f ■w->»*ri,!^h» ysi>jptr«w-,jB>wsgty«fl!wwi»» « »' *» >''#'g y » ''a p»< ^ (WOwGL, / Cyhr idly, and in order to comply with tlie conces- sion and expend $2,000,000, whicli we were compelled to expend during the first year. I began work, and as a result of it I constructed a railroad eleven and a half miles from Greytown across the lagoon up to the point of the first lock. This was a substantial railroad, built under very great difticulties. During that entire season the land from Grey- town to Lock No. 1 was under water, because it was the rainy season. The water was from 2 to 4i feet deep, and the ground was covered with tropical vegetation. I was told by railroad men and engineers that 1 could not build this within the time, and that it could only be built by putting up trestles and piles the entire distance. I was not satisfied with that judgment, and finally called into counsel Mr. C. P. Treat, of Chicago, a young, energetic man who had made a fortune in the West building railroads, lie had spent months going over the pro^wsed line, with a view of making a bid upon a portion of the work. I asked him if he could build a railroad in the lagoon within the time at a reason- able price. The object was, of course, to enable us to get into the foothills up to the locks and the great divide, because the length of tiuie required to build the canal was based upon the length of time required to build the locks and cut the divide, a distance of 13 miles from Greytown. Mr.Treat went to Nicaragua. I sent an agent to Jamaica, and he sent a large number of v/orkmen from Jamaica. I sent rails, ties, and a working train, and the work began with 1,000 men. The ground was under water substan- tifjlly the entire distance, and the men worked in the water during the whole time. The railroad was constructed by cutting down trees and building a corduroy road some 4 feet in thickness of solid wood the entire distance. Upon this the track was laid, and sand (dredged from the mouth of the canal) carried by train was put upon this temporary track or wooden road until it was buried in the sand ; and in that way the road was built for the entire distance, and to-day, after a period of five years, it is in fair order. I have passed over it at the rate of 20 miles an hour. The road was constructed within the time at a cost, which our books will show, of $32,000 a mile, and was completed perfectly. That included 10 per cent commission paid to Mr. Treat for doing the work. We employed 1,600 men all the time, and but seven or eight died, and four of those were killed by accidents upon the road. Only four or five died from the effects of the climate. I speak of that to show you that Nicaragua is not so unhealthy a climate as has been generally repre- sented. All these statements which I make can be verified by the records of the company. We also purchased at the same time the entire dredging plant of the American Dredging Company, which had done substantially all the work at Panama and which originally cost nearly $2,000,000. We began the actual excavation of the canal at Greytown Harbor, and excavated to a depth of 17 feet a distance of nearly 2 miles, and the work remains to show for itself. We also began the construction of a pier which was to make the entrance into the harbor safe. We extended this pier a distance of 1,000 feet; finally it is to be extended nearly 6,000 feet. The construction of this pier, with a little dredging, made a depth of 14 feet over the bar, and it was maintained at that until the company, under stress of financial difficulties, was compelled to suspend 6 NICARAGUA CANAL. Operations. We proved tliat there was no difficnlty in opening tlie harbor. Jjefore that time vessels had to lie ont, and the freight was taken to the shore in lighters and hauled up in the sand by the power of human labor. This railroad Avas completed at this price, and it was a cheaper piece of work than any that ever has been done in the United States or anywhere else in the world. It shows what work will cost in that country. Mr. Menocal bad estimated tlie cost at $60,000 per mile, and we built it at $29,000 per mile and paid Mr. Treat a commission of 10 per cent for his services and skill, which carried the cost up to $32,000. I mention this in order to show you the cost of building railroads in that country, and also to show you that we built at one-half of our engineer's estimate. We went on with the work and with the negotiations. Immediately after I came into the company negotiations began with the Baring Bros., of London. They sent gentlemen to our office in Xew York, an engineer and a lawyer, to examine our affairs. Those gentlemen made an examination and returned to Loudon, but within thirty days after their return the Baring Bros.' failure came on, and from that time to this there never has been a time when an enterprise of this character could have been floated, except at very low rates for its securities. The panic of 1893 came, and the construction company was compelled to suspend operations tirst, and finally it was compelled to go into the hands of a receiver. This, mind you, did not aft'ect the parent company, which then held, and now holds, the concessions. Immediately after tbe Con- struction Company went into the hands of a receiver, a committee was organized and took the matter up, and after some nine or ten months of work, a new company was organized, the affairs of the old company were settled up, and every dollar of its obligations was paid. The new company was charteied by the legislature of the State of Vermont, and was organized last spring, which took the assets of the old com- pany, the contract for building the canal, and the stockholders of the old company of course came into possession of a large part of the stock of the new company in exchange for their holdings in the original company. This briefly is the condition of affairs at the present time. The Mari- time Canal Company own the concessions from the Government of Nicaragua, and their standing with that Government is in a satisfac- tory condition. It is also in a condition to enter into negotiations for the procurement of money and for completing the work. I said at the beginning that I was not here to advocate this bill or any other bill. This bill I have never read, although one of the mem- bers of the committee sent me a copy of it. Soon after I became ])r('si- dent in 1890, I came to Washington upon some private business, and while sitting in the room of the Secretary of the Senate, Gen. Anson McCook, my personal friend. Senator Edmunds, of Vermont, came in and congratulated me upon having taken up the Nicaraguan Canal and wished me success. He asked, "How do you expect to get funds to build this canal?" I said, "We expect .to do it in the usual way by issuing se(;urities and selling them at such price as we can get. If we can not sell them at par, as we do not expect to, we may get 80 or 70, and if Ave can not do tiiat, perhaps we can get (>(►. I shall undertake in some way to sell enough to get money to build the canal." Senator Edmunds said to me, "Will you be able to sell them in this country?" I said, "I shall try to sell them here, and, failing in that, I shall go abroad; and of course as this country is taking vast sums of money frouj Europe to build railroads at the present time, it will i)rob- NICARAGUA CANAL. 7 ably be necessary to secure the bulk of the money abroad." He then said, " Wliere will the control be then, if the majority of the stock is held abroad"?" I replied, "Of course the control will go to those who furnish a majority of the money with which to build it, and that should be the case." He said that ought not to be. It ought to be an Amer- ican enterprise, and we ought to raise the money and have it controlled by the American people. I said, " Senator, as a patriotic citizen I agree with your statement that it ought to be an American enterprise, and we ought to make it such and keep it as such ; but my duty to the stockholders is to get the money where and how I can." A few days afterwards, I received a letter from the Foreign Aifairs Committee of the Senate asking me to come to Washington to be exam- ined by that committee of the Senate in executive session. I came, and remained here for several days. It turned out then that Senator Ednnmds had introduced into the Senate in executive session a resolu- tion instructing the Committee on Foreign Affairs to inquire into the condition of the Nicaragua Canal and the Maritime Comj^any, and report to the Senate what the condition of it was, and what, if anything, the Congress of the United States ought to do in regard to the matter. Then things went on for several weelcs and months. I made several visits to this city, being called by the committee. The committee finally said to me that they thought as a committee the Government of the United States ought to be interested in this enterprise, and perhajis ought to control it, and asked me to state upon what terms the company would be willing for the Government to go into the enterprise. I said, "I will go back to New York and consult the leading stockholders, and wfll give you an answer." I went back to New York, and consulted with the leading men in the enterprise, and replied by letter to Senator Sherman, chairman of the committee, that in our judgment the stock- holders of the Nicaragua Canal Company would be willing that the Government should take control of the company, provided it wonld return to us the amount of money that we had expended upon the enterprise up to that time, and also give us stock of the Maritime Com- pany to whatever amount tliey saw fit as a bonus, or bounty, for the time and energy we had expended and the risk we had taken in putting our money into the enterprise. The members of the committee expressed their belief that that was a most liberal offer upon our i^art. Tlie committee upon the strength of that prepared a report and a bill, which was reported to the Senate. The terms of the bill I do not remember, but the record will sliow what they were. It provided for the return of the money we had expended, and provided also that the Secretary of State and the Sec- retary of the Treasury should audit our accounts and determine what amount we had expended, and also provided for giving us some of the stock of the Maritime Company as a bonus for our time, trouble, and risk. What that amount was, I have now forgotten. No action was had upon that bill ; but the next year the same committee took it ux) again, and asked me again to come before the committee, which I did, and gave them ray suggestions. During all this time, I had traveled over the United States and Europe. I had made three trips to the Pacific Coast. I had spoken in nearly every city of importance in the United States, before many of the Chambers of Commerce, and other bodies in regard to this enter- prise, endeavoring to educate the people of the country up to the importance of tlie undertaking, thereby seeking to secnre the coopera- tion of the American people in taking stock and bonds j but I found. 8 NICARAGUA CANAL. wherever I went, that after the Senate Committee had reported its first bill, the people generally came to the conclusion that it ought to be a Government enterprise and be controlled by the Government, instead of by private individuals. The people said that if they put their money into it, the Government will come in and take the canal and we shall simply get a return of the money, without any especial profit being allowed for the rislc which we may take. I then came before the com- mittee with this knowledge. 1 had traveled over the country three times, almost 50,000 miles, made speeches, and wi'itten many articles. I told the committee wliat I had found to be the o])inion of the people — that the Government ought to control it. I said, "If you want to go on with this enterprise, I will make this suggestion : Let the Government guarantee the bonds of the company for wliatever amount may be necessary, and for this the Gov- ernment can take and put into the Treasury of the United States either $70,000,000 or $80,000,000 of the stock of the company, and absolutely own it, because of this guaranty, upon the same prinei])le tliat one man pays another 5 or 10 per cent for indorsing his note." Tlie Government to indorse the bonds and receive three-fourths of the stock, thus becom- ing the controller of the situation. The Government was to appoint ten of the fifteen directors, and one director was to be appointed by Nicaragua and one by Costa Eica; the third would be elected by the outside stockholders. Substantially, that kind of a bill was reported, the exact terms of which I do not now recall. Time went on, and last winter this same bill was reported by Senator Morgan, with some changes, and it finally passed the Senate. The com- pany was not entirely satisfied with its terms, because it gave the company no power whatever in deciding how much money had been expended by the company, and whether tlie expenditures were just and right. It provided that the Secretary of State and the Secretary of the Treasury should be the absolute judges as to the amount expended by the comi^any. We thought it ought to have been decided by a com- mission, of which the company should appoint one and the Government appoint one, and they, failing to agree upon any matter, should appoint the third, and then their decision was to be final. The amount of stock set apart for us was less than we thought was just, but we made no special complaint, and I presume that if the bill had been passed and become a law the stockholders would have surrendered their rights and would have given the Government the entire control. ]\[y belief as an officer of the corporation was briefly this: The Government to guarantee the bonds at 3 per cent for the building of the canal, and the revenues of the canal were to be set a])art first — supposing the canal to cost, in round figirres, a hundred million dollars — three millions to pay interest Mr. Patterson. What is the amount of the capitalization, $100,- 000,000? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; the capital was not to be disposed of. About $1,000,000 was estimated as the probable cost of maintaining and improving the canal, which was about the cost of maintaining the Suez Canal, and $1,000,000 was to be put into a sinking fund, so" that in sixty years the sinking fund would have entirely paid oft' the bonded debt. The Government would never have advanced a cent, and would be the owner of $70,000,000 or $80,000,000 of the $100,000,000 of capi- talization. We neither sought nor opposed the passage of that bill. We have refused to have anything to do with the passage of any legislation. NICARAGUA CANAL. 9 This is tlie first time in five years that I have ever appeared before a House committee, or moutioued the matter even to the JNIember of the House from my own district. Mr. Sherman, the Meuiber from my dis- trict, can tell you that I never i)resented the matter to him in any shape whatever. I said to Mr. Sherman that I would not come before your committee unless I was requested to do so. We have never asked for a hearing", and under no circumstances will we come here to ask any- thing-. If, following out the suggestions of Senator Morgan and Senator Edmunds, the Congress of the United States sees fit to pass a measure which is just and fair to us, undoubtedly the stockholders, who are nearly all Americans, will accept that decision and turn over the control of this great enterprise to the Government. Mr. Sherman. You might say further, that you declined even to express an opinion to me of your iireference as between three bills which I handed you. Mr. MiLLEK. Not only that, but I have not read them. In fact, I declined to read them. We have felt that if the people of the United States thought that this enterprise ought to be an American enterprise, we as American citizens would not stand in the way of it, no matter what our i)rospeetive prohts in such enterprise might be. It is now five years since the Government first took it up, and we have felt for .sev- eral years that we had a cause of grievance against the Government in this matter, for, since it became known tliat the Senate was considering- it, and had reported a bill, it became substantially impossible to get any money anywhere. The American people had said Congress ought to do this, so that it can control tolls and run the canal for the benefit of the people. Foreign bankers have said: ^' We can not take this up now, because by the time we have raised and expended several millions on it the Government of the United States will step in and take it away from us, and we shall get nothing but our cash in return. In other words, our profits will never be realized, and therefore we will not touch it until the Government of the United States has decided what it will do." We have been in this condition that during all these years it has been impossible to raise money, except from the original subscribers. Now, these men who have furnished money and have been assessing themselves to keep up the property, keep n\) an office, and all the nec- essary expenses connected with an enterprise like this, could not abandon it entirely. The result has been that the old subscribers have been compelled to add to their subscriptions. When the company was reor- ganized every one of the old stockholders who were able remained and paid their assessments of $3.50 i)er share. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What is your belief relative to the ability of the company to raise money, if the Government had not interfered or had not taken the matter up ? Mr. Miller. I have not any doubt that, if there had not been any interference on the part of Congress, we could have raised the money. I was appealing to the American people, and received everywhere cor- dial support until this matter was introduced into Congress; then I was met everywhere with the proposition that it ought to be a Govern- ment matter, and I found that private individuals would not take it up. Since 1893 the financial situation has been bad, and it has been difficult to obtain money. The company would have been justified in ofteriug bonds at low prices, which would have appealed to the speculative spirit of the American people and foreigners. I have no doubt that ftince 1893 we would have been able to get $25,000,000. 10 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. PATTERSON. I tliink you correctly reflect the opinion of the United States wlien you say the people de^sire the Government to own and control this canal; but the one question in the minds of some of us is as to the practicability of constructing the canal within reasona- ble limitations of cost. Mr. Miller. That I am coming- to, with the permission of the com- mittee. I want to have the position of the company in regard to this fully understood. It is constantly being misrepresented by its oppo- nents, and also by people w^ho are not familiar with the facts, and therefore 1 desire to put before the committee the exact conditions existing from the beginning down to the present time. Last winter a bill passed the Senate. There was not time to get it up in the House, owing to the fact that the 4th of ]\[arch was near; but there was placed upon one of the appropriation bills $20,000, to be expended by a United States Com- mission to be appointed by the President to be sent to Nicaragua for the purpose of making an investigation and report. That appropria- tion was passed, a Commission was appointed, and they made a report to the President, which was finally transmitted to Congress. The object of the appointment of this Commission, of course, was well understood; that it was to gain time and delay. The friends of the enterprise in the Senate and House, as 1 understand it, accepted this appropriation in good faith as the only thing that could be done. No one connected with the company had anything to say about it. Immediately after it became a law, I called the directors of the com- pany together, and we voted to spend whatever money was necessary to put the line in condition, so that it could be seen by the commis- sioners. The appropriation of $20,000 made by the Government for three commissioners, after ]iaying their salaries, left very little for the necessary work of investigation, and had not the company come to the aid of the commission by expending its own moneys the investigation would have been impossible. The company expended for this purpose in opening up the line and rebuilding camps for taking care of the commissioners and the service of the men nearly as much as the Gov- ernment had appropriated; and tlie company turned over to the com- mission, when it sat in New York, all its notes and surveys, which had cost nearly $500,000. Those were put into the hands of the commission unreservedly. Mr. Patterson. Who were the Commissioners'? Mr. Miller. Major Ludlow, Mr. Endicott, and Mr. Noble, a civil engineer from Chicago. The impression has gone out that the rejiort was adverse to the canal, but a careful reading will show that the report is not adverse. It makes many recommendations in regard to changes in the proposed line and in the works. It calls in question the wisdom of some of the plans made by the company and recom- mends changes which would largely increase the cost of the canal; and after making a detailed estimate of the cost, it says that it lacks suth- cient data by which to make a proper estimate. It finds, however, as w\as found by several engineers tliroughout the world, both great and small, who have examined it, that the i)lan is entirely feasible; that the canal can be built, and I may a(hl that it is, in the judgment of all the best engineers who have examined the matter thoroughlj^, the only possible route across the isthmus which can be constructed at a reason- able cost. This Commission ])la('es the cost at $l.'53,001),0l)0. Now, I want to call your attention to some of the statements of this Commission. I do not Avant to weary you, or take your time by going into a detailed examination from a technical or engineering standpoint. NICARAGUA CANAL. 11 because Mr. Menocal, the engineer of the company, who has made three surveys, two of them for the Government, and who has spent many years in examining this route, is perfectly able to defend his surveys and estimates. Having the report of the Commission before him he has prepared and submitted for your use an ehiborate discussion of this question from every standpoint, and as president I am perfectly willing to stand upon that argument before the best engineers in the world. When in London our plans were submitted to Sir John Good, who was the leading engineer of England and who planned and executed many important harbor works for tlie English Government. He studied the plans for several weeks, until he was thoroughly ftimiliar with them. He said that they were practicable, and the only change he recom- mended was that the cut through the great rock divide should be Increased from 80 to 100 feet in width, but that the harbors at Grey- town and Brito were correct in plan, and if carried out would furnish two great safe harbors for this canal. I simply mention that because we have to rely upon the testimony of engineers, and w^e have in Sir John Good a man whose opinion is worth much in a great work like this, and it is proi)er and just that I should refer to him. Four years ago when I went to Nicaragua I spent more time in examining the line than this Gommission spent, for they only spent fourteen days on the line of the canal, and there are parts of it they never saw. When I went over the line, 1 took with me Mr. Donaldson, one' of the principal engineers of the Manchester ship canal, now chief engineer of the London docks. He made a thorough, careful, and elaborate study of the canal and the plans of our company, and reported to his i)rincipals, Messrs. Walker & Go., contractors, that the canal was feasible, and that the cost of the canal w^oald be less than $100,000,000. Mr. Bartlett. In the report of the Government Gommission I think it is -stated that there is no precedent for the construction of a dam such as the Ochoa dam. Mr. Miller. I will come to that. If this Commission had had a little experience in such matters it would have known better. I understand that the chief has been sent abroad to examine similar works. I think if the Government had sent him abroad before he made his investiga- tions in Nicaragua he would have been better able to have spoken in regard to it. The report of the Gommission begins and ends by criticising the plans of the engineer, but the Commission is compelled substantially to admit that finally the work as planned can be done. The first proposition they make is that the entrance to Greytown Harbor shall be moved about a mile and a half to the east. The reason given for it is of no value whatever. The entrance as laid down by the company is the original entrance where, in 1819 and 1850, during the California gold excitement, vessels went in with over 20 feet of water. It was an open harbor for many years, but finally a bar was formed. The company naturally supposed that a good place to make an entrance to a harbor would be where one existed many years before, and they adopted this place, but only extended the pier out 1,000 feet and got 11 feet of water. It can be maintained at little cost. If we had had money we would have completed the pier 0,000 feet, where we could have obtained 30 feet of water without difficulty, and it would have been maintained at less cost than the cost of maintaining the entrance to the Suez Canal. Mr. Patterson. How did you construct that picrl 12 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. MiLLEE. It was constructed by putting down piles in rows. We nuide it 10 feet wide and filled it in with stone and concrete. Since the work was commenced on that point the whole engineering world has come to adopt a clieaper method of building. The great break- water on the Columbia liiver was constructed by driving piles the whole length of the proposed pier and putting a railroad on the top, by which the*^A^ork was carried out and placed the entire length of the pier, consti- tuting what is known as riprap or a loose wall i)rojecting out so that the force of the waves is destroyed. The reason the waves do not do any harm is that there is a gradual slope, and the force of the waves is broken and no harm is done the main work. It is upon that plan that the great breakwaters are now built. Mr. Patterson. Are these wooden piles not subject to being spoiled by the toredo? Mr. Miller. They would be in time; but they are only a temporary structure. I found them in Amsterdam on my visit to Holland. They have built piers there on the plan of the Eades jetties at the mouth of the Mississippi Eiver. They are breakwaters built with perpendicular sides, with artificial stone blocks packed with loose rock. The result of that kind of structure is that the waves come in and beat against this work without doing any harm. Our work was built by driving piles and putting a railroad track upon it, and bringing rock and dumping it into the ocean, making a pier which the waves could not destroy. Mr. Patterson. And the rock excavated is used for that purpose? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Mr. Patterson. What is now the condition of the canal, as far as you have constructed it out from Greytown through the alluvial soil? Mr. Miller. The Commission reports that the banks stand peri^en- dicularly, just as they were built five years ago. There has been no change. The damage there is much less than it is in a northern coun- try on account of the climate, there being no frost. It stands in perfect repair. In reference to the entrance to the harbor being moved a mile and a half east, I would say that, in the first place, we could not go there, because the Nicaraguan Government would not allow us to go there. If we went there we would be in Costa Ilican territory, and our con- cession demands that the canal shall begin and end in ±>ficaraguan ter- ritory. The line dividing the two territories is a short distance to the east of the entrance ot the harbor. It was natural to suppose that we would go where the work would be done the easiest and cheapest, and investigation will show that it would have cost 6)1,000,000 more to build it where the Commission suggests than where it is built. Mr. Patterson. What is the estimated cost of improving Greytown Harbor? Mr. Miller. We will furnish that to you. It is in the engineer's esti- mates. The line starting from Greytown Harbor for 10 miles to the foot- hills runs across low ground or lagoons. The Commissi(m recommends a change of the line a little farther to the south or east. No good reason is given for it. The comY)any spent months and months survey- ing that i)ortion of the line in order to get tiie best location. We have run over 4,000 miles of line by the theodolite. We think we know quite as well as the Commission the scope of that country. If we change the line south, the river would have to be changed. The line has been kept in the present direction so as to avoid the river. This Commission suggests a change, but makes no provision for changing NICARAGUA CANAL. 13 the river. Mr. Menocal's argument will show conclusively the condi- tion in that respect. We next come to the question of locks. They admit that the locks are all right. They say that the lift can be made without doubt. They suggest, however, four locks instead of three. The object of this is not stated. Of course it would increase the cost and the length of time it would take for a ship to go through the canal. There can be no good reason for it. Instead of diminishing the lifts, it is quite possible that those lifts might be done in two instead of three. With hydraulic machinery in France they lift more than 50 feet in a single lift. In short, there is not a single recommendation of the Commission which is not in the direction of increased cost. It would also increase the time which would be taken to build the canal. It Avould seem that they supposed they were rej)resenting a Government work in which the amount of monej' was unlimited, and the question of cost had nothing- to do with it. This company started out to build an available canal which would accommodate the commerce, and do it at the least possible cost. That has been the plan upon which railroads and canals have been built. The Suez Canal, the great prototype of all canals, was built first to a depth of 26 feet, and was so narrow that vessels could not pass, and every 4 or 5 miles turnouts were made, so that vessels could pass; but now they, having made a great success of the canal, are deepening it to 30 feet and increasing it to the width of the proposed Nicaraguan Canal. Our canal was laid out with a width of 125 feet on the bottom. The Commission i^ropose to reduce it to a width of 80 feet for the first 10 miles from Greytown and make turn-outs, which would cost as much as the plan of the company would, and it would be impossible for vessels to pass. The only possible reason Ave can think of for their making these reconmiendations is that they did not want to approve anything that the engineer of the company had done. They changed the canal from 125 feet at the bottom for the first 10 miles, and farther up they propose different widths wp to 300 feet, simply, I sux)pose, because the engineers of the company had decided upon the other widths. We then come to the divide. With that they find no fault, exceiJt to say that we have not made borings. They claim we ought to have made more borings, so as to be sure of it. Mr. Patterson. Did you find the same material in your borings? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. There is no tendency of the rock to slide or disintegrate. The indications of centuries show the character of the rock to be absolutely fixed. Mr. Patterson. It is of uniform formation? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. We have been able to show exactly what the rock is. Between this and the divide at Ochoa comes in the dam where embankments have to be built. They find the embankments can be built. The only serious thing which the Commissioners say about it is, that in case of war somebody might destroy it with dynamite. I sup- pose that is true. I suppose, too, that somebody might blow up this Capitol. Mr. Patterson. You have two locks between Greytown and the Ochoa dam ? Mr. Miller. We have three locks on each side, making the rise 110 feet. There are six locks in all; but the Commissioners recommend eight in all. We now come to Ochoa dam. This is the key of the whole plan. Ochoa dam is some 50 to 60 miles down the river and 20 to 40 miles from Greytown, direct across, as the canal goes. 14 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Patterson About wbat is tlie size of the San Juan Eiver and its tiow? Mr. :\riLLER. San Juan Eiver is a large navigable stream; is from 40 to 100 feet deep; it is 500 to 1,500 feet wide. ]Mr. Patterson. It Las about as much flow of water as the Ohio above Cincinnati? Mr. MiLLiCK. I am not familiar with that; but the proposition is to build a dam 05 feet in height. That raises the water of the San Juan Eiver to the level of the hike. Much of the low land will be Hooded back to the foothills, so that a large part of this will be an addition to the lake. That makes a greater reservoir for holding the Hoods of the country. At the point where the dam is to be located there is no rock bottom to be found within any reasonable distance to which the masonry could go down. As a result of that, it became necessary to find some other way to build the dam and rest it upon clay bottom, so as to make it permanent and safe. This plan of the company, after being argued for a long time by the Commission, is finally held to be practicable by some changes being made in its construction. That dam is simply a rock-tilled dam. The rock is to be taken out of a cut and by railroad to be carried to the Ochoa dam and damped into the river. It is built upon the same plan as piers or bulkheads,, of loose stone weighing from 5 to 10 tons. It will spread out, being 500 feet on the bottom and brought up to a crown on the top, and its weight will be many times greater than the weight of the water which will come against it; conse- quently it will not be moved by the water. It will be made tight by depositing gravel and clay on the upside. There are a large number ot great dams in India which are four to six times as long as that, but not as high. They are built in the same manner, with loose stone and filled in with clay material, which makes them tight. This matter of the dam is gone through in several pages of the report- and finally the Commissioners say that modern engineering can do any, thing necessary, but that the abutment ought to be made stronger; and they suggest that the top construction be carried on after the water is turned out through the San Carlos Eiver. This river is in Costa Eican territory, and on" the eastern side of the river there are low ridges of rock which can be used as wasteweirs for the canal. They suggest that wasteweirs be make sufficient so that the river can flow over them, and that this dam be constructed dry. I have all my life, as a manufac- turer, been building dams and hydraulic works, and therefore have some practical knowledge of works of this kind. This committee can see instantly the folly of such construction. Suppose you turn the water out through San Carlos Eiver and build the dam dry, as proposed, and then turn the Avater back on the completed dam. There will be a great deal of settling of the stones, undoubtedly the dam would settle many feet, and it might be greatly injured; but if built when the water is on it, no settling is possible after com])letion. Mr. Baktlett. What is the cost of this four miles of construction? Mr. Miller. We say that it will cost less than half what their esti- mate is. Mr. Bartlett. Suppose the dam gives away, would it destroy the canal? Mr. Miller. Ko, sir. The water would go down the original chan- nel of the San Juan and the canal would be left dry and uninjured. Mr. Bartlett. The Eaihoad News had an article in which this seemed to be regarded as an objection, and it intimated that the dam would be taken away. NICARAGUA CANAL. 15 Mr. Miller. There is not a particle of danger in that case. Out of great precaution, if you want to make it absolutely certain that noth- ing can ever harm the dam, you have simply to build it 8 or 10 feet higher than proposed, so that the water can not pass over it — taking the water over the waste weirs, to be made along the San Carlos River. Mr. Bartlett. Some years ago there was published in the American Law Review an article on the legal aspects in regard to the proposition contained in the original bill. It was intimated that after the bonds were paid oft" the Government would be no longer interested, because she would be entitled to none of the stock, and the stock would fall back into the hands from whence it came. Mr. Miller. That remark was made iu reference to tlie first bill. According to the bill which passed the Senate, the Government was to take the company and have ten directors out of the fifteen, and was to guarantee the bonds and take from $70,000,000 to $80,000,000 worth of the stock. The Government would have three-fourths of the stock of the company; consequently own and control the canal. Mr. Patterson. The first proposition contemi^lated the Government indorsing the bonds, and placing the stock in the hands of the Govern- ment as collateral security; now the plan is for the Government to become absolute owner of the canal. Mr. Sherman. If the canal prove a success it would be the best investment the Government ever made. T]^ereuj)on the committee took a recess until 2 p. m. AFTERNOON SESSION. STATEMENT OF HON. WARNER MILLER— Continued. The Chairman (to Mr. Miller). If it pleases you to go on, anticipat- ing the arrival of the balance of the committee, it will suit those of us who are here, but it is just as you i^lease. Mr. Miller. I will be glad to do whatever you desire. Mr. Patterson. I will say I will have to leave here by half past 3 at any rate, and I would like for the Senator to proceed. Mr. Miller. I do not recollect my last statement to the committee, and, as the stenographer of the morning is not here, I am not able, perhaps, to commence exactly at the i^oint I left off; still, I had sub- stantially finished the discussion of the Ochoa dam. I will simply say in regard to that one thing more. Of course the Ochoa dam has to be built upon a sand bottom. The question as to whether that is sufdcient or not is not a question of theory but settled by any quantity of great public works all over the world. The president of the Illinois Central Railroad told me yesterday nearly all of the great bridges upon the line of his road and many of those across the Mississippi River rested entirely upon a sand bottom where the superstructure was very heavy and the piers built of cut stone and weighing many hundreds and thousands of tons. The shij) canal of Amsterdam in Holland — all of its superstructure rests upon sand. When I was visiting there they were then constructing a new lock much larger than the old lock, a lock about the size proposed in this canal, and I saw its foundation, which rests entirely upon sand. It is unnecessary to repeat illustrations regarding the fact that any superstructure of any weight to-day can be built resting entirely upon sand. Mr. Patterson. Before you proceed to take up another question, please let me know how far it is from Greytown to the foothills by way of the canal, if you carry it in your memory. 16 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Miller. Begmning at tlie foothills— that is to say, where they put in the locks— to here "[illustrating on niapj is some 15 miles. The whole distance up to Ochoa, as we reckon it, is about ol miles, oi a trifle over. Mr. Patterson. From Grey town? Mr. Miller. Yes. The next point of criticism of the Commission is confined to the river from Ochoa to the lake, a distance of, I think, 56 miles, if I now recollect correctly. Much of that way the river is deep enough and wide enough for the largest vessels. There are three rapids, however, which are now navigable and over which small vessels pass. These rapids will have to be takeu out. The dam at Ochoa, as I said, elevates the water of the San Juan Eiver from this point to the lake, and brings it to the same level as the lake, so that it has free navigation from Ochoa to the lake and across the lake, and so on to the Pacific. In the parts of the river where we have to make excavations through rock or soil, the com[)any had estimated for the bottom of the canal a width of 125 feet. That is the width of the Manchester Shii> Canal and a little more than that of the Kiel Canal, and very much wider than the Suez Canal as finished. The Commission recommend that it be increased to 250 feet, or doubled; for what reason I do not know. As I told you at the beginning, they had recommended that the first 10 miles through the lagoon be reduced from 125 feet to 100 feet, but when they come to the river they recommend an increase of from 125 feet to 250 feet. When we come to the lake here, there is a deposit of mud extending out for 14 miles, more or less, on which a large amount of dredging will have to be done. There the company has made the bot- tom of the canal 150 feet wide, and there the commission recommend that it be made 300 feet. The only object of that can be, of course, to increase the cost of the work. The width of 125 feet is sufficient for any vessel to navigate and it is sufficient for vessels to pass, and 150 feet in the lake is ample there. We might say it would be better to have it 500 or 1,000 feet wide or any width, but the company proposes to build a commercial canal to meet the wants of commerce and to build it at the least possible expense, and we simply submit that a width which is greater than that of the Suez Canal and equal to that of the Manchester Canal or any ship canal in the worki, ought to be wide enough for this, and it is simply a wanton waste of money and largely increasing the cost of this canal to add to its width. There is no difficulty whatever in marking this channel perfectly so that vessels can not by any possibility get out of it. If any of you have been down at Morgan City, on the Gulf of Mexico, you have seen a channel several miles long running through a great waste of mud and shoal water in which the channel is very narrow^, and not as wide as this, w^here it is thoroughly marked, say every 100 feet, by poles set up, making a guide for ships passing out and in. Mr. JJooLiTTLE. May I ask it any storms of any consequence visit this portion of the lake which would make a wider canal necessary, and if there are any heavy winds which would make the steering difficult? Mr. Miller. The reports of captains and men who have been on the lake since 1810 say that there will be no difficulty in the navigation of a channel of 150 feet wide, if it is thoroughly marked. The cost of a work of this kind depends upon two things chiefly: First, the quantity of materials pf ^11 kinds that have to be moved j and, secondly, the cost NICARAGUA CANAL. 17 of labor, wliicli makes tlie unit of price. This Coniinission, in arrivmg at an estimate of cost of $133,000,000 for this work, have first, as I have shown you, largely increased the quantity of material to be removed by increasing' the width from 125 feet on the river to 250 feet, and on the lake from 150 feet to 300 feet. They have then increased the quantities in other directions, but they arrived at the cost of the unit of removing this material by taking data which are inadmissible, and most of which are incorrect. Their price was the price prevailing years ago, when the cost of doing this kind of work was very much greater than now. In fact, the estimate of the company was made niion a basis of cost which does not prevail anywhere in the world to-day; that ijs to say, tlie pres- ent cost is greatly reduced. For instance, we have estimated, begin- ning at Greytown, the cost of dredging at 20 cents a yard for deepen- ing the harbor and dredging tlie first 10 miles, and that was a fair estimate when it was made, with the machinery then in existence, by which that kind of work was done. The machinery which we bought from the Panama people and brought there was of a superior kind at that time, and the result was that the dredgiugwhichwedid atGreytown — and we kept a perfect and accurate account of it, and I have here a transcript from our books showing that at the beginning of the canal we took out some 700,000 cubic yards at a cost of only 11 cents per cubic yard. Of course we did it under adverse circumstances. We worked the ])Iant only 10 hours a day instead of 24 hours a day, as the company would do if it had had abundance of funds, but we did it at 11 cents per cubic yard, as our books show, while our estimate was 20 cents yer cubic yard. This Commission increases it from 20 to 25 and 30 cents per cubic yard. IsTow, what are the facts to-day ? All the macliinery down there now can be discarded, and to a great profit, because machinery to-day for dredging is much more effective than that was. For instance, to-day dredging is being done at Mobile under contract at 7 cents a yard, and the material is taken 6 miles to sea. It is being done under a contract at 7 cents a yard, and the contractors tell me they are entirely satisfied witli tlieir profit. We had ofl'eisfrom dredging companies several years ago ofi'eriug to do all the dredging of tliis canal at our estimated i^rice, but this Commis- sion, without informing itself as- to what the cost of this kind of work throughout the world is to day, simply increases our estimate from 10 to 25 per cent. Our rock excavation in this great divide here, which is nearly 3 miles long, and which, I think, calls for some 8,000,0iK) cubic yards or more rock to be taken out, we estimate at $1.50 a cubic yard, and then we allow for transportation to Greytown to put in the breakwater and also to be put in the Oclioa dam 50 cents per yard. They are not satisfied with that, but they largely increase that nnit of price. Now, what are the facts to-day? If this committee wants to know what rock of that kind can be excavated for, let me ask you to send for some of the lead- ing contractors who are now doing work upon the drainage canal at Chicago. I visited that last year in connection with the contractors and chief engineers, and there I found that great work being done under contract, and the highest price was 76 cents a yard, and tlie con- tractors told me they were entirely satisfied with the profits they were making. I believe it is entirely possible to-day to let a contract for all this rock excavation for less than $1 per cubic yard. I have here a N c 2 18 NICARAGUA CANAL. letter from Thomas A. Edison, giving what it cost to move rock to-day ■with the improved machinery and system which is adopted: Orange, N. J., December IS, 1895. Mr. Horace L. Hotchkiss, 35 Broad Street, New York. My Dear Sir: Replying to yours of the 17tli, I beg to say that at our works at Edison, N. J., wc mine low-grade iron ore (magnetic oxide and feldspar). All onr work is in an open cut, and over the cut we have a traveling crane 200 feet span, with whicii we load the ore into the iron skips or boxes (each holds about .5 tons) and also place the loaded skips on the railroad can, which deliver the ore to our crushing plant, an average distance of about 2,000 feet. We use steam drills and blow out several thousand tons at each blast, and try to get the pieces out as large as possible, not exceeding 5 tons, as with onr appliances a man can load a 5-toii piece as quickly as one 500 pounds. Our cost ]ier ton (2,240 pounds) for drilling, blasting, loading the ore into the skips (by hand, as at the time this cost was made our loading ajipiiauces were not ready, so we were compelled to load by hand labor), l)utting the skii)S on the can, and delivering the can at the crushing pbmt, on 1,154 tons per day of ten hours, including all material, labor, coal, repairs, etc., was l'J.71 cents [>er ton. With the appliances we are putting on the crane for loading the ore into the skips and with our plant full capacity (5,000 tons per twenty hours), we fully expect to deliver the ore at crushing plant for from 12 to 14 cents per ton, and probably less. Yours, very truly, Thomas A. Edison, President. P. S. — Granite as per sample in office weighs 4,540 pounds to cubic yard ^2 tons 60 i^onnds per yard. Mr. Miller. Now that converted into yards, in round figures two tons would equal one yard. That would make the cost of taking out the rock upon this plan in the one case where it says 19.71 cents per ton or 40 cents per yard. He says, "We fully expect to deliver the ore at crushing plant for from 12 to 14 cents per ton and probably less," or from 24 to"28 cents per cubic yard. Now those are actual facts, but this Commission disregarding all that puts the cost up to $1.75 per cubic yard and then adds 50 cents for quarrying it in blocks of from 5 to 10 tons, which would be large enough to put in the Ochoa dam. Taking these figures of Mr. Edison, the estimates of the Commission are from three to five times the actual cost to-day of doing this work. Now as to the cost of labor down there. The Commission say of course in that climate and under those conditions the cost of labor will be much greater than in the States. Let us see. We have si)ent $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 there chiefly upon labor and we know some- thing about it. We had at one time 2,000 men, Jamaica negroes, and the cost I have here exactly. We paid colored laborers 20 soles per month and subsistence, and occasionally we paid 25 soles and subsis- tence. The sole is the money of Nicaragua, a silver i)iece equal to about an American silver dollar. Mr. Patterson. You mean 20 soles per month ? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; it would be $20 in silver or $10 in gold at the present time. The actual cost of subsistence was 11.50 soles; that, added to the other, makes 31.50 soles and 3G.50 soles per month, or in the one case $15.25 in gold per month and in the other case $18.25 in gold per month. At that time the rate of exchange and value of silver made the sole worth about 72 cents. Now it is worth 50 or less. In other words, you can get anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 laborers of the West Indian islands, ayIio are perfectly acclimated, for less than one-half you pay labor in this conntry. Now, assuming that the labor there is only one-half as efiective as it isliere — and we are prepared to show that it is m(n-e than that; that it is nearer two-thirds as eftective there as it is here — it brings the cost of labor iu Nicaragua for all this kind of work, NICARAGUA CANAL. 19 common labor, to substantially tlie same basis as it is in the United States. All these statements I make here are verified from the experience of this company and from their books and accounts, so that there should be no addition to the cost of that kind of labor because of the climate, and the record which I gave you this morning in regard to working 1,000 Jamaica negroes for six months and only four dying, and they were worked in the wet season, shows it is not in the common accept- ance of the term an unhealthy climate in which to do work for that kind of laborers, who are of course acclimated and are accustomed to it. The skilled laborers, the engineers, mechanics, etc., of course, are from the United States, and we paid them no more than they received here; but if the work was going on with a large number, with 10,000 or 20,000 men there at once, the demand for skilled labor would probably lead to a demand for a larger compensation than received in the United States, but the bulk of the labor and bulk of the cost is, of course, the common labor. The company have estimated the cost of excavating rock under water at '$5 per cubic yard. There is a large amount of rock in the river at the three rai)ids of which I have spoken, to be excavated. It has all been estimated at $5 per cubic yard. We submit that that is an extrav- agant estimate. The Government at the Saulte and the channel below it is, doing this work at a cost of not more than one-half of that, or substantially $2.50 a yard, and the same nmchinery and appliances can be used at Nicaragua as there used and the work be continued the whole year, whereas at the Saulte they have to suspend entirelj^ during the Avinter season, therefore costing more than it would otherwise. Mr. Patterson. Would not that depend somewhat upon the char- acter of the rock? Mr. Miller. Yes; quite likely it would. Mr. Patterson. What about the rock in the bottom of the San J nan Eiver? Mr. Miller. It is like all the rock of the country, which is largely of igneous or volcanic form, and while it is hard it drills readily, of course, with a diamond drill, and in blasting it comes out in pieces large enough to be handled successfully; and we believe it is a no more expensive rock to quarry than the rock found at the Saulte, or not much more expensive than the rock found on the drainage canal at Chicago. But even it it is, the prices we have estimated under present conditions are extremely large, because, as I say, we have made a basis upon a system of doing it which is much more expensive than it is at the present time. Now, a dredging x)lant to-day — a suction dredge doing this work at Mobile and some of the ports of Mexico — has demonstrated that the l)rincipai part of the dredging can be done at an actual cost of not exceeding 5 cents a cubic yard, whereas our lowest estimate is 20 cents. The Government has just had constructed for u.se of the jMississippi Kiver Commission a great dredge, which, I am told by the builder, is enabled to handle 6,000 cubic yards an hour, which is twice as much earth as the entire United States Army can handle if it was furnished with wheelbarrows and shovels. It is all done by one machine. Our estimates were made when it was assumed in the harbor it would be necessary to put the material into scows and tow them out to sea 4 or 5 miles to be dumped. Nothing of the kind now is done. The material is pumped through a pipe and discharged directly from the dredge at a distance of a half, three-quarters, or a mile and dumped off in the swamps along the canal, and not a particle put in a scow 20 NICARAGUA CANAL. and towed out to sea. The builders of a modern dredge would like Dotliiug- better tLau to have a coutract to do this work at our estimate instead of increasing it. In the building of the locks of course a large amount of concrete has to be used. The bulk of the locks is to be made of concrete; that is, a mixture of Portland cement, sand, and broken stone. We have esti- mated all of that at $0 a cubic yard in place. The Commission lind that that is not sufficient, and they raise the price of that to §9.50 a yard because they say some of the work on the Hennepin Canal cost that much to do there. ]S^ow let us see. The work done in Alabama by the Government, now substantially completed, on the Coosa dam cost $4:M a cubic yard for concrete in place, and the cost of the Portland cement was about $2.50 a barrel delivered. Portland cement can be laid down at Greytown from England or Belgium in shiploads at $1.50 to $1.75 per barrel. Tliere is no duty, of course, in Nicaragua upon anything that the canal company chooses to take in for use upon the canal. We have as fine sand as can be found anywhere in the world for masonry, and of course the rock is free, as it is taken out of the cut. We can get offers from responsible parties giving- bond to do all the concrete work at $0 per cubic yard. There is no doubt it can be done actually at from $4 to $1.50, but the contractors must necessarily nuike a profit, and when they go into a country like Nicaragua they expect to make large profits; but'thereis no trouble at all about famishing con- tractors who will do the work at our price named, which is $0 per yard. We submit that this estimate of the Commission is simply out of all character and uncalled for, and no reason can be given except a desire to increase the cost of the whole canal. We find this increased cost based upon two things, an increase of the quantities by increasing the prism of the canal, and, secondly, by depreciating the value of the labor, which is unfounded. Now, modern methods of dredging and excavating have been so much improved since our estimates were nuxde that we might safely, if we saw fit, reduce our estimate upon those things at least 25 per cent, and in many crises 50 per cent. Upon that ])oint of the case Mr. Treat, of whom I spoke this morning, who went down to build the railroad for the company and is an able man and very reliable, and who spent nearly a year in Nicaragua, wrote me a letter some time ago stating that he would take the entire contract for the canal and do all the work at the price named by our chief engineer in his estimate, we of course guaranteeing the quantities to l)e not greater than those stated in our estinuites. Further than that, he offered to build the entire canal for $90,000,000 and take no guaranty as to the actual quantities. If the quantities exceeded our estimates he was to do the work complete, giving us the canal 28 feet in depth, 125 feet at the bottom at the beginning, 125 feet in the river and 150 feet in the lake. I only mention this to show you it is possible to bring before this conmiittee a number of skilled and able contractors in this country who will verify every statement I have made as to the cost of doing this kind of work at the present time. The builder of this new dredge, of which he is justly very proud and which has demonstrated its ability to handle 0,000 cubic yards an hour, is here in the city, and in talking with him in regard to it last night he confirmed all I have said to you in regard to this matter, and we hold there is no necessity or occasion for making an increased size of this canal at the present time. Twenty-eight feet of" depth is deeper than any other ship caual in the world, and if in NICARAGUA CANAL. 21 future generations it should be necessary to increase the depth to 30 feet it can be donejust as well after the canal is finished as it can be done now, or even cheaper, because then dredges could move easily through the whole length of the canal, and with this modern machinery dredge out the 30 feet required; but no one supposes the great ocean greyhounds which ply between Portsmouth, Liverpool, and New York are going to be in the trade of the Pacific. You hnd most of the vessels engaged now are 22 to 25 feet draft, very few that are inore than 22 or 23 feet. Mr. Patterson. And none more than 28 feet? Mr. Miller. None more than 25; and I do not know any of that kind. Mr. Bennett. When you say a depth of 28 feet, do you mean it will take a vessel, say,,of 27 feet! Mr. Miller. Well, I suppose with 28 feet you would scarcely want to take a vessel of more than lu'obabh' 20 feet draft, because as a vessel moves it draws down a little and it might touch bottom, but, mind you, a greater portion of this entire canal, so far as vessels are concerned, is without bottom. The river, except at points I have mentioned, is anywhere from 40 to 100 feet deep, and after you get out in the lake over the mud I have described then the lake is from 50 to 150 feet in depth, so that the mininuim of 28 feet is only for a small part of the way. The bulk of it is of course entirely free, but the cost of getting a dei>th of 30 feet instead of 28 would be very slight after it was com- pleted. Mind you, the meter sills of all locks are required to be 30 feet so there will be 30 feet in all locks, so you have simply to take up the bottom of the river and sand in the liarbor to give you 30 feet the whole length if you want to, and why we should go on and add $10,000,000 to the cost of this or any other considerable sum to make 30 feet to start with, whereas the Suez started with a depth of 20 and the Manchester at 26 feet, I do not see tlie force of it. On the west side from here down [illustrating on map] there is no necessity of taking up your time in regard to that. I will say here tliat the company i)resented two plans; one was to carry the water through here without a dam and the other with a dam. Here is a natural depression in the earth, called the Tola Basin, covering some 4,000 or 5,000 acres, which is 4 or 5 miles long, and where it opens out here it is narrow. One plan involved building a dam across that gap, thus making a large basin and saving excavations. The other was to carry the canal down throngh the basin in excavations, just as through any land, and not building any dam. Of course that dam can be safely put there, and it would not be as expensive as the excavation, and would give a large basin, in which vessels could lie at anchor there, or wliero they could pass each other without any trouble at all; but the Commis- sion recommend, I believe, that a dam be not built, but that the canal be built by excavation. That is a mere difference of detail, and it is a matter which is nor worth while to stop to discuss one way or another. What they did, however, without giving it any consideration at all, is, they undertook to change the line of the canal here 4 or 5 miles from the right bank to the left bank of the Rio Grande, which would largely increase its cost, because it would necessitate a diverting of the liio Grande and build- ing a channel for it, which would be almost as expensive as the canal itself; and there is no possible good reason which can be given for it. It is clear country here, and no Hue has ever been so thorougldy invest) gated and surveyed as that is. Mind you, these surveys of ours follow largely in the line of the one made by Mr. Childs for Commodore Van- 22 NICARAGUA CANAL. derbilt, and two surveys made by tlie United States Government itself, and one partial survey made by the Kiearaguan Government, and they all came to the same conclusion. I undertake to say that no work of this magnitude or anything like it has ever been so thoroughly prepared for the beginning of work as this has in advance. We have surveys as accurate as surveys of that kind can be made, and any necessity for delay for further investigation does not exist. Now, the Commission undertakes to say Mr. Patterson. Eight in that connection. Now, there has been repeated surveys; is there a consensus of opinion, or rather is there a concurrence of opinion, among these surveyors in regard to the line? Mr. Miller. Substantially so. The original and old surveys under- took to follow the river there and make several dams, and to follow tlie river dowu through here [illustrating], but that was soon abandoned because of the amount of silt and deposits which came down, and it would have filled up and made the passage impossible to navigate. Mr. Patterson. So the researches Mr. Miller. Have all come to the same end, and there is nothing suggested by this Commission except minor details. As I stated to you this morning, they argue against theOchoa dam, and end up by saying it is possible and it can be built. I\Ir. Patterson. Did the Commission survey the route at all? Mr. Miller. The Commission spent from twelve to fourteen days on or near the line of the canal. They never made any surveys of any kind. They never even stopped at the sight of the Ochoa dam. and of course the Commission could not have made a survey. They could not make any survey that would be of the slightest use without two or three years' time with a corps of engineers. Mr. Patterson. Tell me, now, could not any competent engineer here at Washington, with the data which was before that Commission, have as good an opportunity to arrive at a correct conclusion as they did? Mr. Miller. Certainly he could. There is no man who can go there avd gain any knowledge except he gets a general idea of the country and material and he has an impression which goes with him and undoubtedly helps him to a certain extent, and no engineer would con- sider it necessary to go there except to verify; but assuming our sur- veys, so far as they go, are correct, any engineer anywhere in the world can take the plans and go over them and see whether they are feasible ; of course, starting upon the premises as to what we have given him is true. Mr. Patterson. They state the practicability of constructing acanal, but if I understand you they insist upon an increased cost growing out of the width of the canal and depth of the canal, and paying a much larger ])rice for work and for wages than has been estimated by the company? Mr. Miller. That is what it amounts to. That is what their report says. I do not think they are fair enough to state their increased cost comes in that way, but that is an absolute and necessary inference, because it gives the increased quantities and then it takes an increased unit of price for doing the work, and of course the increased cost comes from those two elements. Mr. Patterson. Have you made an estimate of the increased cost growing out of these various facts you have stated here in respect to the diverting of the canal and the dredging and wages, and the cost of removing material, and all that? Mr. Miller. I have not myself, but Mr. Menocal told me he had gone NICARAGUA CANAL. 23 over it. and the increased cost by increasing the quantities woukl be something lilie iB10,0U0,0()0, and the increased cost of labor on their basis in addition. Now, while on that point of cost, I want to call the attention of the committee to some rei)orts here, a report made in the Senate in the last Congress by Senator Morgan, which gives lirst the report of our engineer of his estimate of the cost of this work in detail, the figures of which are stated, 20 cents per cubic yard for dredging, $1.50 for removal of rock above water, $5 for removal of rock under water, and $G for concrete, etc. That estimate was made and reported to the com- pany at the beginning, before I became connected with it. In my talk this morning, I stated" the time that I became connected "with this enterprise, but it is gone into here in great detail, and that estimate of Mr. Menocal amounted to $05,000,000. ISTow, the company, before pro- ceeding further, took all this data, all these surveys, and all work that had been done by our engineers over three years' time, and submitted them to a board of leading engineers which was gathered in New York, at the head of which was Mr. John Bogart, a very distinguished engi- neer, who was for several years the engineer of the State of New York. In New York we have an ofiQcer known as the State engineer and sur- veyor, who is elected by the people, the same as other ofGcers. He is in charge of the whole canal system — Erie, Champlain, etc., and all those< great works — and I know of no man more competent. With him were associated four other engineers, Mr. Myers, one of the leading- railroad engineers of the South, who resides, I believe, in liichmond; Mr. Wellington, who was the editor of the Engineering News, a very distinguished engineer; Mr. Harvey, who was the engineer connected with the building of the first lock of the Sault Ste. Marie, and Mr. Hitchcock, an able engineer. These gentlemen took all of this data and sjient a long time upon it and made a report to the company, and that is printed here, and I want to read just a few clauses from it to give you some idea. They begin by saying: We have carefully examined the unusually full maps, profiles, borings, samples of material, etc., which have been prepared and collected under tlie directions of your chief engineer, and the completeness and excellent form of which reflect credit upon your engineering staff. I will not undertake to read the whole of it, although it is important. They go on further to say : The project as a whole appears to have comparatively few elements of doubt about it, as comparing it with other works of at all similar magnitude, and we consider it to be uuqiiestionably feasible. Thegreatareaof Lake Nicaragua offers i in munity from serious tioodsbyregiilatiugflow. Much of the earth excavation and dredging, the rock drilling, and the concrete mixing can be done by mechanical means, to that extent reducing the needs for manual labor. The dams and embankments are proposed to be made largely from the immense mass of otherwise useless rock spoil. Under the climatic conditions, as we understand them, an adequate supply of labor should be obtainable. The project in detail consists of the following elements: Then they proceed to describe the line of the canal, which of course I will not read. As this document is accessible to the committee, I will not go further into it. They find the figures of our engineers to be substantially correct as to its estimates, but in addition to that they add 20 per cent to contingencies of construction as a factor for safety, and they carry the grand total of the estimate up to $87,799,570, and those are the figures which the company has acted upon instead of upon the preliminary report of Mr. Menocal. Mr. Patterson. What was the estimate of the English engineer, to "whom you referred"^ 24 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. MiLLEE. The estimate of the English engineer was within a million dollars of Mr. INIenocal's estimate. Now, one thing more in regard to the findings of the Commission or its criticisms. They claim we have not snftieient knowledge of the hydraulic conditions — that is to say, of the rainfall and of tiie tioods and of the lake and of the river — and they say that more data should be obtained, and they recommend making careful observations for eighteen months. Now, the companj^ have made careful observations for a nnich longer time than that, and these data are perfectly at their command, and have been published by the comi)any. But let us see. The history of Nicaragua for a long time is well known in this country — certainly since 1849, when the California gold fever broke out and people began to go over it. We know from that time to the present there has never been any disastrous flood there, and from the nature of things it is almost impossible to have one there. In the first place, the rainfall upon the eastern side is very great, anyhow — nearly 300 inches a year, and it is difficult to imagine any greater rainfall than that — and that rainfall lias done no injury to the works of the company, nor has it done any serious injury at any time to the river. The fact is, Lake Nica- ragua is a great reservoir, which takes in the watersheds of the country and acts as a regulator. Dui-ing the wet period the lake gradually rises, usually not more than feet in the several months of rain. Then it gradually recedes again during the dry months, and the floods of the San Juan Eiver are not sudden floods, such as we have here in this country. A few weeks ago we had floods in the great rivers of Maine, the Andro- scoggin and Penobscot, which did damage of millions of dollars, which all happened in a day by the melting of snows; but no such thing hap- pens in Nicaragua. Any examination of the San Juan lliver maSan Juan Kiver or any rivers there since we had any knowledge of the country or any his- tory of it. I took down with me, Avhen I went to Nicaragua, ^lajor Dunton, who is one of the greatest seismic scientists in the world, and who, under the direction of the Government, spent four or five years in the Hawaiian Islands and elsewhere studying earthquakes and volca- noes, and he has made a very full report as to what he found, and it has been printed by the War department. The whole question is there answered satisfactorily. The damage done there by earthquakes has been nothing like that done in Charleston a few years ago, and other places in this country, and as the works of the canal are below or even with the surface of the earth no fear is entertained ; but if it were feared that the locks might be injured by earthtiuake shocks, those locks could be built entirely of steel, as they are being built in New York and elsewhere, and it is not at all certain it could not be made cheaper to have the foundation of concrete and build the superstructure of steel, which could be prepared in this country and taken down there and set and in less time than it could be constructed of concrete. That is being con- sidered by the engineers, but when the company suspended operation the engineers who had charge of it of course suspended their labors; but before the locks were built undoubtedly this plan would be con- sidered, and then it would be submitted to a board of leading engineers to d4?cide whether the locks should be built of concrete or steel con- 26 NICARAGUA CANAL. struction work and filled in with concrete or stone, so there is no danj^er from that under any circumstances. Now, I do not know that I caro to say anytliiug further in reijard to tbe cost. There is one otber thing which passed from my mind Mr. Patterson. In regard to the harbor at Brito, there are some difficulties there, are there not? Mr. JMiLLER. At Brito the Commissioners of course recommend a change of that farther to the south. The report made by Mr. Menocal in regard to the winds will show that will be unwise. Brito was selected after several surveys had been made. In fact ColonelChild's survey ran in the same direction because the canal went down the north channel of the stream, which saved large excavations, and at Brito there was a small stream emptying into the Pacific, and there was a bar on which there was from i to feet of water, and on the north side of this is a promontory of at least 100 feet high of solid rock running out into the ocean, and naturally we took this promontory as one of the breakwaters and built another breakwater parallel to it, a very natnral place and a very easy place to build a harbor, and the breakwater is built out, and of course between this breakwater and this natural promontory a channel would be dredged, and the interior basin is of sufficient size to hold all the ships that would be necessary, and the answer to the report made by Engineer Menocal I think will satisfy every member of the committee there is no sufficient reason given for any change of that location, but if there were any good reason of course the board of consulting engineers would discover it and the change would be made. Mr. Patterson. Are the engineering difficulties there as great as they are at Greytown ! Mr. Miller. I should say not, from my own investigation of it, and I have been there. Of course, Greytown twenty-five or thirty years ago was a deep-water harbor. It is a natural harbor, but the bar closed and then gradually the harbor filled, so at last there is some 14 to 20 feet of water in some places and some places less. A portion of that harbor is going to be dredged out to a final depth of 30 feet. Mr. Patterson. You have to excavate near the Pacific coast; you have to cut a dividing ridge or two, do you not? Mr. Miller. As we go out from the lake here, we go across the low- est piece of land there is in Nicaragua. The extreme height of that land here [illustrating] above water is 45 feet, and the average height above water is 20 feet, so you have to make an excavation of 20 feet ou an average, and then 30 feet below to get the depth of water in the canal. This work has been most thoroughly and carefully surveyed, because that is occupied mainly with farms and not difficult to get at at all. I may say one more word in regard to the Commission increasing the size of the prism of the canal on the river from 125 to 250, and on the lake from 150 to 300 feet. They may have had in mind that as many ships were to pass through this canal every year as through Saulte Ste. Marie and therefore the canal has to be made so wide, but what are the facts? Last year there passed through theSaulte Canal vessels to the number of something like 17,000, being something over 70 a day, nearly 75 dur- ing the 230 days that it is open. Sui)pose the JSTicarauga Canal carried 6,000,000 tons per annum only. Ordinary vessels navigating the sea which would pass through it would only take 11 vessels a day passing through the canal to carry that amount of tonnage, and it goes without saying that the capacity of passing in this broad basin here and the NICARAGUA CANAL. 27 San Francisco Basin and in the main river and in the lake and Tola basin, that there is only a small portion of the canal in which vessels conld not pass freely, bnt large seagoing^ vessels pass to-day without any interrnption in the Manchester iShip Canal, the bottom of which is only 125 feet. So, is tliere any reason why they conld not pass just as well in the Nicaragua waters as in the English waters? I see none at all, and the small number of vessels which necessarily pass through any canal of this kind in a year makes it possible, if there should be any ditticulty in the bends of the river in passing freely, to hold ships by means of the telegraph, and one vessel would not be allowed to go into a narrow channel until another had gotten out of it. There would be no ditti- culty about that at all with the small number of vessels passing through the Suez Canal last year, in which 3,CU0 or 3,700 vessels passed. That is somewhere from 11 to V2 or 13 vessels a day. The necessities of a canal of this kind do not demand any such width, and there ought not to be any such waste of money, but this Commission seems to have gone on the idea tliat this canal should be begun on the most expensive scale, as regards width, depth, etc. Mr. Patterson. I understand after you get out of the basin at Grey- town and get to the footliills, from there to the Pacihc Ocean you have a salubrious climate — it is a rather healthful country — and there would be less likelihood of any i)eople engaged in labor dying and being sick than at Grey town? Mr. Miller. The conditions are these and the records show it. At Greytowu there is never a day in the year in which the trade winds do not blow, in which the winds blow from the ocean on to the land. The result is, while this low land would naturally create miasnm and fever and does to a certain extent, these constantly blowing winds make it substantially healthy. As I told you, there were for six months 1,G00 Jamaica negroes working upon this line of railroad, 11 miles long. Only four of them died there of any disease; others were killed by accident. The moment you approach the foothills and mountains the rain decreases. When you come to the lake, we have a record from Dr. Hall, who lives at Kivas, 5 miles from the line of the canal, who has resided there for thirty or forty years. I know him \Vell. He has kept a record of the rainfall of all that region, which shows an average fall of 65 inches annually. Of course, no tropical country is a sanitarium, but I went through that country in the month of March and part of April with a party of thirty gentlemen. Some of them were over GO years of age and others down to 20 years of age, none of whom were familiar with the tropics or had been in them. We tramped through this wil- derness and slept in open sheds at night and waded swamj^s and drank the water of the country. Not one of the thirty was sick at all during the entire journey or during the time we were there. We have had American engineers who have been three years con- tinuously in Nicaragua without ever being sick or going to the hospital. Other engineers have been sick for a short time, but the records of the hospital — and I believe the subcommittee have hatl Dr. Stubbert before them, who was chief surgeon and in charge of this business all the time the company was carrying on work, and here is a short sketch from the hospital if it will not detain the committee too long. Here is one year's work. Number of i^atieuts in the hospital December 31, 1890, 25; ad- mitted during the year 507, total number of patients 532; discharged cured 339, discharged improved 112; unimproved 8; died 10. In the hospital December 31. 1891, 63, and of the deaths, 4 were the results of 28 NICARAGUA CANAL. accidents suffered wliile at work, 1 from syphilis, and 5 were from cli- matic ailments. Tliis was less than 1 per cent, or accurately speaking 0.93 of 1 per cent. Total death rate for the year was 0.187 per cent includino; those who died by accident. I do not believe any great jmblic work in the United States can show any better record. Mr. Patterson. What about the Chagres fever which prevails at Panama f Mr. Miller. ISTo such fever has been known at JSTicaragua, and there is no record in modern times of a single case of yellow fever even at Grey town. During our work there came a steamer there from Colon bringing up a portion of this dredging plant which we bought. When it left Colon it had Chagres fever. Some four or tive of its crew were put in the hospital at Colon and the vessel came on to Greytown. When it arrived there it had six or eight men down with Chagres fever, and they were taken out and put into our hospital and treated, and none of our men took the disease; and every one of those men who went into the iiosi)ital was cured and came out, and every one who Avent into the hospital at Colon died. That is the only record we have of that matter. JNIr. Patterson. This is a very interesting discussion, and I make these suggestions so as to get the important facts into the record? Mr. Miller. I am very glad to have you make them. Mr. Patterson. My information is that at Panama, both on the Atlantic and Pacilic sides, there is a dead calm, and trade winds are unknown there, whereas at Greytown and Brito, on the Caribbean Sea and the Pacitic,the trade winds i)revail, and if this canal is constructed the sailors can sail through this canal without difdculty, whereas if the canal was constructed at Panama, even if it was possible to construct oiK! there, it would be only useful for steam going vessels, for the reason that there is a dead calm on both sides at tliat point? Mr. Miller. I am very sorry that I have not got a large nmp of Central America and the upper part of South America: if I had I would show yon that Panama lies in a great bend or bay. The facts are that the winds do not reach it, and trade winds do not prevail there, and that is undoubtedly the reason why the fever is there, as it is not blown away. This country through here [illustrating] is the lowest piece of land there is in Central America. The trade winds blow in there every day in the year and dissipate the fevers and pass through the highlands. When we come to the Pacific side, the wind blows in here, and right here at San Juan del Sur is the summer resort for people of Nicaragua who come there for health, and who live there during the hot season, showing it is the healthiest place there. Now, as to the possibility of sail vessels using this canal and not using the Panama, if it was built. Lieutenant Maury, who is a great authority upon the geography of the seas and winds connected with it, lias written upon this subject, and a gentleman who has been writing against the (tanal and who has given as one of the chief reasons why it should not be built because it could never be used by sailing vessels, has quoted Lieutenant Maury upon this question, and I want to show you how he has been quoted. This is a quotation made from Lieutenant Maury. He says: " Should nature by one of her convulsions rend the American continent in twain and make a channel across the Isthmus of Panama or Darien as deep, as wide, and as free as the straits of Dover, it would never become a commercial thoroughfare for sailing vessels, saving the outward bound or those which could reach it with leading winds." Now, Lieutenant Maury wrote that, but the gentleman (] noting this against the canal did not quote it all. Let us see what Lieutenant NICARAGUA CANAL. 29 Maury further says iu this same article. He says: " We come now to the Nicaragua route. It is to this part of the Isthmus that we must look for a route that shall best fulfill the requirements of commerce. A^essels under canvas would, in the main, do the fetching- and carrying for the Nicaragua route, which, for reasons already stated, they can not do for Panama. The aggregate amount of this trade is immense, and it is neither accommodated for Panama nor Panama for it." (Sullivan's rei)ort to the Navy Department, 1883, p. 148.) This is the main argument made against the canal. Now, in regard to this question, I would be very gkid to have the committee call some distinguished officers — for instance, Admiral Ammen, who is 80 years old, but is a man who knows more about the subject than all the rest of us and understands this question thoroughly, or Captain Taylor, who is at the head of the War and Navy College at Providence, P. I., who has written very much upon this (piestiou and who knows it thoroughly, or any of your naval officers who are familiar with this. I do not want to talk to you about the sailing qualities of this route, because I am not a sailor, and I take my views very much from the statements of Admiral Ammen and Captain Taylor and others ; but there is another point while I an) about it, and that is the Commission questions the surveys of the river and lake. Now, these surveys were not made by our company; they were made by the United States Government, under Commander Luce, and the lieutenant in charge of the survey was a lieutenant named J. W, Miller, now retired from the Navy and president of one of the leading steamship lines running from New York up the coast to Provi- dence and elsewhere. He ])ersonally made this survey during the years 1872-73, and spent a long time there. I woukl like to have this committee call Lieutenant Miller, to gain from him the fact whether these surveys were made carefully and whether they are reliable. They were made by a naval officer, under the direction of the United States Government, and they were not made in the interests of any comjiany, or any concession, or anything else, because there was none in existence. They were made carefully, as honestly, and as fairly as oflicers of the Navy could make them, and we claim they are sufficient for all preliminary work of beginning this canal and going on with it. The whole survey of this lake has not been made to obtain its depth everyAvhere, but we have obtained the depth along the sailing channel, and of course the Government event- ually, or some other authority, or the Nicaraguan Government, will undoubtedly make a complete survey of the lake and take soundings all over it, so you will have a chart to know where to anchor your ships; but I submit that that is not necessary at the beginning. I think it is sufficient to know the depth along the sailing line. Mr. Patterson. You know it will float all the navies of the world? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I know that, but the Commission wants this thing delayed eighteen months and wants $350,000 api)ropriated by the United States Government to send out a commission of engineers to make these surveys during the eighteen mouths. Well, $350,000 would put quite an army of engineers in Nicaragua and keep them for eighteen months, but we submit that when they get through they would not have anything we have not got that would be of the slightest value. Of course it would delay this great enterprise for that length of time. I have talked so much about this thing all over the United States that I never know when to stop. Now, I would like the committee to ask me any questions that have suggested themselves to them during my talk. Mr. Patterson. There is just one point which, in the beginning of 30 NICARAGUA CANAL. your discussion, you did not explain fully. My understanding is that when these concessions were granted by Nicaragua and Costa Kica the arrangement was tliat Nicaragua was to have $G,()Ol),0()0 of stock and be represented by one director, and Costa liica was to have $1,500,000 of stock and be represented by one director? Mr. MiLLEE. That is correct; that is the agreement. Mr. Patterson. Now, what is the extent of the right of way, what is the width of tlie ownership of the canal? Mr. Miller. Well, the concession carries with it a gift of something over a million acres of land. In the first i)lace we are permitted to take all the land tliat we want for the right of way, be it more or less, that is through the public lands, but upon the western side the Gov- ernment was to lurnish us with the riglit of way by our paying them 8r)0,000 in gold, which we paidthem, audthenthey weretoproceed to con- demn the right of way for us. I think it is not all condemned, but we paid the Nicaraguan Government $30,000 in cash and they have con- demned a i^ortion of it. The Government is to furnish the right of way, fi'ee otcourse, over the public lands, and we take all we want, and in addition to that we have a right to go upon the public lands and take timber and stone and help ourselves to anything we can find, and then after the canal is completed we are to have a million acres of land lying upon the line of the canal, in alternate sections, the Government hold- ing one and the company the next. Mr. Patterson. Then, if 1 understand you correctly, the Maritime Canal Company owns these concessions? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Mr. PATTERS07-f. And the present owners of the canal company, or rather the stockholders of this construction company, have expended something over $4,000,000 in acquiring these concessions and in the work that has already been accomplished on the canal? Mr. Miller. That is correct. Mr. Patterson. And the canal company now controls practically the entire stock, amounting to $92,500,000, and it owes to its stock- holders the amount expended on the work? ,Mr. Miller. It owes this amount of money to its stockholders. It has not any debts outside at all. Mr. Patterson. I mean, if it were to ])b.j the stockholders this amount of money, and they were willing to give it up, it would then have stock amounting to $02,500,000. Mr. ]\riLLER. Yes; that is substantially correct as it is. Mr. Sherman. Was there some provision in these concessions which made them nonassignable? Mr. Miller. They can not be assigned to any Government, but there is nothing in the concessions forbidding their being assigned from one company to another comi)any, or there is nothing in the concession to prevent any Government holding stock in them. We are bound to hold the lists open and let anvbody subscribe, but the Government of Nicaragua should have $0,000,000 and Costa Kica $1,500,000 of stock, and then the United States or any other Government could come and buy stock. There is no limit or control upon that whatever, but we could not sell this out to any Government. Therefi)re, the necessity of the Government building this canal through the medium of a company with its own charter. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I w^ould ask you to have something to s;iy about the probable commerce passing through this canal. There have been some recent publications relative to that ? NICARAGUA CANAL. 31 Mr. Miller. Yes ; there have been some publications rehitive to that, trying to show it wonkl not do any business; yet at the same time there have been pul>lications emanating from the transcontinental railroads opposing the canal upon the supposed ground that it would take the business away from the railroads. Just how the two things come together 1 do uot understand, although these arguments are made by the same party. Now, as to the probable commerce of this, at this late hour I will not undertake to go into that in a very fall and elaborate manner, but I want to call the attention of the committee to this report made to the Senate last year, and there you will find the views of the company set forth in lull, with an article prex)ared by our secretary, Mr. Atkins, whicli is printed here in fall. Mr. Sherman. What page is it! Mr. Miller. It commences on page 175. You will find it a very thorough and carefully prepared article. I will do nothing more than call your attention to the results. Now, in the first place, the Congress w^hich met in Paris in 1879, over whicli Mr. De Lesseps presided, and to which conference our Government sent Admiral Ammen and Engineer Meuocal as delegates, was composed of leading engineers of Europe, and found that the canal at that time would have something lilje 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 tons of freight to begin with. Tliat was in 1879. This report made here takes from the British Board of Trade the actual commerce of the world, and it divides it into that portion which ^\'^ould be entirely tributary to the canal and that which would be liable to be inflaencedto the canal anddrawu toward it, and it is accarate as to the commerce which exists; of course, no one can undertake to say whether it will all go through the canal. The only thing we can say is that commerce seeks the shortest line and cheapest route, and it is fair to infer that the commerce of the world which wants to pass from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic, and vice versa, and the cheapest — whi<'h can be accomplished in the least time — and I will from the Atlantic to the Pacific, will take the line which is the shortest simply refer you to this ; but 1 simply call attention to what it sliow s. It shows, in the first place, the class which is entirely tributary to the canal — that is to say, which would ])ass throngh the canal if it sought the shortest and clieapest route — amounts to 5,332,415 tons. The second class, which is largely tributary to it, that might go through it but would not find as much profit in going throngh as the other class, amounts to 2,526,542 tons. Then comes the third class of tonnage, partially, and only partially, tributary to it — such tonnage as upon the west coast of South America, we will say in the lower part of Chile, down that way, which might go around Cape Horn or might come through the canal, depending u])on which would be the cheaper. This is only small, amounting to 262,136 tons, making a total of 8,122,093 tons. Now, that takes no account whatever of the growth of commerce by the construction of the canal; and let me say here that these figures correspond substantially with the estimates made by the French engi- neers at the conference in 1879, adding the annual growth of commerce from tliat time to this, and it makes substantially the same figures as ours. But if there was not but a million tons to-day in sight that would probably go through the canal, I undertake to say, judging from the past, that within ten years' time from the construction of the canal it would have a commerce of more than 10,000,009 tons. When the Suez Canal was opened at first it seemed to be an absolute failure; commerce still continued to go around the southern point of Africa. But from year to year it began to gain, until to-day it (a gentleman gave me a 32 NICARAGUA CANAL. paniplilet here to-day sliowing the last report) — well, it does not matter as to gettiug it exactly, but the returns there are from 8,000,000 to 12,000,000 and 13,000,000 tons per year, and the receipts are, 1 remem- ber, given in this last report, $15,000,000; and after paying for all bet- terments and all commissions which they are comi)elled to pay under their concessions and under their rights, it left a dividend upon their stock of 18 x>er cent. It has frequently paid 20 per cent, and the stock has been as high as 7o0 in Ptiris; and I only speak of this to show you how commerce grows when you open a new, desirable, and cheap way. In the Sault ISte. Marie Canal, before the Government built the pres- ent lock, there was a private lock there. The largest amount of com- merce passing through that, I believe, was about 500,000 tons. The Government built a lock — a very large lock — sufticient to carrj^ several vessels at a time; and what has been the result? The Sault iSte. Marie Canal passed last year, I think, over 17,000 craft of different kinds and something like 12,000,000 to 15,000,000 tons of freight. That has all been created since the lock was built. People did not go into tiie region about Duluth until there was means of transi)ortation, and when it came they went into the country and opened w]) the mines and iron ore and milling business and wheat business, and the result has been the stupendous amount of material which passed through the Sault. Mr. DoOLiTTLE. And there the waters are closed during the winter time? Mr. Miller. Yes, it only runs from 225 to 230 days in the year. Now, what is the position of the Pacific Coast? We have a vast terri- tory reaching from Mexico to British Columbia. It has the finest climate in America, and it has the nmst fertile land. The State of Washington or the State of Oregon will produce all the wheat, if it is cultivated, that this country requires for our whole 70,000,000 peojde. It is estimated that the Pacific Coast alone is capable of maintaining a population of more than 100,000,000, but it has less poimlation than the cities of New York and Brooklyn combined, and why ? Simply because the material which it produces is raw material, and it nuist have a cheap and quick outlet to the markets, and it is farther from the markets of the world to-day than any other civilized portion of the globe. It is 14,500 miles from San Francisco to New York by water, and the same distance, or a little more, to Liverpool, whereas India and Argentina get their wheat into the Liverpool market in less than a quarter of the time it takes from San Francisco around Cape Horn, and the result has been what? The country is left vacant, our people do not go there. They take up less fertile and colder ami less desirable lauds. If that canal were opened, the raw i)r()ducts could be carried to the markets of the world at rates which would leave a fair margin of profit to the prodncer. If it is done, they would be able to compete with Argentina, India, and Ivussia. Unless it is done, the export of wheat from the Pacific Coast will substantially cease Avithin five years, be- cause there is no profit in it, and it is growing less and less because Argentina is being developed. Only a few days ago I was talking to the secretary of our legatiou at Argentina, who had returned on a visit home, and who gave me an account of the railroads and opening up of that country and develoi)ing of the growth of wheat, which all goes to prove this work must be done and done speedily if the Pacific Coast is to be developed. Now, the lumber and timber standing in the States of Oregon and Washington, if increased 25 cents in value per thousand, would "more than i)ay tlie cost of building this canal twice over. Within ten years the Atlantic Coast must have this timber. As everyone NICARAGUA CANAL. 33 knows, the great bulk of the white pine of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota is disappearing. Ten years from now will see it all absolutely used up and it will not be able to supply the demand at all. Some two or three years ago several ships laden with spars, the finest in the world for shipbuilding, went from Puget Sound around Cape Horn to Maine and went into ships building in Maine. The shipbuild- ing timber of Maine and all the Eastern coast is disappearing, and if the canal were built to carry the raw material, which can not be carried by railroads successfully, it would at once attract a large population to that country. I have no doubt it would double within live years. The railroads who are fighting this enterprise, and believe it would ruin them, I think would be greatly benefited by it, because the business of the transcontinental roads, their through business, has never been any considerable return to them — less than 10 per cent; but put 5,000,000 of people upon the Pacific Coast and the local business, the short haul of the railroads of the Pacific Coast, will be c[uadrupled, and the profits of these roads will be something enormous. I refer the committee to this printed report here for exact data. I am speaking now entirely upon what I believe will be the result, and as to the exact data I prefer to have the committee take the report made by the company which is, in our judgment, correct. The Chairman. What do you estimate the receipts of the canal, say, a year after its completion? Mr. Miller. Well, we believe at the opening of the canal that out of this 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 tons of freight, which is tributary to it, and which ought to go through it, that from a half to two-thirds would go through it at once. We have no doubt of that at all. And in the statement which I made to the committee of the Senate when they changed the bill and substantially took control — took ten directors and took two-thirds or three-fourths of the stock — I based the results upon these figures. Say, 4,000,000 tons, at $1,50 a ton toll — and I assume the tolls will not be higher than that — although the Suez Canal when it started had a toll of $2.50 a ton, and it is now $1.85 or $1.87; but 4,000,000 tons, at $1.50 a ton, would be a great inducement for freight to come that way, and that would give us $6,000,000 on 4,000,000 tons. If the Government were to guarantee or issue $100,000,000 bonds at 3 per cent, the result would be as this : The interest would be $3,000,- 000; the operating and maintenance of the canal will be $1,000,000. We are sure that is quite safe, and we think more than safe, but we will call it $1,000,000. That brings it up to $4,000,000. Then $1,000,000 put in a sinking fund for sixty years — the bonds to be sixty years in length — and $1,000,000 per annum added to the sinking fund will at the expiration of sixty years have paid off the entire debt. One million dollars then should be put in the sinking fund, and that would be $5,000,000, and that would have to be paid before anything came to the stock at all. Then, if 1 am correct in supposing 4,000,000 tons might pass, there would be $1,000,000 left for dividends upon the stock, or if not, even if it were to take two or three years to arrive at that it would not be entirely out of keeping of great enterprises of this kind, which require time. Now, as to sailing vessels passing through it, it has been held, I understand, that sailing vessels can not pass through it; but that is a mistake, as I have shown you, as you will find from officers of the Navy if you call them, and I am frank to say this, that one of the first and most important results of this canal would be the abandonment of the building o€ more sailing vessels for that trade which is now carried N c 3 34 NICARAGUA CANAL. around Cape Horn. Sail vessels will not be bnilt at all. The vessels will be wliat the German and English bnild, called tramp steamers, or trade carriers with a low consumption of coal, making from 7 to 10 knots an hour, thus nmking the trip within a reasonable length of time. Mr. Scott, manager of tlie great Union Iron Works of San Francisco, stated to me the last tiuie I was there that when this canal was built there were not half shipyards enough in the United States to build steamers required for this trade, and undoubtedly the business would change into this class of steam carriers, just as it has done in the Suez Canal. In that canal when it began there were quite a large number of sailing vessels which went through, but no more were built. Steam- ers came in their place, and last year I think only one sailing vessel went through the Suez Canal. There may have been two or three, but my memory is not jirecise upon that question ; but certainly not more than three, four, or live sailing vessels went through. The whole busi- ness has been transferred to the steamers, and that is one of the advan- tages, because it reduces the time, and the cost of commerce is time as well as in anything else; because it necessitates insurance during the time the produce is afloat. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I want to ask you what difference that would make in marine insurance, if you have investigated that at all, as between going through this canal and around the Horn? Mr. IMiLLEE. Well, you can not insure a vessel to go around the Horn uidess it is first-class; there is no marine insurance company which will take it. Mr. Bennett. That is in consequence of the danger? Mr. Miller. In consequence of the danger. Let me read you a few words from Capt. William M. Merry, of San Francisco, who has been for many years a navigator around Cape Horn. Captain Merry says: The difficulties of the Cape Horn route Mr. Nimrao lightly dismisses as of no con- Bequence, as he may safely do at Huntington, Long Island. When I recall the ter- rific gales, the heavy seas, the sleet, snow, and ice encountered during the eleven voyages I made around the Cape, I can realize the contempt due such a perversion of the truth. No vessel is insurable at usual rates by marine underwriters for the Cape Horn voyage unless she rates first-class, and the class of ships rounding Cape Horn is the largest and finest in the world. As they approach the Cape they are stripiied of all light yards and sails ; prepared for a severe contest with the elements, which they seldom escape. The marine annals of San Francisco are a lifelong rec- ord of disasters off Cape Horn, and occasionally an able ship, tired of the contest, with crew worn-out, spars and sails blown away, squares oft^ away for the Cape of Good Hope, to reach San Francisco by a route fully one-third longer, and tempestuous at that. Mr. Corliss. I desire to ask what the present owners are to accept under this plan, $7,000,000 of stock! Mr. Miller. There is no plan at all, sir. Mr. Corliss. Well, it has been before us. Mr. Miller. What I stated here this morning, the answer I gave to the Senate committee — you perhaps were not in at the time, but I will repeat it — we were asked by the Senate committee several years ago upon what terms we would allow the United States Government to come in and control this enterprise through the company, and after consultation with the leading directors and stockholders I made this statement, that the Government might take the compajiy, taking two- thirds of its directors, to be appointed by the President, and taking two-thirds or three-fourths of the stock in the Treasury of the United States, taking absolute control of it if they would return to us the amount of money that we had expended upon it, which we stated to be in round figures about $4,500,000, and that in addition to that they NICARAGUA CANAL. 35 should give us of the stock of the maritime compauy whatever they thought we were entitled to for our services, for our energy, and time in holding this thing and risks we had taken in it, and that we would submit ourselves to the justice of Congress upon that question as to wliat it should be. As to the amount of money that we had expended, we would submit that to a commission to be appointed in any way that might be agreed, only that one of our comijany might be there to see justice was done, and one to be appointed by the President, and if those two did not agree, why those two should select the third, and that whatever they found we had actually expended should be retiurned to us in cash or its equivalent in bonds. That j)roposition was made to the committee, and that is the only proposition we have made; and as to the expenditures, we have preserved all of the books of the company and all the vouchers and all the tiles of all kinds and of every name and nature, and we can show to the commission or to a committee or to anybody everything that we have expended and what it was expended for. It is unnecessary, it seems to me, that this committee, or any com- mittee in Congress, should go into the details of that, because it would be endless, as it would include five years of work and thousands of vouchers and thousands of items, but they are all there and can be shown. We should, of course, expect to be paid for all moneys we have expended in what might be called promoting the work. That is to say, I have spent three years of time in going to different parts of the world speaking upon this and writing upon it, but the promotion work has been comparatively small, comparatively a few thousand dol- lars in comparison with the work we have done; but that was necessary to bring the enterprise before the world and have them understand it. We, fortunately, have never expended any money in Washington except our own traveling exi^enses, and that has been charged up, and the expenses of our own attorneys in New York who have come down here to express to the committee just the legal condition of affairs. We have not any $2,000,000 or $3,000,000 to account for as expended in legislative work; we have not done anything of the kind. W^e have not had it to expend, and would not have spent it if we had had it. All of our accounts will be open if it is done, and I want to simply say this, and I want to repeat what I said this morning: As the matter stands now we are prevented from getting any money or doing anything with it, and of course we may be compelled — gentlemen who have put their time and money into this thing — to lose it all ; but if we do that we shall do it without complaint, for I say for myself I have never been engaged in a work that was likely to be of so much benefit to the whole worlcl, particularly to my own country, as this, but we feel now that in some means or in some way Congress ought to say, "We will take this work off your hands upon the terms proposed," or "We do not want it at all," and then give us a clear field, and if we can not make anything out of it and get the money outside we will simply retire beaten and let some others undertake it. That is the way we feel about it. I am not finding any fault with Congress at all. I have been here myself as a member of both Houses, and I know the difticulty of doing a great work of this kind, and I know there are a great many men in Congress who honestly believe the G-overnment ought not to have anything to do with it, that it is an outside affair, and it is all wrong and should not be touched, and I appreciate all that, and I know they are honest in that, although I do not agree with them myself, but we understand all that difficulty and have no fault to find at all. 36 NICARAGUA CANAL. The gentlemen, particularly in the Senate, who have been working on tbis for years, making it you miglit say a hobby, attempting to get it tlirough, have treated us with all fairness and we hav^e no complaint to make, and so far as the House is concerned this is the first time I ever appeared before any committee having anything to do with the ques- tion, and we have no complaint to make here in any way, shai)e, or manner, but we do feel we have the right now to ask that we know whether the Government is going to take the work and carry it through to success or else that the Government shall in some way indicate to the world at large its decision not to have anything to do with it because it does not think it wise, or ought not to be done by our Gov- ernment, and leave us free to go over the world and get what money we can get to carry on this work. We certainly shall never give it up until our concessions shall expire, and we hope in some way to carry it to success. Mr. Sherman. How long do your concessions run? Mr. MiLLEii. Our concessions were for ten years, and three years remain, and then we have the right to ten years additional, making twenty years in all, which makes thirteen years in which we have yet to complete the work. Mr. Corliss. Are any of the terms of the concessions such as would compel the paying of a revenue to ISTicaragua and Costa Eica? Mr. Miller. Not unless they get dividends on the stock. They stand like any other stockholder. Nicaragua has $6,000,000 of stock and Costa Rica $1,500,000 stock, and if dividends are made of course they would get their pro rata. Mr. Corliss. But there is nothing to prevent their being paid off and the United States having a majority of the stock simxjiy charge nothing for maintenance'? Mr. Miller. Of course the United States can from the beginning, if they saw fit, pay interest on the bonds and make the canal free at any time, or make the tolls a dollar to begin with, or a half dollar, or any- thing it likes. If they control the business they can do that, and I presume the Government, after getting revenue sufficient to pay interest on the bonds, would probably reduce the tolls materially, and that of course is one reason why the stock we might get as compensation for our services would be worth very little, because it would depend entirely upon whether the Government is going to reduce the tolls, but it is fair to assume the Government is going to treat us properly and would not reduce the tolls to where nothing would be paid upon the stock, because if it did it would not be justified as far as Nicaragua and Costa Eica are concerned. It Avould, injustice to them, have to compensate them and pay them 5 or 6 per cent dividend on their stock. I assume it would not do anything else and would not treat Nicaragua and Costa Eica in that way, and it j)robably would not treat its own citizens any worse than it did them. At all events we would rest our case there. Mr. Sherman. I understand the proposed tolls are $1.50 a ton? Mr. Miller. Of course no action has ever been had upon that. Originally, when it was first started, it was assumed $13.50 a ton, because Suez charged that at first, but there was so much business it found it profitable to reduce the tolls to $1.85 a ton, and I have not any doubt at all but what this company would start its tolls at $1.50 a ton. That would be my judgment and desire, and if I was in control at the time I would have something to say about it. Mr. Sherman. The i)robable tonnage would unquestionably yield a sufticient revenue to pay the interest upon these bonds and also provide a sinking fund for them? NICARAGUA CANAL. 37 Mr. Miller. We have no doubt about that at all. If I had as much money as some one or two men in this country have I would build the canal out of my annual revenues. There are half a dozen men who could build it out of their annual revenues and have the best canal in the world, but the diftlculty now among our American people is just what 1 have expressed; that is, people say the Government ought to control it, and therefore the Government ought to pay for it, but we can not do anything until Congress has decided to take it, or decided they will not have anything to do with it; and if Congress decides that, I sliall make a vigorous appeal to the people of America to get the money to enable us to make it a success, and if that fails I will retire and let somebody else take it up after me. Mr. Wanger. Did I understand you to say that what you call the promoting exi)enses had been charged up? iMr. Miller. They are a part of the expenses; for instance, my ex- penses of traveling over the country and publishing pamphlets and things of that kind. We have not paid the press of this country any- thing, and I am frank to say the press of this country have published arti- cles regarding it; in fact, they have come to us and asked them and printed them, and there is no expense attending the press of this country except the mere notices of our annual meetings, that is all, which we ])aid for as any other amount due; otherwise the American press have given us hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of advertisement, w hich would have been charged for ordinarily, in so far as arguments in favor of the canal are concerned. That has been so all over the country and we have to acknowledge that. ^Ir. Sherman. I understand the percentage of the whole expense is very trifling 1 Mr. Miller. It is a very small percentage of the total — probably it might be 5 per cent. It is what has been done in every enterprise, rail- road or otherwise, and is a legitimate charge, Mr. Ellett. I would like to know whetli the terms of the Mahon bill — I have not been here during all of your speech — are objectionable? Mr. Miller. I have not read the bill at all, or looked at it. I simply stated what our proposition was to the Government. Any bill which carries that out, why, we will undoubtedly accept, but I have never read any portion of the other and do not care to. Thereujion the committee went into executive session. Washington, D. C, Tuesday^ April 1, 1896. The committee, having under consideration the aSTicaragua Canal, met at 11 a. m., Hon. William P. Hepburn, chairman. STATEMENT OF CAPT. H. C. TAYLOR, OF NEWPORT, R. I., PRESI- DENT OF THE NAVAL WAR COLLEGE. The Chairman. There are three propositions up here upon which we wish nyore particularly to get information. One is the practicability of the Nicaragua Canal; another is the probable accuracy of the estimates made by the company; and the third is the probable use of the canal, as measured by the tonnage. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I would like to add that we expected to have Pro ies.nr ]Meuocal before the committee this morning, and I have received a D{.te from t)ie Acting Secretary saying that Professor Menocal would 38 NICARAGUA CANAL. be unable to appear to-day; but lie lias submitted a paper which goes over the surveys, and answers completely all the objections and criti- cisms ottered by the recent Commission, consisting of Engineer Ludlow and others, wiio visited the canal. We have the letters of other experts in this statement made by Professor Menocal. Professor Men- ocal states that he hopes to be her'e within a week from this time to answer such questions as the members of the committee may desire to aslv him. The Chairman. I do not wish to dictate the line of Captain Taylor's speech, but I suggested such facts as perhaps the members of the com- mittee desire to hear. Mr. Wanger. I would like to have Captain Taylor tell us all of the facts within his personal observation. Captain Taylor. As to the practicability of the canal, as has been stated by Mr. Doolittle, Mr. Menocal has a reply, of wliich I knew before I came here, and which I believe to be very full. I have never taken that part in this enterprise which would enable me to give you any remarks as regards the engineering details. I was for many years engaged, with the consent of the Government, being on leave from the Navy Department, in promoting the enterprise in New York, and I became, in 1885 or 1880, vice-president and general manager of the company, and continued this service until the time came for me to again take a ship, when I resigned and went to China in command of a vessel. On returning, I found that, owing to the general depression in business, the enterprise was flagging. I have given great attention to what you might call the general aspects of the enterprise. The chairman first mentioned the question of practicability. This question will be answered by the paper of Mr. Menocal. Its practi- cability has been conceded since 1809 continuously, and it was discussed before that from the days of Cortez ; but since 1809 it has been discussed practically, and whenever a doubt has arisen as to the location, the Government has sent surveying parties there. As to the matter of cost, I think you can say that everybody may be right in the opinions expressed upon the subject. It is possible, if we wished to do so, to spend $12(),()0(),0()0 or $130,000,000 in building that canal. Under cer- tain circumstances that much could be spent; but under judicious and wise management the figures that we had from parties not personally interested in the canal would make it cost not above 885,()0(>,000. The company estimated that it could be built for $05,000,000, but they chose to put that figure up in order to take the verdict of those who were nonpartisan. At the same time many persons who are not otherwise concerned in it, such as contractors and others, as well as Captain Webb, the veteran shipbuilder, who as long ago as 1850 became inter- ested in the Nicaragua Canal, said that they would be glad to take the contract and make a profit out of it at $15,000,000 to^$50,000,000. I make these statements to show the range of opinion upon the question of cost. If you were to build double locks, if you would widen the rock cut from 80 to 120 feet, and much else of the same sort, then you might run the cost up to $90,000,000. The chairman mentioned something about the probability of the work being done and completed on the estimates. That is also covered by what I have stated. In reference to the use of the canal, it is a thing to which I have given a good deal of attention and thought. Its use will be both national and international. It will be, as we believe, a great factor in getting our flag flying ui)on deep water ships, and in taking an intervening step, as it were, to deep-sea commerce by first NICARAGUA CANAL. 39 establishing- a coastwise commerce in deep-sea ships. In other words, ships which clear from New York or New Orleans for Puget Sonnd or San Francisco will be, you may say, coastwise commerce, and yet they will go through that canal, and in order to reach it will require to be deep-sea ships. By such means it is hoj^ed that we will see a new birth of American shipping on the high seas. In looking at the map, it appears among other things that the nation occupying the North American Continent should naturally be the one to carry all the commerce that passes between Asia and Europe by way of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. In order to show the shortest route across the North Pacific between our coast and Yokahama and Hong- kong, an accurate chart of distances is necessary. The rectangular or Mercator's projection is familiar in maps of everyday use, but it fails in that it shows the shortest distance as apj^arently curved. I think we all recognize that as true, and that we must go up to the northern lati- tudes in order to get the shortest distances. Nevertheless, I find that many shipowners, men who have been engaged in shipping all their lives, do not fully realize that idea, because the graphic representation of distances across the sea has not been properly presented to them. Concerning the business of the Nicaragua Canal and the trade thence to China and Japan, the commercial world is much deceived, because it has not that proper graphic representation of great circle routes. I will send your committee to-morrow some charts published by the Government, which show by means of the guomonic projection the shortest distance as a straight line. It indicates also in a general way the commerce which will go through the Nicaragua Canal in future. It has been claimed by opponents of the canal that vessels from the canal passing across the Pacific to China and Japan would pass at once toward Honolulu and away from our Pacific coast, leaving our Pacific cities far away from the line of sea trade. Indeed, when I arrived from China at San Francisco some years ago, I found that placards had been posted in various public places, saying that if the Nicaragua Canal were built the trade would be diverted from the Pacific coast, and the grass w^ould be growing in the streets of San Francisco a few years after the canal was completed. This statement is absolutely contrary to the facts of the case, and upon it much misconception has been based. The Pacific coast, after leaving the canal, trends so much to the westward that vessels would not in any case depart far from it until between Acapulco and Mazat- lan. Taking Mazatlan for example, we find the shortest distance line thence to Yokohama or Hongkong passes at no great distance from San Francisco and other California ports, which would present most favorable conditions of coaling and cargoes to the great lines of freight steamers that are to use the canal. I therefore say that the natural route from Liverpool and New York to China and Japan, via the Nic- aragua Canal, will be directly along the Pacific coast. There would not be a great divergence in touching at any Pacific port of the United States. This line will naturally touch at or near the Aleutian group of islands, where a coaling station can be i^laced. The development of trade on the Pacific coast will be assisted by the Nicaragua Canal. Part of the trade between Yokohama and Shanghai will be assisted. Another point to be considered is that steamers must make their trips short in order that they may carry only a small amount of coal, so as to not infringe unduly upon the space allotted to cargo. For this reason, vessels from London going by the Suez Canal all follow lines where they can stop frequently in order not to interfere with the cargo by taking 40 NICARAGUA CANAL. ]ar^(i quantities of coal al)oard and for the local cargo business as well, 1 mention tliis to show that it is natnral that this should be done upon routes which will use the ^Nicaragua Canal. Puget Sound and the Aleu- tian group will give other coaling stations and new cargoes to the north and west, and sailing from the Aleutian grouj) to Hakodadi, Yokohama, and Shanghai we have a route as favorable as any that could be arranged, even if you could select the ports and place them at the points desired. These facts are not understood, I believe, by nine-tenths of the busi- ness men, nor by ninety-nine out of every hundred people of less educa- tion, and one of the immediate results of this ignorance is seen in the newspaper statements to the effect that the American continent will be left out of the current of trade passing from Europe to Asia by way of the i«Iicaragua Canal. If I have made myself clear in this respect, I think I have done as much as I can now do without the ligares neces- sary to discuss matters more in detail before your honorable committee. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Can you give us the figures in reference to the tou- nage of the canal? Captain Tayloe. I made most of the older estimates myself, but 1 have not them with me. I would be very glad to send them to your committee. I can say, within wide limits, without figuring on anything which would be brought into existence by the canal, but which would need the canal as soon as it was built, in order to bring the right result in somewhere between our figures. In 1888 we made figures for 181)5, the time when we expected the canal to be completed, and we estimated a maxinuim of 8,000,000 tons without knowing what would be the exact tolls per ton, and so we figured upon those charged in the Suez Canal, which were in the neighborhood of $1.50 per ton. We based our figures on various sources — the trafOc around Cape Horn ; up(m that between New Orleans, New York, and Callao, and other points in west- ern South America; upon a certain amount of traffic between New York and San Francisco, Seattle, and San Diego, and ujjon an almost imme- diate trade between New Orleans and the points in that neighborhood. We included, I think, such trade as might go from New York to Yoko- hama, and from Liverpool to Seattle and Tacoma, and from San Fran- cisco to Liverpool. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You have not reckoned any wheat from the State ot Washington at Puget Sound? Captain Taylor. The figures included the wheat from San Francisco. I can not remember as to Seattle. The figures include some lumber shipped from Puget Sound. Mr. Bennett. What would be the probable cost per annum of main- tenance of this canal'? Captain Taylor. It would be about $1,500,000 per year. That was about our figure. Mr. Bennett. You say that you estimate the maxinuim figure of the cost of the canal at $85,000,000? Captain Taylor. The board made an estimate of $87,000,000. This estimate was absolutely unprejudiced, but we thought, and I believe the company still thinks, that the canal can be built for $05,000,(100. Mr. Bennett. And you give the maximum cost of running the canal at $1,500,000? Captain Taylor. We saw no reason to put it above $750,000 ; but we chose to do so, basing it on the Suez Canal, which has had a large expense because of the drifting sand, from which the Nicaragua Canal would be free. NICARAGUA CANAL. 