f \, ; > i eomMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA a Sn eg HEARING COMMITTEE ON THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES __SIXTY-FOURTH CONGRESS H. R. 12653 TO PROVIDE FOR THE USE OF PUBLIC-SCHOOL BUILDINGS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA AS COMMUNITY FORUMS, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES APRIL 12, 13, anv 14, 1916 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1916 fic. ee ee COMMITTEE ON THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 4 HOovusE OF REPRESENTATIVES. SIXTY-FOURTH CONGRESS. BEN JOHNSON, Kentucky, Chairman. WYATT AIKEN, South Carolina. EMMETT WILSON, Florida. ROBERT CROSSER, Obio.,; — BENJAMIN C. HILLIARD, Colorado. JAMES T. LLOYD, Missouri. WILLIAM J. CARY, Wisconsin, “JAMES A. HAMILL, New Jersey. CARL E. MAPES, Michigan. CHARLES O. LOBECK, Nebraska. > BENJAMIN K. FOCHT, Pennsylvania. MICHAEL EF. BURKE, Wisconsin. LOREN E. WHEELER, Illinois. J. WILLARD RAGSDALH, South Carolina. GEORGE P. DARROW, Pennsylvania. CARL VINSON, Georgia. P. DAVIS OAKEY, Connecticut. PETER J. DOOLING, New York. NORMAN J. GOULD, New York. WARREN WORTH BAILEY, Pennsylvania. GEORGE HOLDEN TINKHAM, Massachusetts. Sam W. EskKeEw, Clerk. 2 _ COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, CoMMITTEE ON THE Disrricr or CoLuMBIA, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, D. C., April 12, 1916. The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. Ben atheat (chair- man) presiding. Mr. Jonson. The object of the meeting to-day is to grant a hear- ing upon House bill 12653. The committee will not be disposed to hear everybody who may wish to be heard, but will hear a liberal number upon each side of the question. The proponents of the measure will be heard first, in liberal number, as I said, and after . \\that those who are opposed to the bill, or who have amendments to Uf offer to it, will be heard. I wish to emphasize that everybody can \ not i heard, but that a reasonable number upon each side will be \\ hear : ee is the spokesman upon this occasion for the proponents of the bill? Mr. Epwarp J. Warp. Miss Margaret Woodrow Wilson, the chair- man of the committee of the Grover Cleveland Forum. . Mr. JoHnson. We will be very glad indeed to hear from you, Miss Wilson. STATEMENT OF MISS MARGARET WOODROW WILSON, CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE OF THE GROVER CLEVELAND FORUM. Miss Witson. Mr. Johnson, may I give each member of the com- mittee a copy of the bill, with some little amendments upon which we have all agreed ? Mr. Jonnson. Certainly. Miss Witson. I should like first, Mr. Chairman, to read the bill straight through. Mr. JoHunson. Whatever is your pleasure. - Miss Witson (reading) : A BILL To provide for the use of public-school buildings in the District of Columbia as community forums, and for other’ purposes. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That upon the approval of this act the Board of Education of the District of Columbia is authorized and directed, and it shall be its duty, to designate ten public-school buildings in said District for use as community forums; and upon the expiration of one year thereafter the said board may from time to time, in its discretion, designate other and addi- tional public-school buildings for use as community forums. You notice we have substituted “board of education” in the sap of “ commissioners,” and we have done that all through the bill, be- cause there has been a slight misunderstanding of having the com- missioners, in the first place, designate the territorial limits within 3 oe A 3422318 4 ' COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. which we must reside to become members of the community-center organizations. It does not matter to us who makes convenient the use of the school buildings for the people, just so that is done. We gave it to the commissioners in the first place, because the commis- sioners represent Congress in the administration of the government of the District of Columbia for the grown-up people, and the board of education represents Congress in its authority over the children; so we thought it very appropriate that the commissioners should out- line the districts for the territories in which the grown-up people must live to become members of the community-forum organization, But it is Just a matter of machinery; it does not matter who does it; and so for the purpose of not making a false issue, an issue between the commissioners and the board of education (since there is none at all), we suggest that the board of education be given the authority to make convenient the use of the school buildings for the people. Mr. Jonnson. Miss Wilson, I might perhaps give you a little in- formation—that the school board does not represent the children alone, for the reason that in the District of Columbia there is no maximum school age. Miss Witson. I see. Mr. Jounson. We have a number of times found persons in the schools here nearing 70 years of age. Miss Wirson. I see. Well, of course, it does not really matter who does it, just so the wishes of the people are carried out in connection with the free use of the school buildings; so that all through this bill we have substituted “board of education” for ‘‘ commissioners ” where the word “ commissioners” appeared before. [Reading:] Sec. 2. That whenever application shall be made in writing to the Board of Education of the District of Columbia by not less than twenty adult persons residing within a radius of one-half mile of a public-school building designated by the said board for use as a community forum the said board shall define and fix the territorial limits within which adult persons must reside to entitle them to membership and participation in an association of adult persons to use aS a community forum a public-school building designated by the said board for that purpose. Sec. 3. That whenever application is made to the Board of Education of the District of Columbia as provided in section two of this act the said board shall direct the superintendent of public schools, or the principal of a school building designated by the said board for use as a community forum, and it shall be the duty of the said superintendent or principal, pursuant to such direction, to assist. in the formation or organization of the association of adult persons for com- munity-forum purposes. The said superintendent or principal shall issue the call for the meeting for organizing such association and shall serve as organizing secretary until an association of adult members shall have been formed and organized. The board of education shall announce, through publication in one daily newspaper in the District of Columbia, the date and hour of the meeting for organization, which shall be not less than one week or more than two weeks following the receipt of the application provided for in this section and at es time requested in the application filed with the said board. Sec. 4. That at a meeting of adult persons called for the organization of an_ association for community forum purposes the said persons are authorized to elect necessary officers and to prescribe and adopt by-laws and regulations for the conduct of the meetings of the association. The by-laws and regulations as adopted shall show that the primary object of the association is the public education of the community through the open presentation and free discussion of public questions, and nothing contained in the by-laws and regulations shall limit the attendance or membership of persons at meetings of the association, except as provided in section two of this act. The by-laws and regulations shall authorize and provide for the principal of the school building designated: as a community forum or a person to be nominated by the principal to serve as executive secretary of the association. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. . 5 Sec, 5. That when an organization of adult persons shall have been formed ‘and by-laws and regulations adopted for the conduct of the meetings of the “association as provided in the preceding section, it shall be the duty of the ‘board of education to make all hecessary arrangements and provision for the comfortable and convenient use of the school building for the weekly, biweekly, or monthly meetings of such association at such times as the association may designate for its meetings. Amendments to the by-laws and regulations not in conflict with the provisions of section four of this act may be made at any regular meeting of the said association. No public-school building shall be used under the provisions of this act during such hours as the building is in use for the instruction of pupils. SEc. 6. That whenever a public-school building shall have been designated and established as a community forum under the provisions of this act, and ‘upon request made to the Board of Education of the District of Columbia so ‘to do by the association of adult persons entitled to use the building for such purpose, the said board shall designate such building to be used also as a community center for the organized training and recreation of young people, including such activities as may be requested by the said association and ap- proved by the said board. The building shall be available for use as a com- munity center at such times as may be requested by the said association of adult persons. The herein provided for community center meetings and activi- ‘ties shall be open and available in the discretion of the executive secretary for adult persons residing in the community. The said board shall not during the period of cne year following the date of the approval of this act designate more than three public-school] buildings for use as community centers, but thereafter the said board may from time to time, in their discretion, designate other and additional school buildings for such purpose. Sec. 7. That upon the designation of a publie-school building for use as a com- munity center it shall be the duty of the board of education to make all ar- rangements for the comfortable and convenient use of the school building for such purpose. The executive secretary provided for in section four of this act shall serve in a like capacity in community center meetings and activities, and shall have direction over the use of thé school building while so used. The said executive secretary shall be provided with two assistants, one male and one female, who shall under the said secretary be charged with organizing and directing the activities provided for in section six of this act. Sec. 8. That the executive secretary authorized by this act for each public- ‘school building designated and used as a community forum or as a community forum and community center shall be entitled to compensation at the rate of $4 for each meeting of such community forum or community center, and the two assistants herein authorized for each building used as a conununity center shall receive for their services compensation at the rate of $2 each for each meeting: Provided, That compensation shall be paid only for services actually rendered at and in connection with meetings of community forums and com- munity centers. : _ Sec. 9. That it shall be the duty of the board of education to provide out of appropriations of public funds authorized for the public schools of the District of Columbia light, heat, janitor service, and such other incidental expenses as may be necessary to enable the comfortable and convenient use of public-school ‘buildings designated by the board of education of said District for use as com- munity forums and community centers, and hereafter the board of education shall include in its annual estimates of appropriations for the expenses of the public schools such sum or sums as may be required to provide for the pay- ment of compensation and expenses authorized by this act in connection with the use of public-school buildings as community forums and community centers. To provide until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and seventeen, for the pay- ment of expenses and compensations authorized by this act, including additional compensation for janitors, and for extra janitor service when necessary, there is hereby appropriated the sum of $15,000, one-half out of any moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated and one-half from the revenues of the District of Columbia. ! We are indebted to the janitors for another amendment here. They pointed out to us that it was better to include the appropriation in this act. I will read the amendment as we suggest it: To provide until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and seventeen, for the pay- ment of expenses and compensations authorized by the act, including pe 6 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. compensation for janitors, and for extra janitor service when necessary, there is hereby appropriated the sum of $15,000, one-half out of any moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated and one-half from the revenues of the District of Columbia. You see that is to provide for all these activities until such time as the board of education makes up its new budget. The janitors pointed out to us that this would be necessary, and we are very much indebted to them for pointing this out. Mr. Jonnson. I will invite your attention ‘nae to the fact that this committee has no right to appropriate money. That must come from the Committee on ~ A ppropriations. With that in the bill it would be possible to raise a question of appropriation and take away from the House the consideration of the bill. Miss Witson. And take away from the House the consideration of the bill? Mr. Jounson. With that provision in; yes. Miss Wirson. Then what would the committee think about that, Mr. Ward? Mr. Jounson. This committee should authorize, and then the Ap- propriations Committee could appropriate any money in the appro- priations bill. Miss Wirson. Then this committee would simply authorize in this? Mr. Lioyp. We can amend that for you. Mr. Jonnson. The committee can change that so as to make it an authorization instead of an appropriation. Miss Witson. And then the: appropriation would most likely be made, would it not? Mr. Jounson. Most certainly be made, I think. Miss Wirson. All right. I think, in considering this bill Mr. Jounson. Before you leave ‘that matter. The stenographer will print in the hearing the amended bill as it has just been read by Miss. Wilson. Miss Wiuson. Thank you. I believe in considering this bill we ought to keep in mind the whole country and the general purpose of the community-center movement, because this bill will most certainly be used, to a certain extent, as a model by State legislators; and so, in a way, you are really acting for a great movement and for the whole country if you report out this bill and Congress passes it. As you know, the general object of the social-center movement, or the community forum, as itis called now, is to bring about organization of the citizenship of this whole country in deliberative bodies, whose purpose shall be the promotion of the general welfare through com- mon counsel and common action. We believe that the only way to do this is after the fashion of the old town meetings. Of course our cities and our towns are now too large for each to constitute a town meeting, so we suggest that we divide them into groups and that we organize for discussion and cooperation within certain limits. And we suggest the organization within the limits within which we are already organized, except in the District of Columbia, for the pur- pose of voting; that is, within the limits of the voting precmets; and of course in other parts of the country the school districts and the voting precincts are almost identical. And it is suggested that the school buildings be the town hall, be the capitol of the little - COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 7 democracies which we are planning, and that the school building be the voting place and the council chamber of the citizens of those little democracies. Of course that will result in other parts of the country in the school districts and voting precincts becoming iden- tical and the organization for voting being the same as the organiza- tion for discussion and cooperation. In the District we have no franchise, and therefore have no re- sponsibility for discussion before voting which the citizens in the other parts of the country have; but we can perform the major part of the town meeting, the major duty, and that is the development of sound public opinion through public discussion. And, moreover, _ we have the same solemn responsibility for the young people of the District that the people in the other parts of the country have to their community, and we have our town halls waiting for us to use. But we have not the right by law to use them at the times we wish and for the purpose we see fit, so that we ask the Congress to secure us the right (I mean the majority of us) to decide when we shall use our town halls. We have no definition of schcol districts in the District of Colum- bia, and we have no definition of voting precincts, naturally, since we do not vote. So we suggest that the board of education define the territories within which persons must reside to belong to this town meeting. a FY . Mr. Ragsparte. Right there, will you pardon me a question ? Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Ragspatz. I understand by this bill that the area to be set, out by the board is to be purely geographical. : Miss Witson. Purely gecgraphical. Mr. Racspate. And no other conditions obtain as to the question of the persons who attend it? Miss Wirson. No other limitation to membership, you mean? Mr. Racspare. Then, how would you do in handling the question of race, or a proposition of that character, when in one territory nearest to what you term the “town hall,” to the schoolroom, there would be two races? Miss Wirson. I believe that will settle itself. Mr. Raaspate. I know, but these are matters that we must deter- mine before we act, if you will pardon me. Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Inoyp. Is that not settled in the District by reason of the fact that we have separate schools? We have buildings for the colored people and we have buildings for the white people? Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Lioyp. If you authorized a colored school building to be used, it would be for the colored people of that locality? Miss Wrison. Yes. - Mr. Lroyp. While if a white school building be authorized, it would be for the white people in that lccality ? Miss Wurson. It would naturally be so, but, of course, this gen- tleman is right that there is nothing in this law. Mr. Racspatr. That is what I want to get your idea about. It seems to me it ought to be perfected and restricted, not only geo- graphically, but on the race lines. There is a subdivision here and. the race line is drawn in Washington in the attendance at schools, 8 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN .THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. and it seems to me the same condition ought to obtain in these forums, in the use of the school buildings, as obtain in the school attendance; otherwise you would have mixed audiences in each one of the forum buildings, it seems to me. Miss Wizson. And you think that ought to be regulated by law? — Mr. Ragspare. Otherwise I do not see how you can regulate it. Miss Wirson. I believe it would be regulated in the way Mr. Lloyd suggested, but, of course, that is not a foregone conclusion. Mr. Epwarp J. Warp. May I simply put-in this-statement, Mr. Chairman, that when that matter was first brought up the question as to whether it would be necessary to include any statements in the law was put up both to the president of the board of educa- tion and to the District Commissioners, the two bodies which were considered for administration. They agreed that the matter would be properly cared for by the designation of certain buildings for community forums for white people and certain other buildings as community forums for colored people, and that it would not be necessary to include that in the law. Mr. Racspate. Pardon me for a moment. In section 4 you state distinctly that the by-laws and regulations, as adopted, shall show that the primary object of the association is the public education of the community through the open presentation and free discussion of public questions, “ and that nothing contained in the by-laws and regulations shall limit the attendance or membership of the per- sons at the meetings of the association except as provided in section 2 of this act.” And in section 2 of this act you specifically make it geographical. Mr. Warp. The geographical designation that we use is the desig- nation of the white community. Mr. Racspaue. But you do not say that. Mr. Warp. But that is what both of the administrative boards, through their chairman, have said would be their policy. Mr. Racsparr. But that is not what your law says. | Mr. Warp. But I am simply stating that these two chairmen, speaking for the responsible boards of administration, said it would be handled in that way. Mr. Focur. Inasmuch as you have given this subject great con- sideration, and, as it is entirely new to most of the committee—cer- tainly to myself—may I ask you to state definitely to the committee if it is your conclusion that a color line should be drawn in this law? Mr. Warp. It does not seem to be necessary in view of the fact that there are two separate systems of schools. The fact is that in the uses so far made of the schoolhouses by adults, there has been no confusion on the color line, and there has been no attempt by the colored people to come into the white buildings. So that my judgment would be, as Miss Wilson has suggested, that the maMger would take care of itself. Mr. Focur. I beg your pardon, but this is not a school queeean. this is a forum for the discussion of questions aside from school questions. I am trying to get an answer from you as to whether you think the colored people should be allowed in there or not? Mr. Warp. No; I do not think they should be allowed in there. Mr. Focut. In the United States anywhere ? Mr. Warp. I think not in the United States anywhere. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 9 __Mr. Focur. Anywhere; in any forum here or anywhere in the United States. | _ Mr. Warp. In New York State and in the State of Wisconsin, with which I am familiar, both the colored and the white people use the same building as colored and white children use the same school buildings. But where that is not the case, where the children are separated, the adults would be separated. Mr. Focur. I am afraid you have not answered my question. Mr. Marrs. If we are making, as has been suggested, a model law here for the District, is it or not your opinion that we should make any distinction of that kind? Mr. Warp. Not in the law if it can be avoided. If necessary, yes. If it will take care of itself without that, I would say it would be better not to include it in the law. Pardon my coming in. Miss Wiuson. I am glad you did. Another suggestion against the limitation has been this: People have asked “ Why limit the attendance in these forums; why not throw each forum open to the public?” Anybody who makes that argument Mr. Jonnson. By “ public” you mean the entire District? Miss Wirson. The entire District of Columbia. Anybody who argues that way does not see the side of thorough organization for responsible action, but sees just rather a haphazard arrangement for audiences and speeches in the school buildings. Of course, where that is so, a few people in a community use the forum for discussion of particular features, and they attract to the school buildings the people who are fanatics on the special subjects in which this group of people are interested. There are forums like that in New York City and other places, but it simply means a few people secure a very nice auditorium to argue their special cause and attract fanatics who have a chance to air their views on that particular subject. Do you not see that is an entirely different form of organization from this town-meeting forum, where there is a responsible member- ship and where that membership is responsible not only for orderly action, but where, I think, in a neighborhood organization, the whole people should be responsible for the orderly meeting, and they have the responsibility for the welfare of the young people in that community ? In other words, they have a definite responsibility. And, moreover, thev have a secretary who is in sympathy, who is responsible for the administration of the building, for the forum building, and they have one person who is at all times responsible for the administration of the buildings and so is able to coordinate the activities in that building and to unify and simplify the whole thing. One is just a haphazard, rather mixed-up arrangement, and the other is an organic thing, regular and responsible, an organization of responsible people assuming the responsibility for careful discussion and serious dis- cussion, and for action. And, also, they know each other. These same people will meet regularly and they will get to know each other and realiy be able to be effective, whereas the other is an audience every Sunday in a public-school building. So far so good; but it is not really constructive in its responsibility. : As I said, these first two sections provide for the territories to be outlined by the board of education. because there is no outhnimg of the school districts now. 10 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. The main provisions of the third and fourth sections of this bill are that the superintendent of schools shall help in the organization of these community forums, or that the principal of the particular school where the forum is to be organized shall help in the organiza- tion; and that after the organization has been formed and made its own by-laws, the principal of the school shall serve as secretary of the organization. We consider that is a very important provision, both from the point of view of the District of Columbia itself and the point of view of the country (I mean it would be an example to the country), because it is very important that. one person shall be responsible for the administration of the school building. It is the only way by which we can get coordination and simplification. Fur ther more, the principal is already there and naturally the central figure in the school building. He is the man who is nearest the childr en; and if we make the man who is already. nearest the children simply our agent in promoting happiness and health and broaden- ing the education of the children, then we shall have a very vital connecting link between us and the children in the man who is al- ready near them. And it seems to me it is the only way to get unifi- cation in the system of education. | We are planning a system of education for our older people i in the same way that we have a system of education for our younger people and, furthermore, planning for a vital connection between the older people and the young people in a community home or com- munity headquarters. The simplest way is to have one person re- sponsible for the building and one person who is the agent or con- necting link between us and the children, and so we suggest that the principal of the school building be always the secretary. Now, in the District of Columbia, which is benighted and in- adequate i in some respects, the school principals all have too much to do. They have teaching; they have to teach all day long, most of them; and it is really too much to ask of them unless they find they can do so, to do this extra work. So we have provided in the bill. that the principal can nominate a person to take his place and we take it for granted he or she will nominate some one who is entirely in sympathy with the education authorities, who is in sympathy with the principal himself and who will be constantly in conference with the principal so that we can get a good deal of the coordination. which we would get if the principal were there. We have left it possible for the principal to be secretary and we have established the. principle that he should be in the bill in the eyes of the country,. and we have made it possible for him to be so in the future when he will be relieved of his teaching. I have no doubt that our system of education in the District of Columbia will not stay behind the way it is and that we will make the principal the executive officer and not burden him with a specialized duty such as teaching is. Teach-. ing is a specialized duty and ought to be given to teachers, and the principal we believe ought to be the executive officer in authority over the children and the executive under us, the grown-up people. of the District of Columbia. The next section provides that the meetings of the association shall be at such times as the. organization—that i is, the neighborhood. organization—shall designate. Now, here comes a question which’ COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 11 has caused a great deal of excitement, I am afraid. It is supposed that we have asked to be introduced in the Congress of the United States a very iniquitous and shocking bill, which suggests that we have meetings on Sunday afternoons. As you see, the bill does noe say anything about Sunday afternoons. .The question before Con- gress is not whether it is a good thing to have meetings on Sunday afternoons, but whether the people of the District of Columbia shall have the right to say when they wish to meet in their school build- ings. The question is whether the people of the District of Colum- bia are to be in authority in the use of their buildings, or whether the board of education is to be in authority over the adults in the use of the school buildings. That is the simple question before Con- gress, and I think any democratic Congress (democratic with a little “d”’) must say that a majority of a community has a right to say when they shall use the school buildings; otherwise I do not see how there can be any dignified use by the people of their own buildings. I do not think it is any business of Congress or of the board of edu- cation or of anyone of us here to decide whether it is a good thing to have meetings on Sunday afternoons. I believe that is the busi- ness of the people who are going to do the meeting in a country which is free religiously and politically. So the only question for you to decide is whether the people shall designate the uses of their own school buildings and the time for such uses. That is the only question before you, and I do not think the Congress has any right to talk about the Sunday question at all. If they want to do that, they can put in a law against anything improper, lke public meet- ings, on Sunday afternoons. We consider that a public meeting on a Sunday afternoon is a good thing, but that is not here nor there. The question is shall the people decide or shall the board of educa- tion decide. The next sections provide for the use of the school buildings by the young people and children outside of school hours under the au-' thority of the community organization and the board of education— a joint responsibility. We believe that it is the solemn duty of the grown-up people of a community to see that the children and young people have a clean, sweet, wholesome place in which to find health- ful recreation; and we also believe that it is the responsibility of the grown-up people in every way possible to broaden and deepen and vitalize the education of the young people through such means as civic clubs, debating clubs, art, music, and every other means they ean conceive. In other words, I mean the adults of the community ought to have something to do with the education of the young people, and that they can do so best in a place where the young people are already receiving their education. It is this responsibility of the grown-up people for the education and happiness and health of the young people which we believe makes it absolutely imperative that Congress should give us, a ma- jority of us, the right to use our school buildings and the full liberty and authority in our school buildings outside of school — hours. We do not see how otherwise, with any self-respect or with any respect from the children, we can conduct activities for the children in the school building. It is Just exactly this way, we in- tend to make the school buildings community homes. That is the 12 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. reason we make the difference here between “community center” and “community forum.” Of course the whole thing is really one, but just for the sake of being definite in the law we use the two ex- pressions. But the whole thing i is really a community home, a com- munity headquarters for the children and the grown-up people. Suppose in a private home an outside body should designate what should go on in that home, do you think the children would have any respect for the grown-up people in the home? No; they would not, and the grown-up people would not have any self- -respect. And it is exactly that w av in the school building; the people must have com- plete authority in the school building if they are, in a dignified and worthy way, to perform their duties for the young people of the District and keep the respect of the young people of the District, Why, we believe that 1s one of the strongest reasons for giving us full liberty in the school building. | Of course the agent for us in the promotion of activities for the children will be our secretary, who will be the principal of the school building or his nominee. So you see he is really the connecting link between us and the children. And of course the board of edu- cation will also be in cooperation with us, as they are in authority over the children, too. But we must be given full authority as to the times and uses of a school building; I mean our uses of a school building. And then we must be given full authority to be there and advise and help with the activities of the children. The Jast provision of this act is the one which I am afraid will cause the most opposition. You know what the last provision is; it is for the compensation of the secretary, the lighting, heating, and janitor service in connection with the community center and com- munity forum uses of the building. Now it-seems very easy to get people to admit that recreation is a public function. I suppose that is because it is very easy to make an impression when it comes to an appeal for the children. And I think that is something very beautiful and natural about the American public. When you say it is their business to do things for the children they will say “ Yes” right away. And another. thing, I suppose, why they say.it 1s the business of the public to provide recreation is that it is simply going one step further in admitting that the education of the children is the business of the public, and that is something that has been ad- mitted for a very long time. But it seems very hard to convince the public it is its second duty to provide for the self-education of the public itself. I do not. see why the public should stop in its participation in education with the young people. Why not go on and provide for its own education and for its own self- government? It has been suggested that the community organizations would feel more self-respect if they had to pay for the use of the build- ing; if they had to pay dues and had to pay their own secretary. Do you feel any lack of self-respect or does Congress feel any lack © of self-respect because all the lighting and heating and secretarial service is supplied them out of the peoples’ money? No; they do not feel any lack of self-respect, because they are performing a re- sponsible public service. Now I contend that the citizenship of the United States is performing a responsible public service when it COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 13 organizes with the declared purpose of thoughtfully discussing pub- lic questions and all acting together for the public welfare; and they are not performing that public service which in a democracy they should perform until they do that. In the older days of Athens (I just found this out, although I presume you all know it) they used to pay the citizens when they came to the market place to take part in the public discussions, so much importance did they attach to public spirit as expressed in the participation in public meetings. We are not advocating that the citizens be paid; but we are main- taining that the meetings of the citizenship are as worthy of public support as the meetings of their representatives, and that the citi- zens should have all the machinery that their representatives have and that they should be paid for in the same worthy, dignified, and permanent way as the expenses for the meetings of their representa- tives are paid. In no other way can these organizations really be public organizations. If they are paid for in any other way they are private and they are not worthy to be communities, to be parts in a system of self-government. And what. we are really trying to set up through the processes of this movement is the machinery of democracy, a foundation to democracy and a channel for it. And we believe that these organizations are really going to be units in self-government, and that they are absolutely necessary to any real self-government in our country. _ - And so I do not see how anybody who really stands for democ- racy can contend that the organization of the citizenship should be done on a private basis any more than they can contend that the organization of the representatives of the citizenship should be - maintained on a private basis; that is, out of private funds. ¥ I am not here to argue for democracy; that is too big an order. But if you believe in democracy I think that you must stand by the principle that the citizens should organize for discussion and coop- eration and that their organization for that purpose is as important and worthy and dignified as the organization of their representa- tives for the same purpose. [ Applause. | | | ~ May I make one other suggestion which I forgot. Miss Fairley, Miss Norton, and Mr. Davis are here, and they want very much to say something for the bill; and then I wanted to ask if I might be permitted to say something later on after the opposition has spoken. Mr. Jounson. Yes. Miss Witson. Thank you. | ~ Mr. Jonnson. Do you want to direct your side of it, or want somebody else to direct it? | | -Miss Wiison. I think Mr. Ward could direct it. Mr. Warp. I would be very glad to help. Miss Wilson is chair- man of the committee. Mr. Jounson. Then, Miss Wilson, we will accept you as the rep- resentative of those who are in favor of this bill, and you can select who shall be heard.” You and Mr. Ward may direct your side as you please. ; ah Miss Wurson. I suggest that Miss Fairley, principal of the Grover Cleveland School, who really called the first meeting of citizens to meet in a school building, be heard at this time, ‘ 14 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, STATEMENT OF MISS FRANCES S. FAIRLEY, PRINCIPAL OF Tae GROVER CLEVELAND SCHOOL. Miss Fairtry. Since we recognize no higher authority than the will of the organized people I am present at this hearing in response to a request and in compliance with a demand of the people of the Grover Cleveland community to advocate the passage of this Hollis-Johnson bill, and to tell you something of the work of the Grover Cleveland School, which organized the first social center and the first community forum in the District of Columbia. I have been a principal of the schools in that neighborhood for 13 years; 8 years of Phelps, two squares away from the Grover Cleve- Jand, and for the last 5 years, since 1911, at the Grover Cleveland. At the Phelps School I found very crowded conditions in the neigh- borhood, and a dingy, miserable building. In 1911 I went to the Grover Cleveland, a fine, beautiful school building, equipped with an assembly hall, and sanitary in every way. I found the people in the neighborhood whom I had been teaching for the past eight years largely made up of foreigners. Looking over the records of the school since the month of February, this year, I find that in my own building at the present time 63 per cent are foreign people. Mr. Lioyp. What do you mean by “foreign people”; you mean people whose parents were born elsewhere ? Miss Farruey. I mean children whose parents were born in for- eign lands. Some of the children and parents, by taking the names from the register, have actual continental European names, largely Russians and Italians. Mr. Focur. May I ask you right there in what occupations are their parents engaged ? Miss Farrtey. A great many of the Jewish people keep ciouedas a great many of the Italians are barbers and laborers and fruit vendors. We have a number of Greeks, also. The community is one that has seen better days. There are fine old houses there that are occupied, some few, by the old inhabitants; but the negro population has spread. through that community to such an extent that it now largely out- numbers the white population. There are 63 per cent of foreign people. We are expected to Americanize them. If those people go into any other community in the United States than the District of Columbia, they are immedi- ately surrounded with government. They have voting in their dis- tricts; they are looked upon as prospective voters and they are edu- cated in American institutions. They come to the District of Colum- bia and the school is the only institution in which they can learn any- thing of government. The teacher and the principal of the school are the first American friends the children have, the first friends of the family. Now, working in that community and with those people, I felt that the school was a vital thing; that the more use that could be made of the school building the better it would be for those people. We must Americanize them and we are doing it. If I may tell of an instance, I should like to do so. Little Annie, a Russian girl, born in Russia, in my school last year, the eighth ‘grade, used to bring her little brother, 3 years old, to the playground. She had to care for this COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT’ OF COLUMBIA, 15 child after school hours every day. One day Annie brought the little brother to me to show me what he could do. “ Tell Miss Fairley your name; tell Miss Fairley where you live.” The child lisped a reply.. The third question gave me joy. It was, “ What flag do you live under,” and the little child lisped out, “‘ The red, white, and blue.” Now, when you realize that is where they are really being trained, through the school, you know that is the highest work of the school, to make them good American citizens: When I went to this Grover Cleveland School, my whole purpose was to make that building tell for all it was worth in the community. We had an assembly hall. The first winter of 1912, we began our social-center work. We had classes for school story clubs, volunteer workers. We had some paid workers. We had some industrial teachers who taught the children after school in industry. Miss Cornelia Aldis, who is well known for her philanthropic work in the city, gave the money that carried on the work for-the first winter. Then the following year Mr. Thurston had lghts put in our building. At that time came Miss Norton, a teacher in the first grade in 1913, who has been a genius of inspira- tion and help to me. The work had been going on for a year when she came. With her inspiration, we added more work, much dramatic work; and when the summer came and we felt the building had meant so much to the children during the winter, we wanted to carry the work through the summer. There was no money with which it could be dorie, and Miss Norton, Miss Bell, and another agreed, and I went to work to raise money to pay the janitor and the teacher in charge for the summer work. We did it. We begged and borrowed. The people in the neighborhood helped us. We carried on dressmaking, carpenter work; shower baths were installed, which meant a great deal to the crowded children in the community, and we carried the work on through that first summer, having every Friday night enter- tainments for all the people in the neighborhood. The children simply loved the school and you could not get them away. ‘The following winter we carried the work on still further, and it has gone on this way until this last January. All that time we had had civic clubs for the boys; we had had girls’ clubs; we had lec- tures; we had industrial training, dramatie work, and all kinds of activities. that were interesting and developed the health of the people and the children in that neighborhood. But we felt all along that we were lacking in not getting the older people, the grown-up people, organized. So that in January of this year when Miss Nor- ton and I attended a meeting of the Wilson Normal School, at which Mr. Thurston, the superintendent of schools, and Mr. Ward were the speakers, and I met Mr. Ward for the first time after his arrival in the city, I asked him if he would come to the school and help us organize the grown-up people into a community assembly. Call it a citizens’ association, call it what you would, it was to get the older people into touch with the work of the school and to get them together, so that they might know each other better and we might know them better. ie | Mr. Lioyp. Miss Fairley, these hearings, you know, are presented | to the Members of Congress who are very busy men, and if you can. shorten your statement I would be very much pleased. What we want to get at is the community forum: proposition :and the necessity 16 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. for its establishment. Your recitation is exceedingly interesting, but much of it thus far has not been on the direct necessity for the forum. Mr. Focnur. I want to ask about any conflict there might be with your present school government. In speaking of democracy, if you are going to have pure democracy then you are not going to have any school board elected by the people, as I understand, but are going to have a town meeting, and the community will take care of it through a secretary, and arrange for the taxes and government and every- thing; and J would like to have you explain the responsibility and the authority of this gentleman you are going to appoint here. If he was to be in absolute control, it seems to me you would not need to raise the race question or any other question, as he would have abso- jute, autocratic power as to who shall be admitted or not into these meetings. It says, in line 25, page 4, and line 1, page 5, that he is to have the discretion. I would like to have you explain that as you go along, because it seems to me it is very important. It is in the dis- cretion of the executive secretary, and he becomes a czar of this whole proposition instead of having a pure democracy. Miss Fairtey. As I understand (I may not have the proper concep tion), the schools are going along just as under the board of educa- tion, superintendent, and all that. The community forum is. organ- ized from the people of the neighborhood, who are and must: be in that neighborhood or they can “not participate in meetings of the board; and the secretary, through them, is to carry on this work. Mr. Focur. It really has no relationship to the school govern- ment ? Miss Farrtey. No. Mr. Focur. All this veribage simply means to use the school houses for whatever purpose you desire to use them ? Miss Farruey. It simply means to use the school building; and I believe the more the school building is used for the benefit of the peo- ple, the better it is. Miss Wirson. May I just speak to that point one minute. The secretary will be the agent of the grown-up people in carrying out their wishes in respect “to the recreation of the young people. The question I think you were speaking to—I did not hear everything you said—was simply whether the older people should be there or not. It is just the same as if in a private home the older people said, “ Now, you can have the parlor on Friday night, but you must have a chaperon there. If your chaperon and you want us there, we will be there; if not, we will be in the back parlor or somewhere else.”