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FOURTEENTH 
 
 R E P O R T 
 
 FROM 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT 
 
 WITH THE 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 
 
 AND APPENDIX. 
 
 Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 
 14 March 1838. 
 
 [ Vrice 6cl. ] 
 
 202. 
 
L ii ] 
 
 t 
 
 Luna:, 2"]* die Novembris, 1837. 
 
 Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Administration 
 of the Rehef of the Poor, under the Orders and Regulations issued by the Commissioners 
 appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act. 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee C( 
 
 Lord John Russell. 
 , Mr. Fazakerley. 
 
 Mr. Richard Walker. 
 Mr. Poulett Scrope. 
 Mr. Baines. 
 Mr. Boiling. 
 Mr. Lister. 
 
 Sir Thomas Fremantle. 
 
 Mr. Barneby. 
 
 Mr. Liddell. 
 
 Mr. Estcourt (Devizes). 
 
 of Twenty-one Members : 
 Mr. Ward. 
 
 Lord Viscount Howick. 
 
 Mr. Wakley. 
 
 Mr. Villiers. 
 
 Mr. Miles (Somerset). 
 
 Mr. Law Hodges. 
 
 Mr, Chichester. 
 
 Mr. Slangy. 
 
 Mr. Freshfield. 
 
 Mr. John Fielden 
 
 Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records. 
 Ordered, That Five be tlie Quorum of the Committee. . 
 
 Jovh; 8" die Februarii, 1838. 
 
 Ordered, That power be given to the Committee to report the Minutes of the Evidence 
 taken before them from time to time to The House. 
 
 THE REPORT p. iii 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 
 
 APPENDIX p. 32 
 
[ iii ] 
 
 REPORT. 
 
 THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire into the Administration 
 of the Relief of the Poor under the Orders and Regulations issued by 
 the CoMMissiONEiiS appointed under the Provisions of the Poor Law 
 Amendment Act ; and who were empowered to report tlie Minutes of 
 Evidence taken before them from time to time to The House ; — • 
 
 T TAVE taken some further Evidence, which they have agreed to report to 
 The House. 
 
 14 March 1838. 
 
 202. 
 
 160204 
 
[ iv ] 
 
 WITNESSES. 
 
 James Phillips Kay, Esq., m. d., - - - p. i 
 JVilliam Richard Dickins - - - - p. 3 1 
 
[ 1 ] 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 
 
 Martis, 13« die Martii 1838. 
 
 MEMBERS PRESENT. 
 
 Mr. Baines. 
 Mr. Bollinoj. 
 Mr. Chichester. 
 Mr. Estcourt. 
 Mr. Fielden. 
 Mr. Freshfield. 
 Mr. Hodges. 
 
 Mr. Liddell. 
 Mr. Miles. 
 Lord J. Russell. 
 Mr. Scrope. 
 Mr. Slaney. 
 Mr. Wakley. 
 
 MR. FAZAKERLEY in the Chair. 
 
 James Phillips Kay, Esq., m.d., called in ; and Examined. 
 
 4385. Chairman^] YOU are an Assistant Poor Law Commissioner? — I am. /. P, Kay, Esq. 
 
 4386. How long have you acted in that capacity ? — Since July 1835. ^- 
 4'^87. What is the district which you have now under your superintendence ? — 
 
 Norfolk and Suffolk. 13 March .838. 
 
 4388. How long have you been there ? — I went into Suffolk in August 1835 ; and 
 I succeeded Sir Edward Parry, in Norfolk, at the end of February 1836. 
 
 4389. Then you have had the superintendence of the district for about two 
 years ? — I have. 
 
 4390. Have you paid great attention to the educa,tion of children who may be 
 placed in the workhouses of the different unions ? — As early as the claims of other 
 duties connected with the formation of unions, the building of workhouses, and the 
 general administration of relief, would permit me to abstract my attention from 
 such duties, I made it a matter of j)rimary importance to observe what was the 
 nature of the education given to the children who were more permanently main- 
 tained in the work-houses. I found great deficiencies in the arrangements that had 
 been adoj)ted by the different boards of guardians, principally in consequence of 
 other duties which they had to perform ; and I applied myself to improve the dis- 
 cipline of the schools. 
 
 439 1 . What is the population of the unions that you superintend ? — I think 
 the entire population of the district may be 580,000 ; but I do not speak with 
 absolute certainty ; the population of the unions which are now in operation, and 
 have efficient workhouses, is about 540,000. 
 
 4392. In those unions do you know the number of children that aro in the 
 workhouses, or that were in the workhouses in any particular period that you can 
 speak to ? — In the month of December 1837 the number of children that were in 
 the workhoases of 35 unions, in which the workhouse arrangements were then 
 completed, was 483 boys between nine and sixteen ; 420 girls between nine and 
 sixteen ; 547 boys between two and nine ; and 450 girls between two and nine ; 
 making 1,90G children between two and sixteen, who were at that time maintained 
 and educated in 35 union workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk. 
 
 4393- t!an you describe those children so as to inform the Committee to what 
 classes they belonged ; whether they were bastard or orphan children, or children 
 of able-bodied labourers.'' — I thought it very important to ascertain how many of 
 those children were likely to be more permanently maintained in the workhouses ; 
 because it is evident that the residence of an able-bodied labourer in the work- 
 house is transient, and that the education provided for his child is not by any means 
 a matter of such great importance as the education of the children who were more 
 permanently maintained in the workhouse ; and with a view to obtain accurate 
 
 202. A information, 
 
2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P Kny, Es.j. information upon this su})jeft, 1 issued a circular on tlie 9tli of December 1837, to 
 
 the masters of workhouses, requesting that they would return to me the number 
 
 13 Maicli 18 58 bastards, orphans, chikh-en deserted by tlieir fathers, children deserted by 
 
 — ' father and mother, children of men undergoing punishment for crime, children of 
 
 persons depending upon parochial aid on account of mental or bodily infirmity, 
 children of able-bodied widows resident in the union workhouses, children of able- 
 bodied widowers resident in the union workhouses, and children belonging to large 
 families of able-bodied labourers, admitted into the workhouses as a relief to their 
 parents — those being the classes which it was probable would be more permanently 
 resident than the children of able-bodied labourers. I found the numbers in that 
 week to be 443 bastards, 382 orphans, 279 children deserted by their fathers, 54 
 children deserted by father and mother, 171 children of men undergoing punish- 
 ment for crime, 1 1 0 children of persons dependent upon parochi.al aid on account 
 of mental or bodily infirmity, 144 children of able-bodied widows resident in the 
 workhouses, 36 children of able-bodied widowers resident in the workhouses, and 
 122 children belonging to large families of able-bodied labourers, admitted into the 
 workhouses as a relief to their parents ; making a total of 1,847 children in 35 
 unions, who might be expected to be more permanently maintained in the work- 
 houses than the children of able-bodied labourers. 
 
 4394. Of what ages were the children i — Of all ages between two and sixteen ; 
 besides those there were 250 infants too young for instruction, and about 00 chil- 
 dren of able-bodied parents, who w^ere resident in the workhouse at that time. If 
 the Committee desire it, I Mill give in the table. 
 
 [The Witness delivered in the mme. — F/</6' Appendix (A.)] 
 
 4395. With respect to the 122 whom you describe as the children of the 
 able-bodied, their parents were not resident in the workhouse r — They were not. 
 
 4396. The children were taken into the workhouse as a relief to the able-bodied 
 labourers ? — They were, during a certain period of transition. In Norfolk and 
 Suffolk, we first permitted the out-door allowances to large families of labour- 
 ers to continue ; and, as another step of advance, we have adopted the system 
 of taking in certain children from large families of labourers, intending that to be 
 employed as an expedient of more easily getting over a certain state of transition, 
 until we could adopt the absolute rule of relieving the labourer, by taking the 
 whole family into the workhouse. 
 
 4397. Of those classes of children, some remain a much longer time in the 
 workhouse than others, do they not ? — Certainly. In order to ascertain the periods 
 which those several classes of children remain in the workhouse, I issued another 
 circular to the masters of the workhouses, requesting to be informed what number 
 of children of both sexes, between the ages of two and sixteen, had been in 
 the workhouse less than a fortnight. I found they were 193, in the week ending 
 
 ' the 3d of January 1838. The number who had been in more than a fortnight, and 
 
 less than a month, were 223 ; the number that had been in one month, and less 
 than three, were 548 ; the number that had been in three months, and less than 
 six, were 307 ; the number more than six months, and less than a year, 275 ; the 
 number more than a year 474 ; but I must be permitted to remark in explanation 
 of this table, that it cannot be supposed to indicate what would occur after the 
 imions have been in operation for a series of years,^ because to various of those 
 classes of children the workhouse had only been recently offered as a means of 
 relief, and they had entered the workhouse only during the last summer ; the 
 number of children Avho had been maintained in the workhouses previously to last 
 summer has been very considerably less ; and as the boards of guardians gradually 
 advanced in their application of the workhouse test to various classes of paupers, 
 such classes as bastards, and orphans, and others, were admitted who had been 
 previously in the receipt of out-door relief^ so that I apprehend, after a certain 
 period has elapsed, it will be found that the children described in these tables 
 would remain much longer in the workhouse than is indicated in the table wliich 
 I now present to the Committee. 
 
 [The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix (B.)] 
 
 43q8. There are 474 in that table who have been in the workhouse more than 
 .a year ; to what class of children do they belong ? — I have no doubt that they 
 J were 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 3 
 
 were bastards, or oi'phans, or children deserted by their ])arents, or children of j, [>. Km/. iJq. 
 persons dependent on parochial aid on account of bodily or mental infirmity. ^ o. 
 
 439a. Children who have been deserted by their parents, or orphans, or bastards, * ~ 
 
 would be likely to continue to be dependent upon the parish for their mainten- '3 A'Jauli 1838. 
 
 ance, and to remain in the workhouse until such a period as they were able to 
 
 gain their livelihood out of doors? — Certainly; it appears to me that in all cases in 
 
 which children are deprived of the guardianship of their parents by physical or 
 
 legal disabilities, or by death, they must continue dependent on the parish till they 
 
 are enabled, by their own exertions, to obtain their own livelihood. 
 
 4400. At what period should you say, that generally they might be sent out 
 from the workhouse and be able to earn their own livelihood ?— In the case of 
 girls, I think, from the age of 14 to 16 they would be admitted into domestic 
 service; and the boys from 14 to 16 into farming occupations, or as servants in 
 various branches of trade, and would find employment and wages sufficient to 
 maintain them. 
 
 4401. Would children in those cases, who had no parents and no home, be able 
 to maintain themselves by independent employment so soon as the children mIio 
 have a home, and who might, by degrees, acquire the habit of employing them- 
 selves in different branches of industry ? — ^That would especially occur if there 
 were no expedient in the workhouse for the industrial training of the children ; 
 and I may be permitted to explain in what respect I conceive the condition of the 
 child who is maintained and educated in the workhouse would differ fi-om the 
 child of an independent labourer, provided no expedient were adopted for teaching 
 him such trades as would enable him to provide an independent livelihood. A 
 child out of doors, a boy, is initiated into the various occu]iations of industry ; he 
 accompanies his father to the field, and performs a gi'eat variety of work, and so, 
 by degrees, he takes his station in the employment of the district. A girl, in the 
 same way, acquires a knowledge of domestic economy ; and it is plain, that unless 
 some expedients were adopted within the union workhouses, not merely to give 
 the children skill (in the case of girls in domestic occupations, and in the case of 
 boys in various trades and employments, which are connected with their probable 
 destiny in life), they would, in the first place, not have the habits of indiistry, and, 
 in the second place, they would not have the skill which w ould recommend them 
 to employment and enable them to earn their livelihood. 
 
 4402. In order to enable those children to earn their livelihood, and to fit them 
 for occupying the different stations of life to which they may be called, whether 
 boys or girls, do you think it desirable that some general and good scheme of educa- 
 tion should be introduced into the workhouses ? — Certainly I do ; and I think that 
 the workhouse schools, as they are at present managed, ])resent many formidable 
 difficulties for conducting the religious education, the moral and the industrial 
 training of the children, and the impartation of a sufficient amount of secular 
 knowledge, suitable to their station in life, which might be overcome, probably, , 
 by other and better arrangements than those which at present exist in the work- 
 
 hou-ses. 
 
 4403. Are you acquainted with what was the system of education, or Avhether 
 there was any system, in the old parish ]K)or-houscs or workhouses before 
 this new law was introduced ? — The parish })Oor-liouse.s were, for the most ])art 
 (and I think that the exceptions were so rare that they may scared}^ be accounted 
 to have existed), scenes of the utmost iniquity and disorder; the cln'ldren, infants 
 as well a.s those of more advanced age, adult paupers, often of the very Avorst 
 character, dissolute women, and the aged and infiiin, were all in the same apart- 
 ment, in the j)arochial workhouses ; there was no workhouse dress ; they were living 
 there generally in filth and idleness, the children contracting the liabits of 
 paupers — being contaminated with the vicious dispositions of the persons with 
 wliom they came in contact. There was no schoolmaster at all, and I think 
 the inevitable consequence of a child being trained in such a situation was, that 
 he must become, for a time, and probably for a very long period of his life, 
 dejx-nflent upori the rate-payers. When we have emptied the parochial workhouses, 
 and brought the children and other paupers to the union workhouses, we have 
 generally found that the childreji were infested with veiniin, often covered with the 
 itch ; and very rc^cently it occurred to me to inquire from one of the Scotch 
 teachers, who has been introduced into Norfolk, in what condition some of 
 the children who had been brought from the parochial workhouse to the union 
 
 A 2 workhous® 
 
4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kay, Esq. workhouse were found, and he told me language could not describe liis astonish- 
 »i. D. nieiit at the brutish ignorance of the children, and at their vicious and disorderly 
 1 V, g 8 ^'"^"n^rs ; he said the only knowledge they had M'as how to pull up twitch grass, 
 13 arc 13. g^j^ J j^^^ ^^jj |.jjj.j^jpg . ]yyy^ ^Yy^^ beyoud that they had not a single idea ; 
 
 and no child in the school knew his letters. 
 
 4404. They had, in fact, received no sort of education, whether in letters or a 
 general training in habits of industry ? — Certainly. 
 
 4405. What is the state of things in the schools which have been established 
 in the workhouses ? — I must first inform the Committee, that we have en- 
 countered very formidable difficulties in attempting to improve the workhouse 
 schools ; it has been found extremely difficult to procure eligible teachers ; appli- 
 cations have been made to some of the London schools, for example, the Central 
 National School at Westminster, and other schools, and very great difficulty 
 indeed has been experienced in procuring teachers from those schools ; so that, in 
 the first instance, in many of the workhouses we have been obliged to be content, 
 for a time, with the services of provincial teachers ; we have endeavoured to give 
 them a larger amount of skill, by sending them, especially, to the industrial schools 
 in the neighbourhood of London ; I refer to the schools of the Children's Friend 
 Society at Hackney- Wick, where boys are instructed, and at Chiswick, where 
 girls are taught industrial occupations, or to the school of Lady Noel Byron at 
 Ealing, where similar pursuits are followed ; and also peculiar care has been 
 bestowed upon one or two of the schools in Suffolk, Avith a view to render them 
 model schools, in which the schoolmasters of other workhouses might receive 
 instruction, particularly in the industrial processes that are employed, and so, by 
 degrees, even with the assistance of the provincial teachers, many of the schools 
 have been improved; but, I felt that as the greater part of those teachers 
 have not had a sufficiently long training in any of the more correct methods 
 of instruction which are pursued in the model schools, that it was very desir- 
 able to introduce into the district some teachers Avho had received a complete 
 training in schools, the success of which was acknowledged, and for that purpose 
 one of my colleagues, Mr. Tufnell, and myself, visited Scotland last summer, for 
 the purpose of becoming acquainted with the methods of instruction that are 
 pursued in the sessional schools of the Church of Scotland, in Edinburgh, and the 
 Glasgow Normal Seminary, which is also conducted ■ under the sanction of the 
 Church of Scotland ; since that period six teachers have been engaged for different 
 unions in Norfolk and Suffolk, and three have been employed in organizing the 
 different schools throughout the country, so that many of the schools are cer- 
 tainly very superior to those which I was acquainted with in the incorporations. 
 
 4406. In those schools what have you been able to do, with respect to training 
 the children in habits of industry ? — As education is chiefly to be regarded by the 
 Poor Law Commissioners as the means of avoiding the ultimate dependence upon 
 the rate-payers of the children, great attention has been paid to the industrial train- 
 ing of the children; I could not select a better example of what is done in the indus- 
 trial training of children, than is afforded by the school in Barham workhouse, in 
 Suffolk, belonging to the Bosraere and Claydon Union ; the girls in that union work- 
 house are instructed, not merely in knitting and sewing, Avhich is the common indus- 
 trial instruction of schools, but they are also taught to cut out the clothes of the 
 paupers in the workhouse ; they scour their rooms and make their beds ; they wash 
 their own linen and the boys', iron it and make it up ; and the board of guardians are 
 about to make arrangements to have the whole cooking of the establishment con- 
 ducted by the girls, under the superintendence of a reputable and discreet female in 
 the kitchen ; and those employments of the girls are now becoming common in 
 the workhouse schools throughout my district ; the boys have also been engaged 
 in breaking up a piece of ground outside the workhouse, which is, as soon as it is 
 prepared, to be allotted to them in gardens, which they daily cultivate, whenever 
 the weather will permit, for two or three hours ; the master is provided with books 
 on gardening (the schoolmistress is to be provided with books on frugal cookery), and 
 it will be his duty to instruct the boys in gardening, as a branch of industry more 
 allied to industry than any thing that we can well select connected with workhouse 
 discipline ; the boys have also been employed in making and mending the clothes 
 of the workhouse, in making the shoes of the workhouse, in rough carpentering 
 work, for they have made the barrows which they use in their gardening ; they 
 have also been employed in basket-making, mat-making, platting straw hats, and 
 
 other 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 5 
 
 other occupations of a similar kind, which have a two-fold object, one to give them /. P. Kav, E»q. 
 skill in such a branch of industry as may enable them to obtain employment, and ° 
 to support themselves by their own exertions in after life, and the other for the ' ~" 
 purpose of enabling them, without the expenditure of their earnings, to contribute '"^ ^larch 1 3 . 
 to the comfort of their own households simply by their skill, as, for example, in 
 doing any rough wood- work about their cottage, putting up a shelf or making a 
 box, or such other things as those. 
 
