iXTF.HSTATF. COMMKHr I MISSION KEPOI THE UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS LIBRARY 385 Un3lte COIP2. t 6&ni Congress! SENATE f Documknt l td Session f I No. 333 f =================================== _^ TESTIMONY TAKEN BT INTEESTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION AT MINNEAPOLIS, MINN., DECEMBER 17, 18 AND 19, 1906, AND AT CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 20 AND 21, 1906, IN THE MATTER OP CAR SHORTAGE AND OTHER INSUFFICIENT TRANSPORTATION FACILITIES AND EEPOETS THEEEON BY COMMISSIONEES LANE AND HA RLAN . WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFPICB V 1907 THE INTERSTATE COMMERCE COMMISSION. Hon. MARTIN A. KNAPP, of New York, Chairman. Hon. JUDSON C. CLEMENTS, of Georgia. Hon. CHARLES A. PROUTY, of Vermont. Hon. FRANCIS M. COCKRELL, of Missouri. Hon. FRANKLIN K. LANE, of California. Hon. EDGAR E. CLARK, of Iowa. Hon. JAMES S. HARLAN, of Illinois. ED\A/^ARD A. MOSELEY, Secretary. \ LETTER OF TRANSMITTAL. Interstate Commerce Commission, Wiishington, February 19, J907. Sir: The Interstate Commerce Coxmnission has the honor to trans- mit herewith in response to resolution of the United States Senate, dated February 15, 1907, a transcript of the testimony recently taken cj\3) by the Commisssion at Minneapolis and Chicago, respecting the short- age of cars for the movement of freight, f Very respectfully, Martin A. Knapp, J- Chairman. o The President of the Senate of the United States. ^ s O V t I o cJ u 4J V r' 3780(>.' CAR SHORTAGE AND INSUFFICIENT TRANSPORTATION FACILITIES. United States Court Room, Minneapolis, Minn., December 17, 1906 — 10.05 a. m. Commissioner Lane. Please give me your attention, gentlemen. This investigation into the general subject of car shortage is under- taken upon the initiative of the Intei"state Commerce Commission itself, under the general power vested in that body by section 12 of the act to regulate interstate commerce, and related sections of said act. The inquiry will be prosecuted in other portions of the country, but it is appropriate that it should open here, because it was prompted b^ the facts which developed at the hearing recently had in this city covering the relations of the grain elevators and the railroads, wherein it appeared that a large number of line elevatoi-s were at that time filled with grain and had been closed; that the grain buyers had in some cases posted notices upon their elevators stating that they could no longer buy grain Decause the railroads had failed to move the grain already on hand, and that as a result many of the farmers of the Northwest, being unable to market their crops, were without funds to meet their obligations or provide against the demands of the oncoming winter. A controversy arose at the said hearing as to the responsibility for the deplorable conditions then prevailing. On the part of the rail- roads, Mr. James J. Hill presented the claim that the terminal ele- vators were not of sufficient capacity for the needs of the crops. This view was controverted by Mr. Heffelfinger, representing the grain elevators, who cited figures showing that the terminal elevators were almost empty and had been so throughout the ^rain-receiving season. It is the purpose of the Commission at this time to enter fully into the conditions and i)ractices respecting the movement of freight which obtains in the Northwest, and to search for the reasons or causes which tend to justify or condemn the same. We wish to know whether the shipper or the consignee is in whole or in part to blamt*, either in his method of delivering or receiving freight, or whether the fault lies with the carriers, because of eitner their indifference to public necessity, their lack of foresight in providing necessary equipment and terminal facilities, or their too great regard for interests not wholly compatible with the most efficient transporta- tion service. We wish to know how far whatever delinquencies that are apparent may be excused l)ocause of the unparalloled and not to be expected crop, and whether all reasonable effort was made to meet the ever-growing demands of this section of the country. We 6 6 CAB SHOBTAGB. wish to learn also how present conditions may be promptly improveer to witness] ? Mr. Moore. I think the average bushelase per car of wheat in 1905 was 957 bushels. In 1906 it was 1,036 busliels. Com is a little less; oats a little less ; rye is greater ; barley is greater, and flax is greater. Mr. Marble. Heavier cars? Mr. MooRE. Heavier loads. Mr. Marble. Now, you have compiled these figures — what do these figures show? To what do they relate [indicating] ? Mr. MooRE. In 1898 there was the largest crop we ever received at Duluth. The receipts for the calendar year amounted to 100,000,000 bushels, and during the period mentioned, August 1 to December 13 of that year, the number of cars received was 79,220, with 62,000,776 bushels. Mr. Marble. Did you have the same railroads then as now? Mr. Moore. Practically. Mr. Marble. You have communications with you, addressed to 14 CAB SHORTAGE. you by members of your organization, relating to the movement of cars, have you not ? Mr. Moore. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Let me see those. [The witness hands papers to Mr. Marble.] Have you had considerable trouble — you and members of your board of trade — in getting the delivery of cars shipped from the country this year ? Mr. AlooRE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What has been your trouble ? Mr. Moore. Well, that is hard to tell. Mr. Marble. The trouble was you could not get the cars, was it not? Mr. MooRE. The trouble was that a long time — a seemingly un- reasonable time — elapsed between the date of shipment and the de- livery of cars to the elevators. Mr. Marble. Was there one company only that suffered from that, or the entire market ? Mr. MooRE. The entire market, I think. Mr. Marble. Was the delay in getting the car into Duluth, or in spotting it at the elevator after arrival in the yards at Duluth; or do you know ? Mr. MooRE. I think both ; in getting the cars to Duluth, and after they were brought there — the yards were in somewhat of a congested condition. Mr. JVIarble. You have communicated with the railroad officials of your city regarding that congestion, have you not? Mr. MooRE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is this a copy of a letter which you sent, prepared by you ? [Hands paper to witness.] Mr. Moore (examining paper). Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. This is a letter sent to the agents of the Great North- em, the Northern Pacific, and the Omaha Railway, and is as follows [reading] : Duluth Boabd of Trade, Secketaby's Office, Duluth, Minn., November 20, 1906. Sent to agents Great Northern Railway, Northern Pacific Railway, Omaha Railway. Deab Sib : The grain dealers on this board are confronted with this proposi- tion, which to them is an exceedingly important and serious one, viz, they have cars en route to the head of the Lakes and also on track here that have been here twentj' days, and many a longer period. These cars they are unable to have transferred to the elevators. Further, that much of this grain is sold on contract for November delivery, and in consequence of inadequate facilities or other reasons on the part of the railroads these dealers are compelled to suifer a great loss. Is it not possible for your road to take prompt and Immediate action to avoid a further loss to our dealers? We think such action on j'our part imperative and due to the shippers and receivers of grain here. It seems to us that, knowing as you did in advance that there was a large crop to handle, you have been derelict in your duty as common carriers in not making proper pro- vision for delivery of the grain. Hoping that this will be received In the spirit In which It Is sent and that an immediate remedy will be applied, we remain. Respectfully, Duluth Boabd of Trai«, By H. B. MooBE,£r6cretar]/. CAB SHORTAGE. 15 I will ask that that be put in the record and marked as Exhibit 1 to Mr. Moore's testimony. (Received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 1 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Mr. Marble. You received replies, did you not, from railroad officials ? Mr. MooRE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is that a copy of a reply received from the superin- tendent of the Northern Pacific Railroad at your city [handing paper to witness] ? Mr. Moore (examining paper). Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. The copy was made by you, was it not? Mr. Moore. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I will read the letter. [Reading:] DuLUTH, Minn., November 21, IDOG. Board of Trade, II. D. Moore, Secretary, Duhtth: This will ncknowledge your fnvor of the 20th Instnnt relative to handling all grain destined to head of Lakes. The Northern Pacific Railway certainly appreciate the serious condition and the importance of moving promptly all prain to the head of the Lakes and placing it to the elevators. I think you are, however, in error in stating that many cars have l)een lying in the Duluth yard for the past twenty days and that further investigation will develop the fact that these oars have not yet reached Duluth, but are en route. I can assure you personally and officially that we will do everything In our power to see that you are given the best possible service, as it is certainly to our Interest as well as yours to move the cars promptly and have them unloaded and returned for another car of grain. The elevatoi-s, to the best of my knowledge, have been doing splendid work during the entire fall, being willing to work on Sundays when required and have been taking care of the grain very promptly that has been delivered to them. Again assuring you personally and on the part of the Northern Pacific of our hearty cooperation to the fullest extent, I am, Youi-s, very resi)ectfully, E. C. BuiNcnABD, Superintendent. I Mill ask that that be put in the record and marked " Exhibit No. 2 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 2 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Commissioner Lane. Did j'ou find out whether your statement or the superintendent's was correct as to those cai-s being on the way twenty days? Mr. Moore. I compared with the agent of the Northern Pacific. In comparing the cars received by that road, he informed me that the difference between his figures and mine must bo accounted for in the cars in transit. Commissioner Lane. By what? Mr. Moore. That it must be accounted for by the cars in transit Commissioner Harlan. Well, did you make any personal investi- gation around the yards at Duluth to ascertain yourself, or have any- one do it, to ascertain the number of cars on tracks tliere for any given time ? Mr. MooRE. Not personally ; no, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Did you have anyone do it for you? Mr. Moore. No, sir. Conmiissioncr Harlan. In other words, arc you f-epared now to 16 CAB SHORTAGE. say that at any given time there Trere a great many cars on the tracks at Duluth that ought to have been switched over to the elevators and were not in the proper time? Mr. Moore. I know that it was common talk with the members on the floor of the exchange that there were a great many cars that they could not get disposition of or delivery at the elevators. Mr. Marble. It was the talk that that delay was before the cars reached Duluth or after they came into Duluth, or was it both? Mr. MooRE. Both. Mr. Marble. Is this a copy of a letter received from the superin- tendent of the Great Northern Railway [exhibiting letter to witness] ? Mr. MooRE (examining paper). Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I will read the letter. [Reading:] SuPEEioB, Wis., November 22, 1906. Mr. H. B. Moore, Secretary Duluth Board of Trade, Duluth, Minn. My Dear Sir: Answering yours of the 20tli, I regret being obliged to confess that our Superior cTud Duluth yards are very badly congested by reason of a big increase in business, which consists not so much of the inbound-grain busi- ness as it does of the outbound coal and merchandise business, taxing our yard facilities to their utmost. At this time of the year and, perhaps, especially this year, we have a good deal of trouble to secure sufficient train men to handle our yard work. We have power enough and nearly, if not quite, cars enough, and are making every pos- sible effort to straighten things up by delivering the old eastbound loads and sending out the old westboimd loads — that is, we are making a special effort to move delayed cars. I think we are in a little better shape now than we have been for some time and hope to make still further improvement to-morrow and later. The congestion In our yard is not entirely our fault, but, to some limited extent the result of congestion in the yards of neighboring railways. I think the Northern Pacific and the Omaha Railway are in about as bad condition as ourselves. I assure you, however, that we are sparing no efforts and no ex- pense to bring about better conditions. There may be a grain of comfort in the knowledge that we are planning to make extensive improvements in our yard just as soon as the work can be done next spring, which, I hope, will put us in shape to avoid trouble of this kind another year. In closing I wish to thank yourself and other members of the board for being so patient with us in our troublesome times and plead for further in- aulgcuce for a couple of weeks. Yours, truly, D. M. Philbin, Assistant General Superintendent. Mr. IMarble. I will ask that this be marked " Exhibit No. 3 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 3 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Commissioner Lane. What is the date of that letter? Mr. Marble. November 22. [Addressing witness.] Did you re- ceive replies from another railroad company than these two* Mr. Moore. I received a verbal reply from the Omaha. Mr. Marble. What was that verbal reply? Mr. Moore. That they had made a clean up of nearly all of the cars in their yards. By way of explanation, it Avould be well to say that tlicy handle but a few cars of grain at Duluth, at the best, and the whole of them would not congest a very large yard. Mr. Marble. Did you address any communication to the Soo Rail- way? CAB SHOBTAGB. 17 Mr. Moore. No; for the reason that the Xorthem Pacific handled the Soo and Milwaukee business principally. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not the elevators at that point have made delays in unloading cars this year? Mr. Moore. I think the revei-se is true — that they have not Mr. Marble. The statement made in that letter is correct, then, is it, that they have handled cars promptly ? Mr. MooRE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have letters^ written you as secretary, by grain commission merchants of your city? Mr. Moore. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And the figures attached are made up by your mem> bers? Mr. MooHE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Relating to the length of time cars were moved ? Mr. Moore. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I have here a letter dated Duluth, Minn., December 15, 1906, to H. B. Moore, secretary, city, and it is as follows: Dbab Sib : There has been more or less talk and discussion in regard to cars being delayed in transit this last fall and we wish to give yoxi a few of the cases that happened to cars handled by us. In some cases the loss to the shipper was considerable. The delay was not all before Inspection, as list No. 2 will show several cars from inspection to imloadiiig more than two weeks. List No. 3 will show a few cars shipped during November that have not been inspected at this date. Yours, truly, McKindlet & Nicholls. "Where are the cars inspected ? Mr. Moore. At Cass Lake, Sandstone, and Staples. Mr. Marble. How far from Duluth? Mr. Moore. Sandstone is probably 50 miles — I do not know the distance. Cass Lake, I do not know the distance; probably 50 or 75 miles. Mr. Marble. And Staples is about how far ? Mr. Moore. Staples would be a little farther than that. Mr. Marble. A hundred miles? Mr. Moore. I think so. Mr. Marble. So that the reference to inspection means that the grain was all that length of time in going 50 or 75 or 100 miles, or thereabouts ? Mr. Moore. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I will read just a few of the detentions of the cars. The attached sheets show the date insjiected, when unloaded, the initial, the number of the car, and the elevator. Here is one inspected November 7, unloaded November 26. Here is another inspected November 7 and unloaded November 24. Here is another inspected November 7 and unloaded November 27. Here is one inspected the 8th of November and unloaded the 28th of No- vember. Here is one inspected November 12 and unloaded December 4. Here is another inspected November 14 and unloaded December 1. Another inspected November 30 and unloaded December 14. Then again here is one insp)ected October 15 and unloaded October 80. Here is another inspected on the 19th and unloaded November S. Doc. 833, 59-2 2 18 CAB SHOBTAOB. 28. Here is one inspected the 20th of October and unloaded No- vember 3. Then here is one inspected the 21st of October and un- loaded the 14th of November. And so you will find it on down. Where does this grain come from — entirely from North Dakota ? Mr. MooRE. I think not. Mr. Marble. Then here is the date advised of shipment, the date inspected, the initial, and the car number. Here is one where the date advised of shipment is November 6, which was not yet inspected. Then here is one, advised of shipment November 17, three cars, which were not yet inspected. Then here is one of November 24, which was not yet inspected. I will ask to have this put in the record and marked " Exhibit No. 4 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 4 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Mr. Marble. Then I have a statement which was furnished you as secretary by the Minnesota Grain Company. Mr. Moore. I think it was. [Reading :] This company has between thirty-five and forty thousand bushels of flax loaded at pyder, Douglas, and Plaza, in the Soo line. It was loaded in the middle of November and in plentj- of time to get it in on November sales, but up to December 12 the cars were still on track at the stations, loaded, and no prospect of getting them moved. Customers' losses over $2,000 on this lot alone. There are here several elevator companies at various places show- ing the cars they shipped, etc. Minot station, N. Dak., on the Soo and Great Northern lines has received 482,000 bushels of grain up to December 1, and on that date had none left in the stations. All had been shipped out, showing cars were plenty at competitive points. The Robinson Elevator there received 75,000 bushels on the Great Northern and got every bushel loaded out, so he could get it on November sales. Now, there are some figures relating to the handling of the cars on the Soo road, the Great Northern, and so on. I will read just a few of those. The cars and numbers are given in each instance. The Soo shipped from Ransom, N. Dak., a car on September 9, which was unloaded in Duluth October 2. The Soo also shipped a car from Columbus, N. Dak., on September 12, which arrived in Duluth November 10. The Soo also shipped a car from Columbus, N. Dak., on September 18, which arrived at Duluth October 25. The Soo also shipped a car from Kermit, N. Dak., on September 19, which arrived in Duluth October 24. It also shipped a car from Columbus, N. Dak., on September 18, which arrived in Duluth on October 29. The Great Northern shipped a car from Granville, N. Dak., Sep- tember 21, which arrived in Duluth October 28. There are a great number of other cars with their numbers given there. I will ask that these sheets be marked " Exhibit No. 5 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same are received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 5 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") CAB SHORTAGE. 19 Mr. Marble. Here is another letter. [Reading] : DuLUTH, Minn., December 15, 1906. H. B. Moore. Esq., Secretary Board of Trade, DuUith, Minn. Deab Sib: Attached please find a list of cars shipped to me on various roads, showing the date of shipment, shipping ix>int, car number, date unloaded at elevator, and the numl>er of days these cars were In transit. All the cars in- cluded In the list were twenty days or over on the road to Duluth, and the facts I furnish j'ou are true to my best knowledge and beUef. I have several other cars at the present time, which have been in transit over twenty days and not yet heard from. I am, Yours, truly, William Dalbymfle. Following is a list of cars covering about a page and a (juarter, very finely written ; probably forty. These show date of shipment, the North Dakota point of origin, the car number, the day unloaded, and the numlwr or days in transit. The number of days in transit run all the way from twenty, twenty-two, twenty-three, thirty-three, thirty-five, thirty-seven, forty, forty-seven, twenty-three, twenty- eight, fifty-four, fifty-nine, forty, twenty-three, thirty-five, and so on down. The smalLast seems to be twenty or twenty-one, and tho longest fifty-eight or fifty-nine. Commissioner Lane. ^Miat would be the total length of that haul? Mr. Marble. The names of the points are given here. They are ail North Dakota points, and I would rather look it up exactly before attempting to answer. Commissioner Lane. Well, I would like to know the average on that list and the haul per day. Mr. Marble. I will ask that this be marked " Exhibit No. 6 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 6 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Mr. Marble. This is another letter received by you [handing paper to witness] ? Mr. Moore. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I will read it. [Reading] : The Gbain Pboducebs Elevatob Compant, Duluth, Minn., December 15, 1906. Mr. H. B. Moose, Secretary Duluth Board of Trade, Duluth, Minn. Deab Sib: You requested us this a. m. to make you a statement of the cars we have had delinquent In reaching their destination. While we could enumerate at least 20 cars which have been out in this crop twenty days and over after having l)een ordered to their destination by us. we will only call your s|KH'ial attention to Soo car No. 10!>48, loaded with barley, which was ordered to elevator " T " at Superior on November 7. IIKK], to the Globe Elevator at Su|>erlor and we re<'elved the unload on the above-named car ftn the 13th day of December. As you will note, this car was thirty-six daj^i in getting a little over 2 miles. This is the worst case I think we have had, and the only case which we wish to call your attention to. Very truly, yours, Gbain Pboducebs' Elevatob C!o. I will ask that the same be put in the record and marked " Exhibit No. 7 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 7 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") 20 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. Marble. I have a number of other letters of the same purport. I want to put them in just as rapidly as I can. All of these letters were received by you as secretary of the Duluth Board of Trade? Mr. Moore. Yes. Mr. Marble. Here is a letter from Randall-Gee & Mitchell, of Duluth, Minn., dated December 15, 1906, which is : H. B. Moore, Secretary, Duluth Board of Trade, Duluth, Minn. Deab Sib: Complying with your request, we attach herewith a list of cars, giving car initial and niunber, point of shipment, date of shipment, and date of arrival in Duluth. In making up this list, we have not included any car that was less than fourteen days in transit. We could give you a very long list if we included all cars that were ten days and over on the road. Yours, very truly, Randaix-Gee & Mitchell. There are cases shown in which this company was advised of ship- ments on the ninth month and the fifth day, which arrived the same month and the twenty-seventh day. Then there is delay from the tenth month and first day to the tenth month and seventeenth day, the tenth month and tenth day to the tenth month and twenty-fifth day, from the eleventh month and fifteenth day to the twelfth month and tenth day, and so on. The information is given on the sheet attached to the letter, and I will ask that these papers be put in and marked " Exhibit No. 8 to Mr. Moore's testimony. (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 8 to ^Ir. Moore's testimony.") Mr. Marble. Here is a letter from H. Poehler Company, Duluth, Minn., dated December 15, 1906, addressed to H. B. Moore, secretary, which says: Herewith please find list of cars showing date of shipment and time of arrival and unloading at Duluth. It gives the date of the bill of lading, the initial of the car, the car number, the station, and the date of unloading. Here is one that was billed the ninth month and thirteenth day, and unloaded October 15. Here is one of the tenth month and twenty-ninth day, unloaded November 26. Here is one of the tenth month and twelfth day, Clark, S. Dak., on the Omaha, unloaded November 26. And the last one is the tenth month and second day, Soo car, Drake, N. Dak., which had not arrived December 14. I will ask that this be put in the record and marked " Exhibit No. 9 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 9 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Moore, did vou make anv complaint to the carriers — to the railroad companies about these delays ? Mr. Moore. Nothing except what you heard in that letter I wrote them. Commissioner Harlan. What I want to get at is this, did you get from the railroad companies any explanation of the delays on par- ticular shipments? I heard what you said about the congestion in the yards. But these particular shipments in here where delays extend OAR SHOBTAGB. 21 from twenty-one to fifty-eight days — did you get any explanation from the raihoad companies, as to the delay in any particular case? Mr. Moore. I did not. I think the men handling the cars attended to that part of it. Mr. Marble. Here is a letter from the Atwood-Larson Company, of Duluth, Minn., dated December 15, 190G, to Mr. H. B. Moore, secretary, city. Deab Sib: As |)er your request we attach partial list of cars, which we con- sider were an unreasonable len);th of time in transit. With a very few excep- tions we have made no mention of cars which were not thirty days or more In transit. To the best of our knowledge and belief, the lists are correct Yours, truly, AtWOOD-LaBSON Ck>UPANT, By H. J. Atwood, President. The list follows, as in the papers before, and here is a car shipped November 16, Maddock, N. Dak., not yet delivered. Here is one of November 10, Battle Lake, twenty-five days in transit. Commissioner Lane. Now, take the last instance. Can you tell me what the normal time is ; what time in other years has that same road taken to transport freight from one point, from that particular point to Duluth? Mr. Moore. It would only be an opinion that grain delivery from Dakota points within ten days would be within a reasonable time. Commissioner Lane. Normally in 1905, and in 1904, and the pre- ceding years, it would take about ten days' time, whereas this year it has taken twenty to twenty-five days? Mr. MooRE. tt has taken a great deal more time than in some years? Mr. Marble. Here is one car forty-one days in transit from Wil- ton, and another forty-four days in transit from Wilton. Then there is one on November 28 from Sneyenne, not delivered yet. November 24, November 28, again, December 5, December 10, December 11; all of them not delivered yet. The second list shows cars on the way from thirty-eight days to sixty days, from North Dakota points; and another list, which is a list of cars shipped during the season of 190G-7, forty-two days down to thirty-two days; and cars that were shipped in November which have not yet been delivered, Novem- ber 13, etc. I will ask that the same be put in the record and marked Exhibit No. 10, to Mr. Moore's testimony. (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 10, to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Mr. Marble. Here is a statement from the John Miller Company, ffrain commission, of Duluth, Minn., dated December 15, 1906, to Mr. Moore, secretary, Duluth, which says: In reply to your Inquiry regarding the time of cars of grain on the road after shipment, we give you the following figures. He shows 580 cars received previous to November 24; there were 318 received at Duluth ten days or less after shipment, 214 in ten to twenty days after shipment, 37 in twenty to thirty Javs after ship- ment, 2 in thirty-three days after shipment, 1 in thirty-five days after shipment, 2 in thirty-six days after shipment, 1 in forty-one 22 CAB SHORTAGE. days after shipment, 1 in forty-five da;^s after shipment, 1 in forty- seven days after shipment, 1 in forty-nine days after shipment, 1 in fifty-two days after shipment, 1 in seventy days after shipment. Of these 376 were unloaded in five days or less after arrival, 153 in six to ten days, 32 in eleven to fifteen days, 14 in sixteen to twenty days, 3 in twenty-two days, 1 in twenty-eight days, and 1 in twenty- nine days. I will ask that this be put in the record and marked " Exhibit No. 11 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 11 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Mr. Marble. Then here is a letter of the same tenor from Freemire, Remund & Co., dated December 15, 1906, which I ask to have put in the record and marked " Exhibit No. 12 to Mr. Moore's testimony." (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 12 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Mr. Marble. Then here is one from Arbogast & Ball, dated Decem- ber 15, 1906, inclosing a list of cars which they consider have been delayed an unreasonable length of time. I ask that this be put in evidence and marked as an exhibit to Mr. Moore's testimony. (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 13 to Mr. Moore's testimony.") Commissioner Harlan. "WTiat is the scope of that lot of cars you have given — the number of days after arrival ? Does that mean that the elevator delayed in unloading the cars, or was the delay in switch- ing the cars? Mr. Marble. The time is after inspection. It might be a delay in moving into Duluth or in the yard in Duluth or at the elevator in unloading. We will have testimony later of railroad men, and we will have other witnesses, I presume, as to whether this delay was in the yard of the company or between the point of shipment and Duluth, which I thyik will bring it out fully. Mr. Moore. I think it is both places. Mr. Marble. And have you another list of figures you have pre- pared ? Mr. Moore. I have not. Mr. Marble. Have you made any investigation so that you know the reason of these delays ? Mr. MooRE. No, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all. Commissioner Harlan. IMr. Moore, have you stated what the total elevator capacity of Duluth is ? Mr. MooRE. 'fhirty-four millions. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know on any given date in this month what the actual number of bushels in the elevators was, say, Deceml>er 13; do you happen to know? Mr. MooRE. I know that night before last there were 1,000,000 bush- els of wheat and 1,000,000 bushels of flax in the elevators. Those were the two largest. Commissioner Harlan. That was the total number of bushels of all sorts of grain ? Mr. MooRE. No ; wheat and flax. CAB SHORTAGE. 23 Commissioner Harlan. Can you give any general idea of the total number of bushels, including all grain in the elevators, night before last? Mr. MooRE. No; I could not. Commissioner Lane. Would it be under 6,000,000? Mr. MooRE. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. They have approximately 30,000,000 capacity not in use? Mr. MooRE. Not quite as much as that. The total capacity in all the elevators at the head of the Lakes is 34,000,000. Commissioner Lane. Well, there would be 28,000,000 difference. Commissioner Hari^n. Now, do you know what the present con- ditions of the country elevators are ? Mr. MooRE. I do not. Commiasioner Harlan. Have you any understanding about it — do you understand whether they are full or empty? Mr. MooRE. I understand that in some places they are full and that grain is piled up outside. Commissioner Harlan. Grain that would naturally come to your market if there were cars to move it? Mr. MooRE. A good deal of it. Commissioner Harlan. Do vou have any idea what the number of bushels is in that territory, the grain in the country now, waiting to be moved to vour market? Mr. MooRE. There have been various estimates of the crop. The early estimates have been reduced somewhat. It would be a hard matter at this time to estimate the amount in the shippers hands. Commissioner Harlan. What seems to you to be a conservative estimate, from all the information you have, as to the amount of grain in country elevators and piled up outside waiting to be moved toDuluth? Mr. MooRE. I hardly dare to make an estimate. Commi5»ioner Harlan. Can you tell us some of the estimates you have heard, from reputable sources? Mr. MooRE. I have heard this, that there was probably upward of 30 per cent of their grain yet in the farmers' hands, or in the elevatoi*s in the country. Commissioner Harlan. Well, you mean grain that is ready to move when cars are supplied ? Mr. Moore. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Does that seere to you to be a conservative estimate from all the information you have? Mr. M(x)RE. Fairly so. Commissioner Harlan. Is it your understanding that the amount of grain held in the country at this time is in excess of the normal amount in other vears at this same period ? Mr. Moore. Tfiat is my impression ; yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Well, Mr. Moore, I would like to know whether there is a general complaint at the country elevators tribu- tary to your market of the failure of railroads to supply cars to move grain from them? Mr. M(K)RE. I think there is quite a general complaint of that character. 24 CAB SHOBTAGB. • G)mTnissioner Harlan. Now, is there any general excuse that is given by the railroads — any general explanation for their failure to supply cars? Do they say they have not cars or locomotives, or what do they say ? Mr.' Moore. I think that question is answered quite fully in the letters addressed to me by the agents of the Northern Pacific Commissioner Harij^n. In a particular case? Mr. MooRE. Not in particular cases, I do not think. Mr. C. W. BuNN. I represent the Northern Pacific and I would like to ask a few questions, if j'ou please. Commissioner Lane. All right. Mr. Bunk. Mr. Moore, you have shown that the elevators at Duluth are about empty now ? Mr. MooRE. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. And when did navigation close ? Mr. MooRE. I think the boats were loaded up to about the 11th or l-2th. Mr. BuNN. The 11th or 12th of December? Mr. MooRE. Yes, sir. Mr. Buxx. What was the condition of your elevators during the month of November? Mr. MooRE. They were receiving and shipping all the time. Mr. BuNN. How did the amount of grain compare then with what it is since navigation closed? Mr. MooRB. I do not know. I could not give that to you. Mr. BuNN. You said there were about 6.000,000 bushels there now ? Is that a fair showing of what there was during November ? Mr. MooRE. There was a large shipment of grain during November. Mr. BuNN. Was not there very much more grain in your elevators for the month of November than since the boats have stopped running? Ml". MooRE. Possibly. Mr. Marble. iVIr. Moore, there has been a spread in the price of grain between Minneapolis and Duluth all this season, has there not ? Mr. MooRE. I could not tell you. Mr. Marble. And has not grain been worth more in Duluth than Minneapolis? Mr. Moore. I could not tell you. Commissioner Harlan. The Duluth grain moves out over the Lakes usually, does it not? Mr. MooRE. Most of it. Conmiissioner Harlan. Is there any shipment by rail to Chicago? Mr. MooRE. That is a comparatively small amount. Commissioner Harlax. That is all. Commissioner Lane. That is all, Mr. Moore. The witness was excused. Conmiissioner Lane. Call your next witness. George Spencer, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. You are president of the Duluth Board of Trade, are you, Mr. Spencer ? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And also in the grain business! OAB SHORTAGE. 25 Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbi^. You have terminal elevators at Duluth and Superior! Mr. Spencer. I am interested in some. Mr. Marble. Interested in the business? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And have you country elevators? Mr. Spencer. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Line elevators? Mr. Spencer. Nothing we operate. Mr. Marbiji. You receive shipments from* the country? Mr. Spencer. To some extent. We are large receivers — grain shipping merchants. Mr. Marble. And you buy on the floor? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Can you tell whether or not the elevators at Duluth and Superior have made delays in unloading cars this season? Mr. Spencer. I do not think they have ever. Mr. Marble. You have heard no complaint? Mr. Spencer. No. Mr. Marble. Have your elevators made any delay f Mr. Spencer. They have not. Mr. Marble. They have not? Mr. Spencer. No, sir. Mr. Marble. The figures as to the amount stored given by Mr. Moore ; are they correct as far as you know ? Mr. Spkxcer. I do not know what the amounts were. I do not think at any time during the fall there was more than ten or twelve millions of bushels of grain in store in the elevators and the amount is a good deal less now, because the shipping season is over. Mr. Marble. Is there less in the elevators now than the normal amount at this time of the year ? Mr. Spencer. I do not think there is. Mr. Marble. About the same? Mr. Spencer. About the same, I think. Mr. Marble. The Duluth elevators are cleared out as far as pos- sible before navigation closes, and then they fill up afterwards, as grain comes in for shipment out in the spring? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Grain that comes into Duluth after the close of navigation remains over until the navigation season opens? Mr. Spencer. Most of it. Mr. Marble. Some goes out on the Omaha road? Mr. Spencer. A very little. Mr. Marble. And a little on the Soo? Mr. Spencer. A very little. Mr. Marble. That is very small by your company ? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Duluth is a storage point after navigation closes? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Has grain been worth more this .season in Duluth than in Minneapolis f Mr. Spencer. I think it has, a little. Wheat has sometimes been worth half a cent to a cent more, but as a general thing the Minne- apolis rates have been fully equal to ours. 26 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Do the cars shipped to you come through in good time? Mr. Spencer. We have a good deal of delay. Mr. Marble. Do you know at what points these delays were made? Whether before coming into the Duluth yards or after arrival ? Mr. Spencer. I think there has been more or less delay in starting from the originating stations and delays along the roads. Mr. Marble. And what you say applies to delays in the terminals as well? Mr. Spencer. There has been considerable delay in the terminals. Mr. Marble. And what you say applies to shipments received over every road? Mr. Spencer. The principal delay — the principal grain we get is over the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific and the Soo, al- though the Soo road grain is handled either by the Great Northern or the Northern Pacific and is brought in over one or the other of those roads, and there is where the principal complaint is made as against those three roads — because they have handled more. Mr. Marble. And this complaint has been as to the slowness of movement, has it? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. As well as inability to get cars to put the grain into ? Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is there anything you wish to offer ? Mr. Spencer. No, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all. Commissioner Lane. Mr. Bunn, do you wish to ask any questions? Mr. Bunn. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. That is all, Mr. Spencer. (The witness was excused.) Commissioner Lane. I wish to say at this time that if there are any attorneys for the railroad here who desire to interrogate any of these witnesses they are quite at liberty to do so. Now, Mr. Marble, call your next witness, please. O. G. Major, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. You reside at Hope, N. Dak.? Mr, Major. Yes, sir. Mr. ^Larble. And you are president of the Minnesota Farmers' Exchange ? Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And that exchange is an organization of elevators — farmers' elevators — is it not? Mr. Major. Yes. Mr. Marble. And where have you elevators ? Mr. Major. We have some five in Minnesota. We have one at Pettit, down here, Elko, Long Prairie, Brownsville, and Ashby. That is all that we conduct. Then we have stock in a good many elevators in North Dakota. I think there are about 27 in North Dakota. Mr. Marble. Twenty-seven points in North Dakota? , Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Local elevators. Mr. Marble. On what roads? CAR SHORTAGE. 2^ Mr. Major. Most of them are on the Great Northern. Some are on the Soo, and some are on the Northern Pacific. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with tlie conditions at those country elevators ? Mr. Major. Pretty fairly; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with the conditions at other points in North Dakota ? Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you been travcliufj recently? Mr. Major. I have traveled some in the last two or three weeks. Mr. Marble. Over what portions of the State of North Dakota? Mr. Major. I have been up on the Soo — as far as possible on the Soo — and on the Anita branch, and to the end of the line. Nobody trails very much there now. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with the situation so far as the coal supply is concerned ? Mr. Major. I am, to some extent, at certain points. Mr. Marble. At what points? Mr. Major. Well, for instance, at Hope and Anita and other points where they write to me about it. We have no coal or wood in , Hope at all at present. I got a notice this morning by telephone to try and ^et them coal at Duluth. There is none there unhjss they have got it there since. Commissioner Harlan. Hoav far is that from here? Mr. Major. About 300 miles. Commissioner Harlan. How much of a community is it? Mr. Major. A thousand people. Commissioner Lane. What are they doing for fuel? Mr. Major. Us fellows that had it laid .in divided up with the fellows that haven't got it. We have been doing that, and when we get it all divided up I suppose we will have to quit. Mr. Marble. How about the country around that point — the farm- ers? Have they fuel? Mr. Major. No. We had a carload in the hotel, and my boys have been distributing it out to farmers, and that is very nearly gone, and I got a telephone this morning to go to Duluth to see if I could get some coal in some way or other. Mr. Marble. Do the farmers bum coal ? Mr. Major. Coal and wood. Commissioner Lane. What have you done with the railroad com- pajiv to ask them to get in the coal ? Mr. Major. They don't bring any. We have our coal dealer there, who is a man that is in the coal business, and I guess he is about as good as any of them there, and he tells us that he has 30 or 40 cars ordered and has had them ordered for the last two or three months. Commissioner Lane. Ordered from where? Mr. Major. From Duluth. Commissioner Lane. That is your only source of supply, is it? Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. What reason do they give for not delivering? Mr. Major. They don't give any. We don t know why they don't put it in. They simply claim they can't get it. They are bringing up empty cars, however, right along by us there. 28 OAB SHORTAGB. Commissioner Lane. Do you know where those empty cars are destined ? Mr. Major. What? Commissioner Lane. Do yon know where the empty cars are destined ? Mr. Major. They drop some at the other stations. They drop some of them there at those other stations, and while they may not be very many, they are enough to supply us with coal if they bring them lull. I understand there is no shortage of coal in Duluth. Commissioner Lane. Is there anybody besides this one coal dealer in vour town? Has anybody else made an application for coal in Duluth? Mr. Major. Of course, they are not in the coal business and there would be no use. I ordered a couple of carloads of coal, and we could not buy it, and they told me that they would not sell me a car- load of coal. Commissioner Lane. Now, just what do you mean? Mr. Major. I ordered two or three carloads of coal and the man in Duluth would not sell me. Commissioner Lane. What answer did he give you ? Mr. Major. He wrote me and wanted to know if I was a dealer. And of course I wrote him back and told him that I was not, and then he said that he could not ship me because he had to ship to his dealers and protect his regular coal dealers. Commissioner Lane. You have only one retail dealer there ? Mr. Major. That is all. Commissioner Lane. And he has made demand for 30 or 40 cars, and had his order in two or three months ago ? Mr. Major. Yes, sir ; he has had the coal ordered for about two months, and he can't get it in, and we can't get wood in there. Commissioner Harlan. Do you get wood from Duluth ? Mr. Major. The wood comes from here in Minnesota; from these stations along here and down the line. Commissioner Lane. Is this a competitive point of yours, or is there only one railroad in there? Mr. Major. One railroad is all. Commissioner Lane. Is there any place near there that is competi- tive? Mr. Major. Nothing within 40 miles. Commissioner Lane. It is on the Great Northern, is it? Mr. Major. The Great Northern. Mr. Marble. You have described the fuel condition at Hope. What is the condition at other points which you are acquainted with ? Mr. Major. I understood from some fellows that came down on the train with me Wednesday that on the branch they were short of coal and short of fuel. Mr. Marble. Do you understand that there is any suffering? Mr. Major. Oh, no; I do not know as there is yet. Some of us folks were short of kerosene. They didn't have a bit of kerosene over there when I left there, but I got word that a tank had come in since I left. There was not a barrel of kerosene in town last week. We have kerosene there now, but if we have fuel we can sit in the dark and we don't mind that. OAR SHORTAGE. 29 Mr. Marble. Do you know why the dealers don't order coal in the summer months so as to have a supply on hand ? Mr. Major. I want to say for our man there that he ordered this coal early and he usually does. Now. I am satisfied that this man that deals in coal there has had his order in there, but he has told us all the time that he could not get it. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with the conditions at competitive points? Mr. Major. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether there is any difference in the service given at a competitive point and a noncompetitive point? Mr. Major. Nothing but what a man told me about it. Mr. Marble. What was that? Mr. Major. Thev claim that at these competitive points they have not had much trouble. Mr. Marble. Are there any elevators in which you are interested located at competitive points? Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Can you give any comparison of the service given you at competitive points as compared with that at noncompetitive points? Mr. Major. At the competitive points we don't experience much difficulty in getting rid of the wheat. Mr. Marble. At your elevators ? Mr. Major. That is where there is two roads, you know; I have had no complaint there. Mr. Marble. And are your elevators blocked at all at noncompeti- tive points ? Mr. Major. They are blocked all winter. Mr. Marble. You ship also machinery and live stock, do you not? Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do the cars move promptly for you — the cars you are interested in — after being loaded ? Mr. Major. In the live-stock business? Mr. Marble. Take live stock first. Mr. Major. I could ship a carload of wheat from my elevator — my place — get it to Dulutn and get the returns back in a little over thirty days — it would take about that time to make the returns. Mr. Marble. That is wheat. How about live stock? Mr. Major. I have had lots of trouble with live stock. Mr. Marble. What is the trouble — is it in getting into the market? Mr. Major. Well, we have had carloads of stock from my town being held up fortv-eight to sixty-two hours in getting into St. Paul. Mr. Marble. ^Vhat is the distance? Mr. Major. Three hundred miles. Mr. Marble. How quickly has any train come for you ? Mr. Major. I do not think I could get in here under twenty-four hours. Mr. Marble. You have made it in twenty- four? Mr. Major. I think one or two times. Mr. Marble. You consider that fair time? Mr. Major. That would be fair time. Mr. Marble. And what has been your experience with your ship- ments — how about your machinery ? 30 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Major. Well, we have had less delay on machinery. We have not had much trouble on that, I think. Mr. Marble. Your shipments of stock, do they make up trains — stock trains exclusively, and put it through as through freight? Mr. Major. Not as a rule. Mr. Marble. Not as a rule? Mr. Major. They have a regular stock train that runs certain days of the week from Minot. We are cut out at Casselton, which is on our branch, and then our fellows run into Casselton and have to stay over all night. Mr. Marble. Why do they have to wait over all night ? Mr. Major. Because there is no extra train to connect with and we have to wait th6re until some train comes along and picks us up. Ten of us fellows laid over there all one night in Casselton, when we were right in a blizzard, with stock, and we were expecting to catch an extra train. But we did not. Mr. Marble. How many cars did you have? Mr. Major. We had ten. Mr. Marble. Then why did they not put an engine on the ten cars and haul it out? Mr. Major. Mr. Hill don't do that kind of business. He is haul- ing tonnage. We did ask to have them put an engine on and haul it, and they said that they were going to send one up there and we waited all night but they didn't do it. Mr. Marble. I understand that you say that you were to have an engine and that you did not get it ? Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is the limit of time that cattle may be kept in the cars, according to the law ? Mr. Major. I understand the Minnesota law is twenty-four hours. I can not tell you what the Dakota law is on that. Mr. Marble. How long a time have cattle been kept in cars in the last year? Mr. Major. I have shipped some, but I could not actually tell you how long a time they were kept in. Mr. Marble. This inability to furnish transportation — does it affect all country grain dealers alike, or was it inore injurious to one class than another? Mr. Major. I do not know ; the farmers' elevator men have been — we have been having the most trouble. Mr. Marble. How is that? Mr. Major. As a rule — we have got the largest elevator on the line ; and, of course, at these points, where there are big elevators, we get most of the grain. Our elevator companies feel as great a demand for cars as anybody; then we got our proportion of cars cut to one apiece a day. I will tell of my town. Personally, I have got an interest in an elevator there. Our elevator is about as big as any- body else's in town, and we got cut to one car; consequently our' competitors filled up, and they do just as large a business as they can do; if we could get cars to get this stuff out, we could do two to three ti.ues as much business as any other elevator in that town. We can not do any more business, because we can not get our share of the cars in proportion to the amount of business we do. CAB SHOBTAGE. 31 Mr. Marble. What is the eflfect upon the price paid to the farmers? Mr. Major. It has made about 2 cents a bushel difference. Mr. Marble. Have you put any grain on the ground? Mr. Major. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How much? Mr. Major. About 3,000 bushels on when the snow fell. Mr. Marble. At what point? Mr. Major. Hope. Mr. Marble. "\\ ill grain stored on the ground be injured by the elements ? Mr. Major. Well, no; not overly much. It is owing to the nature of the weather. You can put corn in a round pile right easy if it does not snow too much. In such a pile a few inches on the bottom will be lost, and excessive rain, of course, damages it. It is not a good place to put it. Mr. Marbij:. Have you had trouble in getting through the Minne- sota Transfer with shipments of stock? Mr. Major. Delays in shipping? Mr. Marbi^. Yes, sir. Mr. Major. I have with horses. Mr. Marble. How much was that delay? Mr. Major. Well, they hold you up — when I would come in here from the West we go into transfer and we have to hold up about 6 or 7 o'clock in the evening; thej' then bunt you around here until 1 o'clock, and it takes two or three men to keep tliem up. I have rode in the yard all night trying to keep my horses up. They butt Mr. Marble. \ou mean they fall in the cars? Mr. Major. Fall down in the cars. Mr. Marble. And it is your idea that they ought to get started in less time? Mr. Major. They ought to set us some place on a side track and let us remain there until we are ready to go, instead of riding us around all night on a switch engine. I know it is not necessary. I have railroaded about forty years myself. Mr. Marble. And these cars loaded at country points, have they moved promptlv after being loaded? Mr. Major, f'airly well. They have started away anyhow. Mr. Marble. They have been too long on the way ? Mr. Major. Too long on the road. Mr. Marble. Do you know why there is that delay ? Mr. Major. No, sir; I could not tell you about that. Mr. Marble. That is all. (Witness was here excused.) W. G. Holland, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Holland, you reside at Jamestown, N. Dak.? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. A\Tiat is your occupation? Mr. Holland. Chief dispatcher. Mr. Marble. For what road ? Mr. Holland. The Northern Pacific. 32 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. And what are your duties as chief dispatcher? Mr. Holland. Well, it is a complication of duties; it is generally to handle trains over the division. Mr. Marble. You order the trains made up, where you put out special trains? Mr. Holland. Yes — ^you mean certain cars in certain trains? Mr. Marble. Yes. Mr. HoLi^ND. Not without it is special. Mr. Marble. If it is special you do? Mr. Holland. If it is a special shipment, why, we put special cars in the train; but it is hardly ever that way. You mean for freight trains ? Mr. Marble. Freight trains. I am talking about freight trains altogether. Mr. Holland. Oh, yes; why, not without it is freight preference stuff — stock. Mr. Marble. Well, take it in the yards of Jamestown. If loaded cars accumulate, when there are enough to send out a freight, who decides when that freight shall be made up and what cars shall be put in it? Mr. Holland. Why, I do. Mr. Mardije. You do ; and you give your orders to the yard master? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That you want a train at such an hour ? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have a list of cars standing in the yard, and from that list you tell him what cars to put into the train ? Mr. Holland. Tell him how much of a train to put on, according to the size of the engine. Mr. Marble. And do you decide what cars will be put on ? Mr. Holland. No, sir. Mr. Marble. The yard master decides that? Mr. Holland. Yes. Mr. Marble. You give the tonnage and the time the train is to go ? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you also have charge of the distribution of empty cars? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you also have charge of directing the move- ments of the trains on the track in transit? Mr. Holland. Yes. sir. Mr. Marble. And their passing each other? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And the giving of orders to the train, of course, fol lows necessarily as a part of the charge of the movement? Mr. Holland. That is a part. Mr. Marble. In giving orders to the yard master as to the amount of tonnage to put in a train, what is your practice in that matter, as to the load put upon the engine — what per cent of its capacity? Mr. Holland. Why. it depends upon the physical conditions, weather, and so on. There is no hard and fast rule to follow in that regard. The aim is not to give an engine more tonnage than it will go right along with. Mr. Marble. Do you mean that answer exactly ? OAR SHORTAGE. 33 Mr. Holland. I do. Mr. Marble. Vou aim to give it all the tonnage it can carry. Mr. Holland. You misunderstood me. Mr. Marble. I am asking you juiothor question. I understood you. Is it the aim to give the engines all they can carry? Mr. Holland. And make fair time? Mr. Marble. And what do you call fair time? Mr. Holland. Why Mr. Marble. Take* the run from Jamastown to Staples; that dis- tance is 101) miles, is it not? Mr. Holi^\nd. Well, Staples is not on my — in my territory. Take Jamestown to Fargo. Mr. MARiiLE. What is that distance? Mr. Holland. Ninety-three miles. Mr. MARiiLE. Now, for a trainload of dead freight, or grain — loaded as you say you load engines, so they can get along — what do you consider a fair running time from Jamestown to Fargo ^ Mr. Holland. Why, if they have not many trains to meet they can make in about eight or nine hours, usually. Mr. Marble. Do they usually have many trains to meet? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr, Marble. What do they make it in ? Mr. Holland. All the way from six to twelve, thirteen or fourteen houi-s. . Mr. Marble. What would you say — I do not want you to include the oriental freight or the passenger trains, but I want these ship- ments of heavy tonnage ; dead freight — what would you say the aver- age time has l)een those trains have made during the last three months over that route? Mr. Holland. I should judge about twelve or thirteen hours. Mr. Marble. Have you had many trains out longer than that time? Mr. Holland. Yes. Mr. Marble. How much longer? Mr. Holland. Why, they have been out fifteen and sixteen hours, I guess, prob'ibly in some cases seventeen hours. Mr. Marble. You think seventeen hours is the limit they have been out in the hist three months over that route? Mr. Holland. Probably, except in cases whore they have been out longer than that. Mr. Marble. How many exceptional cases do you think there have l)een? Mr. Holland. Well, not having the data at hand, I could not Mr. Marbi^. You brought some train sheets down with you, did you not? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marulk. Where are thev? Mr. Holland. In the room here. Mr. Marulk. And Mr. Winter and Mr. Hawley can get those dur- ing the noon hour and examine them? Mr. Holland, ^'es, sir. Mr. Marble. And they can go over them with you, if you will help them or if you will leave the sheets with theuL Those train sheets will show every train for what period of time? S. Doc. 333, 59-2 3 34 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Holland. October and November. Mr. Marble. From where; between Jamestown and Fariro? Mr. Holland. And also for the entire division. Mr. Marble. And that would be what ? Mr. Holland. Between Fargo and Mandan. Mr. Marble. And they show the running time of each train — time of leaving the point and time of arrival — do they not? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. They do not show the point w^here delays occurred, or causes of the delay, do they ? Mr. Holland. Not in every case ; no, sir. Mr. Marble. I prefer to finish with Mr. Holland after the exami- nation of these tram sheets and to call somebody else now. Mr. BuNN. You said that if it were not for passing so many trains that the trains would run between Fargo and Jamestown in eight or nine hours, if I understand you correctly ? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Bunn. You also said that there were a great many trains to pass ? Mr. Holland. And meet; yes. Mr. Bunn. What has been the condition of the railroads in this section during this fall as to the number of passing trains? Mr. Holland. The number of trains? Mr. Bunn. Yes. Mr. Holland. Why, we have been handling about as many trains as we could conveniently. Mr. Bunn. That is what I want to get at. Have you done any more than you have been doing ordinarily? Mr. Holland. About the usual business. Mr, Bunn. Has the railroad on your division l:>een taxed to its capacity, or about that? Mr. Holland. Probably; between certain points it is. Mr. Bunn. Take it during the month of October — between James- town and Fargo? Mr. Holland. Yes; I think it is; particularly between Sanborn and Oriska. Mr. Marble. Suppose, Mr. Holland, if you made up smaller trains — trains averaging less than the size of those you are running, what would be your condition then? Mr. Holland. Why, we could not handle the trains, because it would make that many more meeting points. It would be a con- gestion of traffic that we could not overcome. It would be too many trains on the road to handle. Mr. Marble. That is all. Just a moment. Suppose instead of making the train half the size, you should take off a hundred tons from each train ; could you not expect to make the round trip in less time than these trains now require to make a round trip ? Mr. Holland. No. Mr. Marble. Would it be made any faster or not? Mr. Holland. Practically no faster. Mr. Marble. Then you consider that you are not loading engines to the point that you lessen their speed? Mr. Holland. No, sir. CAR SHORTAGE. 35 Mr. Marble. Are all of your sidings long enough for your trains at passing points? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. All of them ? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not have to saw any trains past one another? Mr. Holland. Not unless we get two trains on a siding. Mr. Marble. Does that hapi)en frequently? Mr. Holland. Yes. Mr. Marble. How frequently? Mr. Holland. Well, as a rule, we try to avoid that sort of a condi- tion — that is, we try to hold the trains back, so that they won't con- gregate at one point. Mr. Marble. Do you succeed in doing so in a great many instances? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. It occurs frecjuently? Mr. Holland. It is bound to occur. Mr. Marble. Every day somewhere? Mr. Holland. No; perhaps not every day, but frequentlv. Mr. Marble. How about the Cooi)ci*stown branch — is that under your control ? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is the condition there as to the numl)er of trains, and trains passing each other? Mr. Holland. Why, 1 do not think there has Ix'en any trouble of that sort. Mr. Marble. No congestion there? Mr. Holland. No, sir. Mr. Marble. No more than anywhere else, at any rate? Mr. Holland. No. Mr. Marble. How many trains have you had in the last two weeks on that Coopei^stown branch? Mr. Holland. We run a passenger each way a day, and a freight each way a day. Mr. Marble. Then you would .say you have had twenty-eight freights in the last two weeks? Mr. Holland. During good weather. Mr. Marble. Has it been good weather during the la.st two weeks? Mr. Holi^\nd. No, sir. Mr. Marble. How many days bad weather? Is that line blocked with snow ? What is the trouble? Mr. Holland. It was blocked north of Cooperstown. Mr. Marble. For how long? Mr. Holland. Since Friday of this week. Mr. Marble. A week ago Friday? Mr. Holland. This last Friday; it was opened up yesterday. Mr. Marble. Well, did the passenger trains make regular runs Friday and Saturday? Mr. Holland. As far as Cooperstown and return. Mr. Marble. The passenger trains were blocked as well as the others? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you had complaints of the slowness of move- ment from up in your country — have they come to you at all ? 36 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Holland. No; only in a general way. No specific charges, no specific cases. Mr. Marble. No specific cases were brought to your attention? Mr. Holland. By the citizens, you mean? Mr. Marble. Well, by anybody — the shippers complaining about cars being delayed ? Mr. Holland. No ; I can not say that there has been any. Mr. Marble. None at all ? Mr. Holland. I do not remember any now. Mr. Marble. Do you consider that the freight on your division has moved expeditiously, the way you have testified — that there has been no trouble there ? Mr. Holland. Well, there has been more or less congestion, p>er- haps, but there has been no specific complaint made. Mr. Marble. How about your power — have you got plenty of power? Mr. Holland. Well, we have got to use the power mostly for stock, this fall, to keep the stock moving. Mr. Marble. Then, grain has not moved very much on that account, is that so? Mr. Holland. We moved stock in preference to grain. Mr, Marble. Have you moved stock in preference to coal ? Mr. Holland. Coal as a rule moves west and stock moves east. Mr. Marble. Have the stock shipments taken your engines away from Duluth at all, or anything of that sort, so that you could not move coal west ? Mr. Holland. No; that moves in the opposite direction from that. Commissioner Lane. How much more stock have you moved this year than you moved last? Mr. Holland. 1 think it is about the same; I think that the num- ber of trains run this year were about the same as last year. Commissioner Lane. Moved in the season, Mr. Holland? Mr. Holland. Yes; moved later in the season. Commissioner Lane. What has been the volume of the stock move- ment this year? Mr. Holland. Why, I think that probably October was the heavi- est month. Commissioner Harlan. Ordinarily, what time is it? Mr. Holland. We have moved a good deal of stock this year in November. Commissioner Harlan. Go ahead, Mr. Holland. Mr. Holland. Last year a great deal of the stock moved in August. Conunissioner Lane. And very little moved in November? Mr. Holland. Not so much in November as — that is, the fore part of November. Mr. BuNN. The fact is that the movement of stock is exceptionally light this year — everybody knows that. Mr. Marble. Is it true that grain started moving exceptionallj^ earlv this year? Mr. Holland. No; I can not say that it moved any earlier than ordinarily. Mr. Marble. So far as it moved at all, do you not know that this crop was about three weeks earlier than the crop 6f last year? CAB SHORTAGE. 37 Mr. Holland. I kiiow that we had a better supply of empties during the fore part of this year than we had last year. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not grain was offered for shipment earlier this year than last year? Mr. Holland: I guess probably there was some grain offered a little earlier. Mr. Marble. How much earlier? Mr. Holland. I did not look it up to see. Commissioner Lane. Do you know what the reason was that stock moved so late this year? Mr. Holland. I could not tell you. Commissioner Lane. Do you know whether the cars were otherwise engaged ? Mr. Holland. I could not tell as to that, the stock comes from bej'ond the division that I am on. Commissioner Harlan. Does it not originate on your division at all? Mr. Holland. The greater part of it originates west. Commissioner Harlan. Have you been able to jnove all the stock that was offered to your division ? Mr. Holland. Practically speaking. Commissioner Harlan. There were no complaints by stockmen to you? Mr. Holland. We might have been delayed in getting cars some, but I got them in a short time. Commissioner Harlan. Well, was the stock offered you as early this year as last year ? Mr. Holland. That has been coming all fall. Commissioner Harlan. I mean stocK over your division — did you not have offers of stock over your division as early this year as last year? Mr. Holland. Oh, yes; it has been moving all fall. Commissioner Harlan. And as early as it moved last year? Mr. H01.LAND. Yes, sir; I think so — portions of it, at least. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Holland, you say you make up your trains according to the capacity of your locomotives, do you not? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. What is the capacity of your locomotives used on your division? Mr. Holland. Why, from Jamestown east, in good weather — summer weather, not freezing weather — we handle eighteen and nineteen hundred tons. Commissioner Harlan. How many cars would that be? Mr. Holland. For wheat it would make about thirty-five or thirty-six — somewheres along in there. Commissioner Harlan. How long have you been with the road? Mr. Holland. 1 have been in my present position one year; I have been with the road for thirteen years. Commissioner Harlan. Well, are they hauling more cars per locomotive than they did fifteen years ago? Mr. Holland. Yes; I think probably they are, because the engines are heavier now than they were five years ago. Commissioner Harlan. Heavier line engines? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. 38 CAB SHORTAGE. Commissioner Harlan. Is the movement of your freight trains as fast per day now as five years ago ? Mr. Holland. The number of trains ? Commissioner Harlan. No; the movement per day, the number of miles covered per day? Mr. HoLLANT). No; I do not think it is. Commissioner Harlax. In a general way, what is the difference in the number of miles covered per day by freight trains now and five years ^o? Mr. Holland. I could not say as to that. Conmiissioner Harlan. Have you any idea about it ? Mr. HoLLANT). If I was to venture a guess, I would say that the mileage v^ould be about the same. Commissioner Harlan. I thought you said it would not ? Mr. HoLLANT). Perhaps I did not understand your question. The miles covered by an engine Commissioner Harlan. By a train — a freight train. Will the stenographer read my question, please? The stenographer fea!a as follows: Is the movement of your freight trains as fast per day now as five years ago? Mr. Holland. I did not understand it then, I think that the miles covered per day probably was about the same as it was then. Commissioner Lane. Mr. Holland, suppose that you had a larger number of switches and side tracks, and that you made up trains with fewer cars, could they not move faster than at present ? Mr. Holland. Generally speaking, no. Commissioner Lane. You just explain that to us. Mr. Holland. Well, as a rule, our meeting points between James- town and Fargo are only 2 to 4 miles apart, as a rule; and if there was a greater number or side tracks for them to go in on, the train would naturallv be delayed taking these sidings. That is mv view of it. Commissioner Lane. Now, then, you have left out a consideration — the speed a train could make if it had less weight to carry. Mr. Holland. I do not think that would affect that materially. As it is they can get right along over the road; they are not stopped at stations. Commissioner Lane. Now, you were here this morning, Mr. Hol- land. We want to get at the facts in this matter. There has been complaint made to us rei)eatedly from all jwrtions of this territory regarding what is generally termed car shortage and complaints against the manner in whicli cars are handled and railroads operated, and we have come here to find out, in the interests of the public, just what the condition of things is, and, if possible, to point out to the railroad how that condition can be improved, or, if it is necessary, that some other incentive shall be given. Now, you are a practical railroad man. We have to rely, to a large extent, to the railroad men for advice upon these kinds of questions. Will you give me your rea- sons why it takes so lo^ to move from North Dakota to Duluth a train load of wheat? Wny there should be complaints that it takes in some cases thirty and fortv days? It would seem that on your division there is no trouble. You do not suggest any way by which that service could be improved. Now, give us the benefit of your CAR SH0RTA3E. 39 knowledge as an expert railroad man — regarding yourself as, in a sense, in the public service — as to how bettor time can be made from North Dakota to Duluth, so that the cars will not take thirty or forty days. Mr. Holland. I would like to be able to answer that question. It would solve a good deal of this trouble, if I could, I presume. Commissioner Lane. You do not know of any way by which the service on the Northern Pacific, between North Dakota and Duluth, can be improved, in the matter of train service, in which you are a railroad ex])ert? Mr. Holland. I do not know how we can make any improvement on the present conditions in the way of getting freight over the road. Commissioner Lane. That is all. Mr. BuNN. If you will pardon me, we have brought with us the gentleman who moves all these cars — the general manager of the road — who can answer that question. Commissioner Lane. We would be very glad indeed to have him answer, and you can feel at liberty to put on what witnesses you desire. Mr. BuNN. You can hardly expect an answer to that question from the witness on the stand. Commissioner Lane. I do not know, Mr. Bunn, whether it is expected under these circumstances or not. Mr. Marble. You would not recommend putting more tonnage on the trains to get the freight over the road, would you? Mr. Holland. I would not want to recommend overloading. Mr. Marble. If you put on any more, you think they would be overloaded ? Mr. Holland. Yes; the engines that we operate this fall could probably have handled another hundred tons. Mr. Marble. Why didn't you put it on? Mr. Holland. Because they would be liable to break in two. Mr. Marble. And they could not have handled it? Mr. Holland. It would have been at a loss. Mr. Marble. That is to say, your train would have broken in two; it would have been too heavy for the couplings. Mr. Holland. It would have been apt to break in two. Mr. Marble. Then you have loaded trains to the capacity of the couplings to hold together, within a hundred tons? Mr. Holland. Well, it was not exactly that I meant. It is not the strain that would break them in two, perhaps, but when a train would jerk it would not be liable to hold togetner. It would be too heavy and they would be apt to break in two. Mr. Marble. And you think that if you had put two more cars on these trains they would have broken in two? Mr. Holland. Not in every case. Mr. Marble. There would have been danger of that, and that is the reason you did not put them on? Mr. Holland. We have handled two thousand tons on our trains and did not break them in two. We thought it was better operation to handle nineteen hundred tons. Mr. NfARBLE. Are your engines all new engines? Mr. Holland. No. Mr. Marble. How long have some of them been in use? 40 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Holland. We got some of them this fall and some of them have been here for long beitore I came; I could not say how long. Mr. Marble. Have vou got some of the Brookes, nmeteen by twenty-six, five-hundrei's, up there? Mr. Holland. Commonly Known as Mogul ? Mr. Marble. I believe so. Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. They have been in use quite a number of years? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not the capacity of those engines is higher this year than it ever was before? Mr. Holland. No, sir; it is not. Mr. Marble. Is it less? Mr. Holland. I think it is rated about 100 tons less than it has been in former years. Mr. Marble. Would you say it was less 100 tons this year than it was in 1900? Mr. Holland. In 1900 we were handling 1,350 tons with those engines, and this year we have been handling most of those engines on way freights — light trains. Mr. Marble. You have not put them on heavy trains this year? Mr. Holland. No, sir; not as a rule. Mr. Marble. Are the engines generally loaded heavier this year than last year, or lighter ? Mr. Holland. The same class of engines ? Mr. Marble. The same class comparing with the same class of engines — is your tonnage heavier or lighter per engine ? Mr. Holland. Practically the same. Mr. Marble. You want to be understood as swearing in response to Commissioner Harlan's question that trains move as fast now as they did five years ago ? Mr. Holland. I think they do. * Mr. Marble. Not loaded heavier? Mr. Holland. The same class of engines. Mr. Marble. Your trains are not loaded heavier where the same class of engines is used ? Mr. Holland. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you making as good a record in getting freight over the road as you did five years ago ? Mr. Holland. I can not say that we are. Mr. Marble. Why not? Mr. Holland. Probably due to the greater volume of business. ^ Mr. Marble. You get more over the road if you have a greater volume of business, but the movement is slower than with the less volume. Is that it? Mr. Holland. There are more trains to meet and greater train interference. Mr. Marble. Then all the trouble has been train interference. Is it not a fact that freight trains are so heavy and so long now as com- pared with five years ago that you have to make them a larger head- way allowance in order to get a passenger train over the road than you did then? Mr. Holland. No; I think that they will make as gpod meeting points. CAR SHORTAGE. 41 Mr. Marble. Do you say one of these trains of dead freight has to have greater or less headway than it did five years ago? Mr. Holland. As a rule, I think they will make as good meeting points as they did then. Mr. Marble. You do not have to give them a larger allowance now? Mr. Holland. I think about the same. Mr. Marble. How about empty cars ? Have you had empty cars to fill the orders coming to you? Mr. Holland. Empties have been scarce ; yes. Mr. Marble. How scarce? Have you had to let orders go unfilled for quite awhile? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you had trouble in furnishing stock cars? Mr. Holland. Some. Mr. Marble. Well, how much have men had to wait; a week? Mr. Holland. In some cases they have. Mr. Marble. Two weeks? Mr. Holland. I think that probably is the limit. Mr. Marble. You do not know anyone that has had to wait twenty days? Mr. Holland. I do not recollect it now. Mr. Marble. Have you had trouble in getting box cars? Mr. Holland. Yes ; box cars have been scarce. Mr. Marble. Is there trouble now? Mr. Holland. Not so much as it has been. Mr. Marble. Have you had complaint of lack of box cars at Jamestown ? Mr. Holland. Yes. Mr. Marble. How long have you had complaint? Mr. Holland. Well, probably — you mean to fill local orders with? Mr. Marble. I mean to fill orders that you chose to fill. How many available box cars have you had? How long have you had available cars in the yards at JamestoAMi? Mr. Holland. Probably a week. Mr. Marble. They have been coming and going during that week? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir; this past week they have not moved very freely on account of weather conditions. Mr. Marble. Bad weather at Jamestown ? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And that is the only thing that has kept them from moving? Mr. Holland. I think that is the greatest reason. Mr. Marble. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that your track has been blocked ? Mr. Holland. Snow interference. Mr. Marble. So the trains could not run? Mr. Holland. Yes. Mr. Marble. The trains have been blocked out of Jamestown? Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And no lack of power at all ? Mr. Holland. Well, in some respects, yes; and in another way, no. Mr. .Marble. In what respects yes? Mr. Holland. We would — we handled loads such as coal in prefer- ence to empties, and wc have moved more empties on local trains to 42 CAR SHORTAGE. other points than we would have, if we had been able to have han- dled the empties on the other trains that were filled with loads. Mr. Marble. Did you or did you not have enough engines? If you had had enough engines could you have sent more trains over the road than you did? Mr. Holland. It might possibly have been one day this week, but not to exceed that, Mr. Marble. Not to exceed that. Do you know how many box cars you had in your Jamestown yard on the 14th? Mr. Holland. I do not. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not you had 43 very large cars standing in one string empty? Mr. Holland. We had a string of empties there. Mr. Marble. How long have they been there? Mr. Holland. They have been there for four or five days. Mr. Marble. Only four or five days ? Mr. Holland. That is about it. Mr. Marble. Haven't they been there six days? Mr. Holland. They may possibly have been, but I do not think it. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether that number is correct — 43 ? Mr. Holland. I do not. Mr. Marble. Sixties and eighties, mostly 80,000-capacity cars ? Mr. Holland. I do not know. Mr. Marble, How much company coal have you got at James- town — do you know? Mr. Holland. Storage in cars ? Mr. Marble, In supply at Jamestown. Mr. Holland. That is out of my jurisdiction. Mr, Marble, How much have you got standing in cars? Mr, Holland. Probably 5 or 6 cars. Mr. Marble. That is all? Mr. Holland. I think so. Mr. Marble. You do not know how much there is in storage other than that? Mr. Holland. I do not know. Mr. Marble. Does your road have storage bins for coal? Mr, Holland. It has a coal dump with a bin in connection with it. Mr. Marble. How long have those cars been standing there with coal in them? Mr. Holland. No length of time. Mr. Marble. Well, how long? Mr. Holland. Some of them came in Sunday; and they arc prob- ably used up by this time. Mr, Marble, Probably used up? You are using out of the cars? Mr. Holland. We unload right from the car into the dump. Mr. Marble. Do you unload into the bin? Mr. Holland. No. Mr, Marble, You unload into a chute? Mr, Holland, Yes, sir, Mr, Marble, That goes to the engine? Mr, Holland. Into the elevator, and then that goes into the engine. Mr, Marble. Now, then, when you get loaded cars for the com- CAB SHORTAGE. 43 ])any, does the coal stand in the cars until such time as it is unloaded into that elevator^ Mr. Holland. I presume, as a rule, it does, unless it is put into the storage. Mr. Marble. How often is it put into the storage bin? Mr. Holland. As fast as they can get it unloaded. Mr. Marble. Is there delay in unloading? Mr. Holland. Not excessive delay, I think. Mr. Marble. Is it not a fact that the company coal pretty largely is unloaded from the cars into the elevator ? Mr. Holland. I think that is the practice. Mr. Marble. At how many points on your division do you supply coal to the engines? Mr. Holland. At Fai^o, Valley City, and Dawson, on the main line. Mr. Marble. Now, have you been to these points? Mr. Holland. They have practically the same kind of an arrange- ment that we have at Jamestown. Mr. Marble. At all of them? Mr. Holland. Yes. Mr. Marble. How much coal is standing at these points — company coal ? Mr. Holland. Practically none. ' • Mr. Marble. How much is in the yards? Mr. Holland. I do not know. Mr. Marble. Recently cars of coal have gone into these points — have you put them into the bin or have they been put into the clmtes ? Mr. Holland. I do not handle the coal myself. Mr. Marble. You do not order the cars for unloading? Mr. Holland. No, sir. Mr. Marble. So you can not testify as to that? Mr. Holland. No. Mr. Marble. Before we adjourn, we have a number of train dis- patchers — Mr. Philbin, of Superior Commissioner Lane. Mr. Holland, you will return at 2 o'clock^ Mr. Holland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. The railroad men from the country who have come to the citv, including Mr. Kyle, who have brought in certain records — I would like to see them here -immediately after the adjournment of the Commission so that we can expedite matters, and let them get tlirou^h and get away. By meeting them now, I can save consider- able time. Commi.ssioner Lane. We will now take an adjournment at this time until 2 o'clock p. m. (ThereupMjn, at 12.20 o'clock p. m., the Commission took an adjournment until 2 o'clock p. m.) after recess. Commissioner Lane. Gentlemen, we are ready to proceed. Mr. Marble. I will call Mr. Blanchard. E. C. Blanchard, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Blanchard, you reside at Duluth, Minn.? 44 OAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Blanchard. I do. Mr. Marble. And you are division superintendent of the Northern Pacific Railroad? Mr. Blanchard. I am. Mr. Marble. And in charge of the terminal there? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is the present condition of that terminal as to the congestion of cars ? Mr. Blanchard. It is in a very fair condition — very slightly congested. Mr. Marble. And that means that you have been clearing it up since navigation closed ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What has been the condition there this crop season? Mr. Blanchard. The conditions were fair until about the 10th to the 15th of November, about which time we were badly congested. Mr. Marble. After the 10th of November? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Why was that — what caused that congestion? Mr. Blanchard. On account of the large increase of business both inbound and outbound, especially outbound. Mr. Marble. In what commoaity has the business increased ? Mr. Blanchard. Almost every commodity. Mr. Marble. Has there been enough increase in grain to explain any part of this congestion ? Mr. Blanchard. A slight increase in grain. Mr. Marble. Has there been enough to explain this congestion at all? Mr. Blanchard, That, added to the other increases, resulted in the congestion. Mr. Marble. Helped to increase it? What commodity has in- creased in receipts more than grain? Mr. Blanchard. Receipts? Mr. Marble. Yes. Mr. Blanchard. Well, lumber from the Pacific coast, and almost every other commodity. I do not know as I can enumerate the increases in each one of them. Mr. Marble. And in your shipments out, what commodities in- creased ? Mr. Blanchard. Coal and lumber; principally coal. Mr. Marble. Principally coal ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Now, did you ship out more coal than customarily? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. More than last year? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. To what points has the coal gone? Mr. Blanchard. To pomts in the Northwest and Southwest. Mr. Marble. Has that been coal for railroad consumption, or for private consumption? Mr. Blanchard. Both. Mr. Marble. Have you shipped out an increased quantity of coal for private consumption? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. CAB SHORTAGE. 45 Mr. Marble. To North Dakota? Mr. Blancharu. I could not tell you as to the territory, but I tliink we have. Mr. Marble. As to the commodities received, how much haa iron- ore business increased this year over last year? Mr. Blancharu. We do not handle iron ore — the Northern Pacific. Mr. Marble. That don't go tlirough your yards at all? Mr. Blaxchard. No, sir; that is, only a small amoimt going to the local industries, the Zenith Furnace Company. Mr. Marble. Are you at all hami>ered by the conditions of the Great Northern, particularly the terminal in Duluth, or have you been ? Mr. Blanchard. The Great Northern terminal in Duluth? Mr. Marble. Yes; the Great Northern terminals at that point — the Head of the Lakes? Have conditions there hampered you? Mr. Blanchard. At Duluth proper? Mr. Marble. Duluth or Superior, Mr. Bl.\nchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. When there were cars to be brought from the Great Northern to your yards, was there diflBculty about getting them to your yards ? Mr. Blanchard. At certain times we are congested perhaps for a few hours, and we might not be able to receive a train of cars from t hem, but there is no serious delay. Mr. M.\RBLE. Are your terminals large enough, did you say? Mr. Blanchard. Not large enough to handle the business we have had in the last three months. Mr. Marble. Do you think they ought to be made larger ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes; I think there should be some increased facilities. Mr. Marble. How long have you thought that? Mr. Blanchard. Since 1905. Mr. Marble. Since 1905? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have they been increased since 1905? Mr. Blanchard. We attempted to increase them, but could not succeed in getting the work done. Mr. Marble. Why? Mr. Blanchard. Because we had to make a fill of land on Rice's Point by dredges, and the contractor who took the contract to have the dredging oone could not perform the work in time for the move- ment of grain. Mr. >rARBLE. Was there some physical impossibility which they met as a reason that they were not enlarged ? Mr. Blanchard. They met with unavoidable delays, I presume. Mr. Marble. Was there (iifficulty in ^jetting men? Mr. Blanchard. Difficulty in gettmg dredges and men, and breakdowns and other unavoidable reasons, I presume. Mr. Marble. You heard the testimony this morning? Mr. Blanchard. Part of it. Mr. Marble. You heard these statements as to a great many Northern Pacific cars and the long time they were hi getting through the terminal to the elevators, and the great many days they were delayed? 46 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. Blanchard. I heard some of the testimony ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you heard there were a good many complaints, and you got a letter from the board of trade relative to that mattci .' Mr. Blanchard. I did. Mr. Marble. Which you replied to ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you said that the elevators had not delayed you this year? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you had power enough there ? Mr. Blanchard. No; I have not. Mr. Marble. Has that been one of the reasons for this congestion? Mr. Blanchard. One of them. Mr. Marble. And one of them, you say, was that the terminal was not large enough ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you had any trouble over the fact that trains coming in were too large? If trains came in more frequently and with fewer cars in the trains, would that help you any ? Mr. Blanchard. It would not. Mr. Marble. The trains do not congest you when they come in there? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Is it your observation that the trains are too heavil}' loaded ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. What percentage of their capacity is put on these engines, do you know ? Mr. BLANCILA.RD. I should say 85 to 90 per cent of their capacity. Mr. Marble. Take an engine loaded to 85 or 90 per cent of its capacity, and if it gets behind time, has it reserve power to make up time? Mr. Blanchard. It has reserve power sufficient to make good freight time. Mr. Marble. What is "good freight time?" Mr. Blanchard. I should say — you mean including unavoidable delays, meeting trains, taking coal and water, etc. ; the average over a district? Mr. Marble. You might get in so many unavoidable delays that there would be nothing very illuminating in your answer. In the first place, if the train is not delayed by meetmg other trains — if it is simply stopped to get water and coal — what would you say ought to be its time for going over a division of 100 miles? Mr. Blanchard. They should make about 10 miles per hour on an average. Mr. Marble. Ten miles per hour on an average? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What time have your trains made during the last three months. Mr. Blanchard. From 8 to 10 miles per hour. Mr. Marble. How long has it taken to cover the division? Mr. Blanchard.* The district — from fourteen to sixteen or eighteen hours, occasionally. Mr. Marble. What is the length of that division? " CAR SHORTAGE. 47 Mr. Blanchard. The district from Duluth to Staples is 148 miles ami from Duluth to St. Paul 152 miles. Mr. Marble. And that division has been covered in this time, you say? Air. Blanchard. Approximately. Mr. Marble. Have you had unavoidable delays — very many of them — that have increased that time? Mr. Blanchard. At terminals only. Mr. Marble. At terminals? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. At what terminals? Mr. Blanchard. At Superior and what we call South Superior. Mr. Marble. You mean delays in getting started out ? Mr. Blanchard. Delays in getting started out. Mr. Marble. And delays in getting in ? Mr. Blanchard. And delays — a few delays — in getting in. Mr. Marble. What caused the delays in starting out ? Mr. Blanchard. Well, unforeseen obstacles in the way of making up trains. For instance, the yardmaster would notify the dispatcher that he could have a train made up at 2 p. m., and on account of cer- tain congestions that he could not foresee, and other accidents, per- haps, the train would be delayed an hour and a half or two hours in getting started from Duluth. Our outbound trains all run through Superior, and we have also — just to the same extent there are some delays in getting through the Superior yards. Mr. Marble. One or two hours in Duluth and a similar delay in Superior, for instance? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Of course the engine and cars are out of use to that extent. Can you not avoid that? Mr. Blanchard. Not without increasing the facilities, which we hope to do, and which we intended to do this season. Mr. Marble. Take the ordinary 80,000-pound car, loaded with wheat, that comes in. How much wheat does that car actually con- tain, as a matter of fact? Mr. Blanchard. It carries its full capacity and sometimes more. Mr. Marble. I am asking you what tonnage those cars actually l)ring in. Mr. Blanchard. An 80,000-pound car actually brings in 80,000 pounds, as near as I know. Mr. Marble. Are they not loaded over their capacity? Are not your people instructed to load them over their capacity ? Mr. Blanchard. We allow shippers to load them 10 per cent over capacity. Mr. Marble. Don't you demand that they be loaded 10 per cent over their marked capacity? Mr. Blanchard. 1 never heard so. Mr. Marble. You say that 10 per cent over capacity is the maxi- mum load as a matter of fact? Mr. Blanchard. Yes; that is all it could be loaded. Mr. Marble. And that is all that is loaded ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir; as far as I know. Mr. Marble. Those pass under your eye, do they? Mr. Blanchard. They do not. 48 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. If a car is loaded too heavy, what effect has that upon the braking power? Mr. Blanchard. It has no material effect upon the braking power that I know of. Mr. Marble. Does it not restrict the braking power, impair it, by loading the car too heavy ? Mr. Blanchard. It might to a very small extent. Mr. Marble. Not enough, you say, to make a perceptible difference in rimning the train and in managing the train ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. How long have you been in the railroad business? ^Ir. Blanchard. About thirty years. Mr. Marble. How long have you been with the Northern Pacific Railroad ? Mr. Blanchard. Twenty years. Mr. Marble. Twenty years ? Mr. Blanchard. Twenty years — twenty-three years. Mr. Marble. Consecutively? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are familiar with other roads as well, and their manner of doing business, I presume ? Mr. Blanchard. Fairly so. Mr. Marble. Do you or do you not think your road is econom- ically operated; too economically operated to get good service? Mr. Blanchard. I don't. Mr. Marble. Your road is operated very economically, is it not? Mr. Blanchard. I presume so. Mr. ^Iarble. In fact, it is one of the three most economically oper- ated roads in the country. Do you know whether that is true or not? Mr. Blanchard. I do not. Mr. Marble. Taking the percentage of the total income put out for operating expenses. Do you know about that ? Mr. Blanchard. I do not. Mr. Marble. Do you know what the policy of your road is in regard to loading engines? Is it to get tonnage at the expense of speed ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You favor speed, even at the expense of tonnage? Mr. Blanchard. To a hmited extent. Mr. Marble. To a limited extent? Mr. Blanchard. I stated that we made an average of about 10 miles an hour and that I thought that to be a good fair speed for an ordinary freight train. Mr. Marble. How many roads in the United States load their freight trains to within 85 or 90 per cent of the capacity of the engme? Mr. Blanchard. I could not tell you, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether any considerable number do? Mr. Blanchard. I do not. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether, in considering the number of tons placed upon the engine, the excess loading in the cars is taken into account by the operating officers? Mr. Blanchard. It is not. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether they depend upon the sten- ciled or marked capacity in determining that ? CAB SHORTAGE. 49 Mr. Blanchard. Upon the waybilled weights. Mr. Marble. And grain is waybilled at the stenciled capacity of the car, is it not? Mr. Blanchard. That weight is corrected, after received, by the State weights. I understand the grain is waybilled by the agent on the information given hiiu by the shipper as to the number of bushels he has in the car, which is supposed to be the actual loading. Mr. Marble. You do not know of your own knowledge whether the actual is the same as the stenciled capacity? Mr. Blanchard. I think approximately grain is billed the actual weight, because I have had some tests made. Mr. AIarble. Do you know about the correction of weights accord- ing to the State weights? Mr. Blanchard. I know they are corrected. Mr. Marble. Are they generally raised, lowered, or left as they are? Mr. Blanchard. I know they are both raised and lowered. Mr. Marble. Both raised and lowered? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir; but on the average I think they are approximately correct. Air. Marble. If you were made general manager and in charge of this road, so far as the portion of it under your charge is concerned, with power to expend more money than is bein^ spent, would you be able to help the service to the public by spending more money? Mr. Blanchard. I do not know as I could answer that question. Mr. Marble. I wish you would try. Mr. Blanchard. Will you ask it again, please? Mr. Marble. Perhaps I can make it clearer. If you were in charge, with full power to expend money — responsible to yourself and with the idea of giving a better public service — could not you by spending more money give better service than is being given on your division ? Mr. Blanchard. To a limited extent, rerhaps I could not spend the amount I would like to. In other words, I could not secure the things I would like to in a short space of time. Mr. Marble. Those things would be what? Mr. Blanchard. Those tnings would be motive power, cars, and terminal facilities. Mr. Marble. You say, then, you are short of all tlu*ee? Mr. Blanchard. To a certain extent. Mr. Marble. So far as the public service is concerned? Mr. Blanchard. Dimng this period of three months of the year only. Mr. Marble. Have you undertaken some reconstruction work recently in your j^ards? Mr. Blanchard. At Duluth. Yes, sir; during the past summer. Mr. Marble. When did you begin that work? Mr. Blanchard. I think it was in June. Mr. Marble. And what is it you are trj-ing to accomplish there? Mr. Blanchard. We hope to add about 40 per cent to tlie facilities of the yard, which we undertook to do this year, but could not com- plete on account of being unable to get the dredging completed. Mr. Marble. Did you lose your contractor? Did some private firm hire the man away from you? 8. Doc. 333, 59-2 1 50 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. There was some piece of railroad work up there? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Not yours — I meant to say that the contractor who started that work left your employment and went into other employ- ment and left you without a contractor. Mr. Blanchard. I believe he did leave us for a short time. Mr. Marble. iVnd then he came back to you ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. For how long a time was he gone ? I^Ir. Blanchard. The work was in charge of the engineering department, and I could not have any definite knowledge; but I would say off-hand, for two or three weeks. Mr. Marble. That made some delay? Mr. Blanchard. Very much; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you torn up some track in the course of that work? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. We have rearranged certain tracks, but have not reduced the facilities. Mr. ]Marble. Have you the same number of leads there in that yard that you had before this work began ? Mr. Blanchard. Practically so. Mr. Marble. Practically so ? Have you the same number ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes; I think we have the same number. Mr. Marble. How many did you have before the work began^— how many leads ? Did you have three ? Mr. Blanchard. We had two at either end. Mr. Marble. What is that? Mr. Blanchard. We have two at either end. Mr. Marble. How many have you now? Mr. Blanchard. The same. Mr. Marble. Then the statement that you had three leads, and about the 1st of September you tore up two of them and got them out of the way, so that you had only one, would be incorrect? Mr. Blanchard. We were out of use on them during a part of September on account of rearranging the leads. Mr. Marble. During a part of September? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir ; or a part of October. Mr. Marble. Also a part of October*? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How much of September? Mr. Blanchard. Perhaps ten days. Mr. Marble. How much of Octooer? Mr. Blanchard. Perhaps a week. Mr. Marble. Since then you had the same capacity in that ter- minal as you had before ? Mr. Blanchard. It is as large as we had before; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did that loss of capacity during that ten days or two weeks lielp to create this congested condition and trouble that you experienced ? Mr. Bxanchard. To a certain extent; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with shipments of coal fn)ni the docks? Mr. Blanchard. Fairly so. CAB SHOKTAOE. 51 Mr, Marble. Do you know what proportion of coal shipped from those docks is being demanded and taken by your company? Mr. Blanchard. Of all the docks at Duluth and Superior? What you might call the head of the Lakes ? Mr. Marble. I mean docks that you move cars from and set empties to, either directly or indirectly. Mr. Blanchard. We supply cars to c<»rtain docks that are handled by other companies before they reach the docks. Mr. Marble. Well, all cars you supply. What proportion of the coal that you take out is company coal, and what is private coal? Mr. Blanchard. It varies considerably at certain times. There are times when it is perhaps 60 per cent for the company and 40 per cent private, and there are times when it is 40 per cent company and 60 per cent private. Mr. Marble. And how is it running now — how has it been for the last five days? Mr. Blanchard. About 60 per cent private commercial coal and about 40 per cent for the company, I would say. Mr. Marble. Are vou favormg the commercial coal? Mr. Blanchard. All we can; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Trj-ing to relieve the famine as much as possible? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is your company short of coal at points west of you? Mr. Blanchard. I have understood so. Mr. Marble. You find they are short on company coal and you move it there for the company? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you have trouble in getting empties to furnish for the coal business ? Mr. Blanchard. Sufficient? Mr. Marble. Do you have sufficient cars? Mr. Blanchard. No; I would say we have trouble in getting suf- ficient cars. Mr. Marble. Do the pay rolls for your division pass under your eye ? Mr. Blanchard. Not in detail. Mr. Marble. But you have an understanding of how they are made up — that is part of your business? Mr. Blanchard. Yes. Mr. Marble. Are the wages made largely on a mileage basis, or are thev on time? Mr. 6lanchard. Largely on mileage. Mr. Marble. Do you mean largely that the train crews get through in ten hours or less? Mr. Blanchard. Yes. Mr. Marble. Largely? Mr. Blanchard. ?«ot ten hours or less, because the district is more than 100 miles long. I mean at the rate of 10 miles per hour is what they average. Mr. Marble. Largely you keep within that? Mr. Blanchard. We try to. Mr. Marble. But in practice, do you? Mr. Blanchard. We try to. Mr. Marble. Have you succeeded ? 52 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Blanchard. Fairly so. Mr. Marble. You know you try to do a good many things you don't quite succeed in doing ? Mr. Blanchard. 1 es, sir. Commissioner Lane. What is the distance from Duluth to Fargo ? Mr. Blanchard. From Duluth to Staples is 148 miles, and from Staples to Fargo is 108 miles. Commissioner Lane. That would be a total of what? Mr. Blanchard. Two huntlred and lifty-six miles. Commissioner Lane. Two hundred and fifty-six miles? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. How long does it take a train that goes at a rate of 10 miles an hour to travel from Fargo to Duluth? Mr. Blanchard. Well, considering the time as 10 miles per hour, it would take twenty-five hours; but there is one district terminal where trains are stopped out and rearranged. For instance, a train from Fargo would contain freight for the Twin Cities and also freight for the head of the Lakes that has to be switched around. Commissioner Lane. What is the average time it takes a freight train to travel from F'argo to Duluth? Mr. Blanchard. I could not tell you what it is between Staples and Fargo, because that is beyond my district. Commissioner Lane. You do not know, and there is no record which you keep by which you can ascertain what time it takes a train to go from Fargo to Duluth? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. None that you have? ^ Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. What time does it take to travel 150 miles on your division as trains are moving now, during the month of December, we will say? Mr. Blanchard. From fifteen to eighteen hours. Commissioner Lane. You heard a list of complaints read here this morning stating that the average cars were delayed for days, from twenty and clear up as high as fif tv-f our days ? Mr. Blanchard. Certain individual cars; yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Certain individual cars — j^ou heard the state- ment, as I remember it, that there were a large number that took from twenty to twenty-five days? How do you explain that long time for the transportation? Mr. Blanchard. Well, there are many reasons why certain cars may possibly get out of the re^lar channel, such as, occasionally, engine failures, being set out on the way, hot boxes, bad, order cars and various reasons why individual cars may get out of the regular channel. Commissioner Lane. Do you think that — we will say on a run of 350 miles that the average should be twenty days? Mr. Blanchard. The average? Commissioner Lane. Yes. Mr. Blanchard. I would not. Commissioner Lane. What would you say would be a reasonable average ? Mr. Blanchard. Three hundred and fifty miles? Commissioner Lane. Yes. Mr. Blanchard. Ten to fifteen days. CAB SHORTAGE. 53 Commissioner IjANE. Ten to fifteen days? Mr. Blanchard. Yes. Commissioner Lane. Three humlred and fifty miles. With the cars traveling steadily, that would take about thuly-five hours, at 10 miles an hour? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. That would be a little less than a day and a half. Now, then, why should there be the difference between a day and a half and fifteen days in the transportation of those cars? Mr. Blanchard. Well, there are certain cars that make it in mucli less than fifteen days, and certain others that are unavoidably delayed, as I have stated, and which would make the average about ten to fifteen days, as I stated. Commissioner Lane. Yes, I know; but that would mean of course that a great many would have to take thirty or forty or fifty days in order to bring up such an average as that, if a day and a half travel- ing steadily was a reasonable time. Mr. Blanchard. Well, as I stated before, those trains are made up of cars for different destinations, which have to be necessarily re- switched at district terminals. Commissioner Lane. Now, take wheat that is raised out in Dakota; it goes in great part either to Duluth or Minneapolis, does it not ? Mr. Blanchard. It does. Commissioner Lane. The train would be made up of cars ff)r either one of those destinations, would it not? Mr. Blanchard. Not wholly. Commissioner Lane. Chiefly. The great volume of that business goes to those two places? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Now, then, do you think that thirteen days and a half is an unreasonable length of time to allow switching at division points! Mr. Blanchard. It would appear — yes, as an average. Of course you have taken the extreme outside — fifteen days. I said ten to fif- teen days. Commissioner Lane. Do you think thirteen and a half days might l)e allowed as a reasonable amount, a reasonable length of time? Mr. Blanchard. A total length of time? Commissioner Lane. A total length of time for- switching and a travel of 350 miles? Mr. Blanchard. Not for switching alone. Commissioner I^ne. What would you include in addition lo switching, to explain the difference between fifteen days and a day and a half? Mr. Blanchard. Well, I stated from ten to fifteen days. That would be an average of thirteen days. Commissioner Lane. Reduce it, then, to the lowest figure — :ten days. How do you make out the difference of eight and a half days? Mr. Blanchard. Well, on account of certain congestion — the maxi- mum amount of business we are required to handle during the three months in the year. Commissioner Lane. You are preparing for those tliree months during the other nine months, are you not? Mr. Blanchard. We are trying to; yes, sir. 54 CAR SHORTAGE. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Blanchard, would ten days have been a fair average last year? Mr. Blanchard. I think so. Commissioner Harlan. How about the year before — say from 1903? Mr. Blanchard. Perhaps the year before a little less — in 1903; the business has been increasing rapidly. We are trying to increase the facilities to keep up with the times. Commissioner Harlan. How much less than 1903? Let us take 1904. Would ten days have been a fair average in 1904? Mr. Blanchard. I should say during the three months of the year; yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. And about that in 1903? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Well, now, that is the period; that is the fourth summer in which that would have been a fair average. Now, what provision has the railroad made in order to get rid of that con- gestion in this length of time ? Mr. Blanchard. They have been securing additional power, addi- tional equipment, and making additions to their terminal facilities, and I understand they are double tracking the road from Staples to Fargo. That is beyond my district. Commissioner Harlan. How far has that gone, that double track- ing? Mr. Blanchard. I could not tell you exactly. Commissioner Lane. Mr. Blanchard, the coal moves largely from Duluth out to Dakota. That supplies about all of Dakota, does it not ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. What have you done — we understand from information we have here that there is a very serious coal shortage out there. Of course, we are solicitous that that should be remedied as soon as possible. Have any arrangements been made by the Northern Pacific Railroad by which coal shall be transported imme- diately to those people ? Mr. Blanchard. We are sending out the coal in preference to other freight. Commissioner Lane. Since what time has that been your policy? Mr. Blanchard. About two weeks. Commissioner Lane. Were you notified prior to that time that there was any very great necessity for coal there ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. Do you know of the demands being made two months ago for cars to transport coal to points in western Min- nesota and in Dakota, and their being unable to get those cars ? Mr. Blanchard. I think the orders were fairly well filled during the months of September and the first part of October for coal ship- ments. Commissioner Lane. What do you take back in your empties? When you bring out wheat, carry wheat eastward to Duluth, what do you take back instead of coal ? Mr. Blanchard. We take coal and other commodities. Commissioner Lane. Coal and other commodities. Do you know what percentage of coal you take? Mr. Blanchard. Of the entire commodities? CAB SHOBTAOE. 55 Commissioner Lane. Yes. Mr. Blaxchard. I should say 75 per cent. Commissioner Lane. That is a greater or a less percentage than you would take ordinarily at that time? Mr. Blanchard. Greater. Commissioner Lane. A greater percentage? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Had you orders in for cars to carry coal from Duluth prior to that time? Mr. Blanchard. Prior to what time? Commissioner Lane. Prior to the time you mentioned when you carried 75 per cent ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. We have orders for cars for coal, you might say, all the fall, and in fact we have actually brought but few empties out of Duluth, which had been done in previous years. CoDunissioner Lane. You have been carrying loaded cars west- ward as well as eastward ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. There has been no great volume of empty cars out of there westward into Minnesota ana Dakota? Mr. Blanchard. Not over my division. Commissioner Lane. Not over your division ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. In your judgment, Mr. Blanchard. what is the reason for the coal shortage in tne West? Mr. Blanchard. Of course, there is the increase of settlement forcing an increase of consimiption. Commissioner Lane. Has tne normal supply of coal been furnished to those people — that is, has there been as much coal forwarded as there was up to this time last year? Mr. Blanchard. I think more. Commissioner Lane. You think more? Mr. Blanchard. I should say so. Commissioner Lane. Can anyone get a car for coal to-day, at Duluth, if he wishes it to transport it up to Dakota? Mr. Blanchard. Can anyone? Commissioner Lane. I do not wish you to be technical about that, Mr. Blanchard. It is a matter of much public interest. Mr. Blanchard. There is a difference between anyone and everyone. Commissioner Lane. Can a resj>ectabie coal dealer or John Smith, in Fargo, N. Dak. — anyone who is financially responsible — ^et coal carried out in a car from Duluth and have it transported to him with reasonable speed to Dakota? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir; as far as I know. Commissioner Lane. Will you make the authoritative statement, Mr. Blanchard, that can be sent to these people in Dakota, and to the other people who are in distress at this time for lack of coal, that anyone wno is financially responsible mav secure coal and have it transported westward to them, and that there are cars to be had for that nusiness? Mr. Blanchard. I could not do that, because wo do not sell the coal. The Northern Pacific does not own the coal. Commissioner Lane. Will you provide coal cars in which coal may 56 CAB SHORTAGE. be loaded at Duluth? I do not want anything that is technical. I want you to make a statement that you can carry out, if you can carry^ it out. I want you to see if it possible. Mr. Blanchard. It is not possible for us to furnish cars for every- one who would order cars at Duluth, perhaps, because there are not cars enough to meet the demands or requirements. Commissioner Lane. There are not cars to-day to meet the demands for coal cars ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. What proportion of the cars have you appor- tioned to that demand? Mr. Blanchard. I could not tell you as to that to-day, because I left Duluth Saturday evening, but I should say 60 per cent. Commissioner Lane. Sixty per centi Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. There would be, approximately, how many demands for cars in to you at that time? When you left on Satur- day, how many were there ? Mr. Blanchard. Approximately^ 350 cars. Commissioner Lane. And how many cars had you available for coal? Mr. Blanchard. That is a very hard question to answer, because we do not hold empties at all. As far as I know, as fast as the car is unloaded at the merchandise track or the elevator it is immediately sent to a coal dock. Commissioner Lane. On that day you could estimate the number that you might have loaded with coal had you so desired. I under- stand it was your policy. How many would there be out of 350 ? Mr. Blanchard. Sixty per cent of 350; yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Do you suppose that same percentage obtains to-day? Mr. Blanchard. As far as I know. Commissioner Lane. Then in your opinion there is nothing, so far as the situation in Duluth is concerned, which makes it impossible for the people of North Dakota to get a sufficient amount of coal? Mr. Blanchard. I presume a sufficient amount of coal would be 100 per cent. Commissioner Lane. That would be all that they asked for. Mr. Blanchard. That would be all that they asked for; yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. But in fact Mr. Blanchard. To prevent suffering, I should say so. Commissioner Lane. And to provide for that immediately? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. If, then, a man in Dakota should order six cars for coal you could provide him with four? Mr. Blanchard. Approximately. Commissioner Lane. Now, that stands good, does it? Mr. Blanchard. So far as I know of the business to-day. Commissioner Lane. There is no reason that you know of that would interfere with that policy being carried out ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you quite sure that advance orders would not take all the cars? CAB SHORTAGE. 67 Mr. Blanciiard. I couki not toll how many advance orders of coal would come in. Mr, Marble. Then the advance orders would come in ahead of the others? Mr. Blanchard. That would be left to the coal company to supply this coal, to load it out as they desired ? Commissioner Lane. Is there more than one coal dock in Duluth? Mr. Blanchard. There are 17 different coal docks in Duluth. Conmiissioner Lane. Seventeen, and they represent different coal companies, do they? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Do you know the actual number there? Mr. Blanchard. I do not. Commissioner Lane. Do you know of a combination of coal dealers which refuses to sell to individuals ? Mr. Blanchard. I do not. Commissioner Lane. All that you can say is that if the individual can get his coal in Duluth, that you will give cars, 60 per cent of the cars he might demand ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you, at any time, during this crop season, ship empties west for more grain rather than take tho time to switch them to the coal docks? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Not at all? Then, practically, you have not sent empties west? Mr. Blanchard. Practically none. Mr. Marble. None at all? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Blanchard, I want to understand one thing very clearly. Do you mean to say that 40 per cent of the coal needed in the Northwest is not going to be furnished by your line — is that the way you put it ? Mr. Blanchard. Is not going to be furnished ? Commissioner Harlan. Yes. You say you have facilities for 60 per cent, and I draw the inference that you mean that 40 per cent of the coal demanded will not go over your line. Mr. Blanchard. It can if we secure more cars. Commissioner Harlan. Are you going to secure more cars? Mr. Blanchard. I hope to. Commissioner Harlan. What steps have you taken to do that? Mr. Blanchard. Iliave notified the general office in St. Paul of the necessity of getting more cars to load with the commodities. I handle the cars on my own division only. Commissioner Harlan. That is all. Mr. Marble. Now, ju.st one minute, Mr. Blanchard. When you get these cars and get them started, how fast do you expect them to move over to the Dakotas ? Mr. Blanchard. At the rate of about 10 miles per hour. Mr. Marble. And y^ou won't ron.sider if they go 350 miles in ten davs, that that will be reasonable for those cars? Nir. Blanchard. I think they should make it in less than that if they are given preference. feS CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. That' would be about a mile and a half per hour, taking twenty-fours each day. Mr. Kruttschnitt, of the Harriman lines, I am told, recently made the statement that taking the freight cars of the country they worked one day in ten and the rest of the time they were waiting to be loaded and unloaded, and Mr. Krutt- schnitt criticised the shippers and consignees, but you seem to put some of the trouble on to the switching, judging from the statement you gave Commissioner Lane; that is to say, you think that a car going 10 miles an hour, making a trip in a day and a half, mi^ht fairly be held the balance of ten days to provide for the junction Eoints and the switching. How much do shippers and consignees oth lose ? Mr. Blanchard. They lose from two to four days in unloading and reloading their cars. Mr. Marble. Have you any remedy for that ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir; except the one that we have applied, the penalty of demurrage. Mr. Marble. If you raised the demurrage, increased the demur- rage, how would it De? Mr. Blanchard. It might improve matters. Mr. Marble. Can you recommend that? Mr. Blanchard. I am not prepared to say. Mr. Marble. So far as you know, is demurrage collected on all cars detained by shippers or consignees ? Mr. Blanchard. Unless it can be shown that it is the fault of the railroad company that they were not unloaded. Mr. Marble. You know in railroad circles it is a great question now as to expediting the movement of freight cars — stimulating their movement ? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are familiar with the discussions going on. Have you any suggestions on that line ? Mr. Blanchard. Nothing special. Mr. Marble. Nothing special ? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you anything to propose to prevent the diver- sion of cars — foreign cars — by railroad companies? Mr. Blanchard. I have not, except that which has already been decided upon recently. Mr. Marble. That of increasing the per diem? Mr. Blanchard. Increasing the per aiem. Mr. Marble. That is all. Commissioner Lane. Is it possible, Mr. Blanchard, for you to expe- dite the transportation of coal to the Dakotas? Mr. Blanchard. No more than I am. Commissioner Lane. No more than you are? Mr. Blanchard. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. Take the several cases that we have infor- mation of where there is a lack of coal. Take the case Mr. Major spoke of this morning on the Northern Pacific. Mr. Blanchard. On the Northern Pacific road ? Commissioner Lane. He was on the Great Northern. Mr. Blanchard. I did not hear of anything being said of the Northern Pacific road this morning. CAR SHORTAGE. 59 Commissioner Laxe. You do not know that there are any on the Northern Pacific r«)a(l i Mr. Blanchard. I know there is a general shortage of coal, but I do not know of any suffering or any parties entirely out of coal, personally. Commissioner Lane. Now, if it should appear, from information developed at tliis hearing, that there are communities upon the line of your roail where there is a serious coal shortage, will you say that ypu would make a special effort to liurr\' coal to those people ? Mr. Blanchard. I would. Commissioner Lane. You say that you would see it was done? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Then, we will ask that if there are such cases as that that they be brought immediately to your attention. Mr. Blanchard. All right, sir. Mr. BrxN. Did you brmg a map of the Duluth yard of the North- ern Pacific with you ? Mr. Blanchard. I did, sir. Mr. BuNN. Will you let us see it and show it to the Commissioners'? (Witness produce.spaper.) Mr. Blanchard. Tliat is the yard and that is the main working yard of Duluth, where the cars arrive and the cars are switched and classified as to their destinations and as to the different industries. Mr. BuNN. Does the red on that map represent the new condition of the yard and the white colors the ola portion of the yard? Mr. Blanchard, The red represents the proposed additions, which were not all completed. Mr. BuNN. They are largely completed now, are they not? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir; largely. (The witness and Commissioners discussed the map.) Mr. BuNN. How large an increase in that yard is there provided for? Mr. Blanchard. Provided for? Forty per cent. Mr. Bunn. How much was finished so as to be available during the recent congestion or pressure? Mr. Blanchard. Practically none of it for actual operation, but we were compelled to use it for storage tracks for a snort time on account of being connected only at one end. Mr. Bunn. And why was it not completed at an earlier date, Mr. Blanchard? Mr. Blanchard. Because the ccmtractor who was making the ground did not complete his work in time. Mr. Bunn. That is on filled ground, as I understand it. Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Mr. Bunn. Antl the contractor went off and did somebody else's work for two or three weeks? Mr. Blanchard. Yes, sir. Commissiarly a month. This firm is writing us that they are entirely out of salt, and that they will decline to receive the car unless same is delivered at once, so you will probably have a claim for this car of salt from the above-mentioned firm. Kindly trace this at once, and show delivery. Commissioner Lane. Suppose you put those letters in the record and just pass on as rapidly as possible. Mr. Marble. All right. (The same are received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1 to Mr. Cockey's testimony.") Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Cockey, I understand you say that you had sustained losses by the deterioration of your products in transit. Mr. Cockey. Yes, sir. Commissioner Haelan. Now have you also sustained financial 110 CAB SHORTAGE. losses in the way of curtailing the business that you otherwise would have received if the transportation had been better? Mr. CocKEY. Yes, sir; and a very great one. We can not measure it, but we believe that it is a very serious one. Commissioner Harlan. Have you been compelled to refuse orders because you could not deliver within the time stated by the cus- tomers ? Mr. CocKEY. Yes, sir; we have done that in many instances. Commissioner Harlan. Well, put it in a general way without going into details. Your position is that on account of poor trans- portation this year that it has caused you loss in two ways — first, by deterioration of your material in transit and then by loss of orders that you otherwise would have received ? Mr. CocKEY. I could answer that question; yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. That is all. Commissioner Lane. One question, Mr. Cockey. Are the com- plaints of nondelivery of cars based upon single instances, or is it a general complaint, so far as your shipments are concerned? Are all of the shipments delayed an unusual time this year ? Mr. Cockey. Well, sir, as I have answered that question before, I might say that the most aggravated cases with us have been with the Soo and Northern Pacific. I would probably have a stray car with the Great Northern; but there is far more delay this year than for previous years by all the roads. Commissioner Lane. The point I want to make is this: The rail- road people seem to contend that solitary instances may be picked out where a car here and there has gone astray, and that car may take twenty, thirty, forty, and in one case we have here fifty-four, days; but that these are solitary instances and in no way to be taken as at all usual or customary at this time. What is your experience in that regard ? Mr. Cockey. I think I have a letter here. I have an abstract here that shows about 20 cars that have been delayed anywhere from — on the various roads — anywhere from a month to six weeks. Commissioner Lane. That is the general run of your business — that is in the general run of your business ? Mr. Cockey. That is in the general run of our business, and then that is only a very small fractional portion of these delays. We did not attempt to make up a whole record, you know. Commissioner Lane. Then you did not pick those out as excep- tional instances of delay ? Mr. Cockey. No, sir. Mr. BuNN. I understood, Mr. Cockey, you to say that you did not know anything about that; that your freight man could testify as to that. Mr. Cockey. As to the details of that matter he can do better than I can, because I turn it over to him. Commissioner Lane. You gave instructions, however, to go through your books and gather up some instances, and not to specify those particularly aggravated — not to pick out the aggravated cases, but to give a picture of what appears generally on the books ? Mr. Cockey. Yes, sir; I thmk I did. I do not think I told him to put in that statement any cars that were not delayed at all. We ship a great many cars. We handle, for example, m some way or CAR SHORTAGE. Ill other about 30 cars a day, and we would not — I did not tell him to make up a statement that did not include any delays at all because that would be of no importance, as it occurred to me. Commissioner Laxe. We want to know, then, just what percent- age of delayed cars that is to the general body of your business? Mr. BuNX. I understood the witness to say, in direct examina- tion, that he could not tell about that, but he had a freight agent who could tell about it. Mr. Bright, of the Soo Line. Mr. Cockey, you spoke of a car des- tined — made mention of a car in connection with Cold Harbor. Was Cold Harbor the destination of that car? Mr. Cockey. I think so. That record will sliow. Mr. Bright. Please give me the number of that car and say if that was the destination, Mr. Cockey. This was car No. 3372, shipped from Superior, Northern Pacific and Soo, destination Cold Haroor, N. Dak. Mr. Bright. And the date? Mr. Cockey. I do not know, sir. This record will show. Mr. Bright. You do not know from memory ? . Mr. Cockey. Oh, no, sir; I do not. Date of shipment October 29. Date and place of dcliverv. to Glenwtxxi, which is the division point of Soo road, Novembers. Time in hands of Northern Pacific, five days. Mr. Bright. That is enough. Mr. Cockey. Destination, not yet. Thirty-seven days out. Mr. Marble. Is that all? Commissioner Harlan. I want to ask just one question. In con- ducting your own affairs you come in contact with mei-chants and dealers in other lines of business, do you not? Mr. Cockey. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. In daily contact? Mr. Cockey. Oh, yes, sir ; I say so. Commissioner Harlan. Have you found that there was a general coniplaint in your community of car shortage ? Mr. Cockey. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. More so this year than any other year? Mr. Cockey. Invariably so. Commissioner Harlan. And a general complaint of delay in transportation ? Mr. Cockey. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. That is all. (The witness was excused.) A. S. Kassebaum, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testi- fied as follows: Mr. Marble. What is your name? Mr. Kassebaum. A. S. Kassebaum. Mr. Marble. And you are employed by what firm ? Mr. Kassebaum. The Superior Manufacturing Company. Mr. Marble. And that is the firm of Mr. CocKey? Mr. Kassebaum. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you make up this list of cars [exhibiting paper to witness]? 112 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. Kassebaum. (Examining paper.) Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. From what records or books of the company? Mr. Kassebaum. I took it from the records we have oeen keeping in tracing those cars. Mr. Marble. Then this is taken from the list of delayed cars? Mr. Kassebaum. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you pick out those delayed longest? Mr. Kassebaum. No, sir; I took those just delayed — that ap- peared to me from the time there that they ought to have been gotten through. Mr. Marble. How many cars did you have in that list of delayed cars; can you tell us? Mr. Kassebaum. No, sir; I have not any idea. Mr. Marble. A great many more than here? Mr. Kassebaum. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you did not select to get those which were the longest time out? Mr. Kassebaum. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Will you determine and let me know this afternoon how many cars were in that list, about what the total number of shipments were during that time the list was made up, and the total cars delayed? Mr. Kassebaum. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. This statement is correct according to the books? Mr. Kassebaum. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I will not stop to read it, but will ask that it be marked as an exhibit. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1 to Mr. Kassebaum's testimony.") Mr. BuNN. What time does this list cover? Mr. Kassebaum. It covers from August 15th down to the present time. Mr. BuNN. Down to the present time? From August 15th? Mr. Kassebaum. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. You shipped a great many cars during that time that there was no complaint about — so I take it? Mr. Kassebaum. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. And you are not prepared to say what proportion of your cars were delayed? Mr. Kassebaum. No, sir; I am not. Mr. BuNN. That is all. Commissioner Lane. That is all. (The witness was excused.) A. E. SwANSON, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. You reside at Barlow, N. Dak., do you? Mr. SwANSON. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you are cashier of the Securities State Bank? Mr. SwANSON. Yes, sir; I am president. Mr. BuNN. What town? Mr. SwANsoN. Barlow. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with the grain-buying conditions at that point — the elevator conditions? CAR SHORTAGE. 113 Mr. SwANSON. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How many elevators are there ? Mr. SwANSON. Five. Commissioner Harlan. How large a town is it, Mr. Swanson. Mr. Swanson. About 250 is the size of the town. Mr. Marble. Wliat railroad are you on? Mr. Swanson. The Northern Pacific. Mr. Marble. Are those elevators filleuluth Elevator Company Mr. Marble. Have they a supply of coal? Mr. Harris. They are out. 1 know the Duluth people filled theirs early in the spring, thinking there was going to be a coal strike. Commissioner Lane. What place is that? Mr. Harris. Bathgate, N. Dak. Commissioner Lane. You can not be criticised, then, for not pre- paring, so far as you have storage capacity ? Mr. Harris. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. And when did you begin to order again? Mr. Harris. Why, the 1st of September, and in August; I ordered coal in August. Commissioner Lane. Did you get that coal ? 124 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Harris. I got that coal quite promptly; yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Coal orderea in September you received? Mr. Harris. I did. Commissioner Lane. When did you cease to receive coal ? Mr. Harris. The last car I received was about the 1st of this month — it was ordered on the 24th of October, and it was the 1st of December before it came into Bathgate. Commissioner Lane. Do you know how long it was in transit? Mr. Harris. I do not think it was over four days. Commissioner Lane. Cars can go over the road in short time? Mr. Harris. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. That is all. Mr. Marble. Did I ask you as to the effect of the shortage on the price of grain in your town ? Mr. I^RRis. You did not. Mr. Marble. What has been the effect? Mr. Harris. Elevators have all bought on a higher margin than they ever did before, since I have seen in the grain business. Mr. Marble. You have bought on a wider margin? Mr. Harris. I have. I wish to say we have bought on a 6-cent margin part of the time, and then on a 2-cent margin early in the month, which was about our usual margin, until we found that the car situation was bad. I had wheat sold for November, and I had to buy wheat at Duluth the 1st of December to fill the obligation. Those things, with insurance, interest on the money — all have to be taken into consideration, so we have to borrow on a larger margin. Commissioner Harlan. What was that margin last year ? Mr. Harris. About 2 cents. Commissioner Harlan. This year? Mr. Harris. Five or 6 cents. Mr. Marble. The farmers get that much less for their grain? Mr. Harris. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do the farmers want to sell their grain? Mr. Harris. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You find them offering it — anxious to sell it? Mr. Harris. Yes, sir; but the whole town has not been blocked. The mill takes grain at all times and there is one large elevator there with 100,000 bushels capacity that has not been filled. The others have been filled. Mr. Marble. That is all. Commissioner Harlan. Has this affected generally the conditions in trade in your community ? Mr. Harris. Well, sir, I can not say that it has, because the farmers could sell and get their money whenever they brought their grain in, so, far this falH There are seven elevators there and a mill. This makes quite a large storage capacity, and they have been able to sell. If they could not sell at one house, they go to the other. Commissioner Harlan. So that the general effect is simph" differ- ence in price ? Mr. Harris. That is all. Commissioner Harlan. That is all. (Witness was excused.) CAB SHORTAGE. 125 Charles D. McCanna, called as a witness, being duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Your name is Charles McCanna? Mr. McCanna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Where do you reside? Mr. McCanna. At McCanna, N. Dak. Mr. Marble. What is your business? Mr. McCanna. Farming. Mr. Marble. Are you engaged in the grain business also? Mr. McCanna. Just famung. Mr. Marble. You ship your own grain? Mr. McCanna. Wh^', we ship when we can. Mr. Marble, You ship it when you can? Mr. McCanna. Yes. Mr. Marble. Rather than sell to elevators? Mr. McCanna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Wliat has been your experience this year in getting cars? Mr. McCanna. We could not get them. We got one car ourselves this year. Mr. Marble. How many did you try to get? Mr. McCanna. We had a standing order for two cars a day for three weeks. We got one car in that time. Mr. Marble. You raise grain, yourself, sufficient to justify that sort of an order? Mr. McCanna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know why you did not get them? Mr. McCanna. Only they did not have them — that is the only excuse they gave. Mr. Marble. Have the elevators in your town got plenty of cars? Mr. McCanna. No, sir; they have not. Mr. Marble. How many elevators are there? Mr. McCanna. There are two elevators that are operating al the present time — three elevators there, but one is not running. Mr. Marble. One is closed down ? Mr. McCanna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have they been full of grain? Mr. McCanna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Blocked? Mr. McCanna. Blocked most all the fall. . Mr. Marble. There has been no market at your town? Mr. McCanna. Practically none. They were blocked up to the first two or three weeks in September, and since then, once or twice, they have been able to carry small amounts, but it has been closed most of the fall — about two-thirds of the time. Mr. Marble. What has been the effect on the grain market at your town ? Mr. McCanna. Well, it is perhaps knocked out about a cent — between a cent and 2 cents — lower. Mr. Marble. Your neighbors had the same experience as you get- ting cars? Mr. McCanna. Well, the most of them shipped through the eleva- tors, but they can not get them at the elevators there. 126 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Farmers wanting to sell grain can not find any market ? Mr. McCanna, Had to store their grain in granaries. Have had a certain amount in elevators, but not nearly sufficient. They have had to §tore considerable. Mr. Marble. They desire to sell? Mr. McCanna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know about the coal situation in your town ? Mr. McCanna. The coal situation has not been so bad there. We got a car of coal the day I left there, but up to that time, for three or four days, they have been without coal. Mr. Marble. You are not a coal dealer? Mr. McCanna. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not ship your own coal ? Mr. McCanna. No, sir. Mr. Marble. What railroad are you on ? Mr. McCanna. The Great Northern. Mr. Marble. That is not a competitive point? Mr. McCanna. No. Mr. Marble. Are there competitive points near you? Mr. McCanna. No; there are not. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The witness was excused.) F. H. Dickinson, called as a witness, being duly sworn, was exam- ined and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. Your name is what? Mr. Dickinson. F. H. Dickinson. Mr. Marble. You reside at Ayre, N. Dak. ? Mr. Dickinson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is your business, Mr. Dickinson? Mr. Dickinson. Farming, now. Mr. Marble. Farming? Mr. Dickinson. Principally; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you in the grain-buying business at all? Mr. Dickinson. I have been, in previous years, but I am not doing an}^ of it now. Mr. Marble. Do you ship your own grain? Mr. Dickinson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What experience have you had this year in getting cars? Mr. Dickinson. Well, I have been unable to get any at all very recently. In the last ten days we have been getting some cars. Mr. Marble. Getting enough the last ten days? Mr. Dickinson. Yes, sir; all we could fill on account of the bad weather — roads are very bad now. Mr. Marble. Considerable snow up there? Mr. Dickinson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Previously, before the storm, you could not get cars? Mr. Dickinson. No, not until about ten dajs ago. I asked for one car early in the season, then from that up until within ten days ago we had been unable to get cars. Mr. Marble. Had none at all ? Mr. Dickinson. No, sir; none at all. CAR SHORTAGE. 127 Mr. Marble. What road are you on? Mr. Dickinson. The Great Northern. Mr. Marble. How many cars did you try to get? Mr. Dickinson. Well, I had an ortler in for cars all the while. You mean how many cars we could have used ? Mr. Marble. Yes; how many did you need ? Mr. Dickinson. Well, if I were to have shipped all the grain that I raised, I would have shipped about 18,000 bushels of grain. Mr. Marble. You wanted to ship it all ? Mr. Dickinson. Yes; that is, I would have some left, but, of course, I mean that is what I would have shipped if I could have got cars. Mr. Marble. You had shipped about 1 ,000 bushels up until the time ten daj's ago ? Mr. Dickinson. I shipped about 1,200 bushels. Mr. Marble. Are there elevators at your point ? Mr. Dickinson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have they been buying grain all season ? Mr. Dickinson. Well, they have been in the market to buy, but tliey have been filled up. Mr. Marble. So that there has not been any market, or have they been buying and putting on the ground ? Mr. Dickinson. No; have not been putting anv on the ground there. I have got the data here. From the 23d day of September to the 24th day of October the elevators told me there they did not have any cars and they were not taking any grain; that is, a lai^e portion of that time they were filled up — their capacity was full, and they were unable to ship on account of no cars. Mr. Marble. Do you know what the effect on the price in your town has been? Mr. Dickinson. I do not know as I do. Mr. Marble. You have not been selling to elevators then ? Mr. Dickinson. I have sold some, but very little; my grain has been — 1 built a number of granaries and bins. I have now about 5,000 bushels — 4,500 bushels up in open bins; but we are commencing to draw out of that now to fill the cars, as fast as we can get them. The roads are so bad we could make very little process now. I did not sell to elevators. I do not usually sefl much grain to the elevators if we can ship it, but this season I could not ship it, and while I may have possibly to put more in the elevator this year, it was because I could not get cars to ship the grain out; and I have no doubt but what it affected the price, and 1 thought it was policy to make bins, and I have not only built two pretty good-sizea granaries but have built a number of bins to store grain in. Mr. Marble. But would have shipped it if you had had the cars? Mr. Dickinson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are not a coal dealer? Mr. Dickinson. No, sir. Mr. Marble. What is the coal situation at your town? Mr. Dickinson. The coal situation is pretty bad. We have not had any coal for about four weeks and there was not a ton of coal in the town when I left there, and 1 had a long talk with one of the dealers there and he was pretty indignant over it — had quite a con- versation with him. I can tell you that, if you want to hear it. 128 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Tell us what that was — what that statement was? Mr. Dickinson. I knew I was coming down here. It was the Fanners' Elevator agent that told me this. It seems to me that he put in an application for a site to build a coal shed on — to the railroad company — and the matter was delayed. He wrote several times about it, but never got any answer, and the last time he tolls me he wrote he urged them to give him a site, so that he could get up a shed and get it filled with coal, and he never got any reply from them. He had ordered coal then, and he got one car on the 21st day of October, and at that time he had two or three cars ordered, but they have not arrived yet, and then, I think, day before yesterday, or just before that, he got word from the company that they were doing all they could to hurry this site. It was the division superintendent who was talking — he was doing all he could to hurry this matter of a site there to be settled, so that they could put up their coal shed; but he has only had this coal that arrived on the 21st of October. He had two cars ordered at that time, but they have not arrived yet. Mr. Marble. Any suffering in your place for want of coal ? Mr. Dickinson. Why, I do not think there has been any suffering yet, but if we do not get some coal soon there is liable to be suffering soon. Mr. Marble. Your coal dealer tried to get a site for a coal room Mr. Dickinson. He has not got that yet. Mr. Marble. He does not need it very badly now? Mr. Dickinson. Well, he has been shy of coal since the middle of November. He sold the balance of coal out. I have had three or four different farmers come to me — I have two lots of coal — standing in the back — I have been using that. I have had four diiferent farmers come to me to buy that coal. I told them when they got to freezing to come and get some of it. I do not think there is any suf- fering yet. Most of our farmers lay in their supply of fuel early in the winter and have had orders in to take out their coal, but it has not arrived. I got mine pretty early, and a number of others did also. I have not heard of any case where they have suffered. They are beginning to get a little anxious. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether these cars have been in transit or whether they have not been shipped at all ? Mr. Dickinson. I do not know about that. Mr. Marble. Is there anything you wish to offer? Mr. Dickinson. I do not think there is. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The witness was excused.) Commissioner Lane. I have received some more telegrams. One is from Danville, N. Dak., which reads: Interstate Commerce Commission, Minneapolis, Minn.: Dealers have had no coal for three weeks. Twelve tons railway coal have been parceled out in two and five hundred pound lots. Thirty tons railway coal now in cars. Permission to use it if necessary. Some suffering. Only those absolutely without fuel furnished with railway coal. In case of blizzard continuing several days, there will be intense suffering. Seventy-five per cent of the people have only enough to last five or six days. Ed. T. Pierson. The telegram does not say that permission has been given, but I presume that is the meaning of it. I shall telegraph to Mr. Pierson, CAB SHORTAGE. 129 who sends this telegram, notifying hini of the promise of the railroad company to reheve that situation. I also have a telegram from , N. Dak., as follows: Interstate Tommerce Commission, Minneapolis, Minn.: Three cars of soft coal; one hard in store. I.«st four days. Railway has 66 tons in store. No suffering reported. This coal just received. F. R. Cruden. And another dated Hanna, N. Dak. December 18, 1906. Interstate Commerce Commission, Minneapolis, Minn.: No coal in store here by dealers. No railroad coal in store in hin.s or cars. Some families without fuel. Will be great deal suffering if we do not get relief within few days. W. V. Hall, Postmaster. Cando, N. Dak., December 18, J90(i. Interstate Commerce Commission, Minneapolis, Mijin.: No coal in store. General supplv will last few days. One car yesterday — distrib- uted among over eighty families. I'wenty tons railway coal. No coal in store in cars. Numbers in town and country burning wood. C. B. McMillan. Hillsboro, N. Dak., December 17, 1906. Interstate Commerce Commission, Minneapolis, Minn.: One hundred and seventy-five tons hard coal. Eighty soft coal here. Supply will only last two weeks. No coal stored in cars. Estimate 230 tons railway coal here. No suffering here or surrounding country yet. K. R. Carley. Harvey, N. Dak., December 18, 1906. Interstate Commerce Commission, Minneapolis, Minn.: There is no coal in store in this city. Five cars received to-tlay. Will be gone in twenty-four hours, consumers. No prospect for more to-morrow. Harvey Farmers Co-Op. Assn. A. E, EoELAND, called as a witness, being duly sworn, was exam- ined and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. WTiat is your name? Mr. Egeland. A. E. P^geland. Mr. Marble. And you reside at Bisbee, N. Dak. ? Mr, Egeland. Yes. sir. Mr. Marble. On what railroad is that ( Mr. Egeland. It is at the intersection of the Great Northern and the Soo Line. Mr. Marble. You are at a competitive point 9 Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is your business? Mr. Egeland. Banker. Mr. Marble. Where is your bank located? Mr. Egeland. Bisbee. Mr. Marble. And you are interested in other banks as well ? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you interested in the grain businesvS, alsoi Mr. Egeland. No, sir. S. Doe. 333, 5I)-2 ^9 130 CAR SHOBTA6E. Mr. Marble. Have you had plenty of cars at Bisbee this year? Mr. Egeland. Enough to keep the elevators open. Not enough to supply the demands of the farmers and the independent shippers. Mr. ALvrble. Have the farmers and independent shippers had to go without, then? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. But the elevators have been kept open? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know what effect the shortage has had upon the market? Mr. Egeland. Why, the prices have been about 4 cents lower at Bisbee than they should have been under ordinaiy circumstances. Mr. Marble. About 4 cents lower than they would have been if there had been transportation facilities? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. The farmers lost that? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have near-by noncompetitive points on these roads, have you not ? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What has been the car situation at the noncompet- itive points ? Mr. Egeland. They have had no cars, practically. Mr. Marble. Worse than at Bisbee? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Now, do you speak of both these railroads when you say that ? Mr. Egelant). Whj', \es, I think so. Mr. Marble. Both of them have served Bisbee better than the noncompetitive points? Mr. Egelant). On either line ? Mr. Marble. Yes; Mr. Egeland. No, I would not say that. Bisbee has an unusually large elevator capacity, which may in some measure account for the fact that they have been able to buy grain, whereas there are points that have only one elevator, that have not been able to get the cars they need. Mr. Marble. You think, so far as car shortage is concerned, they have all been treated alike? Mr. Egeland. Practically so. Mr. Marble. You have made loans on wheat, have you not? Mr. Egelant). Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. More than usual? Mr. Egeland. Why, no. Less than usual, because I have found that my loans on wheat have usually been through men that wanted to ship, and thev would have a carload or two to ship at a time and we would get the bills of lading, and that would cancel our loan; but this year, on accoimt of the car shortage, they could not make independent shipments, and for that reason we felt they would be haulmg their wheat and selling a load here and there and we did not care to make that kind of loans; and we would make loans on other securities rather than make it on the wheat. Mr. Marble. You consider wheat not as good security this year as when farmers could get cars ? CAB SHORTAGE. 131 Mr. EoELAND. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And declined to loan money to fanners on wheat? Mr. Egei^vxd. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you loaned on wheat at noncompetitive points! Mr. Egeland. Yes; I have loaned on storage tickets. Mr. Marble. Storage tickets? Mr. Egeland. We always loan on storage tickets. Mr. Marble. On Durum wheat? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir; and any grain in storage. Mr. Marble. Have vou yourself tried to get cars to ship out wheat which had l>een hvpothecated to you? Mr. Egeland. Yes; in one instance. Mr. Marble. Tell us about that effort that you made. Mr. Egeland. A fanner plac<»d wheat in store at a to\\Ti about .3 miles north of Bisl)ee, on the Great Northern. This was on the 22d or 24th of September. He immediately placed an order for a car, so that he could ship it. After a while, wlien he saw that he did riot get any cars, he came to me and borrowed some money and put the storage ticket up as collateral, and after about six weeks, I think, from the time when he had stored his wheat he came again and a.skecl me to assist him to get a car. I took the stor^e ticket and claimed the wheat as mine and tried to get the cars. That is a little over a month ago. I have not got any yet. Last Saturday before 1 left I telephoned to the elevator to sell that wheat, as wo did not care to pay storage on it any longer, as there was no prospect of getting cars. Mr. Marble. That resulted in a loss to the farmer in the sale of that wheat, did it not? Mr. Egeland. It will result in a loss of about 10 cents a bushel in this particular instance. Mr. Marble. As well as the interest charged ? Mr. Egeland. I think so. Mr. Marble. You contemplated hauling that into Bisbee in wagons at one time? Mr. Egeland. I did; I threatened that, if they could not get a car at the point of storage, I would haul it to Bisoee, about 3 miles, and get a car from the Soo. Mr. Marble. Do you think you could do that? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you know that you could ? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Why did you not do it? Mr. Egeland. The snowstorms and the roads got so bad that it was practically impossible to haul it. Mr. Marble. Have farmers sold wheat to line elevator companies here who otherwise would have shipped if they could get cars? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you heard talk of that sort? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Farmers resented it? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. They did not want to sell to line elevators? Mr. Egeland. Preferred to ship. Mr. Marble. But they have had to sell to line companies? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. 132 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble, The last thirty days you have had a snowstorm? Mr. Egeland. Practically, we have had a continual blizzard for thirty days. Mr. Marble. What has the effect been generally, on business con- ditions, of this car service failure, as you see them at your bank ? Mr. Egeland. No collections have been made, no sales to mer- chants to speak of, as they should be this time of the year, on account of farmers having no money. The merchants can not collect, the machinery dealers can not collect, the machinery dealers borrow money, and the farmers borrow money. We have had an exceptional call for loans and funds. Deposits are going down, whereas the opposite should be the fact at tnis time of the year. Mr. Marble. That is all. Mr, Bright, You do not mean to say that all the farmers out there prefer to ship in their grain, or desire to ship it in, independendy? Mr, Egeland, Yes; I think that anyone who has grain enough to make a carload or two cars, Mr. Bright, I know; but the great majority of farmers prefer to haul grain and sell it to the elevators, Mr, Egeland, Not if they can get the cars themselves, Mr, Bright, You do not know that, do you ? Mr, Egeland, I have heard a great deal of talk to that effect, Mr, Marble, They sometimes start farmers' elevators, do they not? Mr, Egeland, There is some talk of that at the present time, Mr, Marble, Even with that they prefer to ship a good many cars themselves ? Mr, Egeland. I do not know that they would. Still some would who live close to hand and who can deliver wheat from the machine direct to the cars. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know about what the total pro- duction of grain was in your county this year ? Mr. Egeland. I do not. Commissioner Harlan, What was it last year? Mr. Egeland. The number of bushels? Commissioner Harlan. Yes. Mr. Egeland. I could not say as to the number of bushels, but the crop last year, I think, was about 20 bushels to the acre — an average crop last year. Commissioner Harlan. You do not know, then, what the aggre- gate was? Mr. Egeland, No; I could not say. (The witness was excused.) R. M. ViGNESS, called as a witness, being duly sworn, was exam- ined and testified as follows : Mr. Marble, You reside at Grafton, N. Dak. ? Mr, ViGNESS, Yes, sir, Mr, Marble, What is your business? Mr ViGNESS. At the present time, county treasurer; my business has been a farmer, Mr, Marble, Are you familiar with the shipping situation at your point? Mr. ViGNESS, To a certain extent; yes. CAR SHORTAGE. 133 Mr, Marble. Have you had plenty of cars this year? Mr. ViGNESs. No, sir; the car shortage is a very serious question with us over in Grafton. Mr. Marble. What railroad are you on? Mr. ViGNESs. The Great Northern and the Union Pacific. Mr. Marble. A competitive point, then? Mr. ViGNESs. Yes. Mr. Marble. Have your elevators been filled with wheat this vear? Mr. ViONESs. Yes; they have been comparatively so, altnough the mill is the worst off. The mill can not get cars to ship away the flour. It has got at present 17 orders — ^for 17 carloads — of flour; that is foi|Bmall towns out around in the Northwest there. Mr. Marble. Is the mill closed down ? Mr. ViGNESs. Yes; closed down Saturday when I left. Mr. Marble. Because they can not get cars ? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Any of the elevators closed down ? Mr. ViONESS. No; the elevators have been kept going pretty well. Mr. Marble. Have farmers had trouble in getting cars to ship their grain ? Mr. VioNESS. Oh, yes; farmers can not get hardly any cars at all. I was trying to get some myself, but could not get any. Some have been fortunate enough to get them. Mr. Marble. You could not get any? Mr. ViGNEss. No. Mr. Marble. What did you do with yoiu* grain ? Mr. ViGNESs. Hauled into a granary. Mr. Marble. Stored it? Mr. ViGNEss. Yes. Mr. Marble. Do you ship your grain from Grafton? Mr. ViGNESS. I have shipped it, out for the last two years I have not been able to get cars; out usually before I have shipped it, until the last two years. Mr. Marble. Well, did you ship it this year? Mr. ViGNESs. No; I sold it to tne elevators. Mr. Marble. You would have shipped it if you had had cars ? Mr. ViGNESS. I would have shipped it from the macliine. I do not generally do that, but this year I could get no cars. Mr. Marble. How much grain do you raise? Mr. ViGNESS. This year we had a light crop, and I only have a half section of land myself. Mr. Marble. Do you know what difference it makes to you in the price? Mr. ViGNESS. It made a difference of 4 or 5 cents. Mr. Marble. Other farmers had the same experience? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And the elevators do not get cars enough, or do they? Mr. ViGNESS. No; they do not, and those that they have loaded have not been moved. There were three cars on the track Saturday that were loaded and have been there since about the 4th of December. Mr. Marble. Loaded on the 4th of December and not moved ? Mr. ViGNESs. One on the Northern Pacific and two on the Great Northern. 134 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Have you made a memorandum of any other instances of that sort ? Mr. ViGNESS. No ; I can give you the number of these cars on the track, those three, if vou want them. Mr. Anderson, he is — he is the local buyer who loaded one car; his car number is 4274, December 4; and this is still at Grafton. Mr. Marble. What is the road on that car? Mr, ViGNESS. Great Northern. Northern Pacific car 3837, December 6; still in Grafton. Then he shipped one to St. Cloud November 3, and he got returns Decem- ber 1. There have been quite a number a long time on the road always. Mr. Marble. Is there a general complaint of slowness of movement ? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes; it is, as a rule, very slow. He says he would have lost. He said he had a big margin, but he just about lost it. He had to borrow money in order to keep up his trade; pay for his wheat. Mr. Marble. So that the buyer did not really make this large margin, but lost it because of the bad condition he met with in dis- posing of the wheat ? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan, What was his margin? Mr. ViGNESS. Between 5 and 6 cents. That has been the general rule this fall. Commissioner Harlan. How many bushels of wheat had he bought under that margin? A&. ViGNESS. I could not say that; I did not inquire into it, and I could not give a definite answer as to that. Commissioner Harlan. He has lost his margin? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes, sir; in some instances. Mr. Marble. What is the coal situation in your town, sir? Mr. ViGNESS. There were two weeks we did not have any coal at all. The county had a little. One of the lumber yards had a car- load that belonged to the county, and they helped them out ; but we got two cars Friday before I left. That is all the coal they have now in the yard. Mr. Marble. How long would two cars last? Mr. ViGNESS. They won't last long. Ours is quite a thickly settled country and the inhabitants of the town number 2,500. Mr. Marble. Two cars of coal won't reach very far? Mr. ViGNESS. No. Mr. Marble. Do they all burn coal? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes; pretty much — probably a half bum wood, but not many. Mr. Marble. Have you talked with your coal deajers? Mr. ViGNESS. I have been trying to get coal, myself, for the church down there; but I could not get soft coal. Mr. Marble. Could not get coal ? Mr. ViGNESS. No. Mr. Marble. Did the dealers tell you they had coal on the road ? Mr. ViGNESS. They told me they had orders for a month to three weeks — some of them had orders out. Mr. Marble. Do you loiow whether it has been shipped ? Mr. ViGNESS. They did not know. Some of them — the St. Law- CAK SHORTAGE. 135 rence Lumber Company was expecting a car — had received the bill it was shipped, but they nad not received the car. Conmiissioner HabLan. Have the schools in your county had enough coal? Mr. ViGNESs. Yes; the school has been very fortunate — that is, the city school. I do not know how it is with the county schools. Commissioner Harlan. The schools have closed ? Mr. ViGNESs. No; I have not heard of any schools in the county that have closed on account of fuel. Commissioner Harlan. Do your know what the total production of grain in your county was last year? Mr. ViGNESs. No, sir; I could not tell vou that. The Egert Mill- ing Company have their elevator in Walhalla. Tliey had only two cars all fall, and the elevator has been closed since the middle of October. Mr. BuNN. Do the farmers in your countrj' all sell their wheat in the fall, or carry it through ? Mr. ViGNEss. Well, pretty much, especially this fall, on account of there being a small crop and low price, an^ their wanting to meet their expense — why, they had to sell more or less to get along. Mr. BuNN. In previous years have they been selling all theu* wheat in the fall? Mr. ViGNESS. Well, not all; about half of it, or so, they have sold in the fall. Mr. BuNN. And what did they do with the other half? Mr. ViGNESS. They generally put it in their granaries. Mr. BuNN. And carry it over until spring? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes. Mr. Marble. Have more or fewer cars been shipped from your town this year than in previous years ? Mr. ViGNESS. Fewer, I guess. We did not have as large a crop as last. Mr. Marble. And not so many have been shipped as the farmers wanted to ship? Mr. ViGNESS. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. We will now take an aiijoumment until 2 o'clock p. m. to-day. (Thereupon, at 12.30 p. m., the Commission adjourned.) AFTER RECESS. Commissioner Lane. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Marble? Mr. \L\RBLE. Yes, sir. I will call Mr. Egeland again. There is a question I wish to ask him. A. Egeland, recalled. Mr. Marble. Mr. Egeland, is your town on a branch line that extends into Canada? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is wheat from Canada carried over that road? Mr. Egeland. That is what I understand. Mr. Marble. You have seen cars, have you? Mr. Egeland. I have seen cars with big red labels going through our town; yes, sir. 136 Car shortage. Mr. Marble. Red labels? Did you see what was on them ? Mr. Egeland. I have not been over to read them, but have had my attention called to the cars by people saying that there goes a car loaded with Canadian wheat; foolc at the red label. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether the empty cars are being hauled past American elevators to get Canadian wheat ? Mr. Egeland. I could not say as to that. I have seen a number of trains, more than usual, going north over that line. Mr. Marble. With empty cars? Mr. Egeland. Some empty and some loaded. There has been some railway construction going on across the line. Mr. Marble. There has been railway construction, and the cars have been brought back loaded with Canadian wheat? Mr. Egeland. That is my understanding. Mr. Marble. Do you know about the question of the handling of this Canadian wheat ? Mr. Egeland. It has been reported to me that at the towns of Hansbrough, Sarles, and Hannah, which are located close to the Canadian line, wheat is being brought across loaded into cars, and taken m preference to wheat raised on this side of the line. Mr. Marble. That is one of the grievances up in your country? Mr. Egeland. That is one of the grievances up in this country" which I was asked to bring before the Commission if possible to do so. Mr. Marble. And who requested you to do that? Mr. Egeland. I was requested by Mr. David McKenna and a man by the name of Durham, and also a man by the name of Langdon. Mr. Marble. Those are farmers? Mr. Egeland. Landowners and elevator men, and my attention has been called to it by merchants and farmers in general. That is the reason why they can't get cars on our line for their shipments. Mr. Marble. You think that they have discriminated against you in favor of Canadian wheat ? Mr. Egeland. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. There is no reason why that should be, is there? What would be the object of the railroad company in dis- criminating against your people in tavor of Canadian wheat ? Mr. Egeland. I presume the Canadian roads would take that wheat if our roads did not get in ahead of them and take it. Commissioner Lane. There is competition there between your roads and the Canadian roads? Mr. Egeland. Across the line, it would seem so. Commissioner Lane. What Canadian road comes down there ? Mr. Egeland. I think the Canadian Northern and the Canadian Pacific, both. I am not entirely sure as to that, but that is my understanding. Those shipments I spoke of are instances from St. John, N. Dak., and Brandon, Manitoba. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The witness was excused.) M. J. DooLEY, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Your name is M. J. Dooley ? Mr. Dooley. M. J. Dooley ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you reside in St. Paul? CAB SHORTAGE. 137 Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you are superintenclent of the Minnesota Trans- fer Railway Company ? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is the name of ihe concern, is it? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is that railroad ? Mr. DooLEY. The Terminal company composed of ten lines oper- ating in this section of the country for the interchange of traffic between the lines. Mr. Marble. Is it for the switching of cars? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir; the switching of cars from one line to the other principally. Mr. aIarble. And do you also transfer goods from car to car ? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. The purpose of that being to release the equipment of the lines originating the traffic? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. And to get the freight into the cars of the line taking Mr. Marble. the traffic? Mr. Dooley, Mr. Marble Mr. Dooley, Mr. Marble, Yes, sir. • Do you transfer freight both ways? Yes, sir. How many cars per day have you capacity to handle without having an accumulation or congestion? Mr. Dooley. We are handling at the present time about twenty- four to twenty-sLX hundred cars, which is our capacity. Mr. Marble. You are about up to your cai)acity? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you congested ? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you transfer n-\y irrain from car to car? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. None at all? Mr. Dooley. Except one elevator on our line, and two oil mills. Mr. Marble. Two what? Mr. Dooley. Two oil mills which handle flax. Mr. Marble. Then you do handle some grain? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You transfer from car to car? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You store it? Mr. Dooley. There is a private elevator — the Northwestern Ele- vator Company — located on our lines, a private enterprise. They receive considerable grain at certain seasons of the year. Mr. Marble. Supposing grain comes in a Great Northern car, if there is any such to be tranaerred to an outgoing road, who transfers that? Mr. Dooley. As a general thing the Great Northern cars run through unless they are in bad order, and in case they are in bad order we make the transfer ourselves. Mr. Marble. Have you been congested during this crop year at this terminal? Mr. Dooley. Somewhat congested during the month of October. 138 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. Marble. How far behind have you been in your work? Mr. DooLEY. At one time I think we had about 300 cars held back on the Northern Pacific, about 100 on the Great Northern, and per- haps the same number on the Soo. Mr. Marble. Now, vou are giving the figures at the worst ? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How long did that continue ? Mr. DooLEY. On the Northern Pacific possibly two weeks, and on the Great Northern and on the Soo line possibly one week, Mr. Marble. As far as you know have there been congestions of grain cars in your city? Mr. DooLEY. I do not know anything about it. Mr. Marble. You are not advised as to that ? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. How many cars are in your yards to-day ? Mr. Dooley. I have not to-day's figures- Yesterday 1,270. Mr. Marble. Twelve hundred and seventy? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you transferred yesterday about how many? Mr. Dooley. About 2,400 cars — ^that is, about 2,400 cars moved through the yards. Mr. Marble. For how many of those did you transfer the goods from car to car? Mr. Dooley. We unloaded yesterday 136 cars of less than carload freight and 88 cars of carload freight. Mr. Marble. Do you warehouse those goods that you transfer from car to car at all ? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. ^Iarble. Do vou always have cars of connecting lines ready to meet the car which is to be released ? Mr. Dooley. As a usual thing; ves, sir. Mr. Marble. You find that feasible and practicable? Mr. Dooley. We could not handle it unless we did. Mr. Marble. How often have you had cars waiting for connecting cars — cars to which the stuff is to be transferred? Mr. Dooley. Frequently. Mr. Marble. How many cars are usually waiting now? Mr. Dooley. Last night there were 122 carloads of carload freight that were not handled yesterday, although we had from vesterday's unloading — had approximately cars enough to take care of the entire business. Mr. Marble. Ready? Mr. Dooley. That would be ready for switching to-night. Mr. Marble. Take it during this present crop year. Mr. Dooley. Our congestion this year, or at least our car shortage, has been more acute than generally before for four or five years, where we have not had a car shortage for handling such business as you speak of. Mr. Marble. WTiat do you mean by acute, rather than general? Mr. Dooley. We have been short of cars for a specific line, for a few days only. Mr. Marble. Any line in particular? Mr. Dooley. Most all of them at some time during the last six weeks. CAB SHORTAGE. 139 Mr. Marble. And for how lon^r would you be short of cars? Mr. DooLEY. Not more than a week for any one line. Mr. Marble. Not more than a week for any one line^ Now, how many cars have you had waiting at any time — waiting for cars to meet them? Mr. DooLEY. The highest number of cars we had left over was 240. Mr. Marble. Waiting for cars from connecting lines? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir; and our own inability to transfer the goods. Mr. Marble. Leaving out the inability to transfer the goods, how many cars have you had waiting for cars from connecting lines? Mr. Dooley. 'Sot more than 200. Mr. Marble. For how long have they waited — for a week ? Mr. Dooley. Not longer. They have not waited longer than an entire week, I would say, but usually they transfer the older loads first. Mr. Marble. Have you considered the advisability of having a warehouse to release such cars here and give quicker service to the public? Mr. Dooley. We have a storage vard for the purpose of releasing the commodity of which we transfer most — Pacific coast shingles — and where the congestion is bad we invariably unload the traffic on the ground and let it remain there until such time as cars are plentiful. Mr. Marble. As to Pacific coast shingles — you do store them ? Mr, Dooley. As to Pacific coast shingles, yes; we do store them. Mr. Marble. And do you need warehouse facilities for other classes of freight in order to aid you to serve the public quickly? Mr. PooLEY. We are better orf without a warenouse; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are better off without a warehouse ? Mr. Dooley. Without a warehouse; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And why is that? Mr. Dooley. Because we transfer directly from car to car, and the demand for dars is such that it forces us to do it that way all the time, whereas if we had a warehouse we would have to put it in there and take it out, and it would cause more or less delay in that warehouse. Mr. Marble. This question of cars waiting for cars from connect- ing lines — holding the cars — how great a lactor is that m the car shortage ? Mr. Dooley. Not very great this year. Mr. Marble. Don't your railroads have warehouses at Minneapolis? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Where have those cars sometimes stood? Have they not stood there in that yard for a time? Mr. Dooley. I do not think they would. Mr. Marble. Don't they remain for a time at that point ? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You are not advised as to that? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You say that you had in October a congestion? Mr. Dooley. Somewhat; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And a good many cars could not get on your tracks at all? Mr. Dooley. A good many cars could not get on our tracks at all. 140 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. Marble. And on your tracks at that time you had about how many cars ? Mr. DooLEY. It averaged from 2,400 to 2,500 cars, I think. Mr. Marble. How many would there be that would not be un- loaded 'i Mr. Dooley. The merchandise traffic as running, about 200 cars per day. Mr. Marble. They were not unloaded? Mr. Dooley. They were not unloaded. Mr. Marble. How much were you behmd in your business at that time? Mr. Dooley. Practically half a day's business behind. Mr. Marble. That would be about 1,500 cars? Mr. Dooley. Fifteen hundred cars; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is your terminal large enough ? Mr. Dooley. In what way ? Mr. Marble. In the matter of the facilities of the sort you testified you think that would be necessary. Have you enough ? Mr. Dooley. We are getting more as fast as we can. Mr. Marble. Getting more? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. They are being increased ? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. By next year you think that such delays as you have testified to can be avoided? Mr. Dooley. Not if the business mcreases proportionately, as it did last year. Mr. Marble. How much did it mcrease last year ? Mr. Dooley. Practically 30 per cent. Mr. Marble. The business on through carL increased 30 per cent ? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And also business — cars to be transferred? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Both ? Mr. Dooley. Both. M Marble. It is only through trains you deal with? You do not 'leal with Minneapolis and St. Paul? Mr. Dooley. We have nothing to do with Minneapolis and St. Paul. Mr. Marble. You have nothing to do with them at all? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all. Commissioner Lane. How is your road managed? By the com- panies who own stock in it? . Mr. DtK)LEY. Yes, sir; by each companv as a member of the board of directors. They have a president besides. Commissioner Lane. And they select the management ? The man- agement of the concern is independent of any of the railroad com- panies? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane*. You operate that, in a sense, then, as a sepa- rate system? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. C ' issioner Lane. What would vou sav a reasonable time would CAR SHORTAGE. 141 be in transferring a train, we will say, that is made up of twenty cars to be distributed between five different roads at a junction point? What time ought it take to distribute and divide up that train? Mr. DooLEY. That is, have you in mind the going to a connecting line? Commissioner I^ne. Going to connecting lines. Mr. DooLEY. If all the cars were through, without transfer, and not in bad order, twenty-four hours would be reasonable. Commissioner Lane. If there is a town up in North Dakota 250 miles from Duluth, and you take that, and the ordinary time of run- ning at the rate of speed of 10 miles an hour would lu' twenty-five hours on a continuous passa^, what time ought to bo taken up in the switching up, in the switching of cars during that [Hiriod of passage ? Mr. DooiJJY. I am not prepared to say. Commissioner Lane. Would a period of eight days be reasonable ? Mr. Dooley. It would depend upon conditions. Commissioner Lane. You think eight days might be consumed where there was but one junction point? Mr. DooLEY. It might be, but I do not think it ought to be. Commissioner Lane. As a railroad man, do you know why it takes ten days ordinarily for a car to go 250 miles? Mr. Dooley. Tfiat would depend upon how many terminals it had to go through, largely. Commissioner Lane. Suppose you had no terminals to go through. Mr. Dooley. It ought not to take ten days. Mr. Marble. Just one question. "When you spoke of delay result- ing from warehousing, you meant delay to goods in transit? Mr. Dooley. Into the warehouse. Mr. Marble. Delay to goods in the warehouse and not delay to the cars? Mr. Dooley. Not to the cars. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Dooley, I understand that during the summer, with the exception of one or two intervals, you cleaned up the work there ? Mr. Dooley. We were never cleaned up. .li Commissioner Harlan. Practically so J "^ ' Mr. Dooley. Practically so, yes, sir. .' Commissioner Harlan. That is all. Mr. Begg. You spoke of there lx»ing occasions when you would have cars held on transfer on account of lack of cars of other lines to transfer to. Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Be(J(;. Have those delays been chiefly on account of eastern lines failing to furnish cars? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. And not on account of we.stem lines? Mr. Dooley. No, sir. We most always have a surplus of western line cars. Commissioner Lane. That is a very interesting statement. In fact, have you had an abundance of cars on those two lines, so that they have been sufficient — that you have had sufficiency of cars to meet the demands upon you ? . , . Mr. Dooley. There has been, with the possible exception o\ mty- 142 CAB SHORTAGE. four hours or so. The Great Northern and Northern Pacific and Soo lines business is particular business coming one way, and there are a great many cars — of their cars, and we always have cars at our terminals. Commissioner Lane. The Great Northern and the Soo? Mr. DooLEY. And the Northern Pacific. Commissioner Lane. And the Northern Pacific. And you have found no insufficiency of cars at any time extending over a period of twenty-four hours? Mr. DooLEY. Over a period of twenty- four to fortjr-eight houre. Commissioner Lane. From twenty-four to forty-eight hours. Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. And when you unload a car to transfer it you, with those exceptions, can get sufficient cars on those lines ? Mr. DooLEY. Yes. sir. Commissioner Lane. And in this period you say that on the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific and Soo lines there was no such thing as a car shortage, so far as you experience goes ? Mr. DooLEY. There has been a shortage on the Northern Pacific and Soo lines, so far as my experience goes, but that shortage we filled out here as a rule. Commissioner Lane. Filled out with what ? Mr. DooLEY. With cars making empty coming over those lines. Commissioner Lane. Their cars; that belong to them? Mr. DooLEY. That we made empty there transferring the loading. Mr. Marble. Just one question more. Have you shipped empties by one of the other of these roads? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir ; frequently. Mr. Marble. Running the empties to the country ? Mr. DooLEY. Yes. sir; we don't run to the country ourselves. Wo send them to the Minneapolis terminal as a rule. Mr. Marble. Do you understand that they have been run to the country empty? Mr. Dooley. I do not know about that. Mr. Marble. You don't know about that at all? Mr. DooLEY. No. Mr. Begg. Have you not on a number of occasions allowed western line cars to go through to destination without transfer, because you could get the car back quicker that way than by waiting for cars from the connecting lines ? Mr, DooLEY. Mr. Begg, we transfer only a small portion of western line cars that we receive. Mr. Begg. A great many of them go through ? Mr. Dooley. a great many of them go through. Mr. Begg. Even then you have to wait sometimes? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Dooley, here is really where a great many of Northern Pacific, Great Northern, and Soo line cars are made empty ( Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. That is at Minneapolis and St. Paul and at the Minne- sota Transfer with other eastern railways? Mr. DooLEY. Yes, sir. - Mr. BuNN. That is all. CAB SHORTAGE. 143 Mr. Marble. You don't make any empties on St. Paul and Minne- apolis business ? Mr. DooLEY. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You have nothing to do with those empties, have you? Mr. DooLEY. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You simply know about them as a railroad man? Mr. Dooley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Those arc wheat cars that are made empty? Mr. DooLEY. I do not know anything about what they do. Mr. Marble. You do not know what traffic it is that makes the empty cars? Mr. Dooley. Wheat, usually, of course. Mr. Marble. Do you know of the volume of this year as compared with previous ye^irs? Mr. DooLEY. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not know about that? Mr. Dooley. No. Mr. Marble. What sort of through traffic is it from the North and Northwest, of which you relieve the cars? Mr. DooLEY. We have a list. I did not bring it with me. It is a long transfer list which includes a largo number of commodities that the roads have considered might he damaged in handling in transfer. Those commodities, when loaded, are permitted to run through in the original cars. All other commodities, where damage will not result from unloading, are being transferred from car to car. Mr. Marble. Fruit, for instance, you do not transfer? Mr. DooLEY. What commodity? Mr. Marble. Fruit ; you do not transfer that ? Mr. DooLEY. No, sir. Mr. Marble. "\Miat else, for instance ? What is the most of it ? Mr. DooLEY. Machinery. Mr. Marble. What do you transfer the most of from the North and Northwest at the present time? Mr. DooLEY. Shingles and flour. Mr. Marble. Shingles from the Pacific coast? Mr. DooLEY. Shingles from the Pacific coast and flour. Mr. Marble. Flour from where? Mr. DooLEY. Various North Dakota and Minnesota mills. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The witness was excused.) D. Larson, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. "\Miat is your name ? Mr. Larson. D. Larson. Mr. Marble. You reside at Cummings, N. Dak.? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you are interested in an elevator company there? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. The Farmers' Elevator? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And any other business? Mr. Larson. Yes; I am cashier of a bank. 144 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Of what bank? Mr. Larson. The Cummings State Bank. Mr. Marble. How long have you been interested in the grain busi- ness ? Mr. Larson. Since 1899. Mr. Marble. Have you been short of transportation facilities at that point this year ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir ; the two last seasons. Mr. Marble. For two years? Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Marble. Has your elevator been filled with wheat? Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Marble. Out of the market? Mr. Larson. It has been full for about five weeks. Mr. Marble. It has been full for five weeks ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And previous to that was it filled? Mr. Larson. No; it was filled just about the 10th of October, and we got a little room just about the 25th of November. Mr. Marble. About the 25th of November you were relieved some- what? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Last year was your elevator full? Mr. Larson. Yes; about the same time. Mr. Marble. Did you suffer as much last year as this? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Before that, what had been the situation in previous years? Mr. Larson. We had ample cars. Mr. Marble. Ample cars ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you have more cars than you had last year and this year ? Mr. Larson. A ^ood deal more. Mr. Marble. This year the crop is larger? Mr. Larson. Oh, no ; the crop is somewhat smaller. Mr. Marble. Fewer cars last year and this? Mr. Larson. Yes; in 1899 we handled 270,000 bushels, and last season we were only able to handle 100,000, and so far this season about 60,000. Mr. Marble. Is the wheat in the country? If you could get the cars you could buy more ? Mr. Larson. Yes; it is there. Of course our station is not the only one. The line houses have facilities to handle the grain, but of course we, being a farmers' elevator, handle the bulk of it, so our busi- ness is cut down. Mr. Marble. And the line elevators are left in control of the market ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir; for the time we are filled, and of course it increases our expenses in the way of interest and insurance. Mr. Marble. Interest on the grain held in the house ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And insurance ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. CAB SHORTAGE. 145 Mr. Marble. Did you apply for cars? Mr. Larson. Oh, yes; we applied right along, and I had written to the train dispatcher at Grand Forks several times, and the division superintendent, and I called him up by phone, and several times pre- viously have been ordering at local stations. Mr. Marble. Has any explanation been made to you why they don't give them to you ? Mr. Larsox. Not any. Mr. Marble. You testified as to the number of bushels you handled. How much was the business cut down ? Mr. Larson. About 75 per cent the two last seasons. Mr. Marble. "\Miat is tne effect upon the market of this failure of transportation facilities? Mr. Larson. At our station it don't affect us any. The line houses are paying good prices for grain. Mr. Marble. Good prices? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not think the farmers have lost? Mr. Larson. Oh, no; the farmers have not lost. Mr. Marble. You are on a branch line, are you? Mr. Larson. We are on a line between the Grand Forks and Fargo. Mr. Marble. Is this the Great Northern ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir; the Great Northern. Mr. ^Larble. As to the cars that you have shipped, have they gone forward promptly? Mr. Larson. Fairly so. Mr. Marble. Have they moved promptly after being loaded ? Mr. Larson. Cars have been standing on the track about a week; that has l)een the limit. Mr. Marble. How many cars have stood there a week ? Mr. LARSt)N. I should say at the station probably about a dozen cars. Mr. Marble. A dozen at a time, do you mean ? Mr. Larson. All told. Mr. Marble. And those all told stood about a week? Mr. Lar.son. Yes. Mr. Marble. How far are you from Duluth? Mr. Lars^in. Well, I should say about 250 miles. Mr. Marble. How long does it take your cars to get from your sta- tion to Duluth? Mr. Larson. Oh, generally about six days. Mr. Marble. Alx)ut six days? Mr. Larson. I should say so. Mr. Marble. You are on the main line? Mr. LARst)N. I suppose it is the main line. Mr. Marble. Do you deal in coal? Mr. Larson. No; we dealt in coal (hiring 1800 and 1000, but after tlint the coal companies refused to sell us coal. Mr. Marble. Why was that? Mr. Larson. T suppose that we were not in the trust. Mr. Marble. Did they tell you that was the reason? Mr. Marble. They told us they could not sell coal for the reason that other dealers obiected to it. S. Doc. 333. 59-2 10 146 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Do you know what other dealers? Mr. Larson. I should think the Valley Coal Company. Mr. Marble. Did they tell you what other dealers objected? Mr. Larson. No; they did not, but they are the only dealers in town or were the only dealers at the time. Now, the Valley Elevator Company handles the coal. Mr. Marble. Did they go into the coal business since you were forced out of it ? Mr. Larson. Into the coal business ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you try more than one company? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir ; three or four. Mr. Marble. Did you get the same answer from all ? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Was there any complaint about the prices you sold coal at? Mr. Larson. Yes; we sold it cheaper than the other companies. Mr. Marble. Did they tell you that you sold it cheaper? Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Marble. Did they give you that as one of the reasons? Mr. Larson. That was one of the reasons, and they said we did not have any regular coal warehouse. Mr. Marble. No regular coal warehouse? Mr. Larson. We sold out of the car. Mr. Marble. You sold out of the car? Mr. Larson. Yes. Mr. Marble. The railroad company did not object to that? Mr. Larson. Not any. Mr. Marble. The coal companies did? Mr. Larson. The coal companies did. Mr. Marble. Wliat is the supply of coal at your point now? Mr. Larson. So far as suffering is concerned, we have not suffered from a lack of coal. Mr. Marble. You are not suffering: now ? Mr. Larson. No. Mr. Marble. You are cashier of a bank? Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Can you tell us what you see of this thing in your bank — what the effect is there ? Mr. Larson. It has no effect in the bank for the reason that the farmers can sell the grain right along. Mr. Marble. If the farmers sold the grain, you find that the loans don't increase ? Mr. Larson. Only so far as the shortage of the crop generally. Mr. BuNN. There was a shortage of crops this year in the low fork in the Red River Valley ? Mr. Larson. The short crop commenced 8 miles south of us. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Larson, what I mean is that that is a local condi- tion in the low part of the Red River Valley. Mr. Larson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You did not get as many cars as last year? Mr. Larson. No. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The witness was excused.) CAR SHORTAGE. 147 F. Bell, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as fol- lows : Mr, Marble. Mr. Bell is your name i Mr, Bell. Ves, sir, Mr. Marble, And you i-eside at Montrose, Minn.? Mr. Bell, Yes, sir. Mr, Marble. And you are superintendent? Mr, i^ELL. Ves, sir. Mr. Marble. For what road i Mr, Bell, Great Northern, Mr, Marble. As superintendent what ai*e your duties? Mr. Bell, To exercise general sn|x»rvisiou over all of the business in my territory. Mr. Marble, You direct the makin|i^ up of trains? Mr, Bell, indii-ectly, Mr, Marble, And have supervision of the dispatching? Mr, Bell, Yes, sir. Mr. Marble, And overlook the pay rolls? Mr, Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And the movement of trains? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you bring in any sheets or documents with you? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. \\Tiat did you bring? Mr. Bell. I brought the train dispatcher's sheets, covering a pe- riod from June 1 to date. Mr, Marble. \Miere are they? Mr, Bell, In the room. Mr. Marble. W'here in the room? Will you get pos.session of them? Mr. Bell. Yes; they are over in the corner there [indicating]. Mr. Marble. And what else did you bring ^ Mr. Bell. Why, a few memoranda I thought might be of intei'est to the Iarble, a matter you desired to offer? Mr, Bell, Yes; if the occasion offers, Mr, Marble, I have no objection to that at all. And what does this memoranda you made up relate to? Mr, Bell, The movement of trains and shortage of cars, Mr, Marble, You have a section of the main line? Mr. Bell, Yes, sir; I have the main line from a point just outside of Minneapolis to Barnesville, appro.ximately '200 miles. Mr, Marble. That is not the main line to Duluth ? Mr, Bell, No, sir, Mr. Marble, That has to do with shipments to Minneapolis? Mr, Bell, Yes, sir. Mr, Marble. You make rather Ix^tter time on the eastern division than the people do farther west, do you not? •Mr. Bell. I l)elieve so, but that is from hearsay only. Mr. Marble. That is your information? Mr, Bell, Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. AMiat is the length of this division? Mr. Bell, It is approximateU' 'iOO miles. It extends to Barnes- ville, which is 217 miles from St. Paul. 148 CAB SH0BTA6E. Mr. Marble. That is two divisions, really ? Mr. Bell. Two districts; one division. Mr. Marble. Two train runs cover that? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Now, take the time that a train registers in at your farthest point to the time that they sign in in this city ; what do you think a fair time would be to cover that distance, and that will in- clude what you think fair delay at your farthest division point — a freight train; a dead freight train, not one of your oriental trains? Mr. Bell. About thirty-six hours. Mr. Marble. About thirty-six hours? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you think that is a fair time, and that that should include any reasonable or allowable or necessary delay in getting through division points? Mr. Bell. Yes; under ordinary conditions thirty-six hours would be a reasonable time. Mr. Marble. Now, under such conditions as you had during this crop year, what would be a reasonable time? Mr. Bell. About that period. Mr. Marble. What time were you actually making? Mr. Bell. About that. Mr. Marble. So you consider, on this part of the road which is under your superintendence, that you have done about as well as you would expect to? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How much of that thirty-six hours did you account for getting through the two division points which we allow for there ? Mr. Bell. Prom ten to twelve hours. Mr. Marble. About six hours to a division point? Mr. Bell. Yes. Mr. Marble. Tn what way is that consumed ? Mr. Bell. Switching, making up trains — breaking up and making up trains. Mr. Marble. You count that when a train gets to a division point it will be broken up? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Necessarily? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Most trains are? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do they actually carry out different cars from what they bring in? Mr. Bell. Very often. Mr. Marble. Very often? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you switch out cars that have just come in and put in cars that you have had standing there ? Mr. Bell. Sometimes we would do that in periods of congestion, but ordinarily it is switching trains in station order — that is, getting the set-out loads together, so that you can set them out with the least possible delay on the road. Mr. Marble. But in periods of congestion, if you had freight that had been standing in there, and cai-s were in the train, in order to CAB SHORTAGE. 149 equalize the delay you would cut out the cars in the train and let those held up go forward? Mr. Bell. It is the intention to move traffic in its order. Mr. Marble. Have you had to do that this fall? Mr. Bell. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Not at all? Mr. Bell. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether it has l)een done at other divi- sion points? Mr. Bell. I can not say. Mr. Marble. You have not been informed? Mr. Bell. No, sir. Mr. Marble. When did j'ou last do that? Mr. Bell. Not during my term of office on the division. Mr. Marble. How long is that ? Mr. Bell. Somewhat less than a year. Mr. Marble. That method would be followed "during any time of congestion, would it? Mr. Bell. I think so. Mr. Marble. And that might explain the slowness of the move- ment of cars when trains seem to go reasonably fast ? Mr. Bell. Possibly. Mr. Marble. To what percentage of their capacity do you load your engines? Mr. Bell. At the present time about 50 to 60 {)t»r cent. Mr. Marble. Fifty to GO per cent? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is that light loading? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir ; very. Mr. Marble. Very light? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And why do you load them so lightly ? Mr. Bell. To make time with the trains. Mr. Marble. Trains make better time if loaded lightly than if loaded heavily? Mr. Bell. Sometimes. It depends on the weather conditions. At this time of the year we run our trains lighter than during warm weather. Mr. Marble. Because the engine can not do as much work in very cold weather? Mr. Bell. The efficiency of the locomotive is somewhat reduced in severe weather. Mr. Marble. And if you loaded a locomotive to about 90 per cent now, perhaps it would not go through ? Mr. Bell. Not under all conditions. It depends on the locality and the weather conditions of certain districts. We have some dis- tricts where the wind blows all the time, and we have to reduce our trains. We have other districts where there is no trouble, and then we have districts where there is snow and wind, and of course we hav«} to reduce it. Where there is no trouble we will load the engine nearly to capacity and make just as good time as when it is loaded only to 50 to 60 per cent. Mr. Marble. Have you serious grades to deal with on your divi- sion? 150 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. Bell. Yes; we have what are considered heavy grades — six- tenths of 1 per cent, and in some places eight-tenths of 1 per cent. Mr. Marble. Do you load trains so that the engine starting with the train can carry through this freight ? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not divide the train and make two trips over hills? Mr. Bell. Xo, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not do that at all ? Mr. Bell. We do not make a practice of that, Mr. Marble. It occurs sometimes? Mr. Bell. I do not recall any cases now. Mr. Marble, Have you helper engines that you help trains over the hills with — extra engines? ]Mr. Bell. Xo, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you enough engines. Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are not handicapped for lack of engines? Mr. Bell. Xo, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you enough cars for local business? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir, Mr. Marble, Xo delay in that way ? Mr. Bell. Xo, sir. Mr. Marble. Xo shortage? Mr. Bell. There iias not been any at any time during the fall, any shortage of cars on my division, except for short jjeriods, and those are very infrequent occurrences — much more infrequent than last year or the year before or the year before that, Mr, Marble, On your division you have better service than last year and two years previous? Mr, Bell. I should say so. Mr. Marble. Have you been able to move cars promptly when loaded ? Mr, Bell, Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know of any instances of cars standing a week after being loaded ? Mr. Bell. I do not recall any. Yesterday morning there were no loads on the division that had stood more than forty-eight hours. Mr. Marble. How long ago did you begin to load engines to 50 or 60 per cent of capacity ? Mr. Bell. With the advent of cold weather — perhaps a month. Mr. Marble. Perhaps a month ago. And previous to that how were you loading? Mr. Bell. We have had business loaded to capacity. Mr. Marble. What do you mean by " capacity ? " Mr. Bell. I mean the capacity of the engine. Mr. Marble. Did you load 100 per cent of their capacity or 00 per cent? Mr. Bell. On some districts we run them to capacity. Mr. Marble. That is where you have down grades? Mr. Bell. Where the grades are favorable and where the weather conditions permit. Mr. Marble. Is that capacity furnished to you by the capacity marked on the engine? CAR SHORTAGE. 151 Mr. Bell. The capacity is usually furnished by the mechanical department. Mr. Marble. The master mechanic furnishes that? Mr. Bell. I might say that in explanation of the 50 and 60 per cent now being hauled by the engines, that the business on the divi- sion which I represent is not so great as it was thirty to sixty (hiys ago, when we were hauling, perhaps, a larger percentage of the rating. Mr. Marble. Have you, at any time during the season, made de- lays in the shipment of grain ? Mr. Bell. >iO, sir. Mr. Marble. You have l>een able to forward jiromptly? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Now, if we may have those sheets in the room to ex- amine them we will be very much obliged to you. Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How is the coal supply of the railroad in the district under vour supervision ? Mr. IBell. Not so great as in previous years. Mr. Marble. Have you coal in store ? Mr. Bell. No, sir; we are running, perhaps, with twenty-four to thirty-six hours' supply ahead on the division. Mr. Marbij!. You keep that in bins ? Mr. Bell. No, sir; we keep it in cars. We are unloading almost from the cars to the locomotives at this time. Mr. Marble. ^Miat ? Mr. Bell. We are unloading almost from the cars to the locomo- tives at this time. Mr. Marble. As far as the twenty-four to thirty-six hours are con- cerned, you are using cai*s for storage? Mr. Bell. I do not suppose cars remain under load with coal more than twelve hours at any of our terminals. Mr. Marble. They are unloaded so promptly that it is not prac- ticable to put the coal in bins ? Mr. Bell. You understand that coal is all handled through sheds, but we do not at other times. We have l)een able to carry, periiaps, five days' supply at the shed. At this time it is going directly through the shed to the locomotive, the supply is so short. Mr. Marble. Since last May, what is the most that you have been ahead in your supply of coal at any time? Mr. Bell. At any time since last May? I think not more than four days. Mr. Marble. Not more than four days? You have l)een living pretty close to the supply all the time ? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbi^. That is all. Commissioner Lane. Has there been an unprecedented amount of traffic on your road this year? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir; I think the division has handled more business this year than for many years previous. Commissioner Lane. What is the percentage of increase? Mr. Bell. I should say during the months of July, August, and September, and half of October, it has increased from 75 to 100 per cent in tonnage handled over the division. 152 CAR SHORTAGE. Commissioner Lane. Almost double in those months? Mr. Bell. That represents through business largely. Commissioner Lane. Of what has it consisted? Mr. Bell. Merchandise, lumber, shingles, and machinery. Commissioner Lane. Going which way, chiefly? Mr. Bell. AVestbound principally, although the eastbound business in lumber and shingles has been very heavy. Commissioner Lane. AVhat would be the eastbound freight? Mr. Bell. Lumber and shingles principally. Commissioner Lane. And the westbond? Mr. Bell. Merchandise, machinery, and coal. Commissioner Lane. And on that division you have no shortage of cars? Mr. Bell. Not for any protracted period; no, sir. Of course there are complaints from time to time m isolated cases, but for the most part they are for foreign cars only, for cars to load for for- eign lines, and the difficulty has been in securing those foreign cars. There has been no real shortage of system cars at any time during the fall, and there is not now. Commissioner Lane. A\Tiat are the points between which you con- trol the operation of the road? Mr. Bell. Between, you might say, Minneapolis and Barnesville. The real terminal of the division is outside of Minneapolis, at Coon Creek Junction, and it extends west to Barnesville, and then I run over to Willmar. Commissioner Lane. A total of 217 miles? Mr. Bell. Two hundred and seventeen miles from St. Paul; yes, sir. Mr. Begg. You spoke of a great increase in business over your division. Is not that to some extent due to the fact that you handle business which ordinarily went over another line? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir; business formerly handled over the Willmar and Breckenridge divisions. Mr. Begg. The capacity of engines, as you get it, is furnished to you by the mechanical department, is it not? Mr. Bell. Primarily, yes; but it has been the practice in past years to make tests, actual tests, on the division to determine the haul- ing power of the engines. Mr. Begg. AMien you speak of loading the engine to the full capac- ity you mean loading to the full-rated capacity given you? 'Mr. Bell. Yes, sir, Mr. Begg. That does not mean all the engine can haul? Mr. Bell. No; not by any means. Mr. Begg. From the line west of Barnesville there is a division that is not under your charge? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. Including the Barnesville station? Mr. Bell. The Barnesville station is not under my control ; no, sir. Mr. Begg. What do vou consider a reasonable time to put a train through Barnesville, after it has registered into Barnesville until it is delivered to your division for bringing on east ? Mr. Bell. Mr. Begg, it depends altogether on conditions and which way the business is moving. If the business is largely west CAR SHORTAGE. 153 bound, then east-bound business through Barnesville might be handled in less time. Mr. Begg. "When you spoke of six hours being a reasonable time to go throujjh a terminal Mr. Bell. That is a low fi^ire. Mr. Begg (continuing). \ou counted on everything being favor- able? Mr. Bell. Yes; I counted on everything being favorabU*. Under certain conditions I do not consider that twelve hours' delay at a terminal is unreasonable. Mr. Marble. You mean through a division point — terminal? Mr. Bell. The ends of each district are called terminals. Mr. Marble. Every second district? Mr. Bell. The distance from district point to district point aver- ages about 109 miles. It is about 109 miles from St. Paul to Melrose. Melrose is practically about the same distance from Barnesville, which is next. That is the run of a crew and engine. Mr. Marble. You think, then, in every hundred miles it is fair to have ten to twelve hours' delay lor switcliing? Mr. Bell. I think that is not unreasonable for dead freight. Of course it is much better on high-class freight. On west-bound busi- ness there is time allowed on certain freight at terminals, to change engines, etc., which runs from thirty minutes to an hour and a half. Mr. Begg. Mr. Bell, what is a reasonable time for a freight train to register in at the east end of your division, after it has registered out of Barnesville, after delivery to you? Mr. Bell. I do not think I understand. Mr. Begg. After a train registers out of Barnesville, what do you consider a reasonable time to be consumed in getting over this division and turning the train over to the next division here at Minneapolis? Mr. Bell. A train of dead freight? Mr. Begg. A train of dead freight; yes, sir. Mr. Bell. I think thirty-six hours would be a reasonable time. Mr. Begg. In giving thirty-six hours, then, vou understood Mr. Marble to say that the train had registered out of Barnesville instead of being registered in? Mr. Bell. Perhaps it is not understood that I have no control of the terminal on the west end of my division, and that trains do not enter upon my division until they are started from Barnesville. Mr. Marble. I tried to make my question very plain. I will re- peat what I said ; that after trains registered in at the farthest point under your control, what is a fair time from that moment to the time that the train is registered in at this end? Mr. Bell. If I said thirty-six hours, I misunderstood you, and would add twelve hours, which would make forty-eight hours. Mr. Marble. Making forty -eight hours? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir; that is to say, the running time on each district, and twelve hours delay at each terminal. Mr. ALvrble. Twelve hours at each terminal ? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir; there you have two terminals of twelve hours each, and two runs of twelve hours, which would make a total of forty-eight hours. Mr. AIarble. Twenty-four hours on the road and twenty-four hours in the terminals? 154 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. That you consider a reasonable time for a freight train passing over 217 miles and through two terminal points ? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir ; for dead freight. Commissioner Lane. For dead freight? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. And if the train should pass another 100 miles over the track and pass through one additional terminal, how much should it consume in addition to the forty-eight hours? Mr. Bell. I should say about twenty-four hours more. Commissioner Lane. Twenty-four hours more? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Then it would be three full days to pass a distance of 300 miles and pass through three terminals. Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know how fast canal boats travel? Mr. Bell. No; I have had no experience with canal boats. Mr. Marble. Do you know how fast a horse can walk? Mr. Bell. I know' how fast a man can walk. Mr. Marble. He can walk as fast as you think trains should go, can he not? Mr. Bell. Approximately. Mr. Begg. In connection with the grain traffic, is there an inspec- tion point on your division ? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. •Mr. Begg. At Melrose ? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. What delays are incident to this necessary inspection? Mr. Bell. If a car of ^rain arrives at Melrose, say, at 5 p. m., it can not be inspected until daylight the next morning. Mr. Begg. How long does the inspection ordinarily provide, to inspect a train of grain? Mr. Bell. Three or four hours, or four or five hours. It depends altogether on the man. Some men inspect a train in half the time. They have more experience. Mr. Marble. In this estimate you don't include time for inspection in estimated cases? Mr. Bell. I did not add anything additional on that account. Mr. Marble. You have used the term " dead freight." I wish you would state what is meant by that. Mr. Bell. The most common commodities are coal, grain, and lumber. Mr. Marble. Any other sorts of commodities that you handle as dead freight? Mr. Bell. Not in large quantities. Mr. Marble. Coal, grain, and lumber? Mr. Bell. Those are the principal commodities. Mr. Marble. Hay ? Mr. Bell. Hay is dead freight. Mr. Marble. Potatoes? Mr. Bell. No; they are considered perishable and a higher class freight. Mr. Marble. That is all. CAR SHORTAGE. 155 Commissioner Lane. What is the distance from (irand Forks to Duluth? Mr. Beog. About 300 miles. Commissioner IjAxe. That is over the Great Northern? Mr. Begg. Yes, sir. Commissioner I^ane. How many division jwints? Mr. Begg. After leaving (irand Forks the next division point is Brookston; then Cass Lake, and then comes Superior. Commissioner Lane. Then there are three terminals altogether? Mr. Begg. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. A train starts from Grand Forks, and in passing through three terminals and being inspected — a train of grain — what time should it take, ordinarilv, to make that trip of 300 miles? Mr. Bell. I am not familiar with the conditions of that country. I do not feel qualified to say. Commissioner Lane. You have passed over that road ? Mr. Bell. I have ridden over it ; yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Do you know how far it differs from your road? Mr. Bell. Only in a general way. I know that the weather con- ditions there are much more severe than on the division I am on now. Commissioner Lane. The weather conditions in October differed seriously ? Mr. Bell. I think not in October; but in the winter months. Commissioner Lane. Well, take it in Octol)er. ^\'Tiat time should such a train take in passing from Grand Forks to Duluth? Mr. Bell. I should say from three to four days. Commissioner Lane. Including inspection? Mr. Bell. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. That is all. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The witness was excused.) L. W. BowEN, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified n • follows : Mr. Marble. Your name is L. W. Bowen? Mr. Bowen. L. W. Bowen. Mr. Marble. And you reside at AVillmar? Mr. Bowen. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is your business? Mr. Bowen. Superintendent. Mr. Marble. For what road ? Mr. Bowen. Great Northern. Mr. Marble. And how much road is under your charge? Mr. Bowen. Three hundred and ninety-eight miles. Mr. Marble. That is not in one stretch, is it? Mr. Bowen. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Tell us between what points. Mr. Bowen. From just outside of Minneapolis — from Wayzatn — to Breckonridge: that is on the main line. Mr. Marble. Wayzata to Breckenridge is how far? Mr. Bowen. Practically 200 miles. 156 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. The other 198 miles — where do you make those? Mr. BowEN. We have 160 miles on what we call the Watertown branch, from Huron to Benson, Minn., or Benson to Huron. Mr. Marble. And you say it is 160 miles? Then, you have some more ? Mr. Boa\t:n. We have a line from Morris to Browns Valley, Minn. Mr. Marble. How long is that ? Mr. Bo wen. Forty -eight miles. Mr. Marble. Is that all? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you handle any of the through business to Duluth ? Mr. Bo WEN. No, sir. Mr. Marble. It does not reach you? Mr. Bo WEN. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Of the through business, what traffic do you get? Mr. BowEN. I say to Duluth, the through business perhaps of that grain — some of it touches on the line going to Duluth — passes Will- mar. Mr. Marble. But it does not come to you from the far end of your division ? Mr. BowEN. Yes; some if it might, going to Duluth, on the west end. Mr. Marble. So that point where grain branches off to Duluth, is how far? Mr. Bowen. I do not know the farthest distance that we can get. I think it would be Huron or Breckenridge. Mr. Marble. Do you haul grain from Huron to Duluth ? Do you carry any of that traffic? Mr. Bo WEN. I do not know that we have had any ; no, sir. Mr. Marble. Passing over the line from Wayzata to Breckenridge : take a train loaded with dead freight. From the time it registers into your charge at Wayzata to the time it registers in at Brecken- ridge, what do you consider a reasonable time? Mr. BowEN. That would depend upon the conditions and the kind of freight we were handling. Mr. Marble. I said a dead freight train. Is there a distinction in that? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir; there would be, because we do not have over our division a dead freight train west as a usual thing. Mr. Marble. Do you have it east? Mr. BowEN. We have it east. Mr. Marble. I will reverse it, then, and turn the question around and say from Breckenridge to Wayzata ? Mr. BowEN. I would say about sixty hours. Mr. Marble. How many division points would that pass through ? Mr. BowEN. Pass through one. Mr. Marble. Only one division. I want you to include the time at Breckenridge — the time it registers in at Breckenridge. Mr. BowEN. I do not know what length of time it would take to make up a train at Breckenridge. Perhaps it would take ten hours. Mr. Marble. Would you consider that reasonable? Mr. BowEN. I would ; yes, sir ; under normal conditions. If it were in the winter I would not. CAB SHORTAGE. 157 Mr. Marble. In the winter I expect you would say it ought to take a longer time? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. In October — such weather as you had in October — you consider ten hours a fair time ? Mr. Bowen. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have ten hours for Breckenridge, and your divi- sion point nearest beyond that is what ? Mr. Bowen. AVillmar. Mr. Marble. How much is the running time to Willmar ? Mr. Bowen. About twelve or fourteen hours. Mr. Marble. How many miles? Mr. Bowen. One hundred and twelve. Mr. Marble. Twelve to fourteen hours for 112 miles. How long would vou think that a train of dead freight should lie at Willmar? Mr. feowEN. That would depend upon the time it reached there. We have a grain inspection. Mr. Marble. Omitting the grain inspection, considering the total distance? Mr. Bowen. If the yard were perfectly clear and you had power there to handle it, it would l>e in there perhaps five or six hours. That would be a quick movement. Mr. Marble. Now, say, five or six hours at one division point, and how much at the other? Mr. Bowen. You did not mention a train load of ha}'. That would not have to be switched. Mr. Marble. If it comes in as a solid train load that don't need switching, and vou consider five or six hours that train needs without being switched f Mr. Bowen. A traip load of hay perhaps five hours; the conductor would have to get in, check- the car numbers, as well as the manifest, etc. Mr. Marble. And if it were grain, how long would it be? Mr. Bowen. That would have to b^ inspected. Mr. Marble. How long would it be in tnese vards, then, inspection and all? Mr. Bowen. I presume a train load of grain, if it reached there in the evening, would be in the yard anywhere from — at this time of the year — anywhere from eighteen hours. Mr. Marble. I am talking about October. Mr. Bowen. October — fifteen hours, probably. Mr. Marble. And you count how much of that time for in.spec- tion ? Mr. Bowen. It would lay there all night before it was inspected, if it reached there in the evening. Mr. Marble. Perhaps half of the time for inspection? Mr. Bowen. Yes; more than half. Mr. Marble. And the running time to Wayzata would be how long? Mr. Bowen. That would probably be ten or twelve hours from Willmar to Wayzata. Air. Marble. You say forty-five hours? I do not want to mislead you on this question. Did you say forty-five hours from the time 158 CAR SHORTAGE. the grain registered in at Breckenridge until it registered in at Wayzata ? Mr, Bo WEN. Oh, no; I should say seventy. Mr. Marble. Do you think that is entirely reasonable and prac- tical ? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you actually accomplished such results this fall? Mr. Bowen. Yes. Mr. Marble. Have you plenty of fuel? Mr. Bowen. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are not short of fuel ? Mr. Bowen. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Not on any road under your charge ? Mr. Bowen. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you short of cars for local business? Mr. Bowen. No, sir ; not to speak of. Mr. Marble. Practically not at all ? Mr. Bowen. Practically not at all. Mr. Marble. How heavily do you load your engines? Mr. Bowen. Well, our practice — we have been loading 70 per cent of what the engines are rated at. Mr. Marble. Seventy per cent ? How long have you been handling them at 70 per cent ? Mr. Bowen. Well, practically all the fall. Mr. Marble. The testimony j^esterday, if I remember it rightly, was that engines are going into Duluth and Superior loaded to 85 or 90 per cent. Mr. Bowen. I do not know what they are doing at Duluth. Mr. Marble. Take the division Avest of that.^ Mr. Bowen. I do not know what they are doing. Mr. Marble. You have instructions issued to load to 70 per cent? Mr. Bowen. We have not any such instructions. Mr. Marble. That is your practice ? Mr. Bowen. Yes, sir ; and we have perhaps one of the easiest divi- sfons on the system to get trains over. We have to work with a grade of one-tenth of 1 per cent. Mr. Marble. You load your engines to 70 per cent only ? Mr. Bowen. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Would you think it wise to load them heavier? Mr. Bowen. It might be for some reasons, but for handling busi- ness promptly, I do not think it is. Mr. Marble. You can handle business more promptly by loading about 70 per cent? Mr. Bowen. In some cases; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. It is now done ? Mr. Bowen. At this time of the year ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Take it through October. Mr. Bowen. In the fall months when there is frost we can handle 70 per cent much better than we can with a full tonnage rating of the engine. In the summer time when it is dry and good rail, our engines can handle what they are rated at and make the same tiine. Mr. Marbte. How do you load the engines in the summer time when the rails are dry? CAR SHORTAGE. 159 Mr. BowEN. We give them 100 per cent of the rating. Mr. Marble. I ask how long you have been loading engines 70 per cent. How long did you say? Mr. BowEN. Perhaps since the freezing weather set in. I could not tell you offhand just when that was. Mr. Marble. And you load them 100 per cent when the rails are dry? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Commisisoner Lane. Is that usual, each winter? Mr. BowEN. Sir? Commissioner Lane. Each winter do you have an order to change from 100 to 70 per cent ? Mr. BowEN. Sometimes we can not handle more than from 40 to 50, perhaps. The weather conditions govern it. Commissioner Lane. You are the judge of those conditions? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. If you overloaded an engine, what would be the result ? Mr. BowEN. Well, there are times when that engine will take beyond her rated capacity and there are other times when you have to double or reduce. . Mr. Marble. If vou overloaded an engine, what would rasult to the time that you would make over the division ? Mr. BowEN. You overloaded an engine so she could not start? Mr. Marble. If you overloaded an engine enough so it could start but slowly, on account of that heavier load, then would the train be slow ? '.' Mr. Bov/EN. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Would the liability to accidents be greater? Mr. BowEN. No, sir, Mr. Marble. Would the train require more headway if going against a passenger train? Mr. Bowen. More headway — I do not catch your meaning. Mr. Marble. I mean to say, with a heavy train coming from Min- !)oapolis and a passenger tram going to Minneapolis, would you have to allow that heavy train more headway as against the passenger train; would it have to have more time to be sure of making the passing point? Mr. Bowen. That would be determined In' the engineer or con- ductor in charge of the train. They would know after getting the train started just what point they could make. Mr. Marble. And if the trains were slow you could not run so close as if they were making time. Does that cause delays on each division ? Mr. Bowen. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Because you load to make the time? Mr. Bowen. Yes, sir. Mr. Makbi-e. When vou sav 100 per cent, you mean 100 per cent of wliat ? Mr. Bowen. Wliat the ent think are just. Mr. Marble. There are individual complaints of that kind to which you take exceptions ? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Where a line of elevators is filled with grain and if they have deposited grain beside the track in open bins and have made demand for from twenty to thirty days for cars and have not been able to get tliem, would you consicier a complaint on such facts to be just? Mr. Bowen. It might be from one point of view, and from another it might not be. Mr. Marbi£. What would be a valid excuse for a railroad to not furnish cars in such a case? Mr. Bowen. I think the expansion of the country and the increase in business would be a valid excuse for such a thing. Mr. Marble. Why should it be that in your country there is no shortage of cars — neither delay nor shortage of cars — when in all these districts from Duluth out througli North Dakota there is a manifest shortage of cars so far as the shippers are concvrned, be- cause they are unable to get them ? Mr. Bowen. We make our own empties, as I stated before, and as a rule, taking all of our little towns along will have carloads set out from day to day enough to supply their wants. Mr. Marble. You think it may arise from a difference in man- agement ? Mr. Bowen. No; I do not think it can. Mr. Marble. I do not want you to criticise your fellows in rail- road work, but I am anxious to know just what the reason is. Mr. liowEX. I do not think that is it. I do not think the dilference in management does it, but the fact that we are fortunate in having carloads come in to unload and supply the elevators with. That is our good fortune, whereas these little western towns ivally don't get many carloads, and for their supply have to depend upon the quantity furnished them. Mr. Marble. Where should those empties come from? Mr. Bowen. Well, they would come from the shippers. The peo- ple who load the cars and release them. Mr. Marble. Might it not Im that there was a pi-eference in freight and for certain commodities which carry high rates there is abso- lutely no lack of cars, but on certain other conunodities. which carrj' a low rate there is a deficit as to the car supply at the present time. Mr. Bowen. No; I do not think so. I think our couunodity — grain — is one of the best commodities we can handle. Mr. Marble. Undoubtedly; but it is a staple, and grain you are sure to handle, are you not, eventually!' If is not something that anylKKly else can take away from you. Air. Bowen. Oh, yes; others can take it away from us. Mr. Makblk. CVrtainly not at nonconi|H*ting points. Mr. HowKx. I do not know as to noncomi)eting jKiints, but our whole line is practically competitive. 164 GAR SH0BTA6E. Mr. Marble. You have a good many places where it would not be so? Mr. Bo WEN. Oh, no. Mr. Marbi^. You have not any explanation to give us as to con- ditions that prevail in the North, as distinct from conditions that prevail in the South ? Mr. BowEN. No, sir. Mr, Marbi^. That is all. Oh, yes; just one question. Do you understand that it is the policy of the road at all that a town shall have as many cars to load out as it ships in, so that the road will haul fewer cars both ways ? Mr. BowEN. I think it is the policy of any company or firm to load a wagon or car, whichever it may be, at the point unloaded, if they can, without making an empty car haul. Mr. Marble. Exactly. And if a town does not ship in as many cars as it ships out, it will have to suffer, because they have no empties to load and ship out. Mr. BowEN. I think they would have cause of complaint if they were discriminated against. Mr. Marble. There has been a good deal of construction out west this year? Mr. BowEN. I think so; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That involves the shipment of railroad equipment out, does it not? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Would not that account for a good many empties out there? Mr. BowEN. Well, a great deal of the material shipped for the con- struction of the road is on flat cars and gondolas, which, of course, could not handle grain. Mr. Marble, Don't they, in building up toward the Pacific coast, in, getting new machinery, do they or do they not ship in about as much freight from the East as they have to ship out, as a usual case? Mr. Bo WEN. No; I do not think so. Mr. Marble. You think a new country does not ship in as much freight as the freight that they have to ship out, as compared with an old country? Mr. Bowt:n. No; because a new country has much more grain to handle, while generally with us the farmers have gone into diversified farming, and the grain is not handled there that used to be. Mr. Marble. That might explain it. Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. It is used as feed in your country, the grain and farm products, and fed to cattle and horses and live stock, and farmers ship them out ? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. And that condenses the carloads? Mr. BowEN. Yes, sir. And distributes it over a different area, and different shipments. Commissioner Lane. The same effect could be brought about — the effect that is brought about by transfer could be very well brought about by quicker movement of cars on the part of the railroad carry- ing to point of destination and bringing them hjick. Mr. BowEN. Why, I do not believe that I understand you. CAB SHOBTAOE. 165 Commissioner Lane. It takes, we will sav, fifteen or twenty days to take a train load of wheat from Grand F'orks to Dulnth — per- haps a little less than that on the average. There is a great demand for cars in North Dakota. Is not it practicable to take these trains from Grand Forks to Duluth faster than the time they are now car- ried and bring back the empties for the grain in North Dakota, which demands them, and so have a sufficient supply of cars for the people in Dakota i Mr. BuwBN. I think that is the way tlie business is handled up there. Commissioner I^ne. That is the way it ought to be handled. Mr. HowEN. I think tliat is the way it is handled for whatever conmiodities may be going west out of Duluth. It would not be policy to take an empty out when you could send it back loaded. It costs just as much and takes as long to handle an empty car as a loaded car. Commissioner Lane. So far as the North Dakota products are concerned, if the car went through and if you would take the car that was loaded with grain going eastward and stop it at Duluth, and take on coal, and then send it back beyond North Dakota — took it to a farther western point, as an emergency, through the Dakotas, they might not be available for the purposes of Dakota? Mr. BowEN. No; I would not Commissioner Lane. ^Vhat I am getting at is this: If it is not pos- sible by expediting trains and making them move faster to make cars available for two loads instead of one? Mr. BowEN. That brings out the point that if you take trains in order to move fast — we will say cut them down to a greater extent than what we have, instead of running one train run two trains in each direction, on account of the increased number of trains, it would congest the ordinary lines and you could not get them over the road to advantage. Commissioner Lane. How many cars do you put in a train ordi- narily ? Mr. BowEN. Our trains will average about 40 cars. Conmiissioner Lane. Loaded cars? Mr. BowEN. On my division ; yes, sir. Conmiissioner Lane. At what rate do they generally haul 40 cars to the train ? Mr. BowEN. We have trains that are scheduled a little hotter than 16 miles an hour, including stops and all, and with that kind of a train that would be about 1,500 tons. Commissioner Lane. That is not your average — that is high speed ? Mr. BowEN. A high speed train. Commissioner Lane. >Miat is the ordinair speed? Mr. BowEN. Our local trains are scheduled about 9 miles an hour. We figure, on our trains, to handle tonnage and make 10 miles an hour. Commissioner Lane. You hold cars until you can make up a train of about 45 cars? Mr. BowEN. We do not have to hold them. Commissioner Lane. You do not have to hold them? Mr. Bowen. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. What is your practice? 166 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Bo\vEN. Everything is turned over to us from connecting divi- sions almost in solid trains. Commissioner Lane. And you don't have to break them up? Mr. BowEN. Yes; we have to break them up and set them in and maJ^e them up in station order. Commissioner Lane. When you remake a train, you put in about the same nimiber of cars as came in ? Mr. Bo WEN. Yes; the cars are just the same all over the line. Commissioner Lane. What is the policy of your division as to the movement of cars of freight that originate on your division? Do you let cars stand for a week or ten days until you can make up a train? Mr. BowEN. No, sir; our local trains all start out of terminals light enough to pick up the loads every day. Our through trains don't stop to pick them up at intermediate points, except in cases of damage to a car. Commissioner Lane. You have no idea, of course, as to the number of cars set out as damaged ? Mr. BowEN. Oh, no ; but the percentage is very small. Connnissioner Lane. The percentage is very small on your division ? Mr. Bo WEN. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. That is all. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The witness was excused.) Harley S. Grover, called as a witness and being duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Grover, where do you reside? Mr. Grover. Lisbon, N. Dak. Mr. Marble. AMiere is Lisbon? Mr. Grover. Fifty-six miles southwest of Fargo, on the Fargo Southwestern, a branch of the Northern Pacific. Mr. Marble. Is that a grain-marketing point? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How many elevators have you ? Mr. Grover. Five elevators and a flouring mill. Mr. Marble. Have your elevators been supplied with cars this year? Mr. Grover. No, sir; not sufficiently. Mr. Marble. Have any of them been filled ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Ml*. Marble. Any grain on the ground? Mr. Grover. No grain on the ground. Mr. Marble. Have they been able to buy all season ? Mr. Grover. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Have all of them been closed at any time? Mr. Grover. There has been a few days that there was a few eleva- tors that were not able to take any grain. As often as thev could secure a car, then they take in the amount of grain they loaded out. Mr. Marble. Do the farmers ship from your station without sell- ing to the elevator? Mr. Grover. They would if they could get cars. They have not been able to get cars. The fact is we have a farmers' loading plat- CAB SHORTAGE. 167 form, but farmers have not been able to get one car during the whole reason. Mr. Marble. Have they tried to? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have they sold more grain to the elevators than they would have done if they could get cars? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. They have been able to sell to the elevators all that they chose? Mr. Grover. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Some of the time they could not take their grain ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir; the farmers would find out — they nave rural deliveries, and thev would find out when the elevators could take tlie grain. Had the elevators been able to take in the grain or had they been able to secure cars, their shipments would have been larger. Mr. Marble. Have the farmers been able to sell more grain than they have been able to ship? Mr. Grover., Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know the effect upon the market — upon the price ? Mr. Grover. Ransom County raises more durum wheat than any county in the State, and during the month of November the Duluth price — I think nearly all the month — was 74 cents, while the Decem- oer price was 64 cents. So that the elevators there were unable to secure cars, and they had to purchase the wheat on Decemlier options all through the month of November. Mr. Marble. The Commission will remember, in the grain investi- fation we had that testimony from the elevator men. They were uying durum on a very wide margin, because they could not fairly hope to get it to market in November. Mr. Grover. That made & difference of about 9 cents a bushel. Mr. Marble. Have you had complaint of the length of. time cars were in transit? Mr. (i rover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble, ^^'bat was that complaint? Mr. (irover. The Lisbon Elevator Company loaded car No. .5603 on October 13, for Duluth, and it was unloaded on November 2G, and the other elevators also informed me that they had the same trouble. Commissioner Lane. Is that an exceptional case? Mr. Grover. This one— yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. What is the ordinary time? Mr. Grover. Last year we could get returns easily in ten days, but this year it has run from twenty to thirty days. Commissioner Lane. Does that mean it takes cars twenty to thirty days to get to Duluth and be unloaded ? Mr. Grover. There seems to be considerable time elapse between the time the car arrives at Duluth and is inspected and the time it is unloaded. Commissioner Lane. It is not inspected in Duluth, is it? Mr. Grover. Nearly all of it. I undei-stand of late — I have a letter here now — one car was inspected at Staples. This is something new to me. I do not know the reason why. 168 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Have you had experience with cars being loaded and not being hauled out promptly ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Tell us of that. Mr. Grover. I came from Buttzville, a station about 8 miles from Lisbon, last evening, and it seems that on December 8 there were 5 empty cars put in on the siding. They were simply nut in, I sup- pose, to get out of the way; and the elevator — the Great Western elevator agent — noticed the cars. He hired a farmer, with his team, to haul the cars to his elevator. He loaded the 5 cars on the 8th day of December, and yesterday as I passed through there the 5 cars were standing, loaded, on the side track. Mr. Marble. Have they been billed, do you know — ^billed out? Mr. Grover. I did not ask the agent. I think they were, no doubt, because there is an agent at that point. Mr. Marble. Any other instances ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir; several instances of where the cars were loaded and left on the track three or four days before being taken out. Mr. Marble. You have got a memorandum here, " No freight in Lisbon until Monday, the 10th, then only two cars of coal." Is that correct ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. No freight at all? Mr. Grover. No, sir. Mr. Marble. What is the trouble? Mr. Grover. Heavy snow. We have in that locality about 1^ to 2 feet of snow, and I think the freight was stalled. Heretofore I have noticed that the engines have always had the small snowplow on, and this winter they have not been put on their engines; and my attention was called, while taking the train last evening, to the fact that the large cars — the furniture cars — they are large cars, and they are about a foot and a half wider than the engine, and also they are low, so that an engine without a pilot snowplow can not pull through a small amount of snow. It will stall them, because the engine will pass over the drift and the cars will catch hold of the drift and simply stop; and this small train got stalled in that maimer, and finally, after about two days' work, they pulled out two cars and took them into Lisbon, being the first two we have received — two cars received Monday being the only two that have arrived since the Monday preceding. Mr. Marble. It being your idea that if the engines were equipped as they usually are that would not have occurred? Mr. Grover. Yes. Mr. Marble. Have you investigated the condition of the engines? Mr. Grover. I have heard comment on it several times and have talked with railroad employees ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you talked with engineers and firemen — ^men acquainted with the engines? Mr. Grover. No, sir. Mr. Marble. What railroad employees ? Mr. Grover. Employees at Lisbon. Mr. Marble. Their observation being that the engines were in bad order? CAB SHORTAGE. 169 Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You did not talk with the engine men I Mr. Grover. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Your mill has been shut down there, hasn't it? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How long? Mr. Grover. The mill has shut down once or twice for a short time, but it just — I think, Saturday night — they closed down for an indefinite time. The mill has been running night and day. They closed down on account of the inability to secure coal, and also on account of their inability to secure cars to ship the flour, their store- houses being full at the present time. Mr. Marble. How much grain is in store in your town — do you know? Mr. Groves. About 220,000 bushels, which is the capacity of the five elevators and the mill. Mr. Marble. Just about full ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr, Marble. Do you know how much grain there is in the coun- try — what percentage of the crop ? Mr. Grover. Mr. Weiser — I replied to Mr. Weiser's postal card that he sent out, and my estimate was that there was 50 per cent in the farmers' hands, and 10 per cent in the elevator hands, and 40 per cent had been shipped out; and, in talking with othor parlies, they think my estimate was not high enough. They think GO per cent of the grain in Ransom County is in the farmers' hands. JSlr. Marble. And the elevators told you the amount of grain the elevators have ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir; one agent stated that he believed he had re- fused 20,000 bushels of grain ; another one 10,000 bushels, on account of not being able to store it. Mr. Marble. Are you acquainted with the coal situation in your town i Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is that — what has it been recently ? Ml. Grover. I do not know that there lias been any suffering, but I do know that there has been no coal for sale in Lisbon since Monday a week ago up until yesterday, and then two cars arrived. An engine came in with them. They dia not have the billing of the cars. One dealer discovered that one car belonged to him by the car number and immediately opened the car, and farmers' teams lined up. I saw with my own eyes teams lined up waiting to get coal, and by night the car was empty. Mr. Marble. Have you talked with your coal men or investigated the length of time coal has been in transit ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir ; we received a statement from all of our coal dealers. Mr. Marble. Is it here? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir ; I have mislaid the statement Mr. M^vRBLE. First, from whom does that statement come? Mr. Grover. M. O. Colton, a fuel dealer. Mr. Marble. Was it made for the purpose of this investigation? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr, Marble. And given to j'ou to bring here? 170 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. G ROVER. Yes, sir; at my request Mr. Marble. What is that statement? Mr. Grover. He claims to have received 19 cars of fuel since Sep- tember 1. He has cars shipped by M. A. Hanna & Co., St. Paul, December 3 — shipped from Superior, but not received. One car was shipped on the 4th and 1 on the 6th. He has orders in for 9 cars, be- sides 2 cars of wood shipped from Northome the 6th and 8th of December, and 1 car from Cromwell, Minn., on the 3d of December, and not received. Mr. Marble. That statement was made out when? Mr. Grovbr. On the 15th of December. Mr. Marble. Have you investigated the condition at the banks in your town? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir; I have just — it is simply the bank I am interested in, the State Bank of Lisbon, of which I am cashier. Our loans have increased $35,000 since September 1. On September 1 our loans were $285,000, and to-day they are $320,000. Mr. Marble. How about j'our deposits? Are they increasing? Mr. Grover. Deposits have decreased in the past sixty days. They increased during the month of September, but have decreased during the months of October, November, and December. Commissioner Harlan. How does that compare with last year? Mr. Grotir. Just the oppasite. As a rule, our deposits increase as soon as the grain conmiences to move, and our loans decrease. I have been connected with the bank I am in for the past twenty years, and this has not occurred before. The loans have always decreased during the fall and deposits increased heretofore. Mr. Marble. You have here a statement from Elliott station ; that is correct, is it? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And I will read it as a part of your testimony : Elliott station. 8 miles west of Lisbon. Agent Andrews, of Andrews &. Gage. Elliott, informs me that he secured in November 2 cars for grain and 2 cars so far in December. Has a bin of hot flax, and gave a rush order eight or nine days ago, and can not get cars to ship. Has orders in for 5 cars of fuel ; 1 car of coal shipped on November 28 and car of wood on the r»th not yet received. No fuel in the town and several farmers in to- cars for urain at Lisbon, and for flour we liave ni>t !md enough to keep us koIuk- We had to l)uild a new ware- house that h<»hls 14 <'arloads of flour, and that Is full and all the room we have at the mill. If we had not built this warehouse we would have had to stop the mill six wjH'ks ago. Up to the present time we have had to close our mill down twice for the want of coal, and to-day. the l.'»th of December, we have clost»d for good, as we are out of c-oal and nothing to k(H>p the boiler from freezing up. And that with a coal contract for 5.0(X) ttais with the M. A. Hanna Coal Com- pany, of St Paul, and they tell us they have plenty (»f i-oal, but can't get the cars to ship out in. We hijve Imd the shipping dirtn-tions on a car of coal since the 10th of December and the car hais not rea<-li«Hl us to-n to Duluth Is. On the l.'Uh of Octol)er we ship|>ed Soo ear No. U'2SS from here to Duluth and this car arrivwi at Duiuth on the -7th of Noveml)er. On OctolM»r 27 we shipi>ed a <-ar, No. :W73^^. and this car arrivwl here on the 27th of NovemlH>r. This is Just a few of the cases where the cars have b<»en so long on the road. Now, all macaroni wheat after the 10th of NovendKT in Duluth was from 70 to 73 tvnts jxt bushel for all that arrived in Duluth in November. On account of not being able to get cars to ship the wheat out In we c4 cents, a dlfferencv of to 5) cents loss to the elevator and the farmer i>er bushel. More to the farmers, as the elevators lM)ught most of the grain on the Dtn-ember basis, as they knew they eouhl not depend on the cars to ship out in. South Ransom County raises alM)ut r),00O.tH>il bushels of Durum ; the lo.>, liiOd. Cars loaded: 1905, from Septeml)er 1 to De<'enil>er I.'*. t»7 ; 1000, from Septem- ber 1 to I>eceml)er 15. 40. Have had 1 car so far this month (1 car December 3). Elevator has been full since Septeml>er 1.5. ('()uld do no business except when I could get a car and that would l)e while filling a car, which took froni three hours to one day. Have l)eeii asking for cars all the time. Railroad company has l»een very slack alnmt taking out cars when loaded. Many of them stand on the track here from two or thrt* days to two or three wwks be- fore l>eing taken out. Most of the carloads coming into Lisbon have Ix'en mi- loaded i>romptly, but in some ca.ses it would l»e two or three days liefore the empty car would he placed so it could be loaded. All cars have been loaded promptly when placed. (The above wa.s marked " Exhibit No. 4 " to Mr. Grover's testi- mony, and is fiUnl herewith). Mr. Marble. Here are two letters to Mr. W. Rawson, of Iiisl)on, N. Dak. The letters are as follows : McCabthv Hkothebs Compant, Duluth, Minn., \ovemher 2S, 1906. W. R>W80N, LUbwt, y. Dak. Deab Sir: The railroad companies have been giving miserable service this fall, and conditions in the yards at the heads of the lakes seem to be worse 172 CAB SHORTAGE. than almost any other place. Cars Inspected over a month ago have not yet reached the elevators to which they were ordered. Your ear 325C was inspected on the 7th and ordered to the elevator. The railroad company, however, has not yet got it there. We have made numerous kicks and written to them, but so far without effect. We are doing all we can, but it seems impossible to make any kick tell with the railroad this year. Yours, truly, McCarthy Bbos. Co., J. S. McCabthy, Vice-President. McCabthy Brothers Company, Grain Merchants, Duluth, Minn., November 26, 1906. W. Raw SON, Lisbon, N. Dak. Dear Sir: Inclosed herewith we send you memo, of the grade and dockage of your car durum 33433. This car was sampled for inspection at Staples. The railroad company have been giving miserable service this year, and we hope they will get it to the elevator in time to be unloaded this month. We were unable to sell it at the November price without guaranteeing that the car would be unloaded this month, and under the circumstances it would be unsafe to do this. The only thing to do was to send it to the elevator with instructions to be unloaded as quickly as possible, and as soon as it is unloaded we will sell at the best possible price for you, which we hope will be November price. Yours, truly, McCarthy Brothers Co., J. S. McCarthy, Vice-President. The John Miller Company, Grain Commission, Duluth, Minn., December 1. 1906. Mr. W. Rawson, Lisbon, N. Dale. Dear Sir : We have your favor of the 30th. If you can send us affidavit that you loaded in the car more tlian was weighed in here we can get the railroad to pay for it. We have not yet been able to learn what happened to the car. it came in in the original car and was inspected, but between that point and the elevator the car was evidently wrecked and the grain was ti*ansferred into another car, and there was undoubtedly some loss in the transfer. We have never seen such work as we have had in the switching of cars this fall. We have yet cars out as far back as October 15 that have not been sent to the ele- vators, although we have gone so far as to take the matter up with the general office at St. Paul. If we can have something on which to base a claim we do not see how they can make any excuse for not allowing it Very truly, yours. The John Miller Co., Per WiLLARD. These are letters received by Mr. Rawson, from commission houses in the city of Duluth, are they ? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. All from Duluth? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And are signed by the commission houses? Mr. Grover. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I think that is all. Mr. BuNN. Just one question. You spoke about some engines that were without a snow plow. It might be for aught you know that those engines have just been taken off of construction trains of the railroad company, to help this situation, might it not ? Mr. Grover. It seemed to be on regular trains. Possibly they had been taken off the construction trains. OAB SHORTAGE. 173 Mr. BuNN. Might have been taken off the construction trains in order to help the people of North Dakota I Mr. GwivER. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Some extra trains? Mr. GRinER. No; regular trains. Mr. Marble. It might be true. That is alL Earnest Billings, called as a witness and being duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. You reside at Lisbon, N. Dak.? Mr. Billings. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbi^. You are a farmer? Mr. Billings. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And are you interested in the Farmers' Elevator Company at Lisbon? Mr. Billings. I have got a few shares in it. Mr. Marble. Are you an officer in that company ? Mr. Billings. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What office? Mr. Billings. One of the directors. Mr. Marbjj:. You have heard the te.stimony of the gentleman who was just on the stand. Is that substantially correct as to conditions in your town? Mr. Billings. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is there anything you can add to that in your expe- rience? Mr. Billings. I do not know as I can add very much. I have a few statements that perhaps he did not give. Mr. Marble. What are those? Mr. BiLiNGS. Those are the conditions of farmers — concerning the Farmers' Elevator. Mr. Marble. And what is that? Mr. Billings. On account of the cars not being furnished as we ordered them, and not having as many as we needed, really. In the month of September we had more cars than later on. In October we had a few less cars. In December we only had three cars. Mr. Marble. That was curtailing your business? Mr. Billings. It was, to perhaps 40,000 bushels for the season. Mr. Marble. You mean there was 40,000 bushels you would have bought, but could not? Mr. Billings. Yes. Mr. Marbi^. And you also agree that that lowered the price to the farmer ? Mr. Billings. Why, it certainly did. We could not get rid of the wheat. We could not ship it, and we had to pay the December market. Mr. Marble. Paid less? Mr. Billings. Yas, sir. Mr. Marble. Six to 9 cents less on durum? Mr. Billings. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How much wheat do you raise? Mr. Billings. I, myself, had about 15.000 bushels. Mr. Marble. Have you sold that wheat? Mr. Billings. I have not. 174 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Have you tried to ship it? Mr. Billings. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Could you get cars? Mr. Billings. No, sir; I have several times asked for cars and have not been able to get one. Mr. Marble. All the cars were given to the elevators? Mr. Billings. Yes, sir; practically all. I do not know of one car being shipped by a farmer. There was an empty in, but I do not be- lieve the farmer got his car. Mr. Marble. So far as you know, they were divided equally among the elevators? Mr. Billings. YeSj sir; we could have used more cars than some of the elevators. We did not get any more than the rest of them. Mr. Marble. You have some other statement you wish to make? Mr. Billings. Here is a statement from the agent — from the man- ager of the Farmers' Elevators. These are the numbers of the cars as thej' came in. This is a statement, and possibly, if you would read this, it would help me out a good deal. I could hardly see the writing good enough. Mr. Marble. This is a statement to the board of directors of the Farmers' Elevator Company giving this condition substantially as testified to: Lisbon, N. Dak., December 14, 1906. To the Board of Directors, Fanners^ Elevator and Mercantile Company, Lisbon, y. Dak. Gentlemen : In compliance with your request, I herewith give you a complete statement of all cars received by me from the Northern Pacific Railway Com- pany to be loaded and shipped from September 1, 1906, to December 14, i906 : Cars received and loaded for the month of September, 1906. Car No. September 3 17597 September 4 37420 Do 45796 Do 44251 September 6 4150 September 8 13345 Do 34324 September 13 37485 September 11 17184 Total, 17 cars. Car No. September 15 7420 Do 35686 September IS 37497 September 19 19157 Do 6a^W4 September 26 33042 Do 11001 September 29 45464 Cars received and loaded for the month of October, 1906. Car No. October 1 5250 Do 2610 October 3 34429 Do 44251 October 4 :«9.32 Do 8130 October 8 5715 Do 2718 October 9 10488 October 11 ;i0274 October 12 3571 October 13 45885 Total, 24 cars. Car No. Octoljer 13 45409 Do 10644 October 15 33395 October 16 37997 Do 38051 October 20 5588 Do 37307 October 25 41579 Do 18052 October 27 65013 October 2!> 4549 Do 9i02 CAB SHORTAGE. 175 Carg received and loaded for the month of November, 1906. Car No. November 2 34104 November 7 42415 November 10 11122 November 14_ ..I 13463 Total, 8 care. Ca? No. November 16 <5n02 November 17 ST.'i'Jj November 22 r>K07 Do . 4401X) Cars received and loaded for the month of December, 1906. Car No. December 12 4236 Car No. December 7 9630 December 8 41489 Total. 3 cars. I also wish to state In connection with the above that for the month of Sep- tenil)or I re<'p|ved alwut .'ier and Noveml>er as I did in tlie month of Sept«'ml)er, which would have Increased our re<'eipts about 58.000 bushels of grain. A. C. CooPEB, Manager. P. S. — I wish to state further that for the month of November I sold 11 cars contents of grnin. but was only able to get 8 cars, and con.«e(iuently I got short at Duluth .'{.(KX) bushels. I thought when selling 11 cars for the month of November that 1 was quite conservative, being that we get 24 cars for Octol)er. A. C. C. This is a statement from the above elevator, giving the cars for each of the months : Lisbon, N. Dak., December 11, 1906. E. Billings. Deab Sib: Number of care for September, 16; for October. 16; for Novem- l)er, 6; to Decern l>er 17, 3. And no handling room for durum, rye, barley, or only one grade of wheat F. C. Rector, Agent. (The above was marked " Exhibit No. 2 to Mr. Billings testi- mony," and is herewith filed.) Mr. Marble. You had a statement from a coal dealer? Mr. Billings. Ye.s, sir. Mr. M.VRBLE. AMiat was that? Mr. BiLLixos. On the 2d of November he had several cars of coal ordered, and he has not been able to get them yet. That is Frank Smith, of Li.sbon. Mr. M.ARBLE. Do you know whether they have been shipped ? Mr. Billings. N^o; thev have not been shipped. The letters show — ^he had the letters, but I have not them with me — would ship them as soon as they could get cars; have not been able to get cars yet. Mr. Marble. That is all. (Witness was here excused.) Albert M. Carlbi/)m, called as a witness and being duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. M.\rble. Mr. Carlblom, you re.side at Wimbledon, N. Dak. ^ Mr. Carlbix)m. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. On what road is that? 176 CAB SH0BTA6E. Mr. Carlblom. Minneapolis, St. Paul and Sault Ste Marie. Mr. Marble. What is your business ? Mr, Carlblom. General merchandise and banking. Mr. Marble. Are you acquainted with the grain situation in your town? Mr. Carlblom. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And with the car supply*in your town ? Mr. Carlblom. Yes; a little. Mr. Marble. And how has the car supply of your town been thi;- year? Mr. Carlblom. Well, about half the time the elevators have been closed for want of capacity. There are three elevators. Mr. Marble. Has that had any effect on the price paid for grain ? Mr. Carlblom. I think it has, some. Mr. Marble. Do you know how much ? Mr. Carlblom. I think the margin — they both had a larger margin this year than they used to. Mr. Marbi^. Do you know how much larger? Mr. Carlblom. About 2 cents, perhaps. Mr. Marble. Is that because of the shortage of cars, do you know ? Mr. Carlblom. Why, the people seem to think so in the locality. Mr. Marble. Do the elevator men say so ? Mr. Oarlblom. I have not heard them say so. Mr. Marble. Have you had any statement as to the length of time it took cars to get from your point to Duluth ? Mr. Carlblom. No, I have not. Mr. I^Iarble. You have not looked into that? Mr. Carlblo^i. I had a car of flour ordered from Oaks loaded on Monday, and I did not receive it for six days, and it is only 21 miles. I received the shipping bill for it. It is now been in the yards for nearly six days. Mr. Marble. Twenty-one miles that flour has to travel? Mr. Carlblom. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And it took six days to be delivered ? Mr. Carlblom. Yes, sir. Mr, Marble, Do you know anything about the cars being loaded and standing on the track after being loaded ; did you notice that sort of thing? Mr. Carlblom. No, sir ; not there. I think they have been shipped out. Mr. Marble, "SVhat is the coal situation in your town ? Mr, Carlblom, Yesterday, when I left there, I found there was on hand three tons of hard coal. We have not had any soft coal for six weeks ; and no wood for about six weeks, Mr. Mabrle. How long would 3 tons of hard coal last ? Mr. Carlblom. I do not suppose it would last very long; I suppose it was sold yesterday. Mr. Marble. Did you talk with your coal dealers as to the situa- tion? Mr, Carlblom. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble, What did they tell you? Mr, Carlblom, I wrote to the Forbes Elevator Company, of this city, and told them about the situation. They replied they had had some cars in transit from three to six weeks, and that they could not help it; that the railroads could not get it through. CAB SHORTAGE. 177 Mr. Marble. Cars in transit from three to six weeks? How far are you from Duluth? Mr. Carlblom. In the neighborhood of 300 miles, I think. Mr. Marble. That is all. (Witness was excused.) John Powers, called as a witness and being duly sworn, was ex- amined and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Your name is John Powers? Mr. Powers. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbi^. You reside at Havana, N. Dak. ? Mr. Powers. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is your business, sir ? Mr. Powers. Well, I nm a creamery there and a wood yard. Mr. Marbix. a coal yard ? Mr. Powers. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Do not sell coal ? Mr. Powers. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you in the grain business at all ? Mr. Powers. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you acquainted with the shipping conditions at your town this fall ? Mr. Powers. I am to a certain extent. Mr. Marble. AMiat have those conditions been? Mr. Powers. Well, very poor, in regard to getting cars. The ele- vators claim they are all short of cars. Mr. Marble. Have your elevators been full of grain ? Mr. Powers. Well, they have been full most all fall, but there is hardly any day but what they get it in — some kinds of grain. Mr. Marble. Some kinds ? Mr. PowTSRS. There are some kinds that they could not take in. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether the kinds that they could not take in were the kinds usually marketed at your town ? Mr. Powers. Yes, sir, Mr. Marble. They got filled up with those kinds that form the bulk raised around your place? Mr. PowTiRS. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And then could buy no more of that sort of grain? Mr. Powers. No. Mr. Marble. Were farmers wanting to sell grain who could not? Mr. Powers. Well, T do not know that they ever had to take any away from there — there are three elevators. Mr. Marble. Do you know what the price has been — ^how that has been affected? Mr. Powers. Well, I hear the farmers complaining that it has reduced the price by having a scarcity of oars. Mr. Marble. Have you talked witH the elevator men at all ? Mr. Powers. Yes. Mr. Marble. What did they say? Mr. Powers. One of them claimed it had fell off a point, and give them a bigger margin. Mr. Marble. Did he tell you how much bigger? Mr. Powers. No; he did not say. S. Doc. 383, J»-2 12 178 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. How much grain is marketed at your town in a year ? Mr. Powers. About 120 cars, they told me. Mr. Marble. On what railroad are you? Mr. Powers. The Great Northern. Mr. Marble. And on what branch of the Great Northern? Mr. Powers. The Aberdeen branch. Mr. Marble. Did I ask you about the coal situation in your locality ? Mr. Powers. There is not any coal there at present. Mr. Marble. What are you burning for fuel? Mr. Powers. They are burning wood. There is no coal on sale. A car came in last week and all went out Saturday. Mr. Marble. How long have you been short of coal? Mr. Powers. It has been short — they have not had any supply of coal there for sale in two months- When they get in a car it goes right out. Mr. Marble. Have you discussed that matter with your coal dealers ? Mr. Powers. The coal dealers there have been notified that they would be shipped coal just as soon as they could get cars to ship it. Mr. Marble. You do not understand they have any on the way ? Mr. Po\st:rs. No; none reported on the way. Mr. Marble. Where do you get your wood from? Mr. Powers. We get it mostly from Long Prairie, Minn. Mr. Marble. Do you get cars for that readily ? Mr. Powers. No, sir ; I have had an order in for wood down there about ten days, and the shipper reported that he would load as soon as he could get a car to ship. Mr. Marble. Long Prairie is on the Great Northern road, is it not? Mr. Powers. Yes, sir. Mr. ]SL^RBLE. Do you know which branch? Mr. Powers. No ; I do not know what branch they do call that. Mr. Marble. Your other business — ^your creamery business — ^have you had a shortage of transportation ? Mr. Powers. No, sir. Mr, Marble. You have not been affected in that? Mr. Powers. No; they nm a refrigerator car one day a week — eveiy Tuesday. Mr. Marble. On that you have been served promptly ? Mr. Powers. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And there is no suffering in vour country for want of fuel? Mr. PoA\'ERS. No, sir. Mr, Marble, That is all. Mr. Begg, Mr. Powers, you spoke of the elevators being blocked on account of their capacity for one class of grain. That was always the highest grade of grain, wasn't it? Mr. Powers. Well, it was — sometimes one elevator would be blocked probably on flax. Mr. Begg. It was not different grades of any kind of grain, as of wheat? Mr. Powers, T could not say it was, Mr. Begg, Just on account of the wheat bin or flax bin being filled in the same elevator ? jSIr. Powers. Yes, sir. OAB SHORTAGE. 179 Mr. Marble. You understand that the price of grain was reduced ? Mr. Powers. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is alL (Witness waii excused.) J. E. Phelan, called as a witness, and being duly sworn, was ex- amined and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. Where do you reside? Mr. Phelan. Dickinson, N. Dak. Mr. Marble. What is your businevss? Mr. Phelan. Live-stock business. Mr. Marble. Are you a shipper of live stock? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. From what point in North Dakota? Mr. Phelan. Dickinson. Mr. Marble. And how long have you been in the live-stock business ? Mr. Pheij^n. About fourteen years. Mr. Marble. Have you ever been in the railroad business? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbus. When? Mr. Phei^n. Oh, from 1873 until 1895. Mr. Marble. On what roads ? Mr. Phelan. Lake Shore, Michigan Southern, and Northern Pacific. Mr. Marble. And in what capacity? Mr. Phelan. From locomotive fireman to division superintendent? Mr. Marble. In your experience, as a shipper of live stock, this season, did you have to wait for cars? Mr. Phelan. I consider, under the circumstances, I was very well treated in cars this season. Mr. Marble. And as to the nmning time? Mr. Phelan. Well, it would average about a day longer getting from our shipping point to Chicago than it would usually, as in former years. We had to allow a day longer to get on the market — twenty-four hours. Mr. Marble. Have you had any experience after loading cars, of having to wait before you had power or before the train was made up to go? Mr, Phelan. Just one trip? Mr. Marble. \Miat was that experience? Mr. Phelan. Now, I shipped to the Chicago market in the neigh- borhood of 200 cars, more or less. Just one shipment was delayed after loading on account of poor dispatching at the time; and then we were hampered by the dispatcher getting orders to do way work — picking up a dead engine. We got down to Mandan and we had oraers for a locomotive. This is the only experience of delay I had on the Northern Pacific this year. Mr. Marble. Have you known of other shippers having to wait for cars this year? Mr. Phelan. Yes; quite frequently. Mr. Marble. At what points? Mr. Phelan. Well, at various points. Mr. Marble. A general complaint? 180 CAB SHORTAGB. Mr. Phelan. Well, not as general as it was in former years. Mr. Marble. Better than in former years? Mr. Phelan. Three years ago it was very bad ; a year ago it was quite good, and this year, why I think every effort was put forth to handle the stock business to the best advantage. May I go ahead and explain the conditions? Commissioner Lane. Was the stock moved later in the year this year than it has l)een ? Mr. Phelan. No; it commenced to move quite early this year, but the main delay was caused by running these cars through to Chicago, having to wait for them to return. Commissioner Lane. The testimony of yesterday was, as I remem- ber it, that live stock was moved much later this year, causing more congestion. Mr. Phelan. No ; live stock commenced to move in July this year. Usually the live stock movement is in September and October, while some of it is moving yet — moving very late this year, part of it, but the movement is very late; the bulk of it moved in September and October. Mr. Marble. Is this an article [handing part of a newspaper to witness] prepared by you and printed by you in the Fargo Forum and Daily Republican under date of Thursday, October 11, 1906? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And this article I have shown you, printed in the Fargo Forum in October, lOOC, was written by you? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have here in this article the statement that — One man I found who has spent weeks in rounding up his small herd, and after taking it to the railroad and waiting several days for cars, returned them to the range and turned them loose again. En route to the market this year shippers told me that it is a scramble in which uncertainties prevail. One shipper, after loading, was held at the loading point eight hours, awaiting more loading, for more cars, but time waited not, and the tAAenty-eight or thirty-six hour limit expired not far down the road and the cattle were unloaded to reiieat the operation. This shipper had been waiting three hours at Belt Line Junction for a switch engine to take his train to Mr. Hill's Twin City yards, when I met him. "What do you mean by the twenty-eight or thirty-six hour limit? Mr. Phelan. That alludes to the Great Northern shipment. The twenty-eight hours is the Federal requirement for cattle to be unloaded after being twenty-eight hours on the car. Mr. Marble. And when does this time limit commence ? Mr. Phelan. I think some of them would be a guess. It neces- sarily runs from the time it is placed on the bill of lading, as having been loaded, which is the actual loading time; and there is an exten- sion of that to thirty-six hours by the shipper signing the request to extend to thirty-six hours. They can remain on the car thirty-six hours. Mr. Marble. Is that law generally observed in the shipping of cattle? Mr. Phelan. It is observed too strictly, very often, from my stand- point. Mr. M.\rble. That is, it compels you to unload them before reaching destination. You have to unload them in that time, when otherwise you could get through and finish your journey? OAB SHORTAGE. 181 Mr. Phelan. And get to a particular destination. It would exj>e- dite the car movement greatly if that law was not too strictly enforced. Mr. Marble. (Reading) : One stiK'k train was held over twenty-four hours at a terminal before unload- ing, after the thirty -six-hour limit had expUvd, but as thne loadluK and unload- ing doesn't count, the letter of the law was complied with, and all they had to do was to forget about any possible damage to the stock. Now, do I understand that one car was held at a station after the thirty-six hour limit had expired? Mr. Phelan. A shipper told me that occurred at I-0 loads for the North Coast Limited the engineer was careless in handling his brake valve, resulting in three drawbars pulling out and one knuckle breaking, or something like that Mr. Phelan. That is rights Mr. Marble. Your observation, as a railroad man, is that that engine was too heavily loade^l ? Mr. Phelan. No; these engines — the train was not too heavily loaded if it could move along and keep moving and if everything was properly and carefullv handled, but whoi*o such heavy tonnage is carried on an engine tne least blunder or incapacity or incom- petency of the engineer sets everything wrong. Mr. Marble. Increa.ses the liability to accidents? Mr. Phelan. Increa.ses the liability to accidents, detention, and dilatory service — all three. Mr. Marble. Each one results in delays ? 184 CAB SHOKTAGE. Mr. Phelan. Yes. Mr. Marble. You can not expect men to always do the right thing at the right time ? Mr. Phelan. Unless they are properly rested; dead men can not do good work in an office or anywhere else. Mr. Marble. Is it your observation that these train men are over- worked ? Mr. Phelan. I can not say that. There are frequent cases of that kind, especially where they are on the roads for such unreasonable hours, and where they are sent out on these drags and kept dragging clear through indefinitely, regardless of time and consequences; that is simply pernicious. Mr. Marble. What do you mean by a " drag ? " Mr. Phelan. A drag is a term generally applied by railroad men to a heavy freight train; that is, a train that is long and heavy. These engines are rated, of course, according to the capacity when they are in first-class shape. Very frequently engines are in bad condition, and I think that is the cause of much of the trouble; the engines are not kept in good shape — that is, are not kept at their full capacity — in other words, " slaughtered." Engines have got to be kept in good condition ; cylinders have got to be kept round ; valves have got to be kept faced, so that there can be no waste of steam, and in every other way an engine has got to be handled and attended to by mechanics, so that when they get out every move will count. In that way tonnage is no difficulty, if engines are sent out in first-class shape and engineers and firemen are rested. Everything would go on much better, and go along well enough, with experienced men and matters in good shape; but the cylinder packing wears Out; valves cutting and various other matters happen to those engines. It is just like a man buying an automobile, and expecting God to take care of it. He will go out in the country once in a while and stay there, and have to get a team to pull him back to town. A machine has got to have the most careful watch, and when railroad companies abandon their shops and cut down their material 100 per cent, and do every- thing else like a man running a cheap clothing store, you can not expect good service on a railroad. Mr. Marble. Do any of those conditions obtain as to the Great Northern or the Northern Pacific ? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir; they do, most decidedly; that is, I do not say it is general; there are many engines in excellent shape — many others are sent out and not given the attention they deserve. Mr. Marble. As to either of those two roads, have they cut down their shops or abandoned their shops? Mr. Phelan. The Northern Pacific Railroad at one time was equipped clear through to the coast with the best system of shops and organization and short terminal distances, where the men could attend to the boilers and keep everything in firet-class shape. Now, I will cite to you an instance — what a road master told me the other day — which was a comparison of the road department with the machinery department. He told me that last year he had 150 broken rails in one district of 14 miles long, and yet never had an accident. That man was always attending to business; when those rails would break they were caught, they were bolstered up and put in shape, and everything went along all right. Now, at one time this economy craze and tonnage craze made half of the railroad men in the country CAB SHORTAGE. 185 crazy, and the other half are following — are afraid they will loee their jobs on the same score. The Northern Pacific followed the lead of the Great Northern. The track is supposed to be put down with good, heavy rails. It is my opinion and observation that the Northern Pacific followed the lead of the Great Northern. I consider the Pennsylvania road is a very much over-estimated concern. You will find that in your ^raft investigation; but on that score these shops were abandoned. Now, for instance, at Fargo they had shops where they could get out about three engines a month ; at Mandan they could do the same ; at Dickinson they had lathes and machinery to do ordinary running repairs; and at Glendive they had shops; and these division shops, in fact, the district shops, were dismantled, machinery taken out of them, and the division shops were partially dismantled. This is none of my concern except that it ajffects me as a shipper. I know the management of the Northern Pacific; so far as I am personally concerned, I have been treated splendidly, but every little while I run up against these things and I suffer by it, and I see it with my own eyes. The other day I went into the roundhouse at Dickinson, and you could not see your hand before your eyes for steam. The transition from light power to heavy power has gone on until every round- house on the system has had to be extended. At Dickinson there should be steam pipes by which the engines, when they were blowing off — escaping steam should be taken care of by pipes attached to these engines, and allow the steam to escape into the outer air and leave a clear atmosphere. In the process of construction those pipes have been neglected and abandoned, and the result is there is a whole cloud of steam in there, and men take their lives in their hands when they try to go about and do anything. They are about four or five weeks behind what they ought to be. That is what I call poor house- keeping, poor railroading. These engines should be able to go into the roundhouses at Dickinson or Mandan and be repaired proniptlv. If the force there was not sufficient some one should bring men in and get these engines in shape to go out; but ^ou take away that surplus force and you put it right up to the limit of the force, and when your engines come in and need rej)airs hurriedly you have not the force to do the repairs; the result is your engines quickly run down and deteriorate and you are getting poor service, and that means general demoralization. Now, if you say anything about that to the ordinary officer who is responsible for these things you get him hot right away, he resents it as an insult, and I have tried in all my utterances to avoid the attitude that some of these men will put you into as having it in for the road. Now, there is the Northern Pacific. That property is one of the most magnificent properties in the country. So far as the engineer- ing department is concerned and the revision of grades, the recon- stniction of lines and its track, and everything of that kind, it can not be excelled, and its traffic department, its legal department — fine gentlemen all through, and the transportation oepartment, so far as my contact with them — they are splendid fellows, all of them able men, but somehow or other there is some sort of a demoralization, demoralized condition — that everybody seems to be acting only to preserve his own position, and everybody is afraid to get out and 186 CAB SHORTAGE. wheel the necessary stuff in order to get this work into line and have it done proi^erly, have men do their work. Engines are sent out to do the work in our district and they have been smashed, a dozen within a few weeks, by collisions or burning. I do not like that personally; I have a feeling against that kind of work, and I always have had. I have got a contempt for dead men, no matter where you find them, and I always feel that if it takes from now to next shipping season, they can not any more than get this done, and that I will be up against the same proposition next year. I want to know whether my cattle are going to get to market, and I need to know — and unless somebody speaks out, and somebody finds these weak points, demonstrates them, and has them removed, we are never going to get any better service. The first condition is this. You must not only keep your track in shape, but keep your power in shape, and pick out experienced men, and keep moving it ; get the men with the capacity and the caliber that can do the work. It makes me tired to see every terminal and every side track in the country congested. If they would get them out, they could do three times the business with them. Commissioner Lane. Can you give me an idea of the date on which this demoralization on the Northern Pacific began — can you approxi- mate the date on which the demoralization in the operating depart- ment of the Northern Pacific began ? Mr. Phelan. Three years ago it showed up the worst. Commissioner Lane. And has been continuing growing thicker ever since ? Mr. Phelan. No; I have taken up matters with them regarding my shipments, and I know from the results that efforts have been made there to give people good service, but just as soon as the pres- sure is taken off it lags again, and they get in a hole and go to sleep — something is the matter. Now, one instance was cited to me by a railroad man in my district of enignes where water hose gave out. Hose were taken off of one engine to repair another one with. I un- derstand that is because these supplies of the road have been reduced from a hundred per cent, or from $4,000,000 to $2,000,000, just simply for the interest to be saved on the $2,000,000. Engines run without kerosene — engines run without headlights. It is a bad matter to need the ordinary little supplies and things. I will bet the president don't know about it ; it is all covered up. This creates car shortage, which is simply a matter of not getting the cars around. Commissioner Lane. What is the purpose of cutting off these sup- plies or reducing the amount of the supplies — to make an increase in earnings — to make a reduction in operating expenses? Mr. Phelan. No; to make a showing on paper for some executive officer. Commissioner Lane. In other words, the road, according to your idea, is being operated not for the benefit of the shipper and the public or even the owners so much as it is for somebody else ? Mr. Phelan. If Mr. Hill is rapping these men for a showing of this kind, they feeling they are earning their salaries by making a showing of that kind — economy — why, of course, they rap all the way down on the line for the purpose of swelling stocks in Wall street. That is the way it has always appeared to me. Now, so far as Mr. Hill is concemea, as a farmer, if he would pay half the attention to the rail- road men and the matter of excellent results on the railroad that he CAB SHOBTAOB. 187 pays to his prize pigs on his farm, we would not have any car short- age in the Northwest. Commissioner Lane. You know the car shortage, or whatever it is, does not obtain only here; It is quite as serious in Texas as it is in Miimesota. We have congestion down there where there are 80.000 cars and they are not able to load them, and some roads won't allow any of their cai-s to go into Texas at the present time because they can not get them back. Mr. PiiELAN. I have followed cattle trains from Texas to North Dakota, and know how it prevails all over, but the weakness comes in from the fact that if one numagement finds another prouiinent managentent suffering the same way that is put forward as an ex- cuse for weakness. Because everybody lies or because everybody is weak is really no excuse. Commissioner Lane. Do I understand you to mean by that that if there is a certain standard of operating expenses set up by one road, it has its effect upon the minds of those who are buying railroad stock, that other railroads conform to that standard so as to have the same beneficial effect? Mr. Phelan. If one management seeks to get the traffic over the road, and will reduce tonnagi' a little to expedite traffic, the first time their report of tonnage goes down to Wall street some prominent financier will get his "stuffed club" out and say: "Why don't you do as well as the Great Northern; why don't you nuike a showing like the Hill Line or some of the Southern roads?" And the result is they all sidetrack everything to tonnage, and the only result is they pay no attention to time. A train has 2,000 tons, and it mat- ters not whether that train is one or two weeks getting over the road, thirty hours or forty hours, it simply counts as tonnage, and the standard of time of getting cars over the road in an expedi- tious way or reasol^able miles per hour does not cut any figure. It has been demonstrated — no doubt it was a fact — that it costs more to run a train i^ a fairly high rate of sj^eed than it does at a low rate of speed, all things bemg equal. Thev will cut off the fast trains because there is more monev in slow trains than there is in fast trains. Commissioner Lane. What railroatl were you superintendent on? Mr. Phelan. On the Northern Pacific. Mr. Marble. We have here (referring to newspaper clipping) : There Is some kind of fiction In un8clentifl<' railroading which does not class a light engine as a train, and one engine with two calxMiscs will drag 12.(NX) tons of freight, more or less, with the light engine dallying behind or hitting the caboose suddenly when the drag stops on a <'urve or at a water tank. If one engine drags 'J.ihmi tons alone or as a double header, or with the liglit engine following, it enhances the tonnage re^-ord. If the 2.(K)0 tons is divided into two trains of 1.000 tons each much iH'tter service is insured, but the tonnage re<-ord, on pai>er, is inipainHl. Am I right? Puzzle: Find anything like a common-sense basis for this practice. Mr. Phelan. That is right. This tonnage record is more or less a fiction; it is as false as hell, l>ec4iuse a man can take, under those couditions, and by keeping his freight on the road indefinitely, there is no quastion asked at headquarters or «lown at Wall Street how that is accomplished. I say that ought to be punished the same as coun- terfeiting is punished. Mr. ^Grble. Have you observed such practices? Mr. Phelan. It is invariably practiced. It is the most ridiculous thing I ever saw. 188 OAB SHORTAQB. Mr. Marble. You regard all tonnage records, then, as simply paper results, and not even as indicating economies obtained for stock- holders ? Mr. Phelan. No, sir. I do not want to be spreading myself on record as being opposed to the tonnage system, of having an engine pulling every ton it is capable of pulling, but I say the fault comes in in having an engine fitted out with a tonnage where it is incapaci- tated by not being kept properly in repair; that is where the fault of tonnage comes in ; putting out a maximum tonnage on an engine that is in excellent shape is good for the stockholders, shippers, and every- body else. Air. Marble. And when you say maximum, you would have regard to speed as well as to weight? Mr. Phelan. You get an engine on a maximum tonnage — why, that means that it will handle that in very reasonable time. The only danger in that comes in in too many stops, and not being prompt to move along, and it takes longer to stop and it takes longer to start. Mr. Marble (reading) : Last spring at Manhattan, Mont, with a stock train, I was blocked for seven hours by a way freight train with an ordinary engine, anchored down with 1,800 tons of freight The train dispatchers persevered in their efiforts and devices to get this train out of the hole, but dead weight and a primitive sidetrack were against the engine and the force. Mr. Phelan. There is a peculiar condition at Manhattan. The primitive side track was one of the early side tracks, built on the natu- ral ground level, not up to grade. The train would be in a hole, and an engine to pull that train out of such a side track has got to do vio- lence to the equipment. You have got to jerk and pull drawbars in order to get it out ; and another thing, 1,800 tons with an ordinary light engine on a freight train, where they have got to stop at all stations to unload cars and pick up freight, is too much. A way freight train, above all things, should move promptly — ^get its work done and move aloi^g to another station. Instead of that, the division superin- tendent loads a train down so that at that time at Manhattan, which was only about 40 miles out of the terminal, it had been fourteen hours on the road. I sat up that night. I went over to the caboose to go to sleep, and it was just as good as the grand opera for me to sit around and see the antics. Those men were asleep on the telegraph office floor, and to show the way railroading can be done, if you have got a live man — the passenger train came in there, and this train had to set after the passenger, and way freight train east bound came in and the con- ductor got off who was ahead and had sidetracked. He said to this freight conductor : " Here, pull up there so I can get on a side track." The conductor made his usual excuses — the engine was out of order and could not pull up — the engineer says the engine is out of order. He said, "To hell with the engineer." (They are always making such excuses.) " Now, you make room." That man went up ahead of the passenger train. The passenger train came and was not delayed five minutes, and went back and got out of there in thirty minutes. That man was alive. That is what I say, if there was more of that spirit among the men to-day to have things done, we should not have any car shortage. I admired that man ; he ought to be made a train master; he ought to be made a superintendent — somebody that can push. CAB SHOBTAGB. 189 Mr. Marble. In justice to those men you criticise, do you know how long they had been working? Mr. Phelan. Fourteen hours on the road does not do the man any harm. Mr. Marble (reading) : Last week, at Dickinson, a train of empty stock cars stood In the yartls for twelve hours or more waiting iwwer to send them west, when tliree trains of cattle were In the immefllate vicinity waiting for cars, yet the additional engines for local service from the east and the same number from the west bad not be^i provided with crews. Did you observe such a condition of affairs? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. More than once? Mr. Phelan. Yes; quite frequently since. Mr. Marble. That the engines and the cars and the crews do not meet when their combined services are needed. Mr. Phelan. I would explain by saying these engines that were waiting for crews, tiiat came simply from the master mechanic not looking far enough ahead and having men educated and having men available to put on those engines when they were needed, and the cars setting there for want of engines. Those cars could have been loaded there and they could have been two hundred miles by the time they move out west. Those cars were ordered to go to Montana and farther points, and there was an order to send them there, so the local people were powerless to use those cars in that way. There are a hundred and one things in railroading of that kind. They attempt to direct work five hundred miles from the place where the work is Ijcing done, and the result is they muddle things. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Phelan, how long have you been a railroad man? Mr. Phelan. I went to railroading when I was 16 years old. Commissioner Harlan. That does not quite answer my question. Mr. Phei^n. From 1873 to 1895 — twenty-three years. Commissioner Harlan. How long have you been a stock raiser? Mr. Pheijvn. I have been stock raising now about fourteen years. Commissioner Harlan. What have been your opportunities for observing the management and conduct of the Nortnern Pacific the last five years, say ? Mr. Phelan. Well, now, for instance, this vear I ship|)ed in a hundred cars of cattle from Montana and Washington. I followed every train load of cattle out; I followed it from loading point to destniation. Commissioner Harlan. That was to Chicago? Mr. Phelan. I went with my cattle to Chicago — rode in the caboose and saw just how things were going. Commissioner Harlan. How often have you taken that trip? Mr. Phelan. I have taken it Commissioner Harijin. In five years. Mr. Phelan (continuing). For five years I have taken it almost invariably with the cattle trains. This seascm I left the train and went on the passenger. Commissioner Harlan. How many trips have you taken in five years? Mr. Phelan. That would be impossible to answer now. Commissioner Haelan. How many this year? 190 OAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Phelan. Five or ten — I have probably taken eight trips this year — counting the stock cattle I have taken a dozen trips. Commissioner Harlan. You come back to the west in a passenger, then? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Now, just to test the value of your state- ment, do you base all that you said on your personal observation on these trips, or do you also base it largely or to some extent upon your own experience with that road as a railroad man? Mr. Phelan. Observations and experience, both. Commissioner Harlan. Both together? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. In what you have said do you reflect the views of other railroad men who have had equal opi)ortunities of observing the conduct and management of the Northern Pacific Railroad ? Mr. Phelan. No; there is a distinction there. It depends how much scared a man is of losing his position. Commissioner Harlan. Have you talked with railroad men about the management of the Northern Pacific ? Mr. Phelan. Invariably, and very frequently I did not have to talk to them; they talked to me. Commissioner Harlan. So that something of what you have said to-night is based upon what you have heard from them ? Mr, Phelan, And what I saw for myself. Commissioner Harlan. Yes; and what you saw for yourself? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. So that you are reflecting their views as well as your own? Mr. Phelan. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. In other words, you can go so far as to say the general impression of all the railroad men you have come in con- tact with is in line with your statements here this afternoon ? Mr. Phelan. Remember, some railroad men are very diplomatic? Commissioner Harlan. They would not be diplomatic with you, would they ? Mr. Phelan. Some would and some would not. The men that talked — as a rule railroad men are very frank in talking with me. Commissioner Harlan, Then, in your statement, I understand you reflect their views also ? Mr. Phelan. Reflect the views of experienced men — inexperienced men would not have any such views — would not have any such views at all. Commissioner Harlan. Your judgment is that it is the opinion of railroad men in this northwest territory that there is no real car shortage, but that this trouble is due to mismanagement? Mr. Phelan. Well, I would not want to say that is the opinion of railroad men generally, because many of them do not really know. Commissioner Harlan. Well, are you expressing only your views or are you expressing your views and others? Mr. Phelan. No; I would say I am expressing my own opinion. That is my opinion from observation. Mr. Marble. Are you acquainted with J. W. Midgley, of Chicago? Mr. Phelan. No ; I know him by reputation, but not personally. CAB SHORTAGE. 191 Mr. Marble. By reputation — you know him as an expert in the question of car supply ? Mr. Phelan. Yes. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with his views on this subject, con- cerning which you have l)een expressing yourself? Mr. Phklan. No: I am not. Mr. Marble. Mr. Midgley, in a letter dated May 16, 1906, said : It is neuerally aiJniitttHl that there are enoufch freight cars In service to liandle the business of the country at all seasons, provided their judlci»»us distribution be as«ti.(Hl. Despite that fact, large orders for new equipment are IkMuk plactnl, and uul«»ss better methods prevail to supply cars that are needed, railroad com- panies may t>e forced Into exitendltures which the adoption of improved measures would avoid. And again he said: It Is generally agree- at the busiest seastm, provided they are properly moved. Mr. Phei^n. I agree with that ; there is no question about that in my mind. Mr. HiNN. Mr. Phelan, a road which is incompetently and im- properly managed would decrease its efficiency, would it not? Mr. Phei^n. I do not understand the last question. Mr. BuNN. Would decrease its efficiency? Mr. Phelan. Very greatly. Mr. BiNN. Very greatly decrease the amount of freight which it could handle? Mr. Phelan. That depends upon what you would compare it with, Mr. Bunn. Mr. Bi NN. Compared with its maximum efficiency. Mr. Phelan. What would you base your maximum efficiency at — what tigure? Mr. Bunn. Bad management, compared with good management, would decrea.se greatly the effciency or any railroad, would it not? Mr. Phei^n. That depends whether the railroad had been operated at its maxinunn capacity. Mr. Bunn. If it would not, what is the value of good management? Mr. Phelan. The value of good management is in having things done right, and for the least co.st. Mr, BiNx. Good management increases the efficiency of any rail- road — the volume of business which it would handle? Mr. Phelan. It surely will; ye.s, sir. Mr. Bunn. Mr. Phelan, if it was shown to you that the Northern Pacific Railroad, with a single track, was doing more business than almost any double track in the United States, it might modify your views about the quality of its management, might it not, Mr. Pheljin? Mr. Phelan. I have no criticism to make of the Northern Pacific as a management. Mr. BiNx. Mr. Phelan, you have assumed to say that the Northern Pacific management was bad. Mr. Phelan. No, I have not; you misunderstand me in that par- ticular. Mr. Bunn. Just a&sume that ^ou have. Mr. Phei>an. I won't assume it. I won't be put in the position of saying the Northern Pacific has not a good management; 1 know it has. 192 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Phelan, if the Northern Pacific was, with its single-track line, doing more business than most double-track lines in the United States, you would be forced to admit it was good man- agement, would you not? Mr. Phelan. I would not be forced to admit anything. You know when things are so apparently wrong and carelessly handled there is no getting around that fact. That is the trouble to-day, Mr. Bunn. There are too many excuses made ; too many tables made out, instead of getting right down and doing the things right. I live among those people and I take charge of my shipments, and I know what I am talking about. I know I have to stand the brunt of this. I know what it costs me. Mr. Bunn. I know what you have said, Mr. Phelan, but you do not seem to come to the point. Mr. Phelan. I will come to the point, but I do not want to be put in the position of reflecting upon the management of the Northern Pacific. Mr. Bunn. You would be disposed if we could show you that the road is doing what we say — handling more business with a single track than any other single track in the United States, and more than most double tracks — if that is a fact, proAading that is a fact, you would admit that the management had some good points, would you not? Mr. Phelan. I did not question the good points of the Northern Pacific management. They have excellent points, and they are very good points. It is only in the local conditions and the weak points that the management is not willing to recognize that we have our trouble, and which they are making excuses for all the time. Commissioner Harlan. You can see places, as a railroad man, where if you were in control and could spend more money for machine shops, etc., that you could better the service to the public ? ^Ir. Phelan. I believe, above all things, that you have got to keep power up to the maximum efiiciency. You have got to have shops; m other words, engines have got to go into shops at the end of the run and l^ constantly repaired and constantly attended to. Mr. Bunn. Do you know what the percentage of power on the Northern Pacific that is not in use is — that is not fit for use ? Mr. Phelan. No ; I do not. Mr. Bunn. For all you know, it is very high, is it not? Mr. Phelan. For aught I know, the amount is not high. Mr. Bunn. And the amount is efiicient? Mr. Phelan. Now, that would depend upon whether or not the efficient was on paper only or whether it was actually in existence. Mr. Bunn. In point of fact? Mr. Phelan. No; I think that most of the power represented by general comparisons as being efficient and in good shape is far below that degree of efficiency. Mr, Bunn. Do you know, Mr. Phelan — ^have you any knoavledge on the subject, or have you had an intimation that the Northern Pacific had cut down its appropriations for maintenance of power and repair of power? Mr. Phelan. No; I did not say they had cut down the appro- priation for maintenance of power, I said that they had cut down the appropriations for materials and supplies. I understood that CAB SHORTAGE. 193 had boon reduced 100 per cent, preventing material for repairs being available. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Phelan, do you know that? Mr. Phelan. ^Vhy, as near as I can observe anything. Mr. BuNN. Is it not, on the contrary, the fact that the Northern Pacific has been expending every year an increasing amount for materials, supplies, and for repairs and maintenance of locomotives? Mr. Phelan. On that score, I do not know anything about that from the table record. Mr. BuNN. That is all. (The witness was excused.) C. H. Thornton, called as a witness, and, being duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. AMiat is your name, sir? Mr. Thornton. Charles H. Thornton. Mr. Marble. AVliere do you reside? Mr. Thornton. Duluth. Mr. Marble. WTiat is your business? Mr. Thornix)n. I publish the Daily Market Report at Duluth, and the Daily Commercial Record. Mr. AIarble. Is it a part of your duty to estimate the crops — the size of the crops — in the Northwest? Mr. Thornton. Yes, sir; I have estimated crops in the Northwest for going on ten or twelve years. Air. Marble. Have you prepared figures for this hearing? Mr. Thornton. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbij:. And showing the size of the crops in the Northwest, comparatively? Mr. Thornton. I can give you those olThand. Mr. Marbi^. How does the crop in the Northwest this year com- pare with last year ? Mr. Thornton. The wheat crop this year is substantially the same as it was a year ago. The flax crop is a trifle larger; barley 10 per cent smaller; oat crop a trifle smaller. Mr. Marble. On the whole? Mr. Thornton. On the whole, it is substantially the same as a year ago, with this diflference, that the crop is not distributed as it was a year ago. There is more of it in the north and less of it in the south. Mr. Marble. How does the North Dakota crop compare with last year ? Mr. Thornton. I did not make up my crop so much by State. I made it up by lines of railroad. Mr. Marble. Taking the Soo, the Great Northern, and the North- ern Pacific, how do they compare with last year? Mr. Thornton. I think the probabilities are that the grain tonnage on the Northern Pacific, the Soo, and the Great Northern this year will exceed anything in the history of the roads. Commissioner Lane. What proportion couies from Canada? Mr. Thornton. There is a small portion of it comes from Canada. I doubt if a million bushels comes from Canada. I was not figuring Canada in that estimate. Commissioner Lane. Have you studied the movement of this year's crop? S. Doc. 33.3, 50-2 13 194 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. TiioRXTON. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Have you studied the amount into both Min- neapolis and Duhith ? Mr. Thornton. More particuhirly into Duhith. I have studied Minneapolis in a general way to keep in touch with the movement, but not in the detail that I have at Duhith. Commissioner Lane. What do you say as to the movement into Duluth, compared with previous years? Mr. Thornton. Well, the movement into Duluth this year is the largest since 1902 — largest in number of cars and largest in number of bushels. Commissioner Lane. In 1902? Mr. Thornton. In 1902 the number of cars handled was larger than in this year. Understand, I am speaking of the four months crop year that has already elapsed. Commissioner Lane. September, October, and November? Mr. Thornton. September, October, and November. In 1898, however, we handled 73,000 cars. Commissioner Lane. Would it be possible to have these figures filed? Mr. Thornton. There are only a few of them. Coimnissioner Harlan. Are j'ou going to be in Minneapolis Friday night. Mr. Thornton. I will stay, if you wish me to. Commissioner Harlan. I was just thinking perhaps j^ou could have a conference with Mr. Marble and get the figures in some shape, so that we can file them and avoid this delay. ^Ir. Thornton. I will put them in shape. The only important thing about it is that in 1906, the four months of this year, we handled 48.000 cars against 79,000 cars of grain in 1898, a decrease of over oO per cent — this fall in units of grain and cars of grain — while this fall we handled 68,000 cars of coal, a very great increase over anything before. Commissioner Lane. A^Tiere does that coal go to? Mr. Thornton. That coal went mostly west and from the Twin Cities. Commissioner Lane. Do you know how far west? Mr. Thornton. I have been told that a fair share — a considerable amount went to Montana. I am not speaking of exact knowledge in that respect. Commissioner Lane. We will now take an adjournment until 9 o'clock to-morrow morning, and the witnesses will please be on hand promptly at 9 o'clock. Thereupon, at 5.15 o'clock, the Commission adjourned. Minneapolis, Minn., December 19^ 1906^ 9 a. m. Commissioner Lane. Gentlemen, I have two telegrams here in ad- dition to those received last night. One of them is from Casselton, N. Dak., saying: About 100 tons on hand. Ten days supply. Possibly less coming from dis- tance for coal account; \\o\\% on band in surrounding towns; railroads have good supply ; no suffering as yet, but If unfavorable weather conditions follow con- sider situation serious. CAB SHORTAGE. 195 Here is another from Inkster, N. Dak. : No coal in store here ; supply nearly exhausted ; no suflforing yet, but must have coal Imnietllately. Mr. Marble. I have here the fipires from the Hanna Coal Com- pany, which were called for the other day. I will furnish you with the name of this witness. (The same is admitted in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 1, to A. O. Dieson.") • Commissioner Lane. Proceed, Mr. Marble. Mr. Marble. I have handed to the steno^apher fipires from the M. A. Hanna Coal Company, brought in by Mr. Dieson, which show shipments of coal, i^ercentages of railroacl coal, and also a car an extraordinarily long time on the road. I have some pictures which I would like to put in the record. The first shows a blockade at Anamoose, N. Dak., on the Soo Line, on October 25, 1906. There was only one elevator buying grain ancl that has a large storage bin under construction. The otners are all full and out or the market. It shows the wagons lined up with wheat for market. (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 1 — Dec 19th — Marble.'^) These are all of the same general character. This shows 60,000 bushels of wheat in the open at New Rockford, N. Dak., November 7, 1906, and all the elevators full. (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 2 — Dec. 19th— Marble.") Here is a picture from Sheyenne, N. Dak., on the Northern Pacific Railway, showing wagons of grain waiting at the elevator. (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 3 — Dec. 19th— Marble.") Here is a picture of the Royal Elevator Company at Courtenay, N. Dak., the sheds have broken, and the grain in the open bins is i)our- ing out on the ground. (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 4 — Dec 19th— Marble.") Here is another picture, from New Rockford, showing wheat in the open air in an open bin, and 112,000 bushels are there. (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 5 — Dec. 19th— Marble.") I have a picture of .50,000 bushels of wheat in sacks on the Pacific coast. However, that is on the O. R. and N., and I will not offer that. I have a report here of the committee on grain bhx'kade at Wilton, N. Dak., to the Commercial Club of the town. This report is signed by Ralph W. Anderson, W. P. Macomber, J. C. Anderson, A.^. Blexrud, George A. I^nhart, and J. J. Schmid. It is in line with the testimony as to the shortage of cars and the inability to ship. The point of interest which I will read is as follows: In ue better used. Mr. Slade. I could only say that if I could think of any such sug- gestions, I would put them into operation at once, so far as the road on which I am employed is concerned. Mr. Marble. Have you power to increase expenditures to secure better results, so far as the service to the general public is concerned ? Mr. S1.ADE. To a limited extent, with the approval of and after con- sultation with my superior officers; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are vou able to make any recommendations along that line by which a iittle less economy at some point would perhaps result in better service to-day ? Mr. Slade. We have not during the past few months considered economy in connection with the movement of our traffic in any way, 204 CAB SHOBTAGE. shape, or manner. "We have employed all of the force that could bo used to advantage, and made every possible effort to get the cars moved promptly and the best service possible along our lines. Mr. Marble. The last few months have been times of trouble, have they not? Mr Slade. They have, sir Mr. Marble. Previous to that time, do you think that if there had been less economy the trouble you are having would have been avoided ? Mr. Slade. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You think you can not avoid the same trouble in tho future without double-tracking and increasing the equipment and improving terminal facilities, and you have no improvement to sug- gest in the methods of operation ? Mr. Slade. I can think of none ; no, sir. Mr. Marble. You are familiar with the letters which Mr. Midgley, of Chicago, has been sending out relative to this car shortage ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with his statement that there is enough equipment in the country to accommodate the business of the country at the busiest time if properly used, and that it is conse- quently up to the railroad officers now to devise means to utilize that equipment and stimulate the movement of freight cars if they desire to avoid Government ownership? I am giving you Mr. Midgley's views now and not anyone's else. Mr. Slade. I am familiar with those letters. Mr. Marble. You are familiar with those letters? Mr, Slade. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you agree with his remedy of the car pool ? Mr. Slade. I do not, no; not as applied to our. own particular conditions, with which I am best acquainted. Mr. Marble. If you had a car pool you would be about 3,000 cars poorer, however, than you are ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir; to-day. Mr Marble. That is all. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Slade, you say you have 823 loco- motives at this time ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. How many are new during this year? Mr. Slade. There have been added to our equipment since June 30, 1905, 120 locomotives to date. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know how many are in the shops at this present moment for repairs? Mr. Slade. Approximately; yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. What is that percentage? Mr. Slade. I think about 7 or 8 per cent. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know how that number of loco- motives compares with the number of locomotives on other north- western lines? Mr. Slade. I think probably the percentage is the lowest. I make that statement for the reason that it is the lowest percentage of loco- motives out of service we have ever had on our system. I thinlc that the work could hardly be kept up any closer than it is with us. OAB SHORTAGE. 205 Commissioner Harijvn. How do the total numlx»r of locomotives compare with the total number of miles and tonnage, compared with other northwestern roads ? Mr. Slade. I have never made any such comparison. Commissioner Hablan. Is it not the general understanding that there are less locomotives on your line than other nortii western roads? Mr. Slade. I have never heard the stateuient made ; no, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Is there a uniform scale of wages on all these northwestern lines ? Mr. Slade. Not absolutely uniform. The general basis is the same on the northwestern lines. Commissioner Harlan. So in a general way you would say that your labor is paid just as much as other lines' in the same territory? Mr. Slade. It is not paid any less in any case, and, if anything, more. Commissioner Harlan. Now, Mr. Slade, there have been several statements made here in relation to the great quantities of wheat lying on the ground at particular points on your lines. Have you taken any special measures to give relief at those points ? Mr. Si^DE. I have not heard the name of a single station on our line mentioned at which there was grain piled out of doors on th*j ground. Commissioner Hari^n. Perhaps I am in error. Perhaps it is on the other lines. You have heard statements of elevators filled and where a great quantity of wheat is waiting to be moved. Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Have you taken any measures to give relief at those points ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir; we have endeavored to relieve the stations at which the elevators were blocked in order to allow thorn to receive grain in preference to relieving stations where the elevators were open and all receiving grain. Commissioner Harlan. What were those measures? Just sending more cars in ? Is that all ? Mr. Slade. By giving them cars in preference to places able to do business. Mr. Begg. Mr. Slade, how many locomotives has your company bought this year that have not yet lH»en delivered? Mr. Sijvde. No locomotives which have l>een contracted for and time of delivery which has now passed that have not l)cen delivered. Mr. Begg. There are some contracted for that are to be delivered later? Mr. Slade. Yes. Mr. Begg. How many of those? Mr. Slade. One hundred and fifty. Mr. Begg. Will you explain the percentage of increase in the tract- ive power of these new locomotives — that is, is the tractive power greater than or less than the percentage of increase of numl)er of locomotives ? Mr. Slade. The percentage is very much greater. The additional tractive power of the 120 locomotives is somewhat over 20 per cent, if I rememl)er correctlv. Mr. Begg. You would say that the increase in tractive power is 20 per cent ? 206 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Slade. The increase in number of locomotives would be ap- proximately 15 per cent, and the increase in tractive power would be aj)proximately 20 per cent. Mr. Begg. Yes. Now, 120 locomotives were secured last year. Did that increase the tractive power of the equipment a greater percent- a^'fi than the increase in the number of locomotives? Mr. Slade. That is the point I was trying to make, that in the number of locomotives it was 15 per cent, and the total increase in the tractive power 20 per cent. Mr. Begg. Do you know what the increase of business was during that same period — the volume of traffic? Mr. Slade. For the fiscal year ? Mr. Begg. Yes. Mr. Slade. I think the tons moved 1 mile showed an increase of at least 16 per cent. Mr. Begg. You made a statement of the causes of the delays in the movement of cars. What is the one thing above all others that delays freight cars in their movement ? Mr. Slade. The greatest delay, of course, is in relieving equipment after it reaches its destination. Mr. Begg. At the terminal ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. Is your company making all the efforts it can to in- crease terminal facilities ? Mr. Slade. We are ; yes, sir. Mr. Begg. Are there any special difficulties in the way of increasing terminal facilities at this time? Mr. Slade. The special difficulties we have encountered this year have been shortage of labor and shortage of material. Mr. Begg. It is impossible to do the work — you are familiar with the causes that have led up to this condition, which made it difficult to furnish cars for wheat and the like. Will you explain it at length to the Commission, just what you think the causes have been that led up to this delay, so far as your system is concerned ? Mr. Slade. In the first place, the increase in the general traffic; the greater movement over our main line, due to the increased con- sumption of manufactured articles in the cities of the West and towns of the West, and the greater demand for the various products of the Pacific coast; the increased density of population, with consequent increased demand for transportation in the Northwest. And, aside from any of the increases in traffic, the very peculiar weather condi- tions which we have had throughout the entire territory covered bv our lines during the past twelve months — unusual wet weather, with washouts in Montana in the spring; usually dry weather in North Dakota during the summer; unusually wet weather in Minnesota dur- ing the summer; the storms of unprecedented severity in the State of Washington ; the absolute cessation for a period of a week in western Washington; the recent terrific blizzards in North Dakota. Mr. Begg. How long have those blizzards lasted now ? Mr. Slade. We have had practically continuous blizzards in the State of North Dakota for a period of thirty-one days. Tlie first heavy snowstorm came on the 17th day of November, and was in evidence this morning in North Dakota. CAB SHORTAGE. 207 The situation has been further comphcated in our case by the strike of the coal miners at the mines of Crows Nest Pass, from which we had been receiving approximately one-quarter of our total fuel for locomotive use. The strike continued for a period of nearly two months, from the 22d of September to the 20tn of November, and during that time we were compelled to use fuel of inferior quality, were unable to secure fuel in sufficient (juantities, and were at times unable to move our traffic on account of having insufficient fuel to place on our tenders. Mr. Beoo. Mr. Slade, in addition to being required to use inferior coal, what effect did it have on the employees, when this change was made? Mr. Slade. It was extremely demoralizing to the men. The fuel from British Columbia was of a very high class and gave splendid results, but the fuel which replaced it was of such inferior quality that it caused a great deal of discouragement among the men, and while we were able to move our trains, a part of our trains with the fuel, a great many of our engines failed for steam. It was impossible to keep them running as they should. Mr. Beqq. Did any of your firemen abandon work because they had to use that inferior quality of coal? Mr. Slade. Yes; we had cases in which we had to send out as many as three firemen on passenger trains to protect freight trains, to bring them into the terminals. Mr. Beqo. Now, are there any other matters that you have in mind which contributed to bring about this condition? Mr. Slade. I think that it was upon the subject of rapid increase in the number of employees — the difficulty of securing sufficient competent men to handle our traffic, and I consider that one of the greatest obstacles that we have had to successful operations this year. Mr. Beoo. Now, the westbound traffic has increased a great deal this year? Mr. vSlade. Yes, sir. Mr. Beoo. That decreased the empty car movement West, and has made the return of cars to the west somewhat slower than would be the case in ordinary seasons ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir; that is true. Mr. Beoo. What efforts have your company made to improve facilities for doing business in territory that is congested ? Mr. Slade. The greatest help to our operations this fall would have been the completion of our extension from Aneta to Devils Lake, North Dakota. Had that line been completed, we would have diverted a portion of the traffic which now passes over our line between Devils Lake and Larimore, North Dakota. It would have very much facilitated the movement of our traffic from North Dakota to points south, to Breckenridge, Minn. Mr. Beoo. In other words, you would have practically had a double track ? Mr. Slade. We would have had a double track, had that line been constructed ; ves, sir. Mr. Beoo. Now, give the obstacles in the way of the completion of that line. 208 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Slade. Primarily, delay in receiving material and shortage of labor. Mr. Beqq. Simply could not get the material and labor in there to complete it? Mr. Slade. That was all. Mr. Begkj. It was planned early last winter? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. And begun early in the spring? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Mr Begg. Whet additions has the company made to its facilities in the direction of water tanks and the like looking to the increase of facilities in that territory ? Mr. Slade. We have under construction at the present time some- thing over 100 miles of additional passing tracks and yard tracks, and have done a great deal in the way of providing new water supply. Mr. Begg. Reservoirs? Mr. Slade. We have constructed reservoirs. Mr. Begg. You have also located shops up in that territory? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir; we are extending our shop facilities to meet the reqruirements of our increased equipment. Mr. Begg. Where are those shops to be located ? Mr. Slade. We are locating a shop at Devils Lake, North Dakota. Mr. Begg. Have you improved your facilities for furnisliing coal in that territory also? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir, Mr. Begg. Have you increased your coal sheds ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir ; we have made a number of such improvements every year. Mr. Begg. Then, you attribute this congested condition more than anything else to the exceptional circumstances which have existed there this year — largely weather conditions? Mr. Slade. Labor and weather conditions, in a word. Mr. Begg. Mr. Slade, from time to time during the hearing, there has been a suggestion that if trains were reduced in size it would facilitate the movement of freight over the road. Will you please state what, in yom* opinion, would be the effect of reducing the ton- nage of your trains, mcreasing the number of your trains, upon the movement of freight along the road, of course, and terminals ? Mr. Slade. In places the result of such a policy would simply be to prevent the movement of as much traffic as is handled under the present operating conditions. By increasing the number of trains on a congested district you would have so many trains on the road that you would be more delayed — the delays would probably be more in meeting trains than the delays are now, due to the slower movement between the stations — than with the engine loaded to a reasonable — the engine pulling a reasonable load. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Slade, just explain, if you please, when you take a train of 40 cars and split it up into 2 trains of 20 cars why would you not make more speed in that manner ? Mr. Slade. Between stations ? Commissioner Harlan. Yes, sir; there would be practically the same tonnage to handle. Now those things I do not know about, and I would like to know why the splitting up of a train in that way, CAB SHORTAQE. 209 which would enable you to make faster time, would necessarily tend to congest the movement. Mr. Slade. For this reason: The meeting points between trains increase, not directly with the number of trains run, but as the square of the number of trains run. For instance, witli 2 trains in each direction over a division there are four meeting points. With three trains in each direction there are nine meeting points. With four trains in each direction there are sixteen meeting points. And the increased number of trains running out of terminals will cause more delay at the meeting points, making it necessary for trains to take the sidetracks oftener tnan if the trains were loacied so that the engines could move with reasonable speed over the road and have fewer meeting points and get into the sidetracks lisss often. Commissioner Lane. \lr, Slade, jou said in answer to Mr. Begg's question that you thought the conditions prevailing on your road were due to weather conditions and labor conditions largely. Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Now, up to the 17th of November, what exceptional weather condition was there 1 Mr. Slade. We had, previous to that time, an absolute cessation of traffic on the Cascade Mountains, due to washouts in Washington, and the consequence of that has been to retard the movement or eastbound traffic, causing an accumulation. of business on the west- em side of the Cascade Mountains, whicli we have been unable to reduce. That has prevented that equipment from coming into eastern territory to be unloaded. Commissioner Lane. You do not have cars there to move lumber, do you, on the west side of the Cascades? Mr. Slade. It is not possible to move as much lumber as the peo- ple want to ship, but still it delayed the loading, which was very nearly equal to our ability — very near our capacity of eastbound movement over the Cascade Mountains. Commissioner Lane. We have information in the Commission that there has been discrimination against their lumber, and that they have not had the same number of cars as at any previous season. Mr. Slade. I do not think that lias been true on our line. I think our statistics show that they have loaded more lumber during this year than in previous years. Commissioner Lane. It is a matter of which you probably have knowledge that lumbermen of the Northwest are preparing now to present a case either before the Commission or before the courts against roads in the Northwest for lack of cars? Mr. Slade. Yes; I have heard of such a movement. Commissioner Lane. At any rate these cars that did not come over the Cascade could have come around loaded with lumber, and then they could have relieved the wheat situation — could have been brought Dack as empties to North Dakota and loaded with grain? Mr. Slade. Yes, su*; but instead of doing that — we were unable on account of this large business to move the business and the cars; many of them are still standing west of the Cascade Mountains. Commissioner Lane. How many cars have you got stationed west of the Cascades? Air. Slade. About 1,200. B. Doc. 333, 59-2 14 210 CAR SHORTAGE. Commissioner Lane. Loaded ? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. How many unloaded cars? Mr. Slade. In all, including the number which are in transit to Eoints to be loaded, approximately 115 or 120 cars a day — they are eing loaded there. Commissioner Lane. At the worst time, during that period of congestion out there, how many cars did you have tied up west of the Cascades? Mr. Slade. About the same number we have at the present time. Commissioner Lane. You could not get those around the Cascades in any way? Mr. Slade. No, sir. Commissioner Lane. If that situation had been cleared up, how much would it have tended to relieve the situation in North Dakota ? Mr. Slade. If that situation had been cleared up and we had had sufficient fuel of a proper quality on the western portion of our line, I think it would have made a very material difference here on the e.istorn end of the line in the matter of supplying equipment. Commissioner Lane. How many cars diet you say you had that belonged to other lines in excess of the cars they had that belonged to you? Mr. Slade. Approximately, 3,000, as shown by this statement. [Indicating]. Commissioner Lane. So you have more cars in excess of the number that other roads have of yours then — probably three times as many as are tied up west of the Cascades ? Mr. Slade. Over twice as many. Commissioner Lane. Over twice as many? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Now, then, you ought to be able to figure upon your own equipment in loading those cars? Mr. Slade. Oh, yes. Commissioner Lane. Then, having twice as many cars belonging to other lines, as you lose west of the Cascades, you still are not able to move your crop ? Mr. Slade. Yes; but of course the equipment that comes to us under load is foreign equipment and largely loaded with commodities which can not be transferred, and which go through to the far West. Commissioner Lane. Could not those cars then be used for these purposes ? Mr. Slade. The general custom — of course, as soon as our line was opened up in the Cascades we moved them as fast as we could. We have .been moving, approximately, the daily loadings, but we have not been gaining very much on the accumulation, so we still have that number of cars tliere. A number of cars in transit with commod- ities going to the Pacific coas', and those nmning east, makes that number of cars a dead loss — they are probably standing still. Commissioner Lane. Well, you don't give any preference to the traffic that moves from the Pacific coast as against traffic moving from North Dakota, do you ? Mr. Slade. No, sir; onh- to this extent, that we give preference to merchandise and high-<]i ss freight to the Pacific coast and to local GAB SHOBTAGB. 211 points on the line, and to North Dakota pomts over ordinary common ireight. Commissioner IjANE. Do you remember when this Commission held a hearing regarding the relation of grain elevators to railroads) Mr. Slade. I saw mention of it in the papers; yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Do you remember that testimony was given as to the congestion of the wheat business — the grain business along the line of your railroad at that time? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Commissioner IjANE. That was prior to the blizzard id North Dakota, was it not? Mr. Slade. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. What developed that condition, then, at the time of normal weather in North Dakota? Mr. SliVDE. The crop movement was somewhat peculiar this year. We had, at the opening of the crop — at the beginning of the crop movement, a very considerable number of empty cars standing idle. Those cars were standing on the tracks, where we expected they would be loaded with grain as soon as the grain commenced to move. They were moved to the grain-shipping points in anticipation of the grain movement. The grain came in quite rapidly. Weather conditions were such that threshing progressed without very much interruption on account of the usual damp rains, which did not occur this year in North Dakota, and the cars were loaded very, very quickly — faster, in fact, than we could transport them. The grain loaded on some of our divisions was probably, each day, twice the number of cars which that division could transport, under favorable conditions, simply for the reason that the cars had been accumulated, and naturally there would be some delay under those conditions to some of those ship- ments until the cars had begun to enter the terminals and become relieved and taken back out to the lines to be furnished in the usual course of the handling of the grain business. Some of those cars were delayed to an extent which called forth some criticism. Commissioner Lane. You heard the testimony here as to the many cars which are taken from twenty days upward to pass 250 miles? Mr. Slade. Yes; I have heard that testimony. I do not think Commissioner Lane. That you do not regard as a reasonable time? Mr. Slade. No, sir; I do not think there were any cars on our line moving from points within 200 miles of the terminal which were so delayed. Commissioner Lane. You do not think there were? Mr. Slade. There may have been isolated cars, but there was no general detention. The cars which were detained were those moving some 400 or 500 miles and were required to move through a congested territory, where, on account of our failure to secure the completion of another line we were handling a traffic in excess of the capacity of our line — far in excess of the capacity of the line, for the reason that we had already arranged over a year ago to complete another line to relieve that. Commissioner Lane. WTiat exceptional labor condition did you suffer under that all the other railroads did not suffer under? 212 CAB SHOBTAGB. Mr. Slade. Well, from my conversations with other railroad offi- cials, I should judge we are all suffering to about the same extent and in about the same way. Commissioner Lane. How many miles of road have you built ia the last year? Mr. Slade. The additional mileage now open for operation is less than 200. Conunissioner Lane. Less than 200 during the year? Mr. Slade. Now open, although there is some more mileage under construction and very nearly completed. Commissioner Lane. What would that amount to! Mr. Slade. That would amount to probably 200 miles more. Commissioner Lane. What is the total miles of your system ? Mr. Slade. The total mileage is approximately 6,000 miles. Commissioner Harlan. How much of that is double tracked ? Mr. Slade. We have, altogether, about 700 of double track, but throughout a great part of our territory, if you will examine the map, you mil find that instead of having double-track lines, we have second single-track lines. There is one part of the territory in the Red River VaSey where we have six parallel lines, giving us an opportunity to divide the through traffic between different routes. We have two main lines from St. Paul to the Red River Valley, one by way of Melrose and Bamsville and the other by way of Willmar and Breck- enridge. Commissioner HIarlan. Has there not been a similar congestion on each of those main lines ? Mr. Slade. No, sir; not on either of those lines. Commissioner Harlan. Would not those congestions at some of the points been relieved by second tracks ? Mr. Slade. The greatest relief would have been secured had we had in operation our line from Aneta to Devils Lake. I think that relief would have been valuable to the greatest possible extent this year. Mr. Begg. What effect had the drought in North Dakota on your water supply ? Mr. Slade. It has had a very serious effect upon our water supply, particularly upon one branch and one of our mam line divisions. Mr. Begg. And your failure to get cars over the Cascades has been due largely to the failure of the good coal supply ? Mr. Slade. That is largely the cause of our failure since the wash- outs to reduce the accumulation. Commissioner Lane. What is this bad coal you use? Mr. Slade. It is a coal mined along the Pacific coast, which is about half as efficient as the coal from the Crows Nest Pass. Commissioner Lane. Around Seattle ? Mr. Slade. That is coal mined on the Pacific coast, in the Pacific Coast Coal Company's mines. Commissioner Lane. That is the same kind of coal that the South- em Pacific uses, is it not? Mr. Slade. I think that the Southern Pacific is using oil largely, now. Commissioner Lane. Those coal mines were originally opened by the Southern Pacific ? Mr. Slade. I could not say. OAR SHOBTAOE. 213 Commissioner Lane. That coal in and around Seattle was the coal used by the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific west of the Cascades divisions for years? Mr. Slade. Yes; there are some of the better mines, some of the hifjher class fuel mines, but, owing to the great general demand for fuel in that territory, the miners have been very careless in the produc- tion of their coal and they have given us a good deal worse coal from the same mines than we had heretofore, and also there were some of the mines from which we had never taken coal, and the coal proved to be very unsatisfactory. Mr. Beoo. If you cut your freight trains in two — double the num- ber of trains — what effect would that have upcm the number of crews (employees) required? Would it make double the crews? Mr. Slade. rerhans not double the crews — yes; I think it would probably take double the number of train men — anyway, nearly double. Mr. Beoo. Do you think you could get twice as many men as you have now? Mr. Slade. I am certain we could not. Mr. Beoo. The hauling of heavy trains is necessary to get the traffic over the road? Mr. Slade. I do not think we haul heavy trains. Mr. Beoo. I mean hauling trains as heavy as you do. Mr. Slade. We are loading to-day in North Dakota trains of 17 or 18 cars, which is the limit of the capacitv of the locomotives under the present weather conditions, and I would not call those lai^e trains. Mr. Beoo. Then, your object is not to make tonnage — to move the traffic, that is what your object is? Mr. Slade. To move it to tiie best possible advantage. Mr. Marble. Do you mean just that, Mr. Slade — are we to under- stand that what is called the tonnage policy of the Hill roads is to move trafiic to the best possible advantage to the public? Mr. Slade. I have never seen any great difference between the policy of the Great Northern and other roads on which I have been employed with reference to the movement of tonnage. Mr. Marble. Is it true or not that a policy was invented or initiated in the Northwest of having as many ton miles as possible per train mile traveled and that you publish these results and are very proud of them, and that that policy is spreading from your road to other roads? Mr. Slade. That is true, but we always are careful to make good time with the freight business. Mr. Marble. Does the time made appear in those statistics? Mr. Slade. Always. Mr. Marble. You consider your engines are properly loaded? Mr. Slade. They are. I consider that they are as properly loaded as they can be. We have to rely upon the judj^ment of the local officials to load the engines properly under various weather con- ditions. Mr. Marble. Have you ever had such a thing as this: Running an engine loaded, perhaps heavily loaded, with another engine fol- lowing behind with no loads? Mr. Slade. I have heard of it being done. It is not done with the knowledge and consent of the olBcials. Sometimes, of course, it is 214 CAB SHORTAGE. necessary in order to equalize the passenger delays, to run a passenger engine empty over a division, and that engine might possibly pass a freight train heavily loaded in the same direction, but it was either to bring the passenger train in, and, naturally, they can not take the time to assist the other train. Mr. Marble. I am not talking about passenger engines. I am talking about freight engines. I am talking about those instances. Mr. Slade. That case might appear, but it is unusual, and they are not justified in doing it. Mr. Marble. Do you find a tendency to do this in order to keep from making a record of running light trains ? Mr. Slade. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You say that does not occur? Mr. Slade. No, sir; it does not occur. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not that sort of thing has occurred on other roads that attempt to furnish these records of a great number of ton mUes per train mUe ? Mr. Slade. I never heard of its being done on any road with which I have been connected. Mr. Marble. If you were a division superintendent, and you had two freight engines to move from one division to the other at the same time practically — as near together as they could go in safety — and you had a reasonably heavy load for one, or a very heavy load, would you divide it or give it all to one? Mr. Slade. I should divide it. Mr. Marble. You would advise them to divide it under those circumstances ? Mr. Slade. Those are the present instructions to superintendents, and such have been for years. Mr. Marble. Have you had trouble with accidents caused by men who had worked long hours ? Mr. Slade. I do not know as accidents could be attributed to the hours men had been on duty. We have had as many accidents with employees who have been on duty but a short time as we have hat! with employees who have been on duty a long time. Mr. Marble. Taking employees who perhaps had just gone to work on one trip, but who on the trip previous had worked long hours — I am asking you if you have had more accidents from men who might be called weary? Mr. Slade. Possibly, in a few very isolated cases. Mr. Marble. Not many? Mr. Slade. Not many; no. Some of the most serious accidents, due to infractions of rules and carelessness, which we have had, have occurred when the men have been proven to have had ample oppor- tunity for proper rest. Mr. Marble. That is all. Mr. Begg. Mr. Slade, what is the average freight-car movement per day on your road ? Mr. Slade. The miles per car per day for all classes of equipment in the month of October, the last month of which we have any record, were over 30 miles per car per day. Mr. Bego. How does that average compare with the average made by other roads? CAB SHORTAGE. 215 Mr. Slade. I only know of two roads. I know the figures for the Erie, which I saw for two years, and there I think they reached 20 miles for one month, and t&at we considered very, very good. Mr. Begg. Will you please explain what is meant when you speak of loading an engine according to its rating, and also explain how you get that rating, and then what it amounts to. Mr. Slade. Locomotives are usually purchased and are rated by the builders to haul a given tonnage on a given grade, under given conditions. After we receive the locomotive we make practical work- ing tests under the supervision of our mechanical and operating officers. Mr. Begg. What then? Mr. Slade. When they ascertain the result of this practical test, we give the engine a tonnage rating for the different grades to which that engine is apt to be assi»;ned, and the ratings are printed on our time tables — are placed in the possession of all of our yard masters, conductors, and other employees engaged in the movement of trains; and the rating shown on these tables is given the locomotives except when, on account of peculiar weather, the traffic conditions are such that it becomes necessary to decrease the tonnage. Mr. Begg. Now, if tHere is any temporary defect or something that renders that engine incapable of handling, easily, its rated ton- nage, is not that taken into account by the local authorities in loading? Mr. Slade. Oh, certainly; but of course it is never our intention to have an engine leave the roundhouse at a division terminal to make a trip not in condition to handle its tonnage. We have employed at these terminals forces of skilled mechanics to make repairs there, and they are provided with proper tools for making them, and it is absolutely against the rules to permit an engine to leave the round- house which is not in condition to handle the tonnage to the next terminal. Mr. Begg. The actual loading of these engines is left to the division superintendent and train dispatcher? Air. Slade. The actual load which they will haul under conditions obtaining at the time is determined by the local officers. Mr. Begg. The engine is ordinarily loaded in the direction in which the traffic prevails ? Mr. Slade. Certainly; yes. Mr Begg. You are not anxious to load engines coming back where the traffic — in the direction in which the traffic is lighter. You sim- ply divide up the traffic among the engines ? Mr. Slade. That is it, exactly. Mr. Begg. You do not run engines over the road light 8imj)ly to increase the tonnage? Mr. Slade. No, indeed. Mr. Begg. In the case Mr. Marble had in mind, then, that don't exist? Mr. Slade. No; that is not being done. Mr. Marble. Just one question. You spoke of the time made by equipment of all classes. Just what do you include in that? Mr. Slade. I include box cars, coal cars, flat cars, foreign cars of all classes, ore cars — all the freight equipment moved over our lines. Mr. Marble. Have you any statistics showing the movement of box cars engaged in the hauling of dead freight? 216 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Slade. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You have not that separately? Mr Slade. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Your Oriental trains are trains which run almost on passenger time and would be included ? Mr. Slade. The cars move in those trains and, of course, are included in them. Mr. Marble. And also ore cars, which are comparatively slow — all of them? Mr. Slade. It shows all classes of equipment. Mr. Begq. Oriental trains do not make passenger time, do they? Mr. Slade. No; twelve and a half miles an hour. Mr. Marble. We find some trains in here running 25 miles an hour. Mr. Slade. That is frequently necessary in order to maintain this 12 i mile an hour schedule. Mr. Marble. That is the reason I spoke of passenger time. Mr. Begq. What is passenger time? Mr. Slade. Thirty and a half miles an hour from St. Paul to Superior. Commissioner Lane. What is the usual freight schedule from Grand Forks to Duluth? Mr. Slade. The best freight schedule in the opposite direction — we have no fast freights eastbound, because there is no high-class traffic moved in that direction — as the best freight moving in that direction makes an average of about 14 miles an hour from Superior to Grand Forks. Commissioner Lane. Going eastward now, dead freight trains, what is the schedule time? Mr. Slade. We have no train scheduled, except our way freight or slowest trains. No scheduled freight trains. Conunissioner Lane. What is your slowest train — what would be that time? Mr. Slade. About 10 miles an hour — the slowest schedule train. Commissioner Lane. They have been known to make less? Mr. Slade. Oh, yes, sir; mdeed. Mr. Begg. You don't include in that average the car movement of passenger cars? Mr. Slade. None whatever, of course. Mr. Begg. That is all. Commissioner Lane. That is all, Mr. Slade. (The witness was excused.) H. J. Horn, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. You reside in St. Paul? Mr. Horn. Yes, ^'r. Mr. Marble. Aiid you are general manager of the Northern Pacific Railway Company, are you? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How many miles of road has your system? Mr. Horn. We have 5,400 miles. Mr. Marble. Fifty-four hundred ? Mr. Horn. Yes, su-; 5,400 imder my jurisdiction. CAB SHORTAGE. 217 Mr. Mabble. How many locomotives have yout Mr. Horn. We have something over 1,000. Mr. Mabble. How many over 1,000? Mr. Horn. I would like to give you the exact figures, if you will permit me. Mr. Marble. Certainly. Mr. Horn. Our exact figure, December 3, shows 1,060 engines. Mr. Marble. And the miles of road — have you that exactly before you? Mr. Horn. I have not got the miles of road exactly. Mr. Marble. Have you the figures for the number of freight care of all classes? Mr. Horn. Yes. The engines on our annual report — these are annual report figures — ^were 1 ,005 in 1 906. Mr. Marble. And that was up to Mr. HoBN. June 30. Mr. Mabble. That has increased since then ? Mr. HoBN. Yes, sir; increased since then. We have received, oh, about 70 engines since then. Mr. Marble. Now, the freight equipment. Mr. Horn. We had 36,097 cars in 1906 — June 30. Mr. Marble. Have you increased that since then ? Mr. Horn. Yes; that has come in after possibly 1,500 cars since then. Mr. Marble. Your increase, then, since June 30, has it or not been greater than the increase in previous years — the year previous to June 30? Mr. Horn. Our cars compared with the previous year — 1905 — I will read from our annual report, if it pleases you. In 1901 we had a little over 26,000 cars; in 1905 we had 35,135 cars; in 1906 we had 36,097 cars. Well, now, if you put that on a capacity basis and call the number of cars — put that on a capacity basis— call the number of cars in 1901 100 per cent of our capacity of cars — the following is the capacitv of our freight cars in 1901 : One hundred per cent in 1901 ; 122 per cent in 1902; 130^ per cent in 1903; 132 per cent in 1904; 15U per cent in 1905; 163 per cent in 1906. If we Keep up the gait that is ordered — get the cars ordered for 1907 we will have a capacity in 1907 of about 250 per cent as com- pared with 1901. Mr. Marble. You show the cars since June 1 ? Mr. Horn. I misquoted. I thought 250 per dent; it is about 240 per cent; something like that that we will get. Mr. Marble. We are concerned more with the number of cars and tonnage — the number of cars has increased since this report? Mr. HoBN. Yes, sir. Mr. Mabble. About 1,500? Mr. HoBN. I should say so. Mr. Marble. From the report I make it an increase of 962 in the year previous. Mr. Horn, Nine hundred and sixty-two is correct, as given by the annual figures. Mr. Marble. That is the increase for the year previous. Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. 218 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. How many of your cars are off your line? Mr. Horn. We have, I "think, abctit 10,000 off our line. If you will wait a minute I will get the figures. (Mr. Horn looks for papers.) We have off our line 9,000 cars (referring to paper). Mr. Marble. On what date? Mr. Horn. I have not got the date here. It was probably the first week of December. Somewhere in there; about the first week in December. Mr. Marble. And how many foreign cars have you on your line? Mr. Horn. Fourteen thousand and seven cars. Mr. Marble. On what date. Mr. Horn. The same date, this year — made for the same date. I have not the car service. [Mr. Marble hands paper to witness, who takes it and looks it over and hands it back to ^Jj. Marble.] Mr. Marble. Tliev are correct, are they ? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. May I read them? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. (Mr. Marble reads paper as follows) : Northern Pacific cars on forei^ lines August 28 8, 512 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific line August 28 14, 007 September 11, Northern Pacific cars on foreign lines ". 8, 796 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific 13, 739 September 25, Northern Pacific cars on foreign lines 8. 251 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific line 14, 413 October 9, Northern Pacific cars on foreign lines 8, 430 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific line 14, 188 And so it reads on down to the last figure. October 30, Northern Pacific cars on foreign lines 9, 159 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific line 14, 929 November 6, Northern Pacific cars on foreign lines 9. 285 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific line 14, 942 November 13, Northern Pacific cars on foreign lines 9, 576 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific line 15, 602 November 20, Northern Pacific cars on foreign lines 9, 838 Foreign cars on Northern Pacific lines 15, 957 I wiQ ask that that be marked as an exhibit. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1 — Horn.") Mr. Marble. Have you any remedy to suggest, Mr. Horn, to pre- vent car diversion? Mr. Horn. We are not complaining just now. Mr. Marble. Are your engines in good repair, do you consider? Mr. Horn. We consider them in first-rate repair; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know what percentage are in the repair shops? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. I would like to explain the way we keep track of our engines. However, I keep no track of the number of engines, but I do keep track of the number of driver weight — tons of driver weight in service; and our engines in back shop or round- houses being held for ten to twelve hours repairs — that counts as an ermine out of service. Mr. Marble. You do not keep them by number of engines at all? Mr. Horn. I have not, while I do keep it by pulling capacity. Mr. Marble. You say so many tons are under repairs? Mr. Horn. So many driver weight — that is, ability to pull cars. I count what is in the back shop, or in the roundhouse, being held CAR SHORTAGE. 219 for repairs, which runs from 16 to 18i or 19 per cent during the past two years. Mr. Marble. Do you call that extraordinary? Mr. Horn. No, sir. Those we think have been kept very close for the past two years — since Aujjust, 1904. Mr. Marble. Not extraorcGnary, as to that number — either large or small? Mr. Horn. No, sir. Mr. Marble. As to your en<:nnes not under repair — do you con- sider they are up to the standard of efficiency that you re(juire for your work? Mr. Horn. We are making with the engines in our service more miles per engine than most other roads in the country, from the figures I have seen. Of course, I have seen them from perhaps a dozen roads, and on the tons that the engine pulls during the month we are doing considerably better than most of the roads. Mr. Marble. You are doing better in miles and tonnage hauled? Mr. Horn. In tonnage; yes. Mr. Marble. How about your foreign cars, as to their mileage? Mr. Horn. Oar freight-car mileage lines up very well, I think. I will give you, if it please you, the figures we have made of foreign cars on the line and the figures of some other roads which they have made of foreign cars. These are cars that each road is supposed to try and get rid of, and these figures are for the year 1904. The Milwaukee made 19.3 miles per day. The Erie, 20.5 miles per day. The Great Northern, 43.8 miles per day. The Northern Pacific, 46.8 miles per day. Now, those are foreign freight cars for tne year 1904. For the year 1905 Mr. Marble (interrupting). Pardon me, a moment. How were those freight cars paid for to the owning roads ? Mr. Horn. The same as they were up to December 1st of this year. Mr. Marble. Per diem? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. For the year ending December 31, 1905, the average of all cars, whioh includes system's and foroign's — that is, all freight cars I am talking about now — on the Burlington, were 28.1 miles per day. The Erie, 20.8 miles per day. The Northern Pacific, 30.1 miles per day. Those are the only figures that we have been able to get from other roads to compare our work with on the miles per day. Mr. Marble. Do you think you are having more or less trouble than other roads at the present time ? Mr. Horn. Well, I thought we were having more trouble than other roads until I spent a week in Chicago in a general managers' meeting, and then I tnought we were getting along pretty well, when I heard the other fellows tell their trou we. Why, then we thought we were not so badly off after all. Mr. Marble. You were fairly contented? Mr. Horn. Not contented; no, sir. Mr. Marble. What class of traffic has increased this year? You would say, as Mr. Slade, that the increase of traffic is one of the rea- 220 CAR SHORTAGE. sons for this freight car failure — the failure of transportation facili- ties? Mr. Horn. Whj^, we have had heavy increases in all conunodities, and if you are talcing the net ton miles as the measure — that is, the amount of freight that is hauled — and if you will go back to 1901 as 100 per cent, our business in 1901 was 100 per cent. Percent. 1902 134 1903 15(5 19(M 157 1905 185 1906 219 You will see tliat it has a little more than doubled since 1901, and at t' e rate it is going now up to, I think it is, November 1 , it is about a 15 per cent increase in the business handled as compared with 1906. I am talking about fiscal years all the time. Mr. Marble. Between last year and this? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Increased about 15 per cent over last year? Mr. Horn. Over last year. Mr. Marble. Not 15 per cent over a small year like 1901 ? Mr. Horn. As compared with a small year, about 25 per cent. . Mr. Bunn. 1901 was a small year? Mr. Horn. We did not think so at the time. Mr. Bunn. Bigger than any previous year? Mr. Horn. As 1 remember the record year of ton mileage up to that time. Mr. Marble. In what year has it been greater? Mr. Horn. 1903 and 1904 were the same. There was only 5 per cent or 6 per cent of 1 per cent difference in 1903. Mr. Marble. Now, as between those years and last, what is tie tonnage that has increased? Mr. Horn. Well, the farm products, 30 per cent more. There was about the same movement of grain this year as last. The last time I took that I showed that there was a decrease of 4 or 5 per cent, something between those two. On merchandise we have run heavier. The coal from the head of the Lakes, during November, we had an increase of 50 per cent in the coal handled, based on cars. I have not the tons. Compared with the year before, in October the increase was possibly 35 per cent, but there has been a general increase right through. Mr. Marble. Does that mean that you discriminate against the grain, and that is the reason it decreased while other classes mcreased ? Mr. Horn. No; the reason we did not handle more grain was that we could not without taking empties away from the head of the Lakes, where we had loads going. That seemed quite as important as any- thing we had to move. We went over that question among ourselves a great many times as to what to do to improve the movement of grain. Not only this year, but last year we had a great many con- ferences, and studied it — picked out commodity by commodity, sometimes a little earlier in the season, and sometimes a Uttle later, and tried to see where we could let up on something, leave the freight behind, and take empties into the grain field, so as to help the grain movement out, and every time we did it we were forced to give it up. Mr. Marble. Forced to let the grain wait) GAB SHORTAGE. 221 Mr. Horn. Forced tx) let the grain wait. Mr. Marble. The fact that the grain was in noncompetitive ter- ritory and could not move except when you got ready to move it was not a factor in your considerations? Mr. Horn. I do not think it had a thing to do with it. In fact, in one or two instances when there was freight to move in competitive terri- tory, we purposely did not try to put cars. On the Seattle Division, where we have been, as you must know, in bad shape to move lumber, for a long time we purposely diverted cars into strictly noncompetitive territory, in the hopes that some of the other roads would get some of that business. There is an instance where we purposely avoided the competitive territory. Mr. Marble. What other roads were your competitors? Mr. Horn. The Great Northern and the Canadian Pacific railroads. Mr. BuNN. Union Pacific? M. . Horn. In a way, yes, sir. If they had furnished the cars they ought to have got the business. Mr. Marble. You have heard the statement, possibly, that com- petitive points in the wheat countrj were favored, as against non- competitive points, in the distribution of empty cars. Do you see that to be so from your standpoint? Mr. Horn. I have only been in the east during the last three sea- sons, but I do not think it is so. Some of the junction points are naturally good unloading points, and that furnishes cars, regardless of whether it is competitive or noncompetitive territory. Understand me, what I mean by unloading Mr. Marble. You mean freight comes into the junction town, and that you can take these cars and allow them to be loaded to be shipped out ? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir; that is what I mean by unloading points. Mr. Marble. And is there any other explanation at all of the fact that the elevators in the competitive town have been able to remain open to a greater degree than the elevators in the noncompetitive towns? Mr. Horn. That may be so, but in thousands of cases where — I have not been over the line this fall, but last year we found some com- petitive towns that had no cars at all, and in adjoining points, that were noncompetitive, they had cars. That I noticed fast fall. This year I have not been out over the line. Mr. Marble. Do you consider that your road is operating too economically? Mr. Horn. No. Mr. Marble. You would not spend more money if you had the say so? Mr. Horn. What do you mean by spending more money? Mr. Marble. Increased proportion of the operating expenses to gross income at any point. Mr. Horn. Whenever we see that we can do any good by simply increasing the operating expenses and improving the service, we do it. Mr. Marble. Even if you do not increase your profits, but you do it to increase the service to the public — would you consider that a warrant for increasing operating expenses? Mr. Horn. We certainly woiild. 222 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Are you prepared to suggest any point at which increases should be made ? Mr. Horn. I am bus^ making out a Hst which we make out every year, increasing operatmg expenses, and increasing facihties in serv- ice, and we have a very large amount of work under way now to improve facilities in service. Mr. Marble. Do you think conditions the next crop year are going to be better than conditions this crop year have been, the crop being the same ? Mr. Horn. It depends upon what success we have with our improvements. We had expected to have our Rices Point yard at Duluth fixed for the crop this year. That would have given us about Hi miles additional trackage, and made the yard much more effective. We missed it, but of course expect to have it ready for next year. At Staples in the last two years (that is our next big yard) we have, I would say, got double capacity in Staples to what we had two years ago — not in tracks, but in efficiency. In actual tracks we have got eight more yards, and at Fargo we are moving out of town and putting up a big yard at Dilworth, and if we have good luck completing that we will be in very good shape to handle the crop next year. If we fall down on labor, things will not be any better than they are. Mr. Marble. From your experience, and leaving out elements of luck, are you prepared to make a statement as to what the situation in this country is going to be from the first day of July next year to the first day of the following July, in the manner of moving freignt through this Northwest country? Mr. Horn. We expect it to be a great deal better than it has been for several years. Mr. Marble. Are you confident of that? Mr. Horn. Well, I would give long odds on that. Mr. Marble. The wheat crop this year seems to be about the same as last. If it is the same next year as this, you are confident it will be moved better than this year's has been? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Horn, the district in which this wheat is raised has been gradually moving westward, has it not ? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. So that the haul on wheat has increased something over previous years ? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir; we are getting wheat from north of Jamestown in larger quantities, and from west or Mandan. Mr. Marble. Do your connections, the Soo Line and Milwaukee Compaiw, give you an unexpected amount to haul to Duluth ? Mr. Horn. My recollection of the figures are something like 5,000 more cars this year than last. Mr. BuNN. What has been the effect of traffic by reason of our hav- ing loads to carry back in these cars when they were empty of wheat ? Mr. Horn.' It made our terminal at Duluth — it congested it a great deal more than it had been the year before. In 1905 we had trouble taking care of the crop the way it moved, and made this large expen- diture, increasing the track and equipment at Rice's Point Yard about forty per cent. Then, we have always been able to haul empties out. CAB SHORTAGE. 223 When we have an empty to move, as soon as made empty you can get it out and put it on any other train ; but these cars had to be placed before loading, because there was so much stuff going west that we could not get rid of it. We could not get rid or the haul, I mean; and that involved in a great many cases Mr. BuNN. Tliere was also the necessity of getting coal into North Dakota, of course, all the time, was there not? Mr. Horn. There was, and that involved several handlings, and made very slow movement, and made it hard on the yard force to get the cars out. Mr. BuNN. It is true, is it not, Mr. Horn, that a car of wheat at Duluth, and loaded back with coal or merchandise, that there are several handlings in the movement? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. The difference does not simply amount to one extra handling? Mr. Horn. Now, I have gone, over that with the fellows several times, and three or four handlings are necessary, they tell me. Mr. BuNN. Tell the commission why that is. Mr. Horn. Well, it may be unloaded on one pci-son's road, go to the terminal and get onto ours, and repeat the operation coming back. Mr. BuNN. Have you sent back any empties from Duluth west since the 1st of October? Mr. Horn. I looked that up the other day, and my recollection is that we sent but 39 empties west from the l!iake Superior to the Min- nesota division during November. Mr. BuNN. That is an entirely different proposition from what has been proven in previous years ? Mr. Horn. It is the first time, so Mr. Blanchard tells me, in twenty years. He has been connected with the road either as dispatcher or superintendent for twenty years, and he says this is the first year that he ever hauled empties west to the Minnesota division from the Lake Superior division. Conmiissioner Lane. The first year that he ever hauled empties west? Mr. Horn. I mean unable to haul empties west. Mr. BuNN. Failed to haul them? Mr. Horn. Yes. Mr. BuNN. What provision did you make for moving the North Dakota and Minnesota wheat bringing empty cars there before the crop commenced to move? Mr. Horn. During August we accumulated on the Dakota division something like 1,800 cars. Mr. BuNN. The Dakota division is the wheat field ? Mr. Horn. The Minnesota and St. Paul divisions have enough freight unloading at those wheat points to take care of the wheat crop. Mr. BuNN. How many cars dia you say you accumulated ? Mr. Horn. We had during August about 1,800 cars over what we had. I would say that gave us about 3,500 or 4,000 cars to start loading wheat with. Mr. Bunn. So that there would be empty cars where wheat is marketed in North Dakota? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Did any of those cars come from west of North Dakota? 224 CAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. HoRX. Yes, some of them came under load from the West — were made empty at those points and simply left there waiting for the Mr. BuNN. Did you not haul empties from Montana into the wheat country? Mr. Horn. I do not think we hauled them there during August, Mr. Bunn. There were parts of September that we hauled empties both ways into the grain field, and I can not answer just what wo did. Mr. Bunn. With 3,500 cars ready for wheat, when it came in, what happened ? Mr. Horn. They got ready very quickly and we were unable to move them without stopping other business. Mr. Bunn. Can you tell about how many cars a day you can move out of North Dakota loaded with wheat ? Mr. Horn. It depends upon what we are having to move in other lines, of course. Mr. Bunn. Take ordinary conditions? Mr. Horn. We can move over our main line, Dakota division, 350 or 400 loads in either direction. From the Minnesota division, we have moved some days as high as 700. The average is about 400. Mr. Bunn. Then you, apparently, had about all the cars you could move in ten days loaded? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir; at one time. Mr. Bunn. When did wheat commence coming into the market? Mr. Horn. I would say about the 15th of September, that these cars were pretty well loaded up. Mr. Bunn. "What has been the result of that Mr. Horn. In what way? Mr. Bunn. Making the car movement slow* Mr. Horn. Well, it made the average car movement very slow, because so many of the cars stood. Some of the time we had to stop taking stuff into Duluth. There was one time we suspended east bound toward Duluth which delayed the movement for forty-eight hours, something that I can not recall as having ever been forced upon us before. Mr. Bunn. What was the reason of that? Mr. Horn. Our terminal — could not get the stuff into our terminal. Mr. Bunn. And as a result of that there was not any use of moving stuff into there which could not be unloaded ? Mr. Horn. It made it that much harder to handle the stuff that was already there. Mr. Bunn. During October, was the condition — or during a part of October — was the condition one of congestion and comparative blockade from Duluth yard west to the Missouri River? Mr. Horn. Would you repeat that? Mr. Bunn. During the month of October, or any part of it, was the condition one of congestion, or partial blockade of the road, from Lake Superior to the Missouri River ? Mr. Horn. Yes; our terminals — district terminals — generally had 150 to 200 loads awaiting transit each day, and the principal reason for that was that we could not get rid of it at the other end. The blockade at the head of the lakes would be felt as far as Mandan very quickly. CAB SHORTAGE. 225 Mr. BuNN. And this congestion, rather than being one of car short- age, if I gather what you mean, is one of inadequate terminals and track facilities? Mr. Horn. Certainly. Mr. BuNN. How do you explain, Mr. Horn, cars standing at the station and being delayed in moving with grain, before they movel Mr. Horn. At an intermediate station? Mr. BuNN. At an intermediate station. ^ Mr. Horn. The train starts from its terminal and has got its ton- nage before it gets to some of these points, and that will hap{>en sometimes day after day. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Horn, do you load your engines too heavily? Mr. Horn. No, sir. Mr. BuNN. Tell the Commission how and on what principle they are loaded. Mr. Horn. If you take a grade, for instance, like a mountain grade, where there is absolutely nothing to overcome but just siniply the lift of the trains up these grades, we put our engineer, road fireman, our mechanic, ana our superintendent onto the first new engine of any particular type that comes on. We make tests at slow speeds and at higher speeds, and between them they decide what they can pull up the mountain. We give those engines an absolute tonnage rating, based on what they can go along with and make fair time. Mr. Bunn. What do you call fair time? Mr. Horn. On the mountain question? Mr. Bunn. No; generally on the road. Mr. Horn. Well, ascending a mountain, I call 8 miles first-class time. Mr. Bunn. What is fair average time over the roads? Mr. Horn. Ten miles an hour is what our schedule is built up on. Mr. Bunn. Is this rating you give an engine all it will haul, or all it will haul and make fair speed? Mr. Horn. All it will haul and make fair speed. Mr. Bunn. Now, what i>ercentage of that rating are your engines loaded on the average? Mr. Horn. The average? We are running about 75 per cent the last few months of our engine rating. Mr. Bunn. What was the effect, Mr. Horn, of decreasing the size of your trains and increasing the number? Mr. Horn. It would add very' much to our trouble on our main line which limits our business now. Mr. Bunn. What is the principal limit of business on your main line? Mr. Horn. On the main line it is the meeting and passing of trains. We have checked that up lately — the lavSt eighteen months — a number of times where things got hard, and tried to find out the remedv for some of our districts where trains are heavy — I mean thick. Why, where business is heavy half the time of the train between terminals is in meeting and passing trains. Mr. Bunn. What is the condition of your main line at Jamestown to Staples during this fall; was it practically being taxed to its capacitv ? Mr. fioRN. The business handled over the main line 8. Doc. 333. 59-2 15 226 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. BuNN. Well, take between Fargo and Staples. Mr. Horn. Between Far^o and Staples we handled, during Octo- ber, 450,000 net tons per mde of track for the month. That is what we call our density; that is, the number of tons that passed over 1 mile of track during the month, and that road at the beginning of the season, had 17 miles of double track from Wadena into Staples. We handled, in October, 450,000 net tons per mile of track. I looked over some of the other roads. The figures of the Burlington out of Chicago from Clyde to Galesburg, which is a double track, and in some parts has more than two tracks, no day during the past year have they gone very much over 400,000, 405,000, or 410,000 net tons per mile of track. Mr. BuNN. And you carried how many thousand net tons? Mr. Horn. Four hundred and fifty thousand. Mr. BuNN. How do you compare with the Erie and New York Central? Mr. Horn. The figures have been given me by Mr. Johnson, our assistant comptroller, and have been taken from our annual report. The Erie Railroad had a mileage of 2,151 miles; the net ton mileage or density for the year (the other figures I was giving you was for the months) were 2,943,863 tons. The New York Central had a mileage of 3,774 miles or a density of a little over 2,500,000 for the year. Now, if you were to compare that Minneapolis Division during October, with the average miles for the year of the Erie road, they had 2yV net ton miles for the year as compared with 5iV net ton miles, averaging October for the entire year. Commissioner Lane : That would not be a fair average ? Mr. Horn: It would not be a fair average. I compared the main line with what Mr. Bunn suggested. Mr. Bunn. Make that so I can get the comparison. Mr. Horn. The Erie Railroad — for the year — density would be 2.6, Minneapolis division would be 5.4. The New York Central would be 2.6, and the Minneapohs division would be 5.4. Those are relative. Mr. Bunn. You have got one track and these roads have two to four tracks? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. Bunn. In other words, if you take October, you are doing twice as much a business per mile as the Erie or as the New York Central? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir; very nearly. Two and six-tenths is 2.5 more. Mr. Bunn. That means necessarily that you have got plenty of money with which to make improvements? Mr. Horn. We ought to have, even after cutting rates. Mr. Bunn. Do you know any single track that has more dense traffic? Mr. Horn. I have not the figures. I have talked with some man- agers of roads running out of Chicago, and have only got the density that they have given me, but I have yet to find a road running out of Chicago that has handled more density than this Staples to Fargo. That IS the throat of our system; all our business pours right in over that throat. Mr. Bunn. You are comparing, when you say roads out of Chicago, you are comparing with double-track roads are you not ? CAB SHORTAGE. 227 Mr. HoBN. I think they are all double-track roads. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Horn, I should like to have you show the Commis- sioners what the Northern Pacific is doing to prepare itself to take care of tills business — what it has been doing for the past year. Now you have got a diagram here somewhere that shows that better than anything else. (Mr. Horn at this point laid before the Commissioners a certain profile map, which is hereby received in evidence, and marked ^'Exhibit No. 2" to Mr. Hom'^s testimony.) Mr. BuNN. That shows that better than anything else. Mr. HoBN. Startintj here [indicating] is Staples, Fargo, Mandan, Glendive, Billing, Livingston, the root of the mountain, Helena, which is at the foot of the Missoula Mountain, Spokane, Pasco, the Willamette River; and this is over the Cascade Mountain, into the sound, or Seattle. Now, starting with the west end, where the trouble has been this year, we have here — this line here is red, showing where we are build- ing additional track. Mr. BuNN. You mean double track? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir; I mean double track. These lines here [indicating] show where we are cutting down grades. Commissioner Lane. The red lines on the line of track? Mr. HoBN. The red line down here [indicating] on the base line, shows where we are double tracking the road. The red line of the profile shows where we are cutting down grades. Between Staples and Wadena, we put in a piece of double track 17 miles in 1904. We have cut those grades, which is a 1 per cent helper in here [indi- cating], and makes it very hard to handle our trains during the rush season, to get our helpers around. We are cutting that down to a three-tenths grade, so that we will have no helpers. We will have a double tracl:. This is the heaviest work I have ever seen; one fill has 4,000,000 vards in it. Mr. BuNN. What would be the grade of your new double track? Mr. Horn. The grade of our new double track will be three-tenths in either direction, and with the changes that we are making here [indicating] we will have from Mandan to the head of the Lakes, or from Mandan to the Twin Cities, a three-tenths grade for hauling the stuff East. Mr. BuNN. What effect is that going to have in enabling you to handle your bu.siness? Mr. Horn. We can handle, when thit is dFru8. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you brought with you correspondence and doc- uments showing delays in shipments of grain? Mr. Ix)ftus. I have. Mr. Marble. May we have those? Mr. Loftus. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have had trouble during this crop season in your business by reason of delays in transportation? Mr. Loftus. Yes, sir; considerable. Mr. Marble. More than in previous years? Mr. Loftus. An unusual amount. Mr. Marble. On what roads? Mr. Loftus. Principally on the northern road.s — Northern Pacific, Great Northern, and Soo. Mr. Marble. Do you know why that was — why the delay was? 254 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. LoFTFS. There has been a great many explanations offered for the delaj's on those Hnes, but I believe it is due largely to their suj>- posed economical methods of operation. I think the fact of the con- solidation of the two northern roads had much to do with the delays we have experienced in the past three or four years. Competition no longer exists in the northern territory reached Iby the Northern Pacific and Great Northern such as we enjoyed four or five years ago. The Soo road has been opening up a great deal of new territory, and I do not believe they have equipped themselves with sufficient cars and locomotives with which to handle the increased business made neces- sary by the new territory they have opened up. Mr. Marble. Now, if you will put this correspondence in — this is correspondence of the Royal Elevator Company? Mr. LoPTUS. This correspondence relates to a car load of oats, pur- chased on October 27, and sold on the same date; shipment made on December 8 by the Royal Elevator Company from North Dakota, on the Great N'orthem road, coming to Deer River. I called up the Great Northern road this morning and asked for a record on the car, and they said according to their last report it was still in North Dakota. (The above was marked "Exhibit No. 1 — Ix)ftus," for identification and afterwards with permission allowed to be retained by Mr. Loftus.) Mr. Marble (referring to paper). "Rolla, N. Dak., November 2, load of oats for Deer River." Mr. Loftus. At 10.30 this morning car had not been furnished for shipment. CPai>er referred to marked "Exhibit No. 2 — Loftus" for identifica- tion, and by permission allowed to be retained by Mr. Loftus.) Mr. Marble. And these papers? 3klr. Loftus. These papers relate to a car of oats ordered out of Campbell, Minn., on October 22, going to a point on the Great North- ern, and up to the 16th of this month the car had not been fm-nished, and the elevator company wrote and asked if we still wanted the ship- ment. The oats are on hand, and they are unable to get a car. Commissioner Lane. October 21? Mr. Loftus. October 22. (These papers were marked "Exhibit No. 3 — Loftus" for identifi- cation, and, by permission, allowed to be retained by Mr. Loftus.) Mr. Loftus. Here is a list of 16 cars that remained on the track at Duluth from November 12 to 23, for which this requisition was fur- nished on the 12th. The cars were not moved on the 22d, and on that date we filed complaint with the railroad and warehouse commis- sion, who investigated before I came here and reported, and soon thereafter, in the course of two or three days, the cars were removed to their respective destinations. (Papers referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 4 — ^Loftus" for iden- tification and made a part of this record.) Going over our car book I picked out cars on different roads in the last two months. I did not pick out particularly on the Northern Pacific, Great Northern, and Soo to show that the delay is experi- enced by all roads, but, as previously stated, delay is greater on the northern roads than on the southern. We received on December 1 car No. 67,342, containing corn from CAif %HORTAQB. 255 Beresford, S. Dak., which was loaded and billed out on November 16, and we have the shipping bill. Here is one on the Minneapolis and St. Louis, car shipped from Morton November 15, arrived November 20. (Papers referred to hereby marked "Exhibit No. 7 — Loftus" for identincation and made a part of this record.) In my judj^ment there is more delay to equipment in the terminal yards than there is in transit. I have a list of a number of cars that were delayed on the Chicago Great Western at South St. Paul. It takes anywhere from three days to ten days to set a car upon a track for unloading at South St. Paul after it arrives there. Here is a car that was ordered in South St. Paul for the Northern Pacific road on the 28th of November. The car was set for unloading; on December 17. The Union Stock Yards correspondence there gives the record and date of delivery of the car to the Western road. (Papers referred to marked "Exhibit No. 8 — Ijoftus," for identifi- cation, and with permission, were allowed to be retained.) I want to show that the delay rests with the Chicago Great Western, the delay I speak of in the St. Paul terminal. There is correspondence from a party at Geary, Minn., giving dates and telling how many weeks and months cars nave been delayed. (Correspondence was marked "Exhibit No. 9 — Loftus," for iden- tification, and made a part of this record.) Here is some correspondence from parties at Fulton, Minn. (The same were marked "Exhibit No. 10," for identification, and made a part of this record.) Here is correspondence passed between our office and the railroad commission relating to delays of different cars on different roads. (This corresponoence was marked "Exhibit No. 11 — Loftus," for identification, and made part of this record.) Here is a freight bill for a carload of hay, arrived in St. Paul on November 19. That was delivered three times to the Chicago, Bur- lington and Quincy Railroad for shipment, and each time returned to the Soo road on account of the car oeing in bad order. There was a fight between the inspectors of the two roads, as to the condition of the car and as to the responsibility of the line for the damage. The car was delivered the third time, and accepted by the Soo road and sent out on their line for shipment, and during the time it was switch- ing back and forth between the two roads five or six days elapsed. The Soo line informed us — in fact the agent of the Soo line told us — that it was necessary to blow out the pipes, and there was a question as to whether it was to be the delivering line or the receiving line — whether it was the duty of the delivering or receiving line to blow out the pipe. I just mention that. I just call your attention to that to show how the delays occurred in the terminal yards. I have prepared here two statements showing the numbers of about 25 cars. All of these were shipped about October 1 — between Octo- ber 1 and December 1 — showing the delay there in transit or at desti- nation in placing the cars upon the track where delivery could be effected, or at the industry for unloading, from one week to three weeks. That applies to cars upon different roads. I give date of shipment, the car number, date of arrival, and date cars were spotted for unloading. 256 OAB SH0BTA6S. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 12 — Loftus.") As to hay shipments, some of the roads have taken it upon them- selves to refuse to apply certain equipment on orders for nay. The correspondence I have here shows that we have been obliged* to wait for many weeks for cars, and I have here the correspondence in regard to some of it. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 13 — Loftus.") Here is another. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 14 — Loftus.") On November 13 we purchased a car of oats from the Imperial Elevator Company, whose headquarters are at Minneapolis. The car was loaded out on December 8, Great Northern car 16820, Bisbee, N. Dak., shipped to Deer River, 2klinn. Up to the 17th the car had not arrived at Deer River, and so the party there canceled the order, claiming they had to buy oats somewnere else. Mr. Mabble. What is the distance? Mr. Loftus. Approximately 275 or 300 miles, and I have the invoice there, the snipping receipt, and all the data. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 15— Loftus.") There is a contract for 710 tons of hay we purchased on September 17, at a point north of here about 150 miles. We sold the hav soon after it was purchased, for deUvery to the stock yards here at a highei price. By reason of our failure to secure cars for the hay we were obliged to go on the open market and buy hay at an increase of two and a half to three dollars per ton, with which to fill our sale to the stock yards. We are still Icokmg for the cars from that point. It is Chikio, a point 150 miles north of here on the Great Northern. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 16 — Loftus.") This relates to the car shortage at Ulen, Minn, [indicating]. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 17 — Loftus.") I have here some correspondence from a firm at Sturgeon Lake, Minn., a point on the Northern Pacific road — a copy of a report of one of the assistants of the State conmiission who investigated the complaint of Mr. Cunningham, of Sturgeon Lake — showing that they had to wait for many weeks to get cars for the shipment of wood to different points. Mr. Cunningham came to the city yesterday for the purpose of attending the mvestigation and for the purpose ofgiving testimony with reference to the car situation at his station. While in the Union Defwt at St. Paul yesterday I saw him talking with certain officials of the road upon w^tose tracks he is located and he was told that if he would go home that he would receive a sufficient number of cars SromptTy and that he would have no further cause for complaint. Ir. Cunningham told that to Mr. Mattimore, an attorney at St. Paul, and Mr. Mattimore called and told me that Mr. Cunningham went home and consequently was not able to come here and testify at this CAR SHORTAGE. 257 hearing. Mr. Marble was told he would be here yesterday and I am giving this in explanation of the facts. (The paper referred to above is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 18— Loftus.") Commissioner Lane. Was he under subpoena? Mr. Marble. Not under subpoena, but requested to come. Commissioner Lane. That is all. Mr. Beoo. Mr. Loftus, you spoke of a shipment of oats to Deer River, which took considerable time. On whose tracks was the elevator from which that shipment was made ? Mr. Loftus. Tlie Imperial Elevator Company made that ship- ment, and they are located on your tracks, \lr. Begg. I made that statement, assuming that to be the case. Mr. Beoo. Do you know that the shipment was ever delivered to the Great Northern road for transportation? Mr. Loftus. I presume likely it was. Your agent there issued a bill of lading for that traffic loaded out of the Imperial elevator. We have that letter there with the bill of lading attached. Mr. Bego. That is all. (The witness was excused.) A. H. Hawley, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. Mr. Hawley, where do you reside? Mr. Hawley. Davenport, Iowa. Mr. Marble. And you are in the employ of the Interstate Com- merce Commission? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. As a safety-appliance inspector? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you recently been engaged in this investiga- tion into the failure of transportation facilities? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. At what point did vou begin the investigation? Mr. Hawley. At Spokane, Wash. Mr. Marble. And you traveled from Spokane to Minneapolis? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Stopping from time to time? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Observing the conditions? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I'pon your arrival at Minneapolis you started back to the Northwest over what road ? Mr. Hawley. The Great Northern. Mr. Marble, And you came on the Great Northern? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How far west on the line did you go on the last trip? Mr. Hawley. Devils Lake, North Dakota. Mr. Marble. Then you returned to Minneapolis again? Mr. Hawley. I returned to Crookston, back to Grand Forks, and then on to Minneapolis. Mr. Marble. Your instructions were to, if possible, determine why freight did not move? S. Doc. 333, 0J>-2 17 258 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. TIawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you observe conditions generally? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you talk with train men) Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Railroad employees? Mr, Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. As far as you could, did you get the consensus of opinion of men operating the road? Mr. Hawley. Not particularly men operating the road, but mostly the employees who were — possibly who might be termed as operating men. Mr. Marble. The men running the trains? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You started at Spokane. Tell us (with the aid of your notes) — did you, from that point to this, notice that there was shortage of cars on the Great Northern ? Mr. Hawley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Of empty cars? Mr. Hawley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You think they have empty cars? Mr. Hawley. They are short of empty cars ? Mr. Marble. Short of empties? Mr. Hawley. There is a shortage of empty cars on the Great Northern. Mr. Marble. Did you see a great many loaded cars ? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Were the loaded cars moving? Mr. Hawley. Why, at the time I was looking at them they were not. They possibly might have been switched in the yard, but the movement appeared to be very slow on all of them. Mr. Marble. Now, you have notes here of the yard at Hillyard, Wash.? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Showing 167 loaded box cars, 5 empties, 1 stock car loaded, 10 empty, 2 coal cars loaded, 1 empty, 11 flat cars loaded, 8 empty, or a total of 205 cars in the yard ? Mr. Hawley. Those were all home cars and there were 160 foreign cars. I know of the yards at Spokane and the cars there. I was at Whitefish, Mont., but I did not count the cars at Whitefish. I was also at Glasgow, Minot, N. Dak. and Larimore. Mr. Marble. Can you tell us briefly the number of cars you saw at those points? Mr. Hawley. At Hillyard, Wash., 205 company cars and 160 foreign cars, or a total of 365 cars in the yard. There was a total of 41 empties, composed of 7 box, 10 stock, 16 coal, and 8 flat cars. Mr. Marble. Did you at that point investigate the length of time they had been standing there ? Mr. Hawley. I could not ascertain the length of time they had been standing there, but a gentleman there, whom I believe had some authority — I asked him how the trains were moving, and he said they were moving very slowly. I asked him," Why?" He said, "Because they had no motive power to move them." CAB SHORTAGE. 259 Mr. Marble. That was a man in the employ of the railroad) Mr. Hawley. Yes; sir. Mr. Marble. At Glasgow, Mont., did you investigate delays to locomotives ? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And this is a memorandum of that [indicating]) Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Tell us what those delays were — some of them. Commissioner Lane. I think that to commence, you should show first the days on which he was there, and then you failed to show that he was a railroad man. Mr. Marble. You have worked at railroad work before, have you not) Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Been in the emp'oy of the Commission how long) Mr. Hawley. Six years, nearly. Mr. Marble. And all that time you have been in the country observing conditions on the railroads) Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Through six years) Mr. Hawley. Yes, su*. Mr. Marble. You were not stationed in Washington) Mr. Hawley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Traveling constantly) Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. How long have you been a railroad man) Mr. Hawley. About sixteen years. Mr. Marble. On what date aid you start from Sp nkane)* Mr. Hawley. I was in the Hiilyard yard at Spokane yard on December 6. I was in Glasgow yard on December 8. I was in the Minot yard on December 9. I was in the Grand Forks yard on Decem- ber 10 and 15 — both dates. I was in the Larimore yard on December 10; Devils Lake on December 13; Crookston on December 14. Mr. Marble. Now, go to the delays to locomotives. How did you get this record of delayed locomotives? Mr. Hawley. I went into the roundhouse and copied from the records hanging up in the roundhouse, hanging up there public to any- body going in and taking the trouble to look over it. Mr. Marble. Is that record kept by the road to show delays to locomotives) Mr. Hawley. It is a record hung up there and there were probably 35 or 40 of them hanging there all fastened together. Mr. Marble. Those are railroad records? Mr. Hawley. It is hung up there and shows the delays to the Great Northern locomotives — hung up fhere for their advice. Mr. Marble. Is that kept by the railroad ) Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Tell us what delays you found on those slips. Mr. Hawley. I found on November 20 engine 1518 was eighty-two hours and twenty-five miuntes getting over tlie division. The delays were seventy-four hours and twenty-five minutes. These recoras don't show what caused these delays. Engine 1529 was thirty-five hours getting over the division and twenty-one hours and sixteen minutes delayed. 260 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. On what date i Mr. Hawley. The last one was on November 21. On December 6, engine 1536, thirty-three hours and fifty-five min- utes getting over the division; delay, eighteen hours and five minutes. December 6, engine 1514, time gettmg over the division, twenty- seven hours and fifty minutes; delay, fifteen hours and thirty minutes. December 5, engine 236, time twenty-seven hours and ten minutes; delaj'^, sixteen hours and twenty-five minutes. Engine 1516, December 3, time, twenty-one hours and twenty- five minutes; delay, nine hours. November 28, engine 1524, time, twenty-three hours and forty-five minutes; delay^, fifteen hours and forty-five minutes. Mr. Marble. Did you examine all of the slips there? Mr. Hawley. No, sir; I did not. Mr. Marble. What proportion did you examine ? Mr. Hawley. I just took them out as I came to them, turned one after another. I picked out one here and one there. Mr. Marble. Did you find all of the delayed engines? Iklr. Hawley. I do not suppose they were all there Mr. Ma-RBLE (interrupting). You did not examine them all? Mr. Hawley. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Did j'ou find stock cars waiting at Larimore, N, Dak. 1 Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How many? Mr. Hawley. One hundred and seventj'-four empty stock cars, sixty-five of which were double-deck stock cars. Mr. Marble. And you found stock waiting for shipment near there ? Mr. Hawley. I can not say near there that stock was waiting. A gentleman told me at Glasgow, Mont., that he had been waiting since October 29, in order to get sixty cars of sheep shipped, and up to that time — on December 8— -he had only received twenty-two stock cars in order that he might make the shipment. The gentleman informed me that at the hotel. Mr. Marble. How far is Larimore from Glasgow ? Mr. Hawley. I could not say iust how far it is. It is perhaps, I guess, 4C0 miles. Possibly it is a little more. Mr. Marble. Stock cars 400 miles from the sheep ? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. I also found a delay on a train— what they term a delay. The train crew was called to leave at 4.30 on the after- noon of the 12th of December, and they did not leave until after 9 a. m. the 13th. The crew was on duty all of this time, and then started in a blinding snowstorm for Minot, 115 miles distant. Mr. Marble. Do you know why that was? Mr. Hawley. I could not ascertain. They were about to pull out of the yard as I got down, and I asked a gentleman where they were foing and he told me they had been laying there since the afternoon, believe. I also believe it would be nothing more than justice to say that when the train did pull out of the yard there was very nearly a blizzard blowing at Devils Lake. Mr. Marble. That might have delaved the starting? Mr. Hawley. It might have delayed it the niglit before. I did not get there until after 12 o'clock. Mr. Marble. Does the fact that these trains were a long time in CAB SHORTAGE. 261 transit mean that the same train crew were workinjjj the number ol hours shown liere ? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. When you found a train eighty-two hours on the road, does that mean that the same train crew worked eighty-two hours at a stretch? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And this other train where they were on thirty-five hours, that train crew worked thirty-five hours at a stretch! Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And so on down? Mr. Hawley, Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. They don't run shifts? Mr. HA\n.EY. No, sir; not between division points. Mr. Marble. Did you talk with the men operating the trains as to the slowness of movement ? Mr. Hawley. Y'es, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you find them agreed that there was a slowness of movement? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir, Mr. Marble. Did you find them complaining of the ovartime that they were encountering? Mr. Hawley. Tliey complained that they were compelled to be on the road a great number of hours. Mr. Marble. Was that general ? Mr. Hawley. General with all of those with whom I talked. Mr. Marble. Did any of them give you their explanation of the slowne.ss of movement ? Mr. Hawley. It seemed to be the general consensus of opinion of all those with whom I talked that the trains were loaded too heavy ; they could not make speed enough whereby they could get over, and they were consequently delayea by meeting trains coming in the opposite direction. Mr. Marble. Did you find any cars delayed at any place that you were in that were delayed and had stood there? Mr. Hawley. Not at any place where I stopped. I learned of cars being delayed all the way along, especially at the sidings between Minot and Grand Forks. Mr. Marble. How did vou learn of those delays? Mr. Hawley. I learned of it through talking with people at the hot^l and my observation of the conditions at the side tracks as I passed along on the train. Mr. Marble. That is, you say, cars standing on the side tracks? Mr. Hawley. I saw cars standing on the side tracks; yes, sir. I believe, as 1 understood, that it was considered that there was con- gestion all along there on the district — cars which they were not able to move. Mr. Marble. You made a specialty of getting the information from trainmen as to the cau.ses of slowness or movement? Mr. Hawley. All of those with whom I had an opportunity to talk. Mr. Marble. How many did you talk with? Mr. Hawley. I would not attempt to say. Mr. Marble. About how many? Mr. Hawley. Oh, I possibly talked with ten or twelve crews. 262 CAR STTORTAGE. Mr. Marble. With ten or twelve crews? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Possibly there might have been one man I got hold of who might have been a conductor or a fireman, or I might have got hold of all three men of the crew and talked with them. Mr. Marble. Did you find a difference of opinion among the men as to the cause of the slowness of movement ? Mr. Hawley. There did not seem to be any difference of opinion. Mr. Marble. They all thought that if the trains were lighter they could go faster? Mr. Hawley. That seemed to be the consensus of opinion. Mr. Marble. Did you make an examination of the train sheets brought in here by various witnesses ? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And to what does this memorandum relate? Mr. Hawley. This memorandum refers to districts over which Mr. Philbin is superintendent, I believe, and the trains between Superior and Cass Lalce. Mr. Marble. The trains between Superior and Cass Lake? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you determined the running time of freight trains shown on those train sheets between Superior and Cass Lake? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Give us some that you found. Commissioner Lane. For what days? Mr. Marble. What days did you examine ? Mr. Hawley. I endeavored to find a day where there was a large number of trains on the train sheet, aside from the ore trains. I did not attempt in any way to check ore trains, and as I came to a sheet that had a large number of trains aside from ore trains, then I took that sheet and checked up the time to show how long they were getting over the road. There is October 23, 15, 31, 29, 27, 22, Novem- ber 29, 27, 20, 19, 16, and 6. Those were all througti the month of November and the first ones in October. It was a pretty hard task. I did not attempt to go into the next month. I used October and November and the sheets were there for other months, and I did not attempt to go into them. Mr. Marble. Did you pick for a sheet showing the slowest running time? Mr. Hawley. I simply picked up the sheets which had the greatest number of trains on. Sometimes I got fooled on that, because the train would not go clear through — all the way over the division. You would have to look over the train sheet to find that out. I simply picked out the train sheets where I found a large number of trains on them. Mr. Marble. Those perhaps showed a slow movement because of the large number of trams and meeting points? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir; possiblv. Mr. Marble. On those days what did you find the quickest time of any of those trains to be? Mr. Hawley. I found, as between Cass Lake and Superior, on October 23, that the quickest time was fourteen hours and forty minutes. On October 15 Mr. Marble. Just a minute. What was the slowest time on that day? OAB SHOBTAGB. 2G3 Mr. Hawley. The slowest time that they made that day was twenty-six hours. On October 15 the shortest time was eleven hours and fifty minutes, and the longest time was sixteen hours and fifteen minutes. Mr. Marble. The distance is 164 miles? Mr. Hawley. One hundred and sixty-four miles. Mr. Marble. Without stopping to read all of those, what did you fintl on those days the speed made by those trains to be — the aver- age — about how many miles an hour did those trains run? Mr. Hawley. Some of those trains were turned on different days. On October 23 there were six trains which averaged a little over nineteen hours over the division, or about 8§ miles per hour. Those are trains between Cass Lake and Superior. Commissioner Lane. Is that about the time they had very bad weather up there ? Mr. Hawley. I do not know. That was October 23. Commissioner Lane. October 23? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Conmiissioner Lane. That was before the blizzard, was it not? Mr. Hawley. Figuring the mileage made of the entire number of trains over the division, it would make eight trains which passed over on that day, averaging eighteen hours and forty-seven minutes over 145 miles, taking tne average number of miles for the number of trains moved, winch would have been eighteen hours and forty- seven minutes, over a 145-mile division. Mr. Marble. Now, as to the other days, can you state the average for all of those? Mr. Hawley. On October 15 there were seven trains, averaging fourteen hours and thirty-nine minutes in getting over 164 miles for that division. There were 9 trains on that day, averaging 13 hours and 54 minutes, over a little over 150 miles — averaging that number of miles for the entire number of trains on the division, during that day, and they run along — I think, one day, if I remember rightly, in my ngures, thev got down a little less — down very close to 13 hours going over the division. Mr. Marble. Some of them were much longer than that? Mr. Hawley. Some of them were much longer than that. Mr. Marble. But the average would be down to that? Mr. Hawley. Yes. Mr. Marble. Did you examine some delay reports from the North- em Pacific road ? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And what division were those sheets from? Mr. ILvwley. From the division points, Staples and F'argo. Tliose are the train-conductors' delay reports, showing the actual cause of the delays between the different stations from where they started to where they lay up their train. Mr. Marble. In getting the reports of the delays of the trains, how many of those did you examine? Mr. Hawley. I went through two or three months and I endeav- ored to examine every day, and, after I had been at it for a number of hours, I found the task was too long, and I simply picked out those at random for October and November, and it showed I picked out the actual delay and figured it up. 264 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Have you selected those showing the most or the least delays? Mr. Hawley. I picked those at random. I would turn to a sheet and take one and follow it out. Mr. Marble. Tell us what you found. Mr. Hawley. I found, on October 1, a train from Staples to Fargo fifteen hours and twenty minutes getting over the division. Two hours and a half of that was in making up the train. Four hours and forty minutes of the above track obstructions. One hour and thirty minutes meeting trains. Winnipeg to Staples, 83 miles, seventeen hours and forty-five minutes gettmg over* that distance ; one hour and forty-five minutes making up train; four hours and forty minutes waiting for orders — the total delaj' in that day was ten hours. I picked out several of those days in there and amongst them was one, Fargo to Staples, 108 miles, twenty-five hours and five minutes in getting over the division; meeting trains, six hours and fifteen minutes; waiting for bills, one hour and twenty minutes; waiting for orders, three hours and twenty minutes; waiting for helper, one hour and ten minutes; waiting for road engine, two hours and five minutes; miscellaneous, four hours and thirty minutes. Those are telegraphic reports which I picked out that was on account of their being blocked by trains and inability to do any work at the station, which caused them considerable delay. Mr. Marble. And those are of the same general character, about all of them? Mr. Hawley. This twenty-five hour and five minute train, the conductor has noted on the book, two hours and twenty minutes on account of engine not being able to handle the train ; two hours and fifty minutes by engine running for water and waiting for steam after coming back; thirty minutes reducing train; three hours and twenty minutes for orders; called for orders at 8.45 a. m. ; received same, 11.15, and got running orders, 12.20 p. m. — nearly four hours waiting for those orders. Here is one: Fargo to Staples, 108 miles, seven hours and twenty-five minutes; total delays, three hours and twenty- five minutes. Mr. Marble. The train actually ran about 25 miles an hour? Mr. Hawley. Here is one on November 3, eight hours and thirty minutes; total delays, four hours and thirty-five minutes. Here is one on November 22, ten hours and fifty-five minutes; total delays, six hours and five minutes. Mr. Marble. Going how many miles? Mr. Hawley. One hundred and eight. Mr. Marble. So that train was going about 25 miles an hour, when it traveled? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. This last testimony you give is taken from the docu- ments furnished by the railroad witnesses that have been called here and you have taken the sheets furnished by them and examined them? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all. Mr. BiTNN. Mr. Hawley, did you observe the double track under construction? CAR SHORTAGE. 265 Mr. Hawlet. I was not on the Northern Pacific at all. I simply took those records — have checked those records; that is all. 1 have not been over the Northern Pacific. Mr. BuNN. Where did you get the records? Mr. Hawley. They were brought in here by your train dispatcher. Mr. BuNN. Oh, I thought you went over the road. Mr. Hawley. No. Mr. BuNN. That is all. Mr, Marble. The testimony was simply taken from the train sheets? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all. Mr. Beqo. At the time you were in Spokane, did you learn of these serious washouts at the west end ? Mr. Hawley. I have not been out there for nearly three weeks — about that. Mr. Bego. Naturally the traffic was congested at Spokane? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Beog. And at all stations? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Beog. That might well account for the number of cars you saw in Spokane yard, might it not? Mr. Hawley. Oh, yes; I do not question that. Mr. Beog. At the various places you stopped that was what you you understood — you spent a day or less than a day at each place ? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Beog. You do not know just how long any car had been on the sidetrack? Mr. Hawley. I simply have hearsay to me. Mr. Bego. You simply saw that some cars were on the sidetrack at the time you passed? Mr. Hawley. The cars were there in the yards. I made an account of them. The only actual delay v hich I know of, or at least which I was told was positive of cars laying on the track, was some cars out at Niagara, N. Dak., and that information came to me from two or three traveling men, of cars laying there. Mr. Bego. You saw stock cars at Larimore? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Beog. You do not know whether the cars were there for imme- diate loading or not? Mr. Hawley. No, sir. I am speaking of double dock stock cars, of those in particular, because complaint was made to me by the gentleman or Gla-sgow that he had oeen unable to get double deck stock cars. Mr, Bego. For all you know the cars might have been on the way? Mr. Hawley. For all I know the cars might have been on the way. Mr. Bego. The enonne delays, which you took from the record, you would say that the sheet which showed a delay to the engine of eighty hours meant the crew on duty eighty hours? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir. Mr. Bego. Would that follow that the train was left there at the station and the crew went to bed for twelve hours, that they were still on duty? Mr. Hawley. I would not consider it that way. The engine crew would not be considered delayed if they laid up twelve hours. 266 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Begg. Yet they may have laid up at some station for twelve or more hours? Mr. Hawley. Then it would not appear as delay. If they had laid up it would not appear as delay? Mr. Begg. Why not? The engine had not completed its run until that number of hours? Mr. IIawley. Then, if they had done that, they would have started in on the next day and showed the delay from where they started. Mr. Begg. Why would they; don't it depend on the system in use on that road? Mr. Hawley. That delay would not appear for two days, where it had taken place on one, or at least if they were working. Mr. Begg. 1 want to call your attention to that, because as a mat- ter of fact that crew did lay up and go to bed. Mr. Hawley. Possibly they did. I would not say. Mr. Begg. You were in North Dakota during tne season of the blizzards, when the blizzards were raging? Mr. Hawley. I was in Devils Lake when there was a severe storm on the road. Mr. Begg. I presume you saw the effects of the blizzards when you came through — snowdrifts? Mr. Hawley. I did not see very many drifts until the recent snowstorm, within the past week. Mr. Begg. You came in from Crookston on your way back? Mr. Hawley. I came in from Devils Lake. Mr. Begg. You do not know whether the engine delays at Crook- ston were due to the blizzards, or what caused them? Mr. Hawley. No; I simply know that the gentleman told me that trains were delayed there because they had no engines to move them. Mr. Begg. Now, you say the train men told you the cars were delayed because they had no engines to move them, and also they told you if they would only load the train lighter they would move cars better? Mr. Hawley. I think you misunderstood me. I do not think I stated that the train men told me that. I said the train men told me the trains were delayed because they had no engines to move them. Mr. Begg. You say they told you they could move trains better if they loaded the engines lighter? Mr. Hawley. Yes, sir; I believe that is the consensus of opinion. Mr. Begg. In fact, if fifty trains were loaded with twenty cars, would not they only haul half as much as if they were loaded with forty? Mr. Hawley. I do not feel disposed to go into the discussion and consideration of that matter. I prefer to leave that to the operating officials. Mr. Begg. In checking over this train movement over the line which runs from Crookston into Duluth, you have a statement of the time consumed on train movement from Cass Lake to Superior. Have you noticed whether the tonnage had any effect upon the time made by the trains? Mr. Hawley. I did not go into it that far. Mr. Begg. You do not know anything about the lighter trains and that there? 'Mi. Hawley. That might have been the way; yes, sir. CAB SHORTAGE. 267 Mr.BEOG. That is all. Commissioner Lane. That is all. (The witness was excused. ) (The papers above referred to, in Mr. Ilawley's testimony, are received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1 — Hawley. ") Mr. Marble. I will call Mr. Winter. G. B. Winter, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. What is your name? Mr. Winter. G. B. Wmt^r. Mr. Marble. Where do you reside 1 Mr. Winter. Salt Lake City, Utah. Mr. Marble. And you are in the employ of the Interstate Com- merce Commission as a safety-appliance inspector, are you? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Mr, Marble. How long have you been employed? Mr. Winter. Nearly two years. Mr. Marble. And previous to that what was your employment? Mr. Winter. I was employed in the train service — a railroad man. Mr. Marble. How many years? Mr. Winter. I have had about ten years train experience. And, included in that experience, I was a fireman in yard work, and also a brakeman in different parts of the country on different roads. Mr. Marble. Did you recently find yourself transferred to this car- shortage investigation ? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. At what point? Mr. W^iXTER Spokane, Wash. And you came from Spokane, Wash., to this city on Mr. Marble. what road ? Mr. Winter. Mr. Marble. Mr. Winter. Mr. Marble. Mr. Winter. The Northern Pacific. Observing the conditions as well as you could ? Yes, sir. From this point you returned to what city? I went back over the Northern Pacific as far as James- town and again returned to Minneapolis. Mr. Marble. And like Mr. Hawley you talked with the train crews, as far as you could ? Mr, Winter. Yes, sir. With quite a number of them. Mr. Marble. And observed conditions? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Mr, Marble, Did you see many train crews? Mr, Winter, Quite a number. Mr. Marble. In your talk with those train crews, did you endeavor to get their idea of the causes of the slowness of the movement of freiffht? Mr, Winter. I made a special effort to do so. Mr. Marble. How many did you so talk with ? Mr, W^inter, I have not kept track of the crews, I should judge I talked with twenty different men who wore in the train service, including engineers, brakemen, conductors, and operating officials, such as yard masters, train masters, etc. 268 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr, Marble. Did you find them agreed as to the cause of the slow- ness of movejiient? Mr. Winter. There was a general idea. They all had practically the same idea with reference to the trouble. Mr. Marble. What did they say was the cause? Mr. Winter. Well, most generally it was that the trains were on the road too long. Mr. Marble. Why? Mr. Winter. The trains were too large. Mr. Marble. Too heavy? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. If they were made lighter that more freight would be moved ? Mr. Winter, That remark was not put in that way — if the trains were made lighter they could get over the road better — better time could be made. In that remark they did not say anything about the amount of tonnage to be liauled. Mr. Marble. Did you, at a certain point — at Jamestown — did you find a number of empties — box cars empty standing on the track ? Mr. Winter. There were about forty-three cars m one string. Mr. Marble. Large cars? Mr. Winter. Nearly all of them 80,000 capacity. Some of them, however, were 70,000; and one or two 60,000. Mr. Marble. You do not mean 70,000 ? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir; 70,000. Mr. Marble. They are large cars also? Mr. Winter. When they first came out I guess thej were called furniture cars. Now they are denominated large size box cars; 80,000 capacity. Mr. Marble. Did you learn from the marks how long the cars had been standing there ? Mr. Winter. I did; yes, sir; the cars showed the dates they were emptied Mr, Marble. And you say that was when? Mr. Winter. On the 15th day of December. Mr. Marble. Did you subpoena the train dispatcher to come over? Mr. Winter. I dia; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you asked him to bring the delay reports. Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you ask him to bring reports covering those two dates ? Mr. Winter. No ; I asked him to bring reports for the 10th and 15th of the month, to show that the cars were emptied at the time the mark was on the cars, and also the day that I saw them there, to show that the cars laid in the yards the time intervening. Mr. Marble. You called for another delay report than this one? Mr. Winter. I called for the date which shows the marks on the cars. I think I called for the 10th and 15th. Yes, sir; I wanted to show the 10th and 15th. Mr. Marble. You compared the numbei-s with yours? Mr. Winter. I checked the numbers of the cars. Mr. Marble. Did you find those cars had been standing there the length of time the marks indicated ? CAB SHORTAGE. 269 Mr. WiNTEE. Yes, sir; and some of them longer. The records show them there on the 10th and also on the 15th. Mr. Marble. And on these delay reports did you find the record there of freight delays — of loaded and em})ty cars in that yard? Mr. Winter. Quite a number. Mr. Marble. And these are the reports? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir; those reports were handed nic by the train dispatcher from Jamestown. Mr. Marble. Brought by him here in response to a subpoena? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. This check shows the cars on hand at Jamestown on December 1»5, giving the numbers of the cars and the contents, the kind, the length, capacity, date arrived at station, the destination, the total days at the station, as follows: Nine cars of coal standing two days, one car three days, a car of wheat four days, a loaded car which seemed to be building material eleven days, several cars of sand nine days. What are tnose next? Mr. Winter. A car of plaster. Mr. Marble. A car or plaster nine days, and so on— wheat nine days — and you dave summed up in this memorandum what you found on these two slips? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir; I checked them off generally. I did not have the necessary time to take each one. I just made a general average. They show for those dates on that. Mr. Marble. Tell us what you found as a summing up of that. Mr. Winter. The loaded cars at Jamestown, from the records, are shown: Flour in the yard, eight days; car of plows, in the car, four days; car of material, seventeen days; trucks, fourteen days; flour, thirteen days; flour, twelve days; pipe, eieht days; wheat, eight days; wheat, twenty-two days; wheat, fifteen aays; wheat, fourteen days; and wheat, four days. The empty cars for Jamestown show that they were delayed in the yard three days, six days, eleven days, nine days, six days, etc. There is quite a Uttle of the record here on that, if you want to go into detail about it. Mr. Marble. I do not think it is necessary to do that. You simply summed up what you found on those reports ? Mr. Winter. \ ou can check in anywhere there. There is one sev- enteen days. You can open the reports anywhere. Mr. Marble. You simplv opened them up at random? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Yhere is one six, there is one eight, there is one twelve, there is one two days, nine days, two days, eight days, two days, fifteen days. That is the way they go on the delayed list. Mr. Marble. Was there a blizzard at this time at that point? Mr. Winter. On the 15th of December we had quite a severe storm. I think it is proper to say that a few days prior to that I came from there — four or five days before — and I think they had considerable snow. I believe it was about the 10th. Mr. BuNN. It was pretty stormy up in North Dakota when you were there, was it not? Mr. Winter. Quite so. Mr. Bunn. Had been for some little time prior? Mr. Winter. I came over from Billings, and stopped along the line and it was very cold, and they had had some snow — quite a little snow. 270 OAR SHORTAGE. Mr. BuNN. When you spoke of a string of empty cars there, which were marked the 9th, and you saw them on the 15th? Mr. Winter. On the 15th; yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Do you know where thev were made empty, whether they were not made empty at some other station and had been just brought in ? Mr. Winter. I could not say as to that. The record shows they were empty on the 10th. I would judge they were made empty there. Mr. BuNN. Might not they have been made empty at some near by point and brought down there ? Mr. Winter. Possibly. Mr. BuNN. You do not know? Mr. Winter. I do not. Mr. BuNN. You have said the men expressed opinion that trains would go very much faster if they were lighter ? Mr. Winter. I believe that was the idea that they wanted to convey. Mr. BuNN. Did you form any opinion, or did these men express any opinion, that lighter trains would move more traffic? Mr. Winter. I do not believe that question was discussed; no, sir. Mr. Marble. Did you at a point near the beginning of your work at the west find certain mines in trouble for lack of cars? Mr. Winter. I did at Billings. Mr. Marble. At that point nearest to that did you find empty cars? Mr. Winter. At Billings, Mont. Mr. Marble. Where did you find the empty coal cars? Mr. Winter. At Billings, Mont. Mr. Marble. The mine and the cars were at the same point? Mr. Winter. The mines were near Billings on the road — on the Red Lodge Branch — some 75 miles from Billings, as near as I could get the information at the time. The cars were all at Billings. Mr. Marble. Did you talk with the owner or manager of that mine ? Mr. Winter. I talked with a member of the mining firm. Mr. Marble. What is his name ? . Mr. Winter. Mr. Yegen, of Yegen Brothers, and he informed me that he had notified the railroad companies on that day that if they did not get empties down he would have to shut down. That he had 80 men employed. Mr. Marble. Had they been standing there, and how long? Mr. Winter. I could not say as to that. I believe it would be well to explain there that there was quite a lot of beet service west of there ;^ that they were the drop-bottom cars, and they might have been used in the beet service. In fact some of them were loaded at that time in the yard with beets. Mr. Marble. Cars of the same sort and description? Mr. Winter. Cars of the same class. Mr. Marble. The cars might have been on the way to the beet men, but you do not know the length of time they had been standing there? Mr. Winter. I could not find out. Mr. BuNN. Mr. Winter, do you know where Yegen's mine is? Mr. Winter. I know only from what information I got at Billings. Mr. BiNN. Didn't they tell you it was not on the Northern Pacmc road at all? CAB SHORTAGE. 271 Mr. Winter. I believe that he mentioned that it was on a branch, and whether I understand now that that branch meant a branch of the Northern Pacific or not, I could not say. Mr. BuNN. Did he not also tell you that that road to hi.s mine had not been completed — that the cars could not get in there to it? Mr. Winter. No, sir; he did not. Mr. BuNN. He did not? Mr. Winter. No, sir. Mr. Bunn. You would not want to be understood as intimating that those are not the true facts? Mr. Winter. I do not understand, Mr. Bunn. Mr. Bunn. You do not mean to say that those are not the true facts? Mr. Winter. I am not going on the location of the mine at all. I know nothing, only what I got from them. Mr. Marble. ^ ou found the men complaining because the cars were not at the mines? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all. (The papers referred to above in Mr. Winter's testimony are received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1 — Winter.") The witness was excused. Mr. Bunn. I want to ask Mr. Horn one question. (Addressing witness:) Mr. Horn, do you know where Mr. Chris. Yegen's mine, is located ? Mr. Horn. That is on the Yellowstone Park Railroad. Mr. Bunn. And not on the Northern Pacific? Mr. Horn. No, sir. Mr. Bu-VN. Who owns the branch road it is on? Mr. Horn. A man by the name of F. A. Hall and associates. Mr. Bunn. What is tne comhlion at that point? Mr. Horn. It is just in what you might term semicompleted condition. Mr. Bunn. Are they hauling any traffic over it now — any coal traffic? Mr. Horn. They might have hauled, I would say, a couple of hun- dred cars. Mr. Marble. They can haul cars over it? Mr. Horn. They can, but it is not quite finished. Mr. Marble. Tney can take cars from you and deliver to you coal? Mr. Horn. Yes, sir. Mr. Bunn. When you have freight trains moving in one direction and light engines moving in the same direction, do you divide the traffic oetween all the engines or do you run part of the engines light and part of the trains heavy. Mr. Horn. We divide the traffic. Mr. Bunn. That is all, unless you want to ask some more questions. (The witness was excused.) I. B. Richards, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Richards is called at the request of Mr. Bunn, and I think I will leave the examination to him. Mr. Bunn. You are car accountant of the Northern Pacific Rail- way? 272 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Richards. Superintendent of car service. Mr. BuNN. I beg pardon. Mr. Richards. Superintendent of car service. Mr. BuNN. What are your duties? Mr. Richards. My duties are to superintend the distribution of cars, and to keep the records of them, and keep records of the com- modity loading, and other different statistics. Mr. BuNN. Give cars to different divisions and districts — thait is done under your direction? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Will you tell the Commission under what working prin- ciple you assign cars for distribution along the line ? Mr. Richards. We ascertain the amount of business offered in dif- ferent territories and prorate the equipment between those territories. Mr. BuNN. You prorate the equipments between the different divi- sions and districts? Mr. Richards. The divisions; yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Who subdivides it as between the consumers on each division? Mr. Richards. The superintendent distributes the equipment on his division as between the stations, and the local agent at each sta- tion prorates the equipment as between the customers at such station. Mr. BuNN, How would he furnish cars — divide them between the customers? Mr. Richards. On the basis of the business offered. Mr. BuNN. Equally and proportionately to the business offered? Mr. Richards. Except that if one man had a quantity of business to offer, and another a larger one, and we had three cars, we would give the small man one and the larger man two, but if we only had two cars we would give each shipper one car, if we had them. Mr. BuNN. You aim to give each one car, and over that in propor- tion to their shipments? Mr. Richards. Exactly so. Mr. BuNN. Do you know of any system by which empty cars are sold to anybody by the Northern Pacific ? Mr. Richards. I do not. Mr. BuNN. Would that be tolerated by the officers of the company? Mr. Richards. Not if it should be found out. It might be done, and we might be absolutely unable to detect it. Mr. BuNN. You have been in close touch with this question of car shortage this autumn? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. What do you think is the cause? Mr. Richards. We have been compelled to furnish more cars to the shippers than we could do with the power and facilities we had. Commissioner Lane. Are you short of power? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. We do not have enough motive power and we do not have enough facilities to promptly move all cars we have to furnish to the shippers. Mr. BuNN. Has there been a change in the loading of cars westward in previous years? Mr. Richards. In previous years we were able to move empties into the wheat fields to a greater extent than this year, and for that reason we could move more grain, but this year their conunodities — CAB SHORTAGE. 273 there has been an increase in other commodities to an extent which required us to load cars in both directions, which we have done, and that resulted in the slowing down of the movement. Mr. BuNN. What has been the result of that as producing a con- gestion ? Mr. Richards. It has had the efTex't — the fact we had more cars than we could move is, of course, the real reason for the congestion. Now, the reason for the delay — longer delay in movement of those — is due, of course, to loaded cars in both directions, taking time to load and handle at the same station on the movement this way and repeating the same on the other movement. Mr. BuNN. Where is the particular congestion — where has it been on the eastern division of the Northern Pacific road? Mr. Richards. At the head of the Lakes terminals. That, of course, backed up, and there is a congestion as far back as Dakota. Mr. BuNN. Has it been the condition during a large part of the fall that it was absolutely useless to haul cars into Duluth, because they would not be unloaded there if so hauled ? Mr. Richards. It has been a great part of the time; not all of the time. Mr. BuNN. A portion of it? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. What are the coal conditions on the Northern Pacific road according to your information to-day? Mr. Richards. There is some shortage at some of the points. Generally speaking, we have coal at most of the stations. Mr. BuNN. Have you made up a list of the conditions at each station? Mr. Richards. I saw one; I did not make it myself. Mr. BuNN. Where is it? Mr. Richards. I do not know where it is. Mr. BuNN. Are there in the ofiice of the Northern Pacific road dailv reports of the coal conditions, which are made every day ? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Are they made and in what office? Mr. Richards. Made in the superintendent's office and sent to our office. Mr. BuNN. And sent to your office ? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir; information for our own and other offices. Mr. BuNN. I won't spend much time on this. I would like to file this. They say in a general way that the condition is satisfactory at nine points out of ten. Commissioner Lane. That there is a sufficiency of coal at nine points out of ten? Mr. BuNN. Not a long supply, but sufficient for the time being at nina points out of ten. And I would Uke to have the same put in evidence. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1 — Richards.") Mr. BuNN. Tliat is in North Dakota and Minnesota? Both of those lists? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. You have no road rmining into South Dakota? S. Doo. 333, 50-2 18 274 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Richards. No, sir. Mr. BuNN. Now, will you please tell us how much wheat the Northern Pacific road has moved, as compared with last year? Mr. Richards. I have a statement here in per cents. Mr. BuNN. That is sufficient. Mr. Richards. From all grain points east of Mandan 2.5 decrease from last year? Mr. BuNN. Two and five-tenths? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Tell us what has been the increase in other commodi- ties? Mr. Richards. Coal increased 31 per cent; merchandise, 11.6 f)er cent; commodities, other than grain, 14.6 per cent. The total oading east of Mandan increased 10.2 per cent. Mr. BuNN. And the giain has decreased very slightly and all these other things increased quite largelj? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir; that is east of Mandan — east of the Missouri River. Mr. BuNN. Has construction been going on — double tracking down there ? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. Has that embarrassed the operation of the railroad to a certain extent ? Mr. Richards. To a certain extent; yes, sir. Mr. BuNN. A good many construction trains working there? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir; a good many engines. Mr. BuNN. What has been the condition of that track with respect' to being crowded with trains ? Mr. Richards. Very badly congested with trains. Mr. BuNN. Has the companjr, in your judgment, run all the trains it could over the track, and has it moved all the traffic possible ? Mr. Richards. I am sure of it, sir. Mr. BuNN. What would be the effect if they reduced — decreased the trains ? ISIr. Richards. It will still congest them, farther back into the grain-loading territory, and slow down the movement so that there would be more of these twenty and thirty day cars on the line than we have now. Mr. Marble. How would it have that effect — why would it have that effect? Mr. Richards. Because I think we would be able to make better time, possibly, but we could not handle as many loads. Mr. Marble. You do not think that an engine could get over the road enough more times to make up the difference ? Mr. Richards. No, sir; 1 do not think we can run them up to the time necessary to increase, and then you would increase the meeting points, and in my judgment it would offset any gain that might be realized in speed between the meeting points. Mr. Marble. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. Pennington this morning that when they had a surplus of tonnage he took a Uttle weight off the trains, eased the loading a little ? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir; to a certain extent. Mr. Marble. Lightening the tonnage does make a difference ? CAR SHORTAGE. 275 Mr. Richards. Yes, sir; to a certain extent, but to still further lighten it beyond what we do would make it impossible for us to move as many loads as we do now. Mr. aIarble. There is a limit for the lightening process, where it ceases to do good ? Mr. Richards. That is it exactly. Mr. Marble. And have you lightened engines up to that limit? Mr. Richards. We think we have. Mr. Marble. You think you have? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not think it is the policy of your road to run very heavy trains regardless of time? Mr. Richards. It is not. Mr. Marble. It is not? Mr. Richards. We keep the tonnage up in order to handle a great volume of business, for the reason that we have an obligation to the public to do that. Mr. Marble. Do you know how the dolivories of grain by your com- I)any to Duluth and Minneapolis this year compare with the business ast year? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir; I have a statement to show that. Mr. Marble. Did you deliver tiiis year as nuich as last? Mr. Richards. Into Duluth, I think, we delivered 1,600 more cars than last year. Mr. Marble. If you have it in busiiels, please give it to me. Mr. Richards. We do not keep it in bushels. Those are the cham- ber of commerce figures. I think they show a thousand bushels to a car. Mr. BuNN, Thev average about a thousand bushels to the car? Mr. Richards, '^hat is the way we figure it, Mr. Bunn. I am try- ing to get at the figures. The records show that on December 7, we had put into the head of the Lakes, 1 ,723 more cars of grain than for tne same period last year, and that dates from August 15, 1 think it is. Mr. Marble. Have you included in that deliveries made by you for the Soo railroad ? Mr. Richards. The movement of cars taken in by the Northern Pacific includes that delivered for the Soo Line. Mr. Marble. Into Duluth? Mr. Richards. Into Duluth ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And do you include that in your figures? Mr. Richards. In our system from the we^t. Mr. Marble. That includes the business of the vSoo road? Mr. Richards. Everything on the Northern Pacific naturally. Mr. Marble. If the ^oo had done even better, then, than it has, it would have enabled you to show still more remarkable figures for your road ? Mr. Richards. Of course, business when through via the Northern Pacific — they have to handle the cars that would be docked on the Duluth terminals. I have it for the other lines. Mr. Marble. Do you know as to the grain hauled out of North Dakota — have you ttiose figures? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir; I have it that way. Mr. Marble. The grain hauled out of North Dakota? 276 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. KiCHAKDS. For October and November, I have it. Mr, Marble. I would like that. Mr. BuNN. You mean by the Northern Pacific road? Mr. Marble. Yes, sir. Mr. RiCHARRS. I do not believe I have those figures here, but I can have them made. Mr. Marble. I will ask that you have those figures made up and sent to us, if it will not take too long a time. Mr. Richards. I will turn them in here to-ilay. Mr. BuNN. Better make up the figures and send them in. Mr. Marble. That will be all right. Mr. BuNN. You are an old train dispatcher, I presume. Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you, in ordering cars for competitive points, dis- criminate in favor of competitive points as against noncompeting points? Mr. Richards. We do not. We take special measures to prevent it. Mr. Marble. How do you explain the fact that competitive points are better supplied than noncomjetitive points? Mr. Richards. I do not know that that is a fact. Mr. Marble. The elevators, so the evidence shows, at competitive points seem to be able to keep open, and those at noncompeting points do not seem able to keep open. Mr. Richards. It is possible that other railroads have kept them open — certainly not the Northern Pacific. Mr. Marble. Perhaps other railroads have discriminated ? Mr. Richards. Possibly. Mr. BuNN. There might be more elevators at competing points? Mr. Richards. Yes, sir. They might be kept open for that rea- son. We have a plan which prevents that — a plan to prevent it. Mr. BuNN. That is all. (The witness was excused.) L. T. JamMe, recalled. Mr. Jamme. In case there may be any misapprehension as to the delays accruing at Minneapolis on account of the inspection and rein- spection on appeal in the grading of oats, in the methods of selling grain on this market, I will explain to the Commission our present method of handling grain here. Commissioner Lane. Could you make that very brief? Mr. Jamme. Yes, sir; I will try to. I do not think it will take over five minutes, Mr. Commissioner. At the present time samples are furnished either at Minneapolis or Willmar or Melrose or Staples. These samples are sent to the inspection here and inspection is made indoors. There was a time when the inspection and grading was done out in the car. At the present time we have changed and better results can be secured by inspecting indoors. The State of Minnesota has charge of the inspection, as you proba- bly understand, and this present method in the inspection, as a rule. on grain arriving by H.'M) here — the inspection is such that grain arriving at 8.30 is in the hands of the commission men early enough CAB SHORTAGE. 277 in the day so that the grain goes on the market and goes on sale on that day m the market. Now, then, if there is a call for reinspection on a car, it is done immediately, and if there is an apj>oal from the reinspection that is also done immediately, so that I might say that 90 per cent of the grain which is inspected or which arrives on this market for sale, if it is reinspected and appealed, that is performed on the same day before the market closes. Commissioner Lane. The whole period of inspection does not cover twenty-four hours? Mr. Jamme. No, sir. This morning I went over a number of cars there for one of the largest dealers here and then fhev called for a reinspection on a large number and later called for an appeal and had the result of the appeal by 11 o'clock. I doubt if any grain is earned over on that account. Mr. Bright. You are referrino; to the testinumy of Mr. Pennington? Mr. Jaaime. I do not know whose testimony it was. I understand the testimony Commissioner Harlan. My understanding of it was that that related to small dealers. Are there any men not on your board? Mr. Jamme. We have two classes of dealers — that is, men who are in the elevator business and those who are millers and actual con- sumers, and others buying on commission, and others who bid for particular cars and resell them afterwards. There are all clas.se^ of Duyers and I presume in all these markets there are tliose who buy grain to-day and expect to sell it to-morrow at an advance, but I believe that I am safe in saying that this year there has been less of that than any other time in the past, at least the statement was made to me b}' men who were in a position to know. Mr. BuNN. Your statement has no bearing on what Mr. Penninoj- ton stated of the difficulty of the manner of brokers owning grain m cars for the purpose of making a trade, has it? Mr. Jamme. I do not know whose testimony it was, Mr. Bunn, but I understood the statement was made that grain was held several days endeavoring to make disposition of it. Now, that possibly hap- pened in the past, Mr. Bunn. No; statement was made here, I understand, of grain held here several days awaiting inspection. Mr. Jamme. Oh, no; but the statement was made to me that there was considerable delay on account of the fact that reinspection went over several times, and I thought that it was fair to the business lie re that we should have that made clear. Mr. Marble. The testimony was, Mr. Jamme, that the railroads work seven days a week and thirty or thirty-one days a month, while the chamber of commerce closes up for Sundays and holidays and on those days delays are caused, and then they have to do the best they can, and that if they could keep the loaded cars all moving every day it would be much better. Mr. Bunn. I think that I understood Mr. Pennington's principal point to be that these brokers would insist on cars standing for them to find customers and to find a better market, one, two, three, four, five, six, and even seven days. Mr. Jamme. The facts are that possibly that condition has been true in the past. I will say right here that the chamber of commerce 278 CAR SHORTAGE. has aided the railroads this year as far as they could in doing away with that practice. You understand our conditions in Minneapo- lis — our demurrajje rules — and I believe they are more rigorous than they are in possibly any western city with the exception of Duluth. The chamber of commerce itself has done as much as possible to aid the railroads in the application of their demurrage rules to get prompt disposition of the cars as they arrive here. Mr. Marble. There has been some delay, then, in furnishing the railways with disposition orders for the cars? Mr. Jamme. At times there have been delays accruing where the commission houses have held the cars for a day or so, but I believe that at the present time that has been done away with to a very large extent. Commissioner Lane. That is all. (The witness was excused.) G. H. Emerson, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. What is your name? Mr. Emerson. G. H. Emerson. Mr. Marble. Where do you reside, Mr. Emerson! Mr. Emerson. St. Paul, Minn. Mr. Marble. And you are with what railroad ? Mr. Emerson. The Great Northern. Mr. Marble. In what capacity? Mr. Emerson. Superintendent of motive power. Mr. Marble. Superintendent of motive power? Mr. Emerson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Has the Great Northern enough engines? Mr. Emerson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You do not consider you are short of engines? Mr. Emerson. There has been a shortage, due to congestion in the yards and terminals, turning power, but it has not been general, by anv means. Mr. Marble, You mean that power got congested in the yards as well as cars ? Mr. Emerson. Largely on the road, meeting and passing trains and congestion in the yard. Mr. AlARBLE. If you had had more engines with the present termi- nals and sidings could you have done better? Mr. Emerson. No, sir. Mr. Marble. The trouble is not due to the engines? Mr. Emerson. Not due to the power, in my opinion. Mr. Marble. If you had had more cars with present facilities, could you have done better? Mr. Emerson. No, sir. Mr. Marble. The trouble was not due to the cars, then? Mr. Emerson. The trouble, in my opinion, is facilities. Mr. Marble. Other than engines and cars? Mr. Emerson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Your engines are in an eflBcient state, are they? Mr. Emerson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What percentage is in the hospital? CAR SHORTAGE. 279 Mr. Emerson. We have 6 per cent at the present time in the shops. Four weeks ago to-day we had 4. Mr. Marble, That* is all. Mr. BuNN. That is all. (The witness was excused.) H. M. CuRBY, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. What is your name? Mr. Curry. II. M. Curry. Mr. Marble. You are general master mechanic of the Northern Pacific Railroad? Mr. CiTRRY. General master mechanic of the Northern Pacific lines as far west as Billings, Mont. Mr. Marble. And you reside at St. Paul, Minn.? Mr. Curry. St. Paul, Minn. Mr. Marble. Have you enough locomotives in the work covered by you ? Mr. Curry. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You are short of power? Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Could you do better if you had more engines? Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How many have you under your jurisdiction? Mr. Curry. Four hundred and seventy-one. Mr. Marble. How many more would you say you need? Mr. Curry. I think we could use to very good advantage about fifty more engines in my territory. Mr. Marble. I presume you are ordering more engines — buying more? Mr. Curry. We are receiving them now. We have a delivery of thirty engines that are being set up as fast as they can be put together. Mr. Marble. Are you prepared to make a statement that in the territory covered by you tiiat when the busy time comes along about the 1st of July, or August, next year, that you wiU have enough engines ? Mr. Curry. That is rather a broad statement. Mr. Marble. You do not feel safe in making that prediction? Mr. Curry. Why, not if it keeps increasing as i* has. Mr. Marble. What proportion of the ireight offered can you handle ? Mr. Curry. I believe we will be in better shape on my territory with the engines now being delivered for the next vear than we were this, and those we expect to have delivered in time to handh* the crop. I believe we will be in better condition than we have been in several years prior to this time. Mr. Marble. Are vour engines in efRcient repair? Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Those that are working? Mr. Curry. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What per cent are in the hospital? Mr. Curry. I should judge about 8 or 10 per cent in the main shops. Mr. Marble. That is alL 280 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. BuNN. That is all. (Tiie witness was excused.) Commissioner Lane. Mr. Bunn, have you some witnesses you wish to call, or have you, Mr. Begg? Mr. Begg. I would like very much to have Mr. Hill called. Mr. Marble. He will be called. James De Veau, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. What is your name ? Mr. De Veau. James De Veau, Mr. Marble. You are in the grain business at this city and Duluth, are you not ? Mr. De Veau. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have had trouble with delayed shipments and have prepared a memorandum of these delays? Mr. De Veau. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. May we have it? Mr. De Veau. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. These statements have been prepared by Mr. De Veau at my request, dividing his business according to the railroads, showing the date of each shipment, the number of the car, the station of origm, the date of inspection, the date of unloading at Duluth, and in general character are like the statements of delay which we have had from others. (The same is received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1 — Mr. DeVeau.") Mr. Marble. Have you sent a man to Duluth to look up those cars? Mr. DeVeau. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And he went to the division superintendents of both roads inquiring for cars in the terminals? Mr. DeVeau. In the first place he went out and found out where shipments were and got in touch with the situation there. We had a great deal of trouble in getting the grain weighed there, looking after samples, and spotting cars, and they were not unloaded. There were several cars that we could not get delivered. Finally we sent a traveling man up there who was a railroad man, and he ran the cars down — found out the spot where the cars were, and then he went to the agent of the Great Northern at Superior, and started to tell him his woes, and the agent told him he did not have time to talk to him. But he came back at him and told him he would have to talk to him either to-day or to-morrow, and finally he listened to him. He told him he had cars that had been standing there several days, and the agent said it was no such thing. He afterwards got the paper, and the boy — the young man in the office — told him — he told him that those were the facts, and then he went to the agent again, and told him that he had better move those cars, and he said he would do the best he could to move those cars. It was impossible for us at the time to make a list here of those that have not been unloaded. Only a part of them are unloaded promptly. They lie there after they have been inspected from five to twenty days before going to the elevator, and Mr. Searles and Mr. Spencer and other elevator men CAR SHORTAGB. 281 said that there was not a day in the crop year when if the railroads had put the cars to the elevators that they would have been unable to unload them. They would have been able to handle every one in Duluth. Mr. Marble. That is all. Commissioner Lane. That is all. (The witness was excused.) Howard Elliott, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testi- fied as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Elhott, you reside where? Mr. Elliott. St. Paul. Mr. Marble. And you are president of the Northern Pacific Railroad ? Mr. Elliott. I am. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with the conditions out through North Dakota as they have been during this crop year? Mr. Elliott. Moderately so. Mr. Marble. And familiar with the steps taken by your road to relieve the situation, so far as it is concerned? Mr. Elliott. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you prepared to say that the conditions will be better for the next crop year than for this? Mr. Elliott. I think they will. Mr. Marble. You feel saJe in making that statement? Mr. Elliott. I do, Mr. Marble. What improvements do you count upon to make the change? Mr. Elliott. Well, take the Question of etjuipment first called for delivery during the year 1906. There are 6,200 cars called for deliv- ery in 1906, of wmch 2,180 have not been delivered. We have ordered 77 passenger- train cars, all of which have been delivered. We have 191 engines for 1906 delivery, of which 34 have not been delivered. The total purchases for this year amount to $8,700,000. Mr. Marble. How many engines? Mr. Elliott. One hundred and ninety-one. Mr. Marble. How many delivered ? Mr. Elliott. All but 34 have reached our rails. They are not all set up yet. We have ordered for 1907 6,700 freight cars, 165 loco- motives, and 110 passenger-train cars, at an estimated cost of $12,100,000. These deliveries are all promised prior to the Ist of July. We have now underway improvement, new work, including addi- tional railroads that are Duilaing between Portland and Spokane — double-track work and larger yards — which work we are crowding as hard as we can and much of which will be done by this time next year; some of that work will have to go over until 1908, but the total, counting equipment and so forth, win amount to about $74,400,000. We have had as high as 9,000 men on construction work this sum- mer, and we are trying to crowd the work if we can. If we succeed in getting our equipment delivered to us and in accomplishing the new work we have under way we believe that the situation will be better next season than it was this. 282 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. What do you find the life of an engine to be in the freight transportation service, in years? Mr. Elliott. I have known of engines in the service being in condition, good condition, twenty-five years. How long the bi^ modem engine will last remains to be seen, but if it is kept in good order and the fire box replaced from time to time, it ought to L st about twenty years. Mr. Marble. Is it your opinion that your engines that you are using now will last that long? Mr. Elliott. I think very likely. Mr. Marble. You are, then, increasing your supply considerably faster than the superannuation of engines? Mr. Elliott. I think so. Mr. Marble. Is it the policy of your roads to load the trains to make tonnage records ? Mr. Elliott. It is not. Mr. Marble. Regardless of time? Mr. Elliott. It is not. Mr. Marble. The pubUc is mistaken in thinking that is your poUcy ? Mr. Elliott. I do not know what the pubHc thinks. The policy of the Northern Pacific is to try to move the maximum amount of the commerce of the country with the facilities at its command. We think we can move more freight with 10 engines with 500 tons behind an engine than if we had 400. It is purely a question of trying to move the maximum amount of commerce offered between the head of the Lakes and Puget Sound, which is more than enough to go around at the present time. Mr. Marble. Is it your opinion that your railroad is effectively organized ? llr. Elliott. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And the different departments and services are working together for the best results ? Mr. Elliott. I think so. Mr. Marble. You don't think that the discipline is at all laxf Mr. Elliott. I do not. Mr. Marble. To what do you attribute the difficulties in trans- portation this fall ? Mr. Elliott. Well, you can run an unlimited amount of water through a 1-inch hose if you have got a place for it to go out at the other end. If there is nowhere for it to go at the other end, it will back and move verj^ slowly through the hose, and that is largely the condition on the Northern Pacific. Take it at Portland, Tacoma, Seattle, the head of the Lakes, with rails both ways, and whei/you have too much traffic, it chokes up at the interior division points. Mr. Marble. Don't you think that your road at Duluth snowed bad t'udgment in losing a portion of the terminal capacity about the )eginning of September, in trying to make repairs, just at the begin- ning of the busy season? Mr. Elliott. No, sir; those repairs were begun away last year, and we hoped to have them all in and done by the 1st of October. How- ever, one thing and another delayed us, and if you have been engao:ed in any sort of physical work — I do not mean manual labor — but OAB SHORTAGE. 283 enjraged in tiring: to enalize them, in the waj" you propose for failure to provide something in the future, and instead of doing good it seems to me you would do harm. It is entirely a different thing from penalizing a shipper for failure to handle a car promptly that is given to him, because ir he handles a given car promptly that helps the next shipper, and the next, and the next, and the railroad Mr. BuNN (interrupting). Do you put the penalty or demurrage on any car to the shipper for the purpose of making money or simply for the purpose of trying to get that car unloaded promptly, and pass it on to the next shipper? Mr, Elliott. Simply for the purpose of trying to get that car unloaded and pass it on to the next shipper; in other words, increas- ing the total number of cars of the company. You can not make the railroads buy equipment any faster than they are buying it to-day. They are doing everything they can to increase their facilities and get more cars. The car works, ever}' one of them, are taxed to death. It would simply be an arbitrary rule placed upon the railroads, and it would not do a bit of good. Commissioner Lane. Would you think it was fair if the railroads were penalized for taking an unreasonable length of time in the trans- GAB SHORTAGE. ^9 portation of a car ? Now, the ^eat body of the test imony we have here, for instance — I am illustrating by this — goes to show it takes ten days and often more to transport a car 250 miles from the point of origin to the point of destination. Suppose that the railroads were allowed a reasonable time, and then were penalized for delay beyond that, excepting where they could show that the delay was not their fault; would that be a fair kind of a rule? Mr. Elliott. It does not seem so to me; tio, sir. Commissioner Lane. The car is delivered, in that case, into your hands by the shipper. The objection that obtains in the other case does not obtain here. Mr. Elliott. If there could be shown neglect on the part of the railroads to provide for the future, possibly some spur of that sort would help, nut nearly every railroad in this country is doing every- thing it possibly can to increase its facilities. The railroads of tfie country are spending their money as fast as they can ^et labor and material, and to intioduce anotrier arbitrary restriction, it would simply, to my mind, make it still more difficult to move the com- merce of the country. That is what we want to do — move the max- imum amount of commerce. Commissioner Lane. We do not want to embarrass the railroads in any manner. I think that is the sentiment of the people of the countrv. They do not feel a desire in any way to embarrass the rail- roads, but are anxious that something should be done that might, if it was practicable, prompt the railroads to more prompt attention to their business as carriers; and it has been testified by Mr. Midgley, whose reports you know very well, that other methods should be devised by the railroads themselves for handling equipment they already have by which a considerable part of this car shortage could be avoided. If the railroads themselves have not developed their methods, the suggestion is that it is necessary to have some prompt- ing given them, some interest established, by which they will do it. Mr. Elliott. Mr. Commissioner, the greatest interest in that which can be suggested to the railroads is their own desire to get the maximum use out of their property. I think the railroads, and all other men are always anxious to get the best use that can be made Commissioner Lane. I am speaking of those who are Mr. Elliott (interrupting). When I say the best use, I mean to move the maximum of tonnage, which is the best use you can make of a railroad to move the commerce adjacent to its lines. We make some mistakes, and we are going to progress. I do not believe this reciprocal demurrage or this penalty for slow time would make the railroads work anv harder to try to improve the situation. That is my personal opinion. Commissioner Lane. That is all. Mr. Marble. Mr. Elliott, do you mean exactly what you say, when you say that the railroads are trying to move the greatest amount of tonnage? Mr. Elliott. The great amount of commerce of the country. Mr. Marble. Now, some people have the understanding that the railroads are trying to move the tonnage which will show the greatest amount of profit to the railroads, and that if an increase in facilities would be at the expense of profits, even though there might still rc- S. Doc. 333, 6&-2 19 290 OAR SHORTAGB main a fair profit, they do not make the increase, but leave their service at the point where it will give them the greatest possible profits. Is that understanding correct? Mr. Elliott. I do not know what some people think, but I do not think that. Mr. Marble. Do you increase your service to-day at the cost of cut- ting into your profits, or do you move tonnage in the way that it will show the greatest profits t>n the tonnage that you move ? Mr. Elliott. We do not pick and.'choose our'tonnage. We try to handle all that is offered. If there is too much offered to handle it all, we try to handle a proportion of every kind. Mr. Marble. Do you know any way, by increasing your expendi- tures somewhat, to move more tonnage and show a smaller profit to your road but a better service to the public ? Mr. Elliott. I do not. Mt. Marble. Did you mean to say that the railroad companies own all the coal properties in Montana? Mr. Elliott. Oh, no, not at all. Mr. Marble. There are coal mines there that they do not own? Mr. Elliott. There has been very little coal produced in Montana successfully, except by railroad companies, I am sorry to say. There is not a very large output from general mines. Mr. Marble. What is the matter with the general mines ? Mr. Elliott. I could not tell you. Mr. Marble. Have the railroads all the good coal land, then? Mr. Elliott. No. Mr. Marble. Have they all the coal land with transportation facili- ties? Mr. Elliott No. Mr. Marble. Are they the only ones that know how to mine coal ? Mr. Elliott. I do not know. There has been a good deal of diffi- culty with a number of public mines. What the reasons are I do not know. Mr. Marble. The railroads do not own all the coal. Mr. Elliott. Oh, no. There is a very large amount of coal in Montana that can be opened up. Some of it has been withdrawn from entry, now, by order of the Government. There is a good deal there still, if investors choose to go in and open it up. Mr. BuNN. Do you not nnd that the sentiment in Montana, among the people, regardless of statements to the contrary, that the railroads have got to continue furnisliing them coal ? ^It. Elliott. There is a very strong feeling that way. We notified the trade generally in eastern Washington and Idaho, which gets its supply from our mines on the east slope of the Cascade Mountains, that the growth of the railroad business this year was so great that a very large proportion of our output would have to be taken for locomotive fuel, and we asked those people to try and get a good coal elsewhere; we gave them that notice about the 10th of June, and in spite of that they have had great difficulty in getting coal elsewhere, and we have gong on furnishing to them to the best of our ability from our own mines, although at times it has caused us to be very short of engine coal, because the growth of our business has been so great between Puget Sound and Spokane. They would like to have us go on and open more mines and supply them with coal. OAB SHOETAGB. 291 Commissioner Lane. There is not any discouragement that any- one suffers in opening up a mine on the line of your railroad similar to the discouragements that we developed in the hearings in regard to the Union Pacific, is there ? Mr. Elliott. I have not followed the testimony in the Union Pacific case, Mr. Commissioner, but we have said to everj'one who talked coal to us that we would be more than pleased if they would open coal mines on our lines, and that we would give them a fair share oi cars. We wQuld, of course, have to supply our own mines with cars for engine fuel first, but after that we would give them cars for com- mercial trade just as liberally — give them cars just as freely as we could, and save our own coal for engine fuel, and a few mines are being opened up, but not many. Commissioner Lane. If you should go out of that commercial coal business, do you not think that it might prompt individuals to go along tlie line of your road and open up coal mmes ? Mr. Elliott. We hope so, and that is one of the reasons we are grad- ually withdrawing from the commercial trade, so that we can say to people ' ' We want to get out of this and we will leave the field to you, and would be pleased to have you take it." (The witness was excused.) James J. Hill, called as a witness, and, being duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Hill, you reside in St. Paul, Minn.? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are president of the Great Northern Railroad? Mr. Hnx. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you prepared to say now that the transportation situation along your railway, and particularly in North Dakota, will be more satis^ctory to the people during the next crop year than it has been this? Mr. Hill. Verv much more satisfactory; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You feel confident that you can make that statement and that promise ? Mr. Hill. I will give you what it is based upon. Mr. Marble. And that was what I was going to ask for. Upon what do you base that promise ? Mr. Hill. Where the traffic is the heaviest — I brought a small map. I do not want to cumber you, but I will show you right here, if I may. We started in last spring to build from a point called Aneta to Devils Lake. That would give an alternate line from Devils Lake to Minneapolis and St. Paul; it would be practically another railway, and nearly equal to a double track. We started in also to build a double track westward also from Devils Lake to Rugby Junction. Commissioner Harlan. What State is that in? Mr. Hill. North Dakota. Now, owing to the scarcity of labor and material, but principally labor, that was not finished; and while we have been pusning that line as hard as we could we only got to within 12 miles of Devils Lake. We expected to have it completed to Devils Lake on the Ist of September, before the crop movement, and it was not a difficult job, but the men were not to be had. Of course, when harvest comes, the railways expect the farmers to take the labor from the tracks or from the railway to take care 292 CAB SHOBTAGB. of their crops. For years we have made it a rule to cany all we can into the country as our workmen in the spring, expecting that the farmers will hire them away as quick as they get there, and it is neces- sary that they should. This year we employed as far as we could, and took a ^eat many Italians. We could not hold them, although we were paying $2 and $2.50 a day for Italian labor. We could not hold them and we could not complete that line and the double-track work. Now, we will have that line completed early in the spring. It is ballasted and ready for operation about to the end of the track. Then we will complete the double tracking from Devils Lake west to Rugby. That will take care of the additional movement. It ought to be equal, for that portion of the country, to tlu-eeorfour times our pres- ent capacity. On the double track it would four times. East of Devils Lake it would be three times the capacity that we now have. Then, as to .cars and equipment. We have provided a very large equipment, but the growth of this country has been such — and I would like to call the attention of the honorable Commission to this point — there is no place in the United States or in the history of this country where the growth has been as ^eat in twenty-five years as it has along the line of the Great Northern Railway, and I have got the figures here. Now, I want to go back. Take it in 1883, we carried 341,539,997 tons 1 mile; m 1888,— that is five-year periods— 562,531,432; 1893, 1,093,692,312; in 1898, 1,937,955,894; in 1903, 3,606,835,176. It has almost doubled from 1893 to 1903 — almost just about doubled. Now, in 1906 from 3,606,-835,176 to 4,933,530,997. Now, during the same period I will give the number of engines and the number of cars. From June 30, 1901, to June 30, 1902, we increased from 476 engines to 511, or 9.76 per cent. From June 30, 1902 to 1903, 35 engines, 18.04 per cent; from June 30, 1903, to June 30, 1904, 75 engines, 17.16 per cent; from 1904 to 1905 no new en- gines, for the simple reason that the traffic fell off about 2,000,000 tons owing to the crop failure. June 30, 1905 to 1906, 82 engines, 14.89 per cent; June 30, to December 1, 1906, 120 engines, or 21.37 per cent. That is the increase. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Hill, can you give me the fibres from 1898 to 1903 what percentage of increase was in your traction power, and from 1903 to 1906 what the percentage of increase was? Mr. Hill. The number would be 277. Commissioner Harlan. Are you speaking of the whole? Mr. Hill. From 1903 to 1906. Commissioner Harlan. Two hundred and seventy-seven? Mr. Hill. Would be the number, or about 14 per cent. Commissioner Harlan. Now, in that time, the number of your ton miles increased over 33 J per cent. Mr. Hill. The number of tons we moved — you can have the ton miles or the tons actually moved. I have got both. The actual tons moved 1 mile — I will give first one and then the other. In 1903, 16,148,673; 1904, 14,245,129; 1905, 17,535,789; 1906, 19,236,092. Now, the percentage of increase in 1903 was 21 .99 ; the decrease in 1904 was 1 1 .787 per cent; 1905, increase 23.10 per cent ; 1906, increase 9.69 per cent. Commissioner Hablan. You gave some figures originally which, as I understand it, were the number of tons carried 1 mile? OAB SHORTAGE. 293 Mr. Hill. I will give the number of tons. I have got them in the same statement. Commissioner Harlan. These are the figures: 1903, 3,006,000,000; 1906, 4,933,000,000. Mr. Hill. 1906, 4,933,530,000. Commissioner IIarlan. Now, then, is not your proportion of increase in the ton miles carried very much larger than your propor- tion of increase in your traction power? Mr. Hill. I will give it exactly. I think not. The engine power increase was about 14, and the tonnage increase average was 12, Jj. Commissioner Harlan. The tonnage increase average was 12t J^l Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. During what years? Mr. Hill. From 1903 to 1906, as far as we have gone in 1906. Now, the cars Commissioner Lane (interrupting). You mean that increase is not from year to vear, but from 1903 to 1906? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I have taken the average from 1903 to 1906. Conunissioner Lane. Well, you do not mean that the 14 per cent was an increase in the average traction power from year to year — ^you mean that that is an absolute increase? Mr. Hill. Well, it is an average increase; 14 per cent for that time. Commissioner IjANE. Fourteen per cent per year? Mr. Hill. Per year; yes, sir. And the other 12.06 per year growth of tonnage. Commissioner Lane. Do you mean 14 per cent per year means 77 locomotives? Mr. Hill. That will be 77. The statement is here in detaiL Commissioner Lane. You will file this statement? Mr. Hill. Yes, I brought this to file. Now, as to the cars: June 30, 1901, we had of freight cars, 23,217; on June 30, 1902, 25,217; added 2,000, with a capacity of 12.71. That is the capacity of the cars. June 30, 1902, to June 30, 1903, we added 3,482, a capacity, or increase in capacity, of 21.75 percent. June 30, 1903, to Jiine 30, 1904, we added 2,365 cars, with a capacity of 10.97 per cent increase; 1905 we added 503 cars, or 2.27 per cent. That is the year where there was a falling off of about 2,000,000 tons actual freight; 1905 we added 2,219 cars, or 10.41 per cent; 1905 to 1906, 5,897, or 27.49 per cent. Now, tonnage: In 1907 we have 150 locomotives ordered. Last year we had 95 new ones, but 5 of them were double locomotives, 300,000 pounds on the drivers, for use over heavy mountain grades; we have ordered 4,000 large capacity, 85,000 pounds capacity, box cars; one thousand 100,00()-pounds capacity ore cars, and we are placing a further order for an additional 1,000. Now, in doing that, with the additional track that is the equivalent of a second railroad from Devils Lake, a double track from there west covering the branch lines, some six or seven of them, we shall be in shape. We should have had it this year, if it had been possible to do it. We could not finish it. We could not get the men. Absolutely could not get them, or could not keep them. I think it is safe to say we carried out west this year 15,000 men, and never had at one time of that 1 5,000 over 3,000 or 4,000 at work. I do not think we ever had 294 CAB SHORTAGE. 4,000 at work at one time, and the difficulty of securing labor to do the work is a difficulty that this country has to meet. Commissioner Lane. Do vou think that that excuses the failure to move cars over two hundred and fifty miles in a shorter time, or less than fifteen days or twelve days or ten days? Mr, Hill. There is no excuse for not moving cars, Mr. Commissioner, if they can be moved. I suppose that almost 90 per cent of the cars move without delay, without unreasonable delay, to maybe five or ten per cent that are subject to unreasonable delay. Commissioner Lane. Well, Mr. Hill, your own men have testified here that it took ten days to take a freight train 250 miles, and that that was a reasonable time, passing through two division points? Mr. Hill. Now, I will take a year ago the 30th of June, when our business was not as heavy as it is now. Our average time from here to the coast on all classes of freight, 2,000 miles, was less than nine days — was less than nine days. Commissioner Harlan. What was the car movement per day? Mr. Hill. On the whole system? Commissioner Harlan. Yes. Mr. Hill. It has grown less every year. On one division, on the Mesaba, where we have control of the unloading ourselves, we get about from 75 to 80 miles a day. I think the whole system would average about 26 to 28 miles a day. Now we have ( I was going on to say) ordered locomotives and cars enough, if we have the facilities, if we can get rid of them at terminals ; I mean, when I say at terminals, at connecting roads. Each rail- road's business is not confined to itself. We load a car at some point on the Great Northern and it may be destined to New Orleans or New York. Take a car from the Pacific Coast with lumber; it might go to Portland, Maine, or Wilmington, Delaware. That is very common, and if we can not let our car go through, that man can not ship. He has got an order, and he complains that he does not get a car, and we let our cars go through. I know last year, about this time, I think it was — about the 12th of December — we were sending cars to a point in southern Illinois for coal for our own use, and they were loaded from Minnesota with flour as far as Chicago. Wlien they got to Chicago the coimecting lines there east of Chicago had no cars to which they could be transferred. They telegraphed back and recom- mended us and urged us to let our cars go through, and the other roads could get them back in less time than it would for one road to unload them in Chicago. We consented that they should go through, and in March, I think, between the 1 0th and 12th of March, or months afterwards, they had not got a hundred miles out of Chicago. I was getting some inside fittings and furniture for a house in New York the other day from Boston. It took so long that I told the man to sliip it by water; ship it around by the metropolitan steamer. He did, some of it, but he had some bedding — some mattresses. I left New York on Sunday, and on Saturday the man was down to the room to see me — I was confined to the room with a cold -and he said that the mattresses had left Boston on the 12th of November and had not reached New York on the 16th of December. Commissioner Lane. Now, as a shipper, Mr. Hill, what remedy would you suggest ? Mr. Hill. I have a suggestion. OAB 6H0BTAGE. 295 Commissioner Lane. We would be glad to hear it. Mr. Hill. I have the suggestion, but people muy differ. There is no subject that is of such cardinal importance as the one you are deal- ing with to-day. Every day, from now on until it is solved, its unpor- tauce will become greater and greater. The commerce of this country and its growth and its business is against a stone wall so high they can not see the top of it. No man can see the top of it to-day. I have looked everywliere; turned everywhere to see what can be done. Now, I undertake to say, and I base it on this: In 1870 we had 52,898 miles of railroad; in 1880 we had 93,671. We increased 40,773, or an annual increase of 7.7 per cent. From 1880 to 1890 increased 7.46 per cent. From 1890 to 1904 we increased 2.19 per cent. From 1904 to 1906 we have increased 2.8 per cent, or 1.4 per cent per annum. And during that time — your own Commission's figures show — that from 1895 to 1905, the business of the country, the tons moved, increased 10 per cent. The new miles increased 20 per cent in ten years, or 2 per cent per annum. But of that 20 per cent three-quarters of it was new mileage that was built in new sections of the country' that added to the congestion of the old. I have discussed this question with a number of the most intelligent railroad men that I know, have asked them how much additional mileage should be built to absolutely relieve the country from the situation, the situation it is laboring under, the unreasonable delay of freight — there will always be some delay — but unreasonable delay. They put the necessary mileage, some as high as 50 per cent. Well, that is out of the question. But, men who have taken the question and thought about it, and tried to work it out — they have made it anywhere from 25 to 33 per cent. Commissioner Lane. How will that mileage be used up? Mr. Hill. That will have to be used up practically all m additional tracks and yards. Commissioner Lane. Putting in double tracks? Mr. Hill. Double tracks, or 4 where there are 2. Now, at the present time, it is impossible, if anybody had a ship lying in New Vork Harbor, it would be impossible for him to get a contract to take 500 carloads from Chicago to New York in four or five weeks to load that ship. If a railroad did give such a contract, the chances are it would fail — ^fall down and be unable to deliver it. If 25 per cent of new mileage were to be built, most of it east of the Mississippi River, it would not any more than take care of the existing congestion and the growth. Now, 25 per cent of the new mileage would be 55,000 miles, and if that is to be built in four or five years it would take 11,000 miles a year; but, you would have to add one-third of the mileage for terminal and passing tracks. Peo- ple think that a double-track road does not need any passing tracks, nut when they undertake to operate double tracks without passing tracks they will find that they are in the same trouble that they are in when they try to run too many freight trains over a single track. The number of collisi(ms is greater. The number of collisions of passenger trains and the number of people killed to-day is because there is not mileage in the country over which to move the business. Add 33 per cent to 55,000 and it makes 78,333 miles. Inasmuch as most of this is main-track mileage, or second or additional tracks 296 CAB SHORTAGE. on other lines, before making it permanent heavy reductions in grades and curvatures on existing lines, would be necessary. Twenty or twenty-five years ago engineers thought if they could get a 1 per cent grade that that would be all right. That was a good railroad, 1 per cent. A 1 per cent railroad to-day is like a harbor in front of a city with a depth of 15 or 18 feet, when the depth of the channel ought to be 30 or 35 feet. It is exactly the same thing. It is just as important to tliis country that the railroads should be built with low grades and capacity to haul a load, as it is that a siiip should have capacity to bring a load. I have heard here — ^I have heard it talked a great deal about trying to prove that twice two is one. Now, there is only one way — and no man living can stand up and tell us anything else — there is only one way to handle this busmess, and that is to have low grades and to have the largest capacity for your cars and your engines. I will undertake — I will show some figures— let me show what we are up against. Now, 73,000 miles additional would be no more than is actually necessary, because I have distributed it over five years, and in five years, if we are to have any growth — if we do not stand still — the allowance is altogether too small. There must be added exten- sions to terminal yards, and a general increase of equipment and other facilities. I do not think the new mileage, the new equipment, terminal facilities, and so forth, could be produced for less than $75,000 a mile for main track, which would amount to $5,500,000,000, or a yearly average of $1,100,000,000. Now, that is what is necessary to move this stuff, to move the business of this country and it is not any more than is necessary. But it is 33 per cent or 44 per cent more than the cost of the civil war, and it is more money than the United States can raise ; and that is the stone wall we are up against, and foresight does not look forward to get a glance of it. We are up against that until it is solved; until that mileage is furnished this country will suffer and its business will not move. You can lead a horse to water ten times, but you can not make him drink once. You can not get any macliine that can bore an inch hole with a half-inch augur, and you can not drive this business through the present facilities, because there is not room enough, and it is getting worse for the reason that it has not room enough. It is more expensive to do the business. It costs the railroads more to do the business when they are moving everything beyond their capacity. The best economy is to have the equipment and facilities properly adjusted to the volume of business, ana then keep it moving in a harmonious and useful way. Anything else is wasteful. Conmiissioner Lane. Take your ow n pa rticular road, as to which these complaints have been made. What suggestion would you make as to the improvement of facilities upon that road ? Mr. Hill. Well, we are at work reducing grades and double track- ing. We reduced the grade between BrecKenridge and Minneapolis, this year, to four-tenths of 1 per cent — 21 feet to the mile. It was originally, when I took the road, 1} per cent. Now we have got it down to four-tenths per cent, and we have extended the double track in that direction. * The Northern and the Great Northern work twQ parallel lines between here and St. Cloud as a double track, and that helps. The Northern Pacific has a greater density of traffic CAB SHORTAGE. 297 than the Great Northern, a much older road ; but the Great Northern, notwithstanding its newness — the Great Northern Railroad — I have taken it and compared it with all the lines running in here. The Milwaukee and St. Paul — I remember the Milwaukee and St. Paul when 1 was a boy. They had three thousand live hundred or four thousand miles when we had not that many hundred miles, and we were following the Indians across the plains; but on 6,916 miles they move 4,663,808,007 ton miles, while on 5,906 miles we move 4,933,000,000 ton miles. In other words, their density of traffic as compared with ours is just 80 per cent. Now, they run in a much older and more densely populated country — to Chicago, Milwaukee, and out to Omaha, Kansas City, and so on. Now, the Ciiicago and Northwestern, with 7,428 miles — they have 125.77 per cent of our mileage — they move 104 per cent of our tonnage. The Chicago, Burlington and Quincy, with 8,896 miles, which is 150 per cent of our mueage, they moved 6,347,902,891, or 128 per cent of our tonnage. The Rock Island, with 122 per cent of mileage, moved 75 per cent of the tonnage. The Rock Island's density of traffic is just 61 per cent of that of the Great Northern. That is, the numoer of tons moved for 1 mile of each road. The Soo Line, with 34 per cent, moved 21 per cent, on practically 22.98 of the tonnage. The traffic — that is, the number of tons pro- duced for shipment 1 mile on each mile of road, averaged for the whole year 3,297,169 or 35 per cent of the Great Northern. Now, the Great Northern, with 5,906 miles, moved 4,933,000,000 tons 1 mile, a density of traffic of 835,287 tons. The Northern Pacific, with 5,401 — and I want to pay them the compliment of beating us — the Northern Pacific, with 5,401 miles, or 91 per cent, moved 106 per cent of tons per mile that the Great Northern moved. Their density of traffic is 971,000 ton miles, or 116 per cent of the Great Northern's, or 36 heavier than the Milwaukee and St. Paul. These are figures which can be figured, and they are not somebody's hearsay. These are the actual figures of what is being done, and the reports are filed under oath. Now, I want to call attention to a point here. The Milwaukee and St. Paul, while moving 94 per cent of the Great Northern's tonnage, ran 177.71 per cent of the train miles. The Chicago and Northwestern, to move 104 per cent, or 104.51, to be correct, of the Great Northern tonnage, moved 210, or practi- cally 211, per cent of the train service. They ran a train service equal to a freight train a day round the world for four hundred days in the year. Now, if you think that does not interfere with traffic, if you think that does not take any meeting points, if you think that facilitates business, to waste train service in that manner, take the reports and shake them up and see. They could not move our ton- nage, and they have got more double track — I should say 600 miles — and they have to bund more, and add more to the expense. We are building double tracks. We expect to sena in in the next two years — I hope we will be able to in two years and a half — and we have just raised $60,000,000, or about raismg $60,000,000 for addi- tional facilities, and to do our share of wha^ is necessary. 1 want to 29o CAB SHOKTAGE. have it so our road will not be behind when the condition of ab solute crash comes, because it will not be a panic; it will be a crash, if it can not be reheved. Men will not produce out of the ground; they will not till the soil, if they can not send their produce to market. I want to be able to get ours to market as far as we can. Commissioner Lane. The point of your statement is that the rail- roads of the country have not actually kept up with the growth of the country. Mr. Hill. Why, sir; they have not kept in sight of it. Commissioner Lane. Do not see the tail end of the wagon? Mr. Hill. No, sir; they have not got high enough to get a horizon- tal view of the question. Why, think of it. We have, from 1 908 to 1905 — we have added in the two years 1.4 per cent to our main line of railroad, and the Commission's report, wnich is made up from the statistics furnished by the railroads, as your honorable body knows, shows an increase in the ten years of over 110 per cent and 98 per cent in passenger business. Now, it is just as impossible to do that busi- ness, as it is to bore an inch hole with a half-inch auger, and the coun- try does not realize it, but they will and see what they have got to do and what they have got to face. I have not made a high estimate. I have taken the lowest that any intelligent railway manlias given me — 25 per cent — and that would be only 5 per cent a year for the next five years; and prior to 1890, we averaged from 7.4 to 7.7 per annum. But for the next five years we would average 5 per cent to make up for the lost way and to provide for the increase in the future. I came from New York. I got out of a sick bed to come here for the purpose of this opportunity to put it fairly before the people through this honorable Commission, to see where they stand, and I beg the Commission, wherever the meetings are held, to investigate along that line and see what the facilities are. I know one man said it was more cars he wanted. Good gracious, if he used his cars as we use ours, he would do 60 per cent more business than he is doing. I want to show some figures: I brought hastily some figures from the 1st of July to the end of October, inclusive, showing the density of traffic on the Great Northern Railway, and I may say that for the purpose of comparison I will take the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern. They have a double track, and they have a very level road, and they have increased their train loads from about 200 in ten years — from about 244 tons to the train— I am speaking from recol- lection entirely — from 240 to 600. They are now about up to 600, but they have increased their density of traffic tons moved one mile for each mile of road to 3,000,000 a year. The New York Central and Hudson River shows its 2,000,000 a year with four tracks. The Pennsylvania, the Pennsylvania, that is, from Pittsburg to Philadel- phia, they show 5,374,000. These figures are from Poor's Manual of capital statistics for 1906. On the Mesaba division, which runs from Cass Lake to the head of Lake Superior, 295 miles of road, in July, the Great Northern moved 498,126 ton miles, average for the whole division, or practi- cally 6,000,000 a year — more than the Pennsylvania runs from Pittsburg to Philadelphia. But in order to do that, let us see what we moved. We averaged 1,306.20 tons to the train, and there was no blockade. On the Superior division, running from here to I^ake Superior, the density for that month was 140,000. That would be OAB SHOBTAOB. 