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 SPEECH 
 
 ON MOVING FOR LEAVE TO BRING IN A BILL 
 RELATING TO 
 
 UNIYERSITY EDUCATION 
 
 lEELAND. 
 
 By the RIUHT HON. W. E. GLADSTONE, M.P. 
 
 FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY. 
 
 LONDON: 
 JOHN MUKEAY, ALBEMARLE STREET. 
 
 1873.
 
 I-ONDON : 
 
 PRINTED FT VILLIAM CLOWES AKD SONS, STAMFOBD STREET, 
 AND CHARING CROSS.
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 Mr. Gladstone moved, pursuant to notice, that the 
 orders of the day should be postponed until after the 
 notice of motion relating to this subject. 
 
 The motion having been agreed to, 
 
 Mr. Gladstone then moved that the paragraph in the 
 Queen's Speech having reference to Irish University Edu- 
 cation be read. This having been done by the Clerk at 
 the table, the House, on the motion of the right hon, gen- 
 tleman, resolved itself into Committee on the question, 
 Mr. Bon ham-Carter in the chair. 
 
 Mr. Gladstone then rose, amid cheers, and said : Mr. 
 Bonham-Carter, — I rise, Sir, for the third time since the 
 formation of the present Government, to submit to the 
 House in detail proposals respecting Irish affairs, in regard 
 to which I say little in stating that they are vital to the 
 honour and existence of the Government ; but of which I 
 may say also that which is of greater importance — that 
 they are vital to the prosperity and welfare of Ireland. 
 For even if we think that University education is a matter 
 less directly connected with the peace and happiness of the 
 country than others on which we have formerly been called 
 upon more than gnce to proceed, it must be borne in 
 mind that when we look into the far future the wellbeing 
 of Ireland must in a great degree depend on the moral 
 and intellectual culture of her people ; and that in the 
 promotion of that culture the efficiency of her Universities 
 
 B 2
 
 4 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 cannot fail to be a most powerful and effectual instrument. 
 There are, indeed, those who think, and those who say, 
 tlmt Ireland is a barren field on which to spend the 
 efforts of Parliament, and that the more we endeavour 
 to improve its condition the less return is made for our 
 philanthropic labours. In that discouraging opinion the 
 The present Govcmment, however, do not concur. (Cheers.) The state 
 
 condition of Ire- ' ' ^ -' 
 
 land encouraging, gf Ireland at the present moment does not deter us from 
 asking Parliament steadily to prosecute that course on 
 which it has long ago entered. I will not, when I have so 
 much of necessary exposition before me, trouble the House 
 with details on a subject that is only germane to the matter 
 immediately in hand and that does not strictly belong to 
 its essence ; but I may say, with respect to the condition of 
 Ireland, that industry is flourishing, and that according to 
 all appearances — all well-known and ordinary appearances 
 — the best description of wealth in that country, the wealth 
 of the community at large, rapidly increases ; that order is 
 respected, that ordinary crime is less than in England ; that 
 agrarian crime has greatly diminished ; and, as it has often 
 been observed, and observed with truth, that when agrarian 
 crime diminishes in Ireland, for the most part political and 
 treasonable crime increases, I may state with thankful 
 satisfaction that in 1871 treasonable offences in Ireland had 
 sunk to the low number of seven only, and that in 1 872 
 there was not one treasonable offence. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 I must again, as on former occasions, ask for the indul- 
 gence of the House, for I have to enter on a subject of great 
 difficulty, great intricacy, and great complexity of detail ; 
 and it is only by means of that indulgence that I can hope 
 in any degree to succeed in conveying to the mind of the 
 House a clear conception either of the sn^jject itself or of 
 the intentions and proposals of the Government. There is 
 another plea which, if it were needed, I would offer, but 
 which I know is hardly needed — namely, the plea for that 
 favourable and candid consideration which in 1869 and 

 
 IKISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 1870 we so largely experienced ; which enabled us at those 
 epochs to encounter the difficulties we had then to meet, 
 and which, I believe, will now again be granted, and will 
 again enable us to encounter the difficulties with which we 
 now have to deal. 
 
 There is. Sir, a subject of great importance, collateral Kducau^iTin he- 
 to that immediately in hand, to which I will only refer for ^"°''- 
 the sake of putting it aside ; it is that which relates to the 
 intermediate or proprietary schools in Ireland. It has 
 lately been represented to me, with a singular and grati- 
 fying concurrence of opinion, from every quarter repre- 
 senting influence and intelligence in a particular county 
 in Ireland — I mean the county of Limerick — that the 
 greatest necessity exists for legislation with regard to the 
 higher or preparatory schools of that country. I am quite 
 sensible that is the case ; but I am equally convinced that 
 it is impossible for us advantageously to endeavour to 
 mix legislation for the intermediate schools of Ireland with 
 legislation in regard to her Universities. What I wish for .„^ ^ , 
 
 '^ o _ _ _ _ Although hav- 
 
 the present to state is, our free admission that legislation ing claims on the 
 
 ^ , , ~ attention of Par- 
 
 with regard to its higher or preparatory schools, or, at iiament, 
 least, the question how far it may be possible to legislate 
 with regard to its schools, must arise as a necessary con- 
 sequence of the legislation which Parliament may think 
 fit to adopt with respect to the question of University 
 education. I wish further to point out that the course 
 which Parliament may take, and the principles which it 
 may adopt for its own guidance, with respect to University 
 education will be of the utmost advantage to any Govern, 
 ment that may have to frame a measure with regard to 
 the higher or preparatory schools of Ireland. Admitting, 
 therefore, the importance, and even the urgency, of the Must not be 
 subject, I trust I shall be favourably understood when ?he''^que"tion'^ of 
 I say that we think it absolutely necessary to keep it apart cauon!*' ^ 
 from the intricate and difficult question of University 
 education with which we have at present to deal.
 
 6 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 In approaching, Sir, the consideration of this question, 
 it is impossible altogether to put out of view the flow of 
 criticism with respect to the subject itself, and with 
 respect to the intentions and conduct of the Government, 
 which have for some time been almost incessantly brought 
 under the public eye. We have heard much, Sir, of Ultra- 
 Fear of Ultra- montane influence (hear, hear), and it may be well, there- 
 montane influ- . 
 ence. forc — that checr is an additional reason why I should notice 
 
 the point — to refer to it for a moment. I cannot wonder 
 that apprehensions with respect to Ultramontane influence 
 should enter into the minds of the British public whenever 
 legislation affecting the position of the Koman Catholics in 
 Ireland is projected ; and we cannot, T think, be surprised 
 that the influences which appear so forcibly to prevail within 
 the Koman communion should be regarded by a very great 
 portion of the people of this country with aversion, and 
 by some portion of them even with unnecessary dread. It 
 appears to us, however, that we have one course, and one 
 course only to take, one decision, and one only to arrive at, 
 with respect to our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects. Do 
 we intend, or do we not intend, to extend to them the full 
 benefit of civil equality on a footing exactly the same as 
 that on which it is granted to members of other religious 
 Should not de- persuasious ? {Hear, hear.) If we do not, the conclusion is 
 ju8tu:^e ™to "our ^ most gravc ouo ; but if the House be of opinion, as the 
 feik!w^8ubjects! "^ Government are of opinion, that it is neither generous nor 
 politic, whatever we may think of this ecclesiastical influ- 
 ence within the Roman Church, to draw distinctions in 
 matters purely civil adverse to our Roman Catholic fellow- 
 country-men — if we hold that opinion, let us hold it 
 frankly and boldly ; and, having determined to grant 
 measures of equality as far as it may be in our power to 
 do so, do not let us attempt to stint our action in that 
 sense when we come to the execution of that which we 
 have announced to be our design. {Hear, hear.) 
 
 But there really, as I shall explain, is no room for any
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 7 
 
 suspicion of either Ultramontane or any other influence 
 with respect to the measure which I am now about to 
 submit to the House. The truth is that circumstances ment^ prepared 
 entirely independent of our own will have precluded us *^[thout how^g 
 from holding communications Avith any of the large bodies w°urany*^o"°he 
 whicli may be said, as bodies, to be interested in Irish [nlSed inu!^* 
 University education. The Groverning Body of Trinity 
 College, Dublin, have thought fit, in the exercise of their 
 discretion — a discretion which they had a perfect right to 
 exercise — to adopt a policy and to propose a plan of their 
 own, or, at least, to associate themselves with the plan 
 which was proposed in this House by the hon. member for 
 Brighton, with the direct concurrence and sanction of one, 
 perhaps of both, of the members of the Dublin University. 
 That being so, it is obvious that it would not have been 
 consistent with the respect which we owe to that learned 
 body that we should have attempted to induce it by 
 private persuasion to accept a plan of a different character, 
 or that we should have entered into communications with 
 it as to the nature of the proposal which we are about to 
 lay before the House. Under these circumstances the 
 principles of equal dealing prevented us from similar pro- 
 ceedings in any other quarter. Therefore, the door was 
 shut in that direction by no act of ours, but by an 
 act altogether independent of ourselves ; and conse- 
 quently it was plain that the best course for us to take 
 was to look as well as we could to the general justice 
 and equity of the course we felt ourselves called upon to 
 pursue, to devise a plan founded upon our own matured 
 convictions, to sj^are no labour in drawing up the details 
 of that plan, and to forego altogether the advantage — an 
 advantage often considerable — of holding communications 
 beforehand with the various parties who were interested 
 in the matter. Therefore, the measure I am about to And the go- 
 
 , . , -r-p . 1 1 r> 1 /^ vernment accord- 
 
 submit to the House is a measure solely oi the uovern- ingiy accept the 
 
 , T, . r j.\. n\ J. 1 '^""■"'^ responsi- 
 
 ment. It is a measure oi the irovernment alone ; our biaty.
 
 8 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 responsibility for which is undivided, and our hopes of 
 the acceptance of which are founded entirely upon what 
 we trust will be found to be its equity and its justice. 
 The provisions of the Bill have been drawn up without 
 any disposition to shape them for the purpose of currying 
 favour or of conciliating any irrational prejudice, or of 
 enabling the Government to pursue any other course than 
 that which the most enlightened patriotism and the ob- 
 jects we have in view must dictate to every honourable 
 mind. {Cheers.) 
 Alternative I think it ^^ ill be for the convenience of the Committee 
 
 rn%''Rrio''uB^^quar- if I ondcavour, in the first place, as briefly as possible, to 
 put aside a variety of alternative plans with regard to 
 which numerous critics, who apparently know a great 
 deal more about our own intentions and desires than 
 we do ourselves {hear, hear, and a laugh), have from 
 time to time assured the public that the Government 
 have determined to adopt. Not satisfied with a single 
 revelation, these well-informed intelligencers, for fear 
 the interest of their readers in the subject should flag, have 
 perhaps in the following week informed them that " the 
 Government had deviated from the plan they announced 
 last week, and have adopted another plan," the pro- 
 visions of which they again proceed to announce. {Cheers 
 and laughter.) Thus a lively interest in the question has 
 been kept up. It was once said by an old poet that it was 
 pleasant to stand on the seashore and to observe the 
 mariner labouring on the sea, and it is often a source of 
 amusement to public men engaged in preparing a measure 
 of public importance to observe the floundering announce- 
 ments with regard to it which from time to time are 
 made by those who neither do nor can know anything 
 about it. {Hear, hear, and laughter.) 
 
 E^^wS^t'""*^ "^^^^ fi^^^ of these suggested plans to which I need refer 
 is that which is founded on denominational endowment. I 
 need only say, with regard to this plan, that Her Majesty's
 
 Iiasil UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 9 
 
 Government were precluded from adoj)ting any scheme 
 which involves denominational endowment by more than one 
 conclusive objection. Denominational endowment, whether 
 applied to a University or to a College in Ireland, would 
 be in opposition to the uniform and explicit declarations 
 which have been made, ever since this question assumed 
 a new position six or seven years ago, by, I believe, every 
 member of the Government, and, as I can safely assert, 
 by myself. But it is not only the fact that denominational 
 endowment is so contrary to our pledges that if it is to be 
 adopted at all it must be by some other Administration 
 than ourselves. Such pledges are of course in themselves 
 conclusive ; but there are other reasons which would compel 
 us to refuse consideration to it, even if we were not bound 
 by them. Wei-e we free in the matter ; and were the 
 national convictions upon the subject less strong than I 
 believe them to be, I confess I should think that the plan 
 of denominational endowment in the circumstances in which 
 Ireland is placed would be one unwise in principle to adopt. 
 (Hear, hear.) I doubt whether it would be favourable 
 to the true interests of academical learning. I likewise 
 doubt whether it would not lead the Government into 
 hopeless confusion by entailing upon it the performance of 
 an impossible task. The immediate result of such a plan 
 would be an interference of the State with the management 
 of institutions now entirely free, and an attempt, for which 
 the State would be quite unfit, to adjust as between dif- 
 ferent classes the balance of power within them. If we 
 are to give the money of the public to institutions founded 
 by particular religious persuasions for the advancement 
 of their own views by means of academical education, we 
 must take precautions with respect to the use of that 
 money, and it would be a gross folly on the part of Par- 
 liament and of the Government were they to undertake 
 to hold the balance between rival povvers with the mutual 
 relations of which they have nothing to do. (Cheers.)
 