41 Mr. DooLiTTLE. I want you to explain the effect of tlie doldrums at Panama? Captain Taylor. The doldrums extend north and south of the equa- tor. They vary, and, according as the sun goes north and south in dec- lination, the belt moves north and south. The heart of that belt seems to be a little north of the equator and it includes Panama. Speaking only from memory, this belt of calms covers the Panama Canal line dur- ing about ten months of every year, during which time the light and variable winds make it diflScult for sailing ships to move. The Nica- ragua Canal may be said to be outside of that belt, and during ten months of the year they have breezes such as to enable sailing vessels to approach or leave the harbors on both sides of the isthmus. The northeast trade wind, blowing from about east by north at Greytown, is nearly an on-shore wind at Greytown, but sailing vessels would rarely have difficulty in clawing offshore, and then towboats would always be at hand. Mr. Wanger. What distance would towage be required? (captain Taylor. In this case the maximum would be 6 or 8 miles. I have been on both sides in sailing shijjs and steamers, and there was no time when I felt that I would be delayed more than a day or two. I was speaking only of the fi-esh breezes blowing on shore, which, not being gales of wind, are what sailing vessels like. Vessels only need an ofting from the breakwater 3 or 4 miles. Mr. Bennett. As a matter of fact, can sailing vessels afford to pay $1.50 per ton for going through the canal"? Captain Taylor. Yes, sir; and make a large amount of money, rather than go around Cape Horn. The Chairman. I think it has been stated that, with this canal, sailing vessels may be done away with. Captain Taylor. They will not grow less, nor pass away, but their relative imj)ortance will grow less, because of the greater number of steamers. The tonnage of sailing vessels will not diminish, but where one will be seen in the canal per day there will be twenty or thirty steamers. There are many remarks that might be made as regards the use of the canal which one could occupy days in discussing, but I think what the committee wanted me to touch upon more than anything else was the points upon which some objection has been made to the canal and to which some reply could be made. Various matters of great interest will follow the construction of the canal. One is the question of a great tropical metropolis which may be expected to arise in Central America upon or near the canal. This, of course, is in the realm of fancy; it is coming, but when we can not tell. One of the gentlemen of the committee wished me to say something about the military and naval aspect of the question. I have the per- mission of the Secretary of the Navy to appear before you and state, so far as I can, what you wish to know about it. The question has been raised in the newspapers of late that if this canal be owned by the United States, or controlled by our Government, there will be a great deal of trouble to retain it; that foreign jiowers with superior fleets will attack it, and that we will be compelled to use a large force, and that in favoring this canal we will be building, or helping to build, something that will weaken us; and that the position of the canal will be a dangerous and isolated one. I do not think that that can be answered or intelligently discussed, because it is according to one's point of view. It is something like the objections which may be made 42 NICARAGUA CANAL. to the accumulation of wealth for fear it will be stolen, or like objec- tions to the acquiring of a handsome house because it might be burned down, or because it would give more or less trouble to keep in order. I do not know how to answer that question in any other way. The canal will be a most valuable possession to that country that shall own or control it. Mr, Patterson. Tbe only trouble about your illustration is that 1 do not think any other j)ower could take this canal. Captain Taylor. I am quite sure of that. The position of the canal is of great strategic importance, aiul I think that of itself will some day enable the United States to use a smaller naval force and a smaller military force, owing to the strength of the position which it will then hold. Mr. Patterson. Have you given an estimate of the cost of the canal? I have not been present during all of your remarks. Captain Taylor. I have given an estimate of the company when I was general manager, and also other estimates. The company esti- mated that it would cost $65,000,000. We then asked a board of the most eminent engineers of the United States, who were totally unprej- udiced and who possessed no interest in the company in the way of stock or anything else, and they s^jent several months in making an exhaustive examination. That board was comijosed of the State engi- neer of Xew York, and Mr. Wellington, editor of the Engineering News, whose standing is well known; and also railroad engineers well known in the country, as well as one or two other men of scientific attainments. We had a commission of five. The company was not represented. I was at the time a director and the general manager, and we were very particular in that respect. This board stated that our estimates were good, but by reason of wishing to secure their esti- mates against all possibility of being too low they raised our figures to $87,000,000. Mr. Sherman. They made a horizontal addition of 15 or 20 per cent on the cost? Captain Taylor. About 20 per cent, as I remember. From that time on we took the figures which they left in our hands; but I think it will not cost anything like that figure now, because excavation is coming down very materially in cost as time goes on; still, their esti- mate has been retained. Mr. Patterson. You have gone over the ground? Captain Taylor. I know very little of the interior. My business was, first, that of promoting the company, and later that of vice-presi- dent and general manager in New York. I know more of the estimates in reference to the traffic, although I am not an expert. We in the Navy are not trained constructing enghieers. I was on leave by the Government for the purpose of assisting in the promotion of the canal in reference to the engineering. I think you will hear fiom Chief Engi- neer Menocal. Mr. Patterson. He is the engineer? Captain Taylor. He is a civil engineer in the Navy, and has been prominent in his profession. Mr. Patterson. He is a civil engineer? Captain Taylor. Yes, sir; of distinction. Mr. Patterson. From your knowledge of Professor Menocal, you place reliance upon his skill? Captain Taylor. Yes, sir; a reliance based upon a long acquaint- ance. Mr. Menocal is certainly very competent for that work. You will hear from him fully and exhaustively. NICARAGUA CANAL. 43 Mr. Patterson. What is the consensus of opinion in reference to the canal among naval officers. Captain Taylor. I have never heard but two officers question the wisdom of this i^^oject out of six or eight hundred whom I know, and I must have heard three or four hundred speak of it. It is a matter of fi^equent discussion among us in every form. Every officer in the Navy knows that country, because we are a great deal in the Caribbean Sea. We are called there quite frequently by political disturbances on the west side. We are there more than we are here. I have never heard but two officers who condemned it. One questioned whether it would add to our military strength to have it, and another doubted whether it would not injure our transcontinental railroads. It is favored among naval officers more universally than anything I know of. Mr. Patterson. If you were a business man, would you come to the conclusion that this canal would cheapen rates across the continent? Captain Taylor. I have no doubt it would increase the amount of goods transported from the Pacific Slope. It would give the railroads that much more money. Mr. Patterson. The effect would be to introduce an important factor of competition to cheapen rates, practically throughout the country, and, at the same time, by increasing the volume of business, would permit the railroads to live and thrive. Captain Taylor. My impression is that the volume of business would be increased to such an extent that it would resemble tliat occa- sion when the rates of postage being reduced there resulted a great increase in the amount of money received. I should think it would be the same in this case. The Chairman. The suggestion has been made that the population would be so increased that there would be a great deal of passenger business which would add to the revenues of the railroads. Captain Taylor. Yes, sir. Mr. Bennett. In your computations in reference to the probable traffic which would be received by the canal, was any traffic now car- ried by the transcontinental railroads taken into consideration'? Captain Taylor. None, as far as I remember, only the present traf- fic water-borne. We proposed that the tolls should be such that vessels can make a jirofit going through the canal. Mr. Bennett. You believe the minimum tonnage would be 5,000,000 tons? Captain Taylor. Yes, sir; but if you desire to quote me I would prefer that you wait, because I shall be able to show the figures in that connection when I can get at my papers. Mr. Patterson. I supjiose you are able to give an intelligent opinion in respect to the trade winds at the point where this canal would cross the isthmus? Captain Taylor. Yes, sir. Mr. Patterson. I am told that at Panama sailing vessels practically could not use a canal there for the reason that the air is calm on both sides, whereas, on the Nicaragua Canal, it has been insisted that sail- ing vessels would have the advantage of trade winds both in the Carib- bean Sea and the Pacific Ocean. Captain Taylor. That is true; I do not remember the exact figures. The belt stays over Panama about ten months of the year, and at Nicaragua it is calm i)erhaps only two months in the year. I have been eleven days in sight of the hills around Aspinwall, in command of the Saratoga, a sailing man-of-war, trying to get in. 44 NICARAGUA CANAL. T would suggest that if tlie chairman wouhl send to the IS'avy Depart- ment for the charts of Lieutenant Maury they will show the calm belts. The situation is Avorse on the Pacific coast than on the Atlantic side. There is no diflSculty in regard to winds at the Mcaragua Canal. You can be convinced of that when you examine these charts; but, i^ending that, I can state quite positively that the difficulties at Panama are very great, while they practically do not exist at Nicaragua. Mr. Patterson. Some years ago a gentleman, whose name I will not mention, but who claimed to be familiar with these matters, was very much in favor of the Eads system. Captain Taylor. The ship railway at Tehuantepec? Mr. Patterson. Yes, sir; and he described the difficulties with the Nicaragua Canal to be these: That this canal was excavated for 20 miles through a ledge of rock, and that it was prat'tically impossible for ships to go through without being injured, and without coming in contact with the sides of the canal, and all that sort of thing. Captain Taylor. The entire distance of the Nicaragua Canal is 169 miles, of which there are 27 miles of canal, and the rest is river and lake. There are only about 2 miles of rock. The remainder is dredging in the open country. There is a rock cut of about If miles, and to that they add another piece, which makes about 2i or 3 miles. Mr. Patterson. In passing through in winds or storms, would a ves- sel be liable to be pushed up against the sides of the canal and be injured? Captain Taylor. In a deep rock cut there are no side winds, and in the open country a vessel could run up aginst the soft sides and would not be hurt. On the Suez Canal they have sand storms, and sometimes vessels are forced against the sides in a storm, but they are not injured. I have laid there all night in a ship without injury or discomfort. Mr. Patterson. I did not think there was anything in the complaint, but I wanted to get it in the record, as that was one of the points made against the canal. Captain Taylor. It is without foundation in fact. The amount of rock cut is so small that the statement may be regarded as a mistake. There is a deep rock cut in this i)lan, but it was not forced upon our engineers as a necessity; it was taken as a favorable alternative. The canal might pass around it by taking another route, if it was desired, but it would be 7 miles longer. The rock cut is an advantage, because a portion of the material excavated is needed for the jetties at Grey- town for the Ochoa dam, for revetments of the banks at certain places which are liable to wash. We have to get much rock from somewhere, and this was thought to be a favorable location to obtain it. It is in some respects the same principle which governs a railroad engineer in making his "cuts" and "fills." Mr. Corliss. Mr. Miller said that practically the bottom of the canal was free sand and clay. Did your commission have anything to say on that subject *? Captain Taylor. We had borings made to a certain extent, and the commission appointed by the company gave their opinion and made some suggestions. There is no reason to decide all minor details of the canal now. These matters are not usually decided in a great work like this until the time for each detail comes. Sufficient contour lines and borings and gaugings are completed to make it certain that the project is feasible and economical. At a later period, as we approach each detail of the work, one hundred borings and gaugings and contours will be undertaken for every one made before. It is nothing against the NICARAGUA CANAL. 45 project tliat tliere sliould be a preliminary examiuatioii for preliminary work, and full examiuation for the detailed work. All great works proceed in tLis way. Mr. Bennett. If you have finished, I suppose you will prepare and forward us the papers which you have promised? Captain Tayloe. I have finished, and I will recommend you now to Mr. IMeuocal, who will appear before you as soon as he recovers. Adjourned. Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, Thursday^ A])ril 3, 1896. The Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce this day met, Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair. The committee had under consideration the subject of the Nicaragua Canal. STATEMENT OF MR. LINDON W. BATES, OF CHICAGO. Mr. Bates said : Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen : In being here I accept the invita- tion, as I understand it, to speak from the standpoint both of a large liolder of property on the Pacific Coast and to represent American invention and contractors in such relations as to what they have done and what they can do as far as the Nicaragua Canal is concerned, and I would say that I have been familiar with the reports of the Nicaragua Canal for tlie last seven or eight years, and have conferred very fre- quently with oflBcers of the company, and more particularly with the subordinates who did the actual work of boring and surveying on the line of the canal. I have np to within a year ago been engaged upon the Chicago Drainage Canal, which affords the most modern parallel to the work of the Nicaragua Canal, treating it from an American stand- point. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I wish you would state whether you are a civil engineer, how long you have been in the practice of your profession, and also what experience you have had in contracting; that is, covering what period"? Mr. Bates. I am a civil engineer, coming from the Tale Scientific School; have been engaged upon the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, and afterwards upon nearly all the transcontinental lines during their construction since 1.S78, acting both as an engineer and subsequently as a contractor for a considerable portion of the actual work of construc- tion in California, Oregon, and Washington. Latterly I have been en- gaged for the Mississippi Eiver Commission in the construction of a very large dredging plant which has just been finished, which upon the final official test has demonstrated its capacity of 0,000 cubic yards per hour on ordinary river sand excavated from the bar and thrown a dis- tance of 1,000 feet through a pipe line. Its record is something like ten times the record achieved in the world before, and is, ])erhaps, unique in Government annals, in that I have given in the results achieved four times beyond that which I guaranteed to do. The work that this machine does is of si^ecial significance in refer- ence to the Nicaragua Canal, because it embodies in itself power that is greater than that of all the machines and men and appliances which were gathered by Lesseps at Panama, and it is equivalent in its work 46 NICARAGUA CANAL. to more tban an army of 00,000 men could do if they were given a shovel and wheelbarrow to take the sand a distance of a quarter of a mile as she is sending it. In addition to that, upon the Chicago Drainage Canal I have had much more than the ordinary facilities aliorded by the chief engineer and trustees of the sanitary district, as well as by the successful contractors, who are my i)ersonal friends, and all of them are intensely interested in this Nicaragua project to know what are the most modern appliances for the actual execution of such work as the Nicaragua Canal, and I «'ill say that those men are the men above all others who are qualified to say what it will cost to build the Nicaragua Canal, They are the men who do the thing, not those who make the preliminary plans. There has been upon tlie Chicago Drainage Canal a survival of the fittest, and there are now five or six men or firms who have been eminently successful in designing the best apparatus lor executing their work and in making a profit at the lowest canal prices which have ever obtained in any country, and I would suggest, if it be desired by the committee, that I will give them the names, which I will recite, of men whom I consider, from the experience I have had, as experts qualified to give the very best information upon the actual work of construction that is contemplated in the canal. The Chairman. Will you give some of those names just there? Mr. Bates. I would give the name of Mr. Brown, of the Brown Hoist Company, of Cleveland, Ohio, and the Lidgerwood Manufacturing Com- pany, of New York, as being especially skilled in the transportation of spoil from the excavation into a given spoil bank ; I would give the name of the Kepauno Chemical Company, whose ofiice is in Chicago, as the best experts upon powder in this country, because they have furnished all the powder amounting to many tons of dynamite daily upon the canal. I would give the name of E. D. Smith & Co., of Philadelphia and Chi- cago, and of Mason, Hoge & Co., of Eomeo; also the name of Mac Ar- thur Bros. t& Co., of Chicago, and Christie & Lowe, of Chicago, as men who have been x)reeminently successful of all men who have taken a great interest in this canal, and who, I believe, would respond to an invitation to appear before the committee. I would also include the name of Lyman E. Cooley, of Chicago. Speaking from the dredging standpoint, I would say that there are 40,000,000 yards of dredging upon the Nicaragua Canal and in the har- bor of Greytown, and in the sand formation so far as it goes up toward the first lock, and in the harbor of Brito, and machines of the type wliich 1 have photographs of here and have myself operated and designed are capable of executing the work at a very great profit at the prices mentioned in the report of Mr. Menocal, and that with these machines the construction company could do the work for but a small jiercentage of these actual estimates. The work upon the Drainage Canal at Chicago has shown that for the different kinds of work differ- ent apparatus is necessary, and I would draw a special parallel between the Drainage Canal and the work upon the Nicaragua Canal lying between Lake Nicaragua and Brito. The average cut is about the same, except the prism of the Chicago canal is greater than that con- tem])lated at the other point; but the actual type of machines which operate at Chicago and have been so successful would be particularly applicable to the division between the lake and the Pacific Ocean. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How about the rock cut"? Mr. Bates. Speaking about the rock cut and organization, I would say, as contractors, there would be two ways of approaching the problem, either taking the surveys and borings and everything the Nicaragua NICARAGUA CANAL. 47 Canal Company have got and actually seeing the ground and forming a syndicate which would make a price, or the caual could really be built cheaper probably if the harbor at Greytown and railroad up to the Ochoa dam and the railroad to the coast were first constructed. Our experience upon the canal has demonstrated tliat the two lines of rail- road, the Chicago Northern and the Santa Fe, running on either side of the canal, have been of inestimable service, and if the contractors had those conditions given and the line was divided into sections there are a large nuinber of firms in this country of experience who would be glad to put in their figures upon a fair basis, and I Avill say that the problem of the divide cut and the excavation of material, requiring powder, drills, and transportation, could hardly be committed to hands which would solve the problem better of cheapness than to the very men Avho have handled the rockwork on the Chicago Drainage Canal, which in the aggregate is really greater than upon the Nicaragua. Mr. UooLiTTLE. How about the appliances that have been made use of at Chicago for handling material in the rock cuts? Mr. Bates. I have here a number of photographs [exhibiting same]; for instance, there is one which shows what is known as the Brown cantilever hoist. This is a novel apparatus, built especially for the canal, that has built what they call in Chicago the cantilever mountains. This machine actually cost probably not to exceed $14,000 or $15,000, and the Brown Hoist Comj)any have been able to make contracts to furnish these machines themselves, and received as compensation for the removal of material from the excavation after it had been loaded on the skips 15 cents per cubic yard. It is my belief, from personal investigation, the actual cost to the company is not to exceed 5 cents per cubic yard for taking the material from the bottom of a 40-foot excavation and carrying it 300 feet and putting it in the spoil bank. I have here another form of transporting apparatus, which is known as the Lidgerwood Overhead Cable Way. Tliat costs a little less than the Brown hoist, and has about the same cost of operation, per- haps a little more, but it would be especially advantageous in many situations upon the Nicaragua Canal. Mr. DooLiTTLE. For what purpose is this last api^liance? Mr. Bates. That is for taking out rock from the excavation and putting it in the spoil bank. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How far can it be carried in that way by the Lidgerwood machine"? Mr. Bates. I think there will be no trouble about the distance o, transportation. This, you understand, is a wire-rope tramway that will transport a great distance, but in this special form it would i)rob- ably not be advantageous to carry it more than 1,000 feet. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What would you say about the use of that machine in the rock cut and at Ochoa dam for removal of the material and the handling of it there*? Mt. Bates. Without going very definitely into it, I might say material from the divide cut could be carried on this railroad to the vicinity of Ochoa dam, and it might be advantageous from one standpoint of the contractor to use the overhead cable way in putting the material into the dam. But this has to be said, that every contractor who might have a proposition to take it would be very likely to solve it in his own different way, and the most peculiar thing, almost, in the canal has been that every man who had a section there has evolved a different method of handling and excavating his material, and each one of them has been novel and each has been successful. There is a form of derrick 48 NICARAGUA CANAL. [exhibiting photograph] used on the canal which is a pivoted derrick, with long arms swinging around and around. There is another one, showing tlie way the cantilever reaches over into the excavation. Mr. NooNAN. When you take the material excavated to the place where 3 ou desire to make a dam, what process do you have of putting that in position to make it hold the water? Mr. Bates. As I understand, the process at the Ochoa dam is that they proi)ose to put in a loose- rock dam, which would be literally putting in so much rock that, with the collecting of the sediment, or, jHuhaps, the putting in of a core, it would prevent the filtration of water through it. Mr. NooNAN. As an expert, do you approve of that mode? Mr. Bates. I think that is the very best way to solve that problem. I have seen in California, for instance, what we call a sweet-water dam — masonry dam, with the arch toward the pressure — but that would not be feasible at Ochoa, and thej^ have got there rock so available that I think there is not any question but what they can make a perfect suc- cess of it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. It is only a question of suflicient material being deposited there, I suppose? Mr. Bates. Yes. Mr. Noonan. I have heard it claimed by some that this mode of de[)Ositing stone and earth is a most perfect plan at the present day. Mr. Bates. Well, for that particular purpose I think it would be. Now, there is another form [exhibiting photograph]. Here is one with a blast going on, and here is a photograph of one of the hydraulic dredges which are engaged on the canal, similar to the form I have mentioned on the Mississippi, except it is smaller. Here is a larger photograph showing this new dredge that has been built for the Missis- sippi Kiver Commission, and here again is a detailed plan of the same. I will say the Drainage Canal contains five-sevenths of the total exca- vation to be made at Nicaragua. The Chairman. What will be the total cost of this excavation on this Chicago Drainage Canal? Mr. Bates. I think the last figures reached something like a total cost of the canal, including right of way, about $28,000,000. My impres- sion is the right of way and other expenses have amounted to $3,000,000 or $4,000,000 of that sum. Mr. Doolittle. What is the depth of it at the bottom and at the top? Mr. Bates. On the earth sections of the canal, which extend about 12 miles out from the beginning, the bottom width is to be 210 feet, and that width also extending through the glacial drift section, which goes on about 10 miles farther. In the rock section the slope of the canal is increased a little, and that admits of narrowing the prism of the canal. It is 160 feet wide on the bottom, with nearly vertical slopes. Those slopes may be vertical there, because the rock is lime- stone rock, and in the rock section the first process is clearing the ground of obstructions and starting the channeling machines. Those channeling machines cut a groove representing either side of the canal II feet deep, and then the drills, run by compressed air or by steam, are put to work upon the face, and the material is broken up so it can be loaded on the skips of the cantalevers, or the overhead cable way, or any other method which is adopted for transporting the material. Mr. Doolittle. What is the length of the Drainage Canal? Mr. Bates. The total length is about 30 miles. The Chairman. And the depth? NICARAGUA CANAL. 49 Mr. Bates. The depth of water will be 26 feet and the average cut may be said to be about 40 to 42 feet deep, which is about the same as the cut from the lake to the Pacific Ocean iu jSTicaragua, or just about the same. These photographs also show the masonry walls which have been put up along some sections where the glacial drifts or alluvial deposits overlie the solid rock. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Have you ever handled igneous rock ? Mr. Bates. Yes. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And know of the difficulties attending that sort ot work, and the difficulties attending the handling of limestone rock on this Drainage Canal? Mr. Bates. Yes. I can best compare that with the work on the Col- umbia liiver, where I was engaged in 1881 on work for the Oregon Navi- gation Company, and when we first began nobody offered to do it for less than $3 a yard, but after the construction began we found we were able to handle the rock under railway conditions, the igneous rock, or basalt, as we called it out there, at $1.£0 per cubic yard. I would like to have all the rock I could excavate on railway work at that price. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What has been the cost of handling the limestone rock on the Drainage Canal? Mr. Bates. The actual cost of handling the limestone rock has not been to exceed 50 cents i^er cubic yard, and that includes the whole work. Of course, there have been some contractors who spent more money on it, because they did not rise to the occasion as the successful men did. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Would you say, from the descriptions you have in tliese reports of the rock in the rock cut at Nicaragua, that the same appliances could be made use of and the same labor, and that the cost would be greatly increased necessarily, or otherwise? Mr. Bates. I would express the opinion that Mr. Menocal's estimates are adequate for the handling of any material on the canal, with a fair profit to the contractor. The Chairman. Would you be willing to take a contract for the whole canal at the estimates of Mr. Menocal? Mr. Bates. Yes; and I should do so with the belief that I would make a very considerable profit out of it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do you believe that a force could be organized here within the country to complete the work according to those plans and S])ecifications, after having gone over them thoroughly as you have, within this estimate — I mean to take the work up right now and carry it on? Mr. Bates. I am thoroughly satisfied it could be done. I would like to add from the standpoint of a practical property owuer on the Pacific Coast that, knowing the condition of my property and that of my friends out there and being thoroughly familiar with the agricultural and timber resources of the country and the conditions that the people are in out there, I think that there is not a man from San Diego to Puget Sound but: who feels that the Nicaragua Canal will be his salva- tiou, and from a railroad standpoint I think that everyone who is familiar with what we call the California boom, and we recollect that we were able to go from the Mississipi)i Valley to San Francisco at from $5 to $10 railroad fare, and that the railroads in California were never more prosperous than they were from the large local business which developed from the iiopulation of 200,000 people who went in under that excitement, and with the assured construction of the Nicaragua Canal there would be inaugurated a new era for the Pacific Coast which N C 4 50 NICAKAGUA CANAL. would very largely increase the earnings, especially the local earnings, of every railroad company on the coast, and while there might be gross freights talcen in large amounts through the canal there would be a much vaster tonnage and very much larger amount of passenger earn- ings, resulting from the increase of prosperity and population on the Pacific Coast, to the railroads than they can ever hope to secure under present conditions. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I would like to ask you if the Nicaragua Canal has been a subject of conversation between yourself and other successful men on the Chicago Drainage Canal, and about the judgment of those men as expressed in those talks you have had with them concerning the practicability of that and the feasibility of it, Mr. Bates. I will say I have often talked with the gentlemen whom I have named here as contractors on the line, and that they are all of them familiar with the literature and reports that have been published, and they would like to be able to be part of the construction of the Nicaragua Canal, just as they have been part of the success of the Chi- cago Drainage Canal, They are men who have got invested in plants upon the canal now upward of $3,000,000, and they have been under bonds to the sanitary canal to a similar amount. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I wish you would here state whether a portion oi that plant could be made use of profitably at Nicaragua. Mr. Bates. I think there are some portions of the plant on the Drainage Canal whi(!h could be used to advantage at Nicaragua, but, on the other hand, there are little parts of it which have been worn out in the service and which it would not pay to transport to a new point; but, further, the most valuable thing in reference to it has been that they have evolved methods of knowing how to do the thing the cheapest. Mr. Chairman, I will leave these photographs and maps here, so that other members of the committee will have an opportunity to look at them if they so desire. Thereupon the committee adjourned. Committee on Interstate and Foeeign Commerce, WasMngton, D. C, Saturday, Ajyril 11, 1896. The committee met at 10,30 a. m. for the purpose of continuing hear- ings on the question of the Nicaragua Canal. STATEMENT OF MR. A. G. MENOCAL. OF THE NAVY DEPARTMENT. Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee: I have pre- pared a statement in which I propose to answer some of the criticisms which have been made against the Nicaragua Canal. I am unable to read it, as I am suffering from bronchitis, and I shall have to ask that the paper be read by some member of the committee, or by a gentleman present who is familiar with the geographical names in Nicaragua. If you Avill allow this gentleman to read it, I will answer any questions which any member of the committee may desire to ask as the reading is proceeded with. Mr. DOOLITTLE. This is a paper which has been prepared compre- hensively, and it can be read, if the members desire to have it; but perhaps we would prefer to have the statement printed, and hear Mr. Menocal in regard to the work. NICARAGUA CANAL. 51 Mr. Patterson. I would rather that the paper were left to be inserted in the notes, and printed, and that Mr. Menocal take a seat at the table and let us have a table talk, as it were. Tlie chairman can draw out the information Avhich we desire by questions. The Chairman. How long have you been connected with this enter- prise? Mr. Menooal. Since 1872. The Chairman. What portion of that time have you spent in Nica- ragua in the vicinity of the line of the canal? Mr. Menocal. In the aggregate, more than six years. I have been in Nicaragua fifteen or sixteen times, and have remained there six months to a year at a time. I have spent on the line of the canal and its surroundings about six years. The" Chairman. During the time of your residence there, what has been your observation as to the precipitation and volume of water discharged from the lake? Mr. Menocal. I have made observations as to the rainfall and discharge of the streams and other meteorological conditions. The Chairman. Your observations have enabled you to understand every class of phenomena affecting the canal? Mr. Menocal. Entirely. I do not know that I have a knowledge of what is termed the regimen of the rivers, but I have the maximum and minimum of the rainfall and the floods for a number of years. By observation I have arrived at conclusions in regard to that, especially in Nicaragua, where the rainfall varies. The rainfall changes over 100 inches from one year to another, and in some places it changes as much as 200 inches in a distance of country not more than 200 miles in area. In order to arrive at the extent or estimate of rainfall, observations must be carried on for a long number of years, and even tlien the observations for a series of years may be entirely upset by the observa- tions of another series of years. The Chairman. Have those observations been preserved? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; they have during the time that I was there. They have not been preserved for an uninterrupted series of years, as they should have been, because we have not remained in the country permanently; but during the time I was there I made observations regularly. The Chairman. Were they sufficient? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; to arrive at an approximate of the floods of all the rivers and of the lake. What I have done has been to estimate the maximum from observations and then to duplicate them, and I base the work proposed for the canal on those figures. The Chairman. The minimum rainfall seems to be twice as great as the maximum? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; in Grey Town the precipitation is as much as 29G inches. That was according to daily observations made during three years. Mr. Joy. Do you mean a rainfall of 296 inches in one year? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. It varies very much. There is no condition of dry or wet season on the Atlantic coast. It rains most all the year through, and every day, and for that reason the rainfall is usually great. West of the lake the conditions are different. The rainfall is less, and the period of dry and wet season runs each about six months in the year, with an occasional rain every two or three days in the rainy season. As you approach the Atlantic coast the rainfall increases gradually, and from 16 to 20 miles from Grey town on the coast the 52 . NICARAGUA CANAL. rainfall increases very nuicli. In Greytown we have observed rainfall of as much as 296 inches in one year. The largest flood which has been observed in the San Jnan River was 42,000 cubic feet per second. In estimating" weirs and sluices I have increased that volume 50 per cent, estimating the maximum flood at 03,000 cubic feet per second. I double that in providing for weirs and sluice discharge, and provide for 125,000 cubic feet per second. The board of engineers base their estimate of the maximum at 150,000 cubic feet per second. I regard that as grossly exaggerated, but it is only a question of weirs. If 125,000 feet, for which I have estimated, is not sutticient, let us jirovide for 150,000 cubic feet. It is only a com- paratively small increase of cost. The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in your profession as an enginer? Mr. Menocal. Since 1862. The Chairman. Have you been in the Navy during that time? Mr. Menocal. I have been in the Navy since 1872. I graduated from the Polytechnic School in Troy, N. Y., in 1862, and have been engaged in my profession ever since. The Chairman. How long have you been connected with the work on this canal ? Mr. Menocal. Since March, 1872; over twenty-four years. The Chairman. What relation have you to it now? Mr. Menocal. I do not know that I have any close relation, any more than I have been chief engineer of the company. I made the surveys through Nicaragua and Panama as chief engineer, the Govern- ment having sent me. The Chairman. Are you a stockholder in the canal? Mr. Menocal. I have a small interest. I hold some stock. It is only a little which I procured when the company was short of funds, and I contributed some money to help it along. The Chairman. Has the work done by the Canal Company in the furtherance of its enterprise been done under your supervision? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Has this work been done upon your estimates, and within the estimates made by you? Mr. Menocal. It has been done inside my estimates. I estimated the railroad at $60,000 per mile, and the road was built by contract for $32,000 per mile. I estimated the telegraph line at $400 per mile, and it was built for less. The clearing of the line was done for less than the estimate, and the same is true of other work. The Chairman. Have you knowledge of what amount of money has been actually expended? Mr. Menocal. I know what the work cost, and I know the condition of it now. I was in Nicaragna with the board of engineers. The Chairman. What work has been done? Mr. Menocax. We have built 1,000 feet of breakwater; we have dredged a mile of the canal, and cleared the land of trees and rubbish and com])leted surveys; we have made borings, put up a number of buildings and wharves; we have dredged some in the harbor of Grey- ton, and built 125 miles of telegraph line; we have i)ut up machine shops, carpenter shops, and things like that. Tlie CiiAiifMAN. Has any Avork been done in the canal proper? Mr. Menocal. We have built about a mile of the canal to the depth of 17 feet. The Chairman. When was this work done? NICARAGUA CANAL. 53 Mr. Menocal. In 1880 to 1891. The Chairman. What is the condition of that work now? Mr. Menocal. I want to say that we have also built 12 miles of rail- road from Greytown toward the interior. In regard to the condition of the work, it is this: The canal lias been excavated througli swamps a mile from Greytown, and is in the same condition in which it was left when the work stopped in 1891. The banks are vertical; the material deposited remains the same as when the work was suspended; there have been no slides in the excavation or their banks; the railroad is in excellent condition with the exception that the ties are badly rotted. The ties were pine imported from the United States. The timber of Nicaragua is nnflt for railroad ties. Those ties were exported from the United States, and were creosoted, but the creosoting was very imper- fectly done, so that they have rotted out. Otherwise, the railroad is in good condition. The banks are about the same as when the work was suspended. The embankments are perfect, and tlie rails show very little oxidation. The bridges are in excellent condition, and, to my great surprise, we found that we had no trouble in going over the line, being pulled by men in hand cart. The Chairman. When you were there this last summer, did you use the road by trains? Mr. Menocal. IsTot by locomotives. We went over the road in hand cars, propelled by men, making about 8 miles an hour. The reason why the locomotive was not used was on account of the condition of the ties. The Chairman. What is the condition of the breakwater? Mr. Menocal. It is bad. It was a temporary structure built of creo- soted piles, and it was to be made of stone into deep water. It was intended to fill it with stone as soon as the railroad was built to the rock excavation ; but the work was suspended before the railroad was carried to the rock excavation, and this breakwater was attacked by the teredo, so that it is in a very bad condition. During the time the breakwater was in good condition, the channel on the lee side was main- tained to the depth of 14 feet, so that the ocean steamers came into the harbor. The Chairman. When the breakwater is built, do you expect that the flowage of water from the river will scour the channel? Mr. INIenocal. No, sir. The plan is not based upon that principle. The harbor is not closed through sediment brought down by the river directly to the harbor, but by the shifting of the sands — by the action of the waves striking the beach at an angle of about 45 degrees. The sand will accumulate to the eastward of the breakwater. We will then be able to dredge the channel, and as the supply of sand is stopped there will be nothing to fill the channel afterwards. The Chairman. Can you give to the committee an approximate estimate of the actual expenditure of money required in this enter- prise — that is, can you give us the fiscal estimates to carry it forward? Mr. Menocal. Your question is, how much will be required to be spent to build it. I have nothing to do with the financial affairs of the company. I know that the company has spent between $3,000,000 and $4,000,000. The Chairman. Do you mean that between 13,000,000 and $4,000,000 have been actually expended on the work? Mr. Menocal. I am speaking of the work. I do not know what expenditure the company has made upon other things. In Nicaragua the work they have done has amounted to between $3,000,000 and $4,000,000. 54 NICARAGUA CANAL, The Chairman. Does that include the dredges and other machinery? Mr. Menocal. It includes the plant, the dredges, the locomotives, and the material on hand when the work was suspended. The Chairman. What would be your estimate of the present actual value of the work which has been done in actual construction? Mr. Menocal. 1 would prefer not to give that, because I have made no careful estimate lately, and whatever I would say might be far from the mark. The Chairman. Is there any considerable portion of the work that could be made available, or which it would be economical to use? Mr. Menocal. A part of it could be used. The dredges are not in that condition to be put at work at present, but two of the four dredges could be used. The locomotives are in good condition. They have been well housed, and certainly three of them are in good condition. The buildings are in extraordinary good condition, considering the way they have been neglected. The foundations are good, and the wood- work is sound. All the railroad is good, with the exception of the ties. The embankments are well preserved, and the rails are in fair condi- tion. The telegraph line is badly maintained. It would have to be cleared and poles would have to be erected. The ground work of the telegra])h is good. The Chairman. In view of the improvements which have been made in dredging machines, would it be economical for the company to use the old machines! Mr. Menocal. I think it would not be — not for the work which has been estiuuited. I think it would be more economical to use more improved machines. Some of the dredges there could be of service for certain i)urposes. The Chairman. What is the capacity of those dredges'? Mr. Menocal. Ten thousand cubic yards each per day of twenty hours. Mr. Doolittle. You work twenty-four hours'? Mr. Menocal. Yes ; but there is some time lost in cleaning boilers and making slight repairs. We have never had more than two of the dredges at work. The company did not have the whole plant at work at any one time. We did not have a sufBcient number of scows, and we did not have enough money and material to employ the necessary force. Tlie company was in expectation of more funds, but by reason of financial diflicnlties they were prevented from doing the work prop- erly and economically. The Chairman. What is your estimate of the dredging to be done in the harbor at Grey town and on the other side? Mr. Menocal. I think all the dredging, speaking approximately from memory, would amount to about 25,000,000 cubic yards. The C/HAIrman. Are you familiar with the modern Bates dredge? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. I have not seen that dredge at work, but I have seen descriptions of the dredge. The Chairman. In what portion of the canal could that dredge be used? Mr. Menocal. All the material could be removed with that dredge. Mr. Bennett. At what cost per cubic yard? Mr. Menocal. It w^ould not cost more than 6 or 8 cents per cubic yard. They are doing very extensive dredging at the harbor in Mobile, and have removed vast quantities of material and dumped it G miles out at sea for 7 cents per cubic yard, and the contractor seems to be doing welL NICARAGUA CANAL. 55 The Chafrman. When you make an estimate of 25,000,000 cubic yards, does that include all the dredging for the canal? Mr. Menocal. It is all the dredging of the canal, the lake, the river, and harbor. The Chairman. If you were to become the contractor for that whole work, how much would you diminish your bid by reason of the work already done? Mr. Menocal. I would diminish it by a considerable amount — 50 per cent, I should say. The Chairman. Would it be worth so much as that? Mr. Menocal. I think it would, if properly utilized. The Chairman. Were you the agent of the company at the time the concessions were given ? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; there was no company then. The Chairman. State what was done. Mr. Menocal. I had made surveys in Nicaragua, became convinced of the practicability of the scheme, and the gentlemen interested in the matter were also believers in the construction of the canal, and they organized a preliminary company, if a company can b(5 so called. It was nothing but an association. A few of the gentlemiMi met and asked if I would like to go to Mcaragua and get concessions for the building of a canal. I volunteered to do it. I had been in the country and knew the officials. I went to Nicaragua and got these concessions, and the gentlemen who were interested in the scheme contributed the money for this purpose. When I got to Nicaragua I had no great diffi- culty in obtaining the concession, and when I came back I turned it over to them. That was my connection with it. One of the conditions was that final surveys should be completed within eighteen months from the date of the concession. I was asked by the association of gentlemen to go to Nicaragua and make final locations, and I did so, and plans were submitted in time. Afterwards I was asked to go to Costa Eica and get similar concessions to those granted by Nicaragua, and I did so, and turned them over to these gen- tlemen. I did all this without compensation, except the interest I had in seeing the canal built, believing in it as an engineering proposition. The Chairman. Those concessions were made in the form of con- tracts, were they? Mr. Menocal. They were in the form of contracts between the Gov- ernment of Nicaragua and this association of gentlemen, with the power on the part of the association to transfer the concessions to a company or organization. When the company was subsequently organized the concessions were transferred to the company. The Chairman. What provision is there, if any, in that construction grant prohibiting transfer to a Government? Mr. Menocal. There is such a provision — that it was not to be transferred to any Government as a whole. Mr. Bennett. By whom was that inserted? Mr. Menocal. By the Government of Nicaragua. That clause was in all the concessions which the Government had made to other parties, and it was inserted in this one. The Chairman. Would there be any violati(»u of the terms of the concession if this association of gentlemen should make an arrange- ment whereby the Government would obtain control through owning the majority of the stock? Mr. Menocal. I do not think so. I do not see how there can be, because the company would have the right to sell its stock in the 56 NICARAGUA CANAL. market to such parties as wanted to buy, whether they were agents of the (loverument or private individuals. The concession does not pro- hibit the company from selHng- its stock to the best bidder. The Chaikman. That would be one method by which the company could transfer it, perhaps? Mr. Menocal. The concession need not be transferred. The com- pany will be in existence, and the majority of the shareholders will control that company, and if the Government holds a majority of the stock, it owns the concession without its being transferred. That is my idea. I see no violation of the concession, and I may say that the officials in Nicaragua have taken the same view. The Chairman. Have you any objection to stating what considera- tion in money was given for that concession'? Mr. Menocal. The Government of Nicaragua was paid $100,000. Fifty thousand dollars was paid to the Government for the right of way west of the lake. The Chaiiiman. Was any money consideration paid to Costa Rica? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. There passed through my hands $100,000 of American gold which was paid to the Government of Nicaragua. If anything else has been paid, I am not aware of it. This money was paid at the time the concessions were made. The Chairman. What other obligations were assumed with refer- ence to giving stock? Mr. Menocal. The Government of Nicaragua was to receive G per cent, and the Government of Costa Eica one-half of that, or 3 per cent. The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of the liabilities of the present company? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; none whatever. My connection with the company is entirely professional. When they have wanted my services as an engineer I have always been willing, and have been able, so far, to assist them. I have nothing to do with the negotiations of the com- pany, and could not tell you now how the stock stands. In fact I have no time for that. Tlie Chairman. You have no knowledge as to the stockholders or as to the finances? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. I am not a stockholder as a speculator. I am not acting as an investor. My wife had a little money, and when the company was in financial straits we init it in. Mr. Patterson. During all this i)eriod you were an officer of the United States? Mr. Menocal. I was; and I was given permission by the Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Whitney, to accept the position of chief engineer of the company — if you refer to the time of the construction and to the concessions. Mr. Patterson. During this whole service. Mr. Menocal. All my service has been given to the company under orders from the Government. Mr. Patterson. During that time you were in the service of the Government? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. I have made surveys as the chief engineer and as the head of a surveying expedition as an officer of the Govern- ment. I was ordered there to do this work. Mr. Patterson. How long have you been an officer of the Govern- ment? Mr. Menocal. Since 1872 in the Navy. Whenever I have gone to Nicaragua to do anything I have done so with the special permission NICARAGUA CANAL. 57 of the Government to engage myself in that work, knowing exactly for what purpose I was sent, and I have with nie an indorsement on my application from Secretary Whitney stating the great importance to the people of the United States of this enterprise, and that it was the least the Government could do to give me this leave in order that my services could be given to the enterprise. Mr. Bennett, dsually in engineering work of this character it is done in sections, and the cost of each section is estimated*? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. Mr. Bennett. Which section of the canal is most expensive? Mr. Menocal. The most expensive section is the deep excavation 21 miles, nearly 3 miles— a little over 15,000 feet. That represents 21 per cent of the cost of the whole. Mr. Bennett. From the harbor at Greytown, is that one section? Mr. Menocal. That is one section, as far as the deep cut; then to the river is another section; then from the river to the lake is another section. The fourth section is between the lake and the Paciiic Ocean. Mr. Bennett. The section from Greytown is the most expensive? Mr. Menocal. Yes. Mr. Bennett. At what do you estimate the cost of the Ochoa dam? Mr. Menocal. Inside of $2,000,000. Mr. Bennett. What do you estimate the cost of the middle section? Mr. Menocal. The deep cut? It is difticult to remember those fig- ures, but about $13,000,000, I should think, speaking from memory. Mr. Bennett. At what do you estimate the cost of the section between Greytown and the deep cut? Mr, Menocal. The canal, locks and all, would cost about $10,000,000. Mr. Bennett. Then you go over to the other side of the lake, where there are two dams and wasteweir and the Ochoa dam? Mr. Menocal. There is only one weir. Weirs are not expensive. They can be built on the top of the hill on the solid foundation, and would require only strengthening. Mr. Bennett. From the deep cut to the other side are there no espe- cial engineering difticulties to overcome? Mr. Menocal. There is no serious engineering work in the whole line of the canal, any more than we meet with every day. Tlie Ochoa dam is a heavy piece of work. It is not regarded as a serious under- taking, considering modern methods. Mr. Bennett. From the deep cut to the other side of the lake there is no practical difficulty, nothing to be done but dredging? Mr. Menocal. Dredging the lake and river. Between the lake and the Pacific the excavations are small — 70 feet to the bottom of the canal and 12 feet to the level of the canal. Mr. Bennett. What would be your estimate of construction from the lake to the Pacific coast ? Mr. Menocal. The whole section is estimated at $14,000,000. Mr. Sherman. Is it not true that the cost of every portion of the work of this canal has, by reason of the invention of modern machinery, been decreased since you made your estimate? Mr. Menocal. Very much so. Our estimates were nearly double what similar work has been done for in this country since that time. Mr. Bennett. You have only gotten up to $40,000,000 for the work in the figures you have given me. Mr. Menocal. There is other detailed work of importance, such as the harbor and breakwater. The full estimate is $05,000,000. 58 NICAEAGUA CANAL. Mr. Bennett. Do you thiuk it can be completed for $65,000,000? Mr. Menocal. It can be completed inside of $70,000,000, and built of tlie dimensions proposed — a ship canal larger than any in the world to-day. Mr. Bennett. To what depth of water? Mr. Menocal. Thirty feet throughout, except at the level of the sea, where I have estimated only 28 feet, which gives a proper depth of water. The reason the estimate was limited to that was because that is all the traffic requires, and it can be increased to a greater depth if needed. But I do not think it will be needed. There is no ship canal to-day over 28 feet deep. Mr. Joy. What is the depth of the Suez Canal? Mr. Menocal. Twenty-six feet. It was 22 feet, but it has been grad- ually deepened. Perlmps now it is 24 feet throughout. We have esti- mated a depth of 28 feet at the level of the sea, and it can be dredged and made deeper later on, if necessary, when the traffic requires it. Except as to the dredging in the river, tlie canal is 30 feet in depth. To increase the dei)tli afterwards would not be expensive. Mr. Joy. It has been stated publicly that during the greater part of the year there is a calm existing on both sides of the canal. Mr. Menocal. That is not the case. There is a constant breeze from Greytown to Brito. Tlie trade winds never fail in Greytown, nor on the Pacific Coast. They blow right through. Tlie breeze was so strong, and blew so steadily off shore, that we found it difficult to make surveys, for fear of our boats being capsized. ' Mr. Patterson. Did you accompany the Commission which recently visited the site of this canal? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. Mr. Patterson. I would like you to state somewhat in detail what opportunities those gentlemen liad for observation and reaching correct conclusions, and wherein they differ from you in their estimates; and if so, why. Mr. Menocal. The Commission was in Nicaragua altogether forty days. Of these forty days, a total of two weeks, more or less, was spent in examining the canal route, or rather the canal route and vicinity. Some places they touched and others they did not. These gentlemen traveled by the most comfortable methods, either through the woods or along the roads, so that they were only two weeks examining the canal from the Atlantic to the Pacific coast. They were detained in Greytown both on the arrival and before leaving. The CnAiRMAN. Please state just what methods they used. Mr. Menocal. They arrived in Greytown and remained a week wait- ing for a steamer that was to bring certain outfit for the Commission. They had ordered this outfit, but the Commission arrived before the steamer containing the outfit arrived, and they waited a week for it. They then went up the river and had to transfer in the river from one steamer to another at two different points. They then came to the lake and went to Fort San Carlos. There is only one steamer on the lake, and when they arrived it was not there, and the Commission had to stay two days waiting for this steamer. In those three days they made a trip up the river running south, and they also took a river steamer and went out into the lake and took borings and soundings. They came back to Fort San Carlos and waited for the river steamer. When it arrived they got aboard and went to St. George, on the other side of the lake, where they landed their party and the Commissioners, and went to the capitol to visit the President. Next day, in the evening, NICARAGUA CANAL. 59 tliey arrived at Eivas, 3 miles distaut, from the lake and there they stayed two or three days hnntiug horses and other means of transporta- tion to g'o over the line of the caual. On the morning of the third day they left Eivas and Aveiit toward the Pacific Coast to a point 3 miles from Brito and passed the night. Up to this time nothing had been seen of the canal. On the following morning they went to Brito, leav- ing camp abont 7 o'clock a. m. Arri ving at Brito they stayed there, and the gentlemen had time to take baths and look aronnd a little. They then came back to the same camp, following more or less the line of the canal. The other days were spent in traveling. The line had been cleared for the Commission from one end to the other. Mr. Patterson. Were any borings made? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. 1 had instruments at all places to verify every- thing, and they had some also, bnt no surveys were made. They con- tinued in this way, traveling G or 7 miles a day to the lake, and then went to Eivas for transportation" across the lake. After they got across the lake, they went to Port San Carlos and spent a day waiting for connec- tions, and drifted down the river to Ochoa. At Oclioa they landed in the afternoon of one day abont 2 o'clock, and looked around a little, visited the ridge line and the region of the San Carlos basin south of Ochoa. They spent one day going and one day coming back. On the second day they arrived, and the next morning they started on their way across to Greytown. They were six days in that section. Mr. Patterson. If I understand you, no instruments were used except what you furnished. Mr. Menocal. Not by the Commission. Mr. Patterson. And my information further is that in locating the route of this canal by you every part of the line was examined and bored and that you knew exactly what its formation was, and the soil and every kind of material through which you must go in order to make the canal? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; I had taken 696 borings. Mr. Patterson. Nothing of that kind was done by this Commission ? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. Mr. Patterson. And they had no data, except what they got from you ? Mr. Menocal. They had nothing, except the data I furnished. I want to say this to remove misapprehension. I must say that they ran lines around Greytown while they were waiting. Only a part of our instruments were used. After they left Greytown they sent a party back to make a survey of the confluents of two rivers. I will point that out on the large map. As we were about leaving Greytown they sent some of the party to make this examination, and the result fully confirms what had been made previously by me. Mr. Patterson. There are two questions in that connection. Would it not be possible for a board of engineers who were in ])ossession of the maps and profiles, surveys, and all the data with which you are familiju? to have made this investigation and report as well in the privacy of an oflice in Washington as to make report on the cursory kind of examination and survey which they gave? Mr. Menocal. 1 think so. Mr. Patterson. They simply walked over the country there without aim and without any data further than you furnished? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. I had an assistant with me with all the lilans, and wherever we touched the line my assistant took the plans, p; ofiles, and borings, and T (billed their attention to it and asked them to e:j* amine the plans. 1 said: "1 v\'ant you to satisfy yourselves that 60 NICARAGUA CANAL. these plans are correct, and I want to sLow you where the borings were taken." I took them to places where the borings were made, and they saw the core of the rock and the lay of the ground. Mr. Pattekson. Does the difference between your estimate of the cost of this canal and the estimate of the Commission grow out of any defect or criticism of your work ? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. Mr. Patterson. Or does it involve additional work? Mr. Menocal. There is no criticism of the work, and yet there is some criticism of what they think the work ought to be. The board admits the practicability of the canal as proposed by the company, but they have i)roposed changes which tend to increase the cost, and which are entirely unnecessary. They say that the channel in the river should not be less than 250 feet wide, and in the lake it should not be less than 300. The company wanted to build a canal economically, which would accommodate the traffic of the world. They wanted to, at the same time, build it for such an amount of money as would pay a reasonable return uj^on the cai)ital invested. They intended that it could be enlarged when the traffic of the ocean required it. The Chairman. With the facilities the board had, how long would it have required to have verified all of your work? Mr. Menocal. Oh, that would have required several years' work and observations if they had attempted to verify the surveys and borings in detail. I told the Commissioners that the surveys and borings had all been carefully made; that I had an accurate record of them all; that a large number of men were employed in the work, and that I had engi- neers of experience to conduct the work. I was repeatedly told by them that they had no reason to doubt the accuracy of our surveys. I followed them step by step, with profiles and maps and plans, showing the results of the borings and surveys, and called their attention con- stantly to the different parts of the route, and very frequently invited them to verify those plans, maps, and surveys. It is said that we did not take borings enough at the site of the Oclioa Dam. I think we have. We have taken seventeen borings there, which show only two kinds of material, clay abutments and sand, in the bed of the river. We have penetrated sufficiently to satisfy us that a stone dam there is not i)racticable, except at enormous cost; that the building of such an expensive dam is unnecessary, and that other methods must be a]>plied in order to obtain the necessary results of impounding the water to the necessary elevation. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do you mean a masonry dam? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; that such a dam is commercially impracti- cable. That it could be built, but it would be enormously expensive. Knowing that and satisfying ourselves by the 17 borings at the site of the dam that there was no rock foundation, and that we had only clay hills as abutments and sand in the bed of the river, we arrived at another method for building the dam, which we regard as safer and cheaper, than a masonry dam, and the dam we propose I believe to be indestructible either by floods or earthquakes. This dam is very simple. Having strengthening abutments of clay hills on both sides of the river, the method proposed is merely to dump the stone obtained from that deep excavation into the bed of the river, giving the dam a very large base as com^jared to the height. That is to say, the height of the dam will be about CO feet above the bed of the river. I propose to give it a base of about 1,000 feet, composed of large rocks, weighing from 4 to 10 tons deposited iu the bed of the river, the voids to be NICARAGUA CANAL. 61 filled by smaller material, and then an embankment on the upper side of the dam of still smaller material, to make the dam tight, as required to impouud the waters of the river. Such a dam will leak, but our object is not to store water, but only to arrest the free flow so as to raise it to a certain elevation. When we have raised the water to that elevation our object is accomplished, and if a portion of the surplus waters per- colate through the dam there is no harm done. The dam will eventually become tight. This is inevitable by the silt of the river itself. This is a simple description of what we propose to do. We propose to build that dam contending with the flow of the river. In fact, I believe that the only safe way to build a dam is by contending with the flow of the river, so as to assist us in distributing this material until every stone and every pebble has found arresting place. The Commission has stated in its report that the dam is practicable, but that they propose some modifications; one of which I think is unneces- sary but extremely expensive, the other I think will lead to disaster if carried out. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is the current of the Sau Carlos of any assistance in this work? Mr. Menocal. It forms part of the San Juan itself, and we ignore the San Carlos, for the reason that it is already merged in the San Juan and becomes a part of the main river, the dam being 5 miles below the confluence of the two rivers. Mr. NooNAN. In reply to a question of Mr. Patterson you stated that those Commissioners could compile their report as well from the data which you have as by going over the ground. Don't you think there is some advantage in getting a contour of the country? Mr. Menocal. They did get the contour of the country. None of them had visited the tropics, I believe, and they got an idea of the country and shores. I believe none of them had been south of Key West, and everything was novel to them — the country and vegetation and animals and rivers. Everything was new to them, the rainfalls and the heat of the sun — all this was novel. Mr. NooNAN. If those men had experience, would it not give them some idea of the cost to travel as they did over the route i^roposed? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; I think so. Mr. Noon AN. Without actually surveying? Mr. JNIenocal. Yes, sir; I think so. Mr. KooNAN. That is, give them a safe conjecture in regard to it? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; observation, no matter how short the time, will enable one to arrive at conclusions that can not well be reached by other methods. Mr. ISTooNAN. My object in asking you this question was to have you qualify your answer to the question of Mr. Patterson. My question was what might be called a leading question. Mr. Menocal. I think this, that some of the examinations were very suj^erficial. I was si)eaking only of this particular case when I answered Mr. Patterson. I had only in mind the superficial examina- tion made by this board. In order to be materially assisted by the inspection of the ground the engineers ought to have been there in the rainy and dry seasons — to be there at difl'erent times of the year — as the-rainfall varies very much. An inspection of two weeks in either the rainy season or the dry season, or the season intermediate between the two, gives only a very superficial knowledge, which is misleading, because they jiL^lge from the conditions they have been able to observe in that short lengtli of time. This statement is verified by the great divergence of opinion between the members of the Board and practical 62 NICARAGUA CANAL. contractors, who had spent several months in Nicaragua both in the rainy- season and in the dry season. These gentlemen went there for the pur- pose of getting tlie necessary information to enable them to bid for the work, when the company was getting ready to commence the construc- tion, and they spent six or eight months — even more than that — in that country. They offered to build this railroad through the swamps, which is regarded as the most difficult part of the line, and over a portion of the hilly country also, to see how they could handle the men, how much it would cost them, and what work they could get out of the men. Con- tractors from Chicago and from California were there for quite a long- time, and they built this railroad, as I have said, for about one-half the estimated cost. These gentlemen, after gaining all this experience, are now ready to bid for the whole work of the canal inside of my estimate. Mr. Joy. You say they are ready to bid for this work inside your esthnatc'? Mr. jMenocal. Yes, sir; to build that canal, and these men know what they are talking about. They not only followed every boring we took, and followed the engineers and camped out with the engineers, but then looked into the question of how much work they could get out of a laborer, and volunteered to build that railroad for the cost, with 10 per cent to pay for the clerical work. Mr. Corliss. Do I understand you that the contractors are ready to take the contract for this entire work, according to your plan, inside of your estimate of $65,000,000? Mr. MioNocAL. Yes, sir. Mr. Bennett. Those gentlemen would be willing to appear before this committee? Mr, Menocal. Yes, sir; I think so. I have a letter from one of them now, saying that they are willing to take the contract inside of my estimates, for the different parts of the work; or, otherwise, they will take a contract to build the whole canal, bear the entire expense, and run all risks, inside of $100,000,000. Mr. Patterson. The thought I had was this: That while intelligent and educated gentlemen, engineers, might walk or ride through a country and form a general idea of its topography, yet such information, when it came to estimating the cost of a canal, its excavation and the material that would have to be excavated and the amount of the material and all that, is worth but very little. Mr. Menocal. Very little; yes, sir, and may be misleading. Mr. Patterson. And at last it must be based upon the actual sur- veys, the profiles, and data. Mr. Menocal. Our plans are so complete and perfect — and the Board had to admit that — that any engineer can get a perfect knowledge of the topography of the country by an inspection of these plans and charts. Every boring is marked. In the dee]) cut we have taken many borijigs, and at the sites of the locks, I think, 120 borings were made. It was almost unnecessary to bore as much as that, because the materials are uniform. Mr. Bennett. Have you a side elevation of the proposed canal? Mr. Menocal. I do not know that I have it here. I will see. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Before you proceed with that, allow me to ask one question. Please state about what length of time the engineers spent at the Ochoa dam, and tell about the examination that was made there, at the site of the dam. Mr. jNIenocal. Not any. They did not examine the site of the damj they passed by it. NICARAGUA CANAL. 63 Mr. Bennett. If tliey passed by such an important piece of work, estimated to cost millions of dollars, without investigating it, what would their investigation amount to? Mr. Menocal. I am not prepared to answer that. I only say they passed by there. I had fixed all their camps so that they would have an opportunity of examining the most important sites, and one of the camps was at the Ochoa Dam itself. They slei)t there two nights, and, as I said, they went one day to examine the adjacent hills. I had a camp here [exhibiting on map], and six days' i)rovisious, and a number of engineers. They arrived in the afternoon and looked around for half a mile or so and came back to the camp; the next morning they started for the San Carlos ridge line. I sent the boats here to bring them back [exhibiting on the map], and on the following day they found them here and brought them back, and they arrived at the camp about 4 o'clock in the afternoon. ISText morning they started to look over the line of the canal and never had any time for an examination of the site of the dam. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What examination did they make personally of the river from Ochoa to the lake — that is, as to the material? Mr. Menocal. They went up the river in a steamboat, traveling at night occasionally. In the daytime they could see the banks; at night nothing. Mr. DooLiTTLE. In this report, a considerable sum is added to your estimate on account of supposed rock excavation in the bed of the river. Mr. Menocal. That is due more especially to the larger dimensions proposed by the Board. They do not question our estimates so ftir as the quality of the material to be removed is concerned, although it is hinted here and there that the borings are not sufficient, but still they think that the material estimated as dredging is dredging and what I estimate as rock is rock. The fact is, that wherever there were indica- tions of rock I estimated it as all rock. In the river the width is esti- mated at 125 feet, as I said before, and the Board has increased that to 250 feet, and it is estimated at 300 i'eet in the bends of the river. They have also increased the cost of both the dredging and the rock excavation in the river considerably. The rock excavation has been raised from $3 a cubic yard to $5, and the dredging has been increased by about 50 per cent of my estimates. Mr. Wanger. They add $1,000,000 for hospital. Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; we had as many as 2,500 men employed in Nicaragua, and we built hospitals to accommodate all the sick in that length of time, and I believe the cost of the hospitals, outfit, and every- thing complete did not exceed $25,000. We were very highly compli- mented by those who visited the canal — English and American officers and engineers — upon our hospital arrangements. I think the hospital w^as as perfectly conducted and managed as any hospital is in any i^art of the world — not so luxurious as some, but we had a ]arge staff of ofli- cers and all the necessary supplies and comforts for the sick. It did not cost the company, I think, buildings and all, together with instru- ments and bedding, and all that, more than $40,000. I think that $200,000 will provide for all the hosiiitals and appliances thereto along the whole line of the canal. Of course, a great deal more can be spent if it is desired to put up luxurious buildings, as was done in Panama. There $4,000,000 were spent for this purpose alone. Mr. Joy. The Commission say that they deem the building of this dam impracticable on account of the dangerous foundation on which it would have to be built. What have you to say as to the foundation? Mr. Menocal. I think their conclusions, as you will see in the report, 64 NICARAGUA CANAL. are tbat the rock-fill dam is practical, but they have added a great deal on account of the methods they propose for strengthening the abut- ments. They have increased the estimate from $50,000 to $500,000, and have also increased the cost by $1,500,000, i)roviding for a series of sluices in the vicinity of the dam to get rid of the river during the construction of this mound. I call the dam a mound. That is what it is — inst a pile of rocks. On account of these sluices they have added $1,500,000. Mr. OoiiLiss. That would be a detriment. Mr. Menocal. I regard the estimate of $500,000 for strengthening the dam as a gross exaggeration; and I regard the other estimate of $1,500,000 to take away the flow of the river during the construction of the dam as dangerous and likely to lead to disaster. My proposition is to build this dam with the assistance of the river. Stones will be dumped, as many as are required, and the river will assist us in deposit- ing these stones, until every one of them has obtained a resting place. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Until a barrier, like one of nature's barriers, is created there. Mr. Menocal. Necessarily. We will continue dumping these stones, and the water will gradually rise, small material filling in the voids. As I have stated, the river itself will aid us in building this great mound across the river. While we are dumping these big rocks in the river, of course we are all the time contending with the fiow of the water, aiid when we have completed the dam we have controlled the element with which we have been contending. But, on the other hand, if you take away the river from this mound and build it free from the water, the result will be tbat when you bring the river back, and the water acts with a hydraulic head on the dam and the foundations, there will be a sudden settling of the mass. This will take place suddenly, instead of grad- ually. The mass of stone will sink, a portion be carried away, and the repairs would be very expensive. This is the main point upon which we mainly differ from the board. The board thinks a masonry dam will be better. It can not be brought within a reasonable cost, and I believe this rock-fill dam is the best and cheapest. Mr. Joy. Where is there to-day existing any dam of considerable dimensions similarly constructed to the dam proposed by you at Ochoa? Mr. Menocal. There are several in India thousands of feet in length and on sandy river beds, not across such an insignificant river as the San Juan, which is insignificant compared with the Ganges or other Indian rivers. The Ganges is a river of enormous fiow. Over some oi the dams in India over 1,000,000 cubic feet of water flow per second in times of flood, the water running in some cases 20 feet above the weirs. In Nicaragua it is estimated that the greatest flow of water over the dam will be 150,000 cubic feet per second, not much more than a tenth of the flow over the Indian dams; and yet these dams are built in a soft river bed, with soft soil banks. They have stood there for years; not as high as the Ochoa dam. It is only a question of proportion of dimensions. The highest of them in India is perhaps 22 feet. That is the highest I know of. In Nicaragua it will be a little over double that, with the advantage that in building the Nicaragua dam we have all the stone that is required. It is right there. It only has to be blasted and dumped in the river. Mr. Doolittle. How far from the dam is the stone? Mr. Menocal. About 12 miles. You could not get a better dumiiing place. ]Mr. Joy. At these points, where you pr()])()se to erect the locks, have your borings demonstrated that you can find a solid foundation? NICARAGUA CANAL. 65 Mr. Menocal. No question about tliat. There is not the least doubt about that. At the sites of some of the locks there were as many as a . hundred borings made. It is not rock foundation, but hard clay founda- tion, which is equivalent to soft rock — better, because it is perfectly water-tight. Mr. Corliss. Why, in your judgment, did the board feel it necessary to recommend a wider excavation in the river than that planned by yourself? Mr. Menocal. I do not know. Perhaps because the board was familiar with the canals connecting the Great Lakes, and with other similar canals. We propose a ship canal, through which there will pass only G, 8, or 10 ships a day. They probably had in view canals with which they were familiar. For example, there passed through the Sault Ste. Marie Canal, according to figures for the last season of 231 days, about 17,000,000 tonnage in that time, or at the rate of about 26,000,000 tons a year. The canal was open for navigation 231 days in the last year I have, in which time there ijassed through about 18,000 vessels, steam- ers, tugs, ships, scows, etc. There is such comj)etition on the tonnage that passes through that canal that every minute and every mile counts. Passing to the Nicaragua Canal, the traffic there will probably not exceed 10,000,000 tons. The company has never estimated that much or about 7 or 8 ships a day, 2,500 tons average capacity. Instead of sav- ing 50 or 100 miles by the Nicaragua Canal, as is the case with these Great Lakes canals in some cases, there will be a saving of hundreds and thousands of miles, and therefore the loss of a few hours or a few days plays no part whatever in the question of the trip from one point to another. So you see the great difference between the one and the other. Now, these gentlemen in considering the Nicaragua Canal had in mind the conditions existing in connection with the canals at the Great Lakes. The conditions are entirely different. There is no ship canal to-day that has the dimensions we propose for the Nicaragua Canal. The Suez Canal to-day is not 100 feet wide throughout the whole length. Lately they have commenced to enlarge it, and it is 112 feet for some of its length. The Manchester Canal has just been comiileted with a width of 120 feet; the Kiel Canal 85 feet. We have proposed 125 feet in the river, 150 feet in the lake, and 100 feet in the rock excavation. This is to be wider than the Kiel Canal and the Suez Canal. The Chairman. Would there not be this difference in the canals you have mentioned : They have soft bottom and sides, while here they are made of jagged rocks, which would make greater width necessary f Mr. Menocal. You mean between the lakes'? The channel between the lakes is excavated as well. There the vessels pass going at full speed. In the Nicaragua Canal it is not estimated that they will go more than 5 or 6 miles an hour. I have a letter from the chief engineer of the Manchester Canal. I asked him if he thought there was any difficulty of ships i)assing at all points, with the canal 120 feet wide — 5 feet less than I have proposed, in the river, and the same depth in all other portions, except the deep cut — and he tells me that there will be no difiBculty whatever in their passing at all times and meeting at all places, at the rate of 6 miles an hour. I have this letter from the chief engineer of the London docks. At any rate, we have numerous basins in the river itself and the artificial basins that we have made, and the traffic can be so regulated that there will be no necessity for passing at all points. It is not intended to pass at all points. It has ntit been done in the Suez Canal. Why should this be made an exception to all other ship canals in the world ? N c 5 C)6 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Jot. Ton propose to use the river in place of the caual at Oclioa. What is the sharpest curvature? Mr. Menocal. Three thousand feet. Mr. Joy. Can one of the hirge vessels go through without a tow boat? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; we have the opinion of the exjierience of naval ollicers and experienced captains of merchant ships — captains of the Pacific Mail steamers, who have gone over the ground with me. It is their opinion that there will be no difficulty whatever in ships going through. However, in one or two points I have estimated to cut off the bend of the river to a considerable extent. Mr. Bennett. Then a ship going through with its own power would not injure it? Mr, Menocal. The sides of the canal are supposed to be lined with stone anyway where the sides are soft. Mr. Joy. How much distance in the lake do you figure will have to be excavated ? Mr. Menocal. Fourteen miles to get a 30-foot depth of water. Now, in regard to this width of the canal. First, the canal is estimated at 120 feet wide. The slopes are estimated at 3 to 1, and in the lake also 3 to 1. Maybe in the lake it will require as much as 5 to 1. If you take a ship drawing 20 feet of water, you will have 180 feet between the banks. You see by the slope there would be 180 instead of 120 feet, and in the lake there would be still more, because the slopes are flat. So, while we have estimated 120 feet, that is only at the bottom, and as the average draft of ships would be about 20 feet and the maximum 25 feet — tliere are few anywhere to-day more than that — there would be a margin in all cases very much larger than we have proposed. Mr. Joy. You do not think there will be any danger of the flooding of the sands by the action of the water and by the excavation in the lake itself? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I do not. There is no current there, and there is no reason why it should. The lake is large and the discharge is comi)aratively small. The basins are small as compared to the area of the section. Consequently, the current in the lake is imperceptible. Mr. Corliss. Would it not have a tendency to lower the level? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; it would be an average of 110 feet above sea level by the Oclioa dam. Necessarily there would be fluctuations. The level would probably fluctnate 3 feet — from 108i feet to, say. 111 J. I do not think the Commission disagrees with me, but they seem to have thouglit that when I said 110 feet above sea level that I meant this level was i)ermanent. I could not mean anything of the kind, because the lake nuist fluctuate up and down between the rainy and the dry sea- sons, and when I said 110 feet I meant the average. It may fall a foot and a half. It may rise a foot and a half above tliat, yet leaving a greater depth than we have in any shij) caual in the world to-day. A REVIEW OF THE REPORT OP THE BOARD OP ENGINEERS, APPOINTED UNDER ACT OF CONGRESS, TO EXAMINE AND REPORT UPON THE NICARAGUA CANAL PROJECT. By Civil Engineer A. G. Menocal, U. S. N. To anyone familiar with the project of the interocoaTiic canal across the American Isthmus, as it is proposed to be constructed by the Mari- time Canal Company of Nicaragua, the first and continually prominent NICARAGUA CANAL. 67 fact that commands attention in considering the report of the Boarlans, but thinks it would be preferable to have four locks of uniform lift instead of three as pro- posed. The change would materially increase the original cost and the NICARAGUA CANAL. 73 operating expenses withont gaining any advantage to navigation. Locks of 31, 35, and 40 feet lift, as proposed, conform much better to tbe topography of the country, will be less expensive iu original cost and maintenance, and offer less obstruction to navigation, and therefore the proposed change is not desirable. As to the recommendation that the locks be built 80 feet wide in the chamber, there is no objection to the proposition beyond the increased cost. The width estimated for by the company (70 feet) is, however, quite sufficient for the unimpeded passage of all vessels likely to pass through the canal, and no water- way built as a commercial undertaking can afford to be overloaded with extra cost for the puri^ose of making provisions for the passage of a few ships aHoat of unusual dimensions which may never have occasion to use the canal. Uast divide — No definite changes have been proposed in the section adopted for the "eastern divide cut," but it is pointed out that more borings will be needed to determine with i^recision the exact character and amount of rock to be removed. The cut is short of 3 miles long, and there were 38 borings taken in that distance. Of that number, 22 borings were made with the auger through the overlying clay to the rock, and 16 were made with the diamond drill in the rock, penetrating to the bottom level of the canal. While these borings sliowed some variation in the consistence of the rock, there is no indication, either in the cores brought up or in the large masses of rock in view at the Falls and in the bed of the Deseado, of strati iication, clay seams, or disinte- grated material, suggesting the probability, or even possibility, of the sliding of the mass from the sides of the excavation. It is claimed that with the borings taken, averaging one at every 400 feet on the axis of the canal, and with cross sections of the ground at every 100 feet, the computed amount of excavation is as close an approximation to the actual quantity to be removed as is reasonable to exi)ect in an estimate of this kind, and more so than is generally found in original estimates of works of this magnitude. Borings on lines parallel to the axis of the canal would be of interest and of value, especially if the work is to be done by contract ; but for the purpose of an estimate, with a large percentage added for contingencies, they are not regarded as essential. The iSan Francisco emhankments. — The Board finds no insurmountable difficulties in the construction of the embankments in the valley of the San Francisco. Some of them are important engineering works requir- ing care and skill in their construction, as has always been admitted, birt they are accepted as practicable; not, however, without calling attention in three places in the report to the facility with which such a line of embankments could be destroyed through malice or for military purposes, thus blocking the canal or stopping its operation for a consid- erable length of time. Such a remark might have been more strikingly emphasized by applying it to the locks and other works connected with the canal, and by adding that there is no engineering work in existence to-day which could not be wrecked by a charge of dynamite. Railroad and telegraph lines. — The company has provided for a sin- gle-track railroad between Greytown and Ochoa, and has estimated it at a price per mile sufficiently high to include the necessary sidings, water tanks, and stations, such as are required during construction, but exclusive of such switches and other temporary tracks as may be needed in the viciuity of the works, the cost of which being chargeable to are included in the estimate of the various works to which they per- tain. The Board is of the opinion that a double-track road will be needed for the business west of the east end of the divide cut, and 74 NICARAGUA CANAL. lias increased the estimate accordingly. Considering that this road is to be built strictly for construction purposes, and for no other business, it is believed that even if the traffic westward should be as large as the Board assumes, a well built and intelligently managed single-track road will be quite sufficient for the business. The remarkable state of preservation shown (after four years of neglect) by the 11^ miles of road built by the company under adverse circumstances, as regards the physical conditions and the inadequate plant used in construction, is sufficient proof that track maintenance in that country will offer no greater difficulties than in any other country, nor as great. The Oclioa Bam and San Carlos Bidgc. — Tlie report devotes consider- able space to the discussion of the proposed Ochoa Dam. It calls atten- tion to the lack of hydraulic data and insuihcient borings taken by the company at the sight of the dam. It cites and describes several rock- fill or dry-rubble dams, built on different sections, different plans, for different purposes, and under conditions entirely dissimilar to those existing at Ochoa, which dams have been demolished when overtopped by the impounded waters. It regards as hazardous to undertake the building of such dam without precedent in engineering, with the meager information collected by the company, and closes the discussion with the conclusion that if a dam must be built at Ochoa, and the physical conditions are such that a masonry dam is not practicable there, the Board is of the opinion that a rock-fill dam, such as has been proposed, can be safely built, with certain modifications of the original plan and method of construction suggested in the report. The matter of hydraulic data lias already been discussed in this paper and repetition here is unnecessary. As to the borings, it will be sufficient to say that enough of them were made to establish the fact that there is no solid rock ledge within practical distance available for foundations at the site of the dam. That the abutting hills are comi^osed of compact, hard, red clay, with occasional bowlders, and the bottom of the river of sand to considerable depth. Whether the rock lies 100 feet or 200 feet below the river bottom is of little moment as long as it is too deep to admit of being used for the support of the structure. To continue boring after these facts had been established would have been a waste of time and money, and operations were therefore sus- pended after seventeen borings had been made. It was evident from the borings that a masonry dam of the height required was not practi- cable at that point under existing conditions, and either a more suitable site had to be found or a method of construction adopted suitable to the conditions found. Careful investigations showed that there is no practicable site for a dam between Machuca and Ochoa, due principally to the great depth of water in the "Aguas Muertas" section of the river, and that there is but one available site below, about 5 miles from Ochoa, which presents no advantages over the upper site, the physical condi- tions being practically identical. The site at Ochoa was, therefore, adhered to, and a rock-fill dam was adopted as the only safe and eco- nomical solution of the problem. The dams described by the board can not be accepted as parellel cases, and they throw little or no light on the problems in question. They were built of small stones, packed by hand, with steep front and back slopes, and on rock foundations. They were built for the storage of water, were not intended to be overto])ped, and as might have been expected were, with one exce]>tion, carried away as soon as a large volume of water commenced to flow over their crests. It is quite remarkable that one of the dams described (the Bowman dam) successfully resisted the fiow of a considerable volume of water NICARAGUA CANAL. 75 over its to]), a circumstance duo, evidently as much as to any other con- dition, to the hirger size of the stone used in its construction. In search- ing for precedents of rock-fill or dry-rubble dams built on sandy bottom to withstand the flow of large volumes of water over their tops, we will have to look at the irrigation works of India, where such methods of construction have been in practice for many years. Rough stone weirs exist at the heads of most of the irrigation chan- nels in Misan, which raise the level of the water to the required height, the lowest being 7 feet and the highest 25 feet. The Mudden weir is 22 feet high and 168 feet at base. As originally constructed it consisted of a mass of rubble, paved with larger stones, the front face with stones 1^ by 1 foot, while the apron was i)aved with rough stone blocks of about 2 cubic yards each. That this weir should have stood, with but occasional repairs, for a great number of years is quite remarkable, on account of the small stones comprising its mass. It was recently reconstructed, and the original form was retained by the engineer, but a brick and-mortar wall was introduced against the upper face to prevent the displacement of the small stones. The weir at the head of the AgTa and Soane canals represents a quite usual type of rough weirs built in sandy bottom. This weir is witliout solid foundations of any kind, resting directly on the sandy bed of the river. Its crest is 10 feet above the river bed and its length 2,575 feet. The flood discharge is as high as 1,300,000 cubic feet per second, the depth of water over the crest in flood discharge being about 10 feet. The Soane weir is similar to the Agra weir in generiil construction ; it rests on wells sunk from 6 to 8 feet in the sandy bed of the river, three narrow masonry walls being used to keep the small stone in l)lace. Between the walls is a simple stone packing. The upstream slope is 1 on 3, and the downstream slope is 1 on 12. The weir is 12,470 feet long, and the height, including depth of wells, 19.3 feet. Flood discharge, 750,000 cubic feet per second. The weir at Begewada, in the Kistna Deltaic works, is 3,198 feet long and 15J feet high above top of foundations, which consist of a double row of walls sunk in the sandy river bed. The flood discharge is 736,000 feet per second, and at the greatest flood the water rose 19^ feet above crest of weir. It will be apparent that such works could not be built in one dry season, and the floods must have passed over them during construction. Many similar weirs could be cited of about similar dimensions and built on the same conditions and by similar methods as those described above. Not any of these weirs approach in height the one proposed at Ochoa, but the precedent of rock-fill dams or weirs, built on sandy river beds successfully withstanding the undermining effects of a considerable hydraulic head and the flow over their crests of enormous volumes of water is fully established ; all that is needed in the case of Ochoa being to proportion the structure to the height required. The cross walls used in the construction of the weirs in India to prevent the rolling of small stones can safely be dispensed with in this case by using large blocks weighing from five to ten tons in the body of the whole mound, as has been proposed. That these stone blocks will gradually sink in the river-sand bed, as the work progresses, by the scouring action of the increasing head is fully admitted; but if the practical results obtained in India, especially at the Agra weir, and in many brush and timber dams built in sandy rivers in the United States, can be taken as a criterionj the mound at Ochoa will not sink more than 15 feet in 7G NICARAGUA CANAL. tlic river bed under a head of 60 feet, the base of the rock inonnd beinjjj not less than 900 feet in length. The Agra weir rests on the bed of the river without foundation of any kind, practically floating on sand, the friction under its long base being solely depended upon to overcome the hydraulic head. That the comparatively small flow of the San Juan will have but little or no effect on the mound during construction is also proved by the experience gained in India, where such enormous floods as cited are discliarged over rock-fill weirs. In ftxct, during the first stage of the work the floods will practically drown the mound, showing scarcely a ripifle in the surface. As the work advances the fall will be more clearly defined, but by that time the whole base of the dam should have been laid in place, and the long apron will serve to destroy the force of the fall. That the dam will become tight by the simple action of the sedimentary deposit of the river is beyond dispute, but the small material proposed to be deposited on the upstream face will precipitate that result. The Board admits the practicability of the dam, with some modifica- tions in the method of construction. The first consists in strengthening the abutments by means of concrete piers sunk with the aid of caissons, and the second, and most important change jiroposed is to build a series of sluices in the surrounding ridge of the San Carlos basin, by which the whole volume of the river in flood can be diverted from its natural chan- nel when the mound has attained a height of about 50 feet above low- water level, the rest of the dam to be then built to completion practi- cally free from water. The first proposition involves a mere matter of detail, and while I regard it as practically of no advantage, and therefore extravagantly and unnecessarily expensive, it need not be discussed at length. The second proposition is, in my opinion, of the greater importance. It would be an element of weakness in method, and if carried out it is most likely to result in at least temporary failure. I claim that the assistance of the river is essentially necessary during construction by the method proposed, in order to obtain a permanent structure. The hydraulic head should be constantly acting on the base to attain and to keep up the maximum scour and the settlement of the whole mass, and the flow will be a powerful and valuable agent in distributing the material over the work in progress, until every block and every pebble has found a final resting i^lace. But if a portion, and the most impor- tant part, of the dam is built free from water, it is more than probable that when the whole pressure is brought to bear upon the structure a sudden settlement of the mass will take place; the dam may be breached thereby, and the resulting injury to the work may be very serious, and to say the least, expensive to repair. If the method of construction recommended by the company's plan is adhered to, there will be no danger in allowing a portion of the river flow to discharge over the dam. If all the parts composing the mound have in their turn successfully stood a proportional share of the full force of the stream acting on the whole mass, there is no good reason to fear that a much reduced flow will endanger stability. However, that is a matter of detail, and the fact that by raising the dam crest above the highest probable water level in the river the stability of the dam is placed beyoiul all possible contingencies of accident need not be dis- puted. But I firmly assert that the method I have outlined for build- ing the dam is the safest, as well as the most economical, and that the modifications proposed by tlie Board are, first, unnecessarily costly, the auxiliary sluices alone being estimated at lljSOOjOOO, and liext danger- NICARAGUA CANAL. 77 ous as regards stability of the structure. With the sluces and weirs proposed by the coinpauy, the summit level can be regulated and the surplus waters safely discharged, and if later investigations should show that the probable maximum floods may be greater than have been estimated, additional weir crest can be provided in due time during construction. Tlie San Juan River. — The Board believes that the channels proix)sed by the company's plans in the river San Juan and at the east side of the lake, where excavations are needed to obtain the required depth for navigation, viz, 125 feet wide at the bottom in the river section and 150 feet wide in the lake, is altogether too small, and recommends bottom widths of not less than 250 feet in the river and 300 feet in the lake. Such widths of channel are, in my opinion, unnecessary, and at the outset undesirable on account of the enormous increase of cost involved. There is no ship canal in the world of such channel width, with the exception of the canals between the American Great Lakes, if they can be called ship canals, where the conditions of traffic differ entirely from those pertaining to canals built for the accommodation of ocean traflBc. During the season of 1895, of two hundred and thirty-one days, 17,956 vessels passed through the St. Marys Falls Canal, of which 12,495 were steamers, 4,790 sails, and 671 unregistered craft, or an average of 78 vessels per day, with an average tonnage of 935, carrying an aggregate of 15,002,580 registered tonnage, showing an increase of 7,399 vessels and 6,508,145 tons since 1890. With an estimated traffic of 10,000,000 tons, extended over the entire year, and an average tonnage of 2,500 tons, the number of vessels passing through the Nicaragua Canal per day will be 11, as compared to 78 going through the St. Marys Falls Canal, and for a traffic of 6,000,000 tons the number of ships passing through Nicaragua will average less than 7 per day. The conditions of traffic are also entirely dissimilar. In the lake traffic the distances are comparatively short and the competition sharp, and every hour saved and each mile made represents an appreciable item in the profit and loss account for the trip, while ships passing through the Nicaragua Canal will save hundreds of thousands of miles, and days instead of hours, in the length of the voyages, and the loss of a few hours by deten- tion would play no part in the expense of the voyage. The matter of speed is, therefore, of vast importance in lake navigation, but of far less consequence in an interoceanic shij) canal. A wide channel, in which steam and sailing vessels and large tows can travel at full speed, and pass one another at all points without hindrance, is necessary in the former case, while at Nicaragua, with a limited number of ships travel- ing at comparatively low speed, a much more contracted channel will be sufficient to meet requirements, as has been proved by experience in other shiij canals. Pilots and navigators are of the opinion that there will be no diffi- culty for ships passing each other in the 125-foot channel proposed in the excavated section of the river. With the channel properly marked, vessels traveling in opposite directions can pass each other at many points, and if necessary the traffic can be regulated so that they will meet only on the lake or in the broad and deep expanses of the river. When the traffic through the canal increases to the extent that such arrangement can not be conveniently carried out without undue delay, turn-outs can be excavated at proper places or the channel widened in its entire length. In the meantime it is not a sound business proposi- tion, and surely not good engineering, to load the enterprise at the out- set with such enormous unnecessary expense. 78 NICARAGUA CANAL. LaliC Nicaragua. — What bas been said of tbe river channel can be applied with greater force to the lake channel; 150 feet wide at bottom, with slopes of 3 to 1, as estimated in the company's i)Ians, or slopes of 5 to 1, as is quite possible, may be needed on account of the soft nature of the bottom. With such slopes, vessels drawing 20 feet will have a clearance of from 210 to 250 feet between the banks, and for a draft of 25 feet the clearance would be from 180 to 200 feet. I am of the opinion, therefore, that the width of channel proposed by the company's plans is quite sufficient, and that the changes, involv- ing enormously increased cost of construction, recommended by the board, are unnecessary. As to the depth of the channels, the company has estimated 28 feet in the river and 30 feet in the lake. It has been contemplated that when the plans are finally carried out the depth will be 30 feet through- out, but in order to open the canal to traffic with no more expense than is necessary to secure free and safe navigation the channels in the river and in the sea-level sections of the canal have been estimated at 28 feet, which is the maximum depth of the deepest ship canal in the world. Attention is called in this connection to an error recently dis- covered in the quantities of excavation in the upper section of the river estimated for by the company. These quantities were transferred from the Government rex>ort of 1885 (the Government surveys of the river having been used by the comi)any), and it now appears that through clerical error, mistaken computations, or misprint in the preparation of that report the quantities estimated fall short of the actual amount of excavation needed, and it is conceded that the estimates must be cor- rected accordingly. The cominitations for excavations in the lake, as on other parts of the canal, were made from data of recent careful sur- veys made by the company and the amounts inserted in the estimates are believed to be absolutely correct. The discrepancy of 417,000 cubic yards of dredging in the lake between the amounts estimated by the company and as computed by the Board must be due either to error in calculation by the Board or to distortion of the paper after much hand- ling and exposure of the plans, the figures of the Board being based on scale measurements along 14 miles of excavation. The error in the river section was detected by the Board while checking the quantities in the company's estimates. The change suggested in the position of the pier proposed at the entrance of the canal on the west coast of the lake is not regarded as desirable. The proposed piers are intended to assist ships in taking the canal, and not to break the lake waves, which are never sufficiently high to make the least impression on vessels of the size passing through the canal. The correctness of this statement is proved by the safety with which small boats of the rudest construction jdy regularly between points on both coasts of the lake, and also by the remarkably good state of preservation of roughly built crib i^iers of many years' stand- ing at San Jorge and Granada, on the most exposed shore of the lake. Lale Nicaragua to the Pacific. — The company has carefully located two routes for the section of the canal between the lake and the Pacific. The route estimated for involves the construction of a dam about 70 feet high at La Flor. A deep basin about 5 miles long, created by this dam in the valley of Tola, and three locks to overcome the lake level, extended through the canal to the dam. The alternate route would be wholly in excavation from the lake to Brito, would require four locks of reduced lift, and, while presenting no engineering difficulties, its cost would be considerably more than the basin plan, by reason of increased excavation and one additional lock. NICARAGUA CANAL. 79 Deep borings with the diamond drill, taken at the site of the dam, show that the uniform rock ledge lies at great depth below the surface of the valley, and that the construction of the high dam originally pro- posed would involve more serious difficulties than had been anticipated. The basin plan is, however, so attractive and presents so many impor- tant advantages to navigation, both as a passing place and as an inner, spacious fresh-water harbor, less than 4 miles from the Pacific, that the company has been reluctant to abandon it in favor of the all-surface route before a more detailed examination of the site has been made, and it is yet confidently expected that in case a high dam proves to be impracticable, one of considerably less height may be safely constructed and the basin plan, with some modifications, retained. Pending final decision in this matter, a temporary earth dam, with concrete core, has been provided for in the company's estimate for the basin-plan route. The Board regards the result of the borings as conclusive against the high dam, and without giving any consideration to the modified plan with a low-level basin it recommends the low-level canal as the safest. A remarkable change in location is here proposed between the end of the divide cut and Brito, a distance of about 8 miles. That portion of the route located by the company, after the most careful detailed sur- veys and study of the country traversed, with due regard to previous examinations made by the United States surveying expedition, is set aside, and a paper location on the south side of the Eio Grande is suggested and estimated upon in lieu thereof. The claim that the pro- posed change in location would save complications in disposing of the insignificant water course Tola has no force whatever, as that creek can be taken into the canal or discharged under it into the Eio Grande at small expense and without inconvenience to navigation or risk of injury to the work. The transfer of the canal from the north to the south side of the Rio Grande would involve considerable increased cost in construction and very serious complications in the diversion of the stream by a long, expensive artificial channel, nearly as large as the canal itself, into Brito Harbor between the canal and the high land to the west. It would also prevent the contemplated change in location of the lower locks toward the hills, when more favorable foundations can be found for it, and the diversion of the Rio Grande directly into the sea, should such a plan be found advisable. In fact, to engineers familiar with the project, it is difficult to find one plausible reason to justify the extraordinary change in location proposed for this section of the route. Brito Harbor. — In the location and design of the harbor of Brito important changes are also i^roposed by the Board, and with the same disregard for increased cost manifested throughout the report. It is l)roper to state in this connection that the harbor has been designed with the only object in view of securing an easy and safe entrance to this canal, and not for commercial purposes. The local business at the entrance of the canal is not expected to be large, and in any case the company would not be justified in providing for it, at a largely increased expense, before the need becomes manifest as a business proposition. With the harbor as designed, several ships can be accommodated in it without interference with the traffic through the canal, and the topog- raphy of the vicinity presents ample facilities for enlarging the inner basin by dredging, when it becomes requisite and profitable to do so. The Tola Basin, and especially the lake, will be inland harbors, where the attractive surroundings and healthful climate will offer strong inducements for ships to lie at anchor for rejiairs, for coaling, or to 80 NICA&AGUA CANAL. replenish their stock of fresh provisions, with the additional advantage that while lying in fresh waters their bottoms will be cleared of bar- nacles. For these reasons, large harbors at either terminus, beyond what is actually needed for admission to the canal, are not regarded as necessary or advisable from the start. The proposed harbor of Brito has been located and designed with a view to satisfy the conditions first stated at the least expense, and as laid down has met with the approval of eminent harbor engineers and experienced navigators familiar with that coast. The claim of undue exposure is not substantiated by facts. The harbor of San Juan del Sur, about 8 miles to the east of Brito, but 600 yards deep inside of the rocky points forming the bight, comparatively shallow, with a shelving bottom and a sandy beach, and open on its whole width to the south and southwest, is uniformly smooth and affords safe anchorage for shiiis, hardly a ripple being ever observed on the sandy beach sur- rounding it. The prevailing winds on that coast are the " i)apagallos," blowing from north-northeast to east-Tiortheast, directly oft'shore, fre- quently with great violence opposite Lakes Managua and Nicaragua, reaching their maximum force in December and January. They are first felt about 5 or 6 miles offshore and their influence extends 30 or miles from the coast. During the rainy season, from May to November, gales from the west and southwest, called "chubassos," are frequent and at times violent, although of very short duration. The proposed entrance to Brito Harbor is open only to the south and southeast, which are the least exposed quarters ; the prevailing swell will be practically arrested by the west breakwater and its deflection into the harbor j)revented by the east jetty, and in view of what takes place at San Juan del Sur, there is absolutely no reason to apprehend any undue agitation in the basin or the breaking of the surf on the west beach of the harbor, as feared by the Board; the ground swells break on the shelving, open beach of the coast, but not in deep waters, and as to long, high waves, it is well known that the swells are scarcely noticeable half a mile from the coast, where ships can in ordinary weather lie with perfect comfort. The statement that the borings made by the company are too few in number and of too little penetration to determine the underlying mate- rials within the harbor limits is not sustained by the facts. Sixty bor- ings were made in the viciuitj^, and their penetrations were sufficient to show the character of the material to be removed and the outline of the rock ledge within the harbor limits. There is, it is admitted, some important and necessary data yet to be obtained before the final plans for harbor construction can be completed in all details, and to respond to the degree of precision demanded by the Board, but not generally observed in the first estimate for work of this kind. In this, as in all other works proposed, the company had not yet reached that degree of com})leteness in its investigations which would warrant final and detail drawings to be made for each and every work proposed, but the vast amount of data accumulated concerning the route has been appreciated by practical engineers and regarded as unusually complete for the for- mation and first presentation of the canal project, and the estimate of its cost has been considered sufficiently approximate within the limits of the large margin allowed for contingencies. Additional surveys and examinations. — The additional surveys and other examinations recommended by the Board would add but little, if any, ijractical value to the data already at hand. The only material result would be a waste of valuable time and money and unnecessary postponement of the work. NICARAGUA CANAL. 81 The information recommeuded to be obtained in the vicinity of Brito Harbor would be of value for the preparation of final working drawings, but it is not essential for determining the practicability of the work or its approximate cost. The surveys of Brito and Greytown were made by experienced naval officers, trained in coast-survey work, and are believed to have been made and the work platted correctly. It will be difficult to find valid reasons for the assertion made in the rei)ort that a new location is necessary in the western division from the summit lock, 9;^ miles distant from the lake, to the Pacific, following the left bank of the Kio Grande instead of the right bank, as proposed in the present location. Fo section of the country traversed by the canal has been more thoroughly examined and no portion of the route more carefully located than that between the lake and the Pacific. The low-level route adopted by the company is the result of the most careful study of data thus accumulated and of a perfect knowledge of the coun- try, and the Board admits that it is perfectly practicable, involves no engineering difficulties, and could be built at less cost than the route suggested by them on the south side of the stream. The diversion of the upper Rio Grande, as proposed by the Board in connection with the modified location suggested, can be carried out as well, and better, as it would be less expensive, in connection with the present location, which has the additional important advantage of avoiding long and expensive artificial channels for the diversion of the Rio Grande, with all the dangers and engineering difficulties connected therewith. The claim for the new location that it would avoid complications in crossing the creek Tola is not deserving of serious consideration, as that insignificant water course can be readily disposed of, either by taking it into the canal, discharging it by means of a small weir into the Rio Grande, or by passing it under the canal directly into the main stream. It is firmly believed that had the board devoted a short time to the examination of the topography of the Tola valley and other physical conditions the change of location suggested would not have received serious consideration. The new surveys recommended in the lake would add no value to the data now on hand. The surveys at the entrance on both sides could not be made with more care or by more competent officers than those employed by the company. The sound- ings are quite sufficient in number and location for the purpose of esti- mating the amounts of materials to be excavated. On the west coast, where no borings were made in the lake, the excavation is estimated as wholly in rock, as indicated by the character of the outcrop on the shore, and no change made in the material could add to the estimated cost. On the east side the material to be excavated has been definitely determined. That the lake is sufficiently deep for free navigation of the largest vessels afloat between i^oints 14 miles from the outlet and about 1,500 feet from the west coast, the limits of the company's surveys, has been established by soundings, and has not yet been questioned. A com- jdete hydrographic chart of the lake will be necessary when the canal is open to traffic in order to properly mark the locations of the best anchorages and the navigable portions of the lake, but the need of such expensive survey at the present stage of the enterprise can not be clearly understood. As regards the San Juan River, it has been stated before that the company had the free use of the surveys made for the Government by a corps of competent officers under Commander L. P. Lull, United States Navy, in 1872-73. There is nothing to suggest the belief that N c 6 82 NICARAGUA CANAL. any material changes have taken place in the channel since that date, or that a new survey under the direction of the board would add much of practical value for the purpose of approximately estimating the amount of excavations required. Borings, it is admitted, would be of interest and value, but are not regarded so essential as the board seems to believe. Where rock is known or suspected to exist the excavation has been estimated as entirely in rock, and an examination of the river bed and banks would readily satisfy an engineer or contractor that there is no rock where dredgeable material has been estimated for. One week's exploration of the river and adjacent valley would proba- bly have been sufficient to satisfy the board that there are no practica- ble dam sites between Machuca and Ochoa, first, on account of the great depth of water in that section of the river, and second, on account of the prohibitory cost of canalization involved. There is a dam site some 5 miles below Ochoa, but it presents no advantage over the i^resent location. Below that point there is no eligible site either for a high or a low dam. The region of the Serapiqui, as well as all others below Ochoa, has been carefully examined by the Government surveying parties and by the engineers of the company, and the impracticability of a dam in that section of the river fully determined. A casual examination of the topography in the vicinity of the river would remove all doubts on that point. An inspection of the sketch showing the result of the explorations made under the direction of the board in the region of the Serapiqui fails to show the least ground for encouragement as regards the possibility of finding a practicable line by which the flow of the com- bined San Juan and Serapiqui rivers could be checked in that vicinity. I see in the sketch but a confirmation of my examinations of that locality and of the utter impracticability of the scheme. The exploration in search of dam sites from the Serapiqui to the San Juanillo, and as far as Greytown, could be made in a few hours from the deck of a steamboat sufficiently to convince a practical engineer of the hopelessness of the scheme. But allowing, for the sake of argument, that such dam sites could be found, the canalization of the river by a series of low dams would be impracticable if for no other reason than because of the rapid accumulation of sand, which would soon fill up the channel of the river in the various reaches, and the mere suggestion of the scheme shows a complete lack of knowledge of existing physical conditions. The Board recommends that from Ochoa to Greytown hydraulic and other data be gathered and studied before final location and construc- tion plans can be decided upon, and that alternative plans, where such suggest themselves, must be investigated with equal thoroughness for comparison and selection. This question of additional hydraulic data has been already discussed in this paper, and the reasons against their necessity are equally applicable in the i)resent instance. As to alterna- tive plans, all those giving indications of possible practicability have been carefully examined, and the present location is the result of most thorough investigations and a complete knowledge of the country. The completion of the flowage line of the San Francisco basins on the north side of the canal, and the measurement of the watersheds of the several streams, would lead to no practical results. The concession gives the company the right to occupy all the lands flooded by their work free of cost, and consequently the actual area submerged in the expansion and contraction of the basin is a matter of but little concern to either the company or to the Government of Nicaragua, as the lands are of no present value. The watershed of the streams draining into the basin as a whole is NICARAGUA CANAL. 83 known with an approximation to accuracy sufficient for all practical purposes. An actual measurement of tlie catchment basin would cer- tainly be interesting, and of some value in admitting of closer compu- tation of the amount of surplus waters to be discharged over weirs and through sluices; but, as in all such cases, large allowances must be made for a possible maximum. The neat calculation, based on the pre- cise watersheds, measured at considerable expense of time and money and at a time when the enterprise can least stand it, would be of no more value than a close approximation easily arrived at from the data on hand. The Board has evidently been misinformed regarding the conditions existing at Benard Lagoon, and it is to be regretted that, with such erroneous impression as is manifested in the discussion of that iiortion of the route, it did not take the trouble to visit the canal route in that region. Such an inspection would have shown that the so-called lagoon does not differ in physical characteristics from the other swamps between Grey- town and Lock No. 1. The location eastward and avoiding Benard Lagoon, recommended by the Board, was made by the company and afterwards abandoned on account of increased cost, and more particu- larly because it would involve a long, expensive, and dangerous diver- sion of the San Juanillo River. The disturbance of the natural drainage and the diversion through an alluvial formation of such a large stream, in close proximity to the excavated canal, should be avoided if possible, and in this case there is no need of it. The statements that there have been no borings over a portion of the sea-level canal and no explora- tions made of the depth and other difficulties to be apprehended in the endeavor to traverse the Benard Lagoon are incorrect. Between Greytown and the eastern end of the divide cut, 80 borings were made, penetrating to the bottom grade of the canal, of which 40 borings were made over the sea-level portion of the canal, the average distance between borings being about 1,000 feet. Considering the uniform character of the material and the fact that all the sea-level section is dredgeable, these are more than sufficient for a close estimate. In addition to the above, there were 121 borings made at the sites of locks Nos. 1, 2, and 3, in the same portion of the route. Altogether, 096 borings have been made by the company, of which GQ were made with the diamond drill, and numerous samples of the materials met with could have been seen by the board at the company's office if desired. Of that number, 103 borings were made on the lower route from Ochoa to Greytown, as to the location of which reference will be made here- after. The company could not have anticipated the views of the Board in this matter, but it has done all that was believed to be necessary for the x)iirpose of arriving at a close estimate of cost. Further repeated references to borings, to the gauging of streams, and to other hydraulic data in the report need no further remark, as all these questions have been fully discussed already. The Board, disregarding or ignoring all that has been done before the present route was adopted, recommends a resurvey or reexamina- tion to be made of the entire matter of the choice of route for the eastern division. Nothing could lead to a more unwarranted waste of a large sum of money. Keference has already been made to the utter impracticibility of a canalization of the San Juan below the San Carlos, as suggested by the Board. In this connection attention is called to the statement on page 84 of the report, to the effect that the volcanic sand brought down by the river San Carlos from the volcanic range in Costa Eica, where that river has its sources, has been intermittent in 84 NICARAGUA CANAL. character and variable iu amount, and for sometime past has been sus- pended entirely. The first proposition is, of course, correct, as the sand brought down by the river is proportioual in amount to the rain- fall in its watershed and consequent floods, and intermittently corre- sponding to the frequency of the floods. The second proposition has, however, no foundation in fact, and there is nothing to even suggest it, as the waters of the San Carlos in flood are loaded to full capacity with sedimentary matter, which iu turn is partly carried down by the San Juan to the sea, and partly builds numerous shoals and sand banks in its channel. Any hope for a canalization of the San Juan River below the San Carlos, based on such erroneous theoiy, if for no other reasons, is unworthy of consideration. The Board also recommends a resurvey of what is called the lower route on the north side and close to the bank of the San Juan from Ochoa to the San Juanillo, and thence to Grreytown. This route has been surveyed three times: First, by Colonel Childs; secondly, by the United States surveying expedition under Commander Lull ; and third, by the Canal Company. The last was a careful location, cross sectioned and bored along the whole length. From the accumulated data a project was completed sufficiently accurate and in detail for purposes of com- parison with the present route. After consideration of all the engineer- ing difficulties due to floods in the San Juan, and the crossings of the San Francisco and numerous other streams draining the vast and hilly watershed north of San Juan from Ochoa to the Sarapiqui, as well as to increased length of canal and greater cost, the route was aban- doned in favor of the present one, as the more economical and the safer of the tAvo. All the above data is in possession of the company. The statement that no idea can be formed as to the seriousness of the above objections until all the streams afiecting the building of the canal have been gauged and their regimen known, involves a postponement of the solution of the problem for an indefinite length of time, as the regimen of the streams can be said to be known for practical purposes only after many years of constant observations, and then only approximately. Acting on the usual method of approximations adopted in such cases, the difficulties have been carefully considered by the company and found to be so serious as to warrant the abandonment of the route. It would be interesting to know whether the Board contemplates other changes of location beyond these above noted, but it can be safely stated that the whole subject has been so thoroughly examined by the company that the field for investigation may be regarded as exhausted, and any attempt to find a route other than those already surveyed and consid- ered will end only in waste of time and money. Extensive explorations have been made on both the south and the north sides of the San Juan, of which records were not kept, as they showed no indications of i)os- sible improvement on what was already known. As to minor changes of detail in the present route, there may be a small margin for imj)rovement, but not of material importance. When work was suspended in Nicaragua the company had in the field several parties of engineers engaged in making surveys with a view to minor changes in details. The four-lock system, suggested by the Board in lieu of the three locks proposed by the company's plans in the eastern division, had alreadv received consideration and was discarded. The jflan and record of that change can be found in the company's records. Notwithstanding the opinions of the Board, the Canal Company claims to have fully complied with all the conditions requisite to a practical estimate of the cost of constructing a navigable ship canal NICARAGUA CANAL. 