. In the initiation of these activities in the parlor, the grown-up peo- ple are responsible; it is simply a question of whether they will be there. Mr, Focur. Of course there are activities around the schools where he would probably be convenient; but in this case it strikes me the democracy feature of it is taken away when you put it in the control here of a single individual. Miss Wirson. The single individual, as I understand the bill, is the agent of the other people; and it is simply a question of whether. they are to be there at these meetings or not. : Mr. Focut. That is at his discretion ? COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, — 17 _ Miss Wirson. That is at his discretion, and that is a minor ques- tion as to whether all the parents are to be there or not. | Mr. Focut. “ Shall be open and available at his discretion.” Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Focur. The school will be open. _ Miss Wirson. Because you see in the beginning the grown-up peo- ple have designated what night the school shall be for the children, «nd the question of whether it shall be for them too is at the discre- t10n of their agent and the children’s master. It is a minor question, I believe, as to whether they are to be there or not. _ Mr. Warp. Mr. Chairman, may I make the point that the discre- tion of the secretary does not apply to the adult meetings in the com- munity forum.: It applies to the young people’s meetings in the activities included in the community center. It dces not apply to the adult assembly. , _ Mr. Raespare. May I ask you just one question: You say you are living there now in a community of mixed races? Miss Farrier. Yes. Mr. Ragspate. Do you think it is wise to enact a law in which no discretion whatever shall be vested in the school commissioners, and that upon application of any 20 people, adult persons, without regard to their character, without regard to their race, without regard to any consideration other than the fact that they live within half a mile of this building and that they are adults, that they should have the power to form this forum and take over the school building and run it in disregard of the school commissioners of that particular locality ? Miss Farritey. As I understand it, the whole forum is in the dis- cretion of the government of the District—the school authorities and the commissioners. And the purpose of the forum meeting is for an orderly—lI think it uses that word—an orderly meeting. Mr. Racspaus. Yes; but does not this divest the commissioners of authority and invest it in the forum officers? Miss Farrtrey. Not as I understand it, except in the regulation of their local affairs. Mr. Lioyp. They direct their own local affairs. After the organ- ization is effected, then their own officers conduct their own affairs, ’ and they can have any kind of exercises or any kind of lectures or anything else which the local officers think proper to designate. In other words, the schoo] board would not designate the officers, as I understand it, or designate what should be done in the forum after its organization. The school board has nothing to do with it except to make the organization of the territory within which the organiza- tion may be effected. After you have perfected your organization, then you conduct your own affairs, and the school board would only have a general supervision ? Miss Farruey. As I understand it, if anything is wrong—if the meetings were not orderly they could be stopped. Mr. Luoyp. You think that the school board would have that authority ? | | Miss Farrtey. I think that the commissioners would have that authority; or, as it is now vested, the school board would have the authority. 38523—16——2 18 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, me Witson. You think the school board would have what author- it | Miss Farritry. Would have authority to regulate it if the building should be misused. Miss Witson. No; the school board would have no authority in connection with the adult use of the school buildings. That is in the hands of the neighborhood organization, which organization is open to every single person within the territory designated by the board of education. The 20 people were simply a means of starting the organization, but there is no danger of their running the organiza- tion, because after they start the machinery for its being formed every single person in the district can belong to the organization. And that has been tried out elsewhere; for instance, in Wisconsin 20 or more people in a certain neighborhood can start the organization. Mr. Ragcspauz. Miss Wilson, the point I make is this: The only restriction upon 20 people is that they must reside within a radius of one half a mile. Miss Wison. That is just to insure their being in the territory. _ Mr. Racspare. I know; but. that is the only restriction ii them, other than that they shéuld be adults. | Miss Witson. Why should there be any other rextniegon’ Mr. Racspats. For instance, I think there ought to be race re- strictions. If 20 negroes lived within half a mile of a white school, this law is mandatory and 20 negroes could form a society and then under this law they have the absolute right to go in there and have their forum meetings in the white school. The second point is these 20 people might be people who would be absolutely undesirable. Miss Wirson. May I answer that? Mr. Racspaue. Certainly. - Miss Winson. The whole spirit of the law is that all of the mem- bers, all of the citizens of a neighborhood, within a given radius, shall have a right to go to the town hall, just as in ‘the old New England towns, “all the citizens had the right to go to the town Ses Mr. Racspate. Will you pardon me right there ? Miss Wirson. Yes. ae Mr. Ragspate. Your assembly there under the town officials was not as a matter of right, but as a matter of privilege, and the town officials had the right to disperse that meeting at any time they be- liev ed it to be in the best interests of the community. You are tak- ing this authority from the duly organized school officials, divesting them of that authority, and vesting this right in another organiza- tion aside from the educational organization, and giving them the ee to go there as a matter of right and not as a matter of priv- ilege Miss Wixson. We believe in any democracy; it is a matter of right that the citizenship should use the buildings which they have paid for. We believe it 1s necessary in a democracy that the citizenship should have headquarters. Personally, I believe almost every demo- crat (with a little “d”) would believe that a majority of the citizens in a neighborhood are as trustworthy to decide what shall be done in that building as any small group of people like the board of education. Mr. Racspate. oaks regard to race, # CORDE; or anything? COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 19 _ Miss Wirson. Then we go back to the original question which the gentleman over here brought up, that is, whether or not in the law we should make a distinction which is already made in the District on the matter of the color line. Now, that is an open question; that is for you to decide. I think that question would decide itself by the designation of one building for the colored sommunity forum and another for the white community forum. I mean the schools where the colored children go would naturally be the forum for the colored people. But, if you believe that the other thing will happen and if you are afraid of it, and you believe it ought to be safe- guarded in the law, then let Congress amend the law. Personally, I do not think that ought to be put in the law: I think it onght to take care of itself, because I do not think any law ought to make a color distinction. I think the community ought to decide for itself and the community can really decide for itself. Mr. Racspave. You do not think the law ought to make a color distinction ? Miss Witson. I personally do not think any law ought to make the distinction of color. I think the community can and will settle that point. [Applause. ] ) _ Mr. Marrs. May I ask you a question. You know what authority or what right the board of education has to open the school build- ings to the community now for the purpose of discussion or holding public meetings, as it sees fit ? Miss Witson. Under the act that was passed last year opening the school buildings for social centers, the board of education has the right to open the buildings at their discretion for social-center pur- poses. Mr. Mapes. Do you consider it necessary to supplement that law with a law similar to this in order to give the people the right to go to the school buildings and discuss public questions—questions in which they are interested ? Miss Witson. | think this bill is broader and brings about the social-center idea more quickly. Mr. Mares. Has there been any difficulty in the District to get the school buildings | Miss Witson. I do not know. Mr. Marpss (continuing). For such use as they see fit? Miss Witson. I do not know. Mr. Vinson. When you were interrupted a few moments ago you were making an observation in regard to work of this or a similar character carried on in your particular school. I would like to have you finish that line of thought, if you please. _ Miss Farriey. The line of thought of the work? Mr. Vinson. Of what you were doing in your own neighborhood. Miss Farrury. I think I had reached the point that we decided we must organize the adults of the neighborhood. At a meeting at the Normal School, at which Mr. Thurston, superintendent of the schools, and Mr. Ward were present, in January, I asked Mr. Ward to come to the Grover Cleveland School and help us organize the. men of the neighborhood. We sent out a call through the pupils of the school to their parents, asking the men to be present at a man’s meeting. The first meeting was for men only. Mr. Ward came and a temporary organization was made and the next meeting was called 20 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. for the following Sunday. At that meeting I said I felt that the board of education would not grant us the use of the building on Sunday. However, it was a question that had to be determined sooner or later and it was decided to ask the board of education for the use of the building. That permission was granted. Miss Witson. May a suggest, Miss Fairley, that the whole history of this movement here in the District 1s in the brief of the commit- tee and we are going to file that with Mr. Lloyd as chairman. It is simply a suggestion which I make with a view to conserving time. We think they will read it. Mr. Vinson. Did they grant you the use of the building on Sun; day ? Miss Farruey. They granted us the use of the building for two Sundays. Then the question was taken up by the superintendent of schools. He wrote, I think, to find out what was being done in other cities. Then permission was refused, and after that the meetings were held in other places. Mr. Vinson. Do you not think Sunday afternoon is a good time to have a meeting of this character—is a well appropriation of an ideal day ? ; Miss Farritry. I was very strictly bred and at first I felt against the Sunday meeting. After I had attended two of them and found that the people in the neighborhood needed just the sort of meetings they were having I felt absolutely convinced that they were right, and there was no further doubt in my mind. Mr. Vinson. Did the adult members of families who had children in the school attend? Miss Farrtey. They attended. Mr. Vrnson. What per cent would you say? Miss Farrtry. I could not tell you that; but a large number of them came to the first two meetings, and since then they have gone away down to the Museum, sehich costs car fare and all that, and down to the Public Libr ary to attend meetings. So that I know if we had the meetings in a building convenient to their homes there would be a large attendance. | Mr. Batury. “May IT ask you a question: There is some opposition to this proposition ? Miss Farritry. There is? Mr. Battery. I ask you if there is? Miss Farrury. I have in my hands a petition signed by over 200 people Mr. Bartry. I just want to know, if you please, madam, if you- will pardon the interruption, whether there is opposition. Miss Fairuey. So far as our neighborhood is concerned, I have heard of only two persons who opposed Sunday meetings. | Mr. Batrey. What was the objection? | Miss Fatriny. The objection was it was a desecration of the Sabbath. Mr. Batty. Have you heard any other objection except it is a desecration of the Sabbath ? Miss I’arruey. That is the only objection I have heard. Mr. Luoyp. What kind of exercises did you have on Sunday? _ Miss Farriry. At the first meeting we had for our principal speaker Representative Page, Commissioner Newman, Mr. Blair, COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 21. president of the board of education, and Mr. Edwards, the president of one of the citizens’ associations of the District. Mr. Luioyp. You did not have any trouble if you had such men as that? Miss Farruey. No. At the second meeting we had Commissioner _ Brownlow and Maj. Pullman. At the next meeting we had Repre- sentative Fess and last Sunday Representative Nolan. And the peo- ple in the neighborhood feel that they are being educated. Mr. Focut. Are they mostly English and philosophical discourses? Miss Farruey. They were discourses on the affairs of the country. Mr. Focur. The tariff, the literary test, and all that? Mr. Vinson. I do not presume Mr. Fess would engage in a tariff discussion. Mr. Focur. I would like to know from Miss Wilson (you discuss democracy with a little “d”), just so we can understand: You feel we should consider now that this is possibly the inception of the final accomplishment of your idea, which seems to be a pure democracy, with no representative government and no school board ? Miss Witson. No. I do not believe personally (although I think _ possibly some people who are interested in this movement would disagree with me), fora long time, at any rate, that we can dispense with representatives; but I do think that our representatives should know what we think and that they would have sound public opinion to go by, and that they would be directly responsible and have re- sponsibility to those that they represent. | Mr. Focut. I was wondering, after you reached some conclusion, what agency you would employ to make it effective if you did not have a school board—unless you abolished everything and had a pure democracy. Miss Wiuson. If you would like to know about my theories of government, I believe that for the city (if you do not want me to go any further than the city) there ought to be a very small commission that is at the same time the board of education, board of estimate, and all the boards in one; and that that commission should be elected by the people and the people should be organized in the way in which I have described to constantly discuss the questions which their commissioners, as representing them, are to decide and shall definitely express themselves so that the commissioners will have -gome way to know what the people want. Mr. Ragspate. In other words, then, you would concentrate all of the powers of the city in a very small governing board? Miss Witson. Yes; but that board shall be elected by the people and be directly responsible to them. ~ Mr. Vryson. And those forums you are providing for will guide the commissioners constantly and inform them of the people’s opin- ion, and enable them to better provide for the people, because they would be better acquainted with the people’s views? Miss Wirson. Yes; and not only that, but these centers should be the agencies through which the people would work; the channels for | distributing and agents in all kinds of cooperation. Mr. Bartry. You have studied this question from other angles than from the city of Washington, have you not? Miss Wuson. Yes. : | oS. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Battey. Have you found a difference in other communities, a different understanding, a better understanding, of civic affairs than you find here? Miss Witson. Why, no; I do not think so. Mr. Barry. Here is what I was trying to get at, if you will par- don me: In other communities they have had the advantage of this friction of ideas and opinions that we are expecting to gain here through this forum? Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Bairry. We have not had that here? Miss Witson. No. Mr. Batzry.. We have no vote here? Miss Witson. No. Mr. Bartey. They do not vote out in the country ? Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Bamry. They exchange opinions through the ballot box? _ Miss Witson. Yes. : Mr. Batiey. I was wondering whether you had observed the con- ditions on the outside were better than what they are inside? Miss Witson. I do not quite get your question. You mean there has been friction and opposition outside ? Mr. Battery. No; I do not mean that. I mean do you find a better understanding of public questions ¢ Miss Witson. Where there has been public discussion ? Mr. Bartery. Yes. Miss Witson. Undoubtedly. Mr. Battery. Then, what we are trying to get here is a better development of public opinion ? Miss Witson. Absolutely; and cooperation of the public among. themselves. Mr. Ragspate. I just want to get your idea, if you will pardon one further question: Your idea is that the smaller this governing. body and the fewer officials you have, the greater authority you give this governing body? Miss Winson. The greater the responsibility. Mr. Racspaz. All right; there can be no responsibility without authority and power. Miss Witson. That is just a question of terms. Mr. Ragspate. It is just a question of terms? Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Racsparx. That is what I thought. That being the case, you a es smaller this governing body is the better the government will be? Miss Wirson. I think so, for the reason that it is impossible for the citizenship to know what a whole lot of people in an intricate position, involving intricate machinery, are doing, whereas when they have a few people whom they hold responsible they can see what is going on—they can see in the way of understanding things. Mr. Racspatz. The smaller this governing body the further re- moved it 1s from the people who issue the authority, is it not? Miss Witson. Why is that? Mr. Racspae. Because the more narrow and restricted you put the control of the people—into the fewer hands that you put it—cer- COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 22 tainly you will remove them that much farther from them than where it is distributed among a great many of their servants. Miss Wirson. I do not think so at all, because where it is dis- tributed among a great many of their servants it makes it impossible for them to keep track; it makes it possible for their servants to hide behind all kinds of complications. Mr. Racsparn. So that the logical deduction would be that the best form of government would be to have it all centralized in one man? Miss Wirson. No; because I think that no one person can possibly decide what is wisest by himself. I am a great believer in common counsel; so I think if you get a group of persons together who have . departments under them and experts under them then you can get the wisest form of government. Mr. Racspate. Why do you select the number “three” as being exactly the right number? Miss Wuson. Did I say three? Mr. Racspatx. I so understood. _ Miss Wirson. I do not think so. . Mr. Racspate. About. what number, then, would you say? Miss Witson. I do not know, because I am not an expert; but I feel that a small group is a group which it is possible for the people to hold responsible, because they can watch a few and they can not watch and know about, even in the very beginning when they vote— I do not see how they can know abcut 10 or 20 or 80 candidates. Mr. Marzs. I would just like to get your idea of the necessity for this law, since I asked Miss Farley something of the same question. I. have been handed a copy of the act that was passed last year, which seems to give the board of education authority to open the school buildings for supplementary educational purposes, civic meetings for the primary discussion of public questions, social cen- ters, centers of recreation, and playgrounds. | ~ Miss Witson. That simply brings up the issue. The issue is this: Shall the majority of the people of the District of Columbia have the right to designate the use of the school buildings, or shall the school board? That bill makes it possible for the people to use the school buildings if the school board so desires and at times that the school board so desires. Now, I believe that here and all over this country a majority of the citizens ought to have the right to use the buildings which they pay for—the school buildings—as their head- quarters. I think that is really a principle of democracy. Mr. Mapes. Is there any difficulty, in all the schools in all com- munities, of getting the privilege which Miss Fairley got for hers? Miss Wiuson. Is there any difficulty—what ? Mr. Mapes. In getting the use of the schools from the board of education, as this Grover Cleveland School has done? Miss Wutson. There is a possibility of it, and it has already hap- pened. There is a possibility of it, and it has happened here and happened all over this country, that the boards of education have thought themselves to be in authority over the school buildings— over the adult use of the school buildings. | 7 Mr. Marzs. I do not know that you get my question. Has there been any practical difficulty here in this community Miss Witson. Yes. | _ Mr. Maprs. Since this law was passed in getting a school? 24 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Miss Witson. Yes. The practical difficulty has been shown in that the board of education refused the Grover Cleveland neighborhood the right to use the school building on Sunday afternoons. Mr. Marss. Your idea is that the board of education ought not to have any control over the : Miss Wiison. Over the adult use of the school buildings. I think that is certainly a principle of the bill, and I think it is a valid prin- ciple of democracy, that a majority of the citizenship should have a right to use their school buildings outside of school hours. Mr. Focnr. As a popular expression, could that not be obtained 4 You speak of those boards later on in local communities throughout the States? Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Focur. If your school boards-—say in Pennsylvania—do you think that your school directors would not be responsible to the popular sentiment that existed, or if your forum created that sentiment, and would not open the schagl ? - Miss Wirson. It is a question of whether they would or not, and it is a question that has been presented in a great many cases. In Wisconsin, for instance, after the bill was passed which gave the people the right to use the school buildings several school boards refused them the right and they had to be threatened with manda- mus—after the law was passed. Mr. Racspaus. The only instance in this district is where you wished to use the building on.a Sunday and the school board re- fused permission for its use on Sunday. At all other times you have been permitted to use it? 3 Miss Witson. That is the first time. The first time that a com- munity forum was called the very first question that came up was when they should meet, and that question was decided by the school -board and not by the people. Now, that is simply typical of what may come up and what will come up. And, no matter whether you think that it 1s possible or may come up again or not, the principle should be established, to my mind, that a majority ‘of the people should decide. Mr. Ragspats. But as it is now the only time that it has been re- fused to you is for use on a Sunday afternoon ? Miss Wiison. The only time that the question ever came up, ana | the first time, as between the people and the board of education, the board of education did not carry out the wishes of the people. Mr. Racspautr. And that particular time was as to the use of the school building on Sunday? Miss Witson. Yes. Mr. Racspatr. And for no other time? Miss Wirson. Yes. Mr. Marss. I am not altogether clear on one statement that you. und this lady have made. I have confused, evidently, two differ- ent school buildings, because this lady has stated the meetings she had were in what I think was the Grover Cleveland School Miss Wirson. Yes. Mr. Mares. And if I recollect correctly the meeting that was addressed by Mr. Nolan was last Sunday. Miss Farrtey. That was because the Grover Cleveland School Building was refused. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 25 Mr. Mapes. It was not in the Grover Cleveland School Building this meeting was held? Miss Fatrtxy. No. _Miss Wirson. That is because the school board had finally de- cided this organization could not meet in the Grover Cleveland School Building. Mr. Maprs. In what building was this? Miss Farrtey. In the Public Library. The Grover Cleveland community first met at the Museum, and since then at the Public Library. Mr. Mapes. They based their refusal entirely upon the ground that these meetings were being held on Sunday? Miss Winson. Yes; and I do not believe that is a question for them to asl or for you or for Congress, but for the majority of the people. Mr. Marrs. That is rather a high ground to take—pardon me. Miss Wixson. It is a very democratic ground. Mr. Focur. Was the refusal to grant the use of the schoolhouses predicated on the fact that these Congressmen were coming there to discuss political questions? Would they have refused if they had thought you were coming there to discuss school questions or ques- tions pertaining to the education of youth or adults? Miss Witson. I do not know; I do not know the mind of the board of education. Mr. Focur. I am free to say for my part I do nct know that I my- self would want to have political speeches made on Sunday after- noons in public schoolhouses. The lady said the speeches she heard were most deeply discussions of political questions. Miss Fairtey. I said affairs of the country. Mr. Focur. And this bill is to provide an opportunity to discuss questions pertaining to the education of youth? Miss Wirson. It is not to provide for the discussion of any ques- tions at all except what the people of the neighborhood wish discused. Mr. Focur. Exactly; but the fact is that inasmuch as you have had one refusal evidently on the ground of the political feature, you still contend you should get free use of these schoolhouses in this country (that is the entire question) for the discussion of questions of the forum ? . _ Miss Wirson. You are contending against the facts, because the use of the school buildings has been refused by boards of education many times because they are very much afraid of political discus- sions; and sometimes the reason they are afraid (I do not mean this school board here, because other than it was a Sunday afternoon dis- cussion, they did not give any reason that I know of and I under- stand that is the reason) in other parts of the country to use the school building has been because the boards cf education presumably were in politics (I mean politics in the sense of playing the game for their personal interests), and they were afraid of public dis- cussion. And lots of people are afraid of public discussion; and that is all the more reason why we should have it. [Applause. | . -Mr. Focur. You think it ought to have this discussion on a Sun- day afternoon—political discussion ? Miss Wuzson. Personally I think a discussion of public questions on a Sunday afternoon is worthy of the Sabbath or any other day 2°26 COMMUNITY FORUMS. IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, — [applause], because people are serving the good ; they are trying to find out what is for the welfare of the community. And personally, for myself, I would feel as if I were doing a self-sacrificing thing instead of going driving. [| Applause. | Mr. Focut. Inasmuch as you have no politics 1 in this city, I do not see how it relates to this case. Miss Witson. We suppose that Congress cares a little abot hat the citizens of the District of Columbia think. Whether they do or not, we suppose that they care and that they would lke to find out in a most valid way what the people think. And also, as shown in this bill, we believe the people of the District of Columbia have a very definite responsibility to the young people, and they can carry it out in this way and can not be free to carry it out in any other way. Miss Fatritry. I would like to leave this petition with the com- mittee. . (The petition offered by Miss Fairley was filed with the com- mittee. ) _ Miss Winson. Mr. Lloyd, Mrs. La Follette, from Wisconsin, is here. As you know, the movement was started in Rochester and came up against the machine there, and it was very clearly demon- strated that if the thing was to go ahead freely the people must be guaranteed the use of “the buidings. So Wisconsin passed a law which guaranteed the majority of the neighborhood should have the right to use the school buildings, and I would like you to hear Mrs. La Follette on this subject. | Applause. ] Mr. Lioyp. Miss Wilson, the committee is anxious to go to the. House, and would prefer to adjourn until 1.30 or 2. (After informal penta sins the committee took a recess until 1.30 o’clock p. m.) | ! AFTER RECESS. The committee met, pursuant to the taking of the recess, at 2 o'clock p. m. Mr. Lioyp. Miss Wilson, I will be much pleased. if you. will have those who speak confine their speeches as much as practicable to five minutes each, and if you will designate those who are to speak we will leave it to you to assign the time. Miss Witson. Before I call on the first pono Mr. Chairman, I want to present for your consideration a change which we want in the bill. I refer to the sentence beginning on line 24, page 4, section 6, “The herein provided for community center meetings and activi- ties shall be open and available in the discretion of the executive secretary for adult persons residing in the community.” That sen- tence has been understood to limit the power of the adults in relation. to the activities of the young people. I do not really think that it does. I simply meant that the executive secr etary would act as their. agent; but we do not want anything in the bill which even looks as if it were undemocratic or which possibly might operate against democracy in the community center, so that we advocate that that sentence be cut out. er Mr. Chairman, the three States which have the longest experience under a like provision to the provisions in the bill are Wisconsin, bie ap ae and Indiana. They have had, each of them, a bill which COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 27 makes it mandatory on the school boards to open the school build- ings to a neighborhood organization—a nonexclusive neighborhood organization; that 1s, one open to all the citizens in the school dis- trict—and so I should like to present Mrs. La Follette, from Wiscon- sin, to speak about the operation of the law of Wisconsin. [Ap- plause. | STATEMENT OF MRS. ROBERT M. LA FOLLETTE. Mrs. La Fotterre. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I feel that I could not in any way, if I had all the time there was, add to the argument that Miss Wilson has made for the more demo- cratic use of the’schools, but if T can in five minutes testify to the success of the movement in Wisconsin, I am very glad indeed of the opportunity to promote this cause in which -I so thoroughly believe. The movement in Wisconsin had its origin in our efforts to make our State more democratic, even to the extent of the diffusion of knowl- edge to all the people. A trained observer said of the University of Wisconsin that it offered to teach anybody anything anywhere, and it is true that through our extension work the university, which formerly carried on its work simply as a course of lectures in the more populous centers, has extended through exhibits, through lec- tures, and through bulletins, and through the living teachers, and through moving pictures—through all these agencies the university is now reaching out and has extended its work to the most remote rural centers, offering the people, according to their capacity and their needs, this opportunity to gather up the useful knowledge that is obtained through the investigation and research of the university. - This larger extension work of our university naturally led to a greater demand for the use of the schools. Up to that time the use had been rather desultory, and there was no well-defined principle as to their use, and naturally some questions arose as to what constituted the proper use of the public school; so that in 1911 a law was passed which made it mandatory that the use of the schools should be granted to associations of citizens, nonpartisan, nonsectarian, non- exclusive, for the discussion of public questions, and also for such social and recreational purposes as were consistent with the use of the schools for school purposes. ~ In 1914, which is the latest report I have as to the facts, there were in Wisconsin 70 towns and cities using the public schools as polling places—I should like to dwell upon that but I have not the time, and upon the reaction upon the citizenship—there had been held 20,000 different assemblies in all places by the people, and there were some- thing like 200,000 men and women engaged in the social-center work. I would not like to have anyone think that I am representing that the people of Wisconsin are really using their schoolhouses to the large extent that they should be used, but I do say, and I say it as a conservative statement, that the uses of schoolhouses have passed beyond the experimental stage, and that it has demonstrated the benefit of the use of the schools for a large variety of community purposes, for lectures, for debates, for musical and neighborhood dramatic entertainments, and also as centers of library distribution, and even as centers of labor exchange. Our schools have been used for that purpose. ~ 98 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Luoyp. Dees your law go far enough to allow you to use the schools for recreation purposes? Mrs. La Fouuerrr. Yes, sir; that 1s one of the features; and it should be noted that there is no uniform use of the school, but there will be a tendency on the part of one community to use it more for one purpose than for another. That is left to the people and to the growth of the idea, and it is the right principle, fundamentally. Perhaps the one fact that will contribute most to the discussion here this morning is that none of the dangers that are anticipated here to-day, on the part of the committee ‘and the public, have oc- curred in Wisconsin. The condition of the public schools has been just exactly, since they have been used for community purposes, as safe and well guarded and well protected as it is for school purposes, and so, while sometimes there have been some differences of opinion as to what questions should be discussed, still, on the whole, the whole question being left to the people, and the law settling the fact that the people do have the use of the schools, as a rule the people settle all of these problems for themselves. Mr. Luoyp. Are the school buildings used on Sunday? - Mrs. La Forterrs. That question has never arisen as a matter of discussion. They are used if the people want to use them, and there is no trouble about it. I could not help thinking, when this question was being discussed this morning, that it is perhaps extraordinary that there has not been a controversial speech. It has simply been settled by each community according to its views, and of course when the school is used for some thing it is used in different Ways, according to the specific views of the communities, T offer to the committee here a series of pictures that were very largely taken in Wisconsin and which were distributed throughout Wisconsin as suggestions of what community centers can be. What is being done in one community is of course helpful in another community, and, of course, the idea is that meeting in the school-. houses the people meet on democratic ground. But I do not need to remind this committee that it has been very well -said that a democracy is net perhaps so much a form of government as it is an attitude of mind, and it seems to me that this use of the community centers is the right way to cultivate the right attitude of mind, where our children meet on an equal footing; and it seems to me that the public schools, whatever their faults, are the great, if you will, basis of democracy, and where our children meet on a common footing there it is quite natural for the parents to meet on a common footing and for the community to come together and to discuss and work out their common_ problems. Mr. Trxxuam. In Wisconsin who has the regulation of the hours and the conduct? : Mrs. La Fotxerre. The law gives the power to an anccoiiaie of citizens. The law provides how the associations shall be organized; but as I understand it, it has never been necessary to-call into exer- cise that power of the law, because it being understood that the community had the use of the school buildings it has never been questioned, and so the school board has the control usually. ; ' Mr. Tinxuam. That is, that regulation. is mechanical, through the school board ? Mrs. La Fouuerre. Yes. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 29 Mr. Tinxuam. Then, they regulate the use of the buildings for the lectures? : Mrs. La Fotuerre. Yes; but of course the question is settled through the law so that there is no controversy as to whether it shall be allowed or not allowed. The question was raised whether that should be discussed, but even that was not taken to the courts, but. it was settled in the communities. Mr. Lioyp. Is your law somewhat similar to this proposed law? Mrs. La Forxerre. I have not made a study of the proposed law, but. I think the principle of this proposed law is the same;-but our law, of course, applies to the whole State, and is framed on general terms, and I have stated them as well as I could, and I know that I could read to you from what has been said by the president of our university and our State superintendent of public instruction and our high authorities, and I think the people of Wisconsin them- selves, if they could all be here and testify, would say that this was a great opportunity not only for the District of Columbia but for the United States, because of course Washington—and I would like to emphasize that point which Miss Wilson made—being the Capital, any movement started here under the auspices of the bureau of edu- cation is from that mere.fact a highly intelligent movement that is going to be of very great benefit to the whole country as an example; and { trust that your committee will feel that you have a great opportunity in reporting this bill not only to benefit the District of Columbia but to demonstrate and benefit the whole United States. I thank you. [Applause.] _ | Miss Wirson. May I introduce Judge Raker? He is qualified to tell us what has happened in California since the passage of the bill. STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN E. RAKER, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS, FROM THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA. Mr. Raker. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I want to say that this is a pleasure beyond words that I can gather to express, and it is a great satisfaction to give a few feeble remarks upon a bill having the purposes of the present bill before the com- mittee. ie So that it will not be taken out of my time, without reading it now, I should like to present and have printed in the record a copy of the California law on this subject. Mr. Luoyp. We shall be very glad to have it, Judge. Mr. Raxer. There are some features of this law I would lke par- ticularly to call the attention of the committee to, but I know the press of business, and the time would not be enough to give me an opportunity to do so, and therefore I will not now read it, as I possibly otherwise would do. axa I should be ungrateful to my State and to my country, viewing life as I do, and with the experience I have had, knowing that this bill that is now before the committee is but a reviving of what occurred in this country from its inception and what has made it what | it is, as I read the history of the other States and as I know for the last 40 years in my own, if I did not acknowledge that it has been the schoolhouse, used for the purposes provided for in this bill, that has given many a young man and many a young women an 30 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. opportunity for education and a start in life that they otherwise would not have had. It brings together not only the younger people but the graduates of our best institutions who are in the communities where these centers are. It brings together the doctor and the lawyer and the farmer and the blacksmith and all who participate and take that opportunity of giving their experience and expressing their ideas before a community gathering of this kind as they would in no other place. It has been my observation that men will there unlock their inner conscience and give the benefit of their knowledge to the community in which they lve. I say, from my personal observation, that in school gatherings, at the spelling class and the debating society and the gatherings of those of all classes, there as in no other place it has appeared to me that people really poured forth the knowledge and experience they had gathered for the benefit and the everlasting credit of the community in which they live, and to the benefit of the younger men and women of the community. Your jewels hidden may as well be lost; and the man with knowledge may as well have none unless he has some opportunity to practice it. Knowledge in solitude amounts to nothing without letting someone else know of it. It is dead and useless. California has a similar law that was brought about not so much as an absolute ee but to place it upon a basis so that no trustee could say * >to the community de- siring to use the schoolhouse for a public fomitins They generally permitted it to be used at any time when not used for school purposes; that is, when school was actually being conducted; but it is natural for some—I ought not to say selfish interests, but they ar halls and buildings in ~ the town, to say, “ Why, you ought not to have your entertainment— you ought not to have your proceedings in the public-school build- ing,” and thereby some will complain, and it creates a little objection. But away down deep there can not be any valid objection, as it ap- pears to me, to using our public-school buildings’ as open places for discussion of all subjects that may be discussed in any hall or in any place in the country, to the end that we may better ourselves; we may assist in giving others the benefit of what we may have gathered from many years of experience; and on the other hand, more valu- able than all, is the experience, the right knowledge, of those who have no other time to give it and no other place than places of this kind. Mr. Liuoyp. Have you had any trouble about this use of the schools on Sunday ? ~ Mr. Raker. No; we do not have any trouble of that kind. It takes care of itself; and I want to say to you, Mr. Chairman, in answer to that question, that God Almighty never made a better place than the public school to bring all people together, even on Sunday [applause], because some may go to some other places, may be doing some cther things, and there is plenty of room for us all, there is plenty of time; and from personal observation and from what I can see I can not conceive how anyone can make a valid objection to using a public-scheolhouse, paid for by the taxes of the entire community, for the purpose of the discussion of questions as presented in our State. Supervisional, recreational activities, edu- COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE -DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 381 cational, political, and economic, artistic and moral interests are those that are promoted under our law. ay : want to thank you, and I trust. that this bill may be reported out. _ Miss Wirson. Thank you, sir. [Applause.] The California law referred to by Mr. Raker, is as follows: Chapter 395.—An act providing for the free use of all public-school houses and ' property and to establish a civic center at each and every public-school house in the State of California, and to provide for the maintenance, conduct, and - Management of the same. (Approved June 6, 1913. In effect Aug. 10, 1913.) The. people of the State of California do enact as follows: _ Section 1. There is hereby established a civic center at each and every public- School house within the State of California, where the citizens of the respective public-school districts within the said-State of California may engage in super- ‘vised recreational activities, and where they may meet and discuss, from time to time, as they may desire, any and all subjects and questions which, in their judgment, may appertain to the educational, political, economic, artistic, and moral interests of the citizens of the respective communities in which they may reside: Provided, That such use of said public-school house and grounds’ for said meetings shall in no wise interfere with such use and occupancy of said puplic-scheol house and grounds as is now, or hereafter may be required for the purposes of said publie schools of the State of California. _ Sec. 2. Lighting, heating, janitor service, and the services of a special super- vising officer when needed, in connection with such use of public-school build- ings and grounds as set forth in section 1 of this act, shall be provided for out of the county or special school funds of the respective school districts in the same manner and by the same authority as such smilar services are now pro- vided for. Such use of the said schoolhouses, in case of entertainments where an admission fee is charged, a charge may be made for the use of said school- houses, property, and grounds. Lf - Sec. 3. The management, direction, and control of said civic center shall be vested in the board of trustees or board of education of the school district. Said board of trustees or board of education of the school shall make all needful rules and regulations for conducting said civic-center meetings and for such recreational activities as are provided for in section 1 of this act; and said board of trustees or board of education may appoint a special supervising officer who shall have charge of the grounds, preserve order, protect the school property, and do all things necessary in the capacity of a peace officer to earry out the provisions and the intents and purposes of this act. (California Statutes and amendments to the Codes, 1913. Pp. 8538 and 854.) Miss Witson. I should like now to ask Mrs. Miller, from Indiana, to speak. She is the wife of the judge of the juvenile court at South Bend, Ind. Indiana is a State whose law also embodies the principle that the schools belong to the whole citizenship. [Applause. ] STATEMENT OF MRS. MILLER. ~ Mrs. Miruer. As Miss Wilson has said, I am the wife of the judge of the juvenile court at South Bend, Ind., and, therefore, I am greatly interested in the benefits that have been derived from the playground and the community-center work. We are only 2 years old in the community-center work, but, if you people are familiar with the spirit of South Bend, its enthusiasm, its vim, and its industry, you: know we have had a good deal of experience in two years’ time. And, whether it is true or not, we boast of being the leading community center in the State of Indiana. We find | that the fears which are entertained here in Washington are identi- eal with the fears that: were entertained in South Bend, and those fears did not materialize in actual practice. We anticipated every- é 32 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. thing. There were those among us—of the most conservative, possi- bly—who feared everything that might be feared from what we call an opportunity for a general expression from the community as to the desires in the community. We find that our schoolhouses have not been abused, and that the proprietary interest, which the people of the community feel, has led them to do better by those school buildings than had been done previously. | In our community center we take more interest really in the recreation phase of it. The large industrial population which we have, and the very cosmopolitan population which we have, makes that thing necessary. South Bend provides education, and it pro- vides industry and labor for the most of our people, but it has never taken as much care of that one natural demand or play plea as it should have; and I believe most cities overlook that. I believe that we forget that there is a natural desire to play, and especially is that true of children; and we are making a great deal, in that community-center work, of the opportunities for those people who toil six days in the week and who do not have the means with which to hire independent halls and to give themselves the independent op- portunities to have the recreation, the play, and the educational ad- vantages that the community centers afford. Our present mayor said that if he was elected the one thing he would do was he would comply with the wishes as expressed by the general public. It gives them invaluable opportunity, having the mayor go about to these community centers where people are asso- ciated with their own kind and kin, and where they are free to speak, whereas if they were assembled in a central hall in the city where those that they consider are more influential would meet with them and where they would feel that they could not compare favorably with those people, they would not be able to express themselves; but when they are in their own home communities as they are in their own homes they do express themselves; and before a tract of land is purchased in South Bend at this time for a park or anything of the kind the mayor does ask the public and it does express itself through community centers as to the wish for the ownership of the particular property, and the taxpayers therefore are represented and their de- sires can be expressed through the mayor or any other of our offi- cials. The law originally provided that the board of health or some other board should provide for these centers, but 1t was placed in the hands of the school board under the term of its being for general educa- tion, and so the school board at the present time provides the funds and makes these contributions toward it. I am much obliged to you. | Applause. | Miss Wirson. Mrs. Miller is a wonderful woman. She stayed within her five minutes. Now, I should like to introduce the greatest person in the Grover Cleveland neighborhood; the greatest because the servant of all, and that is Miss Norton. [ Applause. | ; STATEMENT OF MISS NORTON. Miss Norron. