostmen, sorters, messengers, ove^^l^ers, etc., in '92 and '93 to re- 
 ceive an amount equal to 4.1 |>er cent, of tlie wages of these classes; in '94 
 and '95, 3.8 jKjr cent. ; and in '95 and '96 3.7 per cent. 1 liave not in- 
 cluded the amount of Postmasters' pensions in Appendi.x B against the 
 wages of fclie Postmasters, though I have included the amount of j)ension in 
 Ai)i>endix B {wid to overseers, sorters, postmen, etc., against the wages of 
 these classes. 
 
 The Chairman: Does that not arise to a considerable extent from the fact 
 that these classes are mostly made up of young men? There has been a 
 great extension of uum1>ers among the postmen and sorters, and the conse- 
 quence is that the average age of that particular class is a low one. 
 
 A. Yes ; but I will give other comparisons in order to show tiiat my 
 remarks are quite apj)liaible. 
 
 The Chairman: But you admit it? 
 
 A. Yes, to a certain extent. 
 
 (.). And, taking the average of the i)o.«ttmen's class, it is a low age? 
 
 A. Yes. It is a monetary consideration, however, and I am reca])itulating 
 this mostly in view of deductions l)eing made from pay. 
 
 Mr. Smith : The Postmasters, many of them, hive served in these lower 
 places ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I atlmit that. 
 
 Q. And that being so, they get the pensions which sorters and telegraph- 
 ists got? Their j)eiision fund is part of the sorters' pension fund? 
 
 A. I am showing how it is we are disadvantaged from a monetary jjoint 
 of view. In arriving at the gross annual wages of postmen, I have taken 
 a mean of the provincial postmen's wages, and the actual wages paid to 
 postmen, overseers, sorters, and tracers in London, Edinburgh, and Dublin. 
 I liave not included any man's wages who is not established. I have not 
 included the wages of inspectors, sorting clerks, paper sorters, and 
 labourers ; although I am of opinion some or all of these are included in 
 the etcetera after overseers, sorters, and letter-carriers, otherwise they do 
 not appear ; clerk and C. I take to mean the major establishment. I can 
 qualify that on account of the Secretary doing away with the major estab- 
 lishment, or at any rate giving it a final damper. I have not included 
 allowances to mail messengers, sorters, sorting postmen, stampers, etc. I 
 liave not included boot money outside of the three cities mentioned, yet 
 the pension only averages 3.8 per cent. Instead, then, of having to pay 
 £14 8s. on £120, it would only require £4 lis. to secure the present 
 pension. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: The explanation is that the numl>er ha.s greatly increased. 
 The pensions are pensions for the smaller number, and the salaries salaries 
 for the larger numbers. 
 
 Mr. Smith : And the only pensions taken in are the pensions of postmen, 
 and not of those who have gone up into the higher grades. 
 
 Witness: The postmen, etc.. get 8.2 per cent, less than your average 
 amount, and the Postmasters 5.2 per cent, above it. My own impression is 
 that 2^ per cent, on postmen's present wages is more than sufficient to pay 
 the whole of the postmen pensioners. 
 
 a)ST OF PEXSIOXIXG POSTMEX AT THEIR PRESEXT RATE. 
 
 For four years the average has been -^^^ pensioned to tie hundr d post- 
 men, with an average service of 28 years, and a pension of £32 5s. 2id. 
 per man. Take now 100 postmen, and allow 30 years to extinguish them 
 from the Service — 1^5 of a man for 40 years gives 23 men, which at
 
 Superannuation — Esllmaled Cost* '2o{ 
 
 £32 5s. 2i(J. amounts to £903 4s. 8d. Suppose the pensioned to average 
 seven years on pension (which I do not believe they do), a sum of £6,322 
 123. Sd. would be required, which could he raised by tiie hundred men, at 
 an average deduction of Is. 2|d. per week, paid during 20 years" service. 
 This is on the building societies' plan. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But you are assuming that they will only remain seven 
 years on a pension? 
 
 A. Bv the nunib:T of deaths in the first pensioned years you can pretty 
 well gauge what the po.stmen"s pension.s arc worth. 
 
 Mr. Walpcle : You are assuming, first of all, that a man is pensioned 
 after 28 y«u-s' service? 
 
 A. Yes ; on the average. 
 
 Q. And his age would then be only 48, and consequently you are as- 
 suming that the average life of a man at 48 is only seven years? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It is opposed to all experience. 
 
 A. You must take it that they are played-out men at 48. They are not 
 iiealtliy. 
 
 Mr. Smith : 5.7 per cent, died in tiic iiryi year? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. That is about l-16tli? 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : When men retire from sickness the great number of 
 deaths occur in the first year, but it would reduce the percentage in subse- 
 quent years. 
 
 A. The number I liave given in this estimate is one-fourth too much, 
 and I have done so in order to cover any contingency of that kind. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I listened to your figures. 
 
 Witness : To change our rate of j)ension from sixtieths to forty-fifths 
 would incrciise the pension charge by one-third of itself, and to contine this 
 operation to postmen alone would, as the above illustration shows, ent^iil 
 but a very small cost; while the reduction in service to 30 years would 
 not at the out.side iuMug the yearly average (rt'cr 1 jier cent., or an increase 
 of ,;, percent. This latter would be in the Department's favour, as it would 
 get rid of tottering, feoblc men at the maximum, and employ yt)Ung men of 
 vigour at the minimum in their sleid. Take the 3.8 per cent., 1 find by 
 the Estimates it cost to pension postmen, etc., 1.3 per cent., or about 3d. 
 l)er week from a man receiving 20s. wages would provide for us the in- 
 crcjise we ask. It will occur to the Committee that postmen, through their 
 combination, can do this for themselves. We hold it is the duty of the 
 (rovernment, as employer, to provide for the worker in disablement and 
 (dd age. and every function our cond)inatiou performs of the Government"? 
 duty weakens the power and authority the Government should have. My 
 lord, I ask you to imigine tiie misery entailed on the families of those men 
 jiensioned in a dying condition, as shown ))y 6 per cent, of deaths in the 
 first year. I am a little over the estimate here. An addition of one-third 
 of their meagre pension added would do much to provide dying men with 
 comfort, and this state is common to most pensioned prematurely. What 
 we ask is not privilege or luxury, but bare necessity. In the name of tlie 
 uidows and orjjhans of pf«tmen I also appeal. I find by the Registrar- 
 Generals returns that the married males are 33.1 per cent, of the male 
 population. Taking marriage:ible males from 20 to 95 I find the married 
 ones are 70 per cent, of these. Suppose postmen married to \^e 70 
 per cent, of postmen, I find the males to <lisap{)ear between the 
 same ages at the rate of 1| per cent., but some of these will be infirm, 
 and some emigrants, therefore we will place the rate at 1 per cent, for post- 
 men, including tlieir pensioners. We are asking for 10s. per week for the 
 widow, if she have been two years married to the postman before his 
 death, or if in the case of a deceased pensioned j)ostman, she shall have
 
 252 John Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 been married to liim bef(»re lie left the Service. Our reason for naming 
 two years is, tiiat tlie husband cannot out of liis wages leave his wife any- 
 thing to maintain lier. She is less eligible for marriage, and in most in- 
 stances will have a chihl to maintain. We only ask tliis provision during 
 widowhood. We ask for 3s. a week for cliildren imtil tliey reach 15 years 
 of age, as less would not support children in large towns, if they have 
 to be placed out in resjK'ctiiblc families. Suppose this to average 13s. per 
 week i)er widow, the yearly money l^eiiig about tlie same as the po.stman's 
 average i)ension ; we migiit put it thus — if it tiikes 3.8 \)er cent. U) pension 
 p(»stmen, what would it take to j)ensii)n 70 per cent., implying widows and 
 children, and I get answer 2.24 per cent. 
 
 HOW OUR PROPOSAL (HXMPAKIOS WITH THI-: TREATMENT OF 
 POLICE, AND FALLS SHORT OF THE SAME. 
 
 I beg the Committee to keep in mind the favourable terms granted by 
 Government t'O the police, and compire with their system our request. 
 We do not ask about two-tliirds at 26 nor at 28 yeitrs' service — terms granted 
 to the English and Irish police — but at 30 ye,irs' service. W^e ask terms a 
 little more favourable as regards our widows and children, but the difference 
 l)etween 26 and 30 years' service would more than cover this. We do not 
 l)elieve in placing men with any amonnt of unused energy in them on 
 pension that they may compete in on overstocke<l labour market with other 
 workers, and hence iiave not askeii for jjcnsion at 21 yeiirs, as in the army 
 and navy, nor at 25, as in the police : but after 30 yecirs of work infinitely 
 more exacting than eitlier. We would be willing that the law should pre- 
 vent j)ensioners with two-tliinls jxiy for 30 years" service receiving other 
 wages from other employment, provided high and low are subjected to the 
 same re-strictions, and that breacli of the Act shouM subject the pensioner to 
 return to the work of his calling for a j)eriod to be stated at no wages 
 Imt his j)ension. We think j.)ensi(ms siiould not be forfeited except for 
 treason (dividends and other incomes are not), but simply sus|)ended or for- 
 feited to Goverjiment during tlie j)erio(l a ])ensioner might lie imprisoned, 
 in order that men ])r<ine t-o eni'ich themselves lieyond their needs by trading 
 might not have in>ecurity of income as an excuse. 
 
 UNESTABLISHED OR AUXILL4RY POSTMEN. ALSO TELEGRAPH 
 BOYS' SERVICI': BEFORE APPOINTMENT AS POSTMEN OR 
 SORTERS. 
 
 I ask that the poor auxiliaries be placed on the pension list, in order to 
 prevent the sad spectacle of tihese poor men working while body and soul 
 cling together, eager rather to die at work than in the workhouse. If 
 they liave not served full time, pay them at least for the time thev serve, 
 made up into eight hour days, etc. I ask on Ijehalf of j>ostmen w*lio have 
 been telegraph boys that their telegraph service counts towards pension. 
 Boys' service in the army and navy counts towards pension. But in the 
 event of our scheme l>eing recommended, and Incoming law, fifty years ought 
 to be the age of retirement for these. 
 
 CHRISTMAS BOXES. 
 
 I also ask that the value set on Christmas boxes, viz., 5s. a week, be 
 included in the postmen's wages as a Imsis for pension. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is that your estimate — ^5s. a week? 
 
 A. Yes ; I concur in it. 
 
 Q. And you think we should be justified adding it? 
 
 A. Yes. Stampers and indoor men generally are pensioned on the allow- 
 ance received in lieu of Christmas boxes. The Dei)artment permits the 
 public to pay part of the postmen's wages direct to th» postmen, and be-
 
 Superannuation — Summing Up. 253 
 
 cause of this irregular methoJ reduces the postmen's pension. Tlie young 
 ladies in the Service have compassionate allowances or dowries to marry 
 when leaving the Service of their own accord, amounting to £70 and £80 
 a case. They have not families to support, therefore their incomes are not 
 distributed to support as many individuals as men's salaries. They have 
 not to collect part of their incomes from the public at ChristmaR, hence 
 though they only average 20.8 years' service — in the '95 and '96 Estimates 
 that is one-fourth less service than the po.stmen — their average pension is 
 £39 Is. ll|d., or £6 16s. 9l<\. per lady more than postmen, who are for 
 the most part fathers of families. Of course this claim falls to the ground 
 in the event of a just equivalent being granted in lieu of Christmas l)oxes. 
 
 SUMMING UP. 
 
 My lord, in conclusion, I may say that postmen throughout the length 
 and breadth of the land look to tliis Comnussion with a sanguine hojie of 
 amelioration on this question, and should we, as workers, continue to l>e 
 dei'ied the treatment meted out to the iM)lie'. so vital is this (juestion, that 
 I believe the men would submit to a small deduction from their salaries 
 rather tlian that the pension .should continue the rnreality it is to the 
 great body of postmen. One word more, and then I will finish. I have 
 stated that 95 per cent, of the widows of po.stmen are charwomen. I may 
 siy that the Post OflRce, particularly in Liverpool, and I believe in other 
 places, has been good enough to accept the wives of postmen as charwomen. 
 I uak. as the husbands of these have hud nothing given to them in lieu of their 
 services, that these women may also be tiiken on to the i)ension and treated 
 in the .same way a.s other pensioners, that is, after ten years' service to be 
 pensionable. This would apply to only a very few. I thank you very nuich 
 for your kind attention. I have had a very heavy c;ise to put before you, 
 and I am sure you have stood it well. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Committee then adjourned till >ronday.
 
 STEPHEN DOWLIXG, Liverpool. 
 
 Houus OK iJi r\ — Hoi.iDAV AM> Camai, Lkave. 
 
 Wkstminstkk, Fe»>. 10, 18%. 
 
 Tlic Di'partimiit-.il Coiniiiit toe, presided over by Lord Tweedmoutli. whicli 
 is ini(uiriii^ into tiie grievancx-s of the Post OfBee serviints. resumed it/s 
 sittings in the House of Lords' Committee Room on Monday. February 10th. 
 
 Tiie first witness called was Steplien D(jwling. wlio was examined as 
 follows : — 
 
 The ("hairman : You are a Liverpt)ol j^istnian. I believe? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. What is your length of service? 
 
 A. I joined a.s an auxiliary in April. 1877. 
 
 y. And then? 
 
 A. I was aj)point^d in iSeptemlx;r as a regular man. 
 
 Q. In the same year? 
 
 A. Yes : and now I receive 31s. a week, which is the maximum pay of a 
 postman at ]..iverpool. 
 
 Q. Have you any strijies l>esides? 
 
 A. Xo. The 31s. includes an adtlitional one shilling allowance. 
 
 Q. What is the particular point to which you wish to c;ill our attention? 
 
 A. The particular point is the hours of duty. I shall also deal with kin- 
 dred (pie.stions, such as iiolidays an<l leave. 
 
 (). Have you prejvued any statement? 
 
 A. I have, my lord. 
 
 Tiie Ohairman : Proceed with it, plea.se. 
 
 Witness : I approach this ijuestion of postmen's hours of work with a 
 feeling akin to amazement that such a state of things a.s I am now about 
 to disclose should t>e [>ermitted to exist in the present advanced stage of 
 deveIo])ment of so va.st a revenue-producing Department of the State as the 
 Post Office. Tlie health, the leisure for recreation — for the intellectual ad- 
 vancement and home duties of the toiling masses ai'e questions that are now 
 almost engrossing the attention of economists, legislators, and, in fact, the 
 public generally. But in stiting this cape for the postmen I regret to have 
 to say it is my opinion — and that opinion is shared by the whole of my 
 class — that these most vital questions cannot have received from the De- 
 partment, or the Treasury, or both of these, the consideration, the attention 
 they demand, else the present condition of postmen's hours of labour would 
 never have been allowed to survive whilst there remaine<l a single penny 
 surplus profit derived from the sy.stem to be poured into the State coffers. 
 Our grievance in its general aspect comes under the head of 
 
 SPLIT DUTIES. 
 
 From the very nature of our work, the fact that we are public servants 
 in the employ of a great Department, the work of which is in some stage
 
 Hours of Duty — Holiday anl Casual Leave. 255 
 
 of progression during the whole 24 liours of each day, we cannot ever expect 
 to obtain such desiraljle liours as, for example, the bank clerk. But, on the 
 other hand, neither is it neces.-;ary tliat our hours should be oj>pressive, 
 and spread over too long a period of the day ; that, in fact, we should be 
 comjxirable rather with the unfortunite 'bus conductor than with any other 
 class of employees in the Dep.irtment. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you put it forward as your case that you should have 
 no s])lit duties at all, or would you consider them almost inseparable from 
 a postman's duty? Do you think it is necessary that there should be a 
 certiiin nund)er of split duties ? 
 
 A. I admit it is necessary there should be some, and you will see as I 
 develop my case that that will come out. Indeed, I do not know a single 
 fhstance where that victim of dividend-making concerns has his time and 
 labour exploited to the extent of 16 and 17 hours per day. But this is the 
 fact in the case of postmen, where there is no competition and no genuine 
 public V)enetit to be gained from such a state of things. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you going to give concrete ex;unples? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. For example, a man makes four attentlances in the interval 
 of 16^ hours, as at Devonport, or within 16 hours, as at Bristol. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Have you the Devonjiort case wit'h you? 
 
 A, Yes ; I have an exact statement of the duty. 
 
 The Chairman : State it, piea.se. 
 
 A. The first attendance is from 6 a.m. to 9 a.m., 3 Lours ; the second 
 attendance fn>m 11.15 a.m. to 1.45 p.m., 2^ hours; the third attendance 
 from 6.45 till 7.45 p.m.. 1 hour; and the fourth attendance from 8.15 p.m. 
 till 10.15 i>.m., two hours, giving a total attendance of 8 hours 30 minut^-s. 
 
 The Chairman: S|)read over what time? 
 
 A. Sj'reiid over 16i liours. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Can you tell me at wliat <listance from the oflic<? the man 
 doing this duty lives? 
 
 A. I cannot say exactly as to Devonport. but I know that in many cases, 
 even if they do not live a long way from tiic office, our men are t;iken long 
 db'tinces to the finishing {Kjints, and they would have a long way to walk 
 back to the office. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It is a fact, is it not, that it is some time since there 
 was a revision of these duties at Devonport? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact, do vou liappen to know, that at this present moment 
 these ixarticular duties at t)evonport are being revised? 
 
 A. 1 did not know that they were being revised ; if anytliing had hap- 
 pened that was of imjwrtance I think I should have l>een informed. I 
 do not think that any revision has been effected yet. 
 
 y. No revision has been effected ; but is it not' a fact that they are under 
 revision ? 
 
 A. I do not know that. 
 
 Q. I presume you know from your own experience that tlie duties always 
 look worst immediately before they are put under revision ; that they must 
 be the heaviest under the maximum? 
 
 A. I presume that is .so ; but I think that, generally si)eaking, unless 
 pressure is brought to bear upon the Department in a powerful form the 
 reviaion would not come about. 
 
 Q. Will you accept my statement that, l>efore this was mentioned at all, 
 the revision in this case was actually under consideration? 
 
 A I will accept your statement, certainly. I now come to cases of five 
 attendances in the interval of 15 hours 5 mins., as at Cambridge; or within 
 10 iirs., as at Birmingham. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Have you the attendances in the Cambridge case?
 
 256 Stei'Iien Dowi.incj, Liverpool. 
 
 A. No, sir ; but I have a similar one of five attenrlances witliin 15 hours 
 from liiriniiij^'liJiiii, wliich workn out as follows: — First attemlitnce, 5.15 
 a.m. till 8.15 a.m., 3 hours; second attendance. 9.25 a.m. till 10.50 a.m., 
 1 hour and 5 mins. ; third attt-nditnce. 11.30 a.m. till 1.50 p.m., 2 hours; 
 fourth att<?ndance, 5 to 5.45 p.m.. 45 minutes; and fifth attendance. 6.50 
 p.m. till 8.15 p.m., 1 hour aud 45 minutes; total attendance, 8 hours and 
 55 minutes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suj)iK)He you are aware that in the case of Birmingham — 
 perhaps you have seen a rei)ort, however — <in inquiry was made into the 
 pi'stmen's duties some yesvrs ago, an<i that the st-itement is that the men's 
 attendance could l>e kept within 12 hours only hy relieving men from part 
 of the early morning deliver}-, and that to this the men themselves objected, 
 theiefore these attendances at Birmingham were kept on to this extent 
 purely at the dt«ire of the men themselves. Will you accept that statement 
 from me? 
 
 A. I do, sir. 
 
 Q. And, therefore, I presume that prolxibly has something to do with 
 the state of affairs at Birmingham? 
 
 A. Yes ; but if some way couhl have l>ecn shown bv which thefle men 
 could have iK'en relieved at nig'lit, I am sure they would have agree<l to have 
 their duty compressed within 12 hours. Next I come to c-i.ses of six atten- 
 dances in the interval of 14 lirs. 55 mini., a.s at Abenleen (Woodside S.O. ) ; 
 or within 14 hrs. 45 mins.. as at Louth. I have here the six attendances at 
 Louth, and tliev are as follows: — 1st, 6 a.m. till 8.30 a.m.. two hours an<l 
 a half; 2nd, 9.55 a.m. till 10.20 a.m., 45 minutes; 5rd, 10.50 a.m. till 
 12.45 p.m.. 2i hours; 4th, 2 p.m. till 3.15 p.m.. 1^ hours; 5th, 4.45 p.m. 
 till 5.55 p.m.. 1 hour 10 minutes; 6th, 7 till 7.40 p.m., 40 minutes; total, 
 8 hours and 55 minutes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose you have no personal acquaintance with Louth, 
 have you? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It is a small town, is it not? 
 
 A. It is, sir. 
 
 Q. The men very prob.ibly live very close to their work? 
 
 A. Yes. sir ; probably not far away. But still they may l>e taken a 
 long way from their work to their finishing point, and in the ca.se of the 
 attendance from 9.35 till 10.20 it would not afford much time to get back 
 in order to put in the ne.xt attendance. You will see, sir, that there is an 
 interval of 10 minutes only between this attendance and the next at 
 10.30 a.m.. which can hardly l)e counted as an interval at all, but is 
 counted, so to make it apj^ear a shorter day. 
 
 Mr. Smith: You mean it is not counted in the hours of attendance? 
 
 A. It is not counted in the hours of attendance, an<l they check off all 
 short intervals, consequently reducing the men's actual liours of work. If 
 they were counted as continuous duty the men would have no complaint ^n 
 make. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Probibly a short duty of that kind is a station service, 
 is it not? 
 
 A. I am not aware that it is a station dut}'. I understand that these 
 men are doing ordinary duty. You see. if they were not checked off for 
 these short intervals, the total of the day's work would come to consider- 
 ably more than it ought to do. It is already over the 8 hours a day, 
 
 Mr. Smith: And, of course, that is a grievance in this particular case? 
 
 A. They have not stated it as a grievance, but I presume it is a grievance 
 everywhere where they are checked off for such short intervals. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In regard to Birmingham, I s'hould like to read another 
 paragraph from the Report to which I have already alluded. It is to the
 
 -1-5 
 
 
 ;m 
 
 T3 
 
 ^^ 
 "•♦3 
 
 '^ s 
 
 f^ 
 
 -'3 « 
 
 l-H CO 2 
 
 
 -ij «
 
 Hours of Duty — Late Attendances. 257 
 
 efiFect that attendance can only be kept within 12 hours by employing a 
 sufficient number of auxiliaries on morning duty, and the postmen object 
 to being taken off the morning delivery Ijecause of the loss of Christmas 
 boxe^. There is no alternitive therefore to spreading the duty over 15 
 hours. 
 
 A. A case of that kind was met at Liverpool by the older telegrapiji boys 
 acting as auxiliary postmen from 6.15 at night to do tin last delivery. We 
 had precisely the same difficulty to contend with in Liverpool, and it was 
 met. although all the <luties in Liverpool are not yet compressed within 
 12 hours. Then there is the case of eight attendances in the interval of 
 14 hrs. 25 mins., as at Rawtenstall. 
 
 Q. Part of these attendances are on station duty, are they not? Have you 
 got them? 
 
 A. I have not the exact table. 
 
 Q. Where is it that this occurs? 
 
 A. At Rawtenstall. I have corresponded, and found it to be absolutely 
 correct, although thev have not seit me the exact statement. 
 
 Mr. Smith : There is no objection, then, on the part of the Liverpool 
 postmen to the older telegraph boys taking ])art in tlie last delivery? I 
 understood from a previous witness that some complaint was sometimes made 
 that the older telegrajjli lads were used for auxiliary postmen's duties? 
 
 A. I think I heard whit Mr. Walsh said about that, but he was referring 
 chiefly to the fact that they liad their wages reduced when they were made 
 postmen. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I think it was Mr. Churchfield that made the observation 
 to which I allude, bat it does not matter. I suppose I may take it that 
 in this particular case tliere was no objection raisetl of that kind? 
 
 A. No objection was raised at tiie time, but an objection has l>een raised 
 since that the postmen should be partially employed as telegraph boys. 
 
 Q. Then it did not meet with entire approval? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. But I understood you to recommend it? 
 
 A. No, sir; I did not propose it in any tangible form. I .said it was 
 met in that way at Liverpool. 
 
 y\r. Smitli : You do not absolutely suggest it, tlien? 
 
 A. No, sir. It cannot be said with any .s-iliow of reason, although the 
 actual time of work in these cases may amount to a total of from 8 to 9 
 hrjurs only, that the man performing such duty has an 8 hours' day ; 
 that he has even proper time for food and rest, not to mention those other 
 objects which go to render liLs life endurable. How much actual work 
 nuist these 3, 4, 5, and 6, leaving out of the question 8, attendances entail 
 besides what can be .s^hown on time sheets? These men cannot reside on the 
 premises of their offices : and if they could many long walks would be 
 necessary to reach collecting })oints, to attend station dutie.s, and U) return 
 from finishing points. The lives of such men are those of dogs, stealing a 
 nap l>etween duties, witli one eye closed and the other on the clock. 
 
 EFFECT OF THESE TOO NUMEROUS ATTENDANCES ON 
 TIME-KEEPING. 
 
 The ill effect of tliese too numerous attendances will l)e readily under- 
 stood from the fact that postmen have tlie worst lato. rate in the Service. 
 
 The Chairman: What do you mean by late rate? 
 
 \y'itness : Tlie number of late attendances. There is no difficulty ex- 
 peiienced in tracing the cause to this, as will l)e seen by placing the number 
 of attendances required from postmen oj>posite that required from, for 
 instance, sorting clerks. 
 I
 
 258 Stkimikn Donvi.in*;, Liverpool. 
 
 TA15LK OF AT'raNDANCES. 
 
 I 
 
 
 
 r 
 
 08TMKN. 
 
 
 l?oRTiKG Clkbks (Liverpool) 
 
 ler D 
 
 iiy 
 
 
 I'cr 
 
 r Sundays i 
 'Annum. 
 'J39 
 
 excluded. ) 
 Per Day. Per Annum. 
 
 1 and 
 
 2 y>'M 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 
 IL'.Vi 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 
 15(!5 
 
 or 17 weeks' split duty, with 
 
 « 
 
 
 
 
 1878 
 
 2 attendances, out of 04 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 
 2191 
 
 weeks. 
 
 8 2.->08 
 
 1 niontli at 8 J hours per day, lx?lween 4.10 a ni. and 8. ."iO p.m. 
 
 2 months ,. 8 ,, ,, ,. fiO ,, ,, ,, ,, 
 
 3 „ ., :• ,. ,, ., fl.lO „ „ „ 
 
 I admit tliat sorting clerks in the smaller towns put in more attendances 
 than I liave given in the foregoing table, but still it is nothing like the 
 nuniL>er of attendances we have to put in. Notwithstanding the. enormous 
 disparity in these figures, there is no corresponding latitude in point of 
 discipline ; for whilst the number of lates in the case of the sorting clerk 
 may reach 15 or 20 times per annum, that of postmen must not exceed the 
 latter without incurring the arrestation of increments — 12 times is the limit 
 for stripes — despite his exceptional hours of attendance, such as 4.10 a.m.. 
 4.45 a.m., 5 a.m.. and late nights. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you say that 12 is the limit for stripes? Is that the 
 rule at Liverpool? 
 
 A. Yes, at Liverpool ; I believe it is something less at other towns. I 
 have given the outside figure. Twelve late attendances in a year debar a 
 man from stripes, and, out of such a number as 1.252 attendances which 
 are necessary in the case of a man having to put in four attendances a day, 
 the 12 late attendances give a very narrow margin. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: But is not the official rule quite different from that? Is 
 not the rule to the effect that the question of withholding stripes shall be 
 enforced if a postman has been late 16 times during the year, or 20 times 
 in the case of att^endances between midnight and 6 a.m., and that the cir- 
 cumstances shall be taken into accouHt in coming to a decision? Is it not 
 the case that the question is not raised at all unless the officer has been late 
 16 times on day or 20 times on night attendances? 
 
 A. Against that I have to oppose the facts that in Liverpool men who 
 have had nothing else against them, and who have had their stripes with- 
 held, have been told that 12 times is the limit for stripes. In many towns 
 men have had their stripes withheld for having been eight times late in 
 the course of a year. 
 
 Tlie Chairman: Xot on that account only, surely? 
 
 A. 36 times in three years is what we are told is the limit in Liverpool, 
 and if a ma.i gets over that limit he immediately becomes ineligible for 
 stripes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But the rule I am quoting is in existence, and it is really 
 in force?
 
 Hours of Duty — Numerous. Attendances. ^59 
 
 A. Wc have frequently urged that the limit should be 16, and when 
 the stripes were tirst granted that was the limit, but the practice has been 
 in Liverpool to arrest a man's stripes if he has been late 12 times. 
 
 The Chairman : AY'hat constitutes a late attendance ? 
 
 A. A few minutes. 
 
 Q. How manj' minutes? 
 
 A. 2^ minutes, but in some places even a late attendunce of one minute 
 is entered ; in other places, however, as much as 2j minutes is made the 
 limit. All this, we urge, points to a lack of consideration, and causes 
 many a postman to have a bid record and be branded as w man of bad con- 
 duct, who, if he had the duties of the sorting clerk, would have no such re- 
 cord, suffer no such stigma. I have here a case in Cork, where a man 
 stiirts dutv at 1.20 a.m., and has three attendances, and is not finished 
 till 10.20 the next night. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You nmst take that in another way. 
 
 Witness : If you take it another way t'ae duty is over 14 hours, but we 
 are not in the habit of counting night duty from mid-day. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I should like to see these attendances. 
 
 Witness : I will let you have them, sir. When a man has only one, or, 
 cccasiouMJly, two attendances to make each day, lie cm brace himself up 
 for puiictaaUty ; but when his duties are spread out over the whole day — 
 and sometimes part of the night — his energies naturally fi:ig. 
 
 NUMEROUS ATTENDANCES AND BAD WEATHER. 
 
 Then tlier3 is the question of bad weather to be taken into consideration 
 in cornection with these numerous attendances. When Dr. Wilson, giving 
 eviderce boi'ore this Committee, animadverted on split duty and its ill effects, 
 he must have had in his mind our nnlimited attendances, which are without 
 equal in the Service. Imagine, my lord, tlic postman going into his home 
 3, 4, 5, and as many as 8 times per day, drencho 1 with rain, or his boots 
 I)enetrated with snow. Setting aside the iianlsliips endured tlirough ex- 
 ]H>sure and its consecpuMices to lieaitli, as shown by J)r. Wilson's statv- 
 Hient tliat tlie tieatii rate amuiigst the [lustmeiis class was tite liiglu-st in th*' 
 Service, 1 a.-ik you to consider how much comfort there can be in a small 
 dwelling wliere an attempt has to be n^ade to dry clothing so mar.y times 
 a day. 1 know in my own case the very ap})earance of had weather is 
 dreaded. Or, worse still, picture him when he cannot get home remaining 
 in wet clothing all day long. And this region has its share of humidity. 
 Yet in spite of working early and late under these conditions in one day, 
 the postman has to rise early on the next, gather together all liis i)arts, and 
 prepare for a fresh attack, ijerhajjs under similar circumstances. And this, 
 year in, year out. Or, think of him working under the fierce rays of a 
 summer's sun, in the hottast part of the day, when others are seeking 
 slieller, walking along dusty, country roads, in the streets, in loathsome 
 slums, among insanitary dwellings, climbing hills, and mounting stuffy 
 buildings — with heavy loads and hung all round with parcels. All these 
 things we submit for your consideration, in the hope that you will urge 
 them as potent reasons for a sweeping reform of our duties. They point 
 to the urgent necessity of concenti-ating day's work wlithin narrower 
 limits, so as to afford- us proper time for rest between the completion of 
 one day's work and the resumption of that of the next. We ask you to 
 recommend that no duty s'hall extend beyond the limits of 12 hours and two 
 attendances ; that no period of duty which necessitates an attendance shall 
 be reckoned as less than one hour. 
 
 The Chairman : Will you state how that can be effected ? 
 
 A. I have a proposal to make later on. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You do not mean to say that tlie attendance should be 
 brought within eii'ht hours?
 
 2G0 Stki'ukn Dowi.iNi., Livcrjxxjl 
 
 A. I suggest that tlie duty should lie completed within eight hours. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that tlie actual atteudance ol eight hours sliould l>e 
 spread over a longer period ? 
 
 A. I mean that we should laily hava one attendance, if possible. 
 
 Q. Hut yoj know that wit i the gr.;at mass of postmen that is utterly 
 iiiij)raftic<il)!e? 
 
 A. 1 hive admitted that for a greit number it may Ik; impossible, but then 
 we ask tli" C/'ommittee to recommend that no duty shall extend beyond the 
 linnt of 12 'lours' attemlance. I have not asked that our duty V>e worked 
 as an eight liouv:-!* duty in every case. 
 
 Mr. Walp lie : Are there rot a great niLuy cases in which the men object 
 to bringing their duty within 12 ht>urs? 
 
 A. I intend to de<il witli th.it later on. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the Dei)irtment should bring it within 12 hours 
 against tho strong lemonstrances and desire of the men? 
 
 A. There is an argument against that. Frequently when thei« have been 
 attempts to bring the duties within the limits of 12 hours, there have equally 
 been attempts to crush the old number of attendances into the narrowed 
 lin)its, and that ha-s always made the duty worse than before. If you liave 
 the attendance's, as I suggest, within 12 liour:-;, and lessen them instead of 
 crushing the same number within that period, then I am sure our men would 
 uiarimously agr^e all over the country to biing in the day's work within 
 12 hours. By this, howtver, we do not imply that all our duties sliould be 
 spread over 12 hours ; on the contrary, mc ask that we maj' have duties 
 which can be proj)erly termed eight hours' duties — worked in the limits of 
 eight hours ; to l)e placed in fact, on an equality with sorting clerks, who 
 have, at Liverpool, 47 through duties out of a totil of 64 duties. We would 
 like to make it clear that it is as necessary to cut down the number of attend- 
 ances as to contract the covering time. Indeed, attempts have already been 
 made to narrow the extremities of duties which have re.sulted in utter 
 failure to improve them. In all these cises either the number of attendances 
 has been increased or the same nnndti'r has Ih-.-u crowded into the narrowed 
 lin:its. 
 
 iSir F. MowaLt : P.iit if a ceitain number of attend mces have U) Ite covered, 
 and if they are to l>e put within narrower limits, the men must expect to 
 do little more than if they are allowed to extend over wider limits. 1 under- 
 stand you to say that they want eight hours' work? 
 
 A. I believe t)liab in many cases it the attendances were properly com- 
 pressed, the duties could be worked through without any break, or with 
 two attendances at most, and the men would not comjilain about that. It is 
 when the men are thrown ofi' for very short intervals l)etween their three 
 and four attendances, -which are spi-ead over 12 hours, that makes it so 
 much worse than when t)he attendances are spread over 16 hours, with longer 
 intervals for lest. I admit it would be quite impracticable to compre.ss 
 the duties m many country places and small towns within eight hours. I 
 am chiefly referring to larg3 towns. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I did not quite follow your argument. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do I understand you to .say the desire of the men is to have 
 a continuous duty of eight hours? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But I am informed and advised that the men consider 
 that a continuous duty of eight hours would be exceedingly fatiguing? 
 
 A. I propose to deal with that later on. I will not be a moment before I 
 come to it. Referring to tliis point of short intervals, a correspondent 
 from a small town wrote me as follows — and I am quite satisfied from the 
 tone of tlie letter that the humour escaped the writer imwittingly : — 
 "When the new surveyor came he revised our duties. They were Ijad duties 
 extending over 15 hours each day. Now we work them with more attend- 
 ances within 13^ hours. But, to give the surveyor his due, the duties were
 
 Hours of Duty — Intervals. 261 
 
 nofc much better before the revision."' It has been objected that the nature 
 of our work renders it impossible for us to do a continuous duty of eight 
 hours. This is actually so in such cases as Scottish towns, where, unfor- 
 tunately, the Dutch tenements-of-flats' system of building prevails, and in 
 parts of large commercial centres where stair -climbing enters largely into 
 the work. But I have never 'heard it suggested that it was impossible for 
 any other class in the Service to perform eight hours' consecutive work, 
 which goes far to admit that in sucii cases our men are doing exceptionally 
 hard work, and should, consequently, liave shorter hours than those with 
 lighter occupations, such as sorting clerks, or be allowed short rests out of 
 their eight hours. 
 
 INTERVALS. 
 
 In many instances the intervals between tlie parts of our long duties are 
 frittered and whiled away in the .streets — often, I regret to have to say (and 
 this, I think, it reflects rather on the Department than on the men), in 
 public-houses. These very intervals have been the causa of many a man's 
 ruin in the way I have just mentioned. I would point out that if a man 
 had better duties he would make his way home instead of loiter- 
 ing about as he has to do in many towns, to si)end his spare time. He 
 would be glad to do his duties in a more compressed period, and then 
 wend his way home to his wife antl family. Some men spend their spare 
 time on the premises, when there is convenience, such as a kitchen. This 
 is especially so at the Liverpool Head Office, where, on certain duties our 
 men never see home from the time of setting out in the morning till the time 
 of reaching there after the completion of all their attendances, owing chiefly 
 to the fact of residence being so far from tiie centre of tlie city. At a few 
 offices men are regLdaily on duty si.x hours at a time without time for a meal, 
 as at Lark Lane, Liverpool. Here, a,s is often the case, if the men had an 
 interval for food, there i.s no culinary convenience. Until the last few weeks 
 there was n(»t even ii kettle to l)oil water, llecently tlie sub-postmaster has 
 supplied one, with a capacity fur al)out a jiinf of water, to sii])ply 17 men. 
 (Laughter.) Fuither, this o&'u:e is insanitary. The men feel really ill after 
 remaining in it for any length of time. There are two or three men at 
 Southport Office who comirierce <luty at 11 a.m., and work through till 4 or 
 4.30 p.m. with no interval for dinner. I should like to say that this is the 
 second attendance. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Where is this? 
 
 A. Southport. 
 
 Q. Is not that a deci.^ive objection to the proposal for a continuous eight 
 hours' duty, that the men wouhl have no interval for dinner? 
 
 A. But those who do eight hours have intervals for meals. 
 
 Q. Then you mean to suggest that, if the work were compressed, you 
 should have intervals given you for meals out of the eight hours? 
 
 A. Yes ; in precisely the .same way as other officials in the Department 
 get them. The sorting clerk and telegraphist get half an hour for dinner and 
 20 minutes for tea if they are working continuous dutj'. I may tell you 
 that this state of affairs in Southport has arisen through the walks being 
 enlarged. They have taken in some of the rural districts. Previously 28 
 men did the Southport district alone. J^leven years ago 28 men were set on 
 this duty by a revision M'hich was brought about, I believe, by Inspector 
 Appleyard. There are now only 23 men in Southport doing what 28 men 
 did eleven years ago, notwithstanding that there are about 2,000 odd more 
 houses to which deliveries have to be made. 
 
 Q. Were those 28 men full-time men? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you certain of that? 
 
 A. I am certain of that. sir.
 
 262 Stephen Dowi.iN<i,'Xiverpool. 
 
 Q. Were they full-time town postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the town postal radius has been enlarged, and two or three 
 places have heen taken in, in addition to there having been a growth of over 
 2,000 houses within the old radius. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But it seems incredible that 23 men are doing now what 
 28 men did before? 
 
 A. It is in the day-time, and in that case the men have no interval for 
 dinner. There are 27 or 28 men on the deliveries still, but some of them 
 are put on the extended districts. No corresponding increase is made for 
 the inner circle. Frequently the interval between two periods of active duty 
 is so short as not to permit of sufficient time to go otf the premises, as at 
 Burnham, ll.S.O., where men are checked off dutj- twice a day for the short 
 space of 20 minutes, between 8.30 and 8.50 a.m.. and 5.30 and 5.50 p.m. The 
 Department would never dream of offering such treatment to sorting clerks 
 and telegrapliists, who claim 30 minutes' meal time out of their eight hours. 
 Contrast the checking off for short sjjaces of time with the rule which ob- 
 tains in Liverjmol, O.B. If a sorting clerk at Liverpool be required for 
 overtime his time is not broken unless more than two hours elapse l>etween 
 the time of finishing his proper duty and the time of taking up overtime. 
 That is, he is credited with and paid for such intervenmg time whether he 
 works it or not. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What is that? 
 
 Witness: If he commences duty at 8 a.m., and finishes at 4 p.m., and is 
 required for overtime at half-past 5 or a quarter to 6, he is not checked off 
 fo.' the interval, but is paid for it. 
 
 Sir A. Godley : Do you say that his time is not broken at all, but that he 
 is regarded as liaving worked all that time, and is credited with and paid 
 for such intervening time whether lie works it or not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: At overtime rate? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you certain of that? 
 
 A. Yes, I am certain of it. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : He i.s paid overtime l>etwe?n 4 oVlock. when his orfjinary 
 duty ceases, and 5.50, wlien lie is again required? 
 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Q. The hour and half, or however long he may l>e doing nothing, is paid 
 for as overtime? 
 
 A. That is so, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I wish you could give me a statement to that effect. I 
 will inquire into it. It is a surprise to me. 
 
 Witness : I thmk my present statement is fairly clear to you, sir? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Very well. 
 
 The Cliairman : At what particular j)]ace does this occur? 
 
 A. At Liverpool, my lord. CJontinuing his statement, witness said: — It 
 is obvious these are the breakfast and tea times of the men at Burnham 
 Office, and that the motive for casting them off duty for these short intervals 
 is to reduce, by a paring-off system, the total amount of actual duty, which, 
 notwitlistanding, is at least 8 hours 20 minutes. If 30 minutes for meals is 
 allowed in the instances adduced, that, at the very least, ought to be allowed 
 the postman out of his eight hours for breakfast, for he has generally to 
 perform the heaviest portion of his day's work before that, and requires a 
 substantial meal. We ask you to recommend that no interval of less than 
 one hour shall interrupt the reckoning of any duty as continuous. 
 
 INEQUITABLE METHOD OF RECKONING A POSTMAN'S DAH.Y 
 
 WORK. 
 The present method of reckoning a postman's time is quite exceptional, 
 and against exceptional treatment we urge our remonstrance. We are not
 
 Hours of Duty— The Day's Work. 263 
 
 allowed the time taken up in going to and coming from the various starting 
 and finishing points. For example — In the suburban district of Hillliead, 
 Glasgow, a postman finishes his delivery at a distance of two miles from the 
 head office. He has to traverse these two miles three times daily, in his 
 own time ; total, six miles, for which he gets no compensation. This in- 
 equitable method of reckoning a postman's time obtains in a greater or lesser 
 degree all over the country. In Southport men are booked off duty at a 
 distance of 1^ miles from their office. They have to return in their own time. 
 I have shoMn how few split duties are performed by sorting clerks at Liver- 
 pool, yet, though those duties only entail two attendances, six of them are 
 compensated by half an hour for tramping time. 
 
 The Chairmiin : And when a man finishes his delivery two miles from the 
 the head office, how far is he from home? 
 
 A. He may or he may not be a long distance. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that, as far as possible, the rounds are arranged so 
 that a man shall leave off as near as can be to his own home? 
 
 A. It is not always the case. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But he makes his own home near where he is likely to 
 lejive off, surely? 
 
 A. He cannot always arrange for that. He cannot always get what he 
 wants. In Liverpool it is not the case. I am informed that, in this par- 
 ticular case, the postman could not obtain a dwelling at Hillhead. It is a 
 suburban and aristocratic district, and he would have to go back to the office 
 to get near hLs home. 
 
 The Chairman: Then he would live near the office? 
 
 A. He might live n?ar the office, or within a reasonable distance of it, 
 but, supposing that a man lived near his walk he would have a long distance 
 to go to the office, and he would be required to cover that three times a 
 dav, so that it amounts to precisely thj same thing. 
 
 Q. Do you use the trams at Liverpool, or not? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I think you finished the last sentence in your statement 
 by saving that the sorting clerks were allowed half an hour for "tramping 
 time"? 
 
 A. Yes : on split duties they are allowed half an hour for tramping time, 
 but only when they have to attend on such duties. 
 
 Q. And is that allowed as p;irt of their day's work? 
 
 A. Yes. As a matter of fact, their day's work comes to 7^ hours. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Does that practice also prevail in Liverpool ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. And, besides that, do they have meal times allowed them? 
 
 A. I do not think so in that case. Neither do we have meal times allowed 
 us, my lord, so that the two cases are precisely analogous in that respect. 
 These anomalies work out to the great disadvantage of the postman, who, 
 according to the method of reckoning I have just referred to, would be 
 giving as much time to the Department as the sorting clerk if he could show 
 only six hours per day on the time sheet. We trust, my lord, that the 
 members of this Committee will be able to fall in with our view, which, we 
 submit, is only a reasonable view, that all time taken up in going to stations, 
 to make collections, in returning home or to office from finishing points 
 other than that necessary to make first attendance, and to return home after 
 the last, be accredited to postmen. 
 
 The Chairman: You are willing to do two journeys in your own time? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. You will give two journeys free? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But any more you want to l>e allowed for? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord.
 
 264 Stki'iien I^o\vjjn<;, Liverpool. 
 
 OVERTIME 
 
 But what will lie said to the fact that the great bulk of our men work time 
 in excess of eight hours' actual duty, in spit:; of this paring system. I find 
 that in most offices the time worked is at least 8^ hours on the average — 
 that is, as far as I have been able to ascert;iin. I think it is a pretty fair 
 average. I have got paper.s from most of the towns all over the country, 
 and 1 do not think that if I got any more it would make much difference in 
 the average. 1 find that men, es[)ecially in the smaller towns, are over 
 eight hours every day, in spite of this paring system. In many instances 
 it exceeds nine hours, as at Stalybridge, where a man works 9 hours 20 
 minutes' actual duty every day in the yeir — Sundays excepted — between 
 10.30 a.m. and 12 midnight; also at Dingwall, where the actual duty f>er- 
 formed is, i.t ordinary times, 8 hours 30 minutes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What do you include in "actual duties"? Do you include 
 the walks? 
 
 A. No, sir. When I say "actual duty" I mean without making any allow- 
 ances, not even counting time for "pouching." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you any proof of tliis? 
 
 A. I can send it to you. It is part work in the office. This duty will, I 
 think, be admitted. There is no chance of completing it in any other way. 
 The duty is chiefly station duty at the office, an<l all of it would be signed 
 for on the sheets. 
 
 Q. And you say it is a regultr duty of 9 hours 20 minutes at Stalybridge? 
 
 A. Yes, sij-, every day ; and for it the man receives no overtime. Again, 
 at Liverpool (Lurk Lane), a section of men perform every alternate week 8 
 hours 50 minutes — often over 9 hours. The alternate duty is one of 8 hours 
 and 10 minutes. At Newcastle-on-Tyne an entire section of men perform, 
 the whole round, 8 hours 30 minutes' actual duty every day, between 6 a.m. 
 and 9 p.m. At Birmingham men are performing 8 hour.s 35 minutes without 
 any compensating duties. At Louth the following duties are worked: — 
 
 1 month at Si hours per day, bi'tween 4 10 a.m. and 8.50 p.m. 
 
 2 months ,, s" ,, ,. ,, 6.0 ,, ., ,, 
 
 3 ., ,, ,, ,, ,, 0.10 ,, 
 
 Thus at this office, apart from times of pressure, overtime is worked during 
 eight months out of twelve without extra paj'. We heard no such complaints 
 from witnesses belonging to other classes before this Committee. The 
 burden of the complaint of those witnesses was to tlie effect that 8 hours 
 was too long. On the contrary, we will be absolutely content with the con- 
 dition of duties about which the other classes have complained, and we won't 
 be happy till we get it. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Chairman: You will be then? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. (Renewed Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Of course, you have one advantage over the sorters. You have not 
 to attend at such unearthly hours as they have? 
 
 A. I think that absolutely the reverse is the fact, my lord. We find that 
 our men have to attend at all hours of the morning, and at all hours of 
 the night. 
 
 Q. Do postmen attend l)etween 10 at night and 5 in the morning? 
 
 A. AVell, we would not thmk that at all a very bad duty. It is a fact 
 tliat our duties are spread over 16 or 17 hours a day. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of the absolute hours. You do not have to attend in 
 the dead of night, do you? 
 
 A. Well, here is the case of a man at Cork who attends from 1.20 a.m. 
 to 10 p.m. His duty is spread over all that time. 
 
 Q. I suppose his are collecting duties in the early hour, are they not? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I should like to look into that Cork case. 
 
 A. Of course ; it might be jjut differently.
 
 Hours of Duty^Overtime — Protracted Duties. 265 
 
 Mr. Smith: It might be represented as a duty from 10 p.m. to 1.20 a.m.? 
 
 A. No ; but it might be represented as a duty from 1.20 in the day till 
 4 the next morning. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : "i^es ; the man at Cork is doing from 1.20 p.m. to 4 a.m. 
 
 The Chairman : Tell us your own experience. What have been your worst 
 attendances of that character? 
 
 A. My worst attendances have been from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. 
 
 Q. Have you had any midnight attendances at Liverpool to do yourself? 
 
 A. No, I have not ; but we would not regard such attendances as bad at 
 all, so long as we put the time in within reasonable limits. In the case of 
 the sorting postmen who have to work night duties, and in the case also of 
 the stampers, their duties only range about 7^ hours. We do not look upon 
 that as a great hardship a*; all. AVhat we complain of is the fact that our 
 duty is spread over the greater part of tlie day. 
 
 The Chairman : That point I quite understand. You complain that your 
 duty is spread over a great number of hours. I was onlj' quoting the case of 
 the sorters to point out that their duty, to a large extent, has to be jier- 
 formed at a time when people generally were in bed. 
 
 A. Well, I shall be able to show that a large percentiige of our men do 
 night duty. I propose to do that when I am dealing with the holiday 
 question. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you suggest that they do a larger percentage of niglit 
 duty than the sorters? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; a much larger pei'centage. 
 
 Q. Night duty — at what hours? 
 
 A. After 10 p.m., at midnight, and in tlie early morning. I sliall be able 
 to show that they have a greater percentage of night duty at Liverpool 
 than have the sorting clerks. I refer, of course, to our indoor staff and I he 
 sorting postmen, who all rank as postmen. 
 
 Q. Wliat is the latest collection at Liverpool? 
 
 A. Ten o'clock. 
 
 Q. And is no pillar-box cleared after 10 o'clock? 
 
 A. No. sir. 
 
 The Chairman: Wlien is the first one in the moi'ning? 
 
 A. Five o'clock. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Just refer back for a minute to the Cork case. It aj)pears 
 to me to be quite clear that the real limits of that man's duty are from 1.45 
 in the afternoon till 4 in the morning? 
 
 A. Yes ; you can take it tliat way. 
 
 PROTRACTED DUTIES. 
 
 The.se are caused by late trains, large influxes of circulars, and heavy 
 mails — such as American mails arriving at large centres like Liverpool. 
 Here we have a very deep-seated grievance. IJy a rule of the Service Lud 
 down by Mr. Raikes, no extra pay is granted to postmen for "mere pro- 
 tracted duties," as that would "put a premium on dawdling." But whatever 
 charge of "dawdling" might be made in tlie case of a late train could scarcely 
 be laid at the door of the postman. Delays caused through late trains are 
 almost the rule in many small towns. Take Dingwall as an instance. There 
 men are frequently compelled to be in attendance 1, 2, and 3 hours in excess 
 of their time without paj-. When a large American mail arrives at Liver- 
 pool a great amount of overtime is incurred in C.B., where it is all paid for ; 
 but no corresponding overtime is paid to the postmen who deliver it. Why 
 we are unable to conceive. If overtime is paid for in one branch it is anoma- 
 lous, unjust, and illogical that it should not he paid for in another. Were 
 it only possible, my lord, for the members of this Commission to witness 
 for themselves the pressure under which the men at Liverpool Head Office 
 have to work at such times with heavy loads of letters which have to be 
 deposited on the ground at every call until they are considerably lightened, 
 after starting from the office at sometliing near the time at ^^llicll' they ought
 
 266 Stephen^Dowling, Liverpool. 
 
 to finish — tliey would ridicule the idea of "dawdling." Then there is the 
 case of large influxes of circulajs. I suppose it will go without saying that 
 an amount of work is indispensable to their delivery. It Ls also as indis- 
 putable that that work must Ije, at least, tenfold what is necessary to sort 
 them ; yet it is of common occurrence that the sorting of them is paid for 
 at overtime nite, whilst no pay whatever is made for their delivery. These 
 circulars are not delivered in proper course, but are detained and spread over 
 a number of deliveries. It is sometimes nearly a week from the time of 
 posting before the delivery of a large influx of them is completely effected. 
 I have abundance of correspondence from towns large and small, throughout 
 the provinces, comjjlaining bitterly that everv time the men arrive on duty, 
 for periods extending over two or three weeks, certain advertising circulars 
 await disposal. They are doled out for delivery in portions imtil the stock 
 is exhausted. Extra time is incurred at every delivery, but not enough' per- 
 haps to set up a claim at each several delivery, yet if the aggregate (^y's 
 time were taken, a claim could be established. But postmen are debarred 
 from making such a claim. In this our treatment is without parallel in the 
 Service. The following is the manner in which an overtime claim was treated 
 at Manchester Office. I will read the claim and replies. Perhaps it will not 
 be necessary for me to mention the man's name, if I hand the papers to you 
 afterwards, my lord. He \^Tote to the surveyor as follows: — "On the 26th 
 Oct. last 1 had a number of letter circulars to deliver along with my 2 p.m. 
 delivery, which I did not finish until 5.25 p.m. I handed to tlie charge-tf ker 
 the overtime claim ei closed, which he returned to me, stating it was a pro- 
 longe-l delivery, and the claim was not al.owed. On the 6th Noveml)er I 
 liad again a rumber o* letter circulars, ana I did not finish until 5.15. The 
 overtime docket is enclo.sed. In support of the claims I respectfully submit 
 that, on the above duties, I was detained on duty after the usual time of 
 finishing them, for periods exceeding one hour, and having, according to 
 rule, drawn the attention of the charge-taker to the exceptionally heavy nature 
 of my deliveries, I am entitled to the overtime claimed. The overtime for 
 the 6th November is 1 hour and 20 minutes, and for the 26th October 1 hour 
 and 15 minutes." He was requested to answer the following explanation: — 
 "With reference to the claim made by you for overtime on the 26th October 
 and 6th November, the charge-taker considers that the extra circulars were 
 not sufficient to cause the deliveries to be unduly prolonged, therefore you 
 are called upon to explain why so much time was occupied in delivering 
 them." The reply from the postman was as follows: — "The charge-taker 
 has only been at this office a short time, and therefore is not sufficiently 
 conversant with my walk to ba able to express a qualified opinion. On 
 liaving made my first claim he did not question me as to the time occupied 
 by me in the delivery. On the 26th October it was 2.50, and on the 6th 
 November it was 2.55 before the sorting and setting were finished, and, 
 these having taken so long — I submit that the time occupied in the delivery 
 was very reasonable. Wliilst in the office I was, in the first place, under 
 the supervision of the charge-taker, and, in the second place, under the super- 
 nsion both of the charge-taker and inspector, and I have not until now 
 been taxed with wasting time. I submit there is no reason for a charge of 
 this description after so long an interval, simply because I have made a 
 claim for overtime, and that, therefore, I am not receiving that fair treatment 
 I have a right to expect from tlie Department." Then the man was re- 
 quested by the inspector to explain why he was so long sorting and setting 
 on 6th November, the demand continuing — "You acknowledged to me that 
 it was not the number of circulars which had caused you to he so late, so 
 much as the fact that they were spread over your double walk : but if they 
 had been only for one or two streets they would have been disposed of in 
 much less time." The answer to this was that "the sorting and setting 
 referred to was done, so far as I was concerned, without any loss of time, 
 and, as I have before mentioned, under tlie supervision i)oth of the change-
 
 Hours of Duty — Protracted Duties. 267 
 
 taker and the inspector. If there had been any time \rastetl, you, as in- 
 spector, would have pointed it out at the time. I am still of opinion that 
 neither sorti-ig, setting, nor deliveiing would have taken so long if they had 
 been confined to one or two streets, instead of being spread over the whola 
 district." The decision of the chief clerk was that the;e were unduly pro- 
 longed deliveries, and also that he was not satisfied that the postman "had 
 made exertions to finish earlier." This is the way in whicii most of these 
 claims are dealt with. We never get any ratisfaction for these prolonged 
 deliveries. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Would you prefer that these circulars should be sent out 
 altogether in a butch, and not spread over a period? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I am about to suggest tliat view. Here I would like to 
 draw the attention of tlie postal authorities to the immense debt the Depart- 
 ment is contracting, the consequences of which might some day be very 
 serious. I refer to the possibility of the postmen's claim for overtime pay 
 passing into law as in America a few years ago. Tliere th-.se clainis wer« 
 met by retrospective legislation, and the men had only to present their claims 
 at the law courts in order to render the Department a debtor for all over- 
 time from the date of each man's entry into the Service. 
 
 The Chairman : I should think that law was made shortly before a Pre- 
 sidential election. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Smith : When was that Act passed ? 
 
 A. Only a few years ago. I have not the exa«t date. I will let you 
 have it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose that, as a taxpayer, you are not very anxious 
 about sucli an Act passing in tliis country? 
 
 A. Well, sir, I should think that the small quota I pay in the shape of 
 taxes would be more than recouped were I to be paid for all overtime I have 
 worked since I have been in the Service. At Hebburn, R.S.O., the duties 
 at ordinary times extend over a period of 14 hours 30 minutes daily (6.30 a.m. 
 to 9 p.m.). The men there are often employed delivering ciiculars one hour 
 extra each day for two or three weeks together, for which tliey do not receive 
 pay. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mean by that, I presume, that their deliveries have 
 been protracted in consequence of having to deliver the circulars? 
 
 A. I meaji to say that the deliveries take up 8 hours without having 
 the circulars thrown in, and we consequently get no pay for delivering the 
 circulars. 
 
 Q. And tho result is that the deliveries are protracted by the circulars? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. The ordinary delivery includes the customary amount of halfpenny 
 niatter, does it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but I am referring to the advertising circulars which come in 
 in large batches. Within the past few months the me.i at t':e Southport 
 Office have worked overtime with circulars on ditferent occasions without 
 pay. Here the inspector has considered it necessary to make special pro- 
 vision for thi delivery of these large quantities of circulars, but on presenting 
 the claim, the Postmaster has refused to meet it, and the insj>ector has been 
 obliged to pay it out of his own pocket. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Where is this case? 
 
 A. At Southport. 
 
 Q. And do yuu believe an inspector lias paid the men out of his own pocket 
 for working the circulars? Did you find it out from the inspector? 
 
 A. I got it from two or three men of long standing. I got it at a meeting 
 of the men— from some of the most respectable men in the Southport Ofiice. 
 
 Q. Do you really believe that the inspector paid a large sum of money out 
 of his own pocket? 
 
 A. I in?an to say that tAvo or three men have told rne that the inspector, 
 ■when paying the postmen, said: "The Postmaster has refused your claim
 
 268 Stephen Dowling, Liverpool. 
 
 for overtime, but neve'* minrl, I will pay it out of my own pocket." That 
 is the evidence I rely upon. Instructions are hid down to the efiFect that 
 these circulars are to be delivered, but that no overtime is to be incurred, 
 which instructions, however, I confass never to have Vjeen able to grasp. The 
 only logical conclusion seems to me to be this — that if men work 8, Sj, and 
 9 hours without them, it Is impossible to deliver these circulars, how- 
 ever skilfully they may be insinuated into the deliveries, without working 
 overtime. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When you say that the men work 8^ hours and 9 hours, 
 do you not know it is a rule of the Department that they shall only work 8 
 hours ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; ttut they are compelled to do it, as the circulars are pressed 
 on them. 
 
 Q. You arj making a sensational statement that the ordinary time of 
 working is 9 hours. 
 
 A. And I have shown you that in many causes and in a great many towns 
 it is Fo. 
 
 Q. Is it not the rule of the Department tliat whenever the duties exceed 
 8 hours a revision shall take place? 
 
 A. It is, sir. But then a revision does not take place until we have brought 
 an immense amount of pressure to bear upon the Department. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then you assert that the general work of the postman 
 exceeds 8 hour.s ? 
 
 A. I think it generally does. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Give us your own hours ? 
 
 A. I commence at 9.45 a.m. 
 
 Q. Are your hours the same every day? 
 
 A. Yes. the same everv dav. I commence at 9.45 a.m., and work till 
 11.15, and sometimes till 11.30 a.m. I have worked till 11.40, but 11.15 is 
 the official time. It is the recognised time. I am due again at 12.15, and 
 I am considered as off duty only that sliort int€rval. 
 
 Q. You are an hour ofiF? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am supposed to be. Then my work lasts till one. I believe 
 the official time is recognised as 1.15. I go on again at 5, and then my duty 
 is continuous till almost 11 o'clock. 
 
 Q. What is the official time? Wlien should it end? 
 
 A. 10.45, but it is frequently 10.50. I may tell you I have an interval in 
 this case. It is tlie only case of the kind we have in Liverpool. Generally 
 speaking, I have an interval of half- an hour for a meal. 
 
 Q. Half-an-hour? 
 
 A. Y'es ; and sometimes a little more. 
 
 Q. At any rate put it at half-an-hour? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; put it at that. 
 
 Q. And, therefore, your actual duty, excluding that half-an-hour interval 
 is Yf hours? 
 
 A. I believe I have left out a quarter of an hour because it is recognised 
 by the Department as an eight hours' duty. 
 
 Q. Well, practically you have an eight hours' duty? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but I am giving you cases in Liverpool and elsewhere, 
 where the men have more? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Quite so. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You do not .say that these duties much exceed eight hours, 
 do you? Would you say that they do in the majority of cases? 
 
 A. I think they do exceed it in the majority of cases. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What time do you spend in the day going backwards and 
 forwards betweeb your own hoilse and the office? 
 
 A. I ?hould say about an hour and a half, 
 
 8if F. Mowatt i Altogether? 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Doen that ineluda eomhig on in the moralog?
 
 Hours of Duty — Weight on Delivery. 269 
 
 A. I live rather near my work. Men from distant walks have to cross 
 where I live. 
 
 Q. Practically you do not go home between 11.15 and 12.15? 
 
 A. Yes, sir/ 1 do. I live close to the work. The 12.15 is a collecting 
 duty near my walk. 
 
 Q. You would not call your duty a particularly severe one? 
 
 A. No, sir ; only in regard to the circulars. It is of the circulars de- 
 livery that I complain. 
 
 Q. The normal duty is not a very heavy duty? 
 
 A. But I do not know how to separate it from what would be called an 
 abnormal duty. It is an aristocratic district, in which advertising circulars 
 are almost the rule. We have an enormous amount of these circulars. 
 
 Q. The effect of it is not apparently to extend the time? 
 
 A. It does extend it, however. I frequently tinish 25 or 30 minutes after 
 the time on each delivery. I am sometimes 40 minutes after the time with- 
 out any pay. 
 
 The Chairman : Then on those occasions is your bag a very heavy one 
 when you start? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it is not a very heavy one. The fact of my not doing -the 
 first delivery accounts for my not having very heavy bags, imless it is with 
 parcels at night. Frequently I have heavj' parcels, and have to set my bag 
 down in order to serve a few house.s, keeping it under my eye during the 
 time I am going backwards and forwards. The witness to whom the case 
 for the weights and parcels is enti-usted will tell you something about that 
 later on, and I am therefore not touching that question. There is, moreover, 
 the pr-^ssure at such times to be taken into consideration. Our duties are 
 so cut up and their pirt*! so unsymmetrical that 30 minutes' extra work at 
 a delivery is freqiicully snffii^ient to pravent a man going home in an inter- 
 val. This is often the case at Liverpool. I have heard, however, from a 
 gieat many other towns that they have similar cases. Thus, in addition to 
 the heavy strain put ui)on a man by these protracted deliveries, he is deprived 
 of Ihe full value of an interval, and, as a consequence, is put to tlie expense 
 of j)urchising food out, whilst his proper meal is spoiled and wasted await- 
 ing iiim at iiome. I trust I have made this grievance clear, for it is a very 
 sore one, the feeling regarding it being very strorg throughout the whole 
 country. If I have failed to impress it diily on this Committee, there will 
 be much disappointment felt by my comrades in all parts, l^esides the 
 grievance is growing and becoming more inteise in proportion to the increase 
 in competition ard consequent advertising. We would point out tliat our 
 men ilo not solicit this overtime, even were it paid for. Our experience is 
 that a postman's daily work is arduous enough without it, and we would 
 liail with gratification any schem3 the object of which would be to relieve 
 us of it. But we regard it as an extreme hardship to be compelled to work 
 time for which we receive no pay, and this hardship is intensified by the 
 fact that all indoor oflicers are paid for all time in excess of 8 hours. At 
 the Liverpool Office there is ?n almost regular influx of advertising matter on 
 Fridays. This is spread over t'.ie Saturday deliveries which are heavier 
 than those of ordinary days apart from circulars, but which, with this extra 
 work, are rendered so oppressive as to leave our men unfit even for recreation 
 on completioa of their duties. 
 
 Mr. Walpble : Have you no Saturday relief at Liverpool ? 
 
 A. No, sir. On New Year's Day last, at Wolverhampton, every postman 
 due at fii^st delivery and Iraving no collection to make, was ordered to attend 
 dilty at 5 a.m., ■\\diich, for most of the men, was one hour bi^fore the proper 
 time. This is of annual occurrence. The men there have never received 
 extra pay for such time. One of tlie men who should haVe bsec due at 
 6 a.m. was brought on duty at 4 a.m. He was paid for the first hour, btit 
 was treated like his fellows for the second—that is. he was not paid at 
 all. On Christmas Eve, men at the same office worked five or six boufs'
 
 270 Stephen Dowling, Liverpool. 
 
 overtime, for which they were not paid. Some of them performed 16^ hours 
 on that day. Bad weather often impedes progress. A man cannot make 
 the same speed during hail, rain, or snow storms, or when, tlie ground is 
 overlaid with ice, No com{>ensation, however, is maie for overtime in- 
 curred at such times. On the contrary, a lack of consideration is often 
 sho\vn, nn 1 men are fined for short deliys with collections, etc. On Sunday, 
 January 13th last year, also at WoIverhamj)ton. there was a heavy fall of 
 snow ; in some districts the men were compelled to make long deto irs to 
 avoid the drifts. The whole of them were late in returning to the oflBcc — 
 in some cases as much as three hours. No overtime was paid. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Before you go on to another point, I wish to ask you as 
 to the attendances — the long attendances — at Cliristmas time, extending 
 over 16 hours. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any doubt that that would be considered as overtime by 
 the Department? 
 
 A. I have no doubt. It is one of the ca.ses in which we are paid overtime, 
 but it is not the Ccse that it is paid at Wolverhampton. 
 
 "Q. Are you sure of that? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it not the fact that you are paid at Liverpool, and is it not the in- 
 tention of the Department that you should be so paid? 
 
 A. I believe such is the intention of the Department, but the men frequently 
 cannot get what the Department allows. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you know whether at Wolverhampton any claim was 
 made for it? 
 
 A. It is not necessary to make any claim ; it is quite a recognised thing 
 at Liverpool, and the sheets are put accorduigly. 
 
 Q. I presume the men are dissatisfied that they were not paid ; but did 
 they not make any application for it? 
 
 A. Frequently at these small ofiices men have a special dislike to claim 
 even their rights. 
 
 Q. But did they make any claim? 
 
 A. I do not know whether they did. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not the case that at all offices an exact record is 
 kept of every single hour's attendance by postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; they are supposed to keep one. 
 
 Q. But don't they? 
 
 A. I do not know that they sign special overtime sheets. 
 
 Q. But is not every postman's daily record kept? 
 
 A. Yes. sir ; it is kept. 
 
 Q. And therefore you can see at once what overtime a man does? 
 
 A. Yes ; you can see it on the sheets. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You have no doubt that the practice pursued at Wolver- 
 h."mpton is not general throughout the country? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; 1 have no doubt about that. 
 
 Q. And the case of Wolverhampton is an exceptional one then? 
 
 A. It is an exceptional case, but tl'are may be one or two other places 
 where a like course is pursued. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether the Wolverhampton men made any claim? 
 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether, by any chance, the Cliristmas overtime claims 
 from Wolverhampton liave not yet been passed? You must remember it is 
 not very long since Christmas. 
 
 A. Well, we have had ours a long time at Liverpool. I have heard tliat 
 the Wolverhampton men have been treated in this way for years. 
 
 Q. But is it not a fact that some of these overtime claims are not passed 
 I'll some time after Cliristmas?
 
 tiours^of^Duty — Christmas' Overtime Payment. 2f 1 
 
 A. It is a fact ; but I repeat it has been the rule at Wolverhampton not 
 to pay them. 
 
 Mr. Smith : In previous years ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Whose practice was that ? 
 
 A. It will lie with the Postmaster, my lord. The men in these places — • 
 in these small places — are not able to bring their cases forMard so forcibly 
 as we would be able at Liverpool. I am quite certain, from the nature of 
 the comjilaints I have had from Wolverhampton, that the case has, in all 
 possibility, been put before the Postmaster ; of course, I cjinnot be certain 
 of that, but I should judge it from the bitterness of the way in wliich the 
 complaints have been made in this matter. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Before you come to another head of your evidence, there 
 is one point on Avhicli I had intended to a.sk you a question when you 
 were putling forward a claim for tlie time the men spend in going to and 
 from their deliveries to their homes. You said you tliouglit it should be 
 allowed with the exception of one journey to the office in the morning, and 
 a journey liome in the evening. Have you thought at all how that should 
 be estimated? You do not suggest, I suppose, that a man might reside where 
 he likes, and then be able to claim whatever time lie occupied in going 
 backwards and forwards? 
 
 A. No ; but I should say there should be a reasonaljle average time allowed. 
 I would not let a man reside where he liked, but we do want some reasonable 
 alloAvance made in these cases. 
 
 UNVARYING LATE DUTIES. 
 
 In addition to what I said about long duties earlier on, I have to draw 
 your attention to the fact that many of these duties, performed by nundiers 
 of )nen at oftices belonging to different groups, are \mvarying late duties. 
 At Newcastle-on-T}Tie an entire section of men perform a stationary late 
 duty, the covering time of which is about 16 hours — from 5 or 6 a.m. till 
 9 or 9.15 p.m. Tiiat is all the year round. At Liverpool a complete section 
 at three district offices perform an imvarying late duty l)etween 9.45 a.m. 
 and 10.45 p.m., without even a nominal relief — that me:m.s without Saturday 
 relief or anA-thing of the kind. Tiiese men may change duties for an "early 
 day" if they wish, once a week ; but the conditions under wliich this early 
 day is taken render it a most undesirable change. After wox-king till 10.45 
 on the previous niglit, this change necessitates a reappearance on duty at 
 6 a.m. to perform a heavy day's work Avith three attendances, extending till 
 5 p.m. or later. It Avill be seen from this that a short night's re.st and a 
 long day's work would not conduce to a condition favourable to making 
 private use of the evening — the object of such a change. There are men at 
 Liverpool Office who have performed this or a similar late duty for the pi.st 
 six years, and whose prospects of a change are so gloomy that, the present 
 stagnation of promotion to senior sections continuing, they are certain to 
 find themselves still on it six years hense. It is argued that these are young 
 junior men ; but there is every probability of their mending of that fault 
 whilst they still find their duty unchanged, unless more disposition is shown 
 by the officials at Liverpool to improve things. But I .submit that it is JMst 
 because they are young men that tliey .'<]iould not be called upon to make 
 such a sacrifice. Environment is now busy moulding their chaiacters and 
 ii.delibly labelling them for their life-jourcey ; yet here we find these young 
 fellows on the threshold of their career beset by the gloom of a persistent 
 late duty — cut off from that proper social intercourse who.se iniluence is so 
 essential a factor in brightening their ycung lives and producing better and 
 ha])pier men. This state of things is demoralising. I tremble for the future 
 of these young fellows. Many of their walks lie in squalid districts, where 
 they have to work at nights amidst brawls and drunkenness on every hand. 
 Is it a matter for wonder that they themselves should, in turn, take to drink?
 
 272 SiKiMiEN DowMNO, Livcipool. 
 
 And this is the painful fact. I warn the Liverpool oflBcials that unless they 
 speedily alter the conditions of duty of this section, from wliicli the other 
 sections are recruited, they will have in future such a rate of drunkenness 
 as they have never yet known. Punishment will be no deterrent. Men 
 grow sullen, reckless, apathetic under it. Better remove the cause. 
 
 EARLY DUTIES. 
 Hitherto 1 have confined myself to examples of long split duties. I now 
 give an example of a shorter split duty at Liverpool District Offices. 
 EXTRACT FROM TIME SHEKTS AT S.D., Nov. 30th, 1895. 
 
 14 Walk. Time Worked. 
 
 1st Attendance, 6.0 a.m. to 8.50 a.m. ... 2h. 50m. 
 2rd „ 10.15 a.m. to 1.50 p.m. ... 3h. 36m. 
 
 3rd ,, 2.45 y.m. to 5.30 p.m. ... 2h 45m. 
 
 Total. ... 9h. 10m. 
 Tiie men are i)iid no overtime fur working on these duties. This is an ex- 
 tract from the time sheets at S.D. It is a ilay when the men worked under 
 pressure. It was t! e 30th November, and the walk I liave taken M'as a 
 moderately light walk. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then the.^e are exceptional attendances you arc going to 
 give us — attendinces under pressure? 
 
 A. I asked one of our men to give me nn account of his time and lie took 
 a d ly of pressun^ whic'i happened to be the day before I asked him. 
 (). But still you admit it is a diy of pressure? 
 A. I ilo, sir. I now come to — 
 
 7 Walk. W.D., Nov. 30th. 1895. 
 
 Time Worked. 
 1st Attendance, 5.30 a.m. to 9.15 a.m. ... 3h. 45m. 
 2nd ,, 10.45 a.m. to 1.16 p.m. ... 2h. 3Cm. 
 
 3rd ,, 2.45 p.m. to 6.5 p.m. .. 3b. 20m. 
 
 Total. ... 9h. 35m. 
 
 Xo time is here allowed for '"poucliing." lliis. too, Ls one of tlie lighter 
 walks at the head office. I may ray that one or two occasions that the time 
 the mcD skirt on the collectiou is not on the sheet. But still the time is 
 indisputable. It is a set time at which he has to make the collection, and 
 I am therafori taking it as tlie time of attendance, and taking his time of 
 firishing from the sheet. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is a day of pressure again ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, it is. I l)e]ieve it was a day of pressure. We have many 
 of them. 
 
 The (Jhairnian : Have you got tJie official times that the men should have 
 worked on those days? 
 
 A. No, my lord. I have not. 
 
 Q. But it is rather important, is it not? Is that not really the important 
 thing? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; I tliink that these davs coma a great deal oftener than 
 is admitted. Tliere are many days of very hea\-y pressure, and I think ii 
 was necessary for me to take a day of pressure to show what we have to 
 do sometimes : we are frequently told that we have lighter days, when wo 
 do not complete our eight hours" actual work, but t.his applies equally to 
 other blanches of the Service, the men in which are never asked to work 
 overtime in times of pressure without getting paid for it. I think that a 
 day of pressure like this is the best possible eximyjle I could give. Xot 
 withstanding tlie arduous nature of this duty at W.D.. tiiere is an arkiitionai 
 collection imposed, by rotation, at 9.45 a.m. — tlie meu'^ lueakfist time. It 
 is true that this collection does not often fall to a man's turn ; but each nian 
 has to make it for a week wl>en it reaches him.
 
 Hours of Duty — Early Duties. 273 
 
 Sir F. Mov. att : How ofte'i does that duty reach a imn' 
 
 A. It revolves around 16 walks, and I should think it would not reach ;v 
 man more than once in eight months, but .vhen he has to do thit particular 
 duty the work becomes unendurable. He has to do it for a week. It really 
 amounts to this — he comes on from 5.30 until 1 o'clock, and does not get 
 any prof«r time for breakfast. 
 
 The Chairman : I do rot quite understand how you make that out? 
 
 A. Perhaps I misread figures. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : What I take you to say is this — that this occasional 
 delivery occurs between 9.15 and 10.45? 
 
 A. Yes ; and a man has frequently to run round his walk in order to 
 complete his first delivery in time to make tlie 8.30 a.m. collection, which he 
 •lias to bring in l)efore h-\ can get his breakfast. 
 
 Q. What is the man doing at 5.30, when he goes in? 
 
 A. He at once begins to sort his walk. 
 
 Q. And when does he begin the actual delivery? 
 
 A.^ Some time between seven and eight. 
 
 Q. And then what is he doing from 8 till 9.15? 
 
 A. He is out on liis delivery ; he does not start until botween seven ant\ 
 eight, and the qu&stion is whether he will be able to finish in time to do 
 this collection. The quantity of correspondence is very heavy sometimes, 
 and a man may not get out on his delivery until 8 o'clock in the morning. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He has only to sort his own ^^'alk? 
 
 A. Well, there are sometimes three, four, and even five sides to a walk, 
 and the four or five men who are engaged upon it would commence by 
 dividing the correspondence into five parts, and when they had sorted those 
 parts they would exchange them according to the particular sides which they 
 would have to deliver. It would ba perhaps 7.30 or 8 o'clock before they 
 go out, and, at a rush, it takes a man till after half-pist eight to finish his 
 delivery ; then he has to go riglit away and make las collection and bring 
 it in. That would occupy hmi until 9 or 9.15. On his return he might 
 liave a few bad letters to deal with, or something of that sort, but I have 
 rot counte<l that in at all. He will then have t-o leave the oifice again at 
 9.30 to make this additional collection, and he returns downstairs to the 
 Circulation Branch about five minutes past ten. He will be due on again 
 at 10.45, and, consequently, he is deprived of any proper time for breakfast. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That ha])j)ens once in six months, you say? 
 
 A. It revolves roimd 16 walks, and it occurs once in eight or nine months. 
 Sir A. God ley : And then it lasts for a week? 
 
 A. Yes ; and then it makes tlie duty unendurable. I wrote out a petition 
 myself, and all the men signed it with the object of getting the collection 
 taken off, as we found the duty very heavy without it, but it wa.s opposed 
 by our inspector, and we were unable to get rid of it. Add to this duty the 
 time taken up going to and fro:ii points of starting and finishing, and we 
 get a result of a sweating duty. At the end of it ? tudy with a view to ad- 
 vancement or recreation — they are luxuries for others, not for postmen. For 
 them — ^bed ! At this office men on first delivery carry out from 30 to 90 lbs. 
 — sometimes as much as 120 lbs. — and are worked all day at the highest 
 pressure ; in the mornings, m fact, at fever heat. Thev have to climb the 
 numerous flights of stiiirs in the chambers of our busy commercial centre 
 without any assistance ro carry their loads, and as it would be impossible 
 to manipulate their letters with these loads on their shoulders, serious risk 
 is run by depositing the bigs of letters on the lower stages of buildings, 
 where they are exposed to the danger of being stolen. 
 
 PRESSURE CAUSED BY COLLECTIONS OR STATION DUTY 
 
 BEING AIT ACHED TO DELIVERIES. 
 Where collections ai"e attiic'ied to the end of a delivery, it is commonly 
 the case that the time allowed for such delivery Ls so narrowly defined tliat,
 
 2?4 
 
 Stephen Fowling, Liverpool. 
 
 under the least pressure, men are greatly liarassed to complete it in time in 
 make the collection. At the Southport Office men have Ijeea ohligei] t<. 
 make provision themselves for a coll'CLi(jn under such circumstttnces, hy 
 paying a substitute. Southport men have paid cub fares themselves in 
 order to reach the office in time with tliese collections. At Hebburn, R.S.O. 
 (Durham), men have to meet trains at the end of their late delivery, and in 
 consequence of late despatches, which are conmion at certain times of the 
 year, they have to turn themselves into harriers in order to be in time for 
 their bags at the station. In such cases, at Liverpool Office, men are in- 
 structed to br«tk off their deliveries in time to collect. But if tliis is done 
 at tlie evening delivery we are compelled to go to complete the delivery in 
 the meal time, which keeps us on duty for about six hours without food. I 
 may explain that on the 6.15 delivery under such circumstances the delivery 
 is not completed utitil nearly 10 o'clock at night. A man lia.s to do liis collec- 
 tion, and after that has to return to complete his delivery. In tlie meantime 
 another man goes out wit'i the later delivery, some of the letters of which 
 may l)e delivered before those of the earlier delivery. We submit that' it is 
 a bad system to have a collection dependent on tlie finishing of a delivery, 
 which, in spite of all gauging, is a variable quantity. 
 
 CASE FOR THE JERSEY MEN. 
 
 The hours of the Jersey postmen are very uncertain, and extend over 
 from 12 to 18 hours per day, owing mainly to the irregular arrival of the 
 mail boats. Some of their duties commence at 6.10 a.m. and extend till 
 11.30 p.m., a covering time of 17 hours 20 minutes. They have three, four, 
 and five attendances jjer day, subject to arrivals of boats. These arrivals 
 are rarely — if ever — at advertised hour, as shown by the following table, 
 which states the actual times of arrivals for the most favourable month of 
 the year — July : — 
 
 HOURS OF AKRIVAL OF SOUTHAMPTON MAIL nOAT AT .JKRSKV FOR 
 THE MONTH OF .iri-V, 1S9). 
 
 l^ates. 
 
 Due. 
 
 Arrival. 
 
 [ Arrival. 
 
 
 A.M. 
 
 A.M. 
 
 1 T'.M. 
 
 2, 
 
 8.0 
 
 10.30 
 
 
 3, 
 
 
 9.35 
 
 ... 
 
 4, 
 
 
 9.50 
 
 
 5, 
 
 
 8.45 
 
 
 0, 
 
 
 11.30 
 
 '.'.'. 
 
 7, 
 
 
 8.35 
 
 
 9, 
 
 
 8.20 
 
 
 10, 
 
 
 8.50 
 
 
 11, 
 
 
 8.15 
 
 
 12, 
 
 
 8.10 
 
 
 13, 
 
 
 9.15 
 
 
 14, 
 
 
 8 35 
 
 
 IG, 
 
 
 8.55 
 
 ... 
 
 17, 
 
 
 8.45 
 
 
 18, 
 
 
 9.30 
 
 ... 
 
 It), 
 
 
 9.30 
 
 
 20, 
 
 
 1150 
 
 
 21, 
 
 
 9.35 
 
 ... 
 
 23, 
 
 
 8.55 
 
 
 2i. 
 
 
 11.35 
 
 
 25, 
 
 
 8.55 
 
 
 2G, 
 
 
 • •• 
 
 7.10— Delayed by fog. 
 
 27, 
 
 
 10.40 
 
 ... 
 
 28, 
 
 
 0.55 
 
 ... 
 
 30, 
 
 
 9.J0 i 
 
 ... 
 
 31, 
 
 
 8.50 1 

 
 Hours of Duty — The Jersey Case. 275 
 
 Months could be given showing four arrivals after mid-day. Now, the 
 iT.en's duties are based on the arrival of the boats at their advertised hour — 
 8 a.m. From that hour they have to be either within call or on the premises. 
 Thus they are kept in attendance many Jiours beyond their proper time, 
 almost every day, for which tliey are not paid. Between periods of active 
 duty all time is checked off, even to five minutes, although the men be un- 
 able to leave the premises. 
 
 The Chairman : But the men have a good deal of latitude, have they not? 
 The boats can be seen a long way' before they come in. They are sig- 
 nalled, are they not? 
 
 A. There are some parts — La Ro'iue. for instance — where they cannot get 
 a signal at all ; in this case it protracts the duty. The men get a very 
 small amount of pay, and it prevents them doing anything else. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the case that when the boats arrive exceptionally 
 late the men are always paid overtime? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I have an idea that it Ls. 
 
 A. I am told by the Jersey men that it is not so ; they are paid some- 
 times when they get a supplementary delivery. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that if men are kept in attendance ;awaiting a 
 boat, the arrival of which is j)rotracted, they are not paid overtime, and liave 
 no right to it? 
 
 A. No, sir ; they get no overtime for it. 
 
 Q. I think you are under a miskike. 
 
 A. Wfefll, I've written two or three times, and I have been informed that 
 the}'' do not get paid ; the only time when they get overtime is for supple- 
 mentary delivery. 
 
 Q. And do you say that where the Itoats are except ion;illy late they get 
 no overtime? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Well, I think you have been misinformed. 
 
 A. Well, the men tell me they are quit.-, satisfied if tlie boats arrive 
 before 10 a.m. That is to say, they would be satisfied to be detained for 
 two hours over their proper time, but ask to be paid overtime when it 
 exceeds two iiours late. 1 should take it from that that they were not 
 receiving overtime. It is only in the oases of supplemcntai"y deliveries that 
 they do so. I am not speaking of those deUveries, I am speaking only of 
 the ordinaiy deliveries which are delayed by the lateness of the boat. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Well, I think you are under a misapi)relieusiou. 
 
 Witness : Tlie men at St. Helicrs have no Sunday relief, and they get 
 neither pay nor relief for working Bank Holidays. I'liese protracted duties 
 ai'e sufficientlv drying to the regular men. but to the unfortunate auxiliaries 
 and sub-office ^^'^n — who receive pay as low as 63. per week in return for 
 six or seven hears" work per day, and who are dependent on other employ- 
 ment to eke out their miserable pittance — to these they spell starvation, 
 since, on account of the uncertainty of the hour at which they are freed 
 from duty, it is next to impossible to obtain regular employment. We 
 submit that tliese conditions of work are discreditable to the Service. I do 
 not think it is either in the interests of the Department or of the men, in 
 so urgent a case, to clothe the naked truth in euphemisms ; therefore I 
 declare openly that the Department i.s here guilty of sweating. These men 
 are badly paid — some of them — badly clothed, and — I was abotit to say badly 
 fed, but 1 am unable to conceive how certain of tliem are fed at all after 
 house rent, etc., are cleared. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Who do you say are working six or seven hours a day for 
 6s. a week? 
 
 A. I should have said that they were sub-office postmen whose work aver- 
 ages from six to seven hours a day. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Where is this? Is it at St. Ileliers?
 
 270 Stephen Dowling, Liverpool. 
 
 A. No. I should sav it was some small part of Jersey — some small oi'v 
 there. 
 
 Q. Wliat do you say they are paid? Is it only 6-«. or 7.s. a week you 
 suggest? 
 
 A. Yes ; but some of the auxiliiries have had a revision lately, they have 
 liad a sliglit increase, but that onlv affects one or two men in Jersey. These 
 men are attached to La Ro'iue, tipper Trinity, etc., which are very small 
 offices. 
 
 Q. But wlien you say that the men at St. Heliers have no Sunday relief, 
 are you referring to the cases of established tf)wn postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you certain of that? 
 
 A. They tell me it is so ; I must rely on them. 
 
 Q. liut you kmtw it is against the ordinary rule of the Department? 
 
 A. I admit it is, but it is a very simil'r case to that at Wolverhampton. 
 
 Q. But is it not tlie case that if no boat arrives at Jersey on Monday 
 morning there is no duty that nioming? 
 
 A. I know that their duties are lighter on Mondays than on other days, 
 through no })o;it arriving. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Let us go luick to the Soulhport case for a moment. You 
 said you had known officers take a ca'i on tlieir own account. Are you 
 acquainted with Rule 58 affecting town postmen? Does not that rule pro- 
 vide tliat a town postman may be allov.ed to employ a cab or other con- 
 veyance ^vhen the weight of liis collection exceeds 35 lbs. ? But that if he 
 employs a cab he must obtain a ticket from the driver, and hand it to the 
 proper officer? Does not that rule apply to the men at Southport? 
 
 A. I was not speaking about the weiglit of the collection ; I was showing 
 that the inen were workinir therf- under pres.sure. thit they were not able 
 to oouipk'te their deliveri-s in time, and tint t ey had consequently to take 
 a cab to get to the office in time with their collections, quite irrespective of 
 the weight of their bags. 
 
 PROPOSAL FOR THE UTILISATIOy OF POSTMEN'S SPARE TIME. 
 
 It is admitted that eight hours is a fair day's work, provided that it is 
 accompanied by suital)le conditions of attendance. It is also admitted that 
 very considerable difficulty miy ])e exi>erienced in cutting out an exact 
 eight hours' day for every postman. If the Department credit postmen 
 with working intervening time it is only ju.^rt that they should be employed 
 on some useful work. T'is proposal i'lvolves the re-organisation of the 
 Service, so that more of the sorting wor'' should fall on postmen. As an 
 iuustration I will take Liverpool. In J iverpool C.B. there are about 25 
 sorting clerks employed on primary sorting, including newspaper sorting. 
 This lighter form of work coull easily lie performed by postmen, and alter- 
 nated with the lieavier outdoor work. We do not anticipate any difficulty 
 through failure on the part of postmen to make themselves efficient. In 
 support of this view we would point out that the greater part of the primary 
 sorting is now done by postmen at Liverpool with a fair rate of efficiency, 
 which would increase with the greater practice accruing from the scheme we 
 suggest : also that in many towns the complete devolution of duties obtains, 
 under which sy.stem postmen substitute clerks during annual or sick leave. 
 We iirge that this would pla-ce a greater reserve force at the command of 
 the Department for times of pressure, and would result in the greater 
 efficiency of the Service, and, in the long run, even in economy. 
 It would also create a training ground for postmen with a view to their ad- 
 vancement to sorterships, which., as my friend Mr. W^alton will tell yoij. 
 is urgently needed, the low percentage of promotions froin our ranks l>eing 
 unparalleled in the Service— a condition of things not calculated to stimti- 
 \at« to that healthy emulation without which the best qualities of men
 
 Hours of Duty — Holidays and Casual Leave. 277 
 
 cannot be evolved — ^a condition, too, which is solely accountable for the 
 apathy of our men. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Your argument seems to be that distinction should be abol- 
 ished altogether? 
 
 A. I suggest there should still remain sorterships. the duties of which 
 should be performed by postmen. The men could then pas^ from the out- 
 door to the indoor department, according to practice. 
 
 HOLIDAYS. 
 
 (On behalf of London and Provinces.) 
 The subject of holidays is one of most vital importance. We are of 
 opinion that the time over which this annu:il relaxation from work ex- 
 tends is based on a thoroughly unsound principle — that of wages or salary. 
 It seems to us that it ought to be based rather on the more just principle 
 of the nature and (|uantity of work performed. It is an indisputable fact 
 that under the present system those who have the shortest hours and the 
 lightest work have also the longest holidays. Dealing with the hours of 
 attendance, I went fully into the nature of our work ; what I .said 
 then applies equally to holidays. Tiong hours, eirly mornings, 
 late nights, hardships and delays arising from atmosji'.ieric and other causes, 
 divided attendances and consequent irregularity, sometimes amounting to 
 almost entire absence of time for food and rest, heavy loads, responsibilities 
 (and it must be acknowledged that there is no duty in the Service more res- 
 ponsible than that of the final disposiil of letters, including registered and 
 other valuable and important communications). For instance, a mistake in 
 the circulation of a letter may be — and is often — easily rectified. But a 
 mistake made by the postman — the mis-delivery of a missive to any other 
 than tlie proper addr^-ssee. is not e»«ily set ]-i>,'lit, and mty have vfry grave 
 consequences. The postman has to deal finally with all communications 
 for his walk, search directories, order books, etc.. and attend to the clerical 
 work of re-direction ; his work, in short, is the consummation of the under- 
 taking of the Department to convey missives to their destinations, and 
 demands an amount of intelligence and judgment which is only too often 
 under-estimated by the authorities. That work involves, as we have seen, 
 not only physical but mental strain, and entitles him to more consideration 
 from tlie Department as regards recuperation and relaxation than those 
 whose work is less exacting and who have shorter hours. Instead of this 
 the postman has two weeks' holiday, whilst sorting clerk and telegraphist 
 have three weeks. At times of pressure, such as Christmas, neither of these 
 undergoes the strain which is put on the postman ; the telegraphist has no 
 pressure to compare with it, and the sorting cletk finishes his work just 
 when the postman is about to start on the heaviest part of the whole pres- 
 sure, after working side by side with the sorting clerk through all tlie 
 earlier stages. I do not fear contradiction when I state that a whole 
 month's Mork is compressed into the few days of the Christmas pres- 
 sure. Therefore we think our claim modest when we ask that our holidays 
 be extenrled to three weeks on grounds of equality with sorting clerks. 
 It may be urged in support of continuing the difference now existing that 
 the sorting clerk has a sedentary, indoor occupation, with a large amount 
 of night duty. But it is the fact that there are postmen also emploj'ed on 
 this kind of work, yet they are not thought to require an extra week's 
 holiday, and do not get it. At Liverpool, for example, there are about 152 
 sorting postmen, stampers, mail messengers, and parcel postmen, all of 
 whom f)erform indoor work with an enormously larger percentage of night 
 duties, as shown from the following:-'-^ 
 
 Night Duties (Liverpool). 
 
 Sorting Postmen, 58 per cent., or 14 weeks out of 24. 
 
 Stampers, &c., 25 ,, 1 week ,, 4. 
 
 Sorting Clerks, f 18 ,, 11 weeks ,, CA. 
 
 50 per cent of the' work of the'London Postmen is indoor.
 
 278 Srr.iMiKN Dowling, Liverpool. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are these indoor duties performed by the same postmen ? 
 
 A. Tlie sorting i)ostinen do both outside and indoor work, but the 
 stampers, mail messengers, and others, are always employed on what are 
 called indoor duties. 
 
 Mr. Smitli : But I am referring to those on sedentary duties. 
 
 A. Well, though a stamper is not, in a literal sense, on a sedentary duty, 
 in the same sense as a sorting clerk standing at his desk also is not on a 
 sedentary duty, hut these are usually called sedentary duties. I may say I 
 am told that in London 75 per cent, of the jwstmen's work is indoor. 
 
 Q. Then you wish to correct your statement on that point? 
 
 A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: We ai''3 to feike it that 75 per cent, of the work 
 of the London postmen is indoor? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Smith : And you want to substitute the figures 75 for 50 in your 
 evidence? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, since I have to take this evidence from the London post- 
 men ; I am speaking on their behalf in order to save the time of the 
 Committee. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wliat you really mean is that 75 per cent, of the time of 
 tlie postmen in London engaged on deliveries is employed on indoor work? 
 Does that exclude collections? 
 
 A. I cannot quite say, sir. In this connection I would point out that a 
 great disparity exists in the amount of time rendered by sorting clerks 
 and that by postmen to the Department annually. At Liverpool C.B., on 
 the "A" section, sorting clerks perform 35 hours 30 minutes per week for 
 seven weeks out of 26 — that is, they get a relief on Saturdays of 2 hours 
 30 minutes. They have six split duties at 7 hours 30 minutes per day. On 
 these split duties we may allow them one hour for going and coming to and 
 from home, making their split duty stand at 8 hours 30 minutes. Take a 
 postman from the same office, and average his day's work at 7 hours 45 
 m.inutes — I want to be here under the mark if possible. We have allowed 
 the sorting clerk one hour for his duty of two attendances, and therefore 
 allow the postman two Lours for his three attendances. Roundly speaking, 
 we find that the sorting clerk works about sixteen days less in the year 
 than the postman — the extra week's holiday and the meal time of 30 
 minutes not included. This is independent of all the unpaid overtime 
 I have shown to be performed by our men. By making the concession of 
 three weeks we feel assured the Department would be partly recouped by 
 the conseqiient improved standard of health. It is an all-important matter 
 that a postman should be in a robust state of health to enable him to cope 
 with his exacting conditions of work, and to resist any incipient infection 
 during his visits to slums and fever-haunted dens. Sir W. B. Richardson 
 says : " Some men are kept too long engaged in what many consider light 
 work, but which by its persistency tells rapidly on the constitutional power. 
 Postmen are good illustrations of tliis. Tlie automatic rapidity with which 
 the postman does his work so cleverly and, as a rule, so admirably, is. I 
 be'lieve, in every case too prolonged each day to be consistent with the health 
 of the class as a whole. To be constantly on foot and in rapid motion, 
 as the postman is, is to be subjected to a strain that must needs be limited 
 in its duration. Tlie labour of a postman stops from necessity much sooner 
 than it need do. and much sooner than it ought to for the advantage of the 
 public. A postman who knows his disti-ict perfectly is an invaluable public 
 servant, and he ought to be kept at his work as long as possible. It would 
 be more expedient, indeed, both in regard to public expense and convenience, 
 to employ a greater number of hands in the Postal Service than to force an 
 excess of labour out of the few." 
 
 The Chairman : Surely in regard to what you quote as to the postman 
 being constantly on foot, you are rather arguing against what you have 
 already said?
 
 HoursW t)uty — Holidays and Casual Leave. 279 
 
 A. I was then referring particularly to the Liverpool and London men, 
 in the country it is very different. I have shown you that the men in 
 Liverpool and London are not considered to require three weeks' holiday, 
 although a great percentage of them work indoors, and a large percentage 
 are also on night duty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: It appears to me that Sir W. B. Richardson, when he 
 wrote that paragraph, did not seem to have been aware of the conditions 
 under which Liverpool and London postmen did their duty. 
 
 A. I should say he took the postmen in a general sense, and I should say 
 that, in a general sense, they do mora walking than sorting. Tlie members 
 of the Royal Irish ConstalniLiry get one month's holiday. We api>eal to 
 you to recommend that Mr. Morley's wish to " arrange, whenever it could 
 be done without considerable charge to the taxpayer, that postmen's annual 
 leave should be granted for the period exclusive of the winter months " 
 be carried out. We feel confident there are few offices where this could not 
 be done imder the conditions laid down by Mr. Morley. It is our opinion 
 that due efforts have not been made in many offices to give tliat desired 
 effect. Liverpool and Birmingham, for insUince, are offices belonging to the 
 same group ; but whilst, I am glad to say, Liverpool has succeeded in 
 obtaining this arrangement, Birmingham has been relused it. A deputation 
 of Birmingham postmen waited on their Postmaster with the object of 
 pressing their claim, but they were met with a refusal on the grounds that 
 it would incur extra expense. Such anomalies, we feel satisfied, will not 
 be brought under the notice of this Committee in vain. It is obvious that 
 what can be done in Liverpool could also be done in Birmingham. The Old- 
 liam postmen presented a memorial before their Postmaster in December, 
 1892, asking this concession. The re juest was granted and came into 
 operation ; but the arrangement not having been set forth in a document, 
 the old system was reverted to on the advent of a new surveyor. I am in- 
 formed that the 8 months' system would work out with very little additional 
 expense there. In many small offices — such as Chatliill (R.S.O.) — ^a grie- 
 vance is experienced whicli dei)rives men of the full value of their holidays. 
 I refer to the insufficiency of tlie allowance made for substitution. The 
 minimum pay only is granted to substitutes. As a consequence, the men 
 have to put their hands into their pockets to add 4s. per week before they 
 can find a substitute willing to act. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Can you give me an instance where that is done? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I have one or two letters to that effect at home, where 
 the men say they have had to do it. I can send the letters on to you if 
 necessary. 
 
 Q. You say they have to pay a portion of the substitute's salary? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether these men have drawn attention to the fact 
 that they have had to pay money out of their own pockets? 
 
 A. I can only surmise so from the nature of their letters. 
 
 Q. Do you know that if they had drawn attention to it the money would 
 have been repaid as a matter of course? 
 
 'A. No, sir, I do not. 
 
 Q. Will you take it from me that it is so? 
 
 A. Of course, I will take it from you ; but in the meantime I will send 
 in a written statement to you. Tliis is felt very keenly, more so as that is 
 the time above all others when men want all their savings for meeting the 
 expenses which are inseparable from holidays. This insufficiency of allow- 
 ance applies also to Bank Holidays. The men at Chathill are comj)elled to 
 take a day's leave in lieu of pay for working on- those holidays. But they 
 have to add about 8d. per day to the allowance before they can get a man 
 to work in their stead. At Cork 24 outdoor men perform on an average 
 foil" hours' duty every Bank Holiday, and instead of pay being granted, 
 they are relieved in the following waj-- : — On five successive Mondaj'^s the 24 
 walks are compressed into 19. Thus, in order to relieve the remaining
 
 280 Sl'll'llKN DuWLING, i/iveipoul. 
 
 five men, additionil work is tlirown on each man for 20 daj's in the year. 
 Tills, practically speiking, means no H;ink Holidays for tlie Cork man. 
 since the day he t;ikes in lieu thereof is taken at iiis own expense. I thin!' 
 that the London jjostmen liave a great grievance as to Bank Holidays. On 
 those days they are re'juired to perform duty 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you going to speak on bslnlf of the London postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Tiie London postmen have a great grievance as to Bank 
 Holidays. On those days they are refpiired to psrform duty for from four 
 to five hours. Instead of pay, as at fjiveipool, they are allowed time off. 
 and insteiid of getting a clear day, as is the cjise in man}' to«Tis, the men 
 only get the £ictual time off which they have worked. This is regarded 
 as very unfair, since at other Government offices a full day's leave is given 
 ill lieu of Bank Holidays, although the time of actual work may not have 
 amounted to one hour. We urge that the time on sucli days is of gieatf^- 
 value than that at onlinary times ; for example, there are axlvantages U> be 
 gained from excursions and facilities of that sort which Mould be of great 
 benefit to a London man. We also urge that, as in the case of Sundays, 
 the time or pay given in lieu ought to be at an incres.-d rate, and we would 
 ask this Committee to recommend that a full day be given to tlie ].,ondon 
 men for time worked on Bank Holidays. 
 
 SATURDAY HALF-HOLIDAY. 
 
 We hail with delight !Mr. Morley's concession of Saturday half-holiday, 
 and would be glad if the principle were extended to every part of the 
 country. We think, however, the condition laid down b}' the late Postmas- 
 ter-Greneral, " that the local town or county council signified its approval of 
 one of the Saturday afternoon deliveries being suspended," might, without 
 fear of causing any serious inconvenience to the public, be deleted. Many 
 of us have vivid recollections of all the barriers that were placed in the way 
 of suspending deliveries on Bank Holidays. The idea was absurd — could not 
 be entertained — the public would not submit to it— business would be brought 
 t<5 a standstill next day — and so on ad infinitum. I myself have worked 
 from early morning till late at night on Bank Holidays, when there was 
 no relief whatever. In spite, however, of all these gloomy prophecies, we 
 have obtained Bank Holiday relief, and plenty of it. especially since the 
 Department undertook to pay us extra for work on those days. And the 
 Department did not ask town or county council to signify their approval 
 before making the concession. They simply ordered it by one Depart- 
 mental coup, and never a murmur was raissd, and tlie public fell imperceji 
 tibly into the the ways of the Department. The main objection to extend- 
 ing this relief to Liverpool was that American mails frefjuently arrive on 
 Saturday evenings, and that as a consequence of suspending one or two 
 evening deliveries the public would suffer the inconvenience of delay in the 
 delivery of important business correspondence till the following morning. 
 But these mails arrive during the day on Bank Holidays, and there is no 
 serious complaint at the public not getting their letters on those days — 
 notwithstanding that the delay is much greater than it would be on 
 Saturdays. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: I suppose that on Bank Holidays all the offices are closed, 
 are they not? 
 
 A. The same applies to Saturday afternoons, sir. 
 
 Q. But if an office is expecting correspondence by the American mail, 
 they would not close ? Would they not wait for it on Saturdays ? 
 
 A. I think they would ; and the same would apply to Bank Holidays, 
 if they knew they could get the letters. But knowing they cannot get 
 them they do not wait. Every one of these barriers raised is a barrier of 
 gauze the colour of iron, which will be no let to our progress if only the 
 Department will march abreast of us. We ask you also to consider the
 
 Hours of Duty — Saturday Half- Holiday. 281 
 
 ripening of public opinion and the recent attempts at Parliamentary legis- 
 lation in your determinations. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It is a fact, is it not, that when the postmen applied at 
 Liverpool for this relief on Saturday afternoon, we referred it to the local 
 authorities ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it is a fact. 
 
 Q. And we asked tliem whether there was any objection locally to our 
 giving you the boon asked for ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and most of the local authorities were agreeable to it. It 
 was only when some one brought pressure to bear on the Chamber of Com- 
 merce that that body used its influence to prevent the Town Council deciding 
 in our favour. 
 
 Q. Do you tliink that the Department should override the wishes of the 
 local authorities? 
 
 A. It does not consult them in many cases ; it is only in a case like this 
 that it does so. In the case of Bank Holidays it certamly did not question 
 tliem. 
 
 SPECIAL LEAVE. 
 
 By this we mean leave requested for a day or part thereof. You have 
 been told of the terrible nature of the work at such offices as Liverpool — 
 how that work lias put, and is putting, men into their graves — and here I 
 must corroborate everything told you by my colleague, Mr. Walsli — a man 
 of the highest personal integrity in tlie office, and whom I have never known 
 to be capable of even the shadow of an untruth — who is known at Liver- 
 pool by the name of "Honest John." I knew Postman IClliott, wliom Mr. 
 Walsh referred to, well. In reference to this case I should like to make a 
 remark or two. (To Mr. Walpole) I heard what you said to Mr. Walsh 
 the other day. As a matter of fact, although I knew that, at the last, 
 there was a complication of influenza, and, finally, of bronchitis, that was 
 only the beginning of tl e end. I knew that he ha<l been failing a long time 
 before the influenz;i set in, and his sister told me that liis work was killing 
 him. He used to come home in a very exhausted condition, and he had been 
 for a long time in a very low state. 
 
 Q. You knew his sister? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: It has also been stated that he had heart trouble? 
 
 A. Yes, it was so stated ; but that also was a later development. He 
 had been bad for a very long time by reason of tlie difficulties of his work ; 
 all these were later developments. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You know tliat he actually went on duty against the advice 
 of the medical officer after he had had an attack of influenza? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, I believe it was so. Seventeen years ago I worked with him 
 side by side on the same walk. I knew him then to be in robust health, 
 and to be a man who husbanded that health, as he did — ^as far as he could 
 under the wretched conditions of his ^^•()rk — until the day of his death. 
 All that his sister told Mr. Walsh she told me. She said that her brother 
 liad been worked unto death in the Liverpool Post Office. I can also testify 
 to what was said about the nuTuber of men it has taken to perform the 
 work of one on the heavy walks of Liverpool. I liave had a short ex- 
 perience of walks of this nature. All this has been put before you vividly, 
 accurately, and trutlifidly. therefore I need not trouble you with reiteration. 
 But I will furtlier point out that our work is very confining in nature — 
 that we liave not that libert}'' to absent ourselves for a day or part thereof 
 enjoyed by others, and by artisans in particular. We are finite satisfied 
 that the nature of our emplovment could never admit that liberty ; yet we 
 are of opinion that, provided a man is prepared to pay for qualified sub- 
 stitution, no obstacle ought to be thrown in his way by the Department. 
 Instead of which we have to complain of the inordinately inquisitive in-
 
 282 Steimikn Dowmn<;, Liverpool. 
 
 quiries made by some supervising officers before they allow a postman to 
 have his work performed by a deputy — even for one hour. Men at Windsor, 
 for example, have been repeatedly and persistently refused leave for a small 
 portion of the day, and have been told this is a rule of tlie Service. One 
 man at that oflice was refused leave in this way, although it was asked for 
 the purpose of firing his class, he being a nienil>er of the Windsor Volun- 
 teers. His Postmaster informed him he would never get such leave from 
 him (the Postmaster) if he (the jwstman) were under him for 20 years. We 
 submit that the time has arrived when such arbitrary power should be taken 
 out of the hands of Postmasters, and some definite ruling laid down in its 
 stead. The members of the Liverpool Police force have one day's special 
 leave every fortnight. In the United States a jjostman may take a day's 
 leave at any time by simply providing a deputy. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : You understand that the decision must eventually rest 
 with the local Postmaster? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I think so. 
 
 Q. Y''ou could not refer it to the head office, or even to a district office? 
 
 A. No, sir ; but you might have some definite ruling on the point for 
 the guidance of Postmasters. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you think it is a fact that Postmasters do throw un- 
 necessary obstacles in the way of special leave? 
 
 A. In the case I have ?dduced it was done. I know that veiy frefiuently 
 the supervising officers have made inquisitive inquiries which are quite 
 unnecessary. 
 
 Q. In your own experience have you ever had occasion wlien you have 
 been refused special leave unfairly? 
 
 A. I have been frequently asked when I have been taking leave — even 
 for an hour or two — what I required it for? 
 
 Q. And you think that is unreasonable? 
 
 A. I do, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you happen to know on how many occasions in 1894 and 1895, 
 up to the 31st of March in tlie latter year, you yourself were granted special 
 leave ? 
 
 A. I am not complaining now about tliat. 
 
 Q. But I am asking about it, and I want to get at the facts. 
 
 A. I am not complaining specially about the Liverpool office ; I know 
 there are a great many smaller tov\ais worse than that. 
 
 Q. But I want an example in the other direction, and I therefore ask 
 you how many times you have been granted special leave? 
 
 A. I myself have had a great many special leaves. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that you were granted it on 10 separate occasions in 
 one year? 
 
 A. Possibly, sir, but mostly for work in connection with our Federation. 
 
 Q. In the present year, which has not lasted very long, is it not a fact 
 that at the end of January you applied for three days' leave to be able to deal 
 \Mth your correspondence? I do not mean the letters you deliver, but your 
 own correspondence, which you said had assumed proportions quite in 
 excess of your anticipations? Were you not granted that special leave? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and when I have applied for anything in connection with 
 the Federation every facility has been placed in my way. I have nothing to 
 complain of in that regard. What I am complaining of is that when a man 
 merely wants to make an exchange of duties, he is asked the reason for it. 
 That has occurred at Liverpool, and the rule has been really irritating to 
 the men. They may have wanted to get free for a night, and I do not 
 think that inquiries of that nature should be made. 
 
 Q. But how is it irrit^iting? Is it irritating because a man who is asking 
 special leave which upsets the work of the Department is required to state 
 why he wants to go away? 
 
 A. But he provides a qualified substitute, and so it would not upset the 
 special work of the Department.
 
 Hours of^Duty — Holidays aud Casual Leave. 283 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Tlien you would suggest that whenever a man desires 
 to take part of a day as special leave, he should 1)6 allowed to do so if he 
 provides a substitute? 
 
 A. Provided that it does not occur too often. I do not think I should 
 have been allowed anything like the liberty I have had in that respect if 
 I had wanted it for any other reason than to attend to the work of the 
 Federation. 
 
 Q. But is not that a very good reason for asking what the special leave 
 is wanted for? 
 
 A. There might be some reasons quite as important to a man and his 
 family as attending a Federation meeting. 
 
 Q. And you object to be asked for those reasons? 
 
 A. There are many private reasons a man would not care to stiite on 
 paper ; indeed, some of them would almost look ridiculous. 
 
 Air. Walpole : But people in a much higher class than that in which you 
 yourself live are accustomed to state the reasons for which they are asking 
 Kjx'cial leave. 
 
 A. I am not aware of that, sir. I think the inquiries are unnecessary in 
 the cases I am deiiling with. If a man reijuires a change of duty, and can 
 eifect an ordinary exchange, I do not see why he sliould l)e a.sked to state 
 what he wants that exchange for. He is not putting the Department to any 
 inconvenience, because he is prob ibly exch inging it with the officer who 
 rotfites with him on that particular duty, and who will consequently \>c agree- 
 able to take it for him. 
 
 The Chairman : Thaidv vou. 
 
 \Yitni:ss : I tliauk the Committee very much for the patience witli which 
 they have heard me.
 
 ZAGHARIAH HOWE, Sheffield. 
 
 AnxiLiAKiKs' Cam:. 
 
 Za<;liariali Howe, of Sliertitjld, wits the next witness called. 
 
 The Chairman : You are a Sheffield postman, are you not? 
 
 A. I am, my lord. 
 
 Q. You are an auxilLiry now, are you? 
 
 A. Yes, 1 am. 
 
 Q. How long have you been an auxiliary postman? 
 
 A. 24 years next March. 
 
 Q. And what otlier occupation have you followed? 
 
 A. I am a small shopkeLj^r, sir. By trade I am a bru.sh-maker. 
 
 Q. Then you have three methods <if earning a livelihood at this moment? 
 
 A. My wife looks ai'ter the shop. It is a small hosier's, dra{)er's, and 
 fancy stuff business. 
 
 Q. And you make brushes? 
 
 A. I have been out of employment in regard to brushes these 10 years. 
 
 Q. And not carried on your trade at all? 
 
 A. I have not carried on my trade at all simplj^ because I could not get 
 ^^ork. I worked for one firm in Sheffield over 20 years, but foreign com- 
 petition and the importation of foreign goods has spoilt the brush-making 
 industry, and I have had to get a living as best I can. 
 
 Q. Did you carry on the brush-making, when you ha^ it, at your own 
 house? 
 
 A. JsTo, sir ; at my employer's. 
 
 Q. How did that tit in with your Post Office work? 
 
 A., It iitted in very well. I had nothing to complain of. 
 
 Q. What time used you to be employed on this occupation? 
 
 A. When I first joined as an auxiliary the work went by seniority, 
 "which, I may say. gave great .satisfaction to the auxiliaries at Sheffield. 
 When 1 first joined I liad allotted to me the first morning delivery at 9s. 
 for seven days. Then there was a collection which the auxiliaries were 
 allowed to do. They were i)aid at that time practicalh' by piece work. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : How long did the morning delivery take? 
 
 A. From 5 to 3^ hours. From 6 o'clock till 9 or 9.15. Then if I did 
 a collection I had 3s. a week, which brought my wages up to 12s.. and if 
 two collections I had 3s. for each, and got thus l'5s. a week. 
 
 Q. So for the delivery you got only 9s. a week? 
 
 A. Y'es. 
 
 Q. At what hour did you get to the brush factory? 
 
 A. After 9, when I had done my delivery ; I used to be at work between 
 9 and 10. As my seniority went on I got collections, one at first, and then 
 two — the 6 and 8 o'clock collections at night. Practically I worked at the 
 brush factory from between 9 and 10 in the morning till nearly 6 at night. 
 I found my occupation on the delivery very beneficial. 
 
 Q. Y'ou were practically receiving ISs. a week? 
 
 A. At that time I was, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : What particular point do you wish to speak about? 
 
 A. Well, if you have no objection, my lord, I would like to give my own 
 experience as an auxiliary with regard to the rise and fall of wages. In 
 March, 1872, I joined as an auxiliary, working from 3 to 3^ hours per day 
 for seven days, or 25 hours per week (about) at 4|d. per hour. I had also 
 a collection at 3s. a week ; tliat brought it to 4^d. an hour. In doing two 
 together I had 41^ hours for 15s. a week, equal to 4^. per hour. Speaking 
 from memory, in 1874 or 1875 — as a result of a petition — we got a shilling 
 extra per week for the delivery and a shilling for the collection, thus bring-
 
 Auxiliaries and Sunday Duty. 285 
 
 ing the pay for the 41^ hours occupied in the delivery and collections to 
 5^d. per hour. At that time I had the morning delivery at 10s., and two 
 collections at 4s. each, making 18s. a week. After the morning delivery I 
 used to go to work until 6 o'clock at night, and then do the two collections. 
 I thus had a lapse of from 8 to 9 hours for other employment. In the 
 spring of 1887 the Ridley Commission sat at 2 Victoria Street, London, S.W. 
 A correspondence sprung up in a number of towns throughout the country 
 with regard to our contentions. We in Sheffield did not consider ourselves 
 so badly paid, but our grievances were — ^no stripes. Sunday duty all the year 
 round, no holidays, no pay for overtime, and no boot allowance. In 1889 
 an anomalous revision took placj, and, speaking from my own experience, 
 if I could have obtained other employment I would have left the Service. 
 It was what we older men termed, when talking to one another, an Irish 
 revision. It meant more work and less money. There are only two of us 
 left who were in the Service then. 
 
 The Chairman : You mean, of course, at Sheffield ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. It drove all who had other em|)loyment — and they were 
 the best of the men — out of tlie Sarvice. And how we were cajoled by 
 our superior officers — the superintendents — to join tlie established class I 
 will point out. We were havmg 18s. a week at S^d. per hour — and this is 
 an anomaly, sir — four men were now paid 14.s. a week, and the remainder 
 12s., all, however, doing the same work— six hours per da}^ as formerly. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean that all the men were doing the same work? 
 
 A. I mean that those who had i4s. were doing the same work as those 
 who had 12s. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : You say that it meant more work and less pay? 
 
 A. It meiint that we still had ihe same work to do — the morning and mid- 
 day deliveries, and one collection, for les.s pay. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Who were the four men? 
 
 A. I cannot tell. 
 
 Q. Are they in the Service still? 
 
 A. No, sir. I wrote to Sheffield for the information, but have not re- 
 ceived it. I can vouch for it that they were all doing tlie same duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Didut yoii say yttu were enticed to join the estiiblish- 
 nit'ut? 
 
 A. I will explain that as I go on. Our duties were at this time, as I 
 liave said, the moi-ning delivery of two or three hours, and the collections at 
 night, t'jus leaving every facility for other employment. Then we got a 
 reduction of wages. As near as I can remember 
 
 Mr. Wal{M)le : What do you mean by the eslabli.'<hed class? 
 
 A. The established class of postmen. 
 
 The. Chairman : You did not join it? 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: You resisted the cajolement? 
 
 A. No ; listen to me, sir. How they j>ersuaded us to join the estab- 
 lished class 
 
 Sir A. Godley : Tried to persuade you? 
 
 A. They took the men, from the senior auxiliaries downwards, and asked 
 them to join the establisliment. I will give you the names and length of 
 service as near as I can. Heni-y Hall, 49 years of age 21 years' service. I 
 believe the Department lately had his case under consideration ; what deci- 
 sion they have come to I am not in possession of.* Arthur Ouseley, 50 
 years of age, 21 years' service ; Z. Howe (myself), 51 years of age, 17 years' 
 service ; and G. Stanyard, 46 years of age, 14 years' service. We were all 
 solicited to join the establishment. I was asked, and at first consented, 
 but went home and reconsidered it. I well weighed the matter up with my 
 wife, and decided not to join. I wrote thanking them for their kind offer, 
 
 * Hen y Hall has sin e received a full appointinent and flO ii.'Krk pay, apj) oint- 
 ment to date back to the revi&ion of 1889.
 
 286 Zaciiaiuaii JIowi:, Slicilield. 
 
 and declined ou the ground of age. Tlie superintendent and other officials 
 again solicited me. 1 was taken Injfore the Postmaster, exi)lained to him my 
 age, and, more than that, told him it was not a fair birgain. That was the 
 ground for my declining. After putting in 17 years' service to be asked 
 to go on the established class as a new entnint, I thought was not a fair 
 bargain; 1 was being imjustly dealt Mith, and that 1 would try to seek 
 occupation in other ways. If 1 could have found other employment 1 should 
 have left the Service. 
 
 Mr. VValpole : No constraint was put upon you to join? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then 1 do not know wliat you mean by being cajoled? 
 
 A. I will tell you. We all four said we were too old.. I said, "I beg your 
 pardon, 1 was above the age when I joined ; I shall not get in.' The 
 Postmaster replied, " Oh, yes, you will. ' 1 was flattered at their opinion 
 of my ability. All the years 1 had been in the Service I had never ex- 
 perienced such ilattery. 1 would not have believed it. That was the kind 
 of cajoling that was done to bring us in*^o the Service. I asked, "If i 
 am refused shall I forfeit my seiiiority in the ;-.uxiIiary class?" "No," was 
 the answer. Now. as auxiliaries, we considered that by seniority we had 
 the choice of duties and collections. We considered that a great favour. 
 For years 1 liad Ijeen striving to get two collections. Tiie then SheflBeld 
 Postmaster said to me, " No, Howe, I don't see why you should." I said, 
 " Wliat about the pension?' He said. '"I will do all 1 can to help you 
 to get your former time to count." That wa-s 17 years. Well, gentlemen, 
 we all four laid our cases l>efore the Dep irtiiient, and we were refused. 
 Ouseley, since deceased, was one who was refused. We were kept doing full 
 duty for a few weeks. I cannot say from memory Iiow long we were kept 
 doing full duty. As unestablished town postmen we had 18s. per week, no 
 holiday, no increment, no sick pay, and no boot allowance. I asked to be 
 replaced, and to take my seniority as an auxiliary, but they refused me. 
 Then I was askeil if I would be removed to Hillsborough. I strongly ob- 
 jected, and said, "Let it go by ?;eniority." Ultimately another man ac- 
 cepted. I could nut see sacriticing m\' liome and business. 
 
 The Chaiiiiiaii : 1 tliiiik ynu are ratlier dealing too much with your own 
 case. 
 
 Witness: I was put bick as an auxiliarj* at I2s. a week, and forfeited 
 seniority. I strongly ol)jected, as it gave me no facility for other employ- 
 ment. I was asked to sign a document. I at first objected. I asked the 
 superintendent if there was any possibility of being replaced senior at 14s. 
 He distinctly said, "No." Ulthnately I had to sign what we call " tlie 
 piece of blue " for 12s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Smith : When did you have to sign that? 
 
 A. I am speaking of 1889. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You signed something of that kind six years ago? 
 
 A. Yes ; I do not think those papers liare been introduced long. 
 
 Q. But you signed it yourself in 1839? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then it was introduced before 1889? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You said you were restored at 12s. a week. Your present wages are 
 14s., are they not? 
 
 A. Yes ; 1 will explain that. A change of Postmaster took place in 1881, 
 from Mr. Mawson to Mr. Stephenson. In 1892 the first opportunity I had 
 with Mr. Stephenson, who is now at Newcastle-on-Tyne, I explained to him 
 my position. He remarked that he would take up my case for me and 
 lielp me. On June 27th, 1892, we were all placed on an equal wage of 14s. 
 per week. I asked Mr. Stephenson, "Wliat about my back i)ay?" He said, 
 " Howe, I cannot assist you. I was not in Sheffield at the time ; I was 
 not Postmaster." Thus I lost about £15 through being solicited by my 
 superior officers to join the established class. I tried in vain to get my
 
 Auxiliaries and Sunday Duty. 287 
 
 case through the official channel. This is what occurred among the auxil- 
 iaries. Wnen you offend a superior officer it is a losing game. It is like 
 running your liead agiiinst a orick wall. You <!on't know where it will 
 end. I think from my own experience of such anomalies as this cropping 
 up that the executive of the Federation should be accepted as the cliann«l of 
 communication. I have snid that in 1887 a Royal Commission sat at 2 
 Victoria Street, and that tliis brought about a correspondence in many 
 towns throughout the country. I have tlie correspondence here. 
 
 The Cliairman : I think we will not go into that. We had better come 
 to the cise of the provincial auxiliaries, I want to get on with your evidence. 
 Witness : In presenting for your consideration the case of the auxiliary 
 postmen in the provinces. I sliould mention that I am an auxiliary at Shef- 
 field of 24 j'ears" service, and would preface the matter that I have to 
 present to you by the remark that discontent has prevailed amongst this 
 class ever since 1 entered the Service, and I have no doubt many years pre- 
 viously, as I found it existed upon my entry. I would further point out 
 that in spite of rejjeated attempts to obtain reform on our part, we are in 
 a worse condition to-day than we were some 21 years ago. At tl)e time 
 wlien the Ridley Comnussicn was appointed, hope entered our breasts that 
 an opportunity had arisen to have our case tried upon its merits, and witli 
 this object in view an amalgamition was attempted between Newcastle, 
 York, Leeds, Bradford, Hull, Nottingham, Derby, Leicester, Birmingham. 
 and Sheffield, for the purpose of electing and sending a representative before 
 the Ridley Commission, but, unfortunately for us, the labours of that Com- 
 mission ended before reaching the Post Office, thus was hope once more 
 banished from our heart.s. The points I wish to speak on are: — 1st. — The 
 irregular rate of payment adopted towards this class throughout the country. 
 2nd. — The uncertain and undefined method of promotion to the ranks of the 
 established class. 3i-d. — The custom of requiring Sunday labour from a large 
 proportion of the auxiliary class without any payment for the same. 4th. — 
 The a])sence of participation in any of the contingent advantages of the 
 established clas.s, such as holidays, sick piy, stripes, and boot allowance. 
 The first point to be considered, viz.: — The irregidar rate of payment 
 adopted for work of tlie same class and imporfcmce tends to breed discontent 
 amongst the ranks of the auxiliary class, and ])laces a severe strain upon the 
 discipline so neces.sary in an establishment Idie the Post Office ; as, when 
 men in some towns gain the knowledge that for exactly the same nature 
 and length of time occupied in the work performed they are paid at a less 
 rate than their confreres in other towns, this feelmg of discontent must 
 naturally arise. When it is pointed out that the rate of pay per hour for 
 this class of Post Office servants only reaches an average throughout the 
 country of 4id. per hour, and when the responsible nature of the work entrusted 
 to them is taken into consideration, and the fact that no matter how many 
 years' service they devote to tlie Department as auxiliaries, they receive no in- 
 cre«ise in their wages, it cannot \>e considered an extravagant request to ask 
 that the minimum rate of pny l)e 6d. per hour from 5 a.m. to 9 p.m., and 
 from 9 p.m. to midniglit, 8il. per hour, and from midnight to 5 a.m., 9d. 
 per hour, as these latter jx^riods are night work, and should be paid at a 
 higher rate than day work, as is the custom in all callings, trades, etc. I 
 have already spoken of the anomalies with regard to tlie pay of the aux- 
 iliaries. In Cambridge there are four men during tlie College term who 
 are putting in seven attendances, and working from 9j to 10 hours a day 
 for 19s. a week. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Seven attendances ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are all those men you refer to auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Yes ; they are auxiliary postmen, employed during the College term. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: For from 9 to 10 hours a day? 
 
 A. Yes. 9i hours is the lowest, and 10 hours is the highest. They are
 
 2H-i ZAtiiAiaAH IIowK, .Shellield. 
 
 on first at 6.45 a.m., and at night until 8.45 or 9. I will give you the 
 attendances:— 5.30 to 8.30, 9.15 1o 10.45, 12.30 to 1.20, 2.30 to 3.30, 4.15 
 to 5.30, 6 to 7.10, and 7.15 to 8.45. Tliis is during tlie term, which last*, 
 I believe, 32 weeks. Thus four auxiliaries working 229i hours, at 4d. per 
 hour, eiirn between them the weekly wage of £3 16s. The same men during 
 tht vacation at Cambridge do one collectiou and one delivery. The delivery 
 is 6.30 to 8.30, and tlie collection is 6 to 7.10 p.m. 
 The Chairman: And what do they get for tint? 
 
 A. 10s. a week. Between them they put in 78^ hours, and the wages work 
 out at 6id. per hour. Here is an anom ily. During the vacation they get 
 6id. per hour, and during the term, when the heavy strain is put upon 
 them, they only get 4d. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : During the vacation tliey only have one delivery and one 
 collection? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, for 10s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Smith: Do you know liow they fill up their time on the vacation? 
 A. I do not know, sii- ; but from the correspondence I sheuld siy they 
 have nothing to do. They complain very much about that. 
 Q. But they have something to do. 
 A. Well, tiiese men have not. 
 Q. How do they spend their time? 
 A. Sit at home, I suppose. 
 
 Q. Thoy have to certify that they have something to do? 
 A. From the correspondence which reaches me I judge that they have 
 nothing to do. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you think that they have signed the blue form ? 
 A. I hnve not asked that question. I have not the correspondence here, 
 but the men complain of the low rate drawn by the auxiliary as compared 
 with the established class. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I have just been informed that the rule requiring auxiliaries 
 to liave other employment has not been applied outside London. 
 
 Witness: That is so. I will touch ujion thit later on. I believe that at 
 least 75 per cent, of the present auxiliaries, earning 12s. or 14s. per week, 
 depend entirely on their income from the Department. In SheflBeld, for 
 instance, but one other man to my knowledge does anything else for a 
 living. The older men were driven out us I have explained by the revision. 
 
 In Windsoi' 
 
 The Chairman : Is this blue paper signed by the auxiliaries in the pro- 
 vhices now? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you sure of that? 
 
 A. I had a copy of what was sent to the postmen at Sheffield. I was 
 not aware that we could write to the Postmaster for information or I 
 should have been writing to them all up and down the country — (laughter) — 
 I thought such action would have been treated as insubordination. I have 
 at home a copy of the letter I sent to the Postmaster asking for a copy of 
 the document which I signed. 
 
 Q. You mean the one the auxiliaries have now to sign in the provinces? 
 A. He sent this one to me as the one I had signed. 
 (Document handed in.) 
 
 Q. Is it the one that has to be signed now? 
 
 A. It is a long time since I joined. The last one I signed was in 1889. 
 The Chairman (to Mr. Mackren) : Do you know if this is the form the 
 auxiliary postmen have to sign in the provinces now? 
 
 Mr. ]\Iaclaren : I don't know. I have been appointed for seven year.5. 
 Mr. Smith : I am told it is practically the same thing. 
 
 Witness : In Windsor there are three auxiliaries, who work the duties by 
 rotation. These duties start at midnight. The first is 12 to 1.45. 6.15 to 
 9.15 a.m.. 6 to 8 p.m.. and 8.45 till 11 — 9 hours per day. The quesUon is — 
 when does the man who does that duty get his sleep? The second duty is
 
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 Auxiliaries and Sunday Duty. 289 
 
 12 to 1.30, 10 to 12.15, 6 to 8.10, and 8.45 to 9.45. This man pats in 6 
 hours 55 minutes per day. 
 
 The Chairman : Is that at Windsor ? 
 
 A. Yes. There are three duties on which the men rotate. The third 
 duty is 6 to 9 a.m., 10.20 to 11.10, and 6 to 8.15. That represents 6 hours 
 5 minutes, whereas the first duty is 9 hours. But it is spread over about 14 
 hours. All these are done at 15s. a week ; thus, 132 hours per week at 
 4^d. per hour gives the total wages of the three men, viz., £2 5s. per veek. 
 But in addition I have another anomaly which exists at Windsor, aril has 
 done so for many years, according to my correspondents. A. Young, a 
 rural auxiliary, works from 6 till 10, four hours on the morning delivery, 
 doing 24 hours per week for 9s., or 4id. per hour. In addition to that, 
 during the College term he is called upon to assist with the duty from 6 
 to 8.30 p.m., for which he receives no pay. I received tliis last August. The 
 statement is, that in 1893 he thus worked 174 days ; in 1894, 234 days ; 
 and up to August, 1895, he had put in 139 days, or a total of 547 days, at 
 two hour.s per day, representing 1094 hours, or 22 weeks 4 da;, s and 5 
 hours at 8 hours per day, for which he has received no pay. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Why does he do it? 
 
 A. He does it under pressure. 
 
 Q. What is the man's name? 
 
 A. A. Young. Since I have been in London, I wrote to know if tliis 
 existed now, and they have sent me word, "Yes, it does." 
 
 The Chairman : Is there not a fixed rate acknowledged by the Department 
 for provincial auxiliaries in the same way as in London? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I wish there was. That is what we are fighting for, of 
 course. I have given you two college towns. I will now take the case of 
 a third. Men at Oxford are receiving S^d. per hour on the average. Tlie 
 letters sent to me say how satisfied they are as things are going on, com- 
 pared with the case of their brethren at Cambridge and Windsor. The 
 only complaint from Oxford is that they have to work 1^ hours on Sunday. 
 That is the principal complaint. They are getting near on 6d. per hour. 
 
 The Chairman : Is that including the Sunday duty ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Do you say they are not paid for working on Sundays? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I will toucli upon that presently. Another anomaly exists 
 at Ramsgate. Tlie first duty is 5.30 to 7.30 — a two hours' duty with one 
 attendance. For this the wages are 6s., or 6d. per hour. Next there ara 
 two duties combined, 6.30 to 8.30, and 5.30 to 7.30, or four liours at 13s. 
 per week. Here comes in the anomaly. There are four men, two of them 
 doing the duties I liave namerl. Then tliere is an intermediate dutv during 
 tile day: one from 9.30 to 12.30, and the other from 3.15 to 5.30. The men 
 who do all these duties have 13 hours a day ; while still another duty from 
 11.15 to 1.30 brings it up to 13^ hours per day. The two men wlio do these 
 identical duties get a reduced pay of 4^\d. per hour. Thus, the more 
 bone and sinew you give to the Department, the less wages you receive. 
 For another duty a man receives 14s., or 4^d. per hour. These are ano- 
 malies whicli exist, and which cause great discontent. The next case I 
 must allude to is that of Warrington. Here the men have greater facilities 
 for other employment than any town I can name, and I think I have had 
 from 200 to 300 papers submitted to me. 
 
 The Chairman : How is it they get those facilities ? 
 
 A. I cannot tell you that. I have not been there. 
 
 Q. Can you tell u.s in what particular trade they are employed? 
 
 A. It used to be pin manufacture when I was a lad. At school we 
 were tauglit. "Warrington for pins." Now I will give you another anomaly. 
 There is a man named Ashbrook doing duty at Warrington from 6.30 to 
 8.30 p.m., at 8s. per week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is 8d. per hour. 
 
 A. That is where the anomaly comes in. 
 K
 
 290 Zachariah Howe, Sheffield. 
 
 Q. Is it not an anomaly on the right side? 
 
 A. Yes ; but, according to the correspoudence I have received — and I had 
 some only this morning — there are four other men doing the delivery from 
 
 6 to 9 a.m. and receiving 9s. per week, or 6d. jaer hour. Then tliere are 
 six men doing the two deliveries together for 12s. a week, and you thus 
 -see, my lord, that for doing them jointly they get only 4|d. per hour, 
 while when they are separated for one the men get 6d., and for the other 8d. 
 per hour. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am afraid these are ai'omalies you had not better draw 
 attention to. 
 
 Witness : They are pointed out to me in the letters I have received. 
 
 Q. Apparently in the cases of the separate deliveries we are giving much 
 too much. 
 
 Witness : Next I come to Shrewsbury. There are three duties of, 7.45 
 to 9.16, 10.45 to 11.50, 4.10 to 5, amf 6 to 9 p.m., involving four atten- 
 dances, 14s. per week. There are other duties, 6 to 9, 10.40 to 11.50, and 
 
 7 to 8.15, for 12s. per week, and there are six duties from 6 to 9, and 10 
 to 11, at 9s. per week. This is the nearest approach to the case of men 
 working in one town for a similar wage. The three men at 14s. a week 
 get 4|d. per hour ; the two at 12s., 4|d., and the six at 9s., 4|d. per hour. 
 I will not trouble you with any more anomalies. But there are several 
 towns, as I have pointed out, where auxiliaries do intermediate work or other 
 service. I admit there are some towns where the man can do work outside 
 the office, but I may instance the case of the Sheffield duties, and ask where 
 a man under this revision has a chance to earn anything outside Whatever. 
 In .some towns — in Southport, Leeds, and a few other towns, there is a 
 lapse of six or seven hours per day, but there are not many like that. 
 There are several towns where the duties are arranged as at Sheffield, where 
 the auxiliaries are called upon at all hours of the day. This is an argu- 
 ment why the auxiliaries should be drafted into the established class. As 
 an auxiliary myself of many years' standing, I look upon it that if you call 
 upon me to do a day's delivery I should be drafted into the established class. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you any claim for any particular rate of wages to 
 put forward? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, 6d. per hour. But before I proceed to deal with that, 
 I wish to give some anomalies as to Sunday pay. I believe it was stated 
 the other day you could hardly credit that men put in three or four atten- 
 dances for 12s. and 14s. a week. Now here is the case of Berkhamsted, 
 where men put in four attendances for 12s. and 14s. a week. Again at 
 Sheffield, a rural auxiliary Ls working for 12s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What is his name? 
 
 A. Mappin. He is in the same office as myself. He takes his delivery 
 into the coimtry and returns with a collection, and I caiinot see why men, 
 living in the same town, and doing practically the same work, should not 
 have the same compensation. G. Mappin had been a telegraph messenger. 
 
 Mr. Smith You say he is a rural auxiliary? 
 
 A. Yes, at 12s. per week. He is due at the office at 6 o'clock. He goes 
 into the country to deliver, and gets back at 12 o'clock. On Sundays his 
 duty is from 6 to 11. That goes on all the year round, and he gets no 
 pay for the Sunday duty. He does not get a day's holiday in the year. 
 He does every week 41 hours at 3|d. per hour. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you know that the man is employed on Sundaj'S 
 without pay? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are you sure about it? 
 
 A. Yes. I should only be too glad if he were paid. It would make a 
 great difference to the Exchequer if every one were paid. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: How old is this man who was a telegraph messenger? 
 
 A. 19 years of age. 
 
 Q. Then he has just been put on the duty?
 
 Auxiliaries anol Sunday Duty. 291 
 
 A. No ; lie lias been on the duty some time. He states that lie lias b€en 
 five years and six months in the Service. 
 
 Q. Very Ukely, as a telegraph messenger. 
 
 A. He was a telegraph messenger, but now he is a rural auxiliary. 
 
 Q. If he is only 19 years of age, he cannot liave been auxiliary 5 years. 
 
 A. He has given up his telegraph uniform. 
 
 Su' F. Mowatt : Is it not a fact — as I am assured it is — ^that the wages 
 aro fixed to include Sunday work? If a man does no Sunday work he gets 
 less ; if he does he gets more ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I can prove to the contrary. 
 
 Q. Is not 7s. a week for 6 days, and 8s. per week for 7 days, including 
 Sunday? The authorised iiile is that a provincial auxiliary occupied on one 
 duty for three hours shall receive 7s. per week if employed 6 days, and 8s. 
 per week if employed 7 days? 
 
 A. I can prove very different to that, my lord, by the papers which have 
 been sent in to me. 
 
 The Chairman : How about Sheffield ? 
 
 A. That is, I believe, the only town in the country where the men for 
 Sunday duties receive Is. 6d. I believe other towns have petitioned for it. 
 I believe that last September the Southport men petitioned their Post- 
 master and they got it. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of any cases of men who are doing Sunday duty getting 
 the same wage as men who do no Sunday duty, and both doing similar 
 duty in the week, getting the same rate of wages? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Smith: They must be paid for Sunday duty then? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you, of your own laiowlodge, know any cases of 
 men doing the same duties on week days, but one doing Sunday duty also 
 and the other not, receiving the same wages? 
 
 A. I should think I could pomt out cases in different towns. 
 
 The Chairman : Very well, point out a case then. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In different towns the rates of pay may possibly differ. 
 
 Witness : There are auxiliaries in Sheffield getting 10s. a week and Is. 6d. 
 for Sunday duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Then they do get paid for Sunday duty? 
 
 A. I believe Sheffield is the only town in the country that got Sunday 
 pay at the time of the revision. When we got a new Postmaster he wanted 
 to know how it was that the auxiliaries were paid for Sumhiy duty. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Can you give me the name of any toAvn where tliev are not 
 paid ? 
 
 Witness : I could have brought you dozens. I have given you the case of 
 Oxford. 
 
 The Ciiairman : The postmen there said that their wages were good ; 
 the only difficulty was that they had to do an hear an a half's duty on 
 Sunday without pay. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you, from your Oxford inforination, give us the case of two men, 
 one of whom does duty on Sundays and the other does not, who receive 
 the same pay? 
 
 A. Two men receive 12s. doing Sunday duty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Sir F. Mowatt suggests I should state what I know the 
 rule to be. It is that in fixing the remuneration of the auxiliaries we always 
 take into consideration the Sunday duty as well as the week-day duty. 
 That is the rule of the office. 
 
 The Chairman : I see, even in this paper which you have handed in, that 
 
 at Oxford a man named Hallett gets a shilling extra for a Sunday collection. 
 
 A. But that is not a morning delivery, my lord. Collections are paid 
 
 for. I am speaking of deliveries which are not. Collections are generally 
 
 paid for. A man who does a morning delivery in Sheffield gets Is. 6d.
 
 292 Zachariah HuU'k, Sheffield. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume the Sheffield man is a substitute for an estab- 
 lished man. Is it not an established man's duty done by an auxiliary? 
 A. When is it an auxiliary duty? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I say that Irom the fact of its being paid for. I assume 
 it is the case of an auxiliary being substituted for an established man. 
 Would that not be the rule of the office ? 
 
 A. It would be for a collection. 
 
 The Cliairman : In the Oxford case is it not the complaint, not that the 
 men are not paid for Sundaj^ duty, but that they get nothing extra for it? 
 
 A. My claim is that six days shall constitute a week. 
 
 The Chairman : The men at Oxford are paid so nmch an hour for their 
 duty whether it be on Sundays or other daj's. Their complaint is that 
 they do not get anything extra for Sunday duty. 
 
 A. That is a general complaint, my lord. 
 
 Q. What do you ask they shall be paid extra for Sunday duty? 
 
 A. We ask the same as established men — ratio and a quarter. Some 
 time ago, I was following an established man in the work I did, and while 
 I received Is. 6d. for what I did on the Sunday, he got 2s. 9d. for it. 
 
 The Chairman : Then the complaint is not that you don't get paid for 
 Sur.day work, but that you only get paid at the same rate as on week-days? 
 
 A. In some towns the men are paid and in some they are not. We want 
 that six days shall constitute a week's work. 
 
 The Chairman : And that then any work on a Sunday shall be paid for, 
 not at the ordinary rate, but at rate-and-a-quarter ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. That is quite different from what you said at first. What you first 
 said was that you objected to not getting any pay at all. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I assure you there is Sunday pay, whether it be sufficient 
 or insufficient. Sunday work is taken into consideration when the pay is 
 fixed, and if a man has to work on Sundays that fact is considered. 
 
 The Cliairman : In Sheffield a man gets Is. 6d. extra for a Sunday deli- 
 very, and Is. for a Sunday collection, does he not? 
 
 A. Yes : and the auxiliaries do both. 
 
 Q. And get Is. and Is. M. resjjecdvely ? 
 
 A. Ves, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the case that the men who receive these payment' 
 are acting as substitutes for established men on tlieir alternative Sunday 
 leaves ? 
 
 A. I cannot answer that. You liav^ heard me speak about the Cambridge 
 men. They attend twice per day — 6.30 to 8.30, and 7.15 to 8.45: 3^ hours. 
 They have no pay on alternate Sundays. At Windsor they average 3^ 
 hours, and get no pay on alternate Sundays. 
 
 The Chairman : But these hours are counted in the weekly wage ? 
 
 A. We want them not to be counted. We want six days to constitute a 
 week's work. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Are you complaining that Sunday is included in the 
 wages? Do you want it excluded so that you may charge extra for it? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But you began by saying it was not included in the wages. We 
 have got it now that it is. 
 
 A. At Ramsgate they do 3 hours at 5d. per hour ; at another place thev 
 do Sj hours without pay, and at Shrewsbury they are on from 5 to 10. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, the Cambridge men, when the wages 
 were fixed, had Sunday duty every Sunday, had they not? 
 
 A. I do not know that. 
 
 Q. And since then their wages have not been altered, but they have been 
 relieved of duty every alternate Sunday? 
 
 A. I am not aware of that. 
 
 Q. And no reduction has been made in their wages? 
 
 A. I am not aware of that.
 
 Auxiliaries and Sunday Duty. 293 
 
 Q. Will you take it from ine that it is so? 
 
 A. Oh, yes. But, as I said, at Shrewsbury they do duty from 5 to 10 
 on Sundays and get no pay. At Bamett they do 2^ to 3 hours on Sundays 
 without pay. At Leeds they do 2 to 3 hours on Sundays alternately with- 
 out pay. And with regard to your argument, my lord 
 
 The Chairman : I am not arguing. I only want to arrive at the exact facts. 
 
 Witness : At Soutliport they work 3^ to 4 hours on one Sunday and 
 have pay. The next Sunday they have not. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think that on the Sunday they are paid they act as 
 substitutes for established men, while on the other Sunday they are working 
 as auxiliaries and doing their own duty. 
 
 A. We ask that we may be paid for all Sunday work. To emphasise 
 our claim for increased pay., we would jjoint out that 6d. per hour is the 
 minimum rate of wage almost universal throughout the country, which 
 is paid by corporations and municipal bodies to their lowest class of 
 labourer. Another reason why this rate of pay should be adopted is, that 
 the practice has grown to extend and spread many men's duties over such 
 a large proportion of the day that it is impossible for them to add to their 
 small wages in any other direction as they formerly could, and we suggest 
 that as, in the exigencies of the Service, it is necessary to employ a certain 
 amount of auxiliary labour, their duties should be apportioned to the morn- 
 ing and evening, and so abolish tlie erratic distribution of duties at present 
 in vogue. As an instance of the injustice done to the auxiliary by this cus- 
 tom of lengthened duties, I may refer to a cise in point, where a duty of 
 3 hours in the morning is paid 9s. per week for, and one in the evening of 
 2 hours is paid 8s. per week, when jserformed by two separate men (making 
 a total of I7s. per week for the two duties). When two similar duties are 
 combined and performed by one man he receives a wage of 12s. per week, 
 or 5s. less. Similar instances can be jjroduced from Ramsgate, thus show- 
 ing the necessity for a uniform i-ate of wage throughout the country ; and 
 we would furthermore urge that no interval of less than one hour between 
 duties be I'eckoned oft". In asking for a more certain and defined method 
 of promotion to the ranks of the established class, we \\ould point out that 
 the nature of the work performed by an auxiliary is exactly the sume as that 
 j)erformed by an established man, viz.: — <lelivery, collections, station duty, 
 stamping, etc., and they are often called upon to perform holiday work 
 and sick duties in the absence of their established colleague, thus showing 
 that their labour is, as far as the Department is concerned, equally as 
 u.seful to them ; and they are as skilled as the established men, althougli 
 receiving a lower rate of wage than the latter, and none of the other contin- 
 gent advantages, and with no prospect of an increase as long as they remain 
 auxiliaries. This stagnant state of affairs is not conducive to that interest 
 Lu the work of the Department which ought to be cultivated in every public 
 service, and we suggest that as the work of the district increases in bulk, 
 it should be met by instituting established duties, to be given to those men 
 in the order of their seniority, in preference to meeting the contingency by 
 making more auxiliaiy duties, as is the custom at present. I would suggest 
 that the vacant established duty and two auxiliary duties be added to- 
 gether, and two auxiliaries be fully appointed. The men at Sheffield are 
 practically working all hours of the day. 
 
 The Chairman : Your plan would reduce the total number of men em- 
 ployed ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I have before me the hours worked by the men at Sheffield. 
 Most of them are not working between 9 in the morning and 6 at night. 
 Witness : I have a long tabulated statement, which does not bear that out. 
 Mr. Walpole: Oh, I admit that some of them are. 
 
 (Low wages handed in as read.) 
 
 Witness : Furthermore, we would point to Dr. Wilson's evidence before 
 this Committee as proof that this method would be in the best interest of
 
 294 Zachariaii' Howk, Sheffield. 
 
 the Department, as it would avoid the evils that he deprecates, viz., the 
 early age of entry and the uncertamty of new entrants being able to bear 
 tlie strain of the work of the Dep:irtiiient, as the auxiliary has given tangible 
 proof of his stamina, and brings practical experience to bear upon the work 
 rcfiuired of him. We would further urge that he should commence at the 
 initial wage in accordance with his previous services, and not on the level 
 of new entrants. I see no objection to joining the estiblished class, al- 
 though I did refuse once. The third point for consideration, viz., the custom 
 of requiring Sunday labour to 'be performed by the auxiliary postmen, with- 
 out in many cases any remuneration for the same, cannot, in our opinion, l>e 
 defended upon any groimd, as it is oppo-sed to all rules of honesty to take 
 anything from a man without returning him an equivalent for it. The 
 Department themselves evidently feel that this is an injustice that cannot 
 1)^ defended, or wOiy do they pay for the labour in some instances, and 
 not hold to the hard and fast line that they are justitied in demanding this 
 labour from the whole of the auxiliary class without any payment whatso- 
 ever? Furthermore, we desire to point out that this is a distinct violation 
 of the pledge given by the late Right Hon. H. C. Raikes, in the House of 
 Commons in 1887 or 1883, " that in future all Sunday work would he paid 
 for." These words I am giving from memory. It may be urged that this 
 statement may have referred to men upui the establishment, but, if it is 
 admitted that it is an injustice to demand Sunday labour of an established 
 postman without paying for the same, how much greater is the injustice 
 to the auxiliary, who is doing sunilar work for far less remuneration and 
 out of whose labour the Department is making the greater part of their 
 large annual surplus, of which thev are so proud (and justly so). Therefore, 
 we feel ju.?tified in asking that Sunday labour should \yi taken from the 
 auxiliary class, or that they sliould be paid at the rate stipulated for by 
 Mr. Raikes, viz., time-and-a-quarter rate ; and when it is pointed out to 
 you that this Sunday work (without pay) often extends over 4 or 5 hours, 
 thus depriving a man of the best part of the day, which has been set apart 
 for rest by laws both human and Divine, we feel assured you will readily 
 admit the justice and consideration of this reque.st. The fourth point for 
 our consideration is the absence of participation in any of the contingent 
 advantages of the established class, such as holidays, sick pay, stripes, and 
 boot allowance. Holidays are recognised as an aksolute necessity in these 
 days of high pressure business requirements, and it would certainly tend 
 to the advantage of the Department if the auxiliary class were gi-anted an 
 annual holiday, to relieve them in some sort from the dragging, monotonous 
 routine of their duties, as they would return to those duties recuperated in 
 vital energy, and with a more cheerful dispo.sition to cope with them — more 
 especially should this concession be granted, as in many instances the time 
 given by these men is very little short of that given by the established class,' 
 and they are fully as capable of appreciating a little relief as are the men 
 in the last-mentioned list. An allowance in sick pay is necessary to this 
 class, as they have all the risks to contend against that the established class 
 have, in the shape of inclement weather, contagious diseases, or epidemics, 
 and, as no special provision is made on their behalf against such contin- 
 gencies, it is only right that they should be recompensed to a certain ex- 
 tent when they succumb to them. In the matter of good conduct stripes, 
 in our opinion it is essential m the best interest of the Department, and 
 as an encouragement to good behaviour, diligence, and disciplinary rules, 
 that the auxiliary postmen should be rewarded for these attributes the same 
 as the established men, and that they should receive a good conduct stripe 
 (when merited) every five years, to carry with it Is. per week addition to 
 their wages. I have been for 20 years on the same walk. I am often a.sked 
 by gentlemen why I have no stri^^es, and when I have pointed out my 
 length of service and explained that they are not given to auxiliaries, disgust 
 lias been expressed with the system. The stripes, we contend, would be 
 an advantage to the Department and to the public, inasmuch as tliat the
 
 Auxiliaries aud Boot Allowance 295 
 
 main cause of the great surplus revenue of the Post OflSce is the confidence 
 that the public place in its working, and so making use of all the facilities 
 offered them ; but if they once conceived the idea that the work was en- 
 trusted to a large class of men of an indifferent character (which they would 
 be perfectly justified in thinking, by the absence from these men of any 
 distinguishing mark of good conduct), that confidence would be considerably 
 shaken ; they would become timorous of utilising the facilities offered them 
 to the extent they now avail themselves, and the inevitable consequence 
 would be a vast diminution in the revenue winch is so acceptable a boon to 
 the Treasury. Lastly,, seeing that m.any of the auxiliaries are walking for 
 six or seven hours daily, which must of necessity cause a great wear and 
 tear of boot leather, we are of opinion that an allowance should be made 
 to those men for the provision of boots, in proportion to that allowed to the 
 men on the establishment, according to the ratio of time demanded of them 
 in common with the establislied postmen. I know I am on my feet about 
 six hours per day, and to do me justice I ought to have at least an allowance 
 of one pair of boots a year. In conclusion, I woukl thank this Committee 
 for the attention they have given me, and would remind them in con.sidering 
 their decision upon this question that they are adjudicating upon — I think I 
 may venture to term — almost the worst dealt with of any class of public 
 servants ; but I feel assured that the merits of the case will receive your full 
 consideration, and we may safely leave the issue in your hands. 
 
 The witness, who was under examination about an hour and twenty 
 minutes, then withdrew. Mr. Wilson's evidence, commenced on the Monday 
 and finished this day, occupied nearly three hours. 
 
 The court adjourned at 3.50.
 
 ALEX. MLAREN. Glastrow. 
 
 AuxiLiAHiKs' Case. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, 17th Feb., 1896. 
 
 Present: — The Right Hon. Lord Tweedmouth, Chairman; Sir Francis 
 Mowatt, K.C.B., Spencer Walpole, Esq., H. LlewelliiTi Smith, Esq., Sir 
 Arthur Godley, and Robert Bruce, Esq., Secretary. 
 
 The Chairman : I understand you have a little more to saj' to complete 
 the case of the auxiliaries. 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. In going over the evidence already given, I find that 
 it does not quite complete the case of tie auxiliary postmen, and I desire 
 to complete it. In doing so I wish to follow the order of heading.s already 
 supplied, and I would also like to say that I regret that the evidence should 
 be unduly prolonged on any point, but seeing that there is such a very large 
 number of men involved, namely, about 10,000, according to the Post- 
 master-General's report, I consiiler it is our duty to see that their case is 
 fairly put. In our national jwtition about three years ago we asked, 
 among other things, that the auxiliaries be merged in the estaVjlished force, 
 as it seemed to us that only by such a course could justice be done to this 
 hitherto neglected class. In rap'y the Postmaster-General vouchsafed unto 
 us tlie following decision: — "Auxiliaries are not on the establishment be- 
 cause they do not do for it a full day's work. As soon as their work grbws 
 into a full day's woi'k, they are incorporated into tlie establishment, pro- 
 vided, of course, that they fulfil the prescribed conditions. It is obvious that 
 men who are only in part servants of the Department cannot be accorded 
 the same privileges as those who are wholly so. But the Postmaster- 
 General is anxious, whenever the circumstances make it possible for him 
 to do so, to convert an auxiliary duty into an established appointment." 
 About the same time, Mr. Geo. Lansliury (on behalf of the Unemployed Com- 
 mittee) drew tlie Postmaster-General's attention to the case of the auxiliaries. 
 In reply, Mr. Lansbury received a letter signed by Mr. H. Joyce (of G.P.O.) 
 which contained the following important statements: — "Mr. Morley cannot 
 help thinking that the conditions of the auxiliaries' employment are not fully 
 understood. These men are not employed for a full day but only part of a day.and 
 the Post Office doss not profess to give them a full week's wages. The wages they 
 receive are in the nature of payment for piecework, and the question for the 
 Postmaster-General's consideration is not to wliat sum in any particular
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wa^es. 297 
 
 case this payment amounts in the course of t';e week, but whether it is a 
 fair rate per hour, and suthcient to comniaucl the services required." Again, 
 in the same letter — " Mr. Morley much prefers, where the circumstHnces 
 admit of it, that men should bs employed who. giving their whole time to 
 the Service, are borne on the establishment, and receive the established rate 
 of wages and contingent advantages ; but with the most scrupulous care in 
 adjusting the work some duties will always remain which cannot by them- 
 selves, or in combination with others, be constituted into whole-time duties, 
 and wliere this is so the emploj'ment of auxiliaries is imavoidable.' 
 The status of auxiliaries is further defined by the following rule of the 
 Service : — " Auxiliaries, m whatever capacity employed, may be dismissed 
 on the authority of the surveyor, and in this respect, as well as in respect 
 of requiring no Civil Service Certificate liefore employment, and not being 
 entitled to leave of absence at the cost of the Department, or to pensions, 
 they are on a different footing from established officers." In the matter, 
 however, of legal penalty from misconduct, they are in the same 
 condition as established officers. The Postmaster-General's last annual 
 report states: — "An auxiliary postman, in the sense in which, 
 the term is applied by the Department, is a man employed for a 
 less period than 8 hours a day. In London auxiliaries are usually drawn 
 from two classes : (!) Telegraph messengers awaiting appointment as post- 
 men ; (2) persons having occupations of their own, whose total earnings 
 both from the Department and their own affairs amount to at least 18s. 
 per week. The pay of auxiliary postmen in London is 6d. per hour during 
 the day, and 9d. and lOd. at night. The pay of an auxiliary postman in 
 the country averages from 4d. to 5d. per hour." I presume that in the 
 postal nomenclature the word " country " covers the provincial towns. Aux- 
 iliary pixstmen's terms of service were also alluded to by Mr. Morley in 
 the House of Commons as follows: — "Auxiliaries in provincial towns, in 
 addition to their wages, were provided with imiform, free medical attendance 
 in cases of sickness, with extra payment for Christmas Day and Good 
 Friday, together with any allowances for any other duties they performed, 
 so that the statement that the men's wages were a certain amount wa.s not 
 an accurate statement of the emoluments which they received. They had 
 these and other advantages which he had mentioned, and were of a fairly 
 substantial kind." I suppose the other advantages referred to must be 
 the Christmas boxes. Of late years there lias been a disposition on the 
 part of the Department to allude to them by indii-ect reference rather than 
 by direct mention. I suppose the authorities wanted to slide altogether out 
 01 the recognition of them. In the foregoing I have endeavoured to state 
 fairly and fully the official view of the case, and, having done so, we have 
 now to consider the following questions: — 
 
 (1) Is the employment of auxiliaries really unavoidable? 
 
 (2) Assuming, for argument's sake, that it is impossible to disjjense alto- 
 gether Avith auxiliary labour, is the proportion of auxiliaries not needlessly 
 high at some towns? 
 
 (3) Even if it be shown that the exigencies of the Service require the 
 employment of auxiliary labour, we submit that they merit better conditions 
 of service. 
 
 "With reference to the first point, I must frankly admit that the arrivals 
 of mails at Glasgow and some other towns are such as to cause the pressure 
 of work to converge on the first delivery in tJie morning and the last delivery 
 at night. It must also be admitted that the Department would have con- 
 siderable difficulty in providing a full day's work for all the 202 auxiliaries 
 at Glasgow. But I see no bona fide difficulty in incorporating at least 25 
 per cent, of them into the established force. I believe that in many other towns 
 there is a greater amount of auxiliary labour employed than is absolutely
 
 m 
 
 Alex. M'Laken, Glasgow. 
 
 necessary, and I think this will be admitted on a careful scrutiny of the 
 following table: — 
 
 TABLE SHOWING THE PROPORTION OF AUXILIARY POSTMEN TO 
 ESTABLISHED POSTMEN IN CERTAIN TOWNS. 
 
 TOWN. 
 
 Number of 
 
 Number of 
 
 Established 
 
 Auxiliary 
 
 Postmen. 
 
 Postmen. 
 
 524 
 
 2G2 
 
 25 
 
 19 
 
 21 
 
 9 
 
 75 
 
 12 
 
 82 
 
 11 
 
 50 
 
 27 
 
 17 
 
 22 
 
 (iO 
 
 20 
 
 . 140 
 
 31 
 
 11 
 
 11 
 
 S(; 
 
 10 
 
 17 
 
 9 
 
 15 
 
 12 
 
 (!3 
 
 23 
 
 16 
 
 13 
 
 10 
 
 6 
 
 9 
 
 11 
 
 80 
 
 12 
 
 G 
 
 8 
 
 4 
 
 10 
 
 39 
 
 34 
 
 13 
 
 13 
 
 26 
 
 7 
 
 61 
 
 39 
 
 58 
 
 39 
 
 40 
 
 8 
 
 Glasgow, - - - - 
 
 Paislej', - - - - 
 
 I'erth, . - - . 
 
 Dundee, - - - - 
 
 Abordeen, 
 
 Sunderlanrl, - . - 
 
 Keighloy and Sub-Offices, 
 
 Huddersfield, - 
 
 Bradford, - - - - 
 
 Barrow-in-Furness, - 
 
 liochdale, 
 
 Wrexham, 
 
 Hereford (Town), 
 
 Gloucester, ... 
 
 "Weston- Super- Mare , 
 
 Trowbridge, . . . 
 
 Boston (Line), 
 
 Ipswich, .... 
 
 Sevenoaks, ... 
 
 Old Charlton, - 
 
 Woolwich, 
 
 Beckenham, 
 
 St. Leonards-on-Sea, B.O , 
 
 Croydon, - - - - 
 
 Southampton, - 
 
 Cork. .... 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : When you say that 25 pe.' cent, should be in- 
 corporated, do you mean that 25 per cent, should be got rid of and their 
 place taken by a smaller number of established postmen, or that 25 per cent, 
 of these auxiliaries should be made established postmen? 
 
 A. I think there is a good deal in the evidence of Mr. Wilson which 
 suggested that public facilities should be increased at certain periods of the 
 day, and in that way many of these auxiliary duties would be erected into 
 full-time duties. 
 
 Q. By making more work? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Even if there was no necessity for it ? 
 
 A. Not exactly. In making that statement I had in view the case of 
 Glasgow, where there are certain postmen who consider they have a 
 grievance in being kept on perpetual late duty. At a meeting we held a 
 petition was diuwn up showing how the imvarying late duty could be abol- 
 ished, and at the same time admit of about 25 auxiliaries being converted 
 into the whole-time men, besides facUitating the work of the Department. 
 
 Q. What became of that petition? * 
 
 A. It was only addressed to the Postmaster, and I presume he did not 
 require to pass it on any further. The chief objection to tlie prayer of 
 that jjetition being granted was that esfciblished labour is paid at a 
 higher rate than auxiliary labour, and it would mvolve an ir.creise of about
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wasres. 299 
 
 £300 a year to convert these 25 auxiliary duties into established appoint- 
 ments, because some of these auxiliaries were only on 8s. duty. 
 
 The Chairman : If you make a larger number of full-time men, would 
 not that reduce the number of men employed on short-time duty? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I think that the postmen, taking them all over the country, 
 pretty closely approach a full day's work of eight hours ; I mean the es- 
 tablished postmen. 
 
 Q. But if you increase the number of full-time duties that would surely 
 reduce the total number of men employed on short time. 
 
 A. Yes, it might ; but some of our established men have a collection in 
 addition to their deliveries, which does not harmonise with the other parts 
 of their day's work, and we would propose to relieve the delivering postmen 
 of that part of their work. I don't think we have much ground for com- 
 plaint at Glasgow as to established men exceeding their r.uota of 8 liours. 
 We don't make complaint on that score, although Mr. Dowling, who has 
 scrutinised the papers received on this subject of hours of attendance, 
 assures me that it is quite a common thing for the hours of established 
 postmen elsewhere to considerably exceed their proper quota of 8 hours per 
 day. 
 
 Q. How many established postmen have vou in Glasgow? 
 
 A. 524. 
 
 Q. And how many auxiliaries? 
 
 A. 202. 
 
 Q. If you were to add 50 auxiliaries to the established postmen class 
 that would practically involve a re-distribution of many of the duties, would 
 it not? 
 
 A. There has been an additional delivery put on ; it was added in the 
 second week of January, and is being provided for by temporary methods ; 
 but we are anxious that where there is a revision of that sort it should not 
 be provided for by auxiliary labour, or by temporary methods, but that 
 it should be erected into a whole-tim.e duty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose that a large number of the 524 established post- 
 men in Glasgow are employeil on indoor duty? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think there are 56 stampers and about 40 messengers. 
 
 Q. Tlien a considerable number are employed on station service? 
 
 A. Yes ; about 40. 
 
 Q. Tlien there are rather over 400 employed on outdoor duties? 
 
 A. Not so many. I think. 
 
 Q. I am advised that there are 414, which no doubt would be about 
 right, for you said the total number was 524, and you have otherwise ac- 
 counted for a little over 100? 
 
 A. Yes ; I believe that would be so. It did not occur to me that there 
 were quite so many on outdoor duty, but apparently I neglected to take 
 into account those at Govan or some other suburban districts. 
 
 Q. None of the auxiliaries are employed at more than two duties? 
 
 A. Not at Glasgow. 
 
 Q. They have none of the long six hours' duties of which we have 
 heard ? 
 
 A. Not at Glasgow; but cases have been brought under my notice from 
 other places. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : I understand that tlie 5 or 6 hours' duties for 
 auxiliaries are what you object to most? 
 
 A. There are 147 of our auxiliaries employed on 6 hours' duty, and the 
 remainder on 8s. duty, which covers the morning deliveries. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There are only two deliveries ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but they are the two heaviest of the day. 
 
 Q. Do they take 3 hours each ? 
 
 A. I have here a typical case of the attendance of an auxiliary postman 
 on two duties; it is as follows: — 5.45 a.m. to 9.15 a.m., and then 6.45 
 p.m. to 9.15 p.m. ; that is a typical case. Total daily work 6 hours.
 
 300 Ai KX. ]\I'Lai!kn, Glasgow. 
 
 covering a period of 15^ hours, and with an interval l>etween of about 9^ 
 hours ; ■svages 14s. per week, being about 4^d. per hour. 
 
 Q. The man has practically a whole day free between his two duties, 
 namely, from 9.15 a.m. to 6.45 p.m. 
 
 A. Yes ; but other work i.s not practicable in sudi a case. It must be 
 remembered that most of these are lads of from 18 to 21, who have not 
 alwxiys reached tiieir full bodily strength or maturity, and having in view 
 the extraordinarily fatiguing nature of the work at Glasgow, which is mostly 
 8tair-climl>ing, as any of the Committee may know who have visited Glas- 
 gow, such youths are not fit for much otiier work in the interval. One 
 high official in the Post Office — I think it was Mr. Trollope — when lie 
 was in the Service, visited (JIasgow to investigate the case of the postmen ; 
 tlie postmen of that day insisted that he should travel up and down the long 
 flights of stairs witli them, and he stated that he had never worked so 
 hard in his life, although, of course, that wa.s not such hard work as the 
 postmen had, because they had also to carry their bags of letters. In 
 view of the kind of work which the young men have to do during their two 
 duties, it is quite evident from the letters which we have received t' at they 
 cannot in the intervening hours of the day engage in anj'thing Vjut work of 
 a light cluiracter. 
 