 10 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 suppiemeutai Next, Sir, there was the plan which was adopted in 1866 
 
 Charter to Queen's ,1^ pit ^ ■ t • ^ \ t 
 
 uuiversity. by the (jrovemment oi that day, which included many ot 
 my present colleagues. This measure was founded upon 
 the belief that the wants of Ireland with regard to Uni- 
 versity education might, in a great degree, be met by ex- 
 tending the basis of the Queen's University so far as to 
 admit of extending the examination for degrees within its 
 precincts to students from other colleges, of whatever reli- 
 gious denomination they might be, or of students who 
 belonged to no college at all. But that plan has entirely 
 broken down. In the first place, the reception it met with 
 at the time was not such as to give us any encouragement 
 to proceed with it ; and, in the second place, a proposal 
 that Diay have been equal to the circumstances of 1866 is 
 not equal to those of 1873. The circumstances of Ireland 
 have changed since 1866 with regard to this matter of 
 public instruction, and therefore any idea of proposing a 
 scheme of that nature has not been entertained by Her 
 Majesty's Government for a single instant. {Hear, hear.) 
 
 uijversir ^^^^ Another plan which has suggested itself to many minds 
 is that of establishing a new University in Ireland by the 
 side of the Dublin University and by the side of the Queen's 
 University, which is also an University placed by its charter 
 in the City of Dublin. Certainly such a plan had one 
 recommendation in its favour — namely, that it would present 
 to us the novelty of the existence of three Universities 
 in one city. {Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I doubt very 
 much whether, in any period of the history of the world, 
 or, at any rate, whether at this moment anywhere in 
 Europe, such a singular arrangement is to be found as 
 would result from the adoption of such a plan ; and I also 
 doubt whether we should act for the advantage of aca- 
 demical education were it to be adopted merely for the 
 purposes of political expediency, that is to say, for the relief 
 of the Government and of Parliament in a moment of 
 dijSiculty. Under these circumstances this is not a pro-
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 11 
 
 posal that I could undertake to recommend to the House 
 of Commons for their acceptance. I ftiust further add 
 with reference to this proposition that the three Uni- 
 versities to be established under it would scarcely have a 
 fair start. The present University of Dublin, sustained 
 by enormous property and powerful traditions ; the Queen's 
 University, with its means comparatively limited, and its 
 constitution much more nairow ; and the third University, 
 hobbling and lagging behind the second as much as the 
 second would behind the iirst — could scarcely be said to 
 stand upon a footing conformable to justice. That would 
 not be a state of things that would be regarded by any of 
 us with great satisfaction, and would not be a course of 
 proceeding by which we could hope to effect a real settle- 
 ment of this great question, 
 
 A few minutes ago, Sir, we heard read from the table gri^vLc/^ionstT 
 of the House that paragraph of Her Majesty's Speech in ofthequc^suorto 
 which reference was made to University Education in be solved. 
 Ireland ; it is a paragraph in so far significant that it 
 (h-aus a broad and clear distinction between the two por- 
 tions of this subject, which distinction we have kept in 
 view all along. The second of them relates to the rights 
 of conscience. And the rights of conscience are, as we 
 think, deeply concerned in this question, because we hold 
 that there has long been a religious grievance in Ireland, 
 arising out of the existing state and law of University 
 education, and that it is our duty, in offering any pro- 
 posal to Parliament as a settlement of this question, to 
 make provision for the complete removal of all religious 
 grievances. But, at the same time, it would be a great ^^^1"% the'pro- 
 mistake to suppose that the religious grievance consti- ^^ISi °KdtS- 
 tutes either the whole or the main question before us. It "°° '° Ireland. 
 certainly forms an essential part of it as a negative con- 
 dition, but the positive and substantive part is that which 
 relates to the promotion of academical learning in Ireland. 
 These two matters I shall endeavour to keep separately
 
 12 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 in view while I address the House on this subject, as they 
 have all along be^n kept separately in view by the Govern- 
 ment. I am by no means prepared to state that there is 
 no likelihood of conflict between these two principles. It 
 is perfectly plain that the old academical learning, which 
 included teaching in all subjects, must be modified ; because 
 where there is a difference of religious convictions to be 
 provided for, it is impossible to retain the perfectness and 
 completeness which academical learning possessed in the 
 olden time. A large number of Her Majesty's subjects are 
 at this moment debarred from University training because 
 they send their children to places of education where their 
 religion is taught by authority, as part of the training 
 in those institutions. Now, it may be said that, even 
 though this may be true, two questions are to be raised — 
 first, is the allegation true, and, secondly, if it is true, are 
 the persons who thus withhold their children from Uni- 
 versity training right or are they wrong ? Let me observe, 
 in the first instance, that the question is not whether we 
 agree with them or no. Parliament has advisedly deter- 
 mined to give the preference to academical institutions 
 which are not denominational. (Hear, hear.) This, in the 
 three kingdoms, is the Imperial policy, and to it, in all 
 instances, we shall adhere. But there is more to say. 
 When it was observed in former times that the great ma- 
 jority of the people of Ireland were Roman Catholics, it 
 was answered, " So much the worse for them ; let them 
 Roman Catho- adopt the true religion, and then all difficulties will dis- 
 
 lics not ppculiar 5 -r> t-» i • 
 
 in preferring appear. ' But Parliament came to the conclusion that 
 
 denominational . . , • 1 r 
 
 Education. it was its duty to recognize the fact and to accept the 
 
 consequences. There are many Presbyterians who desire 
 to be educated in a College where their own religion is 
 taught ; and the existence at this moment of Magee 
 College, under a most able Principal who I believe enjoys 
 very high repute in the Presbyterian body, notwithstanding 
 all its difficulties by reason of exclusion from University
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 13 
 
 training, afforJs a proof that this belief, that education 
 should be given in connexion with denominational teaching, 
 is not confined to the Koman Catholic communion. I have 
 said it is not our business to inquire whether the Eoman 
 Catholics are right in their opinion or whether they are 
 wrong. The question for us is rather this — supposing they 
 are wrong, is it right in us, or is it wise, that they should 
 be excluded from University training ? For that is the 
 course which, up to this moment, has been pursued. I do 
 not think that Englishmen, who are accustomed to send 
 their own sons for the most part to those institutions where 
 they are trained in their religion by the same authority 
 that communicates to them the other parts of education, 
 can very severely condemn this error of the Roman 
 Catholics of Ireland, and of some of the Presbyterians of 
 Ireland, if error it is proved to be. 
 
 Now, I will look at the question in a very simple form. The case of the 
 What is the state of the case as to the actual enjoyment of stated. 
 University training by the Roman Catholics of Ireland ? 
 I shall not enter into those details of controversy which 
 have been handled with great ability by gentlemen on one 
 side and the other. There are those who think, and who 
 are bold enough to maintain, that upon the whole, con- 
 sidering who Roman Catholics are, considering how little 
 property they possess, how little it is possible for them to 
 enter upon the higher culture, their state, so far as Uni- 
 versity education is concerned, is not very bad at this 
 moment. I hold, on the contrary, that it is miserably bad. 
 (Hear.) I go farther ; and I would almost say, it is scan- 
 dalously bad. (Hear.) I will go into figures, which will at 
 least bring to a test the proposition that I have laid down ; 
 but, in applying those figures, I will first protest against the . 
 manner in which the subject has hitherto been handled, 
 and will call the attention of the Committee to a distinc- 
 tion which it appears to me they ought to bear in mind 
 in order that they may estimate correctly the facts. In
 
 14 IRISH UNIVEKSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 the Queen's Colleges, Ireland, the total number of matricu- 
 lated students is returned to me as 708. The number 
 of Eoman Catholics among them is 181, or somewhat 
 Difference be- over oue-fourth. But mv proposition is this: — In the 
 
 tween profes- J r i 
 
 sioDaidegreesacd i-eturn thoro IS a fundamental fallacy: the great bulk 
 
 degrees in Art*. ^ •' ~ 
 
 of these matriculated students, or, at least, a very large 
 portion of them, are simply professional students, and are 
 not students in Arts. But when we speak of University 
 education as an instrument of the liigher culture, we mean 
 University education in Arts. {Hear, hear.) Schools of 
 law, schools of medicine, schools of engineering, and I 
 know not how many other schools, are excellent things ; 
 but these are things totally distinct and different from 
 what we understand by that University training which we 
 look upon as the most powerful instrument for the forma- 
 tion of the mind. {Hear, hear.) Therefore I am obliged to 
 break down these figures into fragments, and to ask, out of 
 these 181 students, how many are students in Arts ? 1 now 
 give the Roman Catholic students in Arts in the Queen's 
 Colleojes of Ireland. From 1859 to 1864, in the three 
 Queen's Colleges, the Eoman Catholic students in Arts 
 averaged 59 ; from 1864 to 1869 they averaged 50 ; from 
 1869 to 1871 they averaged 45. I think these figures 
 justify the statement that the numbers are miserably small 
 {hear) ; and that, small as they are, they are, moreover, 
 dwindling away. And, Sir, when I speak of recognizing 
 only students in Arts, I am not hazarding the opinion of 
 an individual ; I am giving utterance to a judgment which 
 I know every University man will sustain. It is the opinion 
 upon which the University of Dublin has uniformly pro- 
 ceeded in its handling of this subject. The number of 
 Eoman Catholics matriculated as students in Arts at 
 Trinity College seems to be about 100. That may not be 
 the exact number, but, from the figures kindly supplied 
 to me, it must be within two or three, one way or the 
 other. Adding these 100 at Trinity College to 45 at the 
 Queen's Colleges we have 145 as the whole number of
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 15 
 
 persons whom 4,000,000 and upwards of Eoman Catholics 
 in Ireland at present succeed in bringing within the 
 teaching of a University to receive academical training in 
 the faculty of Arts. Well, I think that is a proportion 
 miserably small. (Cheers.) It is something, but it is 
 really almost next to nothing. Again, Sir, the total num- 
 ber of students in Arts in Ireland I find to be 1179. So 
 that the Eoman Catholics, with more than two-thirds — I 
 think nearly three-fourths — of the population, supply only 
 an eighth part of the students in Arts. I think there are 
 hardly any in this House who will think fit to say that 
 that is anything like an adequate proportion — anything 
 like the numbers which they ought to furnish, even after 
 making every allowance which ought fairly to be made 
 for the relative proportions of Eoman Catholics in the 
 different classes of the community. WeW, I think, then, I 
 have shown that there is a great religious grievance 
 in Ireland. Had I been able to point to a state of 
 things in which the movement was in the other direc- 
 tion — in which, instead of an almost constant decrease of 
 Roman Catholic attendance at the Queen's Colleges, there 
 was a steady, healthy, and progressive increase — the case 
 would have been greatly different. You might have said, 
 " It is well to wait and see what- happens." But I am 
 afraid if we wait to see what happens, the only result of 
 that would be to aggravate a state of things already 
 sufficiently bad. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 I now, Sir, quit the topic of the religious grievance. 
 But quite apart from the religious grievance, there is a 
 great and strong necessity for academical reform in Ire- 
 land. I will test the question first as to the quantity or 
 supply of academical training in that country ; and all 
 along I will keep broadly and plainly in view the dis- 
 tinction between training in Arts and mere professional 
 training. Now, in Trinity College there are attending 
 lectures in Arts 563 young men, about the same number
 
 16 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 — I think it is a little more — as attend in Trinity College, 
 Cambridge. In the Queen's Colleges the students in Arts 
 are as follow (I take the year 1871, which is the latest I 
 possess) : — At Belfast, 136 ; at Cork, 50 ; and at Galway, 
 35 — in all 221. Adding these two figures together we 
 get 784 as the total for Ireland of University students in 
 the proper sense of the word ; that is to say, in the sense 
 in which it is understood in Scotland, much more in the 
 sense in which it is understood in England. Seven hun- 
 dred and eighty-four is the whole number of students who 
 are receiving regular instruction in Arts, for the whole 
 of Ireland, with its five and a half millions of popula- 
 tion. But there are a large number of students in the 
 Queen's Colleges who are receiving professional education 
 in law, in medicine, and in engineering. The number of 
 these is at Belfast 201, at Cork 174, and at Galway 80 — 
 in all 455. Thus, when we include students preparing for 
 a professional career with the Arts students, we come up 
 to 1239. Finally, there are a large number of persons 
 who belong to Trinity College, Dublin, who have the 
 honour of paying, without any deduction, all the 
 fees of Trinity College, Dublin, but who receive from 
 Trinity College, Dublin, no other benefits — and great 
 benefits they are shown to be, or the price would not be 
 paid for them — than those of examination and a degree. 
 The number of these is 395, so that in this way we get 
 up the number of University students in Ireland to the 
 very poor and scanty figure of 1634, of whom less than 
 one-half are University students in the English or in the 
 Scottish sense of the word. Of students in that sense 
 in Ireland there are but 784, against 4000 whom Scotland, 
 with not much more than half the population, sends to 
 her Universities. (Hear, hear.) I think that is a pretty 
 strong case as regards the absolute supply of University 
 and academic training in Ireland. 
 
 But the case is stronger still, when we consider the com-
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 17 
 
 parative state of the academical supply. Take the Queen's 
 Colleges, those valuable institutions which we should 
 heartily desire to see in a flourishing condition. From 1859 
 to 1864 they matriculated on the average 226 persons per 
 annum. This is in Arts and other faculties taken together. 
 From 1864 to 1869 they matriculated 1039 persons, or an 
 average of 208 persons. In each of the years 1870-71 
 they matriculated 200 persons. Thus, as far as the Queen's 
 Colleges are concerned, even the present narrow supply of 
 academic training is a supply tending downwards, What 
 is the case as regards Trinity College ? Having a strong 
 sentiment of veneration and gratitude for that institution, 
 which has done in Ireland a large porttbn of the good 
 which has been done for her at all — (hear, hear), — I 
 observe with the greatest regret the decline in the number 
 of students there. I now draw no distinction between 
 resident and non-resident students ; and I find that during 
 the period of years from 1830 to 1834 the annual matricu- 
 lations were 433. Then, taking a period of 15 years down 
 to 1849, at the end of which the Queen's Colleges were 
 founded, the matriculations had sunk to 362 per annum ; 
 while from 1849 to 1872 they had again sunk to 295. 
 
