MMTWltt )r 
 
 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 
 
 SJXTY-THIRD CONGRESS 
 Second Session 
 
 H. R. 11749 
 
 A BILL TO CREATE A NATIONAL UNIVERSITY AT THE 
 SEAT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 
 
 • • 
 STATEMENT OF 
 
 DR. CHARLES W. DABNEY 
 
 FEBRUARY 27, 1914 
 
 # 
 
 WASHINGTON 
 
 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
 1914 
 
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION. 
 
 House op Representatives, Sixty-third Congress. 
 
 DUDLEY M. HUGHES, Georgia, Chairman. 
 
 WILLIAM W. RUCKER, Missouri. 
 ROBERT L. DOUGHTON, North. Carolina. 
 JOHN W. ABERCROMBIE, Alabama. 
 
 J. THOMPSON BAKER, New Jersey. 
 JOHN R. CLANCY, New York. 
 
 THOMAS C. THACHER, Massachusetts. 
 STEPHEN A. HOXWORTH, Illinois. 
 
 JAMES F. BURKE, Pennsylvania. 
 CALEB POWERS, Kentucky. 
 
 HORACE M. TOWNER, Iowa. 
 EDMUND PLATT, New York. 
 
 ALLEN T. TREADWAY, Massachusetts 
 SIMEON D. FESS, Ohio. 
 
 ARTHUR R. RUPLEY, Pennsylvania. 
 
 James L. Fort, Clerk. 
 
 2 
 
3? r* 73 
 
 \l / Y\^ V\ 6-^* 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 STATEMENT OF ME. CHAELES W. DABNEY, PEESIDENT OF THE 
 
 UNIVEESITY OF CINCINNATI, CINCINNATI, OHIO. 
 
 . * 
 
 2 
 
 lo 
 
 H. 
 
 
 
 U-) 
 
 Dr. Dabney. The very persistence of the movement for the estab¬ 
 lishment of a national university, after a century of intermittent dis¬ 
 cussion without any progress, would seem of itself to show that there 
 was not only a great need felt for it but that there were forces be¬ 
 hind it which must ultimately bring it to life. The gradual piling 
 up of organized influences in support of the proposal is one of the 
 striking things in our American educational history, and proves that 
 there is something behind the movement more powerful than the 
 sentiment growing out of George Washington’s bequest. My pur¬ 
 pose, therefore, is to show that the proposal arises naturally out of 
 the needs of the educational and scientific institutions of the country, 
 especially of the great State universities and agricultural and mechan¬ 
 ical colleges, and of the scientific bureaus and other departments of 
 Government here in Washington. My thesis, then, is that the national 
 university is necessary for the completion of these institutions, 
 State and National, and will therefore be rather an evolution than a 
 creation, a development out of existing institutions and not an en¬ 
 tirely new establishment. In this broad sense the national univer¬ 
 sity already exists in the great libraries, museums, and scientific 
 bureaus carried on by the Nation at the Capital, and in the great 
 surveys covering the country, conducted under the auspices of the 
 National Government. 
 
 Undoubtedly George Washington had in mind the establishment 
 at the Capital of a national university of the type that existed in 
 his day at the capitals of the various continental countries; that is, 
 an institution for general higher and professional education. The 
 ^development in this country of great private institutions, and espe¬ 
 cially of the State universities, the characteristic institutions of 
 America, has entirely removed the necessity for this type of insti¬ 
 tution in Washington. Failure to recognize this has caused great 
 confusion in the past and is chiefly responsible for the failure of the 
 earlier advocates of the national university to impress their views 
 /upon the educational authorities of the country. That an ordinary 
 university, no matter how great and rich it might be, was not needed 
 at Washington has been clearly recognized by all who have discussed 
 the matter in the last 20 years. During this time the demand for a 
 great graduate institution which should correlate the scientific 
 bureaus and departments and be the head of the universities of 
 the country—an institution, in short, which would be a university 
 for university-trained men, rather than a popular institution—has 
 become steadily greater. The chief demand has been for an agency 
 
 3 
 
4 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 which would open up to the students of the country the vast stores of 
 material for study found in the National Capital. In order to do this it 
 has been apparent to all that some organization of the university type 
 was necessary. Every proposal made in recent years has been 
 based on this opinion—that tremendous resources for study and re¬ 
 search are going to waste in Washington and that some organization 
 should be provided to make them available for advanced students of 
 history, government, economics, natural science and its applications. 
 
 In recent years the opinion has also been growing that the Gov¬ 
 ernment itself should promote such study as a means of preparing 
 men for its own service and of developing a scientific knowdedge and 
 public opinion which would aid Congress, the State legislatures, and 
 the municipalities in giving the people better government. It is evi¬ 
 dent also that the ordinary methods of the civil service are not meet¬ 
 ing the demands of the Government, States, and cities for scientific 
 experts, and the work of some of the great State universities, like 
 the University of Wisconsin, in cooperating with and serving their 
 State legislatures and administering their State commissions and 
 bureaus has led many to believe that the national university would 
 be of similar service to our National Government. The purpose of 
 the present writer, then, is to try to trace the development of this, 
 which he believes to be the true conception of the national university. 
 
 The first definite formulation of this conception that we have 
 record of was in a resolution of Congress approved April 12, 1892, 
 which, after referring to the large collections in Washington and 
 the duty of the Government to— 
 
 promote the work of education by attracting students to avail themselves of the 
 advantages aforesaid under the direction of competent instructors— 
 
 Declared that— 
 
 the facilities for research and illustration in the following and other govern¬ 
 mental collections in the city of Washington for the promotion of knowledge 
 shall be accessible under proper rules to the scientific investigators and to 
 students of any institution of higher education now incorporated or hereafter 
 to he incorporated in the District of Columbia. 
 
 Following this was a list of all the chief Government institutions. 
 The limitation to institutions in the District of Columbia was re¬ 
 moved by act of March 3, 1901, so as to extend these provisions— 
 
 to duly qualified individual students and graduates of institutions of learning in 
 the several States and Territories, as well as in the District of Columbia. 
 