 Q. Are these lads waiting for established appointment? 
 A. Yes ; waiting for appointment. Out of the 202 I don't suppose that 
 there are more than two dozen who have other regular employment through- 
 out the day, and these are most probably men who don't look forward to 
 an established appointment. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : The majority of the young fellows who are aux- 
 iliaries at Gla.sgow are, I suppose, looking forward to an appointment? 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose they are ex-telegraph messengers ? 
 A. Yes. The Service is mostly recruited from the telegraph messenger 
 branch, and we quite approve of th.it. There seems to be some discre- 
 pancy on this point as to the practice in London and the provinces, for I 
 believe that in London the auxiliaries do not form the avenue from which 
 the regular postmen are recruited ; they are outride of the regular line of 
 promotion, whereas in the provinces the auxiliaries are considered to form 
 the recruited field for the established class. 
 
 Sir F. Alowatt : Being themselves recruited from the telegraph mes- 
 sengevs ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. LlewellTO Smith : Then they are an intermediate class between the 
 telegraph messengers and the established postmen. 
 
 A. Yes. We have no complaint to make on that score at Glasgow, for 
 during the last ten years at least the vacancies have been filled up in that 
 way very fairly. When a telegraph messenger is taken on for auxiliary 
 duty in the letter-carriers' department, his name is entered in a book kept 
 for the purpose by the head inspector, and that records his seniority, so 
 that except in cases where a man has something against him, such as too 
 many late attendances, he is not passed over when his turn comes for an 
 o2)ening. I am glad to be able to state that we can congratulate our inspec« 
 tors on the impartiality with which they give established appointments to 
 auxiliary postmen in turn, but I understand that in London the auxiliary 
 postmen are not considered the proper recruiting field for the established 
 class. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : With regard to the 147 who are doing 6 hours' duty, 
 you added tnat the remainder are on 8s. duty ; are these chiefly ex-telegraph 
 messengers waiting for appointment? 
 
 A. Yes. Most of those on the 8s. duty are younger lads. Tliey either 
 do morning delivery or do two attendances. Parcel Post, or whatever is 
 required, because those who usually assist with parcels may l>e sent out 
 with circulars if there are no parcels for them.
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wages. 301 
 
 Mr. LlewelljTi Smitli : Then they are not adults, but hoys? 
 
 A. Yes, that is .so ; those who receive 8s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Confining yourself to Glasgow for a moment, do you object 
 to this syst'Om of emploj-ing telegraph messengers waiting for appointment 
 as auxiliaries? 
 
 A. I don't object to it ; I regard it as being the best method by which 
 the Service could be recruited. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in connection with the system to which you object? 
 
 A. Yes ; the treatment meted out to these men. 
 
 Q. As to their pay, or their work, or in what re-spect? 
 
 A In almost every respect they are an outcast class. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You huve told us that in Glasgow tliey are mostly boys 
 waiting for established apiJointme:its ? 
 
 The Chairman : You can hardly describe boys in that transitional state 
 a^ being an outcast class? 
 
 A. I have a vivid recollection of my own experience in the matter. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But you were not an outcast, for here you are as an 
 established postman giving evidence. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You admit that they are added in due course to the 
 established class ; and now please tell us in what respect do they sufi^er? 
 
 A. In having none of the contingent advantages of the Service. 
 
 Q. Do vou mean that the}^ are outcasts because they don't get holiday.?, 
 an :! h'lct allov.ance, and sick pay? 
 
 A. Yes : and considering also the bad hours they have to work. 
 
 The Chairman.: Your idea apparently is that they ought to be put upon 
 fc'ne establislimenr. much quicker? 
 
 A. Perhaps I will make the point more clear if I proceed with my state- 
 ment. Apart from the question of pai'ti;il absorption of the auxiliaries 
 in the established force, the question arises as to what should be done with 
 those remaining in a state of auxiliaryship? For even the most thorough 
 of the Departmental apologists could scarcely have the heart to say that 
 their condition requires no amelioration. A scrutiny of the pipers seems 
 to show that their average all over the country is about 4|d. per hour ; 
 but I was not sure how they stood with regard to Sunday duty, so 
 could not tabulate that in exact figures. The present rate of pay — average 
 4^d. per hour — might be considered sufficient under very exceptional cir- 
 cumstances, such, for example, as mere lads of 16 or 17 employed on 
 light duties, and that they had promotion to better wages after a definite 
 I)eriod. Although a lad of 16 or 17 might reasonably be contented with 4^d. 
 per hour light work, he soon outgrows this rate of pay. Besides, an 
 auxiliary postman's duty cannot fairly be described as work of a light 
 character. For in Glasgow and most of the towns that I am acquainted 
 with, the auxiliaries have to carry the same loads as the appointed men. 
 The 4id. per hour is irrespective of the lightness or heaviness of the work, 
 and also irrespective of the age or length of service of the recijjient. Letter- 
 delivery is physically heavy work, and of a res}X)nsible character, which clearly 
 marks it off as being unsuited for boy-labour. Having in view that it is 
 adult work of a severe character, we feel quite justified in asking for the 
 present 4^d. rate being sujDerseded by the following improved rates — 6d. 
 per hour for day duty and 9d. per hour for night duty and Sunday duty, 
 and the Sunday duty to be paid separately. In reply to the deputation 
 from the Unemployed Organisation Committee, the Postmaster-General 
 said, among other things: — "I am not going to u.se the nwrket value of 
 wages as an argument. I recognise that it is a standard by which a Govern- 
 ment Department or any employer ought not to be guided. The Post Office, 
 I admit, ought certainly to act as an example to other employers, bearing in 
 mind the duty it owes to the public, and the consideration it must have for 
 the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by whose decisions it must be bound." 
 (Dee. 1892.) I wish to do Mr. Morley every justice, because his attitude
 
 302 Ai.Ex. M'Laren, Glasgow. 
 
 on this question is considered very satisfactory ; it is decidedly an attitude 
 towards progress, and tlie only tiling we liave to regret is that it has not 
 been possible to make more progress in the way of establishing, as far as 
 possible, the auxiliary class. To ensure the equitable reckoning of an 
 auxiliary postman's attendance we desire to see the following conditions 
 observed : — 
 
 (a) Any interval less than one clear hour not to be booked off. 
 
 (b) No single attendance to count less tlian one hour. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are vou talking of the whole country ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not half-an-hour now ? 
 
 A. I am not aware of any definite rule. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith: You don't recognise local differences in these cases? 
 
 A. I have endeavoured to keep in view the case of the whole country. 
 In Gloucester we liave a number of men doing collection duties spread 
 over the whole dav — five collections at 12s. per week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You are talking about auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Yes : I don't know how long a collection lasts, but we desire that no 
 single attendance should be counted less than one hour. 
 
 Q. Five collections, assuming them to take one hour each, would mean 
 30 hours per week, paid at 12s.? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. That is nearly 6d. an hour, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; but we want them to be paid 61. per hour, and if there is 
 only Id. of difiference it seems to me that what we are asking is very 
 moderate compared with some claims put forward by other sections of the 
 Service. In case of men whose daily work is spread over more than two 
 attendances, and t'lereby spoiling their chances of obtaining other employ- 
 ment, we desire that such cases should invariably be paid higher than 6d. 
 per hour in order to compensate them for the broken nature of their day's 
 work. It ought to be considered by the surveyors or whoever deals with 
 these questions whether the man should not get a higher rate than 6d. an 
 hour in the case of broken duties. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Supposing an auxiliary is an ex-telegraph messenger, 
 what would you say to it then? 
 
 A. We say that it is work that ought not to be performed by boys at all. 
 
 Q. But I understood you to approve of the Glasgow plan of ex-telegraph 
 messengers being employed as auxiliary workers? 
 
 A. I admitted in the early part of my statement that it might be a fair 
 reasonable wage for an ex-telegraph messenger in the first instance, but 
 what we object to is the stationary condition in which he remains ; he 
 may be 20 years at the same rate of wages, and the same wage would 
 not be adequate for him after 20 years' service, even if the work remained 
 the same. 
 
 The Chairman : What is the average time a telegraph messenger re- 
 mains as an auxiliary in Glasgow? 
 
 A. From 3^ to 4 years, but the man signing 202nd on the auxiliary list 
 would have tlie prospect of being stagnated much more than 4 years. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But not longer tlian 20 years ? 
 
 A. It is hard to .say : but it could not be 20 years, because the hard 
 work of the postman kills them off quicker than that. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You are judging somewhat from the experience of the 
 past ; I think you have been some little time without a revision of the 
 outdoor force in Glasgow? 
 
 A. I think it was in October, 1891. 
 
 Q. Glasgow has grown rajaidly, and there is a revision pending, is there 
 not? 
 A. I am not aware : I am not taken into the confidence of the Postmaster.
 
 A uxiliaries'.C ase — D uties — Wages. 303 
 
 Another reason why the work has increased is that the general public are 
 finding out that the Post Office is one of the best mediums for advertising. 
 The recent gold boom and other things of the kind has largely increased 
 our work, apart from the growth of the town. It may seem that paying 
 6d. per hour auxiliary labour would involve some inequality, seeing it is a 
 higher rate per hour than the initial wage for the established class. The 
 distinction is intended. For in some towns, at any rate, auxiliary labour 
 appears to be employed not so much because it is unavoidable, but because 
 it is clieaper than established labour. Besides, we regard it as only fitting 
 that the auxiliaries, whose labom' is m a manner casual, sliould be paid at 
 the higher rate. The following rule of the Service is instructive as having 
 a bearing on this point: — "Except in the case of auxiliaries, the power of 
 dismissal rests with the Postmaster-General alone, and no one once dis- 
 missed can be employed in any capacity without the special authority of the 
 Postmaster-Greneral." It will thus be seen that the auxiliaries have not got 
 the same security of office-tenure as the established officers have. We 
 are asking 20s. per week to commence with, and at the i"ate of 6d. per hour 
 it might seem that we ought to be asking 24s. per week, but this distinction 
 is intended, for in some towns auxiliary labour appears to be employed, 
 not because it is the most suitable, but becau.se it is cheaper. It may be 
 advanced by the Department that the work is not casual, that the men have 
 some security of work during good behaviour, but their other employment 
 is casual. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It may ba difficult to answer the question, but can you 
 give us any case where the Department lias deliberately preferred aux 
 iliary labour to established labour because it is cheaper? 
 
 A. I cannot say that, but I wilF mention the case of a few towns where 
 the proportion of auxiliaries employed seems to be larger than is neces- 
 sary. Take the case of Paisley, where there are 19 auxiliaries and only 25 
 established postmen, or Keighley, Yorkshire, where there are 22 auxiliaries 
 and only 17 established postmen ; Bradford, wliere there are 31 auxiliaries 
 to 140 estciblished postmen ; Barrow-in-Furness, where there are 11 of 
 each class ; Worcester, 69 established postmen and 33 auxiliaries ; in Cliel- 
 tenham there are 53 established postmen and 32 auxiliaries ; in Bath 80 
 established postmen and 24 auxiliaries ; in Newport, 42 established post- 
 men and 31 auxiliaries ; in Belfast, 131 established postmen and 34 aux- 
 iliaries. In all these cases I cannot see how it is that the exigencies of the 
 Service require such a large proportion of auxiliary postmen. I have been 
 in communication with all of these districts. 
 
 The Chairman : The proportion is not so great in many of tliein as it is 
 in Glasgow? 
 
 A. No ; but take such a case a.s Barrow-in-Furness. 
 
 Mr. Waljjole : Will you accept it from me that, so far as the Postmaster- 
 General is concerned, every revision of the outdoor force that comes up, 
 an endeavour is made to place as many established men as it is possible 
 to find established duties for? 
 
 A. I gladly accept that statement, but I would like to add also, that in a 
 large service like the Post Office, ramifying throughout the whole country, 
 it is not at all to be wondered at if in nooks and crannies of the system 
 you find some men in authority who are rather antiquated in their notions, 
 
 Q. You mentioned the case of Paisley, and I happen to have here a 
 report to the Secretary at Edinburgh. It is as follows : — 
 
 '■ The employment of so many auxiliaries at Paisley is no doubt open to 
 objection, and I have more than once discussed the subject with the Post- 
 master with a view to the employment of more men on full duty in place 
 of a number of auxiliaries. A revision of the whole outdoor dmties is now 
 before me, and a report will reach the Secretary shortly ; but unless the day's 
 work is spread over too long a period, I fear it will not be possible to reduce 
 the number of auxiliaries."
 
 304 At>kx. M'Lakkn, Glasgow. 
 
 Will you accept that from me as evidence that we are trying to reduce 
 the proportion of auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Yes ; and I recognise the attitude that Mr. Morley took up. I accept 
 that a.s the wish of the Department, but in some towns we find it is not 
 accomplished. I have no doubt that when these aiixiliary duties were first 
 commenced tiiat the plan was adojJted for purposes of economy. 
 
 Q. I am only hoping that you will make some allowance for our great 
 difficulty in dealing at once and rapidly with thousands of different towns? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am making due allowance on that account. I must admit also 
 that within the last two mouths, indeed since this Committee was estab- 
 lished, there has been a considerable brushing up, and I hope it will con- 
 tinue. 
 
 Q. I was not aware of that ; in fact, I rather thought that in some cases 
 we were perhaps a little disposed to take a more severe view in prospect 
 of the Committee's work. 
 
 A. Perhaps it would not have done to hold over the worst cases for the 
 Committee to deal with. With regard to the auxiliary postman's oppor- 
 tunity to get other employment, I now wish to deal. Unlike London, it 
 is not compulsory in the provinces for an auxiliary to have other employ- 
 ment ; and, for variou.s reasons, it is difficult for those wishing other em- 
 ployment to get it. In Glasgow, for example, the majority of our aux- 
 iliaries are young men from 18 to 21, who have previously been telegraph 
 messengers, so that they liave been in the Post Office since leaving school. 
 They have, therefore, no trade on their hands to which to turn during their 
 disengaged time. But even suppose they had another trade to which they 
 could turn, they would be seriously hampered by the nature of their official 
 duties. The fatiguing character of their official duties would prevent them 
 from engaging in any but the lighter and more crowded occupations, such 
 a.s clerking. The followmg quotation from a Shrewsbury correspondent 
 shows some of the difficulties that beset an auxiliary postman in his en- 
 deavour to obtain other employment : — " If one goes to look for employ- 
 ment the first question he is asked is, 'Where were you last employed?' 
 and when he states he is employed in the Post Office he is straightway asked 
 what more he would like? It is very hard to get steady employment out- 
 side the Post Office while the official hours are so awkward. It is not 
 everybody who will take a man for a few hours a day, and not even then 
 certain of having him regularly, for the Post Office authorities may send 
 for him at any time to do a collection or deliver a parcel." As bearing on 
 this point, I would wish to quote the following rule of the Service: — 
 
 DEVOLUTION OF DUTIES. 
 
 '■ //I the case of superintendents or dcrlcs : — When an officer belonging 
 to any of these grades is absent, his duty should devolve upon the officer 
 next bslow him, provided he is competent, and the duty of the latter upon 
 his immediate inferior, subject to the same conditions of competency, and so 
 on to the lowest class. 
 
 "In the case of posttiwn:- — When divided into classes, a postman of the 
 lower class is to act as a substitute for a postman of the higher, an aux- 
 iliary for the lower class, the auxiliary's place being supplied by an extra 
 man emploj^ed temporarily." 
 
 I wish to draw particular attention to the latter portion of this rule, by 
 which it is implied that an auxiliary must hold himself in readiness to sac- 
 rifice his other employment when the Department requires his services for 
 whole-time duty. Auxiliary postmen, practically speaking, have security of 
 tenure during good behaviour, although, according to the strict rule of the 
 Service, they do not have it ; they may be dispensed with at any time. 
 For instance, 1 remembsr a young lad who was along with me as an aux- 
 iliary postman, and he was told to take a month to look out for another 
 situation, as he had not sufficient cliest measurement to be a postman.
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wages. 806 
 
 I suspect that stair-climbing liad kept liim from becoming sufficiently 
 stout to become a postman, but tliat, I admit, was an extreme case, and I 
 am not quoting it as typical. 
 
 The Chairman : It might have been a kindness to him? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You don't object to a minimum chest measurement? 
 
 A. No ; but it is a standard of efficiency which is not exacted from other 
 departments. It shows that the postman's work is really more import;mt 
 than some of those more highly-paid departments. 
 
 Q. Than some other departments of the Post Office? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You think the importance of t'.ie work is to be gauged by the chest 
 measurement of the persons performing it? 
 
 A. Not exiictly ; but there is a greater degree of efficiency and more con- 
 ditions exacted from the postmen, although their wages are lower. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that in almost every branch of the Service, including 
 the sorting clerks, etc., in London the medical officer insists on chest 
 measurement? 
 
 A. It is not laid down by the rules of the Service. 
 
 Q. But it is the practice, is it not? 
 
 A. It may be the practice in London, liut I don't think medical officers 
 tliroughout the country insist on it. I cannot, liowever, speak with confi- 
 dence on that. I know that men whose stature would not admit of their 
 l)eing postmen have got employment in the telegraph and sorting branches. 
 With regard to auxiliaries getting extra outside employment, I may say that 
 the whole of our postal work depends very nmch on the English Mail Ser- 
 vice, and if the English mail is late the postmen may be kept beyond their 
 usual time, and that might be very inconvenient for a man who is employed, 
 say, to keep an office ojjen for a commission agent or anything of that 
 sort. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume in the case of these ex-telegraph messengere it is 
 not desirable that they should have other employment? Six hours' duty 
 as an auxiliary postman is enough? 
 
 A. Quite enough. 
 
 Q. And it is better to employ them as auxiliary postmen until they get 
 more mature and strong? 
 
 A. Yes ; if the Department paid the auxiliaries better for their work, and 
 gave them a reasonable wage, we would be quite satisfied to discouragmg 
 them from undertaking any outside employment. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : As a matter of fact, have many of these men 
 outside employment? 
 
 A. Perhaps 10 per cent. ; about two dozen out of 204. 
 
 Q. They do something else? 
 
 A. Yes ; but usually of a light character. There was a case brought 
 under my notice where an auxiliary postman who had a duty to finish 
 rather earlier than the others was able to take a situation as shorthand clerk 
 with a firm of engineers, but he made himself prematurely old by trjnng 
 to M'ork two days' duties in one day. 
 
 Q. Are we to understand that the larger proportion of these auxiliaries 
 who have 9 hours' interval between their postal duties do not engage in 
 other work? 
 
 A. The work was so hard that when I had such an interval I had to go 
 to bed. There has been a revision since, but even in view of that I con- 
 sider the best thing the youths can do in their interval of leisure is to get 
 rest. 
 
 Q. I was asking not what they ought to do, but what, as a matter of 
 fact, they do? 
 
 A. Tlie fact is that a comparatively small section of them have other em- 
 ployment, which is usually of a light character, such as keeping an office 
 open to something of that sort, which does not involve heavy work. I have
 
 306 Ahi'X. M'Laren, GrlasgoW. 
 
 already read out the rule of the Service laid down for the guidance of 
 Postmasters and others that the auxiliary is the proper substitute for a 
 whole-day postman, and that the auxiliary must hold himself in readiness 
 for such business. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume that among the 200 or more auxiliaries at 
 Glasgow there must be many who are always ready and glad to undertake 
 such extra duty? 
 
 A. I don't quite catch your point. 
 
 Q. Then I will put it in another w^ay : that it cannot be the practice to 
 select some extra auxiliary and inflict this extra duty upon him whether 
 he likes it or not? 
 
 A. In Glasgow their complaint rather is that they cannot get enough of 
 that extra work. 
 
 Q. That would be the case in London also, would it not? 
 
 A. I have not gone into the case of London. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you will find that the cases are very exceptional 
 indeed where an auxiliary is forced to take an extra duty against his will? 
 
 Mr. WaljDole : Even the man mentioned at our last meeting — the man who 
 was a waiter — suffered, I am told, no kind of compulsion wliatever — that he 
 was let off when asked? 
 
 A. Although there may be no compulsion in the strict sense of the word, 
 still, if an auxiliary is not pretty attentive to the suggestions that are 
 made to him by his immediate superiors, he may be passed over when a 
 vacancy occurs in the established class. 
 
 Q. That would not be the case in Glasgow? 
 
 A. No ; there we have no complaint to make on that score. We wish 
 to acknowledge the impartiality which the Glasgow authorities have shown 
 in selecting men in accordance with their seniority, but I should like to 
 hand you a statement — -(statement here handed in) — with reference to St. 
 Leonards -on-Sea. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There is nothing here showing pressure. The paper you 
 liave handed in to lis gives the answers to the questions you put as to 
 the official hours of attendance of auxiliaries filling up their spare time 
 with other employment, and it is stated that the auxiliaries act as substi- 
 tutes for the town postmen, and that with regard to their own duties they 
 rotate so that they cannot well take other employment. There is nothing 
 in this paper as to undue pressure. 
 
 A. No ; but there are seven duties having various hours of attendance, 
 and they rotate, so that only one week in eight there is a man with the same 
 duty, and it would be out of the question for him to engage in any other 
 employment, unless it was something like collectmg for industrial companies ; 
 and it is a moot point whether that is not forbidden to auxiliarv postmen. 
 
 Q. That may be so ; but you mentioned St. Leonards-on-Sea as a case 
 where auxiliary postmen were forced to accept duty against their will so 
 as to enable them to obtain other employment. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : We had that put before us as evidence that an auxiliary 
 should not be called on to take any but his regular specified duties? 
 
 A. I only wish to bring out the truth. There has been no case brought 
 imder my notice of an auxiliary having been compelled to relinquish his 
 other employment. 
 
 The Chairman : I understand you to say that the practice of St. Leonards- 
 on-Sea is so to distribute the duties as to make it impossible for a man to 
 take other employment? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is not quite conducive to efficiency and good discipline that 
 an inferior officer like an auxiliary should argue with his Postmaster the 
 point whether he is bound by law to do this or that thing. When a thing 
 is suggested to an auxiliary, even without any threat whatever of conse- 
 quences in case of refusal, the fact of its being suggested to him in that way 
 by a superior officer I take to amount in itself to a certain amount or kind
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wages. 307 
 
 of _ pressure, having in view the proper regard that must be liad to the 
 authority of the superior ofHcer. 
 
 Q. I quite understand that from an opportunist point of view it is best 
 for the auxiliary to take tlie work suggested to him. 
 
 A. Not exactly opportunist. I do not care al)out that term altogetlier ; 
 I am not quite sure what it msans. 
 
 Q. I mean from tlie point of view of a man's own advantage, namely, 
 that if a man does suggest the work suggested to him he is more likely to 
 stand well with his immediate superiors. 
 
 A. I don't wish it to be understood that he accepts the work in the way of 
 cuirying favour with his superiors. 
 
 Q. Oh, no ; but it is natur.il with everybody to wish to stand in good 
 favour with superiors? 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : A man who raises objections to particular duties 
 does not get on quite so well? 
 
 A. No ; a man does not care to raise obstacles which may possibly in 
 some way hinder his progress in the Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I sliould like to ask you with reference to a vacation at 
 St. Leonards : has that rotation not been arranged to suit the views of 
 the men themselves? 
 A. No ; I think not. 
 
 Q. Is it not a most unu.sual practice for auxiliary duties to rotate? 
 A. It is unusual ; there are only comparatively few towns where it seems 
 to be done. 
 
 Q. Would you not infer that it has been done in these towns to meet tl'.e 
 wishes of the men themselves? 
 
 A. Not always ; the rotation may have been fixed in order to equalise the 
 duties, and so long as the men are paid equal wages there might be no 
 reason why they should not rotate. In continuing my statement, I wish 
 to put in a plea for the contingent advantages of the Service. First, with 
 reference to the annual holidays, it has been advanced, of course, that an 
 auxiliary, seeing that he does not do the same amount of work in a day as 
 an established postman, should not get the same privileges. That may be 
 quite so, but I want to bring out what is the practice in Glasgow. In doing 
 so I may say that I quite concur with wliat Mr. Dowling said with regard 
 to the basis upon which the holiday arrangements are fixed. The basis of 
 wages is imwholesome ; it ought rather to be a ba.sis of work. A telegraph 
 messenger in Glasgow gets a fortnight's holiday every year, with wages. 
 His wages are reckoned at 8s. per week, although some, of course, get more 
 and some less. But as soon as a telegraph messenger comes to be pro- 
 moted to an auxiliary postmauslii|3 — doing far more responsible and fatigu- 
 ing duty — he gets no holidays. He may be in this position four or five years 
 without getting any holiday. This constitutes a sort of imprisonment for 
 one who, after all, is a growing lad. We want that such lads should get a 
 fortnight's holiday. Of course, it might be said that if a man who did 
 not do an eight hours' duty got a fortnight's holiday, he would be getting 
 more than he was entitled to. But that is scarcely correct. In giving a 
 fortnight's holiday to a postman who works 48 hours a week, you give 
 him, in fact, 96 hoiu's' holiday, and, in the same way, if you give a fort- 
 night's holiday to a man who works only 36 hours a week, you give him 
 72 hours' holiday. I think that a very fair case can be made out for givmg 
 the same amount of holidays to auxiliary postmen as to the established men. 
 I think, indeed, that they need it more on account of the effect of the 
 permanent injury to their health through being as long as four and even 
 five years without any holiday at all. I know that when I whs in that 
 position and experienced it, I felt it as an imprisonment. Then, with 
 regard to stripes, I am quite satisfied with the case Mr. Wilson has put 
 forward. He has put the points clearly, and it is unnecessary for me to 
 dwell further on the subject. 
 ' Mr. Walpole : 1 should like to ask you one question. You do not, I
 
 308 Ai.Ex. M'Lahk.n, Glasgow. 
 
 suppose, advocate that a man should l)e kept as an auxiliary for so long a 
 period as to entitle him to stripes? 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Would you give them in proportion to the number 
 of hours worked, and spread them over a longer period when a man works u 
 shorter number of hours? 
 
 A. It has been so frequently impressed upon us that stripes do not repre- 
 sent wages, but represent so many years' good conduct, that I think an 
 auxiliary ought to have the benefit of the doubt, even altliougli he does not 
 <lo a full day's work. If he does a fair day'.s work, and liis conduct is 
 good, he should have stripes ; that is my view of the subject. 
 Q. Then you would take the same period? 
 
 A. Well, as to that, it is not a point on which I have consulted my 
 colleagues. They may differ from me, but I do not think it is very material. 
 With regard to Sunday pay, the general rule of the Service is that a post- 
 man whose week's work includes Sunday work ha.s no extra payment for 
 Sundays, but lie does if his week's work is based on a week-day duty, as 
 is the case at Birmingham and Glasgow. Our auxiliaries do not do any 
 Sunday duty at all, but if they did they would be paid extra for it. That 
 is a point upon which I had some difficulty in getting information. Even 
 our Postmaster could not tell me the position of tlie auxiliaries in regard 
 to Sunday labour. Nobody in the Gla.sgow office could tell me. 
 Mr. Walpole : Who does the Sunday work at Glasgow ? 
 A. The established postmen. The question has never arisen there. The 
 general rule seems to he that a postman having a Sunday delivery in addi- 
 tion to a week-day delivery is not paid for it. But in some towns they have 
 adopted a system which we call sweating, by substituting auxiliaries for 
 established postmen. For instance, at Southport. instead of giving the aux- 
 iliary 3s. 6d. or 4s. for a Sunday morning delivery, as the established men 
 would have, they bring in an auxiliary, and only give him Is. 6d. 
 
 Q. That is an auxiliary acting as a substitute for an established postman? 
 A. Yes ; but he is not paid at the same rate. He is onlv paid on the 
 4id. rate. 
 Q. And he is also paid the 45tl. rate for his ordinary week-day work? 
 A. Y&s, as far as I can make out. 
 
 Q. The Is. 6d. payment on Sunday is not for a. regular auxiliary duty, 
 but for a duty as substitute for an established postman, is it not? 
 
 A. I do not understand the intricacies of the case. It seems to me that if 
 an auxiliary postman is brought on to do a day's work for which an estab- 
 lished postman gets 3s. 6d. or 4s., and the auxiliary only gets Is. 6d., there 
 is a decided unfairness about it. 
 
 Q. The established postman gets whatever may be his rate of pay, plus 
 stripes and his other advantages? 
 
 A. For Sunday work he gets rate -and -a-quarter. 
 
 Q. But his pay would depend on his position in the Service and the 
 number of stripes he has, would it not? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. While the auxiliary would be paid at the lower rate, he would be 
 paid on the minimum scale, would he not? 
 A. Yes ; but the work is the same. 
 
 Q. The work may be the same, but is it not the fact that some postmen 
 get 34s. and others 18s., according to the time they have been in the Ser- 
 vice? That is so, is it not? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. They are paid at different rates? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Must that not always be the case that men who are doing the same 
 work are paid at different rates? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I do not see any justification for such a great disparity. 
 TTiere is another point in connection with this which emphasises the
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wages. 309 
 
 opinion that this system is scarcely a fair one, and that is the auxiliary's 
 wage is a stationary one, while the postman has an ascending scale, with 
 the prospect of reaching the top. Now I come to the question of sick pay. 
 
 The Chairman : You said in the earlier jmrt of your evidence that your 
 idea was that Sunday labour ought to be paid for at the rate-and-a-half, 
 whatever a man was getting? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F, Mowatt : Is it not a fact that in the case of established postmen 
 they are paid a rate-and-a-quarter ? 
 
 A. Yes ; in my office it is rate-and-a-quarter. It was so when Raikes's 
 revision came in force. But it may be higher in some offices. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: For Sunday work? 
 
 A. Yes ; rate-and-a-quarter, with stripes. 
 
 Q. Before you leave this point let me ask you another question. You 
 say that at Southport the established postmen are paid 3s. 6d. for Sunday 
 duty. I doubt if that is so. Have you any information on that point? 
 The mean scale of the Southport established postmen is 5^d. per liour against 
 the auxiliaries' A^-d. I do not think tliere can be all that difference in the 
 Sunday pay? 
 
 A. They have not as many postmen on Sunday duty as on week-day duty, 
 and it therefore takes longer to do the morning's work. 
 
 The Chairman: Each ptistman has a longer walk? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have information on that point. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Even if a Sunday delivery occupied 4 hours, the pay 
 would only amount to 2s. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That is on the mean scale ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And if you take it at the maximum, it won't come to 
 more than half-a-crown, will it? 
 
 A. I think the delivery takes about five hours. 
 
 Q. The morning's work? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am not quite sure until I can scrutinise the papers from South- 
 j)ort. 
 
 Q. I know of no delivery occupying five hours ; still, I do not want to 
 press that point. 
 
 Witness : With regard to such pay, while we claim that the auxiliaries 
 ought to have a condition of service more approaching the conditions of 
 service of the established class, we do not want to press it on the point of 
 sick pay, because although a man may be employed at the Post Office he 
 may bring on his sickness through overwork in other employment, and 
 then it would scarcely be fair that the Post Office should be called on to 
 support that man during a sickness so incurred. I think that if an aux- 
 iliary postman who does six hours a day had two-thirds of his wages 
 as sick pay th.at would meet the needs of the case. I do not think it is fair 
 that we should have no sick pay at all. A man might break down through 
 liis work at the office, even although he is an auxiliary. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you mean he should receive sick pay to the extent of 
 two-thirds of what he is receiving from the Post Office? 
 
 A. Yes ; an established man gets full pay <luring sickness, while an aux- 
 iliary postman at the present time gets nothing. I would give an aux- 
 iliary two-thirds of his wages. I now come to the question of service being 
 allowed to count for pension. The rule of the Service in the Post Office 
 is that no service counts until after the date of the Civil Service certificate. 
 I have instituted inquiries on that point, and I have come to the conclusion 
 that the Superannuation Act would warrant a more liberal interpretation than 
 has hitherto been placed upon it. I think in the past it has been tlie 
 custom not to recognise any service where the wages have been as much as 
 10s. per week, or the work six hours per day, with six days to the week. 
 That has been the custom in some other branches of the Civil Service. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You might qualify that statement a little. Tliere is a 
 clause in the Superannuation Act which says that when the service done
 
 310 Alex. M'Laren, Glasgow. 
 
 before the issue of the certificate is of the same class, and is full-time ser- 
 vice, then it may be counted in calculating the pension ; that is to say, 
 tliat if an auxiliary served as many hours before he got his certificate as he 
 did afterwards, and if his work were identical both before and after, tlien 
 it could be counted for pension. 
 
 A. I was unaware of the distinction, of course, but I would ask it to be 
 considered whether the Superannuation Act, even apart from the representa- 
 tions made by Mr. Walsh, could not possibly be more liberally interpreted 
 by the Department. I have a case in point. I said in my evidence that most 
 of our auxiliaries are young men, and in saying so I was quite right ; but 
 I tliink we have one old man whose age is 66 years. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then tliat is not the case of the postman who died be- 
 fore he could serve 20 year.s ? 
 
 A. No ; it was Dr. Wilson who said in his evidence that the severity of 
 the Post Office work killed the men off more quickly than the work of any 
 other branch. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I am rather glad there is a survivor. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness : I should like to give the particulars of that case. In Glasgow 
 there is a man named M'Alpine, who joined the Service in 1859, and he has 
 been almost continuously in the Service since then. I have known him since 
 1885, and he has been working six hours a. day. He has put in about 55 
 years' service. There was a broken interval of nearly 10 months, but he 
 never had any holidays, and if that interval were written off as a holiday, 
 his service might be put down as a pretty continuous one since 1859. Now, 
 that man, notwithstanding the valuable service he has done, may be turned 
 adrift by the Department without a penny of compensation for his work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Has he any trade of his own? 
 
 A. Yes ; he is an exception to the rule in that respect. He is the only 
 one of the old men left who were foolish enough or inclined to do two 
 day's work in one. He must have had a cast-iron constitution or he would 
 never have stood it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: I am afraid that under the Superannuation Act that would 
 be a fatal bar to his being granted a pension. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Yes ; th.at is so. 
 
 The Chairman : What is his occupation ? 
 
 A. He used to assist in a baker's shop when I first knew him. I cannot 
 say for sure what his occujjation is now. I think he works in some ware- 
 house or other. Another point which I wish to bring under the notice of 
 this Committee is with regard to the subsequent service of auxiliary post- 
 men. I pointed out in my statement on the wages question that it takes an 
 auxiliary postman an average of seven years before he gets 20s. a week ; 
 that is the case in Glasgow. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Before he gets 20s. ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Including his auxiliary service ? 
 
 A. Yes, including that, and I submit that it is not at all fair. 
 
 Q. You say the men would be four years in the auxiliary service? 
 
 A. Yes, four years in the auxiliary ; and I say that 20s. is not a fair wage 
 after seven years' service. It only takes seven years for a man to learn 
 a trade, and "then -he would get at once full wages. 
 
 Mr. Smith : How old w^ould he be when he got the 20s. ? 
 
 A. Well, he goes in at 17, and that is putting it very low. Our Post- 
 master will not take them under 18 if he can possibly help it. The inspector 
 does not like to employ lads so young if he can get older ones, and we quite 
 agree with the reasonableness of that view. But there are times of great 
 pressure, such as election times, when they are compelled to take boys 
 Avlio are not more than 16 years of age. As a rule, however, it is between 
 17 and 18 years of age that boys leave the telegraph department for the 
 letter-carrying department. Thus, a lad of 17 entering the Service must 
 take seven years before he becomes a postman at the wage of £1 per week.
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wages. 
 
 3ll 
 
 In my statement on the Wages Question I stated it took a new entrant 
 seven years' service to attain the wage of 20s. per week. For the purpose 
 of illustrating the slowness of the rate of increment, and that the case of 
 Glasgow is by no means an isolated one, the following tabular statement 
 has been prepared. This table shows the number of postmen who are 
 employed on full-time duty and in receipt of less than 24s. per week. (Date 
 of information, August, 1895) : — 
 
 Towns 
 (Typical Cases). 
 
 Number cf 
 Postmen 
 on Whole 
 Time Duty 
 
 and in 
 
 receipt of 
 
 less than 
 
 a4s per 
 
 week. 
 
 Average Service 
 
 (including 
 
 Auxiliary 
 
 Service, but 
 
 not Telegraph 
 
 or Messenger 
 
 Service). 
 
 Average 
 Weekly 
 Wages 
 (includ- 
 ing 
 Stripe 
 Money). 
 
 Average 
 Age. 
 
 
 Years 
 
 Months. 
 
 
 Birkenhead and Sub-Offices, 
 Bradford (Yorks), 
 Brighton, - - - - 
 Bristol, - - . . 
 (^amliridue, - - . - 
 Cardiff, ^ - - . . 
 Grimsby, - - . - 
 Harrogate, - - - - 
 
 Hull, 
 
 Leeds, . - . - 
 
 l^ottingham and S.O.S., 
 
 i'ly mouth, - - - - 
 
 Portsmoutl), 
 
 Beigate, - - . . 
 
 Southport,, 
 
 Stafford, - - - . 
 
 Stockport, - - - - 
 
 Worcester, - - - . 
 
 Worthing, - - - - 
 
 P^dinburgh, 
 
 Aberdeen, - - - . 
 
 U.undee, - - . . 
 
 Inverness, - - - - 
 
 Paisley. .... 
 
 Belfast, - . . . 
 
 Cork, 
 
 94 
 53 
 20 
 
 151 
 U 
 77 
 20 
 18 
 20 
 
 167 
 69 
 39 
 24 
 16 
 24 
 20 
 19 
 20 
 20 
 
 114 
 36 
 17 
 27 
 17 
 40 
 16 
 
 4 
 5 
 5 
 4 
 5 
 4 
 4 
 
 t 
 
 4 
 4 
 
 7 
 
 9 
 5 
 4 
 7 
 4 
 9 
 3 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 5 
 '4 
 7 
 
 4 
 2 
 
 8 
 7 
 (! 
 11 
 7 
 6 
 2 
 
 6 
 4 
 5 
 
 10 
 3 
 9 
 2 
 2 
 9 
 3 
 
 11 
 4 
 3 
 3 
 3 
 
 11 
 
 19/1 
 
 20/ 
 20/ 
 
 19;5| 
 
 19/2 
 
 19/10 
 
 18/10 
 
 18/2 
 
 18/10 
 
 18,7^ 
 
 17/6| 
 
 18/6 
 
 19 11 
 
 21/1 
 
 20/6 
 
 20/5 
 
 18/2 
 
 20/8 
 
 19/1 
 
 19/3 
 
 20/4 
 
 19/ 
 
 19/2 
 
 19/2 
 
 17/6 
 
 25 
 
 23 
 
 27 
 
 25. i 
 
 25i 
 
 24^ 
 
 22^ 
 
 27^ 
 
 23| 
 
 24 
 
 26^ 
 
 23 1 
 
 29J 
 
 27- 
 
 29 
 
 27| 
 
 23 
 
 28 
 
 21f 
 
 24a 
 
 22^ 
 
 24 
 
 25 
 
 23i 
 
 25| 
 
 Mr. Walpole: How many auxiliaries are there at Glasgow with four 
 years' service? 
 
 A. I do not know definitely. 
 
 Q. Would there be 50? 
 
 A. No ; I think not. 
 
 Q. What service has a senior nr.an? 
 
 A. He has over four years, I think. A number of the senior men are 
 employed on full-time duties as substitutes, but months may elapse before 
 a vacancy arises in the established class. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is it a common thing for auxiliaries to refuse established 
 appointments ? 
 
 A. No ; it is not a very common thing ; but cases have been known 
 where the men prefer to leave the Service rather than take an established
 
 312 Ai-Kx. M'Lahkn', Glasfxow. 
 
 ai){)ointment. Of coiirse, it iimst also he admitted that some men become 
 auxiliary postmen who have no intention whatever of giving their full 
 time to the De})artment. Cases have been known of students attending 
 Glasgow University who have found it convenient to l)e auxiliary postmen. 
 These are not typical cases ; they are exceptif)ns to the rule. We do not 
 want to legislate for exceptional cases, but rather for the average typical 
 case. We think tlnit the service which an auxiliary jjostman puts in should 
 ]>e reckoned, and that his initial wage as an estiiblished postman should be 
 increiised in proportion to the auxiliary service. In the list of headings 
 wliich I submitted, I put it down that he should at once have two years' 
 increment, and I find that some of the men in the correspondence before me 
 support that view. But in other tt)wns there is not unanimity of opinion 
 upon the point. My own view is tiiat it would be a very fair concession 
 to make, that if an auxiliary postman works as much as six hours a day he 
 should have two years' service reckoned to him for each three years' employ- 
 ment he has done l)efore getting on the established list. That would mean 
 as a rule that his initial wage would at once have two increments added to it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then you would give him two years out of three? 
 
 A. Exactly. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are there many postmen in Glasgow who get on at the 
 initial rate without going through tiie initial stage? 
 
 A. None at all, except at son\e of the Glasgow sub-offices, and that 
 is a sore point with our auxiliaries, l)ecause in some of the (JIasgow sub- 
 offices army reserve men are drafted straight in, and in a manner passed over 
 the heads of the auxiliary postmen. There seems to be some discrepancy 
 on tills point in the Postmaster-General's annual report, for it would seem 
 to be suggested that the soldiers have the first claim, even apart from the 
 claims of tiie auxiliaries. Now, I am advised by the local officials in 
 Glasgow that telegraph messengers have the first claim. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I rather think that the reference in the report affects 
 London. It is pointed out that it is impossible to enforce the rule where 
 there are a large number of auxiliary men. 
 
 Witness : Practically this is what takes place in Glasgow — in the sub- 
 offices around Glasgow — vacancies are given to army reserve men. I do 
 not say it is the custom, for I have no statistics to put in. But it fre- 
 quently occurs that army reserve men are appointed in preference to aux- 
 iliary postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You can take it from me that the rule is to accept the 
 senior in the Service. 
 
 A. And as far as the head office in Glasgow is concerned, I am satisfieil 
 that that rule is carried out. I make no complaint about that, and I 
 would not care to suggest that it should lye literally carried out in the sub- 
 olfices also. As illustrating the long time which our men in Glasgow 
 take to reach a fair living wage, I have compiled a tabulated statement 
 liero. which I propose to put in. I find that in Leeds there is not only an 
 auxiliary class, but there is an intermediary junior class, which further 
 inii)edes progress. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : We have practically decided to abolish that. 
 
 Witness : I am very glad to hear it ; but it does not alter the fact that 
 a number of those at the foot of the establislied class have taken a very long 
 time to get to a decent wage. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Yes ; that is so. 
 
 Witness : In Leeds, I am informed that in August. 1895. there were 
 167 esta,blished postmen getting under 24s. a week, and that the mean of 
 the whole lot of wages was 18s. 7^d., the average age of the men being 
 24 years of age. Of course, in stating that I mclude wages only ; I do not 
 include the other contingent advantages. I do not think that IBs. 7^d. a 
 week for a man 24 years of age is by any means an excessive wage, and 
 I am glad to see that the Committee are admitting some of our points.
 
 Auxiliaries' Case — Duties — Wages. 313 
 
 Now, with regard to postmen liaving other employment, I tliink there is 
 another point of view in which that might be looked at. Personally I do 
 not think it is very desirable that postmen or other men in Government 
 employ should be allowed to crowd the unemployed market, for it may be 
 the means at times of the Government coming into direct conflict with the 
 organised labour of the country, and with the great Trades' Unions. I do 
 not think the Post Office should foster this system of a man having two 
 jobs at the same time. It would be much better did he get an adequate 
 wage for one job, and I should say that when an auxiliary postman does 6^ 
 hours' duty per day he should have the benefit of the doubt, and be allowed 
 to call it an eight hour duty, especially in Glasgow, where the work is so 
 very hard. I think I have exhausted my statement now, and I have to 
 thank you, gentlemen, for the very patient hearing you have given me. 
 I hope that one result will be that the conditions of service for auxiliary 
 postmen will be made to approximate more nearly to the conditions that 
 obtain in other classes. I beg to hand to the Committee a list of typical 
 case* of duties which I should like to see incorporated in my evidence, as 
 they go to show the buna fide character of the evidence which I have given. 
 
 TYPICAL CASES OF PROVINCIAL AUXILIARY DUTIES. 
 
 Glasgow. — 524 establislied postmen, 204 auxiliary postmen. Example — 
 Two attendances, viz., 5.45 a.m. to 9.15 a.m., and 6.45 p.m. to 9.15 p.m. ; 
 total daily work about 6 hours ; covering time about 15^ hours ; wages 14s. 
 per week, being about 4^d. per hour. 
 
 Paislfa'. — ^Example — One attendance for morning delivery from 6.15 
 a.m. to 9.15 a.m. ; total daily work ab»ut 3 hours ; wages 7s. per week, 
 being about 4^d. per hour. 
 
 Aberdeem. — Exam])le — Two attendances, viz., 6 a.m. to 9 a.m.. and 6 
 p.m. to 8 p.m. ; total daily work about 5 hours : wages 12s. per week. 
 
 Du.VDEE. — Example — Three attendanees, viz., 6 a.m. to 8.30 a.m., 12.15 
 p.m. to 2.30 p.m., and 4.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. ; total daily work 6^ hours; 
 wages 14s., being about 4|d. per hour. 
 
 Pehtii. — Example — Three attendances, spread over the whole day, as 
 follows: 7.30 a.m. to 10.30 a.m., 4.20 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., and 7.30 p.m. to 
 9.30 p.m. 
 
 SoUTHAMPTOX. — Example — -Two attendances, viz., 7.45 a.m. to 11 a.m., 
 and 5.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. ; total daily work 5| hours ; wages 13s. per week. 
 
 Boston (Linc). — Exiuiple — Two attendances, viz., morning delivery and 
 night collection : total daily work about 4^ hours ; wages 8s. per week. 
 
 Croydon. — Example — Two attendance.s. viz., 6 a.m. to 8.30 a.m., and 6 
 p.m. to 8 p.m. ; total dailv work about 4^ hours ; wages 12s. per week. 
 
 Keighley. — Example — Two attendances, viz., 6.15 a.m. to 9.15 a.m., and 
 6.15 p.m. to 8.45 p.m. ; total daily work 5^ hours ; wages 12s. per week. 
 
 Bradford (Yorks.). — Example — Two attendances, viz., 9.35 a.m. to 12.45 
 j).m., and 6.40 p.m. to 8.20 p.m.; total daily work 4| hours; wages 
 13s. 6d. per week. 
 
 Bahuow-in-Furness. — Example — Two attendances, viz., 8 a.m. to 11.15 
 a.m, and 5.45 p.m. to 7.45 p.m. ; total daily work 5^ hours ; wages 12s. 
 per week. ' 
 
 Sunderland. — Example — Two attendances, viz., 5.50 a.m. to 9.15 a.m., 
 and 5.50 p.m. to 8 p.m. ; total daily work about 5 hours ; wages 12s. per 
 week. 
 
 Rochdale. — ^Example— Two attendances, viz., 6 a.m. to 9 a.m., and 6.40 
 p.m. to 9 p.m. ; total dailv work about 5| hours : wages 12s. per week. 
 
 Wrexham. — Example — -Two attendances, viz., 6 a.m. to 9 a.m., and 7.35 
 p.m. to 8.35 p.m. ; total daily work about 4 hours ; wages 10s. per week. 
 
 Htjddersfield. — Example — Three attendances, viz., 6 a.m. to 8.45 a.m., 
 6.30 p.m. to 8.20 p.m., and 8.40 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. ; total daily work 5^ 
 hours ; wages 12s. per week.
 
 314 Alex. M'Laren, Glasgow. 
 
 Beckenham. — Example — Three attendances, viz., 6.30 a.m. to 8.45 a.m. 
 4.30 p.m. to 5.30 p.m., and 7.55 p.m. to 11.15 p.m. ; total daily work 
 5^ hours ; ^vages 15s. per week. 
 
 Woolwich. — Example — Three attendances, viz., 6.35 a.m. to 8.20 a.m. 
 1.55 p.m. to 4 p.m., and 7.50 p.m. to 10.20 p.m. ; total daily work aboii> 
 6^ hours ; wages 16s. per week. 
 
 Seven Oaks. — Example — Tiiree attendances, 10.10 a.m. to 11.45 a.m., 4 
 p.m. to 5.50 p.m., and 7 p.m. to 9.20 p.m.; total daily work 5J hours; 
 wages 13s. per week. 
 
 Old Charlto.v. — Example — ^Three attendances, viz., 6.50 a.m. to 8.20 
 a.m., 10.50 a.m. to 12.15 p.m., and 7.40 p.m. to 9.50 p.m. ; total daily 
 work about 5 hours ; wages 12s. per \Teek. 
 
 Weston-Supeu-Make. — Example — Three attendance-s, viz., 8 a.m. to 12.30 
 p.m., 6.15 p.m. to 7.30 p.m., and 8.30 p.m. to 9.45 p.m. ; total daily work 
 about 7 hours ; wages 13s. per week. 
 
 Hereford.— Example — Three attendances, viz., 6 a.m. to 9.15 a.m., 6.15 
 p.m. to 7 p.m., and 7.30 p.m. to 9.45 p.m. ; total daily work about 6^ 
 hours ; wages 14s. per week. 
 
 Gloucester. — Example — Five collections about an hour each, spread over 
 the whole day ; wages 12s. per week. 
 
 Trowbridge. — Example — Four attendances, viz., 8 a.m. to 9.10 a.m., 
 12.5 p.m. to 12.50 p.m., 1.30 p.m. to 1.50 p.m., and 8.20 p.m. to 9 p.m. ; 
 total daily work about 3 hours ; wages 9s. per week. 
 
 Cork. — Example — Two attendances, viz., 7.30 a.m. to 10.30 a.m.. and 
 2.45 p.m. to 5 p.m. ; total daily work 5^ hours ; wages 12s. 6d. per week. 
 
 St. Leonards-ox-Sea. — Example — Three attendances, viz., 6.45 a.m. to 
 9 a.m.. 9.30 a.m. to 11.30 a.m., and 12.15 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.; total daily 
 work about 6 hours ; wages 15s. per week. 
 
 AUXILIARY POSTMEN (PRO\^NCIAL).— TYPICAL CASES OF 
 EXTREMELY LOW WAGES. 
 
 Case No. 1. — ^Llanelly — ^Attendances 6.15 a.m. to 9 a.m., 9.30 a.m. to 
 11.30 a.m., and 6.45 p.m. to 7.45 p.m. ; total amount of work daily 5| 
 hours ; covering time 13^ hours ; number of attendances 3 ; wages 10s. per 
 week, being about 3^d. per hour. 
 
 Case No. 2. — Cosham (Hants.) — Attendances 6.30 a.m. to 8.30 a.m., 4.30 
 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., and 7 p.m. to 7.40 p.m. ; total daily work 4| hours ; 
 covering time 13 hours ; number of attendances 3 ; wages 8s. per week, 
 being about 3^d. per hour. 
 
 Case No. 3. — Bala, R.S.O. — Attendances 6.45 a.m. to 9 a.m. ; total daily 
 work 21 hours ; wages 4s. per week, being about 3|d. per hour. 
 
 Case No. 4. — ^Basingstoke — Attendances 6.30 a.m. to 8.30 a.m., 9.30 
 a.m. to 10 a.m., 10.30 a.m. to 3.30 p.m., and 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. ; total daily 
 work 8j hours ; covering time 14j hours ; number of daily attendances 4 ; 
 wages lis. 6d. per week, being alx»ut 2|d. per hour. 
 
 Case No. 5. — Portsmouth — Attendances from 8.45 a.m. to 12 noon, and 
 
 5 p.m. to 7.15 p.m. ; total daily work 5^ hours ; covering time 7 hours ; 
 wages 10s. per week, being about 3|d. per hour. 
 
 Case No. 6. — G.u.ashiels — Attendances, 1.50 p.m. to 2.30 p.m., 3.15 p.m. 
 to 5.45 p.m., 6.15 p.m. to 6.50 p.m., and 9 p.m. to 10.30 p.m. ; total daily 
 work 5^ hours ; number of attendances 4 ; covering time 10 hours ; wages 
 9s. per week, being about 3^. per hour. 
 
 Case No. 7. — Dunblane, N.B. — Attendances, 6.45 a.m. to 12.30 p.m.. 
 and 6 p.m. to 7.45 p.m. ; total daily work 7^ hours ; covering time 13 
 hours ; number of attendances 2 ; wages 14s. per week, being about 3|d. 
 per hour. 
 
 Case No. 8. — ^Bridgnorth — ^Attendances, 5 a.m. to 9 a.m., 4.30 p.m. to 
 
 6 p.m., and 6.45 p.m. to 8.15 p.m.; total daily work 7 hoars; covering 
 time 15 hours ; number of attendances 3 ; wages 12s. 6d. per week, being 
 about 3|<1, per hour.
 
 WILLIAM MARTIN, Manchester. 
 
 Parcel Post. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, Feb. 17th, 1896. 
 
 Tlie next witness called was William Martin, postman, of ManchesUir, 
 vlio was examined as follows : — 
 
 The Chau-man : You are a Manchester postman? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. I understand you mean to speak about the Parcel Post S3'stem? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Are you a parcel postman yourself? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Q. Then you are an ordinary postman, I suppose? 
 
 A. ] am an ordinary postman subs'ituting for other postmen. 
 
 Q Are you in the auxiliarj^ or tht established service? 
 
 A I am acting as a substitute for a town postman at Manchester. 
 
 Q. Are you an auxiliary then? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Q. Then you are on the establisheil service? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. How do you mean you act as a substitute? 
 
 A. I do substitute duty for men wlio are away for sickness and other 
 reasons. 
 
 Q. You are a sort of reserve man then? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Do you get a regalur rate of p;iy for that? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, together with an allowance of 5s. a week. 
 
 Q. What is your period of service? 
 
 A. I was appointed in January, 1874. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say you are on a regular scale of wages, and get in 
 addition an allowance of 5s. as a substitute? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q, Are you kept continuously substituting for other men? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What have you to tell us about the Parcel Post? 
 
 A. It is in regard to the Parcel Post work done by letter-cai'rying post- 
 me)i. Oar complaint is about the weight we have to deliver. The Parcel 
 Post was established to meet the public convenience, and the railway com- 
 panies were guaranteed 55 per cent, of the postage received of the rail-borne 
 parcels. That has proved much, too high a rate for the service performed, 
 and the consequence is that the Parcel Post Service has been crippled by the 
 large percentage paid to the railway companies. Where the Parcel Post is 
 established it was bagun separately from the letter delivery, but shortly 
 afterwards it was found that the Parcel Post was not paying, or that it 
 was not working satisfactorily, so the separate basis of work was done 
 away with, and the duty was imposed on the letter-carrier postman. 
 
 The Chairman : But there is a strict limit as to the amount to be carried 
 by them, is there not? j _LA.
 
 316 William Mahtin, Manchester. 
 
 A. I am sorry to say it is not so in practice; it varies considerably in 
 places. Originally the intention was to have the parcels delivered separately 
 from tlie letters. But since then they have been superailded to the work 
 of letter-carrying, and the result has always been considered a very great 
 hardship by those who have to do the work. Tlie remedy adopted by the 
 Department was to put this extra work on u.s, and we say it is a very 
 unfair remedy. I would venture to point out that a contented service is 
 an efficient service, and that contentment cannot take place until the grie- 
 vances of our class are materially decreased. Now, I wish to lay before the 
 Cor/imittee the public view of the subject, and I may say at once that the 
 public are quite in accordance with our view on the matter. In the first 
 place, the}' recognise that the comljined delivery materially delays the deli- 
 very of the letters, which are inHuibely more important. I have here a list 
 of 118 offices where all tlie parcels are delivered with letters. I propose to 
 put that in. The offices are^Avr, Aberfeldy, Alva, R.S.O., Antrim, Apple- 
 by. Abbeyleix, Acock Green (fiirm.), Apgartli, R.S.O. (Yorks.). Blaj'don- 
 on-T\-ne, Bexlev Heath, Busby, Blantyre, Baliindallocli, R.S.O., Broom- 
 boro", Beccles, Broughty Ferr\', Broadbottom, Rothesay, Brighouse, Batlej', 
 Bar."staple, Bedale, Bathgate, Bridge of Allan, Burgess Hill, R.S.O. , Bala, 
 R.S.O., Betty"s-y-coed. Bingley, Berkeley, Comrie (Perths.). Coatbridge, 
 Castle Douglas, Chumleigh, Chathill, Chichester, Coshim, R.S.O., CorrLs, 
 R.S.O. , Cambuslang, Dartmouth, Dudley, Droitwich, Dungannon, Dudley 
 (Worcs.), Drymen, Dalkeith, Dumbarton, Dukinfield, Enniscorthy, Erith, 
 S.O., Fakenham, Godalming, Guerns^ey, Grivesend. Garstang, Grarth, Gos- 
 forth, Hallkirk, R.S.O., Heckmondwicke, Helensfjurgh, Holyhead, He\'wood, 
 Hollingworth. S.O., Harrington, R.S.O., Horncastle, Hamilton, Harwich, 
 Ho:)ley-on-Thames, Ipswich, Irvine, Invergordon, Jarrow-on-Tyne, .John- 
 stone, Kendal, Kildare, Kink's Lmgley, Lockerbie, Leek, Louth, L^Tid- 
 burst, Larne. Llanwyliog. R.S.O., Loftus, R.S.O., Mountain Ash, Maybole, 
 May. Maryhill, Malton. North Walsham, Newnham. Nantyglo, R.S.O., 
 Xorbeth. Xantgaredig. Omagh, Old Charlton, Pantardulais, Padstow, Prest- 
 wich. Palfield, R.S.O., Portadown. Perth. Peutre. Queenstown. Ruther- 
 gk'u. Renfrew, Kawt^^nstill, Ruscrea. St. German's. St. Asapii, Selly Oak, 
 Svvinton, Salt Ash. Spilsby, Slougli, Stretford, Sowerby Bridge, Staly- 
 bridge. Shipley, Stirling. A few of the above offices give a.ssistance if 
 over 55 lbs. Next, the public realise that this combinetl delivery endangers 
 tlie safety of the letters when the delivering bags are too full to be fastened. 
 Tlie public have been heard to cry " Shame " on the .system that requires 
 us to be laden like donkeys. I have here a letter from Crediton bearing out 
 that statement, and I can quite believe it from my own experience. 
 
 The Chairman : Tell us something about your own experience. 
 
 A. At Manche.st€r, where I come from — and I cannot speak with authority 
 ust now, because a revision has just been commenced — up till now the 
 ivstem of working has been altered so frequently that I do not know ex- 
 actly what it is. A fresh plan was commenced only last Monday. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : ^Yhat was it last month ? 
 
 A. At the- beginning of this month tlie men had to take out very frequently 
 as many as 14 or 15 parcels, and. as Mr. Maclaren has described, the work 
 is made very laborious. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Can you tell me at all the weight you had to take out 
 on any specific occasion? 
 
 A. I cannot recall to mind anj- particular occasion. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any particular occasion on which you had been unduly 
 laden ? 
 
 A. I have not taken any note at the time, because I never anticipated the 
 question would be asketl. 
 
 Q. Is there no practice of giving relief to postmen when they make com- 
 plaint of having too heavy burdens ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I think nine times out of ten it is refused. Of course, it is
 
 Parcel Post. 317 
 
 not always exactly the weight we complain of — it is the bulky nature of the 
 parcels. They may l)e band-boxes, or umbrellas, or fishing-rods, or other 
 parcels which are awkward to carry. There may be eggs, and all that kind 
 of thing. Parcels sometimes contain fruit. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But the average weight of the parcel will not be great? 
 
 A. Well, parcels may be carried u]) to 11 lbs. 
 
 Q. But the average weight of a pircel is under 3 lbs., is it not? 
 
 A. Well, in a manufacturing district like Manchester I should think it 
 would be heavier tlian that as a general rule. 
 
 The Chairman : Don't you know of any general rule about the weight to 
 Ije carried in Manchester? 
 
 A. Frequently we are told when we are applying for relief that there 
 is nobody at liberty to give us relief. As I say, in a manufacturing district 
 the average weight of parcels would be higher than the general average for 
 the country. 
 
 Q. Is it not the ordinary prictice that the postmen shall only carry Rarcels 
 wliore there are onh' 3 few to go out, and that when there is a considerable 
 number to be carried, special means are taken for their delivery? 
 
 A. I have a case where a man refused to take tliem out on principle, in 
 ordv'.' to test wliat the rule was. He refused to carry 40 lbs. weight, and 
 was reprimanded by the Brighton Postmaster, and threatened witTi severe 
 consequences if he repeated the attempt. I am not defending his action in 
 refusing to carry the parcels out, but he did it on principle, and that was 
 the result. 
 
 Q. Are not the parcels at Manchester generally delivered in a special 
 delivery ? 
 
 A. In the centre of the town. I believe. At the present moment there is 
 a parcel delivery by hand-cart immediately after the first letter delivery, 
 but after that hand-cart delivery the pircels are supposed to be taken out 
 by tho letter-carriers, while in tiie suburlis of Manchester these letter-carriers 
 carry out parcels even witii their first delivery. Tiie work, as I say, is 
 very laborious indeed. I understand that Manchester is the most importiiut 
 postal centre out of London, i liave a. complaint from Torquay on this 
 point. Tlie District (,'ouncil ineninri-.iliseil the P«jslinaster (leueral with 
 regard to the heaviness of t e postmen's burdens, and one statement in tiie 
 memorial was to the effect that i!, wis painfid to witness postmen strugglmg 
 under tlieir load.s. They added tiiat they were in favour of the parcels being 
 delivered separately. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What was the date of the memorial? 
 
 A. I have not the date, but it can be ol)tained from the official records. 
 It must Ije pretty recent, because tlie District Council has not l>een estal)- 
 lished very long. Postmen are tempted to ligliten their loads by delivering 
 parcels out of the course to unauthorised persons, and to deviate from die 
 pi escribed route. That, of course, is a serious matter in postal work, 
 where regularity is so essentiil. A man will deviate from his route in order 
 to gee rid of a heavy parcel, and consequently he delays the delivery of 
 '.etters. Postmen must deliver the surplus parcels the best way they can, 
 or if they do not do that, tliey leave tliem over till the next delivery, and I 
 say that that is a very improper method of disposing of the parcels. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Where have you got your facts from? 
 
 A. We sent out a schedule asking how the parcels were disposed of, 
 and correspondents have sent ma statements on the subject as to how these 
 things are done. I do not know it from my own knowledge ; I merely 
 repeat the information supplied to me. Here is a li^it of 20 offices where 
 postmen must deliver surplus parcels tlie best way they can, or leave them 
 over till next delivery: — Burgess Hill, R.S.O., Castleford, S.O., Fernda'e. 
 R.k.O., Fakenham, Holyhead, Hooley Hill, King's Langley, Limavady, 
 Lovi'estoft, Lame, Ovoca, Pontardulais, R.S.O., Porthcawl (Glam.), Rosi'vea, 
 i^f-Uy Oak (Birm.), South Sliields. Stone (Staff.), Stafford, Todmordeii 
 Watford.
 
 31<S AV^ii.LiA.M Maktin. Manchester. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Uo you say these are places where the postmen are told 
 they must deliver the parcels "the best way they can? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is the practice. 
 
 The Chairman : And supposing there are more than a man can carry out 
 ou his first delivery, do you say he has to take them out during the day? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I do not think that can be so? 
 
 A. The supervision must he very lax, or these things would not occur. 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge from your own experience of any such case, 
 have you? 
 
 A. No ; but I am speaking for the pi evinces, and it is on their behalf 
 that 1 am putting these matters forward. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that at any large place, such as Stafford or Watford, 
 postmen would be allowed to deliver parcels the best way they can, or even 
 to leave them over for a later delivery? Do you suppose the Department 
 would stand that for one moment? 
 
 A. I quite believe it. I have a letter here where assistance cannot be 
 procured because the payment allowed by the Dei>artment is not sufficient, 
 and tlien the Parcel Post is growing so rapidly that the arrangements made 
 some time ago may not be very suitable for the present time, and may not 
 suit tlie present exigencies of the Service. I believe the public, in nine cases 
 out of ten, will not make formal complaint out of sympathy with the post- 
 man, who is obviously overworked. Agiin, parcels of objectionable odour 
 and liquids liable to escape are carried in contact with letters, causing 
 public aimoyance. I have had to deliver a parcel of raw rubber ; the stench 
 was unendurable, and my bag was scented with it for days afterwards. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But is not raw rubber prohibited from being carried by 
 the Parcel Post? 
 
 A. Yes ; but unless you open a parcel you cannot tell what it contains. 
 The rubber may be wrapped up in such a way as to prevent any smell es- 
 caping at first, but when the parcel gets into a heated office the probability 
 is that it will begin to smell. Another com])l tint of the men is that of pu.sh- 
 ing heavy ladeu carts to railway stations tlirough mud. etc., whilst in 
 uniform. Tliey say it is degrading in the eyes of the public, and not cal- 
 culated to enhance his cleanliness. Parcel delivery by hand is antiquated ; 
 all other parcel-cariying concerns employ almost exclusively horses and 
 vehicles ; their long experience and commercial predilection is thus in strong 
 contrast to the method adopted by the P.O. The system is unbusiness-like, 
 and, we consider, wasteful, ina.smuch as horse-flesh is cheaper than human 
 flesh. Besides, if parcels are delivered separately from letters, the deliveries 
 need not be so frequent. From Worksop I have a note to say " It is not 
 infrequent for us to start on our afternoon walks loaded like packmen, with 
 our bag full of letters and parcels, and parcels slung across our shoulders." 
 From Old Charlton I have information to the effect that the delivery of 
 parcels by letter-carriers not only makes the work more fatiguing for the 
 men, but keeps them much longeron their walks, and my correspondent adds, 
 ' ' I have seen men come out of the office with their bags full, and parcels 
 tied round their bodies." A postman's legitimate work of collecting and 
 delivering letters, etc., is being constantly extended and increased. Parcels 
 have increased during the past 11 years in round numbers from 23 to 54 
 millions, and consequently justify a reversion to the original method of 
 collection and delivery separate!}'. I have a case here — typical of many 
 others — from Crediton, a town of 4,000 or 5,000 inhabitants, constantly ex- 
 tending by the erection of new buildings. There are only two postmen to 
 deliver the letters and parcels ; they deliver about 20 each daily at the same 
 time as the letters, and the public are loud in expressing condemnation of 
 the overworking system. This typical case from Crediton shows how the 
 work is done in many small towns. My correspondent there writes to say — 
 '■ Our work is very heavy. We take from our office to be delivered day by 
 <lay, parcels as well as letters. There are only two postmen at Crediton,
 
 Parcel Post. 319 
 
 and some days we have to deliver nearly 40 parcels between us. This makes 
 our work very hard. We are often wet through with sweat, and our arms 
 get dead with the weight of the parcels hanging on them. The public 
 when they see us thus laden, cry, 'What a shame it is to load the men in 
 such a manner !' " 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But if there are four deliveries a day, that only amounts 
 to five parcels each man for each delivery? 
 
 A. I question whether there would be so many deliveries at a place like 
 Crediton. There might possibly be only two or three. Now, at Brighouse, 
 the letter-carrying postmen three years ago used not to deliver parcels, but 
 now the practice has been altered, and they are required to deliver them, 
 which necessitates a lot of extra work on them. The same practice is in 
 force at Manchester. Here, as at Brighouse, we are not allowed to deliver 
 parcels in the private boxes at the P.O. The postmen have to carry them out 
 and deliver them at the offices, and this in many cases may entail numerous 
 journeys in order to catch the people at home ; it may necessitate calling 
 three or four times a day. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But these calls are all included in the 8 hours' day, are they 
 not? 
 
 A. Exactly; but very often the 8 hours' work extends to nine, and, as 
 has been pointed out by Mr. Dowling, this, to a great extent, is the cause 
 of the difficulty. I ha.ve here a copy of a notice exhibited on the board of 
 the Postmaster's office at Newcastle-on-Tyne. It is as follows: — "Serious 
 complaint is made that frequently parcels brought in by the collectors from 
 the town and receiving offices are in a damaged condition. There can be no 
 excuse whatever for damage to parcels whilst in the possession of the col- 
 lectors, and they must so arrange as to prevent breakage with hard substancts, 
 or in placing their bags on the ground. Also, special attention must be given 
 to the condition of each parcel when received, and the attention of any 
 sub-postmaster must be drawn to any damage. After this notice,- if any 
 parcel is damaged whilst in the possession of the collector, he will j^i'obably 
 be called upon to pay the cost, and further punishment for carelessness will 
 assuredly follow." We contend that damage is inevitable whilst we deal 
 with them in the present method. Parcels are damaged by too much hand- 
 ling, especially edibles or breakables, whilst many other kinds of parcels 
 when crushed in satchels or carried by hand are damaged thereby. Parcels 
 are damaged by exposure to weather by being set down in the street to 
 open a gate or pillar-box. They may have to be put down in the snow or 
 rain. The carrying of parcels up and down stairs in towns, and swinging 
 about suspended from shoulders for long distances in suburban or rural 
 districts is also liable to cause damage. Parcels are also damaged in crowded 
 streets when hurrying along. The removal of these objections would un- 
 doubtedly witness a vast increase in the number of parcels despatched. 
 That, of course, is a matter of opinion. It is my opinion, and the opinion 
 of a good many people, that parcels — especial!}'' those containing eggs, 
 flowers, and fruit — are damaged in the crowded streets. Frequently persons 
 used to send fruit by Parcel Post, with the result that the juice ran out and 
 damaged everything in the bag. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I have known even the fruit itself to disappear from 
 the parcels. (Laughter.) Do you mean to say that the limit of the parcels' 
 weight is 11 lbs. ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That is the limit of weight for individual parcels? 
 
 Mr. Smith : What do you consider should be the limit of weight that a 
 parcel postman should be expected to carry? 
 
 A. I have cases where there do not appear to be any particular limit at 
 all. Postmen have to do the best they can. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say you never heard of a limit of that kind? 
 
 A. I am referring to places wliere there is no limit. Even in places where
 
 320 William Maktin, Manchester. 
 
 there are limits, they have no balances on whicli the bags of the postmen 
 can be weighed. 
 
 Q. I thought you said there were no limits? 
 
 A. I said there were not limits in ail ca.seB. 
 
 Q. Is there a limit in Manchester? 
 
 A. There is no fixed limit there. We were told that we v ould only have 
 to take out a few parcels, but I find that in many cases a man has to take 
 out eight or nine, and even more than that. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose tliat a great many of the parcels that now go 
 by Parcel Post used to go by Book Post? 1 am referring to the very small 
 ones. Books, etc., can now be sent more cheaply bv Parcel Post, can they 
 not? 
 
 A. No doubt. 
 
 Q, In the old days there was no Parcel Post, and then the parcels went 
 by Book Post, did thej- not? 
 
 A. Yes ; but they were frequently sent by railway as well. I should 
 think there was only a small portion then by Book Post of what now goes 
 by Parcel Post. I have been in the Service 22 years or more, and I do not 
 remember anything like the same proportion. 
 
 SUGGESTED SCHEME OF RELIEF. 
 
 In towns and populous centres horses and vehicles should be employed 
 almost exclusively on Parcel Post work. Rural railway stationmasters 
 should deliver all parcels within a short radius of their location, in considera- 
 tion of the large revenue derived by them from the carriage of post parcels. 
 This would not be so much of an innovation when it is understood that 
 st<itionmasters at most stations already transact certain postal business. 
 The rest of the district should be served by mounted postmen. 
 
 ]SIr. Walpole : Perhaps the railway people would object to that. 
 
 A. They have been forced before now to do things — they ought to do 
 what is right. I would suggest that balances should be supplied at all 
 delivery offices, and that no postman on a near walk be permitted to take 
 out more than 35 lbs. weight, including both parcels and letters, or 25 lbs. 
 on a distant walk. At many offices there is no means of accurately ascer- 
 taining the weight, consequently there is much doubt and diversity of 
 opinion on the subject. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What is your suggestion about these two weights? 
 
 A. I would suggest that no postman be permitted to take out a com- 
 bined weight of more than 35 lbs. for a near walk, or 25 lbs. on a distant 
 walk. I hear from Prestwich that their great grievance at the office there 
 is that the men have no means of ascertaining the exact weight they are 
 called upon to carry. The delivery of parcels greatly impedes the delivery of 
 letters, and the postmen cannot get back to the office by the right time when 
 tliey are burdened by parcels. 
 
 POSTMEN'S REASONS FOR EXEMPTION. 
 
 Parcel Post work militates against a postman officially because mistakes 
 therein are recorded against him. Where parcels are numerous some post- 
 men leave them in the office till they have completed their deliveries, then 
 return to the office and deliver surplus parcels generally in their own time ; 
 others, to avoid the double journey, overburden themselves, thus inflicting 
 physical injury on themselves ; whilst others deviate from prescribed routes 
 by' permission. In any case, it is discreditable to the Department. I have 
 here a list of 45 offices where special delivery of parcels is made after com- 
 pleting ordinary delivery — generally in man's own time — when parcels are
 
 Mr. S. WRIGHT, Leeds, 
 
 Representing the case of Promotion and Junior Postmen.
 
 Parcel Post. 321 
 
 numerous. They are: — Ayr, Ashby-de-Ia-Zquch, Aberfeldy, Aigburth, 
 Broughty Ferry, Broadbottom, Bridge of Allan, Berkeley, Coventry, Castle- 
 ford, iS.O., Chorlton-cuin-Hardy, Cookstown (Ireland), Dartmouth, Ennis- 
 corthy, Eccles, Heckmondwike, Harrington, R.S.O., Huntly, Irvine, Jarrow- 
 on-Tyne, Johnstone, Kildare, Loughboro', Luton, Liverpool (in some cases), 
 Lockerbie, Leek, Louth, Ludlow, Leominster, Llanwyllog, R.S.O., Melton 
 Mowbray, Maybole, Portadown, Perth. Pentre, Queenstown, Rothesay, 
 Renfrew, Swinton, Salt Ash. Uddingston, Widnes, Walsall, Yeovil. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : What do you mean by that ? What do you mean by 
 saj'ing they are delivered in a man's own time? Does it not all come 
 within the 8 hours' work? 
 
 A. Xo. sir ; a man has to do it after he has completed his ordinary 
 work-. He has to go out again in order to deliver the parcels. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you mean that in tliese offices it is a regular thing, at 
 certain periods of the year, such as Christmas, etc., for the men to liave to 
 do this? 
 
 A. I believe it is a regular thing that whenever it happens there are too 
 many parcels for a man to take out on his ordinary delivery he has to 
 return after that delivery and take out the surplus parcels. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know that of your own knowledge? 
 
 A. I do not. It is simply information supplied to me. 
 
 Q. Now, in the information supplied to you, does it not say this, that it 
 is only done when the parcels are numerous? 
 
 A. They are my own words — " when the parcels are numerous." 
 
 Q. And, therefore, it is limited to cases when there is pressure? 
 
 A. I have here a list of 31 offices where the men deviate from the ordinary 
 route in order to dispose of heavy parcels, thus causing irregularity of ser- 
 vice. I will put it in. List of 31 offices where men deviate from ordinary 
 route in order to dispose of heavy parcels, thus causing irregular service: — 
 Busby. Beccles, Blackburn, Bradford (Yorks.), Burslem, Bacup, Barnard 
 Castle, Cosham, Devonport, Dalton-le-Furness, Darlington, Dukinfield, 
 Felixstowe, Galashiels, Kilmarnock, Kendal, Kildare, Motherwell, Maryhill, 
 Northampton, Norwich. Newton Abbot, Oban, Prestwich, Plymouth, Perth, 
 Portsmouth, Taunton, Weston-super-Mare, Worksop, Walton-le-Edge. Here 
 also is a list of 56 offices where undelivered parcels frequently cause special 
 journey back to office: — Ayr, Ashby-de-la-Zouch, Aberfeldy, Aigburth, 
 Blaydon, T^Tie, Brighton, Bathgate, Bettws-y-coed, Bury, Barnard Castle, 
 Bournemouth, Belfast, Coatbridge, Castle Douglas, Crieff, Chorlton-cum- 
 Hardy, Cookstown (Ireland), Dartmouth. Dudley, R.S.O., Droitwich, Dun- 
 gannon, Dudley (Worcs.), Dalton-le-Furness, Dalkeith, Dumbarton, Ennis- 
 corthy, Eccles, Hollmgsworth, Huntly, Henley-on-Thames, Irvine, Inver- 
 gortlon, Liverpool (C), Lockerbie, Louth, Ludlow, Larne, Long Eaton, 
 R.S.O., Maybole, Maryhill, Newark. Newton Stewart, Nantyglo, Oban, 
 Prestwich, Porth (Clam.), Perth, Spilsby, Taunton, Tiverton, Uddingston, 
 Ulverston, Windsor, Wrexham, Walton-under-Edge, Worksop. This is a 
 very serious matter. The men are not allowed to deliver parcels in the 
 ordinary way like a letter, and consequently they are bound to bring them 
 back to the office, and in many cases they have to cover long distances in 
 order to bring them back to the office, whereas, if it had been a letter and 
 not a parcel, they could have dropped it into the nearest pillar-box. In 
 some cases where assistance is allowed it is not procurable because of the 
 smallness of the authorised allowance, viz., 4d. per hour, for which a speed 
 of four miles per hour would be required. That is contained in a statement 
 from Colis, Merionethshire. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you mean to say that a speed of four miles is required 
 from the men? 
 
 A. That is the general speed. 
 
 Q. Four miles required from a man who is on his feet delivering parcels? 
 
 A. Yes : it is not laid down in anv rule book that it should be four
 
 322 "William Martin, Manchester. 
 
 miles an hour, but it is generally understood that the men should cover four 
 miles in walking. 
 
 Q. How can a man who is delivering parcels and letters go four miles 
 an hour? 
 
 A. He can if he is a good walker. 
 
 Q. He could walk all right four miles an hour, but he could not stop 
 to deliver parcels and letters as well, and go at the rate of four miles an 
 hour ? 
 
 A. It is not said that he is expected he would do so, but it Ls presumed 
 that would be the official distance required of liiin. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the case that the official rate is a maximum of 
 three miles an hour? 
 
 A. I liave never heard that maximum stated ; it is generally understoofj 
 to be four miles. 
 
 Q. But you must know that four miles is an impossibility for a man thus 
 engaged ? 
 
 A. In a place like Colis there would not be many calls to make. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Whan a postman fails to deliver a i^arcel, what does he do 
 with it? 
 
 A. He has to brmg it back to the office as a rule. At Manchester we can 
 take them to a receiving office. 
 
 Q. And if it is a letter you can drop it into a pillar-box? 
 
 A. Yes ; Ave drop it in, in a return letter pouch. 
 
 Q. Is it a rule to ]e;xve the parcels at a receiving office? 
 
 A. Yes ; at Manchester it is ; but in this list of cases I have given it is 
 neces.sar_y to return to the head office. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : That is because there is no receiving office? 
 
 A. Yes. sir ; and therefore it is a great hardship to have to deliver these 
 parcels at all, because it imposes this duty upon the postmau. I have a 
 communication from Luton, which complains that they do not think that 
 enough pay is given to enable them to obtain relief when an extra weight 
 has to be carried. Then I have a statement from Halkirk, Caithness, which 
 says that, " Owing to the length of the journeys, the men find it impossible 
 to carry the weight in parcels and letters combined without keeping ponies 
 and traps, for which nothing is allowed by the Department for the support 
 of the animals or other expenses connected therewith." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know of any case where a postman is required to 
 keep a pony and trap for which he gets no allowance : 
 
 A. He is not requh-ed to keep it ; but he finds it impossible to do his 
 work M'ithout having a pony and trap, and for that he gets nothing from the 
 Department. I have another case in which there are often 24 parcels a 
 day to be delivered. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But they would be spread over several deliveries, and with 
 six men that would only mean four each man? 
 
 Witness : But 19 out of the 24 parcels might come on one man's walk. 
 At Fonnby parcels are delivered and collected together with letters without 
 regard to weight : half-a-hundredweight is frequently carried over two miles, 
 two-thirds parcels. At Waterloo and Aigburth it is somewhat similar. 
 The men ask that there shall be no compromise on this question, and they 
 warn me not to ask any money equivalent ; all they want is to get rid of 
 the work. I have some more cases here as illustrating our complaint. At 
 Grateshead the parcels are delivered by four men after completing their 
 letter deliveries ; 15 minutes interval only is allowed between in three cases, 
 and 30 minutes in the other ; the district is very hilly, and the work 
 very laborious. A horse and van should be used. At Huddersfield the 
 district is very hilly; number delivered by van weekly, 1.113 in 1886; the 
 number in 1894 by hand-carts was 2,157 ; work very laborious. Thus, al- 
 though the work has very nearly doubled, the man who had a horse to deal 
 with fewer parcels has this extra labour thrown on a few hand-carts. At 
 lSrewca,stle-"5n-Tyne the collectors strongly complain that no additional time
 
 i*arcel Post. ^23 
 
 is allowed when heavily burdened with parcels. Pontardulais, R.S.O., in 
 Wiiles, the postman carries parcels 9^ miles in a very mountainous district, 
 and "Can't keep up to time or keep dry." At Hassocks (Sussex), G. P. 
 Locke refused to carry 40 lbs. on delivery, three-fourths parcels, on the 51st 
 December last, the bulk of which had to be carried three miles. 6 lbs. 
 ^icre taken off, and lie was rejjorted to the head Postmaster at Brighton, 
 viio reprimanded and threatened him with severe punishment if he repeated 
 tlie ott'ence. 
 
 Mr. Smith : That is the case vou have alreadj^ mentioned ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And it occurred at Christmas time, did it noti 
 A. Yes ; on the 31st December. At Rochdale the " Z " delivery dockets 
 are unsatLsfactory, inasmucli as the honesty of some of the men was doubted 
 because they could not identify the recipients of the parcels two weeks later, 
 although the dockets were filled up in the manner required by rule. I have 
 the names of the postmen here to which that refers. Although I do not 
 think any record is required, the public should be called upon to sign forth- 
 Avith, and not to leave it to the man to write the name of the person who 
 receives the parcel. We do not know of any other concern that adopts this 
 method. At Harrogate, in the season, postmen make a parcel delivery 
 after the first letter delivery ; if late (which occurs often in the season) 
 then there is no time for breakfast. At Fakenham Postman Wright walks 
 19^ miles daily, serves seven parishes, and has an average weight of 30 lbs. 
 At Hullj Worcester, etc.. parcel postmen are prohibited from soliciting 
 Christmas gratuities, while at Manchester it Ls permitted. At Roscrea the 
 Avork is very hard ; the deith of the late postman (who wlieeled the baskets) 
 is locally attributed to overwork in this connection. Assistance was given 
 and was considered permanent, but it has been again withdrawn. At Roscrea 
 the arrangements have been altered pretty frequently. But the report made 
 to me is — " With regard to town work, it is hard for one man to bring two 
 or three heavy l)askets on a hand-cart, and mails besides. I may mention it 
 was counted too heavy some time ago, and tlve late town postman got lielp at 
 mid-da}', but this has l)epn discontinued in consequence of a new mail-cart 
 contract, Avhich brings an e<irly basket in tlie morning. All the same, I 
 often liave three baskets. The amount paid for extra help was 2s. per 
 Aveek, Avhicli goes to the neAv contractor. Sucli heavy Avork Avrocked the 
 late postman's life, and .sent him to an early grave. Help was given to me 
 for some time, and then taken away altogether." From Chathill, R.S.O. 
 (N'orthumberland), comes the report — "Application was made for hand-cart, 
 which was refused on the ground that the distance from post office to station 
 was only a sliort distance. The refusal to grant a hand-cart requires the 
 attendance of three postmen Avhere one could do." From Wicklow the 
 complaint is of having to wheel he;xvily laden liand-carts from the j)o.st office 
 to the railway, a distance of nearly one mile. ISIy correspondent adds — 
 " I supjjose AA'e are not alone in having to do this, but I Avould say tliat 
 it is a disgrace to ask men who liave to keep themselves respectable to 
 wheel a truck for a mile of road, all tlirough the dirt and mud. The very 
 poorest merchant living in a town like this would not ask his drunken 
 yardman to Avheel a truck to the raihvay station witliout providing him Avith 
 some assistance." I do aj^peal for a return to original methods. 
 
 The Chairman : You put it forward that all parcels imder all circumstances 
 should be treated separately? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But surely in country offices, where there are not many parcels to 
 deliver, you could hardly expect to have a separate delivery for parcels ? 
 
 A. In that case it would be difficult to make the arrangement, but in 
 large centres there ought to be no difficulty Avhatever. The Parcel Post 
 work is increasing very rapidly. In the rural districts the men might be 
 mounted, especially if the suggestion to raise the Aveight of the parcels is 
 adopted.
 
 324 William Martin, Manchester. 
 
 Q. But in a very large proportion of the rural districts now the postmen 
 do have carts? 
 
 A. But not in all. That is where the hardship comes in. 
 
 Q. May I take it your demand is that all parcel deliveries should be 
 separate in large centres, and tliat in rural districts and sparsely iahabited 
 places arrangements should be made so as to relieve the men to some extent 
 without giving an absoluk'-ly separate delivery? 
 
 A. We should like all parcels to be treated in a separate delivery. Tliat 
 vould be the only safe rule. 
 
 Q. Do you think that that is possible? 
 
 A. I think it could be done by mounted men, if the weight of the parcels 
 were increased. 
 
 Q. Why is it not possible to compensate the postmen for it? . 
 
 A. In a groat many instances the postmen objw;t to the work, even with 
 compensation. They con.sider it is too laborious, and they want to V>e 
 relieved of it. In my case, when I began to work for the Department there 
 was no parcel delivery, and I consider it has been imposed upon me. Had 
 I kntwn that I shoalil have been recjuired to carry parcels out like a porter 
 I don't think I should have t;iken the situation. But the work was imposed 
 upon mo many years afterwards. 
 
 Q. Have you understood that you were expected to carry only a certain 
 weight? 
 
 A. liut if a man is travelling along liko a pedlar with all sorts of things 
 liung around him, he does not hold a very elevated position in the eyes of the 
 jiublic and of the people amongst whom he lives. 
 
 Tiie Chairman : Thank you. 
 
 The witness then withdrew.
 
 JOHN SHIELDS SMITH. Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 Citizen Rights — Recognition of the Federation — Late Attendances- 
 Excessive PiTNISHJIENTS. 
 
 WESTjnNSTER, Tliursday, Feb. 20th, 1896. 
 
 John Shields Smith, of Newcastle, was next called and examined, as 
 follows : — 
 
 The Chairman : You are a Newcastle postman, I think? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the Service? 
 
 A. Twenty years on the 15th of this month. I came into the Service as 
 a telegraph messenger on the 15th February, 1876, and I entered the Post 
 Office in March, 1879. as a relieving i^ostman, receiving my appointment 
 on the 11th August, 1881. 
 
 Q. Of course you are at your maximum ? 
 
 A. Yea, my lord. 
 
 Q. Have you got your tlirea stripes? 
 
 A. No ; I have two stri^jes, and tli« third will not be due till August. 
 
 Q. You have not been in tlie Service (piite 15 j-ears? 
 
 A. No ; I have only been in 14 years and 6 months. 
 
 Q. What is your Jiav? 
 
 A. Twenty-eight shilliiiL^s and two stripes. 
 
 tj. You wish esi)ecially to spe<ik on the punishment question, do you not? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. I am representing the provincial postmen on matters 
 appertaining to discipline. 
 
 y. You have heard the last witness's evidence? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. I understand that the system of punishment in the provinces is quite 
 different to what it is in London? 
 
 A. Quite so ; in fact, I do not think that even the greatest authority on 
 punishment can give any decided opuiion as to which is the prevailing 
 system of punishment, there are so many different systems of punishment 
 throughout the United Kingdom. These are matters I wish to dwell upon, 
 and as my evidence is quite different from that of Mr. Boaler, I should 
 like to say I consider you will come to the conclusion that his evidence is 
 watery as compared with what I will lay before you. (Laughter.) I do 
 not wish to minimise Mr. Boaler's case ; it is strong enough. I admit. 
 
 Q. But you have a stronger case? Can you tell me what the rule is in 
 the provinces, say at Newcastle, as regards punishment? 
 
 A. I can give you the rule at Newcastle and some other towns. 
 
 Q. Will it come out in your statement? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. Previous to commencing that statement I may say 
 I was instructed to read up the question of citizen rights, and I did so in 
 order to enable me to bear out the contentions which I have to put for- 
 ward, but I have since learned that your lordship will not entertain that 
 question, and I was informed, after I had read it up. that I should not bei 
 allowed to put it in. But I saw in Tuesday morning's " Times " an inti- 
 mation to the effect that the scope of the Committee's Inquiry has been ex- 
 tended so as to embrace the question of citizens' rights.
 
 326 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 The Chairman : What I }iave said more than once is this, that we are not 
 empowered to go into questions whicli aflFect the Civil Service as a whole ; 
 but if you can show us any point on wliich the Post Office Service stands 
 at a disadvantage as compared with other branches of the Civil Service, 
 that would be a matter for our consideration. What we have to 
 look into arc cases of exceptional treatment in regard to Post Office servants. 
 They undou])tedly can rightly be brought before us. We are not appointed 
 to inquire into matters affecting the Civil Service generally. 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; but I am informed that a paragraph appeared to the 
 effect I have stated in Tuesday morning's "Times." 
 
 Tlie Chairman : You must not take everything that appears in the 
 "Times" as gospel. (Laughter.) 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I saw tlie paragraph to which j'ou allude. I think it 
 was an account of a meeting of the Fawcett Association. So far as I know, 
 there is no authority whatever for the paragrapli. 
 
 The Chairman : I shall be hapj)y to read your statement on the question 
 of citizen rights if you will liand it to me. 
 
 Statement put in as follows : — 
 
 CITIZEN RIGHTS. 
 
 My Lord and Gentlemen, — The grave importance of the subject — citizen 
 rights — embracing as it does the civil liberties, increased duties and res- 
 ponsibilities of Civil Servants, demands tlie earnest consideration of all who 
 conscientiously desire the development of moral rectitude and intellectual 
 culture. The anomalous position of Civil Servants has been discussed with 
 more or less ability by many distinguished men inside and outside the 
 Imperial Parliament. Before I enter into the subject it will be necessarj'' 
 to define a citizen and hLs position in the State. I will take for a definition — 
 " A citizen is an individual having a share in the government of the State, 
 and the State is a number of citizens associated together for mutual benefit." 
 Our Government being, as it is, essentially democratic, elected by the people, 
 it naturally follows that the Government is just what the people make it. 
 and the only way to secure good government is to have good citizens, and to 
 make good citizens it is necessarj' to give tliem aUsolute freedom of associa- 
 tion with their fellows, and cultiva(le and encourage the development of the 
 physical, moral, and intellectual faculties, in order that they may exercise 
 the franchise honourably and justly. 
 
 Bosanquet, sjjeaking of the Greek cities, says : " Citizenship was obviously 
 and visibly a life, your whole life, with common dangers, common rasponsi- 
 bilities, common enjoyments, and common ambitions. Your happiness was 
 to fill satisfactorily a recognised place, and to be acknowledged by your 
 fellows as doing so." 
 
 I heartily concur ui these sentiments, believing as I do that it is the duty 
 and the common anibition of every good citizen to lie honoured with the 
 confidence of his fellows, and to actively assist in building up a sound and 
 healthy State. 
 
 This is a privilege enjoyed, and the rightful inheritance of every citizen 
 in the United Kingdom except Civil Servants. 
 
 I could quote extracts from many eminent authorities, such as Ruskin, 
 Bright, Socrates, Butler, Cicero, and others. I refrain, l>ecause I feel the 
 right of our claim cannot be disputed. 
 
 This brings me into the heart of my subject — the disabilities of Civil 
 Servants. Rule 81 in Town Postmen's Rule Book reads : — " You are al- 
 lowed to record your vote, if you have one, at a Parliamentary or Town or 
 County Council Election ; but you are not allowed to take any active part 
 in an election, or to serve on any committee having for its object to pro- 
 mote or prevent the return of any particular candidate, and you are also 
 prohibited from becoming a candidate for the County Councils." 
 
 I respectfully submit that this rule takes away from Civil Servants the 
 privileges and rights enjoyed by the vast majority of citizens. It narrows
 
 Citizen Rights — Recognition of the Federation. 327 
 
 and warps our judgment by confining our aspirations and actions witJiin 
 the narrowest limit. It denies us the right of becoming useful citizens by 
 preventing us from participating in that which is ennobling and elevating, 
 i.e., the association with men of lofty ideals, and actively pursuing a life of 
 usefulness. 
 
 The mischievous eflfect of this rule cannot be over-estimated ; its whole 
 tendency is degrading and paralysing, crushing worthy ambition instead of 
 fostering and encouraging its healthy outlet. 
 
 I have never seen or heard any sound reason given as to why Civil Servants 
 are deprived of their civil liberty. Three antiquated arguments have been 
 advanced, i.e., (1) State-paid servants; (2) the inducement to divulge official 
 secrets ; (3) advance selfish interests. These are arguments that have been 
 urged against our claim ; they are as unsound as they are ridiculous. 
 
 (1) The State is a number of people associated together for mutual benefit ; 
 Civil Servants form a portion of the Sfcite, as such perform a particular 
 work for the whole of the community, for which they receive a prescribed 
 stipend. After a servant has rendered the particular service required of 
 him, the Department has no right to control liis actions in other spheres of 
 life, so long as his actions are not detrimental to the Department in which 
 he serves, or against the laws of the country. Had this been in the Middle 
 Ages, and chattel slavery predominant, the autocratic action of the Post- 
 master-General would not be questioned. But we are supposed to be living 
 in an age of enlightenment and liberty, and are subjected to the same rents, 
 rates, and taxes as other citizens. The same penalties are inflicted for 
 infringement of Imperial laws and niimicipal bye-laws. We are compelled 
 to pay the aforesaid rates and taxes for the government of the people. Yet 
 we are not permitted to take an active interest in the spending of the same. 
 If it is riglit that we should pay rates and taxes, it is equally right that we 
 should have a say in tlie si^ending of our money. 
 
 On the other hand, if the Department is right in withholding our citizen- 
 ship, the Department ought to pay our rates and taxes. This will be 
 considered an impracticable idea. It is sound logic all the same, because I 
 hold that it is the duty and right of every citi/en to see that he is not taxed 
 unjustly, or made to pay more tho.n is necessary. If the Department denies 
 us the right to become active and responsible citizens, the Department ought 
 to pay the penalty. 
 
 As to the secr-nd reason — that of inducement to divulge official secrets — 
 I would respectfully point cut the sophistry of such nn argument. (1) There 
 are sufficient laws and rules to protect the Department, and punish anyone 
 who betrays the trust reposed in lum ; (2) were men inclined or tempted to 
 do so, the present disabilities will not prevent, but tend to induce ; (3) the 
 longer men are held in bondage the keener tliey feel their sores, and, in 
 consequence, wil) do in secret what they dare not do openly ; (4) if secrets 
 are not betrayed now they never will be by the extension of citizenship, 
 because the more liberty men are given tlie more loyal they become, duly 
 recognising their responsibilities and endeavouring to discharge them. 
 
 Dealing with the last reason — " The using of our power to advance selfish 
 interests " — I may say this contention is utterly nntenable, and can only be 
 looked at as an attempt to undermine and foil our endeavours after more fav- 
 ourable conditions. All progressive movements have been represented in 
 unlovely guise by reactionary opponents, but as the movement progresses 
 the moral sense of the people is being educated to regard the ideals aimed at 
 as worthy of attainment. Civil Servants claim to be as loyal to our insti- 
 tutions, as zealous in seeking the welfare of the people, and equally as unsel- 
 fish as any other section of the community. They are now possessed of the 
 power to advance their own interests ; they are wise to avail themselves 
 of the opportimity. It is the successive Postmasters-General who are res- 
 ponsible for this seeming selfishness by exercising arbitrary power over free 
 citizens, thus throwing them into a narrow groove of self-seeking. 
 
 Give them their rights and allow them to carry their ideas further, by
 
 328 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 educating themselves into the pros and cons of government — it will then 
 be found that they possess the requisite energy and ability to rise to a full 
 comprehension of their duties and privileges. John Knox says: "A fully- 
 equipped citizen needs less governing than an inferior one. The higher the 
 standard of citizenship the less governing it will require, and the ideal State 
 undoubtedly is one in which government is reduced to a minimum." 
 
 Although in recent years there has been some concessions granted to 
 Qvil Servants, i.e.. Parish Councils Act, postmen have shown their sincerity 
 by becoming candidates, several of whom have been elected councillors, and 
 discharge their new duties with distinguished ability. Still there is an in- 
 calculable wrong perpetrated by Parliament allowing the head of a State 
 Department to over-ride its lawful Acts, and autocratically prevent thousands 
 of lawful citizens from exercising their undoubted rights. 
 
 On June 20th, 1892, Sir Jas. Fergusson said — " He was asked by what 
 law or right he did so. He did it by right of duty which belonged to the 
 head of a great public Department." In April, 1893, Mr. Arnold Morley, 
 replying to Mr. MacNeil, said — "There was no actual Treasury minute on 
 the subject." May, 1893, the Solicitor-General said, in reply to Mr. Mac- 
 Donald — " That, so far as he knew, there were no Acts of Parliament un- 
 repealed which dealt specially with the electoral privileges of Civil Servants. 
 Whatever regulations were made with reference to the action of subordinate 
 officials in the Civil Service were made not under the authority of any 
 section of an Act of Parliament, but under the inherent authority of heads 
 of Departments, to make regulations for the discipline and government of 
 those under their control." 
 
 The foregoing answers amply demonstrate the legality of our claims. We 
 are deprived of our rights in tlie interests of discipline. I gravely question 
 whether it has the desired efFect. To my mind the result is quite the re- 
 verse ; it is a bad example for a disciplinarian to violate Parliamentary 
 laws. A great State Department and the laws of the country ought to be 
 in harmony, not in antagonism ; a power exercised under such conditions 
 cannot command that respect and obedience that it otherwise would do. 
 
 I confidently leave the question in the hands of this Committee, believing 
 that you wUl base your recommendations on the fundamental principle of 
 justice, and give to' Civil Servants full opportunities to develop the gifts 
 of nature, and become useful citizens. 
 
 RECOGNITION OF THE FEDERATION. 
 
 On behalf of the provincial postmen, I am refjuested to urge the claims 
 of the ''Postmen's Federation for official recognition. Taking a retrospective 
 view of postmen's agitations previous to the establishment of the Federation, 
 when postmen deplored and deprecated the conditions of their employment, 
 when all means of ventilating their grievances were closed, when they per- 
 formed their duties in an insipid sort of manner, and anxiously looked for 
 some redi-ess of their many grievances, the appointment of the Ridley Com- 
 mission in 1887 raised a feeling of hope, and numerous were the grievances 
 showered on the heads of that Committee, and great were the expectations of 
 redress. On its being made known that the Committee would not inquire 
 into the administration of the Post Office, a strong resentment was rampant. 
 It was then efforts were made to organise. Here and there groups of postmen 
 were banded together, and agitations of a confused description were the order 
 of the day. Ic was not until the formation of the Postman's Union that any 
 real attempt was made to unite postmen into one solid organisation. The 
 disastrous failure of that Union taught postmen a lesson which they have 
 not been slow to profit by. The Postmen's Federation sprang into existence 
 in 1891. Without going into the history of the movement, I feel some 
 pleasure in saying that its claims for recognition are justified by the bene- 
 ficial influence it exercises over its members. 
 
 The untold advantages to be derived from such recognition are apparent. 
 Grievances that are now allowed to lie in abeyance would be dealt with effi-
 
 Citizen Rights — Recognition of the Federation. 329 
 
 ciently and satisfactorily as soon as they were felt, and in dealing with 
 questions as they crop up, the Society is doing a public duty. If unredressed 
 grievances are allowed unduly to accumulate there is always a danger of the 
 Service falling into a state of chaos. 
 
 As it is the duty of every workman to protect his labour, our society, 
 from the nature of things, partakes of the character of a vigilance or protec- 
 tive association rather than a regular trades union. That being so, the 
 Federation is in a position to disabuse many of the misconceptions and ima- 
 ginary grievances against the Department, and advance the real burning 
 questions that ought to be considered. 
 
 Many large employers of labour and many large trades unions find that 
 it is to their mutual advantage to form conciliation boards and boards of 
 arbitration, as witness the formation of concilLation boards with the North- 
 umberland and Durham Miners' Unions and the Masters' Associations — the 
 respective representatives meet and discuss matters of dispute without resort- 
 ing to a calamitous social war. 
 
 From personal experience I can vouch for the advantages of an exchange 
 of opinion between the official representative and the postmen's representa- 
 tives. The late Postmaster of Newcastle-on-Tyne, Mr. Thos. Hunter, and 
 the present Postmaster, Mr. Thos. Stevenson, have always received the 
 postmen's representatives courteously, and discussed questions at Jssue 
 thoroughly, thus gaining the respect of the men represented, and arriving 
 at a true conception of the deportment of the officers imder their control. 
 Our late Postmaster-General (Mr. Arnold Morley) has stated on several oc- 
 casions that we enjoy the same privileges as other trades unions ; had this 
 been so there would be no necessity to plead for official recognition. 
 
 I refer to a letter to the Elen Club on February 14tli, 1895, and a letter 
 to J. A. Murray MacDonald, April 1st, 1895, from which I have extracted 
 the two following passages : — " All the privileges which trades unionists 
 enjoy, and, in my opinion, rightly enjoy — are thus accorded to the unions 
 of postal officials." ... "I trust that you will see from the. whole tenor of 
 my letter that while I am hound to act on the rules which prevail through 
 the whole service of the Crown, I am anxious, as far as possible, to afford 
 all classes of employees in the Postal Service the fullest opportunity of ap- 
 proaching me on any subject which they may think affects their position, 
 their pay, or the conditions of their employment." 
 
 Undoubtedly there has been some liberty extended to Civil Service organ- 
 isations, but our liberties are nothing in comparison to the privileges en- 
 joyed by other trades unions ; at the same time I am of opinion that the 
 recognition we are now pleading for would have been granted by our late 
 Postmaster-General had it not been for what he considered the etiquette of 
 the Sei'vice. I submit that it is not conducive to good discipline that any 
 false notions of etiquette should stand between the rank and file and the 
 heads of a great State Department. The concessions already granted have 
 in no way been abused ; we have studiously encouraged officers to show 
 becoming respect to their superiors, and to serve the Department to the 
 best of their ability ; we have always used our power to advance the interests 
 of the Department by seeking the redress of its servants' grievances. There- 
 fore, I submit that it would be an additional source of efficiency to the 
 Service, and give general satisfaction to the men, were the Postmaster- 
 General to receive a deputation of postmen's representatives every six months 
 for the purpose of discussing grievances of a general nature. I sincerely 
 hope that this Committee will make this suggestion the basis of thei' 
 recommendations. 
 
 Witness : I will now proceed to deal with matters of discipline. In 
 dealing with matters of discipline it will be my duty to point out to you 
 the diverse and numerous forms of punishments for precisely similar irre- 
 gularities, the effect upon the efficient performance of public duties, and the 
 utter hopeless and depressed condition which it imposes upon the offenders
 
 330 John'Suields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 affected, and whilst I candidly acknowledge that discipline is necessary and 
 desirable for the good government of a large body of men, and the infliction 
 of some form of punishment advisable for the maintenance of such disci- 
 pline, I emphatically protest against the present confused and vexatious 
 methods adopted for punishing men for the most trifling irregularities, and, 
 according to the evidence I will lay before you, it will be demonstrated 
 beyond question that the Postal Service is in a state of chaos so far as its 
 servants are concerned, which calls fortli a searching inquiry and the vigor- 
 ous action of this Committee to jjlace the Service upon an equitable basis, 
 which will command the respect and obedience of all right-thinking men 
 who desire order. The greatest discontent prevails throughout the Service 
 because of the want of uniformity in the application of punishment. Some- 
 time.? an ofifence in one case is met with undue severity, another case under 
 identically the same circumstances is treated in quite a dififerent manner, 
 therefore it is obvious that so long as this haphazard system of adminis- 
 trating pimishment remains extant, so long will it engender resentment, and 
 militate against efficient service. And when it is remembered that postmen 
 are M^orking in absolute ignorance of the maximum penalty for many of 
 the multifarious otfences they may commit, our grievances will be all the 
 more apparent. 
 
 LATE ATTENDANCE. 
 There are several dififerent modes of punishment for this irregularity. 
 For illustration and brevity I will name three different towns, i.e., Cork, 
 Newcasth-on-Tyne, and Liverpool, where the punishment varies. The towns 
 I have mentioned are bv no me%ns isolated in their peculiar method of 
 awarding pimishment. I'hey are, indeed, typical cases. 
 
 Cork. 
 A late attendant at Cork is immediately penalised by the infliction of a 
 fine at the end of the quarter, the time lost by each man is added up, the 
 delinquents are then called upon to x>erforra extra duty to the extent of 
 double the time they have lost. The following cases, which occurred quarter 
 ending September 30th, 1895, will convey a correct impression of the punish- 
 ment meted out : — 
 
 Names. 
 
 No. of Lites. 
 
 Aggregate Loss. 
 
 Fine. 
 
 Extra Duty. 
 
 J. Roche, 
 
 5 
 
 28 minutes 
 
 lOd. 
 
 1 hour. 
 
 S. Horgan, 
 
 5 
 
 32 minutes 
 
 lOd. 
 
 1 hour. 
 
 J. Johnson, 
 
 5 
 
 40 minutes 
 
 1/- 
 
 1 hour. 
 
 The Chairman : Li each case a fine of 2d. is inflicted for a late attendance? 
 
 A. Yes. They are also liable to having their increment arrested and their 
 service stripe being witliheld. I respectfully submit that the punishment 
 is out of all proportion to the crime, and beg to draw your attention to a 
 statement made by our P.M.G. in the House of Commons on December 7th, 
 1893. He said—'" The rules dififer in dififerent offices, at some a fine, and at 
 others extra duty is imposed for late attendance, but at no office, so far as 
 I am aware, are both fines and extra duty imposed for the same offence. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Of course you do not object to making up the time that 
 has been* lost? 
 
 A. Certainly, my lord. If the Department keeps the money frem the 
 men I do not see any necessity for them to work up lost time as well. 
 
 Q. These men suffer nothing with regard to increment or stripes, do they? 
 
 A. I have not inquired as to that, but I am told that every one of them, 
 according to the number of times recorded late, would suffer in the matter 
 of increments and stripes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : With regard to this list of late attendances at Cork, I 
 find they run to 28. 32, and 40 minutes ; they therefore do not include late 
 attendances of less than five minutes, do they?
 
 Punishment for Late Attendance. 331 
 
 A. I cannot say that, sir, but I can give an instance from other offices 
 where men have got two hours' punishment for being three minutes late. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know when these late attendances occurred at 
 Cork? Are they modem instances? 
 
 A. They were in the quarter ending September 30, 1895. 
 
 Q. I see the striking thing brought out in the Cork case is that the men 
 are fined and also get extra duty for late attendance? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I will look into that question. It ought not to be so. 
 
 Witness : Thank you, sir. I may add that it is the same in other places 
 which I am going to mention. 
 
 The Chairman : Is there a time limit in the provinces at all for late 
 attendances ? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Q. Are not two minutes allowed as a period of grace? 
 
 A. Two minutes is allowed in Newcastle, but it is not so in other towns — 
 Leeds, for instance. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is there not a universal rule that two minutes shall be 
 allowed ? 
 
 A. We never see the rules of the Service. I am going to deal with that 
 point later on in my evidence. 
 
 Q. I have no objection to saying that the rule runs that for " each late 
 attendance exceeding two minutes and not exceeding fifteen," etc. 
 
 A. I admit that we get two minutes' gi-ace at Newcastle. I do not wish 
 in any way to exaggerate my case, my lord; I wish to keep within the 
 line if I can possibly do so. I do not wish to damage the men whom I 
 am representing by hot-headedness. and I do desire to state my case as 
 calmly and as deliberately as possible. 
 
 Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 Postmen in Newcastle are obliged to make three separate attendances 
 per day, commencing at 5 a.m. And you must remember there are 900 
 attendances in the year. Should a man be 10 minutes late he will V)e called 
 upon to perform 30 minutes' extra duty. As all lost time is allowed to 
 accumulate to the end of the quarter, a man may be four times 10 minutes 
 late, total time lost 40 minutes. For this he will be specially called upon to 
 work two hours' extra duty, or 120 minutes for the loss of 40. The men 
 are seldom called upon to do then- punishment duty until there is an influx 
 of circulars, then all the men available for punishment are called upon, 
 generally speaking, without previous warning, to reduce as much as pos- 
 sible the extra pressure by stamping, sorting, and delivering these circulars, 
 thus saving the Department from employing extra hands or paying overtime. 
 The late General Election furnishes a case in point. There were five Par- 
 liamentary candidates for Newcastle, who sent their election addresses to 
 each of the electors. Postmen were compelled to do extra duty in order 
 to dispose of the abnormal amount of posted matter. The men did their 
 work cheerfully, expecting to be remunerated for their labours at overtime 
 rate of pay. Two days afterwards a notice was displayed upon the post- 
 men's notice board, signed by the inspector, informing the men that any 
 man who had punishment duty to perform would not receive overtime pay. 
 (Cries of " Oh, oh.") 
 
 The Chairman : Order, order. 
 
 Witness : But the time he had worked would be deducted from his pun- 
 ishment duty. Thus, a man who had been 20 minutes late, and worked an 
 hour delivering Parliamentary addresses, would get notliing for his labour ; 
 another man wlio had not been late would receive overtime pay at the rate 
 of time-and-quarter. Not only does the Department punish the late atten- 
 dant with three times the amount of time he has lost, but in this instance 
 it deprived him of what he was justly entitled to — extra pay, or an equitable 
 diminution of his punishment. Should any man be late wlie; on Sunday duty
 
 332 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 the time he has lost is deducted from his Sunday pay, and in addition to 
 that he has to perform the aforesaid punishment duty. The anomaly does 
 not cease here ; at the end of the year his conduct and nature of attendance 
 is reviewed, and if it is not to the satisfaction of the Department he in- 
 variably has to suffer further punishment in the arrestment of his increment 
 for an indefinite period, and at the end of five years he is again punished 
 by his service stripe being withheld. We consider this mode of punishment 
 to be hard and unjust, more especially is it so when it is taken into con- 
 sideration that when a postman is late the Department loses nothing ; the 
 man has the same amount of work to perform, although les.s time to do it 
 in, consequently he punishes himself by throwing an extra amount of vigour 
 into his work to make up for lost time — in many cases the severe strain 
 is felt for days afterwards. The existence of this obnoxious punishment, 
 calculated by the Department to effect punctuality and punctility, on the 
 other hand, is the most prolific source of discontent, and injurious to the 
 true interests of the Service. Furthermore, I am of opinion that this mode 
 of punishment is not in accordance with Rule 8 in Town Postmen's Rule 
 Book, where the following scale of punishment for late attendances is laid 
 down for the guidance of postmen: — 
 
 RULE 8. 
 
 " (A) For every late attendance you may be fined according to the fol- 
 lowing scale, viz. : 
 
 From 2 to 15 minutes, ----- 2d. 
 
 From 16 to 30 minutes, 4d. 
 
 From 31 to 45 minutes, 6d. 
 
 From 46 to 60 minutes, - - - - - 8d. 
 
 "A late attendance beyond one hour will be specially dealt with, and in 
 addition to being fined as above, you will be liable to be called upon to 
 make up the time lost, or to be otherwise punished. (B) At the end of 
 each quarter the produce of the fines will be divided amongst the men 
 who have not been late four times in the quarter. (C) All cases of late atten- 
 dance will be specially noticed, and if they should be numerous and without 
 excuse, they may lead to the arrest of your annual increment for 12 months, 
 to suspension of pay, or possibly to your removal from the Service." 
 
 The Chairman: Are these fines not inflicted at Newcastle at all? 
 
 A. Xo, my lord ; I submit that any other form of punishment than that 
 laid down in Postmen's Rule Book is an infringement of the said rule, and 
 local Postmasters are equally responsible to the P.M.G. for the efficient 
 carrying out of the rules, therefore the precedent established whereby local 
 Postmasters infringe the rules is a bad example from a disciplinary point of 
 view. 
 
 Liverpool. 
 
 A postman in Liverpool is fined for every late attendaiice at the rate of 
 8d. psr hour: if laie 15 minutes or part thereof he is fined 2d., if late 1 
 hour he is fined 8d., and is specially called upon to work an hour extra 
 in lieu of the one he has lost ; if late four times in the quarter he is fined 
 for each offence, and is obliged to work up the broken periods he has lost ; 
 if five times late he has to pay his fines, work up all the time he has lost, 
 get a special report, and a record in the black book is made. He is also 
 liable to have his increment arrested, and if 36 times late in three years his 
 stripe is stopped, a loss of 52s. a year, and what little chance he had of 
 bein^' promoted is blighted. Although the punishment meted out in Liver- 
 pool differs in some respects from that meted out in Cork and Newcastle, 
 it will be observed in every case that the Department is not content with its 
 pound oi flesh, but must infliet several ponishmenta for the one offence.
 
 Punishment for Late Attendances. 333 
 
 ThroiAghout the various offices in the United Kingdom different systems of 
 punishment for late attendance are in operation, all more or less stringent ; 
 Slime an punished with fines, others with extra duty, and, notwithstanding 
 the disclaimei to the contrary, both fines and extra duty are inflicted, as is 
 "■/he case in Cork, Nev/castle, and Liverpool, to which 1 have just referred. 
 The Chairman: Not at Newcastle. You said there were no fint-s there? 
 .\. Certainly, my lord; but a man there loses his Sunday pay, and k 
 punished T.-'*h additional duty. 
 
 Q. He Ics-s an amount of Sunday pay in proportion to the time he is 
 absent fjom duty? 
 
 A. Yes : if a man is late half-an-hour, and his pay is at the rate of lOd. 
 an hour, hd loses 5d., and is called upon to do punishment duty as welK 
 
 Q. You raise no objection to a fine, do you? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; I think it only right that if a man loses the time of the 
 Department, his money for that time should be kept from him, but as the 
 Department is so scrupulous in insisting on punctual attendance, I think it 
 should exercise some care in seeing that the men are not compelled to work 
 over eight hours. I will give an instance of what I mean. A man with 
 wliom I work side by side is not a very good attender. I do not wish 
 to defend any man who infringes the rules of the Service, but I do wish to 
 point out that excessive punishment does more harm than good. This man 
 may have been 20 times late in one year, and although he has to work over- 
 time in order to make up for the late attendances, that is not all the pun- 
 ishment. He is losing by arrears of increment, and by being deprived of good 
 conduct stripes, 2s. a week. I consider it very hard thus to punish him 
 especially a.s he works nearly nine hours per day instead of eight. If the 
 Department makes it a binding rule, and takes stringent measures to carry it 
 out, it should exercise some care that the men are paid for the work done 
 in official time. 
 
 Q. Don't you think that a man ought to receive some more pmnishment 
 than th» mere loss of wages for the time he fails to attend at the office? 
 As far as I understand your point, you admit that if a man is late, it is quite 
 fair he should not be paid for the amount of time he has failed to put in 
 the office? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Well, you can hardly call that punishment? 
 
 A. Well, I do not think it is right that the Department should swell its 
 revenue by the misdeeds of postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What do you mean by that? ' 
 
 The Chairman : But, as far as I understand it, tlie money paid for fines 
 is distributed amongst the other postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. my lord. 
 
 Q. And therefore the Department is not a gainer by them? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Q. The men are the gainers — tliose who put in good attendances? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I admit it is an inducement for a man to be a good 
 attender ; but, on the other hand, when the Department is gaining by a man 
 working overtime, it is an inducement for the officials of the Department 
 to be more scrupulous, especially at the present time, when the economy 
 craze is so prevalent. 
 
 Q. I wish it were. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. I consider that if a man does wrong it is hot right or fair for any one 
 else to benefit by his misdeeds. 
 
 Q. You are mixing up two points. You are mixing up the question 
 whether it is right for the Department to take advantage of a man working 
 beyond eight hours without being paid for it. That is one question. Do 
 not mix it up with the question of fines or punishment. It seems to me, 
 I must Say, that you are not quite fair in your contention that a man should
 
 334 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 suffer nothing more for late attendance than merely not being paid for the 
 time he failed to put in. If that were all, it would be no punishment at all. 
 
 A. I admit, my lord, that stripes are given to postmen for good conduct, 
 and I think that the Department is quite right in withholding the stripe 
 from bad attenders ; hut I also think that, in justice to the rnen, the De- 
 partment should let them know how many late attendances will prevent 
 them getting the stripe. 
 
 Q. One difficulty about that is that late attendances cover such a margin 
 of offences. You cannot possibly put five or ten minutes lateness in the 
 scale against a late attendance of one hour? 
 
 A. That is immaterial, my lord. You will observe that the scale of 
 punishment at Newcastle is the same up to the half-hour. A man who 
 regularly attends late is a man who dwindles five or ten minutes. He is the 
 man who is most frequently late. If a man is late over half-an-hour then he 
 has to put in double time, so it does not make any difference whether a 
 man is five minutes or half-an-hour late. I really think the better plan 
 would be for the Department to stop the amount from a man's wages, and 
 to fine him according to Rule 8. Then lay down a stipulated time, and if 
 any postman goes beyond that, he does not get his good conduct stripe. 
 I think such a rule would give general satisfaction, and would do away 
 with the diss^afaction caused at jirfSint by the men beinsr kei)t in the dark. 
 
 Q. I quite understand you ask for exactly the same thing as Mr. Boaler, 
 that there should ba an absolutely clear statement, showing what punish- 
 ment a man is going to incur. You also want that the rule shall be uniform 
 throughout the Service? 
 
 A. a. es ; I am informed that in many towns the fines are distributed among 
 the local charities. I believe that is done in Glasgow, for instance, instead 
 of distributing them among the men who have put in good attendances. I 
 prefer the plan of distributing them among the men, as I think they con- 
 stitute an inducement to the men to be punctual. It is, of course, left to 
 the wish of the men whether the money shall be distributed among them- 
 selves or given to a local charity. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It is only given to the local charity at your own wish then? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There have been cases, have there not, where the fines have been 
 returned to the men who paid them? 
 
 A. Yes ; that happens in some instances. I will give you an illustration. 
 Rule 8 says that no postman shall share in the distribution of the fines 
 if he be late oftener than three times in a quarter, and if I. for instance, 
 were lafe but three times, the proceeds of the fines, supposing they amounted 
 to 6d. per man, would enable me at the distribution to get the 6d. back 
 which I had paid for the three late attendances. This plan is enforced 
 at Liverpool and Cork. There the men share in the fines, but at Newcastle, 
 if a m.an is once late, he is humiliated and degraded in the same way as a 
 man who is twenty times late. He is brought up to do punishment duty, 
 and held up to ridicule among his fellow-workers. I think that is most 
 humiliating to a man. A man may strive to do his best to put in good 
 attendances, but a time may come when, owing to an accident — and accidents 
 will happen in the best regulated families — when he is late, and I think it is 
 scarcely fair for any postman under such circumstances to be paraded be- 
 fore his colleagues as a delinquent. It is like a culprit being paraded before 
 a lot of fellow-citizens, who are told to look upon him as a man who has 
 been convicted of some offence. 
 
 The Chairman : You think that a strict enforcement of the fines is scarcely 
 a proper way of dealing with the subject of late attendances ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I would abolish the latter part of the rule, and I will tell 
 you whv later on. The one thing the Department is unanimous upon is 
 the repetition of punishment. Instead of the offences after punishment 
 linking into oblivion they are kept on hand until another favourable op-
 
 Examplesof Harsh Punishment, 336 
 
 pbrtunity appears for the Department to revenge itself. In consequence 
 the men are kept in a continued state of uncertainty and unrest as to the 
 safety of their annual increment or good conduct stripes. If the far-reach- 
 ing detrimental effect of this cumulative system could be fnllj realised it 
 would not be tolerated a day longer. It is for this and otl»er reasons that I 
 respectfully urge that some means should be adopted to banish the general 
 discontent that is now prevalent through the administration of excessive 
 punishment, and the arbitrary actions of some who do not hesitate to abuse 
 the power with which they are vested, and instead of fostering and encour- 
 aging that spirit of respectful obedience by Avhich alone good government 
 can be secured, they create a feeling of retaliation which tends to promote 
 that spirit of insubordination wliich usurps all discipline. The foregoing 
 remarks do not apply to every Postmaster or officer in authority. I know 
 there are conscientious officers who strive to do their duty to the Depart- 
 ment and mete out justice to those under them ; because of this I am 
 desirous of drawing your attention to the many inequalities that postmen are 
 subjected to by having men placed over them who do not or will not under- 
 stand the proper functions of a superior officer. I have in my possession 
 many cases of exorbitant punishment that have been inflicted upon postmen 
 for late attendance and other irregularities, some of them of the most trifling 
 nature. _ — 
 
 EXAMPLES OF HARSH PUNISHMENT. 
 
 With your kind indulgence I will quote a few typical cases, firstly, to 
 substantiate my previous statements ; secondly, to acquaint you with the 
 terrible hardships to which a postm.an can and does suffer when left at the 
 mercy of an individual, who may be imbued with an old-standing antiimthy 
 or deep-seated prejudice against postmen as a class ; and thirdly, to show 
 the absolute necessity of some authentic instructions being issued from head- 
 quarters, laying down the maximum penalty for all forms of irregularities. 
 These are the cases : — 
 
 William Woodhouse, appointed postman at Norwich in Jan., 1872, has 
 thus been a postman for 25 years. The early part of his career was char- 
 acterised as being indifferent ; he was suspected and charged with writing 
 direct to the Secretary concerning a sliady proceeding in the payment of 
 junior postmen's wages. On two occasions he has been suspected and 
 charged with communicating to the jjress ; on the fii'st occasion the Post' 
 master expressed his regret that it was not in his power to dismiss hL" ,, 
 and on the second occasion he was told that he would never be recommended 
 for any promotion. This latter threat has been consistently carried out, 
 although Woodhouse strongly protests against the charges laid against hun, 
 and earnestly declareil his innocence, and still adheres to his former protes- 
 tations. The last 17 or 18 years of Woodhouse's official career have been 
 of a most exemplar}' description : a good time-keeper and zealous in the 
 discharge of his duties, and yet, though he has been a postman for 25 years, 
 he has never been the recipient of a conduct stripe ! By this means he has 
 been deprived of about £90, truly a great loss for a postman to suffer 
 through having this vast sum deducted from his wages. It needs no words 
 of mine to point out the great mjustice that has been inflicted upon T^ood- 
 house. Any little irregularity that may have occurred (such as bad time- 
 keeping, which is admitted) in tlie first seven or eight years of his service, 
 has been amply atoned for by 17 or 18 years' punctuality and excellent be- 
 haviour. 
 
 J. Saunders entered the Service at Norwich as telegraph messenger on 
 July 6th, 1872. Took up duty as an auxiliary postman 1875, received his 
 appointment as letter-oarrier 1878. He has now served 17 years as a post- 
 man, and has an unblemished record. For some reason or other he has never 
 received a stripe. The only instance wherein he may have incurred the dis- 
 pleasure of those in authority is in 1885 (ten j'ears ago). One of the postmen
 
 336 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 was charged witli coining off his delivery in a state of intoxication. The 
 postman in question made a charge against the chief clerk of being intoxi- 
 cated on several occasions. Mr. Forest (surveyor) came to investigate the 
 case. Saunders and a postman named Fish were sent to give evidence. 
 The result of the trial was, the postman charged with drunkennes.s was 
 dismissed the Service and the chief clerk retained his position. Immediately 
 afterwards papers were sent to all the senior postmen asking them if tliey 
 had at any time lieard Saunders or Fish making use of obscene language 
 in the postmen's sorting office. Two old men replied in the affirmative. 
 Saunders and Fish were reported and fined three days' wages. That is (so 
 I am informed) the only record against Saunders. lie has since made appli- 
 cation for his conduct stripe, and waited twelve months without receiving 
 a reply. He then forwarded a .second application. The Postmaster sent for 
 Saunders, told him he had no right to send in application.s for stripes. He 
 might V^e the best conducted and most punctual man in the office, but that 
 did not constitute his right to a stripe. Stripes were given as an act of 
 grace, not as a right. Tliat, my lord, is the expression of opinion on the 
 part of the Postmaster at Norwich. 
 
 The Chairman : Does it lie entirely with the Postmaster of a particular 
 office whether a stripe is awarded or not? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. And LS there no sort of appeal beyond him? 
 
 A. There may be in the eyes of the Department an appeal from the 
 Postmaster, but the postmen look upon it as sacrilege to go above the Post- 
 master. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Still, there is an appeal ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; you will understand that some postmen can state their case 
 pretty fairly, but other postmen can not. He who can state his case in 
 a proper light is better looked after by the Department than the man who 
 is unable to do it. That is one of the reasons why we are pressing for an 
 official recognition of the Federation. 
 
 The Chairman : I should imagine that in this sort of case the Federation 
 would help a man to state his case? 
 
 A. Yes ; if we are allowed to do it, we are quite eager to undertake it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Surely it can draw up a case for the men. and then let him 
 send it forward through the prescribed official channels. Is ther« any diffi- 
 culty in that? 
 
 A. I believe it is done in some cases, but you must understand that it is 
 against the rules of the Department for the Federation to interfere between 
 it and the postmen, therefore a man must state his case himself. 
 
 The Cliairman : But the Department does not ask the man who drew up 
 his case for him, does it? 
 
 A. It is very often suspected, and I have heard cases in which the in- 
 spector has remarked to the men, " The Federation has had a hand in this 
 apparently." I may say. speaking of the town from which I come, that I 
 have had occasion to appeal to my Postmaster two or three times, and I have 
 expressed myself as liighly satisfied with his decisions. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you refer to Mr. Hunter or Mr. Stevenson? 
 
 A. To both ; I have, in fact, made representations to both of them, and 
 they have always been ready to listen to the men. 
 
 Q. Then you have no complaint to make against your own Postmasters, 
 either late or present? 
 
 A. Not as regards receiving the men and listening to any grievances 
 they may have to put forward. They have always willingly and courteously 
 received the men, and endeavoured to understand the question at issue. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to think that in the great majority of cases that 
 is not the rule among Postmasters ? 
 
 A. I believe there are cases here and there where it is not. I shall be 
 able to show that some Postmasters have a very antiquated idea, as Mr,
 
 Examples [of Hart^h Punishment. 387 
 
 Ma«laren has previously stated, of their duties towards the men. Indeed, 
 some of the inspectors also have antiquated ideas ; they talk to the men in 
 unnaturally loud tones, and in a strained voice. They talk in the same way 
 as an officer in the army would give the order. "Right about turn!" I do 
 not think it adds to the dignity of any official to put on an assumed voice 
 wlien speaking to the men. 1 think in the minds of intelligent persons 
 ridiculousness is thereby exposed, and that suck conduct is calculated to 
 bring the positions- of Postmaster and inspector into contempt. I have 
 another case which I wish to lay before you ; it is that of a man named 
 Arthur S. Carter, of Norwich, and I projiose to put it in in order to show 
 tlie enormous responsibilities postmen incur, and al.so to show how a little 
 slip may entail severe punishment being inflicted upon a man. I also want 
 to point out that in the matter of wages a postman is looked upon as being 
 at the bottom of the ladder, but that when it comes to any mistake in the 
 performance of his duties, he receives the strongest puni.shment. Therefore 
 1 think that although the Department does not admit by the amount of 
 wages it pays that the postmen are performing the most responsible work 
 of the office, yet they do concede that by inflicting upon them the heaviest 
 punishment for derelictions of duty. 
 
 Arthus S. Carter was appointed in Xorwich Post Office as postman on 
 July 23rd, 1885. Received his first stripe 1889, with back pay from date 
 due, entitled to his second stripe July, 1893. He waited several months. 
 The expected stri|)e not being forthcoming he made inquiries through the 
 proper oflScial channel. After receiving many evasive replies he was even- 
 tually informed that his stripe was arrested owing to the mis-delivery of 
 two letters in 1891 by Carter, addressed to Messrs. Smith and Son, Thorpe, 
 to Messrs. Smith and Son, Norwich. Carter explains that he has between 
 forty and fifty letters every morning for Smith and Son, Norwich. 
 
 Now, I should like to point out that the sorting clerk was more to blame 
 than the postman, beciiuse the sorting clerk must look at the names ^)f tlie 
 town to which letters are addressed, and in this case he evidently mistook 
 Thorpe for Norwich. It was a case of gross negligence on his part. When 
 a postman gets many letters for delivery, he seldom looks at the name 
 of the town, he just looks for the name of the firm ; for instance, in my own 
 case, I have a large numl>er of letters to deliver to tlie tirm of Messrs. 
 Stephens and Mawson, shipbrokers, who have an office in Cardiff as well 
 as at Newcastle. They have posted letters at Newcastle addressed to their 
 Cardiff office, and yet those letters have been delivered to them in Newcastle 
 again. That is a very simple mistake for a postman to make, and he does 
 not, I repeat, look at the names of the towns. He looks mainly to the name 
 of the firm. 
 
 The Chairman : In that case the letter ought not to come into your hands 
 at all? 
 
 A. No ; it ought not to come into my hands ; it ought to have been for- 
 warded on by the sorting clerk. 
 
 Q. Do vpu say that the sorter in this case practically escapes punishment, 
 and that tlie postman is called upon to suffer oy being fined ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But in this sort of case, do you not, when you return to the office, 
 call attention to the matter? Don't you report the facts? 
 
 A. I do not ; but probably Messrs. Stephen and Mawson do. 
 
 Q. Don't they hand the letter back to you? 
 
 A. No ; and even if they did hand them back to me, I probably should 
 not report it ; I would in all likelihood keep it dark. 
 
 The Committee then adjourned for luncheon, the witness's examination 
 not having been completed. 
 
 Mr. (Shields Smith resumed his evidence when the Committee returned 
 from luncheon. He wished, he said, to give a case typical of the severe 
 punishment inflicted for late attendance. It was as follows : — 
 
 W. H. A. Jordan has been an established postman in Torquay 12 years,
 
 338 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-oa-Tyne. 
 
 and he received his yearly increment up to 1887. In the year 1888 he had 
 22 late attendances recorded against him, and in consequence liis increment 
 was stopped. In 1889 he was 18 times lite, and lii.s increment was again 
 stopped. He was also due for a service stripe, and that too was withlield 
 for his late attendance. In 1890 he made a great improvement on his time- 
 keeping, liaving nine records against liim. He received his increment of Is., 
 and made a])pliuation for his stripe, but Tras informed that he would have 
 to serve live year.s of uninterrupted good conduct before his stripe could be 
 granted. Now, this man's punishment in addition to local fines has been, 
 through arrestment of increment in 1838, £2 12s., and in 1889, £5 4s., loss 
 of stripe for six years, £15 12s. ; a t<jtal loss of £23 8s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But then. Mr. Smith, we do not admit that loss of stripe 
 is loss of pay. The stripe is a reward for good conduct. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And this man's conduct was not good. His attendance was late? 
 
 A. Yes. sir ; but his income was less too. 
 
 Q. I was onh' talking about stripes. 
 
 A. It is a loss to a ma*i if he does not get it. 
 
 Q. But a stripe is only a reward for gooil conduct. It has nothing to do 
 with a man's pay? 
 
 A. I admit your point, .^ir ; but at the same time my contention is that 
 the punishment was excessive. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That is quite another point. 
 
 Witness : The conduct of Jordan (on the admission of his own Postmaster) 
 has lieen in all resj>ects satisfactory, and yet, although he has served 12 
 years, he did not receive his first stripe until April last, and is still being 
 punished at the rate of Is. p^r week through retention of his second stripe. 
 He has made a second appeal for it — up to the present unsuccessfulh' : (I 
 am now told that it has since been granted.) He makes three attendances 
 per dav, commencing at 6 a.m., and his record for the last six vears reads — 
 ] 890, 9 times ; 1891, 15 ; 1892, 6 ; 1893, 4 ; 1894. 2 ; and 1895, 2 ; total 
 for six years 38. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And has no notice been taken of these 38 late attendances ? 
 
 A. The man has only got his strijje now, after being 12 years appointed. 
 
 Q. You said just now that he had got his second .stripe? 
 
 A. Yes ; but that only recently, and this man has been losing money all 
 this time. Why did the Department keep his stripe from him? If he 
 deserved it he ought to have had it. I have the particulars of cases in which 
 two hours' punishment has been inflicted on men who have been very few 
 minutes late. A man named W. Harrison wa,s once late 3 minul'>,s, and his 
 pimishment was two hours' extra duty. Allen was a minute late seven times ; 
 he also got two hours' extra duty, as did Lee, who was twice late and lost 
 25 minutes. I have to bring before your notice the case of Evan Rees, town 
 postman, of Barry Port. He has been fined two years' increment and three 
 days' pay for missing a mail due at 4.30 a.m., and he writes to me: "I 
 can conscientiously say there has been no wilful neglect on my part, and on 
 each occasion the failure was due to my having overslept myself." 
 
 The Chairman : How often did he miss the mail ? 
 
 A. Twice, my lord. 
 
 Q. Was he taking letters to the mail then? 
 
 A. Yes ; he was a mail mes.senger. He had missed the mail on two oc- 
 casions, and at the time he was fined three days' pay, which I consider 
 sufficient without being fined two years' increment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is that an apparatus station, or was it merely a case of 
 taking letters to the mail? 
 
 A. I cannot say. 
 
 The Chairman : But his missing the train involved the delay of the whole 
 mail?
 
 Examples of Harsh Punishment. 339 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; and that is another consideration of the importance of 
 the postman's duties. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Oh, yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : We are on another matter just now. 
 
 The Chairman : It is also a demonstration of the importance of a postman 
 failing to do his duty. 
 
 Witness : Tlie next case is that of Philip Briers, town postman, of 
 Loughborough, who for late attendances amounting to 40 minutes was re- 
 (|uired as punishment to perform a Sunday morning delivery of 3 hours and 
 50 minutes. He has also been informed by his Postmaster that in case of 
 any more late attendances his good conduct stripe will not be recommended. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know the date of that? 
 
 A. I Imve not the date, sir. but there is nothing behind it; it is quite 
 a genuine case. The men held a meeting of indignation about the punish- 
 ment meted out to this man, and I have had several letters on the subject. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I will take the name. I should like to look into the case. 
 Let me look at the letters you have on the subject 
 
 Witness : 1 have numerous other cases in wliich we say the punishment has 
 been excessive. I am informed one man's strii)e was arrested for losing 
 the mail ; one man's increment and stripe were arrested, and he was six days' 
 fined — one, two, and three days respectively — for losing tiie mail arriving at 
 4.25 a.m. on four occasions ; one man's increment was arrested for six 
 months, and he was lined one day's pay for putting a letter under a door 
 where there was a letter-box. 
 
 The Chairman : You had better give us your most typical cases. 
 
 Witne,ss : I have a good number. 
 
 The Chairman : I do not think you will strengthen your case by giving 
 innumerable illustrations. If you give us three or four typical cases, that is 
 all that is necessary for our purpose. Just give us selected cases which will 
 ])ear out your statements. 
 
 Witness: Well, here is a case from Oldham, which I really tliink is a 
 very hard case. Postman W. E. Jones has had two stripes withdrawn on 
 the charge of losmg a registered packet. On returning from his delivery 
 on August 3, 1893, he reported having a registered receipt for which he had 
 no registered packet. Sejircli was made for the missive, but without suc- 
 cess. Two days afterwards the packet was found in a wall box quite clean, 
 and bearing no marks of rain. On the particular morning — the postman 
 goes on to state — when the packet is supp(jsed to have been lost, it rained 
 heavilv, and was very dirty imderfoot. Further, the packet was found in 
 quite another direction to the postman's walk. The case was reported to 
 headquarters, and the verdict giv^en before the postman had an opportunity 
 of making any explanation on piiper. It is now over two years ago, and he 
 has made two requests that the case be reconsidered. The postman states 
 that he did not handle, or even see the registered packet until its restoration. 
 Mr. Walpole: But he handled the receipt for it? 
 
 Witness : Yes, and I will t;ike even the Departmental view of this case, 
 and will say that the man signed for the letter. Tlie man says himself 
 that he has not seen the letter, neither did he sign for it. I have come to 
 the conclusion that he must have left it in the ofBce, and even t;iking the 
 view that as soon as he signed for it he became responsible for it — -the 
 Department is responsible to the public, and the postman is responsible to 
 the Postmaster if anything goes wrong — I do not see any necessity why the 
 Department should take away a stripe from the man. The method of 
 reporting a man is one whicli ought to be condemned. Very often an anony- 
 mous person writes a letter to the Postmaster to the effect that Postman So- 
 ai'd-so, 'vi^s doing a certain thing. The Postmaster says to tlie postman, 
 '■ You were seen doing it." The postman denies the charge, but is refused 
 the name of the informant, which the Postmaster declines to divulge, and the 
 result usually is that the postman is severely punished on a complaint against 
 which he has no means of defending himself. I considei- that no court of
 
 340 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 justice, and, indeed, no other tribunal in England would convict any man, 
 or body of men, on such evidence. 
 
 The Chairman : But tliis man whose case you are referring to, was, so 
 to speak, self-convicted ; he signed for the letter and then did not deliver it. 
 
 Witness : But he denies ever having seen the letter. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : But still, j^f^'^O' tacit, there is a strong case against the 
 man. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I will look into the case. I feel sure the punishment was 
 not given for simply losing a registered parcel. 
 
 Witness : I tJiought there was something behind the case, and I wrote 
 for further information, and I got it by express letter the other day. I 
 am really not surprised at anything that Postmasters do. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: But your own experience has been very favourable? 
 
 Witness : Yes, in my own office. I have had a case brought before me 
 where the Postmaster acted as matrimonial agent. 
 
 The Chairman : The Postmaster ? 
 
 Witness : Yes, sir ; and I consider it a gross breach of the rules of the 
 Service for a Postmaster to interfere between a postman and his sweet- 
 heart. I have here a copy of the letter sent to me by the postman, and also 
 of the one written by the Postmaster of Widiaes to the young woman. Here 
 is a case which I wish to bring before you to illustrate the custom which is 
 becoming general of compelling tlie men to proceed from the office in single 
 file. The Postmasters in certain towns insist on the men all leaving the office 
 together, and in single file. They have all to be ready at the same time, 
 and when the word is given for despatch they have to march out in order. 
 Now, it is really an impossibility for all the men to be ready at the same 
 moment. There are some who have two or three times as many letters as 
 others. Those who have the smaller quantity of letters to deal with are, 
 of course, ready first, yet they have to wait until the others have com- 
 pleted their sorting, in order that they may emerge from the office in 
 single file. This often puts the men to great inconvenience ; it makes them 
 lose trams and 'buses in towns where they are allowed to ride free. I have 
 a case from Tunbridge Wells, where the men are obliged to walk through 
 the streets to their respective walks in single file. They are subjected to 
 ridicule consequently from the public, and, as there are some young men 
 amongst them, they resent tJiat ridicule. On one occa.sion, according to 
 the report I have received, two senior auxiliaries walked out of the line, 
 and were reported by a sorter-clerk who had been sent out for the purpose 
 of watching them. The result is that these two auxiliaries have been re- 
 fused any promotion, and they have suffered great punishment thereby. 
 I do not propose to go into all the cases I have had submitted to me, but 
 I will suggest that if there is any .charge I have made, or anything I have 
 said, which you do not think I have substantiated by facts, I shall be 
 pleased to answer any questions any member of the Committee may wish to 
 put to me. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The gist of your evidence is that the Department ought to 
 lay down strict rules measuring the exact punisliment for late attendance? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Mr. Boaler's evidence? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear him instance the case of a postman who was late on 
 several occasions in consequence of the illness of his wife? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be fair to punish in the same way a man who 
 was late through serious illness at home, and a man who had no excuse 
 whatever for being late? 
 
 A. That is a matter which the Department must guard itself against. 
 Of course these things are open to great abuse. If I were late in the 
 morning, and felt I had a good excuse, I should avail myself of the op- 
 portunity. If the Department would lay down a rule which would enable
 
 Examples of Harsh Punishment. 341 
 
 a man to know that lateness ■would mean loss of stripe, or would prevent him 
 getting one, he would endeavour to keep good time. In the majority of cases 
 illness does not stop the men from going to their walks ; indeed, the De- 
 partment will not accept it as an excuse. In fact, we do not know what 
 excuse the Department will accept. I do not think it will take any. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am only asking whether it will not act harshly in many 
 cases if the Postmasters are allowed to exercise no discretion in late atten- 
 dance where there is really a bona fide excuse? 
 
 A. We do not wish to curtail any discretion on the part of well-intentioned 
 Postmasters. We wish all possible latitude to be allowed to those who un- 
 derstand the government of men, but we want restrictions put upon those 
 who control the men under them with undue harshness. 
 
 Q. But if the Department laid down absolute rules never to be departed 
 from, would not well-intentioned Postmasters, as well as otlier Postmasters 
 of whom you do not think so well, be bound to follow tlie rules strictly? 
 A. Yes ; and that would be better than leaving the men at their mercy. 
 The Chairman : You would like a fixed rule laid down as to the maximum 
 punishment to be given? 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. With regard to the minimum punishment, you would leave that to the 
 discretion of the Postmasters? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I believe that harshness has been tried long enough, 
 and that the time for kindness has arrived. I made a statement just now 
 to the effect that hundi-eds of men are waiting for their stripes. This is 
 from personal observation. Men are never informed whether or not they 
 will get their stripes. They may make inquiry of the inspector, and he tells 
 them that he does not know ; then they may apply to the Postmaster's clerk, 
 and he can give them no information ; in fact, they are kept in the dark, 
 and it is like having a sword suspended over their heads. I do not think 
 this is good for the Department. I have here a letter I have received from 
 Worthing, where nine men are waiting for their stripes, and can get no 
 information about them. 
 
 The Chairman : Are a good many men waiting for their sti"ipes at New- 
 castle? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. I will now give you some typical cases of men being 
 reported by anonymous writers. Here is a case of a man engaged as a 
 sub-office postman, who has been deprived of his good conduct stripe through 
 being reported for intoxication. His name is Nevins, and the facts are these : 
 Shortly after Christmas Nevins received a report from our Postmaster 
 saying that he (the Postmaster) had been informed that on Bank Holiday 
 Nevins had been seen in the public streets in a disgraceful state of intoxi- 
 cation. In reply, Nevis admitted having had some drink, and that 
 whilst off duty, but he emphatically denied being drunk, and offered to 
 name several credible witnesses in proof of his assertion. Nevins had the 
 report returned to him, on which the Postmaster had written that the plea 
 of being off duty could not be accepted, as whether on or off duty he was still 
 a postman. He was also asked if he had anything further to say for the 
 information of the surveyor. Nevins repeated his previous statement, and 
 shortly aftei-wards he was informed that he was to be punished by the loss 
 of his good conduct stripe, this being the decision of the Postmaster-Gleneral. 
 Nevins considers that he has been most unfairly dealt with. He has re- 
 quested the name of the mformer who gave evidence against him, but this 
 is refused by the Department. He has petitioned the Postmaster-General 
 to have his case reconsidered, and has received in reply the information that 
 the Postmaster-General is unable to alter his decision. Wliatever may be 
 thought as to the truth of Nevins's statement, there can be but one opmion 
 as to the most unfair and un-English-like policy of punishing a man without 
 letting him know the name of the person who has given evidence against him. 
 Mr. Walpole : Why, in the case of a man charged with being drunk in 
 the streets, is it necessary to produce the witness ?
 
 342 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 A. If I were charged with knocking a man down, do j'ou think it would 
 be fair for me not to be brought face to face with the mformer, so tliat I 
 might know where tlie information came from? Do you think it would ]>e 
 right for me to be convicted on evidence which I could not test? 
 
 Q. The two cases are not, I think, parallel. One is a question whether 
 a man was or was not drunk ; that is not like a (juestion of assault. 
 
 A. Tlie man said he was not drunk. 
 
 Q. But wlien a man who is charged with being drunk admits he had had 
 drink, it is. 
 
 A. I beg your pirdon ; that is not the question at all. I have been 
 charged with drunkenness, and have never tasted intoxicating drinks in my 
 life. I am a life-long teetotaller. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been punished? 
 
 A. I have never been puni.shed, but if I had not indignantly met my 
 accuser face to face I might have been. 
 
 The Chairman : You found out who your accuser was ? 
 
 A. I did, my lord. I have another case here. A Cardiff man was charged 
 with drunkenness by his inspector. The man indignantly denied it, and 
 brought forward witnesses to prove he was not drunk. He brought for- 
 ward Mr. Shepherd, the president of the Girditf Branch of the Postmen's 
 Federation, who was called upon to send in a written statement. That 
 statement completely exonerated the accased. Shepherd was sent for by the 
 Postmaster. In the room with the Postmaster were his wife, his chief clerk, 
 and the chief inspector. Tliie Postmaster asked him what he knew of the 
 affair. Shepherd gave him a copy of the statement, and having read it the 
 Postmaster deliberately tore it into pieces, and told Shepherd he did not 
 believe him. A witness because he gives evidence in favour of a man is 
 practically told that he is a liar. The accused postman offered to bring for- 
 ward other witnesses to prove his perfect sobriety, but he was not allowed to. 
 Instead he was called upon to say why he should not be dismissed from the 
 Service. This is only a sample of the treatment the postmen get in tliese 
 cases, and I think it Is time it was stopped. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wliat date was that? 
 
 A. It is not dated. It is the case of Hughes, postman, of Cardiff. I 
 am informed it occurred six months ago. I am awaiting further particulars 
 of the case. Here is the case of a Manchester postman, which is typical of 
 the manner in which postmen are tried and condemned. It is the case of 
 F. W. Dain, who has been an appointed town postman in Manchester for 
 34 years. He writes : — '" On the 19th Nov. . 1895, I was reported for being 
 drunk and using abusive language to a person on my walk. These are the 
 facts of the case : — I was going up his stairs to his office when I caught mj- 
 foot in the stairs, which are in a very dilapidated state,- and grazed the 
 skin of my leg, which brought blood and gave me great pain. Smarting 
 under this, I came out with the words. ' Why the devd don't you get the stairs 
 mended?' I admitted in my explanation at the time what I had said, and 
 also that I had three glass of beer that day. But my complainant stated he 
 had seen me drunk many a time. I sent in a petition from about 20 per- 
 sons and friends on my walk who had known me from 3 years up to 28 years, 
 and who certified that they had never seen me drunk once. I have been 
 over 34 years appointed, and am now turned 58 years of age, and this is 
 the first time I have been reported for an offence of this nature. My pun- 
 ishment has been loss of one good conduct stripe, viz., Is. a week. I had 
 been in possession of three stripes ever since they were first issued in 
 Manchester." 
 
 ^Ir. 'Walpole : What is the man's name ? 
 
 A. Dain. For one report he has been deprived of his stripe. It does 
 not seem to matter who makes a complaint against a man. If the complaint 
 comes from the outside it is taken as Gospel against him, and nothing he 
 oan feriug forw-rd to refute the charge against him is accepted. I submit
 
 Examples of Harsh Puaishment; 343 
 
 that as the men are under the control of the Department it should form its 
 own opinion on the evidence for and against, and not merely accept the com- 
 I)laint from outside. 
 
 Q. Is it not possible that the Department may have had this man under 
 its eye for many years? I do not suppose you have the same opportunity 
 as we liave of knowing the facts. 
 A. The Department may. 
 
 Q. .You have not seen tlie c:ise that was brought before the Department. 
 According to your own showing the niiyi confessed he had been drinking 
 to a certain extent? 
 
 A. Yes ; he said he had had three glass of beer. 
 Q. Tliat is his own confession? 
 
 A. Yes ; and it is proof of his honesty that he admitted it. He might have 
 said that he had had no beer. Here is another case — that of Postman Thomas 
 Etheridge, who was deprived of first stripe for five years for an offence com- 
 mitted by him during his holidays. It appears that he, with some compan- 
 ions, became a little uproarious at a country-side inn, and, in consequence, 
 was arraigned before the local magistrates and fined. Notwithstanding the 
 fact that tlie offence w;\s committed by him during his annual leave, and 
 some considerable time before the order was issued warning the post officials, 
 he has been made to suffer the loss of his stripe, the local Postmaster 
 taking to himself the discretion of allowing him the benefit of receiving 
 another when due. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : This occurred during the man's holidays, and he admits 
 he was drunk? 
 
 A. Well, I consider the Department has nothing to do with a man when 
 he is on holidays. 
 
 Q. Don't you think that the Department in awarding stripes for good 
 conduct has to consider what a man's conduct is at all times? 
 
 A. Not if he does his duty to the Department. Wlien the Department 
 engages a man they do not buy his body and soul. They buy his labour, 
 and that is what 'lie sells to the Dei)artment. As long as he gives that 
 laljour honestly and faitlifuliy to the Department I do not consider it has 
 a right over his proper time. 
 
 Q. But if the Department gives a reward for good conduct, don't you 
 think it has a right to take into consideration his conduct during the whole 
 of the time? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not think it has. Tliis is a question very keenly felt 
 throughout the United Kingdom. If the Department looks at a man's pri- 
 vate aft'airs and follows up his privat-e life, I thinlc it will prove an en- 
 couragement to liypocrisy. If a. man knows he can get a stripe by going to 
 church or wearing a blue ribbon, or by joining some religious body, he 
 will be apt to do these things, not because he is honestly convinced that his 
 action is right, but because he thinks the Department will look up(m him 
 with a favourable ej^e. I think it is an infringement of a man's liberty for 
 the Department to consider liis conduct when he is out of uniform. 
 
 Q. But this is not a case of a man being punished for not going to 
 church. He was punished apparently for Ijeing drunk and disorderly at a 
 public-liouse? 
 
 A. Yes ; and I consider the Department had nothing to do with it. He 
 was not in Departmental clothes at the Irime. 
 Q. Do you know that? 
 
 A. Yes ; I know that for a certainty. He was on his annual leave at a 
 country-side place. He went into a ])ublic-liouse and got a little uproarious, 
 as a man is likely to do when he is relieved of the restraint of uniform. 
 I have a note here saying that I am championing the " boozers " too much- 
 Now, no man condemns drink more strongly than I do. It is a curse to the 
 country ; but I think it is carrying things too far to put a restraint upon a 
 man outside office hours. For instance, suppose I were to go to a friend's
 
 344 John Shjklds Smith, Newcastle-on-Tync. 
 
 house to a wedding or to a christening, and tliey were to prevail upon tne 
 to take a glass of wliisky. I have little doubt it would make me drunk, 
 and then some ofHcer of the Department might say I was drunk, and I Bliould 
 at once be put down as a drunkard by the I)ep;irtment. It miglit be the means 
 of injuring one who is an honest and sober man. 
 
 The Chairman : Your point is that the Department should not punish a 
 man merely on the strength of anonymous evidence against him? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : This was a case of conviction for drunkenness. 
 
 Tiie Chairman : That is different, of course. 
 
 Witness : It is a case whicli I should have dealt with under the head 
 of " Citizen Rigiits." 
 
 The Chairman : Supposing a man is guilty of tlieft at a time when he is 
 not in the employment of the Post Office, would you have the Department 
 look over it? 
 
 A. That is not a parallel case. That is very different. A man may get 
 intoxicated but may not violate any law of the land. Yet if he is seen in 
 a state of intoxiwition that is considered sufficient for the Department to re- 
 cord it against him. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But surely your own view is that the Department must 
 be wise in trying to encourage by all the means in its power sobriety and 
 good conduct amongst its servants? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think that. 
 
 Q. Does it not add to the reputation of the whole Service? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And was not the Department wise in noticing the case of this man 
 who was convicted? 
 
 A. I do not think it was right in punishing him. I do not think it was 
 wise in that respect. I shall not give any more typical cases, as I have 
 driven home the point I wanted to. But I should like to contrast the pun- 
 ishment meted out to postmen with that awarded to sorting clerks. I am 
 not saying that it is too slight in the case of the latter. It is, I assert, too 
 severe in the case of postmen. This is the case of Postman J. Webster, of 
 Liverpool, with a list of his offences : — Offence, July. 1883, wilfully de- 
 layed three letters ; first time of misconducting myself after eight years' 
 service. Punishment, deprived of my stripe. Offence, July, 1886, suspended 
 for being under the influence of drink ; punishment, removed from my walk 
 and placed among ' junior men ' on the ' relief force,' thus being deprived of 
 participation in Christmas boxes, being a great loss to myself and family. 
 1 still remain without mv stripe, and an additional one is due ; in November, 
 1896. I should get a third." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Where does this case come from? 
 
 A. Liverpool. Now, I will contrast his case with some examples of Mr. 
 Freeling's conduct while in the C.B. as second-class sorting clerk: — 
 
 "21st Sept., 1891 — For having mis-sent 4 letters to Lincoln, and on same 
 date mis-sent 74 letters to Northampton, and on the 24th, 93 letters to 
 Nottingham ; punishment, 1 hour extra duty. 
 
 "23rd Oct.. 1891 — ^Mis-sent 6 letters to Lincoln Sorting Tender, and on 
 the 24th, 6 letters, and on the 25th, 5 letters to the same office, and on the 
 26th mis-sent 23 letters to Northampton ; punishment, 1 hour extra duty. 
 
 " 27th December, 1891 — Mis-sent 36 letters to Wavertree ; punishment, 1 
 hour extra duty. 
 
 " 28th March, 1892 — For neglecting to forward newspapers, etc., to Mag- 
 hull and Melling when despatching ; punishment 1 hour extra duty. 
 
 "25tli April, 1892 — For having arrived late on duty nine times during the 
 quarter ending 31st March ; punishment, 1 hour extra duty. 
 
 "19th June, 1892 — Missing 6 newspapers to H. and K. paoket, and on the 
 21st, 14 newspapers to Exeter ; punishment, 1 hour extra duty.
 
 The Case of the Sub-Posttnaster at Formby. 345 
 
 " 18th June, 1892 — Mis-sent 8 letters. 3 post cards, and 3 circulars to 
 Birmingham ; punishment, 1 hour extra duty. 
 
 " 25th July, 1892 — Mis-sent 10 letters to Newcastle-on-Tyne, addressed to 
 various places ; punishment, 1 hour extra duty. 
 
 " 9th Oct. , 1892 — Failing to forward two bags received from London for 
 Southport on the 6th inst. ; punishment, 1 hour extra duty. 
 
 "19th Dec, 1892 — Mis-sent 26 letters to Wrexham addressed to Bangor; 
 punishment, 1 hour extra duty." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In the case of sorting clerks they have no stripes, have they? 
 
 A. No ; but they get promoted in spite of the mistakes they make. This 
 man has been taken into the surveyor's office. 
 
 The Chairman: You had better return to your ca.se, Mr. Smith. 
 
 Witness : Certainly, my lord. I wish to thank you for the latitude you 
 have given me. To prevent any exaggerated views being adv"anced before 
 this Committee, the Postmen's Federation have made every exertion to ob- 
 tain reliable evidence. Witli that object in view we .''ent letters to almost 
 every Post Office in the United Kingdom, asking for particulars as to their 
 conditions of employment and general grievances. Some of the letters have 
 not been returned, others have been returned in such a mamier as to raise 
 suspicion as to whetlier they had fallen into the liands of those for whom 
 they were intended. One of the letters returned from Formby, a sub-office 
 under Liverpool, throws some liglit upon the manner in which our private 
 communications have been dealt with. This letter to which I refer was 
 addressed to tlie senior postman at Formby, and cont;iined the following 
 communication: — " Ple;ise inform me for the purposes of the Committee of 
 Inquiry, before whom I am to give evidence — 1st, The numl)er of parcels 
 per day to each man at your office, together with their approximate weight, 
 and the longest distance they have to be carried ; 2nd, the numl>er of aux- 
 iluiries and postmen, their attendance and rate of wages ; 3rd, a list of your 
 duties, showing conspicuously duties covering over 12 hours ; want of con- 
 venient and proper medical attention, or any other matter of which you feel 
 aggrieved. — Yours sincerely, Jonv Walsk, Secretary, Postmen's Federa- 
 tion. Liverpool." Tiie letter was returned with the following intelligent 
 answer written by the sub-postmaster of Formby: — "Formby lias nothing 
 to do with this agitation. One thing I know, a good many of tlie postmen 
 are not worth the money they get. — Formby, I2th August. — R. Alkxandkr." 
 
 The Chairman: How did the letter fall into his hands? 
 
 A. I will explain. We instructed our representative, Mr. John Walsh, of 
 Liverpool, to go to Formby and inquire into this case. His report shows 
 that Mr. Alexander acknowledged opening the letter, and wrote his opinion 
 M'ithout consulting any of the postmen. All the postmen were interviewed 
 by our represent^itive, and all of them were quite ignorant of tlic letter in 
 question. 
 
 The Chairman : Wliy did not Mr. Walsh bring thus case forward in his 
 own evidence? 
 
 A. This portion of our case had been pUiced in my liands, and the in- 
 stance I am dealing with comes, of course, under the head of discipline. 
 The men have many grievances that re(|uire redress ; for example, want of 
 proper accommodation, as they are compelled to sort their letters in a tem- 
 porary shed erected in the back yard for that purpose, as Mr. Alexander 
 cannot tolerate the postmen going through his house, consequently the men 
 are almost perished with cold in winter. Empty barrels are provided as 
 seats, tlie table to sort the letters on is described as being like a ymUito 
 trough. The postmen have not an official medical officer ; tliey complain of 
 being overloatled with parcels, and insufficiency of pay. Had a postman 
 taken the liberty of opening a letter addressed to another per.son, he would 
 be liable to punishment V)y fine or imprisonment, or both, according to 
 Section 25 of tlie Post Office Offences Act. In my humble opmion the same 
 punishment ought to be meted out to this sub-postmaster for opening our
 
 346 John Shields Smith, Newcofltlc-on-Tyne. 
 
 private letter, and so cowardly replying thereto, as we understood from our 
 late Postmaster-General (Mr. A. Morley) tliat every facility would lie given, 
 and postmen would be encouraged to comf forward to give evidence. We 
 know not how many Mr. Alexanders there may hav3 been trying to frustrate 
 our efforts. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The sub-postmasters are equally liable to punishment? 
 
 nie Cliairnian : Who was tliis letter addressed to? 
 
 A. Tlic senior jwstman at Formliy. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If the sub-postmaster did open it, it was a very grave 
 offence. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The Postmen's Federation have every reason to thiink the 
 Department for the facilities whicli iiave been granted them in collecting 
 the evidence. 
 
 Q. Was tiie postage paid on that letter? 
 
 A. Yes ; it was paiil. Thi.s is not the only instance of tiie sort where 
 statements as to evidence have l>cen withlield from the men, and that is the 
 reason why I am bringing this case forward. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I will in'juire into tlie case. Of course this could not 
 have been done at the wisli or witli tlie knowledge of the Department? 
 
 Witness : I do not wish to impute anytliing against the Dei)artment. In 
 fact, speaking on behalf of the I'ostmen's Federation . I may conscientiously 
 say that the Department Iiave not interfered in any way with our getting in- 
 formation. I have thouglit it my <luty to take cue, on behalf of tlie men 
 I represent, that the conduct of this Postmaster should be brought liefore the 
 Committee. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You s;ud he was a sub-postmaster just now? 
 
 A. Yes ; he is a sub-postmaster, but the men are under him. 
 
 Tlio Chairman : It is not a verv big office, is it? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. ^^'alpole : He is probably a local tradesman. 
 
 A. Yes, he is. There is also the question as to the shelter afforded for 
 the men. 
 
 The Chairman • How many men are there under him? 
 
 A. Ten, I believe. The papers that were sent out to collect information 
 contained the following questions: — (1) State the number of times late in a 
 year wliich debars a man from getting his increment ; (2) Stiite the number of 
 late attendances in five years wliich debars a man from getting his stripe. 
 Out of 286 replies received there are 250 who cannot give the desired infor- 
 mation, and only 56 offices where the men have any knowledge as to the 
 jiumber of times they have to be late before their increment or stripe is 
 arrested, and these vary from 4 to 24 for arrestment of increment, and from 
 25 to 60 for prevention of receiving stripe. This state of affairs is manifestly 
 unfair to the men, and is not at all creditable to those responsible for the 
 maintenance of discipline, nor yet is it to the interest of the Department to 
 allow men who are performing an important public duty to remain in ignor- 
 ance of the penalty they incur by unpunctuality, or any other irregularity 
 that may be punishable. Rule No. 8 in tlie Postmen's Rule Book, under 
 which punishment for late attendance is served, is of such a vague character 
 as to give little short of infinitive power to local Postmasters in administrat- 
 ing punishment for this sometimes unavoidable offence. So long as this rule 
 exists, the comforts and happiness of postmen's homes will be at the mercy 
 of the fluctuating temperament and erratic judgment of the many arbitrators. 
 As to the vagueness of this rule, line 3 reads: — "A late attendance beyond 
 one hour will be sjjecially dealt with." Here unbounded authority is lav- 
 ished into the hands of the official authorities. Again (Clause C) says : — " All 
 cases of late attendance will be specially noticed, and if they should be 
 7U(merous and without excuse they may lead to the arrestment of annual 
 increment, etc." How are we to know from this abstract language 
 the number of times they countenance as numerous or the kind of excuses
 
 Official Limit for Late Attendances. 347 
 
 they consider plausible? So far as we are concerned, it is immaterial as to 
 the cause of late attendance ; a certain number of times late entails always 
 the working of extra time minus pay — in addition to stoppage of increment 
 and exemption from stripes. 
 
 The Chairman : As I said before, I do not see how it is possible to put 
 all late attendances on the same footing, and that is where it seems to me 
 your argument breaks down. I do not see how the Department can say that 
 so many attendances shall involve a certain punishment, because there is 
 great variety between late attendances and the length of time a man may be 
 late. It may be the case that he does not get up sufficiently early in the 
 morning, and it may be that he delays a collection througli some unforeseen 
 event. 
 
 Witness : Yes ; but the Department at the present time do not take into 
 consideration anything a man may urge against being fined. 
 
 The Chairman : I am not able to say whether that is a fact or not. It 
 is not what the Department says ; it wishes its representatives »t the 
 various offices to take all these tilings into consideration. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Will you accept it from me that I have discussed this 
 matter with some of the leading Postmasters, and they assure me that they 
 do take these things into consideration in dealmg with these matters, and 
 awarding the fines. They tell me they do take care, where a man is not 
 wilfully or culpibly late, to mitigate the fine, and where the lateness is 
 wilful or inexcusable tliey increase the fine. 
 
 Witness : You })ut the question to me in a very unfair manner. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I have not put a question. I have merely made a state- 
 ment. 
 
 Witness : You put me in a peculiar position. My experience teaches me 
 that what occurs is quite different. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : IJut you admit that your own experience has been favourable 
 both in regard to your late and your jiresent Postmaster? 
 
 A. Yes ; in ivsjiect of receiving ajjplicitions from the men. I do not 
 think that a man ought to work m<ii-c tirin 8 iidur.s a day. If lie does not 
 get a natural rest hf imiiuoI. n'turii Ui his work in <liU' tune next day. I 
 have l)een infonnoil that 12 times is the official limit for late att*.^ndances. 
 
 The Cliaiiinan : I think it is 16. 
 
 Witness : I have b^en iuforined it is 12. I c;in speak from i)ersonal ex- 
 perience, and I know that the postmen at Newcastle Jiave been told that 12 
 times is the official number. We earnestly request that the last four lines 
 in Section A be expunged, as it i.s totally unnecessary to punisli men twice 
 for the one offence. We also ask for the entire abolition of Section C It is 
 couched in most ambiguous language, a standing menace to all whom it refers 
 to, and one of the greatest fact4us in creating discontent. In support of 
 this request I may say that no other body of men in the Service is subjected 
 to such a rule. It is not to be found in any otlier rule book. Men who are 
 under one and the same Government, belonging to the same class, and 
 performing work of the same nature, ought not to be governed by different 
 sets of rules. There should be one set of rules printed in one iorm by one 
 printer. Tlie present plan is to have one set for London and another for the 
 provinces. I hope in the future the De])artment will have a uniform code 
 of rules for all classes of postmen. We do not crave any privilege ; we 
 only want to be treated as men in a projier manner. I liave here the book 
 of rules for London postmen and provincial postmen. There are 136 rules 
 for provincial postmen, and only 61 for the London men ; thus there is a 
 double number for tlie provincial men. I cannot see any reason why we 
 should not all be treated alike. 
 
 The general rules of the Service are embodied in the Book of Rules to 
 head Postmasters — a book to which very few postmen have access. I have 
 been 20 years in the Service, and had never seen one of the extracts whicli 
 Were supplied to me l)y a i)ostman in another town. Rule No. 1 of this
 
 348 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 book says: — "Tliis book of rules is intended for the use not only of Post- 
 masters, but, so far as may bo, f(jr other officers wlio are equally bound to 
 observe tliem. As no l)reach of rule will be excused on ground of ignorance, 
 it is the duty of tiie Postmaster to take care that his subordinate officers 
 ac(|uaint themselves with the rules affecting their respective classes." Again, 
 Rule 5 says: — "For the purposes of these rules every person is deemed an 
 officer of the Department whose employment Ls recognised by the Postmaster- 
 General." So far as the majority of the postmen are concerned, the general 
 purport of these rules is a matter of conjecture. It may thus happen that 
 ])ostmen infringe the rules of the Service quite unwittingly. Besides, some 
 of the rules in the Postmasters' book admit of an interpretation of an op- 
 pressive character. For example. Rule 26 says: — "Although a Postmaster 
 whose whole time is not at the disposal of the Department may be per- 
 mitted to hold a news agency, he is not allowed to be the proprietor, either 
 wholly or jointly, of any newspaper, or to t:ike part in editing one." The 
 same rule also stales: — "The permission to hold a news agency does not 
 extend to postmen." 
 
 "THE POSTMAN'S GAZETTE." 
 