 Thus, Sir, we find, upon examining this matter to the 
 bottom, that notwithstanding the efforts of Parliament, 
 notwithstanding the general increase of education, not- 
 withstanding the opening of the Queen's Colleges with 
 large endowments, the University students of Ireland in 
 the proper sense — that is, the students in Arts — are fewer 
 at this moment than they were 40 years ago, when no 
 Queen's Colleges were in existence. (Hear, hear.) I have 
 shown you that, at this moment, the students in Arts in 
 Ireland, even including men who are merely examined and 
 who do not attend lectures, only number 1179 ; but I find 
 that in 1832 the students in Arts at Trinity College alone 
 were 1461. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I think I have now sufficiently 
 made good my case as to the supply of academic training in 
 
 c
 
 18 IRISH UNIVEKSITY EDUCATION-. 
 
 Ireland and the necessity of reform so far as such a neces- 
 sity can be deduced from the mere paucity of supply. 
 
 And here I pause for oue moment to rebut the charge 
 
 that this state of things, though it would not do for Scotland 
 
 or for England, will do for Ireland. It is not true that Ire- 
 
 irishmea not land is indifferent to culture. Irishmen have their vices as 
 
 Indifferent '•" n i • • ^•^ i i i p o 
 
 culture. well ds their virtues, like every other people on the lace oi 
 
 the earth ; but among their virtues has been an appetite 
 for culture, abiding and struggling for the opportunity to 
 act even under all the difficulties and all the disadvantages 
 of their position. (Hear, hear.) Look at the College of 
 Maynooth. Some people will tell me that at Maynooth 
 there is no cult«je at all. Now, I w'ill not enter into that 
 debate ; but it surely must be admitted, even by the most 
 hostile that, if not culture in the broadest sense, it is at 
 all events relative culture. Allowing for differences of 
 religion, the Maynooth student is raised by the training he 
 receives in that College far above his original level, and is 
 so raised by a course of culture ; and everyone who has the 
 happiness of knowing the accomplished gentleman who 
 presides over the College will know that such a man would 
 not be found at the head of an institution where the spirit 
 of culture w^as not encouraged. What is the case at May- 
 nooth ? Quoting from a pamphlet by a Roman Catholic 
 gentleman who enjoys one-half the name of my hon. 
 friend (Dr. Lyon Playfair), and who possesses, I think, not 
 less than one-half his ability also — (laughter), — I find that 
 during the three years 1866-69 the average number of 
 entrances was 90 per annum. Since that time, the 
 income of Maynooth has been cut down to perhaps little 
 more than a moiety by the arrangements of 1869, though 
 it receives a considerable income still ; but the entrances, 
 instead of going dow^n, have risen from 90 to an annual 
 average of 105 ; and Dr. Lyons distinctly states that, over 
 and above any advantages that the Maynooth students 
 derive from the College, it costs each of them on an
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 19 
 
 average 50/. a year to go to Maynooth, the great bulk 
 of these students being, as he says, the sons of the smaller 
 farmers of the country. But the case does not rest upon 
 a casual illustration from ]\Iaynooth. It is really an 
 appealing to the whole history of Ireland that she may 
 make a plea for herself, and refuse to be smitten with 
 this condemnation of indifference to culture. Sir, there 
 is a love of letters in Ireland. Ireland is not barbarous 
 in mind. She can say justly on her own behalf — 
 
 "Nee sum adeb informis : nuper me in litore vidi, 
 Cum plaeidum ventis stabat mare." 
 
 If only we will give her a tranquil sea in which to mirror 
 herself, it will be in fair usage that she will return to the 
 crew. (Opposition cheers.) 
 
 Now, I am about to criticize the constitution of Trinity 
 College and of Dublin University ; and here I wish to 
 draw a broad distinction. We have been told about forms 
 of government that 
 
 " Wbate'er is best administered is best ;" 
 
 and I freely and gladly avow, in the case of Trinity Col- 
 lege, Dublin, and the Dublin University, that one of the 
 most astounding academic constitutions which it could 
 ever have entered into the head of man to devise has, not- 
 withstanding, through a liberal and enlightened adminis- 
 tration, been made to produce great benefits to the country. 
 (Hear, hear.) This constitution is in everything almost Anomalous 
 exactly the opposite of that which, according to ad- presenT"constitu- 
 mitted rules, it ought to be. The University of Dublin un'iver°uy'^"'''"' 
 is in absolute servitude to the College of Dublin. But 
 when, twenty years ago, we began to think about the 
 reform of the English Universities, what was the first 
 thing we endeavoured to do ? We endeavoured to emanci- 
 pate the University from the exclusive sway of the Col- 
 leges ; and that we did in Cambridge, where there were 
 
 c 2
 
 20 lEISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 seventeen Colleges and Halls, and in Oxford, where there 
 were twenty-four — this immense diversity producing, of 
 necessity, a great variety and play of influences. But 
 here we have the case of a single University, with a single 
 College, and the University is in absolute servitude to the 
 College. When I say, ," in servitude to the College," 
 Avhat does that mean ? The College is a large and illus- 
 trious body. Does it mean in servitude to the whole 
 assembly of the College ? Certainly not. It means eight 
 gentlemen who elect the other Fellows, who elect also 
 themselves, and who govern both the University and the 
 College. That is the state of things which we find in the 
 University of Dublin and in Trinity College. The Provost 
 and seven Fellows are the persons who appoint, to begin 
 with, the Chancellor of the University. He is not elected, 
 as in Oxford and Cambridge, and, I think, in some or 
 all of the Scotch Universities ; nor is he appointed by the 
 Crown. He is appointed by the Provost and seven Fellows. 
 But, when he is appointed, what can he do ? What is 
 there the Chancellor of the University of Dublin can do 
 except by the command or with the assent of the Provost 
 and seven Fellows ? As I understand, one of the great 
 functions of the Chancellor of the University is to con- 
 voke the Senate of the University; but at Dublin he 
 cannot do this except upon the requisition of the Provost 
 and seven Fellows. And when the Senate is convoked, 
 the Provost and the seven Fellows, or the Provost alone, 
 have the power at any moment by absolute veto to stop 
 any of its proceedings. Now that is the position of the 
 University of Dublin in reference to Trinity College. No 
 degree, again, can be granted by the University of Dublin 
 unless it receives a proposal to that effect from the Col- 
 lege ; that is, from the Provost and the seven Fellows. 
 On the other hand, when it has received this permission, 
 it cannot refuse to grant the degree, unless it votes in the 
 negative three times over, when the matter stands for
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 21 
 
 further consideration at the next meeting of the Senate. 
 Well, Sir, these things are singular. They are hardly- 
 credible. And now, to crown it all, let me give you the 
 truly Irish consummation, {A laugh.) I beg pardon for 
 having used that phrase, but, as I hope to be well-mannered 
 in general towards Ireland, I may be forgiven that single 
 offence. It is, then, a fact that the Senate of the University 
 of Dublin was formally incorporated by letters patent in 
 1857 ; and it has been acting, as has been always supposed, 
 upon the strength of those letters patent ever since. They 
 have been referred separately to two of the ablest lawyers 
 in Ireland — Sir Abraham Brewster, the ex-Lord Chan- 
 cellor, and Baron Fitzgerald ; and both of those eminent 
 lawyers entertained the gravest doubts whether — or rather 
 I should say they evidently are of opinion that — the letters 
 patent are invalid, and not worth the paper on which they 
 are written. {Laughter.) 
 
 This, Sir, is a singular state of things with respect to 
 the constitution of the University, and, cei'tainly, the 
 stranger.it is, the more credit is due to those who have 
 administered its affairs in its relation to the College ; but 
 even this is not all. I have heard the lion, and learned 
 gentleman the junior member for the University of Dublin, 
 in language with which I strongly sympathised, pleading 
 for academic free lom against political party, and against 
 the interference of the State and Crown. But how does 
 Trinity College itself stand with regard to such inter- 
 ference ? Why, Sir, as the University of Dublin is abso- 
 lutely dependent upon the College, the whole supreme 
 power of legislation for the College lies with the Crown. 
 It can override the Provost and seven Fellows to any 
 extent it pleases. And I will now make a premature 
 revelation for the satisfaction of the hon. and learned 
 gentleman as to what we are going to propose. I hope 
 we shall be able to propose, on behalf of Trinity College, a
 
 22 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 somewhat more independent constitution than that which 
 it now possesses. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 Well, Sir, I think I have shown that, if there be any- 
 thing sound in the principle for which I am contending, 
 and the absolute necessity of which has been, as a general 
 rule, admitted — namely, the principle of setting the Uni- 
 versity free from the exclusive dominion of the College, — 
 I think I have shown that the present state of the con- 
 stitution of the University of Dublin calls for interference 
 — although I grant that to some extent you may make 
 for it the same sort of argument that in 1830 and 1831 
 was made for the old Parliamentary Constitution — namely, 
 that, whatever may be said about it in the abstract, the 
 fruits of it on the whole have been greatly better than 
 could have been expected. 
 yersity of Dublin And uow, Sir, wliilc I promiso not to deviate from the 
 ougui'iobe. path which is traced out for me by the subject, I am sorry 
 to be compelled from tlie necessity of the case to dwell 
 for a while upon the University of Dublin ; upon the ques- 
 tion what it is legally, morally, and historically, and what 
 it ought to be. And, first of all, I desire to clear away 
 a degree of confusion that exists in the minds of some 
 respecting the relative position of the University of Dublin 
 and Trinity College. To this confusion I am afraid our 
 friends in Scotland have made a liberal contribution, 
 because in Scotland the University and the College are 
 for every practical purpose the same thing. According 
 to the old Eoman law, as I am informed, universiias 
 and collegium were as nearly as possible synonymous. I 
 have not lived much in Scotland for nearly 20 years, but 
 when I did live there it was a common thing to hear a 
 Scotchman say to a friend, " Have you sent your son yet 
 to Oxford College?" The University and the College 
 were to him exactly one and the same in idea and in fact. 
 What I want is to sever these words eflfectuallv one from
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 23 
 
 tne other ; and I beg the Committee to believe, what I will 
 distinctly show, that in the case of the University of 
 Dublin and Trinity College they are in law and in history 
 entirely distinct and separate bodies. It is not very easy, 
 perhaps, to supply an analogy to illustrate their actual 
 connexion; but the nearest one I know belongs to the 
 beginning of the 17th century. It is in the famous theory 
 of Hooker, who held that every man in England was a 
 member of the State, and also a member of the Church ; 
 although it was admitted they were two different forms 
 of society, yet they presented only two different aspects of 
 the body politic. In the same way we have had the 
 University and the College of Dublin co-extensive as to 
 the persons of whom they are composed. Nevertheless 
 their academical and legal character has been perfectly 
 distinct. The University exists apart from the College 
 now, as it has all along existed, morally and legally 
 apart, notwithstanding the fact of the identity of the 
 persons of whom the two are composed. Let me try if I 
 can proye the proposition I have stated. And, first, I 
 will point out the separate existence of the University, 
 because this is the basis of the measure which the Govern- 
 ment is going to propose. It is shown, even at the 
 present day, by the existence of the Senate. The Senate 
 is not the Senate of the College ; it is the great assembly 
 of the University. Whether the letters patent of 1857 
 be valid or not is immaterial. The Senate existed before 
 the letters patent, and would exist without them ; but, 
 besides the Senate, the University of Dublin has other 
 elements of a constitution perfectly distinct from that of 
 the College. The Senate has the exclusive right to 
 grant degrees, although it does so, I must admit, in durance 
 vile, and under great compulsion ; but the College has no 
 power to grant degrees, they are given exclusively by the 
 University. The University has a Chancellor and a 
 Vice-Chancellor, and, lastly, the University has — and this
 
 24 IRISH UNIVEKSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 is very important — Parliamentary representation. That 
 representation is not a representation of the' College ; and 
 here is the single case in which the two societies consist 
 of different persons. Many of those who have taken their 
 names off the books of the College continue to vote for 
 members to represent the University in this House, and 
 they are compelled, in order to qualify for that purpose, 
 to retain their names only on the books of the University. 
 of '^Dubiln'^'date ^hc Univcrsity of Dublin does not, as some may suppose, 
 euXr ume"Jhan Originally dato from the reign of Elizabeth. So far back 
 zabfth!^" °*^ ^^'" as the year 1311, at a period when a great intellectual 
 movement occurred in Euroj)e, the Archbishop of Dublin, 
 John Lech, obtained a Bull from Pope Clement V. to found 
 an University ( Universitas sclwlarum) in that city. Another 
 Archbishop of Dublin, Archbishop Alexander de Bichnor, 
 obtained a code of statutes for the University. In 1358, 
 Edward III. founded a Lectureship in Theology in the 
 University ; and here we encounter a singularly interesting 
 c'reu instance, for Edward III. provided in that foundation 
 that, for the purpose of their attending the lectures in 
 theology, safe-conducts should be granted for the resort 
 of students from all parts of Ireland, and that these 
 safe- conducts should be granted not only to the English of 
 the Pale, but also to the Irish enemy, as he was commonly 
 called, from beyond it. It is really touching to see this 
 ■* sign of brotherhood and of the common tie of humanity 
 
 betraying itself in connexion with the foundation of the 
 University, and in the form of a regulation for securing 
 free access to its benefits. {Hear?) In 1361 the Duke of 
 Clarence founded a Preachership and Lectureship in St. 
 Patrick's, which was the site of the old University before 
 the Eeformation. In 1465 it appears that the Parliament 
 of Ireland had endeavoured to found a University which, 
 I suspect, very few gentlemen here have heard of, namely, 
 the University of Drogheda ; and the failure of this 
 endeavour led Pope Sixtus IV. to give authority for a like
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION, 25 
 
 foundation in Dublin, inasmuch as (so says the Pope) 
 there was noiife at that time in the island, showing that 
 the former foundations had been broken up. In 1496 
 another Archbishop of Dublin taxed his clergy in Pro- 
 vincial Synod to find stipends for seven years for the 
 lecturers of the University ; and from some evidence 
 of the 16th century it is clear that teaching in some form 
 or other did continue in connexion with St. Patrick's 
 Church until about the reign of Edward VI. It is of 
 singular interest, I think, when we consider the rudeness 
 of the times and the disorganized state of the country, to 
 witness those continual eiforts to introduce through an 
 University the elements of humanity and civilization. 
 Across that sanguinary scene of war and turbulence and 
 bloodshed, flits from time to time this graceful vision 
 of an University, appearing to-day, disappearing to-morrow, 
 re-appearing on an after day — 
 
 " i'ar k'vibus ventis, volucrique similliiua somno," 
 
 but, unhappily, never able to root itself on a firm founda- 
 tion in the soil, like the Universities of England, or like 
 those of Scotland at a corresponding date. 
 