 This resolution accomplished little, for these collections are scat¬ 
 tered all over Washington in the care of officials not primarily in 
 terested in students. Some investigators were able to hunt up the 
 material they wanted, but their general failure to do so caused 
 next a movement to form a central bureau or clearing house to 
 which students could go for information with regard to the facilities 
 for study and the openings for scientific work in Washington. In 
 the absence of information describing these facilities it had proved 
 almost futile for students to come here on their own hook and seek 
 to find what they wanted. The ordinary student would be lost in 
 the mazes of the Government bureaucracy. As President Hadley 
 said some years later— 
 
 the student who comes to Washington to-day to get his scientific training in 
 the Government departments comes under his own impulse and at his own 
 risk. 
 

 Call number 
 
 CALL SLIP FOR RESERVED BOOKS 
 
 er AUTHOR 
 
 TITLE 
 
 ^ 2 
 
 Reserved books are to be consulted in the Reading rooms only. 
 The signer of the call slip must return the book to the Loan desk before 
 leaving the room. 
 
 Reserved books may not be loaned from the library except when 
 the Reading rooms are closed; and when so loaned they must be re¬ 
 turned by the time th 
 borrower to a fine of 
 for every hour after t 
 
 Signature of borrowe 
 
-UU.aX ^ 
 
NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 5 
 
 The Association of Agricultural Colleges and Experiment Sta¬ 
 tions renewed the agitation, therefore, by appointing at the meeting 
 in July 1897, a committee to— 
 
 investigate, consider, and if practicable, devise a plan whereby graduate 
 students may have access to and use of the Congressional Library and the col¬ 
 lections in the Smithsonian Institution and the scientific bureaus of the va¬ 
 rious departments at Washington. * * * ; the composition and organiza¬ 
 
 tion of such a staff as may be necessary to properly coordinate and direct such 
 work and offer an outline of such legislation as may be necessary to effect the 
 general purposes of this resolution. 
 
 In response to this resolution, the committee reported that they 
 thought the time was ripe for action, and that some existing agency 
 should be found to undertake such work of organization, coordina¬ 
 tion, and direction, and that they had therefore turned to the Smith¬ 
 sonian Institution as the one best fitted for the purpose. 1 
 
 The matter was duly presented to the Board of Regents of the 
 Smithsonian Institution at its meeting on January 24, 1900, but 
 on the advice of the secretary, the institution declined to take any 
 action and laid the matter over until the following year. When the 
 board met again the Carnegie Institution had been founded, and 
 the matter is not mentioned again in the proceedings of the Smith¬ 
 sonian Institution as far as I have read. 
 
 Mr. Fess. Would it interfere with your remarks if I should ask 
 you questions? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. Not at all. 
 
 Mr. Fess. Would the plan of utilizing the departments here inter¬ 
 fere in any way with the research work that would be carried on ? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. I can not see how it would. I think it would aid 
 and further the work of the Government and improve it vastly, just 
 as it aids and improves every scientific investigator to teach along 
 the line of the subject he is investigating. I think the universal 
 verdict of the educators is that it helps an investigator if he can 
 have a small body of students to teach, and that he can better under¬ 
 stand his subject by explaining it to others. 
 
 Now, I am afraid my friend Dr. James is laboring under the 
 impression that the proposal to found the Washington Memorial 
 Institution was intended as antagonistic to the national university 
 movement. It was not. It was simply a movement to accomplish 
 some small part of what the national university would accomplish. 
 It was projected by friends of this movement in Washington at the 
 time, because we were almost in despair that anything would ever 
 be done. 
 
 The Washington Academy of Sciences next took the matter up 
 in connection with the Washington Memorial Association. The ob¬ 
 ject of the Washington Academy of Sciences was to federate the 
 various scientific societies in the National Capital for the promotion 
 of science in the broadest sense. The Washington Memorial Asso¬ 
 ciation was a society of ladies and gentlemen who had undertaken 
 the erection of a building in the Capital as a memorial to Washing¬ 
 ton, and to provide a home for a bureau to give information and act 
 as a clearing house for students and Government officials. These 
 two organizations agreed that, although American universities had 
 so developed since Washington’s time that they fulfilled many of 
 
 1 P. 58, Bulletin G5, Dept, of Agric. Proceedings Twelfth Annual Convention. 1898. 
 
6 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 the objects of the national university as he saw them, there was still 
 great need of a bureau in the city of Washington, which would 
 facilitate the use of the scientific and other resources of the Govern¬ 
 ment for purposes of investigation and should cooperate with the 
 colleges in directing their professors and students where they could 
 find these resources. 
 
 As a means of accomplishing these objects, these associations pro¬ 
 posed the establishment of an institution in Washington, separate 
 from the Government, which would, through a small corps of officers, 
 and perhaps a small faculty of instructors, bring together the 
 students and the material and scientific men in the National Capital. 
 A committee of the academy was appointed to cooperate with the 
 committees of the Association of Agricultural Colleges and Experi¬ 
 ments Stations and the National Education Association in the effort 
 to create a new organization to accomplish their purposes. This 
 committee drafted and secured the passage of the act approved by 
 Congress March 3, 1901, extending the privileges of the Washington 
 departments to all students of the country, and also drafted a plan 
 of organization which was in brief as follows: 
 
 A private foundation, independent of Government support or con¬ 
 trol, was proposed, which was to facilitate the use of the scientific 
 and other resources of the Government for research and cooperate 
 with universities, colleges, and individuals in securing to properly 
 qualified persons opportunities for advanced study and research. 
 The policy, control, and management of the institution was to be 
 vested in a board of 15 trustees, and in addition there should be an 
 advisory board composed of the heads of the executive departments, 
 bureaus, etc. The articles of incorporation, which were issued under 
 the laws of the District of Columbia, May 16, 1901, establishing the 
 Washington Memorial Institution with the object of creating a me¬ 
 morial to George Washington, to promote science and literature, 
 provide opportunities and facilities for higher learning, and to facili¬ 
 tate the utilization of the scientific and other resources of the Gov¬ 
 ernment for purposes of research and higher education. Fifteen 
 trustees were elected, including a regent of the Smithsonian Institu¬ 
 tion, a number of university presidents and heads of Washington 
 bureaus. President Daniel C. Gilman was elected director, with the 
 duty of making all “ arrangements for cooperation between the insti¬ 
 tution, on the one hand, and the Government, universities, learned 
 societies, and individuals on the other.” Investigations were made 
 as to facilities and instructors available and the expense of providing 
 a limited number of lecturers. 
 