 Tills rule, under a reactionary Postmaster-General, might be construed as 
 prohibiting postmen from having any connection with the pre-ss. We view 
 the existence of such a rule with some apprehension, as we don't know how 
 soon it might be cited as the authority for suppi'cssing the " Postman's 
 Gazette." I may explain, my lord, that the "Postman's Gazette" is the 
 official organ of the Postmen's Federation. Its articles are written ex- 
 clusivelv by postmen, and do not, I hope, exceed the bounds of fair criti- 
 cism. ^Moreover, the " Postman's Gazette " has always striven to inculcate 
 in the minds of its readers a sense of the duty they owe to the State and a 
 spirit of loyalty to tiie rules of the Service. The "Postman's Gazette" Ls 
 not a newspajxT in the ordinary sense of the term. It is edited by a post- 
 man, and published fortnightly for circulation among officers of the Depart- 
 ment only. It is not for sale U) tlie general public. In fact, so far as those 
 responsible for its isisue are concerned, such a practice is condenmed, and 
 were it known that any postman sold " Gazettes " to the public his action 
 would at once l)e repudiated, and immediate steps taken to stop further 
 supplies. 
 
 The Chairman : Surely there has been no attempt to interfere with your 
 "Gazette" or with the part postmen take in it? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Are you sure? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : What is the complaint you have against your own superior 
 officers in regard to this? 
 
 A. Under that rule? 
 
 Q. Yes ; I want to know what has been done under that rule? 
 
 A. They have been called upon to give explanations. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Who has been called upon to give explanations ? 
 
 A. Those who have been in connection with the " Gazette," sir. 
 
 Q. Wliat explanations have they been called upon to give? 
 
 A. As to why they had connection with a newspaper. We contend that it 
 is not a newspaper in the ordinary sense of the word. 
 
 The Chairman : Are you certain of your facts ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You have not given us any instances of interference with you. 
 
 A. I will give you the facts of the case in writing, my lord. 
 
 The Cliairman : All right. 
 
 Witness : I may inform you that the information I got was confidential, 
 but all the same it is authentic, and I can vouch for the accuracy of my 
 statement.
 
 The Official Rule Book. 349 
 
 Sir A. Godley : Do you wish us to understand that you have no access 
 to the rules ? 
 
 Witness : Well, I think the men can see them if they make application 
 to the Postmaster ; but the majority of them are not aware of the existence 
 of this rule book. I say I have not seen it all the time I have been in the 
 Service. Perhaps I may be partly to blame for not sending in an applica- 
 tion to look at them ; at any rate, I have not been conscious that such a 
 book was in existence. 
 
 The Chairman : You have been a very good officer ; you are at the maxi- 
 mum of your class ; you have got two good conduct stripes, so that your 
 lack of knowledge of the existence of the book has not interfered with your 
 progress very much. 
 
 Witness : I may have been a very lucky individual. Here is another man 
 who ha.s been in the Service 25 ve^irs, and has n=ver seen it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What? 
 
 A. The Postmasters' Rule Book. 
 
 Q. He has seen the Postmen's Rule Book, has he not? 
 
 A. Yes ;' but many of the rules in the Postmasters' Rule Book arc not 
 in the postmen's. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Don't j^ou think it is a great advantage to the men to have 
 this small book, which contains all that is nece.ssary for their information, 
 instead of the larger one provided for Postmasters? I am ashamed to say 
 I have not read through the larger bnok myself. 
 
 A. The rules I have quoted are not in our rule books at all. 
 
 The Chairman : But you will remember that Postmasters have a great 
 many duties to perform which do not relate to postmen at all? 
 
 A. This postman says that the rule he quoted did not refer to Postmasters 
 alone, but it referred to all the officers of the Department. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Tiie object is to s;ive the postmen the trouble of reading 
 a voluminous book of wliicli only a small fraction refers to them. 
 
 Witness: But I have quoted a case in which a postman has l)een called 
 U[)on to give ;in e\|i!anati()n as to a matter which was not contained in the 
 rule book sup|)lif<l to him. 
 
 Mr. Wal})oie : C^tn you give us any c«.se \\ lure a postni in has been pun- 
 ishetl, or even called upon to give an exjilanation for breaking a rule which 
 is not contained in his own book of rulfs? 
 
 A. Yes. A postman at Widnes, in Lancashire, took a licence out for a 
 public-house, and put his brother in to manage it. 
 
 Q. Is he the licensee, then? 
 
 A. Yes ; that man has never seen the rules. 
 
 Q. What happened to him? 
 
 A. I am quite aware that a rule on this matter does appear in the rule 
 book, but this man had never seen it. 
 
 Q. Do you say he had never seen the rule book supplied to postmen? 
 
 A. He says he has not. 
 
 Q. Are not the rules available for all postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And can be seen in all offices? 
 
 A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Is it not the presumption tliat every postman has access to these rules? 
 
 A. I presume so. 
 
 Q. And is not one rule to the efifect that you are forbidden to be con- 
 nected directly or indirectly with the ownership or management of a public- 
 house ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I say the man was ignorant of the rule, and he cannot be 
 expected to act on presumption. 
 
 Q. But you were complaining that this man was punished for breaking a 
 rule in tlie Postmasters' book which he had never seen, and I am pointing
 
 350 JoJiN Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-'ryne. 
 
 out lliat the rule is contained in tlie postman's own hook. Is tliat not i i 
 case ? 
 
 A. My point is tliat the man was in actual ignorance of the rule. !!■ 
 did not know tliat it existed. 
 
 Q. Is it not your business as a town postman to be acquainted with r 
 book of luk'S? 
 
 A. 1 cannot become acquainted with the rules if I have no access to tliirn 
 
 Q. Have you any doubt that it Ls a practice in every post office that tljr 
 postmen shall have access to the rules? 
 
 A. It may hn tiio practice, but tliis man tells me he never had the hook : 
 I do not know why, and I do not know Avhether it has now l)een supjiiii .1 
 to him or not. I was Kve or Uiii ye:irs in tiie office before I got a book of 
 rules. 
 
 Q. You had access to them, I supixjse? 
 
 A. I cannot say that I had. but I may have had access, and I did ii. 
 think there was juiy neui.ssity tf) sic them. I had no idea what the rules of 
 the Service were until a book was supplied to me. 
 
 Q. Is it not the cise that every postman actually signs the hook of m 
 and puts h\^ signature to this: "I have cirefuliy read these rules and uml' ■ 
 stand them?" Have you any <loubt that this man at Widnes did that? 
 
 A. I have grave doubt. He !<ays he had never seen tlie book. I may tell 
 you tli^e hooks were never received until about tliree years ago. and I was 
 all tbnt time in the Service without seeing any rules. I simply signed a 
 decliration that I would not steal, or open lettiTS, and that was the only n ' 
 I was acquainted wit'i. Being such an exemnlary character, I managed 
 st€er clear of everything. (Laughter.) We therefore feel some justiHcat: 
 in asking t!iis CummitlL-e to recommend that such antiquated rules be i 
 cinded. We also desire that better opportunity I>e given to postmen ; . 
 know the rules which they are required to observe. 
 
 0001) (HtXDlcr STUII'KS. 
 
 Oood conduct stripes with a special allowance are awarded to postmen 
 who prove themselves deserving after five, ten, and fifteen years" service. 
 Any man who aspires to obtain a strij)e nnist prove Uy the satisfaction of 
 his sui)ervising officer that his conduct for the last five years has l»een of an 
 exemi)lary descrij)tion. punctual and exact in attending to his duties, diligent 
 in discharging the resp:)nsibilities appertaining to his position, which in- 
 volve facultie.s. menial and physical, under which might be mentioned assi- 
 duity, punctuality, sol)iiety on ami otf duty, honesty, tact, civility, un- 
 qualified subordination to su{x*riors, avoid violating any of the 136 rules 
 laid down for his guidance, which constantly brings into play the faculties 
 just mentioned, and in all resjiects prove liimself worthy of any honour the 
 Department may think tit to confer ui)un him. One would think that after 
 a man had successfully served under all these strictures, and received his 
 strijie or striiHJs. he would be entitled to some consideration, some leniency 
 from the Department he had served so well, but this is not so ; the practice 
 apjiears to l>e directly opposite, and the utmost harshness is used. I have 
 been inundated w ith bitter complaints from men who have been deprived 
 of their strijjcs for some error of judgment. Without dwelling upon the 
 .sympathetic side of the hardship imposed upon the man affected, I will en- 
 deavour to point out the injustice of adopting such stringent measures. A. 
 has to serve fifteen years ; his conduct and time-keeping lias been of an 
 exemplary description before his stripes are obtainable ; should he, after 
 obtaining liis stripes, take one false step, commit some irregularity, in view 
 of which his superior recommends strong punishment, he is immediately 
 deprived of that which has cost him years of much personal effort and ab- 
 negation. This entails not only official humiliation and public suspicion, 
 and perhaps to a certain extent evasion, but, worst of all, a reduction of his
 
 Good Conduct Stripes. 351 
 
 already-too-meagre earnings. Tliis extreme punisliment is most imjust, the 
 severity of whicli not only falls upon the man, but also on those who are 
 depeniling upon him for their living. I consider that any crime or irregul- 
 arity committed by a postman that does not warrant dismissal is amply 
 atoned for, and the Departmental dignity upheld, by depriving the offender of 
 his last strij)e, and in the case of a man with two strii^es offending, his first 
 offence should affect his third strij^ ; in the case of the offender holding one 
 stripe his crime ought to be laid against his second, and no punishment should 
 e.veeed 12 months' duration. This method of distributing the strij>es is very 
 unsutisfactory, inasmuch as they are seldom, if ever, given to the men when 
 due. There are hundreds of men at the present time with good records 
 anxiously awaiting for their overdue strijxjs. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You said that a man was lightly deprived of his stripes? 
 Is it not a fact that a local PoKtmuster has no power whatever t<i deprive 
 a man of hi.s strij^es, and that every case of deprivation nuist come before 
 the Postmaster-Greneral? 
 
 A. I did not know that. We are learning a lot now alx)ut the rules of the 
 Service whicli we did not know previously. So far as we knew, the Post- 
 master was the authority in this matter. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, tliese cases come before the Postmaster 
 General i)ersonally. 
 
 A. We deal with the Postmaster, and we know nothing about the Post- 
 master-Cieneral. If we send in a petition we never see the reply of the Post- 
 master-General. What we do see is the interpretcition of that reply by the 
 local Postmaster. We never roccive any communication from headquarters, 
 and we have to take for gninte<l tint what the local Postma.ster tells us is 
 correck. The men cannot obtain any information as to their detention or 
 relief to their apprJirnsions. Tliey are kept in a state of mental suspense 
 for months, sometimes years, without any .^satisfactory explanation. I con- 
 sider this a cruel and unwarrantable action, which could easily be avoided 
 by informing each man as his .stripe becomes due whether the report of his 
 conduct sent forward is of a suvtisfactory nature or to the coBtrary. Were 
 this done, it would allay much of the present discontent, and add to the 
 complacency of the men, 
 
 REmM XIKNDATIOXS. 
 
 Again I urge the necessity of uniformity in awarding punishments. It 
 is most essential for the well-l)eing of the Service that uniform regulations 
 should be drawn up ami issued in book form to every postman, containing 
 all information and instructions appertiining to his conditions of service, 
 i.e., wages, increments, stripes, allowances, pensions, promotions, hours of 
 duty, overtime, holidays. jHiniihments for late attendances, intoxication, and 
 other irregularities. Tuethods of appeal. ])etitions. Much can be said of the 
 advanfciges of ailopting this suggestion ; primarily, it will dispel a great 
 amount of ignorance, and enlighten the men as to their prospects ; they will 
 l>e able to see that there is such a thing as promotion for a deserving post- 
 man, and know what to look forward to as regards pension. They will be 
 acpiainted with penalties for breach of regulations, know how to appeal 
 if dissatisfied with decision of local Postmasters, and petitioners will see 
 the Postmaster-General's re])ly to their petition, or any exact copy of the 
 same, not the local Postmaster's version. 
 
 Now, my lord, the case that I was instructed to lay before you is com- 
 pleted. I have studiously avoide<l indidgence in extravag-ant language, or in 
 any way exaggerating the evils strewn in a postman's path. I have strictly 
 adhered to facts, believing that they would convince this Committee better 
 than any eloijuence of mine, therefore I consider I would be wanting in my 
 duty were I not to remind this Committee of the keen economising competi- 
 tion that is now raging between Postmasters, each striving for an economic 
 supremacy. The efforts to economise would be laudiible were it not that
 
 352 John Shields Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 postmen are very often tlie instruments used in this inhuman competition. 
 All punisliment duty worked, all increments arrested, all stripes stopped, ad<l8 
 to the economising glory of the postmen's judge. I ask is it right that the 
 true conceptions of economy should be prostituted in this manner? Is it 
 right that tlie surplus of the Post Office should he swollen by the mis- 
 deeds of postmen? Is it right that men should be trebly punished for late 
 attendance, and never get a farthmg for overtime worked? Does the severe 
 punishment add to the discipline, contentment, or benefit of the Service? 
 These questions I confidently leave in your possession, believing they will 
 meet with your imp;irtial consideration, and justice will be the outcome of 
 your deliberations. I hope I have been sufficiently concise to your lordship 
 in pointing out the various recommendations so that tliey may meet with the 
 symi)athy and approbation of this Committee, and ultimately secure re- 
 cognition and adoption by the Dej)artment. Such will cordially meet the 
 object for which I am present before you — that of seeking redress on some 
 of the present ignominies existing among postmen, adding to and strengthen- 
 ing the efficiency and discipline of those of whom I have the honour and 
 j'leasure to be a representative. 
 
 This concluded tlie evidence of the witness, and the Committee adjourned 
 until ^londay.
 
 J. G. WALTON, Newcastle-ojgt-Tyne. 
 
 Promotion. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, Feb. 24th, 1896, 
 
 Mr. J. G. Walton, of Newcastle, was next examined : — 
 
 The Chairman : You are going to epeak for the provinces, I think? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. You are a postman yourself; what is your position? 
 
 A. I am a postman acting as a stamper, my lord. 
 
 Q. Do you receive any allowance for that? 
 
 A. Yes; 4s. 
 
 Q. What do you get as a postman? 
 
 A. 28s. as a postman, 2s. for stripes, and 4s. allowance ; in all 34s. 
 
 Q. Is that at Newcastle ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wliat is the 4s. allowance for ? 
 
 A. It is the allowance paid to stampers in 2n(l class offices. 
 
 The Chairman : What are your hours of duty there ? 
 
 A. We have 8 hours within 12. The st;inipers' duties arc chiefly late 
 night duties, and we go on at midnight or come otf at midniglit. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: When do you go on yourself? What are your hours? 
 
 A. I go on from 12 till 2. 
 
 The Chairman : Is that in the middle of the day ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; and then I go on from 5.45 till 11.45 p.m. 
 
 Q. Do you do that always as a regular duty ? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; I rotate through five other duties. The second duty 
 begins at 11.30 p.m. and ends at 7 a.m. 
 
 Q. Do you get extra pay for night duty beside what you have already 
 told us? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; but we work only 50 minutes to the hour on night duty. 
 Q. You get a time allow::nce in lieu of pay then? 
 
 A. Yes. No. 3 duty ranges from 11.50 a.m. till 7.50 p.m. The next 
 dutv is 9.30 to 12, and 2 to 7.30 p.m., and the fifth duty is 1.15 to 7.30, and 
 9.15 to 11 p.m. 
 
 Q. Are your duties confined entirely to stamping letters? 
 A. No, my lord ; I do a variety of duties. On tlic night <luty I sort 
 forward pajjers and act as mail messenger and bagman. The other duties 
 are chiefly stamping and mail messenger duties. 
 
 Q. Do they keep you pretty continuously at work the whole time? 
 A. Yes, my lord ; it is very heavy work. 
 Q. Now, you wish to speak about promotion, do you not? 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 Q. In the provinces? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are there many such ca&es of employment as your own? 
 A. There are a tremendous lot over the country. I believe in Manchester 
 there are over 100 men. 
 Q. Employed in the same way as you are? 
 A. Yes, sir ; there are 29 at my own office. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think you a little exaggerate that. I don't think there 
 IS anything like that number. 
 A. They are classed as office men. 
 
 The Cliairman : Do you say that there are 29 men of your class on these 
 duties at your office? 
 
 M
 
 354 J. G. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 A. Yes ; but they are divided into diflferent sections. There are Parcel 
 Post men, porters, station messengers, stampers, and holiday relief men. 
 They are all classed as one, and they are looked upon as stampers. They 
 are simply divided into different sections to do the different classes of work 
 while on duty. 
 
 Q. But still doing these duties involves a distinct increase of pay? 
 
 A. It IS an allowance in lieu of Christmas boxes ; that is what it is. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is what you call it. It is not what the Department 
 calls it, is it? 
 
 A. I think it is, sir. I will give an instance that happened 12 months 
 ago. I asked the Postmaster if the position as a stamper was promotion, 
 and he said, "No, it was not." I asked him if it were in lieu of Christmas 
 boxes, and he said, "Yes." 
 
 Q. Are these positions very much sought after by postmen? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Q. Don't they like them? 
 
 A. In our office the men won't have them. Nine years ago, when I 
 used to sign for these allowances (they only amounted to 2s. then), the 
 sheet stated that they were in lieu of Cliristmas boxes. I believe there was 
 a question asked in the House of Commons on this subject, and after that 
 the heading " In lieu of Christmas boxes " disappeared. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Would you consider that 4s. was a fair allowance in lieu of Christmas 
 boxes at Newcastle? 
 
 A. Well, I do not know about that ; it is such a long time since I re- 
 ceived a Christmas box. I really do not know what they amount t-o. 
 
 The Chairman: These things are probably talked about in the offices? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have heard some of the men say that they had 30s., some say 
 that they get £5, and some even £10, but we do not look at it in that light. 
 I may tell you that this subject will be fully dealt with under the heading 
 of " Indoor 'men's allowaaces " by Mr. Wright. 
 
 The Chairman : Please go on with your statement. 
 
 PROMOTION. 
 
 Witness : Promotion in the provincial offices is a very burning question, 
 and on behalf of the provincial postmen I am requested to ask your lord- 
 ship's honourable Committee to give it due and careful consideration. We 
 as postmen cannot admit that the work of a sorting clerk is superior and 
 in some cases even equal to that of a postman. The postman has un- 
 doubtedly the most responsible and arduous portion of the work to perform, 
 especially in large centres, where he is the first and last to handle letters 
 transferred to the care of the Department ; therefore we cannot admit of 
 superiority in the sorting of a road to the sorting of a postman's walk. 
 We maintain that, no matter in what light the subject is viewed, in no 
 case can the work performed by sorting clerks be superior to that of a post- 
 man ; therefore we urge that 2nd class sorting clerks should not be officially 
 recognised as superior to postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Your argument is that you would not recognise 1st class 
 sorting clerks as superior to postmen? 
 
 A. I am not dealing with 1st class sorting clerks, but Lf it comes to that 
 point I do not think they are. (Hear, hear.) We further contend that the 
 duties, being similar, are of equal value and importance to the Department 
 as those of the sorters, and that if anything the postman is slightly more 
 responsible, inasmuch as he is left to control his own work on outdoor 
 delivery, whilst the sorter is supervised by two or three controlling officers 
 every time he is on duty. Practically speaking, the postman is performing 
 duties of equal value outdoor to the Department, whilst the sorter is perform- 
 ing sorting duties under more favourable and comfortable conditions, not 
 being exposed to the inclemency of the weather, and, under these conditions, 
 we urge that all distinctions, such as sorting clerks and postmen be swept 
 away, and all be placed on an equal footing and respect as between man
 
 Promotion. 355 
 
 and man should be. I will, with your lordship's permission, draw attention 
 to the official prefix of "Mr." given to a boy sorter, and withheld from a 
 postman of over 30 years' service. A man. having faithfully served the 
 Department, and grown old in the Service, must officially humble himself 
 to address a mere boy as "Mr.," whilst the boy can, with impunity, address 
 within the walls of all Post Office buildmgs any man of the postmen staff 
 as "Jackson," "Brown," "Smith," etc. This state of official conditions, 
 I submit to your lordship's Committee, is both disrespectful and degrading. 
 In support of this our contention, to show what little difference at present 
 exists between the sorting clerks and the postman's work will be clearly de^ 
 fined under the question of postmen performing special duties. The duties 
 and responsibilities of postmen's woi-k brings into active operation more 
 mental faculties and greater physical energies than that of any other body 
 of "men in the circulation department of the Post Office, inasmuch as a post- 
 man is the first to receive a letter and the last to dispose of it. He collects 
 the letters, conveys them to the office, stamps and in some cases sorts them. 
 Postmen have to exercise the greatest care in delivering to avoid complaints, 
 and, as they are brought directly in contact with the public, it devolves upon 
 them to display a large amount of taet and diligence ; they must always be 
 civil and obliging, and possess a sound knowledge of the local district and 
 postal matters in general, and they are responsible for and have to keep a 
 careful record of all changes of addresses, and re-direct all commimications 
 to the new addresses. In summer time the postman is responsible for the 
 re-direction of all corresi)ondence during the holiday season, and some postmen 
 have over 50 letters per day to re-direct, and as all money and other valu- 
 ables sent tljrough the Post Office have to pass through the postman's hands, 
 and all supplies of stamps for town sub-offices have to pass tlirough the same 
 source, lie is the sole protector, for the time being, of a large amount of 
 valuable public property, and is still held responsible for its delivery. Other 
 important functions performed by postmen 1 will not enumerate. I think I 
 have said sufficient to show that the nature of a postman's work is more 
 arduous and responsible than is generally supposod. Now, what is a 2nd 
 class sorting clerk? He is practically UDtliiiig more thnn a sorting postman. 
 When he t>nt.ers the Service his first iluly is genci'-il sorting, and then bag 
 opening; from that he will probal)]y be put on to despatch a road, and the 
 most difiicult part of ids work is that of local town sorting — a class of work 
 that the postmen have at their finger ends. Let me here illustrate what we 
 consider one of the anomalies of the present stjite of affairs. Two lads 
 enter the Service from similar schools as telegraph messengers, and, we urge, 
 belong to the same class of the comnnmity as sorters and telegraphists. At 
 the age of 19 both are appointed on the staff, one ;is a sorter and the other as 
 a postman ; the sorting clerk rises to the head of his class, then passes to 
 the 1st class, next into the rank of clerk, and finally will probably become 
 a 1st class Postmaster at a large salary, retii-ing on a large pension. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : All of them? (Laugliter.) 
 
 A. A good number do, sir. On the other hand, the postman advances 
 at the rate of Is. per year until he reaches the maximum of 22s. to 30s. per 
 week, according to the classification of the office to which he belongs, and 
 then goes on all his life at the same rate. There is no advancement for him, 
 and I submit that this, in the best interests of the public service, should be 
 changed. It is unfair ; " once a postman always a postman " is a state of 
 things that should not hold good. A man's fitness is the bsst recommenda- 
 tion a private employer can have, and why should not this be the rule in the 
 Post Office? Instead of this what do we find? Superior apwintments are 
 monopolised by the sorting force, and the greatest curse of all — favouritism 
 — holds full sway. 
 
 Mr. Smith : When showing the identity of conditions under which the 
 two lads entered the Service, you said they were appointed at 19. Now, as 
 a fact, did they not pass the same examination? 
 
 A. We want them to have the same examination.
 
 356 J. Gr. Walton, Newcastle-ou-Tyne. 
 
 Q. But that is not a description of existing facts, is it? 
 
 A. There is very little difference in the examination for postmen and that 
 for sorting clerks ; that is the examination I mean. 
 
 Q. The old examination? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, at Newcastle, I presume, the Post- 
 master makes a careful selection from among tlie telegraph messengers, 
 and picks out those who are best qualified for postmen and those who are 
 qualified for sorting clerks? 
 
 A. We find that nearly all the selections come from outside the Depart- 
 ment altogether, on the recommendation of squires ; they come entirely from 
 that source. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think you agree with the previous witness that Mr. Hunter 
 was a very fair Postmaster ? 
 
 Witness : I am not prepared to admit that, sir. I admit that he was 
 willing to meet the men and discuss their grievances, but that is all. We 
 respectfully submit all this should be done away with, and the way to pro- 
 motion would then be thrown open to all from the bottom to the top. Our 
 views as regards promotion, my lord, are that all positions over £2 per week 
 should be thrown open to postmen, and not monopolised by one section as at 
 present. I mean 1st cla.ss sorting clerks, inspectors, assistant-superinten- 
 dents, superintendents, and Postmasterships. In large towns inspectorships 
 of postmen are supposed to be given to postmen, but some Postmasters 
 have gone so far as to debar us from even those positions. In Liverpool 
 there are 22 inspectors to 634 postmen, or 3.4 per cent, of promotions. Of 
 these Messrs. Williams and Wilkinson were promoted inspectors from junior 
 2nd class sorting clerks ; two only of the 22 were admitted to inspectorships 
 when the age of 40 had been attained, viz., Messrs. Tipping, and Barrard. 
 The first-named was over two years acting, and passed over by several 
 junior men ; he had great difficulty in overcoming the Postmaster (Mr. 
 Rich's) prejuilice against age, and I understand the average number of senior 
 postmen passed over by Messrs. Robinson, Williams, Wilkinson, Gerrard, 
 Roberts, GoflFey, Lambert, Hicks, Thompson, Henderson, Fuller, Matthews, 
 and Raistel would be 250. Were the reasons in eacli promotion agamst 
 these hundreds of postmen stated in compliance with Rule 105 in the Post- 
 masters' Book of Instructions? In the case of Mr. Robinson, he was placed 
 to act as inspector while yet an assistant-postman of about three years' ser- 
 vice ; he must have been promoted over more than 300 postmen while having 
 had no experience as to the ways of men, and exercising no influence while 
 a postman. I understand his whole course has been to exercise the power 
 vested in him as a .severe and irritating disciplinarian ; he is disliked more 
 than any inspector in Liverpool by the men under him. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is this at Liverpool ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And is Robinson the man's name? 
 
 A. Yes ; Mr. Robinson. 
 
 Q. And you say he was promoted to an inspectorship after three years' 
 service ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? 
 
 A. I have not the date of it, sir. 
 
 Q. He was promoted straight to an inspectorship? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. In the case of Mr. Hicks, the Postmaster-General, in answer 
 to a question in the House of Commons, stated that Rule 105 had been 
 complied with, and Mr. Hicks was the fittest candidate. The rule is: — 
 
 (Copy of Rule not in present Postmasters' Rule Book, issued for the en- 
 lightenment of the staff) : — 
 
 On page 105, Postmasters' Book of Instruction — " Except to clerkships 
 of 1st class, all promotions from class to class, whether in the major or
 
 Promotion. 357 
 
 minor establishment, are governed by seniority, combined with full com- 
 petency and good character. 
 
 " Thus, on a vacancy occurring in a higher class, not being the 1st class 
 of clerks, recommend for promotion that officer of highest standing in the 
 class next below, who is qualified for the efficient performance of the duties 
 of the higher class, and has conducted himself with diligence, propriety, and 
 attention in his prasent class to your satisfaction. 
 
 " If, on the other hand, you feel it incumbent upon you to recommend 
 some officer other than tlie one of highest standing in his class, furnish a 
 tabular statement after the following specimen, giving the names and dates 
 of appointment of those you propose to pass over, and your reasons. These 
 reasons must be stated with precision in the colunm set apart for observa- 
 tions, such entries as "scarcely qualified," "has not given satisfaction," 
 being insufficient in so important a matter." 
 
 The tremendous discrepancy between the prospects of postmen and clerks 
 was shown to Mr. Rich about five years ago, and he said men should be 
 trained into supervisors from an early age. He stated as to Mr. Meals, now 
 chief clerk of Manchester, I believe, "Mr. Meals would be less favourable 
 to you than I am." Mr. Meals replied, " I would not, if I had my way, 
 promote postmen even to inspectorships." The witnesses of this are Messrs. 
 George Lunn and John Dodd. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When was this ? 
 
 A. Five years ago. 
 
 Q. What was the occasion? 
 
 A. My statement will show that. Mr. Limn was a senior postman, and 
 acted at one spell for two years as assistant-inspector, but, being passed over 
 by several junior men, he asked, when withdrawn, if he had given satisfac- 
 tion, and was told he had. Mr. H. H. Parrot acted as inspector eight years, 
 and was repeatedly passed over by juniors. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Jimiors in what? 
 
 A. Junior postmen in the Service. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do I understand that your claim ijj that promotion to in- 
 spectorship shall be by seniority? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; with comjjetency. Mr. M. Wilson, a well-educated and 
 long service officer, has repeatedly acted as inspector, but has been passed 
 (.ver by men he assisted to educate. Mr. John Dodd has acted as inspector, 
 but has \^een passed over by juniors. The method, then, in Liverpool, has 
 been for 19 years past to put senior postmen out of bounds for promotion, 
 so that no postman is eligible if over 40 years of age. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You state that a senior man, even if he is efficient, is passed 
 over? 
 
 A. Yes ; even if an efficient man. 
 
 Q. But not necessarily the best man? 
 
 A. I say if he is an efficient man to take up the position of inspector 
 he is passed over. 
 
 Q. But he may not be the best man, and in that case he would be passed 
 over. Is that so? 
 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Q. You would take him even if he were not the best man? Is that so? 
 
 A. Quite so. It should he governed by Rule 105 in the Postmasters' 
 Book of Instructions. 
 
 Q. You would take the senior man, although he might not be the best 
 man? 
 
 A. If the senior man is an efficient man, and able to do the duty, he 
 naturally thinks he Ls entitled to the position. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Just so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But is there to be no reward for special merit? 
 
 A. Well, that is where the opportunity for favouritism comes in, in 
 what is termed "special merit" in the Service.
 
 358 J. G. Waltox, Ncwcn.stlc-on-Tync, 
 
 Q. I presume there is such a thing as special ability, is there not? 
 A. Quite sn. 
 
 Q. And do you think that should go for nolliing in the Service? 
 A. Well, I have not seen much of it among tlie postmen. 
 Mr. Smitii : You say there is no sj)ecial ability among the postmen? 
 A. Of course we liave clever men among postmen — some of the cleverest 
 in the Service — but they liavo no clianue to slu)w (lieir ability. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You refeiTcd just now to vdiir ]iU' Postiii.'i.st<T, Mr. Hunter? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did he begin life? 
 A. As a ])osiman in Liverpool. 
 
 Q. And did he not rise tf) a very liigh jxisltiiin in the Department? 
 A. Yes ; I 1>elieve after being a postman some time he became a sorter, 
 and tlien went out as a postman again. 
 
 Q. But he has not passed all his life as a postman? 
 A. Not nnich of it. 
 
 Q. He was some time of his life a postman ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And he rose to one of the liighest positions in the De{)artment? 
 A. Quite so ; but wlien he entered the Service a very different state of 
 afifairs prevailed then to now. 
 
 Mr. Smith : According to your plan h'^, would not have been able to do 
 this unless through seniority? 
 
 A. I take it that according to the Departmental plan his appointment 
 was by seniority. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Which appointment? 
 
 A. The Postmaster's appointment. I believe that such appointments went 
 by seniority when Mr. Hunter was appointed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean that Mr. Hunter was senior postman before 
 he was made sorting clerk ? 
 
 A. I jiresume so, sir. He was but a very short time a postman, then he 
 wont in as a .sorter, and tlien c-inu' back again as a postman. 
 Q. And after that lie became something else? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you think he was senior postman in the Service? 
 A. Prior to 1865 tliere was no distinction between the two classes. Tf 
 we go back 50 years at Newcastle we should find, I believe, there were only 
 10 postmen, whereas we have now 153. Fifty years ago it would not take 
 very long to become senior postman, and you did not want many supervising 
 officers in tliose days. To show the kind of promotion postmen get in 
 Liverpool, when six sorting postmen were appointed sorting clerks they 
 each forfeited 7s. per week allowance. In Cardiff, during the jjast few years, 
 there have been five vacancies for inspectorships. Postmen made written 
 application for these, and — and I wish to emphasise this — never even re- 
 ceived an acknowledgment. Sorting and telegraph clerks from other towns 
 were appointed. Tlie present inspector was a telegi'aph clerk — an assistant. 
 Mr. Dennis was never in the Service before he came to Cardiff ; he was 
 employed as a 2nd class sorting clerk for a few months, and then appointed 
 as assistant-inspector. This gentleman. I believe, came from the same part 
 of the country as the Postmaster ; a third inspector was a sorting clerk at 
 Newport. In Cardiff there are about 150 postmen, and I ask — Are all these 
 men totally unfit for promotion ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Who is this gentleman you are referring to? 
 A. Mr. Dennis, an inspector at Cardiff. 
 Q. Was his case mentioned on a previous occasion? 
 A. Not that I am aware of, sir. 
 Q. Do you know where he did come from? 
 
 A. I tlmk somewhere not very far from Cardiff; I can get you the in- 
 formation.
 
 Promotion. 359 
 
 Q. If he came "not very far from Oaidilf " he could not have come from 
 tlie same country as the Postmaster? 
 
 A. I am informed that it was the same part of the country. 
 Q. But the postman came from a place a long way away from Cardiff? 
 A. Yes, Worcester, I believe. It has never been known for a postman to 
 be promoted at Cardiff. I can give other cases wdiere postmen Iiave applied 
 for positions as 2nd class sorters, and the treatment they have received, 
 but I fear I would detain the Committee too long if I gave them all. I will 
 take Brighton as an example. The present Postmaster of Brigliton, Wilson 
 A. Hetherington, Esq., in reply to the question " Hoav many Brighton 
 postmem had been promoted during the past five j'ears?'' gave the numlier as 
 four. We have analysed these four cases of promotion. The nnnies of the 
 postmen (promoted during the past five years) are Mr. A. ^lantell, Mr. J. 
 Mantell, Mr. F. Dunstonc, and Mr. W. Stenning. We have nothing to say 
 regarding the cases of Messrs. A. and J. Mantell. We believe them to l>e 
 genuine cases of promotion. For reasons given below we think the cases of 
 Messrs. F. Dunstoiie and W. Stenning are not quite clear from the suspicion 
 of influence. First I will tske the case of William Stenning. This man 
 entered the Brigliton Office some years since — roughly speaking from five to 
 seven years ago. For a short time he did parcel delivery work, and after- 
 wards letter delivery. After that, and for some considerable time, he per- 
 formed indoor duty in ])arcels depot. While working upon this indoor duty 
 lie received an appoiutment as town postman. I may sa}"", my lord, with re- 
 ference to this case that I very much regret having to refer to it. But Ave 
 have evidence showing the state thi^ man was in when he was appointed 
 sorter. This would be about four years ago. From the date of his appoint- 
 ment as town postman until he was promoted to the appointment of sortin* 
 clerk, William Stenning never once performed a postman's duty. 
 
 The Chairman : What was the object of appointing him as a town post- 
 man if he were not to do any of the work? What did he do? 
 
 A. He would be employed in the sorting office, or as assistant clerk, per- 
 haps. Indeed, for montlis previous to his appointment as postman he had 
 not performed the work of that class. Further, during the whole time of 
 his service he never once wore the uniform. He was eccentric in his lie- 
 haviour previous to his appointment to a sorting clerkship. After spending 
 several months in the Sussex County Luna>tic Asylum he was invalided from 
 the Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say he was eccentric l>efore his appointment? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I am sorry to illustrate this case, l)Ut our evidence proves 
 that this man was m an unfit state wlien the Brighton Postmaster appointed 
 him as 2nd class sorting clerk. 
 
 The Chairman : What was the motive of the Brightoji Postmaster? 
 
 A. Favouritism. It seemed a very strange thmg to appoint him to do 
 responsible work when he was only fit for a,n asylum. Thi.s clearly proves 
 that this Postmaster does not pick the best men. He picked a man who was 
 very eccentric, and who used to go out uito the streets and try to mesmerise 
 horses .and that sort of thing. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: When did this happen? 
 
 A. About two years ago ; we have evidence to prove it. 
 
 Q. Evidence to prove what? 
 
 A. That the man was not in his riglit senses Avhen he was made a 2nd 
 class sorting clerk. 
 
 Q. Have you evidence to prove that the Postmaster loiew that fact? 
 
 A. I don't laiow about the Postmaster ; no doubt the superintendent did. 
 
 The Chairman : Was that the reason he was not sent into the town to 
 deliver letters — that he was not in a fit condition to do so? 
 
 A. That would give the postman a more responsible position tlian the 
 2nd class sorter. If he could not deliver letters he would not be fit to be a 
 2nd class sorter. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It seems to me tliat your grievance against the Postmaster
 
 360 J. G. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 is not that a hardship was inflicted on any particular postman, but that a 
 man was selected who was unfit for the appointment? 
 
 A. Yes ; I will prove that. This man, too, was not a senior nian. He 
 was a long way down on the staff. He had only been in the Service five 
 years altogether. Next I come to the case of Frank Dunstone. F. Dun- 
 stone was at one time a rural postman at Hassocks gate (under Brighton). 
 He was transferred to Brighton and imm»diately placed upon sorter's duty. 
 He has never done a day's work in Brighton as a pastman. Like W. Sten- 
 ning, he has never worn the uniform since he came to Brighton. After a 
 year or two on sorting clerks' duties, and after having been rejected by the 
 official medical man, by reason of his heart or something else being affected 
 through rheumatic fever, he received an appointment as sorting clerk. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : After being rejected by the official medical officer? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then how did he get the appointment without a medical certificate? 
 
 A. I do not know, sir. He might have got another doctor to pass him. 
 It is evident he did get in. After short service as sorting clerk he is given 
 the post of assistant-inspector of postman, a position he now holds. His 
 brother, Mr. Walter Dunstone, is a superintendent in Brighton in the same 
 office. Considering that vacancies on the sorting sheet are never advertised, 
 how is it possible bv means other than that of influence for a rural man to 
 be brought in, as l)unstone had been, and placed immediately on clerical 
 duties? Certainly not by reason of any dearth of postmen material in 
 Brighton that could be utilised for the filling up of vacancies such as these. 
 So much for promotions from the ranks of postmen during the past five years. 
 I shall refer to F. Dunstone again when dealing with the cases of inspector- 
 ship and assistant-inspectorships of postmen. Since the death of Mr. Cor- 
 ney, late inspector of postmen, Brighton, about eight years ago, the post of 
 inspector of postmen here has been filled by Mr. Geo. Wood, one time a 
 clerk there, now Postmaster of Poole, Dorset ; Mr. C. Weller, one time 
 a sorting clerk, now assistant-superintendent ; and Mr. F. Antram, one time a 
 sorting clerk, 2nd class, then assistant-inspector, and finally inspector, a post 
 he is now holding and has held since Mr. Weller's promotion. The post 
 of assistant-inspector has been created during the past two or three years. 
 Nothing was known about this until the post was filled. Afterwards they 
 learnt that applications for this post had been invited from the 2nd class 
 sorting clerks ; that Messrs. Coleman, Dunstone, and Antram had applied, 
 and that Antram had been successful ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Who was succe.ssful ? 
 
 A. Antram, a 2nd class sorting clerk. When the postmen heard that Mr. 
 Weller had been promoted to the post of assistant-superintendent they at 
 once petitioned for the post of inspector ; they at the same time petitioned for 
 promotion generally. The Postmaster granted them an interview, at which 
 there were present Me.ssrs. Braby (E.), Measor (E.G.), Cox (W.C), Trigwell 
 (Hove), and Barnes (indoor postman). This interview took place some eigh- 
 teen months ago, therefore we cannot quote verbatim, but this is something 
 like what occurred — " Postmaster said that he would nominate a postman 
 directly for promotion, but gave it as his opinion that the postmen of 
 Brighton had not the education or ability to warrant him nominating any of 
 their number. He also declined to put postmen to a practical test, such as 
 allowing them to work the holidays of the inspector or his assistant. With 
 reference to sorting clerkships promotions for postmen, he did not think that 
 they could pass the new examination. He was immediately asked if he had 
 ever tried a postman at that examination, and if not, how he came to sup- 
 pose that they could not pass it? He replied that having left school some 
 time they must necessarily forget. He was answered to the effect that all 
 postmen did not forget, and no doubt the men in the postmen's class in 
 many instances knew a deal more than they did when they left school. In 
 conclusion, he stated tliat he would carefully consider all that the deputation 
 had urged, and that he might be relied upon to do justice in the matter."
 
 Promotion; 361 
 
 Result — -Last October F. Antram, late 2nd: class sorting clerk, late assistant- 
 inspector, promoted to the inspectorship ; F. Dunstone, late 2nd class sorting 
 clerk, promoted to the post of assistant-inspector ; both inspectors are very 
 young in service and in age ; both have relations in the Service. F. Dun- 
 stone, as previously stated, is brother to one of the assistant-superintendents. 
 F. Antram is the nephew of Geo. Wood, one time clerk, one time inspector, 
 and one time superintendent there. Mr. Geo. Wood left Brigliton to take 
 up the Postmastership of Sheerness. He is at present Postmaster of Poole, 
 Dorset. The inspectors' holidays are performed by a 2nd class sorting clerk. 
 So much for the way in which inspectorships of postmen are filled up in 
 Brighton. We will now look into some other causes that have worked, 
 and are working to the detriment of postmen at Brighton. Nearly half the 
 number of sorting clerks at present on the Brighton staff have been brought 
 from other towns ; some have lieen fully established previous to taking local 
 appointments, others have received their appointments at Brighton. Indoor 
 postmen have helped these men, and are still helping some of them towards 
 a proper knowledge of local sorting. An iaistance of how postmen are in- 
 convenienced by the inefficiency of sorting clerks and learners performing 
 sorting clerks' duties — No. 27 S. clerk and No. 8 indoor postman sort news- 
 papers (local) together from 11 p.m. to midnight, into six divisions (E., 
 E.G., W.C., W., N., and H.P.O.) elementary local sorting. The papers are 
 supposed to be finished before midnight, at wliicli time the postman is 
 booked off duty. The clerk is off duty at 1.30 a.m. Sometimes the S.O.. 
 or learner, performing tlie sorting clerks' duty, knows so little of the local 
 sorting that the postman is called upon to stop half-an-hour overtime (gratis) 
 to clear up the work. The sorting clerk will sometimes call out thirty or 
 forty per cent, of the addresses. The postman takes part credit in any bad 
 sorting. We have seen a postman sorting locals with a learner on each side 
 of him asking almost every address. The postman lias his duty to perform, 
 which requires his attention, without having his mind drawn from his work 
 by the questions put to him by lads who will eventually take appointments 
 that are denied him, but which he helps to qualify them for. 
 
 At this point the Committee adjourned for luncheon, and on returning 
 
 The Chairman (addressing the witness) said : You are going to produce 
 cases of other men in the office whom you consider worthy of promotion? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Are you still on the Brighton case? 
 
 A. Still on that case. I will take the case of Fi-ederick Paul. After per- 
 forming duty as a telegraph lad, mail messenger, stamper, etc., Paul entered 
 the Parcel Post Depot 1st August, 1883, where he remained until 1895 — 12 
 years. Besides performing sorting and despatching duties during the whole 
 of this time, he has been placed upon clerk in charge or superintendent'.s 
 duty for several months in the year from 1888 to 1891. I will, with your 
 lordship's permission, describe the duties he is called upon to perform. No. 
 3 duty, 5 a.m. to 11.30 a.m., 4.30 p.m. to 6 p.m. He has in that time to 
 open office, receive coach, check bills, deal with charges or registered parcels, 
 total " S." bills for number of parcels delivered previous day, also check 
 sub-office and Brighton bills, responsible for the whole of sub-office bills 
 during day, also " N." bills during time on duty from 5 a.m. to 8.30. Sole 
 charge of depot from 5 a.m. to 8.30 a.m., 4.30 p.m. to 6 p.m., responsible 
 for the whole of the in and out mails. On No. 2 duty, 5.30 p.m. to 1 a.m., 
 he has much the same duty, heaviest desjmtches of the day to supervise, 
 sole responsibility from 6 p.m. to finish of duty, make all entries in despatch 
 book, any irregularities enter in diary, make up dead bag, supply informa- 
 tion for confidential inquiry braiach, missing or damaged parcels, etc., and 
 lock up de])ot at 1.30 a.m. When not performing these superintendent's 
 duties, Paul has been for the last nine years employed on sorting and des- 
 patching, making over 70 despatches a day. Recently these superintendents' 
 duties have been made much lighter by the addition of an extra clerk, a
 
 862 J. Gr. Walton, Newcastle-ou-Tyne. 
 
 properly-appointed superintendent has also been placed in charge. When 
 Paul made application for promotion he was refused. He was told that 
 holding a postman's appointment did not warrant him expecting promotion. 
 Mr. Walpole : Who was he told that by, do you know ? Was it by Mr. 
 Hetherington ? 
 
 A. No ; by the superintendent, Mr. Bennett. When Paul made the appli- 
 cation the Postmaster referred it to the chief clerk. Mr. Bennett, who 
 replied that he was a very good man in his way, but not sufficiently qualified 
 for even a 2nd class sorter's position. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That was not the answer given to us just now. You said 
 he was told that, " holding a postman's appointment would not Wjarrant 
 him expecting promotion." 
 
 A. Yes ; and that was the reply he got. 
 
 Q. But you have just now told us that the answer was that he was a very 
 good man, but not qualified for the position. 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Q. But there is a difference between the two? 
 
 A. The facts are these. He applied to the Postmaster in the first plac«. 
 The Postmaster referred the application to the chief clerk, Mr. Bennett, and 
 Mr. Bennett answered that he was a very good man, but had hardly suffi- 
 cient qualifications for appointment even as a 2nd class sorter. 
 
 Q. That is a totally different thing from what you put in the body of 
 your evidence? 
 
 A. But that is the reply he got from the chief clerk. 
 
 Q. How did you get hold of a reply which was presumably confidential, 
 being a conversation between the chief clerk and the Postmaster? 
 A. I beg your pardon. 
 Q. How did you get hold of the reply? 
 
 A. It was supplied to me from Brighton ; but I do not think that that 
 is a fair question to ask me. 
 
 Q. But it was presumably a confidential conversation ? 
 A. It is information supplied to me ; I can go no further than that. Con- 
 sidering the responsible duties Paul had performed, he was naturally upset 
 over the refusal of his application. Indeed, it preyed on his mind to such 
 an extent that, acting on medical advice, he took six weeks' holiday, visiting 
 various places at great expense to himself and friends. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: He took six weeks' holiday? Visiting friends? 
 A. He went to various places at great expense. His health broke down. 
 Q. But he went away on holidav ? 
 
 A. Yes ; on medical advice. On his return, still suffering with mental 
 debility, he was forced to go outside — the medical man saying that it was 
 absolutely necessarv for the sake of his health. Even then he had great 
 difficulty in getting permission to go out. He has an excellent character, 
 and has never once been booked late in 12 years. 
 
 The Chairman : Whan you talk of going outside you mean to deliver 
 letters ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. Next I will take the case of George BrLstow, one time 
 a telegraph lad, mail messenger, etc.. now appointed postman (indoor). He, 
 too, has an excellent character. He has performed, besides duties of his own 
 class, from 18 to 20 different S. clerks' duties, and there is not the slightest 
 question as to his ability. He applied for promotion and was refused it. He 
 was told by Postmaster that holding the appointment of postman did not 
 warrant him expecting promotion. 
 Mr. Walpole: Have you any proof of that? That is the same thing." 
 A. Y.S. 
 
 Q. Have you examined into it? 
 
 A. Yes ; these men are quite willing to prove each case. 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You say he was told that by the Postmaster, Mr. Hether* 
 ington? 
 
 The Chairman : Who also told Paul the same thing?
 
 Promotion. 363 
 
 A. Quite so, my lord ; and I may tell you that a late Postmaster at 
 Glasgow made the same statement to a Glasgow postman some years ago. 
 Here is the case of H. L. Barnes. During the past few years he has per- 
 formed as many S. clerks' duties as any other postman. Nothing is wrong 
 with his character. He applied in answer to advertisement in P.O. Circular, 
 some four or five years a^o, for a vacancy of S. clerk at Great Grimsby, 
 and received no reply. He applied for promotion as S. clei'k at Brighton . 
 some 18 montlas ago. His application was again ignored. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: When you use the expression "application ignored," you 
 mean that there was no answer at all. 
 A. There was no answer at all. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : This man saw the advertisement in the Post Office Cir- 
 cular, intimating that there was a vacancy, and applied for it? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that no answer is ever given to such applications? The 
 only answer is the filling up of the appointment. 
 
 A. Yes ; but nobody know.s who gets the vacancy, and a man may be kept 
 in suspense 12 months. If I apply for a sorting clei'kship at Hastings in 
 this way, am I to wait 12 months? Yet that is the usual course. No notifi- 
 cation is given, and nobody knows who gets the appointment. To sum up, I 
 have shown you tliat postmen have performed the majority of sorting clerks' 
 duties there, and I have a statement to hand in which shows that postmen at 
 Brighton practically teach the sorting clerks their duties. Bearing this in 
 mind, and also that some of the sorting clerks here have not performed any- 
 thing like this number of duties, we think that this shows clearly that the 
 argument of lack of ability thrown at them by the Postmaster is untenable, 
 especially as one of their number has performed superintending duties. 
 
 Mr. Smith : If the postmen perform all the duties of sorting clerks, and 
 there are from 18 to 20 indoor men, what work are they doing ? 
 A. Counter duties. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Then in that case they would be under the head 1st class 
 clerk, and would not be performing sorting duties at all? 
 A. They are 1st class sorting clerks. 
 Mr. Walpole : Have they done registration duties ? 
 A. I believe there is a list of the duties performed by them. 
 Mr. Walpole: As a matter of fact, they have not done registration work? 
 A. No. Another difficulty, and doubtless, if the truth could be known, 
 the key to all this injustice anent promotion, is the one of " relationship." 
 It is liardly to be expected that local authorities in the provincial offices 
 who may have sons, relations, or friends m the office as learners, are going 
 to recommend postmen for positions which they wish their friends to fill. 
 The son of the chief clerk at Brighton (H. Bennett) is a learner. Tlie nephew 
 of an assistant-superintendent (C. Weller) is also a learner there. These lads, 
 or young men, go into the Service perhaps about 17 years of age ; they re- 
 ceive no wages for about a fortnight, and then they are put on sorting clerks' 
 duties. They are what are called learners. At Newcastle we have what are 
 called " half-timers." Telegraph messengers come up to learn, and they are 
 paid 3d. per hour for learning theh- duties as sorting clerks, but in Brighton 
 it is the other way, I believe. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I do not understand your argument. 
 
 A. They have never been in the Service before ; they are not paid for 
 about a fortnight or three weeks, and then they are put on the laermaneut 
 staff. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They are kept on as learners until a vacancy arises on 
 the permanent staff? 
 
 A. I should like to refer to the case of Bemiett. Bennett is always em- 
 ployed on clerk's duties. Weller was placed on the duty of news examiner 
 before he had been in the office two weeks. I do not think that that is 
 a duty a boy should be placed on.
 
 364 J. G. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Have either Bennett or Weller been promoted? 
 
 The Chairman : No ; they have only just come in. 
 
 Witness : They came in as learners. 
 
 Q. When did they come in? 
 
 A. I think with the last .six month.s ; I can easily get the information. 
 
 Q. Are they learners now? 
 
 A. No ; they are on the staff now. Only a fortnight elapsed l)efore they 
 were put on the staff. One of them is a news examiner, and he was leai-n- 
 ing the duties only two weeks. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That is, his duty is to seek for surcharges, etc.? 
 
 A. Yes ; and these are duties often performed by sorting clerks. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : They attended a fortnight, and then went up for ex- 
 amination ? 
 
 A. No ; they are on the staff, but not appointed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But they are not apjwinted yet? 
 
 A. Not yet ; but they get wages. 
 
 Q. In fact, they are paid learners instead of unpaid learners? 
 
 A. They are receiving full pay— the minimum wage. 
 
 Q. Ai-e you certain of that. 
 
 A. I understand it is .so from the information I have received. 
 
 Sir A. Godley : What is the difference between a man appointed and one 
 unappointed ? 
 
 A. The latter is imestablished. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose that teclmically he is still a learner acting as a 
 substitute for another man away on leave? 
 
 A. He cannot be a learner when he is doing a full man's duty. 
 
 Q. He is doing duty as a substitute, is he not? 
 
 A. I cannot answer that ; but the position of news examiner involves 
 duties which are generally done by 1st class sorting clerks. Then there are 
 two other cases — Harris and Belward. Harris came into the office a middle- 
 aged man. The Postmaster tried to obtain for him the post of assistant- 
 inspector of postmen, but he was too old. He holds no proper appoint- 
 ment, but has been placed on the staff. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Has he got an unestablished appointment ? 
 
 A. Yes ; as a sorting clerk. 
 
 Q. He will never get beyond the small pay he is receiving, I presume? 
 
 A. Not unless they can fand some other place for him, sir. Belward was first 
 engaged two years ago as a temporary liand during the Christmas pressure 
 in the Parcel Depot. After that he was brought into the sorting office, and 
 immediately placed on bag opening and news examining — ^a duty which he 
 still continues to perform. He had not the slightest knowledge whatever of 
 the duty when placed on it. He is old and feeble, and between the age of 
 55 and 65. He has been sent home three times for being the worse for 
 liquor. The men say that they can prove this. He is now doing sorting 
 clerks' duties. 
 
 The Chairman : What I want to know is this, why have you brought tliis 
 Brighton case so spemally forward? 
 
 A. rTo show the discrepancy existing between postmen and sorting 
 clerks. 
 
 Q. Then it is not with the view of making any special charge against the 
 men at the Brighton office? 
 
 A. Well, yes ; to a great extent it is. These men have applied for promo- 
 tion which they are competent for, and tliey are denied it. 
 
 Q. Do you allege that in many offices practices are frequent such as you 
 describe as occurring at Brighton? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; and Mr. Wright, who follows me on the same question, 
 will supplement this case by further proofs. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mean deliberately to say such practices as those you 
 hate described at Brighton are prevalent ?
 
 Promotion. 365 
 
 A. Yes, very. 
 
 Q. In your own office? 
 
 A. I cannot say so much for my own office since we have got a new 
 Postmaster. 
 
 The Chairman : We shall hear the other side of the case even as regards 
 Brighton. Do not suppose, because I ask you this question, that I shall 
 take what you say as being a necessarily correct description of what is 
 taking place. Do you allege that in many offices tliroughout the country 
 promotion is given to men having relations in tlie office in a high position? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, we can prove it ; we have ample evidence. Mr. Wright 
 will bring this out, I believe. He will produce al list of towns where the 
 office staff is largely made up of relations of the supervising staff. He will 
 substantiate a lot of these charges as to the relationship question. I have 
 a case from Hastings which I had intended to bring before tlie Committee, 
 but as the names have not been supplied to me I will not quote it. My 
 lord, what chance has the postman against such abuse of local power? At 
 Stafford, T. Mountford and S. Powell performed sorting clerks' duties for a 
 long period. They applied for appointments as sorting clerks, and were 
 told they were not adapted for that class of work ; in the event of sickness 
 or pressure these men are repeatedly called upon to perform these duties 
 such as they have been informed they are not adapted for. To show the 
 discrepancy existing between postmen and that of every other body of 
 public servants as regards promotion, the following is a tabulated statement 
 of the number of the police force of Newcastle and Middlesboro', and the 
 staff of postmen. This table is to show the difference in the number of 
 promotions open to the police force according to the total number of the 
 force, and the number of the staff of postmen and the number of promotions 
 open to postmen : — 
 
 Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 Police Force, 231 
 
 Higher Appointments, - 46 
 
 Postmen, - - - 153 
 
 Higher Appointments, -,.-.. 3 
 
 HIGHER APPOINTMENTS IN THE POLICE FORCE. 
 
 Chief Superintendent, 1 
 
 Superintendents, 4 
 
 Inipectors of Police, 4 
 
 Inspector of Detectives, ...... i 
 
 Sergeants, 36 
 
 HIGHER APPOINTMENTS OPEN TO POSTMEN. 
 
 Ins^pector, 1 
 
 Assistant Inspectors, 2 
 
 MiDDLESBOROUGH. 
 
 Police Force, 86 
 
 Higher Appointments, 15 
 
 Postmen, 42 
 
 Higher Appointments, * 1 
 
 HIGHER APPOINTMENTS IN POLICE FORCE. 
 
 Chief Constable, 1 
 
 Superintendents, 1 
 
 Detectives, 2 
 
 Inspectors, 3 
 
 Sergeants, 8 
 
 HIGHER APPOINTMENTS OPEN TO POSTMEN. 
 
 Inspectors, ....:.-. i
 
 366 J. G. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tyne, 
 
 Policemen acting as clerks are allowed 2s. per week in lieu of uniform. 
 Detectives receive an additional allowance of 10s. jjer week ; vax^ancies are 
 filled up by seniority witli efficiency. 
 
 Open to Sorting Cleuks at NEWCASTLE-oN-TrNE. 
 
 Chief Cleik, 1 
 
 Superintendent, First Class, 1 
 
 Assistants, ,, ,, 5 
 
 Superintendents, Second Clas?, . - - . 5 
 
 Class of Clerks, 12 
 
 First Glass Sorting Clerks, 18 
 
 Second Class Sorting Clerks, 70 
 
 The Chairman : When you entered the Service the prospect of promotion 
 held out was one of the inducements to join, was it? 
 
 A. We do not know what the conditions are wlien we enter the Service. 
 We do not know what promotions are open to us. But Mr. Arnold Morley 
 said, in the House of Commons last May, that promotion was one of the 
 benefits of the Service. 
 
 Q. What was he speaking about then? 
 
 A. On the Estimates, my lord. 
 
 Q. Whau class? 
 
 A. The postmen's class, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : No, no, he was not ; he was fcilking about the Service 
 generally. 
 
 A. I think he quoted a list of men who had held the position of postmen 
 and had become Postm.asters. 
 
 Q. Rising to Postmasters? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; but you must remember that there are sub-postmasters at 
 £10 a year. 
 
 Sir A. Godley : You say that when you enter the Service you do not know 
 what your prospects are? 
 
 A. We do not know what promotions are open to us ; we do not know 
 because we have no means of finding out. 
 
 Q. No means at all of finding out when you enter the Service? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You entered the Service as a postman, did you not ? 
 
 A. Yes, sii". 
 
 Q. And knowing what advancement a postman has in his scales of pay? 
 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Q. You had no reason to know whether there was any prospect of pro- 
 motion beyond these scales at all? 
 
 A. No ; that is not known. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is that not exactly what you said ? 
 
 A. Not with referei-ce to London. I suppose that in the pro\inces a man 
 naturally has an ambition ; he wants to advance. '" Once a postman always 
 a postman " is not what he aims at, and Ave do not think it is right. 
 
 Q. Is it not the case that when you entered the Service you knew what 
 were your prospects tos a postman? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I did not know what else was open to me, in the Post Office. 
 When I entered the Newcastle Office there were only 50 postmen employed 
 there. Now there are 153, and promotion does not advance proportionately 
 with the number. I can show you a discrepancy between the position of 
 the sortmg clerks and the postmen at Newcastle. 
 
 Sir A. Godley : Do you think it is usual to enter the Service without 
 making inquiry as to future prospects ? 
 
 A. Well, new entrants are generally telegraph lads, who have had some 
 opportunity of knowing what is open to them. 
 
 The Chairman : What did you expect when you entered the Service as a 
 postman ?
 
 Promotion. 367 
 
 A. I thought I might be a Postmaster some day, my lord, and I have 
 that ambition yet. (Laughter.) Now, my lord, I now draw the Com- 
 mittee's attention to a revision just passed at Manchester. I find that two 
 1st class inspectorships have been given to the 1st class sorting clerks. 
 This, I submit on behalf of the Manchester staff, is a monopoly of the 
 sorting office. Looking through the Post Office Estimates for 1895-1896, 
 you will see that out of 398 sorting clerks in Manchester and district, 178 
 of them are in receipt of over £100 a year, whilst the Manchester postmen, 
 who number 610, ha.ve only 23 positions ranging from £100 to £230. In 
 connection with the paper on promotion sent us a short time ago from Man- 
 chester, I would like to add that great dissatisfaction prevails here owing 
 to several senior postmen of ability and of good character being passed over 
 by junior men for assistant-inspectorships. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You say "passed over by jimior men." Do you mean 
 postmen ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; this is taking place at the present time. 
 
 Q. Your charge just now was that sortmg clerks got the inspectorships ; 
 now you say it is the junior postmen? 
 
 A. Ye9, sir ; the chief inspectors of postmen have been created from Istl 
 class sorting clerks, and in Manchester, under the new revision, that re- 
 duces the prospect of promotion again. That is the present position of 
 affairs tliroughout the provinces. Postmen have nothing to hope for, nothing 
 to look forward to, but remain in the same groove for the rest of their 
 career. This we ask your lordship's Committee to remedy. We are of 
 opinion it can be easily accomplished in. such a manner that would benefit 
 both the Department and the country. What we would suggest, my lord, 
 is tlsat every man should enter the Service as a postman, and that one 
 exa.mination should qualify him for any position of the Service, as tlie 
 case withi sorters at present. Let every man do so many years as an out- 
 door postman, and then take up the indoor work according to his sorting 
 capabilities. If such a plan were adopted, we are confident the Service 
 would materially improve ; the staff having qualified in all its branches would 
 naturally attain a greater all-round efficiency. It would, in our opinion, 
 be one of the most economical reforms tlie Department could introduce 
 — and one of the most just and beneficial acts towards its servants. I am 
 specially requested to draw your lordship's Committee's attention to the 
 small number of vacant Postraasterships given to postmen, and would sug- 
 gest that all sub-offices, both town and country, with salaries of from £100 
 per annum, be open to postmen. These could all be made appointments 
 which would be looked upon as promotion for postmen. Mr. Armour, in 
 his evidence on behalf of the telegraph clerks, stated in three years — ^from 
 1890, '91, and '92 — 160 Postmasterships became vacant. Of these 142 
 were given to the postal branch ; not one of these appointments was re- 
 ceived by a postaaian. I have also here a table showing the number of 
 postmen, and the number of promotions open to them. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Before you come to that, I would like to ask a question 
 about the Manchester case. I think you said that at Manchester two 1st 
 class sorting clerks were promoted to be inspectors ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is it not a matter of fact that these appointments were filled up by 
 the promotion of assistant-inspectors? 
 
 A. The information I have is that 1st class inspectorships have been given 
 to 1st class sorting clerks. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, they were assistant-inspectors who 
 were promoted? 
 
 A. I cannot say that. The information I have is that these two positions 
 have been given to 1st class sorting clerks. 
 
 Q. In respect to the appointment of postmen to the smaller head offices, 
 I presume you know that a head Postmaster usually has to have a know- 
 ledge of telegraphic work?
 
 368 J. G. Walton, Newcastle -on-Tyne, 
 
 A. Well, I think the advance of science is such tliat we sliall get rid of 
 the telegraphs ; they are being killed by the telephones. I believe that the 
 Government are already introducing telephones in the sub-offices to a great 
 extent. Even on tlie Tyneside alone we find lots of offices that are wortli 
 at least £120 a year, with commission. 
 
 Q. The he.'Kl Postmaster at these offices is required to have a knowledge 
 of both the telegraph and postal business? 
 
 A. Some do not know telegraphy at all ; they get a girl in to do it. I 
 am referring, of course, to tlie sub-offices. 
 
 Q. But sub-offices are usually given to tradesmen, are they not? 
 
 A. Yes ; and we want that abolished. W« have in Newcastle postmen, 
 stampers, station messengers, and others who understand telegraph work. 
 Only the other day a station messenger was on the railway platform when 
 the railway telegraph clerk asked him to send a message for him, and he 
 did it, 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am not questioning the competence of some of the post- 
 men to do the work ; I am only venturing to doubt whether the ^eat ma- 
 jority of these men have had an opportunity to qualify for it. \ou must 
 remember they would be responsible for telegraph business. 
 
 A. Postmen are drawn from telegraph messengers, and they would have 
 a knowledge of the work. We have plentv of them amongst us. 
 
 The Chairman : Telegraph messengers liave no knowledge of telegraphy ? 
 
 A. Yes ; they get a knowledge. 
 
 Q. They could not get much knowledge of the manipulative work? 
 
 A. I do not say that they could take the position of a test clerk, but 
 some of them go into the telegraphic school. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They are simply telegraph messengers taking out messages ? 
 
 A. The difficulty about their going into the scliool is that the places are 
 taken up chiefly by female labour. 
 
 The Chairman : Thank you ; that will do. 
 
 The witness then M'ithdrew.
 
 Promotion. 
 
 369 
 
 The following tables were handed in by Mr. Walton 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 2 
 
 (c £ fe 
 
 a> 
 
 
 
 
 
 a 
 
 (D 
 
 o a 
 
 52 
 
 «1 
 
 s 
 
 a 
 
 1 
 
 a 
 
 "^ a ■ CO 
 
 a a S a' 
 
 2 § 
 §5 
 
 <s a 
 
 5 
 
 0) 
 
 til- 
 
 o r; cii 
 
 .9 5 
 1 a o 
 
 
 & 
 
 
 Q. 
 
 cc a> m 
 
 - S 
 
 
 pi^ 
 
 » 
 
 
 a 
 
 o 
 
 a 
 
 m "ti CD 
 
 ta 
 
 s 
 
 
 W 
 
 
 tn 
 
 
 ai 
 
 <;.2 •< 
 
 
 
 
 
 Liverpool, 
 
 1 
 
 
 6 
 
 12 ] 
 
 9 
 
 40 
 
 88 
 
 177 
 
 Manchester, 
 
 1 
 
 
 7 
 
 10 ] 
 
 5 
 
 36 
 
 108 
 
 220 
 
 Birmingham, 
 
 1 
 
 
 5 
 
 4 
 
 9 
 
 32 
 
 53 
 
 156 
 
 Glasgow, - 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 2 
 
 40 
 
 73 
 
 155 
 
 Bristol, 
 
 
 "i 
 
 
 4 
 
 9 
 
 9 
 
 29 
 
 69 
 
 Edinburgh, 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 12 
 
 14 
 
 58 
 
 129 
 
 Newcastle, 
 
 
 'i 
 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 12 
 
 18 
 
 48 
 
 Belfast, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 9 
 
 13 
 
 45 
 
 Cardiff, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 6 
 
 15 
 
 47 
 
 Birkenhead, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 18 
 
 Hull, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 7 
 
 io 
 
 31 
 
 Cork, - - - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 3 
 
 8 
 
 19 
 
 Derby, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 5 
 
 15 
 
 41 
 
 Northampton, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 20 
 
 Coventry, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 5 
 
 
 19 
 
 Plymouth, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 7 
 
 io 
 
 31 
 
 Nottingham, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 5 
 
 7 
 
 46 
 
 Gloucester, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 • 
 
 
 3 
 
 8 
 
 36 
 
 Huddersfield, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 13 
 
 Preston, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 3 
 
 5 
 
 27 
 
 Oldham, - 
 
 
 • .. 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 19 
 
 Norwich, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 4 
 
 8 
 
 26 
 
 Bournemouth, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 2 
 
 9 
 
 24 
 
 Oxford, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 5 
 
 4 
 
 17 
 
 Swansea, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 5 
 
 9 
 
 29 
 
 Aberdeen, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 3 
 
 
 5 
 
 4 
 
 27 
 
 Wolverhampton, 
 
 
 1 ... 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 16 
 
 Chester, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 20 
 
 Cambridge, 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 2 
 
 7 
 
 22 
 
 Southport, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 1 4 
 
 17 
 
 Greenock, - 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 3 
 
 15 
 
 Wakefield, - 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 20 
 
 Grimsby, - 
 
 4 
 
 "i 
 
 25 
 
 38 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 
 13 
 
 Postmasters, 32 
 
 106 
 
 BI 
 
 294 
 
 480 
 
 1522 
 
 Number of Promotions, 1050.
 
 370 
 
 J. Gr. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 Statement 6HowiN(i tub Numher of Pfomotions opes to 
 Postmen. 
 
 To^^^n. 
 
 
 
 No. of 
 Inspectors. 
 
 1 
 
 No. of 
 PoBtmen. 
 
 Liverpool, - 
 
 
 
 22 
 
 634 
 
 Glasgow, 
 Birmingham, 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 13 
 11 
 
 728 
 608 
 
 Bristol, 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 6 
 
 295 
 
 Edinburgh, - 
 Manchester, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 5 
 22 
 
 890 
 
 600 
 
 Newaastle, - 
 
 - 
 
 . 
 
 3 
 
 153 
 
 Belfast, 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 2 
 
 184 
 
 Cardiff, 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 .,, 
 
 150 
 
 Birkenhead, - 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 3 
 
 loO 
 
 Hull, - 
 
 . 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 125 
 
 Cork, - 
 
 - 
 
 . 
 
 1 
 
 40 
 
 Derby, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 94 
 
 Northampton, 
 Coventry, 
 Plymouth, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 3 
 
 38 
 
 56 
 
 111 
 
 Nottingham, 
 Gloucester, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 2 
 
 174 
 
 86 
 
 Huddersfield, 
 
 - 
 
 
 1 
 
 69 
 
 Preston, 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 2 
 
 65 
 
 Oldham, 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 1 
 
 60 
 
 Norwich, 
 
 . 
 
 , 
 
 2 
 
 109 
 
 Bournemouth , 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 2 
 
 92 
 
 Oxford, 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 61 
 
 Swansea, 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 2 
 
 78 
 
 Aberdeen, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 2 
 
 98 
 
 Wolverhampton, 
 Chester, 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 2 
 2 
 
 64 
 58 
 
 Cambridge, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 
 65 
 
 Southport, - 
 Greenock, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 "2 
 
 1 
 
 76 
 51 
 
 Wakefield, - 
 
 . 
 
 - 
 
 1 
 
 47 
 
 Grimsby, 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 
 52 
 
 Number of promotions open, 
 
 5451
 
 SAMUEL WRIGHT. Leeds. 
 
 Promotion. 
 
 Westsqnster, Monday Feb. 24, 1896. 
 
 Samuel Wright next took his seat at the witness table, and was thus 
 examined : — ■ 
 
 The Chairman : You are a stamper, are you not ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am a postman in charge of the largest district office in 
 Leeds. 
 
 Q. How many men have you under you? 
 
 A. 32. 
 
 Q. You are head of the office there? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I have full control. My duties are purely clerical. 
 
 Q. Have you control over the telegraph side of the office? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; that is done at another office a. few j-ards away, and 
 there a female telegraph clerk is in charge. 
 
 Mr. Walpole.: Do you do counter work? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the female clerk in charge does counter work, 
 
 Q. Then you are not responsible for the counter work? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am responsible solely for the deliveries and other duties 
 appertaming to postmen. 
 
 Q. For strictly postmen's work? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chaii'man : You are a postman ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I was appointed letter-carrier under the old name, so- 
 called. 
 
 Q. Do you get any special allowance? 
 
 A. Yes ; 5s. a week. 
 
 Q. Do you look upon that as extra pay for your particular work, or is it 
 in lieu of Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I have been an allowance holder ever since my first year's 
 service. I have been performing duties indoors appertaining to the postmen 
 class. 
 
 Q. Have you done deliveries? 
 
 A. Yes, I have done all postmen's work ; I liave done every duty that can 
 be mentioned. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you reside at your office? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And have fi-ee quarters in addition to the allowance? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With coals and gas ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you get free quarters, coals, and gas in addition to an allowance? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I must impress upon you before we jiroceed any further that 
 my wife, who has an allowance for cleaning up the offices, and for cooking 
 for the telegraph clerks and boy messengers, earns fully double the sum 
 that is paid to her. 
 
 Q. Has your wife an allowance made to her for this work? 
 
 A. Yes ; she has an allowance of 5s. a week, but 
 
 Q. I ajn not saying you are overpaid. 
 
 A. No.
 
 372 Samuel Wright, Leeds. 
 
 Q. But you get free quarters, coal, gas, 5s. a week for yourself and Ss. 
 for your wife. I suppose you also get payment for stripes ? 
 
 A. I get 28s. a week, 3s. for my stripes, and then there is a 5s. allowance^ 
 
 Sir F. Moflatt: That is 36s. altogether? 
 
 A. Yes ; 36s. altogether. 
 
 The Chairiran : Well, what are yonx going to tell us, Mr. Wright? 
 
 A. I am going to speak on the question of promotion, and to show that it 
 is practically a dead letter. The question I am requested to bring before 
 your notice is promotion for postmen. Witli your permission, as examples 
 of provincial offices, I will give the return of postmen promoted in the 
 Leeds Office .since 1883, wliilst the places of over 80 per cent, of the present 
 sorting force have been vacant or created. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Wliat percentage? 
 
 A. Eighty per cent. 
 
 The Chairman : Are you not going to tell us verj' much what Mr. Walton 
 has told us already? 
 
 A. I tliink you will find as we proceed that I take a different view. 
 
 Q. But which is the view of the Association? 
 
 A. I am representing the Association. 
 
 Q. Does not Mr. Walton represent the Association? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; he also represents it. 
 
 Q. Then which of you is giving the view of the Association? 
 
 A. Both of us, my lord. (Laughter.) These vacancies have been filled 
 over the heads of postmen " who were eligible " by outsiders on the nomina- 
 tion of the local authority : — Xumber of postmen who have received sort- 
 ing clerkships appointments, 6 ; number of postmen who have received 
 assistant-inspectorships, 3. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What do you mean by local authority ? 
 
 A. The Postmaster ; he has full power to nominate whom he thinks fit. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I only want to know. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: When you say "outsiders" do you mean telegraph 
 clerks and messengers? 
 
 A. No, sir ; as I proceed you will find out what I mean by outsiders. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mean that he brings young men into the sorting 
 branch fresh from school? 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I am afraid I must ask you agam, what do you mean by 
 "outsiders"? 
 
 A. I mean the sons and relatives and friends of the controlling officers. 
 It used to be a rule of the Service that the postmen's ranks should be ex- 
 hausted of competent officers before the Postmasters had resort to outside 
 ranks. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What for? 
 
 A. For sorting clerks. 
 
 Q. When was that a rule of the Service? 
 
 A. It was in the old order book. I have the rule here. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I shall be glad to see it. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is an outsider necessarily a relative of the Postmaster? 
 
 A . I am informed tliat the rule is out of date ; it went out of date only 
 two years ago. I have been in possession of this order for about five years, 
 and I brought it under the notice of Mr. Lee, but he ignored its existence. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What is the order ? 
 
 A. It is one addressed to superintendents and clerks, and says that when 
 an officer belonging to either grade is absent his duties shall devolve upon 
 the officer next below hun, provided he is competent to do the duty, and 
 that that officer's immediate inferior shall, subject to the same condition of 
 competency, do his work, and so it is to go to the lowest class. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I thought you said it was an order under which postmen 
 were to be nominated to places as sorters before outsiders. I may have 
 misunderstood you?
 
 Promotion. 373 
 
 A. It is a rule on page 105 in the Postmaster's Book of Instructions. 
 (Rule already put in.) 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That rule applies to promotion, does it not? 
 
 A. I am informed there is another rule in the same book that states ex- 
 plicitly that the sorting clerk class can only be filled from the postmen's 
 class. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is the ri'.le I ask you to read to me, not this rule. I 
 have already said I was nnawra-e of that rule. 
 
 A. But, sir, you must umiersLand that I have never seen this Post- 
 master's Book of Rules. In iue provinces we have not had access to it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You quo-*-e a rule. I was quite unaware of its existence, 
 and my advisers are unaware of it. I ask if you have got it? Wliere is it? 
 
 A. My friend, Mr. Macla.ren, will undertake to supply you with a copy 
 of the rule. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I thought you said you had the rule in your possession, 
 and that you tried to impress it upon your Postmaster two years ago, 
 and he ignored it? 
 
 A. This is the rule I was referring to. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then it is not the rule of which you gave us the sub- 
 stance? 
 
 A. There are so many rules I cannot understand them all. 
 
 The Chairman : I do not think you strengthen your case by talking of 
 a rule you evidently do not understand. 
 
 A. I will read the rule when I come to the paragraph. 
 
 The Chairman : You have shown us completely your utter ignorance of 
 the rule. You cannot give your evidence without being prompted by some 
 one else. 
 
 A. Yea, my lord, but 
 
 The Chairman: Why bring it forward if you do not understand it? You 
 have not been giving your own evidence, Mr. Wright. Every word you 
 have said has been prompted by Mr. Maclaren from behind you. I have 
 not interfered l>ecause I wished to give you every latitude. 
 
 Witness (continuing his statement) said : From the retum.s received I 
 find other large provincial towns are placed at a greater disadvantage than 
 Leeds, as the following list will .show the numbar of years since 
 a postman received promotion at any of the following offices, viz., Brighton, 
 4 years ; Gloucester, 8 years ; Halifax, 8 years ; Cork, two within 20 years ; 
 Huddersfield, 12 years ; Middlesborough, 10 years ; Plymouth, 18 years ; 
 Cardiff, promotion unknown. Mr. Morley, replying to a memorial from the 
 Leeds Office on the subject of promotion under date February, 1892, stated 
 that promotion for postmen was open up to and including Postmasterships. 
 To prove how completely this explicit statement of the Postmaster-General 
 is ignored, I would respectfully point out to this honourable Committee 
 that higher appointments are filled without being made known amongst the 
 postmen's staff. I am referring now to sorting clerks. In Leeds Office, for 
 example ; the same obtains in the majority of provincial offices. I have 
 never kno'rni it to be the case yet that a postman had been placed on the 
 board for a higher appointment at Leeds, nor for the last five years has a 
 postman been promoted at this office, with one exception, viz., the brother 
 of an assistant-inspector to an inspectorship of postmen at Doncaster. This 
 promotion was given without notification to the staff, and over the heads of 
 24 officers senior to himself. Now, my lord, we are told that we have a 
 court of appeal, and to show you how totally it is ignored, I will draw your 
 lordship's attention to the matter. To this appointment I personally entered 
 an official protest against the manner in which it was given, but to thLs 
 day I have not received an acknowledgment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How long ago was that ? 
 . A. Two years ago ; the day before Mr. Salisbury came to Leeds — ^the 28th 
 I'ebruary. This mode 6f filling up vacancies causes the greatest dissatii-
 
 374 Samuel Wright, Leeds. 
 
 faction throughout the staff, nor does it move in a direction of improving 
 the efficiency of the piil)lic service. Mr. Morley, speaking in the House of 
 Commons on the appointment of this Committee, laid special emphasis on the 
 fact of so many entrants to the public service being sons, etc., of those 
 already in the Service. This principle we, the i)ostmen, should be in full 
 sympathy with, provided it operated equitiibly witli all grades ; but to 
 show tlie pernicious effects of j)! icing loc;il nominations entirely in the 
 hands of the local authority, I will (piote the percentage of higher apjxjint- 
 ments above postmen held by blood relations, such as sons, etc., of the con- 
 trolling force, and compare them with those lield by postmen, as per 
 example, in the offices of Liverpool and Leeds. Appointments held by 
 blood relations of controlling officers in the Liverpool Office: — Mr. Robin- 
 son (chief clerk). 1 son; Mr. Whittingham (late D.), 1 son; Mr. Barrat, 1 
 daughter; Mr. Hall, 1 daughter; Mr. Jefferson, 1 daughter; Mr. France, 
 
 1 son; Mr. Isley, 1 son; Mr. Salkeld, 1 son; Mr. Walker, 1 son; Mr. 
 Mawson, 2 sons ; Mr. Nottingham, 1 son ; Mr. Turner, 1 son ; Mr. Sar- 
 gentson, 1 nephew ; Mr. Jefferies, 1 son, 1 daughter ; Mr. Salder, 1 son ; 
 Sir. Henderson, 1 son ; Mr. Barker, 1 son ; Mr. M'Elnighter, 1 daugliter ; 
 Mr. Hall, 1 daughter ; Mr. Scott, 1 son ; Mr. Davies, 1 daughter ; Mr. 
 Pordham, 2 sons ; Mr. Barker, 1 son ; Mr. Smith. 1 son ; Mr. Pacher (late 
 inspector), 1 son; Mr. Dannett (Postmaster of Wigan), 2 sons; Mr. Dufton 
 (pensioned superintendent), 1 son; Mr. Scott, 1 son; Mr. Burkett, 1 
 nephew; Mr. Hughes, 1 son; Mr. Webbs, 1 son; Mr. Lascelles (Post- 
 master of Ashton-imder-Lyne), 1 son; Mr. Pierce (Superintendent, Shrews- 
 bury), 1 son. Onlj^ 1 son and 1 daugliter of postmen occupy positions 
 above postmen. Leeds Office : — Mr. Carthage (chief clerk) , 2 sons ; Mr. 
 Fawcett (superintendent), 1 nephew; Late Mr. Cawood (first-class supt.), 
 
 2 sons; Mr. Dickinson (first-class supt.), 1 daughter; Mr. Hart (first-class 
 supt.), 1 nephew; Mr. Roberts (hrst-class supt.), 1 son; Mr. Metcalf (first- 
 class supt.), 1 nephew; Mr. Lockwood (second-class supt.), 1 son; Mr. 
 Britton (second-class supt.), 1 son-in-law; Air. Green (first-class supt., tely.), 
 1 son and 1 daughter; Mr. Graham (second-class supt., tely.), 2 sons; Mr. 
 Stones (second-class supt., tely.), 2 sons; Mr. Green (clerk, Circulation 
 Branch), 1 son. Sons of postmen: — Mr. Bentley (stamper), 1 son; Mr. 
 Westerman (stamper), 1 son; Mr. HellewelH (Parcel Post porter), 1 son. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : When you say " blood relations," do you include sons, 
 nephews, and cousins? 
 
 A. I include sons, nephews, and cousins. 
 
 The Chairman : You have not included cousins. They are all sons and 
 daughters. Do you contend that all these people in these lists are receiving 
 undue promotion? 
 
 A. I quote them because I think they have been brought in by the in- 
 fluence of the head Postmasters. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You meaji that "Mr. R." has got one of his sons into the 
 office. Is that so? 
 
 A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. And "Mr. W." has got one son in, and "Mr. B." a daughter? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you object to the fact that a gentleman in a high position in tlie 
 Liverpool Office lias brought his son into tliat office? 
 
 A. I do not object to the system of briuging into the office. I object 
 to their being pitchforked into the position of sorting clerks. 
 
 Q. There is nothing in this table to show that? 
 
 A. Most certainly there is. 
 
 The Chairman: Wliat is the position of the people named in these lists? 
 
 A. Tliey are all of the controlling force. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you mean that the sons as well as the daughters of the 
 gentlemen named are of the controlluig force? I see that they occupy all
 
 t*romotion. * 375 
 
 sorts of positions. They are sorting clerks of tlie 1st and 2n(l class and 
 telegraph clerks. 
 
 Q. Do you know any trade or occupation in which fathers do not intro- 
 duce their sons? 
 
 A. I do not know ; but I say that we should all have the same chance. 
 
 Q. The table does not show whether the chances are fair or not. As it 
 happens, I imagine that these things occur in every occupation. 
 
 A. My contention is that they should join the staff at the bottom. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But if they came in as sorting clerks and telegraphists, 
 do they not start at the bottom of then- I'espective classes? 
 
 A. Yes ; at the bottom of those classes. We have applied frequently 
 for promotion, and have been told that there are no vacancies, but per- 
 haps a week or two later these men are put into the position. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You think they should start on the postmen's scale ? 
 
 A. Yes ; at the bottom of the whole Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, the Liverpool Office is one where a 
 great many postmen are raised to sorting clerks, is it not? 
 
 A. I am not disputing that. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you mean to say that everybody entering the Service and 
 having a relation in it must always enter at the bottom of the lowest 
 paid class in the Service? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Whatever his or her qualifications ? 
 
 A. Yes ; whatever qualifications they may possess. 
 
 Q. If the entrant has not a relation in the Service, may he take any 
 position ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Everybody must enter the Service at the bottom, and you say there 
 should be no way of getting into the Service but by the lowest class? 
 
 A. Yes ; at the bottom of the lowest class. 
 
 Q. And that is your position? 
 
 A. That is my position. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Have all these people, all these sons and daughters, 
 to juss an examination for sorting clerks ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And it is a different examination to the postman's? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is a different examination to the postmen's. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would you have everybody enter the postman's class, and 
 permit nobody to become a sorting clerk or telegrajihist witliout? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But that would involve that nobody could get these appointments 
 until they came to a comparatively advanced age ? 
 
 A. I do not s'ay that ; what I do say is, that until they have proved 
 that they are efficient for higher appointments they should act as postmen. 
 
 Mr. Smith : The previous witness suggested that it should be done by 
 seniority. Do you agree with that? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think it should. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then if it were done by seniority they would not get pro- 
 motion to sorting clerkships or telegraphic appointments until they were 
 comparatively advanced in years, would they? 
 
 A. I cannot answer that question, not knowing the number of vacancies 
 which would occur. 
 
 Q. But is it not a fact? Must it not be so? 
 
 (This question was not answered.) 
 
 The Chairman : You say there is nothing to prevent the sons and daugh- 
 ters of postmen coming into the Service in the same way as these other 
 young people have done, provided they can pass the examination ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; but that is where the difficulty comes in. I have a 
 case here of a stamper in Leeds, named Porteous. He had a daughter in 
 a high grade school, who has obtained a scholarship there. She is very
 
 37*6 Samuel "Wright, Leeds. 
 
 clever. Slie tried to get into the Service as a telegraphist at the Leeds 
 Office ; she vrent to the telegraph school and jmssed the necessary prelimi- 
 nary examination, and they then told her tliere were no vacancies, but that 
 they would send for her when one occurred. About a month after, Mr. 
 Tuckett, then assistant-superintendent at Leeds, and now Postmaster at 
 Gateshead, brings his daughter in as a telegraph learner. She attended 
 the same school as the other girl, but liad been unable to pass the same 
 standard in the high grade school. Upon her father beuig transferred to 
 Gateshead she gets in as a counter clerk, but there is no vacancy given to 
 the postman'.s daughter, although several are open. This is, I think, a 
 proof that influence has brought this to pass. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What lias been brought to pass? I do not quite under- 
 stand ? 
 
 A. I am complaining that the postman's daughter was qualified by ex- 
 amination, and was not appointed, while tlie superintendent's daughter did 
 not qualify for the situation, and was ap])ointed. As I said, the postman's 
 datughter won a three years' scholarship in the high grade school at Leeds, 
 and the other could not win a scholarship. 
 
 Mr. Smith: Did she try? 
 
 A. Yes ; she tried and failed. But tlie other girl, being a po-stman's 
 daughter, she was completely ignored. I say that this is a proof of undue 
 influence being brought to bear in the ca.se of the other girl. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : What do you say was done in the case of the superin- 
 tendent's daugh1>er? 
 
 A. She came in as a telegraphist. 
 
 Q. And it was as a telegraphist that the other girl wanted to get in? 
 
 A. Quite so : and then the superintendent's daughter was transferred as 
 a counter clerk to Gateshead-on-Tyne, her father having been appointed 
 Postmaster of that place. I shall be al)Ie to give proof in every one of 
 these cases from the Liverpool Office. Xow I come to Leeds, and I find 
 that the same conditions exist. I wish, however, first to draw attention 
 to this important fact, that at the city offices at Liverpool there is only one 
 eon and one daughter of a postman occupying higher appointments, while 
 at Leeds there are three. The first two went in years ago as oflBce-mes- 
 sengers, or they would never have been in at all. The thii'd is a very 
 shady case, and a thing I would rather not go into. 
 
 The Chairman: I think we had better have it out. We had better go 
 into every shady case. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I would rather have it out, rather than have this Committee 
 think there are shady cases. 
 
 Witness : I do not wish to do the man a jjersonal inury in the eyes of 
 the public. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You need not give the name. 
 
 A. I can give the name. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Give us the facts without the name. 
 
 A. Well, I will call liim Mr. H. This man came in at the introduction 
 of the Parcel Post. He is a^ pensioner from the army. 
 
 Q. What did he enter as? _ 
 
 A. As a Parcel Post porter, and he holds that position to this day. 
 
 The Chairman: At what age did he enter? 
 
 A. Just under the age to be appointed on the establishment. I think he 
 was about 42 or 45 years of age. 
 
 The Chairman : I think the limit is 32. 
 
 Witness : Yes ; but it has been revised since then. He entered on the 
 introduction of the Parcel Post. This man has got a honse, and everything 
 free of cost. He has the house of the House Inspector, but does not per- 
 fcnn the duties of that ins^^ector. Another man performs them, and gets 
 an allowance of 4s. a week, without the privilege of living in the house 
 free. This man made particular friends, and was rather more familiar
 
 Promotion. 377 
 
 than I should be tempted to be with Mr. "Leal, when he was Postmaster. 
 Mr. Leal was pensioned oif two years ago. 
 
 The Chairman : Go on. 
 
 Witness : He used to dig up Mr. Leal's garden, and do such work as that, 
 and the result wa.s that he exercised great influence over Mr. Leal, and by 
 mea;ns of that influence he got his son into the Service over the heads of 
 several men with long service, who had applied for positions for their sons. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : What did he set him in as ? 
 
 A. As a sorting clerk in the Parcel Post department. 
 
 Mr. Smitli : Do you know whetlier he is doing his work efficiently ? 
 
 A. I am not prepared to say that. 
 
 Q. You don't know whether he is a man of exceptional promise? 
 
 A. I might say he had no more exceptional ability than 100 postmen in 
 Leeds Office. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You have not answered my previous question. You don't 
 know Avhether he does the work efficiently or not? 
 
 Witness : I beg your pardon. 
 
 Q. I want to know whether he is doing the work efficient! j^ or not? 
 
 A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. And you cannot say whether he is exceptionally promising or not? 
 
 A. I suppose he would be put on junior duties ; he would by degrees 
 become more efficient, the same as the rest of us. 
 
 Q. Do you know this case of yoiu" own knowledge? 
 
 A. Yes ; I know every individual connected with it, and I can prove aJl 
 I have said. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I understand you complain somebody was tiiken on, and. 
 not that other people were rejected? Do you know whether the man who 
 was appomted was the best of those who applied? 
 
 A. We have men in Leeds Office who applied for this position ; they 
 were men of service, and have sliown they were efficient by performing the 
 duties. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : In this case you are not complaining of the appointment 
 of tlie son or daughter of a superintendent, but of tlie son of a porter? 
 
 A. Yes ; of a porter, sir. 
 
 Q. And you explain his being appointed by the f;u;t of his fatlier assist- 
 ing to dig the Postmaster's garden? (Laughter.) 
 
 A. I do, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : All right ; I very much doubt it, but that is your ex- 
 planation ? 
 
 A. Well, I think it is a proof of undue influence. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Mr. Leal is no longer Postmaster, is he ? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And he h&s not been so for some years? 
 
 A. He has only been gone for two years, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : And the lad was appointed before Mr. Leal went away ? 
 
 A. Yes, previous to the appointment of Mr. Salisbury. My lord, the 
 postmen's contention is that individual interests are considered before the 
 interests of the public service. I humbly submit, on behalf of the postmen 
 of tJie United Kingdom, that the present mode of filling up vacancies as 
 sorting clerkships is a violation of the Postmaster-General's statement. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What statement? 
 
 A. That promotion was open to postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : On that point, pei-haps you will allow me to read the rule 
 which we were looking for. It states that — " Subject to the approval of 
 tlie Postmaster-General, who reserves to himself the right to nominate to 
 any vacancy he thinks proper, the Postmaster is entinisted with the nomina- 
 tion of sorting clerks, telegraphists, and town postmen, and it is incum- 
 bent upon him to discharge his trust by getting the best qualified pei'sona 
 to act." Perhaps you will accept it from me that tliat is the rule which 
 governs these matters?
 
 378 Samuel Wright, Leeds. 
 
 A. I should like to know the dat« of that. I cannot accept it. It does 
 not seem to have been in existence at the time the rule I referred to was in 
 force. 
 
 Mr. Wfalpole : I believe you will find that I have read it correctly. 
 
 A. But tliat is in the new book? 
 
 The Chairman : The date of the book is 1893. 
 
 Witness : If a return of higher appointments open to postmen for the 
 past ten years were made, showing how these appointments were conferre<l, 
 it would clearly be demonstrated that the time lias already arrived, in the 
 best interests of the public service, for a clearly-defined system of promotion 
 to be introduced, whereby every person entering the public service com- 
 menced at the bottom class, and would feel assured that through his own 
 perseverance and industry a just reward w((uld await him. After showing 
 these returns on behalf of the postmen of the United Kingdom, I humbly 
 ask your lordship's Committee — Is it unre;x.s enable for us to assume that if 
 local authorities confer positions on those who surround them, they in 
 elevated positions will be proof against the influence of private friends, or 
 that influence in individual favour will be resisted? I will now give a 
 return of the number of vacancies to sorting clerkships in the following 
 provincial offices within the last two years, of which none have fallen to the 
 postmen's lot. Return of towns showing the number of vacancies as .sorting 
 clerks within two years : — Gloucester, 6 ; Darlington, 3 ; Huddersfield, 4 ; 
 York, 4; Stockport, 1; Scarboro'. several: Northampton, 3; BrEwlford, 4; 
 Wolverhampton, 4; Leeds. 19; Derby, 2: Great Yarmouth, 4; Widnes, 2; 
 West Hartlepool, 3; Bedale. 3; Doncaster, 4; Grimsbj^ 2; Swindon, 2; 
 Lowe.stoft, 5; Beccles, 2; Wakefield. 5; Shrewsburv, several; Rothesay, 
 3 ; Llanelly, 2 ; West Bromwich, 3 ; Shipley, 1 ; Cfiorley, 1 ; Maidstone, 
 5 ; Stockton-on-Tees, 3 ; Limerick, 5 ; Preston, 5 ; Harrogate, 1 ; Kilmar- 
 nock, 2 ; Ayr, 2 ; Tiverton, several ; Worthington, 1 ; Aberdeen, 12 ; South 
 Shield-s, 1; Stourbridge, 1; Croydon, 1; Rochdale, 3; Newport, Mon., 3; 
 Motherwell, 1 ; Staiybridge, 3 ; Wrexham, 3 ; Paisley, 2 ; Dalkeith, 1 ; 
 Blackpool, 2 ; Chester, 5. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What are these vacaaicies ? 
 
 A. Sorting clerkships, sir. 
 
 Q. In how many towns? 
 
 A. 49. In provincial offices postmen have made repeated applications 
 for promotion without success, the official reply to their applications ap- 
 pearing to be universal, viz. — a blank negative in these terms: — 1st, That 
 there are no vacancies : 2nd, that the applicant has no knowledge of sorters' 
 duties ; 3rd, that sorting clerkships should be filled by a better cla,ss of 
 men than is found in the postmen's ranks ; and 4th, that pastmen are not 
 sufficiently educated for these positions, not being able to perform clerical 
 duties. To the first answer I am requested to say that every vacancy for 
 a higher appointment should be exhibited amongst postmen in the Post- 
 men's Department. The replies 2 and 4 will prove fallacies, because post- 
 men to-day perform the duties of the sorters, and act as such whilst sorters 
 ai-e on sick or annual leave, which will be shown under the question of 
 allowances paid to postmen who perfonn special duties. To the third reply 
 I say that candidates for sorting clerks to-day are drawn from similarly- 
 educated lads of the same class and schools as postmen, the only difference 
 being, tliat one is locally I'ecommended. whilst the other has to fight his 
 own battle m the struggle of life. Seniority as a safeguard was formerly 
 some limitation ; that has been entirely set aside as regards postmen, and 
 is now looked upon as a condition more potent " than a black official re- 
 cord " to prevent their promotion. That this restriction was needed the 
 present mode of filling up vacancies clearly shows. The rule is aimed at 
 selection or arbitrary choice, not cnly as a protection to applicants who havo 
 made repeated applications to their respective chiefs for promotion, but 
 every senior officer sho«ld have been shown as imfit for promotion " as per 
 rule," and his unfirtp,ess defined. If thousands of postmen are in a clironic
 
 Promotion. 379 
 
 state of unfitness for promotion, I humbly request your lordship's honour- 
 able Committee to examine closely the treatment which has robbed them of 
 all inducement to self-improvement, for' at present it would appear the 
 rule is "once a postman always a postman." The present staff of inspec- 
 tors and assistant-inspectors of postmen have been chiefly drawn from the 
 sorting force, a great many having never performed postmen's duties, and 
 they show clearly, upon assuming such duties, they are totally unfitted for 
 the positions, having no experience, nor can it be expected they can com- 
 mand the influence over men under their control like a man of experience, 
 whose long and honourable service proves his title to full respect and sub- 
 mission, and, in addition, improves the efficiency of the public service. I am 
 also requested to draw your attention to the higher educational test im- 
 posed upoc future candidates for sorterships, Issued under date April, 1893. 
 Persons employed as temporary sorters prior to tliat date have, up to very 
 recently, been admitted imder the former lower educational test. Officers 
 thus admitted under the lower standard, when promoted to inspectors, 
 clerks, superintendents, Postmasters, etc., have not afterwards the slightest 
 higher test imposed. If necessary, from postmen to sorters, some higher 
 standard must also be necessary for such positions, and on these grounds I 
 claim that postmen who were on the establishment prior to the higher stan- 
 da,rd coming into operation should be exempt from it. and come under the 
 standard obtaining when they were placed on the establishment. To depart 
 from this tends to demonstrate partiality, and also commits a breach of 
 faith virtually upon the older members of the postmen's staff, from whom 
 an educational test should not be required any more than from the members 
 of the major staff on their elevation. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What do you mean by " partiality "J^ 
 A. By importing their own relations direct from school. 
 Q. Do you say their having to pass a higher examination, which is appli- 
 cable to everybody, implies partiality? How can it imply partiality when 
 it is applicable to everybody? 
 
 A. Yes, I do. You must understan<l this. A man may have been serving 
 the Department for years, and may have proved himself quite comj)etent 
 to perform the duties. Yet you bring in a boy fresh from school ; lie can 
 pass an examination whichi a man who has been long in the Service will 
 have practically forgotten, because he will have no incentive to go forward, 
 knowing that it would be practically useless to do so. 
 Mr. Walpole : I only wanted to know what you meant. 
 Witness : I maintain that it is a great hardship for men who have served 
 the Department faithfully for years " to have imposed upon them " when 
 asking for promotion a higher educational test than the one obtaining when 
 they entered the public service. Moreover, I contend that an ounce of 
 practical experience is worth more than any tlieoretical knowledge. Now, 
 my lord, I will show the great discrepancy at present existing as between 
 tlie numbers of higher appointments in the circulation branches and the 
 postmen's dejmrtment, showing the cost in each case of the following ten 
 provincial offices. I must impress upon the Committee to take special note 
 of the great percentage of promotion open to sorting clerks at present above 
 postmen in each respective department. I do not include either chief 
 clerks or Postmasters in this return. I commence with the class of clerks 
 and superintendents only : —
 
 380 
 
 SamueLjWright, Leeds. 
 
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 Office. 
 
 Postmen's Department. 
 
 
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 2,3(50 
 
 12,940 
 
 630 
 
 Liverpool, 
 
 82 
 
 265 
 
 20,020 
 
 22 
 
 634 
 
 3,710 
 
 16,710 
 
 269 
 
 Edinburgh, - 
 
 35 
 
 166 
 
 7,903 
 
 6 
 
 395 
 
 1,038 
 
 6,865 
 
 229 
 
 Manchester, - 
 
 96 
 
 328 
 
 17,140 
 
 24 
 
 610 
 
 3,770 
 
 13,370 
 
 282 
 
 Birmingham, - 
 
 52 
 
 210 
 
 11,470 
 
 11 
 
 581 
 
 1,840 
 
 9,630 
 
 371 
 
 Leeds,* - 
 
 22 
 
 100 
 
 5,255 
 
 4 
 
 300 
 
 580 
 
 4,675 
 
 200 
 
 Newcastle-on-Tyne, 
 
 23 
 
 88 
 
 4,600 
 
 3 
 
 153 
 
 380 
 
 4,220 
 
 65 
 
 Bristol, - 
 
 23 
 
 123 
 
 5,015 
 
 6 
 
 305 
 
 830 
 
 4,985 
 
 182 
 
 Cardiff, - 
 
 10 
 
 60 
 
 1,840 
 
 2 
 
 170 
 
 400 
 
 1,440 
 
 110 
 
 Derby, - . - 
 
 9 
 
 56 
 
 1,600 
 
 2 
 
 98 
 
 245 
 
 1,335 
 
 42 
 
 * In the case of Leeds one of the four is an Out-Door Inquiry 
 Officer, and does not perform any Inspector's duties, so the niunber 
 is practically three. 
 
 Q. Naturally, in your calculation you have not reckoned among the posi- 
 tions to whicli postmen can be appointed any nimiber of sorting clerks' 
 positions ? 
 
 A. No ; because we do not have any. We are practically debarred* from 
 them. 
 
 Q. But don't postmen get made sorting clerks at all in the provinces? 
 
 A. I have siiown we have not had one in five years at Leeds. I might 
 draw attention to this fact, that at Zvlanchester tvro postmen have possessed 
 a higher appointment, carrying withi it 7s. a week, and they are now willing 
 to go in as sorters at 7s. a week less wages than they are getting now. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You me<in they have an allowance as sorting postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; aiid they will lose that if they go in as sorting clerks. 
 
 Mr. Smith : But ther gain enormously increased chances of promotion ? 
 
 A. In some otfices they are allowed to carry with them their allowances 
 and stripes, but these are told they have to drop the allowance. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In any case they will carry the allowance for sorting post- 
 men with them? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; the last stamping postman appointed at Leeds carried his 
 allowance with him. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: When was tha.t? How long ago? 
 
 A. About eight years ago. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You think, as far as I gather, that the Department has 
 been extremely liberal to the sorting clerks ? 
 
 A. Yes ; it has been over-liberal to them at our expense. 
 
 Q. And therefore you tliink that, w'hatever we do, we ought to do nothing 
 for the sorting clerks ? 
 
 A. Oh. no ! I have not said that. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Witness (continuing) : My lord and gentlemen, whilst such sjiomalies 
 as those exist, I ask, on behalf of my brother postmen of the United King- 
 dom, can the Department expect a contented Service, can it expect an 
 efficient Service whilst postmen are to be kept out of all advancement, and 
 continue to be hewers of wood and drawers of water to the Ishmaelites of the
 
 Junior Postmen, 381 
 
 public service? On behalf of the future and the best interests of the De- 
 partment, I appeal to this Committee to recommend a complete reorganisa- 
 tion of the Service, and to begin to raise the status of new entrants by- 
 raising the examination foi' future postmen's appointments. Further, I 
 appeal to your lordship's Committee to recommend to the Postmaster- 
 General an equal percentage of higher appointments in the postmen's class 
 to compare favourably with the number of higher appointments already 
 in existence m the sorters' class. This I ask as a just reparation to hun- 
 dreds of deserving men in the public service, who, if it is not granted, 
 must remain postmen to the end of their days. Also, I would impress upon 
 this Committee the desirability of not allowing any officer's name to be 
 submitted for promotion who has less than ten years' service. 
 
 This finished the witness's evidence. 
 
 The Chairman : We will adjourn now till Thursday. 
 
 JUNIOR POSTMEN'S CASE. 
 
 Westminstee, Thursday, Feb. 27th, 189(3. 
 Lord Tweedmouth's Committee resumed their Inquiry into the grievances 
 of Post Office employees at the House of Lords' Committee-Room to-day, 
 all the members being pre.sent. 
 
 Mr. S. Wright was again called to speak on the case of the junior post- 
 men, and the special duties performed by postmen. He said : — ■ 
 
 JUNIOR POSTMEN. 
 
 I am specially allotted to bring under your notice the question of creating 
 junior postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Junior postmen ? 
 
 A. Junior town postmen. I mu.st, witbi the permission of your lordship's 
 Committee, refer back to the year 1890. At that period memorials were for- 
 warded from all parts of the United Kingdom, asking for the tojfcal abolition 
 of classification in postmen's ranks. This request the tlien Postmaster- 
 General (the late Mr. Raikes) granted. Upon announcing his revision on 
 July 23rd, 1891, in the House of Commons, the Postmaster-General informed 
 the House, "that on and from August 2nd, 1891,' classification in the post- 
 men's ranks would be abolished, and only one class would form the estab- 
 lishment, beginning with a minimum wage of 17s. per week, a retluction of 
 Is. weekly on the iarmer second-class minimum. We now come to Novem- 
 ber, 1891, when, to the a.stonishment of the provmcial postmen, a junior 
 class was created in several provincial offices, beginning with a wage of 12s. 
 and 14s. per week, rising by Is. per week annually, to 16s. per week maxi- 
 mum. After the promises given tjy the then Postmaster-General on behalf 
 of the establishment to the House of Commons, your lordship's Committee 
 will pardon us if we urgently urge upon you to inquire closely into the 
 authority obtained from Parliament for the creation of this class. We feel 
 agreed strongly that the creation of junior postmen is a breach of faith 
 to Parliament, also virtually a breach of contract to the Service. I would 
 also draw your lordship's Committee's special attention to this fact: these 
 men already served the Department about six years — that was prior to their 
 entering as junior postmen, having entered as boy telegraph messengers at 
 14 years of age, and thus practically serving an apprenticeship to the ad- 
 vantage of the Department. 
 
 The Chairman : Tliis is a very small class, is it not, Mr. Wright? 
 
 A. I do not know exactly the number, my lord, but when I prepared 
 this paper there were 204 of them. Our contention is that there was no 
 authority to create this class. 
 
 The Chairman : As a matter of fact, there are only 200. 
 
 Mr, Walpole : I cannot accept your statement tliat we had no authority 
 to create this class, I am quite willing to say this : the Department is at
 
 382 Samuel Wright, ^Leeds. 
 
 one with you about this class, and no further appointments will be made to 
 it. That will save time, will it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I am quite willing to save the time of the Committee, but 
 the question is: what about back j>a.y, and the service counting for stripes? 
 That is the next question I should like to put in. 
 
 (The witness then handed in several tables relating to the service of 
 junior postmen at Hull, Leeds, Portsmouth, and Manchester.) 
 
 Q. These junior postmen have only done six hours' work. In no case 
 did the}' do a full day's work. • 
 
 A. In the case I have here they did from 7 hours 45 minutes to 8 hours 
 a day, I think. 
 
 Q. I do not wish to contradict you, but I think it is hardly so. I did 
 look into the Leeds case some time ago. But I do not want to stop you. 
 If you wish to, go on. 
 
 A. The duty ranged from 4.30 to midnight at a Leeds District office ; 
 junior'postmen worked 8 hours 30 minutes alternate weeks. 
 
 The Cliairman : I think, Mr. Wright, that you might at any rate drop 
 so much of the junior postmen's case as refers to the question of the class, 
 and confine yourself to stating any points with regard to which you think 
 the existing junior postmen have a right to be considered. 
 
 A. My lord, if I could have the promise of the Secretary that these men's 
 cases will be looked into with regard to back pay, which we say they are 
 entitled to, I will withdraw the case immediately. Tliere is also the question 
 of the service counting for stripes. 
 
 Q. I do not think you can expect such a statement to be made by the 
 Secretary. I think the best plan will be for you, so far as you have any 
 particular point to urge on behalf of the existing junior postmen, to do so. 
 You had better tell us shortly what you have to say. 
 
 A. My point is that the class have a right to back pay from the date of 
 the statement of the Postmaster-General in the House of Commons. They 
 ought to receive the difiFerence as between 14s. and 17s. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What was that statement? 
 
 A. The Postmast^T-frenerars statement in the House, of Commons on 
 July 23rd, 1891: — "That on and from August 2nd, 1891, classification in 
 postmen's ranks will be abolished, and only one class would form the es- 
 tablishment, beginning with a minimum wage of 17s. a week," a reduction on 
 the existing 2nd class letter-carriers in the provinces of Is. a week. 
 
 Q. Then you hold tliat, after that, the Postmaster-Greneral had no autli- 
 ority to vary the rates of pay, or terms of employment of postmen? 
 
 The Cliairman : The witness's first point is, that the Postmaster-General 
 had no right to appoint this class of junior postmen at all. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : And I am a,sking whether there is no right to vary the 
 terms of the appointment of postmen. Does the witness say that the 
 Postmaster-General made a contract with Paidiament, and should never de- 
 part from it? 
 
 A. We contend that it is a violation of the pledge given to the then House 
 of Commons. 
 
 Q. Would you say, when a statement of that sort is made, you hold that 
 the Postmaster-General has no power, without the direct authority of 
 Parliament, to make any change m these terms? I do not want to press 
 you unduly — I want to understand if that is your point. 
 
 A. Tliat is our contention in the provinces. 
 
 Q. Then your contention is that he would have no power either to increase 
 or decrease the wages of the postmen? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I should be glad if you would give us an exact reference 
 to the quotation on which you rely. We have had search made for it in 
 the office, and been unable to find it. I do not dispute its truth, but we 
 want an exact reference to enable us to find the statement. 
 
 A. I took the statement out of the " Times." 
 
 The Cliairman : Of what date?
 
 Junior Postmen. 883 
 
 A. July 24th. 
 Mr. Walpole: 1891? 
 A. Yes; 1891. 
 
 The Chairman : I dare say you can get it m the library here, 
 Mr. Walpole : I am not defending the action of the Department. These 
 things are totally different to what the Postmaster-Greneral had in contem- 
 plation in 1891, At the time that he made tliat statement, I think it was 
 the fact that he was bringing men into postmen's places wlxo had served 
 in the army, and therefore they were older men, whom it was very unfair 
 to put on low rates of wages. When the junior class of postmen was re- 
 vived, it was revived because our medical officer thought it was unwise to 
 put telegraph messengers, who were growing lads, on a full eight-hours' 
 duty. He advised, therefore, for medical reasons, the establishment of aoa 
 intermediate class of jimior postmen, to work short duties at low rates 
 of pay until their strength was matured. 
 A. Very often those you think boys are young men. 
 Mr. Walpole : I am quite aware of that. 
 
 A. Their ages run to 23, 24, 25, and 26. Yet they are appointed junior 
 town postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am quite aware what their age was at Leeds, and that 
 is one reason why we want to abolish the class. They passed through the 
 auxiliary alass first, and then became junior postmen. 
 
 Witness : I am not referring to the Leeds case ; I am quoting tl le case of 
 Hull. The ages are similar at various towns in the provinces. These men 
 have been in the Service six or seven years. 
 Q. As auxiliaries? 
 
 A. As boy messengers and auxiliaries. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am not attempting to defend it ; I want to get rid of it. 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I want to understand what the witness's exact point was, 
 so as to save time, and I think now I've got that. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you might go on at page 6 with your evidence, 
 Mr. Wright. 
 
 Witness : I earnestly urge that eachi junior shall be paid in full back 
 pay from his junior appointment ; that is to say, the difference between the 
 12s. and 14s. and the 17s. per week. This I consider a just reparation 
 due to these men from the Department. 
 
 The Chairman : Of course you only make that claim, even from your ovm 
 point of view, in the ease of men who have been doing a full eight-hours' 
 duty? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. I mean that if a man has only been doing a six-hours' duty, you would 
 not expect him to be paid ? He surely would not have the same claim. 
 A. Our contention is that this thing had no right to be done. 
 Q. No, no ; that Ls aot the pomt. I can see that you may have a 'prima 
 facie case in favour of men who have been doing an eight-hours' duty to 
 receive the same pay as other men who were doing a similar eight-hours' 
 duty, but if a man's duties were confined to 5^ or 6 hours per day, it does 
 not seem to me he would have the same prima facie case as the man who 
 did the eight-hours' duty. 
 
 A. Probably not ; they would not have the same claim on the Department 
 if they worked only 6 hours per day as the men who worked 8 hours. I 
 must acknowledge that in justice to the Department. 
 
 Q. That, of course, limits the amount of back pay to be claimed very 
 much. 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, it would limit it; but the point I wish the Committee 
 thoroughly to understand is this : that the jimiors appointed prior to the 
 Raikes' revision are deprived of the stripes until they have been five years 
 on the full establishment, as it is termed, although these men have prac- 
 tically worked eight hours per day. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : T do not think you can make any claim for an increasing
 
 384 Samuel Wright, Leeds. 
 
 rate of pay on the ground that the appointment itself was an improper 
 one, and that the Department had no power to make it. That would be a 
 very good case for not paying at all — (laughter) — ^and I do not see where 
 your claim for altering the rate of pay comes in. I do not for a moment 
 dispute your claim, but I suggest that you should consider the matter from 
 the point of view that if there was no power to appoint, and if it were a 
 wrong appointment altogether, then the consequence of that is, that the 
 payment of wages was wrong. (Laughter.) But if you say that for certain 
 reasons these men have been made to do more work than was justified by 
 the smaller rate of wages, tliat is a good argument for asking for an increase 
 of wages, and tliat I understand you to be doing. 
 
 A. That is my contention, bur point is this : We contend that the 
 Department had no power to creat-e this class. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : .'Very well ; then they had no authority to pay the 
 men in it. (Laughter.) Don't get yourself into unnecessary difficulties. 
 
 Mx. Walpole : On behalf of the Department, and to reassure the junior 
 postmen, I may say that if there were no authority to pay, Parliament has 
 condoned our action by passing the pay every year in the Estimates. 
 (Laughter.) 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I do not want to destroy the force of the witness's argu- 
 ments. I only want to put it on this ground in self-defence. 
 
 Witness : I will presently show you the force of the argument, and also 
 that tlie position was pi*actically recognised at Leeds — ^by a most imusual 
 proceeding apparently. We now come to August, 1893. Leeds junior post- 
 men were emploj^ed on relief duties, and to somewhat allay the smouldering 
 discontent, 12 auxiliai'ies, transferred from boy messengers, were called 
 upon to perform the duties hitherto performed by the juniors. These aux- 
 iliaries signed the pay-sheet weekly for 17s. per week, and were ordered to 
 hand over 3s. per week to the juniors ; this practice was continued for some 
 time, when, ultimately, these men refused to countenance such a practice any 
 longer, and. eousequently, the juniors had to sign for 3s., as receiving an 
 allowance to that amount. This practice was continued up to the introduc- 
 tion of a revision of the establishment on April 1st, 1894. Mr. Morley, 
 replying to a memorial on the subject of junior postmen, imder date 10th 
 February, 1892, stated that the question had been brought before his notice, 
 and, in all probability, provision would be made for the total abolition of 
 the class on the next revision of the establishment at Leeds. The next 
 revision of the establishment took effect on April 1st, 1894. My lord, to 
 our astonishment, the junior class was increased from 12 to 20. (Here the 
 witness made a pause, apparently in order to allow the mind of the Com- 
 mittee to grasp the effect of the statement.) 
 
 The Chairman : Go on ; these pauses do not make your evidence more 
 weighty. Just follow on more quickly. 
 
 Witness : The greatest indignation pervaded, and a further memorial was 
 forwarded, pointing out the previous promise, the result being that the 
 Treasury have sanctioned a retluction from 20 to 6. I will now draw your 
 lordship's Committee's attention to this — that the time served as junior at 
 present does not count for stripes ; the actual service begins only when a man 
 is transferred to the senior class. Tliese men pass the same examination, 
 and receive the same certificate of appointment as men on the senior estab- 
 lishment. They pass no further examination, medical or otherwise. They 
 receive full privileges equal to senior established men in other respects. 
 
 The Chainnan : That is the case always, I suppose. The practice is that 
 only the service done bj'' full-time men does count for stripes. That is the 
 rule of the Department, whether rightly or wrongly. It does not apply to 
 juniors only ; it applies to auxiliaries, and very much the same point was 
 brought forward by them. 
 
 Witness : The point is that the juniors, prior to the Raikes' revision, 
 did full-hours' duty for two or three years in the junior service, and this
 
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 Promotion. 385 
 
 does not count for stripes. We have cases of this from Newcastle and Man- 
 chester. Our contention is that this time should count for stripes. To 
 illustrate this, let me point out that a man who has been three years on 
 the junior class has to serve the Dejxirtment eight years before he gets 
 his stripe. 
 
 The Chairman : Go on with your statement, please. 
 
 Witness : Rule 93 states the full conditions. No mention is made of 
 junior service a,s to the conditions of such service not counting for stripes. 
 I submit the names of two officers of pa.'^t junior service, whose service 
 up to now is not counting for stripes. On behalf of the juniors, both pa.st 
 ajid present, I ask this Committee to recommend to the Postmaster-General 
 that such service count for stripes, and that they receive full recompense 
 of whatever amounts are due to them for such services, providing their 
 conduct has been satisfactory. I next come to the r^uestion of postmen 
 performing special duties. 
 
 The Chairman: You are going into the ca.se of the indoor postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 THE CASE FOR THE INDOOR AND ALLOWANCE CLASS. 
 
 I am also requested to bring under your notice the special duties postmen 
 perform, and the important positions of trust and responsibilities these 
 duties involve upon those occupying them, also .the great discrepancy paid 
 in allowjinces, as between town and town, for performing similar duties of 
 equal value to the Department, w liieh are classed under several heads, as 
 follows, viz. : — 
 
 (1) Charge takers and assiskmt charge takers. 
 
 (2) Senior or assistant-postmen. 
 
 (2a) Ins{iectors of telegraph messengers. 
 
 (3) Sorting postmen. 
 
 (4) Stampers. 
 
 (5) Bagmen. 
 
 (6) Mail porters. 
 
 (7) Parcel Post packers. 
 
 (8) Holiday and sick relief men. 
 
 To show your lordship's Committee the responsible positions occupied by 
 this portion of the postmen's staff throughout the provinces, I will, as 
 brieily as possible, describe the nature of their duties and responsibilities. 
 
 CHARGE TAKERS AND ASSISTANT CHARGE TAKERS. 
 
 Charge takers are postmen occupying positions of full control of the 
 delivering force attached to the district oflScss belonging to such towns 
 where district offices are established. 
 
 The Chairman : That is what you are yourself ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. They receive and despatch all mails to and from the 
 hea,d office, deal with surcharged letters for their own district, receive all 
 registered letters posted witJiiu their district, check off and give out, and are 
 held responsible for all registered letters received for delivery within their 
 respective districts, arrange the duties of postmen under their control, deal 
 with official correspondence referring to their districts, answer inquiries 
 referring to complaints, make out wage schedules, and pay wages. Assistant 
 charge takers perform these duties in the absence of th3 cliarge taker, and 
 assist in the control. I should like, with the permiss'uii of the Committee, 
 to draw the Secretary's attention to the nundjer of r^'_;'.stered letters that 
 postmen in this position have to deal with. I have tak, n my figures from 
 the returns of registered letters received for delivery during the months of 
 December and January iast. I received 877 in December and 765 in January, 
 and surcharges to the amount of £1 10s. per week. I state this Ijecause the 
 Secretary made capital out of the Brighton case by saying that the postmen 
 had nothing to do with registered letter work. 
 N
 
 386 Samuel Wright, Leeds. 
 
 POSTMEN" ACTING ASSISTANT INSPECTORS OF TELEGRAPH 
 MESSENGERS. 
 
 These men have a large amount of clerical work to perform. Tliey make 
 out wage schedules, arrange duties, record dockets to the credit of the 
 messengers, and keep the following books: — ^Drill register, uniform, express 
 letter, late attendance, sick staff, diary, and book of instructions. They 
 have also to inquire into tlie delay and non-delivery of telegrams. 
 
 The Chairman : Wliat do you mean by drill register ? 
 
 A. It is a military drill and the attendances at it, as I under.stand it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean for telegraph messengers ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; for telegraph messengers. We have to register the number 
 of times they attend drill. Senior or head postmen perform similar duties, 
 and assistant-inspectors at small towns where no district offices are estab- 
 lished. Sorting postmen's duties are considered locally to de.d with cor- 
 respondence posted and received for local delivery to which town they 
 belong. To show your lordship's Committee the little difference which ex- 
 ists between the sorting clerk proper and the sorting postman, I will give 
 3'ou examples of the practical work performed by the two classes in tiie 
 offices of Liverpool and Leeds and Glasgow : — 
 
 Liverpool. H. — All correspondence posted and received in Liverpool is 
 first dealt with by t!ie postmen, who divide it into divisions ; the forward 
 goes into the C.B.. whilst the local is dealt with by the postmen. 
 
 Gla.sgow, H. — Town sorting postmen deal with all correspondence posted 
 or received for the local deliveries. Previous to this work Ijeing taken up 
 by postmen, it was done by first-class sorting clerks only. At present, on 
 the Glasgow and Carlisle Sorting Tender, where the work is done 
 wholly by sorting clerks, only first-class men are allowed to deal with the 
 letters, the junior men being confined to the news. N^ow, my lord, I wish 
 to press upon the Committee this point, that the postmen m the provinces 
 are performing the very self-same duties as the first-class clerks are doing. 
 
 Leeds, S. — Correspondence posted within the chief office district only is 
 first dealt with by the sorting clerk. The local is sent out in bulk to 
 be dealt with by the sorting postmen. Each district office deals with its 
 own local posted correspondence, sub-divides the forward into districts and 
 divisions, picks out certain towns, labelling the same which is forwarded 
 direct, this vv'ork bemg performed by postmen only. Now. my lord, we 
 come to what is called sub-offices, i.e., country offices under the control of 
 chief offices. In Leeds, what do we find? The sorting clerk making up and 
 despatching these mails, bi;t, owing to the large percentage of letters which 
 would be mis-sent, the postmen have to go through and check the sorters' 
 work to avoid mis-sending and complaints of delay. Tliere is one — to us a 
 very important point — which I must press upon thLs honourable Committee. 
 viz.', the mails run late, and consequently time is limited to the outgoing 
 mail. What do we find? Sorting postmen and stampers, etc., are used to 
 sort up the correspondence which should 1>e dealt with by the sorting clerk. 
 A postman at £1 Is. per week is performing duty side by side with the 
 sorter of £140 per annum, giving the same value, and owiag the same res- 
 ponsibilities to the Department. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you mean to say that in the same office you find sort- 
 ing postmen and sorting clerks standing side by side doing exactly the same 
 work ? 
 
 A. Yes ; standuig side by side, or rather, sitting side by side, doing 
 corresponding duties. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Is that a preliminary division of the correspondence? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is the preliminary division of the correspondence. Stampers' 
 duties are to change all stamps to proper time and date stamp all correspon- 
 dence, assist in the despatch of mails, performing the responsible duties 
 of sealing and sacking of bags into their respective divisions, detecting sur- 
 charges, sort forward newsjiapers, and perform similar duties to that of a 
 second-class sorter, with equal hours of night and day duty. He must have
 
 Promotion. 387 
 
 a thorough knowledge of the train service in hif? respective districts, and in 
 small towns does most of the local sorting of letters, woi'k sorting clerks' holi- 
 days, and have a general knowledge of all the work in the circulation de- 
 partment. Tile duties of b3gmen are to take charge of all empty mail-bags, 
 and distribute them to the various roads, or send them back to their office 
 of circulation. The m.en performing these duties must have a thorough 
 knowledge of the various "roads," and the circulation of many offices where 
 enclosures are circulated to. 
 
 The Chairman : Is the b igmen's work in tlie provinces all done by post- 
 men? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; all the bagmen's work. 
 
 Q. Is there no special class of bagmen in the provinces at all? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; they are postmen receiving allowances. The duties of 
 mail porters are very p.rcluous, owing to the heavj^ mail bags and Parcel Post 
 work combined. The gravest responsibility is also attached to this impor- 
 tant work. As an illustration, take a railway junction — say Normanton or 
 York. Railway connections are limited, trains run late, the mail porter on 
 duty has bags for north, west, and south. Trains are arriving and de- 
 parting from three or four different platforms ; the total time is perhaps 
 limited to three or four minutes ; bags have to be exchanged, unsacked, 
 and re-sacked. I ask, on behalf of these men, this Committee to look at the 
 terrible anxiety passing through these men's minds for the short time. They 
 know the full responsibility attached to forwarding a wrong bag in the 
 excitement of the moment ; they also know the Departmental view, and 
 that punishment generally follows in the case of one being sent wrong. 
 Can a sorter's position be of more value to the Department than this? 
 The sorter is under the direct control of the superintendents on duty, whilst 
 the mail porter controls his own work. He must also record all irregu- 
 larities, report all bags out of course, advise by wire offices of failure of 
 letter and ]>arcel mails, and report to the surveyor of the district causes of 
 failures ; as a rule the mail porter performs more clerical duty than the 
 ordinary sorting clerk. Parcel Post packers ])erform similar duties to 
 sorting clerks — sort parcels in several towns, and des])atch and receive parcel 
 mails, their duties being e(|ual to sorting clerks. In the jM'ovincial offices 
 there is a, certain percentage of Ihe outdoor force called holiday and sick 
 or relief postmen. This class of postmen is employed on every duty be- 
 longing to the postmen's department. Tliey ])erform the duties of assistant 
 charge taker, stampers, sorting postmen, and all other duties which postmen 
 generally- perform, when officers are absent on sick or annual leave. The 
 question of the stopping of allowances when off sick and on annual leave 
 in the offices where such a. rule is in force creates the greatest discontent. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it not a universal rule at some offices to pay allowances 
 to men when they are away on holiday or sick leave? 
 
 A. At some they do, my lord, and at some tliey do not. I know of a 
 case of a Manchester clerk who got none. 
 
 Q. Then the practice varies? 
 
 A. Yes ; the practice varies, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you know of any instance where, in the case of illness, 
 the allowance of a charge taker was knocked off? 
 
 A. Not in the present day, but I could give cases two years ago where it 
 was knocked off. It is only al^out three years smce it was allowed at Leeds. 
 I would draw the attention of your lordship's Committee to the Postmaster- 
 General's decision on the question of full pay during sickness. Reg. No. 
 171,074, .Tune 16th, 1894, under regulation C., paragraph 2, reads: — "That 
 wf^re such illness is due to causes beyond his own control, no dedriction 
 will be made from the officer's pay." After .such an explicit statement, 
 clearly shov/ing that wages are to l)e paid in full, and allowances being 
 officially recognised as wages, and paid on both Sunday duty and overtime 
 rate, how can this paragraph l)e construed for allowances to be stopped on
 
 388 Samuel WhIght, Leeds. 
 
 sick or annual leave in several provincial offices — to note, Manchester, Bir- 
 mingham, Cork, and Liverpool? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Your whole contention appears to be that the pay covers 
 the allowances? 
 
 A. Yes ; I say it does. If a duty is paid for as overtime at the Sunday 
 rate, as is the case, it must be considered as wages. My lord, I appeal 
 to this Committee to inquire into these cases, and refund whatever money 
 is due to everyone who has had tlie allowance stopped since June 6th, 1894. 
 This I ask as a just reparation to these men. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Somebody would have these allowances, even if they were 
 stopped ? 
 
 A. Tliat is a question I cannot answer. 
 
 Q. Don't you know, as a matt.^r of fact, that if the allowance is stopped 
 from one man it is paid to another? 
 A. No ; I cannot answer that question. 
 The Cliairman : Why do you take the date June 6th, 1894? 
 A. I think that was the date it appeared in the order-book. 1 am also 
 further requested to bring before your lordsliip's Committee the question 
 of advising that all sub-office mail despatches be performed by sorting 
 postmen, and the work he AvIioUy attached to the postmen's department. 
 In supjwrt of this I would draw your lordship's Committee's attention to 
 the fact that postmen to-day have to check off a great percentage of the sub- 
 office correspondence, or the sorting clerk'.s work, before it is despatched, 
 to avoid mis-sents and official complaints of delay. A considerable cost of 
 labour would be saved to the Department. 
 
 Mr. Waljxjle : Do you mean to say that these men had to check the 
 sorting clerk's work? 
 
 A. I mean that the sorting clerk divides tlie revision, and that the post- 
 man has to check and pick out the mis-sorts. 
 Q. In Leeds? 
 
 A. Yes, and in many other offices. I have instances of po.stmen receiving, 
 with allowances, about 24s. a week, the allowances amounting to 4s. or 5s.. 
 who have to check lirst-class sorting clerks' duties, who make up the .sub- 
 otfice mails during the day, and also during the night. Further, I ask that 
 the efficiency of performing their special duties be looked upon a.s an avenue 
 to promotion l)efore the claims of any person outside the Service are taken 
 into considei'ation, thus throwing open all future vacancies to a deserving 
 body of men, who.se claims to higher appointments to-day are ignored. 
 
 Mr. W"alpole : Is it not the case that this checking of letters sorted lay a 
 sorting clerk is only to find certain cases where there has been an alteration 
 in the district? Take your own case, for mstance : I am advised that in 
 order to prevent delay at tlie head office, the practice has been to sort the 
 bags from Armley and Wortley, which have just been added to the city 
 area, in the district offices. They have l)een examined in the presence of a 
 sorting clerk by postmen well acquainted with the district, to find out any 
 • letters which may have been mis-sorted. The postmen have a local know- 
 ledge wdiich the sorting elerk has not. Is that not the check to which you 
 refer ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. Armley and Wortley are in the district offices. 
 Q. Yes, they were, but they have just been brought within the city area? 
 A. Yes ; about six months ago. 
 
 Q. And the sorting clerks had not the local knowledge of these places 
 which some postmen had ? 
 
 A. There are other offices mentioned here. 
 
 Q. I am only taking one case as an illustration ; I do not want to go 
 through the whole list. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I should like to ask one question. I observed that you 
 read out the words " checked by postmen in the presence of the sorting 
 clerk "?
 
 Promotion. 389 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Yes, ib is So. They are checked in the presence of post- 
 men well acquainted with the district. 
 
 Witness : There are about half-a-dozen offices at Leeds where this is done. 
 Mr. Walpole : There are some other offices, I know. I have only taken 
 tlie case of one ; it is the same thing. In provincial office.s we find that 
 allowances vary from 2s. to 9s. per week, accortling to the classification of 
 the office. 
 The Chairman : Nine shillings a week ? 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What does that represent? 
 A. A sorting postman at Manchester receives 9s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That is merely retained by the existing holder, is it not? 
 
 A. I do not so understand it. 
 
 Q. That is an instance in which the Department has been exceptionally 
 liberal, has it not, and it has to mend its ways in the future. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. If the Department has been excessively liberal on one side, it has been 
 rather niggardly on the other. Our contention is that all officers performing 
 similar duties and equal responsibilities to the Department should be paid 
 on an equal footing, whether they be located in large or small towns. In 
 support of this I would draw your lordship's Committee's attention to the 
 high rents and cost of living in such towns as Harrogate, where the men's 
 total maximum wages are only 22s. per week. Harrogate is a much more 
 costly place than Manchestsr, yet the allowance is only 2s. per week. 
 
 Mr. Waljjole : The HaiTogate case has been mentioned before in this 
 Committee. Is it not a fact that a memorial has t>een addressed to the 
 Postmaster-General asking for an increase of pay to the Harrogate postmen? 
 Do you know that? 
 
 A. I have no recollection of it. 
 
 Q. It is a fact. I will ask you — I do not expect you will be able to 
 answer — is it not the case that the Postmaster-General did not reply to 
 that memorial liecause he said the matter was jiending before this Com- 
 mittee, and he could not interfere with it? 
 
 A. I have no knowledge of that. In conclusion, my lord and gentlemen, 
 on behalf of the future, and tlie best interest of the public service by the 
 postmen of Ofoat Piitain and Ireland, "with few exceptions," I am directed 
 from a Conference held last year in the city of Glasgow, to urge upon this 
 honourable Committee to recommend tliat allowances as now paid be incor- 
 porateil into the weekly wage, and made equal to those of sorting clerks, 
 their duties and responsibilities being indentical. In support of this I 
 will quote a case of injustice which has recently occurred in Brighton. 
 William Carter, acting sorting clerk, failed to pass on the old exammation, 
 and was offered and accepted a jiostnian's appointment about October last 
 year. In Deceml)er he is given three weeks' annual leave, and returning 
 to duty a week previous to Christmas, is given 3s. weekly allowance, which 
 is taken from A. Talmey, his senior, who has been i>erforming the duty 
 for months as indoor postman satisfactorily. Talmey is pushed out on late 
 collecting duty. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Let me look at this case, will you? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you know of this case of your own knowledge? 
 
 A. I know it of mv own knowledge ; I saw the man on Saturday. 
 
 Q. Who? Talmey? 
 
 A. At Brigliton, I saw a man ■pho gave me the information. 
 
 Q. Do you say it was Talmey, or Carter? 
 
 A. No ; I saw Paul. 
 
 Q. Then you do not k»ow the case of your own knowledge? 
 
 A. I will vouch for the accuracy of it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What office is he at? 
 
 A. Brighton. 
 
 Q. What rank does Talmev hold?
 
 390 
 
 Saimuei, AVrigiit, Leeds. 
 
 A. Talmey is a postman. 
 
 Q. Do you allege this as another instance of favouritism at Brighton? 
 
 A. It shows on the face of it it is a case of favouritism. I am told this 
 was done by the order of the Postmaster at Brighton. Here is a man who 
 fails to pass as a sorter. He wishes to stay as an indoor man. jjerforniing 
 indoor duties, but another man is pushed out of his place to make room 
 for him. It shows, on the face of it, that it is a gross ca.ve of favouritism. 
 In conclusion, I may say that, ap])ealing to your lordship's Committee. I 
 feel confident that they will investigate this cise, and give full protection 
 in future against the whims of capricious officials. 
 
 The Chairman : Thank j'OU. 
 
 The witness then %vithdrew.
 
 J. G. WALTON, Newcastle-on-Tync. 
 
 Indoor and Allowance Postmen's Case. 
 
 Westminster, Thursday Feb. 27, 1896. 
 
 Mr. Joseph G. Walton was next ro-calloJ, and further examined. He ^aid : — 
 My lord, supplementing the previous witoess on behalf of the case on post- 
 men performing special duties, I will draw your Committee's attention to 
 the fact of a return taken in the city office of Newaistle-on-Tyne of mis- 
 sorted letters sorted into walks by sorting clerks during one night's work 
 on January 16th. No. 2,512 — I may tell you, my lord, that in Newciistle 
 the town sorters are divided into 20 walks, and the sorting is entirely done 
 by sorting clerks. I have here a list showing the mis-sorts. On No. 1 
 walk tliere were 148 mis-sorts; on No. 2, 303; No. 3, 124; No. 4, 134; 
 No. 5, 89. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean that these were mis-sorted into the wrong 
 walks, or were they mis-sorts in the Avalk itself? 
 
 A. They were mis-sorted into the wrong walks. In No. 6 there were 74 ; 
 in No. 7, 73 ; in No. 8, 122 ; No. 9, 136 ; No. 10, 135 ; No. 11, 65 ; No. 
 12, 90 ; No. 13, 76 : No. 14. 107 ; No. 15, 111 ; No. 16, 30 ; No. 17, 198 ; 
 No. 18, 160 ; No. 19, 85 ; No. 20, 134 ; No. 21, 84 ; at Benwell, 63 ; and 
 at Gosforth, 11 ; total, 2,512. 
 
 The Chairman : Are these in one single night, or in one delivery? 
 
 A. The early delivery (early morning ])ost). 
 
 Q. What was the total number of letters dealt with? 
 
 A. I cannot give tlie total number, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You say there are 2,000 odd mis-sorts? 
 
 A. Yes ; 2,000 odd mis-sorts. 
 
 Sir F. Mo watt: Are these mis-sorts by sorting clerks checked by postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mean that the postmen put these all right afterwards ? 
 
 A. They sent them back again to the sorters to be re-sorted. The men 
 have been much delayed in getting out on their deliveries. 
 
 Q. The sorting to which j^ou refer is primary sorting, is it not? 
 
 A. No, sir ; it is local town sorting. 
 
 Q. It is not merely primary sorting? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Why is it done at Newca.stle by the sorting clerk? 
 
 A. I do not know. We had petitioned to get it altered for years, b.ut 
 could not get satisfaction. My lord, this system of sorting postmen has 
 lieen described as an extravagant one by a witness from another class, 
 but I submit that if postmen in Newcastle were wholly employed on local 
 sorting duties, it would be a great saving to the Department. First, a con- 
 sideral)le cost would be saved in labour through the correspondence being 
 correctly sorted, while a considerable amount would be saved m travelling 
 expenses on T.P.O. work, as the following example of what is paid in allow- 
 ances as between the sorter and postmen will clearly prove: — Newcastle 1: 
 1st sorting clerk, 18s. per week each; Newcastle 2: 2nd, 18s. Brighton 1: 
 1st sorting clerk, £1 4s. per week each ; 2nd, 18s. ; 1 postman, 12s. 
 
 The Chairman: Do you mean a man gets an 18s. allowance?
 
 392 J. G. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 A. Yes ; for T.P.O. work. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you mean to say that postmen wouhl be content to 
 do the same work a sorting clerk wouhl do witii a nmch lower allowance? 
 
 A. I do not say they could hav^e a smaller allowance ; I do say that they 
 would do the work in a more efficient manner. 
 
 Q. You say it would he a great saving to the Department. Surely if tlie 
 pay were the same to the postmen as to the sorting clerk, there would be 
 no saving of money? 
 
 A. You would not then have 1st cla.ss sorting clerks to do the work. 
 
 Q. You do not pro]>ose to give them a smaller allowance? 
 
 A. I am working on the allowance received by postmen at the present 
 time. 
 
 The Chairman : Exackly. 
 
 Witness : At lirighton No. 9 indoor postman's duty on T.P.O. is as 
 follows: — On duty 9.30 p.m., leaving Brighton 10.50 p.m. for London 
 Bridge, and returning to Brighton at 8.30 a.m. the following morning. 
 
 The Chairman: What! 11 liours? 
 
 Mr. Wali)()le : Wliat is ids duty? Is he an indoor postman at Brighton? 
 
 A. Yes. His duty was from 12 p.m. to 8.30 a.m. on Monday, and from 
 9.30 p.m. to 12 ]).m. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Was this on Tuesday? 
 
 A. No ; Slonday night. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Monday niglit? 
 
 A. Yes ; he comes on duty at 12 Sunday night, which is practically 
 Monday. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Was he on on Sunday night from 9.30 till 12? 
 
 A. No ; he came on at midnight, and st;iyed till 8.30 a.m. 
 
 Q. And again on Monday night from 9.50 till 12? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The duties are the same ail the week, except on Saturdays. 
 He Avorks 8^ hours on Saturdays, and Ihat brings him up to bSj hours, 
 I may say here, my lord, that he gets no allowance. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I cannot make it out at 63^ hours. I only have from 
 half-past nine to midnight, which is 2^ hours? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What other hours are there? 
 
 A. From midnight to 8,30 a.m. 
 
 Q. Is thei'e any interval between? 
 
 A. I believe there is an interval of two hours at London Bridge? 
 
 Q. Then this is a travelling duty? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; he is a travelling postman. He does local travelling and 
 sorting. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You said there was an interval of two hours ? 
 
 A. Yes, at London Bridge, but then this man is 52 miles from home. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You said he worked 11 hours a day ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole: His duty is to go to London Bridge and back, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Surely he cannot take 11 hours to travel 150 miles? 
 
 A. This man goes on duty two or three hours before he leaves Brighton. 
 
 Q. Possibly? 
 
 A. He takes on duty earlier. 
 
 Q. It is utterly impossible that the man should be kept on duty all that 
 time if he is chiefly doing T.P.O. duty ; the train would not take more 
 than two hours. 
 
 A. He has over two hours' sorting at London Bridge Station before he 
 leaves. He takes up the duty at London Bridge Station at 4.30 a.m. 
 This man, I take it, works 21^ hours' extra duty, and receives nothing 
 for it. He simply gets 12s. travelling allowance. 
 
 The Chairman : 2s. a day? 
 
 A. Yes, sir.
 
 Indoor and Allowance Postmen's Case. 393 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Have you any particulars with you? You say he goes 
 on duty at 12 o'clock Sunday night? 
 
 A. Yes 
 
 Q. That is at Brighton? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you know at what time the train goes to London? 
 
 A. I cannot give it to you now, as I have not it here, but I will produce 
 the correct time. 
 
 The Chairman : Go on, jjlease. 
 
 Witness : I will give a full description of his duties, which are as fol- 
 lows : — Ojjen maii-bags. viz., Brighton to sorting carriage, Steyning, Hen- 
 field, Beeding, Ucktield ; also Portsmouth line of bags, 9 in numlier. Hand 
 letter bills and register bags to sorting clerks. On the return journey he 
 sorts the Northern District correspondence, Avhich is the largest tUvision of 
 Brighton. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Wliat is the man's name? Tliis should be looked mto. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I thmk I shall identify the man easily. 
 
 A. Tliere are several men who rotate on the duty. The man who was 
 on duty last week was Barnes. 
 
 The Chairman : When you compare the allowances, you are comparing 
 the allowances of postmen with those of 1st class sorting clerks? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. You told us that the ordinary allowance apparently was 18s. per 
 week, or 3s. per day. There are several special circumstances in wliich 
 some 1st class clerks are given 24s., I believe? 
 
 A. Our men don't get 24.s., and I believe there are some cases where 
 men travelling with the mail only receive 9s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you those cases ? 
 
 A. I have not. 
 
 Q. The first postman at Brighton gets 12s. ? 
 
 A. 9s. is the allowance for postmen. I will draw attention to a sorting 
 clerk having double the allowance given to a postman, each performing 
 similar hours of duty, and having equal responsilnlities. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You want to extend that practice? 
 
 A. Yes ; we want to extend that practice. 
 
 Witness : I now hand in a list of towns where forward news are sorted 
 by stampers, who are held responsible for mis-sents. They are as fol- 
 lows: — Northampton, Southsea, Norwich. Diindee, Oldham, Wakefield, 
 Greenock, Cambridge, Bury, Grimsby, Ashton-under-Lyne, Stirling, Wool- 
 wich, Halifax, Paisley, Sunderland, Darlington, Perth, Southport, Wind- 
 sor, Chester, Devonport, South Shields, Wolverhampton, Birkenhead, Hull, 
 Cardiff, Torquay, Liverpool (all foreign news correspondence is .sorted by 
 stampers), Oxford, Bournemouth, Preston, and Sheffield. Herewith also 
 is a list of towns where local sorting is done by postmen: — Liverpool, 
 Manchester, Glasgow, Gainsboro', Birmmgham, Leeds, Bristol, Slieflield, 
 Chester, Swansea, Brighton, Bradford, Woolwich, Wolverhampton, Hull, 
 Halifax, Preston, Huddersfield, Gloucester, Norwich, Belfast, and Cardiff. 
 My lord, with your permission, we hand in a correction to the statements 
 of Mr. Latimer, of Birkenhead. Mr. Latimer is reported to have said 
 that postmen who were promoted to sorting clerks senior to men holding 
 head postmen's positions in Birkenhead, are only in receipt of £1 4s. per 
 week, whilst the head postman is in receipt of wages, etc., equal to £2 4s. 
 per week. This, we submit, is a gross misrepresentation, inasmuch as it 
 is impossible for any postman to obtain wages equal to that amount with 
 anything under 16 years' service. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What? Less than 10 years' service? 
 
 A. Yes ; under 16 years' service. Whilst, on the other hand, we find 
 sorting clerks at 10 years' service receive the full maximum of a second- 
 class sorter equal to 40s. per week. Postmen occupying such positions 
 as head postmen must be of exemplary character.
 
 894 J. G. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tync. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Your point is, Mr. Latimer said that the liearl postman 
 at ]Mrkeiihe<ul receives 44s. per week, ami you think he does not. 
 
 A. That is so ; his allowance is only 5s. He has 30s. a week, if lie is at 
 the top of the maximum, and that would he 15 years' service ; so lie cannot 
 have it. I say he gets £1 10s. wages, 5s. allowance, and 3s. stripes ; in 
 all 38s. 
 
 Q. Are you sure he has only a 5s. allowance ; there are some 7s. allow- 
 ances in Liverpool? 
 
 A. In Liverpool, but I do not think there are any in Birkenhead. 
 
 Q. Then you allege ttiere is a mistake of 6s.? 
 
 A. Yes ; a mistake of 6s. 
 
 Q. Do you think Mr. I^atimer wa.s taking into consideration the revenue 
 from Christmas boxes, uniform, etc.? 
 
 A. Charge takers do not got Christmas boxes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: So you are speaking of a cliarge taker? 
 
 A. Yes. Charge tiikers, st;impers, etc., do not get Christmas boxes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, the head postman docs get (Christmas 
 boxes at Liverpool ? 
 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. I am told he does ; I do not Mish to press it. 
 
 The Chairman: Mr. Latimer did include it; his statement was that the 
 hea<l postman received the maximum of 30s., stripes 3s.. an<l an allowance 
 of 5s., while his boot.s and uniform he valued at 2s. ])er week, and his 
 Christmas boxes at 4s. a week, making a total of £2 4s., against £2 for 
 the sorting clerk. That is the way he makes it up. 
 
 A. Well, that is not correct, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What is incorrect in it? 
 
 A. The Ciiristmas boxes. 
 
 Q. Don't you think Mr. Latimer knows better about that than you do? 
 
 A. No, no ! And then as to the question of uniform, I do not .see why 
 that should be treated as wages. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You are only contradicting the evidence so far as the 
 amount of the estimate is concerned. 
 
 The Chairman : The tiling is, you do not agree with Mr. Latimer on 
 two points? You say it is not fair to count in boots and uniform and 
 Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. Yes ; we count boots as wages, but not uniform ; boots are as re- 
 quisite hi one case as tie other. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You count uniform as wages when it comes to the ques- 
 tion of pension, don't you? 
 
 A. I think the Department do. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. And you take advantage of that? 
 
 A. Well, we take all we can get. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Chairman: Thank you; that is all you want to say, I suppose? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 The witness then withdrew.
 
 GEORGE GREGORY, of Poitadow-n. 
 
 Rural Postmen's Case — Wages — Dispauity uetween Town and Rural. 
 
 Westminster, Thursday FeV.. 27, 1896. 
 
 G«orge Gregory, of Port;idown, was the next witness chilled and ex- 
 amined : — 
 
 The Chairman : You are a iniral postman yourself? 
 
 A. I was, sir, for 15 years. 
 
 Q. Where? At Portadown? 
 
 A. Yes ; at Portadown at one time, and at Aliory at another time. 
 
 Q. For 15 years? 
 
 A. Yes ; 15 years. 
 
 Q. When did you enter the Service? 
 
 A. I entered the Service in December, 1872, and was appointed on the 
 16th February, 1873. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Appointed as what? 
 
 A. Rural postman. 
 
 The Chairman: What wages were you taken on at? 
 
 A. 8s. per week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How long was your duty? 
 
 A. About 4 hours and 20 minutes was the actual time of my walking. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Were you an established postman or an auxiliary? 
 
 A. I was an established postman. 
 
 The Chairman: What was the length of your walk? How many miles 
 did you cover? 
 
 A. About 12 miles. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: And was that the whole of your day's duty? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. A walk of 4 hours and 20 minutes? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I had to be in the office at 5.30 in the mornmg, and <lid 
 not reach home till 10 past 8. I reached the end of my walk at 8.10 a.m., 
 and started on the return journey at 5.50 p.m. 
 
 The Chairman: What time did you get back to Portadown? 
 
 A. At 10 past 8. 
 
 Q. And your walk was about 6 miles each way? 
 
 A. Yes ; 12 miles a day. Then, after 14 years, I was transferred to 
 another walk. 
 
 Q. You were on that walk till 1887? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. The walk was altered, but did not go on at the same rate of wages 
 all the time? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I got Is. a week rise about two years after I was appointed, 
 and I remained at 9s. a week, and I had 2s, for good conduct wtripes in 
 1883, I think it was.
 
 39G Geo^jge Greookv, of J'ortadown. 
 
 Q. Tlien you had two good conduct strii)es? 
 
 A. Yes; and that made my wages lis., and I was traasferred to a longer 
 rural walk extending to al)out 17 miles. 
 
 The Chairman: That was in 1887, was it? 
 
 A. Yes ; that was in 1887. I was only on it for about 8 months, how- 
 ever. 
 
 Q. How many miles? 
 
 A. 17 miles. 
 
 Q. And how many hours? 
 
 A. bjf hours was the actual time of walking, not counting the time I M'as 
 sotting letters V)efore I started, or sorting them after I came hack. 
 
 Q. Tlien I suppose you did nearly 8 hours? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: And what were vou paid for tliat? 
 
 A. I had 16s. 
 
 Q. Including stripes? 
 
 A. Yes ; including strii>es. I had 14s. wages and 2s. stripes ; the third 
 stripe was due at that time, and it was only when the surveyor saw me 
 and noticed that my stripes were bright, that he asked, " Was I not one 
 of the men recommended for another stripe?" At that time I had held two 
 sti-ijies for seven years, and I told him so, and he asked why I had not 
 got niore strijwjs. I said I did not know. He asked why I didn't know. 
 I told him I had made a.p])lic:ition. Then he asked me if there M'a.s any- 
 thing against me. I replied, "I think not." And then he said, "I will 
 look into it. He did so, and in a few weeks I got my third stripe, with 
 £2 17s. back pay. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then they treated you pretty fairly? 
 
 A. Yes, they treated me pretty fairly; but when I asked about the stripe 
 in the post office, they told me that when it was due to me it would l)e 
 sent to me. I do not look upon such an answer as that as satisfactory to 
 a man. 
 
 The Chairman : You were only eight months on that long walk, were you ? 
 
 A. Yes. I was next transferred to the Parcel Post department at Porta- 
 down, as a jsacker and i:)orter. 
 
 Q. When was that? 
 
 A. In April, 1888. I took the long walk in August, 1887. 
 
 Q. What wages did you then get? 
 
 A. 16s. a week with stripes, and a 2s. allowance. 
 
 Q. The wage was then exactly the same? 
 
 A. Yes ; 14s., with 2s. allowance, amd 2s. for stripes. I rememljer I 
 made a. mistake just now. It was after I came to the Parcel Post depart- 
 ment that I got my third stripe. 
 
 Q. What point have you reached? 
 
 A. I am not at the maximum. 
 
 Q. You are still increasing then? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Your pav rises from 16-. to 22s. ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : By Is. increments ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Now you are getting 20s. ? 
 
 A. I am getting 21s. a Aveek wages, wliich, with the allowance and stripes, 
 makes 26s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I thought you said you were transferred in 1888 ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you could not be at the maximum now. then? 
 
 A. No, su- ; I have 25 years' complete service'. I comjileted the 23 yearS 
 yesterday fortnight. I am now in my 24th year. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am glad to see you are not looking very exhausted 
 from your labours after 24 years.
 
 Wages — Disparity between Town and Rural. 397 
 
 Witness : I have done a great deal of labour in my time, but I am thank- 
 ful to say I am blessed with a strong constitution. I was never otf a day 
 sick, except when I had typhus fever, and then I was off for eight weeks ; 
 tliat was about eight years ago. I liad very hard work to do at that time. 
 I think my complaint in reft rence t« bring kept so long on a rural walk wdl 
 bear out some of the statements made by these mea. There were, when 
 I entered the tService, boys at school in the town to wliich I belong, who 
 got into the P.O., and are now sorting clerks, having passed over the 
 heads of postmen. I do not say by favouritism exactly, but still they 
 were pushed on. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : They came in as postmen ? 
 
 A. Yes ; as postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : At Portadown ? 
 
 A. Yes ; and they got these opportunities of promotion, wliile I was kept 
 on a rural walk. They were put in a.s town postmen, and whenever I 
 made an application I was told th.it telegraph messengers had a prior 
 claim to me. That wais the answer I got to the applications I made. I 
 know that when the Parcel Post commenced in 1883, I thought I had a 
 chance, but strangers were taken in who had never had any connection 
 with the Post Office at all, and these were given 16s. a week, while I 
 only ha<l 13s. I had already got two good conduct strij)es. 
 
 Q. Do you know any telegraph work? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I presume that at Portadown a sorting clerk is of necessity required 
 to know telegraphic work? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Might not that ba the reason wliy you were not chosen for a sorting 
 clerk's place? 
 
 A. Well, the application I made was for a town postmanship. 
 
 Q. I beg your pardon ; I thought you made application to be made 
 sorting clerk? 
 
 A. Xo ; town postman. These other men got in, and were allowed to 
 learn telegraphic work while doing postmen's duty, and they were then 
 transferred to the sorting clerk's duties. 
 
 Q. Your complaint then i.s, that these men were appointed town postmen 
 with a shorter service than you had? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I quite understand that. 
 
 Witness : I now come to the question of the disparity of pay between 
 town and rui'al postmen. As to why there should be such a disparity 
 between the wage of town and rural postmen located at the same office 
 has never received a satisfactory reply, officially or otherwise. To examine 
 the matter in detail. The cost of living is just as expensive for the rural 
 man as for the town man. Rents are equally higii for the one as the 
 other. If the town postman's wages aj-e inadequate — ^;is they undoubtedly 
 are — what is the case of the rural jjostmen, with from 2s. to 7s. per week 
 less? 
 
 The Chairman : Doing the same hours ? 
 
 A. Yes ; and doinu; the same class of work. 
 
 Q. Is that at Portadown? Have you a town postman there? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And what is the difference? 
 
 A. The difference there is 3s.. and l9s. is the maximum for the rural 
 postman, and 22s. for the town postman. This, of course, excludes stripes 
 and other allowances. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: It rises from 15s. to I9s. for rural {wstmen then? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And from 1&. to 22s. for town postmen? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. If the one is inadequate, the other must be starvation
 
 398 Gkokge Gkkgory, of Portadown. 
 
 wages. If tlie town man finds it difficult to make both ends meet, when he 
 is always at home for his food, liow must it be with the rural man, who 
 is obliged to keej) a lioiiie near the head office, and pay for lodgings and 
 meals away from that home every day? On tlie ground of responsibility 
 no difference can be justly made. Tiie rural postman has just as much 
 responsibility as tlie town postman. Rural postmen require a more varied 
 knowledge of jxjstal arrangements than town postmen. They are the 
 means of distributing the information on postiil matters which is done by 
 counter clerks in town. The public in these districts prefer to ask the rural 
 postman rather than the sub-postmaster, as they get a more satisfactory 
 answer from iiim. If the questions that a rural postman has to answer on 
 behalf of the Department in a yeiir were tabulated, they would form a good- 
 si/ed book. The postal condition-s are always varj'ing, and in order to 
 ke.'p hunself informed of tiiese varying conditions, a considera!)le portion 
 of his leisure is occupied in making himself ac'iuainted with the questions 
 which he knows may be asked. With mutters of this kind, a town post- 
 man has no trouble. He can refer his questioners to the counter clerk. 
 The property entrusted to his care may not be as much in quantity, but 
 the value in proportion will be higher, and he will have it longer in his 
 possession away from the controlling eye of the officials at headquarters. 
 Taking these things into consideration, it is bad policy on the jxirt of the 
 Department to pay men several shillings |)er week lower than town men 
 for no other apparent cause than that tiiey do their work in rural districts. 
 The Department gives tliese men responsible work to do. and entrusts them 
 with valuable property for delivery ; it also recognises them as doing a full 
 day's work. Now, to pay these men from 2s. to 7s. per week less for 
 doing exactly the same class of work is simply, to say the least of it, 
 put>ting temptation in their way, and such conduct is not creditable to a 
 public Department. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When you say from 2s. to 7s. a week less, you mean 
 that the maximum is from 2s. to 7s. less? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Not that they are paid that? 
 
 A. In Portadown the rural man gets 15s., tlie town man 16s. ; then 
 the latter rises 3s. higher than the former. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is it usual in other places ? 
 
 A. Yes ; m Belfast, for instance, there is a difference of 7s. in the maxi- 
 mum. 
 
 Q. Is there usually a difference in the minimum between rural and town 
 postmen, or is it peculiar to tliese cases? 
 
 A. There is a difference of from Is. to 3s. Having in view the fact that 
 the cost of living is the same for town and rural postmen, and that the 
 responsibility is identical, while in some respects rural postmen's conditions 
 of service are more exacting, we consider that circumstances justify similar 
 treatment to town and rural postmen in the matter of wages and other 
 emoluments. I now come to the case of rural postnien and their hours 
 of duty. The question of rural postmen's duties is a burning one, and I 
 will ask this Committee to give a very careful consideration to it on behalf 
 of the rural postmen of England, Ireland, and Scotland, as I have some 
 cases which I can quote which will show that the complaint is justly made. 
 In the case of any postman, the hours of duty are spread over too many 
 when they exceed 12 hours daily. Is there any public need for it, as far as 
 the lural postmen are concerned? In a few districts it may be necessary, 
 but when examined closely these districts will be found to be few and far 
 be'"ween. I have always been of opinion that a 12 hours' day on a rural 
 v.-alk, if made a rule of the Department, would satisfy the public generally, 
 and it is long enough, year in and year out, winter and summer. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you mean a 12 hours' day? Do you mean the duties to 
 be spread over that period?
 
 Wages — Disparity between Town and Rural. 39^ 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not mean 12 hours' work? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What, in your opinion, is the advantage of having it confined to 12 
 hours instead of 13 or 14? 
 
 A. I will explain that further on. 
 
 Q. You are going to develop it, then? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am going to develop it. Most of these walks are early morning 
 and evening walks ; a man has to le.ive home early in the morning, and 
 cannot return until the evening, and he is expected to stay out ui the 
 comitry all day. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Cannot he get home ? 
 
 A. No, sir, he cannot get home ; and some men who are on these duties 
 are oljliged to have lodging.s out in the country, wliere they can spend the 
 time they have to wait. 
 
 Q. Then they have to be away from hoine the whole period? 
 
 A. Yes. When I was on a country walk I had to le^ive home very early. 
 I was obliged to l)e in the office at 5.30, and it took me ten minutes to 
 get there, and I did not get back until about 8.30 in the evening. 
 
 i). Where did you'spend the intervening time? 
 
 A. Wherever I could. When not engaged at anything, 8s. or 9s. was 
 my wages, but I may say 1 had a special advantage, because I knew some- 
 thing of the linen trade, which at tliat time was very good, and I was able 
 to get some work to do at it; still, under the circumstances, I did not get 
 Isalf the value of mj- work. 
 
 The Chairman : What was the name of the place where vou ended j-our 
 walk? 
 
 A. Crabtree Lane. 
 
 Q. Were there linen works there? 
 
 A. Yes ; hand-loom linen weaving works. I gained a knowledge of the 
 trade as a boy. but I was only half-paid for what I did, because I could 
 not give my whole time to.it. I v.as doing double what I should have done 
 for the money. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Your work for the Department lasted 4^ hours, did it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; the walk took 4^ hours. 
 
 Q. You had leisure at this place where you stopped from 8.10 in the 
 mornmg till 6.10 at night? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And during that time you worked at the hand-loom weaving? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I understand that your objection to a longer period than 12 
 hours chiefly turns on the fact tliat a rural postman, hy reason of the 
 nature of his duties, cannot get home in the middle of the dav? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And you advance it as a special reason in the case of a rural postman? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. And another point is that this lunitation would give them 
 a better opportimity for social enjoyment and self-improvement, an oppor- 
 tunity which every young man should have, if possible. In order to meet 
 any objection that might be made l)y those who are opposed to allowing 
 the rural postman to return to his head office in the 12 hours from starting 
 in the morning, let them make out theii" claim for consideration, and if 
 they are in earnest, and want special facilities, let them pay a proportion 
 of the cost towards giving the rural postman overtime pay for the number 
 of hours he is detained through them from returning to the head office 
 over 12 per day. If this were done, it is wonderful how many grievances 
 (called public ones) disappear when they require paying for, if even a small 
 proportion of the cost is asked for. 
 
 Sir F. }>io\vat&: Do you think it would have the same effect on the Post 
 Office to state grievances thus? (Laughter.)
 
 400 GtORGE Gregory, of Portadown. 
 
 The question was not answered. 
 
 Witness : Wlien a question of tliis kind is raised, there are to be found, 
 in ever}' district, eccentric persons wlio have liobbies of their own. Very 
 probably one of these is in opposition to change of any kind, liowever 
 beneficial it may l>e to the public in general, but if such changes are for the 
 benefit of the few, the_y raise that very j)ointle.ss, but convenient cr\" — "The 
 j)ul)lic interests will sutler from the proposed change." Some of these per- 
 sons, if they had their way, would keep our rural postmen out till mid- 
 night if it served some hobby of their own, and call it a public grievance, 
 if it were not granted. We lay strong emphasis on these points, but 
 while we do so, we as strongly protest against anything detrimental to 
 the public seivice being in our minds. We deckre ourselves willing to 
 serve the public to the best of our ability, individu'rilly, and as a body. 
 But we respectfully a,sk that tlie public l>e served, and not a few favoured 
 individuals. If the jjublic service requii-es it, we are prepure<l to yieiil 
 without a murmur to the long hours, and do our duty to the public to 
 the l)est of our ability. But we maintam that in the vast majority of cases 
 the public do not require tiie services of rural jjostmen longer than the 
 time mentioned. To go into particulars. A rural postman ha-s his de- 
 livery over within four hours from the time he le§ves the head office. 
 If his day was to be completed in 12 hours, that would allow four hours 
 for replies to be made to letters he delivered in the morning at the end of 
 his walk. That is, supposing a man to be four hours on the outward jour- 
 ney, which is not alwaj's the case. It is a ganeril rule to finisli the outward 
 Avalk in from three to three-and-a-half hours, which would le^ve from five 
 to six iiour.s for replies at the end of the walks. These hours would allow 
 ample time for replies. None would have less than four hours at the 
 extreme end of the walks, and some would have as much as six, and yet 
 the rural postman's day's work could be completed in 12 hours. We ask 
 for the rural postmen of the United Kingdom the most careful considera- 
 tion of this Commission, as to their long hours of duty. Another phase 
 of the question is that a rural postman does not walk or work eight hours 
 per day. We consider that any man doing 11 miles' walking per day, and 
 tieing absent from head offica for 12 hours, should be considered to have 
 done a full day's work, and that 16 miles should be the limit of a walk 
 for a travelling rural postman. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What is the limit now? Is there any limit? 
 
 A. There appears to be no limit. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Can you give u,s some of these extensive walks ? 
 
 A. I have 42 liere. 
 
 Q. Over 17 miles? 
 
 A. Yes : 17. 18. 19. and 20. Tliere is one at Skipton which is 17. and 
 another 20 miles per day. One at Slough 18, and a second 20, each of these 
 representing a walk. One at Grimsby of 18 miles. 
 
 The Chairman : Are thess cases where the postmen have to go on their 
 feet? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Have they no cart? 
 
 A. They have no cart ; they are not even mounted. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Are you sure of that? 
 
 A. I know of it in one or two cases. I had the information from the 
 men themselves. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : One of the regulations is that Postmasters in rural dis- 
 tricts shall be asked to report any cases in which they have reason to be- 
 lieve the walk of rural postmen in rural districts exceeds a distance of 18 
 miles a day, or involves actual walking for over 6 hours. It is laid down 
 that these should be the maximum limits in any office, and where the 
 roads are heavy and the districts difficult ones to traverse, these limits 
 should not l)e reached. That is the rule of the Dei)artment.
 
 Wages-^Disparity between Town and Eural. 401 
 
 A. I was not aware of that rule. However, I can give you a few 20-mile 
 walks that might be looked into. I will hand in my list. 
 
 F.XAMPLES oi- Long AValks. 
 
 Town. 
 
 9. 
 10. 
 
 n. 
 
 12. 
 
 1:5. 
 
 U. 
 
 15. 
 
 It!. 
 
 17. 
 
 18. 
 
 19. 
 
 20 
 
 21. 
 
 22. 
 
 23'. 
 
 24. 
 
 25. 
 
 26. 
 
 27. 
 
 28. 
 
 29. 
 
 30. 
 
 31. 
 
 32. 
 
 33. 
 
 34. 
 
 35. 
 
 3(). 
 
 37. 
 
 38. 
 
 3!). 
 
 40. 
 
 41. 
 
 42. 
 
 Skipton, 
 
 Slough, - 
 
 Grimsby, 
 
 Qufenstown, - 
 
 Carlisle, - 
 
 Derby, - 
 
 Hamilton, 
 
 Rugby, - 
 
 Tetbruy, 
 
 Tiverton, 
 
 Priston, Lancasiiire, 
 
 Llanelly, 
 
 Tippeiary, 
 
 L'Uth, - 
 
 Ludlow, Salop, 
 
 Colchester, 
 
 L'lverston, 
 
 Luton, - 
 
 Cambridge, 
 
 Wot thing, 
 
 HcnIey-on-Thame ■, 
 
 Trowbridge, - 
 
 Halifax, 
 
 Howden, E. Yorks. , 
 
 East Grinbtead, 
 
 Bicester. 
 
 Guernsey, 
 
 Aphton-under-Ljn ^ 
 
 Windsor, 
 
 Darlington, 
 
 Newbury' 
 
 Ki Harney, 
 
 Fortadovn, 
 
 Oban, 
 
 Comrie, - 
 
 Isle of Wight, 
 
 Lockerbie, 
 
 Dundee, - - - 
 
 Liberton, Midlothian, 
 
 Currie, - - - 
 
 Warwick, 
 
 Berkeley, 
 
 Distance. 
 Miles per day. 
 
 IS & 18^ 
 
 10 .<^ 20 
 20 
 
 17 & 20 
 
 IS & 20 
 
 18 
 
 17 
 
 17 &- 18 
 
 18 
 
 20 
 
 18 
 
 17 & 18 
 
 17 & 18 
 
 17, 17|, 
 
 19 
 
 18 
 
 17, 18, 
 
 18, 19, 
 IS & 20 
 18&20 
 
 18, 19 & 20 
 17&20 
 18, 20 
 18 
 
 17, 18 & 19 
 
 18, 20 
 
 17 & 18 
 
 18 & 19 
 
 17 & 18, 19 & 20 
 17, 18 & 20 
 
 17 & 18 
 
 18 &20 
 20 
 
 18 
 
 18 
 
 17 
 
 19 
 
 17 & 18 
 
 17 & 18 
 
 17 & 18 & 19 
 
 17 & 18^ 
 
 17, 18 & 20 
 
 191 
 
 18 
 
 18 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You have no particulars about these walks, have you ? 
 For instance, you cannot give me the Colchester walk, can you? I happen 
 to have seen the Colchester office, and know that many of the rural postmen 
 there are mounted. 
 