 We have now. Sir, reached the reign of Elizabeth ; and 
 here we find that great man Sir Henry Sydney, the Lord 
 Deputy, whose fame has been, I think, unreasonably and 
 unjustly obscured by the more brilliant but not more solid 
 reputation of his son, petitioning the QueeiT, in 1568, for the 
 revival of the University. In 1585 Sir John Parrott, who 
 had then succeeded to the office of Lord Deputy, proposed 
 to dissolve St. Patrick's Church, for the purpose of founding 
 two Universities, but Archbishop Loftus objected to that 
 proceeding as sacrilegious. Some critical observers put 
 another and less favourable interpretation on the objection 
 — I do not know whether justly or not ; but there is some 
 allegation as to the granting of leases of portions of the 
 property to blood relations. However, x\rchbishop Loftus
 
 26 IKISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 afterwards himself proposed the plan which has ultimately 
 expanded itself into the present University of Dublin. He 
 obtained a grant of the monastery of All Hallows, near 
 Dublin, and he prevailed upon Queen Elizabeth to found 
 a college in Dublin, which college was to be Mater Uni- 
 versitatis. It is important to know what was the meaning 
 of that expression. I will give my own version of it, and 
 with the more confidence, because something like it has 
 been given already by one whom I look upon as the 
 highest of all the authorities who have dealt with the 
 curious history of the University of Dublin — namely, the 
 very learned Dr. Todd, so long and honourably connected 
 with that University. For 150 or 200 years all efforts to 
 found a University alone had been vain ; again and again 
 it had dissolved into thin air. In the reign of Queen 
 Elizabeth a completely different policy was adopted, and 
 instead of beginning with the University, it was determined 
 to begin with the College. They, therefore, founded a 
 College, and it was incorporated, but they did not incor- 
 porate the University, which, as a University, remains to 
 this day unincorporated. I tliink that policy was a wise 
 and sagacious one. The men of that time appear to have 
 reasoned thus : "Hitherto, the University has pined and 
 died from want of the proper material to sustain it. We 
 will supply the material which will feed the sacred flame ; 
 for it is not here as it was in England, where the Uni- 
 versity grew as it were spontaneously, in obedience to 
 demand, to supply a thirst for learning. If we plant 
 firmly a nucleus of teachers and scholars, around it will 
 gather a body of men, out of which a real and solid 
 University will hereafter grow." They, therefore, planted 
 their College and called it Mater Universitatis, meaning 
 thereby that from the College a University was to spring 
 up, and that other Colleges were to appear from time to 
 time within its precincts. 
 
 Now, Sir, it may appear to some that I am talking
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 27 
 
 strangely when I speak thus ; but I will make good, 
 briefly and I think conclusively, that, according to the 
 original design of the University of Dublin, and as to the 
 continued remembrance — as to the maintenance of that 
 design I will give you evidence for 200 years, from the 
 date of Queen Elizabeth's foundation — there were to be 
 and there ought to be other colleges in the University of 
 Dublin. In 1600, the College having only begun to take 
 students in 1593, the first " commencement," as it is 
 termed, was held, showing that the University was in 
 action as distinct from the College, and this at the close of 
 the first period, when a course of study had been com- 
 pleted by the very first pupils. In 1615, or some say a 
 little earlier, the University Statutes were published, and 
 by them, with modifications, the University has been 
 governed to this day. This was done by the College. It 
 was to be a Mater Universitatis, and it was not unfaithful 
 to its trust. Undoubtedly, and it is a large part of the 
 case I have to state, the original design has not been ful- 
 filled ; but I do not say it was the fault of the persons 
 connected with the College. It was the fault and mis- 
 fortune of the times, for not only were efforts made to 
 found new colleges in Dublin in the 17th century, but 
 those efforts took some effect ; and I find that no less 
 than four colleges and halls are on record. One was 
 founded as soon as 1604, only eleven years after the com- 
 mencement of the practical operations of Trinity College 
 — namely. Woodward's Hall. Trinity Hall was founded in 
 1617, and that, I think, is the one which took some root 
 as a medical College, and subsisted down to about 1689. 
 In 1630 New College was founded, and in the same year 
 St. Stephen's or Kildare Hall. It is shown by these im- 
 perfect foundations, made at a time M'hen the mother- 
 College was itself still immaturely established, that those, 
 who followed the founders of 1593, were anxious to give 
 effect to their design of multiplying colleges around Trinity
 
 28 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 College, which should share in the enjoyment of the same 
 privileges ; and thereby to bring into existence the true 
 idea of a University, as it had been understood, and as it 
 already existed in England, which was the model they 
 had before their eyes. 
 
 But this, Sir, is not all. I vnW show further that the 
 most solemn and important public documents have again 
 and again referred to the intention of founding new col- 
 leges in the University. In 1613 James I. gave the Uni- 
 versity of Dublin the right of being represented by two 
 members in the Irish Parliament, and in giving it, after 
 mentioning Trinity College, he speaks of " aliorum col- 
 legiorum sive aularum in dietd Universitate in ])Osterum 
 erigendarum ao stabiliendai-um." In his view, therefore, 
 other colleges were to be founded in Dublin. In 1662 the 
 Act of Settlement empowered the Lord Lieutenant to erect 
 another college, to be of the University of Dublin, to be 
 called King's College, and to be endowed with any amount 
 of property from the forfeited estates not exceeding the 
 then very large sum of 20007. a year. The last, and per- 
 haps the most curious, indication I will give is of the date 
 of 1793. The disabilities which excluded Roman Catholics 
 from Trinity College and the University of Dublin, were 
 then removed by law ; and an Act was passed wliich, while 
 it provided that they might enter Trinity College, but not 
 share in the endowments of the College, further provided 
 that Papists might take degrees, fellowships, or professor- 
 ships in any college to be hereafter founded under that 
 Act," subject to the double condition that such college 
 was not to be founded for the education of Papists alone, 
 excluding all other persons, and that it was to be a member 
 of the University of Dublin. I think, then, I have shown 
 with regard to that University that, according to the 
 spirit and intent of its foundation, it is a scheme which, 
 noble in itself, remains unfulfilled, and, consequently, pre- 
 sents the strano;e anomalies in its constitution to which I
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 29 
 
 have referred. I wish to quote, in a few words, the legal 
 opinion of Baron Fitzgerald, given, I thitik, in 1858, Baron fuz- 
 with regard to the scope of Dublin University, and to the as™to ^he^iega" 
 question how far it is conformable to its plan that it should unfverblty. 
 include other colleges with Trinity College. It is not for 
 me, speaking among many eminent lawyers, to draw a 
 distinction among members of the Irish Bar, but as far as 
 I can judge from what I have heard of the opinions and 
 writings of Baron Fitzgerald on this subject, he certainly 
 carries in my eye the appearance of a man of very con- 
 siderable weight, ability, and authority in his profession. 
 After reasoning upon other matters, he says : — 
 
 " The consequences of this would of course be that by the mere 
 creation of any other college in the University, each and every student 
 (^sludiosus) admitted to it, whether belonging to that new college or 
 corporation or not, would become entitled to the University jirivileges." 
 
 I think I have now sufficiently indicated the historical 
 ground upon which we feel that in dealing with this intri- 
 cate and most important question it is much better to go to 
 the root of the matter, to deal with it thoroughly, and to 
 propound to Parliament a plan which, from its comprehen- 
 siveness and solidity, might afford promise of giving peace 
 and of offering finality in that limited but reasonable sense 
 in which alone it is applicable to human affairs ; and I 
 propound with some confidence to the House that the Uni- 
 versity of Dublin, as distinct from Trinity College, is the 
 ancient, historic, national University of the country, that its 
 constitution is in a state of the strangest anomalies, that it 
 calls for reform, and that it is this University within the 
 precincts of which the reform now projected for Ireland 
 ought to take effect. 
 
 This seems to be the point in the course of my statement Queen's coi- 
 at which I ought to refer to the Queen's Colleges and the vmuy!^" 
 Queen's University. We have looked carefully at the 
 state of the Queen's Colleges, and we have arrived at the
 
 30 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 conclusion that the College of Belfast is strongly and 
 solidly founded, and is eminently adapted to meet the 
 wishes and wants of a large portion of the population in 
 the North of Ireland. We also think that the College 
 of Cork, although not perhaps so solidly founded as Bel- 
 fast, although not at any rate invested M'ith so large a 
 promise of expansion under favourable circumstances, 
 presents what may be called a very fair Parliamentary 
 case, from the number of persons it trains, as well as the 
 of g'Tw^'cIw sfSciency of that training. With regard to Gal way College, 
 show that u we have arrived at a different conclusion. I am now 
 
 ought to be sup- , . , . 
 
 pressed. spcakmg, remember, of matter which is not of the essence 
 
 of the plan of the Government. The essence of the plan 
 lies in what relates to the University of Dublin and to 
 Trinity College ; the propositions I now make are collateral 
 to the main portion of the plan, and may be dealt with apart 
 from it, but from a sense of their merits we are disposed to 
 urge them strongly on the House. Galway College, if it 
 has not materially declined, cannot certainly be said to 
 have advanced of late years. The whole number of matri- 
 culated students in 1870-1, the return for which is now, I 
 believe, laid on the table, was only 117, of whom half were 
 medical students ; and I may observe that, however excel- 
 lent professional schools may be, they are not institutions 
 which have the largest claims on the taxpayers of this 
 country, (Hear,) They are rather in the nature of self- 
 supporting institutions. Education in Arts does not 
 directly lead, as a general rule, to remuneration ; but edu- 
 cation in Medicine will, I hope, always prove its own 
 reward ; and the whole number of students in Arts in 
 Galway, whom I point out as the more proper objects of 
 a public foundation, if public foundation there is to be, is 
 only about 30, However invidious it may be to look to 
 pounds shillings and pence in these matters, and although 
 there come from Galway a certain number of very well- 
 instructed men, even the best article cannot be viewed
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 31 
 
 without some regard to the price, and it is only right I 
 should tell the House that the charge on the Consoli- 
 dated Fund and other expenses of Galway College amount 
 to lOjOOOZ. a year. I have called for an account of the 
 charge to the Exchequer of every pupil in the College, 
 and the return given me is this: — The cost per annum 
 to the public of every pupil is 111. ; the cost of every 
 pupil carried on to a degree in Arts is 23 IZ., and the cost 
 of every graduate in Law — I confess I grudge this the 
 most, for I know no class which can plead less in the way 
 of necessity for public subvention than our respected 
 friends the lawyers — is 308Z. The medical charge is 
 lower. We get a doctor, and in almost every case, I 
 am happy to say, a very efficient doctor, for 154Z. 
 Now, under these circumstances, we doubt and more than 
 doubt whether, when so much better arrangements are 
 about to be made for the people of Ireland, so large a sum 
 of public money ought permanently to continue to be 
 applied to the purposes of Galway College. {Hear.) We of^^iwa'coUe^^e 
 are disposed, therefore, to recommend, with every proper ^ ^^ respected. 
 consideration for vested interests in the Galway College, 
 that measures should be taken for winding-up within a 
 reasonable time its transactions. The measure we propose 
 is that the Council of the Queen's University, which will 
 not certainly be adverse to the College, shall frame a' 
 scheme for winding-up its operations at some period before 
 the 1st of January, 1876, a time which will allow every 
 one connected with the College ample time to finish his 
 career. 
 