 4407. In those respects you probably have made a great advance in education, 
 as compared \nth the system which prevailed in the former poor-houses and work- 
 houses ? — I do not know any single workhouses of the incorporations in which any 
 thing was done beyond teaching the children to weave sacking, to spin thread or 
 worsted, or some occupation of that kind, which was more suited to a manufactur- 
 ing district ; but nothing has been done, so far as I can perceive, in the old work- 
 liouses, to train the children in labour connected with the pursuits of husbandry. 
 
 4408. This system of education, which you say you have succeeded in intro- 
 ducing in some of the unions under your superintendence, appears to meet nearly 
 all the objects which one would propose to oneself in educating children so 
 circumstanced ; still you say in the workhouses you met with impediments M'liich 
 would prevent your accomplishing the system of education which you think the 
 best ; be so good as to describe the nature of the impediments ? — Those impedi- 
 ments are encountered in a very great degree in the other departments of the 
 education which is given to the children, in the religious instruction, the moral 
 training, and in the discipline of the school, and in the methods that are pursued 
 in giving them secular knowledge suited to their station in life. In all those forms 
 of instruction we find great difficulties arising, first, from the want of a sufficient 
 number of children in each workhouse to provide the classification that is neces- 
 sary to success in a school. Then, secondly, it is very difficult, in the best regu- 
 lated workhouse, to prevent a certain amount of association between the children 
 and the adult paupers, many of whom are not persons whom it would be desirable 
 to place as models for the imitation of children. There is a good deal of inter- 
 ruption to the discipline of a school, also, from the admission of children belonging 
 to able-bodied labourers, whose residence in the house is commonly very transient. 
 I think also that educating children in a workhouse, and not in a school separately 
 from the workhouse, is objectionable, on this ground, that the child conies, by 
 association with what is occurring within the workhouse, to deem itself in some 
 sort a pauper, and as the child's dependence upon the rate-payers is in no respect 
 a consequence of its improvidence, or of any other circumstance which usually 
 produces the dependence of paupers, it appears to me that it should not encounter 
 any risk of losing its self-respect, which will probably be one of the surest 
 guarantees for independence of character in after life. There is also a very great 
 difficulty in the workhouse schools, as at present conducted, in supplying a suffi- 
 cient number of well-qualified teachers, and in inducing them, from the present 
 amount of remuneration that can be given in the unions, to reside in the work- 
 house, to conform to all the discipline, and to disregard the opportunities which 
 are affi)rded them of bettering their condition by becoming schoolmasters in 
 some other departments out of the workhouse. All these difficulties, I think, will 
 be found to j)resent formidable obstacles to the success of schools as at present 
 conducted in the union workhouses. 
 
 4409. Is there not some difficulty also in providing sufficient space for the 
 children, whether for their occupation within doors or without doors ? — To most 
 of the workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk we have attached a certain portion of 
 land ; the children are out in the garden during three or four hours daily ; that 
 difficulty might, I think, generally be obviated, because I never found any reluc- 
 tance in any board of guardians to do whatever was necessary with leference to 
 the industrial training of tlie (children ; I should much rather that the treatment 
 of the children was different from that which it necessarily is at present in connex- 
 ion with the ordinary discipline of the workhouse, and I should very much 
 
 rather that they lived in a school than that they lived in a workhouse. / 
 
 4410. Finding that the arrangements within the workhouse cannot be made 
 in a manner that is |)erfectly satisfactory, what would you j)ro])ose as the best mode 
 in which those children sliould be j)rovided for and educated? — I think if the 
 unions were combined for the ])ur])0se of supporting county schools, that a much 
 more efficient system of instruction and training might beado])ted in those county 
 schools, and at considerably less expense to the unions than the inetru<?tion which 
 
 202. * A 3 is 
 
6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kay, Es(i. is now given in the workhouse is maintained ; for in connexion with that subject," 
 M.D. J made some calculations, founded upon the experience which I had of what has 
 
 ~ been done in the workhouse schools in Norfolk and Suffolk, which, with the per- 
 
 13 March 183 . j^^jggion of the Committee, I will state : I found that it was almost impossible 
 to obtain a skilful schoolmaster and schoolmistress for a lower salary than 35 /. or 
 40/. for a schoolmaster, and 20/. for a schoolmistress, besides their maintenance, 
 and the provision of a separate apartment in the workhouse, and the furniture for 
 that apartment. When the whole arrangements in Norfolk and Suffolk are com- 
 pleted, there will be 39 unions, and the cost of the salaries for the schoolmasters 
 and schoolmistresses in the workhouses of those unions would be, for 39 school- 
 masters, at 35/. per annum,!, 3 G5/. ; for 39 schoolmistresses, at 20/. per annum, 780/.; 
 for the maintenance of the schoolmasters, 608/. 8 a-. ; for the maintenance of the 
 schoolmistresses, 608/. 8*., giving a total of 3,361/. lO.y. ; besides some outlay 
 which must be encountered for either the wages or the maintenance of shoe- 
 makers and tailors, who are employed in assisting the schoolmasters, and are 
 either maintained in the workhouse upon the ordinary rations, at the cost of 7/. 16s. 
 per annum, or would receive wages to a larger amount ; besides those expenses, 
 there must be a very considerable outlay in each school for Bibles, Testaments, 
 lesson-books, apparatus for gardening and various other tools, and for fitting up a 
 separate wash-house and laundry for the girls, and for fitting up the schoolmasters' 
 and schoolmistresses' apartments, which outlay I calculate would amount to about 
 4,700/. more for the fitting up of the sovenil schools. If in Norfolk and Suffolk, 
 four county schools were provided and much larger salaries were given, and a more 
 expensive maintenance also permitted to the schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, 
 the following scale of salaries Avould provide a clear saving of 2,000/. a year in the 
 expenditure of the unions of those two counties ; namely, four schools containing 
 400 or 500 children each ; for those four schools, four principal schoolmasters with 
 their wives, and four principal schoolmistresses at a salary of 120/. per annum, 
 making 480/. ; the maintenance of those 208/. per annum, the very highest amount 
 that could be anticipated ; four assistant schoolmasters and four assistant school- 
 mistresses 240/. per annum, the salaries being 60/. for a couple, the maintenance 
 208/. per annum ; then supposing there were in those schools four tailors, at wages 
 ' of IO5. per week, with their maintenance also, the expense would be 1567. 45. ; 
 
 shoemakers at the same wages and maintenance, 156/. 4*. ; laundresses at the 
 same wages and maintenance, 112/., making a total of 1,560/. ; I suj)pose also 
 that there would be four chaplains with 60/. per annum each, 240/. ; making 1800/. 
 as the total annual expense for the salaries and maintenance of schoolmasters and 
 schoolmistresses in the four county schools, which would be a saving of 2,000/. per 
 annum. 
 
 4411. Which saving would go towards any expense that might be incurred by 
 building and fitting up those four county schools which you would propose ? 
 —Yes. 
 
 441 2. It being your opinion, that a very good system of education cannot be 
 contrived or permanently carried on in the existing workhouses, and proposing as 
 you do, the substitution of county schools, what is the character of education 
 which you would provide for the children ? — I think that great attention ought 
 to be paid to the religious instruction, to the moral training, of the children ; that 
 they ought to be carefully trained in industry, in the manner which I have 
 attempted to describe, and that, as they are cut off from the ordinary sources of 
 secular knowledge which are open to the labourer's child, there should be more 
 attention paid to the means of giving them secular knowledge suited to their 
 station in life than is commonly given in the parochial schools of the country. 
 
 44)3. Have you examined any schools carried on upon the system which you 
 approve of, and which have been tried for some time, so as to enable you to speak 
 from experience whether any of the effects which you think desirable have been in 
 any degree produced? — Certainly I have, both in Scotland and in this country, 
 and particularly there are certain industrial schools in the neighbourhood of 
 London, which seem to me to be peculiarly worthy of observation and imitation in 
 the parochial unions throughout the country ; I refer especially to the schools of 
 the Children's Friend Society, in which deserted children and juvenile offenders 
 from the streets of London are trained, in industry especially, in order that they 
 may afterwards be apprenticed in the colonies ; and not only the reports of that 
 society and my communications with some of its most intelligent' members, ])ut 
 personal observations in the schools, lead me to believe that a system of instruc- 
 
 ■ tion 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 tion similar to that pursued in the schools of the Children's Friend Society would j. p. Kan, INq. 
 
 be exceedingly important in the county schools which I propose should be provided 
 
 for the orphan, deserted and other children who are more permanently maintained 
 
 in the workhouses. 13 March .838. 
 
 4414. Where is the school of the Children's Friend Society conducted ? — There 
 16 one school at Hackney- Wick for boys, and another at Chiswick for girls, under 
 the patronage of the Queen and the Duchess of Kent. 
 
 4415. What effect, in your opinion, upon pauperism, which is the peculiar 
 object of our inquiry, would this sort of education be likely to have ? — I cannot 
 conceive that the children, if they were carefully trained, morally and religiously, 
 and had the means afforded them of acquiring skill in trades and habits of industry, 
 would to any great extent be dependent upon the rate-payers, especially under the 
 system in which the laM' is now administered in the country. 
 
 4416. You think that the religious and moral feelings which would be im- 
 planted by this education, and the habits of industry and the acquaintance with dif- 
 ferent occupations which they would be likely to acquire, would give them a better 
 chance of providing for themselves as independent members of the comm\inity than 
 if they were not educated at all, or educated in the same imperfect manner as here- 
 tofore ? — Certainly ; I may be permitted also to observe, that if this training in in- 
 dustry were not provided in the workhouse, it must, of necessity, be provided out 
 of the workhouse, at the cost of the rate-payers ; and I conceive that the necessity 
 for adopting the system of apprenticeship which led to so many pernicious conse- 
 quences arose out of the absence of a proper plan of industrial training in the 
 workhouses of the old incorporations and in the parochial workhouses ; I find that 
 if the same number of children were supported in other districts, in proportion to 
 the po})ulation, as are supported in workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk, that there 
 would be 46,125 children between the ages of two and sixteen in the work- 
 houses of England and Wales, and 44,6*97 children between the ages of two and six- 
 teen who belong to the classes who arc more permanently maintained in workhouses, 
 as described in the table presented to the Committee. If only one-tenth of those 
 persons, from any defect in their education, with families of the ordinary size, 
 become for six months in the year only, dependent upon the rate-payers, an 
 annual outlay of 104,000/. would be encountered ; and if the ordinary system of 
 apprenticeship which had been previously adopted in the old incorporations and in 
 the parishes were again resorted to, it appears to me quite reasonable to suppose 
 that out of 1,847 children who are now maintained in the workhouses of Norfolk 
 and Suffolk more pemianently, at least 180 must be apprenticed every year, by 
 which an ex])ense of 1,800/. in ap])rentice fees would be encountered in the work- 
 houses in Norfolk and Suffolk ; and if the same proportions obtained in other dis- 
 tricts of England and Wales, that 4,356 children would have to be apprenticed 
 annually at an annual expense of 10 /. each, or a total annual expense of 43,350/. 
 in England and Wales, for the apprenticeship of children ; all of which expense, be- 
 sides the saving in the plan of management at present pursued in the workhouse 
 schools, might, I think, be entirely avoided, by pursuing a proper system of 
 religious, moral and industrial training in schools properly maintained for that 
 purpose. 
 
 4417. Do you think that the effect of giving this education to children would 
 be to enable them to get out into service, and to obtain occupations very much more 
 easily than they otherwise would do ? — Whenever there is a skilful and atten- 
 tive master or mistress of the workhouse, the success which we have already 
 obtained in the management of the workhouse schools enables him to procure 
 situations, particularly for the girls, in domestic service, without premiums in 
 money, perhaj)s, beyond the outfit of clothes, with an orphan girl ; or in case of a 
 boy being put out for husbandry, the outfit of the clothes for the orphan boy. 
 
 441 8. In case the children were not in that manner prepared for domestic servic^e 
 4>r out-door occupation, would it not be necessary, in order to ease the parish from 
 the growing incumbrance, to have recourse to a system of apprenticeship ? — • 
 I can present the Committee with a table, showing what was done in one of the 
 best-managed incoi-porations of Suffolk, in which out-door relief has never been 
 administered, to any great extent, for a long series of years past, and in which 
 almost the oidy evil has been the extent to which the apprentice system has been 
 pursued. It has been the custom in that incorporation, to aj)prentice, not merely 
 the orphan and bastard children, but children of able-bodied Avidows and able- 
 bodied men who were in employment ; and I have here a table, wliich I should 
 
 A 4 desire 
 
8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 7. p. Kay, Esq. desire to put in, showing that the chief expenses in that incori)oration were 
 M. D. encountered by a number of the chikh-en of able-bodied men, who had to be 
 apprenticed, being admitted into the workhouse, as a relief to their parents. The 
 
 13 March 1838. table shows that the training which was pursued in the workhouse was not suffi- 
 cient to procure the cessation of the dependence of those children upon the rate- 
 payers without giving a premium, which was, on the average, 10 Z. ; and in some 
 years nearly 1,000/. has been expended in one year in this incorporation, containing 
 11,000 inhabitants, solely for the apprenticeship of children ; the average expense 
 for the last 10 years having been 330/. or 840/. a year. The table describes the 
 number of children of able-bodied men admitted, discharged, apprenticed, placed 
 in service, and who died, in each year in this incorporation ; the same facts for the 
 children of able-bodied widows, the children whose parents were disabled, orphans, 
 for deserted children, for children of convicts and the children of lunatics and 
 idiots, for every year since 1830 and 1831 up to the present period. 
 
 [The Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix (C.)] 
 
 4419. Independently of the obvious expense of apprenticeship, in giving fees, 
 what, in your opinion, are its moral effects upon the character of the apprentice, and 
 of the receiver of the apprentice? — I must distinguish between an apprenticeship 
 to trades, and an apprenticeship to husbandry. In the apprenticeship to trades, 
 it occurred under the old system that the premium chiefly formed an induce- 
 ment to persons of narrow means, to whom the premium itself was exceedingly 
 desirable as a means of escape from some temporary pressure, and who took the 
 children without any great need of their services, or without the i)arisli having 
 any great regard to the means which those persons enjoyed of promoting the 
 ■welfare of the children, by carefully training them in a trade, and thus procuring 
 the cessation of their de])endence upon the rate-payers, so that a very large pro- 
 portion of the children became dependent upon the parish to which they were ap- 
 prenticed. One of the most prominent evils of the system, and which led to 
 a large amount of chicanery in practice, was, that their dependence upon the parish 
 to which they had previously belonged, ceased by their obtaining a new settle- 
 ment. With respect to the apprenticeship to husbandry, many of the evils 
 which were encountered in the apprenticeships to trades, were encountered ; but 
 others were avoided in Norfolk and Suffolk to a very large extent : this appren- 
 ticeship was compulsory ; the occupiers received an apprentice unwillingly ; and 
 the apprentice went unwillingly to the master ; and it must be quite evident that 
 no good service or good instruction could be obtained under such circumstances. 
 In other cases where the apprenticeship was not compulsory, the very circum- 
 stance that the child was bound to the master, and the master bound to per- 
 form certain duties to the child, rendered the natural obligations of duty between 
 master and servant of less force ; and the child gave imperfect service to the mas- 
 ter, and the master imperfect instruction to the child ; so that the real objects 
 which ought to have been sought to be obtained by the apprenticeship of the 
 child, were almost altogether lost, and a great amount of evil was occasioned by 
 the system. 
 
 4420. You think, therefore, that it would be a great object to do away with 
 the necessity of compulsory apprenticeship, and to enable those children, by proper 
 training and education, to have a good chance of providing for themselves ? — I 
 believe that if a proper system of training were adopted, upon the plan submitted 
 to the Committee, or any other good plan, the necessity for apprenticing would 
 be altogether obviated. 
 
 4421. If in any particular instance you should succeed in introducing a tolerably 
 good system of education in particular workhouses, have you any security for that 
 system being permanent ? — I must say, with great regret, that I fear, without the 
 greatest personal exertion on the part of the Assistant-commissioners and some of 
 the most intelligent members of the board of guardians, that there is no existing 
 security for the maintenance of the improvements which have been obtained in 
 many of the workhouse schools ; and I greatly fear, unless the system were concen-. 
 trated into county schools, where the opportunities for observation and control 
 would be much more frequent than they can be in the present M'orkhouse schools, 
 that they must relapse to a very inefficient and unsatisfactory state again. 
 
 442-2. Is it not true, that in workhouses there are so many circumstances to 
 which the attention of the Assistant-commissioner or the guardians, or any visiting- 
 committee that piay.be appointed, is directed, that there is some fear of the par- 
 ticular 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 9 
 
 ticular object of the education of the chikh-eii being- only cursorily inquired into ? J- P-Kay, Esq. 
 
 The visiting committees do pay very considerable attention to the subject, but 
 
 they have so much besides, of pressing and urgent importance, which demands a , March 18 8 
 
 large portion of their time, besides also absorbing a great deal of their attention, and arc 1 3 . 
 
 requiring an immediate exercise of their judgment, that the schools, Avhicli aj)pear 
 
 to me to be one of the most important parts of the Avorkhouse, inasmuch as 
 
 bv efficient management of the schools we may hope to diminish the amount of 
 
 what mav be termed hereditary pauperism, have not and cannot obtain all the 
 
 attention which they deserve. 
 
 4423. In those county schools which you would propose to establish, education 
 would be the only object to which attention would be directed ? — Certainly. 
 
 4424. And you think, therefore, that there is reason to suppose, that by 
 confining the attention either of the Assistant-commissioner or any visiting body 
 that might be fixed upon, to that particular object, there would be a greater 
 security for that duty being well executed ? — Certainly. 
 