 These would be mostly voluntary, selected from the Government 
 itself. 
 
 A report made to the board at this time by the head of one Gov¬ 
 ernment survey said: 
 
 So far as America is concerned, it is safe to say tliat at Washington the 
 facilities for higher education in the sciences are unequaled. No other city in 
 the Union has so large a corps of eminent men engaged in original research in 
 the fields of geology, geography, anthropology, zoology, botany, chemistry, and 
 astronomy. 
 
 The committee venture to add. among other subjects, meteorology, 
 political and social science, and kindred subjects. 
 
NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 •7 
 
 Most of these men are employed and paid by the Government, so that their 
 services in lecturing and superintending laboratory work could be held at a 
 trifling expense. All that is needed is organization, a home, and a small fund. 
 Incredible as it seems, an excellent course in science, comprising 350 lectures 
 and 140 evenings of laboratory work by 40 different specialists, can be given 
 in this city for the insignificant sum of $5,000—the salary of a single professor 
 in our leading universities. The biological part of the course would be par¬ 
 ticularly strong, the plans having progressed so far as that a course of 150 
 lectures and 140 evenings of laboratory work has been arranged for in zoology 
 and botany. In these branches special emphasis could be given to the system¬ 
 atic and economic sides, neglected in most of our universities. The instruc¬ 
 tion would be given by at least 20 specialists, each proficient in some line of 
 biological research. Courses of equal merit can be arranged in the courses 
 above mentioned. As a recent writer has said, the genius and training are 
 already here, most of the facilities are already provided, and little remains 1 6 
 be done save the coordination of existing instrumentalities. It is of the utmost 
 importance that the early steps be guided by wisdom and experience. 
 
 Gentlemen, that report was written in 1900. How much greater 
 the opportunities are to-day you can judge. The Government de¬ 
 partments have all grown immensely. This is a summary of a report 
 prepared to show what could be done by the men in Washington at 
 that time. I think that was a little too optimistic in the matter of 
 expense; I think it would be a little larger, but there was a good deal 
 of enthusiasm for this scheme for a small institution at the time 
 this proposal was drawn up. But it was looked upon merely as a 
 beginning. 
 
 Mr. Fess. From the standpoint of an educator, what would you 
 say about the expense? Would you try to get through with a little? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. Well, I think the Nation demands a great university 
 here. I dislike to minimize it, but we thought at that time that a 
 vast deal could be done with a little money, but that was because we 
 had so much here already. For the establishment of the national 
 university now, there ought to be an ample fund, because I do not 
 believe the people of the United States want to begin so big a thing 
 in a small way. But any beginning will be better than no beginning 
 at all. 
 
 With plans of this kind in mind, it was proposed to raise for this 
 initial private institution, an endowment to provide $50,000 a year 
 to pay the expenses of such a central bureau and the salaries of a 
 limited number of instructors. To raise this fund, the Washington 
 institution appointed a committee to confer with various gentlemen 
 supposed to be interested in the advancement of science in Wash¬ 
 ington. 1 Among those approached for funds was Mr. Andrew Car¬ 
 negie, who took the matter under consideration. The plan pre¬ 
 sented to Mr. Carnegie was practically as above outlined. About 
 this time, however, a powerful opposition to the national university 
 plan developed, chiefly among the privately endowed institutions 
 in the eastern section "of the country. When it became known to 
 these institutions that Mr. Andrew Carnegie had under consideration 
 a proposition to finance an institution in Washington for teaching 
 and research they exerted their influence to induce him to leave out 
 all teaching features and make it, not a university or institution open 
 to students, but an institution for special investigations. They suc¬ 
 ceeded, and the result was the Carnegie Institution, the establishment 
 of which Mr. Carnegie announced in his letter to the Secretary of 
 
 i Bulletin 65, Department of Agriculture, cit. super. 
 
8 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVEKSITY. 
 
 the Smithsonian Institution, dated December 27, 1901. There seems, 
 therefore, to be no question that the plans and arguments laid before 
 Mr. Carnegie for the Washington institution for both teaching and 
 research first interested him in this general subject, for it was the 
 gentlemen of the committee of the Washington institution who pre¬ 
 sented the cause to him. The first board was made up of some of 
 these same gentlemen, and the first president of the Carnegie Insti¬ 
 tution was Dr. Daniel C. Gilman, who had been chosen as the director 
 of the Washington institution. In this sense, therefore, the Carnegie 
 Institution was a substitute for the Washington Institution proposed 
 by the Washington Academy of Sciences and the Washington Me¬ 
 morial Association. 
 
 The Carnegie Institution represents, of course, a great idea. 
 
 No one can regret that those little proposals resulted in this tre¬ 
 mendous result. Looking back at it, I can see now that it was well. 
 From my point of view, I would say that it was providential that the 
 little private institution failed and the great Carnegie Institution for 
 Research was formed. 
 
 Mr. Fess. In your judgment, President Dabney, would this na¬ 
 tional university displace any phases of this proposition, the Car¬ 
 negie Institution here? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. Oh, not at all. The Carnegie Institution does not 
 meet the need of a national university. It is endowed for special re¬ 
 search work, and it can, after all, only endow a few lines of research. 
 The Carnegie Institution, as far as it goes, is, to my mind, another 
 asset for the national university and another reason for the national 
 university. 
 