 I pass on now to the Queen's University. The Queen's The Queen's 
 University and the Colleges, as a whole, have in my 
 opinion rendered great service to Ireland, and if they have 
 been prevented, as they have been prevented, from doing 
 a great deal more good, it has been by an unhappy if 
 not even a strange combination of influences. I know not 
 whether any one supposes me to be actuated by a senti-
 
 32 lEISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 ment of either open or latent hostility to the Queen's Col- 
 leges ; but this I may say tliat when many objected to 
 them I spoke and voted as an independent Member of Par- 
 liament for their foundation in 1845, and have never 
 ceased to wish them well. But now I wish to do an act 
 of justice. It is quite true that the main cause of their 
 comparative failure has lain in the operation of ecclesias- 
 tical influence from the Roman side. This influence, how- 
 ever, has been accepted, approj)riated, and made their own 
 by a very large portion of the members of the Roman 
 Catholic Church. (Hear.) But what 1 wish to point out, 
 and it is only fair to point it out, is this. The first blow, 
 and it was a very serious blow, struck at the Queen's Col- 
 leges, was not struck from that quarter. There never was 
 a plan, I believe, devised in a spirit of more tender regard 
 for religion than the plan of the Queen's Colleges as it 
 was framed by Sir R. Peel and Sir J. Graham ; and those 
 who will look back to the provisions of the Act which 
 established the Colleges in 1845 will see the most distinct 
 indications of their desire, on the one hand, to keep the 
 State out of the vortex of polemical differences, and, 
 on the other hand, to give the utmost possible facilities, 
 to all who were so disposed, for making direct provision 
 for instruction in religion within the walls of appropriate 
 buildings and in immediate connexion with the Colleges 
 themselves. These provisions most unhappily proved 
 Who struck the abortive ; but who was it that struck the first blow? 
 
 first blow at the . i t-,mi • i i i 
 
 Queen's Colleges ? On the vcry uiglit when the Bill was introduced by 
 Sii- R. Peel or Sir J. Graham, my much lamented friend 
 Sir R. Inglis, as member for the University of Oxford, felt 
 it incumbent on him in the discharge of his duty to rise 
 in his place and denounce them as " a gigantic scheme 
 of Godless education " {hear). And again, at the end of 
 the debate on the second reading, so far from softening or 
 withdrawing the language he had used, lie felt it a matter 
 of honour to repeat it and insist on it. After that declara-
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 33 
 
 tion so made, it was perhaps not very easy for the repre- 
 sentative of Orthodoxy in Eome to accept as sufficiently 
 religious for Rome what the representative of Orthodoxy 
 in Oxford had repudiated and condemned as not suffi- 
 ciently religious for Oxford. I here speak of the Col- 
 leges as a whole, and it \vill be distinctly understood why 
 with these views we think that the Belfast College and 
 the Cork College should be maintained; although with 
 respect to Galway College the case is different, and we 
 are of opinion that, ^\ ithout the smallest imputation on the 
 teachers in it, the heavy charge it imposes is not warranted 
 by the results. I come now to the Queen's University. th^^Qn°een'8 Coi^ 
 We regard its influence as unmixedly good so far as it {o^bVa°"o^paraw 
 goes ; but I doubt very much whether, if we succeed in university. 
 reorganizing, opening, enlarging, and liberally endowing 
 the University of Dublin, it would be for the interest of 
 the Queen's University to maintain a separate existence 
 by its side. Let me point out these considerations. In 
 the first place, if, where there are only three colleges, 
 and where the professors of the colleges form the whole 
 staff of the University, the University is not very strong, 
 obviously it has notliing to spare ; take away one of the 
 colleges, and the University will be weaker than it was 
 before. (Hear, hear.) In the next place, we must expect, 
 as a matter of course, that these colleges will have to 
 suffer more or less from the competition of an enlarged 
 and effective University of Dublin, and from the greater 
 liberty which will now be secured, especially for Roman 
 Catholics, in choosing the place of their education. In the 
 third place, if we leave it as it is, it will be excluded from 
 those liberal endowments which we hope will be possessed 
 and enjoyed by the University of Dublin. And lastly, it will 
 have no share in that great advantage, the privilege of 
 Parliamentary representation, which the University of 
 Dublin enjoys, and which I hope that University will 
 always enjoy. (Hear, hear.) For these reasons, and not
 
 34 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 in any penal sense, not believing that the institution is 
 not a beneficial institution, but with a view to the yet 
 greater advantage of those who now profit by its existence, 
 we are of opinion that it will be a wise course if Parlia- 
 ment should be disposed to say that the Queen's Uni- 
 versity, which was brought into existence merely to 
 And pass into a^swer the purposes of the Colleges, shall pass over into 
 
 iMsit'y^oTDubito! the enlarged and remodelledUniversity of Dublin. (Hear, 
 hea7'.) 
 The practical I come iiow to the qucstiou of the practical principles 
 
 whfch the Go- ou which we hope Parliament will conduct that great 
 
 vernment Scheme ,. ,. ^ ..__. •,11 n ,i 
 
 proceeds are iden- acadcmic rctorm to which i have pomted by means oi the 
 
 tical with those ^ 1 2 ■ 1 i -r> ix ■ • ^ 
 
 which recent measure we are about to mtroduce. siy what prmcipies 
 p\f^ to'^ Oxford are we to be guided in that reform? Parliament has been 
 am ri ge. jg^g^^j^ engaged in reforming the Universities of Oxford 
 and Cambridge; it has laid down very sound principles 
 with respect to these Universities ; these principles have 
 not reached their fullest development, but still there they 
 are; they have received deliberate sanction, and it is 
 upon these principles that we propose to go with respect 
 to the University of Dublin and Trinity College. What, 
 then, are the great principles upon which Parliament has 
 acted with respect to the English Universities ? First of 
 all it has abolished tests. (Hear, hear.) Upon this point 
 there is practically no difference of opinion, because while 
 the whole Liberal politicians of the country have desired 
 that abolition for its own sake, under the circumstances of 
 the time that boon is freely offered with an open hand by 
 the authorities of Trinity College and the University of 
 Dublin itself. But this is a negative rather than a posi- 
 tive reform. (Hear, hear.) The next principle has been 
 to open endowments. Where endowments are tied up by 
 particular provisions in such a way as to render them the 
 monopoly of comparatively few. Parliament has endea- 
 voured to widen the access, and to increase the number 
 of those who may compete for them, with the conviction
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION, 35 
 
 that that is the way to render them more fruitful of 
 beneficial results. The next and perhaps most important 
 principle has been to emancipate the University from the 
 Colleges. That is what we did at once in Oxford, and we 
 did it in two ways. The first of them was the establish- 
 ment of a new governing body. In Cambridge, the 
 Caput, supplemented by conventional meetings of the 
 Heads of Houses, in Oxford more formally the Hebdo- 
 madal Board, comjiosed almost wholly of the Heads of 
 Colleges, — were in practical possession of the initiative, 
 and were the rulers of the University. We. abolished the 
 Hebdomadal Board in Oxford and the Caput in Cambridge, 
 and carried over the powers in each case to the Council. 
 And now similarly, that we should establisli a new govern- 
 ing body for the University of Dublin is evidently the 
 conclusion to which both principle and policy should bring 
 us. The other great measure of emancipation consisted 
 in the introduction within the Universities of members not 
 belonging to any college at all. Until within the last few 
 years no one could belong to the University of Oxford or 
 of Cambridge without belonging to some College or Hall 
 within it, just as now no one can belong to the University 
 of Dublin without belonging also to Trinity College. 
 Parliament enabled the English Universities to enlarge 
 their borders by taking in members not belonging to any 
 college or hall. Speaking for Oxford, I rejoice to say that 
 Act has been fruitful of good ; and already, although the 
 change is a very recent one, there are 120 young men 
 to be found in the University enjoying all the benefits 
 of careful training, but all able to pursue a social scheme 
 of their own, to live as economically as they please, to 
 seek knowledge in the way they like best, provided they 
 conform to the rules of the University; and we may 
 reasonably expect that a very powerful element of Uni- 
 versity life will in this way ultimately be established. 
 Another method by which we have proceeded, I will not 
 
 D 2
 
 36 HUSH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 say to emancipate tlie Universities, but to make the col- 
 leges conducive to the purposes of the University, is a 
 very important one, and that is, to use a very emphatic 
 little word, by " taxing " the Colleges for the benefit of 
 the Universities. That is a principle which has already- 
 received in Oxford a considerable development. We 
 already oblige Corpus Christi, Magdalen, and All Souls 
 Colleges to maintain jirofessors out of the College Reve- 
 nues, not for College but for University purposes ; and as 
 for Christ Church, with which I have been myself con- 
 nected, though a poor College in comparison with Trinity 
 College — I greatly doubt whether it is half as wealthy — 
 yet in Christ Church five professorships of divinity, at a 
 cost of probably between 7000Z. and 8000?. a year, are 
 maintained out of the property of the College for the 
 benefit of the University. 
 The circum- Tliesc, Sir, are the principles of academic reform on 
 
 stances of Iveland ' ' ^ '■ 
 
 require sonie dif- -vvhich wc liavo procccded in England. There are other 
 
 ference of treat- ^ '-' 
 
 rnent in detjiii principles which it would be necessary to observe in 
 
 from the reform i ••• _ , . . 
 
 of the English Ireland, in consequence of lier peculiar circumstances : 
 
 Lniver^iiies, -"^ _ _^ ' 
 
 yet these are the main ones. But there are two points 
 among those which the special case of Ireland brings 
 before us, that I must particularly notice. To the one I 
 would refer with some satisfaction, at least as regards 
 Trinity College ; to the other with pain. It is this. If we 
 are about to found a University in Ireland in which we 
 hope to unite together persons of the different religious 
 persuasions into which the community .is divided, we must 
 be content to see some limitations of academical teaching. 
 It would not be safe, in our opinion, to enter with one's 
 eyes open into largely controverted subjects. In theology 
 no one would wish the University of Dublin, if it be re- 
 formed, to teach ; and we also think there are some other 
 subjects with regard to which it will be necessary to observe 
 limitations that I will presently explain. There is another 
 matter on which we must pursue a course somewhat dif-
 
 IRISH UiNIVEUSlTY EDUCATION. 37 
 
 ferent from that taken in England. In England, when we 
 reformed the Universities, we may say we did nothing to 
 increase the influence of the Crown. In Ireland, as far 
 as Trinity College is concerned, I should not propose to 
 increase the influence of the Crown. It appears to me 
 that it may be safely limited. But if we are to have an 
 effective and living Dublin University with a new Governing 
 Body, I am afraid it will be necessary to introduce for a 
 time the action of Parliament and of the Crown in conse- 
 quence of the unbalanced state of the University at the 
 present moment, a state which must continue at all events 
 for a time. (Hear, hear.) When the University arrives at Action of Pai- 
 
 ,.. . I'll • • ^ ^ c ■ ^ l'»™Giit and tho 
 
 a condition in which the nation can be said to be fairly •■rown ncessaiy 
 represented in it, then I think the desire of Parliament as the insii 
 
 •11 1 XT • • • 1 p nation can Ix- 
 
 Will be to carry over to the University itselt, as far as siid to be tairiy 
 may be, the power of electing all its own officers and t'le ooveming 
 (jTOverning -body, and to see it thrive upon those principles vei>ity. 
 of academic freedom which have been allowed so much of 
 scope in this country, on the whole with such beneficial 
 results. 
 
 Well, Sir, these are the principles on which we propose ^-^f"^^^ forJgoin- 
 to proceed. And, now, if the Committee will still have the j,"' "pjfij'f, '"'' ^'' 
 kindness to follow me, I will endeavour to describe the 
 mode in which those principles will be applied to the 
 University of Dublin. And first. Sir, I must say it is 
 necessary for clearness that the Committee should carefully 
 keep in view three separate periods of time. The first 
 period of time laid down in the Bill is the 1st of January, 
 1875. It is on the 1st of January, 1875, that we propose 
 that the powers now exercised by the Provost and seven 
 Senior Fellows of Trinity College as towards the University 
 shall be handed over to the new Governing Body, just as 
 in the English Universities the powers of the Hebdomadal ^ 
 Board and less exactly those of the Cambridge Heads were 
 handed over to the new Governing Bodies, which repre- 
 sented mixed and diversified academic forces. The second
 
 I-J8 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 period, after the 1st of January, 1875, is one of ten years, 
 which we look upon as a provisional period, during which 
 it will be necessary to make some special provisions that 
 I will by-and-by state summarily to the Committee. 
 After the 1st of January, 1885, we think we may reckon 
 that the new scheme will in all likelihood have developed 
 itself so largely and so freely, that the permanent system of 
 government of the University may with safety be brought 
 into play. 
 
 I now proceed to explain the leading provisions of the 
 Bill. First of all, the University is to be incorporated by 
 the present Bill, a process which it has never yet under- 
 gone. The Universities of this country are incorporated ; 
 and it is more convenient and seemly that they should be 
 incorporated than that a particular part — namely, the 
 Senate, as now — should be incorporated in a manner quite 
 contrary to the analogy of our academical history. The 
 Severance of the sccoud provisiou I will name is this — the separation of the 
 cuUy°boTh from thcological faculty. We propose to sever the theological 
 anTfroni the ui^- faculty both from Trinity College, and from the University 
 \ei!,iyo u ID. Qf j)^|3]jjj^ j^ appcars to us that a measure of that kind 
 follows naturally and of necessity from the changes that 
 have already occurred in Ireland, and from the changes 
 which have been offered on the part of the University and 
 of Trinity College. I own it is not altogether without 
 regret that I personally accede to that measure, for this 
 reason : I think that the University of Dublin has exer- 
 cised a most beneficial influence over the religious charac- 
 ter, tone, and tendencies of a large and important portion 
 of the Irish nation. But still I freely and advisedly 
 believe that we are right in holding that this theological 
 faculty ought now to be severed both from the University 
 , and from the College. The details of the operation will be 
 found described in the clauses of the Bill from 10 to 15 ; and 
 the method we pursue is this : — It is as nearly as possible 
 analogous to the method pursued under the Church Act 
 
 I
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 39 
 
 in the case of Maynooth College. We hand over the care 
 of tlie theological faculty to the Kepresentative Body of 
 the Disestablished Church. We make provision, I hope 
 ample provision, for the vested interests of the persons 
 now holding office in the theological faculty, or discharging 
 duties in that faculty, as far as those duties are concerned. 
 We provide that private endowments which have been 
 created for the purposes of the theological faculty shall 
 pass over to the Kepresentative Body, that Body to be 
 subject to the same responsibilities as Trinity College will 
 lie under, if the Bill be adopted, with reference to the 
 private endowments in Trinity College. With regard to 
 the rest of the change affecting the theological faculty, 
 we propose to follow exactly the analogy of Maynooth. 
 We ask you to grant 15 years' purchase of the annual 
 expense ; that is, a sum equal to 15 times the annual 
 expense is to be handed over to the Representative Body, 
 to be administered in trust for the purposes for which the 
 theological faculty has existed. And, lastly, as the theo- 
 logical faculty, severed from the University and from the 
 College, will no longer appear nor have accommodation 
 in the buildings already existing, we propose that there 
 should be a charge on the property of the College of 
 15,000/. to provide buildings for the theological faculty. 
 So much as to the theological faculty. 
 