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I come to you partly because I have been a teacher in the Grover Cleve- land School. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 33 For the last three years, and also because I have lived in the neigh- borhood of the school for 10 years; and so I come not as a teacher but as a representative of my neighbors, 215 of whom have asked for the use of the buildings for use on Sunday, and for the children’s pestiigs and the older boys and girls on the nights throughout the week. ; First of all I would like, if you will let me, to tell you why I be- came interested first in the night work of the schools, and then I think you will see the point of the forum in our neighborhood. There was what was known in our neighborhood as a “gang” of boys from 16 to 21 years old—and I think you can sympathize with boys in a crowded community in the city who have nothing to do in their evenings—and I happened to have a brother who was a member of that gang. These boys, some of them, were arrested one night for standing on the street corner, and when we asked what they had done, the captain of the precinct said they were blocking the sidewalk; but the thing that made me wonder was where else could they go to get together than on the street corners. These were boys who were pupils in the schools, high-school boys, and some working boys, and some went to the parochial schools right near. So we went to the board of education, and the superintendent of the board of education granted us permission to use the school one night a week for those boys; and the captain of the precinct said not long after that the complaint book m that precinct had been abolished; they did not need it any longer. Since that time we have organized girls’ clubs and organized a committee on sewing work and we have our dramatic club and we have our stage, and this last winter we had a dancing club of over 100 members, and they had to pay a small amount of dues, 5 cents, to buy records and other things that they have to have to keep the club going. All those things were beautiful, and after the thing was abolished there were difficulties. Through the first two winters we went into the building without any heat, and there was no money for a janitor, and they could not ask the janitor to come there, and take his time; so we went and wore our coats and wished we might be able to play basket ball with the boys, but they would not let us; and so the work has gone on for three years. The parents were interested; and to show that the work was bene- ficial, I would like to show you some pictures of an Indian operetta that we gave that was a real native affair. The Indian authorities helped us to get it up, they gave us the historical background, and everybody helped. (Miss Norton here exhibited to the committee the pictures re- ferred to.) The costumes were made by the boys’ mothers. We felt that this was of vital interest to the adults. They them- selves had: talked with us and wished that they might have an or- ganizaion. We felt just a little backward in going around organiz- ing for grown folks. We had found no difficulty at all in taking care of the young people. It was talked about for quite a while as to how they could get together and get organized, but it was not decided until Mr. E. J. Ward, of the bureau of education, came to town, and I met him and told him about the situation we were in 38523—16——3 34 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. and he said that he would go and look into affairs in all the neigh- borhoods, and he volunteered his time to go and see, so that he would know what kind of meeting we wanted; and the men and women that night said they wanted a forum, because, after hearing the idea of the forum explained, they decided they did not want anything as Narrow as a citizens’ association, but wanted a forum for the men, and we were given permission to use the building two Sunday after- noons, and after that the board did not give permission, 1 think, possibly because it was the first request that had come to do a thing like that on Sunday, and they were not quite ready to make up their minds. The meetings have been going on in the pubile library since. There are three reasons why an appropriation is necessary for this work. As you know, the appropriation for the community center in this bill is larger than that for the forum, because there are only 10 forums to meet probably once a week, whereas three of those buildings may be opened six nights a week, and that carries a larger appropriation. First of all, our superintendent, Mr. Thurs- ton, who has commended the work there, has said in his report to the commisisoners that this work should go on upon a public basis and by public appropriations, and I myself feel that it can only be carried on in the right way ‘when there are appropriations for it. We have playgrounds for the younger children, but we have abso- lutely nothing for the older boys and girls in the crowded portions of the city, and it is a great need. More than that, the other pro- gressive cities are doing fine things along this line. The city of Chicago has spent on the average $1, 000 000 for the past 20 years in recreational activities in communities. This amount has been large because they have constructed recrea- tional buildings. That would not have been such an expensive proposition if the board of education had not refused to give them the use of buildings. They have lately appropriated $40,000 for use for their school fund in Chicago. The city of New York has lately appropriated $240,000 for the use of its school buildings for community centers. Then I have a selfish reason why I feel favorably toward the bill, and that is this: I am not a charity worker. I am a public-school teacher, appointed by the board of education and paid by the people’s money, and I did not go into the night work because I was a charity worker, I went to see of what was said was true, that it did solve the situation in cities. It does. I know it. I have kept in the first © grade on $70 a month. I do not want the higher grade. I want to do this work, because I feel that it is valuable, and because I feel the night work does pay; so that I have faith in the work and faith in you in God’s truth and help, and I ask yours. [Applause. ] Miss Wiison. I want to ask Dr. Walker to speak on the Sunday question. I do not really believe it is your buisness or the business of Congress to decide the question of the Sunday use of these aca but the question has come up. STATEMENT OF DR. WALKER. Dr. Wauxer. Miss Wilson has kindly prescribed my talk, that it shall be 1 in regard to the matter of Sunday, and I think that is very COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 30 wise, although there are some self-evident propositions that I would not like to take your time to consider. First of all, should the schoolhouses that were built by the people and maintained by the people be used for the instruction of us older children when they are not being used for the instruction of the young! It is not worth while to argue that question. . Then the second question that comes up in regard to this bill is, should we older children be kept comfortable while we are having our lessons, by having janitor service, and so on? If so, there shoul be an appropriation made for that purpose, assuming that we have a right to use. But now we come to the point upon which I was requested to speak. I will not insult your patriotism, gentlemen of the committee, by arguing that you should accept a bill or reject a bill upon the premise of Sunday afternoon usage. The very first amendment to our Constitution covered that ground; and if you, having that bill before you now, would report it favorably to the House of Repre- sentatives because it gives an opportunity for Sunday use, or using Sunday afternoon for these purposes; or if, on the other hand, von would reject the bill and report it unfavorably to the House because of that clause, you are taking up a matter that is none of your busi- ness, speaking plainly. Mr. Trxxuam. I think you are right. Dr. Waker. You have nothing to do with that whatever. But for those gentlemen who have exercised themselves so violently against this Sunday evening service, I would make a few suggestions. This question of what men should do or should not do on what we popularly call the Sabbath is a question as old as the present dispen- sation. There was a little argument held down in Judea about that. The followers of the Master got hungry, and they plucked some corn; and some there who thought they were very much better than this Nazarene said to him that he must be a sinner or his followers would not thus break the Sabbath, and he took occasion there to ask a very pertinent question——-and I will ask that question now to anybody whom it may concern: “Is it lawful to do right, to do good, on the Sabbath Day, or is it lawful to do evil on the Sabbath Day?” And then I would reiterate an incisive statement made by the Master on that occasion: He said the Sabbath was made for man, and not. man for the Sabbath. ‘I am not making that argument to the committee, because they do not need that argument at all, but I am suggesting it to those who have so violently opposed our use of the forum on Sunday afternoon. Gentlemen of the committee, I heard it hinted here that there might be some objection because of making a political speech; that somebody would be there on Sunday evening making a political speech before the forum. I will just humbly submit that I would rather hear one of you gentlemen who is competent to instruct the people politically, who is an expert in that matter, make a political speech on Sunday evening than to hear a clerical gentleman make a political speech in the pulpit on Sunday morning. { Applause. | | Not long ago a clerical gentleman in your sunny State [address- ing Mr. Raker] took for a text: “‘ Must the Chinese go? ” Mr. Raxer. On Sunday as well as any other day. 86 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Dr. Waxxer. And he occupied the time when he should have been talking about spiritual matters with that matter. I submit I would rather hear those things spoken of from the forum in the afternoon than to hear them from the pulpit on Sunday morning, and I insist _ that the question should be left to the people entirely. The funda- mental principle of our liberty is religious liberty, as a corner stone of our institutions, and the very moment you refuse to leave it to the people, whether it be the forum in a given neighborhood of the city or the whole people at large, as to what they shall do or shall not do on the Sunday, you encroach upon our religious liberties. Mr. Focrr. I judge from your observations that you believe that a Congressman delivering a political speech on Sunday evening might have his points in better adjustment than the preacher de- livering a political speech in his pulpit on Sunday morning; but let me ask you further, Do you think that in either case either the preacher or the Member. of Congress could convince you against your present political convictions ? Dr. Warxer. No, sir. I want to be instructed on that or any other subject, but I want the man who undertakes to instruct me to be com- petent, and I think you gentlemen, Members of Congress, are much better prepared to do that than the preachers. Mr. Focur. We do not deny it. [ Applause. | Miss Wiison. I would lke to ask Mr. Jackson H. Ralston to speak four or five minutes. STATEMENT OF JACKSON H. RALSTON, ESQ. Mr. Rausron. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I find myself very much interested in this subject from a general and public and, I think, a disinterested point of view. We have in the District of Columbia millions of dollars invested in school buildings. That property is used for a small percentage of the time. Now, we speak often of wastefulness in mechanics, and we speak of wasteful- ness in education, in government, in not getting the fullest return © for our money. When we have an investment of millions of dollars, an investment designed for the purpose of the education of the peo- ple—and education knows no limit of age, I am glad to believe— when we find an investment of that kind not put to its most pro- ductive uses, why, I think from the standpoint of those interested in public affairs and property we have a just right of complaint. The object, or one of the great objects, of this bill, as I understand, is to make dead property useful, to put that dead property to its highest use, and I find myself unable to appreciate any argument which will run dead against the fullest beneficial use of the governmental prop- erty for the purpose for which it is intended. Some doubt is expressed as to whether the property will be per- haps rightfully used. I do not know. I think that in all matters of taste—and largely the objections which will be raised to this bill are from the standpoint of taste—we may trust well to the general pub- lic. If anything materially outrage the best taste of the people in the management of these affairs it will speedily be stamped upon, if you please; speedily be stopped. We trust the taste of the people in a thousand different ways. Why not trust them in this particular way? [Applause.] COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRIOT OF COLUMBIA, a1 Some allusion has been made to the fact that an objection has been raised to the use of this property on Sunday. I think that that ignores the fact that even the discussion of political questions, car- ried to its ultimate, involves a discussion of matters of essential right and wrong, and if it be more moral and more appropriate to discuss matters of right and wrong on one day rather than another, certainly it should be most appropriate to discuss political questions, which have in the ultimate a basis of right and wrong, on that day rather than on any other. So my proposition would be that if we discuss political questions which ought to be discussed, and upon the highest ethical basis, even, if you please, on the floors of Congress, if we are to discuss political questions upon that basis and educate our people to the fullest democratic development, then by all means let us be at entire and complete liberty to use the schools, if need be, for that kind of discussion on the Sabbath as well as on any other day. Mr. Ragespare. Following your line of thought, why would it not be better, then, to keep our courts of justice open on Sunday, keep the legislature going on Sunday, and all other institutions of that kind operating on Sunday? Mr. Rauston. I did not discuss the religious reason which is ad- vanced, because I do not think it is necessary to discuss that; but we do not keep our courts open, aside from the religious reason, because we recognize the essential necessity of a day of rest. Mr. Ragspatz. Ought not that to apply to the employees of school buildings just as much as it should to other employees? r. Rauston. If the employees are overworked; but that is a question of detail which may be arranged. I will allude to the fact, by way of illustration, that I understand the rule in France to be at the present time that employees must have one day of rest in seven; it may be Sunday; it may be some other day; but there, laying aside the religious side of it entirely, the physical side is recognized; and I should assume that in any arrangement which might be made by the board of education the physical side should at least not be lost sight of. | | ‘Vi. Ragspauz. And that the religious side should be lost sight of ? Mr. Ratston. Not necessarily. Mr. Raaspate. I think you quoted France there. Mr. Raxston. Oh, we are getting into a discussion that is very far, it seems to me, from this particular occasion. Mr. Ragspatz. Well, end it right here. Mr. Ratston. But; Mr. Congressman, if you carefully abstained from holding committee meetings on Sunday—there are suspicions that committee meetings have been held on Sunday even by Con- gressmen. Mr. Ragspatx. If you will permit me, speaking for myself, I will say that I never attended a committee meeting of Congress on Sunday. Mr. Vinson. There are no committee meetings on Sunday, but there are other gatherings, sometimes, in committee rooms. Mr. Ratston. They are quite indistinguishable, in point of fact; and if we attempted to follow very closely the rule of Sunday observ- ance we would be compelled to have our wives desist from the neces- sary operations of cooking and serving the table and taking care of the house. 88 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Luoyp. You did not intend, did you, to leave the impression that it was the custom of Congress to have committee meetings on Sunday ? Mr. Rauston. Oh, by no means. I assume that it is a condition which, if it arises at all, arises from necessity. Mr. Luoyp. Did it ever occur ? Mr. Rausron. Yes. Mr. Racspatr. Will you give me an instance of it? Mr. Trnxuam. I have been here a number of years and never heard of such a thing occurring. Mr. Ratston. I think it will be admitted that Sunday meetings of Congress have been held, and I think that certainly involves the principle quite as much as a committee meeting could possibly do. Mr. Lioyp. The Sunday meetings of Congress which are held are memorial days. Mr. Racspate. No Sunday meetings are held except by way of memorials. | Mr. Luoyp. They are held as a matter of necessity. Mr. Rauston. Precisely; that was my observation. Miss Wiison. I would like to call on Mr. Watrous to address you next. STATEMENT OF MR. RICHARD B. WATROUS. Mr. Warrovs. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, it is in a double capacity I am glad to appear for a few minutes—first, as a resident and citizen of Washington, and, second, as the secretary of the American Civic Association, which in response to a very great call from all over this country for information as to the community-center idea has made it one of the subjects of special attention, and at its last convention in this city, last December, devoted one entire session to it, with Miss Wilson, who gave such a clear statement of the idea of the community center this morning, as presiding officer, and I beg to submit for your consideration an introductory statement she made | at that time as throwing some light on the subject. Miss Wilson is now the chairman of the committee on community centers of the American Civic Association. My purpose in appearing, gentlemen, is to impress upon you, if I may, the opportunity that now rests upon you through Congress to send out the word to the entire United States that the Congress has considered this question of a larger use of the schools and believes in it, and we hope you will report the bill favorably, and that it will pass, and in that way it will be recommended as a. precedent for all of the cities and towns of all of this Nation. It has been demonstrated in not a small number of instances that for several reasons there has been objection by boards of education to granting the use of the schools on the request of the people for the purposes as indicated in the community-forum idea. It might be that such an objection would arise in the District of Columbia. It rests with Congress to say just what shall and what shall not be done. You have the opportunity to say that in this city, the Nation’s Capi- tal, the schools erected at the cost of millions of dollars shall be available to the people all of the time, when such use does not conflict with the use for which they were primarily erected, namely, the COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 39 teaching of the children, for their community usage and discussion, and all of the time may take in seven days of the week, and that message going out will establish a precedent to the other cities and be a splendid precedent, because the people do listen when the word comes from Washington that certain things have been done. You may know that this subject is not a new one, and that it is very widespread in its interests and application. I would say to you that some six years ago the then governor of New Jersey, now the President of the United States, went to Wisconsin and devoted three days, with other advocates of that idea, to discussing it and formu- lating plans; and from that time progress has been making for the larger use of the schools. An impulse was given then. A still greater impulse may now be given if the Congress says that the city over which it has actual jurisdiction shall use its schools. That message going out to the country, it will be a splendid message, and means very much for the idea which has been so clearly set before you to-day of the larger use as community centers of the public schools which are erected by the people on money they have paid. I thank you. [ Applause. | Mr. Marrs. May I ask you one or two questions before you take your seat? Mr. Wartrovs. Yes, sir. Mr. Marrs. Is this bill copied from any State law or modeled after any State law? Mr. Warrovs. I have not had a hand in helping draft the bill. I should imagine that some of the best ideas of other bills from other States have been adopted. Mr. Marrs. You have no information about that? Mr. Warrovs. I have no information definitely. Mr. Mares. What is the genesis of this proposition; do you know that ? Mr. Warrovs. Will you state the question a little more clearly? Mr. Marrs. Where did the idea originate, of having these com- munity centers? | Mr. Vinson. What is the origin of this kind of legislation ‘ Mr. Warrovs. I would say that the first application of the idea was in Westchester. Is that right, Mr. Ward? Mr. Warp. Yes. Mr. Luoyp. He means here. Why this proposed change in the law ? Mr. Warrovs. Oh, here? I will say that the impression prevails that if there has not already been a disposition to decline the use of the schools, there might some day arise a condition where the board of education might say that the school buildings were not available for this purpose. : Mr. Mares. This idea of the school buildings being open on Sunday seems to have taken prominent place in the remarks of most of the speakers. Was the bill meant primarily to cover that feature? Mr. Warrovs. I should say not. I should say that it had that in mind. Mr. Marrs. Do you know what the rule is in the other States; what is the law in the States that deals with the use of the school- houses on Sunday ? 40 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Mr. Warrovus. I know the rule in California, because Judge Raker has stated this afternoon that there is no rule against the use of the schools on Sunday. J do not imagine that in Wisconsin, where the idea has been given such a good start, there is any objection to the use of the school buildings on Sunday. Mr. Marrs. Have you any definite idea about that? Mr. Warrous. Mr. Ward, have you any information about that? Mr. Marrs. If you do not know, I will not ask you further. Mr. Wartrovus. I do not know. . Mr. Ragspaue. Then the real need in this legislation is not for something that has transpired, but for the fear that lest it might occur in the District of Columbia ? Mr. Warrous. Partly; and partly no, There has been a refusal of the use of the schools on Sunday. Mr. Ragspae. One refusal ? Mr. Wartrovus. One refusal. Mr. Raespate. And for that reason you think we ought to set aside absolutely the power of the school board over all of the school build- ings in the District of Columbia and vest it in other authorities, for this one refusal of use on Sunday ? Mr. Warrovs. I think Congress, which has jurisdiction over all school matters in the District of Columbia, ought to make it clear that the schools can be used at all times for adults and children. Mr. Raespate. And absolutely destroy the right of those who are responsible for these structures, who are responsible to Congress for their maintenance and protection, so that they may be absolutely without any voice in the control and direction of them ? Mr. Wartrous. I do not see that it takes away their authority, be- cause you would have to go to them to get them to indicate what schools shall be used. Mr. Racspate. After that is once indicated, then the power vests in the forum, and not in the board? It wholly vests in this forum board and the school board is immediately deprived absolutely of it? Mr. Warrovus. It goes right back to the place where it belongs, with the people. | Mr. Racspatz. But it does not go to the people, but to a forum. Mr. Wartrovus. Well, the forum is composed of the people. Mr. Racspaue. Do you think necessarily all of the people would be- long to the forum? In other words, there might be a thousand peo- ple out of whom 20 would belong to the forum, and the other 980 of them would be denied any right; because the power of control is taken from the school board, and the power immediately vests in those 20, under this legislation. Mr. Watrous. The others can go. . Mr. Racspate. I know thev can, but I ask you if that is one of the things that might obtain. Mr. Wartrovus. I do not anticipate it. Mr. Ragcspate. I did not ask you if you did. I asked you if it might not obtain ? Mr. Warrovs. It might. Mr. Ragspate. All right. Mr. Marrs. As one of the proponents of the bill, would you be satisfied with it if it was passed excepting the use of the buildings on Sundays? COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 4] Mr. Warrovs. I should think that would be unfortunate. I wel- come the opportunity to go to church very regularly, I think as a rule twice on Sunday. I would welcome the opportunity to practice what I consider an observation of Sunday as a day of rest, to par- ticipate in forums as proposed by this bill. Miss Wurson. I should like to ask Mr. Allen Davis, principal of the Business High School, to speak. STATEMENT OF MR. ALLEN DAVIS. Mr. Davis. Mr. Chairman, I on this occasion perhaps may stand as an innocent bystander who has been drawn into a very interesting discussion, because in the beginning Miss Fairley asked me to preside at her initial meeting as a representative of the citizens’ association. Out, however, of my acquaintance with the forum I want to empha- size a few points which I deem important for this body; and, first, that the forum and the social activities are a natural development. They are not forced. They came about from a free discussion of the citizens of the Grover Cleveland community. On organization night the intention was, I believe, to organize another citizens’ asso- ciation, but it was found that that would interfere with the work already in existence, and the citizens of that body, after a spirited and yet exhaustive discussion, decided to organize a community center combined with the forum; and the point I want to make is this: That that is entirely in line with the modern trend of educa- tional development all over this country. Miss Fairley and Miss Norton are in advance of Washington procedure, but they are far behind procedure in many of our sister cities. This is not an experi- ment except in our own city. It has been practiced and established, and it is worth while. Secondly, I want to except to some of the objections that have been raised and will be raised that these buildings will not be protected; that they will be taken from under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Education. On the contrary, the present bill gives better protection to the buildings than they have had under any bill or any procedure ‘that provides for night meetings, for this reason: The present bill makes it imperative that the jurisdiction of the building should remain where? With the responsible head; the principal or some one to whom he delegates it—probably a member of his staff. The present bill provides that there shall be adequate paid service for care and assistance, and the present bill, more completély than any bill governing night-school service, provides for the adequate and complete service of the janitor and janitor service. You may say that the forum would control these buildings. With regard to mat- ters of study, with regard to literary exercises, or otherwise, that is true; but, mark you, that the health rules will prevail and the rules of the board of education governing these buildings in a material way will prevail; they can not be superseded by a forum which acts within their jurisdiction, so that I see no objection whatever on the ground of protection of the buildings. It seems to me that the building protection is ample, that the officers are provided, as never before, and that this bill is to be commended as a material as well as an educational step in advance. 49 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, If I may be so bold, listening to this discussion here, may I cite something that seems perhaps fair to say? I believe that the differ- ence of opinion on this occasion is not in any sense a difference of in- dividuals, but it is a difference of environment and viewpoint. We have in all cases the inevitable conflict of democracy with monarchy with aristocracy, however you look at it. In this question we have Miss Fairley and Miss Norton close to the people, developing a demo- cratic system of government, reaching out into the homes, doing a reat deal for their little communities, developing pretty nearly an ideal city democracy on a small scale; and on the other hand we have the board of education, made up of men and of women of unim- peachable character, but by their very environment and by all their responsibilities, intrusted with the work of directing and guiding these schools, and I think it is very unfortunate that these two bodies have not seen that there is really no conflict here, that the duty of the board of education is to direct the children and the schools, but that when the board of education deals with adults, then it is merely a material and not a supervisory affair. In other words, the board -of education will not be responsible for what is said in a public forum; it will not be responsible for what is said by the adults in a social settlement meeting. It will be responsible, and will have control through its secretaries and its educators, for the moral and the educa- tional side of the children. I believe that Mr. Lincoln said that no man is good enough to control the body of another. I think we might paraphrase that by saying that no board of education and no set of men, however eminent, however educated, is able to control the con- science of the adult community. [Applause.] Miss Witson. Mr. Lloyd, may I turn in a statement drawn up representing the views of the committee representing the forum that has already been organized, which will give the full history of the start of the movement here in. the District of Columbia ? Mr. Liuoyp. We would be very glad to have that; and will you put that in the record as a part of your hearing? Miss Witson. All right. Now, I should like to ask Mr. E. J. Ward, who started the whole mevement, which is now called the community center movement, to speak to you. He does not claim’ to have started a new idea—that was in the town meeting—but he did start the movement in Rochester, and I am sure that the audience and the committee would lke to hear from Mr. E. J. Ward. STATEMENT OF MR. E. J. WARD. Mr. Warp. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the point of essential importance, because it is the point of danger and misunderstanding, is in the use of the buildings as a center of community assembly in contrast with the use of the building as a center of any kind of dis- unity assembling. To put it in the phrase of an editorial in the New York Sun of day before yesterday, public school buildings belong to the public, and should not be used for any faction whatever. As to the whole idea cf the community center, in so far as the experience is concerned which began in Rochester in 1907 and continued there through three years until 1910, at which time the board of educa- tion had its character so changed that it came to refuse to recognize any authority in the citizenship regarding the meetings in the build- COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ye \ ing, and then coming over into Wisconsin for five years, in Cali- \ fornia for five years, and then in Indiana and the other States, the essential point is the point that has been brought up here, and the point of most important misunderstand, if I may say it, is the idea that the school building may be turned over to a factional or sec- tarian or any other kind of a private-interest group. The natural group in society, which is a group which is out for some specific thing, the organization of the public body, the creation of a community organization whose object is public discussion with- out the pushing forward of any private interest, must be artificially created. Under the present law which obtains in the District of Columbia and which existed in Wisconsin prior to the development of the principle about which Mrs. La Follette spoke, the law there written in 1910, passed by the legislature of 1910 and 1911, declaring that where the citizenship of any local public school and district is organized on a basis of inclusion of the whole community—that is, if a person resides in the district, an adult person, he is a member by virtue of his presence there, which is the basis of voting membership now, just as some basis of discussion, membership, or parliamentary organization—wherever that is done, there the school board becomes the agent under that body rather that the authority over it in- the matter of determining the time of meeting and the handling of the business of that organization for the purposes of discussion. The sovereignty of the adult citizenship is recognized when the adult citizenship of any community is organized into a committee of the whole which does not represent a private, but does represent the public, interest. The experience of the three years in Rochester is that where such an organization was formed, on the basis not of party council but of common council, on the basis not of a faction but of the community as a whole, with the purpose of developing public intelligence through the all-sided presentation of public questions, the spirit of restraint has tended to develop. Miss Wilson has here the statement from the president of the board of education of the city of Rochester, and I may perhaps read from this statement re- garding the experience beginning the idea of the community forum organization. I read as follows: As the movement developed certain very significant phases appeared. One of the most interesting was the influence of free and fair discussion upon radical opinion. One of the most extreme socialists in the city publicly stated that his views had been seriously modified by the discussions in the civic clubs. Many others gave similar testimony. This result is the more surprising be- cause it was feared by many that these free centers of public discussion would be seized upon and controlled by radicals and extremists, and because radical opinion was freely expressed opponents of the movement charged that they were so controlled, but no action of any civic club ever gave the slightest foundation for such a charge. On the contrary, the net result of the move- ment was to modify extreme opinion and bring it into line with rational progress. Tf it will be of value, I would submit the complete statement of the experience from the first city which put into operation this principle. In the State of Wisconsin, in 1910, the Rochester demonstration of the possibility of community organization for self-education of adults was taken by the University of Wisconsin as a means of the self-development—self-spread—of the educational idea to which that State is devoted, and in 1910 the bureau of community center 44 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. development was established in the university. Immediately the plan of organization set forth in this bill was put out in the form of a community constitution. Two towns in the State refused to have school buildings used where the adults desired and when the adults desired for the purposes that they desired, so that this law was enacted in 1910 and 1911 which establishes the right-——which creates the right and recognizes the right—of the adult citizenship of any community to determine the time of its own meeting, and places the school board in loco parentis of the children and over adults in the use by the adults and children in common of the school buildings. The experience of that State in the five years has demonstrated absolutely that respecting the responsibility and respecting the de- sires of the adults of a community does tend to produce the spirit of control, the spirit of interest in education, and does not at all tend toward any kind of abuse of the building, or uses that are not proper. The question specifically on the bill, whether any outside of a community organization can use the building under this proposed law, it seems to me is answered in the bill. The purpose of the bill— the purpose of this provision—is not only to assure a consistent use of the school buildings by the adults and by the older youth, but it is to prevent an inconsistent use of these buildings such as is sure to obtain so long as these public buildings are used for private organizations, which is the condition to-day, and is inevitable until the machinery of organizing the community on a basis of residential membership - is established. The possibility that has been suggested of 20 people being given and having the schoolhouse for any kind of sectarian organization does not exist under the bill. Twenty people can start the machinery by which the people may have the opportunity of organizing the community as one body on the principle of a com- munity association, and that is very specifically provided for. Mr. Focur. Are you not connected with the Young Men’s Chris- tian Association of the United States as secretary ? ; Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Focut. You approve of the Sunday entertainments ? Mr. Warp. I would approve of the Sunday use of the building in any community that wanted it. The only place, may I say, as to which my approval may be appropriately expressed is in the, Park View neighborhood, in which I happen to reside. I feel that within that neighborhood I have a very definite and distinct right to ex- press myself as to whether that building should be used on Sunday or not. I do not believe that I have a bit of right to say to the peo- ple in the Grover Cleveland community whether they should use their building on Sunday or not; neither do I believe that they have a bit of right to control our action in that respect. It seems to me that it is a matter which should be handled, after experiment, only by the people of each community for themselves. Moreover, in an experi- ence of nearly 10 years—9 years—since the principle of the Johnson bill has been in operation in the use of the public-school buildings in the city of Washington, this is the first time that I know of, here and now, that the issue of Sunday use has been raised—the issue of whether the adult citizens are to control the matter or whether the school board is to control the adult citizens. Usually it is not a question of whether they want to meet on Sunday, and in every case COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 45 that I know of the school board has assumed that if they want to meet, then they will meet, and that that is a proposition for them to decide. That was the case in the city of Rochester; that is the case in Wisconsin and in California and in every one of the States where this bill holds—I mean where this provision is made. The point that is usually raised is on what topic the people shall talk and what shall be said in those community meetings. If you will go back into the situation in Ohio, you will find in Cincinnati that it was when the people wanted to talk about the street car service in Cincinnati that they were shut out of the school building, because it was that dangerous and incendiary topic of discussion on which they wanted to treat. In the State of Wisconsin, in the city of Appleton, the people wanted to talk about commission govern- ment, and the board of education did not approve of the idea of being put out of business, or the suggestion of putting out of busi- ness the board of aldermen, which gave them their positions, so they said that “commission government” would not be a proper subject for discussion. Over in New York City, if you noticed in the press recently, there has been a question as to whether or not the policy of “preparedness” is a proper question for discussion in the school- houses, and the school board has been criticized on that. The school board has announced—the president of the school board has said that what is discussed is'a matter for the people to decide themselves, provided it does not interfere with the laws of the city and the police power of the city. I know of no case where the Sunday question has come up, and in an experience of 10 years I have very, very fre- quently spoken in school buildings on Sunday and never have known of a case of the community getting itself torn up over it, because it is assumed that the people shall meet when they desire. | Mr. Ragspatz. You stated just now that this is a question of whether the people shall contro] the school board or the school board shall control the people. Now, the school board is seeking in no way that I know of, in this instance, to control the people. They merely want to control the property that has been put in their hands in trust. How could you hold the school board responsible for the property that has been put in its hands in trust if you are to deprive them of the control of that property and turn it over to the people? Mr. Warp. The exclusion of the people—I am not attempting to make a textual interpretation of the Constitution Mr. RagspatE (interposing). You know what you are saying? - Mr. Warp. Yes; I do; but the spirit of the first amendment to the Constitution is that Congress shall make no law which will inter- fere with the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and that is the spirit which recognizes not only the sovereignty but the parental responsibility of the people of the community. and which recognizes their right to assemble, provided they be peaceable and orderly. Now, the assertion of that right, as I understand it, is not dependent upon the right to vote. I mean therein is recognized a certain right of the people, as Americans, which would apply to the people in the District of Columbia—the right of peaceable assembly. Now, grant- ing that there is that right, in order to exercise that right, which is fundamental, there must be a place in which to meet. The place which is owned by the people is surely an appropriate place to meet, 46 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. provided that the use of that place does not interfere with the pur- pose of its creation. Of course it seems to me that it would be inde- fensible to say that the adult citizenship of any community has any natural or artificial or any kind of right to use the schoolhouse in such a way as to interfere with its primary purpose as a place for the instruction of children; but, as I see it, the assembly right of the adult citizenship of the community implies the right of the adult citizenship to control or designate its own time of meeting. Now, when the school board or the board of education asserts—and I ree- ognize that under the present law the board of education is given that power, and it seems to me that the present law is anomalous to make the board of education, which is an agency for the instruction of the children, to give it power or to give it the opportunity for inter- preting the law as meaning that it has the power of control in this respect over the adult citizenship is an exaltation of the creature over the creator. Mr. Ragspats. But no one claims that the school board has any right over the adult citizens. It merely vests them with the right to control the property which has been placed in their charge in trust. If, therefore, a minority in any one community, in the face of the known opposition of a large majority in that community, desires to use the property for which the people were taxed that it might be created, do you think a condition of that kind ought to obtain, where that minority can use that property as it sees fit, in the face of the known objection of a large majority of the other citizens in that community ¢ | Mr. Warp. No; I do not. Mr. Racspatz. Under this law, would not that be possible? Mr. Warp. No, sir. Mr. Raaspaue. Let us see; you would permit, say, 20 adults in any community to use the school building absolutely without any restric- tion Mr. Warp (interposing). I suggest a reading of the bill. Mr. Racspats. All right, sir; I will read it to you: Sec. 2. That whenever application shall be made in writing to the Commis- sioners of the District of Columbia by not less than 20 adult persons residing within a radius of one-half mile of a public-school building designated by the said commissioners for use aS a community forum the said commissioners shall define and fix the territorial limits within which adult persons must reside to entitle them to membership and participation in an association of adult persons to use aS a communty forum a public-school building designated by the said commissioners for that purpose. Mr. Warp. May I suggest that you are using the board of educa- tion bill in place of the commissioners’? Mr. Racspate. That dees not alter the principle. Mr. Warp. No. Mr. Racspaue. That is immaterial. (Reading) : That whenever application is made to,the board of education of the District of Columbia, as provided in section 2 of this act, the said board shall direct the superintendent of public schools, etc. Now, 1f you can show me why it requires more than 20 persons to organize that in a community that might comprise a thousand peo- ple—if you can show me why those 20 people might not, in the face of the opposition of a majority of the balance of them, form a forum, COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 47 I shall be glad to have you do so, and if you can show me how they might not deprive this board of the right to control that property under this law, I would like to have you doit. Mr. Warp. Suppose that 20 people, under the provisions of this bill—let us take a specific building, the Grover Cleveland section building, for instance, that building having been designated by the board of education as available for use as a community forum, and among the people there, we will say, there is one who gets 19 other people to agree that it is desirable to have that building open for use as a community forum. They take a statement in writing to that effect to the board of education, and it thereupon becomes the duty of the board of education not to turn the building over to them, but to define the territory in which shall reside the membership of the citizens or persons—adult persons—who can control or who shall have the right of control of that building. Mr. Ragspate. Oh, no. Pardon me. When this is done, it also be- comes their duty not merely to define the territory, but under sec- tion 5, on page 3, it says: That when an organization of adult persons shall have been formed and by- laws and regulations adopted for the conduct of the meetings of the association as provided in the preceding section, it shall be the duty of the board of edu- cation to make all necessary arrangements and provision for the comfortable and convenient use of the school building for the weekly, biweekly, or monthly meetings of such association at such times as the association may designate for its meetings. Therefore, you have an association of 20 people, and they take over the building, and they designate the time, and it becomes the duty of the board to provide all the conveniences and comforts necessary for their use. In other words, you propose to turn over, under this act, this public property of the District of Columbia, to provide and maintain which all the people of the United States have been taxed, to a small minority of the people, and to give them absolute control of these public structures for such use as they may see fit to make of them; is not that correct ? Mr. Warp. No, sir. | _Mr. Ragcspate. Then tell me wherein I am not correct? Mr. Warp. In the first place, the uses which you are condemning are the uses which are now made of them. Mr. Racspatr. But do not let us discuss the uses. Mr. Warp. But, in passing, let us make the point—because I want to say that I am absolutely with you in the position as to the private sectarian use of public property, and I will say that that is the only kind of use that is going on now, and that is the use that will con- tinue until this bill is enacted—but to get back to the form of organ- ization, these 20 people who want to have the building, not for their use, but for use as a community forum, go to the school board and say that they so desire. It then becomes the duty of the school board to agree upon a primary unit of organization; that is, a primary dis- tance comparable to the public school district that exists in_ that community. It then becomes the duty of the board of education— and it seems to me that this is very plainly set forth—through its agent, its responsible agent, the superintendent or the principal, to arrange a meeting, which shall be announced as a public meeting, and so published in the press. 