 It has already done a vast deal for the advancement of scientific 
 research, and we are sure it will always be an honor to our country 
 and a benefit to the whole world, but it does not meet the needs of the 
 situation. The Carnegie Institution is a foundation for the promo¬ 
 tion of special scientific research by private individuals, by societies 
 or institutions. It has no relation to the National Government or its 
 bureaus, and can only in a very limited way serve the needs of the 
 scholars of the country. It is not open to all students. It is a pri¬ 
 vate institution in this sense, and can not cooperate as freely with the 
 Government bureaus as will a national institution. The need of a 
 national institution, therefore, remains just as urgent as before its 
 establishment. 
 
 Another influence to be considered in shaping the institution of the 
 future must now be mentioned. This is the need of the Government 
 itself for scientific workers and the failure of the ordinary civil 
 service to provide for them. The civil service furnishes a very good 
 method for securing clerks, statisticians, or ordinary officials for the 
 Government service, but it does not furnish adequate methods for 
 securing scientific experts. Therefore, the almost uniform policy in 
 the Government laboratories has been to train these men on the spot, 
 i. e. in the surveys or laboratories. The Geological Survey, the 
 Forestry Service, the Biological Survey, and the various scientific 
 laboratories have followed this plan for years. One thing needed was 
 some method of bringing the young men who desired to enter upon 
 such careers into correspondence with the directors of the laboratories 
 who wanted them. V means to this end has always been lacking, and 
 
N ATI O N A L UN I VERST T \ . 
 
 9 
 
 is still lacking in a great measure, though something has been done 
 in recent years to fill the gap. 
 
 Let me give you an illustration from my experience: When I was 
 in the Department of Agriculture I was walking one day through a 
 museum and I stopped before a case of specimens and saw an old one- 
 armed gentleman working away as best he could with his single 
 hand cleaning the specimens. I said, “ My man, how do you happen 
 to be doing this? ” He said, u I do not know; I have been doing it 
 for a number of years.” “ What is your position? ” I asked. “ I am 
 a messenger in the department,” he said. “What is your salary? ” 
 “ Seventy-five dollars.” “ Would you not rather do something 
 else? ” He said, “ Yes; I am an old man and I would rather do the 
 regular work of a messenger.” T thought it over and remembering 
 a young man in one of the colleges who was studying fust that line 
 it occurred to me I could help them both. So T got the old man a 
 job where he could be out of doors and the young college graduate 
 was put to work on the specimens.. I did not follow the old man, 
 but the young man got the opportunity he needed for scientific re¬ 
 search, with the result that he afterwards became a professor in an 
 agricultural college in the country, and is now head of an important 
 division in the Department of Agriculture. You see, the young man 
 got just the opportunity he was seeking for his development. Now, 
 gentlemen, there are hundreds of such places that should be filled by 
 such young men. They are now being filled through the civil service 
 by people who too often have no particular interest in doing that par¬ 
 ticular kind of work, and therefore they do it mechanically. There 
 are thousands of opportunities for students to do ordinary work that 
 is mechanical for other people, but which they would do with a 
 scientific interest because it gave them an opportunity for study. 
 There are a great many opportunities for scientific research in the 
 laboratories and even in tin 4 general offices of the Government that 
 ought to be open to graduates of this kind. 
 
 Mr. Fess. Would efficient work in the department interfere with 
 their study? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. I do not see how it could; it should improve it; I 
 believe that it would help the work of the department. It always 
 pays to put interest and brain in your work. 
 
 Mr. Towner. Have you not an illustration of the effect of this 
 cooperative work in your Cincinnati college? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. Yes, sir; T am coming to that a little later. I think 
 the cooperative plan of instruction can be extensively and usefully 
 applied in the Government departments. Tt could be carried out 
 much better, of course, if we had a national university here. This 
 has been shown by the work of some of the departments already. 
 
 In the report of the Secretary of Agriculture for 1808, for example, 
 we find this official recognition of this practice of workers in the 
 departments: 
 
 The scientific divisions of tlie Department of Agriculture can to some extent 
 provide postgraduate facilities. We can direct the studies of a few bright young 
 people in each division, and when the department requires help, as it often does, 
 these -young scientists will he available. They should he graduates of agri¬ 
 cultural colleges and conic to the department through a system,of examination 
 that will bring the best and be fair to all. The opening of our laboratories for 
 postgraduate work will provide an eligible list from which to fill Vacancies as 
 they occur, supply temporary agents, and he a source from which State insti- 
 
 73229—14-2 
 
10 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 tutions might get ussistunts in scientific lines. (Yearbook, l>ep::rtment of Agri¬ 
 culture, 1898. pi*. 18, 19.) 
 
 The Secretary goes on to say that to meet this situation he has 
 inaugurated a new class called u student assistants." The Forestry 
 Service carried on for a number of years a regular school for the 
 training of assistants. The rank of “ forest student ” was created and 
 the young man was instructed both in laboratory and the field in 
 preparation for appointment to full service. 
 
 The Geological Survey has followed the same plan with good suc¬ 
 cess. Writing in Science as early as June 28, 1001. the then Director 
 of the Survey, Charles 1). Walcott, wrote: 
 
 In the GeologicnJ Survey gradimt'e students, being the best men available for 
 temporary fieid assistants, were given preference, but as the development of the 
 work progressed, including other scientific bureaus of the Government, it became 
 impossible to find men qualified for the permanent positions opened to them. 
 Graduate students were obtainable, blit they were without practical training. 
 The Civil Service Commission was called on, but has had no eligible* on its lists. 
 The only way out of the difficulty seemed to be for the heads of Government 
 scientific bureaus to select bright, well-educated men and train them. This they 
 have been doing for several years. The Geological Survey cooperates with such 
 institutions of learning as are willing to give the advance instruction neces¬ 
 sary to fit students to engage in the special lines of investigation carried on by 
 it. This cooperation consists mainly in the employment of graduate students 
 and instructors. A high standard is maintained by the character of the exami¬ 
 nations held. 
 