 I now come to the substantive and positive portion of The substantive 
 our proposal, which I will describe as succinctly as I can. uon "of the 
 The principal parts and organs of the University of Dublin 
 as we propose that they should stand in its detached and 
 reformed condition, are these : — First of all there is the 
 Chancellor of the University. The case of the Chancellor- 
 ship of the University of Dublin is a very peculiar one, in riesent posi- 
 this respect, that he is scarcely — I speak subject to correc- ceiior of the um- 
 tion — more than a nominal officer so far as regards the Uni- "*'""'^- 
 versity. He has indeed the privilege of appointing the
 
 40 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 Vice-Chancellor, but then the Vice- Chancellor is, unfortu- 
 nately, no less nominal than himself ; for all that they can 
 do is, when they are permitted by the College, to preside 
 in the Senate ; and when they preside there they are liable 
 to be stopped at any moment by the action of the authori- 
 ties of the College. But, although he is a nominal officer 
 as to the University, he is not so as to the College. In 
 virtue of his office of Chancellor of the University, he is 
 Visitor of the College. As Visitor of the College he has 
 all the ordinary powers of the Visitor of a college ; and 
 besides those ordinary powers he has another real and im- 
 portant power — namely, that his assent to the statutes of 
 the College is required, I think, in certain rather im- 
 portant cases, to give them validity. And so we have had 
 to consider, in detaching and severing the College functions 
 from those of the University, what course to pursue as to 
 the Chancellor. The course we recommend is this — We 
 His position think it better, under all the circumstances, to continue 
 ^o^e'ds It^m^™' ^^^ Chancellor of the University as (if I may so speak) an 
 ornamental officer of the University, and, that being so, to 
 attach the Chancellorship to the person of the Lord Lieu- 
 tenant for the time being. This is not a question of 
 making over an operative State influence. If it were so, 
 the case would be materially altered. But viewing all the 
 difficulties which beset any other manner of proceeding, 
 we recommend this as least open to objection. The Vioe- 
 Chancellor we propose to leave it to the new Governing 
 Body to elect from amoug themselves. He will, there- 
 fore, be a real officer, with real functions — namelv, those 
 which attach to the Chair of the Governing Body. But 
 we also make provision that the present distinguished 
 Chancellor of the University, Lord Cairnsj shall not, by 
 the action of the Bill, be divested of those substantive 
 powers, which he possesses — powers, namely, which accrue 
 to him in the character of Visitor of Trinity College, and
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 41 
 
 the whole of which will be carefully preserved. That, 
 Sir. is the proposal with respect to the Chancellor and the 
 Vice-Chancellor. 
 
 Now, from what I have said the House will readily un- introduction of 
 derstand that an important part of our proposal goes to fulfil the uuiversuy. 
 that which has remained unfulfilled in the past by intro- 
 ducing new Colleges into the University of Dublin. If tlie 
 House should adopt the suggestions that we have made with 
 regard to the Queen's University and Queen's Colleges, 
 the two first of such colleges naturally will be those of 
 Belfast and Cork. We shall also propose in Committee 
 on the Bill, if agreeable to the parties, that the two volun- 
 tary institutions to which I think I have already referred 
 — namely, the college which is called the Koman Catholic 
 University and the Magee College — should become 
 colleges of the University of Dublin. I will afterwards 
 explain what the effect of that will be. But, Sir, I by no 
 means assume it as certain thart these are the only colleges 
 in Ireland which misjht advantao-eouslv be ioined to the 
 University. We have not had the opportunity — it was 
 impossible in the privacy which these matters require — 
 of carrying on those communications with the parties able 
 to improve us, which would be necessary in order to enable 
 Parliament or to enable ourselTes to form a judgment on 
 the subject. When the Bill is placed in the hands of 
 members — which I Lave little doubt will be to-morrow 
 morning — it will be seen that the first operative clauses 
 enact that the Colleges enumerated in the Schedule to the 
 Bill shall become Colleges of the University of Dublin. 
 In turning to that Schedule it will be found that it is in 
 blank ; but I have already named four colleges which it is 
 our intention, if the parties are willing, to propose to insert 
 in it when we go into Committee on the measure. And in 
 the time that may elapse — possibly a month — before we go 
 into Committee, we shall probably receive further informa- 
 tion to enable us to judge whether it is desirable or not
 
 42 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 to lengthen the h*st. Of course, as I have stated, we do 
 not confine ourselves to the collegiate element, but also 
 allow persons to matriculate in the University without 
 belonging to any college at all. 
 Constitution of q^]^Q jjg^t change which I have to mention is probably 
 
 the new Govern- <-> i j 
 
 iiig Body of the ^j^g j^Qg^ important of all ; it is the constitution of the 
 
 University. ^ ' _ _ 
 
 new Governing Body of the University of Dublin. I have 
 shown that we strictly follow the analogy of English 
 legislation in substituting a new Governing Body for 
 the old one, and as a necessary step in the process of 
 emancipating — I do not use the word in any invidious 
 sense — or detaching the University. But in the case of 
 Oxford and Cambridge we had, already supplied to our 
 hands, a large, free, well-balanced and composed con- 
 stituency, to which we could at once intrust the election 
 of the new Governing Body. This, it is evident, is not 
 the case with respect to the University of Dublin. Were 
 the new Governing Body to be elected at once by the 
 Senate of the University of Dublin, it would represent one 
 influence and one influence only. We have, therefore, 
 determined to introduce an intermediate or provisional 
 period, and we shall not ask Parliament to place in the 
 hands of the Crown the nomination of the Council which is 
 to govern the University for that period, but, passing by 
 the Crown, shall ask the Legislature itself in the main 
 to nominate the list of persons for that purpose. I need 
 hardly say that we are not now prepared to bring that list 
 of persons before the House. It would be impossible for 
 us to do it. It was impossible for us to ask gentlemen of 
 eminence in Ireland to allow us to propose their names 
 until we were aware of the general view which they would 
 be disposed to take of the plans of the Government and 
 of the intentions of Parliament; and I have already ex- 
 plained the reasons why it has not been within our power 
 to hold any such communications. There is, however, one 
 point on which I wish not to be misunderstood, and that is
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 43 
 
 the principle on which we shall endeavour to make the 
 selection of names which we shall submit to Parliament. 
 There is indeed another class of members of the Council 
 to whom I shall presently refer, but I speak now of the 
 names we stall submit to Parliament of members whom I 
 propose to call the ordinary members of the Council. 
 They are 28 in number, and will form the principal and 
 therefore the predominating portion of the Council. These 
 names of ordinary members we shall endeavour to submit 
 to Parliament, not as representatives of religious bodies as 
 such, but on wider grounds. For we think that the lists 
 should be composed — without excluding any class or any 
 man on account of his religious profession — from among 
 all those persons in Ireland who, from their special know- 
 ledge or position, or from their experience, ability, cha- 
 racter, and influence, may be best qualified at once to 
 guard and to promote the work of academic education in 
 Ireland. That is the principle on which we wish to make 
 our choice, so far as we are concerned, and if we make it 
 amiss, it will be in the power of Parliament to correct it. 
 
 I will next. Sir, proceed to describe the manner in which 
 the Council is to be brought into action. It will be neces- 
 sary for it to perform certain preliminary functions before 
 the 1st of January, 1875. It will have to matriculate 
 students, to complete its number as I shall presently ex- 
 plain, and to make appointments of officers, so far as may 
 be needed, to prepare it for entering on its career of full 
 authority. On the 1st of January, 1875, it will take over 
 those powers of ordinary government which have hitherto 
 been exercised by the Provost and seven Senior Fellows 
 of Trinity College. It will have the power to admit new 
 Colleges over and above those named in the Act ; it will 
 have a general power of governing the University, and the 
 function of appointing professors and examiners ; and it is 
 only in respect to the method of its own election that it 
 will remain under an intermediate or provisional constitu-
 
 44 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 tion until it reaches the year 1885, when its constitution 
 will assume its permanent form. 
 
 The composition of the Council will be made complete 
 from the first. But I have not yet fully described tlie 
 mode of its appointment. There will be the twenty-ei<>lit 
 ordinary members to be named in the statute, as I have 
 already mentioned. During the ten years from 1875 to 
 1885 — the provisional period — there will be — probably 
 no great number — but still a certain number of vacancies 
 in the Body which it will be necessary for us to make 
 provision to fill up. For that limited period we propose 
 that the vacancies should be filled alternately by the 
 Crown and by co-optation on the part of the Council 
 itself. At the expiration of the ten years it will come 
 to its permanent constitution, and I will describe what 
 that, as we propose it, is to be ; and then the Committee 
 will be able to judge of the meaning of what I said 
 when I stated that our desire was that the University of 
 Dublin should be founded as far as possible on princij3les 
 of academic freedom. After ten years, we propose that 
 service on the Council shall be divided into four terms of 
 seven years each, four members retiring in each successive 
 year. There will therefore be four vacancies among the 
 twenty-eight ordinary members to be filled up every year, 
 and these four vacancies we propose shall be filled in 
 rotation — first, by the Crown ; secondly, by the Council 
 itself; thirdly, by the Professors of the University ; and 
 fourthly, by the Senate of the University. There is a sepa- 
 rate provision with regard to casual vacancies in the Council, 
 to which I need not now more particularly refer. The ordi- 
 nary members will constitute, according to the proposal of 
 the Government, the main stock or material of the Council 
 or Governing Body of the University ; but we have been 
 very desirous to see in what way that which we aim at 
 may meet the general wants and wishes of the peo[)le of 
 Ireland ; and, considering how desirable it is to prevent
 
 IRISH UN1VER>4ITY EDUCATION. 45 
 
 the action of too strong an unitarian principle — I have, 
 I believe, ample authority for using that word, which is 
 familiar in the present polities of Crermany — we have 
 been very anxious to discover in what manner it might be 
 possible to give to those bodies, which I have described 
 as Colleges of the University, a fair opportunity, not 
 of governing the action of the Council by any exertion of 
 influence or combination among themselves, but of being 
 heard in the Council, so that all views and desires with 
 respect to education might be fairly brought into open 
 discussion, and that right might have the best chance of 
 prevailing. It is evident we could not adopt the system 
 under which any one College should be allowed to send 
 to the Council a large number of members. It is also 
 evident that it would not be safe to adopt a system under 
 which Colleges, insignificant in magnitude, should be per- 
 mitted to claim a representation in the Council. What 
 we wish is this — that considerable Colleges, Avhich repre- 
 sent a large section of the community and of its educating 
 force, should have a fair opportunity of making their voice 
 heard in the Council. With regard to all those dangers 
 which would be likely to arise from too great a rigour of 
 unity in the examinations, or too narrow a choice in their 
 subjects and tone, though we introduce several other pro- 
 visions on the point into the Bill, it is to the freedom and 
 elasticity of the Council itself, I think, that we should look 
 as the main security against anything either inequitable 
 or unwise. We propose, then, that there shall be in the Number of 
 
 , , . „ members wliicb 
 
 Council from the outset — that is to say, from the 1st of each coiipge win 
 
 T -loi-r • 1 /> 1 n 11 ^^ entitled to 
 
 January, 18/ 5 — a certain number oi what we call colle- send to the 
 
 1 1 1 • (• 1 • • • 1 /-) -1 Council. 
 
 giate members, the basis or whose position in the Council 
 will be that any College of the University which has fifty 
 of its matriculated students, those students being in statu 
 pupillari matriculated also as members of the University, 
 may send one member to the Council, and if such college 
 have 150 students, then it may send two members. That
 
 46 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 would be tlie maximum ; aud this element, so far as we 
 can judge, while it ought to be and will be secondary in 
 point of numbers, would become very valuable and neces- 
 sary for the purpose to which I have just adverted. 
 memary^ conltt ^^^ Scuatc of the University of Dublin, as it now 
 *yency^of Dublin exists, docs uot, I may observe, discharge one of the living 
 and standing duties which a University is called upon to 
 perform. I mean the election of representatives to be sent 
 to Parliament. The election of representatives for the 
 Dublin University is mainly conducted by gentlemen who, 
 except for that purpose, do not belong to the University at 
 all — that is to say, who have ceased to belong to it, and 
 who are empowered to exercise with regard to it no other 
 Proposed con- functiou. What WO propose is that henceforward the 
 
 slituency. ^ •■■ , 
 
 Senate shall elect the representatives of the Universi^'. 
 The Senate will, of course, consist of all those who are 
 now in it, and of all the doctors and masters who may 
 hereafter have their names kept on it according to the 
 rules which may be in force. I need not add that care 
 will be taken that all those individuals who are now 
 intrusted with the privilege of the franchise will have their 
 rights preserved ; but for the future we should lay down 
 the principle that the members for the University ought 
 to be elected by the Senate as they now are by the Senate 
 of Cambridge and the Convocation of Oxford, and by them 
 alone. As to the duty of the Senate, it will be to discharge 
 the duties heretofore discharged by the old Senate of the 
 University, and to share in the election of the Council in 
 the manner I have described after the provisional period 
 has passed, and the permanent constitution comes into 
 play. 
 