85 across the territory of the State of Nicaragua, in compliance with the conditions and requirements of its concession. If its gauging- of streams, and other data, concerning rainfall, etc., are not so extended and complete as are pronounced necessary by the Board, it is because they are entirely sufficient, and all that is requisite for a sufficiently proximate estimate of the cost of such a canal as is proposed to be constructed by the company — a canal in every way sufficient for the transit of 20,000,000 tons of traffic. It is the company's records which show the maximum rainfall at Greytown, 297 inches in one year, quoted by the Board, and that fact is openly stated in the company's publications, demonstrating that even the most extreme known conditions have been recognized in the prepa- ration of the company's estimates. It remains to consider briefly and in their consecutive order the con- clusions submitted by the Board at page 85 et seq. of their report. "1. Greytown Harbor:" Apart from technical objections to the change proposed, already stated, the concessions and the unwilling- ness of the Nicaraguan Government to allow the terminal ports of the canal to be located other than on Nicaraguan territory are prohibitory of the change proposed, inasmuch as the canal can only be constructed by the use of the iSan Juan River and Lake Nicaragua, which are under Nicaraguan sovereignty. " 2. Canal Greytown to Lock No. 1 : " The proposition of the Board is neither in the interest of economy nor of practical advantage, but is of practical disadvantage, as has been shown. " 3. Lock No. 1 to end of Summit Level at Lock No. 3 : " The multi- plication of the number of locks is immaterial in itself, but it is objec- tionable for lack of desirable sites, and on the ground of increased expense, and because such increase is not necessary, as has been shown. " 4. Eastern Divide Cut Data : " The only objection to the Board's suggestion on this point is the consequent delay and the unnecessary increase of expenditure, the company's data being all that is practically necessary. "5. San Francisco Basins:" The suggestions under this head are in the line of unnecessary increase of cost as has been shown. That of wreckage is a remote possibility which exists in every great public work, and there is no reason why it should have greater force in this case than in others. "G. Ochoa Dam:" It has been shown that a suitable site for a masonry dam on the San Juan Eiver can not be found, and that a rock-fill dam is the only alternative. The Board admits the feasibility of construction of such a dam, The use of such dams in India, over the crest of which water flows in volume far in excess of even the Board's largest estimate of the flood flow of the San Juan has been shown, and is conclusive assurance of the permanency of such a dam at Ochoa when constructed in the manner proposed. " 7. San Carlos Ridge." "8. San Juan River, Ochoa to Lake." " 9. Lake Nicaragua." Are all suggestions involving unneccessary delay and increase of exj)enditure. Any accumulation of data beyond what the company already possesses, and which may modify the final development of its plans, may and will be accumulated as the work progresses, all as has been shown. "10. The Lajas Rio Grande route:" The possibility of an alternative location for the La Flor dam is recognized and provided for in the com- 86 NICARAGUA CANAL. paiiy's plans. The suggestion of tlie change of the location of the canal route is objectionable not only on the ground of increased cost, but because of engineering difficulties, avoidable by the company's location, as has been shown. "11. Brito Harbor : " The suggestions indicate superficial observation of existing conditions. They involve increase of cost for no adequate reason, and unnecessary and disadvantageous changes in jilan. GENERAL SUGGESTIONS. "12:" Objectionable, on ground that as a commercial undertaking it is unnecessary to charge the enterprise with providing excess of capacity for accommodation of the transit of the very few war vessels of the excessive dimensions mentioned. "13 and 14:" Objectionable, as involving unnecessary delay. Pro- visions are made in the company's plans for extreme conditions, and, therefore, the accumulation of data only necessary to completion may progress as the work is carried on. "15 and 16:" Objectionable, as involving unnecessary delay. Such investigation has been most thoroughly and completely made by the company, as has been shown. "17:" Immaterial. "18:" Assertion unwarranted by practical experience." "19:" Admitted. "20, 21, and 22:" Depend upon the accuracy of the Board's conclu- sions, which are questioned as hereinbefore. COST OF WORK AND ESTIMATES. In fixing the unit of prices for an estimate of cost of the canal, the Board has been influenced by the controlling impressions received in its hurried trip, made under many difficulties, through a country and in a climate entirely new to it, and has adopted the same extravagant methods and conclusions prevalent throughout the report. The effect of the climate and rainfall in the execution of the works proposed are greatly magnified, and the conclusions arrived at are at variance with practical results attained both by the canal company and by experienced contractors in doing work at Nicaragua. It is admitted in the report that a sufficient supply of unskilled labor can be obtained from Central America and the West Indies, especially from Jamaica; that under good management the Jamaica negroes are industrious and fairly effective and their wages only about one-half as much as in the United States, but that the efficiency of the laborers is much less in proportion. It is also admitted that under complete police control and subjected to judicious sanitary regulations there will be no more sickness than occurs on public works in many parts of the United States. The Board, however, finds a concurrence of opinion among those who have had experience in the management of construction work in Central America that the cost of work, due to inefficient labor and unfavorable location, is about twice as much as in the United States. Attention is invited in this connection to the practical results accom- plished by responsible and experienced contractors who have spent considerable time in Nicaragua at all seasons of the year, and knowing the route of the canal thoroughly constructed llj miles of railroad for the company, in order to better study the health of the country and the question of the sui)ply of labor for the construction of the canal. There can scarcely be a more unhealthful piece of work in the entire NICARAGUA CANAL. 87 canal than that section of the railroad constructed from Greytown 10 miles across the swamps to the higher ground beyond. More than half the men employed worked in the swami)s, in water from their knees to their shoulders, ten hours a day, doing hard work, and not always having proper food; and yet out of about 1,000 laborers employed by the contractor for seven months only 2 died of disease. The men did not stop work on account of the rain, but worked steadily through the rainy season, without protection while at work, except two half days during the seven months, and at the end of that time they were in as good health as at the beginning, or even better. Most of the men were Jamaica negroes, but there were also two or three hundred native Nicar- aguans and Costa Ricans and a few negroes from the United States. The contractors therefore concluded that the matter of health, as affect- ing the difficulty and cost of construction of the canal, need hardly be considered more than in estimating the cost of work in almost any part of the United States. One party of the contractors had previously had considerable experience in building the railroad from San Jose to Guatemala City, in Central America. They expressed themselves satisfied that a constant force of 15,000 men, or more, could be had on the eastern end of the work from the island of Jamaica alone. These men are good at task work, and are fairly good in large gangs under foremen. A small number of engine drivers, excavators, and steam-drill men, stokers, etc., can be had from the same sources, also a good many rough masons and carpenters. The cost of the 10 miles of road built by the contractors was $32,411.18 per mile, including material, labor, subsistence, and contractors' profit of 10 per cent. The ties and rails were imported from the United States and lauded at Greytown under many difficulties and at consid- erable cost. The actual cost was, therefore, a little over one-half the estimated cost of $60,000 per mile allowed in the company's estimate. That the road was thoroughly built is shown by the fact that, after four years of complete neglect, the work was found by the Board in a remarkably good state of preservation, with the exception of the ties that need renewing. These contractors, with a full knowledge of the country and of all the borings made on the route of the canal, are of the opinion that "the work can be done on the whole canal for about the unit prices estimated by the chief engineer and give the contractors fair profit," and they are ready to contract under bonds to do the work on that basis. The work done by the company, such as telegraph lines, grubbing, and clearing and dredging, has also cost less than the estimate. The dredging was done with an incomplete and, in some respects, unsuit- able plant, and its cost, exclusive of deterioratian of plant, but includ- ing all other charges, was 11 cents per cubic yard, the estimated cost being 20 cents. There seems to be no good reason for the statement that the machin- ery used will be of but little value after the construction of the canal, that hardly any of it will be worth removal, and its entire cost would therefore be charged to canal construction, making the plant charge higher than usual. With the canal finished and open to traffic and a railroad parallel to it, there is no reason why the plant could not be transported to any part of the world where there may be a demand for it, at the same or less cost of transportation than in the United States. The dredging plant used in Panama for several years was transferred to Greytown in good working order, and the whole plant of the Panama 88 NICARAGUA CANAL. Canal could have been shipi^ed to Nicaragua without much trouble and at small cost. However, it is quite likely that contractors in bid- ding for work on the canal would figure but little on future returns from the sale of the plant used in the work, and it may well be doubted that the contractors for the Chicago Drainage Canal, with the experi- ence gained at Suez, and Manchester, and other similar works, expect any j)roceeds on the completion of their contracts from the sale of the special machinery and other aj)plianccs u.sed in the works, except as scrap. UNIT PRICES. Dredging is being done in the harbor of Mobile to the amount ef many million yards, the material deposited 6 miles at sea for 7 cents per cubic yard, and the contractors appear to be prosi^erous. In Far Eockaway, where the material has been deposited by pipes as far as 4 miles from the dredges, it costs from 4 to 6 cents per cubic yard. On the coast of England, dredging at the harbor entrances costs from 5 to 8 cents per cubic yard. The dredging done by the company in Nicar- agua, with an incomplete and unsuitable plant, cost, as has been already stated, 11 cents per cubic yard. The Board estimates dredging in Nicaragua at 20, 25, and 30 cents, which is not only enormously in excess of the cost elsewhere, as shown above, but also of work actually done in Nicaragua, and of prices at which bids for the work by responsible contractors have been made to the company. In the earth and rock excavation the company's estimates are from 66 to 78 per cent higher than the cost of similar work at the Chicago Drainage Canal; the Board's estimate is 150 per cent higher. Mr. Thomas A. Edison writes from Orange, N. J., under date December 18, 1895, stating that at his works, at Edison, N. J., with present appli- ances, the total cost of ore for drilling, blasting, loading, and delivery at the crushing plant, including all materials, labor, coal, rejiairs, etc., is 19.17 cents per ton (2,240 i)ouuds), the average distance from the quarry to the mill being about 2,000 feet. The pieces are taken out as large as possible, not to exceed 5 tons, and he adds that, with the appli- ances the company is now putting in the cranes for loading the ore into the skips, and with the plant working at full capacity (5,000 tons per twenty hours), he fully expects to deliver the ore at crushing plant for from 12 to 14 cents per ton, and probably less. The ore weighs about 190 pounds per cubic foot. The canal rock would weigh from 150 to 160 pounds per cubic foot, and Mr. Edison thinks that, with the appliances at Edison, N. J., it should be mined, loaded, and delivered on the bank for about 25 cents per cubic j^ard. On this basis the canal estimate for rock excavation would be from four to five times the actual cost of similar work in this country, and the Board's estimate from five to eight times larger. Mr. Edison says that they blow out several thousand tons at each blast, and try to get the pieces as large as possible, not exceeding 5 tons, as with his appliances a man can load a 5-ton piece as quickly as one weighing 500 pounds. The same methods should be employed at Nicaragua, and the addi- tional cost of 50 cents per cubic yard estimated by the Board for the stone to be used in the rock-fill dam is entirely unnecessary, especially if the rock excavation and the dam are built under one management, as they should be, as it would then be in the interest of the contractor to blow out and select the material suitable for the dam. NICARAGUA CANAL. 89 Considering that the cost of loading the stone on the cars and of hanl- ing it to the dump are included in cost per cubic yard of excavation, and that the railroad is the property of the company, it seems that the charge of 1 cent per ton per mile for transportation to dam is entirely unreasonable. The Board's estimate for rock excavation under water is excessive. The rock blasts well, much better than the stratified limestone in the St. Marys River, and there is no reason why the cost of plant in Nica- ragua should be 50 jjer cent greater nor the pay roll double. At any rate, the amount of rock to be removed is large and the plant is sinix)le and comparatively inexpensive. As to the pay roll, it was shown dur- ing the progress of the work in Nicaragua that the company could get all the skilled mechanics needed for about the ruling wages in New York, and ordinary mechanics for much less. The Board estimates concrete at $9.50 per yard, based on the cost of concrete for lock construction at Hennepin Canal. By investigating the subject somewhat further the Board would have found that in the construction of the concrete locks in the Coosa Eiver, Alabama, 20,000 cubic yards of Portland cement concrete have been laid, and up to the close of the fiscal year ending June 30, 1895, the average cost per cubic yard, including material, labor, engineering, and supervision, has been $4.57-1^0, or about one-half the cost of concrete in the Hennepin Canal locks, used by the Board as the basis for its estimate. Other conditions in this same work are worthy of note in this connection. Portland cement, used in the Coosa dam, cost $2.48 per barrel. The best quality can be contracted for free of duty, in Nicaragua, at $1.C0 to $1.70 per barrel. The work is done by negro labor, paid for at $1 for a day of eight hours, or 12^ cents per hour, under climatic conditions more try- ing than those of Nicaragua. In Nicaragua the negro works ten hours to the day and his wages and cost of subsistence amount to about 85 cents per day, say, 8^ cents per hour. Portland cement will be delivered at Nicaragua free of duty, the stone and sand can be had for the cost of transportation over the com- pany's railroad, and as to the effect of rain on the cost of the work, the whole structure can be j)rotected by temporary sheds, and that difficulty entirely obviated. The average price of $6 j)er cubic yard for concrete in locks in the company's estimate is ample, and responsible contractors in New York are ready to make contracts under bonds to do the work at that price. The prices for metal work, estimated by the company, are too high. The material can be had from Europe and all the work done at less cost than in the United States. As to the sluices and weirs there is no reason for changing the com- pany's estimates, which are regarded as ample to meet the require- ments. It has been stated that the 11^ miles of railroad built by the company through the most difficult portion of the line with insufficient plant and dealing with serious difficulties in landing the material cost at the rate of $32,411.18 per mile. The company has estimated the balance of the road to be built on the east side at $50,000 per mile, including turn-outs, switches, tanks, and temporary stations. The Board has estimated for a double-track road at $100,000 per mile, which is not regarded as necessary. In the western division the company has estimated for a single-track narrow-gauge road to conform with the Nicaragua Railroad. The Board estimates for a double-track standard-gauge railroad, which is not needed for construction work and would be objectionable to the IS'icaraguan Government as not conformable to their present system. 90 NICARAGUA CANAL. It is firmly believed that the company's unit prices for the works proposed are quite sufficient, and that the Board's increased cost of the work is uuAvarranted and is contradicted by known facts at hand and the fact that responsible contractors familiar with the country and the route of the canal are prepared to enter into contracts for building the whole work at about the company's estimated cost. STATEMENT OF COL. JAMES ANDREWS. Mr. Andrews said : Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen: I appear before you as a private citizen. I have thought and studied a great deal over this problem. It is somewhat in my line. I have spent my life on public works. I am here to'protest most earnestly against this Government being sad- dled with the cost of an enterprise to carry on which money enough can not be raised from individuals to pay for, the engineering. That gives it a very bad asjiect. One point I will call your attention to, which it seems to me is a vital one and I do not think has been alluded to, is the question of location. You take that map and go to England and ask the shii^owners and the public there where they would locate a crossing across the American Isthmus, find they would say Nica- ragua — everyone of them — because it would suit their business exactly and would be to the detriment and injury of American sea commerce. Mr. DooLiTTLE. My understanding was that Colonel Andrews is interested in the Tehuantepec Railroad, and that he would address himself to that subject. Mr. Andrews. I do not understand that that has any standing here. I am connected with that railroad, have been for many years, and will be glad to answer any questions that may be put in regard to it. Mr. Corliss. I think we should hear any objections to the Nicaraguan Canal scheme which Colonel Andrews may have to oflfer. Mr. Patterson. I think so, too. Mr. Andrews. I often hear of the Suez Canal as compared with the Nicaragua and Panama canals and with other canals. Allow me to say that there is no such thing as a canal at Suez. I have been there. There is no canal. There is a salt-water ditch at the sea level ; not a rock in the canal as big as a bean ; not a dam in it. Compare the loca- tion of the proposed Nicaragua Canal with a country in which there is never exceeding 2 inches of rainfall. There are no slides, no washing, excejit a little sand drifted in by the winds. Comi)are that with building a canal through a mountainous country, and as regards safety for the ships passing through the Suez Canal, with either of these proposed canals. It is absurd ! It is ridiculous ! This must stand on its own merits. The Suez Canal is through a sand drift, drifted by the winds, with the deepest cut 48 feet deep — pure sand. During my trip through there we met seven steamers. We never met one that we did not see go aground before we got out of sight of her. There was not a ship in that trip that went three-quarters of a mile without gi'ounding. Had it been a rock bottom, such as the proposed Nicaragua Canal, she would never have gotten another foot. No steamship, no iron ship especially, will go into a rock canal unless timber-cushioned in some way to save her from grinding along the rocks. She can not do it. You would rip her open from stem to stern, and every sea captain knows it. It can be lined up, but here is a proposed i^lan with i^erpendicular NICARAGUA CANAL. 91 sides from the water down to the bottom, blasted out; no estimate made for smootliiug and polishing the sides. You must assume it is left as the powder will leave it. You can not steer one of these ships in such a canal. The least pufi" of wind takes her from side to side; sets her swaying. Let a man stand on one of the docks at New York and see one of oar big ships making a landing. When she gets within 30 or 20 feet of the dock it takes her a quarter of an hour for fear of hurting herself, and then she comes up against a pine log — not a rock. 1 tell you, gentlemen, a canal down there is a fearful undertaking. Another point. The Suez Canal has ruined the English sailing ships; driven them off of the sea. Dig a canal where the American ship can not go, partly on account of the winds and on account of the expense of towing her, and the cheap English tramp steamer would go in there and would drive out all American ships. Never a single sailing ship has gone through the Suez Canal for the same reasons. Mr. Bennett. An ocean vessel or other vessel has wooden protectors. Would they not be available in the Nicaragua Canal"? Mr. Andrews. They hang small, little buffers over the sides. Mr. Bennett, Is that not enough^ Mr. Andrews. No, sir; they are loose. They would not save the bottom or the bilge, or the lower part of the ship. Slie would have to be encased with timber from the bottom up to go through a rock canal, especially if she is an iron ship. Now, our merchant marine to-day, all told, is 0,G00 and odd seagoing vessels; that is, they had this number a few years ago. Four hundred and twenty of those only are steamers. The balance are sailing ships. Dig a canal where the English tramj) and ship steamer can go through, and away go all your sailing ships; they are driven off' of the ocean. The only trade left for our large clii^per ships is the Pacific grain trade, going around Caiie Horn. Now, I say any i)olicy that will give the advantage to the cheap English steamer will drive them out of that trade, and you had better study the matter seriously or you will find you have ruined what little sea- going marine we have, and given a monopoly to the Englishman, who is laughing in his sleeve and waiting for it. The French Government took the risk and dug out the Suez ditch at a cost of over $90,000,(K>0. John Bull stepped in and carried oft' seven eighths of all the tonnage. He gobbled up the whole thing. The French have not added one steamer to their commercial marine; not one. Now, if you do not study it seriously you will probably find you have done the same thing for the States, so far as foreign traffic is concerned. The Englishmen will come in there, having steamers by the thousand. They go wherever they can get a cargo. The grant by Nicaragua to this Government says specifically that all nations shall be on an equal- ity; that there shall be no favoritism given. All ships that pay the toll shall be free to go through. The United States will build it and not use it. It seems to me foolish and very dangerous — taking all the risks and getting hardly any benefits. It is a monster undertaking. The idea of expending this money some 2,000 miles away when we have lots of places to put it; lots of them, without going there! Let indi- viduals dig all the canals they wish. I see by the papers and other- wise that the United States ought to gobble up, monopolize this crossing. Why, the world would be against any such thing — would not permit it. The Nicaraguan Government has sense enough to say you shall not do it; that it shall be as open as the ocean to the world's traffic. You can not monopolize it in any way. You can furnish the money, and the matter of cost in dollars is not very important; whether it as a hun- 92 NICARAGUA CANAL. dred million or five hundred million, I believe the United States could stand it. I see by reading the papers here that this bill provides for a capital of $300,000,000. The engineers estimate $60,000,000. There is $150,000,000 of stock and $150,000,000 of bonds. Three hundred million dollars for a work to cost less than $60,000,000! Something very queer there! I am no lawyer, but I can find nothing in this bill or any of these bills that have been before j'^ou for seven or eight years that shows any fixed quantity or stability. There is a grab of $4,500,000 that is to be taken out and paid to the gentlemen in New York. One gives $10,000,000 of paid-up stock, another $1,000,000. There is something strange in tliat; something unreliable; something you ought to get to the bottom of before you recoumiend such a bill. One of them provides for an issue of $75,000,000 stock and $75,000,000 bonds. Another of $150,000,000 stock and $150,000,000 bonds. Which is right, or are any of them right? I do not believe any of them are near right from my own experi- ence. As I have said, I have silent my life in these works. The Man- chester Canal, with which I am familiar, cost $77,000,000, built in the heart of England, with the most modern machinery that could be applied, runs up the Mersey Valley 30 miles, over the Mersey to Man- chester — $77,000,000 — and they are in debt, and last year it fell behind. Its revenues did not pay its working expenses. I have left that pajier in my room. I got it from Benjamin Baker a week ago. Mr. Patterson. Through what kind of a country does this canal run? Mr. Andrews. A beautiful country. Mr. Patterson. Is it a rocky country? Mr. Andrews. Partially, sandstone; mostly soil. Mr. Patterson. What kind of ships? Mr. Andrews. Mostly steamers — small steamers. One of these steamers a few months ago — I forget her name; I have it somewlierc — going down went into one of the locks with a little too much speed and took the gates out with her. I say, a canal proposed across the Ameri- can isthmus, with its dangers from floods, rainfalls, earthquakes, and other natural phenomena there, no human being could estimate the cost of maintaining or guaranteeing its maintenance for one week. The sliglitest injury to one of the locks and you are gone up. Every foot of the canal is worthless until it is repaired. The same with the dams. And there are no such dams as proposed here — in India or anywhere else. These gentlemen who have been severely criticised here this morning of course could not stand by and have borings made, but they sensibly say so and recommend an appropriation big enough to send down a commission with ample equipments and give them two years to make these tests. Then you will know what you are doing. Now, it is guesswork; but they do some good guessing. On page 77 of the report, coming to the proposed dam where borings had been made to 228 feet, on which no engineer of experience would found a dam or a lock. That is one, and if that is so — I have no doubt of it, because they did not make the borings — that is the key to the entire canal scheme, unless they get another location entirely. One bad dam, only one, or one badly founded lock would ruin the whole project. You catch a lot of ships bound for that canal, whether they have crossed the ocean or are on the way; they find a lock out of order. They are not provisioned or equipped to go around Cape Horn. They will have to go home, and I do not think they will ever go back to that canal again, even after it is repaired. It is a huge, monstrous undertaking. Money NICARAGUA CANAL. 93 will do it with plenty of time, but it is a fearful undertaking in its magni- tude to construct and a much more fearful one to maintain. It must work Sundays and Saturdays, day and night, or else it will be "dammed" without using rocks. Now, if there is any precedent anywhere for work of this kind, I would like to know where the precedent is. I will go and investigate it if there is such a precedent. I have never been able to find one in all my readings and travels. Mr. Patterson. Are you a practical engineer? Mr. Andrews. Sort of self-educated. I have been in many big works. I built the jetties at the mouth of the Mississippi Eiver and the masonry of the St. Louis Bridge; sunk those piers, one of them 112 feet below the surface, that weighed 44,000 tons. I have done work of that kind all my life. I have had hard, practical experience. I have had to hoe my own row in that respect, and that is where a man gets lessons. I tell you, too, with water as an enemy you have an enemy that never stops working ; it never tires. Start a small leak and it will get bigger. Mr. Patterson. Do I understand that there is no instance in the world where there is a canal excavated through rock that is used by large sea- going vessels'? Mr. Andrews. Not one that I have ever heard of or seen, and I have traveled, as I say, in almost every country— with the late Captain Eads all through Russia and the countries over there. We never found a single instance of that kind. There are some canals through which vessels of from 30 to 40 tons may pass, drawn by mules, wliere they may have rock banks, but never where a ship has gone through a canal with rock sides and rock bottom, and a ship drawing within a foot or two of all the water in it ; never one such instance. If there is such an instance, I would like to know where it is. Mr. Patterson. Will you name one, Mr. Menocal? Mr. Menooal. The Manchester Canal is more than half rock exca- vation, and there are ships of over 5,000 tons that pass through it. It is more than half rock, and with less depth than is proposed for the Nica- ragua Canal. The gentleman may have been there. I have been there for two years and am acquainted with the facts. Mr. Andrews. Yes, sir; and it is taken out as smooth as a plastered wall. Mr. Menocal. The question of locks, it seems to me, should not be discussed. The one lock can be i)assed without a minute's delay. Mr. Andrews. A lock with 10 feet lift only. Mr. Menocal. Two hundred and thirty-one days without a minute's delay, and it has been in operation since 1880. I think all the delay in that lock in that time has been a few hours, by reason of an accident which happened once to one of the valves. When I say about two hun- dred and thirty-one days, remember that 18,000 vessels went through it that year. That will give you an idea of how many had to pass in fourteen years, day and night. Mr. Patterson. What is the width? Mr. Menocal. Sixty and 80 feet. The one dam there is 60 feet wide, and that is stone. Mr. Andrews. Of cut stone. Mr. Menocal. I think the locks ought not to be discussed. With regard to rock excavation, I will say that more than one-half of the Manchester Canal is solid rock ; nothing but rock from the surface of the ground to the bottom. Mr. Andrews. I will give you what was given to me in a letter. 94 NICARAGUA CANAL. There were but two ships last year, prior to their last report, that went up to Manchester and got cargoes for foreign countries. There were nothing but small boats, except these two foreign ships, that went up that canal in one year. That is the state of facts, and they crawl and creep along there. There is no current. As I said, the canal is exca- vated to a considerable extent through red sandstone and is exceed- ingly smooth. Of course, ships can go into a lock, but those locks have but 16 feet lift, instead of 45 or 50 feet. They are much safer and less liable to give way from the huge mass of water and i)ressure in these enormous locks. They are not subject to big rainfalls or to slidefii Here are hundreds of feet of hillsides slipping down into these canals. One cart load of rock there, and a ship may run onto it in the night and stop there until a dredge boat is brought to take it up. It is surrounded with so many difficulties that no private individuals will put their money in it. I can not see why the Government should be asked to do it. Let them build it. Let individuals build a dozen canals ; but why saddle a thing of that kind, that individuals are afraid of, on the people of the United States ? That is a mystery. It is such a grand thing and so cheap, and so easy to construct! Lots of cai)ital ought to go into it if those are facts. If they are not facts, private individuals will not put their money into it. Do as the French are doing at Panama — not with the aid of the French Government. We are met every day with the threat that if the American Government does not put this thing through immediately, England will take it up. If that is not enough to make old man Monroe turn over in his grave, I do not know what will. England come over and dig a canal? Not much. John Bull will wait for Americans to do it, and then send his steamers through. Where are we going to get our share of if? We will get it in divi- dends. We will never send a ship through there in competition unless there is a tariff — some way of giving our ships an advantage over John Bull. He can not interfere with our coast trade, bu.t in foreign trade, where there is open competition, the cheapest man will get the freight every time. Now, I say some scheme ought to be devised by which a sailing ship, of which we have over 6,000, can fight for a living against the English steamer. Give them a chance. Put them on an equality. But the laws here prohibit that. The sailing ship is to get no cheaper rate of toll, the American ship no cheai)er tolls, unless they ignore the concessions. All are to be on the same footing. There is to be no transfer of the lauds granted or of the franchises to any foreign Gov- ernment or other power. No doubt you have read it. There is no use in my taking up your time to read these clauses, but yet, if I understand it, the United States Government is admitted, sub- stantially, the owner. They are to get the majority of the stock. You buy a majority of the stock, and the property is yours, as I understand it. There is some kind of a hocus-pocus process of that kind going through, I beheve, and then what good will it do them after they buy it if they have to let the Englishmen use it. You must get a monopoly of it. Keep an army there if necessary. It is to be the world's high- way, open to every nation and to all people, on a big, broad scale. Now, I can not for the life of me understand why they come here and ask the United States Government to tax the people to the amount of hundreds of millions to dig a canal that there are still some private individuals in. Let them dig it for themselves, gentlemen. I have no doubt you can send a man down there and buy out Nicaragua bodily for $200,000 or $300,000 and then build the canal yourself. Mr, Bennett. I object to that going in the record. NICARAGUA CANAL. 95 Mr. Andrews. I mean buying the right of way. Mr. Bennett. I object to auy sucli criticism of a frieudly Govern- ment. Mr. Andrews. All right. The Chairman. It is not criticism by anybody but this gentleman. I do not see any objection to it. Mr. Andrews. I think the right of way can be obtained there. There was $100,000 paid for the right of way. I think another $100,000 woukl get it for the United States Government alone without buying out this one that individuals have had in hand for several years. That is what I mean, and the Governments there I think are deserving of fair treatment. They are poor and weak. But why they should be trampled on and their restrictions ignored is what I can not understand. I do not think the English language can be clearer than this clause where they say that this shall not be transferred. If you will excuse me, I will read : Article 7. The present cession shall be transferrable only to such company or com- pauies as may be organized for the purpose of constructing or operating the canal, and in no case to foreign Governments or to foreign public powers. Now, that is a sensible clause for the Nicaraguan Government to put in, I think. Mr. Wanger. Is that the American report? Mr. Andrews. It is in the Senate report here — Mr. Sherman's report of 1894 from the Senate committee. Now, these are conditions put in by the Government of Costa Rica. Nicaragua has a similar restriction and conditions to prevent its transfer. It says none of the lands shall be transferred, none of the right of way, etc. But these things are all before you, gentlemen. I do not wish to take up your time with those, but I think they are worthy of close study and examination j but see what you are doing before you put this thing out of your power and out of your reach. That Commission, I presume, were honest people; I pre- sume so. I do not know any of them. They went over this route in a rapid manner, got their data largely from the maps, plans, and that given by the company's engineers, and they point out a number of things here that I think all the civil engineers in the United States of practical experience will back up and say are right. There is a good deal of difference between practice and theory, especially in these large works. It is so easy to figure up so many cubic yards and say how much it will cost per cubic yard. If it is dry work upon the face of the earth it can be well estimated, but sink foundations down below the water level, with water coming in on you, I do not know how any man can estimate the cost of keeping that dry at all until he gets his foundations in. Adam must have a water tight bottom over its whole area able to stand the pressure. It must not start leaking. If it does, that leak will keep on increasing, and I do not know how you will repair it except to tear it out. But I say these leaks will always be a menace to constant, steady navigation, so great that I think it will always deter private capital. If not, let individual capital build it. We will get all the benefit in that way just as much as if the Government built it, if all nations are treated alike and put on the same footing. And the danger is, gentlemen, if I am right, and as a matter of common sense, first and foremost, the lack of winds there. I have a statement here from the late Lieutenant Maury, the most eminent authority that ever wrote on the subject, stating that if through some convulsion in the neighborhood of Panama, 400 miles of Nicaragua, a gap were opened through that isthmus as wide as the Strait of Dover — 20 miles — no sailing ship would ever avail herself of it on 96 NICARAGUA CANAL. accouut of the lack of winds and on account of the tropical currents in the Caribbean Sea. Mr. Patterson. My information is, Colonel Andrews, that those conditions do not exist at Greytown and Brito. Mr. Andrews. Not to the same extent. I have printed letters from Commodore Selfridge and three or four others saying that the winds there are very uncertain. There are several months in the year of what the sailors call "doldrums" — sudden gusts of wind from all points of the compass in which a sailing ship may be drifting around for months unless she can pay for towage, and towage down there is very expensive, and it would be very dangerous to tow a shij) through into the lakes and out of the lakes and through the canal and through these deep cuts. A wooden sailing ship I am sure would not go through. Mr. DooLiTTLB. Don't you know that Lieutenant Maury says that these conditions do not apply to Nicaragua, but do apply to Panama? Mr. Andrews. No, sir; I do not so understand it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. If you read it, you will see he says so. Mr. Andrews. I say it becomes less and less as you come up north, but still a sailing ship will have a very uncertain voyage if she enters even near Nicaragua during certain seasons of the year. At other times of the year they can get along pretty well. But leaving that aside, she can not aiibrd to pay for towage. Her crew would be idle during the time the vessel was towed, and another crew would have to be employed. I have seen some of that in New Orleans. When we finished the jetties work there the English steamers commenced com- ing in there by the dozen, and they are doing it every day, and the sailing ship has been driven out. The trade is monopolized now by the English cheap steamers, because of the cost of towage against the sail- ing ship up and down the river. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Would not the building of this canal stimulate the building of steamships in the United States'? Mr. Andrews. I think not, as long as the competition with the European steamer is not hampered so as to give the advantage to the American ship. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But the tendency would bo, would it not, to stimu- late the building of steamers'? Mr. Andrews. Not unless our steamers could be built at a price to compete with the English steamer, because there has been and is com- Ijetition; no protection to the American steamer, except on our coast trade. On the foreign trade, wheat going from San Francisco to Europe, we can not give the steamer any i^rotection. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What steamers is that grain carried in now? Mr. Andrews. They are largely American ships — large clipper ships. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Don't you know that out of more than eighty ships that left Pnget Sound, wheat laden, and a considerable larger number from Portland, there was not 3 per cent of American sailing ships'? Mr, Andrews. I have no doubt of that, but bad as that is it is the only trade left. There are no sailing shijis now between our Eastern States and Europe. They can not compete; and it is going to be the same there. I think you will aggravate the evil if you adopt and carry out such a plan as the one proposed. I am satisfied, however, that a method can be adopted that will put the sailing ship on an equality with the steamer. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What is our proportion of sailing ships compared with the English ? Mr. Andrews. I can not answer that. I can only give you the sta- tistics of a few years ago, when our sea marine consisted of 6,000 and NICARAGUA CANAL. 97 odd ships of all sizes and kinds. Out of that number only 420 were steamers. I think the same condition exists yet, and if you want to stimulate the American commercial marine you are not going to do it by letting the English ship come in. We ought to have steamers, but unfortunately we have not, and can not get them. We can beat the world building these fine, big clipper ships. No nation can compete with us. We have the timber and materials for building these ships cheaper than they can be built anywhere in the world. But we have not reached the point where we can build the steamer as cheap as England can build it and in Europe. Kow, I think it will be a serious mistake to cripple what little shipi^ing we have and stimulate what shipping Eng- land has, but this plan if carried out would certainly do that very thing. I think this phase of the subject is worthy of your most i)rofound thought and study and examination. If we can get across from the Gulf of Mexico that is the American route. Let us send all the trade into the Gulf of Mexico. I think the United States would be justified in going to war to prevent the building of either of these canals pro- vided you can get a transit from the Gulf of Mexico across into the Pacific, easily protected and cheap. Now, I am not here to advocate that, because it has no standing before you, but I will say that if any of you wish any information in regard to this jiroposed plan I shall be glad to give it to the best of my ability. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You refer to the Tehuantepec Ship Eailway? Mr. Andrews. Yes, sir; in which I have been interested for many years, from its beginning. Mr. VV ANGER. Located where? Mr. Andrev/s. (Points out route on map.) Direct from the mouth of the Mississippi River. Mr. Patterson. What is the distance? Mr. Andrews. One hundred and thirty-two miles, and the highest summit is 730 feet, or about 200 feet higher than the Washington Monument. The surveys have all been perfectly made; nine hundred thousand and some odd dollars have been expended in the surveys. It has been surveyed until not an inch of ground will have to be gone over again. Mr. Patterson. This is to be a ship canal? Mr. Andrews. Purely a ship canal, built big enough to hold a modern dry dock on wheels, taking it across there on straight lines. I have hundreds of certificates of its practicability from the ablest mechanical shipbuilding engineers in the world, from our own country and England. Mr. Joy. What is to hinder this railway from being built? Mr. Andrews. The sole spirit of it was the late Captain Eads. While struggling to get it on its feet he died. Then the few of us who were left got Mr. Windom to take the presidency of the company and help us to go on with it. He was thoroughly embarked in that when he died. We then got Mr. Thau, vice-president of the Pennsylvania Railroad, to take hold of it. He invested largely and we were i:)rogress- ing well when he also died; and the fact is, now there are hardly any of the promoters left. Of late, however, within the last sixty days, I have met with more encouragement to build it than I have before had. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You always do when it looks favorable for the Nicaragua Canal. Mr. Andrews. No, sir; the very reverse. When this thing is buried, as I think it ought to be, we will start the ship railway and build it quickly, and there the American ships will get fair treatment, in home or foreign trade. N 7 98 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Patterson. What is the estimated cost of tliis railway? Mr. Andrews. I would answer in this way: It would depend upon the maximum ship that is to be carried whether we use G, 8, or 10 rails. For a 0,OOU-ton ship the cost would be something below $50,000,000. For an 8,000 or 10,000 ton ship it will take two more rails and cost in proportion. The route is exceedingly favorable. The first 53 miles of the route will be as easy to build as through the center of the State of Illinois. It is an open prairie. This 53 miles could be built in a few months, and this would be more than a third of the distance. There are two very heavy lills. The rest of the work is exceedingly light. As to the apparatus, I have estimates from men of experience in this line. We can lift any ship up to 10,000 tons to any height less than 50 feet and put it on a car ready for transportation in twenty minutes at either terminus of the road. I have bona fide bids from these parties, and their letters are printed here in some of these pamphlets I have. Mr. Patterson. I am not advised on the subject. Is there any such railroad in operation? Mr. Andrews. On a small scale; yes, sir. The first railroad ride I ever had in my life was on a ship railway on a small scale. It was a bolder undertaking to construct such a road at that time than it is now. That was a railroad with i^ine scantling for the rail, a flat bar nailed on it. It ran from Philadelphia to Columbia, a place below Harrisburg. It carried a canal boat; had four cast-iron wheels. At the point men- tioned the boat was run into the canal and hauled up the Juniata Eiver to Hollidaysburg, and put on the cars again and hauled over the Alle- ghany Mountains to Pittsburg. That was a ship railway. Mr. Fletcher. What elevation? Mr. Andrews. About 2,500 feet above the sea, over the Alleghany Mountains, very nearly parallel to the Pennsylvania Eailroad. There is a boat in Sweden I saw a short time ago. It is small, only 80 feet long. It is provided with four wheels, common railway wheels. The axles run through the hull of the boat. She is a paddle-wheel ferry boat. There was a long, projecting promontory there she had to go around to reach her destination, a city on the other side. They laid a common railroad track, with timber on either side. She runs right in, her momentum carrying her on to the railroad. The engineer gears his machinery, and she travels a mile and a half into the water again. These things are exceedingly common, gentlemen. It is only a railway on a larger scale than we have been accustomed to. All things we have are growing larger and larger. Mr. DooLiTTLE. That even applies to locks of canals? Mr. Andrews. Yes, sir; and so are the ships you have to handle growing larger; so are railroad bridges and railroads themselves. If you will allow me just a moment I will touch upon this subject, as we hQ.ve commenced upon it. It is an interesting question. It has been before the Ilouse and before the Senate in Captain Eads's time repeat- edly. It was referred to the Senate committee for examination and report, and the report was certainly favorable after a most thorough investigation. I would like to be permitted to read this report for you gentlemen's information. On March G, 1882, the Committee on Commerce of the United States Senate submitted a report. No, 213, first session Forty-seventh Congress, on the then pending bill to incor- porate the Interoceanic Shij) Kailroad Company, the first paragraph of which reads as follows : The first question the committee considered was as to the iiracticability of cou- stinclin;,' a railway for the purpose of transportinjj ships and their cargoes. The tt'-stimouy before the committee conclusively demonstrates the fact that such a rail- NICAEAGUA CANAL. 99 way ia entirely practicable, and that loaded vessels can be transported over the same ■with absolute safety and econouiy. The committee does not consider it necessary to go into the details of the proposition, but refers to the following testimony upon the subject, given by the most prominent and able engineers and architects in the world. The subcommittee which took this testimony, upon which this unre- served favorable report was based, consisted of three exceedingly able men to take u^) such a subject. One of them was Senator Vest, of Missouri; the second was Senator Conger, of Michigan, aud, ablest of all, Senator Warner Miller, of N^ew York. They recommended it as most practicable. This matter, gentlemen, has been very thoroughly cauvassed. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What year was that report? Mr. Andrews, The rei)ort was made March 6, 1882, from the Com- mittee on Commerce of the United States Senate, first session of the Forty-seventh Congress. It gives the testimony, I suppose, of 100 shipbuilders, dock men, etc. A very popular objection to this is the supposed danger to a ship with a cargo on board in taking her out of the water. Gentlemen, facts, facts are what we want in such matters, not theories. Mr. William F. Buckley, president of the New York Bal- ance Dock, in a letter to Mr. Eads, in 1881, gives the following list of vessels taken out: Ship Great Yietoria. 2,380 tons; ship Trmmpliant^ 2,040 tons; ship Ameiicana, 2,054 tons; shij) HcKjerstown^ 1,903 tons; ship 8. C. BJanchard, 1,903 tons; ship Colorado^ 2,705 tons; the Rio Grande, and so on, and steamers Moriarch, State of Nevada^ and so on; and then he closes with this: We do not refuse any class of ships or steamers, even with their coals and cargoes on board, whoso length does not exceed the length of the dock. In every case where we have taken up steamers witli cargoes it has been done without the least strain or injury to the vessel, but as the rule is to make a charge for cargo they usually come without cargo. But if they come with cargo they are taken up. Captain Samuels, one of the most noted ship captains to-day, told me he sailed an Ameri- can packet from New York to Liverpool — the ship Drignort. She encountered a severe gale before getting to the Irish coast and sprung a leak, and he said all hands were kept at the pumps for over a week to keep her afloat. And when she got to Liverpool she happened to reach there just at the right time to make one of the docks, and the ship was put right in the dock with her cargo and feet of water in her hold without the slightest injury to the ship. Why, gentlemen, to dock a ship nowadays with or without cargo — it is not necessary to dis- cuss it. The only reason why they are not taken out with their cargoes every day is because their cargoes necessarily add a great deal to their weight, and so it is more expensive; and besides that, the owners gen- erally want the cargo as quickly as xiossible. But if the ship is in trouble they dock her, cargo and all. There is no danger from that source; none whatever. I maintain that if there is a possibility of building a ship transit that will carry ships quickly and safely, all sorts and kinds, all on an equal- ity so far as cost is concerned, and that is closer to our own country than any other project, that is the American route. That is what ought to be encouraged. It is near home. It does not come in contact with any doubtful claims, such as the Clayton-Bulwer treaty, that some claim is still in force, by the terms of which it was agreed that neither nation would build a crossing across the Isthmus without the other joining. I do not know whether that is so. But in any case this is the American route. By this route i^lenty of winds are had. We carry sailing ships and charge so much a ton, and the same as to steamships; and there- fore the sailing shii) if she can compete will have an opi)ortunity to do it. 100 NICARAGUA CANAL. Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, House of Kepresentatives, WasM7igton, 1). C, Friday^ Api-il 17^ 1896. The committee met at 11 a. m,, Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair. STATEMENT OF MR. M. T. ENDICOTT, CIVIL ENGINEER, UNITED STATES NAVY, OF THE BUREAU OF YARDS AND DOCKS, NAVY DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Yon may take your own course as to the method of making your remarks, and after you have finished your statement the members will ask such questions as suggest themselves. Please state your full name anrito and passed the night. Up to this time nothing had been seen of the canal. On the following morning thoy went to Brito, leaving camp about 7 o'clock a. m. Arriving at Brito they stayed there, and the gentlemen had time to take baths and look around a little. They then came back to the same camp, following more or less the line of the canal. The other days were spent in traveling. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Mr. Menocal stated that he was speaking from memory and not from notes, but he referred us to his written statement as being certain on these points. Mr. Endicott. 1 was not aware of that, but I am anxious to show the facts. Mr. DooLiTTLE. He said he was making this statement from memory. Mr. Endicott. 1 would like the lU'ivilege of correcting the record in this respect. He states that up to that date nothing had been seen of the canal [reading from diary] : On May 29, and the morning after onr arrival in Rivas, we inspected the canal route, the valley of the Rio Grande, following down tlie river, striking and examin- ing the line at various points and the site of the La Flor Dam, camping 3 miles from Brito. On May .30, at Uritn Harbor and vicinity. Here we studied the const lines on both sides of the mouth of the Rio Grande, where the canal is to strike the Pacific Ocean; examined into the geological formations and points bearing upon the con- struction and use of a harbor at this point. We rode down south side of the valley and returned on north side. Examined sites of Lock No. (3 and tidal basin below Lock No. 6, returning to the camp we had left in the morning. May 31, examined canal line to Locks 4 and 5, and thence to La Flor Dam site, out- croppings, borings, etc.; in afternoon "we went up trails through the valley and visited lock site in excavation. June 1, went over the canal lino to lake shore and to site of diversions of Rio Grande, if canal is built in excavation. Examined mouth of Lajas, site of piers, etc. June 2 (Sunday), party surveying mouth of Lajas, levels of lake. June 3, no work. June 4, no work. June 5, on lake, inspected harbor under lee of Ometepe, taking soundings, etc. June 6, returning by steamer; no work. June 7, arrived at San Carlos; no work beyond observations and views of approaches. Juno 8, on river, San Carlos to Castillo; observed the navigation from hurricane deck and high-water marks on the border of the river. June 9, from Castillo to Ochoa, observing the navigation, country on banks, etc.; at Ochoa at 11 a. m., camping at site of Ochoa Dam; inspected 1^ miles of canal line and returned over the ridge line, visiting loca- tions of numerous borings. .lune 10, to south abutment of Ochoa Dam, on opposite side of river, and followed dam and San Carlos ridge line south 7 miles. June 11, 3 miles further on San Carlos Ridge (10 in all), and then to river San Carlos, and back to camp in canoes, via San Carlos and San Juan rivers. June 12, left Ochoa, follow- ing embankment line and canal line; inspected locations of guard g.ates, cmbank- nieuts, borings, etc., and camped by Danta River. June 13, followed canal line, neap Florida Lagoon, and embankment line to cam]i, San Francisco, loft bank. June 14, San Francisco to Chanchos, walking over embankment line and returning to camp NICARAGUA CANAL, 103 hy river; in the afternoon, np San Francisco and landed, and walked bade over canal line; inspected locations of cuts and other works in vicinity, and gauged streams — San Francisco and Nicholson. June 15, took canoes to Chanclios, and thence followed embanknieut line to Camp Carmen on Limpio, about 5 miles; in the afternoon back over canal line. June 16, left Camp Carmen by canal line, and on to Camp Alice on Lindo, 2| miles; canal in excavation here on. Took breakfast at Camp Alice. Up Deseado, 2 miles, to exam- ine geological formations and matter of possible diversions. June 17, left Camp Alice, crossed Divide, following canal line closely, examined site of Ueseado Dam, and Lock No. .3 to south of it. June 18, on to Camp Menocal, over canal line. Left this camp at noon; inspected sites of Lock No. 2 and dams, and reached Camp No. 7 .it 2 p. m. Thence to site of Lock No. 3 and dam site, and thence by railroad to Grey- town. June 19, took steamer to inspect Colorado mouth of the San Juan River, bar, etc. .Tune 20. examined and surveyed mouth of Colorado, and returning sketched the river to junction with San .Tuan. June 21, sent surveying party off to Serapiqui River; no work. June 22, lagoon and shore-line surveys," etc., completed. June 23, getting ready to leave. June 21, sailed for Port Limon. Davis spent nine days after June 22 in surveys about Serapiqui. My record sliows that we spent forty two days iu Nicaragua, and of that time thirty-four were spent in an examination of the physical fea- tures of the canal route. This is actual held work. I wish to say that we fully realized the importance of the duty imposed upon us; that it was a question of interest, not only to this country, but to the whole world. We felt that we had been highly honored by the President in being selected for this duty, and we went down to Nicaragua with the determination to see all and to learn all we could about the canal route; to study the matter carefully, and to give our best judgment in regard to it. Mr. Stewart. Did you start out with any preconceived notions as to the feasibility of the canal? Did you have any personal oj)inion about it? Mr. Endicott. No, sir; I did not. When we departed from the country a surveying party was left there to make some surveys and to look into the matter of a site for a low dam on the San Juan Eiver below Ochoa. That party spent nine days there after we left for Panama, and that time added to the other would make forty-three days of field- work instead of fourteen or fifteen, as credited. The time spent in Costa Rica and Panama was also very important. We learned a great many things about the cost of labor and about the influence of the rains and the climate upou the work which had been done in building the Panama Canal and the Costa Rica railway. Mr. Stewart. Are not the climatic conditions different in Panama from what they are in Grey town? Mr. Endicott. There is some difference. The climate is more favor- able in Nicaragua. There was very little sickness in connection with the work on the Nicaragua Canal; but I expect when they get into the hills and expose the clay banks the conditions will probably be very different. We found that in Costa Rica and Panama parties experi- enced very little difficulty until they struck the actual work of con- struction, when sickness began. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is it not a fact that that is always the case when virgin soil is being removed? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir; that is generally true. Mr. Stewart. The plan is favored by you, but your objection is the cost and the unhealthiness of the employment? Mr. Endicott. We differ as to cost, but I think the plan is not feasible in its present shape. It is not practicable. Mr. Stewart. Could it be made so if it were modified ? Mr. Endicott. Oh, yes 3 I am fully satisfied the canal can be built. 104 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is it not a mere matter of working- out the details? Mr. Endicott. It is a matter of working out the details, of course. There are some important things underlying it in which I think the company is not quite right. Several Members. Tell us what those things are. Mr. Endicott. Their scheme jirovides for an interoceanic canal 28 feet deep. The present scheme will give only 24 feet for a large x)or- tion of the year, because it is founded upon the supposition of a slope of 4 feet in the river from the lake to Ochoa, and the Ochoa Dam, San Francisco and San Carlos embankments, etc., are regulated in height for a water surface of lOG at Ochoa, and 110 at the lake; and the ques- tion is whether they can maintain the lake at 110 feet above sea level. We are satisfied from our investigation and calculations, carefully made, and in which we agree that the work on the San Francisco embankments, the lockage, Ochoa Dam, and San Carlos Eiver embank- ments must all be raised to maintain a water elevation at Ochoa of 110 feet or more. If not, the water will drop to the level of 106 feet at the lake every dry season. Mr. Stewart. These calculations are not embraced in your report? Mr. Endicott. The formula is not. Mr. Stewart. Would this fall from 28 to 24 feet make a serious objection? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir; I think so. Yon must remember that a l)art of the San Juan Elver has rock bottom, and this fall would give navigation only for vessels drawing 22 feet or less of water. Mr. Doolittle. What is the depth of the Suez Canal? Mr. Endicott. It was originally 2G feet. It has now been deepened to 29^ feet. Mr" Doolittle. Was it 26 feet when it was built? Mr. Endicott. I think so. Mr. Doolittle. What is the depth of the Manchester Canal? Mr. Endicott. The Manchester Canal is 20 feet. Mr. Sherman. On page 58 of Mr. Meiiocal's statement he says the Suez Canal was originally 22 feet deep. Mr. Endicott. Possibly it was; if so, it has been enlarged twice. The Suez Canal was designed for a larger cross section than was originally given it. It was found that its cost was exceeding the estimates so much that the dimensions were reduced. Mr. Bennett. How long did you spend in the immediate vicinity of the Ochoa Dam ? Mr. Endicott. Two days. Mr. Bennett. Do you consider that length of time enough to make a proper investigation and enable you to report on the feasibility of a work of such magnitude? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir; unless we had gone into extensive surveys or borings. We had not time or money for that. So far as observing the site, the time was sufficient. Mr. Patterson. In the judgment of the Commission, this canal is practicable? Mr. Endicott. The canal is practicable. Mr. Patterson. And when constructed it would answer all the pur- poses of commerce which have been attributed to it by its friends? Mr. Endicott. I think so. Mr. Stewart. Do you agree with the New York Tlerald that it would be a feature of weakness in our military or naval status if we should build the Nicaragua Canal? NICARAGUA CANAL. 105 Ml'. Endicott. I think in case of war with a country like Great ik'itaiu Ave niij>iit have to blow np the locks and abandon it. I do not think we could hold it against Great Britain. Mr. DooLiTTLE. If we had strength equal to theirs we could. Mr. Endicott. I am speaking of the present time. Mr. Stewart. We are strengthening our naval force? Mr. Endicott. Yes. Mr. Patterson. You say the Nicaragua Canal is practicable, and when constructed it will answer all the purposes which have been attributed to it by its friends. At what cost, in the judgment of your Commission, can this work be done? Mr. DooLiTTLE. I would suggest " in accordance with the plans of Mr. Menocal." Mr. Patterson. No; I want his own idea. Mr. Endicott. The actual construction will cost $133,000,000, not iucluding the interest on the money during construction. Mr. Patterson. You think that with $133,000,000 this Government could construct the Nicaragua Canal, and give a depth of 28 feet, which would answer all purposes of commerce? Mr. Endicott. I think it would give a depth of 30 feet. Mr. Bennett. Thirty feet of navigable water? Mr. Endicott. A depth of 30 feet of water. Mr. Patterson. Do you think that when this canal is constructed there will be any difficulties in the way of navigation? Do you think that large ships could go through that without difficulty? Mr. Endicott. If built as recommended by the Board, I think they could. Mr. Patterson. What do you mean? Mr. Endicott. We have recommended the widening of the prism in the lake. We think there ought to bo 250 feet width in the river, while the canal company contemplates only 125. We think that is not enough for the river, because it is much more difficult to navigate a channel of a given width in an open expanse of water than between banks, and in the upper San Juan the excavated channel will have rocky bottom and sides. Mr. Patterson. Would you advise the United States to undertake at once, with the necessary modifications of the Menocal plan, to con- struct this canal? Mr. Endicott. If the Government is going into the matter of the building of a canal I would advise it. Mr. Patterson. If the Government is going into the construction of a canal, you would advise us to construct it with the modifications which you propose? Mr. Corliss. Do you think it is advisable to go into the construction of a canal? Mr. Endicott. I think this Government ought to have a waterway between the Atlantic and the Pacific. Mr. Corliss. From what point of view? Mr. Endicott. I think it is important from a military point of view. Mr. Corliss. Is there any other point which you think is as desirable or advantageous as the Nicaragua site? Mr. Endicott. I can not say that I know of any other. One might be found at greater cost, perhaps. I think, in some respects, the Tehuantepec route is an ideal one, but there may be some difficulties of an engineering character to render it very costly. From a strategic point of view it is the better of the two, as it could be more easily defended. It would also be a shorter route for our commerce. 106 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Patterson. Do yon think from the mere fact that the excava- tion is through rock that tliere wonld be present any serious obstacles to the navigation of this canal at oO feet! Mr. Endicott. Not if it is built of the proper width. Mr. Patterson. It has been argued here forcibly and earnestly by at least one gentleman that this canal, being excavated through rock, it would be practically impossible to navigate it with large steamers. He said that the canal at Manchester is not used by large steamers ; that it is impracticable to do so, and we might find that this canal could not be used for the i)urposes of commerce, as contemplated by its friends. What is your judgment in regard to tliaf? Mr. Endicott. I think it could be used for the purposes of com- merce. Mr. Patterson. You know of no physical difficulties in the way? Mr. Endicott. No, sir. Mr. Patterson. You have compared the Nicaragua Oanal with the Panama route. Is it not a fact that there is less rainfall than in Panama? Mr. Endicott. Not on the east coast. Mr. Patterson. It is on the west coast? Mr. Endicott. In the interior, Mr. Patterson. Is it not true thnt at Panama on either side there is such a calm as would prevent sailing vessels from using that route, whereas at Nicaragua the trade winds prevail, and it could be used both by sailing and steam vessels'? Mr. Endicott. I think so. Nicaragua is more favorable in that respect than Panama for sailing vessels. Mr. Patterson. And notwithstanding the Nicaragua Canal would cost $133,000,000, according to your plan, you believe ibhat, even at that expenditure, it would be the best and cheapest for the Gl»vernment to adopt? Mr. Endicott. That is my personal impression. I do not know what it would cost to complete tlie Panama Canal. They claim it can be done for $100,000,000, I do not know whether that is true or not. We have not looked into that. I think the advantages at Nicaragua are considerable, and such as might outweigh the question of the cost. The Chairman. What is the present condition of the work that has been done by the company as you observed it at Grey town — for instance, the harbor works? IVIr. Endicott. Tlie harbor works are in pretty bad condition. The navigation which they once had there is lost by reason of the entrance being destroyed. The pier is in bad condition, and is decayed and worm-eaten. The Chairman. Is anything remaining of the work of present value to this enterprise? Mr. Endicott. Not much. The pier I do not consider of any value. The Chairman. Would not the work thus far done have to be removed, in order to give ])lace to that sufficient work that you recom- mend under your plan? Mr. Endicott. A considerable part of it would. Under our plan the entrance and a good deal of the work would be abandoned. They have a short section of canal about a mile long, excavated about IG feet or more, and a portion not quite so dee]>. This stands in good condition. That, I think, cost less than $100,000. They have some buildings, a hospital and otfice, and they have some dwellings and some plant, but the i)lant is in bad shaj)e. I do not think there is much else of value. NICARAGUA CANAL. 107 Th3 Chairman. As an engineer, at what would you estimate tlie present value of all the work done on that enterprise? Mr. Endicott. Speaking roughly, I should say half a million dollars. The Chairman. Did you examine the working plant owned by the company? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Of what does it consist? Mr. Endicott. It consists of five dredges which they bought from the Panama Canal Company. They are sunk in the harbor, and are in a dilapidated condition. Some of the machinery might be used, but the woodwork is about worthless at the present time. There has been considerable imi^rovement in machinery, which renders this obsolete in a large job of this kind. The tugboats and scows ar^ l)adly rusted and decayed. They have two or three locomotives in lair condition, and they have 11^ miles of railroad. The Chairman. In your estimate of $500,000 do you include the railroad and telepraph line and the locomotives? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir; the locomotives are not worth much. Of course, I am speaking roughly. The Chairman. At what would you regard the present value of the five dredges? Mr. Endicott. I do not think they are worth over $150,000 — prob- ably not worth that. The Chairman. If you had a contract to dredge out that harbor and the canal, where dredging is possible, would you, as an engineer, use those dredges there, in view of the improved implements of that char- acter which are now obtainable? Mr. Endicott. I think not, for so expensive a job. I think it would pay to abandon them and purchase more improved machinery. Mr. Stewart (to the chairman). I think it would probably be better to give the value of the work at the time it was completed, because it would be unfair that the company should have that cost estimated when it is in a degenerate condition, as it now stands, because the plant has done considerable work. The Chairman. Yet the Government, if it is to become the pur- chaser, should know what it is going to get. Mr-i Patterson. I understand Mr. Stewart to mean that the plant has accomplished a certain amount of work, and we can not estimate the value of the plant as it stands to-day. Mr. Endicott. Do you mean the value of the plant when work was stopped ? Mr. Patterson. Yes, sir. Mr. Endicott. Eunning the matter rapidly through my mind, I should say it was probably worth $1,250,000. Mr. Doolittle. Does that include all the surveys which were run there? Mr. Endicott. No; it does not include the cost of the surveys. Mr. Doolittle. Do you know how many miles of line were run by the surveyors? Mr. Endicott. I have heard they ran something like three or fonr thousand miles. Mr. Doolittle. From your knowledge of the country down there and the character of work, what would you say was the valne of that? Mr. Endicott. Probably half a million dollars. It costs a great deal to make surveys extending over a long term in that country. Mr. Patterson. Assuming that the changes which you have in con- 108 NICARAGUA CANAL. templatiou are not made, eoiild the canal, as contemplated by its pro- moters and as outlined by Mr. Menocal, be constructed within the limitation of $65,000,000? Mr. Endicott. I think not. Mr. Patterson. Then you think that the chanfces which yon have indicated in the report of the commission would amount to the dilfer- ence between 105,000,000 and $133,000,000! Mr. Endicott. No, sir. Mr. Patterson. What do you estimate the cost of the chanj^es which you have snogested? Mr. Endicott. I would like to refer you to Mr. Noble as to that, in order to show where the increased cost is. He has prepared tables showing just where the increases are, and can give it to you more quickly and accurately than 1 can. For instance, the increase due to errors in the computations of the canal company would amount to about $4,000,000 at their own prices. Mr. Patterson. You have no estimate of it? Mr. Endicott. 1 have none. The report we made would show it if it was worked out. Mr. Noble has gone through that. Mr. Patterson. You say there were errors in the calculations as submitted to you? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. Mr. Doolittle. Of what did they consist? Mr. Endicott. They made a mistake of a million cubic yards in the rock excavation in the San Juan River. This amounts to $5,000,000 increase in the estimates. They have reduced the price of rock exca- vation in the river from $5 to $3 in their last estimates, making an increase of $3,000,000, according to their own price. Then they niade an error of about one million cubic yards in the dredging in earth in the San Juan River, and an error of about half a million cubic yards of dredging in the lake, which amount to about $4,000,000 at the canal company's prices. Mr. Doolittle. The amount of material to be removed was not given as it should be? Mr. Endicott. They made some error. Mr. Doolittle. More than they made allowance for? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. Mr. Bennett. Do you believe, even after your superficial examina- tion, that this investigation was close enough to enable you to estimate the cost of the work for the whole canal? Mr. Endtcot']'. Approximately. There can not be any exact esti- mate, because I think that the examinations and surveys of the canal company have not been exhaustive enough to make a close estimate. That is one reason why we recommended additional surveys. Mr. Bennett. It might cost some less? Mr. Endicott. It might cost some less, and it might cost some more. Mr. Bennett. Mr. Menocal insists that $70,000,000 would complete it. Do you think that is true, according to Mr. Menocal's plan? Mr. Endicott. I think not. Mr. Doolittle. You would not be willing, upon your professional reputation, to state that it could not be built for that? Mr. Endicott. I do not think it could be built for that. Mr. Doolittle. Would you be willing to stake your professional reputation on the assertion that ic could not be built for that? Mr. Stewart. He says that the examination was not exhaustive enough to enable him to give an opiuion. NICARAGUA CANAL. 109 Mr. Endicott. I can not say at this moment what part of the increase in estimates was due to increase in quantities, in prices, or to chauges; an analysis of our report will show all that. Mr. Ellett. Did you make an estimate of the cost of the canal under Mr. Menocal's plans"? Mr. Endicott. I do not think that we stated it separately in the report, but our report shows it in figures. It would show the difference of the cost of the canal by his plans, and by our plans, at our prices, if analyzed. I think Mr. Noble can give that to you. The time was so short that we divided up the work. The Chairman. Who is F. W. Bennett? Mr. Endicott. There is a Mr. Bennett in the employ of the Nicaragua Canal Company. I think he was assistant engineer. The Chairman. Was your Conmiission referred to Mr. Bennett by Mr. Hitchcock for estimates of the cost of the construction of the canal? Mr. Endicott. I think that we were referred to Mr. Menocal, and Mr. Bennett was in charge of the papers in the New York office. The Chairman. Did he write your Commission a letter dated August 29, 1895, in which he gives a statement of the cost of the construction of the canal"? Mr. Endicott. We have a statement of cost, but whether it is from Mr. Bennett or Mr. Menocal I do not remember. I thijik it was from Mr. Menocal. The Chairman. Referring to this paper received from your Commis- sion, I find this statement: 11.5 miles of railroad, costing in the neigh- borhood of $372,000; rolling stock, $62,000; 727,000 cubic yards of dredging, $80,000; 937 lineal feet of pier, $200,000; jetties, $174,000; 06 miles of telegraph line, $19,000. What other items of construction did you find down there, if any ? And if there are any other, give us the cost, approximately, exclusive of these 1 have read. Mr. Endicott. I think that covers the actual construction. The Chairman. What about buildings? Mr. Endicott. There are buildings, office, etc. The Chairman. What are tliey worth, approximately? Mr. Endicott. It would be difficult for me to state what they are worth; probably $100,000. The Chairman. What other property did you find there, exclusive of the dredges that you have spoken of? Mr. Endicott. I think that was about all. There were two or three locomotives, but I do not think there was anything else. The Chairman. At what did you estimate the engineering work? Mr. Endicott. Koughly, half a million dollars. Mr. Patterson. Suppose this question was put to you: Assuming that the Government of the United States greatly desires the construc- tion of an interoccanic canal, and that it was willing to pay as much as $133,000,000 for a canal 30 feet deep, sufficient to float vessels drawing 28 feet of water, and supposing that the Government wanted a canal that would be large enough to answer all the purposes of commerce, would you advise the Congress of the United States — assuming all that — to pass a bill for the construction of this canal? Mr. Endicott. At once? Mr. Patterson. Yes. Mr. Endicott. Well, sir, I should not. Mr. Stewart. Why? Mr. Endicott. I think it would be wise to delay sufficiently to make more surveys, and examine the field more in detail, with a view to the construction of a canal. 110 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Could that not be done later, after the bill was passed ? Mr. Endicott. It might be modified, of coiirse. Mr. Patterson. Is j^our i)lau predicated upou the appreheusiou that the cost would exceed $133,000,000? Mr. Endicott. It might exceed that, and it might not. Mr. Stewart. Is that the only objection to the prosecution of the work at once? Mr. Endicott. It might be one objection. Mr. Patterson. From your knowledge of the conditions, with the information now in possession of the Government, and assuming that the Government was willing to pay $133,000,000, you think the cost of the canal might exceed that sum? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. Mr. Stewart. And yet you are an enthusiast for the canal? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir; I think we ought to have a canal. I think there is time to make surveys. We do not say that the surveys should be made by the Government. They can be made by the Government, or by private parties. We simply say that an examinatiou should be made. Mr. Patterson. How long would it take? Mr. Endicott. It should cover a x)eriod of eighteen months, so as to take in two dry seasons. Mr. Patterson. Have you an apprehension, if such surveys were made, that it might demonstrate the impracticability of constructing this canal? Mr. Endicott. Impracticability? No, sir; I do not fear that. Mr. Patterson. Do you fear that it might demonstrate the necessity of spending more money than $133,000,000? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. The matter of the lake levels affects the whole scheme. The height of the Ochoa Dam, and of the embankments on the San Erancisco and San Carlos ridge lines, and of the lockage, to keep the lake up to 110, and the means of limiting its tluctuatious all depend upon hydraulic data which we think is not sufficiently at hand. We do not think the project ought to be entered upon without exhausting that field and others. Mr. Stewart. Has any member of this Commission had any expe- rience in canal building? Mr. Endicott. Mr. Noble has had experience in the Sault Ste. Marie locks. Whether he has large canal exi)erience I am not advised. He has had a good deal of experience. Mr. Stewart. Is not the reputation of Mr. Menocal high? Mr. Endicott. Yes; but he has had no experience except on this canal — no experience in canal construction. Mr. Stewart. Mr. Menocal has had large experience in canal surveys ? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. Mr. Patterson. Have you ever examined the Manchester Canal or the Suez Canal? Mr. Endicott. No, sir. Mr. Patterson. You have had uo practical experience in the con- struction of canals? Mr. Endicott. No, sir; I have simply seen the canals in this country. Mr. Doolittle. Will you state how long Mr. Menocal was engaged in this work in Nicaragua? Mr. Endicott. He first became connected with it about lS72or 1873. Mr. Menocal was associated with Commander Lull, and he has been NICARAGUA CANAL. Ill engaged on these surveys since — I do not know how long in the aggregate. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do j'Ou regard Mr. Meuocal as competent? Mr. Endicott. I think he is an engineer of ability. Mr. DooLiTTLE. If you had been engaged in tliis work during the time he has been, would you feel entirely competent to make a correct statement as to the practicability* and the feasibility of this work, and the cost of it? Mr. Endicott. I think so. The Chairman. What other important work of similar character, aside from this canal, has Mr. Menocal ever been engaged upon? Mr. Endicott. I do not know of any other of similar character. I think he accompanied one of the expeditious which made surveys across the Isthmus of Panama. Mr. Bennett. In what year? Mr. Endicott. It was subsequent to the Lull surveys — about 1875. Mr. Stev^^art. Has he not examined the Manchester Canal and canals in India? Mr. Endicott. I do not think he examined those in India. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Has he not examined the Manchester Canal, the Keil Canal, and the Corinth Canal? Mr. Endicott. I think he has examined the Keil and the Manchester canals, but I do not think he has examined the Corinth Canal. Mr. Wanger. Have you considered the question of a ship railway across the Isthmus of Tehauntepec? Mr. Endicott. Not seriously. Mr. Wanger. Have you considered it sufficiently to express an opin- ion respecting the practicability of it ? Mr. Endicott. I would not like to express an unqualified opinion upon that. I am of the opinion that one can be built, and probably it would only be a question of cost. The Chairman. Can it be operated practically? Mr. Endicott. I think so. I think it is possible to take a ship up bodily and transport it safely, provided you take the necessary i^re- cautions. Mr. Wanger. Of the two propositions, a. ship railway and a canal, which do you think is the more practicable? Mr. Endicott. I think a canal is safer for the transportation of ves- sels. A vessel is never so easily borne as when water borne. Mr. Bennett. That is correct. Mr. Patterson. In making the estimate of $133,000,000, did you take into consideration all the contingencies that occurred to the minds of the Commission at the time? Mr. Endicott. Yes. Mr. Patterson. Did you make any allowance for unknown contin- gencies ? Mr. Endicott. We added 20 per cent for that, the same as the canal people did. Mr. Patterson. And you have an apprehension that the cost may exceed $133,000,000? Mr. Endicott. It may, if the lake can not be maintained at 110. Mr. Patterson. I want to get the state of your mind on that ques- tion. Which do you mean — probably or possibly? Mr. Endicott. I think it is probable. I think it may be impossible to maintain the lake at 110, and if so, there will be deeper excavations in tlie lake and in the San Juan Eiver. There is very considerable rock there, and that means a large iuQreased cost. 112 NICARAGUA CANAL- Mr. Patterson. What would the possible or probable increased cost amoiiut to? Have you any idea of that? Mr. Endicott. IsTo, sirj probably twelve or fifteen million dollars. Mr. Patterson. Then, do you think 1150,000,000 would cover all possible contingencies'? Mr. Endicott. I think it would cover all engineering contingen- cies. • Mr. Patterson. Would the engineering contingencies include every- thing'? Mr. Endicott. I am speaking from an engineer's standpoint. I do not consider the interest on the money during the process of construc- tion. Mr. Patterson. You think an outlay of 1150,000,000 would give the United States this canal, as you contemplate'? Mr. Endicott. 1 think so. Mr. Wanger. In your report you recommend an extension of the Grey town Harbor eastward, do you not"? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir; to the eastward. Mr. Wanger. What are the particular advantages of thaf? Mr. Endicott. Old surveys and examinations show that Greytown Harbor was originally a bight in the coast line. There was no channel or bar. Originally it was a broad, open roadstead, and the liistory of it shows that it gradually closed until it made Greytown Harbor a lagoon. A commission of distinguished gentlemen who examined into it under the National Academy of Sciences in 18G6 were the first, so far as I know, who found out the true causes of the destruction of the Greytown Har- bor. They found the discharge of the San Juan Eiver had little to do with it. The cause of it was drifting sands which filled up the harbor, and they were the persons who suggested jetties to arrest that sand and delay the progress of the destruction ol^ the harbor. They say that it would not restore it, and that the only hope rests upon the possi- bility of maintaining a navigable outlet, and that dredging must be resorted to or the harbor will be, at no distant day, destroyed. The shore line is being cut and filled in, and that means the destruc- tion of the bight. It is only a question of time. I believe that the con- struction of a jetty is the proper method of improving the harbor, but that it should be moved eastward where the end will reach deep water, with very much less length, and where the conditions are now much more nearly stable. A much shorter pier will here reach a point "where a line stretching from the end of jetty at rigiit angles to the direc- tion of the wind and the waves will approximate the direction of the east shore line. I think this bight is going to fill up, but that the jetty will arrest it materially. The progress of the filling in of the harbor will be slower, and the harbor will be more nearly permanent and main- tained at less cost. Mr. Bennett. And it would be of much more benefit to the canal'? Mr. Endicott. The whole expense will be less. It will be economy in the end. Mr. Patterson. In making an estimate of $150,000,000, do you include a good harbor at Greytown? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. Mr. Patterson. All that is in the estimate! Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. Mr. Stewart. 1 move that the committee take a recess until 2 o'clock. The motion was agreed to. NICARAGUA CANAL. li-> AFTERNOON SESSION. STATEMENT OF MR. M. T. ENDICOTT— Continued. The Chairman. Mr. Endicott, we have not a quorum here, but there are seven members of the committee present, probably as many as we will have this afternoon, if you desire to proceed. Mr. Endicott. Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not know that it is neces- sary for me to take up the time of the committee any further. The Chairman. I will interrui)t you to say we occupied all of your time this morning with queries. Now, if you have anything further you wish to state, we will be pleased to hear yon. Mr. Endicott. I have simply a few rough notes of some statements I wanted to make, called out by some testimony presented, but I am informed I can submit that in a written statement and have it entered in the record, and as that will be sufficient, I will not take up the time of the committee. That is entirely satisfactory to me. The Chairman. There are one or two matters, I think, I wanted to ask you about. During your remarks to-day you spoke of 20 dams in the river. Explain that matter, if you please. Mr. Endicott. I think I referred to those on the San Carlos ridge. They are sometimes spoken of as embankments and sometimes as dams. They dam up the water and form a portion of the eastern boundary of these great basins. There are 25 of those instead of 20. TLe Chairman. Will you not exi)lain the general features of this canal, of what the work consists'? There is a map before you. For instance, a part of it is simply excavation through alluvial soil. Explain that and point it out on the map, as I would like to get a correct idea of what there is before the constructors. Mr. Endicott. Well, this is the eastern terminus of the canal at Greytown and the harbor is shown here [illustrating]. This solid red line shows the canal and excavation up to this dam, 9.3 miles. Mr. Patterson. That is all through alluvial land? Mr. Endicott. Yes. The Chairman. Now, is the railroad coterminous with it? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir. This black line is the railroad, and from here on, that is what is called the embankment line, the line on which the dams are built to retain the water to the height necessary. From that point on there is a lock, and here is a lock, and here is a lock, and those three locks with the dams are designed to raise the water up to the height of 106 feet above the sea. The Chairman. What will be the lift of those three locks? Mr. Endicott. It will be a total of 100 feet; one will be 40 feet, another will be 35 feet, and another 31 feet. Then in here are the dams adjoining the locks to retain the water in these cuts and basins. At this point will be navigation through what is called the Deseado Basin, ibrmed by means of these dams. The Chairman. What will be the height of these dams? Mr. Endicott. The dams in here are comparatively small and The Chairman. Just about what? Mr. Endicott. Well, they may be 25 to 35 feet in height, and up here they would probably be 50 feet in height. The Chairman. Of what will they be composed? Mr. Endicott. Of clay. There will be two or three dams of con- crete. The present project of the company is to build two or three of concrete. N c 8 114 NICARAGUA CANAL. The Chairman. What is the total length of those dams Mr. Endicott. I do uot recollect at this niomeut. The total length of the banks in this basin would aggregate about G miles. The Chairman. Can you apin-oximate it in the other basinf Mr. Endicott. Probably 1 or 2 miles in this stretch. The CHAIR3IAN. What will they rest on — what kind of foundation'? Mr. Endicott. They will rest upon clay. Some of them occur in places where the surface of the soil now is quite soft — mud and marshy — and that will be excavated until they get to good bottom — hard, stiff clay, and they will start the embankments from there. The Chairman. Will the material excavated make these dams? Mr. Endicott. Some portion; yes, sir. But I think most of that excavation will be quite soft and will be perhaps discarded. The Chairman. Where will that material be obtained? Mr. Endicott. There is plenty of it from the cuts and in the hills adjoining here. Then they approach the east divide. This is a cut which is a trifle short of 3 miles in length. That dotted red line shows the navigation through the divide. That navigation is, of course, between rocky banks. The canal here will be 104) feet in width, and about 3 miles long. That carries the canal into what is called the San Francisco Basin, stretching from that point down to the Ochoa Dam, and it is in that stretch where there are a great many large dams — I think they number about 08, with a total length on the crest of about 6 miles. I think the heaviest dam there will be a trifle over 100 feet high — probably 70 feet high from the surface of the ground; but some of them will cross over muddj-, marshy places, which will have to be excavated 20 or 30 feet in order to get a good foundation; so, starting from there, the heights will vary up to about 100 feet and over. Mr. Fletcher. AVhat will the dam be constructed of? Mr. Endicott. Clay. Mr. Fletcher. And it will be 100 feet high, say? Mr. Endicott. Tes, sir. The Chairman. What will be the width of that on the crest? Mr. Endicott. That varies according to the height. The Chairman. The one you speak of as 100 feet? Mr. Endicott. What will be the width of that? 1 think it is about 20 feet, about that. The Chairman. What will be the width at the base? Mr. Endicott. About COO feet wide at the base. The Chairman. Will any portion of thatbe constructed under water? Mr. Endicott. They will have to exclude the water. They will have to dam the water back by means of cribs, sheet piling, etc., and then pump out the water. The Chairman. Is that contemidated in their plan? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir; I think so. I so understand it that their estimates provide for that work. The Chairman. Where are the stone dams to be constructed? Mr. Stewart. Or breakwaters? Mr. Endicott. A part of the breakwater will be built of stone, but there is no masonry dam in this entire scheme. Some that I spoke of would be built of concrete, and that is sometimes spoken of as masonry. Mr. Stewart. All breakwaters are contemplated to be built of stone thrown in? Mr. Endicott. Yes, sir ; loose stone thrown in. There \^ill be a great deal of rough stone in the Ochoa Dam, also, according to the plans, Mr. Patterson. What do you think of that plan? NICARAGUA CAIJAL. 115 Mr. Endicott. The Oclioa Dam? Mr. Patterson. Yes. Mr. Endicott. I think it can be built succe ssfiilly as a rock-fill dam after a proj^er method and design. The Chairman. Will you describe it? Mr. Endicott. Provided it is not used as a weir, I do not think any water should be allowed to flow over the top of it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. That is not contemplated now? Mr. Endicott. I think so. Mr. DooLiTTLE, Is it not true, according to the modified plans, the water escape is throuut these plans contemplate a larger plan tlian the Suez when it was completed 1 Colonel Ludlow. Yes, quite true; but the Suez people found it neces- sary to increase it. Mr. Stewart. Do you regard Mr. Menocal as a competent engineer? Colonel Ludlow. 1 do not think the connnittee really would want me to answer that question, as it is (piite personal. Mr. Stewart. I withdraw the (juestion. Colonel Ludlow. I would rather you would not ask that; but I would have no objection to answering it, Mr. Stewart. If your board had s])ent the time spent by Menocal at Nicaragua, would not you then feel competent to express an oi)inion as to the feasibility and i)racticability and possibility of the route "^ Colonel Ludlow. If we had spent seven or eight years, surely. But mere duration in the country lias not anything to do with it; otherwise you could get better information from a native than anybody else. Mr. Stewart. Lut I am supposing you were actually engaged iu the prosecution of this enterprise. Colonel Ludlow. Oh, surely ; and it ought not to take as long as that to get it. We do not hesitate to say that in our report. We had sym- pathy and consideration for Mr. Menocal and everyone else connected with the matter. We had no antagonism to anybody, and we have had no friction with the company. Our relations have been entirely pleasant. Mr. Stewart. The reason I asked the question was that Mr. Noble and Mr. Endicott expressed a very favorable consideration for Mr. Menocal's professional ability. Colonel Ludlow. I like him very much, but as to his professional ability I have no other means of judging except by his work, and it is unfair to have to condemn a man as an engineer because he has not been able to do all the engineering he would like to do. 1 do object, how- ever, to the statement he made that the engineering has been suffi- ciently done. I totally disagree from that, and we found it inexj)licable that iu all the time the company has spent on that project — it might be, perha])S, because it would cost a little more — that they have not the information which the board required, and which I apprehend every engineer will require and will regard as absolutely indispensable. Mr. Bennett. You said when you had completed your course over the route you were the only engineers who had ever covered the entire line of the canal"? Colonel Ludlow. Y'^es, sir ; I would like to postpone the answer to that, because I would like, Avith the permission of the committee, to say something on that later. It is, however, (juite true, as we believe. There are some aspects of this matter which are very peculiar. I have not had much time to go over this more recent literature, but I am reasonably familiar with the former publications on the canal, and I do not think I have ever been more surprised in my life than in reading this i)amphlet containing the Miller-Menocal testimony, of which I have a copy and which I s]>ent last evening in examining and making notes. I have had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Miller, who is a very amiable NICARAGUA CANAL, 149 and accoinplislied gentleman. I have always liked him and have been indebted to him for courtesies, and I do not believe he intends to impute anything really disagreeable to the members of the board or say any- thing disagreeable about them, I do not believe he intends to do that any more than I would attempt to do it about him. He says things here which have no verity, but it is quite easy to see he has derived his judgment from the opinion and statements of others, and not from his own knowledge. I do not sup- pose he would exi>ect a very strict examination of the engineering which he has stated there and makes points about. Of course, you understand Mr, Miller is not an engineer, though doubtless learned in other direc- tions. But there are a good many things which need to be covered in this inquiry, and mere personal matters I would like to defer, because there is an aspect of that which is somewhat serious, and, with the permission of the committee, I would rather go over the technical matters first, I have taken occasion to make some notes, and I have certain data which at the outset I will endeavor to lay before you. The board found, on examining the canal literature, very numeroTis and more or less definite statements with regard to the investigation of this project by American and foreign engineers — English engineers — sometimes individual engi- neers and sometimes a board of engijieers. We found many references to that matter, and naturally we were desirous of knowing what English and other engineers had investigated the subject. We had before us the publications of the company and reports of the board — a consultation board in New York, which repre- sents an American board, called from the name of the chairman the Bogart board. We had that before us. Then it was determined to find out who these English people were. The board could not get definite information on the subject either by inquiry or correspondence. The board wrote finally to Mr. Menocal and asked him who they were, and he stated in effect he was not at liberty to state what the reports were, as they had been confidential, and while he had been informed they were of a favorable character he was not prepared to furnish them. Later on the thing became more definite. Presently there was a publication by Captain Merry, associated with the canal, and who is very much interested and enthusiastic about it, to the effect that there was an estimate made by a board of English engineers corroborating Mr, Menocal's estimate to within $000,000, And Mr, Miller, unless there is a misprint in this, has stated to the committee that the report of an English engineer corroborated Mr. Menocal within a million dollars. Well, we found the name of the engineer to be Mr. Donaldson, a gentleman formerly connected with the Manchester Ship Canal and now connected with the London and East India Docks — a man of repute and consideration. I was very much pleased at having an opportunity of meeting Mr. Donaldson in London. I talked to him about this since his name was mentioned, and he was suriirised at the aspect of the case and the way his name had been used. I will, with the permission of the committee, read brietly what the record is on the subject. We wrote first an official letter to Mr. Menocal, which is as follows : Nicaragua Canai. Company, Army Building, New Yoi'k, October 1, 1895. Dear Sir: The board is recently in receipt of copies of a pamphlet on tlie Nica- rajjiia Canal by William L. Merry, pnrporting to be published by anthority of the Chamber of Commerce of San Francisco and other responsible bodies. The description of the canal is evidently obtained from the company's records, and on page 2G the following statement appears: "The cost of the canal has been very carefully estimated by Engineer Menocal 150 NICARAGUA CANAL. and by two boards of consulting engineers, one in the United States and one in Kiijibuid. Menocal makes a cost of $65,081,176, exclusive of bankers' connnissions, disi.ounfs on securities, and interest during construction. The English board exceeds this hy $600,000, a remarkable concurrence." Will you be kind enough to give the board such information as you may have rela- tive to the composition or personnel of the English board of engineers, to whose report reference was made, the nature of its investigation of the canal project, when it was made, and what were the unit prices upon which the board's estimate of $600,000, more or less, of excess of the company's estimate was based? Very truly, yours, William Lublow, Chairman. Mr. A. G. Menocal, Clnef Engineer, etc., Broolclyn Navy-Yard. Colonel Ludlow. ISTow, if you please, I will read Mr. Menocal's reply, and then I will read one more letter, and that will close that part of it: United States Navy- Yard, New Yorl-, October 2, 1895. Deai{ Sir: Referring to your letter of the Ist instant, regarding the statement contained in a pamphlet on the Nicaragua Canal published by William L. Merry, in which he states that the estimated costof tiie canal as computed by a board of Eng- lish engineers exceeds the estimates made by me by $600,000, 1 can only say, in reply to your inquiries, that in my opinion Mr. Merry refers to the report made by Mr. H. F. Donaldson, chief engineer of the London and East India Dock Company, to the syndi- cate that employed him to visit Nicaragua and examine the route of the canal, the proposed plans, estimates, etc., and to report his conclusions thereon. Mr. Donaldson was at the time engineer in charge of a section of the Manchester Ship Canal. He visited Nicaragua with another engineer of the Manchester Canal Company, Mr. Gooch, associated with him in the investigation in 1891, and inspected the route of the canal, the plans, the work then in progress, etc., spending about one month in the country. They then went to Costa Rica and examined the location of a railroad in that country, in the interest of the same syndicate, after which they came to the United States, visited the Sault Ste. Marie Canal, and spent considerable time in the Nicaragua Canal Company's ottice in New York, examining the plans, records, etc., of the company. I am at liberty to say, regarding his report, beyond his unreserved statement to me and, I think, to others in London, to the elfect that he had fully indorsed the project as i)roposed in the company's plans, and that his estimate of cost was very close to the one made by me. Whether the ditference was $600,000 or £600,000, 1 am not prepared to state. His report is private ])ropert3' of the syndicate that employed him, and, as far as I know, has not been published. Very truly, yours, A. G. Menocal. Col. William Ludlow, U. S. Engineers, Chairman Nicaragua Canal Company. Colonel Ludlow. I took occasion, in meeting Mr. Donaldson in Lon- don, to inform liim that he had been rather prominently and authorita- tively quoted as indorsinj:? this project, and asked him if he would let me know what his views were on the subject, as it was a matter of great interest, and I found him in the first place surprised at the use that had been made of his name, and, in the second place, entirely dissatisfied to occupy the position in whidi these various communications put him, and he asked me if I could suggest to him any way by which he could rectify tl)e matter so far as he was concerned. I stated to him that he jiiight write me a letter on the subject if he chose, and I would use it, officially or otherwise, in any way he desired, and he thougiit that was a good plan. I will now read you his letter: 109 Leadenhall Street, London, E. C, April 14, 1896. Dear Colonel Ludlow: Referring to our conversation the other evening, I think it only just to myself to draw your attention oiticially to a point which seems to require some remarks from me. I understand that it has been officially intimated to you that some of the referc^nccs in the Maritime Canal Company's various publi- cations to the reports, etc., of English engineers refer to the visit I paid to Nica- ragua and the confidential report which 1 made to my principals on my return. Were NICARAGUA CANAL. 161 it not that estimates are specially dwelt upon in the publications I have referred to, and that I understand that you have received an official intimation to the above eftect, I should not deem it worth while to write to you on the subject, but seeing that I am represented as having made estimates with a view to total cost I would ask you to understand and to represent my views of the case (which are as follows) to your Government. As a portion of my confidential report it was part of my duty to collect informa- tion as to the probable units of cost of work in Nicaragua, and to carry this into eflect I adopted, avowedly without any checkiug, the figures shown, as the quanti- ties of work to be done, in the canal report of 1890. For the purpose of my report it was not necessary to check these quantities or discuss any point which I consid- ered, and still consider, necessary for the proper completion of the canal. These matters which I have mentioned may in some cases tend to decrease cost, but, with- out doubt, the net resiilt would be a large increase upon the total for a lump-sum estimate. My rejiort being confidential, I am unable to give you the total figure I arrived at, but even if I gave it you I do not think it would be of any service, see- ing that in many cases I drew special attention to the fact that the information was insufiicient, and that, therefore, I could do nothing but take the units of cost — nota- bly for the lock gates — which were shown in the report of 1890 I have referred to, and, moreover, the total which I arrived at would be by no means reliable in arriving at the total cost of the canal, as I only included net costs and allowed practically nothing for contingencies. Under these circumstances it appears to me very mis- leading to suggest that any estimating which I did can safely be taken as a basis of my opinion as to what the total cost of the canal will amount to, both on account of the indefiniteness already referred to with regard to the locks, and also to many other points which appear to me to require revision. Yours, faithfully, H. F. Donaldson. Col. Wm. Ludlow, Embassy of the United States, London. Colonel Ludlow. You will observe what a different aspect the mat- ter immediately presents by that letter submitted to the committee as a part of the record at the request of Mr. Donaldson. He went down there to make unit prices. He had no means of checking quantities, measuring, or leveling. The people who sent him there wanted to know what the work would cost per cubic yard, or mile, or foot. He looked over the project, that of 1890, and there were a great many things which he regarded as of serious moment, but in making up his unit prices he took no account of these, and in making his estimates put no allowance for contingencies in it. I know otherwise what his total is, but I am not at liberty to state it. It would not be satisfactory to those who believe that it is an indorsement of the company's iDroject within a $1,000,000, or $600,000, or £600,000. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I suppose it would show what was in his mind at the time? Mr. Wanger. As to the unit prices. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And all the other matters embraced in it. Colonel Ludlow. I only present the matter in pursuance to Mr Donaldson's request, and I have discharged my duty in doing it. Mr. Patterson. His report is not a part of the record? Colonel Ludlow. His report is not a part of anybody's record, because it was made to his employers, and as far as I am aware it is confined there. Mr. DooLiTTEE. Of course, it may be easily made a part of the record before the committee? Mr. Patterson. I understand it is a confidential report. Colonel Ludlow. If you do, you will have to get it, as I could not. Mr. Doolittle. If the company saw fit to submit it we could get it. Mr. Patterson. As I understand it, he made no report to the canal company, but made the report to his emi^loyers in England. Colonel Ludlow. To Mr. Walker, the great EugUsh contractor on the 152 NICARAGUA CANAL. Manchester Canal, who I learned had a large amount of canal plant for sale. Mr. Joy. Did you get his estimate? Colonel Ludlow. I have it confidentially. Mr. Joy. Directly from Mr. Donaldson himself? Colonel Ludlow. No; I can not say that. I say I got it indirectly. He did not consider himself at liberty to communicate it, and that is the reason he stated what he did, and for the additional reason that it would be of no value, which is a fact, because it is a mere taking of the unit prices which represented the exercise of his judgment in the mat- ter, and a taking of the company's quantities which he did not seek to check and had no means of checking, so he worked up the company's quantities and his own unit prices and arrived at a column of figures. Now, you can add those up. There are serious additions which Mr. Donaldson regarded as necessary to the project in order to make it satisfactory as an engineering project, and there is no item for contin- gencies in it, as he only put in a few thousand dollars in order to make up a round sum. Mr. Joy. Then you are familiar substantially with the details of the report made to his principal? Colonel Ludlow. Not in the least. I have not seen a word of it, and do not know of it except what Mr. Donaldson chose to communicate to me. Mr. Joy. I understand you had some information outside of the letter you have read? Colonel Ludlow. I have had some information. Mr. Joy. Going beyond the substance of the letter? Colonel Ludlow. I have the communication of Captain Merry. Mr. Joy. I mean in reference to Mr. Donaldson's report? Colonel Ludlow. Only what I got from a friend of his who was not aware at the moment that Mr. Donaldson had said anything on the sub- ject, and he had not at that time in fact. The only thing I rest on in the matter is of course Mr. Donaldson's statement which he desired to me to submit to the committee here, or to my Government, as he called it. Mr. Joy. You have the statement because you have gone considera- bly beyond the contents of the letter itself, and that is the reason I asked if you had seen the full report? Colonel Ludlow. No, sir; personally I have no further informa- tion. Mr. Stewart. Mr. Donaldson is an enthusiast in regard to the Nica- ragua Canal? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, no; he is not an enthusiast about anything. Mr. Stewart. But he is strongly in favor of it? Colonel Ludlow. He did not say so. All I talked about with Mr. Donaldson was the question of his name being used as indorsing the project and estimate, and I did not ask him what he thought about the enterprise. Mr. Joy. You devoted a considerable portion of your time while abroad in looking into other canals and estimating in view of this report? Colonel Ludlow. I got a large amount of data, and I was traveling and working all the time almost, and accumulated a large amount of material; but I have not been able to sit down long enough to look it over sufficiently Mr. Joy. Was that visit for the purj)ose of making this investigation into other canals? NICARAGUA CANAL. 153 Colonel Lfblow. I had iiistrnctioiis from tlie War Department. Mr. Joy. And it was not for pleasnre? Colonel Ludlow. It was a pleasure in one sense, but it was very hard work in another. I had orders from the Department to na with any pre- conceived opinion of the project, either in reogart board had been fairly treated. We were struck with certain things which seemed to indicate that there had been some misunderstanding, and to which I will call attention at another point. The Bogart board states that it has gone over in NICARAGUA CANAL. 155 the usual way the maps, usinj? the company's data and, larg^ely, the company's quantities, althouj^h they make a considerable difference in the estimate of the work. At the bottom of page 2 the board states, ''These locks are shown by the borings submitted to be all founded on rode." The next publication that api^ears on the subject is the Eeport on Financial Location, which followed G months later; at least it appears under date of January 31, 1890. If you will look in that report, you will find that it is nowhere stated that any of the locks are foundeil on rock, as in fact they are not. If I am not very much in error, the best material to wliich the foundation of locks is attributed in Mr. Menocal's report of 1890 is "solid ground." Evidently the information given to the Bogart board was seriously incorrect in that particular, if you please. That board was led to believe by the borings submitted to them for their examination and for tlie exercise of their judgment that these huge locks, such as the world never saw, and perhaps never will see, tremendous constructions, were to be founded in the "solid rock;'' and the chief engineer's report, which followed soon after, makes no reference to that "rock," but does to "solid ground." We thought the Bogart board should not be held responsible for their statement, but they increase the company's figures one-third, and yet the company's report makes no use of those figures. Mr. Menocal's estimate in 1890 is the same as it was before, without paying any atten- tion to the recommendations of this board of engineers, and it did not seem to me that it was altogether a fair way to treat the board, and our board did not undertake to discuss it, for that reason, among others. There maybe some misapprehension about this, because the totals of this Bogart board have been referred to as being used by the company, and it is true in a sense, perhaps, but not in a correct sense. The Bogart board made a construction account, not an interest account, and took no account of financial expenses. It is an engineer's or a contrac- tor's estimate, with allowances for contingencies. There are no extra- neous charges in it. The company has used the Bogart board total, but made it cover financial and incidental expenses also. Mr. Wanger. I would suggest that instead of using the word "this," you designate it more clearly, so that the stenographer's notes may show it. Colonel Ludlow. That is quite correct. The company's estimate is ot the same nature, but they are engineers' and constructors' accounts. It is true the company used the figures which were before included within the additional expenses, and have gradually arrived at a probable total to include financial arrangements of perhaps one hundred millions. But it put the Bogart board at a disadvantage. I trust your committee will not have any unnecessary misapprehension on that point. I would like to go through this matter as fully as I may, because I wish to have you understand it before we get through. I have been going over the testimony here with much haste and som^amusement, and a good deal of surprise. In the testimony which has been given by Mr. Menocal and Mr. Miller — I will not criticise Mr. Miller, because I do not think he meant to be disagreeable in reference to the board, but he does make some semifacetious reference to it. I presume he intended it as such, but there is no intention to hold Mr. Miller responsible for any engineer- ing data, because he is not personally acquainted with it, and can not be; but he used the information very properly which he got from the engineer and staff" of the company. It struck me as singular in looking- at this that the difficulty 15(j NICARAGUA CANAL. eiiconiitored at the outset in the investigation of this project was a certain tinidity or ehisiveness about it. We could not get statements jnade at diiferent times and in different i)uhh(!ations that would cohere. We found that difficulty with reference to the Ochoa Dam. In the new estimate of 1805 we find that the amount set down in cubic yards has been increased 50 per cent over that in 1890. That was very gratify- ing to us, because it showed the change in a wholesome direction, and we would liked to see that continued, in a way; but we could not find anywhere tliat anything was fixed or settled; there were no detailed drawings of construction anywhere along the line. There were no definite drawings of the great locks which the company proposed to bnild, or statement of the materials of which they were to be composed. At one place it said they were to be built of concrete and stone masonry, and in another place of masonry and iron; but when we came to examine them we found that they were to be composed exclusively of six-dollar concrete, and there was nothing said about cut stone at $20 per cubic foot; yet there was a disposition to be accommodating. Then we found that a change at the last moment had been made in the site of ]iart of the San Francisco embankment line. They believed at last that they had found a better place for that. They also moved the third lock, coming from the Caribbean Sea westward, to a new site; but no borings had been made to determine the material. There were other things of that sort. Everything was still " under consid- eration." I find in this testimony half a dozen distinct changes in their propo- sitions. There is a series of changes about tlie project, and I would like to refer to them because they are of the utmost importance and have a positive bearing upon this inquiry. In the first place, we have always sui)posed from the beginning, as you will see in our report, that the summit level of the lake was to be held at a fixed minimum of 110 feet above sea level. The depths were to be measured below that level in the lake and river, and we supposed that 110 feet above the sea was the minimum iioint to which the lake was to be permitted to fall. Now, we find the strange assertion that this summit level is not fixed. We supposed that 110 was the minimum, and now we find that the lake may fall below that. That is stated since our report was made in which we indicated the difficulty of regulating the summit level; but the chief engineer now says that after all it will be quite possible to permit the summit level to fall 1^ to 2 or more feet, because in the San Juan Eiver, where the channel is to be 28 feet deep, it can go back 1^ or 2 feet and still have 28J feet. The re])ort says this is sufficient for a commercial canal. Furthermore, it is said that our naval war ships are not intended to go through there; that it was not the purpose to build this canal for the use of the United States men-of-war or battle ships going from the Atlantic to the Pacific. We had been under a diflerent impression. We had been under the imj^ession that our vessels were to go through there; but this is not to be. Then what becomes of the patriotic and professional interest sliown in this matter by tlie numerous naval officers Avho have concerned themselves in this? We ought to have 30 feet of water all throngh, and the locks ought to be 80 feet wide instead of 70 feet wide. Several of our battle ships can not go through with 70 feet. JNFr. Corliss. In your estimates you have provided for the mainte- nance of the summit level at 110. Colonel Ludlow. Surely; how could a ship cross the Pacific, say from Shanghai, without knowing how much water she would find to NICARAGUA CANAL. 157 cross the Istliinus. Two to 4 feet would make a great difference. On the Great Lakes, li to 4 iuclies are serious. It is sometimes seriously detrimental to lake navii^atiou if the depth falls oft' from li to -1 inches. As to the variation of summit level, I apprehend no engineer, naval ofhcer, or shipmaster would regard it as admissible in a work of tliis kind. I want to quote something in reference to this as stated in the testimony of the chief engineer of the company. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Where do you find that statement? Colonel Ludlow. It is on page 09. Mr. L>ooLiTTLE. Is that the verbal statement, or the manuscript statement"? Colonel Ludlow. That is in the paper. It says : The maxiniiiiu fluctuation of the lake level, ;is ucar as cau be determiuod from the iuformatiou ohtaiuable, is about 10 feet. I may say that the company formerly estimated it at about 5 feet. The board were inclined to believe from what it ascertained that the range was lli to 14 feet. We were satished that it was much more than 5 feet. This was hrst ascertained in Mr. Child's surveys. He was a very competent man, and was the first one to note the liuctuation of the lake, and he found it 5 feet, and the company took his estimate of it, which is an old one; but Ave found it was 12 to 14 feet, from the water marks on the banks. It is now 10, according to the statement of the company. One level he disregards, and he may be quite right about it. Then he says : The flow of the river will be more uuiform by reason of enlarged sectional area in the created storage reservoirs and lessened fluctuations of lake level ; and with an intelligent management of the sluices and weirs, at both the western and eastern ends of the summit level, there is no reason why the lake should not be maintained within 1^ feet of the assumed 110-foot level, as proposed in the company's plans. In the second paragraph, page 70, he says : The board attaches considerable importance to retaining the lake level at or above 110, and believes that any fall from tliat level will be injurious to uavigatiou in the river and canal. There is no foundation for that statement. The canal is projected to be, ultimately, 30 feet deep throughout from ocean to ocean, but in order to reduce first cost of construction tlie river section and the sea-level sections of.the canal have been estimated with a dei)th of 28 feet, the additional 2 feet to be excavated after the canal is oi)en to traffic. It is claimed that the lake level cau be maintained within a range of 3 feet, or within 14 feet of 110, and the board does not seem to disjjute it. Should the lake fall 18 inches below the 110-fbot level, the excavated channel in the river will yet have a depth of 26] feet, or 6 inches more than the Manchester and Suez canals — ■ That is an error as to the Suez Canal — and the sections of canal in excavation a depth of 28^ feet, or deeper than any ship canal in the workl. That is to say, the lake may fall 2 feet below the assumed sum- mit level, 110, and all the sections of the river and caual in excavation will yet reiuaia dee})er than any otlier canal now in successful operation, and there is no apparent reason why tliis canal should be nuide deeper than experience has conclusively shown to be sufticient elsewhere. The lake, then, according to this, may vary even 2 feet. The summit level will be permitted to vary 1^ or even 2 feet below the assumed sunmiit level. Mr. DooLiTTLB. Do you gather from this statement of Mr. Menocal's that it is intended to permit such a variation, or does he simply mean that it may vary that much and yet remain deeper than any other canal — still have a sufficient depth I Colonel Ludlow. I understand that the supi)osition heretofore has been that means would be taken to maintain that summit level at 110 feet or more, not permitting it to fall below 110 feet. I say this idea of 158 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Menocal's was an entire surprise to me, as it was to all of ns. I bad a brief conversation with Mr. Noble in New York, and Mr. Eudicott conferred with us in Washington, and we all agreed that was the lirst time we heard of that proposition, and didn't believe such a proposition was ever heard of before. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Still, no one would undertake to say what was in the minds of those gentlemen. Colonel Ludlow. That is true. I am not desiring to extend my criti- cisms fur her than what the engineering facts woukl warrant. I only say no canal was ever constructed on that basis. You observe, then, that the navigation ceases to be a 28-foot navigation as the level of the lake falls. It is assumed that the variation of the lake can be regu- lated within 3 feet. The board has serious doubts whether that is possible. Although we had rather limited material to work on in con- nection with this matter, you will find it argued in our report. We believe that the regulation of the level of the lake within 3 feet is a matter of extreme doubt. It is very doubtful whether it can be regu- lated within that figure. We do not know its maximum range. The board measured the water marks, but there is still an uncertainty about it. We believe it varied as much as 14 feet. Mr. Endicott. A little over that. Colonel Ludlow. Mr. Menocal in his statement here admits, for the first time, that the fluctuation of the lake is about 10 feec. Should it be 10 feet, what then ? Suppose you can not regulate it within 3 feet. Suppose you can not regulate it within less than 5-feet range. That variation has to take place, above and below. You might stand the increase, but can you stand the 2 or 3 feet of loss! I think not. Mr. DooLiTTLE. At all events, you suppose the excess can be taken care of? Colonel Ludlow. No; there would be another serious difticulty. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But not beyond engineering skill to control? Colonel Ludlow. I believe not. Mr. DOOLITTLE. The river takes care of it now? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, with a lot of surprises in it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. There are always surprises about high water. Colonel Ludlow. It depends upon how higli you get it. As we measured the range of the river there, the company assuming a range of 5 feet, we determined beyond question that the river had risen 21 feet, because the residents pointed out to us where it had covered the track on a siding on the bank of the river which measured 21 feet above low river. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That river does not rise as much as the Ohio Eiver? Colonel Ludlow. No. Mr. Sherman. Who pointed out this to you ? Colonel Ludlow. We inquired about all such matters at every point where we had an opportanity to make an investigation, and we leveled ourselves in this case from the bench marks, you might call them. We would get the station master to indicate how high ^ater had been and make our measurements accordingly. The station master would say, "The water came up on this sill," and then we could estimate how high it was. We did this; pursued this course at every point where we could do so. Mr. Joy. At what part of the river did you find that excessive high water ? Colonel Ludlow. At Machuca, about IS miles above Ochoa Dam, at the Machuca Bapids, upstream toward Lake Nicaragua. We found NICARAGUA CANAL. 159 elsewhere marks tliat would range 14, 15, 16, and 18. This was the highest we saw. I think it was 21 and something. It was a great surprise to us. We were not prepared to find that, because the river had always been referred to by the company as equable, and one i^ar- ticular fact that was urged was that it was not subject to floods. It is declared over and over again in the canal reports that the river is not subject to floods. That depends, tlien, on what you call a flood. Mr. Joy. Did that high water result from excessive rainfalls or from the lake itself? Colonel Ludlow. You know the river is made by the flow out of the lake. Mr. Joy. But the rainfall would have something to do with it? Colonel Ludlow. Certainly; there might be a heavy rainfall over the lake which would fill the Upper San Juan very full, and there might at the same time be a flood in the San Carlos, which is a very desperate stream indeed at times, as is admitted by everybody who has looked at it. It is subject to heavy rainfall and floods. It pours off of those mountains 40 or 50 miles away, and tears down with violent oscillations. That is the character of the San Carlos Eiver. Beyond question, when you have high water in those two rivers and they come tumbling in you get a rise. In the Macbuca Eapids tbe water may have risen very high. It was dammed uj) there, as it were. It may not have been as high elsewhere. I do not believe it was. We do not know. We have not any figures. I do not want to detain you on this point any longer. Another new point is this: This project is always referred to as having been fully worked out — that is, that the information is complete; that all the reports are complete. We find now for the first time that it is admitted that it is not complete; that the reports are not complete, were not regarded as complete. The project is not "final," but " original," or "approximate," or "preliminary." Phrases of that kind are used, which shade off the meaning very considerably. If the company had frankly said to us, "This is a preliminary project; it still remains to be completed, and we recognize the fact that there is much information to be had," it would have abbreviated our labors a great deal, because we proceeded on the idea that the information was complete. The next point I was going to toucli on I think must be a misprint. Mr. Meuocal speaks of $3,000,000 as the estimated cost of the Ochoa Dam. Mr. Patterson. "Inside of $3,000,000" was his answer. Colonel Ludlow. That is the text; but I was sure that must have been a misprint, because, if you will observe, the company's estimate of 1890 made the cost of that dam — which was the project we had to con- sider — $726,000. We had to consider the building of a dam there for that sum. We did not believe a dam could be built there for $726,000, whether the water ran over it or under it. We had some very serious discussion on that matter. While we were considering it last summer, the company made a revision of its estimates, in order to include cer- tain matters, which had to be carried forward into the total cost, and the estimate for the rock sections of the Ochoa Dam was increased 50 per cent, and the cost, as estimated in 1895, was $977,000. Now, I say I could not account for the fact of an estimate, based on developments since last summer, of a sum of $3,000,^100. That seemed to be an abnormal change. While the direction of the change was wholesome, I could not account for such a sudden and extensive change. Mr. Sherman. In your report, did you not suggest material changes in the construction of this dam? 160 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes; very grave changes. Mr. Sherman. Possibly Mr. Meuocal, in changing his estimate of the cost of construction, liad in view the dam wliicli you proposed? Colonel Ludlow. He comes within $1,()U0,0UU of our estimate now. We did not ])retend to nnike a careful estimate, although we did the best we could under the circunjstances. We put down $4,000,000 as the sum within which the dam and its appurtenances could probably be constructed. I did not understand Mr. Menocal's estimate of some- thing less than $3,000,000. I thought it proper to call the attention of the committee to the fact. Mr. Wanger. It is possible that Mr. Meuocal was referring to the cost of one section in giving that answer. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The question was: "At what do you estimate the cost of the Ochoa Dam?" and Mr. Meuocal says, "Inside of $3,000,000." Colonel Ludlow. I do not know what those iigures should be. 1 think it is a very wholesome approximation to what may be the cost of that dam. We estimate it roughly at $4,00(>,000. Mr. Stewart. You started out by stating that you would refer to some fiicetious remarks on the part of Mr. Miller. Now you have lost sight of that matter. Colonel Ludlow. I think not, because I propose to come to it. I am much obhged for your suggestion. I think what he said was intended to be facetious. On the next page, page 60 of the testimony, Mr. Menocal states it is proposed to give the dam a base of about 1,000 feet. That again would indicate that he was approaching to the increased cube which the board has recommended, because the base of the dam as previously stated was to be 500 feet. He has increased that to 1,000 feet. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Would that be the length of the dam"? Colonel Ludlow. Up and down the stream. No, the length of the dam across the stream is a fixed quantity. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Still it would be built in the soil on each side. Colonel Ludlow. Yes, it must be, and go deeply into it, with very careful protection to prevent the river from fiankiug it. That is the point of weakness in a dam. That would be the weak point in a masonry dam as well, if in other respects it was adequate. There is another point I would like to refer to. That is a proposition which struck all the members of the board as entirely novel. It was never heard of before; and that was that the chief engineer, in lieu of that La Flor Dam in the Pacific division, which the board regard as impracticable, and for which they would substitute a common, ordinary low -level canal in excavation, it now appears that another i^roposition is assumed — don't know when — and that is that the question of build- ing a low-level dam and basin has been worked out. And atone point in the text our board is reproached for having hastily disregarded that l)roposition altogether, not considered it, and rejected the high-level dam, and adopting the low-level canal, without regarding this question of a low-level dam at La Flor and a low-level basin. I assure you that it is a question that is absolutely novel. It has not heretofore been suggested, and it has not been thought of before so far as we know or can get any indication from the company's reports. That was another change which we, of course, have not considered at all. I would not regard it if they had, because there is no use running any chances on that western division. It is a good, honest division, and you can build the canal there beyond qnestion, and to run into any costly or risky experiments with a thing of that magnitude would not NICARAGUA CANAL. 161 be justifiable, unless there was some adequate compensation for tlie risk, and in tliat particular case the adequate compensation does not exist. If you abandon a high level dam you simply lose 4 or 5 miles of basin and substitute for it 4 or 5 miles of an ordinary canal, and the disadvantage of doing so is not suflicient to warrant you in taking any great risk in trying to do the other thing. That was the view the board took of it. There are a lot of references all the way through this testimony of Mr. Menocal to the effect that the ablest engineers of the United States and England have said his plans were practical, and that the cost can not exceed so and so. I tliink I have covered that sufficiently without add- ing anything further. We have looked at the report of the "American board" and at the letter from Mr. Donaldson, who, so far as we can ascertain, represents the "English board." At any rate, he does so iu Mr. Menocal's view. There is one other subject 1 would like to speak of. It is the question of the San Juan Kiver — the survey and estimates of the San Juan Kiver. The company's reports allege with regard to that — make no excei>tion of it, at least — that it has been thoroughly investigated. We found an extraordinary discrepancy between our figures, as we were able to nuike them, and the company's figures on that point, and there are some remarkable statements with regard to this ujatter. It was Mr. Miller, 1 think, and also Mr. Menocal who intimated that we intended to disparage the report nmde by the Lull survey of 1872. I can assure you that nothing was further from theY>urposeof the board. TheLull survey exi^edition was a preliminary expedition. Their primary purpose was to confirm the survey made by Colonel Childs twenty years before, and they didnot undertaketo make a careful instrumental survey of the San Juan Ifiver. They measured around the falls with transit and level, and for the rest made a boat and gradienter survey of the river, took soundings in it, and determined its general depths, channels, etc., and among other things got indications with a lead of the nature of the bottom. The leadsman called out "gravel," "sand," "rock," and soon, as well as he could determine. Now, there has been no further investi- gation made of that river. The exi^ense of deepening it is one of the most serious items in the entire project, and the variations in cost for the diiferent sections of the river are great. We asked the basis of the company's estimate. They furnished us a profile of the river — a longitudinal section, if you like — which they said was the basis for estimating. It puri)orted to be, as they believed it to be, a longitudinal section or profile, derived from the Lull survey. What was peculiar about it at once was the fact that the profile as drawn did not confine itself to the dej^th of water and to the surface indications, but penetratad deeply into the bottom down to the bed of the future canal, aiul on this profile were indicated with ap])arently remarkable exactness all the various materials of which that river bed was composed. Now, as a matter of fact, there is not a particle of authority for that i)rofile. The Lull survey did not go farther than the bottom of the river. They did not attempt to penetrate below and ascertain the character of the bottom, and nobody has been there and made such investigation since. Mr, DooLiTTLE. Was that profile presented to you by the company? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, it is a part of their records; and when you choose to examine the plans and maps accompanying our report you will find that submitted. They made no concealment of it, nor was there any reason why they should. But when we had the computations N C 11 162 NICARAGUA CANAL. checked we found an extraordinary discrepancy between tlie figures we made and tlie figures tliey made, a discrepancy that was extraordi- nary and unaccountable. Weassunied the figures given us, aswe always did in such cases, and then checked them off and recomputed. We had the services of Mr. Jiennett in this work, a very capable and honest fellow, who was in and out of our office abnost every day, going to and fro with tlje maps and drawings and plans and really was at our disposition, although his business was that of custodian of the draw- ings of the company which we were using. In this case he went over the computation and confirmed our figures. Then, naturally, we asked liow such a thing hai)pened.. "Well, there has been an error of some sort, an inadvertence. It has been carried over from some previous error. The curious part of it is the comparative unwiilingness of the company to admit that there was an error. On page 71, Mr. Menocal says: IJoiings in the bod of the river, where excavations are needed, Avould have heeu of uuicli interest and ^•allle, hnt the discrepancy in the estimates, due to the omission of such Ijorlnj^s, njay b(5 sai'oly conuteil on tlic riglit side. I must say 1 do not quite understand what that means, except that it tends to attribute the errors to the omission of borings. On the previous page, Mr. Menocal says, at the bottom, that they intended to make a more detailed survey of the river. That was evi- dently their purpose. He goes on to say : This omission has not, however, the importance attached to it by the board. Because there was no question as to the entire practicability of that i>or- tiou of the canal, and so their engineering force was kept eni])loyed on other matters — rectifying locations, etc. — until the work Avas susi)ended, and they found the river work undone. Now I turn to page 78. It is rather odd that this discrepancy, although referred to in two or three places, has not at any other point been readily exi)lained, and, curiously enough, you find the explanation of it not under the head of the San Juan Kiver, but under thu head of Lake Nicaragua, on page 78, wher«i you would not look ibr it, and it takes up half that page in a statement as to how those discrepancies occurred. There it states : It now appears that tlirouj^h clerical error, mistaken computations, or misprint in the iirc]>aration of that rcjiort the (jnantities estimated fall short of the actual UMiount of excavation needed, and it is conceded that the estimates must be corrected accordingly. Mr. Stewakt. There is one instance where he frankly admitted the lirror? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; it coidd not very well be overlooked. It was an error the correction ol' which increased the estimate of rock exca- vation from about 4(H),(>00 yards to 1,400,000 yards. Now, on pages 81 and 81!, at the bottom, Mr. Menocal says: As regards the San Juan River, it has been stated before that the company had the free use of the surveys made for the Government by a corps of comi)etent officers under Conmnmder L. P. Lull, United States Navy, in 1872-73. There is nothing to suggest the belief that any mattaial chnnges have taken place in the channel since that date, or that a new survey untler the direction of the board would add juucli of practical value, etc. In one place he admits that the survey ought to be made, and here says that if it was done uiuler the direction of the board he has doubts as to its value — which might have been differently phrased. 1 believe that is as much as I care to say on that point. NICARAGUA CANAL. 163 I have referred, I think, Mr. Chairman, to the fact that notwith- standing elaborate surveys and the amount of time and money spent in the surveying and leveling of the section from Oclioa to Greytown there is still an uncertainty or discrepancy of 1 foot in that leveling. I do not know whether I have referred to that. There is an admitted uncertainty of 1 foot of level between those points which has not been satisfactorily cleared up and which they at least sought to amend by running another complete line of double check levels from Grey- town to Ochoa. Mr. Bennett was in charge of the work at the time the parties were hnally Avithdrawn. That 1 foot nnght make a great difi'erence — a foot less depth, for example, in making that great cut through the Eastern Divide or in" the Itiver San Juan would be a mat- ter of importance. A foot, more or less, would mean in that case quite a sum of money, certainly enough to pay for the survey. That is whcje the advantage of preliminary and full information comes in. I^ow, as to the doings of the board while in Kieanigua. That is a matter which is more personal, and which is very disagreeable to treat of, Mr. Chairman, but with the indulgence of the committee I will touch upon it, as it seems to be a necessary point to si)eak of. My. Sherman. Mr. Endicott went over that iu his statement before the committee. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And Mr. Koble also went over that subject. Colonel Ludlow. I am quite at the service of the committee, gentle- men, but there are some things I will have to explain. I hud the statement in Mr. Menoeal's testimony that we did not stop at the site of the Ochoa Dam; that we passed right by it, although he had prepared a camp there for a six days' stop, Mr. Stewart. They went over that matter fully. Colonel Ludlow. If the committee is satisfied, I have nothing more to say. The Chairman. Pursue your own course as to what to say. Colonel Ludlow. Of course, I do not know what my colleagues stated, and am at a loss as to what ground to cover. Mr. Bennett. Because you have not heard them, you are a better witness. Colonel Ludlow. I may say, and I may not say, the same thing that they did, but this ground will have to be covered. It is a matter which has its serious aspect. I referred brietly to one or two things Mr. Miller said. He is not primarily responsible for them, as he got the information from others. He states that from information from persons he believed to be wholly qualified to speak the commission spent only from twelve to fourteen days on or near the line of the canal. He evidently gets that from someone else. I had an intinuition in London before I came over here. I saw a clipping — had arranged to have clippings sent on to me — in which it was intimated the company was prepared to meet the report of the board; that Mr. JNIenocal had been keeping a diary and that at the proper time it would be shown what sort of an investigation this board had made; and I have been waiting with some interest to hear Avhat those revelations would be. I would briefly state that the undignified travesty of the account of what the board did down there is an unfortunate way of trying to meet the force of the engineering arguments and statements which are embodied in our report. It may be that our investigation was incomplete. We know it was and said so. But we did the best we could in three mouths, and we had a very important mass of work behind us, which is not referred to in Mr. Menoeal's statement, and that is the three months of work after our return, iu the investigation of the company's data. 164 NICARAGUA CANAL. Oar trip to JSTicaragiia vras to familiarize ourselves ])erso7ially with the country and tlie people and physical and moral conditions under which people would have to go there to do this work. Because we had not always lived in the Tropics, or had not been to that country before, was no reason why we should not be good observers, since we came from the same country ])robably from which other i)eople would have to come in order to inhabit the country and build the canal if it were to be built. Much stress is laid upon that point, and other things more serious. Mr. Miller says, for example — it is facetious, of course — that "I was sent abroad to investigate other canals, and it would have been better if I had been sent abroad first." Mr. Sherman. I do not think Mr. Miller was especially facetious in anything he said here. Colonel Ludlow. Wasn't he? Personally I do not feel offended at all, but I have my own way of treating those questions and can not agree with him. Probably if I had been sent somewhere else some other person Avould have been sent to Nicaragna with the same results. I do not know where he gets his information about our spending twelve or fourteen days there. He said we did not stoi) at the site of the Oclioa Dam. Mr. DooLTTTLE. That was on your way over, if I may correct you. Colonel Ludlow. There is no indication of that in the testimony. Mr. Uo (^LITTLE. Mr. Menocal's statement was that you did stop on your way back. Colonel Ludlow. He says wo did not stop there at all. Mr. Jov. That is, he said you did not stop going over. Colonel Ludlow. Let me look at that. Mr. Miller says, on page 22 : The Commission spent from twelve to fourteen days on or near the line of the canal. They never made any surveys of any kind. They never even stopped at the site of the Ochoa Dam, and of course the Commission could not have made a survey. They could not make any survey that would be of the slightest use without two or three years' time with a corps of engineers. Now that is a definite statement; that we never stopped there. Mr. Joy. We were referring a moment ago to Mr. Menocal's statement. Colonel Ludlow. That is from the record, and I have no other means of knowing what was said than that. I want to find a similar state- ment by Mr. Menocal and see if there is any qualification in that. I know there was a qualification in Mr. Menocal's statement. Mr. Corliss. He stated that on the return they stopped several days. Colonel Ludlow. I have not that, but I will briefly run through those things. I will continue with Mr. Miller. 1 hoped 1 bad some memoranda with regard to that, but I do not find any. Mr. Patterson asked, for example, whether any competent engineer in possession of the maps and profiles and all the data could not have made this investigation and report as well in his oflice in Washington as by a trip to Nicaragua. Mr. Miller agreed entirely that he could. Mr. Patterson. Beginning on page G2, Colonel, I find the following: Mr. DooLiTTLR. Before you proceed with that allow me to ask one question. Please state about what length of time the engineers spent at the Oclioa Dam, and tell about the examination that was made there at the site of the dam? Mr. Menocal. Not any. They did not examine the site of the dam. They passed by it. Mr. Bennett. If tliey p.assed by such an important piece of work, estimated to cost millions of dollars, without investigating it, what would their investigation amoTint to? Mr. Mknocai,. I am not prepared to answer that. I can only say they passed by there. I had fixed all their camps, so that they would have an o])portunity of examin- ing the most important sites, and one of the camps was at tlie Ochoa Dam itself. NICARAGUA CANAL. 165 Thoy slept here two niglita, and, as I said, they wanted one day to oxainine the adja- cent hills. I had a camp liero [exliihiting on map], and six days provisions, and a number of engineers. They arrived in tlie afternoon and locdicd aronnd for half an hour or so and came haclv to the camp. I sent the boats here to bring tliem back [exhibiting on the luaj)], aiid on the following day they found them here and brought them back, and they arrived at the camp about 4 o'clock in the afternoon. The next morning they started to look over the line of the canal and i ever had any time for an examination of the site of the dam. Mr. Stewakt. Mr. Meiiocal says, on page 59, that tliey landed at Oclioa in the afternoon of one day about 2 o'clock, and looked aronnd a little, visited the ocean, and the region of the San Carlos Basin south of Ochoa. Colonel Ludlow. That could not be so. I do not understand that, for we were 30 miles from the ocean one way and 140 the other. Mr. Stewakt. Mr. Menocal says they s])ent one day going and one day coming back, and on the second day they arrived and next morn- ing ran across to Grey town; they were six days in that section. Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir. But the complete statement, as made elsewhere, has no such qualification in it whatever, and I sliould say that no one could read that statement and believe the board made any investigation at the site of the Ochoa Dam. Mr. Stewart. All the testimony should be taken together. Colonel Ludlow. But we can not find it all together, unfortunately. Mr. DooLTTTLE. Mr. Menocal said he was speaking without notes. Mr. Corliss, lie did not read any narrative. Colonel Ludlow. If you will i^ermit me, 1 will go over this in accord- ance with my notes. We will take the pages as they come. There is not very much of it in quantity, although there may be very nuich in quality. Mr. Miller's engineering, if it is correctly reported, is the wildest I have ever read. He is an engineer of great and varied accomplish- ments. He does make one remark which strikes to where it belongs. He says that anyone can go along and note high-water marks on the banks. 1 suppose everybody Avill agree with that. The only thing that astonished us was that the company had not done it. We did it. Mr. Miller says the rise and fall is 5 feet. He has only to go down there and examine the banks, and according to the least estimate he will find that it is 15 feet. Mr. Bennett. How long were you at the Ochoa Ham? Colonel Ludlow. Three days. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Mr. Menocal says that. Mr. Bennett. Have you notes of your investigation and observa- tions? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes; notes of everything. Everybody kept notes. We would be poor Investigators if we did not keep our notes. And furthermore, if you please, the board took the trouble to furnish a copy of the minutes of the board, which gives our daily movements and whereabouts, although not very fully; we did not want to make it elaborate. The minutes tell where we went, from one point to the other. That is one of the appendixes. As a matter of fact, we got there Sunday at noon; I do not remember the day of the month. We landed there Sunday at noon and found an elaborate camp there ready for us. The camp was fixed up very hand- somely, and it was very interesting, being constructed by the natives with wood cut out of the forests. There was not a nail in it. It was a fine bungalow that would have lasted all summer. It was water-tight. There were two or three of those, and they were very neat in ai)pear- 166 NICARAGUA CANAL. ance. We landed and spent the afternoon in exi^loring the vicinity on that side. This camp was at the site of the dam — right at the site of the dam. We went over the hill against which the canal abutted. We went out on the crest line and crossed over to the canal line, where they were divergent, and made a thorough examination. In fact, I never did a harder day's work than that. ]\Ir. Bennett. For a superficial examination, do you believe you spent all the time at the Ochoa Dam that was necessarj'^? Colonel Ludlow. I know we did, and we did more than any one other engineer has ever done. We saw the whole of it. The San Carlos ridge is a very important feature, a very essential continuation of that dam. Unless you go out on that ridge and till up depressions you can not build the dam at all. I mean there would not be any dam. Mr. Sherman. You say you are the only engineers that ever saw the entire line of this canal? Colonel Ludlow. I mean the only ones who have gone over the whole of it without any serious gaps in it. Mr. Sherman. You mean Mr. Menocal has not gone over it? Colonel Ludlow. I mean, from information I regard as absolutely reliable — although, of course, not of my own personal knowledge — that we took Mr. Menocal, not that he took us; that we took him over the embankment line, which is the dangerous part of the San Francisco division, through those dangerous hills; that we took him over several Tiiiles of that line which he had never seen. Mr. Sherman. What do you base that statement on? Colonel Ludlow. On positive statements from peojile who knew. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Statements from whom? Mr. Sherman. That is a very serious statement. Colonel Ludlow. I would like to supplement it further by stating that according to the best of my knowledge and belief, and from simi- lar information, that Mr. Menocal had never been over the crest line ot the San Carlos ridge. We went over that crest line, and it was credibly stated, and I believe truthfully, that Mr. Menocal had never been over it. I have no doubt of that myself. Mr. DooLiTTLE. By whom was this statement made? Colonel Ludlow. By a gentleman who had been employed with the company JMr. DOOLITTLE. What was his name? Colonel Ludlow (continuing). A trusted engineer, who remained, as I understand, until the close and then drifted oft^ went off into other employment. We engaged him, on account of his knowledge of the country and his familiarity with it, to go down with us and help us out. Mr. J^ooLiTTLE. Did you ask Mr. Menocal whether he had or had not been over this ground? Colonel Ludlow. No. Mr. Sherman. What was this engineer's name? Colonel Ludlow. Davis. Mr. Sherman. Did he have some difficulty with the company? Colonel Ludlow. As to that, he may or may not have had. 1 do not know. I believe they had some differences toward the end, but I do not know. As I recollect it, he was retained until the close, lie was man- ager, I understand, of the steamboat line. Mr. Bennett. Eelations Iriendly with Mr. IVrenocal? Colonel Ludlow. They were. I do not like this, gentlemen. JVFr. Stewart. Were Mr. Davis's relations friendly? Colonel Ludlow. There was absolutely no indication of any x)ersonal NICARAGUA CANAL. 167 unfriendliness, and we had not any, any more tlian I referred to this morning. Mr. Stewart. Did Mr. Davis express any hostility to you to Mr. Menocal ? Colonel Ludlow. No. You do not understand that there was any quarrel [addressings Mr. Endicott]"? Mr. Endicott. No, I do not. Mr. Doolittle. I would like you to state to the committee whether or not you regard that as a friendly statement coming from Davis against the engineer of the company. Colonel Ludlow. I think it is a statement of fact. Mr. Doolittle. Do you think it was a statement of a friend? Colonel Ludlow. I do not think it M^as friendly to do it. Mr. Stewart. Would you base your opinion upon unfriendly, hostile testimony? Colonel Ludlow. I stated that was my belief. Mr. Bennett. Your statement this morning was positive. Colonel Ludlow. I desire, if you please, to check that. It was imj)ossible that I should know it myself. Mr. Joy. Were these statements of Mr. Davis made before you Avent to the Isthmus"? Colonel Ludlow. No; they were made on the ground. Mr. Joy. And he was with you in your investigation? Colonel Ludlow. Yes. Mr. Doolittle. Was Mr. Menocal present? Colonel Ludlow. No, I think not ; it was in the camp ; everybody was there. Mr. Doolittle. Not communicated to Mr. Menocal by you? Colonel Ludlow. No, sir. Mr. Sherman. Would you have given as much credence to what he said had you known he was not on friendly terms with Mr. Menocal? Colonel Ludlow. I don't know. I believe he is honest. Mr. Bennett. Would you have given as much credence then? Colonel Ludlow. I believed it then. Mr. Stewart. Did he speak in a way that was derogatory to him as an engineer? Colonel Ludlow. It was not derogatory to his capacity as an engi- neer at all. It would have been quite possible that Mr. IVIenocal, being in charge of so much work, should lind it impracticable to go over every part of the route and country along the route. Mr. Bennett. Then you don't consider it a criticism? Colonel Ludlow. I do when it comes to criticising us for not doing it. Mr. Bennett. You must be fair. Colonel Ludlow. I say I consider it a fair criticism when he criti- cises us for not doing it and makes a false assertion in so doing. Mr. Joy. Where did you find Davis? Colonel Ludlow. In Washington. Mr. Joy. You took him with you, did you, from here to the scene of the operations? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; we engaged him just as soon as I found he was unemj)loycd, and that he had been down there. Mr. Stewart. Don't you know that Davis was not there at all until 1887? Colonel Ludlow. I don't know. Mr. Stewart. And that Mr. Menocal had been there many times before? 168 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes. Mr. Stewaut. Could lie not have gone over this before Davis had seen Nicaragua, assuming ])avis had not been there? Colonel Ludlow. Ko, because that line had not been located at that time ; he had not located that crest line. Mr. Stewakt. You are sure of that? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir. It is all simple enough, except that Mr. Menocal travesties the whole thiug; and if you will read his statement you will see that he M^as trying to guide us, and we had a disi)osition to wander off in the woods, and go in bathing, etc. Mr. Stewart. Don't you think it was your duty, as a fellow engineer, to call to the attention of the engineer this criticism of Davis? Colonel Ludlow. No, sir; I do not, indeed. It was Mr. Menocal's own affair if he had not been over the line. I fourul no fsiult with it. I had no thought of making any such statement as I have made with regard to the thing at all until I find lie is travesting this thing. He is undertaking to make us ridiculous in the eyes of the world and the engineering fraternity. Mr, Joy. Did Davis give you his means of knowledge of this? Colouel Ludlow. He said it was of his own knowledge. He stated so as a fact. Mr. Joy. And by that you understood he had been with Mr. Menocal all the time on the line of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. He stated as a fact that thati)ortion — I forget just where it was; it was a part of the San Francisco embankment — that Mr. Menocal had never been over it himself. Mr. DooLiTTLB. Will you point that out on the map, if you can remember what jiortion of the line it was? Colonel Ludlow. It was the embankment line between the San Francisco and the Danta. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Between what points? Colonel Ludlow. The Danta and the Nicholson. I think I have a note of it myself made at the time; but I thought nothing of it, I assure you. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What distance would that be? Colonel Ludlow. I suppose it would be a matter, as I understand it, of 3 miles, or something like that, but a very difficult piece. It hap- pens to be a specially difficult piece of that country. Mr. Stewart. Did Davis claim to be in charge of that section when he was under Menocal? Colonel Ludlow. I don't know. He was in their confidence, as I understand it, and their manager. Mr. Stewart. Did he tell you he was in charge of that section? Colonel Ludlow. I did not investigate that at all. Mr. Joy. You took his statement without any investigation? Colonel Ludlow. Surely; I simply made a note of it, Mr. Joy. And you make the statement here that you believe it to be true without making further examination? Colonel Ludlow. Surely, How should I go to investigate a matter of that kind? Mr. Joy, There are several ways — if you ask me the question. Colonel Ludlow. It still can be investigated. Mr. Joy. But you did not investigate the statement? Colonel Ludlow. Not in the least. Mr. Stewart. You would take Mr. MeuocaPs word as quickly as Davis's, would you not? NICARAGUA CANAL. IHO Colonel Ludlow. Iiulividunlly, I? Not at all. Mr. Bennett. You would before you read that tcstimouy? Colonel Ludlow. Look liere, gentlemen, liasu't the inquiry taken a turn which is extremely unfortunate'? Mr. Joy. It has taken a turn you have caused it to take. Cohuiel Ludlow. You ask me whom I would believe Mr. Bennett. It is a question as to w^hat you say and w hat Mr. Menocal says. Colonel Ludlow. No; does Mr. Menocal say he had been over that l^art of the line"? Mr. Bennett. We have been led to believe it. Colonel Ludlow, (^uite true, sir; you have been led to believe many things. Mr. COKLiss. Colonel, where is Mr. Davis now. Where is he engaged now ? Colonel Ludlow. The last I heard, he had gone to Costa Eica. Whether he is still there 1 don't know. When we were down there, he said he was going to Costa Eica after he got through with his employ- ment with us. When he was in Costa Eica, Mr. Keith was there and said he wanted him in connection with some railroad work. Mr. CoiiLiss. He is not a Government engineer? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, no; he was formerly in the employ of the Dis- trict government here as an assistant engineer, 1 think in connection with sewer work, or something of that kind. I believe the man to be entirely honest. I really do not know about any controversies he had with the company. Mr. Menocal says, on page 48, that the Commission was in Nicaragua altogether about forty days, which, I believe,.is about correct. I do not remember exactly how long it was; the minutes of the board will show. Of these forty days, IMr. Menocal says, a total of tw^o weeks, more or less, was spent in examining the canal route, or rather the canal route and vicinity. lie says that some places they touched and others they did not. "These gentlemen traveled by the most comfortable methods, either through the woods or along the roads, so that they Avere only two weeks examining the canal from the Atlantic to the Pacific Coast. They were detained in Greytown both on the arrival and before leav- ing." He says we were only two weeks examining the canal from the Atlantic to the Pacific. I do not know that my colleagues have covered this. Several Members. We would like to have your testimony. Colonel Ludlow. He says we were detained at Greytown a week ; that they awaited the arrival of the steamer; that they had ordered their outfit, but the Connnission arrived before the steamer containing the outfit arrived, and they w^aited a week for it; that then they cleared out and went up the river. The matter of fact was we were making a survey and examination of the harbor. If the steamer had come for us before it did we would not have gone. We w^ere going up the river, taking the steamboat and going to the western division first, right up the San Juan, across the lake, making our arrangements on the west side of the lake for the inspectioint first. By that means we would have a general view of the route as we went over it. We would be getting views of the country; we would be examining the San Juan Eiver and the Lake, and then we would work back over the route in detail, foot by foot, or any other way that 170 NICARAGUA CANAL. seemed necessary. We waited a week at Greytown, it is true, but while there we were doing i)erhaps the most important work we had to do. The result of the work in Greytown is shown in our report under the heading "Greytown Harbor." That gives what we had to say on this subject. We made an instrumental survey of tTie entire beach line, which had not been made before, for four or five miles from Greytown around the cape and northward, makiug an extensive survey there. Our purpose in running that line and in running interior lines and lines on the beach was to enable the officers of the Montgomery to make the hydrographic survey. The oftshore work was done in the boats while we were gone. They did this, and it made a very valuable chart of the harbor, quite indis- pensable. That is the kind of work we were doing while we were rep- resented as waiting for this boat and clearing (Uit as soon as we got it. The freight boat came down pretty soon with our outfit — a lot of pro- visions, and instruments, and other things — and then we went up the river. The river navigation had just opened for the season. Two boats came down together ; one left on Monday, and we got oft" the next morn- ing, Tuesday. We went uj) the San Juan River. Mr. Menocal said we traveled at night. We never traveled at night; we did not travel a single night. Mr. Sherman. Where does he say that? Colonel Ludlow. He says it somewhere. It is a hard job to pick it out. I can find it if you desire me to take the time. If you see it I will be glad to have you call my attention to it. In the absence of the notes I have not the references to his testimony. Mr. DooLiTTLE. On page 59, Mr. Menocal says: I must say that they ran lines around Groytown while they were waiting. Colonel Ludlow. He doesn't say it here in the place I am referring to. Mr. DooLiTTLE. It says it on the next page. Colonel Ludlow. Further along; yes. He says: Then they went up tlie river and had to traTisfcr in the river from one steamer to another at two different points. As a matter of fact, we had to transfer at more points than two. He says further : There is only one steamer on the lake, and when tliey arrived it was not there, and the Coiniiiissiou had to stay two days waiting for this steamer. So far, in his narrative, we haven't done an earthly thing that had anything to do with the canal. Continuing, he says: In those three days they made a trip np the river running;- south, and they also took a river steamer and went out into the lake and took borings and soundings. As a matter of fact, we did more than that. We gauged the stream at Fort San Carlos, which the company had never done. We made an examination of the Frio Elver, which comes in in the immediate vicinity where the San Juan exists. We took great ])ains to get at certain bench marks at the confluence of the river and hike to indicate where the high water of the lake had reached. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How can you say they never gauged the river at San Carlos? Colonel Ludlow. From their own records. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Wliere did you find that statement that they never gauged the waters of the river at San Carlos'? Colonel Ludlow. We asked them to furnish ns with all the gaugings they had made and they did so, and we had them comi)iled on one sheet. NICARAGUA CANAL. 171 Mr. DooLiTTLE. You can not say positively that tbey never made any such gauginj4s'? Colonel Ludlow. ]S"o record of any such thing ever reached the com- pany, if you please, sir. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You can state positively that the com])any had no information as to the river at this point, San Carlos'? Colonel Ludlow. There was no record of the company liaving made any survey at that point. We asked the company to furnish us with all the records of tlio gangings they had made, and they did so, and they told us at the time that those were all the records and gaugings they had. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I know I have seen a statement as to the San Carlos. Colonel Ludlow. Tliat is the company's ganging of tlie San Juan, near the San Carlos Kiver. Fort San Carlos is a name of a station on the river at the lake Mr. DooLiTTLE. The waters of the River San Juan have been gauged repeatedly by the engineers of the company? Colonel Ludlow. Once. Mr. DOOLITTLE. At difl'erent seasons of the year"? Colonel Ludlow. Once and once only, and the record of that is defective to the extent that the level of the river when that gauging was made is not known. It was not, in other words, connected with the bench marks so as to say the river was at vsuch and such a stage when that gauging was done. If it was, it would have been of great value. Mr. Stewart. Mr. Menocal says, on page 60 : I told the Commissioiiors that the surveys and borings had all been carefully made ; that I had an accurate record of them all; tliatalarue uuniber of men were employed in the work, and that I had en,i>ineers of experience to couam from those borings, or otherwise, is that it is nothing but sand to an undttermiued depth. Mr, DooLiTTLE. Sand, clay, and gravel? Colonel Ludlow. No, sand; nothing but sand, from these borings in question. They do not go far enough to discover the deeper material, and they never found any rock there at all, although Mr. Meuocal said he believed they struck bowlders. That is rock in one sense, but not in an engineering sense. The note book of the borings said " JJelieved to be rock," and the facts were they were sand in tlie river bed and bowlders in the banks. And that made the problem more diflicult when we came to consider the question of the Ochoa Dam. Instead of hav- ing rock to base this work on, there was an undetermined depth of sand there. All that was known about it was that it was 20 odd feet in depth, and what there was below that nobody knew. I observe by these papers in testimony that Meuocal accei)ts that i)roposition. But the borings had been already made sometime before that. On page 59, Mr. Meuocal says: I had instruments at places to verify everything and they had some also, bnt no surveys were made. He had instruments at all places to verify everything ! I don't know Avhat that means. He didu't have any instruments there to verify borings. We could not have used them if he had. We had instru- ments of our own. I do not know whether we used our instruments or his; I think ours, in going up the San Juan Elver, wherever we believed information was to be obtained we would check off on the bench marks, aud make observations in the vicinity of the river which we regarded as important. We made gaugings of the San Juan River and all other streams at numerous points, and we determined the bench marks — the water marks on the bank — in order to determine what might be the variation of the river, and we found instead of it being 5 feet, as assumed, it was not less than 35 feet. In one place the information was very clear that it had risen at least 20 feet. 1 do not want to go too far on this subject. I came here at the request of the committee, aud do not want to be tedious. I will go over this journey. We went uj) the San Juan River, and we were destined at first for the Pacific division. When we arrived at Lake Nicaragua, we stopped at San Jorge, which is a wharf and landing for Rivas. We lauded our party there in charge of Mr. Davis, and his business was to collect the necessary animals for the use of the party in going over the western division. On that part of the route we could use animals. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Before you go into that, I would like to ask you how long you had known Davis before your employment of him? OoJonel Ludlow. I found I had known him when I was Engineer Commissioner of the District, and he had been employed in the District ofiice among many others. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How did you come to employ him? Colonel Ludlow. I thiidv that he met Mr. Noble or met me, and made some inquiry as to going to Nicaragua, and said that lie would like to go, Mr. Doolittle. I would like to ask you a further question. It is this: Do you knoAV of Davis having any trouble in his employment here — any difficulty here — when he was in the emi)loymcnt of the Dis- trict government? NICARAGUA CANAL. 173 Colonel Ludlow. I have never heard of any trouble that he had here. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I am informed that he got into difliculty when ho was here. Colonel Ludlow. I don't know about that. Of course, if he did, there is a record of it now iu the District Commissioners' ofllce. We sent the party to llivas to make preparations for the examination of the western division. We had an understanding with Menocal that the comjiany would use its provisions for provisioning the camps on the eastern division and we would use our provisions to take up with us and distribute on the western division. It was a very nice arrange- ment. The company had gone to a great deal of expense in making the eastern camps and getting the i^rovisions there, and were glad to use anything we had, of course, so we used what was needed for the western division, and turned the balance over to the comi>any in part as far as might be to reimburse them for the provisions they had fur- nished in the eastern division. We left everything; turned it over to the company. We landed our party at San Jorge and ourselves went to Managua. We went there to pay our respects to the Governnient, and also to look at the lake, a matter of 40 miles, about, from San Jorge to Granada. We went to Managua, tlie capital, and arrived about 8 o'clock in the evening on the same day. The President granted us a special interview the next morning at 9 o'clock, and we had the honor of presenting ourselves to his excel- lency. We took the return train at 10 o'clock and went back to Kivas. Mr. Menocal says we spent two or three days there looking up horses, and so on. We got to Kivas at night, and left the next morning. We spent no time hunting horses. Davis had taken the two days since we landed him getting horses. It would have been a serious omis- sion on our part if wo had not gone to Managua. The Government had sent commissioners to meet us at Greytown. They had received us with a salute of eleven guns, and the commandantos of the forts and garrisons called on us all the way across the Isthmus. It was all an evidence of good will, and it would have been grossly discourteous iu us had we not gone there. It involved no loss of time, for while we were taking that day and a half the preparations for our trip over the western division wore being made, and we object to the statement of Mr. Menocal, at the bottom of page 58 of his testimony, that "in the evening they arrived at Rivas, 3 miles distant, and there they stayed two or three days hunting horses and other moans of transportation to go over the line of the canal." There is no mistake about this state- ment. At the bottom of page 58 he says : They went to St. George, on the other side of the lake, where they landed and went to the capital to visit the President. Next day, in the evening, they arrived at Rivas, 3 miles distant, and there they stayed two or three daj'S. We left the next morning. Mr, Davis was down there making these arrangements. That is what he was sent there to do. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Don't you notice Mr. Menocal said that he was speaking without notes ? Colonel Ludlow. I decline to accept that as an execuse. A man before a tribunal of this kind should be lield to account for what he says. If he wants to say those things he should first consider them. A man ought to tell the truth ; I am not disposed to be unduly hard about this. Mr. DooLiTTLE. It would not have been anything wrong if you had remained there six days.. 174 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. No. It is not material, except that Mr. Menocal is endeavoring to disparage the force of our report by dis])araging the conduct and efliciency of the men who made it, and to show that we were a lot of stupid fellows, who didn't know how to do anything and didn't do it; whereas we did know how and did do it, and were doing it our way. And we are content to stand on the record. When Mr. Meno- cal holds a comniissum in the United States service, and when he comes here or anywhere else and makes such assertions, he must justify his statements or withdraw them or take the consequences. , This is not the court of last resort in this matter. Perliaps I am in error in even dis- cussing this question before you, but it is with this purpose. I was reluctant to believe that a man with whom we had associated — and what- ever he may be, however interested in this matter, ami however offended at what we may have to say — should have made such a statement. 1 thought that he would have recog?)ized that there is no personal feeling in this matter as far as we are concerned; not a word retlecting ui)on him in our report. There are discrepancies — therc^ might be anywhere — but we would not necessarily consider a man a villain Avho found them. Mr. ])00LiTTLE. That is true of every report; all kinds of engineer- ing work. Colonel Ludlow. Is it not°^ Things must be impersonal. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I say imperfections exist. Colonel Ludlow. Surely. And the longer time you take over them sometimes the more errors get in. I only wanted to say that I brought this matter up for this reason. It is not a i)ersonal matter. I have no controversy with anj^body. We hadn't at the beginning. We hadn't while it was going on. We hadn't at the linish. No friction of any kind at all, until we are confronted with this most extraordinary testi- mony by Mr. Menocal before this committee, and we challenge it dis- tinctly. I don't think I would have gone into the matter in extenso were it not that I think Mr, Menocal should have an opportunity of modifying his statement before it goes on final record. I venture to make that suggestion. It is in his interest and not mine. Mr. Stewart. You might like to modify your statement as to Mr. Menocal not going over the entire route. Colonel Ludlow. Certainly, if I found myself mistaken. Upon motion, the committee adjourned to meet at 2 o'clock the following day. Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, Wednesday^ April 39, 1S96. The Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce this day met, Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair. STATEME]^T OF COL. WILLIAM LUDLOW— Continued. Colonel Ludlow. Mr, Chairman and gentlemen, I do not know what indulgence the committee proposes to give me to-day, but 1 would like to make a brief statement in regard to the board, and then I would like, with the permission of the counnittee, to go over a little of Mr. JNIiller's testimony again The Chairman. Pursue your own course. Colonel Ludlow (continuing), I i)assed over Mr. Miller's engineering, not considering it seriously, but I learned yesterday from a member of the committee that he considered it seriously; and as his and Mr. NICARAGUA CANAL. 175 Menocal's testimony are to be taken together, I would like to go back. I want to say first, in regard to the attitude of tlie board in this matter, what might in a sense be a repetition, but it enables me to state the case briefly. We were ai)pointed as Government ofticers to do a certaii. piece of work, with instructions to go and do that work the best we knew how and to come back and report the facts. The composition of the board wjis sinii)le enough. It was in pursuance of the law which required the board to be composed of one officer of the Engineer Corps of the Army, one officer of the civil engineer corps of the Navy, and one civil engineer. I was indicated as the officer of the Corps of Engineers as, I believe, upon the recommendation of my chief, although I have no official inforuuition as to that 5 but I was selected, not by reason of any special or superior fitness to anybody else (I believe any officer of the Engineer Corps could have done the same work), but because I was iu London and semidetached, and 1 could be sent with- out disturbiug the work going on in charge of engineers of the Army. The Corps, if you like, is i)roud of its repute, and I am glad to believe has the confidence of Congress and of the country, and I am sure no individual member of the Corps could be more solicitous for its honor and welfare than myself. We all share in that, Mr. Endicott is the officer who was selected from the corps of civil engineers in the Navy — an established corjts which has done long and honorable service. What work they have done stands of record, whatever it may be, and will speak for itself. Mr. Noble is the civilian member of the board, and with regard to him perhaps I may be permitted to si)eak somewhat more freely. We were all three strangers to each other when this work began. We met for the first time in Washington. After a very intimate and thorough acquaintance night and day almost since the work began I can speak for Mr. Noble. He is one of the most capable, well informed, resolute, and resourceful men I know. He has courage and steadfastness, and he is sunlight itself for honesty, and he has a record. It is Mr. Noble who, in conjunction with General Weitzel,of the Army Engineers, built the Sault Ste. Marie Lock, and since then he has beeu engaged on other important works. I doubt if there is a man in the body of civil engineers who stands higher. He built the Memphis Bridge, one of the most extraordinary and monumental pieces of engi- neering done in this"country, and the engineers recognize him as the man who did it. He was there in the actual construction of the work. I may say, further, he is gifted with an inveterate modesty, and you have to discover his merits for yourself. That is the composition of the board. Now I will say, further, I do not believe that three men ever did more and harder work in the same length of time than we did, I know I never did, and I have worked pretty hard, too. It was a most difficult work. We understood the difficulty and importance of it. It was a work of world-wide interest, and whatever we did, and whatever con- clusion we came to or opinion we formed would be challenged and criticised and read from one end of the world to the other by every engineer who had any knowledge of such matters at home and abroad. We were acting, therefore, under a sense of responsibility of Avhose weight we were fully conscious, not to say of what might ultimately be the danger of this investigation when it came to further developments. Now, we go down and spend three months on the Istlunus and three months in New York investigating the office data, and we make a rei)ort. I venture to say that anyone who will read that report will a])preciate, at any rate, the very laboric^is and sincere endeavoj- to ascertain all we 176 NICARAGUA CANAL. could about tliis project and about the conditions, and if yon g"ive the engineers of the country a chance to read the report, and witli the appendixes and pLans which are necessary for its intelligent coTisidera- tion. I believe we shall find our own confidence in the integrity of our work confirmed by the judgment of every competent engineer in the country. That, of course, Ave believe, because we did our best. We are not infallible, and may have made mistakes, but we tried to avoid them, although there were pitfalls at every side. Then, to do this amount of work which we did, and to have it said in the testimony given before this committee by Mr. Miller and Mr. Menocal for tlie pur- pose of cheapening it. What did we do? that we wandered around the country looking- at parrots and monkeys, that Ave Avere enraptured Avith the novelty of the surroundings; and I find Ave traveled in the most comfortable manner. We tiaveled the only route there was. You either go in a steamboat up the San Juan Kiver or you travel on foot, and Ave did both. This Avandering through shady paths, you under- stand, meant traveling through tropical forests, climbing steep clay hills, and Avading swamps uj* to onr necks in Avater; and tliere was not a day Avhile Ave Avere on the isthmus, except when Ave Avere asleep, that Ave Avere not engaged mentally and physically in the investigation of this problem, and I feel free to say, and I believe I will be justified in saying, that no matter how that rei)ort may be criticised it Avill prove itself to be a more fruitful source of information and suggestion Avith regard to this canal project in Nicaragua than is contained in all the canal company's literature put together, and the company, as a com- pany, should be indebted to us for an investigation Avhich has given them more valuable information as to the nature of their oavu problem than they in all their years of investigation and research have ascer- tained. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do not you think that is rather gratuitous? Colonel LuDLOAV. Ko; I think not, if you consider our relations as professional men. We are challenged; and I Avill tell you further what makes me more indignant about this is this fact — that our report, as a report, has not reached the jiublic. They can not get it. This material that has been given here, there is not a ncAvspaper in the country that can not print the wdiole of it, if they like. These accusations against us come before the public, but our case has not been stated. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Neither has there been any objection or anything thrown in the way of the publication of your report? Colonel Ludlow. Because they can not get it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Your report Avas printed long before the other was? Colonel Ludlow. I know that engineers write me for a copy of it, and they say they can not get it from Washington. Of course, neces- sarily, there is a limited supply of them. The Chairman. It is proi)er to say that only a portion of the report has been in print. It Avas found to print it all would require several Aveeks or months, and we were anxious to have the text of the report, and the appendixes and maps are lying away Avith the expectation of having it published in conjunction with all of these hearings. Colonel Ludlow. I do not understand that the committee have any option in the matter. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Of course, when one is criticising it is easy to criticise Mr. Wanger. Would it not be well to have a reprint of that document, JSTo. 279? Mr. Sherman. I tried to make the request, and I stated to ^r. Pick- NICARAGUA CANAL. 177 ler why I desired to make the request, but he demanded the regular order, and tliat is the reason why it was not rei)riiited hist week. Mr. UooLiTTLE. There is no attempt to suppress this iuformation as far as the committee is concerned! Oolouel Ludlow. Not at all, and I beg you to excuse me from mak- ing any reflection upon the committee. I am sure no one would so inter- I)ret me. It was only the circumstances of the case in which this vol- unteer attack proceeds, and the lack of an opportunity of the public to read what we had to say Mr. Sherman. That is not quite correct, because it was printed; your report was printed, so much as has been printed, and was accessi- ble to the newspapers weeks before this other. Colonel Ludlow. Did they get them? Mr. Sherman. I do not know whether they did or not; some did, because I gave it to some of them myself Mr. Patterson. How was that, Mr. Guthridge? Mr. GuTHRiDGE (representing Associated Press), Both members of the two associated presses sent out a very fair abstract of the Commis- sion's report. I wrote an abstract of it myself, and I think covered the ground pretty fairly. Colonel Ludlow. These engineers want to get it, and they are the ones interested, and have asked for copies. They will get them in the course of time, but it added a little more urgency — perha|)S a little more warmth — here to my replies in regard to this matter that we were sud- denly and unjustiliedly attacked in a very unfair way with the aid of false and malicious statements. Now, if you please, Mr. Chairman, I would like to go back a little and review some portions of Mr. Miller's remarks which relate to the engineering, because it will illustrate the difticulty that the board has found almost from the beginning. I refer to that "elusiveness" by reason of which we are unable to get anything fixed or settled. It was all subject to change and modifications, and if objection was made to one thing a substitute was immediately offered, and so on. There are some features of Mr. Miller's statement which I am justified as regard- ing as having a somewhat serious relation to the affair, and what he has stated, if to be interpreted seriously, would probably have an important influence upon the minds of the committee. I shall endeavor to be as brief as I can. This looseness of assertion I am going to indi- cate here has not necessarily anything personal about it, but on page 12 Mr. Miller — it is only a small matter — refers to the perpendicularity of the canal banks which we declare we found there. That leaves things very pleasant in regard to the canal. It may not be an important matter, but as a matter of fact the remarks of the board relate not to the canal banks at all; it was only to some railway cuts we found there. It is a small matter, but it is like a great many others. On page 13 there is the question of locks. Now, the question of locks in this canal is a very important and a very serious matter. No such constructions as are proposed by the company in their project have ever been built of those dimensions, and particularly not of the material which they indicate. They are to be of enormous lifts, double anything that has ever been built before, and they are to be built entirely of concrete, according to the project. There is no estimate in the project for any other material. Now, Mr. Miller quotes us as saying that we admit the locks are all right. Well, we do not, as a matter of fact. We had to construct our own locks and then criticise them. As a matter of fact, the canal company had no locks. There were none on N C 12 178 NICARAGUA CANAL. the grrouiid aud tliey liad none on i)ai)er. They had no drawings of a canal lock and they had no ])]ans of oue. I\Ir. Dooi.iTTLE. Would not that simply be a matter of construction, on Mr. Miller's ]>art, of your report? Colonel LuuLOW. If you choose; but it is also a matter of miscon- struction. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Of course that would be a difference of opinion. Colonel LuiJLOW, Oh, yes; but what I am saying is that the canal company had locks neither on the isthmus nor in their oftice when we asked them for drawings of the locks. We saw all they had. They declared they were all they had. We saw a half-linished drawing of a lock which had been laid aside and not later used, and the drawings upon which the estimates were made were little sketches of a few inches large, which were simply used to get the total number of cubic yards in the locks. There were no detail drawings at all. Mr. Miller refers further down, in answer to a question of Mr, Patterson, that the rock through the country was of uniform formation. Well, hardly any kind of rock can be less uniform. It is extremely uncertain ; you droj) a boring in there and a boring in here and you meet with surprising- changes of material. You find rock where you did not expect to find rock, but clay, and clay where you expected to find rock. It is a vol- canic.country which has been upheaved and turned up and turned over, and shaken Mr. Shekman. You did not make any borings? Colonel Ludlow. Xo; we did not undertake to make borings. Mr. Sherman. I am simply asking the fact. Colonel Ludlow. No; we made none at all. Mr. Patterson. The opinion you express is from the borings they made"? Colonel Lltdlow. Assuredly; we had all their data, and that is where we got most of the information, as a matter of course, of everything out of sight. We spent three months investigating those data in New York, and the company offered it freely to us. Mr. Doolittle. He stated that the formation is absolutely of igne- ous rock, did he not? Colonel Ludlow. There is a tremendous diversity of material. Mr. Doolittle. But it comes under the general head of igneous volcanic rock? Colonel Ludlow. Yes. Mr. Doolittle. In that way it is of the same general character of rock? Colonel Ludlow. Not in the least. You can not say tliat a rock you could not cut with a chisel and a rock you can crush with your hands are of the same character. Mr. Doolittle. But it is all volcanic rock? Colonel Ludlow. Yes. Mr. Doolittle. To that extent, then, I say that it is uniform? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, but not from an engineering standpoint; it is distinctly anything else. Mr. Stewart. Mr. Miller simply said the rock was of the same for- mation in reference to sliding and disintegrating? Colonel Ludlow. That can not be stated as an engineering proposition. Mr. Stewart. Mr. Patterson asked: Did you liud tlio samo material in your boriugat NICAliAGUA CANAL. 179 And the unswer is: Yos, .sir; thore is uo tciiiloiicy of the rock to slide or (lisiutegrate. Colonel Ludlow. WliicU is a distinct error. Portions of that rock left ou the surface in a rainfall went to ujud. There is a lot of that material there. Mr. DooLiTTLE. It would not be rock, then? Colonel Ludlow. It is what the company called rock. There is rock that when you expose it to the air and rainfall disintegrates and goes to pieces and becomes mud. It only shows the necessity for the most careful investigation of that material. Now on page 14 Mr. jNliller, ou the top of the page, indicates the results of the borings at the Ochoa Dam — wait a moment, if you please. Here is a very interesting item at the top of the page. Mr. Miller, in answer to the ([uestiou of Mr. Pat- terson about the San Juan liiver, says : The San Jiiau River is a large navigable stream; is from 40 to 100 feet deep; it is 500 to 1,500 feet wide. If that were true, without qualification or some knowledge otherwise, the question would be asked at once that if we have a river 40 to 100 feet deep why should you go to work and build a canal to get up to Lake Nicaragua. Of course the river is not 40 to 100 feet deep. There is a portion where it has that depth, and that is mainly at one place, where they have a stretch of about IS or 20 miles, and that is above Ochoa Dam. Generally the channel only allows the navigation of light draft steamboats, but there are 27 miles at a stretch where you have to dredge to get a ship channel at all. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The whole 27 miles? Colonel Ludlow. The whole upper 27 miles of the San Juan liiver has to be dredged. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How deep ou the average? Colonel Ludlow. That is hard to say. The San Juan River is 10 feet deep where it leaves the lake. There are bars in the river of 4 and 5 feet deep, aud then a portion 10 or 15 feet as you come up. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You mean there is 25 miles of actual dredging and clearing out of the channel to be done? Colonel Ludlow. Twenty-seven miles. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Without a break? Colonel Ludlow. Without a break, aud the profile shows it. There might be little deeper pools, but practically you have to dredge and blast over that whole distance, aud the company's estimate shows that is to be done on their jirotile. Now, just below, on page 14, is reference to the foundations of Ochoa Dam; Mr. Miller says it is found at the site of the Ochoa Dam there was uo rock bottom: As a result of that it became necessary to find some other way to build the dam and rest it upon clay bottom so as to make it permanent and safe. There he seems to consider a clay bottom a good thing to get, but the chief engineer's statement says that the foundation of the Ochoa Dam — not the statement here but his technical Chicago paper states — that underlying the site of the Ochoa Dam the material is ''gravel, clay, aud rock, in the order named," aud the only drawing they had to show us was a cross section of the river at that i)oint, as the proposed con- struction of the Ochoa Dam. The tracing delineated the river with the saud and gravel aud clay bottom, aud underneath it was depicted a very handsome ledge of rock underlying the whole width of the river and curving nicely up ou each bank. Well, it looked from the informa- tiuu aud from that cross section like a beautiful x)hiee to build the dam. 180 NICARAGUA CANAL. Unfortunately the borings disclosed the fact that there was no rock or clay there within 23 feet. It is possible if they had gone 25 feet they may have found it, but they Avent down 23 or 24 feet and the pipe choked and they gave it up. That is one of the i)oints we insisted upon, because if you can find rock at 20, 30, or 40, or even 50 feet, it would be an extremely valuable thing. On tiie next page, however, in the afternoon's testimony, Mr. Miller states that the Ochoa Dam " of course is to be built on a sand bottom." There is no reference to any- thing better than sand, and he says: Tbe question as to whether that is sntticient or not is not a question of theory, but settled by any quantity of great public works all over tbe world. He says below : It is not necessary to repeat illustrations regarding the fact that any superstructure of any weight to-day can be built resting entirely upon sand. And evinces the tendency to take an enthusiastic view about sand as a foundation. Sand is not regarded as a desirable foundation for a dam under water if you can get rock or even hard clay, and an engineer would try a long while before he would accept the idea that he would have to build on sand. Mr. Patterson. What do you think of the practicability of building a dam on a sand bottom? Colonel Ludlow. That we discussed at great length in our report. We studied that i>roblem — -just sweated blood over it. We worked on that thing for weeks, because there was nothing else for us to do. We could not assume things. You can engineer to any extent if you assume your data, and it is a great comfort to be able to do it; but, unfortunately, with our responsibility we could not. We had to take what we had, and we had to take sand, and had to draw a plan and try to build a dam in sand with a clay bank, on a river that would rise maybe 20 feet on you, with a big stream 1,000 feet wide. Mr. Stewart. But you came to the conclusion it could be done*? Colonel Ludlow. We did, but not the way the company proposes to do it. We are pleased to find that the chief engineer concurs with us in this, and he has gone even better. He had a dam 500 feet base; it is now 1,000 feet base. Measuring up and down stream we laid out about 900 feet. We doubled the thing, and he has recently come up approximately to our figures of the cost. I did not know that (;hange had been made. 1 notice that in concluding the testimony he does not make any change in the total cost of the canal. The estimate remains about the same. Now, Mr. Doolittle (you will not mind my mentioning you), you asked the question about the width of the lake and the river channel, and Mr. Miller says that the Commission recom- mended Mr. Patterson. What page is that ? Colonel Ludlow. Page -10. Mr. Miller refers to the width of the Manchester Canal, the Kiel Canal, the Suez Canal, etc., and says the Commission recommended that the Avidth of the channel of the river should be increased to 250 feet, and he says for what reason he did not know. No one would suppose that we had given two or three pages of reasons in our report, which we are willing to submit to the engineers of the world as being absolutely sound and good reasons — substantial reasons. That is another evidence of the tendency to confuse things. He is now talking about the open river with a current — a river 1,000 feet wide. Mr. Doolittle. What would be the current after building the Ochoa Dam? NICARAGUA CANAL. 1^1 Colonel Ludlow. I do not know- Mr. DooLiTTLE. Have you made any estimates'? Colonel Ludlow. It would be very ditlicult. No; we Lave not, except in a general way, and what current there may be is a nuitter to be con- sidered. It might be as much as 2 or 3 miles an hour. Whether it would be 4 or only 2 1 do not know. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You know it would be more than half a mile an lumr? Colonel Ludlow. If you knew how high that lake would rise Mr. DooLiTTLB. At 110 feet, I mean. Colonel Ludlow, llow much higher will it go? Mr. DOOLITTLE. I am not asking that; that is not the question. I say will the current be more than half a mile tliere witli the lake at 110 feet? Colonel Ludlow. There may be no current whatever, because with a level of 110 feet it may be level all the way from the hike to tlie dam. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Have you ever estimated to see what the current may be? Colonel Ludlow. We measured the flow of the river. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I mean with that elevation? Colonel Ludlow. We made a great many estimates. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do you know whether or not you made that estimate? Colonel Ludlow. I do not know at the moment. We had no way of determining it. W^e could only make a sort of intelligent guess at it because we did not liave the data to determine it. It would certainly have some current while that lake is varying. Tlie lake is going to discharge itself, or else drown out the whole basin. You have to let the water come out during the rainy season. Now, there is a confusion between this river channel and the canal. The two things are not synonymous, and in consequence we do not call the deepening of the channel in the river the canal, and that portion is not comparable with the Manchester or the Suez, which are inclosed between banks. It would not be seriously considered practical to make a 12.5-foot channel in the river simply because the Manchester Canal has 120 of width. Now, then, about this matter of the lake channel, we Avere in favor of increasing that, and that is not regarded by them as judicious. The company tlunks 150 feet is enough, and sometimes the lake channel is called a part of the canal. It is nothing in the world but a trench made in the open lake. It is not a canal. It is only like deepening the channel of a harbor, of which we have dozens of exam- ines all over the country. The one we took as being the nearest is Mobile, for the reason that Mobile channel is of considerable length, and the materials which had to be dredged from Mobile Bay were almost exactly similar to those we found on the bottom of Lake Nicaragua. The board took the trouble while we were being delayed, if you idease, at the mouth of the river to go out in the lake and sound and measure the depth of the mud by thrusting a long pole into it and meas- uring it carefully. Nobody had done it before, and we wanted to know, and we found out there were 9 or 10 feet of soft mud. First it was about as thick as pea soup to start with. Then it gradually thickened until you got down to material through which you could not with the weight of your body thrust a pole. The material was almost exactly what was found in Mobile Bay. We asked the officer in charge of that work to tell us what kind of a side slope they would require with such material. He gave us his opinion, which was an extremely interesting 1.S2 NICARAGUA CANAL. and valuable one, tliat tho. slope of sucli ninterial at Mobile ran soTn(»- tliiiig about 15 or 20 to 1. The company's lake (jliannel lias a side slope of 3 to 1, which would be a pro])er slope, perhaps, for reasonably soft material out of the water instead of under the water. Even firm material would not stand at such a slope as that under water, and so we had to increase the slope. We had to increase the width, too, because this is a channel in the open lake, 14 miles straight away in the oi^en lake. Another ])oint I object to is Mr, Miller's asser- tion that the only object we had in increasing the dimensions of that channel was to increase the cost of the work. That is absolutely untrue and a perfectly gratuitous statement, and our own report refutes it. We give the reasons for doing that in our report, and anybody can read it, and there is no excuse for making a statement of that kind. The inference all through both his testimony and that of Mr. Menocal is that we are simply trying to increase the cost on the theory that hav- ing an unlimited treasury it did not make any difference, and while they were trying to be economical we were trying to be reckless and as extravagant as possible. The next note is on page 20, and is rather an important matter. It is perhaps worth while to look into it. It is about two-thirds of the way down the page, where Mr. Treat is referred to. He was the gentleman who built the railroad for the company at Greytown, and did it very well, and was in Nicaragua for quite a length of time. Mr. Miller says : He wrote me a letter sometime ago, stating that lie would take the entire contract for the canal and do all the work at the price named by our chief engim^cr in his estimate, we, of course, guaranteeing the quantities to be not greater than those stated in their estimates. Further than that, he oftered to build the entire canal for $90,000,000 and take no guaranty as to the actual quantities. The board, of course, was interested in this proposition of Mr. Treat, and it is an important matter. He is a responsible person and a man of repute and of resources, and we wanted to hear what Mr. Treat had really proposed to do for the company, and he was good enough to come and see us at the office, and we asked about this projiosition. This was last summer. It is quite possible there may have been somechange in the matter since then. He may have made a further proi)osition to Mr. Miller, but I do not believe he has, for last summer, while investi- gating this proposition, Mr. Treat was good enough to let us have a copy of his letter, and he said he had no objection to letting us see what he offered to do. Mr. Miller's statement is somewhat surprising unless it can be modi- fied by some subsequent proffer on Mr. Treat's part, for the reason that Mr. Treat's proi)Osition related exclusively and solely to the western division, which is the easiest and nicest pieces of work on the whole route. He made no proposition for the construction of the eastern division, and told the board he would not have anything to do with it. Now, unless he has changed his mind since then, this statement of JVIr. Miller's is entirely in error, and entirely misleading to the committee, and to ajiybody who takes account of it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You say Mr. Treat never offered to construct the entire work? Colonel Ludlow. He told us he refused to have anything to do with the eastern division. He showed to us and explained to us what he ofiered to do, and left us a (iopy of his letter. If the committee is curi- ous about it, and Mr. Treat is willing, 1 am ])erfcctly willing to furnish the committee with a coi)y of the document which ]\Ir. Treat gave us last summer as being the last proposition he had made to Mr. Miller. NICARAGUA CANAL. 183 Wc liave that in our possession. There is no secret about it. l^ow, why shouhl it be so travestied beref He made a proposition to buikl the western division attlie engineer's prices, but with certain conditious. One of the conditions was that they shoukl buikl a million dollar's worth of railroad to start with. Mr. Patterson. What did he agree to do it for? Colonel Ludlow. He agreed to do it at the engineer's prices — a,t Mr. Menocal's prices — provided they did certain things. One was that they should furnish him with a million dollar's worth of double-track railroad, standard gauge, on the western side. Mr. Stewart. What is the date of the letter? Colonel Ludlow. I can get a copy of it if you like, but I have not it with me. I have not it even in my possession. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You mean the western division from Colonel Ludlow. I mean the Pacific division; and he told us specifi- cally he would not have anything to do with the eastern division. He has been there; he built the railroad from Grey town to the hills. Eecollect these are 1890 prices; those are the prices contained in the pamphlet of the chief engineer's report on final location of the canal. Furtliermore there were other conditions attached besides the con- struction of forty miles of railroad. That means about twenty' miles of double-track railroad, at a cost of about $25,000 a mile for each track. There are other conditions attached, and one was that he offered to build the La FlorDam. He offered to build it providing the company would guarantee he would not have less than 2,000,000 cubic yards to put into it, and provided, further, whether clay, stone, or earth went into it it should all be charged up at rock prices. He made some other stipulations there, but it is not material and it only shows the nature of his proposition, and that this rendering of it is absolutely misleading. Mr. DooLiTTLE. At what amount did he agree to build the western division 1 Colonel Ludlow. As I say at the company's prices, I do not know what the total was. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Was this railroad at a cost of a million dollars to be built outside of that ? Colonel Ludlow. It was to be furnished by the company, and they were also to fnrnisli certain other things — if I remember, some dumi^ing ground or grounds, and grounds for his hospital and barracks, or some- thing of that kind, which he would not be at the expense of getting from the Government. They were to furnish a lot of things, in consid- eration for which he would do thus and so. It was a qualified propo- sition all the way through, and that is the case to-day unless Mr. Miller has received a further proposition from Mr. Treat. Now, there is a little more on the top of the next page, page 21, where Mr. INIiller says : A greater portion of this entire canal, so far as vessels are concerned, is without bottom. The river, except at points I have mentioned, is anywhere from 40 to 100 feet deep, and after yon get out in the lake over the mud I have described then the lake is from 50 to 150 feet in depth, and so on. As a matter of fact, when you take out the deep portion of the San Juan and a portion of the lake you still have only half of your canal route instead of having a greater j^art of it. On page 22 Mr. Miller says we only stayed twelve or fourteen days on or near the line of the canal, and never made any survey's of any kind. Of course, it is the same old thing. He says we refused to stop at the site of the Oclioa Dam, and of course never made any survey there. There seems a disposition all the time to misstate things and confuse language. I do not know what 184 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Miller means by a survey, but I find the same confusion in Mr, Meuocal's testimony that we did not survey this or that. Apparently surveying means doing something with an instrument, which may be that when a man is running a transit or level he is sur- veying; that he can not survey a country otherwise; and there is a con- fusion between engineering and surveying, as though the two words were synonymous, and when you are surveying you are doing engineering. As a matter of fact, surveying is only x^reliminary to the engineering and the basis of it. You emi)loy people to do that. You pay transit- men and levelmen and expect them to do their work. The engineer does not do that himself. lie is the man who considers the results and applies them to the project, and estimates. A great deal of stress is laid upon the immense amount of surveying done down there; 4,000 miles of transit line run and so many miles of levels. Well, 40,000 miles of transit line would not build the Ochoa Dam, and you can not construct a 40-foot lock with a spirit level. Engineering is something more than running over the country with a transit and level. Now, we are reproached with not having made that kind of surveys. Mr. Stewart. It is absolutely necessary, however, to have correct surveys ? Colonel Ludlow. Certainly; but you can't do without engineering. Mr. Stewart. Did you have it done! Colonel Ludlow. We had no time for that. Mr. Stewart. And they claim you did not have the time! Colonel Ludlow. I would like to know what amount of work we would have done if we had undertaken to run transit and level lines. Mr. Stewart. I understand you are criticising some i)ortion of Mr. Miller's statement as incorrect, and now you admit it is absolutely correct ? Colonel Ludlow. I do not admit anything of the kind. We made very important surveys. Mr. Stewart. Done by you? Colonel Ludlow. We made very important surveys. We made the most important surveys made on that route. Mr. Stewart. But there were some necessary surveys that you did not make. Colonel Ludlow. Oh, certainly ; there are 70 miles of river to start with. Mr. Stewart. And you would have made them if you had had the necessary time, and you consider those necessary! Colonel Ludlow. We regard them as absolutely essential, but these gentlemen say we made no surveys. Well, we did. Mr. Wanger. Did I understand you on yesterday to say that the exact length of the San Juan River had not been determined! Colonel Ludlow. It has been determined. It was determined orig- inally by Childs in 1853, and Childs was quite accurate in his work. There was a i)reliminary reconnoissance confirming Childs, made by the Lull survey in 1872, and they quite agree. As it happened, the canal company have thrown oft" 4 miles of that length by in.'idvertence, or otherwise. The length of the river as stated in the canal company's project is 4 miles less than that. We call attention to that in our report. It is some error which has crept in, and we simply wanted to correct it. We do not know where that 4 miles is. It may be in some place where it may require a good deal of work, but it did not matter in that distance, because we have used the Lull survey as the basis of the estimate. NICARAGUA CANAL. 185 Mr. Booi.iTTLE. It might be soinewliere wliero it would require a great deal of work, and the company left it out intentionally to deceive somebody? Colonel Lttdlow. 1 do not tliink that; I think it came in by inadver- tence. You will iiiid that stated in our report. Since you asked about the length of the river, I answered your question. It is about 09 miles, in round nund)er, from the lake to the Ochoa Dam, and 120 miles, if I remember it, all the way to the sea. Mr. DciOLiTTLB. You would deem them quite capable in that they left it out i)urpose]y to deceive somebody, nccording to the vstatement you made yesterday relative to the foundations of the locks'! The Chairman. I submit that that is not a proper lino of interroga- tory. Colonel Ludlow. It is unprofessional. The Chairman. That is not a matter the committee are interested in at all. Mr. DooLTTTLE. I am interested in itat least, Mr. Chairman, as a mem- ber of the committee. The Chairman. I do not think that is fiiir to the witness or a proper line of interrogatory. 1 f the committee declares its sense, it shall be Mr. DooLiTTLE. I do not care to put the committee to any such trouble at all. Colonel Ludlow. Well, further along on p;ige 22 — I do not care to stop over this too much — Mr. Patterson inquired whether Mr. Miller did not think any competent engineer could sit in Washington, and with the data which our board had have as good an opportunity to arrive at a correct conclusion as we had, and Mr. Miller said "certainly he could." In other words, Mr. Miller seems to think our visit to the Isthmus was practically fruitless, and we might have saved the time and expense of traveling and stayed in New York or Washington and made our report there. We can not agree with him. We got important data and we made important surveys. We surveyed Greytown Llarbor, and made the most comi)lete survey of it that has been made. We had the advantage of the officers of tlie Montgomery ^ who did the hydro- graphic part, wdiile we did the shore part. They did the offshore work while we did the shore work. We sur- veyed the west shore of Lake Nicaragua, and wherever we crossed a stream aiul had an opi)ortunity of measuring and getting an idea of the quantity and the height of the floods, etc., we got it, and so we have been able to correct the hydraulic data in a very marked measure. We regarded that as a very valuable result obtained by our visit. We also had an experience of the heat and other conditions that affect labor there, and that is an important matter. There was not much we could do we had but three months and we wanted to go to Costa Eica and Panama and we had to make the best use of our judgment, and we did that. We only had six months' time to do the whole thing in. The law was absolute on that point in that the report had to be in the hands of the President on or before the 1st day of November. The Secretary of State called our attention to that fact, and the whole appropriation was only $20,000, of which an allotment of something- less than $15,000 was for the salaries of the board, $5,000 to each, less whatever they might be receiving from the Government as salaries. So you can see we were extremely restricted. We had to take every- thing from New York, which was an expensive affair, because we could not get what we wanted on the Isthmus. We w^ent on and finished the work to the best of our ability, employing all the time and all the 180 NICARAGUA CANAL. money, and when we found our .appropriation was about run out, or certain to be exliausted, we held a council of war and determined to go on anyway, and did go on to the extent of having expended some $5,000 or $6,000 of our own money in order to complete our investiga- tion and make our report as satisfactory as we could. Mr. Stewart. You are getting a farther a])propriation this year in an appropriation bill in this Congress f Colonel Ludlow. I do not know, sir. Mr. Stewakt. Will not that be reimbursed to you? Colonel Ludlow. I do not know about that. I submitted the matter to the Secretary of State, and he was good enough to say he would have it included in some estimate. Mr. Stewart. I think it is iu one of the estimates and in one of the appropriation bills. Colonel Ludlow. How the matter stands I really do not know. I might perhaps have omitted any reference to it, but since the work we did was challenged I wanted the committee to understand we did the best we could, and perhaps a little more. We spared nothing, either ourselves or our resources. Mr. Patterson asked if we could not have stayed in Washington just as well. Mr. Miller wisely put at the bottom : Starting upon the premises as to what we have giveu him is true. He meant, of course, all the facts were correctly gathered together. It seems the Bogart board sat in ISTew York, and got into serious trouble because the borings giveu them to examine and to go by were not cor- rect. They stated that the locks were to be founded on rock, and this was a very serious error. It would be interesting to know who supplied the board with those rock borings. Now, the matter in regard to Mr. Donaldson has been sufficiently stated. He is quoted, on page 24, by Mr. Miller, with coming within $1,000,000 of Mr. Menocal's estimate, and on page 11 his estimate is stated as less than $100,000,000. On page 24 Mr. Miller states: Everyone knows you can go along the river and tell what the high- water mark is. The rise of the San Juan River is from 4 to 6 feet. Now, it is incredible Mr. Miller should have made that statement seriously as a physical fact of the San Juan River. He never could have made it if he had taken the trouble to look at his own water- marks. He says anybody could. We did, and looked at them with a great deal of interest and carefully investigated among the natives as to what the marks were, and now the committee is supposed to believe that the rise of the San Juan Eiver is from 4 to G feet. We know it is 14, 15, IG, and 20 feet, as we actually measured it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. At what point would it reach that height? Colonel Ludlow. The highest point is at the Machuca Rapids, about 18 miles above the site of the Ochoa Dam, where we were able to get a satisfactory determination of where the water reached. We treat of that in our rei:»ort. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, at a point as low as Ochoa would the water be up at that height at the same time it was at the height you speak of at that point? Colonel Ludlow. That would depend. Those are things difficult to answer. The San Juan River, while it does rise and fall through a wide range, is in no sense as violent a river as the San Carlos, which comes in above the Ochoa Dam. It might be a sudden flood came down NICARAGUA CANAL. 187 the San Carlos and tlie water be higher at the dam than farther np the river. Tliat lias actnally liappened. A current upstream has been actually observed, owing to the San Carlos coming down with a great flood and temporarily got rid of it by going upstream and downstream both. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You do not mean for the committee to understand thei-e is a rise along the whole length of the river of 14 to 15 feet? Colonel Ludlow. Only at points wliere you can measure it, of course. We found plenty of them. We found owe near Ochoa of 15 feet. Mr. Sherman. Eight at that point Senator Miller says the river has never done serious damage to the country. Do you claim that is an incorrect statement *? Colonel Ludlow. I do not know anything about it, and nobody knows. It is a wilderness. There are only a few haciendas and plan- tations along the banks of the river, the population is extremely limited, and buildings are very few. All that Atlantic side is almost without po]>ulation. The San Juan River in the upper section as far as the Ochoa Dam has quite high banks and shores. When you get below this you get into the delta, and then it is all a vast swamp and wilder- ness. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What was the occasion of the rise of the river par- ticularly at the point where you discovered these banks marked this rise? Colonel Ludlow. There might be two reasons. There might be a meeting of two floods, one out of the San Carlos upstream, and one out of the San Juan downstream. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do the banks approach each other more closely? Colonel Ludlow. The banks come in, and there is a rocky bottom, but the bed of the San Juan above where the San Carlos comes in is fairly stable. It has a great big, wide valley, 900 or 1,000 feet VAide, 500 feet in some places and 1,500 feet in some other places. It is a fine stream. Now, on the next page, 25, perhaps it is not worth while to go into these details, but Mr. Miller makes some statements in regard to earthquakes. I do not know whether it is worth while to state it or not. He says that the motion of an earthquake at the surface of the earth is very shght. I suppose jjeople who live in earthquake coun- tries would be very glad to be sure of that, and that really to enjoy an earthquake you have to go to the top of a church spire, so as to get 100 or 200 feet above the ground. Our board got very valuable informa- tion about earthquakes and volcanoes, which was a vital question, aud we investigated it as far as we could, and one of the appendixes to our report is a pajier by Professor Pittier, of Costa Rica, who is a perfectly competent man, and a scientific man, and he, at our request, prepared some notes and data on that subject which are extremely interesting and valuable, and very reassuring, if you like. It is largely upon information derived from him that the board felt satisfied that the work could proceed without regard to the contin- gencies of earthquakes. At the top of page 20 Mr. Patterson inquired about the harbor at Brito, in regard to the difficulties there — I beg pardon. There is one other matter I want to suggest. At the bottom of page 25 Mr. Miller recurs to the question of locks, and suggests if anybody ai)prehends there is any danger of the locks from earthquakes they can be built of steel. It only shows the willingness to change the proposition and modify it by something else to meet objection, which is a perfectly rational thing to do, but it also shows the eiusiveness of the project as a project, that you can not pin anything down. Now. in 188 NICARAGUA CANAL. re.£:nr(l to the liarbor at P>rito, Mr. Patterson wanted to know about the importance of the work. Mr. Menocal says in liis travesty of our doings tliere we ran from llivas to ]>rito on tlie l^icific coast, and h)oked around a little and took a bath, and then went back to camii. That is all we did, apparently. Now, as a matter of fact we spent the greater i)art of the day there and made observations w liicli satislicd us in regard to the physics of the place and other matters which we afterwards found extraordinarily valuable in considering the construction of the harbor there. We observed two things right off. One was that there was a strong breeze blowing offshore that confirmed the statement that the trade winds blew entirely across the isthmus ami out to sea on the l*acitic side. It was a fresh breeze and w^e were on the top of a liill and we had to hold on a bit. Furthermore, we observed that while the water was entirely calm there was a surf breaking on the beach not less than 5 or 6 feet in height. Even with the calm weather the surf was breaking on that shore. Those are the things an engineer wants to get. He does uot note them with tlie transit or level, but he notes them with his mind. We noted other things. We noted that the site of the last rock on that side was in a place where w^e did not believe there was auy solid foundation wiiatever. It looked like a very dangerous place, although the books we had to go by, the oi'licial report of the caual company, esti- mates for rock to be removed at the site of that lock. Now, it was diffi- cult for us to believe there was really any serious quantity of rock at that point, and of course we made a note of the fact and later investi- gated it. We found that the estimate of 1890 was completely in error as to there being any rock there. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is it not in exact conformity with the estimates to remove material where the material was not absolutely known to esti- mate upon the basis as given for the removal of rock 1 Colonel Ludlow. No ; really, as a matter of fact that is not quite true. Mr. DooLTTTLE. Is uot that about true? Colonel Ludlow. No; not about the truth. Tlie fact is, there was a boring made at the site of that lock, and this estimate was made in 1890, and we got the original memorandum of it. We got the notebook of Mr. Hunt or some one of the company's engineers, and we examined it to see. There w^as but one boring made at that time, and the engi- neer reported that his auger — that is all he had ; he was not boring with a drill, but he was boring with an earth auger which would not go through a chip, but would go through soft material — he reported something hard down there, whether rock or something else. Now, that is abso- lutely all the information on which that Lock Ni). G is estimated for as almost the exact quantity of rock to be taken out of that site, Mr. DooLiTTLE. At what depth did they go there; do you recollect? Colonel Ludlow. They struck this thing, I forget, 20 feet or some- thing; it may have been a sul)merged log in the nuul that fetched the anger up. You will find in the official report of the chief engineer for 1890 — the official report: — that at lock No. C there is to be removed not less than G1,G98 cubic y.ards of rock. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Now, is not that estimated for in the estimates of the company as rockwork, and does not it embrace a portion of the cost in accordance with the company's estimates'? Colonel Ludlow. How is that arrived at? Mr. DooLiTTLE. I asked you if that is not true? Colonel Ludlow. I do not believe it is absolutely true; I do not really believe that indication is sufficient. NICARAGUA CANAL. 189. Mr. DoOLTTTLE. I Say to remove that rock of course would add to the expense of construction. Colonel Ludlow. I beg your pardon. I do not agree with you. The fact is that rock would have cheapened the construction. Mr. DoOLiTTLE. It might Colonel Ludlow. I am sure it would, as I will tell you later if you wish to know. Mr. DooLiTTLE. It is more expensive to remove rock than earth. Colonel Ludlow. But there are other things to be taken into account. When you want to build a lock you would like to have a rock bottom to build on. A lock is a very dangerous construction, and you get the best foundation you can, and rock is very desirable, even if it costs more; but as a matter of fact you will find, if you will look at the revised estimates of the company in 1895, made at our instance last summer after Sr further investigation of that site, the borings disclosed the unwelcome fact there was no bottom to it. It was soft mud as fav as the borings went. They could not even find a liard place. The result was the company added $250,000 to the cost of that lock for putting in a foundation. The removal of the rock had been estimated for at a cost of $77,000, and by the fact there was no rock there the cost was put at $250,000. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is it any more important in a matter of this sort to have a natural rock foundation than that any of these great dry docks being constructed by the Government should have a natural rock foundation'? Colonel Ludlow. Well, there is no necessity Mr. DOOLITTLE. I say there is no greater need of a rock foundation in a lock than in a dry dock ? Colonel Ludlow. It is very desirable to have it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But I say it is not more necessary; one is as much important as the other, is it not? Colonel Ludlow. In some senses I should say it is, but I am not really as familiar with the construction of dry docks as I tbink my colleague in the ISTavy is. Mr. Patterson. Your judgment is, it is entirely practicable to build a lock in that soil, but it would be cheaper and better to build it by excavating rock? Colonel Ludlow. If you can find a rock bottom for it I think you have got as good a piece of bottom as you can find. The next best to that, perhaps, would be a tough, hard clay, and sand would be a very dangerous thing to work in for a small structure of that kind, compar- atively — 1 mean small in relation to its enormous weight. You would rather not get sand unless you would be sure you can keep it confined; you certainly do not want mud. You would look for some other place, that is all. Mr. Patterson. And disconnected rock would be expensive, too? Colonel Ludlow. You would not want that. A mixture of bowlders and sand and clay makes a very poor bottom. You want something coherent and uniform, if you can get it. You do not want to build one corner of the superstructure on rock and have the other corner resting on something that would give way, but you want a uniform bottom, so that you could have the whole uniform, even if you have ])Oor material, and have it uniform, so the settlement and weight would be equally distrib- uted. I believe that is all of Mr. Miller's testimony I care to note. The Chairman. Does that conclude that branch of the subject? Colonel Ludlow. For tlie moment. I was going to Mr. Menocal's statement^ ^iiiali was unfinished on yesterday. IDO NICAKAGUA CANAL. Tlie CiiAriiMAN. J only want to .sug<;est after you were tlirougli with your statement I wanted to ask a i'ew questions. Colonel LuuLow. 1 am entirely at the disposal of the eonnnittee for any length of time. Since the eonnnittee has called for me, and since we have embarked ui)on this matter in consequence of the attack made on the Commission, 1 am (juite willing to see the thing right through, although I am in no sense prepared for it. On page 51, Mr. Menocal states the following: I have made observatious as to the rainfall aud discharge of the stieaiua and other meteorological couditious. That is partly true, and in reply to a question from the chairman — Your oLservutioiis have euablod you to understand every class of phenomena aflect- ing the canal? The answer to thart is — Entirely. He says: I do not know that I have a hnowledgo of what is termed the tegimen of the rivers, but I have the maximum and minimum of the rainfall and the Hoods for a number of years. N^ow, I do not understand that statement. Nobody knows the max- imum flood or minimum flood; no observations have ever been made. The maximum flow of the San Juan has never been measured or noted, to anybody's knowledge, and as far as the rainfall is concerned, we found the company's observations were extraordinarily incomplete, consider- ing the seriousness of that item down there. They had a three years' record at Greytown, which was all very well and good. If they had a three years' record of the San Francisco Basin, it also would have been valuable where these great clay dams have to be built under the rain- fall, and the Board found reason to believe the rainfall in the San Fran- cisco Basin might be at times, and even for long periods, as heavy as it was at Greytown. Over on the western division, where the rainfall is much less annually than on the eastern division, we ourselves exjieri- enced a tremendous downfall, which, according to Dr. Flint, who was the observer at Rivas for that region, was a 3-inch rainfall. I mean 3 inches in an hour. We thought it might be. Mr. Stewart. In answer to the chairman: Have those observatious been preserved? He answers : Yes, sir; they have during the time I was there. They have not been peeserved for an uninterrupted series of years, as they should have been, because we have not remained in the country permanently ; but during the time I was there I made observations regularly. Colonel Ludlow. Everything needs explanation. During the time the company was there they did not observe the maximum and minimum floods. Mr. Sherman. But Mr. Menocal says he did? Colonel Ludlow. That is the trouble, Mr. Sherman. Do you mean to say he did not? Colonel Ludlow. They have not the records. He may have observed it, although he qualifles himself in saying so. It may be true he did observe it, but if he did he made no notes of it. Mr. Sherman. That you have seen. He may have noted that, but you do not mean to say he has not noted that? NICARAGUA CANAL. 191 Colonel Ludlow. Would lie have kei»t that from us when we were investigating- this thing last suiiinier, and when we were in communi- cation with the caiKil otlice every day, writing letters, etc."^ Mr. DooLiTTLE. Did yon ask for this specihcally i Colonel Ludlow. ForAvhat? Mr. DooLiTTLE. In regard to the rainfolls. Colonel Ludlow. We asked for everything they had. Mr. DOOLITTLE, But did you ask for this specitically? Colonel Ludlow. I am not trying to get away from you, I am going to tell you all I know about it. The correspondence speaks for itself. We did ask, as a matter of fact, for all rainfall observations, and got them as far as we could, and we recorded them as a part of the report. We asked for all river gaugings, and we got those and recorded them, and they are a part of our report. That is specific in both cases. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I want to ask you a question right there. Was Mr. Menocal at the company's headquarters during all the time you were doing your work in New York, or was he with you? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, no; he was sometimes with us. As I under- stand, h^ vwas not regularly in the com^^any's oflice, but he was fre- quently in there, as I understand, and it was close by ours. Mr. Meno- cal had his own duties over in Brooklyn. We started to have confer- ences together. We found it took up unnecessary time for him to come from Brooklyn to New York and back again, and took him away from his work, and we found afterwards it was more convenient to make the inquiries we wanted to get from him by correspondence. The canal comj^any placed everything at our disjiosal, and they almost placed entirely at our disposal Mr. Bennett, who was one of the engi- neers and draftsmen, and who came to and fro in and out of the ofiice. If we wanted anything we sent in to Mr. Bennett and he would send it over or see Mr. Atkins, the secretary, who would of course instruct Mr. Bennett. Mr. DOOLITTLE. This request was not made of Mr. Menocal himself? Colonel Ludlow. Of Mr. Menocal himself, personally'? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes. Colonel Ludlow. Well, the record would show. We have copies of all the letters we sent. It may have been addressed to Mr. Menocal. Sometimes the letters would be sent to Mr. Menocal at the company's oflice, and it might be answered from there, possibly, if it was a routine aflair, without being referred to him. Mr. Patterson. It perhaps did not occur to you if he made the observations they would be found elsewhere than in the company's record ? Colonel Ludlow. We could not expect to look for them elsewhere. There is where they ought to have been because they were so extremely important. Mr. Stewart. You note he states these observations have been observed by him? Colonel Ludlow. And that the observations made were noted, but I assure you that these things are carefully recorded as well as we know how. Mr. Stewart. He says he made these observations, and that these observations have been preserved. He states that on page 51. Colonel Ludlow. What do you infer from that? Mr. Stewart. I infer you contradict that statement. Colonel Ludlow. Now, what do you infer from that ; do you mean as a matter of fact he has furnished observations to someone showing the maximum and minimum floods? 192 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Stewart. That is my undeistanding. Colonel Ludlow. The canal eoini)any, as a company, knows noth- ing about it, nor any member of it. If Mr. Menocal has these obser- vations it is not of knowledge in the company's office, for they gave us everything they had freely and fully. Mr. Stewart. Did you specifically ask for this data? Colonel Ludlow. Surely; and recorded what they gave us. We were trying to get the i^lane of the rivers, which would have been very valuable to us if we could have found what the height of the water surface was at that time. There is no such record. On the top of the next page (52) he says : The largest flood which has occurred in the San Juan River was 42,000 cubic feet per second. That explains that other statement of the maximum and minimum flood being noted and preserved. That datum relates to the only time the company ever gauged the San Juan Kiver, and that is when they got the 42,000 feet, or approximately, and we got a record of that. That was important. Then after we got the record we were unable to determine from all the statistics we could get what the height of the river was at the time the observation Avas made, but from the quantity given it is perfectly evident that the river was not very much more than the moderate fall stage. There is no question about any flood, because the water marks were so much higher. I now look at a paper formally i^repared by the chief engineer as a contribution to the World's Columbian Water Congress in Chicago in 1893. This was pre- pared by the chief engineer, and contains a great deal more engineering information than all the company's official reports, and we have had frequent occasion to go over that and the other, or both, as they are both official. This is more particularly, however, addressed to the engineering fraternity of the world. Now, on page 19 of that a state- ment is made which relates to the only gauging the company made: The flow of tlie San Juan at Ochoa at high flood in both tlie San Carlos and San Juan has been found by careful gauging to bo 42,000 cubic feet. Now, that agrees with this statement here of 42,000 feet, although here it says "iu largest floods." Immediately following in the text the statement is made — The river is known to have risen somewhat higher, but as no gauging was made at the time the above figures are arbitrarily increased 50 jier cent to allow for a greater rise. Evidently the observations did not cover the high points, because the chief engineer states the river is known to be higher. I think, gentlemen, you are getting an idea of some of the difficult features we had to contend with in forming an opinion about these matters of which there is such a diversity of opinion. The failure of two statements about the same thing to cohere, some in direct oj^i^osi- tion to the facts, made the investigation extraordinarily difficult; and yet if you will read our report you will find it is impartial and imper- sonal, and constructed on a purely engineering basis witliout reflec- tions on anybody. We impute nothing to anyone, and then coming before this committee we find everything imputed to us — imbecility, incompetency, inadequacy, and Mr. Sherman. Where do you find that? I have not read anything to that effect here. Colonel Ludlow. You read this as I have been reading it. I read it night before last until 4 o'clock in the morning in order to come before NICARAGUA CANAL. 193 the coiiiiuittee and talk about it. I did not stay up that late la«t night, although 1 was a little late iu getting down here. I beg you to believe I am not endeavoring to trifle with the committee about these uiatters. I recognize their seriousness, and I am fully willing to accept the responsibility for everything I say here, and if anyone will show me to be in error I will be the first to make acknowledgment. Mr. SiiEKMAN. I think that statement is au error. Colonel Ludlow. Which? Mr. Sherman. That anybody has imputed to you "imbecility," which you stated just now? Colonel Ludlow. Now, look here. We were three grown engineers — men of lifty odd years of age; and they come here and say that we wandered about; that we were fascinated with the novelty of the Trop- ics, and that getting to the shore Ave bathed Mr. Sherman. Was not that proper? Mr. Ludlow. I am sorry that it should be found necessary to note it. We thought it was a proper thing. We needed it; but to have inferred from that our inability to handle this canal i)roblem Mr. Sherman. I do not think anybody could so construe it. Colonel Ludlow. I trust not. I will ask the committee to ])crmit me to go back a moment to Mr. Miller's statement, and if so, 1 will promise not to do so any more. It is iu regard to the construction on the river if the Ochoa Dam should fail. That is on page 14 of Mr. Miller's testi- mony, which only shows how difficult it is to tell the truth. You have to be very careful in engineering questions. It is a delicate matter and you have to qualify yourself and to be sure, because what you say may be capable of misconstruction and people will not understand you. Even in ordinary nuitters it happens that way, and in technical matters it is very difficult and you have to be very guarded. At the bottom of the page Mr. Bartlett inquired: Sujipose the dam gives way, would it destroy the canal? Mr. Miller says : No, sir; the water would go down the original channel of the San Juan and the canal would be left dry and uninjured. Well, that is true. It was in reference to the statement made by the board that the failure of the dam would destroy the navigation. Mr, Miller considers, however, it would not injure the canal; that the dam might fail, but it would not injure the canal, and that the water would go down the river and the canal be left absolutely safe and unharmed, and he takes the precaution to suggest also that it would be left dry. Now, how much canal is there when the water is out of it? Where is your canal'? It is a mere trench iu the ground. Mr. Doolittle. I would like to state in that connection it has been stated to members of the committee that all the embankments along these basins below there would be destroyed by reason of the giving out of the dam. That is the reason why this statement was made there. Colonel Ludlow. Then that needs qualification. Mr. Sherman. If the dam gives way, would it destroy the canal? Mr. Wanger. You seem to agree with him. Colonel Ludlow. I think the canal, as a canal, would disappear. It is not a canal without water in it. Mr. Patterson. Evidently Mr. Bartlett had in mind perhaps if the dam was washed away or destroyed that the effect would be to injure N c 13 194 NICARAGUA CANAL. the locks, because of tlie giving iu of the banks and obstruction of the trench? Colonel Ludlow. Well, as far as the locks are concerned, they would be on the other side of the divide, and possibly Mr. Stewart. You can remove the water from a goblet and the glass itself will not be injured, and the same way witli the canal. Colonel LiTDLOW. Is an empty goblet a drink of water? Mr. Stewart, ^ot at all. But it is not the cause of that glass of water, and the canal itself and the physical conditions of the embank- ments, etc., are great items, which I take Mr. Bartlett iu his question had reference to ? Colonel Ludlow. Very well, I will be pleased to answer that; but at the same time I would answer Mr. Miller's idea that, the water running out of the canal, the canal would be uninjured, that a canal without water is still a canal. Mr. Joy. The idea is the cost of building the canal is $150,000,000, does not mean the water shall be manufactured to fill it up, but the water we get for nothing. The destruction of the canal would not be the destruction of the water. There would be too much water, per- haps, at different places, but the cost of the canal is what it cost to build it, $150,000,000? Colonel Ludlow. That is quite true. Mr. Joy. That is apj)arently the intention of the question. Colonel Ludlow. I think it quite likely. AVe make the point it would leave navigation stranded and do great damage below. Mr. Patterson. Let me put it to you in that connection. Suppose the dam at Ochoa should be washed out, and the flood would go down the river, as stated here by Mr. Miller? Colonel Ludlow. That is stated in our report. Mr. Patterson. Now, would that affect the channel of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; I think it would — very seriously. Mr. Patterson. In other words, if the dam was reconstructed, would anything have occurred in the meantime to interfere possibly with the navigation of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. Well, I will answer that directly. The point of danger to the canal banks in the case of the failure of the Ochoa Dam would be this great embankment, which 2 miles below the Ochoa Dam constitutes the banks of the canal. There are tremendous great clay fills, and it is Avhat is known as the San Francisco embankment, and the outrush of this great body of water downstream would undoubt- edly have a very serious effect and might have a destroying effect on those banks. Mr. Doolittle. Well, if they are built of sufficient thickness and of proper material rightly placed, you do not think these banks will slide in or out? Colonel Ludlow. A clay till with such a body of water pouring against it melts away pretty rapidly. You remember the Johnstown flood? ]\Ir. DooLTTTLE. Quitc Avell. Colonel Ludlow. There were some features in connection with that which somewhat apply to this, supposing that dam should break at Ochoa. Furthermore, you would have the stranding of the ships which might be in that canal, which would not be very comfortable for them. Mr. Doolittle. But you believe these embankments might be so constructed that they would stand? Colonel Ludlow. Kot easily; no, sir. NICARAGUA CANAL. 195 Mr. DooLiTTLE. Not easily; but 1 mean with professional ease. Colonel Ludlow. They never would stand that kind of a rush. I think the action of a powerful current against them on the outside would be very destructive. Any engineer will tell you that. Then, there would be no canal at all until you could build it again, and for four or live years trafdc would cease until the dam and banks were restored. I noted that, because I thought possibly some members of the committee wanted information on that snbject, as it was an interesting point. In regard to the tlood in the San Juan, we have two differing statements of that tlood by the chief engineer, one in one paper and one in the other, relating to the same subject and same observations. Mr. Wanger. Is there any serious difficulty except the expense of facing the embankments from the cut? Colonel Ludlow. The San Francisco embankments ? It would proba- bly be extremely desirable to cover them with a riprap of rock to j)ro- tect them from the wash of the rainfall. Mr, NooNAN. The testimony here is that these clay banks are not susceptible to rainfalls, and that they stand there well. Colonel Ludlow. Yes; another misapprehension, you see. If the committee has that idea, I woukl like to correct it. Mr. NooNAN. We would like to hear that, because the specific state- ment was made here that the marks are still visible made in the cuts, etc., while at work there? Colonel Ludlow. Precisely; the board makes that statement. We put that in our report. Mr. NooNAN. Then, what is the necessity for rijirapping? Colonel Ludlow. For the simple reason that a cut in solidified material is a very different thing from xjiliug up material to make a bank. You get in one case the earth naturally consolidated in which to make that cut. When you undertake to take that material out and dump it and try to solidify it, there is where the trouble begins, and that is the serious problem relating to the building of these dams in order to solidify them and make them hard, compact, and water-tight against these tremendous amounts of water. Mr. DooLiTTLE. That would be tamping and all that process which you use? Colonel Ludlow. In my mind I do not know exactly how you can do that, and as we say in our report it is difficult. Ordinarily it would be done by animals hauling rollers over it trying to solidify it in six inch layers. That is the way a reservoir bank is built, but in this case you possibly can not get your animals out on this bank. You have got there a vast quantity of clay which is mud when you wet it, and it will never have a chance to get dry, and you can not roll it over, and if you try to put animals out on it they could not get far enough to pull anything, and you will find in the report there we suggest it will probably have to be done by overhead cable which you would use to deposit material, and you use the same power, if you choose, to haul these rollers to and fro. You can not adopt ordinary methods of doing it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do you assume the land can be solidified so as to make it imi)ervious to water by this process? Colonel Ludlow. I do not assume, but I should hope to do so; I should try to do so in some way. That construction, you understand, of clay dams is really one of the most serious things in the engineering. Mr. DOOLITTLE. It is the most important in this thing"? Colonel Ludlow. It is extremely important for the construction of that San Francisco embankment; and it is admitted by the chief engi- lOG NICARAGUA CANAL. neer himself tliat he regards it as the most difficult and dangerous work on the whole route. ]\lr. DooLiTTLE. That is the real key to a large part of the situation, so far as the caual |)roject is coucerned. That was the strip you said Mr. Menocal had uot passed over yesterday ! Colonel LuiJLOW. Yes, sir; there was some portion of it there. There are two lines there — the canal liue and the embankment line. The canal goes through the bottom of the basin, and you do not do any- thing on the canal line because it is drowned out. Mr. Menocal says he regards that embankment line as the most dangerous part of the whole work. ]Mr. DooLiTTLE. The most important part, does he not state"? Colonel LuDLO\Y. Where does he speak of that? Mr. Endicott. He says that is the weakest part. You will And it in the report of 1890. Mr. Patterson. That is immaterial. Mr, DOOLITTLE. Of course it is. I merely referred to it in passing and do not care to take up time with it. Colonel Ludlow. We had that matter about having passed by the site of the Ochoa IJam and, I only wanted to say we landed Sunday after- noon. AVe took that afternoon to examine the site of the dam and the whole vicinity of it on that side. There w^as not much to see, but we went on up the line of the crest and put in a most difficult afternoon's work, and the next morning we crossed the river and examined the other bank, went over every slope, examined the hills where the dam was to land, and continued and went on uj) this San Carlos ridge 10 or 12 miles. ]\Ir. DOOLITTLE. Where is the earth, to come from to build this San Francisco embankment *? Colonel Ludlow. It was proposed to take the greater part, or i^er- haps all of it — the canal project rather indicates they should get the whole amount of it, from the excavation of the east divide cut. There is a very heavy body of clay overlying the rock and it is proposed to use that. There is not really, as a matter of fact, enough clay in that divide to build these embankments. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But there is plenty in the adjacent hills? Ct)lonel Ludlow. Yes; you would have to borrow from the neighbor- hood. Mr. NooNAN. I understand you have seen the embankments in India ? Colonel Ludlow. No; I have never been there. I would like to, but I have only seen the drawings and technical accounts of them. I have some books which I was able to have sent over from London last sum- mer while we were examining this thing. You will find some data on that subject in our report about these India weirs. They are very interesting structures and very peculiar. They have been built there for a long time; some of them are very ancient. ]\Ir. NooNAN. I supposed that was part of your mission. Colonel Ludlow. I should have been very glad to have gone there, but if 1 had gone that far 1 might not have had the jdeasure of getting back to meet the committee. They, however, only gave me certain designated i)oints which I was to go to see. If it had not been for the Nicaragua Canal matter I should perhaps have been in India, as I hoped to arrange it as military attache there. lically I think in a certain sense there is an explanation of a good many of these things, the confusion between preliminary survey and final survey and the necessity for further survey and all that, as indi- NICARAGUA CANAL. 15)7 cated by Mr. ^VFeiiocal in the middle of page 55, where he states, which really I did uot know aud had not in mind at all, because I did not look iuto the matter: The final survey should be completed within eighteen months from the date of the concession. That is all right; of course surveys had to be completed in the sense of being completed and prepared and sufliciently coherent to answer such purpose. The mistake, of course, was retaining it as a finality, using it otherwise. Mr. DooLTTTLE. Do you think in going over all these statements made by Senator Miller and IMr. Menocal that they have ever ])rofessed that no more surveys or investigations were necessary up to the time work should be completed f Are not these surveys going on contin- uously, always during the performance of any great work on railroads or anything else? Colonel Ludlow. Not usually; no. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Are not engineers constantly engaged on the work making surveys'? Colonel LuuLOW. After you build a railroad? Mr. DooLiTTLE. While you are constructing a railroad or any other great engineering work. Colonel Ludlow. Oh, certainly. But it does not follow that you do not have to make an investigation thoroughly at the start, or that you can go on and build and survey concurrently. Some portion of this canal you can start to-morrow; the information is ample. There is ])lenty of this work you can start in on to-morrow, if you desire so to do. The object of a survey is to determine what to do and what is best to do; that is all. Mr. DOOLITTLE. To such an extent as would require the expenditure of a million of dollars or so? Colonel Ludlow. That is very true. You can commence improving the San Juan River to-morrow. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And the rock cut? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; and dredging out on the lake. Mr. Joy. There was a question I wanted to ask last night. You say you found the level of the Lake Nicaragua varied several feet, and you still admit the canal is a feasible project. I want to ask you how, in your opinion, that level of the lake could be maintained, or the canal or river between the Ochoa Dam and the lake could be maintained, at a stable depth with the lake changing in its level to the extent you indi- cate it? Colonel Ludlow, l^ou have got to control it- Mr. Joy. By what means and in what direction? I ask for personal information. Colonel Ludlow. Quite right, and it is a nmtter to which the board gave days and nights of most careful consideration, using the data we liad. You will iind it treated at considerable length in our report. Mr. Joy. I read that, but it was not as comi)lete as possible, and I tliought perhaps at this time you Avould be able to elucidate it. Colonel Ludlow. If I had a diagram, I amid explain it better per- haps; but our discussion, if you please, in the report was based upon the idea that the lake was not to be allowed to fall below a certain fixed quantity. Mr. Joy. You say there is a difference of 3 feet, 5 feet, or more in the level of the lake. Could that difference be overcome to such an extent 198 NICARAGUA CANAL. as to maintaiu the river above tlie Ochoa Dams at 30 feet of water, or a given deptli of water"? Colonel Ludlow. We think it can be done. Mr. Joy. But what means would you adopt to do it? Colonel Ludlow. The first thing to do would be to raise the Ochoa Dam and everything that applied to it to an elevation sufficient to main- tain the lake surface at or above the datum you determine to have. In these circumstances, as the Board looks at the matter, during the dry season, wliile the lake is wasting and the rains are not falling, the water surface will be practically horizontal in the lake, and all the way down the river to the dam practically horizontal; and, in fact, the Board con- sidered it might even be necessary in the dry season to make the eleva- tion such as to hold the water to a higher level than the datum plane or summit level, in order to allow for a possible fall. Then, having done that, the difficulty comes in the rainy season when the lake begins to rise, and it is evident, unless you are going to drown out that basin and allow the whole variation of the lake to accumulate on the top of that summit level and fill up there, you will have to make some provision for letting it run o&. So that, whereas in the dry season the slope is horizontal, in the wet season you have to steepen that slope, in order to prevent the accumulation of water, and you have to discharge the surplus water out of the lake, and consequently have to have a steeper slope to d(» so. Therefore, it involves the necessity of having some arrangement, some adjustment at the dam which can be worked so as to shut and open, either sluices or movable weirs, so as to hold the water up by shutting the gates, and when the weirs are open to let the flood go out that would otherwise drown out the basin above. Mr. Joy. Is there any considerable portion of the country between this point — Ochoa Dam and the lake — which at high water with the Oclioa Dam built of sufficient elevation would be continually overflowed by the deepening of that riv^er and the backing up the water? Colonel Ludlow. In the valley it is; it w^ould be enormously over- flowed. We raise the water at Ochoa sixty odd feet. It is proposed by that dam to flood that whole valley, and the San Carlos Valley to boot, all the way back to the lake. You make a vast expanse of water there where the banks are low. Of course, where the banks are high you oidy flood what the water reaches. It is the same way up the San Carlos A^alley. There are twenty odd miles that will be flooded. You do not, however, want to drown any more laud in there than you can help. Now, I could multiidy the points that these people have objected to, but I will not impose on the committee. I am at the Chairman's service now. The Chairman. I wish you would give us some information of what you observed there of the remains of work done by the company in the general furtherance of this enterprise, either at Greytown or anywhere in regard to piers, excavations, etc. Colonel Ludlow. The work done by the company was concentrated at Greytown; that is, all the construction work was done there. The Chairman. What did you find remained of their work? Colonel Ludlow. We found the remains of dredging of the harbor in the shape of mounds of sand thrown up by the dredgers when they were excavating there. We found the remains of a pier at the beach. We found three-iourths of a mile of canal excavated from the Grey- town hi goon in the direction of the canal toward tlie hills. We found a railroad 11 or 12 miles running from Greytown to the foothills to the NICARAGUA CANAL. 199 site of the locks. We found several dredges, and we found a large number of buildings — extensive buildings — hospitals, headquarters, offices, and resident buildings belonging to the company and built by them. I think that covers about all of the construction and plant we noticed. There were locomotives, etc., and quite a variety of material. The Chairman. What did you find in regard to the channel in the harbor? Colonel Ludlow. There is no channel. The channel that was made by the company when they were working there is completely filled up. It could only be kept open by dredging. The Chahiman. Will that be the case for all time'? Will it be pos- sible to secure by any engineering device a channel that would preserve itself? Colonel Ludlow. No, I regard that as out of the question. That is hardly the case anywhere, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. What is your idea, or did you make any estimates of the annual dredging that would be necessary to x)reserve a channel commensurate with the uses of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. No, sir; we really did not go into that inquiry at all. The Chairman. Li your judgment, will that be a matter of consid- erable cost ? Colonel Ludlow. There will be, I think, a considerable cost for main- tenance there. The Chairman. To what distance seaward will they have to use the dredges in order to preserve a 28-foot or 30-foot channel? Colonel Ludlow. They would have to go at least that far. The Chairman. How far? Colonel Ludlow. To the 28 and 30 foot depth. I do not know liow far that would be. The Chairman. But how far from the shore? Colonel Ludlow. That would depend on the rapidity with which the shore moved out. It was found on the east side of the pier built by the comi)any that the beach followed out — that the sand accunuilated against it on the east side followed very rapidly toward the end of the pier until when we were there the shore line was out fully to the end of the pier and the beach had swept on by and made a dry bar on the other side, the entrance being at some little distance from the pier. The Chairman. What machinery did you find there? Colonel Ludlow. We found three or four dredges which were the most prominent objects. There were machine shops and a lot of boats, scows, and so on, on the bank; quite an accumulation of material of various kinds — three or four locomotives and sheds. The pier was there. The Chairman. What was its condition? Colonel Ludlow. Well, its condition was — the woodwork was about gone, and the piles had been badly eaten by the teredo and the timber was much decayed; but some was in pretty fair condition, as there was concrete inside The Chairman. Would any of it be of value now in completing the canal, or would it have to be replaced? Colonel Ludlow. It would, provided the entrance to the harbor was retained at the place proposed by the company. The Chairman. Suppose that entrance was retained, what would you estimate the present value of that work? Colonel Ludlow. Well, in a case like that, of course it has no com- mercial value 200 NICARAGUA CANAL. Tlie Chairman. But as part of the completed construction'? Colonel Ludlow. It lias no commercial value in such a case, and the value ot a work like this is its usefulness. In one way I should say the value of tliat work is exactly the price it would cost to put something in there to do the same work. The Chairman. That is what I meant to be understood"? Colonel Ludlow. That is what I think. I think the jn-esent value of that work is about what it would cost to substitute something if it were not there. The Chairman. The line of this questioning and the jmrpose of it is this: 1 want to find out what there is of value there now — its present value as a i)art of this great enterprise? Colonel Ludlow. The value of the jetty depends entirely upon whether you propose to keep the entrance there or not. The Chairman. Suppose you did? Colonel Ludlow. Then the jetty is worth what it would cost to imt something there to take the place of it. The Chairman. What would that cost! Colonel Ludlow. There is 900 feet of it, I think. The Chairman. Just approximate it. Colonel Ludlow. We estimate to put in a jetty — I generally like to speak by the book, if I can find it — we estimated to put in a temporary pile jetty for temporary purposes of securing an entrance. Tiiat is esti- mated at about, I think, $70 a foot. The board, however, does not believe we ought to endeavor to make an entrance there. Mr. DooLiTTLE. This is only a temporary pier, and does not include the rock work, which is of course the most important of all things in connection with the jetty. Colonel Ludlow. That does not include final rock work, but it has rock in it. I\rr. Joy. That would be $63,000. The Chairman. What are these dredges worth? Colonel Ludlow. I do not know. I do not think they are worth anything. Tlie woodwork is worth nothing; what the machinery is worth, wliat condition it is in I do not know, but it is badly rusted and worn out, and is of an ancient tyj)e anyway. I do not think it would pay to try to use those dredges except for temporary purposes. The Chairman. What do you estimate the present value of the rail- road and its rolling stock? Colonel Ludlow. Well, the rolling stock I should not charge up as worth anything. I do not know what is the condition of the loco- motives. 'I'hey were under the sheds, but the climnte is very trying on ironwork and they are rusted up. I would lump the whole business, rolling stock and dredges, and let somebody take it for scrap. The roadbed is there and has a definite value and is worth what it cost, ])ractically. The Chairman. How much would it cost to make the excavation that has been made in the canal proper? Colonel Ludlow. To make that same excavation? I do not remem- ber the cube of it which was taken out. Mr. J<:ndicott. It cost them $80,000 at 11 cents a yard. Colonel Ludlow. That is its value provided you retain the entrance where it is. The Chairman. But if you change the harbor, that would be lost? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes; you lose any use of the pier. The Chairman. What is the value of the buildings? NICARAGUA CANAL. 201 Colonol Ludlow. I do not know, sir. We found tlie bnildings in very fair condition ; they are in good condition indeed considering the time they have been there and the laclv of care they had. The Chairman. Can yon give the valne approximately? Colonel Ludlow. I do not know really what the buildings cost. I understand, however, they cost a great deal, because they came from Chicago and had to be shipped and put up again, and so on. Of course there is nothing in the country to do anything with, and I presume the cost was something frightful. The Chairman. What would be a fair estimate of the cost of accu- mulating the engineering data that you regard is of value"? Colonel Ludlow. Well, we estimated the cost of getting what was imperatively needed at $350,000. The Chairman. What I want to find out is, what would be a fair estimate of the cost of that which they had accumulated, that is, ot present value I Colonel Ludlow. Well, you see, all the information they have accu- mulated is of value. I do not know what their expenses were; perhaps $250,000 or $300,000, but I do not know; but I should say it was that. They were there a good deal and had a good many parties out. Atone time they had as many as eight small parties, I think, out. I think those surveys ought to be worth what it cost to get them. The Chairman. What portion of the canal has been cleared of tim- ber? Colonel Ludlow. Of the wood? Why, a large part of it has been. I do not think it has been cleared from Greytown to the foothills on the canal route. Mr. Endicott. Not in there by Lock No. 1. Colonel Ludlow. I do not think that part has been cleared. There is no use clearing in there, as it is swamp. A picket has been cut out quite wide and comparatively clear through the east divide cut, and it is comi^aratively cleared through the San Francisco district, not neces- sarily over the canal line, because much of that runs in the bottoms which will be drowned out according to the project. There is a picket cut out on the crest line, so we could follow it. Well, that is all about as far as Ochoa. Over on the San Carlos ridge there is a i»icket there partly cut out. On the west side the clearing there has been quite extensive, quite broad, several hundred feet or more, and from the lake seaward until you get to the divide ' Mr. Endicott. There is practically no timber in there. Colonel Ludlow. There is no standing timber in that region. For heavy tropical timber it is too dry in the summer. The Chairman, Is that i^ortion reaching from Greytown to the hills submerged? Colonel Ludlow. It is swamp and of tropical growth. The Chairman. Did you traverse that I Colonel Ludlow. We could not. We went over the railroad three times. You can not go through that swamp except by a canoe or something of the kind, and there is no object in going over it. It is swamp, and naturally you go up by railroad and see what the construc- tion is. There is no use of wading through a lake or swamp, as you can look at it for five minutes and know as much as if you looked at it for five years. The Chairman. All of that work will be submerged excavation? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; that will be wet excavation, dredging work. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Will not that drain that swamp when it is con- structed? 202 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. Oli, yes; it will assist materially in doing it. Of course you can not get it dry with the rainfall, but it will hel}) materially. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The railroad is built through the same character of land, is it not"? Colonel Ludlow. No; it gets a little difficult as you get farther along — the part down here is sand and a little clay, and as you go far- ther along you lose the sand. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I mean the railroad as built there is in the swamp? Colonel Ludlow. So far as anybody knows, it is just the same — a mixture of sand, mud, and clay. Mr. NooNAN. I understood Mr. Menocal to say when you were there yon designated another point of entrance to the harbor? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir. Mr. Noon AN. Why were you impelled to do that? Colonel Ludlow. We treated at some length the reasons for that in our report. We believed there was certainly danger of starting in on a h()])C']ess fight to make an entrance there, because it is too near the west beach. The sand accumulates there from both directions. Mr. Noon AN. Well, the tilling you speak of; will you avoid that by having the new place? Colonel Ludlow. You will not avoid all the filling, but you will have it in a reduced quantity. You get better conditions. Further- more, going a little farther down and running at right angles to the beach you get 8 fathoms of water, which on this route is reached at 2,000 feet from shore, and we believe at less trouble of maintenance. That is the real reason of changing the position. Mr, DooLiTTLE. Which is the direction of the drift given by the current ? Colonel Ludlow. There is no current. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Well, I mean by the sea? Colonel Ludlow. The action of the wind on the beach? Mr. DooLiTTLE. I mean the current there. Colonel Ludlow. It has no current. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Is not there a current setting in from the northwest down there? Do not the winds prevail from that direction? Colonel Ludlow. The winds blow from about east to northeast. Mr. DOOLITTLE. The sand then drifts about that point? Colonel Ludlow. We have not a maj) here on which I could show you. This large affair is not a map, but a diagram intended to illus- trate the general features of the project; but perhaps I can do some- thing with it. Near that projecting point of laud called Harbor Head there is a nearly o^ien sea, and when the waves come in at about an angle of 45 degrees on the beach it runs a little southwesterly to a l)oint toward the town. Then the beach takes a turn and goes up this way [illustrating] and curves up well from there and makes a bay like this, and there is another cape called Monkey Point, which is about due north of Greytown, making a bay. We found reasons to believe and are entirely satisfied that the sand was moving in both directions into the head of that funnel, which is due largely to the wave action. The sea is perpetually coming in there, and, under the action of the trade winds, striking the shore at an angle of 45 degrees, mounting u])on the bea(;h and receding, and coming again and again, makes an action upon the beach which carries this light sand in here | illustrating]. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How far do you go from the proposed mouth of the canal until you reach, say, 8 fathoms of water? Colonel Ludlow. The present mouth? I will have to find that in our report. NICARAGUA CANAL. 203 Mr. DooLiTTLE. I would just ask you first if you ran lines out and made soundings in order to ascertain? Colonel Ludlow. Ob, yes; we made a beautiful map of the wliole thing. That is to say, the oiiicers of the Montgomery did the hydro- graphic or offshore part, while we did the shore part, and so we have a handsome map of it. We say, on page 37 of our report : But it seems safe to conclnde that the endeavor to construct a harbor entrance for the canal immediately adjacent to the head of the bight, where the maximnm filling action from both directions must take place, will involve engaging at once in a per- petual contest with forces of great power and persistence at the point of a])j)lication of their resultant eflbrts. On the prolongation of the comany's piers the 6-futhom curve is over 1,500 feet distant from the shore, the 7-fathom curve 4,000 feet, and the 8-fatliom curve about 8,000 feet. Mr. DooLiTTLE. About 8,000 feet seaward? Colonel Ludlow. On the line of the pier. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That is no longer than the pier at the mouth of the Columbia Eiver? Colonel Ludlow. It is no extravagant length, but if you can have it less length Mr. DOOLITTLE. But a pier built out there would have the same effect as it had at the mouth of the Columbia? Colonel Ludlow. It might — no. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Why would it not have? Tliere is no current out there; there is no flow of water there. It is on the broad Pacific, and the jetty is built to resist the encroachment of the sand washed down and drifted by the sea. Colonel Ludlow. And also incidentally to control and guide the current of the Columbia River. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That goes to sea; stretches clear to the northward 30 miles. Colonel Ludlow. Do you remember before the Columbia jetty was built? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir; I have been there many a time when there was not 16 feet of water there. Colonel Ludlow. There were three channels. Kow there is but one, and the purpose of that jetty was to hold the river just where it is. Mr. DOOLITTLE. The purpose of the jetty, as I understand the engi- neers engaged in the work and who were with me when I went out on the end of the jetty, was to resist the encroachment of the sea washing from the southward and the force of winds and currents. Colonel Ludlow. And- did it very successfully. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And they have 32 feet of water. Colonel Ludlow. They have the advantage there of a tremendous river to work with, with an enormous flood and of great volume. If they had not had that they would have had to fight its tremendous force Mr. DOOLITTLE. But the effect of that pier would be to arrest the sand drifts? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; arrest the sand drifting from the west and guide the river, so that instead of spreading out and wandering about it is concentrated. Mr. DooLiTTLE. At Greytown? Colonel Ludlow. Ko; at the mouth of the Columbia. Mr. DooLiTTLE. But I am speaking about building piers at Grey- town, and I say they arrest the washing of the sand when they are built out seaward far enough. Colonel Ludlow. Assuredly. 204 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And the channel could be made permanent? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; it can be. Mr. NooNAN. Would you have any objection to stating in writing to supplement what you have stated in regard to that opening? Colonel Ludlow. How is that? Mr. NooNAN. In regard to this entrance to the harbor here? Colonel Ludlow. Well, in connection with that I will try to do it from the estimates; I have no other means of doing it. ■ Mr. NooNAN. J do not believe you can do it in a cursory way, and that is why I asked you to put it supplementary in writing. Colonel Ludlow. It would be very difficult. We estimate the total cost of the Greytown Harbor, making a provisional estimate of $4,4S(),- 000, warehouse, machine shops, wharves, railroad trestles, stone — you do not want that estinuite at all? Mr. NooNAN. Oh, no; simply an estimate of the feasibility of mak- ing tliat channel there adequate for the purposes indicated where you pro])ose to put it. Colonel Ludlow. Very good ; that involves the construction of a tem- porary pile pier in order to secure an entrance, and then piers of loose rock, wliich is in addition to the rock in the temporary piers, piers at entrance to canal, dredging, stone intching, channel banks, etc., nearly $4,000,000 all told, including the dredging of the harbor. The whole interior harbor dredging is included in that. The items are not sepa- rated here in the estimate for the dredging. The harbor work proper, as we made a preliminary estimate, would be about $900,000; say, in round numbers a million of dollars. Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet at 2 r). m. on Thursday, April 30, 189G. Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, House of Representatives, May i, 1S9C>. The committee met at 10.30 a. m., Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair. STATEMENT OF COL. WILLIAM LUBLOW— Continued. The Chairman. Colonel Ludlow will proceed with his statement. Colonel Ludlow. Mr. Doolittle stated that he would take up the question of estimates, etc., to day and ask some questions in that con- nection. Of course, this is a difficult and complicated matter. You can understand that it is especially diflRcult to form an accurate esti- mate upon a matter concerning which we have not complete data. Mr. Noble, of our board, Avas very much engaged in imi^ortant work in New York, l)ut he was good enough to come over yesterday and Ave three — INIr. Endicott, Mr. Noble, and myself — went over the data and figures that we have. Mr. Noble, although at very great inconvenience, arranged to remain over to-day. Before you proceed with the ques- tions tliat you desire to ask, inasnuich as 1 was responsible for the introduction of Mr. Davis's name in my testimony the other day, and some questions Avere asked which might indicate there was something against him, I would be ghid, with tlie permission of the committee, to read two short communications touching this matter. I have taken a little trouble to ascertain what the facts wore in that regard. With NICARAGUA CANAL. 205 your iierniission I will therefore read these papers, and leave them as a part of the record. The first is from the Eiigineerlug ]News of August 22,1891, as follows: Mr. Frank P. Davia, now the chief assistant of Enj^iueer Menocal, of the Nicaragua Canal Construction Company, stationed at Greytown, Nicaragua, has been the recipi- ent of so unusual a mark of recognition for services rendered as an engineer that we give the resolution of the com])any in full, and congratulate Mr. Davis on Lis good fortune and the officers of tlie Canadian Pacific Railway on their frank admission of indebtedness to their engineer for good work done eight years ago. The resolution reads as follows : "At a meeting of the board of directors of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, held at the principal offices of the company in Montreal, on Monday, the 8th day of June, 18!ll, the president referred to the especially valuable services of Mr. Frank P. Davis, who as engineer on the Rocky Mountain section of the line, under Maj. A. B. Rogers, prevented a most serious mistake in the location of the railway in the Lower Kicking Horse Canyon, and saved the comjiany a large amount of monej' in its origi- nal construction, as well as in its subsequent operation, and stated that when the facts came to the knowledge of the executive officers they felt that Mr. Davis's serv- ices should be fittingly recognized, and that Mr. Davis had left the country and his place of residence was not known until within a few weeks. "The president reconunended that a check for a suitable amount be sent to Mr. Davis, with a resolution expressing the appreciation of the board ; whereupon it was "Eesolved, That the reconnaendation of the president be concurred in, and that he be authorized to forward to Mr. Frank P. Davis a check for $1,000, together with a coi>y of this resolution, as an acknowledgment of the valuable services rendered by him to this company. "Attest: "C. Wainwright, Secretary." The second paper is from the office of the Engineer Commissioner of the District, and is signed by thecomintting engineer and superintend- ent of sewers of the same service. This came to me with the knowledge and approval of the Engineer Commissioner, Major Powell. It is as follows : Office of tue Engineeu Commissioner, District of Columbia, Washington, April 30, 1896. Dear Sir: In answer to jour inquiry concerning the record of Mr. Frank P. Davis, while connected with the engineer department of the District government, I make the following statement : He was appointed assistant engineer November 1, 1884. On December 1, 1887, he was granted leave of absence, without pay, and went to Nicaragua on some prelimi- nary surveys. August 1, 1888, he resumed his position as assistant engineer, and retained it until May 31, 1889, when, having been engaged on the Nicaraguan Canal Construction, his connection with this department was severed. During the time he was engaged here he proved himself a capable and reliable engineer. His work was under my supervision, and I am therefore able to speak with confidence as to its character. It was in all resjjects accexitable, and I regard him as a thoroughly conscientious and honest man, whose statements on any subject with which he is familiar I would accept as truth. Very respectfully, Geo. H. Bailey, Computing Engineer, Engineer Department^, District of Columbia, I indorse the above statement. D. E. McCoMB, Superintendent Sewers. Col. William Ludlow, Corps of Engineers, U. S. A. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Did you have those paj^ers with you when you appeared before the committee the last time? Colonel Ludlow. I had not. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Where did this paper come from, and how came you in possession of this paper from the Canadian Pacific Kailway Company if it was written in 1891 ? 206 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. From the same source from whicli I obtained the other ]);iper. It is a part of the record in the District othce. It came to me from Mr. Bailey with a note from Major Powell, Engineer Com- missioner. IMr. DooLiTTE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I desire here to say tliat I wish to i)roceed and ask Colonel Luoolittle that estimates was the matter about which questions would be asked. There are one or two points I would like to cover, because the effect is rather important. One in particular is this question of summit level. This is a question which has given the board great concern. We assumed all the way through that there was a fixed summit level to be maintained, aiul Ave must admit to have been very much surprised by the statement of IMr. Menocal that it was not expected to maintain a fixed summit level, but that such level was expected to vary with the rise and fall of the lake, above or below the 110 feet, according to the oscillations of the lake. That we regarded as a very extraordinary proposition, and we were quite disconcerted to find that the view we had held on this point was in error. I want to read, merely in justification of our view, some tes- timony given by Mr. Menocal, embodied in Senator Sherman's report oi December 2, 1892. It contains a large amount of very interesting infor- mation. On page 174 I find the following testimony : Q. How much is the rise and fall of Lake Nicaragua, iu its present natural coudi- tiou, from extreme high water to extreme low water f Mr. Menocal answers : From 2} to 5 feet. We propose to retain the level of the lake at 110 feet. That was the summit level. The answer is distinctly made that it is pro])osed to retain the level of the lake at 110. That is, of course, what we have always understood. There are some more (juestions as to what the variations might be: Q. How much will that swell it above its lowest natural condition? — A. Six and one-half feet. Q. t^o that that will carry it up to a height of 2 or 3 feet above its ordinary high water? — A. Yes; but 110 feet is not above the highest water mark by any means. NICARAGUA CANAL. 207 Then he was asked whether the lake woukl rise enough to kill trees or overflow shores that are now never covered. His answer was — No, sir; I would uot say never, for sometimes the water reaches an elevation above 112 lect. Of course, if the summit level is to be maintained at 110 feet and the lake shall not fall below that, whatever rise takes place in the lake will be above that 110-foot level. We made an eflbrt to ascertain what that might be, but we could not do it. We tried to figure out whether the lake could be controlled, so as not to have a rise above 3 feet, but we approximately calculated that that would involve a discharge at times very much larger than at any time has been attributed to the San Juan from the lake. 1 wanted to read this, because it is a part of the record and it is infor- mation upon which we acted. Now, there is another point, Mr. Chairman, if you please. Mr. Menocal, in his Chicago paper, prepared for the World's Colum- bian Water Commerce Congress, 1893, addressed specifically to the engineer world, at the bottom of page 33, makes the following state- ment with reference to the construction of locks. He says, very properly : The matter of safety is of first consideration, bnt with the exercise of proper care and engineering skill the })lans pro])Osed can be successfully carried out. In the I)ro))OS('il plan for a lock canal at Panama, lifts of 36 fert, with a possible maximum of 46 feit at high water, were adopted by the Commission; but we can not recall any ship-canal lock in actual operation with lifts approaching these figures. Yet, iu working out the problem, the mechanical details, although necessarily of large pro- portions, have not so far developed any insurmountable difftculties, either in con- struction or manipulation afterwards. The body of the locks is to be of concrete, with cut stones iu the miter sills, the hollow quoins and such angles as need protec- tion from shocks. That is a specific and clear statement, and naturally we expected to find that verified in the data. When we came to investigate we were disappointed in not finding it verified. We could not find that there was any cut stone in the lock construction at all — nothing but concrete; not any other material. That, of course, is one of the gravest objec- tions we have to the company's plan. Furthermore, when we asked for the lock drawings at the company's ofiQce we found that practically they had none. The construction of these locks is very important and diffi- cult, and they have unexampled dimensions in the way of lift. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What is the lift, taking them up in their order? Colonel Ludlow. As proposed by the company"? Mr. DooLiTTLE. Yes, sir; in apin'oaching the divide from Grey- town. Colonel Ludlow. The lift is varied a little. It was, if I remember, 30, 31, and 45 feet. The extreme lift, as proposed in the report of 1890, was 45 feet for Lock No. 3. A lock of half that lift has yet to be built. ^^'hat I want to submit is the fact that the only data which the com pany was prepared to furnish us, upon which their computations and calculations for these locks were based, is the paper of which this is a copy [exhibiting paper]. By examining it you will see they are simply little cross sections, roughly made, and from these the quantities of concrete supposed to be contained in the lock are computed, and the iTuit i)rice attached to it, and the total figured out. There were no other plans or data on the subject so far as we could ascertain. I might say that there was an unfinished drawing in the office of the company, but it was laid aside and we were assured that it was not 208 NICARAGUA CANAL. u&ed in the preparation of the estimates. The veritication of the state- ment that tlie company had no other data, or phms upon which to base their estimates is tlie fact that the total estimates for locks 1, 2, and 3, in the re[)ort of 1890, are precisely the same as the figures here given ou this sheet. Mr. BooLiTTLE. The total of the locks is the same? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; precisely as here stated. Now, Avith regard to the construction of the Ochoa I>aui; this was another point the board had the utmost difticulty in endeavoring to get to the merits of. I assure you one of the greatest diflicultics we had was to ascertain what the real facts Avere and reconcile the differ- ent statements made at different times with what we found the com- pany's own records showed. This is a blue print of the only drawing which gave us any idea as to the condition of things at the Ochoa J)am. It is admitted that the drawing is obsolete, in the sense that tlie proposed niethud of construc- tion here was abandoned. The company, at that time, was proposing a trestlework across the river from which the stone should be dumped. Later tliis plan was advantageously replaced by the proposition of suspended cables across the river, which, of course, was vastly better. That proposition was never worked out, and the only thing we had to look at was the cross section of the dam, and the only thing we had to give us some kind of an idea as to how they were to build it was the drawing of which this is the blue print. One of the peculiar features of this blue print is that underlying the site of the dam, and extending entirely across the river and up the banks, is shown a ledge of solid rock, and the company's declaration in reference to that — the statement of Mr. Meuocal is on record — that underlying the site the materials are " gravel, clay, and rock," in the order named. Now, I can only assure you that borings of the company themselves show that this profile is the only authority for such a statement Mr. DooLiTTLB. What is the date of that profile? Colonel Ludlow. This antedates the borings, made before the bor- ings Averemade, when there Avas no specific information on the subject. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Which profile you say is now obsolete? Colonel Ludlow. Yes. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The overhead cable Avas developed, was it not, after the time you have spoken of, Avheu a trestle was to be built across the river ? Colonel Ludlow. I don't remember about the time of the develop- ment of that overhead cable. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That is a comparatively recent system, isn't it? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; 1 think it has been developed within a few years. I forget how far back the Lidgerwoods have Avorked with their cables. Mr. Noble. Eight or ten years. Colonel Ludlow. It is an excellent method. We are not criticising that method in the least. If it is done, that will be the Avay it Avill be done. It Avas this endeaA^or to reconcile discrepant data that really gave us more trouble last summer, more anxiety, than almost any other circumstance in connection with this project. It invested everything with the air of uncertainty — too much versatility about it. We Avould have preferred to have some concrete statement AA'hich would be con- sistent right through Avith the comi)auy's other data. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do you consider it inconsistent to have obsolete plans ou hand Avhere a Avork of this kind has been carried on? NICARAGUA CANAL. . 209 Colonel Ludlow. Kot the least in the world. Still, I say we have never been able to understand the indication of that led«>e of rock. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You say that it is obsolete and does not appear in the present plans for the construction of the dam, does it? Colonel Ludlow. The statement exists in print yet. Mr. DoOLiTTLE. I suppose the entire history of the human race exists. The Chairman. The im])ortauce of that is the fact that it is the assertion of a rock foundation. Colonel Ludlow. It is the declaration to the eye of a rock founda- tion which does not exist, and for which at the time it was made there was no authority at all. Subsequent to the making of that profile borings were made, which, so far as they were made, disproved it entirely. But that didn't prevent the statement being made in the ofhcial paper of 1893, that clay, gravel, and rock were found there in the order named. That statement was distinctly made as late as 1893. Those "inadvertencies'' therefore become serious. Mr. DooLiTTLE. From the great mass of data gathered from time to time, and which the company had at their office in New York, it would not be strange, would it, that data that had been demonstrated to be irregularly constituted or not absolutely reliable should creep in and be ])ublislied with the mass of publication ? Colonel Ludlow. It seems to have been done. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Don't you think this would be the natural and probable thing? Colonel Ludlow. From one point of view. But, understand, the publications I am noting are not what might be called popular and commercial publications, but specitic and technical statements of the chief engineer of the company. Mr. DooLiTTLE. For instance, I know of my own knowledge that in the newspapers statements are made based on and relating to old data and plans, published as carrying out the present ideas of the company, being totally at variance with the company's plans at this time. Colonel Ludlow. Yes, no doubt. I quote from page 27 of Mr. Men- ocal's formal paper prepared for the Columbian Water Commerce Con- gress. This is under the head of excavation, etc. : At the site of the Ochoa Daui gravel, clay, and rock, iu the order named, are shown by the borings. And the date of this paper is 1893. I assure you, gentlemen, that this task of mine is not an agreeable one. But there was no recourse but to do what \vc had to do and work it out to the finish. I do not know that there is anything else at this moment. There is so much of it — all this testimony we have here bristles with points that could be picked up, more or less, and absurd- ities shown. This question of hydraulic data, which is one of the most serious points of criticism that the Board has had to find Avith the com- pany's project, is one which I should perhaps refer to briefly. In the company's records there is an apparent absolute lack of hydraulic data of rainfalls, of the rise and fall of streams, of the volume of streams, showing high-water marks, etc. These forces are perhaps more formidable here than at any other point on the face of the earth, without any exception, and the information in regard to it is almost entirely lacking, when it could have been had just- as well as not if the importance of it — its absolute vital necessity from an engineering standpoint — had been understood. i\Ir. IMciiocal, in his paper, which forms a portion of his testimony, admits the deficiency in N c 14 210 NICARAGUA CANAL. the hydraulic data, but seriously contends that, after all, the gatherings of it would be of no practical value, for the reason that it takes prolonged periods of years to get maxima and minima results; that even after twenty years of investigation the phenomena of the twenty-first year would likely upset all averages; for which reason, apparently, it has been concluded not to get any information at all — because at the twenty-first or thirty- first or forty-first year all your labor would have been done in vain, on account of some extraordinary condition of things. We contend, you know, that this is an absolutely unsound view — that it is not engi- neering. Fnrtliermore, Mr. Menocal condemns the Nicaragua Canal board for insisting upon the necessity for certain surveys. We have said why we wanted them. We want the hydraulic data, we want a survey of the San Juan Eiver, and we want a lot of things which we could not get from the company, and upon which we could get no information. We wanted the regimen of the lake, and wanted to investigate the discharge of the river, and so on, a computation of the rainfalls, particularly in the San Francisco Basin, and in all that proposed construction where the work is of great magnitude and where the tremendous rainfall is a matter of serious consideration. We wanted all that. Mr. Menocal declared at one point in his testimony that all this would be a mere Avaste of time. At other points in his testimony it appears that at the time operations were suspended down there the company had seriously proposed an entire, clear, thorough survey of the San Juan lliver from Ochoa to the lake, which they had kept in view, and which they had only deferred in view of what was more important; and the termination of their labors down there found the work undone. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The substance of Mr. Menocal's statement in regard to the rise and fall of the lakes was this, was it not, that during the construction of tliis canal all of these matters could be ascertained, as well as the details, in a great work of this character; that whatever was necessary to be done might then be i)eribrmed in the carrying on of the work, and making the surveys after the matter was taken up in earnest ■? Colonel Ludlow. You would not even build a stable that way ; you would not build a house that way. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Isn't that the substance of Mr. Menocal's state- ment? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir, I think so; I quite agree with you, and it is the most extraordinary substance I know of in connection with engi- neering matters — that the engineering work is to be done after the construction has been commenced. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You stated the other day that after the work had been commenced many matters could be ascertained and details arranged, and all that sort of thing. Colonel Ludlow. Yes, but look at this, Mr. Doolittle. See how abso- lutely vital this is — for the regulation of this summit level, and the deter- mination of what that should be, you must have these hydraulic data. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Again, right there. The maintenance of this sum- mit level is insured by the building of the dam at Ochoa, Colonel Ludlow. The chief engineer says not. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Isn't that true? Colonel Ludlow. He says not. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I ask you. Colonel Ludlow. No; I say not, too. lagree with him on that point. Mr. DOOLITTLE. If a dam were built sufficiently high at Ochoa it would keep the lake up to 110 feet? NICARAGUA CANAL. 211 Colonel LrjDLOW. You can do it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, tlien, if the flow of water is so great as to increase that height of the level somewhat, that excess of water then is carried off by the weirs, is it not? Isn't that the plan? Colonel Ludlow. I suppose so. Mr. DooLiTTLE. As rapidly as it descends? Colonel Ludlow. No, you can not do it as rapidly, because there must be a slope in the river in order to discharge the lake. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Certainly, and the rise in the lake would make a fall. Colonel Ludlow. The lake piles uj) and makes its fall. To what height is that lake going? Mr. DOOLITTLE. yu])pose it is 110 and then goes to 117. Colonel Ludlow. Seven feet higher? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir, or 112 or 113. Then it is discharged and the lake falls back to 110. Colonel Ludlow. On those subjects our information is almost entirely lacking. The only authentic information we have on this subject is what we obtained ourselves. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I have not been there and I am not an engineer, but that would be the result, it seems to me. Colonel Ludlow. The range of that lake always seems to have been assumed by the company. It is variously stated at 3, 5, and 7 feet; and recently, since the publication of our report, it has been put up to 10 feet, for the first time, in the canal literature. We found evidence, and had reason to believe, that the lake varies from maximum to mini- mum through a range of 14 feet — certainly 12 feet. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That was taking into consideration the evaporation and all that ? Colonel Ludlow. No; watermarks. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I say it necessarily embraced that. Colonel Ludlow. It included all the physics, certainly. We asked the question . If we fix the summit level at 110 feet, how much is the lake going to rise above that? If you can not regulate it within limits you are going to submerge an enormous amount of valuable hind. The engineer has to look into those things. The city of Granada would be invaded, Mr. DOOLITTLE. Contingencies of that kind are embraced fully in the concessions, are they not? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, no; there is no concession permitting the drowning out of private property v/ithout compensation. If there were, it could not be done. Furthermore, if the committee will bear with me a moment, you do not understand how we worked over that problem. It is absolutely vital. The dam is supposed to effect the regulation. We met a statement from the chief engineer that the high lake level is to be regulated by the Ochoa Dam. You can not do that. It is a fixed dam; there will l3e no gates on it. Furthermore, we have a letter from the chief engineer, which we received last summer, in which, in answer to a question on that i)oint, he replies that the lake level is to be regulated by discharging 60 per cent of the surplus drain- age of the lakes westward through the canal into the Pacific. At one place it is to be regulated by the Ochoa Dam. How, I don't know, because there is no provision there for anything movable, and tlie lake and river are oscillating up and down. You can not regulate anything by a fixed quantity. Then comes the extraordinary statement that no less than 60 per cent of the total waste or surplus drainage is to bo carried off to the westward through the Pacific caual. Those state 212 NICARAGUA CANAL. ments can not be reconciled^ they are incoherent; it is not engineer- ing. Mr. Joy. If the lake rises at its highest point lliO feet 10 feet above the summit level, would it not submerge just as much land as if the dam raises it 110 feet"? Colonel Ludlow. The lake never goes there now. The highest we have noted was but 111 or 112 feet. Mr. Joy. You say there was a range of 14 feet? Colonel Ludlow. Between the minimum and maximum stage, the maximum being represented by 112 feet above sea level at present in the natural conditions as we found them there. Now, you put your dam up so it shall not fall below 110 feet. You only have a range of 2 feet to the present maximum stage, but the water between its highest and lowest range has still to be accounted for, and if you refuse to let the lake fall below 110 feet, you have to allow for the entire maximum range above that during rainy seasons. JNIr. DooLiTLLE. And for the disposal of that water? Colonel Ludlow. You have to get rid of it some way or it will drown out the valle3\ That is a series of ({uestions the company had not investigated. We could not get any information on the subject from the com])any. When we went around the lake and through the river we got watermarks ourselves. Mr. BooLiTTLE. Bo not the weirs prove that those things were taken into consideration? Colonel Ludlow. ^Ko; the weirs simply provide for a flow of water. They do not provide for regulating the lake level at all. You can not do that with fixed weirs at all. All you can be sure of with a weir is to hold water Bip to a certain point. We believe the weirs as proposed by the company will be totally inadequate during the descending stage of the lake — the dry season. They can not hold the water, we believe, up to 110 feet. The discharge over tho Ochoa Dam is at lOG, 105 is the sill of the weir at Ochoa, and the San Carlos weirs are a foot and a half lower than that, so that as the lake fell and the supply drained o& it, it is unquestionable that the slope would become nearly horizontal and the river would drain itself down, not to lOG or 108, but to 103 J, which is the reference of the weir sills on the San Carlos. That is oiie of the lowest points, and if you don't keep water running in all the time there it will run down, naturally. It is those things we want light upon and which are indispensable to any real solid engineer- ing project. -No engineer would permit you to state that these data, that this information can be omitted, or that it would be safe to under- take the construction of enormous works until you have those data. How are you going to tell about the depth at which that great cut through the east divide shall be projected? A dihereuce of a foot or two with an enormous chasm in a mountain range is a serious consid- eration, if you will figure it out. A difference of a foot ! Of what number of feet I We Avant to know those things. We want to know the range and volume of San Juan Eiver and the bed of it, and what material, and of what nature and kind and quantity it is, to be removed from there to make a channel. We want to know about the means of transit and transportation lines, which the company has not ascertained. They worked like beavers there and accomplished a great deal; but in spite of their hard work there is an uncertainty of 1 foot of level between Ochoa and Greytown, which at the conclusion of its Avork the company had sought to discover by a thorough-going double check line of levels NICARAGUA CANAL. 213 from Greytown to tlie divide and tbeiice to Oclioa. That showed what they thought about it, although we have no reference to that, you under- stand, in the printed information. I do not know, gentlemen, that it is expedient to go on further with these general points. We have believed it in the interest of American engineers, if you choose, that this i)rqiect should be put in such shape and be treated in such a rational sense that it would be accepted by the engineering world outside of us. You can not do these things under a bushel. This is a project that excites the interest of the whole engineer- ing world. It is the most interesting engineering work ever started, and the difficulties of the work are not exceeded by any other such work. Mr. Bennett. Still, there are no difiQculties so serious in this work that they can not be overcome? Colonel Ludlow. You will never get an engineer to admit that there are difficulties which can not be overcome; that any engineering pro- ject not inconsistent with the laws of nature is impossible if you have money and time enough to accomplish it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The difficulties here are not insurmountable, accord- ing to your own judgment as a man"? Colonel Ludlow. JSTo, sir. The board has expressed the opinion that it is convinced of the fact that the construction of a canal across the isthmus is feasible. We have said so, and we believe it; but not, if you please, with this kind of engineering, because you can start to build a canal there, if you choose, gentlemen, and you can spend, as I said, a thousand million dollars, and not get through. The French engineers tried that. They spent $500,000,000 — that amount, at least, has disappeared — and they have nearly wrecked the French nation on account of it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You can do that with nearly any undertaking. Mr. Bennett. How much it cost is absolutely unsettled. Colonel Ludlow. We believe, after the most faithful consideration we can give this subject, the cost ci" work and labor, and what it will be necessary to do, etc., the cost of construction, actual construction, nothing else, will be under $135,000,000. I expressed the opinion the other day, in response to an inquiry, that I regretted we had not made the estimate $150,000,000, because I thought that sum would be safer. It is a matter of judgment. We are perfectly convinced that the canal can be built. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Within the limits you name in your report? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; we believe it can be done, and so state. But we do not believe at the present time there is sufficient information to warrant the formulation of the engineering j^roject, Avith the details of construction, giving it out to the world and advertising for construc- tion, which is the only way it can be built. It is to be advertised to the world and to be bid for by the contractors of the world. It will have to be divided up into sections for construction and the contractors must have a chance to bid so and so on each section. How are you going to do all that on the information that is available at the present time? An engineer or a contractor will tell you it can't be done; they will not go ahead on it. You couldn't maKe a contract with them to build the canal on the information Ave have. • Mr. Bartlett. The substance of yonr view as to construction is that it can not actually be commenced until a resurvey is made? Colonel Ludlow. It can be. Mr. Bautlett. With safety^ 214 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. From the engineering? standpoint, I think it is extremely dangerous to do. It is what has gotten people into trouble whenever they have undertaken it. You vsee, the engineer is stubborn about that; he wants to know what he has to do before he undertakes to do it. He doesn't want to postpone accumulating his data, which will settle costly things, until he gets it nearly done. I assure you there is not an engineer in the world who would not tell you the same thing, if you sent for the whole of them. I have a lot of data here, in accordance with your request, that we spent yesterday in going over carefully. We have collected a lot of stuff which was really the guide for us in making the prices in our report. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You may state again, Colonel Ludlow, who is the chainnan of the Board of Commissioners who visited Nicaragua. Colonel Ludlow. My colleagues on the board were good enough to elect me to that position. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And who was the secretary? Colonel Ludlow. We had some trouble in getting a man. We first got a man from the War Department, and he was scared off; and then I had another one engaged, and he went off. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Whom did you finally get? Colonel Ludlow. A man named Stoddart. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Was he present with you in IsTew York at the time this report was made up and the items considered? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; he was there right along. He was the type- writer and stenographer for the Commission. We called him the secretary because it sounded a little more dignified. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Now, when all of the items embraced in this work were being considered by the board, did the board regularly vote upon the questions arising as to quantities, etc. ? Colonel Ludlow. No, sir; we never voted on anything. We were together all day long, and conferred all the time. We didn't have any formal voting. Mr. DooLiTTLE. In conceiving the spirit of your report, how was it that you decided to enter into a critical discussion of the project of the company's chief engineer instead of confining yourselves to a simple, straightforward report, making, as competent engineers, your own project from the data furnished or obtainable? Colonel Ludlow. There are two answers to that. One is that the reports of the chief engineer constituted the basis of the company's project — I do not know of any other. The second answer is that the law enacted by Congress under which the board was operating spe- cifically directed our attention to the com^jany's project, and did not authorize us to propose a project of our own. That appears on the inside of the cover of our report. We quote the law there, and with your permission I will answer your question that way, by direct reference to the law — an extract from the act aj^proved March 2, 1895. I may say here that we were pleased to find that we were not expected to forniulate a project of our own, but that under the provisions of that act we were directed to look into the feasibility of constructing the canal by the route already contemplated, or, to quote the language of the law — For the purpose of ascertaining the feasibility, permanence, and cost of the con- struction and completion of the Nicaragua Canal by the route contemplated and provided for by an act whicli passed the Senate January twenty-eighth, eighteen hundred and ninety-live, entitled "An act to amend the act entitled 'An act to incor- NICARAGUA CANAL. 215 porate the Maritime Canal Company of Nicaragua/ approved. February twentieth, eighteen hundred and eighty-nine," twenty tliousaud dolhirs. That's wliat we went to investigate. How are you going' to separate the chief engineer's statement from the project of the company. It is his project. He is the autlior of the project; who else? Engineers make engineering projects. The chief engineer of the canal company — or whatever tlie association is called — naturally made the project. It is a j)art of the oflicial record of the company. IMr. Menocal's ollicial report of 1S90 stands on record as the last publication from the company as explaining the project, and we had that in our hands. We had that to steer by. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, this report was made up from the data fur- nished by the company? Colonel Ludlow. Our report? Mr. DooLiTTLE. Yes, sir; in the main, was it not I Colonel LuDLOAV. But in our report you will find many statements and assertions based oh information we gathered ourselves. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Your report, however, was most largely made from the company's data? Colonel Ludlow. The details, yes, sir; but the important vital data we endeavored to ascertain for ourselves. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Why did you not yourselves get the data you com- plain the company did not furnish'? Colonel Ludlow. Instead of six months and $20,000, it probably would have taken three years and $600,000 to have done that. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do you think it would take three years to obtain the data that the company's statements are deficient in"? Colonel Ludlow. We estimated that it would take two and a half years, and we made a very narrow estimate — I should say we estimated it would take a year and a half, and I am sorry we did not make it two years. Mr. Dooltttle. Now, I wish you would state to the committee what examination you made when traveling up and down the San Juan Itiver to ascertain the character of the material in the bottom of the stream. Colonel Ludlow. We had no opportunity to make any. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Isn't it true, according to modern methods of ascer- taining the character of the bed of a river, that had you used the water jet rod the character of the bed of the San Juan Eiver could have been ascertained so far as earth material was concerned? Colonel Ludlow. No; excuse me, but there are two things that you embrace. You speak of a rod and a jet. One means a jet of water through a pipe. That is the forcing jiower of the jet which you depend on to sink a pipe down. In the other case, you liave a solid rod. Mr. DOOLITTLE, I understand, but isn't it termed by engineers and contractors water-jet rodding"? Colonel Ludlow. I have never heard it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I have a good many times, and I am not very familiar with engineering work. Colonel Ludlow. Those terms vary in different parts of the country. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How much exi)ense would have been involved in making that kind of a test from the steamer that conveyed you up and down the river — that is, so as to satisfy yourselves in a general way? Colonel Ludlow. We could not do anything of the kind. There were 30 miles of it. We would have had to spend the whole time trying to find out that bottom, and you can not get a water jet into a rock or hard clay. 216 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLTTTLE. But you cau through earth material? Colouel LvDLOw. What is earth? Mr. DooLiTTLE. Earth material — clay. Colonel Ludlow. The jet would find great difficulty in penetrating some clay. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is it not true that in building the Port Orchard dry dock they were enabled to penetrate the very hardest kind of cement hardpan by this means? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes, it is quite i^ossible, because hydraulic raining will tear almost anything. 1 have seen great chimneys torn down by this power. Mr. DOOLITTLE. This is not hydraulic mining, but a water jet. Colonel Ludlow. We had no appliances of that kind at all. It was out of the question for us to make such an exammation. Our time was too valuable to do that. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What would have been the expense of sending a man to have made an examination of that kind? Colonel Ludlow. What, :J0 miles? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, at frequent intervals through these 30 miles, making examinations. Colonel Ludlow. The material varies everywhere, according to the company's information, from sand to rock. You can go down with a water jet in sand. We could work through the clay, j)erhaps. We would not get far into the gravel. The jet distributes itself against the gravel, and you can not easily penetrate. AYith the rock, of course, we would be perfectly helpless. If we struck a bowlder, we would not know what it was. For such work steam drills, diamond drills, are necessary. Mr. DOOLITTLE, You are familiar with that method. Could you state to the committee the expense of an investigation of that kind, to be made by a competent man? Colonel Ludlow. It would have taken all our time down there. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But you had other men with j^ou? Colonel Ludlow. Y^es; and we kept them busy. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Y^ou did not detail anyone for that? Colonel Ludlow. No; no more than we detailed men for boring through the east divide. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Didn't it occur to you that so far as the clay and sand in the bottom of the river was concerned, it should be investi- gated ? Colonel Ludlow. W^e were decidedly of that opinion. , Mr. DOOLITTLE, Still you did not make such investigation? Colonel Ludlow. Not in the least. We thought that borings should be made in the east divide also, but we did not do so. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Will you state that an investigation could not have been made for $500 or $(;0() that would have enabled competent local parties to have water-jet rodded the whole bed with thousands of holes from that steamer? Colouel Ludlow. It was not possible. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That is, so far as the earth bottom of the river is concerned ? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, that could not be done. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And within the period you were down there? Colonel Ludlow. You think that for $400 or $500 you could get an engineer to make an investigation and ascertain the material which con- stituted the bed of that river. You could not do anything of the kind. NICARAGUA CANAL. 217 It would take many months instead of days or weeks, and thousands instead of hundreds of dollars. Mr. DooLiTTLE. My suggestion is simply this: That by the use of a water jet, rod, or tube, used from the steamer that you were traveling on, you could have made an investigation. It is true, isn't it, that in sand a water-jet pipe will descend as rapidly as you can drop it down? Colonel Ludlow. Sometimes taster. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And isn't it true that that kind of an investigation, for the purpose of ascertaining in a general way the bed of this stream for the purpose of your report, could have been made at an expense of $500 or 8G00! Colonel Ludlow. I don't think it could. It would simply be a waste of $500 or .$(300. Furthermore, the company had in its own possession a profile which purported to show the nature of that river bottom. We didn't find out that that protile was utterly fallacious until afterwards. Mr. DOOLITTLE. When did you find it Avas utterly fallacious? Colonel Ludlow. When we came to examine the com])any's records in New York. We found then that that profile was directly taken from the Lull information; and when we came to find out what information the Lull expedition obtained in reference to the river we found that they had simply made a boat survey of the river, taking the indications of the lead. We had no reason to distrust the authenticity of the informa- tion given us by the company until we found that there was no founda- tion for it, or next to none. The information was based merely on surface indications, the leadsman calling out what the indications were ns the boat went along. But there is a carefully constructed i^rofile, which is a ])art of the company's records, and which was given to us as a basis of their estimates. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Will you not state what you did, if anything, while down there in the way of ascertaining what the bed of that river actually contaiimin the way of material? Colonel Ludlow. We made no further attempt to ascertain the char- acter of the bottom of the river than the noting of what we could see. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What did you see that led you to believe that there was rock there? Colonel Ludlow. We saw lots of rock there. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What was the character of the rock; bowlders or ledges? Colonel Ludlow. Ledges and bowlders, both. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Where did you observe along the line of the river this rock you speak of, and to what extent? Colonel Ludlow. At all the rapids. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Won't you specify at what points? Colonel Ludlow. At Machuca; above that the Balas Rapids; the Castillio Rapids ; at the Toro E.ai)ids above that. At all of these points there was a large rock exposure. The river was low when we were there. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What extent would you say this rock covered be- tween Ochoa and the lake, from your observations? Colonel Ludlow. What we could see? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir; what you were able to note. Colonel Ludlow. It was a matter that could be measured by a few miles — what we could see. At the Machuca Rapids, I think, about 2 miles or 2;^ miles; at the Castillio Rapids onl}^ about a quarter of a mile; at the Balas Rapids the rock covered perhaps 2 or 3 miles; at the Tore Rapids it would cover perhaps 2 or 3 miles. 218 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. BooLlTTLE. Altogether, not to exceed 8 miles'? Colonel Ludlow. That much in >sight. Mr. DoOLiTTLB. And not to exceed that much rock in sight? Colonel Ludlow. That is i)erhaps all we saw. IMr. DooLiTTLE. Then you don't know that there is any other rock there than that you have mentioned'? Colonel Ludlow. No. Our information was derived from the pro- files submitted by the company. It was given us as official and was our information. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The other day when you were making a statement about the terminus of the canal on the Atlantic side, you said you thought it wise to change the mouth of the canal. In other words, when you recommend a ditferent Greytown entrance, do you not know that the point you designate is forbidden by the concessions — forbid- den by the charter of the company? Colonel Ludlow. No; we didn't pay much attention to that point — what was provided for by the concessions or the charter. We were doing engineering. Mr. ]>ooLiTTLE. Didn't you know that you crossed the boundary line? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; we knew it crossed the alleged boundary between Costa Kica and Nicaragua. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Uad you looked at the concessions to see whether it could be changed within the limits of those concessions! Colonel Ludlow. No, sir; we did not concern ourselves with those things. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Now, if that could not be changed under those con- cessions, would you still adhere to your plans'? Coh)nel Ludlow. I do not believe in paralyzing a project of this kind by a mere question of a mile or two of sand beach. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But you did state that the Greytown Harbor could be constructed; that it was feasible? Colonel Ludlow. We think so. Mr. DOOLITTLE. In accordance with the plans of the company Colonel Ludlow. The plans of the company? Not in the least. We believe that to be impracticable. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You believe it to be impossible? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, what is impossible? I would say impractica- ble — out of the question, if you choose, both as a question of engineer- ing and cost. Mr. DOOLITTLE, You believe a channel sufficiently deep could be constructed there by carrying those jetties sufficiently far seaward? If those jetties were built out far enough it could be maintained, you thiidv, do you not? Colonel Ludlow. It would be a fearful cost, and jiresently it would be threatened with destruction. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Please state what fearful cost? Colonel Ludlow. As fully set forth in our report. And I assure you, gentlemen, we gave most careful consideration to that whole sub- ject. We surveyed it and examined it and walked the beach and went up to investigate the Indio and Harbor Head, and had a whole survey of it made. We do not believe the Greytown Harbor entrance can be built where the company proposes it; that is to say, we regard it as impracticable, tor the reason it is the head of a bight, and we believe that the sand movement there — it being in both directions — is such that if you undertake to make your entrance there you will have to NICARAGUA CANAL. 219 figlit the sands coming from the east and from the north, and fight them forever. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What did you observe there, Colonel Ludlow, that led you to this conclusion'? Colonel Ludlow. That the sands were coming from both ways. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How did you know? Colonel Ludlow. We saw them. There is no question whatever abont that. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Siinds washing down the coast? Colonel Ludlow. Wasliing westward from the Harbor Point — from that broken piece oft' there [indicating on niap|, which is called Harbor Head. It looks like a little harbor or reentrant to the land at the right of that red thing [indicating on map], which represents the canal har- bor. To the right of that there is an opening, which from time to time is the harbor and the entrance to Greytown, and the only one. That was the case when the company went there. Now, the sands unques- tionably are coming in from that point of land. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Is that point of land threatened by this wash? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir. It is being cut oft" at the end. We dis- covered that; it had never been noted before. We made a careful comparison of a series of maps showing that point, and we proved that that eastern end was wasting. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And that bight was being filled up? Colonel Ludlow. Filled up in that direction. It can not be other- wise, because, if you i^lease, if you lay oft' a line there bearing between east and northeast you will get the direction of the prevailing wind, with an average direction of about east-northeast. That is the average direction of the trade winds. You will see, the east-northeast trade strikes the beach at an angle of about 45°. Those waves come in at that angle. They gather up material and take it along. The next wave takes it farther. You can see it; you can throw a chip over and see it. I know of a war ship that was anchored off that entrance, within a mile, and the sands there are so easily moved that the ship's anchors would not hold. They originally anchored oft' about 4 miles. They thought it would be more convenient to come in nearer, and so they came within about a mile of the beach. Their anchors held offshore, but after they came in this distance their anchors did not hold, but dragged, and they had to go out again. That, if you please, Mr. Doolittle, is half of it. Now, I will explain what the board believe to be the fact in regard to the other portion. Tliere is that river Indio. In ai)proaching the beach it turns parallel with the shore, toward Greytown. If I had a pointer I could indicate on the map what I mean. I mean the Indio comes down near the beach, and instead of directly entering the Caribbean Sea follows parallel on the inside. We investigated the action of that river there, and from the best information we could get its normal discharge was out into the Caribbean Sea, as would naturally be the case, but it has constantly worked to the south [indicating on the map], meeting the sea farther and farther to the south, and that sand spit follows along after tlie entrance until it gets near to Greytown. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What distance? Colonel Ludlow. I think it has been within 2 or 3 miles, and this np]>er distance here is a matter of 10 miles where it might go out; and from time to time, with a strong freshet from the Iiulio, the stream will cut right through that narrow stretch to the sea. Suppose that river 220 NICARAGUA CANAL. takes n notion to (j^o straight out tliere, it lias left tlseyi all that body of sand spit between its present mouth and Greytown. It has sort of transferred that sand spit bodily to the right bank, when it was for- jnerly on the left. It goes on and does that thing again. It repeats itself, and, as we believe, although no observations have been made, that action is continually going on, with the result that there is a bodily movement of that beach sand down toward the end of this funnel, meeting the incoming sand from the other side. We do not believe it to be safe to undertake to build an entrance to that harbor there. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What is the size of that river? Colonel LiTDLOW. A great big river. My. Doolittle. It does not compare with the San Juan? Colonel LuuLOW. We did not go up the Indio very much. I should Siiy where we saw it, near the entrance, I jDresume it was 200 to 400 feet Avide .and above that wider. ]\lr. Doolittle. Is that affected by the tide? Colonel Ludlow. There is no tide in the Caribbean Sea to speak of. Mr. Doolittle. Is there a tide at Greytown? What is the tide there? Colonel Ludlow. From 9 to 13 or 14 inches. Mr. Doolittle. Is that a silt-carrying stream? Colonel Ludlow. All those streams have been, I think, in times past, because this delta is built uy> of that. Mr. Doolittle. Did you examine that stream? Colonel Ludlow. Walked up the beach ourselves; yes, sir. ]Mr. Doolittle. Now, what would that have had to do with the depth of water to be obtained between those jetties, provided those jetties were constructed of proi^er material and carried out to a sufficient depth to deep water — permanent deep water? Colonel Ludlow. How far would it go? Mr. Doolittle. How far would you go? Colonel Ludlow. That is the point. Mr. Doolittle. How far do you go out there to get 7 fathoms of water? Colonel Ludlow. About 0,000 or 8,000 feet. ]\Ir. Doolittle. That is not a very long jetty, is it? Colonel Ludlow. The 7-fatlioms contour is about 4,000 feet from the shore, and the 8-fathoms contour about 8,000 feet from the shore, on the line of the company's jetty. They built a thousand feet of it, or less, and the shore line has followed out as they built the pier. Mr. Doolittle. That is not a jetty of unusual length at all — 8,000 feet— is it? Colonel Ludlow. No, there are jetties much longer than that. Mr. Doolittle. Yes, even at the mouth of tlie Columbia River; twice that length. Colonel Ludlow. Perhaps two or three times as long. Mr. Doolittle. The one contemplated at Greys Harbor, the coast of Washington, for instance. Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; the breakwater at Chicago is 0,000 feet. Mr. Do(^little. Then the building of jetties of that length would be, of course, nothing unusual? Colonel Ludlow. No, not if it were necessary. But suppose you had reason to api)rehend that after you had built your jetties, in the course of a period of time not extremely protracted, your work would l)e wasted? Mr. Doolittle. How far beyond the point of land that is being cut down would they reach if carried to 8,000 feet? NICARAGUA CANAL. 221 Colonel LiTDi.ow. You see how that jetty heads [pointing to map]? Mr. J)()()LiTTLE. Yes, sir. Colonel Ia'Dlow. Up the beach. Mr. 1 )ooLiTTLE. I do not regard it as up the beach. Colonel Ludlow. It heads north, a little west of north. Mr. DooLiTTLE, How far would 8,000 feet carry it? Mr. Noble. Very nearly north. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The head of laud you spoke of. Would not 8,000 feet, or if carried out to 7 fathoms, would it not be away out seawanl, beyoiul the point of land you have been speaking of as being cut away? Colonel Ludlow. It would be farther from shore, but not in deep water. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Would it not be in deeper water? Colonel Ludlow. No; because you can get at a point farther east 8 fathoms in a very short distance. iMr. DooLiTTLE. How far would you go before you would get 8 fathoms of water? Colonel Ludlow. Two thousand feet from shore. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How far does that point of land extend northward beyond the mouth of the canal, emptying into the sea? Colonel Ludlow. How far does that extend northward? It does not extend northward. Mr. DOOLITTLE. In what direction does it extend? Colonel Ludlow. The iwiut of land you speak of is about east of the canal. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I understand, but I say how much farther north does it extend than the mouth of the canal as shown on the map? Colonel Ludlow. I don't think it is any north of it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Then does it extend farther seaward to the north compared with the mouth of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. Farther seaward — farther eastward. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And farther north? Colonel Ludlow. I think not. Mr. DooLiTTLE. See, the arrow points north, doesn't it [pointing to map] ? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; it is supposed to. That is a ver}^ crude map. I brought down with me the only little map I could find of this thing. Mr. DOOLITTLE. In accordance with this arrow, this point of land here Colonel Ludlow. Seems to lie a little northerly, I see. It seems to. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I say, how much farther north does it lie than that harbor [referring to map ou the wall] ? Colonel Ludlow. I don't know. You can not estimate anything oft that. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You ran surveys? Colonel Ludlow. Surely; but if you will give me a map I will show you in a minute. We turned in six or eiglit maps of Greytown Harbor. I may be permitted to state, while I am about it, that there have been very cai)able engineers who have declared the construction of a harbor at that point impossible. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I wish you would name those engineers. Colonel Ludlow. I do not know, at this moment, who they are. I merely state that fact. We do not quote them, because we do not agree with them. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You believe a harbor can be built there? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, and say so, and estimate for the construction. 222 NICARAGUA CANAL. Tbis little map I have here is the best I happen to have with me, bat it does not show very much; it is on too large a scale. I might say that i)()int seems to be a little north, if you please. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I would like to ask you whether, in your judgment, it ■would be a better plan to extend those jetties in a right line and to the north than to construct them as they are constructed in accordance with the plans of the companj^? Colonel Ludlow. We think, as far as that jetty is concerned, it is sufiiciently well placed, and about the proper direction, supposing you are going to make your entrance at that point. We do not criticise that. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How far out beyond the 8,000 feet would it be neces- sary, or have you any data to base your judgment on, as to how much farther out those jetties should be built than 8,000 feet in order to get them into permanent deep water? Colonel Ludlow. If you got out to 8,000 feet you have got into a depth of water which we found by examination of the charts — the infor- mation was not entirely full about it — the indications were that the 8-fathom contour in the sea bed was quite fixed. There seemed to be a remarkable stability about the 8-fathom curve. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And you think the sand would no longer trouble when you reached the 8-fathom depth? Colonel Ludlow. It did seem, under the ordinary natural conditions, that there had been very little movement of the sand at that deptli. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How far would you go beyond the 8,000 feet before reaching 8 fathoms? Colonel Ludlow. That is where you get it on the line of the com- l^any's i)ier. Mr, DOOLITTLE. In 8,000 feet? Colonel Ludlow. You would get it at 8,000 feet on the line of the company's ])ier. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You believe that would make a permanent harbor and channel? Colonel Ludlow. You asked me how long it would take to diminish the depth of the entrance at that point. Now, understand me, we believe that where tliis company's entrance is proposed the filling takes place from both directions, and with a pier constructed as the company pro- poses, the sand would bank up there — the sand coming from the east, as it will — with any jetty you put there. Furthermore, it is exposed to the influx of sand from the west, which has got to be taken care of. ];t Mr. DOOLITTLE. But if extended to 8,000 feet in length? ^ Colonel Ludlow. If it were extended so as to inclose the whole thing on botli sides it would be a long time before you would have any trouble with it. Mr. ]>00LiTTLE. And a channel of that kind can always be dredged? Colonel Ludlow. Yes. Ml-. DOOLITTLE. Isayit can always be readily dredged if it shallows. Colonel Ludlow. There is no serious trouble about that; it has to be done on pretty much all sandy shores. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Your summary is that the canal is feasible, can be built and operated and maintained at a profit to the builders, and with advantage to the United States and the commerce of the world? Colonel Ludlow. I don't recognize that exactly as a quotation from our report. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Isn't that your conclusion; isn't that true? Colonel Ludlow. I prefer the text of our conclusion as contained in our report. We confine ourselves to the engineering features NICARAGUA CANAL. 223 Mr. DooLiTTLE. But the substance of that is that the canal is feasible? Colonel Ludlow. We say it is feasible, and we think by modifying the company's project in some i^articulars it can be built. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And can be operated and maintained at a profit to the builders, and with advantage to the United States and the commerce of the world? Colonel Ludlow. You don't find that in what we say. Do you want my j)ersonal opinion "? Mr. DooLiTTLE. Yes, sir. Colonel Ludlow. You asked me as a member of the board. We didn't go into any commercial statistics, any navigation statistics, or military statistics. That was not a i^art of what it was our business to investigate, aiid it would have been impertinent on our part to have done so. We were told to confine ourselves to engineering, and we were glad to do that. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And you desire to answer that question by your report? Colonel Ludlow. We stand right on that; yes, sir. I am willing to express my individual opinion if it would be of any value. Mr. DOOLITTLE. JSTow, isn't it true that your board believes that this country should be the prime factor, and that the canal would best be built with American talent, machinery, and supplies? Colonel Ludlow. That is a matter with which the Board, collectively, have nothing whatever to do ; have never considered it. I can not speak for my colleagues on that matter. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How is it with yourself ? Do you believe this coun- try should be the prime factor, and that it should be best built by American talent, machinery, and supplies? Colonel Ludlow. We exj)ressed the opinion that it will have to be built by Jamaica negroes. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I understand — that is, so far as the common labor is concerned, but I mean the general building? Colonel Ludlow. I think it would be an extremely nice thing for the American engineers to take a hand at this. The French engineers tried the Panama Canal and wrecked themselves. The English engi- neers had a chance at the Manchester Canal and blundered a bit — as the Englishman sometimes does — and the German had his chance at the Kiel Canal and made a success. Now, I want to see the American engineers take hold of this Nicaraguan Canal and succeed, as they will do. ' Mr. DOOLITTLE. You have no doubt that they will succeed? Colonel Ludlow. Not the least. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do you not believe that Americans could build it quicker and cheaper than any others? Colonel Ludlow. I have absolute faith in the ability of the Ameri- cans to do almost anything better than anybody else, including the construction of canals. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And in answer to this question you would unhesi- tatingly say yes? Colonel Ludlow. I should say so. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Have you taken into the accounts on which your estimates are based the greatly lower prices of machinery, iron, steel, provisions, powder, and all the most modern methods for canal excava- tion, and utilization of electricity, compressed-air drills and jDumps, and have you figured rail transportation per ton per mile according to results obtained? 224 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes; we met tbe matter absolutely. "We made an investigation of this in order to anive at unit prices up to date — last snminer. We resorted to every means of informatiim open to us. We took in all the statistics we could get from responsible and reliable and capable people. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Have you also considered that your estimates for this work are upon a gold basis'? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes; we have not estimated anything excei)t upon a gold basis. Mr. DooLiTTLE. All a gold basis? Colonel Ludlow. We could not have made estimates upon a silver basis down there, because their silver is only worth 50 cents on the dollar, and it varies every day. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What allowance did you make, if any, that labor, except skilled labor, would be paid for by silver in that country*? Colonel Ludlow. We didn't go into that question. We depended in that respect largely upon information as to the actual value of all physical labor in the Tropics, getting our information from capable and well informed men. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You know that all unskilled labor there will be paid for in silver ? Colonel Ludlow. Of course the natives there take silver. They never saw gold, and would not know what it was if you gave it to them. They would be paid in silver. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You say you did not take that into consideration? Colonel Ludlow. We arrived at the matter by a shorter way. We left that consideration out because Ave found certain i)ersons who knew all about that sort of thing. There was a concurrence of opinion that the actual value of labor was about one-half what it is in the United States. Consequently, the value being one-half, the cost would be doubled. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What proportion of the cost of constructing this canal would the unskilled labor to be employed make up? Colonel Ludlow. I don't know; we didn't make any estimate on that. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Could you readily do so? Colonel Ludlow. Not in the least, readily. It would be a difficult investigation, embracing a lot of figures. We would have to estimate the dift'erent kinds of work down there, as to what would be rei)resented by skilled labor and what by unskilled labor, ordinary or brute labor. It would vary a great deal with the different kinds of work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Did you allow that any other items than labor would be atiected by the use of silver in that country? Colonel Ludlow. We did not go into silver at all. We did not con- sider that question at all. We left that out. We were taking absolute prices, and all our estimates are based on the United States standard. Mr. DOOLITTLE. As though the canal were being constructed in the United States? Colonel Ludlow. By American engineers and the use of American money, yes; and with the estimates based on American currency. There is no doubt about that. I think anybody who should estimate that would have to do it on that basis. Otherwise you would get your- self into fearful trouble if you should introduce the variable value of silver as a factor in your estimate. The committee adjourned until 2 p. m. NICARAGUA CANAL. 225 AFTER RECESS. STATEMENT OF COL. WILLIAM LUDLOW— Continued. Colonel Ludlow. Mr. Chairman, with your permission I will be glad to correct the record. I showed this profile of the Ochoa Dam this morning and stated it was one of the exhibits accompanying our report. I was in error as to that. Mr. DooLiTTLE. On account of its being obsolete you made no use of it? Colonel Ludlow. Of course we had no use for it. It was submitted to us as all there was. We got nothing later, you understand. Mr. DoonTTLE. I wish you would state to the committee what pro- portion in relation to the expense does the unskilled labor bear to the total expense in works of this kind, and if you made any inquiry or attempted to inform yourself relative to that! Colonel Ludlow. That proportion will vary everywhere under dif- ferent conditions, and particularly with the nature of the work to be done. There is much work that only skilled labor can do, and there is much work that unskilled labor can do — digging a trench, wheeling a barrow, etc. Mr. DooLiTTLE. There will be a great need for unskilled labor in this work ? Colonel Ludlow. There will undoubtedly be a large number of unskilled laborers employed in connection with it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And a very large proportion of the expense of con- structing the canal would consist in the payment of this unskilled labor? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; of course they would have to be paid. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But a large proportion of the total expense would be that paid out for unskilled labor? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; I should say so; a large proportion. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Can you make any general estimate relative to that proportion on this work? Colonel Ludlow. We have not endeavored to do so at all. I have not any data in my mind to enable me to answer that now. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Would you say one-third of the total expense would be wages paid to unskilled labor? Colonel Ludlow. I should think that would be Mr. DOOLITTLE. Or half? Colonel Ludlow. It is a matter of estimate. I have not anything in my mind at the time to guide me. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Have you had at any time during your investiga- tion of this subject? Colonel Ludlow. No; that would be a thing I would have to study over. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Have you had that in your mind at any time during the investigation of this subject? Colonel Ludlow. No ; I think not. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I wish you would comjiare for the committee the labor accomplished by the Jamaica negro paid in silver with the labor of this country paid in gold. Colonel Ludlow. I can only do that in one way. The Jamaica negro was very freely employed on the Panama Canal, and he was very freely emi^loyed on the construction of the Costa Eica Railroad. In both cases the two gentlemen whom we were able to get access to and who N C 15 226 NICARAGUA CANAL. were the best advised of tlie value of tlie labor on those two works Avere consulted, one being Colonel Kives, who for many years has been manager of the Panama Eailway and fully cognizant of everything on the Isthmus, himself an engineer and railway man of extended expe- rience at home and a very prolonged experience in that country; the other being Mr. M. 0. Keith, an American, who built the Costa Kica Eailway, a difficult work, built from Port Limon on the coast 104 miles to San Jose, the capital of Costa Kica, reaching an altitude of 5,000 feet. To his judgment in reference to the value of labor and to Colonel Eives' judgment in reference to the value of labor in that country we attach very great importance, and it largely guided our judgment. The statements of those two gentlemen were comparatively confirmed by similar estimates made in New York by contractors whom we recog- nized as competent and responsible men, and whose judgment seemed generally to confirm the concurrent judgment of those two men of whom I spoke. It all ran in the direction of showing that in order to estimate in this matter you can take the value of labor in the United States and multiply it by two. Mr. DooLiTTLE. That is, the Jamaica negro would accomplish half as much in the same time as the laborer emj^loyed in the United States? Colonel Ludlow. No, not quite that; that the actual value of labor in the tropics, the actual value accomplished by the laborer in the tropics for a given quantity of work, would involve a cost twice as much as in the United States. It is not only inferior labor, but there are the climatic and health conditions as well. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Have you any means of knowing what the experi- ence of the Nicaragua Company was in the employment of this labor there? Colonel Ludlow. I am familiar with the fact, for example, that they did certain work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But about the successful employment of these men and their accomplishment compared with the labor of other countries? Colonel Ludlow. They built a railroad down there. There was some minor railroad work done by the company, and they had a certain amount of experience. Mr. Treat was immediatelj^ in charge of that work. He was the contractor under the company. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do not you know that the labor employed there was satisfactory ? Colonel Ludlow. I have understood so. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And, owing to the fact that silver was made use of for the payment of the wages of those men, that the labor was much cheaper, according to the accomplishment, than in the United States on a gold basis ? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, yes; the labor is cheaper and proportionately less effective, too. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I say in accordance with the accomplishment of the laborer it was much cheaper than the laborer on such work in the United States. Colonel Ludlow. It depends upon what you mean by that. Colonel Eives and Mr. Keith would tell you it is not cheaper, and that while they got less they did so much less that the work costs twice as much. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do you mean to say the same amount of work done there would cost twice as much in gold as in the United States ? Colonel Ludlow. As the same amount of work done in the United States. NICARAGUA CANAL. 227 Mr. DooLiTTLE. Would cost twice as much in gold? Colonel Ludlow. That is our understanding of the distinct declara- tion of those gentlemen. Mr. DooLiTTLE. It would cost twice as much in gold? Colonel LuDLO w. In gold, standard value. Mr. Sherman. In other words, the work is worth one-fourth of what it is here? Colonel Ludlow. Practically, if you choose. If they are only paid half the wages, the work done there would be practically one-foarth, if you choose, by their general estimate of it. We had nothing to steer by ourselves except a number of opinions aud statements, and according to the statements of those gentlemen if you want to estimate the cost of a piece of work in Nicaragua you estimate the cost of it in the United States and multiply that cost by two and you will get down to what it would cost in Nicaragua. Mr. Patterson. You mean by this the amount of labor which would cost $100 in gold in the United States — I mean the number of days of work — could be purchased in South America for $100 in silver, but the result of that day's work would only be half? Colonel Ludlow. One-fourth, practically. There is another divisor there. A given amount of work in Nicaragua would cost twice what it would cost in the United States, and you can figure it any way you like. Mr. Patterson. That is the result? Colonel Ludlow. That is the outcome. Mr. Patterson. Suppose there is a job of work that will cost $10,000 in gold in this country. You can employ men in Central America to work on that job, paying them the same per diem in silver that is paid in the United States in gold, but still at the same time when the work was completed it would cost $20,000? Colonel Ludlow. Twice as much as in the United States. I think there is no doubt about that. Mr. Noble. And that opens up the question of what the wages would probably be in case there was a large demand for labor. Colonel Ludlow. That is true. That estimate includes everything. It Includes disease and sickness, and extra employment, if you please, of skilled labor as well, and in many cases duplicate skilled labor you have to have, because you can not get another fellow if this man gets sick. It includes all these contingencies, and inasmuch as it was impos- sible to go into all details, we accepted as a general guide of our j udg- ment, with modifications for particular localities, that the cost of the work in Nicaragua would be substantially twice what it would be in the United States for a given piece of work. That is as definite and as clear as I can make it. Mr. Patterson. In other words, if it costs so much to construct such a work in the United States, say $75,000,000, in South America it would cost $150,000,000 of the same kind of money, practically? Colonel Ludlow. That is precisely what I mean to say. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Does that apply to anything but labor? Colonel Ludlow. That applies to the whole thing. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Do you think that applies to machinery? Colonel Ludlow. Everything in which the element of cost enters. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That is, a dredge down there would cost twice as much as in the United States, and powder would cost twice as much, and cement would cost twice as much Colonel Ludlow. No; not at all. Mr. DOOLITTLE. That is what you said. 228 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Patteeson. You do not mean that the items would cost twice as much, but the whole cost would be twice as much? Colonel Ludlow. That is it exactly. You undertook to apply that general statement to each independent item, and it does not; but you talk about dredging. Suppose you made a contract with Mr. Bates to go to Nicaragua and dredge a million yards or ten million yards. He would give you a certain price for it. Would not that price include getting the dredge there? Mr, DooLiTTLE. Naturally. Colonel Ludlow. Naturally ; and that is one element of cost. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How much would that be? Colonel Ludlow. It would include possibly, if the work was suffi- ciently large, sinking his dredge in the work; he would charge the whole cost of his dredge. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Would not that same rule apply to any work in the United States? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, surely; but look at the distance you have got to go. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You are speaking now on the subject of dredging. What do you suppose will be the cost to take one of the dredges built as these dredges are, perfectly seaAvorthy, from San Francisco to Brito? Colonel Ludlow. What would be its use at Brito? Mr. DooLiTTLE. Or, say, from New Orleans to Greytown? Colonel Ludlow. What would you do with it if you had it there? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Make use of it in the construction of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. How could you use it on the canal? There is no entrance; you can not get in there; there are no harbors there. You can not do anything with a dredge taken down in that way. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Then you state to the committee that a canal that would cost $100,000,000 in the United States of the same character as the Nicaragua Canal in that country would cost $200,000,000? Colonel Ludlow. That is exactly what we mean, and that is pre- cisely what we understand to be the case. Now, since I have referred here to gentlemen who have had experience in these things, we find that opinion further confirmed by the estimate of Colonel Childs, who was a very competent engineer, and he made a very careful survey of the canal across the Isthmus and reported in 1852. He gives in parallel columns the price of the construction of that canal according to the New York prices, and then makes an estimate according to Nicaragua prices derived from the use of his best judgment in using the local labor and taking into account all local conditions. Now, it is rather remarkable that Colonel Childs's Nicaragua figures are almost exactly double the New York figures. Mr. Patterson. Just one question. Now, you spoke of conferring with Mr. Hives and other gentlemen, Mr. Eives having had long expe- rience on the route of the Panama. Now, my understanding is Colonel Ludlow. And in the United States also, if you please, prior to going down there. Mr. Patterson (continuing). My understanding is that at Nicaragua the conditions prevailing there are much more adverse to life, and that natural causes augmentnig, the cost of that work there might be much greater than at Nicaragua. My information is, after you get out of the alluvial land there, all along that river and this lake, that the climate is comparatively healthful compared with the route at Panama, and I want to know now if you think there ought not to be a discount in your estimate growing out of the difference in the conditions at those two points? NICAEAGUA CANAL. 229 Colonel Lttdlow. I apprehend, sir, that if the discount were to be made, it would have to be the other way. I should be afraid to make the discount in favor of the Nicaragua route. Mr. Patterson. Why? Colonel Ludlow. Well, for one reason, the rainfall at Panama is only about one-half that at Nicaragua. That in a construction ques- tion is a very imjDortant one. We have records from Colonel Rives of the Panama rainfall, and we have a partial record of the Nicaragua rainfall, and a comparison of the two shows the rainfall on the whole is about one-half on the Panama line what it is on the Nicaragua line. That, of course, would be a distinct advantage in favor of the Panama, both having, however, an excess of water in either case. The Panama route has another very marked advantage, if you clioose — I am not advocating the Panama route, but I am stating in answer to your ques- tion what I believe to be the facts — it has an immense advantage in that at both ends are absolutely safe and capable harbors. They are in constant and daily use, and have been for years, by steamers of all dimensions, practically. There is a harbor at Colon — and an excellent one — and there is a har- bor at Panama — and an excellent one — perfectly sheltered and safe. Furthermore, the distance across the Isthmus of Panama is only 47 miles, while the distance across the Isthmus of Nicaragua is 170. Fur- thermore, the Panama Railroad has for forty years been in existence at Panama, and immediately adjoins the line of the canal the whole distance, with all facilities for landing, distributing, and transporting material, men, and everything else. In certain respects the physical conditions at Panama are very favorable as compared with those exist- ing over the other route. Now, then, on the other hand, if you choose, I will lean Mr. DooLiTTLE. Give us the other side of the picture. Colonel Ludlow. I will lean a little that way. On the other hand, the sanitary history of the Panama enterprise is very dreadful. The mortality down there, both in the construction of the railroad and the construction of the canal as far as it has gone, and it is apparently about half built, was very great indeed, very great; the mortahty was tremendous. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do you remember what percentage it was during any given time? Colonel Ludlow. No, it is not easily ascertained. The hospital records show the mortality. Of course, it is not likely we would really get the whole of it, because people do not like to publish those partic- ulars. Mr. Patterson. Have you any reason to believe there would be less mortality at Nicaragua? Colonel Ludlow. I think we have reason to believe it would be less. All the same, you go down to the Costa Rica Railroad, which leaves the coast and presently climbs the mountains and gets into almost the most magnificent country you ever saw. Mr. Keith told us when he came to build the railroad he had, of course, to import the labor. You can not get those natives down there to do work of that kind. They are not fit for it, or qualified to do it, and they do not want to do it. He tried to get the Jamaica negro, but the Panama Canal was drawing largely on the Jamaica resources, and he could not get what he wanted. He imported negroes from the United States, and he imported Chinamen, and imported Italians. The United States negroes were of very little good down there. They were discontented and unhappy, and died off 230 NICARAGUA CANAL. like sbeep. The Chinese rotted. Out of the large nnmber — several hundred — of the Italians whom he imported, very few of them ever got away. They are there now. The Jamaica negro is the fellow who seems to stand that sort of thing better than anybody else, and they did better with him, and after awhile they were able to get enough of that labor to go on and complete their work, but all the while the mortality was great, and according to these men it was extremely formidable. Now, at Nicaragua they have had sonie experience, but very little practical experience, of this kind. The difficulty seems to come about from these terrible epidemics of pernicious fever and all kinds of fevers. It is as soon as you begin to break the ground, and particularly when you begin to drink the water in the vicinity of the broken ground; it seems as though the soil undisturbed was all right. We went through that country without having an attack of fever or anything else. The health statistics of Nicaragua are very satisfactory, at Greytown par- ticularly. They have fevers there, but they have fevers everywhere in low lying countries, and we found no more indications of mortality in Nicaragua, Greytown or elsewhere, than in numerous places on the Gulf coast or on our South Atlantic and other coasts where the districts are supposed to be malarious. Mr. Patterson. There was a considerable section of the railway constructed out from Greytown? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; 11^ miles of it. Mr. Patterson. And there seems to have been a very considerable force employed at that timef Colonel Ludlow. There was quite a force. Mr. Patterson. Did you make inquiries to ascertain the mortality in regard to that? Colonel Ludlow. It has been stated in the company's papers, and we have dealt with that. They gave us hospital records for that work and they were very satisfactory, but we could not disregard the fact and fail to take into account the conditions of the labor. These men were not excavating clay. They were not digging through clay. They were described in the canal company's reports as building a railroad through the swamp knee deep or up to their necks in the water. Now that is another imj)ortant thing. The American negro can work in a rice field without getting any serious effect out of it, where it would kill a white man. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is not that about as unhealthy as it would be Colonel Ludlow. Apparently the unhealthy thing is disturbing the ground. When you begin to break the clay and drink the water, that is the time of troubTe, and it will not be safe to assume that there would not be a very considerable mortality in connection with any of that work in that portion of country. You have to make hospital districts, to make all hospital arrangements with great care, and you have to have your hospital regulations rigidly enforced, and you must not allow men to drink rum in that country, and you must have a dry place for them to sleep. Those who were employed in building this railroad at Grey- town were brought back at night to Greytown to sleep. Mr. Doolittle. Do they have yellow fever at Nicaragua along the line of this canal? Colonel Ludlow. Tliey have some yellow fever in Nicaragua, but it is not imi)ortant or a difficult matter. They have another class of fever which the people call ''pernicious fever." Mr. Doolittle. Is the j'cllow fever ever prevalent there? Are not those cases brought in, and is it not frequently the case they are brought from Panama for restoration to health? NICARAGUA CANAL. 231 Colonel Ludlow. I tliiuk if you will do the board the honor to exam- ine its report, you will find we have stated that very fact in our report. Mr. DooLiTTLE. That is done. Then there is no prevailing type of fever aside trom this malarial fever of which you sijoke"? Colonel Ludlow. They have malarial fever and the pernicious fever of which I spoke. The doctors dislike to refer to it as yellow fever, but it kills a man in a day or two. 1 believe the distinction between yellow fever and pernicious fever is that one is contagious and the other not, or something of that kind. Mr. DooLiTTLE. But Nicaragua is healthy compared with Panama'? Colonel Ludlow. On the whole, I think the conditions are better, and I donbt if the Panama enterprise ever had proper hospital care, etc. I think the mortality at Panama and Costa Eica could be very much diminished at Nicaragua, and the board has taken that view of it, and we are very glad to do it. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Now, I have noted an item of four millions for man- agement and engineering to which 20 per cent is added, making $4,800,000. Please segregate the items and describe in detail the organization which would cost this sum in gold coin — that is, the $4,800,000? Colonel Ludlow. On what page is that? Do you refer to our report? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir. Colonel Ludlow. I will examine it. For management and engineer- ing we made a round sum for that which represents a certain i^ercentage of the total estimated cost of the work. That is all that it represents. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Now I ask this: Twenty per cent is added, making $4,800,000; are you able to segregate the items and describe in detail the organization of the management which would cost this sum in gold coin ? Colonel Ludlow. We do not make the figures in that way. We put that figure as a percentage on the total cost of the work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. For management? Colonel Ludlow. For management and engineering. It is the usual practice in estimates of this kind. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How much of that would be engineering and how much would be for management? Colonel Ludlow. They all run in together. Mr. DOOLITTLE. They must have been segregated at some time dur- ing their consideration? Colonel Ludlow. They were not. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Should not that have been done? Colonel Ludlow. I do not know it should have been done. Mr. DOOLITTLE (continuing). By apparently competent engineers, such as constituted your board ? Colonel Ludlow. Understand, our time was somewhat limited. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I understand. Colonel Ludlow. We could not examine every point. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But here is a very large amount of money, $4,800,000, and it seems to me Colonel Ludlow. It is not $4,800,000; it is $4,000,000. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But if you add the 20 per cent it makes $4,800,000? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, of tlie whole thing, yes. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I should like to know very much how tliat amounts to that great sum? Colonel Ludlow. It represents a certain per cent of the total cost of 232 NICARAGUA CANAL. the work, wliich, iu au enterprise of this kind, is usually charged in that way. Mr. DooLiTTLE. You say ''usually?" Colonel Ludlow. Yes, usually. Mr. DooLiTTLE. In what cases is it charged in that way! Colonel Ludlow. In almost all cases of that sort. I am going to quote an illustration of that from a report which the company had from the Bogart board. Do you remember that? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Very well. Colonel Ludlow. It was a board of consulting engineers, which board met in Few York to consult the data and make a report, and it reported on the estimates of the comi)any with the comi^any's data and figures. Now, if you will examine that, you will find that the Bogart board adaid coinmon lalior, but the rate of exchange at the time made the daily wages equivalent to $1.20 gold. The foregoing data and your knowledge of the situation in Nicaragua will enable you to arrive at conclusions. Whatever they may be, however, they are likely to be under rather than over, as the larger the number of workmen needed the more diffi- cult it becomes to maintain low wages. lu regard to the figures for dift'erent kinds of -work in my "avant projet" for tlie Panama Canal, they were arrived at by taking contractors' experiences in different sections, with attendant special difficulties, and reducing the figures by obvious possible economies — they were only roughly arrived at. The masonry contemplated was analogous to that described in the Quaker Dam project for tlie Croton waterworks, and tlie figures adopted were based partly upon experience on culverts on the Isthmus and partly upon the fact that such work in the Tropics, even if well conducted, generally costs double as much as in the United States. NICARAGUA. CANAL. 261 Contiuuous heat, excessive rains, consequent sickness, and inferior labor consti- tute great difficulties in carrying on important works rapidly and successfully in the Tropics, and render close estimates, as a rule, very deceptive. Please consider this imperfect reply to your queries aa unofficial. Very truly, yours, A. L. KiVES. AxFRED Noble, P^sq., C. E., 1364 Monadnock Block, Chicago, III. Colonel Ludlow. "Where he refers to his " avant projet," that refers in fact to the present project which tlie French engineers at Panama are investigating and working over, and which Cok)nel Ifivcs himself was the first j^erson to put in an engineering form. Tlie idea had been snggested — the engineers and the Panama company were all adrift with the failure of their sea-level cnnal at Panama — and Colonel Eives being there and professionally interested in those things, took the trouble to collate the data for the first time, made a sketcli and draw- ing, showing the summit-level proposition, and it is now the absolute basis of the company's present project, although he has no connection with the company except as the manager of the Panama Eailroad. We telegraphed Colonel Kives and he gave us authority to use this infor- mation, if it is considered to be of any value. "VVe are very glad to have it, because it is of great value we think. Now, in continuation of this same subject; we have extracts here from a published volume in French by the Panama Canal Company of the prices which they indicate as the basis of their estimate of w^ork down there, and they surely liave had some i)rolonged and painful experiences in undertaking work at Panama. These are figures which Colonel Eives, in one case, and Mr. Napoleon Bonapart AVyse, of the Panama Canal Company, in the other, gather independently, and we have sim- ply collated them and put them in parallel columns. You will under- stand we are talking about canal construction, which is analogous in some respects to the Nicaragua construction. The original proposition was a sea-level canal, over which the French nation nearly broke them- selves by trying to do it with the very insufiticient information which they had. Mr. Patterson. That was a sea-level proposition? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir ; and the cause of their failure, and in fact the cause of their undertaking an impracticable proposition was because the prior investigation was absolutely defective. That to my mind was the cause of the failure of the Panama project. They had a totally insuiiticient amount of practical engineering information with regard to the tremendous project which they started to execute. Mr. Patterson. Eight there, do you think the Panama Canal prac- ticable? Colonel Ludlow. Indeed, I do not know, sir. 1 would be very glad if I could answer that question in my mind. We were down there, and the show those people made was very surprising. We went there expecting to find a wreck, with the plant lying along the canal route, covered with mud and growth, and with the canal washed full of mud and sand, and everything in ruin. We found a beautiful prospect, with 10 or 15 miles of canal which we sounded out ourselves, and that told us that even in the several years the work had been abandoned it only filled up a meter and a half, 4 or 5 feet. There was a long stretch of that. We found the line of the canal covered with plant, painted and kept in repair. We found great dredges with watchmen on board and painted and white leaded, and men painting the interior, and we found railroad trains, and con- 2G2 NICARAGUA CANAL. strnctioii trains, and railroad plant in an immense quantity, and we found 1,200 rtr 1,500 men at work at the Oulebra Pass with construction plant, and it looked like a very prosperous enterprise. I (lo not know what are the Freucli engineers' recent data, but since tlie tremendous failure tbey have been working bard to get information wbicb tliey should have had in the first place, and now they are rejiresented as feeling very confident of getting through. What the source of the confidence is I do not know, because we did not examine their data. Mr. Patterson. Do they propose to have locks in this canal'? Colonel Ludlow. It is a summit-level canal. They enter for 15 or more miles on sea level, and then come three locks, bringing them up to the summit level. ]\Ir. DooLiTTLE. What is the height of the water? Colonel LiTDLOW. About 100 feet. They come up by these three locks 100 feet, and then they go across this dangerous Culebra Mountain at a high level, and then lock down to the other side to the sea-level section into the Bay of Panama. Mr. Stewaet. Does that beautiful and poetic situation at Panama — do you think they started out without any design or objective point, without having an intelligent engineering design and i)rospectof what they were going to arrive at? Do you think they arrived at this beau- tiful and poetic situation which you describe at Panama without any design"? Colonel Ludlow. Do you mean that I think they started in on the execution of the work without sufficient preparation? Uudoubtedly; it is notorious. Mr. Stewart. De Lesseps does not say so? Colonel Ludlow. He is no engineer, if you please. He is an extraor- dinarily able man, and a very marvelous man, but he is no more an engineer than I am a harpist. Mr. Stewart. Would he have collected and associated with him men of engineering skill and control led them if Colonel LuDLOAV. He had the most extraordinary faculty of persuad ing and dominating other people's judgment of anybody almost in the world. Mr. Patterson. In other words, he was the greatest diplomatist and lobbyist of his age? Mr. Stewart. You do not say that engineers of renown and ability can be controlled by a man like De Lesseps ? Colonel Ludlow. I say Mr. De Lesseps was a man of most extraor- dinary faculty for dominating a man's judgment. Mr. Stewart. You do not think American engineers could be domi- nated in that way? Colonel Ludlow. I do not think so, not if you give them half a chance. Americans do not enthuse as the Frenchmen do. You get a Frenchman enthusiastic and you can convince him of almost anything. Mr. Stewart. Ihit an American long abroad and especially in France may participate in that enthusiasm? Colonel Ludlow. These things are racial; we are Anglo-Saxon and they are not. They are all riglit, but they made a beautiful mess at Panama. Enthusiasm does not take the place of hard work and preparation. Mr. DooLTTTLE. Was this gentleman, whose letter you have just read, down at Panama under Do Lesseps? Colonel Ludlow. lie is manager of the Panama Railway Company. Mr. Doohttle. Has he not to do with the Panama Canal? NICARAGUA CANAL. 2G3 Colonel Ludlow. He has iiotliing to do with the canal company. Mr. Patterson. He was before this committee in regard to another matter before you entered Congress. I kuo\7 him very well. Colonel Ludlow. He has been down there some nu.mber of years. Mr. Patterson. General Newton, of New York, was president of the Panama Kailroad Company and Colonel Rives was general manager. Mr. Doolittle. Do you say he has nothing to do with the Panama Canal Company? Mr. Patterson. No; he has no connection with it. Colonel Ludlow. That is perfectly true. Mr. Doolittle. I had snpi)osed he had. Colonel Ludlow. Being down there, he had naturally tlie interest of an engineer in the matter, and he spoke French very well, but had no business connections with this canal. His business was railroading. Panama Canal. — Unit price per cubic yard in United States currency. Atlantic level: Soft dredging Excavation between Locks 1 and 3 Harbor, Colon Dredging and enlarging existing canal Samiiiit level : Excavation (eartli and rock) Eartb excavation (to the west of slope Culebra). Rock-till dam Pacific level: Dredging in hard material Dredging large amount Dredging interior harbor Excavation, Locks 4 to 6 Diversion of Cbagres Kiver : I )redging in homogeneous material Locks : Tidal locks, excavation other locks, excavation Eives. $0.60 1.20 .60 .60 1.20 '3.06 .75 .75 1.35 1. 20 to 1. 35 1. 20 to 1. 35 Wyse. fO. 37i .60' .60 1.20 .90 .45 . 