 A. I took these from a list of cases supplied to me as being walks on 
 which the men were not mounted. I find in one or t^^'o instances that 
 the men are mounted for a short distance ; they are walking rural postmen
 
 402 GeoIige GrREGOEY, of Portadown. 
 
 with 20-raile walks, llaat is according to the information that has couic 
 into my liand. I can get you more particulars if you wish. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think the Colchester men nnist be mounted part of the 
 way. 
 
 A. We distinctly asked them at Colchester whetlier they were mounted 
 or not, but they have not given us the information. 
 
 Q. Then tliey have not said they are unmounted? 
 
 A. They have not said they are unmounle:!. I will try and supply papers 
 on this point after tlie adjournment for luncheon. You will see at Dar- 
 lington there is a walk of 20 miles. 
 
 A'Ir. Walpole: If there is any particular case you want me to look into, 
 jx-rhaps you will try and identify the walks. That will help us very 
 much. There are a great many rural walks in each town. 
 
 A. The jjapers I took this information from are at my hotel, and I will 
 bring them here ; they will show the name of the man, the length of his 
 service, his pay, and other particulars. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I only want to remedy any grievance you can point out. 
 You are aware of that? 
 
 A. Thank you, sir. I will bring the papers with' me this afternoon, 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Thank you. 
 
 Witness : Now we liave dealt with the dreparity of pay and the hours 
 of duty, and I propose next to take into account the social question, 
 and I wish to draw the attention of the Commillee to tlie social 
 disabilities under which rui'al postmen lahour. Take the rural postman as 
 a social l^eing in relation to his duty ; 14 hours represent the time a day's 
 work is spread over for a, large number of rural postmen. Of course, tliis 
 is only a medium case. He leaves home shortly after 5 o'clock in the 
 morning, and does not return till after 8 at night. When he gets refresh- 
 ments it IS about 9 o'clock. It is then too late for any social enio\^nent, 
 or to attend classes for his improvement ; besides, he has only about 8 hours 
 to rest before he commences the same weary round again, and this goes 
 on from week to week, 13 days out of 14 (speaking generally), from one 
 year's end to the other, the only relief from it being his short annual leave. 
 To a young man it is very timtilising to see others enjoying themselves, 
 while he is debarred, owing to the nature of his duties, from the same en- 
 joyment, and no certain hope of change. Such a change, if it does come, 
 will be by happy chance rather than any right he may have to claim it, 
 and even others, with less service, pass him in the race and obtain the 
 coveted change. Again, take a rural m^n with a family, and perhaps sick- 
 ness m it; he leaves home about 5 o'clock a.m., and does not return till 
 8 or 9 at night. What changes may have tiiken place there in that time, 
 as 16 or 17 hours make great changes, particularly in diseases to whicli 
 children ai-e liable? He is inactive for 7 or 8 hours of this time, and natu- 
 rally turns over the ciuestion in his mind wliy he should be kept out so 
 long, but can find no reasonable answer. Owing to the nature of his duties 
 he is debarred from: — (1) Self-improvement; (2) social enjo^Tiient ; and 
 (3) home comforts ; and (4) performing social obligations. These things go 
 on year after year without hope of redress. We have already recommended 
 that the covering time over v/hich the rural postmen's daily work is spread 
 should be contracted, and in the majority of cases we see no bona iide 
 difficulty in accomplishing this. But in those exceptional cases where it 
 vrould be foimd impossible to compress tlie day's duties within tlie 12 hours, 
 we recommend that the niral postmen on those bul duties sliould have first 
 claim on vacancies of other duties whs're the day's work was compressed 
 within narrower limits. At present telegraph messengers are preferred for 
 town duties to rural postmen, and we are of opinion this should not be 
 the case. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Now, in your own experience when you were a rural post* 
 num, you stiirLsd on the return walk at 5,50? 
 
 A. Yes, sir.
 
 Wages —Disparity between Town and Rural. 403 
 
 Q. What do you think the public would have said if the Department 
 had directed you to start at 3 o'clock instead of 5.50, in order that you 
 might get home at 5.30? 
 
 A. My impression is that they would liave met the case without a 
 murmur. (Lauglite'r.) 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then the public around Portadown are much more amen- 
 able than the public ha most places, for we have liad murmurs when we 
 have altered a post by only 5 or 10 minutes. 
 
 Witness : Was that a rural jjost ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : No ; a town post. 
 
 Witness : Tiiat is a diiferent tiling altogether. A place where you have 
 business men requiring to send letters up to the last moment, and possibly 
 not knowing what they are going to do till the last moment, is very differ- 
 ent from a country district. My experience with town work has been 
 that business men up to the last do not know exactly what they are going 
 to do ; they have to wait to get the closing prices of the market ; but in 
 country districts it is different. The}^ get their letters in the morning ; 
 they can soon decide what they are gomg to do, and in almost every case 
 tlieu- letters are ready hours before the postman is allowed to start home. 
 I may say that on one occasion during the ^^inter, some of the people on 
 my walk thought it was a pity I should be kept out so late, so they ap- 
 proached the Postm.aster and asked if the arrangement could not be altered. 
 One argument they argued was that tliere was no mail going out for three 
 hours after I came back to Portadown, whereas there was a mail going out 
 half-an-hour before I an-ived. That was the Scotch mail, and it was sug- 
 gested that it could be arranged to catch that, but the reply was that it 
 could not be done. 
 
 The Chairman : Would it be convenient to you to have returned at 6 
 or 7 o'clock when you were working in the linen factory? 
 
 A. I would have been glad to have dropped that in order to get an 
 opportunity of improving myself. I should have considered it a boon. 
 The same complaint is made by others. If I had lieen allowed to return 
 by 7 o'clock the Department would not have bean inconvenienced, and the 
 rui%l postmen would have reaped the benefit. 
 
 Q. Do you suggest that a rural postman's duty is harder than a town 
 postman's duty? 
 
 A. The duties are in many ways harder. Tliey are liarder in this way : 
 they have a longer stretch to walk, they are exposed to the weather at 
 least 3 or 4 hours at a time, and, suppose it is raining, they have no shelter 
 for themselves, v.diereas, in a town or city like London, nuich of the men's 
 work is done under cover. Again, if tliere is snow on the ground, they find 
 the walking very heavy. Tliev feel they are subjected to imjust treatment, 
 and consider it very hard. They have to tramp with a heavy load of 
 parcels, and deliver them in the dark. In my own case, for three months 
 m the year at least, the greater portion of my delivery was over before it 
 was daylight at all. I consider that, in that respect, too, our duties are 
 much harder. I now come to the next point, which deals with the want of 
 accommodation at the end of our walks. Many rural postmen liave to wait 
 more or less time at the end of their walks before they make the return 
 journey tO' the head office. When rural postmen arrive at the end of their 
 walks, of course they are free to go where they like, but, in nine cases out 
 of ten, where can they go? Their scanty wages will not allow to pay for 
 accommodation at the outward end of his walk, and provide for a home a.t 
 the starting point. To return home is out of the question, in fact, impos- 
 sible. Where a walk terminates in a rural district it is principally farmers' 
 houses that are in the vicinity, and they ■v\'ill not allow a stranger to be 
 always hanging about the place. It may be tolerated for a while, but, 
 as the rural postman is not an occasional visitor, but a daily one from one 
 year's end to another, they soon tire of him, or bear with him as a ne- 
 cessary evil which, must be put up with. When this state of affairs arriveSj
 
 404 George Gregory, of Portadown. 
 
 these people are not long in making the rural postman feel that he is 
 tolerated in a place for charity's sake ; his better nature revolts against it, 
 and his manhood will not allow him to accept a charity grudgingly given, 
 no matter what the conse(iuences may be to his health. Take a man arriv- 
 mg at the end of his walk after travelling eight or nine miles on a wet 
 morning, probably wet to the skin, and oljliged to go about under the 
 hedges or any other shelter he can find, getting more wet j>erhaps, and remain- 
 ing in that state from five to ten hours, according to the time for starting 
 on the return journey. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Have you known any case of that kind ? 
 A. Yes ; I have known cases of having nowhere to go to. 
 Q. Having nowhere to go to? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have known such cases. It might have been my own case if 
 I had not possessed the knowledge I did of the linen work ; it was only that 
 which enabled me to stand it. 
 
 The Cliairman : Could you make any arrangements at the end of your 
 walk by which you could change your clothes? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; I hadn't any clothes down there. 
 Q. Didn't you keep a ciiange down there? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; but when I made arrangements to work at the lineu 
 business I used to take clothes down. If, however, I had not been able 
 to pay for a jjlace to stop in, I should have had nowhere to go to. 
 Q. Then you took a room there yourself? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. Trip allowances are made to men employed in the 
 travelling P.O., and rightly so, when they are away from home for their 
 meals. Provision is also made by the Department in many cases where 
 men are prevented by the nature of their duties from gettmg home for their 
 meals. If this is done for one class of postal employees who are on a 
 higher scale of pay, we are of opinion that the rural postman is equally 
 Wurthy of consideration. He leaves home very early in the morning, and 
 does not return till late in the evening. Yet no provision is made for 
 this man by the Department ; the only thing it does for him is to pay him 
 from two to seven shilling.s per week less than postmen on town delivery, who 
 can get home to their meals. The health, of these men and their ability to 
 perform their duties with freedom from preventible illness, caused by ex- 
 posure to the weather, wet clothes, with uncomfortable and irregular meals, 
 should be carefully looked after, from a financial point of view, by the 
 Department. 
 
 Q. Have you any estimate showing the amount of sickness among rural 
 postmen ? 
 
 A. I liave not a return sliowing the difference, but this I do know, that 
 rural postmen are oftener off on sick leave than town postmen, and that 
 this is one of the causes. Through their constant wettings they get stiffness 
 in their joints after years of exposure such as this. Tliese things contri- 
 bute to the rural postman's difficulties. 
 
 The Chairman : You do not know anything about the average death rate 
 amongst rural pcJstmen, do you? 
 
 A. I do not, my lord. The only evidence I have as to that was the 
 testimony of Dr. Wilson, who did not draw any distinction between town 
 and lural postmen. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do the Department supply waterproof capes to the 
 rural postmen? 
 
 A. Well, they call them waterproof capes. (Laughter.) They are called 
 waterproof cape-s, but when you are out in a shower the inside of the cape 
 is equally as bad as the outside. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you referring to tie new capes issued last year? 
 A. No ; we have never seen any of those at Portadown. 
 Q. They are given you every second year, are they not? 
 A. No ; every third year.
 
 Wages — Disparity between Town and Rural. 405 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, we have issued a new pattern cape, which I 
 hope will prove more satis factoiy. 
 
 A. I am very glad to hear that. I found it very difficult to carry my 
 Ijarcels safely with the old caps, for if the inside got wet and rubbed against 
 any cardboard boxes, the latter would break open and the contents would 
 be lost. 
 
 Q. Well, we are trying some new ones, and I hope you will get one 
 some day. 
 
 A. I do not want one so much now. At the same time, I should be glad 
 to know, on behalf of my rural comrades, that they are to be put in a 
 better position in this respect than I was. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : We are trying two patterns. 
 
 A. I am very glad to hear it. There is another class of men who are 
 mere dangerously situated still. These are the men whose walks ter- 
 mir'ate in villages, or where there are public-houses in the vicinity ; the 
 temptation is to go there and spend the time at theu* disposal. They will 
 be sheltered from the weatlier, but the landlord of the public-house will 
 not give much countenance to a man hanging about his place M'ho is not 
 leaving him some money, and. meeting with acquaintances, the man natu- 
 rally falls into the trap, and hal)its of intemperance are formed which 
 would never have been contracted had the Department done its duty by 
 these men. The recommendations which find most favour with the men 
 are as follows: — (1) An allowance of 2s. 6d. per week to provide a room 
 and fuel to cook his food and dry his clothes, etc. ; or (2) an alternative 
 payment at the rate of Id. per hour for every hour they ai'e obliged to wait 
 at the end of their walks. 
 
 Mr. Smith: Can they always get a room? I thought your point was 
 they could not? 
 
 A. No, they cannot always ; and therefore I suggest there should be some 
 compensation for not being able to get a room. 
 
 Q. It would not be so useful for him as a room, would it? 
 
 A. It would not. 
 
 The Chairman : Which of the two recommendations do you suggest? 
 
 A. I think that where a room can be got the allowance of 2s. 6d. a week 
 would be best. That is my own opinion, my lord. Those in favour of the 
 first proposition argue that if an apartment is taken the postmen will have 
 just as much to pay for it if he only occupies it two liours daily as if he 
 occujiies it continually. Those in favour of the second proposition argue 
 that those who have the longest to wait get a corresponding allowance. 
 There is still a large body of rural postmen, probably 800 to 1,000 scattered 
 over the country, who, when they get to the end of their walk, can find 
 no suitable place wherein to sto]>. There are cases where they would have 
 one, two, or more miles to walk before they could get a suitable place. 
 In .such cases a rest or hut ,should he erected at or near the end of such 
 walks, of such dimensions as would enable, them to have a small stove 
 for heating and cooking purposes, and keep a change of clothing and other 
 necessaries for his comfort and convenience. In cases where the rests are 
 provided, the allowance asked for rent and fuel would be changed to 
 allowance for fuel, which would amount in these cases to Is. 6d. per week. 
 Another point before leaving this very important sMbject. If these moderate 
 recommendations should be sanctioned, the men receiving them should give 
 guarantee and proof that the sums granted for these purposes were ex- 
 pended for their comfort, health, and convenience, and not for their own 
 personal gain or other purposes. We recommend for the benefit of the 
 Service that something of this kind should be done by the Department. 
 We are only asking as a body what is reasonable for the conditions of 
 service Ave are called on to perform, and we do not countenance for a 
 moment any individual diverting to his private use what is intended for 
 his health, comfort, and convenience. I now come to the case of the aux- 
 iliary rural postmen. I heard Mr. M'Laren's statement, and I thoroughly
 
 406 GEOuaE Gregory, of Portadown. 
 
 concur with all he said, but still I think there are one or two points in 
 wliich the case of rural men has not been brought out so well as it might 
 be. These are a class of men that are to be commiserated. They are to all 
 intents and purposes servants of the State, but oh ! what a mockery, when 
 their pay and position are examined. They do a few hours' work in the 
 day, and are obliged to be on at the ."same hour every day, speaking gene- 
 rally, for which they receive a miserable pittance — it can not be called pay. 
 They are saddled with all the resjionsibilities of postmen, and they receive 
 about 4d. per hour, and some even less. In many cases their walks are 
 laid out, and arranged with such regard to time that, from the start to the 
 finish, it is almost a race to accomplish it m the time allowed. The lot of 
 auxiliary rural postmen attached to sub-offices is not a happy one. The 
 Deimrtment sets such a bad example of sweating to the sub-postmasters 
 and sub-postmistresses that they prove very intelligent pupils, and are very 
 (|uick to ajjply the knowledge so gained to their own jjecuniary advantage, 
 For example, should the S.P.M. be a farmer, the auxiliary, or auxiliaries, 
 as the case may be, have to or are expected to do a lot of menial work 
 usually performed by a maid of all work, such as can-ying water, preparing 
 food for cattle, and, in some cases, milking. Again, should the S.P.M. 
 be a gi'ocer or a general dealer, as a great many of the rural S.P.M. are, 
 the auxiliaries are looked upon as sort of light porters attached to the 
 establishment, and they have to convey the parcels of the S.P.M's. cus- 
 tomers, and put up with all the whims of both the S.P.M. and his cus- 
 tomers. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are these auxiliaries men who deliver letters under an 
 allowance to the sub-postmaster? 
 
 A. Yes ; in some cases. 
 
 Q. We make an allowance to the sub-postmasters for the delivery? 
 
 .4. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And he gets the letters delivered by his servant, or by one of his 
 family, or does it himself? 
 
 A. Yes ; but some of these men I am refei^ring to only get 3s. 6d. I 
 am informed that 3s. 6d. is allowed to sub-jiostmasters, and that nothing 
 above 3s. 6d. comes under the term of "auxiliaries, or unestablished post- 
 men." 
 
 The Chairman : In these cases do not the sub-postmasters pay the men 
 anything in excess of the allowance? 
 
 A. No ; I have no knowledge of any case where that is done. I have 
 mquired of a lot of men all over tlie coimtry, and they tell me they do a 
 lot of this extra work in order that they may be allowed to do the work 
 in connection with the Post Office If any objecinn is made bv these 
 men to this state of affairs, they are told by the sub-P.M. that if they do 
 not like the conditions they can leave ; and if a man is independent enough 
 to refuse to do the work, tlie sub-P.M. contrives to have him removed 
 shortly after such an unpardonable action as refusing to do their menial 
 work. 
 
 The Chairman : But if the postman makes an official complaint it must 
 be forwarded? 
 
 A. Ah ! but the sub-postmaster generally talks the rural postman out 
 of the idea of forwarding the report. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: It is the Irish sub-postmasters that do that. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. I suppose it is the Irish sub-postmasters I am talking about just now, 
 but I am sorry to sav there are as many bad cases in England and Scot- 
 land as in Ireland. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What I ventured to suggest was that the English Post- 
 master had not the same capacity for talking as the Irish. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. Well, some gentlemen in England have quite an eqtial capacity. I 
 need not go any further than to mention Mr. Gladstone, who is master of 
 them all. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I do not like to hear anything said 
 ag&inst Irishmen in that respect if it is intended for a slight, but I suppose
 
 Wages — Disparity between Town and Rural. 407 
 
 I may lake it as a compliment when you suggest that they are able to talk 
 the auxiliaries out of the idea of forwarding the reports? 
 Mr. Walpole : Certainly. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness: If complaints are made the sub-P.M. thinks he has no right 
 to forward such, and generallj^ gives a plausible excuse for the complaint 
 made, and shows the com})lainant that if he follovv's tlie course indicated 
 m the report lie will land himself in a worse plight than lie thinks he is in 
 now. By means similar to this, reports never come to light, while a 
 glaring injustice is done to the auxiliary class, and glossed over l)y the 
 sub-P.M's. to their own advantage. Most of these men have gone to the 
 sub-oflices as boys, and have continued on from year to year, in the ho])Q 
 of one day being recognised and put on the established service ; thus they 
 have drifted on from year to year, losing heart and hope, and doing their 
 work in a half-hearted manner, believing, in their own minds, if not usmg 
 the language audibly, that the Department knows nothing, and cares less 
 about them, if it can only manage to get the few hours' work it wants done 
 every day out of them at the svi-eating rate it pays them. The De2>art- 
 ment allows these men a timic and trousers once a yeax, together 
 with a cap, and an overcoat once in two years. These are very good ar- 
 rangements as far as they go, but they are not supplied regularly, sometimes 
 not at all. What has been said about misfits supplied to appointed men 
 applies with almost double force to the auxiliaries, as they only receive 
 once a year part of a suit, and often when misfits come and have to be 
 sent back they are never heard of ag:>in. (Laughter.) If application is 
 made to the sub-P.M's. they Avill hardly think it worth their while to 
 forward such application on belialf of this down-trodden class of public 
 servants, thus in one way or another he is done out of some of the benefits 
 he is allowed by tlie Department. All the hope and pi-ide which those men 
 should take in the Service is taken out of them by the two sweaters under 
 which he serves, i.e., first the Department, which pays them from 3d. to 
 4d, per hour for doing very responsible work, and, after having performed 
 that part of it, the sub-P.M's. finish what the Department commenced in 
 the way already described. I would here put in a few examples of rural 
 imestablished and auxiliary duties: — Dudley — Hours of attendance, 6.30 
 a.m. to 10 a.m., and 3.30 p.m. to 5 p.m.; wages, 17s. Exeter — Hours of 
 attendance, 6.45 a.m. to 10.40 a.m., and 5.30 p.m. to 7.25 p.m. ; wages, 
 18s. ; length of service, 25 years. Campden (Glos.)-7-Hours of duty, 7.45 
 a.m. to 11.40 a.m., and 3.30 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. ; wages, 14s. ; length of 
 service, 20 years. Campden (Glos.) — Hours of duty, 7.14 a.m. to 10 a.m., 
 3.30 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. ; wages, 9s. ; length of service, 5 years. Rillinsdrisk 
 (Co. Cork) — Hours of duty, 9.35 a.m. to 1.40 p.m., and 3.15 p.m. to 4.25 
 p.m. ; wages, 17s. 6d. ; length of service, 35 years. Taunton — Hours of 
 duty, 5.30 a.m. to 9.20 a.m., and 3 and 4 p.m., also collection 8 p.m. to 
 9 p.m. ; wages, 14s. Barnard Castle — Hours of duty, 8.40 a.m. to 12.15 
 p.m., and 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. ; wages, 15s. . King's Langley, R.S.O. (Herts.) — 
 Hours of duty, 7 a.m. to 9.50 a.m., and 3.35 to 6.40 p.m. ; wages, 16s. 
 Preston (Lane.) — Hours, 5.30 a.m. to 9.15 a.m., and 3.30 p.m., 6.15 p.m. ; 
 wages, 17s. Limavady — Hours, 7.40 a.m. to 11.10 a.m. ; wages, 7s. ; length 
 of service, 20 years. Portadown — Hours, 6.40 to 9.35 a.m , and 4.50 to 
 7.10 p.m. ; wages, lis. ; length of service, 10 years. Dundrum— Hours, 
 7.55 a.m. to 9.50, and 11.45 a.m. to 12.25 p.m., and 3.30 p.m. to 4.25 p.m., 
 and 7.45 to 9.45 p.m. ; wages, 13s. ; length of service, 9 years. 
 
 Note. — In some of the foregoing cases the intervtil of duty is really of 
 no use to the men concerned, as it occurs at the outward end of their jour- 
 ney, and, even in the case of those who are able to return home, their day's 
 work is so broken' up that it is out of the question to expect other employ- 
 ment. 
 
 The Chairman : Are these auxiliaries employed to do the snne walks as 
 the established men? 
 
 A. They do similar walks and similar work ; they may not be doing
 
 408 George Gbegohy, of Portadown. 
 
 exactly the same walk as tlie ostaljlished man, but they are doing similar 
 walks wliich rei^uire as much time. 
 
 Q. In the first two of the.se cases they have higlier wages, have they not? 
 
 A. Yes ; but that does not occur in many cases. The unestiiblished 
 men get their liours occupied ; the_y have no leisure hours and very short 
 pay. Tlie instances I liave cited are tiiken at random from the pajiers I 
 have received. In some cases they have to make two or three attendances, 
 and in some there are even four attendances spread over the wliole day, 
 some of them extending to 16 hours ; yet tliey are not established, they 
 cannot get either holidays, jwnsions, or stripes ; they have to stand still, 
 for they can rise no higher. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are these town postmen you are referring to ? 
 
 Witness : No ; rural. 
 
 Q. But surely no rural postman does five attendances a day? 
 
 A. Well, there are several with three attendances — two in the countrj' 
 and a station delivery. It is complained that, though they are called aux- 
 iliary rural postmen, and are clothed as such, they ought to come under the 
 head of town postmen, as they do part of town postmen's duties. 
 
 The Chairman : The list you have put in shows mostly two attendances ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but some of them show three attendances. These hours in a 
 good many cases represent the time when the men arrive at the end of their 
 walk, and not the time when they retiam. The note attached to the list 
 I have put in shows that these men, although they receive very small pay, 
 and unestablished, yet from the nature of the duties they perform, it i« 
 utterly impossible for them to obtain otlier employment. I am referring, 
 of course, to the broken nature of their duties. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you wish this put in ? 
 
 A. Yes, decidedly ; 1 have put in cases of long walks, giving examples 
 of the hours which men have to do. 
 
 The Chairman : In none of those cases did you say how many hours the 
 men are employed? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the table only shows the distance for each walk. 
 
 Q. What men are they? 
 
 A. Established men. 
 
 Q. Established rural postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. This refers to the first part of your ca^e? 
 
 A. Yes ; I should have handed you the list when I was dealing with that 
 part of my case. 
 
 RECOMMENDATIONS. 
 
 (1) What is asked for on behalf of these men is that they be paid 6d. per 
 hour for every hour they are on duty, and, should they be required to 
 come on duty a second tmie with one hour or less between them, that it 
 be reckoned continuous duty. 
 
 (2) That they be paid for Sunday duty the same as the established force. 
 
 (3) That there is no obstacle in the way of amalgamating four -fifths of 
 the rural auxiliary postmen's work, and thereby absorbing them into the 
 established force as vacancies occur. 
 
 (4) While they are auxiliaries they should have one complete suit of 
 imiform every year, and cape, overcoat, and leggings at the same time 
 as established men. 
 
 (5) Tliat they should bs made free from the control of the sub-P.M's. 
 after their duty is done to the Department. 
 
 (6) That they be allowed one week's holiday in the year, with half sick 
 pay and the boot money allowed to the established men. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But, Mr. Gregory, a postman who is an auxiliary postman, 
 would not be at the disposal of the suli-postmaster, as you call him. after 
 his duty was performed, would he?
 
 "Wages — Disparity between Town and Rural. 409 
 
 A. He has to be more or less. 
 
 Q. Are you not confusing two men, the auxiliary man and the man em- 
 ployed by a sub-postmaster under an allowance? 
 
 A. I aan including both cases. When a sul)-postmaster employs a man 
 under an allowance, he expects him to do certain work. 
 
 Q. You say there is no difference between the case of the auxiliary proper 
 who is the servant of the Department and the man who is paid under an 
 allowance, and who is the servant of the sub-postmaster? 
 
 A. Yes ; you will find in the country districts that the sub-i>ostmaster 
 influences the postmen imder him to do certain work, and without a rule 
 to the effect that that is not allowed, the general impression will continue 
 that a man must do it — that he is expected to do it. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You mean to say that if an auxiliary who is a servant of the 
 Department works alongside an auxiliary who is a servant of the sub- 
 postmaster, there is no diff'ei'ence, and the sub-postmaster makes the ser- 
 vant of the Department work for him? 
 
 A. Well, you can hardly say he makes 'him work for him, but he makes 
 him feel that he ought to give assistance to the other. 
 
 Q. And they consider that for their protection there should be some 
 ruling on the point? 
 
 A. Yes ; there should be a definite ruling that when the work is done to 
 the satisfaction of the Department the man should be entirely free, and 
 the sub-postmaster should have no control over him. I may be allowed 
 to say I think that if the Postmaster-General did issue an order to that 
 effect the money voted for the purpose of paying these men would have a 
 tendency to find its way into the hands of those who do the work. 
 
 j\Ir. Walpole: You mean that the Department should interfere? As a 
 matter of fact, if we do hear of cases where men ai'e unjustly employed, 
 we take notice of it. 
 
 A. I think there should be a general order that no advantage should be 
 tiiken of the men by curtailing thcii* pay or ordering them to do certain 
 work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you anything further to ask ? 
 
 A. Nothing, except that ai new rule be made to the effect that when the 
 work is done to the satisfaction of the Department the man should l)e 
 free. It he does other v,ork it should be of his own free will. There 
 should be no pressure put u|X)n him. It is difficult to define how sub-post- 
 masters can manage to get certain things done which really should not be 
 done. It is a well-known fact that these tlimgs are done. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you mean that they are done without extra pay ? 
 
 A. Yes ; done without extra pay. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That sort of thing is difficult to guard against by rules. 
 
 A. Yes ; but if there is a rule the postmen could understand — they 
 would know they could not be punished for refusing to do this extra work. 
 The last part of my statement deals with a point which does not require 
 much argument. It is a small change we ask for, which will not require 
 a Treasury minute or anything of that sort. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : By all means let us hear that part. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness : I will. As I say. it does not require a Treasury minute, but 
 I may tell the Committee that m the provinces we find great complaint and 
 a strong undercurrent of feeling on this matter. That is why I have put 
 it in at the close of my statement. It is the question of the payment of 
 wages and holiday money. In the provinces it is found very inconvenient 
 to the men tliat they are not paid until Saturday night in a great many 
 cases. This is peculiarly so with rural men who do not return to the head 
 office until after 8 o'clock at night. They have to return home, and when 
 their money gets into the market they have to buy what has been rejected 
 by earlier customers, and thereby get an inferior quality of goods for their 
 money. Saturday_ is the usual day in the rural districts (and small towns 
 may be included in this case) for buying the following week's provisions ;
 
 410 George Gregory, of rortadown. 
 
 this practice of paying wages on Saturday night is therefore very incon- 
 venient for the men, and, besides, it is a depreciation of value in money 
 s^jent of from 5 to 10 per cent., as lie gets an inferior article for his money 
 at the close of tlie market than he would earlier in the day. 
 
 Mr. Walpojo : Your first point is that you want to be paid on Friday, 
 is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And in the first week you are paid on Friday would you be content 
 to receive only six days' pay instead of seven? (Murmurs of dissent in the 
 room.) TJiiit would be fair, would it not? 
 
 A. In our office we appointed a deputation to wait on the Postmaster, 
 and he asked if we would be Avilling to leave a day's pay in his hands 
 provided the men were paid on Friday. I pointed out that in my case I 
 was paid in the middle of the day on Saturday, so that I had no complaint 
 to make. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I have made arrangements in one case for paying the men 
 on Fritlay, a day's p;iy to be kept in hand. 
 
 A. Here is the difhculty. In other towns they are paid on Friday. At 
 one time at Portadown we were paid on Fridaj's. In a great many other 
 towns the wages are paid on that day. In the case of sub-ofrices the money 
 is sent to the Postmasters on Friday nights, and paid to tiie men on Satur- 
 day mornings. Our o\ni men at Portudown head office are not paid now 
 till Saturday, but at Belfast, Dcrry, and other places tliey are paid on 
 Friday. That is the case in a great many other towns in Ireland. But 
 in the district to which I belong they are not paid till Saturday, and the 
 particular complaint of the rural postmen is that they are not pi id till 
 Saturday night Lite. I think the rural postmen should be paid on Friday 
 night. The town postmen do not complain, as they are paid on Saturday 
 afternoons or in the middle of the day, but the rural postman is very 
 generally away at that time. The next point on which emphasis is placed 
 by both town and rural postmen is that when they get their holidays they 
 believe they should get their pir advanced if it is to do them any good. 
 Their pay is not large enough to put by a sum for holiday expenses, and 
 when they only get their usual week's pay they find it difficult to go to 
 any place that will be a change of air. If their fortnight's holiday pay 
 were advanced to them it would be a boon to them, more particularly in 
 the case of men who are married and have families. The postmen look upon 
 ho'iday pay being due to them when th' y are entitled to the holidays, 
 as they liave to serve one year l>efore they receive any holiday at all. Our 
 recommendations are: — (1) That all postmen be paid on Friday in each 
 week ; (2) that all postmen who get annual leave be paid their holiday 
 pay in advance. 
 
 This finished the witness's evidence. 
 
 RURAL AUXILIARIES' CASE FOR SOUTH COUNTY DUBLIN. 
 
 (Handed in by Witness.) 
 
 We res|>ectfully beg leave to submit for your kind consideration a state- 
 ment with reference to the many grievances under which we labour. With 
 regard to our duties, we bsg to inform you that they are heavy and labor- 
 ious, and in many cases equa,! to that jjerformed by established men, some 
 of us doing as much as 7 hours and 30 minutes per day. On each delivery 
 we take out the parcels, and have to carry them a long distance before dis- 
 posing of them — in some ca.ses over 5 or 6 miles — and on the return journey 
 take back a hea\y collection of parcels, sealed bags, and letters. We have 
 also to attend three and four times a day at the office. Our duties are so 
 arranged that our dav's work extends over 14 and 15 hours per day. We
 
 Wages — Disparity between /rowii and^Rural. 411 
 
 have to work on Sunday, in some cases for over 5 hours, without any extra 
 pay for it. We walk on an average 142 miles per day.' We have in some 
 cases, after walking a distance, to wait for three or four hours before 
 making the return journey home, and without any allowance for shelter 
 while waiting to do so, but are forced to depend on the charity of some 
 neighbour to protect us from the inclemency of the weather, and often 
 compelled to wear our wet clothes for four and five hours without a change. 
 
 For this laborious work we are paid at the rate of 3d. and 35<1. per 
 hour. .Such, we consider, a must uifair reuiuneration for sucli work. 
 We ask to be paid at the minimuai rate of established postmen, 
 and in no case less than sixpence per hour. We also ask to Ije paid for 
 Sunday work, and be allowed oil' every alternate Simday, the' same as the 
 established men. We also ask to be admitted to the privileges enjoyed 
 by the established men, such as annual leave, boot allowance, sick pay, 
 medical attendance, and paJ^nent for Ba^ak Holidays. We also wish to 
 point out that in consequence of the way our duties are aiTanged that our 
 off-duty time is simply worthless to us. Moreover, it is difficult for us 
 to employ whatever time we ma}' have between eur duties. Many com- 
 plaints have been made against us comi>eting in the labour market against 
 the unemployed, on account of us being in receipt of Government pay. 
 Public meetings have been held to protest against us, and threats used to 
 bring the matter before Parliament. 
 
 We also wish to call your attention to the fact that in some offices there 
 is ample emplo^Tuent for auxiliaries to be put on full time. There are cases 
 where the Parcel Post is held over from 9.15 a.m., the time it arrives, 
 untU it is taken for delivery by the established men on the midday duty, 
 thereby causing a delay of five and six hours, also the holding over of the 
 English mail for hours in order to avoid putting a few auxiliaries on full 
 time, as by so doing they (auxiliaries) would have a claim to be placed 
 on the established class. We also wish to put before you the long service 
 some of us have to put in liefore getting on the esfciblished class — in some 
 cases 7, 8, and 11 years. This we regard as a great hardship. We ask 
 that all auxiliaries of five years" service be called U() for examination to 
 f(Ualify for tlie established class, nnd slionkl tliey be successful tli;it they 
 be placed thereon, and that tlieir prnliatitinary term be six months instead 
 of, as at present, two years, which latter term we consider unfair after 
 serving a term of five years. We also beg to cail your attention to the fact 
 that there are in eight sub-offices in South County Dublin 39 estahlished 
 postmen and 38 auxiliaries. Many of the latter are employed for 6 hours 
 30 min., and in some cases for 7 hours 45 min. per day. The post;xl 
 authorities, in order to avoid retui-ning these (auxiliaries) men for a full 
 day's work of 8 hours, have adopted a device which, to say the least of it, 
 is far from being just. They compel the auxiliaries to sign two receipts — 
 one for their standing pay, and another for 2s. or 3s. which is termed over- 
 time, notwithstanding that they are doing this overtime every day for the 
 whole year. 
 
 We also desire to call attention to an mcident which has very recently 
 taken place in one of the sub-offices in this district. We sent out forms 
 for the men to enter the particulars of their day's work for the information 
 of the Committee of Inquiry. One of tlie men handed the form he received 
 to the local Postmaster, with a request to be allowed to take his time from 
 the attendance-book. The Postmaster sent the form on to the surveyor for 
 his information. The surveyor had the duties of the auxiliaries revised, 
 and took off some and transferred them to the established men. He then 
 sent out the form with permission for the men to take the revised time 
 from the attendance-book. But by chance the men received a second form 
 which they had filled up and duly returned before the revision took place. 
 
 We will mention one more mcident of injusti(;e before finishing this state- 
 ment. It is the case of an established man in Kingstown Post Office, who 
 applied for the usual- allowance due to inside men or men debarred from
 
 412 Gkorge'^Guegorv, of Portadown. 
 
 participating in the Christmas gratuities given by the public, and was re- 
 fused it. Tills man -n-orks 8 liours 25 min. per day, and on duty every 
 Sunday. He att«nd.s on station (hity and on the Kingstown and Holy- 
 head Packet. He lili;ewise does one delivery of letters, etc., etc., every 
 day. Just a week or so before Christmas he was taken off tlie deliver}', so 
 that he is deprived of his Christnia.s boxes, which the Postmaster-General 
 estimated, when he was fixing the maximum pay of the established class, 
 as equivalent to 5s. per week p:^r man. 
 
 We sincerely hope these matters will receive the generous consideration 
 of the Committee, for which we beg tn say they will earn the lasting grati- 
 tude of a miserably paid body of men in the Postal Service. 
 
 [Since Maher's case was brought under the notice of the Committee of 
 Inquirj'^ he has been granted an allowance of 2s. per week in lieu of Christ- 
 mas boxes, wliicli the Department deprived hun of l)y taking him off his 
 regular walk during the Christmas-time. He is now about applying to have 
 the amount increased to 5s. per week, the estimated value by the P.M.G., 
 and to have it made retrospective, in order to cover his losses since De- 
 cember, 1892, when he was first deindved of them.]
 
 FREDERICK B. BAKER, Gloucest€r. 
 
 Mounted Rurals — Hours of Duty — Lons Walks. 
 
 Westminster, Thursday, Feb. 27, 1896. 
 
 Mr. Frederick B. Baker, of Gloucester, was next called to the table. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : You are a postman from Gloucester ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. What is your service? 
 
 A. I entered the P.O. about November or December, 1884. 
 
 Q. What as? 
 
 A. Rural auxiliary. 
 
 Q. When did you become a postman? Or are you still a rural auxiliary? 
 
 A. I was aljout a month auxiliary, then I was placed on other duties. 
 On the 16th May in the following year I was appointed rural postman. It 
 was in 1884 that I entered the Service. Ih the following year I was estab- 
 lished and put on a rural walk, on which I continued until Feb. 24, 1895, 
 when I was transferred to the town class. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us how loHg your hours were during that time? In 
 1884 as a rural auxiliary what were vour hours? 
 
 A. I have no recollection of th;it ^inie. I think I only had one morning 
 delivery, and I probably finished about 9 or 10 o'clock. 
 
 Q. Do you know how many lu)urs you worked on that walk? 
 
 A. It was probably from 3^ to 4 hours. 
 
 Q. What were you jwid at that time? 
 
 A. I l)elieve I was receiving 10s. 6d. a week. I am only speaking from 
 memory. 
 
 Q. Then in 1885 you became a full-timer? 
 
 A. In 1884. In 1884 I was placed on a rural walk and received full 
 pay. At that time it was 16s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : On a scale rising to 22s., or what? 
 
 A. That WHS introduced later on. 
 
 The Chairman : What are you receiving now ? 
 
 A. My wages are 21s., and two stripes. 
 
 Q. You do not include the stri[)es iu the 21s. ? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Q. You supplement the evidence of the last witness, don't you? 
 
 A. I wish to deal more jmrticularly with the mounted men and their 
 duties, but I should like to ask your indulgence if I to some extent touch 
 upon subjects dwelt upon at more length Ijy the previous witness, as I may 
 explain that it has been difficult to prevent our evidence overlapping alto- 
 gether, but as far as possible we have avoided this. 
 
 Q. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Gregory. Do you approve of it? 
 Do you agree with it? 
 
 A. Yes, I agree with it ; but as I go on my evidence will l>ring out otlier 
 points. There has been some indecision as to the number of witnesses, 
 and at the last moment we had to cut out part of my statement altogether.
 
 414 FiiElJERiCK B. Baivbk, Gloucester. 
 
 The Chairman : I do not want to stop you. Which subject are you going 
 to speak on first? 
 
 A. The work of the rural postman. I think tliut in the evidence of the 
 last witness some misunderstamling arose as beMveen t .e sub-office men and 
 the auxiliary men. I was a rural auxiliary before I was appointed to a rural 
 walk, and these men, I believe, are suffering from some inju.stice as to 
 their duty. There is a case in point I wish to bring forward. 
 
 The Chairman : You are speaking of sub-ofrice men ? 
 
 A. I am not certain whether he is a sub-office man. I believe he is a 
 rural auxiliary laetween Askern and Campsill. He is described as an 
 auxiliary postman, sir. The ni'.n's duty, according to the table, is 6 hours 
 25 minutes, for which he has Ijeen in receipt of 10s. a week. It only came 
 under our notice last week by a letter sent to me saying that the wages 
 have been increased 4s.. and the officer receives back money. That takes 
 the case out of our hands. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then you have notliing more to say about that case? 
 
 A. Xo, sir ; but I think the fdcfc of his getting a jump of 4s. a week 
 at once shows that he has been dealt with very hardly previously. (Hear, 
 'hear. ) 
 
 The Chairman : Do you think he would be more satisfied if the increase 
 had been limited to 2s.? (Laughter.) He has got back money too? ' 
 
 A. Only for one month. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: The increase may have been due to an alteration of duty? 
 
 A. I believe not. 
 
 Q. Was his a full appointment? 
 
 A. He ought to have been a fully appointed man. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: I will look into the case if you wish to put it in. You 
 must state it or not. 
 
 The Chairman : In a case where a man does 6^ hours you think he should 
 have a full api)ointment? Is that it? 
 
 A. Yes ; here is a list of the duties. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: And according to the list his time was 6 hours 25 
 minutes? 
 
 'I'he Chairman : That is the time sr.atod, and he gets 14s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Smitli : I« he paid by the sub ptistmaster or by the Department? 
 
 A. I do not know. 
 
 Witness (continuing) : Bearing m mind the possilde ojiposition to 
 our demands on the ground of their not being acceptable to the public, 
 we fully appreciate the hazard of rousing the ill-will of the public in this 
 matter, which any attempt to withdraw any of the facilities they — the 
 suburban and rural residents — at present enjoy, might be expected to do. 
 But we hopefully look to this, the first opportunity probably they have 
 ever had of obtaining an adequate knowledge of the conditions of our 
 service, to quicken tlieii- readiness in accepting an abbreviation of these 
 facilities, and we confidently rely on those who have ever sympathised with 
 us, that they will not offer serious opposition to our desires. I am em- 
 boldened to take this view by the absence of any opposition to the town 
 sub-office half-holiday early closing, and to the discontinuing of the last 
 delivery in some towns on the half-holiday evening. I refer particularly 
 to tlie facility given for so long an interval to elapse between the in- 
 coming of the morning post and the despatch of the evening post, pro- 
 longed on an average to some six hours, but often prolonged to eight hours, 
 which it can l)e readily conceived is much too long, and which would be 
 willingly allowed to be shortened. But I feel more sure that the opposition 
 would be more likely to come from the Department than from the public, 
 for in some cases the public has taken the initiative in suggesting improve- 
 ments in this respect, but the difficulty has been assumed to be too great 
 for anything to be done. As an instance, I may mention that the vicar 
 of the parish at the extremity of my journey, viewmg with alarm the risk 
 attending a journey on the Cotswolds durii*g the winter, when the blinding
 
 Mounted Rurala — Hours of Duty — Long Walks. 415 
 
 snowstorms render it extremely perilous, opened up a correspondence with 
 my Postmaster, and suggested that my return journey, or that part of it 
 that lay on the hills, should take place in daylight through the winter 
 months. The conditions under which the Department could see their way 
 clear to allow this hmnane concession was that the gentleman should imder- 
 take to get the consent of the different villages on my route to the proposed 
 change, a condition sufEcient to deter him from prosecuting his kind inten- 
 tion. Had this lieen a suggestion for a somewhat earlier deliver_y, or for 
 the inclusion of some place in the delivery, I believe more earnest efforts 
 would have been made j."i act upon it, and I feel convinced that these diffi- 
 culties which arise in the event of a suggested change for the bettering of 
 a man's duty are easily overcome if the alteration is suggested from some 
 influential resident jjleading on behalf of the public, suggesting it may be 
 some facility to catch a certain mail or to get his letters at an earlier hour. 
 Yet, if it be a Sunda,y delivery to be taken away or an alteration, as was 
 suggested in my case, a canvass must be taken and a large majority ob- 
 tained before it can be recommended. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : A Sunday delivery to be taken away? 
 
 A. Yes, sii" ; in some rural districts. 
 
 Q. That was not the suggestion of the clergyman? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It was another suggestion? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it was only an alteration of time suggested in my case. 
 It is very hard to discriminat« in these cases as to whether the alterations 
 are only for the benefit of a favoured one or two individuals. The Depart- 
 ment have no wish to have am^ complaints whatever from the public. I 
 may point out that in the case of rural postmen they ai'e forbidden to get 
 anyone to intercede on their behalf. That is prohibited in the Rule Book. 
 Therefore the feeling obtains among the men that their interests are deemed 
 to be only secondary. I shall not attempt to dwell upon the manner in 
 which these extended duties affect the men, but will point out that from 
 the lateness of their return home, and, particularly in the case of a. mounted 
 man, after which some time has to be devoted to the comfort of his horse, 
 rural men are debarred from entering into social relations with their fellow- 
 townsmen, or, in the case of the younger men availing themselves of the 
 facilities offered, either by evening classes, elementary and technical, now 
 so abundantly offered, for improving themselves and enabling them to fit 
 themselves for other duties. Also that in the winter months these late 
 duties are bound to trespass on the men's time on the Sabbath to some 
 extent, when some little matter regarding his horse, his cart, or liai^ness, 
 has to be attended to that may demand da.ylight, or for which there is no 
 time in the evening, and this irrespective of the necessary gi-oommg and 
 feeding. We would recommend that, where it can possibly be done, these 
 duties should be confined within a 12 hours' day. 
 
 WAGES. 
 
 We would earnestly direct your attention to the disparity between the 
 wage of the rural and that of the town postman located at the same office, 
 and we would sulunit that there is no reason that can })s adduced in its 
 justification, where men doing work equally as responsible, and which needs 
 to be done er(ually as intelligently, should be in receipt of wages .so un- 
 equal. It may be pointed out that in some cases the amount of corres- 
 pondence is still verv small, but, on the other hand, there are some deli- 
 veries in the suburbs of our large towns wlicre the amount of correspon- 
 dence dealt with is as great as within the town, independent of their other 
 varied work ; yet these deliveries are still defineil as rural. In suit-offices 
 a great part of the station duty is performed by rural men, and it fre- 
 quently happens that the rural men take a part of the town delivery on their 
 route. We maintain, therefore, that there is no reason for this anomaly,
 
 41 G FuKUEiucK B. Baiceu, Gloiict'ster. 
 
 The duties of a rural postman require even a more general knowledge of 
 postal work than a town man, tliey not Inking confined to tiie delivery and 
 collection of letters. Tiiose duties include tiie accepting and giving receipts 
 for registered letters and j)arceh, for whicli he must bi responsible while 
 tliey are in his charge, and on circular walks these remain for some hours 
 in his possession. He nuist have a knowledge of the charges for these 
 articles to be able to make proper charges for whatever is tendered to him. 
 Further, lie has also to accept and deliver to their destination letters without 
 their having passed tliiough a I'ost Office, and this without being under 
 any su])ervision \\li«itever, a freedom of action net permitted to any other 
 class. In introducing this into the rural distriots I see a greater com{)li- 
 ment to the men's trustworthiness than his ever before been jiaid them. 
 Ho must necessarily have a knowledge of the reguhitions referring U> regis- 
 tration, Parcel I'ost, and postiil and money orders, to enable him to satisfy 
 the many in((uiries that will be made of him during his journeys. Tliis 
 refers more iKuticulariy to those men who are a])])ointed to a district that 
 is largely patronis.'d by summer visitors, and here I would call attention 
 to the efforts made by the railway companit* to jjopularise our picturesque 
 villages, which must influence the influx of summer visitors and em[)liasise 
 the need of an int-eiiigent class of servants. The presfnt wage (mininmm) 
 for appointed men — 15s., 16s., and 17s. per week, and maximum wage of 
 19s., 20s., and 21s. — is inadequate, for we would observe that these men 
 have to reside in town, and their expense of living is as great as, if not 
 more than, that of the town postman ; he has to pay the same rent and 
 taxes, and has the additional expense of living t!:e whole of the day away 
 from home. Our wage will not bear favourable comparison with any ser- 
 vice requiring the intelligence and beariag the same responsiVjility, for we 
 find there are men with 30 years' service, who are only receiving 20s. as 
 wages. The assertion that our wage will compare favourably with that 
 of the agricultural labourer in the district in which we are situated is not 
 an equitable comparison, and we strongly resent comparing us with this 
 most ill-paid of labour, with whom oiu: responsibilities and our oost of 
 living are in no way identiciil. We would ask that all returning to a head 
 office be classed as postmen, and that the present distinction be effaced ; 
 that our mininmm wage be equal to this chiss ; and that on town appoint- 
 ments becoming vacant they be offered to the rural men, according to their 
 seniority. We feel that there would be no difficulty in this ; in fact, in 
 those cases where there are two and three deliveries daily it is unreason- 
 able that they are regarded as of an inferior class to town postmen. For 
 a case in point, I may say that there are 15 rural ^xistmen at Bolton per- 
 forming two deliveries daily. One of these so-ciilled rural walks has three 
 deliveries daily, served by two men on the morning delivery, and the 
 other deliveries being worked alternately by these same men. Another man 
 has two deliveries and a night collection, extending his duty to some 15 
 liours. 
 
 The Chairman : You mean the duties are extended over a period of 15 
 hours, not that they take 15 hours to perform? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; the limit is 15 liours. Some of these men deliver a 
 portion of the borough not half-a-mile from the head office, whereas the 
 tow'n men in other directions deliver 1^ miles from the head office. Yet. 
 in the face of this and of the fact that, within a few miles of Bolton, and 
 as for that any otJK r town, there are sub-offices, strickly speakinir, more rural 
 where the men are apTwinted as townsmen. These men consider themselves 
 entitled to be classed as town men as they return to the head office on the 
 completion of each delivery, and they have petitioned the Postmaster- 
 General against being classed ruiul. but the Department, while allowing 
 them 2s. increase of wages over the rural maximum, refused to acknow- 
 ledge their claim, thus denying them all prospect of promotion, for by 
 offering men junior vacancies on the town staff (which is usually done), 
 it would mean placing men with over a dozen years' service, and in pos-
 
 Mounted Riirals — -Hours of Duty — Long Walks. 417 
 
 sassion of two stripes, as junior postmen. This is a condition they refuse, 
 claiming that they are to all intents and purposes town men. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That cannot take place now. There are no more junior 
 postmen to be appointed, so it cannot be. 
 
 A. You have put a wrong definition on the term. I did not mean junior 
 postmen. I meant juniors in the town postmen's cLiss. 
 
 Q. What is the objection to that? 
 
 A. That their previous service is not taken account of. 
 
 Q. How can tliat be? They carry it with them. 
 
 A. In some respects ; but it does not count for seniority. 
 
 Q. It makes no difference to the men, does it, how they rnk anionjj 
 themselves ? 
 
 A. In their daily intercourse, do you mean? 
 
 Q. They have the same wages and advantages. What difference does it 
 make? 
 
 A. In an office where there are only a small number of men, it means 
 they must serve several more years before they regain senior position. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by senior position — a head ijostman? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. I shall refer to this again. 
 
 The Chairman: You are going to explain it presently? 
 
 A. Yes ; I refer to it again later on. So much more unfavourable are 
 the conditions under which the rural man performs his duty that were the 
 wages made equal no to^vii men would seek rural appointments, for a rural 
 man, after having an arduous journey — it may be through a deep snow 
 which he may have to trudge through for days — is in a st;ite of exhaustion 
 such as i.s unknown to a town man, whose walk is through sw^-pt streets. 
 I would further emphasise this matt.T by asserting tliat this low iiunimum 
 wage, and the strict rules referring to his late attendances and other 
 matters, all tend to keep it down at this minimum, wiiich is not a living 
 wage sufficient to enable the men to withstand temptation. 
 
 ACCOMMODATION FOR DAYS LODGINGS. 
 
 Rural postmen having from one hour upwards to remain at the end of 
 their walk, .should have some provision made for their day's lodging by 
 the Department, on whom should rest the responsibility of this or make 
 an allowance sufficient to meet the expense of t'ds accommodation, inas- 
 much as this affects the efficiency of the men, and the absence of it renders 
 the men susceptible to contract disease and injuriously affec's their longe- 
 vity. A question was asked of the last witness as to the arduous nature 
 of his duties. I should s ly emiihatically that I consider tl.e rural man's 
 duties a great deal more arduous than those of a town man. A town man 
 has no ex])erience of tlie exhaustion t'lat a rural man experiences after 
 eiKlinj- his long walk, moro particularly if that is in a 1 i!lv district. [ 
 have a copy of a report from the Postmaster in regard to my own ex- 
 perience in the snow. It reads: — 
 
 (Copy.) 
 
 Mr. Godby — 
 
 The Brimjjsfield rural postman, who is due to reich this office 
 at 7.15 p.m., did not arrive until 9.5 p.m. to-night. 
 
 Baker states that after proceeding about half-a-mile on his journey he 
 had to return to Brimpsfield with his horse and trap, finding it impossible 
 to proceed in consequence of the state of the weather. He then made a 
 second attempt on foot, and reached liere at the above-stated time in a very 
 exhausted condition. 
 
 Between 30 and 40 letters for the north of England will suffer detention. 
 (Signed) H. C. Dawe, Assistant-Supermtendent. 
 
 George St., 18th Nov., 1893,
 
 418 Frederick B. Baker, Gloucester. 
 
 To the Assistant-Superintendent, — 
 
 I am glad to learn that tlie man arrived safely in Gloucester ; 
 it shows he lias considerable pluck and interest in the Service to face such 
 Weather. 
 
 (Signed) W. H, Godby. 
 20th Nov., 1893. 
 
 The Chairman : After all a walk in the snow is the exception and not 
 the rule? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but on the other hand the walks in hilly districts are 
 laborious enough. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You have not had a j)ersonaI opportunity of comparing the 
 duties of town and rural postmen, have you? You are not a town postman, 
 are you ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am a town postman now. I am speaking from personal ex- 
 perience of the two, and I say I do not now feel the fatigue I did after my 
 rural walks. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You are in a town where ther* are no heavy flights of 
 stairs to be worked? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. There are no staircases on your walk? 
 
 A. No more than the steps outside houses. 
 
 Q. You have not the laborious work which has been described to us by 
 some witnesses? 
 
 A. No, sir ; but arduous duties are not the exception to the rule. 
 
 The Chairman : What I said was that deep snow is an exception to the 
 rule. 
 
 A. I should like to point out that in some services exceptions prevail 
 and are recognised. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What, snow? 
 
 A. No, sir ; exceptions to the rule. In the course of some evidence 
 given previously it was brought forward that the policeman's pension was 
 granted him on account of his exceptional duties. It must be an exception 
 for him to get a brick thro^vn at him. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Quite so. But it is a rather more frequent exception 
 than he cares for. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) 
 
 Witness : Well, I consider there are seasons during which a postman, 
 especially in the rural parts of Scotland, has to trudge thrnuah the unow 
 more often than the number of times a policeman gets a brick thrown at 
 him. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That is no compliment to the Scotch climate. 
 
 The Chairman : I think a Scotch postman has something more than his 
 own legs to get about upon. That is my experience. 
 
 A. I am referring to exceptional cases. In my own case, which I have 
 quoted, I considered that my life was in j^eril. 
 
 The Chairman : The report records sympathy for you. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Were you walking from Gloucester, or was it the return 
 journey ? 
 
 A. From Brimpsfield to Gloucester. I began the journey in a blinding 
 snowstorm and a very low temperature. After going a short distance I 
 was almost incapable of proceeding further, and it was only by an effort 
 that I turned my horse's head roimd. He carried me back in an exhausted 
 condition to the place I started from. 
 
 The Chairman : I exjject you would have done better on your own legs 
 than on a cart? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; I completed the journey on foot. 
 
 Witness (continuing) : We think that when the rural man remains at a 
 village during the day tlie accommodation available (generally that of a 
 labourer's cottage) would not exceed 2s. 6d. per week, though for even this
 
 Mounted Rurals — Hours of Duty — Long Walks. 419 
 
 siiiLill sum to be sulitracted from 'bis low wage is no small consideration, 
 and the picture is presented of men wandering about lanes or fields await- 
 ing their return journey, and this too frequently in the case of men having 
 a family dependent upon them, and with a high town rent. Granting that 
 there are a nu7iiber who manage to paj' a smill sum for the luxury of a 
 cottage to stiiy in during the da}% still this is not a very desirable state of 
 things where there are generally a numerous family, and these in bad weather 
 crowding the home so that the privacy neecled for changing his clothing 
 is not obtainable. Others again have to put up at a blacksmith's or a 
 cobbler's shop, while others are allowed the shelter of the squire's saddle 
 room, or as an alternative to this a man has to drag out his long stay 
 at the village alehouse with all its temptations toward.s intenijierance and 
 evil associations, an alternative which it is most earnestly to be wished it 
 should be the endeavour of the Department to remove from their servants, 
 as a condition of things which may lead their servants to that indulgence 
 which meets witli most severity from their superiors. We would offer 
 the recommendation that some efficient provision should be made to engage 
 a room for the exclusive use of the postman, to ensure its privacy as is done 
 for sub-offices. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : May I ask you what arrangements you made yourself when 
 you were a rural postman ? What did you do ? 
 
 A. My case wa.s not a typical case. 
 
 Q. I only want to know what you did in your own case? 
 
 A. I finished my journey at a village where there were a number of 
 cottages. Many men finish their walks at places where they can never get 
 accommodation. 
 
 Q. Quite so. I am only asking you as to your own case? 
 
 A. I was able to get a room at a cottage where I could put up. 
 
 Q. Did you get any work there? 
 
 A. I preferred to rest. 
 
 Q. Did you pay for the room? 
 
 A. Yes ; I had to pay for it. But in the case of a man with a family 
 dependent upon him, and pnying a high towii rent, he could not afford to 
 pay, and so it is that a great number of the men wander about the fields 
 awaiting the time for their return journey. 
 
 Sir r. Mowatt : Wliat do you mean by "a.s is done for sub-offices?" 
 What is the meaning of that? 
 
 A. I mean by that that in cases where there is a sub-office in a village 
 tliey engage a room for the poskil work. Should that plan not be adojited 
 I would suggest that an allowance be made to the men in lieu thereof, or as 
 an alternative in those cases where accommodation was not obtainable — and 
 we would prohibit the village alehouse — the men should be allowed to return 
 to a village or more populated district nearer home, there to await the 
 hour of their return journey, the collection of the letters from the end of 
 the walk being the subject of a special collection from the S.O. in the 
 village, where the postman remains. Another suggestion is that in tliinly 
 populated districts the erection of shelter boxes should be the subject for 
 consideration, as instance at Moreton Valance. In this case the man 
 erected a hut at his own expense. We feel that hitherto our demand for 
 consideration in this respect has been entirely ignored, whetlier it be that 
 it is proposed to add some two or three miles to a man's walk, or a new 
 district to l>e embraced, and as the area over which the rural postmen travel 
 has been extending in every way, there are few places, however out of the 
 way, to which the facility of free delivery is not given. Yet in this in- 
 crease of area, or it may be increase of the length of time before the de- 
 parture of the postman, owing to later trains becoming serviceable, or it 
 may be a proposition that a man give up his home in the country and 
 reside in the town, or leave town and live in the country — in none of these 
 matters is any consideration given as to how it may affect the man's con- 
 venience, or in one case has it been considered necessary to ask tlie rural
 
 420 FRErFRiCK B. Baker, Gloucester. 
 
 man how much more remuneration he is entitled to for the added distance 
 or time, or in tlie other if lie is entitled to any com^iensation or increment 
 to meet his enhanced exjienses. 
 
 DEFINITION OF RURAL MAN'S DUTY. 
 
 We think it shouldba n:ore clearly defined what constitutes a rural man's 
 appointment, and tliat it sliould ho made clear whether it cin be altered 
 with disregard to the man's comfort or interest. As an instance — one of 
 many — Thomas Ames, for 27 years, till June 20th, 1890, was on the walk 
 to Llangwylley, R.S.O., Angl'esca, but a delivery was effected to Llange- 
 frui, on tlie application of a gentleman having an interest in the place, 
 though not a resident, and he was transferred to Llangefrui, where he is 
 unable to get a cottiige nearer tha.n four miles of his starting place, which 
 distance he must traverse mornmg and night. This necessitates as early 
 rising as 4 o'clock a.m. to he at tlie office in time, and not returning to his 
 family till 8.40 ji.m., and, to use his own word, "Making my life quite 
 miserable." 
 
 The Chairman: Are you cerUiin of that case? Will you give me some 
 reference to it? 
 
 A. Yes ; I will get j^iirticiilars. (vStatement handed in.) We think that 
 a clearer definition of a rural man's daily duty should be laid down, over 
 wliicli he is entitled to overtime, as at present there is apparently no limit 
 to what he can be expected to perform without any overtime being allowed. 
 Men may be several hours delayed through heavy snow or floods, or those 
 men having station duty through late trains or through a heavy delivery 
 of circulars, election or other kinds, or at Christmas, when men have been 
 called upon to perform an extra delivery, meaning a continuous duty of 
 over 14 hours, without receiving any pajTnent for the work, as their 
 average daily duty did not amount to 8 hours for the week. 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You say it is 14 hours' continuous duty ? 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Tiie Chairman: You mean 14 liour.s from home? 
 A. No. my lord ; I mean 14 liours' continuous duty. 
 Mr. Walpole : Not continuous duty? 
 
 Witness : The rural postmen at Gloucester at previous Christmases liave 
 been instructed to hire a trap to return to H.O. after the first delivery, 
 with which they had to take out an afternoon delivery, so that they had 
 scarcely time for a meal between 5.30 a.m. and 7.30 p.m. Tliis was dis- 
 continued last Christmas. We petitioned the Postmaster at Gloucester for 
 overtime, liut we never received it ; instead he pointed out it was done in 
 tlie interests of the men, so that they might have more time for uiemselves 
 on Christmas Day to sjiend with their families. 
 The Chairman: That was onlv one dav? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; the days before Christmas 1892, 1893, and 1894. 
 Q. Did you not have to work on Christmas Day? 
 A. Yes ; We had the usual work on Christmas Day. 
 Q. Did they not give you time to make up for it? 
 
 A. No ; the men had no compensation at all. We think that a man's 
 duty should be the time he is timed to perform that duty, whicli time 
 should be entered in his rule l)Ook, and any other work which exceeds that 
 time above one hour should be paid as overtime. I shall refer presently 
 to how even this does not fully include a man's whole duty if he is 
 mounted. We think it desirable that a man having a journey 
 of more than sixteen miles daily should be mounted ; also, it 
 .sliould b3 made clear how far a man is expected to walk before en- 
 tilling him to an allowance for a horse and cart. On what calculation this 
 is considered, whether the distance travelled, the amount of correspondence, 
 or the population, comparisons with different duties in different districts does 
 not reveal any defined rule, for we find in Gloucestershire and other agricul- 
 tural districts that some men are mounted, travelling 16 miles or so daily,
 
 Mounted Kurals— Hours of Duty — Long Walks. 421 
 
 wliereas in other counties men on foot travel as man as 26 and 30 miles 
 daily ; so this does not suggest any explanation of such inequality of labour. 
 
 ^Ir. Walpole : Can you give me any case where a man travels 26 or 30 
 miles on foot? 
 
 A. I believe there is a case in the Bradford district. I had some doubt 
 about tliis man, and I corresponded with the men there as to the duties. 
 I have got this answer: — "The statements are correct as near as we can 
 reckon. The districts are what you may call thinly populated. J. B. 
 Pitts, Idle, 34 miles. I understand his duties rotate every other week, 
 and I think it was the heaviest duty. But it is all done on foot." 
 
 The Chairman: 34 miles a day? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and they tell me there are other duties of 24 and 26 miles. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Are you sure this man Pitts is not mounted? 
 
 A. So I am informed. 
 
 Q. Do you mean he does 34 miles every day? 
 
 A. Yes ; for a week. 
 
 Q. Every day for a week 34 miles? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Then he must do 11 hours* absolute walking every day? 
 
 A. I shall be able to confirm the statement. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I will look into tJie case. 
 
 The Chairman: Have you his duties? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have them here. 
 
 Mr. Walpole (examining the duties) : This man is on duty 7^ hours, so 
 that if he does a 34-mile walk he must go at the rate of 5 miles an hour. 
 That shows there must ba a mistiike in your figures. Do you really think 
 that a man walks 34 miles and delivers letters in 7^ hours? 
 
 A. I have tried to get tlie accurate facts. 
 
 Q. Oh ! I am not complaining of j'ou. 
 
 A. I will give cases where men have exceptional work. 
 
 The Cliairman (examining the duties) : You have a case here of 32 miles, 
 l)Ut that man is partly mounted. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: I should doubt tlu'.se facts. The witness said distinctly 
 this man Pitts was unmounfcd. 
 
 Witness: I will give the duties of a man at Denbigh. 
 
 The (Jhairman : He is off duty at 7.30 in the evening, and goes on at. 
 7.3U in the morning. 
 
 Mr Walpole : Pitls" duty is a little over 7 hours. Wliat is your ex- 
 perience? Does a man when he is on a walk delivering letters do more 
 than 2j to 2| miles i)er hour? 
 
 A. That depends entirely on the number of liouses on the walk. 
 
 Q. I admit that. But would not the average be 2^ to 3 miles? 
 
 A. I believe that a man is expectetl to walk more than that. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : More than 3 miles an hour? 
 
 Mr. Walpole: More than 3 miles while delivering letters? 
 
 A. Y'^es, sir. In the matter of collections he lias to cover 3 miles an hour ; 
 I have only taken turnpike miles. He has to go up and down gardens. 
 
 The Chaii-man : Then that makes Pitts" walk more than 34 miles? 
 
 Sii- F. Mowatt : The simplest way will be to have this case inquired int?). 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you anybody else who does any walk with these 
 "Spring-heeled Jack" boots? (Laugliter.) Anyone who does such a walk 
 as that? 
 
 A. I should like to point out in confirmation that ]Kipers have been sent 
 to me showing that a rural man at Denbigh walks 23 miles, one at Kendal 
 23 miles, one at Southampton 26 miles, and one at Weston-super-Mare 
 23 miles. 
 
 Mr. Smith : What is that walk ? 
 
 A. I have no particulars. 
 
 The Chairman : Can you give me the number of hours these men are on 
 duty? I think you should give that as well as the distances?
 
 4'22 Fredkrick B. Baker, Glouccstci'. 
 
 A. I can get the number of hours. (Handed in.) I now come to the dis- 
 advantages attending transfers, and wish to ask that the transfer of a 
 rural postman to tlie tow"n class be freed from the disadvantages at present 
 attending it. I am aAvare that this phase of our grievances has been before 
 your lordship with regard to another clas.s, and that it has been pointed 
 out that this prevails in every other service, the army lieing instanced, 
 but I fail to see that the case is a parallel one, or the conditions the same, 
 fur here we have a br-anch of the Service sta^rting as either telegraph boys 
 or auxiliaries, entering tlie P.O. on the same conditions, yet whose future 
 is to be left to mere chance, the capabilities of the men being without any 
 weight, for they obtain a town or rural appointment on its becoming 
 vacant at the time they were eligible. Thus tlie first opportunity or chance 
 overweighs any ability tlie man may possess, for if lie be rural then pro- 
 motion is practically unolitainable. I would not say that if a man be trans- 
 ferred to another office for his own advantage he should retain his seniority, 
 but where a man commences his career in one office (where the date of liis 
 entry is kept) and is afterwards transferred to the town, tliat he should 
 lose all his years of service and become junior again is unjust, whereas 
 in such trivial matters as selecting his holidaj-s, etc., he is allowed to retain 
 his seniority. Surely if it is practicable to retain it in one matter it would 
 be so in the more important one of promotion. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wliat is the disadvantage? 
 
 A. I am endeavouring to explain it. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it a fact that at this moment when a rural letter- 
 carrier becomes a town letter-carrier he loses all his time in the Service? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; he has to take a position at the foot of the town postman's 
 class. 
 
 Sir F. Mo watt : He carries with him the salary he had ])een having? 
 
 A. I believe so ; in my own case I carried my existing wages with me. 
 
 Q. And does his previous service count for pension? 
 
 A. Yes ; but in promotion it coimts for nothing. 
 
 Q. But not as regards promotion? 
 
 A. But the result is that a man wjio might have entered the Service 
 only two or three months before I was transferred miglit be my senior, 
 though I had served 15 years. 
 
 Mr. Smitli : We have heard from other witnesses that j^romotion does 
 not go by seniority. That has been a source of complamt. 
 
 A. I sliould (pialifv that. There should also l)e capacity. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I don't know what ought to be. The comphiint is that 
 seniority is entirely neglected. Do you agree witii that complaint? 
 
 A. I don't see what you wish to elicit. A man loses in the selection of 
 the walks, etc. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And you complain that liy the loss of seniority he loses his 
 chance to get the head postmanship? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But the head postman is selected because he is the best man. He is 
 not necessarily the senior postman? 
 
 A. I am unable to answer that. The head jiostman gets the choice of 
 walks. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : I see ; you mean you lose the opportunity of choosing 
 particular walks in a to^vn when you become town postman? 
 
 A. Yes ; there are other minor disadvantages. It is a lamentable fact 
 that there are men who have served 10 and 15 years with two and three 
 strij^es as guarantees of their trustworthiness, and whose transfer has beei» 
 recommended by their Postmaster (a recommendation only too tardily given) 
 and been obtained, who are now junior to youths just making tiieir start in 
 life, and witli a comrade who mayhap had entered the office with him away 
 above him, with better prospects while he remains in the office and has 
 only his pension to hope for. But if this is a regrettable circumstance, how 
 much more so the picture of men performing rural walks, yet feeling them-
 
 Mounted Riirals — Hours of Duty — Long Walks. 423 
 
 selves capable of better elnploJ^nent, with a future of continual toil, or 
 perhaps a pension that spells povertj', but who cannot accept this price of 
 tlieir transfer. Or, again, of men who, feeling that, however they may 
 strive to jaerform their duty conscientiously, the opportunity of transfer 
 will never come to them, see boys and strangers coming and taking positions 
 for which they feel they have first riglit. What wonder, then, if men feel 
 they have grievances? That the clothing is not sufficiently durable will be 
 demonstrated by Mr. Grimmer. I may say the new issue of greatcoats 
 for mounted men, however, meets with some approbation, and fills a long- 
 felt want, the old pattern being quite insufficient to keep a man warm, as 
 also the cape, but which should have armholes (as the pattern for the walk- 
 ing men). 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Armholes left out? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and when he is buttoned right down his arms are underneath. 
 
 Q. Tliat is to give protection to the arms, I suppose, is it not? 
 
 A. I do not know. Wliy it sbould have been left out for the mounted 
 men is inexplioalle, for it is very inconvonieiit to button, and wh n bi.ttoncd 
 both hands must be at liljerty to extricate liimself. which he is not at all 
 times able to do with safety, and retain control of his horse. 
 
 PARCEL POST. 
 
 The introduction of the Parcel Post imposed duties on the rural postman 
 in a mamier we believe that was not premeditated by its introducer, Mr. 
 I'awcett, who, in his most sanguine moments, could hardly have anticipated 
 tlie increase (and I believe it i.s still increasing) of this branch of the Service 
 as a gigantic carrying concern throughout the rural and suburban districts. 
 He surely never dreamed of the picture of a rural man burdened as he is 
 day by day with cuml^ersome weighty parcels, suifermg from fatigue and 
 exhaustion till he more resembles a coolie or a labourer of a like nature 
 than a servant of the most profitaV)le of this country's undertakings. The 
 rule that a rural man should be ex})ected to carry 35 lbs. weight before he 
 is entitled to get assistance miglit not have been so peculiarly irksome had 
 this part of the Department Inisiness kept to any modest dimensions, and 
 this maximum weight lieen but seldom attained b}^ the rural man, but in 
 view of tlie strides the branch has made in the eyes of the public a.s the most 
 direct and economical means for the conveyance of parcels to anywhere 
 outside a town or easy radius of a railway station, and, hs a consequence, the 
 use made of it, and the freijuency with which this maximum is attained, 
 we feel that the time has arrived when it is necessary to reducf this maxi- 
 mum to 28 lbs. I am unable to give any exact estimate for this increase, 
 and I doubt if it would be possible for the Department, unless some accoimt 
 has been previously taken of the parcels received and delivered in these rural 
 and suburban districts separately froaa that of town parcels, but probably 
 I could assert with some degree of exactness that a rural man delivers 
 some 1.200 i^arcels, and collects say 1^000 (23 and 19 weekly) annually on 
 tile average, though, of course, for some localities this is too low an average, 
 a.s, from a return kindly takea for me at an office with 15 rural men, the 
 number of parcels carried outwards l)y these men in one week (at an ordi- 
 nary period) amounted to 453. Thus it will be apparent that the maxinmm 
 is often reached and exceeded. In an office of 16 or 18 rural men assistance 
 is probably given from four to six times per week. Happily there are offices 
 where this as.sistance is generously given, but it is to be regretted that there 
 are instances where this rule is not adhered to, where men are not allowed 
 assistance when their load has been m excess of 35 lbs., but instead of 
 this they have had their letter bill signed "heavily loaded," which exon- 
 erates them if they are late in the completion of their delivery in conse- 
 quence. In other offices the men are expected to take them out in a hand- 
 cart ; this latter of the two ways of procedure is scarcely preferable to 
 carrying them, and in bad weather would imdoubtedly add to the labour.
 
 424 Fkkdkuick B. Bakek, Gloucester. 
 
 Again, in others — I ailmit these are exceptions — whei it liappens that parcels 
 are numerous on tlie evening down delivery, tliey have heen kept, back and 
 handed to the rui-al man whose outward walk is over this town walk, to 
 deliver on his outward journey, and to these men. if they apj)eal against 
 this, the consolation is offered that their weight does not come up to the 
 prescribed 35 lbs. limit. Against these deviation.s of the rules we would 
 protest as not tending to encourage a sj)Lrit of content. To treat a man as 
 a beast of Inirden, and load him up to the utmost limit without any regard 
 for the exliausting nature of this work, whether sweltering in the heat of 
 summer or through tlie bad roads of winter, when, perhaps, he has to go 
 nearly the end of his journey before appreciably reducing his load, or on 
 his return journey, during tlie latter part of it exceeding its prescriljed 
 limit. Then on what are termed circular walks : a man may have to carry 
 the greater part of his load round the whole journey. Tliere is yet another 
 yvny in which the Parcel Post has alfected the men. and which efforts 
 were made to ol)viate at the time it whs introduced. 1 refer to the privi- 
 lege which rural postmen previously enjoyeil of carrying private parcels, 
 and which, in some instances, materially supplemented their income, and 
 fo- the withdrawing of t' is privilege compensation was given. The men 
 were invited to stite their weekly earnings in thi.s way, and, upon these 
 statements a nominal sum officially calculated to meet the case was granted, 
 from 6d. per week upwards, mIucIi alloAvance would l>e discontinued on the 
 appointment becoming vacant and a new man being appointed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But tlie men were asked themselves to state wliat they 
 were receiving, were they not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; but I may point out they were not told the purpose of the 
 infmiry. 
 
 Q. They were asked to state what they were earning, and then we gave 
 them compensation for the amount ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And if they did not state what they were earning that was their fault? 
 
 A. It was not known whether it was intended to punish them for carry- 
 ing the parcels. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you mean that, fearing punishment, they witliheld 
 tlie information? 
 
 A. I think that a number of men witliheld the information, or in some 
 cases said they were not receiving anything in that way. 
 
 Sir A. Godley : And do you complain of that ? 
 
 A. I complain that in these cases where the men's wages were cilculated 
 in that way they were done out of it. 
 
 Q. But a man who has sent in a false return has no cause for complaint? 
 
 A. I do not know that it was false. I have cases in my mind wliere the 
 officials calculated the earnings of certain men and then they did not get it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : ^Vllat did not the men receive compensation for? 
 
 The Chairman : He says the officials calculated that they had received a 
 certain amount. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you say they did not receive compensation? 
 
 A. According to my information certain of them did not. 
 
 Q. If you give me particulars I will look into those cases. 
 
 A. Thank you, sir. This compensation, though felt to be calculated too 
 low, we tliink gave satisfaction where it was carried out. but in some in- 
 stances the men were never allowed this compensation, and suffered from 
 the loss of it, and feel that the Parcel Post has imposed on them. They 
 estimate their weekly loss at some 3s. per week. 
 
 MOUNTED MEN. 
 
 The mcrease of the Parcel Post and its consequent additional burden to 
 the rural men the Depai-tment have endeavoured to cope with by increasing 
 the number of mounted men. for by thus providing the men with a horse and
 
 Mounted Rurals — Hours of Duty — Long Walks. 425 
 
 cart tbey are able to take out on delivery an additional weight, and also 
 embrace a more extended area. This has everything to recommend it, and 
 we Avould further recommend that this course should he followed much more 
 generalh' than even is the case now, so as to include all walks that exceed 
 16 miles per day, for walks which are more than that too severely tax the 
 men's sti-ength. I would make but few exceptions, the chief one probably 
 would be in the case of a locality where this might seriously delay the in- 
 troduction of a separate Parcel Post delivery, which, where the weight 
 warrants it, is the most desirable. The present condition whereby men 
 heavily loaded have to walk 20 and even exceeding 20 miles each day must 
 certainly induce immature old age. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I do not admit the 23 miles a day. If they do walk that 
 distance it is against the express rule of the Department. 
 
 A. I have submitted walks which are over 20 miles a day. 
 
 Q. You have given me one of 34- miles. 1 have cJiecked it. It is im- 
 po.ssible. There is another case of 20 miles within 5^ hours. No walk 
 extends over 5^ hours. You will find that the man is on duty only 6^ 
 Lours. 
 
 A. The man says he goe-; on duty at 7.30, and he walks 21 miles. It is 
 the Weston-super-Mare case. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am not referring to the Weston-super-^Iare case. 
 Witness : The mode of procedure patronised by the Department when 
 introducing this change from the walking to a mounted man I wish to brmg 
 under notice. The official word " provide " in this respect would seem to be 
 a misnomer when it is really the men themselves who have to provide this 
 horse and cart. The rural man receives an intimation that he nuist provide 
 a horse and cart. This to a man who has up till then been in receipt of 
 from 17s. to 20s. per week, or, as came under my notice recently, an aux- 
 iliary who had been receiving lis. per week, who, on applying for an 
 appointment, was offered a mounted man's vacancy, on accejjting which he 
 would be exi)ected to furnish a horse and cart, is an order at which the men 
 are frequently nonplussed at the largeness of, for what reserve fnnds c;in 
 .such a man be expected to have m hand out of his wage, with which he has 
 had to support himself and family, and pay a high town rent, to meet the 
 expenditure of some £'MJ or .£iO? I am aware this is done by contractors 
 i-i some cases, but this is not much favoured by the Department for econo- 
 mical reasons. If a man has been thrifty and unmarried, it means the in- 
 vesting of his hard-earned savings in a hazardous undertaking. Or if other- 
 wise he must have recourse to moneylenders or obtain the things on credit, 
 to even which the Department gives countenance by offering to see that a 
 part of his salary is kept back for the repayment. So we have the servant 
 here disbursing his savings in the furtherance of his employer's business, 
 and paid, too, at such a rate that it is only by constant striving that he 
 can eventually replace his invested funds, a matter of impossibility if he is 
 imfortunate ; he cannot free himself of his debt and the demoralising feeling 
 of being insolvent. For the alleviation of these conditions we would urge 
 that the Department should advance these men who are without funds a 
 sum of money to meet this expense, free of interest; this if they are still 
 of opinion that it is not within their duty to provide the carts as in the 
 case of the hand-carts. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: And suppose a man does not provide the horse and cart? 
 
 A. It is not pointed out to a man what will become of him if he does 
 not accept the change, or whether he will be removed to another walk. 
 But when it is suggested to him it is to his interest to fulfil these sugges- 
 tions if possible. 
 
 Q. It is usuall}^ to his great advantage to be mounted? 
 
 A. Yes ; if he gets sufficient remuneration 
 
 Q. Can you give me a case where a. man has been forced to be mounted 
 agamst his will?
 
 426 Frederick B. Baker, Gloucester. 
 
 A. No ; but I can, on tlie other liand, give cases where men have declined 
 to be mounted. 
 
 Q. Were they removed to other walks? 
 
 A. No, sir ; the proposal to make the walk a mounted one has not Ijeea 
 carried out. 
 
 Sir A. Uodiey : They have done on foot the walk it was intended .should 
 be a mounted one? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Mr. Waipole : They preferred to do the work on foot, and were allowed 
 to do so? 
 
 iSir A. God ley : I suppo.se there are walks which cannot be worked on foot? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And you suggest that if a man is offered a walk of that kind it prac- 
 tically means that he nmst get a hor.se and c;irt? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; unless tiie area of the walk is amended. 
 
 Q. And although there is no compulsion for a man to accept such a 
 walk, if he does it means that he mu-st have a horse and cart? 
 
 A. Yes ; if he had previously been a mounted man lie would accept it. 
 It is only in recent yeai's that this plan lia.s been extensively adopted. 
 
 Mr. Waipole : Since the introduction of the Parcel Post, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. The average amount for these allowances is about 5s. — a, 
 rather high average — for they vary from 6s. to £1 per week, a sum we 
 earnestly represent as being most insufficient renmneration. 
 
 Mr. Waipole : What do vou represent as insufficient — the average of 15s. ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; everj'thing below 18s. 
 
 Q. You represent that the average of 15s. is too low? 
 
 A. I do not wish to speak of the average being too low. Any man re- 
 ceiving 15s. or under would be too low. 
 
 Q. Irrespective of the length of his duty? 
 
 A. Y'es, sir ; irrespective of the length of his duty. I do not take that 
 into consideration. 
 
 Q. Is it not the case there are 6s. allowances given to auxiliary postmen? 
 
 A. I believe so ; but 6s. is an extreme limit. That would be an exception. 
 
 Q. But the 6s. duty would probably be a duty wliere a man had a 
 donkey cart? 
 
 A. No, sir ; that does not necessarily follow at all. Men have received 
 12s. for donkev-cart duties. 
 
 Q. Is that illiberal? 
 
 A. It is fair, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Go on, please. 
 
 Witness : I mean to say that the average even on those shorter walks is 
 not enough. I would not accept it. There is no guarantee that the walk 
 will remain a short one, or that it will not be added to in a year or two. 
 These men have the same liabilities as ot'.iers. It is quite as possible that 
 they may meet with an accident as the men on other mounted walks. The only 
 thing in these cases is the question of the wear and tear of the horse. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But if the walk is increased would not the allowance for 
 the horse be increased? 
 
 A. I believe not, sir. 
 
 Sir A. Godley : Have they no means of insuring their horses against acci- 
 dent? 
 
 A. They can scarcely do that on the allowance made. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : My impression is that whea a walk is increased there is 
 an increase of wages. 
 
 Witness : This difference in the amount allowed varying from the 6s. 
 to the higher one of £1 it is difficult to discover a reason for. unless one is 
 prepared to believe it is from sordid motives of economy practised by the 
 Department towards the class of their servants, a policy of "as cheaply as 
 possible." For we find it is not from the distance travelled by the 'men 
 that the allowance is estimated, for whereas one man probably in one case
 
 Mounted Riii-als — Hours of Duty — Long Walks. 427 
 
 receives £51 per week for an IS-mile daily journey, another iriaii hlay only 
 receive 12s. for a 25-mile journey, and 12s. for a 22-mile journey. That 
 some levelling up of these allowances is urgently needed and dawning upon 
 the Department may perhaps account for some town receiving an increased 
 allowance during the last year. In support of my representation that the 
 allowance is insufficient. I have calculated that in some of these most ill- 
 paid cases the amount allowed Is about l-24th of a penny per mile, less, 
 I believe, than the amount allowed to a cavalry trooper for provender alone, 
 renmneration that will not bear comparison with any other Vehicular hiring of 
 a similar nature ; and this is demonsti'ated in the tenders sent in in reply to 
 inquiries as to what horse hirers would supply a. horse and cart to do relief 
 work during holidays, etc., which in every case exceeded the highest allow- 
 ance, and in some cases doubled them. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In the case of the men sending in tenders, were they not 
 for drivers as well as horses and carts? 
 
 A. No, sir ; merely for the horses and carts. 
 
 Q. No driver? 
 
 A. Xo, sir ; the substitute would do the driving. This fact is interest- 
 ing as showing the disparity l>etween the estimate of the Department and 
 that of practiciil men as to what is adequate, and it calls for some explana- 
 tion of the cutting down of the allowance so far below these public tendei"s. 
 I myself have had to pay precisely the amount I have l>een allowed for hire, 
 viz., 3s. per day, above which I hive had to find the animal's feed, and 
 have had my own pony on my hands on the sick list. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What is your allowance? 
 
 A. 18s. per week. 
 
 Q. And what distance do you cover? 
 
 A. 18 miles. But I have a ca.se of a man receiving 12s. and doing 25 
 miles. This was previous to the privilege of a substitute horse for holidays 
 being introducetl ; since then the men at Gloucester are fortunate m ha\ijig 
 one hirer who provides an aged i)ony for £1 weekly. A man who is on his 
 holiday has to pay the stabling of the substitute at the end of the journey. 
 There are men in our office who, in addition to having to keep their own 
 horses, have to pay the substitute's stabling at the end of the journey, and 
 their allowance is probably only 15s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say that during the short time they are on leave the 
 Department has to pay more highly for horse hire? 
 
 A. Yes ; I mean that the horse hire is far above the amount allowed to 
 the men. I have an instance where a man has to pay 24s. a week, and may 
 probably be getting only 15s. or 16s. 
 
 The Chairman: You think he should get much more? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. This arrangement of providing a substitute for £1 a 
 week is an advantage to the men. even if much, more than their allowance, 
 for it is a much lower tender than anyone will give in. and one whicli the 
 owner declares he is out of pocket by, which can readily be believed when 
 we note that ordinary hire is 9s. or 10s. j>er day for a horse and trap. 
 When we consider the cost of provender of late years — which has been so 
 higli that tliis item in the winter of 'S3 and '94 and spring of '94 absorbed 
 all the allowance, and meant special contracts for the army witliout any in- 
 crease for the rural postman — the cost of keeping in a state of efficiency the 
 harness and cart with its everyday use, farriers' and veterinary expenses, 
 and the cost of st;ibling at both ends of his journey, and the extra time and 
 work to be devoted to the animal's comfort, we feel we are justified in 
 representing these allowances as insufficient. These expenses affect all the 
 men more or less, for as in the case of veterinary expenses it is rare that 
 animals working continually day after day escape all the ills and mishaps 
 to which they are subject, but there are numerous instances where the men 
 are attended by serious ill-luck with their horses, and consequently their 
 vet«rinai'y bill.? run to a serious item. Even trhere these expenses have 
 B^allowecl up their whole savings of years, no matter the cause—illness
 
 428 Frederick B. Bakkr, Gloucester. 
 
 or accident — if your horse fails with the men's punctual attendance, so must 
 liis horse or a substitute attend, no matter at what price it may have to 
 be obtained. Again, farriers' expenses during our late severe winters have 
 otten meant as much as 4s. i)er week for weeks together, for roughing, etc. 
 This is felt severely in a hilly lociility. The stabling accommodation, mean- 
 ing tlie rent of a house with stiible at a high rent, or renting a separate 
 stable in town, and also a stal)le at a farmhouse at the end of his walk, 
 is a serious di"ain on the meagre allowance, and a matter which is attended 
 with inconvenience ai)art from the difficulty of procuring suitable stabling, 
 which is generally granted with a show of obligation. It can e;isily be 
 perceived that the men are not in a position to piy a great deal, so it 
 follows he is frequently expected to oblige by commissions which are re- 
 garded as irregularities by the Department, and if l.e declines these he is 
 termed disobliging, and probably has to seek fresh accommodation. I 
 would observe also that the allowance does not include any recognition 
 of the time the men are occupied in grooming or otherwise attending to 
 tlicir horses and cirts, whether it be at early morning, during the day. or 
 on the completion of his day's duty. This work generally necessitates the 
 man rising at either 4.30 a.m. or at the latest 4.46 a.m. to be on duty at 
 5.30 a.m., and if he can conclude this work in the evening at 8.30 p.m., 
 which I feel sui-e is not often possible, his day's woi'k has spread over the 
 length of 16 hours. Of course, there are men who are in a much worse 
 position, men vrho do not reach their h&ul office till 8.30 p.m. We con,sider 
 that this extra labour and risk should l>e recognised in calculating the allow- 
 ance, and also that a fair estimate of tliis time be taken, and that it should 
 be included in the men's duty, and thus remove the present anomaly of these 
 men being debarred from any cluim for overtime — no matter from what rea- 
 son or to what extent their duty is prolonged — as their average does not 
 amount to 48 hours per week. To include this extra time to the men's 
 credit instead of — -as at present— tlie actual time he is timed to come on 
 duty in the morning, begin and finisli his outward and inward journey. This 
 might be allowed to include ^-hour during tlie day, and 1 hour after his return 
 journey, urin all 2 hours pt-r day. Althouiih this would not rojue > nt the wl ole 
 time spent in the work of grooming, harness cleaning, and trap washing, 
 etc., M'e would favour this low estimate of the time, so that a mounted man 
 should be regarded as performing an 8 hours' day. I would state that, in 
 my opinion, tb.e minimum allowance for the maintenance of a man's horse 
 arid cart should not be less than 19s. per week. Out of this sum I would 
 suggest that Is. be deferred pay as a provision for the contingencies that 
 invariably occur. This deferred sum should be retained in the hands of the 
 Department, and should ]>e allowed to accumulate and form a fund wherewith 
 the men could replace any damage caused by accident to eith.er cart or har- 
 ness, or for the leaving of expenses of veterinary, or the hiring of a substi- 
 tute during the ciisual laying up of their animals. This fund should be 
 available on the men making application with explanation of the need for it. 
 This fund could also l:)e used in the furtherance of my previous suggestion 
 t) the effect that the money requisite to provide a man with a horse and 
 cart should be advanced by the Department to the mea. for this deferred pay 
 could be appropriated in paying off the loan. I think this fund might be 
 retained until the end of every five years, at which time the amount due 
 to each man, less the amount withdrawn in the interval for emergencies, 
 should be paid to him to aid him in tlie purchase of new carts or fresh 
 animals or new harness. This, I feel sure, would act beneficially on the 
 efficiency of this brand', of the Service, by attracting applicants for this 
 work of a more desirable character, and, by enabling the Department to 
 insist on the one pattern and one regulation size. It would make their 
 mounted men a credit to their offices, and do away with the "all sorts and 
 conditions " kind of conveyances that have done duty for this work, and 
 which constitute visible object lessons of the Department's economv. 
 The Coraniittf-e at the close of the witness's evidence adjourned till Monday.
 
 THOMAS GRIMMER, Worcester. 
 
 Rural Case — Wages — Uniforii — Parcel Post. 
 
 Westminster, Monday, March 2nd, 1896. 
 
 Present: — The Right Hon. Lord Tweedmoiith (Chairman), Sir Francis 
 Mowatt, K.C.B., Sir Arthur Godley, K.C.B., Spencer Walpole, Esq.. H. 
 LlewelljTi Smith, Esq., and Roltert Bruce, Esq., Secretary. 
 
 The first witness wa.s Tliomas Grimmer, rural postman, of Worcester, 
 who was examined as follows : — 
 
 The Chairman : What is the lengtli of your service as a rural postman ? 
 
 A. I joined the Department as a rural postman on approbation on the 
 20th November, 1892, and I wa.s appointed on the 25th April, 1893. 
 
 Q. You were formerly in the army? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How many years' service liad vou in the army? 
 
 A. 22. 
 
 Q. And what age were you when you became a postman? 
 
 A. 38. 
 
 Q. What were your wages then? 
 
 A. I started at 16s. per week. 
 
 Q. And what was the lengtli of your walk? 
 
 A. My walk, as laid down by my regulations, is 16^ miles — 11^ miles for 
 delivery and 5 miles of collection — but I have mj^self corrected the distance of 
 my walk ; I believe it is measured by the surveyors' map, but I reckon that 
 the walk is really between 17 and 18 miles jjer day. 
 
 Q. About a mile more than the Department calculate? 
 
 A. Yes ; about a mile-and-a.-half or nearly two miles more than the De- 
 partment allows. 
 
 Q. How is the difference caused? 
 
 A. By walking round farmhouses and going up to cottages which lie 
 off the road. 
 
 Q. How long does it take you to complete that walk? 
 
 A. I am allowed 4 hours all but 5 miimtes to do the 11^ miles of deli- 
 very, and I am allowed 2 hours all but 10 minutes to do the 5 miles of 
 collection. 
 
 A. It is nominally a 6-hours' day? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is it your experience that you are generally able to do it within the 
 time allowed? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am able to do it in the time allowed, liut I am often placed 
 in rather an awkward position ; I go out 5 miles, but cannot return till I 
 ccme back in the evening, otherwise if I came back in the afternoon the 
 distance would be more like 28 miles. 
 
 Q. What time do you start in the morning? 
 
 A. I go out at a. quarter-to-six in the morning, and get back at five 
 minutes to seven m the evenmg? 
 
 Q. What is the end of your walk?
 
 430 .Thomas Gkimmek, Worcester. 
 
 A. It is five miles distant. 
 
 Q. What is the place? 
 
 A. It is a village. 
 
 Q. What is its name? 
 
 A. Crowle. 
 
 Q. What do you do when you get thei-e? Have you a place where you 
 put up during the interval of waiting? 
 
 A. No ; I have no place. I have sometimes walked part of the way 
 back and occasionally have ])icked up a ride, but on other days I have 
 nothing to do during part of the afternoon but to walk about the village ; 
 there is a sub-post office there, but it would, of course, be intruding for 
 mo to attempt to remain in it. 
 
 Q. Then you are tliere for about 8 hours? 
 
 A. Yes, when I stay tliere ; sometimes I walk part of the way back for 
 my mid-day meal, and stand a chance of picking np a ride on the road. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is that vour usual practice, to trv and get a lift back? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you no place to go to? 
 
 A. No, I have no place there ; I live right in the middle of the city of 
 Worcester. 
 
 Q. Have you no friends at Crowle? 
 
 A. I am not a native of the place. I have none. 
 
 Q. I thouglit that being there so much you might have friends with 
 whom you could pass some of the time? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : What is the particular point you wish to submit ? 
 
 A. The wages of rural postmen, uniform, lodgings, etc. I beg leave to 
 appeal to you on behalf of the rural postmen of the United Kingdom for 
 your kind consideration on the following subjects, viz. : wages. Parcel Post, 
 uniform, and lodgings, which we consider to be a great hardship mflicted 
 upon us by the rules of the Department. I do not propose to dwell any 
 longer than it is actually necessary on any one of these jjoints, but simply 
 to lay before you the plain facts. 
 
 WAGES. 
 
 We consider that all rural postmen should l)e paid the wage of a town 
 postman ; we have to <lo the same work as a town postman, our hours are 
 nmch longer, our walks much longer, t!ie roads are much heavier, and it is 
 often the case that our load is much heavier ; we have to be away from our 
 homes all day, and during the winter months it takes one all his time to 
 get through, the roads being so very heavy, and the fields that we have to cross 
 to effect our delivery are almost impassable ; Ave have to live in the same 
 neighbourhood as the town postmen, so we have to pay the same for house 
 rent and provisions, which we find very hard with the high rates and tiixe.s. 
 Our work as rural postmen certainly nuist be coasidered heiivier than a 
 town postman's for several reasons: — 1st, When the town man does not 
 leave the office till 7 o'clock in the moriimg, and as a rule finishes by 9 or a 
 little after, and goes to breakfast at his home, a rural postman leaves the 
 office at 6 o'clock, and finishes about 10 or a little after, having walked about 
 10 or 11 miles, and has to have his breakfast at the village inn or the road- 
 side. What chance has the rural man of having a warm meal? 2nd, A 
 rural postman is also a counter clerk ; that is to say, his duties are similar 
 to those attaching to that office {vide. "Rules for Rural Posfnen," 26, 27, 
 28c, and 56), which makes his position of more importance than a town 
 postman. 
 
 The (yiiairm in : He does that sort of work on his walk? 
 
 A. Ye.s ; for the convenience of tlie public he has to supply postvige stamps 
 and registered letter forms, and he has to collect parcels and weigh them 
 for the public, tilling the senders the amount of postage, and he has to givo
 
 Rural Case — "VVaj^es — Uniform — Parcel Post. 431 
 
 receipts for registered letters. He is supplied! with the necessary materials 
 to do this. During the winter months it is very trying Avith most rural 
 postmen. A number of us have to pay a weekly rent to some person in the 
 village to allow us to stay during the day, and then we have our rough 
 journey home. We do think our case is liard, and trust tliat tlie Committ'ee 
 will give this subject their utmost considei'ation. Although I have not 
 fully taken up the subject of hours of attendance — us that was done by a 
 previous witness — I wanted to say something on that point here, thinking 
 that it would Ijear out our contention with regtird to the wages question. 
 
 Q. Do you propose to deal with your own attendance? 
 
 A. I i^ropose to deal with the hours of attendance of rural postmen 
 generally. Rural postmen, as a rule, commence work at 5.45 a.m., and 
 many of them do not complete their work till 7.30 p.m. This we consider 
 is a very long day for winter and summer, and we do not know of any 
 class of working men whose hours are as long. We admit that he is not 
 working all the time, but then, the Department places him in this position, 
 and, with the distance he has to travel, it is next to impossible for him to 
 return until he commences his inward walk. Tliis is every day (Sunday 
 excepted). We do not know of any toA\Ti whose rural men have the half- 
 holiday during the Aveek, which we consider could be done by working 
 Saturday the same as Sunday. A number of town's men get the half- 
 holiday, but we don't know am' town where the rural postmen get the 
 half-holiday on Saturday. The rural m.en have still to go into the country, 
 and they find that the collection is much smaller on Saturdaj^s than upon 
 any other day of the week, because the country people as a rule come to 
 market, and we think Saturday could easily be worked with the Sundays, 
 The rural postmen might stay only one hour at the end of the delivery, 
 and then return, and thus get half-a-day off the same as the town men. 
 The public would not be piit to much inconvenience by it, and we feel 
 certain they would do all in their power to assist us in getting it. We 
 most earnestly plead for a proper definition of a full daj^'s time for rural 
 postmen. We are of opinion that the percentage of sickness is far greater 
 with rural postmen than vv'ith the town postmen. There has been some 
 question about answers given with regard to the 18 miles per day or 6 hours' 
 walk, but in my case I can challenge anyone to doubt the distance of my 
 walk. I maintain tliat the surveyor's map is not a fair way to test the point 
 at all, unless a good allowance is made for the time going up to cottages and 
 round farmhouses. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There must be many days when you do not go up to all 
 the coftages? 
 
 A. There are certain cottages we go up to some days and others we do 
 not. I think it would only be fair that the postmen should have the advan- 
 tage of such diffei-ence of distiince as that might make. 
 
 Q. I presume there is hardly any day on which you have to go to all 
 the cottages ; there must be some average in the matter ? 
 
 A. As a rule we go to all the cottages three or four times a week. 
 
 Q. I dare say that is so. When a walk is fixed the surveyor's clerk 
 walks the whole distance with you, does he not? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you sure of that? 
 
 A. He goes to the houses for which there happen to be letters on the 
 day of his visit. 
 
 Q. In fact he goes over the walk with you to all tlffese houses for which 
 you have letters? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. He does not simply stop at the gate while you go to the cottages? 
 
 A. No, he does not ; but I have heard from several offices that the sur- 
 veyor's clerk generally tests the walk on a Monday morning, which is not 
 a fau' day to test a rural walk, because in tlie Midhinds we don't get the 
 London mail till mid-clar and it is not delivered in the countrv district till-
 
 432 Thomas Grimmer, AYoT*cGSter. 
 
 Tuesday morning ; we get no London letters to deliver on ^Monday morning, 
 and therefore our delivery is much smaller on that day than on any morn- 
 ing in the week, so it is hardlj' fair for the delivery to be tested on a 
 Monday. 
 
 Q. So far as I see from the diari3S of tlie surveyors' clerks, they are walk- 
 ing every day of the w:ek except Mond ly ; indeed, I think they would nsve; 
 get through their work if tl'ey only tested the walks on a Monday. 
 
 A. That is the case in several offices. I have been in communication with 
 some rural me'i at places close to Worcester, and they tell me tliat they 
 never have their walks test::!d in winter time, but simply in the summer, so 
 that the clerks have a deiiglilfnl walk, and do not have to contend with 
 heavy roads and plo'igiierl Hekls. In fact, they go for the principal object 
 of seeing the country. (Laugh ler.) 
 
 Mr. Smith: Still the dis';inces are the same? 
 
 A. They don't consider the distanc?. They want to see the country, but 
 they don't, for these reasons, take a day in winter, when it would be much 
 heavier walking. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Surely you don't mean to say that the surveyors' clerks are 
 not doing their work in winter? 
 
 A. I don't wish to cast any reflection on them, but I say that the walks 
 are usually tested on a Monday, which, we contend, is not a fair day. We 
 have spoken upon tliLs matter repeatedly. Then again, even if we admitted 
 that it was a fair w'y of testing the round, let it be remembered that the 
 rural postniin has to carry his load. wl!er3as the visiting clerk has nothing 
 to carry on the w-lk. and can therjiorj go much quicker than the postman. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smit''. : Does your remark about the testing on Monday 
 api^ly to your own office only, or is it the result of information collected 
 from various parts of the cov.ntry? 
 
 A. I hive collected the information round about my own district office, 
 where I have been in contact with the men. 
 
 Mr. L. Smitli : I tliink that is a matter to be looked into. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: So far as the Dp rtnieut knows, the pre.sumption would 
 be that, the surveyor's clerk wo") 1 rot tesi wjjhs on a Monday morning. 
 It is his instruction that he should, if poss'ble, lie at headquarters on Mon- 
 day, so that he could not test tl;e walk 0:1 that day, but no doubt there are 
 some cases in Mhirli the clerk stays away from hced'juarters in order to test 
 the walk. 
 
 Witness : With regard to the Parcel P.-e-t, W2 feci sure that no person 
 suffers so mucli as the rural postman nvler this subject. The advantages 
 given to tJie public by the Departm.ent ii-.creses the burden on us as rural 
 postmen largdy. Our contenticn is that we v.-ere intended for letter-carriers, 
 and not for c.'rr'ers of bnrilcr.s s".ch as the Department has contrived to 
 put on us. We are of opinion that tin iia'-cel delivery and collection should 
 be done by moun'ed men in rural disri';t3, and as the Post Office have 
 become public carriers they could then r ise the maximum weight from 11 
 to 28 lbs., and in this way serine tlic rera! districts in a proper manner, 
 and separate parcels not cxcec:lingl jli. from other postal matter for walking 
 rural postmen. Anything heavier should bj handed over to be delivered by 
 mounted men. By raising the maximum of the weight as suggested the 
 Department, in a few ye;rs, would be recompensed for the extra outlay, 
 as the public every year seem to appreciate the care and punctuality with 
 which parcels are delivered l)y Parcel Post, compared with those that are 
 carried by railway companies. These who made the carrying of parcels 
 by a walking rera! postman a pirb of his duty must have never thought 
 of, nor surely never experienced what it was to carry a lot of parcels such 
 as children's chairs, parts of miachinery, hat boxes, dress boxes, and port- 
 manteau.?. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I thinl-: tlrere arc not many, portmanteaus that weigh less 
 than 11 lbs.?
 
 Uural Cfisc! — Wages — Uniform — Parcel Post. 433 
 
 A. I liave had a portmanteau and a small Gladstone bag to take oUt in 
 my short experience. 
 
 Q. Full or empty? 
 
 A. They would not bs full as they were passing through the post. Sudh 
 parcels a rural postman has to can\y 10 or 12 miles on a dark winter morn- 
 ing, and protect them from the weather, and at the same time deliver letters, 
 newspapers, and other postal matter. He starts with a maximum of 35 lbs. ; 
 of this weight he will liave on an average from 150 to 200 letters, news- 
 papeis, circulars, etc., and an average of four parcels. The postal matter 
 will very likely almost hll his pouch, some of the small parcels may fit 
 into it also, but if so, he must take them out to get at his letters W;:en he 
 comes to the place for delivering them. In the last there lias been a great 
 outcry at our soldiers being so buckled up with their equipment and that 
 like, that they were unable to march to any great extent, but, my lord and 
 gentlemen, I should like you to see some of our rural postmen going on 
 their morning walks, pouches full, and parcels strapped all roimd them. 
 The apj>earance of a rural postman when he is in the condition above des- 
 cribed is ludicrous in the highest degree. Besides all this, his pace or rate 
 of walking is impeded, and extra exertions on his part have to be made to 
 keep time. No allowance as to time is made for carrying parcels, as in the 
 majority of cases the time allowed remains the same as when there were 
 no parcels to carry. We consider the weight limit too high. Having been 
 accii.stomed to carry loads before I became a postman, 1 can assure you 
 that 28 lbs. hang heavier on my shoulders when I get to the 6^ miles' 
 limit of my route than heavy loads that I have carried in my army Kireer. 
 It is a regular drag and bearing-down weight over a long distance, espe- 
 cially when you have to walk over heavy roads, and it tends to knock a 
 man up altogether. 
 
 The Chairman : What was the weight of your accoutrements when you 
 were a soldier? 
 
 A. I \v<\ss in the garrison artillery, and, of course, so far as our accoutre- 
 ments were concerned, we seldom had to carry them, bat we had heavy pro- 
 jectile to carry for short distances. 
 
 Q. The ordinary accoutrements of a soldier in full marchmg order would 
 weigl; a good derd more than 28 lbs.? 
 
 A. But he has not the roads to contend with like a rural postman. If 
 you take a regiment route marching, soldiers go on their route twice a 
 week^ but a rtiral postman is at it every day. 
 
 Q. But a rural postman 1ms not always 28 lbs. to carry? 
 
 A. No more has a soldier. 
 
 Q. He has more when in full marching order. 
 
 A, He does not carry that every dav. 
 
 Q. I mean for regular route marchir.g. When i i full ma'ching order a 
 soldier has a good deal more in weight than a postman at the worst of times? 
 
 A. That is only at certain times, but we are loaded every day, as it were. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But you are unloaded as you go along? 
 
 A. Yes ; as a rule we lose a portion of our load as we go along, but I 
 may recall the old saying that when you are in a hurry everything goes 
 contrary, and when a rural postman gets a heavy load he has usually to 
 take it to the end of his journey. It may seem strange to illustrate the point 
 in this way, but such is the case. Where people live far from towns they 
 take advantage of tlie facilities given by the Deimrtment to have nearly 
 everything sent to them through the post, and we therefore find that as a 
 rule the big parcels have to go to the end of our journey or to some bye- 
 lanes. It may appear small at first sight, and if it could always be in 
 compact form, or easy to distribute over the body, it would not be nearly 
 so bad, and might be tolerated under certain circumstances ; for example, 
 if heavy parcels were got rid of early on the walk, or in collecting parcels 
 if the iieavy ones were handed to us when we were near the head office ; 
 but experience shows that two-thirds of the heavy parcels go to, and are
 
 434 Thomas Grimmer, Wofcester. 
 
 received from districts furthest from the head office. It hardly seems pos- 
 sible, but such is the case. It is from experiences such as these that the 
 recommendation i.s made to reduce the weiglit limit to 28 lbs., and the deli- 
 very to be (lone by mounted men. Tlie unwieldy shape of some of the 
 parcels, and tlie iliia'^y nature of others^ prevent tliem being strapped to- 
 gether. The liglit ont's liave to be strapped together and j)ut on one side, 
 and the heavy ones on tlie otiier. Thesi; have to be supported while you 
 get at your j)oucii of tlie letters, etc., for delivery. Perhaps a comer of a 
 heavy box gives you pain on one side, and yet it cfinnot be moved sud- 
 denly lest the box marked " Fragile " on tiie opposite side should be in- 
 jured, the red label of which is turned up to the postman when he received 
 the ixircels, as it i.s the 1 duty of every postman to be careful to a greater 
 degree if possible with parcels having this label affixed to them. I would 
 like to point out here that railway com])anies as a rule see that packets and 
 parcels ;ue securely packed. I should like, my lord, to quote an exijerience 
 of my own on this point. I was bringing a bag from an office on a round, 
 and there was evidently a parcel in it Avhich was fastened with one of those 
 big shawl inns, and this shawl j)in was pressing into my back, although I 
 had to carry it 2 miles. The public, so long as they get tlieir jxircels 
 passed in, don't care, but it is very awkward to carry a load of from 30 to 
 35 lbs. with a pin sticking into you. 
 
 Q. Surely you could alter the position of that parcel with the pin? 
 
 A. No ; I was bringing in a sealed bag, and if I had shaken it up I 
 might have broken somethiiig inside of a fragile nature. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But could you not turn the bag, and so at worst get only 
 the other end of the pin? 
 
 A. Yes ; but then I had suffered the first shock. I only mention this in 
 order to illustrate the aM'kwardness of the position in which we rural 
 postmen are sometimes phiced. I should like to jjoint out that some rural 
 po.stmen have a portion of a town round to do on their outward walk, and 
 in many cases have to carry parcels the whole of their journey. I will 
 give a case in point. A rural postman commences his walk 1 mile from the 
 head office ; he has 13 houses to supply in the city boundary, and also 
 parcels to deliver. During the winter months these people are not up, nor 
 will they get up to receive them, so he has to carry them the whole journey 
 round, and deliver tliem on his return at 6.30 p.m. He reports this to hi-s 
 superior officer when he returns, but is told there is no remedy, that the 
 surveyor has power to allot portions of tow^n to rural walks. These people 
 get a delivery of letters and parcels after the rural man goes in the morn- 
 ing — at 12 and 4 o'clock. That is to say, certain parcels for these people 
 are kept back. 
 
 Q. Where is this particular delivery? 
 
 A. In Worcester. 
 
 Q. Does the rural postman go to these houses at 6 in the morning? 
 
 A. He goes to the Post Office at that hour. 
 
 Q. At what time does he call at those houses? 
 
 A. After leaving the post office at 6 in the morning. The distance is 
 about a mile, so he would get there from a quarter-past-six to half-past-six. 
 
 Q. Are there no letter-boxes to the houses? 
 
 A. There may be ; but I am speaking with reference to parcels. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How often would there be parcels at that hour for these 
 I)eople ? 
 
 A. During Christmas week this rural postman had a parcel for one place 
 which had a postage of lO^d., and another for a second house out of tliese 
 13 houses which had a jiostage stamp of 6d. He rang the bell to call up 
 the servants, but they would not come, so he continued on liis rounds and 
 had to carry these two parcels a distance of 12 miles, unnecessarily as we 
 hold, because they could have been left in the office and sent ix> these 
 people bv tlie 12 o'clock town delivery. 
 
 Q. Did he complain?
 
 Rural Case — Waxes — Uuifonn — Pared Post. 435 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. To the Postmaster? 
 
 A. To the inspector. 
 
 Q. Was any remedy suggested? 
 
 A. He was' told it could not be altered, as the surveyor had full power to 
 add a portion of a town delivery to the rural postman's walk. 
 
 The Ciiairman : Co.ild it not have been arranged to have these jxirciels 
 sent out by t'.ie 12 o'clock town delivery? 
 
 A. We thought so, but Ave were told to continue delivery. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mein that the inspector did not carry the appeal 
 fui ther? 
 
 A. He told the man that he would rejHjrt the circumstance, but the parcels 
 still came in, and the postman wanted them to be left behind for town 
 delivery, but was told, "No; you must take them." 
 
 Q. How long ago was that? 
 
 A. In Christmas week. 
 
 Q. That wa.s an exceptional time? 
 
 A. It was not an exceptiond case ; it has continued since. 
 
 Q. And it has not be2n remedied since? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. How many rural postmen are there starting from Worcester? 
 
 A. There are seven of us from the head office. 
 
 Q. How many of them have any delivery in the town. 
 
 A. Only this one. 
 
 Q. The other six have no town delivery? 
 
 A. No ; I don't think the other six have any town delivery. We think 
 that 35 lbs. is rather a heavy load, bearing in mmd the distance that a 
 rural postman has to walk. We have cases where men are maile to carry 
 more than their 35 lbs., which we desu'e to bring to your notice. The 
 regulation states that he shall not carry more than 35 lbs., and yet the 
 Department use their ^jersuasive powers to get a man to carry a greater 
 weight rather than get him assistance, and cases are known when the load 
 has weighed 76 lbs. They have to call in a small telegraph messenger 
 t& take a portion, saying, " You cannot have two assistants." The officer 
 says it is not worth while bringing on another person for one or two parcels — 
 of course it saves him trouble — and the postman may not like to refuse 
 him. The weight should be made definite and the rule adhered to. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Can you tell us about this case of the 76 lbs. ? 
 
 A. Yes ; it was the case of a rural postman v/ho found that his weight 
 came altogether to 76 lbs. We have not any big boy messengers in the 
 provinces as in London, but two or three parcels were taken out of the 
 bag and given to a little boy messenger, the rural postman takmg the re- 
 mainder, so that the rural postman had still about 45 or 50 lbs. to carry. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : So that the little boy had to carry 30 lbs. ? 
 
 A. I will not say the exact weight he had to carry, but according to the 
 rule there should have been two assistants in such a case. 
 
 Sir r. Mowatt : If there were 76 lbs. to be carried, and the boy had two 
 or three parcels, vou cannot have brought the man's weight down to 50 
 lb?.? 
 
 Witnes.s : I am not speaking on beh:ilf of the little l)oy, but on behalf of 
 the rural postman. 
 
 Q. I was rather putting a question on behalf of the little boy— (laughter) 
 — and it seems to me as if vou had shunted 30 lbs. on to him. 
 The Chairman : It was 35 !h- 
 
 A. It was the Department that did it ; if there was any cruelty it was 
 theirs, but I think I said that the rural postman had from 45 or 50 lbs. 
 left to carry. 
 
 The Chairman : What is the greatest weight you have had to carry an a 
 rural postman?
 
 436 Tiio.Arvs Grimmer, Worcester. 
 
 A. Wlien I was on my uM round I liavc cairiel at night time as much 
 as 56 lbs. 
 Q. Tliat was a collection? 
 A. Yes ; that «a.s a collection. 
 Mr. WaljKjle : How far had you to carry that? 
 
 A. About two-and-a-half miles. I don't say that I was compelled to 
 carry it. It was in this sense — I had to make a collection through the 
 village, and the rule says that when the weight exceeds a cert;un amount 
 a.ssistance may be obtained, but it is often practically impossilile to take 
 advantage of that rule. Assistance may be employed if it can be obtained, 
 but in collecting on-? would rather carry the weight some time than go back 
 to the sub-office for help. 
 
 Q. You burden yourself with this load rather than go back to the sub- 
 office? 
 
 A. Well, one cannot get any assistance in a country lane, or very seldom, 
 and if I ask a man's help the first thing he asks is. " What will you give 
 me for doing it?" The Dejiartment allows 8d.. but one cannot engage a 
 man to carry the load thit distance for 8d., and therefore, being unable to 
 pay the extra money out of liLs own pocket, the rural postman has to carry 
 the weight, excessive though it may be, several miles. 
 Q. The Department allows 8d. ? 
 A. Yes ; in this particular case. 
 
 Mr. Llewellvn Smith : And vou find that not sufficient? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How far is tlie diskince? 
 
 A. About two miles or two miles and a half on the main road from the 
 sub-office. I remember asking a man to help me there, and he said he would 
 if I gave him a "Ijob." but I carried it myself. 
 Q. You could not bring him down to 8d. ? 
 
 A. I could not. It caused a bit of a row. He would not stand it, and 
 if I were a civilian and were asked to-morrow to carry a similar load for 
 several miles I would not do it for 8d. I had to say that was all he could 
 get. He demanded Is., and I was not prepared to pay the extra 4<1. out of 
 my own pocket. Our recommendations are that the limit of weight for 
 rural postmen be 281bs. on starting from their head office. This weight to 
 include letters, poucties. parcels, newspai)ers. circulars, or other postal 
 matter. And we hope that the Commis.«ion will see their way to recommend 
 that the parcel work be done by mounted men in the rural districts. That 
 is with reference to hea^^' parcels, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There must Ije many places where the number of pircels 
 received by post is so small that it would be practically impossible to main- 
 tain mounted men for t'.e delivery. Is that not so? 
 
 A. Of course I can scarcely give you a definite answer to that, because I 
 have not traversed sufficient ground over England : but where I have been 
 and where I liave taken notice of the postal work I don't think it would hs 
 impossible. Of course, the Postal Department is an increasing department ; 
 it is increasing daily. 
 
 Q. And m consequence the mounted men are also, I believe, increasing 
 daily? 
 
 A. I have not seen any. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, we are increasing the force nearly every week. 
 A. I could not say as to that. 
 
 Q. They don't come round your way. Do any of you use bicycles? 
 A. Yes, some of the rural postmen do. but there is a great deal of bother 
 about them : and as the Department don't pay for bicycles the use of t^;em 
 would be wearing out a man's own property for the public service. We 
 had a case of a walk of six miles where a postman ha.s been forbidden to 
 ride a bicycle under any pretence whatsoever. 
 Q. How long ago was that? 
 A. Three months.
 
 Rual Case —Wages — Uniform — Parcel Post. 437 
 
 Q. Do you know the reason? 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The orders of the Department are very strong that per- 
 mission is not to be refused without good reason. 
 
 A. Well, I have not made inquiries into this case. I did not take up 
 this branch of the subject. 
 
 Q. But if the Department made an allowance for bicycles, as it does in 
 certain cases, would that not be a relief? 
 
 A. Yes ; in some cases. 
 
 Q. I suppose you have tolerably good flat roads neur Worce.ster? 
 
 A. On the contrary, I should say we have about the hilliest parts, except 
 in Wales ; there are some nice Jiills our way, where the National Cycle 
 Association have put up boards to say it is dangerous to go down. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : That is generallv done on account of some sharp turn of 
 the hill? 
 
 A. It is owing to the steepness. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You have some Hat land as you go down towards Tewkes- 
 bury, in the valley of the Severn ? 
 
 A. I have never been that way. We hold that the 28 lbs. net weight, 
 if agreed to, or reconnnended by the Commission and adopted by the De- 
 partment, should be adhered to. Turning now to another subject. I should 
 say that great dissatisfaction exists among t! e rural postmen with regard 
 to the inferior quality of uniform supj)lied to them, as well as tlie un- 
 suitable shape of it; the quality and colour ara almost identical with that 
 supplied to the inmates of workhouses in Ireland. 
 
 Q. Do you know yourself what is supplied to the inmates of work- 
 houses in Ireland? 
 
 A. I have received that information. 
 
 Q. From whom ? 
 
 A. From one of tlie witnesses already examined, but the point was left to 
 me as a practical man, for I am a tixilor by profes.sion. 
 
 Q. What is the colour of t! e Morkhouse clotliing in Ireland? 
 
 A. The mformation was supplied to me. Our colour is grey. What 
 interest can a man take in the Service when he is supi)lied with uniform 
 which gives ill-natured people the opportunity of making such remarks as 
 follows: — "There goes tlie poorhouse chap"; "How much does the Poor 
 Law Guardians pay for them clothes " ; or " There will be another penny 
 in the pound on the poor-rates for that new suit " ? In rural districts when 
 phrases such as these get into common use they do not die out as soon as 
 they do in towns. In the matter of rural postm_en each new suit renews 
 remarks such as I have (juoted as far as Ireland is concerned. Apart from 
 the economy, we fail to see any good administrative reason why rural post- 
 men should be clothed different from town postmen. There should be one 
 uniform for all classes of postmen, in shape, colour, and quality. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You are talking about Worcester? 
 
 A. I am giving evidence on behalf of the whole of the rural postmen. 
 
 Q. What is the colour of your uniform? 
 
 A. Dark grey. 
 
 The Chairman : Is that universal in the provinces ? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. And do the town postmen in the provinces also wear grey? 
 
 A. No ; they wear blue, the same as the London postmen. 
 
 Q. And you wish to have blue lather than grey? 
 
 A. I think it would be more suitaljle and more serviceable. We want 
 to have the same as the town postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Is it the grey colour you object to? 
 
 A. Yes ; and its present quality. 
 
 Q. Wliat is the matter with the quality? 
 
 A. It is very inferior. 
 
 Q. Is it inferior to the blue clothing the town postmen wear?
 
 438 Thomas Guimmer, Worcester. 
 
 A. Much. 
 
 Q. Are you talking of the winter or the summer uniform? 
 
 A. I am talking of both ; they are made of the same material. The top- 
 coat, the sunmier coat, winter coiit, and waistcoats are all of the same 
 material ; the trousers for rural men in the winter are of a heavier material, 
 and the trousers in the summer consist of a l)lue serge. 
 
 Q. Would you prefer the town postmen's uniform? 
 
 A. Yes ; much. 
 
 Q. Is that the general opinion? 
 
 A. Yes ; as regards the colour and quality. 
 
 Q. And as regards the serge ; is that Vjetter for you for summer wear? 
 
 A. Yes, if we had it bigger ; at the present time they are too close fitting. 
 
 The Chairman : Is that the case with all the men that the clothing are 
 cut too scrim ply? 
 
 A. I have been informed that that is the case with nearly all the post- 
 men, that the clothes are cut too closely ; I know it is the case witli the 
 rural postmen down our way. It is a sad complaint right through our office 
 a.s regards the fit and style of clothing. 
 
 Q. When your imiform gets wet does it shrink much? 
 
 A. It does much, my lord. The clothes get wet very quickly ; therfe is 
 not a particle of waterproof quality in it ; in fact, the rural postlnan's 
 clothing is nothing but shoddy material. To prove that if you take any new 
 garment for them from the stores and let it be worn for 24 hours by even 
 the most careful man, so that the atmosphere can get into it, and then beat 
 it on a table with a stick, you will find as much dust come out of it as if 
 it had been in wear for six months ; it is nothing Ijut .shoddy, but it is 
 different in the case of the clothing of tlie town postmen. 
 
 Mr. Wal2:)ole : Should we remove this grievance if we gave you the same 
 uniform as the town postmen had? 
 
 A. We would be satisfied with that, provided it were a better fit. 
 
 Mv. Walpole : Of course, the things ought to fit properly. 
 
 Su- F. Mowatt : As to the sorting out of sizes, are the men measured for 
 their clothing, or is it served out in sizes? 
 
 A. Yes ; we are measured and get the clothing afterwards. But in nine 
 cases out of ten the clothes do not fit. Some time last year the agent came 
 to our place and superintended the measurement. We then thought we were 
 going to have a better fit, but we have got rural men in our office now — 
 and I prefer to keep to the case of the rural men, for I know much less 
 aljout the town postmen — who, when they put out their arms, find their 
 sleeves several inches too short. It is a common fault apparently right 
 through the Department with regard to the rural men that their clothing is 
 too tight fitting. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I am. afraid that that is a complaint all through the Ser- 
 vice, that the uniforms are too tiglit fitting. We have had a committee on 
 that subject within the last two years, and recommended that the clotlmig 
 should hi made looser. We have specially dealt with that, and I hope 
 tliey will be more to your satisfaction in the future, but in the case of 
 thousands of uniforms it is rather difficult to make all right. Would you 
 be satisfied with the town postman's uniform, jiroperly fitted ; that is what 
 I wanted to come to? 
 
 A. Yes ; we would be satisfied with the town postmen's uniform if it 
 fitted properly. 
 
 Q. Do you want a. difi'ercnt shaped jacket? 
 
 A. It lias been suggested by one or two that we should have a different 
 shaped jacket, but, speaking for myself. I believe it would l->e satisfactory if 
 we were supplied With a proper fit of the sime jacket as the touTi postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I find that the Department would save money by giving 
 you the same uniform as the town postmen, as the rural postmen's uniform 
 costs more. There is really no desire on tiie part of the Department t(t 
 f?kimp the material.
 
 Rural Case — Wages — Uniform — tarcel Post. 439 
 
 Witness : In theory the rural postmen are supplied with two suits in the 
 year — a summer suit in April and a winter suit in October. These arrange- 
 ments would be suitiilile as to time if they were adhered to all over the 
 United Kingdom, but some towns think themselves fortunate if they receive 
 their uniform within six or eight weeks of the stated time. I have heard of 
 cases where misfits were sent back and no more sujjplied for that issue. 
 These things are very irritating to men who are entitled to and expecting 
 uniform. They lose heart trying to keep up the appearance of good uniform, 
 and the seeds of slovenly habits are sown in the lives of these men, which 
 would not have been there but for the neglect of the Department in not 
 having their contracts fulfilled at the proper time. The material that our 
 summer coats are made with is the same as the winter coat, and the top- 
 coat, instead of being somewhat heavier. The whole of the clothing is too 
 close fitting, and the coats should be lined with some woollen material in- 
 stead of the cotton stuff. The top-coat requires to be lined throughout, and 
 it would be a gi-eater inducement to comfort if they had pockets outside, 
 with a different style of cut. The head-dress is too hot and heavy in summer 
 and not suitable for the winter, for rural postmen who have the open country 
 to contend with. It is rather an awkward shaped hat. We had an advan- 
 tage, if it can be called an advantage, of wearmg a straw hat of our own 
 during the summer weather, but in many of the towns we had to adhere 
 to a uniform pattern, which made it rather awkward for rural postmen. 
 
 Q. When you tiilk about a uniform pattern, was not the rule simply that 
 it should be a clean white straw hat, with a plain black ribbon round it? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. There was no other uniform requirement with regard to the hat? 
 
 A. But a number of the men had already straw hats with different colours. 
 
 Q. Do you think it was unreasonable on the part of the Department to 
 say that if you preferred to wear white straw hats they must lie clean and 
 have plain black ribhtons round them? 
 
 A. I don't think there was any necessity of publishing an order that they 
 must be clean straw hats, as every postman who had any respect for his 
 profession would want to have a clean hat. Even here in London, when 
 I have been up for my summer holiday, I have not seen many people wearing 
 dirty white hats, anil the rule puts a man to the extra expense of getting 
 new ribbons. 
 
 Q. That woidd not be much? 
 • A. It would be 4d., 5d., or 6d., which totals up for a rural postman. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You don't think it would look so well to see a lot of post- 
 men stai-ting off with different coloured ribbons round their straw hats? 
 
 A. If the Department wanted something different, the Department should 
 supply what it wanted. 
 
 Q. It does not supply straw hats, but only says tliat if you wear them 
 you should have a plain black ribbon round them. The wearing of straw 
 hats was conceded to you as a relief in hot weather. 
 
 A. If it was necessary for us to be so relieved the Department should 
 have provided us with the means of relief. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : The Dejiartment does not compel you to wear them 
 ataM? 
 
 A. But we were labouring under a terrible trial in the very hot weather. 
 
 The Chairman : What is the particular fault you find with your uniform 
 caps ? 
 
 A. The hat is too heavy and hot in summer and not suitable in winter. 
 
 Q. Have you any suggestion to make as to what would be more suitable? 
 
 A. I would simply suggest a kind of tweed helmet, and the same thing 
 in winter with ear-laps. 
 
 Sir F. M'owatt: But would you not be afraid of the criticism of the 
 people on the road, who seem to have rather hurt your feelmgs by your 
 remarks ? (Laughter. )
 
 440 Thomas Grimmer, Worcester. 
 
 A. No, sir ; the rural postiinn is exposed to the weatlier more than a 
 town letter-carrier. In the office I come from there are at present two men 
 who have frost-hitten ears, and I have no doriht there are others elsewhere, 
 sc the fact of having e:ir-Iaps or something of that kind would Ikj a certain 
 protection. We have to go into tiie open countrv, and in keen frosts or cold 
 winds we often find tlie weatlier very i)iting. '^he waterproof capes do not 
 keep you dry should you gut caught in a showt'r of rain, and it is not long 
 enough for any man over 6 ft. 4 in., hecnusj tho rain runs off it and soaks 
 in the knees of his trousers, exposing him to the danger of rheumatism 
 and coMs. That is anf)tlier point 1 sliould like Ui dwell upon a little, viz., 
 with reference to the wiUrproof capes. 1 heard remarks in expectation of 
 a new imtt«rn cape, hut 1 have already got one different from what I received 
 two years ago, and I Hnd that it is quite as wanting in the waterproof 
 quality as the old one. I have found in my experience that ordinary calico 
 is waterproof jirovidfd j'ou pluce it in such a position that nothing touches 
 it underneath, hut as soon as anything touches it underneatli the water 
 soaks through : it is t':e sume with tliese waterproof ciipes. If you wear 
 on(! of them for half-an-hour in a sliower of rain you can take it uj) and 
 wring it. 
 
 The Chairman : The new ones ? 
 
 A. Yes ; my new one that I got aljout two months ago is just the same. 
 If you liave a pressure like that of a man's shoulder against it in wefc 
 weather the rain will soak through just as if the material was not waterproof 
 at all. and in the case of a tall man like myself the rain runs down, and 
 just catches me at the knees above the siiort Ijgg'ngs. 
 
 Q. If the cape' were to hang below your knees; it would be very awkward 
 to walk in and mucii heavier to carry. 
 
 A. We make a comi)laint witli regard to the leggings ; we want a sliorter 
 waterjjroof cape and longer leggings — leggings which will keep our legs dry. 
 
 Q. Do you mean like what the policemen in London wear? 
 
 A. I have not noticed what the London policemen wear in wet weather. 
 
 Q. I mean leggings of waterproof like the legs of trousers? 
 
 A. Yes ; coming right up. 
 
 Q. You would not be prepared to wear long capes, would you, to pro- 
 tect your knees? 
 
 A. It would drown some of tlie postmen to have a long cape, as we 
 vary in lieight. 
 
 Q. I don't mean the same length of cape for everybody ; but, siipposing 
 ©ach man had a cape long enougli to protect his kuees, he would find it 
 rather awkward to walk in, would he not? 
 
 A. He might find it awkward with the present style of cape, as it is not 
 waterproof, but he would find it much less awkward if it were waterproof; 
 the capes are very broad round the bottom — they are cut in a circular form, 
 and they would to a certain extent keep the wet from the knees so long as 
 the water running down them did not drip on to the trousers where they 
 gather just above the leggings. For outside wear a light serviceable water- 
 proof coat to cover the knees, and if good material were used it should last 
 for three years. The ordinary overcoat should be made of dark or blue 
 woollen material, single-breasted, and with two pockets in the outside, 
 buttoned close up to the neck, with the tab fasten d with buttons, and 
 should be cut with the allowance for making up on the front, tb.e metal 
 badge of G.P.O. to be worsted. Postmen have to carry a bag, and the 
 strap of that bag passes over the shoulder and gets into contact with the 
 metal badge, which sometimes tears the clothing. The leggings should be 
 made of material to cover the Icnees and be supplied every two years. A 
 ■wide waterproof cape similar to that supplied now, but shorter, for the 
 protection of tlie jmrcels, and sliouj I be supplied to each I'ural postman 
 to be carried in his pouch, so as to be prepared for any sudden changes in 
 the weather. It has been already stated that the present shape of clothing 
 is a cause of dissatisfaction, but when taken in conjunction with the fact-
 
 Rural Case — Wages — Uniform — Parcel Post. 441 
 
 that only about one man in ten gets a satisfactory fit out of each issue, 
 and that many of them are wearing the summer imiform in January, and the 
 winter uniform in July, there is just cause for the irritation that is so 
 general on this head among both town and rural postmen. We reconunend : 
 — That the Department contract for the supply of the cloth materials and 
 trimmings, and the cutting of them according to the uniform p;ittern, and 
 that each head Postmaster he supplied with the numl)er of suits, etc., 
 re({uired for the men under his charge, at least one month before they are 
 due to be worn. That they be made lowilly to fit each man, the Post- 
 master to be responsible for the make according to the uniform pattern be- 
 fore they are paid for. As to the ditt's of issue and wearing summer and 
 winter uniform for rural men, the following seem to be satisfactory if 
 adhered Um — Rural postmen, summer luiiform, April to October; winter 
 uniform, October to April. The rea.son we put that in is tiiat some of the 
 rural postmen's clothing for winter does not reach them until about the 
 time when they ought to be getting their summer clothing, and so rice, 
 rcr.ia. If these matters were looked after closely in this way a great deal 
 of the irritation would l>e allayed, and if looked after in a business-like way 
 little, if any, additional exjiense would be required to carry out these re- 
 forms, and tlie result would be a contented Service, so far as uniform would 
 be concerned. 
 
 The Chairman: You told us, Mr. Grimmer, that you were a tiiilor? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I was a battery-sergeant tailor. 
 
 Q. Do you find yourself able to do a certain amount of tailor's work now? 
 
 A. Not now, my lord. 
 
 Q. Have you dropped it entirely? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Were j'ou a tailor when you were in the Artillery? 
 
 A. On joining the Artillery I conimenci-d it. I was tailor for 15 years, 
 and out of that time I wa.s about 12 years b ittery-sergeant ttiilor. 
 
 Q. You do not attempt to practise it now ? 
 
 A. No, my lord. 
 
 Q. What pension have you now? 
 
 A. I have a sergeant's pension. 
 
 Q. How much do you get? 
 
 A. 2s. 3d. per day. 
 
 Q. Don't you do an_\i^hing except Post Office woik now? 
 
 A. Unless I do anything for myself. I do little jobs for iiiyseH. 
 
 The witness then witlidrew.
 
 THOMAS CARMICHAEL, Heckinondwike. 
 
 Sub-Office Postmex. 
 
 Westminster Moudiy, March 2nd, 1896. 
 
 Thomas Carmichael, S.O. poKtnian, called and examined: — 
 
 The Chairman : Are you a rural ])ostman? 
 
 A. I am a sub-office postman. 
 
 Q. What particular work do you do? 
 
 A. Indoor work and deliveries, as well as other outdoor duties. 
 
 Q. You are going to speak m regard to medical attendance? 
 
 A. That is the question, my lord. 
 
 Q. Do you speak in regard to medical attendance for postmen all over 
 the country, or only rural postmen? 
 
 A. I shall speak for the postmen generally all over the country. I have 
 important evidence which has been sent to me in respect of complaints 
 tliat are made of medical treatment. I am anxious to place these before 
 your lordship, and I wish to say at the same time that I have had no 
 experience mj-.self in matters of this kind, as the system has not yet reached 
 our sub-office. 
 
 Q. The evidence has been supplied to you on these points by your com- 
 rades, has it? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; it has been collected and given into my hands to be dealt 
 with. 
 
 The Chairman : Go on, please. 
 
 Witness : The statement I have to submit to your lordship's Committee 
 for consideration is that of free medical attendance a.s affecting postmen em- 
 ployed at head offices, sub-offices, and other small offices. It is ti'ue that 
 in head offices in London and provincial towns provision is made by the 
 Department for free medical attjndance and medicine to be given to post- 
 men employed at these offices : wherea-s at sub-offices, only a very small 
 number have the privilege extended to them, and those who have rarely take 
 advantage of it owing to the hardships, expenses and inconvenience which 
 accompany its application, making it thereby practically useless for its real 
 purpose. Dividing the subject into two parts for a moment, we have on 
 the one hand sub-office jiostmen contending that its advantages should reach 
 all sub-offices (l)Ut under a more satisfactory basis) than that now in existence, 
 and of which I intend to offer some suggestions later on. On the other 
 hand, we have postmen at sub-offices complaining very bitterly at the 
 manner in which in its operations its usefulness is often robbed, and its 
 proper object totally disregarded by meml:>ers of the medical staff, and 
 of the arbitrary power these gentlemen are permitted to exercise over post- 
 men without let or hindrance. Xow, if in the eyes of some of these medical 
 gentlemen a postman fills a minor position, I would respectfully remind 
 til em that like themselves lie is nevertheless a servant of the Department, 
 whose duties are equally important, entitling him to receive such considera- 
 tion, care, and attention as would l)e meted out to those in a higher rank, 
 and for this purpose, I believe, the authorities deemed it necessary that 
 doctors should be appointed ; and I am of opinion that if the interests of 
 the Department in this particular branch have to be safeguarded, medical 
 officers had better be instructed to equalise matters more creditably than
 
 Sub- Office Po?tt^en. 443 
 
 has hitherto baen the case in respect of postmen, making all alike without 
 mark or distinction, as all are adniitteJly constituent parts, and go to 
 make up and complete the -H-bole machinery of the Post Office sysi.em. I'ost- 
 men at large centres cannot bdieve that the Department is aware of the 
 pauperised treatment meted out to their servants. Government officers, 
 yuur lordship will admit, should not be treated thus. One man in par- 
 ticular had to appeal to the Secretar}' before sick leave was granted him, 
 and another had to obtain the assistance of the local chief cleric before the 
 doctor's stiffness could be removed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Doctor's stifi'ness? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; his obdurate manner. 
 
 The Cliairuian: Is it your contention t'lat postmen receive worse treat- 
 ment from the medical officers than sorting clerks and telegraphists? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; and I think the evidence which I am about to place be- 
 fore the Committee will bear me out in that respect. At Liverpool, for 
 instance, many of the postmen would prefer to have their own " family 
 doctor" on account of the P.O. medical officer's treatment, which is cer- 
 tamly not so good as that of sick clul) doctors, and they are bad enough. 
 The cost of their prescriptions is simply nominal. A cliemist dispensing 
 for one of our medical officers informed Postman S. Dowling that he had 
 agreed to dispense prescriptions for Post Office employees at 3d. per case, 
 except under circumstances of a special chai-acter, when the cost miglit be 
 a little moi'e. 
 
 The Chaunnan : I suppose you would not say it was 3d. per case ; you 
 mean it was 3d. per bottle or box? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; I understand it is such. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is there any objection to that arrangement? If the medical 
 officer is able to make such an arrangement with the chemist would you 
 object to it? 
 
 A. I tliink, sir, it shows witliout a doubt Low much interest the Depart- 
 ment take in their servants' welfare. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by that? 
 
 A. 1 mean tiiat even a bottle of medicine ^;jiicli may only cost 3d. and give 
 to the dispenser out of this a large sliare of profit cannot reasonably be 
 exjiected to contain ingredients of much value. 
 
 The Chairman: I do not see that that fobows. At any rate in that 
 respect appai-ently other servants of the Post Office are in the same position 
 as postmen. You do not say this merely applies to postmen? Is it not the 
 case with Post Office employees altogether? 
 
 A. 1 am onlj dealing wijh the postmen's case, my lord. 
 
 Q. You do not say so here. You told me when you began that the 
 postmen were not a.ware of the position of other employees of the Post 
 Office. Apparently they are all put on the same line in regard to the drugs 
 dispensed ? 
 
 Witness : Postman J. Walsh had a prescription given him by Medical 
 Officer Dr. M'Allister, to take to a charitable institution in Beaufort Street, 
 and, his sister calling there to have it dispensed, was ordered to go round 
 to a back slum to be served with other poor people. 
 
 The Chairman: Is this at Liverpool too? 
 
 A. Yes. my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What do you mean by "back slum?" I should like to 
 know what it means. Do you mean she was sent round to the doctor's back 
 door ? 
 
 A. I understand it is some kin! of c nvenienc ■ commonly made hy parochial 
 doctor.sfor .serving p' or people in tlie district in whitdi they are concerned. 
 
 Q. You mean that the doctor has two doors, and sees some patients — 
 as naany doctors do — ^at the door at tlie back of his premises? 
 
 A. Tlie fact of the postman's sister or friend having l:)een sent round tp 
 such a place is decideilly lowering to the Department. I do not think that
 
 444 Thomas CarMichael, lleckmondwike. 
 
 the authorities, if they knew of such a case, would allow the doctor to do 
 ai'.ything of tiie kind. 
 
 Witness : Occasionally the hiderms and inliuman {irictice a'lopted to- 
 wards candidates for ajipointments in the matter of teeth extraction in 
 some cases is most revolting, is uncilled for, Ls unnecessary, and certainly 
 inexcusal)le. How can it affect the Department if a cindidrite has to submit 
 to one or a dozen teeth heing taken out? If the object in view is to ensure 
 for tiie public a more pleasing appearance of the man who is to be a re- 
 presentative of the Department, surely it is not too much to ask the De- 
 partment to encourage this by supplying a new set of artificial ones, and 
 so save the new entrants a needless expenditure of £5. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Encourage what? 
 
 A. Good appearance in the street, for the authorities must know that 
 young men being thus deprived will strive hard to have them replaced as 
 soon as possible. 
 
 The Ciiairman : Is it not the fact — I am not defending the rule in reg-ird 
 to the exfraction of teeth — is it not a fact that the reason for examining the 
 teeth is that it is supposed that a man must masticate his food properly in 
 order to digest it properly, and. therefore, knowing the importance of a man 
 having good general health, it is desirable lie should have good teeth in his 
 head? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; but when a man previous to his appointment receives a 
 notification that he must have a, certain number of teeth extracted before he 
 can receive his appointment, I think something should be done for him by 
 the Department for being so deprived. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Xo other men will receive such a notification in the future. 
 (Continuing. Mr. Walpole said he did not know the witness was going to 
 speak on this subject, and intimated that that rule was abolished last 
 Saturday. ) 
 
 Wit tfss: Ihave the following re port regarding *eeth extra cti )nfro nT rquay: — 
 In order t-o pass the nielical oflicer's eximination oendidates for the appomt- 
 ment of postmen are obliged to have new teeth put in ; the expenses in- 
 cun-ed in endeavouring to carry out tlie whims and eccentricities demanded 
 thus have cost some of the men friim 50s. to £5. Fuller particulars will 
 be sent on if desu-ed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They have never required teeth to be put in ; they have 
 )-cquired teeth to lae fciken out. Do you know of any case where the men 
 liave V>een required to put in teeth? 
 
 A. Cases have been reported to me. 
 
 Q. Of the Department requiring teeth to be put in? 
 
 A. No, sir ; but where the men have gone to that expense. 
 
 Q. A good many of us do that. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. But it wa.s throiigli the comim'sory extraction of tlie teeth privi'Us to 
 their app lintmeiit. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: They had them put back again afterwards. (Laughter.) 
 
 Witness : T^vo others were refused on similar grounds, one of whom, 
 however, has since been passed in, although at that time he was told that, 
 in addition to the above, he was suffering from heart disease, and therefore 
 no good for Post Office emplojinent. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it worth while going into the question of teeth ex- 
 traction now that Mr. Walpole has told you the rule has been abolished? 
 The rule was abolished on Saturday. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I did not know you were going to speak about it to-day. 
 I am not prepared to hear it. Perhaps you would not object to handing 
 in the medical evidence. 
 
 Lord Tweedmouth followed up with a similar request, and the witness, 
 after being assured that justice would be done to it, complied.
 
 Sub-Office Postmen. 445 
 
 WAGES. 
 
 Witness : Generally si>eaking, the home liabilities of siib-offico postmen, if 
 carefully considered, are certainl}^ much greater than a casual glance would 
 lead us to believe, for, on examination, I tind that house rents in many 
 small towns with populations varying from 8,0C0 to 12,000 and upwards, 
 for such habitations as the authorities would desire that their servants 
 should occupy, cannot be had for less sums than 4s. 6d., 5s. 9J., and 7s. 3d., 
 and some are even giving higher than this. An instmce in my own neigh- 
 bourhood — The L. and N. W. Railway are extending their system through 
 Spen Valley ; the new line is now in course of cons*^ruction, and, in conse- 
 quence of this, many dwelling-houses have had to come down. In my own 
 little town, with its population of under 10,00", upwards of a 100 houses have had 
 to be pulled down. But tlie railwny compan'-, in providing for this wholesale 
 demolition, have erected utiio's — in equal nunibers — and tlie lowest rent a-ked 
 for these is 4s. 6d. per week, wjiich does not include rates, as these are paid 
 separately as follows: — Poor rate, 3s. par £; general district rate, 3s. per 
 £ ; general district water. Is. ; water rent, 10s. per annum. These cheap 
 back-to-back houses are not now so much sought after, since local sanitary 
 authorities look upon them with disfavour, and condemn them as being 
 very unhealthy. 
 
 The Chairman : What is the total amount of your own rate bill, do you 
 know ? 
 
 A. About 50s. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What is your owh rent? Do not answer that if you would 
 prefer not to. 
 
 A. I would rather not answer it. I am obliged to live in a house accord- 
 ing to my circumstances ; I have a large family, and I could do with more 
 accommodation than what I can afford to pay for. Food, clothing, and the 
 necessaries of life generally, as a matter of fact, ;)re more expensive in small 
 towns owhig to competition being less keen than at large centres. Taking 
 these things into consideration, together with the prospects sub-office post- 
 men have of promotion their condition is, indeed, most pitiable. So in- 
 .significant are our claims for a. step up the lailder that, I believe, however 
 deserving of promotion anyone of our number may ])e, he is invariably 
 about the last person our head Postmaster would ever think of recommend- 
 ing, or considering in a matter so important. How to account for this 
 neglect of duty, this total absence of the one thing which is encouraging, 
 the indifference manifested with regard to the welfare and future prospects 
 of deserving subordinates, is a problem I have tried manj' times to solve, 
 but I can conceive no other reason for it than the degi"ading uniform, for 
 such it is in the eyes of those above us. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you want to do away with uniforms altogetlier, or 
 do you, like the last witness, wait a uniform the same as the town post- 
 men? 
 
 A. I should prefer to do away with it altogether if we did not receive 
 better treatment than is accorded to us. It seems to be general, too, all 
 over the country. This is one thing in particular whicli we want to bring 
 prominently before your lordship's Committee : we think we are entitled 
 to greater respect than what is given to us. 
 
 Q. Bv whom? The public? 
 
 A. No ; by our superiors. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: How do you mean gre;xtter respect? Are you treated dis- 
 respectfully ? 
 
 A. I will come to that 1\v and bye. Our superior officers, if pressed, 
 would very likely admit that their indifference and disregard of the ju.st 
 claims of the postmen generally to advance by way of promotion, is not on 
 account of their character or incapali^'.rr ; it is not because they are illi- 
 terate, for that would not correspond v, it^i the duties they have to" perform; 
 it is not, in fact, the man himself, because at church or chapel, dressed in
 
 446 Thomas Caujiichakl, Ileckmonchviko. 
 
 his own attire, he resembles so niucli of a sameness with the rest of tlie 
 congregation tliat even his superiors miglit ruh the risk of calling liim 
 " Mr." without loxs of dignity. Then wli;it on earth is it if it is not tlie 
 "cloth?" Anxious, therefore, to maintiin nil under our roof \\ith comfort 
 and respectiV>ility, we find it utterly impossible under present conditions, 
 because 22s. or 21s. is positively inadequate, and falls much below the real 
 value the situation ougiit to command. The importance of our work and 
 the consequences likely to follow any negligence or carelessness in the dis- 
 charge of those duties are so exceptionally severe m character that it would 
 b; imposs;il)Ie to find a parallel case out of the many brandies which go to 
 make up the great industrial classes of this country, lliese jxirticulars 
 shoulil not be lost sight of, because. Avhen the question of wages has been 
 dLscussed, the authorities have endeavoured to justify themselves in the 
 matter of making comparisons with certam of these outside classes. I trust, 
 therefore, I have said sufficient to convince your lordship's Committee that 
 a recommendation should Ije made on our behalf for a sabstantial increase 
 in wages, seeing that we have both medically and educationally qualified our- 
 selves for the position, according to the requirements of the Department; 
 and in the readjusting of wages I trust, therefore, that the great disparity 
 now existing between sub-offices and head offices will be a thing of the 
 past. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Mav I ask what is vour scale of wage ? 
 
 A. 24s. 
 
 Q. From 17s. to 24s. ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Your head office is Normanton, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the scale of the head office at Xormanton? 
 
 A. I believe it is 24s. 
 
 Q. There is no disparity in your case, then, between the sub-office wage 
 and the head office wage? 
 
 A. It is not so generally. At Xormanton, I believe, there is only one 
 town postman. It is simply a village, and should not be compared at all. 
 
 Q. I was taking your case as a tt^st case. In your case there is no dis- 
 parity between the sub-office wage and the head office wage? 
 
 A. We are clissed in the first seal? of 24s. I think there are something 
 like 1,590 sub-office postmen, of which only 326 are in receipt of the first 
 .scale. The following are my reasons for making this claim: — 1. That in 
 many small towns house rents are exceptionally high in comparison to the 
 wages S.O. postmen are in receipt of ; 2, that owing to less competition 
 in smaller towns living, as a matter of fact, is much more expensive ; 3, 
 that promotion for S.O. postmen is imquestionably a dead letter ; 4, that we 
 have no Departmental M.O., and therefore out of our scant wages have to 
 pay our own doctor's bills : 5. that S.O. postmen between duties may l)e 
 asked to leave the office, in consequence of which he Ls obliged to hang 
 about the streets, no retiring-room being provided for his accommodation. 
 
 The Chairman: Wliat is the scale of wages you ask for sub-office post- 
 men ? 
 
 A. I would suggest, my lord, that we go up to 36s. (Hear, hear.) I 
 do not think I am asking too much in that. I would also suggest that the 
 annual increment shoidd be 2s. per week. 
 
 Q. A^ou now go from 17s. to 24s. ? • 
 
 A. A'es, my lord. 
 
 Q. Y'ou do not ask for any increase in the minimum? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord : I should recommend that the minimum start at 20s. 
 
 Q. Then you ask for 20s., rising to 56s.? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Rising l)y 2s. a week? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord.
 
 Sub-Office Postmen. 447 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is that 36s. to be exclusive of stripes? 
 
 A. Stripes, of course, are given as extras. 
 
 Q. I am only asking you the question. 
 
 A. Yes ; exclusive of stripes, which are, of course, given only to de- 
 serving ones. 
 
 The Chairman : Or rather they are withheld from undeserving ones ? 
 (Laughter.) I think that is the better way to put it. 
 
 Witness : At this point I sliould like to relate a little incident that trans- 
 pired a short time ago in respect to myself. I have three stripes, and 
 although I got the first two without any trouble, the third was overdue 18 
 months, when a gentleman, believed to have come from London, came upon 
 the scene, and made it his business to inquire into the matter. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Into your particular matter, as to why you were kept 
 without the stripe? 
 
 A. Yes, sir; they are at times exceptionally good. 
 
 Q. Had you complained? 
 
 A. Yes ; and he came to investigate the matter before awarding the stripe. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I hope he did not come all the way from London? 
 
 A. I believe so ; it was the first time we had seen him. 
 
 Q. Was he not one of the surveyor's clerks in your district? 
 
 A. I do not know, sir ; I have never seen him before or since. After he 
 had gone the Postmaster told me he had had a lot of trouble with him, 
 that in giving emphasis to the truth of his statement on my behalf he had 
 to strike the desk several, times. (Lautrhter.) The dispute arose over a 
 late attendance of a quarter-of-an-hour, for which I was asked to give an 
 explanation. I had only been late once in 6^ years. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Was that the only time you were late? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; a quarter-of-an-hour in 65 years. He wanted an ex- 
 planation, and I told him I could not remember the occasion, which indeed 
 I could not, but that would not satisfy him ; I must make an explanation 
 of some sort. When I examined the time-book I found that the late atten- 
 dance was in the month of December, eight or ten days before Cliristmas, 
 and at that time each year we have, as a rule, excessive deliverie.s of corres- 
 pondence, and no doubt on that account I must have felt overworked, and, 
 in consequence, overslept myself in the morning. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It was hardly worth sending an officer from London for 
 that? 
 
 A. Hardly worth while investigating a case so frivolous. 
 
 Q. I think not. 
 
 A. Ihe stripe was put off, however, for a further peri' d ( f three months, so 
 that altogether I had to wait 1 jear and !) months for it on account of tliis 
 late attendance. 
 
 The Chairman: But when you got it, it dated back? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; but that does not remove the injust'ce attached to the 
 delay in awarding them as they become due. 
 
 ACTING HEAD POSTMEN AT S.O'S. 
 
 The Department has not yet seen fit to appoint a head postman at all 
 S.O's., but I would like to recommend this change, believing that its adop- 
 tion would be accepted at S.O's. with much satisfaction, for in addition 
 to creating a feeling of contentment, it might also be accepted as a kind of 
 promotion, not only by the senior men, but also by the others following up, 
 and from which, together with our comrades at head offices, head post- 
 men, inspectors, etc., might with advantage be drawn. The experience 
 and usefulness of the senior postmen at S.O. is very helpful, and can best 
 be appreciated by their respective S.P.M., whose Imurs are long and con- 
 tinuous, their duties arduous and confining, and, if absent only for a little 
 while, the office, for the time being, is practically without a head. The 
 S.P.M. cannot rely on pmictuality, accuracy, and good management from a
 
 448 Thomas Carmichael, Heckmondwike. 
 
 boy clerk, who porliaps but a short time before was only a telc'<;rapli ines engcr. 
 rfc is absolutely incon.sistent, and it is cruel to attempt to place a 3'outh, 
 even temporarily, over the heiids of a number of intelligent men, any one 
 of whom, it may )>&, i.s old enough to be fatlier to the lad. 
 
 Mr. Walpole:' What? 
 
 A. A boy clerk mii;ht be left occasionally in cliar^'e of counter vork, seeing 
 that the uniform is objected to behind the counter. A survey. ir's clerk, calling 
 one day, observed a postman on the other cide of the counter » dually 
 serving. This was too much for him, so he pro ested. The I'ustuiasti-r ex- 
 plained, however, that the uniformed man was his son, and a request was 
 made that lie would not allow him to apj^ear again at the counter in uni- 
 form. It i.s again a question of covering. He may do these duties in his 
 own clotlies^ but not in uniform. The senior postman should be appointed 
 assistant 'o the sub-postmaster, aid control in his absence. The boy clerk 
 would then have more confidence in his work, knowing that there is some 
 one senior to himself in authority. At H.O. there is the H.P. inspector and 
 assistant-inspectors, according to the number of men emploj'ed. The sur- 
 veyors, or their clerks, when they pay us a visit, they have the system in 
 vogue at larger offices so well ground into them that an attempt is often 
 made to work smaller offices on similar lines — in my opinion an utter im- 
 possibilit3^ The sub-office with its six, eight, or more men, -no established 
 clerk, S.P.M. opens the mail-bags ; the senior postman mav have 10 or 
 15 years' service in, but it avails him nothing. His stripes in a matter 
 of this kind are set down as of no value, he is distrusted just as though he 
 had entered the Service the day previous. His character all along may be 
 irreproachable, but alike indifference is meted out to him. What is the 
 reason? "Uniform!" The S.P.M. may be taken ill durmg the night; 
 what have we to do? The boy assistant perhaps is not on duty, yet it is 
 laid do«Ti under any circumstances postmen are strictly forbidden to open 
 mail-bags, or to sort letters other than their own. The V)oy arrives with a 
 look of satisfaction Hitting over his infant countenance — (laughter) — no 
 doubt at the thought of his usefulness and importance, and proceeds to 
 accomplish the gre.it act which not even his father dare do, because he is 
 only a postman. 
 
 The Chairman : What you want is that the senior postmen at these sub- 
 offices should be recognised as assistants to the Postmaster? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. It .seems inconsistent to place a boy over the heads of 
 a number of men. I think that senior postmen at sub-offices generally would 
 accept it in that way. 
 
 Q. That is with an extra allowance for it? 
 
 A. They would not ol)ject to that. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: To having no extr.i ullow.snce? (Laughter.) 
 
 A. No ; to receiving one. 
 
 The Cliairman : What you want to arrive at is this : you want a recogni- 
 tion of position? That is what you a:e asking for? 
 
 A. Personally, I should prefer that, i ven without an extra allowance, rather 
 than the existing arrangement should remain unaltered. In a S. O. near 
 Leeds the following incident transpired: — 6 am., surveyor's eleik enters 
 (unexpectedly). The sub-postmaster not feeling well was a little later 
 than usual, and to save time the respecte 1 senior postman opened 
 the mail-bags ; he is a man of unimpeachable character, highly respected, 
 is looked up to by all with whom lie comes in contact, his length of service 
 is 18 years, and is the wearer of three good conduct stripes. He has never 
 Iteen reported for any offence, he is^a Sunday-school teacher, and a deacon 
 in the church connected therewith. A week later this man is informed by 
 his sub-postmaster that although he lias in him implicit confidence, he 
 must not in future open any mail -bap, as or''ers to that effect had been 
 received, that this must be done by himself or his assistant, a boy whose 
 age is about 15, promoted from the telegraph messenger staff. Imagine 
 the man's feelings then, when askeJ to step on one side to make room for
 
 Em > 
 
 P3
 
 >liUi.Nc, 
 
 ,\s 
 
 ,L 4QBamo )ai
 
 Sub-Office Postmen. 449 
 
 a boy who had not been bom for three or four years after this man had 
 received his appointment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: The Department actually told the Postmaster to do his own 
 work ; was that it ? 
 
 A. It was certainly a case of sickness ; he was not by any means enjoy- 
 ing good health at the time, and it would only have been consistent for an 
 officer of mature age to do a thmg of this sort rather than a boy of tender 
 years. This does not apj)ear to be confined to one particular quarter ; 
 several complaints of a similar character come from S.O. in Kent. One from 
 Erith S.O. , Woolwicli, says lie has been established 20 year?, and 
 was sent from Woolwich head office 17 years ago purposely to take up the 
 duties of acting head postman at Erith S.O. After 13 years' service as such 
 he asked that he might be placed on the head postmen class, but was told 
 this could not be granted, because much of the work he was doing could 
 be done by the sub-postmaster. Two years later an order was issued for- 
 bidding acting head postmen opening bags, dealing with registered letters, 
 etc., so that the work he had been .sent to do, and had done for a period 
 of 15 years without complaint, was taken away from him, and is now 
 being performed by the sub-postmaster's assistant — ^a young (imestab- 
 lished) officer. Wliy more confidence is placed in the unestablished is a 
 problem. No justification can be assigned for the contemptuous and insult- 
 ing method adopted in addressing postmen, not only by some in authority, 
 but also by boy clerks. A case was brought under my notice a short time 
 ago which happened at Batley, i.e., a. report of a frivolous character had 
 been written out, intended for one of these youths who had in the mean- 
 time asked to be transferred to the auxiliary class, with a view to obtaining 
 an appointment as postman The repoi t was made out with due respect towards 
 those who are permitted to labour outside of the offici'il uniform sheU, and ^vas 
 endorsed " Mr." .-'o-and-so. but directly it was made known that he had joined 
 the postman's ranks the report was sent to him with the " Mr." struck out.
 
 STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE ESTABLISHED POSTMEN OF 
 THE SUB-OFFICES OF SOUTH COUNTY DUBLIN. 
 
 Handed in by Mr. Carmieliael, Heckmondwike. 
 
 The first matter which we respectfully beg to submit for your con- 
 sideration is the imix)rtant one of wages. We consider that our present 
 wages are at very unfair remuneration for the duties which we perform, 
 and altogether inadequate to maintain us and our families in decency, much 
 less in comparative comfort, considering the present cost of living, house 
 rents, etc., etc. 
 
 The maximum wage in the majority of offices in South Coimty Dublin 
 is 24s. per week, in a few it is 20s. and 22s. The minimum is 17s., and 
 in a few 16s. And, considering the responsibilities we are under and the 
 arduous work we have to do, which in tiie majority of sub-offices in South 
 County Dublin is more laborious than that in London, Dublin City, Man- 
 chester, Liverpool, Glasgow, and Edinburgh, as we have to take out on 
 each delivery of letters all parcels for delivery without any assistance what- 
 soever, and in many cases we have to carry these parcels a distance of from 
 2^ to 5 miles before finishing our delivery, and then in some cases to wait 
 at the end of our journey for over two, three, and four hours before return- 
 ing to the office with a heavy collection of letters and parcels. We there- 
 fore respectfully claim an equal right to be placed on the same scale of pay 
 with them. We earnestly hops the Committee will s-ee the justice of re- 
 commending one scale of pay for all established postmen throughout the 
 United Kingdom, with a minimum of 20s., increasing by 2s. a year to a 
 maximum of 40s. per week. 
 
 With regard to those so-called gratuities which postmen receive at Christ- 
 mas-time from the public, we beg to say that we regard the system as de- 
 grading to the sncial character of postmen, and we sincerely hope the Com- 
 mittee will strongly recommend its abolition. 
 
 With regard to this matter, the Postmaster-Gleneral (at the time) stated, 
 in reply to a question put on the subject in the House of Commons a few 
 years ago, that he estimated the value of those gratuities as equivalent to 
 5s. per week per man. and that he was influenced by it in fixing the maxi- 
 mum wage of established postmen. 
 
 vSuch an estimation, as far as the sub-offices of South County Dublin — 
 and we firmly believe 90 per cent, of provincial postmen — are concerned, 
 is most unjust to us. 
 
 We are prepared to prove that the average value of these so-called gra- 
 tuities does not amount to more than Is. 6d. or 2s. per man per week, 
 and in many cases it is under Is. 
 
 We therefore earnestly hope that this begging, degrading system will 
 be abolished, and that the Committee will recommend the Postmaster- 
 General to make it prohibitory, and if necessary under a penalty, for all 
 postmen to solicit or accept in future those questionable free gifts at 
 Christmas-time, and that their estimated value by the Postmaster-General 
 be added to our regular wages. Such a departure from this system will 
 be unanimously approved of by all postmen, as it will undoubtedly tend to 
 raise the social and moral character of the men, and save them from many 
 and painful humiliations, and perserve to them their spirit of self-respect 
 and independence,
 
 The South County Dublin'^Case. 451 
 
 We therefore again express the hope that the Committee ■will recommend 
 the speedy abolition of this degi-ading and humiliating practice. 
 
 With regard to promotion, we can assure you that there has not been one 
 postman promoted to any of the higher grades from the sub-offices in South 
 County Dublin within the last 24 years. We are practically shut out from 
 promotion from the rank of postman. 
 
 As regards medical attendance, we wish to point out that in many of the 
 offices the men are excluded from free medical aid when ill, and have to 
 pay the local doctor for attendances and certificates. This we regard as 
 most unfair. 
 
 As to pimisliment, we consider it excessive to deprive a man of his stripes 
 or stripe for five years, which means a fine of £2 12s. a year, amounting 
 in all to £13, for some offence which would be sufficiently punished by 
 extra work or a reasonable fine. We regard the present system as simple 
 tyranny. 
 
 As to the hours of duty, we beg to call the Committee's attention to the 
 fact that many of us are doing over eight hours, and in some cases nine 
 hours per day. We also feel the present arrangement of our duties a 
 grievous hardship, as they are spread over 14, 15, and 16 hours jjer day. 
 We a.sk that our day's work be so arranged as not to extend beyond 12 
 hours per day. We also wish to call your attention to the number of atten- 
 dances which many of us have to make per day. In many cases we are put 
 off duty for 10. 15, and 20 minutes tetween the duties, and are forced to 
 remain about the office, as we cannot return home. The majority of us 
 have to attend five, six, and some sev^en times per day. The average 
 number of miles walked per day by us is 18. 
 
 We also wish to bring under your notice the hardship some of us have 
 to undergo by having to walk a distance of six or seven miles on a delivery 
 of letters and heavy load of parcels, and when finished perhaps wet through 
 with rain, having to depend on the charity of some neighbour for shelter 
 for three or four hours before commencing tl:e return journey home with a 
 heavy collecti|n of letters, sealed bags, and parcels. We 'claim that we 
 should be credited with the time our outward journey begins until we return 
 to the starting-point, or at least granted some allowance for shelter while 
 waiting to return to the starting-point. 
 
 With regard to the present Superannuation Act, we consider it most un- 
 satisfactory. Under the present system a man receiving his appointment 
 at 18 years of age must serve a term of not less than 42 years before he 
 can claim to retire on pension, unless he is medically unfit or totally in- 
 capacitated. We also consider that l-60th of our pay for eac'i year of ser- 
 vice is insufficient to keep us in comfort when beyond our labour. We 
 therefore hope the Committee will recommend that the present Super- 
 annuation Act be amended in such a way as to leave it optional for a man 
 to retire at 25 years' service on a pension of two-thirds of his pay, and that 
 his retirement be compulsory at 30 years' service on a pension of three- 
 fourths of his pay, instead of, as at present, half-pay. 
 
 We beg leave to add that within the last ten years there have been only 
 two men superannuated in South County Dublin. We wish to point out 
 tHat it is optional with the Irish Police to retire on pension at 25 years" 
 service, and at 28 on a pension of three-fourths of their pay.
 
 SUPPLEMENTARY EVIDENCE LODGED WITH THE COMMITTEE 
 BY MR. MACLAREN. GLASGOW. 
 
 In the course of his evidence, Mr. S. Wright (of Leeds) referred to the 
 old rule of the Service which directed that sorterships in the provincial 
 offices should be reserved exclusively for letter-carriers. It is now im- 
 possible to give in e.rtenso the rule referred to, as the old Rule Book has 
 been superseded by 1893 edition, in which it appears in a modified form. 
 
 The part of the old rule whicii concerns us is a.s follows : — 
 
 " Vacancies in sorter's class should be filled by direct appointment only 
 in the event of no one of the letter-carriers desiring to succeed to the vacancy 
 and being qualified to perform the duties required." 
 
 In our view of the case, we do not admit t!ie justice of the disparity 
 between the wages paid to sorting clerks and those paid to postmen. We 
 do, however, suggest that when this distinction was first introduced it 
 was the intention of the Department that the sorting branch should be an 
 avenue of promotion open to the postmen's class. Our complaint is that 
 local Postmasters were allowed to treat as their own private patronage 
 the bestowal of sorterships which ought by strict letter of rule to have been 
 reserved exclusively for letter-carriers, so long as any of the latter class 
 were able and willing to succeed to the vacant sorting duties. 
 
 Lest it should be contended by the Department that the rule in question 
 had long since been rescinded, I beg to submit the following extracts from 
 official papers, which go to show that the rule remained in force — at least 
 nominally — till 1893. The following extracts also illustrate by concrete 
 example the grievance complained of, and the steps taken to obtain redress 
 officially : — 
 
 1.— EXTRACT FROM GENERAL PETITION. 
 
 " Tiiat the injustice perpetrated upon postmen through the absence of a 
 clearly-defined system of promotion can never be adjusted unless an inde- 
 pendent Committee be appointed to consider this question with powers to 
 act : we therefore pray that you will ensure for your petitioners this rea- 
 sonable request." 
 
 (The Glasgow copy of this petition was dated 16th Jan., 1893, and signed 
 by 644 postmen.) 
 
 2.— THE POSTMASTER-GENERAL'S DECISION. 
 
 " In the country there is no restriction upon the promotion of such post- 
 men as possess the necessary qualifications. This condition being fulfilled 
 postmen can rise to the class of sorting clerks and telegraphists, and even 
 higher appointments. As a matter of fact, many of the present sorting 
 clerks and not a few of the Postmasters entered the Service as postmen. 
 In this respect, therefore, no change appears to the Postmaster-General 
 to be necessary." — 19th Feb., 1893. 
 