 I hope it is now understood what our proposal is with 
 
 Graduates of regard to the constitution of the University. And now 
 
 and of tiie as to tliosc who are to compose it. I need not say that 
 
 sity will cany all all the members of Trinity College will remain where 
 
 academic privi- they are. With regard to the Queen's TTniversitv, we 
 
 Irges into the new 
 University.
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 47 
 
 should propose to absorb the whole of its members in the 
 Senate and the body of the University of Dublin, to- 
 gether with all the privileges which now attach to their 
 respective degrees or standing. There is a further pro- 
 vision which we have made in order to accelerate that 
 consummation which we all desii-e — namely, the rapid 
 introduction into the University of Dublin of those varied 
 elements that we hope will vindicate for it the title of a 
 truly national institution. There is no difKculty in the 
 matter as far as Trinity College and the Queen's Colleges 
 are concerned ; because their alumni have already under- 
 gone University education in a recognised institution. But 
 how are we to deal with Magee College and with any other oiifer'Tilh co*i-^ 
 Eoman Catholic Colleges which have not anv academic ''?,?. '°. ^^ f^' 
 
 ^ *' uiitxpfl into iiiG 
 
 status in the eye of the State, and which, therefore, cannot u,"iver^t "'*' ° on 
 be treated by this Bill as if thev had been heretofore ??'''"'" '^°^^'' 
 possessed of this advantage ? In our opinion it would be 
 a great hardship on those Colleges, if their alumni were 
 to be absolutely excluded from the Dublin University. 
 We have, however, only a limited power in the matter, 
 and what we propose in their favour is a temporary pro- 
 vision to the effect that during the first three years after 
 January, 1875, the University may, if it shall think fit, 
 introduce into it, subject to examination, persons who 
 have not been at any University, or College of an Uni- 
 versity, but who shall be certified to have resided for any 
 given time as students of any College which is hence- 
 forward to belong to the University, and that an ari-ange- 
 ment shall be made to give to such persons the advantage 
 of the Terms which they shall have already kept. 
 
 I shall now proceed to detail the securities for con- securities foi- 
 
 , .,-, - .p. , .. „ conscience in tlie 
 
 science that will be taken m irammg the constitution oi new university. 
 the renovated University. The Committee will have 
 gathered from what I have said that this University is to 
 be a teachiog as well as an examining University ; but it 
 is to teach under conditions in some respects limited. It
 
 48 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION, 
 
 can have no chair in theology ; and we have arrived at 
 the conclusion that the most safe and prudent course we 
 can adopt is to preclude the University from the esta- 
 blishment of chairs in two other subjects, which, how- 
 ever important in themselves in an educational point of 
 view, would be likely to give rise to hopeless contention ; 
 and were we to propose that the new University should 
 be at liberty to establish chairs in respect of them, we 
 should be running the most fatal risk of introducing mis- 
 giving and mistrust, which might be fatal, with regard to 
 the rights of conscience in the new University. The two 
 subjects to which I refer are philosophy and modern 
 history. {Laughter and ironical cheers.) I do not mean 
 that the study of natural science is to be omitted from 
 the list of chairs, I only refer to that of moral and meta- 
 physical philosophy. (Hear, hear.) We feel that our 
 asking for the foundation of chairs in these subjects 
 would be impossible in the case of a mixed University, 
 unless we gave up all hope of obtaining for that Uni- 
 versity the general confidence of the Irish people. And 
 permit me to say that by excluding theology from the 
 University we do very little if in that University, under 
 the circumstances of the present day, we appoint authorised 
 teachers in certain branches of philosophy, because all 
 the deepest questions of religious belief are at this moment 
 contested, partly, indeed, within the theological precinct, 
 but even more so in the domain of ethics, and especially 
 of metaphysics. The House may or may not overrule the 
 Government in this matter ; but, at any rate, that is the 
 conclusion at whicb we have arrived with reference to this 
 question. 
 
 There is another important security for the rights of 
 conscience with respect to the same subjects which I will 
 mention to the House. We propose that no one shall be 
 examined for his degree in modern history or philosophy, 
 as I have defined it. except with his own free will. We
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 4i» 
 
 do not tliiuk it necessary to exclude these subjects iioiii 
 the examination, provided tlie submission to examina- 
 tion in them is voluntary. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 As I have said already, the University is to be a 
 teaching University ; but we propose to extend the 
 voluntary principle still further, and to provide that 
 as a rule no attendance upon the lectures of the Uni- 
 versity Professors shall be comj)ulsori!y required from 
 the students. We intend to trust to the excellence of the 
 instruction which will be given, and to the vast advan- 
 tages the University will enjoy from being placed in the 
 metropolis of Ireland for the attraction of students to it ; 
 but we propose to make the attendance upon the lectures 
 of its Professors voluntary. 
 
 We propose, also, to exclude the two subjects I have 
 lately named from the examinations for the emoluments 
 of the University. (Hear, hear.) I'rom tlie examinations 
 for honours we do not propose to exclude them, and for this 
 reason. It is perfectly practicable to adopt the system 
 of a positive standard as regards examiEations even for 
 honours, and you may bring uj) to that standard any 
 number of men who show themselves competent to reach 
 it ; but as regards emoluments the competition must be 
 between man and man ; what one gains the other must 
 lose, and therefore we think it the best and safest method 
 of managing these emoluments to provide tliat these men 
 should meet upon a common ground upon which all can 
 equally consent to be examined. There are some other 
 provisions of the same kind in the Bill, because I need 
 not say that these securities for conscience are among the 
 most important safeguards of the Bill, and unless they are 
 effective we cannot expect the Bill to work, neither should 
 we desire it to be accepted by the House. Among these, 
 we have provided a clause somewhat analogous to one 
 which appears in the Education Act with reference to the 
 punishment of inasters who persistently offend against 
 
 E
 
 The contribu- 
 
 50 lEISH UN'IVEESITY EDUCATION. 
 
 the conscientious scruples of the children whose education 
 they conduct. We provide that a teacher in the Univer- 
 sity may be punished or reprimanded ii' he wilfully offends 
 the conscientious scruples of those whom he instructs in 
 the exercise of his office. But I am bound to say that the 
 main security for the rights of conscience on which we rely 
 is such a representation of all parties, within moderate 
 and safe limits, in the body of the Council, as can be 
 usefully and benefically introduced into its constitution. 
 The next and the last of the more difficult subjects I 
 wilrhJvetomtke ^^^^^^ huxe to lay before you is that which relates to the 
 ments'^of th^new coutribution which Trinity College will have to make to 
 University. ^]jg XJuiversity of Dublin. It appeared to us in reference 
 to this subject that one principle was absolute, and could 
 not be made the subject of discussion in this House. 
 That was the principle that the present office bearers and 
 teachers in Trinity College should not be made losers by 
 the direct operation of the Act. (Hear, hear.) The charge 
 resulting from the adoption of this principle will probably 
 amount on a rough estimate to about one half of the entire 
 value of the property of the College. If this mode of pro- 
 ceeding should be adopted for giving security to their in- 
 terests we shall propose that the residue of the property of 
 the College shall be divided into two moieties, one of which 
 shall pass to the new University, and tlie other shall 
 remain the property of the College. The proposition will 
 of course leave untouched the income derived by the 
 College from voluntary payments. This is a principle on 
 which we have already acted to some extent in England ; 
 but at present we have not carried it out so far as will, I 
 apprehend, be thought necessary in future. A Commis- 
 sion is at jDresent sitting for the purpose of examining into 
 the property of the Universities and Colleges in England, 
 and theie cannot be a doubt, from such knowledge of 
 opinions as I possess, that when that Commission reports, 
 it will be found necessary, after making the most liberal
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 51 
 
 provision for the wants of the Colleges themselves, that 
 considerable sums, especially in Cambridge, where the 
 principle has as yet been applied only to a very limited 
 extent, will be available for the requirements of the Uni- 
 versity. It is only foir that, as the degrees conferred by 
 the Universities bring people to the Colleges, the latter 
 should contribute to the support of the former. And it 
 will especially be fair to adopt this principle with regard 
 to Trinity College, seeing tbat it has received all its 
 endowments not simply for performing the duties and 
 functions of a College but also that it might be mater 
 universitatis, that its means might be available for an 
 University. The property of Trinity College is estimated 
 in round numbers at 55,000?. a year. Between an increase 
 in the amount of the rents and the interest of a large sura 
 of money which it will receive on account of its ecclesias- 
 tical advowsons it will immediately have an increment 
 of 7000Z. or 8000Z. a year. The voluntary payments 
 amount to about 23,000?. a year, making iu all 86,000?. a 
 year prospectively, and 78,000?. at present. Its expenses 
 are stated at 66,000?. a year and some hundreds, and there 
 is a surplus of receipts above expenditure of 11,600?. 
 Under these circumstances what we propose to do I will 
 now explain. That mode of proceeding to which I lately 
 referred, namely, the mode of charging the property 
 with the vested interests and providing for a division of 
 the ultimate residue — although it proceeds upon an intel- 
 ligible principle, yet in practice would be operose, slow, 
 and perhaps vexatious as to details. It would give room 
 for differences of opinion. We have therefore placed a 
 provision for giving effect to that proceeding only in a 
 Schedule to the Bill. In the Bill itself we have introduced 
 provisions of a very simple character, to this effect — that 
 upon the property of Trinity College there shall be laid a 
 charge of 12,000?. a year, to be redeemed within 14 years, 
 and at 25 years' purchase. I have already stated that the 
 
 E 2
 
 52 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 surplus revenue over its expenditure is more than 11,000Z. ; 
 and 12,000Z. a year, deducted from 78,000Z., which appears 
 to be the total receipt, would leave 66,000?., or, deducted 
 from 55,000Z. a year, the present estimated property of 
 Trinity College, it would leave 43,000?. a year, with an 
 immediate impending increment of 7000Z. or 8000?., 
 making an endowment from these sources equivalent to 
 about 50,000Z. a year.* In truth, after making the charge 
 of contribution which we propose to take for the benefit 
 of the University, Trinity College would remain perhaps 
 the wealtliiest College in existence in Christendom. At 
 any rate I am aware of only one rival — namely, Trinity 
 College, Cambridge, which educates and teaches nearly 
 the same number as are educated and taught in Trinity 
 College, Dublin. Undoubtedly there are other influences 
 .that would act on Trinity College in connexion with this 
 Bill. It will lose its profits from degrees, which are stated 
 at 2300?, per annum. But there are various provisions in 
 the Bill whicli would enable Trinity College to economise 
 its operations, and I must say, without fear of offence, 
 that there are great and needful economies to be effected 
 in Trinity College itself. We have introduced into this 
 Bill a provision intended to facilitate the transfer in certain 
 cases of Trinity College Professors to University Chairs. 
 There may be cases in which Trinity College, as di^;- 
 
 * In this statement is included the vahie (taken at about .5700Z.) of the 
 College, Porch, and Buildings, and of (he Provost's House. To he minutely 
 correct, this point would require a further examination. The property 
 consists, I apprehend (1) of land having value, but used for ornament or 
 recreation ; (2) of buildings yielding actual income in rent ; (3) of buildings 
 occupied so as to represent money's worth ; (4) of buildings auxiliary to 
 the functions of the College, and thus to the production of the income from 
 vohmtary sources. In delivering the statement it escaped my memory to 
 deduct from the future income of the College the sums it will part witli on 
 account of the endowments of the teachers in the Theological Faculty. 
 In this case it will, however (for the most part), be relieved of a permanent 
 charge and duty at tlie moderate price of fifteen years' purchase. It will 
 be charged with a sum of 15.000/., representing, at 4 per cent., 600/. a 
 year : but I consider that the bonowing provisions contained in the Bill 
 will confer more than a countervailing pecuniary 1 enotit. — W. E. G.
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION, iJO 
 
 charging the duties of an University, had to incur the 
 expense of maintaining a very large and complete staff of 
 Chairs which may not, and where we think it might be 
 for the convenience and advantage of all parties that in 
 some of those instances Trinity College might make over 
 its Professors to the University, and with its Professors the 
 charge of maintaining them. These are the leading pro- 
 visions, which I think contain the essential outline of the 
 plan, so far as Trinity College is concerned. 
 