 And the director goes on to give a list, including Harvard, Johns 
 Hopkins, University of Chicago, Yale, Cornell, Wisconsin, Stanford, 
 Amherst, and other colleges, all of whom supplied two or more, and 
 some 20 other institutions, each of which supplied a single assistant 
 to this one survey in one year. He says that 50 per cent become per¬ 
 manent members of the survey, and the others return to the States to 
 do valuable work there. 
 
 There is a regular medical school in connection with the library 
 and museum of the Surgeon General’s Office. This school is only 
 open to the young men who have been admitted to the Government 
 service, though medical students at Washington colleges are per¬ 
 mitted to use the library. The Bureau of Standards also carries on 
 regular classes. The report says: 
 
 The development of researches in this bureau must necessarily go hand in 
 hand with the development of man to make the researches; hence, the edu¬ 
 cational side of this bureau is much more fully developed and much more suc¬ 
 cessful 'than that of most others. 
 
 Other bureaus and laboratories in which men are being trained, or 
 would be admitted are enumerated in the report as follows: Public 
 Health Service, Bureau of Fisheries, Naval Observatory, Patent 
 Office, Bureau of Education, Bureau of Manufactures, Coast Survey, 
 Bureau of Statistics, and the War Records Offices of both the Navy 
 and War Departments. The-bureaus of the Department of Agricul¬ 
 ture, Geological Survey, etc., have been mentioned above. In all, 
 there are some 40 distinct institutions, bureaus, libraries, or labora¬ 
 tories that would be glad to take students for research or training or 
 have already done so. 
 
 The history of the department shows that this is the way in which 
 many of the distinguished men in the Government service have been 
 trained. Many young men trained in the Government service have 
 
XATIONA L UNIVERSTT Y. 
 
 11 
 
 also gone out into universities and technical institutions of the coun¬ 
 try. In fact,.for a long time it was the only way in which certain 
 classes of experts, like topographical engineers and geologists could 
 be trained. There were no other places in the country where they 
 could get this special education. Until the agricultural and mechani¬ 
 cal colleges were established, the Government service offered almost 
 the only method of getting training in agricultural chemistry, eco¬ 
 nomic entomology, horticultural science, and in sciences connected 
 with the animal industry. Although many of the universities taught 
 the theory of geology and these other sciences, they offered almost no 
 opportunities for practical training. 
 
 The colleges were for a long time institutions apart from real life 
 and the real practice of the sciences: so that the Government or State 
 services offered young men their only opportunities for this training. 
 The same was true in a large degree also of economics and political 
 science. There were only a very fe^wchairs in these subjects in our 
 country until after the Civil War. There was only one chair in polit¬ 
 ical science in the Southern States before 1880, and that was the one 
 founded by Francis Lieber, a German scholar, at the State College 
 of South Carolina. Government office offered the only opportunity 
 for’study in these lines also. Illustrations of eminent men who have 
 been trained in the Government service will occur to all of you. 
 It may not be improper to mention two men distinguished for their 
 service to their country in different departments who are still living: 
 The present Counsellor for the State Department, perhaps the great¬ 
 est authority on international law and connected subjects in this 
 country, commenced his career as a law clerk in that department. 
 He has held the highest professorship in the country in this subject, 
 and has been called back to Washington repeatedly for the service 
 of his country. The present Secretary of the Smithsonian Institu¬ 
 tion, a position which we rightly regard as the deanship of the sci¬ 
 entific profession in this country, commenced his career as an assist¬ 
 ant geologist, first on the New York State survey and very soon 
 afterwards on the United States Geological Survey, where he worked 
 through all of the different grades up to the directorship. He was' 
 the man who perfected the plans for the geological survey of this 
 country. I might give you the names of hundreds of men who have 
 been trained by this method for the service of science and their 
 country. Still, unquestionably, the greatest difficulty that the Gov¬ 
 ernment encounters is this one of getting men to do its work. I can 
 assure you that the same is true with regard to the work of the 
 universities and the scientific work of the States. It is men with train¬ 
 ing, not mere learning, that we want everywhere. The burning ques¬ 
 tion to-day is how to get men who not only know things, but who 
 know how to do things. The Government service offers the best 
 opportunities in this country for training men of this type. Why 
 should it nof be used in a more systematic and liberal manner for 
 training the young men of the country? I contend that it should 
 be, and that to this end there should be an institution in Washington 
 which would introduce these young men into the Government service 
 and educate them on the scientific side while they are getting their 
 practical training. The question arises then, How shall this be done ? 
 
 I believe that any plan which would admit graduates of the col¬ 
 leges and universities to the Government service while they are get- 
 
12 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 ing their professional training, is bound to produce good results. 
 The plans already in use in the departments referred to are good 
 methods. The plan of admitting scientific aids as pursued for a 
 time in the Department of Agriculture was a good one, but, judg¬ 
 ing from our experience at the University of Cincinnati, I believe 
 with my colleague, Dean Schneider, who recently appeared before 
 you, that the cooperative plan would be a better one. 
 
 I come now to the application of the cooperative plan of training 
 experts. 
 
 1 read Dean Schneider’s excellent speech before this committee. 
 He explained the general plan to you. 
 
 Mr. Towner. Dean Schnieider only told us of his views on the 
 general subject of vocational education. He made no particular 
 application of it to the matter before the committee, i would be 
 glad if you would go into that. 
 
 Dr. Dabney. I can begin vStli this plan for scientific assistants 
 in the Department of Agriculture. The plan at that time was to seek 
 out those young men in the colleges who wanted to work in agronomy, 
 in agricultural chemistry, on soils, in economic biology or entomology, 
 etc., and bring them here and give them a minor position, say from 
 $75 a month up, and put them in the Government service under 
 professors who would be their guides and teachers while they 
 studied in the institution in Washington. 
 