 3.— REJOINDER FROM THE GLASGOW POSTMEN TO THE 
 POSTMASTER-GENERAL. 
 
 " Your memorialists beg to state that they are at a loss to understand the 
 full import of your references to the higher appointments which are seem- 
 ingly open to postmen : they therefore beg to give herewith a tabulated list
 
 Supplementary Evidence. 453 
 
 of all the promotions to higher appoiutments which have taken place at 
 this office within the last ten years, viz. : — 
 
 1. Mr. D. Cameron to be Assistant-Inspector of rostaaen. 
 
 2. ,, R. Hinshelwood ,, ,, ,, 
 
 3. ,, R. Kerr ,, ,, ,, 
 
 4. ,, A. Ross ,, ,, ,, 
 
 5. ,, M. Burke ,, ,, ,, 
 
 6. , J. Robertson ,, ,, ,, 
 
 7. ,, K. Barton ,, ,, ,, 
 
 8. ,, T). Shearer ,. ,, ,, 
 0. ,, J. Hunter to be rcwtniaster of Bathgate. 
 
 "With regard to transfers to the sorting branch, your memorialists 
 admit that theoretically there may be no restrictions, but exjDerience has 
 shown otherwise. For thougji, during the last 10 years, about 150 vacaut 
 sorting clerkships have been tilled uj) at Glasgow, so far as your memorialists 
 can ascertain, only two bona Ude postmen have been selected. They are 
 James Turner and Jas. W. Langjimir. Your memorialists are aware that 
 there is a rule in the Book of Rules to Head Postmasters bearing on this 
 subject, which directs that vacancies in sorter's class ' should be filled by 
 direct appointment only in the event of no one of letter-carriers desiring 
 to succeed to the vacancy and being qualified to perform.' But this rule 
 has been practically disregarded at Glasgov/ for the last ten years, as your 
 memorialists liave already shown by the statistics furnished. Considering 
 that there are now over 500 established postmen at Glasgow, your memor- 
 ialists respectfully submit that nine promotions to higher appointments and 
 two transfers to the sorting branch in ten years do not afl'ord adequate 
 opportunities of promotion. In these circumstances your memorialists are 
 still of the opinion that an independent inquiry is necessary." — April, 1893. 
 
 When presenting the memorial containing the disputed quotation, our 
 local Postmaster (Francis Braid, Esq.) took exception to the quotation, 
 and expressed some doubt as to whether such a rule really existed, and, 
 producing his own working copy of the Book of Rules for Head Post- 
 masters, he challenged me to find it. I turned up the rule and read it 
 aloud, and after doing so the Postmaster and Mr. D. Beaton (who was 
 also present) scrutinised the rule in question, and compared it with quota- 
 tion in the memorial. Ultimately the Postmaster was forced to admit both 
 the accuracy and the fairness of the quotation. 
 
 Putting the construction which we did on this rule — and by implication 
 making a charge of favouritism against such Postmasters as had disregarded 
 it — we contend that it was the Postmaster-General's duty to have informed 
 us in the event of our having quoted in support of our case any rule which 
 had authoritatively become obsolete. Iik absence of such a disclaimer, we 
 take it that we established a clear case of rule being disregarded. Instead 
 of enforcing the rule, however, the Depirtment saw fit to modify it to suit 
 the practice which prevailed, thereby condoning the conduct of such Post- 
 masters as had bestowed sorterships on their own friends. It may be 
 urged in defence by the Department that the postmen's class are not now 
 expected to furnish candidates for vacancies in the better paid posts in the 
 Service. We admit that some change was effected in 1893 ; for example, 
 the entrance examination to the sorting clerk's class was raised somewhat. 
 It is also quite true that in 1891 a change was effected in the condition of 
 entrance to postmen's class, which is calculated to lower the status of the 
 postmen. We refer to the reduction from 18s. to 17s. of the initial wage of 
 established postmen. 
 
 We confess that we have at times entertained some suspicion that this 
 policy was conceived and carried out by the Department in the full know- 
 ledge that it tended towards deteriorathig efficiency of the force. For when 
 well-to-do working men come to understand the real state of matters — the 
 low commencing wages, the prolonged unestablished service, etc. — they will
 
 454 
 
 A. M'Laken, Glasgow. 
 
 show greater and greater reluctance to make either telegraph messengers 
 or postmen of their sons. In this way one of the most important fields 
 for recruiting the Service will be put out of bounds. It is, therefore, only 
 to be expected that the continued application of the policy will leave its 
 mark on the personnel of the force. 
 
 We do not admit that the filling up of sorterships by direct appointment 
 has resulted in any material improvement in the sorting force. Speaking 
 particularly of my own office, I desire to state that some of the ablest and 
 most efficient officers in the sorting branch are men who have been postmen : 
 and it is our complaint that the process of promotion by which these men 
 attained their preseat position has been allowed to fall into disuse. 
 
 In fairness to the Department, we must frankly confess that at Glasgow 
 the postmen are not so rigorously excluded from the sorting branch as 
 they used to be. Formerly the rule of the Service gave preference to post- 
 men over everyone else, but this rule was never carried out. Nowadays 
 the postmen have no preference over others for vacant sorting clerkships, 
 neither are they boycotted as they used to be. In fact, since the sorting 
 clerks' entrance examination was raised in 1893, the Postmaster of Glasgow 
 has seen his way to allow postmen to secure a fairish proportion of the 
 vacancies, and we contend that the experiment has justified itself, inas- 
 much as that the postmen's branch proved able to supply suitable recruits. 
 
 It may be added that the experience gained on letter-delivering duty would 
 be in the nature of good training for sorting duty. In saying so we do 
 not in the least admit that sorting is in itself a superior duty which ought 
 to be more highly paid than letter-carrying. On the contrary, we maintain 
 that letter-delivery is equally responsible as sorting. But the sorting on 
 account of its being indoor duty, physically less fatiguing, etc., will always 
 have attractions for some of the postmen's class, even supposing the pay 
 and prospects of promotion be the same. But the restrictions which obtain 
 at Glasgow put the majority of postmen out of bounds for transfers to the 
 sorting office. These restrictions are that postmen candidates must be under 
 22 years of age and in receipt (if appointed) of less than 20s. per week. 
 
 The loss of sorterships is not, however, the only respect in whijh the 
 postmen have been encroached on. The sorting branch has been .allowed, 
 not merely its own proper quota of higher appointments, but, in addition, 
 it has monopolised a number of promotions which ought in fairness to have 
 been open to the postmen's branch. This, we suggest, is the true explana- 
 tion of the disproportionate number of higher appointments possessed by 
 the sorting branch as compared with the telegraph branch. In support of 
 this contention, the following statements concerning the Glasgo^v Office 
 are ofiFered as being typical of other large provincial towns : — 
 
 TABLE A. 
 
 Showing list of certain duties (higher appointments and cle^'ical duties) 
 the filling up of which is not participated in by the postmen's brancli : — 
 
 OFFICE WHEKE LOCATED. 
 
 Number of 
 Appointments 
 
 held by 
 Sorting Branch. 
 
 12 
 5 
 
 4 
 2 
 
 1 
 1 
 
 Number of 
 
 Appointments 
 
 held by 
 
 Telegraph Branch. 
 
 Accounts Branch, 
 
 Public Enquiry Office, &c., 
 
 Outdoor Enquiry Offices, 
 
 Rural Postmen's Branch, 
 
 Returned Lrtter Branch, 
 
 Storekeeper, 
 
 Clerk in Charge, Govan B.O., 
 
 3 
 3
 
 Supplementary Evidence. 
 
 455 
 
 TABLE B. 
 
 Showing details of salaries of officers quoted in Table A: — 
 
 
 
 Annual Salary. 
 
 
 Wa 
 
 ges. 
 
 No. 
 
 BANK. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Min. 
 
 Inc. 
 £15 
 
 Max. 
 400 
 
 Min. 
 
 Inc. 
 
 Max 
 
 I. 
 
 Superintendents, 
 
 £310 
 
 
 
 
 2. 
 
 Assist. -Supts., 1st Clas-, 
 
 260 
 
 10 
 
 310 
 
 
 
 
 3. 
 
 ,, 2nd ,, 
 
 200 
 
 10 
 
 200 
 
 
 
 
 15. 
 
 Clerks, 
 
 150 
 
 S 
 
 190 
 
 
 
 
 7. 
 
 Sortii g Clerks, 1st Class, 
 
 
 
 
 40/- 
 
 2/. 
 
 56/- 
 
 a. 
 
 Telegraph Clerks, ,, 
 
 
 
 
 40/- 
 
 "■ 
 
 5(V- 
 
 In the case of some duties enumerated in foregoing tables, the work 
 consists almost entirely of overseeing matters connected with the poscmen's 
 branch, yet the officers themselves are not men who have ri?en through 
 the postmen's ranks. For example — (a) There are two clerks whose time 
 is mostly taken up with postmen's wages-sheet ; (b) there are two soi'tiug 
 clerks whose work chiefly consists of checking postmen's delivery lists ; 
 
 (c) there are one assistant-superint?ndent and three clerks whose principal 
 duty is to oversee postmen employed at the suVj-offices under Glasgow ; 
 
 (d) there are three clerks employed on outdoor inquiry duty — a duty which 
 formerly devolved on the inspectors of postmen. 
 
 The transfer of the outdoor inf(uiry work from the postmen's branch to 
 the sorting branch was — and is still — regarded as an miwarrantable encroach- 
 ment on the postmen's proj^er field of promotion. On grounds of propor- 
 tional repi-esentation alone the postmen might reasonably lay claim to some 
 of the duties enumerated in the foregoing tables. But we do not base our 
 claim entirely on these grounds. We attach quite as much importance to 
 the fact that our branch could produce a sufficient supply of competent 
 officers ; and admitting, as we do, the right of the Department to receive 
 a fair day's darg from each of its employees, we regarcl it as being of the 
 highest importance that the supervising officers should be practical men 
 with a capacity for organisation — men capable of giving the best service 
 to the public consistent with a just consideration of the needs of the De- 
 partment's servants. By this we mean the true economy which avoids 
 wasted force, and not false economy, which merely saves money by grinding 
 down the lower and more helpless grades of the Service. 
 
 Although, so far, we have deemed it our duty to simply uphold the claims 
 of the postmen, we are far from considering the matter as a mere question 
 of postmen v. sorting clerks for the promotion incidental to the Service. 
 On public grounds we take leave to express our serious doubts as to the 
 soundness of the policy which fostered such flagrant nepotism as was 
 brought out in evidence m the Liverpool, Leeds, and Brighton cases. In 
 this connection the following quotation will, doubtless, be interesting: — 
 
 " In December, 1787, the Commission of Inquiry commenced its labours. 
 Exactly a century had elapsed since the Post Office had undergone a similar 
 ordeal, a period far too long for any public Department to be left to itself, 
 and meanwhile abuses had taken root and flourished." — H. Joyce, " History 
 of the Post Office." 
 
 Concurring in the dictum expressed in this quotation, the jjostmen have 
 consistently striven to have the Post Office estalalishments overhauled by an 
 independent Committee of Inquiry — a Committee that could bring to bear 
 .1 fresh and unbiassed judgment on the matter at issue, ,
 
 THE CASES SUBMITTED BY NON-FEDERATION WITNESSES. 
 
 WILLIAM CHARLES HERBERT, of the E.C.D.O. 
 
 WE.tTMiNSTEE, 9th March, 189G. 
 
 William Charles Herbert was next called: — 
 
 The Chairman: I understand you are an E.C. postman? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. 
 
 Q. And you are not a member of tlie Association? 
 
 A. No. ^ 
 
 Q. You are going to speak to us from a rather different point of view, 
 are you not? 
 
 a" Yes, my lord ; with respect to wages and Christmas boxes. Before 
 proceeding with my stjitement on these subjects I desire to correct in one 
 point the statement I furnished, and to express regret for the occurrence 
 of a mistake. The error to which I refer was an assertion that the Federa- 
 tion has less than 100 members in the E.C. Branch, whereas I should 
 rather have said not more than 100 members. The E.C. postmen, in seeking 
 to supplement the evidence tendered by the representatives of the Postmen's 
 Federation, desire to exi^lain. that that body cannot be considered in anj' 
 sense a.s representative of postmen of the E.C.O., since the E.C. Branch 
 of the Federation has not more than 100 members, whereas there are 
 over 900 postmen in the E.C. Therefore they — the E.C. postmen 
 — feel they have a right to be heard in support of their own case, 
 and independently of the Postmen's Federation. The evidence they propose 
 to offer is as follows : — In re-sj^ectfully asking for an increase of the mini- 
 mum to 24s., and a maximum of 40s. by annual increments of 2s. per 
 week, they desira in the first place to protest against the comparisons that 
 have frequently been made of their pay and position as postmen with^ that 
 of certain other grades of labour outside the Post Office. 
 
 Q. That is exactly the same request as is made by the Federation. 
 
 A. Then I will pass that over. 
 
 Q. I do not see the good of your repeating what the Federation has 
 already said. 
 
 A. We contend that this class is most unfortunate. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Who do you represent? 
 
 A. I represent a large number of the senior men. 
 
 Q. Were you authorised by a meeting to give this evidence on their 
 behalf, or are you simply stating your own view? 
 
 A. I was authorised by a large number of those whose signatures are 
 appended to the memorial we handed in. They submit that such com- 
 parisons are most unfair, because none of those classes of labour referred to 
 demands of its entrants that searching inquiry into their past lives, char- 
 acter, education, and physical fitness that is exacted by a Ci"il Service 
 examination, and which postmen have to pass in order to attain to their 
 position. They also submit that no class of labour outside the Post Office 
 resembles in any respect the work they are called on to perform, demanding, 
 as it does, qualifications of the highest standard in the matter of energy, 
 accuracy, and discretion. Tliey therefore claim for their position and work 
 that it is of a special and most responsible kind, demanding a special and 
 superior wage. The postmen submit that in estimating the quality and 
 value of the work they perform it should be done by comparison with that 
 of other grades of the Service ; and they thinlc that the quality and value 
 of their work as E.C. postmen will not suffer by comparison with the quality
 
 Special Case for E.G. Postmen. 457 
 
 and value of the work performed by E.C. sorters ; for, while the work 
 of the sorters consists of London district sorting and the despatch of corres- 
 pondence to the respective districts, that of E.C. postmen embraces London 
 district sorting, and the sortation and disposal of the whole of the corres- 
 pondence for the City of London, without doubt the most important and 
 valuable that passes through the post. They also maintain that respon- 
 sibility should be considered in estimating the value of work performed, 
 and claim that postmen's work in the E.C. is in many I'espects more and in 
 no c;ise less responsible than sorters'. Li the case of sorters the most 
 responsible part of their duties consists in despatching "roads," the work of 
 which is to examine the correspondence to prevent any mis-sorts being sent, 
 although should any escaj)e their notice or through error be allowed to 
 pass, it is important to bear in mmd that such correspondence does not 
 pass beyond official protection and ratification. But in the case of postmen 
 of the E.C, who have to work at the highest j^ressure in sorting and 
 arranging correspondence for delivery to the public, should they by an over- 
 sight or misconception of an address inadvertently misdeliver a letter, there 
 is always the possibility of it falling into dishonest hands, and of its not 
 being recovered ; or, even .should it eventually reach its destination, of 
 complaint from the public, which brings in its train an amoimt of discredit 
 that reflects upon the whole of the Department ; hence the greater respon- 
 sibility and the necessity of absolute accuracy on the part of a postman 
 ia the discharge of this important portion of his duty, which in the case of 
 a sorter, although necessary, at least cannot be regarded as so miportant, 
 since delay is the worst that can happen as a result of an error on his part. 
 As further proving the resjjonsibility of postmen's work compared with 
 that of sorters, they — the postmen — would point out that sorters who deal 
 with ordmary correspondence have not to deal with registered letters, a class 
 of sorters being appointed for that purpose, who receive an allowance for 
 the extra responsibility considered to be incurred. But postmen have to 
 deal with both classes of correspondence, and in the city of London, where 
 the registered cori'espondence is very considerable, as well as valuable, it 
 not infrequently occurs that some postmen have to deal with 50 to 100 
 registered Jetters in addition to the ordinary correspondence at a single 
 delivery, and for which responsibility they receive no allowance whatever, 
 although, should they lose sight of one in the course of duty — and which 
 even the most scrupulous care will not always prevent — they are practically 
 put under arrest until it is found, or they have been able to satisfy the 
 Department that it has been genuinely lost. 
 
 Sb F. Mowatt: Put under arrest? 
 
 A. That is so. In the event of a postman losing a letter or being unable 
 to account for it, he is not allowed to leave the office. 
 
 Q. I suppo.se until he gives an explanation? 
 
 A. Until full inquiries have been made into the matter. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He is detained in the office while search is being made for 
 the letter? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That is dm-ing the day? 
 
 Mr. "Walpole : During his duty. 
 
 Witness : They would also urge that postmen incur great risk in the dischai'g* 
 of their duty, in support of which statement they would mention the cas6 
 of a man named Blake, formerly a letter-carrier in the E.C.D.O. Among 
 other correspondence he had a. register for delivery ; he obtained a signature 
 for it, and returned the receipt in the ordinary course. Some time after 
 the firm for whom it was intended complained that they had not received it. 
 Blake was oilled on to recognise the person to whom he had delivered it, 
 but, being imable to do so, was dismissed the Service on suspicion. Some 
 years after an employee at the firm was found to be dishonest, aad among
 
 458 W. C. Hehbert, E.C.D.O. 
 
 other things confessed to having stolen tliis register, hence the risk to which 
 po.stn:en are exposed in the discharge of their duties, and which cannot be 
 said to apply to any other grade of the Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Wlien did this occur? 
 
 A. This case occurred about 17 years ago — I think about 16 or 17 years 
 ago. 
 
 Q. Is it not rather prehistoric'.' 
 
 A. Perhaps. Nevertheless, it bears on the point tliat tlierc i.s a risk 
 and a serious risk in this particular respect. 
 
 Q. But it has not happened for 17 years? 
 
 Witness: Other reasons the E.G. postmen would advance in support of 
 their claim for an increased wage are that high rents and insufiicient accom- 
 irodation prevents them living within the district of their work, while as 
 a result of the early hour at which their duties commence, most of them 
 having to attend at 5 a.m., they are prevented from availing themselves of 
 the privilege of worlunen's tickets, in consequence of which their travelling 
 exi>enses are additionally heavy. Finally, tliey submit that the wages of 
 pcstmen have not advanced in proportion with other grades of tlie Service, 
 and that they hr.ve not had an erjuitable share in the several advances in 
 wages that have taken place in recent years. T!;ey would point out that 
 during the last 14 years the maximum wage of a Isfe class .sorter has increased 
 lis., that of a 2nd class sorter 15s., while that of a postman has only 
 advanced 4s. Such a disparity in the reward allotted these grades they 
 consider to be most imfair, because they feel that whatever increase has 
 occurred in the value and responsibility of work performed as a result of 
 the development and prosperity of the Service applies to postmen as much 
 as sorters, while the cost of living is as great to one class as the other. 
 Therefore, as a result of this statement of their case, the E.G. postmen 
 trust your Committee will see reasons to recognise the responsibility and im- 
 portance of their work, and in their recommendations advise the conces- 
 sion of their request, and by so doing place the postmen on a more 
 equitable footing with other grades of the Service. That is the statement 
 I had prepared to submit to this Committee. 
 
 The Chairman : I should like to say, Mr. Herbert, that the only use 
 which it seems to me to be is to prove how excellently well the Federation 
 have got up their case and presented it — (hear, hear) — as you have not told 
 us one single thing we have not had in evidence already. 
 
 Witness : I wish to add to that portion of the statement dealing with 
 registered letters that the Eastern Centi-al postmen feel very sore that 
 responsibility shoidd be recognised by an allowance being made to sorters 
 dealing with registered correspondence, while in their — the postmen's — case, 
 no account of it whatever is taken into consideration. They submit that the 
 responsibility and risk incurred in dealing with registered correspondence 
 is much greater in the case of postmen than sorters, because in most cases 
 the postman doesn't know the person whose signature he has obtained when 
 delivering a registered letter, or whether the signature is a correct one or 
 not ; but in the case of a sorter who receives an allowance, the Department 
 guarantee him a check about which there can be no question. In the state- 
 ment I have just read, it says some postmen have to deal with 50 to 100 
 registers at a smgle delivery. Perhaps I should modify that statement 
 somewhat, and say from 40 to 80. I have here a return of the number of 
 registered letters for 12 months delivered by an Eastern Central postman, 
 from which you will observe that in 289 deliveries he disposed of 31,178 
 registers ; but. let me add, he only dealt with registers on these particular 
 deliveries, nevertheless they had to be signed for and signatures obtained 
 from the public when distril)uting them, so that there was an immense 
 amount of risk and responsibility incurred, and altogether I don't think 
 it would be difficult to show that there is no district or town throughout
 
 Special Case for E.G. Postmen. 459 
 
 the country in which postmen deal with such a considerable amount 
 of registered corresi>ondence as in the city of London, and this is 
 one of the main reasons why we think our wages should be in- 
 creased. The arduous nature of our work is another reason we would 
 urge should be taken into consideration. I may say that a return of some 
 of the walks and the number of registered letters delivered in them was 
 taken this morning, with the following result : —Mincing Lane, 1st section, 
 18 registered letters ; 2nd section, 28 ; 3rd section, 24 ; 4th section, 53. 
 Comliill, 1st section, 14 ; 2nd section, 43; 3rd section, 50; 4th section, 
 46. Bishopsgate Street, 1st section, 32 ; 4tli section, 48 : 6th section, 
 14; and 7th section, 13. In Leadenliall Street there were 169 registered 
 letters taken out amongst the various sections. Li Old Broad Street the 
 1st section took out 22, 2ncl 77, 3rd 16, 4t]i 46, and 5th 41. Lothbury, 1st 
 section. 18; 2nd, 65; 3rd, 42; 4th, 40. I may now go on to give you the 
 particulars of Austin Friars. 
 
 The Chairman : I don't thmk you need go into all that. It stands to 
 reason that in the central business parts of the City you will find registered 
 letters for delivery more frequently than elsewhere. We woiild all agree 
 that that is the natural course of things. 
 
 A. I should like to state that in Lothbury last week a nian who had two 
 sacks of letters went out with 101 registered letters, and another man with 
 a sackful of letters had 90 registered, and bearing in mind that these 
 letters have all to be intermingled with their correspondence, you will at 
 once .see the amount of risk a postman runs from having to deal with these 
 registered letters. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, the complaints of the loss of registered letters 
 are exceedingly rare, are they not? 
 
 A. That is so, my lord ; and it shows the care which a postman takes in 
 discharging that very important part of his duty. In the Eastern Central 
 Office most of the postmen have to attend at 5 ai.m., and it is only by 
 working at the highest pressure that they can manage to cope with the 
 work or hope to get out with the 1st delivery in reasonable time. Then 
 they have very hea^^y loads to carry, in some instances amounting to from 
 50 to 70 or more pounds, but it is due to the Department to say that in the 
 case of the heavier loads when men are available assistance i.s given, but 
 unfortimately men are not always available, in which case the postmen have 
 to bear the burden of these loads themselves. We therefore submit that the 
 continuous early rising, high pressure when working, heavy load carrying- 
 combined with heavy stair work during the day, make our work very ex- 
 hausting, so much so that only the very fittest is able to survive it, and if 
 proof is needed of this, we subm.it it is to be found in the very small per- 
 centage of the E.C. postmen who survive the maximum of service required 
 before retiring on pension. 
 
 The Chairman : Is there not a rule as to your being able to receive 
 assistance if there is more than a certain weight to be carried? 
 
 A. Quite so ; and I have mentioned that it is due to the Department to 
 say that when men are available assistance is given. 
 
 Q. You are not giving us any figures in proof of your statement as to 
 the age postmen retire on pension. I suppose you have none? 
 
 A. I have not any figures, but I know, my' lord, that during the last 22 
 years only one postman has reached his maximum of service upon retire- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Is it not possible that some postmen have lieen promoted, 
 and have retired from the higher ranks as officers? 
 
 A. That may be so ; but I know of only one case, and he haxl not attained 
 a service of 40 j^ears on postman's duty. 
 
 Q. You think it rather hard line.s not to get promotioa before 40 years? 
 
 A. Quite so.
 
 460 . W. C. Herbert, E.C.D.O. 
 
 The Chairman: "^here are 900 men in your office? 
 
 A. 945, my lord. 
 
 Q. Gin you tell me how many men have died out of this number each 
 year during the last five years? 
 
 A. No, my lord, I cannot; but I can tell you that of those who liave 
 taken their pensions during the last five years a large percentage are young 
 men. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that they Avere killed off without Iwing able 
 to get a j)ension or anything else? 
 
 A. No, my lord. That was not my statement. I wished to point out 
 that very few survive their maximum service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then they must die? 
 
 A. That does not follow. They may have been obliged to take their 
 pension through ill-heilth before attaining their maximum of service, and 
 this is the result of the heavy work they have performed. 
 
 The Chairman : You do not contend that it kills, but you say it tires 
 them out early? 
 
 A. It incapacitates them from work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How long have you been at it? 
 
 A. 22 years. 
 
 Q. It has not tired you out yet? 
 
 A. No, sir. We also desire to draw attention to the fact that in most 
 cases l-5th of the time of E.C. postmen is occupied in primary sorting; 
 we wish it to be understood we do not complain of this, as we regard it as 
 tha easiest portion of our work ; only that we say it is properly sorters' 
 work, and as the scale of pay of sorters is considerably higher than that 
 of postmen, the fact that we perform this work we submit should be a reason 
 why our scale of pay should be higher. I come now to the question of 
 Christmas boxes, and I think you will acknowledge my authority to speak 
 on this matter when I tell you I am tlie secretary of a committee elected 
 by the walk-liolders of the city of London to represent their interest in 
 connection with this question, and as such I am mstructed to tell you that 
 the Postmen's Federation, in asking for the abolition of Christmas boxes, 
 do not express what is the desire of the city men on this matter. The 
 city postmen have not asked for the abolition of the boxes, and neither 
 would they be prepared to surrender them miless a full equivalent was given 
 to each man for what he would lose thereby, and to give them this would 
 necessitate an expenditure on tlie part of the Department of £4.600 a year 
 for the City alone. 
 
 The Chairman : I imagine that Christmas boxes in the City are very 
 heavy, are thev not? 
 
 A. Well -■' 
 
 Q. I want an answer to that question. 
 
 A. They are, my lord ; and I will deal presently with what it amounts to. 
 Q. Wait a moment. I think that this argum.ent of yours rather goes 
 against your earlier contention. You claim that the E.C. postmen should 
 receive much higher wages on account of their much harder work. Now, it 
 seems to me they already get higher wages, taking into consideration the 
 Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. Well, my lord • 
 
 Q. Ls not that so? 
 
 A. By that contention yoii are recognising Christmas boxes as wages. 
 Q. I am only asking at the present moment is it not the fact that E.C. 
 postmen are paid higher than any other postmen in London? 
 
 A. If we took that view we should admit that Christmas boxes are part 
 of our wages. We contend they are not. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Q. I do not say whether they are wages or not ; all I saj- is that the
 
 Special Case for E.G. Postmen. 461 
 
 position of the E.G. postman at this moment — taking all things into con- 
 sideration — is much better tlian that of another postman? 
 
 A. In some cases it is, my lord. Mr. Warner, in his evidence before this 
 Committee, said if the Department gave an immediate increase of 2s. per 
 week the men would be satisfied. I may tell you the city men would not be 
 satisfied, and that they regard such a statement as an effort on behalf of 
 those who are getting very little or nothing to reap an immediate benefit 
 at the expense of those who are getting something more substantial. What- 
 ever may be the objection or dislike of the district and other postmen to 
 collect Christmas boxes, it i.s not shared by the city postmen. In the City 
 it is the custom of firms to enter in a book, of which the cashiers have 
 charge, sums of money to be given for different purposes ; amongst these 
 are the postmen's Christmas box, which they esteem it a favour to give, 
 so that with the city postmen it is not a question of solicitation, but of 
 simply receiving what is offered. Again, it is largely the practice of city 
 postmen to leave unpaid correspondence and c-i.ll later on for the money ; 
 this they are under no official obligation to do, but they do it to save 
 delay to the firms — in many cases weekly, monthly, and quarterly credit 
 is given — so that what they receive at Christmas is rather a reward for 
 special services given than a Christmas box in the ordinary acceptation 
 of the term. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : When you say " unpaid correspondence," do you mean 
 correspondence which has not been stamped? 
 
 A. That is so, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : You said you were going to tell us presently how much 
 the.se Christmas boxes amounted to? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, and I have told you ; I have pointed out what it would 
 cost tlie Department to compensate us for the loss of them in the City alone. 
 
 Q. What are they worth to individual City postmen? That is what I 
 want to know. 
 
 A. Do you uiean those who collect them? 
 
 Q. Under what system are they distributed? 
 
 A. The system is this — The men on the walk collect them, and pay 20 
 per cent, upon what they collect towards the Assistants' Fund. The re- 
 mainder the walk-holders divide among themselves. 
 
 Q. Is that distributed over the whole number of men? 
 
 A. No ; only over the City men 
 
 Q. How many men have shares? 
 
 A. There are about 400 section walk-holders and 200 assistants. 
 
 Q. Then to compensate these 400 men you say it would cost £4,000 odd? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith: But what about the other 300 men? You told us there 
 were 900 City postmen? 
 
 A. Oh, they would be collectors and the floating staff. 
 
 Q. And they get nothing? 
 
 A. They get nothing. The floating staff, however, participate in the 
 assistants' share — the share of those who are i)erforming supernumerary 
 duties. 
 
 The Chairman : And do the other men share and share alike all through 
 the City? 
 
 A. No, my lord ; the men on each walk share what is gathered in after 
 deducting the amoimt paid to the Assistants' Fund. 
 
 Q. How many men on a walk are there as a rule? 
 
 A. They vary somewhat ; in some cases there are only four, and in 
 some cases there are six, and even eight. 
 
 Q. And then the difference between the different walks is very great, 
 is it not? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord, it is.
 
 462 W. C. Herbert, E.C.D.O. 
 
 Q. What is the most valuaVjle walk in the City? 
 
 A. Lombard Street; tliere they collect somewhere about £150. 
 
 Q. And between how many men is that divided? How many men are 
 there on that walk? 
 
 A. There are six men on that walk, and out of the amount they would 
 piiy 20 per cent, on £115 to the Assistmts' Fund. 
 
 5Ir. Walpole: Why do they only pay on £115? They collect £150? 
 
 The Chairman : I take it that they deduct 20 per cent. 
 
 A. No ; the circumstances are these — They collect £150, they deduct 
 25 per cent, for collecting, and then they jxiy 20 per cent, on ihe re- 
 mainder to the Assistants' Fund. 
 
 Q. What is the 25 per cent, collecting for? Who gets that? 
 
 A. The collectors, my lord. 
 
 Q. Then the men who go roun<l and collect the boxes get an extra 25 
 per cent.? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I may point out that in the event of the jwstman being away 
 ill, and the assistant doing his duty, he charges him 25 per cent, for collect- 
 ing it in for him. 
 
 Q. Then it comas out at an average of about £20 a man? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And the man who is fortunate enough to collect gets 25 
 per cent, on £150? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And £37 10s. would be the share for collecting? Is there more than 
 one collector? 
 
 A. The whole of the six men collect. 
 
 Q. Then, besides sharing up the net amount, they get 25 per cent, on the 
 collection ? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And they take 25 per cent, from the grand total before sharing witli 
 the assistants? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the result is that Lombard Street postmen receive a very large 
 sum in Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. Something like £20? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Don't you think, Mr. Herbert, that if the system of 
 Christmas boxes is to remain in force, the fair thing would be for all men 
 to receive an equal share? 
 
 A. Well, my lord, I cannot admit that, and for this reason, that we 
 look upon these walks as a kind of promotion. 
 
 Q. I do not wonder at it. 
 
 A. When we enter the Post Office we take these walks by seniority, and 
 as we get more senior we get a more valuable walk. 
 
 Mr. Smith : How many assistants are there on this Lombard Street 
 walk? 
 
 A. I think there are three. 
 
 Q. And these are in addition to the six? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman: But, after all, it seems to me that no very large sum 
 would be involved to give compensation to all the City men for the monev 
 collected for Christmas boxes in the City. You tell us there are 950 post- 
 men in the City, and that to those men the Department would have to pay 
 compensation for Christmas boxes to the extent of something like £4,000 
 odd. therefore that would be under £5 per man. That is to say, 2s. per 
 week woidd do away with the whole thing? 
 
 A. But then you ttouW be giving the 29. a week all round, and bv so
 
 Special Case for E.G. Postmen. 463 
 
 doing you woirid be simply paying the younger men at the expense of the 
 senior men. 
 
 Q. The young men would become senior men eventually, and you would 
 get the 2s. a week all round? 
 
 A. But that would not compensate us senior men, who have suffered 
 from tlie system in the past. 
 
 Q. But, after all, you have been reaping considerable advantages lately? 
 
 A. Quite so ; but it has taken me 22 years to attain my present position. 
 I shared £17, and if you took that away from me, and paid me only 2s. a 
 week in lieu of it, you would be taking away a considerable part of what 
 I contend I have earned by my service in the past. You will be giving 
 to the yomiger men who are just entering the Service all the advantages it 
 lias taken me these many years' service to earn, and you would be doing 
 it, not at the expense of the Department, but at my exjiense. 
 
 Q. I quite admit that from tliat point of view your contention is perfectly 
 reasonal)le, but I do no* say that it is a pntriotic one from tlie })oint of 
 view for the Service. Have you anything else to lay before us? 
 
 A. I should like to put in a return of some of the loads our men took 
 out this morning. 
 
 Q. Very well. 
 
 A. Taking the Mincing Lane walk. I find that in the first section the 
 bag weighed 50 lbs., and in the second section 80 lbs. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : 80 lbs. ? How far would the man have to carry it before 
 he got rid of some of it? 
 
 A. He would take it from the Greneral Post Office to Mincing Lane, a 
 walk of 15 or 20 minutes. On the third section the weight of the bag was 
 70 lbs. 
 
 Q. Was that man sent out with that alone? 
 
 A. We cannot obtain any information about that. 
 
 Q. But that is the import;int point. Cannot you say whether or not 
 the man had assistance? 
 
 A. I cannot. 
 
 The Chairman : Unless you tell us that the men had to carry this weight 
 unassisted I do not think you have any case? 
 
 A. I have already said tliat when men are available the Department give 
 assistance, but men are not always available, and in that case the men 
 have to carry the loads themselves. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You have taken considerable trouble to get a particular 
 return this morning, yet you cannot tell us whether assisttince was or was 
 not given with the heavy weights. 
 
 A. I may say that we were very pressed to get these returns this 
 morning ; we hardly had time for the purpose. 
 
 Q. But then there is no value given to the return, because a number 
 of men are set aside each morning to give assistance on these walks ? 
 
 A. The Deimrtment could sujjply the return. A number of men are no 
 doubt sent out e<ich day, and it will be quite possible for you to get the 
 information as to whether assistance was given on these particular walks. 
 
 Q. I did not know you were going to bring this matter forward, or I 
 would have had the information hei'e. 
 
 A. I liave some further instances. I will take the Billiter Square walk. 
 On the 1st section tlie weight was 60 lbs., on the 2nd section 65 lbs., on 
 the 3rd section 72 lbs., and on the 5th section 43 lbs. On the Cornhill 
 walk the weights were — 1st section 45 lbs., 2nd section 70 lbs., 3rd section 
 65 lbs., and 4th section 56 lbs. On the Bishopsgate walk the figures are — 
 Ist section 62 lbs., 4th section 84 lbs., 6th section 65 lbs. I suppose it 
 is not necessary to go througli any other returns ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If you will hand it to me, I will see liow many assistants 
 were sent out.
 
 464 W. C. Herbert, E.C.D.O. 
 
 A. With pleasure. 
 
 Q. Is that the whole question you wish to raise? 
 
 A. Yes ; if you will look at the paper you will see it represents the 
 number of registered packages carried, the weights of each bag, and the 
 number of bankers' bags made up by each postman. 
 
 Q. Does that finish your case? 
 
 A. It does, sir. 
 
 Q. I should just like to mention that I have looked into the pensions 
 granted last year, and have worked them out, and I find that 6 City post- 
 men were jjensioned last year, 3 of whom were below 50 years of age, and 
 of the other 3, 2 were 57, and the other one 61 years of age. It does not 
 look as if they were worn out. 
 
 A. What, were the ages of the first three? 
 
 Q. The first three were 45, 42, and 33 respectively. One who retired at 
 57 had done 39 years' service, the one who retired at 61 had 36 years' service, 
 and the other maa at 57 had 33 years' service. The man of 45 had 26 
 years' service, the one at 42, 25 years' service, and the one at 33, 16 years' 
 service. They were tlie whole of the P^.C. pensions granted last year. 
 
 A. And I think it will be seen from that that the average age is com- 
 paratively young. 
 
 Q. The average service is 29 years, and the average age is a little under 50. 
 
 A. Surely that is a very low age for men to be worn out to such extent 
 as to have to leave the Service? 
 
 Q. But three attained the comparatively respecta-ble age of 57. 
 
 A. But then there is the case of a man who was worn out after 16 years' 
 service. It is to be presumed he passed the medical examination when he 
 entered. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I do not know what the cause of his illness was. No 
 doubt he contracted some illness. 
 
 The witness then withdrew. 

 
 FRED. SMITH, of Liverpool. 
 
 Special Case for LivERrooL AllowaiNCe Men. 
 
 Westminstek, 9tli March, I8O0. 
 
 Fred. Smith was then called and examined. 
 
 The Chaii-mau : You are a Liverpool postman, I believe? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am a stamper. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : A Liverpool postman employed on stamping duties, is it 
 not? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I am not a postman, and never was. 
 
 Q. Were you never a jiostman? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : How did you enter the ofBce then ? 
 
 A. I was an auxiliary acting as messenger when I became established, 19 
 years ago. 
 
 Q. An auxiliary acting as messenger? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; and since I have been on the establishment I have 
 always been in the position of a stamper, bagman, messenger, or porter. I 
 may say in connection witli this matter that several of my colleagues in the 
 Liverpool Office are situated in a similar way. They held, I understand, 
 the position of 4th class clerks, and it shows a retrogression in their case, 
 as they have been designated postmen now for some years, although they do 
 duty as stampers and messengers. I believe that in official papers they 
 are designated as stampers and messengers. 
 
 Mr. Walpile: Surely that is not so, Mr. Smith? 
 
 A. Yes ; we are ^^signated as stampers and messengers in conjunction 
 with postmen. 
 
 Q. I have a copy of the Estimates here, and I see nothing of the kind. 
 
 A. It so appeared in my copy at Liverpool. 
 
 Q. Well, here is my copy, as you see. 
 
 A. Well, that is different from the copy I liad ; there distinctly the terms 
 "stampers, messengers, and postmen" were used. 
 
 The Chairman : You have come to speak on one or two points on which 
 certain of your colleagues disagree with the case already put forward by 
 the Federation. Is that not so? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so. I appear for the bagmen, hall porters, mail mes- 
 sengers, mail porters, stampers, and their substitutes. We desii-e this 
 opportunity to state briefly the reason that prompted us to submit a case 
 independent of the postmen. I beg also, my lord, to ask your jjermission 
 to mention in a few words four subjects, which we regard as unsatisfactory, 
 in the course of the statement I have to submit. First, the eastern hall 
 door from a messenger's point of view ; secondly, payment for Bank Holi- 
 day ; thirdly, a concession granted by Sir A. Blackwood to the Liverpool 
 staff in March, 1886 ; and fourthly, the possibility of injury caused by 
 heavy bags. We were strong in our belief that the position we hold in the 
 Service, the duties we perform, and the responsibility of those duties, entitle 
 us to a position on the establishment, similar to the position held by the 
 sorters in the London E.G. Office. On these grounds, the messengers, 
 stampers, etc., felt that our case would not receive that consideration which 
 we felt it demanded by being amalgamated with the postmen's. We have, 
 my lord, reviewed the evidence given by the postmen's representatives, 
 with a view of narrowing down the statement we wish to submit to the 
 narrowest possible limits. Before dealing with the details of our duties, 
 etc. , I desire to call attention to the persistent closing of the " Eastern 
 Hall Door," which was mentioned by Mr. Walsh in his evidence. The 
 messengers consider that in this matter they have an even greater grievance
 
 466 Fred. Smith, Liverpool. 
 
 than the postmen ; they regard the closing of this door as unnecessary and 
 unjust ; it entails on them additional walking and labour in order to des- 
 patch the mails. If it ^vere allowed to be open it would save them walking 
 200 or 300 yards. At Exchange Station the guard's van, when marshalled 
 at the north end of Exchange Station, cannot be reached without the greatest 
 difficulty should the despatch be made a few moments late ; the regulation 
 time does not permit the van being reached without a desperate struggle. 
 These struggles are of frequent occurrence, owing to the small margin 
 allowed to work off the correspondence, and in the opinion of the men 
 engaged on these duties, some modification of the existing rule may be 
 permitted by the hall porter not allowmg any officer to pass through not 
 authorised by the Postmaster. On the question of "payment for duty 
 performed on Bank Holidays," we wish to point out grievances connected 
 with the working of the existing rules, and I would ask that this Committee 
 recommend that payment be made for all times served on Bank Holidays. 
 An officer who performs 8 hours" duty on Bank Holiday is often compelled 
 to take a day off in lieu at the convenience of the Department. 
 
 Sir F. ^Mowatt : You ask for payment for duty performed on Bank Holi- 
 day? Ls that instead of having holiilays given you in lieu of Bank Holidays? 
 Do you wish to be paid instead of that ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think we should be paid for Bank Holidays. 
 
 Jlr. Walpole: Is that not what is done now? 
 
 A. Xo ; recently men have been instructed to take their time off in lieu 
 of Bank Holiday, and our grievance is that we have to do so at a time 
 when we have no place to go to. 
 
 Q. You say a man was recently in.structed to do that? 
 
 A. Yes, sir ; and we say that the punishment falb the more heavily 
 on the man according to the number of hours' duty he has to do. If he is 
 an eight-hours' duty man, he suffers more than a five-hours' duty man. 
 
 The Cliairman : This is very much like what we have had already. I 
 would rather like you to confine yourself to points which have not been put 
 before us, or on which you disagree with the views of the Federation. 
 
 Witness : I have one or two other points to lay before you. 
 
 Q. We only allowed you to give evidence at all because we supposed 
 there were certain points wliich you thought had not been put effectually 
 before us, and on which you differed from the Federation. Now, you are 
 going into points which have already been put before us by the Federation. 
 
 A. I understand the question of Bank Holidays has not been dealt with. 
 
 Q. It has been dealt with over and over again. 
 
 A. Well, I do not wish to press the point, my lord. I will only remark 
 that an officer who only performs 6 hours' duty receives the same con- 
 sideration as the officer who performs 8. And all officers performing less 
 than 6 hours' duty become entitled to payment. These arrangements, in 
 our opinion, are infringements of the concession, and we call for their 
 discontinuance. As regards promotion in the Postal Service, our oppor- 
 tunities are practically limited to an inspectorship of postmen, and a 
 second-class sorting clerkship in the major establishment. With reference 
 to the former, when a vacancy occurs, the one objection urged against our 
 application, and which militates against our success, is our inexperience of 
 postmen's duties, though we are classified with them, and only in one in- 
 stance during the last ten years has an applicant from our ranks been 
 successful. 
 
 The Chairman : Really, Mr. Smith, I must ask you to confine yourself to 
 the points upon which you do not agree with the Federation. I do not 
 want to go over these subjects again. I have given you a great deal of 
 latitude ; in fact, I have given a great deal more latitude to the postmen 
 than I ought to have done ; I must take steps to close the evidence. 
 
 A. My statement was greatly mutilated tnrough the correspondence with 
 Mr. Bruce. It m ill not take me niore than a few moments to read it.
 
 Special Case for Liverpool Allowance Men. 4G7 
 
 Q. I am glad Mr. Bruce has mutilated it. I simply consented to your 
 coming here to state the points on which you do not agree with the 
 Federation. 
 
 A. But there are points in connection with this that do not affect the post- 
 men in any way. 
 
 Q. I shall ftop you at once if I find you are going over ground which has 
 already been covered ; of course, I cannot say Vjeforehand if you are covering 
 old ground again. 
 
 A. I should like to be allowed to proceed. I should like to put in this 
 case on behalf of 70 men ; it is a burning question witli us. About two 
 years ago a vacancy arose for an inspector of postmen, for which I made 
 application. I was sent for by the chief clerk, wlio questioned me as 
 follows: — "How long have you been iii the Service? What experience 
 have you had in postmen's duties? How long were you a. postman?" Thi.s 
 conversation conveyed to my mind the idea tliat lack of knowledge in any 
 branch of postmen's duties would act against my success. I mention this 
 circumstance, not in tlie nature of a complaint, but to show how impossible 
 promotion from a stamper to an inspector of postmen is to officers situated 
 in the Postal Service as we are. As regards promotion to a sorting clerk- 
 ship, notwithstanding admitted ability to perform the duties of a sorting 
 clerk, we are precluded from taking advantage of the promotion through the 
 restrictions respecting the question of income. These lestrictions, which 
 prevent promotion to clerkships, are unprecedented in character and unjust 
 in their operation. A bagman, stamper, hall porter, or mail messenger, 
 havmg arrivetl at his maximum rate of wages, Avitli three good conduct 
 stripes, would suffer a reduction of 8s. or 9s. per week in his income on 
 promotion to a clerkship. I think it will be seen that exemplary service 
 of 15 or 20 years in this particular branch of the Civil Service stands out 
 as a beacon of blighted hope to the stampers, bagmen, mail messengers, 
 etc.. employed on indoor duties at Liverpool. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That statement of yours is not accurate. The men carry 
 with them their allowances on their promotion to clerkships. 
 
 A. No, sir, they do not carry with them. I, myself, would lose 8s. a 
 week on promotion to a clerksliip. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think you are ■?\Tong. 
 
 A. I think not, sir. 
 
 vSir F. Mowatt : Do you not carry your stripes with you ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; we are not allowed to carry any of them. 
 
 The Oliairman : Have you any stripes? 
 
 A. I have three stripes, my lord. 
 
 Q. Then if you have stripes how on earth do you contend that you are 
 not a postman? 
 
 A. My contention is that I have never done a delivery since I entered 
 the Service. 
 
 Q. Are not strip?s an essential distinction of postmen? Are they not 
 given as a badge of honour and reward to postmen alone? 
 
 A. We are classed as postmen, but we do not do postmen's work. 
 
 Q. You are postmen employed on indoor duty ; that is what you are. 
 
 A. You might as well call a common brick "a plum-pudding.' (Laughter.) 
 I have never done a delivery during the 19 years I have been "in tlie Service. 
 
 Q. Would you state that a postman employed on sorting work is not a 
 postman? 
 
 A. They are different altogether. They do postmen's* woi-k. which is 
 indoor work; we do indoor work which is "not postmen's work. 
 
 Q. Still, you are postmen for all practical purposes? 
 
 A. I do not agree with that, my lord. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: You wear a postman's uniform? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 The Chairman: You really mean, then, that though you are classified
 
 468 Fred. Smith, Liverpool. 
 
 as postmen by the Department you want the Department to set up another 
 class to cover your case? 
 
 A. My statement will lead up to that. 
 
 Q. Then it is a pity to begin by trying to make out that you are another 
 class. 
 
 A. I was putting my personal case forward when you put the question to 
 me, and I said I was not a pastman, for tlie simple reason that I had never 
 done postman's work since 1 got on the estiiblisliment. 
 
 Q. If your contention that you are not a postman is correct, then your 
 demand that a sepirate class shall be set up falls to the ground, V^ecause, 
 accordin<r to your version, you are already a separate class: but if you start 
 on the ground tliat you are a postman and are not satisfied, but want to be 
 made into a separate class, then you have something to go on in putting 
 forward your case. 
 
 A. I am prepared to submit that though we are recognised as postmen by 
 the Department, our duties are not identical in any way with those of 
 postmen. If the aV)ove limitations and restrictions could be removed, or the 
 formation of a sei)arate class for the above-named, it would open out to all 
 postmen the advantage of 70 promotions in Liverpool, wldch they do not 
 at present enjoy, therebv reducing tlieir grievances under that head to a 
 minimum. In support ol this, our claim for a new classification, we would 
 enumerate the nature of onr duties, which differ materially from those of 
 postmen : — 
 
 1. Bagmen regidate and deal with all inland mail bags for the inward 
 and outward d&spatclies, numbering about 29,000 per week ; they also per- 
 form the dutj' of stencilling mail bags, a most important one, necessitating 
 perfect reliability oi' the part of those officers. They are also cliarged with 
 the examination and oversigiit of all mail bags, withdrawing those which 
 are worn out, and replacing t'leni with new ones, and are alone responsible 
 for the supply and maintenance of the stock of bags ; thereby the Depart- 
 ment Ls saved the cost of supervision, which is entailed at other large offices, 
 to keep this branch of their work in a state of efficiency. 
 
 2. ^fail messengers and mail porters regulate at railway stations the 
 arrival and despatch of all mails. In connection with the' regulating of 
 mails, I would ask this Committee to recomhiend the discontinuance of 
 heavy .sacking. The rule is that no sack, when made up. should exceed 
 80 lbs. in weight. We contend that 80 lbs. entail too great a strain on 
 one man's body to lift alone, which we very often have to do. I have seen 
 men stagger and faint \mder the weight of some of the sacks and bags 
 which arrive at the Liverpool Office. Officers have been compelled to retire 
 from the Service through hemorrliage, in some cases resulting in death, 
 caused, in my opinion, in no small degree by this abuse. The Committee 
 will not doubt my statement when I inform them that the Controller of 
 Stamps sends out stock in bags over 90 lbs. in weight daily. The railway 
 post offices are the chief offenders in this re.«:pect. A case in point^I weighed 
 bags from 130 to 150 lbs. arriving at Liverpool on the 25th of February, 
 in transit from the Continent to the L'nited States. I may say in connection 
 with this that some years ago the chief clerk at Liverpool took steps to 
 modify these weights, and he was successful for a short time, but we have 
 now reverted to the old system. We ask the Committee to recommend that 
 under no circumstances shall any sack exceed 60 lbs. in weight, and mail 
 bag 50 lbs. And whenever it is found that a mail bag. which in due 
 course should be enclosed in a sack, and that it exceeds 40 lbs. in weight, 
 that bag should be sent outside. I may say, my lord, that from the rail- 
 way travelling post offices on the London and Xorth-Westem Railway, the 
 weight of the bags coming into our offices is often over 120 lbs. ; and I 
 have seen some bags from the Caledonian Railway which have taken three 
 men to lift out of the van. Now, there are not men available at all times
 
 Special Case for Liverpool Allowance Men. 469 
 
 to give this assistance, and therefore much more labour and greater hard- 
 ship is entailed on the men when they have to lift these heavy bags. In 
 our opinion this would alleviate much suffering and unnecessary pain, not 
 only amongst those engaged on these duties in our own service — it would 
 hi a surprising and unlooked-for relief conferred on a Ijody of railway 
 employees already overworked. About 2 000 mail bags per day are dealt 
 with by the messengers without any supervision, and they also despatch 
 important late fee correspondence, posted in the late fee box at the railway 
 station, and deal with registered letters "posted out of course," and paid 
 late fee in precisely the same manner as is done by first and second-class 
 sorting clerks at head office. They take charge of American and African 
 mails, and transfer them to the proper authority on board siiip, checking 
 with the mail officer before receiving a receipt ; they inquire into and report 
 at head office all late arrivals of mails. Travelling duties of the greatest 
 importance are performed by mail messengers taking charge of the night 
 mails, transferring and disposing en route. 1 should like to place before 
 this Committee a few details concerning their day and night duties : — 
 
 1. Day duty. — Clear late fee box at 9.45 a.m., 11.5 a.m., 12 noon, and 
 2 p.m. Examine and sort out the late fee letters for London and the 
 Continent; enter all registered letters "pasted out of course," on the letter 
 bill, and also express letters. Sign the letter bill and enclose in late-fee 
 bag witli the correspondence before despatching by train. They also des- 
 patcli important correspondence paid late fee for the United States and 
 Canada on the days of sailing. Duties such as I iiave mentioned, to a great 
 commercial city like Liverpool, whose interests are in constant touch with 
 every Continent where commerce is known, are of grave importance to the 
 community. 
 
 2. Night duty. — Early morning papers brought to the station from the 
 various newspaper offices are examined, sorted, made up, and iksp^itched in 
 bags for tlie North of England and Scotland. This important duty was 
 fornicrly performed under the supervision of a clerk. The mail messengers 
 have now the whole responsibility of this duty resting upon themselves. 
 
 3. Travelling duties. — In sole charge of night mails for London, South 
 Wales, and Yorkshire maik to Warrington. Transfer to limited mail Lon- 
 don and South mails. Receive from limited mail North for Yorkshire. At 
 Stockport transfer Yorkshire mails to Bristol, Shrewsbury, and Normanton 
 T.P.O., and assist in mail tender to Stalybridge and Normanton — the return 
 journey made on the following day Wing of the same character. 
 
 4. They are also called upon at times to take charge of heavy American mails 
 to London, Chester, and Holyhead. The above important and responsible 
 duties are performed without incurring tlic cost of a penny in supervision ; 
 for the Committee will note that when a miil messenger or porter leaves 
 the office in charge of a mail, he alone is responsible for its safe disposal. 
 
 5. Stampers face and stamp all correspondence posted at the head office, 
 and at the Exchange Brancli Office : they also tie and seal all outward mail 
 bags, a <luty which requires careful attention and involves considerable 
 danger and risks to the contents of a mail in transit, should any of the 
 6,000 hags per week be overlooked. During the week ending January 25th, 
 1896, the total number of let'ers, etc., stamped by the st.ampers*in the 
 circulation branch with the outward date stamp was about 900,000, which, 
 allowing Id. per missive, would mean the perfect effacement of postage 
 stamps to the amount of £3,750. The responsibility of cancelling £3,750 
 of postage labels effectually is a matter of great seriousness in these days 
 of sharp practices, for if the labels are not properly defaced it encourages 
 fraudulent persons re-using them. In addition, large numbers of circulars 
 are frequently received prepaid in cash. In October, 1894, the numbers 
 were 1,193,864; in October, 1895, 1,343,600. In connection with the 
 posting of large numbers of circulars, we ask for greater consideration in 
 disposing of them. At present, no matter what numbers happen to be
 
 470 Fred. Smith, Liverpool. 
 
 posted, they are disposed of by the stafif, who. under ordinary circumstances, 
 work at iiigh pressure. Tlie principle adopted by the late Postmaster was 
 one of no overtime under any circumstances. This principle, we contend, 
 frequently led to the overworking of the staff. The continued concentration 
 of the eye and mind in the performance of this duty must seriously affect 
 the organs of the body. They also stamp all inward correspondence — about 
 1,000,000 per week — and are responsible for such legible and clear impres- 
 sions of dates, etc., in stamping that will account for any mis-sent or 
 delayed correspondence. Should the st;imper fail in this particular part of 
 his duty, serious inconvenience to the Service and the pulilic would neces- 
 sarily follow. Foreign ofHce work stampers and mes.sengers in the packet 
 oflic© stencil and prepare all foreign mail bags, .stamp all inward and foreign 
 direct mails, sort all ncwsp.ijiers, books, circulars, and important commercial 
 papers for all the most imporfcint cities (and their divisions) in the United 
 States and Canada (also its dependencies). South America. Newfoundland. 
 Bermuda. Havana, Mexico, West and South-West Africa ; weigh and 
 check the weight of these mails ; tie and seal the bags (the average weekly 
 numbers for the United States and Canada are about 250). From an official 
 return for the month of January. 1896, the number of bags sorted and made 
 up and despatched by stampers in the foreign office was about 2.065, and 
 the weight 112,050 lbs. They also sort all newspapers, books, etc., for the 
 Continent prior to the despatch to London. This correspondence is made 
 up in sepjirate bags, such as Indian. Australian, Colonial, and Continental, 
 the average weekly number of bags forwarded are between 80 and 90 : we 
 also convey ship-letter mails to their respective offices or place of em- 
 barkation ; make inquiry and obtain the requisite information respecting 
 the sailing, arrival, etc., of all United States and other mails. I desire, 
 on behalf of this part of our duties, to say that this work has been per- 
 formed by the stampers and messengers with the greatest care and satisfac- 
 tion for over 30 years, with the greatest advantage to the Service. 
 
 The Cliairman : You do not wish to cease performing these duties, do 
 you? 
 
 A. Xo, my lord, but an effort was made by a previous witness to take 
 them from us. We consider that they are our duties, and we wish to draw 
 attention to the satisfactory way in which we have done the work in order 
 that we may still be allowed to do it. A great effort is being made at 
 present to deprive us of them. 
 
 Q. On the contrary, the evidence put forward on behalf of the postmen 
 was rather to hold up the employment of postmen on indoor work at 
 Liverpool as an example of what ought to be done in many instances in 
 many other parts of the country. 
 
 A. I am referring to the position taken up by Mr. Lascelles. He ap- 
 peared for the clerks, who are making a desperate effort to take all the 
 sorting work. 
 
 Q. And that point has already been dealt with. The postmen dealt 
 with the very self-same subject, and proposed that the retention of this 
 work in the hands of the indoor men at Liverpool was an exception to the 
 system. 
 
 A. They were referring to what the postmen did. That is quite distinct 
 from what we do. 
 
 Q. They referred to the very things that you do. 
 
 A. Well. I shall only occupy a few moments. On the arrival of unsorted 
 American mails, all the before-mentioned officers (1, 2. 3, 4) are frequently 
 called upon at all hours of the day and night to assist in their disposal, 
 regulating the transferring of the London and forward portion, and sorting 
 both letters and newspapers brought to this office, wir^hdrawiag correspon- 
 dence subject to a tax through insufficient postage (a similar course is 
 often taken with reference to posting, etc., of inland correspondence). The 
 .?sal shown by the stampers in this respect frequently prevents surchargeo
 
 Special Case for Liverpool Allowance Men. 471 
 
 of a large amount escaping detection. To verify my statement, I may 
 mention that during the late chief clei-k's term of office monthly returns 
 were prepared sliowing the amount of over-weight correspondence detected 
 by each member of the staff ; reference to these rturns will corroborate my 
 statement. As an instance just recent h', several hundred books were posted 
 by W. P. Hartley, Es(|., of Aintree. The interest shown by the stampers 
 in the direction I have spoken of was again manifested. On this occasion 
 these books, tlu'ough a stamper, were found to be underpaid. In urging 
 Oil the Committee the desirability of an extension of leave of absence from 
 two to three weeks, we may say that the medical officers expressed great 
 astonishment when they became aware that the bagmen, hall porters, mail 
 messengers, mail porters, stampers, and their substitutes, who perform so 
 much night duty, partial night, divided and irregular attendances, were not 
 entitled to three weeks' annual leave. The Committee would better imder- 
 stand the nature of our duties by the perusal of this attendance-sheet. I 
 beg to remind the Committee that postmen employed at health resorts 
 throughout the United Kmgdom, and not in any way subjected to the same 
 confinement, irregulai* attendances, and unhealthy atmospheres, are allowed 
 precisely the same facilities for recuperation as we are. In order that the 
 Committee may understand the irregular attendances and duties we are 
 subjected to, I may mention that on the 23rd of Februaiy, 1896, the 
 Cunard steamship " Aurania " arrived at Liverpool with over 500 sacks of 
 mails. The disposal of these mails necessitated attendance for duty at 
 11 a.m., being detained until after 6 p.m. The Conunittee will probably note 
 that an attendance of this kind would deprive us of the only day we look 
 forward to, to spend with our families and friends. It also deprived many 
 officers, who were summoned that day, from both dinner and tea at the 
 regular times. I, myself, had practically nothing between breakfast-time 
 and the time I reached home at night. On the last occasion that this boat 
 arrived at Liverpool we were ordered by special messengers at 5 p.m. to 
 attend at 9 p.m., and then being detained until after midnight. I would 
 also like to mention a more recent case. On Saturday, February 29th, the 
 Royal Mail steamer " Etruria " arrived at Liverpool with 900 odd bags. 
 To meet the pressure caused by the extra work, officers were sunmioned for 
 duty about 9.30 a.m., having previouslj^ gone off duty at midnight, not 
 arriving home again until after midnight. The Committee will note that 
 on that occasion a number of the men were on duty about 23 hours out of 
 32. Friday, February 28th, on duty 4 p.m. to midnight, reaching home 
 just before 1 a.m. Saturday morning. Left home in answer to a summons 
 at 10 a.m., arriving home again just before 1 a.m. on Sunday morning. 
 For such inconveniences as these we are rewarded by the payment of our 
 ordinary overtime rate, whilst officers employed on Sunday duty in the 
 London Office receive double pay. The arrival of these mails being regarded 
 as exceptional work, we consider that we ought to receive a correspon- 
 ding remuneration by being paid the double rate. In addition to the 
 arrival of unsorted mails, I desire to mention the concession gi'anted to the 
 Liverpool sfciff in March, 1886, and withdrawn bv the late Postmaster in 
 1895. 
 
 Extract from Order Book, dated 1886. 
 
 '■ The Postmaster has much satisfaction in announcing that the Secretary 
 has been pleased to express his willingness to regard the duty done at this 
 office on Sunday in connection with the disposal of unsorted American mails 
 as constituting a claim for special payment ; and also as regards the duty 
 done on Saturdays, to concede that after 9 p.m. the ordinary foreign mail 
 duty of the day shall be considered ended, and that any such duty done after 
 that hour shall be speciallv paid for." 
 
 (Signed) J. D. Rich. 
 
 March 9th, 1896.
 
 472 Fred. Smith, Liverpool. 
 
 Extract from Order Book, dated 1895. 
 
 "With reference to the Postmaster's minuto. dated 9th March, 1886, at 
 page 112 of Order Book, it is pointed out that the privilege therein an- 
 nounced of overtime payment on Sundays, and after 9 p.m. on Siiturdays 
 in connection with the arrival of unsorted American mails was annulled by 
 the revision of 1890, and as a consequence no claim for overtime payment 
 on week-days can be allowed to clerks, sorting clerks, etc., until a full 
 day's duty of 8 hours has been performed." 
 
 (Signed) W. R. 
 
 7th March, 1895. 
 
 The foregoing are copies of orders issued to the Liverpool staff in 1886 
 and 1895 respectively. The concession announced in the first order was the 
 result of a petition to the Secretary, whose attention was directed to the 
 peculiar circum.stances under which the Liverpool officers were frequently 
 deprived of a partial holiday on Saturdays owing to the arrival of American 
 mails. As no other office was subject to a similar disadvantage, the Secre- 
 tary considerately decided that payment should be given for all time in- 
 curred in disposing of imsorted mails on Sundays or after 9 p.m. on Satur- 
 days. In the second order it is urged that the concession was annulled by 
 the revision of 1890. But it is difficult to see that the concession is in 
 any way minmiised by the revision. The revision extends the application 
 of Simday pajnnent to all Sunday work, but the subject of Saturday over- 
 time remains unaffected. When the revision was announced, no reference 
 was made to the concession, and it was not until five years had elapsed 
 that the concession was discovered to have been annulled. If, however, 
 the privilege really is annulled by the revision, we beg to point out that the 
 circumstances under which it was granted have not altered, that we are 
 still deprived of partial relief on Saturdays when American mails arrive, 
 and that the same reasons exist now as existed in March, 1886, for giving 
 exceptional treatment to the Liverpool Oifice. We also beg to point out 
 that the privilege was granted by the^ Secretary, but the order, dated 7th 
 March, 1895, apjjears to have been issued by the Postmaster without the 
 Secretary's authority. I hope this Committee will take this matter up. 
 It is a great hardship for us at Liverpool that, after dealing with the heavy 
 work on Saturdays, we should be deprived of our half-holiday. Saturday 
 is the heaviest day in the week, and some Saturdays we have to work 
 desperately hard in order to get a few hours relief. Yet, by the arrival 
 of these mails, we are deprived of that relief. I wish to bring under the 
 notice of the Committee the allowance question and the application, the 
 great disparity-, and the unsatisfactory working of the principle. It admits 
 injustice and hardship to those men whose duties are identical, whose res- 
 ponsibilities are similar, and whose conduct is good. Instances can be 
 sta,lad where an officer receives a less allowance than men jimior in service, 
 which these men view as a grievance. The late Mr. Fawcett stated that the 
 allowance received by those men performing indoor duties was equivalent 
 to the loss sustained in not receiving Christmas gifts. Later, in the House 
 of Commons, Sir Jame.s Fergusson said tliat the allowance was given for 
 duties not performed by postmen. It is refreshing to note the reformed 
 tendency exhibited through Sir James by the Department since the days 
 of Mr. Fawcett. The estimation of our duties shows conclusively that our 
 demand for equal treatment for all oflicers performing indoor duties is 
 reasonable, and in accordance with official declaration, and we ask the 
 Committee to recommend the restoration of equal rights to all indoor men. 
 In asking for the maximum of 50s. jjer week, we beg to submit the following 
 reasons : — 
 
 1. That the nature and responsibilities of our duties, which are at present 
 acknowledged by an allowance, entitles us to a higher remuneration.
 
 Special Case for Liverpool Allowance Men. 
 
 473 
 
 2. Owing to the enforced confinement when on duty, it becomes neces- 
 sary to reside at some distance from the office, where health and respecta- 
 bility may be obtained, and which our present income will not reasonably 
 permit. 
 
 3. That the commodities and necessaries of life are exceptionally dear, 
 and that our present iacome will not permit of our obtaining the quality 
 and class of things essential to nourish and strengthen our bodies, which 
 are so much reduced by the nature of the arduous and r&sponsible nature 
 of our duties, approximating to. if not identical with, those of 1st and 2nd 
 class sorting clerks, we trust that the claims set forth — 
 
 (a) The formation of a new class different from postmen. 
 
 (b) The extension of our annual leave to three weeks. 
 
 (c) That an increas'^d pay on the basis of the scheme sugrgestfd in our first 
 petition may receive the Committee's favourable consideration. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You ask for a maximum of 50s. per week? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 The Chairman : Tlien you differ from most witnesses whom we have hatl 
 before us as to the abolition of classification and the simplification of the 
 various classes in the Post Office? You wish, in fact, to add one more 
 class to the existing classes in the Post Office? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord ; we conceive that t''e abolition of classification would 
 benefit materially a lar^c number eniploj^ed in the Service. No doubt 
 it would benefit the younger men, but the men whos? ages rank from 35 
 to 45 M'ill receive no benefit at all from the abolition of the clas.ses. 
 
 The Chairman : Thank you. The witness then withdrew, and the Com- 
 mittee adjourned for luncheon. 

 
 Mr. TJORAN. of T)ul>liii. 
 
 The Dublin Case. 
 
 Westminster, 9th March, 1896. 
 
 Mr. Doran (Dublin) was the final witness willed this day. 
 
 The CI. ail man: I am afraid I must ask you to he as brief as you pos- 
 sibly can. 
 
 Witness : I have coadensed my statement as muoli as I pos.sibly could. 
 I am satisfied with the way in which the case has been presented, except 
 on two or three points. 
 
 The Chairman : Deal with those points, then. 
 
 Witiiess : One of those points is that no mention is made of the fact that 
 Dublin has no town sorting post-nen or stampers, and I wish to say a little 
 on that. 
 
 The Chairman : You, like Mr. Smith, want some men put on a new scale 
 or class? • 
 
 Mr. Walpoole : Do vou mean that stamping is not done bv postmen in 
 Dublin? 
 
 A. I :iade a mistake there. There are four stampers, whereas ten are 
 reuuired. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith: And who does t.he rest of the stamping? 
 
 A. Second-class sorters, etc. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Second-class sorters doing stamping? Are you certain 
 of that? 
 
 A. Yes ; I can give instances which will show that. 
 
 The Chairman: You are an outdoor postman yourself? 
 
 A. Yes, my lord. I will give you instances showing the number of 
 stampers employed at various times of the day, and that will show that 
 four is not a. sufficient number of established stampers. From 4.30 to 5.20, 
 17 ; from 5.20 to 8.30, 9 : from 10.40 till 2, 11 : from 4 till 5.15, 19 ; and 
 from 5.15 to 7 p.m.. 28. This is the number of stampers employed at 
 different times of tlie day, while the number of postmen stamper.s is only 4. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The others are auxiliaries, ara they not? 
 
 A. Jfo, sir ; they are all classes of sorters, so far as I know. In fact, the 
 head stamper at Dublin is a first-class sorter at 56s. a week. The stamping 
 in other places is done by postmen, but I think I had better take that in 
 my statement. But before proceedmg to that, I have been asked to say a 
 word or two on the question of the dual certificate. In regard to that, the 
 Dublin men seeni to have been treated differently from the London men. 
 In placing the case of the Dublin, dual certificate men before you, I refer 
 to th.ose who between 1885 and 1887 succeeded in obtaining tlie certificate 
 qualifying them for the positions of postmen and sorters. Wlien appointed 
 they were placed on duty as postmen (they, prior to appointment, occupied 
 th3 position of auxiliaiy postmen), but understood as vacancies occurred 
 they would be drafted on to the sorting staff. This not having been realised 
 up to the end of the year 1893, except in the case of about five men, the 
 remainder drew up a petition praying for a. transfer, and having pr&sented 
 it to the superior officer, after some time were informed that their request 
 could not be granted, the statement being made that the holding of a dual
 
 The Dublin Case. 475 
 
 certificate did not sufSce for a sorting clerkship, a direct contradiction to 
 their action in placmg the aforesaid five men on sorting duties. Besides, 
 the London and Edinburgh men of the same class were officially invited 
 to accept transfer to the sorting stalf, whereas the men in Dublin have no 
 knowledge of any written intimation, nor were they ever verbally invited 
 to accept transfer. What they now contend is that the privilege of becom- 
 ing sorting clerks should be granted them, for had they been notified, as 
 they believe the men in London and Edinburgh were, they would have 
 availed themselves of the opportunity. Now, I will take the case of the 
 Dublin established postmen. There are, as I have already said, but four 
 stamping postmen employed in ^. ()., although there is au:p!e work for 
 12 stampers. The stiunpmg is principally done by sorting clerks, who are 
 taken from the roads and primary sorting to do this v.'ork. The head 
 stumper's duty is performed by a first-class sorting clerk at 56s. per week. 
 When he is on leav^e his duties are performed by the senior stamper, but 
 no allowance is made. We ask that the staff be increased to the above num- 
 ber. In 1892, Mr. Morley stated, in answer to a memorial, that he was 
 inclined to grant local town sorting, but would first give the matter his 
 careful consideration, with a view of ascertaining if it would be practical in 
 Dublin. Application was again made six months later, and Mr. Morley 
 replied that he was still considering the matter. Since that time nothing 
 has been heard of it. Considering that postmen from their knowledge of 
 the city and district are fully qualified for this duty, that their employment 
 at this work would have meaat a saving to the Department, and that this 
 duty is being performed by postmen in all the other large towns, it is 
 hard to see any justifiable cause for denying it to Dublin. About the time 
 of the above-mentioned petition, and for some time previously, the primary 
 sorting of newspapers and letter-packets for the night mails was being done 
 by postn.en. Some time after this practice was discontinued, and the 
 postmen put to the facing table. This may have been a coincidence, but 
 the belief among the postmen was, that it was done for the purpose of 
 preventing them from making any claim to the S.O. on that ground. In 
 detei mining the minimum wage it must not be forgotten that auxiliaries are 
 much longer in reaching a full-time duty than in London or Glasgow. Even 
 with increased facilities of promotion, none of the present auxiliaries can 
 hope to obtain their appointment before reaching 25 years of age, so that 
 five years hence the wages of a postman of that age would vary considerably 
 in different towns. For instance, in London he would he paid 34s., in 
 Glasgow 30s., and in Dublin 20s. This difference would he altogether 
 unjustifiable. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How do you mean 34s. in London? 
 
 A. After five years' service, because the postman is appointed at 19 
 years of age. 
 
 Q. They get 24s. in five years? 
 
 A. No. They get 24s. at starting at 19 years of age, and they will get 
 34s. in London at 25 years of age ; that is, supposing those increases be 
 granted. 
 
 Q. But you are supposing something that has not occurred? 
 
 A. But even a shilling makes a difference — the difference would then be 
 5s. instead of 10s. 
 
 Q. I can understand that if you get appointed at a later age you get 
 somewhat slower to your maximum salary than the ma,n appointed at an 
 early age ; that is all your argument comes to. 
 
 A. That is all I am contending for. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Well, I will admit that. 
 
 Witness : House rents in Dublin are second only to those of London. 
 Rates and taxes are 10s. 6:1. in the £1, and tenements are consequently very 
 dear.
 
 476 Mr. DoRAN, Dublin. 
 
 The Chairman: What does that include? 
 
 Witness : Tliat is the total of what is paid by the householder in the 
 poundage of his tenement. I have taken it from the P.O. Directory. It 
 includes police tax, and all these things put together. 
 
 The Chau-man : Water rate and gas rate? 
 
 Witness : Yes ; it includes all that. A drawing-room in a respectable 
 house will cost at least 4s. 6d., and one room is not sufficient to accommo- 
 date a family, if decency and health are considered. Consequently, a man 
 must pay at least 5s. 6d. for a small three-roomed cottage, or a pair of 
 rooms in a tenement. If these sums are deducted from 20s. or 22s., tlie 
 margin for living is rather small. If a Dublin postman is an hour late, 
 he is sent off duty, and must pa\- a substitute. He is then reported and 
 I'.uist work the time lost, although there is proliably no loss to the Depart- 
 ment, considering that the work has been done, and the substitute paid. 
 This counts in the annual total against his increment, and possibly 
 against his stripe. This rule is of recent introduction, and the men fear 
 that should they be late on two other occasioas in tlie same month, the 
 first-mentioneil offence may be added so as to render them liable to a further 
 extra duty. Postmen from district offices must do these extra duties at 
 the Central Office, and as they are almost all employed on four duties daily, 
 and have therefore very little spare time, their punishment is more severe, 
 for to their two hours is added a possible two iiii'cs' walk to the Q.P.O., 
 and the same in returning. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What is the rule as to late attendances? Is it a recent 
 instruction ? 
 
 A. The rule is, I am informed, that a man must pay his substitute, and 
 afterwards work in the time lost. It is also asked that we be supplied 
 with a book of rules defining our various duties, such as we imderstand is 
 supplied to other offices, as the rules supplied to us under local authority 
 are insufficient, and we may at any moment be called upon to explain our 
 conduct in matters where we had no rule to guide us. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You have the ordinary book of postmen's rules, have you 
 not? 
 
 A. I never saw it. It is a local book we get supplied with. 
 
 Q. But have you not also the postmen's book of rules? 
 
 A. I never saw it. It is also asked that documents relating to irregu- 
 larities be accessible to postmen, before giving explanation. We complain 
 of being sent to perform labourers' duty in the unloading of mails. Our 
 uniforms are not fitted for such work, the men appointed for it being 
 supplied with linen overalls. We come on duty clean, and are compelled 
 to go out on duty dirty through the performing of this work. It does not 
 happen often, but we ask that it be prohibited. In Dublin no established 
 postman finishes his day's work inside of 13 hours, and three-fourths of the 
 duties extend from 14 to 15 hours. In the districts matters are much worse 
 than in the Central Office. They must attend in almost all cases four 
 times daily, and their duties extend over 15 hours, beginning at 6.30 a.m., 
 and finishing as late as 9.40 p.m. The English mail arrives at G.P.O., 
 Dublin, about 5.30 p.m., and is not sent out for delivery until 7.10 p.m. 
 in the to^vn, and 7.30 p.m. in the districts. It could be sent out by a 
 6 p.m. delivery from the latter, by which could also be delivered the corres- 
 pondence collected at 4.15 p.m. This would be of great benefit to the 
 public, would admit of the postmen at district offices having an early week 
 in turn (the duties being made interchangeable), and would enable the men 
 oji the 7.30 p.m. delivery to finish earlier. The same results could be 
 obtained in the Central Office by keeping back the 5.30 p.m. delivery until 
 6 j).m., and sending out two men on that delivery instead of one, as at 
 present. I have also to ask that the duties in G.P.O. and district offices
 
 The Dublin Case. 477 
 
 which exceed 8 hours should be revised, so as to bring them within that 
 limit. Here is a typical case from Fairview, D.O. : — 
 
 6.30 to 9 o'clock a.m. 
 
 1 to 1.30 p.m. 
 
 2.30 to 5 o'clock p.m. 
 
 6.30 to 9.45 p.m. — 8 hours and 55 minutes. 
 
 The postmen on commercial walks must make a second delivery of registered 
 letters, after they have liuished the morning delivery. If they tinished at 
 8.45 a.m., and were kei)t until 9.30 delivering these letters, they would 
 not be allowed to sign tlie latter time, but must sign 8.45 as the time of 
 finishing their duty, so that they actually do work which the Department 
 refuses to recognise. They ask that this time should be counted into theu- 
 day's work. Postmen who make van collections complain that (in wet 
 weather) they must sit on the uncovered seat of the van. No cushion or 
 covering is provided. A collection may take three-quarters of an hour, and 
 during that time the water from the roof of the van is flowing over the seat 
 on which the collector is sitting. The se;its of the accelerator are also left 
 uncovered, and on a wet morning, during the 20 minutes' wait for the 
 postmen, are exposed to the rain. This must result m injury to health, and 
 they ask that it should l>e remedied. I now come to the evidence on behalf 
 of the Dublin auxiUary postmen. The proportion of auxiliary to established 
 postmen is greater in Dublin than any other of our large cities. Taking 
 Glasgow a.s the highest, we find that the auxiliaries form 28 per cent, of 
 the total staff of postmen in that city. In Dublin they form 41 per cent. 
 In my statement I will endeavour to show how this percentage may be 
 reduced by the amalgamation of a number of auxiliaries' duties, so as to form 
 full-time duties, by the establishment of a staff of town sorting postmen, 
 by increasing the nmnber of postmen, stampers, and by adding the 
 11 p.m. collectors to the full-time staff. The necessity for some such 
 revision is urgent, for promotion in Dublin is almost at a standstill. At 
 th« age a telegraph messenger aux-iliary is obtaining his appointment in 
 London, a messenger in Dublm has just taken up his 8s. duty. During the 
 past 3^ years there were but 30 postmen appointed in Dublin, or an average 
 of 8.5 annually, so that the last of the 85 junior auxiliaries cannot hope to 
 obtain his appointment, under present conditions, before 1906, at which 
 time he will be about 50 years of age. It is idle to expect that these men 
 can be contented in the Service. The ags limit at present debars the older 
 men from obtaining their appointment, and they have consequently no 
 future before them. They may continue in the Service until old age 
 renders them unfit for work, when they must retire without one penny 
 compensation for their time. Auxiliaries consider the examination into 
 their qualifications, after they have passed several years in the Service, 
 altogether unnecessary, considering that during that time they have been 
 performing all the duties of postmen, and must be fitted to |3erform them, 
 otherwise the Department is not acting fairly to the public in allowing 
 unqualified men to perform duties on the careful discharge of which so much 
 depends. It has been stated that auxiliaries are not medically examined 
 upon taking up their duties. That is not so in Dublin. Examination for 
 appointment should ttike place before taking up the duties of postmen, 
 and an auxiliary should become fully appointed, even though he were only 
 oa a part-time duty, after the expiration of a 12 months' probationary 
 period. He would not then lie at the loss — so far as pension, stripes, and 
 promotion are concerned— of his years of service previous to his obtaining 
 full-time duty, and should he fail to qualify, would not be too old to obtain 
 other employment. As it is, if he should leave the Service at 24, the 
 average of nomination, he is too old to learn any other business, and is 
 practically, in the present scarcity of employment, without any future
 
 478 Mr. DoRAN, Dublin. 
 
 before him. As a case in point, I may mention Robert Fleming, who entered 
 the Service in 1885 as telegraph messenger, became auxiliary in 1890, at 
 about 20 ye;irs of age, and failed in his examination through being medi- 
 cally unfit in 1894. He was then told to resign, and had to leave the Service 
 at 24 years of age. He has since been unable to find employment. The 
 age limit should be abolished so as to admit of the adult auxiliaries obtaining 
 their appointments, which, in consideration of their long service, should 
 be given to them without examination. The system of nominating for 
 appointment men who have jjerformed no auxiliary duty, except, perhaps, 
 a qualifying period, deprives men of seven or eight yeir.s' service of the 
 priority which is their right, and contributes to the stagnation of promo- 
 tion, and it is therefore asked that all auxiliary and established postman- 
 ships should he confined to those Avho have passed through the telegraph 
 messengership, exception.s baing made in the case of the present staff of 
 auxiliaries. There are 16 auxiliaries on early collection duty. Their duties 
 are very heavy, requiring tliat the\' leave their homes at 3.30 a.m., and do 
 not finish imtil about 9 a.m. Some of them have very long service — ^as much 
 as 20 years. Their wages are 15s. weeklj^ They are not paid any extra for 
 Sunday, though they work five hours, doing the same duties as on week- 
 days. Ten are employed at the parcels depot from 4 to 7 o'clock p.m., 
 but they have no certainty of this duty, and fear that it may be taken from 
 them at any moment, in which case they would be compelled, in the 
 majority of cases, to finish tlieir time in the Service at 15s. per week. Their 
 duties should be added to, so as to bring their day's work up to 8 hours, 
 and the older men should obtain their appointments without examination. 
 Eleven of the 12s. class make 11 p.m. collections from town and district 
 letter-boxes. Tlieir duties — occupying 6 hours, and extending over 17 — 
 should be considered full-time. These men are paid 5s. for the collection, 
 making their wages etjual to the present minimum of the established class, 
 but from some unknown reason the 5s. is considered an extra allowance, 
 this has made it possible for appointed men, at the maximum of their class, 
 to hold these collections, thus depriving many of the miserably-paid aux- 
 iliaries of the chance of obta.ining this so-called allowance. Appointed men 
 cannot hold these collections without injury to their health — a conf-e- 
 quent loss to the Department by the increase in sick pay. If they were 
 held by auxiliaries they would, upon their obtaining appointments, have 
 reverted to other auxiliaries, whereas an established man may hold them as 
 long as he remains in the Service. Recently these collections were reduced 
 from 18 to 15, but instead of taking them from the better paid established 
 men, they were taken from the auxiliaries, thus reducing the latter from 17s. 
 per week to 12s. The auxiliaries feel this very much, and hope, through 
 your recommendation, to obtain redress. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When was this done ? 
 
 A. About a month ago. There are 16 of these collections, and four are 
 held by appointed men. Recently the number of collections was reduced by 
 the amalgamation of two or three of them. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is there a special allowance of 5s. for this collection ? 
 
 A. It is called a special allowance, but it is in reality pay for work 
 performed'. 
 
 Q. It is a payment for work during the collection? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Does the established man get the 5s. in addition to his 
 ordinary pay? 
 
 A. Yes ; four of these men get it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Are you certain of the facts, for they are quite new to me? 
 
 A. Yes ; I am quite certain. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith: It is outside the ordinary pay? 
 
 A. Yes ; and in addition to their ordinary hours. They have to work 
 from a quarter to 6 in the morning till 12 p.m.
 
 The Dublin Case. 479 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Are you certain of your facts ? 
 
 A. I am quite certain ; and bitter complaint is made about it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I will look into it. 
 
 Witness : The number of auxiliaries can be reduced, and the number of 
 full-time postmen increased with very little difficulty. By a i-eadjustment of 
 duties, work at present performed by two auxiliaries could be done by 
 one established man, and one auxiliary. For instance, the 15s. class per- 
 form morning and midday delivery and one collection, their duty averaging 
 5-^ hours. The 12s. class perform two deliveries, generally morning and 
 night. On a 12s. duty becoming vacant, the night delivery could be added 
 to the 15s. duty, thus making one full-time duty and one 8s. duty, or the 
 midday of the 15s. duty could be added to the 12s. duty with the same 
 result. This would add about 20 to the full-time class, bringing the number 
 to 174, and reduce the auxiliaries by about 20. thus increasing the facility 
 of promotion. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: What number of hours would that spread over? 
 
 A. It is spread over 15 hours. 
 
 Q. And do you think there would be no objection to that? 
 
 A. The men would rather have it than be as they are. 
 
 Q. They would rather have a duty spread over 15 hours and liave more 
 auxiliaries appointed? Do you say they would rather amalgamate the two 
 duties ? 
 
 A. I am speaking for the auxiliaries, and I say they would sooner have the 
 duties amalgamated, although they are spread over 15 hours. 
 
 Q. Which do you think would be the l)est yourself? 
 
 A. I should prefer the amalgamation of the duties. There are three 
 auxiliaries at parcel depot doing 8 hours daily who could also be appointed. 
 Tiiat the appointed stixff has not been so increased is due to the fact that 
 auxiliary labour can be had cheaper. There is no increase of pay, and few 
 extras, while the api>ointed man is entitled to all such advantages. If the 
 appoint/cd or full-time staff were increased as above suggested, and town 
 sorting and sorting clerkships thrown open to postmen, the present stag- 
 nation of promotion would disappear, and the future prospects of auxiliaries 
 be considerably improved. Upon being promoted to auxiliary postman, a 
 Dublin telegraph messenger is put on a one delivery duty, for which he is 
 paid 8s. if employed at a district, and 7s. if employed at Central Office. 
 In the evening he does duty as telegraph messenger, at which he earns 
 about 4s. weekly. While on this duty he is allowed boots, sick pay, and 
 annual leave (from telegraph branch). On taking his next step — lis. or 12s. 
 duty — he loses all these extras, and finds himself after one years service in 
 a worse condition tlian at the lieginning. On passing from the lis. (one 
 delivery and one collection) to 12s. duty (two deliveries), he finds his work 
 increased out of all proportion to his pay. On the lis. duty he is paid a 
 fraction more than S^d. ; on 12s. duty about 4d. per hour. There should be 
 a minimum rate of 6d. per hour for all postmen performing part-time duties. 
 It is unjust that they should receive no increment while on these duties. 
 Their services increase in value with time, and if other branches are entitled 
 to such an increase, they also are entitled, and for the same reasons. The 
 absence of anj^ inducements to good conduct — in the case of adult auxiliaries 
 — cannot be beneficial to the Service, and is not for the good of the public. 
 Take the case of R. Gilligan and E. Reaney. The former entered the Service 
 as telegraph messenger in 1872. liecame auxiliary in 1876, failed in medical 
 examination in 1882, and is now 36 years of age, and after 20 years' aux- 
 iliary service, in receipt of 16s. per week. 
 Mr. Walpole : He failed in the medical examination ? 
 A. Yes ; he failed. 
 
 Q. And could not therefore be appointed? 
 A. Yes ; he could not be appointed. 
 0. Do you hold the Department to blame for that?
 
 480 Mr. DoRAN, Dublin, 
 
 A. No, for nothing of that nature ; but I hold it to blame for only 
 paying liim 16s. a week after 20 years' service. 
 
 Q. Perhaps the Department would have done better to have got rid 
 of him altogether? 
 
 A. At the time, perhaps, but sot after 20 years' service. E. Keaney 
 entered the Service as messeuger about 1877, and became auxiliary about 
 1879, failed in educational t-cst in 1831, is now 38 years of age, and has 
 17 years' auxiliary service. He works about 7 hours daily, and is paid 
 17s. a week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There, again, is a case in wliich it would have been wiger 
 for the Department to have said to the man, " You must go, as you have 
 not passed the examination." 
 
 A. Althougli this man failed educationally he has been performing the 
 duties of postman, though lie i^ supposed not to be qualified to perform 
 these duties ; but suppo.'ing the man is not put on full-time duty, he should 
 be allowed some increment, and have some encouragement to keep on in 
 the Service. Had these men been allowed an annual increment, no matter 
 how small, it would have cheered them up by the hope of a better future, 
 and encouraged them to make a good name for themselves in t'.ie Service 
 by the desire to earn it. But tlierc was no such hope for them, and their 
 long years' .'lervice must have been clieerless ones indeed. An auxiliary 
 must pass at least three years on the 12s. class, and at least 18 months on 
 the 15s., or other duties, before being nominated for appointment. If he 
 passes, he must begin after about 9 years' (telegraph messenger and aux- 
 iliary) service at 17s. per ■week, and is not secure in his position vmtil two 
 years have passed ; this lengthening of the probationary period is a great 
 hardship. We ask that examination be held before taking up 8s. duty, and 
 a yearly increment of Is. be given until obtaining full-time duty, or until 
 reaching the minimum of tliat duty. Upon reaching that duty, to rise by 
 annual increments of 2s. to the maximum of that class. At present a Dublin 
 postman must pass 18 years (inclusive of auxiliary service) before obtaining 
 th3 maximum. Dublin auxiliaries are on the same footing as regards Christ- 
 mas boxes as the established men, and they would not be satisfied that they 
 should be abolished without com.pensation. A minimum of 6d. per hour 
 woidd add about 3s. to all (except the 4 a.m. collection class), their wages, 
 and the Sunday pay, if granted, would be equal to lOd. weekly. These, 
 with the other extias, would be sufficient satisfaction for the loss they would 
 sustain. The 4 a.m. collectors coxild be compensated by bringing their duties 
 up to full time. Auxiliary postrren should receive full pay when on sick 
 leave. Their wages do not admit of sa^nng, and the case of an auxiliary 
 detained from work by any lengthened illness is pitiable. His recovery 
 is retarded by want, and by anxiety for those dependent on him. This is a 
 great hardship, and on behalf of the Du'olin auxiliaries I ask for full pay- 
 ment when on sick leave. I have also to ask that all auxiliaries be granted 
 a fortnight's holiday ; and that boot money be given in proportion 
 to duty ; that is, 10s. 6d. for lis. and 12s. classes, and 21s. for 
 heavier duties. It is almost impossible for auxiliaries to keep themselves 
 in good foot wear on their wages, and some auxiliaries have more outdoor 
 work than appointed men. 
 
 Sir F. MoAA'att: Is no boob money allowed to auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Not to those under 17s. per week. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: But when they get 17s. per week tliey are full-time men? 
 
 A. No, sir ; I think it is 18s. a week. There are only one or two men 
 doing that. With the exception of late arrival of English mail, and over- 
 time worked at Christmas and Good Friday, auxiliaries are not paid for 
 extra duty. The 12s. duty is understood to occupy 4^ hours, but few of 
 that class do under 5, and delivery of circulars sometimes keeps them much 
 longer, but they are paid nothing extra.
 
 ISPER C. BADCOCK. Esq.. Chief Controller of the London Postal Service. 
 Departmental Witness for the London Case.
 
 Tl- Dublin Cnse 4S1 
 
 yh ^yalJ)ole : It is pavt of t!>eir contr^ict. 
 
 Wilress : But llie auxiliaries think they sli.oi'.'il hi piid as in the case of 
 established iiieii. Auxiliaries attached to the C>;ntra! Office are paid extra 
 for Sunday work. lit the districts they are not paid. In these latter, on 
 any Simday r..(Tning, an aiixiliary may be si-^n working beside an established 
 postman, doing exactly the same work, am! doing it equally well. On the 
 following Saturday the appointed man v.ill be pai 1 from Is. 6d. to 2s. 6d. 
 extra, vrhile the auxiliary is piid nothing. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say lie is piid not'iirg, but it is in hi-s pay. 
 
 Witne.s3 : It was also in the p ly of the established class, but the De- 
 j artment changed that. The auxiliaries want to have their work in 6 days, 
 the same as the appointed men. Tliis is a great source of discontent amongst 
 the auxiliaries, and tliey ask for payment for Sunday work in proportion 
 to their rate per hour. In considering the wages of Dulilin auxiliaries, it 
 must not bo forgotten that outside employment is the exce[)ti()n. I know of 
 but tl>ree auxiliaries who hold cmjdoyment outside the Post Office, and to 
 a considerable number their earnings as postmen cor.s'itute the only means 
 of supi^ort. So it is really necessary in justice t') t'.ie pu.blic that the.se 
 men to whom its property is entrusted s'.ould be raised above actual want, 
 and the wages I have stated will do nothing more. Tlie following statement 
 h.is been sujjplied to me from tlie postmen of the Dublin Parcel Post Depot: 
 — The men of this depot de.sire to lay befor? ynu the main cause of dis- 
 content as bi'iefly as possible. They are as follows: — Promotion for post- 
 men at this de]>ot is actually at a standstill and we suggest that trans^'er 
 to .sorting clerkships at t.hi.s office should b-e the rule, as tl.e postmen em- 
 plcj'ed at pircel duty have performed in tho p'.st. and are called ui>on at 
 present, to satisfactorily perform certain sorti.ig duties. On a number of 
 deserving postmen being transferred to the sorting staff their places on 
 the postmen's list could be filled by auxiliary postmen being appointed 
 as established men. At times of exceptionil pressure the men here have to 
 perform the primarv sorting duty, live mci b^ing told off for this important 
 work from tlie 20th to the 25th December. ]895, inclusive, without receiving 
 the allowance usually granted to "relieving and. sorting postmen" at other 
 offices, which 'nnounts to 7s. weekly. They therefore cannot .see why the 
 other branches are not open to thein. T.! o Department has already trans- 
 feired postmen to the sorting staff without t'cir undergoing any educational 
 test other than that which they had previously undergone for a postman- 
 ship, and they have proved themselves capable of the performance of such 
 duties, and even higher positioas in the Service, which we would be glad to 
 see in a better state of efficiency. On the admission of outsiders to this 
 dejwrtment, we have noticed a tendency to belittle the jiostmen on all 
 possible occasions, but believe that this policy is mainly confined to aux- 
 iliary and iinestablished sorting clerks, such a prictice not being sanctioned 
 or encouraged by men who have risen from f»ur ranks. We consider it 
 the duty of tlie Department to discourage such a r()licy, which surely is 
 not calculate 1 to lead to the better performance of duties at this depot. 
 We may in this reap?.ct draw your attention to tlie fact that, urdike the 
 letter sortip.g office, there are ]X)stnien employed on every parcel sorting 
 division, and they being in direct contact with, the sorting clerk, you can 
 easily come to the conclusion that such a state of tilings should not exist. 
 We also believe that a revision of duties would i)e calculated to afford us 
 a more even basis a.s compared with our bretliren in English provincial 
 offices, as there is no such person known here ?.s a head postman, head 
 bagman, head mail messeng.er, storekeeper's assistant, yard officer, or 
 other s'leh-like prsitions. which bring an increa.se in the ordinary wages, 
 althouEch there are duties incorporated with the ordinary work of .'aip^rvising 
 and other officers drawing much larger salaries than ours, wliich could with 
 advantage to the Department be performel by postmen with the aforesaid 
 designation,*. Another matter which cdls for redress is the svstem of
 
 482 Mr. DoRAN, Dublin. 
 
 stopping the allowance granted for the i)erformance of parcel post duty when 
 wij are on sick lc;ive. This calls for an immediate change, especially when 
 you take into consideration the fact that our work is of a very laliorious 
 nature, and its hardship is added to by having also to perform from 11 to 
 12 hours' duty fortnightly without ( ajnient for overtime. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean that the men have 11 or 12 hours' duty in 
 one day ? 
 
 A. I will explain tliat as it goes on. The cause of this state of things 
 is the system which allows six indoor postmen to be off dutj"- on each 
 Mondaj' morning, and then entails a midday duty on any of the six days 
 for the purpose of makin..,' a return of the time previously allowed ; we 
 have noticed a tendency to effect a. change making this full to each postman 
 tri-weekly, but considering the severe work during our eiglit hours (which 
 extends over 15), it is at any time a hardship, and we ask for its entire 
 abolition, on the grounds of its being likely to militate ag^iinst our h&ilth. 
 My explanation as to the 11 or 12 hours" duty a day is this: — Six men of 
 each class are let off on Monday morning, but they have to make it up by 
 doing a midday duty, wliich take^ 3^ or 4 hours, and that brings their 
 total duty on that day up to 11^ hours. We may also mention as excessive 
 labour the duty of loading and unloading parcel mails at the depot and at 
 railway stations. These parcel hampers usually weigh from 8 to 10 stone. 
 Surely this sliould be classed as labourers' work, and does not tend to 
 make our uniforms present a neat or clean appearance, and also consider 
 that v,'e are l>ound by rule to " appear on duty clean and presenting a neat 
 apiiearance," failure to do so entailing probable loss of good conduct badges. 
 We would be thankful for a revision of all our duties, which would bring 
 the performance of our eight hours within a twelve hours' limit. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : But I thought you proposed a change for the purpose 
 of absorbing auxiliaries, which would involve spreading the duty over 15 
 hoursj 
 
 A. I did in the case of auxiliaries, as the only possible means of getting 
 these men established. It would be better for these men to be appointed 
 than be as tliey are now. 
 
 Q. But now you are .asking to have the dutias confined to 12 hours. Tliat 
 is not quite consi.stent, is it? 
 
 A. I admit that ; but this is the application of the parcel office only. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would you have one rule in one part, and another rule in 
 the other? 
 
 A. The desire of the postmen is to get their duty within 12 hours, but 
 in some cases it would be an advantage to have them spread over 15 hours. 
 
 Q. But surely you must have one or the other? 
 
 A. I should say as far as possible it should be done. I suppose a change 
 will not be made, except as far as possible. The statement continues : — 
 Considering the hours we have mentioned, you cannot wonder at the men 
 complaining of the excessive punishment meted out for late attendance, 
 which in the case of the indoor men takes the form of a midday dutj'' of 
 three hours' duration, as compared with the letter-carrying branch with two 
 hours for a like offence. This has been the practice up to the end of 1895 ; 
 we believe it is intended to effect a change, making us work up tim.e lost. 
 With that mode of punishment we could agree, as it would be but fair to 
 the Department, but time lost on Sundays, with consequent loss of extra 
 pay to us, we should not be asked to work up. We may mention that late 
 attendance on such days also count against our annual increment, good con- 
 duct badges, etc., and we contend a change should be made in this rule 
 We are in accord with the letter-carrying postmen generally in their request 
 for the abolition of Christmas boxes, and ask that an allowance similar to 
 that already granted to indoor postmen should be conceded to the parcel 
 post deliverers, who, you are aware, are not allowed to solicit Christmas 
 gratuities. Regarding those men, we do not believe it is witliin your know-
 
 The Dublin Case. 483 
 
 ledge that a system prevails here of allowing them time off instead of payment 
 for overtime, and taking into consideration their present scanty wage, which 
 is not added to by an allowance of any kind from the Department, and 
 seMom from the jjublic, we ask that they be paid for their work As 
 showing the severe nature of our work generally, we may mention that a 
 letter-carrier who came to this depot, although granted the allowance for 
 indoor duty, found it necessary to apply for transfer back to the letter- 
 carrying braach. The majority of the men here are only deterred from 
 jnaking similar application by their sense of what is due to their own self- 
 re^pect, as they desire to have no connection with the system of privileged 
 begging at Christmas time. The postmen in this depot who were employed 
 exclusively on parcel post duties should have been in receipt of the Treasury 
 grant of 5s. per week from the time they t^iok up duty in the jmrcel depot 
 as established postmen. Although in a number of cases they replaced men 
 who had this allowance, they did not receive it until a lengthened period had 
 elapsed, and tb.en only when they had petitioned the Postmaster-General 
 in 1890. The Department has certainly deprived these men of the money 
 they should have been receiving whilst doing parcel post duty, and they 
 now ask that the matter be taken into consideration with a view to their 
 being compensated, as they believe the Treasury grant dated from the intro- 
 duction of tlie Parcel Post in 1893. In conclusion, we would ask a careful 
 consideration of all the facts we have mentioned, and whatever revision may 
 be the outcome of your honourable Committee, we expect it to lie for the 
 benefit of the public, the Department, and the men. Now, I have to submit 
 the case of the sub-office establi><hed class. I beg to present the case of the 
 postmen employed at Dundrum, Malahide, and Howth sub-offices (under 
 Dublin), and Botterstown. These localities are fashionable suburban and 
 seaside resorts, and consequently the cost of livuig and house rent.s are 
 high, while the duties performed are very arduous and trying, often extend- 
 ing over a periml of 13 hours per day, while the maximum wage in Dun- 
 drum and ?»Ialahide for the established class is 24s. per week, which is 
 considered inadequate for a man to keep hLs family and live in decency and 
 comfort. At Howth Office the wage js a fixed one of 20s. per week for 
 established class, the duties requiring two attendances daily, viz., from 
 7 a.m. to 11.15 a.m., and from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you say the wages are fixed at 20s. a week? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. I think you must be wrong? 
 
 A. Well, I am informed it is so. 
 
 Q. Is it on the established class? 
 
 A. So I am informed by Postman P. Connell. 
 
 Q. He must be wrong. 
 
 A. Possibly. In summer time the d*ity occupies 9 hours i)er day, in 
 consequence of the increase of correspondence in this district, and in addition 
 to the collection and delivery of letters, the parcel post, weighing about 
 2 cwt., has to be wheeled on a truck from railway station up a steep hill, 
 about half-a-mile in length, without any help, by one man, P. Connell, 
 and afterwards the number of parcels taken out by him with the ordinary 
 delivery of letters are from 7 to 15, some of wliich often weigh 11 lbs. 
 weight, and complains that he is often bent to the ground after traversing 
 a distance of nearly 10 miles with, tliose heavy parcels before his delivery 
 is completed, as two walks are merged into one, on second delivery, and also, 
 that there is an allowance of 3s. per week for station service, and 2s. per 
 week for collections which he does not receive, and the remuneration re- 
 ceived for alternative Sunday duty is lid. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you complain of the allowance of 3s. a week? 
 
 A. It is an error in the punctuation ; the statement is not mine. He states 
 that it is allowed, but that he does not receive it.
 
 484 Mr. DoRAN, Dublin. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is very Irish, certainly. 
 
 Witness: It is allowed but the man does not receive it; that is, he does ^ 
 not get it tliough it is allowed for the duty. 
 
 y. Why does he not get it? 
 
 A. I do not know. He says it is allowel for the duty, but he does not 
 get it. A certain sum is allowed, but it does not get into the hands of 
 the men. 
 
 I\Ir. Walpole : Quite so. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You suggest it lias stuck somewhere on the way. Is that 
 your point? 
 
 A. Yes : t'lat is quite right. The duty performed in Dnndrum in\<] 
 Malahide sub-ofHces are equally arduous, and the number of attendance-^ 
 required to perform the duties, as arranged, are four and five daily, spread 
 over 13 and 14 hours per day, and we claim that, as the work is identical, 
 and in every way as important, performed by the postmen in all the sub- 
 offices of Dublm, they should be jjlaced on the same scale of pay as G.P.O. 
 and district offices, as they occupy a similar position to the zone system in 
 London, and have on an average as large an amount of correspondence to deal 
 with as the men in the city. We also contend that there should be a uniform 
 scale of pay for all established po.stmen in city and County Dublin, com- 
 mencing with a minimum of 24s. per week, and a maximum of 40s.. rising 
 !ty an annual increment of 2s. per week. I would also wish to point out 
 that in some offices no medical attendance is provide:! for either the estab- 
 lished or auxiliary class, and they are obliged, consequently, in case of 
 illness, to provide such at their own expense, or seek relief from the local 
 poor law dispensary of their district, notwithstanding the advantages the 
 Department claims the}- derive through this item. They also in most cases 
 have to dispose of the parcel post entirely, without any regard to weight, 
 as long avS they would be able to carry them. This is due to the fact of 
 the local authority ^vorking on lines of strict economy. I also bag to draw 
 attention to the case of the auxiliary i>ostmen of sub-offices. The salaries, 
 though small, would appear to them on entering the Service to be a fair 
 remuneration for the time requii'eJ of them by the Department, along with 
 the inducement held out to them of being put on the established class at a 
 later period, and naturally they are led to believe that their position will 
 be equal eventually to other working men in the district. But after spend- 
 ing nine or ten years as auxiliary, and arriving at years of maturity and 
 manhood, they often find themselves in the same i>osition and receiving the 
 same wages as they did on entering the Service, and their prosi^ects of being 
 placed on the established class as far off as ever, thereby causing discontent 
 and disappointment, having forfeited the time they could have applied to 
 learning a trade or otiier business, by remaining in the Service. Auxiliary 
 postmen in sub-offices have not even the advantage of supplementing thsir 
 scant}^ wages as their brethren in the city, by making collections at night, 
 performing extra duties that arise casually, for which they receive payment 
 in addition to their usual wages. Althou.gh not working an eight-hour day, 
 the number of attendances in the day required in most ceases would entirely 
 exclude them from obtaining other employment, even if such was to be had, 
 and in this respect they have suffered gross injustice, by the Department 
 calculating that their s]mre time is devoted to other employment, which is 
 not the case as a general rule. Also, that the system of auxiliary labour 
 is encouraged by the Department rather than diminished in Count}'" Dublin, 
 even in cases where an eight-hour day has been Avorked, and application 
 made for appointment, the hours of duty have been reduced, so a.s to nullify 
 all claim to 1)6 placed on the established class. They have also to work 
 every alternate Sunday without receiving any extra payment, although in some 
 cases between three i.rid four liours are worked by them on Sunday, requir- 
 ing two attendances, including morning deliverv and evening collection.
 
 The Dublin Case. 485 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Have you any instance of a man's full-time duties having 
 been reduced? 
 
 A. Yes ; I liave au instance here, and I believe a Federation witness 
 mentioned a case. The case I have is that of James Pratt, who, when an 
 auxiliary, applied for an api)ointment, but instr-ad < f sretting it had sonie of 
 his duties taken oflf, and his wages reduced to 16s. His duties were: — 
 
 Morning,... 
 
 Do., ... 
 
 Do , ... 
 Mid-Dav, 
 
 Do., " 
 
 Do , 
 
 Do., 
 Iv^ight, 
 Do , 
 Do , 
 
 Morning,. 
 Evening, . 
 
 G. 
 
 to 
 
 8.15 
 
 9. 5 
 
 M 
 
 9 25 
 
 10.:50 
 
 
 10.50 
 
 12 30 
 
 , J 
 
 1.45 
 
 2.30 
 
 
 2,50 
 
 4.30 
 
 
 5 50 
 
 (;.30 
 
 J, 
 
 G.55 
 
 7 10 
 
 
 S.30 
 
 ;).30 
 
 
 9 50 
 
 11. 
 
 
 11 20 
 Sunday 
 
 G.35 
 
 jj 
 
 8.'.0 
 
 ( 5.30 
 
 ,, 
 
 5. 50 
 
 "J G 30 
 
 )) 
 
 G 50 
 
 DlT 
 
 Eailvvay 
 
 Service and Delivery. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do., 
 
 and Delivery. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 Do., 
 
 and Collection. 
 
 
 Do 
 
 Do., 
 
 and Deliver^. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 
 Do. 
 
 Railway 
 
 Service and Delivery 
 
 Hallway 
 
 Service. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : How long ago was this? 
 
 A. Eleven years ago. But it is a case in point, as showing the Depart- 
 ment does reduce the hours when ai^plication is made for appointment on 
 the establishment. Tiiis man lost Is. 6d. on his wages. This concludes 
 the case I have to put forward. 
 
 The Chairm.an : Thank you. We will now adjourn until Thursday.
 
 JASPER C. BADCOCK, Esq. 
 
 Eebuttixg TiiK Case plt Fom^ ai;d ox BEiiALr cf the London Mkn. 
 
 Westminstek, lOtli iiarch, 1896. 
 
 Mr. Jasper C. Bidcock, Chief Controller of the London Postal Service, 
 was then called on behalf of the Department to give the official reply to 
 the case put foiw.ird by the London postmen.' He was examined as 
 follows : — - 
 
 The Chairman : Has this case of Roberts been brought under your notice ? 
 A. Xo, it jias not ; but while Mr. Churchfield was giving evidence I 
 sent an express letter to the X.W. District in order to obtain particulars. 
 I should just like to mention the case of another witness — I will not give 
 names — which was brought under my notice from a certain district for an 
 irregularity committed, and to explain that in returning it to the Post- 
 master, I specially requested him, in the case of any witnesses, or anybody 
 who supplied information to this Committee, to treat ordinary lapses of 
 duty rather more leniently if possible than in the case of a man who had not 
 given evidence, so that there might be no cause for alleging intimid^ition. 
 That was the instruction to the Postmaster, and I hope I shall be able to 
 afford an equally satisfactory explanation of what has occurred in the case 
 of Roberts. 
 
 Q. Your general instruction to your subordinates with regard to wit- 
 nesses coming before this Committee has been that they are to have free 
 and full opportunity of stating exactly what they wish? 
 
 A. Just so. 
 
 Q. And you would not sanction any sort of hindrance being put in their 
 wi y of doing so, or any results occurring to them on account of the evi- 
 dince being brought before the Committee? 
 
 A. Certainly not. 
 
 Q. Whether that evidence was absolutely true or false, or whatever it 
 was, your view would be that every man had a perfect right to say ab- 
 solutely and fullv what he likes here, leaving it to the Committee to judge 
 what credence shall te put in the statements that he lays before us? 
 
 A. Certainly ; and I think it is proved by the instruction I gave to the 
 Postmaster in the case I referred to just now. 
 
 Q. Now, I think the most convenient way will be for me to ask you some 
 general question.s about the men under your charge, and then run through 
 the evidence and take up particular cases afterwards. I should like first to 
 ask you how many postmen have you under your charge in London? 
 
 A. I cannot say exactly; I think about 4,500. 
 
 Q. And in what classes are they divided? 
 
 A. Of classes there are none now ; in saying 4,500 I was only referring 
 to established postmen. 
 
 Q. You have certain other classes, I think ; you have a number of head 
 postmen, have you not. and you have established postmen, supernumeraries, 
 and auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Yes ; there are 124 head postmen. I find the total number of estab- 
 lished postmen is 5,314. Would you like to have them divided into zones? 
 
 Q. If you please. 
 
 A. There are 3,049 town postmen ; 784 postmen in Zone 1 ; 1,243 in 
 Zone 2 ; 217 in Zone 3 ; and 11 in Zone 4. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : These figures do not make up 3,049? 
 
 A. No ; tlie 3,049 are town postmen. There are 277 auxiliary postmen in 
 the town districts, and 2,204 sul)Ur])an auxiliary postmen. 
 
 Mr. Smith : They are not divided mto zones? 
 
 A. Xn : the rate of ])ay is the same throughout.
 
 Telegraph Messengers. 487 
 
 The Chairman : What about the supernumeraries ? 
 
 A. The supernumeraries stand against establislied vacancies, so that they 
 would be included in the number of postmen in the different zones. There 
 are 91 supernumeraries standing against tlie town postmen vacancies, but 
 the 91 are included in the 3,049. There are 9 in Zone 1, 13 in Zone 2, 7 in 
 Zone 3. 
 
 Q. Now, will you give us the mode of appointment of these various men? 
 
 A. The ijiode of , appointment of all establislied men is the same. They 
 are generally telegraph messengers. They have to pass a qualifying exam- 
 ination consisting of writing tolerably a few lines, reading MS., and simple 
 and compound addition. The telegraph messengers have the first claim on 
 the appointments, the next claim is on the part of auxiliary postmen who 
 entered the Service before the army sclienie of employment was introduced — 
 somewhere about 1892 — and under this scheme men from the reserve who 
 are auxiliary postmen have the next claim. 
 
 y. What rules have you with regard to the limits of age? 
 
 A. The limits of age of postmen are from 18 to 30, with an extension 
 to 45 for a man who has been in the army. 
 
 Q. I should like to ask you for some information with regard to telegraph 
 messengers. How are they appointed? How do you choose them? 
 
 A. A boy makes application, and his home is visited with a view to seeing 
 whether his parents are respectalile, and so on. He has to furnish the or- 
 diniry references as to character, and then when a vacancy occurs he is 
 appointed if everj'thing is favourable. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Is there no examination? 
 
 A. No; but it is a condition that he shall have passed the 5th Stan- 
 dard at a Board School. 
 
 The Chairman : What certainty is there that a telegraph micssenger, if 
 he conducts himself properly, will in due course receive an appointment 
 as a postman? 
 
 A. Up to the present very few of the telegraph messengers have been 
 got rid of at the age of 18 or 19, because we have been able to appoint 
 them all as postmen or sorters. The old plan was to appoint sorters from 
 telegi-aph messengers, but since the mstitution of oj>en competition the 
 sorters' vacancies are not enough to go round. There has not been very 
 nuich inconvenience up to the present, but I am afraid in the coming time 
 tijat we shall not be able to provide nearly so well for the boys as Ave have 
 done in the past. 
 
 Q. Then it will be the case that, after employing these boys for three or 
 four years, you will turn them adrift? 
 
 A. Yes, at the age of 19 ; tlie limits of age of entry are from 13 to 15. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are there a certain number of sorters' appointments reserved 
 for them? 
 
 A. Yes ; one-fourth are reserved for the telegraph messengers for limited 
 competition amongst selected boys of exceptionally good character ; a fourth 
 of the vacancies are also reserved for limited competition amongst postmen. 
 The remaining half are filled up by open competition. 
 
 Q. You say that the telegraph messengers have the first chance? 
 
 A. Yes, for every vacancy. 
 
 Q. And whether he is over age he has first claim in proportion to the 
 number of vacancies reserved for his class? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: May we take it that it is possible in the future that all 
 the appointments will go to the telegraph messenger boys who have the 
 first claim, and that there are not enough to meet outside claims? Will 
 they have exhausted all the appointments ? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so ; and even then we shall not be able to provide for 
 the whole of the boys. I may mention that there is a weeding-out process 
 carried on at the age of 16, and if at that age the record of a telegraph 
 messenger is not fully satisfactory we get rid of him then in preference
 
 488 Jasi'er C. Badcock, London. 
 
 to doing so at tlie age of 18. We rlo so because he has a better cliance of 
 getting other employment at tlie earlier age. 
 
 Mr. Smith : How many are weeded out? Have yoti the figures? 
 
 A. I have not iiere, l)Ut I cm supijly tliem. 
 
 Mr. Smith: It would be rather interesting to liave them. 
 
 The Chairman : Thej* liad better be obt^iined and put in later on. 
 
 Mr. Smitli : How many t.^legrapli messengers are there in London of all 
 ages ? 
 
 A. Nearly 3,000. 
 
 Q. How many come in the co'.irso of a year? 
 
 A. I will get those figures and suj)ply them. 
 
 The Chairin '.n : How many vacmcies have you in t'-e ranks of postmen 
 (hiving the course of a year? 
 
 A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. I only mean on the average? 
 
 A. I will get the figures for you, my lord. Gsnera-lly speaking the past- 
 men are proino'.ed to one-fourth of the vacancies amongst sorters, and a 
 fourth is reserved for telegraph messengers. Of course if a postman is 
 in-omoted to a sortership that m.akes a vacancy for a postman. 
 
 The Chairman : What I really want to know is wliat proportion of 
 openings filled by telegraph messengers is to the number that becomes 
 vacant? 
 
 Mr. Walpcle : Ti:erefore you must iiiclude the sorters' vaca,ncies competed 
 for by telegr.iph messengers. 
 
 Tiie Chairman : I want to a^rrive exactly at what the position and chances 
 of the telegraph messengers are. and whether, provided they behave them- 
 selves properly, tliev are practically certain of continuous employment in 
 the Post Office? 
 
 A. I under.stand. 
 
 Q. I understand from wl^at you have told us that in the future there 
 will be no room for any old soldiers among the postmen? 
 
 A. I am afiaid not; that is to say, among tlie established postmen. 
 There will be room in the auxiliary class. 
 
 Q. Then, following that up, how are the auxiliaries appointed? In what 
 chisses? 
 
 A. From ordinaiy applicatiom? from people who have some other occupa- 
 tion, and who ajjply to be taken on as auxiliary postmen to give them work 
 part of the day. 
 
 Q. And you insist upon auxiliary postmen having other work? 
 
 A. In London, yes. provided their wages are less than 18s. a week. 
 
 Q. The auxiliary postmen are less in number than they used to be? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that every auxiliary postman has another trade? 
 
 A. Yes ; he has another trade or another means of occupation, but 
 whether he always gets work at it I cannot say. I m.ay mention that all 
 the vacancies for auxiliary postmanships are offered in the first place to the 
 Agent-General for Recruiting, in order that they may be filled up by army 
 men if possible. It is only failing a supply of army men that we appoint 
 asi outsider. 
 
 0. And in regard to army men, do you still insist on the same conditions 
 as to other employment, or are you satisfied with the fact of their having a 
 pension? 
 
 A. \Yell. they generally have reserve pay or pension. 
 
 Q. And do vou consider that sufficient to count as other employment? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If it make? up to 18s. a week, I suppose? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 ^Ir. Smith : You do not ever appoint telegraph messengers as a;;xiliaries 
 in London, a? we under?tind it is done in the provinces?
 
 The Auxiliary and Supernumerary Classes. 489 
 
 A. Yes ; when there is a prosj^ect of there being any established vacancy, 
 then they are appointed, b'.it if tliere is no such prosj)ect '.ve do not. 
 
 Q. Is that done to anv large extent in London? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And do the teiegrapli men get the same wages as an established post- 
 man? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Would they form a large pi'oporfcion of the auxiliaries? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Waipole : It would be rather a small proporiion, would it not? 
 
 A. I think it would ; I can supply the exact figures. 
 
 Q. Would it be possible to ex;cnd that proportion very largely, and to 
 recruit the auxiliary class from the telegraph messengers? 
 
 A. No, I am afraid not ; because there would not be a sufficient flow to 
 take them out of the auxiliary class, and if you did so appoint them you 
 would have boys for years doing only part timo work, and so being a drag 
 upon their parents. 
 
 Mr. Smitii : You are speaking of the future when you say you think thei'e 
 will not be enough places for telegraph mcs;^engcrs. At present there are 
 enough, you say? 
 
 A. No ; that is our difficulty now. 
 
 Q. Have you arrived at that alroadj'? 
 
 A. Yes. If we were to put them in the auxiliary class it would be to our 
 interest on their having arrived at the age of 18 to get them into the estab- 
 lished class as quickly as possible. 
 
 ilr. Waipole : Would it not ba a greit advantage to a telegraph boy to 
 he on comparatively short duties in his tirsb years as postman, and not to 
 have to do a *u!l eight-hours' duty? Uould you not pass him through tlie 
 auxiliary class so as to do that? 
 
 A. I rather t'.dnk not. I tliink a boy of 18 wants a full day's work or 
 else he gets into mischief. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. Do you tliiuk lie is strong enough for a full eight-hoiir duty in London? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think so. 
 
 Q. And that is vour opinion? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Does that hiclude early morning work? 
 
 A. The postmen have not very early work. They usually come on at 
 5 a.m. 
 
 Q. Nothing hoiore that? 
 
 A. No ; besides that, where there is an all-night duty it is done uidoors. 
 
 l^l. Would that be done bv an auxiliary"? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 The Chairman : Now let us come to the case of the supernumeraries. 
 
 A. Yes. In former years, after the establishment of the Parcel Post, 
 there were a certain number of uncstablished men who were called super- 
 numeraries, and it was decided in 1890 to abolish that class altogether. 
 The supernumeraiy men are the men who were on that old class employed 
 on full time, and who cannot be placed on the establishment either for a 
 medical reason or age limit, or educational defect. 
 
 Q. It is a class, then, which in a comparatively short time will die out? 
 
 A. Yes, it is a redundant class ; in fact, for every supernumerary man now 
 at work we have an established place against which he stands, and as he 
 drops out that established place will be filled up. 
 
 Q. It has been suggested to us more than once that these telegraph mes- 
 sengers are employed as reliefs for absent postmen. Is that so? 
 
 A. Tl'at is so. 
 
 Q. On what terms do you employ them? 
 
 A. A boy is not employed under 17^ on postman's duty, but between 17^ 
 and 18 ; he is then paid 17s. a week ; if he is 18 or above he is paid tlie 
 minimum postman's wage of 18s. per week.
 
 490 Jasper C. Badcock, London. 
 
 Q. Have you many of these boys so employed as a rule? 
 
 A. Yes ; a fair number. 
 
 Q. And then do they go back to their position of telegi-aph messengers 
 when the occasion for their employment ceases? 
 
 A. Yes ; tliey go back to their work. 
 
 Q. And to tlieir own pay, althougli they have been receiving a higher rate 
 of pav? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. AValpoIe : Would there be many cases in which they go back to their 
 usual emploTOient? You see they are not put on this work until 17^? 
 
 A. Yes ; tliey are only brought out to work a sick man's duty or to 
 assist in a time of pressure. 
 
 Q. A time of j)ressure lil-ie Cliristmas, do you mean? 
 
 A. Yes ; they are brought at a time of pressure like Christmas, but then 
 they are not suj^posed to do a postman's full duty ; they are merely assist- 
 ing, and they are not jmid at the full rate ; they are paid 12s. a week, 
 with 1>onu.s. 
 
 Q. Besides the litei-ary examination, have you a medical examination 
 for postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Not for everv class in it? 
 
 A. Xo. ■ 
 
 Q. Not for the auxiliary class? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. But the established postman has to pass a medical examination? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What is it? 
 
 A. I am afraid I can hardly say that. 
 
 Q. I do not want you to explain what the medical man does, but I 
 want to know the rules, and how often a m.an has to go before the medical 
 officer? 
 
 A. He has to go before him on being nominated for appointment as 
 established postman ; he lias to go again at the end of six months, and again 
 at the end of 22 months, •s^itli a view to the appointment being confirmed. 
 
 Q. Do you look upon that two years' probation as a purely medical 
 probation, or do you look upon it as a conduct probation? 
 
 A. We also look upon it as a conduct probation. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, how many men are rejected at the end of six 
 months? Are there many? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. On medical grounds? 
 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Do you have a great many rejections at the first examination? 
 
 A. Yes ; a great many. 
 
 Q. Wliat sort of proportioii' would the number be of those rejected to 
 those examined? 
 
 A. I am afraid I cannot say. I do not see the nomination cases until the 
 men have passed through the hands of the medical officer. 
 
 Q. Has an auxiliary, before becoming an established postman, to undergo 
 the .same medical examination? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And to pass through the same period of probation? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In spite of the fact that he may have been employed a considerable 
 number of years by the Department? 
 
 A. Yes ; but he would only be on part time work. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is necessary to have two years' probation in the ca.se 
 of that nian — in the case of a, man who has been a long time in the em* 
 plo\nnent of the Department?
 
 The Minimum, lucrement, aud iNIaximum. 491 
 
 A. I should think it was not so necessary as in tlie case of a man brought 
 fresh to the work. 
 
 Q. You are well aware what the man's conduct has been? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Do you lind you get the supply of men that you require? You have 
 not any lack of applications for poslmanships generally? 
 
 A. Oh, no ; we have more than we can satisfy. 
 
 Q. Now, with regard to the quality of the men coming in, do you think 
 it keeps up to the standard, or have you any reason to be dis.satisfied with 
 the quality of the men you get as postmen? I mean, is the raw material 
 such as you would wish to have? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think so on t'le whole, since we have taken to weeding out 
 the unsatisfactory telegraph messengers. 
 
 Q. But when you speak of weeding out. are these me-ssengers not subject 
 to dismissal at any time? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. They are not on the establishmeat. are thev? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Then in addition to the periodical weeding out there is the power of 
 dismissal which the Postmaster has? 
 
 A. Yes ; there is constant weeding out going on, and if a bo}^ does not 
 turn out quite satisfactory we get rid of Iiim. 
 
 Q. You mean that if a boy misconducts himself frequently he is dis- 
 missed at discretion? 
 
 A. Yes ; but at 16 we revise the boy's service and see if he is likely to 
 make a satisfactory servant or not ; if not we get rid of him. 
 
 Q. In that way you ought to have a considerable knowledge of the 
 greater part of the men or bovs who are passed into the postmen's class ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And in those cases you would be content with a shorter 
 probation than two years? ♦ 
 
 A. I think not as regards the medical examination, because at the age 
 when a man is appointed a postman his constitution is changing, and one 
 does not know what may occur. 
 
 Q. Now, will you give us the pay of postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; for head postmen the scale of wages is 23s., rising by Is. 6d. 
 to 38s. Every postman commences at a minimum of 18s., rising by an in- 
 crement of Is. to 34s. for town jjostmen, 32s. for Zone 1, 30s. for Zone 2, 
 26s. for Zone 3, and 24s. for Zone 4. Zone 4 is made up of the outlying 
 districts, such as Manor Park, Chingford, and Woodford. They are semi- 
 rural districts, in fact. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the pressnt amount of increment is a fair one, or 
 do you tliink that tlie time a man takes to reach his maximum is too long? 
 
 A. I think the time he takes to reach Jiis maximum is too long, and that 
 the increment ought to be increased. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Q. I should like to ask you what your own opinion is with regard to 
 the maximum and minimum rate of pay at present in force among the town 
 postmen? 
 
 A. The question of the minimum rate of pay is rather a general one, 
 and would depend on tlie rate of pay for adult labour generally. There is 
 no reason why the postman's minimum rate of pay should be higher than 
 the sorter's minimum rate of wages. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are not their ages dififerent ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Is the average age at which they come in the same? 
 
 A. Yes ; about, the same. As regards the maximum, I certainly think 
 that there is room for an increase. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Q. You would be inclined to put these postmen rery much on the footing 
 of 2nd class sorters?
 
 -102 Jaspkh C. Uadoook, London. 
 
 A. I think so. I think their duties are er[ual in importance, and if any- 
 tliing the postmen's duties are more arduous than those of 2nd class sorters ; 
 they have more split attendances. 
 
 Q. What are the sorters' scale of w;rges? 
 
 A. 18s. by Is. to 20s., and then by 2s. to 40s. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You are speaking of the town postmen now? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. As distinct from zone postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Now, there is another question I should like to ask you, 
 and it is this — Do j-^ou think there is a difference in the work and respon- 
 sibility of postmen in the different parts of London suc'i as to warrant the 
 great differences in the maximum whicli are found between those of town 
 postmen and those of the postmen in the various zones? 
 
 A. I think not quite ; but there should be a difference for the different 
 zones. That would be quite justifiable, as the men who live in the higher 
 class districts have considerable difficulty in securing suitable lodgings close 
 to their work, and some allowance should be made for the travelling ex- 
 penses they have to incur. 
 
 Q. Then the difference I understand you to put it is in the amount tlie 
 man would have to pay for rent and ti-avelling, rather than in the nature 
 of the duties? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. But would you be in favour of maintaining the zone system in its 
 integrity, by having as many different zones as at prasent? 
 
 A. I think so. I believe the number is right, but whether there might 
 not be some adjustment necessary in some cases I am not prepared to say. 
 
 Mr. Smith: I see there are hardly amy established postmen in Zone 4; 
 is that because it is so very small ? 
 
 A. Yes, it is a very small one ; it only consists of Manor Park, South 
 Woodford, and Chingfor(#; they are really places built out of provincial 
 offices. Manor Park was part of the Ilford delivery. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is it possible to distribute these 2,204 auxiliaries over the 
 different zones. It would be interesting to see where they are placed. 
 
 A. I will supply the particulars, certainly. I have not here the distri- 
 bution for the different zones. 
 
 The Chairman : You have told us wliat. you thought should be the scale 
 for town postmen, but you have not told us what you suggest with regard 
 to tlie zone postmen* Have you thought of that? 
 
 A. I think their scale should be adjusted to a corresponding extent. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You would increase the maximum of the town postman 6s., 
 would you not? 
 
 A. I have not gone quite so far as that. 
 
 Q. Well, would you say 3s. ? 
 
 A. I said that I Avouldput them somewhat on the same scale as 2nd class 
 sorters ; I have not committed myself to any definite amount. 
 
 The Chairman : I rather understood you to say that you thought the 
 duties of the postmen in the various zones were practically identical with 
 those of the town postmen, but that their expenses were less, and tliat 
 therefore the ratio of their maxbnuni should be settled by a consideration 
 of what their expenses are? 
 
 A. Yes ; and that is the principle on which the present condition of things 
 is based. 
 
 Q. You say the duties of postmen are identical ? 
 
 A. I do not think I can go quite so far as that. There are certain 
 differences, but there are also compensating differences. For instance, the 
 work of the postman in one zone would be more important than the cor- 
 responding work of a man in a town district, whilst certain of the work 
 of the men in the town district would be more important than the work of 
 the men in the zone.
 
 The Extension of Stripes — Uniform. 493 
 
 Q. Still, if you put all the men on an equality with regard to the ne- 
 cessaries of life, then you say they ought to l>e jiaid on an equal footing? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so; ajid as illustrating the ilifference, I may mention that 
 one day last week I was in tlie S. Kensington Office, and I looked through 
 the address book there to see where the men employed in that office lived. 
 I found that a great number of tliem lived at Fulham, a large working- 
 class neighbourhood having spnmg up there, and houses having been built 
 which are let to two families, and that kind of thing. Now, the life of a 
 man in the S. Kensington OfBoe who lives at Fulham and lias to go back- 
 wards and forwards three times a day is harder than that of the Fulham 
 po.stman whose work lies at his own door, so to speak. 
 
 Q. Then, besides the question of pay and regular increment, the postmen 
 have a further advantage in the shape of good conduct stripes? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. At present there are three — cne for every 5 years" service — provided 
 the man has a good record ? 
 
 A. Tliat is so. 
 
 Q. Would you be in favour of sn extension of this system? I mean 
 does it not seem a little bit hard on a man who goes on to 20, 25, and 30 
 years not to get any increase of his stripes? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Would it be your view that so long as a man is a postman and re- 
 mains in the postman's class he should get a stripe for every 5 years' satis- 
 factory service? 
 
 A. Well, a man serving 4D years as a postman would be all stripes ! 
 (Laughter.) Still, I think the principle is right. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But what is more important than that, is that it would 
 be all shillings. (Renewed laughter.) 
 
 A. That is the Treasury point of view. T!ie difficulty of too many 
 stripes could be got over l)y some other <levice. 
 
 The Chairman : It would not be a very probable thing that a man who 
 had served 30 years and had been of good conduct all that time, so as to 
 secure all the stripes due to him, wouhl remain a postman, would it? 
 
 A. I do not know that. Tliere are a good many worthy postmen who 
 would not be fit for any higher position. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say your view would lie that some extension of 
 the stri]>e system might well be adopted? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Theh besides the stripes there is the iirdform. I do not think that 
 from the London postmen we h.ave had any complaint M'ith r-^gard to the uni- 
 form itself ; I do not remember to have heard any complaints with regard to 
 the quality of the uniform supplied? 
 
 A. No, not in regard to the qualit;^' ; the complaints have been more in re- 
 gard to the fit ; the imiform is made too tight for the men to wear com- 
 fortably. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You are aware that a Departmental Committee sat upon 
 that subject and recommended that the uniform should be ma<le looser? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you happen to know whether tli^e new uniforms are more com- 
 forfcible? 
 
 A. I have not lieard ; I have not had any complaints, but I am not quite 
 sure that the recom^nendation of the Committee ca.me in time for the making 
 of last winter's uuiform. Mv o\^^l impression is that it did not. 
 
 The Chairman : Wliat is the amount of uniform given — I do not mean the 
 value, but how often do the men get uniforms? 
 A. They get two suits a year. 
 0. One thick .suit and one thin suit? 
 A. Yes ; and then thev get a greatcoat. 
 Q. How often? 
 A. Every two years.
 
 49A Jasi'er C. Baucock, London. 
 
 Q. And a cape? 
 
 A. 1 think every three years. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : 1 fancy it is every two years. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you have any complaints in London with regard to 
 tho quality of the waterproof capes? 
 
 A. Not recently ; there were many complaints in former years, but I have 
 not seen any since the new pattern was introduced three or four years ago. 
 
 Q. What is your rule with regard to boot allowance for established 
 postmen ? 
 
 A. The boot allowance is a guinea a year. 
 
 Q. Now, besides these various emoluments, are th.ere any allowances 
 given to London postmen? 
 
 A. No ; the only allowance is where a man is acting as JKiad postman ; 
 he gets 3s. a week for supervisior.. 
 
 Q. And that is the onlv special allowance given to postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you formed any opinion as to the possibility of prohibiting 
 Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. Of course it is possible to proliibit them, but I have not formed any 
 opinion as to whether the prohibition would be effective. 
 
 Q. Wlien I say the possibility of enforcing a prohibition of Christmas 
 boxes, I mean a prohibition of solicitation? 
 
 A. Yes ; but whether that would not be evaded to a very great extent 1 
 am not sure. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Do you mean that the solicitation would be evaded? 
 
 A. Yes. 1 am afraid so ; there are many ways of asking for Christmas 
 boxes witliout actually soliciting them. I do not think that a railway 
 ticket collector asks for one, but he becomes uncommonly civil just before 
 Christmas. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Chairman : What proportion of the sorting work do the London post- 
 men perform? 
 
 A. That would differ at the different offices or zones. As a rule the 
 town postman sorts the collection which he brings in : he also performs the 
 London district sorting, and picks out the provincial, Irish, Scotch, and 
 foreign letters ; in some cases he will sort for the railway divisions. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You mean that the town postman sorts the letters he brings 
 in, and does, in fact, the primary sorting? 
 
 A. Y"es ; he does the primary sorting. For instance, in the W.C. Dis- 
 trict the postman bringing in a collection would sort the railway divisions ; 
 he would take out the letters for the N. Western, Midland, Great Northern, 
 the Great Eastern, the South Eastern, and the South Western, etc. ; he 
 %yould also pick out the foreign, the Irish, the Scotch, the Liverpool, 
 Manchester, Birmingham, Brighton, London district and suburban district, 
 and he might also take some other large towns, such as Dublin, Hastings, 
 etc. ; in addition to that he does his own walk-sorting for his own delivery. 
 
 Q. What is done with letters coming into the office? 
 
 A. In the W.C, District Office tliev are divided by the postmen to the 
 respective walks, and arranged for delivery by them. 
 
 Q. Then a great deal of the postman's work is admirable training for a 
 sortership ? 
 
 A. Y''es ; for the simpler forms of sorting work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They do the primary sorting of the letters they collect ; 
 they sort for the London district, and do their own walk-sorting? 
 
 A. Yes ; they do three branches of sorting. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : In fact, a complete sorting of the London letters ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They do the sorting for districts ? 
 
 A. Yes, thev do the sorting for districts j but then they are taken to the 
 despatching .sorter, wlio examines them to ^m that the[f aM all rigUi before 
 they are d^patched-.
 
 The Question of Zones. 49o 
 
 Mr. Walpok : But I wisli specially to refei' to ths provincial sorting — 
 tlifc sorting for railway divisions. 
 
 A. I should like to supplement what I have said about the postmen in 
 zone,s. You understand that a to^m postmaa does no actual despatching 
 work, but in the suburban ofBces m the different zones the case is qmite 
 different. There the postmen deal with all the letters, and all the despatches 
 that are made iroin the office by the postmen themselves. I will take a 
 specimen office. At South Kensington, in Zone 1, the postmen stamp the 
 correspondence collected throughout the day, sort for all London postal 
 districts and railway divisions, select letters, etc.. for local delivery, and 
 for despatch in direct bye-bigs to the following adjacent offices: — Chelsea, 
 Earl's Court, Fulham, West Brompton, Hammersmith, Kensington, Pad- 
 dington, and West Kensington. Now I will take an office in Zone 2. 
 There the postmen stamp all the correspondence collected throughout the 
 day, sort for all London postal districts and railway divisions, select letters 
 for local delivery and for despatch in direct bye-bags to the following ad- 
 jacent offices: — ferixton, Clapham, South Lambeth, Camberwell. and Peck- 
 ham. Clapham is nuich the same ; they send direct bye-bags to Balham, 
 Brixton, South Lambeth, Stockwell, Mitcham, and Sutton. Coming to an 
 office in Zone 3, the postmen stamp all the correspondence collected through- 
 out the day, select letters, etc., for local delivery, and letters out of two 
 collections are also selected for despatch to the adjacent sab-di'^tricts. At 
 Stratford letters for two collections are only sorted for the London postal 
 districts and railway divisions ; at other times they go imsorted to the 
 district offices. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When you say that the postmen at S. Kensington are 
 doing a large amount of sorting work, is it done by the whole force of 
 postmen stationed at Kensington, or by a selected force? 
 
 A. No ; it is done by them indiscriminately. When you come to Zone 
 4 the men at Woodford just sort the letters for the district, and for London 
 forward. Tliese are specimens of the work done in all the London sub- 
 district offices, of which there are about 100. 
 
 The Chairman : And now as to the pay of the auxiliaries ; what is it? 
 
 A. The rate of pa\Tnent is 6d. per hour. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Before we pass away from the sorting, I should like to 
 ask you whether, as you get into the outer zone, the work of the postman 
 is a little simpler than the work of the postm.en in the inner zones? 
 
 A. It is a little simpler because there are not so many direct despatches. 
 
 Q. Quite so. The work of Zones 1 and 2 involves despatching duties 
 which a town postman does not do. Is that so? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And in that respect they have a greater responsibility? 
 
 A. Yes ; but on the other hand town postmen have other important 
 duties, and so, more or less, the one thing is compensated for by another. 
 
 Tlie Chainnan : Now let us come to the question of auxiliary rates of pay. 
 
 A. Yes. The rate of pay for auxiliary postmen between 5 a.m. and 10 
 p.m. is 6d. ])er hour ; between 10 p.m. and midnight it is 8d. per hour, 
 and from midnight till 5 a.m. it is 9d. per hour, and there is a limitation 
 that no man who is brought on duty for a single collection shall be paid 
 less than 6d., or for a single delivery less than Is. 
 
 Q. Are most of the London auxiliaries pretty fully employed? 
 
 A. No ; the rule is not to employ a man more than 5 hours a day. 
 
 Q. Ave most of the auxiliaries employed as much as 5 hours per day? 
 
 A. No, by no means ; many ore employed for only one delivery. 
 
 0. The morning delivery? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me how many in London are employed simply for the 
 morning delivery out of the three thousand odd? 
 
 A. I have not the information with me, but I can put it in.
 
 496 J SPER C. Badcociv, London. 
 
 Ml*. Smith: Is it a rule nob to employ auxiliaries over 5 hours a dav'.' 
 Surely iome are so emj^loyed? We have liuuru evidence to that effect. 
 
 A. That is a survival of the old system. 
 
 Q. They are not new duties then? 
 
 A. No ; with the new duties we confine the work withm the 5 hours 
 ipei' day, and if it is necessary to Avork a man more tliaii 5 hours a day 
 then it is made an established postman's duty. 
 
 Q. And tlien you wouli! tiii it up with otlier work? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are these London auxiliiry duties being done away with? 
 
 A. Yes, at the present time, and tliey would be done away witli at once 
 but for the hardship to the men who have been on them some years. 
 
 Mr. V\'^alpole : But occasionally auxiliaries do more than 5 hours a day, 
 do they not? Take Hampstead, for instance; there are a good many men 
 there wlio are Avorking 6 hours per day, are there not? 
 
 A. Yes, I dare say there were; but when we can find continuous work 
 we ask for authority to employ full-time men, and at once make them 
 estabUshed duties. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Some iuterv^d neee.s3arily takes place before you get tlie 
 authorit}% does it not? 
 
 A. Not a very long one; it is generally given almost at once. 'Whenever 
 we see our way to make a^ full-time duty without any great hardship to the 
 men who have hitherto worked it we do so, and I can get authority for 
 that in a couple of days. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I was going to sisk whether it would be possible to reduce 
 the number of hours stdl ftu'ther, and make the maximum not 5, but 4 or 3. 
 
 A. No ; we reduce the number of auxiliaries as far as we can now, by 
 appointing full- lime men when we can possiblj' do so. 
 
 Q. You are gradually then reducing the maximum number of hours for 
 which the auxiliaries are employed? 
 
 A. Not necessarily ; it may be that v\^e have to employ men on the first 
 delivery in the morning and the last delivery at night, and those two duties 
 occupy nearly 5 hours. 
 
 Q. Then in your opinion it is difficult to go beyond the reduction already 
 made ? 
 
 A. Yes, witlioub having an established force, which would be wasted. 
 
 ;\!r '.Vi'.ip.c : Wouid it be possible for these longer auxiliary duties to 
 be done b_y lelegi'aph messengers? 
 
 A. Yes ; but they would not get adult pay. 
 
 Q. Why not, if they were working 5 or 6 hourr-;. would they not then get 
 full pay? 
 
 A. Five hours would represent 15s. per week. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : And is that not so mnch as he would receive as a tele- 
 graph messenger? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; lis. is the maximum of a telegraph messenger's pay. 
 
 Sir F. Movvatt: What you mean is that it could be done and the imy 
 would be 15s. per week, .and that if a telegraph messenger were temporarily 
 em.piovsd on th.i.^.j k.Tigir hours he would not gat adult; par? 
 
 A. !No ; because he would not be doing a full day's work. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Are these longer auxiliary duties of 5 or 6 hours which are 
 still survivuig at mostly bad hours of the day for lads? Are they very 
 early or late hours? 
 
 A. I think they are not bad. We have endeavoured as much as possible 
 to avoid employing the same men ou the last delivery at night and the 
 first delivery in tlie morning, but there are some cases in which it cannot 
 bs avoided. 
 
 The Chairman: What is the pay of the supem'nv.eraries ? 
 
 A. The sapeinuraeraries were f>aid 18s. per week in the old time, when 
 thej' were supernumerary men, and then a scale was estiiblished giving 
 them an increment of Is. for two years, and now recently i*: h:"; beer. «.x-
 
 Bank Holidays — btiipes for Auxiliaries. 497 
 
 tended to 26s. This has not been done with, as wa^ suggested, the object 
 of taking the wind out of the sails of the witnesses on this point, but it 
 was decided upon before the Committee was appointed. 
 
 Q. What advantage do you give the postmen with regird to liolidays? 
 
 A. Each postman has a fortnight's hohday on full pay, and the holidays 
 are confined within 36 weeks of the year ; they are not taken in the winter 
 months. I think they run into the last week in February and the first week 
 in November, but tliey are practically confined to 8 months. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then tlie postal force of London is better off than the pro- 
 vincial force in regard to the season in which their holidays are taken? 
 
 A. I tliink so. 
 
 The Cliiirinan: Then we have had several complaints about the practice of 
 working Bank Holidays. What is your practice with regard to Bank Holi- 
 days ? 
 
 A. The practice as regards Bank Holidays is that if a man is employed for 
 six hours he i^ granted a day's holiday at some other time, but if he is em- 
 ployed less than six hours he is paid at extra duty r.ites for the time he is 
 actually employed, miless he lihnself wishes to liave tlie time oif instead. 
 
 Q. Do you think there is any objection to paying the men for work done 
 Oil Bank Holidays, if you required their services on such days? Do you 
 seo any objection to giving them pay for it instead of time off afterwards? 
 
 A. Of course the man receives a day's pay uiader any circumstances. 
 
 Q. Do you wish to suggest the giving an additional day's pay? 
 
 A. It is a mere question of expense. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Up to six hours he gets it now? 
 
 A. No ; he gets time off for six hours. 
 
 Q. For six hours he gets it already? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And therefore it is merely a question of extending the system? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpnb : Tl'..^ intention or n Bank Holiday is to give a holiday, is 
 it not? 
 
 A. I thought so. 
 
 Q. We have had couiplaints that wliere a day is given in lieu of Bank 
 Holiday it is given at an inconvejiient time. Is there any rule in London 
 under which when a day is given the man is allowed a choice in mvy way? 
 
 A. No. I think he must take it when the opportunity comes. 
 
 Q. Do you give tliem any notice of the day? 
 
 A. I should think so. 
 
 Q. Do you not happen to know? 
 
 A. I do not. It would be a short notice in any case. 
 
 Wr. Walpole : Then it would not be very coiiveuient to the man ? 
 
 ^^r. L. Smith : Would it not be possible to have a certain minimum notice 
 given ? 
 
 A. Of course it might be arranged that no man should have less than 
 three days' notice. But it might not always be possible to give it. 
 
 Mi\ Walpole: Can you go one better and say 10 days' notice? Are there 
 any cases in which men are allowed to add the Bank Holiday to the end of 
 tjjeir annual leave ? Does that take place in London ? 
 
 A. An order has just been issued that that may be done unless there is 
 any reason to tJie contrary. But the general adoption of such a plan would 
 very mucli interfere with leave duties, as a man might accumulate three 
 or four Bank Holidays and take them in addition to his annual holiday. 
 It ^voul'l mean thiit additionil provision must bj made to cover those days, 
 as it would not be fair to postpone the holiday of the next man due to gol 
 
 The Chairman : At present the avixiliaries have no advantage in regard 
 to stri];)es? 
 
 A. No, sir.
 
 498 Jasper C. Badcock, LodcIoh^ 
 
 Q. Do you see any objection to extending the stripe system to the aux- 
 iliary class? If you do, what is it? 
 
 A. No ; I do not see any objection. The point to V>e consiilered is that 
 an auxiliary only works part time. 
 
 Mr. Waipole : Would you extend it to auxiliaries making only one col- 
 lection or delivery? 
 
 A. I do not see where you are going to draw a line if you extend it -at all. 
 
 Q. Do you think that a man doing one delivery or collection would" liave 
 the same claim to a stripe for 5 years' good conduct as an established man 
 doing full duty? 
 
 A. As regards the good conduct stripe the payment might be adjusted 
 according to the amount of duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Would you say that where a man is employel on the 
 full auxiliary time of 5 hours that that should count towards a stripe? 
 
 A. Yes ; you might give him 9d. instead of Is. a week. And a man 
 doing one delivery or one collection might have 3d. or 4d. It might 1^ 
 adjusted in that way. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Of cour.'^e you see a difficulty in confining the stripe to 
 auxiliaries doing 5 hours, as it would bring great pressure from the men 
 doing 3 or 4- hours to get their duties extended to 5 hours? 
 
 A. Yes ; there would be the same objection to drawing any line between 
 half-time and full-time. 
 
 Q. You are trying to avoid employing auxiliaries for 6 hours ? 
 
 A. Yes. Now you have a definite line that no man not on full duty shall 
 have a good conduct stripe. I do not see how you could draw any other 
 line. 
 
 Su- F. Mowatt : You have a better knowledge of a man's conduct wlicn 
 he is in your employment all day than when you only employ him an hour 
 in the morning or an hour or two late at night? 
 
 A. That is so ; but then you liave only a proportionately bet'Ler know- 
 ledge of his conduct if he is employed 5 hours instead of 1. 
 
 Q. The knowledge would not be so exhaustive, but still it is sufficient. 
 I do not know that there is much difiference between 5 hours and 8 hours? 
 
 A. Very often the man on the shortest time — on the first morning de- 
 livery — is more liable to make late attendances. 
 
 The Chairman : The next point is with regard to sick leave — absence on 
 account of sickness. What are your definite rules on that subject! 
 
 A. The postmen, like all other officers in the Service, are granted sick 
 leave on full pay for six months, and half-par beyond that time. 
 
 Q. What requirement have they to satisfy before you grant sick leave? 
 
 A. A medical certificate has to be sent in immediately a man is absent. 
 He has to give notice of his inability to do duty, and the medical officer 
 of the Department countersigns the certificate if there is no reason for 
 suspicion? 
 
 Q. Has the original certificate to be obtained from the medical officer in 
 charge of the Department, or may a man get it from a private practitioner? 
 
 A, If he gets it from a private practitioner it has to be countersigned bv 
 the medical officer of the Department. 
 
 Q. Does the medical officer visit him at his own house, or must he pnt 
 in an appearance at the office? 
 
 A. Yury often he visits him at his own house. l»ut the rule is that the 
 man must come to see the doctor if he is able to do so. 
 
 Q. Do the same medical officers attend the postmen as attend the sorters? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q._And with regard to shorter mdispositions, what do vou do if a man 
 is off duty for only a day or two? 
 
 A. He gets a certificate in the same way. We must cover everv absence 
 by a medical certificate.
 
 Medical Attendauce and the Eio;ht Hour Day, 499 
 
 Q. And what advantages in the waj^ of medical attendance do you give 
 your men? Do they get free medical attendance? 
 
 A. Yes ; free medical attendance. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And free medicine ? 
 
 A. Yes, of course. 
 
 Q. What are the hours of duty of established postmen? 
 
 A. Eight hours during the day. But lliat is necessarily split up into 
 more or less frequent attendances. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Do you mean 8 hours' actual work ? 
 
 A. Yes ; not more than 8 hours. 
 
 Q. In the case of sorters, does it mean 8 hours' actual work? 
 
 A. ies. 
 
 Q. In the same way — aot including intervals ? 
 
 A. No ; if a man lias continuous employment for eight iiours he has one 
 interval. 
 
 Q. That does not apply to jjostmen? 
 
 A. Well, a postman has an opportunity of getting a cup of tea or some. 
 tiling of that sort. He is not kept hard at it all the time. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I sup])os3 that when o;ie duty begins a short time after 
 the termination of anotlier there is an interval which is counted part of 
 the duty? 
 
 A. Cert;^inlJ^ 
 
 Q. He is not on the stretch the whole time? 
 
 A. No ; any interval less than an hour would be coimted part of the duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Less than an hour ? 
 
 A. Yes, less than an hour ; but then, of course, the man would be ex- 
 pected to do any odd work that might turn up in the time. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you any case of a man who has an interval of as 
 much as 45 minutes counted in his dutv? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Counted in his 8 liom-s? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I think we have had some in evidence here? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so. Of course we~don't let it occur if 
 
 The Chairman: Oh, of course, I know you try to avoid it. (Laughter.) 
 
 A. If a postman is working on continuous work he has to wait for the 
 letter.s to come down for delivery. He would then be doing nothing. Pro- 
 bably the first bags would be sorted off before the second lot arrive, and 
 again the men would have an interval of five or ten minutes. 
 
 Q. Within what range do you endeavour to confine the London post- 
 men's duties — within what range of hours? 
 
 A. The rule is to confine them within 12 hours, and we are working to 
 that as quickly as we can. At the present time out of 5.221 established 
 postmen we have 3,680 whose duties are confined within 12 hours, or 70 
 per cent of the total. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Are vou sure of the number? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. I have it here— 3,934? 
 
 A. That includes the reserve. Between 12 and 13 hours there are 658 
 men ; 13 and 14 hours, 415 men ; 14 and 15 hours,, 197 men ; 15 and 16 
 hours, 134 men ; and over 16 hours, 15 men. I should explain that as 
 regards many of the attendances extending over 12 and under 14 hours 
 there are two attendances only, and the m^n prefer such a duty as that to 
 the more frequent attendances, which would confine it to 12 hours, as it 
 affords them a longer break in the middle of the day. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I presume that the cases where the duty is spread over 16 
 hours the interval for sleep dccura in the middle of the day? 
 
 A, There are only 16 of^tiinm. I canndt explaiji them.
 
 .')()() jAsi'iCJi C. Badcock, London. 
 
 Q. When was this policy of reducing the number of hours for day duty 
 
 to 12 adopted ? 
 
 A. It was one of tlie recommendations of the Postmen's Committee in 
 1891. 
 
 Q. Do you find the opor.ition of the rule makes it difficult to find full-time 
 places for auxiliaries? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. And you tliink the rule creites obstacles? You could repla^je a number 
 of auxiliaries by full-time Tiien if itiwere not for the necessity of confining 
 the duties Avithin 12 hours? 
 
 A. Tliat is so ; decidedly. 
 
 Q. I should like to ask your opinion as to the relative advantage of the 
 two? Take the two rdternatives — confine the duties to 12 hours, or convert 
 more auxiliary duties into full-time dutic-' — which would you prefer? 
 
 A. Officially, or in the interests of the men? 
 
 Q. Both. 
 
 A. I think the best arrangement is the one we are aiming at — to confine 
 the duty to 12 hours. 
 
 Q. You think it woulil lie more advantageous even if it leaves outside 
 the established force a largo number of auxiliaries? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would lessen the benefit to the men if the period over 
 which the 8 hours' attendance is spread were extended from 12 to Iv^ hours? 
 I observe that 658 men work between 12 and 13 hours? 
 
 A. That is where we Inive just exceeded tlie 12 hours. I think that of 
 those 658 men 450 men's duties are under 12^ hours. 
 
 Q. Then in order to materially reduce the number of auxiliaries you 
 would have to spread the hours of duty over 14 or 15 hours? 
 
 A. 15 hours : and not only that, the men would have to make more 
 frequent attendances. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I see. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Do you think that the weight of split duties falls as 
 heavily on the postmen as on the .sorters? 
 
 A. I should think it is about the same. The sorters have only two 
 attendances at most, but the time over Avhich the day's work is spread is 
 longer. Tlie postmen's duties are more frequent, but they are confined 
 to shorter hours. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There is nothing among the postm.en's duties so serious as 
 the early and late attendances of the sort>ers? 
 
 'A. I am afraid we have still some unrevised attendances bub these will 
 be wiped out as op]>ortunity offers. 
 
 The Chairm.an : I take it that on the whole the postmen have not got to 
 attend as early as the sorters? What have you to say to that? 
 
 A. If anything the postmen have not. "in the chief office the sorter.s 
 have to attend at 4 o'clock, whik the postmen do not go in till 5. I beg 
 your pardon; in the E.C.D.O. the postmen go on at 4 as well. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: But the postmen who go on at 4 o'clock in the E.C.D.O. 
 do not work after 8 o'clock at night? 
 
 A. Xo. 
 
 Q. Then the sorters' position is distinctly worse than the postmen's? 
 
 A. Yes ; but against that the postman may have to go on at 4 o'clock 
 in the morning, and may have to do a day' attendance, which the sorter 
 has not. So he would have three attendances against the sorter's two. 
 
 The Chairman : What allowance do you give in respect of night duties ? 
 
 A. To postmen? 
 
 Q. Yes. 
 
 A. A certain number of postmen are employed inside the office at night, 
 and they get 7 hours' attendance against 8. Tliat is the only allowance." 
 
 Q. Do you make a proportion ite allowance when it is not a full duty?
 
 The Providing of ^Substitutes 501 
 
 A. Only when the duty is continuous. 
 
 Q. What are the hours you count as night duties, and in respect of which 
 you make this allowance of one-eighth? 
 
 A. I think the only continuous attendances for postmen are from 10 to 5 
 or from midnight till 7 a.m. 
 
 Q. That is not what I mean. Supposing a man does two or three hours 
 in the night between 10 and 5, would that count for the allowance of one- 
 eighth? 
 
 A. I think no allowance is made for a broken duty of that kind. 
 
 Q. Don't you give a proportionate allowance for hours in the night? 
 
 A. Not as a rule ; but when a postman'.s duties are revised 8 hours is 
 not fully worked up to. 
 
 Q. In the sorters' case do you give that allowance? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so; but even tlu-n we are enlitled to the full 8 hours 
 for split duties. It is only on the sorcers' night duty — a continuous one — 
 that the allowance is made. 
 
 Q. Is it from 10 to 5? Is that the range of hours considered to be night 
 duty? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Ls it not the rule that you do not make any reduction for 
 niglit duty unless it exceeds 2 hours? 
 
 A. No ; I do not think there is any rul3 to that effect. 
 
 The Cliairman : What facilities do you give postmen who wish to ex- 
 change duties among themselves — if a man wants to get off for any reason? 
 Jf he has a friend who will take it do you allow t'lat? 
 
 A. The man has to provide an approved substitute — a mnn who is per- 
 fectly competent to do the work. He has to get the approval of the second- 
 class overseer in the sorting office or t!ie inspector, as the case may be. 
 The superintending officer has discretion to allow it three times in the 
 month, but beyond that number ha h.as to refer the matter to his superior 
 officer. The ins 'ruction is tliat it should always be allowed wiiere satis- 
 factory reasons are shown. • 
 
 Q. Are many such applications made? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ! , 
 
 Mr. Smitli : Who are the substitutes? 
 
 A. They may be auxiliaries or esta-blished postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: It is usuallv another postman, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : The most' frequent cause of complaint is on account of 
 late attendances, I fancy, is it not? The most frequent fault found with 
 the men is tliat they do not attend at the right time? 
 
 A. No ; I do not think that the attendance is so very much worse. 
 
 0. I do not want to put it in that way. But are not more faults found 
 with late attendances th;in with any oth?r kind of irregularities? 
 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. What are the most common irregularities that you complain of? 
 
 A. The mis-delivery of letters. 
 
 Q. You are speaking now of t'le postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. Then there is loitering, and sometimes, though not very fre- 
 quently, a violation of the rule which lays it down that no postman should 
 go into a public-house during his delivery. Then there is the omission to 
 properly endorse letters when the addressees have gone away, and to note 
 removals, etc. Sometimes, too, a man will not follow his delivery on the 
 prescribed route. There are various little things like that. 
 
 Q. W'hat is your system of punishment for these irregularities? 
 
 A. The man' is called upon to explam, and if he does not give a satis- 
 factory explanation he is reprimanded. It is only when the offence is fre- 
 quent that there is punishment by extra duty or in the shape of suspension 
 of pay.
 
 502 Jaspp:r C. Badcock, London. 
 
 Q. Have you any system of fines for irregularities? 
 
 A. No. Except so far as a suspension of pay for a day might be called a 
 
 system of fines. 
 
 Q. Then you do .suspend pay for a day or more? 
 
 A. Yes ; when the offence is a bad one. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : And do you suspend the work at the same time ? 
 
 A. No. (Laugliter.) 
 
 Q. Then that is a fine. 
 
 A. It is very seldom resorted to. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You very seldom suspend except the offence is serious? 
 
 A. Just so. I liave a case here of a man demanding a Cliristmas box 
 in the S.E. District, and I am afraid delaying correspondence because he 
 did not get one. I propose tliat that man's pay sliall be susi^ended for two 
 days to mark the gravity of the offence. It is a serious offence, for which 
 punishment should be inflicted. There is a system of inflicting extra 
 duty without pay as punishment. 
 
 The Chairman : And bssides what tliat involves, there is following it as 
 a consequence of the punishment a probable loss of stripe? 
 
 A. Yes ; a loss of a stripe already granted. 
 
 Q. That is not exactly what I was referring to. I was rather thinking 
 of the grant of the next stripe being defended? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume that a stripe already granted cannot be taken 
 awav without the authoritv of the P.M.G. ? 
 
 A'. No. 
 
 Q. And that would only be done in the case of a very serious offence? 
 
 A. Yes ; the same applies to a suspension of pay. 
 
 The Chairman : What number of irregularities would involve the non- 
 granting of a stripe? 
 
 A. The rule is that a man shall have practically a clean record for 5 
 years. He would l)e judged both by the numl)er of liLs late attendances 
 and the other irregularities which are recorded against him. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Must the clean record be for the 5 previous years, or might 
 it be 4 good years, then a bad one and then a good one? 
 
 A. No ; he must have a fairly clean record for the previous 5 years. 
 
 The Chairman: Who records the various irregidarities ? 
 
 A. One of the clerks in the P.O. or in the sub-controller's office. 
 
 Q. In the first instance, who takes note of them — the hesd oflice, or the 
 particular office to wjiicli the man is attached? 
 
 A. If a man is reported for an irregularity "he is called upon to explain, 
 and if necessary reprimanded or cautioned, and the matter, of course, is 
 entered in tlit conduct record. 
 
 Q. But who reports him in the first place? 
 
 A. It may be a public complaint, or it may be a street inspector or oflScer. 
 
 Q. Have you a system of street inspectors — men going about the streets 
 watching the postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; amongst other duties they do that. 
 
 Q. Are they in uniform? 
 
 A. No. (Laughter.) I have a case here — I will not mention names — of a 
 man riding on a mail van — that is against the rules ; smoking on duty, 
 postcard not properly endorsed, mis-delivery of letters, gossiping in a 
 jmblic-house while on delivery, insolent conduct to one of the public, im- 
 properly endorsing a letter not known although addressed to a numbered 
 court, etc. 
 
 Q. Is that all against one man? 
 
 A. Y"es. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Over what period does that spread ? 
 
 A. Four years. 
 
 Q. Would that involve a loss of stripe? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is a case in point.
 
 Weight on Delivery. 503 
 
 Q. Has that stripe been suspended? 
 
 A. It is being suspended. 
 
 Q. It is not a case of a stripe being taken away? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : No ; a stripe would not be taJien away when once granted 
 except for a more serious offence, would it? 
 
 A. No. Taking away a stripe is regarded as a punishment, while not 
 granting it is a matter of reprimand. That is the distinction we draw. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do the auxiliaries get any holidays ? 
 
 A. No, sir ; except a few of them who are doing full-tune duty. 
 
 Q. Do you see any reason why they should be treated differently in 
 point of holidays from the others? 
 
 A. The only difference is that which applies to the question of the good 
 conduct stripe — you must regulate it according to a man's amount of duty. 
 
 Q. Why so? If a man works 4 hours a day you would be letting him 
 have a fortnight off of 4 hours a day. It would regulate itself in that way. 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so. 
 
 The Chairman : What is your experience of the result of the establishment 
 of the Parcel Post so far as the men are concerned? 
 
 A. In what way, sir? 
 
 Q. Have you found that the men take great objection to Parcel Post 
 work? 
 
 A. There is a certain amount of dissatisfaction at having to deliver parcels 
 with letters, but I am bound to say that I think it is a merely sentimental 
 grievance. ISIany of these small parcels which are now taken out by post- 
 men were, before the Parcel Post was established, sent by letter post or 
 book post. The public now send them by Parcel Post because the rates are 
 cheaper. But it involves extra work for the postmen, because time is 
 allowed for the delivery of these parcels, and if the time were not taken 
 up in that way the walks would be extended. The men would have to 
 give the same time to the delivery of letters. 
 
 Q. In London is it rare among the men under you to have to deliver 
 bulky parcels? 
 
 A. Certainly ; no man takes out a bulky parcel with letters. The rule 
 is that he should not take out more than 5, and the weight of these is not 
 to exceed 11 lbs. He would not take out any bulky or inconvenient parcel 
 which would hamper him in the delivery of letters. 
 
 Q. Have you any rule with regard to the total weight a man is to take 
 out in London? 
 
 A. Of both parcels and letters? Well, that would depend upon how far 
 the man had to carry the lot. For instance, a postman starting from the 
 G.P.O. with a delivery for Paternoster Row would take out almost as much 
 as he could carry. But a man who had to go some distance before he 
 commenced to deliver would be given some allowance for it. 
 
 Q. Do you frequently give assistance to postmen? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; in the City offices there is a reserve of 30 or 40 men ready 
 to give assistance on the first morning delivery. 
 
 Q. Are they generally called upon? 
 
 A. Not to the full extent. I should mention that in the E.C. District 
 a good many postmen decline to ask for assistance when they might fairly 
 ask for it. They seem to prefer to do their work in their own 
 way. I will give the numbers. On the 2nd March (Monday) there 
 were 55 bag carriers supplied. Monday is often a heavy morning. On the 
 next morning there were 6. On the fifth, when there was an American mail, 
 there were 18 ; on the next, when also there was an American mail, there 
 were 21 ; on the Saturday morning, the 7th, there were 19 assistants ; on 
 the ninth (a Monday) there were 41 ; on the 16th there were 61 for bag- 
 carrying alone, besides 113 assistants for the delivery of registered letters. 
 
 Q. When you go into the more remote parts of London does the same rule 
 prevail there? 
 
 A. Tlie question never arises. The loads there never come up to 35 lbs.
 
 504 Jappek C. Badcock. London. 
 
 Q. I was not thinking so much about the total load, but about the 
 difference about parcels? 
 
 A. Oh, yes ; where there are parcels even in the sub-districts to interfere 
 with the due delivery of letters or to incommode the postmen, a special deli- 
 very of parcels would take place, and they would be kept back for the 
 purpose. 
 
 Q. I take it your view is that there is no ground for complaint as to the 
 delivery of parcels? 
 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In London ? 
 
 A. Yes, in London. Evidence was given on that point. I do not know 
 whether you woxdd like me to take that now? 
 
 T!ie Ciiairman : Is it a particular case? I would rather leave that wlien 
 we come to deal with those cases. 
 
 A. One of the witnesses said he h = d to take out 5 pircels everj- morning. 
 
 Q. Was that the experience of Mr. Boaler? 
 
 A. Yes. He said he had to take out 5 parcels with every inoraing walk, 
 and that caused delay. I was rather struck by that evidence, and I got the 
 number of parcels that were taken out on his walk for the three mornings 
 he was relieve:! in order to come here. Take the month of Fel)ruary. Dur- 
 ing that month only onca did he have 5 paresis, tliree times there were 4, 
 six times there wexe 3, eight times there were 2, and six times there were 1, 
 while once there was no puree! a'- all. He complained that the delivery of 
 parcels cau.sed him to finish his delivery later than tlie recognised time of 
 finishing the delivery. The recognised time in a Town district is 8.45, and 
 this witness finished at 8.35 once. 14 times at 8.40, 6 times at 8.45, and once 
 only did he exceed that limit, Avhen he fiuislied at 8.50. On the three days 
 vhat he was relieved from duty in order that he might attend here a sub- 
 stitute who did not know the work was employed in his place, and that 
 substiLute on each occasion finished earlier than he Idmself did any morning 
 in that month. Then he said also that there were a good many parcels 
 brought back. I find that the parcels taken out on the first delivery in the 
 N.W. Town District in that month numbered 3,942, or an average of 154 
 a morning, and as there were 70 postmen to deliver that gives an average of 
 rather more than 2 a beat for each postman. The number brought back 
 during the month, or returned because no answer could be obtained because 
 the house was not open was only 2^1 — that is. 1 in 265 or something of that 
 sort, or less than one each among the 70 postmen. 
 
 Q. Do you often find that the correspondence and letters are damaged 
 by the breaking of boxes containing perishable articles? 
 
 ' A. No ; there is no experience of that sort. It may occasionally hapi:)en, 
 but a postman has no right to take out a bulky parcel or one that he has 
 lenson to think might damage the correspondence. He would be quite 
 within his duty in handing that up to the superintending oflBcer for special 
 delivery. 
 