60 to 1 35 45 37J 60 1 88 1 50 Total cxcavatiou, 56,000 cubic meters, at an average price of 75 cents (by Wyse). $42,000,000 Rives's estimate : For six double locks 20,000,000 Rock fill 3 Railroad diversion per mile.. 375,000 Mr. Stewart. In view of this immense discrepancy in figures in the Atlantic level, do you consider these figures of Colonel Wyse and Mr. Rives of any value ? Colonel Ludlow. You notice it is in one special locality. There is Colon Harbor, for example, where Colonel Rives estimates GO cents, and so does Mr. Wyse, and the discrepancy disappears. These figures we found extraordinarily interesting and valual)le to us in our considera- tion of this subject, as they would be to anyone who had the same matter to consider. Now, I have a lot of data for the committee if they desire a further continuation of these notes. I have got through with this dredging. W^e took up the subject of earth excavation above water. Mr. Corliss. I suggest that if you do not want to personally examine him on every one of those items they had better be submitted. The Chairman. Without they would be useful in the way of answer- ing further interrogatories 1 Colonel Ludlow. I beg your pardon ? 2CA NICARAGUA CANAL. The Chairman. Perhaps the Colonel wants to go on with this ques- tion. Colonel Ludlow. We are endeavoring to clear up the basis of the estimates. Mr. Stewart. If the Colonel does not care to read further 1 should say he ought to have the privilege of printing with the stenographer's notes anything further he desires. Colonel Ludlow. This is for the information of the committee. Mr. Corliss. I think it ouglit to be printed. Mr. Patterson. As far as I am concerned it is an important subject, and I want to hear the Colonel discuss this subject, and along with it submit the data. The Chairman. I would like to ask, with reference to the figures you have used there, are we to understand those are prices paid, or simply estimates of Colonel Rives and jMr. Wyse"? Colonel Ludlow. They are estimates based upon a prolonged expe- rience on the Isthmus, and constitute the basis of their judgment of what this work will cost under physical conditions, which in several imi^ortaut respects are favorably comi)arable with those which exist at Nicaragua. The Chairman. Do you understand they were based upon prices which have been i^aid? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; because Colonel Eives. in his letter, refers to prices which have been paid in times i:)ast, and that is used as the basis of the judgment. He does not use the extravagant prices paid during the orgie of the Panama Canal. The Chairman. In referring more particularly to these estimates of Ivives and Wyse, were they based upon prices paid by the company, or were they simply their estimates, without any knowledge of what the actual cost would bo? Colonel Ludlow. They were based updn the fullest knowledge of what work of that kind had cost under different conditions in years past in connection with work down there done for both the canal and railroad, when he had close and accurate knowledge of what he had to pay for that work and what the labor was worth after he bought it. Mr. Doolittle. Tliis question you have somewhat covered, but nevertheless I will ask it. Actually, what minimum responsible price do you now think you could let this dredging for? If you could not let it for less than 25 cents, why could not the company hire competent men to build and operate the proper plant for 10 cents per cubic yard? Colonel Ludlow. That is a matter of business detail, and it does not seem to me to have anything to do with the estimated cost. We have expressed our judgment as to what that work will cost, and we have estimates of other people whom we regard as authorities, and who are inclined to i)ut a price higher on it than we did. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, if we found responsible contractors who would be willing to take that dredging down at Greytown and a similar char- acter of dredging along the line of the canal for 10 cents a yard, of course that would be a material saving? Colonel Ludlow. Of course. Mr. DoOLiTTLE. A very large saving in the total? Colonel Ludlow. Providing he did it at that price. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Provided, of course, that the work could be carried on at that figure? Colonel Ludlow. You would undoubtedly save half the estimated cost if you get it done at that price. NICARAGUA CANAL. 2fi5 Mr. DOOLITTLE. IS'ow, your estimate adds 20 per cent to the dredg- ing item. Simple sand, clay, etc, are known to exist. Why do you consider a contingency may transpire which would require this 20 per cent allowance ? If you have the field of material before you, and if you know the length of time which is going to be required to remove it, the cost of creating the plant and all the engineering, why should 20 per cent be added? Colonel Ludlow. I think I can answer that in a word. Experience has shown you have got to do it. With all the organized careful esti- mating that the English engineers were al)le to do on the total amount of work to be handled on their Mancliester Canal, the actual amount taken out was 19 per cent greater than the amount they estimated. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Nearly one-fifth greater? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; 1 per cent more would have been exactly one- fifth. Mr. Patterson. In other words, you follow the rule adopted by engineers of adding 20 per cent to the estimated cost? Colonel Ludlow. It depends upon the nature of the work. Some work you can estimate to within 5 or 10 per cent, but all these works of great magnitude, involving the handling of materials, and particu- larly when they have the complications due to water, it is not safe to use less than 20 to 25 per cent contingency. Mr. Stewart. In view of the miscalculations made by the engineers on the Manchester Canal that CQuld be avoided in estimating on the Nicaragua Canal, their experience would enrich the calculators on the Nicaragua Canal? Colonel Ludlow. It enriches the wisdom of the earth and guides the judgment of engineers, and when he has a formidable problem to solve ahead of him, the conditions of which it is impossible to ascertain, he puts on 19 or 20 jjer cent. Mr. Stewart. You say they made a 19 per cent mistake at Man- chester? Mr. Patterson. I do not understand Colonel Ludlow to say they made a mistake. Colonel Ludlow. I stated that the best estimate they could make for the total amount was less by 19 per cent. Mr. Stewart. Well, they were 19 per cent out of the way. Why could not the engineers of the Nicaragua Canal be 19 per cent in the way? Colonel Ludlow. We do; we add 19 per cent on, and so with every other enterprise. Mr. DooLiTTLE. When the ground is known, the price of plant, oi)eration, fuel, etc., cau be carefully figured in the light of modern analysis and methods, why do you need to add 20 per cent to such plain items? Is not your estimate for dredging, therefore, unnecessarily excessive? Colonel Ludlow. That is simply the whole ground all over again. How are you goin g to answer that question ? How would you answer it ? Mr. DooLiTTLE. I am not answering it; I am not an engineer. Colonel Ludlow. Will you read that again, slow like? Mr. DOOLITTLE. When the ground is known, the price of plant, operation, fuel, etc., can be carefully figured in the light of modern analysis and methods, why do you need to add 20 per cent to such plain items? Colonel Ludlow. The premises are extraordinary; nothing of the kind is known. 2fi6 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLiTTLE. And can not be to a skillful engineer'? Colonel Ludlow. Whether he is skillful or unskillful he does not know it. The more skillful he is the more he would not know about it. The more ignorant, the more confident he would be. Wisdom or skill does not necessarily make a man less cautious or prudent. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Mr. Sherman suggests, Why not place it at 24 cents instead of 25 cents? Colonel LiTDLOW. Because we thought 20 cents would do it. Mr. Sherman. You did not because you added on 20 per cenf? Colonel Ludlow. We did not want to increase this unit price above what we believed Avould be a very conservative and safe figure. As I have shown you, tlie contractors we consulted, and other gentlemen who know, gave figures if anything larger than ours, and I do not understand — Mr. Noble very properly calls my attention to the fact that this contingency is a general item applying to the whole work. There may be some portions of the work on which the contingency is excessive. There are unquestionably other portions of the work on which that contingency is very small, and in reference to that portion of the work would be extravagantly understated, where the contingency might run to 50 or 100 per cent. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Then the 20 per cent is rather in the way of an average f Colonel Ludlow. What else? We do not profess to know what the Ochoa Dam is going to cost. INIr. DOOLITTLE. So you threw in this 20 per cent to cover all inequalities? Colonel Ludlow. Yes. Mr. Patterson. Is it not true that Mr. Menocal in his estimate threw in 20 j)er cent? Colonel Ludlow. Perfectly true; sometimes 20 and sometimes 25. Mr. Patterson. I understand that is universal among engineers? Colonel Ludlow. In work of this kind. Mr. Patterson. And the difllculty in answering a question about it is if they knew all these things and knew how to answer all these things, knew how to analyze and get the ultimate analysis of every item of cost, there would be no necessity of the 20 per cent, but it is simply impossible, and so they add in the 20 per cent? Mr. Doolittle. So as to round uj) and make a good average? Colonel Ludlow. We have two typical works of this character. We have the Suez and the Manchester canals. Take the Manchester Canal. The Manchester Canal is provided for under Parliamentary authorization on the basis of .£0,000,000 for the engineer's construction estimate. I am speaking in round numbers. Six million pounds is $30,000,000 for 35i miles of canal. The incidental expenses of con- struction, overhead bridges, rights of -way, and compensation to private holdings, covering for centuries that land through which that canal went, increased tlie estimated cost of the project from £0,000,000, which was the engineer's estimate loosely stated, to £10,000,000 for which Parliament granted the authorization they procured. Now, the actual cube of excavation when they came to build it resulted in 10 per cent greater than the estimated cube, among other things because the river fioods came in and waslicd a whole lot of stuff in there after they had l)ainfully excavated it, and they had to do it over again. Disasters of that kind no man can anticipate. The actual ex]>eiiditures made on that canal are now rising — £15,- 000,000, or $75,000,000. Those are the actual outlays on an original NICARAGUA CANAL. 267 basis of $30,000,000, construction estimate, and the 150,000,000 basis, including outside expenses as well. There is an illustration of the Manchester Canal, executed in the heart of England and with the best engineering they knew how to get for it. What is the history of the Suez Canal, estimated at ^40,000,000? A canal which within ten years had cost $110,000,000 after they had very largely reduced the cross sections and dimensions of it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. There were very many elements included in the Suez Canal. Colonel Ludlow. There is the element of contingencies to be added on, which reached ultimately $110,000,000 — 250 per cent, instead of 20. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, I want to ask about the rock to be used in the construction of the jetty Avork. If the rock used for the puri)ose of constructing the jetty at the mouth of the Columbia lliver could be quarried and transported 110 miles and put in place on the jetty for$l per cubic yard, how do you justify the price of $1.50 per cubic yard for simidy transporting the rock material for the jetty 15 miles. I should like to know how that hai)pened? Colonel Ludlow. We have to open at the outset a special quarry, because you have to get to the eastern divide before you can begin to quarry it, and you have to get your harbor at the very outset long before you tackle that east divide. There would be two or three things before you can get rock out of the east divide. Mr. DOOLITTLE. The rock would be taken out of the divide? Colonel Ludlow. No. Mr. DOOLITTLE. To build the jetty rock work? Colonel Ludlow. No. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Where would you take it from? Colonel Ludlow. From a place near Lock No. 1, where there is a favorable place for a small quarry. Mr. DooLiTTLE. That would be in the way of the excavation upon the canal I Colonel Ludlow. No; that is j)ractically dead work, and the com- pany's figures now are about the same, exactly the same to the cent, I believe. There is no difference of opinion there. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Is it not contemplated in the company's plan that rock shall be taken out of the canal for the purpose of constructing these jetties? Colonel Ludlow. There is no lock in the canal Mr. DOOLITTLE. I mean in the cut. Colonel Ludlow. There is in the east divide ultimately, but you can not do that at the outset, and the painful necessity at the outset is that you must have a harbor. There is the great criticism and objection, if you choose, to that Nicaragua route, that there is no harbor there, you can not land anything. My. Doolittle. How would these conditions apply to the portions of the rock to be taken out of the rock cut? Colonel Ludlow. I think the company's price is about the same there. I think the canal company's price of 1805 is $1.50 and our price is $1.50. It has been $1.50 right along. We are very glad to have our figures the same. Mr. Doolittle. In view of this question where the rock was trans- ported a distance of 110 miles to the mouth of the Columbia Eiver Colonel Ludlow. It is impossible to transfer the whole conditions existing on the Pacific Coast in Washington down to the conditions existing on the Caribbean coast at Nicaragua and compare that mag- nificent climate and these illimitable resources up in that country. 268 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The resources in rock are a good deal nearer tlian 110 miles from the jetty? Colonel Ludlow. And there you have a lot of dagos and Jamaica negroes, and the climate you have to look out for. The whole thing is different. How much rainfall do you have in Washington? Mr. DooLiTTLE. One hundred and ten or 120 inches. Colonel Ludlow. And at Greytown they have 25 feet of water. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Annual rainfall? Colonel Ludlow. I mean in a year 25 feet of downfall of water. What is the height of that ceiling? About 18 feet, I should say. There is a body of water 50 per cent higher than this arch which you have to take account of in a year, and it rains every day. Down there, they say, it rains every day, and every other day it pours. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, a jjortion of the expense of taking this rock out is, of course, figured in in the estimate where it is taken out of the rock cut? Colonel Ludlow. I will just state one item, since this matter is broached. Two iuclies of rainfall in the ITnited States will drive a man oft" work, and down there you get three inches in an hour. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But still they continue to work right along? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; some of the men do; but how much work do you get out of them? That is one of the circumstances which depreciates the value of labor in that country. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Now, if a portion of the work be used in the con- struction of these jetties, is it not estimated for in the cutting of rock — that is, the quarryiug? Colonel Ludlow. That is the $1.50 charge? We have considered that that is an additional charge. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Apparently. Colonel Ludlow, We agreed with the company. Mr. DOOLITTLE, But should it be actually? Colonel Ludlow, We and the company agreed it should be. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I do not care about the company's agreement in this connection. Colonel Ludlow. Yes ; we say it ought to be done, or we would not have done it. Mr. DooLiTTLE. But you do not want to make a double charge for the same work ? Colonel Ludlow. Why not? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Why should you, if the material is cut at the rock cut — why should you charge for quarryiug, so far as you use it Colonel Ludlow. We do not charge for (piarrying. Mr. DooLiTTLE (continuing). So far as used in the jetties isconcerned? Colonel Ludlow. We charge for taking it from that point. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Then it is simply a matter of transportation and dumping? Colonel Ludlow. There is a certain amount of handling. The Chairman. I understood you to say the rock is to be used on the jetty before you reach the divide? Colonel Ludlow. A portion. I am perfectly willing to meet every question. These engineering matters are extremely interesting, and also improving. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I shall be very glad to be improved in this direction. Colonel Ludlow. I do not mean that, but they are i^leasant subjects of discussion. Mr. Doolittle. They are vastly interesting to me. NICARAGUA CANAL. 269 Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; and occasionally useful. If a piece of rock from the divide cnt after you iiave quarried it and paid 50 or 75 cents to the man to handle, you take and put on a car and deliver at a jetty 12 or 13 more miles away, you have got to bring it the length of that track and you have got to handle it down there. IIow are you going to get across the harbor to this jetty where you want to put this piece of rock? You have to build a trestle railroad across the lagoon to get out there. You have to have a])paratus on the pier to deliver the stone, you have to follow the construction out with your railroad construction. You have got all this expense. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Does not this estimate for quarrying rock for use on these jetties apply to rock to be used for this purpose in this esti- mate? I so understand the estimate. Colonel Ludlow. That it is a double charge on the quarrying; not in the least. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I say you charge for the rock in your estimated cost of the jetty just as though the rock was quarried for use on those jetties, do you not? Mr. Noble. You see that portion of the report where we say a part of the rock will have to be quarried because a part will have to be built before the divide cut is commenced. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I have not been able to understand the explana- tion. I will ask you again, if you do not charge for the quarrying of all the rock to be used on the jetties? Colonel Ludlow. 'No, sir. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What portion do you charge for? Colonel Ludlow. The preliminary part we use for the necessary pre- liminary construction of the jetty before you tackle the east divide at all. We have to open a quarry, and that is dead work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Can you readily state there the amount of work you charge for quarrying? Colonel Ludlow. I guess so. I think the quantities are stated here — no; I guess that is exactly what we did; we made a mistake there. I admit that. For the preliminary portion we did not separate it, and we ought to have charged an additional price. Mr. DOOLITTLE. And then for the other, you should not have charged for the quarrying? Colonel Ludlow. No; that remains just the same. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I do not so understand it. Colonel Ludlow. I understand it this way, that the $1.50 charged for the rock taken from the divide is not a dujdication of the original quarrying charge on that divide. At the outset we have to take rock, not from the divide, but from the quarry, which we have to open and which has nothing to do with the canal construction at all, and we made a mistake in including that with the other rock, which we are sui)- posed to haul from the divide. We have not added for a portion of this rock an extra charge for quarrying. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I will read this. Remembering that the cost of quarrying and putting on the car is already figured in the divide-cut estimate, why should it cost more than a cent a mile, or $15 a ton, to transmit this material from the rock cut to the jetty? It is merely a question of transportation and dumping when you get a place to dump on the jetty. Colonel Ludlow. Put it this way. How much do you pay for your rock on the divide? Eock excavation, $1.50, recently reduced to $1.25, and we put it at $1.75. What is the matter with charging $1.50 for putting on the jetty? 270 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLiTTLE. The question is, the actual expense of putting it on the jetty would be simply a matter of transportation, having your transportation line. Colonel LiDLOW. And handling of course, and a portion of the work is we have to open up a quarry, which is dead work. Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet at 10 a. m. Tuesday, May 5, 1896. May 5,1896. The committee met at 10.15 a. m., Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair. STATEMENT OF COL. WILLIAM LUDLOW— Continued. ]\[r. DooLiTTLE. Colonel Ludlow, after leaving Greytown how many days were the Board on the line of the canal! Colonel Ludlow. We were in and about the line of the canal from the time we arrived at Greytown until we left Nicaragua. I say that we were in and about on the line of the canal all the time, except when we made a trip to Managua. Mr. DooLiTTLE. How many days were consumed by the Board along the line of the canal after leaving Greytown? Colonel Ludlow. What do you mean by the "line of the canal!" Mr. DOOLITTLE. You have stated in your examination that you I)assed over the entire line of the canal. Colonel Ludlow. Ygs. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I ask you how many days were consumed after leav ing Greytown ! Colonel Ludlow. The minutes of the Board show where we were every day. I would refer to the oflicial records. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Are not you able to state how many days? Colonel Ludlow. No ; nor how many hours. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Ijust asked you about the days. Colonel Ludlow. From the time we arrived at Nicaragua until we left there was not a day, or part of a day, tliat we were not on or about the line of the canal, except when we went to Managua, and then we took in Lake Nicaragua. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Are not you able to state, from any data you have or from memory, how many days you spent along the line of this canal after your party left Greytown? Colonel Ludlow. With the exception of the trip we made to Mana- gua, we were on and about the line of tlie canal forty days. That is what we were there for. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How many days were you traveling over the route of the canal after leaving Greytown? Colonel Ludlow. I will get the minutes and read right off the record to you. That is important? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir; it is to me. Colonel Ludlow. We spent five weeks there, on and about the line of tlie canal and Lake Nicaragua all the time, in the investigation of the business we were down there to investigate. As to the actual num- ber of days we spent on the line of the canal — that is what I sup[)ose yon are trying to get at — 1 would ask if you consider the river a part of the canal? Mr. DoonTTLE. Yes, sir; throughout that portion of it that is to be a part of the canal. NICARAGUA CANAL. 271 Colonel Ludlow. Do you consider the lake a i)art of the canal! Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do not you? Colonel Ludlow. Part of the project, not of the canal. No; there is no canal work in the lake any more than at the construction of tlie Greytown Harbor. Mr. DooLiTTLB. I ask you a simple question: How many days were you on the canal? Colonel Ludlow. I will try to tell you by the record. I will read the minutes to you just as they were made up. There is only one way to tell the facts, and that is to tell them. Mr. Patterson. Have the minutes read through from beginning to end. Colonel Ludlow. If you want me, from memory, to say how much time was spent on the exact line of the canal, I will ask you, in tlie first place, to tell me what you mean by the line of the canal? Mr. DooLiTTLE. As an engineer, I supposed you would be better able to state what the line of the canal was than I, who am not an engi- neer, and have never visited the canal. Mr. PATTERSON. You uscd the term "line of the canal." While ho has a definite belief as to what the line of the canal would be, he simply differs from you as to what is embraced in that question. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Then along the company's projected line of the canal. Colonel Ludlow. Of the canal only? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Of the canal. Colonel Ludlow. Do you include Mr. DOOLITTLE. I include the whole passage from Greytown to Brito. Colonel Ludlow. Do you include in that the crest line of the embank- ments in the San Francisco basin? Mr. DOOLITTLE. I certainly do, for those are a portion of the com- pany's proposed route for the Nicaragua Canal. Colonel Ludlow. You are quite right, sir. -Mr. DOOLITTLE. Thank you. Colonel Ludlow. Then we are clear about that. That was our own interpretation of it. You will understand for a portion of the route, between the east divide and the Ochoa Dam and Kiver, there are two lines. One is the axis line of the canal and the other is the line of low hills where the San Francisco embankments are to be built — for the construction of these great basins. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Perhaps I can simplify the matter. Colonel Ludlow. I understand. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You did not at first and have not since. How long from the time you arrived at Greytown were you getting over to the Pacific — how long before you reached Brito, taking out the days you stopped for transportation? Colonel Ludlow. I will follow that up. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Can't you give the number of days without doing that? Mr. Patterson. I would suggest Mr. DOOLITTLE. I am asking the question, and would like to get the answer to the question. Colonel Ludlow. Eemember, this was last summer. We have made up our report on it, and it never occurred to us to figure up the time spent on this and the other portion of the route. We w^ere all the time engaged in this work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I am asking you how much time you were passing over the line of the canal '» 272 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. I say it never occurred to us to figure it up. I will figure it up for you, if it is of any value. Ml- DooLiTTLE. If you ]>lease. Colonel Ludlow. We landed at Grey town first. This seems to be a matter of considerable importance, and it is well to go definitely to the record. 1 will get it and read the minutes right through. We landed at Grey town on the 13lli of May; anchored off Greytown entrance at 12.30 p. m. ; landed that afternoon, and went to our quarters that night, after certain formalities with local authorities. Ou the 14th — the next day — a formal call was made on the governor. Mr. DooLTT'i'LE. You can omit that. State when you left Greytown to go to Brito. Colonel Ludlow. You do not want the first week, then? Mr. DooLiTTLE. Not at all. I am asking you about the length of time after you left Greytown. Colonel Ludlow. I am i)erfectly willing to give you the information. This is a sort of clerical work, not engineering. 1 am willing to do it, however, if it is any advantage to the committee. I will try to get away from Greytown. We spent the first week there investigating the harbor. We left May 21 on the river boat. We went u}* the river, examining the lower San Juan on the road, to its junction with the Colorado. This is up the main stem of the river — you can follow it up on the map there very well — stopping at 6 p. m. at Orans. At 8.30 tied up for the night to the right bank, below the mouth of the San Carlos. That is the first day's journey. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, can you state when you reached Brito? Colonel Ludlow. Certainly. You want to know that? I thought you wanted to know what we did. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I am not asking you what you did; simply the number of days you spent in traversing that isthmus. Colonel Ludlow. Well, we went up the river. We transferred three or four times at the various rapids. We traveled across the lake uj) to Managua, and back again to Kivas. On the morning after we arrived at Eivas we left early. Thursday, May 30, was spent in examining the Brito harbor and vicinity. Mr. DOOLITTLE. On May 30? Colonel Ludlow. If you will be good enough to make the necessary subtraction it will give yon the number of days spent in that i^ortion of the work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. How many days at Managua, and how many at Eivas? Colonel Ludlow. No days at Managua. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What time was consumed on the line of the pro- jected canal at this place, on your trij)? Colonel Ludlow. You mean Managua? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Ivivas, you say. Colonel Ludlow. Eivas is on the line — the immediate vicinity of the line — and the only stopi>ing i)lace for us. We had no other recourse. We left Fort San Carlos in the lake steamer Victoria with our entire party. Arrived 3.15 on the 26th of May. Now I have got it. On the 2Gth of May, at 11.30 p. m., we sailed across the lake ; started across the lake for San Jorge, which is in the immedate vicinity of the canal route and the only landing there. We arrived at San Jorge 9.20 a. m., Mon- day, May 27. We landed our party at 9.20 in the morning, and the board, as a board, together with Mr. Menocal, Dr. Stitt, and the secre- tary of the board, continued the voyage uj) the lake from San Jorge to . NICARAGUA CANAL. 273 Granada, and arrived at Granada at 3 p.m. A special train, by the courtesy of the Government, took the board to Managua, where we arrived at 8 p. m., taking quarters at the hotel, and went to bed. This was the 27th. The next morning at 9 a. m. we had a special audience with the President and members of his cabinet, and at 10.15 the special train returned the board to Granada, and at 11.30 a. m. the Victoria sailed again for San Jorge, down the lake, arriving at 6.40 p. m. of May 28. The board proceeded by tramway to Eivas and to quar- ters there which had been prepared for us in advance. While the board, as a board, was proceeding to the capital of the State to pay our respects to its President, the party were preparing, in the getting together of animals, freight carts for transportation, the construction of a camp, and other preparations for the examination of the western division, so that, so far as the time of the board was concerned, we lost nothing while the party was making preparations. The board arrived at Eivas on the evening of May 28, and on the morning of Wednesday, May 29, we left Eivas after breakfast, and pro- ceeded with the animals, etc., and most of the party, to the hacienda near Brito, which had been kindly loaned to the board by the owner, and where we were quartered for tlu night. We arrived there at 4.30 p. m. If I remember that is within 2 or 3 miles of Brito Harbor. We got there at 4.30 p. m., after rather a fatiguing journey in the hot sun. The next day. May 30, we occupied the entire day in inspecting Brito Harbor and vicinity, making very important and valuable obser- vations, as we believe, and if the committee will be good enough to read our report, I think that they will agree that we made good use of our time there. I have answered your question, sir; that is, from Greytown to Brito. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Now, when did you return to Greytown — on what date? Colonel Ludlow. I will tell you that presently. We arrived at Grey- town, going back on the evening of June 18, at 5 p. m., to be accurate, and immediately arranged there for the inspection of the Lower Colo- rado, of the junction, and the entrance. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Can not you tell from memory or easily from the data before you how many days you were traveling between May 30 and June 18 over the line of the canal"? Colonel Ludlow. How many days we were traveling! Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir. Colonel Ludlow. Between what points'? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Between Brito and Greytown. Colonel Ludlow. On the return journey"? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir; on the return journey. Colonel Ludlow. I can tell you that by telling what we did every day. It might be interesting, since our doings there have been so travestied. Why should not the committee know "? Mr. Corliss. Was not the date of the final arrival at Greytown the answer to thatf Colonel Ludlow. No; he seeks to know what we were doing in the interval. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I said, how many days were you making the actual journey between Brito and Greytown*? Colonel Ludlow. I have given you that. Mr. Patterson. I would like to have the minutes put in the record to give the facts. The Chairman. The Colonel will answer the question in his own way. N C 18 274 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. You will observe tlie minutes are a part of the record already aud oue of the appendixes of the report of the board. Mr. Patterson. I uuderstaud that; but what I mean by the record is your examination. Colonel Ludlow. I do not know any way to tell you except to run over it from Brito to Greytown, Mr. Doolittle. We took the entire day of May 30 inspecting the Brito Harbor and vicinity, and returned to our quarters at the hacienda. The next day, May 31, we examined the canal route up the Eio Grande Eiver, giving especial attention to the La Flor Dam, and camped at Paraiso, which is an intervening point, Avhere we had erected a subcamp for our accommodation between the La Flor Dam and the lake on the western division. We cami)ed at Paraiso. The next day we followed the canal line to the lake shore, examined the proposed site for the dam, etc., and at 4 p. m. left the lake shore for Eivas, where we arrived at 7. There were two days occupied on that western division route. On the 2d of June the party was engaged in taking levels and other measurements on the lake shore. We were now endeavoring to arrange for our return across the lake. Mr. Doolittle. Did you not go over all this matter, and these details, in your former statement to the committee 1 Colonel Ludlow. No. Mr. Doolittle. That is, about visiting the different points along the line of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. Not materially. Mr. Bennett. Mr. Endicott did that, Mr. Doolittle. Colonel Ludlow. I think Mr. Endicott went over that. Mr. Doolittle. Of course I do not care to take up the time of the committee in getting all these circumstances, inasmuch as it api)ears in the record. I thought you might be able to answer simply about the number of days. Colonel Ludlow. I understand, of course, by reason of the fact that the statement was made here that we only occupied fourteen days on the line of the canal. There is something in that. You can figure it fourteen days, or figure out ten days. We migbt not be inspecting the canal when we were inspecting the crest line, if you choose ; might not be inspecting the canal when we were inspecting the river. Perhaps you would exclude the time we were examining the lake; perhaps a visit to a quarry, where it was understood stone was to be otjtained, should be excluded from the days. There is a good deal of that sort of tiling. I suppose that our week at Greytown surveying the harbor and getting all the information we could about this was not on the line of the canal. It is admitted we spent a day at Brito examining the harbor, and that that day we were not on the line of the canal, when we come to construe it in that way. That is why I ask you what interiiretation you give to the words "the line of the canal." Do you mean the axis of the canal? In the San Francisco, and other basins the axis of the canal crosses deep basins — no excavating to be done. The engineering is on tbe crest line as much as two and a half miles from the liiie of the canal. Mr. Doolittle. It w^ould also be necessary to go there? Colonel Ludlow. On the axis of the canal? Along a large i)art of that is a swamj). We accepted the company's data as to that. We would say it was a swamp. Mr. Doolittle. Did you pass over the entire line of the canal? Colonel Ludlow. The whole axis of the canal proper? Surely not. There are places we could not get over. You can not get over the line from Greytown to the foothills, for exanqjle, because it runs through a swamp where no man can go. We took the railroad. NICARAGUA CANAL. 275 My. Doolittle. Above tlie swamp, did you go over the axis of the caual all the way from the foothills to the lake"? Colonel Ludlow. There are parts that are inaccessible. We went over the portion Avhich the company had been kind enough to clear away for us; and where there were two lines partly cleared the canal line had been almost wholly cleared, the crest line, which is, of course, the important critical line ; there was no need for us to abandon a critical engineering location to go to look at the bottom of a swamp that was to be filled with water 40 feet deep. We were not wasting our time there. Mr. Doolittle. With reference to the concrete work, you have figured out $9.50 \)er yard. Now, can you state the price at which cement can be delivered down there'? Colonel Ludlow. I will tell you all about it, sir, as far as we know, and we got the best and most authentic information we could. We got this information in order to save the time of the committee. We spent our own time in collecting it and getting it in shape, and I shall be very pleased if the information is of any value to the committee. It was of immense value to us. We reached over this country and Europe for information on this subject. I will read the notes we jirepared. Of course, this is not complete, but perhaps as much as you will need. The board's estimate for the cost of concrete is based on the follow- ing particulars: The price of cement was furnished by the New York agent of one of the principal German manufacturers. The agent wrote full particulars to Germany and had the reply cabled. The prices were $2.30 per barrel, f. o. b., Greytown, and $2.42, f. o. b., Brito. The board endeavored to make an estimate for unloading, lauding, transporting, and storing this material, with an allowance for the inevitable waste in that dansi) climate. You will understand there are no harbor facilities at either end. The result was that we adopted a unit i)rice of $2.G0 at the site of the work on either slope as the probable cost of the cement to be used in that concrete. Mr. Doolittle. Do you know what the i)rice of Portland cement is delivered in Chicago, or did you know at the time you made up this estimate? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, we had those prices, and we had the Govern- ment i)rice of cement from j)robably twenty points. Mr. Doolittle. Did you have a report of prices of cement delivered on the Pacitic Coast, around the Horn? Colonel Ludlow. Well, I got it direct from Government officers who had imported the cement. We didn't slight it. Mr. Doolittle. Have you that data right at hand? Colonel Ludlow. I supi)ose we have twenty figures for cement; whether we have it all here, I don't know. What was the price of cement on the Chicago drainage? (Addressing Mr. Noble.) Mr. Nolle. They are paying now from $2.25 to $2.85 for a good grade (^f imported i)ortland ceuient. Colonel Ludlow. The sand for the concrete is to be obtained from the beach in either case, for tlie eastern division from Greytown and for the western division from Brito. It must be hauled from there; it must be gatiiered, transported, and delivered where required. The estinuited cost at the site of the work is 55 cents per cubic yard on the eastern slope and 50 cents on the western slope. That figure includes collection, transportation, and delivery at the site of the work. That figure is not unreasonable. The cost of sand at St. Marys Falls Canal Lock has been somewhat more than 40 cents per cubic yard, all the con- 276 NICARAGUA CANAL. (litious being less expensive, the point of collection being nearer and the expense of handling considerably less. The board's estimate is very low, comparatively. The estimated cost of broken stones delivered at the site of the work is $1 on the Atlantic slope and 90 ceuts ou the Pacific slope. This includes the cost of sorting and loading the stone at the spoil banks, transporting it several miles to the site of the work, unloading, and crushing. The cost for the same item at the St. Marys Falls Canal has been between 80 and 90 cents. You will observe that we make what we believe to be an intelligent and proper discrimination between the cost of the work on the eastern division and the cost of the work on the western division in favor of the western division, a difference of 10 cents, on account of the more favoiable climatic and other con- ditions that exist there. At St. IMarys Falls the stone is obtained within 1,000 feet of the site and, as I said, cost between 80 and 90 cents per cubic yard. We did not believe that if it cost 80 and 90 cents at St. Marys Falls Canal it would cost less than 90 cents at Brito or $1 on the Greytown side. We may have made mistakes in these estimates, but the trouble is they are too low. Basing an estimate for a single cubic yard of concrete on the unit price of these three materials, and using the proportions specified to us by the comi)any as being those which tbey expected to use, viz, cement 1, sand 2, broken stone 5, we have the following tables of cost of the work : 1. Eastern division : 1.47b;irrels of cement, at $2.60 $3.82 0.36 cubic yards of sand, at 55 cents 20 0.91 cubic yards of stone, at $1 91 Timber forms (material and labor) 1. 00 Plant 50 Labor (mixing and placing) 1. 50 Total 7.93 Contractor's profit (20 per cent) 1.59 Cost for 1 cubic yard of concrete 9.52 Price adopted by the board 9.50 Mr. DooLiTTLE. You place the labor used in mixing and placing the concrete at $1.50. That would be by machinery, would it not? Colonel Ludlow. Surely ; it is done by hand, but in large quantities you must use machinery in order to get through, but some work can not be done by machinery. That is on the eastern division. Total, $7.93; contractor's profit, 20 per cent — making $9.52. Mr. DooLiTTLE. What was the last item? I didn't catch that. Colonel Ludlow. Contractor's i)rofit, 20 per cent. Now, if you please, we will look at the same subject in the western division. This is a very interesting subject, and you will observe we have no information from the company. There is not a word beyond the general propor- tions, not a word showing how that price they used was obtained. Mr. DOOLITTLE. The cost of cement is not made up for estimates for any such amount of work as this. Is that based on the total amount of cement to be used ? Colonel Ludlow. Our price for cement was quoted at a wholesale rate. Mr. Noble. A million barrels was put down as the auantity, and estimates made on that basis. Colonel Ludlow. The wholesale price is what we were after. We NICARAGUA CANAL. 277 were not buying two barrels. Now we come to the western division. Witlioiit reciting all of the particulars, the estimates of which run close to those for the eastern division, the cost of concrete on the Pacific side, including contractor's profit, adds uj) to $9.08, the eastern price being $9.52. The dilference in favor of the western division was due to the greater cost of cement being more than offset by the better climatic conditions on the Pacific side. The detailed estimate figures out $9.08. Tlie board adopted for the western division the price of $9, and the committee will observe that in both these cases we actually adopted as the unit price a figure less than the total of the detailed items in the estimate. In one case $9.52 became $9.50, in the other case $9.08 be- came $9. Now, what supplements this estimate or supports if? As stated in the report of the board, the cost of concrete of the same pro- l)ortions used in the locks of the Hennepin Canal, between Chicago and the Mississippi Eiver, was $9 per cubic yard. That is in this country. It is not far from Chicago, witli every resource for transportation at hand. This was done by liired labor, and includes no allowance for i^rofit; it was done by the Government. The cost is greater than the usual cost of concrete of these proportions in the United States, and is due to the great care and thoroughness with which the work was done. In connection with such important construction as is in question in this case — the construction of a lock of enormous magnitude almost exclu- sively of concrete — you can not cheapen your material; it is necessary to have the best you can get. This was on Government work, and it came to $9 a yard. We got this information from first hand. We do not believe that this estimate, although an unusually large one for the United States, can by any possibility be safely reduced for tlie totally different conditions, much more difficult, under which similar work must be done in Nicaragua. The cost of concrete of the same proportions under current contracts at the Brooklyn Navy- Yard in 1895-90 was $7.70 to $8.50 i)er cubic yard. Eeference has been umde to the low cost of concrete — $4.57 per cubic yard — in the locks of the Coosa Eiver. It will be interesting to note why this special case has been used by the company as a means of criticising the board's estimate, when the Brooklyn Navy- Yard figures were so much more accessible, and when the work done at the Brooklyn Navy- Yard is so much nearer compai-able to the other. It was smaller, and it was taken. In the locks in the Coosa River, in Alabama, referred to by the company, the low price is due, first, to the proportions used, which are 1 volume of cf^ment, 3 of sand (instead of 2), and 5^ of broken stone, instead of 5. You will observe that that proportion very much reduces the price of your cement, which is the expensive ingredient, and in doing that you have correspondingly diminished the strength of your concrete. That is one reason why that is cheaper. Second, the unusually low price of labor in that particular section of the South. It is in the heart of the pine region, and you can get labor, such as it is, for $1 a day. Third, the low cost of the staging and molds and the timberwork, the work being located in the heart of the Southern pine region, and the timber obtained from the vicinity suitable for the purpose. Another item is the omission of any charge for the use of plant. There is no charge for that, and if there were there is no profit in it. It is a Govern- numt job, and no contractor's profit. After you have added up these differences you will have the price quite conformable with the other. Furthermore, these locks were constructed in connection with navi- 278 NICARAGUA CANAL. gatioii on a river of inferior importance, and in no sense comparable to tlie tremendous constructions estimated for in Nicaragua. jSTow, there are other items. We brouglit together all the information we could; wrote out to California; we got the cost of the concrete in the San Mateo Dam in California. The cost of the concrete in that dam is $8. Mr. DooLiTTLE. At what time was that put in t Colonel Ludlow. I do not recall. Mr. Noble. AVithin the last few years; I do not remember the exact year. Colonel Ludlow. The San Mateo Dam, in California, a very large construction of concrete, cost, per cubic yard, $8, as I have said, the proportions used being 1 volume of cement, 2 volumes of sand, and G volumes of broken stone. The Letaloo Dam, in Australia, contains upward of 00,000 cubic yards of concrete, costing 110.16 per cubic yard, labor being $1.08 I)er day. The large amount of concrete used at the Cascade Locks, in Oregon, cost $8 per cubic yard, with no allowance for profit, the work being done directly by the Government. The proportions for a large part of this work were 1 volume of cement, 3 volumes of sand, and volumes of broken stone; for another large portion, 1 volume of cement, 4 vol- umes of s.md, and 8 volumes of stone. A small i)roportion of the total amount was composed of 1 volume of cement, 2 volumes of sand, and 4 volumes of broken stone, the average containing a smaller proportion of cement than is proposed for the Nicaragua Canal. The cost of concrete in San Francisco IIarl)or, in ])roportions of 1, 3, and 8, was $5.22, with no allowance for plant or profit. This concrete contained, relatively, a snmll proportion of cement. Now, we will take, if you please, the contract price for concrete recently made at the Port Eoyal dry dock, on the Atlantic Coast. The proportions are 1, 2, and 5, the same as you are considering. Wlmt was the price? Eight dollars a cubic yard. Mr. Doolittle. That is the actual cost? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; the actual cost. Now, at the Puget Sound dry dock the proportions are 1, 2, and 4, where gravel is used instead of broken stone, a material which may be regarded as some- what inferior to broken stone, the cost is $7 per cubic yard. Mr. Doolittle. That is the contractor's price, is it not? Colonel Ludlow. It is the price the Government has to pay to get it done. Mr. Doolittle. It is the contractor's price? Colonel Ludlow. I presume it is a contract matter there. Mr. Doolittle. Yes; I know that particular case myself. Colonel Ltidlow. Then that is all straight, it is $7 a yard. The contractor is going to charge a profit. Mr. Doolittle. That cement is brought around the Horn? Colonel Ludlow. I imagine you can get it cheaper there almost than you can on the Atlantic Coast, for some reasons. I know, as a matter of fact, by looking over the subject, that a ship in going to San Francisco, or some port on the Pacific Coast, brought with her as ballast a lot ot cement and disposed of it at a very low figure, thereby lessening the expenses of her voyage. Mr. Doolittle. I would observe right here that these contractors made an exceedingly handsome profit. Colonel Ludlow. I am glad they made something. They do not always. You would not have them lose? NICARAGUA CANAL. 279 Mr. DooLiTTLE. Not being warm friends of mine, I would not. Colonel Ludlow. As a matter of fact, every employer of labor, such as an engineer or Government officer, dislikes it extremely if tbex)rices are let so low that the contractor is going to lose money on the job. In such a case he requires too much looking after. We would rather he would have a reasonable profit, as the temptation then is not so great to cut corners off. In connection with the $7 concrete at the Puget Sound dry dock, some of it cost $9.90, where it was difiticalt to handle, and in a very higli i^roportion of 1, IJ, and 3 the cost was actually $13.58 per cubic yard. At the New York dry dock (contract of 1890), the proportion being 1, 3, and 5, the contract price was $9 per cubic yard. That was in New York. What should it then be in Nicaragua? We said we would call it $9.50 there, because we believed witli due econouiy and manage- ment and intelligent business arrangements it can be done at that price, but we won't be sure of it. Under the contracts of 1805 the Brooklyn price averaged about $7.70 per cubic yard, and in 189G the work whicli is now being executed under the direction of the civil engi- neer of tlie Navy, who is iu charge of that work, and really ought to know something about it, Mr. Menocal, the price i^ about $8.50 per cubic yard. Tlie proportions in both cases being 1, 2, and 5, the same material that is in question in this case. That seems to me to be all the data v.e have on this question. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Then I would hke to ask you a further question. I see that for back filling you charge 70 cents per cubic yard. Now, I want to ask you how it is this filling would cost that much when the earth has been removed in the cut and the excavations made? Colonel IjUDLOAV. Why, it is for putting the material back and solidifying it. Mr. booLiTTLE. That is, with modern appliances and every facility in the way of transportation, and all that? Colonel Ludlow. Always with the very latest methods, yes, sir; utilizing electricity even if found advisable. The material has to be filled in" behind these walls and there solidified for the safety of the lock construction. It is not invidious, but if you will look at the estimates of the canal company you will fiud no estimate for that. They do not expect to back fill it, or else they expect someone to do it for nothing. Mr. DOOLITTLE. What could responsible cou tractors be engaged for in this country to do that kind of work when the excavation was going on and the materials are being loaded on cars, and when the transport- ing of it is a simple matter? Colonel Ludlow. You know back filling goes in after you get your lock built. You can not do the back filling while you are making the excavation. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But I mean elsewhere — in that immediate vicinity, as a good manager of such work would carry it on, to the best advantage? Colonel Ludlow. He would naturally use the material he took out, but he would have to take it out first. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But there is other cutting going on in that imme- diate vicinity. Colonel Ludlow. In the lock? Mr, DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir; in the immediate vicinity of the lock. Oi course 1 understand in organizing a work you would organize it to use the material most advantageously. Colonel Ludlow. If I am not mistaken I think 1 have some notes on 2S0 NICARAGUA CANAL. that. Yon can nndorstand ho\Y difficult it is to go into all these details here which we had to construct for ourselves. Seventy cents is a very good price; I mean it is a fair price to take. There is no (luestion about it that our prices are all low. INIr. DooLiTTLB. Leaving a good, big margin, would it not, for contractors'? Colonel Ludlow. About 20 per cent. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Do not you think this kind of work could be per- formed, under a well-organized scheme, in this country very much cheaper ? Colonel Ludlow. I think so; yes. Mr. DooLiTTLE. For half the money or less? Colonel Ludlow. It depends on the circumstances — the facilities for handling the material. You have not the facilities there except what you create, and the cost of creation has got to go in the unit price. ]Mr. DOOLITTLE. But this construction and its organizing contem- plates all that. Colonel Ludlow. Yes; the creation of these facilities; but who is going to pay for them, the company or the contractors'? Who is going to pay for if? Y^ou can not eliminate an item of cost by saying the con- tractor is going to do it. Is he going to charge you for it? And here is an important point: When you sandpaper these things down, the conditions down there are practically unknown. There is not a con- tractor, with the possible exception of Mr. Treat, who understands the conditions there. Mr. DOOLITTLE. You regard him as comiietenf? Colonel Ludlow. Perfectly, on all these subjects which he has inves- tigated and expresses an opinion on. I mean his own opinion, mind you, what he knows from personal knowledge, not as he is quoted. Take his own statement of what he thinks. Independent of that, what 1 want to say is this, that the extravagance of the work comes in when you are unable to define the condition so accurately that the contractor shall know what he is to do, and see in his own mind how he is going to do it. The more uncertainty you leave about the work, and how it shall be handled, the more the contractor is going to charge you for it, and he is going to charge you for the risk. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Those elements of risk would be eliminated, would they not, so far as the minds of the contractors were concerned, before the contract was taken or the work undertaken "? Colonel Ludlow. You say they will be eliminated. How*? By infor- mation from the company? No such information exists. By personal experience of the contractor'? Who is he'? Mr. DOOLITTLE. You would somewhat have it eliminated by carrying out a line of detailed surveys? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, surveys; always surveys. I would get the information, Mr. Doolittle, that is necessary to have to enable the con- tractor to bid intelligently on his work ; that is, on the actual statement of the situation as it has been found to be. Mr. Doolittle. Would. not the contractor inform himself? Colonel Ludlow. We want him to do it. If he would not, he would be unwise. Mr. Doolittle. Do you think any contractor would rely implicitly and exclusively on the estimates given him by the engineer of the Government? Colonel Ludlow. On the estimates — the statements of fact. That is what they do every day in this country, because, as a rule, the Gov- NICARAGUA CANAL. 281 eminent in works of this class malcos as exhanstive an examination as tliey are able to make. Mind you, no contractor can go down tliere and take a contract to make tliat 3-mile cut. Mr. UooLiTTLE. Is not it usual for contractors, before entering upon a work of this kind, to have these details ascertained by their own engineers? Colonel Ludlow. In advance? Mr. DooLiTTLE. In advance of taking the contracts. Colonel Ludlow. Not always. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Is it not usually? Colonel Ludlow. ISTo; not necessarily. If it were a question of dredging a harbor or deepening a river channel, or making a 21-foot channel on the lakes where milhons of cubic yards have to be exca- A^ated, the Government ascertains the quantity of the several kinds of material there and then shows the contractor the drawings and states to him what is there. Then the contractor bids. He does not make borings. He accepts the data that the Grovernment furnishes. If you want a contractor to bid on the construction of that eastern divide, a 3-mile cut through a rocky range, you do not exi)ect him to make bor- ings there, which would take him iierhaps a year to execute, at his own expense, and costing him probably thousands and thousands of dollars. It is your business to furnish to him that information wliich he can not readily obtain. Supplementing that, suppose that he goes down to Nicaragua and stands out there in a 3-inch shower and thereby sees what effect such a rain would have on a gang of workmen in a pit with the water up to their necks and how much itw^ould cost to have the necessary pumping arrangements to keep them from drowning. He is going to look after the construction of railroad and tracks. He is going to have his pump- ing apparatus provided for, make provision for his hospitals and where they will be and how accessible to the work, and he is going to get his provisions and tools. That is the kind of work he is going to do; but we would not expect him to bore for 300 or 400 feet through that mountain range there to ascertain the nature of the material. He expects to be told that. Suppose you want to make a contract to bridge the San Juan liiver, to make a channel in the San Juan River for the 30 miles of it Mr. DOOLITTLE. I suppose in a case of that kind you would be gov- erned by tlie character of material as it turned out to be? Colonel Ludlow. As it turned out to be. The provision is different according to the different material. If there is a very large quantity of rock he is going to have a very large quantity of rock-drilling plant, but if there is a large quantity of soft material and little rock he might make shift to take out that rock, and his principal arrangement and l)]ant would be to take out this softer material. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Now, I think we have gone over this pretty thor- oughly. I would like to ask you a question or two more on a different matter. Will you kindly state to the committee when you began this engineering work in a practical way? I do not think you had an oppor- tunity to go over that when you made your first statement. Colonel Ludlow. What engineering work I have done? I was grad- uated in the corps of engineers in June, 1864, from West Point, and I was commissioned at that time. You want the uneventful history? How far back shall I go ? Mr. DOOLITTLE. At the beginning. Colonel Ludlow. I was born on the 27th of November, 1843. 282 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Oil, no. Colonel Ludlow. Tlie hour I can not give yon. Mr. DooLiTTLB. Did you begin engineering work tlieul Colonel Ludlow. I do not remember. It's a long time ago. Ou that point my information is secondliand. I am assured, however, that it was a fact I began then. INIr. DooLiTTLE. I do not know what it was Colonel Ludlow. I presume it was some form of hydraulics. I have no doubt I engaged in the ])umping business then and have been in it ever since. Since then I have put suction dredges to work ou ocean bars. IMr. DOOLITTLE. Is that an answer to the question? Colonel Ludlow. Perfectly. I would much rather that you would get it from the Adjutant-General's record. It would be much more com- plimentary than my record, as I would give it. What do you want me to tell you about — my engineering experience? Mr. DOOLITTLE. Yes, sir. Colonel Ludlow. Well, I was doing a little engineering during the war — military engineering — mounting guns, building bridges, batteries, and defenses. You do not wanttliat, do you i? You might have to use it down in Nicaragua, but it is not included in the programme. After the war I was in command of an engineer company at Jefferson Bar- racks, and was practicing them as engineers in engineering work of various kinds, more particularly, of course, in military engineering and the construction of bridges. I do not remember all I did. I wish I had the record. I have been pretty busy, in a general way. After that I was ordered East as assistant to General Gilmore, a very eminent engineer and engineer officer, and was his assistant for five years in charge of fortification work and river and harbor improvement work, jiarticularly through the South Atlantic from St. Augustine, on the (joast of Florida, through Georgia, South Carolina, and part of JSTorth Carolina, and particularly in New York Harbor fortification work and river and harbor work at that time. I got together this hydraulic dredge, as Mr. Bates will tell you. It is quite interesting. I spent a summer in getting it together. It was used on the bar at St. Johns, Fla., for the first time. We were able to dredge off an ocean bar there at a less price than for still-water dredging. I was with General Gil- more five years, surveying and planning various harbors and other work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. If you will just state your engineering experience Colonel Ludlow. You see, it has been pretty much all the time engi- neering experience with me. For three years 1 was in Dakota on extensive reconnoissance work. Mr. DOOLITTLE. For what purpose? Colonel Ludlow. The development of the country. I was with General Custer on an expedition to the Black Hills, on General Terry's staff. I was the engineer of the Stanley expedition, locating sites; among other things, locating the present site of the crossing of the Yellowstone Eiver at the Northern Pacific Railroad. That w^as simply incidental. I was engaged in finding latitude and longitude and that sort of work. Later, F was ordered b^ast, to Philadelphia, and was first assistant to Colonel Kurtz, of the Engineers, on the improvement of Delaware River and the construction of -works in that distii(;t, including the pier at the entrance to Delaware Bay, and incidentally a survey which I made myself— a boat survey — of the greater portion of the Delaware River, from Trenton down. NICARAGUA CANAL. 283 Later, I was in charge of the work myself. Then 1 was transferred to AN^ashiugtou for the lirst time as the engineer secretary of the Light- Honse Board, and had charge of matters of lighthouse construction which wore going on under the direction of the LightHouse Establish- ment. Then, later than that, I was for three years in charge of the Phihidelphia water department, by a remarkable combination of circum- stances, in which the city councils of Philadelphia elected me to that position, and by virtue of a joint resolution of Congress, which is with- out precedent. 1 was authorized to accept the place without the loss of my commission, and the War Department gave me three years' leave of absence enabling me to discharge the duties of the place. When that tliree years was up, my leave of absence havin.g expired, 1 came to W ashington. I was two years Engineer Commissioner of the District of Columbia, and then for a short time I was in charge of the light- house district in Philadelphia. Then for five years 1 was in Detroit, where I had charge of all the light-house work in the upper lakes north and west of Detroit, and also a number of lake harbors in Lake IMicliigan and Lake Huron. Then I was sent to London as military attache of the embassy, and while there was detailed to come here, and was sent to Nicaragua with two other gentlemen to investigate this interevSting Nicaragua Canal project. Then, having returned to London, I received instructions to make an investigation of tlie European ship canals, and later was instructed to return to this country and report to the Adjutant-Ocneral and Chief Engineer. Now I am trying to obey those orders and report at my station at Tompkinsville, N. Y., as engineer of the Tliird ligiit-house district and with other engineering work in that vicinity. Meanwhile, I am discussing engineering points here. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I think that is all I care to ask the Colonel. Mr. Pattetjson. I have no cpiestious to ask. The Chairman. Does any other member of the committee desire to ask any questions? Colonel Ludlow. If there are no questions, there is a large amount of valuable information I have here which I would be glad to give to the committee on the subject of unit i)rices. In connec^tion with the rock for the breakwater pier at Greytowu which we had under consid- eration yesterday and j\Ir. Doolittle asked some questions about, I may state that $1.50 was the price for the delivery of that rock into the Grey- town pier. We did not go closely into a computation of that kind; I admit we did not figure it up item by item, as we did other things, because it was a comparatively small thing. Furthermore, we found that we were prepared to accept the company's own estimate of the cost of that work, and, inasmuch as the company has not been accused of unduly expanding its items of cost, we iDeiieve that we would not be guilt::- of any extravagance in accei)ting their figures. Shall I proceed \vil!i the discussion of the unit prices? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Colonel Ludlow. The subject of earth excavation above water is a diffuult matter. There is a very large quantity of that. The Chairman. Would you be willing to submit that and have it ])riuted with your testimony, or do you prefer to read it? Colonel Ludlow. I really do not care about reading it. It is all of the same nature. The only object in reading it would be to let the com- mittee see that there is not any source of information open to us that we did not draw upon, from Dan to Beersheba, from London to San Francisco, sending even to India to get treatises on the construction of dams there, all of which is extremely interesting. 284 NICARAGUA CANAL. Those India dams have no resemblance to this Ochoa Dam, as the illustrations will show, if you care to look at them. We wanted to know about the history of rock-filled dams, and we scoured the country for information on that subject. That is the way we investigated this matter, and the records show the attempts we made to get from every source information that was authentic. Now, I have here drawings of rock-filled dams in the West, which would be interesting to anybody to examine. They are cross sections, showing how they were built in the dry — built on rock foundations, with plank sheathing on the front; built of concrete cores on solid rock, with sheet-steel cores, and built with crib work. The drawings are very interesting. I will arrange to leave them for the use of the committee, if they desire to examine them; and I have also a roll of drawings of the Nicaragua Canal, showing the half dozen maps of Grey town Harbor, all of which are extremely inter- esting and running over the whole route of the canal from Grey town to Brito. We have all that complete. Mr. Patterson. These maps were constructed by the board? Colonel Ludlow. They were made in the board's office in New York. Mr. Patterson. Under the supervision of the board? Colonel Ludlow. They are mainly taken as transcripts from the maps in the canal company's office. That was our main source of informa- tion, you know, but there are some things which were quite original with us. For example, the survey of Greytown Harbor. That is new and complete. We could not have done it ourselves. We had no time, but the officers of the U. S. S. Aloitf/omeri/j in accordance with the in- structions of the Secretary of War, made the offshore part of the work after we gave them their base line to start from. They did the boat work afterwards. That map of Greytown Harbor is the most com- plete ever made. Mr. Patterson. I would like to ask if it is the purpose of the board to submit all these details to the committee? Colonel Ludlow. It has been, sir. This is part of the matter sub- mitted to the President in our report. It is i^art of the official record. This is only a retained copy I kept for my own use, the originals having been turned in. Mr. Patterson. And with the Public Printer at this time. Mr. Bartlett. Does that include the paper you are about to read now? Colonel Ludlow. Oh, no, sir; this paper was specially prepared for the use of this committee. Mr. Patterson. You have spoken of your experience as an engi- neer. Lieutenant Endicott, I believe, belongs to the Navy? Colonel Ludlow. I believe he is the senior officer in his corps of the Navy. Mr. Patterson. What is his standing as engineer? Colonel Ludlow. I am not familiar with the detailed history of the civil engineers in the Navy, but the mere fact that he is their senior officer, and detailed at Washington itself, at the headqujirters in the Department, is a sufficient indication of the consideration which attaches to him in the Navy Department. Mr. Patterson. He is the senior engineer in the service? Mr. Endicott. A.8 far as detail goes. There is one senior to me on the list in date of appointment. Mr. Patterson. You have represented, and do now represent, no other interest except the public service in this matter? Colonel Ludlow. Yes, sir; and the general engineering interest of the country. We had no other object in view. NICARAGUA CANAL. 285 Mr. Patterson. Have no interest eitlicr iu tlie canal or against the canal ? Colonel Ludlow. What kind of interest? Mr. Patterson. Personal interest? Colonel Ludlow. ISTotliing except as a professional investigator; notliing except as an engineer. I have no pecuniary or commercial interest of any Icincl. My j)redilection, as I have told the committee, is entirely favorable to the project, you understand. I would like to see the American engineers have a chance to show what they can do toward building a ship canal. The Frenchmen and the Englishmen and the Germans have all had a chance, and now I would like to see what the American engineers can do. Thereupon the committee took a recess until 2 p. m. The committee met pursuant to adjournment, at 2 j). m., Hon. Wil- liam P. Hej)burn in the chair. STATEMENT OF HON. WARNER MILLER. Mr. Miller. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, 1 should not have asked to be heard again upon this question had it not been that several statements that I made when I was last here have been called in question by Colonel Ludlow, particularly my statement in regard to Mr. Treat's offer to build the entire canal, and also the state- ment that I made in regard to Engineer Donaldson, of London, and also some other matters which I had stated in regard to the prospective cost of this work. I assumed that my mere statement of what those gentlemen had told me and had done would be accepted by the mem- bers of this committee, who know me personally, without any further proof, but as the truth of my statement has been called in question I have come here to-day, I think, fully prei^ared to prove the truth of what I stated when I was last here. Before proceeding to the documentary evidence which I have, I have a few words to say in regard to what I have heard since I have been here for two days and what I have heard of the statement as given by Colonel Ludlow. Before yesterday I had assumed that engineering was an exact science, as much so as any science could possibly be, but if the statement made here yesterday as to the methods by which the estimates were arrived at in the matter before the committee, and also in regard to other great works throughout the world, then the science of engineering becomes chiefly a science of guessing, and the engineer- ing schools at West Point and elsewhere ought to be designated " schools for the teaching of skillful guessing." If that be true, then, Mr. Chairman, I think I am just as comi)etent a guesser as anybody else. One of the first things I ever did to make money was to reconstruct a damaged canal. There Avas no engineer in that part of the country, and I went over it and made a guess as to what it would cost and made a bid on it. The bid was accepted, and I completed the work and made a very handsome sum of money. I have been successful thus far in life in making close guesses as to building mills, hydraulics, dams, and that sort of thing. But, Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that the science of engineering is mere guesswork. Now, what are the facts *? A company properly organized sent out a corps of engineers to make surveys and examina- tions in Nicaragua. They spent a greater part of the time for three or four years engaged in that work. The comj^any never claimed that all the engineering work was done and that nothing more was to be known, 286 NICARAGUA CANAL. for everybody knows tbat iu the construction of a great work like tliat the engiueerini:-, after the plans are made, is one of the great items of expense, continuing through the entire work. But the company thought that they had obtained information enough to enable them to make a close estimate of what the work would cost, and also to present plans which when submitted to competent engineers would meet with their approval, and it was this work in which the company engaged for sev- eral years before it began any construction whatever. It did submit these plans to several engineers, as I have stated here before, and they were approved. The action of the Government in regard to this matter I need not go over again, because 1 went over that very lully at my last hearing. Some enemies of the enterprise and some of its friends thought it wise to have a further investigation by a commission of engineers, and for that purpose they appropriated $L>0,00() and authorized the President to appoint them and send tbem down. lie did so. The company met the commission with perfect frankness and spent nearly $20,000 in putting the work in sha])e so it could be examined by this commission, and turned over to them all the data that they asked for that we had, and in every way undertook to aid the coumiission in its work. The result you have before you in a report, of which I need not speak and will not. In many things I agree with it and in some things I do not. But it has fallen to the lot of Colonel Ludlow, who is chairman of this commission, to come here before this committee and state substantially in terms repeatedly that what we had done was worthless; that there was not sullicient information or data upon which to form any idea as to what this work would cost, and to further pronounce the plans of the company absolutely impracticable. With that statement before us, of course it behooves both the chief engineer of tlie work, who has given the better part of his life to it, and myself, who was president of the company during all those years, to say whether this report can be veri- fied by any facts, if not by this investigation of the comx)any, by any facts obtained by the commission itself. First, the connuission tells us that there is not sufflcient data upon which to make any estimate of the cost of this work, and then they proceed to make a detailed estimate, going into details of all kinds, and they find it will cost a specified sum — I believe 133,000,300 and some odd dollars. By what process of reasoning or logic this was arrived at without any data I do not know. Colonel Ludlow has told you repeat- edly they went through the country, looked at the line of the canal, and did substantially no engineering work except to take a few levels upon the lake and upon the river, and that the oflicers of the steamship Montgomery made a survey of Greytown Harbor; but certainly there was no attempt to verify the findings of the company by actual work in the field to determine whether our lines were correct or not, to determine M'hether there was a mistake of a foot in the levels between Greytown and Ochoa Dam, as Colonel Ludlow stated yesterday. As to that, I will leave that for our chief engineer to answer. It was rather gratuitous, I think, to call in question the truth of the stat-e- ments I made or to say in a most positive manner that no other engi- neers had ever been over the line of this canal save these three commissioners. That was a statement no man could make positively, because there could be no proof of it whatever. No man has been there all the time during all the years that Mr. Menocal has been there, and no man could make any such statement as that with any truth; but when asked to tell who gave him this information we find it comes NICARAGUA CANAL. 287 from a discredited employee of the company wlio 1 myself relieved from authority and turned out of the comi)any when we found that while in our service in Nicaragua he had undertaken to seize the property of the company, and brought suits in the courts in Nicaragua, where he was finally defeated because his claims were fraudulent. The Commission did not ask me or anyone in the company to give them the names of any competent engineers on this work, but they took this man — they say the first that offered. If tliey did not know his character, they could have found it out. They did not come to me to find it out. Miijor Davis, one of the best officers in the Army of the United States to day, in the Secretary of War's office The CnAiKMAN. Please give his initials. Mr. Miller, ]\[aj. George W. Davis. All the time I was there he was the general manager and had to do with these men and knew them. If a brother officer asked him about the character of a man in the employ of the company, he would have found it. I do not attempt to say that this Commission deliberately selected this man, knowing his relation to the C()m])an3', or held correspondence with other men who had been discharged, l)ut it is a fact that they did, and then to put the statement of the jiresident and chief engineer of the company against this man is hardly in keeping, sir, it seems to me, with the proper con- duct of an army oiBcer. However that may be, certainly it is not in keeping with common decency among gentlemen. That brings me here to prove the truth of the statements that I have made. Now, fortunately. Colonel Ludlow has spoken in the highest terms of Mr. Treat. I am sorry Mr. Treat is not here. When I came to Wash- ington and heard that the statements that I had made had been called in (]uestion I telegraphed to Mr. Treat in Chicago, asking him to come on here, and he replied that he could not possibly do so, as he had important business engagements in California and was to leave that niglit. What he said in regard to this matter, however, I shall read when I come to it, at the proper time. Mr. Treat, some years ago at the beginning of this enterprise, had his attention called to it — I know not how — but he went to Nicaragua and spent several months, I think, in making investigation of the country, the people, the climate, and conditions along the line where the canal would have to be built. He then came home and when the company began to talk of commencing work Mr. Treat brought himself in communication with the company upon a i)roposition that he would undertake to do some of the work. The company was not in funds to undertake large contracts at that time, but we had, under our concessions, to expend $2,000,000 during the first year, in order to hold the concessions, and I proposed, as one of the first things to do, to build a railroad from Greytown into the interior, into the foothills, in order that we might arrive at the Great Divide and at the locks, because the length of time it would take to excavate the divide cut would determine the length of time it would take to build the canal. Tbe difficulties of building that railroad I have expressed in my former statement here. Suffice it to say that Mr. Treat consented to go down and build that railroad, he himself furnishing the skill and ability and the company all the labor and material, and he to receive the 10 per cent for carrying it through. He did so, and with great suc- cess, and built the road for a little more than half of the estimate of our own engineer. After he had returned to New York, and we were considering the question of raising funds in a large way by a probable issue of bonds, I asked Mr. Treat to write me a statement as to the 288 NICARAGUA CANAL. general condition of affairs down tliere and his ideas of tlie conntry and of the ability to do work and everything, in order that I might have it to show to bankers and other people who might be interested in it. I prox)ose to read this letter first : 22 East Seventy-eighth Street, Netv York, February 27, 1S92. Hon. Warner Miller, President Nicaragua Canal Company, 44 Wall Street, New Yoric, Dear Sir: Coucerning the cost of the Nicaragua Canal, if built by intelligent and experienced contractors and engineers, there is not nntch that I care to say, as the ground has been so fully covered by the engineers' reports and estimates. Most of the special difficulties, as well as facilities of construction, will occur to anyone experienced in doing heavy work who goes carefully over the canal line; and almost anyone will certainly be surprised at the absence, to a degree, of so much of the difficulty expected in tropical countries. This is especially true of the Pacific division of the canal, but it is also true, to a less degree, of the Atlantic division. As you know, I do not speak of this without some knowledge, having been in Nicaragua at all seasons of the year and knowing the route of the canal thoroughly. One of the common causes of the difficulty and expense of building heavy public works in the Tropics is the ill health of the countries and the Sickness and high death rate among the workmen. This cause is almost wholly absent in Nicaragua, and in this respect I believe the eastern end of the canal may have an advantage over the western end. The northeast trade wind, which blows nearly all the year, is stronger and fresher along the line of the canal from San Juan del Norte, through the notch in the mountains over which the line runs, and on to Ochoa, than it is west of Lake Nicaragua. But I believe all people acquainted with the country along the canal line from the lake to Brito, on the Pacific, consider it healthful. There can hardly be much dis- agreement as to that. No part of Nicaragua near the canal line has ever been subject to epidemics. My own experience in building the railroad for you from the harbor at San 9uan del Norte, 10 miles across the swamps to the higher ground beyond, is proof of the healthfulness of the country along that part of the line. There can scarcely be a more unhealthful piece of work during the construction of the entire canal than that was. More than half of the men employed worked in the swamp in water from their knees to their shoulders, ten hours a day, doing hard work and not always having quite the proper food, which can constantly be had after the canal work is fairly started. And yet, out of about 1,000 laborers employed for seven months, only two died of disease. The men worked steadily. Every morning they commenced at 6 o'clock and, except one hour from 11 till 12, they worked till 5 in the afternoon. They then had some daylight still remaining to wash their clothes, bathe, etc. They did not stop for rain, but worked steadily through the rainy season without protection while at work, all the time during the seven months except two half days. There was malarial sickness ; it could hardly be otherwise, but there was nothing, except the two cases mentioned, which was not cured in a week or so by rest and the proper medicines. At the end of the seven months the men generally were in as good health as at the beginning. They were mostly Jamaica negroes. There were from 200 to 300 native Nicaragnans and Costa Ricans, and a few negroes from the United States and from several of the West India and Windward islands. I believe the matter of health, as afl:'ecting the difficulty and cost of construction of the canal, need hardly be considered more than in estimating the cost of work in almost any part of the United States. The labor supply will be one of the first things to be considered by anyone under- taking the work or a part of it. I can speak with some intelligence concerning that also, one reason for my undertaking to build the short railroad across the swamp having been my desire to study the health of the country and the question of the supply of labor for the construction of the canal. I am satisfied that a constant force of 10,000 to 15,000 men or more can be kept on the eastern end of the work from the island of Jamaica alone. Those men are good at task work and are fairly good in large gangs under foremen. A small number of engine drivers, excavators, and steam drill men, etc., can be had from the same sources, also a good many rough masons and carpenters. Thoy will do good work as stokers on all steam machinery. An abundance of skilled labor and foremen for both divisions of the canal can be procured from the United States and from Europe with no troubh; and without pay- ing very high wages. For the Pacific division of the canal 1 believe plenty of com- mon labor can be found in the various States of Central America. I have found these laborers fairly efficient under good management. The rates of pay, including NICARAGUA CANAL. 2-80 stiltsistencc, on ilio whole canal will i)rol)ably bo little more than half the average ]iaid in the I'nited States and I slunild say the ctiicieufy of the laborers was also about half that of laborers in the United States. This was written when silver was mucb higher than now, when the sole was wortli about 75 cents on the doihir. Kow it is only worth 45 or 50, although the rates of labor in the country remain the same. The installation of the workinjj plant on the eastern division, including the build- ing of additional necessary railroad, will be expensive and will add considerably to the cost per cubic yard of the work. 15ut, on the other hand, steam coal from Alabama or from Wales, and timbers and lumber from the Southern States, will be cheap. On the western division fuel and lumber will be, more costly, but the expense for them can be closely estimated in advance. When I commenced work on the railway at Sau Juan del Norte, the cost of dis- charging freight, especially heavy machinery, as locomotives, Avas greater than the cost of transportation from New York. Now, I nnderstand, vessels can be unloaded directly on to cars at the entrance to the caual. At that time the harbor was opened and vessels drawing from 12 to 14 feet of water went into the harbor without difficulty, and the cargoes were unloaded directly on the wharf. For the Pacific division, lighterage will be necessary until the harbor work at Brito is llnished, but during a large part of the year vessels can lie safely at anchor there in the lee of the land, the wind being uniformly from the eastward except for two or three months. In case of necessity the excellent harbor of San Juan del Sur 6 miles away, can be used. Any engineer or contractor examining the work will be soon impressed by the fiict that it is " both way" work, i. e., that a large part of the excavation is to go into the embankment instead of being wasted, and that no material whatever need bo bor- rowed for dams or embankments. This will reduce the unit cost of the work very materially. The thorough examination by borings which has been made shows clearly the char- acter of material to be handled for the whole length of tlie canal, and it is such that little allowance need be made for slides. The only uncertain jiartof the work would seem to be the foundations for some of the dams and emljaiikments. If masonry structures were to be erected this would be a very serious matter, but since perma- nence is to be secured by the mass and weight of "rock-lill dams," rather than by any form of masonry construction (as 1 understand has been decided), tliis becomea merely a matter of dumping onto tlie dam or embankment so much more or less of the material from the cuts and wasting less or more in more convenient places. In auycontingency there will be enough rock excavation from the great cutting of each division of the canal to make the dams and embankments of the same division, and to make them as durable as the adjacent hills. There is a large amount of dredging to be done at the eastern outlet of the lake, but the material there is a soft, thin mud, which can be moved by suction dredges similar to those used in iilliugthe Potomac tlats at Washington, infilling in tide flat lauds at Tacoma, and in similar work elsewhere, for a very small cost per cubic yard. The dredging to be done at either end of the canal is like that done at Colon by bucket dredges and also in other places. The cost of the concrete and masonry for the locks can be approximately estimated, and the steel work for the gates can be made anywhere in the world where it can be had most cheaply. The harbor work at San Juan del Norte is already well under way, and the correctness of the engineers' plans and estimates seems to be demonstrated. The problem of the harbor at Brito is apparently more simple than at San Juan del Norte. It is such work as has been already successfully'^ done elsewhere. I should say the estimate per cubic yard for earth excavation on the eastern-divide cut was too low, but that is comparatively a small item. The work is one which ofi'ers ample opportunity for experience and skill and tho careful management of large forces of men in its accomplishment, and its cost will be largely alTected l»y these agencies. There will be plenty of cliances for trying costly experiments in construction, and millions can be quickly spent in following- wrong methoils of work without doing much toward the completion of the canal; but it seems to me that the work can bo done on the whole canal lor about the unit prices estimated by the chief engineer and give the contractors fair profits. Assuming that the quantities throughout have been accurately calculated, the canal should be built for considerably less than $100,000,000. Very truly, yours, C. P. Treat, .,^ Office^ Bookery Building, Chicago, 290 NICARAGUA CANAL. This was in 1892, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Treat was frequently consulted Avith by myself and the company in regard to this matter, and last year, when an effort was being made in London to interest some English cap- ital in this enterprise, the de.sire was expressed to have bids made for the entire work — to find some engineers or some contractors of sufficient capacity to make a proposition for the entire work. Mr. Treat before this Imd made a contract bid for the entire western end of tlie canal. He said he preferred to have that; that he was capable of carrying on that amount of Avork himself, without help; that he would give abun- dant security to the company for its completion; and he made a bid for the western end of the canal, which was read here yesterday, and of which I have a copy which is substantially correct. The company desired him to go further than that, and to see at what price he would be willing to build the entire canal. This statement was made while he was in London. I simply knew of it by the reports brought to me by Mr. Smith M. Weed and Mr. 3>artlett, who were there, and I made that statement in perfect good faith and truthfuluess, as it will appear. When I heard it had been disputed in this committee that any such x)roposition had been made in any form, I immediately telegraphed Mr. Treat in Chicago and received telegrams from him, which I need not read because they are repeated in tins letter, but 1 will read the entire letter. This is not the bid which was read here yesterday, the one I am reading about now. It was a lump sum bid for the western end. He first made the bid in detail, which was read yesterday, and then this lump-sum bid. Mr. HooLiTTLE. What Bartlett is that? Mr. Miller. He was the chairman of the reorganization committee. When the Canal Construction Company went into the hands of a receiver a reorganization committee was formed to reorganize the com- pany, and Mr. Bartlett was made chairman of that committee ; and when the company was reorganized and the new company was started Mr. Bartlett was for the first year president of that company, of which I was the chairman of the board. This bid, then, is a lump-sum bid for the western end of the canal, taking all the risks himself as to quantities and material and the pos- sible results. He says: Chicago, May 2, 1S96. Hon. Warner Miller: Dear Sir : I have received your telegram. I leave to-night for California. I replied as follows: I would agree to build tlie western division of the canal and put a ship drawing 28 feet from the Pacific Ocean intoLalie Nicaragua for $31,000,000. Have no doubt syndicate or individual could build entire canal for $100,000,000 and make large profits. This was a lump-sum bid, he taking all his chances. Never made formal proposition for entire canal. Told Bartlett would be willing to undertake it for $100,000,000. Made him formal proposition for western division for $31,000,000, which I hereby confirm. I inclose herewith a co])y of bid which I made to Mr. Bartlett in 181*5 for the western division, based on unit prices. I also at his request made him a bid last winter in London to build the western division for a lump sum of $31,000,000, subject to certain conditions of payment as specified in the proposition. Colonel Ludlow and the other members of the Commission saw a copy of my bid of 18it5, and we discussed the unit prices. I think they did not consider any of my prices too low, except tlie item for concrete. That they questioned and were doubtful about. Of course, my bid does not in any way guarantee quantities, but those were closely determined by the surveys. Any man who can run transits and levels can do that. The chiefs of ]iartics and their men whom I saw and knew iu Nicaragua were entirely competent to do their work. NICARAGUA CANAL. 291 As to the character of the material and the liability of the slopes to slide aud increase the amount of excavation, I knew personally of the borings being done over much of the canal line including the eastern divide cut, and have samples of the rock in my Chicago office which I obtained while the borings were being made. There can be no danger of extensive slips on the western division, and I think very little danger on the eastern division. The clay overlying the rock on the eastern divide cut is of the same nature as that through which the cuttings Avere made for the railroad, and these cuts have stood perfectly until now. Under the clay the borings showed solid rock to the bottom of the cuts. I would be willing to undertake the construction of the entire canal now for $100,000,000, except that I am not ambitions to assume such a heavy load. I should have to consider it somewhat. I have no doubt that better men than I would under- take it. Yours, very truly, C. P. Treat. I submit, Mr. Chairman, tliat tliat justifies all I said in regard to Mr. Treat's proposition to build the entire canal. But that was not all; we sought bids from other people, both for the dredging- and the excava- tion of the work, and I hold in my hand a bid made by James P. McDonald & Co., of date July 23, 1895, for the construction of this canal. I need not say, perhaps, to those who understand it that McDonald & Co. are among the largest and most successful contractors in this country. At the present time they are just closing up the building of a railroad in Jamaica in which they have been engaged for several years. It has been under contract for at least five years, but abandoned by other parties and they took it up. I visited myself and went over some 60 miles of the road. These people would be backed by very large capital. 80 Broadway, New York, July 33, 1895. John R. Bartfett, Esq., President Nicaracjiui Canal Company, New York City, K. Y. Dear Sir: I understand from recent conversations with you that your company will shortly be able to be in a position to proceed Avith the work of construction of the Nicaragua Canal. In accordance with those conversations I herewith make the following preliminary tender to you: We should be willing to undertake the work at substantially the prices named for the different classes of work l.>y Chief Engineer Menocal in his report on the final location of the canal, d.-ited January 31, 1890, of which you furnished me a copy, with the following exceptions: We should want, instead of the prices given by Mr. Menocal, to be paid at the following rates : 1. Clearing per acre . . $1,50. 00 2. Rock excavation per cubic yard.. 1.80 3. Earth excavation do .50 4. Earth fills do .50 5. Earth under water do 3.50 G. Rock under water do 4. 00 7. Concrete in place do 10.00 The rest of the work described in Mr. Menocal's estimates we are prepared to exe- cute at his figures, which, with the changes therefrom last above referred to, would make the total amount for which we are prepared to build the canal $70,000,000. This proposal is made in respect to the whole canal. It can be made to apply jiro tanto to the eastern section thereof, from Greytown Harbor to the lake, thus excluding the work covered by the proposals which I understand yoxr have already received for the dredging and for the construction on the western coast. I should prefer, however, to make one contract, covering the entire work of the canal. I shall be prepared to give satisfactory bonds for the faithful performance of the work within five years from the date of the contract. It would be necessary for you to arrange that payments should be made monthly, either in New York or Greytown Harbor, upon certificates of work done or mate- rials furnished, approved by the engineers of your company ; and I am prejKired to take these contracts for 50 per cent in cash and 50 per cent in bonds of the canal conipany, at such price as they may be issued to any other contractors or syndicate or in any other way disposed of by your company ; or, if you choose, I am prepared 292 NICARAGUA CANAL. to make tlio contract for cash, aud I will coiitemporanconsly agree to subscribe for an amonut of tlie bonds iu any syndicate -which yon may prepare which will be ecjual to half of the amount to be paid me upon the whole contract, with its pro rata of stock. I shall be prei)arod to enter into a formal and detailed contract with your company whenever you are iu a position to satisfy me that your liuaucial arrangements have been so far perfected as to insure the receipt by me of the cash necessary to be paid under this contract. 1 ought to add that I am at present engaged under contract in the construction of a railway on the island of Jamaica, and I expect to finish that work about the first of the year. I am now emi)loyiug there about 8,000 men, with a large plant, aud if any contract is to be made with yon, I should desire to have the same perfected before the first of December, if practicable, so as to arrange for the transfer of my force and jilaut directly from Jamaica to the Isthmus. I feel safe iu saying, if you can show mo that your financial arrangemeuts have been consumuuited, I should have no difficulty in putting a force of 25,000 Jamaicans alone at work upon the canal within ninety days from the date of contract. in accordance with our conversation I have made this letter general in terms, but I think, with the modilicatious of Mr. Meuocal's figures above referred to, it is sutti- ciently s]>c(ilic to be the batsis of a- foruial contract for the construction of the whole or a part of the canal, if you accede to my terms. Yours, very truly, Jamks P. McDonald & Co. Tuesday, May 5. Mv. Miller. Here is the proposition made for the dredging by A. B. Bowers, the inventor of the snction dredge — the one whicli has been nsed so long at Tacoma aud on the Pacific Coast. This was made in 1894. Murray Hill Hotel, New York, May 25, 1894. John E. Bartlett, Esq., Chairman Beorganization Committee, Nicaragua Caval Construction Companrj, Dear Sir: Eeferring to and confirming my letter to you of April 14, 1894, 1 desire to say that since receipt of your reply I have consulted with my associates, Messrs. Hamilton, Williams, and Bliss, of Nevada, and others, who authorize me to make the following proposition, to which we desii'e your acceptance at as early a date as practicable. We desire to join in the syndicate you are organizing for the construction of the Nicaragua Ship Canal and hereby ofier to contract for all the dredging on the canal, including both harbors, under the estimates made by Chief Engineer Menocal, bear- ing date January 1, 18'J0, and amounting to about $9,000,000, on the folio wiug terms, to wit: Payment to be made all cash, or at your option 20 per cent cash and 80 per cent in the 5 per cent gold bonds of the Maritime Canal Company. Both cash and bonds to be paid us in pro rata mouthly installments as the work progresses. The bonds to be taken at 70, or at such price as other contractors may accept the same, or at the lowest price for which the said bonds are sold by the company at any time prior to the final completion and opening of the canal. It is understood, how- ever, that this contract shall be binding on neither party until other contracts to bo executed simultaneously with the dredging are taken on substantially the same terms, and of eijual amount or sufficient amount to insure a vigorous prosecution of the whole work, and ample security given for the payments of cash aud bonds as aforesaid. Should you award us the contract we will give sufticieut and satisfactory bonds for the ])erformauce, within four years from the commencement of the work, of all of said dredging, aud will commence preparations for the active prosecution of the work as sooii as tiie final contract is formally executed. I will reciuest my associates above named, and perhaps others, to write you approving the above proposition. Yours, verv truly, A. B. Bowers. Carson, Nev., June 4, 1S94. John R. Bartlett, Esq., Chairman Reorganization Committee, Nicaragua Canal Construction Company, 2 Wall Street, Netv York, N. T. Dear Sir: Referring to a projiosition made to yon by A. B. Bowers, esq., and dated May 25, 1894, wherein he, for himself and associates, agrees to contract to do NICARAGUA CANAL. 293 all the drcdsinj;^ work required for the construction of the Nicaragua Ship Cana\ under certain terms and conditions mentioned in said proposition, we desire to say as his associates in the enterprise that we fully indorse and approve said ])roposition, and that we will, in conjunction with Mr. Bowers, do all and everything that is nec- essarj' to carry out any contract entered into with the said canal company based ou the proposition mentioned. Yours, truly, B. Williams. H. M. GORHAM. D. L. Cliss. Mr. Miller. Kow, Mr. Chairman, we present these with the belief that they are far more important than any estimates that can be made by anybody as to tlie nnit of prices. They are made by gentlemen who are engaged in this business, who know it thoroughly, one of whom has spent a long time in Nicaragua, and the other firm, McDonald & Co., has been engaged in this work in the Tropics, and they understand fully what it means. Now, the statement is made unequivocally by Mr. Treat that the cost of labor, that is the per diem cost of the men, is about one-half what it is in the States, and that they perform one-half the amount of labor which would be performed in the States. In other words, that the labor cost in removing earth or doing any other labor, that the unit of cost would be precisely what it is in the United States. At the present time with the i)resent low price of silver it is even less than that. Mr. Treat's experience of sev^en months in building this railroad ought to be the best possible testimonj^ that can be given in regard to a matter of this kind, and in another letter which he wrote me of the same date, May 2, in regard to labor, he said : I told the Commission Mr. DooLiTTLE. What commission does he refer to? Mr. Miller. He refers to the Commission of which Colonel Ludlow is the chairman. I told the Commission that I considered the labor a little more than half as efficient as in the United States and the rate of pay was half as much. I never had more faithful workers than the natives of Costa Rica and Nicaragua. It was stated here yesterday that the labor of the South American States, Nicaragua and Costa Kica, was worthless; that they would not work. Mr. Treat said he had two or three hundred hands employed all the time. I never had more faithful workers than the natives of Nicaragua and Costa Rica and the Jamaicans were not bad. I expect to be back in three Aveeks and would be glad to come to Washington then if not too late. Now, the position taken by the comi)any is this, that labor in Nica- ragua costs about one-half what it does in the United States, and it is about one-half as elfective. If I recollect aright the report of the Com- mission, they make a similar statement, but now they make the state- ment that the cost of labor in Nicaragua is twice what it is in the United States. Now, the prices paid are well known Mr. DooLiTTLE. I would like to call attention to the fact that it was stated here yesterday in one statement which was made that it was about one-fourth? Mr. IMiLLER. I will come to that. It amounts to that when we come to it, and you say it costs twice as much. Mr. Patterson. I did not understand ft that way. I understood Colonel Ludlow to say that when a given piece of work was to be done that the labor cost of the performance of that work was twice as great there as it was here? 294 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Miller. That is my understanding, and that is what I stated or intended to say. Mr. Patterson. And the climatic conditions Mr. Miller. Everything approacliing to it. Mr. Treat, however, says, as I have just read in his own language, that the cost of labor iu Nicaragua is about the same as it is in the United States — that is to say, you pay one half the price per day for a man and get one-half the amount of labor. That makes it the same, as you can readily see. Mr. DooLiTTLB. Mr. Treat is strongly indorsed in regard to that matter; he is said to understand all about these conditions'? Mr. Miller. I asked the secretary of the comi)any to make up from our books a statement of what we paid for labor during those days. Colonel Ludlow. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word there merely to explain what the position of the Commission is? Mr. DooLiTTLE. I think there will be opportunity after this. Colonel Ludlow. I will only take two minutes. Mr. Miller. I have no objection to that, although I have to get away on the 4 o'clock train. Colonel Ludlow. If there is no objection, it is this: The belief and statement made by the board is not especially with reference to labor alone or cost of hiring it or effectiveness alone, but the unit of the cost of work done, taking into account all matters, is twice at Nicaragua what it would be for the same work iu the United States. The com- parison covers every consideration affecting tlie cost in ISTicaragua. Mr. ]\[iLLER. I understand that to be the statement made by the commission, and I understand also the statement was made here yes- terday, very deliberately, that the labor cost of any piece of work, taking the labor by itself, was twice what it was in the United States. The secretary of our coraijany says : We paid colored laborers from Jamaica 20 soles per mouth and subsistence. Occa- sionally wo paid 25 soles and subsistence, but I take it that was for local native labor. Twenty solos and subsistence was the contract price. In estimates subsistence is counted at 11 soles per month. So far as I can discover it actually costs 11.50 soles only. This would make labor cost from 31.50 to 36.50 soles i)er month. At that time soles were worth about 72 cents; the eciuivalent in Americau money would, on that basis, be $22.68 to $26.28; to-day soles are worth less than 50 cents. You see this is less than one-half what is paid in this country, decid- edly so anywhere. TLie cost of labor on the Chicago Drainage Canal to-day is for common labor of this same kind $1.50 and the man linding himself; that is, in gold. Now, in estimating the cost of a piece of work employing eight or ten thousand men it is important to know what pro- portion is skilled and what proportion is common labor. I telegraphed this morning to the chief engineer of the Chicago Drainage Canal and this is Ins answer: Report of August, 1895, shows 77 per cent of unskilled labor on the Chicago Drain- age Canal. Now, Colonel Ludlow stated yesterday, and unadvisedly, I think, that one great cost of labor down there would be the necessity of keeping a large number of relay men on hand, lie said a double set of men, so if a man running a steain engine or dredge was taken sick, they could not wait and send to New York for another man, but should have some one else on hand. Let us see about that as practical men, and I have employed a good many men. If this work was going on quite extensively, there would l)e from r)0 to 100 loi'()nu)tive engines at work. There would be perlia])s 100 or more steam engines used lor hoisting and drilliny- and all kinds of work. There would be a large number NICARAGUA CANAL. 295 of tiiiiboats and other steamboats on tlie water. There would be, all told, iroiu 100 to liOO and 300 steam eugineers on this whole work from ocean to ocean. Kow, it goes without saying there would not be any necessity for doubling all those employees. It is not done on any railroad in this country. They keep a few extra engineers, and when a man is sick another man takes his place, but that does not cost the comi:)any any- thing except the relay men. because when a man goes off work and does not do his duty he does not get any pay, and out of this vast number the relay mesi who would have to be maintained would not exceed those maintained upon a railroad or any great work in this country. I sim- ply want to bring out the tiict here that Mr. Treat, who is so far alto- gether the best autliorityupon this question of labor, and has the most experience with it, holds here, as I have read to you, the cost of labor in Nicaragua, the cost of the unit of labor for work, is precisely the same as it is in the United States. Now, what other costs are there down there which would be greater? In the iirst place, we do not pay anything for the right of way, we do not pay anything for the material, nor do we pay anything for the timber taken off the public lands. It is all given to us. We do not pay anything for rock or sand or anything we want there, and when we import things from abroad, we have the right to bring them in there without duty. Onr rock cutting machinery, hoists, and other machinery are bonglit in this country or in England, at the very lowest possible price, and they are delivered at Nicaragua at not exceeding what it costs in this country. For instance, you can carry your flour and all provisions from New York or New Orleans for less money per barrel of flour, or barrel of pork, or barrel of rice, than it costs to bring a barrel of flour from the great mills of l^Iinneapolis to New York. We did it there for a while, and I know what it costs. The average cost of sup- porting all these men when we were working- as high as l,(i00 was a little less than 30 cents a day, and they were well fed and housed and cared for, and we sent them clothingdown there bought in the cheapest market in the world and sold it to them at what it cost, and they were entirely satisfied with it. There is not a single item there — take, for instance, the item of cement; portland cement would be taken there from Belgium, England, or Germany. There are large works in Belgium, and let us see in regard to that. It was stated here to-day, in giving prices upon which the Govern- ment was having concrete work done, that cement cost a certain amount laid down at the works, but in every case that included duty paid upon the cement in this country; bnt that cement is brought into Nicaragua, if we use it on the canal, without paying any duty. Let us see what cement costs. We have used some there. The price of portland cement in bond varies according to the brand. This was written the 13th of February, and the price then was 11.75 to $1.83 per l)arrel — that is, in bond, duty unpaid. In 1889 and 1890, when Mr. Menocal made his last estimate, it ranged from $1.90 to $1.95. Now, this cement can be put in Greytown in shiploads, as it will have to be, of course, just as cheaply as you can put it in New York or any port of the United States, and it is put in there without duty, and the duty upon portland cement in barrels is8 centsper 100 pounds, and there- fore you have got to add to all these prices upon works in the United States the duty upon the cement. In short, there is not a thing required in Nicaragua that will cost more there than it will cost in the United States, and so fur as iron and machinery of all kinds is concerned it 296 NICARAGUA CANAL. goes in witliont duty, and it can be taken here from the United States, or it can be taken from Europe if it can be bought any cheaper tli ere. The company is under no obligations to go to a particular country for its material, and I submit that there is not a single item entering into the cost of this canal of that kiiul of iron work — finished machinery — dredges, for instance, which would not be built there. They would be built here or on the Clyde, and the locomotives would be built here and transported, and when the harbor is opened the cost of freight from New York to Groytown is not nearly as much as it is from Chicago to New York delivered by rail, or even by water. "Now, it is admitted that tlie climate is not as good there as here; and yet, with the class of labor we have there, the men who are inured, to wit, the Jamaica negroes, it is held that, for the number of dollars you pay, you are getting just as much labor down there as here. But, sir, it seems' to me evident to this committee that the great bulk of this work is to be done by steam power — by steam engines and by electricity — and not by human muscle. These great dredging machines, of course, employ but a small number of men. The crew upon this great dredge you have heard of, built by Mr. Bales, consists of but 17 men, and it will do the work of more than 30,000 or 40,000 men, working with shov- els and barrows. Mr. DooLiTTLE. He said 60,000. Mr. Miller. I need not go to the extreme. Coming now to the rock excavation, go to the Chicago Drainage Canal and see the excavating machines, drills, the cantilevers, and the overhead cables for doing all this work. The amount of human muscle to be used is comparatively small at the present day, and it is much smaller than it was when we made our estimates. Now, we are not complaining at the price that this Commission put upon the dredging work, although they raised it a little more than ours; but it is not a nuiterial difference. The mate- rial difterence in the cost they make out on that part of the business comes from the fact that they substantially double the amount of dredg- ing to be done. A canal of the same size as the Suez or Manchester, according to their judgment, is not sufficient for Nicaragua. It must be twice as wide through the river and twice as wide through the lake. They tell us this is done for the passage of the great battle ships which we are now engaged in building. When the plan of this canal was laid out no such ships were built in the world. This canal is laid, out large enough to carry all the war vessels in the world, but the locks would not be wide enough, although wider than any battle ship, but still they would not be wide enough for them to pass. If the Government wants to build it, how much more would it cost to build a lock 10 or 15 feet larger than we have it! It will cost more to build the gates and machinery about it, but it is only a small item. It would not add 5 i)er cent to the cost of it. In short, then, l have shown you from the best authority there is the cost of unit labor in Nicai'agua is not greater than it is in the United States, and I do not ne«d to show yon, I simply refer to the fact, that everything else that goes into that canal that belongs to Nicaragua we get without charge, and everything we import we buy in the cheapest market and import without any duties whaterer, and, as 1 have said before, the buildings and all the machinery and everything of that kind will be constructed in this country or Euroi)e and sent down there and put together. I think I have stated enough about that now, Mr. Chairman. The statement made here yesterday in regard to the cost of unit of labor in NICAKAGUA CANAL. 297 Panama seems to me was most iiiifortuTiate. The Commission tells us that they found no time to take soundings upon the San Juan Eiver above the Ochoa Uam, that they had no time, bat they did have time at Nicaragua to take soundings upon the canal for 12 or 15 miles, and found it to be only lilled in 4 or 5 feet. I do not care about that. Do not let us dispute over small things. Days and days have been used up here in vast amount of stuff which amounts to nothing whatever. There seems to be a great deal of personality in it; why, I do not know. Let those who have indulged in it explain it as they desire. The figures given forth for the estimated cost of dredging at Panama were most unfortunate. If I am wrong in my memory Colonel Ludlow will correct me. I do not remember any estimate for any of that work at less than 40 or 50 cents a yard for any important part, although there may have been some as low as 1^0. It seems to me it ran from 50 to 00 cents a yard up to a dollar in the estimates, according to Napoleon Bonaparte Wyse and Colonel Eives, who is in the employ of the Canal Company in the management of the Panama Railroad. Be that as it may be, I presume that these figures were arrived at largely from the prices which were paid by the Panama Canal Company in its heyday, when millions upon millions of money were expended and when it was doing a great anu)unt of work. Now, M'hat was jiaid then, and let us see what profits were made. The American Contract and Dredging Company, which plant I bought and brought to Greytown for the i)uri)ose of starting upon the work, Mr. Slevin, the man who organized that company, and was the chief manager during all the years it was at work there at Panama, told me the bulk of the work was done for 2 francs per cubic yard for dredging, some of it done for 3 francs, and some of it for more, but that the great bulk was somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 cents per cubic yard for the dredging, and they built these powerful dredgers which we now have, and what was the result? It violates the confidence of no one, because it is well known in New York, and can be known by any one, that the company paid, during the great bulk of the time it was at work, as high as 50 per cent dividends per month. Out of a contract amounting to something over $20,000,000 they divided over $10,000,000 profit on the business, dUd the Lord only knows, sir, because the Paris courts did not go into it, how much of the other half they paid to the thieves and corrui)tors in Paris. Then M^iat are the good of these prices, and are these prices to be brought in here under any kind of authority as a criterion by which the cost of this canal is to be figured upon? It seems to me that it is most unfortunate to bring it in here. It has been shown — as I showed before — we did a large amount of dredging with these machines at an actual cost of 11 cents per cubic yard, and, mind you, we did it under disadvantageous circumstances. The company did not have money enough to push the work, and instead of having two reliefs of men to work the dredges night and day we only worked them ten hours per day, and I need not tell any engineer or contractor to start one of these dredges in the morning takes anywhere froin half an hour to an hour, and then you have to stop in the day to get out the water and sand, and so actually of the ten hours they did not operate more than nine hours. If we could have oy^erated the dredges for twenty-four hours ])er day, using electric lights, we could have done that dredging for at least 15 per cent less than we did, and we would have paid the interest on the investment and everything else connected with it. Undoubtedly a vast amount of the cost of the dredges will be sunk, worn-out. but 298 NICARAGUA CANAL. ■wlien you take the millions upon millions of yards moved and take the cost of purchasing the dredges and divide up the number of millions of yards you will find it is an exceedingly small sum. ISTow, then, I stated here the other day that when I went over the line of the canal some four or five years ago, an English engineer by the name of Donahlsou went with me. He came as representing the Walker syn- dicate, which was building the Manchester Canal. He had been the chief engineer of one section on that canal. He spent a month or more at Nicaragua, and he came to New York and went over the plans of the com- pany and all our estimates, and went home to London to make his report. Unfortunately for us and all concerned, Mr. Walker siiu*e died, and his estate, 1 believe, was not sound, and the Barings, who had been inter- ested in the matter and the Manchester Canal, failed, and you all know in regard to that. A few months after that I visited London in connec- tion with an attempt to interest an English syndicate in this matter, and there I saw Mr. Donaldson and he told me he had made his report, but it was confidential and he could not show it to me. He stated if it ever came to light, and I saw it, I would be satisfied with it. I asked him in reference to the estimated cost, and lie told me the estimated cost of the canal was a little more than Mr. Menocal's, and there the matter dropped. I make this statement, sir — it is not necessary, perhaps, to take it up and to say I am prepared to make it on oath — but it api)ears that Col- onel Ludlow thought that the credit of JMr. Doimldson was in someway being abused by the company, and his name was being used to bolster up this matter and he ought to be informed of it, and thus induced to take back whatever he may have said if he said anything; and refer- ring to Mr. Ludlow's testimony we find this letter of the 14th of April, ISOG, That has been read; I will not take up your time to read it again, but I submit to this committee that there is not any denial in there of anything 1 have said, not in the slightest degree. I defy any- one to tind it. If it is anything it is simply to throw discredit upon his own estimates. He admits, as he did to me and as I knew, he did not verify Mr. JMenocal's estimate of quantities. He could not do that, of course. He took the estimates of cpiantities as made by our chief engineer and then he got his unit -of price for doing the work upon investigation in Nicaragua of what our company was doing when he was there. We were then building that railroad and it was nearly finished. I do not propose to read that letter. Mr. Donaldson must have had the idea that someone was attempting to use him. 1 do not know how it has been used. 1 hiive never used it in any other way than I am using it now. I have stated it rei)eatedly to peoi)]e who have asked if other engineers had looked into the question, and 1 stated that Mr. Donaldson had, and gave his statement just as I have given it to you now. He says here that Colonel Ludlow has been ofiicially informed as to the use that the coni]iany was making of his statement. What that ollicial information means or was I do not know. Whether it means that the Government of the United States, the War Depart- ment, had informed him oflicially of it, or what else it is, I do not know. That is a matter of no consequence, however, but 1 will not leave it there. As my veracity in regard to this subject has been called in cpiestion by Colonel Ludlow, I came here preijared, as I did in the case of Mr. Treat, to prove everything 1 said. NICARAGUA CANAL. 