48 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Ragspate. I read all that. Mr. Warp. At this meeting, which is called for the organization of a community forum, the people of that district—the adult citizens of that district—have the opportunity to come there to that build- ing and organize, or to vote not to organize. They have an absolute referendum—an absolute veto on whether. that building shall be so used or not. It can not be used unless a majority of the people who are interested enough to come to that public meeting vote to have it used as a community forum. | Mr. Ragspate. Can you show me that in the bill? Mr. Warp. Why, certainly. Mr. Ragspaue. I wish you would. Mr. Warp. That is in what you were reading. Mr. Ragspate. Oh, no. Mr. Warp. That whenever application is made to the board of ed- ucation, as provided in section 2 of the act, by 20 persons—— Mr. RacspaLE (interposing). Oh, no; but show me that clause where you say that a majority of the people may prevent its for- mation. Mr. Focur. Where do you get any referendum ? Mr. Warp. The superintendent shall issue a call for the meeting of organization and shall serve as organization secretary until an asso- ciation of adult persons shall have been formed or organized. Mr. Racspatx. You state specifically that it only requires 20 adult persons. Mr. Warp. Oh, no; I do not. I say that 20 adult persons may touch the button that will start the current going. | Mr. Racspate. Show me specifically where it requires more than 20 persons to form an organization. Just show me that. Mr. Warp. The meeting is announced as a public meeting. Mr. Ragspate. I know; as many people as desire may attend the meeting; but show me where in this bill it requires more than 20 to form such an organization. Mr. Warp. I have not said that it did. Mr. Racspate. Then, 20 may do it? Mr. Warp. I have said that there is an opportunity for the whole community to attend the meeting. Mr. Racgspats. I know that. Mr. Warp. And there is an opportunity for referendum. Mr. Racspatz. Where? Mr. Warp. Of the adult citizens of the whole District. Mr. Ragspatx. Oh, no; there is an opportunity to join the organ- ization. I know that. Mr. Warp. No; to decide whether or not they will organize. Do you decide whether or not you will organize the House at the begin- ning of a session ? Mr. Racspatz. Oh,no. That is fixed by law that it shall be organ- ized, and the people down home decide whether or not I shall be a Member of the House. Mr. Warp. Where is the authority of the people down home under which you act, ultimately ? COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 49 Mr. Ragspate. We act under the Constitution, my dear sir. The Constitution determines how people shall be elected as Members of Congress. Mr. Warp. The Constitution is the constitution of the States, as representatives. Mr. Racspaty. Oh, no; we are entitled to representation here by reason of the National Constitution; not by reason of the State con- stitution. Mr. Warp. The final authority. Mr. Racspaux. Yes; the final authority is the United States Con- stitution. Mr. Warp. But the authority under the Constitution is the sov- ereignty of the people of the States. ‘Mr. Racspaue. Yes; and we have to go into a regular election in order to determine it, and until we get a majority vote by the people we can not come here. Under this you propose that a minority of 20 people | Mr. Warp (interposing). Oh, no. Mr. Racespate. Show me where it requires more than 20 people to form this organization ? Mr. Warp. I say that the announcement of a public meeting makes it possible Mr. RagspaLe (interposing). Oh, yes; you say that the oppor- tunity to attend a public meeting gives them an opportunity to de- cide, but show me where it requires more than 20 people to form this organization. Mr. Warp. I say if an opportunity is given for all of the persons in the local community to come to the building and vote upon the organization of an association of this character Mr. Racspae (interposing). And if they do not want to attend, then 20 may go and join and organize, and operate and control the public property, in absolute defiance of the balance and the majority of that community ¢ Mr. Warp. If the large maj prevent it. Mr. Racspate. How can they prevent it? = Mr. Warp. They can come and vote against it. Those people, if they are opposed to the use of this building, they have the perfect right to come there, and any person attending that meeting, and moving that they shall not organize, and a majority of the people there supporting him, will prevent that organization. Mr. Racspatr. Oh, no. You can organize as a forum with 20, and the forum of 20 can contro] the situation, and the only way the people opposed to it could prevent the use of their property would be to give up every Sunday afternoon, and come and vote against it. Mr. Warp. No; not every Sunday afternoon. | Mr. Raaspate. Well, whenever you have a meeting. Mr. Warp. No; only at the first meeting. Mr. Racspate. And if they did not join it the first time, then the 90 could continue to use the property as they saw fit; is not that» true ? Mr. Warp. No. Mr. Racspatz. Let us be fair about it. 38523—16——4 ority has a will, it is up to them to 50 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Warp. No. . Mr. Racspate. Show me where, in the bill, the 20 can not organize that as they please. Mr. Warp. I cite the fact that under the laws which to-day pro- vide for the use of the building by the people of the community there has never been that kind of use by a small grou Mr. Racspate (interposing). I am not talking about that; I am talking about this particular bill. Mr. Warp. This is not a new proposition. It has been experi- mentally shown that the people of the communities desire it. Mr. Racspate. Then you are going on experiments elsewhere, rather than on this bill. Mr. Warp. Oh, no. Mr. Focutr. Mr. Ward, are you a resident of Washington ? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Focnr. Are you prepared to say that a majority of the citizens of Washington, although the case has been ably, if not brilliantly, presented by those who live in remote States or other States—but I would like to ask you if it is your opinion that a majority of the people of Washington feel so pressed for time that they feel they have to use Sunday for these meetings of various kinds, and enter- tainments in the schoolhouses; is that your opinion ? Mr. Warp. My opinion is that the desires of the people in any community Mr. Focut. No; I am asking you a direct question as to Washing- ton. This does not apply to any other city except Washington, and I would like to know whether that is the universal desire of the peo- ple of Washington. We will determine the question with regard to Pennsylvania and other States when we reach them. Mr. Warp. The Sunday question Mr. Focur (interposing). I want to ask you if you reflect the views of the people of the city of Washington, and do you say that they want these schoolhouses open on Sunday for entertainments and political meetings? Mr. Warp. In the first place, the expression has come from various organizations of various sorts Mr. Focut (interposing). Will you please be good enough to name some of those organizations that have asked for this enactment? Mr. Warp. Those who have favored this bill ? Mr. Focur. Yes. Mr. Warv. The Park View Citizens’ Association, which is greatly interested, because we hope next fall, when our building will be ready, that we will have this provision under which it may be used. The Mid-City Citizens’ Association Mr. Focur (interposing). I am speaking particularly of the Sun- day proposition; the rest we accept. I do not question that at all. Mr. Warp. In every case what they stand for is not whether the building sheuld be used on Sunday or not, but that the people in any community should decide that matter rather than any public body or other community. Mr. Vinson. Each forum will determine how it shall be used ? Mr. Warp. Yes. Mr. Focutr. And, as Mr. Ragsdale says, 20 people will determine what a whole community shall do. Mr. Warp. Has not that point been made clear? COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 51 Mr. Focur. Not to me. Mr. Warp. Just you go to a Michigan school-district meeting, and 20 people can go there and control the meeting if only 20 attend. When the school clerk calls a meeting everybody has the opportunity to go there, and if they do not come, of course they do not come. Mr. Crosser. Might not 20 men elect the gentleman to my left or myself to Congress if nobody else came to the polls to vote? Mr. Warp. Surely. Mr. Mapes. Mr. Ward, do you recognize any difference between the conditions here in the District of Columbia and the people outside or the laws outside? Do any of these State laws take out of the control of the board of education entirely—as I think the idea that this bill contemplates would do—the control of the school buildings after school hours? 2 Mr. Warp. So far as the designation of the time for the peoples’ meeting, the meeting of the adult citizens, and what they may do at those meetings is concerned; yes. Seven States in the Union do that, and it operates perfectly and operates without any difficulty. Mr. Marrs. So that the community could go there and leave the building in any sort of shape, whether it interfered with the op- eration of the schools for the education of children or not? Mr. Warp. No; it becomes the duty of the school board to pro- vide for janitor service incidental to the community meeting. Mr. Marrs. But suppose the community went in there and left the building in very bad shape; is there any way, under this bill, that the board of education or anyone would have the authority to say, “ Now, you must conduct yourselves properly and leave the build- ing in proper order, or you can not have the use of this building ”? r. Warp. There is no danger of any kind of abuse. Mr. Mapss. I know, but if that should be done, do you consider it any weakness in this bill that there is no ultimate authority to prevent that? For instance, you were discussing a while ago Mr. Warp (interposing). Well, the police would have the au- thority to prevent that. Mr. Marrs. Suppose there were a conflict of authority and sup- pose the board of education or the school authorities should say their schools were being interefered with, is it any weakness in this bill that there is no ultimate authority that could decide that issue? Mr. Warp. The ultimate authority is right there on the job, and he is very, very sensitive—namely, public opinion. If the school board could show that any building had been abused the school board would be upheld immediately and that abuse would have to stop. The fact is, as I say, that the buildings are not abused. The use of them tends to improve them. Mr. Mares. Had Congress, in passing a law, passed it in such broad terms that there would be nobody to look after the building— that is, no responsible authority to look after the building Mr. Warp (interposing). There is always the police authority. There is no suggestion that rioting should be allowed within this building or anything of that kind. There is always the police law. | Mr. Ragspatx. You do not mean that the police ought to come there and overawe this town meeting Mr. Warp (interposing). It has never been necessary. Mr. Racspare. But you are suggesting it. 5g COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Warp. The Congressman has asked about in case of a riot, or suppose the people did want to tear down the building. Mr. Vinson. Suppose a heated controversy should take place between two public speakers on a Sunday afternoon; suppose you had two speakers discussing prohibition, do you think it would be necessary to call in the police? Mr. Warp. Certainly not. Mr. RacspaLE. Suppose a community, comprised entirely of the negro race, should have a forum meeting on Sunday afternoon, do you think that would tend very much to the development of the com- munity’s interest ? Mr. Warp. The meeting of the parents of the children in the school, whether they happened to be white parents in a white school or negro parents in a negro school building, there is always a great restraining influence that absolutely works, and that is the fact that that building represents to them the interests of their children, and that applies whether it be a negro community or a white community. People will be more careful, will be more self-controlling in the use of a school building than they will in the use of any other public property what- soever. Mr. Vinson. Following the line suggested by Mr. Mapes in regard to the possible injury to the building, the laws of the District prohibit any public building being abused, and therefore it is not necessary to have any guardian to take care of these buildings during such a meeting of a forum. The law on the statute books insures to the people of the District that their property will be protected ? Mr. Warp. Surely. Mr. Racspare. The law automatically takes care of that, does it? Mr. Vinson. No; but the law-abiding citizens will see that it is reported to the police. Mr. Warp. The law is parentally responsible, and the community interests assert themselves, and that is exactly the importance of a community center. Mr. Racspate. What is your relation to the schools of the District - of Columbia ? Mr. Warp. I am one of the staff of the bureau of education, since the 1st of January, and up to the 1st of January I was engaged in the work of community organization in Wisconsin. Mr. Racspatn. You are now on the staff of the bureau of education ? Mr. Warp. Yes. Mr. Ragsparz. Are you on the salary roll of the Goverhweats Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Racspate. And the United States Government pays your salary ? Mr. Warp. Yes, sir. Mr. Racspats. Who appointed you, may I ask? Mr. Warp. Commissioner Claxton. Mr. Ragspate. What is your salary, may I ask? Mr. Warp. $1. Mr. Mapes. I will say that I did not have in mind what the mem- bers of the committee suggested, that the community was going to . tear down the building, or anything of that kind, but supposed they brought in a lot of dirt and littered it up, and things of that kind. That was what I had in mind. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 53 Mr. Warp. Yes. Mr. Mapes. But I am interested to know why the city of Rochester changed the system there. You said it was the practice in the city of Rochester Mr. Warp (interposing). Yes; that has been pretty extensively covered. Mr. Luoyp. Yes; it is in the record. Mr. Warp. And very well set forth by the president of the board of education, George M. Ford. I may say that the idea was not changed until a change in the party control. The board of education came to be not in favor of, but opposed to, the people using the building along the principle of this bill, and it was ‘because the movement could be blocked by a change of the spirit of the board of education that it seemed necessary to establish the right of the people to use the buildings; and it was on that ground that the bill was introduced in Wisconsin. LESSONS LEARNED IN ROCHESTER. [Address delivered by George M. Forbes, LL. D., professor of education in the University of Rochester, president of the Rochester Board of Education, and president of the New York State Teachers’ Association, before the First National Conference on Civie and Social Center Development, at Madison, Wis., Oct. Oreo lle The movement for the wider use of school buildings in Rochester was from the very beginning consciously and deliberately planned, as Gov. Hughes ex- pressed it, to “buttress the foundations of democracy.” It was, therefore, in the very broadest sense, educational and yet without any suggestion of the organization or atmosphere of a school. It was educational in the sense that where there is human aspiration and joint effort for better things—there is education. THE FOUNDATION OF THE SOCIAL-CENTER MOVEMENT. The very foundation of the movement was built upon the underlying assump- tion of democracy that the spirit of good will is in the average man, and that this spirit may become dominant; that this spirit is ethical and has two aspects; one is the consciousness of the essential equality of men as persons. Upon this is founded the sense of justice. The other is the consciousness of the essential solidarity of men so that they must realize the true good together. Upon this is founded the spirit of brotherhood. Democracy assumes that the average man will take this ethical attitude when rightly appealed to and when he is free to act; that is, it assumes that you can trust the final issues of human well-being to the sense of justice and the sense of brotherhood of the average man. This means that the average man is ethical in the very roots of his being, and capable of such ethical de- velopment as makes him worthy to be a member of the final court of appeal for justice and brotherhood. What is overlooked in this assumption is the established fact that absolutely no inborn endowment of a human being de- velops except in response to its appropriate stimulus, and that the selfish instinct, equally innate, may be so stimulated as to repress the ethical nature and leave it to atrophy and perish altogether. It is, therefore, an absolutely essential condition of democracy that the ethical spirit shall be aroused in the average citizen by appropriate stimulation. This can not be left to haphazard influences. The existing dominant influences are those which appeal to selfish instinets. Modern individualism with its rule of each for himself has ab- normally stimulated the spirit of unscrupulous competition on the one hand or monopolistic greed on the other. It has repressed and atrophied the sense of brotherhood and developed to an inordinate extent the selfish impulses. Under these circumstances the faith in democracy is futile unless there is a syste- matic appeal to the ethical spirit, the deliberate provision of a soil in which it can grow. 54 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. AN INSTITUTION OF DEMOCRACY NECESSARY. We are accustomed to say that social evolution has reached the conscious stage that we are advancing with increasing momentum, because we are in- telligently shaping social progress and not leaving it to the slow processes of nature; but what institutions are we shaping? Are they those which will cuarantee the systematic development of the communal spirit? Rather, we are now intensely occupied in forging the tools of democracy—the direct pri- mary, the initiative, the referendum, the recall, the short ballot, commission government. But in our enthusiasm we do not seem to be aware that these tools will be worthless unless they are used by those who are impelled by a sense of brotherhood. If the action of a democracy is to be but the resultant of a clash of selfish interests it is hardly worth battling for. It can give at best but a negative good. The truth is that we have developed every kind of institution and every form of education except the one fundamental kind of institution and form of education upon which the very existence of democracy depends. Every institution within the State, except the public school, is more or less exclusive. The family, the church, the political party, the social classes, the endless social groups and organizations—commercial, industrial, fraternal, narrowly social=-all are exclusive and have exclusive interests. They can never develop the ethical spirit as a community spirit, a spirit that transcends all such bounds and feels that its supreme membership is in the whole com- munity and that the greatest good is that which may be shared by every human being in the community. THE PRESENT PUBLIC SCHOOL INSUFFICIENT. The public elementary school, our only nonexclusive institution, can not ade- quately meet the ethical demands of democracy. Its limitations are too great. One serious limitation is the fact that it is confined to very immature minds, with very narrow and very simple experience. Another is that all school work is by necessity artificial, isolated from life, even from the life of the family, and so abstract. ‘The school, as such, is not an ethical community. It is not a democracy. It is an absolute monarchy. It is an institution framed to fur- nish every child with some mastery of the fundamental tools of civilized life— reading, writing, and the elements of number and measure. Hence, no matter how excellent the teaching of the elementary school, it is utterly inadequate ‘to develop the ethical attitude of the mature citizen to the problems of the whole community. It is utterly unable to fortify the child against the selfish appeals of real life. Democracy must have its distinctive institution for the stimulation and de- velopment of the community spirit. This institution must be free from limi- - tations; it must appeal to relatively mature minds dealing with the actual experiences of community life. Furthermore, it must be in itself a realization of democracy, not merely nonexclusive, but positively all inclusive, the one civic and social institution coextensive with the State which takes in every- body solely by virtue of his living in the community. ‘The relation of this in- stitution to the community life as a whole must not be artificial or abstract, but vital, exercising real initiative, dealing with actual problems, with a view to real betterment of community life. This is the institution of the social center, MOVEMENT CONSCIOUSLY DEMOCRATIC. If Rochester has any lesson to teach regarding the community use of school buildings it is because the movement in Rochester was from the very begin- ning consciously and deliberately founded upon these principles, and its su- preme aim was to arouse and develop the ethical spirit of the whole com- munity. The movement was, therefore, in the broadest and most fundamental sense educational, but it was in no sense the establishing of a school or the extension of existing schools. The most vital education, and preéminently the ethical education, essential for citizenship can never be achieved in the artificial atmosphere of a school. Hence the very deepest purpose of the movement was to make each neighbor- hood conscious of its civic functions and power, it was to make real democracy conscious and bring it into action. The idea was to establish in each community an institution having a direct and vital relation to the welfare of the neigh- borhood, ward, or district and also to the city as a whole. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 55 NEIGHBORHOOD CIVIC CLUB RESULTS. _ What was called the neighborhood civic club, composed of adult citizens, of all classes, parties, and shades of opinion, was the very foundation stone of the whole movement, and the first great lesson of the movement is that such organizations became actualities, held their meetings in school buildings, have had continuous existence for four years; that they did actually develop the community spirit in a most remarkable degree, and that they proved to be capable of discussing in the spirit of fairness and good will questions involv- ing the most extreme and radical differences of opinion; they proved not only willing but eager and insistent to hear both sides of the questions considered, and that they did not “lose their heads” nor were they “carried away” by radical utterances and appeals so as to take any hasty or ill-considered action. Not a single instance of such action can be cited in the history of some 20 civic clubs in as many different neighborhood school buildings. On the con- trary, on their initiative notable contributions to the welfare of the neighbor- hoods and to the whole city have been made. It was this spirit which pro- foundly inspired Gov. Hughes and led him to say, on the occasion of the second anniversary of the first civic club, ‘‘I am more interested in what you are doing here than in anything else in the world. You are buttressing the foundations of democracy.” There are a multitude of lesser witnesses who will testify that the atmosphere of these clubs and their associated activities gave them a wholly new revelation of community spirit, that here they felt for the first time the wonderful thrill of human brotherhood actually realized. ~The intensity of this feeling was illustrated by a prominent visitor from Buf- falo who remarked as he came out of a meeting, ‘‘I feel as if I had been in a religious revival.” FREE DISCUSSION MODIFIES RADICAL OPINION. As the movement developed certain very significant phases appeared. One of the most interesting was the influence of free and fair discussion upon radi- eal opinion. One of the most extreme socialists in the city publicly stated that his views had been seriously modified by the discussions in the civic clubs. Many others gave similar testimony. This result is the more surprising be- cause it was feared by many that these free centers of public discussion would be seized upon and controlled by radicals and extremists, and because radical opinion was freely expressed, opponents of the movement charged that they were so controlled, but no action of any civic club ever gave the slightest foundation for such a charge. On the contrary, the net result of the move- ment was to modify extreme opinion and bring it into line with rational prog- ress. The movement vindicated the opinion that the average man is a conservative or moderate progressive, and will take only one step at a time in the path of progress. - Another most interesting side light was the fact that the most congested quarter of the city, with a large foreign element in the population, and, judged by conventional standards, lacking in education, culture, and material well- being, proved to be thoroughly responsive to the civic spirit, and it was.a com- mon remark of the ablest speakers at civic clubs that they did not find in the twelfth ward, with its wealth and culture and large number of so-called ‘ best citizens,” anyhing like the civic spirit and breadth of view that was found i district No. 9, which was the most congested quarter of the city. : ALL CLASSES OF CITIZENS GET TOGETHER. Several of these clubs had such border-line locations that they gave a prac- tical demonstration of the fact that all classes of the citizenship could work together without a trace of class distinction. There was nothing in the experience of these clubs which so impressively brought home the lesson of real democracy, as the appearance of public officials in response to their invitations to explain their policies, their acts and the methods of operation of their departments. There was such full opportunity for questions and answers as resulted in illuminating for the average man the whole field of their work, and made him a much more intelligent and sym- pathetic critic of public officials. It vitalized for both official and citizen the theory that the officials were really servants and not masters and exploiters of the people. 56 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. NONPARTISAN POLITICAL HEADQUARTERS. Equally effective in a different way was the method by which these clubs made use of a political campaign. They invited able representatives of the various parties to present on different occasions to a nonpartisan body in a calm and dispassionate way, their reasons for their political faith. Nothing could more effectively emancipate the average man from a blind and harrow partisanship born of tradition and prejudice. THE DISTINCTIVE MARK OF THE ROCHESTER MOVEMENT. I dwell thus upon the life and functions of the neighborhood civic club be- cause it is the corner stone of all that is distinctive in the Rochester movement. It means that our public-school buildings, consecrated to education, may become the instruments of that deepest and most fundamental education upon which the very existence of democracy depends. This use gives depth, serious- ness, purpose, and unity to every subordinate use. All other clubs, the special women’s clubs, the young men’s clubs, the girls’ and the boys’ clubs are in- spired and shaped by the spirit and ideals of the neighborhood civic club, and for this reason they too become schools of the community spirit. They are recreational and educational in many other respects as well, but the civic spirit gives unity and purpose to the whole. This gives all its real initiative and power to the movement because it takes if up into the very life and purpose of democracy. OTHER USES OF SOCIAL CENTER VALUABLE. I do not wish to be misunderstood. Without the civic club the social center is well worth while. Its possibility of certain kinds of good to the community is inestimable. Apart from the civic club every school building should be a neighborhood clubhouse. No one could possibly estimate too highly the need in every neighborhood for a publié place of wholesome recreation, social inter- course, physical development, and the opportunity to combat the awful igno- rance of the proper conditions of wholesome living and social well-being through lectures by competent persons. These ends are amply sufficient to justify this convention, and support an increasing and widening agitation till every school building in this country is suitably equipped and open for this purpose without any other payment by those who wish to use it than the public taxes to which all self-supporting persons necessarily contribute directly or indirectly through the cost of living. I have seen a neighborhood of working people, characterized by vicious moral standards, chiefly because its young working men and women were driven to the streets and dance halls for recre- ation, undergoing complete transformation because the young men and women were permitted to use the school building under wise, friendly supervision and thus provided the wholesome recreation and the powerful moral impulse they sorely needed. BUT CITIZENS’ ORGANIZATION ESSENTIAL FOR DEMOCRACY. I only insist that while the social center may be an inestimable good, it makes no necessary contribution to the problem of democracy unless it is also a civic center developing the consciousness of communal responsibility and power. The social center may be an inestimable good granted to the people or provided for them, but it may not mean anything done by the people. New York City does a great deal for the people in its recreation centers, but there is practically nothing done by the people. If New York City had real neighborhood civic clubs in every school building, a new charter would not be prepared by a handful of men and then presented to the legislature without even saying by your leave to the people who were to live under it. What I wish to insist upon is that the neighborhood civic club, as embodying the spirit of real democracy, is, in my judgment, Rochester’s great contribution to the problem of the use of school buildings by the people. If Rochester’s social centers have had a unique enthusiasm and vitality, if they have gotten a unique hold upon the community, as I believe they have, it is because they have been also genuine civic centers inspired fundamentally by the civie spirit. No social center can meet the present crisis in the history of democracy without an organization open to all voters of the neighborhood and feeling the ultimate COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 57 responsibility of citizenship for the securing of the common welfare. An ore ganization in which every narrower interest of sect or party or class is Swallowed up in the consciousness that the interests of the whole community are Supreme and that the effort to realize them in the spirit of brotherhood is the supreme function and the supreme satisfaction of citizenship. THE RISE OF OPPOSITION. These experiences gave the movement an increasing hold upon the steadily growing number of people who came within its influence. The best possible test of this “hold” was its power to meet and resist opposition. This oppo- sition was intelligently focused upon the very nerve of the movement, the free discussion of the civic club. It developed early and took various forms, One form was the quiet effort of political forces to take possession of civic clubs in their very beginning by dominating the initial citizens’ meeting. Ane other was the sensational exploitation in the newspapers of the one or two cases of hasty or ill-considered remarks of speakers and the exaggeration and dis- tortion of any unusual incident, however innocent or trivial, in a way to excite prejudice and give an unfavorable impression. Another was the charge that the social centers were centers of socialistic propaganda, because Socialists were. given equal opportunity with others to present their side of questions under consideration. All these methods of attack were unavailing, except ag they aroused the prejudices of many who did not know the facts. OPPOSITION STRIKES AT APPROPRIATION, The last resort was to strike at the appropriation and attempt to influence the authorities to cut it out of the annual budget before the movement should gather irresistible headway. A crisis came regarding the third annual appro- priation and a determined effort was made to defeat it, but the movement was already so deeply rooted and the authorities were so flooded with petitions, committees, resolutions, and protests from those who had felt the power and who saw the significance of social centers that the officials were obliged to yield and make provision for another year. The amount appropriated, however, was not enough to pay the salaries of the force of directors, club organizers, librarians, ard gymnasium instructors for the full season. When the board of education announced to this staff of workers that through shortage in the appro- priation the season would be shortened, every man and woman engaged in this public service offered to, and actually did, give without compensation this work for the city, so that the social centers might be kept open and running to the end of the regular season. Such enthusiasm on the part of the staff of supervisors and directors, backed by such a flood of popular approval in the communities in which social centers had developed, would seem irresistible, and resort was had to a shifting of accounts in the tax budget. The appropriation for the wider use of the school plant had been made as a separate fund put into the hands of the school board and entirely distinct from the regular educational fund. Now, this fund was simply merged with those for other purposes, so that it was not known till too late that the appropriation for social centers had been cut down. Success in restoring the appropriation must depend wholly upon the initiative and leadership of the. federated civic clubs and the public sentiment they are able to bring to bear upon the present administration. SOCIAL CENTER RALLYING WORD OF COMMUNITY PROGRESS. Meantime the energy and persistence of the civie spirit which centers in this movement is the greatest hope for the future in our community. It is the one rallying point for the democratic spirit, which is bound sooner or later to triumph in its determination to restore power to the people. I do not know whether the varticular form of organization which I have described as a neigh- borhood civic club will prove to be permanent in our own or any other come munity, but I am profoundly convinced that unless this or something like this can be given the permanence of a settled institution, democracy as a permanent and effective form of government will be but the end of the rainbow of hue manity’s great hope and age-long effort, ever receding aS we advance. .— ” 58 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. FAITH IN DEMOCRACY INCREASED. In any ase the movement in Rochester has increased our faith in the com- mon man; it has demonstrated that if he seems selfish it is because he lives under conditions which bring no incentive but to look out for himself. It has shown most strikingly that the ethical-social spirit within the average human being springs to life and power in response to the quickening influence of the community challenge, and, finally, that he finds his greatest satisfaction in the expression of that spirit in action and is, in association with his fellows, our only hope of a trustworthy, final court of appeal for the realization of justice and progress in human society. 3 ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF MISS MARGARET WOODROW WILSON. Miss Wirson. I believe that this committee is losing sight of the main issue in asking personal questions, and in asking questions about whether 20 or more could bring about this organization. The ques- tion before you is whether you are going to establish the right of the citizenship to the use of the public-school buildings in the Dis- trict of Columbia, and that is the question which will come before the legislators of the States, and whether 20 or more will belong to the organization is neither here nor there. Now, that the question of woman suffrage is up it is not inherent to the question how many women will go to the polls and vote, but whether the women shall have suffrage. The question before you now is whether the citizens of the District of Columbia shall have the right to use their own public-school buildings as they see fit. I will yield to the opposition now. Mr. Luoyp. I have promised Mr. Blair, not representing either side but as president of the board of education, that he might have opportunity to explain the position of the school board for five minutes. STATEMENT OF MR. HENRY P. BLAIR, PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. . Mr. Buarr. Gentlemen of the committee, there has been some evi- dent misunderstanding of the position of the board of education with respect to this matter. We are neither for nor against the proposi- tion; we are engaged in an effort to administer the law as Congress has given it to us. What I have to say may in some respects perhaps favor the legislation which is before you, and in other respects may bear directly against it; but I wish you to have the situation before you, so that you may understand, to put it in the lawyer’s phrase- ology, what the old law is, what the remedy proposed is, and whether there is need of the remedy. There is some question, I find on looking into the statutes, as to the exact condition with respect to the use of school buildings until the Twenty-seventh Statutes, which would be about 22 years ago; — that would be about 1898—in that neighborhood—when, through some unfortunate use of the building granted to an organization Which was having a large convention or encampment here, Congress passed an act that thereafter the public-school buildings of the Dis- trict of Columbia should be used for no purpose whatsoever other COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 59 than those directly connected with the public-school system of the District of Columbia. That is found in Twenty-seventh Statutes, at page 546. With slight modification, which I believe came with some of the school-appropriation legislation, allowing us to use the buildings for supplemental educational purposes, which, if I recall the date, was about the time of what we call our organic act, of 1906, that has been the law in the District. of Columbia, and was until March 4, 1915, when the act which was passed by the last Congress, and which we have called the “ private use of the school buildings act,” for the promotion of which and for the success of which we are much indebted to Miss Wilson, became the law. That was approved March 4, 1915, and we have been operating under that law slightly more than a year. That law enlarges the former use of the public-school buildings so that the control of the buildings by the board extends to and in- cludes and comprises the use of the buildings and grounds for pupils of the public schools, and other children and adults, for supple- mentary educational purposes, civic meetings for the free discussion of public questions, social centers, centers of recreation, and play- grounds, and that is the situation with respect to the power and control of the school buildings at the present time. _I must admit that I have great difficulty in finding any necessity for the earlier sections of this bill. I fail to see why we can not, under the provisions of the present law, grant the free use of the school buildings for forum purposes as they have been defined and explained to us, and, so far as I know, there has been no discussion that has arisen with respect to the granting of this privilege, save over the one question, when we had an application from the Grover Cleveland community forum for the use of the building on Sunday as a regular meeting day—Sunday afternoon. They were permitted to use the building two Sundays because of the arrangements which they had made before the permission of the board was sought, and apparently they had assumed that they were entitled to it, and the organization meeting or the first meeting was permitted, and one the following Sunday; and then the matter was made the subject of a hearing before the board, and after a hearing, which occupied the time you gentlemen have already given to this—just about three hours—and after having heard everyone who cared to speak to us, the conclusion was reached that the sentiment of the community, as represented to us at that meeting and at that hearing, did not justify the granting of the permission, and, for that reason, it was refused. And I desire to state now that if it is the judgment of this committee that it is a question of what an individual group in some special locality of the District of Columbia wants with respect to the use of its school building on Sunday, the board of education is prepared to - grant that permit. be We believe the question of whether these buildings should be used on Sunday or not is a broader question, and that it is a question of what a community of 350,000 to 365,000 people wants; and knowing their sentiment and knowing their desire, and what they wish with respect to it, that that is the policy which we are called upon to fol- low, and that that is the source to which we are to look to guide our action in respect to granting this permission. If we are wrong 1n 60 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. that, the committee has only to say so or the community has only to say so, and the board of education is prepared to reverse its action. It has absolutely no pride or no personal policy; it is seeking to pro- mote no line of suppression, and no denial to the people of the buildings which belong to them, in any way. We have no such thought; but I say to you deliberately that it was the judgment of the majority of the board of education that the community, as a com- munity, considered as a whole, did not’ wish its school buildings opened on Sunday and, for that reason, the permit to use this build- ing on Sunday, which was the only request we have received for a permit for such use, was refused. Mr. Racspatz. Are we to understand from your remarks that you based your refusal upon the wishes of the people of this entire com- munity—the entire city ? Mr. Buatr. It was my understanding that the community as a whole—350,000 people—did not want their school buildings opened on Sunday. , Mr. Ragspate. You mean the entire District? Mr. Buarr. Yes. Mr. Raespate. You did not base your refusal upon the views of the people of that particular locality ? Mr. Brarr. This association, at that time, was asked how many members they had. They said from 200 to 250 members at that time. They are organized, and their constitution provides that until other forums are organized, any citizen of the District of Columbia may join their forum, and, if I am not incorrectly advised—and I do not want to make any misstatement, but I know you gentlemen will understand that it is difficult to hear—but my understanding, of the remarks of one of the speakers here this morning was that 63 of their 250 members resided within the sphere of the Grover Cleveland community. Mr. Racspate. About how many residents are there in the Grover Cleveland community 4 Mr. Buarr. I have never made any examination as to that fact, but I should suppose that that is a pretty well populated section. The Grover Cleveland School is at the intersection of Eighth and T Streets, NW., and there is quite a densely populated section through there, and I should presume that if you took the radius suggested by this bill, you would gather up perhaps 10,000 people, or perhaps not over six or eight thousand. Mr. Raaspate. So there are 63, out of approximately eight or ten thousand people? Mr. Brarr. Some such proportion as that, if I heard the figure correctly. Now, that is the position of the school board. We be- heve that this act of March 4, 1915, can be administered in exact > accordance with the wishes of this committee, and there is no dis- ~ position on the part of any member of the school board, whether they were in favor of granting this permit, or whether they voted against it, to refuse the public proper use of those buildings, or to seek in any way, or to claim or to pretend to have any control over those buildings that the law does not give them. Statements have been made in the public press that the attitude of the school board was the contrary. It is not the contrary. Our position is absolutely COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 61 what the law means and what the people want, and it is our obliga- tion to see that that is performed, and nothing else. Now, in this connection, in order to be justified or in order to be qualified to judge, to put it in proper form, what was being done, and what probable demand there was elsewhere, and what the gen- eral policy was with respect to this question of Sunday opening— because they could have had it on any week day by simply asking for it, and can have to-day or to-morrow by asking for it Mr. Vinson (interposing). They have that under the law, have they not? Mr. Brarr. There is no question about it. Pp can Vinson. It is not discretionary with the school board on week ays é | Mr. Buarr. I think not, sir; if they ask for the privilege. The privilege may be granted by the board upon such terms and condi- tions and under such rules and regulations as the board may pre- scribe. It says “may be.” Mr. Vinson. You mean it is discretionary ? Mr. Buarr. If the purpose of the organization came within the purview of the language of the act, we would regard that it was not a question of discretion, but that it was a right that they had to use it. We made inquiry, and we found with respect to this question of Sunday use, from 45 cities to which inquiries were sent, as follows: THE USE OF SCHOOL BUILDINGS ON SUNDAY. Inquiries sent to 45 cities; replies received from 40 cities. Questions 4-5: Do you permit the use of school buildings on Sunday? If so, for what purposes? Twenty-four cities do not permit use on Sunday: Balti- more, Boston, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Lowell, Lynn, Memphis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Nashville, New Orleans, Omaha, Oak- land, Philadelphia, Providence, Pittsburgh, Reading, Rochester, St. Paul, and Seattle. Two of these cities have given permits in the past, as follows: Roches- ter, for a Jewish Young Women’s Club; New Orleans, for a single lecture on civies. Six cities reply that question has not been up actively: Dallas, Detroit, Lowell, Lynn, Memphis, and Philadelphia. Sixteen cities permit use on Sunday, as follows: Birmingham, educational and nonsectarian Sunday school; Chicago, civic clubs, improvement clubs, ete. ; Day- ton, choruses, churches temporarily out of homes; Des Moines, Sunday schools and other religious gatherings; Indianapolis (partial), Armenian Society—one Sunday per month; Jersey City, educational, philanthropic, or civic; Kansas City, betterment meetings for colored race; Los Angeles, general educational purposes only; Newark, lectures, concerts, or other purposes; New York, social activities ; Portland, Oreg., religious purposes only ; Richmond, sermons and re- ligious lectures; San Francisco, free municipal band concerts; St. Louis, by special permit of commissioner of buildings; Spokane, literary, scientific, re- ligious, political; Trenton, religious and moral meetings. Mr. Buatr. Des Moines permits Sunday use of the schoolhouses for Sunday schools and other religious gatherings. I would like to see's permit issued here in the District of Columbia for a religious gather- ing. Mr. Vinson. What do you mean by that? Mr. Brarr. I mean to say that my judgment is that the sentiment of the community is unanimous against such use of the building, and if the board undertook to grant such a permit, and did grant it, it would result in the abolition of the board. That is my judgment about it. I may be entirely wrong; that is my personal judgment, I might say also. What the attitude would be in the case of a church 62 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, that was temporarily without a home, I do not know, but I mean for permanent use of that character. Now, we have been, with the utmost freedom of which we are capable, using all our publ school build- ings for public purposes, under the terms of this act and under the supplemental educational purposes clause, and I have had prepared a statement showing the community use of public school buildings, as it obtains to-day. | (The statement referred to appears in full below, as follows:) COMMUNITY USE OF SCHOOLS. WHITE SCHOOLS. Mothers’clubs and other parent-teacher associations _______-___________ 48 Citizens’ associations _— ee tt. 2 a 9 Other civic. and,.community. associations___2.._ 252 54 Membership represented by above associations________________________ 9, 286 COLORED SCHOOLS. Mothers’ clubs and other parent-teacher associations______________-____ 35 Citizéns’ associations or it age pte SL, os ge “¢ Other ‘civic and -ecommunity associations =~. 