 4425. How would you propose to establish those county schools ? — I think 
 that 10 or 12 unions might be united together for the purjiose of maintaining a 
 common school, and that a board of management might be formed, by electing for 
 that purpose certain of the guardians who are most likely to pay attention to 
 duties of that kind, and who should meet, from month to month, at the school, 
 from the various unions in that district. It Avould appear to me sufficient that 
 the masters of the workhouses should visit the schools at the ordinary monthly 
 meeting, and should bring those children, whom they were directed to bring by 
 the board of guardians, for maintenance and instruction in the county scliool. 
 
 4426. How would you propose to divide the expense? — I think that is a 
 subject which is perhaps deserving of more consideration than I have given it ; 
 two plans have been proposed to me, one that the expense should bo made 
 entirely proportionate to the number of children instructed in the county school 
 belonging to the union, and the other, that it should have relation to the averages 
 of the union ; it is quite plain that the maintenance and clothing of the children 
 must be made a charge similar to the present in-maintenance charge ; the only 
 question that remains is, whether the salaries and general expenses of the esta- 
 blishment should be distributed according to the averages, or whether they should 
 be made an in-maintenance charge, similar to that which at present exists in the 
 ordinar)' workhouses. 
 
 4427. JNIr. Hod(]e.sr\ Are the county schools which you contemplate to be 
 separate establishments or large buildings attached to existing union workhouses ? 
 — I would have them separate establishments. 
 
 4428. Are you, then, quite confident that the saving you speak of Avould be 
 effective ? — I think it would, because in Norfolk and in Suffi)lk, and in other parts, 
 there are buildings suited to the purpose, which, though they Mould not be 
 efficient as workhouses, would, with some improvement, be perfectly efficient as 
 schools. 
 
 4429. C/iairmnn.] How would you pro])ose to provide for religious instruc- 
 tion? — The Commissioners' regulations subnn't the religious instruction of the 
 children chiefly to the superintendence of the chajdain, who is by their regu- 
 lations i)rovided in each workhouse. Tlic cha])lain is required to re})ort to the 
 board of guardians the moral and religious state of the inmates generally 
 every week, in a book provided for that purpose, and also to examine and 
 catechise the children, which is done ])ractically weekly, and to state the pro- 
 gress which they have made. The schoolmasters submit themselves, in the reli- 
 gious instruction of the children, veiy fully to the directions of the chaplain, 
 provision of course being made, under tlie 10th section of the Poor Law 
 Amendment Act, for the relief of the conscientious scrujiles of Dissenters, who 
 may desire that their own spiritual guides should conduct the religious instruction 
 of their children. 
 
 4430. In the event of there being Protestant Dissenters or Iloman Catholics in 
 any considerable numbers in those schools, does it occur to you that there would 
 be any difficulty in conducting the religious education under the superintendence 
 of chaplains of the Church of England? — The cases which have come under my 
 attention have not been very numerous in Avhich a])plication has been made for 
 the separate religious education of children maintained in the workhouse; and I 
 cannot conceive that any great difiiculty can arise, while the numbers of children of 
 DiBsentcrs continue small, because it is quite plain that the 19th section of the Poor 
 
 202. B Law 
 
10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kay, Esq. Law Amendment Act oives the godfatlicr or the godmother of the chihl, in 
 M. b. the case of an orplian chihl, or the father or mother, in the case of a chihl having 
 parents living, an op])ortunity to object to any portion of the religious instrue- 
 
 13 March 1838. tion that is given in the workhouse, so that the child might be separated from the 
 rest of the children during the period when religious instruction was given. I 
 think, provided there was any suspicion on the part of the parent, that the reli- 
 gious instruction given was intended in any degree to influence the religious 
 belief, and to convey the essential doctrines of Christianity, and that parent 
 objected, that the 19th section would give him an opportunity of separating his 
 child from the religious instmction so conveyed, and to provide for the religious 
 instruction by a teacher of his own sect ? 
 
 4431. And in that way you think the objection might be obviated? — I do; 
 I confine myself at present to my own district. 
 
 4432. You have not experienced any difficulty upon that point ? — I have not. 
 
 4433. Mr. Freshfield.'] You stated that the adult paupers are not such as to be 
 fit models for the children ; you mean that you think their association prejudicial 
 to the children ? — It must be quite plain to the Committee, that when the work- 
 house is offered to a class of labourers, or a class of persons who are applicants for 
 relief, that the most reputable and the most skilful will obtain employment, and 
 the least reputable and the least skilful will be the persons who will come into the 
 workhouse. 
 
 4434. It is then in your view essential that the separation should be effectual 
 between the children and the adult paupers ? — Certainly ; though no objection is 
 made to the parents seeing their children dui'ing any ])art of the day, and they 
 constantly meet them at dinner and supper. 
 
 4435. In the best-conducted workhouses, where the girls are taught household 
 work, are the laundresses selected from the adult paupers ? — If the laundress is 
 selected from the paupers, great attention is paid to her character ; a discreet and 
 reputable female is selected, but it would be exceedingly important, and that 
 would be adopted in the county school if that arrangement were thought desirable, 
 that the laundress should not be a pauper, and that no person who came in contact 
 with the children whilst they were under instruction should be or ever have 
 been a pauper. 
 
 4436. Do you think it would be objected, that in those county schools the 
 children Avere entirely separated from their parents ? — I do not propose that any 
 considerable number of children who have parents in the workhouse should be 
 sent to county schools ; and upon reference to the table which I have given in, it 
 will be found that the great majority are bastard children, or children deserted by 
 their parents, and that the number of children of able-bodied Avidows or of able- 
 bodied men is very small. I cannot consider that a temporary separation, for the 
 permanent advantage of the children, similar to that which occurs in all ranks, 
 would be felt to be a grievance when connected with that great advantage. 
 
 4437. Does it occur to you that the sort of training which you propose to give 
 in county schools, would operate rather hardly upon the children of the adult 
 labourers, who were striving hard to maintain their families without receiving- 
 parochial relief? — I think the first thing we have to look to is the obvious duty 
 of the boards of guardians and Poor Law Commissioners with regard to the 
 education of these children ; and if it should be found that society has generally 
 neglected the instruction of the children of the working classes, I do not think 
 that that argument can be proposed to the board of guardians or the Com- 
 missioners as a reason for neglecting the education of the children in the work- 
 houses. 
 
 4438. What would be the probable effect generally upon any neighbourhood 
 in which this system was adopted iu the workhouses ? — I have already some 
 practical experience of the effect of the improvements made in the Avorkhouse 
 schools, both in Norfolk and Suffolk ; I have found that the books introduced 
 into those schools have been introduced into the parochial schools, that the 
 teachers of the parochial schools have been sent to the workhouse schools to 
 obtain an acquaintance Avith the system of instruction pursued there, and that 
 the existence of such a superior school in any neighbourhood has a consider- 
 able effect in stimulating the exertions of individuals who have been paying 
 attention to the education of the ])oorer classes, and of introducing improA'ements 
 into the schools of that neighbourhood. I think that the county schools would 
 usive a much more important operation, for they would evidently be excellent 
 
 places 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 11 
 
 places for the instmction of teachers, by which a body of teachers for all the J. P. Kay, Esq. 
 
 parochial schools of the county might be provided, at very little or no additional 
 
 expense to the rate-payers of that county. March"T838 
 
 4430. ^Ir. LiddclL] If those county schools were established, would you con- 
 template the admission to them of children of all classes who might be disposed 
 to send their children? — The first consideration for the board of guardians 
 would be, whether the child was necessarily dependent ui)on the rate-payers ; 
 if they determined to relieve the indigence of that child they would take 
 care to grant relief in such a way as to procure for the rate-payers the largest 
 amount of security that its indigence should permanently cease ; and I do not 
 conceive that there would be any additional facilities granted for the admission 
 of the child than now exist, as granted by the board of guardians, though as 
 far as the question of receiving the children of independent labourers out of the 
 workhouse into those schools is concerned, if proper arrangements were adopted 
 for that purpose, I see no objection. 
 
 4440. Then you contemplate those county schools to be entirely out of the 
 control and management of the different boards of guardians in the county ? — 
 I should propose that a board of management should be formed, elected from the 
 boards of guardians, combined for the purpose of maintaining the schools, and that 
 the schools should be under the management of the j)ersons so elected ; but if 
 it were proposed that the children of independent labourers in the neighbourhood 
 of the school should be admitted into it, I can see no objection to that, though it 
 is quite plain that the board of guardians could have no further control over those 
 children than their parents and guardians might desire. 
 
 4441. Then you do not contemplate those schools to be schools open to the 
 admission of any children Avhatever, that their parents may send to them, inde- 
 pendent of the board of management or of the guardians ? — I see no objection to 
 that, though I think, that whenever the child of an independent labourer is sent 
 to a school, it is very desirable that the parent should not surrender the right of 
 removing it, or of interfering with any portion of its instruction ; and therefore, on 
 that ground, it is exceedingly desirable that the parents of this child should 
 make some payment, as a token of their right of interference with the training of 
 their children. 
 
 4442. But supposing the admission to such schools to be open to the public, 
 respectable yeomen and farmers might wish to send their children there ? — I con- 
 ceive that the training given to the children, especially in industrj', would very 
 much distinguish the character of the school fi-om that to which a respectable yeo- 
 man or farmer woukl like to send his child ; and as that would form one of the 
 most prominent features of the school, conducted upon the princi])les which I have 
 attempted to describe to the Committee, and would also exhaust tlie largest portion 
 of every day, T think that in itself would be a complete distinction between 
 the school provided for the children of the labouring classes and the school pro- 
 vided for the children of the yeomen of the district. 
 
 4443. The principles upon which you would desire this school to be established 
 seem to be those ui)on which you would now establish schools in workhouses, only 
 that particular difficulties occur which prevent, according to the evidence you have 
 given, the full extent of the princi|)les being carried out in the workhouses ? — 
 Certainly. 
 
 4444. But you would not go much beyond the education now given in work- 
 houses in those county schools for the children of paupers ? — I should not exjieot 
 to have any Ijotter teachers than are in some of the workhouses in Norfolk 
 and Suffolk, or any better instruction than now exists in some of the work- 
 houses in Norfolk and Suffolk ; but the reason why I am anxious that the 
 county schools should be established is, that security would be provided that all 
 the paupers' children would receive instruction, and for the permanence of the 
 .system, and for economy. 
 
 4445. And you likewise remove the children from those interferences which it 
 is impossible to provide absolutely against, so long as they are maintained in the 
 same workhouse with the adult paupers ? — Certainly. 
 
 4446. Mr. Estcourt^ If thei-c were a good school already established in the ^ 
 neigh])Ourhood, should you object to the children of the workhouse being sent for 
 instruction in the day to such a school? — Certainly not ; on the contrary, if we 
 were to have separate schools connected with each of the Avorkhouses, 1 think 
 that it would be obviously a great improvement, if a parochial school were in the 
 
 202. B 2 neighbourhood ' 
 
12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Koy, Esq. nelgliboiii'liood of the workhouse, tliat the chihh-en of the workhouse should be 
 
 J^'- D. sent to that school to be educated with the children of the independent labourers, 
 
 ~Tr \ ~"o provided the board of guardians could have sufficient control over the manas-e- 
 13 March 1838. jj^pj^j. gpjj^^j 6 
 
 4447. You do not see any thing in the nature and condition of the cliildrcn in 
 the workhouse that should render you averse to allowing them to be brought up 
 in the same school and upon the same footing as the children of independent 
 labourers in a i)arochial school in the neighbourhood ? —On the contrary, I see 
 every thing desirable in the plan proposed. 
 
 4448. Mr, Miles.'] Unless a national system of education is established, in 
 which the independent j)oorer classes are all alike interested, and all alike have 
 the power of sending their children there to receive education, Avould not this 
 plan which you adopt place the pauper children very much above those of the 
 independent labourers as to education ? — I think that in regard to the industrial 
 instruction, which is perhaps that which is most desirable in the training of a 
 child of that class, all the advantages arc still on the side of the independent 
 labourer's child, and that in the attempt to remove the difficulties which there are 
 in conveying proper instruction to the child, it ap]iears to me that you cannot do 
 justice to the pauper child if you afford only the present jiarochial education. 
 
 4449. Chainnnn.] In what way do you think the advantages are entirely in 
 favour of the independent labourer's children ?— Inasmuch as the instruction in 
 industry is in more direct and close connexion with the future occupation of the 
 child, he becomes acquainted by degrees, insensibly almost, with all the species 
 of industry, with the arts of husbandry, and with the occupations of labourers, 
 and he also forms relations M'ith the farmers ; he obtains a character for fidelity 
 and skill, Avhich enables him to procure a situation as an independent labourer ; 
 all which advantages are not at all enjoyed by the pauper child now maintained 
 in the workhouse. 
 
 4450. Mr. Miks.~\ Are there many schools to which the independent labourers 
 can send their children throughout Norfolk and Suffolk ? — The parochial schools 
 are not numerous, and many of them are not good ; and certainly I should 
 say that all of them are inferior to some of the schools which now exist in the 
 workhouses ; but I must refer to the answer which I gave to the question which 
 was previously ])ut to me, in which I stated that I do not think the argument 
 derived from the defect of the existing system of education throughout the 
 country can remove the cogency of the motives derived from a sense of duty on 
 the part of the boards of guardians and the Poor Law Commissioners towards the 
 pauper children committed to their care. 
 
 44.5 1 . Mr. Estcourt.'] Is it not probable, in the nature of things, if an improved 
 system of education were afforded for the pauper children, that fi'om that circum- 
 stance the parochial schools would immediately undergo an amendment? — I have 
 already said that I have witnessed amendments in schools in the neighbourhood 
 of workhouses, and it would be quite impossible that the existing system of 
 instruction for the children of the poorer classes could exist throughout the 
 country in the neighbourhood of such schools as I propose to create.* 
 
 44.52. Mr. Baines-I Are there not considerable complaints in the manufacturing 
 districts 'of the want of female servants ?— Very great complaints. 
 
 4453. Do those complaints extend to agricultural districts? — Complaints of the 
 <lifficulty of obtaining efficient female servants do extend to the agricultural dis- 
 tricts, though the want of service in those districts is not felt to so great an extent 
 as in manufacturing towns. 
 
 4454. And would not this industrial education in a certain time supply this 
 defect? — I think there is no more obvious defect in the training of females 
 of the lower classes than their want of knowledge of domestic economy ; the 
 houses of labourers might be rendered very much more comfortable, and more 
 attractive, if the young females were instructed in domestic economy, particularly 
 in frugal cookery ; all which is now entirely neglected in the instruction of chil- 
 dren, not only in the south of England but in the north. 
 
 4455. Then there would be two advantages ; one would be, that the want of 
 good domestic servants would be in a certain degree supplied by that kind of 
 education which you have described ; and the other is, that when the girl becomes 
 a Avife, and a mother, she would be more likely to perform her duties to the 
 advantage of those with whom she was connected ? — Certainly. 
 
 4456. jNIr. Lid(lell.~\ With regard to those schools you stated that a large 
 
 portion 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 13 
 
 portion of the children that you proposed to be admitted into them would be j p j^^y^ p-^.^^ 
 without their parents, and thrown upon the Avorld for support; with respect m. n. 
 
 to the religious education in the county schools, how would you propose to pro- 
 
 vide that ? — I have stated that I would have a chaplain to each county school, 13 March 1838. 
 and as the law at present stands, that chaplain would luive the superintendence 
 of the religious education of all the children, except those for whose conscien- 
 tious scruples relief is provided by the 19th section of the Poor Law Amend- 
 ment Act, 
 
 4457. Therefore the children in those schools would be educated by the chap- 
 Iain, according- to the principles and doctrines of the Church of England ? — In an 
 agi'icultural district, an inspection of the books of the workhouses would show 
 that the great majority of those admitted into the workhouses are those who pro- 
 fess to belong to the Established Church, the number of Dissenters being extremely 
 small ; it is therefore difficult in such districts to see how a chaplain could be 
 appointed for the Dissenters only; and I think if the situation of the school 
 were selected with a view to such an object, that sufficient relief would be 
 afforded for the number of Dissenters that are found in workhouses, imder the 
 19tli section of the Poor Law Amendment Act ; and that there would be no 
 great or prominent objection urged against committing the religious instruction 
 of the children principally to the chaplain. 
 
 4458. The children whose religious education would be confided to the dissent- 
 ing teachers, would only be so confided upon the special request of their parents ? 
 — The jiro vision of the 19th section of the Act, for the religious instruction which 
 shall be affi^rded to Dissenters, states that it shall be upon their request, or the 
 request of the parents or the godfathers or godmothers of the children ; in case 
 of their not having either parent or godfather or godmother, if there were friends 
 who expressed a similar desire, I think it is quite obvious that such a request 
 Avould 1)0 immediately acceded to, and that the children would be separated from 
 the religious instruction given in the workhouse. 
 
 44.59. Miles.~\ You say that there are few children of Dissenters in the 
 workhouses of unions with which you are connected ? — Very few. 
 
 4460. In the county of Lancaster and in the county of York it would bo dif- 
 ferent ? — Certainly. 
 
 4461. Would the children of Roman Catholics be placed under the necessity 
 of learning any catechisms, or any fonns connected with religious belief that would 
 be inconsistent with the princi])lcs of their parents? — Certainly not ; if any objec- 
 tion were made by the parents, or the godfather or the godmother, or the relation 
 of a child, to any part of the religious instruction, for example, to the reading of 
 the Bible, supposing that such instruction was given or supposed to be given with 
 a view to influence religious belief, and to impart the essential doctrines of Chris- 
 tianity, that objection would be taken to be valid ; the child M'ould be se])aratcd 
 from that j)art of the instruction given in the school, and the religious teacher of 
 the sect would l)e permitted to have admission to the workhouse, to give reli- 
 gious instmction to that child sejiarately from the rest of the children. 
 
 4462. Then in reality, upon the ground of religious scruple, there does not seem 
 to be any objection to the system you projiose ? — I do think that both Dissenters 
 and Catholics would consider that, practically, this relief was sufficient for all the 
 scni|)les they might entertain with regard to the religious instruction given in the 
 ■workhouses, under the circumstances previously alluded to. 
 