 Mr. Towner. What would you think of a plan of allowing such 
 a college course to take the place of a civil-service examination ? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. I doubt very much whether it would do it. The Gov¬ 
 ernment examinations are necessary. There ought to be some special 
 examination or inquiry of some kind to find out whether the ap¬ 
 plicant is specially fitted to do the particular work which he aspires 
 to do. But that would be a minor matter. You might let some 
 agent of the national university look after that. 
 
 Mr. Towner. Assuming that the place sought was a place in the 
 Biological Survey of the Agricultural Department and the applicant 
 had a diploma from the school of biology of an accredited uni¬ 
 versity, would you say that was sufficient ? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. The department might desire a man to do some 
 particular work—say on soils or on crops. Now, you would prob¬ 
 ably find a good many graduates in biology, but -they might not be 
 particularly fitted for that work. The fact that a man was a 
 graduate in biology might not be enough. No; I would not like to 
 commit myself to the broad proposition that the graduate should 
 be given a place just because he is a graduate. I think that the 
 head of the bureau ought to be able to select the men for the various 
 branches of the work in his bureau. There are so many kinds of 
 work going on that there would be opportunities for many of the 
 biological graduates. 
 
 Mr. Fess. I had a statement, a worked-out statement, from Dean 
 Schneider that I would like to submit in answer to Judge Towner’s 
 
 Dr. Dabney. 1 hope you will. What is needed from this point 
 of view is an institution to act as a clearing house between the col¬ 
 leges and the Government laboratories. 
 
 With an institution in Washington of the type of the national 
 university proposed, or at least of the modest character of the Wash- 
 
NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 . 13 
 
 ington institution which we tried to start here in the late nineties, 
 hundreds of young graduates could be gotten together who would be 
 glad to serve the Government on small salaries for the sake of the 
 training they would get. Our experience in Cincinnati indicates 
 that the Government would thus get the highest class of scientific 
 service at the smallest expense. But this should not be the chief 
 consideration. The chief object should be to open up the Govern¬ 
 ment departments for the purpose of educating and training the- 
 future servants of the country. My colleague has, however, de¬ 
 scribed this cooperative plan to you fully, and I need only say that I 
 heartily indorse all of his opinions and sincerely believe that the plan 
 can be successfully applied to the national university. There is no 
 reason in the world why this class of students might not do the rou¬ 
 tine technical work of the laboratories, libraries, museums, statistical 
 'offices, and other bureaus of the Government, being advanced from 
 one class of work to another as they got the knowledge and experi¬ 
 ence. 
 
 Another great service that a national university might render the 
 Government would be the correlation of the different Government 
 scientific departments. I need not tell you that there is an immense 
 amount of duplication of work among these departments, resulting 
 in a great deal of waste time and money. Of course, this is not de¬ 
 signed; it results from the way in which the Government bureaus 
 have grown up independently of each other. 
 
 I have had a little experience along that line. Members of Con¬ 
 gress know how a new bureau in the Government gets started. 
 Because of their somewhat mysterious character it used to be easier 
 1 to start a new scientific laboratory than any other new bureau in the 
 Government. The new bureau started in an appropriation bill. 
 Some bright young man connected with some scientific laboratory 
 thinks of some line of work that would be of some value to the Gov¬ 
 ernment and he begins to work for it. In the old days he did not 
 even have the permission of the Secretary, but he or his friends would 
 come before a committee and try to show why a certain new bureau 
 was needed. To-day he would need to get the permission of his 
 chief and the Secretary, but that is still, perhaps, not very hard to 
 do. You gentlemen know how these things come up. A new scheme 
 is presented and a little appropriation is asked for, perhaps only 
 $5,000 'or $10,000, and* it gets into the appropriation bill. I know of 
 a little bureau in one of the departments which started with $5,000, 
 and, now after 15 years, it gets $400,000. It is not necessary to say 
 whether it was a good line of work or not. That bureau now has 
 many different laboratories, duplicating to a certain extent the work 
 in other bureaus. I will not say that they are unnecessary, but it is 
 too easy to duplicate these laboratories. There should be some cen¬ 
 tral authority to coordinate and correlate them. 
 
 The different bureaus are doubtless trying faithfully to eliminate 
 this waste within their own field, but so far no agent has been found 
 to eliminate this duplication as between the different departments 
 and bureaus. Congress has from time to time made honest efforts 
 to eliminate this duplication and establish better correlation, but in 
 the nature of things committees or commissions can not do it; it is a 
 piece of work that requires time, patience, and scientific ability. To 
 take a single illustration: The last time I made a count (in 1901) 
 
14 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 the Government had seven different chemical laboratories in Wash¬ 
 ington. I expect that a number of others have been established since 
 Now, chemistry is chiefly a tool used by the Government in its scien¬ 
 tific and economic work; it is just one method of testing and measur¬ 
 ing things. The principles and methods by which this testing and 
 measuring is done are for the most part the same in all departments. 
 Why, therefore, should there not be in Washington one great chemical 
 'laboratory, like a great factory, in which all the chemists here occupied 
 might be given laboratories, remaining still under the various depart¬ 
 ments ? The majority of them are carrying on their work at the present 
 time in rented buildings inferior to any of those in the universities 
 and under conditions that are not especially favorable or stimulating. 
 A central plant in which all the chemists would be brought together 
 would not only help to eliminate duplication and promote economy, 
 but would, by encouraging personal contact and discussion, greatly 
 improve the chemists and the work. The same is true of the bio¬ 
 logical, medical, and other services of the Government. 
 
 But this brings up the great question of the proper housing of the 
 Government scientific bureaus, laboratories, and libraries, a question 
 too large to be discussed at this time. Aside from the question of 
 housing, however, there can be no doubt that a central scientific in¬ 
 stitution could do a great deal to correlate and otherwise improve the 
 work of all the Government scientific departments. 
 