2 a eee 4 Membership represented by above associations_______-_-_-_-_ = SiS855 TOTAL FOR ALL SCHOOLS. Mothers’ clubs and other parent-teacher associations___________________ 83 Citizens’ associations ee 16 Other civic ‘and community associations_..-._U 25 _ eee 58 Membership represented by above associations__________-_-»______ 12, 641 Kinds of meetings included under the heading of “ Other civil and community associations ’”’: Branch public library, Peabody Library Association, Boy Scout organizations, dramatic clubs, girls’ athletic clubs, boys’ athletic clubs, alumni associations, social welfare clubs, Safety-First Organization, Bands of Mercy, Shakespeare Club, musical clubs, Girl Scout organizations, Community Singing Class, District Commissioner’s Orchestra, Audubon Society, Parliamentary Law Class, Social Center Basketry Class, Special Child Study Club, Modern Dancing Class, Rhythm Class, Orchestra Class, Story Club, Thrift Club, Social Welfare League, domestic science clubs, Reading Club, Study Club, Spanish classes, — Women’s Gymnasium Class, domestic art classes, milinary classes, Library Reference Class, Class in Dietetics. Mr. Buarr. We have gone as far as we felt we had a right to go for the purpose of giving to the community the fullest opportunity to use these buildings, to which they are entitled under the law. I want to say one other thing, and very briefly, if I may, and that is that the movement for the wider use of the school buildings origi- nated with the board of education more than six years ago, and I now read from the hearings on the District appropriation bill, briefly, for the year 1915, the hearings having been held in the fall of 1918 before the House committee. I will read extracts from pages 315, 816, and 317 of the hearings, and I will simply say, briefly, that it is set out there that two years before those hearings were had we had asked for the broader use of the school buildings, using substan- tially the same arguments which Mr, Ralston advanced this morning, namely, that the community had $16,000,000, approximately, tied up in its school buildings and was only using them 50 per cent of the time and that there ought to be a broader and wider use of a plant involving that amount of investment, and the result of that has been COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 63 the enlargement of the work along the lines I have already indicated to the committee. The board of estimate in its estimates transmitted this year to Congress, through the commissioners, in view of the act of Match 4, 1915, and with the certainty of a greater number of permits being asked and that we would need money for those purposes, made two requests of the Appropriations Committee, as follows: For purchase of fixtures and supplies for lighting and equipping school build- ings used as civic and social centers and for the extension of night schools and special activities, $3,000. : For janitor service rendered in connection with the use of school buildings for civic and social centers and for extending the broader use of the school plant, at a rate not to exceed $2 per person per night, $600. We are watching this movement grow with all the care and all the aution and all the attention that we feel we owe to the Congress of the United States, as well as to the community we are trying to serve, but we did not feel at that time, and we do not feel now that we are in position to say to what extent the taxpayers of the District of Columbia ought to be involved in the support of this movement. We are asking for the money just as fast as we think it is right to ask for it—just as fast as we think the work justifies it. If Congress thinks we are going too slow and wants to give us more money and broader powers, the board of education is willing to accept them, but we be- lieve that the way these movements should grow in a community is by the development of the community itself. We have had just two applications for forums in addition to the Grover Cleveland appli- cation. One was from the colored teachers out here at Bennings, and when we ran that down we found they wanted to organize a parent- teachers’ association, and they got the permit. We are finishing a fine new building, which will be ready in the fall, out at Park View, and they have already said to us that when they get the building they want to use it fer forum purposes, and we have not said them “nay,” and there is no one in the District of Columbia who has an idea of saying “nay” to them when the appli- cation is made. That is the situation, gentlemen; and now I am ready to answer any questions that I can. : Mr. Luorp. Your statement has been very complete. (The excerpts from the hearings before the subcommittee of the House Committee on Appropriations, in charge of the District of Columbia apprepriation bill for 1915, which Mr. Blair asked to have inserted in the record, appear below, as follows:) USE OF SCHOOL BUILDINGS FOR CIVIC PURPOSES. Mr. PAGE. There is another subject relating to the school buildings in the District of Columbia that is not embodied in this bill but which is being agi- tated a good deal; and I would like to have an expression from the chairman of the board of education and from the other gentlemen present who are inter- ested, if they care to express themselves at all upon that subject, and that is in regard to the agitation in favor of opening the schoolhouses for various other purposes. Mr. Newman. I am very heartily and emphatically in favor of it. Mr. Brare. The situation in the board is this: That we have considered that we have gone just as far as we feel we can properly go under the law as at present in force in regard to the general use of the buildings. We shall regret any legislation that will put the buildings out of our control, but we would wel- come, I think, as a board, legislation that would permit a broader and more serviceable use of the school plant. 64 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Mr. PAGE. Don’t you think that the opening of these buildings for certain lines of activity and for the meetings of certain organizations would be the opening wedge, or, rather, the first step toward a situation that would be very hard to control? Mr. Buarr. Not if the power were given the board of education to indicate the lines on which the buildings might be used and to control the lines on which they might be used. * * #* Mr. Srppons. I was going to ask Mr. Blair if the board of education did not officially recommend, a year or two back, with respect to a bill then pending, the enactment of a proposed law reserving to the board of education the authority to prescribe in any particular case whether or not the buildings should be so used? Mr. Brain. That legislation was before the board and considered, and that was the reason I spoke about what I suspected was the attitude of the board of education toward the entire matter. * * * Dr. Davipson. I am gratified to hear Commissioner Siddons express himself sO warmly in support of the movement to establish the open schoolhouse as the social and civie center of the District of Columbia. I believe there is no com- munity in the Republic which needs to have the schoolhouses opened to the extent this District needs to have them opened. All the arguments laid down can be repeated over and over again in many different phrases, but they all tend toward one thing, and that is the public schoolhouse as the social and civic center of the community makes for the development of broader and a better democracy. Such use is truly educative, not only in relation to the chil- dren who may be permitted to come when they are opened as recreation centers, but to the parents themselves, and in fact the whole community is benefited by the opening of the schoolhouse for such purposes. But it must be done under such restrictions as will insure the proper care of our school buildings; other- wise the schoolhouse might be diverted from its chief function, which is for the education of the children. The board of education and the school authori- ties in this city and elsewhere have. been insistent that when the schoolhouses are opened they shall be under the control of the board of education. I want to go on record as being in hearty sympathy with this movement to open the schoolhouses for their use under wise and liberal restrictions. Mr. PAcE. What is the custom in other cities? Dr. Davipson. Just as I have outlined it. They leave it to the board of education to establish the rules and regulations governing the use of the buildings, and provision is made that the organization using the buildings shall pay for the services of the janitor and for any extra expense that may be in- curred in the use of the building. In that way the extra tax or expense does not fall upon the school authorities. Mr. Davis. I think the idea of opening the schoolhouse to such uses is gen- erally prevalent throughout the West and Northwest. Mr. Brarr. We have a peculiar use for it here because we have practically no desirable public halls that can be used by reasonably small civic bodies for assembly purposes. Mr. Marrs. This law of March 9, 1915, did that meet the ideas of the board of education ? Mr. Buair. We were working for it; recommended it; worked for it, and I think that it would have failed of passage, however, if it had not been for the assistance which we received from Miss Wilson toward the end of the session. Mr. Mares. The specific question I want to get at—and perhaps you have answered it in a way which you think is definite—but do you think that is as broad authority as the board of education ought to have? Mr. Buiair. We think that inasmuch as that did not restrict the board, and gives to the board the power to regulate and control, to let the buildings under such rules and regulations as they may pre- scribe, that that is sufficient. If the act is to be amended in the form suggested in the pending bill on which this hearing is being held, then I have nothing to say, except to suggest to the committee COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 65 that here is a $16,000,000 plant which is being turned over for adult uses, and, if I may say it, our experience has not been entirely satis- factory as to the care which is taken of the buildings. If the build- ings are to be turned over for adult uses, and beyond our control after the organization has complied with the law—has been properly organized and formed—I do not find in it any provision which per- mits us to revoke a permit, once granted, or which permits us to cancel or to refuse the use of the building, so long as the organiza- tion has complied with the provisions of the law as to its organiza- tion and starting. Mr. Vinson. Suppose the bill were so amended in that respect as to give you the right, after the building has been used as a forum, and proper care has not been taken in its use, upon those facts com- ing to your attention, to revoke the permit; would that eliminate any objection the board has to the passage of the bill? Mr. Brarr. I do not think the board has any particular feeling, one way or the other, about the general proposition that is here involved. Mr. Vinson. Then the committee is justified in concluding that the board is absolutely neutral on the issue? | Mr. Buair. I am speaking for myself, personally. Mr. Vinson. I am asking you personally. Mr. Buair. So far as I am concerned, I am perfectly willing to accept the bill with some modifications. Mr. Vinson. Now, what are those modifications? Mr. Brarr. I have never seen the bill, as finally drafted, until about half-past 10 o’clock this morning. There is this substantial consideration with respect to the janitors. They are not compen- sated, and we have no power to compensate them, and there is a grave question if they are to be made to work seven days a week when the rest of the community works six days. The janitor service is com- pensated, under the provisions of the bill, but we have no right to compensate them now. We provide the compensation for them now by saying to applicants: “ Yes; you may use the building, if you will take up a collection of $2 to pay the janitor.” Mr. Crosser. This bill provides for that? Mr. Buarr. Yes. Mr. Vinson. You mean the regular janitors, during the week ? Mr. Buatr. Yes; but it does not settle the question whether these men, from November to April, although they are supposed to be on an eight-hour day, shall go to the building in some instances as early as 5 o'clock in the morning and in the majority of instances as early as 6 o’clock, and who are staying there until 5 or 6 o’clock at night, and, with the night use of the building that is now permitted, staying there until 11 or 12 o’clock at night; it does not settle the question whether those men, simply because they are going to get two or four dollars more, are going to be compelled to work at night. Mr. Vinson. Then, if it were discretionary with the janitors whether they should accept this additional employment with this additional compensation, that would eliminate the. objection you have to the bill? Mr. Buarr. If it were left in such a situation that we could compel the janitor to work—-we do not want to take one janitor from one 38523—16——5 66 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, building and put him in charge of another building simply for the purposes of the forum meeting. This apples now only to Sundays— what we are discussing. Mr. Vinson. You addressed your remarks a few moments ago to the man working late in the evening. Mr. Buatr. Yes. We say to these organizations, “ You must raise $2 to pay the janitor.” Mr. Vinson. That eliminates that objection, if that is provided for in the bill? Mr. Buarr. Yes. Mr. Vinson. Now, take it on Sunday; would it eliminate any ob- jectionable features in the bill to say to the janitor who works six days a week that it is discretionary with him whether he shall work for this additional compensation or to have the forum employ some one else to put the building in suitable condition for use Monday morning 4 Mr. Brarr. I do not think that the wise administration of school buildings would justify the employment of an outside janitor. Mr. Vinson. That is probably true. Mr. Brarr. Or to turn over the care of.a school building for any length of. time to some one who was not directly responsible, to who- ever was in charge of the building. Mr. Racsparte. Do you know, Mr. Blair, of any fraternal, social, or commercial organization that would permit the turning over of a vast amount of: property, such as is contemplated in this bill, to a minority anything like that ye oposed in this bill? Mr. Buair. I should say “no” to that; but I would be perfectly willing to make the fein myself, personally, if Congress wanted it. Mr. Vinson. You do not really believe that any harm would result to the buildings if this bill should pass, do you? Mr. Buarr. I do not think any harm would result from 95 or per- haps 99 per cent of the use of the buildings; but I am not justified in answering your question “no” from previous experience. Mr. Vinson. And that 1 per cent—have you any suggestion by which that could be cared for in the bill? Mr. Buatr. I want to say about this, that it is not a fair argu- ment against the bill. Please do not misunderstand me there, be- cause that 1 per cent of misuse may just as likely happen under the privileges for which we grant it on a week day as on Sunday. Mr. Vinson. J understand. Mr. Bratr. That is not a fair argument against the bill. Mr. Crosser. The bill really provides that the supplying of the janitor service shall be done by the board. Mr. Buarr. Yes. Mr. Crosser. It certainly provides a certain sum of money to be used as compensation for janitors already employed for additional service or for additional work. Mr. Brarr. The situation is such that there are some bufldinbe and some plants where we would not care to turn over—and under the bill we must turn it over, if we have designated it. There are some practical difficulties and objections, but those are not things that I would care to discuss with the committee, because if we are COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 67 to do it we want to work it out, and we will do the best we can to work it out; but there are practical difficulties, and if I may be allowed to say so, there is a very practical one in this executive secretaryship. There is not ony teacher in our school system upon whom a greater burden is cast than our eighth-grade teachers; there is not any teacher who ought to be relieved from work outside of what the school system alreidy casts upon her more than the eighth-grade teacher ought to be relieved; and yet this bill, in its present shape— and I am not criticizing it, because is seems to me a logical way in which to have it drawn, and I was present at the meeting of the American Civic Association at which this matter was discussed, and at which Miss Gale, if I remember ber name aright, read an origi- nal story which she had prepared for that particular meeting, show- ing how the schoo]-teacher was the natural and logical executive secretary, and the one who must be always selected and made secre- tary of these forum movements, whether she wanted to be or not, and that she had time to do all these things. which no one else in the cummunity could attend to, which is perfectly true in some in- stances—maybe it is true in a rural community almost always, but it is not true in our public schools in the District of Columbia; in the first place, our eighth-grade teachers do not live, but with rare exceptions, within the radius of the community over which they would be made executive secretary; they do have contact with the children of the community, and, through the children, with the parentage of the community, but they do not live there, and they must make a trip home after school, and then a trip back at night, and then another trip home late at night after they have done the very hardest kind of work in the school system all day long. They avoid that in the bill by saying that these eighth-grade teachers may designate some one. else. There are some very practical difficulties here; it might happen that in a given building you would not have the teacher who had the capacity to be an executive secretary, and yet you have to make the teacher in that particular building the executive secretary—the person who really is responsible for the strength and growth and development of the movement—-and yet that teacher must be made the executive secretary, although she may not have the capacity to be an executive secretary; or else we will have to take somebody that the forum says they would lke to have made executive secretary, and the principal designates that person, and then into the custody of that executive secretary, foreign to the control of the board of education, goes the control of our school building for whatever time the forum is licensed to use it with the utmost freedom. Tf it were an established movement, if we understood it, if it were not experimental, if it had not been abandoned in one or two places where it has already been started, if it were a matter.that had been worked out, or if we had had an opportunity to take this bill and dis- cuss it and to look through it, and if our opinion had ever been asked on it by anybody, we would have been in a situation, then, perhaps, to have answered some of these questions as to the details of the bill; but the general proposition is and the attitude of the board 1s that if we are expected to administer this bill, or some similar bill, we 68 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, shall take it up in the spirit of being something that it is incumbent upon us to administer. Mr. Luorp. If we would ask you to do so, Mr. Blair, would the school board furnish us an opinion of the merits of this bill, and on the changes that might be made in order to perfect it, within a week ? Mr. Buair. We will be very glad to do so, sir, if it is asked. Mr. Luoyp. We would be very glad to have it. Mr. Bratr. We would much rather have the hearing completed, and then see whether it is desirable. Mr. Liuoyrp. The hearings will be completed, but we give you the leave to submit that, and that will appear as part of the hearing. Mr. Vinson. You made some statements a few moments ago in regard to the executive secretary that would be created by this forum, and stated that in some of your schools you may not have teachers competent to fill that kind of a position. Is the committee justified in concluding that you have teachers in the Washington public schools who could not perform the duties of an executive secretary ? Mr. Buatr. The committee is not justified in concluding that we have not a competent body of teachers, but it is a far different propo- sition from being the executive officer of a lodge or of a Sunday school class, or of an organization of any kind, or a church or frater- nal or beneficial organization—being a school-teacher in the eighth grade. Mr. Vinson. But are not the duties of a school-teacher executive in their character ? Mr. Bratr. Not of this character, however. Perhaps, however, I am not competent to answer that, because I de not know anything sbout what the duties of the executive secretary will be. Mr. Ragspate. In your various schools, I presume you have white teachers who would dislike to act as the executive secretary of negro meetings, have you not? Mr. Buatr. I do not think we should reach a situation where that would be possible; we would probably be legislated out of office for high crimes and misdemeanors. Mr. Racspaue. Yet, under the terms of this bill, that is possible? Mr. Buarr. I think that is true. Mr. Vinson. That is very far-fetched. Mr. Crossrr. Is it possible to have the teacher nominate some one to take her place? Mr. Buarr. Suppose there is no teacher in the building who is really competent for the position ? ) Mr. Crosser. What position ? 7 Mr. Buair. Executive secretary. Suppose there is no teacher in the building competent for the position of executive secretary—and my experience has been that anybody can organize, but it takes some- body who knows their business to be an executive secretary, and that is where the whole thing depends for its go. Suppose we have no teacher in a given building who possesses the qualities necessary to make a good executive secretary. Then, the nomination must be of somebody. either outside of the building or outside of the school system, and that person is the person who, then, under the terms of COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 69 this bill, becomes responsible, with no direction, no hold, no power to employ or discharge, but still the person in charge of the school building. : Mr. Crosser. All the executive secretary would have to do would be to engineer this meeting, and if the school board is only con- cerned with the children, what difference would it make to it what failures these organizations might be? Mr. Buair. I do not think, if the organizations are to be failures, that we should-have spent the time that we have spent on them already. Mr. Crosser. You are only concerned with the children ? Mr. Burarr. No; we are concerned, until Congress changes the situation—we are very much concerned with the administration of the buildings themselves—the physical plant. Mr. Crosser. Yes; but presumably the janitor looks after the actual physical condition. | Mr. Buarr. He looks after the cleaning. Mr. Crosser. I do not like to approach this from the standpoint of personalities, or what one man, broad minded or narrow minded, might do under the present terms of the law in using his discretion, but what do you think of the general principle involved in the bill that the people should be allowed to determine themselves when they ‘should use the buildings, not impugning your motives or your high standard of education, but just as a general principle? Mr. Buatr. My personal conviction about the matter is not of the shghtest consequence in the administration of this law. Mr. Crosser. But I want to get your views. Mr. Buarr. I am perfectly willing to give you my personal con- viction, if that is what you want. Mr. Crosser. Yes. Mr. Buatr. I was born in New England and I believe in the New England Sabbath just as much as I did when I was born, and that is an atmosphere I will never get away from until I am dead—and probably not then—but so far as the administration of this law is concerned my personal conscience has nothing whatever to do with the way that it should be administered. Mr. Crosser. No; but we are considering what the law is to be. Of course, you are to administer the law. ‘Mr. Buare. It is not a question of what I personally think about it—whether I would or would not join one of these forums—but it is a question of what the community of Washington, consisting of some 350,000 people, and not the Grover Cleveland school district of some 63 people, want done on Sunday. Mr. Vinson. Are you informed as to the opinion of all the people of Washington with regard to this matter / Mr. Buarr. As far as I have been able to learn. Mr. Vinson. How have you gathered your information / Mr. Buarr. By talking with my fellow citizens every time I meet them. Mr. Vinson. Do y®u think that is a proper way in which to reach a conclusion as to the feeling of a community, by just merely the statement of 3.000 or 4,000 people that you may come in contact with, on the question of how the Sabbath should or should not be con- ducted or observed # 70 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Buatr. The basis of this whole movement is the fact that the individual is to have his rights; that is what we have heard and had drummed into our ears for months while this thing has been under consideration, and I do not know any way to find out what an indi- vidual thinks except to ask him. Mr. Vinson. Ask him at a public meeting. Mr. Bratr. We had a public meeting. . Mr. Vinson. Do I understand, then, that you are of the opinion that the alls of the city of Washington are opposed to a forum of this kind being open on Sunday ? Mr. Brat. I do not know about a forum of this kind; but I do not believe the people of Washington, as a people—and T am ready to change my view if you can convince me in any practical way—but I do not believe that the volume of enthusiasm which is behind this movement amounts in citizenship to more than 10,000 people. Mr. Vinson. That may be true, because great measures oftentimes have not as much enthusiasm behind them as the Charlie Chaplin show has on Ninth Street Sunday afternoon; but can you say that the people of Washington are opposed to a public forum, where the public may discuss any public topic in the schoolhouse on Sunday ? Mr. Buatr. My present judgment is that the people of Washing- ton are opposed to opening their schoolhouses on Sunday. Mr. Vinson. For any purpose ? Mr. Buatr. For any purpose; and my judgment is subject to re- vision at any time that I can be convinced to the contrary. The Cali- fornia law has been quoted to you as a model law, and left here. Section 3 of that law reads: The management, direction, and control of said civic center shall be vested in the board of trustees or board of education of the school district. Said board of trustees or board of education of the school shall make all needful rules and regulations for conducting said civic center meetings, and for such recreational activities as are provided for in section 1 of this act; and said special board of trustees or board of education may appoint a special super- vising officer, who shall have charge of the grounds, preserve order, and pro- tect the school property, and do all things necessary in the capacity of a peace Officer to carry out the provisions and the intents and purposes of this act. So there seems to be some limitation on the free use of public build- ings, even in the State of California. Mr. Vixson. Just to get it into the record, I will state that there is some objection from some religious worshipers at Takoma Park against the use of these buildings, for fear that religion will be dis- cussed on Sunday there. Did you take those objections into con- sideration when you were reaching your conclusion ? Mr. Brarr. May I answer that? T have not a thing that I do not want to tell this committee. Mr. Vinson. That is what I have asked you for. Mr. Buair. We are told by the gentlemen who are organizing or who have organized the Sectarian. League that they are delighted with the prospect of this forum, because it is nothing in the wide world but what they have been conducting for 15 years in rented quarters, and they would like to get into a ‘school building. We are told by the gentlemen of the organization to which you have just referred that the Sunday question ought not to enter into the con- sideration of this matter at all. We are told by people of various COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, hit religious faiths—both sides of the same question—I have not found yet any people of any given religious faith who have not differed on this proposition, if you are going into the religious phase of the question. I have many of my acquaintances, whom I think are of limited religious belief, if I may put it that way, who have taken exactly opposite views of this same question. I am trying to get the sentiment of the community. . Mr. Vinson. You find that some people are objecting to it because they are fearful that religion will be discussed and some who are anxious for it because they think that religion will be discussed ? Mr. Bratr. The specific objection on the ground of religion—that is, that the forum might be used for religious purposes—has not vet come to my attention. Mr. Vrnson. Suppose it should be made so that the buildings could not be used for religious purposes; would the board of educa- tion then have any objection to it? Mr. Bratr. That question has never occurred to me, that the lan- guage of the act of March 4, 1915, would permit the use of these buildings for religious purposes. It says “the free discussion of public questions.” Now, religious questions have not occurred to me as “ public questions.” I may be wrong in my interpretation, but that thought had never entered my mind. I had not supposed that -the particular point to which you are addressing yourself had entered into the matter in any way. Mr. Marrs. I want to ask you a question, Mr. Blair, in regard to this Sunday matter. This bill provides, I understand, that they could use the schools on Sunday for the promotion of education of the youth, and you say that objection is raised on the part of a large majority of the people of the District or of the city. Will you tell me for my own information how do you account for the way in which they take to this string of shows from Seventh to Ninth Street on Sunday ? : Mr. Buatr. I have not gone into that. I think a very small pro- portion of the community, when you take them as a whole, will be found on those streets on Sunday. Mr. Marrs. You are an old resident here, and have been here for many years, and you think that a large majority of the people of this city do not want the schools used for any purpose on Sunday ? Mr. Buatr. That is my present judgment. Mr. Luoyp. Gentlemen, the committee will stand adjourned until 10 o’clock to-morrow morning. | (Whereupon, at 4.45 o’clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow. Thursday, April 13, 1916, at 10 o’clock a. m.) COMMITTEE ON THE Disrricr oF COLUMBIA, Houst or REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, D. C., April 13, 1916. The committee this day met, Hon. Ben Johnson (chairman) pre- siding. Mr. Jonnson. The committee will come to order. beads Mr. Buarr. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a correction 1n connection with some of my remarks of yesterday. I was informed 72 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. immediately after the meeting yesterday that the Grover Cleveland neighborhood, according to the police census, comprised about 18,000 people. I said during the hearing 10,000 to 15,000. I believe that was incorrect. An examination of the rolls of this forum shows that there are enrolled at the present time 212 members from the neighborhood which this forum would reach. T said 63. I desire te make that correction. Mr. Luoyp. Can you give us some idea of the territory taken in? Mr. Bratr. They told me that it would be within 5 squares. ,That would mean, consequently, 21 squares—5 squares in every direction from the building. Out of 4,000 whites residing within that radius of 5 blocks from the Grover Cleveland neighborhood, 216 have re- quested the use of the building for the Sunday afternoon forum. The attendance at the forum at public lhbraries and museums has been from 500 to 1,000 people. Mr. Jounson. Do you imply by that that the rest are against it? Mr. Bratr. I simply desire to make this statement, that my figures given yesterday were incorrect. Mr. Lroyp. It was understood yesterday that the first speech made in opposition would be within reasonable limits. After that, as nearly as practicable, the speeches are to be not longer than 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF MR. ROY C. CLAFLIN. Mr. Jounson. Will you please give your name, residence, and busi- ness, and state whom you represent ? Mr. Cuariin. I have given that on a card to the secretary. I represent, I may say, the opposition to the bill. I investigated this question as a member of the board of trade committee on public schools. The Cramman. You may have given that information to the re- porter, but we want to know who you are. Mr. Cuartin. I am president of the Columbia School of Drafting, and I will say that I am also a teacher in the public schools. I am not here in the capacity of teacher, however. I am here as a tax- payer and a member of the board of trade. Mr. Jornson. Do you represent the board of trade? Mr. Criaruin. Not officially. I represent the opposition to the bill. Mr. Jounson. By whom were you designated as representative ? Mr. Cuarii. By a certain group of Dr. Jomnson (interposing). And of whom is that group com- posed ? . Mr. Cruariin. Various men who are to speak against the bill. Dr. Jounson. And who are they? Mr. Crartix. Perhaps Dr. McMurray can give me some assistance in this respect. Perhaps he can give some additional names. I will mention the names of those whom I can remember. There was Dr. Wilfley, Dr. Craft, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Lorch, Mr. Arnette, and some others whom I do not know. Dr. McMurray could probably give you additional names. I will say that IT entered on the consideration and study of this question in an entirely unprejudiced attitude of mind as the chair- man of the committee on public schools of the board of trade. As I say, I do not represent the board of trade officially this morning, ae COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. (3 as the board of trade has not taken action, although the committee has. The committee js opposed to this forum bill. I was asked to prepare a statement and to be ready to present it to this committee. _ We made a study of the so-called Johnson forum bill, and studied it particularly with reference to what the effects would be if put into practical operation, in comparison, especially, with the present law. The Cyatrman. Was your analysis of the bill based upon the amended bill or on the bill as it was originally drafted ? Mr. Crariuin. Do I understand the committee has made some amendments ? $ Mr. Luoyp. This committee has not, but those favoring the bill have agreed upon certain amendments. ia Mr. CrAriry. I propose to discuss the bill as it now stands. Dr. Jounson. You do not propose to treat the question of amend- ments at all? Mr. Criarir. I would be glad to do that, too. : Mr. Luoyp. I think it is safe to say that the committee will accept the amendments if it adopts the bill, because the principal amend- ment, or the only one that amounts to anything, is in reference to giving authority to the board. of education instead of to the com- missioners. Mr. Crariin. All right. I shall: proceed on that assumption. I shall have to say something of the bill-as it now stands. I wih take that into consideration. As I understand it, the only change is that it transfers the designation power to the board of education in- stead of leaving it with the commissioners. Judging from the splendid array of talent on the other side yes- terday, it would seem that there could not be any opposition to this bill. We have heard some very excellent speeches from prominent people, and we applauded them, because they enunciated democratic principles, in which we all believe. I contend, however, that the question before the committee is whether the Johnson bill should be made a law and whether it would be a wise law in comparison with the law that now exists. J contend that that is the point at issue before the committee. The splendid speeches that were heard yesterday were devoted to praising the forum idea in general and the right of the people to come together and discuss questions. I contend that is not the question to be settled, and therefore if this were a court all of those speeches, or practically all, would have to be ruled out of the evidence, because they do not go to the point at issue. Mr. Lioyn. I think you are mistaken about that. I think that ~Miss Wilson very forcibly brought out the difference. Mr. Crarurn. I said “ practically all.” Mr. Jounson. I suppose that means for all practical purposes. Mr. Crariin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jonnson. Your idea is that the bill is impracticable ? Mr. Crariin. My contention is that the arguments were not to the point at issue and therefore were impracticable. In other words, we are not discussing here the question whether the forum idea is a good thing or not, or whether the people have a right to use the schools for this purpose, but we are discussing the question whether this forum bill is going to be a better law than the one under which we are operating now. Therefore, I say that I believe the majority of 74 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. the speeches missed the point at issue, although they were splendid speeches. I will say now that we did not make organized preparation for this. Some of us happened to come together on this question. We are not prepared with a special array of talent. J might say, also, that I believe one reason why a great many do not turn out is that they feel that the bill will not come to a vote. Mr. Jounson. As I understood it, you said that you represented a committee of the board of trade, and now you say that you just hap- pened to come together. Mr. Cuaruin. The fact is that we happened to come Mr. Jounson (interposing). Is this just a “happening” organi- zation ¢ Mr. Cuaruin. I will say that we did not call in any spectal number of people. Mr. Jounson. How many happened to get together ? Mr. Criariin. I did not count them. . Mr. Jounson. Well, how many would you say happened to get together. Mr. Crariin. I do not believe I could say. Mr. Jounson. How many happened to come together at the time you indicated that they happened to come together / Mr. Cuaruin. There has not been any organization at all of the opposition, but we happened to come together yesterday at this hearing. Mr. Jounson. Who did? Mr. Cuariimn. The men that I know. Mr. Jonnson. About half a dozen? Mr. Cuariin. Perhaps more than that. Mr. JouHnson. Perhaps more than that? Mr. Cuariin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jounson. How many more than half a dozen ? Mr. Crarurn. I don’t know that I could say. Mr. Jounson. You know how many happened to be together. Mr. Criariin. I did not count them. I would say six or a dozen. I think that the burden of proof rests upon the proponents of the bill. They must prove that the forum bill is a desirable piece of leg- islation and that it will be a better bill or a better law than the pres- ent one. My argument will be to show that it will not be a better law than the present one and that it 1s not a desirable piece of legislation. I wish to say that I do not desire to have any remarks that I shall make construed as reflecting on the personal motives or public spirit of any of those who are in favor of this bill. I believe that they are taking this stand because they think this is best for the public inter- ests, and I give them credit for the work that they are doing along this line. They should be praised for that work. Of course, we all have, in a way, the right to discuss matters and express our opin- ion, so, I say again, that I do not wish any remarks that I may make to be construed as reflecting on the personality of these persons. These are merely my opinions. In investigating this question I went into the thing very thoroughly, and I have here a statement of the facts—a fundamental analysis of the bill—with certain conclusions. If you will permit me, I will read these. ~ COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 75 In the first place, I desire to call attention to the bill under which the board of education is operating at the present time. This was passed on March 4, 1915, and is entitled “An act to regulate the use of public-school buildings and grounds in the District of Columbia.” It reads as follows: Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the control of the public schools in the District of Columbia by the board of education shall extend to. include, and comprise the use of the public-school buildings and grounds by pupils of the public schools, other children, and adults for supplementary educational purposes, civic meetings, for the free discussion of public questions, social cen- ters, centers of recreation, playgrounds. The privilege of using said buildings and grounds for any of said purposes may be granted by the board upon such terms and conditions and under such rules and regulations as the board may prescribe. Sec. 2. That the board of education is authorized to accept, upon written recommendation of the superintendent of schools, free and voluntary services of the teachers of the public schools, other educators, lecturers, and social workers, and public officers of the United States and the District of Columbia: Provided, That the teachers of the public schools shall not be required or com- pelled to perform any such service or solicited to make any contributions for * such purposes: Provided further, That the public-school buildings and grounds of the District of Columbia shall be used for no purpose whatsoever other than those directly connected with the public school system and as further provided for in this act. Sec. 3. That all laws or parts of laws in conflict with this act be, and the same are hereby, repealed. . It will be noticed that this bill empowers the board of education to grant the use of the school buildings and grounds when it sees fit. At the present time there are over 100 associations, with a total mem- bership of between 12,000 and 15,000 people, using the school build- ings by permission of the board of education for various purposes, such as civic, educational, dramatic, musical, ete. This shows that the public is being given the full benefit of the privileges intended for them by Congress through the board of education. The Johnson bill, then, is not necessary. It was drawn and intro- duced as a result of the refusal of the board of education to permit the use of school buildings on Sunday when this was requested by a certain group of persons. Mr. Lioyp. Was this bill introduced before the trouble came? Mr. Crariin. It was after the board had been asked but before the board had taken action. Miss Wirson. It was introduced after the board had indicated that it would refuse permission but before it had done so. Mr. Cuarim. Mr. Ward can give us some information on that. Mr. Warp. In the recommendation of the superintendent, which was contained in the report of the board of education last vear, cer- tain additional legislation—— Mr. Liuoyp. You are now taking the time of Mr. Claflin. Mr. Warp. I want to answer your question. Mr. Liuoyp. We had better permit Mr. Claflin to proceed. He can answer. Mr. Mares. I would like to ask a question just at this point. Is it your understanding that this bill was the outgrowth and result of the action of the board of education in refusing the use of the schools on Sunday? 