 4463. Though the masters would be, for the most part, the chai)lains of the 
 Established Church, and would give to the gi-eat body of the children that kind of 
 religious instruction that belongs to their own particular community? — The 
 instruction would be divided under three heads, religious instruction, moral and 
 industrial training, and secular instruction ; now it would be quite easy to prescribe 
 that to those several departments of instruction particular hours of the day should 
 be alh)tted, so that it is evident, if a careful definition of what was religious 
 instruction was adopted, it would be easy to separate the children of any sect, or 
 to separate the children of Catholics from that instruction, and to give the children 
 all the advantage of the moral and industrial training, and the instruction in 
 secular knowledge. 
 
 44(54. The two classes would, of course, be common to all, and therefore it 
 would 1)0 only the religious instruction on which there could bo any difference as 
 to the course of instruction they should receive ? — Certainly. 
 
 4465. What do you mean by secular instruction ? — Under secular instruction T 
 202. B 3 include 
 
14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 /. P. Kay, Esq. include reading, writing and arithmetic, and such general knowledge suited to the 
 M, D, station of the children in life as it might be deemed desirable to give tlicm ; I 
 
 personally think that no difficulty ought to be entertained in giving them as much 
 
 13 March 1838. knowledge as is given in the parochial schools in Scotland, with some difference in 
 regard to the industrial instruction ; and beyond that (being a good practical exam- 
 ple) I should not desire to propose that the schools should proceed. 
 
 4466. You have given in a classification of children, divided under different 
 heads ; have you any similar classification of adults in the union workhouses which 
 you have been su])crintending ? — I have a classification of adults here, under 
 several heads, which may give the Committee the means of ascertaining to what 
 classes they belong, made in answer to a circular which I issued to the masters of 
 workhouses, in the week ending January 1838. The table relates to the following 
 heads ; under the head of able-bodied men, the number married, and whose wives 
 are resident in the workhouse ; the number married, but whose wives are resident 
 out of the workhouse ; the immber of widowers whose children are resident in the 
 workhouse ; the number of widowers without children in the workhouse ; the 
 number of single men, and, of the above-mentioned classes, the number who had 
 been inmates of the workhouse before the formation of the union. Under the 
 head of tcmi)orarily disabled, a similar enumeration of classes. Under the head of 
 old and infirm, also a similar enumeration of classes ; and, substituting husbands 
 for wives, and widows for widowers, a similar enumeration of classes under the 
 head of able-bodied women, and women temporarily disabled, and of old and 
 infirm women. 
 
 4467. And that applies to the whole of the unions in the counties of Norfolk 
 and Suffolk which you have formed ? — Certainly ; to the whole of the unions in 
 which the workhouses were in efficient operation. 
 
 \_The Witness delivered in the same. — F26?6' Appendix (D.)] 
 
 4468. When the children come to a suitable age to leave the school, how are 
 they disposed of in the unions ? — As the improvements in the schools have only 
 been recently effected, very considerable difficulty has been experienced, in some 
 cases, in which there had been previous neglect, in providing situations for the 
 children ; but in those cases in which the improvements have been for some time 
 in progress, little or no difficulty is experienced in providing the girls with places 
 in domestic service, and the boys with situations with the farmers, in various 
 occupations of husbandry. 
 
 4469. In practice is it found, as there has been an opportunity to try the ex- 
 periment, that there is a kindly feeling between the children so instructed and the 
 masters and mistresses that they have been placed with ? — It is quite obvious, from 
 the most cursory examination of the subject, that the relations which obtain 
 between the master and servant, in the cases which I have described, are exceed- 
 ingly more desirable than those that obtain under the apprenticeship system, and, 
 in point of fact, they are excellent. 
 
 4470. Do you apprentice the child to the master ? — We do not. 
 
 447 1 . Then, in the event of that child misconducting himself, and a quarrel 
 arising between a master and a child, or a mistress and a child, is he or she returned 
 back to the workhouse r — If it were an orphan or deserted child it would be 
 returned to the workhouse, and its dependence would be resumed ; but as the 
 situations are commonly obtained in the parish to which the child belongs, it is 
 obviously the interest of the occupiers that the dependence of the child should 
 cease ; and it is the interest of the child, by industry and skill, to deserve the 
 permanency of the situation in the house of its employer ; and, by the natural 
 result of both parties promoting useful relations between them, it has not been 
 found necessary to resort to any other expedients. 
 
 4472. Mr. Hodges.'] You have stated that those schools are of quite recent 
 origin ? — We have had schools in the workhouses very far superior to any thing 
 that obtained in the workhouses formerly ; and though I have not gained all the 
 objects that I desire, still I may say that certain of the schools have had a consider- 
 able effect in improving the manners and morals of the children, and making tliem 
 desirable servants, though they are by no means every thing that we wish to obtain. 
 
 4473. Have they been sufficiently long established to enable you to speak con- 
 fidently as to the results ? — I cannot speak confidently as to a result which has not 
 been obtained and which is in futurity ; but, argniing from the past, I should say 
 that certain of the schools as they now exist will afford great security to the rate- 
 payers of the cessation of the dependence of the children. 
 
 4474. Chamnan. 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 15 
 
 4474. Chairman. ~\ When you refer to experience, do you not refer to those j. p. Kay, Esq. 
 schools which have been long established, such as the school at Hackney- Wick and ^- d. 
 
 others, the effects of which yon have observed? — Of course, the acquaintance which 
 
 I have had with the influence of those schools upon the morals and industry of ^3 Marcl> 1838. 
 children, strengthens in my mind the conviction of the utility of the system. 
 
 447.5. Mr. Baines.] Have any children been sent out of the union M'orkhouses 
 and placed with persons who are to instruct them in business, or with whom they 
 are placed as domestic servants, since the establishment of those union workhouses ? 
 Certainly. 
 
 4476. And as far as the experiment has been tried, which cannot have been for 
 a long time, does it promise to be satisfactory ? — I have already stated that there 
 are schools which have been exceptions to this rule, and in which considerable 
 difficulty has been experienced, and I spoke of other schools in which a better sys- 
 tem had been adopted for a certain period; and in answer to the question, I wish to 
 confine myself to this latter kind of schools The experience we have had of this 
 latter kind of training justifies me in saying that the results alluded to in the 
 question have been attained. 
 
 4477. Do you happen to know that children sent from the workhouses under 
 the old system very frequently returned to the workhouses after having been with 
 their masters or mistresses for a month or two ? — That was so common, that it was 
 the rule instead of being the exception to the rule. 
 
 4478. Are any fees given with the children that are apprenticed out of the 
 workhouse ; do you give to the master or mistress who receive the children any 
 fees out of the parochial funds ? — That has not been adopted in any district under 
 my superintendence, though I see that great advantages would be derived from 
 making the emolument of the master, to a certain extent, dependent upon the 
 more permanent cessation of the dependence of the child and its success in life ; I 
 think that it might be very proper indeed, and useful, to adopt the rule, that after 
 a child had been a certain period at service the master should receive a premium for 
 its continuance at service. 
 
 4479. That would be an improvement upon the former system, which was to give 
 a fee at the time the child leaves the workhouse and enters upon service? — Yes, 
 under the old system that was the case ; and in consequence of the imperfection of 
 certain of the workhouse schools, we have been driven to adopt that in a few 
 exceptional cases under the new system. 
 
 4480. Do you happen to know that formerly under the old system a consider- 
 able number of children were sent from workhouses of the metropolis, and from 
 other places into the country, to a distance of 200 or 300 miles from their proper 
 protectors, and sent to work in factories Avithout liaving anybody to watch over 
 them, or at all to guard against their being ill treated in those factories ? — I do. 
 
 4481. Have you any thing in the new law corresponding with that? — I know 
 that in one or two cases children have been sent from certain of the workhouses 
 into Lancashire to the manufactories ; if those cases had come under my observa- 
 tion, I certainly should have objected to them, and I was not aware that they had 
 occurred till after the aiTangement had been made ; one or two cases of that kind 
 have occurred in which engagements have been made for the children, but eveiy 
 watchful care has been bestowed upon their condition by the migration agent who 
 is employed in Lancashire. 
 
 4482. Then under the new system you have, in some instances, drafted off chil- 
 dren in this way fi'om the south, and sent them to manufactories in the north? — 
 I only know one or two examples of that kind, when from 12 to 20 children, 
 orphan and deserted children, were sent into Lancashire. 
 
 4483. C/iairman.'] Placing them vmder the protection and observation of the 
 migration agent ? — Exactly ; who has fi'om time to time made reports to the 
 board of guardians of their condition, which have been, I believe, satisfactory to 
 the board. 
 
 That being a protection which, previously to the introduction of this law, 
 those children would not have enjoyed ? — Certainly, they would not have 
 enjoyed it. 
 
 4485. Mr. Baines.] Would you recommend that that system should be acted 
 upon, or that they should abstain from sending children in that way ? — I have 
 already stat(!fl, that when I heard of this j)roceeding I expressed my disap- 
 probation of it, and in one or two cases in which the attempt was made by the 
 board of guardians to send children without their natural protectors into Lanca. 
 
 202. B 4 shire 
 
i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kay, Esq. sliirp, I Urged tliem to desist from pursuing the plan ; I believe that, in the cases 
 M. D. in which it has occurred, the great activity and vigilance of the migration agent 
 
 has afforded to the children mIio have gone, all the protection that possibly could 
 13 March 1838. given; besides, the situations, I have no doubt, have been selected amongst 
 
 masters of great intelligence and humanity, whose own natural feelings would prompt 
 
 them to protect the children. 
 
 4486. In those cases, after you had made the objection, Avas the practice ab- 
 stained from in future ? — Certainly. 
 
 4487. And it does not now, according to your knowledge, exist in any of the 
 unions Avith v\hicli you are connected ? — Certainly it would not occur again. I 
 ought also to explain that, in the case in which the migration of children occurred, 
 a reputable female, and I believe, a ftimily also, went with the children from the 
 district, l)ut certainly a reputable female went. 
 
 4488. Fees have been paid Avith children that have been sent out of the Mork- 
 house ; do you know whether in any cases there have been fees paid by parish- 
 ioners M ho have refused to take children Avhen they have been awarded to them ? 
 — Fines have been paid under the system of compulsory a2)])renticeshi]), and 
 those fines amounted to a very considerable sum, in many of the old incorporations, 
 annually ; the occupier was liable to a fine, and, u])on a second fine being obtained 
 by the offer of a child to another occui)ier, it Avas common to a])ply those accu- 
 mulated fines as the fee of ajiprenticeshij) of the child ; sometimes 20 1, were thus 
 given for the ap})renticesliip of the child, Avhich by no means ensured its well- 
 being ; on the contrary, the examples, great numbers of Avliich I have examined, 
 of the ojieration of that system have proved that it did not secure the well-being 
 of the children so apprenticed. 
 
 4489. Then, in point of fact, it was disadvantageous both to the children and 
 the master r — Certaiidy ; no system was more unpopular among the occu})iers, and 
 no system o})erated to })rocure gi-eater injury to the children. 
 
 4490. JNIr. Scrape] You have said that you see no objection to the children in 
 the Avorkhouse being educated in some neighbouring school, if there Avas one, sup- 
 posing that the number in the Avorkhouse Avas not sufficient to make it Avorth 
 while to procure the services of an adequate master there ? — Yes. 
 
 4491. ^A^ould you, as Assistant-commissioner, feel yourself justified in sanction- 
 ing the payment necessary for the education of those children ? — I think the 
 children certainly ought not to be sent to any school out of the control of the 
 board of guardians ; and I think, therefore, if the plan Avere adopted, that the 
 schools should be provided at the expense of the union, and that if payment 
 Avere made it should be by the independent labourers Avhose children come to the 
 school, the school itself being under the guidance of the board of guardians. 
 
 4492. You contemplate, therefore, the establishment of a neAv school for that 
 purpose ; but uiy question referred to this case : there being no school in the Avork- 
 house, but there being a good school in the neighbourhood of the Avorkhouse, in a 
 toAvn, for examjile, already established, say a national school, requiring a j)ayment 
 of 2d. per head per Aveek, Avould you, as Assistant-commissioner, feel yourself 
 justified in sanctioning the pa}Tnent of that 2c?. for a certain number of chil- 
 dren maintained in the Avorkhouse, but sent to be educated daily in the national 
 school ? — I think that the responsibilities of the board of guardians, in connexion 
 Avith the sulyect of the training of children are so great, that they ought not to 
 send the children to a school over Avhich they have not control, but that the school 
 ought to be Avithin their control ; and if the children Avere sent to the neighbour- 
 ing parochial school, the board of guardians Avould not have authority to regulate 
 the discipline of that school, to interfere Avith the schoolmaster and schoolmistress 
 
 • by a direct exercise of their authority, but only by an indirect ; I think it pre- 
 ferable, if the children were educated in conjunction Avith the children of the inde- 
 pendent labourers, which seems to be exceedingly desirable, that the school in 
 which they Avere so trained should be under the control and guidance of the board 
 of guardians. 
 
 4493. But your ansAver supposes the adoption of a ncAv plan and the establish- 
 ment of ncAv schools, Avhich is unlikely to be carried, at all events immediately, 
 into execution ; su})2)osing there Avere 20 children in any Avorkhouse, and there Avas 
 no workhouse education there, and there AA-as an excellent education in the neigh- 
 bourhood, Avould you have any objection to paying the tAvopences per Aveek for 
 each of tliose children for attending this school ? — As there does not appear to me 
 to be sufficient security for the permanence of the excellent system Avliich might 
 
 obtain 
 
« 
 
 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838 ) 17 
 
 obtain in that school, unless it were under the guidance and control of the board /. P. Kay, Esq. 
 of cuardians or the Commissioners; I should not think that school so desirable as 
 providing by the direction of the board of gxiardians an efhcient master who should 
 be altogether under their control ; and if any change were made in the present March 1838. 
 plan, I should prefer that it should be the establishment of a school without the 
 workhouse, for the mutual benefit of the children in the workhouse and the chil- 
 dren of independent labourers, under the directions of the board ; or the establish- 
 ment of county schools. 
 
 4494. But, practically, the board of guardians would have the power of with- 
 drawing those children from the school, in case it were not conducted upon the 
 principles which it approved of? — But if, in the principles upon Avhich any system 
 is founded, there be inherent defects, great obstruction and embarrassment must 
 arise in conducting the practical operation of that system. 
 
 449,5. Are there not many instances of workhouses in which the children are 
 not sufficiently numerous to make it worth while to pay for a schoolmaster, and in 
 which, consequently, there is no education going on ? — There is only one instance 
 in my district in which a schoolmaster is not already provided, or about to be pro- 
 vided. There are only one or two cases in which the schoolmaster is not pro- 
 vided ; that is mere accident, arising fi'om the dismissal of a schoolmaster, and a 
 certain period having intervened before the election of a new one. 
 
 4496. Does not it frequently happen that widows with poor children, or widow- 
 ers with poor children, receiving out-door relief from the parish in the shape of 
 allowance, allow those children to grow up uneducated and in a very careless 
 manner; and would you think yourself authorized, or the board of guardians 
 authorized, in refusing the allowance in those cases, unless the children were 
 educated ? — I think the first question for the board of guardians is. Is the applicant 
 necessarily indigent? and they are bound, as the first object of their care, to relieve 
 that indigence ; and that all those questions concerning the moral and religious 
 training of the children must be subservient to the main duty of the board of 
 guardians, either the temporary or the permanent cessation of the dependence of 
 the applicant. 
 
 4497. The question supposes that the widow is receiving out-door-relief ; would 
 you not recommend the guardians to refuse out-door relief, and to give that relief 
 in the workhouse, where the children obtain a good education? — Boards of guar- 
 dians do practically make inquiries whether the children are employed, or go to 
 school, if there be a school in the neighbourhood ; and they encourage that to a 
 certain extent, I may say, by insisting ujion the children being employed, or 
 going to school ; but they do not go so far, in the case of a widow with a large 
 family, as to refuse out-door relief, supposing she should refuse to listen and con- 
 form to the wishes of the board of guardians. 
 
 4498. In such a case, if the widow answered that she had no means of payment 
 for the education of her children, would the board of guardians be justified in 
 paying the expenses of the education of those children ? —The fact is, that in the 
 rural districts where schools exist, they arc, for the most part, charity schools, and 
 a pajTnent is not required ; so that, practically, the instances in which a payment is 
 required from the parents for the education of their children are, in the rural 
 districts, exceedingly few. 
 
 4499. Mr. Liddell.'] Is it certain that in all cases the board of guardians will be 
 the fittest parties to exercise an entire control over the school? — Most boards of 
 guardians contain certain intelligent individuals to whom such departments of the 
 system are objects of peculiar interest, and often of peculiar care ; and J think 
 that a board of management for 10 or 12 unions, if such individuals were 
 selected to form that board, would be found altogether sufficient ; I confess that I 
 see great obstacles in the present constitution of the board of guardians, and the 
 interference of individuals of lower intelligence, and perhaps narrower views, with 
 the system of instruction communicated in the sdiools ; I think that those diffi- 
 culties might be eluded by the formation of a board of management, consisting 
 of the more intelligent members. 
 
 4.500. A sort of school committee, to be collated from the different board of 
 guardians ? — Yes. 
 
 4501. Mr. SlaneijJ] In describing the system which would be likely to be 
 adopted by boards of guardians for the improvement of the education of the 
 children of the poor, you have sketched out a plan which would be a very great 
 improvement upon the plan formerly pursued in the education of the paupers; if 
 
 202 c that 
 
i8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kay, Esq. that sliould be put into practice, do you not think tliat it woukl bo neccssaiy to 
 improve, generally, some how or other, the education of the humbler classes of 
 
 JsMarciiiSaS independent labourers ? — I think that most desirable ; and I believe that if the 
 board of guardians discharge, to the extent that I have dcscril)ed, and in the 
 manner that I should wish, their duties towards the pauper children, that would 
 be one of the most powerful means of promoting the results alluded to in the 
 question. 
 