 Another consideration in advocating a national university of this 
 type is the duty of utilizing these vast stores of scientific material in 
 Washington as completely as possible for the ndvancement of knowl¬ 
 edge. It is a well-known fact that the demands for immediate eco¬ 
 nomic results by the Government compel its scientific staff to devote 
 their energies almost exclusively to the study of problems having 
 practical ends. The rich materials for the advancement of pure 
 science are thus necessarily neglected in a large measure. If in each 
 of the Government scientific bureaus there were a number of ad¬ 
 vanced students working on their material with reference to the ad¬ 
 vancement of pure science, the world would certainly get a much 
 larger output of results. The utilization of material by a limited 
 number of students of this character need not interfere at all with its 
 use for economic results. On the other hand, a complete scientific 
 study of the material would undoubtedly greatly promote the effi¬ 
 ciency of the departments in reaching the itnmediate results de¬ 
 manded by the Government. The presence and work of advanced 
 students would undoubtedly greatly improve the work of the Govern¬ 
 ment scientific staff itself. 
 
 It is conceded by all educational authorities also that the investi¬ 
 gator who is doing a limited amount of teaching does the best work 
 for the advancement of science. Teaching makes it necessary for a 
 man to go over his subject broadly, and the presence of young and 
 earnest minds is always very stimulating to the investigator. The 
 man who spends all of his time in particular research too often loses 
 his connection with everything else, with the result that he becomes 
 buried in one subject. The greatest investigators have always been 
 great teachers. It is fully believed, therefore, that a reasonable 
 amount of teaching would not injure but would improve the scien¬ 
 tific staff of the Government at Washington. 
 
NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 15 
 
 There is another consideration, however, which appears to me to be 
 more important than any of those mentioned so far, and that is the 
 influence that the faculty and students of the national university 
 would have upon the entire Government, Congress, and the executive 
 departments, as well as these scientific bureaus and surveys. We have 
 in mind, of course, the new type of a university and not the ancient 
 cloistered institution. The time was when universities considered 
 themselves as things apart from real life, but in these days the uni-’ 
 versity is making itself more and more the servant of the people. 
 Some years ago we used to hear a good deal about “ university exten¬ 
 sion ”; that is, about the plans of extending the instruction given by 
 the university to the ordinary people. In these days the university 
 seeks to live among the people and work with them all the time. We 
 are familiar now with the splendid work being done, for example, by 
 the University of Wisconsin. You know the extent to which the 
 State of Wisconsin uses the members of its faculty on its various com¬ 
 missions; you are also familiar with the remarkable work of the 
 legislative reference bureau and of the Industrial Commission of 
 Wisconsin. Through such measures the university has become a part 
 of the living organism that w r e call the State of Wisconsin, the brain 
 commanding every part of the body politic. As a result, we all 
 recognize Wisconsin as one of the most progressive of our States, the 
 one to wdiich we all look for new ideas in government. We may not 
 approve of all the different political and economic experiments they 
 are trying in Wisconsin, but it certainly is most important that these 
 experiments should be tried out in the scientific and efficient way in 
 « which they are being tested under the direction of the University of 
 Wisconsin. 
 
 My thought is, therefore, that the national university at Washing¬ 
 ton would serve the National Government in the same wav that the 
 
 # t c/ 
 
 University of Wisconsin serves the State of Wisconsin—it would fur¬ 
 nish a great board of experts here at the National Capital to study, 
 counsel, and advise about all our great scientific, 'economic, industrial, 
 educational, and social problems. It has been proposed, for example, 
 that there should be a national legislative reference bureau. The 
 national university would itself be such a bureau. 
 
 Right here let me refer to that old argument against the national 
 university that the politicians would be certain to interfere with it. 
 Anyone who is familiar with the work of these new State universities 
 is bound to be amused at this. In the old days, while the universities 
 were being established, and before they asserted themselves, they were 
 more or less interfered with by the politicians. That was a kind of 
 diseases that belonged in the childhood of our institutions. But since 
 the universities have been established and have filled the legislatures 
 with their graduates, the thing works the other way. Instead of the 
 politicians running the universities, the universities of the country are 
 more and more directing the economic and governmental work done 
 by the legislators. 
 
 Let me illustrate by a State university. I went once to see that 
 grand old man, the greatest president of any State university—Dr. 
 James B. Angell—and he told about some legislation he was ad¬ 
 vocating for a State system of education. After he explained the 
 matter, which elicited my keen interest, I said, “ Doctor, your legis¬ 
 lature is in session. I suppose you will go to Lansing and see about 
 
16 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 it.” He said, “ No; I shall not. I have many of my boys there. All I 
 need to do is to tell them what ought be done and they will do it.” 
 President Angell was, of course, supreme in Michigan; but this shows 
 what an influence a State university can exert. 
 
 A national university in Washington, officered by the wisest and 
 best scholars in this country, would, in my opinion, exert far more 
 influence upon Congress than Congress would exert upon it. In 
 fact, it is ridiculous to charge that any considerable number of Mem¬ 
 bers of Congress can be found who would be so silly as to undertake 
 to influence the thinking, teaching, and counseling men competent to 
 fill the chairs and work in the laboratories of a national university. 
 In my opinion, you would find that a fine spirit of cooperation would 
 soon grow up and that Members of Congress would constantly ap¬ 
 peal to the faculty of the university to advise and help them in*their 
 work for the country. 
 