 Q. You do not get any complaints from the public on that subject? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: But boxes containing flowers, etc., are sometimes 
 smashed ? 
 
 A. Yes. because they are generally packed in such flimsy bo.xes. I tinnk 
 the fault will generally be found in the packing rather than in the treat- 
 ment of tlie boxes. 
 
 Q. Are the general conditions of service of the parcels postman the same 
 as tliose of a letter-carrier? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And are the advantages of all sorts similar? 
 
 A. Yes ; except as to the solicitation of Cliristmas boxes. 
 
 Q. There is a rule specially applied to them. Wliy was it made in their 
 caseT
 
 The Prospect of Promotion. 505 
 
 A. When the Parcol Post was established, and it is to a certain extent 
 the same now, the liniiLs for the parcels delivery were not the same as for 
 the letter delivery. The parcels were delivered from a separate office, and 
 the delivery was extended over a greater area, and it was thought that the 
 public would resent being importuned by two postmen for Christmas boxes, 
 while there might be endless disputes as to one man having got what was 
 intended for another. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And it was tliought also that it was undesirable to extend 
 a system which was not desirable in itself, I presume? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so. The fear was it would double the demand. 
 
 The Chairman: What prospect of promotion has the Loudon postm.an? 
 
 A. I have a note here of the actual promotions of i)ostriien during the 
 three years ended the 31.st December, 1895. when the average force of town 
 postmen was 2,863. There was one 1st class overseersliip, one 2nd class, 
 17 lobby ofiicers, 4 messengers, and 2 he:id postmen. Among the suljurban 
 postmen, who numbered 2.090, there was 1 lobby officer and 6 head post- 
 men. Besides this, 160 town postmen and 8 suburban postmen were made 
 2nd chss sorters durmg the three years, after a limited competitive examina- 
 tion. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: A definite number of sorters' places are kept open for them? 
 
 A. Yes ; one-fourth of the vacancies. Of course, you will understand 
 that it is the juniors who generally get these, so it is hardly promotion. 
 
 The Chairman: Is it not worth tlie while of a senior to take such a 
 position? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But still it is an opening for the more intelligent junior 
 men? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairm.an : And yet you think the duties of a postman are equal in 
 importance to those of a sorter? 
 
 A. Yes ; a 2nd class sorter. 
 
 Q. Therefore it would not really be an opening for the more intelligent 
 men, but an opening for everybody who was capable of performing a post- 
 man's duty? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It would be for the more intelligent because they have 
 to pass a competitive examination. 
 
 A. And they would he young men who have only just left school. 
 
 The Chairman: A postman has not, as a matter of fact, got a veiy great 
 chance of getting out of his own rank? 
 
 A. He has not. 
 
 Q. What is your view of the effects of the em-ployment of a postman on 
 his general health? 
 
 A. I do not think that a postman suffers more from sickness than any 
 other class of P.O. o?3cials. It may be he has a Utile more rheumatism, 
 but I think the average sickness is much about the S3,me as every other 
 class. It is slightly higher, I think. 
 
 Mr. Smith : About the system of sick pay to the auxiliiries — do they have 
 no pay when sick? 
 
 A. Not as a rule. 
 
 Q. Would it not be possible to have a proportionate sick payment in 
 their case? 
 
 A. In exceptional cases we give them two-tliirds sick pav. 
 
 Q. What kind of case constitutes an exceptional case? 
 
 A. Well, an auxilinry who is broken down and is laid up and has nothing 
 to live on. 
 
 Q. That would be treated quite as a special case? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And rather as a compassionate nllowance? 
 
 A. Yes.
 
 506 Jasper C. Badcock, London. 
 
 Q. It is merely a question of cost whether he should have it? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not see any difficulty in the way otherwise? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Of course a man in ordinan^ employment might run the risk and be 
 more liable to sickness? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Of course he might contract a sickness which might be attri- 
 butable to his other employment, and then he would ^^'ant to be paid by 
 the P.O. ? 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : I wanted to ask you the reason of taking Woolwich out 
 of the London district? 
 
 A. That is rather ancient history. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. But still a complaint has been raised. It is a typical case. 
 
 A. There are otlier suVmrban districts which possibly might be included 
 ^\ithin the London zone and are not. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It wa.s not taken out alone ? 
 
 A. No; other places were taken out? 
 
 Q. Woolwich, Croydon. Sutton, and Mitcham? 
 
 A. Yes. I thinlv the fact was that the area of London liad become too 
 large for one control. 
 
 The Chairman : It was not a question of the difference in the work? 
 But the- effect of taking these districts out of London management was to 
 reduce the rate of wages paid to the postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; but at the same time the sorting work, which is done by Lon- 
 don postmen is done at Woolwich by sorting clerks, who are paid more 
 highly for it than is paid for the same work to London postmen. It is 
 not a loss to Woolwich, although it may be to the postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The postmen at Woolwich are not doing such high-class 
 work as the London postmen? 
 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Sir F. Mo watt : Did the change affect the men who were serving at the 
 time the change was made? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 ;Mr. Smith: Wlmt is the maximum of tlie Woolwich postmen? 
 
 The Chau-man : 17s. bv Is. to 28s. The postmen in adjacent London 
 districts begin at 18s. and hnve a higlier maximum. The real object then, 
 Mr. Badcock. was to relieve the London office of work which was growing 
 too much for it? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume that the work in London does not grow lighter ? 
 
 A. Certainly not. 
 
 Q. Do you think we ought to avoid anything to increase the work? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Is it a fact that North Woolwich is within the London postal 
 district, and there the maximum is 36s. ? 
 
 A. North Woolwich is a different district to Woolwich itself in the way 
 of rents, etc. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I should like to take you back and ask you a single 
 quastion in order that we may be quite clear as to the meaning of an answer 
 you have already given, namely, the answer in which you said I think, that 
 the duties of town postmen were as important and as responsible as those 
 of 2nd class sorters? 
 
 A. Yes 
 
 Q. Do you mean that you think the entire advantages of the one class 
 should equal the advantages of the other, or were you speaking onlv with 
 reference to the .scale of salary received by each, for, of course, the town 
 postman has stripes and boot money, etc., which the sorter has not? The 
 point I wanted tf) get at was whether we should understand the effect of vour
 
 The 40s. Maximum. 507 
 
 recommendation to be that the combined advantages of all sorts of the one 
 class should be equal to the combined advantages of the other class, and 
 that you were not sjieaking merely of the rate of wage paid to each? 
 
 A. As regards the boot question, I think the advantage is rather on the 
 side of the sorter ; I don't think that the guinea a year which is given 
 to the postman quite compensates him for the excessive use and wear of 
 shoe leather due to his calling, so I think that question might be left out of 
 account, init I should certainly not propose the full scale of 40s. witli stripes. 
 
 Q. Speaking generally, you thouglit that the total advantages of the one 
 class should be about equivalent to the total advantages of the other class? 
 
 A. That is so, having regard to tlie 1)00t allowance l)eing jjeculiar to the 
 postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The 2nd class sorter gets a blouse. I suppose the uniform 
 would represent something like Is. a week to the postmen, whereas it 
 Avould be a little less in the case of the blouse for the sorter? 
 
 A. It would ; but I think the blouse sufficiently protects the 2nd class 
 sorters' private clot'hes, so that there is not much difference on that score. 
 Tiie postman would only use his uniform when he was on duty, and there- 
 fore he would probably have as much use for his own personal clothing as 
 the 2nd class sorter would have. 
 
 Q. Do you suppose that a postman only wears his uniform when he is 
 on duty? 
 
 A. I find that all the postmen witnesses here attended in mufti. 
 
 The Chairman : Now we will run through the evidence. If I pass any 
 point you wLsh to remark upon just stop me. There are two or three little 
 points upon Avhich I understand you can give some evidence with regard 
 to memorials as to sanitation of some of the offices? 
 
 A. There are two offices mentioned — Sydenham and Anerley — where the 
 w.c. accommodation is somewhat defective ; in both these cases arrangements 
 are now being made to build new offices ; the Sydenham office was one 
 which we were obliged to rent ; it was the best we could get at the time, 
 l)ut ground has been acquired, and oMier arr^ncfements are Ijeing made for 
 a new office there. At Anerley the present office is provided by the town 
 sub-postmen, and there also we have acquired a site and are about to build 
 a new office. Something was said about the office at Maida Hill, which 
 was mconveniently situated on the first floor of a mews, but there also a new 
 office has been provided, and it was actually occupied last Monday. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That is a fine office? 
 
 A. Yes ; a very nice office indeed. In all the new offices they are biuld- 
 ing the sanitary arrangements are of the most perfect description, as they 
 are not built as" temporary stop-gaps, but so that they may last many years. 
 
 The Chairman : I think some evidence was given with regard to the 
 offices at Notting Hill, West Brompton, and South Kensington? 
 
 A. At Notting Hill the men lived so close to the office that the kitchen 
 in that office is very little made use of, and at West Brompton the case is 
 somewhat similar. With regard to South Kensington, we have acquired a 
 new site in Queen's Gate on which to build a new office. Concerning the 
 case of Holloway Sorting Office there was some swamping and flushing on 
 account of some defective drain in the street, but that occurred also in 
 other places in the immediate neighbourhood, and not onlj^ in the Post 
 Office. I should say that this question of sanitary accommodation in the 
 offices has been taken up very promptly of late years, and very gi-eat im- 
 provements have been made. The offices now being provided are quite ade- 
 quate for the work, and have all proper sanitary conveniences and improve- 
 ments up to date. 
 
 The Oliairman : Mr. Churchfield in his evidence laid great stress on the 
 number of registered letters that London postmen have to deal with. It 
 seems to me he speaks of a very large number?
 
 508 Jaspicr C. Badcock, LrmdoD. 
 
 A. I think it is also repeated by Mr. Herbert in the last day's evidence. 
 b'.it the statement that the postmen have hundreds of registered letters is 
 quite an exaggeration ; Avlie.. there is a large number to deliver they are 
 sent out specially, and in sucli a case the poptman who takes tliem has 
 no other letters to deliver. The statement vras. I think, that postmm 
 sometimes had as many a.^ a hundred registered letters to deliver in ;.dd'- 
 tion to their ordinary mail matter. I 6nd that the number of registered 
 letters for the first delivery in the City is about 2,700. and there are 332 
 postmen employed in the delivery, so that it would work out at an average 
 of about 8 i)er man. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I suppose the number would be very unevenly distribute!'; 
 
 A. Certainh', that would be so. 
 
 Q. A man miglit have as many as 30 registered letters in some walks, I 
 presume ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but where a man had so many as 30, many of tlsem would be 
 v.'hat we call listed — that is, entered in a list and tied up in one bundle j-s 
 one delivery, so that he could not treat them as separate rogistsred lette"s. 
 I have a stat-ement of a day's delivery of registered letters ajid the number 
 of men on each walk. The highest number is in the Lothbrny walk, where 
 there were 146 registereil letters divided amongst five postmen. 
 
 Q. That would bring up the avertge in that case to about 30 each per 
 man ? 
 
 The Chairman : But might thev nob be rather unevenlv distributed in the 
 walk? 
 
 A. No ; they are pretty evenly distributed in such a walk, but in Bar- 
 tholomew Square there were only 4 registered letters amongst 4 men de- 
 livering, whilst in Bunhill Fields there was only 1 registered letter amongst 
 4 m.en delivering. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. I think the same witness (Mr. Churchfield) drew a comparison between 
 the wages of park-keepers and postmen. Have you looked into that at all? 
 
 A. Yes ; at the time the announcer.i/ent was made as to the minimum 
 wage of 24s. a week to men employed at the parks. I got information from 
 the OflEice of Works as to what that really meant, and I was told that the 
 announcement applied to labourers and not to park-keepers. The memoran- 
 dum which I got from the Office of Works is as f ollovrs : — 
 
 WAGES OF LABOURERS. 
 
 "Hitherto these labourers (some 400) have been paid from 3s. to 3s. 9d. 
 or 4s. per day. according to their skill. There havs. been a few piid from 
 2s. to 4s. per week more as gingers, and about 8 foremen paid from 30s. 
 to 53s. per week. There has been no regular increm_ent for labourers, and 
 no sca.le of pay, and no limits of age. Labourers have no right to pension. 
 If invalided a-fter 15 years' continuous service a griatuity is granted of one 
 week's pay for each year of service (under S. 4 of Super. Act, 1887). The 
 daily hours are those of ordinary horticultural and gardening establishments 
 (more than 8 hours certainly), the Saturday half -holiday, the Bank Holidays, 
 and two days extra annually are given. 
 
 Sick pay is allowed as follows: — ^Under 1 year's service, nil; over 1 
 and under 10 years' service, half-pay; and over 10 years' ser^-ice, three- 
 fourths pay. 
 
 The work done is the rough and unskilled work of the parks, e.g.. digging, 
 wheeling, road-mending. These men are constantly coming and going. 
 It has just been decided that the minimum pay in future shall be 4s. per day 
 (24s. per vreek) in London, and 3s. 6d. jjer day in the suburban parks. 
 This will practically lie the maximum pay also. The other cii'cumstances 
 of the employment are unchanged. These m.en are. it will be seen, in a 
 very different position from pensionable Post Office men on scales of pay."
 
 The Probation Question. ;")09 
 
 I find also that the pay of the park-keepers is very dififerent. The fol- 
 lowing is the coininiinication which I received from the Office of Works 
 on that subject : — 
 
 "PARK-KEEPERS (ENGLAND). 
 
 1. The park-keepers in the Royal Parks under the Office of Works are 
 cliosen from ex-scrgeiints of the army, or of corresponding rank in the navy, 
 ur.der 45 years of age. 
 
 2. Their duties are to enforce the rules, under the Parks Regulation Act, 
 and are also indicated in the annexed code of regulations. The liours vary 
 v.ith the season, hjing about 60 hours per week ; l)ut this is a rough 
 estimate. 
 
 3. The emoluments are as follows : — 
 
 (a) Uniform. 
 
 (b) Lodge.s — for a small number only, however. 
 
 (c) Wages (leaving out of consideration a few men appointed by the 
 
 Ranger of Hyde Park and Richmond Park). 
 
 (1) In Hyde Park, Kensington Gardens, and the St. James's 
 and Green Parks, 25s. por week— increased from 24s. 
 iu 1889 on account of the greater expense of houses for 
 these men. 
 - (2) In the other parks 24s. per week. The wages of the Kew 
 Girden park-keepers were increased from 20s. to 22s. in 
 1893, and then to 24s. in 1895. The Kew men are non- 
 pensionable. 
 
 (d) Pensions — under the Superannuation Acts. 
 
 (4) Sick pay is granted, with free medical attendance, under the following 
 conditions: — Uutl^'r 1 year's service, nil; over 1 and under 10, half-pay; 
 over 10. three-fourths pay — for a period not exceeding two months in any 
 year. 
 
 5. Ordinary leave is as follows: — Six week days; one Sunday in four off 
 duty, and in consideration of Sunday duty, one day's leave out of 28 work- 
 ing days ; the Bank Holidays (or days in lieu). 
 
 6. There are in England 3 inspectors (at £91 per annum), 7 sergeants 
 (4 at 27s., 5 at 30s. per v.^eek), promoted from the park-keepers ; 97 park- 
 keepers." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : So that both as to duty and pay tlie position of a park- 
 keeper is inferior to that of a London postman? 
 
 A. Very much, I think. 
 
 The Chairman : Is there anything else you wish to say before we. go on 
 to the zone question? 
 
 A. Well, a question was asked whether many men failed at the end of 
 their probation. 1 have got particulars of 590 postmen who have been 
 appointed at the chief office since August, 1891, and only 7 vrere rejected 
 on medical grounds at or near the end of the two years' probations. That 
 is 1.18 per cent. The question was as to the permanency of service owing 
 to two years' probation. 
 
 Q. A witness gave some instances of anomalies ui the zone system, and 
 illustrated his point by supposing that this Committee got into an omnibus 
 drive on IJrompton Road, wliere different wages might be paid for de- 
 livering letters on tlie two sides of the road, or at the end of the road, as 
 compared with the beginning. He said that on one side the delivery was by 
 a town postman with a maximum of 34s., on the other side the postman's 
 maximum was 32s., while in Fulliam Road it was 30s.? 
 
 A. Ye.s ; but these differences are due to the varvang cost to the men of 
 providing tl^mselves with lodgings. In this particular case at the end of
 
 510 Jasper C. Baocock. LoikIom. 
 
 such a Id. oniuihns drive tlie passenger would be in tlie Fulliani District, 
 where the postman lives near las office, whereas lie niij^ht start his Id. 
 <!rive from a town district, where men had to live iieurlv 3 or 4 miles from 
 their office. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : .As a matter of f;ict. would not the men delivering on both 
 sides of the Brompton Road be ]);iid the same rate? 
 
 The Chairman : The witness said not. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I have the maj> here, and I think it is so. 
 
 A. There might be some overlupjiing boundary. 
 
 Q. But, .speaking broadly, lii-y would be ])aid the .same rale on both 
 sides of the road? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then it is not tlie case that tlie men iiught be [i.iid 34s. on one side 
 .and on the other 32s. ? 
 
 A. Perliaps what the witness meant was that a delivery at No. 23 miglit 
 be at one rate and at 25 at anotiicr rate. There might be imiiualitics in 
 the numbering of the road ; that is, the odd numlters might not Ije exactly 
 opposite the even nund)ers on the other side : in fact. I V»elieve they are 
 not. There may be something in that. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn vSmith : In any cas2. whether or not this happens, if you 
 have zones you must have some point at wliich the line has to be drawn? 
 
 A. Yes ; t! e line must be drawn somewhere. 
 
 My. Walpole : T was rathei^ impressed with wliat you said as to the 
 case of Notting Hill, which is in Zone 1. You said that tliere the men 
 live close to the office? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is the cise. Notting Hill is a district that has, I think, 
 gone down very much, and many of the large houses are now let in floors. 
 Perhajis at the time when Kotting Hill was included In Zone 1 there were 
 reasoas for that whicli do not exist now. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you anything to say with regard to the number of 
 duties in the E.C. District, and also in tlie Hampstead Division? 
 
 A. As reg.irds the E.C. District. I should sav that the existing plan of 
 workmg the postmen's duties was based mainlv upon proposals put for- 
 ward by the men them.selves as to what would be to tliem the most accep- 
 table method of working. Their proposals were not adopted in their en- 
 tirety, but an endeavour was made to work as closely as practicable on the 
 lines they suggested. Instances were given in evidence where certain 
 sections were stated to attend at the office at 5 a.m. and to continue, with 
 some intermissions, till 7.30 or 8 p.m.. covering a period of 15 hours, but I 
 find on looking into the matter that the whole time actually worked by 
 these sections is 7 hours a day. Another attendance mentioned is from 
 5 to 7.30 a.m.. and from 2.30 to 8 p.m.. tlie whole time covered being 15 
 hours, but this is one of the cases where the men preferred two attendances, 
 although extending over a longer time, to confining the day's work within 
 a narrower compass with more frequent attendances. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I should like to ask you on that point, do you think that 
 this is a very obiectionable duty from 5.30 to 7.30. and from 2.30 to 8? 
 It extends over 15 hours certaiiiiy, but it appears to me a duty that many 
 men would like? 
 
 A. It gives a man the opportunity of doing something else in the middle 
 of the day and also late in the evening, while still leaving him time for 
 sleep. He would liave considerable leisure. 
 
 Q. I was rather asking you with reference to Mr. Llewellyn Smith's 
 question as to whether a 12 hours' limit could be always maintained? 
 
 A. It is only in the E.C. District, and perhaps in the W.C. District, 
 that you could provide work for the men which would occupy the 8 hours 
 in two attendances, but that would never apply in the suburbm oflSces. 
 Where it cannot be done I see no objection to extending two duties over 
 15 hours.
 
 The Twelve Hour Day. 511 
 
 Q. Where the work of postmen can be conccntratscl in two attendances 
 you see no objection to extending it beyond tlie 12" hours — say to 14 or 
 even 15 hours? 
 
 A. No ; because there is sufficient interval between the two attendances 
 to admit of rest or recreation. I should mention in regard to the ilhistra- 
 tion from Hampstead that the whole of the duties t'^.ere are under revision, 
 and a proposal is before the Treasury which, if sanctioned, will provide that 
 54 of established postmen will complete their day's work within 12 hours, 
 6 within 13 hours, and 17 within 14 hours, whilst only 4 will range be- 
 yond 14 hours. An illustration was also given a.s regards Kilburn, where 
 the hours were in some cases said to extend beyond 15|. The duties there 
 are also under revision ; the proposals are well advanced, and if carried 
 out as now arranged all the estttblished postmen at Kilburn will have their 
 work confined within 12 hours. 
 
 The Cliairman : You are endeavouring to bring all witliin the 12 hours as 
 far as possible? 
 
 A. Tliat is so. There are 108 districts and sub-districts, and the diffi- 
 culty is that all the revisio'is cannot be done at once ; they all take time. 
 
 Q. Complaint has been made that an allowance that used to be made at 
 Christmas or at times of exceptionally heavy work has been withdrawn? 
 
 A. I don't think that is the case. On one occasion, 4 or 5 years ago, 
 when it was a very bitter winter, just at Cliristnias-time, when the snow 
 was very deep on the ground, an arrangement was made that the men 
 should be paid for protr:icted attendance at the extra duty rate, but that was 
 quite an exceptional arrangement. It applied to the delivery on New Year's 
 Eve and on New Year's morning, which were very protracted. That is 
 always the case more or less. That has been met for many years bj^ an 
 additional allowance of 6d. where necessary to all men employed on these 
 deliveries, and that is what was done last year, with the proviso that the 
 6d. was not to be paid where the duty was not protracted. An instance 
 was quoted as regards Kentish Town, and I find tliat in that sub-dustrict 21 
 men were on duty for the last delivery on New Year's Eve; 6 completed their 
 duty within the fixed time before 10, and the other 15 between 10 and 11. 
 With regard to tlie first delivery on New Year's Day, 33 men were em- 
 ployed. One finished within an hour after the appointed time, 9 within an 
 hour-and-a-quarter, 8 within an hour-and-a-half, 9 within an hour-and-three- 
 quarters. and only six were more tlian that, but less than two hours late, 
 so that there was no very s-rious prolongation as a Avhole. 
 
 0. No man was more than 2 hours late? 
 
 A. No ; although mention is made by witness of a case where a man was 
 3 hours late. 
 
 Q. Complaint was made, I think, by the same witness Avith regard to the 
 delivery of circulars, wliich he thought a hardship. Do you often find 
 that great stress is put on the men bj^ the delivery of circulars? 
 
 A. No ; the delivery of circulars is part of the ordinary duty of the post- 
 men, but where there is very great pressure of circular work a special 
 delivery of the circulars ought to be made so as not to delay the postmen 
 in the completion of his ordinary deliveries. That rule, so far as I know, 
 is always acted upon, but it is unreasonable to expect that all circulars 
 shall be excluded from the delivery. 
 
 Q. I understand the men have only to take a certain proportion of cir- 
 culars, and that when there is really an overwhelming proportion of them 
 an extra man is put on the work? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : A postman lias in ordinary course to t^ke an average pro- 
 portion of circulars, but when there is an exceptional quantity you assist 
 him? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do I understand tliat when he has to deal with an extra 
 quantity he has a paid assistant? 
 
 A. No : tliey are scut out by anotlier man by a special delivery.
 
 Jasper C. Badcock, London, 
 
 Q. Does the man have an additional deliver}' — one for letters and the 
 
 other for circulars? 
 
 A. Tlie same man may come back in time to get them, or another man 
 may ba put on to do it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If he did, it would be done within his 8 honrs' 'I'Ky, or 
 else he would be paid extra for it? 
 
 A. Yes : certainly lie would V)e paid for it. 
 
 The Chairman : One of the witnesses on behalf of the auxiliaries (Mr. 
 Wilson) pressod very much for the abolition of auxiliuries altogether, and 
 thought the whole work should be done by est'iV)]ished men? 
 
 A. Everything that can be done to create a full day's duty is done, but 
 the number of men employed on the first delivery in the morning, and on the 
 last in the evening, is so very niucli greater thnn those employed at other 
 parts of the day that it is necessarj' to employ piu-t-time men. Take for 
 instance, tlie case of Hampstead itself, of which ifr. Wil?on was speaking. 
 On the first deliverv 72 men are engaged, on tr.e 2nd 17, on the 3rd 20, on 
 the 4tli 19, on the' 5th 18, on the 6t;li 22, and on the last 52, so that it is 
 impossible to spread the atvendances of these men e'jually over the whole 
 day and have full-time men on all the deliveries. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : How long do the auxiliaries v.'ork at Hamp.stead ? 
 Are they chiefly 5-hours' men? 
 
 A. I have not that information at hand at the moment. 
 Mr. Walpole : .At present there is a large force of auxiliaries at Hamp- 
 stea.d whom we are trying to get rid of to a great extent. 
 
 A. That is so. The present numbers at Hampstead are 42 established 
 men and 75 auxiliaries, but under the proposal we have made the number 
 of auxiliaries would be reduced to 52, and the number of established men 
 increased from 42 to 55. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Could you t^ll in regard to the 52 auxiliaries left 
 whe'her they would ba eniployed chiefly on single d:-liveries or would they 
 have two deliveries? 
 
 A. I think perhaps on two deliveries. 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Morning and evening? 
 A. Xot nece.=:sarily. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They would be employed three or four hours a day on the 
 average ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. The 76 auxiliaries were employed considerably more than that time? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Sinitli : So that by the revision you reduce not only the 
 number of your auxiliaries but the average duration of their duty? 
 A'- this stage Mr. Wilson asked to be allowed to correct the witness. 
 The Chairman : Xo, no ; you have had your turn. It is Mr. Badcock's 
 now. 
 
 Mr. Wilson : W^ell what he says conveys a very wrong impression of the 
 real facts. 
 
 Witness (replying to Mr. Smith's question) : I should not like to say that, 
 but I could put in a copy of the present and proposed working. 
 
 The Chairman : Even under your new scheme the proportion of auxiliaries 
 to establi.shed men in that district is very gre^t? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is accounted for bv the large number who have to be 
 employed on the morning and night deliverv. 
 
 Q. How is it you are able t-o dispense with a comparatively large number 
 of the auxiliaries in the central part of London? 
 
 A. Because the collections and deliveries are so much more frequent. In 
 the E.C. Distiict, for instance, ws have no auxiliary postmen, but during 
 the busy part of the day there is a collection every half-hour, so that we 
 can employ a large number in the first delivery and then work t'-em f 
 the rest of their time almost continuouslv in collection, besides which th: :
 
 H. M. Wilson's Declaration of Employment. 513 
 
 is a large amount of indoor work, the correspondence brought in by the 
 liostmen being sorted by the postmen themselves. Tliey can thus be 
 employed usefully indoors. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The greater number of collections and deliveries in the 
 course of the day make it easier to employ full-time men? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so. 
 
 Q. Therefore the nearer you get to the centre of the town the easier it 
 Ls to make full-time duties? Is that so? 
 
 A. Yes, that is so ; assuming, of course, that the correspondence is equal 
 in proportion. 
 
 Q. Mr. Wilson says that wlien he was appointed an auxiliary he had no 
 recollection of signing a form ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I have here the form which he signed on the 26th of March, 
 1879. It is as follows : — 
 
 "I, Henry Mark Wilson, having been appointed auxiliary letter-carrier 
 at ITampstead, with wages of 12s. 6d. a week, am fully aware that no ad- 
 vantage or payment other than these wages attaches to the appointment ; 
 that my services may be discontinued at any moment, and that, when dis- 
 continued, whether after a short or a long period, they will give no claim 
 whatever to another appointment, compensation, gratuity, or pension ; also 
 that on leaving the Service I must return the official uniform supplied to me. 
 In token that I fully understand, and agree to these terms of employment, 
 I hereto set my name, and in doing so I do also declare that I liave other means 
 of subsistence than those to be derived from my appointment as auxiliary 
 letter-carrier." 
 
 The Chairman : You had better hand that statement to Mr. Wilson. 
 He may like to see it. 
 
 Q. When Mr. Wilson said lie had signed no such paper as that his re- 
 collection was at fault? 
 
 A. I think so. But not only that, he also said that " is rather more ex- 
 plicit than was told me when I entered the Service. I had no such paper." 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : It was suggested to us that this was iiot a guar- 
 antee that the man had other employment, because although he might 
 originally liave had other employment and had fallen out of it, it was too 
 much to expect that he should record that against himself, with the con- 
 sequent prospect of losing his Post Office employment? 
 
 A. There is, no doubt, a good deal of temptation on that score, but the 
 mere fact that a man was temporarily out of other employment would not 
 be allowed to stand against him. 
 
 Q. Do you think, as a matter of fact, that the mere signing of that paper 
 is any guarantee to the Post Office that the auxiliary really has any other 
 employment? 
 
 A. t think it is to a certain extent. 
 
 Q. Can you see any other method of arriving at the same result? 
 
 A. Not unless by a more inquisitorial investigation. 
 
 Q. You do not think any other means than requiring such a declaration 
 should be taken? 
 
 A. I think not. 
 
 The Chairman : Reference was made to the case of Joseph Noyes as one 
 of considerable hardship? 
 
 A. It is a case of hardship, inasmuch as a part-time man when he be- 
 comes unfit for further service has no claim for pension or gratuity. This 
 man was kept on imtil com])laints were received from the public more than 
 once of the inefficient way in which his duty was done, and, in the end, 
 although he was kept on "as long as possible, there was no alternative but 
 to get rid of him. From the Controller the Postmaster was requested 
 several times to keep him on and give him another chance, but the Post- 
 master at last reported that he was so infirm as to be absolutely incapable 
 of discharging his duties. So we had to dispen.se with his services. 
 
 R
 
 514 Jasper C. Bapcock, London. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then, in the Postmaster's opinion, the man was not a hale 
 man for his age, or as capable as Mr. Wilson said he himself was for his 
 work? 
 
 A. There is some conflict of opinion upon that point between Mr. Wilson 
 and the Postmaster. 
 
 The Chairman: As a matter of fact, is a man retired at 50? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. At 65? 
 
 A. Not even at 65 if he is able to do his duty. 
 
 Q. The 65 age rule is not applied to postmen? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Then you do not accept the statement that this man was 
 told that he must retire because he was over 60? 
 
 A. Yes ; he was told tliat under a misapprehension, but that misappre- 
 hension was at once corrected. 
 
 Q. But the witness stated that the reason given was simply that he was 
 over 60 years of age. 
 
 A. The Postmaster, on the 7th July. 1891, reported that Noyes was 
 over 60 years of age, and that, as he was not performing his duties in a 
 satisfactory manner, his services must be dispensed with. On the 22nd 
 July the Postmaster was told by the Controller, " I think we may continue 
 Noyes' employment yet a little longer, notwithstanding his having reached 
 the age of 60. Let it make no difference as far as age is concerned." And 
 so it went on, the Postmaster trying to get rid of him, and the Controller 
 trying to keep him out of mercy, imtil it was reported that he was ab- 
 solutely inefficient. 
 
 Sir F. !Mowatt : Then take the case of Whickers. He, too, had to resign 
 we are told? 
 
 A. Yes ; but he was kept on till he was 76. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Till he was 76? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. He was an old pensioner when he began, was he not? 
 
 A. Yes. He was over 72. 
 
 The Chairman : The witness Wilson also said that at Hampstead the 
 army reserve men did not sign the paper you have quoted in his case? 
 
 A. I have here the papers signed by all the army reserve men employed at 
 Hampstead. 
 
 Q. How many signed papers have you there? 
 
 A. Forty-two papers signed by 22 men. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Some men have signed m.ore than one paper ? 
 
 A. Yes ; when any change is made in their duty or pay they sign a fresh 
 declaration. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : It was said they had not signed these papers till 
 5 months ago, when the papers were sent round to them, but that nothing 
 of the kind was signed by them when they entered the Service. Is it a fact 
 that they were only signed 5 months ago? 
 
 A. The first of them came in April, 1892, and signed declaration on the 
 11th of that month. Others signed in November, 1894 (when their wagres 
 were altered from 15s. 9d. to 16s.), Mav, 1892, Jime, 1892. December, 1892, 
 and October, 1892. etc. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then Mr. Wilson's evidence on that point was quite in- 
 accurate ? 
 
 A. Yes ; quite. 
 
 The Chairman : Reference was made to the case of a man who came inio 
 the Service as an auxiliary at 15s. per week, but was said to have been led 
 to believe that at the end of 12 months he would receive an established 
 appointment. Is that the fact? 
 
 A. Yes. The man, whose nnme is Kitchen, adheres to the stateme;it tlrit 
 he was misled at the Army Recruiting Office, but he acknowledged that 
 he was not misled in any way at the district post office. He asserts that
 
 The Hackney Case. olo 
 
 lie was told that lie might obtain an established appointment in his oi'Ier; 
 but he found that the number of men in front of him was so large that his 
 order was a long way off. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : So he had fair warning? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 yir F. Mowatt : Before he joined? 
 
 A. Before he joined. He "says he went to the district office, and wr.s 
 told he would get his appointment in order of seniority. He understood 
 that to be about a year, but I am satisfied that no such defiaile pi-nmise 
 was made, it being well known that there were a number > i au.xiliaries 
 waitins; for appointment, as well as a number of telegraph messengers, so 
 tha-v it would not be at all likely for Kitchen to obtain an appointment for 
 a long time to come. He admitted that a few days after taking his ap- 
 pointment he saw from the great number of auxiliaries in front of him that 
 it would not be possible for him to obtain an established appointment 
 within a year, and then he did not think it worth while to write about 
 the matter. He makes no complaint now, and is annoyed at his case being 
 brought before the Committee. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Was it not brought before the Committee with his 
 authority? 
 
 A. It comes to this — ^he states that his grievance was " fished " for. 
 
 The Chairman : And now I come to the Hackney case, where it -vwas 
 stated that certain duties were performed, and that the men were not paid 
 in respect of them. 
 
 A. That was entirely owing to a misiuiderstaiiding. I examined into the 
 whole auxiliary duties at Hackney, and found that the proper rates were 
 being paid. You will remember that when I was giving the rates of pay 
 to auxiliary postmen. I said the rule was that they were to receive not 
 less than 6d. for an isolated attendance for collection, and not less than Is. 
 for a delivery. The men employed on continuous work at Hampstead have 
 construed that as a condition that they should be paid 6d. for each collec- 
 tion, and Is. for each delivery inst-ead of on the time rate. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In the «ise of a continuous collection extending over two 
 or three hours, you will pay on the time rate? 
 
 A. Yes, that 'was the intention, and that was Avhat was being done in 
 every other district in London, including Hampstead, where, according to 
 the 'witness, the auxiliaries were satisfied with their rates of pay. 
 
 The Chairman : Has this been explained to the Hackney men since the 
 evidence was given? 
 
 A. Yes, and before. It is right I should say I believe that the witness 
 Wilson gave this evidence in good faith, and that he was supplied with in- 
 correct information. 
 
 Q. Now I will come to the case of Powell and Waters. Have you any- 
 thing to say about that? 
 
 A. I think the complaint in the case of Powell was that he got 15s. a 
 week for auxiliary emplojaiient extending over the whole of the day, and 
 that practically he had no time for making anything else. His hours of 
 duty were as follows:^ — He makes a collection from 8.50 a.m. to 9.40 a.m., 
 a delivery from 12.45 p.m. to 2.45 p.m., and another delivery from 4 p.m. 
 till 6 p.m. He is thus on duty for a total of 4 hours 50 minutes per day. 
 
 The Cliairman : Still the duties are very much scattered over the day ; it 
 does not give him any length of time to work outside. 
 
 A. That is so ; but he has all the evening to himself, and if he pursues 
 the trade of a waiter, or anything of that sort, he would be able to accepi 
 employment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But your evidence iiractically confirms the evidence. 
 
 A. That is so. As regards Waters, it was stated that 9d. was given him 
 for taking a bye-bag from St. John's Wood to Kilburn between every de- 
 livery. The witness stated that the Hampstead. Kilburn, and St. John's 
 Divisions were so mixed up that it was practically impossible for each
 
 516 Jasper C, Badcock, London. 
 
 man in sorting always to know exactly where the respective divisions ended, 
 and so that there might not be any delav in the correspondence, the man 
 was paid 9d. per week for taking the bag Ijackwards and forwards tlie 
 whole week. Now, the facts of the case are that tlie conveyance of this 
 bye-bag to Kilburn forms part of tlie man's regular duties. He has to do 
 one duty from 6.40 to 7.40, for which he gets 3s. a week, and he has two 
 deliveries, for each of which he gets 6s. a week. He is occasionally em- 
 ployed to assist an overloaded postman, and that is Avhere, perhaps, the 9d. 
 per week comes in. His reguhir pay is 15s. per week. 
 
 The Chairman : Now, if a telegi'apli messenger is doing auxiliary duty as 
 postman, is he required to sign one of these forms? 
 
 A. No ; not if he is living at liome with his parents. 
 
 Q. The witness also referred to the duties at the Northern District 
 Office. Do you know anything of tliem? 
 
 A. The complaint there was, I think, that certain of the old auxiliaries 
 had to take up mid-day work after the revision, and a.s they had something 
 else to do, it broke into their time, and "these poor old auxiliaries " were told 
 that, except they took this duty, they must go. T.hey did go. Now, the 
 revision took place rather more than six years ago, and the leading feature 
 of it was the conversion of auxiliary into full-time established labour. A 
 number of the auxiliary letter-carriers were put on full time on the estiib- 
 lished class. The number of auxiliaries was reduced from 47 to 24, 23 
 Ixiing thus displaced, and of these 23, 17 were made established postmen, 
 2 were transferred to another district as auxiliaries, one declined nomination, 
 and 3 resigned, because they could do nothmg but evening duty. I expect 
 these three are the " poor old auxiliaries " : they were all of them imder 30 
 years of age. (Laughter.) 
 
 Q. You do not know how they were employed in the day-time, do you? 
 
 A. No ; I have no information before me as to that. 
 
 Q. Wilson gave us his own hours, and said they were fully 8 hours. 
 
 A. He acknowledged that the actual hours of working were not fully 8 
 hours, but said that the rest of the time was occupied in going to and fro. 
 Tlie full allowance woidd be 45 minutes for a morning collection, and 25 
 minutes for an afternoon collection. HLs total attendances work out, I 
 believe, at 7 liours and 35 minutes. It is hardly a full 8 hours, but still it 
 is only a little under. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is that allowing tlie man time for walking to and fro ? 
 
 A. Yes ; it allows time for him havuig to commence duty at a distant 
 point. 
 
 The Chau-man : Now Ave come to the complaint that special duties are 
 pressed upon the auxiliary men by the officer in charge, and that in conse- 
 quence of having to attend at the offices for special duties a man h".s to set 
 aside his private employment? 
 
 A. Yes ; and a specific case was given. It was the case of a man named 
 Alderman at Blackheath. The man was stated to be a waiter, and he had 
 an oj^portunity of a job, by which he could earn 7s. 6d., in the middle of the 
 day. Now, the rule is not to call upon auxiliary postmen to perform com- 
 pulsorily any duty but the duty which he engages to do day by day. It 
 i:5 stated that owing to the General Election an order was sent down to 
 Blackheath that no man — not merely the established men — ^bnt no man was 
 to be let off on that day. I have copies of the circulars which were issued 
 at that time, and I will read them. The first ran: — "It is of special impor- 
 tance that great care should be exercised in the disposal of election notices 
 and polling cards, so that no delay may occur in their delivery. The post- 
 men especially should be warned in the matter ; any delays that may be 
 caused through inattention or carelessness will be severely dealt with." 
 The other one read as follows : — " Be good enough to note that election 
 circulars should, as far as possible, be sent out with the regular deliveries. 
 Each postman should take out a fair proportion, and every effort must be 
 made to get the circulars and polling cards delivered as quickly as pos-
 
 The Auxiliaries and Full Duty. 517 
 
 sible. Large numbers of polling cards may shortly be posted, and it is 
 essential that proper and ample arrangement should be made for their de- 
 livery." Now, these are the only circulars that were issued to Black- 
 heath, so that there was no keeping the man on duty except for his 
 regular work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you mean that no order was given that no man should 
 be let oil' duty on that day? 
 
 A. No order was given to that effect. I have read the only orders we 
 had, and they simply emphasised the necessity for the proper delivery of 
 the election circulars. As regards Alderman, his regular duty is the morn- 
 ing delivery, a 5 o'clock collection, and a 6 o'clock collection. On the 13th 
 July he provided a substitute for his 5 o'clock collection, changing duties 
 with another postman who did the 9 o'clock collection. He paid another 
 man to do his 6 o'clock duty. I am assured that there was no difficulty 
 in deaUng with the election work at Blackheath, and I am also told that 
 j^lderman's services were neither asked for nor required in connection with 
 it. 
 
 Q. Is an auxiliary ever requested to do a duty against his will? 
 
 A. No ; except the duty he engages to do day by day. 
 
 Q. He does no extra duty ; he only does that which he has undertaken 
 to do? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then the whole of that case falls to the ground ? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : He explains that he was let off when he asked? 
 
 A. Yes ; but before tliat he made out that he was compulsorily kept in, 
 and that he had great difficulty in getting off. 
 
 Q. On examination, I think the witness felt that the case could not be 
 maintained? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : One point made l)y the witness was not that he was com- 
 pelled to stay on, but tliat the men generally found it a disadvantage if 
 they declined to do so, because afterwards it was remembered against them. 
 TJiat was what he suggested. 
 
 A. Yes ; but in this case the man was not requested to stop beyond his 
 regular duty. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : You have the same rule with regard to the intervals 
 Ijctween duties for auxiliaries as for established postmen, have you not? 
 
 A. No ; the rule is to allow a greater license to auxiliaries, for the 
 reason that they have other reasons to be employed outside, and it is 
 Decessury that they should do so. 
 
 Q. Does an auxiliary get anj^ allowance for boots? 
 
 A. No, sii\ As regards an auxiliary providing a substitute, there is a 
 guiding rule directing the overseers. It is necessary that auxiliaries shoiild 
 have occasional indulgence to a greater extent than established men, as it is 
 recognised that they are partly dependent on services other than post office 
 work. 
 
 Q. The witness suggested that the way to remedy matters was to inci-ease 
 the number of deliveries and collections at Hampstead, so as to be able 
 to employ more full-time men. Do you thiiik that would be possible? 
 
 A. I think that Hampstead is pretty well served now. There are seven 
 deliveries a day, and fourteen collections, one of them being a Parcel Post 
 one. 
 
 Q. The witness next came to the question of the remark of a medical 
 officer to an auxiliary as to the probationary period, and he quoted a con- 
 versation which he said he had had with the medical officer, in which the 
 question was put to him, "Are you on two years' probation?" His reply 
 to that was in the affirmative, and he says that the medical officer then 
 observed, " I never heard such an absurd thing in all my life !" Have you 
 incpiired into that?
 
 518 Jaspek C. Badcock, London. 
 
 A. Yes ; I tliought it was a strange tiling for a medical officer to say, so 
 I made ini-|uiry on that, and the medical officer's reply is that thfe state- 
 ment of Wilson is untrue. As it happened, it was liis partner who saw the 
 raan Wilson, and he savci he has no recollection of making any such remark 
 as is attributed to him. In fact, it was so milike any exjuession he ever 
 used that he could not understand how Wilson came to suggest that he 
 had used it. 
 
 8ir F. Mowatt : In fact, he never heard such an absurd thing in all his 
 life. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Chairman: Now we come to the cases of two men — ^Akerman and 
 Kunt — who got into tlie army after being refused by the Departmental 
 Medical Officer? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is stated that they were refused by the medical officer at 
 tlie end of two years' proliation. That is not the case ; they were both 
 refused by the medical officer on nomination for appointments as established 
 po.stmen ; they did not serve as established postmen at all. The medical 
 oliicer in this case is a retired army surgeon-major. He was not satisfied 
 that one of them had not a lung defect, and he found that the otlier had 
 varicose veins. They were neither of them rejected ; the medical officer 
 simply postponed givuig a definite opinion for six months. One man re- 
 signed voluntarily one month afterwards, and the other about four months 
 later. 
 
 Q. They did go into the army afterwards? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But they had not been rejected by the Post Office medical 
 man ? 
 
 A. Not actually rejected. I may mention that this medical officer, an 
 old army man, expresses the opinion that in view of the pension, etc., 
 granted to postmen, the examination should be more strict for the Post 
 Office Service than for tlie army. All that he has to certify for in regard 
 to an army man is that he is a man likely to last the time for which he has 
 enlisted, })ut in the case of the Civil Service he has to bear in mind the 
 fact that the man may have to come on the ]>ension list. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : When men are rejected by tlie medical officer, is the 
 reason for the rejection given them, or are they merely told they are imfit? 
 
 A. The reason is not given to the men themselves. 
 
 The Chairman : I now come to the case of Greorge William Emeny. 
 
 A. Yes ; that also was a rejection on nomination, and not at the end 
 of probation. The Departmental Medical Officer at Walthamstow reported 
 that on examination he found considerable dullness at the apex of the right 
 lung, and indication of old mischief. The man was examined later on by 
 another medical man, who reported that there were no signs of active 
 disease, and that the lung condition had not extended. Then the man was 
 examined by the Chief Medical Officer, who reported that Emeny was not 
 fit to be an established postman. The man appealed, and forwarded 
 the two certificates which were put in by the witness Wilson. The Chief 
 Medical Officer again examined the man, and reported that he was unable 
 to alter the opinion he arrived at on the previous occasion. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In a case of that kind, the candidate would have a further 
 appeal now, would he not? 
 
 A. Yes ; if he chooses to exercise it. 
 
 Q. And he would be able to appeal to an independent medical man, not 
 one of our own officers? 
 
 A. He may appeal to a man outside the Department, and I think for 
 that purpose certain medical men are appointed by the Civil Service Com- 
 missioners. 
 
 Q. They are recommended by the College of Physicians, are they not? 
 
 A. Well, at any rate, they are not recommended by the Post Office.
 
 Medical Evidence, 519 
 
 The Chairman : The next point raised was a suggestion that the medical 
 officers of the Post Office were lia.ble to be influenced by special orders 
 giv^n to them, to deal in a particular way with certain cases? 
 
 A. I made inquiry upon that point while" the evidence was being given, 
 and I have here the observations from .the medical officer in question. It 
 appears that the practice is one in vogue at the S.W. District Office, and 
 the names of four men were mentioned in connection with it. They were 
 Harper, Mendall, Bowles, and Barnes. I first asked the medical officer 
 what he understood by this endorsement on the order to see him, and he 
 says in reply. " The rule of endorsing the orders to see the medical officer 
 was instituted about eight or nine years ago by Mr. Angell (the then Post- 
 master), and it was specially made owing to the conduct of the postman 
 Mendall and a small number of men who, with him, were suspected of 
 systematic malingering. Mendall, more especially, was constantly absenting 
 himself from early morning duty, and attending here afterwards with trivial 
 complaints of having been ill in the night, and as he enjoyed remarkably 
 good health, he was frequently refused sick certificates to cover his ab- 
 .sences. The result in his case was mai'ked, for, as far as I know, he is 
 now an exemplary officer, and certainly never troubles me unless really ill. 
 Most of the other suspected ^^'^^ have left the Service, but the rule has 
 always remained, though now very rarely enforced (I believe two or three times 
 in 1895 amongst a staff of over 1,000). The instructions I received from 
 the Postmaster were : — ' That wlien an order was endorsed by the in- 
 spector on duty, to withhold sick leave in cases where I could satisfy 
 myself that there was nothing in the state of the applicant's health to 
 justify his absence from duty.' My discretions would, therefore, be fettered 
 only in so far that I should feel it my duty to withhold a sick certificate 
 when I was perfectly satisfied that the officer had absented himself without 
 sufficient cause of illness, and if I thought there was any doubt in the 
 case, I should give the patient the benefit of it. I am bound to say that 
 officers have from the first very much resented the rule, as they generally 
 consider that it throws some doubt on the genuineness of their complaints. — 
 T. H. Brabant, Medical Officer, S.W. District." Harper's case was a 
 simple one : he had a tooth extracted on Saturday evening, and therefore 
 absented himself from duty on tlie following Monday morning. I failed 
 to discover any sufficient reason for his absence, so he was not given a sick 
 certificate. The following day he complained of some pain in the jaw 
 due to the extraction, and as it seemed somewhat swollen I advised fomen- 
 tations, and then put him off duty, to enable him to carry out the sugges- 
 tion." I have here the details of the other cases. I do not know whether 
 you will wish me to go into them. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : I do not think you need go into all the details ; all we 
 want is the general conclusion. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : As I understand it, the endorsement was to the effect 
 that the m,an was absent from early morning duty, and it would show 
 that the certificate was required to cover an absence which had already 
 occurred ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Now we come to the case of Duncan. 
 
 A. Yes ; that is another case in which it is suggested that the man was 
 put upon a two years' probation, and then rejected. The facb is, he was 
 rejected on nomination for appointment. He was examined by the District 
 Medical Officer in February, 1893, and it was reported that he had flat 
 feet. Still he was appointed as an auxiliary postman. In June, 1893, ho 
 enlisted, and his friends bought him out, and an appeal was again made 
 tfl the Post Office for a re-consideration of his case. He was examined by 
 the Medical Officer-in-Chief in July, 1893, who reported that although his 
 
 ["The above statement re my absence from duty through illuesi?, as supplied by the Medical 
 Officer (I presume), is absolutely inaccurate from beginning to end."— G. H. HARpirK, S. W.D.O. 
 -June 8th, 189G.]
 
 520 Jasper C. Badcock, London. 
 
 trouble was only slight at present, still the nature of a postman's duty would 
 no doubt increase it, in consequence of the walks he would have to do, 
 and tliat it would probibly involve liis retirement from the Service at an 
 early age on a medical certificate. On that he was rejected. 
 
 Q. It seems that the Post Office Medical Officer is more strict than an 
 army medical officer? 
 
 A. Yes ; as I said before, an army doctor has only to certify as to a 
 man's probable health during the few j-ears for which he has enlisted, while 
 the Post Office Medical Officer has to look to a life-long service. 
 
 Q. Tlien we come to the complaint that postmen are hampered by having 
 to carry parcels? 
 
 A. I think we already dealt with that in the early part of the day. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I should like to ask you a question on tbat. I meant 
 to have done so at the time. You stated the number of parcels that a post- 
 man has to deal with at any one time is limited to five, and the witness 
 complained that that would often add 10 or 15 ll)s. to the weight the letter- 
 carrier has to deliver? 
 
 A. The limit of weight is 11 lbs. 
 
 Q. But the man said that five parcels would often add 10 or 15 lbs. to 
 an already heavy delivery of letters. Do you say it is fair representation 
 that parcels would weigh on the average 2 lbs. ? 
 
 A. No ; certainly not. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There is a limit of 11 lbs. for the total weight of parcels a 
 man may have to take? 
 
 A. Yes ; the five parcels must not exceed 11 lbs. in weight. 
 
 The Chairman : You do give assistance by way of hand-carts for the 
 delivery of parcels, do you not? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Is there any rule as to when a hand-cart may be given? 
 
 A. Hardlj' a rule ; the delivery is systematically made by hand-cart, as 
 parcels do not vary much either in bulk or number. 
 
 Q. Do you sometimes have to send out a hand-cart on a delivery where 
 ordinarily a postman carries them? 
 
 A. A parcels delivery covers the whole of the area always. A parcels 
 delivery is made for the heavy parcels, besides a delivery by the letter 
 postman with his letters. It is only a question of keeping back the larger 
 parcels for the parcel delivery, and of sending out with the letter delivery 
 the smaller parcels. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Is wheel delivery imiversal? Is there a heavy parcel 
 delivery all over England? 
 
 A. I am speaking of London ; there is always a hand-cart in reserve for 
 parcels' delivery in suburban districts. A man may, if he ILkes, take the 
 parcels out in his bag over his shoulder, or he may use a hand-cart. In 
 some districts the hand-cart is always used. 
 
 The Chairman : Now we come to the case of the Wallington and Carshal- 
 ton coach? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is the case in which the man, according to the witness, 
 had to wait at Oarshalton 4 hours. It is a case of a split duty, and it 
 does not seem to be much worse than the case of postmen. 
 
 Q. Do you mean the case of rural postmen who take out a morning deli- 
 very, and wait at the end of the walk until it is tlie time of the evening 
 collection? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I may also add that it is not very different from the case 
 of the London postman who has daily two intervals of two hours each. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: But he might go home? 
 
 A. Hardly within two hours, unless he lives very close. I do not think 
 there is any ground for special comj^laint in this matter. 
 
 The Cliairman : Do town postmen in many cases have to stay out in the 
 post offices, or in the neighbourhood during the day?
 
 The Cases of Chapman and Howe. 521 
 
 A. Undoubtedly ; men with three attendances do, as very often there is 
 not sufficient time for them to get home in the intervals. 
 
 Q. And in such cases do you provide them with any place to go to at 
 the head office? 
 
 A. Yes ; thei'e is always a postman's kitchen, as we call it — a postman's 
 retiring-room. In some offices it is better than in others, but we give the 
 best accommodation we can. During the summer, in fine weather, the 
 gardens at St. Paul's Cathedral are very much used by City postmen. 
 
 The Chairman : They would not go there on a wet day? 
 
 Mr. Smith : They might go inside. 
 
 Witness : They "could not smoke there. (Laughter.) I may mention in 
 regard to the Wallington case, we tried to get accommodation for that 
 man, but could not succeed in doing so; we could get nothing nearer than 
 at Carshalton. 
 
 Q. And is the man allowed to go back there in the coach? 
 
 A. The coach goes back, and he arrives in it. 
 
 Mr. Waljjole : He suggested that it was rather against the rule of the 
 Department to do so? 
 
 The Chairman : Well, he said it was by favour of the driver he did it. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is there any objection to doing so? 
 
 A. Not at all ; the coach is empty. 
 
 The Chairman : Now we come to the case of Chapman and Howe. 
 
 A. Yes. These men were passed over for promotion from the then 
 second to the then first-class for generally imsatisfactory conduct, and the 
 contention seems to be that the pimishment that they so sustamed should 
 not be a permanent one. But it is the case throughout the Service, that 
 when a man does not get promotion in his ordinary course through mis- 
 conduct of his own, he loses his turn, and has to suffer for it through his 
 career. Now, there is nothing exceptional m their cases. 
 
 Q. It is on general grounds that they were passed over? 
 
 A. Yes. It is alleged that it was owing to their connection with the so- 
 called Postmen's Union ; but according to the papers sent to me, no mention 
 Avas made at the time of that agitation. Their conduct was described as 
 " generally unsatisfactory." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : At any rate, the reason given by the Postmaster to the 
 members of the local branch is not the reason given officially? 
 
 A. Stated to have been given? The man who was Postmaster at the 
 time is dead, and consequently there is no means of correcting the state- 
 ment, but the man who was chief clerk at the time says that no such 
 reason was ever given. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me what are the existing rules with regard to the atten- 
 dance at meetings? 
 
 A. There are no restrictions at all now. Originally the rule was that 
 men were forbidden to attend public meetings held outside the Post Office 
 building on subjects connected with their duty or pay.. That was modified 
 in April, 1890, and a notice was issued to the effect that Post Office ser- 
 vants might hold meetings outside the Post Office buildings for the discus- 
 sion of official questions, provided that ample notice was given to the 
 Department, the meetings to be confined to Post Office t^ervants interested, 
 and an official shorthand writer to be present if required by the authorities. 
 In September, 1893, the whole of these restrictions were removed. 
 
 Q. And now they are free to meet as they like? 
 
 A. Yes ; as they like and with whom they like. 
 
 Q. And where they like? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Then Mr. Boaler says he was pmiished two years in 
 succession for late attendances. I asked him how many late attendances, 
 and he said there were 18 the first year. He also stated that he was late 
 on an average 20 minutes each time. Can you tell me how far that was 
 correct ?
 
 522 Jasper C. Bai>cock, Loudon. 
 
 A. Yes ; I have a history of the case here. The mcremenfc which was 
 arrested was the final increment from 33s. to 34s., and we are more par- 
 ticular with a man's last increment, bscause if he gets over that, there is no 
 means of punishing him in the same Avay for future offences. He must 
 either not be punished at all, or the punishment must be verj^ much greater. 
 In January, 1889, Eoaler had been 18 times late durir.g the preceding year, 
 and his increment was deferred for tliree months. In April, when it came 
 up for consideration again, and it was foimd that in tlie interval he had been 
 late twice only, tiie increment was allowed. Then he wont on all right 
 till June, 1893, when the question of his final increment was con- 
 sidered, and as it was found that he had been 23 times late in twelve 
 months, it "was deferred for six months. During that deferred period he 
 was reported for loitering and drinking in a public-house while on duty. 
 At the end of the six months it was found tluit he had been 14 times late, 
 and the final increment was then arrested. The matter came up for con- 
 sideration again in the following June, and it was then found that he liad 
 been 18 times late, but as that Avas only 4 times within the second period of 
 six months, the increment was not arrested on tliat occasion, but it was 
 deferred for six months. During that six months he was six times late, 
 and as thus he Avas going back, liis increment was again arrested. In 
 June, 1895, he was again reported for being 10 times late during the pre- 
 ceding year, and as the attendance was not considered quite satisfactory, 
 the increment was deferred for six months, while during the. probationary 
 period of six months he was only four times late, and at last the final 
 increment was allowed. 
 
 Q. CJan you tell us what was the amount of the lateness of his atten- 
 dances ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I will take the case of the finpJ increment. The year in which 
 he was 23 times late gave a toal loss of time of 12 hours and 16 minutes ; 
 14 times late, 4 hours 30 minutes ; 18 times late, 6 hours 30 minutes ; 6 
 times late, 2 hours 40 minutes ; 10 times late, 3 hours 63 minutes ; 4 
 times late, 2 hours 3 minutes. 
 
 Q. Roughly speaking, that is half-an-hour for each late attendance? 
 
 A. Y^. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Is not that rather an unusual sort of lateness? "We have 
 had cases before us of men being two or three minutes late, owing to a 
 journey being too long, or the weight to carry too heavy. Half-an-hour 
 Vte seems rather a substantial amount. 
 
 A. Well, if a man oversleeps himself at 5 o'clock in the morning it is not 
 d, question of two or three minutes. I think the shorfr late attendances are 
 usually those made on collections during an ordinary duty. 
 
 The Chairman : The next case is somewhat similar. It is that of a man 
 named Cox, and it is complicated by the fact that he had a sick wife. 
 
 A. Yes. It was said that the original bad attendance was due to the fact 
 that he was unable to afford a nurse for his wife, and that since she had 
 (Red he had been able to make better attendances. Now, this man was 19 
 times late m 1889, 19 times in 1890, 21 in 1891, and 27 in the period ending 
 August, 1891, when the increment was stopped. His late attendances sjDread 
 over the whole year, but his wife's illness did not extend over the 
 whole year. The witness alleges that after the wife's death the 
 man's attendances were verv much improved. Now, he was 6 times late 
 in 1892, 7 in 1893, 4 in 1894, and 3 in 1895, so that the attendances did 
 not very much improve, for his wife did not die till 1895, and it was 1891 
 when the increment was arrested. 
 
 Q. Was it m 1891 she was ill? 
 
 A. In 1891 illness was alleged as an excuse for the late attendances, but 
 at the same time it was admitted that they were spread over the whole 
 year, whereas the wife's illness was not.
 
 The Rule regarding the Disti-ibution of " Three Stripe?." 523 
 
 Mr. Walpole: And his wife lived four years after the increment had 
 been arrested? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And has the attendance improved practically during the four years? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : What have you to say about Buchanan's case ? 
 
 A. I must admit in that case that there had been a misunderstanding 
 owing to an error in the records, and I think that misunderstanding was 
 not sufficiently remedied, and that the man's stripes ought to date back to 
 the original date. I will have that seen to. Ihe mistake arose througli 
 there being two Buchanans in the oiEce, and a gertain irregularity was 
 credited to the wrong man. 
 
 At this stage the Committee adjourned until Monday. 
 
 The Committee met again on Monday, March 23rd, when there were 
 present : The Right, Hon. Lord Tweedmouth (Chairman), Sir Francis 
 Mowatt, K.C.B., Spencer Walpole, Esq., H. Llewellyn Smith, Esq., and 
 Robert Bruce, Esq., Secretary. 
 
 Mr. J. C. Badcock was re-called, and further examined, as follows: — 
 
 The Chairman : I think the last case you dealt with was that of Robert 
 Charters. The next batch of cases has reference, I think, to a number of 
 men who complained of delay with regard to stripes ? 
 
 A. Similar comj^laints were made in various parts of the evidence. It 
 was a question whether service as assistant-letter-carrier should count for 
 stripe allowances. Mr. Churchfield has given me the names since his evi- 
 dence, and the men have now received their third stripe, as it has been 
 decided by the Secretary that their time as assistant-letter-carriers sliould 
 count. It dates from tlie completion of their fifteen years' service, includ- 
 ing their service as assistant-postmen. 
 
 Q. Is there any case now in London where a man is waiting for a stripe 
 because there is no vacancy? 
 
 A. No. The first and second strijje classes are unlimited. It is only in 
 the third stripe class where the number is limited, and there is no place 
 in London where the men are now waiting for it. 
 
 Q. What is the limit for the third stripe in London? 
 
 A. There are 30 badges for every 100 men. In each 100 there are not 
 to be more than 30 three stripes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is the rule all over the country, is it not ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : And as a matter of fact, that limit is not reached in 
 London at the present moment. 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Has it ever been reached in London ? Or are present cir- 
 cumstances exceptional ? 
 
 A. So far as I know, it has never been reached in London, speaking from 
 my own memory. Reference is made to some men at Hampstead who have 
 had 15 years' service, and who have not yet received their stripe ; the fact 
 is that the case of these men was reported with the cases of one or two 
 doubtful men, and it is the inquiry into the case of the doubtful men 
 which has led to the stripe for the otJhers being deloyed, but, when granted, 
 it will be granted as dating from the commencement of their service. 
 
 The Chairman : I think we have already dealt with questions of pro- 
 motion, but have you anything more to add under that head? 
 
 A. It was stated that there was a regulation laid down in the London 
 district that the appointment to overseerships should be in the proportion 
 of two to sorters and one to postmen. I have had very full inquiry made, 
 and I can find no trace of any such regulation or understanding.
 
 524 Jasper C. Badcock, London. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be desirable to increase the difficulty of ex- 
 aminations for the postman's class on entry? 
 
 A. I see no reason for doing so. 
 
 Q. It was suggested by some of the men themselves in evidence as if 
 they would rather like it. 
 
 A. Ah, but tliese men are already in the Service. (Laughter.) It is a 
 very old argument for men in the Service to a'lvocfite the increase of diffi- 
 culty in examination, and then to make that increased difficulty in examina- 
 tion the basis of claims for more pay. 
 
 Q. Tlicn we come to the riuestiou of the Parcel Post. The men who 
 assisted in starting the Parcel Post, or some of them, seem to think that 
 they had promises held out to them which were not fulfilled. 
 
 A. Their evidence is that Mr. Blake informed them that in return for 
 their attendance they should be the first to receive appointments in the 
 established sorting class. This promise is not admitted by Mr. Blake or 
 by Mr. Hunter, the Chief Sui)erintendent referred to. And, as a matter 
 of fact, when a class of sorters for the Parcel Post was established, they 
 were third-class sorters, on the .scale of 18s. by Is. to 20s., and it would 
 not have been worth the while of postmen already in the Service to be 
 transferred to that scale. 
 
 Q. The claim seems to liave been that those men who were transferred 
 to the Parcel Post should be made sorters. • 
 
 A. They expected to be made sortei's. 
 
 Q. Yes, and now, as a matter of fact, postmen of a certain number of 
 years' service would have been losers, as I understand, by becoming sorters 
 in the Parcel Post Branch. 
 
 A. Not at present, but they would have lost at the time, as the class of 
 sorters first established for the Parcel Post were only third-class sorters. 
 A transfer from the position of postmen to a second-class sortership now 
 gives a higher increment and a higher maximum. 
 
 Q. Would he not even then have been suffering a loss? 
 
 A. No. The postman would have carried his wages with him. In the 
 case of any transfer made for the benefit of the Service, the existing wages 
 are carried. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I should like on that point to ask you a question illus- 
 trating a difficulty which I felt in understanding some of the evidence at 
 the moment it was given. The alleged promise was that these men should 
 be promoted eventually to be sorters, but there were at that time no sorters 
 at all in the Parcel Post branch. 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Therefore I could not understand, and the witness did not succeed in 
 clearly explaining to me how it was that they expected to be made sorters 
 in a branch of the Service in which there were no sorters. 
 
 A. When the Parcel Post was established, it was unknown what it 
 might develop into, and, as Mr. Walpole piit it, a "scratch crew" was 
 engaged in the tirst instance, and I think what may have led to some of 
 their expectations may have been that one of the overseers may have said, 
 " Now, men, put your back into it, and very likely something will come 
 out of this, and you may stand a good chance of getting something by-and- 
 
 by." 
 
 Q. There seems to have been no definite place of promotion promised? 
 
 A. No, there was not. There were no places to promise at the time. 
 
 The Cliairman : Is there any rule that no postman is allowed to com- 
 pete for a clerkship? 
 
 A. No ; certainly not. When I am asked to nominate candidates for com- 
 petition for clerkships, I send to each London District Postmaster or Super- 
 intendent in charge of a division, asking him to recommend the men under
 
 Vacant Clerkships — Reasons for Postmen not being Nominated. 525 
 
 his charge whom he considers best qualified for the position, and I don't 
 care whether the man so recommended is a porter, messenger, sorter, or 
 what he may be. 
 
 Q. Have there been postmen appointed to clerkships? 
 A. No, not direct. There was one man who entered as a postman and 
 became a sorter, and was afterwards nominated for a clerkship. 
 
 Sir F. .Mowatt: You say that although the offer is open to all upon 
 recommendation, yet in practice, it is generally not the postmen who are 
 recommended ? 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Q. Could you explain why that is so? 
 
 A. The sorters jmss a higher examination at entering, and therefore, 
 presumably, the postman is less intellectually fitted for a clerkship, and 
 in these cases it is making a selection of one man from a force of 300 
 or 400 under the maximum rate. 
 
 Q. So we may assume the explanation to be that there are generally 
 better educated men to be found among the sorters? 
 A. Yes ; among the sorters and counter-men and telegraphists. 
 Q. Than among the postmen ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. That Ls your explanation? 
 A. Yes ; it is the probable explanation. 
 
 The Chairman : I understand a man does not become a clerk right off, 
 and that the nomination only gives him the right of competing for a 
 clerkship ? 
 
 A. Yes ; but it is a limited competition, about three men being nomi- 
 nated for eacli vacancy. 
 
 Q. They compete between one another? 
 A. Yes, before the Civil Service Conmiissioners. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Might you not go one better? Is it not the case that the 
 more intelligent postmen presumably compete in the beginning of their 
 career for the sorters' places, and so reduce the proportion of remaining 
 postmen best qualified for clerkships? 
 A. Yes ; that is so. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you anything to say about the answer to the ques- 
 tion, where a man said he had been ajipointed as head postman, and had 
 been turned off? 
 
 A. He was not appointed as head postman ; he was tried on head post- 
 man's duties, but the trial showed that he was not equal to them, and, in 
 fact, although I hardly like to mention it, he was deprived of one of his 
 good conduct stripes. 
 
 Q. Wliile he was being tried as a head postman? 
 
 A. No, two years afterwards ; in fact, last December, for misconduct. 
 !Mr. Walpole : But it was before the evidence was given here ? 
 A. Yes, it was in December last. 
 
 Q. Then there is Worth's case. It is stated that he had been worldng 
 head postman's duties on and off for the last nine years? 
 
 A. He has done head postman's work for some years, durmg the annual 
 and sick leaves of the regular men, but the Postmaster states that he 
 cannot be recommended for promotion, as he is shifty, unreliable, and 
 careless. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is that not a reason for not employing him to act as head 
 postman? 
 
 A. It was thought better to give him a chance, instead of letting him have 
 the grievance of complaining that he had not had an opportunity of showing 
 whether he was qualified. 
 
 Q. But if he showed himself shifty, unreliable, and careless for several 
 years, ought not his trial as a head postman to cease? 
 A. I must confess that I think so.
 
 526 Jaspkr C. Badcock, London. 
 
 Q. It is also stated in the evidence that «ach vacancy at New Cross has 
 been filled up by men from the Head District Office? 
 
 A. There have been three vacancies for he;id postmen there in the last 
 nine years, and only one was filled up from the Head OfBce. 
 
 Q. Then there was a complaint with regard to the case of a man named 
 Coslett. of his application for a lobby officership having been passed over. 
 
 A. He was passed over because of his quarrelsome disposition. The 
 lobby officer has to exercise control over the men bringing in the bags from 
 the sorting office, and over the mail-cart and van drivers. And it wants 
 a man of very peaceable disposition to control those two different elements. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There was no favouritism in the matter? 
 
 A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. Unfortunately, he had not a good enough temper for the place? 
 
 A. That is so, and every man above the one who was promoted was duly 
 report«{I on and reasons given. 
 
 The Chairman : Some points were raised by Mr. Symes, arising out of the 
 abolition of classification. Do you want upon that point to supplement 
 at all what you have already told us? 
 
 A. The great grievance was that the system of classification was abolished 
 without any alteration being made in the amount of increment. I do not 
 know whether I am disclosing official .secrets, but I believe tliat the Post- 
 men's Committee in their report, when they recommended the abolition of 
 classification, contemplated an increase in tlie increment. The Postmaster- 
 General in his wisdom, however, adopted the abolition of classific;ition. but 
 did not adopt the increase of increment. If the recommendation of the 
 Committee had been adopted in its entirety, I think there would have been 
 little cause for grievance. 
 
 Sir F. Mow.att : The form in which the grievance came before us was 
 this : I think that the men near the top of the line dividing the first and 
 second-class would have passed over that line more quickly if classification 
 had not been abolished. 
 
 A. By the abolition of classification the jump which they formerly ob- 
 tained was abolished, but that would have been made up to them in great 
 measure if the increase of increment had been granted. But. of course, 
 it would not have got rid of this grievance that these men just before the 
 abolition got the jump, whilst the m.en just after did not get it. 
 
 Mr. Smith: It was the men near their maximum who felt the grievance? 
 
 A. Tlie case showed the advantage the men enjoyed before the abolition 
 of classification in obtaining this jump. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The existence of classification gave them a distinct leap 
 in a certain portion of their career? 
 
 A. Yes ; as a rule. 
 
 Q. And this abolition did away with that? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Assuming that we decided to recommend that classification be abol- 
 ished, that would abolish the jump equally in other branches of the Service, 
 would it not? 
 
 A. Certainly, but that must depend on the Committee. 
 
 Q. Do you think that would constitute a grievance? 
 
 A. I don't know ; that would depend entirely on the state of the lower 
 class. 
 
 Q. Which, would vary in different classes and the different offices? 
 
 A. Yes. I should mention that in order to remedy grievance as far as 
 possible, we got authority to fill up every vacancy which existed on the 
 first-class, and there were many at the time of the abolition of classifi- 
 cation. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: 1?ut if the promotion was not very quick, the effect of 
 doing away with the jump would be merely this : that on the take-off 
 side the men would proceed by increment until they had bridged the line. 
 
 A. That is so ; but it was not the case with the postmen in practice.
 
 The E.G. Memorial. 527 
 
 Q. As regards the future, the jump would disappear by the men crossing 
 the line by means of increment? 
 
 A. Certainly ; it would do away with the grievance about which we heard 
 in evidence of so many men standing at the maximum of the second class. 
 
 Q. On the take-oii side, as it were? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chaii-man : Mr. Symes made a strong charge to the effect that it 
 seemed to be the rule of tlie superiors in the Department never to give a 
 moment's careful consideration to the complaints and representations of their 
 subordinates. 
 
 A. I think that was the case in which we were said to have given the 
 answer four days before the memorial was received. (Laughter.) I have 
 gone into that case very cai-efully, and got the particulars. The allegation 
 was that on April 4th, 1892, a meeting of postmen was held in the Eastern 
 District, and three delegates were elected to lay their case before the Con- 
 troller. Tliere is no trace, either in my own office or in the office of the 
 Sub-Controller of tlie Circulation Department, to which, these men belong, 
 of any application made by the men in tlie E.C. Disti'ict previous to tlie 
 19th September, 1892. Applications were received from men similarly 
 situated in the Western, W.C, South-Western, North-Western, Paddington, 
 and Soutl I -Eastern Districts at various times between September, 1891. and 
 July, 1892. These applications were placed together before the Post- 
 ihaster-General on the 2nd September, 1892, and a decision was given by 
 him on tlie 6th of Septeml>er, which was promulgated on the 15th. of 
 September to the district from which the application had been received. 
 The tirst application from the E.C. District was dated the 19tli September, 
 and was sent to me on the 20th. It was reported by me by the Secretary 
 on the 21st, and by him placed before the Postmaster-General on the 26th. 
 The Postmaster-General decided on the 6th January that the decision given 
 in the other districts applied er|ually to them, and this was communicated 
 to them in tlie E.C. District on the lOth of January. A copy of the memor- 
 andum of 15th September was enclosed, and no doubt this is what is re- 
 ferred to as the answer given liefore the memorial M^as sent in. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : It was an enclosure in an answer dated the 10th of 
 Januarv the following year? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Tlie answer the Postmaster-General had given to the 
 previous memorial was deemed to be a good answer to the subsequent 
 memorial from the E.C. District. 
 
 A. That is so. The answer given by the Postmaster-General on the 9th 
 January, 1893, was as follows : — 
 
 " The Postmaster-General has had liefore .him the accompanying memorial 
 from certain postmen in the Eastern Central District, representing that they 
 have suffered by the formation of postmen into one class, instead of there 
 being two classes as formerly, and asking that the present arrangements 
 may be relaxed in their favour. Similar applications have already been 
 made by postmen in other districts, and after due consideration of the cir- 
 cumstances, Mr. Morley had given his decision ; a copy of that decision is 
 herewith. Having reviewed the matter on the appeal from the E.C. men, 
 the Postmaster-General is of opinion that the decision already given must be 
 adhered to, and he directs that the memorial is to be answered accordingly." 
 
 The Chairman : I think your account is quite borne out by the evidence 
 that was given. 
 
 A. But it was conveyed by the evidence that I had had application from 
 the E.C. District in 1892. and had taken no notice of it. 
 
 The Chairman : But when you were dealing with the memorial it prac- 
 tically came out as you have stated? 
 
 A. Yes.
 
 528 Jasper C. Badcock, London. 
 
 Q. An assertion was made by one of the witnesses that the stripe or in- 
 crement had been stopped because a man had bsen 8 times late in one year? 
 
 A. Yes, that was two years ago ; it seems to be rather ancient liistory. 
 No particulars are given, and it is rather diHicult to meet a charge of 
 that kind in coiiserpience. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But is it a fact that a strii>e was ever stopped because a 
 man was 8 times late? 
 
 A. I thmk it may have been in the past, when the stripe regulations were 
 interpreted more strictly tJian they are now. 
 
 Mr. Smith : In this case it was pointed out that the stripe was stopped 
 for a man being; 8 times late, althougli his annual attendances were over i)OU 
 
 A. I do not believe any man's increment wa^ stopped for merely being 8 
 times late in one year. I expect there must be greater irregularities in 
 previous years. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You are speaking of the increment as distinct from 
 the stripe? 
 
 A. Yes^ 
 
 The Chairman : It was further stated that increased difficulties are found 
 in the way of getting sick leave? 
 
 A. That is a matter for the medical officer. 
 
 Q. Is it not brought mider your supervision? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you believe there is any truth in it? 
 
 A. Not the slightest. 
 
 Q. Not the slightest? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Sir F. INIowa'tt : A statement was made that the men preferred going 
 about suffering because they knew that the medical officer would only give 
 them leave in cases where they were suffering from infectious disease or a 
 very serious illness. Do you think that is an accurate statement? 
 
 A. My own impression is that it is not. I believe that if a man is 
 genuinely ill the doctor gives him every consideration. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, the average sick leave of the staff 
 is 7 or 8 days a year, is it not? 
 
 A. Yes. I take it that if the medical officer is anxious to keep down the 
 sick leave, it would not be to his interest to keep a man on duty when he 
 was becoming ill, as that might lead to a long illness, whereas a short 
 period of absence given at once might set him up. 
 
 The Chairman : Then reference is made to a memorial from some of the 
 E.G. i3ostmen, in which they suggest that they have suffered in consequence 
 of the abolition of classification, and by not being allowed to choose their 
 duties by seniority? 
 
 A. Not being allowed to choose according to seniority? 
 
 Q. Yes. You will see that they complain that they are not allowed to 
 choose their duties according to seniority, and that, in some cases, they are 
 thus deprived of then- share of the Christmas boxes. 
 
 A. I think that that memorial had to do in great measure with the ques- 
 tion of Christmas boxes. It was from the junior men in the Central Office, 
 and asked that they might be allowed to choose their duties. I looked the 
 matter up on receiving it, and referred it to the Sub-Controller, who is the 
 arbiter in such cases, and he made an arrangement which had my approval, 
 and which resulted in juniors getting a somewhat larger sJiare oi Christmas 
 boxes than they had had in the past. I have heard no more of it, and I 
 thought it was all settled imtil this evidence was given. 
 
 Q. In March last a further memorial was presented, and apparently that 
 was on the subject of the abolition of classification and the loss of the 
 jump wages on promotion from the second to the first class. 
 
 A. I do not think it followed on the first memorial ; I think it was merely 
 a shot at the Controller on the ground that he had not given the men a fair 
 hearing.
 
 Another E.G. Memorial. 529 
 
 The Chairman : I thought it was a double-barrelled shot ? 
 
 A. No ; I think it was aimed mainly at the loss sustained by the abolition 
 of classification. On the 21st March they sent in a further memorial to the 
 Postmaster-General asking for 4.s. a week addition to their wages to com- 
 pensate them for the loss tliey considered tliey had sustained by the aboli- 
 tion of classification, and the Sub -Controller, in sending that memorial to 
 me, enclosed a tabulated statement showing that the abolition of classifica- 
 tion had not been so prejudicial to them as they suggested. On receiving 
 this memorial I pointed out to the men through the Superintendent how 
 the matter really stood, and said that I saw no hope of this memorial 
 being acceded to, but still, if they wished it, I would send it on to the 
 Postmaster-General. The men replied on the 22nd, tendering me their 
 heitrty thanks for my kindly consideration, and stating the reasons why 
 they still wished the memorial to be sent on. I sent it on. and it was 
 decided on by Mr. Morley on the 23rd. I think that after tendering me 
 their hearty thanks for my consideration, it was hardly fair to charge me 
 with having no symjiathy with them. 
 
 Q. What was Mr. Morley's decision? 
 
 A. He maintained the old decision. He pointed out that the change 
 which had been effected had undoubtedly been advant;igeous to the post- 
 men as a whole, and even in their own case, they had a higher maxinmm 
 salary than they would otherwise have been able to attain. 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that the men are punished for not knowing about removals 
 on the walks on which they hare just been put? 
 
 A. No ; imless it is by some extreme inadvertence. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of the alleged case given us of such a punish- 
 ment being inflicted? I think the man's name was Wolverton? ' 
 
 A. Yes. In that case there was a dispute about a delivery for a Mr. 
 Child, who had, I think, left his office and gone to another place, or had 
 started business on his own account in the same building. Special instruc- 
 tions were given as to how his letters were to be dealt with, and these instruc- 
 tions were signed by all the postmen on the walk. Wolverton, the postman 
 who complains that he was punished, himself signed the instruction, and he 
 has acknowledged that he read it, and afterwards delivered the letter con- 
 trary to the instruction. 
 
 The Chairman : His statement was that he had been off the walk for a 
 week or a month before he made the mistake? 
 
 A. I think he had been continuously on it for a month. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He no doubt worked on it, and signed the instructions. 
 
 The Chairman : The next case is a somewhat shiiilar one. A man named 
 Farrant complains of having been punished for not knowing the way in 
 which a walk had to be worked? 
 
 A. In that case I a.m assured that the letters were properly arranged for 
 delivery by a man who knew the walk, and that this postman had nothing 
 to do but to take the letters out in the order in which they were given to 
 him. 
 
 Q. And he preferred to do it in his own way instead? 
 
 A. Yes ; he preferred to do it in his own way. 
 
 Q. And was it for this his stripe was arrested? 
 
 A. No ; the stripe was arrested for general want of care in the perfor- 
 mance of his duties. In the year 1895 there were 8 irregularities recorded 
 against him. He was cautioned, then reprimanded, then warned, again 
 cautioned, again cautioned, then he got extra duty, and twice again was he 
 cautioned during the year. 
 
 Q. Then his stripe was arrested entirely on other groimds than those put 
 forward by the witness? , 
 
 A. Yes ; for general want of care. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I observe that in the description of the case given in 
 the evidence, it was suggested that the man was never on the walk before, 
 and that there was no one in the office to give him information, so that he
 
 53U Jasper C. Badcock, London. 
 
 was left entirely to ihimself to decide how to deal with the correspoudence. 
 Tliat is not quite on all fours with the exj^jlanation now given. 
 
 A. The report given at the time — on the 25th July — was that Farrant 
 was a man suitable for this particular sore of duty, and that the letters were 
 sent to him properly arranged for ordinary delivery. 
 
 Q. The witness also told us in answer to Mr. Walpole's question as to 
 whether any man had been dismissed the Service on mere suspicion, that a 
 man named Morris Mas so dismissed 18 months ago. Have you any ex- 
 planation as to that? 
 
 A. Yes ; I remember that case very well. It was the case of a cheque 
 being stolen, and Morris was dismissed for being concerned in an attempt 
 to negotiate the cheque, which another postman named Jones had stolen. 
 Morris's case was re-considered on appeal, and it came out that there had 
 been some sort of conversation Ijetweea the two men as to how they could 
 get the cheque changed. The cheque was enclosed in a letter which could 
 not be delivered, and Jones did not return that letter. Instead of doing 
 so, he consulted Morris as to how they could get the money for it, and I 
 believe they were going to halve the proceeds. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Was that proved to the satisfaction of the Postmaster- 
 General ? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : One man was actually convicted of stealing the cheque, 
 so that that part was proved to the satisfaction of the Court, was it not? 
 
 A. Yes ; it was so far established that the man pleaded guilty, and was 
 bound over to come up for judgment when called upon. 
 Mr. Smith : Then he was not punished ? 
 
 A. No. 'The Common Serjeant remarked that Jones appeared to have 
 vielded to a sudden temptition, the letter having been handed to him, and 
 his attention having been called to the valuable security which it contained. 
 He, therefore, bound Lim over in his own recognisances to come up for 
 judgment when called upon. 
 
 The Chairman : Then some evidence was given with regard to the length 
 of the walk and to the mis-delivery of letters in consequence. A man 
 complained of having been punished for a mis-delivery, in spite of the diffi- 
 culties he had to face. 
 
 A. Yes. He took a registered letter which was addressed to the Anglo- 
 Australian Bank, and wrongly delivered it to the Hong-Kong Bank The 
 letter was fully addressed, and apparently he delivered it without reading 
 the address. It was a registered letter, and he had to obtain a receipt for 
 it. He had the receipt prepared for them, with a full address upon it, 
 and he was reprimanded for the mis-delivery. His complaint was that he 
 Avas punislied twice over for one offence. Now, complaint was made to the 
 Department that the letter had been mis-delivered, and he was reprimanded 
 for that. It turned out eventually that the letter had been lost, and the 
 result of the inquiries that had been made was that it was felt that a 
 simple remand was not sufficient, and so the man was punished with four 
 hours' extra duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: When you say that the letter was lost, was it not 
 admitted that it was delivered to the Hong-Kong Bank? 
 
 A. No. They\ could not tell what had become of it. It was lost as far 
 as the addressee was concerned. 
 
 Q. He was both reprimanded then, and had extra duty? 
 A. Yes. He goes on to say that such a mistake was easily made in the 
 hurry of his duty. His stri|)e was stopped for want of general satisfaction 
 in the i>erformance of his duty. 
 
 The Chairman : Then the witness put forward the exceptional difficulty of 
 duties in certain districts performed by the man with special registered 
 carts? 
 
 A. Yes, it is a responsible duty, but it is one of the simplest duties m 
 the office. The registered letters are made up in bags, which are entered on
 
 Rebutting W. C. Herbert's Evidence. 531 
 
 a bag list, and two men are sent out with the cart in which they are con- 
 vej'ed : one man to take charge, and the other man to do the deUvery. 
 
 Q. Are these generally valuable letters? I see you have here a list re- 
 ferring to a delivery for the London and Provincial Bank? 
 
 A. Undoubtedly they are valualjle letters, for they are remittances from 
 tha branch banks to the head offices, as a rule. 
 Q. Are they cheques? 
 
 A. Yes ; and notes and n-^gotiable securities to some extent. I do not 
 think, however, that they are securities which a man would find it easy 
 to get rid of. They would not be of much, value to him. 
 Q. Practically they are not negotiable, then? 
 
 A. I think not. Of course, it would cause some little inconvenience if 
 they were lost, but there would not be much in them that a man could 
 make much use of. 
 
 Q. You dealt with the question of supernumeraries in the first part of 
 your evidence, did you not? 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Q. We have had a man here named Herbert who came to give evidence 
 rather in opposition to the Postmen's Federation, and his first point was as 
 to the sorting work performed by the postmen? 
 
 A. I think that was with regard to the town postmen generally. The 
 amount of the sorting work in the E.G. District does not differ materially 
 from work done in the other districts of London. The postmen do the 
 primary sorting in four of the divisions in which the E.G. District is 
 divided, and the letters for the suburbs for each district are placed by them. 
 Q. Mr. Herbert claims that the postmen's work in the E.G. District 
 is in many respects more, and in no case less, responsible than that of the 
 sorters. 
 
 A. I should assume that he was referring to the second-class sorters. 
 Q. Tlie next point was as to the number of registered letters dealt with ? 
 A. Yes ; he states that from 50 to 100 registered letters are taken out 
 by a man on his ordinary delivery. 
 Q. What have you to say about that? 
 
 A. It is very seldom that a man takes out 50 registered letters without 
 having assistance given him. Again, they are not single registered letters ; 
 they are in a great measure entered on one list, and tied up in one bundle. 
 They should, therefore, be treated as one letter. 
 
 Q. There would be so many registered letters go to one firm? 
 A. Yes. I will put in a copy of a list showing that. 
 Sir F. Mowatt : And this list shows the delivery for one firm? 
 A. Y^es. 
 
 The Ghairman : In giving an example, the witness said that the E.G. 
 postmen had to dispose of 31,178 registers. 
 
 A. Tliat is so, but then he was referring to the case of delivering regis- 
 tered letters only. It is a man who delivers in the stockbrokers' quarters 
 at Draper's Gardens, and I believe that more than half the letters so deli- 
 vered go to about 14 firms. 
 
 Q. Is it not the rule that a man on delivering a registered letter should 
 obtain a receipt? 
 
 A. Yes; and in addition to that the man who is responsible for this 
 deliverv is always accompanied by an assistant. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I suppose he puts them together in their respective 
 bundles before he goes out on his walk? Does he do that himself or is 
 it done for him? 
 
 A. He does it himself. 
 
 Q. Before he starts? 
 
 A. Yes ; but thev are listed before they are placed in his hands. 
 
 The Ghairman : He re-arranges the bundles ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Is it done by the sorter, then ?
 
 532 Jaspek C. Badcock, London. 
 
 A. Yes ; it is first done in the registered letter section. 
 
 TI\e Chairman : What is the rule with regard to giving assistance on these 
 registered letter deliveries ? 
 
 A. Whenever a man has a large niunber of registered letters, and sees 
 that it will hamper him in the delivery of the ordinary correspondence, 
 he would ask for assistance. 
 
 Q. And is it given in all cases of that kind? 
 
 A. Yes. I have here the return for BLshopsgate Street. On the first 
 walk tliere were 32 i-egistered letters, on another there were 48, on a third 
 46, and on a fourth 65. In each of those cases on the day mentioned ajssis- 
 tance was given. 
 
 The Cliairman : The witness also gave us instance.s of a very large number 
 of registered letters which had to be delivered by one man — in one case 101, 
 and in another 90. 
 
 A. That would be altogether abnormal. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Do you know whether this man had assistance? 
 
 A. I cannot say whether he had assistance on that occasion, but no 
 doubt he would have been granted it if he had asked for it. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you keep a good reserve of men for this assistance? 
 
 A. Yes ; 30 to 40 men are always available. 
 
 Q. Are they generally employed? 
 
 A. Yes ; to a fair extent. 
 
 Q. And what do they do when they are not so employed? 
 
 A. A gi'eat many of them are on the second delivery commencing at 
 8.30 ; they are at work in the office ; they liave to attend at 6.30. 
 
 Q. Then we have had some evidence with regard to the hardships of a 
 postman's lot. causing him to drop out of the Service at an early age. 
 Can you give us any statistics as to the age at which men do drop out? 
 
 A. I find that in the E.G. District, that in 1891 there were 5 postmen 
 who died out of a force of nearly 1.100 men; their average age was 43^. 
 In 1892 two died, and their average age was 30 years and 10 months ; in 
 1893 nine died, the average age being 38^ ; in 1894 four died, and the 
 average age was 27|. Last year five died, and the average age was 35 
 years and 5 months. During the same years the pensioners from the post- 
 men's class in the E.G. District were as follows: — In 1891, six, with an 
 average age of 54 years and 9 months ; in 1892, two were pensioned at an 
 average age of 56 years 8 months ; in 1893, four, with an average age of 
 58 years 8 months : in 1894, eight, with an average age of 52 years and 8 
 months ; and in 1895, six, with an average age of 44 years and 11 months — 
 the total being 26, with an average age of 52 years 5 months. 
 
 The Chairman : Can you give us the average age of the men in the 
 Service ? 
 
 A. I am afraid not. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Those figures do not take into accoimt the men who 
 are passed out of the postmen's class, and subsequently pensioned off? 
 
 A. No ; but still the evidence was that the postmen's work kills a man off, 
 or wears him out. I do not think it is borne out by these figures. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: When I said "passed out of the postmen's class," I 
 meant into the upper classes. 
 
 A. They would not be passed into the iipper classes if they were worn 
 out. 
 
 Q. Then your figirres do not show the full field in which these 5. 2. 9, 4. 
 and 5 deaths occurred? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 The Chairman : Would you be inclined to agree with the proposition that 
 the E.C. postmen are better off than the other postmen? 
 
 A. In what way? 
 
 Q. Generally, both as regards emoluments and duties. 
 
 A. Xo, I siiould think not ; there may be a few cases perhaps, say the 
 men on the Lombard Street walks. 
 
 1
 
 Christmas Boxes — Weight on Delivery. 533 
 
 Q. It would be confined to a very few, then? 
 
 A. Yes, comparatively few, but take tbeni all round, I should say that 
 the London District Office men are more favourably situated than are the 
 men in the E.G. District. 
 
 Q. Would you be inclmed to admit that the E.O. men have harder work 
 to do than the men in other districts of London? 
 
 A. No ; I should think not. 
 
 Q. Then you do not think they have any claim to be better paid than the 
 iren in the other districts? 
 
 A. The only ground on which such a claim could be based would be, I 
 think, the greater value of the registered letters they have to take out in 
 many cases. 
 
 Q. Now, do not answer this if you prefer not to, but do you not think 
 that if tlie Christmas box system is to continue, the wliole body of postmen 
 should share in it, and not only a few men? Or do you prefer the present 
 arrangement by which the senior men get it? 
 
 A. Are you speaking of the E.C. District only? 
 
 Q. I was rather putting it as a general proposition. 
 
 A. Well, the system of dividing Christmas boxes is settled among them- 
 selves, and it differs in different districts. In my opinion, the proper 
 way would be to liave an equal share throughout an office. It does not 
 matter to the public whether a postman delivers or he collects ; their idea 
 is to give the Christmas box. On the other hand, the senior men in the 
 E.C. District, for instance, have borne the heat and burden of the day 
 for years : they had but a small share when they were juniors, and it 
 would be rather hard to take it away from them just when they are about 
 to reap the benefit of their long service. This is where the difficulty comes 
 in. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Do you say there would be no practical difficulty in saying 
 that the Christmas boxes should be shared equally in an office? 
 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. No difficulty in enforcing such a regulation? 
 
 A. Oh, no ; but I do say it would be rather hard on the senior men 
 who liave had to tak3 a small share in the past ; it would constitute a 
 hardship in their case. 
 
 The Chaiiman : Then some question was raised as to the heavy weights 
 carried by the E.C. postmen? Have you any rule in rega*d to assistance 
 being given in the case of postmen carrying out weights in the E.C. 
 District? 
 
 A. No ; there is no hard and fast rule. The point of commencement of 
 the different deliveries is, of course, very different in districts. A maa 
 might take out a very heavy load and begin to get rid of it directly. He 
 might go, for instance, from the G.P.O. to a delivery in Paternoster Row ; 
 we should not give that man assistance so readily as a man who had to 
 go to Mincing Lane before he got rid of any portion of his load. Some 
 examples were given. The first was the Billiter Sqviare delivery. In the 
 first section of that the weight carried was 60 lbs., in the second section 
 was 65 lbs., and that man got assistance; in the third section it was 72 
 lbs., and that man got assistance; in the fifth section was 43 lbs.; 
 then at Cornhill the weight in the first section was 45 lbs., that 
 man got assistance. In the second it was 70, in the third 65, and in the 
 fourth 66. Then in the Bishopsgate walk, in the first section the weight 
 was 62 lbs., and that man was assisted; in the fourth section it was 84 
 lbs., and he was assisted; and in the sixth it was 65 lbs., and he was 
 assisted, so that assistance was given pretty freely, it will be seen. I may 
 say that all the postmen do not go out at the same time, and it is there- 
 fore possible that a postman who starts early with a moderately heavy load 
 may ask for assistance and get it, whereas a man who starts later with as 
 heavy a load would be unable to get assistance, as all the men would be 
 engaged. Still, as a rule, the men who start late are the men who deliver
 
 534 Jasper C. Badcock, London. 
 
 close to the office, and, therefore, they would not have the same need for 
 assistance. 
 
 Q. Do you generally have men enough to give the assistance asked for? 
 
 A. I think so. 
 
 Q. Are you often obliged to refuse it? 
 
 A. No ; a great many of the men do not care for assistance. Tliey 
 would rather take out their bag and do the work their own way, than be 
 bothered by some one helping them. 
 
 Q. I think that concludes the evidence to which we have to call your 
 attention. Are you prepared to go into the case of the labourers to-day? 
 
 A. I am afraid not. 
 
 Q. Or the points raised bv the ladies we had before us? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. There is one question I was going to ask you ; it was on a different 
 subject. Can you tell me anything as to a recent rule with regard to the 
 employment of auxiliary sorters? 
 
 A. Yes. In the E.G. Circulation Office we had some auxiliary sorters 
 mainly in the newspaper branch, and it has been decided to do without 
 assistance of that kind, and to fill the places by established appointments. 
 
 Q. Are there many of these men? 
 
 A. About 30, I think. 
 
 Q. Are they of considerable service any number of them? 
 
 A. Yes. If you remember, you had one here — Richardson. 
 
 Q. Yes ; he had been a long time in the Service. Wliat are you going 
 to do in their case? 
 
 A. It has been decided that men of that standing may be allowed to stand 
 against established vacancies, but they must have had at least 7 years' ser- 
 vice. The Treasury tell us that if the men have not been there 7 years 
 they must go. 
 
 Q. Is theie no discretion as regards individual cases. A man might be 
 a good and useful man, and of good character, and it seems rather hard 
 to turn him away because he has not done 7 years' service? 
 
 A. No. The Treasury have laid it down that if a man has not been 
 there 7 years he must go. We are asking for kind forbearance for two of 
 the men, but so far we have not succeeded in convincing the authorities 
 that their services should be retained. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Was not what the Treasury said, not that they would 
 not promote the men, but that they would not give them a gratuity? 
 There is an Act of Parliament which says that where a person who is not 
 entitled to a pension leaves the Servic:; before he has been 7 years in it, 
 there is no power to give him any gratuity on his leaving. 
 
 A. No ; I tliink the Treasury decision was that they could not allow 
 these men to block other created employments. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is so. 
 
 The Chairman: Is there anything else you wish to add, Mr. Badcock? 
 
 A. I should like to mention, if I might be allowed to, the case of Roberts, 
 of Hampstead, which was brought before the Committee by Mr. Church- 
 field on Thursday. It is a case of alleged intimidation. The charge was 
 that because reference had been made to Roberts not beuag supplied with 
 uniform, he had been told that he must seek other employment. I am 
 assured by the Pcstmaster that that had nothing whatever to do with his 
 case. Roberts, since the evidence was given, was acting as the opener of 
 parcels receptacles, and one of the first duties of an opener, indeed, one of 
 his most important duties, is to immediately look for the letter bill or 
 parcel bill ; that is the only way of proving that the despatch has not been 
 tampered with. It is his first duty to find that bill, and if he cannot 
 find it he should immediately report the fact to his superintending officer, 
 in order that he may satisfy himself that it is not there. Well, on this 
 particular occasion, the bill could not be found, and Roberts failed to report
 
 The Case of Roberts, Hampstead — A Eetiaction. 535 
 
 it. On being questioned, he said that no bill came, but subsequently the 
 bill was found under tlie string of a parcel sent out for delivery. It was 
 an act of gross carelessness. He was an unestablished man ; he had applied 
 for a permanent appointment, but his history was this : —In October, 1895, 
 he was reported for treating parcels recei^tacles in a rough and reckless 
 manner, and smashing the parcels. He was reported by the inspector, and 
 punished by extra duty, and warned that his services would be dispensed 
 with unless his conduct improved. In November, 1895, there was a parcel 
 for him to deliver ; it was addressed to No. 1 in a certain road. To save 
 himself the trouble of delivering it, he altered the number to 37, tlius 
 causing it to be put into the hands of another postman to deliver, and 
 consequently the delivery was delayed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Was that proved ? 
 
 A. Yes ; he admitted it. 
 
 Q. And was he dismissed on the spot? 
 
 A. No ; the overseer described him as totally unreliable, and he was 
 finally warned. " 
 
 Q. Why was he not dismissed? 
 
 A. Well, he ought to have been. On the 31st January he was cautioned ; 
 on the 24th February he failed to attend on his morning duty, and was 
 seriously cautioned again ; and in March came this case of not reporting 
 a bill being lost. Then the Postmaster directed that he should be cautioned, 
 and also that he look out for other employment. He had been informed 
 that under the revision at Hampstead a number of established appoint- 
 ments had been created, but it had been decided not to recommend him 
 for one. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The main fact you have brought out is that he ought to 
 have been dismissed last November? 
 
 A. I think so. There is just one other case I should like to mention. 
 When I was giving my evidence last Thursday, Mr. Wilson tried to inter- 
 vene. I was dealing with the number of postmen at Hampstead. I now 
 find I mis-stated that number, and that I mixed up the number of the 
 proposed established men with the present number of auxiliary men. Mr. 
 Wilson at once saw the error. The mistake was quite imintentional. I 
 was simply trying to show at the time that in this division we are en- 
 deavouring to abolish part-time duties. I gave 11 less for the established 
 places under the revision than I should have done. I said there were 42 
 established men and 76 auxiliary, and that there would be 65 established 
 and 52 auxiliary under the new revision. I should hive said there would 
 be 76 established and 42 auxiliary. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You said you would obtain for us information as to the 
 number of auxiliary postmen in the different zones. 
 
 A. Yes ; I have here a statement showing the nimiber of the auxiliary 
 postmen grouped in zones. I may mention that this has been compiled 
 from the records of the Controller's office, and it may not be strictly ac- 
 curate, but it would be so within a little. 
 
 Q. In general terms what does it shoAv? 
 
 A. It shows that in the town offices there are 3 049 established postmen 
 and 295 auxiliaries. In Zone 1 there are 785 established and 619 auxiliaries. 
 In Zone 2, 1254 and 1,328 respectively. In Zone 3, 217 and 294; and in 
 Zone 4,. 11 and 17. 
 
 Q. May I take it as a general rule the proportion of auxiliaries to es- 
 tablished men inerea-ses as we get further from the centre? 
 
 A. I think so ; the reason being that the duties there are much less 
 frequent. 
 
 Q. And there is more difficulty in making them into full-time duties? 
 
 A. Yes ; we have to get a larger force on the first delivery in the morning 
 in order to cover the larger area of ground.
 
 536 
 
 Jasper C. Badcock, Loudon, 
 
 Q. Are there many telegraph messengers waiting for appointment? 
 
 A. Yes ; there are 140 at present. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : 140 ? 
 
 A. Yes ; they are emploj^ed as auxiliary postmen pending their appoint- 
 ment on the establishment. 
 
 Q. Is that in the whole of the zones — 140 among the lot? 
 
 A. Yes ; in the London district. 
 
 The Cliairman : That is all at present, Mr. Badcock. I am much obliged 
 to you.
 
 E. B. LEWIN HILL, Esq. 
 Kebuts the Provincial Case. 
 
 Westminster, lUtli March, 1896. 
 
 Mr. Lewin Hill M'as then called and examined in regard to the case of the 
 provincial postmen. 
 
 TIk; Chairman : You are commander-in-chief of the provincial postmen, 
 I think? 
 
 A. Yes ; under the Secretary I deal with them. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me the total number of men for whom you are respon- 
 sible? 
 
 A. In the provinces? Shall I give them in each class? 
 
 Q. Please. 
 
 A. The number of established postmen is 11,778 ; the number of sub- 
 office postmen who really are town postmen in the sense that they do not 
 deliver long rural walks, is 1,592, and the number of rural postmen is 
 7,04^1 — that makes a total of 20,414 established postmen. In addition to 
 that, the number of auxiliary postmen is 10,563, making a total of 31,067 
 esk'bli.shed and auxiliary postmen in the provinces. 
 
 Q. Does this comprehend everybody you employ? 
 
 A. Yes, everybody we employ under these designations. We have an 
 allowance to sub-postmasters of £4 per year, for a man who works half-an- 
 hour or an hour per day, or whatever it may be, but we regard that as a 
 duty provided for by the allowance. 
 
 Q. And these men are absolutely under the control of the local Post- 
 inaster. and are not under your control? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so. 
 
 Q. And your payment is made to the Postmaster, and not to the man 
 direct' 
 
 A. Exactly so. 
 
 Q. And you leave him to make whatever arrangements he likes as to 
 whom he employs? 
 
 A. Yes, broadly speaking. 
 
 Mr. Waljx)le : Except that you insist on his paying the allowance? 
 
 A. Yes ; if it is an allowance of as much as 5s. per week, we make the 
 sub-postmaster produce a receipt, but when it is an aJlowance of less jser 
 year we do not. The duty may be done by his daughter, his son, or even 
 liimself, and we do not trouble about that. 
 
 The Chairman : Tlien with regard to the various classes you have given 
 us, are they not again sub-classified? 
 
 A. Yes, they are ; now, with regard to established town postmen on 
 a scale, there are 11,628, and of junior town postmen on scale there are 
 107, of town postmen at fixed wages there are 43, These are men who are 
 too old or who for some other reason caimot be put on the establishment ; 
 the total is 11,773. As to the class of junior town postmen, which, as you 
 are aware, is a moribund class, we are getting rid of the men as opportunity 
 offers. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Are the whole of the town postmen established town 
 postmen ? 
 
 A. I was not quite correct in what I stated just noAv. I am reminded 
 that some of the town postmen on fixed wages do not do a full day's 
 work, they only work 6 hours, and therefore we do not put them on scale. 
 They are not called auxiliaries ; I do not know why. 
 
 Q. We may take it that eventually the whole of the established town 
 postmen will be on scale?
 
 538 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 A. Certainly, I think so. A more proper designation for those men who 
 do not do a full day's work would he auxiliaries. Of the sub-office postmen, 
 the number established on scale is 1,504, and the number established on fixed 
 wages is 88, making a total of 1,592. Of the rural postmen, the number 
 established on scale is 6,573, and on fixed wages 371. With regard to the 
 majority of the 371 on fixetl wages, the reason that they are not on scale 
 is that their work is not considered to be a full day's work. We have great 
 difficulty in defining what constituted a full day's work, and among the 
 definitions we have made most of these men do not come in so as to get 
 on the scale. 
 
 The Ciiairman : In what proportion are the auxiliary postmen divided 
 among the three classes? 
 
 A. I have not the figures by me, but probably about one-half of the 
 auxiliaries work in to^vns, and the other half are what are called rural 
 auxiliaries. 
 
 Q. What are your methods of appointments to the various classes? 
 
 A. I may say there is no difference. Before I deal with^ that I may 
 mention that a large number do outdoor postal duties, which are provided 
 for in the country by men who have a small allowance. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Before you leave this point, let me ask you whether out 
 of the 20,414 established postmen, 19,805 are not on scale? 
 
 A. Yes, I will take that from you. The town postmen are recruited 
 now from the telegraph messengers and from auxiliary postmen who ha.ve 
 been some time in the Service. Failing these, they are recruited by ex- 
 soldiers and ex-sailors? 
 
 The Chairman : Do yon find that you have an adequate supply of suit- 
 able men? 
 
 A. I think we have mofe than an adequate supply ; the difficulty is to 
 provide for our telegraphic messengers and our auxiliaries — those men who 
 are doing a double duty. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, are almost all your established appointments 
 given to telegraph messengers and auxiliary postmen? 
 
 A. I believe so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would that not be the case in the towns, but not in the 
 rural districts? 
 
 A. I have guarded myself by confining my statements to town postmen. 
 In Sir James Fergusson's time the rural postmanships were largely reserved 
 fo" old soldiers. 
 
 Q. Now we have altered that, and give the first claim to our own jwople. 
 And, a.s a matter of fact, are not our own force tending more and more 
 year after year to absorb the vacancies? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Tliree years ago they absorbed about half of them ? 
 
 A. Yes ; the rural postm.en in Sir James Fergusson'.s time were recruited 
 almost entirely from old soldiers, and it was not held that our own people 
 had any claim to them. 
 
 Q. In the rural districts soldiers are still frequently appointed. 
 
 A. Yes, I think so. 
 
 The Ciiairman : Can you readily tell me how many telegra.ph messengers 
 you have in the country? 
 
 A. I can put that in. 
 
 Q. Does the same rule prevail in the country as in London with regard 
 to the appointment of telegraph messengers as postmen? 
 
 A. Yes ; I should say the same rule. 
 
 Q. Is there a weeding-out of the telegraph messengers at 16 years of age? 
 
 A. We have ordered it, and I think the weeding-out is already in exis- 
 tence in the provinces, but in London it has not lieen carried so far, I 
 think, owing to the paternal feeling at the appointment branch of our 
 office. Every effort seems to be made to keep in anybody who can pos- 
 sibly scrape tlirough ; but the arm of that branch is not long enough to
 
 Telegraph Messengers. 539 
 
 reach the country Postmasters, wlio get rid of the unsatisfactory lads be- 
 fore the boys become too old, and so they never come under the notice of 
 the appointment branch of tlie Secretary's Department. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us what certainty a telegraph messenger has of becoming 
 a postman, if he is of good conduct and gives satisfaction to the Department? 
 
 A. Hitlierto I think there have been more than enough vacancies to 
 provide for good telegraph boys. 
 
 !Mr. Walpole : Is it not the case at Birmingham that they have been 
 unable to provide for the whole number of telegraph messengers, and that 
 in consequence the Postmaster has made a strict weeding-out at 16? 
 
 A. That is not in accordance with my recollection. Until recently — 
 that is, until the last three or four years — ^at Birmingham the telegraph 
 messengers were regarded as a very misatisfactory body of persons to make 
 postmen of, and the Postmaster was so loth to take them t'uat he used to 
 bring young men in from the coimtry in preference. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : For medical reasons ? 
 
 A. Yes, for medical and general reasons. The boys were not a good 
 enough class. In a thriving city like that, where there is such an great 
 variety of employment, the pay we offered was not enough' to get a class 
 of boys fit to make into good postmen ; but Birmingham is perhaps rather 
 an exceptional town in that respsct. The Postmaster, who is a very 
 capable man, seeks to get rid of the superfluous or unsatisfactory boys early 
 enough to give them an opportunity of getting on elsewliere, instead of 
 keeping them until they are too old. 
 
 The Chairman : Are any proportion of the sorting clerks' places open to 
 telegraph messengers ? 
 
 A. Yes, in the country ; open in a sense, that a Postmaster, if he has a 
 telegraph boy who gives good promise of being fit for a sorting clerk's place, 
 might get him such an appointment. And, so far as I have observed, the 
 smaller the town the better the class of boy we get for telegraph messenger. 
 In the large towns — take London, for mstance — ma^iy i)eople don't like the 
 lads to have the run of tlie streets at 13 or 14 yeirs of age. At Dublin, 
 there is, in addition, such a dislike of wearing uniform iliat you cannot 
 get a good class of boys as telegraph messengers, but in a country town 
 like Colchester, or towns of that size, we get a good many telegi-aph mes- 
 sengers, whose fathers are tradesmen in the place, and who have had a 
 decent education. In the aggregate, many telegraph messengers have been 
 appointed sorting clerics, or have been made telegraphists. 
 
 Q. You have no fixed proportion of the sorting clerkships set aside for 
 telegraph messengers ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is left in the country entirely to the discretion of the 
 Postmasters? 
 
 A. Yes ; the Postmaster would naturally take an intelligent and well- 
 behaved boy whom he knew in preference to a stranger. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : I presume the scale for telegraph messengers is 
 not the same all over the country? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Then it can be adjusted m order to get the best boys? 
 
 A. In the main, they are paid by results, say ^d. or |d. for each telegram 
 delivered, or even Id! in some cases, or less than sd. in other cases, ac- 
 cording to what we call the docket rate. It is fixed at such an amount 
 as will secure us the boys we want in different towns. 
 
 Q. When it breaks down in a city like Binningham, that object is not 
 realised ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: But you have power to raise the docket rate? 
 
 A. Yes ; certainly we can raise the docket rate where necessary. I think 
 that Birmingham stands by itself.
 
 540 Mr. E. B/Lewin Hill. 
 
 Mr. Smith : There you have a very large number of small workshops 
 where bovs can find employment? 
 
 A. Yes" 
 
 The Chairman : Have you any complaints from telegraph messengers of 
 being turned adrift after being some time in the employment of the Post 
 Office? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Of course I mean without proper cause? 
 
 A. I think I should have heard it if there had been such cases. I may 
 mention here that it seems to me that the proper way out of the difficulty 
 of finding places for telegraph messengers is for the office in London, or 
 whatever it may be, to ascertain the probable number of vacancies in the 
 ranlcs to which telegraph messengers can rise, and to weed out the staff 
 at 16, so as not to have more left at that age than can fill those vacancies. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : You would squeeze out more at 16 years of age ? 
 
 A. Certainly, so as not to have many boys for whom we cannot find 
 places, or whom we have to make auxiliai'ies for a considerable time. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You would discontinue a boy at 16 for fear you should 
 have to discontinue him at 18? 
 
 A. Yes ; that seems to me the best way out of the difl&culty. 
 
 Q. Wlien do they enter as a rule? 
 
 A. From 13 to 15 ; 13 is the minimum, I think. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : You get them straight from school in many cases ? 
 
 A. Yes, subject to examination. 
 
 The Chairman : What are the limits of age for appointing provincial 
 postmen ? 
 
 A. From 18 to 30 years, with an extension in the case of pensioners 
 and axmy reserve men. 
 
 Q. Does that apply to all the different classes you have mentioned? 
 
 A. Yes ; I believe so. 
 
 Q. You require them to pass an examination? 
 
 A. Yes, a very simple one. Writing tolerably a few lines, reading 
 manuscript, and addition — simple and compound. Tliese subjects seem 
 to us exceedingly simple, but I remember 30 or 35 years ago we had often 
 difficulty in getting postmen to pass that examination. The rule was that 
 if the vacancy was in England or Scotland, we nominated two or three men, 
 because if we had only nominated one, and he had failed, we should have 
 had the trouble of a second examination. In Ireland a candidate was more 
 sure to get through, but was not worth so much when he had passed ; we 
 would often much rather have an Englishman or Scotchman who could not 
 pass than the Irishman who could. (Laughter.) 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : The Irishmen, then, have a large faculty for passing 
 examinations ? 
 
 A. Yes, for passing examinations, but not for being useful. (Laughter.) 
 
 The Chairman : Do you have many cases of rejection for not being able 
 to pass an examination? 
 
 A. I cannot conceive that we have. This educational examination is 
 the commonest drug in the market, and it would be rather difficult to get 
 any person who could not pass it. A man who did fail might be entitled 
 to some superior appointment. He would be a remarkable person. The 
 candidates are much more frequently rejected on medical grounds, or on 
 account of cl^iracter. 
 
 Q. What are your rules with regard to medical examination in the 
 provinces ? 
 
 A. Exactly the same as in London. The candidate is examined by the 
 local medical officer. 
 
 Q. The .same period of probation? 
 
 A. Yes ; two years. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us what are the ordinary duties of a country postman? 
 
 A. The ordinarv duties consist of the collection an<l delivery of postal
 
 The Principle on"which~the Scales of Pay are based. 541 
 
 packets of all kinds. In large towns in the provinces some postmen are 
 specially selected to act as stampers, messengers, and sorters, and they 
 receive special allowances ranging from 2s. to 7s. a week. The higher 
 allowance of 7s. is usually confined to postmen who divide the letters into 
 walks for a number of postmen. They have to do really good work, and 
 night work. Some men divide 20 or 30 lots of letters for different walks. 
 There may also be one or two men who get 7s. a week for acting as fore- 
 man mail porters, as at Crewe or Stafford, and who take charge of the 
 other mail messengers : otherwise the allowances are from 2s. in the 
 small toAvns to 5s. in such towns as Liverpool and Manchester. 
 
 Q. Can you tell me what are the scales of payment for these different 
 classes of men? 
 
 A. Yes ; taking first the provincial town postmen, the highest scale is 
 17s. rising by Is. to 30s., and the number of men on that scale is 2,888; 
 the next scale is 17s. by Is. to 28s., and the number on that scale is 1,994; 
 the next scale is 17s. by Is. to 26s., at which the i^resent numbers are 2,308 ; 
 then come those at 17s. by Is. to 24s., total 1,842; 16is. by Is. to 24s., 
 total 784; next, 16s. by Is. to 22s., total 1,732; next, 16s. by Is. to 20s, 
 total 3 ; then there is a scale of 15s. by Is. to 20s., total 64, which latter 
 is. confined to Ireland. 
 
 Q. Can j'ou tell me on what principle these various scales are based? 
 
 A. They are based, so far as we could, according to the value of labour 
 in the several towns and the cost of living. Up to the time of the Fawcett 
 revision in 1882 — in which about £100,000 was spent on the postmen — the 
 wages in each town were fixed mdependent of any other town, according 
 to what it was foimd necessary to pay in that particular town. As long as 
 we could get a sufficient supply of qualified men, we did not increase the 
 pay. Mr. Fawcett's scheme was really in disregard of that standard, and 
 the wage of the postmen in each town was raised by 2s., so that those towns 
 where the wages were already high, having been fixed at a higher amount 
 owing to difiiculty in getting the people we wanted, remained relatively 
 high. In the revisicm of Mr. Riikes in 1891, as regards the toMTi 2>ost- 
 men, we followed pretty much the same practice, and added 2s. all round, 
 and with the same result — that the large towns where we knew the cost of 
 living was greater got the higher scale. 
 
 Q. Is it not possible that as the result of that scheme you are in some 
 places paying more than the value of the la])our, while in other places you 
 are paying less than the value of the labour? 
 
 A. I should say that in all places we are paying more than the value of 
 the labour, but in some places less .so than in others. 
 
 Q. As I understand, your principle in calculating wages has been based 
 not on the value of the services but on what you consider to be the rate 
 of \va.i;e3 in tlm particular jiliic s for a'ialo,2:ous duties? 
 
 A. All the revisions before Mr. Fawcett's time have followed from ex 
 pericnce. 
 
 Q. It seems to me that you pay a different rate of wage in two different 
 towns of a somewhat similar character for exactly the same work? 
 
 A. Yes. We are always getting applications, and we are always trj'ing 
 to put people on an equality, but it is a very difficult matter to decide. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Tlie expenses of living are different in different towns? 
 
 A. Yes; Init in every town the men one and all declare — and, I think, 
 honestly believe — that their town is the very dearest in the whole of the 
 United Kingdom. I have never been in a place where they did not tell 
 me that. Tliey always say that, and they always think it. 
 
 The Chairman : In these different revisions h.ave you taken any means to 
 ascertain what is the difference in the cost of living in these various places? 
 
 A. Yes ; we have collected a great deal of information, which will be 
 found in the appendices to the report of the Committee on Postmen of 
 1890-91.
 
 642 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When these applications for increased pay come before us, 
 don't we take care in every case to find out what is the pay of the police, 
 or other typical kinds of labour in those places and compare tlieni? 
 
 A. Yes, we do ; and we endeavour so far as we can to deal equally witli 
 the postmen in towns of like importance, but it is very difficult to decide 
 what constitutes equality. In tlie old days we gave more pay when we 
 found that we could not get men, and it was easy then to find out what 
 we must jxiy ; but practically in all tov.'ns at present we are already pay- 
 ing more than we need to in order to get and keep the class of men we 
 want. 
 
 The Chairman : You have nine different scales for town postmen in tlie 
 provinces. Don't you think it is possible to simplify these scales and 
 reduce their number? 
 
 A. I think they could be reduced somewhat, but it seems to me that there 
 ought to be a marked difference between tlie pay of postmen in very large 
 towns and the pay of postmen in smaller towns. The value of labour 
 and the cost of living are greater in the large tfjwns. 
 
 Mr. Wali)ole : Have you observed from the general report on the wages 
 of the labouring classes in the United Kingdom that there are in it similar 
 variations in the price of labour as tliere is in our Service? Are there 
 not varying rates of labour in diiferent trades m diflferent parts of the 
 country, such as Lord Tweedmouth has referred to in the Post Office? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In the case, for instance, of the masons, do not their wages vary 
 from 29s. to 39s. 5d. per week, and so in other trades? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : I suppose the smaller number of scales you have 
 the greater will be the certainty that you ■will be paying too much in some 
 places and too little in others, considering the enormous number of varia- 
 tions in the cost of living and in the rates of wages throughout the 
 country. - 
 
 A. I don't think we ever pay too littls to get the class of people we want. 
 
 Q. That depends on wliat you want. There might be the alternative of 
 paying low and getting bul services, and paying dear for good services. 
 
 A. We have always paid enough to get and keep the men we wanted. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the aase that the wages of masons in Lanca- 
 shire vary from 29s. to 35s. 9d.. a difference of 6s. 9d. ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : But your variations are more ; they are from 20s. to 
 28s.? 
 
 A. That may be so at the maximum, but not at the minimum. I may 
 mention a kind of case we have not infrequently to consider. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There are only three men at 20s. 
 
 The Chairman : There are also the Irishmen. 
 
 Witness : In a large town in the West of England there are postmen who 
 ask for more wages, and they point to the fact that similar towns in the 
 North of England have perhaps better pay tlian themselves. We are per- 
 fectly well aware that in these towns in Lancashire, all within moderate 
 distance of Manchester or Liverpool— great manufacturing centres — the value 
 of labour is higher tlian in the West of England, even though the town in 
 the West of England be larger than some of the Lancashire towns to 
 which I have referred. So far as I have had any voice in settling such a 
 demand, I have adhered to the value of labour. It does not matter so much 
 what the size of the town is as what the value of labour is. In the Lan- 
 cashire towns, if we were to cut down the pay to the lowest scale, we could 
 not get the people, although very likely we could get them in the west 
 country. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: With regard to the two lowest scales, 16s. to 20s., and 
 15s. to 20s., there appear to be only 67 men in both of them together?
 
 Scales of Pay after the Fawcett Revision. 
 
 543 
 
 Q. So that Tre may take the real minor scale as 16s. to 223. ? 
 A. les. The juQ'or town postmen are a small moribmvl class at certain 
 laroje towns in Ensrland and Wales. 
 
 
 Scales. 
 
 
 15s. 
 
 Is. 
 
 17s. 
 
 14s. 
 
 Is. 
 
 16s 
 
 13s. 
 
 Is. 
 
 16s 
 
 12s. 
 
 Is. 
 
 16s 
 
 107 
 
 Q. You are abolishing that class altogether? 
 
 A. Yes ; nobody in that class is supposed to do a full day's work — pro- 
 bably 62 hours m a day — but it has been regarded as a stepping-stone. 
 
 Q. Have tliey had other employment? 
 
 A. They are suppo.sed to be telegraph messengers who were not quite 
 strong enough to give a full 8 hours' attendance. This scale gave them 
 rather better pay than they got as telegraph messengers, so that it was a 
 rise for the messengers. 
 
 Q. You are making no new appointments to that class? 
 
 A. I believe not. 
 
 Q. You have now something to tell us about the rural postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. These were all fixed on weekly wages (not on scale) up to the 
 year 1891. 
 
 Wa^es before 1S91. 
 
 
 Scales authorised in ISni, 
 
 Present 
 
 Revision Fixed. 
 
 Numbers. 
 
 and still in force. 
 
 Numbers. 
 
 203. 
 
 16 
 
 17s. Is. 24s. 
 
 22 
 
 19s. 
 
 39 
 
 ]7s. 1?. 22s. 
 
 78 
 
 18s. 
 
 452 
 
 17s. Is. 21s. 
 
 647 
 
 17s. 
 
 774 
 
 
 
 168. 
 
 1,789 
 
 
 
 l.'is. 
 
 1,173 
 
 Ifls. Is. 20s. 
 
 2,694 
 
 14s. 
 
 552 
 
 15s. Is. 19s. 
 
 2,533 
 
 13s. 
 
 171 
 
 14s. Is. 18s ) In 
 138. Is. 17s. j Ireland. 
 
 191 
 
 12s. 
 
 171 
 
 508 
 
 lis. 
 
 43 
 
 
 
 lOs. 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 Total, ... 
 
 5,184 
 
 Total, 
 
 6,673* 
 
 * It will be seen from this that there aa'e five scales applicable to England 
 and two which are only applied to Ireland. 
 
 Witness : Perhaps I may mention the fact thait Mr. Fawcett's revision 
 of postmen's wages in 1882 was confined to town postmen, and that prac- 
 tically the only advantage which these rural postmen obtained out of that 
 revision was good comluct stripes ; of course that was a great advantage. 
 Frc.m what tlie papers in the office show, we know that Mr. Fawcett in- 
 tended to follow up the revision of the town postmen by a revision of the 
 rural postmen. But this was not done, and from various causes that re- 
 vision did not come until 9 years later. In the interim a great deal was 
 done to incr-ia.se the pay of the rural postmen one by one, even for 10 
 years prior to the revision of 1891 we had done a good deal, for we learned
 
 544 Mr. E. IJ. Lewin Hill. 
 
 that in many cases the rural postmen were not paid enough to induce them 
 to stay in the Service. Tliat was a case of l)eing guided hy the law of 
 supply and demand. I have already quoted the scales authorised in 1891 
 aaid still in force. 
 
 Q. In these scales I suppose you are governed by the same general ideas? 
 
 A. Yes ; we fixed the scales for the rural i)ostmen in relation to those of 
 the town postman. 
 
 Q. Do not the classes of town postmen and rural postmen sometimes 
 tail into each other ; in the case, for insfemce, of rural postmen starting from 
 a town office and doing similar work? 
 
 A. Yes ; in the Committee of 1891 we recognised that there were no 
 sufficient grounds for i)aying rural postmen who started from a town office 
 less than town postmen who worked in the town, hut their pay previously 
 was so very much less that we ^\ere afraid to propose to put them on an 
 equality. 
 
 Q. Still, so far as you have gone, you woidd be of opinion that the rural 
 postman who lives in a given town an 1 starts from the head office of that 
 town to deliver in the rural districts ought to be on the sime scale of pay 
 as the town postman there? 
 
 A. Yes, certainly. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In certain cises we promote the rural postmen stiirtin.:; 
 from a town to town postmen's places? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. So that practically such a man lias a chance of reaching the town 
 postmen's maximum? 
 
 A. Yes ; but when a man has been a rural postman for 8 or 10 years he is 
 often not well fitted for the position of town postman. He does his own 
 work well enough, but he is slower and quieter, and the Postmaster does 
 not always like to bring in a man who would not be quick enough for the 
 town work. 
 
 The Chainnan : Then what is your rule with regard to the pay of aux- 
 iliaries ? 
 
 A. Our rule, I think, is this — At present we pay not less than 4d. an hour, 
 but when a man does two duties, or even when he is in a large town, 
 or where labour is scarce, we pay somewliat more ; but with regard to 
 auxiliaries we adhere much more strictly to the plan of fixing the pay at 
 what we can get suitable persons for than we do in the case of the town 
 postmen. 
 
 Q. What is your maximum pay per hour to an auxiliary? 
 
 A. A little over 5d. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is in the provinces ? 
 
 A. Yes ; a little over 5d. is the highest. 
 
 Q. Whether in town or country? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. It runs from 4d. to 5d.? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is below the mean, and much below the maximum rate of 
 pay per hour for established men, who have many advantages which the 
 auxiliaries have not, but in the case of tlie auxiliaries wo have gone on a 
 different principle, and we have fixed their pay according to the market 
 value of labour. 
 
 After a short adjournment the examination of the witness was re- 
 sumed : — 
 
 The Chairman : Besides these wages, what other advantages in the way 
 of allowances, or stripes, or uniform, etc.. do they get? 
 
 A. In the first place they are entitled to three good conduct stripes 
 under the terms already described, two being certain, and the third being 
 given according to the number of vacancies. 
 
 Q. Then you have a limit also for the rural postmen as to the third 
 stripe? 
 
 A. Yes ; the same limit — one-third.
 
 E. B. LEWIN HILL, Esq., Joint Third Secretary to the Post OflBce. 
 Departmental Witness for the Provincial Case.
 
 The Allotment of the " Third Stripe." 545 
 
 Q. Amongst tlie rural nun have you any who have been refused the 
 third stripe? 
 
 A. I thiuk there are some in one or two districts. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the case tliat we are altering the whole system, 
 and, instead of breaking up the country into so many districts for the pur- 
 pose of apportioning these stripes, we are treating the whole country as 
 one district? 
 
 A. Yes ; so as to secure equality in the allotment of tlie stripes. 
 
 The Chairman : Your auxiliaries have no stripe? 
 
 A. None. 
 
 Q. The auxiliaries have none of these advantages except the uniform? 
 
 A. That is the only advantage they have ; I think in some places they 
 are allowed to see the doctor. 
 
 Q. Tlie established men invariably have medical attendance? 
 
 A. Except in the very small towns, where there is not a sufficient num- 
 ber of postal patients to induce a doctor to accept our terms of 7s. or 8s. 
 per head. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The established men have access to a doctor whenever 
 there is a medical man to have nccess to? 
 
 A. Ye.s. In addition to free medical attendance and free medicine, the 
 postmen have full pay during sickness, and pensions, and — wliat is still 
 more important — permanency of employment. In that respect all of us in 
 the Postal Service stand in a. uriifpie position. From top to bottom our 
 men are certain, as long as they conduct themselves reasonably well, to 
 retain their maximum pay down to the last day they remam in tlie Service, 
 and wliatever their clas.s may !«, wliether postmen or sorting clerks, or 
 'telegraphists, or officers of higher gi-ade, thej' continue, failuig misconduct, 
 'to rise to the maximum pay of their class quits regardless of whether 
 they are wortli the higher jxiy tliat they get' from year to year. When a 
 postman gets past the b?st of his work, and can no longer get the same full 
 duty, he is allotted ea.sier and let down easily, so that lie may hold on to 
 the Service with the maximum pay given to the class so long as there 
 is any pretence for doing so. And tliat certainty of employment seems to 
 ims to be the most marked advantage that we Civil Servants have over 
 outside employees. We never fear the failure of our employers. We never 
 fear the caprice of our employers, but we are as certain that week by 
 week we shall get our pay — tliat is. in the causes where it is paid weekly — • 
 as we are that the sim will rise to-morrow ; in fact, the only doubt is 
 whether we sliall l)e alive to receive it. Then, as the Cliairman asked me 
 as to what tlie advantages are, I should add tliat there is the fortnight's 
 hoHday. 
 
 Q. I WIS asking more about the money advantages at the moment, leaving 
 over the lioliday question for the present. Your view is that the provincial 
 postmen are paid a full wage already? 
 
 A. I hold that the provincial postmen and the London postmen, too, 
 as a body, are not only paid fully up to the market value of their labour, 
 but in excess of the market value of their labour. (" Oh, oh.") 
 
 Q. Have you any comparative evidence of the wages paid to postmen in 
 other countries? 
 
 A. Tlie Committee have already heard a statement of the rate of post- 
 men's pay in the United States. Some witness showed tliat the wages there 
 are much higher than here. I was recently in Belgium and in Paris on 
 Post Office business, and I learned the rate of wages paid in each country, 
 but I am sorrv that I omitted to note with sufficient care the rate of wages 
 in France. They were, I think, a little higher than in Belgium. In Brus- 
 sels, Antwerp, and Glient, and a few other of the larger cities, the post- 
 men's pay is a little imder 16s. a week to start. They get 1,000 francs 
 a year to begin with, and rise to a maximum of 21s. 6d. per week. The 
 increment is not given to them every year, but when it is given it is on 
 iiicrement of Is. 6d. As a rule, a postman there does not reach his maxi-
 
 546 Mr. E. li. Lewin Hill. 
 
 mum of 21s. 6d. n ueek until after altout 20 years' service. The increment 
 there is ^.'iviMi iiccording to the stile of tlie ]iu<lget, and the Budget is 
 wi'.tched with much closer interest than the accounts of almost any other 
 Government department tliat I ever heard of. The post.iien, at all events, 
 are always ve'y eager to know whether it is a good Budget. In Belgium 
 and France the postmen have much greater money responsibility than our 
 postmen, because they collect commercial bills. At a little town, about 10 
 miles from Brussels, I found there were four rural postmen. These men, 
 like others of their class, collect commercial bills, more especially about the 
 middle and end of the month. 1 was at that office just after the end of the 
 montli, and I found tliat In the preceding week these four rural postmen 
 had brought in £1,200 in negotiable securities, bank notes, and such like. 
 Those who bring in large sums get a little allow mce for it. It was very 
 small — I forget how mucii — but tiie responsibility of the men in that respect 
 is proved by the fact that every rural postman there is l)ound to carry a 
 revolver, because he might be murdered. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : They were probat)ly not paid the full rate of wages paid 
 in a larger town? 
 
 A. Ko ; I think tliey were not. The authorities divide the towns into 
 three or four classes ; Brussels, Antwerp, and Ghent were, of course, 
 reckoned among the large towns ; I forgot to ask what their scale was in 
 these places. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Do you remember the scale in Paris ? 
 
 A. Not the particulars ; it was a little bett-er than in Belgium, but not 
 very much. 
 
 Q. The general rate of wages in Belgium is much lower than here? 
 
 A. Yes, no doubt ; but as some evidence was given as to the rate of 
 wages in New York, I tliought it only fair to quote the rate much nearer 
 home. One may. perhaps, liave as little bearing as the other as to what 
 would be the proper rate of wages here. 
 
 The Chairman : What ground do you put forward for believing the pre- 
 sent rate of wages here to be sufficient? 
 
 A. These grounds :■ — We are always beset with requests from persons 
 who, so far as we can judge, are really suited for the work, to be allowed 
 to enter the Service as postmen, and the same applies to .sorting clerks and 
 telegraphists. I tlunk that would be the experience of most of the men 
 in the higher grades in London as well as in the country. We know from 
 wide experience that any number of people will be delighted to come into 
 our employ, people who are fitted for the emplojanent, and who are greatly 
 disappointed when they learn that there is no chance of their admission. 
 
 Q. At the present rate of wages? 
 
 A. Yes ; certainly. 
 
 Q. And in all classes? 
 
 A. Yes ; not only with postmen, but all through. 
 
 Q. I am pointing rather to your lower paid classes, such as the rural 
 postmen and auxiliaries? 
 
 A. I might not get so many applications for auxiliaries. I do occasionally 
 get some and send them to ilr. Badcock. Another piece of evidence in 
 my mind is, that very few postmen resign except on account of ill-health. 
 I liave got a return here with reference to the E.G. District, and last year 
 tlie number of resignations of postmen there is stated to have been only 
 five, of whom two resigned to escape dismissal, two obtained better places, 
 and with regard to the fifth I am not clear why he went. Now. the num- 
 ber of postmen in the E.G. District is over 1.000- — between 1.000 and 1.100. 
 Then we know that if a postman is threatsned with dismissal he makes a 
 most earnest appeal to be allowetl to stay on, and if he is once dismissed 
 we are beset with requests from all his friends that he may be restored. 
 That would not be the case if the situations were not valuable to the men. 
 
 Mr, L. Smith : Still, nobody likes being dismissed. It is rather a slur,
 
 " A Carpenter's Son "—"A Railway Man.'* 547 
 
 A. They don't like being called on to resign. 
 
 Q. If tliey applied for other employment would they not be asked the 
 aiuse of leaving the Postal Service? 
 
 A. I suppose they would. When we had the postmen's strike in 1890, 
 which took place before the improvement in scale introduced by Mr. Raikes 
 was carried out, some himdreds of postmen were dismissetl for actually 
 striking, or for gross insubordination, and with scarcely an exception these 
 men did their utmost to be taken back ; in fact, only the men of really bad 
 character were in the long run excluded from the Service. Even men who 
 were on the unestablished class who came on at 18s. per week, and could 
 not rise above 19s. per week, were most anxious to be restored. I remem- 
 ber in one case the son of a carj>enter was being disj:>ensed Avith, and his 
 father was so eager to get him taken back that he walked some seven 
 miles to my house to plead for the boy's restoration. I pointed out that 
 the boy's prospects were very poor even if he were taken back, as he could 
 only get 19s. a week, l)ut the father said that he considered 18s. a week 
 was very good pay at the boy's age for the woj'k he had to do. 
 
 Q. Where was this? 
 
 A. In the London District. He worked at Mount Pleasant. 
 
 Mr. LlewelljTi Smith : The rates of pay for carjienters in the London 
 District are much better, and therefore I suspect that the lad could not 
 have been very bright, or the father would liave brought him up to his 
 own business. 
 
 A. The lad looked a nice young fellow enough, ;aid, of course, some 
 account was taken by his parent and himself of his chance of getting on 
 the establishment. Tiie lad was restored, but was got rid of, as he could 
 not pass the doctor. 
 
 Q. Does this case not prove too much? You would not suggest that 18s. 
 or 19s. is not below the usual London rate of wages? 
 
 A. No ; but many persons are desirous of getting into a service where 
 they get such wages. Coupled with other advantages, there is good re;ison 
 to believe we are paying more than tlie market value of labour. 
 
 Tlie Oiiairinau : l)o you think theie is any otlier particular class of em- 
 ployment which is particularly comparable witii that of the postmen? 
 
 A. I thought of railway servants, whose work in many resjiects resembles 
 tlie Av-ork of our employees. If they have not the siaine permanence as our 
 people have, they have continuous employment so long as they are effi- 
 cient, but our people have continuous employment wliether they are eflScient 
 or not practically. 
 
 Q. Railway men are not very comparable with postmen, are they? 
 
 A. No. I mention them as a class of men who have permanent em- 
 ployment. I should say that a common carrier is not unlike a postman ; 
 a good comparative case might be made from one of Carter Paterson's men, 
 who undertake to carry and deliver valuable packets and parcels, as well 
 as collect the money for them. They collect the money on delivery, and 
 receive parcels, and, I suppose, act as a kind of Carter Paterson Post Office 
 Guide to their customers. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you know the scale of pay for these men ? Do you 
 quote them as being much better off than the postmen? 
 
 A. No ; they are much worse off. I have some particulars of a case of a 
 railway man whom I know personally. His work is not only more respon- 
 sible and difficult than that of a. postman, but more responsible and difficult 
 than the work of an ordinary sorting clerk and telegraphist. He is called 
 a parcel porter, but he is in reality in charge of the parcel work at his 
 station, which has a considerable traffic — say 1,000 parcels a week. He 
 takes in and sends out for delivery all parcels. For the parcels taken in 
 lie receives the money, and has, of course, to see that the right amount is 
 paid in each case. He deals with all oases of delay or lost parcels at his 
 station. He keeps all the accounts relating to his work. He corresponds 
 direct with the public, and signs all ordinary letters to them — it being left
 
 648 Mr. E. Ji. Lkwin Hill. 
 
 to his judgment which letters lie shall get the station-maater to sign. H 
 
 hours are between 60 and 70 hours a week, including Sunday work, 1' 
 whicli no extni j)ay is given. He ha« l>een in tlie .service for 15 years, ai 
 is abouty40 years of age. His wages are 23.s. a week, and he has n<i cliaii 
 of any further rise. In his town a sorting clerk of 15 years' service gi i 
 40.S. a week, and a postman 27s. a week. He gets no pay whatever wL' 
 a\r}iy sick, gets no free medical attendance like otlier people, an<l iias i 
 claim for a i)ension, but nwiy, if he lives to 60 years of age, |>erhai>s ;; 
 as an act of grace a retiring allowance of 7s. or 8s. a week. As he g> ' 
 to be old and less useful his pay may lie cut down. He gets three da; 
 holiday a year and no overtime jmy except at Christmas. Tlji« man 
 much above the average in intelligence. I think the man's my miserab 
 low, especially as the railway company is very prosperous. Still, the in.; 
 will not tlirow up his appointment l>ecause he does not know where he c 
 earn more. He was astonished to learn of the pay our people get. an^i 
 wishes that he were fortunate enough to be in the service of the Post Office. 
 He and other railway employees have told me that t!ie pay and conditions 
 of work in the Post Office Service are known to bj exceedingly good. I 
 remember, many years ago, that the lite Sir Rowland Hill, in the course 
 of a discussion on the fjuestion of wages, pointed out to us one effect of rais- 
 ing wages aljove the market value. It was this — \yiiile thus to rai.se wages 
 was an undoubted benefit to the individuals in employment at the time, it 
 was equally an undoubted injury to their class, a,s the inevitable effect of a 
 rise of wages under such circumstances was to bring another class with 
 suj>erior qualifications uito the field, and thus to oust from employment 
 men who were able to do the work rcjuired sufficiently well, but wiio were 
 not able to do the superior work wliich those who superseded them could 
 do. The tendency is to drive these men into what Ls, I think, called the 
 submerged tenth. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Do vou consider that that effect has been brought about 
 in the Post Office? 
 
 A. I dont think it ha.'?. We have been compelled to take telegraph 
 boys, and that has handicipj^ed us. I am sure we could have got lictter 
 men than we have got if we had hud a free hand. 
 
 Q. Wliv are you handicapped? Why not get a better class of telegraph 
 boys? Tliey know their prosjiects? 
 
 A. I think that as a rule decent people who take care of their households 
 strongly object to the street life of the telegraph boy. Tliat is a great 
 obstacle to our getting a better class of boy. When a youth reaches 19 
 or 20 years of age there would not l)e the same objection on the part of 
 parents to his doing the street work of a postman. 
 
 Q. Do you think that objection is well founded — that the work is bad 
 for the boys? 
 
 A. I think it is to some extent. I have been told so. 
 
 Q. You think that boys deteriorate under it? 
 
 A. So I am told. 
 
 Q. Do you think the boys in London deteriorate? 
 
 A. Some years ago they could scarcely deteriorate, they were so bad. 
 I think it is injurious for a boy to be out on the streets at 13 or 14, to be 
 chaffed and to be larking about. 
 
 Q. More than in the case of errand boys? 
 
 A. People are not generally fond of their sons being errand boys. 
 
 Q. Still, a large number on leaving school pass a certain portion of their 
 time as errand bovs, even if thev are going into a trade? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is there any particular disadvantage attaching to being a telegraph 
 boy which would make parents who are quite willing to let their sons be 
 errand lads be reluctant to let them, become telegraph messengers? 
 
 A. They meet in large numl>?rs ; an errand boy may not have another boy 
 in the same shop with him — that is all.
 
 The Voting Power of the Staff— The Witness Hissed. 549 
 
 The Chairman : But in tlie large to^ms there is considerable control 
 exercised over the boys by the Department? 
 
 A. Yes ; but in the bigger towns I think \re get the inferior boys. The 
 smaller the town the better the chiss of boy. 
 
 Mr. L. Smitli : How is that, with other splendid prospects and advan- 
 tages which you have pictured? 
 
 A. I think the more you raise the wages the more you will raise the 
 class of telegraph boys. Reverting to tlie larger (|uestion, I ask myself 
 what signiticiince should l)e attaciied to the general demand of the postmen 
 and sorting clerks and telegraphists for higher wages? Does this demand 
 warrant the belief that the pay ss a hole is insufficient by any standard 
 you like to adopt? I think not. Postmen, in common with other Post 
 Office employees, are well aware that in asking for more pay or for otlier 
 like ad\"antages, they <lo not run any risk of losing their situations, whihi 
 there is always the chance of getting some concession. Under these condi- 
 tions they miturally put forward demand after demand, and in my opinion 
 they will continue to do so whatever concessions may be made to them 
 from time to time. It is my full belief that if one and all of the present 
 demands were complied with, fresh demands would spring up in a short 
 time, if successful or not, to be followed by others. I don't blame the men 
 for it ; any man who by asking may get something and will not lose any- 
 thing is sure to ask. When the Conmiittee on the Indoor Staff imder !Mr. 
 Raikes, in 1890, considered their proposals, which were adopted, the opinion 
 was ex{)ressed by tlie majority of the Committee that if these concessions 
 were made that would Ije the end of all agitation. I remember myself say- 
 ing. " \Vliatever else happens that will not hapi)en ; don't delude yourselves 
 with the notion that the men will cease to ask." Mr. Raikes' improvements 
 were received with the greatest gratilutle, and there were any number of 
 letters of thanks from the staff, but the ink was scarceh'^ dry when the de- 
 mands began again, and they have Wen going on ever since, and will go on. 
 The conditions of private employment are altogether different. A man 
 tnows perfectly well that on a.sking for more pay his employer niiiy not only 
 refuse to give any, but may go further and give the man notice to quit 
 on the ground that he does not choose to have discontented employees, and 
 can easily supply himself with workmen for the wages he p;iys. There is, 
 unfortunately, a growmg habit among the main body of Post Office ser- 
 vants to use their voting power at elections to get higher pay for themselves, 
 and it is well known thit in con.stituencies in which political jxarties are at 
 all evenly balanced, the Post Office servants can turn the election. My own 
 view is that the time has come for telling the postman, in common with 
 the members of the rest of the mani])ulative staff, in answer to their 
 demand for a general rise of wages, that the Department is satisfied that the 
 wages alrea<ly paid are in excess of the market value of their services ; 
 that this being so no general addition to jiay will be given, and that if the 
 staff are dissatisfied and win do better for themselves outside the Post Office, 
 they are, as they know, at perfect liberty to seek employment elsewhere. 
 (Hisses, which were sternly repressed by the Chairman.) That, at any rate, 
 is my view. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You will admit, I suppose, that there are cases where the 
 pay is too low? 
 
 A. Yes ; I admit that. I was speaking of general demands. The De- 
 partment Committee of 1890-91 recommended that the increments for i<ma 
 postmen in large provincial towns with the higher maximum of 26s. and 
 upwards should, after the first two increments, be Is. 6d. instearl of 1h. 
 In the case of the London postmen who Avere on the scale rising to SOs., tha 
 Committee recommended that they also should have the Is. 6d. increment. 
 I imagine the reason was that they began at 18s., whereas those in the 
 provinces began at 17s. I was on that Committee, and concurred in their 
 recommendations. 
 
 The Chairman : You think tlie increment is too small ?
 
 660 Mr. t. IJ. Lkwin Hill. 
 
 A. Yes. Mr. Buruett, the lahour correspondent of the Hoard of Trade, 
 gave evidence before ilie Coiririiit'.ec of 1891, and his evidence might be 
 useful to your (Jomiiiittee. He expressed tiie o|)inion tli;it with tlie inini- 
 mum which we give t'.ie rise was too shiw, hut he also exjiressed lii ■ 
 opinion tliat tlie niaxiuium we give in the hirge towns wan sulficient — th;ii 
 was hefoi'e we raised tlie niaxiinuni. He tiiougiit tlie postman ought ii 
 reach the maximum in five or six years, and that it was not necessary i" 
 pay any more after that. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The gist of his evidence was that tlie minimum was too 
 low and the maximum sufficiently high? 
 
 A. Yes ; and that the increment ought to be larger. The cost jf im- 
 proving the provincial p istnien's st'iles would, at the mean of 17 yea-s' 
 service, be £15,802 a year, and 7,199 positions would be improved. 
 
 Q. Tiiat is for the provinces only? 
 
 A. Yes. Tlie cost of improving the London postmen's scales ^s recrjin- 
 mended by the 1890-91 Committee would be £21 206 a year, and 5,083 
 positions would be improved. If the maximum limit carrying thd im- 
 proved increment were fixed in London as in the provinces at 26s. per week, 
 the cost would 1)2 £21.417 a year, and 5.298 positions would be improved. 
 
 The Clmirmaa : Tiiat leaves the rural postman entirely out of considera- 
 tion? 
 
 A. Quite so. Tlie total cost of giving an improved increment to all 
 town postmen in London and the provinces whose wages rise to as muci) 
 ;is 26s. per week would be £37.219 per annum, and 12.488 positions would 
 be improved. Of course, tlie increased cost of £37.219 would not be reached 
 for some years to come, as many of the postmen are now well on their 
 way to the maxiinuni of their scale It wouM only occur when the class 
 of postmen was entirely composed of new-comers. 
 
 Q. Is the practice of Christmas boxes usual throughout the provinces? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 ^fr. Walpuh' : You said you were in favour of a higher inci'emcnt in 
 certain cases? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you think our niiuiuiuni wage is sufficient in all cases? 
 
 A. I rather doubt it. 
 
 Q. Do j'ou think if we were to take in boys possibh' it is sufficient? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Even when, for some reason or other, a boy is kept at auxiliary work 
 for two or three years until he is 20? 
 
 A. I think it would be a gi'Ciit convenience if we had an entrance wage 
 according to a person's age. 
 
 Q. You do not think our wage is sufficient for adult labour? 
 
 A. Not in some cases. Very often a young fellow of 18 is tempted 
 to marry. 
 
 Q. I understand your position. You think the initial rate is sufficient for 
 a lad of 18, but not for a man of 22 or 23 years ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : And you think we had better keep it low in order to 
 remove from him the temptation of marrymg? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Llewelhii Smith : You would graduate it according to age? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And go on to a certain scale? 
 
 A. Yes ; suppose a telegraph bov ceases to be a telegraph messenger at 
 19 
 
 Q. What wage would he tlien be getting? 
 
 A. lis. per week. 
 
 Q. That is in London? 
 
 A. Yes ; it would not be so much in the country. 
 
 Q. He would go in as a postman at 18s.? 
 
 I
 
 Christmas Boxes. 551 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. After that would vou increase his increment? 
 
 A. Yes ; every year or every two years. 
 
 The Chairman : Ami now as to the Christmas boxes in the provinces. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is it usual to give them? 
 
 A. In the provinces about one-fourth of the men in the postmen's class 
 get no Christmas boxes at all. Tlieir duties as stampers, railway messen- 
 gers, etc.. preclude them from getting any. 
 
 Q. Tiiey would get a sj^ecial allowance? 
 
 A. Yes ; they get an allowance instead of Christmas boxes, and it is 
 such as to make the men willing to forego the Christmas boxes and take 
 indoor duties. 
 
 Q. Are there any special rules about the solicitation of Christmas boxes? 
 
 A. Tliey are tlie same as in London. 
 
 Q. You allow it on the part of letter-carriers? 
 
 A. They are allowed to ask, but not to insist. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would be possible to prohibit Cliristmas boxes? 
 
 A. I think it is possible to proiiibit solicitation, and I think it possibo 
 also that the effect of not allowing our people to ask for them would be 
 that gi-adually the practice of giving tliem would cease. 
 
 Q. You think it is quite possible bv regulation to i^ractically destroy 
 them ? 
 
 A. Yes ; if one judges froni what has occurred in the cases of other 
 classes. For instance, the police are not allowed to ask for them, and I 
 think they get very few. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But the police go round for other objects — -to sell tickets 
 for cliaritable institutions? 
 
 A. Yes ; for orphanages and things of that kind. 
 
 (.). Tliey go round and sell tickets for entertainments, and we should not 
 allow our men to do that. 
 
 A. ]5ut postmen do sell tickets in the City. I buy some every year. 
 I may also point out that the parcel postmen have no right to solicit Christ- 
 mas boxes, and they practically get none. • 
 
 The Chairman : I quite agree that they are not allowed to ask, but I do 
 not tliink it has been proved tlioy received none 
 
 A. I think one man said he got Is. 6d. a year. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : No doubt that was absolutely correct as he put it. He 
 was asked "How much do you get?" To that he made no answer. Then 
 he was asked, "How much do you get without solicitation?" and he re- 
 plied, " Is. 6d." 
 
 The Chairman : Supposing Cliristmas boxes were abolished, would you 
 recommend some allowance in lieu of them? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What do you suggest? 
 
 A. I do not think the men should have an equivalent in wages for not 
 receiving Cliristmas boxes. In the first place, wages count for pension, 
 and in the next place they count for overtime. Wages are a certainty, and 
 Chri-stmas boxes are not, as the men have told us, and I believe it. The 
 collection of Christmas boxes is disagreeable — the men are finding it in- 
 creasingly disagreeable. I think they ought to have some compensation 
 for the loss of them. Then I think it sliould be borne in mind that to 
 whatever extent the prohibition of solicitation of Christmas boxes prevents 
 them being given, the money spent by the Department to conij^ensate for 
 them is not lost to the country, but is returned in one form or another. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I think we have been told that in some towns in the north 
 of England and in Scotland the men do not collect them ? 
 
 A. In some Scotch towns the men will not ask for Christmas boxes, but 
 that, perhaps, is because they have no chance of getting them from Scotch- 
 men. (Laughter.) I am sure tliat the indisposition to ask for Christmas
 
 552 Mr. E. li. Lewin Hill. 
 
 boxes, and the feeling of humiliation in doing so, are feelings that will 
 grdw on the part of our people. It is a right feeling for the men to have. 
 We cannot deny that, althougli the Christmas box system has not been 
 officially recognised, yet it has lieen taken into account in fixing the wages. 
 While looking at the market value of wages, we used tlso to look at the 
 Christmas boxes and other perquisites. 
 
 'Xhe Chairman : How much sorting work do the provincial postmen do ? 
 
 A. A great many postmen do it. 
 
 Q. What is your view of extending the practice? 
 
 A. I see no harm in the postmen doing the sorting. 
 
 Q. Do the postmen become sorting clerks to a large extent in the 
 country? 
 
 A. Tliey do to some extent, but I do not know whether it is to a large 
 extent. Of course, a sorting clerk in the country has to do counter work, 
 and postmen cannot do that. 
 
 Q. You do not think it would be possible in the provinces to recruit the 
 sorting clerks largely from the postmen's ranks? 
 
 A. I think we should get a very inferior class of persons to what we 
 now get. In a. large country office even professional men go in for sorting 
 clerkships. But they would not go in for postmen's places. The examina- 
 tion which sorting clerks have to undergo is a very easy one, but I do not 
 think that postmen would find it possible to pass it. 
 
 Mr. Wal])ole : Yet you reserve a number of sorting clerks' places to 
 be competed for by postmen? 
 
 A. I do not see any objection to that, provided you have a proper stan- 
 dard. The man must show whether he is fit or not. 
 
 Q. Would you not get over a great many of the dutie-s with regard to 
 the allocation of duties if you were to dovetiil the postmen and sorting 
 clerks into one another? A man might combine certain sorting work with 
 his deliveries, and you could then give him a continuous duty? 
 
 A. That is possii)le ; but as for counter work, I do not think the post- 
 men could do it. 
 
 The Chairman : I was thinking more about the sorting work. 
 
 Sir E. Mowatt : Would they be competent to do the sorting work ? 
 
 A. Yes ; the postmen at Liverpool do it. They do the primary sorting. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : At Liverpool it is very much the same as at the E.C.D.O., 
 in London? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it possible to extend that system largely in the pro- 
 vinces ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think it is. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you tliink that by practice a man could become an 
 adept at both postmen and sorting clerks' work? 
 
 A. Yes, easily at both the sorting clerks' and postmen's work. 
 
 The Chairman: The postman has to deal with the actual manipulation of 
 letters to a very considerable extent, has he not? 
 
 A. He has not to have the very extensive general knowledge which the 
 sorter who has to make the despatches must hive. 
 
 Q. But the sorter has it not when he first comes into the office? 
 
 A. We find that the number of men who have got memories which 
 enable them to make despatches quickly and accurately is comparatively 
 small. 
 
 Q. Do you find tliat in the case of sorters a good many are unable to do 
 it well ? 
 
 A. Yes. I think Mr. Badcock will bear me out in that. (Mr. Badcock 
 dissented.) I find that a number of men are not sufficiently accurate to 
 sorb con'ectly and quickly. 
 
 Q. It is a wonderful thing, then, that our letters reach us so well. (Hear, 
 hear.) 
 
 A. Yes,
 
 The Question of Holidays. 553 
 
 Q. Now, I would like to go into the question of holidays? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What are your rules with regard to holidays? 
 
 A. The men have a fortnight's holiday. 
 
 Q. Does that apply to all classes? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But not to the auxiliaries? 
 
 A. No, only to the established postmen ; but there are some auxiliariea 
 who may get a holidaj^ — such as telegi-aph messengers waiting ajjpoint- 
 nients. We regard them as part «f the establishment. 
 
 Q. Have you any rule as to the time of the j^ear when a provincial post- 
 man shall tike his holidays? 
 
 A. They have to take them when they can be spared. 
 
 Q. And possibly in the smaller towns, where there are not many post- 
 men, they get what are known as good holidays? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In London, I think, the postmen get their leave within 8 months? 
 
 A. Yes ; I believe it is easier to spare them in the summer than in the 
 winter. In London, tlierefore, the holidays come within 36 weeks. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Easier in the summer than in the winter? 
 
 A. Yes ; for instance, we do not allow anybcidy to go on leave in De- 
 cember, even if he wishes it. He cannot be spared because of the pressure 
 of business. Among the telegraphists, however, the work is heavier the 
 other way. It should be mentioned that in many provincial towns — where- 
 ever we are able to do so without expense — we bring the postmen's leave 
 within 8 months, or we do so even if it causes a very little extra expense. 
 
 llie Cliairman : What is your rule with regard to Bank Holidays ? 
 
 A. The same rule as has been described for the indoor staff. If a man 
 works on Bank Holiday he has a day off" later, but if we cannot give him 
 a day off he is paid for the work. He also gets money if he only works 
 part of thii day, unless he prefers to have part of a day off another time. 
 It is the same arrangement as in London. 
 
 Q. Would it be practicable in all cases to give a man the choice of either 
 getting the pay, the holiday, or the time off'? 
 
 A. I think it would be practicable. 
 
 Q. You see no other reason against it? 
 
 A. It is like giving a man a day's leave. 
 
 Q. You already have that rule in regard to a portion of the day? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It is always i^racticable to give a man money, but is it 
 always practicable to give him a holiday? 
 
 A. No ; I do not think it would be always practicable. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: But you always give it as an alternative now? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If we can do it. 
 
 A. If a man prefers the money he gets it ; it does not save us much. 
 
 The Chairman : It was suggested to us that provincial postmen might 
 have Saturday half-holidays. 
 
 A. I do not think that would be practicable. We have suspended one 
 delivery in the afternoon in many towns, and where the local authorities 
 agree to it, there is no objectioia to doing it, but that is not the same as 
 giving a half-holiday to the men ; they might get off two or three hours, 
 but in many cases" the local authorities object altogether to a complete 
 Saturday half -holiday on the gi-ound that it interferes with business, and 
 that they cannot do without a delivery of letters. 
 
 Q. Even on Saturday afternoons? 
 
 A. Yes ; and with regaj d to the deliveries on Saturday afternoons and 
 evenings, Mr. Arnold Morley objected to the half-holiday, because he 
 thought it might increase the work on Sunday if the last delivery on Satur- 
 day were suspended.
 
 554 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you think a suspended Saturday evening delivery 
 would greatly increase the number of letters to be delivered on Sunday 
 morning? 
 
 A. Of course it would mean that the letters kept over from Saturday 
 would have to be delivered on Sunday. 
 
 Mr. Wal23ole : And in nmny cases that would l)e a serious thing ; it 
 would be a serious increase in the number of letters to be delivered? 
 
 A. -Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In many towns the local half-holidays are taken on Tliurs- 
 days and other days, are they not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And in these cases would the municipal authorities object to the sus- 
 pension of deliveries on those half-liolidays? 
 
 A. Yes, they have objected, and we have had to restore the deliveries 
 in consequence. 
 
 Q. In consequence of local complaints? 
 
 A. Yes. I wish to mention something about pensions, with reference 
 to a statement which has been made by one of tha witnesses. It was to 
 the effect that postmen rarely lived to enjoy the benefit of the pension 
 offered to them by the Department. The following figuies are cited: — 
 The total number of pensioners under the Post Office at the present time 
 is 3,873 ; of these 1892, or nearly 49 per cent. , are ex-postmen. In addition 
 to this many officers who served for a great part of their time as postmen 
 appear in the pension list as overseers, inspectors, etc. The established 
 postmen in 1885 numbered 13.500, or 26 per cent, of the total established 
 force. In 1895 they numliered some 26,000, or about 45 per cent, of the 
 established force, so that the postmen, it will be seen, as compared with 
 other Post Office servants, liave con-siderably more than their proper pro- 
 portion of pensions. That the unduly large proportion of pensions is not 
 attributable to early retirement on the part of the postmen appears from the 
 fact that the average age at which a postman takes his, pension is 52.7 years, 
 whereas the average age for the rest of the Service is 51.7. I wish next to 
 diaw a comparison of pay and attendances as between the police and post- 
 men. The pay of the whole of the police force, including insjiectors and 
 superintendents, taken at the maximum of the scales in each case at Bir- 
 mingliam, Liverpool, Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow^ Leeds, Bristol, 
 Bradford, and Newcastle-on-Tvne, works out on an average of £86 10s. a 
 year per man. The pay of the officers on the postmen's establishment at 
 these towns, calculated on the same basis, works out on an average of £93 
 a year per ma.n — ^an average of £6 10s. a year per man in favour of the 
 postmen's establishment. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Who are you including in the postmen's establishment? 
 
 A. We have taken the maximum. Policemen begin at a higher minimum, 
 but they come in as older men. We have taken in the police, the ordinary' 
 consBabie, the sergeants, the inspectors, and the superintendents ; and, on 
 the other side, we have taken into account the postmen, the assistant- 
 inspectors, the inspectors, and the special allowances. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Wliat do you allow for the postmen ? 
 
 A. We take the maximum of the scale. Of course, officers belonging to 
 the rank and file in the police are relatively more numerous than in the 
 postmen's class. The actual figures for the several towns are as follows : —
 
 Comparisons with the Police. 
 
 555 
 
 
 
 
 Average 
 
 Maximum Pay per man 
 
 
 
 
 
 per 
 
 y -ar. 
 
 
 TOWN. 
 
 
 P.iiice 
 
 Postmen's 
 
 
 
 
 Establishment. 
 
 Establishment. 
 
 Birnlingharii, 
 
 
 
 £88 6 
 
 3 
 
 £97 14 
 
 Liverpool, - 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 89 ;5 
 
 7 
 
 9(j 13 10 
 
 Manchester, 
 
 . 
 
 
 92 13 
 
 1 
 
 97 5 2 
 
 Leeds, 
 
 - 
 
 _ 
 
 8G n 
 
 5 
 
 91 17 5 
 
 Bristol, 
 
 - 
 
 
 84 15 
 
 8 
 
 yo 8 5 
 
 liraJtonl, - 
 
 - 
 
 
 84 14 
 
 
 
 89 8 7 
 
 Newcastle, - 
 
 . 
 
 . 
 
 88 9 
 
 9 
 
 85 18 4 
 
 Eiliiibuvgh, - 
 
 - 
 
 . 
 
 79 2 
 
 3 
 
 92 15 4 
 
 Glasgow, 
 
 - 
 
 - 
 
 84 14 
 
 
 
 94 19 3 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : How do you arrive at the constable's pension ? 
 
 A. I did not say pension ; it is pay. The average weekly attendance of 
 tlie postmen at these offices is 50 hours for an average maximum wage of 
 33s. 8d. a week, whereas the average weekly attendance of the police-con- 
 sfcibles is 53^ hours for an average maximum wage of 31s. a week. This 
 includes good conduct pay for both police and postmen. It does not in- 
 clude allowances for spacial duties performed by postmen. The annual 
 leave of the police is seven or eight days, wliereas the postmen have 12 
 days a year, and, in addition to this, Bank Holidays, or pay in lieu thereof, 
 and extra pay for Good Friday and Christmas Day. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Have you made any allowance for the deduction of 2^ 
 per cent, from police pay for superintendents? 
 
 A. No. The physical standard required for the police is much higha* 
 than that required for postmen. For instance, at Liverpool, tlie minimum 
 height is 5 feet 10 inches ; at Manchester, 5 feet 9 inches ; for the Royal 
 Irish Constaliulary, 5 feet 8 inches, or 5 feet 9 inches. The cliest measure- 
 ment required is \also much greater in the case of the police. For instance, 
 at Manchester, it is 35 inches, and for the Royal Irish Constabulary 36 
 inches, or about 2^ inches more for the same height and age — 20-24 years — • 
 than is the average for the postmen. Height does not affect the selection 
 of candidates for postnT'cn'-s appointments, e.g., a man of 5 feet, if other- 
 wise suitable, would be, and has been accepted. 
 
 The Chairman: Have you any rule with regard to chest measurement? 
 
 A. No ; we have no restriction. 
 
 Q. But a man has to pass a medical examination ; would not the chest 
 measurement be considered? 
 
 A. No doubt that would be one of the factors upon which the decision 
 would depend. 
 
 Dr. Wilson (intervening) : We do not take any limit of chest measure- 
 ment at present ; we simply t^ke the general physique. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : In giving the figures just now, you said that in the 
 Royal Irish Constabulary the chest measurement was 2^ inches more than 
 that required for postmen. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : We had better now deal with the question of uniforms. 
 I would like to ask you a. few questions. Do you get many complaints 
 with regard to uniforms? 
 
 A. No ; very few. 
 
 Q. What number of uniforms do you give in a year? 
 
 A. I have prepared a statement on the question of uniforms in reply to 
 the evidence given by Thomas Grimmer, iiiral postman, of Worcester. I 
 had better read that : — Specimen suits of uniform worn by provincial town 
 postmen and jural postmen for summer and winter wear are displayed in 
 the room. The colour is not like workhouse grey. In Irish Unions the
 
 556 Mr. E. B. Lkwin Hill, 
 
 material most in use is, for coats and vests a rough freize of a rather light 
 grey colour, and for trousers a light drab corduroy. Tiie District Sur- 
 veyors report that tliey have never heard anything of a feeling of dislike 
 to* " wearing &, workliouse uniform " as tliat mentioned. Tlie rural {wst- 
 nien's clothing is modelled on that of a gamekeeper, ratlier tluin tiiat of a 
 soldier, as in the case of uniform for town postmen. It is not true tliat 
 the grey clotli is inferior tf) the blue, as the patterns and prices show. 
 Koch piece of cloth is closely inspected by the experts of the Army Clothing 
 Department before being accepted, and is well shrunk Insfore being made 
 up. Provision is made in the present contract for putting more cloth into 
 the garments. 
 
 The Chairman : We are told the uniforms were too tight? 
 
 A. Yes. There is no foundation for the statement tliat the grey cloth is 
 shoddy. It is a good Cheviot clotli. Under Vie circumstances described, 
 the only dust tliat would come out would be superficial dust, which any 
 cloth garment will pick up. 
 
 The Cliairman : The complaint was also made that it would shrink. 
 
 A. I deny that. There is practic;illy no difference in quality between 
 the blue and grey cloths. The (|uestion of reducing the numl>er of mis- 
 tits is receiving very careful consideration, and a scheme is being devel- 
 cped which it is hoj^ed will do away with inuch of the present inconvenience. 
 The next summer issue of garments will be found to Ije much looser. At 
 present rural |)ostmen's uniforrii costs £2 10s. a year, and a provincial 
 town iK>stman's £2 5.s. 6d. Allowing for leggings, which presumably 
 would still lie given, the saving by giving rural men provincial town uni- 
 form would be about 2s. lid. per annum each. There has been but little 
 deky in the issue of rural postmen's uniform ; what delay there has been 
 is mostly in the way of misfits. It is a fact that the rural postmen's sum- 
 mer and winter coats are made of the same material. This was considered 
 to be hetj, having regard to their exposure to weather. It would save 
 about 3s. 8d. a postman to give a serge coat and vest. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In the summer? 
 
 A. Yes. To line the overcoats with woollen material instead of cotton 
 would add considerably to the cost. They are considered to be quite heavy 
 enough as they are. Pockets cost 9d. each — only the London postmen have 
 them at present. 
 
 The Cliairman: Are these in the greatcoat? 
 
 A. Yes. A new summer shako of much lighter material is to be issued 
 in London this summer. If successful, there is no reason why it should 
 not be extended to the provinces. " Ear laps " for men exposed to weather 
 have been considered, but they have not been thought suitable. Tliey would 
 give a very " unsmart " appearance ; and it Is doubted whether the men 
 generally would like them. We did not use the shako covers which were 
 supplied. Oil-skin capes are now supplied instead of indiarubber, and are 
 found to be much better in quality. Practically no complaints have been 
 received. The capes are designed for the protection of letters and parcels, 
 and could not be worn down to the knees. The " cape recently supplied," 
 referred to by Grimmer, was probably one of old pattern. 
 