299 1,680,516 for the year on a sinijle track from here to the head of the lake, against 2,000,000 on the New York Central, averaged for the twelve months on the four tracks. Now, 1 wish an opportunity — I will take the time of the Com- mission — if the Commission desires, I will give them these figures. The Mesaba division in October moved 580,507 ton-miles for each mile of road, 295 miles. One hundred and fifteen of that and a large amount of the freight was iron ore, and, as I said before, we con- trolled the unloading. The cars were ours, and if there wa.s any delay, it was our delay. We got from 75 to 80 miles a day out of those cars. The train load was 1,406.72; the average carload was 39 tons, and I will undertake to say that never in the whole world has the same amount of track moved the same tonnage or approached it. The nearest approach will be on the Bessemer road, hauling Bessemer ore from Conneaut to Pittsburg. The Superior division ran 226,299 ; that is from here to Lake Superior. That would be at the rate of 2,7 1 5,588 mile-tons per annum, or right close up to the average of the Lake Shore with double track. They are 3,000,000. Commis.sionor Lane. Can you file the remainder of those figures with us, Mr. Hill? Are they in such shape that you can do that? Mr. Hill. I brouo:ht them especially for that purpcse, and every- thing is here — the different increases in our business and the manner in wliich we do it is condensed as far as we could. These figures, from which I have been reading, are current sheets in our office. I just took them out of the book, and I undertake to verify every figure that is here. They are absolutely correct and not any guesses or hear- say in them. I would like to show this: Take the Montana division, running from Havre to Williston. For July the average was 152,530 tons to the mile of road, single track; over 1,800, COO for the year — close to the average of the New York Central with four tracks. In October it was 145,031. The Montana Central runs over three ranges of moun- tains — the Bitter Root, Crow Creek, and the other, the main range. In 70 miles that road crosses two ranges of mountains, with max- imum grade of 116 feet, or 2.2. Notwithstanding, their average train load was 681 tons. They moved on an average for that month — that is, the month of October — 110,798 tons one mile for each mile of road, notwithstanding they have these enormous grades. They handle verj" heavy traffic. Commi.ssioner Lane. Mr. Marble, have you any further questions? Mr. Marble. Mr. Hill, are you accjuainted with the plan now being proposed by J. W. Midgley, of Clucago, in these circular letters he has sent out? Mr. Hill. I have known Mr. Midgley for a great many years, and I contributed to keep Mr. Midgley at work for a number of yeais on the question of interchange of cars, but the whole thing fell down. Mr. Midgley was a bright and capable man twenty years ago. Mr. Marble. Do you agree with his present plan? Mr. Hill. 1 have never seen it. I tiiink he sent it to me, but I have been busy and have spent all the time that I have had to give. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Hill, he h»s a plan which he calls a car exchange and clearing house. At the end of the month his plan is to have an adjustment l-vtween the roads, and where a road gives a connecting road a car the car must be returned, and if the returns are 300 OAB SHORTAGB. not equal at the end of the month, the difference is to be adjusted in a money value. I understand his view to be that that will provide or result in a more equal circulation of cars, as well as prevent this seizure of cars by roads who are not well equipped. Have you looked into that at all or thought of it ? Mr. Hill. It has been sent to me, sir. Commissioner Harlan. What do you think of it ? Mr. Hill. I do not think there is anything in it at all, and I will tell you why. Now, when there is a scarcity of cars, and tHey have a periodical or monthly settlement, it is not going to relieve us a particle to get 50 cents a day for cars that we would give $5 a day to have. Each railroad must have its own. We have sent our cars to Boston, for instance, and then sent a man after them to find them, and we found them hauling ice from Maine down to Boston, having been in that service for months and months. I found our box cars last spring hauling ties into Savannah, Ga. Now, that car started from here for St. Louis, to be returned. The car thief is the worst kind of a thief. Thieves are all bad, but I think the car thief is the worst. Commissioner Lane. There was some testimony here to-day indi- cating that you had your own cars and more, too ? Mr. Marble. You are about 3,000 cars to the good at the present time? Mr. Hill. We do not keep a man's car on our road, and there is an order on our road that as fast as that car can be unloaded it must be returned. People are sending cotton from the South and manu- factured goods from all over the country, everything, from here to Puget Sound, and I should say that 2,000 cars would be a very small proportion of foreign cars on our road ; but I should feel very much grieved if our men kept those foreign cars in local service. Mr. Marble. Well, would it not be a good idea to make it legiti- mate and lawful and proper to keep them by some car clearing house ? Mr. Hill. No, sir. You would have to pay for keeping them. Mr. AL\RBLE. Why not ? If they are worth $5 a day, why not pay $5 a day? Mr. Hill. Yes ; but no car is worth $5 a day to go from here to the coast with cotton. It will not pay. The total receipts will not be over two dollars and a half. Mr. Marble. I thought you said they were worth $5 a day a mo- ment ago ? ^Ir. Hill. I said we would be glad to have cars at $5 a day at that time, but they would be off on somebody's else road, and they would want to pay fifty cents a day. Since the 1st of December the per diem charge has been raised from twenty-five to fifty cents, and I think that will go very far toward curing the evil. I would like to see it a dollar. The thing that probably would be the best if it could be done would be a transfer. If a car comes from the east have it transferred. Commissioner Harlan. You mean going over your own rails? Mr. Hill. Transfer that car to our car and take it from here to its destination. Commissioner Harlan. Would that not be an expense in trans- portation i OAR SHORTAGE. 301 Mr. Hill. I think it would be very much less than the mileage that is paid. It would only be a bagatelle as compared with the mile- age, but the average shipper thinks that if he has to change cars he is ruined. Mr. Marble. Mr. Hill, as we are to interview Mr. Midgley at Chi- cago, I want to read a couple of lines from his circular letter No. 59, sent from Chicago on December 10, 190(), in which he says: "Assuredly Mr. E. li! Harriman and Mr. J. J. Hill could put firmly on its feet a car clearing house whenever they chose to take the initia- tive; and it is gratifying to be able to say those gentlemen cordially favor such a course." is that statement on the part of Mr. Midgley an incorrect statement ? Mr. Hill. I am afraid it is. I don't know what Mr. Harriman's feelings are in the matter, but I can answer for myself. Mr. Marble. In the change some years ago from a mileage pay- ment for diverted cars to a per diem payment, did or did not }>ir. Midglev take a prominent part ? Mr. Hill. Mr. Midgley was an employee of a number of railroads, of which ours was one, and for two reasons Mr. Marble (interrupting). I just want to know if he did have part in that and then I will ask you another question. Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; he did have part in that to some extent. Mr. Marble. Was Mr. Midgley at all an agent or factor in bringing that change about? Mr. Hill. Not that I know of. Mr. Marble. Have you followed these letters he has been printing for this central association this summer and distributing among the railroads? Mr. Hill. I have received some communications from him, but I have been so busy and they were so long I had not the time to read them. Mr. Marble. Now, if you had read Mr. Midgley's communication of May 17, 1906, you would have found this passage: With the proepoct of a harvest unsurpassed in our history, the demand for cars in a few months is likely to exceed the ability, under present methods and car service rules, to satisfactorily meet." So that, at that time, he foretold this? Mr. Hill. Anybody could foretell it. That is not a matter that requires any forethought. Anybody in the business that had any gumption at all would know that. Mr. Marble. That is only one quotation from this gentleman and here is another one. After referring to the argimient of Mr. Stuy- vesant Fish, of the Illinois Central, who was undertaking to show that the increase in equipment and capacity to move freighthad kept pace, so far as his road (the Illinois (Jentral) was concerned, with tne growth of the country, Mr. Midgley makes this statement: "This sustains the contention that the increase in motive power and in car capacity has kept pace with the marvelous growth of tonnage offered for transportation. I will also state that Mr. Midgley has told me that very many rail- road men agree with him that the present inability to give service is due to bad methods of car interchange. Now, you have stated very clearly what your view is on that point. Do you know whether or 302 CAB SHORTAGE. not there is a difference of opinion among operating railroad officials in this country on that point? Mr. Hill. I think if you should take men who were brought up in making tariffs — whose experience has been in making tariffs — I have always found that they were very generous with the company's cars, and apt to be with the company's rates. Mr. Marble. That has happened? Mr. Hill. Yes; and money. But as an operating man, who actually knows, and has to know, I never found one yet. Mr. Marble, You say they are all of the opinion, the experienced operating men that you have here stated? Mr. Hill. I think so. I never found one who disagreed. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not it is a fact that some five or six or seven years ago a great number of railroads followed this tonnage plan, which I understand you have the credit of invent- ing and imtiatmg, and a number of them found that it occasioned such dissatisfaction to their patrons that they had to abandon it and move all their trains by the old methods. Do you know whether that is true ? Mr. Hill. I know this. I know it is very difficult to get a railroad man anywhere who can load his cars— who appreciates the importance of loadmg a car and loading the engine with loaded cars. Now, I will try and clear your mind, because I think it needs it. I beg your pardon, nothing meant, except this, that the tendency of your questions, as I have listened to them, led me to believe that if your ideas were carried out the country would be so much worse off. Mr. ^La.rble. Understand me, Mr. Hill, I have tried to make my questions such that the answers would give completely the opinion of the railroad people in this country. The record will depend upon the answers they give, not upon my questions. Mr. Hill. I will just aid you right here, and illustrate — take a car that weighs 35,000 or 36,000 pounds and half load it or qiiarter load it. Now, we commenced, we found that the cars loaded from the country station to St. Paul averaged 5,000 to 6,000 pounds, and the capacity of those cars was 60,000. The company hauled 18 tons or car and blocked its railroad with 40 feet of car to move 6,000 Eounds. 'By paying close attention to the loading of that car we ave got it up to 18,000 pounds, and I think now at the Minnesota transfer probably higher than 18,000. We have not handled anything like the number of cars that we had to before to do the same amount of business. We do not block the side tracks, we do not block the railroad. It is the same thing as hav- ing a one-horse wagon and a delivery cart to haul brick. ?\ow, you could haul brick with one horse and a cart, but it would be very expen- sive and it would be very slow work. I do not think you need any further illustration than the one I have given to show that where we have 15 miles of double track out of 295 miles, total, that we move over 6,000,000 ton miles and there is no delay, and we move 1,300 tons to the train — average 1,300 to 1,400. I will give you some figures right here Mr. Marble. You will pardon me, Mr. Hill, but you are doing everything except answer my question Mr. Hill. I thought I was. What is your question ? OAB SHOBTAOE. 803 Mr. Marble. It is just this : Do you know whether or not, following your teaeliing and example, and under the control of men educated to your ide.s, a number of n ilroads in competitive territory some years ago did adopt tliis method, and in competitive territory found that it gave such dissatisfaction to their patrons that they had to hghten their trains to expedite movement? Do you know whether or not tliis is true ? Mr. Hill. I never heard of its being true. I have heard of this : I have heard of men coming and occupying a room in our building to study and see what we were doing. We gave them all the information we could. Then they would go off and try it for six months and they could not do it. They were like that doctor who "could cure fits. Now, they could not do it; and they go back to their old methods. Mr. Marble. Then they have attempted to adopt it and have given it up; a number of railro.ids? Mr. Hill. They have attempted to adopt it and failed because they did not know how. There can be notliing better to illustrate that than this case right here, to move 104 per cent of our tonnage with 211 per cent of tlie trains we run. Mr. Beoo. The object of your loading your cars and loading your engines as near to capacity as possible on your line is not for the mere purpose of making tonnage per train, but for the purpose of moving vour traffic ? Mr. Hill. Moving the traffic. Mr. Begq. You have got to do it to get the traffic over your line? Mr. Hill. The trains that are delayed the most, our train sheets will show, are the ones that have the lightest load. Mr. Marble. Well, do you think the cars push the engines along? Mr. Hill. No, sir; not at all. I never thought that. Mr. Marble. Well, what would be the dilliculty with the fight trains? Mr. Hill. Because they are way trains. Mr. Marble. Because they are stopping to do work along the road? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. The Great Northern has notified us that as to the coal deficiency at Parker they have already cared for that, and at Ojata they would have a car to-morrow. At Finley they had 6 cars of coal; Cando has had 4 cars of coal and 4 of wood; Gler cent. Mr. Marble. About 12 per cent? S. Doc. 333, 5^2 20 306 GAB SHOBTAGE. Mr. Hill. Yes. Mr. Begg. What other special conditions have there been — what effect had the washout in tne West on this situation and how severe were those washouts ? Mr. Hill. The wa.shouts on the main lines at a number of points entirely stopped traffic for just about a week. Mr. Begg. That congested the yards, did it ? Mr. Hill. It congested the line, over a ^eat deal of its mileage. Terminals near it, especially, became speedily filled with cars, which backed up clear across the country. Mr. Begg. How is the weather? Mr. Hill. Bad. The worst I have ever seen. Mr. Begg. How early did that species of weather set in ? Mr. Hill. Cold weather began to interrupt the movement of trains about the middle of November, and we have had almost continuous stormy weather through most of North Dakota ever since. Mr. Begg. Extremely cold? Mr. Hill. Extremely cold, and with drifting snow. Mr. Begg. How cold has it been? Mr. Hill. We had it yesterday morning, the coldest — 38° below zero at Grand Forks — ih&t was day before yesterday. Yesterday morning it was 28° below, with very high wind blowing and drifting snow; and under those conditions it was almost a physical impossi- bility to move trains. The day before yesterday a train of commercial coal went westbound from Larrimore with twenty cars in it, hauled by three engines. Each one of these engines would, under ordinary conditions, pvUl sixty cars, and it took three of them to pull twenty. Mr. Begg. The weather is very hard on men as well as engines? Mr. Hill. It is very hard indeed to get men to the point where they will give good service in that extreme weather. Mr.BEGG. It has also been stated that the greater percentage of the wheat this year has gone. Mr. Hill. There has been relatively a very heavy amount to the head of the Lakes. Mr. Begg. Your total wheat movement is equal to last year, is it not ? Mr. Hill. Just about equal. Mr. Begg. A greater portion to the head of the Lakes? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Mr. Begg. Whiat has caused the delay in movement to the head of the Lakes ? What has been the principal cause locally at the head of the Lakes? Mr. Hnx. The difficulty at the head of the Lakes had been, first, that business, instead of going, as it used to, directlv into elevators located on our line, has been ordered shipped and transferred to elevators on the lines of other companies, and we have got to dis- pose of those cars and switch them to the other companies, and the other company has to take that to the industry at which they are to be unloadeid and the cars then have to go to the dock, and, in some cases, through an intermediate line, and then go for loading. So that the movement of cars through the terminal is very much slower. The change in the methods of doing business is quite marked during late years, and particularly this year. There was a time in the early years of our operation at the tead of the Lakes when we CAB SHOBTAQB. 307 got as many as 800 carloads of grain and drew it into Superior and were able to turn them and have them on the way back to the wheat fields in two days, and under the very best conditions now we can not turn them in six days. Mr. Beoo. In addition to that have your yards been taxed) Mr. Hnx. Very severely taxed. Mr. Beoo. You had planned to enlarge those yards 1 Mr. Hill. We have thought to enlarge them. Mr. Bego. Impossible to do it ? Mr. Hill. Impossible. Mr. Bego. For what reason ? Mr. Hill. On account of both shortage of material and labor. Mr. Ward. What is the average freight car movement on the Great Northern — miles per day? Mr. Hill. It is about 28 miles per car per day. Mr. Ward. How does that compare with freight car movement on other roads with wliich you are familiar? Mr. Hill. I have not got statistics at hand for other roads, although I have seen from time to time in railway reports statistics that indicate that that mileage is verj' much greater than it is on lines east of us. I have seen the figures of one or two roads. I tliink the Northern Pacific are almost the same as ours, perhaps a very little less. Mr. Ward. Our average has decreased ? Mr. Hill. Our average has decreased a great deal and it has dropped very much the last two or three years. Mr. Ward. Explain that. Mr. Hell. It is verj'^ largely because the cars are loaded in both di- rections to a very much greater extent than it used to be. We have business going both east and west, and when in past years it ran in one direction only, and the only thing we had to do on the arrival of a car at the terminal was to place it at the unloading point, and receive it as an empty and send it out. In the case of cars destined to indus- tries on our line, we have a large per cent that goes to other lines for loading, and are delayed there. They get their loads on other lines. In some cases they are unloaded on one line and have to be moved empty to still anotner line and get their load there, and all those things tend to make the movement through the terminals very lethargic. Mr. Ward. And, of course, you have two loadings and two un- loadings? Mr. lIiLL. On the other end; a car going to a given point to be im- mediately loaded with grain and gets loaded with coal or some other commodity and loses two or more days before it is prepared to receive a load of grain. Mr. Ward. That is all. (The witness was excused.) Commissioner Lane. We will now take an adjournment at this time until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock at the United States court room in Chicago. (Thereupon at 2.20 o'clock the Commission adjourned.) 308 OAB SHORTAGE. United States Court Room, Chicago^ III.^ Decemher 20, 1906—10.10 a. m. Commissioner Lane. Gentlemen, may I have your attention? This hearing of the Interstate Commerce Commission is a con- tinuance of the hearing that was held during the fore part of this week in Minneapolis. It relates to the general subject of car short- age, the lack of facilities for transportation of freight. We desire to enter at this time into the conditions and practices respecting the movement of freight which obtain in this section, to search for the reasons therefor and which tend to justify or condemn the same. We wish to know whether the shipper or the consignee is in whole or in part to blame, either in the methods of delivering or receiving of freight, or whether the fault lies with the carriers because of either their indifference to public entreaty, their lack of foresight in providing necessary equipment or terminal facilities, or their too great regard for interests not wholly compatible with the most ef- ficient transportation service. We wish to know how far Avhatever delinquencies there are may be excused- because of the crop and business conditions. It is the further desire of the Commission to discover whether undesirable conditions, if resulting from rail- road methods, are such as can be remedied by the carriers them- selves, and whether such is their determination, as evidenced by policies alreadj' adopted and immediately contemplated, or whether it shall be necessary to advise legislation by Congress which will insure, as well as may be, against the recurrence of such public calamity as arises from so-called car shortage. The present hearing will therefore proceed to develop answers to the following questions : 1. "\Miat are the real conditions respecting the movement of freight in this section ? 2. Is there a shortage of freight cars or locomotives on the roads serving this territory; and, if so, what has been done to overcome such shortage? 3. Is proper and profitable use made of all cars and locomotives* available? 4. Are trains so made up and operated as to best serve the interests of the public ? 5. Is it within the power of the railroads to remedy the present trouble and insure, by adopting other methods of handling and interchanging cars, against their continuance? 6. What legislation, if any. would serve to induce more prompt handling of freight by both railroads, shippers, and consignees? Mr. John H. Marble will act as attorney for the Commission and we will be pleased to hear from anj^one, shipper or railroad man, who desires to prasent any views relating to this general subject. It is an investigation begun upon the initiative of the Commission itself, and we wish to have as full information as possible. Mr. Marble, you may proceed. Mr. Marble. If the Commission please, here is some correspond- ence that has come into my hands since the close of the Minneapolis session last night, which I will put into the record at this time. The first comes from the Northwestern Retail Coal Dealers Asso- ciation, of Minneapolis, Minn., and is signed by G. H. Reeves, secre- tary and treasurer, and says; CAB 8H0RTAGB. 309 " For your information I inclose you herewith copies of letters from Mr. Fred J. Kruse, Lamoure, N. Dak." In connection with that here is a letter from Lamoure, N. Dak., December 17, 1906, addressed to Mr. Geo. Reeves, which savs that N. P. car 45932, from Superior, shipped Noveml)er 30, 1906, had not vet arrived, and N. P. 32491, from Lehi«;h Valley Coal Company, shipped Decemlier 8, 190(5, had not yet arrived. Tlie letter also says that Lamoure has not had a freight from the east since the 12th instant, and that it has had a passenger coming over the road every day. The residents of Lamoure do not see why the railroad does not run a freight, for none of the dealei*s have a bit of fuel. I wish this to be put in and marked " Exhibit No. 1." (The same is admitted in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 1 — Marble.") Here is another letter from Mr. E. E. Heiner, of the St. Paul and Western Coal Company, who was on the stand at Minneapolis and j)romised to funiish corresi)ondence relating to delayed shipments. He sends in lettei-s relating to two cars. One is from t'argo, N. Dak., saying that they are in straits for fuel. This letter is written under date of the 14th instant. It says they have been wiring for car N. P. 34325, shipped on Deceml)er 3. The other is from Pleasant Lake, N. Dak., and is of the same general nature. (The same is admitted in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 2 — Marble.") Here is a souvenir postal card from McClusky, N. Dak., showing cattle in a pen awaiting cars. There is an accompanying letter oi explanation to the effect that the picture shows 91 head of cattle in the little stock yard at McClusky, N. Dak., on December 11. The writer savs that they are the property of George Hecker, who lives 20 miles \)ack in the country, and who drove them in on the morn- ing of December 7, expecting to find waiting the cars he had arranged for two weeks earlier. There was no place in town to put the cattle but the stock pen, and they remained from Friday morning until the following Wednesday morning (December 7 to 12) without shelter, with the mercury ranging as low as 26°. The local station agent wired repeatedly to Jamestown, the headquarters, hut got no reply, and finally sent a verbal message down the road to the freight crew begging them to come for the cattle. On Wednes- day they were taken to Carrington, a distance of 63 miles. Here they waited on the siding until after 5 p. m., reaching Jamestown nlxiut 11 p. m. The cattle had then stood in the car seventeen hours, and been carried just 107 miles. Following that is a statement of the grain situation, which I will not stop to read. (Same is admitted and marked " Exhibit No. 3 — Marble.") Here is another from Lisbon, N. Dak., of Deceml)er 14, and the writers say that last week they had to loan coal by the sack out of the small supply they had on hand for the mill to keep people from freez- ing. They shipped from there on October 12 car No. 9288, and this car arrived in Duluth on the 27th of November. Then, on the 27th of October car No. 33733 left there and arrived at Duluth on the 27th of November. They say they have an elevator at Englevale, and have not been able to get a single car of soft coal there all fall, although tliey have standing orders with two coal companies to ship as fa.st a.; possible since the 1st of October. 310 CAB SHORTAGE. I ask that this be marked as an exhibit. (The same is admitted in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. Marble.") Here is another from Sorenson's Elevator at Medbery, N. Dak., containing a statement to the same general effect which I will ask be marked as exhibit. (The same is admitted in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 5 — Marble.") Here is a letter from the Farmers' Co-operative Elevator Company, of Oriska, N. Dak., dated December 14, 1906, and they state that the number of cars shipped up to December 14, 1905, was G8, and to the corresponding date this year it is only 31. Their house has been closed practically since the 1st of October. Since that time they have had an occasional car and then have been closed for a week or more. They took a record of car 38086, loaded with flax, on Novem- ber 12. It arrived at Duluth November 28 to be unloaded, and was unloaded December 3, and the difference in the November and De- cember options caused 7 cents per bushel loss. Cars loaded there are left for some time before being taken away, and practically all cars that have been received there have been received since Thanksgiving Day — have been unloaded there. He says that possibly there might have been an empty sent in there, but that he does not know of it. (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 6 — Marble.") Here is another from the State Bank, of Lisbon, N. Dak., sent by Harley S. Grover, cashier, which incloses a copy of a letter fi'om a farmer who has been asked to pay his note. This farmer says : I promised to send you some money as soon as we quit plowing. We have quit and hauled some wheat to Verona. It is standing on the wagons in Verona for about ten days. We can't get room in the elevators or get cars. Yours, truly, Thos. Gaughan. (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 7 — Marble.") Here are other letters from gentlemen of Clifford, N. Dak., stating that their town has lost at least $25,000 worth of business this fall on account of the elevators being full to the roof more than half of the time. They say that they have lost 40,000 bushels of grain that has gone to other points on account of the shortage of cars. From Sep- tember 1, 1905, to December 1, 1905, they shipped out 150 cars of grain. From September 1, 1906, to December 1, 1906, they have shipped out 75 cars of grain, just one-half as many as last year in the same length of time, and during that period of three months last year they were blocked a ^ood share of the time. (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 8 — Marble.") I have a letter here from the secretary of the Iowa Grain Dealers' Association, with a mass of figures which he has compiled, showing the situation in his territory. I ask that this letter be marked as an exhibit. (The same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 9 — Marble.") Here is a letter from New Rockford, N. Dak. They say that they have suffered heavy losses by not getting cars at that point and that CAB SHORTAGE. 311 they have fewer cars this year than last year. I ask that this be made an exhibit, (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 10 — Marble.") W. B. BiDDLE, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows : Mr. Marbi^. You reside in the city of Chicago? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you are an official of the Rock Island Railroad? Mr. TWIDDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbij!. And your office is what? Mr. BiDDi^. Third vice-president, Mr. Marble. And you are in charge of traffic? Mr. BiDDLE. Traffic and a good many affairs of the company; yes, .sir. Mr. Marble. Has your road had difficulty this fall in furnisliing cars to vour customers? Mr. Middle. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you had difficulty in moving cars after they were loaded ? Mr. BiDDi^. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Has that been inability to start the car, or slowness after being started, or both ? Mr. BiDDLE. It has been, to a very great extent, inability to move the car to start with. Mr. Marble. Inability to get it on a train? Mr. BiDDLE. I do not mean by that any shortage of motive power, but the situation in our territory is more a congestion than it is a car shortage. I do not mean by that that there is not and has not been for a considerable period a shortage of cars in the sense that we could not furnish promptly all equipment ordered, but on the other hand the conditions have been such in a very large section of our territory that it was more of a congestion and an inability to dispose of the cars already loaded than a case of actual shortage of cars. Mr. Marble. Was that because of any actual shortage of motive power ? Mr. BiDDLE. No shortage of motive power. Mr. Marble. The railroads centering in Chicago have had a good deal of trouble through having their cars used as wareiiouses, have they not? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir; a good deal. Mr. Marble. A good many cars have been used for storage in the city of Chicago? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And the roads suffered from that? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I wish you would give us vour views as to that. Mr. BiDDLE. Well, the conditions at the large terminals that result in this trouble are numerous. In the first place, there are many cases where the facilities are inadequate, both on the part of the railroads and also on the part of tne shippers. Neither, perhaps, have kept pace with the increase in business. The railroads have 312 CAB SHORTAGE. made strides in that direction both in the way of increased equip- ment, motive power, and facilities, and have, perhaps, done all they could do in the last few years in that direction. The facilities that the shippers use, in my judgment, have not kept pace with the increase in their business, and I doubt if they have increased and improved in anything like the rate that facilities have offered by the railroads. Commissioner Lane. AMiat kind of facilities do you mean ? Mr. BiDDLE. I mean facilities for unloading and handling business. Connnissioner Lane. Such as what? Mr. BiDDLE. Well, warehouses. On the other hand, there is a very large class of business at all the terminals to handle on team tracks, and conditions, competitive or otherwise, have grown up on the rail- roads under which excessive time is allowed for handling of that business. For instance, you take certiiin shipments. There are a certain number of free days' time allowed for disposition — additional time allowed for unloading after disposition is given — and the con- sequence is that the cars stand on the team tracks here for weeks at a time. Commissioner Lane. And have you got power to remedy that yourself? Mr. BiDDLE. Well, I suppose that we have. I suppose that we could arbitrarily say that a car must be unloaded, say, within twenty- four or forty-eight hours after it is placed on tracks at the industry, if not placed in storage, but there are several conditions that work against that. In the first place, it is a condition that has ^own and which the railroads are themselves responsible for, possibly — - perhaps as much as anyone — in granting the privilege. In the second place, take a commodity like hay, and I question if you would be able to find storage capacity in the city of Chicago for any volume of freight of that character. In addition to that, there must be a constant controversy with the shipper over the demand for storage charges when it lies too long. In the matter of coal, as high as seven days free time has been f ranted. That has largely been remedied in the last thirty or sixty ays by the railroads taking arbitrary action and notifying coal dealers that they would not allow more than four days free time. Commissioner Harlan. What do you mean by seven days free time? Does that mean that the public has the privilege of that free time and that it is published in the tariffs? Mr. BiDDLE. It IS published under the same conditions — that is, it has been since August 28. Prior to that time we granted, I think, without any publication, and it was a general rule understood and known by everybody. Commissioner Lane. Could you get the railroads to unite? I understand the difficulty between competitive lines is that one line will give a privilege and then the others must? Mr. BiDDLE. That is a question that has been discussed among the railroads as all matters are. I do not think any general understand- ing has been reached, but some railroads have taken arbitrary action and have notified the patrons that regardless of the effect on their busi- ness they would reduce this free time. You take it in the matter of lumber shipments. In the movement of lumber, conditions have grown up under which lumber originat- ing in lumber sections will be stopped in transit, for diversion or CAB SHORTAGE. 313 reeonsignment. I think, perhaps, in a great many cases it has grown out of the fact that in purchasing lumber the shipments from the manufacturers start out m transit, and the fellow will put on some fictitious destination with the idea, if possible, of deceiving either the purchaser or the seller of the goods. This has, in a way at least under these conditions, largely accounted for the four to six or seven days for the car going to the market and the number of days that the lumber shipments are being handled that the cars are not moving. Then, additional time is allowed for unloading, and all of this is done without any penalty so far as denuirrage or car service is concerned. The same is true with the grain business; grain consigned to large citii»s — Chiciigo and Kansas City — is allowed so many days for dis- position. Additional time is allowed here at some elevator or industry or mill, and additional time for unloading, all of which is the result of com|)etitive conditions that have existed and in which an excessive free time has l>een given on these large conmioditi&s which represent a very large percentage of tlie total business handled by the western roads. Those things are all wrong, in our judgment. That is, an exces- sive free time has been allowed and we are nuiking an attempt either by conference with other lines or individually in nuiny cases — by in- dividual and arbitrary action — to get away from that as far as we can and reduce it to what we consider a reasonable time. Then, on the other hand, the shipper and handler says that these are conditions that we have created ourselves and maintained for ten or fifteen years, and that we have no arbitrary right to change them, and a good deal of dissatisfaction has been caused on that account. Commissioner Lane. It would be a protection to you if there were somebody that had power to fix that time ? Mr. Piddle. We have the power ourselves and, in my judgment, we will simplv have to exercise it and grant what we consider reasonable time, and if the shipper can show that is not right and proper, we will have to change it. I think it is to our interest to do that. Commissioner Lane. I think there is no question of that. Mr. BiDDLE. I think simply because of fearing the loss of business and stress of competition that we have been lax in handling these mat- ters. Now, speakmg for ourselves alone, we have a very peculiar con- dition in the Southwest. Both the Rock Island and the Frisco lines are what might be termed producing lines. They produce a great deal more business on their lines than they can furnish a market for. There is coal, cotton, lumber, and grain. Consequently, if we load all the stuflF on our lines that seeks a destination off of our lines, we do not get an income of cars enough to compensate us for the cars v»e have to furnish for outbound business. Take it in Oklahoma and Indian Territory, where I consider the situation more serious than anywhere else. I think it is perhaps safe to say that 85 per cent of the business originating in that territory seeks an outlet by way of the Gulf ports — Galveston and New Orleans — especially Galveston, be- cause that is the port thev are nearest to. The rate adjustment is favorable, because the roads naturally tend to send business that way. Up to about, I should say, the middle of August, we let our cai*s be loaded freely out west on the line for destinations generally, and about the 1st of September we discovered that our equipment was 314 CAR SHORTAGE. rapidly leaving us — leaving our rails and we were not getting equip- ment in place of it, or anything like equal to it. So we were obliged to say that we would not allow cars to be loaded for points beyond our rails. That was protection to ourselves and the people located on our lines; but the result of that was, of course, as anticipated, that everyone lost money and they said that their business does not find a market, and they can not handle their business. This was equivalent to an embargo, and consequently we sent one of our officials to Gal- veston, to confer with the other lines reaching that port. We re- ceived their assurances that they would be able to handle the cars promj)tly, release them, and return them to us empty with reasonable dispatch. In consequence of that we raised the embargo, you might say. We had, about the 1st of October, I should say, removed these restrictions. On the 10th or 12th — about ten or twelve daj's later — we received advices from those very railroad officials in Texas, stating that they found conditions such that they could not make good the promise to us unless we were willing to have cars veiy seriously delayed. They advised us that they were not able to handle the cars at Galveston. Therefore, we found that there was nothing left to do except to renew the conditions and the instructions we had given previously. In my opinion, we had sent down about 2,000 cars by way of Galveston, loaded with all sorts of commodities — grain, flour, cotton, etc., and at the time I started east, about ten days ago — I just returned yesterday — we had not, up to that time, been able to make delivery to connections at Galveston of all the cars there. The result was that we had loaded cars standing upon all the side tracks — con- gested terminals interfering with our handling of our general busi- ness — and we have got cars of stuff on our line loaded with grain and commodities of that character which are not perishable; and then there are commodities which would be more or less damaged if held too long. Perhaps some of them have been on the way sixty days loaded, and we have not been able to get rid of them. The last ad- vices I had were that there were several thousand cars in the city of Galveston unable to be handled, that the yards were full, and that the vacant lots were all piled up with cotton, and that the side tracks north of there were filled with loaded cars. Commissioner Lane. That situation at Galveston is due to defi- ciency of terminal facilities, is it not, according to your advices ? Mr. BiDDLE. I think, perhaps a combination of circumstances — I have not been down to Galveston during this congestion, but I think it might be attributed, perhaps, to insufficient terminal facilities, and the tremendous and unexpected amount of business on the lines south of Fort Worth, and possibly in some measure to interferences with vessels arriving. If the vessels are delayed and don't get in thei*e, an accumulation results before they get in and the carloads congest, and consequently it adds a great deal to the difficulty of handling that. I do not know from my own personal knowledge what the causes are that have led up to this. I have no doubt but that the terminals at Galveston are insufficient. Commissioner Lane. We have a telegram stating that there are forty-five vessels in the harbor waiting to be loaded, and that they can not get to the wharves because they have not got the facilities there. OAR SHORTAGE. 315 Mr. BiDDLE. I can readily piee how part of the trouble occurs down there, particularly in the handling of cotton. That is a very larffe commodity and a very important factor, and that is one of the diffi- culties, inability to handle it promptly. For inst4ince, it is scattered all around in ditfereut lots and thev become separated, and I suppose it results in a ^reat deal of detention and delay in properly loading and making delivery to the vessels. We have had trouble at various points on the line, but a very large per cent of it I believe is attribu- table to the causCvS I have stated. Of course, with the tremendous amount of business that thei-e is in the country to-dav no railroad would be able to handle every bit of the business offered, as there are not facilities that you could provide, in my judgment, in the way of cars, engines, terminals, sufficient to enable you to do that, and then, too, there are the weather conditions, and the conditions of the road, and all that sort of thing that may have a l)earing on it. I think. Sometimes congestions result from inability of people to get their freight in regularly, and then time is consumed in switching. But I do not l)elieve that there will ever be a time, with any facilities that the railroad could provide, that you could always, every day, take daily practically every shipment olTored, but I do think that the present conditions can be very materially improved. Commissioner Harlan. You think that it the industries of the country grow in the next few years as rapidly as they have in the last few years, that conditions are likely to get worse than better? Mr. BmoLE. Well, I think that there are likely to be serious con- gestions for some time to come. You take the question of the nuinner in which the business is handled by very large industries. I was told by a representative of the United States Steel Corporation the other day that they had every available foot of ground around their plant piled up with manufactured commoditievS. That is owing to the fact that they have not facilities — adequate facilities — for storage, and it is not their custom to store this business. It has been their custom to manufactui-e to fill orders, and, so far as possible, to run the manufactured articles right out and load the business right there innnediately on the cars. That prevents any congestion so long as the equipment is always available to t^ike care of the business, but if there were two thousand tons of rails and the carriers were unable to furnish cars at Pittsburg or some other territory of their manufac- ture, they might exj^ect their eastern connections to furnish it as long as the cars were in their territory. Then, if the cars are not there the rails must be piled on the ground. That is true of any number of manufactures of all kinds. Commissioner Lane. That is something that could not be reme- died by a larger supplv of cars on the part of the railroads. Mr. BiDDLE. Not quite. We have on the Rock Island Railroad in round numbers about 37,000 cars, on the last report I saw. Those figures vary from day to day. About 40 to 45 per cent of that equip- ment is off of our rails. Now, we of course have foreign cars on our line to overcome a part of that disability, but not to the extent that our cars are out of our territory. Commissioner Harlan. How many locomotives have you? Mr. BiDDLE. That I could not tell you. Commissioner Harlan. Is there anyone here who can ? 316 OAB SHOBTAGE. Mr, BiDDLE. I will see that you are furnished with that informa- tion. I do not think there is anyone in the room that has it. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know what the number of new cars has been that were purchased this last year ? Mr. BiDDLE. Well, we have purchased, I think — we have had orders for about 7,500 new cai-s, but not all of them are yet delivered. Commissioner Harlan. What provisions have you made for next year? Mr. BiDDLE. We have, I think, about 5,000 cars ordered. I think all we have been able to place. I do not know. Commissioner Harlan. There is some trouble in getting deliveries? ISIr. BiDDLE. Oh, yes, sir. In fact the car companies are all behind. They are behind on deliveries to us. I do not know of any additional car that could be ordered, or a greater number of locomotives during the last five years — perhaps we might have ordered more, but I mean the incapacity of the car manufacturing concerns of this country to supply them. Their capacity has been kept, so far as I know, during the last five years up to the maximum, and I think that an order placed for locomotives or freight cars to-day could not be filled inside of eight, nine, or ten months. Commissioner Lane. You do not find any great pressure on the line excepting that cars are taken off and held elsewhere? You have a sufficient number of cars to handle the traffic on your line, have you not, if you could get the cars back ? I understand that to be the your testimony. Mr. BiDDLE. I would not say that exactly. I think that if cars could be handled regularly in good faith, we could take care of the business in pretty fair shape with the cars and locomotives we have got. We are adding to them. We have ordered additional cars in past years equal to about 10 per cent per year. We have added that in the way of new equipment. Commissioner Harlan. AVhat have done in the way of new con- struction — new sidings, etc.? Mr. BiDDLE. That work is being carried on all the time. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know what proportion of that has been anticipated for the coming year? Mr. BiDDLE. No; I do not. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Biddle, could you not furnish a state- ment commencing with 1901, showing cars and locomotive equip- ment at that time, and showing the percentage of increase for each year as compared with the percentage of increase of the total ton- nage ? Mr. Biddle. I will be very glad to give you the information, and any more that you may want. Commissioner Harlan. I think it might be well also to furnish a statement of the appropriations for betterments and additions to track facilities and terminal facilities. Mr. Biddle. I do not think there is any objection to that whatever. I will ask the president to give me that information or send it to you himself. I just want to say one thing more to your Commission, and that is this. So far as our road is concerned, I believe it is true that while this condition is bad, I believe we have done all we could do in the way of meeting conditions. For instance, if we had a serious short- OAB SHORTAQB. 317 age of cars, as you will have at any time in some localities, in Da- kota, or Iowa, or Minnesota, we have hauled the cars 500 and 1,000 miles to take care of that particular business, and relieved the ele- vators which were congested to allow them to handle the business, with full knowledge that perhaps later on we would have to haul that same equipment back to the territory that we brought it from when we took it away. We have retired from some traffic absolutely and voluntarily. We have declined for six months to put a single car into export grain business through Galveston or other ports, from Kansas City, Atchi- son, Le^ivenworth, or Omaha, for the reason that there were other lines that reached from those markets through those ports. Another reason for refusing this business was that the cars get beyond our control when they leave our rails, and although you will say that we have foreign cai^s for those, we are unable to get enough to do anything like as much in the direction of taking care of local shippers who are entirely dependent on us for transportation facili- ties as we should be able to do with the equipment we own. That has not been entirely unselfish, as you might say, because it was done with full knowledge that if we did engage in this export business from very large terminals like Kansas City and other Missouri River points we would lose our equipment and thereby lose business and revenue, but I think that if we had gone freely into that business we would have had a very much worse condition than we have got to-day so far as the elevator man or the grain man at the local point is con- cerned. If this had not been the policy of our railroad why of course they would have taken the cars from us. This is forcing them to rely on the other lines. I want to simply say that in adopting that policy we thought it was the best for all concerned. Without this policy the condition of the elevator men and the grain men at the local points would be far woi-se than it has been under the policy that we have pursued. We went frankly to the grain shippers and told them what we pro- posed to do, and of coui'se they objected very strongly. They said we were forcing thom to rely on other lines. We said it was the best i)olicy that could l>e adopted, and that we were going to resort to it because it was the l)est for all concerned. Commissioner Lane. Is it a fair statement of that to say that you have been compelled, by lack of cooperation on the part of other railroads to actually refuse to perforin some of the obligations that rest upon you as a common carrier. Mr. BiDDi.E. I do not know that you could say that it was entirely due to lack of cooperation. You have reference, I presume, to our inability to handle the business to (Jalveston and get the cars back? Commissioner Lane. Yes; that is what I had in mind. Mr. BmuLE. Certainly there has been inability on their part. I do not know that they are in any way to blame for it. I do not know that they could have arranged matters differently in any way at all. They have had their own business to look after, and their own patrons, and it certainly is true that they have l)een utterly unable to jtssist us in disposing of this business that I speak of. There is an order out to-dav from these lines down there that they won't receive anything but live stock and perishable freight. This 318 CAB SHOBTAQE. amounts to an admission from most of the lines that we have to de- liver business to at Fort Leavenworth that they can not take any business from us. Commissioner Lane. \Miat remedy have you ^ot for a condition Fuch as that? Of course, the country will not submit to the continu- ance of a condition of that kind, and they look first to the railroad men to discover a remedy or some method by which the present con- dition can be relieved and cured. Mr. BiDDLE. Well, I think — I can not give you any suggestion, I presume, that would be particularly valuable as to any other line beyond our own, because I am not so familiar with their condition. T am thoroughly satisfied that there is a lack of terminal facilities at Galveston — that the terminal facilities there are entirely inadequate to handle the business to-day. I believe that if that condition were remedied and our connections from Fort AVorth south were in better shape to handle this business for us that we would have had no more than the ordinary complaint that 3'^ou would get at any time during the grain shipping season as to inadequate service. That entire condition, so far as our own line is concerned, in another year will be remedied. We will have our own rails into Galveston by the time that another grain shipping season comes around. What we will have done by that time in the way of terminal facilities of our own there I can not tell you now. I will undertake to give you such information, but I can not do it now. Mr. Marble. Have the elevators, any of them, or any considerable number of them, on your line been blockaded for lack of cars at any time during this crop season? Mr. BiDDLE. I think, with the exception of the situation that I told you of in Oklahoma, I do not know of any place where it is true to- day. If they have grain in their elevators going to Galveston it has to stay, for we can not furnish all the cars for it, because by doing that we would be simply furnishing cars that we could not get back, and in that manner harming our own shippers. With the exception of early in the season, when a part of the elevators in Dakota on our own line were blockaded — and at that time we hauled cars from Arkansas up there to take care of it — I do not think there has been any serious or protracted congestion that I know of. Mr. Marble. The Oklahoma situation is not so much due to lack of cars, but rather to terminal trouble and diversion trouble ? Mr. BiDDLE. I think so. I think we could have given reasonable service in the handling of that grain business down there if the other roads had been open and the terminal facilities better. Mr. Marble. And the South Dakota people were quickly relieved by the shipment of empties? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have the elevators on your line, except those in Okla- homa, been forced to pile grain on the ground? Mr. BiDDLE. Well, I have not heard of any. I have heard no com- plaint of that kind along our line in the Northwest. I have not any doubt whatever that any quantity of grain is stored on the ground in Oklahoma, com in particular. Mr, Marble. How many foreign cars are on your line? Mr. BiDDLE. That I can not say, because it is a condition which CAB SHORTAGE. 319 changes from day to day, and I have not seen the reports for two weeks. As I say, I have been away. Mr. Marble. You say that the number of your cars that you have lost is greater than the number of foreign cars held by you * Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Has that increased your difficulties? Mr. BiDDLE. Oh, yes. That just decreases the equipment that is avaihible to precisely the extent of the difference. Mr. Marble. The reason I ask is that we find the Northern Pacific with a^x)ut C.OOO more foreign cars than it has lost of its own, and the Great Northern with about 2,000 foreign cars more than it has lost of its own, and they seem to be having more trouble than usual. Mr. BiDDLE. It is not true with us. We have more care of our own off of our rails than we have foi*eign cars on our rails, and that is always true on our line. It is owing to the fact that there is so much of our business that we oui"selves produce. We are a producing line, and consequently it is the fact that our cars largely go off our own rails. Mr. Marble. AVill you furnish us with a statement, say for two months, showing the number of foreign cars held by you and the numl)er of cars of your own held by other roads? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir; I will be glad to. Mr. Marble. The car balance sheet, I believe? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir. What period would you like that to refer to? Mr. Marble. AVell, say the last half of this current year, if it is not too much trouble. Mr, BiDDLE. No; I can give you that. Mr. Marble. How many cars do you say are being used as ware- houses in the city of Chicago now ? Mr. BiDDLE. I have not the slightest idea. I could not very well tell ^ou the number of our own cars, because I have not that infor- mation. Mr. Marble. Well, is it a great many, enough to be a factor in this difficulty? Mr. BiDDLE. Oh, yes, indeed. Mr. Marble. A great many? Mr. BiDDLE. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you trouble wilh cars being held at the Atlantic seaports for storage purposes? Mr. BiDDLE. I do not know as to that. After a car leaves our hands, destined to an eastern road, we do not know anything about its dispo- sition, what disposition is made of it, whether it is in local service or whether held in terminals or what. Mr. Marble. You know that you don't get it back? Mr. Bii>DLE. We simply know that we do not get it back. Mr. Marble. Have the railroad men any remedy in contemplation for that evil of diversion ? Mr. BiDDLE. Not so far as I know, except that the penalty for the detention of foreign cars had been increased by the lines. Mr. AIarble. Do you think it has been increased enough, as com- pared with the value of the car in the busy season, to have any effect? Mr. BiDDLE. Oh, yes; I think it will have a decided effect. Mr. Marble. Do vou think the cliango from 25 cents to 50 cents will secure the return of the equipment < 320 CAR SHOBTAGE. Mr. BiDDLE. I do not know that it will secure the return of the equipment in all cases, but I think it will have a decided effect on the situation. Mr. MARBiiE. It will get more money for the use of the car for the road owning it? Is that what you mean? Mr. BiDDLE. I do not mean that. I think it will result in our cars coming back home with greater expediency than they have here- tofore. Mr. Marble. Is your road at all in favor of the remedy of pooling a portion of your equipment with connecting lines? Mr. BiDDLE. I have not discussed that with our people at all. Mr. Marble. AVell, have you an opinion that you care to express? Mr. BiDDLE. No, I have not ; because I have not considered it. Mr. Marble. In busy seasons, when you want to move large ton- nage, do you increase the tonnage attached to your engines or reduce it? Mr. BiDDLE. No ; it ought to be about the same. For the purposes of most railroads, on our own lines, at any rate, it is our purpose to give reasonable service. Of course, the engine can carry a less number of tons of live stock or perishable freight per train than it can of grain or coal. The engines are rated, and that rating is not supposed to change with the conditions of heavy or light tonnage, except as the weather conditions force you to reduce your tonnage upon the road. Mr. Marble. Then do I understand you that all the time you load your engines so that they can get over the road without delay ? Mr. BiDDLE. We are supposed to. Mr. Marble. You do not follow the policy of some of the North- western roads of extreme tonnage? Mr. BiDDLE. No, sir; we do not. Mr. Marble. You run on a different plan? Mr. BiDDLE. We try to get proper results and give adequate service. It does not make any difference to the shipper whether 500 tons or 5,000 tons is hauled by an engine, provided always rea- sonable time is made, satisfactory time. Mr. Marble. Do you think that you could give better service if you increased the tonnage of your trains from what you are hauling? Mr. BiDDLE. I do not imagine so. I imagine that our people are striving to get the best results possible and furnish the best service, considering all factors, economy in operation, and so forth. Mr. Marble. Has your road at any time within the last six or seven years tried the policy of increasing the tonnage in order to obtain a greater number of tons per train mile? Mr. BiDDLE. I could only speak from hearsay about that because I have only been connected with the property for about two years. Mr. Marble. Have you any information that the road did ever do that? Mr. BiDDLE. I think all the western roads did try that policy, or adopt it sometime ago. Mr. Marble. And abandoned it? Mr. BiDDLE. Generally speaking, yes. Mr. Marble. They found they could not give as good service to the public ? CAB SHORTAGE. 321 Mr. BiDDLE. I imagine that was the reason for it. Mr. Marble. They got better resuhs in ton miles per train mile, but the method did not result in as good service? Is that a fair state- ment ? Mr. BmoLE. My own judgment is that the l>est ivsults are obtained both from an operating, and every other standpoint, by not overload- ing your engine. JVIr. Marble. Have you any trouble with the coal situation on your line ? Mr. BmoLE. Nothing that I knoAv of, except what I have seen in the paper, while I was on my way back from the P2ast. I have not yet had any opportunity to inipiii-e. In reference to some points in southwestern Kansas, I made some inquiry before I came over here, but I did not have an opportunity to incjuire further than that, and I do not know of any complaint. Mr. Marble. That is all. The witness was excused.) E. W. McKexxa, called as a witness, was duly sworn, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Your name is E. W. McKenna? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbije. You reside in the city of Chicago? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. With what railroad are vou connected? Mr. McKenna. The Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul. Mr. Marble. What office do you hold with that company? Mr. McKenna. Second vice-president. Mr. Marble. In charge of operation? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is that road short of motive power? Mr. McKenna. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Are you at all short of cars? Mr. McKenna. The demand for cars is gi*eat. It is a demand that vaj-ies with our dull and busy seasons. We are short of cars, but not any more than we have been at any time during the rush season in the past twenty years. I desire to qualify that answer in connection with our motive power. We are short of motive power on some of our divisions for a day or so, but that situation is relieved immediately by obtaining assistance from some other part of the road. As a general rule we uie not short of motive power. Mr. Marble. You mean that the system, as a system, is not short of motive power? Mr. McKenna. The system is not short of motive power; no, sir. Mr. Marble. You consider, do you not, that you are giving as good service this fall as you have at any time during the last twenty years? Mr. McKenna. I think, with the exception of the situation involv- ing the grain crop of the Northwest, that we are giving better average service than before. Mr. Marble. Have the elevators on your line been blocked or out of the market at all this year? S. Doc. 333, 59-2 21 322 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. McKenna. I do not recollect liaving any instances of com- plaints in that respect. It may be possible that immediately after wheat thrashing in Minnesota there may have been some complaint, due to the fact that there was a very large supply immediately after the wheat was harvested, and the movement commenced from three to four weeks later than the average movement. The result of that was that a great number of cars had been accumulated in the grain territory for the purpose of hauling the grain east and those cars, owing to the delay, had to be hauled east empty to take merchandise westbound, and I think for a short time there was a considerable pressure on our elevators, although I do not recall any instances where any of the houses had to be closed up. Mr. Marble. You hauled empties west, and then hauled them away from the grain fields because the crop was not ready ? Mr. McKenna. We hauled them empty clear from the Missouri River to Chicago and Milwaukee. Mr. Marble. And they went back loaded and brought back grain ? Mr. McKenna. Came back with grain. Mr. Marble. The situation was quickly relieved ? Mr. McKJENNA. Well, it took about two weeks to turn the cars. Mr. Marble. Have you had any trouble in moving cars after they were loaded at any country point ? Mr. McKenna. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you had any trouble with extreme length of time taken in transit over your road ? Mr. McKenna. Oh, there may have been exceptional instances of an individual car here and there getting out of line, and being de- layed; but generally we have had no trouble in moving our traffic, with the exception of some small periods of congestion in connection with our terminals in Chicago. We have had no trouble at Mil- waukee, Minneapolis, or our other freight concentrating centers. Mr. Marble. ^Vhat is the length of j'^our grain haul, made by your road ? Mr. McKjjnna. I could not answer that question accurately, but my reccollection is that it would average somewhere between 200 and 400 miles. Mr. Marble. To Chicago or Milwaukee from the west? Mr. McKenna. As I say, it would probably average some place between 300 and 400 miles. Mr. Marble. AVhat do you consider a fair time for a loaded car to make the 300 miles after being started from the originating point, considering the delays that you consider fair and normal at the division points, until it is notified to the receiver as being in at the receiving point? Mr. McKenna. Such a car should move at the rate of 100 miles per twelve hours. Mr. Marble. One hundred miles per twelve hours, or 200 miles per day? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir; that also includes division-point delays. Mr. Marble. Do you actually give such service ? Mr. McKenna. I think we closely approximate it on our cars in transit. Mr. Marble. You are not very far short of it? CAB SHORTAGE. 323 Mr. McKenna. I think not. I have never prepared any statistics covering that, except our statistics of train movements, and that aver- aged from 9 to 15 miles per hour, and we check up our division f)oint.s each day. Every moining I receive a report of the cai-s de- aycd in transit, of any cause, twt'uty-four or forty-eiglit hours. Mr. Marble. Do you cH>nsi(ler an average of twelve houi*s' delay at each division point excessive? Mr. McKenxa. I certainly should. Commissioner Harlan. Is that your average daily car movement on all commodities, or just on grain? Mr. McIvENNA. On all comnuwlities. Our sto<"k movement, and high-class merchandise west bound, and meat traffic east, would move much more rapidly than that. Commissioner Lane. Wo have tosdinony from oi)erationg officers before us, to the effect that on grain shipments ton days is a reason- able time, including the passing through terminals, of a car of grain to travel 300 miles. Mr. MrlvENNA. Including disposition of the load at the toruiinal? Mr. Marbi^. Delay at intermediate division points only is included. Mr. McKenna. Well, that is a matter of practice, and of course it varies on different railroads. Conunissioner Harlan. It would not take you that long on your railroad? Mr. McKenna. Very decidedly not. Mr. Marble. Would it in competitive territory? Mr. McKenna. I imagine not. Mr. Marble. You would be afraid to try it? Mr. McKenna. I think in times like these competition does not cut very much figure, because we are all working just as hard as we can to handle the traffic that is thrust upon us. It is not a matter of going out and seeking business now, it is a matter simply of digesting that which is offered to us. Mr. Marble. How many engines have you ? Mr. McKenna. I can not answer that question accurately, but I think about 1,100. Mr. Marble. Do you know how many of them are out of service or in the repair shop, or what is called the "" back shop? " Mr. McKenna. On my last report, according to that 4.2 per cent. Mr. Marble. Is that an extraordinarily low per cent? Mr. McKenna. I think it is. Mr. Marble. What would be the normal percentage at this time of the year? Mr. McKenna. That is the normal percentage on our railroad. Our shops, however, are equipped to take care of 10 per cent of our equipment. Mr. Marble. How far apart are your shops that can make the ordinary small repairs to an engine? Mr. McKenna. We have three principal shops — Milwaukee, 85 miles from here; Minneapolis, 4'20 miles from here, and Dubuque, about ICO milos from Chicago. Then, at each of the division points, the shops are ofpiippod with a few light tools, so that they cau make the ordinary repairs, the so-called running repairs. 324 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. You are so fixed at each division point as to be able to make the ordinary running repairs? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir; and those division points woiild average a very small per cent over 100 miles distant from each other. Mr. Marble. Do yoti know what percentage of your engines are under repair, including those that are laid up say for twelve hours for light repairs, from day to day ? Mr. McKenna. This 4.2 per cent that I speak of covers all loco- motives that are out of service for repairs. Mr. Marble. "Whether for a long or short time? Mr. McKenxa. That includes heavy roundhouse repairs and heavy machine-shop repairs. All of our engines, practically, in all branches of the service are under repair at the end of their runs, to a sniall extent. Every engine that comes in has more or less work to be done upon it, and there are men there for the purpose of doing it. Sometimes this work may amount to an hour's labor, sometimes two horn's, and sometimes it may run into a matter of ten or twelve hours. Mr. Marble. Do you know how many foreign cars are on vour line? Mr. McKenna. About 14,000. Mr. Marble. How manv of vour cars are on other lines? Mr. McKenna. A little" less than 14,000. Mr. Marble. A little less than 14,000. Mr. McKenna. The balance, during all this fall, has been in our favor. AVe have looked to it to see that it was. Mr. Marble. You have taken care of that? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir; we have. Mr. Marble. Have you any remedy to suggest for car diveision? Mr. McKenna. A number of railroads, one of which was the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul, on the 1st day of December entered into an agreement, known as the diversion agreement. The amount of 25 cents per day for the use of the cars as between rail- roads — which means 25 cents a day per car as you probably know- was increased to 50 cents per day, with the hope that it would result in the return to each railroad company of its own cai"s. At this time a number of other railroads have entered into what is known" as the " diversion agreement." The oifect of the per diem arrange- ment has practically pooled the cars of the United States. Under the old rule, a car received from a connecting line, with a load for a point on that railroad, was taken to that point, and then loaded back to the railroad which furnished the car at that point, or an intermediate point, or otherwise it was delivered empty. Under the per diem arrangement the effect was to pool the cai-s. You are not held to any responsibility for keeping the cars of other lines, and the diversion agreement was entered into for the purpose of stimu- lating the efforts of railroads to return the cars to the roads which own them. The diversion rule is, that if a car is loaded away from the direction of home there shall be a penalty applied to the railroad which makes that diversion of $5 for that transaction. The rule is that cars must be loaded home or in the direction of home. They may be sent to a point beyond the point at which they are released, to secure a load, but it must be to a point on the home road, or via the home road. CAR SHORTAGE. 325 Comniissionor TIarf-an. You moan it must be sent home or to a point Ixivond { Mr. McKenxa. It may be sent home or to a point Wvontl the initial road. The matter of c'heckin«f, that is in a vervi hir^e tU'*rree in the hands of the raih'oads, because each transfer of a car from one road to another is covered by junction repoits which ^o to tlie owner of the car. That rule, liowever, has not now been in effect long enough so that its workings can he thoroughly understood. It is now simply being tried. Mr. Marble. Is this penalty of $5 which you mention for the single transaction, or is it $5 per day? Mr. McKexna. Five dollars for the transaction. Mr. Marble. Do you think that is large enough, in the busy season of the year, to have any effect ? Mr. McKexna. We are very much " up in the air " about that. We do not know how it is going to work out. A number of loads went into it — the Pennsvlvania lines east and west of Pittsburg, the Erie, the Baltimore and Ohio, and the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul, which, I believe, is the only road in the West that went into it. Mr. Marbijj. Is it or is it not true that a car in the busy season is wortli $8 or $0 or $10 a day to the road which uses it? Do you not think that so small a penalty will not have the desired effect? Mr. McKexxa. I do not l)elieve that the earnings will produce that value for any car. I think it could Ik; made worth that if we could get an adjustment of terminal facilities and receiving facilities for taking care of the traflic, and I think that about half that sum that you mention is about right in the busy times. Mr. Marbij:. Then, don't you think that this $5 penalty is likely to result only in an increased income for the ownei-s of the car, the car bein^ worth as much per day as the amount of the penalty for the transaction ? Mr. McKexxa. No; my impression is that that will have the effect of returning the cars more promptly, because I know that the prac- tice of our own road when that arrangement was entered into — the instructions have been that that agreement must be explicitly carried out. Mr. Marble. It is now but in its experimental stage, and you are watching the effect? Mr. McKexxa. Yes; we are imposing a i)enalty now to bring about what we used to do for the sake of plain dealing and common honesty. Mr. Marble. Will you tell us, from the standpoint of your road, what you know as to the use of cars as warehouses in this city, or any other place where, according to your observation, that practice has been in vogue? Mr. McKexna. Well, the free time which is gi*anted and which has grown up for some years on various commodities detracts very greatly from the earning power of the car to its owners. Certain commodi- ties, as, for instance, hay, coal, wheat, and all sorts of grain have the advantage of that free time. There are certain rules governing the handling of cars which have grown up as the result of competition between railroads, that T suppose are now really a part of our system of handling freight, that it would be difficult to do away with. 326 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Th.it also results or amounts to a discrimination as between shippers, some shippers having the privilege of using the cars as warehouses, and other shippers being unable to secure cars at all? . Mr. McKenna. I do not believe it would go to the extent of dis- crimination. Mr. Marble. I do not mean intentionally, but that is what the car shortage means. Perhaps that is where it commences. Mr. McKenna. It places a burden on all the grain of the country, if you please to look at it in that manner; but it is a situation in which the shipper is quite as much interested as the carrier in stimu- lating the efficiency of the car movement to the highest point. It is quite evident that the receiver of freight has not enhanced his facili- ties to the degree that the railways have, because the per diem car movement — the general statistics will show it — ^lias constantly de- creased in miles per day. I think that statistics will show that for a number of years this has steadily grown less. Mr. Marble. Do you think there is any fair ground for hoping that of themselves the shippers will end the useof cars as warehouses? Is there any hope that the shippers who are now using the cars as ware- houses will abandon that practice, provide warehouse facilities for themselves, and release the cars, unless the roads take some action? ^fr. McKenna. Well, I believe that there is a better condition coming about. The roads have already taken action. The American Railway Association, at its last meeting, appointed a committee called the "car-efficiency committee." Mr. Arthur Hale, of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, is the chairman of it, and, acting upon a suggestion of his own, and his OAvn initiative, he is attempting to have committees of the receivers — large receivers of commodities in various business centers — formed, so that they may come together with the railroad men on this committee that I have named, in the effort to investigate and remedy these conditions. The purpose of the committee is to ascertain what steps can be taken for the betterment of the conditions, and for the benefit of tl>e entire country. I am very hopeful that some benefit will come from it. Mr. Marble. You would say that you are in the investigation stage of providing a remedy ? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is that investigation being vigorously prosecuted? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir; so far as I have been able to ascertain or judge Mr. Hale is doing everything in his power to bring that result about. He so told me when I last saw him. People connected with the board of trade here, however, are of the opinion that he will Ix^ unable to accomj^lish very nnich. Mr. Marble. How many cars do you say are being used as ware- houses here in the city of Chicago? Mr. McKenna. Any estimate that I would give in answer to that question would be simply a rough guess. I should say that the St. Paul road brings into Cliicago m)m 1,200 to 1,400 cars a day. The average time that these cars are detained in Chicago is about seven days. That at least is a basis for calculation. Commissioner Lane. It takes about seveil days after a car arrivas in Chicago before it can be unloaded and go out ? Car shortage. 327 Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir; we have an average of a little less than tsix days, but I think that the prevailing average is about seven days. Commissioner Lane. That would be about 1,400 cars? Mr. McKenna. Yes; but that is simplv an approximation. I can, however, get, and will gladly give, you the exact figures. Commissioner Lane. I would like very much to have them. Mr. MARiiLE. ^Vhat do you say would be a fair detention here in Chicago, or what would be fair and right as to the length of time that such cars should be detained here? Mr. McKenna. Oh, I suppose that probably that would be about four days. Under average conditions I prasume that from four to five days would be sufficient. That would release in Chicago, or that would be equal, I should say, in Chicago to about 75,000 car days per day. Mr. Marble. Seventy-five thousand car days per day ? Mr. McKenna. YeSj sir. Mr. Marble. For this city alone? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have yob had any trouble with the detention of your cars at the seaboard for storage ? Mr. McKenna. I know in a general way that there has been a great detention in that locality. Whether it has been one which applied to our cars or not I do not know at present. Air. Marble. In the loading of your engines, do you follow the practice of the northwestern roads, as to their heavy loads? Mr. McKenna. No, sir. Mr. Marble. ^Vhy do you not do that? Mr. McKenna. The only earning factor on a railroad is the loco- motive. The money that goes into the treasurv is the result of the work of the locomotive. Ordinary business judgment would require that you get all of the work out of your locomotives that you can, consistent with the collateral facts and conditions surrounding it. AVe load our locomotives to a fair limit^ so that they can run over the road and carry their loads. We load in summer maybe 40 per cent greater than we do in winter. The local conditions are largely con- trolling. The means to meet those conditions are in the hands of the officials of the local divisions each day. It turns upon the weather conditions, the condition of the locomotive itself, or any of the sur- rounding conditions. We expect from them on the average about 10 miles per hour. Mr. Marble. You expect, including delays in the division points, al)out 8 miles per hour ? Mr. McKenna. Well, yes ; possibly. Mr. Marble. About 100 miles every twelve hours? Mr. McKenna. Let me see. Let me be sure that I understand you. Do you mean from the initial movement of the cars? Air. Marble. Yes. Mr. McKenna. Well, yes. Mr. Marble. About 100 miles every twelve hours? Mr. McKenna. Yes. Mr. Marble. And do you so load as to get that performance? Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir ; we do. Mr. Marble. If you should load heavier, you would get figures showing more tons carried per train mile, of course? 328 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What would be the effect? Would you give as good service to the public ? Mr. McKenna. No, sir. We would not give as good service to the public, and I doubt very much whether, under that arrangement, you ANould get from your locomotives as great efficiency. Mr. Marble. And it w^ould ultimately reduce your earnings? Mr. McKenna. Ultimately ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You would not move as many tons in a month with a locomotive, even though it hauled more tons per train mile; is that right? Mr. McKenna. I should say that you would reduce the efficiency of your equipment by allowing it to be limited in that way, under all conditions, at least 30 per cent. A delay to a car in transit is just as bad as a delay to a car waiting for the shipper to load or the consignee to remove the load. Commissioner Lane. What is the average weight of a train that you haul — how many tons? Mr. McKenna. It varies very largely. It is governed by the grade line of the division on which the traffic moves, and the power that is used to move it. Commissioner Lane. Considering now your largest engines, I mean. Mr. McKenna. I think our loading on the Chicago division is 1,800 tons. On the La Crosse division about the same; but then wo have other divisions where it runs down as low as 500. Mr. Marble. Will you give us your car balance sheet for the last three months, saj^ ? Mr. McKenna. The balance sheet between the railroads? Mr. Marble. Yes. Mr. McKenna. Between the railroads, you mean ? Mr. Marble. Yes. Mr. McKenna. Yes, sir; with pleasure. Mr. Marble. Showing the number of foreign cars held by you, and the number of your cars held by foreign roads? Mr. McKenna, Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. At periods of say a week apart during this crop year? Mr. McKenna. I think those balances are taken oH' about three times a month. They are sent to my office and I can give them to you in an hour if you want them. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Biddle, will you tell us what the aver- age daily car movement on your line is? Mr. BmoLE. About 23 miles a day, according to the last advices or reports that I saw. It runs from 22 to 23 miles per day. It is very much less than it was about a year ago. Commissioner Harlan. That is the average in the whole country ? Mr. BrooLE. That is the average for the whole South. Commissioner Harlan. And for the whole country, is it not? Mr. BiDDLE. How do you mean? Commissioner Harlan. Well, I have seen figures; I have seen a statement to the effect that the average car movement for the entire country was about 23 miles. Mr. Biddle. I am not sure about that. A year ago it was in excess of that, I think about 25 or 26 miles. CAR SHORTAGE. 329 Commissioner Harlan. Ami about 23 miles this year? Mr. BroDLE. Yes. Commissioner Hari^\x. You hoard Mr. McKenna's statement, did you not? Mr. BmoLE. No; I do not know that I did; not in reference to that. Mr. Marble. He was not asked as to that; it was as to the time that a car was in transit and also the delays in passing a division point. These figures, as I understand them, include these cars that are used as warehouses? Mr. Bn)DLE. Yes. Commissioner Harlax. Mr. McKenna, will you give the car move- ment on your line? Mr. McKenna. For four months it has been from 32 to 36 miles. Commissioner Harlan. Is it less than last year? Mr. McKenna. I^ist vear it was 31 to 33 miles for the same i)eriod. Mr. Marble. I would like to ask Mr. Biddle in refeivnoe to a car of grain loaded out in the country — and this is in connection with the same question — to come 300 miles into a market and passin*' through two division points, what is the nonnal, customary, and i*easonable delay from the time it is shipped until it is received? Mr. Bn)DLE. I could not give you that. I do not know that our people have it in that shape. I know our average mileage per day per car, and that is,*I think, between 22 and 23 miles, and last year, as I recollect it, it was alx)ut 25 or 20, and the ditference in our judgment is accounted for by the congestion, under which con- dition a large nunilK>r of our loadwl cars are absolutely standing still. However, that subject and that information I am hardly in a position to give to you in the same shape that Mr. McKenna is giving it to you. Mr. Marble. AVhat I wouhl like to ascertain is what do you on your road think is the fair thing to do and what do you actually do — about how many miles per twelve hours? Mr, Bn)DLE. I have not the train sheets in mv possession, so that I am unable to give you tlie information for which you ask in that way. Mr. Marble. Is it as low as twenty? Mr. HiDDLE. I have not the slightest ideii. Mr. Marble. Will you give us some figures about it corresponding to these figures which have been given by Mr. McKenna? Mr. BmniJ-:. Yes; I will. Conmiissioner Harlan. Mr. McKenna, can vou also send us a state- merit showing the increase of your locomotive equipment and car equipment since 1901. Mr. McKenna. That is contained in this statement which I have already submitted to the Conmiission. Commissioner Harlan. Does that show the increase in the tonnage for the same period? Mr. McKenna. Not tonnace, but ton mileage. It is only for the first four months of this fiscal year. Our ton mileage increased 10.07 per cent. AVe build our own locomotives and cars, and during the year ending December 1 we built 56 locomotives, an increase of about 5.J per c«nt; 4,441 cjirs, representing a net increase of 8.04 per cent. A ivA increase in that case means that that is additional equipment aft:'r the cars that have been dropped out have been considered. 330 CAR SHORTAGE. Commissioner Harlan. That is the largest for the year? Mr. McKenna. Yes; for the calendar ye-av to December 1. Commisioner Harlan. Does that show your increase of equipment since 1901? Mr. McKenna. No, sir; but I can prepare that for you, and will be glad to do so. Commissioner Harlan. If you will, also show the increase of your gross tonnage, and net tonnage moved ? Mr. McKenna. Let me understand what you want. You want a statement showing the increase of the locomotives and freight-car equipment and the increase in tonnage from 1901 to Commissioner Harlan. To the end of your last calendar or fiscal year ? Mr. McKenna. Yes; I would be very glad to furnish you with that. Mr. Marble. Is there anything here in addition that you desire to explain? I have here the statement prepared by Mr. McKenna which I want to put in. Mr. McKenna. I do not believe that the statement which Mr. Marble refers to contains anything upon which I have not already commented. Mr. Marble. Then the statement prepared by Mr. McKenna I will now file with his testimony. (Same is received in evidence and marked " Exhibit No. 1 — McKenna.") Commissioner Lane. I want to ask one question. Is there a neces- sity existing which compels the railroads to go to the car manufac- turers and locomotive makers in order to get locomotives and cars? Can not the railroads themselves supply themselves with this equipment ? Mr. McKenna. I can answer that question, so far as the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul is concerned. It supplies itself with its own locomotives and freight cars. We build our own. We have a capac- ity at West Milwaukee of 8,500 freight cars per year. Our locomo- tive capacity in the current year has been about 62. We have made an addition to our locomotive construction shops, so that next year we will be building about 132 per annum, or at least have that capacity. Commissioner Lane. How many railroads in the country are equipped so as to make their own locomotives and cars? Mr. McKenna. I do not know of any other railroad that builds all of its ow^n equipment. The Pennsylvania builds some locomo- tives, but I think it has gone out of freight-car construction. Commissioner Lane, Do 3 ou know what your car-building plant costs, or what it is valued at? Mr. McKenna. I can only get at that approximately, because it is a part of our general shops at Milwaukee. Commissioner Lane. What approximation would you give? Mr. McKenna. Oh, I should say, roughly, that we have got — that is, that we will have invested by the 1st of February, in that })ar- ticular direction, about $1,500,000. Commissioner Lane. Is there any embarrassment to the railroad that builds its own cars in procuring whatever equipment it needs? CAR SHORTAGE. 331 Mr. McKenna. Not in oiir case. We have been able for the last sevonteon years to provide car equipineiit necessaiy for our needs, and we are now builaing for several extensions that are under con- struction. Mr. Marble. Has your road at any time in the last ten years tried the plan of loading its trains heavier, so as to have more ton-miles i>er train-mile? Mr. McKenna. We are continually increasing the load behind the engines. We are. continually endeavoring to increase the load behind the engine, in so far as it is consistent with adequate and satisfactory service to the public, and looking always to reasonable locomotive efficiency and the general good of the service. Mr. Marble. Such as you have here testified to as being reasonable? Mr. McKenna. Yes. Mr. Marble. Have you tried heavier loading as an experiment? Mr. McKenna. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You have not tried such experiments? Mr. McKenna. No, sir. (The witnass was excused.) C. W. Sanford, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows: Mr. Marbi.£. You reside in Chicago? Mr. Sanford. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are engaged in the railroad business? Mr. Sanford. Manager of the Chicago Car Service Association. Mr. Marble. What is that association? Mr. Sanford. It is what is known as the Demurrage Bureau. It makes record of all the cars held beyond the free time for loading or unloading — that is, the free time allowed by the railroad rules. Mr. Marble. That being so, also you have knowledge of cars which are l)eing held over the free time and can testify as to their number? Mr. Sanford. Yes, sir; my attention is directed to all cars for local delivery and held for ordei's. Mr. Marble. On what roads? Mr. Sanford. On all roads. Mr. Marble. Now, just to put this in one sentence, I wish to come to the question of cars being used as warehouses. What do you say as to the number of cars that are being held in Chicago, and the aver- age period of their detention, for all the roads, from your general experience and knowledge in that business ? Afr. Sanford. Well, I can not say as to the outside detention. We compute the detention from the time that the car arrives at the sta- tion until it is what we term released. That is, the disposition given to the road which is holding it, or until it is unloaded. The average detention by days at Chicago, while the car is held at stations, up until the time it is ordered, is aboiit two and a half days. Mr. Marble. During that time is the car under the ship|)ers' con- trol, or the railroad's control? Mr. Sanford. Why, the shipi)ei-s control about 90 i>er cent of that time. I mean that the shippers' detention is about nine-tenths of a day. Mr. Marble. About nine-tenths of a day ? Mr. Sanford. Yes, sir. 332 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Tlien, as to the free time, how much does that average ? Mr. SANtx)RD. Well, the free time allowed at Chicago to-day is fortv-eight hours for the reconsigning of all commodities except coal. Coal is allowed five days by some lines. Forty-eight hours is allowed for the unloading of all commodities except gi*ain for elevators, which is allowed five days, but the railroads have given directions to have their rules become effective — to have the release of the car become effective as promptly as jjossible, which will make the free reconsign- ing time forty-eight hours for all commodities except coal. Coal will have a maximum of four days, providing the unloading for all commodities shall be forty-eight hours — the unloading free time. Mr. Marble. The unloading time is in addition to the free time, is it ? Mr. Sanford. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. A^liat is the demurrage after that? Mr. Sanford. One dollar j^er day. Commissioner Lane. For all railroads coming into Chicago? Mr. Sanford. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. And that has l^een effective how long? Mr. Sanford. Well, that dollar-a-day rate has been effective for years — since 1888. These rules that I have just described, Ave have orders to put them into effect, but it will take at least thirty days l)efore we can get them entirely operative. It will be I think, about February 1 before they become effective. Commissioner Lane. Is $1 per day sufficient? I will ask it in another form. Would warehouses, on that same freight, charge more ? Would storage of that same freight in a warehouse cost more than $1 per day ? Mr. Sanford. That depends upon how long it would be held up. If a man onh' expected to hold it for three or four days, then it is more economical for him to hold it in the car. If, on the other hand, he was going to hold it for two weeks or more, it would be best for him to hold it in a warehouse. Commissioner Lane. Can you tell what the average number of days is that a car is held over the forty-eight hours which is permitted ordinarily ? Mr. Sanford. Well, the total detention is less; well, one and one- half days it was said a little while ago. Commissioner Lane. Yes; but the cars I mean that are held over two days. Mr. Sanford. Well, at this time, about 10 per cent. Commissioner Lane. Ten wr cent are held more than two days? Mr. Sanford. That is, sufficient time to accrue car service charges. Commissioner Lane. That would In? one day, would it ? Mr. Sanjxjrd. No; two days. Commissioner Lane. Well, two da3's; and after two days you ch-.irge $1 a day? Mr. Sanford. Yes; exactly. Commissioner Lane. Now. then, 10 per cent, as I understand you, are held more than two day«? Mr. Sanford. Yes; that is correct. Commissioner Lane. Now, can you tell me what the average length, of time over two days is that those cars are held ? CAB SHORTAGE. 333 Mr. Saxford. "Well, I could only approximate that, but I would say about four days. Conunissioner Lane. Are uiany of them held for that length of tune ? Mr. Sanford. AVhy, no; not a very large iK*rcontage, although Chicago is a distributnig nnirket, and there is a gi'eat deal of " notify " freight shipped here. I suppose that there is a larger |)er cvnt of freight held in cai^s at Chicago than at any other point. We fre- quently have eai*s that are lieUl for thirty days or h)nger. Commissioner Harlan. What class of freight is that? Mr. Saxford. It is principally slack, duff coal, and hay. Occasion- ally wooti, slabs that come from some planing mill in the North. It is those three connnodities principally, and then in the fruit season there are frequently cai*s of vegi'tables for which there is not a prompt demand, watermelons and such fruit as that. Fruit like that is allowed to remain on hand, owing to an unsatisfactory market, until it is of too little value. It stays in the car till the railroads find that it is not going to be unloaded by the consignee and then they un- load it. Mr. Marble. AMiy is there more free time allowed on coal and coke than on other commodities? Mr. Saxford. A large percentage of the coal and coke that comes to this market is from a long haul. It passes through a number of division points and points where railroads put it in probably two or three different trains — it is put in different trains at different yards. It is necessary to market coal at a distance from Chicago and liaul it to some distributing point, or at least very nnich of it. This has always been a distributing point. There is lake competition at Chi- cago. Coal that comes by lake competes with coal that comes by rail. Lake transportation is economical, and in that the coal is often held for some time on the docks. The idea is to in some manner place the rail shipper on an equal footing. It takes some time for the consignee to dispose of his freight here. Mr. Marble. Does that apply to all commodities likewise? Mr. Saxford. Not all commodities, but it applies to some com- modities, and to coal, as well as anything else. It takes longer time to communicate with the consignee and get his directions for the disposition of the coal here than it does at some other stations. Mr. Marble. The explanation, then, would be that as to the coal, methods have to be adopted to meet the lake competition? Mr. Saxford. They have to meet the lake competition. E Mr. Marble. And the railroads have therefore j^ermitted the coal ^ to be stored in the cars? Mr. Saxford. Not entirely that, but if a man can ship coal in by water and have it held until he wants to use it, and he can not obtain the same privilege if he ships by rail, he certainly will give the prefer- ence to the mode of transportation which affords him the facilities that he wants, when it is possible for him to do so. Mr. Marble. You say that the ruling reason is the competition? Mr. Saxf-ord. And in addition to that, the long haul, the irregu- larity in the route, and time of arrival, owing to the long haul. Mr. Marble. The uncertainty in time of delivery? Mr. Saxfx)RD. Partly that. Mr. Marble. Does not that apply to other products? 334 CAB SHORTAGB. Mr. Sanford. Well, it does not apply to other products that are not necessities. Coal is a necessity. Many of our big industries would be obliged to close down if they could not be regularly sup- plied with coal. Railroad companies frequently find it impossible to do that at a distance of 400 or 500 miles. Mr. Marble. Before I left Washington I heard this: That the railroad companies had provided specially built cars for the coal dealers, which could be quickly unloaded, but that the coal dealers had failed to provide the proper facilities for unloading such cars and were using primitive methods. Do you know anything about that? I refer to the hopper-bottom cars, cars which will practically unload themselves if properly handled. Mr. Sanford. I presume a very small percentage of coal dealers are equipped with trestles and other conveniences for unloading hopper- bottom cars. It is a very small percentage of coal dealers, probably, that would find it profitable to go that expense; that is, dealers who would unload sufficient coal regularly to warrant an expense of that kind. Mr. Marbi-e. Well, coal dealers as well as others are complaining of the lack of cars. Mr. Sanford. They don't complain to me of a lack of cars when I come in contact with the public. It is generally because they are oversupplied and don't unload their cars. Mr. Marble. What was that ? Mr. Sanford. When I come in contact with the public it is because they are oversupplied, generally, and do not unload their cars. They make no complaint to me of shortage. Mr. Marble. They want more free time ? Mr. Sanford. Yes; they Avant more free time. Commissioner Lane. How many loaded cars come into Chicago in a day ? Mr. Sanford. I could not say. Commissioner Lane. AVell, you gave us a figure of 10 per cent on the number that were held over two days. Mr. Sanford. Well, I did that because we figure that every month — we make a record of all the cars that are charged car service or that are subject to car service, and that is the number of cars that are charged car service. Commissioner Lane. I understand that, but you testified to a cer- tain figure of 10 per cent of the number of cars that came in. Mr. Sanford. I said that the number of cars held for loading, im- loading, or reconsigning. Now, there are a great many cars that come into Chicago that are loaded with through freight. Tliere are a great many cars of through freight. I make no record of them, and pay no attention to them. Commissioner Lane. Only the cars that come here, to this city, as their terminus ? Mr. Sanford. Exactly. Commissioner Lane. How many cars of that kind are there? Mr. Sanford. Well, we record about 175,000 to 205,000 per month. Commissioner Lane. How many days do you figure, thirty days to a month ? Mr. Sanford. We figure the working days only, twenty-six days to a month. CAR SHORTAGE. 335 Commissioner Lane. Six days in the week? Mr. Sanford. Yes, sir. Commissioner Ijane. Ten per cent of that, then, would be 17,000 cai*s? Mr. Sanford. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Seventeen thousand cars in this city that are held longer than forty -eight hours? Mr. Sanj-orix In a month? Conmiissioner Lane. In a month, yes. Does that mean individual cars, or do you accumulate the cars? Do you count the same car over again? Mr. Sanford. No; we only count the car once, whether it accrues $1 or $20. Commissioner Lane. There would bo, tiien, 17,000 individual cars during a month that would be held for warehousing or some purpose of that kind ? Mr. Sani'X)ri). Not all at one time. Commissioner Lane. Throughout the month. Cars held more than two days. Mr. Sanford. Yes ; that is correct. Commissioner Lane. And the average of them that would be held more than two days, the average time you think, would be four days? Mr. Sanford. Yes. Mr. Marble. You figure, then, that there are about 68,000 car-days per month — is that right — that are used for storage purposes in this citv? Mr. Sanford. Well, I figure twenty-six days to the month, without counting any Sundays or holidays. Mr. Marble. Coming down to the month that is on the calendar, and the days that cars are on the track, used for storage, how many car-days per month do you say are used for storage in this city ? Mr. Sanford. I do not know how many cars have been detained this month, but you multiply by 2^ and you have it, a general average of 2i. Mr. Marble. Can you estimate that number, and total it? Mr. Sanford. Beyond four days? Mr. Marble. Can you get a statement along that line for us, and give it to us exactly? Mr. Sanford. Yes; I can. Commissioner Lane. Let us have that for a period of three months. Mr. Sanford. Now, let me understand. You wish a stat«Mn(Mit of the cars that have accrued car service, and the time that they have been detained, for a period of three months. Commissioner Lane. Yes. Mr. Sanford. And the days that they have been detained? Commissioner Lane. We do not mean the specific cai>;; we just want the total number and the number of days that they have been detained. Mr. Sanford. All right, sir. Commissioner Lane. You can furnish that, ran you? Mr. Sanford. Do you wish that by days or months, or just one week? 336 CAB SHORTAGE. Commissioner Lane. If you can give it to us by days, so many cars l)er day on an average, say, for the month of September. Mr. Sanford. I will see that you have it this afternoon. Mr. Marble. So that we can say that for the month of October, for instance, the cars detained in Chicago amounted to so many cars for one day. We wish that so that we can determine to what extent cars are used for warehouse purjjoses. You can furnish us those figures, can you? Mr. Sanford. Yes ; I can. I will give them to you by 2 or 3 o'clock. Mr. Marble. Do you, from your standpoint, hold that there is an evil here for which the receivers are responsible, which aggravates the transportation situation, so far as the shippers are concerned? Mr. Sanford. I think that there could be a good many cai-s — a good many cars could be reassigned more promptly or loaded more promptly. Mr. Marble. Who is responsible for the fact that they are not ? Mr. Sani-ord. AVell, I think it lays mostly with the railroads and the consignees. Mr. Biddle's remarks on the subject of so many con- signees not stocking much freight, I think, are very much to the point. There are many consignees that take care of large quantities or raw material, fuel, etc. There are others that hold large quan- tities in cars all the time. By large quantities I mean five or six days' supply^. Mr, ]VIarble. And the railroad responsibility is what? Mr. Sanford. The railroads are responsible in that the yards become congested and they find it impossible to regularly and rapidly give the switching service at the terminals. Mr. Marble. Does that at all come from the use of the cars as warehouses by those shippers? Mr. Sanford. It comes from delays in getting reconsigning orders and accepting freight before unloading when it arrives at desti- nation. Mr. Marble. "\Miat action do you see that the railroads can take to help remove that evil? Mr. Sanford. I would minimize the reconsigning and raise the demurrage rate. Mr. Marble. That is all, I think. Mr. Marble. Capt. G. J. Grammer. head of the freight traffic department of the New York Central Lines, was subpoenaed, but I learn that he is ill and confined to his room, and for that reason we will have to excuse him. J. W. MiDOLEY, called as a witness, being duly sworn, was ex- amined, and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Midgley, where do you reside ? Mr. Midgley. In Chicago. Mr. Marble. And what is your business? Mr. MiiKJLEY. That is pretty hard to tell. Mr. Marble. Is it recently been that of i«?suing letters in relation to the car clearing houses, and the car pools, and the car diversioi^ evil, has it not ? Mr. Midgley. Yes, sir. CAR SHORTAGE. 337 Mr. Marble. Is that at all as a i*e.sult of an employment by railroad systems ? Mr. MiDGLEY. Yes. sir. May I state how I conmienced? Mr. Marble. We will be very glad to have you do so. Mr. MiiwjLEY. Alx)ut six yeai*s ap:o certain gentlemen quite prom- inent in financial and railroad circli^s thotight there was not enough of a just return received from the use of railroad cars, and they aslced me to look into the causes and try and devise plans for stimulating the activity of freight cat's. A number of them got togi^ther, made an agivement, and asked me to spend a year, or possibly two, in that work. I have been at it, in all, six vears. The first residt of those efforts was a change in the method of com|)ensation for the exchange <.r use of freight cars from the mileage method to the j^er diem uiethml. From the inception of railroads until, I think, July 1, 11)01. or 1J)0^ — I am not sure as to the year — the rule was to pay for the use of a car when it left the home rails by the miles run. The rate was finally fixed at G mills per car jx'r mile run. If the csir did not run, if it was kept idle for months, or even yeai-s, no compensation was paid to the owner for the use of his car; and that frequently occurr;»d. There was every incentive not to let a car run, because the user did not have anything to pay for it — did not pay anything for it if it did not run. There were railroads in this city — some had ample warehous<» room or storage room. In order to secure business they would give free warehouse room — free storage to the shippers. Other railroads that did not have storage room would offer their cai*s; that is, the cai-s of other companies. In order to put a stop to that practice denuirrage associations were organized over the cotnitry, but that did not release the cars when they went away from home. I advwated a delay payment, but the mistake made was in fixing the rate so low. When I got the movement around to a point where 1 was sure it could be inaugurated, because it was not a movement that ivquired unanimity — it did not require unanimous action, as any number of railroads — a half a dozen — coidd have started it. When I got it to the point when the largest systems, ea.st and west, were in favor of the change proposed the American Railway Association st«'j)ped in and slid they would take charge of it, and they inaugu- rated what is called the |^r diem rules of car movement and fixed the rate at 20 cents per car per day — a ridiculously low rate. Of coui*se. that was more than chnmic borrowers had paid; in fact, they had paid almost — very little of anything. Take the roads in New Kngland. Throughout New England there were small warehouse rwnns near the great mills — manufacturing establishments. So, when the cotton came from the South or Southwest it was held in the cai's on track, at the convenience of manufactiirers, until it was con- -umed in the mills. It might take three months, as it frequently did. No return was made to the owners of those cars — western cars or -oiithern cai's — because it is a rule in raih'oading that the initial road -liall furnish the car and let it run through to destination. Now, they complained — those New England roads — that they did not iuive warehouse room, and that to charge them 20 cents a day wouhl l)e a fearful hardship. They wanted to pay only 10 cents a (lay. I wanted 30 cents a day. Thirty cents a day would have been an ieration to transact the business of the eomitry If they were proi)erly liandled. It is a fact wlilcli can not be InipreswHl too strongly ui)on the attention of the managers. Its admission in the absence of a com- mon use of equli)ment Is an Incontrovertible argument in fav()r of Government ownerslilp. Now, you have repeated that stateuient at various tiuies in succeed- ing lettei-s. It is unnecessary for me to quote all of them to remind you of them, but I will ask you if this is still your opinion that there IS sufficient equipment provuled its use were stiuiulated as it is pos- sible to do? Mr. MiDGLEY. I do not hesitate to rej^eat that very statement. While I am adverse, and utterly opposed on principal, to Ciovernment ownership, I say that if the railroad managers do not rise to the situation, and do their utmost to perform their duties properly, then they furnish the best possible argument for Government control of their properties. In other words, it is now incuml)ent upon the railway managei's and the railway men to do what woukl lye done if there were common control of the railroads of the comitrv. Now, if there were connnon control, of course there would be no use of ditfer- entiating between the equipment of various lines; but there is a great deal involved in the details that T do not want to discuss at this time, or to now burden the Commissicm with — details that e.xist under the present arrangement. Mr. Marble. You have lK>en advocating what might be called a " car pool," have vou not i Mr. MiDGLEY. t do not like the term "pool." Car clearing house Is a much better term. 340 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. The situation now under discussion, and the point toward which the investigation is directed, is as to the best methods to meet the present emergencies and those which may arise in the future. Under the i)resent methods, it appears to have become un- safe for a road to let its cars go to a connecting road, because it can not do so without the fear of being robbed of its equipment. It is not sure of getting an equivalent either in the shape of equipment or of a money return. Mr. MiDGLEY. The road should be made good for the loss of its equipment. Mr. Marble. And should be made good in equipment, and not in money ? Mr. MiiKJLEY. Oh, that is not correct. They should be made good in their equipment or in money, for the loss of earnings that they would otherwise derive had they not been deprived of the equipment. For example, I have no objection to mentioning the Illinois Central as an illustration. That road provides each year a sufficient equipment in anticipation of its increased business. It is not fair to the Illinois Central, which is a large producing road or, as is termed in railway parlance, " an originating road," that there should be a balance of from 10,000 to 12,000 freight cars against it; that is to say, that num- ber of its cars in excess of the number of foreign cars held by it being on other roads. It can not take care of the business for which it built its own equipment. It loses traffic, and I say that the chronic borrower should be compelled, in emergencies like the present, to compensate the roads for the loss of the equipment. Mr. Marble. I will ask you, Mr. Midgley, as to this statement that you have made- that there are enough freight cars in operation to transact all the business of the country, provided they were properly handled. Do you find experienced railroad men agreeing with you in that view of the situation? Mr. Midgley. They have written me to that effect, and their state- ments are in print. Those statements are contained in the printed proceedings of various organizations of railway men. Mr. Marble. Have you obtained tho'^e vicAvs in such a way that you feel free to mention the names of the railway men agreeing with you ? Mr. MmoLEY. No, I have not ; I am sorry to say. Mr. Marble. It has been confidential? Mr. Midgley. It was on the principle of the Pullman Company. If each railroad had to provide its own sleepers it would require three or four times the equipment that the Pullman Company owns or controls, but by receiving or sending them wherever they are needed, when there is a demand in one pmce and a deficiency in the other, and using them in that way, they succeed in transacting the sleeping-car business of the country in a much more economical man- ner and with a far less number of cars. Noav, then, if there was a conmion use of freight-car equipment, properly conducted in all its details, it would have the same or a corresponding effect on the freight business. Commissioner Lane. Do you think that under such an arrange- ment there would be a sufficiency of cars for the proper movement of crops in the autunni of each year? CAB SHORTAGE. 341 ^Ir. MiDOLEY. I think so, approximately; but that condition can never be brought about unless autocratic authority is given to some one in charge. They will have to cut out a great numy arrangements which have been made and doubtless some of those practices will be abandoned, which are now in vogue, and which, in my opinion, the law does not sustain — namely, concessions made to shippers by the traffic men in order to secure business. Commissioner Lane. In the matter of the time that they allow a car to stand on the track ^f Mr. MiiKiLEY. Yes; for one thin^. Commissioner Lane. Do you think that prevails to any considera- ble extent i Mr. MiDGLEY. It prevails all over the countiy, but more particu- larly in the East, ijerhaps, than in the West. Now, take the situation in 5>\nv York. Tlie rule of the lines terminating in New York is to allow free storage on export grain for (U) days from the date of the bill of lading. The western car gets tluMv and there are no facilities, no warehouse room, and the car is held there. Free storage is given to the shipjjer. Commissioner Lane. Free storage in the cars? Mr MiDGLEY. In the cars, if there is no other way of unloading or transferring the grain. Commissioner Lane. That is published in the tariff, is it not? Mr. Midgley. I believe it is. In any event it is the rule that is undei*stood and is some way is published in New York. Now that does not exist at the Southern points, like New Orleans. My impres- sion is the rule there is twenty days — storage of twenty days, and they propose to reduce that to ten. Mr. Marble. Do they actually store grain in cai*s a great deal, do you know ? Mr. Midgley. Well, I could not, of course, state from personal knowledge for the last two years, because, on account of my defective sight, I have been unable to travel. Mr. Marble. But that is according to your information? Mr. Midgley. P>oin my information and belief. Mr. Marble. Your information and belief is that they actually do store a great deal of grain in cai*s at these ix)ints? Mr. Midgley. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Can you tell us the name of an authority or ass(X'iation or an individual who would i)e able to inform us as to the numl)er of cai*s held in New York for storage purposes? Mr. MiwJLEY. I should think the manager of the Cixr Service Asso- ■ iation at that point, whose duties correspond with those of Mr. San- ford, who just testified. Mr. ALxRBLE. Without mentioning names, I will ask von if these railroad officials who agree with you that there is enough equipment in the country if it were properly used to do the business are exjx'ri- ciiced railroad men, and men of authority and standing among rail- road men? Mr. MiDf;LEY. They are among, I think, the greatest operating offi- cials, and they are men who handle the <-i\v< and lune charge of the distributing of cars. Mr. Marble. Of the larger systems? Mr. Midgley. Yes; the largest that we have. There is another thing. Take it in Chicago; the terminals are crowded during their 342 CAB SHORTAGE. Imsy soason, nearly all or at least some parts of tl>e year. The termi- nals are crowded for the reason that through shipments are brought to the city that never ought to come within its limits. Assume that the car is loaded or originates in New York, destined for Omaha or any western territory. That car should not come into this city at all. It should go to a central point outside of the city and there be deliv- ered by the eastern road to the western road by which it is to be for- w^arded, and it should go through without coming into the city terminals at all. Under such an arrangement those cars would go through in train lots, and these larger terminals in the city would be at least partially relieved from that congestion. It takes an average of two weeks, ordinarily, to get a car — say a car of flour from Minneapolis destined for New York — it takes two weelcs to get it through Chicago on an average. I think they will tell the gentlemen of the Commission that that is the fact. They have so stated to me when last I was in Minneapolis and talked with them. Now, there is plenty of room outside. There is a plant outside of this city where I think there are 18 parallel tracks about 3 miles long, and it IS called a clearing house, for the express purpose of handling such traffic and furnishing facilities for the movement of through freight. That plant remains idle. Commissioner Lane. Why don't the railroads avail themselves of it? Mr. MiDGLEY. I would like something easier to answer than that. Some things are unaccountable. Commissioner Lane. How long would it take a car to get through that clearing point that you speak of ? Mr. Midgley. They could put it through in twenty-four hours, and just see how they could economize. The way they have to do now, suppose a train load comes in on an eastern road ; it will have a num- ber of cars destined for western roads. The switch engine will have to go to each one of those western roads with these different cars, whereas the same switch engine could distribute those cars at one central point. In the way oi economizing, under that arrangement, they could also bring back from the southern or western roads such cars as were destined for the eastern road. It is incomprehensible to me why the railroads do not avail themselves of that arrangement. Commissioner Harlan. Is not that done to some extent in the I2ast by the so-called belt lines? Mr. Midgley. It is done to a limited extent, but the practice is not indulged in as it should be. Commissioner Harlan. Would you say that it is a small percent- age of the cars that should be transferred to connecting carriers at this point? Mr. Midgley. I say that no business should be brought into the city, into such crowded terminals as we have now, such as we have here, that is likely to be forwarded to any western point. I am not speaking of other than through shipments. Take our wholesale mer- chants, they are antedeluvian in their methods. Instead of carting back and forth, between railroad depots and their wholesale houses all their goods, they should simply have some place, have a ware- house at some point like that, and then instead of storing the freight in the ci'owded terminals it should be forwarded to a central point. CAB SHOBTAGB. 