 In conclusion, let me recall another personal illustration with 
 which you may be partly familiar. Some 30 years ago a young man, 
 a graduate student in a neighboring university, came here to Wash¬ 
 ington to study. Every week for a year or more while studying in 
 the university that young man came here to these halls to study the 
 system of government of his country. He passed through these halls, 
 he visited the committees, and sat long hours in the galleries of the 
 House and Senate. He studied in the libraries and in the depart¬ 
 ments and so collected the material for the dissertation on which he 
 was granted the doctor’s degree. Last year that young man stood 
 at the Clerk’s desk in the House of Representatives and, for the first 
 time since Washington, delivered a presidential message to Con¬ 
 gress. Gentlemen, do you not think it was worth while to give that 
 young man the opportunity to study in Washington? Woodrow 
 Wilson got his training in that way. In just that way many other 
 young men could get a similar training if they had the same oppor¬ 
 tunity. President Wilson made his book on Congressional Govern¬ 
 ment first as a thesis in preparation for his college examination. 
 You know what a valuable book it has been. Do you not believe 
 that if 100 young men had been given the same opportunity that 
 young man had we would have now in the departments in Washing¬ 
 ton and in the States more polished scholars like Woodrow Wilson? 
 If the departments could be opened up to such young men, we would 
 soon have thousands here studying the problems of this country. 
 
 Mr. Platt. Is it not true that the departments are open to such 
 men as Woodrow Wilson to-day? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. Yes, to a very limited extent ; but how many young 
 men know how to find these things? Wilson was the pioneer. Per¬ 
 haps other young men lacked the initiative, the energy, and judg¬ 
 ment, but I believe Wilson owed something to the direction of the 
 great professors at Baltimore. 
 
 Mr. Platt. But this bill -says that no man who has not a M. A. 
 degree can come here. 
 
 Dr. Dabney. Well, Wilson had a college degree, and undoubtedly 
 there were not many Woodrow Wilsons at that time or perhaps 
 very many since. But his example shows what a young scholar 
 may do for science here. You know that his book on “Congres¬ 
 sional Government ” is the first book we had giving the method of 
 the work of the Congress. Is it not remarkable that no man wrote 
 
NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 17 
 
 such a book until 1883, and that it was written then by a college 
 student? You recall also that an Englishman had to come to Wash¬ 
 ington to write the first complete textbook on the “ American Com¬ 
 monwealth ”—James Bryce, now Viscount Bryce, until recently am¬ 
 bassador of Great Britain to our country. This joint illustration 
 certainly shows clearly that we need scholars here to work up these 
 problems and make these books for us. 
 
 Mr. Rupley. Is our present system of education not changing our 
 Government from a representative democracy to a more modified 
 form of pure democracy ? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. I suppose the tendency is in that direction, because 
 we are educating all the people. It is making more men who are 
 competent to really represent the people in the work that is to be 
 done for the Government. Our Government is becoming as the re¬ 
 sult of more complete public education a more representative de¬ 
 mocracy. 
 
 Mr. Rupley. Again, is it not probable that this may bring up a 
 violent condition in our affairs, social and otherwise- 
 
 Dr. Dabney (interposing). Violent? I do not know what you 
 mean by a violent condition. I do not see why it should be. We 
 started out here in America to establish a democratic system of gov¬ 
 ernment, a government, as Lincoln said, “ by the people, for the 
 people, and of the people.” There is therefore no way to make it 
 a success except by educating all the people. Do you mean to say 
 that it is necessary to keep some of the people ignorant? No; 
 equal opportunity for all must be the rule in all our educational 
 plans, as Dean James says. A system of education is a winnowing 
 machine which enables every man to find the right plane for his 
 work. The idea is to develop the God-given power in every man 
 to work in the place where he serve his country and fellow men best. 
 
 Mr. Rupley. When I said violence, I did not use the word in the 
 ordinary acceptation of it, but I had in mind changed conditions 
 and unsettled governmental conditions. 
 
 Dr. Dabney. No; I do not think any such conditions would result 
 from the enlargement of our plans of higher education by establish¬ 
 ing a national university. I believe the more wisdom and training 
 men have the better and truer citizens they are. I think a violent 
 change is much more liable to occur in a country where the educated 
 people are few and the many are left uneducated. This is, of course, 
 a truism. 
 
 Mr. Platt. Doctor, I asked you a question as to whether or not 
 the departments are now open to real research students? Would a 
 national university composed exclusively of an examining board 
 answer the purposes and let the men do their research work any¬ 
 where? 
 
 Dr. Dabney. No ; I think study and investigation should be pro¬ 
 vided for. The University of London and the other universities of 
 England are giving up that system and all becoming teaching uni¬ 
 versities. In that connection I will refer you to the report of the 
 Royal Commission on the London University. It is found in the 
 London Bluebook. The London University was for a long time 
 merely an examining university. It is now to be a complete uni¬ 
 versity, with teaching departments fully developed. 
 
18 
 
 NATIONAL UNIVERSITY. 
 
 Mr. Platt. Well, it would naturally develop in the course of time 
 to what it now is. 
 
 Dr. Dabney. We need trained civil servants for every part of the 
 Government work. We need trained scientific men and an educated 
 civil service in every department. What the Nation needs above all 
 is trained legislators. In this country the vast majority of our legis¬ 
 lators and public servants are amateurs. It is not so to such an extent 
 in England or on the Continent. Look at Germany, with its most 
 magnificent corps of trained public servants. I think the proposed 
 national university would help greatly to produce such a class of 
 public servants for our country. I thank you. 
 
 The Chairman. Doctor, we are very glad to have had you with us 
 to-night. 
 
 Mr. Powers. Will any of the gentlemen we will hear tonight enter 
 into a discussion of the efforts that have been made heretofore to have 
 Congress take up the question of a national university? 
 
 Mr. Fess. That is already in the first hearing. Mr. Chairman, I 
 presume there is more intellectual and administrative ability in this 
 room gathered about this table than can be heard to-night, and as it 
 is now 10 o’clock and there are gentlemen here from Wyoming and 
 Tennessee and the far West, I think that when we adjourn we ought 
 to continue these hearings to-morrow morning. I move that when 
 we adjourn to-night we adjourn to meet to-morrow morning at 10.30. 
 
 Mr. Powers. I second the motion. 
 
 (The motion was agreed to.) 
 
 The Chairman. I now take pleasure in presenting Dr. Duniway, 
 of the University of Wyoming. 
 
 o