76 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Mr. Craruin. As I understand it, the direct cause was the refusal to let the schools be used on Sunday. Mr. Vryson. From what source do you get that information 4 Mr. Cuarir. From a discussion of the question with members of the board of education. Mr. Vinson. Prior to the passage of the act of March 4, 1915? Mr. Craruin. I am not talking about that one. Mr. Jounson. You said this act of March 4, 1915, was the out- crowth of that. . Mr. Cruarir. Then I made a mistake. I meant the pending bill. Mr. Jounson. I see. Miss Witson. May I make a correction? The legislation was pro- posed before the board had acted, but the action or legislation was the result of the refusal of the board. It is the opinion that such legislation is necessary everywhere, and that opinion is based on principle and experience. . Mr. Craruin. The final refusal of this request was based on the fact that the persons making this request failed to produce a legiti- mate showing that their demand was backed by the people generally. . In other wor “ds, the board of education was convinced after a public hearing on the “question that there was not sufficient demand for the Sunday use of schools to justify putting the public to the expense of heating schools on Sunday and requiring the janitors to work seven days a week without rest, besides innumerable inconveniences and expenses. The members of the board of education took this stand believing that they were best performing a public trust reposed in them, and they deserve the praise and gratitude of the public for fearlessly and courageously doing what appeared to them their duty to the people of the community in the face of opposition. The board of education has at the present time sufficient authority to grant the use of schools on Sunday, in addition to week days, if the public really desires it, as is now granted, and President Blair, of the board, has made it clear that any time the demand is properly demonstrated this use will be granted. It happens that the only request which has been made of the board for the Sunday use of schools was presented by only four persons, none of whom lived in the neighborhood of the school in question, and who, under the John- son bill, could not qualify for membership in that forum, and they did not even present a petition signed by any other persons backing up their request. Mr. Luoyp. Where did you get that information ? Mr. Criaruin. From the members of the board of education. T will ask Mr. Blair whether I am clear in that statement? Mr. Buarr. I did not hear the statement. Mr. Luoyp. State it again. Mr. Cuarurn. I said that it happens that the only request which has been made of the board for a Sunday use of schools was pre- sented by only four persons, none of whom live in. the neighborhood of the school in question, and who under the Johnson bill could not qualify for membership in that forum, and that they did not even present a petition signed by any other persons backing up their request. Mr. Buarr. The only communication, as I remember it, was from Mr. Driscoll. He was notified that there was to be a hearing. There COMMUNITY FORUMS IN: THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Bi were several speakers. Dr. Jackson happened to be passing through the city. He was interested in the movement and appeared before us. I am not sure just who was at the public hearing. Mr. Lroyp. Did you understand that Mr. Driscoll was representing the Grover Cleveland Society ? Mr. Buarr. Yes, sir. Mr. Luoyp. Then the statement would be incorrect that nobody was understood to be present except Mr. Buair (interposing). Those were people who appeared to present the application of the community itself. Mr. Jounson. How long have you known Dr. Jackson ? Mr. Buatr. I never saw him until that day. Mr. Jounson. You referred to him as passing through the city. Mr. Buair. Yes, sir; that is what he said, that he happened to be in the city. I understand that he is a prominent educator. Mr. Jounson. Do you know whether he has resided in the District of Columbia or not? | Mr. Buair. Not so far as I have any information. I do not know but that he may have been here this winter. Mr. Jounson. Do you know what portion of his time he spends here? Mr. Buatr. From a statement he made to that board it might be inferred that he stays in the District for a portion of the winter. Mr. Jounson. He was not called upon to explain his familiarity with conditions here ? Mr. Buarr. He explained his interest, I suppose, but only as he thought there was occasion to explain it. - The CHatrman. You do not mean to imply, then, that the oppor- tunity for gathering information as to conditions here was obtained upon this particular day when he was passing through Washington ? Mr. Buair. If you want my own impression, it is that Dr. Jackson was in no sense a resident of the District of Columbia and had made no investigation to ascertain the sentiment of the people of the Dis- trict of Columbia. | The CHarrman. And your impression further is that the only op- portunity to get information concerning the conditions here was upon that date when he was passing through the city ? Mr. Buarr. My impression was that he had made no effort to un- derstand local conditions, and that he was merely presenting his views with regard to the general proposition as a consideration and reason why Sunday should not be used as a forum day. Mr. Jounson. If he had opportunities to get information other than on this particular day he was passing through the city, you are misinformed ? Mr. Buarr. I do not mean to say that this was a day that we caught him between trains, or anything of that sort. I think per- haps he had been in the city a week or 10 days. Mr. Jounson. Your two statements that he was passing through the city did convey to me the impression that he had no other op- portunity to know the conditions existing here. | Mr. Buarr. I got the impression that he was addressing himself to the general proposition, to the extent to which he thought it was necessary to outline his experience at that time. 78 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Mr. CLaruixn. My impression was that there were only four per- sons. I do not know whether he represented an association, and I do not think that makes much difference, because there are between 6,000 and 10,000 people in this community. Mr. Mapes. Where does Mr. Driscoll live? Mr. Criariry. I understand that he did not live in the immediate vicinity of the Grover Cleveland School. Thus it will be seen that the board of education did not have suf- ficient grounds for believing that the demand was important. The following points tend to show that the Johnson bill is not desirable or fair: No provision is made either permitting the super- intendent of schools or the school principal, who are directed by this bill to assist in the organization of these forums on Sunday, or any other time they may choose to hold their meetings, to exercise his or her discretion as to whether he or she prefers not to engage in secular work on the Sabbath day. They would be compelled by law, regardless of their conscience, to perform this work on Sunday, if the Johnson bill were enacted into law. We are always raising the question of hberty. Therefore, I say that we should permit these people to exercise their discretion and conscience as to whether they want to work on Sunday. This bill forces them to work on Sunday. a Luoyp. What requires them to do that? . Ciarirn. In case the forum meets on Sunday the executive ceria is required to be present. Mr. Lioyp. That is one person who is required to be present. If he has any compunctions of conscience, he need not accept the posi- tion. CiaFrLin. The bill says that the board of education shall cirect Mr. Lroyp. If that person has any compunctions of conscience, he can so state. I am trying to impress upon you the idea that there i 18 nothing in that point. The only person affected by the matter is the executive secretary. It would not be much trouble for the executive secretary to avoid the possibility of having to work on Sunday. Mr. Cuariixn. How would you have him avoid that? Mr. Lioyp. By resigning his position. Mr. Cuaruin. Oh, I see. Mr. Jounson. Let me ask you what penalty this bill imposes on one who does not work on Sunday? Mr. Criaruin. I do not understand that it imposes a penalty. Mr. JoHNson. Suppose he does not have to serve ? Mr. Cuariry. The bill proposes he shall serve. If it does not, then the bill is not strong in its provisions. Mr. Jounson. I suppose the weaker it is the better it will suit you. Mr. Crariin. No provision is made giving the janitors the right to refuse to work on Sundays. They now work hard six days a week at small salaries. The Johnson bill would require them to work on Sundays, and makes no legal provision for their being paid anything at all for this extra work. I understand the proposed amendment takes care of the janitors so far as the salary question is concerned. While the bill provides that payment for janitor service shall be made by the board of education out of funds already appropriated, it has been ruled that this can not be done legally, which leaves no COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 79 provision for payment for the janitor service. An officer of the janitors’ union has stated that even if this provision were in the bill they’ would be very much opposed to working on Sundays. He con- tended that the janitors must have one day of rest. The janitors’ union has declared that the Johnson bill violates all the principles of unionism, and they have been backed up in their stand by the Central Labor Union. The bill fails to make qualifications as to the character of the applicants for use of public-school buildings. The commissioners are not permitted by this bill to exercise their judgment as to who shall be allowed the use of the schools. 'This may be an extreme case, but so far as the provisions of the bill go, a band of ruffians may demand the use of the school building, and the commissioners would be required by law to grant it to them. Then the principal of that school, even though she prefer not to associate with that group of persons, would be compelled by law to be present and assist those men to organize. It could easily happen, and probably would in some cases, that 20 or more men who are authorized to make applica- tions for the use of schools would be colored persons, and the prin- cipal might be white. The bill seems to be very lax in its pro- visions or in its lack of proper provisions. Mr. Lioyp. Will you state what part of the bill gives authority to ‘a band of ruftians? Mr. Craririn. I said it would be an extreme case, but I think, so far as the provisions of the bill are concerned from the legal stand- point, they could not turn anybody down. | Mr. Vinson. They could not turn the building over to anyone. Mr. Cuariin. Perhaps I had better take part of that answer back. As I understand it, they can meet there and organize. They meet before they organize. Mr. Vinson. You apprehend danger from a meeting of ruffians? Mr. Crarirn. I simply said that from a legal point of view that would be possible. Oi course, it would be an extreme case. Mr. Luoyp. It might be possible, but not probable. Mr. Jounson. Speaking from a legal point of view, if a band of ruffians came in and acted in a ruffianly manner, where would your police be? Mr. Cuarir. I do not believe the bill says anything about the olice. . Mr. Jounson. Never mind the bill. Is there not a law in the District of Columbia to control such a situation ? Mr. Cuaruin. I suppose the police would be on hand to take care of it; yes, sir. Mr. Jounson. Then your apprehensions on that score are un- founded, are they not? Mr. Cuarur. A band of ruffians may get together and they may organize for ruffianly purposes. Mr. Jounson. If a band of ruffians should come, as long as they behave themselves they should be permitted to stay, just as bad men often go to church and are converted while there. Mr. Crariin. Perhaps that would be a good idea. Mr. Vinson. Would it be a bad thing for ruffians to go there? That would have a tendency to benefit mankind. 80 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Cuarurn. I believe it would be a good idea. I am not oppos- ing the forum idea. I believe it is all right. It is a good idea. Mr. Jounson. What is the main point of your objection, then? Mr. Ciariin. I am giving them to you as fast as I can. Mr. Jounson. I mean the main point? Mr. Cuaruin. The point at issue is that the Johnson bill is not fair and is not desirable. Mr. Jonnson. In what respect ? Mr. Crariin. In the main respect that it does not give any discre- tion as to whether they shall meet on Sunday. I do not think it is fair that they should require that principals or superintendents should do this work when they have other duties to perform. The Cuarrman. I would like to ask you whether or not you think the act approved March 4, 1915, has worked well or not? Mr. Cruartin. So far as I understand, it has worked very well. Mr. Jounson. That bill does not mention Sundays and neither does the one under consideration at present. Mr. Crarurin. It says that in case it is desirable to use the schools on Sunday it can be done. This bill gives power to use them on Sunday. That is why we say this bill is now sufficient. Mr. Luoyp. It has that privilege. So far as authority is concerned they have that authority now, have they not? Mr. Cuartry. Yes. That is why I say the Johnson bill is unneces- sary. Me. Jounson. It is not bad, but unnecessary ? Mr. Cuaruin. Yes, sir. Mr. Vinson. In other words, you do not want any more legisla- tion on this particular subject; is that right? Mr. Cuaruin. That is partly it. I think the bill has other objec- tions besides that. I wish to call attention to the fact that in the Johnson bill the secretary of the forum may be in charge of the school building even during school hours and he need not be in any way connected with » the school system, and, therefore, not responsible to the board of education, which, however, will still be held morally and legally re- sponsible for the condition of the school building. Also, no pro- vision is made that the principal of the school shall have authority over his or her own building to compel order on the part of the boys or girls or adults who may be using the building for recreation and training and other activities. ~ Mr. Lioyp. Who is it that is not responsible? It says, designated by the superintendent, and yet you say he is not responsible. Mr. Cuartrn. My idea is that that principal, in all probability, would designate some one suitable to the forum people. Mr. Luorp. And that*person would be satisfactory to the principal and would be responsible to the principal and would carry out the will of the principal. Mr. Cuarnin. Morally, I think that is true, but I do not think that the bill provides that that should be the case. Mr. Lioyp. Perhaps it is not necessary to provide that. Mr. Crarnin. Well, that is another question that will adjust itself in the actual working of the law. The bill compels the board of education, the superintendent of schools, and the principals of schools to perform a great many addi- COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 81 tional and exacting duties. It is well known that our school officers have at the present time sutlicient to do to fully employ their time. Mr. Lioyp. You say that the executive secretary would have no authority or power. Under the bill he can direct the activities, and if there is anything going on that is wrong that executive secretary has the power under the bill to correct the wrongdoing. Mr. Craruin. My contention is that the school building will be in charge of the executive secretary at the time. As I understand it, the community center activities may be held at any time, and that means that they could be held during school hours. Therefore, they would, in all probability, respect the order of the school and there would be no trouble. My point, however, is that the bill should make sure of prohibiting the use of the school hours for recreational pur- poses, and so on. Now, all this additional work is proposed for what purpose? To grant to the people something they do not now have? Not at all. They already have the privilege of using the school buildings at any time they so desire, except on Sundays. The use on Sunday can be granted, and will be granted, by the board of education at any time there is a universal demand for it on the part of the local citizens. On this day those who desire to hold secular meetings for the dis- cussion of politics and other public questions now have the privilege, as is being demonstrated, of meeting in other buildings than school- houses, such as the Public Library. These other buildings are heated on Sundays anyway, and, therefore, why should the public be re- quired to pay the expense of heating their school buildings on Sun- day for the benefit of a handful of citizens? Mr. Luoyp. Why do you make a statement that only a handful of citizens attend ? Mr. Crariin. I say comparatively a handful. Mr. Luoyp. According to the testimony before this committee, the attendance has run from 500 to 1,000. If you have read the news- papers, why do you make a statement of that kind? Mr. Crary. I am referring now to the last two meetings. I un- derstand that about 200 people were present. Mr. Luoyp. Do you call 200 people a handful ? Mr. Criaruin. Comparatively speaking. | - Mr. Luoyp. Then all the churches in the city have a handful of persons in attendance. Mr. Craruin. Of course, I am not discussing the churches now. I am discussing whether we should have the schools heated on Sunday, and not the churches. No restrictions are written into the bill as to the conduct of the members of the forum. While we would not readily beheve that these meetings would not always be peaceful, at the same time we read in the papers of the recent rictous forum meetings in the schools in New York City. In one instance the members of the forum saw fit to rearrange the pictures on the wall of the school and hung an objectionable picture for the pupils to contemplate. This resulted, very naturally, in a fuss between the forum members and the princi- pal of the school. Mr. Luoyp. Where was that? Mr. Cuarurn. In New York City. 38523-—16—6 82 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Jounson. Not in the District of Columbia ? Mr. Craruim. No, sir; not in the District of Columbia. The Johnson bill does, however, provide that the board of educa- tion shall spare no expense in making things comfortable and con- venient for the members of the forum. As matters now stand, our local board of education prohibits smoking at the meetings held in the public schools and has the authority to make any other needful regulations. | Mr. Jounson. Is that literally true, that there is a provision in the bill that they shall spare no expense? Mr. Cuaruin. It is to the effect that they shall make all necessary provisions for the favorable use of the school buildings. Mr. Vrxson. Can they spend a dollar that the Congress does not give them for that purpose? Mr. Craruin. I do not know how Congress is going to appropriate. Mr. Vinson. Then why do you say that, if you do not know? Mr. Crariin. Because the bill does not say that they can not Dr. Jounson. Don’t you think, as an attorney Mr. Cuariin. I am not an attorney. Dr. Jounson. Do you not think, then, as a reasonable man, that they can spend only that money that is given by Congress? Mr. Crarurn. That is why I am arguing against the bill. Dr. Jounson. But you have stated that they are not limited as to expense. Mr. Cuaruin. That they shall spare no expense. Of course, they can not go beyond the appropriation. Of course, the board of edu- cation can not go beyond that. It 1s understood that they can not spend money that was not appropriated, but it says they shall spare no expense as far as the appropriation goes. The CuarrmMan. Then, you modify your statement to that extent ? Mr. Cuarurn. Yes, sir; I modify it to that extent. You will recall that the bill provides, in the next to the last section, that the board of education shall request Congress to grant money to cover the carrying out of the provision in regard to forums. I do not know whether there is any limit as to the amount they shall ask for. It is up to Congress how much it shall grant. That is why I say they would not necessarily be limited. The expense of each meeting, as proposed by the Johnson bill, would be $18 for secretaries’ salaries, besides the cost of heating, light- ing, and other items, which could easily run the expense for each meeting up to $25. These meetings can be held once a week or oftener, which would mean that the expense for one school would run to about $100 per month. Ten schools would be designated for forum use upon the passage of the Johnson bill. Thus the expense would be $1,000 per month. After the first year any number of schools may be designated. Assuming that only 25 schools would thus be called into forum service, and if the popularity of the forum idea is universal, that number of schools will be insufficient to accom- modate the meetings, the average expense would be not less than $2,500 per month, or $30,000 per year. That is for forum meetings only. Community center meetings may be held in addition to these only once a week, though they may be held every day, so far as the bill provides. This would run the expense to $60,000 per year, on ~ COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 83 the basis of 25 schools being used. The probabilities are that more than this number would be taken advantage of. Are the taxpayers as a community willing to bear this additional financial burden for the benefit of the persons who would want to use our schools on Sun- day? As a business proposition, do we as business men and tax- payers subscribe to it, bearing in mind that it is asked of us for « purpose that is already sufficiently served ¢ The citizens associations of the District of Columbia have been declared by our commissioners to be the proper medium for the ex- pression of public sentiment. Do these associations ask the tax- payers of the community to pay their expenses? They would be ridi- culed if they did. Is there any logical reason why a new set of organ- izations should be financed by the public to supplant these public- spirited associations which now serve the very purpose of the forums? That is what the Johnson bill proposes to do. ee I have endeavored to show that the so-called Johnson bill is not necessary, not desirable, not fair, not businesslike, and therefore not wanted. Mr. Jounson. Through Mr. Vinson, a member of the committee, Mr. C. C. Lancaster has sent to the committee a written communica- tion. Heretofore the committee has found it necessary to refuse to receive communications from Mr. Lancaster, and the committee has heretofore adopted this resolution: Whereas one C. C. Lancaster caused to be transmitted to this committee a cont munication which questioned the innate chastity of the female teachers and pupils of the local public schools by leaving the inference to be drawn from said communication that said female teachers and pupils could, under certain intimated pressure, consent to become objects of lust, and at the same time unwarrantedly reflected upon the integrity and decency of the Commissioners of the District of Columbia; and Whereas the committee directed the chairman of the committee to return said communication to said Lancaster; and Whereas said Lancaster thereupon caused another communication to be sent te the committee, which in substance reiterated the objectionable statements contained in the former communication, and in addition thereto was offensive: to the committee: Therefore be it Resolved, That the committee in the future decline to hear said C. C. Lancas- ter at any hearing to be held by the committee or any subcommittee thereof. In accordance with this resolution this communication will be returned to Mr. Lancaster. Mr. Cuartry. One more point. The point has been brought out heretofore that the people should have control of the schools and not the board of education. I contend that the people of the District of Columbia are represented by the board of education, and the fact that the people are back of the board of education was thoroughly demonstrated in ‘the early part of the session, when a certain bill came up for consideration and various organizations practically backed up the board of education. I believe that the board of edu- cation does represent the people of the District of Columbia, ancl. that it is officially recognized by Congress itself. 1 think the board is more representative of the people than the people of a particular community. In conclusion, I would like to ask this question: What 1s to be gained by this proposed bill that we do not have under the present law ? 84 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Vinson. What harm can this proposed bill do? Mr. Crarir. That is hardly an answer to my question. Mr. Lioyp. We are not here to answer questions. Mr. Criaruin. Then, I would like to make the statement that I can see no advantage whatever to be gained by the proposed bill. We would get nothing that we do not have now. STATEMENT OF REV. DR. JOHN McMURRAY. Dr. McMorray. I want to say to the committee that I have given this matter a great deal of study for a period of 20 years or so. I come here to oppose this Hollis-Johnson bill, even in its modified form, unless there are certain amendments making it more specific than it is at the present time. It is, in my opinion, altogether too general. In the first place, the mandatory feature is still there in regard to the 20 persons getting the use of any school building. I think that is a very objectionable feature. Mr. Lioyp. Would you want a less number than that ? Dr. McMurray. I do not believe that I would want any number specified at all. I do want to say that I believe if a public-school building is to be opened in any section at all, it should be opened by a majority vote of the persons in that particular section. We have, as we all know, a Government where the majority rules. If a public- school building is to be opened in a particular section, you want to get the people within a radius of half a mile to vote on this question. Tsay that it should be a majority of the people wholivethere. I believe that this should be expressed by some form of vote. I understand, of course, that the bill has been somewhat modified. I think it was a little unfair to modify it at such short notice without giving us more of an opportunity to adjust ourselves, but I suppose we will adjust ourselves to the modified form. Mr. Luoyp. You will accept that amendment ? Dr. McMorray. But still there is the objection to that provision | in regard to the 20 persons who may make this request in writing when you do not specify what kind of persons they shall be. You do not specify the class, kind, or race. That objection is still there. As I said before, if a public-school building is to be opened, I think it should be opened by a vote of the majority of the people within the radius prescribed there. The second feature is this community-center idea. That is open to abuse. Mr. Jounson. Will you please explain what you mean by your reference to race? - Dr. McMvrray. I mean this: The question was raised yesterday afternoon, and it can be raised again under the present bill, even in its modified form, that 20 persons, whether black or white, have a right to go and ask for a school building, whether that building is now occupied during the hours of instruction by white people or black. There is nothing in the bill, as I see it, to specify who shall ask for and who shall receive the use of the public-school building. Tt is all right to say that these things will adjust themselves, but we have not any positive assurance that they will adjust themselves in a democracy where everyone has a right to speak. Every person COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 85 is equal in a democracy, and I do not think that we can truthfully say that these matters will adjust themselves. We can not base such a statement upon anything that has happened in the past. As democrats, with a small “d,”’ we will ask for more things in the future than we have in the past, and there is no reason why a man with a black face should not ask for as much as a white man. Mr. Jounson. Do you object to his right in that respect? Dr. McMurray. I am not objecting to his right in that respect. Iam merely saying that in involves a grave question and brings about a very difficult situation. He can be one of the twenty to ask for the use of a public school building in the District of Columbia. Mr. Jounson. Would you fix it so that he could not be one of the twenty ? Dr. McMovrray. I would not say just that. I would fix it so that the number would be greater than twenty. I would fix it so that it would be a majority of the people within that radius of a half mile. I think a majority of the people within that radius should be the ones who should determine the use of the building. Mr. Jounson. Would you exclude anybody of that race? Dr. McMurray. You can not exclude any race in the District of Columbia. Mr. Jounson. Would you have the bill so framed ? Dr. McMurray. I would say that perhaps it would be a good idea to confine the use of the school building for forum purposes to the same class of people who use it during the day. Mr. Jounson. The same class or race? Dr. McMurray. The same race. Mr. Vinson. Might not the fact that it is limited to 20 serve to eliminate a mixed audience ? ; Dr. McMurray. I do not believe in the idea of allowing 20 people to force the District Commissioners or the board of education to open a public-school building to the people. I do not believe that 20 people should have the right to force it. Mr. Crosser. You say they have the right to force it? Dr. McMovrray. Under this bill they have. Mr. Crosser. Suppose I say that upon a petition of 20 persons the board of education shall submit a question to the people of a certain neighborhood as to whether or not they shall have an organi- zation, will that give them the right? ~~ Dr. McMorray. The bill does not say that. Mr. Jonnson. In my State of Kentucky we have had for a num- ber of years a law relative to selling intoxicating liquors. There has been a provision for a number of years in that law that a vote might be taken in any county whenever 20 citizens of any voting precinct presented a petition. Upon the same principle, would you advocate that those 20 people should have the right to procure that vote? Dr. McMurray. The 20 persons should have the right to petition and have the matter submitted to a vote for that particular section. Mr. Lxovp. Is not that the effect of the provision here? Dr. McMvrray. I do not think that it will work itself out im that way. It does not require, as I understand it, that the matter shall be submitted to a vote. ® - 36 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. Luoyp. These 20 persons may petition, and at the meeting every voter in the District of Columbia may appear. Dr. McMurray. He may appear. Mr. Luoyp. Well, there is no law that requires his appearance anywhere. There is no law that requires any individual to vote. In many localities there are a great many people who never vote.” Dr. McMurray. That is true. If you want to get an expression of the popular will you have to have a majority vote. We do not make laws very largely by the minority; it is the majority vote that prevails, of course. Mr. Crosser. Well, does not the majority determine whether or not there is to be a forum? . Dr. McMurray. I do not think that it follows necessarily. Mr. Crosser. The majority have an opportunity. Dr. McMvrray. Certainly. . Mr. Crosser. Would you-be in favor of disfranchising some of these citizens? Dr. McMurray. It does follow that the majority of the people ought to have the right to express the will of the people. Mr. Vinson. After 20 people in the community, within a radius of a half mile, petition the board of education, the board of education submits it to the people within a certain radius. Is not that a reasonable bill? Why does not everyone have an oppor- tunity to express disapproval, if it is desired to do so? Dr. McMovrray. Let me read from the Johnson bill: That whenever application shall be made in writing to the Commissioners of the District of Columbia by not less than twenty adult persons residing within a radius of one-half mile of a public-school building designated by the said commissioners for use aS a community forum, the said commissioners shall define and fix the territorial limits within which adult persons must reside to entitle them to membership and participation in an association of adult persons to use as a community forum a public-school building designated by the said commissioners for that purpose. It does not say that it shall be submitted to a majority vote or zinything of that sort. : Mr. Crossgr. Suppose they do not organize? Mr. Vinson. Suppose an invitation is extended to the people, and they come and say that they do not want to organize, but that they ~ want to do something else on Sunday? Does that kill the petition of the 20 people? ' Dr. McMorray. No, sir; because the 20 people have the right to ask for the use of the building, and it must be opened. Mr. Vinson. Just for that one meeting. Dr. McMurray. That may be the meaning of the bill, but I do not think it specifies that. Mr. Crosser. Would you be satisfied if it did specify that? Dr. McMurray. I think that it is up to the majority of the people to decide when a public-school building shall be opened in a particu- Jar section. Mr. Vinson. Would you be willing to submit the prohibition ques- tion along the same lines? Dr. McMurray. I do not think that this has any bearing on that question. I submit that you have here another proposition entirely, and that the proposition of prohibition is an altogether different one. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 87 If you can submit it to the people in the same way, I do not know that there would be any objection to it. However, that is not the proposition at all in the District of Columbia. Congress makes our laws, and we have to abide by the laws it makes. Mr. Vinson. Well, I want to get into the record your views. Are you in favor of submitting this question to a majority of the people in a given territory ? Dr. McMurray. Yes, sir. Of course, I think you are asking me a question that has not any bearing on this eaeeps that is under dis- cussion. If you ask me to state a principle, I will say that I think the majority should rule in the District of Columbia, and that we have a perfect right to control our own local affairs. Mr. Vinson. Following out that same theory, the people here, in your opinion, are entitled to a referendum on prohibition or any other legislation ? Dr. McMorray. I would have a referendum on every question, not merely prohibition. Mr. Vinson. That is not the point. Mr. McMurray. That is the point at issue in the District of Col- umbia. I do not think we should have referendum on one subject and not a referendum on all subjects. I do not think that you should single out one subject for referendum and ignore all the rest. This matter of Sunday forums and community centers is just as vital in the way of the welfare of the people of the District as are some of these other subjects. If you will allow all these things to be submit- ted, I think it would be all right. Mr. Vinson. In other words, you do not want to submit one unless you submit all? Dr. McMorray. No. Mr. Vinson. Are you willing to have the prohibition problem sub- mitted to the entire Nation? Dr. McMurray. IT am willing that prohibition be submitted. I am only saying that it is not fair to submit one subject and not sub- mit another one. Mr. Jounson. Suppose you should make all your laws for your- selves? Mr. McMorray. J think we should do that. J think that we are intelligent enough to decide the things we want. That is one reason I have been objecting to this community forum proposition as it is before us. I do not think it is a question that should be decided by 20 people. Twenty people have the right under the bill. Mr. Crossrer. Twenty people have only the right to have the ques- tion submitted. Dr. McMcrray. But your bill does not say so. It does not say so on the face of it. It does not state that in specific terms. Mr. Vrnson. Suppose we fix that. That will eliminate that trouble. Dr. McMurray. The second objection is the fact that there is a section which provides for a community center, which is different from a community forum. A community center is lable to abuse. There should be some restrictions placed upon the recreations and the amusements to be furnished in public-school buildings. I do not care to take up the tinie of the committee by offering illustrations of that fact, but there has been an abuse of public-school buildings when they were supposed to be used for that purpose. I can recite one instance. 88 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. It occurred in the town in which I lived before I came here. The public school was being used for dancing purposes.” The classes in — the high-school and even in the eighth “grade used it for dancing purposes. The dances were attended at first by members of the senior classes, but after a short time invitations were issued to out- ‘siders. You can see how that came about. Here was a young woman who wanted to dance with a young man who was not in the senior class, so she issued an invitation to the dance. Likewise, there were a number of young men who issued invitations in the same way, and it soon reached the point of abuse, because after a while there neces- sarily had to be a number of people who came in who should not have been there at all. There was no one to chaperon them, or anything of that kind. After a while, as I say, it grew to be a matter of abuse. Mr. Vinson. I suppose, too, that it would be likely to get into competition with the public dancing schools. Dr. McMurray. The janitor told me that the rooms of the school were used for purposes for which they should not be used. It seems that it was possible for the young men to get keys, and sometimes liquor was brought in there. Mr. Vinson. Haven’t you a law in the District of Columbia to prohibit the use of intoxicating liquors at public gatherings? Dr. McMvrray. Not yet. We may have after a while. Mr. Jonnson. Your recital of this instance is merely to emphasize the faet that there are exceptions to all rules. Dr. McMurray. I think that we should provide against these things wherever possible. In the third place, we might object to the forcing of the expense of carrying on these recreation centers and community forums upon the taxpayer. Mr. Crosser. If it is such an easy matter to get these keys, and so on, in the instance you referred to, what would stop them from get- ting the keys whether there is a community center or not? Dr. McMurray. I want to tell you that that is one of the reasons why we should be so guarded about the use of the public-school build- ings. If you teach the people that the school buildings belong to them and that ev ery man has a right to go into a school building whenever he chooses, I think we will get into trouble. A man gets the idea that he has just as much right as anybody else to go into a public-school building. He thinks that he has as perfect a right to go into a public-schol building as he has into his own home. Mr. Crosser. You are in favor of the strictest kind of local self- government, and you want to confine the use of these buildings to the people in the immediate neighborhood. Dr. McMurray. That may be true. Mr. Crosser. Your theory is that it is a local matter and that they should be confined to the smallest community. Do you believe in the public-school system at all? Dr. McMurray. I certainly do. Mr. Crosser. Do you realize that. in the city of Cleveland, Aaa is the city from which I come, that I pay, perhaps, for the education of children in a distant part of the city, probably 6 miles away? Do you think that is a bad thing? Dr. McMurray. No, sir; I do not. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 89 Mr. Crosser. Why do you believe in public education at all? Dr. McMurray. You force me to go into things that I do not want to go into or say anything about. If you want me to answer that question, I will say that I believe in a democracy with a small “d,” so far as the Government is concerned. I believed in a repre- sentative democracy, but so far as the action of man to man is con- cerned, I believe in pure democracy. I was about to say that if a pure democracy is to be desired, every man has a voice in the government. In a democracy, more than any other place, that voice should be trained to speak in the right way. Now, the public school is the place where that voice finds an opportunity to express itself in the right way. My objection to the community forum is that it allows to go into our public schools and discuss the fundamental questions of our Government the very people who have had no train- ing in democracy. Mr. Crosser. I thought that was a good scheme for the training of democracy. Dr. McMurray. It may be a very fine theory, but I do not think it works out so well where an untutored man from Russia may break into the forum. It is a very fine theory, but if you want to have democracy you have to get at it through the A, B, C, method. Mr. Crosser. Who shall pass judgment as to those who are en- titled to vote? | Dr. McMovrray. May I suggest to the Congressman that he is bringing up a question that is not before us? I think that comes up under the heading of immigration and the illiteracy test. You are raising that question now, as to who shall be admitted into this country. In other words, if we could have the old town meeting back again, there would not be any question at all about this matter. But we have the right to object to the coming of people here and having the right of free discussion in our public schools, who do not know the elementary principles of our democracy. In other words, we want to avoid incidents like that which occurred the other day at the Washington Irving School in New York City, where some one was anarchist enough to exclaim, “To hell with the Stars and Stripes.” Mr. Crosser. Would you prohibit the holding of public meetings because one man had said something that was not in accordance with the views expressed by another man? Dr. McMurray. I would not want to submit our people to the dan- gers that are likely to come as the result of expressions of people who do not understand our form of government. Mr. Vinson. Do you not find that the schoolhouse is the best place for the inculcation of true American ideals? Where can you find a better place than the schoolhouse? Dr. McMurray. I have given this question considerable study, and T think that in this Government of ours we find the highest type of democracy, and that is because we have a public-school system which begins with the child in the kindergarten period of instruction. That is the reason why we have the high type here. You do not have it anywhere else. Mr. Crosser. If that is true, why not extend the public-school sys tem to the heads of families, who are men of great responsibility, and 90 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, let them go there and exchange views and be instructed by one an- other ¢ Dr. McMurray. You have night schools at the present time, whose purpose it is to instruct. Mr. Crosser. You may feel perfectly competent to instruct me and 1 you. We should be pertectly willing to listen to each other. ‘Dr. McMovrray. Yes, sir; that is true. The public school has for its purpose the instructing of our tenes and girls. When I came before the board of education—if I may be permitted to state some facts that were brought out at that time—I stated that one reason why we are opposed to the Sunday forum was not necessarily because it was held on Sunday afternoon, but we op- posed the opening of the public schools, or public-school buildings, for this purpose, because that was the only matter up for consideration at that time; but I think the statement was made that we did oppose the Hollis-Johnson bill on other grounds, and one reason why we did oppose the opening of the public-school buildings on Sunday for these purposes was that it would interfere with our congregations at church, and things of that kind. We did believe in keeping the schoolhouses open all during the week, but we thought, and do think, that on Sun- day they ought to be closed, and the day, the Sabbath Day, given over to Almighty God. We think there ought to be some chance to get the people into the churches for the purposes of Sunday worship. There were other reasons—economic reasons—that we wanted to discuss. The Cuarrman. We have been taking up your time, Mr. McMur- ray. Every member of the committee has a perfect right to ask you any question he pleases, and you have been very kind in answering these questions; and the statement I made a moment ago is to indicate that we want to get through as soon as possible. Mr. McMurray. I want to say here that there is no class of people in the whole world who is more interested in the welfare of the peo- ple, who is more interested in the maintenance of a democracy, who is more interested in the rule cf Demos, than are the clergymen. You probably would not take that statement at its face value right off, in view of the general attitude toward the clergy; but, notwith- standing the jibes that are constantly aimed at the members of this profession, that statement is true. There is no class of people on God’s green earth more interested in the welfare of humanity than the clergymen. Sometimes we do things through mistake; sometimes we do things that do not seem to inure to the benefit of the people. But we have a whole-souled interest in the people. We do not get paid, for the most part, for the work we do. We get a small pit- tance, just enough to live on. The only reason we are in the work is because we have the interest of the people at heart, and working in the interest of the common people. That has been the history of the church ever since the foundation of America. The work we do assists in making the purest possible democracy. Democracy must not be based upon econemical principles only. There is something more to it than that. There is something more to life, especially to life in a demecracy, than merely getting a place to live in, to get food to eat, to get clothes to wear. There is seme- thing higher ‘than that. And it is for those higher things in life COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 91 that we, the clergymen, strive in our efforts to uplift the people. We maintain that a democracy can net reach its highest efficiency merely in cultivating the ability to accumulate dollars. That sort of effi- ciency alone “dees not make a democracy. That is not life. There is something more to democracy than that. something more than mere economic efficiency; there is what we may term the Christian de- mocracy, if you please. I am not insisting upon the word “ Christian,” because I believe the Hebrews have developed a democracy. What we are aiming for is the very highest Christian democracy. There is something more in this world than discussing questions of wages, hours of lab or, what to wear, what kind of ‘house to live in, or even the kind of government we shall live under. There are higher considerations than that. There are considerations into which the soul enters. The things that have to do and are connected merely with the body— those things alone are not all there is to discuss. There are other things, higher things. It is cur business, the business of us clergy- men, to stand for the things that dev elop the spirituality, the high morality, and the soul life of the system. That is a thing to be cultiv: ated. We can not reach the highest democracy until we attain that standard. First, we must recognize