343 Now, there is a plant out there that has been established for that purpose, and for some reason, I know not why, the railroads will not use it, or at least they have not. Commissioner Harlan. To return again to the belt lines. ^Vhat percentage of cars, of through cars, are handled by those lines? Mr. MrocLEY. That I could not state. I have no official informa- tion of that kind. Commissioner Harlan. You think it is a small percentage of cars that are handled by these belt lines that could be so handled? Mr. MrocLET. Yes; I do. Mi*. Marble. In 3'our letter number 58, after quoting Mr. Fish, you make an argument or a statement that the increase in motive power and in car capacity has kept pace with the marvelous growth of ton- nage oflFered for transportation. Mr. MiDGLEY. Yes. Mr. Marble. If I read that letter aright, you quote Mr. Fish as making that statement for the Illinois Central. Mr. MrocLEY. No ; I quote the Interstate Commerce Commission, and the figures which they furnished me. Mr. Marble. Mr. Fish's argument is what? Mr. MiDGLEY. I might explain that if you will allow me, as to Mr. Fish's connection with that matter. Mr. Fish was one of the pio- neers in this movement. Mr. Fish, Mr. J. P. Morgan, Mr. E. H. Harriman, Mr. J. J. Hill, Mr. Ripley, and a number of other gentle- men engaged me originally to look into this matter. Mr, Fish, at the outset, tried to emphasize and impress upon me the necessity of or^nizing a clearing house. He is a financial man and he wanted things settled as banKs do, through a clearing house. One year ago the office I's representing one of the foremost roads in the American Railway Association came to me and asked me to continue the special work I had been engaged ih, with a view of promoting the formation of car pools. I had announced my intention of retiring last spring. "WTien this gentleman came and urged me to advocate, as I say, the formation 01 car pools, that was the situation of affairs. I said to them that I had letters from Mr. Fish received some years ago, along that line, and that I thought I could interest him in the proposition. They said if I would take up the matter, by the ensuing fall doubtless enough roads would become interested to justify Mr. Fish in calling a meeting, and organizing a car pool between such roads as would be willing to enter into an agreement at that time, and that within five years it would comprise all the roads of the country. 1 wrote to Mr. Fish immediately after that conference. He wanted to cooperate, and his letter, which was written to the American Rail- way Association, at their last convention, was responsive to my re- quest advocating a car clearing house. Now that explains my present position and connection. I have accomplished what those gentlemen asked me to do, because everybody is interested in a car pool now. They laughed at me a year ago and they said it was foolish, and it was a matter which was ridiculed. They said it was impracticable. I do not think anvone would state that now. It is perfectly feasible, and always was, if the roads had taken hold of it There are two men in the country that can do more than any other power and authority to alleviate this situation for next year. 344 CAR SHORTAGE. If Mr. E, H. Ilariiman. and Mr. J. J. Hill, with the influence they have, and the following that they can at any time control, will au- thorize a competent party to work at this situation, and thereafter support him in his work, it can be done. Air. Marble. How do you explain the fact, Mr. Midgley, that Mr. Hill's railroad, the Great Northern, has 3,000 more freight cars in its possession than it has lost of its own ? Mr. Midgley. He will not allow his cars to run east of the Minne- sota transfer. Mr. Marble. Then how do j^ou explain the fact that his road is so far behind in its delivery of freight? Mr. Midgley. Of course, I do not know as to the details, but Mr. Hill will say that the Northern Pacific, also the Great Northern and the Burlington, have their box cars, or the majority of them (I think certainly all their new box cars), of 80,000 pounds' capacity. They are unwilling to exchange those for a small-capacity car, and Mr. Hill will not allow his cars to run east, either, A man can unload at Minneaf)olis into the mills most of the grain that the Great Northern brings, and that grain is there converted into flour at Minneapolis. Mr. AIarble. AMiat I am getting at is this: You look to improve- ment in the use of the equipment, to get better results from the cars ? Mr. Midgley. Yes. Mr. Marble. Now, a road like the Northern Pacific, which has about 6,000 more cars than it would be entitled to if it had only what it owns, is very far behind the public necessities in its service. It is so far behind that it is very unsatisfactory to the shippers there. Mr. Midgley. Well, Mr. Hill has peculiar theories of loading. Mr. Hill has a theory of loading which is peculiar to himself, although he has obtained better results because of the favorable location of the Great Northern Railway than has any other railroad on the con- tinent. That is my understanding. He will not allow a train to be forwarded (that was the rule at least — of coui'se, I do not know what is at the present time the rule), until the train is loaded to the rated capacity of the locomotive. He is therefore enabled to show a great deal better average per car than any other railroad does. Mr. Marble. A greater average load per train-mile ? Mr. Midgley. Per train-mile. Mr. Marble. And it results in cars waiting under load, until the train can be filled up? Mr. Midgley. Oh, yes. In the same way he will not allow cars to be run westward until they are loaded and at one station, I think it is called Hamilton, they are all sent in there and loaded in full car- loads and sent out .in train loads. Other roads, like the Soo Line parallel with the Great Northern, in some respects follow its policy, but their management think it better to return cai*s empty so as to get more grain and bring it in as quickly as possible. Does that answer your question? Mr. Marble. That answers the question, I think. In your circular letter No. 59, under date of December 10, 190G, you say : It Is well known that shippers are largely responsible for a situation against which they loudly declaim. This fact was plainly i>olnted out in an interview recently held with a prominent manager, who is reported to have said : •' Dur- ing nine days out of ten freight cars are heing held for loading or unloading CAR SHORTAGE. 345 or are tied np in sHlinjis waiting for spjuv at teruiinals. nml If 8lil|>i»ers and consignees f«»ulil liasten tlu* loading or nnloading of cars 8») as to reiluce the average time of detention from nine days to eiglit days, tliey would inuntnliately obtain the use of ISD.iXM) cars." Do you know whether the statements in that quotation arc true? Is it your opinion that those figures are corrt^ct ? Mr. MiiMiLEv. I Ix^lieve them to l>e true, and it necessarily follows that cars averaging only twenty-two hours per day Mr. Marble. You mean 22 miles per day ? Mr. MiDGiJ^Y, Well, the movement, the average movement of cars, the mileage made by cars, according to the latest report that I have seen, is iu>out 24 miles per day. These statistics were published recentlv by the American Railway Association, and they are in their printed proceedings. Mr. Marblk. That is a mile an hour? Mr. MiD(;iJ^:v. Yes. Mr. Marbl£. You spoke of this as an interview recently held. Are you free to give us the name of the manager from whom that quota- tion was taken? Mr. MiiMii.EY. I would rather not. My policy has been in writing, not to use the names of the gentlemen quoted, unless I had special permission to do so. Mr. Marble. I will not ask for that if you prefer not to give it. Mr. Fish's name was used in one of these letters. Mr. MiDc.LEY. I have no hesitation to use that. You see T have no official position and what I am doing grows out of the fact that cer- tain parties, who are very influential, have confidence in my recom- mendations. Connnissioner IjAne. As I understand your statement here to-dav, it is to this effect : That, unless the railioads of the country can join together and cooperate to bring about a better use of the facilities, a recurrence from year to year of the conditions which now prevail will lx» inevitable? Mr. MiDULEV. Undoubtedly so. Commissioner Lane. If they do not unite, is there any legislation which you would sugge.st, by which they can be compelled to unite, or some power i)laced over them which can carry out the necessary rules ? Mr. MinoLEV. "Well, the plan I contemplate has been submitted to a special committe of five. They are to formulate j)lans for a cleiiring house. On the strength of the letter which Mr. Fish wrote on my suggestion to the American Railway Assm-iation at their semiannual convention last October, a special committee of five was appointed to formulate a plan, with the idea that any numlK'r of roads, few or many — whoever chose to tmite therein — might have an opportunity to do so. Commissioner Hari^n. A\nien is that .special committee to rcport to the larger committee of the association? Mr. Mii)(;ley, Xo time was specified. Conjiiiissioner Harlan. It was said in Minneapolis that one of the railroads — I guess all of them in the Northwest — was built far in advance of the needs of that particular coimtry. It was said that one of the railroads had to chase the Indians away as it went along in its 346 CAR SHORTAGE. construction, and I think it was understood that that is true of most of the Western roads. Is that your opinion ? Mr. MiDGLEY. It is. Commissioner Harlan. You think that they are pioneer roads, built in advance of the needs of that particular country ? Mr. MiDGLEY. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Therefore they have resulted in building up the country. Now, has the policy of the roads changed? Do they try to keep in advance of the needs of the country ? Or do they try simply to grow as the country grows ? Or have they adopted the policy of keepmg just behind until the need spurs them on, and then increasing their facilities? As far as you know, has there been any change in that connection among western railroad men ? Mr. MiDGLEY. I know that the policy you indicate, thirty or twenty- five years ago, was correct, because I was then identified with the largest western road — the Northwestern road — and we had built across Minnesota and across Kansas, and in passing across Kansas herds of buffalo would frequently stop the train. In the first tariffs that we issued we provided a rate for buffalo bones — the first tariffs that I issued as commissioner of the southwestern railroad system. There have been no such conditions existing there for many years. That road was built in advance of civilization. The Winona and St. Paul was built west of Winona for a distance of from 100 to 150 miles beyond any house. I w^as out there at the terminus of that road, at Lake Kampeska, and the road was just laid on the rolling prairie. There was not a yard of grading that was done. Now, I think that Mr. Hill is a much better authority than I am on that, and he says that the railroads have not kept pace with the growth of the country, and can not ; that it is a physical impossibility. Commissioner Harlan. Of course, among merchants and manu- facturers, I suppose their policy would be to wait until the need had developed for their product and then make their arrangements to supply it. Now is that the present policy of the railroad — to wait until time has shown a need of greater lacilities, and then supply those facilities? Mr. MiDGLEY. Oh, I think the railroads are doing their very utmost, as they understand it, to relieve the situation, and to be equal to the demands of the shipping public, but the trouble is they have brought upon themselves such a condition of affairs. Take this city and the shipping zone — what is called the Chicago zone, or nearly so. They have induced manufacturers to come from almost every eastern point and locate along their lines on the positive assurance that they would have special facilities, and these manufacturers never provided them- selves with warehouses, for example, to store coal. Now, you can not change these conditions in a minute. There are a number of those things that grew up that I think are not directly in contraven- tion of the law now, perhaps, and many of them that I think are. They will have to be cured, but it will take time in order to do it. Those conditions all contribute to this delay, of course. Commissioner Lane. Do you mean that there are a large number of cars that are used as warehouses upon which demurrage is not paid ? Mr. MiDGLEY. That I would not know, but I could give an illustra- CAR SHORTAGE. 347 tiou of the way they do. Oiio railroad that opposed the change from (he mileage basis to the per diem basis did so on the statement that thev had induced manufacturers to locate along their lines and upon their terminals on the assurance that they would take care of them in providing any fuel. Now, that road which gave the assurance does not originate'any coal, and it simply used the cars of eastern roads, like cai-s of the Illinois Central or tlie Chicago and Eastern Illinois, or any of those cars, which brought in the coal, and gave to their industries those cars. They said: "We are not going to charge demurrage." ^Vhen they were requested to charge demurrage for the detention of cars, that was their reply. They said : " If we do that, we will lose their outbound shipments." So, you see, they bought the outbound shipments by the use of the other company's coal cars. Conmiissioner Lake. That, of course, is contrary to the law now. You do not know whether that condition still prevails or not on that road? Mr. MiDfiLEY. No; the per diem changed that. They had to pav for the car each day. You see, when j'ou charge so much per day it is for each day that the car is away from home. They could not afford, then, to give it freely to the shippers, or anyone else. Commissioner Lane. Still, there are a large number of foreign cars on all the roads that are being used as warehouses. Mr. MiDCLEY. Yes; necessarily. Commissioner Lane. And they are charged for them ? Mr. MiDOLEY. Well, take the case of the refrigerator freight — fruit from California. Any shipper will pay a dollar a day as demurrage for his car, and keep it for seven or eight days or perhaps two weeks. I think I was told this very recently, that the averaffo detention is about two weeks on those shipments, because it would cost the shippers from $5 to $6 a day to store their stuff in a cold- storage plant. The shipper would rather pay the railroad company to use the refrigerator car for storage, or as a warehouse, at the rate of $1 a day, than to pay several dollars a day to a warehouse. In that manner he makes several dollars by the transaction, and the practice has grown to such an extent that a car from California to New York does not make over three or four round trips per year. I was told that yesterday. Mr. Marble. In your letter No. 59, of December 10, 1906, you say : Assuredly Mr. E. H. Harrlman and Mr. J. J. Hill could put firmly on Its feet a car <-learing bouse whenever they choose to take the initiative, and it is gratifying to be able to state that both gentlemen cordially favor such course. Now, yesterday afternoon, in Minneapolis, Mr. Hill took that as being news to him. I would like to ask you how you got the informa- tion that he favors such a course. Mr. MiDOLEY. Favors a car clearing house? Mr. Marble. Yes. Mr. MiDOLEY. From Mr. Hill direct. Mr. Marble. Mr. Hill told you tlrat, did he? Mr. MiDGLEY. Yes; he did. The last time I talked with him I asked him if he favored a clearing-house system of cars. " I do," he said. Mr. Marble. Mr. Harriman has also communicated with you directly? 348 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. MiDCLEY. It was on Mr. Harriinan's direct request that I called a meeting here October 16, which led to the adoption of the 50-cent per day rule. Mr. Marble. As to the clearing house, he also favors that, you say. You know that from him? Mr. MiDGLEY. Mr. Ilarriman favors the clearing-house method very much. He told me directly, for the first time in his own office, " AVhat I want is one settlement between the railroad I represent and the others, instead of settling here and there and with Everyone." The clearing-house principle is one which he cordially indorses. (The Commission thereupon adjourned until 2 p. m. December 20, 1906.) AFTER RECESS. December 20, 1900 — 2 o\-locl' p. m. Mr. Marble. Mr. Midgley wishes to make a correction in his testi- mony of this morning. Commissioner Lane. Stand right where you are, Mr. Midgley. Mr. MmcLEY. I want to explain the apparent difference in opinion between Mr. J. J. Hill's statement, as communicated by Mr. ]\Iarble, and my written declaration that he favored a car pool. My informa- tion came very recently — within three weeks — from a traffic manager whose superior officer is very close to Mr. Hill, and this confidential representative stated that Mr. Hill did approve of a car pool. I took that in connection with Mr. Hill's declaration to me two years ago, or more, for I have not seen him since, that he was in favor of the clearing-house system. Of course, the car pool or car clearing house is only one phase of the clearance system. The clearing system to which I referred, when I spoke to Mr. Hill two years ago, related more particularly to the settlement of joint freight car accounts. I make that statement now both in justice to Mr. Hill and myself. Personally my impression would be that Mr. Hill does not favor a car pool, and I was surprised when this statement, to which I have just referred, was made to me, because he does not pool — that is, the equip- ment of the Northern Pacific and (ireat Northern and Burlington is not pooled, wjiereas the equipment of the Harriman lines is pooled. There is a car clearing house, a clearing house for the joint use of the eciuipment of the Harriman lines, and there is also now, and has been for years, of the Pennsylvania lines and all lines affiliated with the Pennsylvania system, and there is to-day between the New York Central lines. Mr. Marble. That is all, is it, Mr. Midgley ? Mr. Midgley. Yes; that is all. Commissioner Lane. The Commission, I might say, is keeping in touch with the situation so far as the coal famine is concerned in the Northwest, and we are just now in receipt of a telegi'am which says that severe storms are prevailing on some of the branch lines, and that towns located at the terminals of such lines are suffering from the lack of fuel. But it would appear that the situation — from informa- tion that we have from other sources — has been very much relieved within the last forty-eight or sixty hours, and with the exception of one or two places there is, I hope, no danger of a coal famine. CAB SHORTAGE. 349 John M. Daly, eallocl and swoni as a witness, was examined by Mr. Marble and testified as follows: Mr. Marble. Mr. Dalv, what is vour fidl name) Mr. Daly. John M. Daly. Mr. Marble. Where do you live, Mr. Daly? Mr. Daly. Chicago. Mr. Marble. "NMiat is your business? Mr, Daly. At present I am car accountant for the Illinois Central Railroad. Mr. Marble. As such car accountant are you familiar with the car situation at the present time on the Illinois Central Railroad? Mr. Daly. I anu I have had twelve yeaiv experience previous to this as superintendent of transportation for the company, and as such I am to-day to a greater or lexs extent enj]^ired in the investigation of all delays to freiglit service and freight equipment. Mr. Marbi^. 1 will ask you if you consider that the Illinois Central Railroad is at the present time short of rars? Mr. Dalv. We are short of cars to protect our traffic to-day to the extent of probably 10 to 15 per cent. That is not owing to the fact that we have not provided sufficient equipment. We own enough cars, but we have not got the cars now. Mr. Marble. \ on own them, but you have not got them? Mr. Daly. That is correct : yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you know where they are? Mr. Daly. Yes, sir; we know where they are. We own 62,070 freight cars, which is an average of about 1'2\ cars per mile of track. We have 24,83.5 of the.se cars on the tracks of loreign railroads, located on some 275 roads. I have here our location statement, show- ing the number of each kind of cars — Ik)x. furniture, stock, fruit, re- frigerator, flat, and coal cai-s. and the total cars located on each individual railroad in the United States and Canada. The statement also shows the numl)er of other cai-s on our tracks, but not by classes. I have taken those figures as gi'oss, because it is very difficult from the numbei-s of other cars to determine whether they are box cars, fruit, or refrigerator cars. It would take so much time, labor, and ti-ouble that I have here shown simply the total. This statement shows the total number of Illinois Central cars away from home to be 24,835 this year as against 22,294 last year. Among that number are 1(5,000 l>ox cars away from home — no, the box cai-s are not assorted in that way. They are on the total here. Among them are 15,700 box cai-s, 866 furniture cars, 277 stock cars, ()()7 fruit cars, l,(>7n refrigerator cars, 648 flat cars, 4,008 coal cars, or a total of 24,835. On the 15th day of Noveml)er that total was 24,329, so we have increased about 500 of our cai-s away from home in approximately fifteen days. Mr. Marble. How many foreign cars are there on the tracks of the Illinois Central? Mr. Daly. We have 15,675. On the 10th day of Deceml)er, 1006, there were 15,675 as against 14,015 on the 25th day of November. Mr. Marble. The balance against you is about 10,000 cars? Mr. Daly. About 10,000 cars. In other words, while we own 02,070 cars we have got about 52,000 of our own and foreign cars to take care of the traffic. That condition, of course, is due to our 350 OAR SHORTAGE. being an originating road. We originate raw material — cotton, lumber, and coal — and commodities of that nature which find a distant market. For instance the lumber business — ten years ago or twelve years ago GO per cent of it, at least, was disposed of on our own tracks, practically at local stations, and at important ter- minals like Chicago and St. Louis. To-day over 65 per cent of it is disposed of at distant markets, and the markets continue to get more and more distant each year as the scarcity of lumber in the eastern districts increases and as our patrons on our line and the shippers increase the market by sending salesmen into that territory. To-day we ship any quantity of lumber for Boston and the New England States, and a large quantity goes into Canada, Montreal, and Toronto. A good portion of our lumber, being of the yellow pine character, is consumed at the factory wherever there is a car- manufacturing plant. They w^ant that character of lumber, that quality of lumber, and consequently we must let our cars go through, as the lumbermen object (and I think fairly so — I think they are justified in it) to any transfer of the lumber. It damages the lumber more or less every time it is handled, and then, of course, it is nec- essary in cases like that, if we put it into another car at the transfer point it is frequently the case that the car is held at the junction or transfer point for some time, and it would be much better for the shipper it Ave could let the car go through from the originating point. Commissioner Harlan. Are you able to supply cars for cotton; for the cotton men and the lumber mills, and so forth ? Mr. Daly. Very much better this year than last year both in the cotton and in the lumber traffic. A^Tiile we are not loading any of our cars, that is to say we are not doing it intentionally, for far dis- tant points, w^e are aiming to pick up, and are picking up, a lot of foreign cars and a.%? endeavoring to use them or apply them to the shipments for distant points, and are keeping our own cars at home for the reason that if we load an Illinois Central car on the 1st day of November for a New England point or an eastern point the chances are nine out of ten that we won t get that car back before January or February, and if we had had it at home we would have taken care of six or eight commercial loads on our own lines. So that we are aiming to keep our own cars as much at home as possible. Still they get away, even at that. But the business, as a rule, is being moved far better this year than last year. "We have no congestion at any point on our system. Our power is better than ever before — in better condition. We have got more power, but with all that, as I say, we are short of cars, possibly 15 per cent. In other words, we have about 2,800 cars ordered to-day more than we are able to supply, but from the knowledge of the orders and the nature of them I am satisfied that if we had that 3,000 cars to-day to clean up we would not be short 300 or 400 cars to-morrow with the normal supply we are giving. It is simply when you run behind 1,000 or 2,000 cars that tliose conditions arise. Mr. Marble, If you had one-third of the cars which you have pro- vided on your road and which you have lost, you would have enough to handle the business? Mr. Daly. Yes; we would; and if we had the 10,000 cars back that belong to us we would have without doubt ample equipment to take care of all of the business. OAR SHORTAGE. 351 Mr. Marble. Is it the policy of the niinois Central Railroad to provide cars to handle its business throughout the busy season ? Mr. Daly. It has, as I say, a sufficient equipment. Fifty thousand is more than ample to take care of our requirements from the 1st day of April, or the middle of March, until aoout the middle of Novem- ber, for the reason that the entire produce of the Yazoo Delta and the cotton crop all through that section moves from about the 1st of Octo- ber until after the holidays, about January 1, as a rule. In this the weather conditions are a prominent factor. There are apt to be con- stant rains that prevent picking. Now, after we get through with the cotton and the cotton-seed products both for export and for the compresses along our line, it is very easy sailing for us on the car f reposition. ^Ve have a surplus then for the balance of the year, n other words, we build these 10,000 surplus cars to take care of us during four months of the year, and when we are through with tUat, when we are through with our rush and the other shippers require cars, we have always got a surplus of them on our lines during the balance of the time. Mr. Marble. You do not intend to build the cars to rent? Mr. Daly. No, sir; we do not. Mr. Marble. But, according to the system in vogue, you do rent cai*s? Mr. Daly. Yes; because it is a question of participatina: in through traffic. We originate the traffic, and in orcier to participate in the haul we should be obliged to furnish (and we are obliged to furnish) our quota of the cars engaged therein, but I do not think that it is fair tiiat one railroad should build sufficient cars to meet its demands during the season of maximum traffic and other roads to which it must necessarily give these cars in order to carry the product neglect to equip themselves with sufficient cjirs in order that they may take advantage of the road that has done so. It is my thought and my opinion that each should bear its proper proportion of the burden of taking care of the joint through traffic. Mr. Marble. And you regard that as the present situation? Mr. Daly. I do indeed. Of course if we should control it by re- fusing to handle traffic going to these distant points, it would be money in our pockets for us to do it — that is, if we could confine our- selves as far as possible to our local business — but we can not build up industries in the lumber business, such as we have done in the Soiith, where there are a number of new sawmills and industries which have been located on our lines, if we resort to that practice. Such industries and such development of any country has never been built up on the narrow-gauge system that might be resorted to. It would simply result in a restriction of traffic. You must carry their goods to whatever point they can sell them at the best advantage, for the reason that the farther the market is away, as a rule, the better the price is that they can get for that lumber as against their own home market. At least that is always what they have told me, and that is why they are anxious to get cars for the long-haul business. It is very frequently the case that in the distant markets consumers are willing to pay a better price than at the town adjacent to the point of production. 352 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Is it your experience that those cars sent to a distant point are returned to you as promptly as they might bo, and should be? Mr, Daly. They are not, as a rule. We can bring cars into Chi- cago for Milwaukee, or from a point that is 100 miles away, and get them back in fifteen davs or three weeks, whereas it takes ordinarily six weeks to three months on the more distant points. Mr, Marble. Do you know whether or not your cars are detained by other roads for their local business? Mr. Daly. AVell, you can ascertain pretty well from the records. Where you find that cars are making sev^eral movements from one railroiul to another it indicates clearly that the car is l>eing used locally by the two roads. That is an admitted fact on the part of transportation men, and more especially so in the last two or three years. Mr. Marble. I understand it, from what you say, to be your con- tention that you could even let your cars go out of your possession for the far distant shipments if you could get prompt return, and still the Illinois Central have enough cars to meet the demands upon it? Mr. Dai Y. I think that the rate in effect now will have a tendencv to bring them home — that is, to protect the roads owning them much better than heretofore. For instance, up to 1902 railroads paid for the use of cars on a mileage basis. If they hauled a car 10 miles on the first of the month, they paid 6 cents. If they allowed the car to stand the other twenty-nine days in the month on a siding they did not pay anything, and consequently under the mileage plan they could allow a car to stand on a side track for thirty days waiting for business and pay nothing for the use of it. On July 1, 1902, the various railroads went into the per diem agreement. That is an agreement to pay so much per day for the use of cars, and the rate was fixed at 20 cents, and that was as high a rate as the railroads owning cars could prevail upon the borrowing roads to agree to pa^^ That rate held in effect until July 1, 190(5, four years, when it was raised to 25 cents a day. But the roads owning about 1,350,000 cars out of the total of 1,800,000 cars came together at Chicago on Novem- l>er 9 of this year, and voluntarily agreed to raise the rate to 50 cents a day in view of these conditions and the car shortage, with the idea and HI order to expedite the return of cars. Now, that rate of 50 cents per day will have very little effect in getting the cars returned to the owner more projnptly for at least one or two years. The relief is going to come in another manner, which I will speak of. The small road that has heretofore been able to confiscate another company's cars for the four busy months in the year and to pay the company owning the cars 20 cents a day, or $24, causes the owner to lose $150 on each of the cars that the borrowing roads confiscate in that way — cars that the owner has built or bought to protect him during this particular busy season. I uiight illustrate that. Assume that I were operating a line of tug- boats at New Orleans. I find that during the summer months I can get along very nicely with ten tugs, and with that number take care of all the business in the harbor and handle it all right. But during the four busy winter months,, when the vessels are taking cotton cargoes, my 10 tugs are not sufficient to handle the business, and consequently I purchase five additional tugs. Now, we will say that these five tugs OAB SHORTAGE. 353 cost me $1,000 each, allowing the value of the car as a basis of illus- tration, and the depreciation on them and the repairs to them is equal to 10 per cent. With interest at 5 per cent, that makes the cost of owning a tug $150 per annum. Now, I let one of those tugs go out into the river with a tow, possibly to tow something to Mobile, and my friend over there on the 1st day of December takes the tug and keeps it in his service from the 1st of December until the 1st of April. He savs to me when he turns it back, that he will pay 20 cents a day for it, taking that as the fi.xed charge and saying that the interest is only $150 a year, divided by 305 days. Now, my contention is that he should have divided — and the various borrowing roads in compensating the owner for cars that are built for the four months business should divide — the $150 by the 120 days, and that makes it then a little over $1.25 per day; and if cars are permitted to stand on ter- minals, any of the surplus cars that are built for that season, and are delayed there for ten days, the road so delaying them then owes us $12.50, instead of 10 times 20, or $2. That is because somebody else doing business with us is obliged to pay into our treasury an amount to balance and make good the deficiency occasioned in that manner, and I believe that inside of a year or two this increase in the per diem rate will compel the roads that do not own equipment now, to build equipment. That in turn will relieve them of the necessity of confiscating the cars of other companies, and cars will come back more promptly, and we will be better protected. Commissioner Lane. Suppose you adopted some such plan as this, that during the last six months of the year you raised the per diem rate to $1.25? Mr. Daly. That is a very proper suggestion, and it is one that I worked out in committee at Denver at the last meeting. That is, I believe there should be two rates, because the road that builds cars for the busy season should be protected in the busy season with them. I do not want to advocate $1 per day the year around, for the reason that that would be sufficiently high to act as an incentive to the re- ceiving roads in the dull season to stop a commodity in transit and transfer it into their car, thereby delaying shipments and congesting terminals; and where there is such a shortage of labor, it would make it even still shorter. We, in turn, when the foreign car is delivered to us, would transfer its contents into an empty that we would have there, and that would be burning up money for no good. But if the rate were 50 cents per day for the six aull months and $1 per day for the six months of business, then it strikes me that you are meeting the proposition on a business basis, from a business man's standpoint, and in a proper manner. Mr. Marble. How can you get the consent of the various roads to the,se two rates? Mr. Daly. A\Tiy, there are two propositions now pending l)ofore the American Railway Association. The first is a 75-cent per day rate, and the roads an* voting on that proposition. Commissioner Harlan. The roads are voting on these projwsi- tions now? Mr, Daly. Yes; at a meeting in Chicacro the first proposition was to increase the rate from 25 to 35 cents, uut the executive officers of S. Doc. 333, 09-2 23 354 CAB SHORTAGE. the railroads said that that would not do — ^that it was not sufficiently high to bring about any results. Some wanted a dollar per day flat, for the year around, and so they compromised that by making the two propositions, which they said they would submit to the railroads that are members of the American Railway Association, and let them vote for both. Commissioner Harlan. How many does that association include? What proportion of the mileage ? Mr. Daly. Oh, it is all the mileage, practically — 98 or 99 per cent. They first have the 75-cent-per-day proposition to vote on as first choice. If that proposition gets the majority of the votes, then 75 cents will govern. Then they will vote again on the 50 cent rate ; and if the 75 rate does not govern, let us get the 50-cent rate. If that does not govern, it goes oack to 25 cents. There is not, however, in mj mind any question but what either the 50 cent or the 75 cent rate will prevail, because the roads owning 1,400,000 cars out of a possible 1,800,000 have already consented to and are paying to-day 50 cents, and we have every assurance that it will go through. But, as I say, the effect of that can not be felt at once, because they must have time to build cars, and they can not buy or build cars in less than ten months to a year, because the factories are blockaded with orders up to that time; but if it is found that a man can build and maintain his own car — the remedy for that is that when a man can build and maintain his own cars for less money than he can get them in any other manner he is going to build. Commissioner Harlan. Judging from your statement, I under- stand that you regard it to be the fact that we are presented now with an actual car shortage, taking the whole country over, Mr. Daly. Yes, sir ; absolutely. We have investigated and figured, and obtained a great many figures on the quastion of car shortage. Transportation men will all agree that the car shortage begins along every year about the 1st of December and it continues bad until the 1st of February, sometimes into even March or April. Now, that is during the winter months. Any road on a terminal can handle at lea«t 33 per cent more switching in the summer months than it can in the winter with the same crew and engine, with the same power. The same crew and engine will do it. In winter the switching is slower on account of the extreme conditions of the weather ; not so much now as in the ordinary winter weather. The cold congeals the lubrica- tion in the boxes of the car and retards their movement to that extent ; and where an engine can pull tAventy cars in summer, when the lubri- cation is soft on the journals and the cars run easy and free, it can only pull ten in winter. When switching cars and throwing them bacK in on tracks in the winter time they have got almost to run clear back with the train itself, because the car is so stiff that it will not run itself. Again, in winter time they have only from about 7 o'clock in the morning until 4 in the afternoon of daylight to work by. That is, nine hours as against from 4 in the morning until about half past 7 or 8 at night in the summer time of dajlight. Now. in all the various details of yard and switching work it is much easier and better to per- form the service required in the daytime than at night. In giving signals, seeing that the switches are properly set, and being able to see where your cars are, that the cars you are handling is going to hit, OAB SHORTAGE. 355 having switchmen boinp able to catch cars and ride in on them — all that is done a great deal quicker and easier and better, and I might say more safely, in the daytime than at night. Consequently, with theuse of hana lamps and working under those less favorable condi- tions which exist in the winter, a switchman will handle 50 ner cent less cars than he will in daj'time where he can see what he is aoing. Now all these things have to be taken into consideration by the practical railroad man in considering the problem of car shortage, and the thousand and other things that he is confronted with. Isot alone in terminals do weather conditions affect the handling of traffic materially. Take it, say, at the 1st of DecemWr or during the winter months — our tonnage has to be handled whether it is good weather or bad weather. The yard master and the train master and the chief dispatcher have to consider the weather, and if it is snowing at the north end and they have got a train starting out from the south, while the conditions at the south end may be favorable, they have got to reduce the tonna^ on that train so it can get through, and conse- quently the train will haul on an average of 25 per cent at least less in roaa service. So that that would account in a measure for the con- gestion occurring in the winter season, and of course the traffic is heavy. Still, in Alarch we will handle more traffic than in any other winter month of the season, and we can handle it then easier, as the conditions are more favorable. The question of car shortage is another difficulty. As I said before, the more distant the markets, the more distant markets found for any commodity, the more cars it will require to handle the same quantity. If, for instance, we had a million feet of lumber to move from Brook- haven, Miss., to Memphis, why, we could move it in thirty days in 10 cars. If they wanted that moved to Boston we could not move it in thirty days in less than 50 cars, or five times as many. As transporta- tion facilities improve and the rates are made such as to })ermit the shipping of proclucts through to distant markets, just that long we will have to prepare ourselves to build more cai*s for the same ton- nage, that is, the originating road must, or else they must get the cai-s back from their connections. Now, the question of delay on terminals. It seems rather ridicu- lous, with cars averaging less than 30 miles per day, to say that our freight trains are moving on all divisions of the system from 12 to 15 miles per hour; that is, all freight trains on all divisions. We have very little overtime; that is, where they are out so as to make less than 10 mile.s an hour. Commissioner Lane. Take your cotton trains running from Mem- phis, what will they average? Mr. Daly. They will average about 12 miles per hour. Commissioner Lane. And what is the distance? Mr. Daly. Four hundred and fifty-seven miles. Commissioner Lane. What time does it take you tA make that run for each cotton train? Mr. Daly. Well, that would be pretty hard to estimate. In the running time it would be, I should imagine, al)out fortj'-eight hours. Commissioner Lane. I mean, take the average train, at the most congested period of the cotton season, we will say along in October or >(0vember? 356 CAB SHOBTAGB. Mr. Daly. One train might average six days, and another train might average ten days. It depends on the manner in which they get in and out of the terminals. That is a point I think which needs ex- planation for this reason : If a car is only moving two houre out of every twenty-four, it must be standing the other twenty-two hours. Now, where is it standing? If on terminals, for what purpose! Now, that is a point that is difficult to answer except in this way, that if, for instance, we load a car of coal to Chicago, it may be consigned to William Brown, and it comes into the Wildwood yard, among a lot of other cars, some for south Chicago, and some for other points. Now, that train as it comes in is passed over a gravity track, and this air is marked " hold," because we do not know where William Brown wants it. He sends some to the yards, some to north Chicago, some to Englewood, and some to other places. So the car is passed over, and it goes on to the " hold " track, and it is then pulled with a transfer engine and put into the " hold " yard. Notification is sent to the lower yard here at Chicago, which is 15 miles from the coal yard out at Englewood, and the agent then noti- fies Brown that this car has arrived, and he asks him for disposition of it. We allow Mr. Brown two or three days, in which time he can arrange for the disposition of that car of coal. At the end of five days he says, " I want that car sent to Jones at North Chicago, or Filllerton avenue on the Milwaukee track." We must then make a bill for North avenue and Fullerton avenue on the C, M. & St. P. That is taken down, and we find that car among 1,200 or 1,500 cars of coal, and we put the bill on, and the switchmen, when they pull that track at night or the next morning, pass that car into the working yard again. It goes in there with cars which are to be delivered to other roads. It goes over gravity and goes to the Belt and they make a delivery to the Milwaukee. The next car to it may be going to the C, B. & Q., and the next one we may deliver ourselves over at the stock yards. So that we then pass the car on to the belt — we give that car to the Belt railway. Now, it is next to a car that is going to South Chicago with grain, or something else on the Belt, and they must necessarily haul that car to their classifying yard and sort it out from the different cars that belong to or are going to the Milwaukee. They take it then, and deliver it that night or the next moring to the Milwaukee. The Milwaukee finds that it is next to a car that is going to St. Paul, we will say. They have got to pass it, and sort it out, and set it onto a track where the switch engine that waits on North avenue and Fullerton avenue will take it. Consequently, in t]ie average, that has taken from twelve to fifteen days to get nd of tnat carload of coal after it struck this terminal. Commissioner Lane. Well, what is the necessity of its ever coming into Chicago? Why not adopt Mr. Midgley's suggestion? Mr. Daly. I did not hear his suggestion, but if it is opposed to the question of reconsigning, then I am with him. Commissioner Lane. That was not his suggestion exactly, but he said, why should all of this business that is destined at the outset to some other place ever come in here and get mixed up on the local terminals? WTiy doesn't it stay outside? Mr, Daly. Well, so it does to a certain extent. We keep it on the outside, 15 miles out here, until the consignee has disposed of it CAB SHOBTAGB. 357 Now, to make that clear, I believe what we need is to understand ourselves on these propositions, and simplify matters as much as we possibly can. If the United States (lovernment were to handle United Staters mail (and that is nothing more than these 2,000,000 cars, we will say) in the same manner, or were comi)elled to handle the mail under similar difficulties, it would {perhaps make a good illustration. Thev have 2,000,000 letters, we have 2,000,000 cars. Each letter is addressed to a ditferent man at a different point, and each one must find a certain route over which to travel to reach that point and the party to whom it is addressed. Now, assume that I address a letter to Mr. John Jones, at No. 12 Broadway, New York, notify William Smith at Pittsburg. They would necessarily have to put that letter into the Pittsburg pouch. When it got to Pittsburg they would have to notify William Smith, and say, "W^hat will we do with this?" He would answer, "Well, hold it a few days, and I will tell you as soon as I can find out whether John Jones wants it or not." Then he comes back and tells them. Thev have got to readdress this letter, put it in another pouch, and send, it to John Jones. If the United States Government should undertake to handle its mail business — the mail business of the pub- lic — the same as the railroads handle their traffic, for the convenience of their patrons, it would find itself as confused and mixed up as the railroads are to-day, and it would require just double the facilities that it has now for the handling of that busmess. Returning for a moment to that car of coal proposition, I believe that if John Smith wants it at North avenue, it should have been billed to him when it first passed over gravity. Then it would have gone on to the belt track, and that would have saved from three to five days' delay in switching, and an expense of from $2 to $5 incurred in that service. It costs money every time you put a car from one road to another, and that money is not forthcoming on all shij)ments. But that, I think, is one of the principal hindrances that the railroad meets with dailj, in handling the business properly. Conmiissioner Lane. Do the railroads themselves have sufficient power by rules or otherwise to regulate such practices as that of reconsignment ? Mr. Daly. They have at some points, and at other points they have not. Some State railroad commissions say that you must afford certain facilities and certain concessions. Take for example the commissions *f Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas and some other States — they rell you "wnere to head in," and what you must do. Custom also makes it. If one railroad undertook to revolutionize the practice it would have no business during the dull season, and it would have a car shortanje during the busy reason, when it could not get cars from anybody else. But I think the railroads should start it and see whether they can do it or not. I think it can be done to a great extent, and it would help the operating department immensely. Of course, I can not answer for our traffic men or what they would say about it. Mr. Marble. You think that if you could accomplish that more people would be accommodated witn transportation during the busy season, although some would not be accommodated with warehouses? Mr. Daly. 1 think that if the unnecessary delays that now occur to equipment in what you might term the accommodation of patrons, 358 CAB SHOETAGB. or affording extraordinary privileges to the shippers or the shipping public, were eliminated, there would be no shortage of cars, and tnere would be less demand for an increase in terminal facilities, for the reason that all of these cars so held are occupying valuable terminal room, waiting for somebody to sell their contents. It is a very serious point in transportation matters to-day to obtain facilities and space on which to do your business. I think that really the railroads have outgrown their facilities of years ago that were then ample in the inner belt here, and some have been compelled to move out 12 or 15 miles. I also beheve that any number of large manufacturing plants have outgrown their capacity in the inner and more densely populated districts, where twenty years ago they had ample room to store their raw material, such as lumber, coal, and iron. In the last fifteen or twenty years they have put buildings up where they used to have storage room, and to-day they are work- ing night and day in plants that are operating on a twenty-four hour supply, and sometimes less, of fuel. These terminal roads and belt roads are obliged to wait on them, not once a day, or once every two or three days, as they used to do, but every six hours or every twelve hours, and the railroads that bring in the coal must carry a sufl&cient stock out in their yard for five or six days in order to prevent a shortage at some of these indus- tries that are not equipped so as to protect themselves with coal. That brings about a situation which is, of course, to the detriment of another shipper who is short of cars to handle a commodity that he can unload at once. So I say that I believe that the industries must, like the raihoads — the large manufacturing plants must, like the railroads — find a location outside of the densely populated dis- trict, where switching work is not interfered with every few mo- ments by suburban trains and where you are not interfered with in getting your stuff in to them; where you are not hampered by city ordinances governing the nmning or trains over street crossings, and so forth, hampered by street cars and street-car tracks and things of that kind, and where you do not have to drag the stuff slowly to them. It IS a matter wherein, perhaps, the railroads are largely responsi- ble, but I think a large portion of this responsibihty rests with the consignees that do not provide themselves with reasonable storage capacity, so that they can take the stuff and unload it more promptly, put it into stock, and release the cars. Mr. Marble. Now, Mr. Daly, to find a remedy for this situation, do you expect it to come from the consignees? Do you think that they will of themselves remedy this situation, or do you think that the responsibihty is up to the railroads to so change their rules that it will be to the interest of the consignees to release these cars? Mr. Daly. Well, I believe it is a great big proposition to deal with, and too big a proposition to guess at. There have been several remedies touched on already. Mr. Marble. Well, the question of reciprocal demurrage has been brought up. Mr. Daly. That will never accomplish anything. A railroad is more anxious to put its cars in service and keep them earning money than the consignee is, and Just as anxious if not more so than the shipper is to get the car. It stands to reason that if a railroad can CAB SHOBTAOS. 359 possibly expedite the furnishing of cars it will do so in order to increase its revenue ; and a penalty put onto anybody, shipper or consignee or railroad, that is doing its best is a vicious penalty. The c^uestion of reciprocal demurrage is in another sense a bad proposition. For example, here is a railroad that has but 50 per cent of the equipment to move its business. I am a shipper during the dull season, and I have got a lot of grain that I have tnirty days to get to market. I know tnis road here has not got the cars, but I simply order 50 cats from them and the agent accepts the order. He makes it a point, or he can make it a point, to fail to furnish those cars within the free time, so that I get $3 a car out of liim in the shape of a demurrage charge, which is nothing more or less than a refund or rebate, but given in such a way that it is impossible to locate it. Now that 8hipf>er could have shipped his business on our road during that same time. We had hundreds of cars standing idle, perhaps. The little road won't ask us for our cars during that p)erioa of time. They know that if they give as good service as we give and do not make these refunds, that we would probably get the Dusiness anyway. Again, it is a thing that can be manipulatea, and any rule that can be manipulated is not a good rule to put into the hands of promiscuous people. Commissioner Lane. Is there any greater danger of that system being used for rebating than the system of allowing the cars to stand over the forty-eight hours? Mr. Daly. Under the car-service instructions and rules a man that permits a consignee to carry cars over the free time, agent or other, is. you might say, willfully stealing. At any rate, he is disregarding all rules. Commissioner Lane. We do not necessarily presume that all these rebates or practices that are illegal are willfully done by the agent. Mr. Daly. Yes; but they know they are doing it. They know what it means. Now, the practice that I condemn is that possible to be indulged in by a road that is continually, during the dull season, keeping its cars on another part of the system, and don't move them from there until this grain that I have to ship has an average of about $2 or $3 per car reciprocal demurrage on it, and then I tell that road: "If you don't order the cars immediately and get them here I will load to-morrow on the other road." I get my cars, but if the matter comes up afterwards it will be impossible to put tnat man on the stand, or the manager of that railroad, and get any information out of him. They have done all they could to get the cars. The cars were not there; thev did not have the cars, and there would not be any incentive to build enough cars on the part of the weaker road, because he could always get the cream of the business by being short during the dull season when every railroad wants the business. To- day we would be glad if anybody wanted to part with 2,000 cars, say, and we would put them to the best commercial use we could give them, but during the summer months we want the business. Commissioner Lane. Well, take for example a road which does not seem to appreciate its obligations as a carrier. Mr. Daly. That is what I was coming to now. I think the solution of that is the increase in the per diem rate, which in my opinion is a very good and wise move — the increase to 50 cents — becau.se there are certain small roads that now order from 250 — one road will order 250 360 CAB SHOBTAQB. and another one 300 cars, but when they find that borrowing costs enough to make it pay them to build their own cars they are going to build them. That increase in the per diem rat« will create a certain relief. The next relief ought to come, if necessary, to be fair in the proposition, from some law or some body of men (the Interstate Com- merce Commission or others) who shall, if necessary, compel each railroad to supply itself with a reasonable amount of equipment to take care of its business during its busy season. But if the thing is limited to one or two roads and they are put on the same level, then the road that has actually done its duty is condemned with a reciprocal demurrage proposition, and to them the penalty is applied just the same as to the road that has not done its duty. For example, if a railroad here at Chicago, the Lake Shore, for instance, should become blockaded, and we had to hold in here for them a lot of cars, 600 or 700 cars, that would retard the delivery of the other cars to the connection here by reason of our terminal being blocked. Whv? Because we are holding the other fellow's cars. He can not take them, and we can not reconsign them to some other road. He is putting us in a position where we are violating a rule and failing to furnish a man with some cars, and while it is not at all our fault, we are penalized for it. That is not fair, and that penalty will not improve the condition. If a road don't want to build cars to take care or its own business, a penalty assessed upon them for delay won't bring about the building of cars unless you put it so high that there will be a profit for the investor that puts his money into cars, so that the man that retains them unduly will be at an actual loss. Then you are going to get them to build cars. . Mr. Marble. The question I asked you was this: Criticism is made by the raih-oads of the shippers and consignees that they hold the cars an unreasonable length of time and use them as warehouses, and that criticism seems to be justified. What I want to ask you is, can it fairly be hoped that the remedy for that situation will come from the shippers or consignees themselves, or does it result from an advan- tage taKen of the rules of the railroad company which the railroad must take the initiative in correcting? Mr. Daly. It is an advantage which they take of the railroad rules and the privileges which have been given either through competition or on account of the dealers getting so strong that they are in a posi- tion to tell the railroad what it must do. If a railroad undertakes to reduce the free time, which is one of those defects in the system — too long a free time at terminals — they object to it on the ground that it is iniiuing their business, yet they are blockading the terminals with deacl cars that should be moving. Mr. Marble. Can you hoi>e that these shippers will put a remeay into effect? Mr. Daly. No; I don't think they ever will. I think it is up to the railroads to do it, and it is up to some body of men to tell the rail- roads that they must do it. Mr. Marble. You think then that some body in authority must compel the railroads to do it ? Mr. Daly. Yes; because the railroads must do it uniformly. One road can not do it alone, and neither should one railroad advocate it alone. OAB SHOBTAOB. 361 Commissioner Lane. What do you mean by saying that it is up to the railroads and up to somebody to tell the railroads that they must do it ( Must do what ? Mr. Daly. Why the^ must get the maximum service out of their facilities and their equipment in order to take care of and protect the traffic offered them. Now, if we are permitting five days free time, and the reconsigning of coal or lumber and other stuff at Chicago, it is tying up a lot of cars and we are not getting the maximum service out of our cars. Commissioner Harlan. You would like to have some authority, then tell you to cut down the time, tell all the roaer. Take the lumber snippex in the South, or the grain shipper or any coal shipper. If the lumber shipper orders from me to-day, or you order five cars to ship to Cliicago and three cars to ship to St. Louis, you will say that is on the 21st or 20th of December. Now, I 368 CAB SHORTAGE. take a record of that, and I am given three or four or five days, I think, in which to furnish those cars to you, am I not ? Commissioner Lane. Yes, you are given a certain time. Mr. Daly. Very well. Now, then, to-morrow you place another order and the next day you place another order, and on the fourth day you come in and say " I want two cars that you gave me to-day on that St. Louis order, I want to apply them on a Detroit shipment, or a Montreal shipment, or a Boston shipment. " Suppose I under- take to accommodate you in that regard and cars on the other orders are therefore delayed? For that I am penalized. I say then, "No, sir. You have put your order in, and it must be filled the way you gave. it." That is, the agent, after he has paid about a dollar or two dollars of this penalty to the company, on account of his negli- gence or his action, wUl take a different position. The company may assess it over against the employee, and he will say: "The company is fighting me, they are not my friends, and now I am going to live religiously according to Hoyle. I accommodated this fellow last week, so he could get a sale, and I took chances. I obliged this fellow, and brought down upon me a penalty because of my favor to him." So, I say to you. No, sir; you can not ship those two." You show me a telegram and you say: "Here is an order; can you ship me such and such dimensions? What is your price?" Or, "At such and such a price." Now, that is a dollar or two dollars a thou- sand feet better than you can get at St. Louis or Chicago, but in order to get it you have got to ship it to-day or to-morrow. I say, " You will get the car within five days." They will get arbitrary, the agents will, just the same as others. They are human beings, and have all the frailties that anybody has. And in place of the privileges that we can now extend you on the give and take basis, we would be curtailing you and you would have to ship your produce in the cars wliich you have ordered for that particular purpose. Commissioner Lane. Well, if the shipper has the benefit of the give and take proposition, then he of course waives the obligation on your part to furnish him with the cars. It is only when the shipper knows definitely what he wants and orders it that you would be in any way responsible. Mr. Daly. If we refuse to allow him the two cars for Boston, and he loses that shipment, it then ma^' be placed on the New Orleans and Northeastern, and we lose that haul; and while we still get his two St. Louis cars and five cars for Chicago, that is where it hurts us; but, by the liberal, give-and-take, hejp-each-other policy he would be given facilities for those two carloads of business to Boston, and we would probably take care of the other business that he might have within the five-day period. But the agent's instructions would be. ' 'You must deal out those cars according to the manner in which the orders for them are placed, and the shipper must ship to the point where he orders the cars for, and if you do otherwise you take the chances." Commissioner Lane. Here are the facts that appear in our record : That a man orders a car or three cars on the 21st day of October, and when the 25th day of November comes around he has not yet received those three cars. Now, that is not a single solitary instance, but there are many cases of that kind, accounts of which we have in the CAB SHOBTAOB. 869 record of this hearing. What I want to know is, what remedy can be devised, through the railroads or otherwise, by which such a con- dition of things can be and will be relieved. Mr. Daly. The onlv thing I can see in a case of that kind is that the order has been mislaid somewhere, in the dispatcher's office or in the agent's office. Commissioner Lane. But there is no excuse of that kind made. Mr. Daly. Ttien the agent did not make the proper effort to get the cars. I do not think any railroad has been tnirty days short on cars. I tliink our shippers can not complain of any such condition as that, and I think that in the instance of which you speak other shippers nuist have received cars that they had ordered after these particular cars were ordered. I do not think that any railroad is in that condition. There must have been some misunderstanding, or some error in the placing of the order. Commissioner Lane. Why not say that it is due to mismanage- ment? Mr. Daly. Well, it is about the same thing. Commissioner Lane. Would you not think that there should be some direct way of penalizing that mismanagement? Mr. Daly. A\ell, 1 do not know how vou could do it, unless it would be to penalize the agent that did not call the dispatcher's attention to it from day to ciay — not necessarily every day but every few daj-s, every little while for a week. The difficulty is, or one of the many difficulties, that if you discharge him you get a worse one, or probably, what is even worse yet, vou get none at all; because the market is about as scarce on goo^ agents as it is on any other kind of labor. Commissioner Lane. In the case that I had in mind there is no such excuse as that. The attention of the heads of the railroad were brought to the matter by telegrams, and the demands that had been made on the local agent, and there had been no relief given. Mr. Daly. According to my view of the matter, the shipper and the consignee should receive from the railroad, with which they do business, reasonably fair treatment. If they do not, or if they are damaged, I believe that the railroad should be made to pay for it. 1 do not know of any way of achieving that end better than by a damage suit brought in the regular way in court. What I am criticizing among other things, are the theoretical rules that have been advanced as solutions for the present difficulties. What I want to see is a practical rule. If there is such a thing I want to see it. The rail- roads have made mistakes in the last 20 years in adopting certain so-called reforms on the spur of the moment. They have been sorry for it afterwards. We adopted a penalty rule on the per diem that we were very sorry for, and that did not work out at all to our satisfaction. That nile was to the effect that after a road liold a car for thirty con- secutiv^e days, the road would pay 80 cents penalty, and 20 cents per diem, making the total sum a dollar for every day they held the car over thirty days. We thought that was going to be a means of affording considerable relief; but the re^^ult was that about the twenty-sixth or the twenty-eighth day the road that had had this car for that length of time would immediately load it and send it to S. Doc. 333. 5»-2 ^24 370 CAB SHORTAGE. the other end of the country in order to break the thirty-day rule, and they would then pick up a new one. Now that taught us this lesson: To try out our rules before we adopted them; to see where they are weak, and test them, and if it is a rule that is going to give us relief, then put it into operation, but if it is not to eschew it. If it is a rule that is impracticable, to drop it, and such I think reciprocal demurrage would be. Mr. Marble. There is a gentleman here who wishes to ask Mr. Daly some questions, if the Commission will permit. Commissioner Lane. Very well; proceed. Mr. Berry (of the Berry Coal and Coke Company, Fischer Build- incr, Chicago.) You say it ought to be necessary for some power out- side of the railroads to compel the companies or force them to compel the shipper to give the final destination of cars when he makes a ship- ment in order to avoid the delay consequent to reconsignment and so on. Mr. Daly. Well, I think something along that line is necessary; yes. Mr. Berry. And you say that the only power that could do that would be the Interstate Commerce Conrmiission. Mr. Daly. Well, I would assume that that would be the natural channel through which they would take action or irom which some such rule shomd come. Mr. Berry. And you say that the railroads themselves could not agree on that among themselves? Mr. Daly. No; no more than they could on rates. Mr. Berry. Did they have any trouble in agreeing several years ago as to the formation of the Car Service Association? Mr. Daly. No; I do not know that they did. Mr. Berry. And it has been in operation about twelve or fifteen years, has it not ? Mr. Daly. Yes, I think it has. Mr. Berry. Never has had a break in it, has it? Mr. Daly. Well, no; not so far as I know. It has never been dis- organized or anything of that kind. Mr. Berry. All the railroads are connected with that association, are thev not ? Mr. I)aly. Well, I do not know exactly. I know there are a great many members of the Car Service Association here, I think about 24 or 25. Mr. Berry. And it is a fact, is it not, that only eight or nine of the roads here bring the coal in ? Mr. Daly. No, I guess there are probably ten or twelve. Mr. Berry. About seven of them bring in the majority of it, don't they? ^ Mr. Daly. Yes, four will probably bring in the majority out of the nine or ten or twelve. Mr. Berry. Then, as I imderstand it from what you say, the rail- roads have no trouble in making an agreement among themselves for all the 24 roads when they get the cars to Chicago and get their reve- nue out of them, but the seven or eicrht roads that bring the coal in can not agree upon the proper method of making a final cOsposition of the coaL Whenever the traffic has been handled and they have CAB SHORTAGB. 371 gotten their revenue out of the car, then it is easy enough for them to agree on the matter of car service. Mr. Daly. Why, I do not know that there is any uniform car- serxdce charge of a dollar a day all through the country. That does not furnish Mr. Berry. Is there not an association here to which every railroad in Chicago is bound, and don't they act together, and isn't the decision of that association absolutolv arbitrary? Mr. Daly. No, sir; absolutely not. We have one agent here, one man, our agent, that takes care of all complaints that are offered by shippers, and he carefully investigates the matter and adjusts it as best he may. Now, we have got a manager and we have provided for the organization of a Car Service Association in order that it may be imiform, and that it may handle the situation with some degree of facility. It is absolutely necessary that we have such a thing, other- wise we would have no car service. Mr. Berry. I challenge any shipper in this community, or any- where else, or any man m this room to state if they have ever had $1 worth of car service or $1 worth of anything they didn't pay for from anv railroad ? Mr. Daly. The arrangements have been made, justified by the con- ditions, so as to as properly as possible handle those conditions? Mr. Berry. Has it ever been made except through the Car Service Association, and just one man? Doesn't one man have all the say about it? Mr. Daly. In any settlement, our agent must approve of the arranojement. He must investigate the case and know that it is right before any arrangement is made. Mr. Berry. I ask any man here that is a shipper if he has ever had any communication from any agent of any railroad that he has not had to refer to the one man who is the head of the Car Service Asso- ciation in Chicago, and if until that man said that a thing could be done that they could not do it — if he has not been told that that was their rule? Mr. Daly. The car-service manager can not say or do anything at any time until he has obtained from our anient the facts in connection with the case. He is then informed whether or not, in the judgment of our a^ent, the case is meritorious, and we know whether we are justified m making any refund. As a general rule, we find that our agent is altogether too lenient in recommending refunds. Mr. Berry. Does not the agent himself refer you to the Car Service Association? Does not the Car Service Association say — aren't they the people that can make the refund, and are you permitted to make it otherwise? Mr. Daly. Why, we don't ask the car-service manager for authority on any refund. Don't you understand, he is simply the agent of the railroads of the city, and' his decision is not final in any sense. There is an executive committee of the association. If we thought for a moment that he was assessing car service that he should not, and was not assessing car service that he should, it is up to us to investi- gate it for our own people, to see what is coming to the shipper. Mr. Berry. I challenge every man here, and I challenge yourself, if it is not absolutely true, and I can prove it by letters, where every 372 CAB SHOBTAGB. single time the agent himself states that that is a matter to go to the car-service man alone, and that he must pass upon it, and that no officer of the railroad company can pass upon it. Mr. Daly. Oh, well; that is in order to have the refunds or the claims taken up uniformly. When he presents a case to our agent for a refund, when the shipper does, we refer him to the car-service mana- ager. The car-service manager must investigate that through our agent, as to whether or not he (the shipper) is entitled to the refund. Our agent must make the investigation personally, and mast recom- mend to the car-service manager — or he must state whether or not the refund is justifiable under the rules, or whether it should not be granted, and the car-service manager is simply there to carry out the rule uni- formly on every railroad, and it is necessary to do that in order to obtain the results that are required. If each railroad was left to administer its rules as it saw fit in such matters, and to say, for instance, that it would allow six days on lumber — one railroad — and another railroad only two or three days, you would have confusion, and if there were rules which were applicable at one point, uniformly or otherwise, and were not at all applicable at another, you would simply disorganize this entire organization, and you would not bring about at all what the shippers are now crying for. Mr. Berry. The fact is that all the car-service rules are made uni- form. It is not a matter of whether the amount is right or not, but it is a matter that one man alone has the power to decide whether they are right or not. I can show you hundreds of letters from the agents, from the commercial agent, and from officers of the different railroads, wherein they say that they have no power whatever to pass on this question, and that any action that they take must be recommended by the superintendent of the car-service association. But we will pass that point. Everybody knows that. The fact of it is that you want the Interstate Commerce Commission to force the railroads to insist upon a final destination for the coal, so that each railroad will be com- pelled to do it. At the same time you had no trouble here in combin- ing all the railroads in an association, the object of which was to place the car service upon the same plane — all of you ; and yet you aidmit that there are only four or five railroads here that carry the coal into Chicago. Then it resolves itself into the fact that it is a matter of revenue that they can not agree upon. When the car gets here they can easily enough agree upon the car-service, but they can not agree on anything before the revenue is earned. Is it not a fact that the main difficulty is simply a matter of jealousy between the railroads as to the amount of tonnage wliich each one shall carry. Mr. Daly. I do not know as to the tonnage and the jealousy you speak about, but I know this, that we have reduced the free time on coal to our consignees to three days, and to five days, when the uni--' form car-service rule is seven days. We notified the Car Service Association to that effect, and we are going to do that in order to relieve this condition that we have now. The agent of the Car Serv- ice Association has been notified that instead of allowing five days, which the rules provide for, commencing with the first of the year we will apply the three-day limit in order to relieve these conditions, and see if we can not facilitate the more prompt movement of cars. He knows what we are going to do, and our agent knows it. He will therefore hereafter, so far as we are concerned, give only three days. OAB SHOBTAOB. 373 Commissioner Lane. Is there a coal-car shortage in Chicago, or a shortage of coal? Mr. Daly, No; but if the roads get extremely cold weather or a snow blockade, it will retard the movement of the coal cominj; in and retard the switching movement after we get it here ; and what we are aiming to do is to get all the cars we can to the mines to protect our- selves against this storm which we expect, naturally, in January. It used to be in December, the December storm, but now, inasnmch as we have not had it yet, we will probably get it in January. Then we will get the heavy snow, and that will retard the movement of the equipment. We don't want to get caught then with a shortage of coal. Mr. Berrt. After you get the car here, and after you have had your traffic out of it, and get your revenue, and when we want that car taken from one railroad to another, they charge us 40 cents a ton, don't theyl That might be considered the minimum charge from the nearest point into Chicago. If we want to get a car from the Illinois Central over onto the track of the Lake Shore, we have got to pay 40 cents a ton, haven't we, to do that? Mr. Daly. I do not know ; that is a traffic matter. Mr. Berry. Another fact is that the railroads several times have come into the market relative to switching cars from one point to another, but the fact of it is that they made some sort of a — it made some sort of a friction as to the amount of traffic they were getting out of it, and they had to break through on it. Mr. Daly. I do not quite understand you, but I think what you refer to is a matter that is handled by our traffic department. Mr. Berry. There is no trouble m the railroads getting together, as far as the combination is concerned, in the matter of car service here, after they have got their coal to Chicago, and gotten their revenue, but it seems that five or six roads can't agree upon the mat- ter of the final destination of the cars and the length of time allowed for reconsignment, and they want the Interstate Commerce Commis- sion to come in and force the railroads to do that now. Mr. Daly. I might explain that in this way. The question of car service is handled by our own operating departments. The question of reconsignments and those privileges which are extended and of which I have spoken, in order to secure traffic, are handled by the traffic department, and it is a well-known fact that the op>erating man belongs to associations. The operating men have associations all over this country, all the railway men do, the master mechanics, the car accountants, and all the others, and those associations get together and we discuss these matters and see if we can agree on certain lines of action. We are doing the best we can. Now the question that you are asking largely refers to the traffic department and traffic manager. The matter of reconsignments and the various requirements that exist in order that we may please our patrons, the things that I have mentioned, exist in a measure at least through the courtesy of the traffic department, and their efforts to secure business, and also on account of the attitude taken by the shippers, but not through the operating department. We would have condemned such practices the first time they were brought up and we would have been glad to do it. It is costing us all kinds of grief and trouble to break up trains 374 CAB SHOBTAGBL and set out these cars, and delay them, and rehandle them at interme- diate points. We consider it a traffic department matter, and I think it is one which you can, perhaps with more satisfaction to yourself, ask the traffic aepartment about — why they do not remedy it, and you will doubtless have an opportunity to do that when they come on the stand. It is something that we nave nothing to do with in the operating department. Mr. Berry. It is not a matter as between two departments, when you desire to make a combination, after you have earned your revenue. There is no trouble about your making that combination, but you can not make any combination before you have earned your tariff. That seems to be the proposition. Mr. Daly. I do not quite get you. You have the best of me there in that I can not seem to understand you. Mr. Hostler. Mr. Daly, you have testified here that 12 miles an hour is the average movement for coal traffic ? Mr. Daly. Yes; while in train. Mr. Hostler. You have also testified that this proposed increase in the per diem will hasten the return of cars from one road to another ? Mr. Daly. Yes ; that is my belief. Mr. Hostler. Now, in designating that a per diem charge, is it not a demurrage charge also? Mr. Daly. Wny, it is car hire; that is the proper term for it. It is not per diem, or demm-rage; it is car hire. It is the hiring of a car. Mr. Hostler. Well, now, the adoption of the car-service rules has greatly facilitated the unloading of freight at terminals, has it not ? Mr. Daly. Yes, absolutely. Mr. Hostler. Well, now, if the demurrage charge will hasten the railroads in returning cars from one railroad to another, and will hasten the shippers in unloading the cars (as you have testified it will), why would not the adoption of the demurrage rule, requiring the railroads to move their cars a certain mmiber of miles within every twenty-four hours, and requiring them to furnish the cars within a certain time after they are ordered — ^why would not that hasten the movement of traffic, if a penalty was imposed upon the railroads for their failure to furnish cars required within the stipulated time. Mr. Daly. There are so many conditions affecting the movement of traffic on long distances, on long hauls, and even on short hauls, that it would be almost impossible to frame a demurrage rule, as yoi3 call it, to compel a railroad to move traffic a given number of miles per day. For instance, two weeks ago or three weeks ago, we hac our entire tracks, for six days — our entire tracks in Mississippi anc elsewhere — washed out. We were washed out and we had passengei trains delayed, traffic blocked, and a hundred and one other obstacles to the prompt movement of traffic. Mr. Hostler. That will be the acts of God or the enemies of tht country. Mr. Daly. How many months do you think it would take me witl a force of a couple of hundred clerks to answer all the complaints that would reach me to the effect that we had not made 80 miles s day during that period? Mr. Hostler. Well, I know that my coal is congested in transit GAB 8H0BTAQE. 375 and held back and then brouglit in here in solid train loads. It is held back and they have kept the coal that was due here since Octo- ber. Mr, Dax-t. On what road 1 Mr. Hostler. I have got coal out here within 25 miles Commissioner Hablan. Have you any on the Illinois Central ? Mr. HosTLEB. Not on the Illinois Central; but I can not get it in, and then, all of a sudden, thev bring it in all at once, and 3 I can't dispose of it right away then tney want to charge me so much demur- rage. If that coal had been brought forward the way it should have come, I could have moved those cars every one of them as fast as they got in here. We have not held a car of coal on track over forty-iour hours since September Ist, with the exception of some smithine coal that congested, and that was due to the fact that the man did not ship the coal that we wanted in those cars. Mr. M. C. Anderson (cabbage buyer residing in Pittsburg, Pa.). I have got something I have to say in regard to car service. Commissioner Hablan. Let me make this suggestion to you. You have some complaint of your own ? Mr. Anderson. I have, sir. Commissioner Hablan. Well, then, I suggest that you tell the Commission about it on the witness stand, mstead of taking up the time to interrogate Mr. Dalv. We have gone over the ground very thoroughly with Mr. Daly, but of course we want to hear what you have to saj about your complaint, and, if it will bring out the pomts you have m mind more clearly, I suggest that you take the witness stand and tell about it. Mr. Anderson. It is important that I should tell it right now. Commissioner Hablan. Has it something to do with the Illinois Central? Mr. Andebson. Not materially, no. Commissioner Hablan. Well, you consult with Mr. Marble, and spe what he wishes to do. This thing must be brought forward in an orderly manner. Mr. Mabble. We will call Mr. Anderson now. M. C. Andebson, called and sworn as a witness, was examined by Mr. Marble, and testified as follows: Mr. Mabble, Your name is M. C. Anderson? Mr. Andebson. Yes, sir. Mr. Mabble. You reside at Racine, Wis. ? Mr. Andebson. At the present time I do, yes, sir. My home, it is Pittsbiu-g, Pa. Mr. IMabble. And you are engaged in the cabbage business at Racine? Mr. Andebson. I am at the present time, ves, sir. Mr, Marble. Shipping cabbage in carload lots? Shipping or attempting to ship? Mr. Andebson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble, To this market, and to what other markets? Mr. Ander.son, To all the markets in the Union, Mr, Mabble. You have had trouble in getting warehouse facilities? 376 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Anderson. It was impossible to get warehouse facilities at the time 1 started up here, about the last of October, It was another impossibility to get cars in which to ship this cabbage, and recently we were compelled to do the next best thing, if we intended to operate here in this district, and we leased a piece of ground and piled on it 1,100 tons of cabbage, which the photographs will indicate. [Witness refers to two photographs, showing piles of cabbages said to be located at IVanksville, Wis.] Mr. Marble. You had photographs taken of these piles of cabbage, did you ? jPku*. Anderson. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Wliat demand have you made for cars? Mr. Anderson. I have made every demand possible for a man to make. Commissioner Harlan. How long ago did you demand any cars ? Mi. Anderson. Sixty days ago. Commissioner Harlan. From whom ? Mr. Anderson. From the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul. Commissioner Harlan. How was that demand made ? Mr. Anderson. I ordered cars from the agent at Caledonia and at Franksville. Commissioner Harlan. How many cars did you ask for? Mr. Anderson. Fifteen cars. Commissioner Harlan. You have not received them, and you have repeated that demand? Mr. Anderson. Probably one hundred times. Commissioner Harlan. Wliat market were you trying to reach — Chicago ? Mr. Anderson. Any market in the country. Commissioner Harlan. Well, you must have intended to ship them somewhere. I want to know what market you were trying to reach. Mr. Anderson. Any market in the country. I ship my stuff and sell it from New Orleans to the Great Lakes. Commissioner Harlan. Well, is that what you said to the agent? Mr. Anderson. Well, I told him that I would take any kind of a refrigerator car, box car or stock car, but since the weather turned cold, it is impossible to ship it in anything but a refrigerator. Commissioner Harlan. Did you tell him Mr. Anderson. I did. Commissioner Harlan. Wait a minute. Did vou tell him that you wanted a car to go anywhere, or did you speak of some particular market ? Mr. Anderson. No particular market — a car that would run to any market. Mr. Marble. Did you tell him you wanted a car for the Chicago market ? Mr. Anderson. I would — I said I would take 40 per cent of the cars that would not run any farther than Chicago, and he said that they did not want to furnish any cars to go off their own rails. I said I would take Illinois Central cars, and I took it up with the Illinois Central people and agreed to give them 90 per cent of the fremht on my caobage, or do anything else necessary to get cars. Commissioner Lane. What reason was given to you for not fur- nishing the cars? CAB SHORTAGB. 377 Mi". Anderson. They have not got them. Commissioner Lane. Did they say that they had not got themi Mr. Anderson. They said it was impossible to get them. Commissioner Lane. Were you here when the manager of the operating department of the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul Rail- road was on the stand ? Mr. Anderson. I was not here. I came in from Cleveland, Ohio, to attend this hearing voluntarily. Commissioner Harlan. How long have you been at Franksville, Wis.? Mr. Anderson. Since the 1st of October — since the last of October or the Ist of November. Commissioner Harlan. Of this year? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. You have been in business there then about sixty days I Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir; in that district — coming from western New York, where I ^Iso operate. Commissioner Harlan. You raise cabbage for the market? Mr. Anderson. I have not got any farm for raising cabbage, but I buy tliis cabbage from growers who do plant it. Commissioner Harlan. You are simply a buyer? Mr. Anderson. Yes; a buyer and shipper of cabbage. Commissioner Harlan. How much of that product do you handle? Mr. Anderson. I suppose by the time the season is over probably we will handle 5,000 tons. Commissioner Harlan. That is known as the cabbage district of Wisconsin, is it ? Mr. Anderson. It is the greatest cabbage district of the United States. Commissioner Harlan. And has been so for some time? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir* for some time. Commissioner Harlan. There has been, then, a regular business of shipping cabbages from that point? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir; there is more cabbage raised in Racine and Kenosha counties than in any other place in the country. Commissioner Harlan. So, then, it is an old business at that point? Mr. Anderson. It is a business of probably ten years' standmg. Commissioner Harlan. What weight of cabbages did you buy for shipment ? Mr. Anderson. How much cabbage did I buy? Commissioner Harlan. Yes. Mr. Anderson. Probably over 4,000 tons. Commissioner Harlan. For delivery at any point that could be reached ? Mr. Anderson. Yes. Commissioner Harlan. And not with reference to any special market ? Mr. Anderson. I was willing to sacrifice 1,100 tons of cabbage on any market in the country in order to get it off the ground where I have it stored on the ground at Franksville, Wis., as the photogniplis will indicate. Commissioner Harlan. What time do cabbages ordinarily become ready for the market? 378 OAK SHORTAGE. Mr. Anderson. They begin in September and last until the latter part of November. Conmiissioner Harlan. When did you first make a demand for cars? Mr. Anderson. The second day after I got there; along about, say, the 28th or 29th of October. Commissioner Harlan. Did you make the demand here in Chicago? Mr. Anderson. Of the accent at Franksville of the Chicago, Mil- waukee and St. Paul, and also at Caledonia. Commissioner Harlan. Did you tell liim the definite number of cars you wanted ? Mr. Anderson. I told him I would like to have at least ten or fifteen cars as soon as possible. Commissioner Harlan. What did he say? Mr. Anderson. The agent told me that there were 16 orders ahead of mine, and that I would have to wait until there was 80 cars of cab- bage loaded there before I would be allowed to get one car. Commissioner Harlan. That is in filling orders that were ahead of yours ? Mr. Anderson. Yes; in filling orders ahead of mine. Commissioner Harlan. And that there would have to be 80 cars loaded before you got one ? Mr. Anderson. Yes; 80 cars loaded before I got any. Commissioner Harlan. Well, were the 80 cars loaded? Mr. Anderson. I should suy not. Commissioner Harlan. How many were loaded? Mr. Anderson. Well, I took possession of three or four cars that day. Conmiissioner Harlan. Took them in what way, by force ? Mr. Anderson. Forcibly; yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. And were those cars shipped off for you? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir; they were. Commissioner Harlan. They were billed and shipped off? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. Commissioner Harlan. To what market did they go? Mr. Anderson. I tliink two of them went to Cleveland, Ohio, and one to Canton, Ohio. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know how many cars of cabbage were loaded there ? Mr. Anderson. Probably 500 cars at that station. Conunissioner Harlan. Well, then, the 80 cars were loaded? Mr. Anderson. He said I should not get one imtil there was 80 cars loaded ahead of mine. I took possession the day he told me this of the cars and loi.ded some. j Commissioner Lane. Have 80 cars been loaded since the 1st of November ? Mr. Anderson. Yes; we have shipped over 80 cars ourselves. Commissioner Lane. Did you get any more cars? Mr. Anderson. Oh, yes; I got some cars. Commissioner Lane. How many cars have you had during this cabbage season? Mr. Anderson. At Franksville? Commissioner I^NE. Yes; at Franksville. Mr. Anderson. Probably 60 cars. GAB SHOBTAGB. 379 Commissioner Lane. That is the number you have had ? Mr. Andebson. Yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. And how many did you require to ship all of your purchases? Mr. Anderson. I could have taken 70 or 80 cars more for the cabbage I had on hand and bought, and also, in addition, I have this lot. This lot that I have is 1,100 tons, and I think probably half of it is exposed to the weather and would probably have been ruined before this had it not been for the fact tnat 1 have covered it with 5 or 6 feet of marsh hay. Commissioner Lane. You have made, you say, repeated demands for cars? Mr. Andebson. Yes, to every official of the St. Paul road. Commissioner Lane. Is there the same complaint made by all the others ? Mr. Andebson. Yes: there seems to be a scramble for cars very much like an hunojy dog scrambling for a bone. Commissioner Hablan. Well, you have received your portion, have you not? You did not get enough, but, as compared witn the others, you have got your proportion, haven't you? Mr. Andebson. Yes, I feel I certainly have. Commissioner Hablan. And perhaps a little more than that, when you consider those that you took forcible possession of? Mr. Andebson. Yes, sir. Commissioner Hablan. So that your complaint is simply that you were a merchant with a large quantity or tliis produce and tliat while the railroad company has ^iven you a fair proi)ortion Mr. Andebson. A fair proportion, yes, I will admit that. Commissioner Hablan. That while it has done that, yet it has not moved your traffic? Mr. Andebson. No, sir; not over 50 per cent of it. Commissioner Lane. How much more cabbage was shipped this year than last? Mr. Andebson. The crop in that district was probably 30 to 40 per cent greater this year than last year. Commissioner Lane. What do the dealers ordinarily do with cab- bage when they can not move it on the trains? Air. Andebson. They have to hold it until they can move it, and if it comes on to freeze it freezes in the field where he grows it. Commissioner Lane. What loss of price is there in the value of cabbages, caused by their being out in the air? Mr. Andebson. Not necessarily anything up to the present time, because we have protected it, and the weather has been mild. Commissioner Lane. Is there any loss in the market price? Mr. Andebson. No, sir; the market price has advanced. Commissioner Hablan. But if you have to hold it dming the winter you will make a loss, is that it? Mr. Andebson. It is just this way: if we should get a cold snap, 15 or 20 degrees below zero, it would be frozen so that it would be entirely worthless. Commissioner Hablan. This is your letter, is it not, explaining the situation [referring to letter sent by Anderson to the Commis- eion heretofore]. Mr. Andebson. Yes, sir; that is it. 380 OAB SHORTAGE. Commissioner Harlan. We will file that with the photograph. Is there anything further ? Mr. Anderson. I am also operating at Ives Grove, as it is called, on the Northwestern, and also at Racme. Caledonia is 6 miles north of Franks ville, and I have a man there that I am hiring at a salary, and he has got 1 car in sixteen days, and I have got 25 cai-s of cabbage there to be moved that I had paid for and that I am obliged to take regardless of the market conditions or anything else. Commissioner Harlan. On what road is that? Mr. Anderson. The Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul. Commissioner Harlan. Is there any other road there? Mr. Anderson. No, sir. At the rate I have been getting cars it will be four hundred days before I would get 25 cars, and that would be along about February 1, 1908. Commissioner Harlan. Did they make any promises to give you cars? Mr. Anderson. Promises are like good resolutions, easily broken. Commissioner Harlan. I understand that, but I want the facts. Mr. Anderson. Yes; they gave us promises, and they say they are doing the best they can. Commissioner Harlan. But they don't promise you cars at any definite date ? Mr. Anderson. No, sir. Commissioner Harlan. At what other points are you doing business ? Mr. Anderson. At those four points. Conunissioner Harlan. What is the amount of your purchases? Mr. Anderson. I have probably 450 tons in storage there now. We have shipped 50 cars out of that station. I have the old Schil- ling Brewery leased at Racine, and have about 250 tons there, and there have been moved out of that 2 or 3 cars. Commissioner Harlan. And the fourth and last one ? Mr. Anderson. That is at Caledonia, where I say I have about 25 cars, and I have had 1 car in sixteen days. Commissioner Lane. If there is any representative of the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul here who would like to ask this gentleman any question, he can do so. (No response). Mr. Marble. These are the pictures brought here by you showing, as you have stated, the two piles of cabbages ? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. •' Mr. Marble. You have seven piles altogether? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir; 1,100 tons. Mr. Marble. And the others are similar to these? Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. I will introduce these exhibits with Mr. Anderson's testimony. I have no further questions. Mr. Anderson. In regard to the car service, this gentleman that spoke about car service. That is regulated here by one party here in tms town, as I know. I have had quite an experience in that line. I had a car that came in here some thirty days ago, on the Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul, a box car, New York Central and Hudson River Railroad car No. 51200. It still stands at Morgan Street yards, unclaimed and not refused. It belongs to me, but it has been robbed OAB SHOBTAGB. 381 of a ton or two of cabbage, and I went to the officials of the St. Paul and told them that if they would throw off the demurrage I would release all claims and demands for this cabbage that had been stolen. They referred me to the car-service man — I uiink his office is in the builaing at State and Van Buren streets — and he referred me back to the St. Paul office to the claim department. They never did any- thing, and they wanted me to refuse the car, which I would not do; and I would not accept the car under those conditions, and that car is standing there yet.. I am willing to adjust the claim, release that, if they will throw off the demurrage on the car, and not put in anv claim for shortage. Now, then, when they talk about this being the uni- versal rule about this car service, I will beg to differ from that. I am interested in Pittsburg, Pa., where the Pennsylvania Railroad collects $5 a day for a car after a limited time. We have forty-eight hours there, and the next twenty-four hours is $2 a day, the next twenty- four hours, and the tliird twenty-four hours is $4 a day, and the fourth twenty-four hours is $4 a day, and after that it is $5 a day. One dollar is called demurrage and the balance is called storage. Commissioner Harlan. Well, have you any suggestion to make in connection with your complaint? Mr. Anderson. Any suggestion? Commissioner Harlan. Yes. Mr. Anderson. In what wav? Commissioner Harlan. Well, your complaint has been made in the record, and this is, of course — this hearing — is in reference to car shortage. Have you any suggestion to make as to how it could be corrected? Mr. Anderson. That is a pretty difficult matter to get into. It is pretty deep, and you have got to think about that matter. Commissioner Harlan. You recognize the difficulty of the ques- tion, do you? Mr. Anderson. I do; yes, sir; thoroughly. Commissioner Harlan. And you are not prepared at this time to make any suggestion ? Mr. Anderson. Yes, I am as well prepared at this time as at anv other. I can not see why the railroaa company should not be penal- ized for the nondelivery of a car just as much as the receiver should for not unloading the car at a given time. Commissioner Harlan. You think that the adoption of the prin- ciple of reciprocal denuirrage would be a fair thing? Mr. Anderson. I do; and make it high enough so as to make it interesting for both parties. This dollar a day is just a mere baga- telle. Make them unload, of course, but make the railroads hustle along with the freight. How in the world, if the St. Paul people can not take care of the people on their own line now, how are they going to do when they build 2,300 miles of extension? It takes eight or nine days to ship a car from Franksville, Wis. (69 miles north of Chicago), to St. Louis. How are they going to take care of the bal- ance of the traffic? They can not take care of what they have got now. Commissioner Harlan. Have you any further suggestions to offer? Mr. Anderson. No, sir; nothing. 382 CAB SHOBTAGE. Julius Kbuttschnitt, called and sworn as a witness, was examined by Mr. Marble, and testified as follows: Mr. Maeble. You reside in Chicago ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. Yes, sir; I do. Mr. Marble. You are director of maintenance and operation of the Union Pacific Railway? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. Of the Union Pacific and the Southern Pacific system. Mr. Mabble. Does that include the Oregon Short Line? " Mr. Kbuttschnitt. Yes, sir. Mr. Mabble. And anv other roads? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. 'the Oregon Short Line, the Oregon Railway and Navigation Company, and the Southern Pacific lines. Mr. Mabble. Are any of those companies short of cars ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. tinder the conditions that have existed this year there has been, for the past two months, a shortage of equipment. Mr. Mabble. What are tne conditions to which 3"ou refer ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. The conditions are those of abnormal, unprece- dented, and one might say unexpected activity in all branches of business, as evidenced bv the fact that the value of the farm products this year is estimated to be $6,800,000,000, as against $6,-300,000.000 last year, or an increase of $500,000,000 in one year, which is an indi- cation of the increased tonnage that the railroads are called upon to handle. Mr. \L^.BBLE. That would be an increase of about 7 or 8 per c«nt, would it not ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. Yes, and in connection with that would be the increase in traffic of all other descriptions, such as fuel and lumber. Mr. Mabble. Have other classes of traffic increased proportion- ately? Is that the condition of things, or have they increased to a percentage more than 7 or 8 per cent? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. You ask how much the other classes of traffic have increased ? Mr. Mabble. Yes, the percentage of increase; has it been about the same as the agriculture ])roducts, about 7 or 8 per cent ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. Fully. Mr. IkL\BBLE. How much has your equipment increased ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. I can giye you that; the traffic of all descrip- tions has increased about 9 per cent, and the total capacity of freight cars owned about 30 per cent. j Commissioner Lane. During the year? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. Li 1907 over 1906, but I must qualify that by stating that that includes cars contracted for, but not yet delivered. Commissioner Lane. TNTiat does the 1906 supply over the 1905 supply show by way of increase ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. About 9 per cent. Commissioner Lane. Now, wnen you speak of 9 per cent increase in traffic, are you speaking of your own roads, your own sj-stem ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. Yes, of our own system of lines. Mr. Mabble. You mean by that tonnage carried or tonnage offered ? Mr. Kbuttschnitt. This is tonnage actually moved that I refer to. Mr. ALiBBLE. Now, have you failed to move tonnage offered to as great a degree as you did last year, say? CAB SHORTAGE. 383 Mr. Kruttschnitt. The only portions of our line where we have had any extraordinary difficulty in moving tonnage have been in Oregon. Commissioner Lane. Where? IMr. Kruttschnitt. In Oregon and Washington. Mr. Marble. What classes of tonnage have suffered there? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Principally lumber destined for the mill, and grain destined for Puget Sound and Portland. That trouble was due almost entirely to the very serious congestion of traffic in California, brought about by the San Francisco fire. That is because Oregon is dependent for the car supply on California. There is very little freight moves into Oregon at this time of the year, but a great deal goes into San Francisco and Oakland, and the empties for the Oregon traffic orijjinate at San Francisco, €tnd must be moved northward over the California lines into Oregon. As a result of the San Francisco disaster we had an aggravated blockade lasting from approximately the day of the fire up to very nearly the first of October — a blockacie which at its maximum tied up some 6,600 cars or very nearly 10 per cent of the entire equipment of our lines. The reasons that caused that blockade are patent. The absorbing power of San Francisco for freight, its capacitor for storage and for getting rid of the freight, had all been wiped out in thirty-six hours. It was impossible to reproduce those facilities, and for several months the company had to be extremely lenient with receivers of freight, and it was only uf)on the approach of the crop season that we had to take drastic measures with tne California communities, to the end that we might get the cars unloaded. I am very glad to be able to say that that result was accomplished with comparatively little friction. Mr. Marble. Your company also had a fire in San Francisco which added to this difficulty, did it not? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Our company? Mr. Marble The Southern Pacific Company. Am I correct in that, or did that factor enter into the situation with you? Mr. Kruttschnitt. No, not in that manner. Commissioner Lane. You had no trouble at Galveston? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes; there has been considerable trouble at Galveston this year, and there is every year at Galveston and New Orleans. Commissioner Lane. Is not the situation in Galveston aggravated this year seriously ? The reports that we have from there are to the eflPect that there are 4,000 or 5,000, and some have estimated as high as 6,000, cars being detained by blockades in and around Galveston. Air. Kruttschnitt. I have not the numbers now at my command. The actual details of the operation of affairs in those ports are in the hands of the local general managers. My functions are supervisory largely. About a month ago I had a report from Galveston showing — my rec- ollect ion is — 1,200 or 1,500 cars waiting there for ships. By heroic measures we have gotten that number somewhat reduced. Galveston, however, is alwajrs in the crop season troubled with a blockade of cars. I am familiar with that situation, and have been so for some twenty- five years, and 1 have never known it otherwise. 384 CAR SHORTAGE. Commissioner Lane. What relief can be given there? Mr. Kruttschnitt. To answer that question for Gralveston, you would have to answer it more or less for the entire United States, and for every seaport, and it is difficult to see how any relief can be given if the crops must be harvested and practically shipped from the harvest field to the seaport, because it means immediate shipment. The methods of harvesting are being improved all the time, and the time in which the crops are moved is being reduced all the time, and conse- quently the concentration of traffic, and the density of traffic in the crop season is increasing all the lime. The only apparent relief would be to erect very extensive warehouses near the snipping points or at the seaports in which the crops could be stored. Commissioner Lane. Are the terminal facilities sufficient at Galves- ton for the handling of trains as they come in? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Our company built, five or six years ago, a ter- minal that we then thought would be ample for all requirements for twenty-five years to come. I think the f acili ies there are still ample. The outside companies, the wharf companies in Galveston, have aided largely, and my understanding now is that the trouble is in the ocean tonnage. Commissioner Lane. In the sufficiency of the ocean tonnage? Mr. Kruttschnitt. The sufficiency of the ocean tonnage. The ships don't get in fast enough to take the freight away, and perforce it is held either in cars or in the warehouses. Commissioner Lane. We had a dispatch from there some ten days ago, I think, saying that there were 60 ships waiting in the harbor, and another dispatch was received by us a day or two ago, saying that there were 45, I presume that they have not got wharves at which thej^ can accommodate all these ships at the same time, but this Com- mission has been in receipt for some time past of complaints from Gal- veston, and particularly from the northern part of Texas. Shippers have offered to various railroads in the northern part of Texas, in Oklahoma, Indian Territory, Missouri, and in surrounding States, ship- ments for Texas points south of Fort Worth, and for Galveston and other places in the South, and they have said that they could not get cars, because as soon as a car went into Texas it never came back. That is, that this season was an exception, and they could not get a car back within ninety days. Now, those complaints have been answered by the Commission by asking them to present all the information that was obtainable as to the conditions at Galveston, and we would like to have whatever knowledge you have as to that situation — as to what relief, if any, can be given— because it is an embarrassment to the ter- ritor}i^ for several hundred miles north of Galveston. Is there any promise that can be held out to these people that that situation or congested condition can be relieved soon ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. According to the facts before you, there are cars enough in Galveston to furnish lading for a very large number of these ships. There are ships enough at Galveston to take the lad- ing of all these cars, and it seems hard to see why they can not get together. That, however, is a local condition that the merchants of Galveston, or the interests in Galveston controlling the wharves, ought to face. My recollection is that our wharf, our new docks, are the only docks in the port that are not owned by a wharl company. Commissioner Lane. There is a local wharf company there? CAB SHOBTAGS. 385 Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes. Commissioner Lane. Not a railroad company! Mr. Kruttschnitt. No, sir; not a railroad company. Commissioner Harlan. How many boats can you load or unload at your wharf in, say, thirty days? Mr. Kruttschnitt. We have dockage at our wharves for 10 large ocean steamers at one time. Commissioner Harlan. Your tracks run right onto your wharves, I suppose ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Our tracks run right onto the wharves, and we have wharves that were designed to handle freight quickly. Pri- marily, they were intended for the accommodation of our new steam- ships that ply between Galveston and New York. Those are steam- ers which will average about 6,000 tons burthen, and will come, dis- charge their cargo, reload, and sail in from thirty-six to forty-eight hours. Commissioner Harlan. Do they take cotton sometimes? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes, indeed; cotton is the bulk of their cargo northbound. Commissioner Hablan. And it is transferred at the harbor in New York? Mr. Ejiuttschnitt. It goes to New York, and then to foreign bot- toms, and also to the New Eno;land mills. Commissioner Harlan. Is there any other company that has track- age rights from your terminals over your wharves ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. No. Commissioner Harlan. So that you are not in a position to assist in relieving the congestion there, except as it may exist on your own hne? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Oh, we could assist. In other words, when- ever the facilities on the docks are more than we require we would naturally assist them, but you can see that the capacity for handling freight t^ere is very large, because the dispatch given to the domestic steamer is considerably greater than can be given to the foreign one. Still, we have loaded large foreign vessels with cotton, with full loads, in from three to four days, and gotten them out, so that with facilities to take ten vessels, even assuming that each one was docked after our own domestic ships, there would be a large capacity there. Commissioner Lane. I have one or two telegrams here regarding the Galveston situation, which I will read to you so that you can see what our information is. One is from the president of the Galveston Cotton Exchange, and he says: There are 4,000 loaded care here waiting to be unloaded in which the shippers keep their goods and pay dpmurrage in preference to receiving. Facilities here far exceeds railways' ability to deliver. They are blockaded in their yards, and can not deliver tonnage as fast as shipping facilities demand, involving heavy loss. Heretofore no demurrage on goods in railway cars has been incurred in Galveston. Here is a telegram from the secretary of the Galveston Chamber of Commerce, in which he says: Consignees have to wait an average of three weeks for notice, and after ordering the railways to deliver. There are 35 foreign steamers here to-day complaining of slow delivery. ^IVTiarves are not in the least congested, but the congestion is in the railway yards. S. Doc. 33?, 69-2 2& 386 CAB SHORTAGE. Do you know anything of that situation? Mr. Kruttschnitt. I do not, except that I would repeat what I have said about our own dock and the wharf company. The tracks leading to these docks belong to the wharf company, and the switch engine and switch crews belong to them, and every road entering Galveston that wishes to get a car to these docks must make delivery to the wharf company, and its switch engine handles the cars to the dock. I should be very glad, if the Commission will permit me to do so, to inquire into this condition more fully, and from the information I have thus received to supplement my present testimony. Commissioner Harlan. This congestion, as I understand it, does not affect your business. Mr. Kruttschnitt. No, it had not the last time I made inquiry or received a report from there. Commissioner Lane. Yes, we would be very glad indeed to have any further report that you wish to make or tne oenefit of any infor- mation you can obtain. Mr. Marble. You have answered that there was (taking all the railroads imder your charge as a unit) a shortage of cars. Would the extraordinary conditions at San Francisco, oy which you were forced, really, to a shortage of cars, and to allow these cars to be used as warehouses — would that account for or explain the shortage ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. I do not know that I thoroughly understand your question, but if you had had these cars regularly we would have been moving the freights that have accumulated. Mr. Marble. So that you would not have been short of cars? Mr. Kruttschnitt. I do not think we would. Perhaps, if I give you some special figures, it will show the reasons by which I reach that conclusion. Mr. Marble. But first, just let us have your conclusion. As I understand it, it is to the effect that had you had these cars, and had them moving the length of time they stood at San Francisco, you would have had cars enough. Mr. Kruttschnitt. And if we had some 2.000 or 2,500 cars deliv- ered, which were promised by the 1st of August, and delivery of which has just been completea, I do not think our lines would nave had a particle of trouble. Mr. aIarble. Without the 2,000 cars of which you speak, would you have had any trouble or scarcity had you had the cars that were used as storehouses? Mr. Kblttschnitt. I think even without the 2,000, had we hacl the San Francisco congestion relieved by the 1st of August we would have had little or no trouble. Mr. Marble. Have you plenty of motive power? Mr. Krlttschnitt. Our motive power is ample for our needs. Every locomotive that was ordered for this busy season was delivered prior to the 1st of August, and in service. Mr. Marble. We would be pleased now to have the figures. Mr. Kruttschnitt. Reports are made to me every ten days of what is called the car shortage — that is, the excess of the requisi- tions for cars over the ability of the managers to furnish them. That shortage reached its maximum early in November, and on the entire system amounted to very few cars more than were involved in the »an Francisco congestion. In other words, about 6,700 cars. That CAB SHORTAQB. 387 number has been reduced. To-day it is only about 4,000; so the situation is materially better. Mr. Marble. How about the situation in Oregon, in reference to which you have testified ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Well, we have made, since the cleaning up of the San Francisco situation — and feeling that those people have nad a very hard time as to railroad transportation — we have made extra- ordinary- efforts to relieve them and have been putting empties into Oregon (juite rapidly, and the situation there is very much improved, and I would repeat that that part of our system was positively the worst off of any. Mr Marble. But the lumber men are still suffering, are they not, for the want of cars up there ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. To a certain extent, yes; but the sitoiation is bein^: relieved daily. Mr. Marble. Can you make any statement or a prediction as to how soon you will be able to handle that business for the lumbermen? Mr.' Kruttschnitt. From our reports, I should say in three or four weeks. Mr. Marble. Then you think you will be practically even? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Easily so, because the crop movement is letting up now, and it will release some cars to go into the lumber business. Commissioner Lane. There has been an extra burden imposed on you in the lumber market in the Northwest country, because of the practical cessation of the operations of the Great Northern and Northern Pacific? Mr. Kruttschnitt. More than that; there has been a protracted strike of the employees of the coastwise steamers, and that has brout^t to us a great deal of lumber from the Puget Sound points and Portland into San Francisco, into Los Angeles, and into San Pedro. That is, those steamers have done that heretofore, and all of that stuff was offered to the railroads and we should have beeen more than glad to take it and handle it but for the want of equipment. Mr. Marble. Do you know the average daily movement of your freight cars? ^lr. Kruttschnitt. Yes; they will average between 25 miles and 30 miles a day. In other words, we get from 9,000 to 10,000 miles per annum per car. Mr. Marble. Have you any remedy to suggest, or any plan to suggest, by which that movement of freight cars could be stimulated and better service afforded, or more miles be traveled? A mile an hour seems rather small. Where is the time lost? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Of course, putting that in another way, that means that the cars are in motion only about 10 per cent of the time. Mr. Marble. About one day in ten? Mr. Kruttschnitt. About one day in ten. Most of the time is lost at destination. Comparatively little of it is lost at the originat- ing point of the freight. At the present time I might say that con- siderable is lost in getting through congested terminals, but that is not a normal condition — that is entirely abnormal. Mr. Marble. You do not regard that as a condition to be con- tended with ordinarily, do you ? Mr. KKUTTSCHNm. By no means. 388 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. What remedy have you in mind that will better that situation, and cause the present number of freight cars to amount to an increased supply, or an added supply, by their increased efiicien^ ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. The conditions that bring this situation about are principally the concentration of shipments at various points. The {)ublic expects the railroads to do too much business in a hm- ited time. I snould say that the first help would be afforded by dis- tributing these shipments somewhat, by providing warehouses, and storage facilities on the farm, at the sugar factory, at the canning factory, and at the sawmill. The modern sawmill will turn out any- where from 200,000 to 250,000 feet of lumber a day, and it expects a daily supply of cars so that it can handle its output immediately. It expects that the road serving it will accomplish that. The lum- ber as it leaves the saw can thus go direct to the car and is shipped at once. The modern sugar factory or cane sugar factory expects at the close of every day to ship the product of that day, and so it goes throughout all of the industries that are served on our lines, and it becomes more and more difficult to provide equipment as it is desired under the modern system of manufacture. If the material were warehoused, and the shipments spread over a longer time, it would be a very great relief. If, on arrival at destination, the freight could be immediately put into warehouses or taken away, it would also afford great reUef . Mr. Marble. I can readily understand how the failure to ware- house farm products, which are produced in great quantities, and but once a year, would have the effect which you suggest; but, take a mill, which produces nearly around the year, why do not its frequent shipments tend to promote the movement of cars rather than to make that movement stagnant ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. It is those shipments, when they are added to the movement of the crops, which embarrass the situation. Those shipments are most active at the time that the crops ai"e moving. Mr. Marble. It is, then, the congestion at the terminals that makes the trouble ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. No; it is the inability then to furnish cars, because everybody wants cars. Mr. Marble. What we are talking about now is the movement of cars; that is, this movement of which you speak, amounting to about 20 miles per day. Mr. Kruttschnitt. You asked how it could be improved, and I say, in two ways; by reducing the delay at the terminal point, an^ equalizing the inflow or influx of traffic at the originating point. Mr. Marble. So that the cars would not have to wait at all to be loaded ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. So there would be a more uniform movement. Mr. Marble. Do you have much trouble now with cars waiting to be loaded ? Having to hold cars for loads ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Not much. The principal delay is getting rid of the freight after it reaches its destination. Mr. Marble. Then, so far as the loading is concerned, the equal- izing of the movement would not have very much effect upon car movement, because the difficulty is not that the car is not loaded promptly; the difficulty is in its being moved ? CAB SHORTAGE. 