 I will now point out, in a very few words, what would 
 be the position of the University according to our propo- 
 sition with respect to what it will require in order to full 
 efficiency, and with respect to the sources from which the 
 money is to be had. We think this University of Dublin, 
 if it is to be the great national University of Ireland in 
 accordance with its original design, should be liberally 
 supplied — first, with the means of teaching ; and, secondly, 
 with the means of encouraging and rewarding study. We 
 have not inserted in the Bill any of the provisions which 
 I am now going to sketch, but it is right that I should 
 state to the House what our views are, because it may be 
 thought expedient when we come to the Committee on 
 the Bill actually to determine the amount of the property 
 which shall be placed at the disposal of the University 
 of Dublin. We think there might be ten fellowships, of of^'rewwds'^'for 
 200Z. a year each, given annually by way of reward, and ^tudy. 
 tenable for five years, which, for fifty fellowships in all, 
 would entail a charge of 10,000?. We think there 
 might be 25 annual exhibitions of 50Z. each, tenable for 
 four years, which would entail a total charge, when they 
 were in full operation, of 6000Z. We think there might 
 be 100 bursaries a year of 25?. each, tenable for four 
 years, creating an annual charge of 2500?. or in the whole 
 10,000?. These bursaries would be of the greatest ad- 
 vantage in stimulating the youth of Ireland ; and to 
 establish them would be to do something analogous to
 
 54 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 that which has been done with such great advantage by 
 private benefactors in Scotland for the encouragement 
 of study in the Scotch Universities. These grants for the 
 encouragement and reward of study would in the whole 
 amount to 25,000?. a year. The charge for the professors' 
 chairs might possibly be from 15,000Z. to 20,0007. a year 
 more, which might create a charge of 45,000Z. a year. The 
 other charges would be those for examinations, for the 
 ordinary government of the University, and for the build- 
 ings which would be necessary for lecturing and teaching 
 purposes. 12,000Z. a year, as I have said, is the con- 
 tribution of Trinity College to University purposes from 
 the fulfilment of which it is to be relieved. 10,0007. a 
 year is the equivalent, or very nearly, of what the Con- 
 solidated Fund now pays for Galway College and the 
 Queen's University. We conceive that a further sum of 
 60007. a year may be obtained for the University by 
 means of fees on a very moderate scale. Our view is that 
 for the remainder of the money required for the purposes 
 of the University we may most properly and beneficially 
 resort to the surplus of the ecclesiastical property of 
 Ireland — (laughter, and Sear, hear). It will be re- 
 membered that this surplus is to be made available for 
 the national wants of Ireland. The present state of things 
 with regard to it is this. The property of the Irish Church 
 was estimated at 16,000,0007. The amount charged upon 
 it from all sources in connection with the liquidation of the 
 Maynooth Grant, the liquidation of the Regium Donum, 
 and all the rest was taken at 11,000,0007., and the surplus 
 at 5,000,0007. I am told that no more precise estimate 
 can be given at this date. Parliament has legislatively 
 declared that that surplus shall be mainly, but it has 
 not said that it shall be exclusively, devoted to the relief 
 of corporal wants and necessities. If that devotion to 
 corporal Avants and necessities is not to be exclusive, I 
 know v.o more just purpose to which the residue could be
 
 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 55 
 
 applied tliau in aiding the funds of the new University. 
 Jn our opinion it would be most just to make a call upon 
 a portion, though it need only a very limited portion, of 
 tlje surplus ecclesiastical property of Ireland. (Hear, 
 hear.) 
 
 Tliere are only two other points that I have to name 
 in the very lengthened statement which I am inflicting 
 upon the House. (Cheers.) We do not propose to in- 
 troduce into this Bill any plan for the internal reform of The Bin con- 
 
 •' ' 1 • 1 t'^ius no plan for 
 
 Trinity Colleoe. So far as we are concerned, we wish the internal re- 
 
 ■' ° form of Trinity 
 
 to place in the Governing Body of Trinity the same con- couege. 
 fidence that they will effect, or suggest, all necessary 
 reforms as has been placed in the Governing Bodies of 
 the English Colleges. We propose to relieve it from its 
 absolute dependence upon the Crown ; and to place it 
 upon the same footing as that on which the Colleges of 
 Oxford and Cambridge now stand — namely, the footing 
 on which they are authorised to prepare schemes for the 
 regulation of their own government, which schemes, when 
 they have gone through the ordeal of being passed by the 
 Queen in Council, may have the force of law. As I am 
 reminded by my right hon. friend (Mr. Cardwell), we have 
 of course framed clauses for the purpose of at once opening 
 the offices and emoluments of Trinity College, without any 
 religious test. I took this matter so much for granted 
 that I had almost omitted to mention it. 
 
 I have thus ventured to sketch the measure we propose 
 for establishing a free, if I may not say an emancipated, 
 University of Dublin. Let me say a word or two now as Future position 
 
 . „ . . n 1 /-( n • 1 i TT • 'J. ^^ the Colleges in 
 
 to the lutnre position ot the Colleges in that University, the new univer- 
 
 Trinity College, as I have shown, will undoubtedly no 
 
 longer have the exclusive power of granting degrees, 
 
 though it must always largely influence by its intrinsic 
 
 weight the movements of the University. It will have 
 
 a certain diminution of income by the contribution we 
 
 shall take from it ; and it may, I grant, with respect
 
 56 IRISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 especially to its non-resident students, undergo a certain 
 diminution in numbers, and thus the amount of its volun- 
 tary payments. But what will it have upon the other 
 side ? In the first place, it will have, as I, hope, a ter- 
 mination to controversy — at least to all political contro- 
 versy. It will remain, as I trust, in its outward dwelling 
 unchanged. There will be nothing to break the course 
 of its traditions. Long — I trust for generations and for 
 ages — it will continue to dispense, more unrestrainedly 
 than ever, the blessings of a liberal culture. It will enjoy 
 self-governing powers, subject only to a reasonable con- 
 trol, and free, I think, from all apprehension of vexatious 
 interference. It will undoubtedly receive some new form 
 of constitution, in which the important and valuable 
 Working Body of Trinity College will exercise far more 
 power than it exercises now, which, indeed, is only moral 
 power, whereas the actual power of the actual Teaching 
 Body of Trinity College, if I understand aright, is none 
 whatever. The present University statutes and the exist- 
 ing system of examination in Trinity College will neces- 
 sarily form the starting-point for the proceedings of 
 Dublin University, and it will be for the Council of Dublin 
 University to consider how far these may require either 
 expansion or modification. Trinity College will have the 
 means of being heard in the Council, because there will 
 be more, many more than 150 of its members — of the 
 matriculated students of Trinity College — who will be 
 members of Dublin University ; and it must therefore have 
 the power of sending two members to the Council. Its 
 students will have access to a large number of additional 
 emoluments. But here arises a question. Is it fair that 
 those who already possess the rich emoluments of Trinity 
 College should have free access to the emoluments of the 
 University of Dublin, such as I have sketched them ? Tlie 
 fair rule, as we think, will be this : — In our opinion it 
 would not be right or wise to enact any exclusion of any
 
 lEISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 57 
 
 person belonging to the University from competition for 
 
 the emoluments of the University in respect to his be- couege ami 
 
 ■, . -iiii •!! T 1 University 
 
 longmo' to any particular body, however richly endowed: emoluments cau- 
 
 1, + ^ -J ^1 X ^ lA PIT ' not be held toge- 
 
 but we propose to provide that no holder of public aca- ther;the jianioi 
 
 1 -11 /-Ti 1 1- ,. . Fellows of Trinity 
 
 demical emoluments in Ireland — and in the interpretation coiiege excepted, 
 clause we have defined what we mean by j)ublic academical 
 emoluments — sliall hold any one of the emoluments, encou- 
 ragements or rewards of the new University, without sur- 
 rendering the prior academic emoluments which he holds. 
 The effect will be that a member of Trinity College will 
 have everything thrown open to him; but he must 
 not hold both his own and the University emoluments. 
 He must take his choice, and I suppose he will, which- 
 ever it may be, take the best. This limitation of plurali- 
 ties, so to call them, has referenee to emoluments of 
 encouragement and reward, not to teaching offices. For 
 example, (A laugh.) With regard to the Junior Fellows 
 of Trinity College, there will be no such limitation, for it 
 would be absurd to apply the rule to a Junior Fellow 
 receiving only 40Z. a year — and, I believe, 40?. Irish {a 
 laugh) from his Fellowship, and the rest of his income 
 from his labour. Trinity College will have, upon the 
 whole, access to a large number of academic emoluments ; 
 and, in common with every other College in Dublin, and 
 especially with the Roman Catholic University College, 
 it will enjoy one, as I think, very great advantage to which 
 I have^ not yet referred. The University will place at 
 its doors, not an absolutely complete, but a nearly com- 
 plete, staff of professional chairs. These chairs will, I 
 hope, be held with tolerably liberal remuneration by men 
 of high reputation, and it will be in the power either of 
 Trinity College, or of the Roman Catholic College, or of 
 any College, to consider whether it shall be at the expense 
 of maintaining chairs, which may in certain cases entail 
 a corresponding charge, heavy in proportion to their im- 
 portance; or whether it shall avail itself, without any 
 
 F
 
 58 IRISH UNITEESITY EDUCATION. 
 
 charge at all beyond a moderate fee, of lectures which 
 will be delivered at its doors. All these appear to me to' 
 be important compensating considerations, so far as Trinity 
 College is concerned. 
 Position of Now, what will be the position of voluntary Colleges? 
 leges. ■ " and I hope they may somewhat multiply, though a Eoman 
 Catholic College is the only one actually existing in 
 Dublin, They will enjoy an entire freedom as to internal 
 government. With respect to ecclesiastical and lay power, 
 I submit that in those voluntary institutions the parties 
 must settle this question among themselves. (Sear, hear.) 
 If it passes theii- wisdom to do it, it passes our wisdom too. 
 All we can do is to give them an open career and fair 
 play ; and I think it will be seen that the access to 
 University degrees wUl henceforth be perfectly free 
 to the members of these Colleges. Together with free 
 access to University degrees, there will be free access to 
 University emoluments upon a large scale for them and 
 for all Ireland. If their numbers entitle them to send 
 one, or possibly in some rare case, two members to the 
 Council, they will have the power to make their view, 
 whatever it may be, known in the Council, and they will, 
 if in Dublin, have the same power to economize their own 
 resources to whatever extent they may think fit by making 
 caS^ouc c^iTege ^^^ ^f the chairs of the University. If more than this be 
 S ^o^^pia^ asked— if it be said " this is not establishing the equality 
 ^Sy*^^''°" °^ ^^^ ^'^'^^ to establish between the Roman Catholics and 
 Trinity College " — my answer is plain. It is that Trinity 
 College is a public institution. It has been, and it will 
 remain, under a certain control by the Crown and by 
 Parliament. But more than that, it is an institution 
 which (although I admit the operation of this change 
 must be very slow) has voluntarily renounced its deno- 
 minational safeguards, and which proposes to make the 
 whole of its emoluments and offices accessible to all 
 Irishmen who may be its members, entirely irrespective of
 
 IKISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 59 
 
 religious distinctions. (Hear.) Parliament has adopted 
 for many years in its policy the principle that these are 
 the Colleges to which alone public endowments shall be 
 given. And if I am told, on the other hand, that Trinity 
 College has a great start in the race, while among Roman 
 Catholics, and to a certain extent among Presbyterians, 
 almost everything has still to be organized, I admit the 
 fact ; but I know of no cure save one — to strip Trinity 
 College bare of its estates and to destroy its whole 
 machinery. Such a proceeding would really be the crea- 
 tion of solitude in order to call it peace. (Hear, hear.) 
 But it is a remedy which has never been tolerated or even 
 heard of, and never would be tolerated or (I hope) heard 
 of, within the walls of the British Parliament. (Hear, hear.) 
 8ir, I feel that the House of Commons must look 
 forward to the end of this speech with much the same 
 feeling as it generally looks forward to the end of the 
 Session — (laughter), — and that the sense of relief when it 
 arrives will be very much the same. I have very few 
 words more to speak. This is an important — I would 
 almost say, considering the many classes it concerns and 
 the many topics it involves, it is almost a solemn subject ; 
 solemn from the issues which depend upon it. We have 
 approached it with the desire to soothe and not exasperate. 
 I hope that in the lengthened address I have delivered to 
 the House I have not said anything that can offend. 
 (Hear, liear ; from hoth sides of the House.) If I have 
 been so unfortunate, it is entirely contrary to my in- 
 tention and my honest wish. (Hear, hear.) We, Sir, 
 have done our best. We have not spared labour and appli- 
 cation in the preparation of this certainly complicated, 
 and, I venture to hope, also comprehensive, plan. We 
 have sought to provide a complete remedy for what we 
 thought, and for what we have long marked and held up 
 to public attention as a palpable grievance — a grievance 
 of conscience. But we have not thought that, in removing 
 that grievance, we were discharging either the whole or
 
 GO lEISH UNIVERSITY EDUCATION. 
 
 the main part of our duty. It is one thing to clear away 
 obstructions from the ground ; it is anotlier to raise the 
 fabric. And the fabric which we seek to raise is a 
 substantive, organized system, under which all the sons of 
 Ireland, be their professions, be their opinions what they 
 may, may freely meet in their own ancient, noble, historic 
 University for the advancement of learning in that 
 country. The removal of grievance is the negative por- 
 tion of the project ; the substantive and positive part of 
 it, academic reform. We do not ask the House to embark 
 upon a scheme which can be described as one of mere 
 innovation. We ask you now to give to Ireland that 
 which has been long desired, which has been often at- 
 tempted, but which has never been attained ; and we ask 
 you to give it to Ireland, in founding yourselves upon 
 the principles on which you have already acted in the 
 Universities of England. We commit the plan to the 
 prudence and the patriotism of this House, which we have 
 so often experienced, and in which the country places, as 
 we well know, an entire confidence. I will not lay stress 
 upon the evils which will flow from its failure, from its 
 rejection, in prolonging and embittering the controversies 
 which have for many, for too many years been suffered 
 to exist. I w^ould rather dwell upon a more pleasing- 
 prospect — upon my hope, even upon my belief, that this 
 plan in its essential features may meet wdth the approval 
 of the House and of the country. At any rate, I am 
 convinced that if it be your pleasure to adopt it, you 
 will by its means enable Irishmen to raise their country 
 to a height in the sphere of human culture such as will 
 be worthy of the genius of the people, and such as may, 
 perhaps, emulate those oldest, and possibly best, tradi- 
 tions of her history upon which Ireland still so fondly 
 dwells. {The right hon. gentleman resumed his seat amid 
 loud cheers.) 
 
 London: Primed by WttLiAM Clowes and Sons, Stamford Street.
 
 
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