 4502. Mr. Baines.l lias it been objected to, in any of the schools, that the 
 children should not be taught, also, to write ? — I have not merely heard objections 
 to the children being taught to write, but I have heard of objections of this sort, 
 that children should be taught nothing, provided they could not be taught to read 
 the Bible in a foreign language, by which I understood that it was believed, that 
 any secular knowledge being given to the children would be solely injurious, and 
 that the only means of confining knowledge entirely to religious knowledge, 
 would be to teach them in such a way that they could read no other book but the 
 Bible. 
 
 4503. Chairman.^ You have heard that objection made by persons who would 
 object to education altogether ? — Yes. 
 
 4504. Mr. Baines.'\ Has the objection to teaching children to Avrite been an 
 objection urged to any extent in the unions ? — I must say that the boards of 
 guardians have shown a great disposition to adopt the suggestions which have 
 been made to them concerning the improvement of the schools, and that by 
 the explanations which have been made, showing that the grand object was to 
 rear a race of hardy and intelligent labourers, and not to give the children know- 
 ledge unsuited to their situation in life, they have been led to the adoption of 
 the plans which have been pursued, without a very great amount of difficulty and 
 embarrassment ; at the same time, I cannot conceal that there are not merely 
 individuals who object to all education, but also individuals who object to educa- 
 tion, except of a very limited character. I, however, have not found any oppo- 
 sition as yet, which could not be removed by patient perseverance. 
 
 4505. Then in all cases it has been so far removed that children have been 
 allowed to learn to write as well as to read ? — I remember only one or two in- 
 stances in which, besides being taught to read and write, they are not also taught 
 arithmetic, and have a certain amount of general knowledge communicated to 
 them throughout the unions in Norfolk and Suffolk. 
 
 4506. That prevails throughout the whole of the unions ? — Yes, it does ; and 
 arrangements are now being made for the introduction of a superior system of 
 instruction. 
 
 4507. Mr Slaney.'] Are there attached to the workhouses places of exercise for 
 the children ? — The children go out to work daily for two or three hours, and 
 they have a great deal of healthy exercise in that way. In some of the work- 
 houses also, we have thought it desirable to provide the children with gymnastic 
 exercises ; for example, a circular swing is erected in one workhouse-yard, and 
 the children amuse themselves that or some similar apparatus. Those 
 instances are not numerous, but there are instances in which the children are 
 allowed to take a walk with the master or mistress. t 
 
 4508. Chairman.^ Beyond the boundary of the workhouse ? — Yes. 
 
 4509. Mr. Slaneij.'] Are the children from the ages of four to six treated differ- 
 ently from the children of the ages of six to ten ? — I have explained to the 
 Committee that the difficulties, as regards classification, are extremely great, on 
 account of the school being in the workhouse ; and that I hope that those 
 difficulties might be obviated by collecting the children together in county schools, 
 in which that classification might be adopted. 
 
 4510. Supposing that classification to take place, so that children from three to 
 six were in one school, and children from six to ten in the other, do not you think 
 that a greater degree of relaxation ought to be afforded to the little children than 
 the others ? — My idea is that a certain amount of relaxation is absolutely neces- 
 sary for the success of the school discipline ; and I have strongly urged the masters 
 if possible to avoid all recourse to punishment, and especially degrading punish- 
 ment, and to rely upon their skill in communicating knowledge, and upon occa- 
 sional relaxation in getting rid of the lassitude which is incident to school disci- 
 pline, and procuring a healthful tone in the school. 
 
 45 11 . With respect to the schools now established where relaxation is confined 
 in a great measure to exercise by walking in the garden, do you not think that 
 
 they 
 
I 
 
 ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 19 
 
 they ouglit to be permitted, those young children, to have sports in which they can J. r. Kay, Esq. 
 amuse themselves? — That is already supplied in some of the workhouses. 
 
 4512. They have some time for play besides the time given for exercise and 33 March 1838 
 walking out with the master ? — Yes. 
 
 4513. JNIr. Hodfjes.] With reference to some of your early answers to questions 
 from the Chairman, you used these words : " We have adopted the system of 
 taking some of the children belonging to large families, by way of relieving those 
 families, into the workhouse ; and we have done so during what we call the period 
 of transition." Have you had the direct sanction of the Poor Law Commissioners 
 for that arrangement? — I understand the provisions of the Poor LaAV Amendment 
 Act to be formed upon this principle ; that there shall be a gradual abandonment 
 of those practices which have hitherto prevailed, and a gradual adoption of the 
 provisions of the law, under the regulations of the Poor Law Commissioners. Now 
 in Norfolk and Suffolk the practice of taking children into the workhouses, was 
 one of the practices of the previous system of relief, and it has not yet become 
 extinct ; it was not only incident to the workhouses of incorporations, h^t also to 
 the workhouses of parishes. We are now in the course of the gradual abandon- 
 ment of that practice ; but we have not thought it right, under all the circumstances 
 of the district, to proceed at once and abruptly to a total change of the system. 
 
 4514. Have you the direct sanction of the Poor Law Commissioners for that 
 arrangement? — I do not know that I have received any official sanction ; I do 
 know that I reported to the Poor Law Commissioners that this practice still 
 survived, and that I was applying myself to j)rocure, by gradual measures, its 
 extinction, and the communications from the Poor Law Commissioners have not 
 stated any thing but the expression of a desire that it might be no longer pro- 
 longed than might appear to be necessary for the gradual transition which it was 
 their desire should be effected. 
 
 4515. Are you aware whether the Poor Law Commissioners have refused this 
 species of relief to large families in other districts ? — I have no acquaintance with 
 any orders issued by the Poor Law Commissioners to other districts ; I have 
 merely a knowledge of my own district. 
 
 4.516. As far as regards this particular part of the Poor Law, you are of opinion 
 that a gradual approach to the principles of this law is the safest course ? — I am 
 of opinion, not merely in that respect, but in every other department of the 
 Act. 
 
 4.5 1 7- Will you explain particularly your meaning when you used the words 
 *' period of transition" ? — I mean this. Whereas by the plan of making up the 
 wages of labourers under the former system of parochial management, by which 
 men obtained out-door relief for lost time, there was a most extensive inter- 
 ference between the natural relations, which, in districts where that had not 
 occurred, obtained between the master and the servant ; I mean by the 
 period of transition the period during which, hy various expedients adopted 
 under the provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, the just and natural 
 relation between the master and servant is induced, and that is done l)y suc- 
 cessive steps, which, if it be the desire of the Committee, I will proceed to 
 explain. 
 
 4518. Will you do so? — In the first instance, the boards of guardians have not 
 merely continued out-door relief, and made up wages, but they have continued 
 the allowance to large families. During this period, probably, the workhouse was 
 in the course of alteration, or the workhouse was building ; when the workhouse 
 has been built they have first interfered, probably, with the able-bodied labourers, 
 by making offers to single men; and then they have successively advanced tlirough 
 the various strata (if I may use the word) of labourers, in proportion as their 
 families and necessities increased, offering the workhouse to successive classes of 
 labouHirs. The last class which has been interfered with is the labourers with 
 large families ; and when that interference took place, which was not an inter- 
 ference that immediately excluded the practice which had previously obtained, 
 of taking certain of the children into the workhouse, it was thought that the 
 permission of the continuance of that practice, for a certain period, was in direct 
 accordance with the provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, which permit a 
 gradual extinction of the practice of the allowance system. Cert.ain of the boards 
 of guardians, however, in my district, have, at an earlier ])eriod than others, 
 thought it expedient to abandon the practice of relieving large families, by taking 
 children into the workhouse ; and they have done it on these grounds, that they 
 
 202. c 2 believed 
 
20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kmj, Esq. believed the practice of taking large families into the workhouse afforded a larger 
 °' amount of protection to the labourer having a large family, than the practice of 
 
 13 iMarch 1838 ^'^^^"S ^ portion of his children into the workhouse. Others of the boards of 
 guardians have, for a certain period longer, permitted this custom to survive, but 
 it is now in the course of abandonment throughout my district. 
 
 4519. Over what probable space of time do you consider the period of transi- 
 tion to have extended ? — In this respect, that I think that now boards of guardians 
 will probably desire that practice, of taking children of large families into the 
 workhouse, should not survive this summer. 
 
 4520. Mr. Bai7ies.'] That would apply to unions that have been established 
 some time, because unions that are only just now upon the point of being esta- 
 blished would not have any transition state at all, if you come to the determi- 
 nation to terminate it during the present summer? — No unions have been recently 
 established in my district ; most of the workhouses in my district have been in 
 operatioPj for more than a year; and in those unions which have not been long in 
 operation there are peculiar facilities for the abandonment of this system, arising 
 from a variety of circumstances relating to the particular district, into which I need 
 not descend. 
 
 4,521. Mr. Hodges. 1 Wlien you state that in your district, in the course of this 
 summer, the relief to large families in this manner will pr()bably be discontinued, 
 will that discontinuance be with your full approbation ? — My belief is, if the 
 change proceeds, as all the changes in my district have proceeded, solely upon 
 the conviction of the board of guardians, that an abandonment of that plan will 
 not occasion any difficulty in the unions ; because I think that such an adjustment 
 of the income of the family, by afTording a large amount of the best piece-work to 
 the man, and by affording employment to the wife and employment to the 
 children, will occur, so that a sufficient annual income will be provided for the 
 largest families in my district. 
 
 4522. Are you able to assure the Committee, that, from any inquiry you have 
 made, the farmers generally of that district are prepared to create more work, and 
 to advance the wages, so as to enable those men with large families to maintain 
 those families without the relief which they have hitherto had in the workhouse ? 
 • — Not only from general inquiry (if I understand the word wages in this sense, 
 the annual income of the family), but from special inquiry in particular districts, 
 and having made it a subject of minute observation for some time past, I am per- 
 fectly convinced that the majority of the intelligent occupiers in Norfolk and 
 Suffolk prefer that the system of allowance to large families, and the system of 
 taking children into the workhouse, should cease. 
 
 4523. Then are the Committee to understand that a certain quantity of work 
 has been omitted to be done, though acknowledged to be necessary to be done, on 
 the part of the farmers of that district, merely because the children, who other- 
 wise would do this work, have been maintained in the workhouses ? — I think the 
 whole influence of the workhouse system is this, that in the first place it places 
 on the side of the labourer strong and powerful motives to become an industrious 
 and faithful servant, and so renders his labour more valuable ; and that it places 
 on the part of the occupier the strongest possible motive for a cessation of the 
 dependence of the labourers in his particular parish, and that by the adjustment 
 which occurs from more faithful service being rendered, and from its being the 
 more direct and obvious interest of the occupier to provide employment for the 
 labourers in the parish, that the whole labourers of the parish do come to be 
 employed, and that such an adjustment of the income of the family does take 
 place as provides for the necessities of those large families ; I may illustrate this 
 by saying that it has been my constant practice at boards of guardians to say, in 
 reference to the provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act, there is one of 
 three alternatives to the occupiers of the parish, either that they should provide 
 employment and wages in such a manner as to be equal to the necessities of the 
 labourers' families, or that they should provide for their maintenance in the work- 
 house at double the cost, or that they should provide the means of their going to 
 a more profitable field of employment ; and in any one of those modes (of course, 
 I conceive that the residence of an able-bodied labourer in the workhouse not 
 only practically, but must of necessity be transient, it being the obvious interest 
 of every body in the parish that it should be so) ; in every one of those modes the 
 interests of the labourers will be most materially promoted, and when I say that 
 more employment has been provided, I apprehend that the intelligence, the skill, 
 
 and 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 21 
 
 13 March 1838. 
 
 and a large amount of the capital of the occupiers has been brought into play in J- P- l^ay, Ksq. 
 a much more active manner, to provide that employment for the labourers of the 
 district. 
 
 45 24. Are you so far assured of that as to be able to state any one parish in 
 Norfolk or Suffolk where that has taken place ? — Last year, for my own purposes 
 solely, and simply for my oAvn information, I thought it right to visit a particular 
 district, which had been one of the most pauperized districts of Suffolk, and I spent 
 several days in the district assembling the principal occupiers of certain parishes in 
 the vestry ; we took the relief books for the year 1 833-4 ; we extracted the name of 
 every person who was then receiving allowance from the parish ; we took out the 
 whole amount of the relief of that person for the year 1883-4, and we then made 
 particular inquiries of the occupiers in the parish what was his condition as 
 respected wages, as respected employment, as respected the employment of his 
 wife and of his children, and M e found that the great majority of the persons who 
 bad been dependent upon the poor-rates were no longer dependent; and upon 
 inquiring into their condition, it was found that there had been an increase in the 
 income of the families, derived from wages, which it was most obvious supplied 
 what had been derived from the poor-rate. That was carried to the extent of 
 about 600 families, in a very important district, and cost me a very laborious 
 application during many successive days. 
 
 4525. Be so good as to state the district which you are describing? — It was the 
 neighbourhood of Hadleigh, in Suffolk. 
 
 4526. The result has been that wages have risen, or, at least, the receipts of 
 the family have been greater than they were under the former system ? — Even the 
 nominal rate of wages for week-day employment has risen in Norfolk and Suffolk ; 
 in this particular district the ordinary rate of wages for week-day employment was 
 8*. a week, but it has risen in that district to 10 5. per week generally ; but by wages 
 I do not think it is fair to speak simply of the wages which are given for week-day 
 emplojTnent, and I believe that the greatest illusion prevails on the subject of 
 wages, from not taking into account all the various methods of increasing the 
 income of labourers' families which are resorted to by the occupiers, in order to 
 furnish sufficient reward for their services, and to attach them to their masters, 
 in point of fact, to stimulate their industry and integrity, many of which methods, 
 except upon a very minute investigation, escape observation, even in such an inves- 
 tigation as I endeavoured to conduct at the period to which I allude, not merely 
 seeking to know what was the nominal amount of wages, but how much was earned 
 by the wife, and how much by each of the children, and what other perquisites were 
 given to the labourers. 
 
 4.527. Chairman.'] Was the result to convince you that a great increase in the 
 means of subsistence of the family had taken place since the introduction of the 
 law ? — The result was to convince me absolutely that the income of the labourer 
 was not only not diminished, but, in a majority of the instances, was considerably 
 increased. 
 
 4528. Mr. Hodges.'] Did you take the trouble to go into their houses and 
 ascertain their mode of living ; was that improved under the new system ? — It has 
 been very frequently the custom with me to go into the houses of labourers ; I 
 have endeavoured to do so alone, and without confessing who I was and what my 
 object was, because I think that under those circumstances alone could I arrive at 
 the truth. 
 
 4529. Then you have felt it to be your duty to make those visits to the labourers' 
 houses ? — Certainly. 
 
 4530. Have you ascertained that their condition is really improved? — That is a 
 much more difficult thing to ascertain than it is to ascertain the truth by the method 
 of investigation which I have described to the Committee ; because I think there is 
 a certain esprit du corps among all classes of society, and that it should exist 
 among labourers is not at all to their disparagement, as compared with other 
 classes of society ; I do think that such investigations do not always, unless you have 
 the means of personal observation and actual facts before you, enable you to arrive 
 at the truth. 
 
 4531. Chairman.] Having ascertained that the income, and the means of the 
 families of the labourers, were increased, have you any reason to suppose that 
 their comforts of living were not increased ? — I have no reason to suppose that. 
 
 4532. Mr. Scrape.] Do I understand you to say, that the cases that you tested in 
 this manner, were cases, any of them, of labourers with very large families? — Yes. 
 
 202. c 3 4^,33. And 
 
22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. I'. Kay, Esq. 4533- And in those cases the income had increased? — In those cases, in that 
 w. u. particular district, the incomes had increased. 
 
 4534- Mr. Slana/.'] There w?is more labour given to the children than there 
 
 13 March 1838. ^.j,s"before ?— Exactly. 
 
 4,535. And more piece-work r— Certainly ; I have not been asked the question, 
 but I think it desirable to state, that there was in that district a certain amount 
 of greater facility than there is in all districts ; and I do so in order that what is 
 drawn from mo may include all the material facts. I therefore wish to say, that 
 in Hadlcigh there was a silk factory, in which the children were extensively 
 
 employed ; ]>ut it was stated to mo by Mr. >- and other gentlemen, that the 
 
 projectors of that factory could not have filled the factory M ith children before the 
 Poor Law came into operation in the Cosford Union ; and that he obtained children 
 very nmch as a consequence of the desire there was on the part of the parents 
 that the children should ]n-ocure employment ; and the desire there was on the ])art 
 of the occupiers to send them to profitable employment; so that I think there 
 was a certain amount of employment in that district which does not exist in every 
 district. 
 
 4536. Mr Hodges.] Are you aware of the state of things in Framlingham, in 
 Suffolk ? — I have never been able to make such an investigation in Framlindiam. 
 
 4537. That is in your district, is it not ? — Yes. 
 
 4538. Is Framlingham in a imion ? — In the Plomesgate union. 
 
 4,539. Have you ever heard it stated that, in consequence of the discontinuance 
 of out-door relief, very great distress has been occasioned to the labouring classes, 
 and that the resident clergy have been exceedingly burthcned by ajipeals to their 
 charity, which they have found it impossible to resist ? — On the contrary ; I have 
 here an apjdication from the board of guardians of the Plomesgate Union, in tlie 
 following terms : " At the board of guardians held yesterday " (this is dated the 
 7tli of JNIarch of this year— present, various individuals who are stated,) " in 
 pursuance of a notice given on the 20th day of February last by the vice-chaii-man 
 and aflixed for the subsequent two weeks in the usual place in the board-room, it 
 was resolved, non. con., on the motion of the vice-president, seconded by Mr. 
 George Edwards, as follows, ' That a letter shall be written by the clerk to the 
 Poor Law Commissioners to the effect following: — :The board of guardians of this 
 union, convinced by the practice and exi^erience of two years of the benefit con- 
 ferred on the district by the refusal of out-door relief to the able-bodied poor, and 
 satisfied that the strict observance of this rule is highly advantageous to the 
 labouring class, desire to secure the board against any de})arture from the salutary 
 course hitherto pursued in this respect, and to give to their practice for the past 
 the sanction of a law for the future. For this purpose, they request that the Poor 
 Law Commissioners \y'il\ be pleased to issue their order to this union, prohibiting 
 relief out of the workhouse to all poor not coming under one of the following 
 descriptions, viz. : 1st, aged infirm persons, who are partially or wholly disabled ; 2nd, 
 widows with children too young to W'Ork ; 3rd, widows in the first six months of 
 widowhood ; 4th, illegitimate children of women who are in actual service, at 
 wages not sufficient to maintain such children ; 5th, cases of sickness, accident, or 
 urgent temporary necessity; 6th, that new cases of non-resident paupers be not 
 entertained, without an order of removal.' " That is an application to the Poor 
 Law Commissioners, without the slightest hint or suggestion on my part, entirely 
 originating with the board of guardians, and expressive of their perfect conviction 
 that the law is operating for the welfare of the poorer classes in that neighbour- 
 hood in which Framlingham is. That union has been fonned for two years and 
 some months, 
 
 4540. Mr. Baines.^ Are there any clerg}Tnen in that union who act as 
 guardians ? — I am not quite certain whether any clerg}aneu do act as members of 
 the board of guardians. I think not. 
 