389 Mr. Kruttschnitt. No, but everybody loading at the same time produces congestion at the terminal points. Mr. Marble. The trouble is felt at the terminals? Mr. Kruttschnitt. You can hardly get traction enough, switch engines enough, to move this stuff promptly when all of the products of the country are moving at one time. Mr. Marble. Do you have trouble occasioned by the abuse of your rules or by the use of your rules at the terminals, by which your cars are held as warehouses ? Mr. IvRLTTSCHNHT. Yes; every road has more or less of that. Mr. Marble. Have you anvthmg in mind by which to correct that, so that the cars, instead of becoming warehouses shall more nearly and more completely be instruments of commerce? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Well, the American Railway Association has recently organized a committee and they have honored me with an appointment on that committee. The business of that committee (and it is called the car efficiency committee) is to study for the entire country the means of increasing the efficiency of the equipment. The committee has only recently been appointed, and is not yet ready to report at all. Mr. Marble. You are not yet ready to report anything at all ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. No, not yet. It is a very complicated situa- tion. It involves the uses of cars as warehouses, a use that has grown up all over the country ; and it involves other privileges extended by the carriers to shippers, that are so intimately connected with the industrial development of the country that to adopt any drastic measures would oe equivalent to causing a great deal of damage. Every road has hesitated to do that. An instance in point is that we have tried for years to get the local coal dealers on our lines to use hopper-bottom cars, so that then the cars could be discharged at once on being put onto their sidetracks. We have even gone to the extent of offering to have our switchmen unload them, but that requires on their part the erection of a small trestle and they have been unwilling to do that. Mr. Marble. Would that be an expensive operation? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Comparatively inexpensive. Mr. M.\rble. Have you a remedy within your power to apply by reducing the time which these hopper-bottom cars shall be allowed to be held by the coal dealers and perhaps increasing the penalty to be assessed if they do not promptly release them ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. That is a measure which we are considering now. Again, you take the smelters in the Utah Valley. We take ore in there and they require 96 hours of free time to unload those cars. I think that is entirely too much. However, that is a condi- tion under wliich the smelting industry has grown up and while we are shortening and reducing the time little by little this year we have not reduced it enough yet, and we appreciate the fact that the remedy must be applied gradually or else we do the injury to these industries. Mr. Marble. Of course, when so many shippers are pleading for cars, if some shippers are allowed to use cars as warehouses to any extent it amounts to a discrimination against those who do not get cars? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Perhaps that is a little farfetched, but it is to a certain extent true. 390 CAR SHOBTAGE. Mr. Marble. It is not thought farfetched, though, by the man who does not get the car. Mr. Kruttschxitt. Now, another means by which we have earnestly sought to avoid this trouble, and a means that we have sought to bring about for the past two or three years, has been to get the coal dealers to store their coal. The average local coal dealer will not order his coal in the summer time when the equij>- ment is plenty and the roads are comparatively free of congestion because the crops are not moving. It would then be simply a matter of moving the coal and stormg it. We have been singularly unsuccessful in prevailing upon the coal dealers to do that. This last summer and spring, after endeavoring to get them to store the coal and meeting with no success in that effort, we tried the experi- ment of making an emergency rate, which was really a sort of a bonus, in order to prevail upon them to store, but, unfortunately, about the time they got themselves moving in the way of storing the coal there was a shortage of miners and great difficulty in getting any coal, so that instead of getting several hundred thousands of tons stored on our lines we only succeeded in getting about 40,000 of 50,000 tons stored by the dealers. It was their fault up to the time we offered the bonus for storing, but when the supply of miners ran short of course they were not to blame. Mr. Marble. You mean they might have stored coal before that time? Mr. Kruttschnitt. They might have stored coal, yes, and get in all they wanted. Mr. Marble. For your own company use, do you store your coal? Mr. Kruttschnitt. We have from thirty-five to forty days' store, but on account of the shortage the coal we stored was rapidly eaten into and on account of the fact that the company furnished it to local dealers to relieve their situation. We have had just the same trouble about coal on our lines, perhaps not as bad as it has been in other parts of the countrv, but bad, nevertheless, and we have re- lieved it in that way. We have gone into other markets and tried to buy coal and furnish the equipment for it, offering to furnish the equipment, in order to provide coal for the railroad company, so as to permit the local mines to sell theirs for domestic use, but we have met with very little success, because the mines can not produce the coal. Mr. Marble. In the region of the California and Texas oil fields, where you use oil, you put it in storage tanks — ^you have the oil stored, do you not? J Mr. KRLTTSCHNrrr. We did, and we planned to put the lines in Oregon of both the Southern Pacific and the Oregon Railway and Navigation Company on oil fuel, and we made our contract. The oil was to be delivered, but we failed to get a single barrel, because the steamer was not completed in time. She was to have been delivered in August to the other company, but I am told now that the first trip will be made in January. Mr. Marble. This criticism of the dealers for not storing their fuel was made at MinneapoUs by a large wholesale dealer, who said he had asked the dealers to store coal, out he also said that he had asked the railroads to store and they had neglected to do so. CAB SHORTAGE. 391 Mr. Kruttschnitt. Well, it has been my policy for years — I should say for ten or twelve years at least — to store every pound of coal in the spring and summer that I could lay hands on. We also endeavor to help out the fuel situation, we did try that, by letting large contracts for fuel oil to the Ix>s Angeles wells to avoid the long hauls over the lines of the Southern Pacific Company, and avoid the shortage of cars in the oil fields, about which there has been some complaint. But, unfortunately, these contracts could not be filled, because the oil wells gave out, and we have had to purchase and haul oil much longer distances than from there, thereby tying up the cars for a longer period than we had intended to. Now, to illustrate the situation, so far as the mines are con- cerned, when the San Francisco situation was relieved, releasing a large number of coal cars, we shipped those East. We shipped the empty coal equipment, rushed it to the mines, in preference to any freight except Uve stock, and those trains had preferences over all trains except passenger trains and live-stock trains. The result of that was that we got the empties to the mines very quickly, and for the last month or six weeks we have had a surplus of empty coal cars at the mines, and have developed their full capacity, so far as we could, and for six weeks there has not been a particle of trouble about coal equipment. Mr. Marble. On any of those lines? Mr. Kruttschnitt. On any of them. There is plenty of coal cars to take care of any activity that the mines may be capable of. They have not plenty of miners, that is the trouble. They could produce more coal, and could ship more coal, if they could get more miners. Mr. Marble. Now, to take up another matter. On shipments of grain into Omaha, for, say, 300 miles, what do you consider the fair movement for a car to make from the time it is billed until it reaches the Missouri River, including its passage through two division points? How long do you think tnat car ought to be en route, fairly? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Oh, not more than three or four days. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not you do actually accom- plish that sort of service? Mr. Kruttschnitt. I do not know. Mr. Marble. You do not know? Mr. Kruttschnitt. No. Mr. Marble. But for such a distance it would be your judgment, as a railroad man, that three or four days is a fau* time, passing through two division points? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Well, I was more familiar with those matters when I was in actual operating charge. For instance, the Southern Pacific would put their overland freights in San Francisco, very regularly, in seven days from New Orleans, which was 2,500 miles. The trains would move through the division terminals, and our aver- age delay was about forty minutes at each division point. Mr. ^Iarble. I am asking in reference to dead freight, such as wheat and coal. Mr. Kruttschnitt. Well, that was freight between New York and San Francisco, the dead freight would move — well, we would 392 CAR SHORTAGE. load a train heavier with the dead freight, and it would make prob- ably half to two-thirds of the miles per day that this time freight would. Mr. Marble. Perhaps 150 miles, instead of 300, or something over 300? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes; I have prepared here a statement from which I read those figures, in reference to the increase of tonnage and equipment, and I have also had them charted. I have also put in increase in second tracks, sidings, yards, and so forth, on those systems, and I have a chart of that. I shall ask leave to file these with the Commission. (The same is hereto annexed and marked "Exhibit No. 1 to Mr. Kruttschnitt' s testimony. ") Commissioner Lane. Yes; file them if you please. Commissioner Harlan. Does that show what appropriations have been made, or do you know what appropriations have been made for this coming year for inrprovements? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Both the equipment is charted and the sidings are charted, and it also includes sidings and equipment contracted for to be finished this year. Just briefly, I can incorporate that in my testimony. In five years, from 1902 to 1906, there were bought 40,200 freight car3, and 1,194 locomotives, costing approximately $60,000,000. We have made very large expenditures all over the line, with the object in view of reducing and eliminating the curves and increasing the trafiic capacity of our lines. We have added from the year 1900 to date, additional second tracks and sidings amounting to 2,244 miles, equivalent to a single track reaching from Chicago to Los Angeles, Cal. Commissioner Lane. Have you anjrthing to say regarding the proposition of reciprocal demurrage ? That question is being agi- tated by very many commercial bodies at this time. Mr. Kruttschnitt. Reciprocal demurrage ? Commissioner Lane. Yes. Mr. Kruttschnitt. I should say, before attempting a solution of that problem, that we ought to have it very clearly stated. Recip- rocal demurrage would be a penalty imposed upon a railroad com- pany for its failure to deliver a car within a specified time. I should judge that is what it means from the testimony that has preceded mine. Commissioner Lane. This is the proposition, as I understand it. There has not been any very clear definition in detail. Ordinarily reciprocal demurrage means a penalty paid by a railroad to a shipper when the shipper has made a demand for a car for a certain number of days and the railroad has not delivered it to him. Mr. Kruttschnitt. Well, what is the duty of the road to furnish the car to the shipper? By that I mean for what purpose must it furnish the car ? Commissioner Lane. For the purpose of transportation. Mr. Kruttschnitt. To what points. Commissioner Lane. And the shipper, it is understood and implied, is responsible, and in fact is able to pay and does pay, or offer to pay, whatever amoimt may be necessary for transportation. CAB SHORTAOB. 393 Mr. Kjiuttschnitt. Well, assume the cars of a given railroad with termini at A and B. Is it contemplated that it must furnish cars for shipment of freight originating at any point on its line des- tined to any other point in the United States, Mexico, or Canada ? Commissioner Lane. You are very much more familiar with the question of such demurrage than I am. Mr. Kruttschnitt. If you will permit me to go on, I will, perhaps, best answer the question by stating what seems to me to be the con- ditions of the problem first and then considering its solution. It is a comparatively easy matter for any line — for our line, if you please — to provide enough equipment and motive power to move promptly any freight that is offered on any point on tne line and take it to any one of our terminal or junction points with other roads. Commissioner Lane. Is that generally so as to all railroads? Mr. Kruttschnitt. I think so. If it is not so, if they have not the equipment now, a very little amount of figuring and ordering of equip- ment would put them in a condition to do that; but if a railroad is expected to furnish to any shipper equipment in unlimited quantity, under penalty if it does not, such equipment to go off of its lines to any pomts in the United States, Canada, or Mexico, I do not know of any commission or body of railroad men that could possibly figure on the amount of equipment that they will have to order to meet those conditions. Therefore, if reciprocal demurrage is to be inaugurated and the railroad penahzed for not meeting demands for equipment at all times for shipment to all points, it must necessarily protect itself by reducing veir much the scope of its traffic. It must cut it oflT at its terminals. Naturally, if the "X, Y & Z road " is to be penalized if it does not furnish cars to go off its line, if its officers have any sense at all, they will say, * ' We will go out of this traffic, then, and take care of the traffic that originates and ends on our own lines. Beyond that we can not go. This must be our position, because how are we to figure and how do we know how much of this through business is coming up next year?" Commissioner Lane. So that you want some way by which you would be assured that the cars, once they get off of your line, would be prornptly returned ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes; and there are no ways to insure that. Commissioner Lane. Can't that be covered by an agreement between the railroads? Mr. Kruttschnitt. I am afraid not. That is one of the difficult problems that the railroads of this country have set before our com- mittee. One of their instructions to that committee is to devise ways and means, or to suggest plans for a car-clearing house, for, as some call it, "a car pool," although it is not properly a pool. While we have had considerable experience in the common use of cars over a very large mileage and where the means of distribution have been entirely within our own hands, yet even that problem seems to me to be one, when extended to all the roads of the country, of extreme intricacy and difficulty. I do not know what solution we will reach. I have given the matter a great deal of thought, and I have talked with a great many railroad-operating officers, m order to gain assistance from their suggestions, but up to the present time I must say there has not been very much assistance offered. Our 394 CAB SHORTAGE. system of lines and the New York Central system, the equipment of those systems, js handled in what we call a clearing house. In other words, it is sought to get the greatest efficiency out of the equipment. Naturally, there must be no unnecessary empty movement or a car. In other words, wherever a car is it can be used, and used to its utmost capacity. If it has to be repaired, it can be repaired wher- ever it is, and there is no necessity of its being hauled to a distant shop. It can be put into the nearest shop and repaired, and the bill for the repairs sent to the owners. In other words, the cars are made to come forward, and their efficiency is very much increased in that way. Now, where the ownership of the cars is all in one interest, and where the power to move these cars is supreme, the problem is com- paratively simple; but when you enlarge the problem to take in the entire United States, it becomes one of very great difficulty. It is a simple matter, if the Pacific coast wants to ship actively, and the Atlantic coast is idle, or vice versa. Then it is a very easy matter for the manager of this car clearing house to order empties from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific coast, or vice versa. But if the Pacific and the Atlantic both want to ship at the same time, then the case becomes very difficult. Commissioner Lane. So as to insure the return of your own cars, would it be possible now for you to fix a Hmit within which the cars should be returned, a certain time hmit? Say that you take a car from San Francisco to New Orleans and then have to let it go up to Memphis. You fix a certain number of days which you, by agree- ment with the Illinois Central, have arrived at. Allow for the pas- sage of a car of dead freight from New Orleans to Memphis, and then for any time over that amount, penaUze them by agreement between yourselves to such an extent as will insure the return of that car or its equivalent to you at New Orleans. Mr. Kruttschnitt. It has seemed to us that a car clearing house, if we could devise one, would be better than that by enabling the Illinois Central, instead of returning that actual car, to substitute one for it where such a substituted car would be nearer the junction point, and more quickly delivered. Commissioner Lane. You would be insured by that scheme, you could make the penalty the amount of the demurrage that you would be charged — if you were charged $5 a day as reciprocal demurrage for failure to furnish a car, you could make that amount payable by the IlUnois Central if they did not return to you the car. Mr. Kruttschnitt. Well, we do that now; not for $5 a day, but for a fixed amount per diem. It is 50 cents now, or rather a number of roads have made an agreement, amongst them the Illinois Central and our road — to which agreement we are both parties — that we are to pay each other 50 cents, instead of 25 cents. That is a tentative measure adopted on the 1st of December. We do not know yet how it will work. A great many people thought it would be effective, and we concluded to try it. Commissioner Lane. My suggestion is not exactly that, but it is one that has just occurred to me — whether it is not possible for you to allow a certati number of days during which the ordinary per diem shall be charged, and when that time comes to an end, then another amount, a very large amount, equivalent to the amount of demur- OAB SHOBTAGE. 395 rage that vou are to pay to the shipper, would be imposed upon the road which keeps your car away from you. Mr. Kruttschnitt. That plan is exactly the American Railway Association's plan that is in use now, except as to the amount. In other words, the per diem, the rate of the association, is 25 cents, which, at the end of twenty days or twenty-five days, increases to $1. That has not been particularly efficacious in bringing the cars back; and in this new agreement, making the per diem 50 cents, we concluded to try how the abolition of the penalty would work. In other words, it sliOuld be uniformly 50 cents up to the end of a certain number of days, and then raising it by multiplying it by four. CoDMnissioner Lane. Heretofore has it been that the railroad that kept a car away longer than twenty-five days had to pay $1 a day for it? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes. Commissioner Lane. The railroad did? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes. Commissioner Lane. Has that been in force? Mr. Kruttschnitt. Yes. The objection to it was this: That the road finding that it was about to incur this increased penalty got very busy and delivered these cars to another line. In other words, they would break the penalty in that way. They would make a delivery before the time of the extra compensation, they would make their delivery before that began, ana then the other road would be possessed of the car and would wait until it devolved upon it to get tne car back to the owner within the twenty-five days. Mr. Marble. You found also that there entered into the question the element of fictitious delivery, did you not? Mr. Kjiuttschnitt. It is claimed that something of that sort has existed. Mr. Marble. DeUveries made simply for the purpose of breaking the penalty ? Mr. Kruttschnitt. It is so stated by the car service committee to the association that that practice was indulged in. Whereupon the further hearing of said matter was adjourned until 7.30 p. m. the same day, December 20, 1906. night session. December 20, 1906 — 7:30 p. m. Commissioner Lane. The Commission is in receipt of a telegram from Mr. Howard EUiott, president of the Northern Pacific road, in which he says : No shortage of provisions so far as we know at any point on our line in North Dakota. The company is doing all it can, as stated at Minnea|x>liB, to furnish fuel at all points. Mr. Marble. Mr. Sanford, of the Car Service Association, was asked to bring in some figures showing the amoimt of delay in Chicago. Shall I read it or simply put it in? Commissioner Lane. File it with the testimony. Mr. Marble. I will do so. I will also ask that this statement [referring to a list of railroads joining in the per diem rule] be put in as a part of the testimony of Mr. Midgley. It contains that list of railroads. 396 CAB SHORTAGE. (The same are hereto annexed and marked "Exhibit No.l — San- ford;" and "Exhibit No. 1— Midgley.") There is also here a letter from the Kensal Farmers' Elevator, of Kensal, N, Dak., in which it is said: We have 310.000 bushels of grain stored here at the present time, of which 127,000 bushels is thrown in seven temporary outside bins, with no roof or covering of any kind. Commissioner Lane. What road is that on ? Mr. Marble. That is on the Soo. Here is a cartoon prepared by the manager of the Ilhnois and Iowa Car Service Association, which he expects to distribute January 1, 1907, making an argument for a demurrage rate of $3 a day, and a reconsigning charge of $5 a car, which I will ask to file. This is to be distributed among the shippers. The same are hereto annexed and marked ' 'Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, Mr. Marble, Chicago, December 20, night session." Daniel Willard, having been called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Marble. You reside in Chicago! Mr. Wellard. I do. Mr. Marble. You are vice-president of the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad? Mr. Wellard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What part of the operation of that road is under your charge 1 Mr. Willard. I have chaise of the operation and maintenance of the whole system. Mr. Marble. The operation and maintenance? Mr. Willard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy suffering from a shor tag e of cars? Mr. Willard. Why, yes ; to some extent, but no more than our neighbors. Mr. Marble. Some of your neighbors report that they are short of cars and others that they are not. Mr. Willard. Well, we are. Mr. Marble. You think that more cars would remedy the trouble, or would you remedy it by a change in the terminals or a change in methods ? Mr. Wellard. Of course, something done in various directions would no doubt help remedv the situation. I do not know that any one particular thing would help it. The trouble with the Burlington sys- tem is perhaps, as much as anything else, that our business has increased to an extraordinary deo:ree in the last year, and we did not foresee sufficiently what our requirements would be. I say "we," but I will change that so as to make it personal — I, myself. The president of the Burlington has called on me to give him estimates of the amount of equipment needed from time to time, since I have been with the company, and I have endeavored to look ahead so far as I could and make my recommendations accordingly. I have recommended such purchases as I thought were necessary, and they have always been approved. I have reason to believe that, had I recommended more liberal purchases, they would also have been approved, so that if we are CAB SHOBTAOE. 397 short to-day (and we are to some extent, perhaps) the fault pri- marily rests with me for not looking further into the future. Mr. Marble. You got such equipment as you ordered ? Mr. WiLLARD. Not altogether, out I will explain that. A year ago we had a very prosperous year and our equipment was all used to its fullest extent, out we had no very general complaint of shortage, and I think we satisfied generally our patrons in a very good way. Of course, we are anxious to do all the business we can do, neces- sarily, because the more business the more earnings for the rail- road, and more business also meant that the ratio of operation or operating expense would be less, which would be to my credit, and our self-mterest naturally impelled us to want to do all the business we could. The outlook for the future seemed good, and we placed orders for 200 locomotives, in the aggregate, to be received during the present year of 1906. Of these 200 locomotives so ordered, we have received up to date, I think, 146. They are or have been here since the 1st of November, and some since the fore part of October. But the manufacturers have not been able to keep their dates, and we have been disappointed to that extent, because of not getting our locomotives. Tney are now, however, coming in. That increase in locomotives was equal, probably, in efficiency (considering the fact that they were modern and large engines) to somewhere from 20 to 30 per cent in the capacity of our engines assigned to the heavy freight service. We also placed orders for 5,000 freight cars. Of that number 2,000 and just a few hundred have been received only. One thousand steel gondolas that have just begun to arrive should all have been here in October. They were promised for delivery in October, and they were ordered in anticipation of the fuel business, but the manufacturers were unable to fill the orders. The 2,000 box cars which should be coming to-day — we should have had at this time probablv 500 — have not begun to come at all, but we expect that tney will begin to reach us, at the latest, some time in January. We will have 2,000 cars coming in in January or February' that should have been here in November and December. Now, that increase in car equipment, in capacity, is about 20 per cent of the equipment — what our equipment was before the order was placed. We felt that in ordering that number of cars we were not only providing for any reasonable increase in traffic, but that we were going considerably ahead of what we might reasonably anticipate. Last year the ton-miles of the Burlington road increased 20 per cent. It so happened that the increase in ton-milage was about the same as the increase in the equipment ordered. If the eq^uipment ordered had been received as expected, we would have been m oetter shape to take care of our people. Even as it is, the situation has not been very serious. West of tne Missouri River there has been no gen- eral complaint so far as coal loading is concerned, and there is no foundation whatever for any complamt against the Burlington Com- pany now, because for the last six weeks or two months we have fur- nished all the cars that could be loaded with coal in Wyoming, in the Sheridan district, and we have given our connections at Denver all the cars they would take for points in southern Colorado and for eastern Nebraska points. In fact, we have hauled empties up there in excess 398 CAB SHORTAGE. of their requirements, so that west of the Missouri River there has been no shortage of coal. There has been at times, and there probably may be to-day, a small shortage of cars for grain loading in eastern Nebraska, perhaps 200 or 300 cars, but that shortage does not exist for any great length of time. If there were a shortage to-day there would be a very slight, if any, shortage to-morrow. There is no case so far as I know where any ele- vator is full or unable to receive grain. The movement from eastern Nebraska just now is particularly active, and has been for the last week or ten days, which condition I suppose is brought about by favorable market conditions. East of the Missouri River we are fail- ing to fill our orders for coal loading in southern Illinois. I think it is, however, fair to say that we are furnishing 75 per cent of the cars that are asked for. We are generally able to fill orders pretty well on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. The last davs in the week we fail more or less, but I think that 75 per cent of what is required is a fair statement of the situation. So far as I have heard there has been no single instance of great suf- fering on our line; certainly, no requests at all have reached my office for any special movement of any special car for any special place. There has been some complaint (and I regret very much to admit that we have not been able to meet it) because we have not had the cars. We are more fortunate than our neighbors in some respects, with reference to interchange. In October our car-balance sheet showed that we had 4,000 more cars off the line than there were foreign cars on our line. Since that time there has been a very heavy movement of business via the Burlington line from its Eastern connections, and to-day I suppose there are about 2,000 more foreign cars on the Bur- lington than there are Burlington cars off the line. That condition of affairs comes about because of the change in the movement of commodities and cars coming onto our line loaded. There is no loading to take them off, practically, and they do not get back as promptly as they should. We are not short of equipment to-day because or our cars not being at home. We have as many cars belonging to other people as they have of ours. Commissioner Lane. How many cars have you ? Mr. WiLLARD. About 48,000. Commissioner Lane. About 48,000 cars? Mr. WiLLARD. Yes, sir; about that. Mr. Marble. Have you a car list showing the cars that are off your line and foreign cars on your line ? Mr. WiLLARD. I have not it with me, but I can get it. We have such a weekly statement made. Mr. Marble. I wish you would furnish us with such a statement, showing for the last three months the balances as they have run. Mr. WiLLARD. I would be very glad to. In that connection I have a statement, which I would be glad to give you if you desire it. It is a summary of our daily operation, and it shows tne operations of the previous day (I think I have it with me). It shows, I think, for to-day that the total number of loads and empties ready to be moved on the entire system is less than one-half of the number of loads and empties moved during the previous twenty-four hours. I mention that to show that there is no congestion on the road; that the business that OAK SHORTAGE. 399 was at stations to be moved is, in the aggregate, less than one-half of the business handled throughout the previous twenty-four hours. ^Ir. Marble. These statements show the freight-car movements day by day ? Mr. WiLLARD. Yes, sir. Those statements are prepared in very much more detail, the statements that are filed at my office every morning. I would be glad to furnish you with a file oi the originals. It simply shows that the business is not congested. Mr. Marble. I will file tliis with your testimony. What is the average daily movement of your freight cars? Mr. WiLLARD. Last year, the year ending June 30, 1906, it was 30 miles a day, or, rather, 29.9 miles per day for the year. In October last it was — that is this very last October — it was 33.3. The figures showing the average for the year, however, are hardly fair for this reason: Generally, from the first of April to the first of October, we have a large number of empty cars that of course are included in the divisor when getting at the average miles of cars, the average miles of all cars. I suppose one-third thereof was coal-car equipment which is out of service during the summer to a certain extent, and more or less of our box-car equipment. Still, many of our stock cars are also idle in the summer months, so that the figures in the summer, which would be included in the years average, are less than they should be, because of the fact that we are not able in the summer to make the same number of miles. Mr. Marble. Then you have increased the movement this year over Ifist? Mr. WiLLARD. The average miles made by all cars on the Burling- ton system for the year ending June 30, 1905, was 27 miles per car per day. For the following year, made under exactly the same con- ditions, it was 29.9 per day, or an increase of about 9 per cent. We made in October this year 33.3 with all cars and I thinK we are doing just as well now. Mr. Marble. Well, then, this year shows a decided increase over last year. Mr. WiLLARD. I think it will, for the reason that there has been a more active demand for the cars this year than there was a year ago, but it is dependent somewhat of course on the weather conditions during the winter months. If the weather should be very severe that would reduce the mileage. Mr. Marble. Is this increase in mileage at all due to any change in methods on the part of the road? Mr. WiLLARD. I think it is possibly due to the fact that we have been giving the matter very close attention for some time past, because our business has been particularly good, and we have oeen putting forth every effort on our part to take care of such increase. We have availed ourselves of eveiy rule that we could think of in order to increase our mileage. We have watched the cars very closely, and we have a system of reports showing delays at all ter- minals that is very complete in its details. The matter is very closely watched by officers appointed for that purpose, and we have done as well as we know how in trj'ing to get the maximum mileage. I think it is only fair to say that any improvement that has been made has been due to the fact that we have watched it more closely perhaps 400 OAB SHOBTAOS. than before. Then, too, before that the business was not so heavy and we were not pressed so hard. The fact that we are doing it a little better now is perhaps because the pressure is a little greater and has been so for the last year. Mr. Marble. It is then a more vi^lant enforcement of the rules now existing rather than any change m the rules? Mr. WiLLARD. I think so. I may say this, however, that in the last year we have been authorized by the directors to spend nearly $4,000,000 — I think three million seven himdred odd thousand — in the improvement of terminals. At Galesburg, which is our first heavy division terminal west of Chicago, we are just completing arrangements that will cost about $700,000. We are expending now more than $1,000,000 at Lincoln, Nebr., in the improvement of ter- minals at that place. Now we have built this summer at Harlem, which is just this side of Kansas City, a new terminal which will cost upward of $300,000, and we have had to enlarge many of the termi- nals all along the road — at Denver and Omaha, and all along — and the aggregate amount of money which will probably be expended for that purpose will be not far from $4,000,000. Of course we ought to have received some benefit from those expenditures, if they were wise, and those improvements have no doubt helped somewhat to bring about a better movement of the cars. Mr. Marble. Take for illustration a point 300 miles west of Chi- cago and a car of grain billed for the Chicago market passing through two division points. What length of time do you consider fair serv- ice for you to give that car before it is reported m here ? Mr. WiLLARD. If that car should came over our own main line from Omaha, and pass through Iowa, passing through our main line terminals, it ought to get here at the rate of — it ought not to consume over twelve or fourteen hours per 100 miles, including the terminal delays. That would be contingent, of course, on some things. If we should receive cars for shipment of grain, for instance, on Monday, they might be detained for this reason : We have a very heavy move- ment of stock into Chicago on Monday, sometimes aggregating as many as 800 cars, and it takes practically all of our available power from Galesburg on Monday to bring that stock in. The power has to get back again, and on Monday, sometimes on Wednesdays and Thursdays, slow freight is delayed waiting for the preferred move- ment of stock. On other days there should be no such delay, and the grain ought to come 300 miles over the main lines at the rat« of 100 miles in iFourteen hours. Mr. Marble. That includes the time in the division points? Mr. WiLLARD. Over our main line; but if that should come 300 miles over our branch lines (and 50 per cent of the mileage of the Bm"lington system is made up of brancnes on some of which the traffic is so light that we only run a way freight — one way freight each way — the runs are short and are afl^ected by local conditions) if the car came over such a portion of the road as that, it would not make the same movement, because the way freights only run during the day time. Mr. Marble. And you have such lines in Illinois? Mr. WiLLARD. Oh, yes. Mr. Marble. And in Iowa? CAB SHOBTAOB. 401 Mr. WiLLABD. Yes. Mr. Mabble. And in Nebraska) Mr. WiLLABD. In every State ; yes. Mr. Mabble. Now, wnat proportion of the time taken by any usual shipment of grain would be on such a branch line ? Mr. WiLLABD. I could not answer that directly. As I say, about 51 per cent of our entire sj'stem is made up of what we consider as branch lines, and yet about 50 per cent, I suppose, or 90 per cent of the business is done on 50 per cent of the railroad. Mr. Mabble. Oil the mam line ? • Mr. WiLLABD. Yes. Mr. Mabble. And you fix that at from twelve to fourteen hours per 100 miles? Mr. WiLLABD. Assuming that it would come on a slow freight. I might mention this: The speed of our freight trains is very largely determined by commercial conditions. Take the main line of the Burhngton road. Our records which have been kept for two or three years, made up on a practical basis, show that about 45 to 47 per cent of the freight-train miles on the main hne are run by what we speak of as " expedited trains." That is, a train that makes a fast rate of speed in order to meet service conditions. For instance, take the stock runs and the movement of merchandise and high-class freight between Chicago and the Missouri River. That 47 per cent of our rreight-train miles shows an average train of less than 68 per cent of the capacity of the engine, and even so much more freight as these trains do haul is not all fast freight. We run 5 or 6 fast freights out of here every night, and the average train consists of less than 68 per cent of the capacity of the engine; but the fast freight, which necessitates the running of that train, will constitute only a portion of the freight which is so carried, and in that event anything that happens to be going in that direction is put into the train in order to bring it up to 67 or 68 per cent of the capacity of the engine; so that if a car of slow freight happens to get on to that train, it would make that much better time. Mr. Mabble. You do that often — put on that class of freight often? Mr. WiLLABD. Yes, and our engines haul less than 68 per cent of what they should haul at a more moderate rate of speed. Mr. Mabble. WTiat difference in running time between Chicago and Omaha do you figure that it would make to load that engine 90 per cent of its capacity, instead of 68 per cent ? Mr. WiLLABD. It would make a difference of quite a good many hours. We run stock from Omaha to Chicago in twenty-four hours — twenty-four to twentv-eight hours. The slow train would probably be nearer forty-eight hours. Mr, Mjvbble. And that engine would be loaded to what capacity or to what extent of its capacity? Mr. WiLLABD. To its full capacity, whatever it would pull and get along in good shai)e. Mr. Mabble. Get along in good shape) Mr. WiLLABD. Yes. Mr, ^Iabble. That is to say, without dragging, and without delay- ing other trains by failing to make meeting points? Mr. WiLLABD. Of course, that would De proper railroading, to so load the engines that they can accomplish that result, get over S. Doc. 333, 59-2 ^26 402 CAB SHORTAGE. the road without dragging. I think there is considerable misunder- standing among many people as to the loading of an engine. On almost any rauroad, the proper data would show — or on almost any division accurate information would show that perhaps not over 30 per cent of the total miles of that division would be of the maximum grade. Necessarily the engines are given a train which they can pull up the maximum grade and very rarely does that exceed 30 per cent of the entire division. This results necessarily in what would be underloading of the power were it not for the maximum grades for the division. We have no cars at the top of the grade to put in to the train, and the engine from that point on is nmning with a light load. Take it from the Missouri River clear through to Chicago, our ruling grade is sixty-six hundredths of 1 per cent. But, with the exception of a few iniles, a strip about 6.8 miles long the balance of the grade is not more than three-nundredths of 1 per cent, and while the engine can only haul, perhaps, 1,500 or 1,600 tons up the 0.66 grade, which is the maximum grade, it could haul 2,500 tons after it got up there, but we haven't the 2,500 tons to put on, unless we have helpers to push them up the maximum grade, and we do that in the busy season. After the train gets up there, it is naturally running with a very much less tonnage than the engine could haul, but that is necessary so that draggiug may not occiu*. Dragging, as we say, usually takes place on a very small por- tion of the road, and of course, on a division which is handling a con- siderable amomit of business, there can not be much dragging, or it would greatly reduce the capacity of that division to move business. It would result in the trains consuming too much time. Mr. Marble. Are you familiar with the pay rolls of your engine force? Mr. Wellard. Yes, to some extent. Mr. Marble. Are they generally paid on a mileage basis? Mr. Wellard. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Is there much overtime earned ? Mr. WiLLARD. Yes, on some divisions. On some divisions it runs very high, and on others verv low. East of the Missouri River it runs from 5 to 6 per cent, and in some months higher. West of the river it runs sometimes as high, on some divisions as high as 20 per cent; and I am very much ashamed of that. Mr. Marble. Wnen it is 20 per cent that means about two hours a day overtime for the men ? Mr. WiLLARD. It means more than that for the trains that get it, because the majority of the trains get over the road and don't make it, but those that do make it make a lot of it. That is caused some- times by bad water; that happens on the western portion of the Une, where the water is bad. In some instances weatner conditions are severe, and it seems as if all things were conspiring to retard the move- ment of freight. Mr. ^Iarble. Do you regard a car movement averaging from 27 to 33 miles per day as satisfactory, in view of the fact that slow freight, when it moves, moves 7 or 8 miles per hour ? Au-. WiLLARD. We have no case where slow freight moves that slow when it moves. Mr. Marble. Well, that makes the comparison still greater. Do CAB 8HOBTAOB. 403 you regard this movement of freight cars as satisfactory, or do you think tne movement of freight cars should be and can be stimulated ? Mr. WiLLARD. I think it should be. Just how it can be I am not so clear. I am trying all I can, and I have been for some 3'ears, to stimulate the movement of freight cars, but I have not met with very encouraging success. We have done what we have done; we have done the best we could, and we have succeeded in making the increase that I have mentioned. I am ashamed every time that I ask the owners of the property to buy additional cars, when I have to show that we are only doing what we are. Mr. Marble. Have you had much trouble with cars being used as warehouses? Mr. WiLLARD. Well, we share it in common with other roads. Mr. Marble. Is that due to the fact that your rules are not prop- erly framed, or to the fact that thev are abused? Mr. WiLLARD. You might say that it is owing to both of those causes. Railroad contlitions and the whole scheme of transportation, the transpK)rtation end and the commercial end, are two things which are interwoven to such an extent that none of the various conditions which we confront have appeared suddenly. They have grown up together and gradually. The facilities with which manufacturers and people who do business with us provided themselves some years ago nave in some degree at least become smaller rather than larger. That may be said to be owing to this reason: Here in Chicago, people doing business here purchased land some years ago, and put a plant upon it, and had sufficient surplus land for storage room and trackage facilities. Since then commercial conditions have warranted them in increasing their plants, and they have done so, but they have used up the storage room and they have not any more trackage room than they had before. They have been severely pressed under such con- ditions to handle the business, and of course it complicates and embarrasses our end of it. Of course, when I say, and when it is a fact, that the railroad business has increased 20 per cent in the last year it simply means that the business of everyoody else which we serve has increased to the same extent. I think the shippers are fully alive to the situation. I find them so along our entire system. I think they appreciate the fact that the unnecessary detention of cars means fewer cars for all, and we have found them as a rule willing to cooi>erate with us. They can not bring about a change all at once. I believe if we should say to the man who had been detaining cars three or four days that on to-morrow we were going to cut him off and let him have a car only one day it would not be right. I think the people that we serve, as a rule, are willing to edjust themselves to tne conditions, and are doing it as rapidly as they can. Air. Marb'.e. You do not feel at all like laying the blame for the matter entirely on the shippers or entirely on the railroads? Mr. WiLLARD. No; I tnmk it has been mutual. The growth has gone ahead of anything that either one of them could foresee. We would know how to deal with shippers if they detained our cars unnecessarily. Mr. Marble. Are you making or do you contemplate making any change in your rules? 404 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. WiLLARD. Yes, we have made some change abeady. The matter was discussed to-day, as to the reconsis^mnent of coal. We have had some trouble of that kind. Coal woul3 come into our yards here in Chicago and not be consigned promptly. We saw the people who were doin^ it and explained to them wnat happened under such conditions, ana in most instances they were willing to meet the situ- ation. There happened to be two or three little cases where they did not respond, and I gave instructions to the effect that we would not furnish cars for their loading. That settled that. I have not any fear at all but what we will be able to work out wnth our shippers such improvements as may be necessary, or which are, at any rate, desir- able. One thing that we have tried to encourage for the last few years, and in reference to which we have met with very good success, is the matter of having people who receive coal put themselves in a little better shape to unload cars more promptly, but even in that regard we have not been able to do quite as we ought to. We have bought in the last three years 3,000 box cars with the bottoms fixed so the coal could be dropped out, and of the 11,000 open gondola cars we have there are 4,000 with droj>-bottom arrangements. We have said to our shippers, "We would like to have you erect a small trestle at ter- minals, and we will put the cars on there, and you can dump them quickly and save the expense of shoveUng, and save the delay to the cars." In some cases they have done that, but of course it follows that where only half of our equipment is so fixed we can not always guar- antee that after they have spent their money for the trestle they will always get the cars that will dump. We have not been able to press it and say, "You must do this," because it might happen that after they had got their trestle fixed we would give them a car that could not be dumped at all. But they show a disposition to be fair — at least I find them so. Mr. Marble. Have you plenty of power, motive power? Mr. WiLLARD. Yes, we have a surplus of power. Six weeks ago, in October or September, we loaned 15 of our best engines to the Great Northern road to help them, and now we have them all back, and there is no shortage of power on our system whatever. We are not short, and our daily statement shows tnat there is no congestion on the line anywhere, and we have got about forty more engines com- ing within the next two or three weeks. Mr. Marble. How about labor? Mr. WiLLARD. Labor is hard to get in certain lines. Mr. Marble. Eno;ine hands? Mr. WiLLARD. We have no trouble with them. The only trouble we have had from labor is that we have been very much handicapped in making improvements — terminal improvements. It was very hard to get unskilled labor during the summer, and part of the work that should have been finished some weeks ago is not finished yet. Mr. Marble. Skilled labor you have had no difficultj- m obtaining? Mr. WiLLARD. We have had no difficulty in getting all of that we needed. We have taken care of our cars and engines. Mr. Marble. And yet, with all of these difficulties, so far as you have described them, according to this statement here you are only CAR SHORTAGE. 405 about half a day behind in your business, so far as movement of loaded cars is concerned? Mr. WiLLARD. Oh, no. We never would get any closer up than that. We could not get any closer. I think that statement is as good as we could get. I would not undertake to say that with all the facilities we could get, that we could make it much better than that is, as far as the movement is concerned. The only way that we are hurt in the shortage of equipment is this: We are not able to give every- body a car who wants to load one to-day. We are failing to furnish every man with a car who has a load to ship. Of course, From purely selfish interests, we would be glad to furnish everyone a car who wanted one. Our earnings would be better if we had more cars, but the cars that we have are being moved promptly; there is no conges- tion anywhere. Commissioner Lane. Does your report mean that to-morrow you will be able to give the man who wants one a car? Mr. WiLLARD. No, that report has no reference to the furnishing of cars, but to the movement of the car that has been loaded, and the number of empties available. That is a report taken at 5 o'clock every morning on the whole system, showing the number of loads and empty cars at all points awaiting movement; also showing that the number of loads and empties at all points awaiting movement at 5 o'clock this morning was less than hair in number of the total num- ber that was used yesterday, so that we are then within twelve hours of being out of business. There is no congestion there. Commissioner Lane. Does not that mean that the man who wants a car for to-morrow can get it ? Mr. WiLLARD. No, it does not mean that. It means that all the empties we have are being moved promptly, but it does not mean that we have got all the empties that our shippers would like. Commissioner Lane. Well, 75 per c^nt of tnem? Mr. WiLLARD. That is in soutnern Illinois. West of the river we are very' much better than that, because we have taken especial pains west of the river to keep our cars well supplied out there. The people along our line have to depend on the Burlington Road, and the situ- ation is somewhat different than it was in southern Illinois. There has been no shortage in Wyoming. Mr. Marble. Those orders that are behind or that you don't fill — does that mean that you refuse to take those orders? Mr. WiLLARD. No, no; the man will order 20 or 30 cars to load with coal to-morrow, and perhaps we are only able to furnish 15, and the next day he will get 15, and the next day we furnish 15. It means simply that we are not able to give every man all the cars he would like to load coal in. Mr. Marble. Do you know whether or not any of these people ordering cars are acquainted with this fact, and are ordering more than they really want so as to get what they do want? Mr. WiLLARD. We sometimes find that to be the fact, but to what extent that applies in this case I am unable to say. There are some thin^ in the coal business affecting the use of cars; some of them are withm the power of the shippers to fijc and some are perhaps not. There is a rule that obtains in all the soft-coal territory, which is this: Unless a car that is for that day's loading — all cars for that day's load- ing — is placed in not later than 8 o'clock in the morning, the miners 406 CAB 8H0BTAGB. won't go into the mine, and if the cars should arrive later these empties remain idle imtil the following day. Now, the mine operator can not help that condition of things, because that is a rule of the union and he is powerless. It is one of the conditions that work against the best use of the equipment. Then, again, some of the mines have not prepared themselves to load box cars. They want open cars all the time and, we are sometimes compelled to furnish box cars and stock cars for loading, and they can not load them because they have not arranged for it. In nearly aU cases they can only load a certain number of box cars, because they have a portion of their output which is screened fine coal, and that is all loaded in open cars, and unless we furnish a sufficient number of open cars together with the box cars they won't run them out. Mr. !Marbl£. Has your company had any peculiar difficulties at the Chicago terminal? Mr. WiLLABD. Nothing peculiar. We get a little crowded here, but we took measures withm the last two weeks to clear up our yard, and we have no congestion in Chicago to-day at all. Mr. Marble. Has it been true that grain in cars of the Burlington road was selling for less on the board of trade in this city than gram in cars of other roads ? Mr. WiLLABD. It may be ; I have not heard of it. Mr. Mabble. Your situation here is better than it has been ? Mr. WnxABD. It is absolutely aU right. We have no congestion at all. Conunissioner Hablan. If you have no congestion, then your difficu lty is simply the complamt of car shortage. Mr. WiLLABD. That is aU the difficulty that I am aware of. All the complaint that I know of to-day would be that of certain shippers who have ordered 20 cars and only got 15. There will be cases on the Burlin^on to-day, and every day this year, and every year, where cars will be imexpectedly detain^ or they will be held for repairs or something, in a way that makes us all blush when we hear aoout it. That is perhaps due to lack of system, or the need of better discipline, or thin^ of that kind, but that is no greater to-day than it has been at aU tunes. There are, of course, individual and exceptional cases, but the only real complaint that I know of that could be made against our company is that we are failing in Illinois to furnish 100 per cent of the empties ordered. I think we are furnishing 75 per cent or more. Commissioner Hablan. Have you many complaints coming to you from shippers along your line ? Mr. WiLLABD. Some from shippers, but I have not had any from consignees. It is not an imcommon thing to receive a letter from a shipper saying that yesterday he only got 15 cars where he ordered 20. Commissioner Hablan. Practically none from consignees? Mr. WiLLABD. I have not had any that I recall. Commissioner Hablan. Do you tnow what the appropriation for this year is for iinprovements and betterments for your system f Mr. WiLLABD. I know what they were in the year 1906. Commissioner Hablan. What w'ere they for 1906? Mr. WnxABD. We had a lot of them that ran over, that were not CAB SHOBTAQB. 407 completed, which we worked up this year. Those that were incom- plete and, I believe, the new works were upward of $16,000,000 for equipment and new work. Commissioner Harlan. What was it the year before? Mr. WiLLARD. I do not remember, but I should imagine that we spent the year before probably $6,000,000 or $7,000,000. Commissioner Harlan. That is exclusive of car equipment? Mr. WiLLARD. Well, not this year, no. Of the $16,000,000 this year, there was about $4,000,000 for new car equipment. Those figures, however, I would be glad to furnish you. Commissioner Harlan. If you will we will be glad to have them, beginning with the year 1901. Mr. WiLLARD. I am just speaking from memory, of course. Commissioner Harlan. A statement showing the appropriation for improvements and car equipment, and then the additions to ter- minal faciUties, tracks, and so on. Mr. Willakd. I will be very glad indeed to do that. Commissioner Harlan. Also showing your increase in tonnage over the same period, and your purchase of new cars. Mr. WiLLARD. Yes, sir; I will be glad to do so. Mr. Marble. And, if you can do so, showing your probable expen- ditures for next year. Mr. WiLLARD. I have been already authorized to purchase 75 loco- motives and I have placed an order, and I will have a balance of 25 for next year. We will probably purchase 100 locomotives. I have recommended that we try to get 5,000 cars next year. We probably can not get them delivered, but we can get some of them. To-day we can not get deliveries promised until next October. Commissioner Harlan. Don't you build your own engines? Mr. WiLLARD. No, sir. We have built some since I have been with the company. We have built about 20 switch engines, but we have increased our equipment so rapidly that our shop capacity has not Permitted us to take care of it and build new engines. We expect, owever, this next year to ask for authority to spend a million ana a quarter on increased shop facilities and we may be able to then build a few switch engines. We would not undertake to build the heavy freight or passenger engine. Mr. Marble. You will bring the car sheets showing the number of your cars on foreietween the time when the car is placed at the consignee's dis- posal and the time when you get it back into your hands and return It to the originating road? Mr. Earl. Most of those cars are owned by the industries doing business at the yards. Mr. Marble. You do not feel concerned, then, with the length of time that is taken ? Mr. Earl. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Well, as to the other 50 per cent of your business, what does that consist of ? Mr. Earl. Well, various commodities — coal and lumber. Mr. Marble. Wheat? Mr. Earl. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You don't handle any wheat business! Mr. Earl. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Coal and lumber? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What length of time do you take for the switching service on that ? Mr. Earl. Well, it depends a good deal on circumstances. Mr. Marble. Well, state the extreme length of time. Mr. Earl. Of course, the movement of stock and of perishable freight must be given preference in all cases, and it is difficult to say just what the average time is. I do not know that I ever had occa- sion to figure that out. Commissioner Hari^n. How long have you been connected with your road ? Mr. Earl. Something over two 3'ears. It may be proper to state to the Commission that my duties are more in connection with the accounting department than with the operating department, so I am somewhat incompetent to give the Commission all the informa- tion they would like to have. Perhaps some other official of the company would be better. 414 CAB SHORT AOB. Mr. Marble. Is it not a fact that your road is very largely occu- pied with packing-house business, bringing in packing-house supplies, and in taking their products away to the different railroads? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is a large part of its business, is it not? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir ; quite a large part. Mr. Marble. And that is handled in private cars very largely ? Mr. Earl. Why, to a certain extent ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Well, to what extent ? Mr. Earl. Well, that I could not say. Mr. Marble. We have found all these railroad men very ready with figures of percentages. Mr. Earl. Yes. Well, I should say something over 50 per cent. Mr. Marble. And that is in private cars? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir. Of course now in addition to serving indus- tries, we do an interchange business with different roads. We do not handle cars to any extent with our own power, but the roads make use of our tracks in making their deliveries to different lines. Mr. Marble. The business that is handled with your power — what is that? Is it largely this packing-house business that we have described ? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. AVhat per cent of your business would be made up in that way? Mr. Earl. It is quite a large percentage ; I have not any figures. Mr. Marble. Fifty per cent ? Mr. Earl. O, yes. Mr. Marble. Considerably more? Mr. Earl. Well, I should say considerably more. Mr. Marble. Possibly 75 ? Mr. Earl. Possibly 75 per cent. Mr. Marble. The coal switching that you do, does that consist of taking reconsigned coal cars from the railroads entering Chicago and delivering them to the road taking the coal out of Chicago ? Mr. Earl. No, sir; we do not do any of that business to speak of. Cars are reconsigned before they reach us, to industries in the stock yards, and we deliver to the industry. Mr. Marble. It is largely a stock-yards business? Mr. Earl. Yes, and there is no reconsigning done at the yards, or at least a very small amount. Mr. Marble. "What length of time is consumed by a coal car taken to the stock yards, between the time you receive the car from the originating road and the time when you deliver the empty back to the road which gave it to you ? Mr. Earl. Well, I do not really know. It might possibly be seven days. Mr. Marble. You consider that about the average? Mr. Earl. I should say so, ves. Mr. Marble. How much oi that time has been consumed by your road as necessary time for the performance of the physical operations which it does perform ? Mr. Earl. Well, I should say it would be four days on the average. Mr. Marble. That is to say, you are occupying four days with the car? CAB 8HORTAOB. 415 Mr. Earl. I think possibly that would be it. Mr. Marble. And if the consignee holds the car about three days on the average, that would make up the seven ? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir; that is as close an estimate as I could make; and possibly I have estimated our own detention a little too high. Maybe the consignees detain the cars longer than that, and I think, prooably, take it from day to day, it will average up about 50 per cent eacli. Mr. Marble. You think it is about half and half? Mr. Earl, Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Do you regard your service in respect of time as sat- isfactory, considering the operations which you perform, or do you hope to better that? Mr. Earl. Well, in dealing with that situation, we are doing the best we can, as well as we can under the conditions. Mr. Marble. Do you hope to better the conditions? Mr. Earl. We do not feel that we will be able to under the circum- stances. Mr. Marble. Under the circumstances? Mr. Earl. The district is very much congested over there. Mr. Marble. You have not enough facilities so far as trackage room is concerned? Mr. Earl. It is the question of room, space. Mr. Marble. You need more room? Mr. Earl. We need more room, and the industries need more room — the industries that are located there now. They have badly outgrown the facilities that they have, or they have really outgrown them to a great extent. Mr. Marble. You are not behind in your work, are you ? Mr. Earl. No, sir. Mr. Marble. You are keeping up? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Who owns your road; is it owned b^ other railroads? Mr. Earl. I could not say who owns the road ; it is not owned by other railroads. Mr. Marble. It is a corporation, with individual stockholders, is it? Mr. Earl. Yes, sir. W. M. Stickney, called and sworn as a witness and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. What is your business? Mr. Stickney. I am in the grain business. Mr. Marble. You are a grain commission merchant? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. With the firm of Lowell, Hoit & Co. ? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are especially conversant with shipping con- ditions throughout the State of Iowa ? Mr. Stickney. Quite well; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You have traveled in that State considerably in the last year or two ? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Your grain business comes largely from that State? 416 CAB SHOBTAOE. Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You are especially familiar with the shipping con- ditions which prevail as to farmers' elevators and the independent shippers of grain ? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Grain received by your firm is largely from the inde- pendent elevators? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you recently, in view of this investigation, addressed a circular letter to your correspondents in the State of Iowa, did you not? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir; and in Illinois. Mr. Marble. How many of those letters did you send out? Mr. Stickney. We sent out about 175 of them. Mr. Marble. And this is a copy [referring to a paper produced by the witness] ? (The same is hereto attached and marked " Exhibit No. 1 to Mr. Stickney 's testimony.") Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir; that is a copy of the blank questions? Mr. Marble. This is the form that you sent out ? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir; that is the form. Mr. Marble. Does the Commission desire to hear these questions ? Commissioner Lane. You might read the questions; yes. Mr. Marble (reading) : " Name of firm ? " Where located ? " Are you regularly engaged in the grain business ? " Have you had any difficulty in obtaining cars in which to ship grain during the last twelve months ? " Did you make every effort possible during the time mentioned to secure the cars ordered ? " What do you consider has been the jfinancial loss to your company during the last twelve months on account of the railroad company not furnishing, within a reasonable time after ordering, an ordinary number of cars in which to ship grain ? " What do you consider would have been the financial gain to the farmers in your community during the last twelve months had they not been prevented by scarcity of cars from marketing their grain when they desired to sell? " Have conditions been practically the same at other stations in Iowa where you are acquainted? " How much money have you lost during the last twelve months on account of grain heating in transit or otherwise deteriorating and through changes in the market because of the unreasonable delay of cars in transit? " Are you not compelled to load many old worn-out cars that are practically unfit for service, in order to get any grain at all to market at certain seasons of the year? " Do you think conditions in regard to the car situation will be any better this winter than last winter ? " Are you in favor of State and national reciprocal demurrage laws?" Mr. Marble. How many replies to this circular have you received ? Mr. Stickney. I have about 150 to 175. I do not remember. CAB SHOBTAOB. 417 Mr. Marble. And these are the replies [referring to papers pro- duced by the witness] ? Mr. Stickney. Yes, sir. (The same are attached hereto and marked " Exhibit No. 2 to Mr. Stickney 's testimony.") Mr. Marble. Now, without stopping to read these letters, will you state their general tenor — state what you conclude to be the general answer to all these questions, judging by these 175 replies? Mr. Stickney. Well, if I remember rightly — I looked over them hastily — there were about 35 of these that replied, or perhaps 40, that were located at junction points, who said that the loss on ac- count of not being supplied with the ordinary amount of equip- ment in which to ship grain was small. The balance of them, some- thing like 100 in number, or more, placed their loss at from $iiOO to $10,000; a number of them at $5,000, and a good many of them at $3,000, and a good many of them at $1,000. Jiist what the percent- al was I do not know. I looked over them very hastily, as they did not come in till yesterday, or the day before. A very large num- ber of them have lost money on account of grain heating in transit and bein^ a very long time on the road. Commissioner Harlan. Just what is that — ^grain heating in transit — what causes it; do you know? Mr. Stickney. Well, you take it at this time of the year — and corn is a perishable commodity, almost as much so as fruit, you might say. ^^^len you take a car of grain, and ship it from central Iowa, or a car of corn at this time of the year, and let it be on the road ten or fifteen or twenty or twenty-five days, it is very likely to heat in transit. Commissioner Harlan. Well, is it affected by the moisture of the atmosphere, or is it just the natural tendency of the corn? Mr. Stickney. It is the natural tendency of the corn at this time of the year after being shut up so long in a box car. Commissioner Harlan. Would it do the same thing in an elevator? Mr. Stickney. Yes; to a great extent it would; it would do the same thing in an elevator. Commissioner Harlan. Is it a sort of process of fermentation? Mr. Stickney. Well, no; I do not know as it is that. Of course, oats have a sweat to go through, you know that, and you have to deal with it, and after you get them into a bin they have to go through that sweat and always come out better on that account. A car of oats will very often heat in transit, but if thev are left in the car until they are through the sweat it does not do tliem very much harm ; but you start corn either in an elevator or in a car to heating, and it is almost impossible to ever cool it. Commissioner Harlan. It destroys the value completely? Mr. Stickney. Oh, no; but to a great extent — from 4 to 15 cents a bushel. I think Mr. Marble has a statement there, which I pre- pared last winter when we had the reciprocal demurrage bill before the legislature in Iowa. At that time, for 300 cars of corn ship|>ed in January last to reach destination here, I prepared a statement for the committee. I handed the statement to Mr. Marble this morn- ing. It is the same statement that I prepared at that time. Mr. Marble. This is the statement, but I am afraid you will not S. Doc. 333, 5»-2 21 418 CAR SHORTAGE. impress the Commission very much with it. They have been get- ting statements from the Northwest that are so much worse that this looks mild. Mr. Stickney. Well, no; perhaps it may not impress them very much, but from this statement you will find that a great many of the cars arrived here — that is quite a number of them — in four, five and six days. Mr. Marble. Coming what distance? Mr. Stickney. About 300 miles, from central Iowa, which is very good time indeed. Nobody could complain of that. It seems to me that a car of grain should come in six days at least from cen- tral Iowa, when they bring a great many of them in two days; but you will find in this statement that there are several cars that it took twenty-seven days to bring. There are others that it took twenty- two days, and others twenty. Mr. Marble. What percentage of those cars took over ten days? Mr. Stickney. Well, I should think over half of them at least were over ten days. Mr. Marble. And that is too long ? Mr. Stickney. Well, that is too long certainly; there can be no question about that. Mr. Marble. Have you examined the answers to your question on the reciprocal demurrage proposition? Mr. Stickney. I glanced at them. Mr. Marble. You have looked at several of them, and I find as I look at them now, that the writers were not content with saying " yes," but they put it in such words as " unequivocally, yes." Mr. Stickney. The grain shippers of this country are unanimously in favor of a reciprocal demurrage law of some kind, and I guess all the shippers are in the same way of thinking. Mr. Marble. Not in the hope that it will be the means of creating an income, but in the hope that it will be the means of getting trans- portation facilities? Mr, Stickney. Not at all as an income, but with the hope of get- ting facilities. There are a number of letters there, Mr. Marble, which state that the companies have lost five thousand dollars in the last twelve months and it is not just the bare statement. * You will find letters there in connection with the statement, showing that they lost it, and how they lost it, and where the money went. Mr. Marble. Here is a letter received from Mr. Messerole. Mr. Messerole is secretary of the Farmers and Grain Dealers' Association of Iowa, is he not ? Mr. Stickney. Yes. Mr. Marble. In reference to these grain dealers, he holds a position corresponding to that held by Mr. Wells to the regular grain dealers ? Mr. Stickney. Yes. Mr. Marble. And he is in touch with the conditions at a great many points? Mr. Stickney. Yes ; he is. Mr. Marble. He says : I have your favor of the 13th instant, relative to the condition of car service at our station and others in Iowa. Will say that we are not troubled much about obtaining cars, such as they are. Many of the cars set In for us to load are only fit for the coal service or the scrap pile. We are located at a junction point and it is therefore competitive. Thjg CAR SHORTAGE. 419 would be no bad sample of the conditions in Iowa, which are, and have always been, bad for fifteen years. Heretofore the railroads have told the shipi»ers that tliey could take care of the grain, except in cases of extraordinary movement. Let us see how they have done so. Iowa had this year just a nuxlerate crop. It Is hardly up to the average. From the time its crop of oats was harvested there began a very modenite and steady movement. Weather conditions were ideal for railroads to work, and yet in ten days time from tlie time the movement began the sliip|>er8 began to be tied up for want of cars, and this condition has continued up to the present time, with the exception that now that as the move- ment is t>e<-oniing greater. It is gn)wlng worse. An appeal to the conmilssn)ner8 of the State results In the astonishing reply that the railroads are doing the best they can. The railroads themselves make no denial of the fact of the shortage, but say that they arc doing their best. Investigations that I have made, in cimnection with my duties as secretary of the Farmers and Grain Dealers' Association, disclosed the fact that the rail- mads discriminate in favor of comi>etltive jwints constantly. As I have said before, we seldom have any trouble alK)ut cars, but that Is owing to the fact that we are a comi>etlng point,, and we have more trouble about our grain Injing delayed in transit, as all the shippers will tell you. I am of the opinion that Federal laws in connection with State laws will be the only means of relieving the situation. No one at all ix)stetl In these matters will say that the transi)ortatlon cast winter I learned of many instan<-es where grain a<-tually burntKl up In the elevators while waiting for cars to move It. An<»ther very liii])iirtant tiling In crs at the sain«' phu-e sh<»uid l>e supplliHi with as nearly as possible the same proportion of cars as they use when there Is no shortage. If that is not done you can readily see that the carriers are able to force grain buyers to pool receipts. Mr. Marble. Generally speaking, that i.s the substance of the.se letters — that the writers have great difficulty in getting cars, and that if they do get the cars they are not fit for the loading of grain, and that they are not getting good service and have suffered losses, and they are all in favor of reciprocal demurrage? Mr. Stickney. Yes; that is the substance of them. The letters which I sent out are addressed to people who are scattered along the line of every railroad, in nearly every county of the grain belts of Iowa and Illinois, and the replied thereto are representative of the conditions throughout the country. Mr. M.vRBLE. Do these shippers at all concur in reporting condi- tions better at competitive points than at noncompetitive points? Mr. Stickney. Yes; they do. Mr. Marble. Is it your personal observation that conditions at such points are better? Mr. Stickney. Yes ; it is. Mr. M.\rble. Uniformly? Mr. Stickney. Almost. (The above letter from C. G. Massorole, of Gowrie, Iowa, is re- ceived in evidence and marked as an exhibit to Mr. Stickney's te.stimony.) Mr. M.\RBLE. Mr. Stickney 'draws attention to a letter from the Seneca Grain and Lumber Company, at Seneca, 111., under date of Decemln'r 14, which .says, in part: Knowing that the Interstate Commerce Commission Is to give a hearing In your city in the near future, and having many grievances and much financial loss because of the shortage of cars, we request you to present our petition, witb 420 CAS Shortage. the hope that some means may be devised that will Improve the conditions that now exist. We have grain in our elevator on the Big Four which was brought last Seiv tember on which there Is now a loss of at least 8 cents a bushel, because it could Hot be moved to market in proi)er time. Grain in our Stockdale elevator on the ^ock Island road, bought In Augnst and September, remaiued in the elevator for more than two months, because we could not get cars to move it. and caused a great loss. Conditions at each of these two stations have practically put them out of business entirely, as grain can not be bought where there is no assurance of having it moved to market. At Seneca our elevator was filled with grain that was sold to go on the Septenil)cr market in Chicago, hut bivausc of car shortage v^-e had to carry it into October at a loss. Insurance had to be carried on all grain In elevatoi-s, and that has occasioned some loss. The farm- ers tributai^ to our station could not deliver their grain, and were comi)elltHl to hold at least 200,000 busbels of com, which meant a large loss to them, and some of their com is not delivered yet and can not be till room Is made for It iu the elevator by shipment. The new corn is about to move North, and we have ho prospect of relief in sight. We dread the future. (The same is hereto annexed and marked as an exhibit to Mr. Stickney's testimony.) Mr. Marble. Are there any other letters to which you wish to direct attention? Mr. Sticknsy. No; but you might look at the loss which they claim to have sustained. It is only a sample of the entire matter. Mr. Marble. This elevator at Seneca, 111., claims its loss has not been less than $5,000, for three stations. That is the loss to the com- pany. Asked what the financial gain to the fanners would amount to during the last twelve months if they had not been prevented from marketing their grain, their aiiswer is " Not less than ten thousand dollars." Commissioner Harlan. Have you recently been over the terri- tory covered by these letters? Mr. Stickxey. Not all of it; but I have some two or three times within the last twelve months. Commissioner Harlan. In the last three months have you been over any portion of this territory? Mr. Stickney. Yes; probably half of it, or perhaps two-thirds. We are in daily communication with practically two hundred ship- pers in Illinois and in Iowa. I myself am in daily communication with them. Commissioner Harlan. Of course, then, you have an opportunity to observe some of these conditions? Mr. Stickney. Yes; we know the conditions at practically every station. Commissioner Harlan. And you say that these letters fairly rep- resent the conditions at the respective stations from which they come? Mr. Stickney. Yes; I consider that they do; and I can say that the companies and the men who have signed these statements and have written these letters are personally known to me. I am person- ally acquainted with them, and I consider them very reliable, and I consider them to be men who are w holly responsible business men. Those are the authors of these letters which are attached to very nearly every one of these statements. The letters are really directed to the Commission. Of course they were written to our firm, but with the understanding that they were to be delivered to the Commis- sion. They did not direct them to the Conuuission, but they knew CAB SnORTAGB. 421 (hat you were to be here, and the letters were written really to vou, and should have l)een addressed to you instead of to the firm. There is a letter attaclied to practically every statement that was sent in, and some of them are very interesting indeed. I will say further that you can go down there in Illinois to any station to-day, and there is hardly a section where the cars are ob- tained at all, but what the grain men are buying the cars as they come along, and paying money for them in order to get the cars. Commissioner Harlax. Does that mean that the farmer or the elevator man pays the agent something for the cars? Mr. Stickney. No; he pays the brakeman or the conductor. One of the largest grain shippers in Illinois was in our office yesterday, and he made the renuuk that he had practically exhausted the turkey supply of eastern Illinois by buying those birds and pre- senting them to traveling freitjht agents and conductors and brake- men. j»nd such as that. I asked him why he did not pay them money, and stop this buying of turkeys, and he said that he knew it was better to give a turkey to each one of them — that it was l)etter to do that than to give them money. He mentioned one of his stations up above there, and he said that week before last he told them that he would give them $1 a car, and he said that last week. The next week he raised it to $2, and was receiving quite a numlier of cars. Mr. Marble. Paying the money to the railroad employees? Mr, Stickney. Ves; paying the money to the railroad employees, and the practice is general all over the State of Illinois. I can name vou fifty grain dealers that have paid this money, and are paying It, if tlu'V can get cars, practically every day. When this came up here U'fore I mentioned to several of them to come up here and testify in regard to it, but they are very backward about mentioning it or giving their names, or having their names mentioned in con- nection with it, but it is a general practice just the same. Mr. Marble. I will offer this table prepared by Mr. Stickney. D(K»s this show all the shipments of grain from Iowa in January, 190G, to your firm ? Mr. Stickney. That is, every car; yes. Mr. Marble. Is that selected at all ? Mr. Stickney. Not at all, but it happened to be for that month, because it was in February that we presented this bill to the legisla- ture in Des Moines, and the statement was prepared for that month because that was the month before — January. I have not made out any new one: this is the one that was made out then. Sir. Marble. I will offer this without stopping to read it. It shows, as stated by Mr. Stickney, the station from which the car was shipped, the date it was received, and the numln'r of days it was in transit. (Same is received in evidence and marked as an exhibit to Mr. Stickney's testimony.) Commissioner Lane. Put in all of those letters as exhibits. Mr. Marble. Yes; I will do that. There are many details con- tained in the.se letters which shoidd be read. Mr. Stickney. They are all along the same lines. Some of them describe conditions as being a little different. For instance, there is a statement from Palmer, Iowa, which we received yesterday. The gentleman claims that it is a common practice in Iowa to discrim- 422 CAK SHORTAGE. inate in favor of certain stations. He says that at Palmer, ToAva, there are two elevators, one of them owned by the farmers, and just below there is a small town with an elevator, and the elevator at that town is owned by a line company. He says they are able to get all the cars at that town practically that they want, and that conse- quently the grain is going away from Palmer and that vicinity to the other elevator every day. They are unable to get any at Palmer. At this town, in which there is only one elevator owned by a line company, they are able to get all the cars they desire. Commissioner Harlan. Do any of those letters refer to any prac- tice in Iowa, such as you have mentioned ? Mr. Stickney. Of that kind ? Commissioner Harlan. No; of paying for cars? Mr. Stickney. No. Commissioner Harlan. Or in Illinois? Mr. Stickney. No; the man that pays that will not mention it in any letter. He is not telling it to the general run of people. Mr. Marble. For the very evident reason that he would make him- self so unpopular with the people from whom he gets the cars tliat he would not get any at all. Mr. Stickney. Yes; he would be cut off entirely if he did that. He would not be able to get any cars if he gave this matter aw\iy, and told what conductor he paid the money to. He would be shut off entirely. Mr. Marble. Now, it is not at all supposed, Mr. Stickney, that this form of extortion goes into the general offices of the railroad com- panies, or is any part of the railroad policy? Mr. Stickney. Oh, I don't think so. Mr. Marble. That is not even suspected, is it? Mr. Stickney. No ; not at all. Commissioner Harlan. I understood that to be Mr. Stickney's meaning. Mr. Stickney. Of course, if you take this matter up with the gen- eral offices, they will make a great big bluff, as they always do. and want to know the name of the conductor and say that they are going to fire him, and all that; but they know that the practice is going on just the same. Not that they believe in it, or have upheld it in any wa}'^, shape, or manner, but simply that they can not prevent it. They can not get rid of it, and that is all there is to it. Mr. Marble. I will offer these letters for the subsequent examina- tion of the Commission for what they show. I have nothing more to ask, unless there is something that you wish to say in addition. Mr. Stickney. No; I guess there is nothing more with which to take up the time of the Commission. I simply want to emphasize, though, before I leave the stand, that the shipping public (as the Commissioners, of course, know) are in favor or some measure that will compel the railroad companies to furnish them with a fair and reasonable amount of equipment. I believe that the only thing that will bring that about (and so do these shippers believe) is a measure which will penalize the railroad company for failure to furnish this equipment within a reasonable len^h of time after it is ordered ; that that is the only thing that will bring the desired result. That seems to be their contention. CAB SHOBTAOE. 423 Commissioner Harl.an. Well, you heard what Mr. Kruttschnitt said this afternoon ? Afr. Stickxey. I do not think I did. I did hear part of it, but he fpoke very low, and I could not catch all that he said. Commissioner Harlan. Well, he made the ar^iment that it would be unfair to impose a demurrage upon the railroads if they were compelled to let the cars go off tlieir own tracks, because they might deplete their own supply of cars on account of not being able to get the cars back. That, in that way, they would e.xhaust their own sup- ply of cars, and so it would practically penalize them for furnishing facilities for distant business — through business. Mr. Stickney. I think — and I believe that you will agree with me — that when they are penalized for this they will look out for it themselves. They will see that the freight trains are moved and that the cai*s are handled promptly. If there is any occasion for it, they will st'e that there is no congestion, and I believe that they are able to do it and will do it. Commissioner Harlan. Well, suppose that a railroad in Galveston takes freight for Boston and it goes oflf the line of the railroad at Fort Worth or St^ I^ouis and goes to other railroads and they keep the car up in New England. That is done to such an extent that the number of cars they have down in Texas becomes very seriously reduced. Should they have enough cars in Texas to supply the demand of the New England people, who don't provide themselves with a sufficiency of cars? Mr. Stickney. No; I don't think so; but I am of the idea that your investigation will develoj) the fact that nearly all the Western roads have enough foreign c«i-s to amount to a numl)er equal to the number of their own which is upon foreign rails — that is, if it pro- ceeds that far. I think you will find that it averages up pretty well. Commissioner Harlan. Some of them have more than that number. Mr. Stickney, Yes; I suppose that is true of some of the lines, but the average will be about as I say. Commissioner Harlan. I do not think we have found any road yet that has now any more cars than Mr. Stickney. AVell, yes; the Illinois Central. I judge of the Illinois Central from their testimony here this afternoon. Commissioner Harlan. The Pennsylvania Railroad claims that about two-thirds of its cars are ott" its lines, and they claim, too, that these Western roads are very wicked people, and take everthing that they can get hold of, Mr. Stickney. I think they will fix up some such system as one of the gf'ntlemen testified to this afternoon, when he mentioned some sort of a clearing house, or some arrangement by which the cars of all roads will be fairly and equitably distributed. I think they will be hurried along to that very much if they are penalized to a certain ex- tent. I do not mean to suggest anything unfair or unjust. (The witness was excusedr) J. E. Defebauoh, called as a witness and being duly sworn, was ex- amined and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. You reside in the city of Chicago? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir. 424 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. And you nre editor of the American Lumberman? Mr. Defebauoh. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is a trade paper published for the benefit of the lumber interests of the entire United States, is it not? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Your subscribers number several thousand manufac- turers of lumber and dealers in lumber ? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you recently been making an investigation into shipping conditions as the lumbermen find them? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. By personal interviews? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And also by correspondence ? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. And you have some of that correspondence with you ? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. First, I will ask you to state generally what the ship- ping conditions are, so far as the furnishing of transportation facil- ities to lumber manufacturers is concerned? Mr. Defebaugh. Well, they are very much harassed because of their inability to secure cars, from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Mr. Marble. The conditions are about the same in all sections? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes, sir; from Maine to Florida, Florida to Texas, and all along the Pacific coast. Mr. Marble. Have you any special point to direct attention to in reference to that matter? Mr. Defebaugh. I was invited to come here this morning, and hence last evening I dictated a brief statement, predicated on about 250 letters and 200 telegrams, which I have received, all within ten days, bearing on this subject, and I selected a few of those letters — important extracts from them — bearing on the situation, which I have copied off and assorted. Mr. Marble. This statement, then, would be a summing up of all that correspondence? Mr. Defebaugh. That would cover it generally. Commissioner Lane. Well, read the statement. Mr. Defebaugh. I will have to be somewhat personal in the man- ner in which I give it, because it is, in a measure, connected with the reciprocal demurrage proposition chiefly, in which I am very much interested. The statement is as follows : My time has been verj-^ limited since invited by the representatives of the Commission to appear here to-day, to testify of my own knowl- edge and on information which has come into my possession regard- ing the car shortage and matters pertaining thereto. As editor of the American Lumberman, I am closely in touch with the lumber business and intimately acquainted with many engaged in it in all parts of the country. I have had many complaints this year, and especially during the last three months, of inability to move lumber, and I recently consulted a number of lumbermen as to wliether any- thing could be done at this time to focus sentiment looking toward legislation which might, in the future at least, remedy existing evils. After this conference I sent telegrams to 150 luml)ermen represent- ing the manufacturing, wholesaling, and retailing departments of the CAR SHORTAGE. 425 business, referring to tho r^vnnvn: cir sliortapo. inrroasing in sevority year by year until it threatens the prosperity of the country. I also referred to the fact that in this matter the customers of the rail- roads have inadequate remedy for inconvenience and damage; that a national denuirrage law which should imi)ose penalties u^x)n the railroads as well as their customers for unreasonable delay m han- dling cars gave promise of being an equitable means of relief, and suggesting a national conference, to be called for the first week of January, and asking for wire responses, giving the opinions of the recipients of the inquiry. Hy noon of the following day I had heard from over 100 of the leading representatives of the lumber trade, situated in thirty States, nearly all of whom were in favor of such a convention. Consequently, under date of December 13, I issued a call, as an unofficial representative of the lumber trade, which call was addressed " to carload shipwrs under commodity rates and to receivei*s of freight so shipped, and especially to associations whose members are of these classes," asking them to meet in a "national reciprocal car demurrage convention^' in Chicago on Friday, Januarv 4, 1907, to discuss the present car-service situation, its causes and remedies, and. if its memlx^rs should so decide, to devise and arrange for pres- entation to Congress an amendment to the interstate-connnerce law, which should provide for just and reasonable reciprocal demurrage. A copy of the call is attached hereto. At the same time I invited comments from the trade, and brought the matter to the attention of coal, grain, and other important shipping interests. Since that time I have received hundreds of messages and letters on this subject; many of them are mere indorsements of the general proposition, many give statements as to the situation in various sec- tions in general terms, while others go into detail, and some suggest various phases of the matter that should be considered in arriving at a solution of the serious problem that confronts us. Some of these letters I have had copied in order to show the seriousness of the present situation, the support that has already been given this move- ment, and the various phases pointed out. Every customer of the railroads, whether he be a shipper or receiver of freight, in large amounts or small, is entitled to consideration, but the luml>er industry is an especial sufferer as a result of ])resent con- ditions. That the luml)er industry produces in itself a problem of magnitude is shown by the estimate that the product of 11)05. on a conservative basis, required for its movement approxinuitely 2,380,000 cars. Practically the entire output of the sawmills of the United States is loaded on cars for shipment in one stage or other of its j)rog- ress from mill to consumer, the onses in which the movement is en- tirely by water or directly from mill to consumer by wagon probably lieing compensated for by the double use of cars when a water route intervenes between two rail routes, as is often the case on the great lakes and sometimes on the principal rivers of the country. Estimating the average rate at '20 cents a hundred pounds and the av<'rage weight of luinl)er at 2,500 pounds to the thousand feet, the railroads have a revenue from this traffic of $174,975,000 — a little less than they derive from the transportation of corn, but more than double their earnings from any other product of the soil. Lumber is an important commodity not only in respect to its volume, as esti- 426 CAR SHORTAGE. mated by weight, but from the fact that it is a raw material in prac- tically every industry. If it is not used in construction it is used in crating and packing. It employs a capital of over $700,000,000 and employs about 450,000 men in various capacities, with probably as many more concerned in industries which may be considered branches or are directly dependent upon the lumber industry. This great business is peculiarly situated in respect to the trans- portation systems of the country. The greater portion of the traffic which it furnishes is interstate. It originates largely at isolated local points with a distribution, in the main, not to centers of trade, but almost directly to consumers, whether located in the great cities, in the small cities and country towns, or on the farms. It is a com- modity which the railroads consider " dead freight," and is not con- sidered subject to damage by delay in transit, although, as a matter of fact, the loss occasioned to the lumber trade by inadequate car service, causing deterioration of the value of lumber awaiting ship- ment or in transit, reaches into the millions of dollars. But, looking at this commodity as they do, the railroads give preference to perish- able commodities — in many cases rightly enough — and in the second place to commodities like grain and cotton, which have definite sea- sons for their movement ; although lumbermen claim that it would, in the long run, be better for the railroads, for grain men, and for cotton growers, if the marketing of those great products of the soil were forced to be distributed over a greater period of time and thus interfere less with an all the year round business like lumber. Lumbermen have become accustomed in the north to a car shortage during the grain shipping season and in the south during the season for marketing cotton. This shortage recurs annually, but it hak be- come more acute of recent years until now all through the year lum- ber has suffered from the inability or unwillingness of the railroads to move it promptly, while during the last few months the situation has amounted to a partial embargo, with some sections almost abso- lutely precluded from doing business. The most acute difficulty is in the far west, but the southern situation is almost as bad. I am not exaggerating when I say that there are hundreds of sub- stantial concerns of fair financial strength that are, if the present condition continues, in danger of bankruptcy. Many of them, besides their heavy cash investments, have purchased timber on which they have to make regular payments. Their operating expenses are large, and, with their income cut in two, it is only by the grace of their creditors and the generous assistance of the banks that they are able to continue, and there is a limit to such grace and to such assistance. I^et me say further in this connection, as is pointed out in some of the letters I lay before you, that it is well-nigh impossible to shut down a sawmill entirely or to curtail the product to a sufficient extent to compensate for such a shortage of shipping ability as now exists. Most mills are located away from the centers of population; they are built in the woods, so to speak, and around them are built towns com- posed of people whose livelihood is derived almost exclusively from them. It is not an easy matter to collect a satisfactory mill crew in such situations, and to shut down the mills means a scattering of the crew and the demoralization of the business for a considerable period, to say nothing of the hardship imposed upon the operatives. CAR SHOBTAOB. 427 But the lack of cars in which to make shipments is only the begin- nin«r of trouble. Mills located at or near large terminal points do not all suffer severely from this cause, but all are sufferers from the ridiculously slow movement of lumber, which seems to be sidetracked for ever}' other class of freight. I have not had time to compile in tabular form the reports I have received, but the cases are innumera- ble where lumU'r shipments are ten times as long in transit as would l>e the case under reasonably steady movement. Some cases are ex- treme, where CHI'S . require months to move 100 or '200 miles; but from all that I can learn the average movement of lumber-laden cjire will not e.xceed, at the present rate, 20 miles a day, and to this are added the long delays in waiting for cai*s. I have spoken so far from the shipper's standpoint, but the situa- tion with the receiver is as serious. Retail dealers in lumber incur penalties for nonfultiUment of contracts, consumei-s' operations are delayed, and factories are shut down l)ecause of the ncmreceipt of luml>er ordered in time ample under ordinary fall and winter condi- tions. The situation from the standpoint of the consignee is ap- palling. P>om the evidence in hand it seems that it would be fairly correct to say there is no car shortage. There is a woeful scarcity of availa- ble empties, but it is coming to 1h» the U'lief of the shipi)ing public that the difficulty lies farther back than the mere matter or numl)er of cars. The difficulty seems to lie in the misuse of cars by the railroads themselves. From all the evidence that has come to hand during the past year, including the snjall amounts collected for demurrage by the rail- roads, 1 conclude that the detention of cjirs by lumber shippei*s or receivers is so snuill as to be a negligible quantity, and that the same is true in most other lines of trade. There is evidence, however, that in some industries, particularly those which have close affiliation with the railroads, cars are, by the c(msent and with the connivance of the railroads, used for storage to a serious extent; but, after all, the chief difficulty seems to be in the movement of cars from point of origin to destination. I believe your honorable body has reported that the average movement of cars is less than 20 mifes a day. I assume that that includes empties as well as loaded cars, and detentions for load- ing and unloading. Assuming that one-half the time is devoted to loading and uidoading, then the movement of loaded cars would be less than 40 miles a day, whereas under any reasonable system of transportation the movement should be from 150 to 2r)0 miles a day. A doubling of the average daily mileage per day per car would be equivalent to the doubling of the car equipment. The business community is placing the fault with the railroad companies because, first, of lack of motive power; and, second, because of inadequate passing tracks and terminals. Accompanying this and a cause for it is a breakdown of management. Many of the communi- cations lay the cause to the ton-mile theory, which, while it has tended to economy in one direction — in the actual cost of moving traffic — has resulted in loss in other directicms, but chiefly in a lessened fluiditv of movement, so that the time required to move traffic is two or three times as long as it was formerly. This, some of my correspondents believe, is due to the growing influence of the financial departments 428 CAR SHORTAGE. of the railroads in their management at the sacrifice of the operating influence — that is to say, raih'oad men, as such, are dwarfed in com- parison with the financial aspects of the railroad problem. One of my correspondents strongly arraigns the railroads for lack of ordinary foresight. The radroads are inclined to consider the present volume of business offered them as extraordinary. It is undoubtedly larger than ever before, but it should not be considered extraordinary, but only what was to be expected as the result of years of growth of population, of business enterprise, and of develop- ment of the country. Railroad management has failed to keep pace with the management of private enterprises. The industries had faith in the country and enlarged their producing capacity. The railroads showed less faith and foresight and failed to provide facili- ties to move the business which the industries were preparing to fur- nish them. Another phase which bears directly upon the province of the In- terstate Commerce Commission is a growing disposition of the rail- roads, especially those well equipped with rolling stock, not to permit their cars to go off their own lines. This seems to be due to unequal equipment and lack of adequate provision for return of cars. In this direction it is suggested that penalties for detention of cars should be much larger thjin the}' are, and perhaps should equal or exceed the earning power of cars. There are many delicate questions involved in this matter; but the wisdom of the railroads and of the Interstate Commerce Commission should be sufficient to solve them. The car-service charges, as between the roads, should be greatly raised or provision should ))e made by which cars should be returned as fast as cars are received in the exchange between the roads. This same principle might be applied to reciprocal demurrage, if such a measure should become law by act of Congress or by ruling of your honorable body. The suggestions to this end are various. Some insist that after a demurrage period of $1 a day per car the charge might be raised as high as $5 a day per car, which would exceed the earning capacity of the car in almost any kind of traffic. Apply this to the railroads and to their customers alike and there would be an incentive to the most rapid movement possible of equipment of all kinds for the convenience of general transportation. Further than the above, I refer you to the letters which I have received, some of which t may read, and copies of which I may leave with you as part of the record in this hearing. Mr. Marble. And this [referring to another paper] is a call for a National Reciprocal Demurrage Convention that you issued? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes; I have issued a call for that and used the names of 250 lumbermen in reference to that matter. Commissioner Lane. For what date? Mr. Defebaugh. January 4, next. Commissioner Lane. Where? Mr. Defebaugh. Chicago. Mr. Marble. The call provides for the consideration of the propo- sition that, inasmuch as shippers and receivers pay demurrage, failure by a railroad company to place cars for loading within a reasonable fixed time should subject such railroad to a like charge or penalty, and also that in case of failure to deliver a car at desti- CAB SHORTAGE. 429 nation within a reasonable time the railroad collectings the freifrht cliiirf^p shall pay the consignee such an amount per day of delay as the Interstate Commenre Commission shall deem just. Mr, Defebaugh. There is no desire at all on the part of anyone interested in this proceeding, or in this proposed meeting, to do any- thing extreme, but the object is to take such other action, or recom- mend such other measures, as the memliers of the Counnission shall, in their assembled wisdom, deem equitable and wise. Mr. Marble. And you do not feel connnitted to the reciprocal cVmurrage proposition? Mi. Dekebaioh. Not 5 per cent of the people I have heard from are <>j)posed to it, while 95 per cent are strongfly in favor of it. Mr. Marble. Does that include men of large business interests? Mr. Defebaugh. That includes 250 answers, and two-thirds of them are associations representing anywhere from 50 to 2,000 mem- bers, in addition to the individual letters, and hence it represents the rentiment of perhaps 25.000 or 30,000 lumber firms in the United States, both large and small. Commissioner Harlan. Do vou think that such a meastire of itself would be sufficient? I have in mind such a case as this: Suppose you are near the border line of a State, or suppose you were near a •orminus of a road, and you wished to send a carload of lumber be- yoiul the terminus of that road to some distant point on the line of another road. Now, as I understand it, under the principle of recin- iHH'al demurrage it would put a ix>nalty on the initial carrier, would it not ? Mr. Defebaugh. Yes; but they have joint arrangements for inter- state traffic. Commissioner Harlan. It would put a |:)enalty on the initial car- rier. Say that you demand a car for a shipment of a load of lum- l>er, and under the penalty of such a law the initial carrier would have to furnish that car. It would have to send it off its own rails onto the rails of the connecting carrier. Now, those shipments might .ank. How much did you agree to takef 432 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Hostler. We agreed to take 2,500 tons per month. They agreed to give me as much additional as they could get cars to load in. During the month of July they gave me 000 tons above my con- tract. The 1st of August they fell down for want of cars. The 1st of September they could not take any orders. Commissioner Lane. AMiere are the mines that are closed down? Mr. Hostler. Of course, they have not all been closed down, except at times waiting for their percentage of cars. During the month of September I spent ten days down there visiting the different mines along the Chesapeake and Ohio and along on the Kanawha and Michigan, and also on the Norfolk and Western. I was down there two weeks in November trying to get coal forwarded ; to get the other mines to ship coal. Some of them have not shipped me a single car, and I have got a stack of correspondence stating that the reason is lack of cars. Commissioner Lane. Correspondence with the mines? Mr. Hostler. With the mines ; yes, sir. Commissioner Lane. Not with the railroad (Companies? Mr. Hostler. It is lack of cars at the mine. Now, these very mines — you see the mines are located on the main line of the Chesa- peake and Ohio and are also located on the river. Those mines can load by both rail and water. When they have not got railroad cars they load coal into their own cars and dump it into their own barges. These other mines located up on the branches where they don't have access to the river, they don't run over two days a week, and the miners leave them and go down and work for the river mines, be- cause they have more steady work. The Winifred Coal Company's annual production is 240,000 tohs, and if they had any assurance of getting cars they would increase it to 300,000 tons. There is lots of demand for that coal here, and orders we could take every year, but we can not get the cars and can not take them. I had the annual contract for twelve consecutive years with the Pullman Company for that coal. They have to get coal from other mines now, because we need the coal for our domestic trade. I have got cars shipped in one case that have been out since October 25 between Cincinnati and here. We have located them down here at Sheff, Ind. I have got one of those files of correspondence show- ing our efforts to trace it, and I have got other cars. I compiled a statement this afternoon, taking the shipments of three different mines. The average distance from the Kanawha district to Chicago is 530 miles. Here is one mine where they shipped us 13 cars and the average time in transit was eleven days, just a little fraction under eleven days. The shortest or quickest time was eight days, and the longest time was sixteen days. That was an average of 48 miles per day. In former years we used to get the coal here in four days, but now since they have doubled the capacity of the cars they have more than doubled the running time. They claim it is not economical to run coal trains fast, and they just lug those cars along just as slow as they can, just to keep them moving. Now. notice the difference. Here is another mine with practically 10 miles shorter hauJ, 10 miles nearer to Chicago, and it shipped me 23 cars, and the average running time was twelve days. The fastest CAR 8H0BTAGB. 433 time was six days and the slowest twenty-six days. Now, take another matter; on the opposite side of the river, ri»ht opposite this first mine, and on another road — just on the opposite side of the river — they had to come via a diflFerent road, and they shipped me 22 cars prac- tically the same day, and the average running time was ten days. The quickest time was seven days and the longest time was sixteen days. That was an average of 53 miles per day. That second state- ment was an average of 44 and the first 48. Commissioner Lane. AVhen you ship coal from here out to Iowa and Nebraska points, what sort of time do they make with that ? Mr. Hostler. Once we ^t it on the western lines, and get it started^ they make pretty good time. They run it clear to the Mississippi River before it is ever stopped. I intended — I understood that this hearing was to be held on »Tanuar\' 20, and I intended to compile a list of cars, which I will do soon after the first of the year, showing the time they arrive in Chicago, the date I reconsign them to the out- bound road, and the amount of time over the road. I will look up the time from the railroads showing that. Commissioner Lane. What do you think of the reconsignment privilege? Mr. Hostler. It is necessary on long hauls for the simple rea- son Commissioner Lane. It is abused, is it not? Mr. Hostler. No ; not particularly so. Once in a while we have paid (lomurrage when a slump comes on coal. This privilege comes to be necessary for the simple reason that we can not get cars at the mines at the proper time so that they can fill their orders. Just to show you how this reconsignment acts I would like to say that we had a customer here at South Chicago, and he was located on the Rock Island Road. He ordered a car of this West Virginia coal of a size that we did not handle here — large egg. He used it for a special purpose. We shipped him a car direct from the mines, and the car was in transit sixty days. In the meantime he ran out of coal, and got a car of coal off the Baltimore and Ohio. AVhen this car got in here he refused it, as he had no room for it. The car came over the Big Four and the Illinois Central Road, and that was switched over to the Rock Island. The Rock Island charged him for doing that — they charged him $18 demurrage, and as the car had gone over to the Rock Island without collecting freight charges from the consignee the consignee was not out anything but the eastern line was out their freight charges. The eastern line says to us: " If you will take that car and dispose of it, we will cut the demurrage otf for you." So we had to dispose of that car on the Rock Island system in order to avoid switching charges which would eat up the value of the coal. We sold it out on the Rock Island system, and it took the local rate from Chicago. The agent there at South Chicago — the agent of the Rock IslancI— added on $18. AVhen the switching bill came back we filed a claim for the refund of the $18. We had sold the car of coal at a loss of about $18. The Big Four says: "We did not collect any demurrage, and we can not refund anything." Mr. Sanford says: '• I can not authorize the Rock Island to refund that, because there S. Doc. 333, 59-2 28 434 CAB SHORTAGE. was no delay on the Rock Island. The Illinois Central had it. and they delivered it to the Kock Island the next day." We have never been able to get Sanford to authorize the refund of that $18, Ixicause he says the Rock Island is entitled to it, and the Big Four says: " We did not collect any demurrage." Commissioner Lane. Mr. Daley says you ought to sue them. Mr. Hostler. Yes; we commenced suit in a justice court. They never allow them to get into a court of record. You mentioned about this 40 cents a ton. I will cite a case showing how it acts. They don't charge that reconsigning charge now, but they are going to adopt a reconsigning charge after the first of the year. We had a car of soft coal coming over the Michigan Central. Right on the opposite side of the crossing at One hundred and sixteenth street is a coal yard located on the Illinois Central right of way. We had a car of coal come in on the Illinois Central, and we sold it to this dealer, and the Illinois Central rendered a switching bill for $16 for switching that car leas than 300 feet. The customer paid it and charged it back to us. We filed a claim before the State board here of excessive switching charge. They came into court and they said it was interstate business; not only that, but they cut me off because I was president of a mining company that was further down on their line. They got after me on that, and I had to withdraw my com- plaint before the State board. They got after the dealer down there liecause he had no lease; he wanted his lease renewed for the coming year, and the dealer rushed to me very quickly with a refund of the il6. There they had us. Some twenty years ago I had charge of all the switching done in the Illinois Central yard. At that time the rule was $2 per car, under 14 miles. When the St. Paul built this division along Bloomingdale road there were two or three industries located upon that road, and they made a switching charge over there of $5 per car. The North- w'estern retaliated and made a switching charge of $2.50 per car. The Pan Handle at that time would never switch for other roads. Now they have got it so that they accept switching from other roads, but put the charge so high as to make it prohibitory. Commissioner Lane. Is that the customary charge — 40 cents? Mr. Hostler. It is now. Commissioner Lane. How long has it been such? Mr. Hostler. A little over a year ago. but the State commission adopted a rule that under 3 miles it should be not to exceed $3, and then they made another charge. They had a hearing day before yes- terday before the State commission. Commissioner Lane. Has anybody complained of that switching charge upon soft coal? Mr. Hostler. They have not as yet, and the reason is that the man who has his yard located on the Illinois Central right of way he knows enough now not to buy coal on other roads. He won't buy any coming in over the Michigan Central. I might have coal on the Michigan Central, but I can not send it over to this fellow's yard without losing a great deal more. Do you see how it works? Now, here I got a letter that I sent to the editor of the Black Dia- mond, as follows: CAB 8H0BTA0E. 435 H06TLEB CoAt AND Coke Company. Chicago, December 20, 1906. E. S. Ketchum. Editor Black Diamond, Chicaffo, III. Dear Sib: Your favor of rHH-emlier 17th at hand and notwl. We need National and State reciprocal deniiirniKO laws. Wlien the railroad <*onip»nle8 are reciuired to >jive coal the attention that its iin|>ortance as a ooninietween railroads; no restrictions on car eguipnient. The railroads oin double and treble their i)er diem charge against each other, which will insure pmtiipt return of cars. Seox cars are wanted, we don't want steel hopi)er, tide-water cars furnished ; pemilty, $1 per car per day for any failure or «ielay in furnishing cars. Third. Cars moved promptly inside of twenty-four hours after loaded; pen- alty. $1 i)er car |)er day. Fourth. Cars kept moving toward destination not less than 100 miles each twenty-four hours; i)enalty. $1 i>er car per day. When the alwve InM-omcs a law and the rule and practice* of every railway company, then, and not until then, will we have no trouble regarding car shortages or delays in shipments. It will do away with !>."» i»er cvnt of the car denuirrage chargessible to make the Nati«»nal Shipi)er8' Convention, to 1k» held in Chicago January 4. a su up to date for 807 roads, or 308 roads, and I think they show a ton mileage of 213,H'21>,085,000 as against 18(5,000,000,000 for the total of 1905. Commissioner Lane. Two hundred and thirteen billion eight hun- dred and twenty-nine million six hundred and eighty-five tliousand for 1906? Mr. Thompson. Two hundred and thirteen billion eight hundred jind twenty-nine million six hundred and eighty-five thousand. Commissioner Lane. Covering the same number of roads? Mr. Thompson. No; but covering 94 per cent of the roads as against the final report for 1905. The roads that are not included, the percentage would not be as great, and I estimate beyond that that perhaps the total figures will be 220,829,685,000. You will understand the bearing of that when you subtract one from the other, and find the enormous increase that came in the fiscal year 1906, and that that is on top of the remarkable increase growing up to that. Now, for the whole period from 1900, the increase is from 141,599,157,279 to this 220,829,685,000, but you see the greatest increase came right last year. The roads all over the country have endeavored to keep pace with this increase and get ready for it befoi'e (he increase came. It is indicative of the general business of the entire United States. Since I was subpoenaed here I tried to get — one of the Commissioners yesterday was asking for some of these figures, and if you will pennit me I will give them to you, as to the equipment of freight cars and engines. Taking the freight cars first, I have eleven roads, and if you care to have me, I will give you the jiames of the roads. Commissioner Lane. Perhaps you can file that memorandum? Mr. Thompson. I won't attempt to give the figures, only just the ■-Mmmaries. I have got a number of roads here, and thev include two or three of the principal ones in our General Managers'^ Associa- tion of Chicago. The number of freight cars in 1900 was three hundred and thirty- one odd thousand, and in 1906 it was four hundred and thirty-two odd thousand, showing an increase in the number of 30 per cent. Now^, as to the capacity of those cars, which is the principal thing, and these capacities are given in million pounds of capacity — 18,596 in 1900 as against 28,599 in 1906. Commissioner Lane. Twenty-eight thousand million? Mr. Thompson. Twenty-eight thousand million — twenty-eight thousand five hundred and ninety-nine million. Commissioner Lane. What percentage of increase is that? Mr. Thompson. The percentage of increased capacity is 53.8 as against 35 in the number. 