that as a standard, and then work up to it. I say that on Sunday we should turn to those things. Sunday is the day of all days when men should get together and learn about the higher things and worship the Giver of them. Tf we had our way about it, this day would be set aside when almost every man in the community would have an opportunity to come in and study these things of the soul, of the spirit, these things that make for the highest development of manhood and womanhood. We stand against any proposition that will lower the standard; and if, as we think, as we firmly believe, the opening of. the school- houses for a Sunday forum, to discuss all sorts of questions not connected with this higher life will result in a lowering of these standards, then, I tell you, gentlemen, we are against opening them for this purpose. Mr. Focnr. Is there anything here that prohibits you from doing that? Is there anything in this bill that prohibits you from dis- cussing those higher things? Mr. McMovrray. Yes. I will tell you. In the public schools re- ligion as a topic may not be discussed—by common consent. This is generally understecd. The Bible may be read, but its text may not be explained. That is generally understood. No tenets of Christian religion can be taught in the public schools at the present day. Now, gentlemen, what vou can not do in the public schools on a weekday you can scarcely do on Sunday. And, consequently, you have to cenfine the topics discussed in such a community forum to topics of a general character, topics touching upon the economic conditions of. life, topics of sociology, and other topics on the same veneral class of subjects. You can not touch upon religion at all. Mr. Vinson. I will state to you that some objection has been inter- posed here that religion will be discussed in the schoolhouses. Mr. McMvrray. That is just exactly it. We understand that re- ligion®can scarcely be discussed in our public-school buildings. The 92 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. principles of religion can not be discussed during the week. The only day in the w eek that the schoolhouses can be used for that pur- pose is Sunday. Mr. Focnr. There was a case up in Massachusetts where there was a riot at one of these public meetings, at one of these community forums, and it was necessary to call out the militia to suppress it. Mr. McMcrray. Yes. Now, gentlemen, you can not discuss these questions on Sunday in the public-school houses. You can not touch upon that subject in our schoolhouses. You-can not discuss certain ethical questions, because ethics is more or less concerned with re- hgion. Mr. Crosser. Then it would not be practicable to discuss any ques- tion that did not have something to do with chemistry or physics. Mr. McMvrray. Not necessarily chemistry or physics. It might be economics. Mr. Crosser. That is the highest form of ethics, in my opinion. Mr. McMurray. In your opinion? Mr. Crosser. Yes, sit. Mr. McMurray. Yes. Let me make this further statement, that the Nolan bill, which was discussed at the public forum in the public library last Sunday, calls for a minimum wage under the (Jovernment of $3 a day. Mr. Crosser. You can not say that there is any connection between that and religion, can you? Mr. McMurray. You will see, when I finish my statement, that there is a connection. It is more important that a man shall know how to spend his money than it is that he shall have $3 a day to spend. Very few people know how to spend. People have to be educated up to that. I might give a man $5 a day, and if he did not know how to spend it. it would be a curse to him. I believe in the contention of the Government clerks, and I be- heve that they should have a short workday. Mr. Crosser. What do you believe in? < Mr. McMurray. As a day’s work? Mr. Crosser. Yes. Mr. McMvcrray. S1x hours. Mr. Crosser. Six hours? Mr. McMurray. Yes; I think that is a fair day’s work. However, it might be six or seven hours. I say that if a man works six or seven days a week and six or seven or even eight hours a day, he still has a great deal of time to devote to the discussion of any topics that might be discussed in a community forum. To revert to the question I was discussing a moment ago: The man .who makes $3 a day may not know how to spend his money. He ought first to be taught how to spend what he has. The way to do this is through the influences of religion, in making men and women of the highest type out of our citizenry. That is a very 1m- portant question. Mr. Vinson. In connection with the statement you made just a moment ago, I want to ask this: Was it your idea that the man who works not over eight hours a day has time to discuss these questions throughout the week? a COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 93 Mr. McMovrray. Correct. That is exactly it. If a man will work only seven hours a day and sleep eight hours a day, which is a per- fectly proper limitation, that is 15 hours that he spends out of the day, and he has nine hours left from the workday in which to discuss matters of the price of bread and butter, economy, and social ques- tions, and therefore he does not need to take up Sunday to discuss these questions. Mr. Vinson. Do you think that a man should devote his whole day—his whole Sunday—to any particular thing, provided he de- votes a portion of the day in following Biblical instructions? Do you think he should be curtailed and limited to one particular thing? Mr. McMurray. What do you mean? Mr. Vrnson. Would not the balance of the day be of use to him— of benefit to him—if he learned discussions on the health regulations or learned the health regulations? , Mr. McMorray. I think that is an excellent thing, if he has noth- ing else to do on Sunday. Mr. Vinson. Some people work five or six hours a day, and others work seven or eight or more hours a day, and, consequently, all men do not have the same number of hours out of each week day to devote to discussions such as you have suggested should be conducted on week days instead of conducting them on Sunday. But suppose a man works like I do—14 hours a day—where will he get his time during the week to discuss these questions ¢ Mr. McMurray. I do not think that a man as intelligent as vou are, fitted to be a Member of the House of Representatives. needs to learn the health regulations or to listen to health lectures. Mr. Vinson. I think so. I know of no subject that would be more beneficial to people than to be well informed on questions of health and how to maintain health. | Mr. McMovrray. There is only one thing more important than that, and that is the care of the soul. Mr. Focur. You say that you have lived here a number of years? Mr. McMurray. I have lived in the District of Columbia two years. Mr. Focur. Are you well acquainted with the local conditions here ? | Mr. McMvrray. It is my business to study them. * Mr. Focur. But you believe these matters are local matters, and you are entirely satisfied with the bill in all respects except as to these Sunday meetings? Is that correct ? Mr. McMvrray. That is not what I am contending for. There are certain points here to be considered, and to be considered very carefully. I have been trying to mention those things, namely, the possibility of abuse of the school buildings through the simple re- quirement that 20 people shall have the right to ask for the use of a school building. There may be an abuse under that. There may be an abuse of the recreation places of the community. I think it is too much to ask that the taxpayers pay for these recreation places, and then turn them over on the request of so few people. I think the taxpayers ought to receive the benefit of these recreation places. _ Mr. Focur. What are your ideas as to the popular sentiment in Washington regarding the opening of the schoolhouses on Sunday for entertainment and political meetings? 94 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Mr. McMurray. So far as one can judge from a superficial ob- servation, and even from close study, from the study which I have given the matter, I think it is that we should not have anything any different from what it’ is at the present time. Washington is a place where we have no laws—no Sunday laws. We have no Sunday laws in the District of Columbia, yet our drug stores and hardware stores, and stores of that kind are closed on Sunday. Nearly all the people of the various occupations in the District rest on Sunday. You do not see much traffic in the States on Sunday mornings. You can go along the street and you will find that they are comparatively deserted. ‘There are no trucks in the street, or comparatively few— certainly only those vehicles which are required in the delivery of perishable goods, such as ice wagons and that sort of thing. By common consent, Sunday is made a day of rest in the District of Columbia. They take the first day of the week and say they will rest from their occupations. The chauffeurs, perhaps, those who run the automobiles for the wealthy people—not for the demos, be- cause the common people do not have the privilege of owning an automobile—they will be found out with the automobiles of their employers. The common people do not have automobiles in which to run along the streets of the District of Columbia.. The only people who work on Sunday, for the most part, are those who are required to work on street cars and vehicles. Everything in the District of Columbia practically stops on the first day of the week. That, too, in spite of the fact that we have no Sunday laws here. The labor unions require that a man shall work only five and one- half days a week. A man has Sunday and half of Saturday off as a holiday. If the people of the District of Columbia wanted to be practically consistent they would themselves work seven days in the week and not ask just those people to work on Sunday who are re- quired to take care of the school buildings which the people, or a small: proportion of them, want to have opened on this day of the week, this day of rest. I think the fact that they themselves rest on the first day of the week is indicative of the fact that they want that thing put into general practice. And, gentlemen, unless they ex-— press themselves in a strong manner in favor of opening the school buildings on Sunday, I do not think they ought to be opened. This was in the interests of the people who have to look after those school buildings, as well as in the interest of the public generally, and in the interest of a higher manhood and womanhcod through looking after the interests and the welfare of the soul. I submit that there is no strong demand for opening the public schools on Sunday. I think the president of the board of education intimated that fact, and the board of education in general feel that there is not any great sentiment in favor of opening these buildings, these school buildings, of the District of Columbia. I think that if the people generally wanted them opened for these purposes they would be opened. The CuatrMan. Wouldn’t you think that it would be better for the community, as far as morals are concerned, to have a good community forum than to have the theaters and shows and the public lectures that you find going on every Sunday in the theaters of this city ? Mr. McMurray. We are having both. If the theaters were closed on Sunday, then there might be some requirement for opening the public schools as a community forum. There is no law in the District * = COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 95 of Columbia to close the theaters. If there were I might say, then, that there ought to be something, perhaps, done toward opening the public schools as a public or community forum, the same as was done in Rochester. The conditions that existed in Rochester, however, do not hold true in the District of Columbia. In the District of Co- lumbia there are moving-picture shows and theaters, and all that sort of thing, open for the people on Sunday. They do not need the pub- he school buildings to use as a community center. The Cuarrman. Would it not be better to have this center than to attend the picture shows and theaters? A boy and girl are going to attend something on Sunday afternoon. The question is, What are they going to attend, the picture shows and theaters or a meeting at the public-school buildings? Mr. McMorray. I do not believe they need to go to either place. We did not have these places to go to when we were young. The Cuarrman. No: we could go fishing. if Mr. McMorray. We went to Sunday school, and did not think it a very bad place to go to at that.. Then there were interesting books to read. We also had opportunities for conferences, tcok walks, and things of that kind; and in that way we spent Sunday very profit- ably and very pleasantly. We thought we had a thoroughly pleasant Sunday out of it. J think it was just as pleasant as going to a picture show or something of that kind. If the Sunday forum could be used for teaching the truths of religion on Sunday afternoon, then, there would be no objection io it; but we can not do it. We already have here in the District of Columbia a public forum in the Public Library. I have attended the meetings. Not long ago there was a meeting there in which the conduct was most disgraceful. Two men on the platform, because they differed on a certain proposition, became angry and almost disgraced themselves. Last Sunday afternooon, at a meeting there, one or two people cried out, “ We understood this was a democratic forum, where everybody had a right to speak; but it seems that only one or two people are permitted to speak.” I will tell you of another case that occurred recently. Right close to me there was a person who arose and wanted to introduce some resolutions. He was told that this Grover Cleveland fgrum was unorganized, and, therefore, was not in a position to pass upon any public resolutions. It was stated, however, that as a public body they might pass upon them. If the idea is to have a democratic forum on Sunday, the proper thing to do, if the meetings are to be held in these public-school buildings, is to have the power lodged in the board of education to have people appointed to see that the meetings are conducted in an orderly manner; otherwise they will not work out satisfactorily. When we appeared before the board of education we asked that the Public Library, which is just as much a public building as are the public-school buildings of the District. should be handled in that manner. If you go out here and take the auditorium or some other hall in the city, you have a building which is not a public building ; and, therefore, you could not have the board of education appoint a committee, or something of that sort, to oversee the meetings. The board of education would have no jurisdiction. On the other hand, in buildings like that, the subjects are not limited, as they neces- sarily will be in the public-school buildings. 96 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Now, gentlemen, if the board of education opened the public- school buildings, they should have the power to close them if the people did not conduct themselves properly, or if those meetings were turned into such disgraceful proceedings as might well be imagined. If they are not going to be of any benefit to the com- munity, the board of education ought to have the power to close them. As soon as the people see that the board of education must allow the public to use these public-school buildings, then these buildings have got to be kept open evenings and on Sundays. They have got to be opened and kept opened. They must stay opened. That will be the result if you take away from the board of education the discretionary powers. Mr. Marrs. What would you say to a law that would say that the public-school buildings shall be open, and give the board of education control over the buildings and over the meetings, and to see phat order, decency, and cleanliness are maintained in the build- ing’ Mr. McMurray. They have that now. They do not need this bill to enable them to do that. They already have that power. Mr. Mapes. That is in the discretion of the board ? Mr. McMurray. Yes; they have that now—they already have that power. Mr. Marrs. Suppose you had a law that stated that the buildings should be open? Mr. McMurray. That they should be open the same as for public instruction during the week? Is that what you mean? Mr. Mapss. In effect this bill should give the board of education some control over the conduct of the meetings in the buildings. Mr. McMurray. That is all right. That is what it should be. That is not what this bill asks for. They have that power now. Mr. Mapes. They have the discretion to open them on Sundays or on any other day? Mr. McMurray. Yes. Mr. Mapes. But suppose the law said that the buildings should be open—made it mandatory—but allow the board of education to control the buildings and to control the order of the meetings—not to control the discussions, but to have cgntrol over the buildings? Mr. McMurray. There should not be any objection to that, pro- viding nothing took place that was objectionable. That should be in the discretion of the board. The board should have the power to see that the public did not mar or injure the property that the taxpayers had paid for in order to give the children of the District of Columbia an education. Mr. Marrs. Would you favor such a law if it did not exclude Sunday ? Mr. McMurray. I think it would be a fair proposition at the same time, with the present popular feeling in the matter and with the present popular clamor, to exclude Sunday from the operation of the bill. I think it would be better to begin by using the public- school buildings for six days in the week; then, if the idea grew and there became a strong, an overwhelming, demand to have the | buildings opened on Sunday, then, that matter could be taken up. In the meantime, however, I think that they ought to be kept closed on Sunday. COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 97 The Cuarrman. What objection would you have to making it mandatory six days in the week and permissible on Sunday ? Mr. McMurray. We have no objection to the matter as it stands at the present time. The Cuairman. As I understand it the board would consider it mandatory as far as weekdays are concerned, and discretionary on Sunday. Do you consider it practically mandatory as far as week days are concerned ? . ; 1 aa Dr. McMurray. I do not want to speak about the Sunday fea- ture, because there are others who are going to speak about that. That is the only issue at stake. The question is whether the Grover Cleveland public forum should be opened Sunday afternoon or not. That is the point at issue there. There are other points at issue in this bill. One of the reasons is voiced very well by a professor at Harvard University. In speaking of the community center, he says that whether or not it is right for a community of taxpayers to pay for the recreation of the adults in the community, if the public schools are used for recreation purposes, the expense should be borne by some organization. The schools could be used under rules and regu- lations adopted by some responsible body, such as the board of edu- cation. Unless you have some body which is thoroughly authorized to furnish topics for discussion, there is likely to occur some abuse of the privilege. I contend that if it is not permitted to discuss religion in the school buildings, it 1s equally objectionable to discuss subjects that engender in the minds of people irreligion. And right there, gentlemen, is one of the dangers of opening the doors of the public schools for the purposes of a public forum. Any- body has the right, as one of the public, to go in there and speak as he pleases; and by reason of the fact that a great many people would use the public-school buildings for that purpose, they would be in- clined to make statements and advance theories inconsistent with a republican form of government. The people who come over here, _ although intelligent, are not versed in the principles of democracy. They were borne under a different form of government and do not understand democratic principles. They do not understand the government of the United States, the principles upon which it is founded. } Now, gentlemen, the voters of this great Nation have delegated to you gentlemen, to Representatives and Senators in Congress, the duty of making laws, and they have also delegated to certain other persons, making up the executive branch of the Government, the duty and power to enforce the laws so made. Having delegated this authority, they themselves have given up that authority. They have not the right to make the laws; they have delegated that right and authority to you. They have not the right to enforce the laws that you make, having delegated that duty and power to the executive branch of the Government. Analogous to that is the delegation of authority by the people to the Board of Education of the District of Columbia in the matter of supervising and governing the schools and the school buildings of the District. Having delegated that authority, they are not in the position to come in themselves and exercise that authority. The board of education possesses that power. By insisting upon the rights of the individual, you will run into a 38523—16 ¢ 98 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, situation where society has fewer rights. When an individual, as a member of society, delegates authority, the authority which is resi- dent in him, to some set of men or body of men, then he has not the right to exercise the same authority. The people have delegated to the board of education the right to govern these schools. People say that these are public, these school buildings, and therefore are for the use of the public. . Now, the public have set these school buildings aside for a certain purpose, and delegated to the board of education the right of goy- erning them. Although these buildings are public property, no individual has a right to come in and deface this property, or any part of it, as he would his own property if he saw fit. It does not belong to ‘the individual. It belongs to the public as a whole. No one man has any more interest or right in it than any other man. Under the extreme theory that these public-school buildings are public property, and that any member of the public has a right to use them as he sees fit, an individual may go up to one of these school buildings and say that he wants to go in, that he has a right to go in, that ‘the property is public property, that he is one of the public and therefore has a right to go into the building. He says, “ T have a perfect right to go into the building, just as I would go into my own house. It belongs to me, and I can go and stay in here, because it does belong to me.” That is the thing that we object to. These buildings, it is true, do belong to the people; but the people have forfeited their rights and lodged the authority over them in the board of education. Inasmuch as the people are willing, and, by common consent, have forfeited their rights as citizens and dele- gated them and the responsibility of looking after these school buildings to the board of education, the board of education acts for them, and there ought to be, in accordance with the logic of the situation, such a governing of the public-school buildings as will be in accord with the wishes of the board of education. When that board ceases to represent the people as they want to be repre- sented, the people are in a position to change the board. At the present time the people, as I understand it, have reposed in the board of education, by common consent, the control of education ; therefore, the board of education has control of the buildings in which the education of the children of the community is conducted. This authority having been delegated to the board by the public, yo matter is one for the board of education to handle—not for the public. Mr. Focur. It is a matter of common consent, entirely, is it not? Mr. McMorray. It is a matter of common consent, yes. We have consented here in the District of Columbia that the education of our children, the administration of our schools, shall be reposed in the board of education, who shall have the right to hire the teachers who are fitted to give instruction to our children. The board of education has the right to say who shall teach the children. The responsibility is upon the board to engage competent teachers. The whole point of our contention, therefore, is simply this, that as we have delegated to the board of education the rights and privi- leges in connection with these school buildings and all matter con- nected with the education of our children, the public, individual COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 99 members of society, have no right to go in and usurp the places of — the teachers, who have been appointed by the board of education, to whom we have delegated the authority to hire teachers. The people in the vicinity of the Grover Cleveland School should not, therefore, have the right to go into that public-school building on Sunday and take over the province of the teachers whom the board of education has engaged for the purpose of giving instruction in that school. If the right is granted to the people in that vicinity to so use the Grover Cleveland School, the same right must be granted as to other schools. There can be no discrimination as to the Grover Cleveland School. It can not be opened alone, and all the others closed. If the right is to be given to the community as to any single schoolhouse, the right must extend throughout the District and be enjoyed by all the people equally. That is a fore- gone conclusion. It is not right to discriminate in favor of the Grover Cleveland School. The public having delegated to the board of education the right to govern the education of the children of the District, and therefore delegated to the board of education the right to supervise the school buildings of the District of Columbia, the people of the District have no right to say that the board of education shall not restrict the hours when the school buildings shall be open. If it were otherwise any individual—or, as provided in this bill, any group of individuals numbering 20—wwould have the right to require the board of educa- tion to have these school] buildings opened at all hours. The board might be required to have the school opened at 3 o’clock in the after- noon, or it might be required to have it open at 10 o’clock in the morning, or it might be required to have it open at 8 or 9 o’clock in the evening. There would be no limit. This being so, there would be nothing at all to hinder the preach- ing in those school buildings of doctrines inimical to the Govern- ment, to the principles government, to the principles of democracy which prevail in the United States. If these buildings are thrown open, without any rules and regulations, without any authority in any body of men such as the board of education to say when and under what conditions meetings may be held in these public school buildings, then there is no restraint; and there is no reason, under such a condition, why any doctrines whatsoever may not be preached in our public school] buildings, whether they be inimical to our form of government or not. They can discuss any subjects whatsoever. The CuHarrmMan. Don’t you think the community forum has that right ? ane McMurray. They have that right; yes. That is one reason why, where community forums have been held on Sunday afternoon, they have been found detrimental, and have been closed in some laces. 4 This is a matter, gentlemen, that has to be fostered. It is not a popular idea in any sense. You may be led to believe that it is through listening to the people on the other side of the question. It is not a popular idea here in the District of Columbia. People have to be trained to such a thing as this. The CHarrman. Most any kind of new movement has to be fos- tered. 100 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, Mr. McMvrray. That is true. There is no popular demand for this. The CuHatrman. Take the temperance prepesiticn. Mr. McMurray. Yes. The CuarrmMan. Or woman’s suffrage. Mr. McMurray. That is right. I would not make this point, gen- tlemen, if it had not been seemingly made apparent that the people are all simply rushing forward to demand that the board of educa- tion be required to open the public schocl buildings of the District of Columbia for the purposes of a public or community forum. At the present time the movement has not reached that point, by any means. It is backed only by very few. No great number of people are interested in it in the District of Columbia. It is simply ene of the whims on the part of certain people, of a certain class. I am sorry to take up so much of your time, gentlemen, but I want to make this one further point: The claim is made that every citizen of this country has a perfect right to ask that the public-school build- ings be opened for these purposes, simply because he is a citizen of the country and has certain rights of ownership in the buildings. Just because he has a certain right, as a merhber of the public, as an individual of society, a certain ownership in the buildings he thinks that he has the right to come in and require that these buildings shall be open for these purposes, especially if he is able to make a certain number of other people believe likewise. In a certain sense, our country is largely made up of foreigners, or people who have come in from European countries and who have not been trained in our form of government. Coming over here from governments that are more or less autocratic in form they do not understand the principles which underlie our form of government— a democracy. They are not in a position to discuss in public-school buildings, before our youths and such of our adult population as has not been trained in our form of government, the doctrines which he | has gained largely in his own country. A discussion of those doc- trines might be detrimental to our form of government. Now, as to the people who have been born in this country, they have had an opportunity to study our form of government and under- stand its principles, more or less. They are taught the history of the United States and the form of government of the United States in our public day schools and in our night schools. But for anyone to come in here and to discuss some economical theory without a full knowledge of democratic principles they do harm to others. It may be inimical to our form of government. In other words, we have to learn the fundamentals of our Government. We who have been born here have been in a position to learn them. But the foreigners who come in here do not understand our form of government and they are very likely to inject into their discussions on a Sunday afternoon things that are and will be against our Government. I am acquainted with the work in a great many places where there are community forums, and I know something about the results. They are held, for instance, in Ford Hall, in Boston, and that is controlled by the Baptist Central Union. In that forum, because it is con- trolled by a private organization, perhaps 40 per cent of the discus- sions hinge around religious and ethical subjects and 60 per cent are — COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 101 economical, social, and political subjects. That can be done there, because that is a privately owned institution. You can not do that in the public schools, because any topic which you might discuss may bring in the question of religion or a question of ethics which is intimately bound up with religion. Those things can not be dis- cussed.in our public schools. That has been settled. However, these people may say that the public school, being public property, is the property of the individual, and that, therefore, the individual has a perfect right to go into them and discuss any ques- tion he pleases, just the same as he would go into his own home and discuss any topic he pleased. He says that it is common property, that it belongs to the people, and that he has as much right, as one of the people, to discuss the subject in there as he has in his own home. Carrying the principle out to its logical conclusion, he would, under the science of democracy, in the last analysis, have such a right. But, gentlemen, when you admit that, you open the gates to what is lttle short of anarchy. When you do that, you do something that is akin to anarchy. You can not hinder me from going into the public schools, into the public-school buildings, under such a régime as that; and you can not hinder me from saying anything I care to say and anything that I would say in my own home. I can say that. in my own home [ have a perfect right to say anything I please; and, reasoning along the line I have suggested, if the public-school build- ing is as much mine as my own home is, then I have a perfect right to say in that school building anything that I would say in my own home, whether it suits the man who is sitting next to me or not, be- cause I say I have a right to, because this is my home, too. The CHarrMan. Suppose you both asserted ‘yourselves. You as- serted yourself about your idea and your neighbor asserted himself about his idea, and then another neighbor asserted himself, and none of you three agreed. What harm has been done? You could get from the ideas interchanged, from the differences that existed be- tween the several ideas expressed, some thought that might be bene- ficial to you. Dr. McMvrray. Yes, sir; but when I have asserted myself too strongly and the other man has asserted himself too strongly, 1t may come to the point of a fist fight. I havea right to. The CuarrmMan. You have not a right to a fist fight. You have no right to go beyond decency and order. Dr. McMvrray. Why not, if it is my home—if the public-school building is my home? The Cuairman. You have not a right to do that even in your own home, and you have not a right to do it in the schoolhouse. Dr. McMcrray. Well, I know they will deny that, because they can not see the point to which that leads; but nevertheless it is a fact. Mr. Focut. The question was raised the other day by one of my colleagues that no disturbances have ever occurred in these forums. Upon that point my colleague was mistaken, for I have here an edi- torial from the Boston Transcript, which is one of the most conserva- tive papers in rock-ribbed New England, commenting upon the riot that occurred in one of these meetings, and to quell which the militia had to be called out. That may be an extraordinary situation, but it happened. And as this point is of interest, I want to put this arti- cle—this editorial—in the record at this point. 102 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. (The editorial referred to is as follows:) [Boston Transcript, Tuesday, Apr. 4, 1916.] A DISGRACE TO MASSACHUSETTS. We are not much accustomed to lynch law in Massachusetts. The outbreak at Haverhill is therefore as surprising as it is disgraceful. Thomas F. Leyden, the man whom 10,000 rioters apparently sought to lynch, had license to speak in the Haverhill City Hall. He had therefore as much right to express his sentiments there as Gov. McCall has to address the legislature, or Bishop Lawrence or Yardinal O’Connell to speak to congregations in their respective cathedrals. Standing on his platform there, Leyden is entitled to the protection of the whole power of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and, if that does not suffice, of the United States of America. What he is going to say cuts no figure. He speaks on his responsibility, and may and should be held to a rigid accountability for any libelous, scurrilous, or seditious words that he may utter. But his right to speak and utter his opinions is absolutely sacred. In this State, which was founded upon the principle of freedom of opinion and worship, no more insolent outrage can be offered to the law than to question that right. FHvidently the rioters at Haverhill were bent upon wreaking personal injury, possibly murder, upon the man who intended to speak at the city hall. They did attack innocent men, and they attacked the houses and smashed the windows of ministers who were in sympathy with Mr. Leyden. If this sort of violence is not repressed and properly punished the lawless insolence that it represents will grow, and we shall have an end of the rights and liberties to establish which our fathers came into the wilderness. The Cuarrman. You have been in this country long enough to hear of some of the fisticuffs we have had in the House of Representatives. Mr. McMurray. Yes; but it is true that you could not have fisti- cuffs unless you thought you had a right to indulge in them. The CuarrmMan. The unfortunate thing in these matters is the ex- hibition of temper. That will occur in any kind of a gathering, whether it is a school forum or some other kind of body where the people assemble. That sometimes even happens in the home. Mr. McMovrray. That is right, sir; and you will bring me back to the thing I have been contending for, that you ought to have some- body—some organization—to teach you how to control your temper. The CuatrmMan. If you put that up to me, I would say that I think that is one of the things that you have learned from infancy. You learn it in the home; you learn it at Sunday school; you learn it from the pastor of your church; and you learn it from your civie organi- zations; and you learn it from the institutions of the Government in becoming a good citizen. Every good citizen of this land must neces- sarily learn it. Mr. McMorray. If what I have been saying has brought out that statement, I am very glad of it, because I want to make the point, and I have been making it, I think, that we must have our Sundays for training our boys and girls in just exactly the things you mention. Our boys and girls need this instruction, and they need their Sundays in order to get it properly. How can they get it if they go to these public-school forums and listen to discussions on economic questions? J think there will be a great deal of opportunity there for an exhi- bition of temper. The CHarrmMan. Your impression is this: That there would be more ground for an exhibition of temper there than in the places to which you refer ? COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 108 Mr. McMurray. Yes; because every man likes to consider that he has a right to do anything he saw fit to do there. When he is in his own place he has perfect authority. As the schoolhouse, under this system, would be his own, just as much as his own home would be, he would consider that he had a right to give an exhibition of temper. There is nothing to hinder a man ‘from going in there and taking off his coat and vest and making himself per rfectly at home. If we were going to say that the public school house belongs to every citi- zen, you are making a statement that it belongs to him, and that it is his just as anybody else’s, and that he has just as much right to do what his inclination dictates there as he would have in his own home. That is the situation. The CHAIRMAN. Don’t you recognize that there is a certain re- straint on a man ina case of that kind? Mr. McMorray. Who puts that restraint on him? The CHarrman. The law and his obligations as a citizen of the Republic. Mr. McMurray. Who makes the law and who backs up the law? The CratrmMan. The lawmaking body of the Government makes the laws, and the administrative officers of the Government enforce them. The administrative officers “ back up the law,” as you. say. Mr. McMorray. Where does the administrative branch of the Government get its authority? From the people and the good will of the people. We back up our law officers, the ones who execute the laws, and we also back up the makers of our laws: and if there was not anything to give us mora} backbone we would not know any- thing about these things. Our Government as a democracy would cease to have a meaning. The Cuamman. The exchange of ideas is one of the best means of maintaining a democracy. Mr. McMvrray. But these ideas must be of a high quality. The CHatrRMAN. Don’t you think we have sufficiently advanced in civilization to have high ideas ? Mr. McMorray. I believe that the highest type of democracy resides right here in America. This is the very highest type of democracy—the highest of all countries. We have that right here in America—right here in the United States of America. The next highest type of democracy resides in Great Britain. I think after that everyone will concede that possibly the next is France or Ger- many. What do we find? We find that ever since this country was founded we have laid great stress on moral quality, which we get from our Puritanical ideals. You talk about your town meetings—they had town meetings in the early days of this country, in New England, among the Puritans. They held the town meetings on week days, and on Sundays they spent the day in improving their souls. The people went to church on Sunday. There they listened to the inculcation of high moral lessons. That is the reason why rock-ribbed New Eneland, and the States near New England, have made it a point to observe the Sab- bath Day. They have done that until very recently. It is only within the last 25 years that we have been lax on Sundays. One of the reasons why we have become lax in this matter, I think, is be- cause we have had anywhere from 15,000,000 to 20, 000,000 of new 104 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. people coming in here. That is the cause of it. It is not an issue on the part of people who have been brought up in America, under American institutions. You will find this Taxness i in Sunday observ- ance greater in the larger cities than it is in the more moderately sized cities, greater in the moderate-sized cities than in the smaller cities, greater in the smaller cities than in the towns, and greater in the towns than it is in the country. In New York City, Chicago, and other cities like that, the laxness is much greater than it is in moderate-sized Washington. The CuarrmMan. This is the one place, too, where we have no Sun- day regulation. Mr. McMurray. Yes. The CHarrMan. Notwithstanding that fact, it is one of the best- regulated cities on Sunday that you will find in the United States—of its size. Mr. McMurray. Yes. Mr. Crosser. Is it not a fact that there is less of this element you mention here in Washington than in other places of its size? Mr. McMurray. It would be a downright shame if, with 40,000 Government employees, as I understand there are here, ‘who are men and women of more than average intelligence, who are required to pass a civil-service examination before entering the Government em- ploy, this were not true. I say, it would be a shame if it were not true. With people of that character in the city, I do net see why it should not be a well-behaved city. With all this intelligence, with this high degree of intelligence among so large a body as this popula- tion, I do not see how it could help being so. Mr. Crosser. Then why all this objection to opening the school- houses, if they are so intelligent? Mr. McMurray. The intelligent community does not ask for it. That is the point we are talking about. ‘That is the thing I am con- tending for. If you will get 51 per cent of the people of the District of Columbia to ask for this privilege, to ask for the opening of the public schools as a community forum, a community center, on Sun- day, then J am with you. In that case, I think you ought to have it. The CHarrMan. You say the intelligent people of the District of Columbia are not asking for it. Then, I gather, you claim the ignorant people of the District of Columbia are asking for it. This being so, if it is so, don’t you think it would be a good idea to have it, for the enlightenment of the ignorant people? Mr. McMurray. No; I do not think it would be a good thing. I would not charge any man with ignorance. It is no crime to be ignorant. It is only a lack of education. Because a man is ignorant, it does not necessarily follow that he is defective. Many men and women in this country are ignorant as to the institutions of this country. They have not read President Wilson’s history of the United States or any other history. The CrarrmMan. You say a great many of the people of this coun- try are ignorant of the institutions of this country. How can any man be a good citizen unless he knows the principles of this Gov- ernment? Would it not be a good idea to have a forum in which the principles of government are discussed, in order that these people who are ignorant of our institutions and the principles of our Gov- ernment may be informed upon them ? _ COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 105 Mr. McMovraray. If it is intended to teach lessons in United States history, then I think they ought to have a competent teacher, instead of letting anybody who likes to talk come in and undertake to give instruction in the subject. Mr. Crosser. Who is to decide his competency? Do you want to have a high mogul sitting up there to determine who shall be the instructor ? Mr. McMurray. Who determines who shall instruct our children throughout the week? The board of education. Mr. Crossrr. Do you mean to put the adult people of the District of Columbia on the same basis as the children, and have guardians appointed for them? Mr. McMurray. If you have not been instructed in the funda- mental principles of the American Government, you need an instruc- tor just as much as your child does. Mr. Crosser. You may be likewise in the same situation. There- fore why shonld you decide who shall be the instructor any more than I myself? Which one would decide this question ? Mr. McMorray. It is not a matter of my opinion whether you are ignorant or not. You yourself know whether you are ignorant or not. If you came to this country within the last year, from some foreign country, like Russia, for instance, where they do not have democracy, and where they do not know anything about it. but where they have a sort of autocracy, then, I say, you are not the proper person to give instruction in the fundamental principles of the Gov- ernment of the United States. People do not comprehend this point. Tt is an important point. We would not have a party leader who could control blocks of people if we had a thoroughly intelligent, thinking, educated citizenry. That is what is required in a de- mocracy. Mr. Crosser. The forum would do a good deal to remedy that. Mr. McMvrray. The forum does not remedy that at all. Mr. Crosser. There would be a discussion of principles that would be enlightening to those who were not well informed. Wouldn’t that be a remedy to some extent ? Mr. McMovrray. Why in the world should we permit a man to get up there and undertake to discuss these questions when he does not know enough about American Government, about American history, about American politics, and about the fundamental principles of American Government, about the fundamental idea upon which the American Government is founded? Why should we have our people going on Sunday afternoon to listen to a discussion of that sort, which is more likely to misinform than to inform? Mr. Crossrr. Do you mean to say that all the people at such a gathering, at such a meeting in this forum on a Sunday afternoon, would be ignorant of those fundamental principles? It seems to me that that is just the place where a proper notion of these principles would be given. The best way to disseminate the ideals of democracy is public debate, public discussion. Mr. McMurray. If, as I say, there is something more to be had than a discussion of mere economics, social questions, and so on, and if we can not discuss ethics and religion in the schoolhouses, what are we going to discuss that will be of benefit to those who are not yet 106 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. well informed? What good would it do, who would want to spend their time in going on a Sunday afternoon and hstening to a dis- cussion of the pork barrel? These people would not know what a pork barrel is. Before you began the discussion of it, you would have to tell them what it is. Mr. Crosser. I have not in mind a state of affairs where one man would get up and make a discussion of that kind. There would be others there who would differ with him. They would get at the truth by an exchange of views—at least, they would approximate it. Why should there be any authority, any body, any organization, any man to delegate any particular individual ‘to get up there and be the one speaker ¢ If you say that a single man should be delegated as speaker, how would you determine his qualifications? Would vou appoint him because he was a Democrat? Would you appoint him because he was a Republican? Would you designate him be- cause he was a Socialist? Then, if so, who would designate him? Under your theory, vou have to have somebody to determine this question. I do not say that; I do not believe it. I am talking about your theory. Mr. McMurray. You have to. have somebody. Mr. Crosser. The thing to do is to get together in this forum, and you and I put forth our ideas and debate them one against the other. The only worth-while citizen is the man who takes the trouble to go out and argue with such fellows as you. Mr. McMurray. I hope the gentleman will begin with the very fundamentals. I think I was interrupted on ale statement of the reason why we object to this proposition. One reason, of course, is that you have to make an appropriation for it. The people who enjoy the public- school buildings as the community forum do not meet the expense. There will be expense connected with this work, in keeping the buildings open in the evenings and on Sundays; and the janitor and the people who look after the buildings will have to be paid for their time. Mr. Crosszr. The taxpayers do not get any good out of the public schools. Mr. McMovrray. That is a mistaken idea. I think everybody gets benefit out of the public schools. I think that bachelors and spinsters get a good deal of good cut of them. There is not a man or woman in the country who does not get benefit out of the public schools, di- rectly or indirectly—and I think, generally speaking, directly, be- cause, through them, they become better citizens. One of the results of the public-school system is a better citizenship. Mr. Crosser. Does it not make better citizenship to engage in dis- cussion to try to inform the people? Mr. McMurray. If they are secure upon fundamentals. Mr. Crosser. Who is to determine that? Mr. McMurray. That becomes very apparent. Mr. Crosser. Who? Mr. McMorray. You know very well you have to have a standard. Mr. Crosser. If you have to have standard, who is going to de- termine that standard? Why should you know ‘better than I do what that standard should be? How can you do better than to let the COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 107 people themselves determine that? It is one of the fundamentals, one of the essentials of democracy that a majority of the people can get tegether and decide upon what they want. Mr. McMorray. After they have gotten together and discussed it. Before then you can not determine whether it is the right thing to do or not. After all, there is something to be said for the Almighty God who rules. The rules He has laid down are the best laws, the most helpful to mankind, the most useful in moral and spiritual uplift. I do not know of anything man made, any human institu- tions, any laws, that can approximate the ones He has given us. That is why we have with us to-day the clergymen. Mr. Mapes. It is a dangerous thing to get away from those standards. Mr. McMurray. Yes. Mr. Crosstr. In actual experience, would you give somebody the right to say what the standard is? Perhaps you will remember that in the University of Chicago they had some trouble over that very principle. Mr. McMurray. Over what? Mr. Crosser. Because they touched upon something that was not according to Hoyle—according to the views of the trustees. Mr. McMorray. What has that to do with the community forum? Mr. Crosser. That has a lot to do with what you have been saying, that somebody must decide what must be taught. Mr. McMurray. Yes. Mr. Crosser. It is a dangerous system to have somebody deter- mine whether I should believe in Methodism, Presbyterianism, or Unitarianism in the realm of religion; or a protective tariff or free trade in economics; or in Republicanism, Democracy, or Socialism in the realm of politics. I think it is a very dangerous proposition to let any man determine what must be the only thing to be taught. Mr. McMurray. The fact of the matter is that you are not going to get any closer to it by teaching a form of theoretical democracy. Mr. Crosser. Will you get any further by teaching a form of theoretical monarchy ? Mr. McMovrray. We have here a system of representative democ- racy. Do you think there is anything wreng with that? Mr. Crosser. I think there are a great many things wrong with it. I would like the people to have the veto power on all actions of the Representatives, so as to bring legislation closer to the people. Mr. McMurray. Who is to determine whether the present adminis- tration is a success 4 Mr. Crosser. The people. | Mr. McMourray. A majority of the people will determine that at the next election. Mr. Crosser. Yes. Mr. McMorray. And then certain standards will be approxi- mated. Mr. Crosser. What do you mean by that? 1 Mr. McMurray. Because these people have been taught certain | fundamental economic ideas in regard to the tariff and things lke that, and they come up to certain standards. Mr. Crosser. Who determines those standards? 