 4541. Mr. Slancy.] Is that a rural district entirely ? — Entirely so. 
 
 4542. How many may the population of that union be ? — I think about 21,000. 
 4,543. Mr. Estcourt.'] Are you of the same opinion with that board of guardians, 
 
 that such benefit has been derived by the labouring classes? — Absolutely so. 
 
 4544. Lord John RussellJ] Supposing the law not to be interfered with, do you 
 expect that the operation of it would tend to improve the condition of the labour- 
 ers, and that it would work better without any extraordinary events or accidents 
 happening in the next year, and the following year, than it has in the past year ? — 
 I have not the slightest doubt of it. 
 
 4545. And 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 23 
 
 4.545. And on the contrary, supposing that the law was much interfered with, 7. p. Kay, Esq. 
 and its operation disturbed by a recurrence to any thing like the alloM ance sy^-tem, m. d. 
 
 what do you think would be the effect ? — The best answer that I can give to that 
 
 is a reference to the fact, that in my district the Poor Law Commissioners have '3 ^Jarch i8;}8. 
 only issued tM O orders to any of the boards of guardians ; the operation of the 
 
 law, therefore, entirely depends upon the opinions of the several boards, and 
 throughout the district the law is, I believe, as fully carried into effect as probably 
 in anv district of England ; that is not in consequence of any interference from 
 myself or from the Poor Law Commissioners, but solely fi-om the operation of tho 
 conviction of the guardians ; out-door relief in every union throughout Norfolk 
 and Suffolk, Avith the exception of two or three unions has been absolutely re- 
 frained from to able-bodied men during the late snow-storm ; and I have, from 
 chairmen of various unions, letters assuring me that the effect of that has been to 
 provide employment, where otherwise the men would have been thrown out of 
 emplo}Tnent, and thus to secure to them an income from wages instead of an 
 income from the poor-rate ; those letters also state that the boards of guardians, 
 certain of them, are most anxiovis that there should be no recurrence whatever to the 
 allowance system ; the application which I have already put into the possession of 
 the Committee from the board of guardians of the Plomesgate Union is to be taken 
 as evidence of the fear of that board of guardians on going out of office, lest any 
 of their successors should not have the same strong conviction of the law as they have. 
 
 4.546. Mr. Mills?^ Do you agree in all the suggestions made in this letter of the 
 board of guardians? -I cannot say so positively, because there are certain things 
 excepted here which I think are needlessly excepted. 
 
 4.547. They recommend that, in the case of illegitimate children of women who 
 are in actual service at wages not sufficient to maintain such children, relief shoiUd 
 be afforded out of the workhouse ? — I observe that ; and in that respect I should 
 not adhere to the opinion of the board of guardians. 
 
 4548. You would still adhere to the letter of the law in that respect? — Certainly. 
 
 4,549. Mr. Hod()es.'\ With reference to this paper, there is an exception under 
 the fifth head, "Urgent temporary necessity; " did they explain to you what they 
 meant by that, or have you any means of knowing what their meaning was ? 
 — I believe that by this might be meant, if any calamitous accident befel a 
 labourer, if a vagrant were found in extreme necessity in any remote parish in the 
 union requiring immediate assistance, if very urgent illness occuiTed in the family 
 of a labourer requiring immediate attention for the preservation of life, or some- 
 thing of that kind ; but though it is not easy for me completely to define that in a 
 formula, the cases are quite obvious to those who have practical experience in the 
 working of the law. 
 
 45.50. You think they did not allude to cases in which a family were, for a 
 considerable period of time, deprived of work, from a continuance of bad weather, 
 or any other causd over which the labourer has no control ? — On the contrary, this 
 letter came from that union at the close of the snow-storm, where, though I 
 had not visited them for some months, because I had been occupied by urgent 
 duties elsewhere, the board of guardians, after discussion, determined to relieve 
 no case of able-l>odied men out of the workhouse. 
 
 45.51. Lord John Russell.^ Suppose the case of a labourer being unable to 
 ■work from illness, and two or three of the children were ill at the same time, 
 would you consider that a case in which relief might be given out of the work- 
 house } — In all cases where the heads of the family are ill, they are relieved, if the 
 board consider them in indigent circumstances, and if the families are ill, relief is 
 given to the individuals, if the guardians conceive that they are in indigent circum- 
 stances. 
 
 4.5.52. Suppose the case of a mother being ill, and three of the children sick of 
 the measles, should you think that an order that the children should not be 
 relieved without going into a separate workhouse from the mother, was a proper 
 exercise of the discretion of the guardians ? — It would never be done in my district. 
 
 45.53. Mr. Liddell-I What was the duration of the snow-storm in Norfolk and 
 Suffolk ? — Six or seven weeks. 
 
 4.554. Mr. JBolling.] With respect to that agricultural union into which you 
 made an inquiry, did you institute an inquiry into the amount of saving of the 
 poor-rate, anri the amount paid to the families ? — Not exactly so ; I ascertained, 
 in the year 1833-4, what was the amount of money paid to each person from the 
 poor-rate, and f also ascertained what were the wages and the amount of employ- 
 ment given to those individuals in that year, and to the family, and I further ascer- 
 202. c 4 tained. 
 
24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 /. P. Kay, Esq. taincd what amount of relief he had received in the year precedinf^ March 1837, 
 
 ^' and what had been his employment, and what his wages, and the employment and 
 
 , M 1 ,fcoQ tl^^ wages of the individuals in his family at that period. 
 13 March I030. _ . i i . ■, 
 
 45.55. Mr. JSloney.j You have stated that in those districts the working classes, 
 
 you think, are on the whole much better off, and on the whole, from the change of 
 system, their gains are greater, taking the whole family together, than was the 
 case formerly; do you not think that as they are more dejjendent than they for- 
 merly were upon their own exertions, it would l)e beneficial to them if the advan- 
 tages of savings' banks were brought more clearly and more distinctly before 
 them in the rural districts, in villages and so on, than has been hitherto done? — 
 I have some tables here, showing the amount of the sums deposited in the savings' 
 banks of Norfolk and Suffolk for the six years preceding 2()th November 1836, 
 which I obtained fi-om the National Debt Office, and it will be found in the year 
 1836 there has been a considerable increase in the number of depositoi-s and the 
 amount of deposits. 
 
 [T/ie Witness delivered in the smne. — Vide Appendix (E. 1 h 2.)] 
 
 45.56. Mr. Estcourt.'] You said that in only two unions under your superinten- 
 dence has the peremptory rule been sent down from the Commissioners? — Certainly. 
 
 4557. But you said that in all the unions under your superintendence that rule, 
 though not formally sent to them, is acted upon ? — With the exception of three or 
 four unions, in which a certain amount of exception Mas permitted during the 
 pressure of the recent severe weather, where there was a certain moderate de- 
 parture from the observance of the inile, but in the great majority of the unions 
 there has been a perfect observance of the rule. 
 
 4558. Previously to the severe weather was that rule adhered to in those unions 
 you have last spoken of? — In one of those unions, I think I may say in two, I 
 had considerable suspicion, though I did not make mimite inquiry, that it was not 
 adhered to, that there were certain exc'eptions, but the practice of boards of 
 guardians, almost universally, is not to admit exceptions. 
 
 4559. That, therefore, is the case in the unions under your superintendence, 
 that the peremptory rule is virtually acted upon, though in only two instances it 
 has been formally sent down? — Yes. 
 
 4560. Do you think, therefore, that the board of guardians under your superin- 
 tendence have exercised a wise discretion in carrying out the principles of this 
 law? — I do. 
 
 456 1 . Do you think that there would have been any necessity for sending down 
 to those two boards of guardians the peremptory rule ? — In one case it was applied 
 for ; in the other case, the circumstance of sending it down arose from a very con- 
 siderable departure from the ordinary custom of the district, and a memorial was 
 presented from the magistrates and certain of the guardians of the union, requesting 
 the Commissioners to issue the rule ; it was issued upon their request, because a 
 certain other portion of the board were very desirous of giving out-door relief. 
 
 4562. Do you not think that, such being the case, the discretion of the board of 
 guardians in strictly adhering to the principles of the law may be relied upon ? — 
 I should say, in my district, looking to the present state, that the board of guardians 
 have exhibited very great intelligence and exceeding fidelity in their application to 
 
 , their duties ; but, looking to the future, it is impossible to say what motives might 
 
 not interfere, in the course of time, with the operations of those boards ; and I 
 think the best proof that that suspicion does not rest Avith me alone, is the 
 application made from the board of Plomesgate Union, which I have already read 
 to the Committee, shoAving that, before they go out of office, they are jealous of 
 what may be done by their successors, if the law is left uncertain, and they Avish 
 that the greatest possible security should be provided, in order that there should be 
 no relapse to the vicious practices of the allowance system. 
 
 4563. Lord JoJm Russell.'] Do you find that the attendance at the board of 
 guardians grows slacker than it was ? — I do not find, at periods wdien there are 
 important duties to perform, the attendance at the board of guardians does grow 
 slacker. I have here, which I accidentally selected from my papers, an account 
 of the average attendance at one board of guardians, which was printed by the 
 board, and circulated in their district, showing the attendances at the board 
 of guardians of the Wangford Union ; and I find that the average number of 
 attendants was 19^ during the whole year. 
 
 4564. At the weekly meetings ? — Yes. 
 
 [The Witness delicered in the same. — Vide Appendix (F.)] 
 , 4565. Mr. 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 2.5 
 
 456.V Mr. Miles.] What are tlie number of guardians ?— I think rather more /. p. Kay, Esq. 
 than 30, but I do not quite remember. °- 
 
 4566. Mr. Estcourt.] Do you not think that, supposing the peremptory rule — - """" 
 were not sent to the board of guardians, if they were disposed to act contrary to ^3 ^^'"'^^ • 
 the principles of the Act, immediate notice could be taken by the Assistant- 
 commissioner, and a superintending direction by the Commissioners in London, to 
 
 prevent it ? — That disposition might not affect a single board ; it might affect the 
 boards of an entire district ; if it affected merely a single board, I should have 
 considerable confidence in the personal interference of the Assistant-commissioner, 
 and the explanations which he might make to the board might induce them to 
 adopt the pro\-isions of the law ; but if it occurred throughout the boards of an 
 entire district, it is quite obvious that it would be impossible for the Assistant- 
 commissioner to procure such a result ; and I do not desire to put forward the 
 example of Norfolk and Suffolk as one which would apply to other districts of 
 England. I think it will be remembered by the Committee, that the occupations 
 in Norfolk and Suffolk are generally large ; that the occupiers are men of capital 
 and great skill, and that probably there is a larger average amount of intel- 
 ligence in the board ; and certainly there has been the utmost attention to their 
 duties ; probably that which has occurred in Norfolk and Suffolk could not be 
 hoped to occur in every district throughout the countiy. 
 
 4567. L^pon the whole, you think it desirable to restrain the exercise of the 
 discretion of the guardians by the issue of the peremptory rule ? — Hitherto I have 
 not, myself, applied in any case for the issue of the rule to any board of guardians 
 in my district, with the exception of one, in which I merely supported the applica- 
 tion from the members of the board, and therefore, up to the present period, I 
 have not found the slightest necessity for the exercise of the authority of the Poor 
 Law Commissioners ; but I cannot help saying that I think that necessity might 
 arise at any moment, and if the advantage of the law were to be jeopardized by the 
 feeling of any individual board or any district, I think it would be incumbent upon 
 the Poor Law Commissioners to issue their rule. 
 
 4.568. Chairman.] May it not be desirable, under particular circumstances, to 
 relieve the board of guardians from the responsibility, even where their convictions 
 may be in favour of the peremptory rule, by issuing it ? — Certainly ; and such 
 feeling has been expressed to me, but I have thought it so useful that the operation 
 of the law, resting solely upon the conviction of the boards of guardians, should be 
 permitted, that I have declined for tlie ])resent acceding to the wishes of certain 
 boards, that they should be relieved from the responsibility. 
 
 4569. Mr. Baines.] Before the new law came into existence, was there not a 
 great dissimilarity in the practice of administering the law in different parts of the 
 country ? — Certainly. 
 
 4.570. And yet they were all under the same law ?— The same law, though there ' 
 were modifications of the law, which were adopted in different parts of the country 
 by special acts, at the discretion of the parishioners, in applying for particular 
 statutes to come into force in their districts. 
 
 4571. But, with the exception of those local Acts, if there was a great dissimi- 
 larity before in the mode of administering the law, they being, with the exception 
 of those Acts, all under the same law, is it not likely that if there were not a 
 superintending power, by which uniformity is kept uj), they wouhl degenerate into 
 the same course of pi-actice again ? — 1 have no hesitation in saying so ; and at the 
 present I must say, that the cordiality that exists between various boards of 
 guardians and myself personally, and the confidence which they express in the 
 Poor Law Commissioners, is probably, in some respects, a lucky accident which 
 cannot be always expected to continue ; if, from any circumstances whatever, the 
 feelings or views of individuals changed, it is quite apparent to me that the Legis- 
 lature should insist \x\)on its view of the principles being carried into effect, and 
 not leave it to the jurlgment of each individual board. 
 _ 4572. Mr. Scrape.] You have stated, that the relief of the able-bodied, exclu- 
 sively, in the workhouse, when carried into full effect, had a direct effect upon the 
 rate of wages, tending to raise them, by a sort of compulsory influence on the 
 occui)iers of property in the parish to which the labourer belonged? — I have 
 stated, that the law a])peared to me to impose upon the board of guardians one of 
 three alteniatives, the maintenance of the labourer, with sufficient employment 
 and sufficient wages, the maintenance of the labourer at double the cost in the 
 
 D workhouse, 
 
26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kai/, Esq. workliousc, or the provision of the means of removing tlie labourer to other 
 »• parishes. 
 
 4573- The onus of maintaining the labourers sent to the workhouses falls not 
 13 March 1838. yp^jj board of guardians, collectively, but upon the rate-})ayers of the different 
 parishes to which they belong When I speak of the guardians, I speak of them 
 as the representatives of the parishes. 
 
 4574. That influence, you say, has operated powerfully in theHadleigh district? 
 — Certainly, in improving the incomes of the labourers, by providing employment. 
 
 4575. That influence, to whatever extent it prevails, depends upon the size of 
 the parish and the amount of rate in it ; for example, in a large parish, that influ- 
 ence will be very much diluted, as affecting each rate-payer, whereas, in a small 
 parish, each would have a proportionately stronger interest in diminishing the 
 rate ? — I think that, in a large parish, that influence w'lil be most sensibly felt, in 
 the course of time, in this way ; in a large parish, when evils arise, they are 
 proportioned to the size of the parish ; a bad system of administration will create 
 a very large evil in a large parish ; but a bad system of administration will create 
 absolutely less evil in the small parish, so that the interests of individuals are 
 brought into play ecpially in a large parish as in a small. 
 
 4576. Take the case of an able-bodied labourer, with a large family, applying 
 to the board for relief, on the ground that the wages which he receives are 
 insufficient to maintain his family ; would not the board of guardians take into 
 consideration the amount of his earnings, generally, and form their own opinion 
 as to their sufficiency for the maintenance of his family, and, upon that opinion, 
 either refuse or admit him to the workhouse? — Certainly. 
 
 4577. Supposing that they admitted him, how would that admission have any 
 direct influence upon his employer, so as to induce him to raise his wages, unless 
 his payment to the rate of the parish, by which the man should be supported, bore 
 a certain sensible proportion ? — It would not have all the effect which practically 
 does obtain, if the connexion between the employer and the labourer were one, sim- 
 ply of interest and not to a certain extent of feeling ; but I believe that one of the 
 greatest benefits derived from the Poor Law Amendment Act has been by an 
 increase, first, of the industry and the fidelity of the labourer, and then by making it 
 more obviously the interest of the employer to substitute much more healthful 
 relations between the employer and the labourer than those which previously 
 existed. It is not merely the nominal amount of wages which must be taken into 
 account, but the influence of the fear of losing an industrious and faithful servant, 
 who has obtained an acquaintance with the peculiar modes of employment prac- 
 tised by his master, and has obtained a sort of permanent situation upon his farm ; 
 all these things must be taken into account besides the simple pecuniary interest. 
 
 4578. Are there not, in most rural parishes, certain persons among the em- 
 ployers upon whom, from the dullness of their intellect, or from the selfishness of 
 
 * their minds, those feelings are not likely to have any great effect, and who would 
 prefer continuing the inferior rate of wages to an increase of wages, even though 
 the consequence of such refusal should be an increase of rate to the parish? — I 
 think there are such individuals ; but their dullness, or their selfishness, would 
 probably lead them to employ the single men and the men with small families, as 
 ' a means of escaping from the necessity of providing an increase of income for the 
 
 labourer ; but a labourer with a large family is compelled, having a larger amount 
 of responsibility, to exercise a larger amount of forethought and industry ; and 
 such persons become the trust-worthy servants in husbandry, who recommend 
 themselves by those qualities to superior situations, with intelligent and humane 
 masters, and who, by those qualities, retain those situations. 
 