 The Chairman: The oil-skin capes have not long been issued, have they? 
 
 A. No ; quite recently. The capes underwent very exhaustive examina- 
 tion, both at the Army Clothing Department and at the Laboratory, Somer- 
 set House, where they were pronounced to be excellent and waterproof. 
 Apparently they do not stand the hard wear put on them. The question 
 of supplying overalls has been considered, and the experiment of supplying 
 about 500 of them is about to be tried. A waterproof coat to cover the 
 knees would be expensive, and would soon wear out. The ordinary overcoat 
 is now made of grey woollen material. Worsted badges instead of metal 
 badges are not approved. They soon fray and become indistinguishable. 
 
 The Chairman : Do most of the postmen have leggings ?
 
 Prolonged Attendances. 557 
 
 A. No, I think only the rural postmen have them. That was laid down 
 in 1891. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : You do not know anything as to tl:e issue of overalls ? 
 
 A. No ; they have not been issued yet. TTiey are not vet made. 
 
 Q. Not tried yet? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Were they not tried on a limited scale two years ago, and 
 we abandoned them? 
 
 A. I do not remember. 
 
 JMr. Walpole : It is so, and now we are going to try the experiment 
 on a larger scale. 
 
 The Chairman : Tlie drift of your evidence as regards clothing is that on 
 the whole it is satisfactory, although there iiave been ca£;es of misfits. Still, 
 the number of complaints have not been very large. 
 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, what are the hours of work of provincial town postmen? 
 
 A. They are the same in the provinces as in London — 8 hours. 
 
 Q. Have you a .statement on that? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. De-xling with the attendances beyond the 8 hours' limit? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Read it, please. 
 
 Witness : Cases of prolonged attendance beyond the 8 liours' limit are, 
 it is believed, extremely rare. The instances which have been quoted in 
 the evidence given are in the main found to be at offices where the duties 
 are at present under revision, such as Stalybridge, Liverpool, and Bir- 
 mingham, or are explained by rotation with sliorter duties, as at Devonport, 
 Rawtenstall, Dingwall, Newca.stle, Liverpool, and Jensey. As soon as the 
 attendance of the postmen generally is found to exceed the normal 8 hours, 
 a scheme for the revision of the duties is prepared, and pending the con- 
 sideration of the proposals, temporary relief is afforded where desirable. 
 The duties when revised are usually fixed to occupy ratlier less than the 8 
 hours — generally about 7 liours 30 minutes, so as to allow a margin for 
 growth of work. Such revisions at tlie larger offices as a rule take place 
 every three or four years, and any time beyond the 8 hours which the 
 postmen may work when tiie revision is al)0ut to take place is probably 
 fully made up by the lighter attendance when the revision comes into force. 
 The several offices throughout the country are frequently visited by the 
 surveying staff, and any readjustment of the duties which may be necessary 
 can hardly fail to be discovered, should the Postmaster have failed to report 
 the matter. Periodical surveys are made of the duties of the whole staff 
 at each office, and any irregular attendance is adjusted. The Postmasters 
 are quite aware tliat should the men under their supervision be overworked 
 they must at once report the matter to the sm-veyor of the district. Every 
 Postmaster has to answer the following questions in his annual report to 
 the surveyor : — 
 
 "Does the average daily attendance of any of the town postmen exceed 
 8 hours? If so, state the hours of duty in each case. 
 
 " Does the dciily attendance of any of the auxiliary postmen exceed 6 
 hours? If so, sttite particulars." 
 
 In connection with this point it should be added that at several of the 
 large provincial offices, such as Bristol, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Shef- 
 field, Cardiff, Nottingham, Huddersfield, Belfast, Portsmouth, Leicester, 
 and Preston, many of the postmen, especially those residing at some dis- 
 tance from the office, are allowed the free use of the tramways or omni- 
 buses, for which the Department pays a yearly sum to the company, and 
 thereby obtain considerable relief in making their collections and deliveries. 
 That such relief is of great benefit to them is proved by the fact that the 
 granting of it has led to an improvement in the general health of the men 
 in several instances. In some cases on the first delivery (the heaviest of
 
 558 Mr. E. B. Lrwin Hiij.. 
 
 the day) the postmen are conveyed, by means of covered brakes, to the 
 starting-points on tlieii- walks. Tlie accompanying extract (1, see footnote) 
 from the report of the surveyor at Glasgow shows how largely this reliuf 
 is afforded to the postmen there, a typical instance of \shat the DeparLmcat 
 is doing in such cases for the l^eneHt of the postmen: — 
 
 EXTRACT FROM REPORT OF SURVEYOR OF GLASGOW, 
 
 20th Fel)ruary, 1896. 
 
 " In Glasgow all the postmen except those whose delivery commences 
 within a short walk from the head office, are conveyed by railway, tramway 
 car, omnibus, or brake to, or near tt), the point at wiiicli they commence 
 delivering. There is no fixed limit, but there are not many men who have 
 to walk thereto much above half-a-mile. 
 
 " It may j)erhaps be well to mention that 135 railway season tickets are 
 held by postmen here, and these men enjoy the privilege of returning to 
 the office, or reaching their homes where suitable by train. Wherever a 
 train service can, with advantage, be suljstituled for any other conveyance, 
 I Imve obtained the Secretiiry's sanction for the change, one of the special 
 reasons for so doing being the benefit of return this affords to the holder. 
 (2, see footnote.) Sanction for 78 of these season tickets has been obtained 
 by mjself since taking up duty liere." 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do tiie men use the tram cars and omnibuses in going 
 to and from work, and also in delivering their letters? 
 
 A. Yes. (3, see footnote). 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Can j'ou tell us whether the season tickets are paid for 
 by the office? 
 
 A. Yes ; they are paid for by the office. They are given in cases in 
 which postmen have to carry lieavy bags, and therefore they have season 
 tickets, which they can use at other times. Moreover, within the last few 
 years the postmen at several towns have lieen given a partial holiday on one 
 day a week by the suspension of some of the services with the consent of the 
 local authorities. Here are ^ome examples:- — Accrington 2, Bacup 1, 
 Bingley 3, Blackburn 2, Bolton 1, Bradford 1, Brighouse 1, Bury 1, Colne 
 5, Uarwen 2, Dewsbury 1, Halifax 1, Huddersfield 1, Keighley 3, Nelson 
 5, Preston 1, and Rochdale 1. In cerbiin towns also wliere special local 
 holidays, generally in tlie summer months, are observed, arrangements have 
 been made with the consent of the locjil authorities for the suspension of 
 several of the collections and deliveries, so as to admit of postmen sharing 
 in the holiday. Instances of this are furnished in the margin. Taking all 
 things into consideration, the postman's lot does not appear to be an un- 
 happy one. He is far better off in these respects than the policeman, who, 
 as a rule, has half the postnmn's annual leave, longer attendance, a full 
 duty on at least every other Sunday, without extra pay, no leave or extra 
 pay for Bank Holidays, Christmas Day, or Good Friday, and no partial 
 holidays. 
 
 1.— The Brakes in use at Glasgow are not "covered in." The men who find it 
 necessary to ride in them are fully exposed to the weather, of whatever kind. 
 
 2. — Those Postmen who are supplied with Season Tickets by rail (to be used by a 
 Postman only) to the outlying districts find them useful in returning to their 
 homes should they be domiciled near to the line of Railway for which the 
 Ticket is available, otherwise they have no advantage. 
 
 3 — This answer is entirely wron?, so far as Glasgow is concerned. None of the 
 Postmen in the Glasgow Ofiice have the free use of the Tramway System in 
 going to and from their work. A number of the Postmen on walking collec- 
 tions are the only men who are supplied with a limited number of checks to 
 travel outwards for, or inwards with, their collection. 
 
 [A little too much has been made of this Season Ticket business, the advantages 
 to the holder being more imaginary than real.]
 
 Dr. WUson Recalled. 559 
 
 Dr. Wilson was then re-called and examined as follows : — 
 
 Tlie Chairman : I want to ask you one question upon a point with regard 
 ;o which I (questioned ilr. Badcock. A statement was made by Mr. Symes 
 ;hat the postmen go about in suffering because they know that the official 
 nedical officer, unless they complain of infectious illness, will not give them 
 teave, and they preferred thus to go about rather than lay themselves open 
 to a suspicion of malingering? 
 
 A. There is no truth in that at all. The average absence for 1895 is 
 higher than it was for 1894, and it is worthy of note that more sick leave 
 was granted after the introduction of the system of allotting full pay. 
 
 Q. As a rule you think the medical officers of the P.O. are considerate 
 to the men? 
 
 A. I am sure of it. 
 
 Q. In tlie way of granting leave? 
 
 A. I am quite sure of it. 
 
 Q. Are the instructions of the Department that they should be so? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Of course you have to prevent any abuse of the privilege given? 
 
 A. Quite so. 
 
 Mr. Lewin Hill again re-called and further examined: — 
 
 The Chairman : Mr. Churchfield toUl us the other day that a postman 
 at Winiisor, who had given evidence before this Conmiittee, had been 
 watehed or shadowed, or something of that kind, in consequence. I think 
 that was tlie purport of his complaint? Can you give us any information? 
 
 A. Yes. Inquiry has been made by the surveyor ; he has not been able 
 to visit the office per.sonally, but he sent one of the surveyor's clerks down 
 to visit the Posb Office, and he was informed that no difficulty whatever 
 had been made on account of the evidence tendered before the Committee. 
 The surveyor writes: — "I am of opinion that this assurance may be ac- 
 cepted. It seems probable that the statement made to the Committee 
 is founded on a case which is now under consideration. It is a case in 
 which I think the inspector was not discreet, but I see no reason to doubt 
 at present that his sole object was to secure a proper performance of the 
 duty under his immediate control. The inquiry is not yet completed ; the 
 case seems to be one which ciia be best settled by personal mquiry, and I 
 have not yet had an opportunity of making it ; but, so far as the case has 
 gone, it woidd ap{)ear that while there was a want of judgment loctiUy in 
 dealing with it, and while there was unwise interference on the part of the 
 inspector, at the same time the postman Riley acted in a manner calculated 
 to interfei'e with the discipline of the office. I projxjse to vi.sit Windsor 
 next week, and I have no doubt I shall b^ able to prevent anything of the 
 kind occurring again." 
 
 Q. That takes us no further. I think it would have been better to wait 
 until the inquiry could have been complsted. 
 
 A. It was reported that Riley was insolent. 
 
 The Clrainnan : You had better bring the matter forward when the case 
 has been settled. 
 
 The Committee then adjourned until Thursday. 
 
 Lord Tweedmouth's Committee held its last sitting before Easter tO-day 
 (Thursday, 20th March), and was engaged for four-and-a-half hours in com- 
 pletinji the examination of Mr. Lewin Hill, who was called by the Department 
 to reply to the case put forward on behalf of the provincial postmen. 
 
 The Chairman : There are some points on which you wish to supplement 
 your evidence on the subject of the wages of postmen? 
 
 A. There is one general consideration bearing upon the question of 
 raising salaries and wages to which I omitted to call attention on Monday. 
 It is this : — The expenditure of the Post Office divides itself into two 
 classes, i.e., expenditure which is remunerative and expenditure which is
 
 5G0 Mr. E. li. Lkwin' ilii j.. 
 
 not. Tlie tirsb class comprises cx|)enilitiire for such iiiiijrijvciiients of ser- 
 vice as lead to a growtli of protitahle Ijiisiuess suHicieiit Uj cover the expen- 
 diture incurred, and also, 1 think, such increase of pay up to the full market 
 value of luhour ; because expinditiire on tiiis head conduces to the efficient, 
 and, tiierefure, economical perform ince of the Sers'ice. In the second class 
 is included expenditure which is not remuner itive, and in this category 
 I include increase of pay beyond the full market value of libour. Now, 
 all additional unremunerative expenditure has to be paid for by taxation, 
 and to wiiatever extent the wages-earning class contribute to the general 
 taxation any increased unrennmerative expenditure by luiie Post Office 
 comes out of the pockets of a large class of ])ersons, ver\' many meml)ers of 
 which are less well off than our people. With regard Uj the question of 
 the wages of postmen, I stated on ^Iondlly that I thought the present wages 
 of town |K)stmen are, as a rule, (piite sufficient. Fully adhering to this 
 opinion, I still think that our ju-esent system of paying the postmen on ris- 
 ing scale of wages is, as regards the postmen in the larger towns, suscep- 
 tible of improvement. In the c-use of the smaller to\^■ns the maximum vi 
 the scale is reached in 6 or 7 years, but in the ca.se of the larger towns the 
 niaxinuim is not reached until a muc!i longer period. Thus, in the c;ise of 
 an office with the .scde of 16s., Is., 22s., the po.stman reaches his maximum 
 after 6 years of .service. But in the case of an office — Liverpool and Man- 
 chester, for instiince — with a saile of 17s., Is., 30s. a week, the postman does 
 not reach his maxinmm until after 13 years' service. During the first seven 
 years of his service he is paid only one shilling a week more than the post- 
 man at a town like Axmiiister or (Jongleton, where the scale of 16s., Is., 
 22s. applies, although the cost of living and the value of labour are in all 
 probability decidedly greater. I think that it may fairly be assumed that 
 a postman after 6 or 7 years' service has, as a rule, reached his full vilue, 
 and I tiiink it would be batter by the time he has reached his full value 
 to give his maximum pay, as we do, indeed, in the case of the po.stmen in 
 the smaller towns. Assiuning that a town like Liverpool the postman dur- 
 ing, say the first 20 years of his service, receives in the aggregate suffi- 
 cient payment for his first 20 years' work, I would suggest that his scale 
 of wages should be arranged as .sliown in the t<il)ular statement E. The 
 seven tables — A to G — show the effect of the application of the suggested 
 plan to each of the long scales whether in London or the provinces. It 
 will be observed that the effect of such a re-arrangement of t!ie scale would 
 be to give the postman in the earlier year.s of his service much more than he 
 receives at present, but, on the other hand, to give liim less tlian he receives 
 at present in the later years of his service. The following tables were then 
 handed in by the witness : — -
 
 Proposed Scale of WagesYor London Postmen. 
 
 561 
 
 LoNDOM Town Postmen. 
 
 Present Scale, - 
 Proposed Scale, 
 
 YJiAE. 
 
 18/ by 1/ to 34-/ a week. 
 18/ by 2/ to 30/ a week. 
 
 Weekly Pay. 
 
 Present. PropoB'd 
 
 1 
 
 18/ 
 
 2 
 
 19/ 
 
 3 
 
 20/ 
 
 4 
 
 21/ 
 
 5 
 
 22/ 
 
 6 
 
 23/ 
 
 7 
 
 24/ 
 
 8 
 
 25/ 
 
 9 
 
 26/ 
 
 10 
 
 27/ 
 
 U 
 
 28/ 
 
 12 
 
 29/ 
 
 13 
 
 30/ 
 
 U 
 
 31/ 
 
 15 
 
 32/ 
 
 l(i 
 
 33/ 
 
 17 
 
 34/ 
 
 18 
 
 HI 
 
 It) 
 
 34/ 
 
 2) 
 
 34/ 
 
 Total 
 
 544/ 
 
 18/ 
 20/ 
 
 22/ 
 24/ 
 2G/ 
 28/ 
 30/ 
 30' 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 30/ 
 
 558/ 
 
 ANKUAL Pay. 
 
 Pre.sont. 
 
 46 19 
 
 49 11 2 
 
 52 3 4 
 
 54 15 6 
 
 57 7 8 
 
 59 19 10 
 
 62 12 
 
 65 4 2 
 
 67 10 4 
 
 70 8 
 
 73 8 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 78 5 
 
 80 17 2 
 
 83 9 4 
 
 80 1 (5 
 
 88 13 8 
 
 88 13 8 
 
 88 13 8 
 
 88 13 8 
 
 1418 18 8 
 
 Kkmauks 
 
 Proposed. 
 
 £ s. D. 
 46 19 
 
 52 3 4 
 
 57 7 8 
 
 02 12 
 
 07 16 4 
 73 
 78 5 
 
 78 5 
 78 5 
 
 78 5 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 78 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 1455 9 4 
 
 Period of Bene- 
 fit, 11 years 
 y from 1/ to 6/, 
 then back to 
 1/ a week. 
 
 Neither gain nor 
 [loss. 
 
 Peri, d of los.s, 7 
 years from 1/ 
 to 4/ a week. 
 
 Total gain in 20 years, £36 lOs. 8d or £1 10s. 6d a year (8d. a week). 
 Unilir the present scale a Postman reaches his maximum of 34/ 
 
 a week after I(> years' service. 
 
 Ilnde" the proposed scale!^a Postman reaches his maximmn of 30/ 
 
 a week after years' service.
 
 &6^ 
 
 Mr. E. Bt Lewin Hill. 
 
 London Postmen — Zone I. 
 Present Scale, - - 18/, by 1/ to 32/ a week. 
 Proposed Scale, - - 18/, 19/, by 2/ to 29/ a week. 
 
 
 "Weekly. 
 
 Yeahly. 
 
 
 Year. 
 
 Present. 
 
 Propos'd 
 
 Present 
 
 Proposed. 
 
 Bemarks. 
 
 
 
 
 £ 
 
 8. 
 
 D. 
 
 £ S B. 
 
 
 1 
 
 18/ 
 
 18/ 
 
 46 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 46 19 
 
 
 2 
 
 19/ 
 
 19/ 
 
 49 
 
 11 
 
 2 
 
 49 11 2 
 
 
 3 
 
 20/ 
 
 21/ 
 
 52 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 54 15 6 
 
 ' 
 
 4 
 
 21/ 
 
 23/ 
 
 54 
 
 15 
 
 6 
 
 59 19 10 
 
 
 o 
 
 22/ 
 
 25/ 
 
 57 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 65 4 2 
 
 Period of gain ; 
 
 () 
 
 23/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 59 
 
 19 
 
 10 
 
 70 8 6 
 
 from 1/ to 5/, 
 
 7 
 
 24/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 62 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 ^ and back to 1/ a 
 
 8 
 
 25/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 65 
 
 4 
 
 2 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 / wet k benefit. 
 1 9 years. 
 
 9 
 
 2(5/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 67 
 
 16 
 
 4 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 10 
 
 27/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 No gain. No loss. 
 
 11 
 
 28/ 
 
 29/ • 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 12 
 
 •z9/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 75 
 
 12 
 
 10 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 13 
 
 30 
 
 29/ 
 
 78 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 
 H 
 
 31/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 80 
 
 17 
 
 2 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 1 
 
 15 
 
 32/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 83 
 
 9 
 
 4 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 Period of loss — 
 
 IG 
 
 32/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 83 
 
 9 
 
 4 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 [ from 1/ to 3/ 
 
 17 
 
 32/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 83 
 
 9 
 
 4 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 / a wtek, 
 
 18 
 
 32/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 83 
 
 9 
 
 4 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 8 years. 
 
 19 
 
 32/ 
 
 29/ 
 
 83 
 
 9 
 
 4 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 
 20 
 
 32/, 
 
 29/ 
 
 83 
 
 9 
 
 4 
 
 75 12 10 
 
 / 
 
 Total 
 
 535/ 
 
 539/ 
 
 1395 
 
 9 
 
 2 
 
 1405 17 10 
 
 
 Total gain in 20 years, £10 8-. 8d. , or 10 5 a year, about 3d. a week. 
 Under the present scale a Postmen reaches his maximum of 32/- a 
 
 week after 14 years' service. 
 
 Under the proposed scale a Postmen reaches his maximum of 29/- a 
 
 week after 6 years' service.
 
 Proposed Scale of Wages for London Postmen. 
 
 563 
 
 London Postmen — Zone II. 
 
 Present Si.'ale, 
 Proposed Scale 
 
 18/ by 1/ to 30/ a week. 
 18/, 19/ by 2/ to 28/ a week. 
 
 
 Weekly. 
 
 
 Ykarly. 
 
 
 
 Yeak. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Rr MARKS. 
 
 
 Present. 
 
 Proposed 
 
 Present. 
 
 Proposed. 
 
 
 
 
 
 Sj s. 
 
 D. 
 
 C s. 
 
 D. 
 
 
 1 
 
 18/ 
 
 18/ 
 
 41) 19 
 
 
 
 40 19 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 10/ 
 
 19/ 
 
 49 11 
 
 2 
 
 49 11 
 
 2 
 
 
 8 
 
 20/ 
 
 27 
 
 52 3 
 
 4 
 
 54 16 
 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 ■m 
 
 23/ 
 
 54 15 
 
 
 
 59 19 
 
 10 
 
 1 Period of gain 8 
 
 5 
 
 2-V 
 
 25/ 
 
 57 7 
 
 s 
 
 05 4 
 
 2 
 
 1 years from 1/ to 
 
 (5 
 
 2 / 
 
 27/ 
 
 59 19 
 
 10 
 
 70 8 
 
 
 
 * 4/, and back to 
 
 7 
 
 24/ 
 
 2V 
 
 ()2 12 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 !/ a week. 
 
 8 
 
 25/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 i;5 4 
 
 2 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 
 y 
 
 20/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 r.7 10 
 
 4 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 
 10 
 
 27/ 
 
 •28/ 
 
 70 8 
 
 (; 
 
 73 U 
 
 8 
 
 
 11 
 
 28/ 
 
 2V 
 
 7? 
 
 8 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 Mo gain. No loss. 
 
 12 
 
 29/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 75 12 
 
 10 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 
 13 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 
 U 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 
 15 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 7-. 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 Period of loss 9 
 
 1(5 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 * years, 1/ and 2/ 
 
 17 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 a week. 
 
 18 
 
 30. 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 
 19 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 
 20 
 
 30/ 
 
 522/ 
 
 28/ 
 525/ 
 
 78 5 
 
 
 
 IS 
 
 8 
 
 
 Total 
 
 IS'ol U 
 
 
 
 13G'J 7 
 
 
 
 
 Total gain in 20 years, £7 10s. 6d. , or 7s. lOd.a year, nearly 2d 
 
 a week. 
 Under the present scale a Postman reaches his maximum of 30/ a 
 
 week after 12 years' service. 
 Under tlie proposed scale a Postman readies his maximum of 28/a 
 
 week after years' service.
 
 564 
 
 Mr. E. B. Lewim Hill. 
 
 London Postmln — Zone III. 
 Present Scale, - - 18/ by 1/ to 20/ a week. 
 Proposed Scale, - 18/ by 1/ to 22/, then 2/ to 26/ a week. 
 
 
 Wkekly. 
 
 
 yKAKLY. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 KliMAHKB. 
 
 Ykak. 
 
 Present. 
 
 Propos'd 
 
 Present. 
 
 Proposed. 
 
 
 ~ 
 
 
 
 £ s. 
 
 D. 
 
 £ S. 
 
 D. 
 
 
 1 
 
 18/ 
 
 18/ 
 
 46 19 
 
 
 
 46 19 
 
 
 
 
 2 
 
 19/ 
 
 19/ 
 
 49 11 
 
 2 
 
 49 11 
 
 2 
 
 
 8 
 
 20/ 
 
 20/ 
 
 52 3 
 
 4 
 
 52 3 
 
 4 
 
 
 4 
 
 21/ 
 
 21/ 
 
 54 15 
 
 6 
 
 54 15 
 
 6 
 
 
 6 
 
 22/ 
 
 22/ 
 
 57 7 
 
 8 
 
 57 7 
 
 8 
 
 
 6 
 
 23/ 
 
 24/ 
 
 59 19 
 
 10 
 
 02 12 
 
 
 
 1 Period of gain, 
 
 7 
 
 24/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 62 12 
 
 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 3 years 1/, 2/- 
 
 8 
 
 25/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 65 4 
 
 2 
 
 67 10 
 
 4 
 
 ) and 1/ a week 
 
 9 
 
 20/ 
 
 20/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 
 10 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 10 
 
 4 
 
 
 11 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 
 12 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 
 13 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 
 14 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 I^Same as present. 
 
 15 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 12 years. 
 
 16 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 
 17 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 10 
 
 4 
 
 
 18 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 10 
 
 4 
 
 
 19 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 07 16 
 
 4 
 
 
 20 
 
 26/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 ^ 
 
 Total 
 
 484/ 
 
 488/ 
 
 1262 8 
 
 8 
 
 1272 17 
 
 4 
 
 
 Total gain in 20 years, £10 8s. 8d. or 10s. 5d. a year, about 
 
 3d. a week. 
 
 Under the present scale a Postman reaches his maximum of 26/ 
 
 a week after 8 years' service. 
 Under the proposed scale a Postman reaches his maximum of 26/ 
 a week after 6 years' service.
 
 Proposed Scale of Wages for Provincial Postmen. 565 
 
 PROVINCIAL Town I'ostmen. 
 Present Sca'e, - - - 17/ by 1/ to 30/ a -week. 
 Proposed Scale, - - 17/ and 18/ by 2/ to 28/ a week. 
 
 
 Weekly. 
 
 
 
 Yearly. 
 
 
 
 
 Year. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Present. 
 
 Propos'd 
 
 Present. 
 
 Proposed. 
 
 
 
 
 jt 
 
 s. 
 
 p. 
 
 £ 
 
 s. 
 
 D. 
 
 
 1 
 
 17 
 
 17/ 
 
 44 
 
 6 
 
 10 
 
 44 
 
 6 
 
 10 
 
 
 2 
 
 18/ 
 
 18/ 
 
 46 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 46 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 19/ 
 
 20/ 
 
 49 
 
 11 
 
 2 
 
 52 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 1 
 
 4 
 
 20 
 
 22/ 
 
 52 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 57 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 
 5 
 
 21/ 
 
 24 
 
 54 
 
 15 
 
 6 
 
 62 
 
 12 
 
 
 
 Period of benefit, 
 
 6 
 
 22/ 
 
 26/ 
 
 57 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 67 
 
 16 
 
 4 
 
 9 years. From 
 
 ) 1/ to 5/, then 
 
 back to 1/ a 
 
 7 
 
 23/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 59 
 
 19 
 
 10 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 8 
 
 - 24/ 
 
 -.8/ 
 
 62 
 
 ! 2 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 
 25/ 
 
 28; 
 
 65 
 
 4 
 
 2 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 week benefit. 
 
 10 
 
 2(J/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 67 
 
 1(! 
 
 4 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 11 
 
 27/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 12 
 
 28/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 No gain. No loss. 
 
 13 
 
 29/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 lo 
 
 12 
 
 10 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 14 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 
 
 5 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 15 
 
 30/ 
 
 28 
 
 78 
 
 .> 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 Period of dimin- 
 
 16 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 
 
 o 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 ution, 8 years. 
 
 17 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 
 
 i) 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 ) 1/ a week Ist 
 
 18 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 
 
 U 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 year ; 2, a week 
 
 19 
 
 30/ 
 
 •^8/ 
 
 78 
 
 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 7 years. 
 
 20 
 
 30/ 
 
 28/ 
 
 78 
 
 u 
 
 
 
 73 
 
 
 
 8 
 
 
 Total 
 
 509/ 
 
 519/ 
 
 1327 
 
 12 
 
 10 
 
 1353 
 
 14 
 
 6 
 
 
 Total gain in 20 years— £2G Is. 8d. or £1 6s. Id. a year, or 6d. a week. 
 
 Under the present scale a Postman reaches his maximum of 30/ after 
 
 13 years' service. 
 
 Under the proposed scale a Postman reaches his maximum of 28/- 
 after 6 years' service.
 
 566 
 
 Mr. E. B. Lewis Hill. 
 
 rRCviKCiAL Town Postmkn. 
 Present Scale, - 17/ by 1/ to 26! a week. 
 Proposed Scale, 17/ by 1/ to ID/, then by 2/ to 27/ a week. 
 
 
 WliEKLV. 
 
 
 Ykaulv. 
 
 
 
 
 Yeak 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 PieHcnt. 
 
 Propo«'t) 
 
 Preaent. 
 
 Proposed 
 
 
 
 
 
 £ H 
 
 D. 
 
 £ 
 
 8. 
 
 D 
 
 
 1 
 
 17/ 
 
 17/ 
 
 44 C 
 
 10 
 
 14 
 
 (5 
 
 iO 
 
 
 2 
 
 18/ 
 
 18/ 
 
 40 19 
 
 
 
 4G 
 
 19 
 
 
 
 
 3 
 
 19/ 
 
 19/ 
 
 49 11 
 
 2 
 
 49 
 
 11 
 
 2 
 
 
 4 
 
 21/ 
 
 20/ 
 
 52 3 
 
 4 
 
 54 
 
 15 
 
 G 
 
 
 
 
 22/ 
 
 21/ 
 
 54 15 
 
 6 
 
 59 
 
 9 
 
 10 
 
 Peri'd of Bene- 
 
 Ci 
 
 23/ 
 
 23/ 
 
 57 7 
 
 8 
 
 G5 
 
 4 
 
 11 
 
 fit, 7 years 
 
 1 
 
 24/ 
 
 25/ 
 
 59 19 
 
 10 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 \ from 1/ to 4/ 
 
 8 
 
 25/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 G2 
 
 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 
 
 ' aid back to 1/ 
 
 9 
 
 26/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 Gi 4 
 
 2 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 a week. 
 
 10 
 
 27/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 G7 IG 
 
 4 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 G 
 
 ' . ■ 
 
 11 
 
 28/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 No gam ; no loss. 
 
 12 
 
 28/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 G 
 
 
 13 
 
 28/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 \ 
 
 14 
 
 28/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 G 
 
 
 15 
 
 28/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 G 
 
 
 IG 
 17 
 
 18 
 
 2./ 
 28/ 
 28/ 
 
 27/ 
 27/ 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 73 
 73 
 
 8 
 8 
 8 
 
 70 
 70 
 70 
 
 8 
 8 
 8 
 
 G 
 G 
 6 
 
 V Period of less, 9 
 years 1/ a week. 
 
 19 
 
 28/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 70 
 
 7 
 
 G 
 
 
 20 
 
 27/ 
 
 27/ 
 
 73 
 
 8 
 
 70 
 
 8 
 
 6 
 
 
 Total 
 
 494/ 
 
 501/ 
 
 12S8 10 
 
 4 
 
 1306 
 
 15 
 
 G 
 
 
 Total gain in 20 years, £18 5s. 2d., or 18s. 3d. a year — a little 
 
 over 4d. a week. 
 
 Under the present scale a Postman reaches his maximum of 28/ 
 
 a week after 11 years' service. 
 
 Under the proposed scale a Postman roaches Ms maximum of 27/ 
 
 a week af'er 6 years' serviee
 
 Proposed Scale of Wages. 
 
 56^ 
 
 Provincial Town Postmen. 
 
 Present Scale, - - - 17/ by 1/ to 26/ a week. 
 
 Propr.sed Scale, 17/ by 1/ to 20/, then by 2/ to 2(3/ a week. 
 
 Year, 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 G 
 
 7 
 
 8 
 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 2 J 
 
 Total 
 
 Wkkkly. 
 
 Present. Proposed 
 
 Yeakly. 
 
 17/ 
 18/ 
 19/ 
 20/ 
 21/ 
 22/ 
 23/ 
 24/ 
 25/ 
 20/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 J6/ 
 
 475/ 
 
 17/ 
 18/ 
 19/ 
 20/ 
 22/ 
 24/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 26/ 
 JO/ 
 
 484/ 
 
 Present. 
 
 £, 3. 
 
 44 6 
 
 46 19 
 
 49 11 
 
 Proposed. 
 
 52 3 
 
 4 
 
 54 15 
 
 6 
 
 57 7 
 
 8 
 
 59 19 
 
 10 
 
 62 12 
 
 
 
 65 4 
 
 2 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 67 16 
 
 4 
 
 L238 19 
 
 2 
 
 £ 8. 
 
 41 6 
 46 19 
 40 11 
 52 3 
 57 7 
 62 12 
 67 16 
 67 16 
 67 16 
 67 16 
 
 67 16 
 67 16 
 67 16 
 67 16 
 07 16 
 67 16 
 67 16 
 e7 16 
 
 10 
 
 2 
 4 
 8 
 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 4 
 
 1262 S 8 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 ^ Period of gain 5 
 j years, from 1/ to 
 ^3/, and back to 
 I 1/ a week 
 J benefit. 
 1 , 
 
 I Fam-5 as at 
 \ present. 
 I 11 jears. 
 
 Total gain in 20 years, £23 9s. 6d. , or £1 33. 6d. a year, nearly 
 5|d. a week 
 
 Under the present scale a Postman reaches bis maximum of 20/ a 
 week after 9 years' service. 
 
 Under the proposed scale a Postman reaches his maxinmm of 2G/ 
 a week after 6 years' service. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Practically your proposal is to reduce the maximum and 
 to increase the annual increment? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You would double the annual increment and decrease the maximum? 
 
 A. Yes. It is on the assumption that the present pay is regarded' as 
 sufficient as a whole. It seems to me that if the present pay is not re- 
 garded as sufficient, the better way of increasing it is to increase it in the 
 earlier stages of a man's service, and not in tlie later. 
 
 Q. Have you formed any estimate as to what the cost of this would be? 
 
 A. Yes ; that appears in the tables annexed to my statement and already 
 put in. I have worked out the scheme on the basis of giving the postmen 
 during the first 20 years of service about as much as lie now gets. I will 
 take here the case of a London town postman. These men are on the scale 
 of 18s., rising by Is. to 34s., and the scale which I suggest is 18s.. rising
 
 i>68 Mr. E. B. Lewin HiLl. 
 
 by 2s. to 50s. You will find that on such a scale as I suggest that during 
 his first 20 years of service lie would get on the aggregate about 8d. per 
 week more. 
 
 Q. But after 20 years' service he would be a con-sideraljle loser, would he 
 not? 
 
 A. Yes, he would lose. I ought to have obtained the average length of 
 the service of postmen, but I have not done so. If, however, such a sys- 
 tem of pajnnent as I suggest is adopted, my view is that it should be 
 optional to each man in the Service either to stay on the present scale or 
 to adopt the new scale. 
 
 Q. Up to about 13 yeai-s' service he would be a gainer? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But after that he would be an increasing loser every year? 
 
 A. Yes, after 14 years' service. At present he is getting £80 17s. 2d. 
 in the 14th year. 
 
 Q. And vou are proposing that he should have £78 5s. ? 
 
 A. Yes. ' 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Do I understand tliat the.se figures are merely given to 
 illustrate your contention, and that they do not represent a definite pro- 
 posal ? 
 
 A. No. It seems to me that at present our postmen in the large towns 
 get too little in the earlier stages of their work, and although a man in 
 14 years gets X.Os. a week, that does not provide him with sufficient money 
 for lodging and food when he most wants it. 
 
 Q. You wish to distribute the aggregate in a different way, whatever 
 that aggregait« may be? 
 
 A. Yes ; wlatever it may be fixed at. I have gone on the assumption 
 that the present pay is sufficient, but if it is not then my idea would be to 
 increase it in the earlier stages, and not in the later. 
 
 The Chairman : You put it in your evidence on the ground that a man 
 reaches his full value at an early stage ; but I understand that in your 
 later remarks you are taking a different ground, i.e., the considerable ex- 
 pense of lodgings, etc. Now, I wish to ask, which is the ground you rely 
 on? 
 
 A. I put it mainly on the ground that the man reaches his full value at 
 an early stage. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : The two principles, if woiked out, might give very 
 different results. Which do you think is the soimd one? 
 
 A. I think the sound one is that of reaching full value at an early stage. 
 
 Q. But in a service in which a man continues almost necessarily for a 
 long time, is it desirable always to ]^)ay him in each year the market value 
 of his labour through that year? Would you rather not have regard to the 
 growth of his expenditure? 
 
 A. In the case of postmen — ^and this applies also to telegraphists and 
 sorting clerks — thev constantly compare their pay with the scales of pay 
 given outside the Department. "It is true," they say, "that outside the 
 Department a man gets what he is worth." That is so, and if he is an 
 apprentice he has to serve in that capacity so many years, but when his 
 apprenticeship comes to an end, and he is deemed fit for his work, he at 
 once gets full pay for it. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That carries with it the consequence, does it not, that 
 you cannot recognise long service? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. And if you pay a man what he is worth when he becomes worth it, 
 he cannot afterwards plead that he has been a long time in the Service, 
 and he should on that account have an increase of wages. 
 
 A. Certainly not. In the case of the postmen we do recognise long 
 service up to 15 years by giving, at intervals of 5 years, good conduct 
 stripes, each of which carries with it an allowance of Is. a week. 
 
 The Chairman: Do your tables and calculations include the stripes?
 
 The Market Value of Lal)Our. 560 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. L. Smitli : I want to ask you one question bearing on the general 
 statement. At the beginning of your evidence you used the term "market 
 value " ratJier freely. Do you me^n by that the price it is necessary to pay 
 in order to attract and keep in the Sei-vice people of sufficient efficiency 
 to carry it on? 
 
 Q. Ajid I gather you consider that if any class of people are paid above 
 n.arket value that immediately has the effect of attracting people of superior 
 efficiency; that is to say, people who are too good for the place? 
 
 A. Yes ; it would if you go into tlie open market. 
 
 Q. I understand that that effect is not, as a matter of fact, produced 
 among postmen for reasons which you gave us last time? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And one reason is that during the earlier stages of what I may call 
 the apprenticeship — that is, the telegraph messengers' work — parents do 
 rot consider it suiti^ble for their boys that they should be sent into the 
 streets, and that tliat in itself acts as a bar to getting a flow into the 
 Service of wh;it I might call tlie hig':er classes? 
 
 A Yes ; but at the same time if you raise the pay of the postmen 
 sufficiently high, tlie objection to the street service would not be so strongly 
 felt by the parents. Tliey would possibly put up with it in view of the 
 future prospects of the boy. 
 
 Q. Supposing you went into the open market for postmen, according to 
 your view, should we be able to get the same efficiency at a lower cost than 
 we now pay for our telegraph messengers? 
 
 A. I think you would get telegrapli messengers perfectly well by doing 
 as Messrs. Smith and Sons, the news agents, do; they emploj^ many hun- 
 dreds of boys (I do not know how rnnny), they take them on for 2 or 3 
 years, and pay such wages as enables them to get a good class of boy, 
 and at the end of the 2 or 3 years the boys have to go. 
 
 Q. But that involves the necessity of paying the market rate for tele- 
 graph messenger boys ? 
 
 A. Certamly ; and I think we do now. 
 
 Q. What, already? 
 
 A. That is a matter of opinion. I think so. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say we should get the same class of telegraph mes- 
 sengers for the same pay if there was no prospect of obtaining established 
 postmen's wages? 
 
 A. I do not think we should get quite so good a class ; probably we 
 should have to pay a little more. 
 
 Q. Therefore if you brought do^^Ti the postmen's wages to what you hold 
 to be the market wage, you think we should have to increase the present 
 pay of our telegraph boys? 
 
 A. Well, I think tliere is less reason for lowering it in their case than 
 in the case of the other classes. I simply judge by what Messrs. Smith 
 pay their boys. Two or three years ago I was told that they have very 
 few vacancies above those of the boys who carry out the papers. 
 
 Q. But the boys later on get employment on the railways, don't they? 
 
 A. They may, but they have no claim on tlie railway companies, and our 
 boys could just as easily get on to tlie railway as Messrs. Smith's boys. 
 
 Q. I understand the present conditions are not good enough in many cases 
 to attract the kind of messengers we want, and I suppose if you give a 
 worse pay you will get a worse class? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Having regard to the Service as a whole, and beginning from the 
 time that the boy commences at the messenger rate, is there not some com- 
 pensation in the fact of his becoming eventually a postman? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you have now the information with regard to 
 the pay of telegraph messengers?
 
 570 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 A. Yes. The followiag statement shows approxiinatte'ly the presept 
 number of telegiuph messengers in the employment of the Post OflBce : — 
 
 London, 3450 
 
 England and Wales (exclusive of London),- - - 7630 
 
 Scotland, 1500 
 
 Ireland, 770 
 
 Total,- - - - 13,350 
 
 I was asked on Monday whether, if we reserve all our situations of post- 
 men — rural as well as town— for telegraph messengers, there would be any 
 situations left for retired soldiers, and I replied that there would be prac- 
 tically none. I find, however, on furtlier inijuiry, that in 1895 the De- 
 partment was able after providmg for telegraph messengers and auxiliary 
 postmen to find places as jjostmen for 141 retired soldiers. 
 
 The Chairman : Do you think that up to 1895 you were able to provide 
 for all the legitimate claims on behalf of telegraph messengers? 
 
 A. 1 doubt it. For instance, take the case of London 
 
 The Chairman : I rather want to know about the country ; we have 
 already dealt M-ith London i^retty fully. 
 
 A. The point is this, that if in London there are more boys than we can 
 find places for, we have not offered them situations in the country. The 
 same thing applies, I fancy, to our large towns. Supposing at Manchester 
 we have too many boys for the places, and at Liverpool we have more 
 places than boys, we do not offer to transfer the boys from Manchester to 
 Liverpool. 
 
 Q. Are places for the London boys found in the provinces? 
 
 A. I believe not at all. 
 
 Q. I should like to Imow whether in the provinces the legitimate claims 
 of telegraph messengers have been met during the past year? 
 
 A. i believe that, taking each town, they have been met as far as pos- 
 sible, but in some towns we could not find palaces for the boys, and conse- 
 quently those lads have to go, although at other towns there might have 
 been vacant places which they could have filled. If we had had a system 
 of filling up all vacancies for the boys wherever they might be, I doubt 
 whether we should have appointed l42 soldiers. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the case that in London we do practically pro- 
 vide for all the legitimate claims of telegraph messengers whom we employ? 
 
 A. Tliat is for Mr. Badcock to say. 
 
 Q. Is it not the case also that in those coimtry towns where a large ex- 
 pansion of postal business is going on we do, as a general rule, provide 
 for the telegraph messengers? 
 
 A. It is difficult to say. 
 
 Q. Will you take it from me that it is so? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. And in 'those towns whera postal business is stagnant we cannot so 
 provide for them? 
 
 A. I expect that would be the case. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Where did the 141 retired soldiers find vacancies ? 
 
 A. In towns where there were no telegraph messengers old enough to 
 be put on, and where there were no auxiliaries. 
 
 Q. In the smaller towns? 
 
 A. Not necessarily. It might be in any town. It might be_ the case 
 that no one had a claim to a vacancy, and, as the business was incr-asing 
 rapidly, and there were no boys available, soldiers were appointed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : And some of these soldiers, I presume, were appointed in 
 countrv districts where there were no telegraph messengers? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Cliairman : I suppose you have no figures showing the comparative
 
 The Appointment of Auxiliaries. 571 
 
 proportion of places filled up by telegraph messengers and by auxiliary 
 postmen ? 
 
 A. Yes; we have a return from 70 of the large towns. Shall I read it? 
 
 The Cliairman : No ; I do not think we need go into the details. Give 
 the totals. 
 
 A. The return shows the number of the established postmen in 70 large 
 towns. The total is 6,738. while the number of auxiliary postmen is 1,258, 
 and of auxiliaries who are ex-telegraph messengers 906, so that apparently 
 906 telegraph messengers could not at once get established appointments as 
 postmen. 
 
 The Chairman : Wh^t proportion of the established men were telegi'aph 
 messengers, and what proportion were auxiliaries? 
 
 A. We have no record to show that. I may go a little further and point 
 out that in 1895 the number of vacancies for postmen, including vacancies 
 occasioned by the creation of new situations, was as follows: — London 
 440, and the rest of the United Kingdom 1,520, making a total of 1,960 va- 
 cancies for postmen. 
 
 Q. Cannot you tell us how these were filled up? 
 
 A. No ; but in the main they were filled up by telegraph messengers — 
 I am sure of that. We Icnow, of course, that 141 M'ere filled up by retired 
 soldiers, but I should say tliat the rest were filled up absolutely by tele- 
 graph messengers or auxiliary porstmen doing double duty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I was trying to get at that ; I do not myself quite under- 
 stand how it is. We have received — -I will not say complaints, but — re- 
 presentations from several witnesses t' at the auxiliary postmen do not get 
 their fair share of the appointments because they are given to the telegraph 
 messengers ? 
 
 A. The auxiliary postmen, did you say? 
 
 Q. Yes ; and I want to know, if possible, how far the figures bear that out. 
 I understand that the first claim is in the telegrapli messengers, that failing 
 them come the auxiliarv postmen, and fuling tliem the retired soldiers? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. I .should like to know, if you cm tell us, how many of these 1,960 
 appointments (less the 141 given to soldiers) went to auxiliary postmen, and 
 how many to telegi-aph messengers? 
 
 A. You want me to distinguish between the two, but then I must find 
 out how many of the auxiliary postmen were in the first place telegraph mes- 
 sengers ? 
 
 The Chairman: Yes; the auxiliary might cover both. A telegi-aph mes- 
 senger might pass into the auxiliary ranks while waiting for an appointment 
 as established postman. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Then vou have not got the information I want? 
 
 A. No. " 
 
 Q. I do not say it was a complaint, but it was a I'epresentation to us 
 that auxiliarv postmen who had not been telegi-aph messengers rather felt 
 that they were ousted by the telegi-aph messengers, and did not get an equal 
 chance of admission into the established postmen's ranks. 
 
 A. I think we could get the information from one of the surveyors. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not a fact that the complaint to wliich Sir F. Mowatt 
 has alluded chiefly emanated from the London auxiliaries? 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt": Oh ! Is that so? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think so. 
 
 Q. Does the same complaint arise in the country, where it is usual to 
 appoint telegraph messengers as auxiliaries? 
 
 A. I suppose not ; but we have a great many auxiliaries in the Service 
 who never were telegraph messengers. 
 
 Q. In the provinces. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Are thev not as a rule men who usuilly are not applicants for estab- 
 lished places l>ecause they have other ti-ades?
 
 672 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 A. In the case of postmen doing single deliveries they doiil)tless are ; 
 they would have other trades. Mr. Seton could give you more inforniiition 
 on that point. I am informed by one of our surveyors who is present 
 thab in the case of an auxiliary who does more llian one duty — the double 
 aus diary, as we call liim — he is considered to have a prior claim to the 
 telegraph messengers. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : In the provinces? 
 
 A. Yes ; in the <listricts which Mr. Seton controls. I also know that, 
 as a rule, the double auxiliary is desirous of taking an established place, 
 although in some cases the man has a private business, and would prefer 
 to 'stick to it. 
 
 Q. I am only speaking of those who desire appointments. Are we to 
 ta.ke it that the complaint that the telegraph messenger is suppo.sed to have 
 a prior claim for appointment as established postman, as compared with 
 the auxiliary, would not apply to the whole of the provinces? 
 
 A. I am unable to answer that question beyond the information I liave 
 just given to the Committee. 
 
 Q. Perhaps you will reconsider that point, and put an answer in subse- 
 quently ? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I want to ask you a question about wages. You have 
 handed in a very importmt proposal with reference to the wages of postmen, 
 and j'ou have told us you liave put it in merely a.s an indication of how we 
 might alter those wages without materially increasing the expense. You 
 do not mean it is a definite proposal, do vou? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. You served on the Postmen's Committee in 1891, did vou not? 
 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. And concurred in the report? 
 
 A. I did ; certainly. 
 
 Q. The Committee recommended at that time an increase in the maximum 
 pay? 
 
 A. \es, we did, all through the country. 
 
 Q. And you recommended an increment of Is. 6d. instead of Is.? 
 
 A. Yes. " 
 
 Q. You recommended also more liberality in the stripe allowance? 
 
 A. Yes ; we did. 
 
 Q. Do j'ou still agree with the recommendations you then made? 
 
 A. Yes, I do. I must remind j^ou that our recommendations with regard 
 to the postmen followed the scheme adopted for the indoor people — the 
 sorting clerks and telegraphists. 
 
 Q. You do not think now that the recommendations with which, you con- 
 curred in 1891 were too libei'^al? 
 
 A. No ; having regard with what was done for tlie indoor force. 
 
 Q. I rather want to remove the impression that may have arisen from 
 your evidence that you thought the postmen were overpaid. 
 
 A. No ; I said they were jjaid in excess of the market value. 
 
 Q. You do not think they are paid with excessive liberality, then? 
 
 A. No ; not having regard to what the indoor staflp receive. 
 
 Q. You say that the lower scales are sufficiently high, and that the 
 higher scales are too high ? I should like to ask you, do you really think so ? 
 Talking of the provinces, do you adhere to your statement that the lower 
 scales in the provinces are sufficiently higli in all cases ? 
 
 A. What I intended to say was this : That our experience since 1891, 
 ■when the present scales were adopted, is that even the lower scales are 
 sufficient to get us the class of people we require, and to induce them to 
 stay in the Service when once they are there. 
 
 "the Chairman : The case of Harrogata has been mentioned to this Com- 
 mittee, where the postmen are paid from 16s. to 22s. Do you think, con- 
 sidering the circumstances of that town, that the scale is sufficiently high?
 
 The Harrogate Case. 573 
 
 A. The Harrogate town postmeu are now on the scale 16s. by Is. to 22s., 
 and the rural postmen 15s. by Is. to 19s. The jwstmen at Harrogate, 
 both town and rural, applied lor a better scale in 1894, and at that time 
 the surveyor reported that there was no difficulty whatever exj)erienced 
 in obtaining suitable men as town and rural postmen at the rate of wages 
 then paid at Harrogate. He therefore did not recommend an improved scale 
 for the present. Since that time we have given a better scale in many 
 towns in which, as far as we can judge, the value of labour Ls not greater 
 than at Harrogate. This is the case with many towns in Lancashire. Last 
 May the postmen at Harrogate again applied for a better scale. In tlie 
 interim I may say we had given the scale to better towns, and on tlds 
 further application it was decided that it should await the decision of your 
 Committee. 
 
 Mr. Waljx)le : During the last few montks we have rather held our hands 
 in the matter of altering scales of pay until it could be known what the 
 report of this Committee would be. 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. And the Harrogate men have suffered in that respect? 
 
 A. Yes ; they have. 
 
 Q. Were you of opinion they did make out a case for an increased scale? 
 
 A. I think they made out a case, having regard to the higher wages 
 paid elsewhere. 
 
 The Chairman : You have drawn out a memorandum with regard to the 
 various scales of jmy in force in the case of country postmen, and your 
 suggestion is that there might lie a simplification and a reduction in a 
 number of scales? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think that you yourself called attention to the multiplicity of 
 scales, and asked whether they could not be reduced in number. I have 
 here a statement showing the number of scales for both town and rural 
 labour in the provinces. There are 15 scales. 
 
 Q. At present in force? 
 
 A. Yes ; at present in force. 
 
 Q. In the provinces alone? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Tlie Chairman : Will you put it in ? 
 
 A. Yes ; that can be added to my evidence. 
 
 The following is the memorandum put in by Mr. Hill : — 
 
 Scales of pay for established (full duty) postmen, town and rural, in the 
 United Kmgdoni. There are at present 13 sucli scales, viz.: — 
 
 '»:l. 
 
 Approsimate 
 
 
 
 No on each 
 
 
 
 Class. 
 
 
 
 2,900 
 
 17/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 2,000 
 
 17/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 2.300 
 
 17/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 1,870 
 
 17/- 
 
 V- 
 
 790 
 
 16/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 80 
 
 17/- 
 
 v- 
 
 1,750 
 
 16/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 650 
 
 17/- 
 
 V- 
 
 2,700 
 
 16/- 
 
 J/- 
 
 61 
 
 15/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 2,530 
 
 15/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 190 
 
 14/- 
 
 !/• 
 
 510 
 
 13/- 
 
 v- 
 
 28 - ^ - Town Postmen only. 
 
 26';-) 
 
 24/- - Town and a few Eural. 
 
 24/- - Town Postmen only. 
 
 22/- - Eural Postmen. 
 
 22/- - Town Postmen. 
 
 21/- - Rural Postmen. 
 
 20/- - Rural Postmen 
 
 20/- - Town Postmen (Ireland only). 
 
 19/- - Rural Postmen (Ireland only). 
 
 18/- - do. 
 
 17/- - do. 
 
 18,334 
 
 If the rural postmen be placed on the scales of pay in force for, or proper 
 to town postmen and sub-office postmen at the offices to which they are
 
 574 Mr. E. B. Lkwis Hill. 
 
 attaxined, tne uumoer of scales of pay would be reduced from 13 to 7. A 
 further reduction in the number of tlie sc;ile.s could be made by placing the 
 postmen (nbout 800 in number) now on the scale of 16s. Is. 24s. on the 
 scale of 17s. Is. 24s. Of this the estimated cost is £1,000 a year. 
 There would, therefore, be six scales of pay only, viz. : — 
 Approximate No. on 
 
 each Clas.s, 
 
 
 
 
 2,900 
 
 17/- 
 
 i/- 
 
 30/- 
 
 2,050 
 
 1 /- 
 
 1/- 
 
 28,'- 
 
 2,4!0 
 
 17/- 
 
 V- 
 
 2(5/- 
 
 4,4 
 
 17/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 24/- 
 
 5,780 
 
 1(!/- 
 
 1/- 
 
 22/- 
 
 764 
 
 15/- 
 
 V- 
 
 20/- (Ireland only). 
 
 18,334 
 Estimated cost of altering the scales as shown above — 
 
 For Rural Postmen, - - £80,0 a year. 
 
 ,, Town rostmen, - - 1,000 ,, 
 
 Total, - £31,000 a year. 
 
 The Chairman : Of course m this proposal you have not combined your 
 suggestion with regard to an increase of the increment? 
 
 A. No ; this is merely an attempt to meet your view. 
 
 Q. Supposing you had a combination of these two schemes, you might 
 then still further reduce the number of scales, I should think? 
 
 A. It may be fairly remarked tliat, although the scales set forth in 
 this memorandum look very numerous, we do not find any difficulty in 
 applying them. 
 
 Q. But surely it is difficult to make a man understand why he should 
 receive one scale of pay, while another man in the same town and doing 
 apparently the same number of hours" work is receiving a diff..'rent scale of 
 pay ? 
 
 A. les; tmt that difficulty would still remain, but not to so large an 
 extent. 
 
 Q. Not to the same extent? 
 
 A. No; but there would still be some difficulty. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Some of these classes are extremely small; one, I see. 
 has only 80 men in it. Thev are disappearing, are thev not, as a class? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In Ireland on a scale 15s. by Is. to 20s. there are 69, and in another 
 class there are only 190, so that really 7 or 8 would repre.sent the total 
 number of large classes now? 
 
 A. Yes ; certainly. 
 
 Mr. Smith: On the other hand, would it be your view that the more you 
 reduce the number of scales the more diflicult it would be t-o avoid pay 
 rates about the market value in some towns, and below the market value in 
 others, seeing that in an immense number of localities the wages differ? 
 
 A. I think that seven or eight scales would enable us to avoid that near 
 enough. 
 
 The Chairman : I asked you a question with regard to the promotion of 
 provincial postmen and of telegraph messengers to the position of sorting 
 clerks, and you told me that in manv instances such promotions take place. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you any further information on the point? 
 
 A. Yes ; I desire to add that during the last 15 years I have had many 
 opportunities of consulting provincial Postmasters about the work of their 
 ofiices, and their general experience is postmen and telegi'aph messengers 
 so promoted do the less important duties of the indoor staff fairly well, 
 but that very few of them prove to be fit for the higher work of tlie office.
 
 The Auxiliaries' Standard Rate of Pay. 575 
 
 Postmasters, therefore, prefer to recruit the indoor staff from outside the 
 Service, and from persons with a better general mental training, 
 
 Q. Then that would account for the comparative rarity of these ap- 
 pointments ? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Now, as to the wages paid to the provincial auxiliary postmen. Wliat 
 are they? 
 
 A. The rate is 6d. per hour between 5 a.m. and 9 p.m., 8d. between 
 9 p.m. and midnight, and 9d. between midnight and 5 a.m. There seems 
 to be no reason why the Department should pay a common rate of aux- 
 iliary wages throughout the United Kingdom. The auxiliary wages, like 
 the established wages, depend in a great measure on the cost of living and 
 the value of labour in a locality, and rates which are proper for cities and 
 towns like Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, and Liverpool, would ob- 
 viously be too high for a town in an agricultural district. The most 
 equitable method of fixing the wages of auxiliary postmen is to pay them at 
 a rate calculated to repres.^nt as nearly as possible 6d. per hour on -the 
 weekly wages of the men on the established scale, with a proviso that in no 
 case should the rate be less than 4d. per hour. I am not sure whether the 
 men on any appointed scale get less than 4d. jjer hour. The wages should 
 be fixed for attendance on week days only, and the attendance on Sundays 
 should be paid for with a separate allowance calcula^ted at rate-and-a- 
 quarter. Those attending between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. should have the 
 same allowance as established men, viz., that 525 minutes should count as 
 an hour, and an attendance of S^ hours in the night should be paid for as 
 an attendance of 4 hours. The attendances on early morning and late even- 
 ing duties should be given only to auxiliaries other than ex-telegraph mes- 
 sengers, and should not exceed 4 hours, and the employment should cease 
 in all cases when the auxiliary reaches the age of 50 years. 
 
 Q. Fifty years of age? 
 
 A. Yes ; I suggest that a single duty auxiliary should cease to 
 come in to work when he is 50 years of age on the ground that at that age 
 he becomes less useful to us. At that age he is rather apt to give up his 
 jjrivate business and depend on the 6s., 7s., or 8s. a week he gets from the 
 Department. Still, I do not attach much importance to this recommen- 
 dation. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But a single delivery does not involve much strain on a 
 man. 
 
 A. No ; but at 50 a man gets slow and less useful to us. 
 
 Q. Wliat is the age at which a man gets slow? 
 
 A. I got slow many years ago. (Laughter.) 1 do not hold that a man 
 who works for us only 3 hours a day has a claim on us for ever. If the 
 system of admitting that every man you employ has a claim on you is to 
 continue, nobody will employ anybody, even for housework or to black one's 
 boots, as there is no telling where the liability of the employer would stop. 
 However, I do not attach much importance to this point. 
 
 The Chairman : It is rather hard to turn a man away from his work be- 
 cause he is 50 years old. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Mr. Smith : Your proposal that an auxiliaiy should cease at 50 is con- 
 fined to those who would be employed on a single duty? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. And 3^ou would make a definite rule that he should not be employed 
 on more than one attendance? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. And your object is to get some guarantee which at present you have 
 not got that they are not dependent solely or mainly on the Department 
 for their living? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. They would l)e simply people engaged in other trades whom the 
 Department pays to do a job for it?
 
 576 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And you think it would be an additional safeguard if a man knew 
 he would not be kept on the job after he reached 50 years of age? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. It would not be a case of dismissing a man. You would not regard 
 him as permanently in the Service? 
 
 A. Yes. I rei>eat I do not attach much importance to it. But there 
 is a tendency, as a man gets too old, for him to give up his private work; 
 then something may happen, and the P.O. is abused for employing a jjerson 
 who has nothing else to do, and giving him only 7s., 8s., or 9s. a week, 
 as the case maj^ be. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Under the arrangement you suggest do you think you 
 could always find sufficient men? 
 
 A. I have no doubt we could, especially at the better wages we give. 
 At the present time we have no difficulty in finding auxiliary postmen 
 in the country. 
 
 Q. To do a single delivery? 
 
 A. Yes ; cobblers and tailors, and men in a small way of business, in 
 which they would not be occupied at the time we want them. They are 
 very glad to get the exercise and to l)e paid for doing it. Then, too, they 
 make a little connection for themselves on their delivery. They are a very 
 good body of men indeed, and I am very glad to have them. They should, 
 on taking up their appointment, sign a statement to the effect that they 
 have independent means of subsistence which would, with the P.O. pay, 
 l)ring them in 18s. a week at least. That should be done in the provinces 
 as well as in London. 
 
 Mr. Smith : Do you think the declaration is found to be of any value in 
 London ? g 
 
 A. That is for Mr. Badcora; to say. 
 
 Q. I do not think that Mr. Badcock attaches much importance to it. 
 Yet you propose to extend that to the country? 
 
 A. Yes ; but only to protect ourselves against the charge that we give 
 our men too small wages. Wlien a man has nothing else to do he is 
 tempted to steal. 
 
 Q. Would not the effect of introducing such a rule rather tend to encour- 
 age the employment of auxiliaries? 
 
 A. I do not see that it would. We must have auxiliaries on morning 
 deliveries. 
 
 The Cliairman : But is not the proper policy to reduce the auxiliaries to 
 the lowest jw-ssible number consistent with ' the interests of the public 
 service ? 
 
 A. Yes, certainly. When we can make a full duty we do. We prefer to 
 employ a man the whole of his time, because then' we have a better hold 
 over him. As far as I can see. however, we shall never be able to do 
 away with the auxiliary force without employing people only half a day 
 and giving them a full day's pay. They must fully understand that they 
 can look for no further remuneration from or advancement in the Post 
 Office, that their employment is only temporary, that it is subject to be 
 terminated at a week's notice, and that under no circumstances will it be 
 continued after they are 50, However, to that last condition I do not at- 
 tach much importance. As many auxiliary duties as possible should be 
 allotted to ex-telegraph messengers who are desirous of becoming estab- 
 lished postmen : the attendance should amount to 5 or 6 hours a day. The 
 maximum attendance should in no case exceed 5 hours a day, and" no lad 
 of less than 18 years should 1^ employed between 10 p.m. "and midnight, 
 and not less than 20 years of age between midnight and 5 a.m. Tliat is our 
 present rule. As far as practicable outsiders, i.e., auxiliaries other than 
 ex-telegraph messengers, should be employed only in the earlv morning 
 or late evening, with one attendance not exceeding 4 hours, and then em- 
 ployment should cease in all cases at 50 years. As regards counting aux-
 
 The Counting of Auxiliary Service on Appointment. 577 
 
 iliarv service towards entering the established class above the minimum, 
 the arrangement described will no doubt lead to more rapid promotion for 
 the ex-telegraph messengers. These lads should, it is thought, be dis- 
 tinguished from outsiders. Half of their service beyond one year might 
 perhaps be allowed to count as full-tune service as regards the commencing 
 wage on the established class, and for every year of full service thus formed 
 they might be allowed one increment on entering the established scale. 
 Every such full j^ear of service might also count towards good conduct 
 stripes. Annual leave of two weeks might also be allowed them, but as 
 their wages would be fixed rateably at the mean of the established scale, 
 it is thought that the higher proportionate pay should compensate them for 
 receiving no sick pay or boot allowance, which are at pre.sent confined to 
 persons doing a full day's work. With regard to annual leave, I find that 
 telegraph messengers are very often allowed a fortnight's holiday. 
 
 The Chairman : I understand that, but they cannot claim it? 
 
 A. No ; it has not besn given as a general rule, but where it is asked for 
 it has been allowed. 
 
 Q. You told us last time that the average pay of an auxiliary was 4d. 
 or 5d. an hour in the provinces? 
 
 A. A little more tlian 5d. 
 
 Q. Do you consider that that payment secures exactly the class of men 
 that you want? 
 
 A. I doubt it. I think that if we paid a little more we should get better 
 service. The Confidential Inquiry Branch at our office tell me that a large 
 proportion of the thefts and other acts of dishonesty are committed by 
 auxiliary rather than by established postmen, and I think that that points 
 to the fact we are not getting as good a class of auxiliary as we require. 
 
 Q. Then you think that by increasing tlie rate we should get a better class 
 of men? 
 
 A. I think we should. 
 
 Q. Do you consider it is necessary to get a better class of men in the 
 auxiliary service? 
 
 A. I think it is desirable. 
 
 Q. In the interests of the public? 
 
 A. Yes. I base that statement on the fact that there is more dishonesty 
 among the auxiliaries than in the established class. 
 
 Q. So far as the provinces are concerned, you give no extra pay for 
 Sunday or night work? 
 
 A. As regards Sunday work, it has been roughly included in the pay. 
 An auxiliary Avho works six day gets 6s., and one who works seven days 
 gets a shilling more. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I thought we had had it in evidence that Sunday work 
 was counted in ]:)y the hour at the same rate of payment as week-day work? 
 
 A. If a man works on Sundays he is paid at a higher rate. 
 
 The Chairman : I underst md not. You siid if he worked on Sunday 
 he would receive more than the man who only worked on week days? 
 
 A. Yes ; his pay is higher in that case. 
 
 Q. Surely it would naturally be so if he worked a day more per week' 
 Is no extra consideration given for his Sunday work? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Smith : You said he got a shilling a week more ? 
 
 A. We sive 6s. for six r'ays', and 7s. for seven davs' work. 
 
 The Chairman : So that if he does Sunday work he gets exactly the 
 same rate of pay as for Monday's work ? 
 
 Mr. Smith : Would an auxiliary doing 12 hours a week, including somt- 
 on Sunday, get more than a man doing 12 hours, none of which fell oi 
 Sundav? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 The Cliairman : A man who works seven days a week naturally gets 
 rather more than a man who does six days' work? 
 
 T
 
 S78 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hiix 
 
 Mr. Smith : I was mistaken just now in saying that Mr. Badoock at- 
 taches little or no importance to the declaration signed by the auxiliaries 
 in London regarding outside employment. I see now that he said it wa8 
 a guarantee to a certain extent. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : You say that telegraph messengers employed as auxiliaries 
 have in a great many instances received annual holidavs? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. We liave it in evidence from Glasgow that a very large number of 
 telegraph messengers are employed as auxiliaries, and in no caso do they re- 
 ceive holidays. Has your attention been drawn to that fact? 
 
 A. No ; it has not. 
 
 Q. It was also said that out of 200 auxiliaries, probably not more than 24 
 have outside employment, and that they are mostly ex-telegrapli messengera 
 waiting for established appointments. These telegraph messengers, when 
 acting as messengers, get a fortnight's holiday, but when they are promoted 
 to be auxiliaries the lioliday privilege is withdrawn. What have you to 
 say as to that? 
 
 A. I understand that the giving to the ex-telegraph messengers who are 
 now auxiliaries a lioliday has been recently introduced, and is only being 
 gradually introduced. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I imagine you would agree with me in thinking that some 
 rule should be laid down in the matter one wiy or another? 
 
 A. Oh, certainly. I was asked by Lord Tweedmouth on Monday if 1 
 knew what was the pay of persons employed as carriers, with whom 1 
 was comparing the postmen. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Are vou speaking of Carter Paterson's, and people of 
 that sort? 
 
 A. Yes ; of the servants of such firms generally in London. I have made 
 some inquiries, and .so far as I can learn they are paid 21s. to 25s. a week, 
 but they also get some little percentage on pdrt of their work in addition. 
 I am here speaking generally of carriers in London, and not particularly of 
 Carter Pater.snn's men. 
 
 The Cliairman : Tiiat is quite up to the postmen's standard, is it not? 
 
 A. The 25s. is not up to the London standard. 
 
 Q. Yes. I think so, with the gratuities. They start at 21s. instead of 
 18s., and although they stop at 25s. they get some gratuities. 
 
 A. Yes, some little percentage ; but the postmen get a good deal beyond 
 their wages. They get uniform, free medical attendance, medicine, full pay 
 when sick, a fortnight's holiday, and pension, and the carriers get none of 
 these advantvages, besides which the postmen rise to 34s. As to the atten- 
 dance being brought within the 12 hours' limit, it is the practice as far as 
 practicable to restrict the covering period over which the 8 hours' attendance 
 is spread -\vithin about 12 hours a day. That practice was. I think, begun 
 about 1890 in consequence of representations by the postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It is one of the recommendations of the Committee of 
 1890-91. 
 
 A. Yes ; and it arose out of the requests repeated here that the atten- 
 dance should be brought within 12 hours. To do so, however, in all cases 
 would necessitate the employment of a large number of auxiliary postmen, 
 as the morning and evening duties, being as a rule the heaviest, render 
 necessary the employment of more men at those times than during the rest 
 of the day. The interests of the present established men and of the aux- 
 iliary postmen are therefore opposed to each other, and the witnesses on 
 behalf of the established men ask for the 12 hours' limit to be strictly 
 applied, while the auxiliaries ask that more established duties may be formed, 
 and auxiliary labour in the Post Office be reduced as far as practicable. 
 Unless the 8 hours' attendance be allowed to spread over a covering period 
 of more than 12 hours it will not only prevent in many cases additional full 
 duties being performed, but it will he necessary in some cases to convert 
 on vacancies present established situations into auxiliary ones — a step which
 
 The 12 Hour Day. 679 
 
 would be most injurious to the interests of the large number of telegraph 
 messengers ■who hope to obtain established appointments as postmen. 
 Moreover, it has been ascertained from experience that the postmen not in- 
 frequently prefer a duty spread over about 14 or 15 hours, witli a long in- 
 terval in the day-time, to one involving three or four attendances within the 
 12 hours" limit. Such, for instance, is the case at Brighton, Eastbourne, 
 Exeter (15 duties spread over 14^ hours), Plymouth (16 duties), London 
 Eastern Central District, and at many other places. I may mention with 
 regard to the case of Brighton I made a report to the Committee on Post- 
 men of 1890-91, dated the 17th November, 1890. I was then sent to visit 
 the large offices to learn as far as I could what the postmen wanted, what 
 was the value of their labour, and their general conditions of service. At 
 Brighton I inquired whether the postmen desired to have their duty brought 
 within 12 hours, and upon that point my report was as follows: — "The 
 duties of one section of the town postmen are spread over about 15 liours, 
 with an interval during the middle of the day of from five to six hours. 
 The duties of the other section are spread over a period of 10^ houi-s. It 
 is thought that the postmen do not desire any limitation of the period 
 over which their attendance is spread. The men working on the 15 hours' 
 period attach much value to the long interval in the middle of the day, 
 which enables them to earn money in window cleaning, etc." On February 
 last I asked the Postmaster at Brighton whether what I had described as 
 the state of the facts in 1890 still held good, and he replied on the 28th of 
 last month: — " Tlie circumsfcvnces are unchanged. Before I reported on the 
 last revision of the outdoor force I caused a ballot to be taken amongst tlie 
 postmen, and I found that a large majority were in favour of the present 
 system." As an illustration of the working of the 12 hours' limit, if 
 strictly applied, the following instances now or recently under considera- 
 tion may be mentioned: — At Edinburgh the postmen are, the Department is 
 assured, perfectly satisfied with the present arrangement, which admits of 
 suitable intervals for rest in the day-time, when the attendance is spread 
 over more than 12 hours. To apply the rule strictly would necessitate 
 about 100 additional auxiliaries being employed at a cost of about £2,300 
 a year, and tlie present established postmen would have considerably less 
 than a full day's work. 
 
 The Cliairman : Would it be possible more largely to make the postmen 
 do sorting and such other work? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have something to say with regard to giving more sorting 
 work to postmen. During the last few months we have introduced a cliange 
 of system in the training of our indoor staff. We have arranged that all 
 persons entering the provincial offices on the indoor staff should be first 
 trained in telegraph work and then in postal work. They begin the tele- 
 graph work at an early age, and then go on to the postal work. The object 
 of th.at is twofold. First, that our mdoor staff should be able to do both 
 sides of the duty, or at least to have sufficient acquaintance with both sides, 
 and in the next place that the two side-s of the Service as regards entrants 
 should be on an absolute equality in the matter of wages. It would be 
 impossible for us to train experienced postmen in telegraph work, as they 
 are too old, and to employ tliem much in sorting work would, I think, 
 upset existing arrangements, or would, at all events, to some extent upset 
 them. 
 
 The Chairman : I must say it seems to me that you have an enormous 
 force of men of one sort or another, and that by keeping great bodies of 
 them so much apart for individual duties you waste a great force. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is not one of the objects of this alteration you have men- 
 tioned to prevent the very waste of force to which the Chairman has 
 alluded ? 
 
 A. That is so as regards the indoor staff. 
 
 Q. We want to have the men available and competent to do other work, 
 according as the exigencies of the Service demand?
 
 580 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 A. Yes ; other indoor work. 
 
 Q. And would it not be possible to employ a certain number of postmen 
 on a certain portion of the sorting duties as at Liverpool, becuuse the sort- 
 ing postmen would not be got rid of under this scheme? 
 
 A. Yes. I think it would be possible so to employ them ; but it would 
 not be possible to give the whole of the sorting work to postmen. 
 
 The Chairman : I mean tliat you miglit perhaps distribute the duties 
 more over your whole force, and by that means have a larger proportion of 
 established men, and dispense as far as possible with auxiliaries, and also 
 give your established men more continuous duty? 
 
 A. Yes ; exactly. At Car.litT the attendances of 90 postmen are restricted 
 within a limit of 13 hours, thosa of the remainder — 67 in number — are 
 within 14 hours, with intervals during the da5'-time of from 3^ to 5 hours 
 for rest. A large number of auxiliaries would liave to be employed at a 
 cost of about £1.100 a year, and the established men would necessarily in 
 many cases have less than a full day's work, if the 12 hours' limit were 
 strictly applied. At Waterford the force would have to be altered from 9 
 established and 2 auxiliary postmen to 5 established and 10 auxiliary post- 
 men to i'Pply the 12 hours' limit. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In all those cases that you have cited where additional 
 cost would arise from this scheme. I presume it would only arise if you 
 kept the same number of established men as now? 
 
 A. Yes ; only you would not l>e able to give your established men a 
 full day's work. 
 
 Q. But you could reduce the number of established men where necessary, 
 and increase the number of auxiliaries? That would involve no increase of 
 cost? 
 
 A. The opinion of the practical officers is that you could not arrange a 
 full day's work for your estaldished men. 
 
 Q. Is it not rather the fact that you could not arrange a full day's work 
 for the same number of estaldishtd men that you could for a certain number ? 
 
 A. Yes. I should here add tliat I am not responsible for these estimates, 
 as they are given to us by our provincial stifiF. The surveyor reports as 
 regards Perth, that if he is permitted to disregard the 12-hour limit, but 
 not otherwise, established force could be substituted for auxiliary postmen. 
 
 The Chairman: Is the 12 hour^' limit in force there? 
 
 A. Yes. Another surveyor reports on a case where 8 auxiliaries are 
 employed as compared with 12 established postmen: — "This case affords so 
 strong a proof of the evil effects of the endeavour to restrict rigidly the 
 duties of town postmen within a period of 12 hours that I beg for the 
 Secretary's a'.ithority, when considering the question of a revision, to 
 proceed on the old established Imj of providing as many fully employed 
 duties as possible, due regard being, of conrse, paid to the desirability of 
 consolidating the duties as far as possible." 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I understand that you cannot lay down a general rule as 
 to the desirability of consolidating the duties, because in cases like those 
 of Brighton or Eastbourne, the po.stmen themselves would object to that 
 very consolidation, would they not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. In the cases of Brighton and Eastbourne they did object? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. They prefer separating the duties? 
 
 A. Yes. At Bradford the auxiliary force could be reduced on vacancies 
 from 28 to 10 if the 12 hours' limit be not applied. So also at Rochdale, 
 where the auxiliary force could be reduced from 8 to 1. The surveyor of 
 the North-Western District reports as regards Bradford, Huddersfield. and 
 Keighley : — "These cases, I think, fully prove the Impracticability in the 
 great majority of cases of restricting the town postmen's duties within a
 
 the 12 Hour Day. 581 
 
 covering period of 12 hours, except by the employment of an excessive 
 number of auxiliaries. There are other similar cases"^ in the district." The 
 surveyor of the Western District reports: — "It is absolutely impossible to 
 fiiad full duties and confine the attendance within the limit of 12 hours. 
 To effect this the number of auxiliary postmen must be largely increased 
 throughout my district." At Newport (Mon.) it will probably be" practicable 
 under a revision of the duties already in hand to reduce the auxiliary force 
 considerably and create several additional established appointments, buf 
 this cannot be done if the 12 hours' limit be a2)plied. Aiotlier surveya, 
 reports as follows respecting the number of attendances of established post 
 men: — "It is a very ordinary thing for a. postman to give four attendance^ 
 a day, and in many cases it would be inexpedient and inconvenient, even 
 from the man's own point of view, to reduce the number. A postman who 
 comes on duty, as the Deal postmen do, at 6 a.m. or 6.15 a.m., has usually 
 only a liglit breakfast before he starts, and it is desirable for his health's 
 sake that he should have an interval for rest and refreshment at 9 a.m. or 
 10 a.m. before commencing his second delivery. The men also like an 
 interval for dinner in the middle of the day, and another for their tea 
 before commencing their evening delivery. Indeed, in outdoor revisions, 
 it is very important to allow a sufficient number of breaks so that the men 
 may not have too long stretches of walking." In view of these fax;ts, it 
 would be most undesirable to lay down a strict 12 hours' limit as the 
 longest period over which the attendance of an established postman should 
 be spread. At the smallest offices it would be utterly impossible to observe 
 such a rule, and the result would be that auxiliaries would liave to be sub- 
 stituted for established force, while at the larger offices the strict application 
 of the rule would not only prevent auxiliary duties being in a large number 
 of cases converted into established ones, but would also necessitate a reduc- 
 tion in the established force in many instances. Of course, by employing 
 additional auxiliaries, and giving the present established postmen consider- 
 ably less than a full day's work, the rule could \jc applied in most cjises 
 to the existing established men, but the cost would be very large, and such 
 a step could not be recommended. The arrangement would not only be 
 extremely wasteful, but would lead to a large increase in auxiliary labour, 
 which would be highly undesirable. There is no doubt that the postmen 
 would object to such an increase in the auxiliary force. Under all these 
 circumstances it is thought that the practice to be followed should be to 
 form as many full-time duties as possible within the 12 hours' limit, and 
 then to frame as many additional full duties" as practicable in such a manner 
 as to allow a good interval for rest at night of from 8 to 9 hours Ijetween 
 the last and first duties, the attendances in such cases being arranged as 
 far as practicable so as not to exceed two a day, with a long interval for 
 rest between them. Postmen frequently prefer duties with a long interval 
 between them in the day-time, and on a revision the duties could be selected 
 according to seniority. A Dublin postman said he was in favour of 
 making more full duties, even if they be spread over as many as 15 hours, 
 as the auxiliaries would prefer to be made established and have these duties 
 rather than remain auxiliaries. The following question is asked in the report 
 furnished by the surveyor at every general revision of the town postmen's 
 duties: — "Will the attendance of the full-duty postmen be restricted within 
 a covering period of 12 hours? If not, would the cost of so restricting it 
 be excessive, and would the postmen have less than a full duty?" We have 
 not asked the further question whether the postmen want it, but we might 
 ask that. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : If your evidence is adopted would you recommend the 
 omission of tliis question in future? 
 
 A. Yes ; I should be disposed to recommend the omission of it. I don't 
 think it is worth sj>ending money on it seeing how often the postmen do 
 not desire it.
 
 oS2 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 Q. The gLst of your evidence is, upon that point, that it is undesirable 
 to make a Jiard and fast line? 
 
 A. Yes ; there is a great difference between the condition of men in small 
 towns wliere they live near tlieir offices and in large towns where they have 
 to live far away. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Sniitli : Do I understand tliat the proposal sketched out 
 would involve a departure from tlie present policy of the Post Office, or is 
 it a description of the policy you at present pursue? 
 
 A. It is in the main a description of the policy we at present pursue. 
 I think we have worked the 12 hours' limit rather too much. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Is it not the fact th;it we regard the 12 hours' limit as 
 the ideal, and that we strain after it, but tliat Ln many cases we cannot 
 attain it? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith: Of the two things — tlie 12 hours' limit and the 
 reduction of the number of auxiliaries — you would prefer to regard the 
 latter as the ideal to be sought? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: That is rather contrary to the recommendations of the 
 Postmen's Committee, is it not? 
 A. Yes ; I think it is. 
 
 Mr. LlewelhTi Smith : Your experience of the working of that recommen- 
 dation is that' you have got to a point at which if you press the thing too 
 far you incur greater evils than vou remedy? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you any rule with regrird to tlie amount of interval 
 between different duties which is counted or not counted in the provinces? 
 A. I think the interval is from a quarter to half-an-hour. At the same 
 time, from the replies to some of the complaints I have notices that there 
 have been intervals of something like an hour which have been allowed 
 to count a.s duty, but I think from a quarter to half-an-hour is more 
 common. 
 
 The Chairman: You Jiave no regular rule? 
 A. I think we have no hard and fast line. 
 
 Q. What rule have you with regard to the exchange of duties among men 
 in the provinces? 
 
 A. Are you speaking "of when a man desires to be absent? 
 Q. Yes ; when he wants to be off and gets a friend who is willing to take 
 his duty. Do you alloV that in the provinces? 
 
 A. I think that would be described better by Mr. Joyce, who is going 
 to take questions of discipline. 
 
 Q. At the last sitting I asked you what special allowances a provincial 
 postman had, and what is their amount? 
 
 A. There are about 2.420 such allowances paid to established provincial 
 tc'wn postmen at about 300 provincial head offices out of a total number of 
 914 provincial head offices. These allowances amount in all to about 
 £24,100 a year, or an average of about £9 19s. 2d. a year (equivalent to 3s. 
 lOd. per week per recipient. If the total number of provincial established 
 town postmen be taken ^s about 12,000, about 20 per cent, are receiving 
 special allowances. Of the whole number of provincial established postmen 
 (town, sub-office, and rural), about 12 per cent, are receiving special al- 
 lowances. 
 
 Q. Practically all the allowances are given to the provincial town post- 
 men? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. The rural provincial postmen get very few, if any? 
 A. That is so, because they do not do the special work which we require, 
 and for which the allowances are given. But the rural postman still has 
 his Christmas boxes?
 
 The (Jainying of Parcels. ' 583 
 
 Q. I assume he has. 
 
 A. The object of these allowances from the country is to induce certain 
 postmen to do indoor work, and to undertake station service, and they 
 naturally would object to take that duty if they were on that account to lose 
 their Christmas boxes. 
 
 Q. Do you give special remuneration for night duty in the provinces? 
 
 A. Night duty counts shorter ; each hour of the night duty is counted 
 as rather more than an hour, and that is the only advantage. 
 
 Q. Is that given in all cases of night duty, whether short or long? 
 
 A. I should say that substantially that is so ; but, of course, it might not 
 be 80 if a man does say a quarter-of-an-hour's night duty. 
 
 Q. But if he does a couple of hours of night duty? 
 
 A. It ought to be done in all such cases. I am now told that the rule 
 is that when the night duty is less than two hours we do not count 'S 09 
 sucli. 
 
 Q. What hours do you reckon as night? 
 
 A. 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. 
 
 Q. We liave had a good many complaints about the inconveniences of 
 parcel delivery to the postmen, especially from the provinces, and from rural 
 letter-carriers ? 
 
 A. The present rule that only a few of the lighter and less bulky 
 parcels are to be delivered with the letters is, it is believed, uuloi stood 
 and acted on generally. Inquiry is made at every revision of force whether 
 this rule is being ol)served. Any postman who considers that he is over- 
 burdened with parcels or letters can a.sk for relief, and this is afforded 
 whenever the cLrcumstiinces in the opinion of the controlling officer are 
 considered to warrant it. Han<l-carts or vans are used, for delivering and 
 collecting parcels where necessary, and the present arrangements are con- 
 sidered to be satisfactory. To support tl:eir plea that the parcel delivery 
 may be separated entirely from the dcli%-ery of letters, many statements have 
 V/€e'n made in the evidence which are either totally without foundation or 
 have much exaggertated the actual facts. For instance, tlie statement made 
 as to the postmen at Manchester having to take out 14 or 15 parcels with 
 their letters is thus explained in an extract from report of surveyor, Man- 
 chester : — "The revision of outdoor duties at Manchester was only carried 
 into effect on the 3rd February, an<l owing to the pres.sure and confusion 
 caused by the new working arrangements a number of parcels whicli should 
 in proper course have been delivered by postmen with hand-carts were 
 delivered by postmen by hand. I cannot, however, find out that any post- 
 man carried as many as 14 or 15 parcels. There . is no doubt, however, 
 that some of them carried more than the usual number at first, but the 
 matter was put right after the first day or two. In the Central District 
 of Manchester at the first delivery all parcels are taken out by horse and 
 van, and by hand-cjirt ; at the other deliveries the heavy and bulky parcels 
 are taken out by horse and van, and the smaller and lighter parcels by the 
 postmen with their letters. The parcels delivered by the postmen with their 
 letters are few in number, averaging less than one per man for two deli- 
 veries. It sometimes happens, however, that a postman will have more 
 than the regulation number of parcels at one of his deliveries, and in such a 
 case assistance is given to him. In the other districts of Manchester the 
 whole of the parcels are delivered by postmen, the smaller parcels being 
 mainly delivered with the letters, and the larger parcels separately, after 
 the completion of the letter delivery. The time occupied in the separate 
 parcel delivery is regarded as part of the postman's 8 hours' duty. Under 
 this arrangement relief is not necessary, as full provision is made in the 
 duty schemes for the deliveiy of all parcels, small or large. The witness's 
 statement in this paragraph is not correct. The arrangement as regards 
 the number and weight of parcels delivered with the letters is in accordance 
 with the rule {i.f., 4 or 5 of the lighter and less bulky parcels per man of 
 a total weight of not more than 11 lbs.), the only exception being when a
 
 584 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 postman is allowed to carry more than the ordinary number with his letters 
 in order to save him the labour of making a special delivery of parcels after 
 the completion of his letter delivery. It freijuently happens that a post- 
 man wishes to take out a few extra parcels with the letters in order to 
 save himself trouble during the subsef|nent special parcel delivery. This 
 slight departure from the general rule, which is entirely in the interests of 
 the postmen, is only allowed when the delivery of letters will not be re- 
 tarded thereby." 
 
 Witness : Inquiry has been made in several instances as regards the state- 
 ments tliat postmen at certain to-rnis deliver surplus parcels as best they 
 can or leave them over until the next delivery, or deviate from their ordi- 
 nary route to dispose of heavy parcels, thus causing irregularity of service, 
 with the result that it has been ascertained at the special towns selected at 
 random that tliere is no foundation for the statements. One of the ques- 
 tions which every surveying officer on making the periodical survey of an 
 oflSce has to answer is — "Are the deliveries of letters and parcels com- 
 bined, and is any delay caused thereby to letters or parcels?" 
 
 Q. Do you generally get complaints that the letter delivery is em- 
 barrassed and made difficult by the number of parcels that the postmen, and 
 particularly the rural postmen, have to carry out? 
 
 A. I should say not. I do not see the rural postmen so often, but I 
 should say not as regards the toMTi postmen. 
 
 Q. Then you think that the demand made to us by some of them that 
 there should be a separate delivery in all cases of parcels is not one that 
 can be sustained? 
 
 A. Certainly not ; it would involve a very large expense. Some of the 
 men seem to be ashamed to carry parcels, but I think that if they are they 
 had better seek some other employment. 
 
 Q. And now you will, perhaps, deal with the wages of rural postmen? 
 
 A. The minimum of the scale for a rural postman is generally fixed at 
 the same amount as that for the postmen employed in the town from which 
 the rural postman starts. Thus, if the town scale is 17s. Is. 26s., the rural 
 scale would be 17s. Is. 21s., or 17s. Is. 22s. ; if the town scale is 16s. Is. 
 22s., the rural scale is 16s. Is. 20s. This rule is not always, however, 
 observed. But inquiries on the subject are now being made, and it is in 
 contemplation to level up where a lower minimimi has been given by inad- 
 vertence to a rural postman. In considering the question of the wages of 
 rural postmen it should not be overlooked that these men have received 
 a very substantial increase of pay, amounting in many cases to 4s. or 5s. 
 a week, or as much as 25 or 30 per cent, on their former wages, at the 
 maximum, under the general revision of 1891. 
 
 (1) The chief reason for paying rural postmen on a lower scale than the 
 town postmen, thougli both may live in the same town and pay the same 
 rent is, no doubt, that the rural men are actually emploj^ed for fewer 
 hours in the day. 
 
 (2) Having also, as a rule, an unbroken interval of several hours between 
 delivery and collection, they have opportunities of earning money in other 
 ways. 
 
 (3) Tlaey are supposed to obtain perquisites of one kind or another. 
 
 (4) Moreover, the volume of their work is less, and it is not performed 
 uiider such pressure as that of the town postmen. 
 
 The arguments for raising their scale are: — 
 
 (1) That their work involves more responsibility than that of the town 
 po.stmen, since they are not under direct supervision. 
 
 (2) That it requires in some respects greater knowledge of details, for 
 they have to register letters, weigli parcels, sell stamps, etc. 
 
 (3) That the men ai'e put to greater expense, and are subjected to greater 
 hardship through exposure on account of having to remain away from home 
 all day. 
 
 Ip. view of all these considerations I think that--^
 
 Rural Postmen's Wag-es. 585 
 
 (1) Rural postmen starting from a town (head office or sub-office) where 
 there are town postmen on scale, should be placed upon the same scale as 
 the town postmen. 
 
 (2) That the scales for rural postmen startuig from the smaller towns 
 and villages, where there are no town postmen on scale, should be raised so 
 as to preserve approximately the same proportion as at present to the 
 postmen included in Class I. 
 
 Class I. includes about 4,600 rural postmen, and the expense of raising 
 the scale as suggested would amount at the arithmetical mean to about 
 £19,000 a year. The true mean would, however, be considerably higher 
 than this. Class II. includes about 1,900 rural postmen, and the cost of 
 raising the scales as suggested, calculated at the arithmetical mean, would 
 be about £8.000 a year. 
 
 The Chairman : As regards your first point, you must set the fact that 
 the rural postmen often find themselves set down at some place far from 
 their home, in the middle of the day, with 3 or 4 hours that he has no 
 possible use for. 
 
 A. I quite accept that view. 
 
 Q. Then it is not very much good putting forward the point you were 
 mentioning ? 
 
 A. No, I don't think it is. The consideration is that a rural postman as 
 a rule has an unbroken interval of several hours, which affords him an 
 opportunity of earning money in other ways. 
 
 Q. Your second point as to theii' other opportunities of earning money 
 ■\vould be true if they were generally to be found in their own home during 
 these hours. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I presume that in the rural districts there are a great many 
 cases of men who get employment at the end of their walk? 
 
 A. Yes ; undoubtedly they earn something on a farm or in a cobbler's 
 shop. 
 
 The Chairman : We have not had such cases given to us ? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There was the man who was employed in a linen weaving 
 factory. 
 
 The Chairman : Not at the present moment. He said it was 10 years 
 since he had done that work. 
 
 Witness : I don't think they would be given. There was the case of 
 one witness^ — Grimmer, I thinlc — who said he was a tailor and worked as 
 such. 
 
 The Chairman : No ; he told us that he had ceased for some years to 
 do tailoring ; he o.nly put forward the fact of his bemg a tailor in order 
 to show that he was a. man who could give us reliable information about 
 uniforms and clothing. What you have suggested may possibly be common, 
 but it has not been brought before us in evidence to any extent. But I 
 had better ask you the question — Do you know, as a matter of fact, that 
 a great many rural postmen find other employment at the end of their 
 walk? 
 
 A. I believe that to be the case. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is not that the experience of officers of our Department 
 who have been out inspecting these walks as surveyors, etc. ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I believe it is. 
 
 Q. Are they not unanimous in saying it is the case? 
 
 A. I never knew people mianimous on any question. There is this to be 
 borne in mind, that if a man has walked 16 miles in a day and carried 
 parcels with him, he has done enough work, and if he works at the end of 
 his walk at anything except sedentary work, he is doing what is not de- 
 sirable for his health. 
 
 Q. And perhaps not desirable for the office, as he may not be so well 
 able to walk the 8 miles back? 
 
 A. I am sure that the ordinary 16 miles' walk with the weights they 
 carry is enough. Many of them have told me that, and I believe it to be
 
 ^86 Mr. E. B. Lewin'Hill. 
 
 true. Another point — the third on my list — is that tliese rural pogtnien 
 are suppnaed to obtain perijuisites of one kind or another. 
 
 Tlie Cliairnian : What iM3n|iiisites do they obtain? We know about the 
 Christmas boxe.s, but what otlier peri|uiHilL"S are tiiere? 
 
 A. Well, I think tlie S(iuire often gives them a dinner, or lets tliem dine 
 witli the servants ; but tlicre are not, pi-rhaps, so many squires who do 
 that sort of tiling now. 
 
 Q. Surely that is not a question you arc going to put forward as a thing 
 to be considered by the Department witli regard to tliese mens pay? 
 
 A. Well. 1 think it is ])Lrliaps one of tlie (luestions which are regarded 
 as some justiiicatiou for liaving in the jiast given them rather less ; more- 
 over, the volume of their work is less, and it is not performed under such 
 pressure as that of the tf)wii ])ostmen. The number of hours they are 
 actually at work is less. The arguments for raising their scales are, first, 
 that their work involves more responsibility than that of the town postmen 
 since they are not under direct supervision. 
 
 The Chairman : What rules have you for the transfer of rural jjostmen to 
 town situations? 
 
 A. Prior to 1891 rural postmen were nominated by the Treasury, and 
 the nomination for town postmen vested in tlie Postmaster. Naturally 
 the Postmasters preferred to nominate telegraph messengers and others who 
 had some claim on the Department, and who would otherwise have been left 
 improvided for ; so that it would .seldom happen that a rural postman suc- 
 ceeded in obtiiining a place on the town estiblishment. Now, however, 
 that rural postmen enter the Service under the same conditions as town 
 postmen, the claim of any rural postman wlio M'ishes to be transferred to 
 the town establishment is duly considered. As a matter of fact, a rural 
 postman who is in other wavs suitable v ould be considered to have a claim 
 prior to that of a telegrapli messenger or auxiliary, if he applied for a 
 vac;vncy on the town establislimcnt. Such applications have not. up to 
 the present, been very numerous, ;uid many rural postmen, especially after 
 th^y have been on a walk for some years, are disinclined to change their oc- 
 cupation. Some men. indeed, express a preference for rural duties. But it 
 seems likely that more rural postmen would apply, at any rate in the earlier 
 years of their service, for ti-ansfer to the town class, if they were aware that 
 their applications would be likely under the existing conditions to be fav- 
 ourably entertained. 
 
 The Chairman: Do you find these men good material for town postmen? 
 A. I think the general experience is that after a man has acted for some 
 years as a rural postman he is better fitted for a rural than a town ap- 
 jxtintment. 
 Q. I am speaking of a man in the earlier years of his service? 
 A. Then I think he is just as good. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Is the rule that a rural postman has a prior claim 
 to a telegi'aph messenger or auxUiary universally Imown ? 
 
 A. Well, it is known in the London Office, and we act upon it, but 
 whether Postmasters generally do I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Have they not been instructed to observe it in any way? 
 A. I am not able to say. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I do not quite understand the last answer. It seems of 
 considerable importance. As a matter of fact, you say that a rural postman, 
 if he is in other wuys suitable, is considered to have a prior claim over 
 telegraph messengers and auxiliaries for vacancies on the town establish- 
 ment. Do I understand you to mean that if a man just outside London 
 applied for an established postman's place within the London District, his 
 claim Avoukl be considered before that of a telegraph messenger in the 
 London District? 
 
 A. No ; I am speaking of rural postmen. They are not the same as 
 provincial postmen. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : You do not speak for London ?
 
 Hours of Rural Postmen — Weight on Delivery — Length of Walk. 587 
 
 A. When I speak of London I do not mean it in the sense of the London 
 Postal Service — I refer to tlie Secretary's Office. 
 
 The Chairman : No\r, what are the average hours of duty for rural post- 
 men? 
 
 A. The liours of duty are necessarily spread over a long period in order 
 to afford the public in rural districts a delivery of letter-s as early as pos- 
 sible, 'and a reasonably late collection. A postman who is kept away from 
 the head office on official duty for 12 hours daily is regarded as doing a 
 full day's work. As far as possible, the time spent by each man in actual 
 walking is restricted to 6 hour.s a day. To restrict, however, the rural 
 postman's duty to 12 hours would mean a serious curtailment of the ac- 
 commodation now afforded in remote districts, and would lead to complaint ; 
 the public, moreover, would not consent to make a payment for tlie main- 
 tenance of the existing hours of collection, as suggested by one witness. 
 Efforts have from time to time been made to bring the men back to their 
 head offices by 7 p.m. The proportion of cases in which postmen return 
 as late as 8 p.m. is not large. 
 
 The Chairman : What is the average pace a rural postman walks? 
 
 A. About 2| or 3 miles an hour? 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : That is not the actual pace he walks, but the amount of 
 gi'ound he covers, including going up to the houses, is it not? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not 2| miles? 
 
 Mr. Seton : My experience is that it is 2| miles. 
 
 A. Well, I will say 2| miles. With regard to the matter of the pace at 
 which the postman goes, of course it includes stoppages at houses to 
 deliver parcels, etc., and it may be to get a receipt for a registered letter. 
 
 The Chairman : Now, we have had some complaint as to the weight 
 carried by these men. Have you anything to say as to that? 
 
 A. The precise maxinmm of weight m a particular case should, it is 
 thought, depend upon the distance walked before the postman gets rid of 
 any considerable portion of his load. A man should not, say, be required 
 to carrv 35 lbs. beyond 2 miles, or more than 30 lljs. bevond 5 miles. Per- 
 haps the best plan would be to give a discretion to tlie surveyors to fix 
 the maximum at the starting point somewhere between 28 lbs. and 35 lbs., 
 according to the distance to be travelled before the load is materially re- 
 duced. 
 
 The Chairman : What rules have you with regard to giving assistance 
 to men with heavy loads? 
 
 A. If a rural postman at the start has more than 35 lbs. to carry he is 
 entitled to assistance, but, of course, it is not always possible to provide 
 it, as the man goes out at 6 in the morning? 
 
 Q. Does the Postmaster get the assistance or the man himself? 
 
 A. I think either the Postmaster himself or the officer in charge at the 
 office. 
 
 Q. I understood one witness to say that a man could get assistance for 
 hmiself ? 
 
 A. That is on the return journey only, I think. 
 
 Q. Following that up we have a good many complaints about the length 
 of the rural postmen's walks? 
 
 A. Yes. The maximum distance for a rural postman's official journey on 
 foot is 18 miles, but in the great majority of cases the distance actually 
 walked falls considerably short of 18 miles. 
 
 Q. Would you say that in no case now in the United Kingdom is the 18 
 miles exceeded? 
 
 A. I do not think I could say that, because I found out on examining 
 into some particular complaints that a man was walking 19 or 20 miles. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Again, do you mean 19 or 20 miles of road, excluding 
 the distance up to the house? 
 
 A. No ; we allow for that. If a postman has to go a hundred yards to 
 a house that is set back — it is taken into account.
 
 588 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: We should not, except by inadvertence or error, approve 
 of a man's walk exceeding 18 miles? 
 
 A. Certainly not. 
 
 Q. When a new walk is submitted for approval, is it not usual for the 
 surveyor's clerk or some one to walk it with the postman? 
 
 A. Yes. Many men walking less than the maximum distance receive an 
 allowance for horse-keep, or arc otherwise relieved if their loads are suffi- 
 ciently he^ivy. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: What do you mean by sufficiently heavy? You have a 
 rule it should not exceed 35 lbs. ? 
 
 A. Yes ; tliat is the rule. The nuui's load at the start must not exceed 
 35 lbs. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But when the Parcel Post was instituted was there not a 
 rule issued that the maximum weight should not exceed 35 lbs., according 
 to the distance walked? 
 
 A. Yes. Comparatively little difficulty h;is been experienced in finding 
 postmen willing to supiily themselves with a horse and cart on receiving 
 an allowance for the purpose. Tlie allowance, which varies according to 
 circumskuices from 12s. to 20s. a week, is held to cover not only cost of 
 provender, stabling, shoeing, and veterinary attendance, but a small sum 
 towards replacement of capital. No postman is compelled to provide a horse 
 and cart, but a refusal may involve removal to another walk, if it is ne- 
 cessary that the post should be made a mounted post. The suggestion 
 made by one witness that a portion of the allowance for horse-keep should 
 be retained by the Department as a reserve fund for the postman to draw 
 upon in case of special outlay seems a good one, Itut the sum which the 
 witness named — Is. a week — would perhaps be scarcely large enough for 
 the purpose. 
 
 The Chairman: Do you encourage the use of bicycles? 
 
 A. In some cases where a load is greater than a walking postman should 
 carry, or where an appreciable acceleration can be secured, the Depart- 
 ment has granted rural postmen an allowance for providing and maintain- 
 ing a cycle. The route in such cases must lie along roads in good condition, 
 and there can be no taking of short cuts across fields, etc. Tlie results ob- 
 tainable from the use of cycles vary greatly, and many of the experiments 
 made in the past have been disappointing. Quite apart from any benefit 
 to the Service, a. number of rural postmen who are in possession of a cycle 
 and accustomed to ride it obtain permission to do so, so long as irregularity 
 is avoided. 
 
 Q. What amount is granted? 
 
 A. 4s. a week, I think. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There are verv few cases in which it is granted, are there 
 not? 
 
 A. There are under 100 cases. 
 
 Q. Tlie rule now is that where a postman wishes to ride a cycle per- 
 mission to do so is not to be refused arbitrarily. He is not to do it without 
 the permission of the surveyor, but it is not to be arbitrarily refused. Is 
 that not so? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And the same applies to where a rural postman has a horse and cart 
 and wishes to use it? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Cliairman : We had a good deal about the difliculty experienced by 
 rural postmen in obtaining shelter at the end of their walks.' Have you 
 ever endeavoured to meet that difliculty? 
 
 A. In many places rural postmen find no difficulty in obtaining shelter 
 at the end of their walk. Some render slight services — gardening, etc. — in 
 part payment. Others follow their trade as shoemakers, etc.. and can thus 
 afford to rent a room. If a payment of Id. wei-e made, as suggested by a 
 witness, for each hour the postman spends at the end of his" walk, some
 
 Shelters for Rural Postmen, or an Allowance in Lieu thereof. 589 
 
 would receive as much as 4s. a week, which is more than they need. The 
 Department thinks that tlie wages should be fixed to cover any outlay for 
 this purpose. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Can that be so? The 4s. a week would represent 48 hours, 
 and that is 8 hours a day for six days a week. It implies that a man 
 would stay at the end of his walk 8 hours. Is that possible? 
 
 A. I think it is possible but not usual. A man may get to the end of his 
 walk by 9 in the morning and leave at 5 p.m. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you ever considered the proposal that the Post 
 Office itself should erect shelters imder certain circumstances? 
 
 A. A few shelters have been erected, but it is not general. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us M'hether in the case of the shelters that have been 
 erected they have given satisfaction? Have the men approved of the ar- 
 rangement? 
 
 A. That hardly comes within my province. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Perhaps I might afford the Committee some information 
 on tliat point. I put a shelter up myself at an expense of about £13, and 
 that seems to have suited for a long time. 
 
 A. I am told that there are not above half-a-dozen provided by the De- 
 partment. 
 
 The Chairman : I tbink the request came from one of the Irish witnesses ; 
 it was suggested that it would be a great convenience to rural postmen if 
 the practice were adopted of paying their wages on Friday? 
 
 A. There is no objection to paying the rural postmen on Friday instead of 
 Saturday, if they are willing to accept payment for live days instead of 
 six on the first occasion. Indeed, this arrangement has already been 
 carried out, at the request of the men, in the case of the town postmen at 
 Bury and elsewhere. To advance the piiy for the holidays would not, it is 
 thought, be desirable, since it would in many cases lead to the men getting 
 into debt. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : Do you know on what ground that argument is founded? 
 It seems to me that instead of an advance of pay for the holidays leading 
 a man into debt, it would rather help to keep him out of it. 
 
 A. I suppose it me^ns that if a man had his money in advance he would 
 spend the whole of it and get into debt the other end, as well as be short 
 of cash when he came back. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: I think it would be more likely to be the case that he 
 would get into debt because the money was not advanced to him. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : What Mr. Hill means, I take it, is that a man would 
 spend all his money on a holiday, and when he came back would be with- 
 out cash, and would have none to receive. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : But what is a man to do on his holiday if he has no 
 money ? 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : It is presumed he has saved money for his holiday. 
 
 The Chairman : When the practice of allowing postmen to carry private 
 parcels was done away with did you give compensation? 
 
 A. The Treasury sanctioned the payment of a sum equal to two-thirds 
 of the men's earnings from the carrying of private parcels, and, moreover, 
 allowed the sums to count towards pension. If the men did not send in 
 returns, or sent in inaccurate returns, they have only themselves to blame. 
 It would be impossible to verify amended claims if they were now fur- 
 nished. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Do you suggest that the average given to each individual 
 man represented two-thirds of the sum he himself said he had earned? 
 
 A. Yes, what he himself said he had earned. That is to say, if we 
 were satisfied his statement was accurate. 
 
 Q. Then nobody could have been injured by a false return being sent 
 in except the people who actually sent such a return in? 
 
 A. Quite so ; a man would not have injured his fellows by reducing the 
 average. I think, • according to my recollection, each man was called upon
 
 590 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 to state what he had earned, but the reason for putting the aueation to him 
 
 was not given, and so he took it into his head tliat lie had better say aJ 
 little as possible. 
 
 The Uhairinan : We have been talking about the estabiislied rural post- 
 men ; I should like you now to tell us what is the position of the aux- 
 iliary rural postman? 
 
 A. Before 1 answer that I liave something to say in reply to question 
 9,933, in which a suggestion was made for a weekly half-holiday. This 
 suggestion for a weekly half-holiday for rural postmen could only be acted 
 on if the residents on the posts expressed their willingnes-s to have their 
 letters ready for the post some hours earlier on that day. Saturday would 
 l>e a bad day for curtailing posting facilities in cases where there is no 
 Sunday post, and in many cases the residents in rural districts would 
 suffer more inconvenience than town residents by the holiday given to town 
 postmen. 
 
 The Chau-man : I think I asked you questions on this subject last Mon- 
 day, and we had quite a discussion on it? 
 
 A. We have thought the matter over since then, and have felt it to lie 
 desirable tliat I should make this additional statement on the subject. 
 
 The Chairman : And now let us get to the case of the auxiliary rural post- 
 men. 
 
 A. Certainly. Auxiliary rural postmen are the servants of the Depart- 
 ment, not of the Postmasters at the offices to which they are attached, 
 and they cannot be dismissed by the Postmaster witliout authority from his 
 surveyor. 
 
 The Chairman : Who appoints them ? 
 
 A. The Postmaster. 
 
 Q. The local Postmaster? 
 
 A. Yes ; he nominates them, and he has to get the approval of the sur- 
 veyor for the nomination. Postmasters or sub-postmasters have, of course, 
 no claim on the free services of an auxiliary in their private business, and 
 this is generally understood throughout tlie Service. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : That is rather weakly put. Is it not the fact that it is 
 the rule throughout the Service? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is the rule. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : And the Postmaster cannot pay the auxiliary rural post- 
 man out of the official allowance for doing the Postmaster's private work? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : You do not say it is not the practice sometimes ? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But if we discovered any case where a Postmaster was so 
 employing an auxiliary we should drop upon that Postmaster, should 
 we not? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Have you discovered any such cases ? 
 
 A. I am told that several such cases have come to the knowledge of the 
 Department. 
 
 Q. And when they do, I suppose you always take measures to put a stop 
 to the practice? -^ 
 
 A. Certainly. Persons employed under allowances to sub-postmasters are 
 the servants of the sub-postmasters, but the Department takes steps to 
 prevent sub-postmasters taking advantage of their position. In the case 
 of allowances of 5s. and upwards in England, Wales, and Scotland, and of 
 allowances of 3s. 6d. and upwards in Ireland, the regulations are that the 
 person employed by the sub-postmaster shall be paid the full allowance, 
 shall himself sign the receipt for the allowance week by week, and shall 
 not be superseded without the surveyor's authority. In the case of smaller 
 allowances it is not practicable to enforce the same conditions, but steps 
 are taken to ensure that the persons actually employed understand what 
 they are entitled to receive, and that they do actually receive it. Annexed is
 
 Rural Auxiliaries. 591 
 
 a specimen of the Form 114, to be signed both by the sub-postmaster and 
 by the person to whom the allowance is paid. 
 
 (Form put in.) 
 
 The Chairman : These men do get uniform ? 
 
 A. Yes ; in all cases the persons termed auxiliary postmen do. 
 
 Q. Even a man not getting so much as 5s. ? 
 
 A. No ; these are duties provided for by allowances to sub-postmasters. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : With reference to the memorandum you have just read, 
 that rule does not apply to what Ave call auxiliary postmen, does it? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 y. It applies only to persons employed under an allowance? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : We draw a broad distinction there ; Mr. Hill's answer 
 does not apply to these men. 
 
 The Chairman : I want to ask you this — In the case of men with an al- 
 lowance of 5s. and upwards in England, and 3s. 6d. upwards in Ireland, do 
 the men wear uniform? 
 
 A. No ; tliey have a badge or stripe on tiie arm to show that they are 
 in our Service. 
 
 Q. I do not understand quite even now about these auxiliaries. I want 
 to know exactly how the rural auxiliaries are appointed? 
 
 A. Persons termed rural auxiliaries are nominated by Postmasters or sub- 
 postmasters, v.iio have to get the approval of the surveyor. 
 
 The Chairman: Are they included in your list of auxiliaries, these men? 
 
 A. Yes ; those described in the first paragraph are. They have the title 
 "rural auxiliaries." and they get a uniform. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not tlie case there is a broad distinction between 
 them and the auxiliary postmen who are the servants of the Department? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Then the persons employed under an allowance are the servants of the 
 Postmaster, are they not? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so. 
 
 Q. But wlien an allowance gets so much as 7s. a week we insist on his 
 being an auxiliary? 
 
 A. Yes ; that is the case. 
 
 The Chau-man : Then at what rate do you pay the auxiliary j^roper? 
 
 A. The men have asked to be paid 6d. per hour, but we have not con- 
 sidered it necessary to fix so high a rate of pay as 6d. an hour for auxiliary 
 work in rural districts. Indeed, this rate is found to be sufficient even in 
 London for work performed in the day-time. In the country there is rarely 
 any difficulty — except in raining districts, etc. — in obtaining suitable per- 
 sons for the present rates, i.e., from 4d. to 5d. an hour. If, owing to the 
 high rate of wages prevalent in tlie district, difficulty is found in pro- 
 viding suitable persons at the ordinary rate, the allowance is suitably 
 raised. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: Your present rate is 5d., you say? 
 
 A. It comes to this : if the surveyor says he cannot get men to do the 
 duty under a certain sum, we have to pay that sum, be it 5d. or lOd. an 
 hour. 
 
 The Chairman: Have you known of any case where lOd. has been de- 
 manded or paid? 
 
 A. Xo ; but the pay is much more in a district where trade is very good, 
 and we have to pay whatever is demanded in order to get the men. It 
 is the practice of the Department whenever possible to amalgamate auxiliary 
 duties, and thus form full duties. This practice involves slightly greater 
 expense, but the evils of auxiliary labour, and the increased risk of in- 
 efficiency and dishonesty arising therefrom, are held to justify the increased 
 cost. That there arc still so many auxiliary duties which cannot be amal- 
 gamated is due to the fact that the bulk of the work of delivering letters 
 is necessarily performed in the early morning. The supply of uniform
 
 592 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 clothing is renewed at longer intervals than is the case -with f aU-time men 
 since the auxiliaries are onlv employed officially for a portion of the day. 
 It is not, of course, desirable that auxiliaries should wear their uniform 
 whilst engaged on their private occupation. 
 
 The Chairman : Do they only get one suit of imiforni a year, or some- 
 thing of that sort? 
 
 A. 'i'hoy get it less frequently than other postmen ; I think it is about 
 one suit a year. It would 1)3 against the general principles regulating em- 
 ployment in the Civil Service to gi-ant holidaj's, sick pay, or pension, to 
 persons givmg only a portion of their time to the public service. Nor is 
 it considered desii'able to give boot allowances or stripes to such persons. 
 
 Q. I imderstood you to say in your evidence the other day that j'ou 
 thought stripes might be given to auxiliaries under certain conditions, and 
 that the value of a strijDe might he made commensurate with the amount 
 of duty a man did? 
 
 A. I think that was Mr. Badcock's evidence, but still I agree with it. 
 
 The Chairman : We will now adjourn for a little while. 
 
 Upon I'esummg, the evidence was contmued : — 
 
 Q. You have no supernumeraries amongst the rural provincial class, 
 have you? 
 
 A. No persons bearing that name ; but we have some not estal)lished, 
 and not entitled to pensions because they cannot pass the doctor or for 
 some other reason. 
 
 Q. Have you many of these? 
 
 A. No ; one here and there. They are chiefly persons wlio, when they 
 first began with us, were not doing a full day's work; but the du ies increased 
 until i became a full day's work; but by that time, however, they were loo 
 old to be put upon the establishment, so we give them fixed wages and a 
 holiday, and do the best we can for them. 
 
 Q. I believe you have now a statement to make uix)n the subject of super- 
 numeraries ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I wish to say something on that. The supernumerary postmen 
 have comiilained before the Committee on Post Office Establishments that 
 they have to choose their walks and periods of annual leave after all tlie 
 established postmen of the class or zone to which they are attached, no 
 matter how short the service of some of these may be. There are now 
 in London 188 supernumeraries, who block a corresponding number of 
 vacancies on the establishment, thus : — 
 
 Employed as sorters, 11 
 
 Employed as porters, 42 
 
 Employed as town postmen, - - - - 92 
 
 Employed as Zone 1 postmen, - - - - 6 
 
 Employed as Zone 2 postmen, - - - - 29 
 
 Employed as Zone 3 jjostmen, - - - - 8 
 
 Total, - - - - 188 
 
 The supernumeraries are a diminishing class, and as vacancies occur in 
 their ranks they are filled by the appointment of established officers. It is 
 obvious, therefore, that if the supernumeraries are to continue to choose theh* 
 duties and annual leave after the established men, their circumstances in 
 this resjiect will tend to get worse rather than better as time goes on. In 
 two or three offices where the number of supernumeraries is considerable they 
 are allowed to sign for annual leave on a separate list. This arrangement 
 is no doubt sati-sfactory to the men who share in it, but it could hirdly 
 be maintained if the number of supeniiimcraries were much reduced ; and, 
 moreover, it provokes unfavourable comparisons from the supernumeraries 
 in other offices who have to sign after the established men because they are 
 not suflTicientlv numerous to have a leave list of their own. It would be
 
 Supernumeraries — The " Windsor Case." 593 
 
 better, I submit, to establish soine practice which should be not only fair to 
 the supernumeraries but uniform in its application. We have proceeded 
 hitherto on the assumption that an established officer, as such, should take 
 precedence of any unestablislied officer, and I do not recommend that the 
 privileges of men already on the establiSliment should be interfered with. 
 The superuumei'aries, however, are mci of considerable service, and I do not 
 think any one need feel aggrieved if it were decided to let them rank — as 
 regards choic-3 of duties and aimual leave — before all future entrauts on the 
 classes to which they are attached. I recomiiiend this course for the Secre- 
 tary's approval, and, if it be adopted, I propose that it shall apply to all 
 the S-upernumera ies, whatever their present arrangements may be. 
 
 The Chairman : JN^ow you have to say somethmg as to the Windsor case ? 
 
 A. Yes. With regard to the Windsor case, the district surveyor, Mr, 
 Rush ton, reports as follows: — "I visited Windsor to-day, and made per- 
 sonal inquhy into the statement made before the Conunittee that the post- 
 men at Windsor were suffering from a sort of petty intimidation through 
 being watched about in consequence of evidence offered before the Committee. 
 Tlie postman concerned is W. J. Kiley, and 1 questioned him as to the 
 facts. He expressed surprise that it should be supposed that he or any of 
 the men were complaining of being vatched about. He said that tliere was 
 no intention of maldng any complaint as to the testing of the duties of 
 the rural postmen, and, moreover, that it was quite understood that the 
 recent tests of the rural posts were made for ordinary reasons. As a matter 
 of fact, they were undertaken chieHy with a view of ascertaining whether 
 tJie nien needed any relief. RUey did think, however, that in accusing 
 him of interfering with the test of two rural postmen on one occasion and 
 in what followed, the inspector of postmen was influenced by the fact that 
 he had furnished evidence to be put before the Committee. Upon my 
 pointing out to Riley that, although there was no proof that he had warned 
 the men, there was good ground for the inspector's suspecting him of doing 
 so he readily admitted that his o'n-n impression was no doubt a wrong one, 
 and that the view taken by the inspector was a very natural one. Riley 
 added that he was quite ready to withdraw the suggestion. The only other 
 reason Riley had for supposing that he was being harshly treated Tras a small 
 incident that occurred on the 22ad February last. On this occasion Riley 
 was preparing to start on a parc-il delivery. The two other postmen en- 
 gaged on this delivery had already sta/ted, and the Postmaster, who was 
 in the sorting office, said to the senior clerk on duty, " See that man out 
 of tlie office." Riley regarded this as indicating a harsh feeling, but the 
 matter is, on the face of it, very trifling. Riley admits this, and says he 
 did not himself propose to allude to it, but the local Federation Committee 
 thought it better to do so. The Postmaster of Windsor is on leave, but 
 it may be safely assumed that the words showed nothing but a wish to start 
 the delivery in good time. I am quite satisfied from my inquiry to-day, 
 and from the inquiry made on the 2Ist instant by Mr. Griffith, one of my 
 assistants, that there is no ground wliatever for the statement that the men 
 have been subjected to petty tjTaimy because of the evidence given before the 
 Committee. Indeed, the chief clerk ar d inspector of postmen inform me that, 
 by direction of the Postmaster, they have be. n particularly careful to avoid 
 doing anything which could possibly give colour to such a suspicion." 
 
 Q. The first point I made a note of was with regard to the complaint 
 made at Liverpool on two or three di&'erent points ; they referred to diffi- 
 culties connected with some of the "\v^alks in Liverpool, and the weights 
 cjirried ? 
 
 A. To some extent Mr Walsh's evidence wa.s answered at the following 
 meeting, when we obtained a report from Liverpool? 
 
 Q. What is your view with regard to the sta*-ements as to excessive weights 
 carried in Liverpool ? 
 
 A. As shown in the re-examiaation of the witness Walsh, the statements 
 irade as regards tlie heavy weights carried by postmen at Liverpool and the
 
 594 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 injurious eflfects on certain postmen were mucli exaggerated. All reasonable 
 complaints on this score liave now been lemoved by the use of a lift indoors, 
 and band-carts out of doors, and a periodical check of the weights curried 
 on the heavy walks has been established in the Liverpool District. The 
 surveyor leports that the postmen everywhere show a reluctance to ask 
 for assistance, the reason being, he is informed, that they think it would 
 affect their Christmas boxes. A rule will be inserted in the revised edition 
 of the Book of Rules for To^^n Postmen to the effect that any postman 
 who thinks that he is overburdened may apply to the controlling officer for 
 assistance. 
 
 Q. A difficulty arises in Liverpool in consequence of the arrival of the 
 American mails? 
 
 A. When an American mail falls into the morning delivery the extra work 
 is not much felt by the men ; what they complain of is that when a heavy 
 American mail is included in one of the afternoon deliveries it causes their 
 attendance on that particular day to be prolonged beyond 8 hours. This 
 prolongation, however, rarely exceeds an hour, and is to some extent com- 
 pensated by light deliveries on other days. 
 
 Q. Following up that same point with regard to the Liverpool practice, 
 will you now go to the question where a point is raised about prolonged 
 deliveries ? 
 
 A. The surveyor report* that he cannot find it is the practice at Liverpool 
 to unduly prolong duties in disposing of circulars of halfpenny matter. When 
 large quantities of tradesmen's circulars are posted for local delivery the 
 inspectors ascertain by examination whether the circulars require immediate 
 delivery, and if so, arrangements are made either by overtime or by employ- 
 ing temporary force. If the delivery of circulars (such as Mother Siegel's) 
 is not regarded as urgent, the insjjectors arrange for a few to be taken out 
 at each delivery during the day ; on sTich occasions a postman does not 
 receive o\ertime pay, but the inspector is careful to arrange as far as possible 
 for the delivery to be completed Avithin usual limits. 
 
 Q. In another question we have evidence given with regard to split duties 
 at the Liverpool office. 
 
 A. At the southern district office on the date named, postman R. Abberley 
 served Xo. 14 walk, and the actual attendance as entered at Abberley in the 
 attendance sheet was : — 
 
 1st duty — 6 a.m. to 8-35 a.m., 
 2nd „ 10-15 a.m. to 12-50 p.m., 
 3rd ,, 2-45 p.m. to 5-20 p.m., 
 
 Time allowed for pouching, 
 
 Total, 8 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There is an evident mistake there in the man's evidence, for 
 he puts the second duty as ending at 1.50 instead of 12.50. 
 
 A. Yes. With regard to the case of Postman W. Roiirke, whose time 
 worked was given as 9 hrs. 35 min., I may say that on the date named, viz., 
 Nov. 30, 1895, the 7th walk in the Western District Office was served by 
 Postman Rourke and his attendance as sto.ted by himself was : — 
 
 5-57 a.m. to 9-15 a.m., ... ... ... 3 hrs. 18 min. 
 
 10-45 a.m. to 1-15 p.m., 2 ,, 30 ,, 
 
 2-45 p.m. to 6- 5 p.m., ... ... ... 3 ,, 20 ,, 
 
 (Usual time for finishing, 5 p.m.) 
 
 9 hrs. 8 min. 
 
 h. 
 
 m. 
 
 2 
 
 35 
 
 2 
 
 35 
 
 2 
 
 35 
 
 7 
 
 45 
 
 
 15
 
 The Liverpool Cases. 595 
 
 With regard to the statement that no time is allowed for pouching, no 
 time is necessary for pouching. The inspector of the Western District 
 rejjorts as follows: — "Postman W. Rourke, due on the 30th Nov. at 5.30 
 a.m., did not arrive before 5.57 a.m., 27 minutes late ; to some extent his 
 morning delivery was prolonged in consequence of his late attendance. The 
 work on that day appears to have been exceptionally heavy, but Saturday is 
 always a heavy day on his walk. In the morning we had an American mail, 
 and the fact that it was the last day of the month accounts also for some of 
 the extra pressure. Apart from all this, however, Rourke, who is 55 years 
 of age, is, in consequence of weak health, not anything like being smart in 
 the performance of his duties. A yoimger and a stronger man could, I am 
 satisfied, have completed the whole duty in about 8 hours. Tliere are four 
 men attached to the walk, each with a different attendance, and these four 
 men rotate weekly. The average attendance of the four during the week 
 ended Nov. 30 was, I find, S hrs. 2 min , and out of this time tlie man on B 
 duty had quite 45 min. each morning for breakfast, and the man on the D 
 duty had about 30 min. each afternoon for refreshments. In order to show 
 what the attendances of the men on this walk really are, I submit a return 
 giving each man's attendance during last week, and I do not think that it 
 can well be said that they are in any way unreasonable. The bags carried 
 by the men are not heavy. The return shows that the average attendance is 
 8 hrs. 2 min., including in the case of two men intervals of about 1 hr. and 
 of about 45 min. respectively, and the average covering period about 12 
 hrs. 10 min." 
 
 The Chairman: It has also been stated that a postman at Aberayon, 
 father of five children, gets 7s. per week for 48 hours' hard work, and that 
 a telegraphist at the same place gets 40s. for 48 hours' work. Do you know 
 about such a case? Is there any postman anywhere working 48 hours and 
 getting for it 7s. per week. 
 
 A. I don't believe it is a fact. Such a case is certainly not known in the 
 Secretary's office. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is possible that tliere could be such a case? 
 
 A. I cannot conceive it to be possible. 
 
 Q. Woul I it be possible tliat any of tliese men we have hoard of quasi- 
 auxiliaries employed by Postmasters could be doing anything like 48 hours' 
 work for 7s. ? 
 
 A. Certainly not. I don't believe a man would do anything like it. I 
 think the witness should have produced the precise case if he makes the 
 statement. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He did produce the case. 
 
 A. No ; he said it wis a hypothetical case. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It was afterwards put as a hypothetical case, and no proof 
 was offered. 
 
 The Chairman : In reply to my question the witness said that such cases 
 were known in Ireland, or were stated to be known in Ireland and other places 
 over the country, and were afterwards proved. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : You are not aware of such cases having been proved ? 
 
 A. Certainly not. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of such a case ever having been proved to exist? 
 
 A. Certainly not in my time in the Service. 
 
 The Chairman : You don't believe such a thing is possible — for that is the 
 real point I want to arrive at? 
 
 A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Then we come to a series of ca.ses quoted in connection with split duties. 
 The case quoted is one of Devouport, where it is alleged that a man works 
 8 hours and a half in four attendances, spread over rather more than 16 
 houH 1
 
 596 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 A. There are no such duties at Devonport ; the actual duties are as follows, 
 and are performed by 20 men, 10 on each, and rotating in alternate weeks : — 
 
 G- Gam. to 9- a.m. 6- a.m. to 9- a.m. 
 
 1-45 p.m. to 4- p.m. 1 1-15 a.m. to l-4o p.m. 
 
 7- p.m. to 10-15 p.m. 4-45 p.m. to 6-45 p.m. 
 
 (Including interval of half-hour). 
 
 Total, 8-30. Total, 7-30. 
 
 Average attendance, 8 hours. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I noticed that an inter\'al of half-an-hour is mentioned in 
 the first set of duties, as occurring between 7 and 10.15 p.m., but is not men- 
 tioned in the second case. Can you tell me whether the half-hour is included 
 in both cases? 
 
 A. I should think not in the second case. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : What has happened is that the witness has taken the first 
 two duties on the second rotation and added them to the third duty of the 
 first. 
 
 The Chairman : Then a somewhat similar case is quoted in Birmingham. 
 
 A. No such duty exists at Birmingham ; it was revised in December last, 
 the arraagement being only a temporary one. A general revision of the 
 postmen's duties at Birmingham is under consicleration, and in accordance 
 with the general practice endeavours will be m-ide to keep as many duties 
 as practicable within a covering period of 12 hrs. I should have stated that 
 at Devonport the duties are under revision. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : There is nothing in the duty at Devonport that we are not 
 prepared to stand by, is there? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 The Chairman : But a duty beginning at 6 a.m. and ending at 10.15 p.m. 
 is a little awkward, even although there are long intervals between. We 
 should if we can avoid it. 
 
 A. No such duty exists at Birmingham. 
 
 Q. Previous to the revision it was in existence, I suppose? 
 
 A. The arrangement was only a temporary one. 
 
 Q. Then there was such a duty? 
 
 A. Yes, I suppose so ; but a general revision at Birmingham is now being 
 considered, and in accordance with the general practice, an endeavour will 
 be made to keep as many duties as pos>-ible ^vitliin a covering period of 
 12 hours. 
 
 Q. Then there is a case from Lough mentioned, where it is alleged that 
 six attendances were worked, amounting to 8 hours and 35 minutes. 
 
 A. There are five established postmen at Lough with an average daily 
 attendance of 8 hours. The duty here referred to occupied 8 hrs. 15 min., 
 ircluding the interval between 10.20 and 10.30 a.m., and in ordinary course 
 it should have rotated with a short duty of 7 hrs. 15 min., but the man 
 performing the short duty was old and feeble, and his duty could not well 
 have been increased. He has now been pensioned, and arrangements will 
 be made to readjust these duties in a .=atii?fact .ry manner. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : I think the next question arises with regard to Staly- 
 bridge ? 
 
 A. That is coupled in my notes with Lark Lane, Liverpool, and it is 
 stated with regard to both that the duties were already under revision, and 
 the necessary relief has now been afforded. 
 
 Q. Then the circumstances prior to the revision were correctly represented 
 to us? 
 
 A. I dare say the duties were correctly stated, but the revision was in hand 
 before the witness came on. 
 
 Q. It is not contested that the duties which the -o^+aess specified were 
 such as he described previous to the revision ?
 
 The Southport Inspector. 597 
 
 A. They were prolonged, no doubt. 
 
 Q. There is a case from Lark Lane, Liverpool? 
 
 A. The answer is the same as in the case of Stalybridge, namely, that the 
 duties were already under revision, and the necessary relief has now been 
 afforded. 
 
 Q. It is only fair to the witness that we should know that he correctly 
 represented the matter up to the time of the revision. 
 
 A. I dare say he did ; I don't know to the contrary. 
 
 Q. There are two .points in connection with Hebburn R.S.O. and 
 Southport ? 
 
 A. With reference to the first, two postmen attend between 6.40 a.m. and 
 9 p.m., and two between 6.40 p.m. and 7.40 p.m. The duty is rota- 
 ting. A revision of the postmen's duties will shortly be taken up, and relief 
 will be afforded at once if necessary. Circulars are spread over several 
 deliveries. 
 
 Mr Walpole : Then, Mr. Hill, on your showing, a case is made out for 
 relief. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : It is an extraordinary length of time — 14 hours 20 
 minutes. It is stated that the men are often employed delivering circulars, 
 for which they receive no pay? 
 
 A. We deny that. 
 
 Q. Then reference is made by the same witness to a case in which it is 
 said men have to meet trains at the end of the delivery, and in consequence 
 of late despatches have to turn themselves into harriers in order tw be in 
 time for their bags at the station? 
 
 A. This presumably refers to rare occasions — mostly at the Christmas 
 season — when some of the morning mails arrive irregularly, and the post- 
 man concerned has to hurry to meet the train. The postmen's duties will 
 be revised very shortly. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Why has the postman to hurry to meet the train ? 
 
 A. It means that owing to the late arrival of the train on which a des- 
 I)atch of mails from the office depends, he has little time to get back for the 
 outgoing train. The interval between the arrival of the incoming train and 
 the departure of the outgoing mail may srmetiines be very short. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : One train having arrived too late, the men have to hurry 
 back to catch the outgoing train, which may start in time? 
 
 A. Yes ; or that may start in time. 
 
 Q. Another case follows with regard to Southport, where it is stated that 
 men have themselves paid cab fares in order to reach the office in time 
 with their collection. Here, again, it is a matter of time apparently? 
 
 A. The rule in force at Soutlaport is that when any postman has a heavy 
 delivery, and considers that he will not finish it in time to make a collection, 
 he should call the supervising officer's attention to the fact. If the latter 
 considers that relief is necessary the'collection is'provided for specially. Only 
 one instance is known of a man paying his own cab fare under the circum- 
 stances mentioned. He had an accident on delivery, and upset the arrange- 
 ment of his letters, and seriously delayed his return. Rather than have the 
 case reported, he elected to take a cab at his own expense to make his 
 collection. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In connection with that w.ill you refer to the case of 
 Southport where it is stated that the inspector considered it necessary to 
 make special provision for the delivery of large quantities of circulars, 
 but on presenting the claim the Postmaster refused to meet it, and the 
 inspector has been obliged to pay it out of his own pocket? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have an answer to that. It was not necessary to supply 
 assistance in delivering these circulars, and the inspector of postmen acted 
 wrongly in authorising assistance. Tiie cost was Is. 8d., and had relief 
 been necessary it could have been afforded for a fourth of that sum. The 
 Postmaster refused, under the circumstances, to allow the claim, but he 
 perhaps acted somewhiit injudiciously in doing so, as the expense had been 
 
 I
 
 598 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 incurred, though improperly. Tlie inspector and the three postmwi con- 
 cerned agreed among themselves to pay the amount Ijetween them. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt: There is, too, a complaint of auxiliaries at Cambridge 
 working seven attendances at 19s. per week? 
 
 A. These auxiliaries — four in number — perform during term time about 8 
 hours' work for 16s. a week as their proper duty, and one delivery a day 
 during vacation for 7s. a week. In addition to this they are allowed to 
 perform a collection at 3s., which is provided for under an allowance, mak- 
 ing their pay 19s. and 10s. a week respectively. This causes their attendance 
 during term' time to exceed 8 hours, and to average between 9 and 10 hours. 
 Their average weekly wages throughout the year are 14s. 6d. for an aver- 
 age daily attendance of 6 hrs. 30 min. The present men have been employed 
 on this duty for about 17 months, and those who are eligible f r estab- 
 lished appointments will bo placed on the established class under a jjeiieral 
 revision of the duties wliich will shortly 1>ake place, and which has been 
 under consideration for some months. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : At tlie term time in Cambridge the postal duties are much 
 heavier than at other times? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : These men then average from 9 to 10 hours a day ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They are paid extra under an allowance to tlie Postmaster 
 for at least a portion of their exti-a work? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. It is the usual arrangement? 
 
 A. Yes. There is a small allowance for the work to be done. The 
 Postmaster can employ whom he likes, and I suppose these men ask to be 
 employed and get the money. 
 
 Q. Would 16s. be the normal pay for an auxiliary working 8 hours at 
 a place like Cambridge? 
 
 A. I should it is low. The minimum of the scale for town postmen is 
 17s., so that it is Is. below the scale. 
 
 Q. It ought to be up to the minimum scale at least. 
 
 A. I think so. It is low. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : There is a complaint of unduly prolonged duties at Wind- 
 sor. The duties were given as follows: — 12 to 1.45. 6.15 to. 9.15, 6 to 8, 
 and 8.45 to 11, and the witness suggested it was difficult to know when 
 the man got his sleep? 
 
 A. The duties have increased since the last revision in 1893. These three 
 attendances referred to by witness averaged 6 hrs. 40 minutes each — wages 
 15s. a week, with alternate Sunday attendance. The attendances are at 
 present : — 
 
 (1) 6.15 to 9 a.m., 10.15 to 11 a.m.. 6 to 7.45 p.m., 8 to 9 p.m. ; 6 hours 
 5*3 minutes. 
 
 (2) 9 to 11.30 a.m., 6 to 7.45 p.m.. 9 to 10 p.m., 12 night to 1.45 a.m. ; 
 
 7 hours. 
 
 (3) 10 to 11.50 a.m., 6 to 8 p.m.. 9 to 10 p.m., 12 night to 1.45 a.m. ; 6 
 hours 35 minutes ; rotate average, 6 hours 40 m.inutes. 
 
 Intervals at night — (1) 9 hours 15 minutes ; (2) 7 hours 15 minutes ; (3) 
 
 8 hours 15 minutes. 
 
 Long inteiTdls during day — (1) 7 hours ; (2) 6 hours 30 minutes ; (3) 6 
 hours 10 minutes. 
 
 The men have not complained of their duties or pay. Under a revision 
 which is in progress these men, if eligible, will probably obtain established 
 appointments. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : 15s. a week is verv low pay for duties of that kind, is 
 it not ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think it is low. 
 
 Q. Please direct your attention now to the complaint that six men are 
 working an hour and a half on Sunday for nothing. Is there no fixed rata
 
 Reply to Typical Cases of Low Wages. 599 
 
 acknowledged by the Department for provincial auxiliaries, the same as 
 we have in London? 
 
 A. No, there is not. Six auxiliaries attend 1 hour 30 minutes every Sun- 
 day, and their wages are fixed to cover this attendance. This the men 
 quite understand when first engaged. They have begged that no alteration 
 be made in their attendance or wages. If they were taken of the Sunday 
 duty their pay would have to be reduced. Tlie auxiliaries who have Sun- 
 day duty are paid at a higher rate. 
 
 Mr Walpole : In fact, in this case we are apparently paying rather 
 liberally ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : Later on the witness ])ut in a list of provincial auxiliaries 
 doing full-tmie duties and receiving 24s. He remarks on one case that 
 18s. T^d. a week for a man 24 years of age is not an excessive wage. Have 
 you anything to say Avith regard to his typical cases of extremely low 
 wages ? ' 
 
 A. Yes. Tlie case of Llauelly refers to one man only. The duty occupies 
 5 hours 15 minutes, with no Sunday attendance. The question of raising 
 the wage or reducing the attendance is being considered. Two other auxil- 
 iaries are paid 14s. a week of about 5 hours 40 minutes' attendance, including 
 an alternate Sunday attendance of 3 hours. (2) Cosham (Hants) — The attend- 
 ance of the two men is 4 hours, and 4 hours 15 minutes respectively. Tlie 
 wages are low, and have now been increased. (3) Bala, R.S.O. — The attend- 
 ance is 2 hours 10 minutes on week days only. The wages have been 
 raised to 4s. 6d., the usual rate. (4) Basingstoke — A revision of these duties 
 was already in hand, and the question of placing these men on the establish- 
 ir.ent is already under consideration. Their wages and attendances are— 
 (1) 6 liours 50 minutes, 13s., raised now to 16s. ; (2) 9 hours, 19s. ; and (3) 
 7 hours 30 minutes, 16s. The auxiliaries have been allowed to perform 
 duties provided for sepantely by allowances to improve their pay, which 
 works out per hour as follows — (1) Sjd. ; (2) 4id. ; and (3) 3|d. (5) 
 Poitsmoutli — The question of affording relief was already under considera- 
 tion, and has since been given. (6) Galashiels — The postmen's foi'ce is 
 alreadj^ under revision. There is onh'' one auxiliary town postman. The 
 wages have been suitably increased. (7) Dunblane — The duties are rural 
 ones, occupying 6 hours in all, and the pay consists of 9s. regular wages 
 and 5s. allowance. The postman is rather old and a slow walker. The 
 question of forming these two attendances into a full-time duty is being 
 considered. (8) Bridgnorth — This is wrong. The attendance of this man 
 is 5 a.m. to 6.15 a.m. under an allowance of 2s. 6d. a week; 7.15 a.m. to 
 9 a.m., and two attendances" -during afternoon and evening, occupying in all 
 4 hours 30 minutes, wages 10s. ; total time 5 hours 45 minutes ; total pay, 
 12s. 6d. These have now been raised to 13s. 6d. 
 
 Q. What have you to say with reference to the cases of Worksop and 
 Ci edit on? 
 
 A. These are cases of postmen being alleged to be greatly overburdened 
 with parcels on delivery. The cases cited are notably those of Worksop, 
 Crediton, and Halku-k, and it has been ascertained tnat the men are not 
 overburdened at these places. 
 
 The Chairman : The witness complained that the men at Worksop had to 
 start on their afternoon walks loaded like packmen? 
 
 A. With regard to tliis the Postmaster at Worksop reports that the 
 average number of parcels per man is from 1 to 3 ; most of the parcels in 
 the morning are specially delivered, the total weight of letters and parcels per 
 man on the first delivery averages about 18 lbs., and less than that on the 
 afternoon delivery. A relief is given when the parcels are more than the 
 pcstman can reasonably carry. At Crediton in the first delivery the par- 
 cels are delivered by a special man and not with the letters. On the other 
 deliveries (three in number) they are delivered with the letters, and average 
 1 to 3 per man. On those deliveries the average number of letters, etc.,
 
 600 Mr/ E. B. Lewin HlLt. 
 
 per man is about 70. A revision of the duties took place in November last, 
 and it w&s then arranged for the parcels to be delivered separately. The 
 number of parcels delivered in the Crediton town district averages about 
 37 a dav, excluding Sundav, of wliich about 25 are delivered by the special 
 postman. In the case of Halkirk these rural postmen (two in number) u.se 
 ponies for their own convenience ; there is no necessity for them to do so. 
 Their walks are 15 and 16 miles respectively, week days only, but one of 
 these attends for a short time — about an hour — on alternate Sundays. Their 
 average weight carried is about 12 lbs. in winter and 23 lbs. in summer. 
 One of them gets rid of two-thirds of the load at a sub-office two miles from 
 Halkirk. When the weight exceeds 35 lbs. (which lias been the case 
 last year on only eight occasions on one post and three on the other) they 
 are allowed the same amount for carriage of excess weight as would have 
 been expended if an assistant were provided. They are both established 
 postmen, and complete their day's work by 2.40 p.m. and 3.45 p.m. res- 
 pectively. 
 
 The Chairman : A list of 20 offices was handed in, where it was alleged 
 that postmen must deliver surplus parcels the best way they can or leave 
 them over till next delivery, which the witness thought a very improper 
 method of disposing of them. Does that correctly describe the practice 
 anywhere? 
 
 A. We made inquiry at the following offices, which are among those 
 /;ientioned by the witness, viz., Holyhead, Lowestoft, Stafford, South 
 Shields, and Watford. Tliese were considered to be fair samples, and in no 
 case was the allegation found to be true. 
 
 Q. Is it a fact that at Formby parcels are delivered and collected together 
 with letters, without regard to weight, lialf a hundredweight being frequently 
 carried over 2 miles, two-thirds parcels ? 
 
 A. We are assured that there is no foundation for that statement. The 
 number of parcels delivered with letters is limited to a few of the lighter 
 and less bulky parcels. The statement that a postman is frequently re- 
 quired to carrj^ 56 lbs. over 2 miles is without foundation. 
 
 Q. What about the case of Hassocks? 
 
 A. The sub-postmaster of Hassocks did not consider that relief was 
 necessary, the weight being so little over 35 lbs., and he would have had 
 much difficulty in obtaining it at the early hour, viz., 6 a.m. The occasion 
 cited is the only one remembered when relief has been required on this 
 walk, which is 16^ miles, average weight carried between 20 and 30 lbs., 
 about half of which is left at a sub-office distant about 2^ miles from Has- 
 socks, the road to which is exceedingly good and fairly level. The Post- 
 master of Brighton reprimanded the sub-postmaster for not having pro- 
 vided in the first instance the assistance allowed in sucli cases, and he also 
 reprimanded the postman, as in consequence of his having refused to obey 
 the sub-postmaster's instructions isome parcels were delayed till about 
 mid-day. 
 
 Q. Then there is the case of Fakenham? 
 
 A. The rural postman, Huggins, is here referred to. He had already 
 applied for relief, and arrangements for affording it are being made for 
 givmg him an allowance for a horse and cart. 
 
 IVIr. Walpole : Then it is a fact that he walks 19^ miles daily. 
 
 A. I don't know ; but he had applied for relief before the Committee heard 
 of this case. 
 
 The Chau'man : Are you going to deal with the Brighton cases of alleged 
 favouritism? 
 
 A. No ; that will fall to Mr. Joyce. 
 
 Q. Or to the allegations that promotions are sometimes due to men having 
 relations in high positions in tlie Service? 
 
 A. Mr. Joyce will deal with that. 
 
 Q. A list was given us of examples of long walks by rural postmen? 
 
 A. Sixteen instances are quoted by the witness of rural postmen walking
 
 The Length of Rural Postmen's Walks. 601 
 
 20 miles a day, and 10 of postmen walking 19 miles a day, but in most 
 of these cases the length of the walk has l>een exaggerated. At Ludlow, 
 for example (No. 15 on the list), no postman walks over 17^ miles, and 
 at Louth (No. 14) no man walks more than 17f miles. At 
 Bicester, Dundee, Llanelly, Trowbridge, and Worthing, there are no rural 
 postmen walking the distance given by the witness. At Halifax (No. 23) a 
 postman with an official walk of 15 miles walks home during the day and 
 thus adds 7 miles to his walking distance. In one or two instances the 
 postmen referred to have at their own request received additional work, 
 involving a total walking distance exceeding 18 miles, for the sake of the 
 additional pay, but these arrangements will not Ije allowed to continue. 
 Several of the postmen whose cases seem to be referred to have been re- 
 lieved in some cuses months ago, on the recommendation of the district 
 surveyors. There remain a. few cases where, through the building of new 
 houses or through miscalculation of distance, postmen at places named by 
 the witness have walks of over 18 miles, and instructions have been issued 
 for their immediate relief. This would have been done before if the men 
 had complained through the ordinary channel. 
 
 Q. I understand that the object of the Department is that 16 miles should 
 be the rule of the day's walk, although it may in some instances be ex- 
 tended to 18 miles as a maximimi? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : I understand you that complaints have not been 
 made previously of these long walks. 
 
 A. If they had been they would have been rectified. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, complaints have not been made, but the cases 
 have been brought direct before this Committee? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt ; Extra distances have sometimes been given at the men'a 
 own request? ' 
 
 A. Yes. But they are no longer alloj^ed to take excessive additional 
 work simply becaus? they want to do it. f 
 
 The Chairman : I'lease refer now to %e question in which reference ia 
 made to the payment of 3d. or 4d an .j^our to auxiliaries for doing very 
 responsible work, as I understand 4d. per j.^^j, jg ^j^g minimum you give to 
 auxiliaries? 
 
 A. That is our rule, ^,7 ^ ^^Z^ ^°^^H one or two cases where it does not 
 work out quite to 4d-' "^^^g^^ ^ ^as .^^^. ^^^^^.^ ^^ -^^ ^^^ ^^^j^ j^ ^j^,^^ .^ 
 
 should be 4d. - a -e - • . V 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Thert ^^^s out at -> ^''^ inadvertently we are paying less ? 
 
 A. Yes; where it wo'iisfc of ex-'- little less. 
 
 Q. Then there is a - "'\mples of rural unestablished and aux- 
 
 iliary duties. Have you.^ c^arks to make with regard to these? 
 
 A. Yes ; but reverting f-.^^'^a moment to the previous question, I should 
 say that so low a rate as 4d. per hour is only given in the case of the 
 smaller deliveries, involving from 1 to 2^ hours' work per day ; when 
 the duty is as much as 3 hours the postman is paid at a higher rate 
 ranging up to 5d. an hour or sometimes more. Any cases in which men are 
 actually receiving less than 4d. an hour are no doubt due to the work having 
 grown in extent since the wages were fixed, but the surveyor's attention 
 has now been called to the matter. With regard to the examples of rural 
 unestablished and auxiliary duties, I may say that case No. 1 from Dudley 
 cannot be identified. With regard to case No. 2 from Exeter, this man is 
 the sub-postmaster. He has been employed on full duty for about 6 
 years only. His wages in 1890 were IBs. only, and they have recently been 
 raised to 19s. He has pay as sub-postmaster also. In case No. 3, Campden, 
 the hours of duty have been exaggerated. The man is old (64) and some- 
 what infirm, and takes longer than an able-bodied man would do. In case 
 No. 4 from the same place, the duties prescribed for this man occupy only 
 4 hours a day. Through a misunderstanding he has been doing 1 hour's
 
 602 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 duty which should belong to another postman. He has now been re- 
 lieved of this extra work. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In tlie case of No. 2 the man ia at once a postman and a, 
 sub-postmaster, and gets two separate pa\Tnents? 
 
 A. Yes ; that does occur occasionally. 
 
 Q. That is an arrangement we are trying to get rid of? 
 
 A. Yes. We find the discipline difficult in the dual capacity. 
 
 Sir F. Mowatt : As a sub-postmaster does he not keep himself in order 
 as a postman? (Laughter.) 
 
 A. Yes ; that is one difficulty ; or as a postman perhaps he does not 
 treat ths sub-postmaster witli sufficient respect. (Renewed laughter.) 
 
 Q. Have you anything to say as to the other cases? 
 
 A. Case No. 5 cannot be traced. In case No. 6 the man has three cir- 
 cular duties, the interval being spent at home. The pay seems sufficient. 
 In case No. 7 this man walks 17 miles ; he is on scale, and has just re- 
 ceived an increment. He is quite satisfied. In case No. 8 the wages are 
 now 17s. ; distance 16 miles. In case No. 10 (Limavaddy) the hours of duty 
 are from 8 to 11.10 a.m. ; the wages are considered quite sufficient. The 
 youth employed is only 19 years of age, and cannot therefore have served 
 for 20 years. In case No. li the wages were inadequate, but have now been 
 raised to 13s. In case No. 12 (Dundrum), the hours of duty have been 
 somewhat exaggerated. The duties occupy normally only five hours, but 
 as there are five attendances the present wages seem insufficient. They have 
 been raised to 15s. 
 
 The Chairman : Instances were given of the wide range of liours over 
 which rural postmen's work is spread? 
 
 A. An exceptionally early commencement and late completion of the rural 
 postman's work is occasionally unavoidable. But in such cases there are 
 usually other circumstances whicl' remove the apparent hardship. For in- 
 stance, William Bond, at Gilford, Coimty Down, is said tj be on duty over 
 a period of 16^ hours, but betwfc*» l^is morning and evening work he has 
 an interval of over 9 hours, whic'l^ he spends at home, Mr. M'Crory, at 
 Newton- Stewart, has an ordinarv rural post duty wlt^i g hours' interval, 
 and ending at 7.15, but he voliii ^^^^^^^^ fp^. * *"^^her hour's work in the 
 evening, for which he received pav™;^^^^' -^^ichael Twa^jig of Cork, another 
 of the cases mentioned, is free afteiV? ^'f}' ^V^ ^°^ half-an-hour at noon, 
 and half-an-hour in the evening. "^ S he would '■'^^' ^® relieved of the 
 later duties, but there is little doub , r ^, them prefer to retain them 
 
 together with the extra payment niacf po^caste'r riK 
 
 Q. There is reference to a case of a*>^ 25 minLites" al auxiliary in receipt 
 of 10s. a week for a duty of 6 hoirrs anL-.,pg^ to had : 
 
 A. The Doncaster rural auxiliary refeij -- -' ''■^' not an official duty of 
 6 hours, but he now has, and receives wag^ J. a week for that duty. 
 
 Q. We now come to the case of Thomas Ames, as an example of long 
 walks? 
 
 A. Thomas Ames' official walk is a short one, under 14 miles a day, 
 but it is true that he cannot find a house near his starting point, and has 
 a long walk to and from home, besides travelling a short distance by train 
 at his own cost. His total walking distance is, however, 19^ miles, not 24. 
 He has an 8 hours' rest in the day, and his wages and emoluments amount 
 to 25s. a week. He has declined an offer of a transfer to another walk 
 Until he can find a house near his starting point or is transferred to another 
 walk, it is proposed to pay his railway fare for the journey, by which. 
 Ames shortens his walk home after completing his official day's work at 
 7.10 p.m. 
 
 Q. Do you give any advantages to men who are kept long waiting for 
 trains ? 
 
 A. Yes ; it is expressly provided (Circular to Surveyors^ 4th August, 
 1891) that overtime payment may be given when a postman is kept waiting 
 for a train which is late by as much as two or three hours, or when he is
 
 Long RurarWalks — A Reply to Liverpool Indoor Evidence. 603 
 
 detained by heavy snowstorms, or has an extra deUvery to make, and 
 surveyors are instructed to give the necessary authority. 
 
 Q. There is a tremendous walk mentioned in the case of the man Pitts, 
 who is said to walk 34 miles a day? 
 
 A. J. B. Pitts, sub-postman at Idle, Bradford, does not walk nearly 34 
 miles a day as alleged. He and another postman change duties weekly ; 
 one duty involves 1 hour's indoor work and 6 hours' outdoor work, and 
 the other If hours' indoor work (including two short intervals) and 7^ hours' 
 outdoor work. In order to equalise the duties an hour's outdoor work has 
 been transferred from the second duty to the first, and with this change 
 Pitts admits that the duties are quite satisfactory. Tlie actual distance 
 walked cannot be stated, but it is not thought to exceed 18 miles. 
 
 Q. There were some further cases mentioned? ■ 
 
 A. Yes ; with regard to the alleged walk of 23 miles at Denbigh, no 
 rural postman walks over 17^ miles. As to the alleged case of a 23-mile 
 walk at Kendal, the postman's walk was reduced in October, 1894. For 
 a short time it had been 21 miles a day. With regard to the 26 miles' 
 walk alleged at Southampton, one man walked 22 miles before February 
 17th, and his walk was on that date reduced to 15^ miles. With regard to 
 the 23 miles alleged at Weston-super-Mare, the walk of the postman who 
 gave his distance as 23 miles is really 16| miles, and that of the postman 
 who gave his as 21 miles is 16^ miles. There are no special circumstances 
 in either case. 
 
 The Chairman : It was stated by one of the witnesses that Monday is 
 the day usually chosen to test these rural walks, being, a day when the 
 number of letters is comparatively small. 
 
 A. That is not the fact. There are fewer tests on Monday than on any 
 other day in the week, but where there is no Sunday delivery the de- 
 liveries on Monday are usually rather heavy. I should add that testing 
 of the walks is not confined to the summer-time, but goes on all the year 
 round. 
 
 Q. With regard to the case of the witness Grimmer from Worcester? 
 
 A. The case referred to by Mr. Grimmer is his own. On his way into 
 the country he delivers letters at a group of houses within the Worcester 
 city boundary, and about 1 mile from the head post office. In December 
 last, when this postman had to carry on to the end of his walk a parcel 
 for one of these houses, where the people were not up when he passed, 
 he was told that if any further difficulty arose he was to hand over any 
 parcels to be sent out by the mid-diiy town delivery. A parcel was so 
 treated on January 6th, so that Mr. Grimmer appears to be mistaken in 
 saying that the matter had not been remedied. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : When he stated the circumstances as an ordinary thing in 
 the experience of rural postmen, he seems to have been describing what 
 happened on one occasion? 
 
 A. Yes ; so far as his own walk is concerned. 
 
 Q. And he gave us that as the experience of rural postmen? 
 
 A. Yes. Wlien he stated that no remedy had been applied he omitted 
 to mention that on a certain day in .January a remedy had been applied 
 in his own case, as I have mentioned, for he had been allowed to hand 
 back a parcel. 
 
 Q. If a man is already carrying 35 lbs. weight he need not accept any 
 further parcels on his inward journey? 
 
 A. Certamly not. 
 
 Q. Sever. 1 points were rai«ed l)y Mr. Fred, f'mith, a stamper at Liver- 
 pool, who gave evidence independent of that given by the Federation. 
 
 A. The main points in his evidence are as follows: — (1) Eastern hall 
 door Liverpool Office — It has now been arranged for this door to be used 
 by postmen bringing in collections, and by station messengers conveying 
 bags, by which means from 70 to 100 yards walking will be saved in some 
 instances. The door cannot be seen by the supervising officers, and when
 
 604 Mr. E. B, Leavin Hill. 
 
 it was open to the whole staff some of the men used it to conceal late 
 attendance, and to leave the office without permission. (2) With regard to 
 the paj^ment for Bank Holiday, the rule is the same at Liverpool as ob- 
 tains elsewhere. (3) Concession granted in 1886 as regards sj^cial jmyment 
 at overtime rates for work done after 9 p.m. on Saturday in connection 
 with the incoming American mails — A memorial from the staif on this point 
 is imder consideration. (4) Heavy mail bags, limit of weight asked for — 
 This question will be duly considered. The station messengers at Liver- 
 pool are allowed to use a cab if the total weight to be carried exceeds 35 lbs., 
 and no sacks are made up at Liverpool weighing more than from 80 to 
 100 lbs. Special assistance is provided for handling American mails, and 
 care will be taken to prevent any undue strain upon the men on whose be- 
 half this witness spoke. (5) Establishment of a separate class for stampers, 
 station messengers, parcel packers, etc., at provincial offices — The multipli- 
 cation of classes and of varying scales of pay is undesirable. The present 
 system of selecting postmen and paying them a special allowance for these 
 duties, regulated according to the importance and arduous nature of such 
 duties, works well. Under it a man who is found to be unsuitable for the 
 duty can be sent back to the ordinary delivery, etc., work, whereas if a 
 special class were formed with special rates of pay for men performing 
 these duties, this course could not be adopted. 
 
 Q. We have also had some evidence given by an independent Dublin man 
 named Doran, who asked and received permission to give evidence. Will 
 you onswer the main points that he raises ? 
 
 A His points were : — (1) That more postmen should be employed in 
 Du' in on the stamping duties, and that postmen should be employed in 
 subdividing the letters into the town walks, in each case receiving the 
 special usual allowances. (2) That the number of auxiliaries should be 
 reduced, additional full-time duties being formed, although such duties 
 would in many cases be spread over about 15 hours. (3) That certain col- 
 lection duties and allowances for them should be revised. All the above 
 points are already being dealt with in a general revision of the postmen's 
 duties at Dublin which is imder consideration. (4) A higher minimum for 
 the established postmen in Dublin, to correspond with the higher age on 
 appointment to the established class — The average on appointment to the 
 established class during the last four years was 24 years. I have already 
 expressed an opinion that in such cases higher commencing wages should 
 be given. (5) Higher wages for the postmen at certain sub-offices near 
 Dublin. This question will be dealt with separately in the usual course. 
 
 The Chairman : Doran makes a statement that at Dublin one day bi- 
 Meekly the men are called upon to perform an 11 or 12 hour duty? 
 
 A. I have not been able to get information on that point. We are 
 having a general revision of the indoor and outdoor duties at Dublin. I will 
 inquire further into the matter. 
 
 Q. What is the nature of the reports as to the general sanitary condition 
 of the provincial offices? 
 
 Mr. Walpole : They would not come under the notice of Mr. Hill. 
 
 The Cliairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Hill. We need not trouble 
 you any further. 
 
 The witness then withdrew, and the Committee adjourned until the 27th 
 April. 
 
 The two tables appended were put in by Mr. Hill in the course of his 
 evidence : —
 
 Tables Relating to Established and Auxiliary Postmen. 605 
 
 Statement showing the Number of Town Postmen (Established 
 AND Auxiliary) at certain Towns, 70 in Number. 
 
 
 
 
 (c ja 
 
 
 
 ■a 
 
 
 "C Ot 
 
 
 
 
 J 
 
 c3 g 
 
 
 NAME OF TOWN. 
 
 
 1§ 
 
 p D m 
 
 2o M lu 
 
 EEMAEKS. 
 
 
 *-■ o 
 
 CU "^ m 
 
 
 
 •z^ 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 ^ 
 
 O o 
 
 
 
 "A 
 
 
 r^ 
 
 
 Birmingham, 
 
 480 
 
 14 
 
 2 
 
 
 Liverpool 
 
 022 
 
 98 
 
 93 
 
 
 Manchester, 
 
 •(;09 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Glasgow, 
 
 524 
 
 211 
 
 166 
 
 Under revision. 
 
 Edinburgh, 
 
 39o 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 
 Bradford, 
 
 13(] 
 
 28 
 
 28 
 
 
 Brighton, 
 
 125 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 Bristol,... 
 
 287 
 
 14 
 
 1 
 
 
 Cardiff, 
 
 157 
 
 12 
 
 11 
 
 
 Derby, ... 
 
 ;)3 
 
 4 
 
 3 
 
 
 Hull, 
 
 i<./:3 
 
 22 
 
 22 
 
 
 Lieds, 
 
 252 
 
 ■iG 
 
 28 
 
 Under revision. 
 
 Leicester, 
 
 1.'3 
 
 i;] 
 
 2 
 
 
 Newcastle-on-Tyne, ... 
 
 151 
 
 9 
 
 9 
 
 
 Nottingham, 
 
 li3 
 
 30 
 
 21 
 
 Under revision. 
 
 Sheffield, 
 
 107 
 
 38 
 
 23 
 
 
 Woverhampton, 
 
 57 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 Bath, 
 
 81 
 
 21 
 
 15 
 
 
 Blackburn, 
 
 41 
 
 4 
 
 4 
 
 
 Bolton, 
 
 48 
 
 17 
 
 15 
 
 
 Exeter, 
 
 67 
 
 3 
 
 3 
 
 
 Gloucester 
 
 54 
 
 16 
 
 12 
 
 
 Halifax, 
 
 44 
 
 5 
 
 4 
 
 
 Hastings, 
 
 63 
 
 10 
 
 9 
 
 
 Huddersfield, 
 
 09 
 
 15 
 
 8 
 
 
 Darlington, 
 
 31 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 
 Bournemouth, 
 
 75 
 
 17 
 
 13 
 
 
 Middlesborough, 
 
 38 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 Northampton, 
 
 35 
 
 5 
 
 5 
 
 
 Norwich, 
 
 94 
 
 14 
 
 11 
 
 
 Plymouth 
 
 92 
 
 13 
 
 12 
 
 
 Portsmouth, 
 
 m 
 
 23 
 
 21 
 
 ( Question of reducing 
 
 Reading, 
 
 33 
 
 33 
 
 28 
 
 Auxiliary force is under 
 f consideration. 
 
 Southampton 
 
 G'2 
 
 39 
 
 24 
 
 Under revision. 
 
 Swansea, 
 
 61 
 
 15 
 
 13 
 
 
 York, 
 
 50 
 
 12 
 
 7 
 
 
 Carlisle, 
 
 31 
 
 6 
 
 G 
 
 
 Cheltenham, ... 
 
 53 
 
 32 
 
 14 
 
 
 Coventry, 
 
 25 
 
 13 
 
 6 
 
 
 Dover, ... 
 
 25 
 
 7 
 
 5 
 
 
 Hereferd, 
 
 15 
 
 11 
 
 7 

 
 606 
 
 Mr. E. B. Lewin Hill. 
 
 Statement showing the Number of Town Postmen (Continued'). 
 
 
 
 
 © ja 
 
 
 
 -c 
 
 
 ■c p. 
 
 
 
 o 
 
 
 « 2 
 5 't ^ 
 
 
 
 •° i 
 
 S a 
 
 
 
 NAME OP TOWN. 
 
 
 4| 
 
 (^ -yi <D 
 
 BEMAKKS. 
 
 
 ^ o 
 
 £ «S 
 
 
 
 of^ 
 
 .^ 
 
 52^ 
 
 
 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 o 
 
 'A 
 3 
 
 O o 
 
 1* 
 
 
 Penzance, 
 
 17 
 
 
 
 
 Rugby, 
 
 13 
 
 4 
 
 2 
 
 
 Ryde, 
 
 17 
 
 7 
 
 4 
 
 
 Taunton, 
 
 24 
 
 3 
 
 3 
 
 
 Torquay, 
 
 46 
 
 4 
 
 3 
 
 
 Tun bridge Wells, 
 
 'il 
 
 14 
 
 12 
 
 
 Worcester, 
 
 38 
 
 6 
 
 2 
 
 
 Colcliester, 
 
 30 
 
 7 
 
 6 
 
 
 Great Yarmouth, 
 
 27 
 
 16 
 
 3 
 
 
 Guildford 
 
 13 
 
 7 
 
 1 
 
 
 Ipswich, 
 
 45 
 
 15 
 
 10 
 
 
 Maidstone, 
 
 19 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 
 Peterborough,... 
 
 22 
 
 13 
 
 5 
 
 
 Salisbury, 
 
 17 
 
 8 
 
 1 
 
 
 Shrewsbury, 
 
 30 
 
 11 
 
 5 
 
 
 Stafford, 
 
 31 
 
 4 
 
 3 
 
 
 Winchester, 
 
 18 
 
 11 
 
 8 
 
 
 Aberdeen, 
 
 82 
 
 11 
 
 11 
 
 
 Dundee, 
 
 75 
 
 12 
 
 12 
 
 
 Paisley, 
 
 24 
 
 20 
 
 1 
 
 
 Palkirk, 
 
 10 
 
 2 
 
 1 
 
 
 Inverness, 
 
 26 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Perth, 
 
 23 
 
 10 
 
 10 
 
 
 Stirling, 
 
 13 
 
 6 
 
 2 
 
 
 Dublin, 
 
 160 
 
 116 
 
 98 
 
 Revision in hand. 
 
 Belfast, 
 
 105 
 
 33 
 
 24 
 
 
 Cork, 
 
 S9 
 
 8 
 
 5 
 
 
 Limerick, 
 
 21 
 
 3 
 
 2 
 
 
 Londonderry, ... 
 
 13 
 
 11 
 
 12.38 
 
 4 
 
 
 Total 
 
 6738 
 
 906 
 
 
 
 
 or IfJ p c 
 
 or 72 p c. 
 
 
 During the last four years the average age of postmen on entering the 
 established class at these offices was 21.^ years. 
 
 The average age of the police at these towns on entry is 23 years, and 
 their average pay at starting is 23s, a week.
 
 Attendance of Established Postmen at Certain Large Towns. 607 
 
 Attendance of Established Postmen at certain Lasge Towns. 
 
 
 within 
 
 
 
 
 TOWN. 
 
 about 
 12 
 
 Over 12 
 Hours. 
 
 Total. 
 
 BEMAEKS. 
 
 
 Hours. 
 
 
 
 
 Birmingham, 
 
 194 
 
 257 
 
 451 
 
 Under revision. 
 
 Bradford 
 
 107 
 
 29 
 
 136 
 
 
 Derby, 
 
 25 
 
 *()8 
 
 93 
 
 * 46 within 13 hours. 
 
 Hull 
 
 65 
 
 29 
 
 94 
 
 
 Leicester, 
 
 54 
 
 55 
 
 109 
 
 
 Nottingham, 
 
 9, 5 
 
 *r.O 
 
 143 
 
 * 48 within 13 hours. 
 
 Sheffield, 
 
 G5 
 
 *102 
 
 167 
 
 * 23 within 13 hours. 
 Revision shortly. 
 
 Wolverhampton , 
 
 21 
 
 3r, 
 
 57 
 
 
 Bath, 
 
 20 
 
 CI 
 
 81 
 
 Under revision. 
 
 Exeter, 
 
 31 
 
 87 
 
 68 
 
 Duties rotate. 
 
 Hastings, 
 
 22 
 
 41 
 
 63 
 
 
 Huddersfield, 
 
 58 
 
 11 
 
 69 
 
 
 Bournemouth,... 
 
 33 
 
 41 
 
 74 
 
 
 Plymouth, 
 
 49 
 
 43 
 
 92 
 
 
 Portsmouth, ... 
 
 fiO 
 
 18 
 
 78 
 
 
 Swansea, 
 
 37 
 
 *24 
 
 61 
 
 * 12 within 13 hours. 
 
 Cheltenham 
 
 19 
 
 *32 
 
 51 
 
 *22 within 13 hours. 
 
 Aberdeen, 
 
 58 
 
 23 
 
 81 
 
 
 Dundee, 
 
 28 
 
 *47 
 
 75 
 
 * 13 of these within 12| 
 hours. Duties rotate. 
 Long interval. 
 
 Paisley, 
 
 13 
 
 11 
 
 24 
 
 
 Greenock, 
 
 19 
 
 32 
 
 51 
 
 
 Perth, 
 
 5 
 
 18 
 
 23 
 
 Under revision. 
 
 Belfast, 
 
 105 
 
 
 105 
 
 
 Bolton, 
 
 ... 
 
 *18 
 
 48 
 
 * All within 13 hours. 
 
 York, 
 
 35 
 
 15 
 
 50 
 
 
 Ipswich, 
 
 11 
 
 34 
 
 4 5 
 
 
 Sunderland, 
 
 *25 
 
 25 
 
 40 
 
 * Rotate. 
 