438 CAB SHORTAGE. Commissioner Lane. Do you know what the increase in traffic was during those years? Mr. Thompson. The increase in traffic is practically what I gave you. There is one thing more that I want to say in regard to some of these roads, that the statistics given are not for the full period. The Pennsylvania road is only for from 1001 to 1905. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Thompson, could you conveniently put this in typewriting and file it ? Mr. Thompson. I will have this put in typewriting ajid put it in this afternoon. Commissioner Harlan. Or forward it to us at Washington. Mr. Thompson. To whom shall I send it? Commissioner Harlan. To the Interstate Commerce Commission, to Mr. Lane, at Washington. Mr. THo>iPSt)N. The increase in tractive power is very interesting and very si^iificant. The tractive power increased in these years Commissioner Hari^\n. Covering the same number of roads? Mr. Thompson. Covering the same nimiber of roads. It increased 90 per cent, against an increase in the number of 47.8 per cent. When you get the memorandum you will see that these figures do not cover the Avhole period. For instance, the figures in reference to the Pennsylvania only cover the time from 1900 to 1905, and of the Northwestern from 1902 to 1906. I have endeavored in that to reduce the capacity of the engine in every case to the tractive power, and wherever I have had to make the calculation myself I have seen that the increase was less than that as given by the ton weight, some of the roads just keepiri^ the weight of their engines and not the tractive power. Mr. Marble. Now, Mr. Thomjjson, these figures, where did you get them, as to the increase in tonnage? Mr. Thompson. In tonnage, from the reports from all the roads direct. They are sent to me after the return is made to the Interstate Conmierce Commission. Mr. Marble. I want to ask you if you at all suspect that those are simply paper records and do not truly state the conditions, and I will give you a word of explanation. It is sometimes charged that the influence upon the stock market of the reports of great tonnage, and great tonnage per train mile, is such (this has been the charge) that from the general managers down to the division superintendents there is a constant striving to produce those figures, and that the paper figures are considered of more value than the practical results. Do you at all suspect that that is true? Mr. Thompson. I should hardly think so, as long as those figures do not come in until — the last of these figures are just coming now, and they do not come in until long after the financial papers have given out their general results in regard to earnings — gross earnings, and net earnings. My figiu-es are from duplicate pages of the annual report sent out by the Interstate Commerce Commission. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Thompson, have you any other sug- gestion to make which would tend to relieve this congestion and shortage of care? Mr. Thompson. Well, I have opinions, but I do not think that I know anvthing beyond what the others have said. Commissioner Harlan. Have you treated of the subject in some of the things that you have written ? CAB SHORTAGE. 439 Mr. TiiOAfPSON. T have written alwiit that, and T have had in- formation from men like Mr. Sanford, and men in the railroad busi- ness, and also from men among my friends, the shipjjers. This question of reconsignment, it seems to me, is one of the vital points, because you know how that average of 23.4 miles is arrived at by the division of the entire car mileage by the numlMM* of cars owned. That 28 miles per day, if you take the average given by the reports of the Interstate Connnerct» Connnission, for the whole United States, is made upon an average haul of 130 or 133 miles. Now, if you ader, 113 care. We did not pick out any special cars — we just took the books and took the first 113 cars we came to. We picked them out by taking some cars from Octoljer 5 to October 8, and Octo- ber 20 to October 22, and November 11 to 13; November 2G to 28. That is, we took the first 113 cars we came to. 458 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Was there any selecting ? Mr. Marcy. No, sir; we just took the car numbers and we looked up the report afterwards, and we have given you the records. There probably are some cases that might be a great deal worse, and some cases not so bad. Commissioner Lane. And you have got a summary of that made up? Mr. Marcy. Yes. We ordered 76 of these 113 cars on the same day we received the railroad notice. We ordered 19 of them one day afterwards; 17 of them two days afterwards, and 1 car three days afterwards. That is, we gave the road disposition to them. We then checked up the railroad records to see the time of delivery to connecting lines, after w^e had given the orders on such cars as were sold to go to other industries or to other elevators than our own. There were 58 out of 113 sold that way, and we find 2 of these cars were delivered the same day, 9 cai-s in one day, 16 cars in two days, 10 cars in three days, 3 cars in four days, 10 cars in five days, 1 car in six days, 6 cars in seven days, and 1 car in fourteen da3's. The balance of the cars, 55, were sent to our own elevators. These eleva- tors are on the tracks of the roads which brought the grain in. They delivered 9 cars to the elevator one day afterwards ; 19 cars two days afterwards; 12 cars, three days; 1 car, four days; 1 car, five days; 6 cars, nine days ; 7 cars, seven days. We unloaded them after they had been put in our yards as follows : Thirty-four cars the same day; 12 cars, one day; 7 cars, two days; 2 cars, three days. In that connection I might say that I think this sheet, as thev have made it up, really shows a better record than they have had for the' last month or so. Commissioner Lane. A better record so far as the railroads are concerned or you ? Mr. Marcy. So far as they are concerned, a better record for the roads in their handling of the traffic. The roads seem to be unable to handle our stuff at terminals with any degree of promptness. It causes a very bad delay and great injury to us as well as to people in the country. Commissioner Lane. Does this react upon the farmer in the country to give him any less in the price of his grain ? Mr. Marcy. Not directly ; where the loss comes in to the man in the country, he buys the grain from the farmer and sells it, and ships it in here. He is out his interest while the grain is being handled and unloaded, he is paid for it, so that there is a slight loss of interest. Then in other cases grain deteriorates if it is in a car too long, especially new grain, corn like we have this year. Recently we had one car, just the other day, off the Burlington road. That road had neglected to deliver the car to the Northwestern road, and I think it was something like twenty days before the Northwestern road got the car. They took about three or four days to put it down to our ele- vator. When the car got there it was black on account of the delay. There are some losses which come along in that way. Then, of course, the country dealers lose by not having these cars unloaded and put back, so that they can reship more grain. Commissioner Lane. Do you know the time that it takes after the grain is taken out of the car at your elevator for the car to get again CAB SHORTAGE. 459 in circulation in the country? How long does it take to get out of Chicat^o? Mr. Makcv. That is handled very promptly for the reason that the roads have their freight houses so i)adly blockaded with merchandise that they keep engines waiting right at the elevator, and almost the moment the car is unloaded they grab it and take it to some coal yard where it is needed for coal. Tne delay in taking empties away Jrom the elevator is not very great. Commissioner Lane, u hy shouldn't they be as anxious to get the car to vou, inasmuch as you uidoad it so quickly? Mr. IVIarcy. Thev are just as anxious, but they do not seem to be physically able to do it. Really the roads are more anxious than the grain people themselves are to get the grain, or nearly as much .so. Of course they have a mutual interest — both the grain men and the I ailroads — in making the work of unloading just as quick as possible. The last year or two it seems to be almost impossible for the roads to handle their terminals. They seem to be handling more business or else they seem to have worn out their engines. At any rate they don't seem to be able to get them fast enough so as to take care of the increase in business. They have not side tracks enough, and they really seem to be demoralized not only here in Chicago, but the same thing applies to Milwaukee. I have had recently reports from our people m Milwaukee to the effect that they would have 15 or 20 or 30 cars out that they could not ^et into the elevator, and they would be out seven or nine days, right m the city of Milwaukee, and our people would have to wait to get the grain and beg the road to send cars down. It seems to be abso- lutely impossible for the roads to turn themselves around so as to set the cars for them to unload. Commissioner Lane. Do you know anything about the situation in tjralveston? Mr. Marcy. No, sir; nothing. Commissioner Lane. You do not ship anything through there? Mr. Marcy. No, sir Commissioner Lane. Did you mean that this statement was not (juite fair to the railroads, that their delays have really been less than is shown here? Mr. Marcy. No; I think it is more than fair to the roads. I Ihink if you will take all the cars in October and November, and say » \('n in DecemlHM', I tliink the records would show a larger average of ili'lay as far as the road was concerned than this statement shows. Of course that is simply the statement of an opinion in my mind, be- ( ause I have had so much trouble in getting our stuff into the ele- vator. Just at the close of navigation we have been very anxious to get in all the grain we could so as to ship it away l>efore the season clost^s, and we have had more or less trouble in getting our stuff in there, and I have formed my opinion from that and my general ex- })erience. This statement was made just at random. Commissioner Laxe. Will you file that with the Commission? Mr. Marcy. Yes, sir. (The same is hereto annexed and marked " Exhibit No. 1 to Mr. Marcy's testimony.) Commissioner Lane. Are there any other questions? Mr. Marcy. I might add that up to two years ago, when we bought 460 CAB SHOBTAGE. grain or ordered grain to our elevators, we always counted that the next morning that ^ain would be in our elevator yard and we would be ready to unload it, and we could count on it and make our arrange- ments accordingly; but last year and this year the reverse has been true. Now, we always count that it will be two or three or four or possibly five days before the grain will get around, figuring that the roads will be very much slower. Mr. Marble. Mr, Marcy, have the roads carried more grain into Chicago this year than the previous year? Mr. Marcy. No, sir. Mr. Marble. Then, this ^eat increase of business that we hear about is not in the grain busmess ? Mr. Marcy. No, sir; it is not. Mr. Marble. About what is the average time that you take for unloading cars after you get them at the elevator, just to put it in one sentence? Mr. Marcy. I do not think to exceed twenty-four hours. Mr. Marble. And now, to put it just in one sentence again, what is the average time that it takes you to get grain to the elevator by the railroads after you give the order? Mr. Marcy. I should think over the tracks of the roads on which our elevator is located, grain which comes in on those roads, three days ; coming over the connections, five days to ten days, Mr. Marble. Over tracks on which your elevators are located, three Jays, and over other roads, five to ten daj'S ? Mr. Marcy. Five to ten days. Mr. Marble. Mr. Patten, if the Commission desires, could you testify as to the conditions at New Orleans? Commissioner Lane. Yes; we would like to know what the condi- tions are there and upon whom the responsibility re-sts, Mr. Patten. I am not at all familiar with Galveston, but at New Orleans we have been doing business that way for ten years, the facili- ties of the Illinois Central (the only line with which we do business) are excedingly fine. The Illinois Central terminals at New Orleans are the finest, I think, in America. I do not think there can be any criticism of the Illinois Central road at New Orleans, and it is the only road we do any business with there. James Bradley, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, tes- tified as follows : Mr. Marble. You reside in the city of Chicago, and are a member of the Nye- Jenks Grain Company ? Mr, Bradley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. You operate elevators here and receive carload ship- ments of grain and unload them at your elevators? Mr. Bradley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. About how many cars a year do you receive? Mr. Bradley, Well, I could not say exactly. Mr, Marble, Can you approximate it for the last year? Mr, Bradley. I should say between 4,000 and 5.000. Mr. Marble. Can you give the average length of time that it has taken you the last year to unload cars at your elevators after receiving them? CAB SHOBTAGE. 461 Mr. Bradley. We make it a point to unload on the same day. Mr. Marble. Do you succeod in doing so ? Mr. Bradley. Almost entirely. Mr. Marble. ^VTiat proportion of the cars are an exception to that? Mr. Bradley. Well, where the elevator is not in operation, and we have two or three cars to put into the yard, we will leave them over until the next day. Mr. Marble. Not longer than until the next day? Mr. Bradley. Not longer than until the next day. Mr. Marble. And then it is because the supply of cars is so small that you consider it does not pay to start the elevator before the next day? Mr. Bradley. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is all the delay you make? Mr. Bradley. That is all the delay we make. Mr. Marble. About what time is consumed after you give the order before getting the cars to the elevator? Mr. Bradley. I should say from three to seven days. Mr. Marble. Three days by what road ? Mr. Bradij:y. Near-by roads. Our elevator is located in South Chicago. Mr. Marble. And it takes seven days from roads farther away ? Mr. Bradujy. Yes, sir. Comniisioner Lane. You have facilities by which you can unload your cars within forty -eight hours always? Mr. Bradley. Always. Commissioner Lane. AVhile the railroads have not got facilities by which they can deliver cars to you in the city short of fifty-six or seventy-two hours? Mr. Bradley. No ; they don't seem to be able to do that. . Commissioner Harlan. Has it been worse this year than last year? Mr. Bradley. Yes, sir; it has. Commissioner Harlan. It is a growing evil? Mr. Bradley. It seems to be growing. Mr. Marble. Have you any trouble in getting grain into the city promptly from the country — in the movement from the country ? Mr. Brapley. No; our receipts at the present time are very late, but we do not hear any complamt from our customers in regard to it. Mr. Marble. Have you had any complaints this year as to that? Mr. Bradley. No; we have not (The witness was e.xcused.) J. J. Stream, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows : Mr Marble. You are manager of the South Chicago Elevator Com- pany? Mr. Stream. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. About how many cars of grain do you unload per year at your elevators, if you can approximate it? Mr. Stream. Fifteen thousand to 20,000 cars each year. Mr. Marble. What would you say is the average time that you take to unload grain after receiving the car at the elevator before you re- lease the car i 462 CAR SHORTAGE. Mr. Stream. The average time? Mr. Marble. Yes. Mr. Stream. I would say twenty- four hours. Mr. Marble. WHiat is the avera^je of the time that it takes you to get a car to your elevator after giving the order? Mr. Stream. To the railroad? Mr. Marble. Yes. Mr. Stream. I could not say anything about the average time. I have got a little memorandum made up from my books that the boys drew up hastily showing the date the cars were ordered to the ele- vator, and showing the number of cars that arrived at the elevator after the orders were given, and showing the time. Mr. Marble. Can you summarize that ? Conmiissioner Harlan. TMiat cars? Mr. Stream. The loaded cars set at the elevator to be unloaded. Those are the cars that were ordered — stuff that we had bought in the country. Mr. Marble. May I read just a little of this? Commissioner Harlan. Yes. Mr. Marble. This is " J. C. Schaffer & Co., October 1 to Decem- ber 1, 1906." Mr. Stream. That covers cars that we had bought in the country, and that we had diverted to our own elevator. Mr. Marble. That is all the business of that particular class? Mr. Stream. Of that particular class, yes. Mr. Marble. You did not select these cars in order to show results ? Mr. Stream. Not at all. Mr. Marble. This disposition was given after inspection. That means that after the grain was inspected you gave orders to have th^ car taken to your elevator? Mr. Stream. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Four hundred and fourteen cars the same day, 2 one dav after, and 1 two days after? Mr. Stream. In other words, all the cars were ordered to the ele- vator the same day that they were inspected. Mr. Marble. Now, tell us the time of delivery to elevator after disposition and order was given ? Mr. Stream. Two cars same day, 80 cars one day after, 78 cars two days after, 63 cars three days after, 70 cars four days after, 47 cars five days after, 21 cars six days after, 20 cars seven days after, 3 cars eight days after, 3 cars nine days after, 10 cars ten days after, 4 cars eleven days after, 5 cars twelve days after, 4 cars thirteen days after, 1 car fifteen days after, 1 car seventeen days after, 1 car nineteen days after, 1 car twenty-eight days after. Commissioner Lane. How many miles did those cars have to travel ? Mr. Stream. Well, that will represent cars that came in on the Alton and on the Illinois Central. We usually order those to be delivered to the Lake Shore, and I think the mileage is less than 10 miles. I am not speaking positively now. Commissioner Lane. Well, it is within 10 or 12 miles? Mr. Stream. Possibly that. Mr. Marble. And they were unloaded at the elevator after receipt — the 417 cars — the same day ? CAB SHORTAGE. 463 Mr. Stream. Yes; every car was unloaded the day it was set out there. Commissioner Harlan. Your experience in this matter of delay is that it is not caused by the grain men of Chicago, as I understand? Air. Stream. No. sir; not at all. Conmiissioner 1I.\ri.an. Are all their elevators suffering from about the same delay that you experience? Mr. Stream. Yes, sir; I think the others are also. Commissioner Harlan. Do you regard that as good service? Mr. Stream. I do not. Commissioner Harlan, ^\^lat financial effect, if any, does it have upon your business? Mr. Stream. Well, if this grain is already sold and I have paid the profits on it, I am to a certain extent at the expense of the loss of interest, and at times we run very slow on delivery of this grain to the elevator and sometimes we get caught with our sales being cancelled, because the grain is not delivered to us in time for us to make delivery. Mr. Marble. Does the element of deterioration of the grain enter into it ? Mr. Stream. Yes; that is quite an element in it. Commissioner Harlan. And insurance ? Mr. Stream. There is no insurance until we get the grain, but often- times the grain deteriorates in condition, and that causes us to suffer a very heavy loss. In the last week I think we have made a claim on the Lake Shore road aggregating over $500 on corn that had got hot and burned up. Commissioner Lane. After all, you take it all out on the farmer at the end, don't you, in the price of the grain? It comes out of his pocket, don't it? Mr. Stream. No, sir; not where we buy grain on a particular grade. We buy grain to be graded here in Chicago. Commissioner Lane. I don't mean that particular shipment, but subsequently you have to figure in this possible loss, and deduct it from what you can afford to pay at all ? Mr. Stream. Well, of course we have got to get that back some way; yes. , The witness was excused. E. B. Boyd, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows: Mr. Marble. You reside in Chicago, and are traffic manager of the board of trade? Mr. Boyd. I am manager of the transportation department of the board of trade. Mr. Marble. Previous to this employment you were a railroad official ? Mr. BoiT). I was. Mr. Marble. ^Miat office did you hold? Mr. Boyd. General freight agent of the Rock Island. Mr. Marble. How many years were you in the railroad business? Mr. Boyd. About twenty-one. Mr. Marble. And you served in other capacities than as general freight agent ? 464 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Boyd. Yes; I did. Mr. Marble. Please tell us what they were, briefly. Mr. Boyd. As clerk and as head of the traffic department, assist- ant general freight agent, and general freight agent. Mr. Marble. Can you tell us what the reconsignment privilege in this territory is, in your own way, giving the reasons for such rules, the application of the rules and the effect thereof ? Mr. Boyd. So far as it pertains to the question of grain, the recon- signment privilege so called is necessary to the merchandising of grain at this market or at any other market that is a terminal one. Grain that arrives at a terminal market is here for the purpose of being sold. Those shippers who wish to consign on the open market do so through their commission house for the purpose of realizing the highest price that the elevator or the local industry or the ex- porter may wish to pay for it. The grain arrives at Chicago and is supposed to be promptly inspected, and indeed it is in 90 per c6nt of the cases. Samples are brought on 'Change, and it is sold and the disposition order is given. That constitutes a reconsignment. The car, of course, must be con- signed to somebody when it arrives here to notify for disposition. The car at that time has made no extra movement. It is retained in the outer yard of the railroad, where they would, of their own motion, hold it after breaking up their train, and from that point it goes to the ultimate destination, wheher an elevator on that particular line or some other line, or some industry within the city. The move- ment completes the original haul for which the charge from the coun- try point to the city is made and which that charge is supposed to cover. It is a continuation of their initial haul. The reconsignment charge formerly was made on all grain leaving the line of the road that brought it in. That constitutes a tax, and it was added back to the country shipper. He frequently demurred and could not see why he should pay one rate for transportation and then, after the grain got to Chicago, pay another charge. We succeeded in getting that taken off. To-day there is no charge of that kind assessed here; but in connection with that I would like to say something in reference to this transit evil. The transit evil, of which much has been said in this hearing and others, is largely exaggerated, especially when you come to the question of grain, and as applied to terminal markets. The question of transit has a much broader meaning than the one which is given to it by the so-called critics. In this large city, whether it be grain or merchandise, coal, lumber, or coke, or any of the commodities in which a merchant may deal, if it is not allowed to come to the center, and from that center be dis- tributed, there is absolutely nothing but a restraint and a restriction of trade that results, because no producer of a commodity of the soil will ever reach the consumer otherwise, and that is almost an axiom. If the public would realize that, and some of the railroads, that it is impossible for the producer to reach the consumer Commissioner Lane. You mean directly, without the intervention of a middleman? Mr. Boyd. Yes; directly; without the intervention of a middle- man. Take, for instance, the grain producer or the farmer. He has no concern as to whom he sells, or who it is that wants his grain CAR SHOBTAOB. 465 ultimately. He does not bother with that. His mind runs in this channel: " I have a bill to pay; my harvest is over, and I have got certain expenses. I take my gi'ain to market and there is someone there to buy it. I do not know that the consumer is in the market, and I care less," There is a big surplus flowing to each market — the great terminal markets — and the terminal markets receive that surplus and take their chances with the consumer. There may be no demand; there is none to-day. The export demand is practically nothing, and the domestic demand is filled. So the large terminal markets are the places where the surplus of the producer can be held, marketed, and disposed of to the best advantage of the purchaser and of tlie consumer. Now, the points of location are matters of very ^reat importance. Those points are determined by geographical position and the pos- session of ample facilities. Now, unless tne rates, which are the prime cause of all the evils in the transportation matter that we have to-day, are so adjusted that in these large centers grain arriving, or com- modities arriving, in here as surplus can be handled and redistrib- uted without paying a penalty (as against some interior city that has no facilities wliatever) then the through rate must be made so as to give these markets transportation without a lot of complicated rules such as this market to-day is laboring under. I said once, in a statement that I made, that we are tied up hero with $500,000 to $700,000 continuously, upon which interest must be repaid wlien the shipment goes through and which it costs the shipper 10 per cent to collect back after the transaction is all over, as if the shipper were to gay to himself, " Well, I have paid 10 per cent, but I have got back my dollar." These are the rules which the large market to-day (Chicago and all the other markets) is subjected to by the character of the rates that are made, and yet the proposition is made that the transit is the cause of the evil. It is impossible to handle the products from the producer to the consumer direct. You must stop them at some point. All these evils that have been charged against this market, and which ha^'e been charged to a great degree to the shipper, find tlieir source in such arrangements. It is up to the railroads to say whether a uniform, modern method of rate making shall prevail instead of an antiquated method such as prevails to-day; whether the former or the latter shall be the rule. If the modern metiiod is adopted, that will settle these problems and it will also settle a largo portion of the delay which is now charged to that particular evil of transit. Commissioner Harlan. WTiat should be your theory of rate mak- ing? Mr. Boyd. I believe it is necessary to concentrate your rate,s at certain recognized terminal points for the distribution of goods. The indiscriminate making of through rates from all territory to all ter- ritory would produr^ a chaotic condition in which nothing but an exjjert — and I doubt if even he — would be able to familiarize himself with the rate. If he can concentrate them, as at a relay station, at certain large centers, and then rebill your shipments, if the shipper desires to rebill S. Doc. 33.3, 59-2 30 466 OAR SHORTAGE. them, he is not then barred from that on the basis of two rates. It matters not whether you make them local or whether you make them proportional, or whether you make the through rate less than the two and then divide it again. For all practical purposes the division becomes two rates after all. Commissioner Harlan. That would divide the country into a series of zones. Mr. Boyd. Yes; and another thing I want to call attention to is that while it divides the country into zones it gives to each zone the benefit of competing markets. Just so long as the rates are so made that the nearest market only has access to the trade, just so long wall you have monopoly, and just so long will the producer suffer. If the rates from the Northwest into Minneapolis are so made that the traffic must seek that gateway, as it will, then the market at that point will be benefited and will retain all that it possibly can. Likewise it will do the same if the rates were so adjusted in regard to Chicago or Kansas City or St. Louis. These zones of terminal points — if the rates are so made — they can be so adjusted relatively that the entire structure will be uniform. When you make through rates by other gateways the traffic is necessarily seeking the privilege of transit through those points. The result is you have got delay to your shipments. It starts in places that have no right to become markets, and if you can bring about a change in that situation, I believe that the car situation will largely solve itself. Commissioner Harlvn. Can you put your views into some forip very succinctly and submit it to the Commission ? ' Mr. Boyd. I will be very glad to, I have nothing more on that question. I want to call particular attention to this car shortage here and especially to the fact that the elevators have made these statements, which I have seen here, showing uniformly a record of, I think, safely speaking, 85 to 90 per cent of all the grain received, handled the same day it is tendered to their elevators. I have gone into that carefully, and I have been before superin- tendents Avho seek to curtail the time, when their ow^n records show that the delays are really not due to the elevator people, but that 1.6 days or, I believe, 1.7 days, the year in and the year out, constitute the detentions at the elevators in Chicago. Mr. Marble. You have made it your business to seek to shorten that time? Mr. Boyd. We have already said to the railroads that we would cut the time for disposition orders — that we would cut it twenty-four hours. We told them that, but we told them that if we had their delays cut down it would be unnecessary. Mr. Marble. It is your observation then that this free time is not used by the grain men? Mr. Boyd. It is not. The only reason we ask for that is owing to some exceptional cases, such as this: There comes a period every year that no one, not even the grain men or the railroad men, can control the movement of traffic in. The farmers unload when it suits them, and that creates congestion. The business comes into Chicago in volumes that neither the rail- roads can handle promptly, nor the elevators, and that makes it CAR SHOBTAOB. 467 impossible to unload each day, and we have had given us five days for the privilege of holding cars to meet just such situations as that, as a sort of reserve time. Now it is the intention to cut out three of ihose five without making any provision whatever in case of emer- gency, and with the statement that they must enforce whatever they do, and can not vary it. That would create a hardship here and should not be done in my opinion, unless some provision is made to take care of those emergencies, because it is beyond the power of the human mind to conceive what is going to happen in the future, and railroads can not help it as they are constituted, and neither can the gi'ain people. Mr. Marble. Did you make any statement or any estimate of the importance of those emergencies and the amount of them in the past ? Mr. Boyd. I would not care to just at the moment, because it re- quires some preparation. I have known a time when hundreds and hundreds of cars of grain were held on the Rock Island road in the city of Chicago, waiting disposition. Mr. Marble. Can you, from your experience as a railroad man. make any suggestion, or offer any plan by which the movement oi freight cars could be stimulated? Mr. BovD. I believe if the railroads would move each twenty-four hours that which has In'en given them for transportation during that twenty-four hours, and do it promptly, without regard to whether they have a full tonnage or not, it would certainly afford a great aid. To this holding of care at various points waiting for tonnage, for the completion of the maximum tonnage for that particular engine, is largely attributable these delays and this congestion when it comes. Commissioner Harlan. In other words, your theory is to apply the same theory that is applied to passengers. The passenger train goes at a fixed time, whether it has 500 passengers or 50 passengers, and your idea is that the freight train should go, whether it has 25 cars or 10? Mr. Born. Certainly, the channels of traffic should be kept open, and as fast as a delivery is made by the public it should be taken care of. Not nec&jsarily run so many trains, but there should be a service which would clean up each day, if possible, that which is given them that day, instead of holding it over to the next day in order to make a certain amount of tonnage. Mr. Marble. It has been said that the very heavy loading of en- gines increases the total movement of freight, and was necessary for the public good. Mr. BovD. That has been said, and it is true in a way, but it all depends on your view point. You may increase the tonnage of your engine, and increase behind it your load, but if you don't move that load what do you accomplish? You start off with no reserve force, and if there should come an accident to the train and you can not overcome it, or make it up by running a little faster, you can see how constantly you will be going downhill. That is the trouble with over- loading your train or engine. If thev are not given an opportunity to make up time in case of an accicfent the result is once delayed, always delayed, and there is no chance of making it up. Commissioner Hari^n. You have not made any statement as to the average delay of carriers in setting cars at the elevators, have you? 468 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. BoTD. Only those which have been offered here to-day. Commissioner Harlan. You have not made any other statement? Mr. Boyd. No. Commissioner Harlan. Have you any statement to make? Mr. Boyd. No; I would not have unless I could gather the infor- mation from each elevator, and that has been done. Mr. Marble. Is there anything further that you wish to offer in regard to the overloading of engines, from your previous experience ? Mr. Boyd. I do not know that it has any particular bearing on the case, except that the instance which I am about to mention, was, in my opinion, an illustration of the method referred to of handling business and its results. At one time we were working under the so-called Hill theory of tonnage, by which everything should move in one train, if possible, and we had occasion to make an investigation on the Rock Island, and in jiassing over one division inquiry among the agents rasulted in the discovery of the fact that several cars had been on the track four or five days waiting movement, waiting for full tonnage; that there had been full trains in one direction and empty trains in another. In some cases it had resulted in the grain deteriorating, and we were somewhat at a loss to know what measure of relief could be afforded to the shipper. Inquiry into the details developed this fact: The train sheets were made up so as to show a full movement behind each engine, and where a return crew (that is, an engine and a caboose) went from one tertni- nal back to another, that was not considered a train, but if any tonnage in the way of surplus was added to that train in order to clean up, and it was not a full complement, that became a train of deficit, and, of course, an explanation was required. I have eveiy reason to believe that that condition prevails in a great many more places than the one we discovered. An engine passed the station four days in succession, with nothing behind it, and yet the cars could not be taken up, because it would make a short train. That, however, no longer obtains. Mr. Marble. You mean it no longer obtains on the Rock Island road? Mr. Boyd. No, I think not; our reports show very good service, and I know they went out of their way to bring cars mto the North- west, involving an empty haul, in order to clean up that condition there which had been reported to us, and I know their road is run- ning now in very good shape. Mr. Marble. To your knowledge has that plan of heavy tonnage, in order to get figures of a great many ton miles per train mile traveled, been adopted by railroads other than the Hill roads, and afterwards abandoned? Mr. Boyd. I think it was adopted by a great many and discarded. Every superintendent seeks to get the limit out of his engines. The question is where to draw the line. It has not been adopted in such extreme measure as it was in the past. I am sure it has been broken away from, because it is not applicable to the present traffic condi- tion in this territory. That was a case of tonnage gone mad. The shadow still remains. Mr. Marble. But the difference between these roads and the North- western road is that these roads are largely competitive. CAR SHORTAQB. 469 Mr. Boyd. Largely competitive, entirely so. Mr. Marble, And you regard this method of operation as impracti- cable in competitive territory ? Mr. Boyd. I do. Mr. Marbij:. Do you know whether it still obtains on the north- western roads in noncompetitive territory? Mr. Boyd. That is my information. Mr. Marbi^. On the Great Northern and Northern Pacific? Mr. Boyd. That is the complaint we get. Mr. Marble. You get that complaint? Mr. Boyd. From the shippers, yes; they come in and talk about it. F. H. Harwood, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows : Mr. Marbij:. You are with the Illinois Central Railway? Mr. Harwood. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. In charge of the coal traffic on that road? Mr. Harwood. Yes, sir. Mr. Marbij:. Have you had cars enough to move your traffic this year? Mr. Harwd. No; I can not say that we have had cars enough for the amount of business offering. Mr. ISIarbi^. How far behind would you say that your road is as to the number of cars? Mr. Harwood. That is a difficult matter for me to say, for the reason that there are so many shippers that have duplicate orders, and it fs impossible to figure out just exactly how many cars are needed. Mr. Marble. You think that really you are so far behind as the figures would seem to show ? Mr. Harwood. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. That is your point? Mr. Harwood. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. Have you had trouble with the slowness of movement of your cars after gettmg the coal into them this year? Mr. Harwood. Very little; our coal moves very promptly. The maximum haul is from what we term the Carterville district, 320 miles from Chicago, and while there are occasional cases where the cars are delayed by reason of bad weather conditions, as a general proposition the movement is accomplished in from two to four days. Air. Marble. From two to four days for the 320-mile haul? Mr. Harwood. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. How many division points do you pass through? Mr. Harwood. Two. Mr. Marble. How much of that time is consumed at the division points? Mr. Harwood. So far as I know — I am not thoroughly familiar with the operations of those points — but I should judge that the delay at these terminal points will not exceed twelve hours. Mr. Marble. Twelve hours in each ? Mr. Harwood. We only pass through one division point. Mr. Marble. Are the cars handled by your company in this city used for warehouse purposes? Mr. Habwood. We feel that they are. 470 CAB SHORTAGE. Mr. Marble. Will you express yourself on that point as to the amount of that evil, and as to the best course to remedy it — any remedy you can suggest? Mr. Harwood. As a rule, coal hauled into Chicago is under a reconsignment arrangement. There are very few dealers that con- sign their coal direct to the consumer. There are several reasons for that, one being that they want to avoid allowing the operator to know to whom the coal is to go, for fear that operator will sell the coal direct. Another reason is that so many of the dealers or brokers will possibly overlook a contract, and in the event of a shortage of cars, they use the reconsigning for distributing their coal. I have a list showing that during the month of October we brought into Chicago 7,528 cars, and of that number there were 5,975 cars reconsigned, showing that there was only a total of 1,553 cars billed direct from the mines to the consumer. During the month of October the average free-time limit in Chicago was five days. That is, the dealer had the privilege of hold- ing the car five days on the track before reconsigning. After he reconsigned the car it would take from twenty-four to forty-eight hours to switch it out from the yard and pick it out from 1,500 to 2,000 cars, those particular individual cars, and make a delivery to the final point or destination, whether for team \track delivery, or whether for industries on our line or connecting roads. Then there was a certain amount of delay or time consumed by the delivering road in placing those cars, and after they were once placed forty-eight hours was allowed for the unloading. So that in reality on a great portion of the coal delivered to Chicago, after it arrives, and the cars are made empty, and the empties delivered back to our line, it consumes anywhere from six to fifteen days, and even twenty days. Mr. Marble. You mean that free time was used ? Mr. Harwood. That free time was used in a great many cases; I think in a majority of cases. Commissioner Harlan. And that was without any cost? Mr. Harwood. And that was without any cost. During the last thirty days the free time on the Illinois Central has been reduced from five to three days, and, elfective on Monday, a reconsigning charge of $2 per car will be inaugurated. We feel that under that arrangement coal will be billed direct from the mines to the con- sumer, so that when it arrives at Chicago, instead of going into the " hold " yard, with 1,500 or 2,000 other cars, it will go direct to the user, thereby getting better results from our equipment, and enabling us to handle more tonnage. Commissioner Harlan. You heard the statement made this morn- ing that forty-eight hours would be sufficient? Mr. Harwood. Yes ; and probably forty-eight hours would be suf- ficient time. Commissioner Harlan. If that is so, and if you believe that that is all the time required, why should you put the blame on the con- signees for holding up the cars ? Mr. Harwood. For this reason : The coal industry is not one of com- petition between roads operating from the same district, but it is a com- mercial competition that has one railroad operating from West Vir- CAB SHORTAGE. 471 ginia, handling the West Virginia product or the Ohio coal into Chi- cago, and that coal comes into competition with coal from Illinois off the western roads, with a like privilege of five days' reconsigning time, and if the western roads would adopt the rule of fort^'-eight hours it would very soon transfer a large volume of traffic to the eastern mines. Commissioner Harlan. Do you agree with Mr. Daly that it would be best to have some power iujposo a uniform rule i Mr. Harw(h)d. I think it would be a good plan. Mr. Daly, I be- lieve, stated in regard to the free time at Chicago, that it would be reduced if the roads would get together and form an agreement. We can not do that very well, but we have taken independent action and some of the other lines have followed and reduced the time, irrespective of eastern competition. We have done that to get better results, and believing that we would. I would like, however, to call attention to one thing, and that is, why there should l)e a shortage at this particular time. From my personal knowledge, the western dealers, all through the western country, wait until the cold weather sets in before ordering coal. They make no provision whatever to put coal in storage during the summer months, when there is a largo surplus of equipment. The same is true as to coal used for the production of steam in the large centei's. The conditions of business have enabled them to build up their manufacturing points, taking away yard room that was for- merly used for the storage of fuel, and you will find that in a great many cases the manufacturer w-ill store six months' or a year's supply of raw material, but will altogether overlook the fact of the necessity for a fuel supply. Commissioner Harlan. Isn't it quite necessary that they should rely upon you to accommodate yourself to them instead of accommo- dating themselves to you? Why should they tie up this money from July to January? Mr. Harwood. We tie up our money in the matter of storing coal during the summer time in order to have that coal to use in the winter, a;id that would be nothing less than reciprocity on their part to also provide storage. Commissioner Harlan. I do not say that they should not, but it is natural that they should look to you to supply the cars at the time when they want them. That is the way they feel about it. Mr. Harwood. Very true. Commissioner Harlan. Well, do they use your cars as storehouses? Mr. Harwood. Practically ; the free time given amounts to a storage privilege. Commissioner Harl^vn. How long a time do you give them to unload the cars? Mr. Harwood. Everyone has forty-eight hours after they are placed. Mr. D. A. Sage (a coal merchant residing in Chicago). May I ask a qiiestion ? Commissioner Lane. Yes ; what is it ? Mr. Sage. Mr. Harwood in his testimony refers to the issue of December 18. I would like to ask this particular question in regard to this tariff. (Witness refers to the Illinois Central Railroad Sup- plement No. 3, to Interstate Commerce Commission No. E-624.) 472 CAR SHORTAGE. Perhaps I had better read it. It reverses the above-described tarirf in so far as concerns shipments of soft coal in carloads from pointe in Illinois and Indiana: Refer to above-described tariffs, and so far as concerns shipments of soft coal, carloads forwarded from points in Illinois and Indiana, cancel reference therein to Chicago, 111., in list of exceptions, as orders reconsigning soft coal, carloads, handled by the Illinois Central Railroad into Chicago, Grand Cross- ing. Fordhani, Kensington, Wildwood, Riverdale. Harvey, West Pullman, Blue Island, Windsor Park, Cheltenham, and South Chicago, 111., from points in Illi- nois and Indiana, except from off the Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago and St Ix)uis Railway, will not be accepted unless accompanied by a remittance cov- ering a reconsigning charge of $2 per car, plus any and all accrued car service or demurrage charges. The question I wish to put to the witness is simply this : AVTiy is there an exception in regard to coal commg except by the Three C's and St. L. ? Why is there an exception, and why is this tariff not in violation of the rules of the Interstate Commerce Com- mission for the reason that it is discriminatory as against the shipper? Commissioner Lane. The last question will be reserved for the Commission to answer. As to the first part of the question, as to, the reason for putting that tariff in, it is all right. Mr. Harwood. In regard to eliminating the Big Four from that arrangement? Commissioner Lane. Yes. Commissioner Haklan. I would like to have that rule translated into plain English. AMiat does it all mean ? Mr. Harwood. It means that on next Monday we establish a recon- signing charge of $2 a car on all coal arriving in Chicago over the Illinois Central Railroad, except on interstate traffic from Indiana, on which the time is effective January 19. Commissioner Harlan. There is a special road mentioned there. Mr. Harwood. That is the Big Four, operating into Chicago over our tracks from Kankakee. Under the terms of the contract, as I understand, between the Big Four and Illinois Central they have the same rights over our tracks and on our terminals as we have, and it also provides, I think, that we have no voice or no right to establish any rules with regard to Big Four business without their consent. Commissioner Harlan. Then it does not result in giving coal over that road a benefit that is not enjoyed by other coal, does it ? Mr. Harwood. Just the same as it gives the benefit to the coal com- ing over the Pennsylvania, the Baltimore and Ohio, the Lake Shore, and all the eastern roads. They have not adopted this rule. They allow four days' free time without any reconsigning charge. The Big Four handle exclusively eastern coal into Chicago over our tracks from Kankakee to Chicago, which does not originate in Illinois. Commissioner Harlan (addressing Mr. Sage). You can raise that question at any time you wish before the Commission as to the legal- ity of that charge. Mr. Sage. I have already done so. One more question : May I be permitted to ask if the Illinois Central is in any way concerned in the operation of coal mines as a corporation, or are there individuals in the employ of the Illinois Central who are interested, directly or indirectly, in the operation of coal mines on the Illinois Central road ? Mr. Harwood. I handle the coal traffic on the Illinois Central. I Car shortage. 473 am not familiar with the question which Mr. Sage has asked and I can not answer it. Mr. Sage. So far as your knowledge goes, then, you have no knowl- edge of any such situation? Mr. Harwood. I have no knowledge of it. Commissioner Haruin. You are not yourself interested in any coal mines? Mr. Harwood. Most certainly I am not; not in anyway whatever. Commissioner Harlan. Do you know whether Mr. Daly is? Mr. Harwood. I do not know, but I do not think he is. Mr. Daly. The answer to that is that I am not. Mr. Sage. May I be jx^rmitted to say to the Commission that it is considered to be a fact that the Illinois Central for a numl)er of yeai-s has been engaged in the operation of coal mines in competition with these shippers and the operating interests of their own road. Commissioner Lane. I will say on behalf of the Commission that we are to open an investigation upon that matter probably in Janu- ary or February here, and you can prestMit to us at that time any facts of which you may be aware, and we Avill be very glad to have them. They will be in turn reported to Congress. Mr. Marble. Have you moved more coal into this city this year than last? Mr. Harwood. I think our records will show about the same move- ment. I do not think it has increased. The witness was excused. E. F. Rosenbaum, called as a witness, was duly sworn and testified as follows : Mr. Marble. You are a memeber of the Rosenbaum Grain Com- pany ? Mr. Rosenbaum. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. In charge of its business? Mr. Rosenbaum. Acquainted with its business. Mr. Marble. Have you prepared figures relating to the time which it takes your firm to unload grain cars in this city? Mr. Rosenbaum. I have the figures ; yes, sir. Mr. Marble. What is the average of the time which it takes to unload grain after it is placed at your elevator? Mr. ISjsenbaum. I have here a list of 126 cars taken at random, in which it has taken from one day to seventeen days for the road to deliver after the disposition order was given. The disposition order was given on the same days that the cars arrived here and these cars were unloaded the same day that they wore delivered to the elevator. Commissioner Harlan. What period does that cover? Mr. Rosenbaum. It covers the period principally of November and December. Mr. Marble. How did you select those cars — so as to show extreme cases of railroad delay? Mr. Rosenbaum. Those cars were selected without instructions in the office. They were told to go to the books and take out a few cars from each week without any reference to the numl)er of the car. Commissioner Harlan. These cases are typical of the service you have had during these two months 2 474 CA3 SHORTAGE. Mr. RosENBAUM. Yes, sir. Mr. Marble. They are not extreme cases? Mr. RosENBAUM. They are not extreme cases. Commissioner Lane. And there was no delay on your part in unloading at the elevator ? Mr. HosENBAUM. The average during the month of July at the Irondale Elevator in South Chicago — during the month of July we handled about 80 per cent of the cars the day they were delivered. During the months of September and October we unloaded about 90 per cent the day they were delivered. In November and up to date we have unloaded about 100 per cent the day they were delivered. Mr. Marble. And the remainmg percentage would stand simply until the next day ? Mr. Rosenbaum. It might be the next day, or it might be two days, but practically all within the five-day period. Mr. Marble. Have you paid some demurrage? Mr. RosEXBAUM. \Ve have paid demurrage occasionally. Mr. Marble. How many cars do you unload in the course of ^ year ? Mr. RosENBAUM. I could not give you that. * Mr. Marble. Can you approximate it ? Mr. RosENBAUM. No ; I would not like to approximate it. Mr. RosENBAUM. Well, I should say up to date that we have un- loaded in Chicago, since the 1st of July, in all our elevators, possiblv 8,000 cars. Commissioner Harlan. Mr. Rosenbaum do you regard that service by the railroads as good service? Mr. Rosenbaum. No, sir. Commissioner Harlan. Has it caused you any financial loss ? Mr. Rosenbaum. The local service has caused us a very little finan- cial loss. It is the service in the country, and in the Southwest that has caused us financial loss. Commissioner Harlan. That is, delays in transit ? Mr. Rosenbaum. Delays in getting equipment at our country sta- tions. At the present time we are practically closed down in Okla- homa and Kansas. Our elevators are full, and in many instances we have grain on the ground. Commissioner Harlan. How much grain do you suppose you have on the ground ? Mr. Rosenbaum. I could not give you that, I expected to be here this afternoon, and not this morning, and consequently I have not all my figures with me, but it is safe to say that we have grain on the ground at possibly eight stations and that it will run very little less than several thousand bushels. Commissioner Harlan. Are all the elevators in Oklahoma and Kansas practically filled? Mr. Rosenbaum. They are all in the same boat. Commissioner Harlan. Not only of your own company, but of the other line companies? Mr. Rosenbaum. Every line company is practically in the same shape. Commissioner Harlan. Can you stop buying grain out there? Mr. Rosenbaum. In Oklahoma we have stopped buying grain to a very large extent. CAB SHORTAGE. 475 Commissioner Harlan, When you buy grain and put it on the ground, you buy it with a safe margin, having that in view? Mr. RosENBAUM. We don't buy it to put it on the ground. "Wlien we contracted for this grain we expected to have room in the ele- vators to take it in. Possibly we had heard that there was an empty somewhere. AVhen the farmer brought it in we had contracted it to him. He needed the money and there was nothing else for us to do except to pay him and take the grain. Mr. Marbi I want to say that we are in a normal condition. We have got more f power than we have cai-s to move, and there is no trouble in the handling of cars on the Illinois Central Railroad that I have been advised of after we get the disposition of them. While I have a great many complaints on account of shortage of cars, it is very rarely that I have a complaint as to their movement; in fact, I have not had one [ for several weeks. It shows a very good condition in that respect on ' our line of road. Commissioner Lane. I think, with profit, you might very well be transferred to some other lines of which we have heard. Mr. Marble. Now, while there are many other witnesses in Chi- cago, whom perhaps you would like to hear, their testimony would be largely cumulative. Commissioner Lane. We have no more subpcenas out, have we? Mr. Marble. No, your honor. The figures from Bartlett, Frazier, and Carrington I will put in the record, and the figures referred to by Mr. Marcy, showing the unloading time. Commissioner Lane. Is there any gentleman representing either the shippers or the railroads who desires to be further heard? (No response.) Commissioner Lane. This hearing is adjourned. Thereupon, at 1 p. m., the Commission adjourned. STATEMENT OF PAPERS FILED IN CONNECTION WITH TESTIMONY TAKEN IN CAR-SHORTAGE IN- VESTIGATION AT MINNEAPOLIS, MINN., DECEM- BER 17, 18, AND 19, 1906, AND AT CHICAGO, ILL., DECEMBER 20 AND 21, 1906. S. Doc. 333, 59-2 31 STATEMENT OF PAPERS FILED IN CONNECTION WITH TESTI- MONY TAKEN IN CAR-SHORTAGE INVESTIGATION AT MINNE- APOLIS, MINN., AND CHICAGO, ILL. Record file No, 1. — Jamme, L. T.. secretary Chamber of Commerce of Minne- apolis, Minn. Comparative statement of receipts of the Chicago, Milwaukee and s€ Paul Railway Company, Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha Railway Com- pany, Minneapolis and St. Louis Railway Company, Wisconsin Central Rail- way Company, Great Northern Railway Company, Northern Pacific Railway Company, Chicago Great Western Railway Company, Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railway Company, Minneapolis, St. Paul and Sault Ste. Marie Railway Company, and the Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railway Company, for the years 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906. (Exhibit 1.) Record file No. 2. — Moore, H. B., secretary Duluth Board of Trade, Dtihith, Minn. 2. Letter dated November 20, 1906, from H. B. Moore, to the Great Northern Railway Company, Northern Pacific Railway Company, and the Chicago. St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha Railway Company, complaining of delay in move- ment of grain destined to ix)ints at the head of the Lakes. (Exhibit 1.) 2-1. Copy of reply of E. C. Blanchard, superintendent. Northern Pacific Rail- way Company, dated November 21, 1906, to Mr. Moore's letter giving assurance that everything possible would be done to relieve the condition complained of. (Exhibit No. 2.) 2-2. Copy of letter of D. M. Philbin, assistant general superintendent Great Northern Railway Company, dated November 22, 190G, in answer to Mr. Moore's letter, stating that Great Northern Railway will use every effort to provide necessary transportation facilities, and that delay had been due to congestion at Superior and Duluth caused by increase of business and difficulty in securing trainmen to handle yard traffic. (Exhibit No. 3.) 2-3. Letter, dated December 15, 1906, to H. B. Moore, from McKindley & Nicholls, of Duluth, Minn., in regard to delay in movement of grain shipped by them, and inclosing statement showing the date they were advised of ship- ment, date of inspection, car initials, and car number. (Exhibit No. 4.) 2-4. Statement of Minnesota Grain Company, giving instances of delay and complaining of insufficient transportation facilities. (Exhibit No. 5.) 2-5. Letter, dated December 15, 1906, from William Dalrymple, of Duluth, Minn., to H. B. Moore, inclosing list of cars shipped to him over various lines, and giving dates of shipment, shipping points, car number, date unloaded at elevator, and number of days such shipments were in transit. (Exhibit No. 6.) 2-6. Letter, dated December 15, 1906, from Grain Producers' Elevator Com- pany, of Duluth. Minn., to H. B. Moore, stating the number of cars shipped to them which were twenty days or more in transit. (Exhibit No. 7.) 2-7. Letter, dated December 15, 1906, from Randall-Gee & Mitchell, of Duluth, Minn., to H. B. ^loore, inclosing statement of cars which were not less than fourteen days in transit, and giving car initials, car number, point of shipment, date advised of shipment, and date of arrival in Duluth. (Exhibit No. 8.) 2-8. Letter dated December 15, 1906, from H. Poehler Company to H. B. Moore, giving statement of shipment to Duluth, showing date of shipment, car Initials, car number, point of shipment, and date unloaded. (Exhibit No. 9.) 2-9. Letter dated December 15, 1906, from the Atwood-Larson Company, of Duluth, Minn., to H. B, Moore, inclosing list of cars considered to have been an unreasonable length of time in transit (Exhibit No. 10.) 480 CAB SHORTAGE. 481 2-10. Letter dated December 15, 1906, from the John Miller Ctompauy, Duluth, Minn., to H. B. Moore, giving statement covering r>80 cars, and giving the number of days same were in transit. (Exhibit No. 11.) 2-11. I^etter dated December 15, IfKMJ, from Freemire, Remund & Ck)., of Duluth, Minn., to H. B. Moore, giving statement of cars shipi)ed from points in North Dakota, giving date of shipment, point of shipment, car initials, car numlnT. date of manifest, and date unloadetter dateil IX>ceml)er 15. lOOT.. from Arbogast & Hall, Duluth, Minn., to II. B. Moore, inclosing list of cars wlilch they regard as having been an unreasonable length of time In transit. (Kxhlbit No. 13.) 2-13. Ixjtter dated December 18, 1906, from II. B. Moore to the Interstate Commerce Commission, correcting his testimony in regard to amount of grain in elevators at Duluth and Sui>erior on December 13. Record file No. S. — Blanchard, E. C, superiHtciKlcnt, Ik'urtlurn Paclflc Railtcay Company. 3. .Map of Superior, Wis. (Exhibit No. 1.) 3-1. Map of railway systems in Duluth and Superior. (Exhibit No. 2.) 3-2. Map showing the Northern Pacific yard at Rice's I'oint, Duluth, MIdq (Exhibit No. .3.) 3-.3. Letter from E. C. Blanchard addresswl to .John H. Marble, attorney for the Connnission. datetl December 10, 1!HM!. Inclosing, as recpiested. statement showing the time on road of through freiglit trains in the month of November, 1906; Ijike Sui>erior division, second and third districts. Record file No. ^.—^Hehncr, E. E.. northwestern salca agent, St. Paul and Western Coal Company, 8t. Paul, Minn. 4. lyctter of Messrs. Gartlaud & Dunlevy dated December 13, 1906, addressed to .7. II. Marble, inclosing card showing that a car of Hocking Valley coal was shipped from Northwest(M-n Fuel Company on November 13 and stating that this car had not been rix-eivetl. 4-1. letter dateil DtH-ember 10, 1906. addressed to Messrs. Gartland & Dun- levy. Yale. S. Dak., by Mr. Ileimer, stating that they can not entertain his order for two cars of Hocking lump coal via the Great Northern, as they are re- ceiving practically no cars over that line. (Exhibit No. 1.) Record file No. 5. — Dieson, A. O., chief clerk, M. A. II anna Coal Company. 5. Memorandum showing that the M. A. Ilanna Coal Company shipi»eeoeniber 12, 190C; showing the number of foreign cars on Soo line and the number of Soo cars on foreign roads. (Exhibit No. 1.) Record file No. 15. — Loftus, Oeorge 8., 'manager, Loftua-Hubbard Elevator Company. 15. CorresiJondence relating to delay in delivery of carload of oats ordered shlpiKMl to Deer Ulver. (Exhibit No. 1.) 15-1. Shii)plng Instructions on carload of oats from Rolla, N, Dak., to l)e shl|)iKHl to Deer River. (Exhibit No. 2.) 15-2. letter from Geo. S. Loftus to the Railroad and Warehouse Commission of Minnesota In regard to the n\iml)er of cars now In the railroad yards at Dulnth ready to be unloaded ; states that if cars arc not immediately set for unloading large loss will be Incurred from decline In market and demurrage charges ; asks that the connnisslon endejivor to secure prompt movement of cars. (Exhll)lt No. 4.) 15-3. Freight bills showing delay In delivery of shiinnents via various lines. (Exhibit No. 7.) 15-4. r>etters from K. N. Bragestad, of Gary, Minn., dated November 14, 190G, to Ix)ftus-Hu1»l>ard Elevator Compan/", stating that he Is unable to get any cars for hay shipments. (F]xhiblt No. 9.) 15-5. I.«tter from W. 1'. Chase, dated NovemlK'r 30. 1900, to the Loftus-IIub- bard Elevator Company, regarding their inability to get sutticlent cars for hay shipments. (Exhibit No. 10.) 15-G. CorresiH)ndence between the Railroad and Warehouse Commission of Minnesota and the Ix)ftus-nul)bard Elevator Company regarding delay in movement of various cars on different lines. (Exhibit No. 11.) 15-7. Staten)ent of cars shlpi)ed between October 1 and December 1, showing the delay in transit or In placing the cars where delivery could be effecteil. Also various freight bills and letters relating thereto. (Exhibit No. 12.) 16-8. letter from Wlemer & Rich, dated October 13 and 17 and November 2 and 9, 1900, to the Ixjftus-Mubbard Elevator Company, in regard to their inability to secure cars for hay shipments. (Exhibit No. 13.) 15-9. I>etter from S. C. Moore, dated December 18. 1900, to Ijoftus-IIubbard Elevator Comi^any. on the same subject. (Exhibit No. 14.) 15-10. Various paiters relating to shipment of car of oats purchased from the Imperial F^levator Company. (Exhibit No. 15.) 15-11. Agreement of II. A. I'eck, datetl September 12. 1900, with the Ix)ftU8- Huhbard Elevator Company to deliver 710 tons of hay to be loaded l>efore No%emlH'r 15, 1900. 1.5-12. I^etters from the Ulen Mercantile Ck)mpany to Tx)ftU8-Hubbard Ele- vator Company, relating to the car shortage at t^len, Minn. (PLxhlblt No. 17.) 1.5-1.3. C«)rr€»siM)nden<-e between the Minnesota Shippers and Receivers' Asso- ciation and a. II. Cunningham, regarding the Inadequate numl>er of cars fur- nished Mr. Cunningham, of Sturgeon Lake, Minn. Record file No. 16. — Hawley, A. H., safety-appliance inspector. Interstate Com- merce Commission, Davenport, Iowa. 10. Statement showing the em|)ty cars on the tracks of the Great Northern Railway Company noted by him while en route from Spokane, Wash., to Minneapolis. 484 CAB SHORTAGE.- Record file No. 17. — Winter, O. B., safety-appUattce inspector. Interstate Com- merce Commission, Salt Lake City, Utah. 17. Statements showing empty cars on the tracks of the Northern Pacific be- tween Spokane, Wash., and Minneapolis, Minn., noted by personal observation. Record file No. 18. — Richards, I. B., car accountant. Northern Pacific Railway Company. IS. Statement showing the fuel situation on the Dakota division of the Northern Pacific Railway Company on December 16, 1906. ^ 18-1. Statement showing the fuel situation on the Minnosota division of the Northern Pacific Railway on December 16, 1906. Record file No. 19. — De Veau, James, grain mercliant, Minneapolis and Duluth. Minn. 19. Statement showing the delay in movement of freight, the name of railroad on which said delays occurred, date of shipment, car number, point of shipment, date of inspection, and date of unloading at Duluth. Record file No. iO. — Hill, James J., president. Great Northern Railway Company. 20. Statement showing the number of tons of revenue freight carried over the Great Northern Railway Line for the years 1902 to 1906. inclusive; also the number of tons of revenue freight hauled 1 mile from June 30, 1883, to date. 20-1. Statement of the locomotives on the Great Noi-thern system and the traction power employed from June 30, 1901, to December 1, 1906. 20-1. Statement showing number of cars and tonnage capacity of revenue- freight equipment, June 1, 1901, to December 1, 1906. 20-3. Comparative statement of tons moved 1 mile and density of traffic for year ended June 30, 1906. 20-4. Density of traflic of Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railroad, New York Central and Hudson River Railroad, and Pennsylvania division of Penn- sylvania Railroad for 1905. 20-5. Statement of various divisions showing tons moved 1 mile, average tons per train mile and per loaded car mile, mileage, and ton-miles per mile of main track for the mouths of July, August, September, and October, 1905 and 1906. 20-6. Statement of railway mileage in the United States for 1870, 1880, 1890, 1904, and 1906. 20-7. List of unfilled orders calling for immediate shipment on December 15, i9oa Record file No. 21. — Marble, J. If., attorney. Interstate Commerce Commission. 21. Letter from G. H. Reeves, secretary and treasurer of the Northwestern Retail Coal Dealers' Association, to J. H. Marble, inclosing letter from Fred J. Kruse, of La Moure, N. Dak., regarding delay in shipments from Superior and also eastern points. (Exhibit No. 1.) 21-1. Letter from E. E. Heiner, to the Commission, with reference to two specified cases of delay in shipments of fuel and inclosing letters in r^ard thereto from Harry T. Alsop. of Fargo, N. Dak., and W. F. Hanks & Co., of Pleasant Lake, N. Dak. (Exhibit No. 2.) 21-2. Letter complaining of the delay in furnishing cars for cattle shipments at McClusky, N. Dak., and delay in movement of same when loaded : also complaining* of lade of cars for grain and cattle shipments at New Rockford, N. Dak., and inclosing photograph of cattle kept in open pen at McClusky from December 7 to 12 because of failure of railway to furnish cars; at this time the mercury ranged as low as 26° below zero. (Exhibit No. 3.) 21-3. Letter from the Sorenson Milling Company, dated Deceml)er 14, 1906, to editor, Minneapolis. Minn., regarding their inability to secure an adequate supply of cars for shipment of wheat on hand; also referring to small fuel 8UW>iy. (Exhibit No. 4.) 21-4. Letter to the Minneapolis Journal, dated November 30, 1906, from Soren- son's elevator at iledbery, N. Dak., complaining of car shortage and discrimi- nation against Medl)ery in distribution of cars. (Exhibit No. 5.) 21-5. Letter dated Decembo- 14, 1906, from the Farmers' Cooperative Ele- vator Company, of Oriska, N. Dak., to J. H. Marble giving the number of cars CAB SHOBTAGE. 485 received and shipped last year as ttunpared with the present year, and stating tliat owing to the inal)iiity to sci'ure cars they had been «><»ni|)elletl to close tlieir elevator. (Exhibit No. 6.) 21-6. Letter dated I>eceuiber 27. 1906, from Thomas Gauf;Iian, of Verona, N. Dak., to the State Banlc of Lisbon. N. l>ak.. statinjr that lie is unable to get any cars in whifh to ship jrrain : letter of cashier of State Rank, Lisl>on, trans- mitting said letter to the Minneapolis Journal. (FIxhibit No. 7.) 21-7. Letter from F. M. Sniitli. (liitocceml>er 1. IIMMJ. to the editor of the M!nneai)olis Journal, statins that Clifford, N. Dak., has^ lost at least $2r>.(>U0 worth of business on act-ount of the present car shortaKe. (Kxlill»it No. 8.) 21-8. Letter dated Det-ember 11, 190<). from George A. Wells, secretary of the Iowa Grain Dealers' As.»ecenilH>r 12. 190(>. from A, D. Tomlinson, of New Rock- ford, N. Dak., to J. II. Marltle, stating that they are unable to get adequate car facilities to handle their grain. (Exhibit No. 10.) Record file No. 22. — McKenna, -E. IF., second vice-president, Chicago, ililtcaiikee and 8t. Paul Railicay Company. 22. Statement showing the car situation of the Chicago, Milwaukee and St Paul Railway, the Increase In ton mileage, car efliclency, car shortage, etc. 22-1. letter dated Deceml>er 24, 1906, to Commissioner Lane, inclosing the following statements : Inventorj* of locomotive and freight-car equipment for the fiscal years ending June 30, 1901 to 1900, Inclusive; tons revenue freight carried one mile for the same i)erlod. Statement of car balance l)Otween the Chicago, ^Iihvauk(H» and St. Paul Rallwaiv Companj* and various roads at different dates lictween July 1 to De- cember"20, 1906. Record file No. 2S. — Sanford, C. If'., manager, Chicago Car Service Association. 23. letter dated Deceml>er 30, 190er 1, 1906, Record file No. 2ti.— Anderson, M. C, Franksville, Wis. 26. I/etter dated Decen)f>er 17, 1906, from M. C. Anderson, addressed to the Commission, explaining dlttlculty In securing cars for shipment of cabbage. 26-1. Two photograpiis siiowlng caltbage piled on vacant lot at Franksville, Wis. Record file No. 27. — Kruttschnitt, Julius, director of maintenance and operation, I'nion Pacific Railiray. 27. Comparison of freight tratflc handled and capacity of available equipment for fiscal years ending June .30. 1902 to 1906, inclusive, and estimate for 1907. 27-1. Chart showing the above. 27-2. Statement showing mileage and miles of sidings and double track for each 1.000 miles of main track. 27-3. Chart showing the above. 486 CAB SHORTAGE. Record file No. 28. — Willard, D., second vice-president, Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railway Company. 28. Transportation report for the 20th of December, 190G, showing the movement of the loaded and empties for the entire system. 28-1. Letter from D. Willard, dated December 29, 1906, addressed to Com- missioner Lane, transmitting, as reijuested, the following: Statement showing amounts expended by the company for additional equipment, tracks, terminal facilities, etc., for the past five years ; and car balance report from September 5, 1906, to December 18, 1906, showing the number of Chicago, Burlington and Quincy cars on foreign lines and the number of foreign Gai"s on the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy lines. Record file No. 29. — Marble, J. H., attorney Interstate Commerce Commission. 29. Letter dated December 12, 190(5, to Hon. Thomas F. Marshall, M, C, from the Farmers' Elevator Company, of Maza, N. Dak., regarding their inability to secure cars to move their grain. 20-1. Similar letter dated December 8, 1906, from the Commercial Club of Minot, N. Dak. 29-2. Letter dated December 8, 1906, from C. B. Hughes, of Rugby, N. Dak., to the Minneapolis Journal as to insufficient transportation facilities at Rugby, N. Dak., and Tunbridge, and reporting shortage of cars at Rugby and Pleasant Lake and Tunbridge, N. Dak. 29-3. Ijetter dated November 30, 1906, from Judd Williams, manager of Kensal Farmers' Elevator, Kensal, N. Dak., to the Minneapolis Journal as to car shortage at Kensal, N. Dak. 20-4. Cartoon prepared by the manager of the Illinois and Iowa Car Service Association favoring demurrage rate of $3 a day and a reconsignment charge of $5 per car. Record file No. SO. — Stickney, W. M., of Lowell, Hoit d Co., grain merchants, Chicago, III. 30. Copy of circular letter addressed to the grain merchants in Iowa and Illinois, regarding the shortage of cars, loss thus sustained, etc., and replies thereto. ( Exhibit No. 1. ) 30-1. Reply of C. G. Messerole, secretary of the Farmers' Grain Dealers' As- sociation of Iowa, dated December 14, 1906, to the circular above referred to. (Exhibit No. 2.) 30-2. Letter from the Seneca Grain, Lumber and Supply Company, dated De- cember 14, 1900, in answer to the circular. (Exhibit No. 3.) 30-3. Statement showing shipments of grain from Iowa during January, 1906, to Lowell, Hoit & Co. (Exhibit No. 4.) Record file No. SI. — Defebaugh, J. E., editor of the American Lumberman. 31. Statement prepared for the Commission regarding the car-shortage ques- tion and the effect of same as related to the lumber trade, and suggesting rem- edy for present unsatisfactory conditions. 31-1. Reprint from the American Lumberman — " Call for a national recipro- cal demurrage convention." 31-2. Extracts from the American Lumberman (December 15, 1906) ; out- line of the existing unsatisfactory transportation conditions and suggested remedy for improvement ; lumber trade difficulties leading up to the call. 31-3. Various letters addressed to the American Lumberman, containing in- dorsements of reciprocal demurrage and the call for a convention. 31-4. Various letters addressed to the American Lumberman as to the gen- eral situation. 31-5. Various letters addressed to the American Lumberman, containing spe- cific complaints of car shortage and alleged discrimination in furnishing cars. 31-6. Various letters addressed to the American Lumberman making sugges- tions as to remedies for car shortage and insufficient transportation facilities. Record file No. 32. — Hostler, 8. P., president. Hostler Coal and Coke Company. 32. Letter from S. P. Hostler, dated December 20, 1906, addressed to editor Black Diamond, Chicago, 111., giving his views with regard to the need of national and State reciprocal-dmnurrage laws. (Exhibit No. 1.) 32-1. Statements showing shipments of coal to Chicago from three different mines in the Kanawha district, giving the date of shipment, date of arrival, aad the number of days in transit. CAR SHORTAGE. 487 Record file No. SS. — Thompson, 81(Uon, manager. Bureau of Railroad \eics, of the General Managers' Association, Chicago, III. 33. Letter addressed to Commissioner Hnrlnu, dated Docemlwr 24, 190G, trans- mitting following statements : Statement sliowing tlie ton mileage of 309 roads for the year 1900 up to date, increase in freiglit e«|uii>nient. and total car and engine capacity. Statement showing the numlK'r and tractive iwwer of freight engines on certain railways for 1900 and 190(5, and statement showing the number of freight cars on certain roads In 1900 and 1906. Record file No. 54. — Patten, George ir.. of the firm of Bartlett, Frazier d Carrington. 34. Statement showing the delay In delivery of ears to elevator after the dis- position order was given and time required to unload ears when placed. Record file A'o. 35. — Marcy, George E., manager, Armour Grain Company. 35. Statement showing the time required to raalce delivery of cars to elevator after di8i)08ition order had been given and time witliin which such cars were unloaded when placed. (E.\hibit No. 1.) Record file No. S6. — Stream, J. J., manager. South Chicago Elevator Company. 3G. Statement showing tiie time required to make delivery of cars to the ele- vator after disiHJsltlon order had been given and time consumetl In unloading after such cars were placed. Record file No. 37. — Rosenbaum, E. P., Rosenbaum Grain Company. 37. Statement showing the number of days taken by railroad in which to deliver cars after the dlsi>ositlon order was given and time consumed in unload- ing after such cars were placed. Record file No. 38. — Hudson, T. J., general traffic manager, lUinols Central Railroad. 38. Statement showing the number of cars tiie Illinois Central Railroad has eitlier built or purchastnl during the years lJ)03-190een moving from the bead of Lake Superior to the grain fleids during the fali. Mr. Philbin, superintendent of the Great Northern at the head of Lake Superior, testified before the Coinmission: A year ago we took back to the grain fields a good many empty cars, and still had enough cars for the outbound loading. The case was different this year. We took back very few enii)ty cars. A very small percentage of the cars have gone west empty this fall. It is a fair inference from all the testimony that the real cause of the coal .scarcity in North Dakota was such an abundance of west- bound traffic at the head of the Lakes that cars were not available in the congested state of that terminal for the carrying of coal to North Dakota — a comparatively short haul for a low-class commodity. It was suggested that the coal shortage was due, in part at least, to the presence of a tru.st or combination between dealers in coal, who fixed prices in the Northwest and refu.sed to sell to "outsiders" and " irregulars.'- That such a combination exists can not be doubted. The Conunission has gained indisputable proof of an agreement be- tween coal dealers to maintain prices and to Iwycitt all who do not so agree; but there is no evidence at all justifying the contention that this combination is chargeable with the coal shortage prevailing nor that the railroads were party in any way to such a conspiracy. GRAIN SITUATION IN THE NORTHWEST. The railroads tapping the great grain belt of the Northwest seem to have l)een overwhelmed by this year's crop, although, in fact, the crop scarcely exceeded that of the year 1005 in volume, nor did it equal that oi at least one other preceding year. 490 CAB SHORTAGE. — Fifty million bushels of grain, as nearly as can be estimated, re- main on the farms or in the country elevators of North Dakota. But 38 per cent of the crop has been shipped. The country or line eleva- tors at a large number of country stations are full. Some of these reached their capacity as early as September and still contain the gi'ain they then held. Thousands of bushels of wheat are lying at this time covered with snow in open bins built beside the railroad track. The farmer can not sell because the country dealer can not buy. The country dealer can not buy because the country elevator is already full. The country elevator remains full because the rail- road has not moved the grain from the country elevator to the termi- nal elevator. The terminal elevators at Duluth, Superior, and Min- neapolis, which act as great reservoirs for the line elevators, are almost empty, and at no time during the season have they been filled to more than one-third of their capacity. This unfortunate chain of conditions has involved financial loss to a not inconsiderable percentage of the population of the Northwest. It is a loss which begins with the farmer, but includes the merchant, the grain dealer, the elevator man, the miller, and the railroad. And such loss is to be reckoned in figures computed on a basis of the re- duced price upon millions of bushels of grain, for every bushel of which there is demand. The farmer has been compelled to ask the merchant to extend his credit. The merchant, the elevator man, and the country dealer have been forced to secure new and unusual loans at the banks. The dealer who sold grain for November deliver}' has failed to keep his contract and " made a loss." Interest and insur- ance have eaten away the profit of the dealei*s, and the price of grain has fallen from 2 to 6 cents per bushel at a large number of country points. No clearer evidence could be given of the wealth of this most favored section of the country and the economic independence of its population than the simple fact that the conditions obtaining in the Dakotas and Minnesota have not amounted to a calamity. It was the testimony of the president of the Fii-st National Bank of Fargo, N. Dak., who presented to the Commission letters from 350 banks in that State showing the extent to which grain still remained in the farmers' hands, that whereas he should not be loaning the country banks a single dollar at this time of the year, he had within the last sixty days extended his credits to his correspondents to the extent of $600,000. The failure of the carriers to move wheat has had a widespread effect financially, causing a loss of interest, storage charges, and insurance, besides the loss of wheat on the ground and the loss through depreciation in price. Local jobbers are unable to pay because they are unable to collect, and the farmers are unable to find a market. If this condition was brought about by an actual shortage of cars, such defense was not presented by the railroad officials who appeared and testified, nor was it contended that the crop of this year ex- ceeded expectations or was in anv way abnormal. All the railroads of the Northwest (and some hauled more than ever before) actually moved less of this year's crop up to the time of the hearing than of the crop of 1905 during the corresponding months. These are the figures: 1905, 116.424,490 bushels; 1906, 97,104,031 bushels, a deficit in 1906 of 19,000 carloads. CAR SHORTAGE. 491 The situation last year, while not satisfactory to the shippers, did not present the distressing features that developed in 1906. Yet in the year 1906 both the (Jreat Northern and the Northern Pacific largely increased thoir tK|uipment. Notwithstanding this increased equipment, they hauled less grain, they furnished fewer cars to the line elevators, and delivered fewer at the terminals. Neither Provident Ilill, of the Great Northern, nor President Elli- ott, of the Northern Pacific, urged shortage of cars or locomotives as an excuse for their inability to handle the grain crop, but con- fessed with frankness that they were using all the cars that they could handle. Thus what appeared to the farmer as a car shortage was not such to the railroad man. To him there was a shortage m adequate terminals, double tracks, side tracks, yards, and low grades. The problem, as stated by him, was not that of securing more cars, but of securing facilities adequate to meet the volume of business which had so greatly increased as to have exhausted the capacity of the entire facilities of the road. President Elliott said that in attempting to handle the freight oflfered thev were trying to force a 3-inch stream through a 1-inch nozzle. " The railroads have more business than they can handle." President Hill declared that the railroads of the country, as a whole, " have not kept in sight of the country's growth; " that his road, as well as many others, was endeavoring to bore a 1-inch hole with a half-inch auger. The Government of this country [said President Hill] and its growth and its business is against a stone wall so high that it can not see the top of it. No man can see the top of it to-day. I have looked everywhere, turned everywhere, to see what can be done. During the time from 1895 to 1905 the business of the country, the tons moved 1 mile, increased 110 per cent," and the facilities, the increase of facilities for doing the business and handling the miles, in- creased 20 per cent in ten years, or 2 per cent per annum. But of that 20 per cent three-fourths of it was new mileage that was built In sections of the country that added to the congestion of the old. Now I think, and I have discussed this question with a numl)er of the most Intelligent railroad men that I know — I have asked them how much additional mileage should bo built to absolutely relieve the country from the situation and difficulty It is laboring under, the unreasonable delay of freight There has always to be some delay, but not an unreasonalile delay. They put the ne<'essary mileage, some as high as 50 per cent Well, that is out of the ques- tion. But men who have taken up the question and thought about it and tried to work it out win say anywhere from 25 to 33 per cent Now, 25 per cent of new mileage would be 55.000 miles, and If that is to be built In five years It would take 11,000 miles a year. But you would have to add one-third of the mileage for terminal and passing tracks. Add 33 per cent to 55.000 and it makes 7.3.333 miles. Now, 73,000 miles additional would not be any more than is actually necessary, because I have distriltuted it over five years, and in five years, if we are to have crops at all and if we don't stand still, the allowance is altogether too small. I do not think the new mileage, the new equipment and terminal facilities could be produced for less than $75,000 a mile of main track, which would amount to $5,500,000,000, or a yearly average of $1,100,000,000. Now that Is what Is necesssary to move this stuff, to move the busineas of this cout^try, and It Is not any more than Is necessary, but it is .30 per cent or 40 per cent of the cost of the civil war. and it Is more money than the T'nited States can raise. That is the stone wall we are up against and foresight does not look forward far enough to get a glance of It We are up against It until it is solved. The testimony of all the railroad officials of the two great trans- continental lines from the Lakes to the Pacific given in explanation of the nonmovement of grain and of coal was that they were not so 492 CAR SHORTAGE. '^ much unable to furnish cars and locomotives as they were unable to handle the volume of traffic which was offered them, and in this respect they did not regard their condition as unique. Theirs was a plea in confession and avoidance. They were engaged in great enterprises of improvement which would do much toward relieving the situation another season. They could suggest no remedy for the conditions prevailing save such a scheme of multiplying tracks and enlarging terminals as would permit a freer movement of trains. Many credible witnesses who appeared at both Minneapolis and Chicago gave testimony that a great and immediate improvement in transportation service in the Northwest might be effected by a change in the methods of use of pr&sent equipment without waiting for the enormously costly and practically unattainable improvements suggested by railway officials. The Commission was told of loaded cars standing from two to twenty days at the points of origin; of empty cars lost in congested terminals or lying unused, sometimes in solid trains, for equal lengths of time; of engines broken down from overwork; of trains torn in two by heavy loads; and of train crews working extremely long houi^s without rest although making only ordinary mileage. Grain receivers at Minneapolis and Duluth presented long lists of loaded cars that had been twenty or more days in moving 250 miles, and that at Duluth had again been delayed days and even weeks in switching after arrival. All the officials and employees of the Great Northern and Northern Pacific roads giving testimony agreed in saying that engines were not loaded too heavily and that a lightening of train loads would not aid them to give better service. Yet one of these same officials also tes- tified that any increase in train tonnage would be likely to be fol- lowed by the breaking of trains, and another added strength to the conclusion that tonnage rather than speed is the result sought by tes- tifying that from ten to fifteen days is a reasonable time for a car of dead freight to move 350 miles passing though two division points. Vice-President Pennington, of the " Soo " road, took direct issue with this theory of railroading, saj-ing that in periods of congestion he found the wise plan to be to reduce train tonnage, thus making better speed, increasing engine mileage, and actually moving more tons of freight in a month without increasing the equipment. Sim- ilar testimony was given by a number of experienced railroad men at the Chicago hearing. Two theories of railroad operation were thus brought into opposition. To many witnesses at both Minneapolis and Chicago it was ob- vious that if cars were made to move faster and were kept moving their efficiency would be greatly increased. Car shortage, in other words, may result as much from lack of wise methods in handling the cars which a company possesses as from a deficiency in the num- ber of cars or a lack of tractive power. If engines are made to haul their maximum, it is manifest that their capacity is limited to the highest grade over which they are compelled to pass. If trains are made up of so large a number of loaded cars that the engine is re- duced to its minimum speed, these cars during their time of transit are withdrawn from the general car supply. From the statistics pre- sented it would appear that the policy of hauling maximum loads on long hauls is one that produces dazzling figures of ton mileage CAR SHORTAGE. 493 which should greatly gratify the railroad stockholder did not the troublesome problem arise of the carrier's duty to render prompt service and make the fullest possible use of the railway and its facili- ties. Maximum tonnage and maximum service are not necessarily equivalejits. A railroad which lives by virtue of a public grant and the exercise of quasi public powers is primarily obligated to discharge its functions with an eye to the welfare of the public which it serves and to avoid anv policy of operation which, no matter how profit- able to the stocknplder, may result injuriously to its dependent com- munities. The inquiry into car shortage, so far as it affected the movement of grain in the Northwest, justihes these conclusions: 1. The Great Northern and Northern Pacific roads did not suffer by reason of diversion of their cars to other roads; the balance be- tween these and other railroads was in favor of the Great Northern to the extent of 2,000 cars and of the Northern Pacific to the extent of 6,000 CATS. 2. Both roads had more equipment than they had last year, when cars were furnished more promptly, better time was made, and less complaint was made by shippers. 3. There was less evidence of inability to supply cars for loading at comj>etitive points than at noncompetitive points. 4. Preference was shown to classes of freight calling for a long haul. 5. The elevators at terminals made no delays in freeing equipment. 6. From the standpoint of public service the best possible use of equipment is not secured by a policy of operation which subordinates time of transportation to tonnage transported. 7. Improvements under way and contemplated will greatly enlarge the capacity of the roads to handle their growing volume of freight, but such improvements will not relieve the needs of the Northwest unless the roads pursue a policy of operation aimed specifically to meet the needs of the grain raiser. CHICAGO HEARING. The evidence taken at Chicago related to conditions at such widely separated points as San Francisco, Galveston, New Orleans, Chicago, the West Virginia coal fields, the grain fields of Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, and Oklahoma, and the lumber-producing regions of Oregon, Washington, and the various Southern States. Dealers in coal, grain, and luml)er, whose operations extend throughout the country, were present to testify, and all told the same story of failure of transportation facilities and resulting commercial embarrassment and loss. It was shown that mines in several States have been closed or have operated to only a portion of their capacity. for lack of car service to carry away the coal, just as elevators in North Dakota have been closed for lack of cars to take away their wheat and bring in coal. Testimony as to conditions in the Southwest showed that in Indian Territory and Oklahoma wheat and cotton are lying on the ground at the railway stations exposed to the elements, while the S. Doc. 333. 5»-2 32 494 CAR SHORTAGE. terminal at Galveston, to which this ^ain and cotton should go, is so congested Avith loaded cars that ships in the harbor are greatly delayed in securing cargoes. Immediately prior to the hearing at Chicago inquiries were ad- dressed on behalf of the Commission to grain dealers at 175 Iowa towns, asking for a st^atement of conditions during the present crop year and the eifect of failure of car service, if any, upon financial returns to grain buyers and farmers. At the hearing replies to these inquiries were received from 150 towns. These replies were prac- tically imanimous in saying that the car supply is fair at competi- tive points. At noncompetitive points, however, much complaint of failure of car service is made, the estimates of losses from these causes made by the dealers running from $500 to $5,000 each for the present crop year. It is of course evident that these losses must finally be borne by the farmers, as in bidding for grain the dealer=5 necessarily take into account all difficulties and expenses of storing and marketing the grain. The inference raised by these replies, that the railroads discriminated in favor of competitive points, is strengthened by direct testimony to that effect from witnesses whose duties require that they shall know the conditions throughout the State of Iowa. Slowness of movement of cars after being loaded is also cause of complaint from many of these Iowa points. Time of movement of loaded grain cars from Iowa points to Chicago was shown to be from two to twenty-five days. Very few cars reached Chicago in so short a time as two days, and very few consumed as much as twenty-five days. The bulk of the movement seems to take from four to eight days, yet many cars were from ten to eighteen days from Iowa to Chicago. Complaint is made that much damage to grain is caused by slow movement, especially to corn, which heats and spoils. A few replies from points in Illinois to the same questions sent to Iowa were also received. These shoAv that conditions are much alike in the two States. The great grain dealers of Chicago repeated this complaint of slowness of movement of grain to their elevators, both in the jour- ney to the city and in the switching operations after reaching the city. To this complaint these grain merchants added that shipments of grain from Chicago to Atlantic ports are greatly delayed in start- ing for lack of car service, and are again subject to such unprece- dented delays before reaching the ship's side that the selling of gram on contract for delivery at the seaboard is greatly interfered with. Representatives of the lumber mills of the entire country as well as of the retail lumber dealers told the same story. This industry, which pays to the railroads a total of over $170,000,000 a year in freights, seems to be an especial sufferer from the prevailing lack of car service. At every point mills find it impossible to run to ca- pacity for the reason that they are unable to move their products. Mills of the Southern States, as well as of Oregon and Washington, are working short time or closed down entirely, while building op- erations in many States are delayed for lack of lumber. All this is a serious loss to owners and employees, and in some cases the testi- mony went so far as to show that failure to secure needed transporta- tion facilities has placed substantial concerns of fair financial strength in danger of bankruptcy. CAB SHORTAGE. 495 Testimony received at Chicago and at Minneapolis, as well as re- ports reaching this Commission from various other points, gives rea- sonable basis for the statement that the competition for cars between shippers is being used by minor employees of many railroads as a means of petty gi'aft. At the Minneapolis hearing the notable feature was the fact that railway managers and shippers were in substantial agreement in their testimony as to the failure of the railways to measure up to the de- mands of the communities dependent upon them. Such conflict as api)ears in the testimony relatas to the responsibility for an ad- mittedly insufficient service on the part of the railroads reaching Min- neapolis and Duluth from the Northwest. At Chicago no such agreement appears in the testimony as to the service rencliered by the railways reaching that city. Tne railway managers were generally of the opinion that their roads were measur- ing up to the requirements of the shippers with reasonable succe.ss. The testimony of shippers of grain, coal, lumber, and other commodi- ties, however, told oi failure to secure cars when needed and of slow- ness of movement of cars when once secured and loaded, A fair conclusion from this conflict in the testimony appears to be that railroad managers and shippers have widely varying ideas as to what constitutes satisfactory service by a common carrier. The testimony showed such delays to loaded cars in being switched to points of unloading in Chicago and in passing through Chicago, for shipment out to otlier cities, as would explain much oi the failure of car service in that territory. Figiires submitted by the largest receivers of grain at Chicago show that the average length of time required for switching loaded cars to the elevator after notice of des- tination is received by the railroad is from three and one-half to five days, and for carload freight to ha switched through Chicago takes from eight to fifteen days. While several of the railroads offering testimony at Chicago and Minneapolis showed that they had been unable to secure cars and locomotives from builders as rapidly as they desired, only one road of those testifying had undertaken to build its own equipment. The Chicago, Milwaukee and St. Paul Railway during the current calen- dar year to Deceml)er 1 built for itself ad locomotives, representing an increase in its equipment of 5^ per cent, and 4,000 freight cars, representing a net increase in its equipment of 8.04 per cent. And this was done with a plant costing $1,500,000. PROPOSED REMEDIES. Shippers generally demand that some remedy shall he found for the unfortunate condition which prevails. Those proposed vary from the all-inclusive proposition of Mr. Hill that the railroads of the country must invest over $5,000,000,000 for the enlargement of facilities upon roads now existing to the enactment of a law by Con- gress which shall compel the payment by railroads of a jjenalty for each day's delay in furnishing cars and in transporting cars after loading. Between the^^^e two extremes are various propositions involving either concerted action by the railroads, new legislation, or the 496 CAB SHORTAGE. expenditure of large amounts of money in betterments and equip- ment. There is no division among railroad men, so far as appears, as to the necessity for greatly increasing terminal facilities and for adopting new methods of handling freight at the larger terminals. The congestion of traffic arises not at points of origin, but either at points or destination or at the terminals where freight is transferred from one line to another. This congestion has its effect upon all lines of railroad reaching such terminals, for once a terminal contains more traffic than it can promptly handle and deliver, it acts as a dam which floods a constantly increasing area behind it. Reconsianment. — One of the causes of congestion at terminals is the reconsignment privilege granted on many of the principal articles of freight. This is of great vahie to shij)pers; and what is here said is not intended to in any sense lessen the extent to which such privi- lege is granted in necessary cases; but it is manifestly unjust that the consignee at the terminal should be unable promptly to receive his freight because traffic that is destined elsewhere encumbers yards and tracks. This is not a slight nor an insignificant cause for the slow movement of freight and shortage in car service, and it appears readily possible for the railroads and shippers to remedy this condi- tion it they will. A considerable body of this traffic never should require reconsign- ment. It has become a practice on the part of many shippers to bill their freight to a reconsigning point as a matter of convenience to themselves without respect to its necessity. This may be checked by the shipper of his own motion, or where the shipper desires recon- signment, and the law does not interfere therewith, the railroads may discourage it by the imposition of a reasonable reconsignment charge or by limiting drastically the time allowed on reconsignment. Or the railroads may — and the reason for such a plan is becoming em- phasized more strongly every day at all of the larger terminals — pro- vide separate terminals outside cities at which freight may be held pending determination by the shipper as to destination. It was the opinion of the leading operating official of a western road that it is impossible to put into effect a general rule limiting the time allowed for reconsignment, because competition for traffic be- tween carriers would prevent its common adoption and enforcement. It was his opinion that some superior authority should make the rule fixing such time limit, which should be imposed universally and which it should be an infringement of law to disregard. Warehousing in cars. — There are other questions affecting opera- tion upon which it would be advisable that a uniform policy should be adopted between the railroads, notably as to the time granted for the unloading of cars by consignees. This privilege, it has been contended, is one of the most fruitful causes of car shortage. Such contention, wherever examined into in this inquiry, has been found to be without support. The demurrage accounts of the railroads show that to a very limited extent do consignees avail themselves of the right to hold cars as warehouses and pay demurrage thereon. The railroads themselves, from lack of facilities, warehouses, plat- forms, and the like, are, however, compelled to make far too exten- sive use of cars for storage purposes. In one port terminal a daily average of 10,000 cars were so held during several months of last year. OAR SHORTAGE. 497 There is, it would appear, little necessity for so extensive a time limit for unloading as is often granted. The grain elevators at Chi- cago promptly met the charge tnat they were to blame for car short- age by reason of delays in unloading by showing from their books that over 90 per cent of the cars delivered to tnem were emptied the day of delivery, and that all their cai-s were unloaded within forty -eight hours, thus indicating that an allowance of greater time than two days was unnecessary. The coal men, who were allowed five davs free time, conceded that an allowance of forty-eight hours would be reasonable. If it be true that any considerable part of the shortage of car service from which the country is suffering is due to the excessive and unneceasary time allowed by railroads, it is manifestly within the power of the railroads themselves to correct such abuse. If the railroads, either through fear of losing traffic to each other or through indifference or inability, to not enact and enforce the needed rules, they will not be able to reasonably object should power to make such rules be vested elsewhere. It is to be preferred that the railroad managements should regulate themselves in such matters rather than impose the taslc upon the Government, and it is to be hoped that they will promptly fina a way to do so. Proposed car clearing hotcse. — While it has been found that per- haps all of the railroads whose representatives appeared at this hear- ing are suffering from an inability to supply cars promptly, it has not been demonstrated that, taking all roads together, there is an actual shortage of cars for the service required. It is the contention of men most conversant with existing equipment that there is a suffi- cient supply of both cars and locomotives to meet present demands were such a plan adopted as would permit a free interchange of cars between railroads ana an arbitrary and common control of all equip- ment in its handling and distribution. This is the plan suggested by Mr. John W. Midgley, of Chicago, and is commonly known as the car pooling scheme, or more properly the car clearing house. It has the indorsement of such men as Mr. Stuyvesant Fish and Mr. E. H. Harriman and is in use upon the various lines comprising the Penn- sylvania Railroad System, the New York Central lines, and the Southern Pacific System, but as yet no two systems have seen fit to adopt it and subject the control of their equipment to a common directing official. A plan that works well for a single large system should be found practicable if extended ^nerally. Its successful operation involves difficult problems, but with a realization of the imperative need for some system by which the activity of cars can be stimulated it is idle to say that the proposed plan could not be made effective. Such a plan, beneficial as it would be if carried out efficiently, must depend upon the agreement and coopei-ation of the railroads, and the time is at hand when some such modem and progressive method of further- ing railroad service must be adopted. Car per diem. — In connection with the question last treated it is to be noted, and that with some emphasis, that one of the problems which the railroad that desires to deal honestly by the public has to meet is the dishonesty of its fellow-camers. " Car appropriation " between carriers does not seem to be regarded as disnonorable nor even looked upon with great disfavor. 498 CAR SHORTAGE. It is not many years since the railroad Avhich originated freight transferred at its junctions to the cars of the connecting road. Each railroad was thus made to supply its own equipment. This was an uneconomical and time-wasting method, and so out of their own necessities and to give a prompter service the railroads devel- oped the practice which generally obtains to-day of permitting cars to pass onto the tracks of their connecting roads and making a per diem charge therefor. Under this system the present method of hauling freight over several connecting lines has made possible that great body of through transportation which is perhaps the most distinctive feature of American railroading. Experience has proved, however, that the rules governing the return of ears were evaded to such an extent that not a few railroads relied upon foreign equip- ment for their own needs. Realizing that a charge of 20 cents per day was insufficient penalty, over 100 railroads within this month have raised the per diem to 50 cents. That this will be effective in securing return of cars to the owning railroads during the few months of the year when traffic is light may be conceded, but that it will insure return during times of great need is not likely, for in such times the holder could earn per- haps ten times the amount that he would be compelled to pay by using the foreign car. A rule might be adopted fixing a minimum of 50 cents per day during those months of the year when traffic is light, and increasing this possibly fourfold during the latter half of the year, when cars are most needed. "While the railroads may fix the price that shall be charged for the use of their cars by other roads, it may become advisable for the pro- tection of those roads which, realizing their duties as common car- riers, furnish themselves with adequate equipment that power be vested in this Commission to make rules governing the interchange of cars and that Congress also enact a penal law under which rail- roads may be punished for confiscation of foreign equipment. It is submitted that the carriers themselves can not deal with this problem by raising the per diem charge without seriously limiting the extent and utility of through transportation, a contingency that would de- moralize the business of the country. That this matter of securing the return of cars to their owners is not one to be regarded indiffer- ently is made evident by the fact that railroads having 10 per cent of the total mileage in one of the States rely " entirely for equipment upon foreign cars. Reciprocal car demurrage. — The most generally advocated remedy for the failure on the part of carriers to furnish cars when demanded is that now generally .known as " reciprocal car demurrage." This phrase means, in a word, that carriers shall be penalized upon failure to furnish cars demanded, and the phrase arises out of the universal railroad practice of imposing a per diem penalty when a car is held for unloading beyond a certain fixed number of days. " It is but equitable," the shipper urges, " that if the railroad may charge me for holding his car because that car is needed by it in the conduct of its business that I should be permitted to charge it a stated sum per day when it fails to deliver to me a car which is necessary to the conduct of my business." CAR SHORTAfiR. 499 The carrier disavows any intentitui u> profit bv the delay of the consignee in unloading his freight, l)ut justifies its demurrage rule upon the ground that only by such charge can the consignee be led l)roniptly to free equipment. The shipper in turn urges that such reciprocal demurrage as might l)e exacted would not compensate for the loss of the car at the time needed, but is intended rather to stimu- late the railroad into more promptly providing the car which it is its legal duty to furnish. Some commercial bodies, advocating this general principle, favor the enactment of a law by Congress dealing directly with the sub- ject, while others favor an enlargement of uie powers of the Inter- state Commerce Conunission under which this Dody shall have au- thority to make proper anil necessary rides, which may be enforced through the courts under penal provisions similar to those now incor- porated in the act to regulate interstate commerce. Each method of j>rocedure has been followed in the legislation of the States. The statute of Texas is an illustration of one method, and the rules framed by the conunissions of I^uisiana, Florida, Mississippi, North Carolina, and Vivginia are illustrations of the other. It is to us evident and beyond all controversv that the difficulties with which the business of transportation is anected in this country at the present time would not be overcome by the enactment of a reciprocal demurrage bill alone if such measure merely provided for punishing the railroad for nonplacing of cars or nonmovement thereof. The problem is one much deeper and much broader than a mere lack of cai*s and engines. No doubt an inadequate supply of these facilities is the cause of all the troubles which beset the ship- ping public on certain lines. But these instances are few. The problem of car shortage is one in which is involved every factor in railroading — the construction, the operation, the maintenance, and the financing of the railroads. The inability of the shipper to secure a car may be but a symptom of a deep-seated and organic trouble. The real cause of car shortage may lie in the too conservative char- acter of the management of the road or in the unfitness and incom- petency of its operating officials. It may flow from an incompre- hension on the part of trie directors of the full duty imposed by law upon a common carrier. It may arise out of a policy in railroad operation which gives primary consideration to speculative stock operations. It may come from an inability to secure funds to so fit itself that it can discharge its duty. It may follow in a time of exceptional prosi)erity from an increase in traffic which could not reasonably have been anticipated. Or it may result from an inability to secure lalK)r and materials necessary to the j)roper enlarging of the railroad's facilities. This enumeration of causes is not exhaustive. It could not well be complete without giving consideration to many industrial and economic factors which at first glance would appear remote and unrelated. Clearlv the problem of transportation is so closely interwoven with the fabric or our conmiercial system, and so closely related and so interdependent are the various activities of our industrial life that one may not lightly say what are the multitudi- nous considerations which necessarily enter into so simple a question 'as the reason why a railroad car is not at once forthcoming when ordered. 500 CAE SHORTAGE. The enactment of a reciprocal demurrage bill will not build rail- road track, equipment, enlarge and simplify terminals, nor transform incompetent operating officials into first-class railroad men, but it might stimulate, energize, and in some cases revolutionize the methods of delinquent railroads so that they would render the service which they were created to render. This is the theory of reciprocal demur- rage. But that of itself it will enable the railroads to render ade- quate service is not demonstrated by experience. Perhaps the most serious congestion that exists at any terminal in the United States to-day is to be found in Galveston — in a State suffering seriously from car shortage, but in which there is on the statute books one of the simplest reciprocal demurrage laws to be found in the United States. In a statement by Hon. O. B. Colquitt, of the railroad commission of Texas, is found this pregnant passage : We have a law in Texas which provides that shippers may malie statutory requisition for cai-s, depositing one-fourth of the freight charge from point of origin of the freight to its destination, and when such requisition is made the car must be furnished within a specified time or else the railroad company must pay to the party making the requisition denmrrage at the rate of $25 per day. This demurrage is reciprocal, and where the shipper or the consignee does not unload such car within forty-eight hours after same is delivered demurrage at the rate of $25 a day runs against the consignee. Our court of civil appeals in suits brought by individuals for damages has held that under this law the railroad company can not be compelled to furnish cars for loading where the destination of shipment is beyond the line of the originating road. Acting under this construction of the law, the Texas rail- roads are refusing to furnish cars to be loaded when the destination of the ship- ment is beyond their line. When shipments are accepted, the cars are held at junction points, where the originating line requires loads to be transferred or their connecting line to furnish them with an empty car for every loaded car so tendered at such junction points. The result is that at junction points there are many cars tied up with loads waiting for transfer or exchange of an empty. The great quantity of commerce going to the port of Galveston from the interior of Texas, as well as from Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska, much of which is originated on railroads that terminate in the interior and have to depend on their connections reaching Galveston to make port of delivery, and the originating lines refusing to let their loaded cars go to port destinations, thus forcing the unloading of such cars at interior junction points, first pro- duced a blockade of cars at such points, and so tied up several thousand cars on side tracks in enforced idleness beyond the length of time which it would have required such cars to be transported to destination and returned. This congestion at jimction points soon extended to Galveston, where it was aided greatly by a new policy which the Texas roads had adopted of shipping cotton to the port in mixed consignments, thus necessitating the unloading and sorting of such shipments be- fore delivery could be made. Manifestly it is of little value to a shipper to be given a car if that car, when loaded, is not moved promptly to destination. Therefore the conclusion is inevitable that reciprocal demurrage alone will not insure better railroad service when the movement is over more tlian one system of railroad. Such a law or rule must be supplemented by some other rule or law under which the originating carrier may be insured of prompt return of the cars which it delivers to its connec- tions. The traffic of this country can not be moved in the fashion which* obtained in the early days of railroading, when transfers were GAB SHOBTAQE. 501 universal at junction points. "\Mien the railroad is penalized for not placing a car at a snipper's warehouse or elevator it will protect itself against the loss oi that car by refusal to permit it to pass beyond its control unless it can be given another car in its steaa, or unless some svstem is devised similar to that of the car pool under which its needs for cars may be promptly met. It will profit those who are seeking to remedy the shortage in car service by means of the imposition of reciprocal demurrage to con- sider well the decision of the United States Supreme Court in Houston and Texas Central Railroad Company v. Mayes (200 U. S., 321). This case involved the applicability of the Texas law to inter- state commerce. Mr. Justice Brown, in delivering the opinion of the court, said : While there Is much to be said in favor of laws oonii)elling railroads to fur- nish ade*iuate facilities for the trans|K)rtation of both freight and paRsengers and to reuulate the jreneral subject of si)eeent that a railroad shall furnish a certain nunil>er of cars at a specified day, regardless of every other consideratlbn except strikes and other public calamities, tran- scends the police power of the State, and amounts to a !)urden uix)n Interstate commerce. It makes no exceptions in cases of a sudden congestion of traffic and actual inability to furnish cars by reason of their temiK)rary and un- avoidable detention in otlier States or in other places within the same State. It makes no allowance for interference of traffic occasioned by wreck or other ac<'ldent upon the same or other roads. Involving a detention of traffic, the breaking of bridges, accidental fires, washouts, or other unavoidable conse- lueuce of heavy weather. ♦ • • •'• • * While railroad companies may be bound to furnish sufficient cars for their usual and ordinary traffic, cases will inevitably arise where, by reason of an unexi)ecte:ment, such a measure ought to have very full consid- eration before being enacted. It seems not improbable that if the railroads are ixMjalized by Federal legislation for failing to supply cars for intei*state conmierce, the local commerce of the States in times of stress may be wholly neglected by the carriers in order to avoid such penalties, unless the Federal legislation is promptly fol- lowed by State legislation of the same nature. Such legislation with- out providing also for the compulsory interchange of cars would tend to compel carriei*s to keep all their cars- on their own tracks in order to avoid demurrage peiuilties, and thus break up the advantages now enjoyed by shifvpers of throu|!:h transportation. Some railroad men of prominence appearing berore us seemed to think that the more effective regulation of the interchange of cars by carriers would of itself go far toward remedying the present car shortage. There seem to l)e strong reasons for thinking that the pro])osed car pool or car clearing house would result in a more effective car service. If some such adjustment can not be reached by the companies them- selves, it may be that legislation will become desirable and necessary. INDEX. VOLUME I. Testimony taken at — T*m^ Minneapolis, Minn., Dooember 17, inOG 6-02 Minneapolis, Minn.. I)e<-eml>or 19, 1906. 1»4-:M)7 Chicago, 111., Docemlwr 20, 190G 308-4:{6 Chicago, HI., December 21, 1906 436-479 Anderson, M. C 376 Barr, W. B __ 449 Bell, F - 147 Berrv, A. L 444 Biddle. W. B 311 Billings, E 173 Blair. M. S ._ -^ 98 Blanchard. E. C 43 Bowen, L. W ^^ !___ 155 Boyd, E. B J li 463 Bradley. James 460 Carlblom. A. M ' 175 Cockey, W. P 105 Costello, W. J 94 Curry. H. M 279 Daly. John M 349 Defebaujih. .T. E 423 De Veau. James 280 Dickinson. F. H 126 Dieson. A. O '. Z- 68 Dooley, M. J — - Z . 130 Earl, H. G 412 Egeland, A. E .'_ 129,135 Elliott Howard 281 Emerson. G. H 278 Grover, H. S 166 Harris. I. H 121 Harwood. F. H ^ 469 Hawley, A. H ^ 257 Heiner, E. E &i Hill, J. J 2»l Holland. W. G 31 Horn, H. J 216,271 Hostler, S. P 430 Hotchkl8.s. G. W 441 Hudson, T. J . 476 Jamme. L. T 6,276 Kassebaum. A. S —— ... Ill Kelley. F. A 197 Krutschnitt, J_ 882 Larson, D 143 605 506 INDEX. Lavalley. J. L 198 Ix)ftus, G. S 253 McCanna, C. D 125 McKenna, E. W 321 Major, O. G 26 Marcy, G. E 457 Midgley, J. W 336 Moore, H. B 12 Patten, George W- ^ 452 Pennington. E 244 Phelan, J. E i 179 Philbln, D. M 03,81 Powers. J 177 Richards, I. B 271 Rosenbaum, E. F . 473 Sanford, C. W 331 Saunders, E. N 76 Slade, G. T 200 Silencer, George 24 Stickney, W. M 415 Stream, J. J 461 Swanson, A. E 112 Thompson, Slason 436 Thornton, C. H 193 Vigness, R. M 132 Warner, J. M 407 Weiser, E. J 118 White, C. P 72 Willard, D 396 Winter, G. B 267 u