299 21 COURTLANDT STREET, Mtv York, May 1, 1896. Hon. Warner Miller, Arlington Hotel, Washington, D. C. My Dear Sir: Referring to tlie question you aslved me to-day about Mr. Donald- sou, the English eugineer, who went with you and Mr. Menocal over the line of the canal, I desire to saj^ : That in 1894, under the auspices of the reorganization committee, there was an auxiliary committee of the Nicaragua Canal formed in London, of which Sir Arthur Forward, Sir Andrew Clark, Sir Edward Corbin, and others, were members. At a session of that committee Mr. I'oualdson appeared and made to the committee, in my presence, a statement as to his knowledge, information, and belief as to the feasi- bility and cost of the Nicaragua Canal on the lines and plans of Mr. Menocal. While Mr. Donaldson said that he had not gone over the computations fully, but taking the computations as accurate, under the survey's of Mr. Menocal, he had no doubt in his mind, lirst, that the line of construction was thoroughly feasible ; second, that the canal could be built substantially within the estimate of the company, although, taking in interest and a larger percentage of contingencies, he should fix the total sum for which the canal could be built at £20,000,000. This statement, as I recollect, was spread out upon the minutes of the committee, and I have sent for copies of those minutes, with which I will furnish you. ]\Iy memory, however, is most distinct ui)on this subject, and I know that Mr. Donaldson stated substantially what I have said in most emphatic terms. Very truly, yours. Smith M. Weed. Mr. Miller. Mr. Weed is known to everybody on this committee, and to very many people in this conntry, for that matter, and I do not believe anybody will undertake to gainsay that statement. So much for that, as I do not care to carry it farther. But it is most remarkable tliat statements made of myself and Mr. Menocal and others should have been called in question by this Commission, for what purpose I do not understand, unless it is to create a prejudice against us throughout the country. Let that stand as it may. I have never troubled myself l)ersonall3 , politically, or otherwise by attacks of that kind, but when it comes in connection with this comjiany and before a committee of Congress, of which 1 once had the honor to be a member, I like to protect myself with facts, and not with general statements. Now, let us see what there is in this whole thing and where we are. Concessions were obtained from Nicaragua by a number of gentlemen, and by them a company was organized and they proceeded to raise some |f,(M)(»,()00 or .i?5,000,000 and send a corps of engineers to sur- vey the route. It had been surveyed previously by the Government, and Colonel Childs and a large number of men all over the world had investigated it, either as engineers or in the ordinary way of i^assing over the line. The Congress of the United States concluded, or thought — some of them, at least — that the Government of the United States ought to have this canal and ought to control it and build it, and so they organized a Commission to go down there and investigate all our work and to report upon it as to whether it was feasible and what it would cost, and now what is the result, and what is the difference between the company and the Commission to get at it? There has been a lot of verbiage and a great deal of personality and talk here which in no way affects this question at all. In the first place, the Commission criticised the entrance to Grey town Harbor, saying it should be moved farther to the east. The answer of the company to that is absolutely perfect. Tt can not be moved any farther that way, because the Government of Nicaragua will not permit it, because the concession compels us to make it on Nicaragua soil, and when you pass to the point you want to get according to the Commission you go upon the territory of Costa Kica. Colonel Ludlow states they paid no atteu- 300 NICARAGUA CANAL. tion to tliat, that tliey knew iiotliing about that law; they did it purely and simply as engineers, without regard to the concession. Let us pass by that. It is admitted that by building the piers out far enough undoubtedly a channel could be maintained by dredging, and that is the way channels are maintained in all sea canals at their outlet. It was thought that i)erhaps there should be a slight change of the line across the lagoon. That is of no consequence. "VVe are, however, entirely satisfied that the line proposed by the company is better than the line proposed by them. AVhen we come to the locks, they say they are possible but ought to be larger in order to admit battle ships. All right: build them larger to take in battle ships or imaginary ships that may be built in fifty years from now. Then we go through the basins, and that is all right. Tliey can be built; there is no doubt about that. They can be built across there with rock and clay and by making i)roper wasteweirs, etc.; that can be done. When we come to the key of the situation, the Ochoa Dam — I will not take up time in regard to that, as it has been discussed by the hour — but what is the final result"? The final result is that the Ochoa Dam can be built, a rock-filled dam, by properly protecting the abutments on the sides so that the water can not get around them, but the Commission think it would be better to build this dam so high the water could not go over it, and turn the water over wasteweirs to be built on the San Carlos. Now, we do not object to that, and what would have been done when the company came to put a contract for the Ochoa Dam and this canal? Mr. IMenocal perfectly understood and everybody in the company under- stood that we never should have given out any contracts at all until after we had organized a board of consulting engineers of the ablest men we could fiiul in the world, and all of these i)roblems would have been submitted to them, and if they had said it was safe to build this dam and use it as a weir and let the water run over it we should have done so. If they had said it was safer to build it high so that the water should never go over it and make wasteweirs to turn the water out, the decision of the board would have been that that should be done. Of course, Mr. MenocaFs estimateswere based upon apian which he believed to be feasible, but ^Ir. ^Vlenocal never asked that the company should undertake a great work like that without submitting it to other engi- neers. We go to the river and the question is only a question of clean- ing out the rapids and dredging the river to a sufiicient depth. That can be done. I have bids from responsible people who will do it and at our price. Now, when you come to the lake, there is mud running out 14 miles. It is a difficult job, undoubtedly, but I do not think the Commission or anybody has any idea or doubt but that it can be done. They may think it will cost more than we do, and they put a price on that of I'O or 30 cents a yard, I do not know which; but I know I can build a dredge, or take one of the modern dredges, and move that mud out of the line of that canal for less than 5 cents a yard. Of course no contractor would agree to do it for that price, because he would not go there and do it for that, but it is being done for less than that. I know the contractors taking mud out of iNIobile Harbor are getting 7 cents, and they tell us they are satisfied with their profits. Now, that could be done there. Then we come to the western side, and what do we find there? It is perfectly even and straight work from the lake down. Nobody doubts that at all. Then we come to the Tola Dasin and the Tola Dam. The Commission tells us from the infornmtion they have that the Tola Dam NICARAGUA CANAL. 301 can not be built. Very well, they may be correct and they may not. They have not got sufficient information to determine whether it can be or not. The company have made borings there, and then u])on an upper Hue raised above that, and though we did not get the foundation we wanted, the last work 1 ordered done upon tlie canal was, I sent IVIr. H. 0. Miller and a gang of men with diamond drills to work upon the site of the Tola Dam, and kept them there for several months, and it was not satisfactory; and, while we had not tinished when the money of the company gave out, they got a good deal of information. Why should we stop this great work or hold it for a minute? The company had an alternative, and that was simply to build the canal in excavation right through the basin, the easiest place in the world to take the canal. The object of building the Tola Dam was because of that large basin there, to save excavation, and it was cheaper to build a dam. If it is not safe to build a dam, then abandon it; but I infer from Colonel Ludlow's statement the company never had any such alterna- tive. That was an alternative that was i)ut to me the day I came into the company. I said to Mr. Menocal, "What about this dam; can it be built?" He said, "I think that it can, but we do not know; but if it can not be built we can build it by excavation just as building a canal through any low country." Mr. Treat went there and told me he would build the dam without any trouble providing the foundation was there; but that we did not know and nobody knew. And then, when you come to the harbor at Brito, there does not seem to be any doubt in the minds of the Commis- sion that can be built. They say it ought to be moved a few thousand or a few hundred feet farther south, for some reason I do not know what; but for that matter it would have been presented to the board of consulting engineers on this work and they would have adopted the plan or not. No great work of this kind, or any great work, like a bridge, the Brooklyn bridge, or the North liiver bridge, or the East liiver bridge projected, is built without the plans being submitted to consulting engineers after the company has made its plans; the plans are submitted to the ablest men they can get as consulting engineers, and if they approve it, it goes along just as it is proposed, and if the consulting engineers find that certain changes ought to be made, the company makes them, and that is what would have been done in this case or in any other great work. No man ever knew of a railroad even ten miles long being built without some changes in it after the original survey was made. How about the Pacific Eailroad or any great work of this character? But, ]Mr. Chairman, this work is to be delayed. Why? Because we have not sufficient evidence to do anything. I submit from a careful examination of this report that the statement that I have just made regarding it that the points of diiference between the company and the Commission have been fairly stated, and when fairly stated there is not a ground to stand on why the work should be delayed. They want more data about water. They tell us we do not know how high the water rises. We do know how high it has risen, but we do not know how high it will rise next year. They tell us that the statement I made of the rise of the river being 6 feet is incorrect and that it rises 18 or 20 feet at Machuca Eapids. I gave the average rise through the river, gained from talking with captains living and working on the river for years. If Colonel Ludlow will go with me, I can show him on the Hudson Biver and Black Biver where, at the foot of the high falls on Black River, the water rises 25 feet at the foot of the falls, whereas 302 NICARAGUA CANAL. above the falls it rises only 6 feet, and 2 miles below it rises I think only 8 or 10 feet. Two weeks ago, if you had gone to my mill, I could have shown you 15 feet of water rise at the foot of Palmers Falls, and a mile and a lialf below the rise is less than 6 feet. Everybody knows that water piles nj) at the foot of the falls and where the channel is dammed up it rises there. The moment the dam is built the falls disappear, and instead of a narrow channel that whole river becomes a great lake, whose boundaries are not yet known, as they have not been reached by a survey. By having that much more room for holding the rainfall, the rise would be less rapid and the descent "would be less rapid. I understood Colonel Ludlow to say we could not maintain this canal at 110 feet, that because of the waste weirs it would run dowu. Anybody knows that weirs are built to-day movable, and when a great flood of water comes the weirs are opened and it passes over it, and when there comes a time of low water the weirs are closed and it is held back. The lake can be held at 110 feet, provided there is enough surplus water in the lake to run the canal, and it is estimated it does not take 10 per cent of it. Mr. Chairman, I must take the 4 o'clock train with my lamily, and I am greatly obliged for your permitting me to come here again to correct these statements made in regard to my former statement. Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet at 2 p. m. on Wednesday, May 6, 1806. Wednesday, May 6, 1896. The Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce this day met, Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair. STATEMENT OF MR. A. G. MENOCAL. The Chairman. Mr. Menocal, we will now hear you. Mr. Menooal. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I have been directed by the Secretary of the Navy to report to the chairman of the committee, which I have now the honor to do, and I Avill be very glad to comply with your wishes in any matter you may desire. The Chairman. I suppose the order was made for the purpose of giving you an opportunity, if you desire to avail yourself of it, to make any statement to the coujmittee in connection with the subject under inquiry. Mr. Menocal. A great deal has been said before this committee which I have not had an opportunity to read or to hear. I have heard certaiii statements which have been made here by Colonel Ludlow, however, and upon those statements I would like to make a few remarks, and after- wards, if the members of the committee who have heard the whole of the testimony desire to ask me any questions in regard to Colonel Ludlow's statement, [ will be very glad to reply to them to the best of my ability. 1 stated when I was before the committee but a few days ago that the Nicaragna Canal board had spent two weeks, more or less, in the examination of the line of the canal. When 1 made this statement, I had in view only the line of the canal as located b^' the Nicaragua Canal Comjiany, and which I supi)osed this board had been called upon to examine. I was not considering at the time the whole country of Nicaragua. You hear frequently travelers who have been through Nicaragua, having landed on the T*aciflc Coast, traveled across the country and come out at Greytown, tell you they have been over the country and NICARAGUA CANAL. 303 tbat the cniial route is tlioroiighly practicable, that they Lave been all over it, over every foot of tlie ground, and that there can be no doubt as to its practicability; but it was not that kind of examination 1 had in mind wlien I said the board had spent only two weeks, more or less, in the examination of the line. I had in view such an examination as an engineer would have to make of the physical conditions on the spot, so as to be able to ascertain and to weigh the difficulties and facilities that those conditions would present in the construction of such a work as this, and this examination, I know from the nature of the ground, can only be made and this information can only be obtained by going over every foot of the ground. I said in my statcnient that two weeks more or less had been spent in the examination of the canal route and its vicinity. When I said its vicinity, I meant such parts of the country as will be more or less affected by the construction of the canal — that is to say, such points along the canal route where embankments were to be built. They are not on the axis of the canal, but nevertheless form a part of the project of the canal itself. ISTow, I will read for the information of the comn)ittee, and in order to vindicate myself as to the statement I made before, a concise synopsis of the movements of the board while in Nicaragua, and then I will leave it to the committee to decide whether I was correct or not in my statement. The board arrived at Nicaragua on the 13th of ]May, and remained at Greytown until the 21st. They left (ireytown on the 21st for the lake and river, tnking the steamer at Greytow]! and going up the river to the lake. They arrived at the lake on the 23d of ]\lay, having spent two days in going up the river, of which one day was spent on that portion of the river which is not affected by the construction of the canal. The 24th was employed by the board in making a trip up the Eio Frio, which empties into the lake, for a distance of perhajis G or 10 miles — the exact distance is immaterial — and then they went about 5 miles into the lake and returned to Fort San Carlos. The steamer which was to take the board across the lake was not there, ard it was repeatedly stated by the members of the board in my presence and in the presence of those who were around that the time from the evening of the 24th until the evening of the 26th, when the steanier arrived at San Carlos to take them across the lake, was absolutely wasted time; 80 they were two days there whicli were declared by the members of the board to be a loss of time to them. They left Fort San Carlos on the evening of the 2()tli. On the morning of the 27th they arrived at San Jorge, on the west shore of the lake, and the assistants of the board landed there with certain i)rovisions, utensils, etc., and the board con- tinued on their way to the capital, at Managua. They made a visit to Grenada and jManagua and returned on the following day, in the evening, to Rivas. When I was before the committee previously, I had no notes with me. I did not know at the time what was the nature of the investiga- tion to be made b^'the committee and did not come prepared to answer certain questions which were put to me. I had been seriously ill for ten days, having left my bed to come here, hardly able to stand up; my memory, perhaps, was not quite clear, and as 1 had no opportunity to correct my notes they were printed containing numerous errors, as I had the honor to report to the chairman of the committee soon alter I saw the printed testimony. I said then that the board returned fi'om Grenada to liivas and spent two or three days in hunting for horses or other meaujs pf transportation to go to Brito to commence the ^xami- 304 NirARAGUA C\NAL. nation of tlie canal line. That was a niistnlce. They did not spend two or tlnee days in Ivivas at tlie time; bnt that is inunaterial, becanse 1 will show by the records that they weie in Kivas five daj^s instead of three. Mr. DoOLiTTLE. Dnrin.u' what tinie"^ Mr. Menocai.. I will let yon know. I am going- to follow it up, so there will be no misunderstanding about this. INly veracity has been questioned, and I want to show the committee Avhat foundation I had for maldng the statement, and will then leave it to the committee to say whether 1 was correct or not. They left llivas on the morning of the following day and arrived near Brito about 4 or 5 oVlock in the after- noon and went into camp. Up to that time nothing had been seen of the canal route. We had crossed the line at one point on horseback and traveled by roads entirely away from the line of the canal to this cire by limitation is in October, 1899; but there is a provision in the conces- sion, as I have stated, by which the (iovernment of Nicaragua binds itself to give an extension of time in case of unforeseen circumstances, calamities, etc., which the company could not avoid. Now the question to be settled is whether the financml troubles the world is going throngh and other diriicultiesthat haveoccurred since the work was commenced are not sufficient to justify the company in asking for this extension and the (xovernment of Nicaragua in granting it, Mr. Corliss. One other question: In your judgment, can the canal be conqdeted within that period f Mr. INIengcal. No, sir; not by 1899. 1 thiidc the canal can be built in between iive ami six years, if the money is avaihil)le as tast as it is needed, and the work properly conducted. 1 think it can be com- pleted inside of that time. The Chairman. Under the concession, what was the company to do in the way of expenditures the first year? Mr. INIenocal, The conq)any was to spend $2,000,000, The Chairman. When was the expiration of that period? Mr. Menocal, It was October, 1890, The CiiAiR:\rAN. Did yon represent the conq)any in establishing the fact to the Nicaraguau Government that the expenditure had been made ? Mr. JMenocal. Yes, sir; I did, in this respect, I was representing the company in Nicaragua, and the Government of Nicaragua appointed two or three commissioners — 1 think three — who canu^ to Greytown, where I had my headfpiarters, with instructions from the Government of Nica- ragua to examine the cost of the work which had been done by the company and inform the Government as to how much had l)een sjjcnt up to the 10th of October, or sometime in the month of October, on the works of the canal. The investigation was made, and 1 gave tliem all the information I had, and our books were open to them. They saw what we had done and what we were doing, and they reported that the expenditures nj) to that date — lam s])eaking now from memory — were about three millions and some hniulreds of thonsands of dollars. The CiiAiKMAN, Did you include in tliat the i>lant which had l)een procured as well as the work Avhich had l)een done' Mr. INIenocal. Yes, sir; the idant which had been procnnnl, and also the cost of the Navigation Conq^any, which had been purchased by the Ni(,'aragua Canal Company because the owner of the Navigation Com- NICARAGUA CANAL. 317 paiiy had the privilege of navigating tlie river and lake, and one of the provisions of the concession was that the company could only obtain this privilege and have the right of navigating the lake and river by some arrangement with this individual, and he set up his price at $300,000 for his boats, his grant, storehouses, and everything else, and the company had at last to pay it. Tlie Chaikman. What company bought that; was it the Construc- tion Company or the Maritime Canal Company? Mr. Menocal. You are asking me in regard to matters to which I paid very little attention. The Chairman. Well, I will ask that in a different way. In estab- lishing the fact that the expenditure of 1 1',000,00(> had been nmde, did you include in that whatever sum, $300,000 or $100,000, which was paid by the Construction Company? Mr. IMenocal. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That was an asset whicli belonged to the Construc- tion Company, was it not, and not to the Maritime Company? Mr. ]\Ienocal. That is a point that I am not prepared to answer. My impression of that arrangement was this: The Construction Com- pany paid for everything, and at the end of a certain time, call it a niouth or say six months, a bill was presented to the Maritime Com- pany for the value of the work done or the expenditures made, and the Maritine Company would then pay for these expenditures by some arrangement — in securities, bonds, stocks, etc. Consequently, from the moment the securities were turned over to the Construction Company the plant and whatever work had been done and paid for became the property of the Maritime Canal Company. Have I expressed myself clearly ? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Now, do you understand that the Mari- time Company is the owner of that franchise? Mr. Menocal. Yes^ sir. The Chairman, For the navigation of the riverl Mr. Menocal. That is my understanding. The Chairman. Did you not state, when you were before this com- mittee during the last Congress, that the franchise was owned by the Construction Company? Mr. Menocal. Well, I have explained now that the Construction Comi^any bought all the plant and paid for and did all the work ; but by some arrangement which the Construction Comi^any had with the Maritime Company, the Construction Company was at some time, which I could not tell you — as I said before, I had nothing to do with the financial affairs of the company and I do not know that I have the right to say here what I am saying — but I know that some arrange- ment of that kind was made by which the Maritime Company paid the Construction Comi)any the expenditures made for the construction of the canal everything pertaining to the canal, and these payments were made, I think, by securities. Now, what the i3roportion was I can not say, The Chairman. What do you mean by securities; bonds or stocks? Mr. Menocal. As I say, I mean boiuls and stock. The Chairman. In what proportion ? Mr. Menocal. That is just what I say I do not know. The Chairman. Did not you negotiate this transaction? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I had absolutely nothing to do with the finan- cial arrangements of the company. The Chairman. Did not you negotiate for the purchase of this fran- chise ? 318 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Menooal. Yes; if you refer- Tbe Chairman. J)o yon not know tlie terms of payment? Mr. Menocal, If you refer to the franchise the company obtained from Nicaragua, 1 negotiated tliat. Tlie CriAUiMAN. 1 do not mean that, but I mean the franchise right to navigate the San Juan and the hike? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I liad absolutely nothing to do with that, aud I never even negotiated for a barrel of cement for the company. The Chairman. In establishing tlie fact to the satisfaction of the committee appointed by the Government of Nicaragua that $2,000,000 had been exi)ended by the company, did you include the purchase for about $775,000 of a certain dredging plant, etc., which was bought at Colon? Mr. Menocal. I remember distinctly that a portion of that dredg- ing plant was included; whether it was all or only part of it 1 can not say, as I do not remember. It is a long time ago, but I think that a portion of that pkmt and the cost of its transportation to Greytown was a part of the expenses which were included in making up that nniount. The Chairman. Now, will you state which comj^auy purchased that plant? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I could not tell you. The Chairman. Was it the Construction Company or the Maritime Comi)any? Mr. Menocal. I have to beg your pardon, as I do not know anything about it. There are others better informed on that subject than I am — Mr. Miller, who was then president of the company; and there is the secretary of the company, and others. I had nothing to do with it. The Chairman. In establivShing the fiict that there was an expendi- ture of 12,000,000 made during the year did you include an item of $105,000, or about that, for a dredge purchased in Glasgow? Mr. Menocal. There may have been. I do not remember the item now. The Chairman. Were you a party to the report that was made to the Nicaraguan Government as to these expenditures? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. The Chairman. You did not sign the report? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. I have no copy of the report with me, and I only renu'mber the circumstance that these commissioners came there and the books were open to them. The Chairman. Do you remember the names of those commissioners? Mr. Menocal. I remember two of them. One of them was Mr. Jose Antonio llomau and the other was Maximilian Sonnerstern. The Chairman. Have you ever seen the report nmde by either one of those gentlemen to the Nicaraguan Government? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I have not. The CiiAiR^MAN. So that no report made by them was in any way verified by your signature? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I had nothing to do with the report, I only gave the items, and the books were open to them and tliey got the data from them. The Chairman. If there was an item of about $105,000 for a dredge purchased in Glasgow included in those amounts, can you state whether or not that dredge was ever received at Greytown ? Mr. M]<:nocal. I have an imi)ression — ivi fact, I know — the company did buy a dredge in Glasgow, and that this dredge never reached Nicaragua. NICAl^AGUA CANAL. 319 The Chairman. It was sent to Australia, was it not? Mr. Menooal. I do not know, sir. I know a dredge was purchased in Glasgow, and that this dredge, the hrst one built, was sunk on the coast of England, but whether it was sunk on its way from Glasgow to Greytown, or to Australia, I do Jiot know, as I had nothing to do with it; but I know the dredge was sunk at sea. The Chairman. Was it not sunk at sea off the English coast on its way to Australia? Mr. Menocal. I do not know. I have no idea. I know it was sunk; I know that fact; at least I have been told so. I know it as you would know from hearing me tell you. I know another one was ordered or purchased The Chairman. Was it ever received ? Mr. Menocal. It was ordered, and I understand it was sold after- wards without having been sent to Nicaragua, because the work had stopped before tjie dredge was bronght over. The Chairman. You are not able to say whether that item of expenditure was included in the $2,000,000 of their alleged expendi- ture made during the first year? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; 1 could not make any statement in regard to that. The Chairman. Do you remember at what the work — when I speak of work I mean excavations in the canal or excavations in the harbor — what was the estimate of that Commission? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I do not. The Chairman. Did you furnish the Commission with any amounts or sums representing this class of work which had been done! Mr. Menocal. Mr. Cliairman, the Commission, if I remember cor- rectly, did not estimate the value of the work. They took the expend- itures which had been actually made. The terms of the concession were that the Canal Conij^any had to actuall^^ expend 12,000,000 in the first year, and the commission for Nicaragua had nothing to do with the actual valne of the woik which had been performed. The Chairman. Now, it was your mission there, as a representative of the Canal Company, to show to those gentlemen what expenditures had been made? ]Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. Tlie Chairman. And you represented the company in doing that? Mr. Menocal. I did. The Chairman. Now, what amount did you represent to them had been expended for this class of work of which I have spoken? Mr. Menocal. Mr. Chairman, I did not keep those documents. What I did there was to open to these gentlemen the books which were kept in Greytown, and to give them certain memoranda which was sent from New York — extracts from the books in New York, I suppose. That is all I did in connection with it. The Chairman. When you represented to them that expenditures had been made did you explain to tliem whether those were cash expenditures, or expenditures of securities, bonds, or stocks? Mr. Menocal. I gave them the figures which were given to me by the Canal Company and just as they were received. I could not tell you now. The Chairman. And you gave the figures to them as expenditures which were made bj' the Maritime Canal Company? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Without reference to the fact of wliether they were exx^enditures made by the Construction Company! 320 NICAKAGUA CANAL. Mr. ]\fENO0AL. AVell, you are a little mixed there; I do not know liow to answer that question. All expenditures were made by the Coustrue- tion C(inii)any, and afterwards paid I'or by the Maritime Company, but Avhat the arrangement between the companies was I know nothing about. AVhen the Commission was appointed certain information was sent through me to be laid before them, and the books in Greytown were open to them. They spent several days in examining- the books with the bookkeepers, and from them they got tlieir notes. That is all 1 know about it. I was no ])art of the Commission. The Chairman. You were a member of both companies as a stock- holder? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I was an engineer of the Construction Com- pany. The Chairman. Of the Construction Company? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. The Chaikman. Were you not a stockholder or an officer in both comi>anies? Mr. Menocal. I was a stockliolder to someextent; 1 had about 40 or 50 shares of the Maritime Company's stock, which I have now, but I was not an official of the IMaritime Com[)any at all, and I had nothing to do with the financial affairs of either of the two companies. The Chairman. Were you not conversant Avith the contracts exist- ing between those two companies? Mr. ]\Ien()(_'AL. I never saw them. The Chairman. Well, you knew in general terms what contracts had been made? Mr. Menocal. I knew contracts had been made, but I never saw them. My connection with this enterprise, Mr. Chairman, is entirely profes- sional, and 1 have a small interest pecuniarily. The Chairman. I am not pursuing that Hue, however, for any other purpose than to elucidate from you, if I can, the fact that you knew of the character of the management between the two companies. Mr. Menocal. 1 never saw the contract. I only knew what I have stated to the committee frankly, that so far as I know, these contracts involved a certain arrangement by which the Construction Company Avas to be paid in what I call securities, both bonds and stock; but how much, and in what proportion, in what amounts, and at what time I do not know. I never investigated it or bothered myself about it, as I had nothing to do with such affairs. Tlie Chairman. Do you not know generally that there was a contract by which the Maritime Company was to turn over to the Construction Company all of its assets, both boiuls and stock? Mr. ^Ienocal. 1 could not answer that question positively; but I have an impression that it was not all the assets. How nuich it was I do not know. I never saw the contract, but I have the impression tliat a certain aiuount was to be retained by the ]Maritime Conq)any, but how much I do not know. The Chairman. Y'ou made the negotiations between the Maritime Com[>any and the States of Nicaragua and Costa Kica? Mv. .^lENOCAL. Xo, sir; I did not. The ^laritime Company was not in existence at the time. I made these negotiations for an association which started among four or five friends, who were interested in the canal, and they raised a certain sum of money. I will tell you how nnich it was. There was .$300,000 contributed, each one putting in $5,000 and in some cases the shares of $5,000 were divided into sub- shares of $1,000 each, and so they raised this amount of $300,000. NICARAGUA CANAL. 321 With this sum of $300,000 I was requested to go to Nicaragua and get a concession and to Costa Eica afterwards. The Chairman. Did you procure the concession for the sum of $300,000! Mr. Menocal. No, sir. The Chairman. What more were they to get? Mr. Menocal. What, sir? The Chairman. What in addition to the $300,000 were you to give those two States for the concession ? Mr. Menocal. I only gave the Government of Nicaragua $100,000. Later on I paid the Government of Nicaragua $50,000 for the right of way between the lake and the Pacific, which was provided for in the concession. One of the conditions of the concession was to the effect that the company, when organized, and after work was commenced, was to pay to the Government of Nicaragua $50,000 for the right of way between the lake and the Pacific. The Chairman. Were those two sums, $100,000 and $50,000, the total consideration to be paid to Nicaragua? Mr. Menocal. That is all I paid. The Chairman. Was there anything reserved — were you to pay anything more? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; not by the terms of the concessions, except a certain amount of stock. The Chairman. What was that? Mr. Menocal. Six per cent. The Chairman. Was that agreement made at the time of securing the concession? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; those were the conditions of the concession, that the company would turn over to the Government of Nicaragua C per cent of its stock and to Costa Eica 1^ per cent, if I remember right. The Chairman. Was that stock ever delivered? Mr. Menocal. Well, I have to say about that that I do not know. The Chairman. You have never delivered it? Mr. Menocal. I never delivered it personally. The Chairman. Have j^ou any knowledge upon the subject that ena- bles you to form an opinion ? Mr. Menocal. Only an opinion. I am not prepared to show you that it was delivered, but I have an opinion formed that the stock was sent to Nicaragua to the agent of the company to be delivered to the Government of Nicaragua, but what became of it, whether it was actually delivered, or where it is, I do not know; but I have the imj^res- sion from conversations that I heard in the offices in New York, and also what the agent himself told me, that this stock had been sent to him to be delivered to the Government of Nicaragua. The Chairman. Do you remember when that was? Mr. Menocal. That must have been, sir, between 1889 and 1890, within those two years, but I coald not tell you exactly the date. From the time this agent remained in the country, I should suppose it was between 1889 and 1890. The Chairman. On the occasion when you were representing the expenditures made by the company to these commissioners of Nicara- gua, was the item of expenditure for the navigation of the river and lake included? Mr. Menocal. I think so. The Chairman. Do you remember what amount? N c 21 322 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Menooal. No, sir; I think tliat a sum of mouey was included in the expenditures for this i)urchase. The Chairman. What was the amount paid there for that right? Mr. ]Menocal. I liad nothing to do with that negotiation and I do not know that I have any right to say here how much it M'as, but I believe, for what my information is worth, it was $300,000. I had nothing to do with it. The OnAiiiMAN. Do you know who negotiated the contract? Mr. Menocal. The company in New York. I could not mention the names of anybody. I was not here at the time; I was in Nicaragua. Those are matters in which I never concerned myself. The Ohaiuman. At the time you were procuring this concession from Nicaragua was the fact that there was a grant in peri)etnity — an exclu- sive grant already made to parties to navigate the river and lake — known to you? Mr. INfENOCAL. Not in i)erpetuity. The Chairman. It was not in i:)erpetuity? Mr. ]\lENOCAL. No, sir. The Chairman. For what period? Mr. Menocal. I think the gentleman who had the grant liad four or live more years to run, and when the company atteui])ted to put steam tugs and lighters, etc., in the river he protested. The Govern- ment of Nicaragua sustained him in his claim that no one had the right to navigate the waters of the lake or river but himself until his contract expired. If you consult the concession, you will see there a stipulation to the effect that at the expiration of his privilege the Canal Conjpany would have the privilege of navigating all the waters of Nicaragua, not only navigation, but control. The Governments of Nicaragua and Costa Ilica gave the compauy the right to Hood public lands, dam streams, divert streams, raise the lake, to take possession of the country, and to build that canal as they wanted it. The whole country is turned over to the company with the only provision that such private lands as are damaged by the works of the company shall be paid for at their actual valuc\ That is the only restriction, but the company has the right to go on and flood the whole country if necessary. Mr. Stewart. Have you any interest pecuniarily, or otherwise than professional interest, in the canal project at the present time? Mr. Menocal. I have some interest in the company. IVfr. Stewart. To any large extent? ]\Ir. INlENOCAL. No, sir ; very little. These are private affairs. I have repeated here that I have an interest, and I always have had. I was one of the first promoters who obtained the concession. I have faith in the enterprise as being a great work, and my only ambition is to see it completed. If I had a million dollars to-day, I would put every cent of it in it. ]VIr. Stewart. My only object was to show your interest was a very small item, and therefore w^ould not control your judgment. Mr. IMenocal. It is only small because I am a poor man. If I had more, I would put it in it. Mr. Bennett. That lake and river navigation company whose fran- chise was afterwards assumed by the Canal Coup[)any began lioni what point on the lake to Avhat point on the river? ]Mr. Menocal. They had the right to navigate all the waters of the San Juan Kiver and Lake Nicaragua. Mr. Bennett. Is the stream navigable from Fort San Carlos to Grey town now? NICARAGUA CANAL. 323 Mr. Menocal. Not in the dry season. Mr. Bennett. In the wet season is it navigable? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; it is from six to eight months a year, depend- ent upon the rainfall, by stern wheel steamers, which generally draw about 3 feet. They go as far as Castilio in the rainy season without any transfer, and at Castilio they transfer to another river steamer, and on the lake to another steamer; so even in the rainy season, when the river is high, two transfers are necessary — one at Castilio and one at the lake. Mr. Bennett. Is there water communicatiou between the lake and the Pacific heref Mr. Menocal. No, sir. Mr. Bennett. That is not navigable? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. Mr. Bennett. These streams are not navigable? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; never have been. Mr. Corliss. How large is that little body of water indicated on the western side there? Mr. Menocal. It contains 4,050 acres in area. Mr. Bennett. It is more in the nature of a swamj)? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; it is a very fertile, beautiful valley; there is no swamp there. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I want to ask a few questions now. I would like to have the sense of the committee about this, whether they would like to have from Mr. Menocal a detailed history of the line he ran there, and take the whole subject up in its order as to what he did do while there, in detail, and a liistory of these surveys and examinations from top to bottom. If it is essential, in the opinion of the committee, why of course Mr. Menocal stands ready here to cover that entire ground, every foot of it, from Greytown Harbor to the lake, and from the lake to Brito, if that is thought to be advisable by the committee. That is a matter which occurred to me the other evening in speaking to him. The Chairman. What good will it do ? Mr. DooLiTTLE. I do not know what, I am sure. Mr. Joy. I will state that at one of the meetings of the subcommit- tee at which you were not present, and which took place at my house, that matter was gone into with some care, and it is embodied in a type- written report, which of course has not been corrected by Lieutenant Menocal, because he has not been here, but it can be used to avoid the consumption of time. I do not know it will cover the whole ground, but it was taken down and Mr. Menocal. I have surveyed the lower route, the upper route, the west side, and run lines myself personally. I have run trial lines on the west side and have made surveys of the river and have located the line along the banks of the river as far as Greytown; have made detail surveys of the streams of the San Juanillo in 187G, and then I ran a ])reliminary line in 1885 from Ochoa to Greytown, and from 1888 to 1891 1 almost lived on that ground. Mr. Stewart. Colonel Ludlow said you revised your estimates to conform with their estimates. Will you explain thaf? Mr. Menocal. I do not see how we could do that when I had not seen the estimate of the board. The estimate of the board was not made at the time. Colonel Ludlow. I made no such statement. Mr. Menocal. If that statement was made it is incorrect, because 324 NICARAGUA CANAL. this revised estimate was made before the board's report was made public. Colonel LiTDLOW. Colonel Ludlow Las made no estimate, if you please. Mr. Patterson. I understand there luive been two estimates made by Mr. Menoeal, and that he has revised in some respects the first esti- unite he made, and 1 have been confused a little bit in this way whether Mr. Miller in liis very lucid discussion of this matter based his remarks upon the first or the second estimate. Mr. Menocal. If the committee will allow me, I would like to say a few^ words in regard to that. The estimate has been revised three times. The Chairman. Give the dates of the three. Mr. Menocal. First in 1S89, when the original surveys were made and the borings had not been completed. That has not been printed and does not appear in the records. Then in 1890, after the borings were made, a revision was made and the estimate which I had made before in ISSO w^as noted "corrected to that date." Since that date we have made very extensive and very valuable examinations in Nicara- gua in connection with the sites of locks, embankments, and all that work which is necessary to perfect and complete the plans of the canal, the working drawings you may say, and these examinations were car- ried on up to the time when work was stopped. The last money spent by the company was to make diamond-drill borings at the site of Tola Dam. Mr. Stewart. Excuse me one moment; I want to make my state- ment fuller. Were your later estimates controlled by the estimates of the board? Mr. Menocal. The estimates of the board had not been made up to that time. Mr. Patterson. What is the date of your last estimate? Mr. Menocal. I think it is July, 1895. I will come to that if you will allow me to proceed in the order in which the matter has taken place. Mr. Patterson. Very well. Mr. Menocal. As I stated, we made extensive examinations of the site of the embankments and the dams, and made deep borings at the Tola Dam, and made numerous borings at the site of the three locks on the east side, and we prepared ourselves to make the final drawings. The estimates, which had been made up to that time, July, 1895, had been based only on the information we had up to the date of those estimates, and the last estimate made in 1895 is based on the data that had l)een accumulated uj) to that time. Now, in connection with that, it would be well for me to refer to the remarks which have been fre- quently made here — that the company have been unable to present to this board detailed drawings of all the w^orks proposed. That is very true. That statement is correct. We were not yet in a position to make those detailed drawings. They were to be made Avhen all the information had been gathered. They were to be the final drawings, on which the work was to be contracted for. In most cases we had the necessary information, but in others, not enough to satisfy me; and I was i)ro- ceeding with this investigation Avhen the work stopped in Nicaragua. The estimates were nnule, as I said, on the information obtained up to date, and as the work is mostly all excavation exce])t locks aiul dams, the estimafes for locks and dams were based on preliminary sketches, you may call them. A lock is a very simple thing to calculate approx- imately. You have the foundation, side walls, and gates. Those are NICARAGUA CANAL. 325 the principal parts, and any practical engineer when he knows the ground on whicli he is to build his work can come within a small per- centage of what it is going to cost and what amount of work he has to do. The estimated cost is a question of opinion and may differ greatly between engineers and contractors. These working drawings were not yet made, and when this board applied for them they were told frankly we did not have them. A number of them had been commenced, but not advanced sufficiently to enable me to jiresent them for the criticism of this board, as they were not yet perfected. Now, I am going to refer here to an instance to show you how prac- tical engineers generally proceed in a matter of that kind. I am going to refer to the construction of tlie enormous bridge that is now being- built over the East Eiver in New York, much larger than the present bridge, with a larger span, wider and much heavier, the whole struc- ture resting on two piers. Eminent engineers have made plans for that bridge and estimated the cost of it. These plans and estimates have been approved by the board of public works of the two cities. The cities have agreed to build this bridge on these plans and estimates, and a large sum of money has already been s^sent on the right of way and preparatory work. Work you may say has been commenced, and an eminent engineer has been put in charge of it. Only three weeks ago arrangements were made and borings were commenced at the sites of these piers; and as to final borings, to ascertain at what depth the rock ledge lies on which the piers are to rest, np to the middle of last week only one had been sunk to the depth of 70 feet below high water mark, where they think a solid ledge of rock will be found. That is the only possible way to do work of that kind, and one would be a poor engineer if he does not change his plan if he sees an opportunity to do so to advantage. Mr. DooLiTTLE. To the advantage of the work? Mr. Menocal. Certainly. He would be a poor engineer if he does not sleep over his plans, exerting his mind on the best methods to over- come the difliculties constantly arising in works of this kind, and dur- ing the night something may occur to him as to how best to do this, that, or the otlier, and it is his duty to do it. What engineer has under- taken a work of that kind that has not introduced changes in it? 1 would like to see one. You can design a bridge that rests on two rocky bluffs, and of course design at the start braces and counter- braces and upper and lower cords, etc. — in fact, every part of the struc- ture — but that is a fixed piece of mechanical work which you can locate and work out in detail beforehand and definitely. But when you have to deal with the excavation of rivers, swamps, and hills and difliculties connected with building dams, locks, etc., which an engineer can never foresee exactly in all and every detail, he would be a very poor engineer if he does not change his plans when he can do so to the advantage of the work. Very Avellj that is what I have done and what I will do again. This plan presented here as my plan of the OchoaDam is an obsolete plan. It is merely a sketch made when we had not yet made borings at the site of the dam. It has no value whatever. It was not given to this board as the plan of the Ochoa Dam, and the board had no right to bring it here, because they were told it was not a final plan for the dam, but a preliminary study. It may be very true, as they say, that they had great difficulties in estimating for that dam and other'works pro])osed, but that is their business, not ours. If they can not esti- mate with sufficient approximation for a lock, after we give them a 326 NICARAGUA CANAL. foundation for tliat lock, as sliowii by numerous boringvS — well, they ouji'lit to. Mr. Patterson. There is just one question in that connection that I desire to ask you. You heard Senator Miller's statement before the committee yesterday, 1 suppose, and a good deal was said about prop- ositions that were submitted here by Mr. Treat? Mr. Mknocal. Yes, sir. INIr. Patterson. And then about estimates made and concurred in by jMr. Donaldson, an Englisli engineer! Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; I heard that. JMr. Patterson. Now, was the proi)osition submitted by Mr. Treat based upon the estimate of 1895 or the estimate of ISDO? Mr. Menocal. You can see by the date of the proposition that it was made on the estimate of 1890. Mr. Patterson. And Mr. Donaldson made his estimate on the 1890 basis? Mr. Menocal. Certainly; the date will show that. There is another question wliicli has been brought uj) here, and a great deal lias been said about it, and that is about the hydraulic data and the rainfall. It is said about the hydranlic data we bad not enough. They have been trying to make me appear in a false light befor(?this committee because I had stated before that we had information enough to enable me to arrive at conclusions as to the effect which the flow of the streams and the rainfall would have on the work which we had pro])Osed in Nicara- gua. Now, you will find in my Avritten statement that this hydraulic data, to be of any value, would liave to be observed for a long number of years. The rainfall of one, two, three, or four years is not going to give very much light. The observation of years may be entirely uj)set by the results obtained in the last year. There are only two things we have to consider in this case — the mini- mum and maxinmm flow of the river. We know sufiticiently close what the minimum flow is. That is what will guide us in determining how much water we can use to work the canal in the dry season, and even that is very much in doubt, because when we raise the OchoaDam and increase the flooded area and create a larger reservoir we will have a larger lake to draw from. No engineer has ever questioned the propo- sition that we have water enough in this immense lake of 2,700 square miles and the additional lake created by the flooded area to work that canal. Then as to the maximum, I have ascertained that as far as it has been possible to do so. There has been only one large flood in Nicaragua while I have been there that I have been able to observe, and that was in 1889. It was gauged not by myself, but by my assist- ant engineers, and it was well and accurately done. While I have that gauging, I know the river rises considerably more. There are indications that it rises more than shown by that gauging. For that reason I have taken the result of that gauging and increased it by 50 per cent. Then in proportioning weirs for the discharge of the surplus waters, which we may have to disi)ose of in the rainy season, we i)ro- vide for double that amount; that is to say, that instead of 00,000 cul)ic feet per second we have provided for 120,000 cubic feet, with a maximum fluctuation of 4 feet over weir crest, a fluctuation which is inevital)Ie. Now, this question of controlling the river and lake, of course, is a problem on which engineers will differ, and it is useless to bring it up here. I think it can be done inside of 2 feet. Now, the rise of the river has been represented here as an enormous rise of 21 feet or 20 feet at NICARAGUA CANAL. 327 Maclmca Eapids, and at other places of 12, 14, and 15 feet. Let that be. What does it show? That water always rises suddenly after a heavy rainfall or even after a moderate rainfall at the rapids. There is a contraction of the cliannel where that elevation was taken in the river, where the width of the river is less than half the averaji'e. There is a stream coming into the river San Juan at that very point at rigiit angles to it, not a very large stream, but a vSmall torrent, that comes from the very higii mountains, and there is also an island in the center of that narrow gorge, and consequently an accumulation takes place there which is inevitable. Such an accumulation takes place at the foot of all rapids. At the head of the same rapids the rise probably was not 10 feet, and there is a series of rapids from Toro to Machuca, where the river can not assume any regular regimen. It is changing there all the time on account of the rapids, buttake it above the Toro Rapids, where the river has an even inclination, uniform banks, with even elevation and a regular regimen, and there you will find that the river does not rise more than we have stated, or very little more. In that section the river is changing constantly, and nobody can say how high or how low it will be from day to day, but it certainly can not rise 8, 10, or 20 feet, because in such a case the river would be running upstream toward the lake. You get the river to rise above 8 or 9 feet, and it would run back to the lake instead of running down. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Are you through with that? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I wish you would state to the committee when it was you became an officer of the Government, in what year? Mr. Menocal. In 1872 I was employed by the Government to com- mence the surveys. I was commissioned as an officer of the Govern- ment on the 25th of July, 1874. Mr. DOOLITTLE. Will you state to this committee what works you have had charge of since that time? Mr. INlBNOCAL. I have been making all the explorations in that coun- try to develop and design this canal -route, and up to the time I found this route no engineer had ever jjroposed a canal there except by fol- lowing the bank of the river. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But I am asking you now about what Government work you have done? Mr. Menocal. That was a part of Government work. When I made that survey of 1885 I was working for the Government. When I made the survey of the west coast of the lake I was under orders of the Gov- ernment. I also made surveys for the Panama Canal as chief engineer, as an officer of the JSTavy in charge of the exi^lorations. I was ordered to the Paris Congress where the question as to which was the best route for the canal across the isthmus was considered; I was sent there as one of the commissioners for the United States Government. During all the time in which I have not been in Nicaragua I have been actively engaged in works here done under the Navy Department in the con- struction of dry docks, piers, and the gun shops at Washington, which I designed and built myself, and in addition to those duties I had been engaged for eight years as consulting engineer in the Kavy Depart- ment, a position which Mr. Endicott holds to-day. I held that position before he was ordered to that duty. Mr. DOOLITTLE. In what year were you in the same position now occupied by Mr. Endicott? Mr. jVIenocal. For seven or eight years previous to his detail. When 1 was given leave of absence to go to Nicaragua to take the position as 32 S NICARAGUA CANAL. chief engineer of this canal company, I reqnested to be detached from that duty, and Mr. Endicott was then ordered to take the place which I had occupied for seven or eight years. Since then I have been con- stantly at work. I have been ordered by the Government to numerous boards to solve difficult questions of engineering. I have designed a good many important works for the Navy Department which have been carried out, and I have now fourteen or iifteen contracts to look after for building docks, dry docks, etc., at the navy-yard, New York. Mr. Stewart. What time did Davis go to Nicaragua? Mr. Menocal. He was tirst employed by me to go to Nicaragua at the end of 1887. Then, again, 1 employed him to go back there in 1889, I think. Mr. Stewart. You made surveyings and borings too? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; Mr. Davis was one of the late arrivals. I started the surveys in 1872, and Mr. Davis did not go to Nicaragua for the first time until 1887. Mr. Corliss. You spoke of the bridge which is to be built at New York. Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. Mr. Corliss. Was that project undertaken by those cities and the money appropriated upon estimates alone, or were detail plans prepared upon which Mr. Menocal. Well, there were preliminary plans for the super- structure and piers. The superstructure may remain as it was origi- nally designed ; but the plans for the i)iers for the sup])ort of the whole superstructure, of course, will not be made until borings h.ave been made, and that is being done now, and the first one was sunk only last week to a depth of 70 feet. Mr. Corliss. Was not the character of the earth and rock well known in the locality? Mr. Menocal. It was estimated approximately. They had some borings made with an auger and found something they thought to be rock, and they made their calculations accordingly, and they may have increased the estimates by a large percentage to provide for contin- gencies. But the fact remains that after this work had been projected and plans completed for the superstructure, and actual work com- menced, they are now sinking rock-drill borings to determine the depth of the rock ledge. I think Mr. Bennett, from Brooklyn, knows that very well, and one can see every day in the Brooklyn Eagle to what depth they are reaching. They went down so many feet and passed rock and struck clay, and then rock again, until they came to rock which they believed to be a rock ledge 70 feet below high-water mark. Mr. Corliss. Do you know of work that has been undertaken by l)rivate enterprise involving so large a sum of money without full detail plans before the investment of capital in it! Mr. Menocal. That is generally the case, except, of course, when you have a building or a work that is concentrated, when there is no reason why you should not prepare all details before work is com- menced. But an examination is generally made by engineers sufticient in detail to satisfy them that the work is practical and can be done within a certain limit of cost, and then unknown quantities are provided for by a percentage for contingencies, as I have done in this case. I have added 25 per cent on the original estimates, and in the last estimate I reduced it to 20 per cent, for the reason that we have gained so much information over what we had before, and the methods of doing work NICARAGUA CANAL. 329 of tlie kind we have to do in Nicaragua have been so greatly improved in connection with the excavation on the Cliicago Drainage Canal and other works of a similar kind, that it would be almost improper, I should say, for an engineer to repeat or to adopt the same prices he thought sufficient six or seven years ago. If an engineer thought that $1.50 per cubic yard for rock excavation was a fair price ten years ago, why he ought to know that the methods which have been invented since and put in successful oi)eration Avould enable him to reduce his esti- mates in proportion to the advances which have been made in the science of engineering. Mr. Corliss. What is the total amount of your estimate for this entire project ? Mr. Menocal. I thiidv the last estimate, with 20 per cen t added, comes to some 169,000,000 or $70,000,000. Mr. Patterson. And is in round figures $70,000,000? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir; about that. Mr. Corliss. That is on a plan of a canal with only 70 feet in width at the locks? Mr. Menocal. Seventy feet at the locks, and the whole canal is 120 feet in the earth sections, 100 in the rock sections, and 125 in the river, and 150 feet in the lake. Mr. Corliss. Have you made any estimates of the cost at the width suggested of 90 feet? Mr. Menocal. No, sir. It is very easy, it is a comparatively small sum of money, which will be more than covered by the 20 per cent added to the cost itself. It is a \ ery small amount in proportion. I do not think it would be more tlum 10 per cent, or something of that kind, of the estimated cost of the locks. Mr. Patterson. Now, the board of commissioners appointed by the President have made suggestions in regard to various changes which they think ought to be made in the general plan of the construction of this canal. For instance, that the locks ought to be larger, that the river ought to be deeper and wider, that the channel cut out in the lake ought to be wider, and various other changes which are more readily suggested to your mind than mine. Have you made any calcu- lations now based upon those premises as to what will be the cost of the canal? Mr. Menocal. No, sir; I have not. I suppose the calculations of the board are correct. I have treated this question of changes in my original paper, and as I have stated I believe the computations of the board to be correct. Mr. Patterson. The estimate of the board, I believe, is $13,3,000,000 ? Mr. Menocal. If I remember correctly, it is, and I suppose their cal- culations are correct. Whether the changes are desirable or not depends upon circumstances, but I have no doubt the figures are correct, and they have also corrected an error which was made in our estimates on the amount of excavation in the river. The error was transferred from one of the Government's reports to the comijany's estimate. The com- pany adopted the Government report in estimating for work on the river, and the amounts contained in that report of 1885 were merely transferred. Do you follow me? They were transferred from the Gov- ernment report of 1885 to the company's estimate. There was an error made in transferring this estimate of 1885 and it went into print in that way; the error was not discovered, and when the commission were examining our figures and verifying them they discovered this error, which I admit, and the estimates of the company must be corrected to meet that discrepancy. 330 NICARAGUA CANAL. Mr. Patterson. In saying yonr estimate is $70,000,000, is tliat 25 per cent added? Mr. Menocal. This last estimate, as I stated, provides for 20 per cent, and in tlie previous estimate it was 25 per cent. ]VIr. DooLiTTLE. With tlie 20 per cent added it makes $70,000,000? Mr. Menocal. About; in that vicinity. Mr. DooLiTTLE. AVliat iier cent did tlie board add? Mr. Menocal. I think 20 per cent. Mr. Patterson. And by adding 20 per cent they reached $133,000,000? Mr. Menocal. Yes, sir. Mr. Patterson. So there is a difference between you and the board of 863,000,000? Mr. JMenocal. Yes, sir. Mr. Corliss. Assuming that the plan and the changes suggested by the Commission were adopted as to enlarging and extending the work, in your judgment, what would the entire project cost? Mr. ^NlENOCAL. I have not figured it. Mr. Corliss. Do vou think it AvcKild reach the sum they have esti- mated? Mr. Menocal. It is very simple to compute, and the commission's figures I think are correct. I have no reason to doubt them, and apply- ing my prices to the dimensions proposed by tliem it would be very easily arrived at. Mr. DOOLITTLE. But your prices do not agree with the commission's? . Mr. ]\Ienocal. ^o, sir. Tliey do not in most cases. ]\[r. Corliss. This jn-oposition of Mr. Treat read by Senator Miller yesterday was based upon your plan? Mr. Menocal. Y"es, sir; my plan and estimate for prices. Mr. Corliss. So if the plan adopted by the commission was approved it would increase the expenses $33,000,000? ]\rr. Patterson. $63,()OI>,000. Mr. Menocal. It would increase it considerably. Mr. Corliss. Over and above the estimate of Mr. Treat? ]\rr. JMenocal. Not quite the same amount, because Mr. Treat has agreed to do the work at a less price, based on my estimate. Tlio quantities may be changed, you see, but the unit price, as 1 understand, of .\[r. Treat will be about the same as mine. Mr. Corliss. Put Mr. Treat's proposition to build the entire canal was on your plan? Mr. ^NIenocal. Y'es, sir. Colonel Ludlow. What date? Mr. Corliss. It was rend here yesterday. Mr. :Menocal. Of 1800, and not 1805. Mr. CoRLLSS. I understand that. I am going to add that. So we have no proposition trom Mr. Treat to construct this canal throughout of the capacity as suggested by the commission? Mr. jNIenocal. No, sir. Mr. Patterson. We have no propositions coming from Mr. Treat to construct the canal upon estimates submitted by you in 1805? Mr. Mi'^.NOCAL. No, sir. Colonel Ludlow. Before you adjourn I would say I would be glad to have the indulgence of the committee for the matter of an hour at your convenience. Mr. DOOLITTLE. ^Ir. Chairman, I shall object, very decidedly. This Commission came belore this committee with their report. Tlien there was a reply by Senator Miller, and also by Mr. Menocal. Then these NICARAGUA CANAL. ool g'cntlonicii came here and liave consumed a j^reat deal of time, and they liave i^one over this subject veiy tlioroughly and brou.iibt out some entirely new matters in their fresh verbal statements before this committee. Now, then, in simple rebuttal of those statements, it was asked that Senator Miller and Mr. Menocal appear before the commit- tee to close their rebuttal, which they did. Now, then, if there is to be a surrebuttal, and a rebuttal added to that, and all the time taken up by these gentlemen, of course the labors of this committee are never going to close and we will never be finished. Of course, if Colonel Ludlow here is jiermitted to appear again and produce new matter,why then we should have to have Senator Miller and Mr. ]\Ienocal again. If they disclose new matter we have to liave Colonel Ludlow again, and after Colonel Ludlow, Senator Miller and Mr. Menocal again. I move you, Mr. Chairman, that the committee declare the hearings closed on the subject of Nicaragua Canal Conipany. Colonel Ludlow. May I have the indulgence of tlie committee for two minutes, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Patterson. Mr. Chairman, I will just say this. So far as I am concerned, I am very anxious to arrive at the truth of this matter. These gentlemen who have been discussing this matter are professional gentlemen, they have some differences of opinion about it, they both represent the Government. I think both the Commission and Mr. Men- ocal may be professi(uially biased, as all gentlemen are. I know wher- ever I am professionally interested I am biased more or less; but they are honorable gentlemen, and they are trying to present the truth of this case, and so far as I am concerned I would be very glad to hear Mr. Menocal make any further statement before this committee which occurs to him, and I would be very glad to hear Colonel Ludlow make any statement that occurs to him; and I want to say now, that if this committee allows Colonel Ludlow to come before it and make an addi- tional explanation, and anything should occur to which Mr. Menocal would like to reply, he should have the opportunity, so far as I am concerned. This is a very great proposition. It is one involving very great inter- ests, and one that is very fascinating to me. There is no man around this board who wants to see the Nicaragua Canal constructed more than I do, and no man feels more disposed to study the proposition and to arrive at the truth of it than I am, but, so far as I am concerned, I am no engineer. I have looked upon what these g:entlemen say very much as a juror would, weighing it as best I can and seeking to arrive at a conclusion that I think will be satisfactory to the American i)eople and the public interests, and if Colonel Ludlow desires to make a fur- ther statement before this committee I insist that he ought to have the opportunity to do it, and in that connection I want to say that if any- thing occurs to which Mr. Menocal, who is here, would like to reply at the same session I want him to make any exi^lanation or any further suggestions, or any other comment which may occur to him. That is the way I feel about it, and I want these gentlemen to feel that they have had the fullest opportunity of discussion and the fullest o]>portu- nity of explanation. Now, something may have occurred to Colonel Ludlow in the progress of this discussion this evening which has not occurred to any member of the committee. He is a professional man and we are not, and if he desires to make any further statement before the committee I think that the interests of the public service require we should hear him. That is my idea about that, Mr. Sherman. 1 move that we go into executive session, and we have the right to decide what further we shall do by ourselves. 332 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Tatdlow. Before puttiiijic tliat motion- Mr. Sherman. Mr. Cliairiiiiiii, I liave moved- Colonel Ludlow. Will you permit me to briefly state our position in the matter; I will simply state our position and leave tlie matter with tlie committee'^ The Chairman. I think we understand that. Mr. Sherman. I ask that my motion be put. The Chairman. It is moved that the comiuittec now go into exec- utive session. The motion was adopted, and therefore the committee went into executive session. Thursday, May 7, 1896. The Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce this day met, Hon. William P. Hepburn in the chair. STATEMENT OF COL. WILLIAM LUDLOW— Resumed. Colonel Ludlow. Mr. Chairman and gentleman of the committee, I have no desire to jirotract this hearing unduly, or to take up the time of the committee here in any way, but there were some points in con- nection with the testimony given by Mr. Miller and Mr. Menocal which I regard as very important and which I think the committee will also think important and M'hicli I desire to submit as a part of the record. I will take them up, if yon please, and treat the matter as brieflj' as may be. In regard to what Mr. Miller may have said personally about me I will not trouble the committee. I recognize that there is a considera- ble disparity between Mr. Miller's views and my own as to what might be considered decent or proper conduct for an officer in the service or out of it, but I am content to leave the gap unfilled. We have our own criterion of those matters, and from our point of view for an officer in the service or any other responsible position, one duty is to tell the trnth and to wrong no man, and I have always endeavored to follow that. Whatever the contrast may be between that view and others it is not for me to indicate. I will now take np the technical matters, but there is a point to which I wish to refer at the same time, as having a personal relation, which is in reference to Mr. Davis, for the introduction of whose name in this matter I am responsible; and I should regret it extremely that Mr. Davis should suffer in any wise, and the only satisfaction that I have about the accusations made against him is that they give me an oppor- tunity very promptly to refute them. I have submitted to the commit- tee Mr. Davis's record when he was an officer of the Canadian Pacific Eailroad Company, and the committee is in possession of the testimonial presented to him by the direction of the road as a mark of very distin- guished services. I have submitted his record while in the employ of the District government, in which the responsible officials here, for years thoroughly cognizant of Mr. Davis's services, unhesitatingly testify to his ability and integrity, and declare their judgment of Mr. Davis as an individual whose assertion they would not hesitate to accept. That carries the matter down to the period of his employment by the canal company. Of this Mr. Davis did not tell us much, except as we inci- dentally gathered it, but we had no reason to believe he was in any other sense than a trusted and capable employee of the company. He cer- tainly occupied a very responsible position under them, and if my recollection is not at fault, he was retained almost until the close, and that the final severance of his relation with the company was made NICARAGUA CANAL. 333 upon liis own resignation; that be had resigned while still employed in a very responsible position there. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Did you not hear Senator Miller state here that he was discharged'! Colonel Ludlow. Yes; and I heard Senator Miller say other things here, Mr. Doolittle. There is no evidence of that fact here submitted, however, either by Mr. Miller or by Mr. Menocal. It would have been easy to secure a certitication of that fact, if it were one. Mr. Doolittle. I do not know that Senator Miller's word needs a certification. Colonel Ludlow. I know this: He was employed until a very late day by the company in a responsible position, and they had imposed upon him double duties down there. I have endeavored to refresh my recollection about what I had learned about it, and I understand that he believed that he was entitled to an increase of salary from the com- pany in consequence of the extra duties imposed upon him; and the company acceded generally to the equity of his demand, but was unable to fulfill it, and Mr. Davis, believing that he had been promised com- pensation, and the com^jany withholding it, took some legal means to ])rocure it Mr. Doolittle. In which he failed in the courts? Colonel Ludlow. That I know nothing about; but as to whether a man should or should not resort to legal methods to get what he believed he should have is certainly not any imputation upon his integ- rity, and I desire for my own part to say in behalf of myself and my colleagues, who were associated with Mr. Davis, day in and day out, for six months, that we are just as convinced as any men could be by knowledge gained by a very close and intimate connection with him that the man is absolutely honest, that he is capable, and of a sturdy integrity which I do not think could be shaken by any means. Mr. Doolittle. Do you not think you have used that man Davis with all the force that you can use him for the impeachment of Mr. Menocal without further bolstering? Colonel Ludlow. I am responsible for the introduction of Mr. Davis's name, and he has been gratuitously assailed, and if you will permit me to complete my remarks Mr. Doolittle. If you feel now the point of your instrument is blunted, I think the time has passed by for the sharpening of it for the purposes of this case. Colonel Ludlow. Not at all. I think, Mr. Chairman, if you please, I should prefer to continue my remarks. If Mr. Doolittle has anything pertinent to say, he has had all the time he wanted, and I have no doubt the committee will give him as much more as he wants, but I do not want him to take mine. Mr. Doolittle. You are simply appearing before the committee at the request of the committee Colonel Ludlow. I represent the United States Government. Mr. Doolittle (continuing). And I happen to be a member of the committee and have my rights and propose to stand by them, and you shall not trample over them, Avith all your toi)heaviuess The Chairman. I submit that is not in order. Colonel Ludlow. I thank you ; I have no right to call anyone to order, nor do I think the committee as a whole or anybody will accuse me of any lack of courtesy to anybody personally. I represent the Govern- ment of the United States here. I represent the Board of Mcaraguan Canal Engineers, ai)pointed pursuant to an act of Congress and appointed by the Executive, and the members of the board here have been treated 334 NICARAGUA CANAL. ill every respect by tlie eoiiiniittec with tliat consideration niid courtesy witlioutAvliicli our duties, dil'licult enoujih in any case, would have been absolutely impossible, and yet wehavefroiu time to time been put in the position as if Ave were somewhat in the nature of recalcitrant witnesses from whom the truth had by some means to be extracted. We repre- sent the Government of the United States. Mr. Doolittle says he is a member of this committee, and of course he is. What interest does he represent here other than the same interest*? ]\Ir. Doolittle. And I will tell j'ou if you desire to know, since you have asked the question, that I represent the interests of my constitu- ents and as an accredited llepresentative in Congress. Colonel Ludlow. That is quite true. Mv. Doolittle And that is the only interest I represent here. If you desire to make any further rellections, of course you are fully at liberty to do so, doubtless. Colonel Ludlow. Is that part of the public record"? Mr. Wangek. I hoj)e it is not. Colonel Ludlow. It is a little unseemly and undignified, and I do not advocate it. JNlr. W^ ANGER. I suggest we go back Colonel Ludlow. I challenge in this room, or out of it, anyone to say that in any respect I have failed in all due courtesy to everyone connected with this matter, both in our published report and in all the public utterances we have made here. Such personalities as have been introduced into this discussion have been brought in by others than ourselves. AVe have met them on the floor of this committee room, and we have taken means to refute them, and I believe I am justilied in doing so, and that the public will uphold us in the doing. We do not propose to have the dignity and importance of this matter discredited to a mere altercation. I will continue, Mr. Chairman, what I had to say about Mr. Davis The CnAiRMAN. Proceed. Colonel Ludlow (continuing). Because I want to finish that matter up. I wanted to say in behalf of the board, myself personally, and my colleagues, that we have absolute confidence in ]\Ir. Davis's cai)acity and integrity and we lind no reason to doubt it. That he having left the service of the company should be prepared to place his local knowledge of the physics and conditions there at our service was quite to be expected. He is an engineer and earns his living, and among the many a])plications with which we were Hooded we selected those whom we thought would be the most useful to us. Mr. Davis's services down there were sim]>]y inestimable. He knew the country and what to do and how to do it. W^e think we sluudd have been almost helpless with- out him. He knew how to take instructions and how to fullill our pur- l)oses, and such information as he had of the country and of nuitters connected with this canal i)rqject was entirely at our disposal, and so far as I know he betrayed no secret, if a com])any can have secrets. He betrayed no secrets to my knowledge at alk His accex)tance of service with u»s was in no sense improper. Now, departing from that, we get down to the technical matters. Mr. Miller introduced testimony here before this committee which is of the first imi)ortance. I think it is the most inq)ortant to the ]»roject that has been made by the gentlemen representing that side. He sub- mitted here propositions from responsible men, contractors and others, ■who are jn-epared to do this work, and these statements were submitted in Justification of the statenu'iits which have been re[)eatedly made by the comx)auy that those contractors stood by ready to do this work. I NICAEAGUA CANAL. 335 "wish we liad lind tliis inforniatiou sooner, but we will investigate a little and see wliat it is and what it means. 1 Lave only rough notes, if you like, of wiiat Mr. Miller said, and I will have to depend somewhat uj)ou my recollection. I liave not had access to his testimony, and I have not yet to my own, but I will go ou with the material that I have been able to i)repare with the assistance of my colleagues. Mr. Miller submitted a i)roposition from Mr. Treat to construct the western division of this work for $31,000,000, and to guarantee results to the extent of digging it li8 feet deej) from the Pacific Ocean to uj) here on the lake. There is a distiiict and lormal proposition of the first order of consideration. Mr. Treat is a person whose pro]iosition must be treated with consideration. He is a man of repute and of success in his work, and what he. proposes to do he pro])oses to do, knowing his own responsibility and i>repared to back it. Xow, what is the nature of this proposition? Mr. Treat's price lor this whole canal on the western division is $31,000,000. That is submitted as a verification of the state- ment made by the company that contractors are prejDared to accept the engineer's prices, quantities, and estimates. It does not appear so, IMr. Chairman. The moment you look at these figures you find, instead of verifying the rather vague and somewhat uncertain propositions of the company, they, as a matter of fact, very distinctly and clearly vindicate and justify the unit ])rices and quan- tities adopted by the Board, and we are the more pleased to have it because that is absolutely the fact. The cost of the western division of the canal, according to the company's estimate of 1895, adds up $21,500,000 taking tlie low level line, disregarding the other, making a diflerence in that respect; but, taking the low level line, the company's estimate for the western division is $i!l,500,000, to which 20 per cent of contingencies is to be added, making a total esiual to about $25,000,000. The Board's estimate for that same work is $28,000,000, to which is to be added 20 per cent for contingencies, and you get the result of $32,000,000. Mr. Treat's estimate is $31,000,000. It is approximately 50 per cent larger than the estimate of the company, aiui it is quite evident that Mr. Treat's unit of prices must have been somewhat larger than those which the Board adopted in its own preliminary estimate. But there is another point back of this again, Mr. Chairman, which still further illustrates the importance of this proposition. Mr. Treat's proffer is made on the basis of quantities and prices of 1890. No esti- mate of 1895 had at that time been made. Ue had put in his hands, doubtless, the published report of the company for 1890, and that was his basis for estimating. ISTow, as a matter of fact, the company has varied very greatly this i)rqject between the dates of 1890 and 1895, and it has like\\ ise varied its prices. Mr. Treat apparently Avas led to believe that he was working upon the latest project of the company, whereas, as a matter of fact, it had been materially modified, both by increasing the quantities and diminishing the unit prices. Now, Mr. Treat's proposition to build the entire canal for $110,000,000 has to be discussed. I need only remark that in considering Mr. Treat's proposition to construct the entire canal for $100,000,000 this estimate IS made generally upon the 1890 data, and he says that the borings on the east divide show solid rock. Now, that is a point about which, per- haps, it is very important to know. I may state, first, that with regard to the east divide the company had provided for a cut of only 80 feet wide at that time. The later proposition of 1895 is a cut of 100 feet wide, a very wise and judicious increase, but the results of that increase do not show. Mr. Treat is bidding upon a cut of 80 feet, and not of 100 feet. Furthermore, he is bidding upon a cut to be made in solid 336 NICARAGUA CANAL. rock, based, of course, upon the coini)imy's data and the company's statement tliat that was the material to be handled. Now, I liap})en to have the report made by the geologist of the United States Geological Survey, addressed to the second vice-president of the company, dated June 19, 1891. Major Button had made an investigation of the geological conditions on the Isthmus Avith a view of ascertain- ing or reporting to the company whether or not volcanic or earthquake phenomena would imperil the construction of this work, and as to which he was able to report that, in his judgment, it would hot. That judg- ment has been further confirmed by Professor Pittier, of Costa Rica, who came to the same conclusion, but Major Dutton was not satisfied with the investigation that he was able to make personally, and was not quite satisfied as to the real nature of the samples of rock which were shown him as having been taken from that east divide, and he therefore took means to have the samples submitted to a geologist in order to have the character more fully ascertained and examined under the microscope, and Mr. Iddmgs reports as follows : Department of the Interior, United States Geological Survey, Washington, D. C, June 19, 1891. Mr. George W. DA\as, Second Vice-President Nicaragua Canal Construction Company. Dear Sir: Your favor of lotli instaut received, the specimens of rock submitted to me by Major Duttou have been made into thin sections and submitted to an exam- ination under the microscope. They prove all to be volcanic material, more or less unaltered. Some are quite decomposed and soft. Major Duttou wished to know Avhether they would turn out to be massive blocks when excavated, or would form •iood-sized blocks. Of the eleven cores examined live are of compact, hard rock and six of decomposed and rather soft material. The accompauying memorandum gives the localities and name on profile, with the correct name ajipended. In tlie interest of science I should be glad to examine a more extended collection of cores from different parts and dejiths of the proposed cutting, if accompanied by proper labels as to their locality, more especially from the deeper borings where the rocks are fresher. Yours, very truly, Joseph P. Iddings, Geologist. Colonel Ludlow. Appended is a schedule which gives the character- istics of the rocks as determined by the geologist; and you will observe out of eleven samples received five are hard rock and six were decom- posed and of rather soft material : Label. Name. EAST DIVIDE. Boring at station 960-1-50, from depth of 159 to 160 feet 5 inches (called confilonicrate). Boring at station 895+40, strata 31 feet thiulc (called talc) Boring at station 905-|-30, from depth of 70 to 80 feet (called tra)) and conglomerate). Boring at station 913 + 50, from outcrop to depth of 32 feet 6 inches (cMlh'd talc). Boring at station '.133+35, from depth of 44 to 84 I'cet (called talc and dcconiiniscd rock). Boring at station 941 + 80, from dei)tli of 38 to 86 feet (called talc). Boring at stathm 941+80, from depth of 86 to 222 feet (called conglomerate). Boring at station 960+50, from depth of 75 to 100 feet (called slate). WEST DIVIDE. Boring No. 4 at station 243+32, from depth of 8 feet to 72 feet 6 inches (called conglomerate). Boring (J at station 306+«8, from depth of 2 to 38 feet (called telpetate). Boring 1 at station 370, from depth of 54 feet 6 inches to 63 feet (called slate on profile). Basalt; Compact and hard (like trap). Ande.site (pyroxene) : Partly decom- posed, soft and friable. Audesite (pyroxene) : Partly altered, compact, moderately hard. Dacite : With many grains of quartz ; compact, hard rock. Dacite (altered) : With grains of quartz ; rat lier soft rock. Dacite : Decomposed and soft. Dacite: Compact, rather hard. Basaltic ash : Soft, crumbling. Andesitic ash : Hardened, compact and hard. Andesitic a.sh: Altered, soft, crumb- ling. Andesitic ash: Altered, soft, crumb- ling. 2v! GTE. —Dacite is much like quartz-porphyry. Audesite is one of the commonest Iclnda of volcanig rocks in the Jlocky Mountains. NICARAGUA CANAL. 337 Colonel Ludlow. The board bad reason to believe, from an examina- tion of the borings, that there was a good deal of material there which might involve very serious question when it came to opening that deep cut through the rock, and the board believed it was of vital importance that numerous borings should be made tlirough that material, not only on the axis of the canal, but also adjacent to it and in the neighboring sides of it, in order to determine what would be the probable sloi)e at which it would stand. These questions are of the first importance. These contractors' propositions are based simply upon the comi)any's data without investigation. I want to explain to the committee, if you please, the additions which have been made to this project, and what will be the consequent eflFect upon Mr. Treat's proposition if he had made up his figures on that basis. The amendment needed would be approximately as follows : treat's proposition for eastern division, at lump sum of $31,000,000, TO PASS 28-FOOT SHIP. This proposition is avowedly made on the basis of the project of 1890. The company's estimate for this project, excluding right-of-way indemnity and the Tipi- Tapa Canal, is $17,150,417; to which should be added a contingency allowance of $4,287,604, making a total of $21,438,021. Mr. Treat's lump-sum proposition is about $10,000,000 more, or about 45 per cent increase. The company's project for 1895 calls for greatly increased quantities, which, if carried out at the 1890 prices, would amount to $25,072,272. Applying the same rate of increase to this amount, as applied by Mr. Treat to the amount of the estimate of 1890, viz, 45 per cent, the total would be $36,354,794, contingencies included. The estimate of the board for the same work, with the contingencies included, is $35,233,466, to which a small addition should be made for lights and buoys, making the total, however, less than that obtained by applying Mr. Treat's figures in the man- ner above noted. It is very clear, therefore, that Mr. Treat and the board must be assuming very nearly the same unit price. This would be expected, because the board adopted the unit price shown in the company's estimate of 1890, except the price for concrete, which the board increased considerably. On the other hand, Mr. Treat, while ostensibly using the same unit price, made numerous conditions, which practically amounted to an increase in unit prices. The correspondence is not, however, quite as close as above indicated, because the board found it necessary to increase the quantities at Brito Harbor and at the locks, and to provide back filling and other items for the locks which the company had omitted, or had made insufficient estimates for, so that the unit prices adopted by the board must have been less than those used by Mr. Treat in arriving at his total of $31,000,000, for which he used the quantities furnished him by the company in their estimate of 1890. Referring to Mr. Treat's proposition to build the entire canal for the lump sum of $100,000,000, it must be remembered that this applies tn the project and to the quan- tities of 1890. It would need amendment to apply at the present time. First. On account of the additions made to quantities in the company's revised project of 1895. This amounts, at the schedule of prices of 1890, which Mr. Treat undoubtedly refers to, to $14,100,000. If this were added to the amount of Mr. Treat's proposal, it would be $114,100,000. Second. Further additions should be made to cover the errors in the company's calculations of amounts of excavation in the San Juan River and Lake Nicaragua, which, at the company's schedule of 1890, amount to $7,150,000. These additions would make Mr. Treat's proposal $121,250,000. Third. If further allowance were made for a complete estimate for locks 80 feet in width, with the necessary back filling, concrete foundations, etc., for the increased height of embankments in the San Francisco Basin, and for an additional amount of excavation in the San Juan River and Lake Nicaragua to make channels of the width deemed necessary by the board, the total amount would be considerably in excess of the board's estimate. So that Mr. Treat's figures, instead of confirming the pres- ent estimate of the company, confirm, in fact, the estimate of the board. Colonel Ludlow. Kow, with reference to Mr. McDonald's proposi- tion, who made a bid for the construction of this canal for $70,000,000. I have not the figures before me, and they are subject to correction, but I believe it is $70,000,000. NO 22 338 NICARAGUA CANAL. This is also based uiiou the company's quantities of 1890, wliicli Lave been largely increased in tlic^ project of 18!)5, and require still further increase to constitute an adL'(iu;itc i)rqject, in the opinion of tlio board. His unit ])rice8 are, in most cases, hiylier than those of the board; notably, tlie price of $1.N0 ])er cubic yard for rock excavation, $2.40 lor earth under water (understood to apply to lock exca.vation), and $10 per cubic yard for concrete. If these prices were a2)}>liod to the board's (juan- tities the total would exceed, it is believed, the board's estiuuite. Air. McDonald's price for earth excavation— 50 cents per cubic yard — is a little less than that adopted by the board, but if the price of $2.40 per cubic yard apjdies to lock excavation, then Mr. McDonald's average price for earth excavation is undoubtedly larger than that of the board. Uut, as a whole, the ligures confirm in a remarkable way the board's unit prices. It appears from the above that the propositions read by Mr. Miller confirm the correctness of the board's unit i)rices, and that if there is any material difference, the board's prices are lower. It must be remembered that the lump-sum bids are on the basis of the company's estimates or quantities in their report of 18'J0, that they liave themselves since largely increased the quantities, and that a further increase is still necessary. Now, as to Mr. Bower's i)roi)Ositiou for dredging. His proposition, of course, is on the basis of 1890 data. bower's rROPOSAL FOK DREDGING. Bower's hydraulic dredge is a pump dredge, and its use would be impracticable in stifi' clay, heavy gravel, and bowlders. In the canal section near Greytown it Avould be necessary to remove the surface stumps, logs, etc., with some otlier jdant before employing this. Miller states that the actual cost of dredging at the Panama Canal was from 40 to 60 cents per cubic yard, and was half profit. If wo take the net cost at 20 to 30 cents, and add 20 ^er cent for profit, the figures will agree fairly w ell with those of the board. The company's quantities of 1895, at the prices of 1890, would make a total of $78,000,000. The board's quantities, at the company's schedule of 1890, would amount to $117,000,000. [Bennett noted a variation in the river at Ochoa of 14 feet 4 inches in the first three months of 1888. This is pertinent in view of what Miller said about the filling up, or backing up, or foot of rapids.] With further reference to one or two points in Mv. Miller's testimony, it is characteristic that whenever further consideration is given to the company's project it has an aptitude for varying. Mr. Miller put in two new propositions in the comi)any's project in his last statement. He stated, first, tliat the weirs in the Ochoa Dam were "of course" to be movable weirs. Well, the board has contended in its report that unless movable weirs were used, or sluices, or the equivalent of them, it wouhl be impossil)le to restrain the excessive rise of the lake in the wet season or to hold up the lake to its proposed summit level during the dry sea- son; but, if you please, the canal project not at any time or in any way or in any place, so far as Ave are aware, and we have gone pretty thor- oughly into the subject, has ever suggested that the weirs to be used on the top of the Ochoa Dam, or the weirs to be used in the Wan Carlos ridge, which is practically a continuation and an essential feature ot that dam, or any other weirs through which or by which, directly or indirectly, the discliarge of the surplus water was to be provided lor, were to be movable weirs. There is not the first hint or suggestion to that effect, and jve are pleased to see a corroboration of our own opin- ion in that respect by IMr. Miller's expression of belief that some such provision will be required. And there I might say en passant if that be done it will require a very considerable increase of the company's estimate of cost for that work. The estimate is based upon an absolutely fixed weir without anything moveable in it, and the construction of these moveable weirs of the dimensions which will be required in such case will amouut to a formi- NICARAGUA CANAL. 339 dable sum of money. The other novel proposition of Mr. Miller, novel in the literature of the comiiany, was that before anything should be done really, notwithstanding the acceptance and completion and per- fection of this project, betbre anything should be done, a board of con- sulting engineers should sit on the matter and thattlioy should be paid large salaries, and that their judgment with regard to technical nuitters of this kind would unquestionably be followed by the company. Mr. DooLiTTLE. Let me interrupt you and ask if anything was said in Mr. Miller's statement about large salaries being paid? Colonel Ludlow. If I am not extremely mistaken, there was some- thing said. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I think the notes will show he did not say anything with regard to salaries whatever, and when he spoke of the employ- ment of consulting engineers it was relative to those very important places which have been dwelt on by the board at Ochoa, and also over on the Brito side of the lake. Colonel Ludlow. I think Mr. Miller's own notes will show, and I do not pretend to any more than ordinary accuracy of recollection of things, but I listened to Mr. INIiller's testimony with great interest naturally, and I am quite satisfied he made some such remarks. Mr. DOOLITTLE. However, I do not think that is a matter of consid- erable importance. Colonel Ludlow. Then why not let it go without interruption 1 Mr. DOOLITTLE. Well, 1 thought it was of sufficient importance, of course, to call your attention to my understanding of the fact that he did not mention salaries. Colonel Ludlow. The stenographer's notes will show. I think, Mr. Chairman, if it would not be too much trouble for the stenographer, he might settle the matter at once. The Chairman. It would take time to do that. Colonel Ludlow. Very well. I have no disposition to take up the time of the committee. It is only this point that I want to make — the question of salaries is nothing — that a board of consulting engineers, if you please, have had this project under consideration, and within the last year. It was true that those enguieers were not appointed by the company and did not receive their instructions from the company. They were appointed by the Government of the United States and received their instructions from the Congress of the United States. That fact probably does not deprive the consideration of this subject by that board of weight, nor does it constitute any imputation against the thoroughness of their consideration or value of their conclusions. It seems that for some reason the comi^any, notwithstanding its ex- pressed willingness to accept the suggestions from a board of engineers of that character, distinctly repudiates them and objects seriously to the board having made them. It may be if we had been content or had had no objection to accei^t just such data as the company should furnish that we should have found ourselves in the same predicament as the Bogart board, which, as I quoted the other day, stated as a formal part of its report that the locks proposed by the company as shown by the borings were founded on rock. The company does not make that contention to-day, and no examination of the borings can have any other effect than to refute it. It might be interesting to inquire what borings these were which were submitted to this Bogart board in New York and ujwn which they make the statement that the borings submitted to them showed the locks to be founded on rock. As to this project, it is fair to say, Mr, 340 NICARAGUA CANAL. Chairman, with all the various clian^es and protean aspects it has assumed from time to time, I think in view of the liglit tliat lias been thrown upon the matter here the committee can perhaps understand the extreme dil'liculty of our task of last year in trying" to ascertain definitely what it was the company proposed to do and how they pro- posed to do it. I think the committee will appreciate the difliculty of our task and perhaps later, when they do us the honor of examining our report, they will give us due credit, also, for the temperateness and the seriousness with wliich we sought to consider the subject, to con- sider all these questions in all their bearings and aspects, and with an entirely favorable ojiinion and intention with regard to the construction of a canal across that isthmus to get the thing in such shape that we could report it as feasible and lix some probable sum within which it could be completed. We had to take the project which they had and modify it and correct it. We had laboriously to ascertain from other sources than the com- pany what might be the facts really of the case. We ascertained much for ourselves and we got more from others, and using all the informa- tion that we got from every quarter we made such modifications in the project, such increases, and such additions to the unit i^rices and quan- tities and such changes of the structure and methods of construction as we thought to be judicious, and we finally succeeded in getting it into such shape that we were prepared to report it was a feasible proj- ect and we believed it could be done within a certain sum of money. The Chairman. Right there let me ask you. State what expression was made by the board at the time of leaving Nicaragua, or about that time, to theeflect that this project was not a feasible one and the canal could not be built. Colonel Ludlow. Well, sir, I think quite likely The Chairman. If some conclusion of that kind was arrived at, please state it. Colonel Ludlow. Well, an opinion; hardly a judgment. You see it was this way, Mv. Chairman. We had read and assiduously studied this canal literature. We had in our hands the report of the chief engineer of 181)0. We had his still more important paper, formally pre- pared for the World's Columbian Engineering Congress of 1893. We had other statements, and there is a statement here which I desire to incorporate as a portion of the material, and I shall read from the executive document of the Fifty-first Congress, second session, which is a report of the JNIaritime Canal Company to the Secretary of the Interior, the accuracy of which is attested under oath by the president and secretary of the company. This material naturally must receive consideration. We find — That the final ])lans and tbc detail surveys of the canal and its harbors, locks, and other accessory works have lieen coniphited and verified, and no etlorts have been spared in perfcctinuj the route from ocean to ocean. That is the statement. We find the statement in the report of 189(1 that every problem had been solved. That the surveyiuji: parties of the conii)any had <;;athered such a mass of valuable infbrination as to Icavt; no doubt whatever renardiiij^ its sn])eriority and the amount and cliaracter of all the work iinolved in the construction of the canal. No i)robleni has been left unsolved, and what is now presented as the result of these arduous labors is an actual re])resentatiou of the actual conditions. This is the report of 1890. Mr. Patterson. Of whom? Colonel Ludlow. Of the chief engineer of the company, sir. That NICARAGUA CANAL. 341 is onr text-book with wliicli we went down, and we readied the country studyin,ii it attentively. We took the chief engineer's formal statement before the engineering- congress, expressly prepared for the information of the world, as to the real nature and essence of this ijroject. No one could believe when the paper was prepared that it could be anything else, at any rate up to that date at least, than the convictions of the writer as to the verity of everything in it, and without going into any details of statements, one of which was brought up yesterday as to the state of Ochoa Dam, we found statements like this : It 'was orijijinully planned that some sections of the canal in earth should he 80 feet in bottom width, with side slopes of lA to 1, and in the rock cuts with vertical sides. This would accommodate the traffic for several years; and then the areas in cross section could be increased out of the earnings, as at Suez, but at a greater ultimate cost. Following that is this statement: It has been decided to make provision in the designs for the ultimate require- ments ; and the following table shows the length of the dilferent sections of the canal in excaA'ation in the lake, the river San Juan, and through the basins, and also the dimensions of the prism for the same as now proposed. Then follows a schedule very much increasing the section in many res]>ects of the report of 1890. For examx)le, the least width at any point or the narrowest point is 100 feef through the divide cuts, and the next narrowest is 120 feet, and so to the river with 125 feet, and to the lake with 150 feet. We had this information before us, and we had not the least doubt in the world it was all right, and arriving in Nica- ragua we were confronted with a condition of affairs which w^as quite other than that which we had believed existed. We came to look into things, and we foun:l there were many i>roblems of the first magnitude which had not been solved, and for which no means whatever had been prepared for solving. Hydraulic data were lacking and borings were insufticient; foundations had not been explored. We found Lock No. 3 had been moved between 1890 and 1895 to a new site aiul the site has never been bored. We found mud bottoms in the San Francisco Basin where these great dams go that had never been .>ored and their depth was not known. We found the San Juan liiver had never been surveyed so far as to asceitain what was the real nature of the material to be taken out, and so on. I admit that when we returned from this investigation and fomul the company declaring tliat the lake Avouldvary 4 or 5 feet and the river to correspond, that no Hoods were to be apprehended, v.iien we ourselves could read on the banks of the river as we went along and at i)oints where we stopped and made levels to determine that the actual rise and fall might be as much as 12 or 11 feet, and at one point as much as 20 feet, I must say that we were disconcerted with the situation, and we found it at variance with the situation as it had l>een presented to us in the former luiblications of the company. It might Avell be on return- ing to Greytown that we should feel discouraged. I know I did. Fur- thermore, we found that the entrance to Greytown Harbor, whether by virtue of careless engineering or by virtue of adherence to the terms of the concession, v/hich shoukl strictly limit the location within which the entrance should be constructed, we found, as we believed, a con- struction of that entrance at that point would be i^ractically imi)ossible. It was extremely injudicious to undertake it. We found over at Brito Harbor the investigation there had been entirely inadequate and nothing like a full determination of the work to be done in the construction of the harbor at that point, a most for- 342 NICARAGUA CANAL. ini(lal)le point, as inucli so, perhaps, as in all the history of our American eii.uiiuH'riiiii' we liave ever seriously attempted building a harbor. It is a level shore, and the Pacifie comes in with a surf that in the calmest weather is from -f to 10 feet high. What will be the situation when you have one of the westerly storms or a southwesterly storm we could not realize; but we did realize that the endeavor to make a harbor at that point in conflict with what might be the natural forces was something that should not be liglitly entered ui)ou, and we did not in the least believe that the proposition of the comi)any was in any sense adequate. We Were discouraged when we got back to Greytown, Mr. Chairman, and we sought means to refresh ourselves. We looked at other points, and secured encouragement from the work done at Costa Kica and from the work done at Panama, and we did derive encouragement from that, and we still had conlidence that, after all, when we got back to New York and had a chance to explore the great mass of the company's data which had accnmulated there for many years we should be able to feel that in some way, even if not from memory and from conversation, we would be able to get the information we wanted, and we spent the three months of the summer in exploring that question from every possible point of view. Well, after a while we got a more encouraging view of it, that is true, but I can only say now as to what our view was in Greytown. If we said anything on the subject we could have said then the ]>roject of the company as a project was not feasible, nor will any one declare it is. The i)roiect of 1890, wiiich was then the project of the company, it is admitted is not feasil)le by the improvements and necessary altera- tions that the company itself has since made in it. The ])roject of 1805 w^as not formulated until we requested that it be done, in view of the changes which had been suggested and indicated and the neces- sary additions or alterations of the estimate which must ensue. The one thing we found absolutely fixed was the total cost of the canal across the Isthmus ; and while every feature of it might vary — the route and the construction, whether a masonry dam or a rock fill dam, whether weirs, sluices, or locks, of different width — there was one thing only that was fixed. We found the locks varied. In 1890 we find them 70 feet; in 1S93, according to the chief engineer, they were 80 feet. We went back and found that the price for a lock 80 feet wide was absolutely the same as one 70 feet wide. These locks varied so often that you would have to go to a rubber manufactory to get them built, and other things had an equally elastic tendency; and you your- selves, gentlemen, have seen the facility with w^hich the Ochoa Dam can be varied in its dimensions and cost. We w^ere ])uzzled with a dam which in 1890 cost $720,000 and in 1895 cost $970,000, and you saw yourselves yesterday from the testimony of the chief engineer how the price may vary with great rapidity from $1,000,000 to $3,000,000 and not leave a clear impression upon the mind of the hearer as to what figure was fixed as the view of the company of the cost of that most vital piece of work. The CiiMRMAN. Was there any expression of the board that the general Nicaragua Canal route was im])racticable? Colonel Ludlow. No; I judge not. I do not think any of us felt that. I can only speak for myself, but I do not think any of us felt that. I know I did not. When a man asked me, i rather jestingly told him, "If you wait ten years you will see ships going by here." He endeavored to consult me i)roressionally. He had a holding there and he wanted to know whether to sell or to keep it. Now, these estimates I NICARAGUA CANAL. 343 will simply read off, and it will not take two minutes, and yet tliey are very instructive. In 1873 the estimate of the Lull Expedition was $05,750,000. In 1885 Mr. IVIenocal's estimate was $04,000,000. In the company's estimate of 1890 it is $05,000,000, and in the comi^any's estimate of 1895, according- to their cheapest plan of the Tola Dam, it is $00,750,000. The average price of that is $(J5,000,000, and the largest departure from it is under a million, the projects themselves varying very widely indeed. In 1885 it was to be a masonry dam at Ochoa on arches on a sand foundation, and I have seen the proposed method of constructing the masonry dam with arches in the re^iort of the chief engineer, stating that the foundations were to be put 20 feet below the surface of the water, and the water in one corner of the river was 10 feet deep. That would have left for a masonry dam a foundation of only 4 feet in sand and with a river to be raised 00 feet high. As to what would happen to the dam holding water up under these conditions, we did not care to investigate. That dam was dropped in the report of 1890, and a rock-tilled dam was the project; with water running over it. Of course, these changes year by year or season by season involve large changes of quantities, and how is it that with all these changes of quantities there is no change in the total, or next to none? It is brought about by the extremely simple method that if you have 25 per cent or 50 per cent more work to do and will simply slice off the unit iirice sufficiently, you will have the same total cost you had before, and it is quite evident by a continuation of that process you can get down to a sea-level canal across that isthmus at the same cost if you simply go on and make a reduction of the unit prices to meet the increase of quantities. Well, I happen to have here one of the appendixes of the report, which is a small matter, perhaps, if you like, but it is significant. It is a summary of the water-gauge readings that in the course of the com- pany's investigations were made there, and we found at Camp Carazo, San Francisco Island, a short distance below the Ochoa Dam, there were watermarks taken which indicated a range of 12.85 feet at that point, and at Ochoa Dam, the very point in question, there is a record of 14.4 feet, and the observations were made by Mr. Bennett, of the com- pany. Mr. Bennett is a very excellent and, in his way, capable and thoroughly honest fellow. He was with us all through in charge of the drawings and we got very much information from him. It was from him, if I am not very much in error, we got the information that just before the close of work down there the company had commenced a new line of levels from Greytown to Ochoa for the purpose of deter- mining a discreiiancy or uncertainty of 1 foot in. the recorded levels as they existed in the company's compilation. The chief engineer said yesterday he did not know of that, but if not, who ordered the resur- veying? I think I want to refer to one other matter — there are many others, but I do not wish to delay the committee, and it is impossible to treat them all. This question of the Suez Canal and its dimensions has been referred to, and the Suez Canal is the only work in the world with which this canal is properly comparable. They are both strictly interoceanic. The Manchester Canal, a very great work, is merely an inland connec- tion of ^hinchester with the sea. The Kiel Canal, the German canal, is only a connection of two of those shallow oceans and is intended for the use of such vessels as navigate those seas, not of very great dimen- sions, mostly for the passing of the German navy from one side to another, and the German naval ships in their construction and dimen- 344 NICARAGUA CANAL. sioiis are also adapted to tlie seas they navigate — the Baltic and the German Ocean. Mr. Bennett. Is the summit level of the Suez Canal the summit level of the Mediterranean? Colonel Ludlow. It is sea level right through from the Mediterra- nean to the Eed Sea. There is no gate or locR in it. The Mediterranean tide is about the same as the Caribbean tide — about a foot — not great. Tlie Ked Sea tide varies somewhat; it is a closed sea and subject largely to the inliuences of the winds. Mr. Bennett. Is the Kiel Canal a sea-level canal? Colonel Ludlow. It is a lock canal, but it is a sea-level canal in one sense; and they introduced locks for the reason the Baltic has no tide, whereas the German ocean, into which the other end debouches near the mouth of the Elbe, has a considerable tide — as much as 9 feet — so, being a short canal, if they left it entirely open without gates and locks there would be danger at times of a tremendous current pouring through it, owing to the uniformity of the level of the Baltic and the greater variations at the Elbe end. I may say in that connection that if this Nicaragua Canal is to be compared with any sea canal, it is absolutely necessary to nail fast in some way that oscillating and elusive summit level, for if that summit level is permitted to oscillate the canal will cease to be comparable with any other work of that character in the world that is either built or contemplated. These other canals all have a regimen, they have a summit level which is maintained within in a measurement of inches. The statements and suggestions of the dimen- sions of the Suez Canal in all the company's literature are incorrect, and I may say the same of the statement made by the chief engineer with regard to it yesterday. Mr. Bennett. Is the level of the Atlantic Ocean at Isthmus the same as the level of the Pacific Ocean? Colonel Ludlow. Just the same. That is inevitable, it must be so. Mr. Bennett. That is what I imagined, but I understood it was some- what different. Colonel Ludlow. It is a very interesting fact, if you please, not to detain the committee, that whenever there has been any attempt to connect two seas there is always that question raised of a tremendous difference between the level of one sea and the other, and it is curious it should have been so. We used to be told that there was a difference iu level of 7, 8, or 9 feet between the Atlantic and the Pacific. Inas- much as they are free oceans they must be the same level. Gravity wouhl bring that about necessarily. And it must be the same with any other. It is the same with the Eed and the Mediterranean seas, because they had a connection outside the continents and variations will only be local. In the nature of things, the mean level must be the same the world over. Gravity arranges that. Yet Napoleon's engineer, when he was ordered by Bonaparte during the occupation of Egypt to investigate that problem of the Suez Canal, made the decided error of determining there was a difference of 25 feet, and the same error had been made long before by the Greeks. The same accusation was made against the small but astonishingly interesting canal, the Corinth, which is quite important, and it had that same history that there Avas great objection to cutting that little neck of land off because j)eople living on the one side feared the sea was going to pour through and wash them out, and yet they are only about 280 or oOO miles apart, measured around the isthmus. The original design of the Suez Canal was with a bottom NICARAGUA CANAL. 345 width of 40 meters, about 125 feet, and to be 8 meters deep, if I am not mistaken, altliousili the information is a little ol)S('ure on that point, and the original final estimate of the Suez Canal was based on a cost of $40,000,000, or 200,000,000 francs. They reduced the dimensions after- wards in order to get it completed, and finall}^, at a cost of $110,000,000 (550,000,000 francs), they succeeded in constructing it as it was opened for use with a bottom width of 72 feet, and, in oider to enable vessels to pass, sidings or excavations were cut in the banks where one vessel would enter while tlie other would pass. They found that condition of things incompatible with due facilities for transit, owing to the increase in the number of vessels passing- through, so that the widening was begun, and has now been nearly completed, except for 9 or lO-ufiles, so that tlie Suez has a width of 37 meters on the bottom, or 121 feet, and the least depth of the Suez Canal which it has been found advantageous to leave at all is 8i meters, or 27.1 feet, and for the greater part of the length of the canal it is 9 meters, or 29 feet G inches, say, in round numbers. The average time of transit is twenty hours, and the average nund)er of vessels is about ten a day. Now, all but about 9 or 10 miles of the canal has been widened to the width of 121 feet on the bottom, and a formal ])lan has been drafted and submitted to the canal administration in Paris, and has been apju^oved by them, although not yet ordered, because they are not prepared to go on, increasing the bottom width of the canal in the straight portions to 66 meters, or 210 or 215 feet, and on the carves to SO meters in width. The reason for that is simply this, that notwithstanding- a bottom M'idth of 120 feet, the vessels are not permitted to pass each other in the canal at speed. Their speed is limited to 10 kilometers, or about 6 miles, an hour, and they are not permitted to pass under way, notwith- standing- this increased dimension of 120 feet. When two vessels meet, one or the other, according to an arl)itrary arrangement, goes to the bank and the other goes by, and this increased widening- there is believed by the company to be necessary to permit vessels to pass each other freely and without any delay at all. I had some other notes here, JVIr. Chairman, but I think there are only one or two other points I care to refer to. I juade the statement on the authority of Mr. Davis that certain portions of the canal route, or an important part, IMr. jMenocal had not seen, and I believed it to be true, and yesterday Mr. IMenocal made a statenu'nt with regard to it, but he omitted to say, however, whether or not that is true, or whether or not there is still a portion of that caiuil line — either the axis of the canal or of the embankment line, whicli, wherever there is an embankment is more important than the canal line — that since its final adoption he has not inspected. If he cares to answer that question categorically, I wdl be glad for him to make a reply to it. I wo aid also be incidentally glad to know categorically whether or not he has ever himself personally gone over the line of the San Carlos ridge, Avhich, you understand, is practically a continuation of this Ochoa Dam here 10 or 12 miles, where waste weirs and sluices are to be built, and the con- structions are important. We went over that route ourselves on foot, but I have an impression that Mr. Menocal has not. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, we have had a most formidable task here. We supposed our relation to all this matter was closed with the rendition of our report, and we suddenly found ourselves challenged and attacked on the lioor of this committee room before the public, in the newspapers, and everywhere with imputations upon our conduct, 346 NICARAGUA CANAL. discretion, and cai)acity, and intended for no other piirjiose than to inv^alidate onr conclusions as expressed in our report. You will under- stand the ditliculty of meeting suddenly and unexpectedly an issue of that kind in an enterprise of this magnitude and invested with most formidable asj^ects. Great interests are arrayed on one side and the other, and great personages, you might almost say, have been taking active part in it, and if tliere has been anything that is lacking in our jn-esentation of the matter by myself and my colleagues I beg you to believe we have at least done our best and given the committee such infiufmation as we had, and endeavored to tell you clearly what we believed to be true, ami, with such j)roof as we had to present, that it was true. On behalf of myself and my colleagues I have to thank the commit- tee for the continuing courtesy and consideration, without which, in so diflicult a matter as oral testimony on a project of this magnitude, and with so many details in it of quantities and figures, that task would have been simply impossible, and I beg in behalf of the Board to tender our thanks to the committee for their consideration in that regard. The Chairman. There is a question I want to ask you in regard to the summit level of the lake. Suppose the company adopts 110 feet as that level, and that the whole canal structure is constructed with that fact in view. Suppose that the mean height of the water of the lake is 110 feet? Colonel Ludlow. The mean level? The Chairman. Now, what will be the effect upon the structure if there should be a variation of, say, 18 inches, or 2 feet or 3 feet below that mean heiglif? Mr. Patterson. Or above if? Colonel Ludlow. Any reduction from the summit level, whether it be fixed or varying or stated as a mean, any reduction in depth below that summit level, as depths are measured, would of necessity to exactly the same amount reduce the depth of navigation. The Chairman. Then, on the supposition the canal project is con- structed upon the basis of 28 feet of water relative to 110 feet as the mean lieight of the surface of the lake, if there should be a reduction of o feet in the level of the lake, namely, to 107 feet, the capacity of the canal would only be adapted to a 25-foot vessel; would that be the result'? Colonel Ludlow. With a reduction of 2 feet? The Chairman. Of 3 feet. Colonel Ludlow. Oh, no, sir. The Chairman. If it falls to 107 feet in the lake, and being con- structed with a view to 28 feet on a basis of 110-foot level"? Colonel Ludlow. With a channel of 28-foot depth the deepest vessel you would be likely to get through that channel would be not over about 2G feet. In the Suez Canal, with a soft bottom, they are not per- mitted to draw within 2 feet 3 inches of the depth; she mUwSt unload if she draws more than that. Mr. Patterson. That is not the qnestion. What the Chairman, as I understand, wants to get at is this, that whatever the reduction shows in the summit level that there is a corresponding reduction in the canal elsewhere? Colonel Ludlow. Of course, because yonr allowance underneath the keel of the vessel is a fixed quantity, and, therefore, whatever reduction you make in the summit hivel that much is cut off the draft of a vessel you jiermit to go through. NICARAGUA CANAL. 347 Mr. Corliss. Would a reduction of the siiinmit level of tlie lake affect to the same extent the canal its entire len<>th"? Colonel Ludlow. Well, the lake and the river. The Chaikman. It would affect every part above tlie Ochoa Dam? Colonel Ludlow. They are all part of the summit level. It runs through the east divide on one side, and through the west divide on the otTier. Mr. Patterson, I understood you in your remarks to-tlay to say it was absolutely necessary to maintain the sunnnit level. Now, I did not exactly gather your meaning there. Do you mean to say that if the canal is liS feet deep, in order to float a vessel drawing 20 feet it must retain the 28-foot depth, and any reduction in the summit level would affect the navigation of a ship drawing 2(5 feet of water? Colonel Ludlow. Crowd out all those ships. Mr. Patterson. Now, is that your meaning, or is there some other reason? Colonel Ludlow. No; it is a commercial meaning in that respect, just a mere matter of building some kind of a waterway there. The variation would not amount to anything if you did not care anything about your depth. Mr. Patterson. So if there was a summit level of 110 feet and a depth of 40 feet in the canal the summit level might go down 5 or 10 feet and not atfect the navigation? Colonel Ludlow. No; because you still have water enough to float your ship. Mr. Patterson. I understand it. Colonel Ludlow. If it is going to be a 2S-foot navigation, it must be such at all times and all seasons, so as to permit a 20-foot ship to go through. If we had a 30-foot navigation, then at all times and all seasons the arrangement should be so a 28-foot vessel could go through, or else you destroy the integrity of the navigation. Mr. Patterson. When you say the integrity of the summit level must be maintained Colonel Ludlow. It must be maintained at least at a minimum. The idea of our supposing it nuTst be maintained like a cast-iron sur- face, at the same height, going neither above nor below, is, of course, out of the (luestion. We have to assume that the minimum summit level must be maintained, or otherwise the 28-foot navigation would cease to be there, and that is a matter of how much that lake is going to oscillate. Mr. Patterson. There is one other point The Chairman. Before you leave this point. The Ochoa Dam is designed with a view of maintaining a 110-foot sumndt level? Colonel Ludlow. In the lake. The Chairman. Now, suppose that to be the mean, what reason have you to believe that there will be a niininuim below that, and what is the extent of that minimum, if tliere is any? Colonel Ludlow. Well, sir, that is just one of the problems we did not have the means of solving, and it is absolutely vit.al to the project. The range and oscillation of the lake have never been observed by any- body. All the evidence we could get on that subject simply indicates that sometimes the lake was so, and sometimes it was so, and sometimes it was so. We measured everywhere we could get a watermark, or an indication, at the Granada wharf and at the San Jorge wharf. Mr. Bennett. What was the greatest variation? Colonel Ludlow. We found reason to believe the lake has varied as 348 NICARAGUA. CANAL. mucli as 14 feet, measuring from the lowest point we could hear of up to the highest point we could hear of, reliably. The Chairman. When you speak of 110 feet being the summit level there, at what season do you understand that was ascertained? In the flood season or in the dry season"? Colonel Ludlow. If you please, the summit level is to be adopted as a datnm; it does not exist as a natural phenomenon at all. The lake at what is mean average low level in ordinary conditions i)erhaps is at about 102 or so. Mr. Corliss. That is under natural conditions? Colonel Ludlow. Under natural conditions, just as you will find it, and it is quite in a state of nature. There is no artificial constrnction there of any kind. If you establish the summit level at 110 you will have to dam the water until it will never fall below 110, it becomes an artificial surface, or at least a surface artificially maintained, and in its natural condition it ranges below that and undoubtedly has ranged above it. The idea whicli I have had in the matter is this: When the Oclioa Dam was constructed Mr. Patterson. It would be constructed with a view of maintaining the summit level at 110 feet? Colonel Ludlow. It is so stated, definitely and distinctly, in the company's reports. Mr. Patterson. ]^ow, if the lake should rise 14 feet, or any number of feet, why, this sur])lus, which raises the level of the lake above tliat mean level established by the dam, would find an escape through these weirs and over that ridge and into the Atlantic? Colonel Ludlow. That is 70 miles away. Mr. Patterson. Whereas it could not fall below the 110 feet after- wards, because the dam fixes and establishes it at 110? Colonel Ludlow. You can not do it. The dam itself, according to the company, is only 105 feet. The dam is to be built to 10(5 feet, and, according to the comi^any's project, is to be used as a weir. In otlier words, water is to pour over it, and the sill of the weir is established by the company's project at 105 feet. Mr, Patterson. That means a mean level of 105 feet? Colonel Ludlow. That means the point at which the water escapes over the Oclioa Dam is at a level of 105 feet, and it is assuuied by that arrangement in connection with other arrangements it will maintain the water level in the vicinity of Ochoa Da^m at 100 feet. In other words, between the sill of the weirs and the surface of the water there will be a depth of 1 foot of water always pouring over it, and that arrange- ment will lead to a fixed slope of 4 feet upward, and that arrangement will hold the lake at 110 feet. Of course, we found that incredible. TheCiiAiRMAN. Suppose that condition toexist — that the actual slope of the river as created by this dam would be 4 feet. Now, then, sup- pose that the lake rises 14 feet above that and that the slope of the river is increased from 4 feet to 18 feet; what effect would that accelerated current have upon the navigation of the river by boats upward? Colonel Ludlow. If such a condition could exist, Mr. Chairman, it would be quite impossible to get a boat up this slope. The Chairman. Could that condition exist? Colonel Ludlow. I do not believe it could, because this variation we observed of 14 feet of course is obtained by comparing what was at one time the highest and at some other time the lowest. The Chairman. But if by correction through the Ochoa Dam you make the minimum 110 of the level of the lake, then the fluctuation must be upward? NICARAGUA CANAL. 