 Newport (Mon.), 
 
 43 
 
 1 
 
 44 
 
 31 Auxiliaries employed. 
 Under revision. 
 
 Bristol, 
 
 181 
 
 106 
 
 287 
 
 
 Cardiff, 
 
 72 
 
 *85 
 
 157 
 
 * All within 14 hours. 
 
 Liverpool, 
 
 458 
 
 1()4 
 
 622 
 
 
 Manchester, 
 
 455 
 
 154 
 
 609 
 
 
 Brighton, 
 
 55 
 
 70 
 
 125 
 
 
 Newcastle-on-T>ne, ... 
 
 8G 
 
 r.5 
 
 151 
 
 
 Norwich, 
 
 53 
 
 41 
 
 94 
 
 
 Inverness, 
 
 12 
 
 13 
 
 25 
 
 
 Leeds, 
 
 190 
 
 G2 
 
 252 
 
 
 
 
 SUMMAK 
 
 v. 
 
 
 Total number of e 
 
 stablishec 
 
 1 Town P 
 
 ostmen. 
 
 4,805 
 
 Attending within 
 
 covering 
 
 period of 
 
 about 12 
 
 hours, ... 2,S57 
 
 >> r 
 
 ) 
 
 ,, 
 
 over 
 
 ... 1,948 
 
 Percentage withir 
 
 1 12 hours 
 
 5' limit, 
 
 ... 
 
 59-46 
 
 ,, over 
 
 >) 
 
 
 .,. 
 
 40-54
 
 HERBERT JOYCE, Esq., 
 
 Late Third Secretary to tlie Tost Office, 
 
 Rebuts the Cabes of Promotion and Discipline. 
 
 WESTiinNSTER, April, 27tli, 1896. 
 
 Lord Tweedmouth's Committee of Inquiry, after a recess extending over 
 a month, resumed its sittings to-day, liLs lordship again presiding. There 
 were also present ]Mr. Spen-ier Walpole, Mr. Llewellyn Smith, and Sir A. 
 Godley, together with Mr. Bruce, the secretary. The first witness called 
 •was Mr. Herbert Joyce, one of the secretaries of the General Post Office, 
 who spoke on matters of discipline, promotion, and punishment, but 
 whose' evidence was given in so low a tone of voice as to render it ex- 
 ti-emely difficult to catch wliat he said. 
 
 The Chairman : Before going into tlie question of promotion and punish- 
 ment, there are two little matters I should like to clear up. One is raised in 
 a supplementary st;itement handed into me by Mr. M'Laren, in which atten- 
 tion is particularly called to part of an old rule, which lays it down that 
 vacancies in ti)e sorting class should not be filled up by direct appointment, 
 in the event of any letter-carriers who may desire to succeed to it being 
 qualified to perform the duties of the office. Will you tell me what is the 
 fact with regard to that rule? 
 
 A. Yes. Since that rule was laid down itjias been decided that for pro- 
 motion to sorting clerkships there must in the interest of the Service be a 
 fresh Civil Service Certificate obtained. 
 
 Q. Is that a Post Office rule, or is it a requirement of the Civil Service 
 Commission? 
 
 A. It is a requirement under an Order in Council, which in respect to the 
 Civil Service is equivalent to an Act of Parliament. 
 
 A. And therefore by an Order in Council the possibility of moving post- 
 men direct into the sorling clerks' ch ss without examination was done away 
 with altogether? 
 
 A. Absolutely. 
 
 Q. And that is a matter on which the Post Office, as a separate depart- 
 ment, has no control at all? 
 
 A. It has none. 
 
 Q. It is a part of a rule which applies to the Civil Service generally, is 
 it not? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Now, I should like to ask you a question as to what is the rule with 
 regard to the exchange of duties amongst the men in the provinces? 
 
 A. An exchange of duty is never refused if it can be consistently granted, 
 and if application is not made too often. For Post Office purposes Eng- 
 land is divided into many districts, and I have obtained a return from all 
 of them. Speaking generally, and avoiding detail, the reply is that the 
 applications are granted when reasonable, and when not too frequently 
 made. 
 
 Q. Wbat conditions do you impose on the men who wish to exchange? 
 
 A. T!ie conditions differ a little. In some offices it is required that the 
 reason for the exchange should be given. Here I am .speaking not of post- 
 m.en but of sorting clerks. In other cases there are forms provided, which
 
 bfer 
 
 HERBERT JOYCE, Esq., Late Third Secretary to the Post Office. 
 Departmental Witness on the question of Discipline and Promotion.
 
 Exchange of Duties — Special Leave. 609 
 
 have to ]^e signed, not only by the man wlio asks to be allowed to ex- 
 change, but alsio by the man wlio is willing to take the duty. That form 
 has to go to the superintendent or some other superior officer, and if he 
 initials it, then permission is given. 
 
 Q. Is it required that the man who undertakes to do the substitute duty 
 should be of the same class as the one who seeks relief? 
 
 A. Yes, almost always. 
 
 Q. And, with that exception, there is no check upon the individual sug- 
 gested as substitute? 
 
 A. No ; if he is a fitting substitute there is no check, 
 
 Q. And it is practically left to the two men to arrange it themselves' 
 
 A. Yes, practically. 
 
 Q. Then with rega-d to the postmen, what is the rule there? 
 
 A. Speaking generally, they are required to make written application 
 to their inspector. In some cases the reason has to be specified, but I do 
 not know if that is universal. 
 
 Q. Have you a general rule laid down from headquarters to govern the 
 inspector's action with regard to these exchanges? 
 
 A. No. In some cases, no doubt, the inspectors or superintendents deal 
 more indulgently with these applications than others, but we think it is a 
 matter which should be left to the discretion of the local authorities to 
 allow a man to get away if he has good reason for desiring to do .so, even 
 beyond the usual or prescribed number of days. We rather object to a 
 rule, because if one were laid down, it must be adhered to in every case, 
 and no exceptions could be made, even where the circumstances seemed to 
 justif}^ it. It is in the interests of the men themselves tliat a rule .should 
 not be laid down. 
 
 Q. Then practically it is very much in the local superintendents' discre- 
 tion to refuse or grant leave for substitute service, and to decide the condi- 
 tions under which particular leave should be given? 
 
 A. If you substitute "Postmaster" for "superintendent," that would be 
 perfectly right. The superintendent deals with the ordinary cases, but 
 cases of an extraordinary nature would be referred to the Postmaster. 
 
 Q. And in the smaller offices the Postmaster is the supreme authority, , 
 and would deal with all cases himself? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is there anything further you wish to say on tlr's particular point, 
 Mr. Joyce ? 
 
 A. No ; I think tliere is nothing more. We have been talking of the 
 exchanges of duty witliin a period of one day. but when a whole day is 
 asked for or more than a day, then the case may be a little different. The 
 officials are more particular in some offices, and even some districts, than 
 others. But such application.s are comparatively few, and are rarely re- 
 fused. Speaking generally, the practice as regards applications for one 
 day's absence would be much the same as that with regard to exchanges 
 for part of a day. 
 
 Q. Passing from that question to the question of promotion, there has 
 been a good deal of suggestion that it is possible for a man to receive pro- 
 motion through favouritism rather than according to strict merit. Can 
 you tell us generally your views iinon that point? 
 
 A. Yes ; my view generally is this : that while human nature is as it is, 
 there may be — indeed, I think I may say there are — most probably cases 
 of favouritism, but that it is in any way whatever genenl I do not be- 
 lieve for a moment — not for -a single moment. I think tlie explanation of 
 many of these charges of favouritism is this — It will be observed that almost 
 every case relates to the promotion of men from the Postmaster's oflBce. 
 Well, the Postmaster's office has no special classification of its own. It 
 happens in this way. The Postmaster when he requires any help must have 
 recourse to the general office, and from there lie uaturally selects the most 
 promising men with whom to surroar.d him.self. They are the best men— r
 
 10 Mr, Herbekt Joyce. 
 
 the picked men of the whole office — and it may be naturally expected that 
 this picked lot, as time goes on, produces men more capable than those 
 who remain in the general office. That I believe to be the true explanation 
 of many of these charges. 
 
 Q. Then you do not think it would be possible, even in the case of any 
 given office, that tlie practice of favouritism should be long continued? 
 
 A. No ; I think it is impossible. In a large office the chief officers are 
 known to those about them. They are known not alone to the Postmaster, 
 but to tlie surveyor of the district, and with tlie vigilance that is exercised 
 at hea(hjuarters, it is quite impossible to suppose that as a rule Post- 
 masters can make such promotions unfairly, or that they could hoodwink 
 — for it is what tliat would amount to— both the surveyor and the head- 
 quarter staff. 
 
 Q. Are tlie promotions which are made from time to time in provincial 
 offices reported to headquarters? 
 
 A. Yes. No promotion whatever is made in a post office except it 
 passes first tlirough the hands of the surveyor, and then it goes to head- 
 quarters, wlicre it is most vigilantly examined, not with the idea of fav- 
 ouritism, but to ensure that favouritism shall not be allowed. 
 
 Q. Do you think your provisions in that respect to be sufficiently strong, 
 and to be exercised with sufficient vigihince to prohibit the chance of any 
 long-continued practice of favouritism on the part of any subordinate 
 officials of the Post Office throughout tlie provinces? 
 
 A. Absolutely, to prevent any long-continued practice of favouritism. 
 I will not say that does not occur in any case. Indeed, I have in my mind 
 a particular case with which I strongly think there was favouritism. But 
 it is an exception. I am quite certain it is an exception. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, these promotions when they reach the 
 head office are carefully analysed? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And when thev pass through they go before the Postmaster-General? 
 A. They do. 
 
 Q. And they actually receive the written fiat of the Postmaster-General? 
 A. Every one of them. 
 
 Q. And, as a natter of fact, in the great majority of cases the fiat is 
 not given lightly, Init the Postmaster-General looks carefully into the facts? 
 A. Yes; it is ilways a matter of the greatest grief to the Postmaster- 
 General — it 1ms been to every Postmaster-General under whom I have 
 eerved — ^when he is constrained to pass over anybody in cases of promo- 
 tion. I have seen Mr. Arnold Morley — I will not say in tears — but almost 
 crying, and certainly much distressed, when he has had to pass anybody 
 over. He has always done it witli the greatest regret. 
 
 Q. Is there any difference in the treatment of the ordinary cases of pro- 
 motion to the higher ones? 
 
 A. No ; there is no difference whatever in the treatment of any case. 
 The Chairman then took the witness seriatim through the individual 
 cases of grievances which had been laid before the Committee regarding 
 sorting clerks. 
 
 The Chairman : Generally, in these cases we have gone through, you 
 would say, I suppose, that though in one or two instances there may have 
 been favouritism, on the whole t!ie instances of men passed over were due 
 to proper causes, and to causes which must be considered for the benefit of 
 the Service? 
 
 A. Exactly; and, I should like to add, that I think the cases of fav- 
 ouritism, if they exist at all, exist very rarely. 
 
 Q. As a check on possible favouritism, it has been suggested in evidence 
 that Postmasters should be required by the Department to warn men whom 
 it is intended to pass over, so that the reasons may be stated, and protests 
 accompany the recommendation. 
 
 A' I ttink that is absolutely out of the question. An overwhelming
 
 Incidents in Careers of Ex-P.M.Gr.*s. 611 
 
 objection to letting men know before it is proposed to pass them over is 
 that the Postmaster-General may not approve the proposal. No doubt this 
 does not very often happen, but it does sometimes. It happened the other 
 day. I well remember Mr. Fawcett's address to the head of a large de- 
 partment who had done this very thing ; that is to say, having a large 
 number of promotions to recommend, he had told the officers concerned 
 whom he had recommended and whom he had not ; and what made the 
 matter worse, he had in his recommendation taken little account of seniority, 
 whereas Mr. Fawcett, like Mr. Arnold Morley, had a perfect horror of 
 I)assiug anyone over. I only .saw Mr. Fawcett angry on two occasious, and 
 tiiat was one of them. He sumiiiuned the head of the department, 4uid, 
 shaking his hst, lie said, "What have you been domg? You have been 
 telling all these men that they will be promoted, or that others will be 
 passed over. Now, suppose that I don't approve of your recommendation, 
 a pretty position you will be in then, and I have half a mind to put you in 
 that position." Mr. Fawcett told the officer that it was a gross impro- 
 priety, and must not occur again. It is impossible to conceive anything 
 better calculated to impair a Postmaster's authority than that one of his 
 subordinates whom he has told that he would be passed over should be 
 promoted, and that another who has been informed that he would be pro- 
 moted has been passed over. It would really be out of the question to tell 
 men beforehand of the intention to pass them over ; indeed, it would not 
 be in their own interests, because the fact of such an intention being made 
 known to them might just turn the scale in the Postmaster-Greneral's mind 
 against them, whereas, otherwise, the Postmaster-General might possibly 
 set the recommendation aside. 
 
 Q. Now, I think we may pass to the similar allegations put forward with 
 regard to the postmen, and tt e first question I would ask is — Do the general 
 propositions which you have laid down with regard to this subject in con- 
 nection with the sorting clerks apply also in the case of the postmen? 
 
 A. I cannot answc that aliirniatively, for tlic sinqile reason -and it is a 
 melancholy fact — that among the postmen there is very little promotion. 
 It therefore does not exist. I have already explained that the appointment 
 of postmen direct to the position of sorting clerks is no longer possible. 
 
 Q. Do you think it is desirable that jaostmen should be transferred more 
 freely from their own class to the class of sorting clerks? 
 
 A. If they proved themselves thoroughly fit I think it would be very 
 desirable indeed, because it would give them promotion, but then fitness 
 mu.st be proved. There are other things to be looked at. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : Are you referring now to the possible extension 
 of the sorterships open to limited competition, or to promotions to super- 
 intending posts? 
 
 A. I was speaking of promotion or transfer from the class of postmen to 
 that of sorting clerks, under the Order in Council, as I have explained the 
 ajjpointment of sorting clerks must now be by new certificate, so that there 
 cannot be promotion in the ordinary sense from the rank of postman to that 
 of sorting clerk ; it must be a fresh appointment, 
 
 Q. At present I think a certain number of sorters are chosen by limited 
 competition from among the postmen. 
 
 A. That is so in London, but I am speaking solely now of the provinces, 
 and in the provinces they cannot be so appointed without a fresh certificate. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : It is done in London also with a fresh certificate. 
 
 A. Yes, but with a limited examination — ^a limited competition. 
 
 Q. Yes. They have to get a separate certificate as sorting clerks from the 
 Civil Service Commissioners. 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Would there be any reason why the same principle should not b« 
 applied to the large provincial offices? 
 
 A. Practically, I hope that it is applied and in existence there.
 
 612 Mr. Heisbeut Joyce. 
 
 Q. In the large provincial oflfices there is no reservation as to the num- 
 ber of places to be reserved specially for postmen. 
 
 A. No ; I take it that if a postman proved himself thoroughly fit, the 
 Postmaster would naturally be williii;,' to jiivc lii'n a iiomiaation. 
 
 The Chairman : We will now look to the evidence, where a few cases are 
 
 {;iven. The first case was at Liverpool, wliere Mr. Robinson is said to 
 lave been appointed to act as inspector while still an assistant-postman of 
 about three years' service, and that he must have been promoted over more 
 than 300 postmen. 
 
 A. If 1 may take in oomiectiou witli this the case of Mr. Hicks, I think 
 the one will explain tlie otiu'r bett<-i'. 
 
 The (."hainiiaii : Cerlainly; do so. 
 
 A. They are both I^ivei pool cases. In tlie case of Mr. Hicks, out of a 
 body of 500 postmen, all of whom hud bjen invited to apply, only 15 
 offered themselves as candidates, and of these 15 Hicks, who had long 
 acted as head postman, Avas by far the best qualified. If out of 500 post- 
 men only 15 applied on the occasion of Mr. Hick's appointment, then I 
 think it ceases to be a matter of surprise that Mr. Robinson was a]>pointed 
 over the heads of 210. I find that in 1885 Robinson stood 210 on his class, 
 and he was promoted to be assistant-inspector. It was certified that no one 
 standmg above him was (jualified for the duties. He had, when a young 
 postman, been selected by his inspector as a superior and promising officer. 
 He was tempoi*arily employed as an assistant-inspector, and discharged the 
 duties so efficiently that on a vacancy occurring he was promoted to it. 
 The inspectors imder whom he has worked think highly of his capacity. 
 It is true that he is a strict disciplinarian, and not popular with the men, 
 but there is no case on record or remembered in which he has shown want of 
 judgment or consideration or has acted harshly. 
 
 Q. Still, it seems to have been rather a strong order to appoint an as- 
 sistant-postman to such an office, and to give him such great promotion? 
 
 A. Yes, it certainly does seem so, but for the position of inspector or 
 assistant-inspector of postmen there is no doubt that qualifications are re- 
 quired which are not ordinarily to be found in postmen. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it a fact that Robinson was onl}' an assistant-postman? 
 Is not that a mistake? 
 
 A. He was a regular postman. 
 
 The Chairman: Was he a full-blown postman and not an auxiliary? It 
 looks as if he were the latter. 
 
 A. No. He was a full-blown postman. Mr. Hicks passed over 500, 
 and this Mr. Robinson passed over 210. He must have been in comparison 
 not only a postman, but a postman of some years' service. Postmen do 
 not always, or perhaps even often, possess sufficient power of control, 
 aptitude for making inquiries, and ability to write an intelligent report. 
 The present Postmaster of Liverpool states that at the town from which he 
 has been recently promoted, out of a force of 300 postmen he foujid very 
 few who were qualified for even the subordinate post of charge-taker, to 
 which niav be added that the fact already stated at Liverpool, that only 15 
 out of 500 applied for an appointment as assistant-inspector, which would 
 seem to show on the part of the postmen themselves a distrust of their 
 capacity. 
 
 Q. What have you to say with regard to the cases of Parrott and Lunn, 
 who are stated to have lieen passed over, although it is added that both 
 of them had actually acted as inspectors? 
 
 A. The last vacancy for assistant-inspector at Liverpool occurred in 
 1894, when both Parrott and Lunn were candidates. Parrott is a good and 
 deser\'ing officer, and had frequently acted temporarily as assistant-inspector 
 at a district office, but of the candidates he was bv no means the best. 
 Lunn was a good postman, but was not possessed of the necessary qualifica- 
 tions for the position of assistant-inspector.
 
 Liverpool and Brighton Cases. 613 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it true that Parrott had acted as assistant-inspector for 
 8 years? 
 
 A. No ; what I understand is that during 8 years he acted at intervals, 
 when he was requested to do so, as assistant-inspector. 
 
 The Chairman : Then what about the case of Mr. John Dodd, who is 
 stated to have acted as inspsctor, but was passed over by juniors? 
 
 A. He applied only on one occasion for the position of assistant-inspector, 
 namely, in 1889, but he could not be recommended. It is true that as re- 
 cently as 189-1 he acted for several weeks as a substitute for assistant-in- 
 spectors on leave, but this employment was given because the man Dodd 
 was suffering from diseased bone of the kg, and was unable to do his 
 ordinary duty as postman. 
 
 Mr Walpole : You mean that through charity he was put on lighter 
 work, and that a claim is founded upon that charity for his promotion to 
 superior work? 
 
 A. Yea. 
 
 Q. Do j'ou think, as a matter of fact, that a man suffering from diseased 
 bone of the leg ought to have been allowed to take inspectors duty? 
 
 A. I think it was a matter of kindly consideration on the part of the 
 Pcstmaster, and I think it was perliaps natural, but it was clearly a make- 
 shift. 
 
 The Cliairman : The witness Walton said that the method in Liverpool 
 had been for 19 years past to put .senior postmen out of bounds for pro- 
 motion, so that no postman would Ije eligible over 40 years of age. 
 
 A. For the position of inspectors and assistant-inspectors I think I may 
 say that the local authorities, and also headquarters, are more particular 
 than they are about any other })romotion, and they are most anxious to 
 select actuall}' the best men. In almost every other promotion very great 
 allowance is made for seniority, but in the case of inspectors it is not so, 
 on account of the somewhat rare qualities required of inspectors, and the 
 post is a most invidious one. 
 
 Q. Then with regard to these particular cases, you would say that 
 though they may be assumed to involve certciin hardships to the men passed 
 over, the cause of the passing over was simply the necessity of obtaining 
 hrst-rate men for responsible situations. 
 
 A. Yes ; that is absolutely so. 
 
 Q. And that no question of favouritism arises with regard to these cases? 
 
 A. I have not the least idea that there was. I will say this, that if you 
 go into the branch offices in London and see the inspectors of postmen, 
 you would see at once that they are men with powers not ordinarily met 
 with among postmen. 
 
 Q. Now we come to a long series of charges with regard to the man- 
 agement of the post office at Brighton. Would you prefer to deal with 
 that a.s a wliole or go into the individual civses? 
 
 A. If I may have my choice, I would ratlier deal with it as a whole. 
 
 Q. Then please do so. 
 
 A. Of course, I am also prepared, as far as I can, to go into the indi- 
 vidual cases. 
 
 Q. I think you will be able to put the matter clearer in a general story 
 rather than by going at once into the individual cases. 
 
 A. I think the true explanation of all these charges is that Mr. Hether- 
 ingLon and the witness are in entire disagreement in a matter of principle. 
 The witnes.s holds that everyone should enter the service as a postman, 
 whereas Mr. Hetherington strongly holds— and I am not expressing any 
 opinion of my own on the matter — tliat tlie promotion of a postman to be 
 a sorting clerk should be the exception and not the rule. His reasons for 
 this opinion are (1) lack of education ; (2) the inexpediency of ranking men 
 of mature age among and below lads fresh from school, and (3) the fact 
 that the qualities which make a good postman do not make a good sorting 
 clerk. With this view he has endeavoured to keep in training a supply of
 
 614 Mr. Herbert Joyce. 
 
 well-educated lads to fill the vacancies as they occur, and meanwhile to act 
 
 as substitutes for sorting clerks. This he calls his nursery. 
 
 Q. Does that practice hold good in other places besides Brighton? 
 
 A. It is not propounded in the same terms, but if it be the case that the 
 postmen are not fit in other towns, then it would in practice be the same 
 there. 
 
 Q. Tliis is the first time I have heard the idea of any individual Tostmaster 
 keeping on his own account a sort of nursery for sorting clerks? 
 
 A. It cannot be uncommon at other offices. A young man must be 
 learning his duty in the office with a view to nomination when vacancies 
 occur. 
 
 Mr. Llewellyn Smith : They are already employed ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : They are taken on the r&sponsibility of the Postmaster 
 to learn their work without the sanction of the Department, and not em- 
 ployed or paid by the Department, but taking advantage of ti)e facilities 
 placed at their disposal by the Postmaster to leam their work in order 
 to obtain future appointments? 
 
 A. I don't suppose he would bring them into the office except as sub- 
 stitutes for absentees. 
 
 Q. When they are doing work as substitutes for aljsentees, what is their 
 position — do they get paid or do they not? 
 
 A. Yes. they would get paid as substitutes. 
 
 The Chairman : Is it in the power of the Postmaster in the provinces 
 to take men from outside the Service and employ their substitutes in the 
 absence of the regular employees of the Department? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Mr. L. Smith : Some might be employed as telegraph bovs, might they 
 not? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Q. Then the custom in London as to them does not prevail in the pro- 
 vinces — I mean the custom of selecting clerks from ex-telegrapli messengers? 
 
 A. Some might qualify, but that would not be the regular recruiting 
 ground. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : As a matter of fact, it has been the normal custoin of 
 Postmasters when any of the sorting staff were away from their duties for 
 any cause, to bring in substitutes to do the work? 
 
 A. Yes ; that must be done. 
 
 Q. And, in accordance with their instructions, it is their duty to do that? 
 
 A. Yes ; in no other way could the work be done. 
 
 The Chairman : I thought I understood that the offices were provided with 
 a sufficient number of officers to make provisioii for contingencies of this 
 sort, and that there was a regular relief staff prorided? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Is it not the case that in a revision we do provide a relief 
 staff sufficient for all the normal business of the office? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. But that, luckily or unluckily, the work is perpetually very fast grow- 
 ing, and in the course of a few months it outgrows the provisions which 
 have alreadv been made? 
 
 A. Yes. " 
 
 Q. So that they have to wait for another revision and must fall back 
 upon these substitutes for relief? 
 
 A. Yes 
 
 Mr. Smith : Some of the men so employed derive part of their income 
 regularly through acthag as substitutes in the same way as auxiliary post- 
 men who derive part of their income from taking short duties. 
 
 A. Yes ; in large offices they do. 
 
 Q. Thev would, Ln fact, be a kind of auxiliarv sorting clerk? 
 
 A. Yea:
 
 The Brighton Case. 615 
 
 Mr. Walpole: Would it not be the case as it is with the rural postmen 
 employed on substitute duty, that these men in time would be likely to be 
 nominated for sorting clerks? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. And that is one of the objects in employing them? 
 
 Tlxe Chairman : I should like to draw your attention to the question which 
 deals with the cases of H. Bennett, C. Weller, and others. The witness 
 (Walton) states that Bennett is the son of the chief clerk at Brighton, and 
 that Weller is the nephew of the assistant-superintendent, that they went 
 into the Service as learners, and were soon put on sorting clerks' duties on 
 the permanent staff. 
 
 A. They were admitted in the same way as the others. Bennett was 
 admitted in April, 1894, and Weller in November, 1895. Neither has been 
 nominated, and they both received pay only for acting as substitutes. 
 Bennett was so acting almost continuously, but Weller received full pay 
 for not more than three weeks in all. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : In the case of the employment of men engaged in pther 
 work to assist as auxiliary sorting clerks, is it not the fact that they wpuld 
 only be employed in times of pressure, such as Christmas time? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think they would only be employed at sucli times. 
 
 The Chairman: Have you anything further to say on that case? 
 
 A. No, beyond that I think that the explanition that I have given will 
 go far to explain some of the charges of favouritism that have been made. 
 
 Q. Then there is another point in the evidence on tliis point to which I 
 wish to call your attention. The witness complains that nearly half the 
 present number of second-class sorting clerks on the Brighton staff have 
 been brought from other towns ; that does not seem to fit in very well 
 with Mr. Hetherington's usual practice? His "nursery" seems to have been 
 strangely deficient in that respect. 
 
 A. Yes ; I was much struck with that statement, and I mquired if 
 it were a fact that nearly one-half of the sorting clerks now on the Brighton 
 staff had been brought from other towns. I am informed that the total 
 number of second-class sorting clerks at Brighton is 40, while the number 
 of these brought from other towns is 10, and of these 10 four were imported 
 by express instructions from London. I believe there was a reduction of 
 the staff at Eastbourne. It was desired to reduce the number of learners 
 there, and they were transferred to Brighton. 
 
 The Chairman : Then it was not on account of any deficiency in the supply 
 of men at Brighton, but it was because the Postmaster had to provide 
 places for these men by order of the General Post Office? 
 
 A. Exactly. He had to provide for the redundancy at Eastbourne. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Then it cannot be said that it was the fault of the Post- 
 niaster that men were brought from other towns instead of Brighton men 
 being appointed? The complaint was on behalf of the Brighton men, who 
 thought that some from among their own number should have been ap- 
 pointed instead of men from other towns? 
 
 A. Y&s ; that is so. 
 
 Mr. Smith : I see that in the same answer there is a reference to the 
 examination of sorting clerks, and that postmen do not think that they 
 ought to be called upon to pass any fresh examination when they are 
 transferred to the sorting class. It is suggested they could not pass the 
 new examination. 
 
 A. I believe the standard of examination has recently been raised. 
 
 Q. Then there is an examination at Brighton for sorting clerks? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have here a document which will show what the examination 
 formerly was, and what it now is. 
 
 Q. Then it is not a case of open competition? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole: It is really a "pass" examination, is it not? 
 
 A. Yea,
 
 616 Mr. IIkruekt Joyce. 
 
 Q. An examination, the passing of which qualifies for the Service? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman: Oo on, iil&isc. 
 
 Witness : The other i)r!ncij)l(-s which nnderlie ^^r. Hetherinj^tfjn's yriw- 
 lice are rather a matter of speculation. It seems to me tliat a I'ostmastor 
 who would not give a nomination to the son or nephmv of an oM Post Office 
 servant, if fit for it, would \te a jK)sitive churl. Mr. Hetlierington and his 
 predecessor, the late Postmaster, {vpiK'ared to have given many such nomina- 
 tions. To say tliat of two persons promoted A is a son of an old Post 
 Office servant, or that B is a ncpliew, proves nothing; the same might, and 
 no doubt would he s;iid of C and 1), or E and F, if ttiey and not A and 
 B luid been promoted. Tliere is no reason wliy sudi appointments should 
 not 1)6 made if tlie person so aj)pointed is fit for the j)lace. and this seems 
 to me to e.vplain a great deal of the complaint as to tiie Brighton Office; 
 without such exjilanation it would l>e unintelligible. 
 
 Q. Have you anytliing on tlie individual cases wliich were brought for- 
 ward? 
 
 A. Yes. There is the rasp of W. Stenning, who. it was stated, entered 
 the office five r)r seven years ago for a short time, liad done parcel and 
 letter delivery work, and iia^l thou performed indoor duty. 
 
 The Chairman : Tliere is also the case of F. Dunstone, and it was alleged, 
 I think, that Imth he and Stennint; liad never properly classified as postmen, 
 and had never performed pastmen's duty. In the case of Dunstone, the 
 allegation was thnt he had never done a day's work as a postman, and 
 ha<l never worn the postman's uniform? 
 
 A. Yes ; but I have not the slightest douV)t it was not so. I believe 
 there was an allegation also in the case of one of the.se men (Stenning) that 
 he was of Meak if.tellect, but I am informed that he showed no signs of 
 that until about November. 1892. 
 
 The Chairman : Tlien it is a fact that he was sent to a lunatic asylum 
 for some months? 
 
 A. I have t.aken that for granted. As regards Dunstone. he was ap- 
 pointed postman in October, 1887. and he was employed on the indoor 
 duties imtil 1891, when he was promoted to be a sorting clerk. That was 
 before \rr. Hetherington's time. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Tlir-n Mr. Hetherington was not responsible for Dun.stone's 
 promotion, which, indeed, is against the principle on which he professes to 
 act? 
 
 A. No ; because this took place in April. 1891, and Mr. Hetherington was 
 not appointed until May, 1891. 
 
 The Chairman: Then, a>:ain, Mr. Dunstone 's name ^as well as that'of Mr, 
 Outram) is mentioned with regard to his promotion to an inspectorship, 
 and it was complained that he got that promotion because he had a brother 
 (Walter Dunstone) who was assistint-superintendent in the same office? 
 
 A. Witli regard to that. Mr. Hetherington says he was not aware at the 
 time that anv such rehitionship existed, and. in fact, the brother had left 
 before Mr. Hetherington had got that promotion. 
 
 Q. The next case is that of ^fr. Paul ? 
 
 A. Y'es ; until recently Paul was employed as indoor postman or packer 
 in the parcel office. Prior to 1891 his work was important, and possibly 
 more responsilile than it should have been, because tlie Parcel Post work 
 was performed almost exclu.?ively by the postmen, but at no time could his 
 dutv be defined as that of a superintendent, and in no case was he left in 
 charge of the parcel oflSce, except when acting as substitute. As regards 
 the refusal of promotion to him. with the consequence that his health broke 
 down, it is to be observed that the sick leave was granted him a year-an-a- 
 half after such refusal. He is not a man of superior ability, as has been 
 suggested, and. indeed, he himself applied for outdoor work on the ground 
 that the indoor work did not agree with his health. 
 
 The Chairman : Now we come to the case of Brostowe and Barnes,
 
 The Question of Nomination. 617 
 
 who complained that they were refused promotion. Are they cases which 
 come under Mr. Hetheringtou's own responsibility? 
 
 A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Then tDey may be taken as dependent on the principles which Mr. 
 Hetherington has laid down, and of which you told us just now? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. There is the complaint that two men, Mountford and Powell, of Staf- 
 fonl, who applied for appointment as sorting clerks, and were told that 
 they were not adipted lor the work. Have you any explanation as to 
 why thev were passed over? 
 
 A. Ye5. 
 
 (j. Has the practice which obtams at Brighton received the sanction at 
 head(juarters ? 
 
 A. Only indirectly. Rightly or wrongly these matters are left in the 
 hands of the local Postmaster, and there is not very much check exercised 
 over them. 
 
 Q. Do you think that tlie postmen at Brighton have suflfered? Do you 
 think that if a different |u-inciple had been gone upon they would have re- 
 ceived more of these places? 
 
 A. No, 1 do not; and I do not think there is anything to sliow that 
 promotion has not l>eea given in all cases where there was htness for it. 
 Indeed, 1 am not prepared to say that the proportion of promotions of 
 postmen at Brighton is not as higii as the proportion elsewhere. I am very 
 much grieved to say that from a return which I ha"ve obtained with regard 
 to the United Kingdom for tiie year 1894-1895, the numl)er of postmen 
 who were successful in passuig into higher classes was very few indeed. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : D» you mean the number of postmen nominated as sorting 
 clerks ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I should like to put in for the information of this Committee 
 the return which I have in my hands. 
 
 Q. It shows that only 27 postmen were nominated as sorting clerks and 
 telegraphists during the year 1894-1895? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The C'iiairman : Do you think the nominations of postmen for sorting 
 clerkships are as numerous as they might be? Do you think that undue 
 diihculties are put in the way of postmen obtaining these nominations? 
 
 A. No ; I certainly do not tliink that imdue difficulties are put in their 
 way. 
 
 Q. Would a provincial poslman, if he showed his fitness for the work, 
 be practically assured of a nomination? 
 
 A. No, I do not think that he could be assured of that, and I am not 
 quite certain that such an assurance could be given with propriety. Still, 
 I think it would be desirable that where a postman is thoroughly qualified 
 he sliould have the promotion. This lack of promotion is a very great 
 drawback. Again, I am not quite sure whether, speaking generally, a 
 postman's work is of a kind calculated to fit him for the duties of a sorting 
 clerk. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would it not be possible to do in the i)rovinces as we do 
 in London, and reserve a certain number of sorting clerks' places for post- 
 men in the large towns? 
 
 A. I should like to point out that there is a great difference between the 
 work of a sorter and of a sorting clerk. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Yes : a sorting clerk has to do a good deal more postal 
 work than a sorter. He h;is counter work, for instance, has he not? 
 
 A. Y'es, and speaking from experience, I may say that postmen have 
 l>een found to do sorting work very well indeed, but difficulty has been 
 found in fitting them for dealing with the money order and savings bank 
 business. 
 
 Q. Coimter work generally, in fact? 
 
 A. Yes, counter work.
 
 618 Mr. Herbert Joyce. 
 
 Q. But could we not meet these difficulties by imposing an educationa! 
 
 exuminatiou? 
 
 A. Yes, possibly we miglit. Mr. Walsh put the case in regard to tliis 
 extremely well. Jiis argumenls were strong, and he must have impressed 
 the Coiniiiittee by them, yet the fuct remains that Mr. Walsli himself on two 
 separate occasions was otfeml nomination as a sorting clerk, and that with 
 becoming modesty he declinefl. 
 
 The C.'liairman : I think tlie wages in that case is a drawback. Still, fhe 
 fact remains that a postman ha.s a very small prospect of promotion, has 
 he not? 
 
 A. Yes ; I fe<?l that very strongly indeed. 
 
 Q. Does not your long exiMrience enable you to give this Committee 
 some suggestion as to the means by which this difficulty might be miti- 
 gated? 
 
 A. It is a very difficult subject to deal with, and T do not think I could 
 make any suggestions now ; still. un<|Uestionabh', it is a matter which ought 
 to be faced, and some means should be found of giving more promotion. 
 I do not think it will be a very easy job. 
 
 Q. May 1 ask you to think the matter over a little, and favour us with 
 a memorandum on the subject, which we may Iiave an opportunity of con- 
 sidering'? 
 
 A. Ye.s. 
 
 y. Thank vou. I quite understand you would not wish to answer such 
 a question oil-hand. 
 
 A. I will think the matter over. 
 
 Q. Now we will leave the Brig]it<m c;ise and come to the Stafford case. 
 
 A. Yes. In that ca.se it was stated. I think, that the Pastmaster at 
 Stafford had informed the men thit if they made themselves efficient in 
 their duties and qualifieil for the Civil Service examination they should be 
 recommended for promotion. Yes. the answer to that is, thnt the hi.e 
 Postmaster informed the men that if the men ma^le themselves efficir^nt 
 at their duties, and qualified themselves for the Civil Service e.xaminatin . 
 he would, as vacancie.s arose, give them nominations for sorting clerkships. 
 In order to form a judgment of their chances before the ttvil Service Com- 
 missioners, he ap])e-irs to liave put some of the men through a test examina- 
 tion, and among those who came out bidly were two men, Mountford m.l 
 Powell. They were told that they would not pass the Civil Service ex- 
 amination until they had qualified themselves further. So it would seem 
 to me that the Postmaster did all he could to help them through. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : He had. in fact, a sort of preliminary test examination? 
 
 A. Y'es, in order to see what sort of chances the men had of passing. 
 There was a third postman. Robinson by name, who cime up to the Post- 
 master's standard, and so he got a nomination and passed the Civil Service 
 Commissioners' examination. He has b^en a sorting clerk for nearly tw.i 
 years. 
 
 The Chairman : Before leaving that subject altogether, I should like you 
 to look at a general que-stion which has already been touched upon, with 
 regard to the allegation that promotion is too often due to a man having 
 relations at the top of the office. The witness in his comments on this 
 point suggests that blood relaHons have better chances of appointment 
 than others. 
 
 A. I do not think there is anything in that. I can quite see that there 
 is strong ground for suspicion, and I think I know how the suspicion arises. 
 There is no doubt some difficulty on the point, and it is very undesirable 
 that there should be several relations in one office. But, on the other 
 hand, as I have said, a Postmaster would be an absolute churl if he re- 
 fused to give an appointment to the son of an old Post Office servant who 
 was qualified for the post. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Would you not go a little further, and say that supposing 
 a Postmaster has an excellent officer under him as superintendent or clerk,
 
 Favouritism in Regard to Appointments. 619 
 
 and that officer has a son who is desiring an appointment, -would you not 
 say you see no r«ason why that son should not be nominated? 
 
 A. Yes. I see no reason whatever except that when the son comes up 
 for promotion, if such promotion is not taken absolutely by seniority, there 
 are always those who will say it is a case of favouritism. 
 
 The Ciiairman : The question raised here is not a question of i^omination, 
 but it is a complaint that a large percentage of the higher appointments 
 are held by blood relations? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And vou do not think that that would be found to be borne out bv the 
 facts? 
 
 A. No. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : Presumably the relations of high officers in the Service 
 are rather better educated than the sons of postmen? 
 
 Q. And the better education would be the Ijetter qualification? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 A. Yes ; the sons of jwstmen have not always the same opportunities 
 for education as tlie sons of Postmasters. 
 
 Q. Have you anything else you wish to say on the point of favouritism 
 in regard to appointments? If there is anything I have pas.sed over jier- 
 haps you will say, and we will take that and leave the question of pun- 
 ishments until after the adjournment. 
 
 A. No ; there is nothing more I wish to say on that branch of the 
 question. 
 
 The Chairman : Then we will adjourn for twenty minutes. 
 
 Mr. Walpole (who during the temporary absence of Lord Tweedmouth 
 occupied the ciiair wiien tlie Committee resumed after luncheon) said : 
 
 The witness described certain cases of punishment at Newcastle-on-Tyne, 
 in one of which a postman who was t*:n minutes late was called upon to 
 {jerform 30 minutes' e.xtra duty. Do you know what the rule is? 
 
 A. Yes ; it appears that at Newcastle extra duty has been allowed to 
 accumulate, and that the men have been required t>o work it ofif in times 
 of pressure — to do work, in fact, for wliicli otherwise they would have 
 received overtime payment. Until this evidence was given, tlie exi.stence 
 of such a practice was quite unknown at headquarters, and the Department 
 have given orders to stop it. 
 
 Q. Have given orders that the accumulation of punishment shall be dis- 
 continued ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. There is also an allegation with reference to extra duty as pimishment 
 at election time? Do you Icnow anything about that? They state that they 
 do extra work, such as the election delivery of circulars, cheerfully, ex- 
 pecting to be remunerated for their labours at the overtime rate of pay. 
 
 A. That is the practice which I have said has been ordered to he dis- 
 continued. 
 
 Q. Then was this punishment duty inflicted Ijoth at election times and 
 ordinarv times? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And in both cases you have directed that the practice shall be dis- 
 continued? 
 
 A. Yea. 
 
 Q. Then in the next question the same point is again raised. We haTK 
 the case of a Liverpool pastman fined for every late attendance at the rate 
 of 8d. per hour; if he is late 15 minutes or a part theref)f, he is fined 6d., 
 and if he is late one hour he is fined 8d., and he is specially called upon to 
 work an hour extra in lieu of the hour he has lost. 
 
 A. Yes, that is so at Liverpool ; but what this witness complains of 
 specially is that the men are punished twice and even thrice for the same 
 offence. The case he puts is one of late attendance, and he complains that 
 the man is punished first by fine, secondly by loss of increment, and thirdly
 
 620 Mr. Hkrbert Joyce. 
 
 hy the loss of good conduct stripes. I do not think it m meant tluit he 
 is dejirivoil of llie^f tilings, hut tliat they ar arruMCMl. Now there in (>h\ iously 
 f^reat confusion as to the increment and the good conduct striixj. The goo<l 
 conduct strijH; has to l>e earned, ojid one condition of the earning is re- 
 gularity of attendance. Take a similar case — Uike the case of a gr(K;er. or 
 any ordinary tra<ler, who is fined for adulteration, tlie punishment is a 
 lino, hut the loss of custom which probably follows upon the conviction is 
 a direct conscciucncc of the man's own act, and lias nothing to do witli the 
 penalty intlicted by the magistrate Now this is the came with the post- 
 man. It is not the fiict tluit the failure to earn increment or a good 
 conduct strij)e is the punishment for late attendance, it is merely the result 
 of the nu-m's own act, and the necessary consequence of his having imposed 
 ujjon him the tine for irregularity of attendance. 
 
 Q. In fact, regularity of attendance being one of the conditions laid down 
 for the receipt of increment, it has been impossible to avoid a duplication of 
 |iuiiishMK-ut, unless, indeed, late attendances were not punished at all? 
 
 A. That is so. 
 
 Q. A man nmst be fined or punished in some way for being late. Is it 
 the fact that for a certain number of late attendancej? it follows that he 
 cannot receive the certificate which is necessary to entitle him to his in- 
 crement? 
 
 A. Exactly. Before he can get his increment he has to get from the 
 Post Office authorities a certificate. Tliat certificate must be to the effect 
 that he has given satisfaction by his conduct and been regular in his attend- 
 ance during the preceiling year. 
 
 Q What is the general po-ition as to irregularity of attendance ? Is it tl e 
 fact that 16 late attendances in a year disqualify a man from getting his 
 certificate? 
 
 A. I am not prepared to say that exactly. I do not think any number 
 is fixed. I think the DL'jtirtmi'nt is always very indulgent, and Ijefore any 
 I)enalty is infiictwl, there must have been serious irregularity of attendance. 
 
 Q. Now we will jiass on to another point. We have some specific in- 
 stances of what are considered to l>e cases of harsh punishment. There is, 
 for instance, the case of William Woodhouse, a postman of Norwich, who 
 was apjwinted in the year 1872. 
 
 A. It is very difficult to deal witii ca.ses wliich are practically ancient 
 history, and this complaint I see goes back a good many years. I have here 
 the record of Woodhouse's case, and I think the Department will come to the 
 conclusion that it is one not so much of harshness of treatment as of long 
 suffering. 
 
 Q. On the part of the Department. (Laughter). 
 
 A. Yes. long suffering on the part of the Department. Here is Woodhouse's 
 record : — In 1878. two days" suspension for irregular attendance, he having 
 been 42 times late in one quarter. In 1880, three days' suspension, having 
 been late no less than 173 times during the year. He was then stated to 
 be " far from a good letter-carrier, very troublesome to the inspector, his 
 manner almost amounting to insubordination, and setting a bad example to 
 the younger postmen.'" In 1882 he absented himself from duty without 
 leave. He was visited by the medical officer, and certified to be suffering 
 from the effects of intoxication. He was grossly insubordinate to the Postmaster, 
 and set him at defiance. La'^er ou, at an interview with the,'surveyor. he was also 
 very insubordinate. His di-missal was recommended, but with great — I had 
 almost said undue — leniency, it was decided to give him onemore trial. In 1S89 
 he was cautioned by the Postmaster for insubordinate conduct to the inspector. 
 In ]8?1 the Postmaster was unable to recommend him for the good conduct 
 stripe. In 1892 the same was the case. The Committee will be glad to 
 hear that in 1834 there was a marked improvement; it is still maintained, 
 and he has now been recommended for good conduct stripes.
 
 Good^Conduct Stripes. 621 
 
 Q. Then it is utterly untrue that for the last 17 or 18 years Woodhouse's 
 rareer has been of the mast exemplary description 1 
 
 A. Absolutely. 
 
 Q. What have you to say as to the case of Saimders? 
 
 A. In 1886 Saunders was fined three days' pay and cautioned for using 
 profane and filthy laungage. In 1891 the Postmaster reported that as his 
 general conduct had not been satisfactory, he could not recommend him for 
 a good conduct stripe. In 1892 the surveyor informetl him that he could not 
 then recommend him for a stripe, but he should be pleiised to do so when 
 he obtained a good report as to his character and general efficiency. Subse- 
 quently inquiry showed him to be improving, and in 1894 the Postmaster 
 reported of him favourably. Tlie surveyor, however, thought that another 
 vear should elapse, and in the end recommended — a recommendation which 
 lias been approve<l — that Saundors .slionld havej| three good conduct stripes, 
 as from the 1st July, 1895. 
 
 (.}. Three good conduct stripes, did you say? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Sir A. Godley : To receive the three altogether — is that usual? 
 
 A. Well, there has l)een an improvement in his conduct. He is now certified 
 to be of good conduct, and liaving served 15 years, he is in point of service 
 eligible for them. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But he has not served 15 years without a blemish? 
 
 A. Xo, still he has served 15 year.*. 
 
 Q. Then it is utterly untrue that as alleged he has 17 years' service as a 
 postman with an unblemished record? 
 
 A. ^bsolu'cly. I think that iliat ailotiation is iii.ide in Woodhouse's case. 
 
 Q. No, it is Saunders' case also : he has low .served 17 years, and it is 
 suggested that the only instance wherein he may have incurred the displeasure 
 of these in authority was in 1895 10 years ago, when one of the postmen 
 was charged with coming off his delivery in a state of intoxication. Tlie 
 postmnn in question ma<le a charge against the chief clerk of being intoxi- 
 cated on several occasions. Saimders was sent for to give evidence in the 
 case, and it was reported .'•ubsequently that he had been heard to make usa 
 of obscene language in the sorting office, and at that time he was fined three 
 davs' wages. 
 
 Q. And you say that that man h:is now received three good conduct 
 stripes? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And can you reconcile it with your conscience that they should be 
 given him after your statement? 
 
 A. I am very sorry to say I cannot. 
 
 Q. But thev have been given him? 
 
 A. Yes, as 'from the 1st July. 1895. 
 
 Q. Do vou think it was right that he shouM receive tliree good conduct 
 stripes? 
 
 A. To use your words, sir, I cannot reconcile my conscience to it. 
 (Laughter). 
 
 Q. And this case of hardship therefore resolves itself into one of great 
 indulgence apparently ? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q, Then we come to the case of A. E. Carter, of Norwich, 
 
 A. Yes. This is a case in which it was asserted that the stripe was 
 arreste<l for a misdelivery of letters in 1891. I have inquired into the facts, 
 and I find that this wa-s not one ca.se. but many cases of misdelivery. He 
 was reported to be extremely careless, and that it was impossible to recom- 
 mend him for a good conduct stripe. Recently, however, he has very much 
 improved, and has been recommended for one, but I am sorry to say that his 
 conduct since not having been altogether satisfactory, it is doubtful whether 
 the recommendation can be approved. Since this evidence was given, and
 
 622 Mr. Herbert Joyce. 
 
 lie Btieing his Bainc in ])rtnt apjKars to liave turned his lieud, and I under- 
 stand tliat lie Ihis been tlaiintiiig In-fore liix iu8iJector wiiat this Curninittea 
 will do for him. Now, the Ciiiniiiittee will, of course, understand that the 
 stronger the inlluenco he has, or thinks he hiia, at his ba<ck, the more im- 
 portant it is to show that nothing hut good conduct will secure good con- 
 duct Hlrij)eH. I wish it to be impressed upon the (."ommittoe that accord- 
 ingly this man's name has been struck oif the list of recipients, at all event* 
 ft)r the present. 
 
 At this stage Lord Twcedmouth returned and took up the examination 
 of tlje witness. 
 
 Q. We come now to the case of a man named Jordan, at Tor<iuay, wbicb 
 Wius put forward as a typical case of i)unishment for late attendance. 
 
 A. That case sjjeaks for itself. The attendance was very irregular, in- 
 <lecd, and tiio man could not therefore be granted either the increment or the 
 good conduct strii>es, which are only given in the case of regular attendance. 
 Q. The witness goes on to .s;iy that this man's increment was arrested two 
 years, and that when it was granted lie received an increment of only !«., 
 where<is he was entitled, as he thought, to 2s. 
 
 A. The explanation of that is very simple. When the increment was 
 arrested the man was only Is. short «)f the maximum scale. (laughter). 
 
 t^. Is there any general rule with regard to the numl>er of late attendances 
 allowwl ? 
 
 A. There is a rule, but I am not sure that it is a general rule. It pro- 
 Italily varies slightly in,ditTerent olHces, I'liere is an objection to laying 
 down an absohitf rule, because there may be many cases in which a man 
 may have been 20 times very late in the year, and whose attendance therefore 
 would certainly not be good, while there might be other cases in which a 
 man miglit have been 25 times late, and yet, on the whole, have ma^le a good 
 attendance. The headqmirters staff allow a certain latitude to local authori- 
 ties in granting an allowance in this resi>ect. 
 
 Mr. Wal])ole : Is it not a fact that the headquarters staflF, while allowing 
 absolute discretion to Postmasters in the matter, has suggested to them 
 tliat 16 late attendances in the day-time, or 20 in the niglit-time should Ije 
 regarded as j)rima fucir the ninib.-r wMdi siiiinld operate to stop a man's 
 increment? 
 A. Yes, that is so. 
 
 Q. And has that been embodied in a circular which lias been issued? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 The Chairman : I suppose you also consider there is not only a difference 
 between one late attendance and another, but you also consider the circum- 
 stiinces under which a man is late? 
 
 A. Y'es, we consider all the circumstances. One man may be a few 
 minutes late, and may u.se all his exertions to recover the time, while another 
 man may treat it as a matter of indifference. 
 
 Q. Tlien you unhesitatingly assort that generally in the Department great 
 discrimination is observed in judging between the causes and nature of the 
 various late attendances? 
 
 A. In exceptional cases, yes. Of course as a general rule, a late attend- 
 ance is a late attendance, so it mi'st be a very exceptional case in which an 
 excuse is accepted. 
 
 Q. Then following on the same subject, we have here a case of a man 
 named Briers, a postman of Loughborough, who was put on to do an ex- 
 cessive amount of punishment duty by having to take the work of a postman 
 who was absent on sick leave. 
 
 A. I have inquired into that. The facts are these : On December 2nd, 
 18S4, a postman was absent en sick leave, and no substitute being available. 
 Briers was called upon to work off the ext-a duty he had incur -ed through 
 late attendance. It was a case of emergency, or he would not have been re- 
 quired tn do so on a Sunday. Briers has been seen. He says that during
 
 An Ad eavy Punishment. 623 
 
 his service of eight yearS; he never had any other cause of complaint, he 
 and ether postmen having always been treated with kindness and considera- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. This does seem to be a very large set-off to a late attendance amomiting 
 to 40 minutes. Surely the man ought not to have been required to do threa 
 hourh and tifteen minutes' extra duty as a set-off to hite attendance amount- 
 ing in the aggregate to 40 minutes. 
 
 A. Yes, it is very heavy, indeed. 
 
 Q. Have you any special remark to make on this subject? 
 
 A. If I were asked, 1 should say it was far too heavy. As regards the 
 remark of the witness that the men had held a meeting, and been quite in- 
 dignant about this punishment being meted out, I am afraid unless that is 
 explained, it will give rise to some misapprehension. No sjwcial meeting 
 of the postmen was held. He incidentally mentioned the case at an ordinary 
 meeting of the local branch of the Postmen's Federation, and he adds, had 
 he known that it was intended to bring it untler the notice of this Committea 
 or to take any action upon it, he would not have mentioned it at all. 
 
 The Chairman : I must, however, say in my opinion it is rather a notable 
 instance? 
 
 A. Yes, it is a very notable instance. I think it is a very excessive pun- 
 ishment, and far more than ought to be impa^jed. 
 
 Q. Then, there is the case of W. E. Jones, postman, of Oldham, who had 
 two 8trii)es withdrawn on the charge of losing a registered packet. 
 
 A. Yes, that is so ; he was deprived of two good conduct stripes for drop- 
 ping a registered letter. Of cnurse, to drop a registered letter is a very 
 serious matter, but he would not have been deprived of his stripes for that 
 alone. As a fact, ho had only just before l)een pimished (in May, 1893), 
 for losing a post-card while on his rounds, when he was reported for losing 
 a registered letter. There is not the slightest ground for saying this post- 
 man liad no opportunity of explHiiiini; before the verdirt was tliven. 
 
 Q. I 8Ui)ix)8t' there is no question ne did lose the parcel himself? 
 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Apparently it was ff)und in quite another direction to his walk, and 
 it was brought in by anotI;er postman? 
 
 A. Yes, that might be so ; he probably dropped it, and it was picked up 
 by somebody else, who handed it to the other postman. With regard to 
 the statement that he was not heard before the verdict was given, I sliould 
 like to .say a few words. It is not the caso that he has had no oppor- 
 tunity of giving an explanation on paper. It would be a very .serious thmg 
 to say it was the practice of the Department to punish a man without 
 hearing him in his own defence. As a matter of fact, in this case an explana- 
 tion was givea on the 3rd August, and the verdict was not given until the 
 28th August, therefore I am afriid 1 must say that in this respect the 
 witness was not accurate. 
 
 Q. Then the postman did have an opportunity of explaining? 
 
 A. Yes ; I have the document here in my hand. As I say, he made an ex- 
 planation on the 3rd August, and the decision was not given in his case 
 until 25 days later. 
 
 Q. Now, there is a very extraordinary statement made here as to a 
 Postmaster acting as a matrimonial agent. Would it be possible for him 
 to do so? 
 
 A. 1 do not think so. Of course we interfere with liberty as little as 
 possible, and we have certainly a number of appointments which Post- 
 masters are prohibited holding, on the ground that they are objectionable. 
 I do not know that tliat of matrimonial agent is one of the appointments 
 which is on contemplation when the rule was laid down. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : I do not think that the allegation in tliis case is that the 
 Postmaster acted as a matrimonial agent.
 
 624 Mr. HtuiJERT Joyce. 
 
 A. No, I think iioL. Still, 1 :iiii ;»fi;iiil that tliere is a caso of a Post 
 master in the Ndith who acted as u in.itriiiioniai agent to a very Lir;.'i; 
 exUnt indeed. H(! iHodiieed a book a sliort uiuut ago. in wliicli lie kept u 
 register of 200 ninniages whii;h he had taken jxirt in bringing about. 
 
 The Cliaiiinau : He appears to be, tlen, a kind of succesior to the Gretna 
 Green bliicksiMith. (Laughter.) Now, ia it a fact that tlio nien are kept 
 waiting a long time for the award of their stripes? 
 
 A. Yes, 1 am afraid we have been very guilty in that matter. 1 do not 
 think tliL-rc h is U-en so nmch cxiit-dition in regard to it as there might have 
 bvrn at headtpiartors. 
 
 Q. If it the practice, as .siiggest.'d by this witness, to keep a man wait- 
 ing for his stripe as a sort ol inducement to gnod behaviour? 1 think tlje 
 man said in liis evidence that "It was held like a sword over their heads. " 
 
 A. No, 1 e.\clude that from my statement. A man cannot liave a good 
 conduct stripe until he has deserved it. uad when he Ikus earned it, tlien he 
 is recommended for it. It certainly ii kept as a sword hanging over In- 
 head until it lias been earned. 
 
 Q. lint after the striins has Iteen absolutely earned, is it then witliheiil 
 for a certain time and not recommended, the Postmaster saying, "1 do nr)t 
 thmk your conduct altogether satisfacUjry. but if yfiu are good, then in 
 six montlus I will recommeml you for the stripe"? 
 
 A. The man must tirst establish a character for good conduct l)efore lie 
 can be r>^ported as entitled to the stri[>e, but as so<jn iis he has establislied 
 that character, then he ought to have it at once. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : But it must be a character for five continuous years? 
 
 A. That is the rule, but it is not rigitily insisted upon. I could instance 
 many cases in which the full |>eriod of live years has not be-.n insisted upon. 
 
 The Chairman : Tlien we come to the case of a man name<l Nevius, a 
 postman at tJatesheail. In this case tlie comjjlaint is raised that it Ls u<it 
 fair to punish a man for misconduct unless you give liim the name of the 
 witness upon whose testimonv he has been adjiidged guilty. I do not 
 think there is any dispute in tiiis M.^se as to the guilt. 
 
 A. No; he was rolling about in the ])rincii)il thoroughfare (Low Fell) 
 at a quarter-past three in the afternoon in a .state of intoxication, and Ic 
 was then in uniform. 
 
 Q. I do not think tliat the justice of the acticm taken in the case wa'* 
 disputeil. 
 
 A. Then I do not think that the giving of the name would be material 
 when the facts are not disputed. Undoubtedly, it was a very serious 
 offence. 
 
 i^'r. Walpole: I belif^vo that some very sensiblo jiostman wh • . 
 A^itness was dealing with this c's.e. made the remark. "You are standing 
 up too much for the boozers."' (laughter.) 
 
 A. Y'es. And I am afraid I h:ive had that c!:arge made against myself. 
 (Renewed laughter.) 
 
 Q. Nevins seems to consider that be was unfairly d^alt with. But is it 
 not a fact that he behaved most disgracefully? 
 
 A. Certainly; lie was in uniform, and he was rolling along the- thorough" 
 fare in the afternoon in a stite of intoxication. 
 
 The Chairman : A])art from that case, there also seems to have been a 
 complaint that the Department receives complaints about men from out- 
 side, and that everything so told them is taken as gospel, while anything 
 that the man may bring forward to repudiate the charge the Department 
 looks upon askance. 
 
 A. There is only one word which will really express my feelings about 
 Nhat complaint, and that is '" Rubbish !" 
 
 Q. The next case brought forward was that of a man named Etheridge. 
 ..'ho was deprived of his strij^es for an offence committed while he was 
 svjiv on leave ?
 
 The Drink Question. 625 
 
 A. We cannot find any record as to this case, but at the same time, I 
 seem to have a recollection of it. I will, however, take the facts a.s stated. 
 If it is the case I am thinking of, the deprivation of the stripe was the 
 act of the headquarters, and was not the act of the local authorities, who 
 did not recommend that the man should not have his stripes taken away. 
 If I remember aright he created a perfect scandal, and it was thought right 
 that a man who had conducted himself in the way he did. should not wear a 
 good conduct stripe. 
 
 Mr. Walpole : The man ^\•as actually t.iken before a magistrate, was he 
 not? 
 
 A. Yes, he was. 
 
 Q. Don't you think that mider no circumstances whatever a man ought 
 to receive a good conduct stripe fur five yeai-s after he had so acted? 
 A. Yes, I think so. 
 
 Q. A point is made in comparing the pimishment meted out to sorting 
 clerks for their delincjuencies, ami those imposed upon postmen? The latter 
 are looked ui)on as far too heavy, while it is suggested that tlie sorting 
 clerks are tlealt with comparatively liglitly for an offence which would 
 be heavily visited upon a jKistman. What liave vou to say with regard to 
 tliat? 
 
 A. There is no grouad whatever lor the suggestion. 1 quite admit 
 that it may to the postmen seem to be somewliat unjust, and for this 
 rea.son : timt in theii- case the pmiislunent is more api)arent. If you take 
 the case of a sorting clerk, for instance, the ordinary punishment would 
 be a suspension of pay, or a reduction of class, but if you come to the jwst- 
 man, there is no higher class to which he can sui-ceed. He lias good con- 
 duct strii)es under certain conditions, but he m.iy fail to earn these, and 
 if for intoxication tliey are .susiK-nded, and I e loses his increment as well, 
 of course he feels the punishment immediately. The loss to tlie sorting 
 clerk is more in the form of loss of promotion in the future, and therefore 
 tlie punishment is more immediately apparent in one case than in the 
 other. 
 
 Q. In supjwrl of the argument the witness put for\var<l on this ground, 
 he compared the c;ises of a sorting clerk named Freeling, and a postman 
 named Weljster. Can you give us any information on that? 
 
 A. Yls, I should like to make an expl.iiuition in regard to that. In 
 the ca.se of Webster, the punishment hanlly seems to have erred on the 
 side of severity. At any rate, from the Post Office point of view the wil- 
 ful delay of a letter is a very serious ofifence, and one for wliich the law has 
 provided heavy penalties. And not only thi.<!, but the case was a })eculiarly 
 bad one. In order to sav^; themselves troulde Webster and another post- 
 man concerted together to deliver one another's letters, and when found out 
 concocted an artfully-contrived tale in order to cscaj)e punishment. Thus 
 far both men were eiually to blame, but Webster, besides being older than 
 the other one, was the more guilty in this: — 1st, that the letters which he 
 gave to his comrade to deliver he had delayeil from a previous delivery, 
 and 2nd, that the lettens which he received from his comrade, and had un- 
 dertaken to deliver, he did nut deliver, but took b.ick to the post office, 
 and surreptitiously inserted among others waiting delivery. But he was 
 not dismissed on that account. In 1884 and 1885 his increment was arrested 
 for unsatisfacttiry conduct and irregular attendance. In 1886 he was re- 
 jwrted for intoxic.ition. and the same may be said <if this offence on the 
 part of a pfistnian as of a wilful delay of letters. His conduct, however, 
 improved. On February, 1391, he received his first stri[)e, in October, 
 1891, his second, and in .June, 1892. his third. He seems, therefore, to 
 liave V>een treated with great leniency rather than with harshness. 
 
 Q. I do not think the allegation is that Webster was too lightly punished. 
 A. 1 t'mught it was put forward as a case of hardship. 
 A. No ; a comparison was drawn between the offences of which Webster 
 was guilty and the punishment he received for them, and the offences of
 
 626 Mr. Herbert'.Toyce. 
 
 which Freeling was guilty and the punishment lie received, and it was sug- 
 gested that, udniitting both to b« guilty, tho puniBlinieut received by the 
 sorting clerk was niucli ligiiter than tliat received by the ftostinan. 
 
 A. Yes ; that is so. It is a ple^uiure to nie to l)e able to add tiiat 
 Webster's conduct since lias greatly improved, and I think he ha« now got 
 his good conduct 8trij>es back. 
 
 (j. Has ho all three now? 
 
 A. Yes. There is one ot'ier point I should like to mention before I 
 leave the oise. It is obvicnis that thia occurred many yearn ago, for the 
 date is given as XovcndnT, 1890. 
 
 (j. 1 do not Uike it tiiat it is a complaint qua tlie treatment of Webster ; 
 it is only given as a comparison of the treatment accorded to the two 
 classes ? 
 
 A. Well, with regard to tlie case of Freeling, I should like to Ki.j there 
 is no evidence of wiliul misconduct. On the contrary, the mistakes are 
 just such as might bo e.x{wcted from a young beginner. One hour's extra 
 duty is tho usual punishment, and it appears to have been imposed with 
 persistent regularity. He has not lieen promoted. He is still on tlie claas 
 in which he stood wIilu he entered tlie Liverpool Post Oltice. It is pro- 
 bable that in withdrawing him from the sorting oOice and emjjloying nim 
 in turn with other junior clerks on writing duties, the late Postmaster 
 wished to give him an ojiportunity of gaining exj>erience which would be 
 useful in an examination he was about to imdergo. 
 
 Q. You treiit Freeling's conduct as of a very much lighter character than 
 that of the jxistman? 
 
 A. No doubt. In his case there was no misconduct stated. His offence 
 was simply a mistiike — serious mistakes, no doubt — but they were punished 
 in the way that all such mistakes are punished, by imposing hours of extra 
 duty. 
 
 Q. Ls there anything else you wish to say on the question of punishment? 
 
 A. No, I think not. There was one case brouglit forward, that of a 
 man named Dain. In that it is made to appear that he was deprived of one 
 of three gootl conduct stripes for bringing out a .sharp expression when he 
 stumbled on the staircase. No doubt he did use a sharp expression. The 
 report in his case is that he was said to be the worse for drink, and that 
 he used very objectionable language, and as we do not know the exact 
 wotds, I will accept t!ie "sharp" expression he admits having used. That 
 was not the only otfence. He sliould liave reached the house &t which he 
 had to make the delivery at 2.30, but he did not reach it tmtil 3.50, leav- 
 ing it to conjecture where he had been in the meantime. Even that is not 
 all, for on the following day he was again reported under the influence 
 of drink, and unfit to make the 1.30 delivery. That is the explanation of 
 this case. 
 
 TTie Chairman : Thank you. I think that is all we have to a.sk you. 
 
 The witness then withdrew.
 
 The Aberayron Case. 627 
 
 Mb. E. B LEWIN HILL. 
 Controller of the Provincial Staff, was next re called for the p\npose of 
 supplementing the evidence which he gave before the Committee. 
 
 The Chairman : You have one or two words to say with regard to the 
 AV>era_VTon case, which was brought l>efore U5 by one of the witnesses? 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that this case was purely as a hypothetical case ; 
 that it was not stated by the witness that it was an actual one, but that it 
 was put forward as a case that might occur? 
 A. I did not understand that. 
 
 Q. I think Mr. Walpole said to the witness: "Do you know this case of 
 vour own knowledge?' And the witness replied, "I put it forward as a 
 livpothetical case"; and then 1 asked him "if there was a postman at the 
 present time anywhere doing 48 hours a week for a wage of 7s. ?" To that 
 lie replied, " it was stated that was the case in Ireland, and therefore it 
 migtit occur in other parts of the country." I then asked him, " Do you 
 l)elieve there is a postman in this country doing it?" and he replied, "I 
 do not. I put it as a hypothetical case, liut I have been informed that it 
 has occurrwl in Ireland. ' 
 Witness : Perhaps it is not worth wliile going into the matter now. 
 The Chairman : We had b)etter liKir what you have to say, as you hare 
 inquired into it. 
 
 A. Well, it was stated that a postman at Aberayron, father of five chil- 
 dren, gets 7s. \)er week for 48 hours' hard work, and that a telegraphist 
 at the same place gets 40s. for 48 hours' work. I do not believe it is a 
 fact ; such a case is certainly not known in the Secretary's olfice. Inquiry 
 made on the above matter ^t Aberayron shows : (1) Tliat there is no post- 
 man there working 48 liours a week, or receiving wages of 7s. a week ; 
 (2) that the only inarrie:! man employed is dolin Williams, rural auxiliary, 
 from AberajTou to Llanarth ; and (3) that tliere is no " teiegrapliist " there 
 at all, l)Ut merely an assistant for postal and telegi-aphic work (Miss Powell) 
 who is jKiid 15s., not 40s. a weok. .loiin Williams is 33 years of age; Le has 
 tive children, and has been employed as rural auxiliary from Aberayron to 
 Llanarth with wages of IDs. a week since the 3rd Septeml)er, 1893. His 
 duties occupy froTu 10.40 a.m. to 2.30 p.m. (5 hours 50 minutes) daily, ex- 
 cept Sunday, when he performs no duty at all, and a copy of the form 
 (surveyor's. No. 83) signed by him at the time of his first emploj-ment is 
 enclosed. Williams i.s a shoemaker by trade, and until three years ago 
 was a sergeant in the county militia ; he has had no other Post Office duties 
 than those descrilied above, and it lias been ascertained that he actually 
 receives the wages of 10s. a week. Another point I wish to touch upon is 
 the evidence of Mr. J. F. Ray, second-class sorter in the newspaper branch. 
 He s;iid : — "I cannot rememl)er that any gentleman from the newspaper 
 section was asked to give evidence before the Committee as regards the 
 value of his work. I never heard it mooted that any gentleman was called 
 upon to give evidence upon that." Now, "The Post," which is the organ 
 of the Fawcett Association, iu the number for 24th May. 1890, speaking of 
 the proceedings of the Committee in question, made the following sfcitement : 
 — " Everyone will remember how courteously and patiently the Departmental 
 Committee under Mr. Lewin Hill's presidency allowed members of the sort- 
 ing staff to describe exhaustively the quality of the work in tlieir respective 
 branches, and the classification which in their opinion would fairly remun- 
 erate the officers engaged in its performance." As a matter of fact, four 
 sorters in the newsjxiper branch gave evidence before that Committee. 
 
 The Chairman : I think you have some comparison to make as to the 
 present position of the staff, and whit it was h)efore the Fawcett revision, 
 taken from tlie last report on the Post Office?
 
 628 :\Ir. K. R. Lkw rv Iln.i. 
 
 A. Yes. I wish to direct the attention of the Committ«e to the last re- 
 port of the Postmaster-General (for the year 1895), jjages 5 to 13. That 
 gives the staff of the Department clivi(le<l into sorters. telegrapliist«, and 
 postiiien, anil there is also a tabuhir statement showing what has been 
 expen<Ie<l since the ye<ir 1880 in imj)roving tlie pay and position of the 
 several branches of the manipulative staff. The stfitement shows as fol- 
 lows : — 
 
 "Tlio total expenditure thus incurred was stated to have been nearly 
 £750.000. 
 
 " But this merely represents the increase of expenditure on the members 
 of the statf at the times of each of the several revisions, and therefore 
 much understates the increased expenditure now being incurred. 
 
 "Thus, Mr. Fawcett's revisions of 1881 appear in the statement in the 
 Annual Report as costing — 
 
 For indoor statf, £210.000 
 
 For outdoor statf, 110.000 
 
 Total. .... £320,000 
 
 " On the present numbers these revisions are now probably costing — 
 
 For indoor staff. £440.000 
 
 For outdoor stidf. 203,000 
 
 £643.000 
 
 " Again, Mr. Raikes' revisions of 1890-91 are stoted U) have cost — 
 
 For indoor staff. £265.000 
 
 For outdoor staff, 126,000 
 
 £391,000 
 " On the present numbers these revisions are now probably costing- 
 
 For indoor staff. £556,000 
 
 For outdoor staff. 156.000 
 
 £512.000 
 
 " The result is that the two general revisions of Mr. Fawcett in 1881-2, 
 and of ^Ir. RAikes in 1890-1. together with the smaller revisions shown 
 on page 9 of the Postniaster-GeneraFs report, are probibly costing at the 
 present time about £1.200,000 a year, and not about £750,000 a year."" 
 
 Mr. Smith : Can you tell us what is the total of the wage bill of the 
 Department ? 
 
 A. I cannot. 
 
 The Chairman : Have you calculated what the increased profit to the De- 
 partment has been? (Laughter.) 
 
 A. No ; but I know that our profits have been going down. There is 
 one other point on which I wish to make a statement. On the second day 
 of my evidence I handed in a computation of what would be the cost of 
 certain changes in the scales of pay. and it was based on the assumption 
 that the average service in the postmen's class was 20 years. I stated at 
 the time that it was pure assumption on my part that that was the average. 
 Since then we have taken various measures in order to arrive at an opinion 
 as to what is the average duration of the service of men on the postmen's 
 staff, and I have here a return which is confined to the E.G. District, which
 
 Retirals — Dismissals — Transfers. 
 
 629 
 
 dates back as far as 1870. 
 return : — 
 
 This I propose to put in. Appended is the 
 
 POSTMEN, E.G. DISTRICT, LONDON. 
 
 On the 1st January, 1870, there ■were 316 postmen in the E.G. District 
 of London. On the 1st January, 1886, only 56 of these were still on the 
 postmen's class. 
 
 The remaining 260 had left the class for the reasons given below : — 
 
 131 had retired on pension or gratuity. 
 43 had died. 
 
 53 had resigned or been dismissed. 
 33 had been promoted or transferred. 
 The average service of these men as postmen was as follows: — 
 
 Years. Months. 
 
 25 7 
 
 19 4 
 
 8 7 
 
 19 
 
 Of the 131 who retired, 
 
 ,, 43 who died. 
 
 ,, 53 who resigned or were dismissed, - 
 ,, 33 who were promoted or transferred, - 
 
 The average service for the whole of the 250 postmen who have left the 
 Service was 20 years 3 months. 
 
 The average service at the present time of the 36 postmen who are still 
 on the class is 30 years, and it is probable that they will remain for 5 
 years 5 months more, thus raising the average to 35 years 5 months. 
 
 If we then include these 56 men with the 260 who have left the Service, 
 we find that the average length of service of the postmen is 22 years 11 
 months. 
 
 Of the 53 postmen who are entered as having resigned or been dismissed, 
 it is found that 30 were dismissed, 18 resigned to escape dismissal, and 5 
 resigned, presumably to better their position. 
 
 I am having similar returns from the provinces, but tliey are not quite 
 ready. I think, however, that when they are worked out it will be found 
 that the average service is about 20 years. 
 
 The Ghairman : This concludes the evidence for the day. We will meet 
 again on Monday next at the Westminster Palace Hotel, there not now 
 being any room in the House of I/ords available for this Committee. 
 
 fJ'^dt
 
 REJOINDER LODGED WITH THE (X)MMITTEE ON BEHALF OF 
 LONDON POSTMEN. 
 
 London, May 27th, 1896. 
 To tho Right Hon. Lonu Twebomouth, 
 
 Chainiiiin of the Conunittce on Post Office Establishment*. 
 My Lord and Uentleiiien of tho Comniittee, — 
 
 Wo l^g to submit for your considejation the following rejoinder to 
 tlie DepartiiR-ntal eviilonce, but before doing so desire U) tender you our 
 iiiartie.st thanks for tlio courteous aud patient hearing accorded U) us as 
 rti)rfcsentatives of postmen of the United Kingdom. 
 In dealing with the London ijuestions first, 
 
 WAGES. 
 
 We note witii great ple:isure ti.e suggestion by our I'ontroUcr tiiat we 
 should be placed ou an e (Ual fuoting with the .second-class sorters, and 
 whilst we in every way appreciate the value of Mr. liadcock's statements, 
 we are astouudeil and grieved that another Departmental witness, Mr. 
 Lewin Hill, should, in presumably rebutting the evidence of the provincial 
 jtostmen, go out of his way to belittle and minimise the claiins of the 
 London men by unfair comparison with ( arter Pater^on's carriers and rad- 
 way porters. We endeavoured in our evidence to draw as few comparison! 
 outside the Service as possible, feeling assured that liaving a class in the 
 Service so nearly Hpproaching our own- viz., the sorters — tliat to go 
 outside was both necdk'sa and unnecessary. We confidently hope that your 
 Ctnimittee, in its <lecision, will be guided more by a desire to se* content- 
 ment in a Service where the " market value " policy has so long l>een tried, 
 and, as wo have endeavoured to prove, given rise to the greater portion of 
 the abuses and anomalies that are still in existence. 
 
 HOLIDAYS. 
 We notice that the question of three weeks' holidays was not dealt with 
 in the rebutting evidence submitted, and we earnestly hope that the omission 
 of this import<int question signifies tliat postmen will l)e granted the same 
 amount of leave of absence as is enjoyed by second-class sorters, tele- 
 graphists, messengers, and other bodies employed on less arduous duties. 
 
 PROMOTION. 
 In regard to this question we would say that, although no definite 
 promise was forthcoming as to the ratio of promotions to the postmen's 
 staff, we are still of the opinion that postmen should be entitled, with the 
 sorting staff, to an equal jiroportion of the liiglier appointments. 
 
 STATEMENT BY J. P. WORTH. 
 
 With reference to this case, which was stated in the rebutting evidence 
 to be " shifty, unreliable, and careless," we subjoin herewith Mr. Worth's 
 statement in self-defence : — 
 
 " In answer to the first charge, I must say it is of no real substance, as 
 I have always continued on a steady course. 
 
 " To the cliarge that I am unreliable : when I first received instructions 
 to perform the duties of head postman at New Cross I had to do so under 
 great difficulties, as the instructions were of a vague character. Moreover, 
 I can furnish proofs that I am reliable. I would say that I worked the duty 
 three years continuously, on one occasion during that period going through 
 the Cliristmas pressure satisfactorily. "' (Signed) — J. P. Worth." 
 
 SL"TERNL"^rERARIES. 
 
 We would still i:npress upon you the loss of seniority of this class, and 
 beg to bring under your notice the followine order issued by the Secretary 
 of the Post Office since our* witness gave evidence : — 
 
 "The Secretary ha^ decided in Reg. papers 118396/96 that supemumerarie*
 
 The London Rejoinder. 63l 
 
 blocking vacancies on the classes of sorters, postmen, and porters, shall be 
 allowed to rank as regards choice of duties and annual leave after the men 
 already appoiutetl and l)efore the new entrants on the classes to which they 
 are attached. There will be no separate annual leave list for supernumeraries 
 in future."— Dated 14th April, 189o. 
 
 \Ve beg to point out that this Order in no wise touches the point raised — 
 viz., that this class have in the past taken their seniority with established 
 men l)y date of service, but in some cases this has been altered, and junior 
 men have been placed on the sheet before them. We trust you will give this 
 your favourable consideration. 
 
 AUXILL-miES. 
 
 We note with satisfaction the admission by our Controller that men of 
 this class transferred to the establishment should receive a higlier minimum 
 tlian at present in vogue, and we still assert that in no case should it be less 
 than 24s. per week. 
 
 With regard to the pay of the Hackney men, we maintain that they do 
 not receive the Raikes' scale of pay. Mr. Raikes' scheme makes no mention 
 of the terms "isolated" or "continuous," but simply states that "no collec- 
 tion sliall be paid for at less than sixpence." In proof that our construction 
 of the scheme is the correct one, these men received the sixpence for each 
 of these collections for tliree years after the promulgation of the Raikes' 
 scale, and it was not until after the revision of the duties at Hackney Office 
 that the present rate was brought into vogue. Again, with regard to Mr. 
 Badcock's statement " that no interval of less than ludf-an-hour is booked 
 off " ; this is inconsistent, as no interval of more than 15 minutes occurs 
 between any of these continuous collections. 
 
 With regard to auxiliaries lieing called upon to perform duties in their 
 spare time, whetlier convenient to them or not, it was never intended to 
 convey the iinpre.ssion that orders to that effect were issued from the Chief 
 Office, but that the superintending officers at the several zone offices put 
 this construction upon tliem according to their own wliims, and as these 
 orders are never exliibited to the men they are unable to contradict them. 
 As a further ])roof of this system, at Holloway Office on Boxing Day 
 morning, 1895, there was a large influx of parcels for delivery, and the 
 overseer (Mr. Glover) called for six volunteers to come back and deliver 
 them ; at first none would do so, but after some persuasion two men pro- 
 mised to return ; Hnding no otliers would volunteer, he (the overseer) cut 
 up a number of pieces of paper corresponding to the number of auxiliary 
 postmen on duty, on four of which he wrote the word "on," and com- 
 jxilled the auxiliaries to draw lots, and tiiose who drew the word " on " had 
 to return and take out the parcels, upon threat of not being allowed to 
 resume duty on the next day if they failed to return for the delivery of the 
 parcels ; the names of the four auxiliaries who had to return were, Trew, 
 I..OW, Fauliless, and Weller — notwithstanding the fact that it was Bank 
 Holiday ; and we would emphasise the fact that not a single established 
 man was called upon to take pirt in this lotterj'. 
 
 In asking for the absorption of the auxiliary class into the ranks of the 
 established class, it was suggested that this would be brought about by the 
 assimilation of postal faciHties (in the way of deliveries and collections) 
 over the whole of London to that prevalent in the city at tlie present time, 
 an<l not to only one district as implied by Mr. Badcock's reply. 
 
 EXEMPTION FROM PARCEL DUTIES. 
 We regret that this question was dealt with as a personal grievance, 
 mstead of as a general one. We think that the system of taking averages 
 is unfair and misle;iding. as it is only upon the heaviest walks and during 
 the heavy .season that the grievance exists, more especially in the offices 
 in the various zones.
 
 682 
 
 Tlie J^oudon Rejoinder. 
 
 MINIMUM RATE OF PAY. 
 
 We find tliat tlie Dtpartinoiit arc still introducing casual labour at a 
 lower rate than 6d. per iiour. Tliree telt^Taidi boys — A. Woolnough, High 
 .Street D. ; C M. >Iasoii. Huchester Road C. ; and H. A. Ellner, Regent's 
 Park Road 1).. in tiie Nortli-Wt stern District — are at the present time 
 j)frforming esttblished men's duties of eiglit luiurs daily for 9s. and lOs. 
 per week. Auxiliaries are being aKkod to do e.st;iblished meu'.s duties for a 
 fixed wage of 18s. per Week. At I'-arl's ('<jurt, two established men have 
 been withdrawn from their regular <luties to do the J!xhibition work, while 
 an auxiliary and a "casual" were requested, and consented, to do eight 
 liour's work per day for 18s. per week. This we consider a clear breach of 
 the Raikes' scheme, thut nothing less than 6d. per hour should be the 
 minimum rate of pay for unestabli>hed labour. 
 
 STRIPES. 
 
 With regard to tlie statements of the official witnesses, tliat the delay in 
 issuing strijxjs was solely due to local authorities not making ajjplication for 
 the sanie, we find in the Citv there an; about 30 men who are overdue for 
 stripes, some of whom have fieen waitmg 12 months and over. 
 
 EXtvT.S.SI VE PUXISHM EXT. 
 We attach herewith the olHcial records of Messrs. J. Chapman and W. 
 Howe, who were deprived of their appointments l>ecau.so they were memlx-rs 
 of the Postmen's Union : — 
 
 Record of J- Chapman. 
 
 Date of Keport. 
 
 Subject and BeglHtered Xumb* r 
 of Beport. 
 
 BeRult 
 
 6th July, 
 
 1887. 
 
 Absent from duty without 
 
 Reprimanded and 
 
 
 
 leave, leavinjc his 4-0 p.m. 
 
 cautioned. 
 
 
 
 delivery unproviile<l for. 
 
 
 24th Sept. 
 
 1887. 
 
 Packeil a jiarcel containing 
 • eggs in a K-akini.' condi- 
 tion for Shephenrs Push, 
 whereby a parcel contain- 
 ing a dress was damaired. 
 
 Do. 
 
 Transferred 
 
 from I'adilini^'ton District to 
 
 West District 
 
 
 on 
 
 promoiion to I'nd class Post 
 
 man. 
 
 26th June, 
 
 1890. 
 
 Neglect of Rule 9 of Instruc- 
 tions to Postmen. 
 
 Cautioned. 
 
 27th July, 
 
 1891. 
 
 Date of' ruuishmfnt. 
 
 
 3rd Mar., 
 
 1893 
 
 Neglect of Rule 9 of Instruc- 
 tions to Postmen. 
 
 Do. 
 
 7th July, 
 
 1894. 
 
 MisdeUvcred a letter ad- 
 dressed 13 Beaumont St 
 at 64 High Street. 
 
 Do. 
 
 27th July, 
 
 1S9-1. 
 
 Unpunctual attendance dur- 
 
 Increment deferred 
 
 
 
 ing Increment year. 
 
 three months. 
 
 29th Oct., 
 
 1894. 
 
 Improved attendance dur- 
 
 Increment due 23rd 
 
 
 
 ing past three months. 
 
 July allowed. 
 
 
 
 (383259). 
 
 
 Transferred to 
 
 Paddington and re-transferred 
 
 to West District. 
 
 25th April 
 
 1895. 
 
 Misdeiivered a letter at 2 
 Adam Street. (134357;. 
 
 Cautioned. 
 
 2nd Sept. 
 
 1895. 
 
 Non-compliance with last 
 paragraph of Rule 9 In- 
 structions to Po-tmen. 
 
 Do. 
 
 (Signed) 
 
 H. H. Salmon, District Postmaster. 
 Dated 26th March, 1896.
 
 The London Rejoinder. 
 
 633 
 
 Record of W- Howe. 
 
 Date of Beport. 
 
 Subject and Registered Number 
 of Beport. 
 
 Besult. 
 
 23r Nut. , 1887. 
 
 27//i .Tu'y, 1891, 
 28tli Dec , 1893. 
 
 0th Jan., 1S'.»4. 
 
 23ni June, 1S94. 
 2nd Oct., 1894. 
 
 10th April, 1895. 
 13th April, 1895. 
 
 19th Sept., 189.5. 
 
 Erroneously treating as un- 
 deliveraVile a letter ail- 
 dressetl " Latber," 2 an^l 
 3 Regent Place. 
 
 The letter was plainly ad- 
 dressed. 
 
 Bat", nf Punishimnt. 
 
 Mis Iciivered two letters at 
 11 Hanover Square, W.. 
 althouiih plainly addressed 
 1 1 ilanover ."^()llare, Lt eds. 
 
 M isdclivered letter addressed 
 H()lM.'rt8<jn v^c Hart, (2}) 
 Princes Street, Hanover 
 Stjuare, at ]{obinson and 
 Green s, 9 Princes Street. 
 (3.535). 
 
 Do. do. (214384). 
 
 Pelivered a letter for Messrs. 
 (ieo. Ko^e s «.<; Sons, GO 
 Berners Street (Callers). 
 at the address instead 
 sortinj; to Callers Division. 
 
 Placing a newspaper in 
 letter box at ."»(; PcrLcrs 
 Street contrary to in- 
 strueliims given. 
 
 Placin.' a newsi)riper in 
 letter bo.x at oii IJerners 
 Street instead of taking 
 to the ortiee on first floor 
 as instriicte<l. 
 
 Misdelivering letter instead 
 of eniorr-ing it "Gone 
 away." (32j280). 
 
 Seen and seriously 
 cautioned. 
 
 ScriousV cautioned 
 and warn* d. 
 
 Cautioned. 
 
 Do. 
 Do. 
 
 Seriously cau- 
 tioned. 
 
 Two hours' extra 
 duty, and cau- 
 tioned. 
 
 Cautioned. 
 
 LATE ATTENDANCE. 
 
 We view with regret tliat the rule laid down by Mr. Walpole, that 16 
 was the limit of late attendances, has not been brought into operation. 
 
 Trusting that tliese matters will have the careful attention of your Lord- 
 ship's Committee. On Ueh ilf of tlie Postmen's Federation, I am, 
 
 Your obelicnt .servant, 
 
 C. CiiURcmiET.n, General Secretary.
 
 THE PROVINCIAL REJOINDER. 
 
 Letter-Carriers' Bi-anch, Post Office, 
 Glasgow, June, 1896. 
 
 To the Right Hon Loni) Tweedmouth, Chairman, 
 
 Committee on Poist Office Establishments. 
 
 My Loi:i), — After the courteous and patient liearing accorded to 
 the witreEses of tlie Postmen's I'^ederation , it wouhi be imjiroper on my 
 part to seek, willioiit weiglity reasons, to again engage the attention of 
 ycur Con)miltee. But some poinds liave since been introduced in the Re- 
 butting Evidence which call for further comment — particularly further 
 comment and explanation from tlie postmen's point of view. To that end, 
 therefore, this statement is principally prepared ; and it will be my en- 
 deavour rather to clear up points already occurring in the Evidence than to 
 introduce fresh matter. 
 
 Q. 11,642. — The Basis on which Postmen's Rate of Pay is Fixed. 
 
 Mr. Hill says that the various scales are based according to the value 
 of labour in the .several towns. In this connection a Limerick correspondent 
 writes me as follows: — 
 
 " Here, in Limerick, labour is dearer than in any city in Ireland, both 
 in the stores and at the dock.n, and Mr. Hill admitted this fact him- 
 self when on tour a few years ago. He was then so incredulous as to the 
 statements we submitted to him, that he actually visited the stores himself, 
 and found that we even under-estimated the wages rather than otherwise, 
 and yet he could not see his way to pay the postmen of Limerick according 
 to the market value of labour in Limerick." 
 
 In reference to the same question (No. 11,642), a Torquay correspondent 
 writes as follows : — 
 
 " Some years ago Plymouth. Exeter, Devonport. and Torquay were on 
 equal scale of wages. On petition, Plymouth, Exeter, and Devonport got 
 increased maximum by 2s. But before Torquay had any definite reply the 
 general rise of the Raikes' Revision took place. We were still 2s. behind 
 our sister towns, for which no explanation was given. We have petitioned 
 several times. We first showed the Department that the cost of living in 
 Torquay is higher than any town in the West. After a good deal of 
 correspondence on the subject, we were informed by the Postmaster-Greneral, 
 then Sir James Fergusson. that he admitted our arguments were correct, 
 but if he gave it to Torquay he would have to give it to Bournemouth and 
 other towns. We pointed out that that was not the point : if we were en- 
 titled to it we should have it. Tlien came the General Election and the 
 accession of Mr. Arnold Morley to power ; and one of his first acts was 
 to grant Bournemouth and many other towns 26s. maximum. We took the 
 opportimity of pointing this out, and stated that the same argument stood, 
 viz., that if he gave it to Bournemouth, etc., he must accordingly give it 
 to Torquay. To this we received the reply that Bournemouth and other 
 towns had nothing to do with the case." 
 
 A Southport correspondent also writes : — 
 
 " Mr. Hill stated that when regulating the different scales of pay, the 
 value of labour and .cost of living was taken into consideration. On the 
 authority of Councillor Threllfall, J. P. , late President of the Trades' Council, 
 I beg to state that all trades are paid from ^d. to Id. more in Southport 
 than in most towns, owing to the cost of living and high rents. The house
 
 The Provincial Rejoinder. 635 
 
 occupied by myself, a very small one — 2 rooms up and 2 rooms down — • 
 amount-3 to, rent and rates combined, 7s. 3d. per week. As an instance of 
 marked unfairness in the regulation of pay, I may quote Waterloo (a sub- 
 office of Liverpool) in tiie same Parliamentary Division as Southport, with 
 an estimated population of 11.000. and with a complement of about 12 men, 
 rents 20 to 25 per cent, lower, living 15 lower — with all these advantages 
 the wages are 4s. per week more than at Southport, with an estimated 
 population in the postal district of between 50.000 and 60,000, and, being 
 a fashionable watering-place, Ls visited annually by tliousands of visitors. 
 Again, in all fairness, where does the consideration come in? Some montlis 
 ago a petition was sent in, giving all these and other particulars, when the 
 usual unfavourable reply was received, and it was stated that, 'No difficulty 
 is experienced in obtaining suitable men at Sout'iport as postmen for this 
 remuneration, which is that given at other places of similar size and char- 
 acter, and compares not unfavourably with that of the police ; and i regret 
 therefore, that I am unable to s;inction an incre;ise of pay for these post- 
 men.' We take it that Southport is a suburb of Manchester and Liverpool, 
 hundreds of gentlemen living here who have t'leir business in one or other 
 of these towns. The auxiliaries are also paid on a very low rate at South- 
 port, taking into consideration the above points, their pay averaging 
 about 4d. jier hour week days. Sundays, their duties consist of doubled 
 walks — this is. two of the ordinary morning walks thrown into one, the 
 time occupied being from 3^ to 4 hours every Sunday. They are paid Is. 6d. 
 every alternate Sunday. Their or.linary pay. 4d. per liour, is less than that 
 paid to the commonest labourer, viz., 6d. and 6^d. per hour." 
 
 Q. 11.658. — .Junior Postmea 
 
 " Mr. Hill said " that nobody iu this class (junior postmen) is supposed 
 t> do a full day's work." 
 
 In Leeds, until recently, the junior postmen were performing full-time 
 duties of eight hours a day. Tiiis, however, is now admitted to have 
 been a mistake on the part of the authorities, and that the full-time has 
 been wrongly imposed on the Leeds junior postmen. 
 
 Q. 11.696. — Wages CJomparison witli Railway Services. 
 
 The ca.se of the railway parcel porter is interesting evidence, as showing 
 by concrete example what is a notorious fact, namely, that the railway 
 companies are amongst the worst sweating concerns in the country. Had 
 Mr. Hill pursued his inquiries further, he would also have discovered that 
 the marked contrast is not coniined to manipulitive workers. 
 
 In the governing positions of almost any big railway company will be 
 found experienced officers doing work for £120 and £150 a year which is 
 analogous in character to that for which the Post Office pays £250 and 
 £300 a year. If this law of supply and demand be a just one for fixing 
 the rate of pay for postmen, it ought to be uniformly applied to the higher 
 officials as well. 
 
 Decidedly interesting results would doubtless be obtained from a general 
 application of the market value test to tlie higher posts in the Service — 
 say all above £300 a year. Were the Department to go to the open market 
 to fill up these posts, it is my firm conviction that there would be no great 
 difficulty in obtaining men of good business training and a fair amount 
 of administrative ability who would undertake the work for less than the 
 present salaries. But I doubt if such a course would, in the long run, be 
 a public benefit, although it miglit please cheeseparing economists. 
 a public benefit, although it might please cheeseparing economists. 
 
 Q. 11,707, 11.713, 11,715. — The Inadequacy of the Commencing Wages. 
 Ever since the established postmen's initial wages were reduced from 
 18s. to 17s. a week, this question has given rise to a great deal of discontent.
 
 636 The Provincial Rejoinder. 
 
 The ordinary channel for reJress of grievances has been tried and found 
 wanting, ifowever, I note with satisfaction that Mr. Hill now admits the 
 present commencing wage to be inadeq^uate. 
 
 Q. 11,726, etc. — Allowances in Lieu of Christmas Boxes. 
 
 Mr. Hill mentioned that one-fourth or ons-fifth of the men in the town 
 postmen's class are in receipt of allowances in lieu of Christmas boxes. 
 The Committee are liable to infer that the whole of the postmen who don't 
 sliare in the ChrLstmas boxes are t!ius provided for. (See answer to question 
 11.727.) Such, however, is not the case. In Clisgow, for examj)le, there 
 are upwards of 80 establislu'il postmen'.s duties which yield no Christmas 
 boxes. 
 
 I refer to Parcel Post and collection duties, etc. 
 
 g. 11,736-7.— Christmas boxas. 
 
 Mr. Hill admits that tlie Christmas Vjoxcs have been taken into considera- 
 tion in fixing postmen's wages, and consequently postmen's wages are 
 lower than they ought to be. 
 
 He also admits that some compeasation should Ije given in the event 
 of their abolition, but he is not prepared to give an equivalent to the wages, 
 because ;ui increased i-ate of wage:> would also carry with it increased rate 
 for overtime and pension. 
 
 lliere is some inconsistency in this attitude. 
 
 Q. 11,772 3-4. — Comparison with Police. 
 
 As the duties of postmen and policemen are not at all analogous, we 
 cannot admit the aptness of the comparison which Mr. Hill seeks to institute. 
 In our view of the case a much fairer comparison would be with other 
 manipulative branches of tlie Post Office Service, and particularly with the 
 sorting clerks, whose duty, like that of the postmen, consists chiefly of the 
 manipulation of letters, jjut even the comparison with the police fails when 
 applied to large and small tovms alike. 
 
 A Stafford correspondent writes me as follows : — 
 
 "Mr. Hill, in taking the average yearly wage of postmen and policemen, 
 has taken the nine largest towns, and drawn the comparison tlierefrom. 
 Had he included the smaller towns the result would have shown a very 
 different aspect." 
 
 Several other correspondents write to the same effect. 
 
 Q. 11,775, etc. — Comparison with Police. 
 
 A Southport correspondent writes : — 
 
 " On various occasions during the giving of evidence, Mr. Lewin Hill 
 mentioned the pay of the police, and stated that the postmen compared 
 very favourably with them. As far as Southport is concerned, we must 
 deny that such is the case. We have here 50 policemen, whose wages com- 
 mence at 27s. 6d. per week and ri.se in five years to 32s. per week. There 
 are also 6 sergeants rising to 38s. per week, also 5 inspectors rising to 
 50s. per week, so that not only are they much better off as regards pay. 
 but also as regards promotion, there being 11 higher appointments amongst 
 fifty men. They have also far brighter prospects as regards pensions. 
 They are pensioned after 25 years' service with two-thirds pay. During the 
 last 12 months thei-e have been five officers, inspectors, and others, who 
 were pensioned at this rate. Also, as regai'ds annual leave, we deny 
 that we are as well off as the above. They are allowed seven days' annual 
 leave, and also one day every fortnight. They also work the eight hours 
 within the twelve, day duty. Night duty the eight hours is worked without 
 a bi>eak, except for refreshments.
 
 The Provincial Eejoinder. 637 
 
 "And now about the favourable comparison of the postman. We have 
 at Southport 75 postmen whuse pay coinuieuces at 17s. per week, rising 
 by Is. to 26s. Of course, there is the Sunday pay, which, for a new entrant, 
 may amount to Is. per weeii ; therefore, it is clearly seen that the police- 
 man for his first year's services has about £26 more than the postman. 
 He also advances at a corresponding rate dui-ing his first five years' service, 
 until the maximum is reached, after which, of course, the amount he receives 
 more than the postman is less every year until the postman reaches his 
 maximum. 
 
 "As regards promotion, we have two higher appointments amongst 75 
 men. one of whicli — the asslstant-insi>ector — is scarcely worth competing foi-. 
 Tlie next point is pensions. The only postman pensioned at ^outllport is 
 John Morris, who, after 17 years' service, was pensioned at 4s. 6d. per 
 week. Part of each year is spent by this pensioned Government servant in 
 Ormskirk Workhouse. In these circumstances we cannot admit that a 
 favourable comparison has been established. 
 
 " The following is on the question of defei-red pay — another advantage 
 the policemen have over t'.e postmen. Some years ago a policeman died 
 at Southport after about ten years' service, leaving a widow and family ; 
 some short time afterwards the widow received the deferred pay, amounting 
 to between £80 and £90. About two years ago Jonathan Howard, a post- 
 Hian, died at Southport, having been appointed 17 years, leaving a widow 
 and family, but according to the existing rule they do not receive a penny 
 piece." 
 
 Q, 11,794. — Postmen and Free Tramway Travelling. 
 
 A correspondent writes : — 
 
 " Mr. Hill states that Cardiff was one of the places where postmen had 
 free tram fares. We wish it were so. It would be a great boon to Uf-. 
 We had a free ride for one season about eight years ago. We have had to 
 pay or walk ever since. 
 
 Q. 11,796. — A Periodical Partial Holiday for Postmen. 
 
 In response to representations as to the desirableness of securing partial 
 holiday on Saturdays, Mr. Morley gave a favourable decision in 1895, the 
 conditions being (1) that no extra expense w\as to he incurred ; (2) that the 
 local municipal authority signified its approval of one of the afternoon 
 deliveries being suspended. Since then the boon has been extended to 
 many towns. It should, of course, be imderstood that this is not a real 
 weekly half-holidaj'. It never amounts to more than one-thii-d of a day's 
 work, and it is only shared on alternate weeks. But even this modicum 
 of relief would be accepted gratefully by tlie postmen of those towns that 
 have been hitherto left out of benefit. In this connection a Bingley corres- 
 pondent writes me as follows: — "Bingley is erroneously included by Mr. 
 Hill among the list of towns that share in the boon of a partial weekly 
 holiday by the suspension of one of the deliveries." 
 
 Writing on 26th of April, 1896. a Bacup correspondent said: — "It is 
 not true that the postmen at this office get a weekly half -holiday." 
 
 These errors in the rebutting evidence mcidentally show that, notwith- 
 standing their splendid machinery for gathering exact detail, the Depart- 
 mental witnesses are not above making mistakes sometimes. Small wonder, 
 then, that our witnesses who had no access to the ofiicial records of Service 
 unintentionally committed errors of detail. 
 
 Q. 11,805.— The Rate of Increment— Too Slow. 
 Mr. Hill admitted tliut postmen took too long to reach the maximum 
 wages, and he went ou to say : — " In the case of an office — Liverpool or
 
 638 The Frovimial Rejuiii(l(;r, 
 
 Manchester, for instance — with a scale of 17s., rising by Is. to 30s. a week, 
 the postman does not reach his maximum until 13 years' service." 
 
 The grievance might b.* more strikingly e.\€m7)liHed by taking the case 
 of Glasgow, where new entrants have to do about four years' auxiliary 
 service and 13 years' est:il)li.she<l service before receiving the maximum 
 wages. 
 
 Q. 11,915. — Auxiliary Postmen's rate of Pay. 
 
 Mr. Hill admits that — "The most e'luiUible iiK;th(Hl of lixing the wages 
 of the auxiliary pu.stmeu would, perhaps, be tu pav them rat«*ably (cal 
 culated to the nearest 6d. on the weekly wages) at tiie mein of the estal)- 
 lished men's scale, with the proviso that in no ca.se should the rate l>e lower 
 that 4d. jjer hour, the present minimum." 
 
 The mean of the established postmen's .scale at Glasgow is 23s. 6d. a 
 week. Adopting Mr. Hill's basis of calculation, the "double-auxiliaries" 
 at Glasgow ought to receive 18s. a week instead of 14s., the present rate. 
 Thus admission goes to show that the auxiliaries are at present very much 
 imderpaid, and it also shows the moderate character of the claim put for- 
 ward on their behalf. 
 
 Q. 11,952. — Hours of Attendance at Brighton. 
 
 A Brighton correspondent writes as follows: — 
 
 "Mr. Lewin Hill sfcited before the Committee that the postmen in 
 Brighton did not wish their duties to be altered, as the long break in the 
 middle of the day enabled them to earn money at window-cleaning, etc. 
 This statement is without foundation. The facts are as follows : — Shortly 
 after Mr. Hetherington came to Brighton, a paper was sent to eacli office, 
 asking that those men who desired a change of duty would sign to that 
 effect. No particulars were given, and no information could be obtained 
 as to what the proposed change was likely to be. Men who had been a 
 long time in the Service, and had picked their walks according to seniority, 
 naturally objected to taking a step in the dark. The prevailing idea was 
 that the duties would be made to rotate with the mid-day duties, which are, 
 without exception, worked by men who are comparatively junior to the 
 men on the other section. The men on these duties cover two, and in a few 
 cases three, walks on the mid-day deliveries, and, further, it should be 
 noted, do four consecutive deliveries between 6 a.m. and 4.30 p.m., with a 
 short interval between. There is no doubt that tliese duties are very good 
 ones, but, on the other hand, a man who has been accustomed to regard 
 the men working them as in a sense inferior to hun, a^ who had also been 
 in the habit of receiving the lion's share of the Christmas boxes, would not 
 care to be shifted from his regular duty. We would like to point out that 
 the Christmas boxes are not shared here on the London system, but are 
 given by the public to the man for whom they are intended. Naturally, 
 the senior man comes in for the larger share. At the time the matter was 
 brought up, we had no branch of the Federation in Brighton, and no 
 means existed of calling the men together to discuss the subject. The case 
 was mentioned to the Postmaster by a deputation which waited upon him 
 about fifteen months ago, but he stated that as the men had declined to 
 accept a change of duty, he could not discuss the subject until such time as 
 a revision took place." 
 
 Q. 11,967. — Compressing the Day's Work within 12 Hours. 
 The witnesses of the Postmen's Federation made representations for com- 
 pressing within 12 hours' stretch the postman's daily quota of eight hours' 
 duty. But we never advocated t'uat it should be done by increased employ- 
 ment of auxiliary labour. We rather looked forward to a re-organisation of 
 postal work, by which the postmen's duties would be more dovetailed mto
 
 The Provincial Rejoinder. 639 
 
 the sorting work. We believe this to be capable of achievement, and that, 
 in the end, it would be conducive to both true economy and efficiency of the 
 public service. To deny the possibility of improvement in this direction 
 would, in our view of the case, be regarded as a confession of weakness — 
 a confession, in fact, that those in govemmg positions in the Service were 
 unequal to tlie task of any extensive measure of re-organisation. 
 
 In any case, tiie witnesses of the Postmen's Federation are not correctly 
 imderstood as advocating improved hours of attendance for established 
 postmen by the creation of a new sweated class. 
 
 Q. 11,933. — Auxiliary Postmen and Annual Holidays. 
 
 In reference to auxiliaries' holidays, Mr. Hill said: — "Where it has been 
 asked for, it has been granted." This statement is somewhat misleading. 
 It is calculated to leave the unpression that auxiliary postmen have hitherto 
 been ■without annual holidays, simply because they have failed to ask for 
 them. 
 
 At the time I gave evidence before your Committee, the rule of the 
 Service on the matter wa.s as follows : — 
 
 " Auxiliaries are not entitled to leave of absence at the cost of the De- 
 partment, but tlie Postmaster can give them leave of absence not exceeding 
 one fortnight in the year, provided they can, with the approval of the 
 Postmaster, agree with some competent person to act as substitute." 
 
 By a general petition, dated 16th January, 1893, annual holidays and 
 other advantages were asked for auxiliary postmen. Tiiat petition was 
 refused. It was only when a fresh application was made in May, 1896, 
 that authority was granted to give holidays to those of the Glasgow aux- 
 iliaries who have previously been telegraph messengers. For this instal- 
 ment of justice we are sincerely grateful ; but it falls short of the needs of 
 the case. For, although I pointed out the treatment which telegraph mes- 
 sengers received on being promoted to an auxiliary postman's duty, I did 
 not wish it to be inferred that ex-telegraph messengers had greater claims 
 on annual holidays than other auxiliaries. My reasons for selecting the case 
 of ex-telegraph messengers to illustrate my argument were : — (1) It was a 
 truly typical case — the auxiliary postmen being mainly recruited from the 
 telegraph messengers ; (2) because it served to show more strikingly the 
 uiconsistency and absurdity of the Departmental attitude on the question. 
 Even the latest decision is not without its absurd features. Take, for ex- 
 ample, the case of James M'Alpine, auxiliary postman, Glasgow. He joined 
 the Service 36 years ago. At that time the Post Office had no telegraph 
 messengers. Yet he is denied the boon of annual holidays, just because he 
 did not pass tlirough the ranks of a class which did not then exist. The 
 only real solution of the question is for the Department to meet the case 
 squarely by giving annual holidays to all auxiliaries. 
 
 Q. 11,957. — Postmen's Hours of Attendance at Cardiff. 
 
 A Cardiff correspondent writes : — 
 
 " It will be observed that there is a vast deal of difference between the 
 evidence given by us and the rebutting evidence, as given by Mr. Hill, 
 regarding the hours of duty. A revision was the cause of the difference. 
 At the time the statement was compiled our figures were rather under- 
 estimated than otherwise." 
 
 Q. 11,985. — As to Postmen being Overburdened. 
 The postmen's representatives made a complaint that postmen on letter- 
 delivering duty had frequently to carry excessive loads. As the Parcel Post 
 is the principal, though not the only cause of overburdening, a plea was 
 put forward for the Parcel Post being wrought separate, as originally 
 intended. In the rebutting evidence Mr. Hill pooh-poohed the complaint
 
 640 'Ihc rroviiicial Hfjoindt-r. 
 
 by saying: "Certainly not; it would involve a very large expense. Scnne 
 of the men seem asliiiiiuMl to carry ikucl'Ih, but. I think, if they are, they 
 had better seek some other einplcn'nient." If the rt-al l)ei)artniental view 
 is accurately expressed by Mr. Hill, it partiikes of an even more harsh 
 character than our witness represented it. Surely Departmental countenance 
 is not given to cases like the following: — 
 
 (1) Locliee Case. — On Sunday, 1st March, 1896, a sealed bag, which 
 weighed over 70 lbs., had to be carried by one man from Dundee head office 
 to Locheo, being a dist;ince of about 2 miles, all np hill. No assistance 
 of any sort was given, and the complaint was lodged with the sujierinten- 
 dent. The average weight of this bag is .said to be about 60 11)8., and has 
 to be carried by one man. 
 
 (2) Iiivculeitheii Case. — A postman at Inverleithen. N.H.. has to convey 
 with hand-cart the mails for despatch by the 9.20 p.m. train. Tlie mail 
 Ixigs and jKircel baskets weigh at times over 4 cwt. The weight of the 
 hand-cart it-self is about 2 cwt. This makes a gross weight of 6 cwt. to 
 be propelled by one man for nearly half-a-mile. In Noveml)er last, when 
 this matter was brought under my notice, I caused a return to be kept for 
 one week. On two of the nights the loixl excelled 4 cwt. 
 
 At present there is a carrying-weight limit for collection duty, but it is 
 not a<lhered to .so well as it might. For example, at Glasgow an unestab- 
 lished postman was required to answer a report, of which the following is a 
 copy : — 
 
 [Copy of Report.] 
 
 Post Office, Glasgow, 24tli February, 1896. 
 
 "For dAME.s Smith, Collector. 19 Walk. 
 
 " You are reipiestcd U^ furnish your explanation on the following 
 points, with the least possible delay: — 
 
 "On arriving, on Saturday. 22nd inst.. with collection due here at 11.45 
 i.m., you reported having employed a cab from St. Enoch's Square P.B. to 
 head office. The weiglit of the collection was 42 lbs. 
 
 " Why did you engjige a cab, seeing the distance travelled was only half-a- 
 mile? 
 
 "Intd. A. W. (Signed) A. Camekox. Pro. Postmaster." 
 
 The postman is here called upon to explain his action, just as If he had 
 committed some grave irregularity, while, as a matter of fact, ho only took 
 advantage of Rule No. 58 (Postman's Rule Book), which says: "You are 
 allowed to employ a cab or other conveyance when the weight of your 
 collection exceeds 35 lbs." 
 
 I cannot pretend to know what construction the reporting officer chose 
 to put on this rule. I presume he held it to be a safeguard against the 
 sliort shipment of mails, rather than a rule intended to protect t'le postman 
 from beinsi over-burdeiicd. The ^u|'c^intPndont who conn torsi srned the 
 report is a zealou.s and painstaking officer. I am free to credit him with 
 having been influenced entirely by a sense of . duty, and that in adhibiting 
 his initials to the paper he had no intention to lend countenance to an act 
 of petty oppression on a subordinate. But the mere fact of such a report 
 being issued in an admittedly well-managed office like Glasgow is signiB- 
 cant. 
 
 In the case of delivery duty, there is no definite carrying limit. It is 
 left largely to the discretion of the inspector, or other superior officer, to 
 give or withhold assistance as he sees fit. In some towns this discretionary 
 mode of giving relief works fairly well, but in other towns the vested power 
 is frequently abused. In no town, howpver. .ni it ho said that the present
 
 The Provincial Rejoinder. 641 
 
 haphazard method gives complete satisfaction. The experience of the Glas- 
 gow postmen may serve to illustrate the policy hitherto pursued by the 
 Department with regard to the Parcel Post. In December, 1890, two 
 Glasgow postmen gave evidence before the Departmental Committee then 
 sitting. In the course of his evidence, one of the witnesses laid great stres.<: 
 on hardship imposed upon postmen through having to carry parcels up and 
 down long flights of s airs, along with ihe ordinary letter delivery — for 
 at that time there was scarcely any relief given, except to a few of the very 
 heavy districts at the morning delivery. At other deliveries postmen had to 
 struggle along with the jjarcels as best they could. Tliis was, indeed, a 
 very serious state of matters for postmen in a to^vn like Glasgow, where 
 stair-climbing enters very largely into the daily work. Mr. Joyce, who was 
 Chairman of that Committee, innocently suggested to the witness that 
 a postman could ease his work by leaving his bag at the foot of the stairs 
 while he went tu serve tlie ui>per flats of a building. That such a sugges- 
 tion should be made by one of the Chief Administrators of the Department 
 would lead one to infer that some of the higher oflicials don't realh^ under- 
 "stand the service they are ^upposed to control— for to do a.s .Mr. Joyce 
 suggested would have renderetl tlie jxistman liable to a penalty of £20 
 for leaving in an unprotected position the correspondence entrusted to his 
 care. (See Post Office Offences Act, 1 Vic. Cap. 36, Sec. 7.) However, 
 one of the inmiediate results of tlie repre.<entations then made was that 
 authority was given to employ 20 additional jMistmen. The additional men 
 were to l>e emjdoyed exclusively in I'elieving the letter-carriers of the larger 
 and heavier parcels. It should be noted that this much-needed relief was 
 only given after the Parcel Post had been in ojieration for seven years, 
 and that 'it was not given as a sj)onlaneous act of ju.stice, but I'ather in 
 consequence of pressure by agitation. 
 
 Since tlie Department refu.x«is U> grapple boMly with the question by 
 dojiting separate delivery, the postmen are (juile justified in seeking to have 
 a definite load-lino fixed, beyond which no man Mould be required to Inirden 
 liim.self. The postmen, therefore, urge thit the following weight-linuts be 
 tixetl and enforced: — 1st, for a near-hand walk — th;it is, a walk in the 
 immediate vicinity of the oflSce — that the maxinuim carrying weight be 
 35 lbs. 2nd, In the case of a distant walk — that is, in the case of the 
 postmen having to walk a mile, or more, before reaching the commencini^ 
 point of his delivery — that a weight-limit of 28 lbs. be fixed. That this is 
 only a moderate claim must be admitted when the attendant circumstances 
 are imijartially consi<lere(l. 
 
 Q. 11,983. etc.— Tlie Plea for Separate Delivery for Parcel Post. 
 
 A Watford corresj)ondent writes as follows: — 
 
 "As Mr. Lewin Hill has stated that the allegation in reference to the 
 di.-posal of jjarcels at this office is untrue, I wish to say that the statements 
 coi't;iined in the forms for inquiry were correct in every detail at that date. 
 viz., .July, 1895. Had we known that Watford would be taken ys an 
 e.xani])le. I feel sure that a mucii stronger <mse could have been made. At 
 that date part of the town was served by hand-carts, which were despatclied 
 from the office at 7.30 a.m.. but a large portion of the to\vn, whicli included 
 Xos. 6, 7, and 11 walks, was not served at any period during the day by a 
 l>arcel postman, therefore the men on those walks Mere compelled to deliver 
 all the |j.arcels with the f)rdinary con'esi)ondence, I have seen Archer on 
 No. 11 walk t;ike out 18 parcels for delivery among his ordinary corre.s- 
 jtcmdence. the reason he took so many being as follows: — Had he left any 
 paicels back, he knew that he would have to take them out on his next 
 •<lelivery, and would therefore be compelled to carry them much further, as 
 * Xos. 6 and 11 walks are then mergetl into one. I am not (juotinu: the 
 -above as an instance which merely occurred once in a way. as I should say 
 that the numl)er of parcels delivered by this man would average from 10
 
 642 The Provincial Rejoinder. 
 
 to 14 on each first delivery. Tlie same may be applied to No. 7 walk, as 
 the man on this walk had to deliver all parcels that arrive<l, although on 
 tills walk they would not be quite so numerous as on No. 11. As to the 
 delay caused by leaving parcels over from one delivery to another, I may 
 say that it was a frequent occurrence. I myself have delivered parcels at 
 4 p.m., which, in the ordinarj' course, should iiave been delivered by 8.30 
 a.m. It is only fair to the Department to say that the foregoing system has 
 been remedied, although, at the present time, the surplus parcels are deliveretl 
 b\'^ telegraph messengers, who are employed at this office at 5.s. per week, and 
 receive nothing extra for delivering parcels. If Mr. Lewin Hill had stated 
 that the evidence sujjplied was formerly correct, but ha'l since been re- 
 medied, it would not apjiear so f:ilse ; 1)ut when he says that there was no 
 foundation for such statements, then it would appear that we are trying to 
 manufacture a case by misleading st;itements." 
 
 Q. 12,055. — Auxiliary Postmen's Uniforms. 
 Mr. Hill mentions imiform clothing as one of the emoluments of auxiliary 
 postmen. But one cannot de{)en(l on uniforms l)eing issued when due. 
 For example, Walter Dunbar, auxiliary postman, Glasgow, is still (at the 
 time of writing) without his uniform, after 11 montlis' service in the Post- 
 men's Branch. Others have 8, 9, and 10 months', and are still performing 
 their official duties in mufti. Besides being an unnecessary expense to the 
 lads themselve.s, it is in other respects undesirable. The public — especially 
 in business parts — look askance on postmen who perform delivering duty 
 without the uniform. 
 
 With reference to the Brighton Cases, a Correspondent writes: — 
 
 '■ The evidence given with reference to promotion is correct in every 
 detail, and with regard to relationship with the inspector of postmen to 
 the Postmaster of Poole, and also the relationship of the assistant-inspector 
 to an assistant-superintendent here, we have nothing to add or retract. 
 
 '"We have made inquiries at Hassocks, S.O., and have been informed that 
 F. Dunstone, the assistant-inspector, was not a rural postman there, but was 
 employed by the sub-postmaster as an assistant at a wage of six shillings 
 per week. His duties consisted of making collections, occasionally doing a 
 rural walk, etc. He held no appointment in the Service until he was ap- 
 pointed postman at Brighton. 
 
 " With regard to the statement that he was rejected by the medical officer, 
 we wish to point out that an error was made with reference to this matter. 
 His certificate of physical fitness was withheld for six months, owing to an 
 affection of the heart, but was granted at the end of that time. 
 
 " Mr. Walton stated that the postman travelling on the T.P.O. between 
 Loudon and Brighton came on duty at midnight on Sundays. This was 
 incorrect. The men came on duty at 10 p.m. on Sundays, and on other 
 nights at 9.30 p.m. Since the case was mentioned to the Committee the 
 hours of duty have been curtailed to the extent of one hour each night. 
 Clerks and postmen now come on duty at 10.30 instead of 9.30 p.m. The 
 duty now extends over a period of 10 hours, i.e.. from 10.30 p.m. until 
 8.30 a.m. There is an interval of two hours at London Bridge, but, seeing 
 that they are locked in the railway station, it cannot be considered as time 
 off duty. 
 
 "Upon the question of the allowance of 3s. given to W. Carter, we find 
 that this sum had not been paid regiilarly to Talmey. but had been given 
 to him in turn with three other men. Patching, Long, and A. J. Grimwood. 
 When Talmey spoke to the inspector of postmen with reference to the 
 matter, he was told that the allowance could be paid to whoever he (the 
 inspector) thought fit. This is Talmey's statement. At present all of 
 these men are deprived of any share in this allowance, as it is all paid 
 to Carter."
 
 The Provincial Rejoinder. 643 
 
 Q. 12,248. — As to Postmen being Shut out from Sorting Branch. 
 
 A Brighton correspondent writes : — 
 
 " As to the statement that the learners are only in receipt of pay while 
 they are filling the place of a sorting clerk who is absent, we should like to 
 mention that as soon as they arrive at the age of eighteen years they are 
 invariably nominated for an appointment, which proves that they are really 
 filling vacancies on the staff which are being kept warm for them. The 
 whole secret of the matter is this : the Postmaster of Brighton does not 
 love the postmen, and if he can, by any pretence, keep them down and 
 shut them out from every avenue of promotion, he is going to do it. 
 
 "His first argument (Q. 12,244) against them is lack of education. 
 Brighton is supposed to be one of the best educated towns in the kingdom, 
 and we have yet to learn that postmen have not derived some benefit from 
 the spread of knowledge which has taken place during the last decade or so, 
 and we are loth to believe that only the sons and nephews of chief clerks 
 and superintendents have profited thereby. His second argument is not 
 worth considering ; indeed, it can sctircely be dignified by the name of an 
 argument. The final argument can be made to cut both ways — " Tlie 
 qualities which go to make a good postman do not make a good sorting 
 clerk." We know of sorting clerks who are absolutely incapable of being 
 entrusted with the duties of a delivering postman. So satisfied is the Post- 
 master of Brighton w-ith his theories that he has endeavoured ' to keep in 
 training a supply of well-educated lads to fill the vacancies as they occur, 
 and meanwhile to act as substitutes for sorting clerks. This he calls his 
 nursery.' (Vide Mr. Joyce's evidence). The jjostmen are shut out accord- 
 inglj'. So long as the Department continues to bow down to the fetish 
 of the educational as against tlie practical test, we suppose such things must 
 be, Vjut we feel positive tliat the Post Office, conservative as it is, will be 
 bound to recognise the claims of those, who, by reason of long service and 
 experience, have some right to be considered. We would like to quote the 
 opinion of a well-known writer, who, in speaking of the tendency of the 
 public to regard mere book education as the prime factor, so far as regards 
 success in life, instead of as a casual accessor, says, that if we possessed 
 the slightest sense of humour as a nation, we would not permit an educa- 
 tional test for the humblest employee in the Government Service, at which 
 it is highly probable that Lord Salisbury or any one of the heads of De- 
 j)artments would get plucked. 
 
 "At any rate, wc think the time has come when Postmasters should be 
 told that private opinions and deep-seated prejudices should not be allowed 
 to operate against a bodj' of men in the manner in which they have done in 
 the post, and that is no part of a Postmaster's duty to provide positions in 
 the Public Service for outsiders at the expense of men already in the 
 Service." 
 
 Q. 12,265-6. 
 " If further proof of the state of affairs existing at Brighton were neces- 
 sary, it has been supplied by those responsible for the defence of the 
 system. Surely the irony of fate was never better exemplified. We en- 
 deavoured to state our case in as tempei-ate a manner as possible, but we 
 hesitated to describe the Brighton Sorting Office as a nursery. This has 
 l)een done for us by the Postmaster of Brighton, and we hereby tender 
 him our hearty thanks. Now that the ofiicial mind has unburdened itself 
 as to the manner in which sorting clerks' appointments are filled at Brighton, 
 we should like to point out the singular fact that nearly all of these lads 
 are etlucated at the same school, and that the Postmaster of Brighton is a 
 manager of that school. We may assume that the Postmaster is actuated 
 by a keen sense of his 'responsibilities,' and feels that it is not only his 
 duty to keep a watchful eye over the intellectual training of these youths, 
 but also to provide them with the positions in the Public Service.
 
 r>44 The Provincial Ilejoinder. 
 
 "We have no douht that tlie iwreiils and j,'uar<li!iiw of the \iuU in tjues- 
 tion are dei-plv ),'"itefiil to tlie Postiiiastcr. an.l tliat tliey regard him us tlie 
 hoiui-ideu! of ' a school -niamiger. Wliether he i-s actiiate<l l)y a genuine 
 desire to olitain the lie«t |M).sHilde nwiterial for conversion into I'oHt Ofticti 
 otliciais, or whellier he is infhien(;ed liy a liankering after clieaj) iMjpularity 
 18, as Mr. .Joyce would nut it. 'rather a matter for si)eoulation.' Thi;* we 
 do know, that these lads are hrouglit into the olHce knowing al)solut«ly 
 nothing of the routine, and are given every opiwrtunity of learning the- 
 duties, and that |)u<liiieii act in tlie oa|iicity of 'nurses' wiiile they are 
 in tlie nursery." 
 
 (). 12.265 6. 
 
 A lirighton corres|iondent writes: — 
 
 "Mr. .Joyce's evidence, j)resuming it to liave been correctly reported, 
 does not say much for the uhility or homi«ty of purpose of those who have 
 lieen rcsp(msilde in furnishing him with his facts and figures. Mr. Walton 
 stated on our behalf that 'nearly half the nundter of sorting clerks a» 
 ])resent on the Urighton staff Jiave l)e('n brought from other towns; some 
 have Wen fully established previou.s to tiking local appointment*!, others 
 have received their appointments at Urighton." Mr. .Joyce, rebutting, con- 
 fesses: 'That he was very much struck witli that statement," and he 
 inquired into it. and wa.s " infornied that the total number of second-claws 
 scrting clerks at llriglit<in is 40. while the nundier of those brought from 
 other towas is 10. It was desired to reduce the number of learners at 
 K« St bourne, and they were transferred to Hrighton.' 'Hie only truth in 
 this reported statement of Mr. .Joyce is that the numlier of .second-class 
 sorting clerks here is 40. Within the last ten years, the whole of the 
 present staft" of sorting clerks, and about one-half of those of the first-cla.ss. 
 have received their a))pointments on the Urighton st;i<T : Maidstone supplied 
 1; Ashford. 1; Margate. 1; Ixmdon. 4: Burgess Hill. 3: Hassocks and 
 Hurst. 4 ; Chatham. 2 : Chichester. 1 : Xewcastle-on-Tyne. 1 : Ejjsom. 1 : 
 Leeds. 1 ; Windsor or Datcliet. 1 ; and Llandudno. 1 ; a total of 22 imported 
 men. Of these one has left the Service, and one has gone to Tunbridge 
 Wells, and three have received tirst-class appointments. Further, instead of 
 J<]ii.stbourno supplying Urighton from its su{)erabundant. embryonic, clerical 
 uiaterial. exactly the oj)positc is the truth : not one of the present staff of 
 second-class clerks or leirners here have come from that town, whereas 
 Urighton has actually recently lent Kastbourne a learner from its now 
 far-famed nursery." 
 
 N.B. — (1) From information now at hand it would appear that the Brighton 
 case has been understated. The total number of imported Sorting Clerks should 
 be 28 in.«tead of 22, as stated in the foregoing: paragraph of the rejoinder. 
 
 (2 ) I find from the official copy of the evidence that the inaccurate character of 
 Mr. Joyce's evidence with reference to Eastbourne has already been fully ad- 
 mitted at the commencement of the fortieth day of the Committee's sittings. 
 
 A. McL.
 
 The Provincial Rejoinder 
 
 645 
 
 Q. 12.265. — Detailed Statepient a^ to Imported Sorting Clerks at Brighton. 
 
 Table A. 
 The following tabular statement shows how the sorting clerks' class at 
 Brighton has been recruited within the last ten years: — 
 
 Name. 
 
 Town of Okigin. ! 
 
 1 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 *Coleman, 
 
 
 i 
 Burgess Hill. i 
 
 
 ♦Miller, ... 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 •Groves, ... 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 •Tapper, ... 
 
 
 ... 
 
 Xow 1st Class 
 
 ♦Mascell, ... 
 Baker. C . 
 Baker, II. , 
 
 
 1 Hurst and 
 
 1 Hassocks Gate. 
 
 
 •Cook, K., 
 
 
 Chatham. 
 
 
 •Kent, U , 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 Habgood, 
 
 
 Chichester. 
 
 
 •Brien, ... 
 
 
 Newcastle-on-Tyne. 
 
 
 *Southey.... 
 
 .. 
 
 Epsom. 
 
 
 •Mann, ... 
 
 
 Leeds, 
 
 Gone to Surveyor's 
 
 Office, Tunbridge Wells. 
 
 Young, ... 
 
 
 Datchet or Wimlscir. 
 
 Left Service. 
 
 •M'Intyre, C. 
 
 B.\ 
 
 Llandudno. 
 
 
 •Tapplev, ... 
 
 
 Maidstone, 
 
 Now 1st Class. 
 
 •Elliot, ... 
 
 
 .Vslifonl, 
 
 Now Ist Class. 
 
 •Br ice, ... 
 
 
 .Margate. 
 
 
 •Dunn, ... 
 
 
 Canterbury. 
 
 
 ♦dharp, ... 
 
 
 London. 
 
 
 •Snow, 
 
 
 do. 
 
 ■ 
 
 Carman,... 
 
 
 do. 
 
 
 M'Intjre, W 
 
 D., 
 
 do. 
 
 
 T.\I»LE B. 
 
 Here also is a list of men who have come from other towns within or 
 about the past live years, but have not been appointed either through lack 
 of vacancies, failini; exaniinatinii.<. or other c:inses : — 
 
 Namk. 
 
 WuENCE Came. 
 
 Remarks. 
 
 •Wenbijn, ... 
 
 Came from Worthing, 
 
 Went to Tunbridge Wells, received 
 his appointment there. 
 
 ♦Creigh, ... 
 
 Came from Cork, 
 
 Failed at old examination, returned 
 to Cork; deceased. 
 
 fCrain, 
 
 Came from Bedford, 
 
 E.xpecting to be nominated shortly. 
 
 Weller, ... 
 
 Came from Rochester, 
 
 Expecting to be nominated shortly. 
 
 Carter, 
 
 Came from Hassocks, 
 
 Failed at old examination, now a 
 Postman, mentioned in the evi- 
 dence. 
 
 Tester, 
 
 Came from Hassocks, 
 
 Had to resign. 
 
 Dooner, 
 
 Came from Australia, 
 
 Returned there. 
 
 t Crain now appointed.
 
 646 The Provincial Rejoinder. 
 
 N.B. — The name of Dunstone, now assistant-inspector, who came from 
 Hassocks, is not included in either of these lists. Those marked with an 
 asterisk were previously employed in the Post Office at the towns opposite 
 their names, and some of these men wore the uniform l)efore coming to 
 Brif^hton. It stands to reason that these men cannot be so well fitted for 
 doing local sorting a^ local born and bred postmen. 
 
 Q. 12.275. — Tte Cases of Stenning and Dunstone, Brighton. 
 
 A Brighton corre.spondent writes: — 
 
 " Mr. Joyce merely says, in reply to Cliairman : ' Yes. I liave not the 
 slightest doubt it was not so.' Mr. Joyce lias every opportunity of giving 
 dates, opportunities not available to us. Instead of giving a blank denial 
 to our allegations, let him give the date of one day when Stenning or Dun- 
 stone, holding postmen's appointments, wore the uniform or did pastmen's 
 duty. He also states (Q. 12.278) that Dunstone's brother has left, and that 
 he left before the present Postmaster got his appointment. The truth is 
 that Dunstone's brotlier luus not left, but is still holding an assistant-super- 
 intendent's appointment in Brighton. The cases of Belward, Harris, and 
 Carter, Mr. Joyce, though given every opportimity to rebut, did not attempt 
 to touch." 
 
 Q. 12,279.— The Case of Mr. F. Paul. 
 It. reference to this case, a Brighton correspondent writes: — 
 "Mr. Joyce admits that his work, prior to 1891. was important. But 
 why only prior to 1891? Is it beciiuse we, purposely understating the case, 
 handed in tliat Paul's duties as clerk in charge only covered the years from 
 1888 to 1891 ? What can Mr. Joyce, or anyone else, for the matter of that, 
 say to the following dates taken from the attendance books, showing that 
 Paul was performing clerk in charge duties until two years after Mr. Joyce 
 savs that he had ceased to perform them: — .Jan. 18th, 1892. to Feb. 20th, 
 1892; Mar. 21st, 1892. to AprU 22nd, 1892; Oct. 10th, 1892, to Dec. 3rd, 
 
 1892 ; Dec. 11th, 1892, to Dec. 16th, 1892 ; Jan. 17th, 1893, to .Jan. 31st, 
 1893 ; Mar. 20th, 1893, to Julv Lst, 1893 : Julv 51st, 1893, to Aug. 26th, 
 
 1893 ; Oct. 16th, 1893, to Oct.' 21st. 1893 ; Xov. 6th. 1893. to Nov. 18th, 
 1893. 
 
 "Almost, it will be seen, until the year 1894. Mr. Joyce also says that 
 at no time could Mr. Paul's duties be defined as those of a superintendent. 
 There was no difference but that of wage. What an exposition of Depart- 
 mental economics — Paul performing duties by himself at a wage of about 
 £80, that now requires a superintendent and clerk at an aggregate wage of 
 £550, not including the salary of an odd learner! The remainder of Mr. 
 Joyce's evidence, so far as it affects Brighton, is made up, with few ex- 
 ceptions — particularly with reference to relations having left the office before 
 the present Postmaster came, and who. unfortu.iately for the truth of Mr. 
 Joyce's testimony, are still here — ^by an abuse of postmen for lack of edu- 
 cational ability. ' We respectfully call on Mr. Joyce for proof, and when 
 he has proved it to reconcile his advocacy of an educational test as the 
 CI iter ion of merit, with Mr. Hill's statement, that those who pa.ss it best — 
 Irishmen — make the worst officials. 
 
 "The Brighton evidence was carefully understated, and although there 
 are generally two sides to every question, so far as this office is concerned, 
 Mr. Joyce's rebutting evidence" cannot be accepted as being a fair answer 
 to the plain unvarnished statement made on our behalf before the Commission 
 of Inquiry." 
 
 Q. 12.290. — Postmen and Counter Duties. 
 If counter duties are really so difficult that they exclude the hope of 
 postmen being able to perform them, it may fairly be asked : Where do 
 sub-postmasters gain their practical training and experience?
 
 The Provincial Rejoinder. 647 
 
 Concluding Remarks. 
 In the course of Mr. Hill's evidence, the following sentence occurs: — 
 "Don't delude yourselves with the notion that the men will cease to ask." 
 Although this was given in a reminiscent sort of way, I presume that it ex- 
 pi esses Mr. Hill's views as applying to the present case. So far as the 
 postmen are concerned, every claim put forward was, I hope, supported by 
 fair argument. But even suppose it were the case that groimdless claims 
 had been put forward by any section of the Service, the Department must 
 take to itself a great measure of the blame. From experience of former 
 revisions, the Departmental policy may be said to foster a spirit of im- 
 portimate asking, for Mr. Hill practically admits that every improvement 
 gi'anted was the result of pressure by agitation. And it will be observed 
 that the classes that agitated most vigorously got the most prompt and 
 substantial redress. As the postmen have Iiitherto adhered to comparatively 
 mild methods of agitation, they were rewarded by redress coming more 
 tardily and more niggardly. This deferential method of allaying discontent 
 is further exemplified in treatment meted out to the various classes of post- 
 men themselves. Town postmen, on account of feeble attempts at concerted 
 action, in the way of simultaneous petitions, etc., fared better than their 
 rural brethren. That this is a correct statement may be gathered from Mr. 
 Hill's own admission when he says: — 
 
 " Mr. Fawcett's revision was confined to town postmen, and practically 
 the only advantage which rural postmen obtained out of that revision was 
 good-conduct stripes, which was, however, a great advantage. From what 
 the papers in the office will show, we know tliat Mr. Fawcett intended 
 to follow up the revision of the town postmen by a revision of the rural 
 postmen. But this was not done, and from various causes that revision did 
 not come till nine years later." 
 
 The moral here is obvious. Had rural postmen agitated more they would 
 probably have fared better. 
 
 Again, in answer to Question 11,663: — 
 
 "In the Committee of 1891 we recognised that there were no sufiicient 
 giounds for paying rural postmen, who started from a town office, less than 
 town postmen who worked in the same town, but their pay previously was 
 so very much less that we were afraid to propose to put them on an 
 ecjuality." This is a curious way of reasoning. The Department should 
 not have been afiaid to do what was right. 
 
 Auxiliary postmen fared still worse. They were left out in the cold 
 altogether. 
 
 Had the Department been actuated by motives of justice, the cases of 
 the weaker and more helpless classes, such as telegraph messengers and 
 auxiliary postmen, would be the first to get attention and suitable redress. 
 Instead of that, we find Mr. Hill contemplating a step calculated to inflict 
 further hardships of the telegi-aph messengers' class (see answer to Question 
 11,834-5). In our view of the case, it would be more credital)le for the 
 Department to have its policy based on principles of justice rather than 
 mere expediency. 
 
 If, in the course of this statement, I have had occasion to criticise the 
 Departmental ways with unusual freedom, it is not in the least through 
 any desire to impair the discipline so necessary in the Service. It is 
 rather because the present occasion is one which should be taken the fullest 
 advantage of to state our case freely. This, indeed, is what we l>elieve 
 Mr. Morley would have desired when he said that " he desired to make 
 the scope of the Inquiry as wide as possible, so as to include all practical 
 grievances, and that the men might be encouraged to come forward and state 
 them freely." 
 
 I have the honour to be, 
 
 Your obedient servant, 
 
 Alexander MacLaren, Postman, Glasgow,
 
 UK.KUNDKl: FOinVAl:lM;i) HV MH, loMN' WALSH LIVKRI'OOL. 
 
 A> an Item. 1 cont« ii-ird me Ntaiidui'i "i euui .iikm h.ki m-n i.n^.-i l«» 
 kee[i |><)?ttiii«'ii from Mortiu^ L-lerkxhip**, and tliat Uie i)re«eiit ataadard i« 
 «iip^rlluitii>. 
 
 A sLui'laril NiiniUr to tlie jxilice. uilli tlie ediioitiutial effect of expcrieno 
 of jK.stal work on tlie iiKlivi-luai, i» sutlicieiil. Mr. Lewin Hill WearM me out 
 for he imnlic"* that IriHlimeii. \vlu» cm xmhh examinatioriM beciiine (if " 
 idiicatuiiuil aci|uireiiu'i>t.s or HurphiH kaowleil^jc, are less n-ff'ii t'nn Kn/ 
 iiK'U anil Scotchmen u ilhout such Kiirplusage. Tlie li ne. il li 
 
 st;iteiiK-iit Ik- true. <.ver e<jui|i|»e<i with theory and PfM-d wit: 
 
 jiiaeticJil jkirts. It is on coiii|>eten(v <leiuonj.traU;J in juimk n jmrtK thai 
 |)i».xtiiieii rest their claiiits for wiuitv. • 
 
 No iMiint h:i- '- • ' ' Mr.' Hill um to hiit ••market value" princijile 
 
 il)lilvinj,' to iHi .u- xhuwn hy the number in a chronic iitat* of 
 
 |Mivertv and h , ■ not of great market value. The principle 
 
 ^^olll<l iiiei-t with k'»»t reumtance here, but he <loe«i not recommend dirt'' 
 [■plication with givater riK'"»r than it at preKcnt oijerates. I will Hh(•^■ 
 iiis imiirect iutentionn. 
 
 There is no contention av'aiu>t tlie collective and nuiitaiiied foroe of on 
 country, us Gfivemincnt > ' ' ' n / . .^ . . ... ,, ^ 
 
 wa-jes and (lL"<tril>wtinj^ i ' 
 
 fraction of men living t<. i..... j- -. ;. ■> ••- , !' 
 
 wiihivv.s and children, as set forth in our scheme. Our d 
 lavouralile tre;itmi-ut of jKiiice officer.* i.i not said to !• 
 Xtither is the ina lei|uacy of our pension.s and poverty of ti.sc-<l-up |hjsIiii- 
 ilisputed : hut Mr. I^'win Hill, hy a.x^*erting that over!«eer.<. in^jiectom. etc. 
 ni.w pensioned were once iK«tmen. in some mysterious way seems to imply 
 th:it the big jKMi.-^ion.*! of high oftlciaN <onc*> jiostnien) are a source of relief 
 to the 12.3 i>iT cent, of postmen i ! un<ler 6s. per week, and tlie 
 
 24.8 per cent, more ih-nsione-l \iv r week from '92 to '96. The 
 
 gieater age of postnu-n wh'-n iH.'n>i"ii. i -i iic<l one ye.t- •• — ■ ' ■•'••• '-"n- 
 sioners of the P.O.) is mi.sleading. In tlie '93 ivnd '94 J je 
 
 age of the jHJstmen jiensioned is 55.8 years, tlie avera^- -s. 
 
 There are. however. 71 out of 156 men rural jKistmen. Tiiei«e average 67 
 years of age. and 27.7 of service, which reduces the average age of the 
 otlier 85 postmen to 54.9 years, a difference of two years', tliough the Berrice 
 average is nearly the sime. The explanation is. iliat the limit of age for 
 rural men when joining is 45 years, an I has alwjys V>een higher than any 
 other branch of the service. I am struck. ho>»-ever. with one feature of 
 this: — The rural postmen are V>ut 27 \yer cent, of postmen, yet in '93 and '94 
 iiatl 45 j)er cent, of the postmen i»ensioned. 
 
 I would point out that Mr. Hill's comparison of maxima between post- 
 men and police is an untrue bi-sis of calculation : from minimum to maxi- 
 mum, with the rate of increase in actual wage-s affect all. and may be said. 
 for calculating purposes, to be invariable. Ali<iwances and promotion are 
 accidental, and affect only certain individuals of a cla.?-s. and are irregular 
 as to tin\es of bestowal. One-fourth. Mr. Hill says, have allowances in the 
 ])rovinces. three-fourtlis are therefore permanently without. In large towns 
 the average service of a man commencing an allowance mitrht be 10 to 15 
 vears' service ; the average life in harness, according to >Ir. Hill, is 20 
 years, therefore the number of years in receipt of allowance few. Your 
 lordship said to Mr. Reid, inspector. " But still it (minimum) is a material 
 point. Wlien a man is first appointed it makes a vast deal of difference
 
 Rejoinder by Mr. John "Walsh, Liverpool. 649^ 
 
 whether lie gets £80. £120, or £140. I cannot admit vou are riglit in shut- 
 ting out the question of minimum altogetlier." To sliow the weakness of 
 his maxima comparison. I have only to divide liis £1.327 12s. 10<l. by his 
 20 years, to tind that £66 7s. 7d. a year, or £1 5s. 6id. per week, is the 
 I)08tmiin's average in Liveri)ool iind the large towns. The police rate for the 
 first year in Liverpool is £1 5s. jier week, the secoml £1 7s. per week, as 
 shown by the police circubr I apj^end. wliile tiie policeman's uniform is 
 more expensive, his boot allowance greater, and his cliauces of promotion 
 not to be comixtred. Tn a force of 1,442 constables there are 248 higher 
 {Hjsitions, worth from £88 8s. to £440 per aiuium. The police have no split 
 duties — or none to speak of here — therefore work about one to two hours 
 a day less than postmen, and have one day a fortnight off, in lieu of Sun- 
 day work. The j)olicem:4u"s height or weight would l>e no more use to him 
 in the Pust Office than the trade of a joiner or compositor. It is not the 
 re<|uisite smartness and intelligence are the quantities in demand, and big 
 men iiavc not a monopoly, as shown by the nund)er of small men in govern- 
 ing iMJsitioiis. nils argument, therefore, fails. 
 
 Mr. Hill's proposed iiunipulation of our wagis \Miuld involve a loss to 
 jiostmen in tlw second 20 yeaj-s of £104 4s. 4d., i.nd a further loss on 
 IieLsion of one-tift«enth ; in the case of a 40 years' m;in receiving two-thirds 
 this Mould mcin Is. 4d. per week for the rest of his life. I have shown 
 our ixnsions now are only a little over half that received by the other 
 84x:tions for the saute numl>er of years' service. 
 
 His proiKjsals would aggravate and intensify every existing form of dis- 
 conttnt. Uniformity, as in the jx-nny poskige, the treatment of army, 
 navy, and Irish Constabulary as U) jkiv and promotion, is the only 
 wise .stdution of our dithculties. The marWt value of labour (men). — The 
 class whose bone.s are ground to ixiwder by this principle (Scripture phrase- 
 ology is the iHKjrest workers. The law or voic«> of the luition prohibit* 
 comfK-tition against |K>stiil work, and comm-inds that charges for such ser 
 vice shill be uniform tliroughout the land — jKinr and rich district alike. 
 Nccistiity iiii|R'ls the community t<j come in and buy postiil service, but 
 tlie v^reater necessity of «)ne man or firm over another Ls no advantage to the 
 l'<»st Office in allowuig higher cliarges or extortiim. Greater deniiuid is an 
 incieised opportunity for j<rofit to trailers. But this institution, so pro- 
 tecttvl and so limited by law, takes the keenest a*lvant;ige of the needs of 
 the [)o<ir worker, and of the low market value of labour in his jMjor district. 
 
 Ilenmnerative or i)rolitabIe exj)enditure. — Suppose at Liverpool you have 
 10 jior cent, profit on a po-Jtmin receiving 30s. per week, at Harrogate 
 vou charge the same for your s^'rvice to th-? public, but p.iy your postman 
 36 jx-r cent, less; your profit at Harn-giie will Ih- nearly 50 per cent., for 
 you cliarge the saine for the mark's service, and re<iuire out of liim a similar 
 i^mh^Ikt of hours' service to the man at Liverpool. 
 
 What is profit? It is the amount overcharged the public at the counter, 
 to be returned to the mune public in surplus as remitter of some other form 
 of contribution or ta.x— a very exjH?nsive method of handing in money and 
 allowing it to filter tlirough many hands that you m ly get a portion of it 
 Luk. Sir U. Hill is quoted to warn us that higher wages attract superior 
 l)ersons. and would have the efiFect of making our present positions pre- 
 carious, but the late I'.M.fi's. report and Mr. Lewiii Hill dispose of this, 
 for they contend there are few resignations, and that our wages are as sure 
 ;is the sun's ris.- ; and yet the standard of education and wages have 
 botli risen I 
 
 Mr. Hill also "-uiiH/rts our claim for retirement at 50. for he says that men 
 l»ecome slow at 50. and adds he himself beciime slow years ago. He cannot, 
 then, consistently say c»ur nmch heavier work would have a less enfeebling 
 effect on us. Mr. Hill pleals that I have in the Liverpool case exaggerated : 
 thiji is but opinion of degree, and not evidence of detailed fact. My state- 
 ments are— excej»t the mistake in dates — strictly and severely true. Seven
 
 »;.')() Kcjoindor by Mr. JoiiN Walsh, Liverpool. 
 
 liiiiil-carts and seven big tdegranh lads hare been put on at the morning 
 ilflivcry to assist. Tlin-e walks liavu' liet-n split uji, aii<l extni iiitn put on 
 IIkmii. Two trollies have been invented to fit a hydraulic hoist, hitherto 
 lit tie used, iind letters are now taken up, a whole Hection at a time. 
 I'iircelH and jtapers are also taken up in tliis hoist, and thette we liav< 
 since found tcj weigh up to 170 Ib.s. in certjim bags, yet even now th' 
 (Itdivery at head otHce in the mornings is not started on Heveral of the bi^' 
 walks until near 8 a.m., though due at 7 a.m. 1 have seen, years ago, 
 every man able to go out with the work at 7 a.m. 
 
 The density of work under presstire. — The extra man added to 1 and 12 
 walks should reduce the time booked on each of the.se walks 8 liours. It 
 will be found not to Ijav- reduced the time booked 2 hours. W. Younj; 
 is .iiiother man who bur-t a blfM»d vessel, no doubt through heavy work 
 fliid W. Taylor and J. Hrown know something more on tiie Klliott case. 
 'J'he Al>orayon case was r''iK)rted to me by a postman, and a8 I regarde<l 
 it !us hearsay. I sent direct for jMirticulars, as in the Formby case, enclosing 
 a stam|x'd envelope for reply. I received no reply, and nierely mentioiied 
 it in onler that if a vestige of truth was fouml in it the man might have 
 justice done him. My real oliject in this pliase of the case was, however, 
 to prove the inter-dependence of workers on each other, and show how tin 
 weaker or poorer worker suffers through the indulgence granted aristocratir 
 workei-s. The case was ca,rcfully worded as a .supjKisitory one. I might 
 liave used Cork or any other town, and given the actual wages to illustrate 
 my jHjint. 
 
 [ regret extremely to say tint Mr. .loyce lia'S V)een misinformed. I have 
 never been ottered a nomination f(*r a sortin? clerkship, I wouhl hav< 
 declined one, however, these 12 years past, as I could not, with a growin;.' 
 family, have forfeited 7s allowance. 
 
 It is jiLso untiue that Mr. Dodd acted inspector the first and longest 
 s|)ell because of tMsea.'^ed bone. He had no Ji.sease or knowledge of di.seased 
 bone when first selected. Mr. Dodd has. however, been treated by Mr. 
 Tiirkett ami all concerned with great kindness during his sickness, and I 
 trust the intioduction of this gooil officer's name, for the purpose of justice, 
 v.ill not cause a diminution of indulgence to him. The opinion amongst 
 postmen here is that seniority in postmen's c<'i.se, and theirs alone, acts 
 against them as a crime. At this moment ill the men acting as inspectors 
 are juniors to hundreds of postmen in Liverpool. 
 
 .JoHX Wal.sh, Sorting Postman. 
 (Witness.) 
 
 The following has also been forwarded to and accepted by the Committee 
 as evidence : — 
 
 Extract from " Liverpool Daily Post "' of Tuesday. 9tli June. 1896, show- 
 ing a recent increase in police wages here : — 
 
 THE PAY OF THE POLICE FORCE. 
 
 RECOMMEXDED INCREASE. 
 
 Yesterday the Watch Committee of the City Council had under considera- 
 tion the report which the Head Constable (Captain Xott-Bower) was directed 
 to present in reference to tlie recent memorial from sergeants and constables
 
 Rejoinder by Mr. John Walsh, Liverpool. 651 
 
 asking for an increase of pay. The Head Constable recommended, and 
 the committee approved of. the following — 
 
 REVISED SCALE OF PAY. 
 
 
 Pav per 
 
 Pension Fund 
 
 
 Bank. 
 
 Week. 
 
 Deduction. 
 
 Promoted in Class. 
 
 Sebgeants — 
 
 
 
 
 Isf Class. 
 
 ,. 40s 
 
 l8 Od ... 
 
 After 7 years in rank. 
 
 2nd Class, 
 
 .. :-'.8s . 
 
 08 Ud ... 
 
 „ 3 „ 
 
 :^rd Class, 
 
 .. 36s . 
 
 .. Os lOd ... 
 
 On Appointment. 
 
 CONSTAULES — 
 
 
 
 
 l8t Class, 
 
 ■Ms . 
 
 .. Os 9d ... 
 
 After 10 years' service. 
 
 2nd Cla-8, 
 
 .. :'.0s . 
 
 .. Os 9d ... 
 
 „ 7 „ „ 
 
 3rd Class. 
 
 29s . 
 
 .. Os 8d ... 
 
 „ t „ 
 
 4th Class. 
 
 .. 288 . 
 
 .. Os 8d ... 
 
 >> 2 ,, ,, 
 
 5tli Class, 
 
 .. ■ 27h . 
 
 .. Os 8d ... 
 
 ;) A »> J> 
 
 Probationers, . 
 
 25s 
 
 .. Os 7d ... 
 
 On Appointment. 
 
 Tliere will Ik? a merit cla.ss for sergeants, carrying 2s. jier week extra 
 pay; the niimh^er of sergeants promoted to this class not to exceed 10 per 
 cent, of the total strength. Constiibli-s on day point duty to receive Is. 
 per week beyond the alxive rates. Tliere will also be three merit classes 
 for constables, distinguished by iKidges. each badge cirrying Is. per week 
 extra piy. constable to bo eligible for the tir.st badge after 15 years' service, 
 5 years' clean lutoks, and eertlHed etticiency, or for ;uiy specially meritorious 
 conduct; for the second Iwidge after 20 years' ."service, ten ye^nrs' clean books, 
 and certified efficiency, r)r for any siiecialiy meritorious conduct ; and for 
 the third badge, for sj)ecially meritorious conduct only. 
 
 The present rat** of pay for constables varies from 25s. to 30s. i>er week 
 as a maximum for class promotion, with a possii)le increase to 32s. for merit 
 services. For sergeants the present rate is from 34s. to 38s., with 40s. for 
 merit services. By the revised scale the maximum in both ranks of the 
 force, a{Kirt from merit services, has been approximated to ^^anchester. 
 where the sergeants recently received an incre<ise of 2s. ])er week, and the 
 older constiibles have been in a letter position than in Liverpool. The cost 
 of the increase is e.stiinatoil by Capt;tin Xott-Bower at £1,980 i)er annum, 
 of which £990 would fall upon the Ivxcheijuer, and £410 upon the Dock 
 Board. 
 
 It will be se*n that these three merit shillings raise the police maximum 
 to 35s. per week, without counting the Is. given to day point duty men. 
 The sergeants have been incre;vsed 2s. per week, and in addition a number of 
 the men receive 2s. extra per week for acting as firemen. The higher 
 positions are in the proportion of 1 to about 6 con.stibles, and in every 
 aise raises the social status of the men ; allowances to postmen do not. 
 as they are mostly in lieu of Cliristmas boxes. 
 
 Yours obediently, 
 
 Joitv Walsh, Sorting Postman. 
 (Witness.)
 
 REJOINDKl? HV THK NOlTIXfl HILL BliANX'H. 
 
 Notting Hill. S.O. 
 
 Tin- Kl^^'lll lliiil. JiOlU) TWKKIJMOHTU, 
 
 ("liiirman of the ('oiiitiiitt4»f on I'uKt Office Kstililislmunts. 
 
 MV Jv(PKI., 
 
 1 am iiistnicU-ii liy my eolk-aj^'ues, iiDHliiicii at N'oitmg Hill, to 
 .sulmiit to your ( AjiiimitU-c's coiisidtT.itioii the ffjliowiiij^ rfi)ly to Mr. Bad 
 cork'H stiiteiiu'ut witli reftreuce to Notting Hill, made l>efore your Ooin- 
 niitt-eo on March 19tli : — 
 
 (1st) Tile reason that tlio kitchen i« not more largely ina<Ie use of is 
 not Iwniu.se the men live close to the oflice, but l>ecause, owing to it* 
 gloomy and unhealthy sUite, the men do not use it more than they can 
 poHsiltly help. JOxcluding the two liaul po.stmen. there are 61 estWlishcd 
 men. Of these 14 live within half-a-mile of the office: 17 between half-a- 
 iiiile and a mile; 20 betweiMi one and two miles ; an<l 10 two iniles and over. 
 In juldition to the.se are 24 au.\iliiiries. who mostly live at a distance of 
 lietween one and two miles. 
 
 (2nd) The fact of several largo houses being let out in floors is of no 
 benefit to the postmen ; rather the rever.se. a.s these houses wtticl> formerly 
 lee for about £300 per annum, on being converted intf) Hats, bring in from 
 £500 to £600. the rent ]>er Hat l)eing from £65 to £170 [)er annum, each 
 hou.se containing from five to 8i.x fljits ; and whereas formerly the po.stman 
 delivered the correspon<lence at the front door, he now has to climb five or 
 six flights of stairs. 
 
 (3rd) Three years ago. owing to the increase of the work, it was found 
 nece.ssary to oj^n a new office at North Kensington, fciking a large portion 
 of tiie ground away. At the siime time it was foun<l necessarj' to greatly 
 curtail the walks : since then, as showing the district still ri.ses, another 
 portion of the ground has been transferred to the Kensington ground. 
 giving relief to some of the walks. 
 
 (4th) The rents for aixirtments suitable for postmen are about 8s. to 10s. 
 per week for a floor, within a radius of a mile ; farther out, at Queen's 
 Park and Shepherd's Bush, where many of the men live, small houses can 
 be got at from 10s. to 14s. per week. 
 
 (5th) The town delivery also in one part comes witliin about 500 yar Is of 
 tlie office, which is itself in that important thoroughfare. Westbourne Grove. 
 In several instances the local delivery overlaps the town delivery : for 
 ii'Stiinee, in delivering High Street. Xotting Hilj, the Xotting Hill man 
 woul 1 have to pass Pembridge Square. Pembridge Gardens. Linden Ganlens. 
 and Clanricarde Gardens, not merely touching them, but enveloping tliem. 
 
 Liistly. my lord, the official return of the corre.'^pondence delivered, taken 
 the same week in each year, is as follows: — In 1893 the number was 
 202.502 — tliis included the Xorth Kensington portion ; in '94. after North 
 Kensington was a separate office, the numbers were 168.361; in '95 the 
 numbers were 164.542. when another portion had been transferred to Ken- 
 sington : this year the return showed 184,996. being an increase from last 
 ye<ir of 20.454. tlie gi-ound being the same. 
 I am. my Lord, 
 
 Yours obediently. 
 
 H. RowBOTHAM, Local Sec. 
 June 8th, 1896.
 
 REJOINDER LODGED WITH THE COMMITTEE OX BEHALF OF 
 WOOLWICH POSTMEN. 
 
 Tlie Right Hon. Loud TwKF.nMoirrn. 
 
 ("liairiiian of the Committee on Post Office Establishments. 
 
 My Loud, — 
 
 The rebutting evidence given before your Committee by Mr. J. C. 
 Badcock. on tlie 19th March, having special reference tt) the ciuse of the 
 Woolwich postmen, has now been re:ul and considered by my colleagues, 
 .'.nd I am directed by them to submit to your Committee for their considera- 
 tion the following r'-j>ly thereto: — 
 
 (1st) The stiitoment that Croydon. Sutton, and Mitcham were taken out 
 i)f the Metropolit:in area at the sii.ne time as Woolwich is the opposite of 
 fact, and had Mr. liadcock consulted the Official Circular of the 19tli August, 
 1879. he would luive seen that liis .statement was incorrect, and further, 
 I'rovdon, Sutton, an<l Mitcham are not in the County of London, and from 
 information that came from authentic sources we assert tliat these places 
 liave never l)ecn within tiie Metropolitan area for postal purposes, at least 
 not Mithin the memory of the oldest of the postmen employed at the 
 afori'.'^aid offices. 
 
 (2nd) Sorting work at Woolwich is done by sorting clerks. This is also 
 'inly true in jurt. The sorting clerks were not introduced at Woolwicli 
 until 1888. previous t« whicii date the whole of the sorting — inward and 
 outward, district and London forward, despatch of mails, tlie making-up 
 of registered letter bags. etc. — was done l)y ]H)stmen, but for which work 
 not one penny alloAvance wa.s ever received V»y them, and to-day the whole 
 nf the inwar<l sorting is still done by the outdoor jKistmen, who get no 
 :dlowance for the work. The only sorting done by sorting clerks is the 
 outward, which we tiiink pretty well dis])oses of the suggestion of Mr. 
 Walpole that Woolwich jwstmen are not doing such high-cliss woik a.^ tlie 
 postmen in liondon. 
 
 (3r(I) Mr. Badcock sUited that the men serving at the time of the cliange 
 suffered nothing thereby, but he aiimits at the same numient that the change 
 lias no doubt been the means of keej)ing do%vn tiie men's wages, which 
 means that the men have suffered, and will continue to do so until a change 
 is effected. 
 
 The men here have a lower minimum and a lower maximum : all hoi)e 
 of promotif)n is absolutely destroyed, and there is no hojje for men obtaining 
 sortersliips except by entering the open competition, a much less favourable 
 fKisition than men in other London offices occu])y. We may also mention 
 that the men serving at the time of the change were not offered the alternative 
 of going to some other office in the districts, or remaining at Woolwicli 
 under the new order of things ; in fact, they were not aware that a cliange 
 wna conteTuplated until the official announcement appeared eleven days 
 [•rior to the transfer. 
 
 My Lf»rd. we live in a <listrict where rents are continually going up in 
 
 nnsequence of the encumons numl>er of hands employed in the Royal 
 
 Arsenal. an<l, jus has already been pointed out to your Committee, our 
 
 expenses are as heavy as those of ti»e postmen in the adjoining London 
 
 •li-xtricts. We do not admit that the re.sponsibilities of London postmen
 
 G54 The Woolwich Rejoinder. 
 
 are any greater than ours, and as Woolwicli is in London for everything 
 else, we ask from tlie Department tliat we he paid London rates of wages, 
 a rei|iiest wliicli we liope will not he considered unreasonahle, and we con- 
 tidently rely on your Committee recommending our idaim. 
 
 Ijastly, my Lord, it is said tliat Woolwicii was tiken out of the Metro- 
 politan area" becjiuse it had become too large. To make any remark upon 
 this is perhaps kieyond our province, hut we cannot help pointing out tliat 
 a great part of the oflicial correspondence for Woolwich travels from 
 London via Tunhridge Wells and vice rrrm, thus travelling a distance of 
 some 77 miles to roatli a place ahout 8 miles from the General Post Office. 
 
 T am. my Lord, 
 
 Yours obediently, 
 
 G. COBMKT. 
 
 Finis,
 
 INDEX. 
 
 The London Cask for Enquiry. 
 
 Pages. 
 
 Abolition of Classification, H. Symes, E.C.D.O. (Floating Staff, &c.), - 142-171 
 
 Auxiliaries, H. M. Wilson, Hampstead S.O., _ . . 63-94 
 
 Christmas Boxes (In relation to the Wages Question), C. J. Warner, 
 
 S.W.D.O., ...--- 46-52 
 
 Discipline, H. Boaler, N.W.D.O. (Punishments, &c.), - - 110-122 
 
 Floating Staff, The— H. Symes, E.C.D.O. (Abolition of 
 
 Classification, &c.), . - . . _ 142-171 
 
 Hours of Duty, D. H. Boston, K»"ntish Town (Heavy Winter Work, 
 
 Number of Attendances, Circulars), - - - - 52-62 
 
 Parcel Post (From a Letter-Carrier's point of view), H. Boaler, 
 
 N.W.D.O., ..---- 95-98 
 
 Parcel Postmeu, G. H. Stuart, S.W.P.P. Depot, - - - 99-109 
 
 Promotion, A. F. Harris, W.D.O.,- . . - - 123-141 
 
 Punishments, H. Boaler, N.W.D.O. (Discipline, &c.), - - 110-122 
 
 Recognition of the Federation, C. Churchfield, E.C.D.O. (Wagei^, 
 
 Minimum, Sanitation), _ _ - - - 21-34 
 
 Sanitation, C. Churchfield, E.C.D.O. (Wages, Recognition of 
 
 the Federation), - - - - - - 21-34 
 
 Superannuation, John Walsh, Liverpool (London and Provincial), - 236-253 
 
 Supernumeraries, W. M. Shephard, New Cross, . _ - 172-179 
 
 Supplementary Case (C. J. Roberts, Hampstead S.O.), C. Church- 
 field, E.C.D.O., ------ 184 186 
 
 Wages, C. Churchfield, E.C.D.O. (Minimum, Recognition of the 
 
 Federation, Sanitation), . _ - - 21-34 
 
 T. G. Barnes, S.E.D.O. (Annual Increment, Zone 
 
 System, Maximum), _ _ - - 35-45 
 
 „ C. J. Warner, S. W.D.O. (Christmas Boxes), - - 46-52 
 
 Woolwich Case, The— Geo. Corbet, Woolwich, - - - 180-183 
 
 Zone System, T. G. Barnes, S.E.D.O., . . - - 35-45 
 
 Thb Provincial Case for Enqviry. 
 
 Auxiliaries, Z. Howe, Sheffield, - - - - 
 
 ,, A. M'Laren, Glasgow, _ - - 
 
 Christmas Boxes Tin relation to the Wages Question, the Initial 
 Wage), A. M'Laren, Glasgow, _ - - 
 
 Discipline, J. S. Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne (Citizen Rights, Recogni- 
 tion of the Federation, Punishments, Late Attendances), 
 
 Holiday and Casual Leave, S. Dowling, Liverpool (Hours of Duty, &c.), 
 
 Indoor and Allowance Class, J. Q. Walton, Newcastle-on-Tyne, 
 
 „ „ S. Wright, Leeds, 
 
 284-295 
 296-314 
 
 187-196 
 
 325-352 
 254-283 
 391-394 
 385-390
 
 <)f)6 Index. 
 
 Pag. - 
 Junior Postmen — S. Wright, Leeds, _ _ _ . 381 -3a i 
 
 Medical Attendance, T. Carmichael, Heckmondwike (Sub-Oflice 
 
 Postmen, &o), - - - - - - 441-439 
 
 Parcel Poat— W. Martin, Manchester, . - . . 315-324 
 
 Promotion— J. Q. Walton, Nawcaitle-oaTyne, - . . 353 370 
 
 S. Wright, Leeds, ----- 371-381 
 
 Punishments, J. S. Pmith, Newcastle-on-Tyne (Citizen Rights, Lat« 
 
 Attendances, Recognition of the Federation), - - - 325 352 
 
 Recognition of the Federation, J. S. Smith, Newcastle-on-Tyne 
 
 (Citizen Rights, Late Attendances, Punishments), - - 325-352 
 
 Rural Postmen, Geo. Gregory, Portadown (Wages, Disparity between 
 
 Town and Rural, Rural Auxiliaries), - - 395 412 
 
 ,, ,, F. B. Baker, Gloucester (Mounted Men, Hours of 
 
 Duty, Examples of Long Walks), - - 413-428 
 
 ,, Thos. Grimmer, Worcester (Wages, Uniform, Parcel 
 
 Post), ----- 429-441 
 
 South County Dublin Case, - - . . - 450-451 
 
 Sub-Office Prstmen, Thomas Carmichael, Heckmondwike (Medical 
 
 Attendance), ------ 442-449 
 
 Superannuation, John Walsh, Liverpool (London and Provincial). - 236-253 
 
 Supplementary Evidence, A. M'Laren, Glasgow, - . . 452-455 
 
 Wages — A. M'Laren. Glasgow ('"hristmaa Boxes, thu Initial Wage), - 137-196 
 
 ., — John Walsh, Liverpool (Wages, Apgr-gatc. Special!. ivcr- 
 
 pool Cases, Comparisons, Statistic- 1, . - . 
 
 Nok-Fbdkkation C/.hfp. 
 
 Dublin Case. The-Mr. Dorm, Dublin. - - - . 474-'! 
 
 E.C.D.O. Case— W. C. Herbert, E.C.D.O., - - - 455-".' 
 
 Liverpool (Indoor and Allowance Staff), Fred Smith, Liverpool, - 4C5-4 
 
 Rbhltting the Case. 
 
 Jasper C. Badcock, Esq., rebutting the London Case, - - 486 
 
 E. B. Lewin Hill. E?q., rebutting the Provincial Case on all cases 
 
 excepting Promotion and Discipline, - - - 607-627-629 
 
 Herbert Joyce, Esq., rebutting the Cases of Promotion and Discipline, - 608-626 
 
 Reioindbkp. 
 
 The London Rejoinder, ------ 630-633 
 
 The Provincial, ,, - - - - - - 634-647 
 
 Rejoinder by Mr. John Walsh, Liverpol. - - - - 648-651 
 
 Notting Hill Rejoinder. ----- 652 
 
 Woolwich ,, - - - - - - 653-654 
 
 Preface, - ------ 3-4 
 
 A Chapter of Postal Service History, by A. M'Laren, Glasgow. - 5-2'' 
 
 rrintol bv ALEX. Maioolm & Co.. 34 Ann Street, (Sty. Glasgow.
 
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