 4579. Practically, have you not found that there are individuals in those 
 parishes who hold out in that way, and adhere to a low rate of wages, refusing to 
 bring them up to the higher level, which the more intelligent of their neighbours 
 have resorted to ? — I believe there are exceptions to every rule, and I should not 
 be disposed to deny that there are exceptions to the rule which I have stated ; but 
 I think it not necessary to state the exceptions which are admitted, but to state 
 the rule. 
 
 4580. In those cases of presumed inadequate wages, the workhouse relief is 
 applied by the board of guardians, and in that way a direct effect is produced upon 
 wages by the action of the board ? — If by wages is understood, which I wish to 
 be understood, the annual amount of the income of the labourer from en]})loy- 
 ment, that is the case. 
 
 4.5S1. You 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 27 
 
 45S1. You admit that the influence is diminished in proportion to the extent of j. p. i^ay, Esq. 
 the parish, and the number of occupiers in it? — In a series of yeai'S, I do not m.d. 
 
 admit that ; in a series of years, I believe that the occupiers generally will find 
 
 that it is their interest, whether in a large parish or a small, to adopt correct '3 March 183F 
 methods of administration. In a small parish, where there is a smaller amount of 
 intelligence, and where there are needy farmers, it is obvious that a larger period 
 must be permitted to elapse for the stage of transition, during which the adjust- 
 ment of the income to the wants of the family must occur ; but I think the good 
 fortune of my district is, that we have a large amount of capital and of intel- 
 ligence among the yeomen of the district. 
 
 4582. Do not you think, that if the parishes of every union were provided for 
 the purposes of settlement and rating, the interest of each, in keeping the 
 labourers out of the workhouse, would be so far diluted that you could not com- 
 pel them to increase the incomes of the labourers ? — It is quite obvious, that 
 before that could occur, which is alluded to in the question, there ought to be, 
 from the prolonged influence of the law, a diffusion of the population throughout 
 the country, to all the profitable fields of employment, so as to prevent any local 
 congestions when that diffusion had occurred. I can conceive nothing but 
 advantage to arise from freeing the labourers fi-oni the bondage of the law of set- 
 tlement. 
 
 4583. Lord John Russell.^ Do you mean altogether? — I believe, ultimately, 
 altogether. 
 
 4.584. Mr. Scrope.] And you look forwai'd to a time, in fact, when that ope- 
 ration of the workhouse system upon wages will no longer be necessary ? — Cer- 
 tainly, because I believe it to be necessary only when large classes of persons 
 have to be educated in the knowledge of their true interests, and when certain 
 districts have to be relieved from the natural consequences of the previously 
 existing system. 
 
 4.585. Mr. Miles.l You have stated that in one particular district you minutely 
 inquired as to the increase or decrease of the annual earnings of families since the 
 passing of the Poor Law Amendment Act, and since the workhouse system was 
 in operation ; can you give the Committee any distinct evidence ; taking, for 
 instance, a man and his wife and four children, what would be their earnings per 
 week through the year? — I have the result of an inquiry which I conducted 
 to a veiy considerable extent concerning the income of families, first concerning 
 the amount of wages paid for various kinds of work, for which the authorities are 
 given ; and, in connexion with that, an account of the income from every variety of 
 emplojTnent, both of the head of the family, the wife, and the children, as far as it 
 occurred in the books of the occupier, and as far as he was cognizant of the 
 resources of the family ; but I should desire to state, in connexion with this, that 
 I do not think that any such inquiry can be absolutely exhaustive, and that there 
 are a variety of sources of income which elude observation, even by the master 
 who employs the whole of the family, and that in many of those cases I have very 
 little doubt that the masters who made to me the returns, in answer to the 
 circular, have not been able to collect all the sources of income from which the 
 labourer had derived wages ; this inquiry extends to 539 labourers' families, and it 
 was obtained by sending questions generally to the vice-chairman of the boards of 
 guardians, who gave them to some of the intelligent farmers of the district who 
 keep accounts of the wages of their labourers, and who gave a series of answers to 
 the tabular form of inquiry, from which a classification of results has been made 
 from those districts ; if the Committee desire to have that, I should be glad tjp 
 
 put it in. ^XJif, Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Appendix (G).] 
 
 4.586. But, taking the sources of income at which you have been able to arrive, 
 can you now state to the Committee what would be the average earnings of a man 
 and wife and four children, in that particular district ? — I think that the answers 
 to those inquiries would enable the Committee to determine what was that average 
 income. 
 
 4587. Taking the average of the expense for a man, a woman and four children, 
 in the different workhouses and unions that you have formed through Norfolk and 
 Suffolk, can you state what it would l>e per week ? — It would be 18.^., a week, for six 
 individuals, or abf)ut 50/. a year; and I found, in this inquiry, that of 120 families, 
 whose numl)fT of children averaged three and seven-tenths to a family, the annual 
 income was 35/. Qs. Old. 
 
 202. D 2 4588. So 
 
'28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 J. P. Kay, Esq. 4,588. So that when that becomes apparent in the parish, of course the farmers 
 ^- °- must see that it is infinitely more to their advantage to give decent wages to 
 
 1 Mar h 18 8 ^^^^^^^''^g than, at such a price, to maintain a man and his wife and four 
 
 13 arc 1 3 . children in the workhouse ? — The objections which I hear in the boards of guardians 
 to the admission of the families in the workhouse are, not of the injustice to the 
 labourers but to the employers ; and I believe the largest amount of compulsion 
 which occurs, is upon the employers and not upon the labourers. 
 
 4589. Mr. Scrope.'] Then, practically, there is in that district no indisposition 
 on the part of the labourers to resort to the workhouses ? — There is this indispo- 
 sition, that a workhouse is less desirable than an income from the wages of inde- 
 pendent industry, and that a man would prefer employment to going into the 
 workhouse ; if it were not so, the workhouse would be altogether inefficacious, and 
 would be a nuisance. 
 
 4.590. The farmers believe that he would go into the workhouse, or they would 
 not increase his wages with a view to keep him out of it ? — They are certain that 
 he would go into the workhouse, rather than incur a certain amount of necessity. - 
 4591. Chairman.'] You said that the rule prohibiting relief to the able-bodied 
 is in general operation in your district? — Certainly ; the boards of guardians have 
 observed that rule, though no orders have been issued. 
 
 4.592. That is, not been issued by the Commissioners? — Certainly not. 
 
 4.593. You have stated that the result of your experience, and of chairmen of 
 the boards of guardians, is, that the effect of observing that rule has been advanta- 
 geous to the labourers? — Certainly. 
 
 4.594. Have you ever made any inquiry as to the state of crime in that 
 district since the change in the law ? — I very recently applied to the governors 
 of the gaols of Norfolk and Suffolk, in consequence of rumours which I per- 
 ceived in certain of the public prints, that crime was increased in consequence of 
 the administration under the Poor Law Amendment Act ; and I procured from 
 the governors of the gaols in Norfolk and Suffolk, a return of the persons who had 
 been committed and convicted for felonies since the year 1830, and the number of 
 persons who had been committed and convicted of misdemeanors sincethat period. I 
 find the number of persons committed for misdemeanors has increased, from the year 
 1830, from 1,792 persons committed for misdemeanors and 1,727 persons convicted 
 for misdemeanors, to the year 1834, when the number was 2,385 persons committed 
 for misdemeanors and 2,339 convicted for misdemeanors ; and that from the year 
 1834 to October 1837, it had diminished to 1,431 persons committed for mis- 
 demeanors and 1,418 convicted for misdemeanors, being a diminution of 900 
 persons out of 2,300. 
 
 4595. Are they periods of the same duration ? — They are annual periods. 
 
 4596. Lord John Russell.] Can you state in each year the number ? — In the 
 year 1830 the returns are not so perfect as to enable me to add them up ; in the 
 year 1831 the number of persons committed for felonies was 1,026, the number 
 of persons convicted for felonies was 676 ; the number of persons committed for 
 misdemeanors was 1,792, the number of persons convicted 1,727. In 1832 the 
 number of persons committed for felonies was 954, the number of persons con- 
 victed 685 ; the number of persons committed for misdemeanors was 1,948, the 
 number of persons convicted was 1,904.. In the year 1833, the number of 
 persons committed for felonies was 912, the number of persons convicted was 
 609 ; the number of persons committed for misdemeanors was 2,101, the number 
 of persons convicted 2,037/ In 1834, the number of persons committed for 
 felonies was 959, the number of persons convicted was 658 ; the number of per- 
 sons committed for misdemeanors was 2,385, the number of persons convicted 
 for misdemeanors was 2,339. In 1835, the number of persons committed for 
 felonies was 877, the number of persons convicted for felonies was 609; the 
 number of persons committed for misdemeanors was 2,159 ; the number of per- 
 sons convicted of misdemeanors was 2,106. In 1836, the number of persons 
 committed for felonies was 1,007, and the number of persons convicted for 
 felonies 697 ; the number of persons committed for misdemeanors 1,869, the 
 number of persons convicted for misdemeanors 1,839. In 1837, the number of 
 persons committed for felonies 915, the number of persons convicted for felonies 
 634 ; the number of persons committed for misdemeanors 1,431, the number of 
 persons convicted for misdemeanors 1418. 
 
 [The Witness delivered in the Paper. — Vide Appendix (H.)] 
 
 4597. Mr. 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 29 
 
 4597. Mr. Miles.] So that, by that return, though the misdemeanors have j. p. Kay, Esq. 
 decreased, your felonies remain the same? — The felonies have not diminished M'D. 
 much, but they have diminished. 
 
 4598. Mr. Scrope.] Have you looked back into former years, in order to ascer- March 183 . 
 tain w hether there was a continued increase of crime up to the year 1 834, looking 
 
 back to the last 40 or 50 years ? — I have not done that ; though I have no doubt 
 that, by applying to the governors, it would be possible to obtain that information ; 
 information from other sources is, I find, not to be obtained in such a form as to 
 furnish the grounds of comparison ; and there is no accurate information to be 
 obtained for a series of years, except fi-om governors of the gaols. 
 
 4599. Are you aware that tables have been made out from the Parliamentary 
 returns, proving that there has been a most frightful increase of crime in the last 
 40 years throughout the kingdom? — I am aware that such returns have been 
 made ; but I do not know the basis upon which they rest ; though I do not doubt 
 that an increase of crime has occurred, I doubt the correctness of the soiirces of 
 information, because I have attempted to get the information from similar sources 
 of information, and have failed. 
 
 4600. Chairman.] What diet have you generally in the workhouses of your dis- 
 trict ? — There is no uniform dietary in the workhouses of Norfolk and Suffolk ; 
 if the boards of guardians desire to take any one of the Commissioners' dietaries, 
 they adopt that ; and if they desire any change in the dietary, consistent with the 
 principles upon which the Commissioners proceed, that has been always conceded 
 to them, excepting that it has not been considered desirable to permit that 
 spirituous or fermented liquors should be given, except by direction of the medical 
 officer. 
 
 4601. Have the boards taken any of those dietaries which have been recom- 
 mended by the Commissioners ? — Yes. 
 
 4602. Making modifications in them, according to the custom and habits of the 
 country ? — Yes. 
 
 4603. Which modifications have been consented to by the Commissioners ? — 
 Invariably, upon a recommendation by the board of guardians. 
 
 4604. What have you observed to be the health of the inmates living upon the 
 dietaries ? — I have applied myself to obtain information upon that subject, which 
 is a very difllicult subject to investigate, and I have some tables relating to the 
 mortality in the workhouses, which it might be interesting for the Committee 
 to be in possession of. It is quite evident that the mortality in the workhouses 
 must necessarily be high, because a large number of the individuals who are ad- 
 mitted into workhouses are either aged or infirm, or are sick, at the ])eriod of their 
 admission, or are jjcrsons whose indigence is the consequence of improvidence, 
 and probably of vice, or they are infants who have been exposed by dissolute 
 mothers to the inclemency of the season, or have been improperly nursed, and 
 who are brought into the houses either in a state of great del)ility or in a state 
 of actual suffering from disease. Now I have hero some tables, giving a great 
 variety of j)articulars concerning the mortality in the workhouses of Norfolk and 
 Suffolk, which show that the mortality principally occurs above the age of GO, 
 and under the age of 10, and in proportions and under circumstances which obvi- 
 ously indicate tliat the sources of mortality are such as I have described. The 
 tables are, perhaps, too elaborate to be the subject of any verbal statement, and 
 therefore I should desire to put them in for the infonuation of the Committee. 
 
 [^'Ite Witness delivered in the same. — Vide Apj)cndix (I.)] 
 
 4605. Taking from those tables, or from any other information, the able-bodied 
 inmates of the workhouse, or those who from age or from previous habits of life are 
 liable to disease, more than the generality of ])ersons, do you observe that the 
 mortality in the houses is such as to give you any reason to suspect either the 
 quality or quantity of the diet are imi)roj)er? — 1 am quite satisfied that the 
 workhouses in Norfolk and Suffolk are n)()st healthy establishments, taking into 
 account all the circumstances affecting them of that kind. 
 
 4G06. Mr. Baines.] Have you any comparison of the old workhouses and the 
 new, or do your tables ap])ly only to workhouses under the new system ? — 1 have 
 no means of ac(|uiring information concerning the old workhouses, at least not 
 information of that character which would enable me to form a comj)anson between 
 the ohi and new workhouses ; the books of the incorjioratiou were not kept in 
 «uch a way as to enable me to form the slightest conijiarison between the results 
 obtained from the new unions and those from the old incorj)orations. 
 