349 Colonel Ludlow. The fluctuation will be from tliat level up, and it is a question of what it will anionnt to. It will not amount to as much as we found iu the natural condition because the river will have a larger channel and a much greater area to discharge through and will com- mence doing so sooner, and there will be no longer 14 feet; but say it be 4 feet or 5 feet, we do not know, we have not the means of ascertaining that. It might be G feet. The Chaieman. Suppose it could be so, what would be the probable increase in velocity if you double the slope of the river from 4 to 8 feet; Avhat would be the corresponding increase in the velocity? Colonel Ludlow. It may be four times or more, dependent somewhat upon the banks and other conditions. It makes a very complicated thing to work out. Mr. Joy. AVhat was the level of the lake when you were there; did you determine that? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; we noted that^ and it is in the report. It was 101.8, Mr. Endicott reminds me. Mr. Bennett. Using the Ochoa Dam as a weir for every foot of that minimum, there must be 1 foot more dredging done on the river? Colonel Ludlow. Absolutely; if you desire a deeper stream in order to maintain navigation you will have to deepen it. Mr. Bennett. Has any j)rovision been made for overflow into the Pacific from the lake? Colonel Ludlow. No; none whatever. Mr. Bennett. Could such a provision be made? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; but it is not wise to use a canal for drainage. You do not want any current in a canal if you can help it. You have a narrow cut to go thruugh rock, and any current increases the difficulty in getting through. Mr. Bennett. It would be much less distance from the lake to the Pacific Ocean? Colonel Ludlow. Yes; you could get rid of it more quickly there, but if you undertake to do that you would have to make some si)ecial provision for it. It would not in the wide world do to pass it through the canal. There is danger in a narrow rock cut, aiid they are only 100 feet wide, the cross section being only 3,000 s(]uare feet, and if you undertake to take any great body of water through that cut you will have such a current you will not be able to use it for ships. Now, in direct connection with Mr. Bennett's statement. It is quite likely in these long, narrow channels, 100 feet wide and 30 feet deep, it will not be found practicable to move a large vessel faster than about 3 miles an hour. Suppose you have a current of 3 miles an hour in there, and you undertake to take a vessel against it; of course she is stationary, and that ends it. I merely use that as an illustration of the difliculty of undertaking to make a mere draiuage of a canal. Mr. Patterson. Mr. Slenocal stated on yesterday that in the borings at Ochoa Dam they went at least to the depth of about 2S feet, or whatever it was, and that the borings showed that the bottom was sand and that they had not gone sufiicieutly tar to tind a rock bottom? Colonel Ludlow. No, the borings ended in sand. Mv. Patterson. He stated they might find rock below that, but they had not found it. Now, suppose that this dam is constructed on sand in the bottom of that river. Is that such a foundation as would make that dam unreliable and untrustworthy for holding such a large volume of water? Colonel Ludlow. Well, sir, it is well known iu engineering matters 350 NICARAGUA CANAL. that a sand fouiulation is an extremely undesirable thing to liave to deal with. It has been dealt \Yith, and successfully, but by special i)ro vision for doing it. You can have worse than that — you can have soft mud, if you like. Sand has a certain kind of solidity. In its essence it is hard and compact, and sand, if confined so as not to escape — if it could be cased up or boxed — then sand to build on is nuich better. It is quite incompressible, but the action upon loose sand by anything like a thread or current of water is a very dangerous thing to introduce. The sand will flow with the water, and if the sand be small enough it will go through small interstices; so a sand base for a dam is extremely unde- sirable if you can tind any other. The l)arrage that crosses the Nile below Cairo is built in the Nile delta and rests ns a matter of fact npon sand and mud which compose the bottom of the river at that point, but extraordinary precautions were taken and the French engineers failed in making the work a suc- cessful one. It was a very formidable task, and they presently aban- doned it, and it was later taken up and finally completed and put in its present perfected form by English engineers. It is masonry work which practically is almost without a foundation. They made a very extensive riprai)ping of stone to cover the bottom. There is no exces- sive current, because the dam itself intercei)ts that. The height to which the water is raised by the use of this dam, which was put in in order to provide for the irrigation of a large portion of the delta, is only, if I remember, a matter of about 9 or 10 feet, so that the head of water was not formidable; but here is a head of 00, 80, or 90 feet, and what are you going to do under those circumstances? If you can find rock there, even at oO feet, it Avotdd be a great encouragement to an engineer who had to design a dam at that point. If, however, as we are infbrmed in this case, you have nothing to do but to build it on the saml, why you must build on the sand or go without your dam; and if that dam'must be built, why build it or let the project go. Mr. Patterson. Do you think it is practicable to do that on the sand? Colonel Ludlow. I think it is practicable, sir; but you observe that the defects of th'^, foundation in that case can oidy be amended, as it were; your conditi(ms can not be nltered, and you have to make up for the deficiency in your foundation by a necessary increase in the magni- tude and weight of your structure. Theie is no other way. INIr. DoouiTTLE. A (jucstion just at that point before you go to a new line of tliought. You believe with the proper material and time you can construct a dam there that would hold the water all right"? Colonel Ludlow. We finally came to the conclusion it would be practicable, although it has never been done. The work is without precedent in engineering construction. Mr. Patteuson. You spoke of the harbor at P>rito. Now, just judg- ing from the nuq) which stretches across the room here, it seems the shore line there is tolerably straight. Now, what is the method of construc- tion of that harbor? Y'^ousay the surf there often on calm days rises from 4 to 10 feet, and in a storm I suppose the ocean there is very vio- lent and deep? Colonel Ludlow. It deepen soft" rapidly, the shorede(^iens off rapidly. Mr. Patterson. What is the idea of constructing the harbor there atBrito? Colonel Ludlow. I low to do it? ]Mr. Patterson. How do they propose to protect the ships there against the gales in that locality? NICARAGUA CANAL. 351 Colonel Ludlow. Well, in a very imperfect way. That map there, however, is not designed as an engineering map. Mr. Patterson. Well, jnst explain it as well as you can. Colonel Ludlow. Off liere, observe, is a little red block [illustrating] on the left-hand side. Here is a little, rocky promontory extending out into the racitic Just here f illustrating]. The harbor is to be made here, underneath that promontory and in connection with it. That extends out, maybe, a quarter of a mile into the sea, a couple of hundred feet high, and the company proposes, properly, to make a breakwater which shall extend from the end of tliat i^romontory crosswise so as partly to intercept the seas coming ashore. Then, to prevent the seas fi-om roll- ing in at tlie side, an offshore work in the nature of a jetty is projected out, something like that [illustrating], so that you have a little promon- tory sticking out into the Pacific, and then you have a line of break- waters coming so, leaving between the end of it here and the jetty an opening through which vessels shall go. Mr. Patterson. JsTow, there is a large body of red marked on the map? Colonel Ludlow. That red thing is intended in a vague, rough, and general way to indicate an interior harbor which would then be exca- vated out of the line of the canal. That harbor will be dug or dredged out. Mr. Patterson. What kind of a country is that? Ls that a low, flat country"? Colonel Ludlow. No; there is that promontory which projects, and other ridges come down. It has an altitude of 150 or 200 feet. Mr. Patterson. And the harbor lies between the ridges? Colonel Ludlow. The harbor lies between this little promontory and another promontory which comes off" here [illustrating]. There is one here and one here. Both come down to the shore and one x)rojects a little, and there is a bit of straight, sandy beach between those two. This river, the Rio Grande, comes in here [illustrating]. Here the waves come tumbling in, making this great surf which strikes on the beach. The entrance is to be made here and the real harbor then is to be exca- vated out of the land. The water deepens there very rapidly. You are in 10 fathoms very soon. In a mile and a half you have gone to 26 or 27 fathoms, and in another mile you have gained another 10 fathoms. On the Atlantic coast our depths run about a fathom to the mile, and in this case within 2J miles we have 30 fathoms, or some such matter, on the Pacific. That is the reason these fearful swells come in, as there is no shallow water to diminish the roll. Mr. Doolittle. I would like to ask about what investigation, if any, you have made as to the draft of ships at present building and sailing on the Pacific and whether or not you have found the tendency to be to lessen the draft of vessels, modern-built shi])S, and increase the beam ? Colonel Ludlow. Well, I can not say; we made very little investi- gation into that. It was a matter which rather affected the commercial statistics of the canal than an engineering point of view. As I remem- ber, we took the general dimensions of large vessels, but we used them regarding the lock, length and width of the canal as quite sufficient, and we thought if the lock were wide enough to admit the United States war vessels it would answer all requirements. As a matter of fact, the tendency in the construction of shipbuilding is an increase in all respects. Mr. Doolittle. Not in depth? 352 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel LiTDLOW. In leuA'tb, width, and depth. It is found the larger vessels are more economical carriers than small ones. Mr. DooLiTTLE. But I say, are not shipbuilders everywhere in the construction of the ships now using a flatter floor, a flat bottom'? Colonel Ludlow. Less dead rise, that is true, but without diminish- ing the draft. JMr. DooLiTTLE. Do you know what is the average draft now of a •4,()00-ton cargo steamer, an English-built vessel? Colonel LuDUOW. I do not remember, but I should think it would range from 19 to -5 feet. Mr. DOOLITTLE. I think it ranges from 19 to 22 feet. Colonel Ludlow. Well, your information on that point is perhaps better than mine. Mr. DooLiTTLE. I mean, of course, laden down to the marks. Colonel Ludlow. We were quite content in that respect to follow the project of the company and accept their depth of 28 and 30 feet. INlr. DOOLITTLE. I could tell you of 2 or 3 lines of some 16 to 18 vessels to the line, like the Glenogle Line and similar lines, where the draft is not to exceed 23 feet. Colonel Ludlow, I saw a vessel drawing 19 feet 6 inches in the Suez make heavy weather of it, although there are 28 feet of water in the Suez. jMr. Corliss. I would like to ask one question before you conclude. In making the plans of the board, if 1 understand correctly, you pro- posed to maintain a level of 110 feet at the lake, and to maintain at all times a depth in the canal of 30 feet? Colonel Ludlow. We accepted the company's data in that respect. Mr. Corliss. You misunderstand me. In perfecting your plan, in making the extensions you deemed necessary, did not you figure upon a basis of a mean level of the lake of 110 feet and the depth in the canal of 30 feet? Colonel Ludlow. Yes Mr. Corliss. That is Avhat I understand. Colonel Ludlow. And we followed that, believing it was judicious because the company announced its intention of regarding that as a final project, and we had the authority of the chief engineer in his paper there in which, with some exceptions, 30 feet is carried through. Mr. Corliss. But in view of the developments of wider vessels and deeper-draft vessels you made these recommendations, deeming it neces- sary if the project was to be undertaken? Colonel LiTDLOW. We thought so. That was our judgment. And in view of the Suez Canal data we took the trouble to ascertain last sum- mer when we found they had made that very considerable deepening; we did it, not because we believed it was extravagant, but because we believed it desirable. Mr. Joy. I want to ask a question which I forgot to ask yesterday. You say the summit level of the lake was 101 and a fraction when you were there? Colonel Ludlow. There is no summit level. Mr. Joy. Well, the level of the lake. Colonel Ludlow. One hundred and one and eight-tenths it was when we were there. Mr. Joy. Where did you obtain your information as to the point below that at which the summit of the lake had been found— from what source did you get your information? NICARAGUA CANAL. 353 Colonel Ludlow. I will read from the report what we i)ut iu in regard to that: Mr. Joy. I noticed the statement, but I did not know whether it gave the source. Was your information derived from individuals or from a variety of things? Of course you could not see the water marks below the level of the lake. Colonel Ludlow. That comes under the general head of summit level. At the time of the gauging at Fort San Carlos, where the river leaves the lake and where we were detained two days, we tried to make good use of our time, and we made two gaugings there and investi- gated the lake bottom and also the Eio Frio, which comes in there and might interfere with the work. We say in our report: In tlie report of 1890 the discbarge from Lake Nicaragua at its lowest stage is said to be 11,390 cubic feet per second, and Colonel Childs is quoted as authority for an estimate of high-water discharge of 18,059 cubic feet per second. With these data a calculation is made, using the numerical mean of the two results to show that there will be a much larger water supply than required for canal purposes. Both the data and the method employed iu this calculation are incorrect. In Appendix C are given the results of all the gauging of the San Juan Kiver of which the board has been able to tind record. They consist of a series of gaugings made at different points along the river by Colonel Childs in 1851 ; of a similar series made by Commander Lull in 1873; of a single gauging made by the canal company in 1888, and of two gaugings made by the board in 1895. All the measurements of the discharge of Lake Nicaragua have been made at low stage, but none at the lowest. The gaugings of Lull and Childs at this point agree as nearly as can be expected of gaugings made hurriedly and at such a long interval of time. The stage of the lalie at the time of Lull's gauging, 102.28 feet above mean tide, has been erroneously accepted by the company as extreme low water. At the time the gauging at Fort San Carlos was nuide by the board, May 26, 1895, tlie stage was 101.8 feet, and the measured discharge 9,420 cubic feet per second, which accords very well with the results of Childs and Lull. A lower stage than tiiis, however, has been of record more than twenty years. On the 2d of May, 1872, according to Lull's profile, the lake was 100.87 feet above mean tide. Still lower stages have been reported. The officers of the Victoria, a steamboat plying on Lake Nicaragua, showed to the engineers of the canal company a low-water mark whose elevation was 98.6 feet; this was contirmed by residents at the head of Kisma Lagoon, near the mouth of the Tipitapa Eiver at the head of Lake Nicaragua, who pointed out a ledge of rock extending across the river which has been bare; its ele- vation is 98.5 feet. The very lowest stage known, observed at Granada, on the west side.'of the lake, is reported by Mr. William Klimie, an English civil engiut^er who has resided in Nicaragua for many years. Mr. Climie reports a stage of 96.6 feet above mean low tide. Of course the information is extremely scanty, quite insufficient, but that is what we got. Mr. NooNAN. I would like to refer to the sand foundation. You stated it could be utilized by boxing? Colonel Ludlow. I stated if you had sand packed and confined in some way it was as good to build upon as anything else. Mr. NooNAN. What would you put upon that sand, concrete or rock? Colonel Ludlow. Well, I would work pretty hard to see if I could not fiud some bottom in there. ]Mr. KooNAN. But assuming you had only a sand bottom ? Colonel Ludlow. You could build a masonry dam there, but it would be a very expensive and dangerous thing; and the Board believes that if you use plenty of rock with due precaution, using plenty of it and using careful methods as you are building, and particularly if some means can be provided by which the excessive floods can be drawn off or reduced so the work would not be very seriously endangered during the construction period, we could get the dam built. Mr. XooNAN. If you put the rock next to the sand there, would it jeopardize the safety of the whole construction? N c 23 354 NICARAGUA CANAL. Colonel Ludlow. Jt works tbis way: You can check tlie flow of ^vatel■ through sand if you make it go tlirougli enough sand. lu other words, if you make your dam long enough up and down stream — we estimate 900 feet will be necessary for that ])urpose — the friction of the water passing through the sand that long distance will check this How. The dam will leak largely, there is no doubt. That is the fact in regard to all of those dams founded on sand. The water seeps through, but does not go tlirough with any force, and if you can get enough rockiu there you can get the dam built. We are satisfied of that. ■ Mr. NooNAN. If the sand has suflicient density as compared with the weight, it is safe? Colonel Ludlow. The sand per se is incompressible. It is made up of incompressible atoms, and when you get it in a compact INIr. Noon AN. Do you exclude the water? Colonel Ludlow. Of course that sand is going to be in water, but if you can keep the water from passing through that sand Vvith such veloc- ity as to carry the sand out, well and good; but, as a matter of fact, it is a little difficult; it is extremely diflicult to determine what will be the effect upon the bottom of that head of water — GO or 70 feet — when you once get it there. We know very little about it. It might be the water would find some place in the banks where it would begin to pour through under that head, and of that we do not know. It would require the most careful investigation. Mr. NooNAN. You present the thing as a problem entirely without question about the sand foundation? Colonel Ludlow. We get to the point of saying we could do it. We say we think it can be done, although it has never l)een done. The CHAIR3I AN. What would be the effect upon this dam constructed of loo>e rock, provided the water was permitted to pour over it or per- colate through it in considerable quantity upon the lower level of the dam upon this foundation of sand; what would be the tendency toward undermining it and destroying the cohesion? Colonel Ludlow. It is un(]uestioned that the action of the water at that point would have to be watched with great care, and stone and materials to snpidy M^aste or injury must be on hand ready for innne- diate apidication. One precaution is in making the slope itself so fiat the ^^ ater shall come off sensibly i)arallel with the bottom so as not to have a plunging action. That nuist be avoided. The CiiAiEMAN. Is it practical to have that slope so that that will not hap])en? Colonel liUDLOW. We think it can be done. The Chairman. Do you think it can be done upon the hypothesis of the water pouring over the dam? Colonel Ludlow. No, sir; I beg 3'our pardon there. The percolation of the water through it I was considering. The board is absolutely clear that no water whate\ er should be permitted to pass over that dam, because wherever that hapi)ens the destruction of the dam has almost instantly followed. 1 do not think any engineer in the country, 1 am sure, l)elie\'cs you could build a rock-fill dam and permit the Avater to run over it, and gentlemen of very extended experience with those works are all agreed on that point. The board has no doubt whatever it would be extremely injudicious to undertake anything of the kind. The water must not go over that dam. It is all loose material to handle, and the passage of water over that dam will attack not the body of the dam, but will attack the near- est piece of rock with which it is in contact. It is not the mass of the NICARAGUA CANAL. 355 dam it deals with at tliat point at all. It is uotbiug but an individual piece of rock, with no other resistance to the action of the water than its own weight, and to such an exteut as it maybe jammed against the adjoining" pieces. Furthermore, the w^eight of these blocks is reduced by virtue of the fact that they are below the surface of the water, or .partially suumerged,and to that extent their actual weight is reduced. A block of stone Avhich weighs 5 tons in the air does not weigh that under Avater. You have to reduce the weight by the amount of cubic feet of Avater it displaces. 1 may say with regard to that, another grave doubt introduces itself. It is i>roposed, of course, to build this dam out of tlie material to be taken from the east divide, a perfectly rational proposition. It lemains yet to be actually certified as to Avhether the rock out of the east divide can be gotten out and handled in sufficient mass so you can get big enough stones to tumble in there. At the entrance to the Suez Canal at Port Said they use great blocks of 22 tons of solid concrete, yet the action of the sea on those blocks — it is only a moderate sea in the Mediterranean — carries them off at the rate of about thirty or forty a year. So they have to keep a constant supply for the jetty w^hich extends into the Mediterranean. Now, you want to get blocks of that kind out for that purjiose in the east divide, both for Greytown Harbor and the Ochoa Dam. They can not be too large, and whether this curious volcanic rock, which has all sorts of characteristics, most unexpected, if you like, and nnich of which is soft, is possible to be obtained in such masses, we do not know. Sui)pose you get that rock out of the east divide and })nt it in the Ochoa Dam, and under the action of the air and water this volcanic rock begins to decompose and run to mud? Then "where are you at?" so to speak. These contingencies we could not answer. We had not the information to deal with them at all. Mr. ( 'ORLis.s. There is one question I would like to ask the Colonel, just for personal information. Taking into consideration your investi- gation of this enterprise and the great benefit it would be to the Amer- ican nation, or the American nations and commerce, do you not deem the investigation to have i)rogressed far enough to warrant the acquisi- tion by tiie Government of the right of way and concession and to enter into negotiations for the ultimate construction of it and control of it by the United States Government? Colonel Ludlow. Do I believe it would be Avise to enter into nego- tiations Avith those two States to acquire this concession ? Mr. Corliss. To obtain the right to construct the canal by the United States GoA^ernment. 'Colonel Ludlow. I should think that it might be a A^ery Avise precau- tion to let it take that form. That is not an engineering question ■ ]\Ir, Patterson. It is not an engineering question. Colonel Ludlow. It is more a political question^ ]Mr. Joy. A diplomatic question. Colonel LuDLOAV. I do not know how the in^esent concession is, but I heard the chief engineer say it expires in 1890, Mr. Corliss. The question is simply whether the United States Gov- ernment, in your judgment, should have this right to construct and maintain a canal lliere? ]Mr. Joy. I submit that is a diplomatic question. Mr. Corliss, I realize it is, but I did not know Avhether the Colonel cared to Colonel LuDLOAV. It is a political question, and Ave have not entered 356 NICARAGUA CANAL. upon tliat at all. When we examined the construction of Greytowu Harbor we ignored the fact tlie line we proposed was over what was claimed to be the boundary, because we did not belu've this work should be considered in that connection at all. The crossing of the bounle wlioui you came in (contact with respecting the Government of the Unitd States partici- pating actively, and i)erhaps in the sense of control, in the construction of this work! Colonel Ludlow. I do not think, really, sir, we had any touch with that question. I do not remember that Ave had. I will say the Nica- raguan authorities treated us with extreme courtesy. The Chaikman, You found nothing but friendly feeling'? Colonel Ludlow. ISTothiug at all but friendly assurances and cour- tesies and welcome. The Chairman. And they manifested an interest in the enterprise, did they? Colonel LiTDLOW. They did manifest an interest to this extent — they sent down two commissioners to meet us, who were specially accredited to meet us at the wharf and extend all facilities that they could, and they gave us the use of tlie State telegraph. The Chair:\ian. And they knew you were there, of course, represent- ing the United States Government ? Colonel Ludlow. They knew our errand, and we were received, although not formally accredited to the Government in any sense; they met us with a salute of 11 guns, and we exchanged courtesies and calls, and that was done all the way up the river by both garrisons, and also at Managua. Mr. Wanger. And they knew your business there was in connection with the i)rojected canal ? Colonel Ludlow. A'es, sir; the commissioners were sent down to meet us for that purpose. It was ({uite well known in Nicaragua in regard to our coming, because the company were nniking preparations to receive us. The Chairman. Ami you are satisfied you were favorably received ? Colonel Ludlow. Absolutely; there was lu^ shade of a discourtesy at any i)oiut. On the contrary. There were a few druuKen men cursing the Yankees at a few places, and we had to look out for fear of some of them knifing some of our i)arty, but Mr. NooNAN. l^robably it was the influence of whisky ? Colonel Ludlow. These commissioners did notify us at Greytowu, before Ave started out on our quest, that we could not go and look at the Colorado with the idea of carrying the canal down that stream, but of course we did not pay attention to that. AVe considered the matter solely as engineers. STATEMENT OF ME. A. G. MENOCAL— Resumed. The Chairman (to Mr. IMenocal). Have you anything you desire to sav? Mr. ^Menogal. I do not think I need to say anything. What has been said here to-day had been stated in previous testimony, and I have NICARAGUA CANAL. 357 gone over it in my original written statement and previons testimony before the coinniittee. 1 do not know tliat I liave anything to add; but I will be glad to answer any questions from you or any member of the committee. As to the question put by Colonel Ludlow, whether I have been over these hills personally, I should answer Colonel Ludlow. That was not my question. Mr. JMenocal. I explored that region, I pointed out on every one of those hills where embankments should be built, and put the engineers there to work developing the topography. Its develo])ment was finally concluded about 1801. I was rearranging the line of the embankments just before 1 left, in order to conform it to the topography as developed by the engineers, aiul some slight changes were made from one hill to another in order to get a better location, and I will add that since that final development of the tojwgraphy by the engineers I have not been over the line finally located over those hills, Init I have been over every individual hill, and I selected the line of embankments. Colonel Ludlow. Now as to the other, if you please. Mr. Doohttle. You need answer only questions put to you by the committee. Mr. Wanger. I adopt tlie question. jNlr. IMenocal. If he refers to the San Carlos region, I have explored the San Carlos and all those hills, commencing in 1873 and again in 1885. I have examined that region and those hills in the valley of the San Carlos, and placed engineers there to develop the topography, and from the development of the engineers the embankment line was laid down. Since that embankment line was laid down I have not been over the line myself. There was no necessity for my doing so. That is a statement of the facts. I selected the line for the embankments over tliose hills, and while there may have been slight changes in the final location of these embankments from one hill to another — but that strikes me as rather immaterial, as I have been over the ground, every foot of it. Now, this board seems to admit the practicability of the canal as laid down by the company's plans Avith some modifications on which we do not agree entirely, but 1 have treated those questions in my written state- ment. Tiie question as to how much you can do a piece of work for can be settled only by bids from difl'erent contractors who may be found ready to do the work. Mr. Wanger. What is the basis for the belief that rock can be taken out in blocks of sufilicient size from the cut in the oast divide to build the piers at Greytown and Ochoa Dam? JNIr. Menocal. From the fact that similar work has been done in a great many parts of the Avorld and is now being done in the United States. There is no doubt you can get large blocks of rock if you use the proper appliances to do it with. Mr. Wanger. Is it from borings, or what form of iPi vestigation of this ])articular rock bed? jMr. Menocal. Borings have been made there. Colonel Ludlow has read the report of the geologist in regard to the quality of rock. We believe there is plenty of rock hard enough for the construction of the breakwater, and also for the construction of the dam. Is that the question? Mr. Wanger. Yes, sir. Mr, Menocal. From the borings which have been carried to the level of the bottom of the canal at about 1,(>0() feet from one to another, the character of the rock in sight at the numerous rapids, and the opinion 358 NICARAGUA. CANAL. of the geologist, we have come to the, conelnsioii that we have a snffi- cieiit amount of rock there for tlie construction of the dam aud the breakwater, aud that it cau be obtained in blocks of the size required for the work. The Chairman. Did you find any imperfect rock by those borings'? INIr. Menocal. Yes, sir; some of the rock is harder than others. It is not quite uniform, but we believe there is sufBcient hard rock for tlie works proposed. Tlie Chairman. Might not that rock turn out to l>e not adapted to ex]>osure? Mr. Menocal. It is possible for a portion of it. What has been classified as soft may turn out to be of inferior quality for the con- struction of this work, but we believe there is sual, either on the Pacific Coast, in Soutliern and Central America, or tlie West Indies can be furnished inor(^ cheaply by the Appalachian coal chain, lying largely in the Ohio Valley, than by any other section of the world. The Chairman. By the canal? (ioveruor MacCorkle. Yes, sir. This, of course, can be done only through the construction of the Nicaraguan Canal. I Avill ]noceed to give my reasons lor this ])roposition. There is no iK)rtion of the United States which will be benefited by the iSIicaraguau Canal as the Ohio and Mississipi)i valleys, particularly NlCAt^AGUA CANAL. 359 the Ohio Valley. In the mere matter of coal the benefit to the Ohio Valley will be incalculable. My limited time will not allow niore than a cursory discussion, even of coal. The advantages to the Ohio Valley in its relation to its very multitudinous products will not be discussed. The hi.u'hest development of the Appalachian coal chain takes place in West Virghiia, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky, and from this great body of conl will come in the future the great bulk of supply of the world. Within the Appalachian chain there are about 04,000 scjnare miles of coal. The cuttings made by erosion and by the various agencies of nature have adapted this coal to easy mining and transportation to a greater extent than any other coal of commerce. The coal formation of the Appalachian coal field has a deposit, which, in the aggrej;ate, will amount to 9,000 feet, and in this field there are more than 100 distinct workable coal measures. The Appalachian field furnishes about two-thirds of the output of bituminous coal in this country and all but 41 per cent of the total production of coke. The vastness of the coal trade of this field is hardly appreciated. Just in one comparatively small district alone, the Pittsburg district, we have •$50,000,000 in coal investments. The value of the (;oal output last year in this country amounted to $200,000,000. This great Appalachian field is about 900 miles in length and from 50 to 180 miles in width, and extends from northern Pennsylvania to middle Alabama. It embraces the Ohio Valley, western Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and the Elkhorn district of Virginia. This area embraces the largest and best i)arts of the Appa- lachian coal Held. I generally use West Virginia as an illustration because this State has within its borders a greater amount of the Appalachian coal field than any other State. It has more that 80 per cent of the total bitu- minous areas of Ohio and Pennsylvania combined. It has more than Pennsylvania alone and 2,000 square miles more than Kentucky and Tennessee combined. In Kentucky the coal-bearing rocks within this field have a thickness averaging 2,000 feet, and there are from eight to ten merchantable coals within her boundaries, and all are splendid coals, Kentucky having both the Illinois and the true Appalachian coals. Mr. liENNETT. You spoke a moment ago about the strata of the Appalachian coal chain; you said something about 2,000 feet. What do you mean ? Governor IMacCorkle. I mean the coal-bearing formations in Ken- tucky, Mr. Bennett. Is that in direct depth ? Governor IMacOorkle. That is not always the absolute depth. ]VIr. Bennett. What depth is the deepest vein you know of in the Appalachian mine region ? Governor MacOorkle. The good merchantable coal in the Appa- lachian coal chain averages from 3i to 11 feet. Of course, the lat- ter is extreme, but obtains in a number of places in West Virginia, Kentucky, and ^laryland, and several jilaces in Pennsylvania. Mr. Bennett. To what depth below the earth's surface do you fol- low the coal in the Appalachian coal chain ! Governor MacCorkle. Various depths. Throughout Kentucky and West Virginia there are very few shaft mines. In Pennsyhania there are more, but the majority of the mines in the Appalachian coal chain are above ground and in the mountain side. The mines in a vast num- ber of instances drain themselves. The veins in the great majority ?)G0 NICARAGUA CANAL. of instances lie imiform and level. This causes our mininji' to be so niarvelously clieap in this j^reat coal field. For instance, iu Australia, Nova Scotia, British America, and in a number of the AVestern States and in England they are compelled to burrow great distances in the ground in order to get the coal. In many instances in England tliey are 2,000 feet in the ground. This is not the case in the Appalachian coal chain. On the basis that the Ohio Valley has the best and cheapest coals in the world, it should supply the greatest part of the increase needed by the world's demands. The coals of this coal field are the gieatest and l)est formations. It is true the Western coals are fair coals for some purposes, but in matters relating to steam raising and iron making none of the Western veins of coal are at all comparable to the coals of the A])palachian field. In many of the States of the West they have big veins of coal, l)ut the highest development as to quality is never seen in the West. All of the Western coal fields are more difilicult to mine than our Eastern or Appalachian coals, and none of them have the purity of the last-named coals. The Vancouver Island coals are the best American coals supplying the Pacific market, and, except the Japanese coals, about all of the coals imported and in full use on the Pacific Coast are from the British possessions. The Western United States coals, possibly excepting Washington coals, can not com- pete with the coals of tlie British possessions. Tliis results from two circumstances: First, the quality of the coal is not so good; second, the high rate of railroad transportation in the West, and longdistance from })oint of production to point of consumption. The Vancouver Island coals are fair coals, and while they are gener- ally better than the Western coals, they belong to tlie recent coal for- mations. This is the case with nearly all of the AVestern coals. They are not generally good steam-raising coals, because of the great abun- dance of suliihur and ash, and because of tlieir absolute destruction of boilers and fire boxes and of all api)liances in which they are used. The coal of Vancouver Island, as I said before, is good coal, but not comparable to our product. For instance, take the Wellington coal, which is considered the best on the Pacific Coast, and compare with the West Virginia coal. In the Wellington coal the fixed carbon is 50. 54; volatile matter, 34; water, 2.05; ash, 7.41. Now, compare with the Elk (rarden coals of West Virginia. The fixed carbon of the latter is 76.28; volatile matter, 19.25; ash, 3.02; water, 0.98. Thus you will sec, by a simple comparison of analyses, the immense superiority of the ^Vppalachiau coals over the best coals of Vancouver Island. These latter coals are confidently relied upon, when their development is completed, to control all the Western coast trade, including Central and South America. The Western coals are generally brown coals or lignites, not yet devel- o]mh1 into good coal, and in no sense of the word compare either for domestic uses or for cooking i)urposes or steam-raising purposes with our splendid coals. They are not the true carboniferous era coals. They have too nuieh water and are of a woody texture. They sla('k too easily, and the draft forces burning particles through the screens. Vast sums of money have been spent in i>reparing ajipliances i'ov the use of these coals, so as to make then valuable for the various uses of commerce, but as yet none have been discovered which make these coals in auy way the equal of our splendid Appalachian coals. In the Western States transportation is the great question , and nowhere in the world can overland railroad transportation compare with water NICARAGUA CANAL. 361 transportation. In every instance the coals ■whicli have water transpor- tiktioii can be marketed at very much cheaper rates. The water trauspor- tatidii would average about one-flfth per ton per mile the cost of the railroad transportation. The river transportation and water transpor- tation, for instance the transportation on the Ohio from Pittsburg to New Orleans is about one-twentieth of a cent per ton per mile. Hence, the coals of Colorado, which are perhaps the l)est coals in the West, are not readily available for use on the Pacific Coast because of the great cost of transportation. So it is Avith the coals of Washington, which are very good coals, but unless they are immediately near' the seacoast the cost of transportation is too high to make them available for all of these purposes. The State of Washington, outside of the Ai)palachian coal chain, is the only hope of successful competition with P>ritish coals. In Texas there is a vast amount of coal, au(l such is the case in New INIexico, but these coals are not likely to compete with the Appalachian coals. Generally speaking the coals of these States, and, as I have said before, of principally the whole West, are the brown coals more nearly approaching lignites. Then, as a matter of fact, the only coals which can compete on the Pacific Coast with the British Isles, Australian, and IJritish American coals, and the Japanese coals are the coals of the Appalachian field, and the question is how to sujiply the Pacific Coast with these magnifi- cent coals. The initial price of coal in this country is less than in any other country. It is from (iO to 85 cents per ton at the mines in the Appala- chian coal field, the average price per ton at the mines in West Vir- ginia in 1894 being 75 cents, the cheapest in the world. This as against $1.24 in Colorado, $2.33 in Washington, 93 cents in Alabama, and as against about $1.87 i^er ton in Belgium, $2.25 in Japan, from $1.75 to $2.25 in New South Wales, and from $1.05 to $2.25 in Great Britain. It will be understood from this statement that only cheap transporta- tion is needed for the coals of the Appalachian coal field to control the coal consumption of the Pacific Coast. England is a great i^roducer of coal and puts out about 185,000,000 tons ])er year as against about 170,000,000 in the United States. The United States produces about 30 per cent of all the coal of the world, and it is absolutely necessary for our development in the production of coals that we take charge of the markets of the Pacific Coast and of South and Central America, Mexico, and the West Indies. Great Britain exported 33,000,000 tons of coal as against only about 2,000,000 tons of bituminous coal exported from the United States in 1894. England sends about 200,000 tons to the Pacific Coast, and about 880,000 to Brazil, 750,000 to the Argentine Pepublic, 340,000 to Chile, and 44,000 to Peru. England ships every year to these latter markets 2,500,000 tons of coal. Mr. Bennett. When you spoke of British, what territory does that expression include! Governor MacCorkle, As I have used it above, I mean England proper, Wales, and Scotland. Mr. Bennett, You did not take in by that the Australian and British- American mines? Governor MacCorkje. No, sir. Mr. Bennett. Then they are not included in the total of about 185,000,000 tons? Governor MacCorkle. No, sir; I meant the British Islands alone, which mine from 185,000,000 to 188,000,000 tons of coal. 3G2 NICARAGUA CANAL. This country slionld control these markets for the simple and natural reason that we are nearer to them, and our rehitions are in every sense of the word closer than in Great Britain. The coals of South America, so far as they have been developed, do not show their ability to suc- cessfully compete with the Appalachian coals. The coals of the liepnb- lic of Colombia are fairly good, some of them very good, but as a mat- ter of fact they will not be able to compete with ours. In Chile, which atone time was heralded as a great coal-producing State, latest inves- tigations have not carried out the ideas Avhich were once conceived con corning the coal. 'l"'he veins are thin and the coal not of the best (|uality, and can not compete, or only to a very small extent, with our coals. Such is the case with Mexico. There seem to be some good coals in Alaska, but as yet little is known about them. IVFr. DooLiTTLE. Would not the cheap coals coming through the canal stimulate manufacture on the Pacific Coast, and would it not stinuilate immensely the miniug interests of the country! Governor MacCorkle. Immensely. The trouble is, the I*acific Coast is killed as a manufacturing section by reason of the high price of fuel. Six dollars to |8 is too high for fuel. The Pacific Coast should be one of the great manufacturing sections of the world. It has splendid minerals, magnificent forests, and the finest timber in the world. It has very fertile soil, a delightful and equable climate, energetic people, and is splendidly situated in refer- ence to the Orient. It has a vast number of products needed in manu- facture, and at the same time what is manufactured on the Pacific Coast can be taken cheaply to the market of the East and sold to a very great advantage. So, as a matter of fact, one of the great demands of the western coast will be for coal. Every consideration of economy, as well as every consideration of national pride, is opposed to our absolute dei)endence upon Pritish possessions for the coal which is the founda- tion of the prosperity of this great manufactiiring section. The only hope of our successful comi>etion with British coal is through the Nica- ragiiau Canal. Kailroad transportation across the continent is out of the question. In West Mrginia, which is a fair center of the Appalachian coal field, we are mining and loading coal at 00 to 85 cents per ton on cars and $1.80 f. o. b. at the coast. We are mining cheaper coals than the Japan coals. Her coals cost her $1.50 f. o. b. at the mines, although she pays her miners only G cents per day. ^Ir. DoOLiTTLE. They are selling bunker lots at $4.25 under contract and $4.50 for shipment. Governor IVIacCorkle. That is true. Yet, notwithstanding this, Japan is driving Australia and Great Britain out of the eastern market. In the port of Hongkong, which is getting to be one of the greatest coal markets in the East, the Japanese coals are really dominant, and as they develop the large territory which is in the Island of Formosa, as well as JNIiike in southern Japan, her iiitluence will be more greatly felt day by day. She will become a great competitor, but our coals, for the reason I have given, will undersell her. The ISTew South Wales coals and the I'nglish coals are worth about $1.75 to $2.25 per ton at the pit mouth. The l^^nglish coals cost from $4 to $0 per ton delivered in London, while our good coals are carried about 000 miles and laid down f. o. b. in New York Harbor at from $2.40 to $3 per ton. There- fore any enterprise which will allow the coals of this great Appalachian field, and ])arti('ularly of the Ohio Yalley, to be sent to the Western market will benefit both this market and this great valley to an NICARAGUA CANAL. 3C3 immcasnrable extent. At the same time it will be of incalculable benefit to the Pacific Coast. By the construction of the Nicaraguan Canal, the price of coal up and clown the coast of the Pacific will be lessened to a very great extent. The obvious advantage of this canal will be seen both in time and rates. The Chairman. Let me ask you what would be the freight charges from New Orleans to San Francisco through this canal on the basis of $2 a ton toll. Governor MacCorkle. The distance from New Orleans to San Fran- cisco by the present route is 4,080 miles. I give the toll at $ J , but even at $"2 toll, leaving 4,000 miles for ocean traffic, you will still see that we undersell the British-American and the Pacific Coast coal. It will not take, of course, $4 per ton freight. At the present rate you can cal- culate the general rate at $8 \>er ton on coal. This is safe and conserv- ative. The present run is 15,000 miles. The run through the canal is only 4,000 miles — a little more than one-fourth of the original dis- tance. The reduction in freight would be obviously one-half and more, to say the least, because there is only one-third of the distance by the canal. By railroad across the continent freights are from $20 to $30 and the time is from twenty to twenty-five days. By sailing vessel arouiul the Horn it takes one hundred and twenty days, and the freight rates are from $8 to |10 per ton. By the canal this time would be reduced to thirty to forty days, with a reduction of at least one-half in freight charges. Steam vessels through the Straits of INfagellan now take from forty to fifty days, with freights from $10 to $12 per ton. This time will be reduced from seventeen to twenty days in length of voyage, with the freight rates correspondingly reduced. The fiuotntions at San Francisco are as follows: Puget Sound coal, $0 to $7; Southfield, British Columbia, $7.50; Wellington, British Colum- bia, $8; Australian and European coal, spot lots, $5.25 to $0.59, with nn average of British island coal at $0.50 to $7. The coal of the Ohio Valley can be placed in the harbor of San Francisco at from $4.50 to $0.50 per ton, with steadily decreasing ])rice, leaving out the consideration of the vast difference in quality in fiivor of the coal of the Ohio Valley. By the building of this canal we have the advantage of distance over any other coal exce[)ting the Pacific (;oast coal, which, as 1 have shown before, can not enter into competi- tion with the Ohio Valley coal, the advantage of quality always bei*ng in favor of the Appalachian coal at from $1.25 to $2.25 ]ier ton. All the advantage of a vast unrestricted market will accrue to this valley from the construction of the Nicaraguan Canal, The Chairman. What is the estimated consumption of the Pacific ( 'oast of coal? (Tovernor INTacCorkle. As I understand, you mean the Pacific Coast of the United States. According to Mr. Saward, probably the most eminent authority we have on the coal trade, the tonnage last ye.ar for San Francisco was 1,000,000. Out of this tonnage only about 500,00() tons came from the United States; this included about 150,000 tons from Seattle and about 200,000 tons from Diablo and Coos ]>ay. The rest camefromBritishterritory,including050,000 fromBritish Columbia, 1 would think that the consumption along the coast, outside of this city, would amount to between 000,000 nnd 900,000 tons, making the consnmption of that coast nearly 2,500,000 tons. < 'ontinuing down the coast you will find Great Britain exported into Mexico 140,000 tons, of 364 NICARAGUA CANAL. wliicli one-half canie in l)y tlie west coast, Acapulco being a good mar- ket. From the United States there were shipped to Mexico, according to Mr. Saward, about 100,000 tons of bituniinons coal. The coal trade of 3Iexico, upon a fair calculation, would develop through the canal to the extent of about 1*50,000 tons within two years. I think this would be a very conservative estimate. At Central America the coal trade, of course, would be confined to the canal. The best experts have calcu- lated that the canal aiul its shipping would annually require about 2,000,000 tons of coal. It will naturally become one of the great coal- ing stations of the world, because there is more money in carrying iVeight than coal. Upon a calculation which 1 will give yon a little further on, you will see that of this 2,000,000 tons of coal, at least four- liltlis will be furnished by the United States, for the reason that we can jtlace the coal at Panama or at the Pacific end of the Nicaraguan ('anal for less than $4. It is costing to-day by normal rates from Europe $10 to -"Bll. Now as to South America, Great Britain shipped to Peru last year 44,000 tons. There was from her own mines, from Australia, and from Germany between three and four tinu^s as much more, which would be 150,000 to 200,000 tons, of which amount at least one-half would come from the United States. Chile received 340,000 tons last year from Great Britain. There were shipped into her by other nations at least 100,000 tons, making 440,000 tons last year. The United States should have at least half of this tonnage of coal. Therefore, including the 2,000,000 tons used on the canal, of which one-half will be stationed for consumption on the i'acific Coast, to the whole Pacific Coast, from Cali- fornia to Chile, there were imported 4,000,000 tons of coal. With the calculation as to price, as I have shown, it seems to me, and I believe to everyone who understands the question, that there should pass through this canal about the first year or two from the Appalachian coal held the vast amount of 2,000,000 tons of coal. I have discussed the mere region of the Pacific Coast, but it is only a very small part of the world which will be controlled by onr coals. As soon as we turn our attention to the markets of the world, particu- larly those of South America and the Pacific Coast, a vast trade region will be opened up, which is to-day controlled by our British comi)etitors. At JMaranham, Bra/il, the distance is 8,800 miles from Newport News, a middle Atlantic seaport. There Cardifl' coal costs them -ii<12. We can give them coal at about $5. At Pernambuco, British and German coal is used at $11 to $15 per ton. Including 4,080 miles of transporta- tion from New Orleans, we can sell them coal at $5.50 per ton. At Montevideo the British coal costs $13 per ton. We can put the A])pa- lachian coal in that market at $8 per ton. At Acapulco, INFexico, Car- diff coal costs them $20 per ton. This market is only 2,200 miles from New Orleans, and we can place our coals there at $5 i)er ton. At Callao, Peru, Cardiff coal costs $15 per ton. This market is 2,984 miles from New Orleans and 3,455 miles from Newport Kews, and we can ])lace coal there at $0 per ton. Valparaiso, Chile, uses Australian coal, which costs $8 per ton. This is 4,200 miles from Newport News, and we can ])lace our coals there at from $5.00 to $(5 per ton. From the mouth of the Kanawha Uiver, in West Virginia, to New Orleans, the operator has the cheapest transjiortation in the world. The transportation on the Ohio and ^lississippi rivers is the cheapest iidand transijortation in the world. Thei)lan in operation is by steam- boat and barges, such barges carrying from 10,000 to 15,000 bushels, and averaging about 500 tons. On the Ohio Kiver a towboat will NICARAGUA CANAL. 365 carry a fleet of about 30 barges of about 500 tons, or about 375,000 bushels. This vast fleet is handled by one ('Oini)arative]y small steam- boat, aud, as is Avell observed by an authority on such matters, each one of these fleets would make 30 trains of 25 cars each, or a continu- ous line of cars about 5^ miles long. When at Xew Orleans or the mouth of the Mississippi, the coal is elevated into seagoing vessels and shipped to its ])oint of destination. By the construction of the canal, instead of the long tempestuous route nronnd Cape Horn, with all of its un(;ertainties arising from the perils of navigation, there will be a comiiaratively short run from the mouth of the IMississipjii, across the Gulf of Mexico, through the canal, and up the Pacific Coast, amounting to only 4,000 miles as against the 15,000 miles Journey which easterii products are to-day com])elled to take. A very small calculation will show our ability to undersell the other coals spoken of elsewhere. Our coals cost, as J have said before, from 05 to 85 cents per ton at the pit mouth. It costs about 80 cents i>er ton trans- portation to the mouth of the IMississippi. The tollage through the canal will amount to about $1, leaving 4,000 miles for ocean transporta- tion, we will allow from $2 to $4 per ton. This, at $2 ])er ton, is one- twentieth of a cent per ton per mile, or double that at -^4 per ton. The rates from San Francisco to Liverpool are from $7.50 to $10 for 15,000 miles. This is from flve-hundredths, or one-twentieth, to six and one- half hundredths of a cent per ton per mile; the reduction in rates will be i»ro[)ortionate on reduced distances. This, with insurance and inci- dentals, will bring the cost of a ton of the best Appalachian coal to from $4.50 to $0.60 at San Francisco. That this is a fair statement is evidenced by the fact that the sailing vessels carry coal at from $7.50 to $9 per ton around the Horn, a dis- tance of about 15,000 miles. The canal saves about two-tljirds of the distance. This statement is borne out by the price of Eastern coal at San Francisco; the last cjuotation was from $0 to $10 per ton. I)y this route we will have largely the advantage in mileage of the Welsh aud English coals. Mr. Be:\'NETT. Have you estimated any canal rate in passing through the canal? Governor MacCorkle. I have always estimated that we ought to put this at from $1 to $1.50. 1 think that on a cheap merchandise, like coal and nitrates, the rate could be placed from $1 to $1.50. In the Suez it was reduced to between $1.80 and $1.90, and I think they will steadily reduce this rate. They could reduce it on the Suez Canal, and still have a large per cent in excess of a reasonable rate. I will discuss the question a little later on. ]\rr. Be]Sinett. As I understand, you could afford to use the canal at a toll of $1.50? Governor IMacCorkle. Yes, sir; we could use it at $1,510, and, upon a calculation which I made a few moments since, we could go as high as $2 in the carrying of coal and undersell the coals marketed upon the Pacific Coast. Mv. DooLiTTLE. That leaves you a margin of over $3? Governor MacCorkle. Yes, sir; you could put it at $2 toll through the canal. We will have by far the advantage of any other coals by shipping, even if we do not utilize the Ohio and Mississippi rivers, for we can place coal at i^ewport Kews, Baltimore, or Norfolk, which are the three great ports of the Ohio Valley, at $1.80 jier ton, and ship it by vessels through the canal, and undersell any other coal. To-day we are shipping coal by rail 300 or 400 miles to Baltimore, Norfolk, aud 366 NICARAGUA CANAL. Newport News, sending it around Capo Horn and delivering it at San Fraiieisco (a Avater run of nearly ir),()00 miles) at $U to $10 per ton. How incalcnlablo will bi'our advantage wlicn this tempestuous and extended oeean voyage is reduced from 15,000 to 5,000 miles. Mv. DuuLiTTLE. What is the distance lioni the coal lields to Newport News'? (Jovernor ^IacOurkle. About 4{)() miles. Mv. 1>U()LITTLE. What is the cost per ton per mile, generally si)eak- ing ? (Jovernor JNIacCohkle. About one- fifth of a cent. As I said above, we ])ut the coal on shipboard at Newport News at $1.80 per ton. ]\lr. DooLiTTLE. What is the traffic on the Ohio liiver ? Governor MacCoekle. It is about one-twentieth of 1 per cent, as I ha\ e said above. Mr. Joy. And that is all the way down the Ohio and Mississippi, too? (iovernor MacCokkle. Yes, sir; this ajjplies from the Pittsbnyg distri(;t to New Orleans — that is, when the coal operator owns both barges and steamboat. A fair illustration of what we can do was best seen in ]March, 1S'J5, when the Davis and h^ll^ins ndnes of West Vii-ginia coaled our war ships at Trinidad. Coal there costs about >fl to $8 per ton. We placed it on the ships at $5.85, and on the other side of the Istlunus our war shii)S paid about $11 i)er ton, A\'e can place it there very easily for less than $5. The Navy Department saved from the above mentioned transaction alone $50,000. These are a few illustrations of what can be done in the way of tak- ing control of the great West Indian market and of the markets of the Pacilic Coast and of South America. After all of their investigations and after all the vast ex})enditureof money by capitalists interested in the South American Continent and the I'acific Coast, no coals have been discovered which are in any way comparable with ours. Let us discuss the (picstion of distance between the Appalachian coal field and its conii)etitors. The Japan coals are comj>elled to undergo a voyage of 4,701 miles irom Yokohama to San Francisco. Australian coals travel from Sidney to San Francisco, 0,514 miles. From Newjiort News to San Francisco it is about 4,500 miles; from New Orleans to San Francisco it is 4,047 miles; from Liverpool it is 7,500 miles; from New York it is 5,000 miles; from Fort Townsend to Valparaiso it is 5,840 miles; from Newport News to Vali)araiso it is 4,400 miles. These distances are through the Nicaraguan Canal. Thus you will see that we have the advantage over the Japanese coals; al)out 2,000 miles advantage over the Australian coal; about 3,000 nn'les advantage over the British Island coal. Our advantage is further em])hasized by the comparison of distance between Port Townsend and Newport News with Vali)araiso. 1 1 is con- fulently exi)ected by the great coal companies of the Cammox and Wel- lington fields in Vancouver that they will supply the whole western market of South America. Ly the canal taking Valparaiso as a point on the western coast of South America we will have 1,L'00 miles at least advantage in distance over the Vancouver Island coals. In other words, with the canal con- structed, neither Englaml, Vancouver Island, Australia, nor Japan should be able to sell a ])ound of coal within the borders of the United States. The high price of the A'ancouver Island coal in San l'4ancisco is caused by the high price of mining, as it is only a distance of 700 miles naviga- tion. NICARAGUA CANAL. 367 Ultimately, ^Mexico and the South Americau States will be great pro- diieers of iron and form there a ready and needed market. In almost every case we can ship onr coals and coke to the regions needing them more cheai)ly than they can be mined in those countries. In Mexico there are some splendid deposits of ir00,00() tons. In abont twenty years it has been increased from 20,00(1,000,000 tons. It is aluiost incalculable the amount i)f traffic which is absolutely in the control of the American canal. I will give it as near as I can, so that we can appreciate its innnensity. The trade of Great Britain with Ecuador, Peru, Chile, and Bolivia, w^hich last year amounted to about $50,000,000, is absolutely tributary to this canal. The trade on the Atlantic and Pacific coasts is trilnitary to this canal, and amounted in 1890 to 80,000,000 tons. The trade of Belgium with Peru; the trade of our Atlantic ports with Hongkong, China, Japan, I>ritish Australia, Philippine Islands, and Sandwich Islands; with Chile, Peru, and Ecua- dor, which last year amounted to about $55,000,000; the trade of the Pacific ports of the United States w^ith Belgium, Prance, Germany, Great Britain, with Cul)a amounted to abont $25,000,000, all together amounting to the vast aggregate of $130,000,000, not including the traffic between the Athiutic and Pacific oceans. There is also a vast amount of trade which is largely tributary to the canal, but this traffic is absolutely tributary to the canal. Its only passageway is through the canal. Every economic and trade law demands that through this canal this vast commerce will go. Therefore, looking at this commerce as seeking its destination by the cheapest and quickest rimte, liowcan any sensible and disinterested person for one moment conceive that the traffic through this canal will be, as some wiseacres have put it, only to the extent of 2,000,000 tons a year ? Now there is a large trade, a great part of which will go through this canal. It is not absolutely tributary, but part of it is almost certain to go through the canal. There is every reason to believe that a large amount of the return commerce between Great Britain and her Eastern colonies Avill pass through the canal. There is also a large amount of the English traffic returning from the East Indies, which, instead of going to London and being reshipped to Ncav Y^ork, will be left at New York, and the vessel at this city will reload on its way to London. Such merchandise as plumbago from Ceylon, braid from China will be unloaded at New York and not sent on to London, The trade whi(;h 1 mention as largely tributary is the trade of Great Britain with Hongkong, New SoutlTWales, (Queensland, South Australia, Victoria, Western Australia, New Zealand, Tasnmnia, Java, Pliilii)pine Islands, China, and Japan, This trade last year amounted to $350,000,000, There is to be added to this estimate the trade of France with Japan and Chile, wddch amounted last year to $23,420,000; the trade of (Ger- many with Australia, $5,022,000; with Japan, $3,005,000, and Chile, NICARAGUA CANAL. 369 $26,439,000, wliicli togotlier last year amounted to over $35,000,000, aud the trade of our Atlantic ports with the British East Indies, French East Indies, Dutch East Indies, and Central America, which together hist year amounted to over $43,000,000. The whole amount of this last trade aggre<;ates over $450,000,000, and a large part of this must, by the law of distances, seek its destination through the waters of this canal. The trade of Chile, Peru, and Bolivia with England will take its course through the canal, as tlie journey between Bolivia and Liverpool will be shortened 4,009, and Valparaiso and Liverpool 2,144 miles. Mr. Joy. Have you calculated how much tonnage will jiass from west to east through tlie canal, from the Pacific Ocean through to the western coast of Europe, and the Eastern coast of the United States"? Governor ]\IacCoekle. Yes, sir; to some extent I have calculated the amount of trahic passing from the Western coast to the Eastern coast. The foreign commerce of San Francisco has grown to l)e as large as the foreign commerce of the United States between 1820 and 1830. The great disadvantage under which the Pacific Coast labors is that it is about as great a distance from the Pacific Coast — San Francisco, for instance — to Liverpool as it is to New York. The Pacific Coast has the finest timber in the world. This is becoming exhausted in the East, but we are compelled to have it. You have ou the Pacific Coast 25,000,000 acres of splendid timber. Washington last year put out 1,800,000,000 shingles. It is too far to ship them around the Horn, and the railroad haul is too expensive. We need spar lumber and ship lumber, all of which must eventually come from the Western coast. In 1893 you shipped from Puget Sound 80,428,339 feet of lumber. About 12,000,000 of this went to Great Britain. Every foot of this lumber will go through the canal, as it costs from $10 to $11 by the Horn by sail and $20 to $25 by steam. The loresent capacity of mills of Puget Sound is 1,000,000,000 feet per annum. This will open up the greatest traflhc on the Western coast in connection with the East. Senator Squire estimates that the State of Washington alone has 200,000,000 tons of wheat per annum. There were exported last year from Puget Sound, San Francisco, and Willamette, Oreg., about 20,- 000,000 bushels of wheat. With the exception of about 150,000 bush- els, this was all tributary to the canal. From the same towns there were shipped last year 1,300,000 barrels of flour. Every xjound of this merchandise is tributary to the canal. Then, in considering the esti- mate which has been made of the Pacific Coast trattic by the promoters of the canal, we find that in the year 1894 the export of the articles of green fruit, dried fruit, raisins, and canned goods the estimate w'as much greater than was calculated. Senator White says that the State of California produced in these four articles alone last year 212,000 tons of freight. He also estimates that there were over 800,000 gallons of brandy shipped in 1894 from California, every particle of which will be tributary to this canal. The estimate of tonnage I have discussed in answer to your first question. I have made some quite exhaustive investigation of this matter, but regret that to-day my time is so limited and I have only come prepared to discuss the question of coal in its relation to the Pacific Coast. It is utter and absolute nonsense, I submit, upon the tacts and figures which I have here given you to estimate that there will be only about 2,000,000 tons of trattic through this canal. From every estimate which I have been able to make, it seems to me that there will be a safe traffic through the canal within the first two or three years of 5,000,000 to 7,000,000 tons, which, in a short time, will extend to 10,000,000 or N c— — 24 370 NICARAGUA CANAL. 12,000,000 tons. This is a safe and 1 think conservative estimate. Olconrse I coiikl give various reasons for tliis in the saving of distances, but the limits of my discussion to-day will not permit me. I think, however, that niy estimates are on the side of conservatism and of sense. Mr. liENNETT. What is your estimate of the tonnage from the Ohio Valley south, including coal, cotton, and other articles? Governor MacCorkle. Of course, the construction of the canal would stimulate all the productions of the South and the Ohio and Mississippi valleys. Our cotton is manufactured in England. We should send our cotton directly to its destination, but, as a matter of fact, we send it to Europe to be manufactured, and only get the price of the raw cotton. Japan is getting to be a great manufacturing nation. In a little while she will have control of the great part of the manufacturing? of the East. She must get her Cdtton from us. In 1888 she bought 100,000 j)ouuds; in 1801 she bought 7,000,000 pounds of cotton. She has more than 1,000,01)0 spindles, and her people all wear cotton. We will be nearly 2,000 miles nearer Japan by thecanal and 2,000 miles nearer the northern coast of China than England will be, so, as a matter of fact, the vast amount of cotton consumed in Japan should go directly through the canal. So it will be with a vast number of i)roducts of the Ohio and Mississippi valleys. In 1800 China imported 61,000,000 of cotton goods, and only 5,000,000 from us. China will have become a great numufacturing country, and within a short time a vast tonnage will be in that aidme upon the whole contract, with its pro rata of stock. I shall 1)0 prejiared to enter into a formal and detailed contract with your company whenever you are in a position to satisfy me that your financial arrangements have been so far perfected as to insure the receipt by me of the cash necessary to be paid under such contract. I ought to add that I am at present engaged under contract in the construction of a railway on the island of Jamaica, and I expect to finish that work about the first of the year. I am now employing there about 8,000 men with a large plant, and if any contract is to be made with yon I should desire to have the same perfected before the 1st of December, if practicable, so as to arrange for the transfer of my force and plant directly from .Jamaica to the isthmus. I feel safe in saying, if you can show me that your financial arrangements have been consummated, I should have no diffi- culty in ])utting a force of 25,000 .Jamaicans alone at work upon the canal within ninety days from date of contract. In accordance with our conversation, I have made this letter general in terms, but I think witli the modilications of Mr. Menocal's figures above referred to, it is suffi- ciently specific to be the basis of a formal contract for the construction of the whole or a part of the canal, if you accede to my terms. Yours, very truly, Jas. p. McDonald & Co. John R. Baktlett, Esq., Preaident Nicaragua Canal Company, New York CUy, N. Y. 374 NICARAGUA CANAL. EARTH EXCAVATION ABOVE WATER, WESTERN DIVISION. In the western division, where the rainfall, thoiij;]! much greater than in the United States, is mncli less than in the eastern division, the cost of the work is more nearly comparable to that of the United States. The average contract price of earth excavation from the Chicago Drainage Canal is not far from 30 cents per cuhic yard, or for clay alone ahout 25 cents per cubic yard. 'J'his worlc was executed mainly during the summer, because it could not be profitably carried on during the unfavorable weather of winter. Where the work was being executed, the banks of the canal wei'e level, making it easy to move tlie ]>laiit for wasting tlie spoil, and, as noted by Mr. Bates in his interesting testimony, exiierieucc oil the canal demonstrated that the two lines of railroad running on either side of the canal were of inestimable service. This, and the proximity to tlie almost limitless mechanical resources of Chicago, together with the extremely low ]irico of fuel obtained from the vast coal fields of northern Illinois, in the imme- diate vicinity (delivered at $1.75 per ton), render the cost much less than that of similar work in Nicaragua. The addition of 00 per cent to the cost of work at Chicago to meet the compar- atively unfavorable conditions of climate, rainfall, cost of jdant, fuel, and all other supplies in Nicaragua is an extremely moderate one. The figure adopted by the lioard, 40 cents per culjic yard, is the one which appears in the company's schcilulo of ISilO, and is also the one adopted by Mr. Treat in his pro])osal to the coini>any, although under certain conditions wliich practically amount to a large increase. In its recent estimate the company has reduced this unit iigure to 35 cents for earth excavation from the canal, but has retained it for excavation at locks. It is usual, in receiving projiosals for lock excavation, to ask for a separate price for pumping. In the present case the cost of all auxiliary work is included by the comjiany in the unit price fior excavation, except in the case of the two tide locks, where specific allowance is made. While in the board's estimate the entire cost of pumping and other auxiliary work is charged to excavation and taken up in the unit price, in this connection it may be well to note that, anticipating the difficulty involved in the construction of lock pits under heavy rainfall, the chief engineer, on page 89, states that it can lie easily met by the construction of temporary sheds over the lock sites, but has not, appar- ently, undertaken to make an estimate of what it will cost to put under roof an area of SdO feet long by perhaps 100 or 150 feet in width. The unit ](rices of recent excavations for dry docks in the United States may be iiitei'csting in this connection. At the Port Royal and New York docks the price was 60 cents per cubic yard; at the Puget Sound dock the iirice of the main pit was .50 cents per cubic yard, but greater jirices for special parts of the Avork made the average price about 60 cents. In every case an additional payment was made for l)umi»ing. EARTH EXCAVATION ABOVE WATER, EASTERN DIVISION. It would be difiicnlt to imagine more unfavorable conditions for excavating clay than exist in the eastern division under the tremendous rainfall of nearly 25 feetjier year (in New York 3 to 4 feet). The work in the east divide is through a continuous series of hiils, and after the removal of the clay the profile taken on the surface of the rock will be only a little less hilly than before. The difficulty of handling plant under these conditions for the removal of material will be easily appreciated, and the addition of .50 per cent to the price adopted for the western division is not excessive. This unit ]uice includes the cost of disposing of the flow of the waters of the Descado and Ijimpio, which cross the canal line fref|uently, and during the heavy rains have large volumes of water. The importance of this is very great, and the entire lack of data as to the actual volumes renders it impossible for an engineer or contractor to estimate closely the cost of doing this. The rains which occur nearly every day would cause the entire suspension of work of the same character anywhere in the United States. In ordin.Try work an inch of rain would involve temporary suspension and resort to ]ium])ing to clear the site. The cost of earth excavation for the lock now in use at the St. Marys Falls Canal was over $1 per cubic yard, and the contract was profitable. The contract price for the lock about to be opened was 43 cents per cubic yard, and the contractors wore in financial difficulty before the completion of the work. MUD EXCAVATION AT SITE OP EMBANKMENTS. The cost of this is estimated by the company at $1 per cubic yard, and by the board at $1.50. The figure adopted by the board was obtained by cousultatiou with a NICARAGUA CANAL. 375 very competent contractor, Mr. Arthur McMullen, of New York, a portion of tliia unit price l>cing made to cover the necessary cost of cutting off the mud bottoms above and below the site to prevent iuilow into the excavation, a cheap and ready method of doing this being suggested as the sinking of rough timber cribs tilled with stone into the soft bottom. ROCK EXCAVATION, WESTERN DIVISION. The company's price for rock excavation in the western division, according to the schedule of ISi'lO, is $1.25 per cubic yard, reduced to $1 in their estimate of 18^15, pub- lislied for the first time in the report of the Board. The hoard has adopted the com- pany's price of 1890. Tlie price adopted by Mr. Treat was $1.25, the same as in the schedule of 1890 and in the estimate of the board, but with certain conditions, which, as before mentioned with reference to the price of earth excavation, made a material increase. The average contract price on the Chicago Drainage Canal was about 75 cents. The conditions under which this work would be done in the western division are much less favorable than at the Chicago Drainage Canal, for reasons before given, and for the additional reason that the material is largely hard volcanic rock, which breaks up much less readily, and where the cost of making the sides of the canal smooth, so as to be practicable for the passage of vessels, would be considerahly greater. At Chicago, as is well known, competition is extremely keen. On the eastern division the conditions are less favorable in every way, and the increase of 50 cents to the western division price per cubic yard is a very moderate allowance therefor. The economic methods developed at the Chicago Drainage Canal will be applicable here to a very small extent only. The average contract price of rock excavation at the Chicago Drainage Canal is about 75 cents per cubic yard. The rock is a soft limestone, horizontally stratified, which can be drilled easily, which breaks up well with explosives, and in which tlie sides can be made smooth cheaply by channeling machines. The ground is level, the rock being gen- erally found at the surface, and the plant for the removal of the material is easily handled, to say nothing of the unusual and extraordinary facilities furnished by railways for fiirnisbiug access to the work on both banks. The contract price for the large amount of rock excavation at the Jerome Park reservoir, New York City, placed under contract for the last year, is about 80 cents per cubic yard. The rock is a laminated gneiss, which would be somewhat more diUicult to' drill and blast than the limestone in the Chicago Drainage Canal, and less so than the so-called conglomerate in the east divide. EARTH EMBANKMENTS. The price adopted by the board and that adopted by the company in 1895 are the same, except that it was found that the excavation in the east divide would not supply a sufficient amount of clay for the embankments in the San Francisco basin. An addition was therefore made to cover the cost of excavating and loading on cars the required additional material. The company made no allowance for this unavoid- able item of cost. By building considerable additional railroad line a portion of this required material could be had from the several short excavations for the canal in the San Francisco basin, but the cost would probably be at least as much as by the method considered by the board. The estimate for embankment for the San Francisco division in 1890 is 3,250,000 cubic yards at 30 cents. The company's 1895 estimate is over 6,000,000 cubic yards, using the same unit price, without noting the fact that the practical doubling of the quantity will necessitate borrowing to build tlie embankments. The board found it absolutely necessary to make an increased allowance to meet this additional cost. ROCK EXCAVATION UNDER WATER. The main body of this work must be done in the upper 30 miles of the San Juan River. The company's unit price for this in 1890 is $5, which they reduced to $3 in their revised estimate of 1895. The cost of this class of work has been greatly reduced in recent years. The larger part of the work has been done by Mr. Charles F. Dunbar, of Buffalo, who is the inventor of devices by which a large reduction of cost has been effected. Consider- ing Mr. Dunbar the highest living authority on this ([uestion, he was consulted by the board, and suggested the unit price of $5 to $6 per cubic yard for Nicaragua, and the board adopted the lower of his figures. Mr. Dunbar has recently authorized the use of his name in this connection. The low price paid for this class of work under a current contract on St. Marys River, Michigan, viz, $2.43 per cubic yard, is not a criterion for the coat of work in 37G NICARAGUA CANAL. Nicaragua. The rock in the St. Marys River is horizontally stratified limestone, easily blasted and dredgiMl. The work is done in a more favorable climate and in the neighborhood of all the facilities for the supply and maintenance of the plant. In adopting the lowest figure named by Mr. Dunbar for work of this class, the board has gone to the lowest limit which it believed to be permissible under the circumstances, particuhnly as in the case of the St. Marys River the depth of exca- vation is only 22 feet, while in the San Juan River it is 28 feet and over, and the proper disposition to be nuide of the material arises as a question for careful con- sideration and may involve special arrangements for guiding the flow of the stream and the maintenance of the channel depth, resulting in a practical increase of cost. LOCK CONSTKUCTION. It is to be noted that the company's project makes use of no other material in the construction of the locks than concrete, if the estimates are to be followed in this respect. The various canal publications and statements indicate the use of ashler masonry to some extent, and other material which, however, are lacking from the estimates, which provide only for concrete at $6 per cubic yard. For example; Mr. Menocal's Chicago pa]ier, pages 33 and 34, stated the body of the lock is to be of concrete, with cut sfoiio in the miter sills, the hollow fjuoins, and such angles as need protection iVom shocks. Of all this nothing appears in the estimate. The board has found dilHculty in understanding what the company really proposed, as there are absolutely no detailed or construction drawings of any kind, and in forming its own estinuite and computing the cost of these locks the board was forced to prepare for its own use preliminary drawings of this kind. It is evident that the use of a resisting and massive material is absolutely neces- sary in lock construction, to take up the shock and friction due to the passage of large vessels, and the practice is universal of using either a very high order of brick masonry or the use of solid cut stone — limestone or granite of the toughest and most resisting kind. The use of these materials is not only necessary in connection with the movement of vessels, but also to insure tiie solidity of anchorages for the gates and other appli- ances in connection with the operation of the lock. The company disregards all these considerations and uses, exclusively, a concrete in the proportions, as stated by the chief engineer, of one volume of cement, two of sand, and live of broken stone, at an estimated cost of $6 per cubic yard. Under the conditions existing in Nicaragua, where there appears to be an entire absence of stone suitable for ashler masonry, the use of concrete for the main walls of the lock is permissible, and was contemplated in the estimates of the board. Greater strength, however, should be given to exposed angles by the introduction of first-class stonework. The estimate of the Board covers the cost of this material for the hollow quoins only ; that is, the portions of the walls in which the posts of the gates will turn. This is certainly the minimum amount of this material which should be used, and is much less than in any other known construction. Granite should be used for this purpose, and would have to be transported from abroad. The cost of this would bo al)out $60 per cubic yard, which, of course, includes the expensive stone cutting necessary to adapt it to its uses and the special plant required for laying it in place. It would probably be judicious to use the same class of material at the other exposed angles and for the miter sills, as specified by the chief engineer in his Chi- cago pa]ier, but not provided for in his estimates. In addition to this, in view of the unprecedented dimensions of the locks as pro- posed, and the uncertain nature of the material in which, of necessity, the locks must rest, and the possiljility of the variation in tlie nature and supporting power of this material within the limits of the lock area, the board has considered the possible necessity of strengthening the lower portions of these structures by steel beams embedded in the concrete. This is especially important in view of the tendency of the middle of the lock bottom to rise in consequence of the great upward pressure from below which can not be counterbalanced by the empty lock. It appeared to the iioard that another considerable addition to the estimates was neccssaiy to provide protection to the inner surfaces of the culverts for the admission to or discharge of water from the lock. This might be provided by a lining of hard brick, or by a metal lining. The estimates of the board jirovide for the latter. Mr. Wheeler, the superintending engineer at the St. Marys Falls Canal lock, in his article on lock coustrucf i(ui in the Fngineering News of .lune 2, 1803, makes a total estimate for a system of six locks at Nicaragua, each of 36 feet 7 inches lift, amount- ing to $1,000,000 for each lock at United States prices, and on the assumption that the lock is to be built on a rock foundation. Starting with this figure of $1,000,000 for the lock itself, adding $400,000 for additional concrete, to constitute a lock found.a- tion in lieu of the rock considered by Mr. Wheeler, makes $1,400,000 at United States NICARAGUA CANAL. 377 prices. This totnl needs translation into Nicaraguan prices, for which an additional allowance of not less than 50 per cent should be made, making the Nicaragua cost of the lock, exclusive of excavation of the lock site, $2,100,000, making a total of $6,300,000 for the three locks of the eastern division, with which may be compared the total in the company's estimate of $3,236,000, which the board believes should be increased by the substitution of four locks for three, with a corresponding total of $7,000,000 as the additional allowance of 50 per cent for different conditions in Nica- ragua may easily be increased. CANAL AND CHANNEL DIMENSIONS. — LOCKS. The 1890 estimates were based upon a lock width of 70 feet. The next announce- ment of the width occurred in the chief engineer's Chicago paper, in which he states that the width has been increased to 80 feet. In his recent testimony, on page 73, he finds no objection to this increase from 70 to 80 feet, except the cost. On page 86, referring to paragraph 12 of the board's report, in which they expressed the belief that all locks should have a width of not less than 80 feet if it be intended to provide for the passage of war vessels, the chief engineer condemns this sug- gestion as objectionable, and he regards it unnecessary to charge the enterprise Avith an excess of cost above that required for commercial purposes in order to permit of the passage of a few war vessels. This width of 80 feet announced in his Chicago paper in 1893, has been rejieated in all recent publications of the company, and is now repudiated and condemned. The board adhere to its belief that 80 feet should be regarded as a minimum width, in view of the use by the United States Government of the canal to facilitate the movements of its Navy and the control of the work in case of war. On pages 58 and 65 of his testimony the chief engineer mistatcs the dimensions of the Suez Canal. He gives the depth at 26 feet,"and the width as less than 100 feet. As a matter of iact the least depth in the Suez Canal at this time is 27 feet 10 inches, and for the most part it is 29 feet 6 inches, and the administration pro- poses an ultimate depth of 32 feet 10 inches. The canal, as constructed, was 72 feet wide, with passing places excavated at intervals in the bank. These passing places have since been eliminated by the widening of the canal to 110 feet, this widening having been completed with the exception of 10 or 12 miles out of the 100. It is to be noted, however, that even with this widening vessels are not permitted to pass each other underway. When two vessels meet one must go to the bank and tie up while the other moves safely by. In order to provide for tLie free navigation of the canal and expedite the move- ments of ships by rendering it unnecessary for them to stop, the administration, in connection with the increased depth to 32 feet 10 inches, provides for a widening to 216 feet on the straight stretches of the canal and on curves to 242 feet, these widths being measured on the bottom of the canal. With these widths the company believe that the navigation will be free and unobstructed. These dimensions are to be compared with the proposed dimensions of the Nica- ragua Canal, with bottom widths in various sections ranging from 120 feet in the sea- level portions to 100 feet, with vertical sides in the rock portions, and 80 feet at several minor isolated sec+ions. The depth is stated as 30 feet, except in the sea-level sections and in the river, where for 30 miles it is to be 28 feet. From these depths, however, as has been previously noticed, must be deducted the variation from what the chief engineer calls the "average summit level," to provide for the vertical oscillations of the lake surface. He estimates these oscillations, in one case, at 3 feet, in another portion of his testimony at 4 feet, and in another place states that the range of the lake has been noted as 10 feet. The board has found reason to believe that the lake has varied so much as 14 feet; Menocal admits 10, but no systematic observations have ever been made to determine the lake regimen, iipon which depends that of the river. With a range of 4 feet the 28-foot river channel becomes but a 26-foot channel, in which, allowing for 2 feet as a minimum below the keel of a vessel, nothing deeper than a 24-foot ship can pass. Should this range amount to so much as 5 feet the maximum depth becomes 23i feet. If it be found impossible to control the oscilla- tions of the lake within less than 10 feet the reduction in depth in the channel will be 5 feet, and nothing deeper than a 21-foot shij) can pass. In each of these cases the channel would be impassable for heavy war ships, as well as for trading vessels, the increasing dimensions of which experience has shown can be more economically run with large dimensions than with smaller. In the case of the Suez Canal, with the minimum depth of 27 feet 10 inches now existing, the maximum draft of vessels permitted in the sandy bed of that water- way is 25 feet 7 inches, leaving 2 feet and 3 inches between the keel of the vessel and the sand bottom. Objection is made to the board's suggestion that the width of the deepened chan- nel in the river should be increased &om 125 feet, as the company proposes, to not 378 NICARAGUA CANAL. less than 250 feet, with additional widening in the bends, and the chief engineer contends that in onr consideration of this snbjoct we have been misled by our acquaintance with the reqnirenients of the lake navigation, with which, apparently, he believes that of the Nicaragua Canal is not justly comparable. As stated in tlie board's report the minimum width for the river and lake channels on the lakes is 300 feet, increased in places to 500 and 600 and even 800 feet. It should be observed that these dimensions were fixed, not recently, but many years before the lake traffic liatl attained its present proportions, Avhen the vessels were much smaller than now, of less draft, and therefore more manageable in a narrow channel, and as a whole very much less than the traffic which it is proposed to provide for in the case of the Nicaragua Canal. The St. Claire Flats Canal, which forms the exit from the St. Claire River into the lake, a work designed aulans proposed by the canal comjiany for the restoration of the harbor are based. This is correct only in so far as it relates to the construc- tion of a pier, seaward, for retarding the filling of sand at the mouth of the harbor. NICARAGUA CANAL. 370 The principal upon ■which Mr. Menocal buihls, as stated in his doscription of tho Nicaragua Canal project, read before the World's Columbian Water (Commerce Con- gress, Chicago, 1893, and in numerous other papers and reports, is that the harbor will be restored by building a jetty perpendicularly to the shore line, projecting seaward aboiit 2,000 or 3,000 leet to the G-fathom curve, and dredging in its lea. The shifting sands, arrested by the jetty, are to gather in tho east angle formed by it and the coast, and when it has advanced to the end of the pier, with a tendency to move around it, short extensions from time to time can bo made, until tlie now coast line on the east l)ccomes, in its general direction, perpendicular to the prevail- ing nortlienst winds, when " no further change on the coast need then be apprehended and the ]icrnianent restoration of tlu^ harbor will be accomplished." Tliis ]irincip]e the board has not accepted, as I understand. To put out a jetty to reach a point from whicli a line drawn normal to the north- east winds would a]iiiroximate a direct extension of tlie coast line, within wliicli I think the attainment of such a line of fill is exceedingly problematical, would require tlie jetty to be about 3 miles in length. This would entail an extraordinary expense — make the cost greatly more than a harbor in the location recommended by the board, and, in my oi)iuion, there is no assurance of permanency when that length be reached. The investigations of the board show a wasting of the coast to tho eastward and a tilling to the westward, and in the bight of which the Creytown Harbor Avas originally a part. The neutral ])()int I)etween these, where there is at present a more nearly stable condition, is about where the pier or jetty and the harbor mouth are recommended to be established by the board. At this point deep water is much nearer, and if a point is within reach of a jetty, where the new east coast line will stop tho drift of sand, it will be found here at one-third of the distance necessary in the location by the canal company. The sands drift into the Greytown bight from the north as well as from the east, and the company has placed its works right in the spot whei'e they have to contend with these forces in their greatest strength, because, as stated by Mr. Miller, they "naturally supposed that a good place to make an entrance to a harbor would be where one existed many years before." I think the bight will be destroyed inevitably, and an entrance at the point iiro- posed by the company can be kept open only by dredging and annual extensions of tho jetty to an extraordinary length. I see nothing in the results attained when the present pier was constructed to augur permanency of entrance or restoration of the harbor. It only shows what could be attained it^^ the drifting of the sands across the entrance could be permanently arrested. How far a jetty or pier would have to extend to effect this, if at all, was not demonstrated. The location proposed by the board will be found, I am confident, to be the cheaper for a harlior of the same character anil amplitude, taking into consideration its future maintenance. Of the objections to the plan recommended by tho board, Mr. Miller and Mr. Menocal regard one as conclusive, namely, that it locates the entrance in Costa Kican territory. Mr. Miller, on page 12 of the testimony, states: "In reference to the entrance to the harbor being moved a mile ami a half east, I wojild say that, in the first place, we could not go there. If we went there we would Ije in Costa Kican territory and our concession dcmatKh that the canal shall begin and end in Nicaraguau territory." Mr. Menocal, on page 71 of the testimony, states: "Tho Government of Nicaragua will not assent to it. The canal concession provides that the company xhall build one first-class harbor on tho coast of Nicaragua at each terminus of the canal, on the Atlantic and Pacific oceans." The concession from Nicaragua, of 1887, as printed in House Eeport No. 1201, Fifty- third Congress, second session, states in the decree, on pnge 23, "both having sulfi- cient powers, have entered into the folio wiiig contract for the excavation of an interoceauic canal through the territory of Nicaragua." In Article XVI, on page 2fi, it states: "The company shall construct, at its expense, and maintain in good condition, two largo ports, one in the Atlantic and one in the Pacific. * * * It niai/, for this purpose, select on the coasts of the two oceans, within the territory of Nicaragua, tho localities which the surveys may indicate as preferable." In the contract with Costa Kica of 1888, confirmed more than one year subsequent to that WMth Nicaragua, it is provided in Article XIV, page 38, of the same report, No. 1201, as follows: "The association shall construct, at its expense, and shall keep in good condition, two large ports, one on tho Atlantic and one on the Pacific, at such points or localities as it may select within or n-ithoiit the territory of Costa Rica, to serve as termini of the canal." All the italics arc mine. '>'S0 NICARAGUA CANAL. Thesft provisions do not seem to mo to demand that the ports or termini shall be within Nicaraifuan territory. They appear to me to xirovide simply that they may be. But this may be a matter for legal construction, DREDGING AT GREYTOWN. Considerable effort has been made to show, during the hearings before your com- mittee, that the estimate of the board of 25 cents per cubic yard for the dredging in (Jreytown Harl)or, is excessive. As explained in tli(3 rejiort, this estimate is based upon 20 cents for the interior Avorlc and 40 cents for work in the entrance, an average of 25 cents being used. The dredging in Mobile Harbor, now being done at a cost of 7^ cents per cubic yard, is most dwelt upon as evidence of an excessive estimate. Tlio cost of all dredging is dependent upon the conditions obtaining at each situation, else why does it vary in this country from a few cents to 60 cents per cubic yard? To say tliat a cost of TJ cents at Mobile sliould govern an estimate nt (Jrey- town, without considering the relative conditions, is no fairer than it would be to claim that the cost of dredging at Galveston, at 60 cents per cubic yard, within the past liscal year, should determine an estimate of 60 cents for dredging in Greytown Harbor. The material in Mobile Harbor being removed for 7f cents per cubic yard is classed as 90 per cent soft clay — river mud. It is ideal dredging, exactly adapted to appa- ratus used — clam-shell dredges. The machinery is simple, easily and cheaply kept in order; the fuel is cheap ; the labor is cheap ; the situation, a smooth interior harbor; tlui depth, extreme, 23 feet; in short, everj^thing favors small cost. Another contract in same harbor, completed just as the above began, in materi.al 60 jier cent sand and 38 per cent clay, was at 15 cents per cubic yard, and one for material 81 ]ier cent sand was for 16i cents. At Galveston the prices have been, within a very recent period, 12|^ to 60 cents, the dredging on tlie l»ar being 35 cents, all scow measurements. In Mobile the 7| cents contract is for the mud measured in scotcs. It probably measures somewhere from 30 to 40 per cent more in scows than in the cut. The dredging at Greytown is estimated in the cut, neat dimensions, and the material is solid. Add to the price for mud dredging at Mobile at 7^ cents, 35 per cent for measure- ment in cut over measui-emeut in scows, a proper increase for sand over mud, a )>ropcr increase for a dei)th of 30 feet over one of 23 feet, also increases for cost of fuel, skilled labor, the establishment of a repair-shop plant in Nicaragua, unfavor- able climatic conditions, etc., and it must be seen that the price of the inside work would cost 20 cents per cubic yard, as estimated by the board, upon the basis of the work now being done at Mobile. The board estimated 40 cents for outside work, also measured in the cut. It is costing 35 cents at Galveston, measured in scows. The .above work, instead of vitiating, really warrants the board's estimate, and serves to point tlie error of drawing conclusions from prices iiaid .at a particular ))()int without careful consideration of all the circumstances. The l)oard took into view all the conditions and endeavored to arrive at a fair and reasonable estimate, BENARD LAGOON, With regard to the change of location of the line to avoid the Benard Lagoon, this is only a suggestion of the board in case examinations of the lagoon develop conditions indicjited at the entrance. The possibility of iinding the conditions feared by the board is not a remote one If they are found we think the line should be changed to avoid it. Our estimates, however, are not for a change of line, but for the present location of the company. OCHOA DAM, In oral testimony before the committee, and in his written statement, Mr. Menocal makes a very elaborate defense of this dam, as it was proposed to be built l)y the canal company, and attempts to show that the diCliculties and dangers in its con- struction and use, as set forth by the board, are without fonudation. The estimate submitted to the; board by Mr. Menocal when it was making up its report last fall, in New York, was, for this d:un, $i)77,273, which was $250,135.50 in excess of the last previous estimate of the company. In his present testimony, besides commenting adversely upon the board's views as to lh(! then proposed structure, he characterizes the estimate of the board for this work, which is $4,000,000, iu the following words, on page 64: "I regard the estimate NICARAGUA CANAL. 381 of sPl, 500,000 for strengthening the dam as a gross exaggeration, and I regard the other estimate of $1,500,000 to take away the flow of 'the river during the construction of the dam as dangerous and likely to lead to disaster." Now, referring ito his testimony ou page 60, he states, describing the dam, "I propose to give it a base of about 1,000 feet" (in the description of the dam given by him to the board under date of September 14, 1895, he states this dimension will be prolsably from 400 to 500 feet), and on page 57, in reply to an inquiry as to what he estimated the cost of the Ochoa dam, he is said to have replied, "inside oT $3,000,000," which, as I now understand, he has corrected to $2,000,000. If these latter statements indicate anything it is that since the board made its report as to the proper dinu(nsions and cost of "this structure he has doubled the width of the base and Increased its estimated cost from about $1,000,000 to about $2,000,000. Yet the board's estimate of $1,500,000 to strengthen it is a gross exaggeration, uotwith- standing he seems now to estimate $1,000,000 for that very purpose. Notwithstanding his strenuous opposition to the views of the board in respect of this structure he seems to have concluded to follow them somewhat closely in the matter of what its dimensions should be, and the canal company is to be congratu- lated upon this step in the right direction, if this ap])arent change of mind of Mr. Menocal means that the company's project has enjoyed a similar alteration. As Mr. Menocal's testimony develops that he is not now, and never has been, the engineer of the Maritime Canal Company, and is not now the engineer of the con- struction company, it is not known whether his present statements as to what ho would do are to be regarded as a change of the project of the Maritime Canal Com- pany. When Mr. Menocal presented to the board the maps, data, and project of the Maritime Canal Company the board had that company's authority to receive them as authoritative. Whether in his statements before your committee he represents the Maritime Canal Company, the construction company, or himself, I am not advised. In any event, so far as the merits of the review of the Maritime Canal Company's project by the board is concerned, they are to be considered and discussed as upon the plaus'and projects as they existed when the board considered them and made its report, and not upon what Mr. Menocal now says, in the light of tlie Board's criti- cisms, he would make them. In the present defense of what the company proposed or he proposes to do at Ochoa, Mr. Menocal relies with most stress and particularity upon experiences in India in tlie following words: In searching for precedents of rock-till or dry-rubble dams built on sandy bottom to withstand the flow of large volumes of water over their tops, we will liaveto look at the irrigation works of India, where such methods of construction have been in i)ractice for many years,'' etc. I acknowledge the richness of the field in India for the study of all that relates to works of irrigation and the storage of water by means of dams; and in the search for examples illustrating the ap])lication and eftects of principles underlying the construction of dams, while investigating the problem at Ochoa, I found it a most fruitful and fascinating field ; but I do not now recall a single rock-fill dam, aa understood in this counti-y, and proposed at Ochoa, in all India. Let us see what are the structures referred to, and of which five are specifically cited and described by Mr. INIenocal on page 75, and upon which he relies, with similar others, as precedents for the success of the Ochoa Dam as intended. ^l/a;,s«?-.— Keference is first made to " rough stone weirs at the heads of most of the irrigation channels in ISIaisur, which raise the level of the water to the required height, the lowest being 7 feet and the highest 25 feet." It will be interesting and valuable to quote the description of these same works by an English engineer of experience in India, as follows: "The ordinary stone dam or anient in Maisur varies from 7 to 25 feet in height. It consists of a mass of dry rubble, faced with large stones, placed on a rocky site, the front casing of stones oi feet by \l feet l)y 1 "foot, the rear aprons of large stone blocks 9 by Si by 2 feet, each stone projecting for one-third of its length beyond that above it, or about 2^ feet. The interstices are filled with small rubble. These works are unstable and leaky, allowing all the summer discharge to escape, and only supplying the channels in seasons of flood, Avhen again they are easily damaged and breached. The dams are curved and point upstream, having a length about double the width of the river. The crown is lower near the head sluices to relieve the pressure against them in flood." Wilson, referring to these rough stone weirs at heads of channels in Maisur, says: " These illustrations gave a fair idea of the attention given by the natives to this class of work, and indicate the fallacy of trusting to size and position of the mate- rial instead of to the homogeneity of the work. Notwithstanding the employment of large blocks of stone and skillful application of material, the dam was breached five times between 1842 and 1863." Mudclen. — If the "Mudden" weir referred to in the next paragraph is the "Mad- 382 NICARAGUA CANAL. (lur " of the same district, it also is founded upon rock. It is to be observed that it was reconstructed and a brick autl mortar wall iutroduced across its iipper face. Agra. — The Agra weir is cited as representing a quite usual type of rough weirs built in sandy bottoms, with crest 10 feet above river bed, and length of 2,575 feet. The flood discharge is said to be as high as 1,300,000 cubic feet per second, and the depth of water over the crest about 10 feet. The history of tliis weir is most interesting and instructive, and I therefore give space to a brief description of it and its vicissitudes. This weir is said to have the greatest width in cross section of any weir in India. As tinally constrncted, for it went through various stages of design, it is described by several authors as having first, two longitudinal solid masoury walls extending to the bed of the river, about 30 feet apart. About 40 feet below the second wall is a third, 4 feet U inclies high. The upstream slope is liand packed and laid dry. On the downstream slope the intervals between the walls are filled with large rubblestoue, and A'ery carefully dry parked with very large rubble ou top. The rubble used in the packing is very large, some stones being as much as 6 feet by 3 feet by 2^ feet, the walls acting as bars to prevent them sliding. There are 10 sluices in this weir, each 6 feet wide by 10 feet high. The crest of the -weir is 10 feet above the lloors of the under sluices. The weir and under sluices are founded upon the sandy bed of the river without any fouudatiou below. The head sluices are founded upon blocks or wells sunk to depths of from 9 to 20 feet and hearted with concrete. The construction of this weir was begun in 1870, but it was very badly damaged before its completion by a flood which nearly carried away the head sluices and scowed out a hole 50 feet deep at the end of the floor. The velocity over the crest of the weir at this time was 9.3 feet per second, and was estimated to be 18 feet per second some (iO feet below tlie crest. During several successive years the lower end was carried away, and changes each year made in its design and construction, until in 1875 it had been built of such form and dimensions and by such method as enabled it to withstand the floods. The flood action on the rear slope, although 1 in 20, is very severe. Even in its final shape engineers have expressed doubts of its stability. Tlie accompanying plan shows the successive changes in construction it underwent to enable it to withstand a Hood, much less stressful, as we shall see, than those the Ochoa Dam is likely to meet. It will be seen that its first construction, in 1870, was nnich superior to that proposed at Ochoa, not only as related to the duty to be met, but per so, and yet it was inadequate; and it underwent various changes, each one of whicli was a still greater departure from any semblance to the contemplated Ochoa Dam, and its final outcome is a haud-made weir of the most careful and substantial coustruction, which, since its fiual reconstruction in 1875, has apparently stood with- out serious injury. Mr. Menocal states that the flood discharge is as high as 1,300,000 cubic feet per second, the depth of water over the crest being 10 feet. If this auu)unt of water flowed over the dam, of the depth stated, the velocity would Ije about 50 feet i)er secoiul, or over 34 miles per hour. This seems almost incredible. In the flood of 1871, when it was jiartially destroyed, the velocity over the crest wns only 9i^,f feet per second. It is prol)ablo, therefore, that the statement of Mr. Buckley (who is an authority upon irrigation in India) that the discharge of the river in high flood is only about 1.50,000 cubic feet per second is the correct one, and the sluices, to which no reference was made, ])ass a considerable portion of this. I fere is a low Avier, only 10 feet high, with a long, flat slope of 1 in 30, begun and built in the dry, with a masoury crest wall extending down to the river lied, with carefully packed surface of heavy stone, unable to stand the flow of 150,000 cubic feet i»er second, precisely the flow which the board attributes to the 8an .luan at Ochoa, but spread out iu a thinner sheet, and which Mr. Menocal, in his third answer, on page 64, calls an insignificant stream. It was so badly damaged year after year at flood seasons that it took the dry seasons of five years to gratlually strengthen it with additional masonry, cross walls, and heavy'aud substantial hand- packed ])aving to firing it up to a condition of comparative safety. According to the theories advanced in behalf of the canal company's methods in the fourth and fifth paragraphs of page 70 of testimony, this was all wrong; ami instead of building and reconstructing this weir in the dry seasons, with the water oft', and by sulistautial and careful handwork after the design descrilied, they should have done iu)thing in the dry seasons, but carried on operations only in the floods by dropping loose stones on the site for the floods to dispose in their proper resting places. Sonne Weir. — The weir next mentioned by Mr. Menocal is the Soane, which he describes as being similar to the Agra, previously described, and as resting on wells sunk from 6 to 8 feet in the sandy bed of the river, three masonry walls being used to .-.{•: ra 4.3>\ DAM OF AGRA CANAL, OKHLA, INDIA. Transverse sections at different dates 1870-1873. ^ y^^^^ 7 ^-K < ro > Secfion 5e/ore floods 1870. ha 30 120 I'm^ Secfion before floods 1671. J in 20 Son^ ':'•': \\ '\r\-^'-^^^^ < 36 ^i"" 180 Secfion afterf foods 1871. 7 in 20 ^Qciion in 1872 1 in 20 Secfion in 1873 > ^ 7 in 20 40 Secfion Complefe. > 7 in 20 S. Rep. 1109 54—1 Scale rf J'eet. Itl. I*% "^wr. ^- 1 1 1 ^-4^ CO §■ K. i- NICARAGUA CANAL. 383 keep the small stone in place. Between the walla is a simple stone packing. He gives the height, iucludiug depth of wells, as 19.3 feet, and flood discharge 750,000 cubic feet per second. The above description is apparently derived from Mr. Wilson. Other authors give the depth of the foundation Avells as 10 feet. The spaces between these foundation ■wells are filled in with concrete, making a continuous foundation extending further below the bed of the river than the top of the weir rises above it. The height of the crest of the weir is only 8 feet above the river bed. The paving between the' masoury walls is hand-packed and laid dry with large rubble stone. The down-stream slope is very flat — 1 in 20. The entire remaining portions of the weir consist of large stone blocks dry packed, the masonry walls act- ing as bars to prevent sliding. Further, the weir is pierced with three sets of sluices, with a total of 56 openings of 20 feet 7 inches each, which pass a considerable por- tion of the floods. One important office performed by these uudersliuces is found in that the discharge through them helps to fill up the river channels below in rising floods, and so reduces the action of the floods on the weir itself. The weir becomes submerged before the flood attains its greatest height, which is 8 feet over the crest, with an aftiux of only 15 inches. If the important modification of the stress on the weir ettected by the 56 sluices were disregarded aud the entire extreme flood were supposed to pass over the crest, the velocity would be only about 10 feet per second on the crest over a submerged weir, but the sluices pass about one-third of the flood. The banks of the river are hard soil with some nodular limestone mixed with it. "In order to prevent the destruction of this weir by the action of flood waters, groynes of a peculiar shape, called alligator groynes, are constructed on both the up and down stream sides at intervals across the channel." Professor Davidson states that "notwithstanding the good workmanship and apparent security of the foundation for the scouring sluices, the floods of 1874 proved very destructive, aud not only tore away the river bed to a depth of 38 feet below the toe of the talus, but in part tore away the heavily packed interspace between the lower wall and that next above, and even partly damaged the wall. * * * The river bed scoured out above as well as below. * * * The action is very similar to that at the headworks of the Agra Canal." Bezivada ireir. — This is the fifth and last of the Indian weirs adduced as examples or precedents of rock -fill dams. This weir is founded on a double row of wells sunk 7 feet into a sandy bottom. The sandstone runs down to the river on each side of the weir. On the foundation wells there rises a massive wall of rubble masonry 13^ feet high, 12 feet base, and 6 feet top, coped with ashlar. Behind this wall a mass of rough stone of all sizes up to 5 and 6 tons in weight was deposited. At 100 feet back another wall was built, it being 6 feet below crest of the weir. Between the walls the surface of the weir is packed with the largest stones placed on end, the interstices being filled as far as possible by quarry shivers jammed well into them. Behind this second wall the apron of the weir is continued for about another 100 feet with large stones, the slope about 1 in 16. At high flood, although the water flows over the crest 20 feet deep, the weir is submerged, and the water flows over with scarcely a ripple on the surface. One year ago a short length of the body wall was .torn away. Temporary dry stone walls, 4 feet high, were annually built on the crest for the purpose of diverting more w^ater in the dry season, and alter the stone had been washed off by the floods they were used in the repair of the apron. This shows that the massive and heavily paved slope is damaged in floods and tliat repairs are made every year when the work is dry. The entire flood of 736,000 cubic feet per second mentioned does not all pass over the weir. It is to be noted that this weir has undersluices, with 60 openings 6 feet wide each, which pass a large amount of the water and help to fill up the channel below as the floods rise, and make the weir a submerged one early in the flood. I have been somewhat full in the description of these Indian weirs, because they are presented by Mr. Meuocal (p. 75) as examples of rock-fill dams, and precedents for the construction proposed by the canal company at Ochoa; and by Mr. Miller (p. 14) as being built in the same manner. As already stated in my testimony before the committee, I believe that a rock-fill dam can be successfully constructed at Ochoa, and the report of the board states as much. I do not approve, however, of the attempt at the construction of this dam by the methods proposed by the construction company, exposed to the entire flood dis- charges of the river, and its use for the purposes of a weir after completion. ^ Viewed as examples of and precedents for such construction and use these Indian weirs are failures. They are not the same kind of structure and do not perform the same office. 384 NICARAGUA CANAL. In the first place, the Indian weirs are not to be considered as storage dams. Some of them may, indeed, perform that office for a short time in the dry season. They are built as obstrnctious, to slightly elevate the river surface and divert a part of its How into irrigation and other channels. Tlie indiscriminate use of the term "weir," as descriptive of the Ochoa Dam, and of the term " rock-fill dam," as applied to the Indian weirs, must not cause the mind to lose sight of tlie great and important distinction between these two classes of structures, l)y which it is sought to present the sometimes successful and sometimes disastrous low and carefully built submerged weirs of India, as promises of safety in a high rock-fill storage dam at Ochoa to be built and used in a hazardous manner and which is to be the keystone of a project to cost, perha])s, $150,000,000. The failure of this dam would liberate the largest quantity of water ever set free at once in the history of the world. I do not think there is a single rock-fill dam in all India, or a single permanent rock-fill weir, even, in the sense of a rock-lill as intended at Ochoa. 'fhcre are, indeed, in the head works of the Ganges, three Weirs, built of rough bowlders, crossing the river one behind the other, biit these are temporary, being destroyed each year by the fioods, and it has been found necessary to rebuild them annually, new bowlders being brought down for the purpose, as the old ones are carried too far away when the dams are wrecked to be economically collected. Mr. Wilson states " only rarely are temporary weirs constructed simply of loose bowlders." They are almost always constructed substantially of masonry, and are well fimnded. The plans which I have introduced in this text will serve to show more clearly the careful construction of the Indian weirs quoted, their low height, and conse- quent light-water ])ressure, their long easy slopes, and the fact that they are in high lioods siibincrgcd weirs, their slopes enjoying this condition as well as the masonry walls and heavy carefully packed paving to protect them. The Oe-hoa Da,m would be submerged in its earlier stages of construction, but not in the later, and never after completion. Its slope would be of stones deposited at random, without cross walls to protect it, and three-fourths of it exposed at all times to the unolistructed rush of the waters down its steep declivity. In the construction of the Indian weirs a velocity of 15 feet per second on a iiat slope is regarded as a maximum. The velocity down the improved rear slope of the Ochoa Dam, during the company's construction, is quite certain to reach 25 feet per second, perhaps very much higher. The canal companies have no plan for the Ochoa Dam, so that I am unable to intro- duce one, but I have shown its outline as indicated by the written descriptions furnished to the board, and superimposed it on the Agra weir, with which it is most closely compared bj' Mr. Menocal. These plans also show more clearly to the eye the great difference between an Indian weir and the Ochoa Dam, and that they have little in common in construc- tion, dimensions, steepness of slope, height, head of water to be resisted, and exposure of slope to the action of fioods. So far are they from being examples promising success, that at least two of those cited by Mr. Menocal, from the testimony of authors conversant with them, are striking warnings of the dangers of the particular methods intended by the canal comiiany. Of the Indian weirs, many are built to be destroyed every fiood season, and to be rebuilt in the dry season. Others are built to be partially destroyed or damaged every Hood, and few escape injury. These conditions must not obtain with the Ochoa Dam. Too much depends upon it. It must be built without these risks and used without them. To avoid these dangers, the board outlined in some degree the method of construc- tion it would suggest, including the control within certain limits of the iiortion of the ilood waters to be allowed to tiowover the dam during construction, its comple- tion in the dry to 120 feet above the sea, and its absolute immunity from the passage of water over its crest and down its slope thereafter. For myself, the study of the construction of the irrigation weirs of India, the conditions to which they are subjected, and the results, not only in general, but in the very example cited by Mr. Menocal, only confirm my opinion that the precau- tions and methods contemplated by the board should be followed. FLOODS IN SAN JUAN RIVER. , Both Mr. Miller and Mr. Menocal take issue with the board in its statement that the canal company estimates the highest fiood in the San Juan at Ochoa 63,000 cubic feet ])er second (see Chicago paper, p. 19), while the board considers that 150,000 axe possible, and should bo assumed. JTigh Flood above Dam. OKHLA WEIR-AGRA CANAL. I'ength 74,3 metres .^■f.'--^..... _. i^Mr.i._ ZSlSi;- ^ - Mi2^L?1^2^—^IP^^^'^ Approximate Outline or Ochoa Dam as Proposed by Canal Company when near Completion in Broken Heavy Lines. S. Kep. 110!) 54—1 NICARAGUA CANAL. 385 The gentlemen beg the question by asserting that it was assumed that the maxi- miim flood might reach ii3,000 cubic feet per second, that this was doubled, aud provision made for a discharge of more than this over tlie weirs, etc. The board has not questioned the matter of discliarging 150,000 cubic feet per second over the weirs. Tlie board's statement had reference to the maximum flood to be encountered and handled in the construction of the Ochoa Dam and other works, and it remains aa correct, from the Chicago and other papers, that 63,000 cubic feet per second is the maximum flood the comjiauy has considerecl handling in this part of its work. The trouble with this flood is not in passing it off when the project is completed, but in handling it during construction. Mr. Menocal claims to have weirs enough to dis- charge it after completion, but denies that as much as one-half of it will be encoun- tered in construction. See the papers referred to. Mr. Menocal claims a high flood measurement of 42,000 cubic feet per second, but states that, as the river has been known to rise higher, he adds 50 per cent and assumes 63,000 cubic feet per second. The board's possible 150,000 cubic feet he characterizes as " a rough and excessive guess." The board had the gauging of 142,000 cubic feet referred to by Mr. Menocal, and while the exact location is not known the cross section is known and approximately the level, and from the data hydraulic formula give approximately the river dis- charge at its highest recorded elevation, which record of height the company has, to be nearly 125,000 cubic feet per second. Therefore 150,000 is not a rough and excessive guess, but must be approximately correct. SLOPE IN SAN JUAN RIVER. The board, in its report, stated that the slope of the river in the dry season would be so small that it would amount to pra^ctically nothing instead of 4 feet as estimated in the canal com^iany's project. Mr, Menocal, in his testimony, adheres to his original estimate of three-fourths of an inch per mile. My colleague, Mr. Noble, refers to this matter in his statement, and I only make mention here of the fact tliat Mr. Menocal, in his estimate of the slope, relies solely upon observed slopes in the river under present conditions between the lake and Toro and in the Aguas Muertas. He appears to overlook the great changes in these slopes which must occur when the level of the river surface is raised at Ochoa about 60 feet above its low stage and when the river is dredged from Toro to the lake. This rise more than doubles the average depth in the Aguas Muertas, and the cross section is increased about 300 per cent, and other conditions reducing its slope are affected accordingly. The ruling conditions from the lake to Toro also will be greatly different when the river is raised. If the average cross sections of the river, constructed for the board's calculations, are correct, and the coefhcieut of roughness of the channel is correctly assumed, the hydraulic formula must give approximately correct results for certain discharges. Fortunately an opportunity offered to check these data for one-half the length of the river. Colonel Childs, in his admirable report of his surveys for a ship caral on this route, made in 1852, gives the measured slope of the river from the lake to Toro, and also the height of the lake and the gauged discharge of the lake at the same time. As the results of the calculations of the board differed so greatly from those assumed in the company's project, I looked patiently for some means of testing our work, and finding these data in Colonel Childs's report I applied our average sections of river bed and coefficients, aud with his observed lake elevation and measured discharge, calculated a slope from the lake to Toro of 2v,,7,- feet against 2y-\,% feet actually measured by him. This satisfied me that the data used by the board were substantially correct. It is interesting, to show the great change of slope due to the elevation of the lake to 110 feet, and the increased section of the river due to dredging, to note that with the same discharge observed by Colonel Childs, the same data gives, by the same hydraulic formula, a slope of little more than one-half as many inches. And when the same data and the same formula are applied with a discharge of about 10,000 cubic feet per second, the slojie sinks, in this distance of 28 miles, or one-half the distance to Ochoa, to about 1.2 inches, and, manifestly, the slope from Toro to Ochoa is still less. What more is necessary to satisfy Mr. Menocal that the project for a ruling depth of 28 feet of water will fall to r^ne of 24 feet, and as much lower as the lake will fluctuate below 110 feet above the sea? It is only a question of how much the project will fail in being a 28-foot canal, and in the requirement of article 2 of the concession, now a contract, with the State of Nicaragua, that — "The canal shall be of sufficient dimensions for the free and commodious passage of vessels of the same size as the large steamers used for ocean navigation in Europe H C 25 386 NICARAGUA CANAL. and America." * * * To give the separate and detailed calculations conducted by members of the board, with all the calculations of coefficients C, and the long and tedious approximations for slope in the applicatiou of Kutter's formula, would be not readilj' understood by any but engineers and mathematicians and would make a considerable document in itself. Despite the loug, tedious, and painstaking labor the board has devoted to the mathematical determination of this slope in 69 miles of the river, from the most carefully obtained data it could obtain, Mr. Meuocal declares its results, in his opinion, "unwarranted and inadmissible," as opposed to his guess, for there is no claim or pretense that he or any engineer of the canal company has ever computed or attempted to compute the slope of the San Juan River. He has simply guessed at what it would be when raised to practically the level of the lake by the Ochoa dam from observations of its slope at two sections in the river as it flows to-day between its banks, 18 to 60 feet less in depth than it will be when a part of the sailing route of the canal. Date Due ^ re vdH -Listi j,tj"ib £ AKli\lb^; ON hOU^t; diLL db Hearings on House bill 35 (on the Ni lac TC 784 U58 1896 3 12b2 D^5S^ bb33 MUtt^ m i) B » ( i»