108 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Mr. McMurray. If a majority of the people vote for free trade or a protective tariff because after certain arguments have been presented to them they agree, they determine that question. Mr. Crosser. The discussion is among the people themselves as to which is right or wrong. Mr. McMurray. Oh, no. Mr. Crossrer. You do not know of anything, do you, to prevent you and me from advising the multitude ? Mr. McMvrray. The most political meetings that I have gone to have been addressed by four of five men, and there has been very little opportunity for discussion. Mr. Mapes. I think this committee has turned into a forum right here. Mr. Focur. May I ask you whether this collection here is to bea sample of what the forum is to give us? [Laughter. ] Mr. McMorray. I have been talking an hour now. There has been no conclusion reached. The Cuairman. The members of the committee have been asking a good many questions, and you have not had much of an oppor- tunity to present your views. We are very glad to hear you, and shall be glad to hear you further. Mr. McMurray. Thank you. Mr. Marrs. When you say that no conclusion has been reached I gather that you would like the committee to.express an opinion, any opinion they may have reached toward your argument. Is that correct ? Mr. McMurray. No; not at all. That would not be democracy. That would not be proper. You ought to listen to all sides before you come to any conclusions. Mr. Mapsgs. Yes. Mr. McMurray. I believe that is all I have to say. The Cuairman. We are very much obliged to you. I promised Mr. Day enport. a Member of the House of Repre- sentatives, to hear him a few minutes just before the conclusion of . this session. He has something to say in favor of this bill. That shall not be taken off the time of those who are opposed to it, and I hope you will consider it no interference. STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES S. DAVENPORT, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA. Mr. Davenport. I have heard the objection of gentlemen and ladies who have been testifying, and have been very much interested in the different views presented with reference to the use of public school buildings in the city of Washington for purposes of a com- munity forum. I have heard those in favor of it and some of those who have opposed it. JI take this privilege of saying that, as I view the matter, the communities ought to have the right granted to them, and the privilege of using public buildings, the public schoolhouses, for the purpose of a community forum or community center. I have had some experience in this matter out in my State, in Oklahoma. I think the community forum is a great factor in the upbuilding of a community. This is particularly true when the COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 109 people do not have access to public halls, in which meetings of a communal interest may be held. I think, from what I know of the conditions here in Washington, that it would be a good thing for the people of the District to have such use of the public-school buildings of the District of Columbia. | T have been living in a new State. the forty-sixth State that came into our Union, and we have a statute upon this subject, which I am going to ask to have incorporated in this record. In a general way the statute provides that a district board, to be created for the pur- pose, shall have the care and keeping of the schoolhouse and prop- erty belonging to the district, and are authorized to open the school- house for the use of religious, political. literary, scientific, mechani- eal, or agricultural societies of the district. It also provides that the meetings shall be held under such regulations as the board may adopt. The Cuatrman. Is that the language of the act? Mr. Davenport. No. .The language of the act is this: Sec. 6461. Use of schoolhouse.—The district board shall have the care and keeping of the schoolhouse and other property belonging to the District, as hereinbefore provided. They are hereby authorized to epen the schoolhouse for the use of religious, political, literary, scientific, mechanical, or agricultural so- cieties belonging in their district, for holding the business or public meetings of such societies, under such relations as the school board may adopt. That is published in the general statutes of Oklahoma for 1908. The Cuarrman. Is that one of the few statutes that did not get into the constitution of Oklahoma ? Mr, Davenport. That is one of the good statutes that have been placed upon the statute books of Oklahoma and ought to be placed upon the statute books in every State in the Union. Mr. Marrs. From your statement, and from the law as you read it, I gather that the control is still left in the hands of the school board. Mr. Davenrort. The ministerial part of the law is up to the board. The board has charge of the properties and is responsible for its proper management; but the board, when societies apply to it for the use of the building for holding meetings turns the property over to an individual, the individual who is at the head of that society, and he becomes responsible for the management of the school build- ings. Mr. Mares. And if he does not properly manage it, what happens? Mr. Davenport. We have been in the Union since November 16, 1907, and although the schoolhouses have been used during all that time, the board had never had occasion to revoke the privilege of using a schoolhouse. . If the bill before the committee is enacted into law, I think the school board or any other ministerial power will have no occasion to revoke its order, because the citizenship of the District of Co- jumbia will be such a high standard of citizenship that you will have no regret, and no occasion to revoke the privilege of using the school- houses for this purpose. Next to the churches of our country comes the schoolroom, and next to that comes the communities and the citizenship that sur- rounds that schoolroom. If you expect the people to form a good, substantial society, either in city or country, you have got to give the people opportunity to become good citizens. If you pass this 110 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. bill and get this movement started in the District of Columbia you | will find that these small community centers will grow, and they, in turn, will merge or join with larger community centers, and thus there will be built up a common interest in this matter throughout the district. If you expect to raise the citizenship of the country to a proper standard, if you expect to raise the standard of citizenship in this city to the highest level, you must take some such step as this. In every city I have ever had the pleasure of living in or visiting there are hundreds of people who do not take advantage of the opportunity offered them to attend the churches. If I may be pardoned for saying so—I do it in all deference to the people of Washington—there are many people who are staying away from churches in this city simply because when they do go to church they must wait until other people are seated before they can get in and get a pew to sit down in. If you will give the people of the District of Columbia an oppor- tunity to meet in the schoolhouses, in the way anticipated, and thus give them an opportunity to organize literary and social societies, and so on, or any kind of an organization that may be called a com- munity forum—vyou may call it by whatever name you please—then you are going to do a great deal toward raising the standard of citizenship in the District. If you but give them the epportunity you will soon find that there will be a local organization built up here that will take an immense interest in questions of literature, ques- tions of a scientific nature, and all that sort of thing, and you will find that, in turn, these small units will be joined with other units, and you will continue to build up a society that every person in the United States will be proud of. Mr. Mares. Your bill, in force in Oklahoma, the statute of Okla- homa, has not worked any harm to the community out there, has it? Mr. Davenrort. No; it has not worked any harm. On the con- trary, it has done wonderful good, because it has given the com- munities an opportunity to organize and create societies; because it gives them the public schoolhouses to hold their meetings in, © where there otherwise would not be any halls available. Mr. Crosser. That is the cause of the political progress of your State. Mr. Davenport. Well, I won’t boast of my State. Mr. Mares. It affords the people an opportunity to exercise the duties of citizenship. Mr. Davenport. I have found that to be a working fact in my State. There is no State in the Union that is as great in school- houses as Oklahoma, according to population. One reason is be- cause on November 16, 1907, we did not have any schoolhouses, and we have built all of them since. The CuarrMan. I notice from reading casually the law of Okla- homa that it is practically the law of the District of Columbia to-day. Mr. Davenport. I have not compared the law here. I do not care what ministerial body you vest that power in, the workings will be the same. The Cuarrman. No question about that. All the parties here agree that it will be under the board of education. That is not in issue. Have you carefully examined the proposed law 4 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. lll Mr. Davenport. Yes; and I see that it is somewhat different from . our statute. The Cuairman. You think it is better than your statute? Mr. Davenrorr. I think it is to this extent: I think it is more specific and will prevent the board from taking arbitrary action. Mr. Crosser. Have you had any trouble of that kind? Mr. Davenport. No, sir; we never had any trouble in that. Mr. Crossrr. When the opposition party comes into power there might be trouble. The Crairman. It is not optional, but mandatory. Mr. Davenport. Yes. The Cuairman. And this statute ought to be the same way. Mr. Davenport. If a society desired to use the school building, I think it ought to have the right to use it, provided there was nothing in the purpose of the society or in its meetings to affect detrimentally the morality or citizenship of the District. Beyond that the board ought not to have any discretionary power. The board ought not to Be permitted to act arbitrarily in the matter. That would be my idea. Mr. Mapss. Under the theory of this bill who would determine who was going to be permitted to use the building? Mr. Davenport. I think the citizenship of the District is so high that there would be no difficulty in the matter. However, the school board might be charged with the responsibility of seeing that the meetings held in these buildings were a benefit to the community and not a detriment to the community, to the morals of the citizenship. I think the only way that any citizenship can determine whether a thing is being used properly or improperly is by attending a meeting and ascertaining from observation. The Cuatrman. It is. You say it will be determined by the citi- zenship. Would you have it determined entirely by the community ? Mr. Davenport. By the community embraced in the territory—the people who take an interest in the work. The CuHarrMan. Why do you say the people who take an interest in it? It isa group of people of the community, whether they take any interest in it or not. r. Davenport. No. In every community they ought to have a certain percentage of the citizenship who take an interest with ref- erence to public institutions and the educational interests of the community. I would leave it to them. There is always a class of people in a community that are reputable, and they can determine whether the society holding the meetings in the schoolhouses are reputable or not. If I may be pardoned right there, I would like to say that in each community there is a class of people who look after the morality of the community, not in any official capacity, but through their practice of persuading others to go in the right direction, and they perform a great service. For instance, in this practice of per- suasion that I have mentioned, I would say to those I met and talked with, “ We have a magnificent church at such and such a place, where we worship God on Sunday, and I would be glad if you can come around.” I would tell them that they would have an oppor- _ tunity to hear expounded the Gospel in a way that perhaps they had never heard it before. In that way I would bring them to traveling 112 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. i. the right direction, merely through persuasion, without driving them. . I think that. is all I have to say. The Cuarrman. We thank you. (Whereupon, the committee took a recess until 2 o’clock of the same day.) AFTER RECESS. The subcommittee assembled pursuant to the taking of recess at 2 o’clock p. m. : STATEMENT OF REV. WILBUR F. CRAFTS, WASHINGTON, D. C., SUPERINTENDENT INTERNATIONAL REFORM BUREAU. Mr. Crarrs. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I favor the use of public schools outside of school hours for the improvement of the intelligence and the increase of the unity of the citizens. I think the schoolhouse during the day is the best melting pot for the boys and girls of many races and many sects and of many classes. So the public schools might be made in the evening the melting pot for our adult population. T understand that the city of Berlin has only 1 per cent foreign- born population. The city of London has only 2 per cent foreign- born population. I have just been looking up the statistics in ref- erence to this country and I find that in this country 28 per cent of our people are of foreign stock, either immigrants or children of immigrants. There has been nothing like it in the history of the world. No other such problem ever confronted a Nation like ours. We have in this country 156 denominations. We have 34 different languages spoken. We have at least three very marked classes of population, in addition to these other lines of cleavage. We have a class we call capitalists, and they and their families make up what we call society. Then we have the other extreme, organized labor, and between the two extremes, between those two limits, there is a much larger population than in either of the extremes or both of them together. It is safe to say that neither the capitalists nor the: laborers, but the consumers are most liable to suffer when there is a clash between capital and labor. Europe is on fire with one hatred—race hatred. We have three hatreds here. We have the same race hatred here. When the Euro- pean war is over the feeling between Slav and German is likely to be intensified rather than lessened. We have here in this country class hatred, which has shown itself in battles much more extensive than the Mexican war, in Colorado, in Michigan, and in West Vir- ginia. Then we have sect hatred. We have three hatreds. . - We have to have a melting pot, where we shall melt not only the boys and girls who are early brought into one American citizenship but into ardent patriotism. No boys and girls are more ardent in their patriotism than those boys and girls of foreign parentage. We have to have a melting’ pot to bring into one American citizenship these manifold races and sects and classes. The public school is doing this work in a very effective way. It is my privilege to speak about four times a week in public schools. ‘ \ COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF\ “ea. 115 I count it the greatest joy of my life, and I should \. ei ek my time to it instead of doing other work. \ oO I believe there is nothing which is doing so much t, differences and to bring about a single American citizens, mingling of all sects and races and classes in our public sé In Hoboken, which is nearly entirely a German settlei barber, when his boy came from school, spoke to him in Ge The boy answered in English, and the father, shaking his raz ut him, said to Dr. Hurlbut, who was telling me the story: “I have to thrash that boy to make him speak German. He wanted a kite the other day, and he would not make it out of a German paper. He made it out of a copy of the New York Sun,” which was quite natural. We want to make the public schools of the country the melting pot of our heterogeneous population, so that we may have in the future a homogeneous citizenship. That is what the public schools are doing with the boys and girls. The question is what we should do with the adult citizenship never so much separated and apart as now. When I was a boy the foreigners coming into a new neighborhocd lived mostly with American neighbors. Now we find whole neigh- borhoods in our American cities which are made up entirely of foreigners and their families. They have their own churches and their own stores, and mingling with the foreign population the number of the native population is very much less than it used to be. There are many communities where I go in which foreigners live where I will not hear a word of the English language spoken. I have been in the city of New York where I would not hear a word spoken except the native dialect, except when I went to some place where there were some boys or girls who went to the public schools. Under these circumstances, which are not unusual, we need some place where these people can meet, so that they can be woven into one American citizenship. I believe a well-constructed plan of com- munity forums—community centers in the public schools—is the only " available means or the best means we have for bringing together the foreigners with the natives, reaching the people in the whole neigh- borhood, in something that is a true democracy, with a small d. So that I am very fully in: sympathy with an increased use of the schoolhouses, along the line of increasing, first the intelligence, and second the unity of our population. But it seems to me there are three principles that ought to be put into law, as well as laid down in the propaganda that these unselfish, ardent friends of a true democracy who are here. We are proud of the large amount of unselfish service given by the men of social standing and the women of social standing in the community. We think our President’s daughter as the Helen Gould of Washington in such work, as far as her service is concerned, and we fully appre- ciate her interest and efforts. As I say, there are three principles that as one of the propagandists of this movement I think I ought to call to the attention of this committee of Congress, in view of the fact, which ought to be put into this bill, if this bill is needed. The speech of Mr. Blair, the president of the board of education, indicates that everything is permissive and mandatory, except the question of opening the schools 38523—16——8 —s waMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. vn Sundays. There are three principles which ought to be taken into consideration. The first is that the use of the public schoolhouses shall be in ~ harmony with the purposes for which the schoolhouses were built; that is, educational purposes; that is, that the work shall be decidedly limited to what is educational. If it goes beyond education into rec- reation, that shall only be done if the recreation is educational, in accordance with the motto of Shakespeare, that motto which is so profoundly descriptive of the very finest education. All this education work, this particular work, should come under that motto. If we have recreation it should be a form of recreation that is not only a physical exercise or a social chat, not only a pleas- ant pastime, but it should be recreation that in some way harmonizes with the purpose for which the school buildings have been erected at the cost of the taxpayers. The use of the schools should be educational, and the law itself should hold it to that, or it should be held to that by the board of education, or whoever is in control of it. It is feolish for us to say the schoolhouses should be open for the people for any purpose. This Capitol Building is a public building. Can we go in there and hold discussions on any subject in the Hall of the Senate? The Senate Building belongs to us. Can we go into the Hall of the House of Representatives and hold discussions on any subject? The House of Representatives Hall belongs to us. But can we or anybody else go in there when those halls are closed and hold debates? The Pension Office belongs to us. Can we go there because we happen to be the owners of it and use it for any purpose other than that for which it was created? Can we go into the jail at any time and do what we please in the jail? The jail belongs to us. It seems to me there has been a great deal of nonsense spoken here in regard to this matter, although it was not intended to be that kind of talk, and I do not want to characterize it too severely. But to talk about our owning the schoolhouses in the way that some of these good people have talked, to say that we can use them for any similar purpose seems to be illogical. Having been built for educational purposes, the schoolhouses can never be used for some- thing that can not be shown to be educational. That, it seems to me, is almost self-evident. It would hold in the courts. I believe a single taxpayer could go into a court and enjoin the use of a school- house for anything that is not educational, or, at any rate, for what would be satisfactory to us all. I think we are very much in need of the use of schools for educa- tional purposes. I do not mean that the people should go there and study after the fashion of studying from schoolbooks, tired people who have been at work all day. But we should find some attractive way to give instruction to our men and women who are in need of it. We are getting to be a very ignorant nation. It is not true to say that this is an educated country. There are fewer people taking a full course of study to-day than in former years. I have received the statistics in regard to that matter from the Chief of the Bureau of Education of the United States, showing that of 100 people of school age—from 5 to 18 years—20 are not in any school. That is COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, 115 due to truancy and child labor in about equal proportion. Ten per cent are in private schools, and 70 out of each 100 are in public schools; and of those 70 only 5 are going through high school, and only 2 out of the 100 go through college. The statistics given by Dr. Davidson, formerly superintendent of schools in this city and now superintendent of schools in the city of Pittsburgh, at a meeting of teachers in Pittsburgh recently, show that after the fifth year in school 25 per cent of the pupils in our city schools are leaving school. They are only five years in school. That is not education, that is disturbed ignorance. That is just enough education to allow a man to read trashy literature, to make a man able to forge a note. It is not enough to develop his character or his will power, or to make him a safe member of society, able to earn his own living or to become a good, self-respecting citizen. He becomes the victim either of a despot or a demagogue. So we want the evening schools. They ought to be made attrac- tive. They ought to be such as they had in the city of Cleveland a few years ago, where they had a course of 10 lectures for a dollar, where the workingmen might come. They gave those people 10 10-cent books in a course of 10 lectures on popular subjects, such as science or civics, for a dollar. That made a very instructive course. I believe if we would adopt some such idea, have courses of lectures in the public schools in the evening for the purpose of educating our citizens, getting our foreign citizens ready for citizenship, these evening gatherings in the public schools would be the best kind of places for young lawyers to give talks on questions of American citizenship. I would form all over the country first voters’ leagues, and I would give these people that sort of lectures during the year before they were to cast their first presidential vote. And in the years following, the four years between the time they cast their vote and the time they were to cast their second vote, they should be under instruction, in order to make themselves intelligent in matters of citizenship. I believe that would be a most practical and valuable use of the public schools in the evening. I have seen young people take up courses of that kind and become just as enthusiastic about it as if they were eating bonbons and dancing. The young people could be made interested, and the older people, too, if we had these evenings really instructive occasions. Of course, everybody is interested if there is just simply a discus- sion or a scrap. There is a good deal of interest when there is a scrap going on, and I know from experience that more men go to the meetings of the American board when they think there is going to be a fight on some theological question. There is no doubt a forum has some attractions in that respect. But when we make them not too much places of controversy but make these evenings in the schools instructive by means of having popular lectures, biograph- ical courses, and courses of reading we would be doing a tremendous service. The people should read more about our greatest citizens. I had as good a time this summer as I ever had in reading novels, or as anybody else ever had reading novels, and I read again the lives of Washington, Franklin, and Lincoln, and found real delight at the seaside. I believe we can make these thoughtful studies of the great leaders of our country the basis for real preparation for citizenship, 116 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. which should be the principal thought and the principal thought and the principal idea kept in mind in connection with these forms. The second principle I would lay down is that as these school buildings belong to all the people, their use as forums should be under rules of the board of education, or the board of education should be authorized to O. K. the rules which should be provided for the use of the buildings, and the board of education should have the authority or power to veto any provisions of the rules. The rules for the use of these buildings should provide that the schoolhouses can not be used to attack one large class or any class of citizens. Objection has been made that in the schoolhouses where one of the forums was held it was broken up because they wanted to use the schoolhouse in the movement to get 3-cent fares on the street cars. I believe in 3-cent fares, and I believe in 2-cent fares, and in 1-cent fares, especially in 2-cent fares. I had good rides in the street cars of the city of Glasgow, Scotland, on better cars than we have here, with more gentlemanly conductors than we usually have in America, and the conductors wore beautiful uniforms, and I only paid 1 cent for those rides. I did not pay over 3 cents for a street-car ride anywhere in Europe, and I believe in cheap fares. But I do not believe, when the owners of the street cars are also the owners of the schoolhouses, that we should allow the public-school buildings to be used as a propaganda for securing lower street car fares. I do not believe that any person who simply has a hobby ought to be allowed to use the public schools simply to save the cost of hiring a meeting place. I do not believe we have any right to take any public property and use it for a mere agitation of that kind. The purpose of the forum is to bring the people together. Mr. Ward has spoken of the disunity as the thing we want to avoid. We must carefully guard the subjects to be taken up in the discus- sions held in the schoolhouses. We can not have or allow unlimited discussion. If we had a company of people, all of whom had courtesy, no one would attack another, the members of one sect or political party would not attack the members of another sect or political party, or attack any other section of the community, and especially if it was a company of laborers, the members of that company would not attack a capitalist if they were not there, there would be no objectron to that. Men who have courtesy do not do those things. We have to make rules for those things. Men who do those things are morons; they are full-grown men in body, but not in mind or character; and men of that kind always get into these meetings. There has got to be somebody to make rules, and I think the board of education should have the authority to make and revise the rules, and we should hold them responsible. I think, in that connection, that resolutions adopted by a meeting held in such a building are entirely inappropriate on divisive ques- tions. Let us discuss them, but not pass resolutions in regard to them in meetings held in public-school buildings. We might go quite a piece in this matter of discussion, but there ought to be no small sec- tion of the community cathering in one of those places, and when those meetings are held there ought not to be resolutions adopted in COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 117 connection with any subject. The people that have the less attractive homes are likely to be there, and those that have fewer duties in the church or in their fraternities, and persons that have the least impor- tant duties in life are likely to be there, and there ought to be an ex- clusion of resolutions in meetings of that kind. It is the policy of the largest and best conventions to-day not to adopt resolutions, but to compare notes, with reference to subjects of a divisive character. Then I come to the point. The public schools should never be used to antagonize any American institutions. That is a fundamental principle. I do not agree with those who have made a great deal of the janitor question. Even for week nights the janitor ought to have help. But I do not think the Government of the United States ought to be asked to pay the janitor for doing that work. Our people ought to be able to pay for that service, and that is a small matter. The people might pay, say 25 cents a quarter, and thus give them a sense of supporting their own institution, after the Government has pro- vided it. The janitor question is the easiest thing to dispose of. The janitor can be given an assistant who can be trained to attend to the work in the evening, and the janitors ought to be paid for that, — even if there is no Sunday session. The janitors ought not to have this extra work without extra pay, and there ought to be enough money to have an assistant janitor, who is trained sufficiently so that the board of education can trust him with the valuable property of the public. So the main thing is not this question in regard to the janitors or the question in regard to some teacher having to work on Sunday. That can easily be adjusted, and I should be entirely willing to leave that to the judgment and discretion of the board of education. The main thing is this, that Sunday, coming down from the very ereation of the Republic, with marriage, is one of the most funda- mental institutions of the Nation, and no one has any right to tamper with that. Because a little local community may or may not want to use a public building on that day, no one has a right to tamper with that fundamental principle. It is a great, fundamental thing in our country. There are two fundamental institutions in this country which foreigners always recognize—the little red schoolhouse and the quiet Sunday on which thoughtful men have in 28 years 4 years of Sab- bath rest and quiet. That means that in 28 years a man who keeps that as a quiet day, who keeps the Sabbath, has as much time for self-improvement as he would have in a college course, and more. The ordinary college student has a good deal of his time occupied with other things than mere self-improvement in the way of educa- tion. That is why the American people have been able to create a democracy. They have one day of quiet and peace. Look at the countries in South America. They have our institu- tions, but they have a Sunday which is devoted to bull fights and cockfights, and to work, and to labor, and to dissipation, and that is what makes the people of those countries grown-up children. They are the tools either of the demagogue or the revolutionist, or the tools of a despot. So this American institution is a deep and fundamental affair in our country. 118 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. Most of those who have favored this bill have said that it is none of the business of this committee to deal with the question as to whether or not these schoolhouses shall be open on Sunday, but I want to say very emphatically that it is. Tt has been said here that it is none of the business of this commit- tee whether these schools are used on Sunday or not. If you please, I want to speak very closely to that question. I want to propose an amendment to this bill:in the language of the Constitution, on page 4, line 24, that “the building shall be available for use for such a center and at such a time, Sundays excepted, as may be requested by said association of adult persons.” It has been intimated that this Government has not anything to do with the Sunday question. But it is in the Constituion. The most important work done under the Constitution is the work of the President in considering bills brought before him to signature, and under the Constitution he is allowed 10 days, Sundays excepted, in which to approve or disapprove bills, and in that phrase ** Sundays excepted,” there is the very foundation stone of this country, from the time of the sailing of Columbus and the landing of the Pilgrims on Plymouth Rock down to the present day. Sundays excepted has been the fundamental law and custom. - ! When the Congress of the United States meets it is Sundays ex- cepted. It was an unfair thing to say, as somebody said here, that Congress does not observe Sunday. Congress gathers on Sundays out of courtesy to hold eulogies for the dead. Congress performs all its official activities, and all legislatures of all the States, and all the courts and schools and colleges perform their active work “ Sundays excepted.” , There is nothing in this country more fundamental in law and cus- tom than Sundays excepted, and in this law we should conform to that law and custom by incorporating in it this universal principle, making Sundays excepted. Mr. Focur. Business contracts made on Sundays are not legal. Mr. Crarts. That is absolutely universal. A man can not make a note that is legal on that day. It is a dies non. That means it is not a day for legislative or business life or for the carrying on of ordinary activities of life. It is the day of days for the development of the higher intelligence and the higher qualities of life. IT want to cite an instance to you where Sunday has been officially recognized by the United States Government. Whenever this Nation has adopted an exposition—an exposition, educational, if you please, where there is a bazaar, a museum, and all that sort of thing, all of a very high educational character—every single exposition this eountry has adopted nationally has been adopted with the inclusion of the words “ Sundays excepted.” There was an exposition at Philadelphia in 1876, and that was elosed on Sundays by vote of the trustees and directors, responding to the sentiment of the country. At Chicago we closed that exposi- tion on Sundays by law, but the local authorities violated it. Con- gress said Sundays should be excepted in the opening of the Chi- cago exposition. When we celebrated the purchase of the Louisiana Territory from the French, at St. Louis in 1904, I myself had the privilege of writ- COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 119 ing the law that said there should be a contract entered into to close the gates on Sunday. _ Then, when we had the exposition at Jamestown, in 1907, celebrat- ing the settlement of Virginia, the same thing was done. Those are the only four expositions adopted by the Nation, and in every case this Nation said the Sabbath shall be observed, rather than that we should have the French Sunday of St. Louis. I think I need not dwell upon that. I want to emphasize this. There is nothing I have heard in this hearing that seems to be so much in need of combating than the idea that we shall have local option on the Ten Commandments. Some of the speakers have said that the local opinion of a school district—what matter if it is a crooked ward or a saloon district— that the local opinion of a single school district, or the opinion of the whole District of Columbia shall decide. In this case the schools are owned by the whole country. We have all paid taxes which have gone toward the expense of building the school buildings, the taxes paid by the people from one end of the country to the other, and they own these school houses. It is a national matter. Suppose we were in some other community where it was a State matter or even a city matter, or even a local dis- trict. There is no case where any local option applies to a question of this kind. You might just as well say that the local communities might decide in regard to a law governing monopoly. The question in reference to the observance of the Sabbath day is just as fundamental in this country as marriage, and we have always observed it. I want to give you a quotation from a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States. Some people think it is a question of the churches, but the Supreme Court of the United States is on record in this matter in relation to the observance of Sunday. I am going to quote to you a part of a decision of the Supreme Court that covers this case, as to whether or not it is the business of this com- mittee to take into consideration whether these buildings shall be open on Sunday. It is certainly the business of this committee to regard American institutions when they are dealing with the use of buildings belonging to the whole people. This decision of the Supreme Court was a unanimous decision, and it was delivered by the late Mr. Justice Field on March 16, 1885. It is found in 113 U.S., page 710. It says: “Laws setting aside Sunday as a day of rest are upheld not from any right of the Government to legislate for the promotion of relig- ious observances but from its right to protect all persons from the physical and moral debasement that comes from uninterrupted labor. Such laws have always been deemed beneficial and merciful laws, especially to the poor and defendent, to the laborers in our factories and workshops, and in the heated rooms of our cities, and the valid- ity has been sustained by the highest courts of the States.” It is not true that it is no business of a committee of Congress or of Congress whether Sunday shall be regarded in this bill. It is not a matter that ought, to be left to anybody’s discretion. We are glad to have it in good hands now, but it is not a matter in this bill or in the present law that should be left to the discretion of anybody whether anything that will affect the national observance of Sunday 120 COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. shall be decided by the local sentiment, by the sentiment of a school district, or a larger community. The right arm, the most important part of the Sabbath reform, is the promotion of the religious Sabbath ; its left arm, the preservation of the civil Sabbath. These two things, the Christian Sabbath on the one hand and the American Sabbath on the other, are as distinct as my two arms that resemble and cooperate, and yet are by no means the same. This distinction is itself an answer to most of the objections to Sab- bath laws, which rest chiefly to the false assumption that they are enforcements of a duty to God, punishments of a sin against God. We make no dissent from the inference that Christ’s words, “ Ren- der to Cesar the things that are Cesar’s and to God the things that are God’s,” forbid Christians to enforce by civil law anything that is only a duty to God, or to punish by civil law anything that is only a sin against God. It is admitted, however, by our opponents that it is the province of civil law to enforce man’s duties to man and especially to punish crimes against man. It is exactly on this ground that Sabbath laws forbid Sunday work and Sunday dissipation, namely, as crimes against man. A notorious outlaw made the pious statement, “I never rob a poor man.”- Probably he does not kill a dead man. To rob a poor man of his purse or coat is only petty lar- ceny. But it is grand larceny to steal the poor man’s weekly rest day, his “home day,” his independence day. Ceaseless toil is slow murder. Sunday laws are not “religious legislation,” because they come from the Bible any more than the laws against adultery, which are as distinctly a part of biblical morality as Sabbath laws. Both the Bible and the codes of the most advanced governments forbid mur- der, theft, adultery, false witness, and work on the Sabbath. Re- ligion renders to God the things that are God’s by forbidding these things chiefly as sins against God. Government renders to Cesar the things that are Cesar’s by forbidding them as crimes against man. As a Seventh-day Adventist “sentinel tract” against “ religious legislation ” says: “ Legislation against crime is not religious legis- lation. It is legislation on morality purely on a civil basis.” Put, then, into the religious Sabbath as its watermark, the word “sin,” relating to wrongs done to God, and into the civil Sabbath as its watermark, “ crime,” referring to wrongs done to man. | There are many who hold the theory which J neither affirm here nor deny that the State is accountable to God, as well as the indi- vidual and the church, and should forbid itself to sin, and may there- fore forbid Sabbath breaking on higher grounds than the wrong it brings to man, but I wish to show that there are grounds enough that are purely human and humane to justify him who holds the most secular theory of Government in defending the civil Sabbath. Even on the “let-alone” view of Government as only a police force to protect men against infringments on their rights, the civil Sab- bath can be amply vindicated. Recent Sabbath legislation has aimed only to make a “ dies non,” a no day, not a holy day, an empty day, opportunity for worship for him who wishes to worship, for rest in other ways to others. Priv- ilege is the very definition of the civil Sabbath. “The Sabbath COMMUNITY FORUMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. 121 was made for man,” said Christ. They echo this saying who defend the Sabbath, not by appealing only or chiefly to God’s will, but—to use a Constitutional term—to “the general welfare.” ‘“‘ Whose is the image and superscription”? cry the opponents of Sabbath laws; and they answer, “ The Lord’s,” for it is called “ The Lord’s Day.” But the Lord of the Sabbath says it was “ made for man,” and so stamps it “man’s day” also. It is only man’s part in the day that American Sabbath laws defend. | A homely illustration or two will make this point clear. A shrewd Iowa farmer put up in his melon patch this sign: “ Boys, do not touch these melons, for they are green and God sees you.” The church exhorts men against Sunday work and Sunday dissipa- tion because God sees and will punish; but the State forbids these things because they are unhealthy to the body politic, physically, mentally, morally, and politically.