 1) 3 4607. Do 
 
30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 /. P. Kay, Esq. 4607. Do you kiiow any sources from which that information could be derived? 
 M. D. _i think not 
 ~~~ , „ ■ 4608. Chairman.'] You are in the habit of croinff to those workhouses very fre- 
 13 March 1833. quently?-Very frequently. ^ 
 
 4609. Independently of those returns which indicate the deaths, is there any 
 thing in the general appearance of the inmates which leads you to suppose that 
 they are unhealthy ? — On the contrary, the children are all in blooming health ; 
 and it is subject of constant remark in the boards of guardians, what a different 
 appearance there is in the complexion and state of the children who are admitted 
 and those who have been in for any period ; the aged paupers are, putting out of 
 account the infirmities incident to their age, and those which they brought with 
 them into the workhouse, in my experience, all in a good state of health. 
 
 4610. There is nothing, then, in the circumstances of the workhouse, as far as 
 they have come under your observation, which leads you to believe that the 
 diet is unwholesome ? — On the contrary, that it is such as leads to the support of 
 health. 
 
 4611. That being generally a diet recommended by the Commissioners, with 
 modifications according to the previous habits of the country, assented to by the 
 paupers ? — Certainly. 
 
 4612. Mr. Estcourt.'] For the most part, is that dietary the lowest of those 
 found in the Commissioners' Report? — There is every kind of variety in the 
 district, and my memory does not serve me to state which of the particular 
 dietaries most prevail. 
 
 4613. Mr. Baines.'] Do you know any thing of the dietary in the Manchester 
 workhouse ? — I do not. 
 
 4614. Mr. Boiling.'] Has this alteration of the dietaries been one that has been 
 more substantial than the former ones ? — The alterations have not been such as to 
 increase materially the amount of the dietary. 
 
 4615. Nor the amount of expense ?— No, it is a change of quality rather than 
 of quantity. 
 
 4616. Mr. Fielden.] You have spoken of three alternatives, one of which was 
 the removal of the poor to other places ; have you been in the habit of recom- 
 mending migration from Norfolk and Suffolk to the manufacturing districts ? — 
 Certainly. 
 
 46 1 7 . In the Appendix to the First Report of the Commissioners, I find that 
 you have given a table, which states the " Quantity of steam power, either recently 
 erected, but not supplied with hands, or which is ordered and will be in operation 
 in a year and a half or two years, in the cotton district of Lancashire and its imme- 
 diate vicinity ;" then follow the names of the townships or parishes which form 
 the centre of the district so called, the number of firms, and the number of horse 
 power ; and, at the foot of the table, there is this, " A further statement, com- 
 prising every engine, its power, the name of the firm to which it either has been or 
 will be supplied, the situation of the mill, the manufacturing process in which 
 this moving force is to be employed, and the authority (generally a civil engineer, 
 resident in the cotton district,) whence this information was derived, were all 
 furnished to the Commissioners ; this information was, how^ever, for obvious reasons, 
 confidentially communicated, and cannot, therefore, be published in this Report ; 
 I may, however, add, that this power is almost entirely intended for spinning, 
 or for spinning and weaving ;" can you furnish the Committee with that information ? 
 — I can furnish the Committee with the documents which I submitted to the Com- 
 missioners, if they consider that no injury would arise to the public service ; but 
 before doing so, I should desire to state this, that though I have perfect confidence 
 in the whole results being correct, I do not consider that the way in which the 
 information was necessarily derived by me, in the short period in which it was 
 obtained, would make each particular statement, as to each individual mill, 
 positively accurate as to the amount of horse power ; with that proviso, I think, 
 the whole statement would be found to be accurate ; in some cases the statement 
 would exceed, in other cases it would be under, because the information was 
 obtained from inquiries of the manufacturers of the district, who stated what their 
 belief was as to the amount of horse power which was about to be provided by 
 some one or other of their neighbours, or of some civil engineer, who told me not 
 merely what was occurring in his own engagements, but in the neighbourhood 
 where he was engaged. 
 
 4618. Whether correct or incorrect, you can furnish that return ? — I can. 
 
 William 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. (1838.) 
 
 William Richard Dickins, called in ; and Examined. 
 
 4619. Mr. Wakley.'] YOU are the person from whom I presented a petition the ji^ Dickins. 
 other day, stating that you had a daughter who was afflicted with idiocy ? — I am. 
 
 4620. WTieredo you reside? — No. 80, Charles-street, Hoxton. 13 March 1838. 
 
 4621. What is your occupation? — A paper-hanger. 
 
 4622. Chairman.~\ Wliat was the nature of your petition ? — That I applied to 
 the parish to receive her, in consequence of her being motherless, and that I am 
 unable to support her, and I ought to keep a person to administer to her wants ; 
 the parish have refused her being admitted, in consequence of her being afflicted. 
 
 4623. WTiat is the parish ? — St. Leonard's, Shoreditch. 
 
 4624. Is that in union ? — I am not aware. 
 
 4625. To whom did you apply? — The board at the workhouse. 
 
 4626. To whom ? — To the committee, the vestry-clerk and so forth, where 
 they were sitting in the workhouse ; I applied first to the vestry-clerk, and he 
 referred me to the committee, on a certain day, which is called the board of guar- 
 dians. 
 
 4627. Where is the committee sitting to whom you applied ? — In the work- 
 house in King-sland-road. 
 
 4628. (To Mr. ChadtvicJc.) Is that parish in union under the Commissioners' 
 orders ? — No, it was placed under the Poor Law Commissioners, but that order is 
 revoked. 
 
 4629. And it now administers relief, not under the order of the Poor Law 
 Commissioners ? — Yes. 
 
 202. 
 
 APPENDIX. 
 
32 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
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ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 
 
 33 
 
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 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 Appendix (G.) — continued. 
 
 Ik proceeding to the inquiry respecting the annual income procured by agricultural labourers throughout Norfolk 
 and Suffolk, the only means of satisfactorily determining this question appeared to me to consist in obtaining from as 
 many farmers as possible an account of the income of the labourers in their own employment. This could not be accom- 
 plished with the necessary accunicy amongst the least skilful and intelligent farmers, because this class keep no accounts, 
 and are not acciistnmed to that minute accuracy in details necessary to render the results valuable. I was tlierefore con- 
 strained to content myself with seeking the information which I desired to collect from a class of farmers which I knew to 
 possess the requisite qualifications for making accurate replies. 
 
 The returns are, therefore, to be accumulated evidence of the average income of labourers employed by farmers of capital, 
 and of more than an average degree of skill, scattered over the whole surface of Norfolk and Suifolk. 
 
 In order to procure these returns, I issued a circular with the following quesiions; and I received 54 replies, prepared 
 with great precision and care. In the replies to the circular, the circumstances of each labourer's family were separately 
 enumerated, his name in each case being given. 
 
 Name ? 
 Age? 
 
 Number of children under 10 years of age, residing at home? 
 Number of children above 10, residing at home? 
 Annual amount of wages for day labour? 
 Annual amount of wages for task-work ? 
 Harvest wages ? 
 
 Annual amount of earnings of wife? 
 Annual amount of earnings of children? 
 Value of corn gleaned ? 
 Rent of house ? 
 
 Has he a garden or allotment, and, if so, of what size? 
 Is he allowed to cut fuel free of charge? 
 Has he any common right? 
 
 Does he keep a pig or a donkey ; if so, has he any, and what, privileges, to enable him to feed his pig or dorikey ? 
 Does he possess any other source of income, and if so, what is its annua! value ? 
 
 The answers to these circulars furnished me with an account of 539 labourers' familes, with sufficient accuracy to enable 
 me to classify the results so as, first, to exhibit the average annual income of each class; and, secondly, to divide that 
 annual income into its elements, in all cases in which the returns are so accurate as to separate day wages, the earnings 
 from task-work, harvest wages, the earnings of the wife, and the earnings of the children from each other, respectively. 
 
 1st Class —Among the 539 labourers thus enumerated, were 36 single men, v/hose average annual income amounted to 
 •25/. 1 s. 4irf. 
 
 In 26 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 1 8 /. los. 6d, 
 In five of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were specified, the average annual amount being 14/. 6s. lod. 
 In 27 of these cases the harvest wages were specified, the average amount being 4/. 195. 45 t/. 
 
 2d Class — In 64 families there were no children, or at least none residing at home; and the average annual income of 
 the family was 30/. 125. loifA 
 
 In 58 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 15/. 12s. 3jC?. 
 
 In 43 of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were specified, the average annual amount being 11/. 15s. 
 
 In 55 of these cases the harvest wages were specified, the average amount being 5/. 1 s. i d. 
 
 In 34 of these case the earnings of the wife were specified, the average annual amount being 3/. 8s. gd. 
 
 In 46 of these cases the value of corn gleaned was specified, the average amount being I'j s. io\d. 
 
 3d Class. — In 1C6 families the children were all under 10 years of age ; the number of children was 475, or 1^ to each 
 family, and the average annual income of the family 32/. 135. id. 
 
 In 143 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 15 15 s. ^\d. 
 In 96 of these cases the earnings obtained by tabk-work were specified, the average annual amount being 14^. 13.5. 7|<f. 
 In 157 of these cases the harvest wages were specified, the annua! average amount being 5/. 10s. 2d. 
 In 71 of these cases ihe earnings of wife were specified, ttie average aimual amount being il. 9s. o\d. 
 In 25 of these cases the earnings of the children were specified, the average annual amount being 2 1. 4s. 
 In 110 cases the value of corn gleaned was specified, the average amount being 185. "j^d. 
 
 4lh Class. — One hundred and twenty families had one child more than 10 years old, and the average annual income 
 amounted to 35/. gs. old. The number of children averaged about 3-;'^ to a family. 
 
 In 108 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 15 \<^s. \ \\d. 
 
 In 90 of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were specified, tiie average annual amount being 13/. 17*. i|</. 
 
 In 113 of these cases the harvest wages were specified, the average amount being 5/. 5s. \o\d. 
 
 In 64 cases the earnings of the wife were specified, the average annual amount being il. lis 'jid. 
 
 In 76 of tliese cases the earnings of the children were specified, the average annual amount being 4/. 6s. if «/. 
 
 In 97 of these cases the value of corn gleaned was specified, the average amount being l /. os. &\d. 
 
 5th Class. — Ninety-two families had two children above ten years of age, with an average annual income of 40/. 10s. 1 d. 
 The number of children averaged 4^-'^ to u family. 
 
 In 84 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 12/. \^s.6\d. 
 
 In 75 of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were specified, the average annual amount being 14/. iSs. 
 
 In 89 of ihefe rases the harvest wages were specified, the average amount being 5/. lis. i\d. 
 
 In 49 of these cases the earnings of the wife were specified, the average annual amount being il. 5 s. l^d. 
 
 In 82 of tliese cases the earnings of the children were specified, the average annual amount being 8/. 17s. /^\d. 
 
 Ip 85 of these cases the value of corn gleaned was specified, the average amount being 1 /. 5s. Q\d. 
 
 6th Class. 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 
 
 41 
 
 6th Class. — Forty-four families had three children above 10, with an average annual income of 45/. iis. gld. The 
 number of children averaged about 5f to a family. 
 
 In4oof these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 13/. i6*. gd. 
 
 In 31 of these cases the earnings obtained by task- work were specified, the average annual amount being 17/. 10 s. lorf. 
 
 In 43 of these cases the harvest wages were specified, the average amount being 5/. 11s. 4|«/. 
 
 In 20 of these casts the earnings of the wife were specified, the average annual amount being 'il. igs, id. 
 
 In 41 of these cases the earnings of the children were specified, the average annual amount being 12/. 17*. 
 
 In 37 of these cases the value of corn gleaned was specified, the average amount being 1 /. 95. 6|c/. 
 
 7th Class. — Fifteen families had four children above 10, with an average annual income of 50^. i8*. 6d. The number 
 of children averaged about seven to a family. 
 
 In 14 of these cases the earnings obtained by day-work were specified, the average annual amount being 2s. 6f rf. 
 In nine of these cases the earnings obtained by task-work were specified, the average annual amount being 
 12/. 135. old. 
 
 In ail these cases the harvest wages were specified, the average annual amount being 5/. 95. o^r/. 
 In three of these cases the earnings of the wife were specified, the average annual amount being 2Z. 35. lod. 
 In 13 of these cases the earnings of the children were specified, the average annual amount being 20/. 3s, S^U. 
 In 13 of these cases the value of corn gleaned was specified, the average amount being 1^. 6f. g^d. 
 
 8th Class. — One family had five children above 10 years old, with an annual income of 42/. 13s., composed of tlie 
 following elemeuts : — £_ ^ ^ 
 
 Earnings obtained by Day- Work - - - - - - - - 146- 
 
 Task-Work 106- 
 
 „ Harvest - -- -- -- -- 65- 
 
 „ Children 10 6- 
 
 Value of Corn gleaned - - 110- 
 
 £.42 13 - 
 
 9th Class. — One family had six children above 10, with an annual income of 52 composed of the following elements :—- 
 Earnings obtained by Day-Work - .- -- -- --£. 28 
 
 „ Harvest --------- - 6 
 
 „ Children 18 
 
 £.52 
 
 In 449 cases the rents were stated, and ihey amounted to 1,602/. 14s. 6J., being on the average 3/. il*. /^^d. 
 Among the 539 cases thus enumerated, 397 families had gardens, in 277 of which instances the size of the gardens was 
 stated; the aggregate amount was 5,463 rods, averaging 19^ rods. Of 64 allotments enumerated, the average size is 
 52I rods. 
 
 One hundred and thirty-six of these families had some fuel free of charge ; 259 had a pig ; 20 a donkey. 
 
 Appendix (H.) — returns from ihe Masteks of County Gaols and Bridewells in Norfolk and Suffolk. 
 
 
 18.30. 
 
 1831. 
 
 1832. 
 
 
 1833. 
 
 
 
 Felonies. 
 
 Misdemeanors. 
 
 Felonies. 
 
 Misdemt'iinors, 
 
 Felonies. 
 
 Misdemeanors. 
 
 Felonies. 
 
 Misdemeanors. 
 
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 45 
 
 189 
 ifly 
 
 174 
 186 
 
 131 
 >3' 
 
 96 
 
 81 
 
 «74 
 
 383 
 
 161 
 
 368 
 
 82 
 113 
 
 23 
 
 60 
 
 68 
 
 17 
 
 168 
 
 330 
 
 37 
 
 160 
 316 
 37 
 
 82 
 105 
 20 
 
 50 
 65 
 
 «5 
 
 259 
 270 
 66 
 
 242 
 2G5 
 66 
 
 Bcccles . . - 
 Hury St. Edmunds 
 l)>9wich ... 
 VVuodbridge - - 
 
 33 
 "37 
 
 30 
 
 27 
 
 76 
 18 
 
 100 
 
 297 
 
 89 
 
 29 
 178 
 102 
 
 38 
 
 19 
 
 >3i 
 
 76 
 32 
 
 109 
 452 
 
 265 
 90 
 
 109 
 446 
 260 
 90 
 
 46 
 
 200 
 129 
 
 35 
 
 40 
 169 
 
 88 
 31 
 
 108 
 
 549 
 306 
 
 98 
 
 108 
 548 
 305 
 98 
 
 44 
 202 
 118 
 
 44 
 
 35 
 150 
 
 89 
 38 
 
 98 
 634 
 286 
 
 84 
 
 98 
 
 626 
 283 
 84 
 
 Totals - - 
 
 
 
 
 
 1,026 
 
 676 
 
 1,792 
 
 1,727 
 
 954 
 
 685 
 
 1,948 
 
 1,904 
 
 912 
 
 609 
 
 2,101 
 
 2,037 
 
 
 1834. 
 
 18.35. 
 
 1836. 
 
 1837. 
 
 Norwicli ... 
 SwafDiam - . - 
 WaUingtiam 
 Wymondhara 
 
 ■340 
 106 
 
 >34 
 21 
 
 921 
 (i? 
 
 87 
 11 
 
 414 
 240 
 329 
 58 
 
 407 
 225 
 3«8 
 
 281 
 
 93 
 103 
 
 3« 
 
 204 
 58 
 60 
 
 23 
 
 426 
 240 
 321 
 58 
 
 421 
 228 
 297 
 58 
 
 268 
 1 10 
 •57 
 
 22 
 
 182 
 76 
 82 
 17 
 
 359 
 177 
 269 
 46 
 
 357 
 168 
 260 
 46 
 
 222 
 "35 
 115 
 46 
 
 150 
 84 
 70 
 29 
 
 286 
 
 153 
 202 
 
 50 
 
 283 
 150 
 200 
 50 
 
 B«xcle» ... 
 Bury St. Edmunds 
 Ipswich . - - 
 \V'i>odl>ridgc 
 
 60 
 146 
 >«6 
 
 37 
 
 54 
 1 1 1 
 
 73 
 34 
 
 122 
 746 
 377 
 99 
 
 122 
 736 
 
 374 
 
 99 
 
 28 
 
 192 
 106 
 43 
 
 23 
 132 
 
 73 
 36 
 
 108 
 
 535 
 384 
 87 
 
 108 
 
 528 
 379 
 87 
 
 48 
 217 
 116' 
 
 69 
 
 30 
 157 
 
 80 
 
 67 
 
 106 
 497 
 332 
 83 
 
 106 
 495 
 324 
 83 
 
 42 
 205 
 102 
 
 48 
 
 32 
 166 
 67 
 36 
 
 57 
 396 
 211 
 
 76 
 
 57 
 392 
 210 
 
 76 
 
 Totals . • 
 
 9.00 
 
 658 
 
 2,385 
 
 2,339 
 
 877 
 
 609 
 
 2.159 
 
 2,106 
 
 1,007 
 
 697 
 
 1,869 
 
 1.839 
 
 915 
 
 634 
 
 1.431 
 
 1,418 
 
 202. 
 
 F 
 
42 
 
 AJ>PEND1X TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE. 
 
 
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ON THE POOR LAW 
 
 AMENDMENT ACT. 
 
 43 
 
 . -sjea.C o.m nEqi ajoui ||i -lagtun^ 
 
 •S.IBJA' QAM ueqi SS3| |l! J3qmn|\i 
 
 •jRa.C 8UO uui|i ss3| |[! jagmnfj 
 
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 •SJE3A o.m uem ajooi ajaqj papi<aj oq-a jagiunjyi; 
 
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 •jnaif auo uEqi ssa( ajaq i pap;s3J og.vv jaqtun^s j 
 
 xjs ueq) ssa[ ajagt papnaj oq/A .laqmnjj 
 
 •sqiuoui aajqi iicqi ssaj ajagi papisaj oqM jaqmn;^ 
 
 auo ueqi s;a[ aiagi papisaj oqM jagainjj; 
 
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 2 
 
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 ■o6 puE 08 uaa.maq jaquin '^ 
 
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 "oS puB ot" uaaAijag jaqmn^ 
 
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 •01 puE 9 uaa Hjaq jaquin^j 
 
 ■S puB z U33A\j3q isquinvj 
 
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 f I Tis-'^ f ^ t¥S'i f f ff ??s>f f f f 
 
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 •91 oj6 oiojj 9|J!9 
 
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 •paipoq-aiqe uaj^ 
 
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 •aunf ipofi puB nonjfi qj5ij uaa^iaq pajiimpe jaqmn^j 
 
 M 
 
 > I I I I I 
 
 202. 
 
 G 
 
44 
 
 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 2 
 
 I 
 
 i 
 
 i 
 
 * 
 
 I 
 
 II 
 3f 
 
 •■j^t! Diu3Jix,i JO pojfj — ii.«oii)(un ssaiiin jo pousj 
 
 •flJt!3^ 0«1 URI(1 310111 ||l J3qilin|\J 
 
 •ji!3/C 3110 uKi() sso| II! joqiunfij 
 
 •itiniom iicqi ssoj jij Jjqiiinf<[ 
 
 ■tqiuoiu aaiqi iiiiqi 6SJ| [|i Jaqiunfj 
 
 •qiiioiii alio limn ssa| ]|i jjqiunnj 
 
 •>|.>3,v\ 3110 iiEin sso| ||i .Mqiim\[ 
 
 •pailiuipn ti3i|w l|i J3'|iim,-^ 
 
 •<.ji;.)\' o.\\\ unqi 3iom aaocn |)3p|Sjj oq.« J3qiiin|\[ 
 
 •SJRO.C 
 
 CM I UEiji soj 3J3qi pjpi<;4i oi]A\ .i.iqiiin\; 
 
 •JK3\ 3110 
 
 llEi|lssn| 3.i3qi pspis.l.i j.iqtiiMivj 
 
 •sqiiioui xi'i iieqi ss3| 3j3qi papisoi m|M jsquiri fsj 
 
 •sqiiioiu 33Ji|i unqi scaj aja g papisaj oqM J 
 
 •qiuom 3IIO unqi SS3[ 3J->i|l papisaj oin\ J3q'-iiii,\r 
 
 •>13D« aiio imqi ss3| 3J.>qi papjsjj oi|/ h jaqiunfj 
 ; 3iii;Cp B HI 3SIIOH "I"' iq"""'n Jaq"!" NT 
 
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 o6 piiE 08 i'33M| iq J3qiiin>J 
 
 •OB piiB iiAa.maq jagiim^j 
 
 0^ pilR O'j ii.ia.wioq jaqninyj 
 
 •og pill! o9 lia^iAMaq jaqiiiiiM 
 
 •o9 pill! oi' iMOAvjsq .laqnlll[^J 
 
 jaqimiM | 
 
 •of' pill! oC lUaAt loq 
 
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 •oc pun 01 iiJOMiJii .laqiunxr 
 
 •01 puK 5 
 
 •5 piiK G injAviaq 
 
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 jii z Japun 
 
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 •6 oj c ttiojj SIJ19 
 
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 - I I I I 
 
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 iifrisffifffisff mmntitm 
 
 •91 OJ 6 cuojj s|J!9 
 
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 fee f - f f - m^f^ o S f f f TCf g^f 
 
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 •paipoq-3|qt! iiai\r 
 
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 a5noq>(JOA\ ui papiians ssaini:)is Jo sasun jo jaquinjyj 
 
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 \ 
 
ON THE POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT. 
 
 45 
 
 
 •age 10 psia— >' "ou>inn ssauiii jo pen vT | 
 
 1 III 1 1 1 1 1 1 t 1 1 1 1 1 i 1 
 
 1 1 1 1 1 til Illlll 
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 U S K l-l S K !/J yj t-i ? 
 
FOURTEENTH REPORT 
 
 FKOM 
 
 SELECT COMMITTEE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 POOR LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 
 
 WITH TIIK 
 
 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 
 AND APPENDIX. 
 
 Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be PrinUd, 
 14 Marcfi 1838. 
 
 [Pncc 6d.'} 
 
 21)2.